Shakugan no Shana II - Episode 15 Discussion / Poll

[Pellissier]

Welcome to the discussion thread for Shakugan no Shana II, Episode 15.

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[Tokkan]

I watched the RAW because i felt like it. I understood a little, but I'm going to rewatch it when it's fansubbed in a couple of days. I liked this episode, and I can't wait to see what happens next. (I'm blatantly trying to be vague so I don't give away any spoilers)

I'll rate it for real when I understand what they're saying, lol. XD

... It hasn't even aired yet. And it won't for another 8 hours or so.

I don't even care if this post and yours get deleted, you're posting blatantly false information.

[Spectacular_Insanity]

... It hasn't even aired yet. And it won't for another 8 hours or so.

I don't even care if this post and yours get deleted, you're posting blatantly false information.

I don't get it, but I deleted my post. Happy now? (time difference you know)

[Kinny Riddle]

I'm lost for words.

Where should I start?

Confusing, I guess, would be the first word.

The truth about Konoe Fumina is out, though I'll spoiler tag this just to be safe.


As some of you may have guessed already, Konoe is a sleeper clone of Hecate, one of her functions is to secretly collect memories from Yuji so that they don't get lost again. :cool:

Her other major function is to stop Pheles from extracting the Reiji Maigo and Margery from extracting Silver from Yuji.

Once her mission is complete, she merges back with the real Hecate, who has been praying in Seireiden all along.


There seems to be an armour that resembles that of Silver's in Seireiden, wonder what that's all about.

I never knew Hecate can hold out her own against Shana, shooting her own fireball to counter Shana's. Though it's all anime-original, not complaining about the battle itself.

Hecate retreats after stuffing Silver back inside Yuji, Johann then temporarily takes control of Yuji's body (leading to more confusion for the viewer) so that he could convey something very important to Pheles.

(Man, Pheles is so cute when she's fawning over Johann. :love: )

Anyway, Pheles decides to leave Yuji alone after hearing what Johann had to say, but won't reveal what it was. Before leaving, she leaves a cross-shaped Hougu for Yoshida.

With Konoe out of the way, maybe the story can get back on the novel side of things.

[Proto]

Part 1 is out in nico and... it is a blast, a blast I tell you


- The episode starts when it left off last episode. A silver armor hand coming out of Yuuji and piercing through Pheles. Despite this Pheles still tries to approach Yuuji and take Johan out, however Wilhelmina restrains her and forces her to land

- Meanwhile, Margery starts a restriction spell that seems designed to restrain the arm and forcefully taking him out. This time around she is much more calm and composed, and she's trying to take out silver without harming Yuuji. She tells Shana to cooperate.

- Meanwhile we see shots of the people on the festival, and of Tanaka freaking out while watching an immobilized Ogata in front of him. We also see Konoe freely walking around with his butler and approaching the place of the battle

-Meanwhile at the Balle Masque HQ... Dantalion and the gargoyle we saw back at ep 3 observe a reaction in an armor body that they have inside of a tube. They wonder if Pheles have something to do with this, and worry about the consequences. Meanwhile The Arbiter of inverse reasoning and The ultimate throne approach the scene and comment on how there is no mistake about it, it seems to be awakening, which Hecate confirms.

- Back at the battle scene we see Konoe finally reaching the rooftop. It seems that her hand chain is a seal linked to a chain that the arbiter of reverse reasoning herself had. After the seal brokjes on the two of them, we see them ascending and interfering with Margery's spell. Konoe takes out a scepter, breaks through the spell and it would seem like she is stuffing back the silver into Yuuji, all the while a surprise attack from the skies (consisting on a bunch of falling cubes :heh:) force Margery and Shana to temporary step back, being unable to help Yuuji. The first part ends with Hecate entering the scene and standing in front of Konoe.



whhops, Kinny beat me to it. Aw well :heh:
edit2: not to mention that he already saw part 2. /me points a gun at Kinny. Spit out your secret :p

[cnnydz]

just to explain a few things
1.hecate=king of guze ( so very powerful)
2.falling cubes = magnesia (fecor's spell)
3.this fight is not anime original(a lot of details was changed though)
4.silver is not physically in yuji (still in bal masque), the hand was "warped" though boukun I (or II?) in the reiji maigo
just in case you don't know, fecor is that strange looking guy flying around

[DX HBK]

Geez, Hecate still wants Yuji's memories?! Damn, she doesn't give up on that. At least now I see Hecate's got some combat skill.

Well, it was good while it lasted nearly half the season. (Konoe)

Think the cross that Pheles gave to Yoshida might indicate a sense of forebodance over the horizon. Is it actually a Hougu?

[ThoHell]

This episode is a lot more to my taste! This episode for sure went to Yuji and Shana for their moment. Good from beginning to end.....best episode by far. But Yuji is super annoying now, went from somewhat strong resolve person (his resolve was still growing) to completely useless and screaming and crying before anything happens. Preview for the next episode seems like it's going to go back to the boring phase....

Looks like Pheles is starting to feel sorry for Yoshida.

And Johan comepletely kicks ass, super powerful, he couldn't even be touched. Pheles is super powerful too but completely emotionally unstable.

[piku]

overall very satisfactory on this episode. follow the original story, although it seems too hurry. nice fighting, enough description in the story (and i think the rest mystery will be explain in next episode). drawing style is above average, generally good use of special visual effect and BGM.

the 'use' of konoe san was one of my big concern because i really don't want JC make a character just for MOE and viewer's service but no relation on the main story. in this episode, the 'twins' hecate and konoe san is interesting try, hecate try to collect memories from konoe san is some how related to S1 and i guess it may be a hint of the later story, may be an original ending of S2 just like S1 (especially the original novel has a long way to go before its end) .

battel sence is not so smooth but really appreciate on magnesia and aster (star). very exciting, and it shows hecate and fecor is not that common guys. a clap to the strom of pheles and johan too.

one of a reason i love this pieces is character's love and emotional description. in this episode, a good kiss of pheles and johan, and the description on shana, wilhelmina, kazumi and tanaka is just enough for explaining their action, although it can be better.

pheles that meet johan and shana with tears are stunning. also for yuri's wilhelmina ;p

[teachopvutru]

pheles that meet johan and shana with tears are stunning. also for yuri's wilhelmina ;p

What!? Another Margery x Wilhelmina scene again? :heh: (unless I misinterpreted or misread what you wrote)

Anyway, looking forward to this episode. Btw, what do you say about this episode in comparison to episode 13?

[Sinestra]

DAMN IT im usually patient and wait for subs but not this one im watching the RAW i dont care if my japanese is about as good as a pile of dung. Kinny thanks for the break down and congrats on being the first.

[Samanosuke]

I wonder something .
If Johann had made a complete comeback/takeover , what would Shana have done ?
When she flew to find Yuuji I almost had the impression that she was going to attack Johann to get back Yuuji .

Other than that i am a bit disappointed that He hasn't come out yet , I mean we are passed half of the series , when does He plan on coming out ?

[Kaisos Erranon]

I wonder something .
If Johann had made a complete comeback/takeover , what would Shana have done ?
When she flew to find Yuuji I almost had the impression that she was going to attack Johann to get back Yuuji .

Other than that i am a bit disappointed that He hasn't come out yet , I mean we are passed half of the series , when does He plan on coming out ?

At the end?

[Samanosuke]

At the end?

cliffhanger ending for the win ?
yeah ...I am afraid I can see that one coming .
Then we'll have to wait another year for season 3 . ;_;

[serenade_beta]

UwaaaaahhhH!!!! *sob* Fumina's gone now!! Uwahh!! What a cruel and unbeneficial trade for me!
Fumina-shows all kinds of expressions; wears different clothes
Hecate-always "-_-" and only has that mage outfit
The butler's gone too! He never made many appearances, but still...!
*sob*

Putting my feelings for them aside for a moment:

Wow, that was a massacre. Just that unlike the school, we don't get to see any dying.
Hecate and Fecor prove to be really strong, with Hecate's beams (she has to say "Astel yo" everytime...) and Fecor's magnesia (or is it magnesium?). In the end, Fumina and Jiiya were just "Itsuwari no Utsuwa" (Vessel of Falsehood)... Fecor himself looks wimpy despite his strength.
I was also really startled to see Johann popping up. But he soon disappeared by giving himself to Pheles.
Looks like Silver's body is with Bel Peol while it can materialize out of Yuuji, causing the body to disappear at where it comes out (arm pops out of Yuuji, arm from body disappears). But Hecate used her staff to seal it up.

-Seems like Tanaka has been traumatized by that incident...
-Seems like Kazumi feels even more distant from Yuuji

Preview: "Undelivered Feelings" (tsuki can mean to follow, but perhaps undelivered is a good way to translate it... "Feelings that won't follow", "Feelings that are not given"... Hmm...); Festival ends, Kazumi's feelings; everyone forgets about Fumika...

...
I won't forget!! Uwahhh! *sob*

Rating=10 (awesome episode) - 3 (Fumina)=7

[Deathkillz]

FINALLY! We've waited so long ;___;
Is it me or has Shana been so nerfed that she now only acts as a meat shield? She couldn't even land a hit on anything at all but those stupid cubes (and she got owned by them! :twitch:).

I just knew that the imposter hecate is actually the real hecate, parts of her still count :p So she was too lazy to create her own memories so she had her clone do it for her :rolleyes:

The winged dude is haxx...now if only he looked the part of being GAR. Did they even fix the crushed buildings at the end using yuji or did they just leave it be -__-

I am actually quite glad to see margery keeping under control even after silver san shows up. So close yet so far *shakes angry fist at hecate*

Johan sacrifices himself and pheles is still in denial. I duno where to pity or empthasise with her.

Action was top notch, but if only the good guys didn't get embarrassed so much >_<

[cnnydz]

FINALLY! We've waited so long ;___;
Is it me or has Shana been so nerfed that she now only acts as a meat shield? She couldn't even land a hit on anything at all but those stupid cubes (and she got owned by them! :twitch:).

I just knew that the imposter hecate is actually the real hecate, parts of her still count :p So she was too lazy to create her own memories so she had her clone do it for her :rolleyes:

The winged dude is haxx...now if only he looked the part of being GAR. Did they even fix the crushed buildings at the end using yuji or did they just leave it be -__-

I am actually quite glad to see margery keeping under control even after silver san shows up. So close yet so far *shakes angry fist at hecate*

Johan sacrifices himself and pheles is still in denial. I duno where to pity or empthasise with her.

Action was top notch, but if only the good guys didn't get embarrassed so much >_<

fecor's magnesia (falling cubes) is considered to be the strongest defense spell, and himself is a guze no ou. so naturally he is extremely strong , but he looks and acts a bit wimpy.
hecate's staff = Trigon

[Machina]

I am actually quite glad to see margery keeping under control even after silver san shows up. So close yet so far *shakes angry fist at hecate*



Damn you, Hecate i_i

[lua thien]

I didn't catch what Hecate said when she aimed her staff at Yuji after absorbing Konoe.

About time she resumed her antagonist role.

[Tormenk]

just to explain a few things
1.hecate=king of guze ( so very powerful)
2.falling cubes = magnesia (fecor's spell)
3.this fight is not anime original(a lot of details was changed though)
4.silver is not physically in yuji (still in bal masque), the hand was "warped" though boukun I (or II?) in the reiji maigo
just in case you don't know, fecor is that strange looking guy flying around

So Silver was in Bal Masque all along. But how does that explain Konoe's purpose of preventing extraction of Silver from within Yuuji then, if I'm not mistaken? :confused:

Awesome episode overall but Pheles is gone now. :(

[cnnydz]

So Silver was in Bal Masque all along. But how does that explain Konoe's purpose of preventing extraction of Silver from within Yuuji then, if I'm not mistaken? :confused:

Awesome episode overall but Pheles is gone now. :(


silver can manifest through yuji, so silver can be extracted through the "warp gate" (reiji maigo)

[alvinkhorfire]

It seems that the combination of Shana, Marjorie and Wilhemina is no match to Fecor and Hecate, though the situation is quite chaotic at that time. I wonder how they are going to defeat Hecate in the future. The only available option as it seems is the wind created by Johan and Pheles which is even stronger than magnesia and aster.
The way Tanaka is fuzetsu-phobia, he is not going to be much help to Marjorie Daw later on.

Why did Yuji momentarily transform to Johan?

silver can manifest through yuji, so silver can be extracted through the "warp gate" (reiji maigo)

So you are saying that it is not right time for Silver to emerge, so Hecate has to seal it?

[cnnydz]

Why did Yuji momentarily transform to Johan?

So you are saying that it is not right time for Silver to emerge, so Hecate has to seal it?

yes, silver was not meant to appear (or should i say merge with reiji maigo) until everything is ready

being a excellent spell user johan was able to use the changes happening to the reiji maigo to temporarily manifest himself.

btw, every hit from fecor and hecate seems to be an atomic bomb going off:twitch::twitch::twitch:

[lua thien]

What? Every hit from Fecor and Hecate are like nukes? The explosion size look way too small to be even a normal atomic bomb.

[DX HBK]

I probably couldn't interpret the scene: Did Pheles absorbed Johan or something?

[cnnydz]

What? Every hit from Fecor and Hecate are like nukes? The explosion size look way too small to be even a normal atomic bomb.

i was exaggerating a bit, but the smallest atomic bomb in service now is about 0.3 kilotons, which is 50 times smaller than the one dropped at Hiroshima (little boy only had a blast radius of 3km and a fireball diameter of 370 m), so the explosion size is about right (100m radius or so). you can get nukes with 100Mt yield, that is 300,000 times bigger than the smallest

[serenade_beta]

I probably couldn't interpret the scene: Did Pheles absorbed Johan or something?

That seems to be it. Johann pops up and gave himself to her, disappearing forever(?) and freeing Yuuji.


Feelings that can't follow

When the end of the Seishuu Festival was announced, Konoe Fumina was no longer there.
She, being Hecate's fake vessel, was absorbed into Hecate, and any memories of the time they spent with her these several months are erased from her classmates' memories.
This displacement bewilders Kazumi.
But that is where Yuuji is.
On that night, at Satou's house, Marcosias lamented "There were three Flame Hazes... What a pathetic story."
The arrival of Johann and Pheles, the creators of the Midnight Lost Child.
The appearance of silver.
The descending of Hecate.
There are so many shards of mysteries, but the amount of answers they could find was few.
But, two people that were there, Yuuji and Kazumi, now has more determination than ever.


Boring pics this week...

Hah... R.I.P. Fumina.
You had an everlasting effect on me... Thanks to you, any attraction or interest in Hecate I ever had (quite a bit) has disappeared.

[newby]

lol the episode was great. loved the scene where shana hugged yuji =x

btw, the scene where shana and hecate fought reminds me of GSD where strike freedom fought legend in the last episode. LOL

[arkxkra]

this episdoe was not bad as well, the fighting scene was consider good(although abit short). I was shock because Konoe was a clone of Hecate? I was thought she is the real one >.<". Hecate collect memory again...

I love Shana hug Yuuji that scene too, beautiful.

Yoshida receive a Hougu from Pheles, what that Hougu use for? Getting and getting more interesting now, look forward to next episode. like Magery Daw has said "It was just a beginning."

[KaneDragon]

I was amused by all the rampant destruction in this episode, what with the mininukes, the Hecate beamspam (Hecate actually does something besides orgasmicly "synchronize"? Who knew?), the giant cubes crushing city blocks... Haha.

Yuji-Johan (Yuhan? Joji? Yoji?) gave a large chunk of his power to Pheles, and she's going to just leave? Who's going to clean up this mess? Well, judging by the preview, they'll go back and deal with the cleaning up next ep.

[FlareKnight]

I was also wondering just who cleaned up that big mess. Yuji/Johan got mostly emptied into Pheles so there could not be nearly enough to fix the large scale damage. Though probably why they didn't show the clean up.

Was a pretty touching scene with Shana catching Yuji. Can't blame her for being that upset since even I thought he might be gone even if it was just temporarily.

Good old Kazumi. City getting blasted, Yuji getting swapped in and out. Her biggest line "If only I could be up there too." :heh: Do wonder what kind of Hougu Pheles gave to Kazumi. Those kinds of things just cause trouble. Guess we'll find out soon though so not much of a wait there.

Even considering Hecate as being who she is having that kind of firepower still surprises me.

Also a surprise to know that Bal Masque have the Silver. The whole situation is really quite weird. A ton of things were happening left and right no wonder the good guys were stuck running around.

[DX HBK]

When did they first notice that the Silver was in the Reiji Maigo? Because the Season one's blue insignia and fountain of existence goal would have been a waste of their time in the first place.

[Kristen]

Can I say something along the lines of... It's about time!

This was a great episode. No more Kanoe, great battle scenes, and no "I will never lose!" from either Shana or Kazumi.
I'd rank thins amongst the final Friagne episode and the final episodes of SnS season 1. I would give it a 10/10, but there were just some scenes that were really poorly drawn and/or animated. So, in the end, I'll take away a point, and give it a well deserved 9.

Next week seems to be a little step away from the action, but it doesn't seem like much.

And from the way things are looking, I think Yoshida is going to become a Flame Haze or an equivalent to one to be closer to Yuji.

[Irenicus]

Great episode. Good action, a lot of twists, a few things concluded and fortunately low (if still sadly existent) Yoshida airtime. About time, I say! And it completely defused my initial disappointment of this arc in episode 13. :)

However, question to those in the know:

What just happened to Johan? Did he return to the Reiji Maigo, or did he completely disappeared into Pheles (and if that's the case, does his consciousness remain?); or, was he like, watching all the fun with popcorns in hand from the back of Yuji's head all along (he seems like the type)?

[taelrak]

Phele's entrance was awesome. Master Throne Hecate's was better.

[fuzzles]

liked the fight, getting sick of yoshida she's still going i wanna be closer to him blah blah blah she's driving me nuts if that hougu she recieved lets her be close to yuji i'm gonna stop watching this show when will they finally get rid of her for christ's sake. well at least konoe is gone hated that character from the beginning

aaaaaaand we've got more mysteries to unravel that'll be something to look forward too, unless of course next week they decide to take us back 10 more steps

and hecate's primary purpose for sending that ltitle annoyance konoe was for memories? are you ****ing kidding me! yeah yeah i know there was another goal behind it but it wasn't hecate's geez getting tired of that.

[taelrak]

liked the fight, getting sick of yoshida she's still going i wanna be closer to him blah blah blah she's driving me nuts if that hougu she recieved lets her be close to yuji i'm gonna stop watching this show when will they finally get rid of her for christ's sake. well at least konoe is gone hated that character from the beginning

aaaaaaand we've got more mysteries to unravel that'll be something to look forward too, unless of course next week they decide to take us back 10 more steps

and hecate's primary purpose for sending that ltitle annoyance konoe was for memories? are you ****ing kidding me! yeah yeah i know there was another goal behind it but it wasn't hecate's geez getting tired of that.

Well, regardless of what her motives were, they were pretty successful....

I never cared much for Konoe, but always felt that Hecate was a pretty interesting character. She doesn't come out as quite sinister enough in the anime, but it's refreshing to have a villain who doesn't talk for 20 minutes and gloat and all that before getting straight to the point.

Kinda sad that her combined attack with the other guy couldn't penetrate the wind barrier that Pheles keeps around her just as a sort of aura in her everyday flying - it doesn't even seem like she was intent on making a defense or anything, not to mention she just had an arm that was a thick as her waist rip through her draining her energy :p

[SoldierOfDarkness]

So Silver was in Bal Masque all along. But how does that explain Konoe's purpose of preventing extraction of Silver from within Yuuji then, if I'm not mistaken? :confused:

Awesome episode overall but Pheles is gone now. :(

I have a feeling she'll be back. She said Johan asked her for a favor. Since he's been in the Hougu he must' know what's happening to Yuji.

[Whitemoon648]

:eyespin::eyespin:So confusing yet soooo exciting. I loved it so much. It was sooo good.


Now few things i am wondering. Maybe Now Yoshida-san is becoming a flamehaze too. That artifact she was holding seemed like one of those symbols that Goze no tomogara give their chosen one to become a flame haze.


Cant wait for next episode. For first time didnt even watch the preview so that nothing will get spoiled. I hope no filler in the next episode.

let the count down begin for the next episode. Ok 7 days to go :heh:.

[holyman282]

man there can only be one word for this ep INTENSE

Seriously so many things were happening at the same time, i was on the edge of my seats for the whole ep!

The reaction of Eita in seeing Oga-chan in the fuzetsu again was just so nicely done! Really draws out the trauma he suffered previously and was extremely realistic.

Silver bursting out of Yuji was like a scene from Aliens and had my jaw open. This ep left alot more questions then it answered and the incident with Konoe made me wonder that it looked liked maybe Hecate placed Konoe to gather up some precious memories in her place or something. All that symbolism with the birds had me confused a bit but I'd say artistically it was amazingly done. The music in this ep took a level up and fitted so well and we saw Shana crying for Yuji...

Seriously my thoughts are so messed up right now after seeing this ep, it was so good that I can't find words to describe it so i'm just stumbling all over myself...

It was a perfect blend of action and development. Ep 13 was good for it's fastpaced action but this ep was spectacular for it's action and character development.

I really hope Yoshida will do something now that she got a hougou from Pheles...

[rimaa]

This anime has really turned itself around from those boring slice-of-life type episodes earlier this season....Since Pheles Showed up(end of episode 12) the pace has been faster, and its been really intense and enjoyable. Now that Pheles is gone, I hope the anime keeps delivering the goods.

[Rhyel]

Great episode, but (Johan + Yuji + Silver + Reiji Maiko) = Total Confusion Now. :confused:

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Seems more like Yuji+Silver+Reji now. Johan seems to have ceased to exist or something (He gave his existence to Pheles). Sucks though cause I was starting to like the guy.

Though in regards to Kazumi....just give it up girl.

[KaneDragon]

Johan isn't dead, he's just sleeping. T_T Pheles would be acting a tad bit differently if that weren't the case.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

I dunno because it looked liked he was pouring his own soul and existence into her so in a way he'll always be with her LOL....

[Whitemoon648]

Is it just me or Pheles has changed sound ( voice) like 3, 4 times at least. She is just toooooooo epic :heh:.


Seems more like Yuji+Silver+Reji now. Johan seems to have ceased to exist or something (He gave his existence to Pheles). Sucks though cause I was starting to like the guy.

Though in regards to Kazumi....just give it up girl.

Doubt he is dead. As pheles said herself, " For Our own sake and your sake" so that alone indicate that Johan isnt dead.

[Reckoner]

Excellent episode, actions was crazy, the shana hug was very touching. It earned a 9/10 from me.


So any speculation on what Pheles is planning to do?

[KaneDragon]

Shame Yuji and Johan can't keep up a conversation; at least Johan has a clue. And speaking of Johan, lol @ him telling everyone on the battlefield to stfu. It's like, bam! "I'm teh Johan, fools! Can't touch this." And he was right, they just couldn't touch that. If he had appeared earlier, maybe Hecate would have just surrendered. :p

[Devard]

My second ten for this season thanks to nicely timed music coupled with awesome art and plot development. Another plus in this episode was getting to see Shana crying out and flying towards Yuji in desperation. Of course, let's not forget the hug. ;)

Here's a shot of the scene from the novels:
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/4549/n13pt1.th.jpg (http://img210.imageshack.us/my.php?image=n13pt1.jpg)

[Shiroth]

Even though this episode was something happened, then something again and then so on, it handled it quite nicely instead of it falling into a complete mess --- do like how it was pointed out within the series how so much is happening at once.

& damn so much new Ko Otani material. Just in time after the first soundtrack's release.

Another plus in this episode was getting to see Shana crying out and flying towards Yuji in desperation. Of course, let's not forget the hug. ;)
I absolutely loved that scene, i was all 'in the moment' though Kazumi had to go and destroy it for me. Not the first time something like this has happened thanks to her.

Quick question for novel readers --- were are we upto in terms of novel volumes?

[Sterling01]

Quick question for novel readers --- were are we upto in terms of novel volumes?

About half done with volume 13

[S_K]

I wonder what will happen to Yoshida, now tht she's got the hougu?
so Konoe Fumina really was Hecate, ok not really but konoe is part of Hecate no wonder they looked so alike

[taelrak]

I wonder what will happen to Yoshida, now tht she's got the hougu?
so Konoe Fumina really was Hecate, ok not really but konoe is part of Hecate no wonder they looked so alike

Errr, did anyone ever truly think she wasn't? There'd be no point in introducing her to the story if she wasn't....

I'm hoping Yoshida will try to use the hougu, overextend herself, and burn up in a little flame. Then, I'm hoping Shana will try to rescue her and get sucked into the resulting explosion and also die. After that, I'm hoping that Yuugi snaps because of their deaths and his mind dissolves completely, leaving his body empty and available for people more worthy of the Reiji Meigo.

[Proto]

Just as a means to guess how much material will be covered this season, which are the novels prior to the 13th whose content hasn't been covered in its totality?


I'm hoping Yoshida will try to use the hougu, overextend herself, and burn up in a little flame. Then, I'm hoping Shana will try to rescue her and get sucked into the resulting explosion and also die. After that, I'm hoping that Yuugi snaps because of their deaths and his mind dissolves completely, leaving his body empty and available for people more worthy of the Reiji Meigo.

I think someone is forcing himself too hard to watch this series :p

[Master Chibi]

It's so bloody obvious that the show is meant to push action the way it did in this episode. The first season was like 65% action and 35% LOVE triangle, and it worked pretty damn well.

This second season was absolutely trash because they attempted some slice of high school life crap (and failed), almost turned things into a love rectangle (also failed horribly), and had really no action at all up until now.

And yeah, people were against this show being action oriented (or sticking it into said genre), but hell with as much as they packed into this episode, I wish they would have started sooner and cut this show's length in half.

I mean I've gotten more out of this episode the entire second series up to this point (which worries me because we've still got 11 freaking episodes left). I'm not sure that's a good thing.

And could they bloody write Yoshida out of the story already. Jesus.

"I wish that was me up there~"

Woman, you are done, forget it.

[Proto]

This second season was absolutely trash because they attempted some slice of high school life crap, almost turned things into a love rectangle, and had really no action at all up until now.

You know... something as simple as adding a "in my opinion" might make people think that you are more open to debate and that you aren't trying to berate those who have liked the second season. As incredible as you might think it is, there are people who have liked the content of the second season so far, and who like Yoshida Kazumi as a character. At least, yours truly does. Which does not means that I believe your opinion to be incorrect at all. They are opinions after all, which are as subjective as something can get in this world. I'm just asking to think a little of your counterpart in this little debate ;)

That said, me liking slow paced episode is not self-exclusionary with me liking some action oriented episode, as seen in the first page of this thread ^_^

[Master Chibi]

Yeah, sorry, I'm 100% open to debate on whatever, I just get rather passionate and single minded about these type of things when I type them out. My apologies.

^_^;;;

[taelrak]

I think someone is forcing himself too hard to watch this series :p

Oh they've got me completely hooked with the "one more episode" syndrome. I kept telling myself that just one more episode and maybe Pheles will show up and things will start getting really intense...and of course they managed to keep me at it for 12 whole episodes :p

[mpt37]

Can anyone tell me what the exchange between Wilhelmina and Pheles was about?

Based on SS/Eclipse subs. (When Pheles is about to leave):

Wilhelmina: Why do you shoulder everything yourself, why won't you...
Pheles: I no longer have the right to
Wilhelmina: Even so, I'm...
Pheles: Thank you

At this point I'm really confused as to what the relationship between Wilhelmina/Pheles is so that's probably why that part made no sense to me. How do they know each other? and why is Wilhelmina so worried about her?

[Sterling01]

Just as a means to guess how much material will be covered this season, which are the novels prior to the 13th whose content hasn't been covered in its totality?

Well Novel 10 hasn't been animated but they might do that one with 15 (if they get there) as they're both in the past

[Sterling01]

At this point I'm really confused as to what the relationship between Wilhelmina/Pheles is so that's probably why that part made no sense to me. How do they know each other? and why is Wilhelmina so worried about her?

They're friends with each other

[KaneDragon]

Can anyone tell me what the exchange between Wilhelmina and Pheles was about?

Based on SS/Eclipse subs. (When Pheles is about to leave):

Wilhelmina: Why do you shoulder everything yourself, why won't you...
Pheles: I no longer have the right to
Wilhelmina: Even so, I'm...
Pheles: Thank you

At this point I'm really confused as to what the relationship between Wilhelmina/Pheles is so that's probably why that part made no sense to me. How do they know each other? and why is Wilhelmina so worried about her?
It depends. How good are your yuri goggles? :p

[FlareKnight]

I absolutely loved that scene, i was all 'in the moment' though Kazumi had to go and destroy it for me. Not the first time something like this has happened thanks to her.I'm completely with you there. Such a nice moment and yet again Kazumi comes in with a line like that. Could have stayed in that touching moment instead. If you just pause right before her line its not too bad. Really was something though with Shana that worried.

At least Yuji was perceptive enough not to ask something like "why are you crying". Even if he has missed how Shana feels on some levels, her concern was hard to miss there.

Now if only he would stop screaming and panicking all the time. Admitting that these are stressful times. I'd say the guy needs some more training in handling dangerous situations, but that might open the door to training episodes...

[nines]

i only have one thing to say to this entire episode i want kazumi dead and go shana :O

[TigerII]

So..we have The Silver Flame, The Armor Suit, Johan, Several seals, and the Reiji Maigo all inside poor Yuji. Poor kid. I wonder if he was ever human..

Also, what novel is the current episode in?

[Proto]

Also, what novel is the current episode in?

Post #51 has your answer :)

[KaneDragon]

Poor Silver, lol. I always had the impression he was... you know... bigger. :p

[Whitemoon648]

I'm completely with you there. Such a nice moment and yet again Kazumi comes in with a line like that. Could have stayed in that touching moment instead. If you just pause right before her line its not too bad. Really was something though with Shana that worried.

At least Yuji was perceptive enough not to ask something like "why are you crying". Even if he has missed how Shana feels on some levels, her concern was hard to miss there.

Now if only he would stop screaming and panicking all the time. Admitting that these are stressful times. I'd say the guy needs some more training in handling dangerous situations, but that might open the door to training episodes...



I absolutely loved that scene, i was all 'in the moment' though Kazumi had to go and destroy it for me. Not the first time something like this has happened thanks to her.

Quick question for novel readers --- were are we upto in terms of novel volumes?



I felt sad for Kazumi. How can you guys not :upset:. Its not fair you know. Shana has a huge advantage over her. I will be rooting for you Kazumi Yoshida-san :). I mean its not like shana was the only one crying like that ( well i did feel sorry for her too) and worrying about him.



P.S. Does this guy ( Yuji) even deserve all the attention he is getting :twitch:??? . I will be rooting for you Johan. Take over the useless yuji and become the new cool protagonist you are :cool:. Lets start a Johan fanclub ^_^.

[KholdStare]

Sweet, I have no fucking clue what just happened that episode but I'm give it a 10/10 just because!

[Shadow Angel]

Its nice to know that Hecate can actually put up a fight she's done better this season than the first one.

[alvinkhorfire]

The episodes 22-24 in the season 1 are anime original content and they portray Hecate as slightly weak character (She needs to be saved by Sydonay after experiencing emotional breakdown.). I believe that some of us including myself are shocked to see Hecate can fight as well and that is actual fact as stated in the novels. The happening at episode 22-24 provides misunderstanding as what Hecate is capable of.

Another twist in this episode is that Fumina is actually Hecate's clone. Most of us actually thought that Fumina is Hecate in disguise. If she was to be consumed by the Debris of the Dashing Crook, Cache-sama, in episode 3, it will not bring any harm to Hecate and Hecate can still seal Silver into Yuji without Fumina.

[Pinion]

Don't make Shana cry :(

[evarcrazy89]

one thing i want to ask . The wind barrier that deflected hecate and felcor attack is created by feles or by johan ?

[serenade_beta]

one thing i want to ask . The wind barrier that deflected hecate and felcor attack is created by feles or by johan ?

Considering Johann is just a mere mystes, it was Pheles. She's created tornados like that before too.

[evarcrazy89]

wow... even though she is already weakened by silver, still she could take care of their attack like ease, how strong is she anyway.

[serenade_beta]

wow... even though she is already weakened by silver, still she could take care of their attack like ease, how strong is she anyway.

She was backed up with the power of love. :heh:

[cnnydz]

hope they will do vol10, it is so good, i was feeling down for days after reading vol10.

that hougu has a catch to it, and that is the reason why i think pheles is a nasty one

[angelhalo]

Hi,

Can someone enlighten me why does Hecate wants to collect memories with Yuji?

Or will they reveal this in the future??

[Mandrake]

I wonder what the death toll was after that encounter :(

[Deathkillz]

Hi,

Can someone enlighten me why does Hecate wants to collect memories with Yuji?

Or will they reveal this in the future??
I think she has developed an interest in yuji after the first season and only wants to know more about him. Perhaps that when it does come down to killing yuji, she finds herself unable to do it.

Shana's tears have no effect on me...if only she wasn't so powerless against the enemy (I stress again that she lost her badass side somewhere between S1 and S2 :sad:).

[Shiroth]

Shana's tears have no effect on me...if only she wasn't so powerless against the enemy (I stress again that she lost her badass side somewhere between S1 and S2 :sad:).
This is what happens when you fall in love.

[Southern Cross]

I dunno, Shana seems to be on the worst end of things getting hit with all those occurrences so rapidly, so I kind of understand why she's going through such emotions the way she did.

The episode was pretty intense, and quite fast paced. I could barely keep up with it all myself. :heh:

Hopefully they start putting the series on cruise control with the amount of action we've been getting. If they continue at the rate they're going in terms of actions, I fear they'll undermine the end of it all. There's no better way to end something of this sort than with something epic.

[cnnydz]

at most two more episodes and we will get more action, and the plot development will speed up even more i guess

[plzd0ntkeelme]

This ep is awesome with all the battles but it sure feels pointless. So, at the end reiji maigo is still in Yuuji so all the damages can still be fixed. Nobody died except Fumina but she's Hecate anyway. Silver also fail to materialize, and Johan went back inside Yuuji and everything went back just like before the battle begin. What on earth is all the chaos for? The only progression is in the next ep when Yoshida might become a Flame Haze.

I'm pretty sure the cyclone that blocks all the attacks come from Pheles. It's the same cyclone she uses when she messed up the school festival.

[Kiyoru]

Just watched the episode, and it was pretty good, but left me confused.

Could somebody explain the Yuji/Johan part, please? I don't get it D:

[FlareKnight]

I felt sad for Kazumi. How can you guys not :upset:. Its not fair you know. Shana has a huge advantage over her. I will be rooting for you Kazumi Yoshida-san :). I mean its not like shana was the only one crying like that ( well i did feel sorry for her too) and worrying about him.Well I'd admit a slight bias against Kazumi has been there since the beginning. Hard to explain just what caused it exactly. But whatever the reason it has been incredibly easy to keep up.

Besides she's had some good advantages early on. Being a lot more sure about her feelings and an edge in the chest area :heh:. Are you sure Shana wasn't the only one crying like that? I mean Pheles probably was crying at some point, but Kazumi's eyes seemed pretty dry all through. But may leave that to her just not having any idea about the situation. Heck the Flame Hazes could barely keep track of it all.P.S. Does this guy ( Yuji) even deserve all the attention he is getting :twitch:??? . I will be rooting for you Johan. Take over the useless yuji and become the new cool protagonist you are :cool:. Lets start a Johan fanclub ^_^.I'm honestly not believing this guy deserves all the attention either. But sadly Johan taking over would make Shana sad so its not much of an option. Guy will just have to become someone deserving at some point.

[Whitemoon648]

I'm honestly not believing this guy deserves all the attention either. But sadly Johan taking over would make Shana sad so its not much of an option. Guy will just have to become someone deserving at some point.


Then lets make the series about " Phelese of the whim", She is alot cooler than shana :D.

Who really needs shana and Yuji, when you can have Pheles and Johan ;).

I think she has developed an interest in yuji after the first season and only wants to know more about him. Perhaps that when it does come down to killing yuji, she finds herself unable to do it.

She was about to kill him in this episode. Werent they going to try disassembling the container (Yuji) ? That is basically the same thing as destorying Yuji.

Shana's tears have no effect on me...if only she wasn't so powerless against the enemy (I stress again that she lost her badass side somewhere between S1 and S2 :sad:).

I thought her tears was kinda sad. Or at least it was very nicely animated and with the BGM it was kinda epic.

And about Shana, being worthless, i disagree. I mean We shouldnt forget that Hecate is one of the strongest Tomogaras. And shana basically was fighting equally against her. So i dont think she has lost her skills.


Any ways i do admit that she has become softer and in terms of attitude isnt the same Shana as season 1, but i guess people change. You can say, almost every single character in Shana has changed since S1.

and as shiroth said,
This is what happens when you fall in love.

[HayashiTakara]

A sad Shana = A sad Takara :(

seriously though, Yoshida needs to go away, It makes me jump with glee everytime I see her realize more and more that she does not belong in Yuji's and Shana's world. She's just a normal human and should live her life as a normal human being, Yuji and Shana did not choose to be what they are, they live in a world of strife and chaos, Yoshida has no place in it.

That Hougo is probably just something Pheles is using to keep an eye on things while she's away anyway.

[The Best In The West]

This is clrearly the best episode in season 2 sor far.

[Whitemoon648]

This is clrearly the best episode in season 2 sor far.

Maybe we could even say the best in both season *_*. Well by a small margin from few episode in season 1 at least.

[alvinkhorfire]

She was about to kill him in this episode. Werent they going to try disassembling the container (Yuji) ? That is basically the same thing as destorying Yuji.



Why does Hecate want to disassemble Yuji? Yet another part of their plan to resurrect Silver?

At about 16.16 minutes, Yuji fall down after some sort of unrestricted method occurs. Why is it so?

At about 17.48 minutes, someone said: "I am sorry." I think it is Johan. Why did he say so?

[lua thien]

I think she has developed an interest in yuji after the first season and only wants to know more about him. Perhaps that when it does come down to killing yuji, she finds herself unable to do it.

Shana's tears have no effect on me...if only she wasn't so powerless against the enemy (I stress again that she lost her badass side somewhere between S1 and S2 :sad:).

Perhaps if she gets another chance that is. Yuji has become irrelevant in the Master Throne's view now that she merged with Konoe and absorbed those memories. I just want to see how she'll use them later on.

It would be awesome if Shana can do Mujushin Kenjitsu while battling Hecate.

[Sterling01]

Why does Hecate want to disassmble Yuji? Yet another part of their plan to resurrect Silver?

You'll see soon enough

At about 16.16 minutes, Yuji fall down after some sort of unrestricted method occurs. Why is it so?

Johan was taking over his body

At about 17.48 minutes, someone said: "I am sorry." I think it is Johan. Why did he say so?

He was saying sorry to Wilhelmina for stealing Pheles

[KaneDragon]

Why does Hecate want to disassmble Yuji? Yet another part of their plan to resurrect Silver?

At about 16.16 minutes, Yuji fall down after some sort of unrestricted method occurs. Why is it so?
1) I'm thinking that was so that the Raging Mango would randomly appear in another torch somewhere not crowded with top class Flame Haze, so that whatever mechanism they have in place has time to complete without interference. Or if the random relocation is still a problem, maybe they wanted to steal the Mango completely. Hecate considered all objectives completed despite failing at disassembly, which is why I lean towards the former. And resurrect Silver? I thought they were keeping him captive for something....

2) Yuji can't fly/hover. The actions of someone else had caused him to be suspended in midair, and the spell activating was enough to break whatever mechanism remained.

[Rhyel]

To me, one scene have no sense.

After the battle is over Pheles drop Johan... I don't undertand why.

Nodoby cares about until he transform back to Yuji. :eyebrow:

[Cheezy]

Wow, great ep.

My only complaint is Kazumi, with her always staring and going "i wish i could be closer to yuji...."

[Whitemoon648]

Why does Hecate want to disassemble Yuji? Yet another part of their plan to resurrect Silver?

At about 16.16 minutes, Yuji fall down after some sort of unrestricted method occurs. Why is it so?

At about 17.48 minutes, someone said: "I am sorry." I think it is Johan. Why did he say so?

-It could be that. or just that they want to control silver, or it could be they just want Reiji maigo like before.

-He falls down because maybe Johan is trying to take control again?

-And As johan saying Sorry , it could mean many things. It could mean Johan doesnt exist any more. It could mean that in past something between them has happend and he is saying sorry. and many other things.



There could be manythings to what they say, so Really cant predict anything .

[Reckoner]

I have a feeling the silver is just part of a much bigger plot for Bal Masque. Perhaps, like Sabrac, they put their own mark on the Reiji Maigo?

[Kaisos Erranon]

Alright, finally watched it.

Would have been much better if Yuji ever did anything else but scream like a little girl. I'm still wondering why any girl would ever want him, ever. He's so damn pathetic that it makes me sick. At least he actually used his powers (once), so I guess he gets some points for that...

However, with the inclusion of Dantalion and the reveal of Bal Masque's plans, this episode shoots up into the land of much better.

So, 10 - 22 for Yuji's patheticness + 17 for Dantalion and Bal Masque - 3 for Yoshida being Yoshida + 5 for Johan's awesomness = 7/10.

[HayashiTakara]

From my perspective, Hecate seems like she's trying to stop Silver's resurrection, along with the others of Bal Masque, which means under that cute exterior, lies a power hungry warmonger who wants to keep the Silvers position as head hancho of Bal Masque, just my view though

[X207]

From my perspective, Hecate seems like she's trying to stop Silver's resurrection, along with the others of Bal Masque, which means under that cute exterior, lies a power hungry warmonger who wants to keep the Silvers position as head hancho of Bal Masque, just my view though

same here, they had most of silver already. letting it come out in their HQ is their plan imo. imo hecate was supressing the silver in yuji.

[CapoExecutor]

Perhaps if she gets another chance that is. Yuji has become irrelevant in the Master Throne's view now that she merged with Konoe and absorbed those memories. I just want to see how she'll use them later on.

It would be awesome if Shana can do Mujushin Kenjitsu while battling Hecate.

I'll agree about the supposed lack of sword skill Shana displayed against Hecate.

Hmm... Shana + Mujushin Kenjitsu = ?

Is it just me or did Pheles began acting a bit more her age after she absorbed Johan?

[Guido]

For those who still have some hesitation that Shana would not be able to comeback to its former glory then you must hurry and watch this, and then rewatch episodes 13 to 15 in a row.

Plenty of mind-blowing action, and I give my confidence vote to the Shana II soundtrack as the best O.S.T. of the year. Johann's theme is a magnificient track of medieval fantasy, that it mesmerized me completely.


What I could make up by arranging all the things left by this mess of a good hell episode were:

1. The existence of Konoe Fumina was a faux vessel created in Hecate's image to gather experiences in the human world after being sent there, so that those experience ended up becoming precious memories.
Konoe transferred the memories into Hecate in order to fill the Master Throne, then the former dissipated into foam which was absorbed into Hecate.
Recall that in the previous season, the Bal Masque intended for the vessel of the Reiji Maigo (Yuuji) to become one inside Hecate. Hecate attempted to fill her existence by absorbing Yuujis' memories into herself, but that planned was thwarted.

That was the Bal Masque first objective. Recovering Konoe, then she transferred her memories of living in the human world to Hecate in order to fill the Master Throne.

2. The second objective would be pure guesswork. Hecate ensured to keep the seal on in the Reiji Maigo. Likely whom Fecor meant not to let out was Johann, which later was confirmed once Johann went outside temporarily, and Fecor could not stop to frown with dissapointment that they failed to achieve so.

I don't know how and when the Silver fell into hands of the Bal Masque, and why they are using it. I speculate that if someone as powerful like Pheles would attempt to breach the seal in the Reiji Maigo, then the seal will alert of the intruder's break in to the Bal Masque.
Then, they warp the Silver or parts of 'it' into the Reiji Maigo to defend from any outside breach.

[mir]

Probably the best episode of the 2nd season so far. Hopefully we'll see a lot more of Hecate from now on...because it's all about the white mage outfit <.<

[Aquifina]

A fast-paced episode that left me almost breathless. Yuji could have acted better, but at least he did manage to help out Margery with the spell; I think a lot of you are being too hard on him. Yes, he does seriously freak out, but dude, the guy has got an armored arm coming out of his chest. Yuji's seen lots of crazy and strange things, but this is a new one. And this is something all his new training isn't really all that useful for--i.e. casting a fuzetsu and improved combat skills. But the ep went far beyond Yuji, and involved pretty much all the major players.

[karinvampire]

volume 16 needs to be animated but if it ends like that i will be upset because that means another year to wait for season 3.



I don't mind Kazumi I just feels she gets in the way and in S1 it looked liked Yuji was some what attractive to shana like in the "Incest twins" arc and when he first met her.


I like this season but more action plz

[DX HBK]

Why didn't she try aiming at the fingers on one of Hecate's hands when Hecate brought the Trigon up to block her strike? I watched that scene over and over and can never get why that didn't occur. At least it would disarm the Supreme Throne of a few fingers and then she could kill.

Better yet, feign Hecate at the right moment and then slash low when she takes the bait.

Seems that no one knows how to fight effectively anymore or perhaps the writers decided to tone the melee elements down.


A fast-paced episode that left me almost breathless. Yuji could have acted better, but at least he did manage to help out Margery with the spell; I think a lot of you are being too hard on him. Yes, he does seriously freak out, but dude, the guy has got an armored arm coming out of his chest. Yuji's seen lots of crazy and strange things, but this is a new one. And this is something all his new training isn't really all that useful for--i.e. casting a fuzetsu and improved combat skills. But the ep went far beyond Yuji, and involved pretty much all the major players.

Well, he's got his left shoulder almost sliced off by Shana on the day they met and he's been experiencing a lot of unnormal stuff such as Sydonay trying to "molest" the kid on the bridge. I thought he could be a bit hardened or have some nerves of steel after going through all that, ready to expect new things he hasn't seen. Still, I'll agree that his mental stamina hasn't recovered enough from the current chain of events.

[holyman282]

Why didn't she try aiming at the fingers on one of Hecate's hands when Hecate brought the Trigon up to block her strike? I watched that scene over and over and can never get why that didn't occur. At least it would disarm the Supreme Throne of a few fingers and then she could kill.

Better yet, feign Hecate at the right moment and then slash low when she takes the bait.

Seems that no one knows how to fight effectively anymore or perhaps the writers decided to tone the melee elements down.

Did you honestly think Shana at that moment was thinking logically enough to come up with that plan... Looking at Shana rushing through Hecate's attacks really shows she was just desperate to save Yuji.... You have to watch things through the perspectives of those involved. Would they honestly think logically in those situation?

Shana was in tears for goodness sakes.

It's always easier to see things when you aren't directly involved in it.




Well, he's got his left shoulder almost sliced off by Shana on the day they met and he's been experiencing a lot of unnormal stuff such as Sydonay trying to "molest" the kid on the bridge. I thought he could be a bit hardened or have some nerves of steel after going through all that, ready to expect new things he hasn't seen. Still, I'll agree that his mental stamina hasn't recovered enough from the current chain of events.

Considering that silver arms burst out of his stomach like something out of Aliens. I think no amount of "hardening" as you say it would prepare anyone for that, also considering how sudden it was, it's not like he could prepare for the situation let alone have "nerves of steel" to prepare him for things...

[Kisuke06]

Finally something is starting to happen. But I already lost track of what is inside Yuji...

[Sinestra]

Great episode lots of things were revealed but only lead to more questions. Shana looking as desperate as she was to save Yuji was heartbreaking but shows just how much shes loves him. Right now Yuji is in a place that Yoshida can not reach however i sense something is going to happen with her, since Pheles left her something. So now we have Hecate back and she seems even more intent on getting Yuji's little gift. I hope the rollercoaster ride continues ill be along for the ride for sure. Right now our heros are not doing so well they are at huge disadvantage because of the lack of information about whats happening and the truth. I want to know exactly what Johan wants Pheles to do, that made her give up on Yuji. Maybe because of the spell on Reji Maigo he can no longer be fully retrieved

[DX HBK]

Did you honestly think Shana at that moment was thinking logically enough to come up with that plan... Looking at Shana rushing through Hecate's attacks really shows she was just desperate to save Yuji.... You have to watch things through the perspectives of those involved. Would they honestly think logically in those situation?

Shana was in tears for goodness sakes.

It's always easier to see things when you aren't directly involved in it.



Either she was desperate to save Yuji or trying to neutralize the closest threat to him are linked. I looked at that and then thought back on what Merihim told her back at the Tendou-Kyuu in fighting Tomogara or enemy Guze no Ou. The training she had was more of the type "when you point your sword at someone, it's kill or be killed. There ain't no in-between." Anyone of her caliber can come up with the right response in a matter of seconds. Compare the fights Shana had in Season 1 and Season 2.

She was in tears during the Pheles/Johan segment.

[minhtam1638]

The way that this season is going, I'm going to have to hold off on this series and marathon this at it's end, cause I have no clue where the heck we're going anymore. Bits and Pieces is all, but I have to string popcorn together for this season.

[Owaranai Destiny]

It's been way too long since I commented on an episode thread, but I finally got to it.

This episode was really a bag of shocks, surprises and action. Now that I've realised Konoe Fumina was nothing more than a vessel for which to get closer to Yuuji for a purpose known only to the top tier of the Balle Masque, the bad aftertaste of the filler arcs have more or less faded away completely. The only bad thing about them was they were a tad too long, but I digress.

Characters have changed as compared to what we saw in season 1, obviously. Shana has become more emotional, more expressive, and more emotionally attached to Yuuji as well, one important factor of how she fought (by the way, this is in regard to any posts about her battle 'tactics'). Look at what she did: Charging in recklessly, ignoring a warning from Alastor and trying her hardest to best Hecate when she should know better than to simply stay in one position for long. Everything that she did was all for Yuuji, in case the detractors of the way she fought didn't notice. Adding to this was the fact that Pheles had already jumped Yuuji twice. If that doesn't make her edgy and agitated, I don't know what else does during this period of time.

The mystery of the Silver deepens, and unless we get back to the Balle Masque (quite a brilliant way to show up IMO) or the novel spoilers, the viewers won't be getting anything out of it. I do know just a little about what the Silver really is but till I get the novels or watch any future episodes, let's keep it in suspense for those who have yet to know.

How long has it been since Hecate/Mamiko Noto made her appearance? Her performance was enjoyable, and we even get to see her in some action. Not too shabby for an action episode, since we have Fecor finally showing off what he's capable of. Here's to hoping for more Tomogara action in the future.

With the way Kazumi is thinking now, I wouldn't be surprised if she just gave up, though it does look like she has matured considerably in her behaviour towards Shana and Yuuji, as did Shana towards Kazumi in particular. I'm wondering what that Hougu does, though...

The scene with Pheles and Johan was somewhat touching, especially more so for those who know a little about the past that transpired with Pheles, Johan, Wilhelmina and Sabrac. I'd imagine the poor girl was searching for him for god knows how many years. All she got was several moments of sweet alone-time before he reverts back to Yuuji. Way to leave us with another mystery, Johan. :heh:

On the whole, a 10/10, hands down. A dash of things that would seem particularly minor in an episode with most of the time devoted to action. Only hope it gets better even as things cool down in the next episode.

*Would love to see the stories of Pheles and Johan, though...Something like what was described to us in the novel volume that depicted Shana's past in Tendou-kyu.

[Sinestra]

It's been way too long since I commented on an episode thread, but I finally got to it.

This episode was really a bag of shocks, surprises and action. Now that I've realised Konoe Fumina was nothing more than a vessel for which to get closer to Yuuji for a purpose known only to the top tier of the Balle Masque, the bad aftertaste of the filler arcs have more or less faded away completely. The only bad thing about them was they were a tad too long, but I digress.

Characters have changed as compared to what we saw in season 1, obviously. Shana has become more emotional, more expressive, and more emotionally attached to Yuuji as well, one important factor of how she fought (by the way, this is in regard to any posts about her battle 'tactics'). Look at what she did: Charging in recklessly, ignoring a warning from Alastor and trying her hardest to best Hecate when she should know better than to simply stay in one position for long. Everything that she did was all for Yuuji, in case the detractors of the way she fought didn't notice. Adding to this was the fact that Pheles had already jumped Yuuji twice. If that doesn't make her edgy and agitated, I don't know what else does during this period of time.

The mystery of the Silver deepens, and unless we get back to the Balle Masque (quite a brilliant way to show up IMO) or the novel spoilers, the viewers won't be getting anything out of it. I do know just a little about what the Silver really is but till I get the novels or watch any future episodes, let's keep it in suspense for those who have yet to know.

How long has it been since Hecate/Mamiko Noto made her appearance? Her performance was enjoyable, and we even get to see her in some action. Not too shabby for an action episode, since we have Fecor finally showing off what he's capable of. Here's to hoping for more Tomogara action in the future.

With the way Kazumi is thinking now, I wouldn't be surprised if she just gave up, though it does look like she has matured considerably in her behaviour towards Shana and Yuuji, as did Shana towards Kazumi in particular. I'm wondering what that Hougu does, though...

The scene with Pheles and Johan was somewhat touching, especially more so for those who know a little about the past that transpired with Pheles, Johan, Wilhelmina and Sabrac. I'd imagine the poor girl was searching for him for god knows how many years. All she got was several moments of sweet alone-time before he reverts back to Yuuji. Way to leave us with another mystery, Johan. :heh:

On the whole, a 10/10, hands down. A dash of things that would seem particularly minor in an episode with most of the time devoted to action. Only hope it gets better even as things cool down in the next episode.

*Would love to see the stories of Pheles and Johan, though...Something like what was described to us in the novel volume that depicted Shana's past in Tendou-kyu.

Hey welcome back iv missed reading your post.:)

[holyman282]

Either she was desperate to save Yuji or trying to neutralize the closest threat to him are linked. I looked at that and then thought back on what Merihim told her back at the Tendou-Kyuu in fighting Tomogara or enemy Guze no Ou. The training she had was more of the type "when you point your sword at someone, it's kill or be killed. There ain't no in-between." Anyone of her caliber can come up with the right response in a matter of seconds. Compare the fights Shana had in Season 1 and Season 2.

It's true that's what Merhim told her back then, but that was before Shana met Yuji. Certainly she was cold and a logical thinker back then but do you honestly think that Shana is still the same cold Flame Haze as before? I mean you can see that she's in love with Yuji, I mean if Pheles the creator of the Reiji Maigo can lose her sense of caution (hence gets stabbed by that silver arm) to save the one she loves then why do you think Shana who by the way is alot younger then Pheles, would think logically in a situation where the object of her affection is being threatened?

She was in tears during the Pheles/Johan segment.

True it was in the Pheles/Johan segment but those emotions are a carry over from all that was happening to Yuji. It doesn't matter whether she was crying in the Johan Segment or the Hecate segment, Shana crying shows her desperation reguardless of when it happens and is evidence that in that situation she would not be thinking logically to come up with a battle plan.

[DX HBK]

It's true that's what Merhim told her back then, but that was before Shana met Yuji. Certainly she was cold and a logical thinker back then but do you honestly think that Shana is still the same cold Flame Haze as before? I mean you can see that she's in love with Yuji, I mean if Pheles the creator of the Reiji Maigo can lose her sense of caution (hence gets stabbed by that silver arm) to save the one she loves then why do you think Shana who by the way is alot younger then Pheles, would think logically in a situation where the object of her affection is being threatened?


True it was in the Pheles/Johan segment but those emotions are a carry over from all that was happening to Yuji. It doesn't matter whether she was crying in the Johan Segment or the Hecate segment, Shana crying shows her desperation reguardless of when it happens and is evidence that in that situation she would not be thinking logically to come up with a battle plan.

Back when Shana was the cold Flame Haze, she couldn't beat Margery or Friagne in single combat. But add Yuji into the equation and she became more efficient enough to beat them both.

Surely, if her love interest's life is on line, then it would make her lethally more versatile and combat effective. I could say that she considers Yuji to be a part of her, thus her crying and I have no argument over that. And if that part of her is being an inch close to death, then she'd be thinking real fast enough to instinctively react and become more calculating.

So yeah, I would think that Shana would be able to think more logically than Pheles, who started acting a child that just got her favorite doll or candy taken away after getting impaled by the Silver's arm.

Anyways, Pheles doesn't use logic because she's really strong and has never come across an opponent that could best her in combat. That is, until a low-level but lethally calculating Guze no Tomogara named Sabrac appeared and literally beat the daylights out of Pheles, a powerful Guze no Ou, and Johan, a skilled Mystes spellcaster. On his own and fighting both of them at the same time.

[cnnydz]

Anyways, Pheles doesn't use logic because she's really strong and has never come across an opponent that could best her in combat. That is, until a low-level but lethally calculating Guze no Tomogara named Sabrac appeared and literally beat the daylights out of Pheles, a powerful Guze no Ou, and Johan, a skilled Mystes spellcaster. On his own and fighting both of them at the same time.

er... sabrac is like... em... the most feared tomogara in the whole world, who killed many of the world's strongest flame hazes and guze no ous, and he is not a low level tomogara, he is one of the most powerful kings. one thing i have to agree is that he is very cunning

[Owaranai Destiny]

Back when Shana was the cold Flame Haze, she couldn't beat Margery or Friagne in single combat. But add Yuji into the equation and she became more efficient enough to beat them both.

Take note that during the battle, Yuuji was there to HELP her. He was there as support, not being a hostage in this episode. If you wish to compare this with the fact that Yuuji was then held hostage before in the Seirei-den in season 1, Shana actually had time to calm down and think before setting off, so her lethality wasn't compromised so much at that time.

In this episode, we're talking about sudden twists and shocks, e.g. Believing the then Pheles to be real (that was naivete on Kazumi's and her part) and having the real one arriving with every intention of taking Johan out without much consideration of what would happen to Yuuji and the arrival of Konoe as a faux vessel. Coupled with the fact that she has been edgy over the past few days in regards to the Silver flame issue and having Pheles wanting to do something already earlier on, I'll pretty much say she just turned impulsive and rash to act on instinct rather than basing her fighting on 'logic'.

So yeah, I would think that Shana would be able to think more logically than Pheles, who started acting a child that just got her favorite doll or candy taken away after getting impaled by the Silver's arm.

Well...I can only begin to imagine just how long it took for her to FINALLY find the Reiji Maigo and in effect, Johan. You can't really determine the consistency of anyone's behaviour when it comes down to the matters of the heart.

[teachopvutru]

Take note that during the battle, Yuuji was there to HELP her. He was there as support, not being a hostage in this episode. If you wish to compare this with the fact that Yuuji was then held hostage before in the Seirei-den in season 1, Shana actually had time to calm down and think before setting off, so her lethality wasn't compromised so much at that time.

Also to mention that that part is the beginning of the story when Shana hasn't met Yuji for long. Her affection for him now has already grown stronger afterall...

EDIT:
Just watched this episode, and like many others, I'm also confuse as well, especially since they start to add Johan's appearance.

I chuckled a bit in the beginning when Wilhelmina's contractor said "Obsession" as the reaction to Pheles's behavior toward Johan. Nothing to say about the fight (most already mentioned those in details) except that those big cube things and the size of explosion rather surprised me...

And.. Pheles seems rather cute in this episode; and Shana is just hand-down full of wins. We don't see her cry very often, neither was the moe ever as strong before. The only time I remember her crying was when she thought she got rejected Yuji in season 1, but its impact was no where near as strong as this one... I loved that Yuji x Shana scene as well, although that one-liner Kazumi had to add kinda made me sigh.

But at least it appears Kazumi will later have some kind of role to the story.

Anyway, 10/10, making it the first time I ever rate an episode as well (if memory serves me correctly). :heh:

[holyman282]

Back when Shana was the cold Flame Haze, she couldn't beat Margery or Friagne in single combat. But add Yuji into the equation and she became more efficient enough to beat them both.

Surely, if her love interest's life is on line, then it would make her lethally more versatile and combat effective. I could say that she considers Yuji to be a part of her, thus her crying and I have no argument over that. And if that part of her is being an inch close to death, then she'd be thinking real fast enough to instinctively react and become more calculating.
.

I agree with Owaranai Destiny, Shana's skills fluctuate throughout the series and the main cause for these fluctuations are Yuji. When she was fighting Margery in S1 her power increased when she felt that Yuji would fight alongside her and likewise, when Yuji was fighting against Friagne with Shana, her ability increased. Conversely, whenever it appears that Yuji is not with her, Shana's skills decrease. It's the same here, she loses control because she thought that Yuji would be taken and hence throws caution to the wind and rushes to battle...

Seriously DX look at the scene where Shana charges through Hecate's attack, does that look like a person who's thinking logically? Tell me honestly.

[darktruth]

Question: do you think it's possible Yoshida can turn into a villain in the actual story? (we all know how she is in Shana-tan lol) Her ongoing contest against Shana in winning Yuji's heart may lead to her doing some selfish acts.

[Owaranai Destiny]

Question: do you think it's possible Yoshida can turn into a villain in the actual story? (we all know how she is in Shana-tan lol) Her ongoing contest against Shana in winning Yuji's heart may lead to her doing some selfish acts.

As it is in the anime now, I don't see Kazumi becoming a villainess. So far she doesn't seem capable of displaying ingratitude towards Shana for having actually let her in on "their world" of the Flame Haze and Tomogara. However, it is possible that she might do something rash or stupid if she indeed had some power to use which might or might not lead to becoming a real hindrance rather than being a source of aid.

Shana-tan was meant purely for fun, so don't take that too seriously. :D

[DX HBK]

I agree with Owaranai Destiny, Shana's skills fluctuate throughout the series and the main cause for these fluctuations are Yuji. When she was fighting Margery in S1 her power increased when she felt that Yuji would fight alongside her and likewise, when Yuji was fighting against Friagne with Shana, her ability increased. Conversely, whenever it appears that Yuji is not with her, Shana's skills decrease. It's the same here, she loses control because she thought that Yuji would be taken and hence throws caution to the wind and rushes to battle...

Seriously DX look at the scene where Shana charges through Hecate's attack, does that look like a person who's thinking logically? Tell me honestly.

She had a few seconds while deflecting the Aster shower and closing in. The adrenaline she had can make anyone think of at least a single tactic, perhaps going far as to predict the foe's reaction. I didn't SAY she was thinking logically at that moment. I'm SAYING that she COULD'VE been thinking logically fast enough to squeeze out a tactic rather than to rely on just emotion and instinct, which could unintentionally show her limitations. Holyman, read the first post I wrote and I didn't say that she was thinking logically when she charged at Hecate. I'm questioning on the few seconds she spent not doing so.

[Owaranai Destiny]

She had a few seconds while deflecting the Aster shower and closing in. The adrenaline she had can make anyone think of at least a single tactic, perhaps going far as to predict the foe's reaction.

I'm missing something here;No offense, but are you implying that adrenaline can make people think logically? Wow...Well, I'm not proficient in the sciences, so I'll leave it to those who are for an explanation.

I didn't SAY she was thinking logically at that moment. I'm SAYING that she COULD'VE been thinking logically fast enough to squeeze out a tactic rather than to rely on just emotion and instinct, which could unintentionally show her limitations.

Hmm...Not impossible, but the scenario doesn't sound very plausible. I understand, of course, different people react in different ways when their loved ones are in danger. Still, I don't expect a girl who was expecting to confess to the boy she liked to 'think logically' when the latter's in danger of disappearing from her forever. Besides, she didn't rely on emotion and instinct, but was actually driven by it.

Aside from that, what kind of tactics or maneuvers would have been preferable? A suggestion would be nice to back up your statement that Shana could have done something better other than charge straight in and try to slice Master Throne into a million pieces.

And for starters, trying to chop off Hecate's fingers isn't viable. She isn't a darn practice dummy for beginners. ;)

[DX HBK]

I'm missing something here;No offense, but are you implying that adrenaline can make people think logically? Wow...Well, I'm not proficient in the sciences, so I'll leave it to those who are for an explanation.


Hmm...Not impossible, but the scenario doesn't sound very plausible. I understand, of course, different people react in different ways when their loved ones are in danger. Still, I don't expect a girl who was expecting to confess to the boy she liked to 'think logically' when the latter's in danger of disappearing from her forever. Besides, she didn't rely on emotion and instinct, but was actually driven by it.

Aside from that, what kind of tactics or maneuvers would have been preferable? A suggestion would be nice to back up your statement that Shana could have done something better other than charge straight in and try to slice Master Throne into a million pieces.

And for starters, trying to chop off Hecate's fingers isn't viable. She isn't a darn practice dummy for beginners. ;)

Adrenaline only makes them THINK faster. I didn't say it made them think more logically.
Adrenaline can cause people to think faster in relation to time. They become more alert in thinking things milliseconds off the bat. Aside from training in combat, Shana did have an education at the Tendou-Kyuu so the knowledge of applying quick-second tactics was greatly stressed.

http://luathien0.fileave.com/shanavshecate.jpg

When Hecate brought the Trigon to block, the fingers of both hands were around the grip of the staff. Try holding a pipe and you'll see that your fingers tend to envelop around it. So Shana could've aim a slash at Hecate's fingers when the Supreme Throne brought her weapon to block, not at the staff space between Hecate's hands as depicted above.

[teachopvutru]

^Actually, rather than Shana makes a mistake at where to strike, isn't it Hecate who is able to predict where to block? That's what I have been thinking, although looking back, the scene doesn't give much detail...

Also, I'm not really sure what adrenaline is, but when you are scare or desperate, don't you react fast to the situation at hand but gets dumb down on everything else? Shana can't think logically is one thing, but at the same time it seems like she is too desperate so her neglect on fighting a good fight just seems natural to me.

[holyman282]

Adrenaline only makes them THINK faster. I didn't say it made them think more logically.
Adrenaline can cause people to think faster in relation to time. They become more alert in thinking things milliseconds off the bat. Aside from training in combat, Shana did have an education at the Tendou-Kyuu so the knowledge of applying quick-second tactics was greatly stressed.

I'm missing something here;No offense, but are you implying that adrenaline can make people think logically? Wow...Well, I'm not proficient in the sciences, so I'll leave it to those who are for an explanation.

Very well i'll provide a explanation.. By the way DX you're wrong about what adrenaline does. Adrenaline is a hormone produced in the adrenal gland, the gland produces adrenaline during times of great stress or fear to activate a response called "fight or flight" where the hormone prepares the body to either run away or fight.

Take for example, why do people become pale when they get scared? Well that's one of the effects of adrenaline, it causes blood to rush to the muscles in preparation to runaway or to fight hence technically less blood would be at the brains for logical thinking.

In fact adrenaline does the opposite effect to what you've stated DX in that it actually causes a person to be more rash in their actions. I hope i've explained it. Anyone can tell you that it's hard to think when they are in panic and when they are in panic and that's because when they are in panic they produce adrenaline.

In other words Shana, who looks to be pumped full with adrenaline and chose to fight out of the "fight or flight" response could not possibly thinking logically.

I didn't SAY she was thinking logically at that moment.

I'm a bit confused but does that mean you agree with me in that she wasn't thinking logically?

I'm SAYING that she COULD'VE been thinking logically fast enough to squeeze out a tactic rather than to rely on just emotion and instinct, which could unintentionally show her limitations. Holyman, read the first post I wrote and I didn't say that she was thinking logically when she charged at Hecate. I'm questioning on the few seconds she spent not doing so.

Could've and would've are two different things, in those situations would most people be able to think logically and not rely on their emotions?

We have seen throughout the series that despite what Flame Hazes are, their reactions and emotions still mimick that of a human. We've seen Shana, display love, jealousy, sadness ect. We've also seen Margery lose control in ep 13, it's proof that despite the power Flame Hazes possess, they still have a sense of humanity in that they are still influenced by emotions and aren't just logical cold killers of Tomogura.

[Triple_R]

I have to agree with holyman282.

Shana struck me as coming just short of losing it in this episode - she almost snapped like Margery did in Episode 13.

I think that Shana just wanted to blitz Hecate into defeat - even cut her in half if that was necessary. It is possible that she wanted to wipe out Hecate's staff , though, perhaps seeing it as a major source, or channeller, of Hecate's power.

Either way, she was simply charging in with her emotions going full blast.


Episode 15 was a great, intense, thrill-ride. Episodes 13 through 15 have all been excellent, and they make up for a couple too many "slice of life" episodes in the first half of the season.

All around, Shana Season 2 is looking pretty good right now, and shaping up nicely.

I love how complex, and intertwined, Yuji's situation has become. It'll be great to see how it's all resolved.


I also think that Johan, for whatever reason, probably cares a bit about Yuji's fate (perhaps he could even see into Yuji's life and actions a bit from his position within him)?). I think he basically talked Pheles down into accepting the current situation for Yuji's sake until more could be done to rectify everything.

I think that Johan is still continuing to exist within Yuji - I don't think that he was absorbed by Pheles, or just faded away.

[DX HBK]

Very well i'll provide a explanation.. By the way DX you're wrong about what adrenaline does. Adrenaline is a hormone produced in the adrenal gland, the gland produces adrenaline during times of great stress or fear to activate a response called "fight or flight" where the hormone prepares the body to either run away or fight.

Take for example, why do people become pale when they get scared? Well that's one of the effects of adrenaline, it causes blood to rush to the muscles in preparation to runaway or to fight hence technically less blood would be at the brains for logical thinking.

In fact adrenaline does the opposite effect to what you've stated DX in that it actually causes a person to be more rash in their actions. I hope i've explained it. Anyone can tell you that it's hard to think when they are in panic and when they are in panic and that's because when they are in panic they produce adrenaline.

In other words Shana, who looks to be pumped full with adrenaline and chose to fight out of the "fight or flight" response could not possibly thinking logically.



I'm a bit confused but does that mean you agree with me in that she wasn't thinking logically?



Could've and would've are two different things, in those situations would most people be able to think logically and not rely on their emotions?

We have seen throughout the series that despite what Flame Hazes are, their reactions and emotions still mimick that of a human. We've seen Shana, display love, jealousy, sadness ect. We've also seen Margery lose control in ep 13, it's proof that despite the power Flame Hazes possess, they still have a sense of humanity in that they are still influenced by emotions and aren't just logical cold killers of Tomogura.

Adrenaline does go into the muscles to dramatically decrease reaction time but a good portion also goes into the brain as well in order to allow the nerves to act more quickly upon impulse. It's a temporary boost that amplifies the functions of the body beyond normal levels of activity. The circulation of blood increases EVERYWHERE and there's no area of limitations as you would imply in saying that more blood goes to the muscles than the brain. Don't you think someone would fatally burst veins or arteries in that kind of case? The paleness comes before the adrenaline circulates due to a fluctuation in the body's temperature. Overall, when your individual reaction time is decreased by adrenaline, then time relative seems mentally slower to you than normal.

The rashness comes more from the dark animalistic nature of the human being itself and that's when their emotions boil over their sentient mentality. Adrenaline might feed into that irrationality but it isn't the primary cause.

Shana could think logically in situations like that, even with the adrenaline going through her blood. Why the portrayal lacking that in the episode is a mystery.


You ASKED me the question on WHETHER she could be thinking logically when she charged into the fray. The only simple reaction I saw that held sound judgment/logic would be directly assaulting the threat Hecate posed, compared to just flying to and getting Yuji out of the fire. When I said "I didn't SAY she was thinking logically at the moment", that meant that I never answered your question in regards to MY view on whether Shana was acting on logic or judgment at all until now.

Overall, Shana did have a bit of logic but there could've been more in that small time gap between clearing the Aster and engaging Hecate: the point I stressed in my last post about slashing the fingers rather than just think: "slash to kill" repeatedly but failing to utilize the attacks to an effective level.


Besides, those few seconds after clearing the Aster Unrestricted Spell to engaging the enemy was more than enough sufficient time for her to set her first goal which was to strike Hecate down, but it raises the question within a millisecond later: How do I do that?

Half a second later: She's holding a staff that nearly blasted me out of the sky.

Another half second as she screams in bringing her sword up: She's about to block my attack so I'll disarm her by targeting her fingers surrounding parts of the staff.

alternative scenario that results:

Shana brings the Nietono no Shana down right on Hecate's fingers that enveloped the staff and SLASH! four of Hecate's fingers are sliced off and she's momentarily disarmed from the pain, leaving an opening for about two or three seconds.


Obviously, Flame Hazes are still human so I have neither an objection nor the energy to type anything about it

[Owaranai Destiny]

The way it is, DX, you're going to find fault with every single battle scene not only in SnS, but also in any fighting scenes from other shows. I'm suggesting you just drop this, or we can all just carry out with this pointless argument. ;)

Just for one last shot at this: You know, I'ver rewatched the scene, and it isn't as though Shana was aiming at the staff. I mean, you don't fight to aim for the weapon first, right? :rolleyes: The way she was fighting was to attack Hecate in the quickest and most direct way possible as dictated probably by her instinct, emotion and perhaps even a different train of thought from what you suggested.

No offense, but your suggestion is flawed (but interesting) at the very beginning because the scene doesn't show us if Hecate has already taken up her staff to parry before Shana tried to strike her. I'd like to see even the most seasoned warrior determine WHERE Hecate's fingers were accurately before she raised up her staff. There are so many possibilities for her; Hecate could dodge, parry the blow in the centre, step back and fire an Aster at her with the right timing. What makes you think Shana is the only one capable of thinking in this exchange of blows?

Besides, it's the same old argument: You could see her heart wasn't in it to fight Hecate, but she was actually more concerned with Yuuji. The moment he went into a freefall, she turned from the fight as though it never happened. The division of her attention might be a reason why she was unable to 'think logically' in that sense.

Re-watching the scene where Johan and Pheles finally met up was touching, but it gave me the chills too; Just exactly how insanely powerful is this Sabrac?

I even recalled that Wilhelmina was almost killed by him, but rescued by Pheles and Johan, but that's another story.

[holyman282]

Adrenaline does go into the muscles to dramatically decrease reaction time but a good portion also goes into the brain as well in order to allow the nerves to act more quickly upon impulse. It's a temporary boost that amplifies the functions of the body beyond normal levels of activity. The circulation of blood increases EVERYWHERE and there's no area of limitations as you would imply in saying that more blood goes to the muscles than the brain. Don't you think someone would fatally burst veins or arteries in that kind of case? The paleness comes before the adrenaline circulates due to a fluctuation in the body's temperature. Overall, when your individual reaction time is decreased by adrenaline, then time relative seems mentally slower to you than normal.

How much blood did you think i meant that was redirected from the brain to the muscles? The brain in a state of homeostasis is already a organ that has the most blood flow then any other organ in the body.

I was hoping we wouldn't get to the different lobes of the cerebrum but i guess i'll have to.. You understand that the cerebrum is made up of different lobes. Logical thinking, in the sense you're mentioning are located in the frontal lobe. The frontal lobe works by controlling problem solving initiation, facial movement, planning abilities, coordinating, and motivation. In other words this is the part where one could our sentience derives from.

One of the effects of Adrenaline is a heightened sense of awareness, which you may confuse as being more logical in your actions, but the instead it means that focus of nutrients and blood are diverted into the temporal lobe (auditory processing), parietal lobe (spatial sense and navigation) and occipital lobe (visual processing). All together increases in blood flows in those areas cause a heightened sense of awareness and not the frontal lobe which is what is involved in logical processing.

The rashness comes more from the dark animalistic nature of the human being itself and that's when their emotions boil over their sentient mentality. Adrenaline might feed into that irrationality but it isn't the primary cause.

Weren't you just arguing previously that adrenaline allows one to think logically and hence rationally? So now you're saying that Adrenaline might feed into that irrationality?

Also think of it this way, adrenaline is produced during periods of stress, in which your mind (hence your logical processing ability) is already not working at its optimum.

Shana could think logically in situations like that, even with the adrenaline going through her blood. Why the portrayal lacking that in the episode is a mystery.

The very fact that you think Shana, who was placed in a situation where the one she loves is in danger, discovering hecate is making her move and add that with the fact that Johan as well as silver is somehow inside Yuji, not to mention Pheles who was also after Yuji/Johan, then you go and call her not acting logically a mystery simply comfounds me.

I don't mean any offence or wish to argue but don't you feel that what you are saying is a bit unreasonable? You expect someone to act and think logically in those situations..

You ASKED me the question on WHETHER she could be thinking logically when she charged into the fray. The only simple reaction I saw that held sound judgment/logic would be directly assaulting the threat Hecate posed, compared to just flying to and getting Yuji out of the fire. When I said "I didn't SAY she was thinking logically at the moment", that meant that I never answered your question in regards to MY view on whether Shana was acting on logic or judgment at all until now.

I'd say that having the logic to realise Hecate is the cause is already a step above what normal people would of done and maybe that's a result of her being a Flame Haze. I'd say kudos to her for that instance of sound judgement, which has already surpassed that of normal human reactions during those situations, expecting anymore would be too unrealistic.

Overall, Shana did have a bit of logic but there could've been more in that small time gap between clearing the Aster and engaging Hecate: the point I stressed in my last post about slashing the fingers rather than just think: "slash to kill" repeatedly but failing to utilize the attacks to an effective level.

Indeed Shana did have a bit of logic at that time and like i said, that was already beyond superhuman in the context of the situation at hand. Expecting anymore would be unreasonable.

Besides, those few seconds after clearing the Aster Unrestricted Spell to engaging the enemy was more than enough sufficient time for her to set her first goal which was to strike Hecate down, but it raises the question within a millisecond later: How do I do that?

Half a second later: She's holding a staff that nearly blasted me out of the sky.

Another half second as she screams in bringing her sword up: She's about to block my attack so I'll disarm her by targeting her fingers surrounding parts of the staff.

alternative scenario that results:

Shana brings the Nietono no Shana down right on Hecate's fingers that enveloped the staff and SLASH! four of Hecate's fingers are sliced off and she's momentarily disarmed from the pain, leaving an opening for about two or three seconds.

Those are good tactics i'd admit but ask yourself, in the time between her flying out to meet Hecate does she really have the capacity to think all that, then act on it within those miliseconds. Battles involving time in the miliseconds, reflexes are more important then logical thinking.

Consider why we have a reflex arc system built into our bodies. Because if you put your hands on a hot plate and it takes your brain to think "geeze it's hot i should remove it" then you remove it, let's just say there's would be alot of burnt hands. Certain processes if gone through the normal way i.e. sensory>nerve>spinal cord> brain would take too long then say the reflex arc which just bypasses the brain.

[lua thien]

Good Lord, DX HBK. Obviously, fight scenes are bound to have mistakes. Just end the discussion about this already, man!

Anyways, Owaranai Destiny, info on Sabrac is in the novels section.

[Owaranai Destiny]

Good Lord, DX HBK. Obviously, fight scenes are bound to have mistakes. Just end the discussion about this already, man!

Anyways, Owaranai Destiny, info on Sabrac is in the novels section.

Just saw them. Thanks for the information anyway. :)

[grey_moon]

I dunno about adrenaline and Shana, she has been trained from a wee baby to deal with combat situations. Panic due to loosing something that she isn't willing to loose is more likely in my mind. In the old days it was living up to the memory of the previous Flame Haze and Alastor, but now it is poor fragile but oh so dense Yuji.

I personally think that the FH's power levels are linked to their emotional states. When Shana lost to Margery she was all confused by Yuji. Margery was so powerful maybe due to her need for revenge. When Shana was confident in her feelings for Yuji she was doing well, but right now she is in a halfway house so that could be affecting her.

[KaneDragon]

Good Lord, DX HBK. Obviously, fight scenes are bound to have mistakes. Just end the discussion about this already, man!
I'm with lua on this one. :rolleyes:

[DX HBK]

The way it is, DX, you're going to find fault with every single battle scene not only in SnS, but also in any fighting scenes from other shows. I'm suggesting you just drop this, or we can all just carry out with this pointless argument. ;)

Just for one last shot at this: You know, I'ver rewatched the scene, and it isn't as though Shana was aiming at the staff. I mean, you don't fight to aim for the weapon first, right? :rolleyes: The way she was fighting was to attack Hecate in the quickest and most direct way possible as dictated probably by her instinct, emotion and perhaps even a different train of thought from what you suggested.

No offense, but your suggestion is flawed (but interesting) at the very beginning because the scene doesn't show us if Hecate has already taken up her staff to parry before Shana tried to strike her. I'd like to see even the most seasoned warrior determine WHERE Hecate's fingers were accurately before she raised up her staff. There are so many possibilities for her; Hecate could dodge, parry the blow in the centre, step back and fire an Aster at her with the right timing. What makes you think Shana is the only one capable of thinking in this exchange of blows?

Besides, it's the same old argument: You could see her heart wasn't in it to fight Hecate, but she was actually more concerned with Yuuji. The moment he went into a freefall, she turned from the fight as though it never happened. The division of her attention might be a reason why she was unable to 'think logically' in that sense.

Re-watching the scene where Johan and Pheles finally met up was touching, but it gave me the chills too; Just exactly how insanely powerful is this Sabrac?

I even recalled that Wilhelmina was almost killed by him, but rescued by Pheles and Johan, but that's another story.

Remove the means of defense before striking a critical blow. Would you try going for the kill when the enemy has means of defense against it?

I'm sure Hecate could also think in the exchange of blows. It could make a better melee exchange than just a simple slash being blocked.

Shana was putting her heart into the fight while Yuji was floating. Just look at her face when fighting the threat closest to him.
She pulled back quickly when Yuji began to fall. At that point of realization, the logic in her reason to save Yuji would dictate this: break away from fighting the enemy and go after Yuji. It boils down to priority in achieving a goal.






Weren't you just arguing previously that adrenaline allows one to think logically and hence rationally? So now you're saying that Adrenaline might feed into that irrationality?

Also think of it this way, adrenaline is produced during periods of stress, in which your mind (hence your logical processing ability) is already not working at its optimum.



The very fact that you think Shana, who was placed in a situation where the one she loves is in danger, discovering hecate is making her move and add that with the fact that Johan as well as silver is somehow inside Yuji, not to mention Pheles who was also after Yuji/Johan, then you go and call her not acting logically a mystery simply comfounds me.

I don't mean any offence or wish to argue but don't you feel that what you are saying is a bit unreasonable? You expect someone to act and think logically in those situations..



I'd say that having the logic to realise Hecate is the cause is already a step above what normal people would of done and maybe that's a result of her being a Flame Haze. I'd say kudos to her for that instance of sound judgement, which has already surpassed that of normal human reactions during those situations, expecting anymore would be too unrealistic.



Indeed Shana did have a bit of logic at that time and like i said, that was already beyond superhuman in the context of the situation at hand. Expecting anymore would be unreasonable.



Those are good tactics i'd admit but ask yourself, in the time between her flying out to meet Hecate does she really have the capacity to think all that, then act on it within those miliseconds. Battles involving time in the miliseconds, reflexes are more important then logical thinking.

Consider why we have a reflex arc system built into our bodies. Because if you put your hands on a hot plate and it takes your brain to think "geeze it's hot i should remove it" then you remove it, let's just say there's would be alot of burnt hands. Certain processes if gone through the normal way i.e. sensory>nerve>spinal cord> brain would take too long then say the reflex arc which just bypasses the brain.

The state of mind determines the rational and irrational behavior. Adrenaline just serves to enhance either one.

When a person is on an "adrenal rush", the senses are heightened to achieve greater awareness. The body begans to speed up processes to an emergency state. To that person, time relative to their surroundings seem to slow a bit which would allow them to relatively think and act faster.

Unreasonable seems a bit heavy there but I doubt I'm demanding overboard, unlike those who ask for more fanservice.

Figuring the cause to a series of steps isn't that difficult. You underestimate the true potential for humans to comprehend things in such short periods.

That period of time was more than enough to figure out a simple plan or tactic. It was only 3 to 5 seconds anyways and Shana had that combat state of mind on full throttle so she could in that duration.

The majority of the fight scenes in this season don't seem as intense as they used to be, despite the new things. I could go on with this, despite seeing others gnash their teeth at me.
Other than ban me for eternity (something I ain't afraid of), what's the worse that could happen if I went on?

[holyman282]

Unreasonable seems a bit heavy there but I doubt I'm demanding overboard, unlike those who ask for more fanservice.

:twitch:? Fanservice? I honestly don't think that unreasonable is a heavy word in this situation. You seem unsatisfied with Shana's actions in those moments and unreasonably argue that she could of done better in those situations.

Figuring the cause to a series of steps isn't that difficult. You underestimate the true potential for humans to comprehend things in such short periods.

Certainly humans are capable of surpassing their limits in certain situations, but can you honestly say that if you were put in the situation Shana was in that you would do those things?

That period of time was more than enough to figure out a simple plan or tactic. It was only 3 to 5 seconds anyways and Shana had that combat state of mind on full throttle so she could in that duration.

Can you provide any actualy reference? Maybe a newspaper article talking about a person coming up with a sound logical plan within 3 to 5 seconds, or something similar? Perhaps a scientific journal.

I don't mean to offend you, it's just that without any evidence, you'd have to expect people to believe what you are saying on your words alone.

The majority of the fight scenes in this season don't seem as intense as they used to be, despite the new things. I could go on with this, despite seeing others gnash their teeth at me.

There weren't alot of fight scenes to begin with this season and i thought they were on par with or surpass that of the first season.


Other than ban me for eternity (something I ain't afraid of), what's the worse that could happen if I went on?

I'm sure most people don't want to offend you in any way but I just feel you are trying to hard to find fault in something, that in all circumstances most people would overlook. Also those faults can be justified and justified quite simply.

Compared to how much depth you had to go to, to justify why Shana should be able to think logically. It just means that your point is harder to argue because it's more unbelievable.

There is a saying that the "simplest solution is usually the correct one"

The simple solution is that Shana at that moment was too stressed and in a state of emotional turmoil to think logically. Evidence can be provided by the way she was acting in those events. See? Simple.

A complicated response would be to try and justify why Shana could think logically and made you and me go into details about adrenaline and the brain lobes ect.

[DX HBK]

:twitch:? Fanservice? I honestly don't think that unreasonable is a heavy word in this situation. You seem unsatisfied with Shana's actions in those moments and unreasonably argue that she could of done better in those situations.



Certainly humans are capable of surpassing their limits in certain situations, but can you honestly say that if you were put in the situation Shana was in that you would do those things?



Can you provide any actualy reference? Maybe a newspaper article talking about a person coming up with a sound logical plan within 3 to 5 seconds, or something similar? Perhaps a scientific journal.

I don't mean to offend you, it's just that without any evidence, you'd have to expect people to believe what you are saying on your words alone.



There weren't alot of fight scenes to begin with this season and i thought they were on par with or surpass that of the first season.




I'm sure most people don't want to offend you in any way but I just feel you are trying to hard to find fault in something, that in all circumstances most people would overlook. Also those faults can be justified and justified quite simply.

Compared to how much depth you had to go to, to justify why Shana should be able to think logically. It just means that your point is harder to argue because it's more unbelievable.

There is a saying that the "simplest solution is usually the correct one"

The simple solution is that Shana at that moment was too stressed and in a state of emotional turmoil to think logically. Evidence can be provided by the way she was acting in those events. See? Simple.

A complicated response would be to try and justify why Shana could think logically and made you and me go into details about adrenaline and the brain lobes ect.

More likely disappointed on the time gaps between attacks and counterattacks and how they were used. I might have forgotten the whole point that this is anime and the small details about combat skills or tactics don't hold that much weight.

It's hard to think about the actual circumstances or imagine myself in Shana's place at that point in the first place. Let me ask you: Have you ever got into real fights in your life? Ones that were close to the "kill or be killed"?

The process isn't that elaborate as you would imagine in Shana's case. You're thinking a bit too complex on a simple notion of where to strike your sword at. Why would I need a scientific journal to explain something that happens in a cartoon or a piece of fiction? Flame Haze are the epitome of what they are in comparison to normal humans, which means that they could achieve a number of things beyond the human range of possible understanding.

That last comment just came out in response to others saying that I should cease the discussion about this.

[cnnydz]

wtf, i can't believe u guys r still talking about this. imo shana was very aware of everything and i think she used the right tactics (attacking hecate head on).

[CapoExecutor]

So, Dantalion is still alive. Where the heck is Domino? I can't recall if he made an appearance.

[serenade_beta]

So, Dantalion is still alive. Where the heck is Domino? I can't recall if he made an appearance.

Considering that he is Dantalion's Rinne, he/it is probably just at the doctor's lab.

[Owaranai Destiny]

DX, you're better off experiencing such life-and-death experiences than watching anime. Trust me; You really won't be satisfied with practically every single fighting scene. :rolleyes: I'm referring not only to anime, but to fictious shows with lots of action and fighting in particular.

With the pointless aside, I would like to turn my attention to the practically newly-minted coupling of Ogata and Tanaka. Considering they are actually holding hands now, it shouldn't be that long before they get official. ;) What I'm interested in as well as whether Tanaka can actually take the heat. He freaked out when the person he held dear was 'killed' before his very eyes in the episode before and in this one, he simply panicked with the Fuzetsu set up. What's going to become of him and his previously 'unshakeable' will to follow and help Margery in whatever she does?

[Triple_R]

DX, you're better off experiencing such life-and-death experiences than watching anime. Trust me; You really won't be satisfied with practically every single fighting scene. :rolleyes: I'm referring not only to anime, but to fictious shows with lots of action and fighting in particular.

With the pointless aside, I would like to turn my attention to the practically newly-minted coupling of Ogata and Tanaka. Considering they are actually holding hands now, it shouldn't be that long before they get official. ;) What I'm interested in as well as whether Tanaka can actually take the heat. He freaked out when the person he held dear was 'killed' before his very eyes in the episode before and in this one, he simply panicked with the Fuzetsu set up. What's going to become of him and his previously 'unshakeable' will to follow and help Margery in whatever she does?


Yeah, Tanaka's reaction to the Fuzetsu set up was a "WTF?!" moment for me. He seemed so cool, calm and collected, and a great and useful supporter of Margery, for a very long time. Now, it's like he has a severe psychological disorder concerning Fuzetsus.

His focus has clearly shifted entirely away from Margery to Ogata, and that could lead to Margery becoming more independent again. She's already moving that way right now, of course.

And, Tanaka/Ogata is, right now, the most solid pairing in Shakugan no Shana. Yuji/Shana is a close second though, as I think that Yoshida is going to have a hard time competing due to how she can't rush to Yuji's rescue like Shana can.

[holyman282]

Yeah, Tanaka's reaction to the Fuzetsu set up was a "WTF?!" moment for me. He seemed so cool, calm and collected, and a great and useful supporter of Margery, for a very long time. Now, it's like he has a severe psychological disorder concerning Fuzetsus.

I actually thought that scene was very nicely done, it really showed the psychological trauma experienced by Tanaka when he saw the person he liked getting all mangled then brought back to life.

[Silverwyrm]

His focus has clearly shifted entirely away from Margery to Ogata, and that could lead to Margery becoming more independent again. She's already moving that way right now, of course.


I can't remember his name now but the other guy usually with Tanaka...I have noticed hes stepping in more and putting in his say, he seems to want to do something very badly but isn't sure how yet. I don't see him moving away from Margery as Tanaka has been

[teachopvutru]

I can't remember his name now but the other guy usually with Tanaka...I have noticed hes stepping in more and putting in his say, he seems to want to do something very badly but isn't sure how yet. I don't see him moving away from Margery as Tanaka has been

Yea, kinda amusing when you look at it. In the beginning, Tanaka + Sato = best friends. Then when Margery came, they still always sticked together. Now, each to his own, and each of one gets farther apart, and the cause for both are 'woman'. :heh:

[Triple_R]

I can't remember his name now but the other guy usually with Tanaka...I have noticed hes stepping in more and putting in his say, he seems to want to do something very badly but isn't sure how yet. I don't see him moving away from Margery as Tanaka has been

Agreed. I think that Sato has big plans as well. Perhaps he still wants to be a Flame Haze? It'll be interesting to find out.

[alvinkhorfire]

Since he wants to be a Flame haze, let him be. He has the determination to fight even though he knows it is dangerous for him to fight. The way he challenged Yuji to Ramen eating challenge at episode 4 shows he has determination.

[Triple_R]

Since he wants to be a Flame haze, let him be. He has the determination to fight even though he konws it is dangerous for him to fight. The way he challenged Yuji to Ramen eating challenge at episode 4 shows he has determination.

I agree. I think that the only thing stopping him at this point is that Margery doesn't want another Flame Haze death on her conscience.

[Kabitzin]

It's awfully convenient for Tanaka to really be stepping out of the way, so that Satou can have more alone time with Marjorie. I wonder if Satou will be able to get stronger and woo Marjorie so that he and Tanaka can be friends again and go on double dates =D.

[OkamiNoKaze]

Great episode with a great fight, though a bit chaotic and hard to follow.