View Full Version : Shakugan no Shana II - Episode 16 Discussion / Poll
Pellissier
2008-01-31, 10:49
Welcome to the discussion thread for Shakugan no Shana II, Episode 16.
Thread Guidelines
Raw requests and offers are not permitted anywhere on this forum.
Spoilers about future events must not be posted in this thread.
If you need to reference something that would spoil a future event, reply directly with a private message (http://forums.animesuki.com/faq.php?faq=vb_board_usage#faq_vb_pm_explain).
Discuss your expectations of the episode if it has not aired yet.
Be polite to your fellow forum members.
Please try to keep the discussion on topic.
Spoiler Policy
Any spoiler that reveals future events, even under a spoiler tag, will be deleted.
Spoiler tags should still be used where appropriate.
Adding a Spoiler tag:
spoiler.gif
Just highlight your spoiler and click the button found
on the "Quick Reply" and "Reply to Thread" forms.
Make sure that you include a title for the spoiler!
Please use the Report button if you see any spoilers:
report.gif
Click the button found to the left of the post, just under the poster's avatar.
Using the Report button is anonymous and helps the Moderators
to locate and deal with problems quickly.
Posting prohibited spoilers may result in a ban.
Note: Reporting a post does not mean the poster will be banned instantly.
The Moderators will use bans if warnings are repeatedly ignored.
wushubaka
2008-01-31, 14:50
yay for new OP!
hayate-sama
2008-01-31, 14:56
Hurray, new OP new character, and the quality is perfect, Our cry baby Yuji finally got his bloodsucker and he fight damn so good, I 'm too impress about the music but Yuji really kick ass
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z234/hayate-sama_vns/01.jpg
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z234/hayate-sama_vns/03.jpg
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z234/hayate-sama_vns/05.jpg
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z234/hayate-sama_vns/06.jpg
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z234/hayate-sama_vns/07.jpg
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z234/hayate-sama_vns/08.jpg
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z234/hayate-sama_vns/10.jpg
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z234/hayate-sama_vns/09.jpg
minhtam1638
2008-01-31, 15:01
Oh, my gosh. Being a KOTOKO fan myself, I really would love to hear the new OP.
Looking awesome
Also promising Sabrac is now featured in the opening...going to be interesting :)
Hmm, Margery and Bel-Peol are very sexy
Wow, wow, wow. A well directed OP with plenty of awesome scenes in store for the rest of the series (like oh so wonderful Yuij with sword action).
Also, that's the kind of KOTOKO i love to hear.
karinvampire
2008-01-31, 15:29
interesting it's a great op.
Samanosuke
2008-01-31, 15:36
I love the new opening and ending , as expected of Kotoko .
I also love how in the opening , we see first Sabrac , and also the scene when you see Yuuji and Shana trying to hold hands and the glass shatters.
overall it was a slow episode , lot of talking , but with only so few episode remaining I can see/imagine how they are going to end this season .
It wasn't the completely boring as I thought since I was expecting the school life to return. Pretty interesting episode really. Setting up for a lot of things to come, definitely looking forward to it.
Yuji is FINALLY turning back into his composure self (which for some reason he lost during season 2). The big sword is back.........YAY!!!! GO YUJI!!!!!!
Shadow Angel
2008-01-31, 16:12
Anyone know the name of the song playing in the new opening?
minhtam1638
2008-01-31, 16:13
Anyone know the name of the song playing in the new opening?
KOTOKO - Blaze
teachopvutru
2008-01-31, 16:20
New OP doesn't sound as good as I have hoped it to be but it LOOKS very cool O_o
Kaisos Erranon
2008-01-31, 16:20
YES SWORD YES.
If Wuss Yuji starts becoming less like Wuss Yuji this series will improve immensely.
And the new OP is called "Blaze".
Deathkillz
2008-01-31, 16:20
Slower than previous but it is expected :p
Not bad though, the plot is definitely moving. Already we can see some epix scenes to come fom the new OP. Yuuji swinging around the bad ass sword - he is going to be useful for once! :D
Yoshida is in dilemma whether to gain power or not...drama :rolleyes:
A very good opening. I like the song and Yuji swinging Blutsauger like this is just AWESOME!
Yoshida is in dilemma whether to gain power or not...drama :rolleyes:
She is such a drama queen. :D
He was able to swing around Blutsauger and wasn't such a wuss at the end of season 1. He started out as not a wuss in season 2, but some how reverted back to being a wuss....glad to see he's getting some of his resolve back, later is better than never I guess.
Xellos-_^
2008-01-31, 16:59
i am more interested in Hecated reaction to the bird at the end.
How did he get the Blutsauger back?
Shana like became the owner of it after those 2 siblings died. It's kept locked away in her cloak, along with VARIOUS other things in there....
CapoExecutor
2008-01-31, 17:06
Last time I checked, Blutsauger was still in the Seireiden at the end of Season 1. Shana couldn't have been holding it in her coat.
Is there some sort of theme to the colors that the three were portrayed in?
Shana in Red
Yuji in Blue
Kazumi in Yellow
Hecate at the end seems to have a bit of Konoe's behavior regarding the bird but who knows?
Dark Wing
2008-01-31, 17:44
Last time I checked, Blutsauger was still in the Seireiden at the end of Season 1. Shana couldn't have been holding it in her coat.
She dosen't need too magic remember...:heh:
Is there some sort of theme to the colors that the three were portrayed in?
Shana in Red
Yuji in Blue
Kazumi in Yellow
Hecate at the end seems to have a bit of Konoe's behavior regarding the bird but who knows?
No idea...so your guess is as good as everyone else.:p
Anyway I'm liking the new OP but could they move the story a little faster. We've been waiting a long time for this...
A very good opening. I like the song and Yuji swinging Blutsauger like this is just AWESOME!
She is such a drama queen. :D
No way, showing up every 3 seconds and whining about irrelevant stuff that was resolved 3 episodes ago (and 2 episodes before that, and 3 episodes before that, and the season before that, and ...yea) is a perfectly admirable trait in any character :p
we need even more Hecate :D
Anyway I'm liking the new OP but could they move the story a little faster. We've been waiting a long time for this...
In fact... people have to understand that the producers have only so much novels left to work with, and unless we want an anime original ending (since the last novel is coming next month), the production studio should worry about leaving enough material for a last, 1 cour season. So I'd suggest people to mentally prepare themselves for some stretching :heh:
Anyway, I think people are starting to criticize Kazumi for the sake for it and not paying attention to what she has to say (and just classifying it into the whining department). After all Pheles only fueled her worries, gave her a roundabout solution(summoning Pheles in exchange for her life doesn't sounds like something would be willing to do at the blink of an eyey :heh:) and furthermore she was presented for the first time to the phenomena of having one's existence erased, so I'd say this is just about enough for a normal human to be in mental turmoil (which is what Yoshida is supposed to represent, don't blame the messenger for the message :p)
Anyway I'm liking the new OP but could they move the story a little faster. We've been waiting a long time for this...
I love this comment, just because when you consider the past few episodes the story's actually been going faster than it should be (not that I mind), it suddenly loses meaning.
Is there some sort of theme to the colors that the three were portrayed in?
Shana in Red
Yuji in Blue
Kazumi in Yellow
Might be a theme that I could try winging a guess at.
Shana has red to represent the passion and love she feels for Yuji. But it also could represent sin and sacrifice, a foreboding element on what she might have to do.
Yuji has blue to represent faith and spiritual innocence he holds despite his current predicament. While blue might also represents a desire for peace, the irony could be the methods used to achieve it.
Kazumi has yellow to represent hope but it could also represent deceit or cowardice. Might have to do something about that crucifix Hougu.
In fact... people have to understand that the producers have only so much novels left to work with, and unless we want an anime original ending (since the last novel is coming next month), the production studio should worry about leaving enough material for a last, 1 cour season. So I'd suggest people to mentally prepare themselves for some stretching :heh:
Anyway, I think people are starting to criticize Kazumi for the sake for it and not paying attention to what she has to say (and just classifying it into the whining department). After all Pheles only fueled her worries, gave her a roundabout solution(summoning Pheles in exchange for her life doesn't sounds like something would be willing to do at the blink of an eyey :heh:) and furthermore she was presented for the first time to the phenomena of having one's existence erased, so I'd say this is just about enough for a normal human to be in mental turmoil (which is what Yoshida is supposed to represent, don't blame the messenger for the message :p)
Isn't it because she doesn't say anything really useful, profound or novel that people get tired of her little monologues?
I mean...the whole concept of having one's existence erased isn't really grounds for mental turmoil...she has been through several experiences where the threat of death and the concept of one's own mortality has turned up, and she knows fully well about the concept of existence from seeing it with her own eyes. If she didn't understand the implications, it's only because of her own naivette and refusal to face the truth, much as Sakai refused to do so in the first season (which I also felt was painfully stretched out for far too long). If she didn't fully realize the implications of that and her own role until Pheles spelled it out for her, that's her own fault isn't it?
The other thing is, even if you need someone to fill that role of conveying that message, Yuuji already filled that role in the 1st half of season 1 and even part of season 2. We don't need to see it again in every one of his friends as they go through the same dilemma.
Sure the anime is running out of material, and it's reasonable to have a slow-paced episode after the last 3.
But they could easily focus on people with more interesting backgrounds - Pheles, Johan, Rammie, Hecate, etc. etc. They could go back and cover the background of Wilhelmina and the previous war, or Phele's past. There's a lot of good, interesting, and useful material the anime could use. They could even do the calm after the storm-type episode without Yoshida whining every 3 scenes. :p
lua thien
2008-01-31, 18:51
Interesting that there were blue embers for Yuji in the new OP as Shana has her usual red embers. I wonder if Yuji gets any flaming hair in the coming episodes.
It's also interesting that the 2nd ED has images of the bad guys appearing for the first time.
Sterling01
2008-01-31, 19:01
In fact... people have to understand that the producers have only so much novels left to work with, and unless we want an anime original ending (since the last novel is coming next month), the production studio should worry about leaving enough material for a last, 1 cour season. So I'd suggest people to mentally prepare themselves for some stretching :heh:
Uh, what are you talking about? With how many things happened in vol 16 there's no way it could end the next volume.
Sterling01
2008-01-31, 19:38
I wonder who these black flames belong to.
http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/9632/shakugannoshanaiiop2larun0.th.jpg (http://img82.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shakugannoshanaiiop2larun0.jpg)
Not that I don't know :heh::heh:
serenade_beta
2008-01-31, 20:05
OP-Besides for the very early parts, it was awesome! Sabrac, Bloodsucker (Blutsauger, etc.)-wielding Yuuji, the action in general!
Of course, my opinion for the actual song is worse... 3/10. At least the animation distracts me...
As expected, after a few exciting action-packed episodes, we start to cool down. Kazumi thinks a lot, the Flame Hazes start to research, Bal Masque begins to move, Fumina is forgotten (NOOO! x infinte), and Yuuji starts to train with Mr. Engulfed in Self-Love's giant sword.
ED-Like the other Shana EDs, just a bunch of still pictures. At least this ED is more watchable and has a better song compared to the first one for season II. Still isn't as good as the first season's second ED...
Random Thoughts:
-Sayonara, Ike... Have fun working... :heh:
-Woah! Silver started moving from what Hecate gave her.
Then it moved even more... kinda of scary now... :upset:
-Dantalion needs more lines. I find the way he talks and everything funny. :heh:
And Domino makes his reappearance!
-For Pheles to give Kazumi such a double-edged treasure!! User dies to call Pheles?! Not exactly the best trade... since die=completely forgotten in this case...
Don't use it, Kazumi! She should have thrown it away!
Just carry a cellphone, Pheles.
-Seems Tanaka can't stand the Crimson World anymore after that traumatizing experience with Ogata... Good decision, boy.
Meanwhile, Satou has the opposite feeling. He wants to delve deeper...
-I completely forgot he existed, but Yuuji's dad is leaving! :heh:
-Wonder what is the meaning of the last scene with Hecate and the bird...? Fuminaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
Preview: Each Person's Path; more cool down, Tanaka leaves the Crimson World dealings?
I wonder who these black flames belong to.
http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/9632/shakugannoshanaiiop2larun0.th.jpg (http://img82.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shakugannoshanaiiop2larun0.jpg)
Not that I don't know :heh::heh:
Full of lies! :heh:
minhtam1638
2008-01-31, 20:24
Might be a theme that I could try winging a guess at.
Shana has red to represent the passion and love she feels for Yuji. But it also could represent sin and sacrifice, a foreboding element on what she might have to do.
Yuji has blue to represent faith and spiritual innocence he holds despite his current predicament. While blue might also represents a desire for peace, the irony could be the methods used to achieve it.
Kazumi has yellow to represent hope but it could also represent deceit or cowardice. Might have to do something about that crucifix Hougu.
Faith, Hope, and Love? You're kidding me right? Actually, it could be quite possible, since the number 3 has had a lot of exposure in the Shana series (I mean, come on, there's three of everything if you look closely).
Just to comment on the new OP, I absolutely loved it, but it doesn't really fit Shana's kind of theme. But if you really listened to KOTOKO's music, she doesn't really do much of that kind of thing. I mean, Mami Kawada's JOINT is comparable to KOTOKO's Suppuration -core-, which isn't really KOTOKO's style.
kimchipride
2008-01-31, 21:43
WOW
That was a great opening with great animation. I wish Shana animation was like that all the time. That would make my view on the show a little higher.
mist2123
2008-01-31, 21:46
I liked the episode and OP but the OP makes you feel like this is a harem anime.
shadowWizz
2008-01-31, 22:42
Didn't think i catch the coss-shaped Hougu's name...
Anyways, i noticed that there are some similarities between that particular Hougu and the pendant which Shana has that summons Alastor.
Both of them (the Hougu and Shana's pendant), are used for summoning and kills the host. Except that we already know that in Shana's case, she'll be fine because we saw her use it (tenpa jyousai) the last season.
So, my question would be that does any one knows that if Yoshida Kazumi will use that Hougu?
If yes, will she survive the summon?
Many thanks in advance to anyone who can answer the question... :heh:
I mean...the whole concept of having one's existence erased isn't really grounds for mental turmoil...she has been through several experiences where the threat of death and the concept of one's own mortality has turned up, and she knows fully well about the concept of existence from seeing it with her own eyes. If she didn't understand the implications, it's only because of her own naivette and refusal to face the truth, much as Sakai refused to do so in the first season (which I also felt was painfully stretched out for far too long). If she didn't fully realize the implications of that and her own role until Pheles spelled it out for her, that's her own fault isn't it?
IMHO there is a whole world of difference between having your life eternally on danger and having your whole existence been forgotten. Moreover, It would be perfectly understandable if she wasn't aware of the fact people whose power of existance fades away gets forgotten, given that it'd seem that no one has cared to sit down and explain things to her, other that what was strictly necessarily, and even if it wasn't the case, personally I think that there is nothing sadder in this world than having no one to remember you. In this respect, I'm glad when a literary character shares my feelings.
In any case, I won't disagree that she suffers from truth denial and naivette to some degree... but she has shown those traits since her early character definition. She has shown a definite development throughout the series, but you can still see that she hasn't entirely surpassed her original defects... and I find that entirely believable. Her character is consistant, and yet developing. She hasn't grown suddendly, yet she has shown steady development. Even if the character in question isn't of my entire liking, I find her character description to be quite good (even if the script doesn't benefit her) and that makes me forgive many of her faults.
The other thing is, even if you need someone to fill that role of conveying that message, Yuuji already filled that role in the 1st half of season 1 and even part of season 2. We don't need to see it again in every one of his friends as they go through the same dilemma.
Really? I think that it was not much of a problem since the point wasn't so excessively stressed beyond the point of showing her having similar doubts without lingering too much on it. And even if it was the case, it wasn't as much of her character's fault as it was the scriptwriter's :p
In the end, it's not a matter of whose opinion's is right, since in this case it's all about subjectiveness and certain factors you care about more than others, so, to each to his own, I'd guess ^_^ (It's just that I feel compelled to express my opinion when I see so much Yoshida hate, I guess it's for the sake of balance :p)
Uh, what are you talking about? With how many things happened in vol 16 there's no way it could end the next volume.
My bad. I shouldn't be posting rumors as proven facts. But there has been an insistent rumour since early 2007 that volume 17 would be Shana's last. Still, I apologize for the confusion.
Didn't think i catch the coss-shaped Hougu's name...
Giralda I think it is.
Phantasmagoria
2008-02-01, 03:39
Right, I shall comment on the new OP and ED.
As an I've fan, I am quite disappointed.
There's nothing wrong with the singing(to a large extent), but it's the flow and animation that is.
The first opening [JOINT] fits in perfectly, many of the scenes are created and matches the song's tempo, making the whole 1.5 minutes so enjoyable and entertaining. However, we can barely see something similar in OP2. Yea, we can call it a change in style and whatever but, the fact remains. It's like, having a opening full of happy faces, and giving it a sad song. That's a bad combination. Despite all the negative things I have said, the opening still far surpasses alot other anime :D I just have higher expectations, given that the vocalist is KOTOKO.
That aside, if we compare BLAZE separately with Being, I am very glad to comment that BLAZE has a lot of potential. Many of KOTOKO's songs are like that. You have to repeat a few times and try to catch on, then start to get "addicted," falling in love with it(BLAZE.)
The first 40 second reminds me of Short Circuit(Hmm? Some-what child-ish..), the rest of the other 50 second reminds me of Siren(I don't know why..), except the whole feel is different, in-between happiness and sadness.
ED2.. Disregarding animation, I am actually attracted to its creativity and style.
Still have to listen a few more times, but for a song with the quality of 192kbps, I am really amazed. Till then, 12/3/08 is the release date of this single, patiently awaiting for loss-less :D
Kinny Riddle
2008-02-01, 04:17
New OP "BLAZE" is OK for me, upon repeated viewings, though "JOINT" is still better. :D At least we get to see Yuji kick some ass at last as a way to make up for being a helpless wimp in the last two episodes. :heh:
New ED "Sociometry" is slightly better than "triangle". Animation is defintely better and more eye-catching, with the flashy lights surrounding the characters.
- Looks like poor Ike is resigned to being the series comic relief.
- What a gift Pheles has given Yoshida. Pheles can tell how painful it must be for Yoshida to watch from the sides as Yuji and Shana grow ever closer to each other. She offers Yoshida a "way out", a form of suicide by using the Houguu and have her PoE disappear and be forgotten, since she reckoned Yoshida is more or less being "forgotten" anyway. Be assured that Yoshida will be playing an important role when the time comes.
- Bal Masque lays low for now and bides its time. Meanwhile, Hecate seems to be having some resonance with the memories she collected from Fumina. All bets are open that this original factor will lead to an original anime ending, just like the first series.
- Bel-Peol, Hecate, "Professor" Dantalion and his servant Rinne, Domino, all appear, but where's Sydonay? Already I'm beginning to miss him.
- Next episode seems to also focus on Tanaka questioning his commitment with Margery after the scare with Ogata nearly killed, and this would lead to tensions between him and Satou.
- Speaking of Satou, I still think he's criminally underdeveloped by both author Takahashi and the scenario writers. I certainly like to know how he ended up being estranged from his rich family. He's like the rich version of Tomoya from Clannad.
Next episode's title is "Sorezore no Michi" (Each to their own path), which is probably one of the most cliched episode titles I've seen in anime and manga. I think I've seen like 10 anime with an episode with such a title already. :heh:
Bel-Peol, Hecate, "Professor" Dantalion and his servant Rinne, Domino, all appear, but where's Sydonay? Already I'm beginning to miss him.
Remember the end of episode 2 of the 2nd season? Sydonay said he was out 'to do something' but warned Bel-Peol not to do anything to Hecate while he is away.
Kinny Riddle
2008-02-01, 05:38
Remember the end of episode 2 of the 2nd season? Sydonay said he was out 'to do something' but warned Bel-Peol not to do anything to Hecate while he is away.
Thanks for reminding. Wonder if giving Hecate that bracelet and cloning herself so she can obtain memories from Yuji counts as "doing something"?
Whitemoon648
2008-02-01, 06:20
After watching this episode, i have a feeling that Yuji's dad might actually have a bigger role on the series.
I am thinking He might be a Flame haze or Goze no tomogara. He might even Be Sabrak. I mean How did Yuji got his Reji Mago? We know his Soul was eaten and thus us he is a mystess. he is alife thx to reji mago. Some one must have putten it inside him. So i am not counting yuji's dad out yet.
teachopvutru
2008-02-01, 06:33
After watching this episode, i have a feeling that Yuji's dad might actually have a bigger role on the series.
I am thinking He might be a Flame haze or Goze no tomogara. He might even Be Sabrak. I mean How did Yuji got his Reji Mago? We know his Soul was eaten and thus us he is a mystess. he is alife thx to reji mago. Some one must have putten it inside him. So i am not counting yuji's dad out yet.
A Hougu randomly transfers to a Torch (hence why Wilhelmina wanted to kill Yuji in the first season, so that the Reiji Maigo would pass on randomly to a Torch and it would be harder to track where the Hougu is). It's believed that Yuji acquires Reiji Maigo that way (although there may be more to the story than that). In a way, Yuji is rather lucky..
Whitemoon648
2008-02-01, 06:53
A Hougu randomly transfers to a Torch (hence why Wilhelmina wanted to kill Yuji in the first season, so that the Reiji Maigo would pass on randomly to a Torch and it would be harder to track where the Hougu is). It's believed that Yuji acquires Reiji Maigo that way (although there may be more to the story than that). In a way, Yuji is rather lucky..
Well i was under impression that Wilhemina was going to kill Yuji and hide reji Maigo.
Also while It was said that Probably Reji maigo was transfered randomly to Yuji, We still know one can put Reji Mago inside other ( thus Johan and Pheles). So there is ( or might be) a small possbility that some one used Reji mago on him. Still i doubt that is the case but still there could be a chance *_*.
Shana has red to represent the passion and love she feels for Yuji. But it also could represent sin and sacrifice, a foreboding element on what she might have to do.
shana's color is guren (lotus red) which represents judgment.
minhtam1638
2008-02-01, 07:15
shana's color is guren (lotus red) which represents judgment.
But that would be solely because of Alastor, the Flame of Heavens. There has to be more than that.
But that would be solely because of Alastor, the Flame of Heavens. There has to be more than that.
i think lotus red (guren) is the color of the flame of judgment in Buddhism teachings, so it is constantly used in animes. in code geass they have guren nishiki (red mech), which in a sense is used to bring judgment to the Britannia empire.
CapoExecutor
2008-02-01, 08:58
The pieces of the chess board are set. But whose move is it now?
If Kazumi could take a trip to Friange's old hideout...
...so far, she's started a small collection with two Guze relics: an amulet from Khamsin and a Hougu from Pheles.
HayashiTakara
2008-02-01, 15:32
OMGWTFBBQ, Yuji wielding the Blutzeiger like a crazy badass, *wets pants in anticipation*
PhantomX
2008-02-01, 16:13
The pieces of the chess board are set. But whose move is it now?
If Kazumi could take a trip to Friange's old hideout...
...so far, she's started a small collection with two Guze relics: an amulet from Khamsin and a Hougu from Pheles.
Yuji's collection is more formidable though. He has a ring that protects him from flames, and a sword that damages via power of existance.
Yoshida can 1) Move in a fuuzetsu and 2) kill herself.
I think she got the short end of the stick as far as Hougu are concerned ^_^
The OP looks good...though I still prefer the "Joint" OP though. And what's up with the set of eyes :heh:
serenade_beta
2008-02-01, 18:01
Each's Respective Paths
Yuuji is training the way he wants.
The intention was based off, against Hecate's seal, that if "he can't run or hide", then he has to become stronger.
At the same time, Satou, who has found his own path, tells Tanaka that he will also "follow Margery."
But, even though she is back to normal, the truth that he lost Ogata due to Margery causes Tanaka's heart to waver.
Also, to Shana and co., who cannot afford to make a careless move, gathering essential information has come to a stop.
That is because, in the information sent from Outlaw, there were too many documents that involved matters besides what they needed mixed in.
Wilhelmina beings to find this suspicious..
The only bone I have to pick is when did Shana get the Blutsauger back? Last time I checked, it was left in the Seireiden in Season 1 before the Tenpa Jyousai.
Whitemoon648
2008-02-01, 20:10
Another thing i thought about the episode, it would be funny that Phele gave her the item so she could test her. Like if she would sacrifice herself to help Yuji. Then if she would, then Pheles would try to have a contract with her and make Yushida-san a Flame haze. I mean like the whole you will die thing being a lie and just to her affection toward yuji? ( i mean pheles herself is a lover right?).
hayate-sama
2008-02-01, 20:32
Then if she would, then Pheles would try to have a contract with her and make Yushida-san a Flame haze. I mean like the whole you will die thing being a lie and just to her affection toward yuji? ( i mean pheles herself is a lover right?).
I like your ideal, then both Yosida and Pheles get what they want, Johan is in renji maigo after all
one shot kill two birds
Whitemoon648
2008-02-01, 21:06
I like your ideal, then both Yosida and Pheles get what they want, Johan is in renji maigo after all
one shot kill two birds
Also At the end of the OP, there is a scene showing all of the Flame hazes and then Yuji comes. All of them can fight, it would be wierd to add Yushida-san in there unless she is going to be a fighter too right?
teachopvutru
2008-02-01, 21:53
Also At the end of the OP, there is a scene showing all of the Flame hazes and then Yuji comes. All of them can fight, it would be wierd to add Yushida-san in there unless she is going to be a fighter too right?
I don't think it's weird to just add Kazumi there. Rather, speaking of OP and all, I wondered why they showed what looked like an Ike's confession to Kazumi in the first OP, when that didn't happen either. If anything, I think they messed up the pace of what they originally plan to produce this anime. Of course, that scene alone in the OP doesn't really tell anything.
I neither agree nor disagree to your theory.
hayate-sama
2008-02-01, 21:56
Also At the end of the OP, there is a scene showing all of the Flame hazes and then Yuji comes. All of them can fight, it would be wierd to add Yushida-san in there unless she is going to be a fighter too right?
so I wonder what title she will take?, BTW love your avatar. ^_^
I don't think it's weird to just add Kazumi there. Rather, speaking of OP and all, I wondered why they showed what looked like an Ike's confession to Kazumi in the first OP, when that didn't happen either. If anything, I think they messed up the pace of what they originally plan to produce this anime. Of course, that scene alone in the OP doesn't really tell anything.
Ike will confess to Yoshida beause if i remember correctly, It happened during the sabrac fight and its an novel original
And tiachopvutru, you are vietnamese right ? are you an member of VNsharing ?
lua thien
2008-02-01, 22:12
Pheles doesn't seem like the type to give any concern about human situations unless Johan gets involved.
My title guess for Yoshida:
"Barrister of Seductive Guidance"
teachopvutru
2008-02-01, 22:57
Ike will confess to Yoshida beause if i remember correctly, It happened during the sabrac fight and its an novel original
And tiachopvutru, you are vietnamese right ? are you an member of VNsharing ?
Yes, Ike would probably confess, but reason why I said they might messed up the pace they originally intended is because Ike didn't confess while the first OP was still there. But again, that alone doesn't really tell anything
And yes, I'm Vietnamese. I don't remember ever joining VNsharing though. If that person is still active, then it definitely isn't me.
HayashiTakara
2008-02-02, 04:40
IIRC the ending to the first season was an anime original, so the whole Blutzeiger thing is kinda out of place in terms of being "left" behind.
Anyway, Kazumi is pissing me off, she's constantly forcing herself into a world she doesn't belong, her selfishness of not wanting Shana to have Yuji is constantly irking me the wrong way.
teachopvutru
2008-02-02, 06:05
Anyway, Kazumi is pissing me off, she's constantly forcing herself into a world she doesn't belong, her selfishness of not wanting Shana to have Yuji is constantly irking me the wrong way.
Well, you can't blame someone for working hard... although I agree, probably to us Shana fans anyway, that she's a bit of an annoyance. I just hope she doesn't get overly obsessive, however, as it looks like she's going that way. Who knows whatever she will do next if she will become like that. :p
I like the new OP, but the song is not that good(but still nice to listen), and the ED song was nice as well.
This and coming episode will be a relax episode, but after few more episdoe will going onto action again ^^ - OP got some spoiler there. U2 starting to learn sword skill now, hope he can fight some enemy(but confirm can't fight those boss level enemy).
Kazumi got 1 more collection of the Hougu, but, I thought that Hougu was a good powerful item, but need to use her own existence o.O"
At the end, Hecate look to the sky, she want to go out to feel the world?
CapoExecutor
2008-02-02, 15:14
Even if the season can't get to the final conclusion of the silver arc, I doubt it would drag to a season 3. Rather, they could make a movie that directly follows up the conclusion of season 2 if it comes to that.
alvinkhorfire
2008-02-02, 16:14
I am so disappointed at Pheles' request to Yoshida. Pheles said to Yoshida that Yoshida's disappearance will not make any difference if she use that hougu. How selfish Pheles can be? I admire that Pheles is a powerful tomogara and is willing to stop consume human due to a promise with Johan, but her remark is way too much. Come on, just like serenade_beta said, just carry a handphone for communication purpose.
About the last scene with Hecate and the bird, I guess that the side effect of absorbing other person's existence and memory is that you may behave a bit like that person. Perhaps Yuji , Shana and rest of their friends should invite Hecate to amusement park. After all, Fumina once said that she wanted to go to amusment park again.
Even if the season can't get to the final conclusion of the silver arc, I doubt it would drag to a season 3. Rather, they could make a movie that directly follows up the conclusion of season 2 if it comes to that.
Just as Sterling01 siad, there is a lot of events happen in volume 16. At present, the material is not enough for season 3. But, I think (and I deeply hope) that there will be several new volumes of novel to be released in future. By then, it is game on for season 3!
Sterling01
2008-02-02, 16:18
Just so people know the new OP does show some things that happen in Vol 16.
Is there any actual concrete confirmation that Season 2 is only going to be 24 episodes?
teachopvutru
2008-02-02, 16:36
Is there any actual concrete confirmation that Season 2 is only going to be 24 episodes?
eh? I thought it was going to be 26 episodes... :(
eh? I thought it was going to be 26 episodes... :(
24 or 26..? Where are these numbers coming from?!
Hmm... I thought they could try compressing the remaining upcoming novel content they have yet to use while they extend the season.
lua thien
2008-02-02, 18:49
I am so disappointed at Pheles' request to Yoshida. Pheles said to Yoshida that Yoshida's disappearance will not make any difference if she use that hougu. How selfish Pheles can be? I admire that Pheles is a powerful tomogara and is willing to stop consume human due to a promise with Johan, but her remark is way too much. Come on, just like serenade_beta said, just carry a handphone for communication purpose.
Well, it's her way of saying you've seen too much but, unless you value your existence, then you are walking into the harshness of the Guze alone.
About the last scene with Hecate and the bird, I guess that the side effect of absorbing other person's existence and memory is that you may behave a bit like that person. Perhaps Yuji , Shana and rest of their friends should invite Hecate to amusement park. After all, Fumina once said that she wanted to go to amusment park again.
Hecate is literally the purity of essence but I guess it seems that Konoe's memories with Yuji and the experiences of humanity have some unforseen consequences. Ya think she might get bored in just reliving those memories of Konoe Fumina in a timeless cycle that Hecate would hunger for new memories?
So who would be the purity of form in the Shakugan no Shana universe?
24 or 26..? Where are these numbers coming from?!
I'm not aware of anything concrete, but as far as I know, only 8 DVDs have been listed on shopping sites (http://shop.frontierworks.jp/sakuhin.asp?workid=2018&feature_cls=1) at the moment. This is in line with season one which had 24 episodes and was released on 8 DVDs.
Masanori Ota
2008-02-03, 00:10
So who would be the purity of form in the Shakugan no Shana universe?
Spoken like a true Starcraft nerd, one who's read the manual with the included lore sections about the Xel'Naga one too many times. :cool:
Owaranai Destiny
2008-02-03, 05:55
I am so disappointed at Pheles' request to Yoshida. Pheles said to Yoshida that Yoshida's disappearance will not make any difference if she use that hougu. How selfish Pheles can be? I admire that Pheles is a powerful tomogara and is willing to stop consume human due to a promise with Johan, but her remark is way too much. Come on, just like serenade_beta said, just carry a handphone for communication purpose.
Ah, sounds logical. I under the impression, however, that Pheles probably doesn't give a shit about anything else as long as there's something related to Johan. I'm going to agree with what Tiamat said about her being obsessed with him, and however great their love might be to make her particularly selfish in our eyes, she IS obsessed. :heh:
She could be using Kazumi, or she could actually simply be giving a consolation prize to her. ("Thank you for your participation. To make yourself feel important, here's something that would help you actually achieve something for the one you loved, even if it kills you off.") I actually pity Kazumi here, because we all know what the outcome for her would be like. Either way, she probably would not be able to get together with Yuuji or at the very least, do something for him in the world he is in currently. What are the odds that she feels helpless, frustrated, left out and depressed?
Anh_Minh
2008-02-03, 07:45
I just finished watching the new op. The last scene was so funny.:heh:
I mean, everyone was just on the roof, watching the scenery or something... Except for Yuuji, who just had to strike that pose with his big sword.
Deathkillz
2008-02-03, 08:31
Gah pheles is so selfish. I don't like yoshida either but that request hits HARD!
Basically she can use it because noone cares if she dies - lawl what!? minus points for pheles (she is crazy -__-).
Now why didn't she give it to yuuji instead since I don't care if that little bugger dies :p Not that he will because he has unlimited power of existance :rolleyes:
Think pheles...think...
Alea Misa
2008-02-03, 09:14
Shana has red to represent the passion and love she feels for Yuji. But it also could represent sin and sacrifice, a foreboding element on what she might have to do.
Yuji has blue to represent faith and spiritual innocence he holds despite his current predicament. While blue might also represents a desire for peace, the irony could be the methods used to achieve it.
Kazumi has yellow to represent hope but it could also represent deceit or cowardice. Might have to do something about that crucifix Hougu.
Its interesting the color thing...
Imo, I think the color red for Shana relates to Alastor, for judgement, but he also had the capacity to love in the past. Though I think there is more to red for Shana...Red can be associated with courage, fire, action, or anger/temper, which are both apart of Shana's character. Red can also mean vitality, war, and survival, and that is usually what Shana has to deal with consistently.
As for Yuji, Blue is the color of water or sky, which most often is associated with communication, loyalty, truth, affection, friendship, emotions, mental strength, compassion, perception, protective, and calm, which is apart of Yuji's character. Yuji has a way of balancing out Shana's traits, and vice versa.
While Kazumi is Yellow, it is associated with awareness, expression, youth, brightness, warmth, playful, and mental activity, which fits her character pretty well, if you think about it.
As for the crucifix that Pheles gave her, I agree with Owaranai. Most likely the crucifix would mean sacrifice. Kazumi is only human, she doesn't belong in Shana and Yuji's world, but since she insists on associating with both of them and their situations and wants to be of use to them both, Pheles gave her something that she would be able to do. Kazumi cannot expect everything to go the way she planned, Shana and Yuji both learned that, and accept that, and Kazumi is no exception to that. Just because she cares, doesn't mean it will entitle her to everything she wants. At least Pheles gave her a choice for some sort of purpose and role, she can still choose what she wants, but this time she has a chance for her existence to mean something. I'm not sure about the exact words Pheles said to Kazumi, as I don't really understand Japanese, but perhaps, Kazumi's life would mean her current life (as her body doesn't have the capacity for Pheles), but not her entire existence. Though I'm not sure if this story has the cycle of death and rebirth, and reincarnation, but I don't remember it talking about that, so who knows.
alvinkhorfire
2008-02-03, 09:33
Now why didn't she give it to yuuji instead since I don't care if that little bugger dies :p Not that he will because he has unlimited power of existance :rolleyes:
Think pheles...think...
Well, the only reason I can think of is that when it is used, the hougu drains the power of existence of the summoner who is Yoshida until she can die. So, the best person to use it is defintely Yuji.
About the selfish remark from Pheles, she should realize that the world does not just revolve around Johan and her only. She really need to take consideration of others as well.
The way Yoshida ponders on whether she should use the hougu is not just she don't want to die. Besides that, if she chooses to use the hougu, she will disappear just like Fumina. The case of Fumina having no existence is giving her a lot of think of.
And, the bracelet that creates the faux vessel is actually a part of Bel Peol's deadly chains.
FlareKnight
2008-02-03, 09:53
Yeah that's Pheles for you. Kill yourself for the sake of me and Johan. Does she think anyone other than her cares that much about her love life? Talk about being self-absorbed. But guess in her eyes the life of someone like Kazumi is nothing in comparison to the value of her and Johan.
At least Yuji is working on getting something accomplished. Maybe doing something other than screaming even if we can understand he's got some things to deal with. Guess we've got to ignore that I'm pretty sure Blutsauger was left behind at the end of last season.
Do like the previous OP better, but at least we got to see some interesting things in this new one.
At least Pheles gave her a choice for some sort of purpose and role, she can still choose what she wants, but this time she has a chance for her existence to mean something.
That's an interesting point as Yuji made a similar choice in episode 3 of the first season when he decided to use his own existence to fix the damage caused by the fight with Friange. I believe he felt that his existence would live on in them if he chose to do this (not in the literal sense since he'd still be forgotten if his flame burns out).
YES! I've been predicting and hoping for a new OP for a few weeks now, since all the characters in OP1 have already appeared. Unfortunately, this OP only seems to show the Hecate knight thingy, the silver, and some strange men. However, for 8 episodes left, that's good. Especially since the season will probably end with another Bal Masque battle.
For the episode itself, it feels a lot like episode 14. It had a lot of actual motion, and for whatever reason, I really enjoyed it. However, they tend to overdramatacize a lot of trivial events. For instance, the departure of Yuji's dad. "You'll be fine won't you?" Followed by overly dramatic shock from Yuji... It's just a lot of what S2 has been about, since they're using too little plot material for too many episodes, so they need ways to burn seconds.
I'm going to give this episode a 7. Much higher than most of S2, but still not one I'd willingly rewatch.
Oh, and by the way, I absolutely LOVE the new ED. I'd rate it higher than S1 ED1.
The Best In The West
2008-02-03, 13:21
Not a great episode but still a good one.
Realy liked the new OP/ED song and animation.
Instead of having them hunt humans for their PoE, couldn't the Guze no Ou "farm-raise" humans on certain lands and the Tomogara could eat those instead?
Sterling01
2008-02-03, 13:36
Like Soylent Green
lol, i think SnF tried that, when margery found the haridan she said that SnH built a city for humans and created the haridan to monitor the humans.
Master Chibi
2008-02-03, 14:03
1. The thought of Yoshida blinking out of existence makes me absurdly happy. Hurry up and do it already woman.
2. The sudden little twist with Tanaka is nice, I like it.
3. Meh to everything else.
4. New OP and ED are superior to the previous ones.
Phantasmagoria
2008-02-03, 14:12
I feel that Yoshida should pay more attention to her surrounding.. there's a better guy waiting out there *cough* Megane-kun *cough*.
She's a nice character ..
The "oh-come-on-do-your-job-and-follow-me" jab is getting repetitive ... :(
lua thien
2008-02-03, 15:09
Instead of having them hunt humans for their PoE, couldn't the Guze no Ou "farm-raise" humans on certain lands and the Tomogara could eat those instead?
From a human POV, that's morally wrong.
From a Tomogara's POV... well, that's a restaurant for them.
Better yet, the death row inmates are about to be killed so why not take their PoE instead?
Honestly, to think that there would be Tomogara that would breed humans in the same manner as livestock, they are gonna need a lot of farms to surpass the demand.
Bonta Kun
2008-02-03, 15:11
1. The thought of Yoshida blinking out of existence makes me absurdly happy. Hurry up and do it already woman.
jumps on that bandwagon!
damn lass is just annoying now, it was bad enough hearing
"I won't lose"
"I won't lose either"
for the 1000th time, now she just chirps on and on about standing where Yuji is standing.
Spectacular_Insanity
2008-02-03, 16:40
I just saw this episode, and I liked it a lot. Other than the stuff with Yoshida (for once I fell she's being a bit of a fool---there is no need to risk her life for anything at this point), I liked the pacing of this episode. I also liked the new opening, which shows Yuji actually making himself useful for once. I am somewhat surprised that Yuji can lift Blutsauger in the first place, but I guess that's because he's not exactly human. In any case, I look forward to Yuji being able to fight for himself. 10/10
teachopvutru
2008-02-03, 17:32
...I am somewhat surprised that Yuji can lift Blutsauger...
Actually, he was already able to lift it back in the last episode of season 1.
Kisuke06
2008-02-03, 18:02
I think the best expression to describe this episode is 'calm before the storm'. And finally Yuji is going to fight, I have been waiting for this since season 1.
Also, I didn't really like neither the new OP nor the new ED.
Tiberium Wolf
2008-02-03, 18:10
I like the new OP animation. It was great. The song is just average. It's not catchy enough. The same about the ED.
I know it's already been talked about, but I just have to say it anyway. As if I needed more of a reason to like Pheles:
Yoshida: Why are you giving me this?
Pheles: Because you are a human who can use this Hougu. If you disappear, it won't hurt anyone.
Irenicus
2008-02-03, 19:17
Thank the gods for Pheles, she just gave Yoshida what she needs the most: a way to die and disappear for good! :D
I'm more sympathetic to Kazumi this time around since she actually has a cause to angst, but I really don't need yet another "I want to be where Sakai-kun is." Yes, woman. We get the point. Now use that awesome hougu and disappear or something.
Otherwise, I love the new Yuji. He gives the impression that he's thinking a lot right now, but also calm and composed; not to mention that huge-ass sword is perfect for him.
The OP is hilarious though; lol, people standing on the school roof looking at the sun, and Yuji just holds his sword like he's about to fight. :heh:
And finally, Hecate is interesting. I like her reaction at the end. Bel-Pel is just the usual evil witch villain who's really really evil, the Professor a generic Team Rocket villain, but Hecate's more sympathetic than the rest of the bunch.
However, they tend to overdramatacize a lot of trivial events. For instance, the departure of Yuji's dad. "You'll be fine won't you?" Followed by overly dramatic shock from Yuji.
I don't think Yuji's being shocked by his dad's remark as much as he's deep in thought about the irony of the statement in his situation.
The dad isn't aware after all that their real son is dead, and that this son is in big trouble involving a bunch of lunatic existence-eaters, some crazy armor with a lot of eyes, an obsessive immortal lover, and a rare magical artifact thingie from that immortal with an endless pool of existence, so the stereotypically fatherly "You'll be fine won't you?" has a bit of an extra impact.
I don't think Yuji's being shocked by his dad's remark as much as he's deep in thought about the irony of the statement in his situation.
The dad isn't aware after all that their real son is dead, and that this son is in big trouble involving a bunch of lunatic existence-eaters, some crazy armor with a lot of eyes, an obsessive immortal lover, and a rare magical artifact thingie from that immortal with an endless pool of existence, so the stereotypically fatherly "You'll be fine won't you?" has a bit of an extra impact.
I know. That was just an examle of the kind of moments I was talking about in these episodes. Sure, maybe 1 or 2 big shocks an episode displayed or repititions work. But, Shana overdoes it, having like 15 or so an episode. I hate it. It reminds me of those sky scenes that happen ever 16 seconds in the first two episodes of EF.
1. The thought of Yoshida blinking out of existence makes me absurdly happy. Hurry up and do it already woman.
:( Me <3 Yoshida. Maybe she'll become a mystes so she can be with Yuji forever! Out of the way, Shana.
serenade_beta
2008-02-03, 19:34
:( Me <3 Yoshida. Maybe she'll become a mystes so she can be with Yuji forever! Out of the way, Shana.
If she becomes a mystes, she'll just disappear because she doesn't have the mighty Midnight Lost Child in her.
Though unlike a lot of people here, I hope she can remain alive (human) to the end and be happy.
New OP and ED
KOTOKO always is one of my favorite groups. Their techno songs and upbeat ballads send me those jitters surging through body.
I felt that the start for the opening song was slow and dull, but it picked up rather nicely at the midway of the opening sequence.
My favorite parts of the new opening video are the flock of red birds flying as the title is introduced, and when Shana and Yuujis' hands are about to reach other the crystal seen through it shatters; not forgetting Yuuji's awesome fight sequences with him wielding the Blutsaüger.
It's not surprising that this episode was comparatively weak in contrast to the end of the Pheles arc. We have to admit it four major events happened in the previous episode and went in the blink of an eye.
Still, I would have wished if the animators went focusing with Kazumi's depression over Yuuji in this episode exclusively, and not having to repeat it in the previous arcs.
We now know how wide is the gap between her and Yuuji now that she's inside the mess created by the Bal Masque.
And it doesn't help much that the hougu that Pheles gave her would make her to disappear whenever the need should arise one day to use it.
I believe that witnessing Yuuji engaging in his new training with the Blutsaüger they want to tell, that it is possible for Kazumi to get stronger by her own means.
And, on the other hand, with all the insanity that witnessed Margery doing, looks like Tanaka wants to quit from that world and return to the ordinary world to stay by Ogata's side.
This would in turn create a sense of frustration and a void for Satou, who is starting to adapt into Margery's world but doesn't want to venture it all alone and by himself.
Ashlotte
2008-02-03, 20:17
1. The thought of Yoshida blinking out of existence makes me absurdly happy. Hurry up and do it already woman.
Thats about the size of it...Take the hint yoshida and walk away from all this super powered craziness and go have Ike's babies or something... :heh:
Meh other then the lulls that always accompany yoshida's inner monologues it was an ok episode after all the insanity of episode 15. The OP helped though by getting my hopes that thing will finally get good soon...Crossing my fingers that im not getting my hopes too high. :p
LMAO @ Pheles' proposition to Yoshida.
"Nobody cares about you, so when you realize how worthless you are and that you'll never beat that loli even with your massive tits, use this cross to summon me and I'll win Sakai over.
The only catch is that you'll die, but you're a weakling anyway and nobody notices you so it's no biggie. Kthxbye"
That has to be the most ass-backwards proposition I have ever heard :heh:
Aww, they're trying to make us care about Fumina's absen*YAWN*...next.
Poor Ike...he's become the laughing stock of the series. I wonder if they'll still include his confession scene to Yoshida in the snow that was in the first OP, though I can't take him seriously anymore so that'll certainly put a damper on things.
Just like with the first Shana, I prefer the old OP/ED to the new one. Yuji looks kind of ridiculous standing there with everyone holding out Blutsauger like that :heh:
FlareKnight
2008-02-03, 21:23
If she becomes a mystes, she'll just disappear because she doesn't have the mighty Midnight Lost Child in her.
Though unlike a lot of people here, I hope she can remain alive (human) to the end and be happy.It's not like I'm out for her destruction or anything. Whatever will end those personally annoying statements regarding being too far from Yuji, wanting to be where he and Shana are, works for me.
Oddly enough she is connected to a few annoying things like the continuously brought up "I'm not going to lose" thing. They've hit both points home, thank you series. She'll either need to move on or go out according to Pheles in a blaze of obscurity.
Poor Yuji. Tries to look cool in the OP with blutsauger and instead gets called ridiculous :heh:.
The way I see it Tanaka is being a complete wimp and baby. Im not looking forward to the next ep. After this he should never appear again. He just disrupts the plot development.
superzombie23
2008-02-03, 22:32
I feel so bad for yoshida-san. I'm looking forward to her climax moment where she has to make the decision. I hope the director doesn't screw this scene up, cuz it will make me cry if they do it right; scenes that make me cry are good :p I haven't read any novels or anything so I'm just hoping for something good.
MidoriHiME
2008-02-03, 22:33
I absolutely ADORE the new animation for the opening, but the tune itself is...I don't know. I don't like it, really. I do like the ending, however - it sounds like a mix of KOTOKO's Ketsudan no Entrance and Mami Kawada's Triangle.
As for the episode itself? Well, I can't wait for Kazumi to use that item. I do felt it dragged a bit, but it looks like there's plenty of action in store, so I'm OK with that for now. It'll be interesting to see Yuuji start fighting in battle, for sure.
From a human POV, that's morally wrong.
From a Tomogara's POV... well, that's a restaurant for them.
Better yet, the death row inmates are about to be killed so why not take their PoE instead?
Honestly, to think that there would be Tomogara that would breed humans in the same manner as livestock, they are gonna need a lot of farms to surpass the demand.
Well, humans have a sense of morals that center only around thmeselves. I guess none of them could accept that they aren't at the top of the food pyramid with Tomogara and Rinne running around.
LMAO @ Pheles' proposition to Yoshida.
"Nobody cares about you, so when you realize how worthless you are and that you'll never beat that loli even with your massive tits, use this cross to summon me and I'll win Sakai over.
The only catch is that you'll die, but you're a weakling anyway and nobody notices you so it's no biggie. Kthxbye"
That has to be the most ass-backwards proposition I have ever heard :heh:
Aww, they're trying to make us care about Fumina's absen*YAWN*...next.
Poor Ike...he's become the laughing stock of the series. I wonder if they'll still include his confession scene to Yoshida in the snow that was in the first OP, though I can't take him seriously anymore so that'll certainly put a damper on things.
Just like with the first Shana, I prefer the old OP/ED to the new one. Yuji looks kind of ridiculous standing there with everyone holding out Blutsauger like that :heh:
Kazumi could just trick Satou or Ike to use that Hougu in her place. But she's not as effective to the plot as she used to be. Nonetheless, it's tempting for me to think of jumping into the episode and smash Pheles on the head with a steel chair due to her "the world revolves around me" nature.
Well, even if no one really cares about her, Konoe Fumina's memory will live on. Someone should have videotaped Konoe during the festival march and they might just see the wizard attire walking on its own?
Remember the photo Hirai Yukari took with Sakai and Ike during ep 2, and how she disappeared from it after her torch burned out. Clothes included
SoldierOfDarkness
2008-02-03, 23:07
The way I see it Tanaka is being a complete wimp and baby. Im not looking forward to the next ep. After this he should never appear again. He just disrupts the plot development.
No..
He's doing what he should be doing, or at least what Margery wants him to do. Get away while you still can. He's not part of this world.
That's not being a baby, that's being smart.
See this is what Kazumi should be doing. As Pheles noted she has no part of this world. I mean yeah woman we know there's a huge gap between you and yuji and it's the size of 10 football fields. Just give it up already woman.
Owaranai Destiny
2008-02-03, 23:22
Kazumi could just trick Satou or Ike to use that Hougu in her place. But she's not as effective to the plot as she used to be. Nonetheless, it's tempting for me to think of jumping into the episode and smash Pheles on the head with a steel chair due to her "the world revolves around me" nature.
That's rather in sync with what Wilhelmina told everyone about her: That she was just a self-absorbed Tomogara until Johan came into the picture. Now that he's out again, I would add 'Obsessed' to that 'self-absorbed'. Besides, most of the powerful Tomogara we actually saw were 'exceedingly confident' in themselves, so as to speak. Merihim was one example, as was the one who could use paper soldiers (Can't remember his name, darn it.)
Well, even if no one really cares about her, Konoe Fumina's memory will live on. Someone should have videotaped Konoe during the festival march and they might just see the wizard attire walking on its own?
Just to add on to what Protoman said, I'm assuming that the faux vessel works in a similar way to that of a Torch, that once it disappears after fulfilling it's purpose, it's existence is considered erased to the normal people.
The way I see it Tanaka is being a complete wimp and baby. Im not looking forward to the next ep. After this he should never appear again. He just disrupts the plot development.
After seeing the person you like getting embroiled in this shit and fretting over his decision to help out Margery or to get away from the world makes you a wimp? Riiight.
HashiriyaR32
2008-02-04, 01:47
Yuuji swinging Blutsauger around in the OP sort of reminds me of a section of the first OP for Bleach.
qtipbrit
2008-02-04, 04:08
That's rather in sync with what Wilhelmina told everyone about her: That she was just a self-absorbed Tomogara until Johan came into the picture. Now that he's out again, I would add 'Obsessed' to that 'self-absorbed'. Besides, most of the powerful Tomogara we actually saw were 'exceedingly confident' in themselves, so as to speak. Merihim was one example, as was the one who could use paper soldiers (Can't remember his name, darn it.)
I believe he was Organ, or something similar.
I found that scene to be quite amusing, and I actually had to rewatch it to confirm that she had really told Kazumi what I had read. Haha, wow.
Just to add on to what Protoman said, I'm assuming that the faux vessel works in a similar way to that of a Torch, that once it disappears after fulfilling it's purpose, it's existence is considered erased to the normal people.
Regarding this, I haven't quite grasped how one would remember an erased torch or Konoe-san. Yuji apparently remembered the original Yukari Hirai and Konoe-san because he was a torch himself (or because he was a mystes.), but how are Kazumi, Eita, Keisaku able to? (I'm not quite sure there was a comment on Ike, he probably didn't though.)
The only conjecture I have is that Kazumi was in possession of a hougo at the time, and Eita and Keisaku had Margery's spells and such. Gah, confusing.
After seeing the person you like getting embroiled in this shit and fretting over his decision to help out Margery or to get away from the world makes you a wimp? Riiight.
Of course, Sekai and Kotonoha handled their problems well in School Days, so Eita, who has his manly pride as a delinquent to consider, should have done the same. :rolleyes: [/sarcasm] in case you couldn't tell.
Yuuji swinging Blutsauger around in the OP sort of reminds me of a section of the first OP for Bleach.
That's nice. It also reminds me of a scene in the OP of Rurouni Kenshin, which looks very, very similar. I wonder if that has anything to do with the fact that a lot of animators probably watch anime (seeing as they decided to go into this line of work) and possibly draw inspiration from other series?
Naw.
Whitemoon648
2008-02-04, 06:20
You guys are all being naive. As if Yoshida-san would ever die. I mean come on. Its shakugan no shana we talking about. A show that is hafly Romance-drama related. If they want to ever get rid of Yoshida ( if they ever do), it would be when they want to end Shakugan no shana series all togher.
Owaranai Destiny
2008-02-04, 07:57
Regarding this, I haven't quite grasped how one would remember an erased torch or Konoe-san. Yuji apparently remembered the original Yukari Hirai and Konoe-san because he was a torch himself (or because he was a mystes.), but how are Kazumi, Eita, Keisaku able to? (I'm not quite sure there was a comment on Ike, he probably didn't though.)
The only conjecture I have is that Kazumi was in possession of a hougo at the time, and Eita and Keisaku had Margery's spells and such. Gah, confusing.
Probably has something to do with how they are able to move in a Fuzetsu, or else it could that those who were active in one and knew what happened in there were able to remember. Of course, we could always wait for someone more well-informed to answer this question.
Of course, Sekai and Kotonoha handled their problems well in School Days, so Eita, who has his manly pride as a delinquent to consider, should have done the same. :rolleyes: [/sarcasm] in case you couldn't tell.
Let's see...I guess it's pretty rational to compare two girls to a guy with different degrees of mental endurance and in different situations. :heh: Maybe I ought to go back and watch School Days all over again.
Aside from that, I don't quite understand what you meant when comparing Sekai and Kotonoha to Eita. Makes no sense.
One thing I was wondering about...
Does Yoshida know how to "activate" the hougu? There isn't any buttons on it LOL.
On a serious note, Shana seems so much like Haruhi near the end while teaching Yuji to wield the Blutslauger. At least thats my first impression but Shana is still so kawaii ^_^.
Whitemoon648
2008-02-04, 08:20
One thing I was wondering about...
Does Yoshida know how to "activate" the hougu? There isn't any buttons on it LOL.
On a serious note, Shana seems so much like Haruhi near the end while teaching Yuji to wield the Blutslauger. At least thats my first impression but Shana is still so kawaii ^_^.
I guess it goes like this,
PHHHHHEEEEELLLLLLLLLLLLLLES. Yells Yoshida,
Then BGM. TADAAAAAAA.
Shana seeeeems alot cuter than before. She has been looking alot cuter in the last 2 episodes. I agree.
^_^ Shana has cute outfits... Much more variations in Season 2 compared to 1...
The "Casual Going Out" outfit is my favourite(The one where shana wore in the "lightsabre" game episode). So cute ^_^.
And Yoshida can just go and die or something <_<. NO ONE CARES ABOUT YOSHIDA SAN. NO ONE. EVER.
*Raises Shana Banner*
Sinestra
2008-02-04, 09:00
So we start off episode 16 with the new OP and while nice and kind of catchy I still prefer the the first at the moment. Who knows it might grow on me, Also, Triangle as the ED i still prefer but its still nice to get a change every now and then.
Interesting episode as we see our characters trying to pick up the pieces from the events that transpired recently and trying to come up with a game plan. At this point they are all on defensive. Knowledge is power but so far all they have are questions. What they do know is to protect Yuji because eventually the enemy will come and next time it probably will be force.
I feel that this is the time where Yuji will step up and know that he cant depend on Margery, Shana and Willa... to protect him always. So seeing him ask for Blutsauger back from season 1 and the OP where we see him owning several people was nice. I think soon we will see a new Yuji.
I had never entertained the thought of Yoshida possibly dying. But with the explanation of what cross was i can totally see Yoshida using it to save Yuji, which would be a shame. I know she is longing to be in a place where she has more contact with Yuji but its not like you can wake up one day and say hey i want to be a Flame Haze. In the long run i feel that Yoshidas love Yuji is strong enough for her sacrifice herself if need be. But i dont think Johan would condone Pheles giving her something that would kill her. I think there is something else behind it and a reason we have discovered yet.
As i predicted Tanaka is starting to move on his own path and that path takes him away from everyone else. Tanaka has found whats important to him which is Oga and i cant blame him. So im sure we will be seeing a lot less of him in the matters of Flame Hazes. In school im sure we will but i feel his time will be winding down. It seems Tanakas time with Yuji and Shana and the rest of crew winds donw Yoshida's has increased.
Hm, the new OP is pretty decent, a lot of good scenes in there. As for the music, it's meh. It's okay, but I don't really like it. The credits song is A LOT better, I love it.
Anyway, about the episode. It was okay, although it was focusing around Yoshida quite a great deal, and I strongly dislike her. What's so special about her, anyway?! This jealously thing seems to be taking over each episode. If she plucked up the courage a little sooner, then something may have happened between her and Yuji, but because she didn't, we're stuck with little screen moments of her talking about how jealous of Shana she is.
It's all because Shana is way too goodz and will be closer to Yuji than Yoshida ever will be.
Hmph, rant ovar.
minhtam1638
2008-02-04, 13:33
I had never entertained the thought of Yoshida possibly dying. But with the explanation of what cross was i can totally see Yoshida using it to save Yuji, which would be a shame. I know she is longing to be in a place where she has more contact with Yuji but its not like you can wake up one day and say hey i want to be a Flame Haze. In the long run i feel that Yoshidas love Yuji is strong enough for her sacrifice herself if need be. But i dont think Johan would condone Pheles giving her something that would kill her. I think there is something else behind it and a reason we have discovered yet.
Personally, I thought it was Yuji and Shana who would fall together in the end, and Kazumi reflecting on the past in the epilogue. After gathering much information on the novels (this was before I found out what happened in novel 16), I came to that prediction thinking that Kazumi would just be on the outside observing. Now it seems that Kazumi has come close to the center of the plot, and it could be completely the opposite of what I had previously theorized.
Eisdrache
2008-02-04, 14:11
And Yoshida can just go and die or something <_<. NO ONE CARES ABOUT YOSHIDA SAN. NO ONE. EVER.
I care about Yoshida-San, discussion over.
Like superzombie23 said, the animators better get her climax moment properly animated or they will burn :)
As a side note, while the new OP is not really bad, the old OP was so much better.
ZODDGUTS
2008-02-04, 14:27
You guys are all being naive. As if Yoshida-san would ever die. I mean come on. Its shakugan no shana we talking about. A show that is hafly Romance-drama related. If they want to ever get rid of Yoshida ( if they ever do), it would be when they want to end Shakugan no shana series all togher.
sigh I have a bad feeling that there going to do that drag out the whole love triangle to the very end of the series. They really need to get rid of her and for Yuji and Shana to leave the city but it seems the author/creator of Shakugan no Shana is playing it safe by keeping the whole love triangle going and keeping both Yuji and Shana in the city as long as possible. Would really like to what sort of adventures they would have outside the city but it doesn't seem it's gonna happen.
alvinkhorfire
2008-02-04, 14:37
Probably has something to do with how they are able to move in a Fuzetsu, or else it could that those who were active in one and knew what happened in there were able to remember. Of course, we could always wait for someone more well-informed to answer this question.
Well, if anyone can move around in a Fuzetsu, he or she will be separated from the flow of the world. Therefore, he or she can still remember those who have disappeared.
.After seeing the person you like getting embroiled in this shit and fretting over his decision to help out Margery or to get away from the world makes you a wimp? Riiight.
YES. Because he knew Margery or Shana or Whilhelmina could fix everything no problem. It has happened BEFORE. It was not the first time. Get over yourself. Again it just disrupts flow. And personally I don't want to see minutes of him crying like a baby when there are actual problems and where people can actually die. Personally I just fast forward evrything that has to do with him and the other dude. Unfortunatly that may cover more than half and ep or close to it.
YES. Because he knew Margery or Shana or Whilhelmina could fix everything no problem.
i am so tired of hearing this, THERE IS NO GUARANTEE THAT EVERYTHING WILL BE FIXED , the fuzetsu was set up by yuji so if yuji is killed then the fuzetsu will go "puff" and everyone hurt will die. and even if he didn't die it is unlikely they will have enough POE to fix everything if the fight went on any longer. in fact they didn't have enough POE after the fight, many students with minor injures(bruises and broken bones) were not healed. so stop criticizing Tanaka.
Because he knew Margery or Shana or Whilhelmina could fix everything no problem. It has happened BEFORE.
While personally I agree with you that people should only think rationally and discard their feelings, since anything that is not rational thinking only hampers the further development of humanity[/sarcasm], you have to understand that the characters are modeled after actual humans, and as such seeing pseudo simulations of your dearest other one being killed in front of you is not an experience many people would like to see more than... zero times.
This series thjeme has always been about the interaction of both humans and the extra-terrestial beings of Guze interacting and growing relationships with each other, each one bringing their own emotional baggage into this interaction while trying to understand each other. Humans acting like humans (with everything that that statement implies) is what one would expect from this series instead of characters acting like something that one woulld expect from a shounen manga. :)
Whitemoon648
2008-02-04, 20:35
sigh I have a bad feeling that there going to do that drag out the whole love triangle to the very end of the series. They really need to get rid of her and for Yuji and Shana to leave the city but it seems the author/creator of Shakugan no Shana is playing it safe by keeping the whole love triangle going and keeping both Yuji and Shana in the city as long as possible. Would really like to what sort of adventures they would have outside the city but it doesn't seem it's gonna happen.
i dont want them to get rid of her. Make her stronger and then seperate them. Or Maybe even make her Dark Yoshida-san :heh:. That would be so fun.
You know how in some anime they make the nice and caring characters into evil characters?
Owaranai Destiny
2008-02-04, 22:05
YES. Because he knew Margery or Shana or Whilhelmina could fix everything no problem. It has happened BEFORE. It was not the first time. Get over yourself. Again it just disrupts flow. And personally I don't want to see minutes of him crying like a baby when there are actual problems and where people can actually die.
I must really have missed it. What has happened before that concerned the people he really cared for in comparison to what happened now? I assume you are talking about season 1, or else the fact that it's simply anything or anyone which/who has been severely injured. Ogata Matake is not simply just 'anyone' to him currently.
You know, it's precisely that Tanaka has seen this before and he knows the consequences that he was able to understand how fearful it is to lose someone you love, especially if you keep your connections with someone from the other world as strong as he wanted it to be in the past.
And again, I wonder what flow you're talking about? The main plot? The issues amongst Kazumi, Shana and Yuuji?
CapoExecutor
2008-02-04, 23:16
Hecate is literally the purity of essence but I guess it seems that Konoe's memories with Yuji and the experiences of humanity have some unforseen consequences. Ya think she might get bored in just reliving those memories of Konoe Fumina in a timeless cycle that Hecate would hunger for new memories?
So who would be the purity of form in the Shakugan no Shana universe?
Interesting point, considering that she mentioned that she's synchronized and absorbed the desires of others before. Yet, her core isn't tarnished but time will tell if Konoe's memories prove otherwise.
I doubt there's someone with the purity of form in all the Guze but don't give your hopes up yet.
Heh, quite a Starcraft addict. :D
Its interesting the color thing...
Imo, I think the color red for Shana relates to Alastor, for judgement, but he also had the capacity to love in the past. Though I think there is more to red for Shana...Red can be associated with courage, fire, action, or anger/temper, which are both apart of Shana's character. Red can also mean vitality, war, and survival, and that is usually what Shana has to deal with consistently.
As for Yuji, Blue is the color of water or sky, which most often is associated with communication, loyalty, truth, affection, friendship, emotions, mental strength, compassion, perception, protective, and calm, which is apart of Yuji's character. Yuji has a way of balancing out Shana's traits, and vice versa.
While Kazumi is Yellow, it is associated with awareness, expression, youth, brightness, warmth, playful, and mental activity, which fits her character pretty well, if you think about it.
As for the crucifix that Pheles gave her, I agree with Owaranai. Most likely the crucifix would mean sacrifice. Kazumi is only human, she doesn't belong in Shana and Yuji's world, but since she insists on associating with both of them and their situations and wants to be of use to them both, Pheles gave her something that she would be able to do. Kazumi cannot expect everything to go the way she planned, Shana and Yuji both learned that, and accept that, and Kazumi is no exception to that. Just because she cares, doesn't mean it will entitle her to everything she wants. At least Pheles gave her a choice for some sort of purpose and role, she can still choose what she wants, but this time she has a chance for her existence to mean something. I'm not sure about the exact words Pheles said to Kazumi, as I don't really understand Japanese, but perhaps, Kazumi's life would mean her current life (as her body doesn't have the capacity for Pheles), but not her entire existence. Though I'm not sure if this story has the cycle of death and rebirth, and reincarnation, but I don't remember it talking about that, so who knows.
Well written. The crucifix seems appropriate for the meaning of sacrifice but will it be a worthy one or will it be for nothing? I think that Pheles might be unwittingly telling Kazumi to walk away while she still can. She probably should've given Kazumi a Bible as well. Only those who are Guze-aware would notice that Yoshida had died. I wonder if her younger brother Ken would be used in the plot.
I think someone mentioned on how the number three seems to play a role in the storyplot. Three primary colors, three people in a love triangle, three different emotions, three entities tied to the Reiji Maigo, and three different forces that seek the Reiji Maigo for different means.
i find that crucifix a bit cold hearted. both pheles and yoshida wants to help yuji for various reasons. so calling upon pheles to help out yuji in an energency and hav yoshida dissappear in the process makes yoshida feel more like a lowly chess pawn to phele's queen. its still too harsh a lesson knowing that she'll never stop trying to stay around yuji and shana.
Grimkill7
2008-02-05, 01:45
I was going to give this episode an 8, but I couldn't give it any higher than a 7. Yoshida's whining has taken me over the edge. Just use that hougo Kazumi. Use it and it'll all be over quickly and painlessly. That's a good girl. **strokes Yoshida's head gently** That's a good girl.
In other seemingly related news, Yuuji is doing what appears to be something (zomgplotexplosion!). Blutsauger, blah blah blah, getting stronger, etc. etc. Imagine the previous training sessions, only Yuji has lethality now... YAY for lethality!
Over in the interesting characters camp, Wilhelmina... did pretty much nothing this episode. Your irrefutable cuteness alone can't keep you on the screen Carmel-san (Who am I kidding? Hell yes it can). Margery Daw lost one of her cohorts. I don't know how she can possibly carry on without Tanaka(?). I mean, he was practically the backbone of her power in battle. Looks like she's doomed.
Meanwhile, at the Legion of Doom's Bel Peol's HQ, things are certainly stirring up. Silver specifically. Hecanoe is just as cute as ever. I just want to pick up and squeeze her and her little hat and hope that she won't own me with her rod of doom. Scientist man is back, along with DOMIIIINOOOO! This alone got episode 16 an extra 3 points out of me. That guy is awesome.
16 wasn't action packed, but at the same time you can't call it slice-of-life either. Nor can you say that it fits between the two. This episode belongs in some kind of strange episode limbo that righteous but non-believing episodes go to when they pass on. It was a sub-par episode by season 1's standards, but a godly episode by season 2's. Keep em coming J.C. Staff.
KholdStare
2008-02-05, 02:35
Well that was quite boring but emotional at the same time, so I'm not sure how to rate this. It's actually an episode without someone trying to kill each other, so I'll take that. I thought what Pheles gave Kazumi was supposed to be cooler, but oh well. The BGM was good too, so 7/10.
Kinny Riddle
2008-02-05, 03:19
Those of you who upon hearing Yoshida might die and gloated about her needing to die quickly need to cut her some slack. How would you feel being told to your face that you have no chance in a love triangle and so you're better off dead?
For the record, I can be counted as a Yuji x Shana shipper, but I do not dislike Yoshida.
I'm not any sort of shipper, but I find Shana a better choice for Yuji. Regardless, Yoshida isn't exactly as hate-able. In fact, I like Yoshida quite a bit.
KholdStare
2008-02-05, 04:44
It's Kazumi, and I'm not sure why people hate her. Of course she had such a better role in season one and in season two they made her look like repetitive stalker, but she needs to be there to further fuel the romance portion of the plot...or something. Plus, she's cute, and I don't want her to die.
And yes for the record I support Yuji's relationship with Shana.
It's Kazumi.
Kazumi to her friends, Yuji calls her Yoshida-san and so I call her Yoshida.
Owaranai Destiny
2008-02-05, 05:32
Those of you who upon hearing Yoshida might die and gloated about her needing to die quickly need to cut her some slack. How would you feel being told to your face that you have no chance in a love triangle and so you're better off dead?
For the record, I can be counted as a Yuji x Shana shipper, but I do not dislike Yoshida.
Bravo. My sentiments exactly. It's been quite tiresome to read post after post of forumers declaring their undying hatred for a character that doesn't deserve all that.
To be honest, I've just finished the episode, and I don't get the deal with the discussion on Eita. He hardly appeared in the episode, save to stop before Satou's house, hesitating then turning back the way he came. The talk should come in the next episode, though, because it will be nice to see how he has been affected by all this in greater depth and how this affects his relationship with Satou and Margery, now that Ogata and him are more or less secure.
No action, despite the exciting OP animation. It's nice to see that Yuuji finally has the strength to back up what he wants to do. There's not one ounce of 'wimp' in him as far as I can tell in this episode. He didn't cower or hesitate, but instead requested for Blutsauger to make himself stronger. Admirable, and this episode coupled with the previous one seemed to magnify his ability to deal with and recover from unexpected and shocking revelations, a trait shown in lesser magnitude in Season 1.
As for Kazumi...I will agree that she is slightly irritating, but that's understandable as she is feeling left out and perhaps even slightly desperate for the slightest chance she can get to be able to be with Yuuji. Her reluctant acceptance of the method to do that from Pheles is an indication, and I have her feeling she may yet have a big part to play in the events that will unfold with what is to become of Yuuji.
Good episode, but not the best I've seen of the 'aftermath' after an episode big on action. They did justify how Johan managed to come out with a sound explanation, if a little lacking in detail. Still, it's not too good to nitpick all the time. :p
Whitemoon648
2008-02-05, 07:14
Those of you who upon hearing Yoshida might die and gloated about her needing to die quickly need to cut her some slack. How would you feel being told to your face that you have no chance in a love triangle and so you're better off dead?
For the record, I can be counted as a Yuji x Shana shipper, but I do not dislike Yoshida.
I think you are taking it a bit too seriosuly here :). They just mean they dont want the character to be here any more as it is anoying to them. So basically let her die. You cant really compare to reality here. still yeah it is harsh for them to say that ( iwont deny that ).
And yeah i am Yuji X shana suporter too but still dont want Yushida-san to die eaither ( like you). She should be there for the romance element of the shana series to work ( well at least the end of the whole series). She is an essential component to shana series, well because shana is halfy a romance anime.
Altima of the Gates
2008-02-05, 07:59
The real issue here is that people are only thinking of Kazumi here as a stalker of Yuji and nothing else. i think she is thinking about deeper things than that. This is a harsh world she is living in, so beyond some surface thoughts she might be thinking about some other important things.
Wanting more strength in order to survive - She has seen time and again exactly what these Tomogara can do and its not at all surprising that she would want more power, not to just be by Sakai-kun's side, but because she would rather not be like every other human who can be wiped out at any moment. Seriously, after seeing the battle in 15, I would want more than just an artifact where I can sacrifice myself just for a summon.:p
I think someone said that maybe the hougu Pheles gave her was a test for her to gain new powers, and that would be great. If not, this was pretty much the biggest slap in the face ever.:(
Somewhere back, someone was wondering why the normal humans (Yuuji, Satou, Eita and Yoshida) can remember those that "don't exist." My guess is because they've awakened to the world, so the idea of the loss of existence doesn't affect them.
Yuuji: When he met Shana and told him he's a torch. Saw a boy disappear from his mother's hand, and she walked on. Same with another boy and his friends.
Eita and Satou: When they met Margery and learned about the world.
Yoshida: When she met Khamsin, and used the monocle on a boy as he disappeared (I think he disappeared...)
Ogata: Hasn't seen anything of the above, so she doesn't remember Fumina. Thus, she hasn't awakened like the others.
So I'm thinking, when you come into contact with a Flame Haze or Tomogara, and then you learn about the existence of their world and the torches, you then "awaken," and the traditional effects it would have on you disappear. However, you now have to live with the knowledge of this world, and your ignorance of it goes away. Ignorance is bliss, or so they say.
Course, doesn't apply to Fuuzetsu. Yuuji is a mystes, Eita and Satou had a spell cast on them/ have an item off Margery, and Yoshida has a charm from Khamsin. Obviously, Ogata has nothing.
As for Yoshida's "whining," I think it's because she loves Yuuji, but that built when she didn't realize he could disappear at a moment's notice. When she found this out, Yoshida's worries multiplied, and now has to deal with the fact that her rival, Shana, takes Yuuji deeper into a world she can't be part of, unless some happenstance comes about.
I think anyone would brood over the fact that someone you care about deeply is starting to get into something you can't be a part of. She's just walking into a world that is becoming more and more complicated, and she's not the type that would cope with such a thing so easily. Like the above, she was probably happier with her ignorance.
Eita and Satou probably could. However, despite it being fixable, Eita just saw the love of his life get essentially "killed" by someone he admired the most. I think anyone would at least be disturbed by something like that, but to see it happen to the real person despite frozen time, they could flip out. Seeing her in another fuuzetsu then reopened that wound. He's backing out before it happens again.
Satou is just that way. He's a composed person. Yuuji probably just has hidden courage and will he's never been able to see before, and is trying to shed the wimpy side to bring it to the surface. Can't wait to see him wield Blutsauger.
No offense, but I have to agree with the people above: I can understand a few people hating on Yoshida, but when it gets to 5 or 10 people in a row saying they want her dead, it gets annoying. Keep in mind, I'm one who'd like to see Yoshida forget Yuuji and go with Ike, but...
THIS is what I'm starting to like about this series. Some really good drama going on all over. I was starting to think it'd be like Bleach but shorter (No, I'm not one of those "Shana is Bleach" people. Bleach just taught me I wasn't a fan of actiony series anymore.), but now it's becoming one of my favorites.
Anh_Minh
2008-02-05, 13:06
I think one of the problem with Kazumi is that people don't get why she's so attached to Yuji. I know I don't.
She's one of those many anime girls, madly in love with the male lead, doing crazy stuff to be with him, and nobody knows why. Sure, Yuji is a nice guy, full of qualities. But is he worth all getting involved in that dangerous world? She's only known him a few months!
But all in all, I like her. She's nice. And her yandere side in Shana-tan is damn entertaining.
KholdStare
2008-02-05, 14:10
Kazumi to her friends, Yuji calls her Yoshida-san and so I call her Yoshida.
Never mind.
I think one of the problem with Kazumi is that people don't get why she's so attached to Yuji. I know I don't.
She's one of those many anime girls, madly in love with the male lead, doing crazy stuff to be with him, and nobody knows why. Sure, Yuji is a nice guy, full of qualities. But is he worth all getting involved in that dangerous world? She's only known him a few months!
But all in all, I like her. She's nice. And her yandere side in Shana-tan is damn entertaining.
I think Yoshida had known Yuji for much longer than just a few months. Probably when they were back in primary or middle school.
Anh_Minh
2008-02-05, 15:44
Then you'd think she'd be less shy around him, wouldn't you? And that he wouldn't call her "Yoshida-san".
Triple_R
2008-02-05, 16:12
I absolutely ADORE the new animation for the opening, but the tune itself is...I don't know. I don't like it, really. I do like the ending, however - it sounds like a mix of KOTOKO's Ketsudan no Entrance and Mami Kawada's Triangle.
I completely agree.
I feel bad for Yoshida, and Pheles has reinforced herself as an awful person when it comes to how she treats anyone other than Johan.
While I think that it's becoming increasingly clear that Yoshida has no chance of "not losing" to Shana, Pheles' treatment of her was incredibly cruel and unnecessary.
Margery can recieve alerts from her "henchmen" with out having to kill them - why can't Pheles set up a similiar system?
I suspect that there's more to the Houga than what Pheles is letting on, as well (not that I know for certain - I haven't read the Shana novels, so this is pure speculation on my part).
All in all, I thought it was a solid episode. Slow, but that's to be expected after how action-packed two of the previous three episodes were.
Margery can recieve alerts from her "henchmen" with out having to kill them - why can't Pheles set up a similiar system?
the hougu is not used to communicate, it uses the POE of the user to summon pheles directly into the battlefield
Ashlotte
2008-02-05, 18:45
It's Kazumi, and I'm not sure why people hate her. Of course she had such a better role in season one and in season two they made her look like repetitive stalker, but she needs to be there to further fuel the romance portion of the plot...or something. Plus, she's cute, and I don't want her to die.
And yes for the record I support Yuji's relationship with Shana.
Actually she's there to do the complete opposite...Bog down the "Romance" in the series and create a tired Love triangle that got old long ago last season. If anything it feels like the relationships have managed to go backwards this season (With the exception of ogixtanaka which I'm grateful for).
Thats one reason why I'm hopeful the action steps up a notch because I've pretty much given up on the "romance" aspects of the story. :upset:
Triple_R
2008-02-05, 19:19
the hougu is not used to communicate, it uses the POE of the user to summon pheles directly into the battlefield
Oh, so it's a little bit like an instant teleportation device. I can see the usefulness of that, yeah.
I took the subtitle explanation to mean that it simply alerts Pheles to the current situation - I must have missed where it specified that it would bring her directly into the battlefield.
I don't have a good memory of the first season so maybe someone can help me with this. The reason why I don't like Yoshida is that she has done nothing except whine. Let's see in about 44 (?) episodes how has Yoshida changed? All I remember her doing was whining about Yuuji, finding out he was mystes, whining about Yuuji, then she started this "I'm not going to lose to you Shana" thing, and now she's whining about being closer to Yuuji. She hasn't changed whatsoever while almost every other character has changed or we learned more about them. With Yoshida we still don't know why she even likes Yuuji or anything else about her. I thought at the end of the first season something was going to happen to her and she'd end up with Yuuji's friend. Well that didn't pan out. It literally feels like every time she's on screen she's whining about Yuuji, saying "I'm not going to lose to you Shana," or bemoaning how she isn't close to Yuuji. So instead of her trying to become stronger/useful, get closer to Yuuji, or confess to him, she has done NOTHING but whine. She is the shallowest character main character on Shana. I either want some development or she can use the Hougu and let the show move on.
KholdStare
2008-02-05, 20:25
Actually she's there to do the complete opposite...Bog down the "Romance" in the series and create a tired Love triangle that got old long ago last season. If anything it feels like the relationships have managed to go backwards this season (With the exception of ogixtanaka which I'm grateful for).
Thats one reason why I'm hopeful the action steps up a notch because I've pretty much given up on the "romance" aspects of the story. :upset:
That's not what I mean though. You said exactly what I meant to say...to bog down the Yuji x Shana relationship and create more drama in the romance portion. She's there to drag on the romance because at the end of season one, the relationship was established, so it would be difficult to keep the romance going second season. That's why Kazumi is there.
Triple_R
2008-02-05, 21:23
I don't have a good memory of the first season so maybe someone can help me with this. The reason why I don't like Yoshida is that she has done nothing except whine. Let's see in about 44 (?) episodes how has Yoshida changed? All I remember her doing was whining about Yuuji, finding out he was mystes, whining about Yuuji, then she started this "I'm not going to lose to you Shana" thing, and now she's whining about being closer to Yuuji. She hasn't changed whatsoever while almost every other character has changed or we learned more about them. With Yoshida we still don't know why she even likes Yuuji or anything else about her. I thought at the end of the first season something was going to happen to her and she'd end up with Yuuji's friend. Well that didn't pan out. It literally feels like every time she's on screen she's whining about Yuuji, saying "I'm not going to lose to you Shana," or bemoaning how she isn't close to Yuuji. So instead of her trying to become stronger/useful, get closer to Yuuji, or confess to him, she has done NOTHING but whine. She is the shallowest character main character on Shana. I either want some development or she can use the Hougu and let the show move on.
Well, in fairness to Yoshida, she already did confess her love to Yuji. Around the mid-point of Season 1, IIRC.
Really, Yuji himself is partly to blame here for sending a lot of mixed messages to, well, everybody.
He accepts all of Yoshida's gifts happily, he'll hang out with her if she asks him to and he has free time, and he'll be nice to her... but he won't lay down in clear terms his intentions towards her. He's not saying "Sorry, Yoshida, but Shana is the one for me", or "Ok, Yoshida, I'll commit to you, and I love you too".
He's, well, kind of taking advantage of the situation. It was only a few episodes ago that he was getting three lunches a day from three characters (Shana, Yoshida, and Hecate's 'clone' of sorts), and eating some from each.
He has to know by now that Shana and Yoshida both want him as her boyfriend, but he simply won't choose between them. Not explicitly, anyway.
Bonta Kun
2008-02-05, 21:35
That's not what I mean though. You said exactly what I meant to say...to bog down the Yuji x Shana relationship and create more drama in the romance portion. She's there to drag on the romance because at the end of season one, the relationship was established, so it would be difficult to keep the romance going second season. That's why Kazumi is there.
yep cause thats the world of anime and manga......they love to draggggggg this crap along for miles on end that draws a line from here to the next galaxy and back;)
wouldn't be called a anime if it didn't have something to drag out or something ya dislike to a degree, even if just a little.
thing is I actually enjoyed Yoshida's character in the 1st season but now at this point in the 2nd she is just rather annoying
lua thien
2008-02-05, 22:32
He's, well, kind of taking advantage of the situation. It was only a few episodes ago that he was getting three lunches a day from three characters (Shana, Yoshida, and Hecate's 'clone' of sorts), and eating some from each.
Actually, it was two lunches. Yuji gave a bit of each to Konoe, though, it would be a bit humorous if Hecate or Konoe attempted to cook something edible.
Seireiden explodes from Hecate's cooking attempt or Konoe's hair catches on fire and she screams and run like a banshee.:heh:
Owaranai Destiny
2008-02-05, 22:54
Actually she's there to do the complete opposite...Bog down the "Romance" in the series and create a tired Love triangle that got old long ago last season. If anything it feels like the relationships have managed to go backwards this season (With the exception of ogixtanaka which I'm grateful for).
Thats one reason why I'm hopeful the action steps up a notch because I've pretty much given up on the "romance" aspects of the story. :upset:
Action was pretty much a key aspect to why the SnS shows had people hooked, I believe.
If anything, though, relationships have not gone backward. Compared to season 1, there's a seemingly unbreakable trust between Shana and Yuuji. She has gotten past the stage of not knowing what her feelings are for Yuuji (note all the blushing and tsundere-ness coming from her when Yuuji's involved) to knowing them and finally setting her mind to it to confirm a romantic relationship between Yuuji and herself. Besides that, the end scene of season 1 was used to set up another chance for (1) Shana to confess again so as to solidify and strengthen the relationship she's having with Yuuji. The way I see it, this 'love triangle' has changed. You don't see Yuuji spending time alone with Kazumi much anymore due to the shit that has been happening. If anything, the line holding Yuuji to Kazumi is weakening because of the recent events. Kazumi understands that, and simply wants to hold on to that thinning line in the hope of being able to stand with him and on even grounds with Shana.
I don't have a good memory of the first season so maybe someone can help me with this. The reason why I don't like Yoshida is that she has done nothing except whine. Let's see in about 44 (?) episodes how has Yoshida changed? All I remember her doing was whining about Yuuji, finding out he was mystes, whining about Yuuji, then she started this "I'm not going to lose to you Shana" thing, and now she's whining about being closer to Yuuji. She hasn't changed whatsoever while almost every other character has changed or we learned more about them. With Yoshida we still don't know why she even likes Yuuji or anything else about her. I thought at the end of the first season something was going to happen to her and she'd end up with Yuuji's friend. Well that didn't pan out. It literally feels like every time she's on screen she's whining about Yuuji, saying "I'm not going to lose to you Shana," or bemoaning how she isn't close to Yuuji. So instead of her trying to become stronger/useful, get closer to Yuuji, or confess to him, she has done NOTHING but whine. She is the shallowest character main character on Shana. I either want some development or she can use the Hougu and let the show move on.
So if a character whines because she doesn't have the power, have little means of obtaining it and can't do anything about it means she's shallow?
Are there ways of letting her becoming stronger at all? Looking at it this way, she certainly can't be a Flame Haze. A fine example of a 'half-assed' Flame Haze can be found in Yuri (Becoming a Flame Haze to save people? Pfft). I highly doubt Alastor or Marchosias or even Shana would even provide her a way to integrate into their world like that, seeing as they have already been omitting her already.
What I understand from Kazumi's reactions and actions is that she's a good example of how a normal human might think from, say, being omitted from the environment surrounding the person she likes the most without being able to do anything about it. To make it sound "good" to detractors out there, This "whining" represents the helplessness she feels.
Whining? Yes. Annoying? Maybe slightly, because I know if someone else is in the same position, they would feel the same feeling of frustration and helplessness especially if it concerns something they really want to hold on to.
Kinny Riddle
2008-02-05, 23:52
I don't have a good memory of the first season so maybe someone can help me with this. The reason why I don't like Yoshida is that she has done nothing except whine. Let's see in about 44 (?) episodes how has Yoshida changed? All I remember her doing was whining about Yuuji, finding out he was mystes, whining about Yuuji, then she started this "I'm not going to lose to you Shana" thing, and now she's whining about being closer to Yuuji. She hasn't changed whatsoever while almost every other character has changed or we learned more about them. With Yoshida we still don't know why she even likes Yuuji or anything else about her. I thought at the end of the first season something was going to happen to her and she'd end up with Yuuji's friend. Well that didn't pan out. It literally feels like every time she's on screen she's whining about Yuuji, saying "I'm not going to lose to you Shana," or bemoaning how she isn't close to Yuuji. So instead of her trying to become stronger/useful, get closer to Yuuji, or confess to him, she has done NOTHING but whine. She is the shallowest character main character on Shana. I either want some development or she can use the Hougu and let the show move on.
So what if she whines? What would you have done if you were "just another human" like her? What else do you suggest she do? Are you suggesting you would jump into action, and then get killed pathetically like Yuri? And it's not like she's whining out loud anyway.
No, I think she's shallow because the character has no depth. All we know is that she likes Yuuji and wants to help him. We don't know why she liked him in the first place, why she continues to like him, and we barely know anything about her in general. We also haven't seen her have any real character development. She's the same person she was in the beginning despite having lived through so much. You'd think she would change like EVERY other main character.
The problem isn't that she has no power either. She's NEVER tried to become helpful. We see other human characters, Tanaka & Sato, do what they can and, more importantly, TRY to gain power. She continues to stand far away and talk about how she wishes she could help. I can't even remember a time when she asked any of the characters about becoming more powerful. I'd be fine if she felt helpless, but it gets old after so many episodes of her not trying to become more powerful. I'd also be fine with her trying to become stronger and fail. It's that she never tried which I would expect someone to do in order to protect their friends and the person they like.
Lastly, I don't remember her ever confessing to Yuuji. All I remember is her and Shana continually talking about who's going to tell Yuuji first.
However, I think we should probably take this somewhere else. Is there a character discussion thread anywhere? I don't want take the thread off topic or is this how episode discussion threads go? I do like lively discussions about anime.
HayashiTakara
2008-02-06, 02:08
I mentioned this before, but I think that seeing Shana and Yuji discovering what its like to be in a real relationship and at the same time deal with the dangers of their super natural lives. For once I would like to see that, rather than a beaten to death Love Triangle.
Really Kazumi is just an unnecessary obstacle, just from the opening you can tell she's gonna be that stupid retard that gets kidnapped because she insist in being in a world she doesn't belong in causing an unnecessary battle being leverage for the bad guys...
Lastly, I don't remember her ever confessing to Yuuji. All I remember is her and Shana continually talking about who's going to tell Yuuji first.
She confessed to Yuji during the Misago Festival arc in season 1.
ReinhartX
2008-02-06, 02:16
wadever happen to the tomogara girl with the dream time power thingy that appeared on epi 1?
Owaranai Destiny
2008-02-06, 02:24
No, I think she's shallow because the character has no depth. All we know is that she likes Yuuji and wants to help him. We don't know why she liked him in the first place, why she continues to like him, and we barely know anything about her in general. We also haven't seen her have any real character development. She's the same person she was in the beginning despite having lived through so much. You'd think she would change like EVERY other main character.
1st Correction: She's an underdeveloped character, a piece of evidence why she isn't really that major a character except for being a foil in the Yuuji-Shana relationship.
2nd Correction: We have seen the reason why she likes him and unlike some shows basing itself on romance, there is little explanation as to why she continues to like him-Oh wait, so love is now based on logic?
I digress. Anyway, the reason why she started liking him was shown in Season 1. Go watch.
The problem isn't that she has no power either. She's NEVER tried to become helpful. We see other human characters, Tanaka & Sato, do what they can and, more importantly, TRY to gain power. She continues to stand far away and talk about how she wishes she could help. I can't even remember a time when she asked any of the characters about becoming more powerful. I'd be fine if she felt helpless, but it gets old after so many episodes of her not trying to become more powerful. I'd also be fine with her trying to become stronger and fail. It's that she never tried which I would expect someone to do in order to protect their friends and the person they like.
Oh? The only closer Flame Haze she came across was Khamsin, who stayed for only a few episodes with her. As compared to Tanaka and Satou, we had Margery first using them as guides to Misaki City. Note that Tanaka was immediately 'impressed' by her, and Satou (who was more or less dragged into this) followed suit soon after. I'd advise you not to compare two guys who have seen their fair share of delinquency and perhaps fighting to a girl who was just acting like any shy and demure girl would one season ago, especially when she isn't all that familiar with any of the Flame Hazes except for Shana.
You can call her weak-willed, I suppose, since we have yet to see her do anything concrete to prove her words with actions, whatever they are that won't get her killed in the blink of an eye.:rolleyes: The fact is, up till now Kazumi has assumed the role of an observer and has been literally told that she is just that. One's opinion of oneself can be formed from what other people tell you, and the role you believe you assume. I'd admit part of this is her own fault, though.
Lastly, I don't remember her ever confessing to Yuuji. All I remember is her and Shana continually talking about who's going to tell Yuuji first.
Okay...Your point? No one mentioned this. :eyespin: It would so happen Shana is more direct and forthcoming, while Kazumi is mostly a worrier as of now. Simply differences in viewpoints and personalities.
Grimkill7
2008-02-06, 02:49
wadever happen to the tomogara girl with the dream time power thingy that appeared on epi 1?
Dead. She fell into a plot hole and died.
Triple R posted she confessed, it was in response to that. Okay, now I remember that bit, it was around episode 19.
About when did the show tell us why Yoshida liked Yuuji? I don't think an explanation has to be logical at all. She could have a very illogical reason for continuing to like him, but there's usually a reason all the same.
Again I'm not saying she has to actually succeed in becoming stronger. I want her to TRY to get stronger. Doesn't she know Margery? I can see why she wouldn't want to ask Shana for help. You also bring up some good points about her not being in contact with more flame hazes or not knowing them as well. Well now she knows the other flame hazes so maybe she'll do something with the season ending. Unless there's a third season where she asks one of them.
You say she's under-developed, which to me is the same as shallow. Yuuji, Shana, Margery, Alastor, Tanaka, Wilhelmina, and Sato have all been developed. Considering the amount of screen time she has, you don't consider her a main character? How about of being developed at this point based on how much screen time she has? I honestly don't even see her as a foil to Shana and Yuuji's relationship. Yuuji doesn't even pay much attention to her. I can see her as competition to Shana from Shana's perspective, but I wouldn't say foil. I just think of someone different when I think of a foil. If she altered Shana's relationship with Yuuji or made Yuuji consider her instead of Shana, then I would consider her a foil.
Nevertheless, to me she's a boring, ignorant character who repeats the same lines again and again. I think that's where my ire for her arises. And to you she's something different. I don't think we're ever going to change each other's opinions on that. I hope that other Flame Haze shows up and Yoshida asks him for help or asks one of the other FHs.
Owaranai Destiny
2008-02-06, 03:49
About when did the show tell us why Yoshida liked Yuuji? I don't think an explanation has to be logical at all. She could have a very illogical reason for continuing to like him, but there's usually a reason all the same.
Season 1, episode 4. When Yuuji asked if she was all right. After stopping Shana's punching and shouting at her to kick instead, he stood up to the teacher. Those were the first signs. Like I said, go watch.
Again I'm not saying she has to actually succeed in becoming stronger. I want her to TRY to get stronger. Doesn't she know Margery?
Margery was one of the first to object to her being at their meeting to discuss what was to be done about Yuuji. So much for knowing her well enough to get her to help. :rolleyes:
You say she's under-developed, which to me is the same as shallow. Yuuji, Shana, Margery, Alastor, Tanaka, Wilhelmina, and Sato have all been developed. Considering the amount of screen time she has, you don't consider her a main character? How about of being developed at this point based on how much screen time she has? I honestly don't even see her as a foil to Shana and Yuuji's relationship. Yuuji doesn't even pay much attention to her. I can see her as competition to Shana from Shana's perspective, but I wouldn't say foil. I just think of someone different when I think of a foil. If she altered Shana's relationship with Yuuji or made Yuuji consider her instead of Shana, then I would consider her a foil.
I don't know which dictionary you got the definition of 'shallow' from, but this probably is the easiest definition for you:
From Wikipedia:
Shallow means not very deep.
Used metaphorically, it is a derogative term used to describe people who are perceived to be superficial or without "depth".
Depth, when describing an individual, usually indicates profundity, intellectual curiosity, and a lack of preoccupation with material possessions or personal appearances. By contrast, somebody who appears superficial, materialistic, or petty is likely to be denounced as shallow. A person lacking an interest in knowledge or intellectual pursuits may also be regarded as shallow.
Please tell me you are talking about a different kind of 'shallow'. ;)
Look at it this way: I said Not that major, so perhaps you misunderstood. Up till now, the main characters are still Shana and Yuuji IMO. All the others you mentioned are major: More or less essential for the focal points of the show.
Kinny Riddle
2008-02-06, 03:54
You say she's under-developed, which to me is the same as shallow. Yuuji, Shana, Margery, Alastor, Tanaka, Wilhelmina, and Sato have all been developed.
And this is where your standards fall short. Underdeveloped does not equal shallow, I cannot comprehend how you managed to link these two together. Owaranai above has elaborated well about this as well.
Considering the amount of screen time she has, you don't consider her a main character? How about of being developed at this point based on how much screen time she has? I honestly don't even see her as a foil to Shana and Yuuji's relationship. Yuuji doesn't even pay much attention to her. I can see her as competition to Shana from Shana's perspective, but I wouldn't say foil. I just think of someone different when I think of a foil. If she altered Shana's relationship with Yuuji or made Yuuji consider her instead of Shana, then I would consider her a foil.
Nevertheless, to me she's a boring, ignorant character who repeats the same lines again and again. I think that's where my ire for her arises. And to you she's something different. I don't think we're ever going to change each other's opinions on that. I hope that other Flame Haze shows up and Yoshida asks him for help or asks one of the other FHs.
If not even author Takahashi can get you to sympathize with her, which I'm pretty sure is his intention, then feel free to continue feeling ire for her, for she's not going to go away for your pleasure anytime soon. As you yourself said, we're not going to convince you, and neither are you going to convince us why Yoshida deserve all this slack.
I equated it because:
shallow: lacking in depth and when used as a derogative term equates to superficial (among other things). I think we agree on that.
Superficial: presenting only an appearance without substance or significance (Merriam-Webster)
Underdeveloped: not adequately developed
For developed I couldn't really find anything specially about characters in fiction (kept getting it in relation to countries). But when I think of a developed character I think of someone with substance.
Although now that I look at it a little closer I probably committed the Fallacy of Equivocation by mistake. I usually don't vet stuff I post on anime forums beyond trying to find spelling errors.
Thanks for pointing out the Yoshida starting to like Yuuji thing. I forgot about that since I saw that episode a couple years ago. Still I don't think I'll continue this since it has turned less into a debate about a fictional character and more about attacking me.
Really Kazumi is just an unnecessary obstacle, just from the opening you can tell she's gonna be that stupid retard that gets kidnapped because she insist in being in a world she doesn't belong in causing an unnecessary battle being leverage for the bad guys...
I don't think she's going to be kidnapped, much in the same way we never saw Shana fight Sydonay or Sydonay ever use his staff to fight, even though those show up in OPs.
I guess a major event / plot turn presents an opportunity for a character to make a choice, a chance to make a turning point and a decision, and this pretty much resonates around the viewers too, with the much stronger and decisive opinions on Yoshida Kazumi. There are those who see this as a chance for her to exit the scene, and others who see that she will become stronger. Regardless of the outcome, isn't it nice that the overall plot has finally progressed out of the "day-by-day" school life, and finally have some anticipation as to what will come next? I think we should all take this in a healthy fashion and not take the discussion too personally. We all develop feelings towards the characters, but let's not overstep and force opinions onto others.
I agree that Kazumi's (I guess it would be impolite to address strangers by their first name, but I think we can safely refer to the characters as our "friends") character has not been fully developed in the story, and she seems so close and yet so far. We roughly know her personality, that she is polite and shy, and passionate and persistent when it comes to emotional matters. She also seems like the kind that is organised, loves the simple little things of life, and one who wants to lead a simple, peaceful, and maybe idealised romantic life. However, we hardly see her everyday life. We do not know her hobbies and life outside of school (Yuji and Yukari visit the CD store after school, Hayato plays the arcade, has cram school), and there are no opportunities for her to show the different sides of her life (she's good at cooking, but we don't see that except just the bentos that she prepares). We hardly see her normal life outside school, except for weirdly-timed sequences like the midnight dog walk.
Yet, she has been given a relatively big role in the story, being an important part as a catalyst and motivation for the development of Yuji's and Shana's relationship, and at the same time, having her own feelings deeply examined in several episodes. There would be no denying that any discussion on emotions of love would be incomplete without jealousy, and one would not exist without the other, for jealousy turns love into something that needs to be protected and makes it precious. Besides, the development of feelings through human interaction, the understanding of love through jealousy, can also be contrasted with the Tomogara's definition of love, which is twisted and unfounded, and has no basis of understanding. (This is just my opinion, I guess this could lead to a discussion from The Matrix, on whether non-humans can truly understand love and human emotions from their literal meaning.)
It would be hard to make a decision if all we know is Kazumi's feelings for Yuji, and yet we know so little of her in person. Perhaps... that is how Yuji feels too?
It would be unfair to say the Kazumi does not play an important role in the plot. However, it would seem that her role is unbalanced, and it is this awkardness is causing much of the polar arguments.
minhtam1638
2008-02-06, 14:25
You know what I think? I think Kazumi needs her own episode. It should settle the arguments you guys have been ranting on and on about for hours...
ZODDGUTS
2008-02-06, 14:50
I mentioned this before, but I think that seeing Shana and Yuji discovering what its like to be in a real relationship and at the same time deal with the dangers of their super natural lives. For once I would like to see that, rather than a beaten to death Love Triangle.
That's what I would like to that sort of relationship between Yuji and Shana to get into but instead were getting a old tired out love triangle going between Shan, Yuji and Yoshida for two seasons now. This is why I want Yoshida to finally go away (not to die per say) as long she's there this whole love triangle will still be going, I have a bad feeling if there's a 3rd season there still be doing the whole love triangle plot. It doesn't exactly help her character that pretty much she's shown it's mostly her whining about wishing to get closer to Yuji another thing I feel that's really gotten old and tired out she's been doing this since season one.
Deathscyther
2008-02-06, 14:51
Well, no matter what anyone says, I liked the episode quite a bit^^
I gave it a 8 out of 10
It was a good cooldown episode after such a packed action episode last week. We learn more about Yuji's situation and get to see how everyone is reacting to the latest developments. I like how Yuji is finally going to begin his training with Blutsauger. It's a bit late, but who cares. Now we can see Yuji kick some ass:p
And I don't mind the Kazumi scenes at all. I don't like her character very much, but that's because she hasn't done much in the series. She's there for the romantic part of the story, but when it comes to action, she's useless. But I do realize and understand why she's in the situation she is now. She likes Yuji and she knows that she's close to him, but at the same time she's far away, because they live in 'different worlds'
Just like Shana, Kazumi wants to be with Yuji no matter what and she's willing to do everything to walk into that other world. But she's no flame haze or guze no tomogara. She's just a human who can't do anything but watch. She hates this and gets emotional about it, especially because she can see that Shana and Yuji are getting closer in that world. She reacts like I would react if I were to be in the same situation. It's only human.
I agree that we need to learn a bit more about her character though. She's a bit underdevelopped. I agree with that. She has to put some spicy situations in the love triangle. We need some action in that department as well. But don't get me wrong, I'm a Yuji x Shana fan all the way:P
You know what I think? I think Kazumi needs her own episode. It should settle the arguments you guys have been ranting on and on about for hours...
Guess she's getting more attention than she needs, eh? :heh: Even Hayato, with his own episode, doesn't get this much discussion...
& the wiki entry still isn't edited, regarding Hayato being a torch.
Seems like he really doesn't matter much anymore...
teachopvutru
2008-02-06, 17:30
You know what I think? I think Kazumi needs her own episode. It should settle the arguments you guys have been ranting on and on about for hours...
And this thread should become the Yoshida Kazumi Character Discussion Thread instead. :heh: (and last episode thread becomes Sakai Yuji Character Discussion Thread)
I'm ready for a Shana one. :p
Owaranai Destiny
2008-02-06, 19:41
Guess she's getting more attention than she needs, eh? :heh: Even Hayato, with his own episode, doesn't get this much discussion... & the wiki entry still isn't edited, regarding Hayato being a torch. Seems like he really doesn't matter much anymore...
You might want to put that in a spoiler tag, actually, since I'm pretty sure there are people out there who don't know about Ike.
@ jin07: I must have given you that impression. Sorry, I don't attack people. I attack their arguments. :p
For Kazumi to give up, I'm getting the feeling that only Yuuji can actually manage to do that. Once he rejects her completely, that should end everything in the love triangle.
Sterling01
2008-02-06, 19:50
You might want to put that in a spoiler tag, actually, since I'm pretty sure there are people out there who don't know about Ike.
@ jin07: I must have given you that impression. Sorry, I don't attack people. I attack their arguments. :p
For Kazumi to give up, I'm getting the feeling that only Yuuji can actually manage to do that. Once he rejects her completely, that should end everything in the love triangle.
It's not a spoiler as it's not true
It's not a spoiler as it's not true
Yup, I thought it wasn't true... think it's mentioned from the novels discussion thread. But guess I could've been more careful though, since it is something undiscussed before here. :upset:
HayashiTakara
2008-02-07, 01:13
Kazumi should become a torch be happy for a week that she finally got to be apart of the super natural world, then disappear forever. thats a happy ending if I ever saw one.
Kazumi should become a torch be happy for a week that she finally got to be apart of the super natural world, then disappear forever. thats a happy ending if I ever saw one.
Yeah? Well how about... NO!!
I don't really agree that that's a happy ending.
Kazumi is the kind of character that you don't want around because she gets in the way of screen time for the main characters. She's certainly important to the story, but she's not popular because it feels like she doesn't fit in - with the supernatural world, with Yuji and Shana's relationship, none of it really. It's easily understandable why she's in the story and it's easy to see why she'd be unpopular, but she has a roll to play and that's all there is to it. At least she's more pivotal than the crap we had to put up with for half the second season involving Konoe.
I don't know what happens in the novels but it seems like there are only two roads to go in the Shana universe - you either become supernatural, or you fade out of the story. What I believe is that her new trinket is the most pivotal element of the story so far, because it's setting up a tragic element.
Personally I don't know what I would do in her position. Such a terrible choice to give someone. Sometimes I ponder if it's just a test by Pheles.
Sinestra
2008-02-07, 12:59
Wow i knew people thought Yoshida was annoying but damn a lot of people are actually wishing for her death. I dont think i would want to see her die plus god knows what it would do to Yuuji i think he would lose it. So far none of his close friends have died he has not prepared himself for that possibility yet.
Aquifina
2008-02-07, 23:46
I finally got around to seeing the subs, and I will only make this comment.
Hooray for Yuji snapping out of his recent funk, and asking for blutsauger! I don't necessarily blame him for his recent passivity (silver coming out of his chest must have been a shock), but it's nice to see the quietly assertive Sakai Yuji make a comeback, as opposed to the moping panicky guy we've seen the last couple of eps.
holyman282
2008-02-08, 00:00
Wow just watched this ep! What a turn of events! When i first saw the preview in ep 15 i thought Yoshida was finally going to be useful with a hougo of her own, but it turns out that the Hougo is to summon Pheles and it would kill her!
I guess that's one way to resolve the Yoshida/Shana/Yuji love triangle... Instead of hooking her up with Ike, you could just kill her off i guess lol..
I'm not sure why everyone hates Yoshida, but wanting her to die is a bit harsh don't you think? I really felt sorry for her this ep especially when you thought that once she disappears Shana and Yuji would be together.... That is sad....
Also really liked the new OP Yuji looks so cool with the Blautsauger!!!
Irenicus
2008-02-08, 05:14
I'm not sure why everyone hates Yoshida, but wanting her to die is a bit harsh don't you think?
It's the scriptwriters' fault. I liked her in the first season (she had a point to be there: being Yuji's bridge to the normal world pretty much; and the confession scene was touching -- moreover, her role in the slice-of-life episodes wasn't bad either). Starting the second season, I didn't mind her presence at all. It's just same-old same-old after all; nothing could go wrong, right?
...well, until the fillers.
There, first, with Shana (sorry Shana fans, I won't absolve the Flame Haze of this guilt either), she mopes around for God knows how long being bothered about a certain Hecate-lookalike getting dangerously close to a suddenly-promoted-to-harem-lead Sakai Yuji. Once? Okay, plot development is plot development. Let's see where this is going. Twice? Again? Thrice? Whatever. The [lalala-ing] goddam nth time? ENOUGH! ...or so I thought. What is the staff thinking, bashing the audience over and over with that?
Now, at least Shana was the main character. And admit it if Yuji's not going to be single then he's going to be with the titular character; the universe and my world view will fall apart otherwise. Her trials and tribulations and little angsty episodes are much more acceptable based on this assumption. What's an anime high school romance without idiotic angst? I came to accept this fact long ago...
Of course I was annoyed by then, but hating Yoshida? Nah. In fact I didn't like how so many of the show's fans were complaining so much back then either. I thought: "Gee, what a hard-to-please bunch. Can't they just keep quiet and watch?" Well, I was wrong. When the pair of jealous ladies reconciled and said "I won't lose" and did all the girl-bonding and stuff, I thought, "Sweet! Now we can get the real thing." Unfortunately, we didn't get the real thing, we got more of the same; moreover, instead of angst we got something worse: cheesy unconvincing forced friendship! Lame, lame, lame. I started to dislike Yoshida. In fact I started to lose faith in Shana, wasn't she supposed to be an action girl or something? And every time the "I won't lose" coupled with forced smiles thing came up I rolled my eyes in frustration. What incompetence among the scriptwriters; they can't even come up with something different to fill up time! At least put in that much effort!
The more this came up, the more the dislike was solidified. Yet even then I wasn't about to be a vocal detractor and started asking for Yoshida Kazumi's fictional death. No, it was episode 13 that sealed the deal. I believe I expressed my initial disappointment (now reversed by the rest of the arc) back then, even against the vast majority of the fans here on Suki who seemed to finally see the dawn after a long, dark night. While Pheles' apparent lack of weight back then was a factor, what really made me annoyed was how Yoshida Kazumi simply did not belong there. Everything was being smashed to pieces, Yuji caught up, Wilhelmina in shock, Ms. Carebear on a rampage, and Shana fighting for her life. And Kazumi? "I wish I was up there with Sakai-kun."
That's it. She's dead. I wouldn't have minded her out of place remark nearly as much were it not for the scriptwriters forcing her character to say the same bloody annoying things from the early episodes throughout the season. But since that's what happened, I now hate her. And I really can't stand the idiot big-busted blonde anymore.
If she's going to go and have a happy ending with Ike or whatever, I don't mind. If she's going to say A Farewell to Fuzetsu and leave the scene content, I don't mind either. But unless she gets out or stop spouting those lines again and again somehow I'll continue to demand her skull to make a drinking cup for the Tsar of the Bulgarians.
'is my 2 Thoreni.
Skullator
2008-02-12, 12:46
Ok so I only just started watching this ep now since I'm lazy.
But I will say I just watched the best OP artistically in years.
OkamiNoKaze
2009-09-29, 19:28
Kinda Harsh there Pheles, wow. the thing is, even if Kazumi were to use that, Yuji would still remember her , and depending on the circumstances of using it, would feel horrible.
Triple_R
2009-09-29, 19:36
Kinda Harsh there Pheles, wow. the thing is, even if Kazumi were to use that, Yuji would still remember her , and depending on the circumstances of using it, would feel horrible.
Pheles is an interesting character. She's so caught up with Johan, that the wider world (and everybody in it) doesn't matter to her any more. She's like what happens when a crazed stalker actually has the person he or she stalks reciprocate almost fully (Johan still cares about the wider world, unlike Pheles).
Archon_Wing
2009-09-30, 03:06
Pheles is a selfish bitch who will use anyone and anything to get her lover back. She was manipulating people's feelings by using a decoy so she could pretend to be weak a few episodes ago. The way she appeared to be so sincere yet have such vile plans makes her so dangerous. She is intelligent and ruthless, and cannot be trusted for a second. The moment she has no use for you, it can only end bad.
She's probaly one of the most interesting antagonists because she sorta represents love gone wrong. It's kinda intresting to think of what would happen had one of our heroes taken the wrong path-- would they end up like her? Or they suffered a great loss that caused it. I mean there's no doubt she wouldn't be doing all of this had it never happened, but that's not how we judge anything by.
Anyhow, it's been a while since I watched this particular episode, but I liked it quite a bit; it's a great cooldown episode given the action before this. The new opening credits had an ok song, though the first half is kinda weird. The scenes depicted are pretty damned awesome with the cool explosions, even if Yuji looks like he's overcompensating. :D
Sociometry is marginally better than Triangle, but I really don't care for either. Neither is a bad song, but the ED songs for Shana are pretty inferior to the opening ones-- doesn't mean they are bad, it's just the OPs are that great. ;) The only ED I really liked was the 2nd one from season 1.
vBulletin® v3.8.4, Copyright ©2000-2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.