View Full Version : Kage Bushin dangerous?
Starfall
2003-11-09, 19:39
Why is the kage bushin considered a dangerous technique? It was (as you know) in the scroll of sealing which the first hokage sealed because it was dangerous. They say that if used in the wrong way it will be dangerous and they didn't want it to spread to other villages. But why is this? It isn't THAT great of a technique, and it desn't really harm the user (it uses up a lot of chakra but so what)!
Anybody know the answer?
Stickels
2003-11-09, 19:53
because um... they were out of ideas of how else to have naruto be using it and noone else?
Alfzilla
2003-11-09, 20:07
We have talked about this before and i still think that the jutsu itself is not forbidden it was just in a scroll full with a bunch of other jutsus that are forbidden and are really dangerous.
EliteJounin
2003-11-09, 20:15
it depends on how the shinobi uses the technique. Even Henge No Jutsu could be a lethal technique if it were used with a combination of others. So can Kage Bunshin No Jutsu.
lol seriously Stickels has a good point ^^
But as an Otaku our duty is to find a 'logical' reason to anything within the series :p
So don't forget one thing, Naruto masterize only one part of the Kage Bunshin, he's just able to replicate himself.
But the Kage Bunshin allow you to replicate absolutely anything.
Shuriken or... money!
An evil shinobi could destroy a country's economy with this technique :D
kage bunshin cant let you replicate anything, can it?
however you guys are idiots. THink about it, if you can create yourself a fully functioning clone (not a illusion), and use henge bushin to make it look like someone else, you can commit all the crimes you want, and you wont get caught but the clones will.
Lord Raiden
2003-11-09, 21:17
No, kage bushin only replicates the user. Now combine that with henge and you've got a lethal combination.
From the manga (sorry about before)
There is a rather ambiguous translation that was made during the fight between Sarutobi and Orochimaru. The chapter was 122,during the fight, at the point where Sarutobi pulled off a Kage Bushin... Orochimaru muttered, "To think, you'd shorten your lifespan out of impatience"
I doubt that means anything, but the context it's used in is odd
Oh and as far as Kage Bushin allowing you to replicate anything, it did happen once in the manga. During the Sarutobi/Orochimaru fight at the beginning Sarutobi threw one kunai and used the replication jutsu to make it turn to over a hundred heading at Orochimaru.
kage bunshin cant let you replicate anything, can it?
however you guys are idiots. THink about it, if you can create yourself a fully functioning clone (not a illusion), and use henge bushin to make it look like someone else, you can commit all the crimes you want, and you wont get caught but the clones will.:Dlol...Dirty mind...or you can create a hotty and make you gf/bf jealous...i know, lame...:D..good one p3psi..
Stickels
2003-11-09, 21:40
who the hell is Sarutobi?
King-Bob
2003-11-09, 21:41
well afew points... a good ninja can tell when it's a clone or a fake.. and the scroll was contains forbidden jetsu, kage just happened to bet he first one on the list that naruto learned. assuming the scrool works like a book..easy jetsu first.... and gets harder...
Orochimaru muttered, "To think, you'd shorten your lifespan out of impatience"
I doubt that means anything, but the context it's used in is odd
He says that because when you use the Kage Bunshin I believe it was stated somewhere that the clones all have less 'strength' than the original depending on the amount of clones made.. so 3 Hokages is actually weaker than 1. Or something like that.
Starfall
2003-11-09, 21:47
Sarutobi is the third hokage.
And guys, use spoiler tags, there ARE people who don't read the manga.
Especially YOU Merco!:frustrated::frustrated:
fenikkusu
2003-11-10, 01:10
The kage bunshin clones are all equal to the original , its other types of clones such as Zabuza's water clone which was only 1/10 of his strentgh. I think that Naruto's clone technique was a forbidden technique because, well.. consider having 100 extremely powerful ninja's, each 1 does kage bunshin x10 that will be 1000 soilders marching into town , and that is each ninja only making 10. But still there are people that still know it , like Kakashi and konohamaru's instructer ( i forgot his name). Well, that is my explenation on why it may be considered forbidden , but it seems that even if a technique is forbidden, it doesnt' stop people from learning them. Such as Gui sensei teaching rock lee his lotus move.
Moon The Cat
2003-11-10, 01:13
The kage bunshin clones are all equal to the original , its other types of clones such as Zabuza's water clone which was only 1/10 of his strentgh. I think that Naruto's clone technique was a forbidden technique because, well.. consider having 100 extremely powerful ninja's, each 1 does kage bunshin x10 that will be 1000 soilders marching into town , and that is each ninja only making 10. But still there are people that still know it , like Kakashi and konohamaru's instructer ( i forgot his name). Well, that is my explenation on why it may be considered forbidden , but it seems that even if a technique is forbidden, it doesnt' stop people from learning them. Such as Gui sensei teaching rock lee his lotus move.
The clones are not as strong as the original. (Fact from manga).
Why is it forbidden?
I think it just looks cool if Naruto knows a forbidden technique.
I like the word forbidden. It sounds so....forbidden.
That scroll is probroly forbidden to other countries. It most likly contains all the jujtsu's of the village.
OR
Its forbidden ONLY because it contains the seal technique. Why they put it there? DOn't ask me. But what ever can bring the 9 tails out must be forbidden
Kamui4356
2003-11-10, 01:54
Kage bushin divides the user's total chakara among the clones. If someone with a lot of Chakara like Naruto were to make 10 clones, they'd be pretty close to the original in strength. If someone without much chakara like sakura were to make 10 clones they'd be a lot weaker than the original since there isn't enough chakara to go around. Also if Naruto made a lot of clones without using kyubi chakara, they'd be a lot weaker than the original.
a good ninja can tell when it's a clone or a fake Not true as you'll see in a few episodes. The only way to tell is to hit each one and see if it disappears or not. (At least that I remember, but I read all the manga in 2 nights so I was quite sleep deprived at the time and may have missed something.:heh: ) Kage bushin creates physical clones, not like bushin where you can tell since the clones aren't real.
I tought i already explained why it was forbidden.
Ok, ask yourself this question:
What if I was able to create a real person, and i can make this person look like anyone i wanted, and do anything i wanted. What would i do?
Anyways, basically what the above person said is correct.
I think it is in that scroll because, it is a jutsu you don't want everyone to know, because it is a good technique. Simple, it is good. You've seen it.
That's not the kind of thing you want getting out to everyone.
Kage bushin divides the user's total chakara among the clones. If someone with a lot of Chakara like Naruto were to make 10 clones, they'd be pretty close to the original in strength. If someone without much chakara like sakura were to make 10 clones they'd be a lot weaker than the original since there isn't enough chakara to go around. .
It's a inefficent jutsu. It removes at least 50% of the remaining chakra, making it a last-ditch effort. At the level Naruto can use it at, each clone can only take one hit before dissipating. 5 clones = 20% chakra remaining for yourself, and each clone may be gone in a matter of moments. If you have a limited amount of chakra, not such a good trade-off. Jiraiya told Naruto that there were jutsus that he could use because of his greater power level, this makes a pretty good example.
It's not forbidden in the sense that it's dangerous and threatening, it's just not as useful as other jutsu's.
During Sandaime vs Orochimaru, I think his clones still stood after a few hits
do i have to put this in bold or what? the reason the 4th forbid it was because you create real bodies and not illusions, make the clones look like someone else and rob a bank, or murder someone and frame em, and so on. Use your imagination
Naruto is a 12 year old boy, and knows kage bushin and sexy no jutsu, im surprised that he ever leaves his house.
EliteJounin
2003-11-10, 04:32
do i have to put this in bold or what? the reason the 4th forbid it was because you create real bodies and not illusions, make the clones look like someone else and rob a bank, or murder someone and frame em, and so on. Use your imagination
Naruto is a 12 year old boy, and knows kage bushin and sexy no jutsu, im surprised that he ever leaves his house.
First of all, you dont need to put it in bold. People are just ignoring you so stop repeating it.
And second of all, the purpose of Kage Bunshin is not to make replications of oneself and transform into another person so they can perform a heinous act.
Imagine if someone had enough chakra to do kage bunshin and then have quite a few if not all of the clones power of chidori or some other powerful move. That would be a devastating combo. Kage may not be the greatest moves by itself but used in a combo with another jutsu it can become powerful. that my friends is why it's forbidden
Edit: I dunno if you can do that or not but if you can...
MajinBuu
2003-11-10, 05:51
I'm sticking to my ideea,what if Shikamaru does Kage Bunshin and after that he caught someone with his shadow?Then the clones would be able to finish the job and beat that someone ;)
do i have to put this in bold or what? the reason the 4th forbid it was because you create real bodies and not illusions, make the clones look like someone else and rob a bank, or murder someone and frame em, and so on. Use your imagination
Naruto is a 12 year old boy, and knows kage bushin and sexy no jutsu, im surprised that he ever leaves his house.
he leaves his house coz the clones cant go too far away from him or they'll dissipate.
do i have to put this in bold or what? the reason the 4th forbid it was because you create real bodies and not illusions, make the clones look like someone else and rob a bank, or murder someone and frame em, and so on. Use your imagination
Naruto is a 12 year old boy, and knows kage bushin and sexy no jutsu, im surprised that he ever leaves his house.
p3psi is right...
and iz a good point...
no one is actually attention but ud realize its already the answer... some are still saying "o so its stupid to have kage bunshin as a forbidden technique..." p3psi just told you... read it and remember...
Kage Bunshin is a jutsu that uses a great amount of Chakra, that's why they keep it forbidden for Genins/Chuunins, I think. A ninja under Jounin level wouldn't be able to control Kage Bunshin very well, since they have fewer Chakra. Of course, Naruto is an exception, he has much more Chakra than a normal 12-year old boy.
AssertnFailure
2003-11-10, 12:21
ok first of all.....chapter 117 page 17 has sarutobi saying "shuriken kage bunshin no jutsu"....which leads me to believe that yes, kage bunshin can be used on other things besides yourself
second of all the scroll cant just be forbidden to other countries, cause mizuki was the one who was trying to get a hold of it.....which means that its also forbidden to konoha chuunins and genins alike. its also obvious that this is a powerful technique, especially considering that sarutobi actually uses it against orochimaru, along with other insanely powerful jutus.
third of all....i dont think water clones are weaker than kage clones, simply because of the scene where kakashi analyzed his situation against zabuza, where if he tried to get past him, then zabuza would kill tazuna....and if kakashi made kage bunshins, then zabuza would cancel them out with his water clones.
there, i think that covered everything :p
Sasuke could kill a dozen of Zabuza water clone in a split second and he was a weak little brat in this time ;)
The water clone is a good jutsu to distract or mislead your opponent but that's all.
Dragon Flame
2003-11-10, 12:59
was only 4 clones he killed - and its a possibility that Zabuza purposely only made them 1/10th his strenght, to preserve his own chakra
Naruto is a 12 year old boy, and knows kage bushin and sexy no jutsu, im surprised that he ever leaves his house.
Either no one got this joke, or they were mature enough not to comment on it. ;)
As for the whole arguement, I agree with the previous posters. I think its not the nature of Kage Bushin, but the fact thats its included in the scroll WITH forbidden jutsu.
When you have a book with the recipe to cookies and biological-weapon agents you don't put a notice on the book "Don't read past page 8." and leave it out in public. :p
I belive the scroll of forbiden jutsu is just like old laws. You may have a law in because it was seen as evil in the past, but now even though its still in the book its not a crime to do it, or its ignored....Same with such jutsu like kage bushin, 1st hokage had some ridiculus reason do to it.
SnowBoarder
2003-11-10, 19:16
I think that besides what they teach in the academy all jutsu's are forbidden. Think about it, if all of these jutsu's are forbidden then how come lots of people know them. I think that when they say forbidden, they mean that it is only forbidden for anyone to learn it. A strong person with very good judgement, and a high rank can only teach it to someone they think is worthy. If these jutsu's are truely forbidden then how come when seen by beople like the hokage nothing is done about it.
for all who dont know kage bunshin was in the scroll because every jutsu in the leaf is in that scroll forbidden or not forbidden
According to Shonen Jump's December 2003 issue...
--
An expanded version of the ordinary "Doppelganger" ninjutsu (also known as the Kage Bunshin or "shadow duplicate" technique), the Mass Doppelganger spawns solid doppelgangers bodies - rather than mere illusions. Although the number of doppelgangers produced is based up on the amount of chakra energy used, the sheer amount of chakra burned by the technique makes it potentially lethal if used by anyone other than the Hokage (or a select few ninja). Because it was so dangerous, the first Hokage sealed the secret of this technique into a scroll. Naruto's immeasurable stamina allows him to successfully use the spell. There are many versions of this technique that use different elements, such as water, to create the duplicates.
--
Starfall
2003-11-11, 06:45
Ok, I've recieved like 500 explenatins already. Actually, I think everyone is just guessing and nobody really knows the truth. Isn't that right? :D
Not that it's a very big matter anyway.......
i actually DONT get Pepsi's joke... can someone tell me pls?
Naruto is a 12 year old boy, and knows kage bushin and sexy no jutsu, im surprised that he ever leaves his house
???
i actually DONT get Pepsi's joke... can someone tell me pls?
Naruto is a 12 year old boy, and knows kage bushin and sexy no jutsu, im surprised that he ever leaves his house
???
If you don't understand you're probably too young for that :p
hobobaggins
2003-11-11, 13:19
It's a inefficent jutsu. It removes at least 50% of the remaining chakra, making it a last-ditch effort. At the level Naruto can use it at, each clone can only take one hit before dissipating. 5 clones = 20% chakra remaining for yourself, and each clone may be gone in a matter of moments. If you have a limited amount of chakra, not such a good trade-off. Jiraiya told Naruto that there were jutsus that he could use because of his greater power level, this makes a pretty good example.
It's not forbidden in the sense that it's dangerous and threatening, it's just not as useful as other jutsu's.
During Sandaime vs Orochimaru, I think his clones still stood after a few hits
ehh.. yes this quote will be explained later.
so. kage bunshin is a JOUNIN LEVEL technique (as said in the 3rd test by one of the chunins) the reason it is forbidden is because if they taught kage bunshin to everyone, it would not be special... and as pepsi said, creating more bodies of yourself is dangerous... traitorous ninja could learn those techniques and take them to another village.
and about the clones: okay raikage, first thing: YOU ARE WRONG secont thing: where the fuck did you pull this information from???
if by making 5 clones, he only has 20% of his chakra left, how do you explain the sasuke/naruto fight on the roof? naruto made about 50 clones. so he has < 1% chakra left right???
NO he has much more chakra than that. after the clones are destroyed, naruto produces a rasengan! and as you know a rasengan isnt exactly the most chakra efficient jutsu.
how i think the kage bunshin works is that each kage bunshin takes a set amount of chakra (lets say 1% for naruto) so naruto makes 10 bunshins (he is down to 90%)
then the chakra gets divided among the clones (so each body has an equal part of the chakra 90/11% is what each clone gets.)
dont believe me? look at where naruto is fighting neji in the manga... neji says "that is true, even with the byakugan i cannot distinguish which body is the real one"
somewhere before, someone said that "high level ninjas know which body is the real kage bunshin"
if that is so then, why does spiderman throw the web knives at naruto's clones, when he SHOULD be able to tell which is the real body...
http://www.iownjoo.com/freeimghost/GravitonSurge/kage.gif
Divination
2004-08-21, 07:12
Kage bunshin is SUPPOSED to be a "forbidden" technique... right? Then Y the hell does so many people know that technique!?!? (apart from naruto) Kakashi, Shizune, Konohamaru's teacher, 3rd Hokage and probably some others
PS y doesnt sasuke copy kage bunshin off naruto?
NL|MegaMika
2004-08-21, 07:22
y doesnt sasuke copy kage bunshin off naruto?
Because it ruins the series.
7thMethuselah
2004-08-21, 07:22
Kage bunshin is SUPPOSED to be a "forbidden" technique... right? Then Y the hell does so many people know that technique!?!? (apart from naruto) Kakashi, Shizune, Konohamaru's teacher, 3rd Hokage and probably some others
PS y doesnt sasuke copy kage bunshin off naruto?
Guessing here but
1. It's probably a forbidden technique in order to rpevent people of low level from acquiring it, through this technique they'd get a much too powerfull tool for there level which could compromise their development as a shinobi or which can cause them to abuse the technique. I believe it was mentioned during the Naruto-Neeji fight that Kage Bunshin was a Jounin level technique, so it's thaught to hihger level shinobi only.
2. sasuke doesn't completely master his Sharingan yet, he can't copy techniques yet the way Kakashi can, besides I think to be able to use the kage Bunshin you need a large supply of chakra, something Naruto and other jounin have but Sasuke's chakra is alot lower.
I think Mishimoto changed his mind on this issue as he went along. The best interpretation / rationalisation I can come up with is that the scroll that Naruto stole in episode 1 contained some forbidden jutsus, but also others like Kage Bunshin which were just normal Jounin-level.
Either that or the Third was completely lazy and allowed anybody to steal the thing.
I've been asking the same question before, the answer should be somewhere in the Q/A thread =)
Divination
2004-08-21, 08:01
Either that or the Third was completely lazy and allowed anybody to steal the thing.[/QUOTE]
lol
kaizoku_65
2004-08-21, 08:34
Basically, Kage Bunshin is a high-level technique (Jounin level). Apart from naruto, the only pple who have used it are at or above Jounin level so it makes sense. Naruto as u already know only knows the technique coz the Kinjustu scroll Mizuki told him bout.
As for Sasuke copying it, he either doesn't feel he needs it (coz it devides your chakra) or he is abit too slow/inexperienced at copying ninjutsu as opposed to him being able to copy taijutsu (Lee's)
A question of my own; was Tajuu Kage Bunshin in the scroll as well or did Naruto make it up on his own?
IMO, one of the following explainations would work:
1) The Kage Bunshin is forbidden only from the Chunnins and Genins; cause the move requires too much Chakra and it would be risky for most people to use. Of course, Naruto is talented and is able to use the move like nobody else can :innocent: .
2) Kishimoto screwed up. He initially wanted the Kage Bunshin to be "forbidden", but changed his mind and let the others to use the move like it's worthless.
3) The anime people screwed up. Other than Naruto, the Sharingan people (Kakashi + Itachi) and the 3rd, who is supposed to be omipotent, no one else is supposed to know the move. Konohamaru's teacher knowing the move is ridicious enough, but Shizune knowing the move is utter BS. This is not the only example of the anime people screwing up; the "did Naruto use his red Chakra against Garaa?" question is another example of dubious scenes from the anime.
As for Sasuke using Kage bunshin, let's just put it this way: Sasuke will never copy any of Naruto's moves. He will not use the Kage Bunshin; he will not use the Rasengan and he certainly will not use the Harem no jutsu.
His ego will not allow him.
Nine Devil
2004-08-21, 09:26
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=620&highlight=Kage+bunshin
Search button is your friend.
As for Sasuke using Kage bunshin, let's just put it this way: Sasuke will never copy any of Naruto's moves. He will not use the Kage Bunshin; he will not use the Rasengan and he certainly will not use the Harem no jutsu.
His ego will not allow him.
Bahwahaha!
So true.
sayiajinman
2004-08-21, 10:09
its forbidden because its not fair to others when u can have ur own circle jerk..lol
Kage bunshin is SUPPOSED to be a "forbidden" technique... right? Then Y the hell does so many people know that technique!?!? (apart from naruto) Kakashi, Shizune, Konohamaru's teacher, 3rd Hokage and probably some others
PS y doesnt sasuke copy kage bunshin off naruto?
maybe because nobody cares except narutards? The animators certainly don't
wb_hicks
2004-08-21, 11:29
Kage bunshin isnt the forbidden jutsu Taiji Kage bunshin is the forbidden jutsu naruto learn from the scroll. its the extreme version of Kage bunshin. if you rewatch ep1 when naruto 1st opens and reads the 1st jutsu if you listen you will hear him say taiji Kage bunshin but the only put Kage bunshin is the sub.
Animizzle
2004-08-21, 12:11
Because adding the word "forbidden" makes it just a tad more menacing and scarier.
Because adding the word "forbidden" makes it just a tad more menacing and scarier.
i think certain high level jutsu's just recieve the title of forbidden jutsu's. meaning the skill should be guarded and released in a contolled fashion. this doesnt mean no one should use or learn these skills, just that thier release should be controlled. Of course certain techniques woudl be more forbidden than others. Also they refer to jutsu's that no one has written down as forbidden jutsu's some times, like oro's life technique he developed. Anyhow thats my theory on it from what i remember
Animizzle
2004-08-21, 12:48
Ofcourse is Yinstro right, but my point has a certain degree of truth in it :)
gangsta905_04
2004-08-21, 13:20
hmmm..think about it this way, if naruto has 100% of his chakra, and decides to make 99 clones, and equally disperse his chakra, each clone gets 1% of that chakra as well, he gets 1% too. Now if some1 were to defeat all these clones, 99% of naruto's original chakra is wasted, and naruto onli has 1% left, so what's he gonna do?..well..in situations like these he can use kyubbi..but say if kakashiis, his chakra from 100% would fall to 1%, thus putting him in grave danger, bye bye kakashi
hmmm..think about it this way, if naruto has 100% of his chakra, and decides to make 99 clones, and equally disperse his chakra, each clone gets 1% of that chakra as well, he gets 1% too. Now if some1 were to defeat all these clones, 99% of naruto's original chakra is wasted, and naruto onli has 1% left, so what's he gonna do?..well..in situations like these he can use kyubbi..but say if kakashiis, his chakra from 100% would fall to 1%, thus putting him in grave danger, bye bye kakashi
there is no logical explanation for many things in naruto. Just watch and enjoy the damn thing
hmmm..think about it this way, if naruto has 100% of his chakra, and decides to make 99 clones, and equally disperse his chakra, each clone gets 1% of that chakra as well, he gets 1% too. Now if some1 were to defeat all these clones, 99% of naruto's original chakra is wasted, and naruto onli has 1% left, so what's he gonna do?..well..in situations like these he can use kyubbi..but say if kakashiis, his chakra from 100% would fall to 1%, thus putting him in grave danger, bye bye kakashi
He can re-build more chakra from his stamina, the Kage Bunshin divides chakra, not the stamina.
gangsta905_04
2004-08-21, 17:05
but it woodve been dangerous if he was completely out of stamina (kakashi)..fiting without chakra...like taijitsu...then suddenly...he's got a lil stamina and using kage bunshin...then does the 100% divide thing..all of them go to waste...he's in deep trouble
fieryshadowcard
2004-08-21, 17:41
The reason for it being forbidden is not for the jutsu itself. It would seem that the technique is forbidden due to its applications.
An extremely powerful ninja could divide himself a great number of times and still have plenty of Chakra divided up in each clone to do a great deal of damage. Also, the technique not only seems to replicate a person, but the objects on that person as well.
Does this ring a bell?
Shiho... happo... shuriken no maki!
For some reason, Naruto's Kage Bunshin gave each of his clones shuriken as well.
Do you only have one explosive tag? Kage Bunshin'll replicate that for you.
It would seem that all physical clones have this ability to replicate weaponry, though. But Kage Bunshin seems to be the only type of clone that can use its Chakra for jutsus besides taijutsu.
There's the obvious application in conjunction with Henge. Make a bunch of clones and have them turn into the weapons you need for battle. During Kakashi's fight with Itachi, wasn't it his Shadow Clone that he sent to deal with Kisame ninjutsu-wise and his Water Clone to Itachi just for physical presence?
And then, as opposed to Zabuza's Water Clones, the amount of Shadow Clones a person can make seems infinite.
During Neji's fight with Naruto, he saw that Naruto had evenly divided up the Chakra in his clones, but that's no indication that the clones always have evenly divided Chakra. Perhaps a person can put as much Chakra into one clone as he sees fit. Also, it would seem that if one recalls a Shadow Clone on his own, he regains the Chakra from that clone. How else could Naruto still have enough energy to try and punch Neji after Neji hit the wrong Naruto in that fight? Hitting a clone should not have made all the other clones disappear.
A Water Clone... 10% of the caster's power, which is most likely 10% of the caster's Chakra. No matter how much Chakra this person has, the maximum number of Bunshin you can create with a Mizu Bunshin should be nine, and they seem to be destroyed immediately upon sustaining physical damage, whereas Kage Bunshin seems to be a little more durable (can sustain a little more damage before dying).
Also, ten percent of the caster's power could be in all regards. Not just 10% chakra or 10% stamina, but 10% the physical strength and everything. Kage Bunshins are divided by Chakra, but there is no indication that they are divided by everything else.
In terms of using clones for taijutsu only, if one person could use Mizu Bunshin and the other Kage Bunshin, and the both of them were at equal strength in every way, the Kage user would be at a disadvantage to use Kage Bunshin since he and his clone would be at 50%, but only if he dealt with the original enemy first, since the enemy would still have 90% power. However, using the Shadow Clone to take out the Water Clone would be incredibly simple, and then two 50% people attacking one 90% person would seem to be in the Kage user's favor. It's not until both people use nine clones that the battle evens out.
Ultimately, it seems that Kage Bunshin is a forbidden jutsu for its applications and not for the jutsu itself. After all, look at how the Third used it. Firstly, he used it to replicate kunai. Replicating objects can also be seen as forbidden, and the objects don't seem to dissipate afterward, either. Then, he used it in conjunction with the sealing jutsu. It would seem that a Bunshin has its own life even if it's not the real one. The Third would never have been able to seal the two Hokages and Orochi by himself. Even though he most likely would have been jumped if he attempted to go one by one, it seems that once you complete the seal on your own body, you die.
All we can really do is speculate, but there must be a reason that the jutsu is forbidden. They can't account for Hidden Mist Village's jutsu since Mizu Bunshin is, after all, not a Leaf technique.
-Yusef "The B.A.T." Pittman
Guys, watch Episode 1 again. Like hicks said, the technique Naruto learns from the scroll is Tajyuu Kage Bunshin, the version he uses against Gaara. There were some inconsistencies with that early in the series(he used Kage Bunshin in episode 1 against Mizuki, but Tajyuu Kage Bunshin against Kakashi in episode 4), but now it seems to refer exclusively to the massive number of clones that only Naruto has ever used. That level of the technique was probably forbidden because almost no ninja has enough chakra to successfully use it, and attempting it would probably have dire consequences with a normal chakra pool.
And then, as opposed to Zabuza's Water Clones, the amount of Shadow Clones a person can make seems infinite.
Actually, it was never even hinted that there is limit to the number of Water Clone that you can create.
During Neji's fight with Naruto, he saw that Naruto had evenly divided up the Chakra in his clones, but that's no indication that the clones always have evenly divided Chakra.
It's stated several times by several persons in the manga that the Kage Bunshin divides equally the chakra among the clones and the user.
Perhaps a person can put as much Chakra into one clone as he sees fit. Also, it would seem that if one recalls a Shadow Clone on his own, he regains the Chakra from that clone. How else could Naruto still have enough energy to try and punch Neji after Neji hit the wrong Naruto in that fight? Hitting a clone should not have made all the other clones disappear.
It's usefull to have an insane stamina and a demon inside yourself sometimes ;)
A Water Clone... 10% of the caster's power, which is most likely 10% of the caster's Chakra. No matter how much Chakra this person has, the maximum number of Bunshin you can create with a Mizu Bunshin should be nine, and they seem to be destroyed immediately upon sustaining physical damage, whereas Kage Bunshin seems to be a little more durable (can sustain a little more damage before dying).
Once again stamina isn't chakra, and I see no reason to think the Mizu Bunshin would take a percentage and not a precise amount of chakra like all the jutsu but the Kage Bunshin.
Btw a high level ninja seems to be able to keep 'alive' a Kage Bunshin even with a great amount of wound, The clones of the 3rd were stabbed and beaten but they didn't disappear in spite of that.
In terms of using clones for taijutsu only, if one person could use Mizu Bunshin and the other Kage Bunshin, and the both of them were at equal strength in every way, the Kage user would be at a disadvantage to use Kage Bunshin since he and his clone would be at 50%, but only if he dealt with the original enemy first, since the enemy would still have 90% power.
Huh? No absolutely not.
The Mizu Bunshins would have only 10% of the strength, speed, etc. of its user whereas the Kage Bunshin are as fast and strong than their user.
Heck, Sasuke destroyed half a dozen of the Mizu Bunshin of Zabuza in a split second.
And Zabuza didn't seem weakened by the effort, I think the Water Clone are cheaper chakra wise that you seem to think.
ImWeaseL
2004-08-21, 21:16
The way I see it, Kage Bunshin and Mizu Bunshin are very different.
The Kage Bunshin forcefully divides the user's remaining chakra equally among all the clones. This is probably why Neji couldn't tell the difference between the clones and the real Naruto.
Let's say Naruto has 1000CP(chakra points) and starts creates 1 Kage Bunshin. This leaves him with 500CP chakra and the clone will also have 500CP. The clone was taken out. Then Naruto decides to go with 5 Kage Bunshins this time. With only 500CP left, each clone would then have 100CP and it also leaves the original Naruto with only 100CP.
The Mizu Bunshin however, doesn't divide the user's chakra. A person just uses a set amount of chakra to make a clone with 10% of the user's strength and it can't go very far from the original body.
Zabuza decides to make 5 Mizu Bunshins and he has 800CP.Let's say the amount of chakra taken to make 1 Mizu Bunshin is 50CP. This will leave Zabuza with 550CP but each clone will have 80CP.
ps. Like wb_hicks said, the forbidden technique that Naruto learned from the scroll was Tajyuu Kage Bunshin. The subbers just didn't include that in the subs.
gangsta905_04
2004-08-22, 01:57
every1 is copying my theory..i hate u all!...look back at what i sed..with the kakashi examples!...using percents!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
fieryshadowcard
2004-08-22, 06:16
Actually, it was never even hinted that there is limit to the number of Water Clone that you can create.
It's a matter of reasoning. You can't make a copy of yourself that's stronger than you, so it must get its strength from somewhere. Unlike Kuchiyose, making a physical clone of yourself would mean there's a limit to the product of the jutsu. Since the Mizu Bunshin is stated to be at 10% of the original user's strength, 10% of the user's Chakra has to be put into the clone, establishing a limit.
It's stated several times by several persons in the manga that the Kage Bunshin divides equally the chakra among the clones and the user.
Could you point out the chapters with references other than Neji's? I'd appreciate it since it would finally clear that up for me.
It's usefull to have an insane stamina and a demon inside yourself sometimes ;)
Insane stamina or not, the division factor still stands. You need a certain amount of Chakra to make a battle-viable clone. All he's doing is expending it quicker with Kage Bunshin. Insane stamina plus Kage Bunshin still equals Chakra user (1) over however many clones created (x), or 1/x if Chakra is divided evenly like you say. When Naruto is using Kage Bunshin during battle, he's not getting huge supplies of extra energy unless he's directly calling upon Kyuubi or is being possessed. When Kyuubi's Chakra isn't oozing out of him, he still has a finite supply, and I can't see a Naruto with much of his Chakra expended trying to punch a Neji who has barely broken a sweat. I'm sorry, but recalling clones to regain Chakra still seems feasible to me.
Once again stamina isn't chakra, and I see no reason to think the Mizu Bunshin would take a percentage and not a precise amount of chakra like all the jutsu but the Kage Bunshin.
Haku says it's 10% strength. The things that determine general strength in Naruto are pretty much chakra capacity and stamina. Ten percent of the strength of the original (as opposed to 10% Chakra or 10% stamina) seems to be 10% in all aspects. Since stamina seems to determine basic physical function (ie. being out of stamina means you can't move), then 10% strength has to involve stamina in some way.
Btw a high level ninja seems to be able to keep 'alive' a Kage Bunshin even with a great amount of wound, The clones of the 3rd were stabbed and beaten but they didn't disappear in spite of that.
No kidding. That's what I said. Kage Bunshins are more durable than other clones.
Huh? No absolutely not.
The Mizu Bunshins would have only 10% of the strength, speed, etc. of its user whereas the Kage Bunshin are as fast and strong than their user.
Heck, Sasuke destroyed half a dozen of the Mizu Bunshin of Zabuza in a split second.
And Zabuza didn't seem weakened by the effort, I think the Water Clone are cheaper chakra wise that you seem to think.
Exactly. If Mizu has 10% strength, speed, etc., it stands to reason that it has 10% Chakra, stamina, etc.
There's still no indication that a Kage Bunshin is ALWAYS as fast and strong as its caster. That's only the case in equal division situations. I still believe a Kage Bunshin is ultimately as strong as the caster needs it to be. And, of course Sasuke cut through Water Clones and they died. They're WATER. The minute they leak, they're finished. And ten percent of Zabuza didn't have any trouble making Sasuke spit up blood the last time they met.
Having less Chakra doesn't necessarily translate to looking tired. Zabuza's primary form of attack is stealth. You don't need overbearing strength when one swing of an unseen sword can finish you. Zabuza's mission involved killing Tazuna. It would make sense to put 70% of himself into that since he also had confidence in Haku as support. And, since Zabuza's the cocky risk-taker type, betting everything really wouldn't surprise me, anyway.
-Yusef "The B.A.T." Pittman
It's a matter of reasoning. You can't make a copy of yourself that's stronger than you, so it must get its strength from somewhere. Unlike Kuchiyose, making a physical clone of yourself would mean there's a limit to the product of the jutsu. Since the Mizu Bunshin is stated to be at 10% of the original user's strength, 10% of the user's Chakra has to be put into the clone, establishing a limit.
Well no it hasn't.
The Mizu Bunsjin aren't real body using real chakra as the Kage Bunshin, it's water transformed in a clone.
There is no indication that a percentage is needed and there is no reason to.
Worse than that, we saw Zabuza using 6~8 of them and maybe more at the beginning of the second fight and he pretty much didn't care at all when Sasuke ripped them off in a split second.
Could you point out the chapters with references other than Neji's? I'd appreciate it since it would finally clear that up for me.
The Anbu captain stated that too during the fight the 3rd vs. Oro, I didn't have the manga on this HD so I can't tell you the precise chapter but it was at the beginning of the volume 14 just before the 3rd put 2 explosive note on the legs of the undead Hokages.
Insane stamina or not, the division factor still stands. You need a certain amount of Chakra to make a battle-viable clone. All he's doing is expending it quicker with Kage Bunshin. Insane stamina plus Kage Bunshin still equals Chakra user (1) over however many clones created (x), or 1/x if Chakra is divided evenly like you say. When Naruto is using Kage Bunshin during battle, he's not getting huge supplies of extra energy unless he's directly calling upon Kyuubi or is being possessed. When Kyuubi's Chakra isn't oozing out of him, he still has a finite supply, and I can't see a Naruto with much of his Chakra expended trying to punch a Neji who has barely broken a sweat. I'm sorry, but recalling clones to regain Chakra still seems feasible to me.
You still miss completely the point, the Kage Bunshin divides equally the chakra created of the user, not his stamina.
That's why Kakashi was able to bluff by creating useless clones with his few remaining chakra against the mobsters of Gatou.
Re-read the explanation of Ebisu about the creation of chakra at the end of the volume 10.
Haku says it's 10% strength. The things that determine general strength in Naruto are pretty much chakra capacity and stamina. Ten percent of the strength of the original (as opposed to 10% Chakra or 10% stamina) seems to be 10% in all aspects. Since stamina seems to determine basic physical function (ie. being out of stamina means you can't move), then 10% strength has to involve stamina in some way.[/quote]
No it simply hasn't, except that the Ninja will use a certain amount his stamina to create a certain amount of chakra needed to create a water clone.
No kidding. That's what I said. Kage Bunshins are more durable than other clones.
I was agreeing.
Exactly. If Mizu has 10% strength, speed, etc., it stands to reason that it has 10% Chakra, stamina, etc.
No it's not, you keep saying that whereas there is absolutely no logical reason for that.
There's still no indication that a Kage Bunshin is ALWAYS as fast and strong as its caster. That's only the case in equal division situations. I still believe a Kage Bunshin is ultimately as strong as the caster needs it to be.
Same as above.
And, of course Sasuke cut through Water Clones and they died. They're WATER. The minute they leak, they're finished. And ten percent of Zabuza didn't have any trouble making Sasuke spit up blood the last time they met.
The last time they met, Sasuke annihilated a bunch of Mizu Bunshin like nothing, it was during the volume 3.
Having less Chakra doesn't necessarily translate to looking tired. Zabuza's primary form of attack is stealth. You don't need overbearing strength when one swing of an unseen sword can finish you. Zabuza's mission involved killing Tazuna. It would make sense to put 70% of himself into that since he also had confidence in Haku as support. And, since Zabuza's the cocky risk-taker type, betting everything really wouldn't surprise me, anyway.
Less chakra meant that you used your stamina, using too much stamina will make tired, simple as that.
Put 70~80% of himself for mere decoys annihilated in a split second by a little brat like Sasuke?
No It doesn't make sense at all.
Lee-pimp
2004-08-22, 19:41
the kage bunshin isnt in fact forbidden neither are most of the jutsu in that scroll. the scroll contains all the jutsu from konoha so its something they dont want to let out, which is why its forbidden for people to look at hence the name forbidden scroll of seals or sometehing like that.
imagine kage bunshin 10 guys on 1 girl, thats y its forbidden...
gangsta905_04
2004-08-22, 21:49
LOL....i cant stop laughing.
LOL....i cant stop laughing.
It really wasn't that funny.
Kagebunshin divides chakra equally among all the clones and the original. It's been stated numerous times.
The clones seem to know that they are in fact clones. Sometimes all of the Naruto's exhibit a hivemind, while at other times they don't.
It seems to me that the original might feel the pain given to the clones - which is why sometimes they dissipate when hit and don't vanish at other times. If Naruto can fight through the pain and maintain concentration, then the clones stay alive. If he loses it, then the clones are gone.
It's the best explanation that I can come up with, anyway.
Mizu Bunshin: We haven't seen this jutsu in action a whole lot.
We have never seen a Mizubunshin use nin/genjutsu, only taijutsu, so maybe the clone cannot form chakra. This would make sense, since it is formed out of water rather than being a complete body like Kagebunshin.
I'm not sure about 10% speed in the same category as strength or endurance. Most likely the 10% strength comes once again from the fact that it is essentialy a giant puddle of water, which can't hit with the same kind of impact that a fully-sized human body can (or something like that. I'm a little sleepy right now.)
I think what makes kage bushin dangerous is the fact you are creating a real replica. Having your own chakra pool and being equal to the initial user is an amazing ability. If you have skill and dont get hit you can do just about anything. think of someoen with gai's speed and taijutsu skill using kage bushin. also your bushin are able to use ninja techniques, and can really effect the world. while zabuza's clones are water, and cant use chakra, a kage bushin can. Its not a low level technique. Also dont overestimate the word forbbiden. its just a word
FireBorn
2004-08-23, 02:41
hmmm..think about it this way, if naruto has 100% of his chakra, and decides to make 99 clones, and equally disperse his chakra, each clone gets 1% of that chakra as well, he gets 1% too. Now if some1 were to defeat all these clones, 99% of naruto's original chakra is wasted, and naruto onli has 1% left, so what's he gonna do?..well..in situations like these he can use kyubbi..but say if kakashiis, his chakra from 100% would fall to 1%, thus putting him in grave danger, bye bye kakashi
Then assuming Naruto didn't use Kyubi's chakra during the Gaara fight (I don't think anyone knows if he did or not -- but it seems to only happen when emotional) then would he have 0.1% chakra?
Like hunterx said: Just enjoy. It's a good anime. Doesn't matter if it has some flaws. You'll enjoy it more if you don't look for all the bad things in it.
Then assuming Naruto didn't use Kyubi's chakra during the Gaara fight (I don't think anyone knows if he did or not -- but it seems to only happen when emotional) then would he have 0.1% chakra?
Yep, and thats why Naruto uses Kyuubi chakra from then on out, because hes got very little left, he actually says that too.
Dreamhacker
2004-08-23, 14:18
It's the Scroll that is dangerous, cause it includes so many jutsus, and u see how easy naruto learned it from the Scroll.
gangsta905_04
2004-08-23, 22:09
another point, LAZY NINJAS dont want to waste their time learning moves....hehe they want to spend time mastering it....thats what the forbidden scroll is for
Animizzle
2004-08-24, 10:55
another point, LAZY NINJAS dont want to waste their time learning moves....hehe they want to spend time mastering it....thats what the forbidden scroll is for
eh..? elaborate
The-Wolf-Of-Mibu
2004-08-24, 13:06
Remember back when Zabuza had kakashi locked up in the water prison.
Sasuke tried to fight zabuza's mizubunshin but got his ass kicked so bad.
But then a few days later after some tree climbing exercisizes,
Sasuke beats down 10 zabuza clones like they are nothing.
What happened there?
Dreamhacker
2004-08-24, 13:59
Not sure, but then he was able to use the Sharingan a little, and could see through the clones, and the training had made him master chackra control better, so then he was stronger and faster.
The-Wolf-Of-Mibu
2004-08-24, 14:08
Not sure, but then he was able to use the Sharingan a little, and could see through the clones, and the training had made him master chackra control better, so then he was stronger and faster.
Sasuke couldnt use sharingan yet at that point either, All that had changed was that he had learned some chakra control. That shouldnt have made such a giant difference.
gangsta905_04
2004-08-24, 14:13
eh..? elaborate
hmmm..lemme put it this way...that scroll is forbidden..because no1 wants any ninja to learn a move the easy way, by reading the scroll..get it??
Dreamhacker
2004-08-24, 14:14
Sasuke couldnt use sharingan yet at that point either, All that had changed was that he had learned some chakra control. That shouldnt have made such a giant difference.
He could use it a little. He says it. He is beginning to see with the sharingan, and when they fights Haku, he is able to use it pretty much
AngelKyo
2004-08-24, 14:55
I don't believe the shadow replication is dangerous because it's not....
The-Wolf-Of-Mibu
2004-08-24, 15:01
Kage bunshin is not dangerous.
The reason it was in that book is because probably each village has its own book of highly guarded Jutsus.
It is dangerous if other villages learn your jutsu's.
Kage bunshin is a Konoha only Jutsu.
They dont want other countries rival ninja learning it.
Remember when kakashi fought Itachi, Kakashi used Mizu bunshin which he had copied from zabuza.
Kisame said "Heh ... copy ninja has come a long way since copying our Jutsu."
Key word here being "OUR"
Its seems each village/country has its own types of Jutsu's that theyd rather no other villages learn.
And so that book naruto stole doesnt contain only "evil jutsu's". It contains "Forbidden jutsu's." which are dangerous jutsu's as well as jutsus that the village consideres high level and Konoha trademark.
Mitsukage
2004-08-25, 11:03
Speaking of this jutsu, how does Shizune knows how to use it since it's forbidden? (ep 97)
ask the anime squad who made that ep
Macbrother
2004-08-25, 11:31
I don't know if this has been said yet, but when Naruto read off the technique (which he was going to learn) he said clearly, "Tajuu Kage bunshin", i.e., the mass Kage bunshin technique. It's certainly possible the 'normal' kage bunshin in which one or two clones are created aren't forbidden, but high level. The tajuu form is probably forbidden for obvious reasons, that technique can be very dangerous and uses an apparent enormous amount of chakra.
The Kage bunshee is just the BASIC to the others forbidden no jutso :P
kage bunshin cant let you replicate anything, can it?
however you guys are idiots. THink about it, if you can create yourself a fully functioning clone (not a illusion), and use henge bushin to make it look like someone else, you can commit all the crimes you want, and you wont get caught but the clones will.
yes i can didnt you see the third hokage replicate his shurikens.
Speaking of this jutsu, how does Shizune knows how to use it since it's forbidden? (ep 97)
i think all jounin (i think she is a jounin atlest she is as strong as one) will be able to learn it kakshi used it to eibusan (or what his name was) could use it to.
Windblade
2006-10-25, 08:30
I just had a random thought and i couldnt find anyone asking the question either , Naruto taught himself "kage bushin" shadow replication within the first few episodes right from the scroll of forbidden techniques , but why is it a forbidden technique , it doeant seem that bad at all, its even a very usefull technique " if u read the latest manga you know what i mean"
does any one know ?
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=620
A quick use of the search function and You can find a topic about it. ;)
In short, the one that is forbidden is the Taiju Kage BUshin, given the amount of Chakra it requires to create that massive amount of Clone, which it could be fatal to any normal Ninja.
chuckcsf
2006-10-25, 18:54
It's dangerous because if one creates a kage bushin and use the sexy jutsu and they have sex, they can have offsprings that have the properties of a real human and a clone.
Suna no tate
2006-10-25, 21:45
My understanding of the kage bunshin is as follows. When you use it, your chakra is evenly diveded between you and whatever number of clones you form. This is always bad (unless you're naruto). lets say you form 1 clone. If that clone is blown up or something, that chakra you used to form that clone is gone (50% of your total chakra). If you form 100 clones, each clone has 1% of your total chakra, but then you yourself have only 1% of you chakra. What techniques can you use? This technique hurts the user too much and has very little benefit. Better to just ban it all together. Naruto however overrides the technique but only when he has the kyubi to draw from. At that point, its the kyubi thats losing chakra, but it has near infinite chakra to start with.
My understanding of the kage bunshin is as follows. When you use it, your chakra is evenly diveded between you and whatever number of clones you form. This is always bad (unless you're naruto). lets say you form 1 clone. If that clone is blown up or something, that chakra you used to form that clone is gone (50% of your total chakra). If you form 100 clones, each clone has 1% of your total chakra, but then you yourself have only 1% of you chakra. What techniques can you use? This technique hurts the user too much and has very little benefit. Better to just ban it all together. Naruto however overrides the technique but only when he has the kyubi to draw from. At that point, its the kyubi thats losing chakra, but it has near infinite chakra to start with.
Yes, don’t forget if you use all your chakra/run out of it you could die. The other thing that’s dangerous about the Kage bunshin is, remember the training naruto is doing right now? Once you cancel the jutsu everything the clones learned if they were near you or 2 miles away, all comes rushing back in to the jutsu user's head. Can you imagine if you were using a 1000 clones and a shit load of information bum rushed your brain at once trying to get in there and squeeze in tight, how much mental stress you would suffer?
The interesting point about this is, heh Kakashi knows the kage bunshin XD i think he used sharingan on naruto because, if its a forbiddin jutsu how else?
Medalist
2006-10-25, 22:07
Maybe he just knows how to do it cuz he good and an pervy sneak :)
A few points to ponder .....
In the first few episodes, when Naruto was convinced into stealing the forbidden scroll ... when he looks in the scroll, he mentions that it says that in order to learn anything in the scroll, you have to master the shadow replication FIRST. He was a little glum for a bit, but then he got to work on it and mastered it as well as it's higher forms.
Second ... the Kage Bunshin does not take all your current chakra and divide it among the number of clones .... there is a minimal amount of chakra that must be expended per clone, but the chakra that is split between the user and his shadow replications is THE AMOUNT OF CHAKRA THAT WAS MOLDED. Thus, you could theoretically make a huge number of weak clones, or a small number of fairly strong clones. The problem with Naruto, however, is that he has absolutely no freaking control at all ... he's always shoving every drop of chakra he's got into his techniques. It's not till after the first 30 - 40 episodes or so that he begins to learn a little control and not make so many at a time, but when he loses his cool he blows out his chakra level again at the drop of a hat.
Third ... I would also like to support the opinion that if a teenage boy knew the shadow clone technique and the sexy technique, he would never leave home.
Kage Bushin is dangerous simply because ... its the perfect recon, training, chakra management, baiting and much more technique all rolled in one. If Shika had that in his lineup ... be rest assured ... he would own the playing field. Hands down.
Kage Bushin is dangerous simply because ... its the perfect recon, training, chakra management, baiting and much more technique all rolled in one. If Shika had that in his lineup ... be rest assured ... he would own the playing field. Hands down.
Even if he could master the shadow replication and use the shadow bind technique to hold an opponent in place, with only half his chakra available at max to hold the opponent still (a tough proposition), striking that opponent while he is under the effects of the shadow bind inflicts damage on BOTH of them. For reference, see what happened to Shikimaru when he stopped Gaara from attacking the unconcious Rock Lee after the 2nd stage of the Chuunin Exam, in Naruto's presense. Naruto ran up and hit Gaara, and Shikimaru immediately complained ... because he was hit too.
The interesting point about this is, heh Kakashi knows the kage bunshin XD i think he used sharingan on naruto because, if its a forbiddin jutsu how else?
Because Kage Bushin is not a forbidden Jutsu, is Taijou Kage Bushin.
Kage Bushin is dangerous simply because ... its the perfect recon, training, chakra management, baiting and much more technique all rolled in one. If Shika had that in his lineup ... be rest assured ... he would own the playing field. Hands down.
Ermmm No, The question is why is Dangerous for the user not why is Dangerous for the enemy.
Simply its dangerous because the amount of Clones Taijuo Kage Bushin create consumes Chakra that goes beyond any Human capacity. Thus it could be a fatal Jutsu, just like opening 8 Gates.
Even if he could master the shadow replication and use the shadow bind technique to hold an opponent in place, with only half his chakra available at max to hold the opponent still (a tough proposition), striking that opponent while he is under the effects of the shadow bind inflicts damage on BOTH of them. For reference, see what happened to Shikimaru when he stopped Gaara from attacking the unconcious Rock Lee after the 2nd stage of the Chuunin Exam, in Naruto's presense. Naruto ran up and hit Gaara, and Shikimaru immediately complained ... because he was hit too.
You make it sound like Shika isnt smart enough to find his way around that. : /
Of course he is ... just stating the obvious that he can't simply hold the opponent in place and pummel the shit out of them, it just wouldn't work.
Sabaku Kyu
2006-10-26, 10:57
striking that opponent while he is under the effects of the shadow bind inflicts damage on BOTH of them. For reference, see what happened to Shikimaru when he stopped Gaara from attacking the unconcious Rock Lee after the 2nd stage of the Chuunin Exam, in Naruto's presense. Naruto ran up and hit Gaara, and Shikimaru immediately complained ... because he was hit too.
No. He only moves like his opponent. He doesn't take damage. Remember how he defeated Kin in the chuunin exams. If he took the same damage, he would've been knocked out as well. He complained to Naruto about hitting Garra because his head was suddenly jerked back, but he didn't feel the punch.
I too agree that Shikamaru with KB would be a very dangerous opponent. Probably overpowered. He could make far better use of the bunshin than Naruto or most Konoha ninja I could think of.
Of course he is ... just stating the obvious that he can't simply hold the opponent in place and pummel the shit out of them, it just wouldn't work.
Does Shika strike you as a brute forcer or a thinker?
deathsSt4lker
2006-10-26, 13:23
aint it considerd a dangerous technique cause it take ther very life 2 use it?
Kage Bunshin...Taiji...Massive Chakra
Let's see
from the latest Manga
Kakashi explained Kage Bunshin as
a very useful tech.
why?
as Naruto uses KB
each CLONE
can get stronger than before
then as they are compiled to the original again
the original had saved
time
gained more power than
a usual one on one training (not using KB)
or usual gaining of power through experience in
battles...
which means...
These attributes are the things that makes the KB dangerous!
Especially if it would be learned by someone with a brain of Shika, skills of Itachi/other powerful characters in NARUTO and intentions of both Oro and Akatsuki!!
haiz123321
2006-10-26, 22:11
so basically what ur saying kyashi is that as the original gets stronger the clones get stronger? >_<
i would agree KB as dangerous b'coz
1)Your clones have a mind of their own
2)They may rebel on you
3)Since they are you clone they will have your characteristics meaning u have 2 have a pure mind and stuff if you have bad habbits and dirty thinking they will also have that and maybe rape your girlfriend lol
Suna no tate
2006-10-26, 22:53
No no no! Its all about the chakra division! All clones can be used for scouting, be they water, wood, sand, etc. (yamato's wood clone was used specifically for scouting) However with shadow clones, they are purely all chakra. Other clones are chakra and stuff. Because the shadow clones are pure chakra, a problem arises where the chakra is split evenly between the user and the clones. There's almost no good situation for it. If you form 1 clone, it has 50 percent of your chakra. If it gets destroyed, you've lost 50%! if you form 100, clones, then you have only 1% of your chakra. Sure you can lose a lot of clones then, but with only 1% what kind of techniques can you use?! Maybe 4 or 5 clones would be ok, but still the amount of chakra held per clone is still dangerous. You'd be better off using clones made of stuff (like how everybody does! Zabuza with the water, yamato with the wood, gaara with the sand clones, orochimaru with the mud clones, etc), that only use a little and finite amount of chakra. These clones may be weaker than you, but its clear they're still better in general combat situations, better that is unless you're naruto.
Sabaku Kyu
2006-10-27, 08:43
The latest manga chapter revealed some interesting information about Naruto's bunshin...
Individual clones have the ability to sprout multiple tails.. something I previously thought was impossible. I believed that when Naruto went to tailed-form all the KB automatically disappeared, but apparently that's not the case. This means that you could have multiple 1 to 4 tailed Narutos wreaking havoc. But this could make tajuu kage bunshin very dangerous for Naruto, considering the extensive damage that the 4-tailed form does to him and the strain of the mass cloning technique on his body. If his clones started sprouting tails, wouldn't the damage to Naruto be multiplied on his already weakened body?
The latest manga chapter revealed some interesting information about Naruto's bunshin...
Individual clones have the ability to sprout multiple tails.. something I previously thought was impossible. I believed that when Naruto went to tailed-form all the KB automatically disappeared, but apparently that's not the case. This means that you could have multiple 1 to 4 tailed Narutos wreaking havoc. But this could make tajuu kage bunshin very dangerous for Naruto, considering the extensive damage that the 4-tailed form does to him and the strain of the mass cloning technique on his body. If his clones started sprouting tails, wouldn't the damage to Naruto be multiplied on his already weakened body?
Reply to Sabaku Kyu
Dont read if you have not read chapter 239 warning
Um, why would his clone going kyubi do damage to his original body. That’s like saying every time one of his clones takes a smack the original body of Naruto gets hit as well.
This brings up some interesting points though,
1. What if Naruto did a kage bunshin of 2 clones, had both go 2-3 or 4 tail and sent them off to do the fighting while HE him self remained normal so if the clones went out of control he could release the jutsu and bam, there you have it a safe way to use the 9 tail's chakra.
2. This is Anti-clone kyubi considering how much damage the 4 tail does to Naruto.. and I use that term loosely because obviously his skin was pealed off SERIOUS damage. Don’t you think a clone would disperse right after hitting Kyubi? I mean, Kage Bunshin's are pretty weak take a good direct hit and Poof, what’s to say the damage being done by being in the 4 tail state wont make them go "Poof"?
3. Addition to #2, after reconsideration I guess the chakra would not really disperse, because once hitting 3-4 tail or even 2 tail the clone would have "Unlimited Chakra Pool" right? Or would it?
4. Addition to #3, If the clones do indeed have a Unlimited Chakra Pool which does not cause them to go "Poof" does that mean Naruto will be UNABLE to release the jutsu if a clone DOES go Kyubi? (Or.. does Releasing a Kage Bunshin Jutsu have nothing to do with the clones having unlimited chakra pool or not, I'm going to go with Releasing a Jutsu has nothing to do with either or)
Sabaku Kyu
2006-10-27, 09:48
Um, why would his clone going kyubi do damage to his original body. That’s like saying every time one of his clones takes a smack the original body of Naruto gets hit as well.
This brings up some interesting points though,
1. What if Naruto did a kage bunshin of 2 clones, had both go 2-3 or 4 tail and sent them off to do the fighting while HE him self remained normal so if the clones went out of control he could release the jutsu and bam, there you have it a safe way to use the 9 tail's chakra.
2. This is Anti-clone kyubi considering how much damage the 4 tail does to Naruto.. and I use that term loosely because obviously his skin was pealed off SERIOUS damage. Don’t you think a clone would disperse right after hitting Kyubi? I mean, Kage Bunshin's are pretty weak take a good direct hit and Poof, what’s to say the damage being done by being in the 4 tail state wont make them go "Poof"?
3. Addition to #2, after reconsideration I guess the chakra would not really disperse, because once hitting 3-4 tail or even 2 tail the clone would have "Unlimited Chakra Pool" right? Or would it?
4. Addition to #3, If the clones do indeed have a Unlimited Chakra Pool which does not cause them to go "Poof" does that mean Naruto will be UNABLE to release the jutsu if a clone DOES go Kyubi? (Or.. does Releasing a Kage Bunshin Jutsu have nothing to do with the clones having unlimited chakra pool or not, I'm going to go with Releasing a Jutsu has nothing to do with either or)
I wasn't talking so much about Naruto taking the damage that clones were taking. I was talking about Naruto taking damage from forcing more chakra out of his body to create the clones. The clones are just chakra, meaning they rely on chakra from the original Naruto to transform. The more chakra Naruto forces from his body in the 4-tailed state, the more damage he receives. Then once he releases the KB, he'll have to take the massive drop in stamina in addition to the added damage. His regenative powers will have to work overtime to compensate and his lifespan will be reduced much more quickly.
1. That could work. But I'm not sure that Naruto or his clones can turn the transformation on and off like a switch yet. He has to sorta work his way into a frenzied state to transform. Meaning in a battle situation, his clones wouldn't transform unless Naruto himself was transformed or close to transforming.
2, 3, 4. Good point. The clones would probably disperse once they took a certain amount of damage from the transformation. Even the 4-tailed state doesn't provide unlimited chakra, though the chakra pool would be huge at this point. So the clones could be willingly released by Naruto, but the damage would already be done. Naruto would be seriously weakened and vulnerable to his enemies.
I wasn't talking so much about Naruto taking the damage that clones were taking. I was talking about Naruto taking damage from forcing more chakra out of his body to create the clones. The clones are just chakra, meaning they rely on chakra from the original Naruto to transform. The more chakra Naruto forces from his body in the 4-tailed state, the more damage he receives. Then once he releases the KB, he'll have to take the massive drop in stamina in addition to the added damage. His regenative powers will have to work overtime to compensate and his lifespan will be reduced much more quickly.
1. That could work. But I'm not sure that Naruto or his clones can turn the transformation on and off like a switch yet. He has to sorta work his way into a frenzied state to transform. Meaning in a battle situation, his clones wouldn't transform unless Naruto himself was transformed or close to transforming.
2, 3, 4. Good point. The clones would probably disperse once they took a certain amount of damage from the transformation. Even the 4-tailed state doesn't provide unlimited chakra, though the chakra pool would be huge at this point. So the clones could be willingly released by Naruto, but the damage would already be done. Naruto would be seriously weakened and vulnerable to his enemies.
Name: Kage Bunshin no Jutsu, 影分身の術, literally "Shadow Clone Technique", "Shadow Doppelganger Technique", or "Shadow Replication Technique", Early Viz "Art of the Doppelganger", Recent Viz "Art of the Shadow Doppelganger", English TV "Shadow Clone Jutsu", UK DVD "Art of Shadow Body Splitting"
Type: B-rank, Supplementary
Users: Naruto Uzumaki, some Jonin-level ninja
Unlike the normal Clone Technique, this jutsu creates actual clones of the user. The user's chakra is evenly distributed among every clone, giving each clone an equal fraction of the user's overall power.
What this says to me is, that once a clone is made it is its OWN body with its OWN chakra, from what you say it sounds as if you are saying that in order for the clones to stay alive it keeps on sucking Chakra of the jutsu user while the clone is active but that’s not the case. Once a kage bunshin is created it is totally cut off from Naruto its just another Naruto with the same information in mind BUT it has its OWN mind (we see this because kakashi gives a exmaple of it while showing Naruto with rock paper's sissors), we clearly see that in the Mange when the clone starts to go kyubi the original naruto does not, nor does any of the other clones they run off in different directions for Yamoto (Tenzo) to do his job.
Also I thought Jiraiya taught Naruto how to go Kyubi any time he wants to because.. from what it seems like he willingly went Kyubi when he fought oro and kabuto and Jiraiya saying "Don’t use that Jutsu" indicates that it IS indeed under Naruto's control to go kyubi or not, so if he did 1 kage bunshin and that clone was its own separate body with 50% of Naruto's chakra in it, and the knowledge of how to trigger the Kyubi Charka, then right there you should have a safe bet because if it goes insane the REAL Naruto who’s just chilling and watching could just release it and do the same thing again if needed.
Sabaku Kyu
2006-10-27, 10:42
Name: Kage Bunshin no Jutsu, 影分身の術, literally "Shadow Clone Technique", "Shadow Doppelganger Technique", or "Shadow Replication Technique", Early Viz "Art of the Doppelganger", Recent Viz "Art of the Shadow Doppelganger", English TV "Shadow Clone Jutsu", UK DVD "Art of Shadow Body Splitting"
Type: B-rank, Supplementary
Users: Naruto Uzumaki, some Jonin-level ninja
Unlike the normal Clone Technique, this jutsu creates actual clones of the user. The user's chakra is evenly distributed among every clone, giving each clone an equal fraction of the user's overall power.
What this says to me is, that once a clone is made it is its OWN body with its OWN chakra, from what you say it sounds as if you are saying that in order for the clones to stay alive it keeps on sucking Chakra of the jutsu user while the clone is active but that’s not the case. Once a kage bunshin is created it is totally cut off from Naruto its just another Naruto with the same information in mind BUT it has its OWN mind (we see this because kakashi gives a exmaple of it while showing Naruto with rock paper's sissors), we clearly see that in the Mange when the clone starts to go kyubi the original naruto does not, nor does any of the other clones they run off in different directions for Yamoto (Tenzo) to do his job.
Also I thought Jiraiya taught Naruto how to go Kyubi any time he wants to because.. from what it seems like he willingly went Kyubi when he fought oro and kabuto and Jiraiya saying "Don’t use that Jutsu" indicates that it IS indeed under Naruto's control to go kyubi or not, so if he did 1 kage bunshin and that clone was its own separate body with 50% of Naruto's chakra in it, and the knowledge of how to trigger the Kyubi Charka, then right there you should have a safe bet because if it goes insane the REAL Naruto who’s just chilling and watching could just release it and do the same thing again if needed.
Naruto is a special case I would assume. If Naruto divides his current chakra among the clones does that mean that they all receive the Kyuubi's massive chakra? It seems like if Naruto can divide his chakra while in the normal state and each of the clones has the ability to transform, then they must be drawing the chakra from somewhere because they certainly don't all contain their own Kyuubi.
Naruto can draw the Kyuubi's chakra anytime he wishes, we learned that in his fight with Neji. But going into the tailed- state is another matter. Naruto has never demonstrated the ability to grow tails beyond when his basic instincts allow it. Naruto was enraged when he saw Orochimaru because it made him think of Sasuke and then his instinct took over. He also doesn't have the ability to control the number of tails. Once the tails start to grow, Naruto cannot just decide that he wants to stay in a two-tailed state. The Kyuubi's chakra will take over.
Naruto is a special case I would assume. If Naruto divides his current chakra among the clones does that mean that they all receive the Kyuubi's massive chakra? It seems like if Naruto can divide his chakra while in the normal state and each of the clones has the ability to transform, then they must be drawing the chakra from somewhere because they certainly don't all contain their own Kyuubi.
Naruto can draw the Kyuubi's chakra anytime he wishes, we learned that in his fight with Neji. But going into the tailed- state is another matter. Naruto has never demonstrated the ability to grow tails beyond when his basic instincts allow it. Nor does he have the ability to control the number of tails. Once the tails start to grow, Naruto cannot just decide that he wants to stay in a two-tailed state. The Kyuubi's chakra will take over.
I feel your wrong here, because that is like saying if Naruto when in the Kyubi state did a kage bunshin, All the bunshin's will be normal while the original one staying Kyubi mode. Which is not true, as it states a Kage Bunshin is a perfect replica Naruto does not have to give it 50% of his Chakra he could give it 1% and it will STILL create a exact clone of Naruto. Creating a clone does not cut the user's Chakra in half, just if you make 2 clones they both must have an Equal amount.
Unlike the normal Clone Technique, this jutsu creates actual clones of the user. The user's chakra is evenly distributed among every clone, giving each clone an equal fraction of the user's overall power
So why wouldn’t the Fox inside him create its own bunshin for the bunshin evenly distributing its Kyubi chakra to the other Kyubi's inside the bunshin? It makes no sense.
Suna no tate
2006-10-27, 10:54
Actually I'm not sure about that. Can Naruto decide to draw just enough for the one tailed transformation? I think yes and maybe enough for a two tailed state where he's not killing everyone. The problem however might be its too costly to use all the time and when he's in that state, its 2 people fighting. Naruto and the kyubi, vs whoever. There's the health risk, and since two personalities are working here, if naruto is weakened, the kyubi will gain even more control in that situation: not a absolutely terrible thing since even then it might just go to the next tail (three...). I'd just say reverting to a kyubi state is the last resort or is Naruto's trump card...
Sabaku Kyu
2006-10-27, 12:13
I feel your wrong here, because that is like saying if Naruto when in the Kyubi state did a kage bunshin, All the bunshin's will be normal while the original one staying Kyubi mode. Which is not true, as it states a Kage Bunshin is a perfect replica Naruto does not have to give it 50% of his Chakra he could give it 1% and it will STILL create a exact clone of Naruto. Creating a clone does not cut the user's Chakra in half, just if you make 2 clones they both must have an Equal amount.
Unlike the normal Clone Technique, this jutsu creates actual clones of the user. The user's chakra is evenly distributed among every clone, giving each clone an equal fraction of the user's overall power
So why wouldn’t the Fox inside him create its own bunshin for the bunshin evenly distributing its Kyubi chakra to the other Kyubi's inside the bunshin? It makes no sense.
I still say that the clones draw upon Naruto when they want to transform. It's kinda hard to explain it the way I want to though. But I'll try:
- If Naruto uses Tajuu Kage Bunshin without the aid of the Kyuubi (which we should all agree he can do) then he is the only one putting chakra into those clones which means that they wouldn't get any demon chakra or a kyuubi bunshin or anything like that b/c the Kyubbi had no influence in the technique. Yet, the clones all have the ability to draw the demon chakra, grow tails and such. How is that? They shouldn't be able to because they have no inherent demon inside them right? The only way it'd be possible is if the drew from the original Naruto as the source. Now if Naruto is already in the demon state and performs the technique, then yes the clones might get an equal share of the demon's chakra, but only as much chakra as the demon has already leaked out for Naruto. This is only speculation of course, because so far, Naruto has yet to perform the technique within a tailed-state.
Evidence to support this? In chp 276 when Naruto transforms into the two-tailed state, one of his clones complains of the pain from the demon chakra. Now why would he feel pain if he had his own demon chakra system that was completely separate from Naruto's? If a KB transforms however, the other KB don't feel it neither does the original Naruto. That's because the clone is only drawing the Kyuubi's power from the original. Whereas if the original Naruto transforms his chakra leaks into the clones.
@Suna no Tate
This might change later in the manga, but Naruto has never shown the ability to grow any tails from a calm state. It's done almost purely from instinct/kyuubi's will
- If Naruto uses Tajuu Kage Bunshin without the aid of the Kyuubi (which we should all agree he can do)
NO, He can't
Suna no tate
2006-10-27, 12:51
True true, but I think there are factors to be controlled for. Its not like naruto just uses the kyubi's chakra for fun. He uses it when it has to be used. Also, he has shown lucidity while in a 1 tailed state. Sasuke held a little conversation with him while a 1 tailed state and Naruto completely understood and gave various nonverbal responses. And naruto can talk in the one tailed state. He's said a word: rasengan. Granted its not much, but it wasn't much of a talking situation to begin with.
I still say that the clones draw upon Naruto when they want to transform. It's kinda hard to explain it the way I want to though. But I'll try:
- If Naruto uses Tajuu Kage Bunshin without the aid of the Kyuubi (which we should all agree he can do) then he is the only one putting chakra into those clones which means that they wouldn't get any demon chakra or a kyuubi bunshin or anything like that b/c the Kyubbi had no influence in the technique. Yet, the clones all have the ability to draw the demon chakra, grow tails and such. How is that? They shouldn't be able to because they have no inherent demon inside them right? The only way it'd be possible is if the drew from the original Naruto as the source. Now if Naruto is already in the demon state and performs the technique, then yes the clones might get an equal share of the demon's chakra, but only as much chakra as the demon has already leaked out for Naruto. This is only speculation of course, because so far, Naruto has yet to perform the technique within a tailed-state.
Evidence to support this? In chp 276 when Naruto transforms into the two-tailed state, one of his clones complains of the pain from the demon chakra. Now why would he feel pain if he had his own demon chakra system that was completely separate from Naruto's? If a KB transforms however, the other KB don't feel it neither does the original Naruto. That's because the clone is only drawing the Kyuubi's power from the original. Whereas if the original Naruto transforms his chakra leaks into the clones.
@Suna no Tate
This might change later in the manga, but Naruto has never shown the ability to grow any tails from a calm state. It's done almost purely from instinct/kyuubi's will
Hmm, ok I guess that makes some sense but when it comes down to it, we will never know the truth because it will never happen lol. Only Kishimoto knows these rules, that when a bunshin is created by naruto does it also create a bunshin of the kyubi inside the bunshin of naruto. That Dauthi guy pointed out the same thing I did lol.
By the way I read chapter 276 just now.. I didn’t see anything about any clone mentioning pain can you recheck that and let me know, I don’t seem to recall it.
-Thanks.
I still say that the clones draw upon Naruto when they want to transform. It's kinda hard to explain it the way I want to though. But I'll try:
- If Naruto uses Tajuu Kage Bunshin without the aid of the Kyuubi (which we should all agree he can do) then he is the only one putting chakra into those clones which means that they wouldn't get any demon chakra or a kyuubi bunshin or anything like that b/c the Kyubbi had no influence in the technique. Yet, the clones all have the ability to draw the demon chakra, grow tails and such. How is that? They shouldn't be able to because they have no inherent demon inside them right? The only way it'd be possible is if the drew from the original Naruto as the source. Now if Naruto is already in the demon state and performs the technique, then yes the clones might get an equal share of the demon's chakra, but only as much chakra as the demon has already leaked out for Naruto. This is only speculation of course, because so far, Naruto has yet to perform the technique within a tailed-state.
Evidence to support this? In chp 276 when Naruto transforms into the two-tailed state, one of his clones complains of the pain from the demon chakra. Now why would he feel pain if he had his own demon chakra system that was completely separate from Naruto's? If a KB transforms however, the other KB don't feel it neither does the original Naruto. That's because the clone is only drawing the Kyuubi's power from the original. Whereas if the original Naruto transforms his chakra leaks into the clones.
@Suna no Tate
This might change later in the manga, but Naruto has never shown the ability to grow any tails from a calm state. It's done almost purely from instinct/kyuubi's will
Im afraid im going to have to disagree. Looking throughout the manga, when Naruto uses kage bushin, it creates a complete version of him, identical, with half his chakra. Byakugen could identify it otherwise. When naruto uses the technique, it is implied they all have a mind of their own, however they understand whats happening since they are all naruto and know what he was thinking before the split.
So now taking in account they are exact replicas, simply with reduced chakra, why is it impossible to think the same doesn't happen to the demon fox when naruto replicas himself? It has infinite, if not nearly ifinite chakra, so if it is being replicated (as the is the jutsu's nature), it still has full power or a rediculously high amount, within each individual naruto clone. This would be more than enough to send any into a kyuubi rage, and in this case is theoretically possible
Aparently the jutsu tying the kyuubi to naruto makes it a complete part of his body. Just as Itatchi using kage bushin, each would still have his MS eyes. In naruto's case it is a chakra storage that is replicated X times, which is quite scary.... and very dangerous. No wonder they have yamato around.
I also checked 276, but it is only where Kakshi unleashes his new doujutsu.
Sabaku Kyu
2006-10-27, 13:22
My mistake 0TaKu0, it was chp 277...
Im afraid im going to have to disagree. Looking throughout the manga, when Naruto uses kage bushin, it creates a complete version of him, identical, with half his chakra. Byakugen could identify it otherwise. When naruto uses the technique, i would assume they all have a mind of their own, however they understand whats happening since they are all naruto and know what he was thinking before the split.
So now taking in account they are exact replicas, simply with reduced chakra, why is it impossible to think the same doesn't happen to the demon fox when naruto replicas himself? It has infinite, if not nearly ifinite chakra, so if it is being replicated (as the is the jutsu's nature), it still has full power or a rediculously high amount, within each individual naruto clone. This would be more than enough to send any into a kyuubi rage, and in this case is theoretically possible
Aparently the jutsu tying the kyuubi to naruto makes it a complete part of his body. Just as Itatchi using kage bushin, each would still have his MS eyes. In naruto's case it is a chakra storage that is replicated X times, which is quite scary.... and very dangerous. No wonder they have yamato around.
Byakugan can't see the demon chakra until Naruto summons it. If Naruto were to create clones in a normal state with his chakra, Neji can't distinguish the chakra they consist of from the chakra flowing through Naruto's inner coil system. And then there is still the matter of chapter 277, KB's feel pain when Naruto gains tails but not vice-versa.
Sabaku Kyu
2006-10-27, 13:28
NO. he can't.
Really, then what technique did he use to defeat Mizuki? He was using the Kyuubi's chakra before he even graduated the academy?
My mistake 0TaKu0, it was chp 277...
Byakugan can't see the demon chakra until Naruto summons it. If Naruto were to create clones in a normal state with his chakra, Neji can't distinguish the chakra they consist of from the chakra flowing through Naruto's inner coil system. And then there is still the matter of chapter 277, KB's feel pain when Naruto gains tails but not vice-versa.
Of course he cant. It doesnt mean the kyuubi isnt still there and apart of Naruto's body though. My whole point is saying that Kage Bushin is indeed a complete replica, body/mind of the individual, including specifics, in Naruto's case, the Kyuubi.
All that chapter proves is that Neji was correct in his initial strategy. Finding the real Naruto means a defeat of all the clones. This simply seems to be the nature of the jutsu itself, it's big flaw, but finding the real one is completely random, and if hidden, difficult. Neji thought he found it by watching the attack patterns.
Remember, my explaination is they do have their own kyuubi, as when naruto uses kage bushin, there exists x Narutos in the naruto universe. Thus is the nature of kage bushin.
The kyuubi is a part of his body, and is not seperate, this is why when removed Naruto will die, and when he performs kage bushin, kyuubis are created as well.
Half Demon
2006-10-27, 13:35
Why is the kage bushin considered a dangerous technique? It was (as you know) in the scroll of sealing which the first hokage sealed because it was dangerous. They say that if used in the wrong way it will be dangerous and they didn't want it to spread to other villages. But why is this? It isn't THAT great of a technique, and it desn't really harm the user (it uses up a lot of chakra but so what)!
Anybody know the answer?
yes, its not dangerous technique but not everyone have the same amount of chakra as naruto. You all know that in all the series naruto is the who uses because he have alot of chakra but any one else try to use but he doesnt have enough, he could die too.
EVEN kAKASHI DOESNT USE ALL the time cause it drains your chakra ..
Hehe Sabaku Kyu, even though we will never know because its all in Kisi's hands you still can not just brush off what I have stated with "I still say" =3 cause you dident exactly prove me wrong :3 *wink* & Dauthi see's where I'm comming from.
Sabaku Kyu
2006-10-27, 13:56
Of course he cant. It doesnt mean the kyuubi isnt still there and apart of Naruto's body though. My whole point is saying that Kage Bushin is indeed a complete replica, body/mind of the individual, including specifics, in Naruto's case, the Kyuubi.
All that chapter proves is that Neji was correct in his initial strategy. Finding the real Naruto means a defeat of all the clones. This simply seems to be the nature of the jutsu itself.
Remember, my explaination is they do have their own kyuubi, as when naruto uses kage bushin, there exists x Narutos in the naruto universe. Thus is the nature of kage bushin.
The kyuubi is a part of his body, and is not seperate, this is why when removed Naruto will die, and when he performs kage bushin, kyuubis are created as well.
Okay, but I don't see what point that makes besides the fact that Neji wouldn't be able to distinguish a KB that contained demon chakra from one that does contain demon chakra.
Also, I wouldn't compare the Kyuubi to being a part of Naruto's body like an arm or leg. After all, the kyuubi shows no evidence of feeling pain when Naruto is hurt. I would say that they are linked together, but still separate entities.
Hehe Sabaku Kyu, even though we will never know because its all in Kisi's hands you still can not just brush off what I have stated with "I still say" =3 cause you dident exactly prove me wrong :3 *wink* & Dauthi see's where I'm comming from.
Ok, now I'm confused.. I feel as though I'm overlooking something very obvious...
What your overlooking is
I feel your wrong here, because that is like saying if Naruto when in the Kyubi state did a kage bunshin, All the bunshin's will be normal while the original one staying Kyubi mode. Which is not true, as it states a Kage Bunshin is a perfect replica, creates a exact clone of Naruto.
So why wouldn’t the Fox inside him create its own bunshin for the bunshin evenly distributing its Kyubi chakra to the other Kyubi's inside the bunshin? It makes no sense.
Im afraid im going to have to disagree. Looking throughout the manga, when Naruto uses kage bushin, it creates a complete version of him, identical, with half his chakra.
So now taking in account they are exact replicas, simply with reduced chakra, why is it impossible to think the same doesn't happen to the demon fox when naruto replicas himself?
Aparently the jutsu tying the kyuubi to naruto makes it a complete part of his body. Just as Itatchi using kage bushin, each would still have his MS eyes. In naruto's case it is a chakra storage that is replicated X times, which is quite scary.... and very dangerous. No wonder they have yamato around.
See? Dauthi agree's he said the exact same thing in different words.
Sabaku Kyu
2006-10-27, 14:21
See? Dauthi agree's he said the exact same thing in different words.
....
Dauthi seems to be quite an intelligent guy, but him agreeing doesn't count as new evidence. You two state that Naruto's bunshins each contain their own kyuubi bunshins. Now wouldn't this mean that each clone has his own internal chakra system that operates completely independently from the original's? So why is that when the original starts growing tails, his clone complains of the demon chakra that is causing pain within him? However, when a clone starts growing tails, the original Naruto and the other KB are unaffected. Doesn't that seem to suggest that the original is a source of chakra and can somehow transfer his demonic (or the clones can tap into it)?
But like you said.. we'll probably never know for sure.
Dauthi seems to be quite an intelligent guy, but him agreeing doesn't count as new evidence. You two state that Naruto's bunshins each contain their own kyuubi bunshins. Now wouldn't this mean that each clone has his own internal chakra system that operates completely independently from the original's? So why is that when the original starts growing tails, his clone complains of the demon chakra that is causing pain within him? However, when a clone starts growing tails, the original Naruto and the other KB are unaffected. Doesn't that seem to suggest that the original is a source of chakra and can somehow transfer his demonic (or the clones can tap into it)?
But like you said.. we'll probably never know for sure.
Ok I just look’s at 277 all I see is, "Uhh! so hot.." true it could be pain, but ... it could also be that the bunshin was about to go kyubi? If indeed naruto and the clones are connected by something, then when a clone goes kyubi naruto and the clones should ATLEAST feel something.., feeling nothing contradicts the other.
I'll stop here cause theres no real point to this because we'll never find out :(.
Suna no tate
2006-10-27, 15:28
Hmm... it seems this thread has gotten a little off topic. So is the Kage Bunshin dangerous? Yes. Its one of the kinjutsus banned because it has little benefit but a great cost. The benefit is you have clones that can actually do ninjutsu and genjutsu. The cost is your chakra is split between the clones.
If you ask me, there is just one source of chakra and its naruto/the kyuubi. All the other clones are made from this chakra source. However the explanation of why they feel pain is simple and exists in 2 parts.
The first part is that Naruto and his clones enjoy a sort of telepathy. Bear with me as I explain. There have been instances where Naruto has had to tell his clones what to do, where he physically tells them do this and do that. However there have also been instances where he and his clones operate in tandem without any such communication. An example is the first fight Naruto had with Kakashi during the first bell test. Naruto had a clone sneak up behind Kakashi and grab him, but he never actually talked to that clone. He just formed the clone and it already knew what it had to do. There are a lot more examples in the whole manga that seem to indicate that the clones know whats on each others minds. After all when one clone learns something, they all learn something.
The second part is the simpler of the 2 explanations. The reason why they feel pain is because, guess what, drawing the kyuubis chakra is a painful experience. Naruto is being burned by it when he enters a 1 tailed state (as well as being healed). Not only is it physically painful but those around naruto also experience pain within their bodies. Refer to the 4 tail transformation: Yamato and Sakura made statements about how the chakra was affecting their bodies in a painful manner.
However its unlikely that each clone has its own kyubi inside. There are alot of complexities and plot holes that would occur if that was true. Whats happening with the seal? If each clone had a ninetails, then theoretically it'd be possible for every clone to break he seal. Also, what happens when Naruto destroys the clone. Is he killing that Kyubi? It makes things very complex.
I guess some of you don't get the concept.
Chakra isn't equally divided literally. It's divided in the sense that there's one chakra source and all bodies are just tapping off. The chakra flow seems to be equal in all, so in that sense it's divided, but there really is just one source and all bodies are constantly draining from it. Pretty much the reason Tajuu Kage Bunshin is Kinjutsu is because let's say you let all bunshins do the same move, the chakra required for this this move done 2000 times might just exceed your own capacity hence you will lose all life energy and die. It's like Sasuke creating two clones and perform 3X Chidori.
If chakra was equally divided as in used and lost into the clone forever, things wouldn't be as dangerous as the original would still be left with a certain amount of chakra even though very little (depending on the amount of clones). Also it would be rather lame and unrealistic as you could pretty much "fill" a clone with a shitload of Kyuubi chakra making it more powerful than the original.
Remember Naruto had to deplete all his chakra very fast for Jiraiya to get him to tap into Kyuubi, Naruto simply used KB and did a group fight. If chakra was equally divided, he could've simply killed the other clones and all of his chakra would've been gone (aside from what was still left in the original). But it's more like all clones are constantly draining, so having 1999 clones perform the exact same same thing as the original would drain 2000X the regular amount.
In case of Kyuubi, it works just the same. Kyuubi's a part of Naruto so there's somewhat of a Kyuubi Bunshin in every Naruto clone (do mind, it's still a bunshin, not a real Kyuubi). When a clone loses control and goes Kyuubi, he just taps into the original source and can grow tails independently.
Sorry for possibly repeating someone else....didn't wanna read through the entire thread.
Suna no tate
2006-10-29, 09:37
I guess some of you don't get the concept.
Chakra isn't equally divided literally. It's divided in the sense that there's one chakra source and all bodies are just tapping off. The chakra flow seems to be equal in all, so in that sense it's divided, but there really is just one source and all bodies are constantly draining from it. Sorry for possibly repeating someone else....didn't wanna read through the entire thread.
Hehe.. the definition of division is the equal distribution of something. You said it yourself. One source, that everyone tapping into at an equal rate. Thats just another way of saying each clone is grabbing or is holding relatively an equal amount of chakra. Logically speaking if everyone is grabbing the same amount of chakra at the same rate, assuming there are no other factors, everyone will have rougly the same amount. So i think you're just restating what we said earlier correct?
I guess some of you don't get the concept.
Chakra isn't equally divided literally. It's divided in the sense that there's one chakra source and all bodies are just tapping off. The chakra flow seems to be equal in all, so in that sense it's divided, but there really is just one source and all bodies are constantly draining from it. Pretty much the reason Tajuu Kage Bunshin is Kinjutsu is because let's say you let all bunshins do the same move, the chakra required for this this move done 2000 times might just exceed your own capacity hence you will lose all life energy and die. It's like Sasuke creating two clones and perform 3X Chidori.
If chakra was equally divided as in used and lost into the clone forever, things wouldn't be as dangerous as the original would still be left with a certain amount of chakra even though very little (depending on the amount of clones). Also it would be rather lame and unrealistic as you could pretty much "fill" a clone with a shitload of Kyuubi chakra making it more powerful than the original.
Remember Naruto had to deplete all his chakra very fast for Jiraiya to get him to tap into Kyuubi, Naruto simply used KB and did a group fight. If chakra was equally divided, he could've simply killed the other clones and all of his chakra would've been gone (aside from what was still left in the original). But it's more like all clones are constantly draining, so having 1999 clones perform the exact same same thing as the original would drain 2000X the regular amount.
In case of Kyuubi, it works just the same. Kyuubi's a part of Naruto so there's somewhat of a Kyuubi Bunshin in every Naruto clone (do mind, it's still a bunshin, not a real Kyuubi). When a clone loses control and goes Kyuubi, he just taps into the original source and can grow tails independently.
Sorry for possibly repeating someone else....didn't wanna read through the entire thread.
Very wonderful theory, unfortunately, that’s not how it works, The Chakra use for the Jutsu is sent to the clone in an equally divided basis, They do not feed themselves from the original Source to have more Chakra thats never been mentioned, and contradicts the explanation on Jutsus and Kage Bushin itself. As Even The observation on the ANBU on Sarutobi’s kage Bushin explained as it is.
The reason why its a forbiden Jutsu is because noone has enough Chakra to create 2000 clones and hence by trying to pull it off its drains compleley the Chakra killing the Jutsu performer.
BTW, the group Fight of Kage Bushin in Jiraiya training is an Anime filler.
Very wonderful theory, unfortunately, that’s not how it works, The Chakra use for the Jutsu is sent to the clone in an equally divided basis, They do not feed themselves from the original Source to have more Chakra thats never been mentioned, and contradicts the explanation on Jutsus and Kage Bushin itself. As Even The observation on the ANBU on Sarutobi’s kage Bushin explained as it is.
Haha.
They do not feed themselves from the original Source to have more Chakra
Who ever said such a thing? More chakra?
Point is just, clones keep in contact with the original source, and tap off. They are not given a certain amount which they can use to deplete and then disappear. If that were the case, how the hell can clones grow tails independently if the actual Kyuubi is inside the original? Haha.
Haha.
They do not feed themselves from the original Source to have more Chakra
Who ever said such a thing? More chakra?
By saying they Tap on the original source, is implying they can get more chakra from the source at any time.
Point is just, clones keep in contact with the original source, and tap off. They are not given a certain amount which they can use to deplete and then disappear.
Well, that’s how they work, as explained more than once, they are given a certain amount of Chakra and work based on this amount, reason why Kakashi created Useless Kage Bushin that were not defending on His Chakra source, Reason why It was said Sarutobi depleted his Chakra foolishly by creating Kage Bushin.
If that were the case, how the hell can clones grow tails independently if the actual Kyuubi is inside the original? Haha.
Maybe because they are an exact copy of the User? You know what Exact copy means, do you?
Sabaku Kyu
2006-10-31, 09:35
Well, that’s how they work, as explained more than once, they are given a certain amount of Chakra and work based on this amount, reason why Kakashi created Useless Kage Bushin that were not defending on His Chakra source, Reason why It was said Sarutobi depleted his Chakra foolishly by creating Kage Bushin.
It seems like Naruto would be a special case as far as Kage Bunshin goes. You can't take the general explanation of Kage Bunshin as an exact fact because it doesn't necessarily take into account the case of someone who has a demon contained within them. Personally, I find it hard to believe that an exact copy of the kyuubi with all of his total powers is created within each of Naruto's clones.
And I'll repeat... it's been shown that the original Naruto leaks chakra into his clones whenever he starts to grow tails. When a clone grows tails however, the others do not feel anything. I think this proof that the internal chakra system of Naruto's clones are connected to the original, at least as far as the Kyuubi is concerned.
It seems like Naruto would be a special case as far as Kage Bunshin goes. You can't take the general explanation of Kage Bunshin as an exact fact because it doesn't necessarily take into account the case of someone who has a demon contained within them. Personally, I find it hard to believe that an exact copy of the kyuubi with all of his total powers is created within each of Naruto's clones .
That’s true and could be a way to explain it-but I think this thread is directed at General Kage Bushin-if we get Naruto only then TKB should not be an dangerous Jutsu.
If Kage Bushin does not work by taping on the Source Chakra, we have to try to explain how Naruto do things based on what we know, and not giving new functionality to the Jutsu.
And I'll repeat... it's been shown that the original Naruto leaks chakra into his clones whenever he starts to grow tails. When a clone grows tails however, the others do not feel anything. I think this proof that the internal chakra system of Naruto's clones are connected to the original, at least as far as the Kyuubi is concerned.
Obviously there is a connection, Narutos Clones are Just that, Narutos Chakra, I just don’t think that the clones chakra reserve depends on the Original, Now that I think about it, if it were like that, a A byakugan user could tell who is the original, given the other clones will not be exact duplicates of The Original. (the Chakra flow should be then more intense in the Original)
Maybe because they are an exact copy of the User? You know what Exact copy means, do you?
K then look.
They are an exact copy of the user, and let's assume, Kyuubi is copied right with them. There's a little Kyuubi in every clone. How the hell can they grow tails and waste tons and billions of tons of chakra if the actual Kyuubi with the actual chakra capicity is inside the original? Do you think Kyuubi's chakra splits up also?
K then look.
They are an exact copy of the user, and let's assume, Kyuubi is copied right with them. There's a little Kyuubi in every clone. How the hell can they grow tails and waste tons and billions of tons of chakra if the actual Kyuubi with the actual chakra capicity is inside the original? Do you think Kyuubi's chakra splits up also?
I know exactly what are you gettnig at and quite franlky it could go as you stated, of course, as it did not hit to me what Sabakyu stated "It seems like Naruto would be a special case as far as Kage Bunshin goes."
But the clone duplicating the Kyuby is something that it seems a a possibility, given right now There is really no limits on to what Kage Bushin can Duplicate, as A Clone growing tail is a recent concept, there are a lot of question about how could it work, not to mention we really dont know the limits of Kyuby chakra, if there is a limit to it.
....
Dauthi seems to be quite an intelligent guy, but him agreeing doesn't count as new evidence. You two state that Naruto's bunshins each contain their own kyuubi bunshins. Now wouldn't this mean that each clone has his own internal chakra system that operates completely independently from the original's? So why is that when the original starts growing tails, his clone complains of the demon chakra that is causing pain within him? However, when a clone starts growing tails, the original Naruto and the other KB are unaffected. Doesn't that seem to suggest that the original is a source of chakra and can somehow transfer his demonic (or the clones can tap into it)?
But like you said.. we'll probably never know for sure.
The matter of his clones feeling pain when he does is a matter of the principles of Kage Bushin. All througout the anime, if naruto is hit, his clones tend to dissapear, so you can assume the original naruto's pain/damage transfers to his clones when performing the jutsu. This is just how kage bushin is, kyuubi or no kyuubi.
guess some of you don't get the concept.
Chakra isn't equally divided literally. It's divided in the sense that there's one chakra source and all bodies are just tapping off. The chakra flow seems to be equal in all, so in that sense it's divided, but there really is just one source and all bodies are constantly draining from it. Pretty much the reason Tajuu Kage Bunshin is Kinjutsu is because let's say you let all bunshins do the same move, the chakra required for this this move done 2000 times might just exceed your own capacity hence you will lose all life energy and die. It's like Sasuke creating two clones and perform 3X Chidori.
If your theory were true this jutsu would hardly be wasteful. In your example you could create a single kage bushin, then release it causing almost no chakra loss. However the jutsu isn't stated that way, once created half your chakra is permenently gone. This is why the 3rd wanted to avoid creating them at all, even if for a single short jutsu, his chakra is instantly down to 1/3 regardless of what happens.
K then look.
They are an exact copy of the user, and let's assume, Kyuubi is copied right with them. There's a little Kyuubi in every clone. How the hell can they grow tails and waste tons and billions of tons of chakra if the actual Kyuubi with the actual chakra capicity is inside the original? Do you think Kyuubi's chakra splits up also?
If you have infinite chakra, half of that is still infinite. Yes all these naruto's turning demon and going on a rampage is possible, thus why its dangerous and Yamato is there at all times. It almost seems paradoxical, but it is possible. Even if kyuubi's chakra isn't infinite, it is still an enourmous rediculous amount, and i doubt turning naruto 2 tailed is costly at ALL. After all, 9 tails is tapping into is complete power.
All the kyuubi's have the same amount of chakra once split inside naruto's, which is a godly amount. Which is the original doesn't matter. They all have the same power/abilities.
K then look.
They are an exact copy of the user, and let's assume, Kyuubi is copied right with them. There's a little Kyuubi in every clone. How the hell can they grow tails and waste tons and billions of tons of chakra if the actual Kyuubi with the actual chakra capicity is inside the original? Do you think Kyuubi's chakra splits up also?Unfortunately, that is currently not the case. If I remember correctly, all the cloned cases point to only the original growing the tails, whereas the clones feeling the side affects of that, nothing more.
Also, clones are not an exact copy of the user, as their structures are not the same; the simplest example is the durability of the bodies. So, there is definitely a difference between the original and the clones.
Lastly, even though Kyuubi is a part of Naruto, it is also a separate entity from Naruto. In my opinion, if it is possible to copy Kyuubi with Naruto, that should require a direct interaction between Kyuubi and Naruto when using the bunshin technique, cause the clone needs to also carry a copy of Kyuubi's mind. How much that is possible is another topic of discussion...
Rock Lee X
2006-10-31, 19:17
personaly i am tired of this techinique because it is used in almost any episode..why not let naruto summon the frog once in a while dammit!!
king chopper
2006-11-01, 10:29
even tho the attack isnt that much of a attack....it has had great uses in the past even tho not considered a attack but more of a tactical battle plan which naruto can...sometimes take into a advantage so i guess it can be good if used in a good way
Unfortunately, that is currently not the case. If I remember correctly, all the cloned cases point to only the original growing the tails, whereas the clones feeling the side affects of that, nothing more.
Also, clones are not an exact copy of the user, as their structures are not the same; the simplest example is the durability of the bodies. So, there is definitely a difference between the original and the clones.
Lastly, even though Kyuubi is a part of Naruto, it is also a separate entity from Naruto. In my opinion, if it is possible to copy Kyuubi with Naruto, that should require a direct interaction between Kyuubi and Naruto when using the bunshin technique, cause the clone needs to also carry a copy of Kyuubi's mind. How much that is possible is another topic of discussion...
Of course after an extended time or an amount of damage takes place, the bushins expire. If otherwise, the technique would be widely used, as it would be quite overpowered.
It is hard to say how seperate the kyuubi is from naruto. They seem to be combining slowly, to the point Naruto can no longer control when he uses the power. I would say its entirely possible it is considered as much of apart of his body as Sasuke's sharingan is his body. That is why if it is extracted he dies, and if he dies before then, so does the kyuubi.
For instance when he confronts sasuke, he doesn't seem to be in control as much as it used to be, and sasuke helps him shut the kyuubi off for the moment, or something to that extent.
If that much is true, then him creating bushins of himself with exact copies of the kyuubi within each is entirely possible.
Also, didnt all his clones evoke kyuubi chakra when he fought kimimaro? This doesnt prove either point, but does show he may have been using it with clones since that point as well, just on a lower scale.
Suna no tate
2006-11-01, 13:24
The clones are just bodies made of chakra. No more no less. The kyubi is not copied either. If that were so, just think. The akatsuki would capture naruto, force him to make a bunch of clones, and then use their techniques to extract all the new made kyubi's from the clones. The akatsuki members certainly don't have that in their plans. And you'd think that something major like copying the most dangerous creature in the Naruto universe would be something mentioned at some point, either by Naruto, the kyubi, or even kishi himself.
I think you guys are reaching too much. Just follow the simple definition of kage bunshin. Its a technique to make real bodies out of chakra. However each body made uses chakra at the same rate. Thus it is as if the chakra is evenly split among all the bodies (thats just another way of saying it). The dangers are clear but the advantage seems to be that this kind of clone can use techniques while other clones (wood, mud, sand, etc) can't.
The clones are just bodies made of chakra. No more no less. The kyubi is not copied either. If that were so, just think. The akatsuki would capture naruto, force him to make a bunch of clones, and then use their techniques to extract all the new made kyubi's from the clones. The akatsuki members certainly don't have that in their plans. And you'd think that something major like copying the most dangerous creature in the Naruto universe would be something mentioned at some point, either by Naruto, the kyubi, or even kishi himself.
I think you guys are reaching too much. Just follow the simple definition of kage bunshin. Its a technique to make real bodies out of chakra. However each body made uses chakra at the same rate. Thus it is as if the chakra is evenly split among all the bodies (thats just another way of saying it). The dangers are clear but the advantage seems to be that this kind of clone can use techniques while other clones (wood, mud, sand, etc) can't.
Since the clones expire, your example wouldn't be possible im afraid >.<. The clones while empowered with Kyuubi have massive destructive capabilities, but are not permenent.
When each is invoking its kyuubi power to stick around longer however, it seems they are capable of staying for quite some time, which is why naruto's training is effective. Unfortunately you will also encounter random tailed transformations, as it is too volitile for the Narutos to control.
One thing you guys are missing is if the clone body is chakra, the byakugen could identify them from the original, as it would be a mass of chakra shaped as a body, rather than an actual body. Thus the conclusions given to us from the definition of Kage bushin (they are actual clones of the original) is the literal definition of what they are: clones. They are Naruto in every way shape and form, other than having a limited time on the physical plane, and if the original is damaged, they all become damaged.
Suna no tate
2006-11-01, 13:52
Evenly dispersed what the explanation given. It sees the chakra but since everyone has the same amount it can't tell the original from the fake. All neji's eyes sees is the chakra circulatory system (by the way, sasuke's eyes were fooled too). I don't know know if you watched the anime fillers bought neji was fooled again when Ranmaru created fake chakra circulatory systems and when hinata used her eyes to look at a corpse in the gennou arc, all she saw was a deficient chakra circulatory system. So apparently all their eyes see is the flow of chakra.
A better argument would be to state that woudn't they be able to see chakra flow from the original to the clones, some sort of link or chain from the original naruto to the rest? Because even if all the chakra is evenly divided, they all come from the same source. Well apparently no. My reason is because it'd still be confusing. You see when naruto does kage bunshin no jutsu to make clones, he has clones making clones! (you can look yourself). So either neji can't see the link, or that all the clones have links and it doesn't help anyway.
Evenly dispersed what the explanation given. It sees the chakra but since everyone has the same amount it can't tell the original from the fake.
Which means they are all physical bodies. If Naruto did not evenly distribute his chakra between these bodies, he could identify him.
In your explaination if they are all "chakra bodies" they could all be identified anyways, since they are not actual flesh, but creations from chakra. I believe the byakugen extends this far.
Suna no tate
2006-11-01, 14:06
right they are physical bodies with chakra circulatory systems, but the kyubi isn't a physical body. there are too many implications if the kyubi could be cloned
also think about it like this. The kyubi is a being of infinite chakra correct. Naruto however only has a finite amount (though its quite large). Lets say naruto makes a single clone using only his own blue chakra. Does that clone have its own kyubi? (An impossibility)
right they are physical bodies with chakra circulatory systems, but the kyubi isn't a physical body. there are too many implications if the kyubi could be cloned
also think about it like this. The kyubi is a being of infinite chakra correct. Naruto however only has a finite amount (though its quite large). Lets say naruto makes a single clone using only his own blue chakra. Does that clone have its own kyubi? (An impossibility)
So all that is being argued is if the clones are being forced into existance through use of chakra, or created by use of chakra. Either way they are a complete naruto, down to every memory and feeling, which is what the debate is about.
If a Naruto can be created from nothing, and be identical, then why couldn't the kyuubi? There is no reason it couldn't, and if it is tied to Naruto's body through an advanced seal by the 4th, then the kyuubi is more than likely being created and its chakra split between each individual clone
.
Already answered, and aparently it is possible. While is uknown if the kyuubi has infinite chakra, it has an enormous amount. While divided among thousands, it can still produce a 2 tailed Naruto. If naruto could control himself while in this state, like he did against kimimaro at a lower state of kyuubi-fication, this technique would be monstrous. Unfortunately, currently he would simply destroy everything....
A good example to kick around is when Naruto did a combination henge jutsu with Gama Bunta. The frog lent him chakra, and Naruto used it to turn the frog into something different (the kyuubi). If this supernatural creature can be modified by Naruto when given consent, why cant the Kyuubi.
Chucks Dauthi, you could at least leave something for others to reply to? :p
I agree wiht what you said about How the Chakra needs to be evenly distribuited amongst the clone and one of the reason Byakugan could not tel the differece between one or the other, heck, if it were not because of the Evenly distribution of Chakra even Sharingan could tell who is the Original.
Also on the note About extracting the clones of Naruto, your explanation was on the mark.
At the end if Kage Bushin can Create Clones that can be used to Extract soul using the Death God Jutsu and even Sealing them Inside the clones, then Copying Narutos seal System should be pausible.
Suna no tate
2006-11-01, 14:45
Well for one thing, right now Naruto maxes out at 200 clones for the technique he's using in chp 329. And he's using only the kyubi chakra. Thats why he needs Yamato around.
Here's the answer to my thought question. I said lets say naruto makes a single clone and is choosing to use only his own chakra, how can he make a kyubi that has infinite chakra? Thats impossible. The kyubi was said to have infinite chakra but even if you think it has only a large amount, its certainly much much much more than naruto (by several magnitudes of 10). It should be impossible for Naruto to recreate one kyubi with his own chakra, talk less the thousands. Since he cannot do it with one, he cannot do it with thousands, and thus he is not doing it at all.
Henge on a frog is just henge. I'm trying very hard to see how thats relevant here. At best it uses just a limited amount of chakra and probably not a lot. And still I don't see the relevance at all...
IMHO Kage Bunshin is not a dangerous technique but a speciality technique which is dangerous in hands of wrong people . Unlike Bunshin which are etheral and just an illusion Kage Bunshin are clones .
If Kage bunshin falls into wrong hands it would be bad in terms of spying . One could argue Henge no Jutsu can also be used for spying but that Jutsu has no possiblities for number of clones and also requires users to be present unlike Kage Bunshin
Edit : This is in reffrence with Kage Bunshin not Taju Kage Bunshin . And Taju just eats away your chakra other than I dont find that technique life threatning to user
Suna no tate
2006-11-01, 15:02
If Kage bunshin falls into wrong hands it would be bad in terms of spying . One could argue Henge no Jutsu can also be used for spying but that Jutsu has no possiblities for number of clones and also requires users to be present unlike Kage Bunshin
Any type of clone can be used for spying. Yamato used a wood clone specifically for spying. And kakashi said something about the use of clones in general for spying (in his explanation that clones teach you stuff). So that can't be the reason why Kage bunshin is banned but other clones are ok. Kinjutsus are forbidden techniques banned because they present too great a danger to the user or cost too much (like a life for special summoning jutus) and that was the word used to describe the scroll where naruto got his technique.
Here's the answer to my thought question. I said lets say naruto makes a single clone and is choosing to use only his own chakra, how can he make a kyubi that has infinite chakra? That’s impossible. The kyubi was said to have infinite chakra but even if you think it has only a large amount, its certainly much much more than naruto (by several magnitudes of 10). It should be impossible for Naruto to recreate one kyubi with his own chakra, talk less the thousands. Since he cannot do it with one, he cannot do it with thousands, and thus he is not doing it at all..
LOL, The Bushing does not recreates Chakra, it recreates the physical object desired, the Chakra Kyuby gives to Naruto is something that Is part of the seal and Kyuby, and not that Somewhere in Naruto Body there is a Parallel Universe that is made of Chakra.
In this case when Naruto does a Kage Bushin, the Kage Bushin will not only have Narutos Toughs, Looks and Chakra system, but it would have any other physical attributes, in this case The seal system which is what Keeps Kyuby inside Naruto and helps as the catalyzer of the Kyuby Chakra, chakra that its created from the embodiment of Kyuby, meaning that its really does not matter Kyuby chakra limitations, what its matter is Duplicating the source of this Chakra.
Trying to Duplicate Kyuby with a Kage Bunshi, is not a question of an amount of Chakra available to Duplicate Kyuby, rather is just a question of Duplicating, there is no limit to what it can be copied when talking about the amount of Chakra the Jutsu caster has, in fact, Kyuby is part of Naruto, and Hence when he duplicate his body, Kyuby, that is part of Naruto body is Duplicate, remember, And exact copy of the user, no restraint about what part of the body cant be copied was mentioned
Suna no tate
2006-11-01, 15:42
Umm... clearly the source is not duplicated, neither naruto nor the kyubi. There is one source, with all the clones feeding off it. The kyubi isn't part of naruto's chakra circulatory system. The kyubi isn't a physical beaing. so you still have the infinity complex issue to deal with.
Umm... clearly the source is not duplicated, neither naruto nor the kyubi. There is one source, with all the clones feeding off it. The kyubi isn't part of naruto's chakra circulatory system. The kyubi isn't a physical beaing. so you still have the infinity complex issue to deal with.
No it isn’t, Kyuby is a being sealed inside Naruto, His presence inside Naruto makes him part of Naruto, Kyuby as shown is not an infinite been, what it is alleged to be infinity is the Chakra he produce. As Long as Naruto has the Seal, the clones can copy this and thus Copy whatever the seal does.
And please, There are more than one statement that said that Kage Bnushin are an exact Duplicate of the person, saying otherwise is because you don’t like what the Manga say and thus go on to invent things on your own, and this is not the first time you do this.
Once again if the clones would had been feeding Chaka of the Source, the Byakugan user could had tell who is The Kage Bushin and who is the original.i Gues you have decided to overlook this fact for your own convinience
BTW, this is the last Time I will Mark with spoiler your quotes, I think you should start to be a little more considerate to other poster who does not read the Manga.
Sabaku Kyu
2006-11-01, 16:03
One thing you guys are missing is if the clone body is chakra, the byakugen could identify them from the original, as it would be a mass of chakra shaped as a body, rather than an actual body. Thus the conclusions given to us from the definition of Kage bushin (they are actual clones of the original) is the literal definition of what they are: clones. They are Naruto in every way shape and form, other than having a limited time on the physical plane, and if the original is damaged, they all become damaged.
The thing is, Byakugan has never been used on Naruto in a state where he's created clones and at the same time is summoning the demon chakra. The clones that Neji fought in the chuunin exam were made while Naruto had a normal chakra flow in his body. The normal rules of KB apply in this state. Naruto's chakra is evenly divided and the clones don't 'feed' off of the original in anyway. Thus, Neji didn't see anything irregular and could not tell them apart because the demon chakra can't be seen with Byakugan until it is summoned by Naruto. But by the time Naruto summoned the Kyuubi chakra all the clones had dispersed. So the question goes:
If Naruto had performed the Kage bunshin technique after summoning the demon chakra, what would Neji have seen? Would he have seen equally divided demon chakra in Naruto and all his clones or would he have seen a much more intense flow of chakra in the original?
It could go either way really. But the Byakugan argument is not really proof of anything.
The thing is, Byakugan has never been used on Naruto in a state where he's created clones and at the same time is summoning the demon chakra. The clones that Neji fought in the chuunin exam were made while Naruto had a normal chakra flow in his body. Thus, Neji didn't see anything irregular and could not tell them apart because the demon chakra can't be seen with Byakugan until it is summoned by Naruto. But by the time Naruto summoned the Kyuubi chakra all the clones had dispersed. So the question goes:
If Naruto had performed the Kage bunshin technique after summoning the demon chakra, what would Neji have seen? Would he have seen equally divided demon chakra in Naruto and all his clones or would he have seen a much more intense flow of chakra in the original?
It could go either way really. But the Byakugan argument is not absolute proof.
He would had seen the same chakra flow as the original, is the defintion of Kage Bushin we got, period.
The thing is, Byakugan has never been used on Naruto in a state where he's created clones and at the same time is summoning the demon chakra. The clones that Neji fought in the chuunin exam were made while Naruto had a normal chakra flow in his body. The normal rules of KB apply in this state. Naruto's chakra is evenly divided and the clones don't 'feed' off of the original in anyway. Thus, Neji didn't see anything irregular and could not tell them apart because the demon chakra can't be seen with Byakugan until it is summoned by Naruto. But by the time Naruto summoned the Kyuubi chakra all the clones had dispersed. So the question goes:
If Naruto had performed the Kage bunshin technique after summoning the demon chakra, what would Neji have seen? Would he have seen equally divided demon chakra in Naruto and all his clones or would he have seen a much more intense flow of chakra in the original?
It could go either way really. But the Byakugan argument is not really proof of anything.
The way i see it, he isn't using chakra, as he is dividing it and it creates itself ito an exact copy. So you cant say he could use demon chakra when creating the bushins, since nothing is used, but divided, and the amount is always set depending on how many clones are created. He could however go kyuubi state and divide probably, creating a lot of kyuubi clones in the same state as he.
When the bushins are made, they may invoke the demon fox within them all if they choose, as we see in the fight vs. Kimimaro. Doing this probably increases their lifespan and durability since their chakra has just increased by god knows how much. That explains why this training is something only Naruto could do, and why it is so dangerous at the same time. Sure his 200 clones can go on for an extremely long time, but Yamato has to be there to make sure he stops any that go berserk from constantly invoking the demon within each. This is why Yamato is gettin so exaughsted, they are probably going berserk frequently, since there is 200.
I think what you are getting at is that when he creates bushins, the original can give each some kyuubi chakra, and thats how they become kyuubi-fied. However i dont think the rules for the jutsu change because of the fox. Its safe to say the rules stay the same, and there is a kyuubi within each. It may seem paradoxical, but when you are analyzing an ability that literally creates a new life temporarily in the form of a clone...
Dauthi use spoiler tags
And I was playing around with this thread, but what the heck, let see a couple of things been overlooked by some:
The part of Kage Bushin feeding from the source, ok, is not only what Dauthi and I stated about telling those clone that does not have the same Chakra as the Original, is the fact that if they fed from the Original the Chakra travels from Point A to Point B, Both Sharingan and Byakugan can see this Chakra been exposed in the Air to Travel to its intended destination, The same will apply to Kyubyfied Naruto, They feed from The Source but this high Concentration of Chakra would bee on the airwaves and be perceptive by those with the eyes. This is like this, Unless of course, those who still believe that the source is the one feeding the Chakra of the other clones now invent that the Kage bushin use a worm Hole to teleport the Chakra to the Clone in order for those with Special eyes dont notice the Chakra.
If a Kage bushin would had been feeding of the Source than the Resilient of the Bushin could change drastically, in the case of Naruto, the clone would never bee destroyed, given they will always been feeding themselves of chakra to maintain themselves and take a bigger amount of Damage.
And The Tailed Bushin Issue, is not only that the part of the exact duplicate, if the clones fed from the source to get to 3 tails then that means the source must be also in tails mode, and not in a normal state as Naruto Was,
The theory of the clones Getting tails because they were feeding from the source implicates that Naruto was passing low levels of Kyuby Chakra to the clones the clones was housing the chakra collected and to a point it begin to grey tails, that sound highly unlikely, opposite to just explaining it as Kage Bushin works, which Kage Busin Kyuby is not against any Natural Law
Sabaku Kyu
2006-11-01, 16:56
The way i see it, he isn't using chakra, as he is dividing it and it creates itself ito an exact copy. So you cant say he could use demon chakra when creating the bushins, since nothing is used, but divided, and the amount is always set depending on how many clones are created. He could however go kyuubi state and divide probably, creating a lot of kyuubi clones in the same state as he.
When the bushins are made, they may invoke the demon fox within them all if they choose, as we see in the fight vs. Kimimaro. Doing this probably increases their lifespan and durability since their chakra has just increased by god knows how much. That explains why this training is something only Naruto could do, and why it is so dangerous at the same time. Sure his 200 clones can go on for an extremely long time, but Yamato has to be there to make sure he stops any that go berserk from constantly invoking the demon within each. This is why Yamato is gettin so exaughsted, they are probably going berserk frequently, since there is 200.
I think what you are getting at is that when he creates bushins, the original can give each some kyuubi chakra, and thats how they become kyuubi-fied. However i dont think the rules for the jutsu change because of the fox. Its safe to say the rules stay the same, and there is a kyuubi within each. It may seem paradoxical, but when you are analyzing an ability that literally creates a new life temporarily in the form of a clone...
Yeah, more or less you understood what I was trying to say and I see you and Rurik's points as well. I can't really take my argument further right now since nothing new about the nature of Naruto's Kage Bunshin has been officially stated. So like Rurik(bluntly) said, you have to take the de facto definition of Kage Bunshin as truth: an exact copy of the user in every way. Still, it'll be interesting to see if it is explained further in the manga.
Dauthi use spoiler tags
And I was playing around with this thread, but what the heck, let see a couple of things been overlooked by some:
The part of Kage Bushin feeding from the source, ok, is not only what Dauthi and I stated about telling those clone that does not have the same Chakra as the Original, is the fact that if they fed from the Original the Chakra travels from Point A to Point B, Both Sharingan and Byakugan can see this Chakra been exposed in the Air to Travel to its intended destination, The same will apply to Kyubyfied Naruto, They feed from The Source but this high Concentration of Chakra would bee on the airwaves and be perceptive by those with the eyes. This is like this, Unless of course, those who still believe that the source is the one feeding the Chakra of the other clones now invent that the Kage bushin use a worm Hole to teleport the Chakra to the Clone in order for those with Special eyes dont notice the Chakra.
If a Kage bushin would had been feeding of the Source than the Resilient of the Bushin could change drastically, in the case of Naruto, the clone would never bee destroyed, given they will always been feeding themselves of chakra to maintain themselves and take a bigger amount of Damage.
And The Tailed Bushin Issue, is not only that the part of the exact duplicate, if the clones fed from the source to get to 3 tails then that means the source must be also in tails mode, and not in a normal state as Naruto Was,
The theory of the clones Getting tails because they were feeding from the source implicates that Naruto was passing low levels of Kyuby Chakra to the clones the clones was housing the chakra collected and to a point it begin to grey tails, that sound highly unlikely, opposite to just explaining it as Kage Bushin works, which Kage Busin Kyuby is not against any Natural Law
Yeah, i dont think they believe so much as it is being physically passed between each, but that the kage bushin technique's properties are allowing an invisible chakra link between them if the Kyuubi is invoked. Of course if this were possible one could pass chakra between clones normally too, because the kyuubi doesnt change or alter the properties of Kage bushin.
Well i guess it can change the technique technically, since Naruto is giving them an unusually long lifespan because of the kyuubi during training. The rules still apply however.
Suna no tate
2006-11-01, 17:37
What? Subaku Kyu, rurik, and dauthi have lost me. Let me restate my position with the simple thought experiment.
Lets say Naruto chooses to make one clone and he is forcefully using only his chakra, does that one clone he makes have a copy of the kyubi? I say no because the kyubi has much more chakra than Naruto. If Naruto is forcefully using only his chakra, he can only make as many clones as his chakra can support. However the kyubi has infinite chakra. So how can he copy it in this instance? Since this bunshin made only of naruto's chakra doesn't have a kyubi copy its unlikely any of them made by any source of chakra have a copy.
The kage bunshin jutsu makes an exact physical copy of the user. The kyubi isn't a physical part of naruto. You can't extract it by cutting it out with a blade. Its like a lesser soul. Thus it is not replicated when he makes a copy.
Whether or not the byukugan can see a link is immaterial. Already I stated that probably they can't see it or even if they could it'd be to difficult to tell the original anyway. This is simply because whenever Naruto makes multiple copies, he has clones making clones. Too many links and it'd be hard to follow and trace them all back.
But what about the implications? If akatsuki believed in your definition of kage bunshin, then they'd kidnap naruto, use genjutsu on him to make him use his copying ability, and then use their sealing techniques to rip out hundreds of kyubis, one from each clone. If that is truly the definition of kage bunshin thats known by everyone, that the user and his sealed beast is fully replicated, then why does Akatsuki bother to capture the tailed beasts? The could simply force Gaara or the holder of the nekomata to use this kage bunshin, and then rip out as many beasts they want? And if each copy is exactly the same as the user, why is the original naruto apparently so much stronger and can take much more punishment than any single clone?
The spoiler link out of respect...hehe!
Lets say Naruto chooses to make one clone and he is forcefully using only his chakra, does that one clone he makes have a copy of the kyubi? I say no because the kyubi has much more chakra than Naruto. If Naruto is forcefully using only his chakra, he can only make as many clones as his chakra can support. However the kyubi has infinite chakra. So how can he copy it in this instance? Since this bunshin made only of naruto's chakra doesn't have a kyubi copy its unlikely any of them made by any source of chakra have a copy.
It seems you are really lost,
It does not matter what amount of Chakra the Physical being can produce, what matter is the being itself. Been this said, Chakra is created from the body of the being, So what Naruto duplicate is the body/spirit that creates the Chakra and not the Infinite Chakra this body produce.
The kage bunshin jutsu makes an exact physical copy of the user. The kyubi isn't a physical part of naruto. You can't extract it by cutting it out with a blade. Its like a lesser soul. Thus it is not replicated when he makes a copy.
And Once again Kyuby is a Part of Naruto, just as Sharingan is a part of Sasuke, The spirit of Kyuby it sealed wihtym Naruto, the seal acts as the attachment of Kyuby and Naruto, when Naruto duplicates himself he duplicaftes this seal and thus duplicates everyhing about this seal, including of course how Kyuby works with Naruto. If Kyuby would had not been a part of Naruto as you say, Sasuke would had not encounter himself with Kyuby when He entered Narutos mind and When Naruto gets Kyubified he would had not changed His eyes Teeth and Nails
And if Kage Bushin would had only duplicated the Physical part of Naruto, Each Kage Bushin would had a Different personality and Toughs than Naruto.
Whether or not the byukugan can see a link is immaterial. Already I stated that probably they still can't see it or even if they could it'd be to difficult to tell the original anyway.
And it was stated they Can see the Chakra, You are talking about Chakra which is perceptive by Byuakuga and Sharingan, saying the Byakugan or Sharingan can’t see Chakra on special cases, is pusshing it too far
This is simply because whenever Naruto makes multiple copies, he has clones making clones. Too many links and it'd be hard to follow and trace them all back.
This explanation contradict your theory, if the Clones are all feeding from the same source, then all the clones are receiving the Chakra the use from the same source, thus they only have one link. And even like you say, when Naruto performs the Taju Kage Bushin he do it by Himself, the use of other Kage Bushin to create new Kage Bushin was only made by him once or twice with small amount of Kage Bushin.
But what about the implications? If akatsuki believed in your definition of kage bunshin, then they'd kidnap naruto, use genjutsu on him to make him use his copying ability, and then use their sealing techniques to rip out hundreds of kyubis, one from each clone .
Read Dauthi explanation again why a Kage Bushin to extract Kyuby is useless, Kage Bushin Are not the real thing and thus the Kage Busin will not Survive a 3 days sealing process and even if the Kage Bushin can survive (which is impossible), the same will happen to the Kyuby Kage Bushin, it will go pufff.
What? Subaku Kyu, rurik, and dauthi have lost me. Let me restate my position with the simple thought experiment.
Lets say Naruto chooses to make one clone and he is forcefully using only his chakra, does that one clone he makes have a copy of the kyubi? I say no because the kyubi has much more chakra than Naruto. If Naruto is forcefully using only his chakra, he can only make as many clones as his chakra can support. However the kyubi has infinite chakra. So how can he copy it in this instance? Since this bunshin made only of naruto's chakra doesn't have a kyubi copy its unlikely any of them made by any source of chakra have a copy.
Forgot to answer this part before. It isn't about naruto creating the kyuubi, but himself, and the kyuubi being apart of him. So if the kyuubi has infinite chakra, he creates clones that may have infinite chakra, if their kyuubi's are also invoked.
The kage bunshin jutsu makes an exact physical copy of the user. The kyubi isn't a physical part of naruto. You can't extract it by cutting it out with a blade. Its like a lesser soul. Thus it is not replicated when he makes a copy.
The seal that binds naruto to the kyuubi is very strong, and Naruto will die if the kyuubi is extracted. I think this shows the symbiotic relationship between them, Naruto and the Kyuubi are one, thus the clones cannot exist unless this is true. Sure the kyuubi isn't tangible, but naruto's chakra system isnt either (you cant cut or remove it with a blade), and that is created.
[spoiler]
But what about the implications? If akatsuki believed in your definition of kage bunshin, then they'd kidnap naruto, use genjutsu on him to make him use his copying ability, and then use their sealing techniques to rip out hundreds of kyubis, one from each clone. If that is truly the definition of kage bunshin thats known by everyone, that the user and his sealed beast is fully replicated, then why does Akatsuki bother to capture the tailed beasts? The could simply force Gaara or the holder of the nekomata to use this kage bunshin, and then rip out as many beasts they want? And if each copy is exactly the same as the user, why is the original naruto apparently so much stronger and can take much more punishment than any single clone?
The spoiler link out of respect...hehe!
Well lets look at that. It takes about 8 hours to extract it. The ninja probably needs to be unconscious or else it will break loose and interrup the process. The only way to keep the bushins around for 8 hours id assume is invoking the kyuubi in that clone. This would be quite difficult for the akatsuki to bind or control, as they all need to be concentrating or contributing to the ritual.
In any case, the kyuubi they would extract would probably expire, because when it is removed the clone naruto would poof out (because the extraction would kill it for sure), which would result in the corresponding kyuubi part of it to do the same. If not (which is logically unsound), it's not proven the kyuubi has infinite chakra, but a whole lot, in which case it would eventually dissapear, it would just take a long while.
Well lets look at that. It takes about 8 hours to extract it. The ninja probably needs to be unconscious or else it will break loose and interrup the process. The only way to keep the bushins around for 8 hours id assume is invoking the kyuubi in that clone. This would be quite difficult for the akatsuki to bind or control, as they all need to be concentrating or contributing to the ritual.
, correction, it takes 3 days
, correction, it takes 3 days
Well i guess it makes it that much more rediculous to try =p I couldn't imagine trying to hold a kyuubified naruto while doing their ritual for 3 days.
Rein Masamuri
2006-11-01, 22:03
It is very dangerous if it falls into the hands of an enemy village. Without going into Manga spoilers though I can't exactly say why.
And no, I'm not joking.
If you want to know why, PM me.
Gah! somebody said it:
The other thing that’s dangerous about the Kage bunshin is, remember the training naruto is doing right now? Once you cancel the jutsu everything the clones learned if they were near you or 2 miles away, all comes rushing back in to the jutsu user's head. Can you imagine if you were using a 1000 clones and a shit load of information bum rushed your brain at once trying to get in there and squeeze in tight, how much mental stress you would suffer?
He uses this technique to learn a VERY powerful Jutsu (2nd part of a larger jutsu) later in the series. Each shadow clone trains and when they go poof he learns what they did while training.
Can you imagine this learning power in the hands of an enemy? It would be crazy!
s-class uchiha
2006-11-01, 22:15
It is extremely puzzling to me how Naruto can Kage bunshin and account for the kyuubi within himself.
i guess, the kyuubi's assimilation into Naruto is very deep and non-material/spiritual. Perhaps naruto's body is just a gateway for the sealed kyuubi to come through. So that when he does Kage bunshin, the kyuubi has many "doors" to come through.
Perhaps, just the jutsu in itself can create an actual copy 100% spritually and mentally, afterall it isn't inconceivable that Kyuubi himself could do kage bunshin. Prb inside the cloned Naruto is the cloned version of kyuubi" After all the "mystical properties" of the naruto world have it so that every single cell is reproduced (thus having a perfect sharingan in the clone even w/o knowing how it all works out).
, correction, it takes 3 days
Correction, it takes 3 days for Shukaku. Let's just assume, using the more tails more power logic, it would take at least a month to extract Kyuubi.
shikamaru_kun
2006-11-03, 05:51
What about when Sandaime used Kage Bunshin with the Death God technique to seal the reincarnated Hokages? Now that was bad ass. And that is highly dangerous.
Sabaku Kyu
2006-11-03, 08:50
It is very dangerous if it falls into the hands of an enemy village. Without going into Manga spoilers though I can't exactly say why.
And no, I'm not joking.
If you want to know why, PM me.
He uses this technique to learn a VERY powerful Jutsu (2nd part of a larger jutsu) later in the series. Each shadow clone trains and when they go poof he learns what they did while training.
Can you imagine this learning power in the hands of an enemy? It would be crazy!
Actually, it's likely that most enemy villages do know the Kage Bunshin technique. The first rock-nin encountered in the Kakashi gaiden was using KB to scout the area and he was only an average jounin. He made about 5 or 6 clones that were easily dealt with by Kakashi and Yondaime. I think that Kage Bunshin is only 'forbidden' in the sense that it is mainly a jounin level technique and not meant to be used by less experienced ninja. Under normal circumstances, the technique is useful for spying, scouting and learning techniques but even this is limited due to the small number of clones most ninja can make.
Some variations of Kage Bunshin do make the technique far more dangerous than normal, like Naruto's Tajuu Kage Bunshin. Also, Itachi's expoding Kage Bunshin. If Naruto could make his bunshin explode, he could wipe a small country off the map. But I'm guessing that this type of bunshin requires far more chakra than a normal KB and is much more difficult to create. Also, it can easily be identified by Sharingan or Byakugan since Kakashi immediately recognized the one Itachi created. Variations like these may also be why the technique is considered forbidden
Correction, it takes 3 days for Shukaku. Let's just assume, using the more tails more power logic, it would take at least a month to extract Kyuubi.
LOL read latest manga Chapter, It rihgt now a Fact that the extraction takes some 3 days for any Bijuu, as Now Akatsuki will take some 6 days to take Both The Nibi and the Sanbi. anything else is your assumption
LOL read latest manga Chapter, It rihgt now a Fact that the extraction takes some 3 days for any Bijuu, as Now Akatsuki will take some 6 days to take Both The Nibi and the Sanbi. anything else is your assumption
Nothing is exactly a fact until it's proven a fact.
According to the fact that an equal amount of energy is needed to extract a Bijuu from its seal according to manga, there's no reason to believe extracting Kyuubi will take just as long as extracting Shukaku. The fact that perhaps the first three Bijuu have the same amount of energy doesn't mean they all have.
Plus don't forget that sealing Sanbi isn't the same as extracting Sanbi. Extraction takes 3 days (or more) so far as we know, as it's entirely different from sealing and all members have to go and "sacrifice" chakra till all is extracted. In case of Sanbi, it's a wild demon, it can be sealed in hours, likely minutes. It does not have to be extracted from something, therefore it won't take the same amount of time.
Edit: Well I just went ahead and looked it up, and turns out, Rurik has a problem reading or understanding the manga, or perhaps remembering it well (I guess in the end he'll come saying it's the fault of the translator). According to AL: "as soon as the sanbi is done, we'll seal the Niibi too. This will take at least six days, be prepared".
And there you have it. Sealing Sanbi takes nothing, while extracting Niibi takes six days at least. Therefore, Kyuubi might just take 26 days, or if exponential (power difference between Bijuu), over a year.
Nothing is exactly a fact until it's proven a fact.
According to the fact that an equal amount of energy is needed to extract a Bijuu from its seal according to manga, there's no reason to believe extracting Kyuubi will take just as long as extracting Shukaku. The fact that perhaps the first three Bijuu have the same amount of energy doesn't mean they all have.
No, its all the way around, a fact is a fact until proven otherwise, the only fact we know is that taking A Bijou to Seal it take 3 days or a little bit more depending on the Chakra of the persons Sealing it, that’s a fact, anything else is assumption. and it was not stated that an equal Amount of Chakra is need to extract the Bijouu, as You are now inventing that the 3 first Bijuu needs to have the same amount of Energy to try and cover fro your Clear mistake.
Plus don't forget that sealing Sanbi isn't the same as extracting Sanbi. Extraction takes 3 days (or more) so far as we know, as it's entirely different from sealing and all members have to go and "sacrifice" chakra. In case of Sanbi, it's a wild demon, it can be sealed in minutes. It does not have to be extracted from something, therefore all members don't have to gather up and feed chakra
Given you don’t know every details on how the extraction works, you can’t say it would takes minutes for the Sanbi just because he is not sealed, for all we know it could take more time and it could take les time as you said, but I doubt its just minutes.
And you are Impliying that the Members don't need to Sacrifice Chakra to seal SAnbi? I doubt you did, but your use of words here were not adecuated.
And then, you dont know if they need to extract the Sanbi spirit from its physycal body. what you are doing is passing your asumptions as facts overlooking the facts from the Manga. Also I Dont recall it was stated the The Process that takes 3 days is just the extraction. The process tha takes 3 days is the entire Extraction and sealing process
Edit: Well I just went ahead and looked it up, and turns out, Rurik has a problem reading or understanding the manga, or perhaps remembering it well (I guess in the end he'll come saying it's the fault of the translator). According to AL: "as soon as the sanbi is done, we'll seal the Niibi too. This will take at least six days, be prepared".
And there you have it. Sealing Sanbi takes nothing, while extracting Niibi takes six days at least. Therefore, Kyuubi might just take 26 days, or if exponential (power difference between Bijuu), over a year.
You sure are the one that has the reading problem, The Sentence goes like that : "as soon as the sanbi is done, we'll seal the Niibi too. This will take at least six days, be prepared".
There are 2 sentence here, were the one about the 6 days is not excluding the Sanbi, as of now, it’s including both the Sanbi and the Niibi.
When he say this will take 6 days, are all the action of the Prior Sentence belong to this 6 days, and not just part of the previous sentence you like the most. Your obsevration about the sentecen would had been correct if the Niibi fraction would had been part of the 6 days sentence or would had been a different sentence from the Sanbi fraction.
Also, given your Theory you just said, Sanbi should not last minutes
Lst2touchdasky
2006-11-03, 11:58
The definate and only reason is kage bushin makes the user and his clones horny~ after forming his/her clones theres a direct and instantaneous feel to gang bang as seen in many of today naruto doujins.
Sabaku Kyu
2006-11-03, 12:19
The definate and only reason is kage bushin makes the user and his clones horny~ after forming his/her clones theres a direct and instantaneous feel to gang bang as seen in many of today naruto doujins.
Nah. If that were true, we'd see Jiraiya use Kage Bunshin all the time.
Lst2touchdasky
2006-11-03, 12:28
Nah. If that were true, we'd see Jiraiya use Kage Bunshin all the time.
Fact is, jiraiya is pervert... as much as he wants to get laid, it doesn't mean that girls will flock him voluntarily. And also they dont show what he does when hes inside the red light district. All we know is that he went through naruto's life savings really quick, theres a chance that he could have had paid for multiple girls at once and pleasure them 1 on 1 or he paid for a few girls at 3:1 ratio and had to pay for each kage buushin
No, its all the way around, a fact is a fact until proven otherwise
Haha. You're a really silly individual Rurik.
Naruto is from planet Namek!!!! Prove me otherwise!
the only fact we know is that taking A Bijou to Seal it take 3 days or a little bit more depending on the Chakra of the persons Sealing it, that’s a fact, anything else is assumption
It does not fare well with Chiyo's comment about extracting Bijuu.
and it was not stated that an equal Amount of Chakra is need to extract the Bijouu
WOAHH!!! (http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaReturns/vol29.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=14464)
To make up for your incapability of reading, I shall provide thee, teh exact quote:
(here goes)
If, for even an instant, a sealing jutsu which releases the exact amount of power to match up with the Bijuu's is used...
That takes a considerable amount of time.
as You are now inventing that the 3 first Bijuu needs to have the same amount of Energy to try and cover fro your Clear mistake.
Haha. That was a simple possibility that popped up like suddenly so I thought I'd mention.
There's no clear mistake whatsoever, because unlike you keep hammering upon, a fact is not a damn fact until proven otherwise (that's one of the silliest things I've ever heared). It is speculation, or baseless assumption in your case. So far you have heared about sealing the first three Bijuu. So far as the other 6 go, you have no clue whatsoever. I repeat: no clue. What, so, ever. Got it?
According to Chiyo, an equal amount of power is needed in an instant. I might understand how Shukaku's power can be sacrificed in an instant, Niibi as well, and likely Sanbi as all three don't have that huge a chakra capicity. (either is is in an instant, or it is constant chakra submitting which seems more likely given the stuff what we know, and have seen.. otherwise extracting Kyuubi in an instant would be out of the question anyway.. they certainly don't have a power equalling Kyuubi's huge ass capicity)
Akatsuki noticed how things might've went a little slower without Oro helping a hand. That means one chakra capacity less, and a rather huge one. That means, apparently Akatsuki has to keep submitting chakra in order to keep draining the Bijuu out. Now we don't have any facts that you like so much about the first three Bijuu's power, or the difference between them (shouldn't be that big I suppose). But for certain we cannot compare Shukaku to Kyuubi. Given the facts I provided just now, the best assumption we can make is that extracting Kyuubi will take a considerable longer amount of time, as constant draining is required, and Kyuubi's chakra pool is incomparable to that of any other Bijuu (or to be more correct before you start fucking ants, the first three Bijuu).
Haha. You're a really silly individual Rurik.
Naruto is from planet Namek!!!! Prove me otherwise!
It seems you have hard time understanding what Facts mean, Fact is what has been stated or either in the Manga or Databook, Your quote is an assumption not stated in the Manga. So I don’t have to prove you otherwise, given the Manga or Databook have not talked about Naruto’s origins.
It does not fare well with Chiyo's comment about extracting Bijuu.
WOAHH!!! (http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaReturns/vol29.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=14464)
To make up for your incapability of reading, I shall provide thee, the exact quote:
(here goes)
If, for even an instant, a sealing jutsu which releases the exact amount of power to match up with the Bijuu's is used...
That takes a considerable amount of time.
I think this is the second time I have to correct you on your reading problems I said:
“and it was not stated that an equal Amount of Chakra is need to extract the Bijouu”
The quote you used read like this:
If, for even an instant, a sealing jutsuwhich releases the exact amount of powerto match up with the Bijuu's is used...
IN other words, the one with the power is the Jutsu itself, this however does not talk about chakra, which is what makes the Sealing take more time (supposedly). It talks about the Jutsu matching the power of the Bijuu in order to seal it, it talk about the power of the Jutsu, it does not talk about the Giving the same Chakra as the Bijuu to seal it.
Haha. That was a simple possibility that popped up like suddenly so I thought I'd mention.
There's no clear mistake whatsoever, because unlike you keep hammering upon, a fact is not a damn fact until proven otherwise (that's one of the silliest things I've ever heared). It is speculation, or baseless assumption in your case. So far you have heared about sealing the first three Bijuu. So far as the other 6 go, you have no clue whatsoever. I repeat: no clue. What, so, ever. Got it?
According to Chiyo, an equal amount of power is needed in an instant. I might understand how Shukaku's power can be sacrificed in an instant, Niibi as well, and likely Sanbi as all three don't have that huge a chakra capicity.(either is is in an instant, or it is constant chakra submitting which seems more likely given the stuff what we know, and have seen..
How convenient, now in order for your Theory to work this 3 Bijju sealed does not have a huge chakra capacity hence Kyuby should take 1 month….
Please, I could had understand 4 days, 5 days maybe, but 1 month is a speculation made by you in order to try to counter my Reply, Your reply say it takes 3 days with shukaku, whereas as of now the process takes 3 days, period. You can assume what you want, but the number I used to give Dauhti, I took it directly from the Manga, You took yours out of your own theory.
otherwise extracting Kyuubi in an instant would be out of the question anyway.. they certainly don't have a power equalling Kyuubi's huge ass capicity
So, we can say then that Yondaime took 3 Years to take Kyuby soul and seal it in Naruto.
Akatsuki noticed how things might've went a little slower without Oro helping a hand. That means one chakra capacity less, and a rather huge one. That means, apparently Akatsuki has to keep submitting chakra in order to keep draining the Bijuu out. Now we don't have any facts that you like so much about the first three Bijuu's power, or the difference between them (shouldn't be that big I suppose). But for certain we cannot compare Shukaku to Kyuubi. Given the facts I provided just now, the best assumption we can make is that extracting Kyuubi will take a considerable longer amount of time, as constant draining is required, and Kyuubi's chakra pool is incomparable to that of any other Bijuu (or to be more correct before you start fucking ants, the first three Bijuu).
Yeah and then Kisame leaved only 30% on his chakra to unseal the Shukaku and the sealing still took 3 days, So Yeah, more people to do the Jutsu could help the extraction take less time, however, the difference was not said to be a huge difference of Days or Years.
Hey Rurik fatass. Read the new chapter?
Apparently, Sanbi sealing is done. Yet, it didn't take three days. More like, apparently less than one day. I'd like to see you talk your way out of this, smartass.
Fukitsu Naruto
2006-11-16, 09:21
Hey Rurik fatass. Read the new chapter?
Apparently, Sanbi sealing is done. Yet, it didn't take three days. More like, apparently less than one day. I'd like to see you talk your way out of this, smartass.
-I'm not one to like butting in on arguments between 2 people but Xrayz0r how can you be so certain that the sealing took less than 3 days? Has the manga specifically said that "the Sanbi sealing was finished ahead of schedule, it took 2 days instead of 3"? Or better yet have you seen the the Sun rise and fall in the manga for each day?
-And a word of advice Xrayz0r, have some respect for members who have been posting here for a while. Taunting them is a sure-fire way to get banned.
Don't worry Katon, But, can he show me were it was said that the Sanbi Sealing took less than a day?, "Apparently" and "it was stated", are 2 very totally different things.
We see Shikamaru Playing Chougi while the Funeral took place (was the Funeral done the same day the Death of Assuma was announce?) then we see that in the next day Shikamaru was Practicing and doing research reading, I wonder....
And Either way, Each time Xrayz0r post, it jsut show me the level of Maturity he has, and I have met 5 YO wiht more sense than him, the more name calling he does, the more I laugh at his childish behavior. So i dont pay to much attention on what he say.
So i dont pay to much attention on what he say.
You mean, "to what he says"?
You mean, "to what he says"?
Thanks for proving my point…
Thanks for proving my point…
d00d no I corrected your sucky spelling.
I wonder if it was my mistake, or it was on purpose to see something….But…we all know what your reply is going to be…
I wonder if it was my mistake, or it was on purpose to see something….But…we all know what your reply is going to be…
You have more typos then anything. Missing an S is simply a typo, not grammar or spelling.
You have more typos then anything. Missing an S is simply a typo, not grammar or spelling.
-IM aware of that...reason why I used the word "mistake"...
You have more typos then anything. Missing an S is simply a typo, not grammar or spelling.
Sweet sweet irony ...
-IM aware of that...reason why I used the word "mistake"...
Just pointing that out to him, not you.
Mobius -
Irony? I think it would have been irony if i had a typo, since that is what i was pointing out. But meh...
therebel21
2006-11-17, 12:51
Lol I love this bashing on people's typing skills. It really is almost as intresting as the manga itself.
I guess flaming typo's will always be part of forums.
<sigh>
<kills self>
Suna no tate
2006-11-17, 14:34
Well... I'm not going to discuss who's the better typist here. Just use spellcheck before yout hit submit. I will however discuss the sealing process. I very much doubt it takes 3 days to seal the kyubi. For one thing, you're putting the kyubi attack on konoha as lasting for more than 3 days. Thats a possibility, but how likely is it? This question is more a matter of perception.
Lets say the kyubi sealing took 3 days as stated. And so far we must assume that the 4th Hokage used more or less the same sealing technique as the 3rd Hokage. We're assuming the 4th Hokage summoned the shinigami and used that very jutsu. In doing so, we are saying that the Shinigami stood around for 3 days while the 4th Hokage was struggling, trying to pull out the kyubi's soul. How odd. The shinigami barely gave the 3rd hokage 10 minutes, but he waits around for 3 days for the 4th Hokage. Continuing on, the 4th hokage can't have calculated that it would take 3 days. How could he know? Keep this in mind as I will return to it later.
We know the 4th Hokage sealed the kyubi inside the newborn baby that is Naruto. We also know that when he did it, more than likely nobody was assisting him. In fact, more than likely no one was even watching from nearby. I say this because of the extremely mysterious nature of the jutsu used. Even orochimaru was in the dark about it and such a jutsu would certainly interest him*. It was also a very dangerous situation as if the fourth were to fail, it'd be death at the hands/paws of the kyubi. You could differ on this point. It doesn't matter and doesn't really hurt the real idea thats coming up. The 4th sealed the kyubi inside the baby. We know that as soon as the sealing is complete the person dies. So the baby must have been there at the scene. How odd, but logical. Now it should all start fitting in. How can a baby survive for 3 days more or less unattended to? The 4th couldn't have known how long it would take to seal the kyubi. He probably showed up there with the baby. How could he spend 3 days sealing the kyubi under such conditions? He certainly didn't return to konoha to finish the sealing. And he probably didn't have someone nearby with the baby. So how can he spend 3 days locked with the kyubi with an unattended baby? Its more likely the sealing only took a very short time. Well I haven't fully thought everything out. Instead this was just an initial reaction.
*In fact this jutsu should interest all the ninja, as they all seem willing to die for konoha.
[...].
Suna…We are Talking about The Akatsuki sealing Process, Not Yondaime sealing process.
Suna no tate
2006-11-17, 15:13
Ha! How could I miss something so obvious! Forest and not the trees!
Well why did the leader say "onto the nibi"? Simply to mark how much time had passed. I forget if he said it was 3 days or 5 days to seal the sanbi, but thats why the author had him say it. So we know how much time passed between asuma's death and the recent chapter. You can't dare say it took one day! For one thing, it took quite a while for Asuma and his team to travel and find the Akatsuki members. In addition, the rescue team presumably carried back asuma's corpse, so they probably traveled slower. They can't just sling the dead body over chouji's shoulder; it'd be disrespectful. So you can see how it'd take over a week for news to reach konoha, or at least a few days. As for the sealing itself, to my understanding, the akatsuki members don't have to be present, but do some sort of astral projection. So in essence they could have started the sealing relatively right away.
Sabaku Kyu
2006-11-17, 15:31
Just use spellcheck before yout hit submit.
God help me... I couldn't resist. :p
But yeah, the leader said that it would take six days to seal both the nibi and the sanbi. Since the nibi has hasn't been sealed yet and we don't know how long the sanbi takes to seal compared to the nibi (most likely takes longer considering the size) we can guess that 3-5 days have passed since Asuma's death. That's assuming that the extraction process started the day he died.
BTW Suna, you were right about the number of captured bijuu. Apparently, once the the nibi is sealed the number will be up to 6 based on the number of opened eyes on that statue.
Ha! How could I miss something so obvious! Forest and not the trees!
Well why did the leader say "onto the nibi"? Simply to mark how much time had passed. I forget if he said it was 3 days or 5 days to seal the sanbi, but thats why the author had him say it.
The Leader said it would Take 6 days for both the Sanbi and the Niibi, he did not make any separation between one demon been sealed and the other Demon.
Ill say that Form the moment Assuma died, to the moment Akatsuki Finished Sealing the Sanbi, at least 2 days has passed by.
God help me... I couldn't resist. :p
LOL, this thread just keeps getting funnier!!!!!!!!:heh:
But yeah, the leader said that it would take six days to seal both the nibi and the sanbi. Since the nibi has hasn't been sealed yet and we don't know how long the sanbi takes to seal compared to the nibi (most likely takes longer considering the size) we can guess that 3-5 days have passed since Asuma's death. That's assuming that the extraction process started the day he died.
I don't think The Niibi should take just one day to seal, so for the Sanbi it should had been 3 Days as much. There is even a Chance that the Niibi is saved.
Suna no tate
2006-11-17, 18:56
God help me... I couldn't resist. :p
Its not my fault I have fat fingers. They like sausages! Bloody useless things!
Fukitsu Naruto
2006-11-17, 20:28
Its not my fault I have fat fingers. They like sausages! Bloody useless things!
-LOL man no need to worry, no one here will bite your head off if you don't spell properly.
Naruto's_girl
2006-11-17, 23:44
Not at all. only if you have a VERY dangerouse techinique.
vBulletin® v3.8.4, Copyright ©2000-2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.