View Full Version : Clannad - Episode 18 Discussion / Poll
Klashikari
2008-02-13, 16:04
Welcome to the discussion thread for Clannad, Episode 18.
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Episode 18 will be broadcasted this 15th february at 1:55 AM (Japan Time Zone),
which means this 14th february at 4:55PM (GMT 00).
Rookie103
2008-02-13, 16:07
Awesome. It's amazing how another episode comes this fast. I'm looking forward to it.
AuditionEX
2008-02-13, 16:10
Cant wait for it lulz.
I think they're going to do a lot of Tomoyo this episode, and maybe even try to finish it. Something just tells me that they wouldn't want to leave a major cliffhanger with a 1 week resolution between break weeks...
Ah well. Hopefully this'll be like episode 12 and leave us all satisfied for the break. :)
By the way, while episode 17s always seem to be really good, 18s always seem to be really bad... I hope this breaks that curse for me. :)
A new hurdle with the recent episode is that the girls in question, Kyou, Ryou and maybe Tomoyo, really do have an actual romantic interest towards Tomoya, as opposed to Kotomi and Fuuko who were on a platonic level. I'll look forward to the resolution that Kyoani cooks up for them.
Especially Kyou's, because she is delicious.
SidVicious
2008-02-13, 17:59
I'm still missing Nagisa. :(
TomoyoSakagami
2008-02-14, 07:45
Kyou + Tomoyo + Tomoya = Good Episode ^^
But seriously, Tomoyo's arc is here...or at least that's what i assume, can't wait I JUST CAN'T WAIT AHAHHAHAHAHHA!
Bankai29
2008-02-14, 07:58
Me want Kyou/Tomoyo arc...^^
Deathscyther
2008-02-14, 09:11
I miss Nagisa too, but we'll get to see her soon again^^
I hope they'll do a bit of the kyou arc as well. I like her:p
bladeofdarkness
2008-02-14, 11:37
last ep preview had given me an impression that ep 17 would be as meloncoly as hell and be all about tomoya feeling lonely
instead 17 was one of my favoirte eps
it was funny as hell for most of it
and had not one but three major events
the lesson is DONT COUNT ON THE PREVIEW
that and never underestimate kyoani
So by the looks of it...
I think it seems like this is the end of the Tomoyo arc. I guess it makes sense, since there really was not much material in the game that could be adapted without making Tomoya and Tomoyo dating. I just wish that they they would have given her an arc of her own instead of just mixing her in with everyone...
I don't think Tomoyo's arc ended yet, one of the preview shots for ep 19 did show Tomoyo.
Looking at the caps, the episode seemed to deviate from Tomoyo's story a bit more compared to the last episode. It did look like Kyoani had some fun with all the different outfits though.
The end of the episode certainly looked confusing as to what happened. But then again, I've only seen caps, not the actual episode.
Klashikari
2008-02-14, 14:06
Let's see:
Episode 18: Bullet summary and screencaps. (http://animehistory.wordpress.com/2008/02/14/clannad-episode-18/)
This episode sure nails definitely the "route", and it is quite a nice way to give a closure to the fujibayashi twins.
What was actually nice was the way how the competition had many flavours: comedy and some bitterness.
Yet the developments are set to mention, and it is nice to see how it is keeping a cohesion between the characters, not a dumb modular succession of arcs :)
SidVicious
2008-02-14, 14:35
Yeah, she's back! :D
SeedFreedom
2008-02-14, 15:04
NOOO! No freaking way Tomoyo gets a measly 3 episodes of screen time to share with Kyou. INJUSTICE I tell you At least my the looks of screenshots we find out who Tomoyo is pushing in the wheelchair
Mai Kawasumi
2008-02-14, 15:10
The episode was painful for me...
When Tomoyo realize that Okazaki was doing all this for Nagisa, she was sad, and I feel bad for her... but when Kyou starting crying was worst, I feel terrible
it’s wonderful episode
i want to know how kyou will deal whith this position
but we must wait until 28feb to know
AuditionEX
2008-02-14, 15:36
Here's some bawww moment...
http://www.imagehustler.com/0208/1203021055.jpg
http://www.imagehustler.com/0208/1203021078.jpg
http://www.imagehustler.com/0208/1203023884.jpg
velocity7
2008-02-14, 16:14
So by the looks of it...
I think it seems like this is the end of the Tomoyo arc. I guess it makes sense, since there really was not much material in the game that could be adapted without making Tomoya and Tomoyo dating. I just wish that they they would have given her an arc of her own instead of just mixing her in with everyone...
To be honest, we're not going to get anything of a Tomoyo or Kyou route as Ishihara mentioned until much, much later...
That, or you can play the game when I've finished the project. ;)
Rookie103
2008-02-14, 16:37
Where does everybody watch the new episodes when they come out?
Where does everybody watch the new episodes when they come out?
Some people live in Japan, and other people watch RAWs (Though requesting them is forbidden, they do exist), and others see screencaps and can make inferences on what happens. This is before subbing.
V7: Heh... I've played through a lot of the routes of the game already, including the Tomyo one. :p I don't really think there is that much left to cover as I've seen from screenies and stuff. Just cut the love parts out so it can be done sans time warp for the School Life, and it's easy enough to do. After all, there wasn't that much plot in the Tomoyo arc when you cut that out...
JarOfMayo
2008-02-14, 17:09
ah Nagisa. :D and looks so cute in the next episode preview :eyespin:
siber222000
2008-02-14, 17:13
awww wth
i guess anime focuses on tomoya / nagisa huh? =_+.. i wanted to see tomoyo / tomoya but oh well.. i guess i have to play game or somethin T_T
I Want To Ask
Is It True The Next Episode Is Not Show Untel 28 Feb
velocity7
2008-02-14, 17:22
I Want To Ask
Is It True The Next Episode Is Not Show Untel 28 Feb
Correct.
Also, as I should probably point out, CLANNAD is nothing more than a family drama, disguised as a dating sim. About two thirds of the way through this episode, you'll see why.
Noppapana
2008-02-14, 18:08
omg this ep blow me away, real drama
it is clear to everyone that tomoya choses nagisa over other girls
perhaps i am wrong but when tomoyo asks nagisa if their have met before, tomoyo realised the sneaky plan of tomoya. even then she did her best for the match
man, i didnt like to see the unhappy faces of my favorites girls, well except kotomi, i think she hardly knows what there
i do hope that tomoya makes up for them
Spec f***ing tacular.
Good f***ing game Kyou, good f***ing game.
Wow, it was a long time when I last watched a RAW episode of anime...but I just had to
All scenes of Nagisa with Tomoya were superb! Just what I wanted to see in this anime....
poor Kyou-chan, i'll comfort you girl :)
sikvod00
2008-02-14, 20:00
poor Kyou-chan, i'll comfort you girl :)
Na, that's OK. I got it covered. You go take care of Fuko or something.:p
Oh, I'm also healing Tomoyo's broken heart so...yeah.
harukamae
2008-02-14, 20:44
This episode was amazing, and puts Clannad at the top of my list!
Not really a fan of dating sims/renai focussed VNs, but got drawn in to KyoAni's Key adaptations because of the art and music - I couldn't really get behind Air or Kanon, but I adore Clannad and think it's a nice anime with a wide appeal.
This episode completely blew me away. Tomoya's pursuers completely blowing up and making their feelings known was hard to watch but good - I tend to be shy so in the beginning I cheered on Nagisa and Ryou, but I really felt so bad for Kyou and Tomoyo, especially when Kyou started crying toward the end of the tennis match. But at the same time, it's kinda cool that all of the girls (no matter how heartbreaking) got that closure that a lot of females competing for a male lead don't seem to get until the last episode. Seeing that Tomoyo is President kinda makes me feel like the girls will be able to move on and pursue their own things. And I guess this means we're getting close to end of the School Life...(just a gues...)
Now my only question - when is it gonna be Sunohara's turn?
wow, tomoyo and kyou/ryou arc got pre-empted in favor of nagisa run to the end? or will we still get kyou in the rain before the curtain falls? boo-urns about the break next week :frustrated:
Owaranai Destiny
2008-02-14, 21:20
From the looks of it, Tomoyo and Fujibayashi fans would most probably be quite disappointed, since this episode seems to herald the end of the focus on them. I could be wrong, though. They might be making more space for the 'After' episodes too.
siber222000
2008-02-14, 21:52
dam it.. nagisa better be fooking happy! T_T. when kyou and ryou started crying, i felt so bad T_T
margafred
2008-02-14, 21:56
Looks like the love rebel gonna start soon xD
Very, very nice.
Feeling for the Fuji twins atm.
From the looks of it, Tomoyo and Fujibayashi fans would most probably be quite disappointed, since this episode seems to herald the end of the focus on them. I could be wrong, though. They might be making more space for the 'After' episodes too.I'm satisfied with this turnout, and Kyou is my favorite out of the cast. She didn't get a half-assed resolution, she got it full-on along with her sister. One of the most amazing crashes I've seen in a while. I'm gonna hate waiting two weeks for the epilogue but this shock will be enough to carry me through.
velocity7
2008-02-14, 22:14
From the looks of it, Tomoyo and Fujibayashi fans would most probably be quite disappointed, since this episode seems to herald the end of the focus on them. I could be wrong, though. They might be making more space for the 'After' episodes too.
Trust me when I say, with the MOON PHASE summaries posted (and ep 18's is spot-on so far), there will be no time for After Story within 24 episodes.
In one swift blow (quite literally), three are out of the race. As much as this is a downer, so soon after the action all began one or two weeks ago, it makes me curious as to what will happen for the rest of the season... since I haven't played the game and whatnot.
Lurking does have its purposes, eh.
And so Kyou and Tomoyo's routes are written out (so it seems now). I was afraid of this, but I suppose it had to be done (as their routes are incompatible with Nagisa's). It makes sense... They had to be cut...
The end is coming... though I have enjoyed it (though with mixed feelings). I can only keep looking forward.
velocity7
2008-02-14, 22:51
To be honest, the blow was expected. However,
If KyoAni is true to the material of the game and honors the time-warping aspect of the Illusionary World, we may get to see Kyou and Tomoyo's routes in full form.
The end is coming... though I have enjoyed it (though with mixed feelings). I can only keep looking forward.
Trust me, we're no where near the end. It's only the tip of the iceberg. And I'll likely repeat this line again at episode 24. :p
Kaoru Chujo
2008-02-14, 22:52
I thought they did this beautifully. All the also-rans got good screen time. And Tomoya gradually realizes whom he loves. And it's the person I favor. But there are several episodes left....
velocity7
2008-02-14, 23:01
By the way:
1. Two were knocked out in this episode, not three. Kotomi never had any romantic interest in the first place; she just happens to be an oddball, much like Fuuko. :heh:
2. KyoAni should make a fortune-telling game much like the Horoscope that Tomoya, Ryou, and Kyou went to. Make it a flash game and put it on the site. :)
Velocity7, perhaps decagon meant Ryou instead of Kotomi there.
velocity7
2008-02-14, 23:10
Velocity7, perhaps decagon meant Ryou instead of Kotomi there.
Oh, heh, I wasn't even counting Ryou. :p
Leo_Otaku
2008-02-14, 23:15
There is still time Kappei! XD
Pretty good episode. I still can't help but feel Tomoyo's story was told too fast. Fuko apperances should be different she should pop up out of no where the way she pops in is odd I find. Any which way I hope they add some more from the Kyou route later or what Velocity mentioned *shifty eyes*
Was'nt her brother hit by a car? Did they make him jump off a bridge? How would that exactly put you in a wheelchair?
Where does everybody watch the new episodes when they come out?
shhhh! from sharing notworks!
Anyway, incredible episode, painful but incredible. now that all the competition is gone, we can go with the sad and final arc. :(
Well, my three favorite girls are gone! Nagisa is the aparent winner, but will she live.
Poor Kyou, all because she wanted to leave Tomoya for Ryou.
Mirrinus
2008-02-14, 23:27
To be honest, I was much more looking foward to Nagisa's arc than either Kyou's or Tomoyo's, so I'm really not at all bothered by the show's succinct journey through their arcs to arrive at Nagisa's. Sure, some fans might decry that Kyoto Animation shafted Kyou's or Tomoyo's arc sort of like Nayuki's from Kanon, but I recognize the sheer futility of trying to accomplish all that right away and still somehow cram in Nagisa's story. I mean, we all knew from the start that Clannad would be extremely difficult to adapt properly, and concessions must be made, especially when said concessions are arcs that could really destroy all that buildup of the Tomoya/Nagisa relationship from the past many episodes. I normally like faithful adaptations, but I honestly can't think of many ways to complete either Kyou's or Tomoyo's arc right now without sacrificing believability and consistancy from the rest of the cast.
So anyway, looking forward to a good episode. Yay for Tomoya/Nagisa! (come on, it's not like any of us were suffering delusions that it'd be anything else...right?)
By the way:
1. Two were knocked out in this episode, not three. Kotomi never had any romantic interest in the first place; she just happens to be an oddball, much like Fuuko. :heh:
2. KyoAni should make a fortune-telling game much like the Horoscope that Tomoya, Ryou, and Kyou went to. Make it a flash game and put it on the site. :)
Three, Tomoyo, Ryou and Kyou. It is true that ryou is not a main heroine but she also liked him!
velocity7
2008-02-14, 23:36
Three, Tomoyo, Ryou and Kyou. It is true that ryou is not a main heroine but she also liked him!
Yes, Ryou is not a main heroine. Even in the games, when you clear her "route", you don't get a light for it.
Ice Climbers
2008-02-14, 23:39
Wow, KyoAni sure set up a nice lead into the final arc by knocking out competition :heh:
even though she is not one of the main heroine, still rooting for Ryou :)
Master Chibi
2008-02-14, 23:50
Great, this basically seals Tomoya x Nagisa, which I don't like, because Nagisa is really, really, really, really, really, really, really REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, REALLY boring and dull. Extremely. Beyond words comprehensible by the human mind.
This episode was also wayyy too much too fast. Shoving Tomoyo's arc into the span of like 3 minutes killed what real connection I could have had with her. Also, they've got to freaking stop bringing back Fuuko, it was only funny the first time, and it's actually managing to upset me now. And lastly, killing off THREE potential hook ups that quick? Lame. Mega lame.
And seeing Kyou cry period makes me hate this episode. A whole freaking lot.
I hope Nagisa dies somehow.
I'm fully serious.
margafred
2008-02-14, 23:51
By the way:
1. Two were knocked out in this episode, not three. Kotomi never had any romantic interest in the first place; she just happens to be an oddball, much like Fuuko. :heh:
Not 3?Tomoyo,Ryou and Kyou,all 3 of them (including Tomoyo i believed) had feelings for Tomoya,and all 3 of them were on the scene at that time,saw what Tomoya did at that time in front of Nagisa.
So this series will be like Kanon again?In Kanon Yuiichi and Ayu were kissing at the end of episode 19,marking the beginning of the important event,about whom Yuiichi will go for >> Nayuki or Ayu.If we compare it with CLANNAD,and take today's event as the beginning of the love story for Tomoya,then the next 6 episodes will be the critical episodes for the other 2 girls,to make their move and win Tomoya's heart.Ryou i believe already gave up on Tomoya,after seeing how protective Tomoya was towards Nagisa.Kyou,whom had just realize about her feelings for Tomoya after the event in episode 17,for sure won't give up on Tomoya..so whatever act she will do after this,she do it for the sake of herself,and not for Ryou anymore.I'm not sure about Tomoyo though,but even if she want to make her move towards Tomoya,she will at least need to fight Kyou,whom will be her most tight rival in order to win Tomoya's love.
It would be interesting if any of the main girl start to make their move after today's event though.That would make the whole storyline becomes more interesting.An easy win for Nagisa without any fights from Kyou and Tomoya is just too boring i think.
Master Chibi
2008-02-14, 23:52
Wait, so there's hope for Kyou?
margafred
2008-02-14, 23:56
Yes, Ryou is not a main heroine. Even in the games, when you clear her "route", you don't get a light for it.
In the game she's not.But in the anime i believe she is.
Wait, so there's hope for Kyou?
Lets just hope for it.Even if there's no hope for Kyou to win against Nagisa,at least i wish she show some kind of fights for it.
Hypernova
2008-02-15, 00:09
Great, this basically seals Tomoya x Nagisa, which I don't like, because Nagisa is really, really, really, really, really, really, really REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, REALLY boring and dull. Extremely. Beyond words comprehensible by the human mind.
This episode was also wayyy too much too fast. Shoving Tomoyo's arc into the span of like 3 minutes killed what real connection I could have had with her. Also, they've got to freaking stop bringing back Fuuko, it was only funny the first time, and it's actually managing to upset me now. And lastly, killing off THREE potential hook ups that quick? Lame. Mega lame.
And seeing Kyou cry period makes me hate this episode. A whole freaking lot.
I hope Nagisa dies somehow.
I'm fully serious.
I agree, the innocent-angel-girl trope is too overused and favoured these days it's just retarded.
As for Fuuko I think one blogger's reaction describes it best: "Why won't you die!"
I agree, the innocent-angel-girl trope is too overused and favoured these days it's just retarded.
As for Fuuko I think one bloggers reaction describes it best: "Why won't you die!"
because she is alive and basically she WON"T die because his sister got married. Lets face If fuuko dies his sister would never had married.
Hypernova
2008-02-15, 00:17
because she is alive and basically she WON"T die because his sister got married. Lets face If fuuko dies his sister would never had married.
She can at least have the decency to stop having spirit projections that ruin the moment.
Kaisos Erranon
2008-02-15, 00:19
Great, this basically seals Tomoya x Nagisa, which I don't like, because Nagisa is really, really, really, really, really, really, really REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, REALLY boring and dull. Extremely. Beyond words comprehensible by the human mind.
This episode was also wayyy too much too fast. Shoving Tomoyo's arc into the span of like 3 minutes killed what real connection I could have had with her. Also, they've got to freaking stop bringing back Fuuko, it was only funny the first time, and it's actually managing to upset me now. And lastly, killing off THREE potential hook ups that quick? Lame. Mega lame.
And seeing Kyou cry period makes me hate this episode. A whole freaking lot.
I hope Nagisa dies somehow.
I'm fully serious.
That post of yours is very very funny and you have no idea why.
However, I actually like Nagisa as a character.
Sure, the whole "angel-girl" trope is overused, but at least it's done WELL, which is more than can be said for any non-KyoAni production.
Master Chibi
2008-02-15, 00:19
because she is alive and basically she WON"T die because his sister got married. Lets face If fuuko dies his sister would never had married.
No, see now they're just abusing her role for comedic relief, which the show can do FINE on its own without her, but they're seriously shoving her into these random spots now that just aren't funny at all.
I mean at first I really didn't like Fuuko, but by the end of her arc she totally grew on me. Now with this crap they're doing her, it's destroying what she had going for her in her arc in the first place.
Sure, the whole "angel-girl" trope is overused, but at least it's done WELL, which is more than can be said for any non-KyoAni production.
That doesn't make it more entertaining / enjoyable. Higher production values barely go past aesthetics anyway.
velocity7
2008-02-15, 00:23
No, see now they're just abusing her role for comedic relief, which the show can do FINE on its own without her, but they're seriously shoving her into these random spots now that just aren't funny at all.
I mean at first I really didn't like Fuuko, but by the end of her arc she totally grew on me. Now with this crap they're doing her, it's destroying what she had going for her in her arc in the first place.
Fuuko did this in the games as well.
Kaisos Erranon
2008-02-15, 00:26
Fuuko did this in the games as well.
You know, that doesn't necessarily make it okay or funny.
Just pointing that out.
Hypernova
2008-02-15, 00:27
Fuuko did this in the games as well.
While that is true I don't see why it can't be dropped in the anime version. It just doesn't work IMO.
Master Chibi
2008-02-15, 00:37
Fuuko did this in the games as well.
That's just wrong then.
"Hey, let's abuse my role in this story and de-moralize my arc by using me purely for comedic value from this point on!
YAY"
She does show development though, so that's good enough for me *shrug*.
Master Chibi
2008-02-15, 01:06
She does show development though, so that's good enough for me *shrug*.
But that's proof that you're 'tolerating' instead of enjoying it.
rave_master16
2008-02-15, 01:11
Looks like no. 18 episodes of animes makes flame wars in forums...
I think a lot of you will say this."Ok now, the tsunderes didn't win... let's pull down the main heroine...."
Poor Nagisa... she was bad-mouthed by these people... If only Tomoya hears this...
:D
Mai Kawasumi
2008-02-15, 01:13
Looks like no. 18 episodes of animes makes flame wars in forums...
I think a lot of you will say this."Ok now, the tsunderes didn't win... let's pull down the main heroine...."
Poor Nagisa... she was bad-mouthed by these people... If only Tomoya hears this...
:D
I'm a Kyou fan and I don't dislike Nagisa
I don't like that they made Kyou cry :frustrated:
rave_master16
2008-02-15, 01:17
It's inevitable to see any tears in a romance battles... That's why in Shuffle, I was attached in Kaede's emotion..
Klashikari
2008-02-15, 01:26
She can at least have the decency to stop having spirit projections that ruin the moment.
How exactly her appareance "ruins" the moment?
In this episode, it was probably the most fitting hijack attempt.
yet again, if someone says again it is "cheapening her end", why not removing kotomi with the oversea studies then? *cough*
Consideirng that most of the development has been done subtly between Nagisa and Tomoya has taken place, it would be quite strange from Tomoya to suddenly 'hook' up with someone out of the blue considering that he didn't really romatically bond with another girl (not that i know of from what i have seen).
All in all, the development was all good considering that the whole nagisa/tomoya develop is not sudden, but developed as the story went on. Even though everything is not so perfect, the way things went is much better than some of the other more overrate shows shown this year.
AuditionEX
2008-02-15, 01:34
Hmmm...
Here we go again. Fuko's retarded apperance, quite annoying. Also I dont like the BGM where Ryou and Kyou suddenly cried out loud, it's not right imo and suddenly cutting the scene to the bulletin board. Rush episode is rush indeed. :(
Btw. Ep 19 will be delayed! ouch.
Best part of the whole ep was the bento fight with all the girls. Fuuko's random appearance actually added to the scene for once instead of being random and out of place.
That said, however, the rest of the episode deflated quickly. Nagisa's return was blunt and lacked any sort of emotional punch, despite Kyoani's forced attempts at selling it as such ("look! Tomoya's happier now! GET IT?"). I did feel bad seeing Tomoyo and Kyou's shunned expressions though, since they were far better choices and infinitely more entertaining to watch than dango girl.
Ryou's exaggerated crying had me crying also....from laughing so damn hard :heh:
Chibi is right, Kimikiss does the romance better than Clannad ever could. Kyoani should start taking notes.
Mirrinus
2008-02-15, 01:46
Wait...people are still complaining that Nagisa and Tomoya are getting together? Have we all been watching the same show? I thought it was painfully obvious that it was going to happen starting from, you know, the very first scene of episode 1. If anyone is upset and indignant over who the main couple is, I only have one question: why are you watching the show again? I gladly drop any show where I can't stand the main characters, instead of complaining about how the main heroine gets the guy at the end.
If this is just going to degenerate into a "my girl is better than your girl" instead of people actually stopping to think about which relationship would develop Tomoya and the story itself the most right now, then I really can't take these complaints seriously anymore. I hardly think it's wise for Kyoto Animation to undo a dozen episodes' worth of character and relationship development just to satisfy the demands of people who hate the main heroine.
Master Chibi
2008-02-15, 01:50
How exactly her appareance "ruins" the moment?
In this episode, it was probably the most fitting hijack attempt.
yet again, if someone says again it is "cheapening her end", why not removing kotomi with the oversea studies then? *cough*
It is cheapening her end.
There's a difference between her being in everyone's minds and hearts as part of what had happened, and this lame abuse of her character for comedic relief.
"Oh, she seems so familar,"
It's not funny. That's the worst part. It's one thing to use her to be funny, it's another thing to fail 3-4 times consecutively. Her interactions / conversations with Tomoya far out shadow this drivel and 15 second long 'TA-DAAH, WUT UP FUUKO IN DAH HOUSE' sequences they tack on before she even starts talking. I had these wide grins on my face every time she showed up during her own arc, but now I'm just rolling my eyes into the back of my head to make sure my mind didn't up and leave in protest.
Chibi is right, Kimikiss does the romance better than Clannad ever could. Kyoani should start taking notes.
Thank you.
I like this show plenty, but there's no denying the actual romantic aspect of the show falls rather flat. They can cycle the girl's arcs just fine (which are obviously executed rather well), but outside of pulling you into a character from their arc or nuances, you tend to grasp for straws when wondering who Okazaki should pair up with, if anyone at all.
Mirrinus
2008-02-15, 01:54
Abuse of Fuuko's character for comic relief? I'd understand if this were somehow out of character for Fuuko, but like it or not, these appearances are more or less what we've come to expect from her ever since early on in her own arc...
Yeah, as if Fuuko would be much happier being a vegetable than running around with the people she's befriended...
i really liked the fuuko arc. and since she has no real role outside of after story, i welcome her brief cameos. (lol @ last eps "can fuuko go home now?")
Master Chibi
2008-02-15, 01:58
Abuse of Fuuko's character for comic relief? I'd understand if this were somehow out of character for Fuuko, but like it or not, these appearances are more or less what we've come to expect from her ever since early on in her own arc...
Again, expecting them is one thing.
Them actually being WORTHWHILE is another.
Yeah, as if Fuuko would be much happier being a vegetable than running around with the people she's befriended...
Oh yeah, she totally loves hanging out with people that don't even know she exists in the first place.
All I'm seeing is:
FUUKO IS HERE!
FUUKO HAS A JOKE.
FUUKO DELIVERS PUNCHLINE.
FUUKO IS NOT HERE ANYMORE!
I love you Fuuko, just not like this.
Now it's more evident to everyone that Tomoya has feelings for Nagisa after he pushed that guy's hand away. It's like an unconscious saying "Don't you dare touch my girl" :heh: I feel sorry for Kyou and Ryou since they can't beat Nagisa over Tomoya. Is it me or does Fuko randomly pops out everywhere?
Kaisos Erranon
2008-02-15, 01:59
Cleaning Up Romantic Loose Ends (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CleaningUpRomanticLooseEnds): Polarizing communites (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DieForOurShip). One day at a time.
All I'm seeing is:
FUUKO IS HERE!
FUUKO HAS A JOKE.
FUUKO DELIVERS PUNCHLINE.
FUUKO IS NOT HERE ANYMORE!
See, to me, that's actually a really really funny formula.
Mirrinus
2008-02-15, 02:04
I don't really see how Fuuko's appearances are any more or less worthwhile than many of the other elements of Clannad's comedy. If it retains consistancy within the show (i.e. no character derailments), follows the original source material, and keeps a character in the show instead of forgetting them altogether (one of the biggest complaints with Kanon), then what's so bad about them? If your only complaint is that they don't make you laugh, then I'd imagine that's not a claim that reverberates universally.
And I wouldn't be surprised if Fuuko does enjoy hanging out with them despite them not fully knowing who she is. Remember, she's doing this as a way to repay everyone for everything they did to make her sister's wedding a success (see? Her appearances even tie back into her own story arc!). It matters not whether they know her; she's just returning the favor (even if they don't always go as planned).
And dang, Kaisos quoted TVTropes before I could...>_< Well, someone start adding the Clannad entry to "Die For Our Ship"
Master Chibi
2008-02-15, 02:06
Cleaning Up Romantic Loose Ends (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CleaningUpRomanticLooseEnds): Polarizing communites (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DieForOurShip). One day at a time.
See, to me, that's actually a really really funny formula.
I'd agree.
Just not with Fuuko.
I don't really see how Fuuko's appearances are any more or less worthwhile than many of the other elements of Clannad's comedy. If it retains consistancy within the show (i.e. no character derailments), follows the original source material, and keeps a character in the show instead of forgetting them altogether (one of the biggest complaints with Kanon), then what's so bad about them? If your only complaint is that they don't make you laugh, then I'd imagine that's not a claim that reverberates universally.
And I wouldn't be surprised if Fuuko does enjoy hanging out with them despite them not fully knowing who she is. Remember, she's doing this as a way to repay everyone for everything they did to make her sister's wedding a success (see? Her appearances even tie back into her own story arc!). It matters not whether they know her; she's just returning the favor (even if they don't always go as planned).
And dang, Kaisos quoted TVTropes before I could...>_<
Dude, what's the point of creating an arc where someone outright fades away from you only to have them pop up every episode or so in an attempt to be funny? I found Fuuko funny when she talked to Okazaki, but I don't find her funny in these scenes, even if she's repaying everyone somehow (this is why I say it's abuse of her character, they're literally milking her at this point). And I got attached to her through her arc, and got emotional when it ended. Now the more I see of her, the less attachment I have towards how her arc ended. She didn't fade away, she's still THERE.
Kanon was different because they bloody existed on the same plane of existance, outside of say Makoto.
Can you imagine Makoto coming back?
God, I sure hope not.
Christ, just thinking about Makoto's arc is getting me depressed.
Kaisos Erranon
2008-02-15, 02:13
It's only funny BECAUSE it's Fuko.
And Ayu didn't exist on the same plane either...
Mirrinus
2008-02-15, 02:19
I thought it was pretty clear from episode 9 that Fuuko doesn't just disappear; she's always there. She fades away from people's memories, but she doesn't ACTUALLY disappear. Even when it feels like she was disappearing, she was still around, it was just that people didn't notice her. Recall when Tomoya and Nagisa remember Fuuko again in the middle of episode 9, and it turns out Fuuko has been next to them all along. This isn't like Makoto dying literally; the show has always had Fuuko wandering around (who knows where else she has been that we or the rest of the cast haven't gotten to see?).
Actually, that kind of reminds me of Hanyuu from Higurashi...but I don't want to go off on tangents and spoilers there...
Anyway, I find it awfully funny that when Fuuko's arc was just starting, people were all crying "Why is this just like Makoto's arc?" And now, paradoxically, people are basically demanding "Why isn't this more like Makoto's arc?"
Master Chibi
2008-02-15, 02:20
It's only funny BECAUSE it's Fuko.
Well I guess it's just a relative matter then, so I won't argue the matter really ;p.
And Ayu didn't exist on the same plane either...
Yeah you're right, thanks for correcting me on that ;p.
Master Chibi
2008-02-15, 02:23
I thought it was pretty clear from episode 9 that Fuuko doesn't just disappear; she's always there. She fades away from people's memories, but she doesn't ACTUALLY disappear. Even when it feels like she was disappearing, she was still around, it was just that people didn't notice her. Recall when Tomoya and Nagisa remember Fuuko again in the middle of episode 9, and it turns out Fuuko has been next to them all along. This isn't like Makoto dying literally; the show has always had Fuuko wandering around (who knows where else she has been that we or the rest of the cast haven't gotten to see?).
Actually, that kind of reminds me of Hanyuu from Higurashi...but I don't want to go off on tangents and spoilers there...
Anyway, I find it awfully funny that when Fuuko's arc was just starting, people were all crying "Why is this just like Makoto's arc?" And now, paradoxically, people are basically demanding "Why isn't this more like Makoto's arc?"
So now you're saying she was barely there to begin with, and now she barely left, is that it?
Ok then, I'm sure that makes sense somehow.
But yeah, Makoto's arc > Fuuko's by a loooooooooooooong shot.
MeoTwister5
2008-02-15, 02:24
Considering the nature of the story arcs for Kyou/Ryou and Tomoyo, this might have been the only real way to have ended their romantic attempts with Tomoya without doing something trite or ridiculous.
It just kind of leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Ryou's reaction was a bit over the top, Kyou handled hers a bit better than her sister, and Tomoyo's wandering mind while looking at the sky makes me a bit baffled.
But I guess it was fair enough. The development between Nagisa and Tomoya here pretty much sealed the deal, but seeing the way the other 3 girls ended up in the aftermath of the realization that Tomoya's heart belongs to someone else was a tad bit too sad. Hopefully the next few episodes will at least show them coping realistically with this, rather than going ballistic or suddenly becoming "normal".
Master Chibi
2008-02-15, 02:27
Or Nagisa's gotta die.
Somehow.
Mirrinus
2008-02-15, 02:29
I'm saying that Fuuko's always been around, and always will be, so the whole point of her arc wasn't that she faded away entirely. People seem to have grown so accustomed to the mindset that once a character's arc is done, they can't come back, which might be why people are so eager to believe Fuuko disappeared completely at the end of her arc, despite Tomoya's last lines in episode 9.
I also can't really say they're "milking" Fuuko's character considering she's only been in less than half of the episodes since the end of her arc...
And for the record, I thought Fuuko's arc was better than Makoto's, but that was mostly because I enjoyed the Tomoya/Nagisa relationship buildup, which totally cemented them as a couple IMHO. That and I just don't really like Makoto, lol.
Master Chibi
2008-02-15, 02:34
That and I just don't really like Makoto, lol.
That's it, you're dead to me.
*runs off crying into the sunset*
Mirrinus
2008-02-15, 02:40
Well, I don't really hate or anything, but she was my least favorite character in the series, hehehe. I actually liked Mishio more, mostly due to the drama CDs.
Master Chibi
2008-02-15, 02:43
*runs right off a cliff*
CURSE YOUUUUuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
Why is it when events like this happen, that someone always resorts to the "Nagisa must die" or "Rukia must be !@#$ed to hell" (quoted from the bleach exile anti rukia fanclub board (from some really sick people there)) or something along that same lines of sick behaviour that is plain dumb.
Eventhough I feel for Tomoyo and Kyou (both of whom are my favourite characters (not the point of some random fanboy insanity where i get the pitch forks out and something that no real person would do), it would be really stupid to degenerate to that kind of lvl.
"Or Nagisa's gotta die." - quoted
Seriously, why watch this show if this was going to happen anyhow.
Master Chibi
2008-02-15, 02:58
Seriously, why watch this show if this was going to happen anyhow.
Ask the people who watched School Days, because I sure didn't.
And it's just a slight jab really. I still find her immensely boring and dull, but I'm not hating on her because she took away my favorite 'shipping' or some other 14 year old live journal infested nonsense. I get passionate and quite literary about these things~
;p
Kaisos Erranon
2008-02-15, 03:04
Ask the people who watched School Days, because I sure didn't.
School Days was awesome because of the massive trainwreck, and because it killed off the avatar of whiny male harem leads in a wonderfully satisfying way.
Now if only they'd kill off Yuji Sakai...
Mirrinus
2008-02-15, 03:07
Kaisos: You are now my new best friend.
Master Chibi
2008-02-15, 03:14
Now if only they'd kill of Yuji Sakai...
And Yoshida!
Don't forget Yoshida.
Why is it when events like this happen, that someone always resorts to the "Nagisa must die" or "Rukia must be !@#$ed to hell" (quoted from the bleach exile anti rukia fanclub board (from some really sick people there)) or something along that same lines of sick behaviour that is plain dumb.
Eventhough I feel for Tomoyo and Kyou (both of whom are my favourite characters (not the point of some random fanboy insanity where i get the pitch forks out and something that no real person would do), it would be really stupid to degenerate to that kind of lvl.
It would be nice if there was some consideration for other people's likes, yeah.
with the development in school days, the death of the particularly sexed up fiend is only understandable (due to the pain he caused everyone with no apparent remorse).
same with here with the develop here although (this might be a tiny bit off topic) who is Yuji Sakai and what development came that warrants this outcry (not starting anything, just curious)
MeoTwister5
2008-02-15, 03:30
with the development in school days, the death of the particularly sexed up fiend is only understandable (due to the pain he caused everyone with no apparent remorse).
same with here with the develop here although (this might be a tiny bit off topic) who is Yuji Sakai and what development came that warrants this outcry (not starting anything, just curious)
The "I'm as dumb and dense as a brick" male lead of Shakugan no Shana. At least, the next episode of season 2 may point him going in a different direction.
But at this point, season 2 is only tolerable because Shana kicks ass by being... wel herself.
And yes, Yoshida must die.
lol, thanks for pointing it out for me.
Is Yoshida a person hated on similar scare to makoto from school day (cause i notice a fair bit of dislike for the guy (and sorry for going off topic once again))?
MeoTwister5
2008-02-15, 03:37
lol, thanks for pointing it out for me.
Is Yoshida a person hated on similar scare to makoto from school day (cause i notice a fair bit of dislike for the guy (and sorry for going off topic once again))?
She's a whiny girl who constantly pines for the male lead while being excessively melodramatic about "not being able to stand where they are".
If she wants to use that item and die, then she should do so by all means, not a lot of watchers will miss her.:D
Mirrinus
2008-02-15, 03:39
Yoshida is just hated for being Shana's romantic competition.
And in all fairness, it's more justifiable simply because Shana is the main heroine, and thus should be expected to win out (like Nagisa, *cough*). Or it could be that I just don't like Yoshida.
Okay, I feel like we're starting to get pretty sidetracked, so...
Yeah. Hurray for Tomoya/Nagisa development. Sorry to the Kyou and Tomoyo fans, but concessions had to be made for the story to remain internally consistant with prior buildup for Tomoya. But hey, it was all to be expected, right?
As long as the development is not out of the blue, i don't really mind. Though it is extremely hard not to feel Tomoyo and Kyou and Ryou (unless you are heartless) after what happens in this episode, considering these events are not seen so often in this way. (main emphasis is on the 'not' as i don't want my statement to be taken wrongly)
Forgive me if i have angered anyone in my post since to tell you the truth after visiting the bleach exile forum boards my tolerence for 'kill' and '@#$%' topics have been lowered greatly towards reasonable characters (though for really stupid ones, my tolerence stands)
I am a little in experience when writing on a forum board so i may be a little out of place, sorry for that.
Mirrinus
2008-02-15, 03:50
Actually, I thought your reaction was pretty justified and normal...
MeoTwister5
2008-02-15, 04:13
I still like Nagisa best as a female character.
Mainly because she is, to an extent, boring and normal. But then again, she is more "incomplete" as compared to the other girls. The girls tend to have a single problem or issue that's needs resolution. Nagisa's issues are relatively minor in severity, but she and her problems get complex as the story and relationship goes. She cannot and will not be concluded by one simple moment of resolution.
Like I said in the previous episode thread, she's a work in progress, much unlike the other girls who have one last major spot to polish before they shine. Nagisa has a lot of polishing to to through, like a diamond you still have to cut out from the stone and shape.
And being the focal point of this most important event in the story, the way she handled herself in that moment helps give me utmost respect to mothers everywhere.
Owaranai Destiny
2008-02-15, 04:32
Wow...When did this thread veer off a little to School Days and Shakugan no Shana? I would love to rebuke some people on Yuuji being 'typical', but that would be way off topic. ;)
Anyway, I do feel for Kyou, Ryou and Tomoyo. A LOT (Well, the latter's obvious for me, but seeing the sisters cry...) In contrast, I'm also happy for Nagisa, since the development is coming along nicely. As much as I would love to see more Tomoyo development, the story has to go on. I'm here for that in the first place, anyway. Favorite pairings come second. :)
Manji Midou
2008-02-15, 05:07
>_>
<_<
I don't know whats more shocking...
A) fuko's dishes
B) Tomoya slapping the hand away from the tennis player as he reached for nagisa
C) people in here, shocked that tomoya likes nagisa more then said other girls, I would think it was pretty obvious that TomoyaxNagisa would be the true coupling in the series after episode 1.....
>_>
<_<
Ascaloth
2008-02-15, 05:16
Watched the TWH-Sprocket sub of Episode 18...
It felt like KyoAni just pressed the "nitro" button on CLANNAD's plot again in the middle of the episode. Tomoyo gets hit by a smear campaign...wait WTF, Tomoya's resorting to sports to settle matters again? Only in the CLANNADverse can any and all problems be resolved by a sporting match-up; oh gosh, that sounds like a shounen premise, LOL. Wait WTF, Tomoya's back at school again? Wow, for some reason time really flies when one is on suspension...wait WTF, Nagisa's back too, and looks none the worse for wear to boot? Eh.....
And I kinda feel sad for Tomoyo; her entire background story felt like it had been, for lack of a better term, "Sayuri-ized". I can certainly see a hint of the great story that KyoAni used as the source material, but here it felt like KyoAni decided to use her like they did with Kurata Sayuri in Kanon (2006) instead, compressing the best parts of her story in half an episode. Tomoyo's story is even pretty similar in content to Sayuri's, but I'll forebear to say more for fear of overstepping the "spoiler" boundaries. However, the difference between Tomoyo and Sayuri is that the former is a main girl....she shouldn't have to have been treated this way. T_T
As for Fuuko, I may have thought she really blew it when she Summoned herself into the fray last episode, but otherwise I haven't really minded her other appearances including this one. It's good for a facepalm and a chuckle, and basically I like that she's still hanging around. If anyone doesn't like it....*shrug* to each his own, I guess. Agree to disagree and move on from here, everyone?
However, that all said, KyoAni's handling of Tomoyo's story was fair enough, if a little short, and basically they tied up Tomoyo and the Fujibayashi threads very well at the end. Moreover, the Tomoya-Nagisa development at the end was all worth it for me, even if I had to sit through the unfortunate sequence of the crestfallen twins. That was hard to see, that was...but that's what happens in romances. Gotta say, KyoAni did their best possible to create a CLANNAD that's predominantly Nagisa-route with elements of the other routes used to beef up the Nagisa route as much as possible...and that's what most of us watch KyoAni's KEY adaptations for, isn't it? I'll give them credit for that.
To conclude, it was a nice episode, if a little hampered by the fact that it felt awfully like two episodes squeezed into one. They really should have drawn out Tomoyo's story just a bit longer.
8/10. Blog article coming tonight.
Kinny Riddle
2008-02-15, 05:33
Not only did Tomoyo get full background story, they also managed to stuff in more Kyou and Ryou (the arcade fortune telling game scene). The scene where everyone insisted on stuffing Tomoya with their food (including Kotomi and Fuuko) was just funny.
However, just when Tomoya seems to be losing control over his ever growing harem, Nagisa returns to show who's boss.
Poor Kyou. :sad: Poor Ryou. :sad: And poor Tomoyo. :sad: To see the twins cry was just painful to bear.
Though seriously, to some of you people out there, I cannot believe you are incensed simply because Tomoya ended up with Nagisa. Unlike other visual novel based shows, KEY has made it EXPLICITLY CLEAR that Tomoya will end up with no one else apart from Nagisa.
I consider myself liking Kyou and Ryou better than Nagisa, but I do not dislike her at the very least, and I held no illusion that Tomoya would dump Nagisa for them, though you're of course entitled to your opinion, I have to say I am very disappointed with your attitude to say the least.
Already last episode, there was someone giving episode 17 a 10 for the completely insane reason that Nagisa is out of the picture. I think I'd be less offended by a serial gut-voter than a vote for such a reason, at least the gut-voter is honest about having no illusion about the show not being his cup of tea from the beginning.
I'll let Mirrinus cap up what I had wanted to say.
Wait...people are still complaining that Nagisa and Tomoya are getting together? Have we all been watching the same show? I thought it was painfully obvious that it was going to happen starting from, you know, the very first scene of episode 1. If anyone is upset and indignant over who the main couple is, I only have one question: why are you watching the show again? I gladly drop any show where I can't stand the main characters, instead of complaining about how the main heroine gets the guy at the end.
If this is just going to degenerate into a "my girl is better than your girl" instead of people actually stopping to think about which relationship would develop Tomoya and the story itself the most right now, then I really can't take these complaints seriously anymore. I hardly think it's wise for Kyoto Animation to undo a dozen episodes' worth of character and relationship development just to satisfy the demands of people who hate the main heroine.
As for Fuuko's random insertion, I myself am neutral about all this. In that I neither feel delighted nor annoyed by it.
And to all you Yoshida bashers, though I disagree with you guys, you are still entitled to your opinion, but please go do that nonsensical bashing in the Shana section, don't bring it here.
oompa loompa
2008-02-15, 05:34
i donno.. i really cant understand why people think this is the end of the respective arcs..true very fast paced.. but some of the episodes of clannad have been like that.. well, it probably is sorry, but not the end of the line for tomoya x all the other girls xcept for nagisa.. sure, tomoya x nagisa is going to happen.. why are you surprised? im more interested in HOW it happens. if kyo ani can do it in a way that leaves a satisfying ending for the rest ( it is possible you know ), id be more than happy - well i thikn they can cos ive always thought they do great work
. what i mean is that the other characters and their relationship with tomoya are not (probably not XD) going to be sidelined just as yet. i get the feeling this is where the drama is going to start kicking into the series. its not a crappy ending yet.. im looking forward to it! theres a lot that can still be done!
btw is clannad slated for 24 or 26 episodes? 24.. err maybe things are on their way to being wrapped up, 26, who knows what could happen.
Klashikari
2008-02-15, 05:37
And I kinda feel sad for Tomoyo; her entire background story felt like it had been, for lack of a better term, "Sayuri-ized". I can certainly see a hint of the great story that KyoAni used as the source material, but here it felt like KyoAni decided to use her like they did with Kurata Sayuri in Kanon (2006) instead, compressing the best parts of her story in half an episode. Tomoyo's story is even pretty similar in content to Sayuri's, but I'll forebear to say more for fear of overstepping the "spoiler" boundaries. However, the difference between Tomoyo and Sayuri is that the former is a main girl....she shouldn't have to have been treated this way. T_T
As much as it seems a bit "impact lacking", this is exactly how it was conveyed in the game.
There is absolutely no way to flesh tomoyo's story, until they add the struggle of the elections, which cannot be done due Tomoya's stance here.
In fact, they simply fused her path from Nagisa's route with her own. If they were to stick with Nagisa only, we would probably never know why Tomoyo is doing so hard to be the student council president.
btw is clannad slated for 24 or 26 episodes? 24.. err maybe things are on their way to being wrapped up, 26, who knows what could happen.
slated for 24 episodes. Still, there is no confirmation of a second season (and hints of these are quite rampant)
Kinny Riddle
2008-02-15, 05:44
I'm quite surprised they changed the way Tomoyo's brother Takafumi's method for his "suicide".
In the visual novel, he jumped into a running car and nearly got killed, I don't know why Kyo-Ani changed it into him jumping off a bridge into a river, which though still potentially fatal, would have less impact than getting run down by a car.
Ascaloth
2008-02-15, 05:48
As much as it seems a bit "impact lacking", this is exactly how it was conveyed in the game.
There is absolutely no way to flesh tomoyo's story, until they add the struggle of the elections, which cannot be done due Tomoya's stance here.
In fact, they simply fused her path from Nagisa's route with her own. If they were to stick with Nagisa only, we would probably never know why Tomoyo is doing so hard to be the student council president.
*blink*
So what I saw was what there was?
No wonder I've heard that the Tomoyo story in the game is one of the weaker ones...
Klashikari
2008-02-15, 05:48
I'm quite surprised they changed the way Tomoyo's brother Takafumi's method for his "suicide".
In the visual novel, he jumped into a running car and nearly got killed, I don't know why Kyo-Ani changed it into him jumping off a bridge into a river, which though still potentially fatal, would have less impact than getting run down by a car.
The way how Takafumi did that (described in the game) would leave almost no chance of survival.
I think it has much more impact on Tomoyo and her parents, because he did it right on their face, while in the game, it was on his own, at night IIRC. It would make it harder to involve the three of them if Takafumi did that with the "original method"
*blink*
So what I saw was what there was?
No wonder I've heard that the Tomoyo story in the game is one of the weaker ones...
Tomoyo's route isn't based solely on her past. it is just a backstory needed to justifiy and explain her actions.
The core of her route is basically the big struggle during the elections, with Tomoya and Youhei as her only support.
In my opinion, the weak part was rather how bluntly they conveyed the conclusion of her route in the game. Aside of it, it isn't exactly weak compared to others (namely Koumura and Misae)
MeoTwister5
2008-02-15, 06:00
Misae and Koumura's stories were the weakest in the game, and if it goes as I think it does it's a good move on KyoAni not to present their stories anymore since they do little if not nothing to advance the themes of the story.
*blink*
So what I saw was what there was?
No wonder I've heard that the Tomoyo story in the game is one of the weaker ones...
Half of Tomoyo's story is about her and Tomoya as a couple and the troubles around that. Since the anime is obviously taking the Nagisa route, it's pretty much impossible for them to really get deep into Tomoyo's route. It may be one of the weaker ones, but that wasn't all of it. That was just all they could show.
Well from what I see, I find it kind of funny. The flashbacks are okay and all, as well as the internal thoughts and natural reactions but ...
Seriously, there wasn't that much shown of Nagisa that really displays an advantage. (Now, since the episode ran the way it did, 19 - 24 better be extremely well executed to make it really convincing. 18 gave a big hint.) The story potential and capacity is all there. Since 18 ran the way it did, there isn't really a blockade, so 19 - 24 have no limits. Well, there were plenty of things that make it clear (or maybe I don't know why there was no visiting.)
Though I guess that's what subtle notation does. (Though I still think running the Fuuko route into the Nagisa's route would have made the emotions or frequency of Tomoya and Nagisa seeing each other seem a lot more convincing. Seems like a huge difference between that and episodes 10 - 18.)
So it feels like the emotions are there indeed, just no ... oomph I guess? 18 didn't feel very oomph-y. The execution was fine, but it's more like pain for the opportunity cost. It's funny since it's like if Nagisa knew about the totally indirect turmoil she completely indirectly caused, it's like oh no I don't want to break/sadden multiple hearts. XD
... hm, that's probably also why Kyoani inserted that during the Nagisa out of commission to make it a Tomoya preference for Nagisa, therefore it's more like choice, rather than opportunity cost. In that sense, it's just fine.
Now of course that's also because ... not much of Nagisa's route has been ran (oh, run drama club, oh, get it up.) However, with the key point stated in this episode (ironically not mentioned very much in the thread), will be an emphasis that will settle it.
But wow, that's quite the opportunity cost this episode. Tomoyo's is rather normal, but I can't say the same for the Fujibayashi twins (twin opportunity cost would have seemed more convincing for me, though Kyoani doesn't actually run bad ends.) Kind of makes all the efforts seem to head towards vain (and another irony is that they could do nearly the exact same thing every once in a while ... aka cook).
On a random note: The episode actually mentions Kyou knew Tomoya from second year. I don't think this was actually mentioned before, and I found it interesting, and it's not particularly story relevant or spoiler either.
Though but seriously, although there's nothing wrong with Nagisa, the usage of her is a bit ... odd. Suddenly back! Suddenly in danger! I mean it makes sense, and it kind of doesn't. (The thought process and choice is fine, but that extra scene?)
On a very random note, I thought the suspension would have netted more possibilities like Yukine's route LOL. But since Kyoani hasn't or probably won't run it, it probably wouldn't manifest.
Ironically again, with the speed of the episode (or rather how quickly some things were resolved), I actually think 24 episodes could run quite a few things.
And in terms of Fuuko, if the numerous appearances was too many (wasn't expecting two appearances consecutively), I would think just having the original one would have been okay (that would be episode 17's). Well, it doesn't surprise me that Kyoani even put the inserts since the scenes which were either adjusted, made up, or had lots of people, had the capacity for the insert, even if it's momentum killing (and it's always during "conflict" too.).
But yes, remember, Fuuko comes in during a time of duress or conflict!
And a random reasoning for Kotomi not studying abroad could be ... uh the school year isn't over? (Though I can't remember if the episode that mentions it specifically said like end of Spring to study abroad. If so, then nevermind what I said.)
Hm, though the Kyou and Tomoyo contrast was amusing for the two, three episodes that contained it.
Random Tomoyo thought: Come to think of it, she can cook, she's caring, an attentive student, contains intellect, physically extremely adept, healthy, etc. (Hm maybe that's why there was a game made after her.)
And yes, I do believe Kyou is actually still insertable after this episode. (probably not romantic chase, but the other thing.)
Wow, thinking the full spectrum of routes, you can't fit them in the next 6 episodes at all. If it's just Nagisa (and the other primary issue), then there's no problem.
On the other hand, there's always random things you could wonder like why Sunohara doesn't have a catcher's mask, or why the other baseball team players are fielding (okay the latter makes sense, but probably not the former one, though it's clear as to why that is anyways.).
Random Tomoyo thought: Come to think of it, she can cook, she's caring, an attentive student, contains intellect, physically extremely adept, healthy, etc. (Hm maybe that's why there was a game made after her.)
Tomoyo is, in fact, perfect in every way. I think the point of her character is to contrast with Tomoya, who is imperfect in many ways despite having a similar background.
MeoTwister5
2008-02-15, 06:23
Tomoyo is, in fact, perfect in every way. I think the her point of her character is to contrast with Tomoya, who is imperfect in many ways despite having a similar background.
And being imperfect is, in fact, one of the main factors that drive the main theme of the story.
Anyway looking back, I figured you could still fit an arc there somewhere in the remaining episodes. You could probably put Yukine in there, heck maybe even Kappei could fit there somewhere.
Or maybe not. If the title of the next episode is what it really is, expect something really big to happen when episode 19 hits.
mandarb916
2008-02-15, 06:29
Misae and Koumura's stories were the weakest in the game, and if it goes as I think it does it's a good move on KyoAni not to present their stories anymore since they do little if not nothing to advance the themes of the story.
i would argue the opposite for misae...her and Yukine are critical in understanding one of the major aspects of Clannad (without going into any detail as it primarily belongs in the game thread i suppose).
On another note...this episode was horrible...wrapping up of the twins route was rushed and was too "brutal" for lack of a better term、too many "shuraba" type situations...wasn't expecting the mix of 4 routes (tomoyo/ryou/kyou/nagisa...don't think kotomi really counts) to work all that well, but this was borderline disaster...
3 of 10...even KyoAni couldn't save this situation
Klashikari
2008-02-15, 06:32
On the other hand, there's always random things you could wonder like why Sunohara doesn't have a catcher's mask, or why the other baseball team players are fielding (okay the latter makes sense, but probably not the former one, though it's clear as to why that is anyways.).
Youhei is simply... well, thinking himself as a king of sports.
The fact he doesn't wear a catcher mask simply reflect how he is conceit, and he didn't expect Tomoyo to aim for his face :heh:
On another note...this episode was horrible...wrapping up of the twins route was rushed and was too "brutal" for lack of a better term、too many "shuraba" type situations...wasn't expecting the mix of 4 routes (tomoyo/ryou/kyou/nagisa...don't think kotomi really counts) to work all that well, but this was borderline disaster...
Herrr...? Shuraba?
As for the twins and Tomoyo, it would be hardly possible to keep the statu quo any longer, especially the amount of episodes left. As for brutal... well, Tomoyo's route is kinda not finished yet, while originally, Kyou and Ryou arc IS brutal :heh:
grey_moon
2008-02-15, 06:33
Wow another great episode and I thought that Fuko would even save the day, but alas she just added to his pain :p
Even though I felt so sorry for the other girls, I have to say that during this epi Nagisa and Tomoya looked so good together.
Youhei is godly.
Bankai29
2008-02-15, 06:36
I am really missing the deredereness of Kyou...:(
Damn it KyoAni...why do you always choose the main girl...Kyou/Tomoyo has more fans!!!:mad: :p
A lil' LOL moment on the lunch on Sunday scene. The music in Tennis match was good. Tomoyo was sooo hot this ep.
I knew that the twins cried...because of some screenies and the discussion, but when watching them cry....Oh, it felt really sad for them.
Tendou88
2008-02-15, 06:38
After watching this episode, I want to play the Clannad game
where can i get it ???
So was this the end of kyoh and tomoyo arc ?
they have 6 more episodes to go and it would suck if it is about nagisa only.
toxic_trance
2008-02-15, 06:39
One of the most brilliantly handled harems i have ever seen. The male lead is not weak. he may not be honest with himself, but he definitely doesnt try to mislead other girls either. The Tennis scenes were simply too brilliant. The emotions of the three girls who lose out, the natural comfort of Tomoya when he is with Nagisa..everything was just pin-point accurate. I think this is one of the most beautifully handles harem series ever. If people feel bad for other girl..it has to be of pure fan boyism..u can definitely not blame Tomoya, atleast on the basis of the character he has been projected to be
My only complaint with the series is the continuous Fuko moments.. which is frankly an annoyance. I loved the Fuko arc.. but these appearances are just killin it.
But overall.. a brilliant episode due to the brilliant show casing of the emotions
Klashikari
2008-02-15, 06:44
After watching this episode, I want to play the Clannad game
where can i get it ???
So was this the end of kyoh and tomoyo arc ?
they have 6 more episodes to go and it would suck if it is about nagisa only.
It would be a good idea to wait for CLANNAD FULL VOICE release, which is the 28th february. (Paletweb link (http://www.paletweb.com/login_adult.asp?ItemNo=02050), himeyashop link (http://www.himeyashop.com/product_info.php/products_id/200))
It is very unlikely you will be able to buy the original game, except maybe the PS2 version (Himeyashop link (http://www.himeyashop.com/product_info.php/products_id/2966)).
It is most likely not the end of Tomoyo's route. However, it is very likely that Kyou and Ryou route is over. it doesn't prevent them to be present, that said.
And no, Nagisa's route hardly involve herself alone, as demonstrated by the events here and there.
Also, something I wanted to point out after reading many comments:
It seems the majority believes Ryou and Kyou cried out because of their "loss".
This is not exactly that only. Basically, Ryou apologizes because she couldn't get Tomoya as Kyou wished. This means that Ryou knew that Kyou had feelings for Tomoya, which ultimately gave her guilt (demonstrated in many instances, just like in epiosde 17).
The impact is horrible for Kyou, as she couldn't get tomoya herself, and even her most precious person, her twin sister Ryou couldn't have that happiness, hence why Kyou crumbled despite she was able to withstand it for a while.
This ultimately crushed Ryou as well, as she "failed" for both herself and Kyou.
The crying scene might look "overboard", but it is revealing how much the twins are affected. Not only because they couldn't get Tomoya's heart, but basically how their relationship is very complicated.
mandarb916
2008-02-15, 07:03
while originally, Kyou and Ryou arc IS brutal :heh:
I didn't think the Kyou/Ryou arc was that brutal in the game itself...atleast not to the point where someone breaks all the flags. I suppose the final "sorry" is somewhat true to the game, but the development to that point was non-existant which just killed the ryou/kyou route.
The Tomoyo route isn't over, but like the kyo/ryo route, non-existant romance really kills the beauty of their particular storylines imho...
shuraba in its slang sense more or less means a tense/heated situation involving multiple members of a harem simultaneously. (Kyo/Ryo/Kotomi/Tomoyo in this situation...another prime example would be Kurono/Moka in Rosa+Vamp when they get into a confrontation...a mob actually says "shuraba" in that scene as well).
MeoTwister5
2008-02-15, 07:05
It would be a good idea to wait for CLANNAD FULL VOICE release, which is the 28th february. (Paletweb link (http://www.paletweb.com/login_adult.asp?ItemNo=02050), himeyashop link (http://www.himeyashop.com/product_info.php/products_id/200))
It is very unlikely you will be able to buy the original game, except maybe the PS2 version (Himeyashop link (http://www.himeyashop.com/product_info.php/products_id/2966)).
It is most likely not the end of Tomoyo's route. However, it is very likely that Kyou and Ryou route is over. it doesn't prevent them to be present, that said.
And no, Nagisa's route hardly involve herself alone, as demonstrated by the events here and there.
Also, something I wanted to point out after reading many comments:
It seems the majority believes Ryou and Kyou cried out because of their "loss".
This is not exactly that only. Basically, Ryou apologizes because she couldn't get Tomoya as Kyou wished. This means that Ryou knew that Kyou had feelings for Tomoya, which ultimately gave her guilt (demonstrated in many instances, just like in epiosde 17).
The impact is horrible for Kyou, as she couldn't get tomoya herself, and even her most precious person, her twin sister Ryou couldn't have that happiness, hence why Kyou crumbled despite she was able to withstand it for a while.
This ultimately crushed Ryou as well, as she "failed" for both herself and Kyou.
The crying scene might look "overboard", but it is revealing how much the twins are affected. Not only because they couldn't get Tomoya's heart, but basically how their relationship is very complicated.
Really?
Guess I have to play the Kyou route again lol.
As for the ending of episode 18 being brutal, well... it had to be, and anything less would lessen the emotional impact.
The fact remains that such an ending, and ending resolving with purely one-way emotions, would end like that and thus brutally is because love is the major theme for the story of these girls. You can't expect the easy way out, since Nagisa is obviously canon, and thus the girls would either:
1. Be rejected
2. Realize themselves that Tomoya likes someone else
I'm glad they chose the second way. It adds much more depth to their character when they did indeed realize that Tomoya's heart belongs to someone else, and thus they will have to resolve their unreturned feelings themselves, rather than have Tomoya flat out put them down.
Hypernova
2008-02-15, 07:08
The crying scene might look "overboard", but it is revealing how much the twins are affected. Not only because they couldn't get Tomoya's heart, but basically how their relationship is very complicated.
I actually found the shot after that rather funny with the on looker's expression wondering "What are those two crying for?" Only Tomoyo understand why and she a bit saddened herself.
Youhei is simply... well, thinking himself as a king of sports.
The fact he doesn't wear a catcher mask simply reflect how he is conceit, and he didn't expect Tomoyo to aim for his face :heh:
Very nice point. To add to that I guess the fact that he LIVED through the pitches does make him king of sports in regard to uh ... pain threshold? (I was thinking of the word that implies ... ability to get back up or something, but it's not stamina.) Of course only his character would survive that (as well as the fact that he's the only character that would receive that.)
Bahamut, that was a good point, though I thought it was interesting since because of the perfect polar contrast with similar background of family problems, it's like hm, how did she lose? (Though of course the obvious reason is because Tomoya wanted a family perspective which Nagisa grants the best ... or whatever the reason. Episode 19 would probably show one primary aspect.). The only thing I can come up with is that in terms of preferences it's like Tomoyo -> Tomoya, while it's Tomoya -> Nagisa. Because of the directions, you see episode 18's occurrence, it's like the only way to opportunity cost Tomoyo reasonably (or the simple fact that Nagisa was "first", which works in contrast to Tomoyo, but not to the Fujibayashi twins.)
Well, I guess the twins' contrast is fine, but since there weren't that many twins' events (okay so there weren't few, and repeating lunches might be too much, not to mention the situation was different too), the conflict of twins doesn't seem that apparent (though it is easy to feel sadness when you think about the efforts going into vain. Tomoyo's case wasn't as much vain so there's less pain ... or rather that's either due to later familiarity or the fact that the anime did not display the real struggle of getting to be president, which is fine, but it also made the election result very, very obvious.)
I think the twins' crying scene might look overboard because if you were a fictional character that was spectating the match, you would see two twin girls crying for a reason you would have no idea why of. So while the reasoning completely makes sense, the fact that they cried like that completely in a tennis match can make it seem a little out of place. (okay maybe main characters Kotomi, Sunohara, and Tomoyo probably notice, but I highly doubt the others that looked at them have any idea.) I guess the match was cancelled after too (I also guess that's probably why you don't usually have so many spectators on a tennis sideline!). Poor tennis player, accidentally hits Nagisa but gets blocked off by Tomoya in helping who he just injured, and also loses to Tomoyo in a match, and of course, nobody cares. XD
I still find the most interesting part the brief sequences that used Miyazawa from episodes 15 - 18 (er more like 15 and 17. Heck, add in episode 3 too.)
It's like from watching 15 - 18 I get this feeling... (ignoring other intermediary things. Gym storage suggestion still amusing.)
"Hm, the drama club needs an advisor. Let's get Koumura."
"Argh, occupied by choir club and they won't give it up."
"Dilemma to get Koumura continues. What to do? Let's see Miyazawa."
"'Try basketball', she says."
"Alright, basketball! Win! Nishina impressed!"
"Okay we can share Koumura ... argh student council won't allow it!"
"Dilemma to get Koumura continues. What to do? Let's see Miyazawa."
"'Elections are coming up. A change will do', she says."
"Ah Tomoyo is running! Get her elected!"
"Get her out of trouble! Use sports to win like last time!"
"Elected! Drama club can manifest!"
Added note: I wouldn't be surprised at all if a scene between episodes 19 - 24 has something Miyazawa correlated that denotes advice that helps Tomoya out from a dilemma. But since the Drama Club barrier is gone, there's also not much reason to input Miyazawa again.
Although Tomoya is clearly the initiator, it's like, if he didn't bother seeing Miyazawa, it's like oh no, the idea wouldn't manifest so soon! It's so amusing how such a minour character can be so subtly relevant. Of course the success was brought from everyone's support and all but there must be an idea (and I doubt basketball would have been their own idea.)
Then again I tend to forget that the basketball idea wasn't from Miyazawa, but rather Sunohara's originally. (Also that the elections also originally had nothing to do with her either.) Ironically the thing that was originally there, the gym storage, was the least relevant in terms of reviving the drama club lol! (Hm that's probably why Kyoani merged it so that she the gives advice character.)
On another note, if the twins are technical members of the drama club along with Kotomi as well, the club isn't ... that small. Maybe the solution to Nagisa's drama in her route will have the support of everyone (not just Tomoya)! XD Then Tomoyo's point about "family" truly manifests! XD XD XD (Though it wouldn't be surprising if that did occur, since it would seem reasonable enough.)
Though I still think Kyou still could net drama, but probably self dilemma only (it's shown that Tomoyo could probably move on, and Ryou has that ... other factor that can compensate.), unless that song was to imply that the romance drama was over and the original dilemma from the first episode is to be resolved next.
anselfir
2008-02-15, 07:35
yea, by plot set up the chosen girl is endowed with qualities that pertain solely to her chosenness and none of the interesting character traits we value in this type of shows. nice going japan.
Klashikari
2008-02-15, 07:40
yea, by plot set up the chosen girl is endowed with qualities that pertain solely to her chosenness and none of the interesting character traits we value in this type of shows. nice going japan.Your point looks rather "nice going japan, you didn't pick MY girl" than really saying "they didn't take the most interesting character".
Again, retconing the development done so far in this series is like destroying a whole plot foolishly.
*sigh* I don't expect Nagisa being the most popular of the cast (as this can be applied to any girl), but i wish this forum won't turn like an harem series trend, with "MY girl!" discussions...
Very beautiful episode, personally I give it 11/10!
+ Tomoyo showing more of her soft side was touching, Tomoya's reaction (or not-reaction) spoke volumes.
+ Poor Kyou, she always tried to stand back for Ryou, and now this. Some very beautiful shots of her in the beginning, too.
+ The breakfast-scene was hilarious.
+ Fuko's appearance was really funny this time.
+ Seeing Tomoya and Nagisa finally together made my heart jump with joy.
+ Everyone's reaction on realizing that Tomoya loves Nagisa was touching and genuine.
Another thing random I'm wondering about. During the "tennis break", after conversing with Tomoyo, what WAS Tomoya looking at?
I asked myself this after I noticed this and I have absolutely no idea. Although it has no relevance to anything in particular, I really do wonder. XD
Klashikari
2008-02-15, 08:08
Youhei...? The cheering girls? :heh:
There is no possible way for me to give this episode anything but a 10. This by far was the episode I enjoyed the most since episode 9.
Tomoyo as a swimmer is just too Kawaii to put in words. As a former swimmer myself, I would have rather seen that match than the tennis match, but oh well. The baseball match with Sunohara was just great. :)
Interesting change with the Takafumi suicide attempt, making it a jump instead of running into traffic... Guess Kyoani wanted to say "Cars aren't as dangerous as you think!"
I don't really know why, but Kyou and Ryou have just been drawn spectacularly ever since the change to summer uniforms. It must be some kind of shading or something, but they just look surreal right now.
EXCELLENT use of "Over" from the Sorrando CD. It's my least favorite song from that CD, but they just really made it work in the anime.
Tomoyo is school president! :) Personally, I wish they could have made the announcement a little more dramatic, but this still works.
Nagisa is back! Yay!
And finally, that food scene was just classic. They finally gave Kotomi a good role in these arcs, and the Fuuko appearence wasn't actually that bad this episode. Starfish cake, LOL...
So, yeah. I cannot give this episode anything less than a 10, so I'm giving it a 10.
Now, for a dreaded 2 week wait. Ah well. Hopefully this is just preperation for a season long wait for season 2 (Hopefully...). :)
The baseball match was indeed great with the moment with Sunohara's censored face. I wouldn't wish to be at his place XD
I didn't play the game so I saw Takafumi for the first time and I was supriced that Tomoyo has got a brother. Her flashback was very sad but I am happy that he didn't die.
The food scene was just awesome and I think that Okazaki is too lucky :P but I wouldn't try the "meals" which Fuko prepeared :P
Big LOL for this scene :D
And now the rating.
Just like Chrissie I also can't give to this episode anything less than 10 so big 10 for episode 18 :)
http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/5672/nagisatomoyadl9.th.png (http://img505.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nagisatomoyadl9.png)
Similar to one of my favorite events in the visual novel (A scene I thought will not be animated), the anime version is actually better in my opinion, much more emotion.
HayashiTakara
2008-02-15, 08:47
I am officially displeased with Clannad...
Tomoyo's arc was extremely lackluster and anti-climatic... she had potential...
They rushed the crap out of Kyou's arc.... It was painfully obvious that Kyou's heart was breaking without even a fight... She wanted Tomoya, but because she loved her sister she wanted her to have him instead.... this could've been an excellent story... I felt like they ruined it...
Ugh... Nagisa... how I loathed thee.... Your story better be good enough to make me turn my opinion around about you. It better not be extremely superficial with magical whatnots...
velocity7
2008-02-15, 08:55
I am officially displeased with Clannad...
Tomoyo's arc was extremely lackluster and anti-climatic... she had potential...
They rushed the crap out of Kyou's arc.... It was painfully obvious that Kyou's heart was breaking without even a fight... She wanted Tomoya, but because she loved her sister she wanted her to have him instead.... this could've been an excellent story... I felt like they ruined it...
Ugh... Nagisa... how I loathed thee.... Your story better be good enough to make me turn my opinion around about you. It better not be extremely superficial with magical whatnots...
This post is an example of someone who mistook CLANNAD for its dating sim disguise. ;)
Angela Sanctisstessa
2008-02-15, 09:08
sounds more like an obvious toll to me
Epi 18 is really well done, but Kyou and Ryou crying shattered my heart
MeoTwister5
2008-02-15, 09:08
Clannad may look like one but it's the farthest thing from a dating sim game.
And I'd rather have a Clannad type game any day.
oompa loompa
2008-02-15, 09:14
There is no possible way for me to give this episode anything but a 10. This by far was the episode I enjoyed the most since episode 9.
Tomoyo as a swimmer is just too Kawaii to put in words. As a former swimmer myself, I would have rather seen that match than the tennis match, but oh well. The baseball match with Sunohara was just great. :)
Interesting change with the Takafumi suicide attempt, making it a jump instead of running into traffic... Guess Kyoani wanted to say "Cars aren't as dangerous as you think!"
I don't really know why, but Kyou and Ryou have just been drawn spectacularly ever since the change to summer uniforms. It must be some kind of shading or something, but they just look surreal right now.
EXCELLENT use of "Over" from the Sorrando CD. It's my least favorite song from that CD, but they just really made it work in the anime.
Tomoyo is school president! :) Personally, I wish they could have made the announcement a little more dramatic, but this still works.
Nagisa is back! Yay!
And finally, that food scene was just classic. They finally gave Kotomi a good role in these arcs, and the Fuuko appearence wasn't actually that bad this episode. Starfish cake, LOL...
So, yeah. I cannot give this episode anything less than a 10, so I'm giving it a 10.
Now, for a dreaded 2 week wait. Ah well. Hopefully this is just preperation for a season long wait for season 2 (Hopefully...). :)
i agree, while i wouldnt give it a 10, definetly an 8 or a 9 because it was rushed. the episode was good really. its a sign of things to come
It's definitely a heck of a deceiving cover =/
HayashiTakara
2008-02-15, 09:25
As I recall, IT IS a dating sim... but the story had to have one clear winner, and it was obvious from the very beginning that it was Nagisa, but so far I find the development and characteristics of the "lesser" characters a lot more appealing than Nagisa. They've successfully managed to make me feel attached to the other girls, i.e. Kyou and Kotomi, than Nagisa... Nagisa is just kinda there, at least thats how it felt...
I'll still watch it to the end, I don't like leaving a series part way, well unless its stupid long like One Piece that has no real direction, or slow as molasses developments.
velocity7
2008-02-15, 09:26
Trust me, when it comes to After Story, it's no dating sim.
Same with Tomoyo After, too.
damn Tomoya making Ryou&Kyou cry ....:upset:
Nagisa arc better have some compelling shit to tell.
Also, what's with so much emphasis on Fuko that everyone's giving here. She might be annoying, but her appearances aren't really focal points of the episodes so it really doesn't affect the situation whether she appears or not. At least she's not appearing inside storerooms or on tennis courts.
DragoonKain3
2008-02-15, 09:41
Really people, it was Nagisa or bust. Air/Kanon wasn't at all different, what made people think that Kyo-Ani would do differently here?
DISCLAIMER: I have no knowledge of the game. That said, on to the actual episode...
No doubt, this episode is a 10/10 for me. Usually, I lay off on actually rating episodes, but when I feel a series deserves it, I give it it's due. (Due note that I didn't rate the previous eps, despite the storage room scene)
Why? Because of how they contrast the reactions of the twins. They did some in the previous episodes, but its even more profound here.
Before the fortune telling scene, Kyou's in a very good mood, while Ryou is just looking 'shy'. In the food scene, Ryou is just surprised, while Kyou was freaking out lol. Tennis scene, Kyou can't bring herself to watch the game, while Ryou looks so calm despite things are getting good between the main couple.
The killer though is the different reactions when Nagisa was being carried off. It didn't seem to phaze Ryou, as she was looking at them all the time when they were walking away. Didn't look too much different from the looks Kotomi were giving as well. But Kyou? Absolute shock, where she stood frozen with mouth agape.
And in the end, it was Kyou who said the 'I knew it all along' line, a line in which the pursuer (who it's suppposed to be Ryou in this case) was suppose to say. Also it was Ryou who apologizes despite it was supposedly Kyou who has failed bringing them together. And Ryou only started crying after Kyou broke down. More than anything, it seemed like Ryou's the one giving support to her twin, rather than the other way around.
So it leads to the question, was it really Kyou trying to set up Ryou, or has it always been the other way around after all?
Do note that Ryou is perfectly fine when she's alone with Tomoya, be it in the classroom or in the bus stop in this episode. Looks like she only blushes when Kyou is around trying to push them together, or she's forcing herself to be close to Tomoya such as in the food scene. I mean, even when she has her hands together with Tomoya, she looks very unhappy during the fortune telling scene. And it looks she had a look of relief when it came out as friends.
Maybe the reason why she blushes is because she's doing these embarassing things with a guy she doesn't really like that way, but she has to act like it because she's trying to get Kyou and Tomoya to spend more time with each other. I mean, more than anyone Ryou would know that Kyou would deny having any feelings for Tomoya, and so trying to set them up together the normal way wouldn't work at all. As such, she pretends to like Tomoya so there's an excuse for Kyou to hang out with him.
While I don't know for sure if that's the case, this eps gets a major plus for making me think that there might be more than what meets the eye between the twins. Ryou having a crush on Tomoya being a possible red herring definitely has piqued my intellect, and as such, instant 10/10.
But what's for sure though, Kyou feels much more than her twin for Tomoya.
On to Kotomi though... how the heck did she know where Tomoya lives? AFAIK, she never has been to his house before, or been shown where it is. If she has known all along, you'd think she would've visited him much earlier when she needed support, no? Lol, plot hole for the sake of comedy? XD
And seeing Tomoyo in jogging pants, you'd think everyone else would use the same instead of the bloomers. >_>
Still, Youhei > all. Mosaic'ed face FTW! ^^
At least she's not appearing inside storerooms
Now you've got me on some ideas... :heh:
Tomoya x Kyou are about to get etchi in the storeroom, but neither of them has a condom...damn...but: Fuko appears and gives them one...oh wait...why is it star-shaped????
If anyone wants to draw that, feel free to do so. :D
So it leads to the question, was it really Kyou trying to set up Ryou, or has it always been the other way around after all?I'm sure Ryou liked him. She probably mentioned it to Kyou before it happened the other way around. Kyou does seems like she had a lot more going on in her for Tomoya but she still put her sister first. Ryou saw that and finally apologized for it in the end.
I'm a fan of Kyou and Tomoyo, and the only thing I wanna do right now is create an Anti-Nagisa FC.
No, really. The way KyoAni make this is too good, the emotion is so true. I know that, that's why it's so sad for Kyou, Ryou knew that Kyou likes Tomoya didn't she? That's why she said "Sorry" to Kyou all the time. Now then...now then they know that Tomoya only see Nagisa and then...
Dunno how but I can feel Tomoyo's sadness when she found out Nagisa is the president of drama club. Maybe she know that because of Nagisa, Tomoya was trying to help her?
Sadly enough, there will always be fans that will be completely irrational when the guy does end up with a certain character, despite evidence to the contray.
Always is the case in nearly everything so-called show of this nature (shuffle, love hina, kanon, etc...)
I hope it doesn't turn into a fan war (with the anti- character thing and the overload of death pictures (cause this particular board can so without that kind of childish thing))
I won't create that anyway, because that's not Nagisa's fault isn't it?
But now I just hate her and it can't be helped...
In honour of this episode I finally made an account here...
This seriously was the best Clannad episode so far...
Now, normally I don't cry when seeing sad things, despite being a girl... But seeing both Kyou and Ryou slowly break down like that, I sobbed... :_; There goes my reputation.
I'm glad Tomoyo didn't start weeping or I'd have exploded from the emotional overload (the way she handled things seemed more in-character too)... But yay, Nagisa is back! Even though I thought she was a bit boring at first, she's grown on me (strangely, the exact same thing happened when playing the game). Seeing Tomoya's reaction to her return and her getting hurt makes it hard for me to believe people want him to pick Kyou or Tomoyo instead. >.>
I hope this is the last Fuuko appearance, seriously. I felt this one was perfectly timed and in place, but much more of this is really going to get on my nerves, no matter how much I love her.
I wonder if Kotomi will have a role to play in Ryou's and Kyou's realisation that Tomoya is obviously in love with Nagisa (though the dimwit doesn't know it himself), she seemed to be aware of how they felt before they did it themselves.
...That and I want her to have more screentime.
Oh, and, I'm certain Kyou's arc isn't close to being over yet; there's a scene from the OP we haven't seen yet which is really important to her route. So don't worry Kyou-fans, she's not fully out yet! ^^
Heh, Kyou didn't do anything much in the last 18 eps right? So obviously she will has her own screens.
I think Kotomi accepted Tomoya like her best friend or some kind of brother, and it's fine.
To begin with I don't like Nagisa as Kyou, then Tomoyo (don't ask me why -__-) So it's natural if I say something selfish...forgive me Nagisa's fans ^^"
Btw, I prefer this anime-Tomoya, he's much cooler than game-Tomoya :hah:
grey_moon
2008-02-15, 10:30
I wonder if Ryou got him would they have ended up in a 3 some with Kyou?
I wonder if Ryou got him would they have ended up in a 3 some with Kyou?
Do I sense twincest fantasies here?
Deathscyther
2008-02-15, 10:59
Great episode. It felt a bit rushed at times, but I still liked it very much ^_^
The Tomoyo parts were handled very well and I liked the 'bento' battle in the beginning of the episode (Fuko pwns, although she shouldn't appear too often =P)
And the Tomoya/Nagisa moments in the end were great. Tomoya blushing in the theater club when seeing nagisa again made me smile, and when he got so protective on her during the tennis-incident I smiled even more. Everyone (now even Kyou, Ryou and Tomoyo) can see that Tomoya and Nagisa like each other.
I like Kyou very much and it broke my heart to see her cry. But we knew that it was coming, so I was prepared.
Yukinokesshou
2008-02-15, 11:02
I think Tomoyo's moment of quiet realisation was more poignant than the Fujibayashi twins' outburst.
Romance aside, I want Tomoyo to stay on. Inferring what I can from game synopses, there's going to be a lot of drama from now on :p We could do with more of the warmth that Tomoyo exudes. I hope she'll be there to support Tomoya and Nagisa... maybe she'll be involved in some reconciliation between Tomoya and his father? (given her family history, it's something she understands)
ApostleOfGod
2008-02-15, 11:16
Dunno how but I can feel Tomoyo's sadness when she found out Nagisa is the president of drama club. Maybe she know that because of Nagisa, Tomoya was trying to help her?
That's exactly it. That's why once she found out, she said, "Oh, so is that how it is..." or something along that line.
Wow.. CLANNAD's episodes seem to be getting better each week :p. But yeah, I do feel a sudden leap here and there. I think the beginning was moderate paced in comparison to this fast-paced ep (or these recent ones should I say). Now, I have a feeling that all the girls are going to end up helping Tomoya after getting mad at him? Lol. I hope CLANNAD does well with the ending, whether it be tragic or happy.
Leo_Otaku
2008-02-15, 11:27
Misae and Koumura's stories were the weakest in the game, and if it goes as I think it does it's a good move on KyoAni not to present their stories anymore since they do little if not nothing to advance the themes of the story.
Actually I beg to differ Misae's I think is better than Tomoyo's original by a long shot >.> Her story was one of the stronger side characters that was better than some of the main cast.
Adn everyone keep your mouths shut about Nagisa, go bitch in her forum. And enough of Shana talk...
Takuto19
2008-02-15, 11:30
10/10
Wow this episode was great, it looks like the've gone and finished up with both Tomoyos and Kyous arc in one episode, not sure but the way it played out it seems that way.
Correct me if im wrong but Tomoyo and Fujibayashi Twins both realised that Tomoya is with Nagisa and the've both gone and accepted that, hence why they were crying at the end, i'm not entirely sure but this is what i suspect.
Looking forward to the next episode, shame it's in 2 weeks though.
Kinny Riddle
2008-02-15, 11:35
As I recall, IT IS a dating sim... but the story had to have one clear winner, and it was obvious from the very beginning that it was Nagisa, but so far I find the development and characteristics of the "lesser" characters a lot more appealing than Nagisa.
If it is a dating sim, explain Koumura and Kappei's endings please. You saying this is a yaoi sim involving old men and traps as well? :cool:
They've successfully managed to make me feel attached to the other girls, i.e. Kyou and Kotomi, than Nagisa... Nagisa is just kinda there, at least thats how it felt...
I'll still watch it to the end, I don't like leaving a series part way, well unless its stupid long like One Piece that has no real direction, or slow as molasses developments.
Oh, don't you worry. Nagisa's "AfterStory" is very much the "essence" of the whole Clannad story. The other characters were simply there for the scenario writers to flesh out, yet all their stories in the end supplement Nagisa's story. All I can say is it has something to do with the "Illusionary World".
So it leads to the question, was it really Kyou trying to set up Ryou, or has it always been the other way around after all?
Ryou knew all along about her sister's feelings for Tomoya, and was feeling both grateful and apologetic that she would step aside just for Ryou, hence the apology and Kyou breaking apart.
OTOH, I'm not so sure we've seen the end of Kyou's story just yet.
In the OP, we see the sequence of the five girls being introduced, in the background, we see certain scenes from their storylines. Judging from the fact that Fuuko, Kotomi and even Tomoyo now have their scenes fully animated, I still think Kyo-Ani may still be able to stick in some more of Kyou’s story even after Tomoya went for Nagisa.
Already we have the Kyou playing basketball, the other sub-scenes in the OP include Kyou towing her bike toward the sunset while walking with Tomoya. Maybe having her and her sister come to terms with moving on while supporting Tomoya and Nagisa's happiness and their yet-to-come ordeals.
velocity7
2008-02-15, 11:46
Kinny Riddle brings up some interesting points.
Despite the fact that Tomoyo, Kyou, and Ryou have both come to realization, and that Tomoya still hasn't confessed to Nagisa, I wouldn't count out...
The possibility that we'll still get world splits at some point despite what will happen next episode. Those who've seen the MOON PHASE summaries will know.
Cai Calamigarde
2008-02-15, 11:47
i was thinking lately... :uhoh:
if Nagisa wins, then would that mean we won't get "Tomoyo after" from KyoAni? :(
MeoTwister5
2008-02-15, 11:50
I seriously doubt they can pull off a world split at this point without confusing the hell out of people.:(
Ascaloth
2008-02-15, 11:52
Blog article is up:
[RIUVA] CLANNAD (TV), Episode 18 (http://www.riuva.com/?p=978)
I can't believe how bloody long I took to write this one...
Leo_Otaku
2008-02-15, 11:54
i was thinking lately... :uhoh:
if Nagisa wins, then would that mean we won't get "Tomoyo after" from KyoAni? :(
That uis a different game and a different universe >.>
bladeofdarkness
2008-02-15, 12:01
ever since i started watching this show one question was always on my mind
how do you handle the love triangle of this story
in kanon once a girls arc was done she went missing and you almost never see them again
but here after kotomi's arc she was still there (fukko keeps poping up too)
and unlike other shows there is no way around it
kyou,ryou,tomoyo,and nagisa all love tomoya
its not the little kid thing you had with fukko and not the old childhood friend you had with kotomi
the breakfest scene clearly showed us how absord it has become in that "tense" whos food are you going to eat first way that was far to close to an averege harem show for my liking
all four are clearly romanticly in love with tomoya
but since we know that there could only be one winner that also means that tomoya would have to make a choice
confrant the other three girls,look them in the eye and as nicely and kindly as possible : break their hearts (kyou's and ryou's response this ep was less then what it was likly to be in a one on one talk)
given how well the girls are characterized and how much of a fan base each has that would also make tomoya very unlikeble to many of the viewers even if it was clear from the start that he'll end up with nagisa
so kyo ani solved it by never having any of the girls confrant tomoya about how they feel and so none of the girls are really rejected
they just realize they dont really have a chance and give up (its still a sad thing,but it could have been worse)
i dont know if this is a good thing or not since it means kyo ani chickend out on us by not showing the rejection (i think EF did it really well)
but still its the only way they can keep all the characters in the show (dont think being told to their face that he doesnt love them would enable most of the girls to still be around tomoya)
Owaranai Destiny
2008-02-15, 12:10
Episode 18 Thoughts:
Well, it's done and there's that, but watching the episode now makes me feel all the more sorrier for the twins and Tomoyo.
Besides that, the episode was mostly about Tomoyo, I suppose, since it reveals the main reason why she was going for the elections and in the end it all played out to the theme of the show itself: Family.
I have to say it was quite a nice episode, but felt as though Tomoyo's story could have been developed more. In a way, the anime felt as though it cheapened her value in the story, but since I haven't played the game yet...*shrugs*
Her backstory was interesting, but as many have already stated, did not have as much emotional impact as Fuuko's or even Kotomi's did. It was somewhat touching, but unlike the Kotomi monologue coupled with voiceovers and sound effects as we were seeing it in her mind, it was as though I was simply watching it from a third-person perspective. Simply put, though what Takafumi did was in a sense powerful, I couldn't feel so much for him or Tomoyo...Or even the Sakagami family. :(
As for Ryou, it would seem as though she lost all hope during the tennis match, but Kyou was obviously the more affected of the twins. Sad...But the KyoAni shouldn't be given a beating just because they have to get the story to move on and even consider something else other than the 'True Path'. Besides, the 'True Path' usually has more flavour and more content to be used, so I'll be keeping most of my complaints quiet. :p
The humor was pretty entertaining as usual, and coupled with the fact that Tomoyo appears in various states of sporting outfits made the episode extremely enjoyable until the final part...Not that it wasn't nice to see Nagisa. I had to struggle to keep my laughter down when Tomoyo didn't realise that she had won that baseball 'match', having such a good time pounding Youhei's face in a new and (as quoted from the sports babe herself) 'refreshing' way. :heh:
Another point to note was the typical scenario where a group of girls argued with each other while 'persuading' (Not sure if that was what Kyou was doing...:heh: ) the male protagonist to eat their own. Typical? Yes. Entertaining? DEFINITELY. Especially with the reactions from Tomoya. :heh:
From the looks of it, Kyou and Ryou are still going to see a piece of action, and I have a feeling even Tomoyo might too, though with a much smaller role. Still, it's nice to see Nagisa back again (Tomoya the Delinquent blushing = win) and the story moving on nicely.
EDIT: I'm pretty sure what Tomoyo said should confim how she actually feels about Tomoya. Is it just me, or did the scene with the twins crying seem a little...abrupt?
Well, I think Kotomi keep going on with Tomoya like a best friend, there are no love or jealous right?
Actually, like above, all the girls who actually love Tomoya right now is Nagisa, Ryou, Kyou (Tomoyo's feeling is not clear yet)
Owaranai Destiny
2008-02-15, 12:23
Argh...I knew I should have included this in my previous post, but just thought of them a while ago.
-How's becoming the student council president going to stop the Sakura trees from getting chopped down? Moreover, who was the 'they' Tomoyo was talking about?
-Nagisa's comeback was a little abrupt, but I suppose that was because it felt as though a lot of things happened in a short time, while in reality it had already been quite a few days.
For final thoughts, I guess as an anime original episode, it was pretty good. Just wasn't satisfying to the point where I would just shut up once it's done with.
velocity7
2008-02-15, 12:25
EDIT: I'm pretty sure what Tomoyo said should confim how she actually feels about Tomoya. Is it just me, or did the scene with the twins crying seem a little...abrupt?
That should be spoiler-tagged.
And:
If you think it was abrupt, then you might not have been taking the hints from Kyou and Ryou throughout this episode at all. :cool:
Mirrinus
2008-02-15, 12:26
I'm quite surprised they changed the way Tomoyo's brother Takafumi's method for his "suicide".
In the visual novel, he jumped into a running car and nearly got killed, I don't know why Kyo-Ani changed it into him jumping off a bridge into a river, which though still potentially fatal, would have less impact than getting run down by a car.
This was just so Kaioshin-dono wouldn't go off on his tirade about "the most common plot device in Key games". ^_^
Klashikari
2008-02-15, 12:26
Argh...I knew I should have included this in my previous post, but just thought of them a while ago.
-How's becoming the student council president going to stop the Sakura trees from getting chopped down? Moreover, who was the 'they' Tomoyo was talking about?
The student council president has lots of charges and responsibilities, along with proper connection with the teachers and directions.
Chances that it is the school project to do that are high, the voice of the council president might give a big edge on it, especially with arguments and petitions. It isn't exactly a sure bet, but it is better than pleading as a normal student without much power.
-Nagisa's comeback was a little abrupt, but I suppose that was because it felt as though a lot of things happened in a short time, while in reality it had already been quite a few days.
It has been like 5-7 days that Nagisa is sick so ^^"
This episode was wow, just completely WOW. Started out sweet and funny and ended with heartache but yet still heart warming.
LOL...so much rivalry in this episode. Kyou X Tomoyo combo was intense. Was surprising to see Tomoyo had such a bad past. But man she seems to be good at everything she does, except for expressing herself (her speeches seem to lack enthusiasm).
Tomoyo becomes a house wife.....her cuteness went through the roof in this episode.
Finally our main heroine is back. It is clear about Tomoya's feelings now and everyone knows it. Good ending but the other girls crying was sad..... Tomoya unconsciously is making his feelings open, FINALLY! Poor Kyou, felt so bad for her....she began to slowly crumble, bet everything was falling apart in her. She fought and supported so much....I really liked her character! It's hard to watch a character you liek go through that, actually I like most of the girls....
Next episode looks interesting, can't wait!
If The Title Correct
(new Lifestyle--new Life)
It Looks Like About Tomoya And His Father
Owaranai Destiny
2008-02-15, 12:44
That should be spoiler-tagged.
And:
If you think it was abrupt, then you might not have been taking the hints from Kyou and Ryou throughout this episode at all. :cool:
Noted, though I'm still not quite sure why they would be spoiler-tagged. If it doesn't bother you too much, it would be nice if you could tell me why. ;)
Well, I was referring to the action, not the reason as to why they suddenly opened their floodgates. I'm well aware that tears CAN flow out suddenly without you being able to stop them, though, especially when that sense of "despair" turns into a reality where one has to face the facts.
The student council president has lots of charges and responsibilities, along with proper connection with the teachers and directions.
Chances that it is the school project to do that are high, the voice of the council president might give a big edge on it, especially with arguments and petitions. It isn't exactly a sure bet, but it is better than pleading as a normal student without much power.
That makes sense. As an afterthought, was it mentioned why the school wanted to mow down part of Nature's beauty like that? If it's a game spoiler, I'll shut up right now. :heh:
It has been like 5-7 days that Nagisa is sick so ^^"
I was under the impression it had been a week, but changed my sentence to 'quite a few days' since I wasn't sure how long Tomoya was suspended, and without getting the facts wrong, of course. ;)
Blog article is up:
[RIUVA] CLANNAD (TV), Episode 18 (http://www.riuva.com/?p=978)
I can't believe how bloody long I took to write this one...
Oh, good, I didn't miss it. I thought that you had posted it somewhere in the many pages before this (Strange that there are this many posts for this episode... Seems to be more than usual...)
10.
I don't understand the comments here complaining about Fuko and Nagisa.
As I see it Fuko is being used used in two ways throughout Clannad: 1) comedic-relief to cut any sort of tension/drama on purpose, Key wrote it that way and put it into their game, 2) to not let her character die-off/be forgotten like so many Makotos/Sayuris//etc. To support this second assertion I point to Kotomi not being done away with after her arc ended.
As for Nagisa, she is the main heroine and is the best compliment to [I]this Tomoya's and story's route. The series from the first episode has been foreshadowing to these two hitting it off. And I for one welcome this outcome with open arms.
Blog article is up:
[RIUVA] CLANNAD (TV), Episode 18 (http://www.riuva.com/?p=978)
I can't believe how bloody long I took to write this one...
Ascaloth does a great job at analyzing the lead up to Nagisa's pairing with Tomoya by this episode alone. Good read.
mandarb916
2008-02-15, 13:11
10.
I don't understand the comments here complaining about Fuko and Nagisa.
As I see it Fuko is being used used in two ways throughout Clannad: 2) to not let her character die-off/be forgotten like so many Makotos/Sayuris/[insert other girl]/etc. To support this second assertion I point to Kotomi not being done away with after her arc ended.
uh...if you look at the OP, Fuuko's also part of the non-school sequence...i think that in and of itself should tell you that her character isn't going to die-off/be forgotten.
Mirrinus
2008-02-15, 13:16
K, so I saw the sub, and I must say, this was my favorite episode in a long while. My respect for Tomoyo shot way up, especially when she realized Tomoya's feelings for Nagisa on her own and took it with such grace.
As for Fuuko's cameo, I actually found that to be by far the funniest one so far. I think I might understand the complaints about it if I had felt the scene was serious...but if the show was trying to be serious by having everyone bring food to Tomoya, then it certainly failed to convey that expression to me. I was laughing from the moment everyone showed up, and just couldn't take the whole setup seriously at all. I mean, if that scene was suppose to be as tense and SERIOUS BUSINESS like everyone says...then Botan's presence was completely out of place. But as it is, the scene just felt way too comical, and so Fuuko's appearance was merely icing on the cake (pun totally intended).
Also, concerning Kyou and Ryou at the end, I'm curious to know why exactly they're crying. Are they crying because they realize that Tomoya has rejected them...or are they crying because they see now that Tomoya has always had his heart on Nagisa, and what they've been doing all this time was not welcome at all?
Excuse me, but I can't join the celebrating party of 8+ ratings. In my opinion, this episode was an unmitigated disaster, and it cast some serious doubts on whether THIS was planned. If it was, even worse. I had to go with 4 - poor - and that's only because the technical merits of the show are still high.
Why was it a disaster? Because of the pacing.
We've been dragged through 6 episodes of Fuko. We've been led through 4 episodes of Kotomi. And now, we rocket through _both_ the Tomoyo and Kyou/Ryou arc in barely 3 episodes? Hello? How about a trace of BALANCE here?
It also doesn't help that I feel an urge to scream whenever Fuko tortures the screen. Sorry, but if you plan to introduce some tension and irritation, the LAST we need is another barrel of Fuko stupidity. Please put her in a coma again before she manages to do the same to _me_.
U_U
This episode felt like someone had decided around episode 16 that the show would have to end after 24 episodes, and that we had to rush through the rest to make it. And I wouldn't be surprised if this guess was close to the truth. In any case I can say that the time allocation for Clannad has been terribly off, and by now, for me, the question if Kanon or Clannad was the better conversion, has been decided already.
Very disappointing. Sorry.
To be honest, the blow was expected. However,
If KyoAni is true to the material of the game and honors the time-warping aspect of the Illusionary World, we may get to see Kyou and Tomoyo's routes in full form.
Trust me, we're no where near the end. It's only the tip of the iceberg. And I'll likely repeat this line again at episode 24. :p
True. I am looking forward to After Story as well as that which comes with it. :)
There is more yet to come, but the end of this season is coming (Forgive me for not being clear). Who knows when the next season will come. :)
Heh heh. Strong feelings are afly. Time for myself to get back to lurking. :)
velocity7
2008-02-15, 13:31
Excuse me, but I can't join the celebrating party of 8+ ratings. In my opinion, this episode was an unmitigated disaster, and it cast some serious doubts on whether THIS was planned. If it was, even worse. I had to go with 4 - poor - and that's only because the technical merits of the show are still high.
Why was it a disaster? Because of the pacing.
We've been dragged through 6 episodes of Fuko. We've been led through 4 episodes of Kotomi. And now, we rocket through _both_ the Tomoyo and Kyou/Ryou arc in barely 3 episodes? Hello? How about a trace of BALANCE here?
It also doesn't help that I feel an urge to scream whenever Fuko tortures the screen. Sorry, but if you plan to introduce some tension and irritation, the LAST we need is another barrel of Fuko stupidity. Please put her in a coma again before she manages to do the same to _me_.
U_U
This episode felt like someone had decided around episode 16 that the show would have to end after 24 episodes, and that we had to rush through the rest to make it. And I wouldn't be surprised if this guess was close to the truth. In any case I can say that the time allocation for Clannad has been terribly off, and by now, for me, the question if Kanon or Clannad was the better conversion, has been decided already.
Very disappointing. Sorry.
I was already aware this would happen, and as I discussed with some others before, Kyou/Ryou, Tomoyo, and Nagisa arcs are all mutually exclusive. Kyou/Ryou's requires too much romance, and Tomoyo's the same (especially for Tomoyo After). If Tomoya were to pursue anyone other than Nagisa, it would not be a "main universe".
For the time being, Tomoyo and Kyou/Ryou will have to take the Nayuki kickout. And that said, even if they do cover Nagisa's route, there is no room to finish the entire CLANNAD storyline (particularly After Story, which is pivotal) within 24 episodes.
Mirrinus
2008-02-15, 13:33
Uh...balance? What are you talking about? From what I understand, both Tomoyo's and Kyou's arcs were already much shorter than Fuuko's to begin with, and to top it all off, it's practically impossible to animate a good chunk of either arc without making Tomoya look like a two-timing jerk on the level of School Days' Makoto.
So what is this precious "balance" worth? Does it have some innate value that makes it worth promoting by sacrificing story consistancy, prior character development, or the core relationship of the series?
It rather does irritate me when people idolize a single aspect of storytelling at the expense of everything that has come before it. It's a similar pet peeve to when people hark about "originality".
HayashiTakara
2008-02-15, 13:56
There is always a hidden "yaoi" , "yuri" ending in every dating sim, as far as I know.
The pacing is terrible, people got entrapped by bits and pieces and fail to see it as a whole. Really, Nagisa so far is extremely underdeveloped as the character that is simply there, and for no reason became Tomoya's object of affection.
Shana-tan
2008-02-15, 13:59
I'm a Kyou fan, and the problem isn't that Nagisa's going to win so much as that they're going to all the trouble of building up Kyou's feelings when we all fucking well know that her heart's going to be broken. After getting screwed over screen time-wise in her own arc seeing her get screwed like this in the anime is rather frustrating. If Kyou had been just friends with him like they did with Kotomi and Fuuko, or if they had even kept it to the "yeah, I kinda have a crush on him but it's not going to destroy me to see him with someone else" level like most losing harem women. But it seems like KyoAni wants to make her suffer in the name of LOL DRAMA.
Mirrinus
2008-02-15, 14:11
Nagisa is underdeveloped? I thought she got more development than Fuuko herself in Fuuko's arc. Come on, that whole "we make good parents" thing wasn't just for show...
Nagisa's been one of the most developed characters yet, IMHO. We've seen her motives, her determination, her devotion to her friends, her compassion, her family ties, and how Tomoya has been changing her through his encouragement and hard work for the club.
Keep in mind that I don't know the game. And that I have no interest how truthful a "conversion" might be. I can only give you my honest feedback about this episode, and this is DISAPPOINTMENT. Sorry for that, but if you don't like it, TOO BAD. I'm judging it as an anime, without preconceived ideas.
Usually it's quite normal to quickly realize which characters you're going to like. I knew from the get-go that I'd like Kyou and Tomoyo the most. I knew that Fuko was the typical Key moeblob I would have to patiently work through before I was going to reach the "better girls" (I assume you can tell that I am NOT looking for moeblobs. I realize that many others will disagree - but _I_ have had enough of them). Long long looooooooooooooong episodes with only gradual changes. Too long imho. Too little happened in too much time.
Then Kotomi. I'm only semi-interested, because we have one more girl which is "not normal" and also fairly airheaded at times. But other than that, things were alright, and I enjoyed the 4 eps it took - that felt just right.
Then we get a bit more Kyou amongst others in the awesome Basketball ep. Also, the last episode 17 was extremely enjoyable aswell, particularly with the storage room scene, but also with the Tomoyo mix.
And today, everything got nixed. Seemingly, their respective arcs were ended before they really began.
Frankly, I felt cheated by that. It's like eating the crusts of a pizza first, savoring the taste of the middle, just to find out that there's nothing left there.
That's what I call "unbalanced". And the fact that "it didn't fit with the main arc" seriously is no comfort to me. It may mean that Clannad is much less suited for conversion than Kanon (which worked very well IMHO), but I feel shortchanged.
*shrug*
Deathscyther
2008-02-15, 14:28
Jeez, I can't believe the complaining about Nagisa >_>
Firstly, love is unpredictable. Tomoya can't help it that he likes Nagisa. He's simply attracted to her. The animators planned this of course, when they chose to go with her as the main arc in the story, but it's not a pairing that comes out of the nowhere. Tomoya and Nagisa already had a lot of development during the first episodes and the Fuuko-arc. The Tomoya x Nagisa relationship has been developped better than Tomoya x all the other girls in my opinon.
Tomoya already chose Nagisa, before the other girls even came into the picture. It's as simple as that. The other girls didn't even stand a chance. They were too late. His heart has already been stolen.
Nagisa as a person hasn't had as much development as other characters like Kotomi for example, but that's because Nagisa's arc isn't over yet and Kotomi's is over for the most part. The anime isn't over yet, remember? There'll be plenty of Nagisa in the coming episodes. And probably some Kyou and Tomoyo as well.
Just give her character a break. Liking other girls more and wanting to see them have more screentime and wanting to see Tomaya ending up with one of the other girls doesn't mean that you should hate Nagisa.
And for the animators making Kyou and Ryou go through all this...well it's simple. They just wanted to show that both of them had feelings for Tomoya. (Because they might use this later on) He chose Nagisa though, so obviously something like this had to happen.
There is more yet to come, but the end of this season is coming (Forgive me for not being clear). Who knows when the next season will come.
sorry to say that but I disagree with you
I dont think we will have season 2 from clannad
most anime from this company only one season and i dont clannad will be except
IF THE events continue at this speed (like ep 16-17-18) i dont think we need to second season
sorry IF I annoy YOU
Klashikari
2008-02-15, 14:35
We've been dragged through 6 episodes of Fuko. We've been led through 4 episodes of Kotomi. And now, we rocket through _both_ the Tomoyo and Kyou/Ryou arc in barely 3 episodes? Hello? How about a trace of BALANCE here?
Balance is hardly a "issue" in case of Clannad, because it is not similar to kanon in terms of events.
Fuuko is solely based on a struggled which is long, but prevent her to do anything afterwards. Aside of her random and whimsical apparition, she didn't have much aside of her routes.
Meanwhile, Tomoyo and the Fujibayashi Twins were roaming around on a casual basis, to reflect the school aspect of the show. The fact their "routes" didn't take 6 episodes is irrelevant in term of story telling as it would be way too draggy to expand, until they go nonsensical with the conflict with tomoya's feelings.
The irony is that Tomoya's feelings are bit "late". If that event didn't happen now, it would be very problematic. Hence the "brutal" but natural way to break the statu quo.
Again, number of episodes hardly reflect the "importance" of a characters
sorry to say that but I disagree with you
I dont think we will have season 2 from clannad
most anime from this company only one season and i dont clannad will be except
IF THE events continue at this speed (like ep 16-17-18) i dont think we need to second season
sorry IF I annoy YOU
This speed is still way too slow to bring up AS. Completely. There is a obvious need for a second season, otherwise, it will be a disaster.
sorry to say that but I disagree with you
I dont think we will have season 2 from clannad
most anime from this company only one season and i dont clannad will be except
IF THE events continue at this speed (like ep 16-17-18) i dont think we need to second season
I think he is basing his second season opinion on the fact that the future episode summaries we have got from moonphase seem to indicate that even this pace won't be enough to get past a certain point in the game, leaving a whole story chunk left for a hypothetical second season to be based on.
edit: or what Klashikari said...
Not to mention that CLANNAD may very well go the unconventional path in terms of balance and classical story distribution, and not in the way many of you are thinking. (though this is just my guess). Withold any balance judgments for now, and wait for the very end for the series. ;)
Kaisos Erranon
2008-02-15, 14:38
Kaisos: You are now my new best friend.
Aww, thanks.
Mirrinus
2008-02-15, 14:40
If that's all it is, then yeah: Clannad's just not meant to make a straight conversion like that. We all knew that from the beginning. There were dozens of pages written up about it in the Clannad discussion topic before it even started airing, because many game vets realized it was virtually impossible to faithfully adapt each arc without some sort of Higurashi-ish reset. I certainly can't fault Kyoto Animation for not satisfying everyone with one of the most difficult adaptations ever attempted.
It just bugs me that so many people are making demands based primarily on their own preconceived dogmas as to what Key adaptations should be like. Because Kanon had separately defined character arcs and characters disappearing after each arc, Clannad was subjected to the same expectations. Yet from the beginning, I thought Clannad was a different beast altogether; the main romance was developing from the very first scene, and the character development present for each arc wasn't just focused on the girl of the arc, but on the other characters as well, especially Tomoya and Nagisa. People seemed to expect another Kanon, instead of Clannad itself. Which I found rather ironic considering all the complaints of "This is too much like Kanon" weeks ago...
As for me, I'm still enjoying it just because it somehow reminds me of my favorite English Romanticism novel by Thomas Hardy...
Well, this episode produced mixed feelings from me.
I also couldn't help but notice this was like 3 episodes packed into one. The plus side of it is that despite this, it was done extremely well. KyoAni didn't waste a second on filler. The way they showed how Tomoya only had eyes for Nagisa was really well done; And the emotion conveyed by the Fujibayashi twins as well as the sad smile by Tomoyo in the end really touched me... I feel for them.
Of course the downside is that I couldn't help but say to myself "That's it?" in relation to Kyou/Ryou arc. Maybe I'm biased because I'm comparing screentime too much, but the amount of time that was devoted to their arc alone was really lacking... I felt they could've done sooo much more with it. As for Tomoyo, it did end with a つずく, so I don't think she's done yet. (I hope!)
It was a really well designed episode, but it left me with a bitter taste in my mind I couldn't ignore...
.... on a lighter note that bento scene was hilarious! (Kotomi's innocence is so cute :love:, and that was Fuuko's best random appearance for sure :))
Main Char / Supporting / Minor[TH]
Okazaki Tomoya
Sakagami Tomoyo
Fujibayashi Ryou
Fujibayashi Kyou
Sunohara Youhei
Furukawa Nagisa
Ichinose Kotomi
Sakagami Takafumi
Botan
Ibuki Fuuko
Okazaki Naoyuki14:23
13:46
7:55
7:07
5:02
2:39
2:26
1:42
0:58
0:43
0:23
*Tomoyo almost beat Tomoya, lol.
Main Char / Supporting / Minor
Okazaki Tomoya
Furukawa Nagisa
Ibuki Fuuko
Ichinose Kotomi
Fujibayashi Kyou
Sunohara Youhei
Fujibayashi Ryou
Sakagami Tomoyo
Furukawa Sanae
Ibuki Kouko
Furukawa Akio
Kotomi's Guardian
Sunohara Mei
"Mysterious World"
Miyazawa Yukine
Botan
Yoshino Yuuske
Sugisaka
Nishina Rie
Sagara Misae
Ichinose Koutarou
Ichinose Mizue
Mitsui
Toshio Koumura
Sakagami Takafumi
Okazaki Naoyuki
Kanako
5:43:29
3:16:59
1:27:01
1:23:32
1:21:07
1:20:25
1:09:19
43:07
19:29
16:44
14:27
9:39
9:20
7:46
6:22
6:22
4:58
4:40
4:38
3:59
3:49
3:47
2:35
2:34
1:42
1:37
0:18
Solafighter
2008-02-15, 16:01
Fantastic episode. :)
10/10.
Poor Kyou. :rolleyes:
KholdStare
2008-02-15, 16:30
This is the first episode I've given a 10/10 for a very long time and now Clannad is the sole anime I'm following that has an overall 9/10 rating. It is, by no doubt, the best of KyoAni's work, even in comparison to SHnY.* I can see how some people will comment on how fast the anime is progressing and how there are way too many information inside this episode, but all I will say is the pacing was perfect for the drama and suspense.
Also, this is my first approved appearance of Fuko in this whole series. The mood was quite funny, and Fuko's "comic relief" actually fits this time, instead of appearing in the middle of some...serious scenes for no reason. Starfish cakes ftw.
*EDIT: Just kidding.
OceanBlue
2008-02-15, 16:35
I'm actually finding it difficult to understand why the twins were crying. I understand more from reading here, but if I have to read explanations out-of-context to understand why that happened, I'm worried about how the two were handled.
Also, I'd have to agree with the others about how Tomoyo, Kyou, and Ryou were handled. The pacing was much too quick. I'm aware that their arcs required a conflict with Nagisa's, and that wouldn't happen, but Kyou and Ryou didn't have any buildup at all until the climax [no, the bento scene didn't suddenly make the climax alright, and the other scenes weren't sufficient to build the plot up to where the climax would have seemed natural].
If it wasn't handled well, I would have hated this episode. But it was handled well in my opinion.
But wow! The contrast between the music and the scene was amazing! And it actually worked too; I felt like I just worked hard to accomplish something, and find that it was torn down overnight. What song was that?
Edit: Found my answer.
*Mourns for Kyou.*
Fennecus
2008-02-15, 16:48
The end was especially hard to watch, I couldn't help staying a little depressed after I saw that.
9/10.
lol the baseball game, was hilarious... sunohara's censored face after 21234234324 hits xD!
and the food scene too XD! fuko helping as always (:
OceanBlue
2008-02-15, 16:57
The end was especially hard to watch, I couldn't help staying a little depressed after I saw that.
9/10.
[Warning: Partial/Complete Spam]
I know what you mean. I feel like I want to curl up in a ball or something.
I now have increased interest in the game.
So... This episode was so good I kind of rewatched a bunch of scenes...
I think the most interesting scenes are at the tennis match. Looking at it, you have 5 people you could call potential lovers there, being Tomoyo, Kyou, Ryou, Nagisa, and Kotomi.
Tomoyo realizes that Tomoya loves Nagisa when he introduced her to her. Her response "Ah, I see how it is. Nevermind." shows her personality just too clearly. She's coolheaded and can easily accept things that are hard for others to accept.
Nagisa doesn't really have a responce, as she never found out that Tomoya loves her...
Kyou's response is tearful and unhappy. She hates defeat, and is arrogant and persistant.
Ryou's response is delayed, and she doesn't bawl until her sister starts. This really comes to show that Ryou is very clingy and dependent.
And Kotomi still has no idea of anything going on. She just thinks of Tomoya as a friend. :p
Hence, Kyoani REALLY did a great job with this scene. As far as I know, it's not in the game like this at all. So, it's anime original. And normally anime original scenes tend to take characters out of character. But here they really managed to keep ever character true to her traits, making the scene seem so real...
I still wish they would have animated that swimming race. :(
Main Char / Supporting / Minor[TH]
Okazaki Tomoya
Sakagami Tomoyo
Fujibayashi Ryou
Fujibayashi Kyou
Sunohara Youhei
Furukawa Nagisa
Ichinose Kotomi
Sakagami Takafumi
Botan
Ibuki Fuuko
Okazaki Naoyuki14:23
13:46
7:55
7:07
5:02
2:39
2:26
1:42
0:58
0:43
0:23
*Tomoyo almost beat Tomoya, lol.
Main Char / Supporting / Minor
Okazaki Tomoya
Furukawa Nagisa
Ibuki Fuuko
Ichinose Kotomi
Fujibayashi Kyou
Sunohara Youhei
Fujibayashi Ryou
Sakagami Tomoyo
Furukawa Sanae
Ibuki Kouko
Furukawa Akio
Kotomi's Guardian
Sunohara Mei
"Mysterious World"
Miyazawa Yukine
Botan
Yoshino Yuuske
Sugisaka
Nishina Rie
Sagara Misae
Ichinose Koutarou
Ichinose Mizue
Mitsui
Toshio Koumura
Sakagami Takafumi
Okazaki Naoyuki
Kanako
5:43:29
3:16:59
1:27:01
1:23:32
1:21:07
1:20:25
1:09:19
43:07
19:29
16:44
14:27
9:39
9:20
7:46
6:22
6:22
4:58
4:40
4:38
3:59
3:49
3:47
2:35
2:34
1:42
1:37
0:18
Is it me, or is Fuuko appearance shorter and shorter each time it happens? I fear where this is going...
Fennecus
2008-02-15, 17:29
[Warning: Partial/Complete Spam]
I know what you mean. I feel like I want to curl up in a ball or something.
I now have increased interest in the game.
Although no one's fault in particular, Tomoya's relationship to Nagisa is already being built on the pains of others. And it's always sad to watch things unfurl like that.
Kyou and Tomoyo have much better endings in the game.
ApostleOfGod
2008-02-15, 17:48
Although no one's fault in particular, Tomoya's relationship to Nagisa is already being built on the pains of others. And it's always sad to watch things unfurl like that.
Kyou and Tomoyo have much better endings in the game.
Well, in the game, aren't there multiple endings, like specific cases where Okazaki ends up with people like Kyou or Tomoyo as opposed to the only one choice that CLANNAD can make happen (obviously Nagisa)>?
It is getting more "dramatic" perhaps, but that's what makes it all better. Now I'm just eager to watch more :p. Also, I'm starting to think that rather than these parts right now being fast paced, it's more so everything before being a bit slow paced. Although I generally began to agree with people saying this is getting to be rushed, now that I think about it, no, not really lol. It's simply that the show got the viewers to get used to the soft easy paced early stages and then things really starting to unravel at these climax points / falling acts. Everything else before was simply developing for this grande finale, or simply there for more interest IMO.
Nevertheless, CLANNAD just gets better every time~
*finally watched the episode himself*
Hmm... well the time finally came. The most difficult section to transition of the game, the section that was actually going to test the most KyoAni transition capabilities and the point that I actually feared the most. That is, the point where they had to prune the Fujibayashi's sisters and Tomoyo's route.
Obviously this is something that the game players had been dreading over since the series was ever announced. CLANNAD is not a game that permits a modular approach, and does not allows a harem or pimp type of protagonist at all. It is a series that shows a couple taking some of the most important steps in their life and go beyond it. As such, it was going to be sour but some people needed to get the short end of the stick...
... and it was done in a pretty good way in my opinion. I already knew this was going to happen. i had been wondering about how the execution was going to be played out. And it was masterful. Yes, people in the show are hurt because of this and they do not try to hide it. Moreover, they develop on it. They gave a credible closure to one of the most difficult branch point in the game, and the protagonist enters with decision and no doubt the main path, and they give plenty of chance for the losers to remain in the game and play their parts out, in whatever way it is possible.
Thank you KyoAni, now the only fear left in my hearth is how are you going to do the gazillions of story left into so little episodes. :p
mikesince83
2008-02-15, 17:51
Well this was certainly a painful episode for the Kyou and Tomoyo fans. It was inevitable, but I didn't expect to feel for the characters as much as I did especially after spending such a short time with each of them.
It was agonizingly difficult to watch Kyou since it was clear she had been suppressing feelings for Tomoya in an attempt to help Ryou. Finally in the last few episodes she begins to recognize her true affection for him only to end up in this heart wrenching moment where her tears seal the realization that it's too late.
faust123
2008-02-15, 18:03
Sad to see Kyou go, but I think they executed it fairly well. Now I feel like the storage room scene was a "hey guys we're sorry but you know what we have to do. Take this peace offering fan boys".
Still quite a few episodes to go so I am interested in seeing what they do from here, especially in terms of "other" character involvement (ie everyone except tomoya+nagisa).
the dream world hasn't showed up in awhile either
Is it me, or is Fuuko appearance shorter and shorter each time it happens? I fear where this is going...
...to end her spontaneous appearances, hope it turns out like that. i liked this ep, lots of info on tomoyo's history. damn, isnt there any sports she doesnt excel at?? :D 10/10 rating.
The 18th episode more focused on Tomoyo. I felt sorry to Kyou because Tomoya seems to 'ignore' her. In last five minutes, it focused on Nagisa especially in the tennis match scene. I saw lots of people hate Nagisa for making both Kyou and Ryou cry but I disagree. Actually it was Tomoyo which makes both of them cry but I don't blame him. He just have no idea that Kyou have crush on him. The music in the scene where Kyou and Ryou crying is also out of place.
FlareKnight
2008-02-15, 19:50
Well finally got around to checking this one out. Maybe it was a gut feeling that kept me from even watching 17 until I had gotten 18 downloaded. You did know this was coming at some point. It was clear early the this was going to be Nagisa's show. So the closer other girls got the closer you got to their fall.
Feel especially bad for Kyou. It's not like I didn't know she was going to get hurt and probably why I wasn't looking forward to when her arc got brought into it. Can't really blame Nagisa for being who she is or being the one chosen for the role she is playing. Really hope her not being one of my favourite characters is more to do with just how her character strikes me than any bias.
At least its gotten me interesting in the game and the arcs of Tomoyo and Kyou.
The music in the scene where Kyou and Ryou crying is also out of place.
I would put it as an oxymoron of sorts though, and the cheerfulness of the music further heightened the drama of the situation, at least from my POV.
The_TempesT
2008-02-15, 20:54
Well it finally came to pass. I knew this would happen eventually as I could see the signs early on (like everyone) but its still to bad to see Tomoyo and Kyou get cut out of the romance as I do like them better then Nagisa, but I don't hate her.
It would be really cool if KyoAni made some sort of alternate side episodes that included a pairing with Kyou or Tomoyo. I would honestly not be surprised considering how large their fan base is. They made a after game based solely on Tomoyo/Tomoya just because of how many people like her character and her story in the game, so I wouldn't be surprised if something like that did happen, but it probably won't.
Somebody pointed out (but im to lazy to quote) that there is quite alot of girls with Nagisa's personality that end up winning in the end when it comes to multiple girls. I didn't think about this until that was pointed out and I am kind of annoyed by this truth. It would definitely be nice if somebody like Tomoyo or Kyou would win in this sort of story.
In the end though I still love Clannad (as I'm sure all of us do) and even if the Heroin isn't my favorite I will still enjoy the story.
KholdStare
2008-02-15, 20:59
Well this was certainly a painful episode for the Kyou and Tomoyo fans. It was inevitable, but I didn't expect to feel for the characters as much as I did especially after spending such a short time with each of them.
It was agonizingly difficult to watch Kyou since it was clear she had been suppressing feelings for Tomoya in an attempt to help Ryou. Finally in the last few episodes she begins to recognize her true affection for him only to end up in this heart wrenching moment where her tears seal the realization that it's too late.
Excellent summary of this episode. I felt like saying that.
5/10.
I can't stand this episode.
What they did to Kyou, Ryou, and Tomoyo was so utterly pointless and obviously they are just screwed for time.
Spectacular_Insanity
2008-02-15, 21:03
Wow, I'm surprised at how fast they switch from comedy to sadness in this show. It kinda reminds me of FMA; laughing one minute, crying the next.
It was all very sad, but love polygons always end up with lots of people sad. Which is kind of sad in and of itself. When Ryou and Kyou started crying, it made me tear up, too. Good thing it wasn't shown for very long, or I would have been seriously crying as well. T_T
Great episode, I really enjoyed it. 10/10.
Klashikari
2008-02-15, 21:06
What they did to Kyou, Ryou, and Tomoyo was so utterly pointless and obviously they are just screwed for time.
In what way it is pointless? Their route involves romance, especially Kyou/Ryou.
How would you epxect the scripters to drag the statu quo considering how far the series is, let alone, with a definite answer in tomoya's feelins like... more than half season ago?
It is a wonder why a character who "suffer" immediately equate to "bad" or offense. I mean: i would like to see a perfect "winning for everyone formula" for once, as I see many complains, but almost nothing to give as a proper "placeholder" working better. I'm not pretending the choice was perfect and the script is or so, but it is quite tiresome to mix "character league" and the "plot".
Hmm... i would understand about people complaining about the technical merits or the storytelling style for this episode... maybe even the seemingly fast pace, but I really cannot understand people complaninig about the plot direction. How would you presented it yourself? Would you have changed the plot altogether? Was there a way to make it with the current story path, yet present the resolution in a different way? Because personally I've been thinking for a while and I hadn't thought of a good way this resolution could have been presented without doing what KyoAni did. And even then they came with a better presentation than what I had thought of :p
Ascaloth
2008-02-15, 21:07
All this continuing discussion about the shafting of Kyou's and Tomoyo's route has got me thinking of one thing;
If we didn't know that Kyou and Tomoyo actually had their own routes that were cut out by KyoAni's handling, what would we have thought of this episode?
I could say a lot on this score...but you know what, I'll just STFU instead and hear what you guys have to say. In fact, if I hear enough discussion on this score, it all goes up on my next RIUVA article (which I didn't know so many people read. >_>)
Uraaagh! It was fairly clear from the beginning that Nagisa route was the path they were ultimately following, but it's still painful to see decisive blow dealt to the other heroines I was rooting for. Sigh.
I hope they quickly start tying in the odd magicky other-world stuff they've been hinting at. Dedicated episodes to Nagisa and Tomoya--as with Fuuko and Kotomi before--would quickly sap my remaining interest. On with the supernatural stuff!
--oh wait, it's only episode 18. That means...potentially three or four more episodes revolving around Nagisa before they finally start playing the supernatural card. Ah, rats. It's always tough when a character driven anime shafts your favored characters and focuses on other ones.
mist2123
2008-02-15, 21:26
i voted 10/10. too bad i wont see a tomoyo ending:(
iamandragon
2008-02-15, 21:32
Ending of two routes together in one episode--and done so perfectly! Once again KyoAni showed us that they're not KyoAni for nothing...The way they end it, and the perfectness they ended it completely surprised me--I was always wondering how they'd end the twin's route from the very beginning...
And that new insert song is very good...can't wait till it's released...
All this continuing discussion about the shafting of Kyou's and Tomoyo's route has got me thinking of one thing;
If we didn't know that Kyou and Tomoyo actually had their own routes that were cut out by KyoAni's handling, what would we have thought of this episode?
I could say a lot on this score...but you know what, I'll just STFU instead and hear what you guys have to say. In fact, if I hear enough discussion on this score, it all goes up on my next RIUVA article (which I didn't know so many people read. >_>)
thats an interesting fact you said, yea i spoiled myself by playing the game long before the anime even air, and i could say i can get over with kyou and tomoyo shafted for the sake nagisa (because i very well know how good nagisa after story is and i will even feel lamer if they pull tomoyo and kyou ending which basically will butcher the after story)
but for those who don't play the game i think this episode will be a disappointment because those 2 (tomoyo and kyou) got shafted, but look at bright side, will you even favour tomoya if he pull average harem main hero? where he blushes when he's with tomoyo and kyou and add nagisa there, where he can't pick one of the three? maybe it sounded interesting but yea clannad isn't a harem story (then again this coming from me a game player where even in the game there is no harem like this episode where tomoya get to taste like what, 4 bento?, however maybe large number of audience is not a game player and think that this is a kind of harem show)
then again lets think what will happen if they pull tomoyo and kyou ending (focus on kyou ending where well tomoya hooked up with kyou)
then what? the end? leaving all those illusionary world thing like some unresolved thing? ignoring nagisa? and more importantly girls will still be shafted (either tomoyo or kyou)or would you like for both of them to well end up with tomoya? clannad will end up as cheap harem anime then. sure maybe that what some people want, but well sorry harem isn't the main thing in clannad. and clannad =/= the kind of romance as in kimikiss or true tears where well the main hero lead confused with 2 or more girls, ever see tomoya got confused between choosing nagisa over other girls? no he grip nagisa firm, unlike in kimikiss or true tears therefore don't even compare it or think clannad == kimikiss or true tears
while the way kyoani resolve the romance isn't exactly good (how in the heck kyou just give up like that, while she gave such fight when tomoyo is on the move?) but still its better than leaving it unresolved and getting dragged later on
yea kyou and tomoyo got larger fanbase than nagisa (guess which route i play first when i play clannad :heh: yea its kyou's)but their story is kinda pale in comparison to nagisa's after story, just believe that they shafted those character for a better story later on, and yea it is that good especially for those drama whore :heh: but i'm crossing my finger with only 6 episode left...
just my 5 cent
King Lycan
2008-02-15, 21:40
This ep was kinda goo so i gave it an 9
tomoyo was awesome with hitting sunohara with the baseball :heh:
KholdStare
2008-02-15, 21:40
Wow, I'm surprised at how fast they switch from comedy to sadness in this show. It kinda reminds me of FMA; laughing one minute, crying the next.
I've stated this before, but Clannad is a master of this. One moment I would be so immersed in drama and the next moment I'd burst out laughing (not the FUKO APPEARS ZOMG kind of way). This is why Clannad is truly great in my opinion.
HayashiTakara
2008-02-15, 21:47
We all know Nagisa was going to win, even before the anime aired. The whole tennis scene had the opposite affect on me, it didn't make me want to cry, it made me go "WTF?!", they got shafted hardcore, I wanted to see how Kyou and Ryou first met Tomoya, and how those feelings first came into fruition, not to mention, I want to see Kyou telling her sister that she is indeed in love with Tomoya, and then gets shot down, causing the pain to be more "real?", it could be something like that... and then I won't feel like Kyou got shafted due to lack of time.
I don't even want to get started on Tomoyo >_>.....
I have to agree that girls with Kyou's personality never wins... and that bothers me to no end >_>.... Nagisa is a walking cliche of goodie goodness.... At least in Kanon we got a heroine that was a huge departure from the norm... A clumsy, sort of slow, funny loli, with a catch phrase... "Uguu"
We all know Nagisa was going to win, even before the anime aired.
therefore try to think what ascaloth said, what if you didn't know nagisa will win? will you still be disappointed or even more crushed by this development :heh: , most likely the later :heh: and yea nagisa don't have those two charm, even i myself pick kyou scenario first when playing the game because well she has the personality that i like, but that opinion changed when i play the after story part..that was something else :)
many people spoiled themselves of clannad story, even most of them know whose daughter that is in opening :heh: but yea thats what happen to anime that adapt from popular game (meaning lots of people saying how good the game is and lost of people spoil themselves either from forum or wiki), man i miss Air, where i got into the emotion roller coaster ride without knowing what happen next.
iamandragon
2008-02-15, 22:01
Hang on a moment--who on earth gave this episode a 1 out of 10!? Show yourself!
mist2123
2008-02-15, 22:05
Hang on a moment--who on earth gave this episode a 1 out of 10!? Show yourself!
its either he made a mistake or just hate the episode:confused:
woo imandragon calm down there lol, grey just said it was painful to see the blow to other heroines which i think therefore the 1 (painful) score, that pooling got to change from painful to extremely bad, many people still vote for some episode when they feel painful not in a bad way, though i don't know in grey matter :heh:
BakaOnna
2008-02-15, 22:07
Urgh, no offense to anyone, but the rampant fanboyism going in this thread is rathering revolting.
Heck, Nagisa is not even my favorite girl or character and the compatability between her and Tomoya are fairly obvious, especially after 17 episodes. Anyone who was expecting Tomoya to end up with anyone else or saying how Nagisa should die because of Tomoya's choice is simply blinded by their bias and fanboyism.
Having never played the game, I thought the episode was exellent, though the transitions felt a bit... off at some parts. The whole, 3 days later thing in a span of 2 or so minutes in the anime made me go, 'what?' :heh: But I did enjoy the tennis match scenes.
Willcrusher
2008-02-15, 22:12
Not a bad way to end the lesser routes. But since the animation quality dropped a bit IMO, I'll give it a 8.
So my prediction is somewhat accurate. 4-5 remaining for the true story. ^_^
Personally the way the anime was done, having Tomoyo fall for Tomoya wouldn't have made sense since she her role was mainly a secondary one until the completion of Fuko and Kotomi arcs. I give props for making this ep. somewhat Tomoyo-centric but her goal isn't a guy, but rather the preservation of the Sakura trees and indirectly helping Tomoya. In so, her goals are achieved at the end, and hence her arc is over.
Comparing the Fujibayashi twins and RL, as much as it is nice having girls so obsessed with you (Kyou and Ryou), their passion ultimately fails and rightly so. I hate it when a girl likes a guy, but is too hesitant or afraid to act on her feelings (Ryou). Therefore, should the guy eventually go for another girl etc, tough for her. She had her chances and didn't take advantage of them. How many times did Ryou have the chance to mingle with Tomoya but shyness kept her from doing so?
Kyou doesn't deserve Tomoya because she's trying to help her sister get Tomoya and supressing her own feelings. That alone deserves respect because it takes alot to step aside and let someone else have a shot, more so if that person is your sister. However, as commendable as her decision is, she too likes Tomoya. Now if Clannad was similar to other anime, Tomoya can have all the girls at the end, but of course we know better. Down the line, Kyou would probably cause greater suffering for Ryou if she won Tomoya.
Sidestepping a bit, props must be given to Kotomi, as she doesn't go head over heels for Tomoya. She had her spotlight during her arc, and realized that she and Tomoya are nothing more than friends. Loved her "Huh?" expression when Kyou and Ryou were crying.
Nagisa, as people have said, represents the ideal. Therefore, she must be the chosen girl at the end. However, ideal and reality doesn't mix in this world, so IMO, the practical ending would be a Kotomi x Tomoyo pairing. They have a past together, they were/are friends. If you can't have the ideal match, then a pairing of friends and opposites is the next best thing. Genius + Slacker.
Barring the eventual pairings based on the Clannad game, it's too bad Miyazawa Yukine and Sunohara Youhei don't pair up. Sadly, Yukine is probably the only girl that is compatible with Sunohara, least I think so.
Owaranai Destiny
2008-02-15, 22:14
there's a reason why fanboyism or even fangirlism is rampant. If you consider the personalities of Tomoyo and Kyou as well as Ryou, and the amount of fan-made images of them coming up, I'd say it's inevitable. :heh:
In addition, people like to see something different. I wouldn't say Nagisa is boring, but she doesn't really have a personality that will make the generic viewer go 'wow, what an interesting character'. Maybe I'm over-generalising, but everyone's entitled to their own opinions. Of course, no one should condone ranting and flaming of other characters and pairings just because their favorite ones were 'shafted'.
Sadly, Yukine is probably the only girl that is compatible with Sunohara, least I think so.
i love sunohara and would probably loved it if he got yukine :heh: , *imagine yukine cursing sunohara when he flirts with other girls*
Bonta Kun
2008-02-15, 22:22
well not much to say that hasn't already been said, so I'll just go with my only unique thought atm.
before I never thought of a TomoyaXYouhei but then I seen the pics in the image thread so now after seeing ep.18 I'll root for a TomoyaXYouhei ending:p
TomoyaXYouhei FTW!!!
well the thing is, which one of them is a trap? :heh: i actually fall for sunohara's female version. not that it matter though if you want the yaoi ending lol :D
iamandragon
2008-02-15, 22:26
Still...no matter how much you hate this episode you'll have to give it at least three extra points for ending three girl's route, and one more extra point for the new insert song!
BakaOnna
2008-02-15, 22:33
there's a reason why fanboyism or even fangirlism is rampant. If you consider the personalities of Tomoyo and Kyou as well as Ryou, and the amount of fan-made images of them coming up, I'd say it's inevitable. :heh:
In addition, people like to see something different. I wouldn't say Nagisa is boring, but she doesn't really have a personality that will make the generic viewer go 'wow, what an interesting character'. Maybe I'm over-generalising, but everyone's entitled to their own opinions. Of course, no one should condone ranting and flaming of other characters and pairings just because their favorite ones were 'shafted'.
I don't know. Maybe I need to watch more harem series, because all the ones I watch, the guy chooses either the childhood friend or (in most cases) the Tsundere. Yuck. I immensely dislike the female tsundere archetype. :uhoh:
germanturkey
2008-02-15, 22:45
bah, not my favorite ep by a long shot. it made my favorite character cry and my second favorite character feel obsolete. we all knew from the beginning that they'd end up pairing those two up, but i didn't expect them to do it at ep 18. that means one of two things. 1) they're going to draw out the nagisa arc 8 eps, or 2) they're going to animate the time jump.
i normally exclusively cheer for the main pairing of characters, but Nagisa is by far my least favorite character in the show. oh well, at least i still have a sliver of hope in them animating Tomoyo After..
it was an average ep. 6/10
HayashiTakara
2008-02-15, 22:51
There is no way that you can't tell Nagisa is going to win, I never even heard of Clannad until the trailer came out. And from the teasers and opening scene, I knew already she was going to win.
Sorrow-K
2008-02-15, 22:54
This has been such a strange thread to read through. It's been filled with some absolute extremes. On the one hand, some of the level of discussion in this thread has been simply atrocious. Shipping, rage, baseless hate for certain characters simply because they're favourite girl didn't "win". I mean, c'mon. I question whether people making such posts understand the meaning behind this show at all. It's the level of posting I expect to see in the Shuffle! forums, not here. On the other hand there have been some fantastic and inciteful posts as well. Analyses of the characters and relationships, objective and thoughtful criticisms. It's a pity that some of these posts are lost within some of the crap that's been spouted in this thread.
----
I can understand where Mentar is coming from, even if I wouldn't say that the flaw has crippled this series to the extent that he states. The pacing of this ep really wasn't super and, as Ascaloth said, I also think it could have been spread out over two episodes. Tomoyo's backstory, for example, was just far too interesting to get as little screentime as it did. But while I would have liked to have seen more of it, the question I ask myself is, what more could they have shown? They showed as much as they needed to to demonstrate the point, and if the slowed the pacing down too much, it would have come off as unnecessarily drawn out. I guess I'd have liked to have seen more interaction between Tomoyo and her brother, for example, but even if they did do this we still would have arrived at the same conclusion with regards to her and her goal of protecting the trees. So, yes, I sympathize with those that say it did feel compressed, since I had the same feeling while watching it, but looking back on it, I just can't really see how they could have made it feel not so compressed without either adding redundant things to the to the sequence, or compromising other things in the story. (Ascaloth brings up a good point in his blog post, though... since when did student council president have any jurisdiction over what happens outside of the school. I thought to myself at the time that maybe she wants to use the position as a better vantage point from which to lobby the local council, but, hmmm, seems kind of weak. Guess it isn't all that important.)
The Fujibayashi sister relationship is a fascinating one. I think that particular story came to its inevitable conclusion. I wish they were a little more explicit with Kyou's reaction, though. I mean, yes, this was all KyoAni needed to show to communicate Kyou's state of mind and the realization she had (although I think she knew for a long time, this just forced her to finally admit it to herself). But her thoughts at this moment in time would have just been so interesting. I wanted to know just exactly what was going through her mind. A snapshot of a character study at the very moment where her heart was broken. I'm a little disappointed that they passed up on that.
I also think the scene would have been a lot more powerful if they didn't break out into tears in public. I always find crying in public inappropriate. Ok, funerals and weddings are a different matter (break ups as well, maybe, but that depends on the circumstances). But, if you're so overwhelmed by emotion at a certain point, don't you generally try to be alone before bursting out into tears? I think it would have been a much more powerful moment if one or both ran somewhere to be alone, and then started crying. The people around them who saw them crying probably thought they were weirdos. I mean, who cries at a tennis match. Other than Roger Federer, but I'd say he's perfectly entitled to.
The underlying themes and meanings are what make this such a strong story. They compensate for some of the questionable pacing, which actually hasn't been all that much of a problem until this episode where the inevitability of the conflict between the tempered pacing we saw before this episode and the limit of 24 episodes came to a head. Sacrifices to the pacing needed to be made, and they managed to avoid them up until now (for better or for worse). Oh well. I think they've missed some opportunities, but I would hardly say it's ruined this anime. If the dramatic focus of this anime is (and was always going to be) the relationship between Nagisa and Tomoya, then, as disappointing as it may be for some, is it really that terrible that other characters need to make way for them? Well, it would be if this particular arc fizzled... but I'll hold judgement until I see it.
grey_moon
2008-02-15, 23:01
Apart from my usual fantasies of twincest 3 somes. I wonder if this episode actually saved Ryou and Kyou's relationship? If either of them got the guy they both loved would the other one been able to support the other from the side without cracking? I think from the gym scene that Kyou would have cracked with the slightest pressure from Tomoya....
There is no way that you can't tell Nagisa is going to win, I never even heard of Clannad until the trailer came out. And from the teasers and opening scene, I knew already she was going to win.
and on what base were u saying that? not that i don't believe you, but i would have to say that most people wouldn't know which girls will win if this is not a key based game (which now we know always have one real ending with one main heroine), not spoiled themselves from the story, and from opening scene... well sure nagisa has more shots than most of other heroines, but hey how about true tears, and other romance anime, can you tell which girl the hero will end up based on opening sequence only? teaser? whats up with the teaser? sure i can't tell how other people who haven't play the game and DON'T know how key story usually being told view the opening and teaser.
MeoTwister5
2008-02-15, 23:11
This has been such a strange thread to read through. It's been filled with some absolute extremes. On the one hand, some of the level of discussion in this thread has been simply atrocious. Shipping, rage, baseless hate for certain characters simply because they're favourite girl didn't "win". I mean, c'mon. I question whether people making such posts understand the meaning behind this show at all. It's the level of posting I expect to see in the Shuffle! forums, not here. On the other hand there have been some fantastic and inciteful posts as well. Analyses of the characters and relationships, objective and thoughtful criticisms. It's a pity that some of these posts are lost within some of the crap that's been spouted in this thread.
----
I can understand where Mentar is coming from, even if I wouldn't say that the flaw has crippled this series to the extent that he states. The pacing of this ep really wasn't super and, as Ascaloth said, I also think it could have been spread out over two episodes. Tomoyo's backstory, for example, was just far too interesting to get as little screentime as it did. But while I would have liked to have seen more of it, the question I ask myself is, what more could they have shown? They showed as much as they needed to to demonstrate the point, and if the slowed the pacing down too much, it would have come off as unnecessarily drawn out. I guess I'd have liked to have seen more interaction between Tomoyo and her brother, for example, but even if they did do this we still would have arrived at the same conclusion with regards to her and her goal of protecting the trees. So, yes, I sympathize with those that say it did feel compressed, since I had the same feeling while watching it, but looking back on it, I just can't really see how they could have made it feel not so compressed without either adding redundant things to the to the sequence, or compromising other things in the story. (Ascaloth brings up a good point in his blog post, though... since when did student council president have any jurisdiction over what happens outside of the school. I thought to myself at the time that maybe she wants to use the position as a better vantage point from which to lobby the local council, but, hmmm, seems kind of weak. Guess it isn't all that important.)
The Fujibayashi sister relationship is a fascinating one. I think that particular story came to its inevitable conclusion. I wish they were a little more explicit with Kyou's reaction, though. I mean, yes, this was all KyoAni needed to show to communicate Kyou's state of mind and the realization she had (although I think she knew for a long time, this just forced her to finally admit it to herself). But her thoughts at this moment in time would have just been so interesting. I wanted to know just exactly what was going through her mind. A snapshot of a character study at the very moment where her heart was broken. I'm a little disappointed that they passed up on that.
I also think the scene would have been a lot more powerful if they didn't break out into tears in public. I always find crying in public inappropriate. Ok, funerals and weddings are a different matter (break ups as well, maybe, but that depends on the circumstances). But, if you're so overwhelmed by emotion at a certain point, don't you generally try to be alone before bursting out into tears? I think it would have been a much more powerful moment if one or both ran somewhere to be alone, and then started crying. The people around them who saw them crying probably thought they were weirdos. I mean, who cries at a tennis match. Other than Roger Federer, but I'd say he's perfectly entitled to.
The underlying themes and meanings are what make this such a strong story. They compensate for some of the questionable pacing, which actually hasn't been all that much of a problem until this episode where the inevitability of the conflict between the tempered pacing we saw before this episode and the limit of 24 episodes came to a head. Sacrifices to the pacing needed to be made, and they managed to avoid them up until now (for better or for worse). Oh well. I think they've missed some opportunities, but I would hardly say it's ruined this anime. If the dramatic focus of this anime is (and was always going to be) the relationship between Nagisa and Tomoya, then, as disappointing as it may be for some, is it really that terrible that other characters need to make way for them? Well, it would be if this particular arc fizzled... but I'll hold judgement until I see it.
The problem with the Tomoyo story is that her brother barely makes any presence in the story as himself. The only real time we see him is at the end of the story already.
For Kyou's state of mind, if she were to come out with a complex introspective monologue on her feelings then it wold have been ridiculous. She reacted as how many girls would have: she cried. We don't really need to hear her speak her mind or say something profound of the moment to understand her feelings. It's left to us, having learned about her personality, to interpret the intention and reasoning behind her tears.
Granted the emotional teary outburst was a bit over the top, but when you consider the time and emotional investment placed for Tomoya you'd expect them to break. At the very least shed some tears.
Somewhat off topic, but an old man must ramble (I've got only so much years of coherent thought left. Heh heh.).
Sometimes, I hate the objectiveness and logic within me. This thread has reminded me how much passion I had back in the day. Hahaha. I say, go forth and be passionate. Let it all out before you end up a decrepit old person (Like me!). Perhaps find a place and write it all down. That's the best way to drain all that emotion.
Reactions and responses will make up this thread. Merely fans of the series placing those here, I suppose. It is always the first reaction within ourselves that is the strongest. But I do dearly hope, we can march forward and meet the future with a clear head.
As for me, I shall look forward to future episodes and wonder how Kyoani will implement the rest of the series. My belief is that there may be too much material to cover and a second season will be needed. Of course, that is only a belief. Hmm-hmm. Kyoani will do what they decide themselves. 'Til then, I'll be lurking and looking to the next episodes.
And now I end all this angel choir talk and get back to lurking. Heh heh. :)
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