View Full Version : The Genderbending of Haruhi Suzumiya [Spoilers Aplenty]
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-08-25, 22:03
doesn't Kyon call Itsuki 'Koizumi'? Why Kyonko call Itsko 'Itsuko'?
I... never really questioned it. It was a detail that came up before I joined, so I didn't really want to drag it up. Though, judging from the way things are now, I probably could have without much of a problem. :heh:
I... never really questioned it. It was a detail that came up before I joined, so I didn't really want to drag it up. Though, judging from the way things are now, I probably could have without much of a problem. :heh:
I just felt it a little odd. Haruhi always was the only one who he calls by the first name. Can't see why the change. He also calls Mikuru 'Asahina-san", acordly to Baka-Tsuki (http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=Suzumiya_Haruhi:Guideline). But the change of 'san' to 'senpai' is not as odd as last name basis to first name basis.
The visual novel seens to go for 'Itsuko'. I've never notied that before, but now I think pretty weird.
There is, at last, a reason for that change?
PP:
Actually, no one but Tsuruya call Itsuki 'Itsuki' (and she add a 'kun' to his name). And also nobody call him 'Koizumi-san'
Iaevuous
2009-08-25, 22:23
Last I recall, it was something about girls being more likely to be open in relationship than guys. Could be wrong or the reason might have changed. Been a while since I read went insane and decided to read the thread end-to-end, so don't take my word for it.
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-08-25, 22:27
Pretty sure that was the reason... which makes it really awkward that Kyonko is on a last name basis with Kunikida, who she's known since before high school. :heh:
*e* Also, the senpai thing was simply due to the assumption that she'd be the kind of girl that'd do that. Plus, it makes it a little less awkward for her to differentiate between the two Mitsuurus.
Last I recall, it was something about girls being more likely to be open in relationship than guys. Could be wrong or the reason might have changed. Been a while since I read went insane and decided to read the thread end-to-end, so don't take my word for it.
The problem is she still call Taniguchi and Kunikida as 'Taniguchi' and 'Kunikida'. And she know Kunikida for a longer time. Also, I am sure Itsuko annoys her more then Kunikida (but no more then Taniguchi :p)
Also, this is kinda against the point of having her only calling Haruki by his first name. It would be also strange calling Sasaki as 'Sasaki', given she call other people by first name now (Kyon don't do it).
PP:
Pretty sure that was the reason... which makes it really awkward that Kyonko is on a last name basis with Kunikida, who she's known since before high school. :heh:
Agree =P Funny how we thought the same thing.
*e* Also, the senpai thing was simply due to the assumption that she'd be the kind of girl that'd do that. Plus, it makes it a little less awkward for her to differentiate between the two Mitsuurus.
No complaining about Mitsuru. She could call the old as Asahina-san(Big) like Kyon do. But I have no problem here.
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-08-25, 22:34
The problem is she still call Taniguchi and Kunikida as 'Taniguchi' and 'Kunikida'. And she know Kunikida for a longer time.
Beat you to that. :heh:
*e* And... this is why I don't normally point stuff out. :p
Beat you to that. :heh:
*e* And... this is why I don't normally point stuff out. :p
So, I beat you in perceived you have beated me? :heh:
It is the second time you beat me today. I am geting worse on it :p
CrowKenobi
2009-08-25, 22:48
"In quantum mechanics, the Heisenberg uncertainty principle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle) states that certain pairs of physical properties, like position and momentum, cannot both be known to arbitrary precision. That is, the more precisely one property is known, the less precisely the other can be known. It is impossible to measure simultaneously both position and velocity of a microscopic particle with any degree of accuracy or certainty. This is not only a statement about the limitations of a researcher's ability to measure particular quantities of a system, following the tenets of logical positivism, it is a statement about the nature of the system itself."And Star Trek got around this by using a thing called the "Heisenberg Compensators (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heisenberg_compensator#Capabilities_and_limitation s)" to help explain how the Transporter worked... :p :heh:
There's an idea! Have Itsuko throw out some "Treknobabble" and see how it turns out! :heh: :eyespin:
besieger
2009-08-25, 22:56
Thus it makes a perfect twist to it. Go for it, Kaisos. And rep me for the idea. :D
Pretty sure that was the reason... which makes it really awkward that Kyonko is on a last name basis with Kunikida, who she's known since before high school. :heh:
There's also a component of how comfortable two people are with each other. It's one thing to have known someone for awhile, it's another thing to be good friends. I've never gotten the feeling that Kyon and Kunikida are more then friends in a relatively vague sense (more then just acquaintances, but less then someone you might go out of your way to spend time with). And Taniguchi is just... Taniguchi.
There's also a component of how comfortable two people are with each other. It's one thing to have known someone for awhile, it's another thing to be good friends. I've never gotten the feeling that Kyon and Kunikida are more then friends in a relatively vague sense (more then just acquaintances, but less then someone you might go out of your way to spend time with). And Taniguchi is just... Taniguchi.
So, you are suggesting Kyonko is more confortable with Itsuko? Really? :heh: Sure, is not like Kunikida is her best friend, but Itsuko creeps her out.
Also, still don't make sense why she wouldn't call her old best friend by the given name. She was never as close to Sasaki as she is to Haruki, but was probably closer to him then to Itsuko.
Again, a particuarily of Kyon is he calls everyone by it family name. Exept Haruhi (and those who haven't even a name, like his sister and the CCP).
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-08-25, 23:44
Another problem that arises from the logic... is that the seemingly inseparable Taniguchi and Kunikida are also on a last name basis with one another...
Another problem that arises from the logic... is that the seemingly inseparable Taniguchi and Kunikida are also on a last name basis with one another...
Actually, I don't remember they talking about each other. Don't remember if they ever talked the other's name at all.
So, you are suggesting Kyonko is more confortable with Itsuko? Really? :heh: Sure, is not like Kunikida is her best friend, but Itsuko creeps her out.
Also, still don't make sense why she wouldn't call her old best friend by the given name. She was never as close to Sasaki as she is to Haruki, but was probably closer to him then to Itsuko.
Again, a particuarily of Kyon is he calls everyone by it family name. Except Haruhi (and those who haven't even a name, like his sister and the CCP).
Itsuko may creep Kyonko out, but unlike Kunikida (as far as I know), they've been through some very weird stuff together, and she does know Itsuko 'has her back', as it were: she can rely on her when things get tough, and vice versa (no matter how much she may complain about it).
Perhaps it is the amount of emotional intimacy that determines whether Kyonko calls people by first name? Kunikida, she's known for a long time, but thinks of as a somewhat foolish classmate. Sasaki was someone she was sort of close to, someone who at least intrigued her. Haruki is the big whirlwind that blew through her life and let in mad fun. Itsuko is a fellow girl with whom she's gone through the mad fun spawned by Haruki. She may squee over Mitsuuru, but she knows on a very concrete level that they're not meant for each other, no matter how much she enjoys his company, so she keeps a certain proper distance in her form of address. We know she likes Nagato, but his general presence does not provoke her to use his first name, unlike whirlwind Haruki? Just some thoughts ...
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-08-26, 00:02
Live A Live has Kunikida referring to Taniguchi by name a few times, and I think Taniguchi said Kunikida's name at least once there, as well.
While that would normally be a "Bridge. Cross. Later." thing, it does cause a bit of problems.
Perhaps it is the amount of emotional intimacy that determines whether Kyonko calls people by first name? Kunikida, she's known for a long time, but thinks of as a somewhat foolish classmate. Sasaki was someone she was sort of close to, someone who at least intrigued her. Haruki is the big whirlwind that blew through her life and let in mad fun. Itsuko is a fellow girl with whom she's gone through the mad fun spawned by Haruki. She may squee over Mitsuuru, but she knows on a very concrete level that they're not meant for each other, no matter how much she enjoys his company, so she keeps a certain proper distance in her form of address. We know she likes Nagato, but his general presence does not provoke her to use his first name, unlike whirlwind Haruki? Just some thoughts ...
I agree with many things here. But, I don't see why she would show closeness to Itsuko over Mitsuru or Yuuki. She probably is closer to her (both are girls, after all), but is still odd she demonstring it. Again she was probably closer to Sasaki, at last in the past. Also, there is the problem she calling Itsuko 'Itsuko' in Melancholy (and even Boredom), since they wasn't close at all yet.
On more thing, I always took Kyon calling Haruhi for her first name as a sig of proximity, given how he fall everyone else by it last name. This feeling is destroyed by having other person being called by the first name
And I never hear about girls being more open to friends, actually. In hight school, the bigger groups of friends are all male. (but, well, here everybody just call everyone by it given name, so I am not sure how it works in other contries)
PP:
Live A Live has Kunikida referring to Taniguchi by name a few times, and I think Taniguchi said Kunikida's name at least once there, as well.
While that would normally be a "Bridge. Cross. Later." thing, it does cause a bit of problems.
Well, this bridge was actualy crossed a long ago. We need to make sure if it was the right one or if we should back.
I was look Live A Live again. It seen japaneses has at standard callingpeople by it last name, even if it is a close school mate right?
CanadaAotS
2009-08-26, 00:14
Get someone to edit in a scene where Itsuko specifically requests that Kyonko uses her first name in the novel rewrites, and voila! Problem solved.
You can just say that Kyonko never calls anyone else by first name simply because she was never asked to. It's not like it wouldn't be in Itsuko's character to do that... similar to regularly invading Kyonko's personal space :heh:
@Aebliss
CLIMAX OF STORY, I NEEEEED IT.
Btw, I actually don't mind Mitsuuru in your story. He's still a meh character overall (not your fault in any way, so was Mikuru), but I like seeing him with a spine. Mikuru -never- got angry about anything as far as I know. Nice job.
Get someone to edit in a scene where Itsuko specifically requests that Kyonko uses her first name in the novel rewrites, and voila! Problem solved.
You can just say that Kyonko never calls anyone else by first name simply because she was never asked to. It's not like it wouldn't be in Itsuko's character to do that... similar to regularly invading Kyonko's personal space :heh:
That might work. But, it is really that necessery having her calling Itsuko by her first name? If is to same work, I can edit the scripts myself, at last for the VN (I have to work with then anyway).
This should be an official novel.
Well, thank you very much for that. ^^ But if it were, I couldn't ... um ... Why don't I keep my future intentions to myself for now? Yeah. But thanks a lot!
It's amusing when Haruki gets protective.
Also, Mitsuuru seems rather obsessed with the being the Scully here...despite being from the future and in a club full of supernatural freaks.
Well, Asahina's given me a 'Scully'-vibe several times, the way Mikuru originally contradicts the infodump given by Koizumi, and some of her later responses. And of course those translate over to little ol' Mitsuuru and ... presto! 'Sides, the Asahinas are, in a sense of the word, programmed ... :-\ All that 'classified information' stuff gave me the feeling they're either directly wired into their futuristic version of a computer, or they've been brainwashed.
This is my one major nitpick: *snip*
Fixed it.
@Aebliss
CLIMAX OF STORY, I NEEEEED IT.
Btw, I actually don't mind Mitsuuru in your story. He's still a meh character overall (not your fault in any way, so was Mikuru), but I like seeing him with a spine. Mikuru -never- got angry about anything as far as I know. Nice job.
It's coming, it's coming! ^^; One or two more chapters, maybe three on the outside. And thanks for your appreciation for special spine-action Mitsuuru. I figured a boy would lash out at least once or twice where a girl might be more likely to hold her tongue.
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-08-26, 00:38
Get someone to edit in a scene where Itsuko specifically requests that Kyonko uses her first name in the novel rewrites, and voila! Problem solved.
You can just say that Kyonko never calls anyone else by first name simply because she was never asked to. It's not like it wouldn't be in Itsuko's character to do that... similar to regularly invading Kyonko's personal space :heh:
Mitsuuru asked Kyonko to tall him by his first name in Chapter 2 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=1914270&postcount=12087). Not gonna work. :heh:
"It's all right. I want to join."
"But I really don't think this will turn out well at all.”
"But you're in it, aren't you?"
Yeah... but not by choice. Why am I even still here?
"This was probably inevitable on the temporal plane..." he said, his eyes staring off into the distance.
""Pardon?"
"And I'm interested in the presence of Nagato-san..."
"Interested?"
"Eh? Oh, no, it's nothing." he said, shaking his head. His hair waved gently as he smiled, looking embarrassed, and gave me a deep bow.
"I may be a little trouble, but please bear with me for now!"
"Uh, if you say so, but look, Asahina-senpai-"
"Please, just call me Mitsuuru!"
He smiled.
Aww... he’s so cute!
Mitsuuru asked Kyonko to tall him by his first name in Chapter 2 (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=1914270&postcount=12087). Not gonna work. :heh:
"It's all right. I want to join."
"But I really don't think this will turn out well at all.”
"But you're in it, aren't you?"
Yeah... but not by choice. Why am I even still here?
"This was probably inevitable on the temporal plane..." he said, his eyes staring off into the distance.
""Pardon?"
"And I'm interested in the presence of Nagato-san..."
"Interested?"
"Eh? Oh, no, it's nothing." he said, shaking his head. His hair waved gently as he smiled, looking embarrassed, and gave me a deep bow.
"I may be a little trouble, but please bear with me for now!"
"Uh, if you say so, but look, Asahina-senpai-"
"Please, just call me Mitsuuru!"
He smiled.
Aww... he’s so cute!
Oh, that is true. This also happened with Kyon and Mikuru.
Well, if she didn't call Mitsuru, her loved brother replacer, but his first name after this, why would she call Itsuko? :p
Well, Asahina's given me a 'Scully'-vibe several times, the way Mikuru originally contradicts the infodump given by Koizumi, and some of her later responses. And of course those translate over to little ol' Mitsuuru and ... presto! 'Sides, the Asahinas are, in a sense of the word, programmed ... :-\ All that 'classified information' stuff gave me the feeling they're either directly wired into their futuristic version of a computer, or they've been brainwashed.
Isn't this directly mentioned somewhere, in either the anime or the light novels? Something about the internet in the future actually being a part of everyone? Or am I pulling that out of your story?
I agree with many things here. But, I don't see why she would show closeness to Itsuko over Mitsuru or Yuuki. She probably is closer to her (both are girls, after all), but is still odd she demonstring it. Again she was probably closer to Sasaki, at last in the past. Also, there is the problem she calling Itsuko 'Itsuko' in Melancholy (and even Boredom), since they wasn't close at all yet.
I was look Live A Live again. It seen japaneses has at standard callingpeople by it last name, even if it is a close school mate right?
My understanding of the situation (drawn primarily from Shoujo manga and other relationship-oriented stuff) is that your close friends of the same gender refer to you by your personal name, or sometimes a nickname, though not all nicknames are that special (Kyon, for example); on the other hand, having a member of the opposite sex refer to you by said name is a big deal.
I'll be the first to admit that this is applied somewhat unevenly: the above mentioned stories make it out to be vastly important, while the more shonen/actiony stories tend to have everyone calling everyone else by their personal name (except in cases of power differences... but we already know how those work somewhat well, having hashed it out with Mitsuuru much earlier on).
EDIT: A can of worms has been opened. Ahaha~.
Well, it is a confusing topic.
vivify93
2009-08-26, 01:19
A can of worms has been opened. Ahaha~.
Isn't this directly mentioned somewhere, in either the anime or the light novels? Something about the internet in the future actually being a part of everyone? Or am I pulling that out of your story?
In her introdution infodump she said something about not being able to talk more then she should. In Endless Eight it make clear she really can't. In novel7, I beleive, she was surprise she could talk something to Kyon without being censored.
My understanding of the situation (drawn primarily from Shoujo manga and other relationship-oriented stuff) is that your close friends of the same gender refer to you by your personal name, or sometimes a nickname, though not all nicknames are that special (Kyon, for example); on the other hand, having a member of the opposite sex refer to you by said name is a big deal.
I'll be the first to admit that this is applied somewhat unevenly: the above mentioned stories make it out to be vastly important, while the more shonen/actiony stories tend to have everyone calling everyone else by their personal name (except in cases of power differences... but we already know how those work somewhat well, having hashed it out with Mitsuuru much earlier on).
This is kinda true. However, Mikuru/tsuru specificly asked him/her to be called by their first name, yet, Kyon/ko didn't did that. I think in a shoujo manga when the heroine make a similar question the hero acept right? Also, I think is more like Kyonko refusing to call Itsuko like that exactly because she asked to.
Kaisos Erranon
2009-08-26, 02:26
Kyonko calls Itsuko "Itsuko" because they're close friends, as loath as Kyonko is to admit it.
She's probably closer to Itsuko than anyone else in the brigade.
Now shut up. :heh:
Kyonko calls Itsuko "Itsuko" because they're close friends, as loath as Kyonko is to admit it.
She's probably closer to Itsuko than anyone else in the brigade.
Now shut up. :heh:
So is Kyon to Itsuki. Yet, he still calls him 'Koizumi'.
DJ_RockmanX
2009-08-26, 02:30
Let's just accept the shoujo argument and move on guys.
Kaisos Erranon
2009-08-26, 02:32
So is Kyon to Itsuki. Yet, he still calls him 'Koizumi'.
Guys in Japan do not do this. It's considered creepy.
Let's just accept the shoujo argument and move on guys.
Thank you, boss.
Let's just accept the shoujo argument and move on guys.
But I also gave a shoujo argument. :heh:
PP:
Guys in Japan do not do this. It's considered creepy.
I don't have many Hight scholl manga, but Ichigo calls his frieds (exept Ishida) by the first name and all guys in Ouran have a first name basis, I believe
CanadaAotS
2009-08-26, 02:40
Kyonko calls Itsuko "Itsuko" because they're close friends, as loath as Kyonko is to admit it.
She's probably closer to Itsuko than anyone else in the brigade.
Now shut up. :heh:
And then we loop back to the fact that she never calls Taniguchi or Kunikida by their first names. More importantly, she can't call them by their first names, since they don't exist.
Close friends? But I thought one of the main plot points was that no one really likes each other yet, just after Endless Eights. Everyone is mostly strangers still.
I never questioned any of this way back in the day because I never thought of it, but K&T thing was never brought up in relation to it...
Kaisos Erranon
2009-08-26, 03:01
all guys in Ouran have a first name basis, I believe
Exactly. Creepy. :heh:
Everyone is mostly strangers still.
Not those two, however. Much like in the original canon, they're easily the closest to each other.
I never questioned any of this way back in the day because I never thought of it, but K&T thing was never brought up in relation to it...
Has Kyonko ever really done anything to make you think she's really friends with either of them?
Anyway, please, we need to stop and just accept this. We do not need to nitpick over every fucking little thing. Please.
Exactly. Creepy. :heh:
Oh, good point. :heh: This don't explain Ichigo, though. He call his male friends by their given name (exept Ishida) and they do the same for him (exept Ishida).
Not those two, however. Much like in the original canon, they're easily the closest to each other.
True. However, I really wouldn't call the 'close'. She should really be closer to Haruki then to anyone else. And this should be expressed by she only calling him by his given name, like their canon conter part.
Anyway, please, we need to stop and just accept this. We do not need to nitpick over every fucking little thing. Please.
Why? Discussing every thing is what make this project better and better. The original arguments aparently were only:
For Itsuko my vote would be just that. Itsuko. It's informal, and can suggest both closeness as well as distance (like Kyon simply calling Haruhi, Haruhi long before any visible romance starts).
I don't think it is convincing at all. As you were saying, it suggest closeness and only that. I think is that the point of Kyon calling Haruhi 'Haruhi'. Showed how he thought her as a friend even if he complaims a lot.
PP:
A way to suggest distance would be 'Itsuko-san'. But then, why not change to 'Koizumi'?
Also, I think you could say Kyon show closeness to Itsuki by not adding a '-san' to his surname.
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-08-26, 03:18
Damn it. I spent over an hour writing this, so I'm going to post it. :heh:
Get off!
"We're both girls, right?" Koizumi calmly stated, while continuing to press her chest against my back. "There is absolutely nothing wrong with us being this close."
I wholeheartedly disagree. This deathgrip you're calling a hug is very uncomfortable. I'm surprised I can even breathe!
Perhaps that was a bad idea, as I felt her arms constricting around me even tighter. Is this what a rabbit about to be killed by a boa feels like?! ACK!
"What ever do you mean, Kyon-chan? I feel no discomfort in doing this."
Well of course you don't, you're not on the receiving end. And quit calling me that!
As I try desperately to pry Koizumi's arms off, I suddenly feel her breath entering my ear. Cut. It. Out!
"If you really want me to let go of you, I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask you to do something in return."
You're asking me for a favor in THIS position? What kind of girl do you think I am?!
As if the physical torture of her arms cutting off my circulation wasn't bad enough, my ear was suddenly bombarded with laughter.
"It's nothing like that, honest. All I'm asking is for you to say my name."
Fine, "Koizumi." Now let me go.
"That's not what I meant. We are supposed to at least maintain an illusion of camaraderie while around Suzumiya-san. The best ways to do that would be to either do what we are now or refer to one another through either nicknames or our given names."
Fine then, PRINCESS. How about I refer to you as PRINCESS from now on?
Once again, the sound of laughter pierces my eardrum. Please, stop doing that.
"Itsuko is fine. Please. Say my name."
I mutter "Itsuko" under my breath.
"You're going to have to say it a little louder than that."
I... Itsuko.
"Once more."
Itsuko...
"That's good! Once more, with feeling!"
... Itsu... Hey, wait. I did it three times already!
"I suppose you did."
As I was released, I found myself unable to gather the strength needed to remain standing, so I fell to my knees, using my hands for added support.
"However, I want you to refer to me as 'Itsuko' starting today."
And if I don't?
"I think the alternative is obvious."
As I pulled myself to my feet, I wondered if... Itsuko was put up to this by Haruki. Damn it, why did I ever talk to that idiot?!
Triple_R
2009-08-26, 03:19
So is Kyon to Itsuki. Yet, he still calls him 'Koizumi'.
Two points...
1) Generally speaking, male Japanese characters tend to be referred to by their family name more often than female Japanese characters are. This especially comes through with brother/sister pairs - for example, in Ranma 1/2, there's a brother/sister pair of Tatewaki Kuno and Kodachi Kuno. Tatewaki Kuno is almost always called simply "Kuno"; Kodachi Kuno is almost always called by her given name of "Kodachi". Also, I don't think that I've ever seen one female Japanese character address another female Japanese character by their family name; especially when they are friends. Just look at the K-On girls; they all address each other by given names (or nick names).
So, here's a perfectly good reason for Kyon to call Itsuki Koizumi by his family name, but for Kyonko to call Itsuko Koizumi by her given name.
2) It simply makes it easier to keep things straight, dude, by using the altered portions of the gender-bended characters names. If the gender-bended characters were all called "Koizumi", "Asahina", "Nagato", "Suzumiya", and "Kyon"... well, that could really trip up a writer and make the writer forget that it's not the regular gender characters that are being wrote.
Having at least two or three of them go by the altered name - "Itsuko", "Mitsuruu", "Yuuki", "Haruki" and "Kyonko" - makes it easier for the writer to keep their genders straight.
So, here's one good "in-canon" reason, and one good "for the writer's" reason for why it's done this way, I think.
Heatth - As for Ichigo... Ichigo is very close (in a platonic way) to Chad. Plus, IIRC, Chad isn't Japanese (at least not pure-blooded Japanese), so Ichigo may be showing respect to Chad's culture by calling him by his first name. Also, one could say that Ichigo is about as close to Ishida as Kyon is to Koizumi - they're friends, yes, but there's some tension there between them due to circumstances. So, if it makes sense for Ichigo to call Ishida by his family name, then it also makes sense for Kyon to call Koizumi by his family name. Finally, I'm glad you raised Ichigo. As far as I know, Ichigo calls all female Japanese characters by their first name. All of them, regardless of how close he is to that character. IIRC, anyway. That says a lot when you consider how he calls Ishida by his family name, don't you think?
Anyway, Heatth, I'm probably not the best one to talk after the height debate, but... yeah, Kaisos is right, you're being too nitpicky. Some of this small stuff, that doesn't really mean much at all, you should let slide. I was with you on the height debate for thematic reasons, but this name debate is a bit silly, imo. It doesn't make a big difference which name (given, family, or nickname) the characters call each other.
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-08-26, 03:21
I don't think that I've ever seen one female Japanese character address another female Japanese character by their family name - especially when they are friends.
Mikuru calls Tsuruya "Tsuruya-san," despite the fact that they're established as being fairly close friends.
Two points...
1) Generally speaking, male Japanese characters tend to be referred to by their family name more often than female Japanese characters are. This especially comes through with brother/sister pairs - for example, in Ranma 1/2, there's a brother/sister pair of Tatewaki Kuno and Kodachi Kuno. Tatewaki Kuno is almost always called simply "Kuno"; Kodachi Kuno is almost always called by her given name of "Kodachi". Also, I don't think that I've ever seen one female Japanese character address another female Japanese character by their family name - especially when they are friends. Just look at the K-On girls; they all address each other by first names.
So, here's a perfectly good reason for Kyon to call Itsuki Koizumi by his family name, but for Kyonko to call Itsuko Koizumi by her given name.
Except Itsuko is not Itsuki's sister? :heh: And the K-ON girls are more friendly then Kyonko. There is still the problem of her calling Kunikida by her family name. Also, Haruhi is female have two female friends, Tsuruya and Sakanaka, and still call the by their family names.
2) It simply makes it easier to keep things straight, dude, by using the altered portions of the gender-bended characters names. If the gender-bended characters were all called "Koizumi", "Asahina", "Nagato", "Suzumiya", and "Kyon"... well, that could really trip up a writer and make the writer forget that it's not the regular gender characters that are being wrote.
Having at least two or three of them go by the altered name - "Itsuko", "Mitsuruu", "Yuuki", "Haruki" and "Kyonko" - makes it easier for the writer to keep their genders straight.
So, here's one good "in-canon" reason, and one good "for the writer's" reason for why it's done this way, I think.
That is actually a good point. Though, I would say it would work better for the VN having both Kyons calling their friend in a similar manner. We can see then, so it will no be confusing. Also, The writer can write with 'Itsuko' and have the editor change if he work better in that way. (sorry, Jintor, for suggesting give you more work :p)
I can change the already edited scenes directly on the script, btw.
PP:
Mikuru calls Tsuruya "Tsuruya-san," despite the fact that they're established as being fairly close friends.
That too. Thanks.
Also, I will read you fanfic latter, sorry. Kinda sleepy and 'busy' with that discussion.
PPP:
Some more exemples, in Negima, some girls are called by their surname by some other girls. The unfriendly Chisame is a good exemple. A better one is Asakura, who is never caled "Kazumi" even being friendly to every one.
Triple_R
2009-08-26, 03:37
Damn it. I spent over an hour writing this, so I'm going to post it. :heh:
Get off!
"We're both girls, right?" Koizumi calmly stated, while continuing to press her chest against my back. "There is absolutely nothing wrong with us being this close."
I wholeheartedly disagree. This deathgrip you're calling a hug is very uncomfortable. I'm surprised I can even breathe!
Perhaps that was a bad idea, as I felt her arms constricting around me even tighter. Is this what a rabbit about to be killed by a boa feels like?! ACK!
"What ever do you mean, Kyon-chan? I feel no discomfort in doing this."
Well of course you don't, you're not on the receiving end. And quit calling me that!
As I try desperately to pry Koizumi's arms off, I suddenly feel her breath entering my ear. Cut. It. Out!
"If you really want me to let go of you, I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask you to do something in return."
You're asking me for a favor in THIS position? What kind of girl do you think I am?!
As if the physical torture of her arms cutting off my circulation wasn't bad enough, my ear was suddenly bombarded with laughter.
"It's nothing like that, honest. All I'm asking is for you to say my name."
Fine, "Koizumi." Now let me go.
"That's not what I meant. We are supposed to at least maintain an illusion of camaraderie while around Suzumiya-san. The best ways to do that would be to either do what we are now or refer to one another through either nicknames or our given names."
Fine then, PRINCESS. How about I refer to you as PRINCESS from now on?
Once again, the sound of laughter pierces my eardrum. Please, stop doing that.
"Itsuko is fine. Please. Say my name."
I mutter "Itsuko" under my breath.
"You're going to have to say it a little louder than that."
I... Itsuko.
"Once more."
Itsuko...
"That's good! Once more, with feeling!"
... Itsu... Hey, wait. I did it three times already!
"I suppose you did."
As I was released, I found myself unable to gather the strength needed to remain standing, so I fell to my knees, using my hands for added support.
"However, I want you to refer to me as 'Itsuko' starting today."
And if I don't?
"I think the alternative is obvious."
As I pulled myself to my feet, I wondered if... Itsuko was put up to this by Haruki. Damn it, why did I ever talk to that idiot?!
That was great! I really enjoyed reading it. :D
Mikuru calls Tsuruya "Tsuruya-san," despite the fact that they're established as being fairly close friends.
*Sigh*
That's only because this anime/novel has the annoying habit of really short-changing characters on names. Tsuruya is known by Tsuruya because that's the only name we know for her.
Outside of Haruhi, I'm pretty sure I've never seen one female Japanese character call another female Japanese character by their family name.
*Sigh*
That's only because this anime/novel has the annoying habit of really short-changing characters on names. Tsuruya is known by Tsuruya because that's the only name we know for her.
Outside of Haruhi, I'm pretty sure I've never seen one female Japanese character call another female Japanese character by their family name.
I edited my post while you were posting.
Some more exemples, in Negima, some girls are called by their surname by some other girls. The unfriendly Chisame is a good exemple. A better one is Asakura, who is never caled "Kazumi" even being friendly to every one.
PP:
There is also Tohru, from Fruits Basket, who calls pretty much every one by their last name, even her best friends. However, she calls these friends by a nickname based on the surname, actually, so might no really count.
Triple_R
2009-08-26, 03:44
Some more exemples, in Negima, some girls are called by their surname by some other girls. The unfriendly Chisame is a good exemple. A better one is Asakura, who is never caled "Kazumi" even being friendly to every one.
Ok, fine, there are exceptions to the rule; I wasn't aware of these before because I'm not much into Negima at all. But the fact is, Japanese girls who are friends very much tend to call each others by their given names, while Japanese guys who are friends are, at best, much more over the board here.
It's not that strange, Heatth, for a male Kyon to call Itsuki by the name "Koizumi" but for a female Kyon to call Itsuko by her given name of "Itsuko".
Ok, fine, there are exceptions to the rule; I wasn't aware of these before because I'm not much into Negima at all. But the fact is, Japanese girls who are friends very much tend to call each others by their given names, while Japanese guys who are friends are, at best, much more over the board here.
I really think male japanese do the same, however. Don't remember any manga where it is strange for a teen male call his male friends by the first name.
It's not that strange, Heatth, for a male Kyon to call Itsuki by the name "Koizumi" but for a female Kyon to call Itsuko by her given name of "Itsuko".
I don't think it is that strange. Just kinda wrong. The only character Kyon calls by it name is Haruhi. Don't you really think it have some meaning?
PP:
Also, while her not calling T&K by their given name is because they don't have a given name (like Mikuru and Tsuruya), it don't change the awkward feeling of her calling the creepy girl by name but not her older friends. Or these older friends not having a first name basis with each other. Assuming that in Haruverse the standard is last name basis and it is only broken by few (mostly Haruhi/ki and Tsuruyas) make more sense.
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-08-26, 03:50
That's only because this anime/novel has the annoying habit of really short-changing characters on names. Tsuruya is known by Tsuruya because that's the only name we know for her.
I'd point out that Haruhi and Yuki get the last name treatment from her as well, but I'm really not wanting to continue this discussion...
It's because I think of "Koizumi" as default male and anything else is going to confuse the fuck out of me.
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-08-26, 03:52
That works for me. Discussion finished. :p
Triple_R
2009-08-26, 03:54
I really think male japanese do the same, however. Don't remember any manga where it is strange for a teen male call his male friends by the first name.
I don't think it is that strange. Just kinda wrong. The only character Kyon calls by it name is Haruhi. Don't you really think it have some meaning?
Honestly? No, I don't. I think Kyon simply prefers the name "Nagato" to the name "Yuki", and prefers the name "Asahina" to the name "Mikuru". And, for much of the cast, family names are the only options.
Honestly? No, I don't. I think Kyon simply prefers the name "Nagato" to the name "Yuki", and prefers the name "Asahina" to the name "Mikuru". And, for much of the cast, family names are the only options.
Really? This really don't make sense for me. Mikuru even have asked him to call her by her first name.
It's because I think of "Koizumi" as default male and anything else is going to confuse the fuck out of me.
This is the best argument so far, yeah.
Obviously, both 'Asahina' and 'Asakura feels like a defaut female for me. Yet, I really don't confuse then while I am reading.
Triple_R
2009-08-26, 04:36
Really? This really don't make sense for me. Mikuru even have asked him to call her by her first name.
Let me rephrase - I hope that there's no special meaning to Kyon calling Haruhi by her given name but everybody else by their family name, because otherwise this is an awfully lame way to help prop up a pairing, imo. :heh:
Anyway, if you need an in-canon reason for why "Itsuko" is used by Kyonko, we can just roll with Kogetsu's cute scene explaining the history behind it. ;)
Roger Rambo
2009-08-26, 06:39
Get off!
"We're both girls, right?" Koizumi calmly stated, while continuing to press her considerable (and apparently quite natural) chest against my back . "There is absolutely nothing wrong with us being this close."
Fixed it for ya :naughty:
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-08-26, 06:42
I was trying to avoid playing up the yuri aspects of the scene. :heh:
Roger Rambo
2009-08-26, 07:05
I was trying to avoid playing up the yuri aspects of the scene. :heh:
I think everyone is gonna assume something yuri is going on with something like that :eyespin:
Besides, considering how well endowed Itsuko is, I think this kind of observation is impossible not to make.
I was thinking about something.
Is Kyonko just a Tsundere archetype instead of being an actual Gender-bent Kyon?
Convince me otherwise.
/EDIT Alternatively, is Kyon a male tsundere unrecognizable as a tsundere due to gender?
dragon4dudes
2009-08-26, 09:15
While the name thing could be important, the reason we're calling Itsuko "Itsuko" is because it seems to make more sense to genderbend a given name than to genderbend a family/surname.
For all this naming business, you can blame it all on having an unreliable narrator.
Like everything else in the universe...it is Kyon's fault.
I think we're forgetting the fact that the way you refer to people, no matter what the social rules surrounding you are, comes down to personal preference. Each character is going to have their own reasons for referring to people the way they do, outside of the "norm" of society.
Also, we're getting into personal character interpretation, which is a bit of a minefield. For example, I sort of view Kyon and Koizumi as having a vaguely Manzai interaction style, whereas I've never gotten that vibe from Kyonko and Itsuko. Others seem to feel that Kyon genuinely dislikes Koizumi (which carries over into the Kyonko/Itsuko relationship), which is a feeling I've never shared. In this situation, Kaisos's interpretation should probably rule, by the simple fact that he is the writer and these are his characters.
EDIT: Manzai is a two person comedy routine that's well known in Japan that consists of a boke (funny man) and a tsukkomi (straight man). Generally, the boke plays dumb about something, which angers the tsukkomi and leads to a lot of puns delivered at high speed, and some occasionally Stooge-ish action. Note that I'm not saying this is genuine reflective of their characters; instead, I think that the more comedic aspects of their interactions are similar to this. (For a more opaque version, think of Domeki and Watanuki from Holic).
Damn it. I spent over an hour writing this, so I'm going to post it. :heh:
Get off!
"We're both girls, right?" Koizumi calmly stated, while continuing to press her chest against my back. "There is absolutely nothing wrong with us being this close."
I wholeheartedly disagree. This deathgrip you're calling a hug is very uncomfortable. I'm surprised I can even breathe!
Perhaps that was a bad idea, as I felt her arms constricting around me even tighter. Is this what a rabbit about to be killed by a boa feels like?! ACK!
"What ever do you mean, Kyon-chan? I feel no discomfort in doing this."
Well of course you don't, you're not on the receiving end. And quit calling me that!
As I try desperately to pry Koizumi's arms off, I suddenly feel her breath entering my ear. Cut. It. Out!
"If you really want me to let go of you, I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask you to do something in return."
You're asking me for a favor in THIS position? What kind of girl do you think I am?!
As if the physical torture of her arms cutting off my circulation wasn't bad enough, my ear was suddenly bombarded with laughter.
"It's nothing like that, honest. All I'm asking is for you to say my name."
Fine, "Koizumi." Now let me go.
"That's not what I meant. We are supposed to at least maintain an illusion of camaraderie while around Suzumiya-san. The best ways to do that would be to either do what we are now or refer to one another through either nicknames or our given names."
Fine then, PRINCESS. How about I refer to you as PRINCESS from now on?
Once again, the sound of laughter pierces my eardrum. Please, stop doing that.
"Itsuko is fine. Please. Say my name."
I mutter "Itsuko" under my breath.
"You're going to have to say it a little louder than that."
I... Itsuko.
"Once more."
Itsuko...
"That's good! Once more, with feeling!"
... Itsu... Hey, wait. I did it three times already!
"I suppose you did."
As I was released, I found myself unable to gather the strength needed to remain standing, so I fell to my knees, using my hands for added support.
"However, I want you to refer to me as 'Itsuko' starting today."
And if I don't?
"I think the alternative is obvious."
As I pulled myself to my feet, I wondered if... Itsuko was put up to this by Haruki. Damn it, why did I ever talk to that idiot?!
Well, this is kinda totally overlly gay. :heh: Anyway, we would still have to change all the first uses of 'Itsuko' to 'Koizumi' and add a line showing Kyonko disguss on the first times she call Itsuko like that. I also would say this only fit after Melancholly, anyway.
Let me rephrase - I hope that there's no special meaning to Kyon calling Haruhi by her given name but everybody else by their family name, because otherwise this is an awfully lame way to help prop up a pairing, imo. :heh:
Oh, well. The meaning I think is less romantic, actually. Is more like she being the first, and maybe only, true friend he have. Someone in who he can trust (the trust in Yuki is kinda different). Haruhi trust him back too, which is kinda sad, seeing how he lies a lot ot her.
Anyway, if you need an in-canon reason for why "Itsuko" is used by Kyonko, we can just roll with Kogetsu's cute scene explaining the history behind it. ;)
Kogetsu story is not what I would call cute :p
I was thinking about something.
Is Kyonko just a Tsundere archetype instead of being an actual Gender-bent Kyon?
Convince me otherwise.
/EDIT Alternatively, is Kyon a male tsundere unrecognizable as a tsundere due to gender?
I think Kyon is a kinda tsundere yeah. I don't know if 'tsu' is the better word (it mean angry, agressive, right?), be he do deny (out loud) he cares about Haruhi to everyone, but trust her enterly anyway (also, not exactly a 'deredere' moment). Yeah, he is kinda tsundere, then, a femele him is more tsundereish.
PP:
To scify, I don't think Kyon genuinely dislikes Itsuki. However, he feel unconfortable when near him. My point, however, is both Kyons call everyone by the family name, so is strange Itsuko be diffeent. I work for the Suzumiyas, because their relationship with Kyon is different.
"Itsuko is fine. Please. Say my name."This made me think of another kind of befriending was going on.:heh:
First off, does everyone have some understanding of Japanese norms on addressing in conversations? The common form is surname+honorific. Casual address omits the honorific. Closer relationships would use first names, and the use of honorifics here depends on the level of respect the speaker intends to show. E.g. In Clannad, Sunohara and Okazaki call each other this way, despite being as close to bromance as they get.
For Kyonko and Itsuko; girls are likely to address each other by first name, indicating a close peer relationship even though they may not particularly like each other. Kyonko might be retaliating to any girl calling her Kyon by using their surnames. Itsuko rarely says Kyon. On the other hand, it might be good to be consistant about Kyonko's hatred for other women.
Note that what obeservations I have on the Japanese name addressing customs are mostly from dating sims. Trust at your own peril. :heh:
For Kyonko and Itsuko; girls are likely to address each other by first name, indicating a close peer relationship even though they may not particularly like each other. Kyonko might be retaliating to any girl calling her Kyon by using their surnames. Itsuko rarely says Kyon. On the other hand, it might be good to be consistant about Kyonko's hatred for other women.
I think this is one of the main problem. For consistance sake, having her only hcalling Itsuko by the name is strange. At last in the first novel they weren't that close (no more then, say, Kunikida and Taniguchi). Also, you can say she is not really close to T&K, but she did hand up with then for one moth before befriend Haruki. And even goes to school with Taniguchi.
Note that what obeservations I have on the Japanese name addressing customs are mostly from dating sims. Trust at your own peril. :heh:
Mine is not better, only from random hight schol mangas :p
Damn it. I spent over an hour writing this, so I'm going to post it. :heh:
Get off!
"We're both girls, right?" Koizumi calmly stated, while continuing to press her chest against my back. "There is absolutely nothing wrong with us being this close."
I wholeheartedly disagree. This deathgrip you're calling a hug is very uncomfortable. I'm surprised I can even breathe!
Perhaps that was a bad idea, as I felt her arms constricting around me even tighter. Is this what a rabbit about to be killed by a boa feels like?! ACK!
"What ever do you mean, Kyon-chan? I feel no discomfort in doing this."
Well of course you don't, you're not on the receiving end. And quit calling me that!
As I try desperately to pry Koizumi's arms off, I suddenly feel her breath entering my ear. Cut. It. Out!
"If you really want me to let go of you, I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask you to do something in return."
You're asking me for a favor in THIS position? What kind of girl do you think I am?!
As if the physical torture of her arms cutting off my circulation wasn't bad enough, my ear was suddenly bombarded with laughter.
"It's nothing like that, honest. All I'm asking is for you to say my name."
Fine, "Koizumi." Now let me go.
"That's not what I meant. We are supposed to at least maintain an illusion of camaraderie while around Suzumiya-san. The best ways to do that would be to either do what we are now or refer to one another through either nicknames or our given names."
Fine then, PRINCESS. How about I refer to you as PRINCESS from now on?
Once again, the sound of laughter pierces my eardrum. Please, stop doing that.
"Itsuko is fine. Please. Say my name."
I mutter "Itsuko" under my breath.
"You're going to have to say it a little louder than that."
I... Itsuko.
"Once more."
Itsuko...
"That's good! Once more, with feeling!"
... Itsu... Hey, wait. I did it three times already!
"I suppose you did."
As I was released, I found myself unable to gather the strength needed to remain standing, so I fell to my knees, using my hands for added support.
"However, I want you to refer to me as 'Itsuko' starting today."
And if I don't?
"I think the alternative is obvious."
As I pulled myself to my feet, I wondered if... Itsuko was put up to this by Haruki. Damn it, why did I ever talk to that idiot?!
Brilliant. :-) You deserve points for this. I just wish I could give them to you right now.
I think this is one of the main problem. For consistance sake, having her only hcalling Itsuko by the name is strange. At last in the first novel they weren't that close (no more then, say, Kunikida and Taniguchi). Also, you can say she is not really close to T&K, but she did hand up with then for one moth before befriend Haruki. And even goes to school with Taniguchi.
Consistancy aside; we seem to be playing with the idea that guys and girls socialize differently; girls being less self-loathing than guys in intimacy. So under the right conditions, Kyonko might refer to Itsuko by first name, whereas there's no chance of Kyon doing so with Itsuki. As to the possible conditions, well, I stand by my retaliation theory.
Still, we could save a lot of effort by having consistant behaviour between Kyon and Kyonko.
Still, we could save a lot of effort by having consistant behaviour between Kyon and Kyonko.
Yeah, why so much rationalization to it? The thing about playing with how girls are more open to friends don't work because of T&K and Sasaki. The feeling is not 'Kyonko is more open to her friends then Kyon' but 'Kyonko is more open to Itsuko then Kyon is to Itsuki'. This seen like a excuse to more yuri feeling.
PP:
Not saying it is an excuse to more yuri (Kaisos seens to not like how Itsuko is seen by most fans). But feel like that.
Kaisos Erranon
2009-08-26, 14:27
Heatth, please. We could argue about this forever. Just let it go, for the fucking love of god, just let it go.
Is Kyonko just a Tsundere archetype instead of being an actual Gender-bent Kyon?
She has tsundere traits, but that's not the point of her character.
/EDIT Alternatively, is Kyon a male tsundere unrecognizable as a tsundere due to gender?
Same as above. He has certain tsundere traits, but isn't a male tsundere.
All of Tanigawa's characters have that emotional deniability thing going on. He said it makes for more interesting characters.
Heatth, please. We could argue about this forever. Just let it go, for the fucking love of god, just let it go.
We can argue anything forever. Yet, we have reached many consensus the last past discussions. Also, is not like I am not only one saying it. Now I am curious, why you don't want to discuss it?
As I said, verything said here seen more like a rationalization then really arguments.
You (people how wants to keep like that) said "Girl are more open to her friends"
I said "Don't work, because she only display that behaviout toward Itsuko"
You said "She is close to Itsuko"
I said "So is Kyon, but he never showed it. Also, Kyonko wouldn't want show closeness to the girl who creeps her"
You said "Helps to differentiate from male Koizumi"
I said "This make sense, actually. This don't prevent Mitsuru and Yuuki being called 'Asahina' and 'Nagato' though."
Most of this arguments sound to me more like "I want her being called 'Itsuko' and I am making arguments on spot to justify it.". (not saying it is, but really sound like that to me.)
Then I should ask: Why? Why her being called 'Itsuko' is so inportant?
For me, the answer is: I think Kyon only call Haruhi as a sig of her being closer to him then anyone else (including Itsuki, btw). He likes her (not necesserly romanticly) and trust her more then the others and that should be the same to Kyonko and Haruki. Also, it is a bit awkward she calling Itsuko by her first name but not her other friends.
PP:
Oh, yeah I agree with you, Kaisos, about the tsundere thing. I can't really see the difference you made about 'being a tsundere' and 'having tsundere traits'. If 'being' one means only being a tsundere, or having it as a good word to describe Kyon/ko wholle personality, then I agree they are not a tsundere. The same would go for Haruhi, however.
Could go with the "befriending" theory. Though Kyonko might know about Nanoha and Fate to be able to give a snarky remark or reference much like Kyon has been giving Gundam, Macross, and Eva references.
Kaisos Erranon
2009-08-26, 15:17
We're not changing how we've referred to Itsuko from the beginning. That's final, so please, please stop bringing up the issue.
WE DO NOT NEED TO JUSTIFY EVERYTHING WE DO.
That is all. Now please, let's stop discussing this.
Basically that means you don't want to go back and try to hunt down every instance of the work "Itsuko" spoken by Kyonko and adjust it because it would take a month at least to hunt them all down in context and all. Plus you don't want to have to find a place to put a justification into a story because then you'd have to find were or if there was a switching in how Itsuko is refered to by Kyonko.
Basically.
Kaisos Erranon
2009-08-26, 15:35
And I wouldn't do it even if I had the energy to do so.
And you want justifications, Heatth?
Honestly, if I knew T&K's first names? I'd have her refer to them as such.
But we don't so we're stuck like this. Maybe Kyonko simply doesn't consider them friends, while she considers Itsuko one. You'll note Itsuko is generally less creepy than Itsuki is.
So. I ask you, why shouldn't she call Itsuko by her first name? They're close, Itsuko is the only girl in the brigade, she's the only one Kyonko can really talk to about her problems... and she, like I said, unlike her male counterpart, considers Itsuko an actual friend.
For that matter, about Haruki being 'special' to her... at this point, before the end of Sighs, he really isn't. In fact, I'd say that she hates him.
No sane girl would be more than physically attracted to him at this point. There is some emotional attachment, but honestly, he makes her life hell.
Only after the end of Sighs, and Live Alive, after he starts to grow up, does Kyonko start becoming truly attracted to him. Though she'll never admit it.
That good enough for you?
We're not changing how we've referred to Itsuko from the beginning. That's final, so please, please stop bringing up the issue.
WE DO NOT NEED TO JUSTIFY EVERYTHING WE DO.
That is all. Now please, let's stop discussing this.
Exept pretty much everthing was justified. I am just asking the 'why' now.
This is probably the best asnwer:
Basically that means you don't want to go back and try to hunt down every instance of the work "Itsuko" spoken by Kyonko and adjust it because it would take a month at least to hunt them all down in context and all. Plus you don't want to have to find a place to put a justification into a story because then you'd have to find were or if there was a switching in how Itsuko is refered to by Kyonko.
Basically.
PP:
And I wouldn't do it even if I had the energy to do so.
And you want justifications, Heatth?
Honestly, if I knew T&K's first names? I'd have her refer to them as such.
But we don't so we're stuck like this. Maybe Kyonko simply doesn't consider them friends, while she considers Itsuko one. You'll note Itsuko is generally less creepy than Itsuki is.
So. I ask you, why shouldn't she call Itsuko by her first name? They're close, Itsuko is the only girl in the brigade, she's the only one Kyonko can really talk to about her problems... and she, like I said, unlike her male counterpart, considers Itsuko an actual friend.
For that matter, about Haruki being 'special' to her... at this point, before the end of Sighs, he really isn't. In fact, I'd say that she hates him.
No sane girl would be more than physically attracted to him at this point. There is some emotional attachment, but honestly, he makes her life hell.
Only after the end of Sighs, and Live Alive, after he starts to grow up, does Kyonko start becoming truly attracted to him. Though she'll never admit it.
That good enough for you?
Actually, yes it is. So, the point is the relationship between Kyonko and Itsuko Iis different from Kyon and Itsuki? And the same goes for Kyonko and Haruki? Actually, this make sense. While Kyon genually like Haruhi from the start, the same don't really happens for Kyonko? Cause Haruki is a jerk (well, Haruhi is too, but she is a girl)?
Thanks a lot, really.
Kaisos Erranon
2009-08-26, 15:38
See above...
Triple_R
2009-08-26, 15:42
And I wouldn't do it even if I had the energy to do so.
And you want justifications, Heatth?
Honestly, if I knew T&K's first names? I'd have her refer to them as such.
I agree with you here.
I know that Heatth and others have refused to accept it, but on the whole, Japanese female characters do call each other by given names moreso than Japanese male characters do.
I'm not about to sift through dozens upon dozens of animes to demonstrate this numerically, and I'll admit that of course there are exceptions to the rule, but I'm almost positive that, on the whole, Japanese girls tend to call each other by their given name more than Japanese guys do. I've watched a lot of anime, and this is a definite impression that I've gotten over time.
This alone is reason enough for me to be perfectly comfortable with Kyonko refering to Itsuko as Itsuko while Kyon refers to Itsuki as Koizumi.
Kaisos Erranon
2009-08-26, 15:44
Yes. In the end, boys and girls are different. :rolleyes:
Wasn't this one of the main points of Seitenkan anyway? To find out what happens because of the gender change? Or am I misremembering what I was there for in the first place?
I agree with you here.
I know that Heatth and others have refused to accept it, but on the whole, Japanese female characters do call each other by given names moreso than Japanese male characters do.
It is not about refusing to accept. Is just that, given she can't call T&K by their names, calling Itsuko by her make it automatically awkward. It just that, given the ciscunstance, it doesn't really work.
Anyway, I edited my post, you guys post too fst (or I am too slow)
PP:
Yes. In the end, boys and girls are different. :rolleyes:
Wasn't this one of the main points of Seitenkan anyway? To find out what happens because of the gender change? Or am I misremembering what I was there for in the first place?
The point is I really fail in see how the gender matter here. Also, as I said, the main point is not this was T&K and, specially, Haruki. You explained the latter pretty well.
(Can you stop posting in less the 3 minutes, please? I can't rea/write that fast :p)
Kaisos Erranon
2009-08-26, 15:50
Actually, yes it is. So, the point is the relationship between Kyonko and Itsuko Iis different from Kyon and Itsuki? And the same goes for Kyonko and Haruki? Actually, this make sense. While Kyon genually like Haruhi from the start, the same don't really happens for Kyonko? Cause Haruki is a jerk (well, Haruhi is too, but she is a girl)?
Yesssss.
Generally, Kyon is shallow where Kyonko is... still shallow, but not nearly as much. She's also a fair bit more open to interpersonal relationships. As a trade-off, she's quicker to anger.
Kyon =/= Kyonko.
Haruhi =/= Haruki.
Mikuru =/= Mitsuuru.
Itsuki =/= Itsuko.
Yuki == Yuuki. Wait...
You see my point, however.
The point is I really fail in see how the gender matter here. Also, as I said, the main point is not this was T&K and, specially, Haruki. You explained the latter pretty well.
Boys and girls are different. Gender is the basis for everything. Butterfly Effect.
This alone should be enough explanation for you, but...
Actually, I thought one of the things were keep the main points by change the situation. So, Kyonko is still protective to Mitsuru, but now not because of a crush, but because a sisterly afection. Similarly, I thought the basis of the relation between Haruki and Kyonko was the same as Haruhi and Kyon (obviously, is hard to tell because Kyon still acts as he didn't lik Haruhi, even it don't being true).
*cough* On a change of topic, I'm now kicking myself for not recognizing the computer game/web page as a metaphor for the VN itself. Assuming I'm right, it'd be awesome if the player could actually use it to understand the paths in the VN. Might be beyond Ren'py's abilities, though.
Also, starting to question my previous opinion on the Voices in Shadow and greentext. Still not sure what I think, though.
Also, awesome little scene, Kogetsu. I can completely picture Itsuko doing something like that, too...
EDIT: Oh, and just a curiosity on my part after rereading The Grass is Always Greener, has anyone else noticed how often women's lips are described as tasting like strawberries? Why is this? Is there something I'm missing in all the kissing I've done?
I am so large that I break light speed whenever I move.
And so Kyonko becomes the TTGL?
It's refreshing to reread this after my head has cleared from the first time through... so many details I missed.
*cough* On a change of topic, I'm now kicking myself for not recognizing the computer game/web page as a metaphor for the VN itself. Assuming I'm right, it'd be awesome if the player could actually use it to understand the paths in the VN. Might be beyond Ren'py's abilities, though.
Is more probably being beyond the programers's abilities then Ren'py's, actually. Actually, if we keep the the random symbols still, or at last moving robticly, it is kinda easy, I believe. It depends how many fancy effects Kaisos wants on it.
Also, starting to question my previous opinion on the Voices in Shadow and greentext. Still not sure what I think, though.
Pst then. It is interesting see what people think. (sinse I can't speculate by myself now).
By the way, in another change of subject, the player's pov is aways Kyon when Kyonko is nearby right? I am wondering if it might be a good idea keep changing during their dialogues.
Like, in the shoes lock scene, first Kyon arrives and say something to Kyonko. Then, we hear Kyonko's thought now and some more lines, then change to Kyon. The choices appear and just after we pick one it change back to Kyonko and so on...
Might be interesting to show both thoughts of the discussion, as we were playing both during the game. Don't really know if it would work though.
Ahem. Here to derail the topic some more: 'Suzumiya Haruki no Setsubun' will be coming to an end soon. At the very least, I'd like to compile the various chapters into one big document for easier reading. I'd love fanart to add to the thing. ^^ Is there anyone here of artistic inclinations who would like to make an illustration or two?
A Makuro ilustration! It needs to be a Makuro ilustration! However, the few artist we have are kinda busy wth the VN, I believe?
Roger Rambo
2009-08-26, 17:32
Ahem. Here to derail the topic some more: 'Suzumiya Haruki no Setsubun' will be coming to an end soon. At the very least, I'd like to compile the various chapters into one big document for easier reading. I'd love fanart to add to the thing. ^^ Is there anyone here of artistic inclinations who would like to make an illustration or two?
Fucking A.
Kaisos Erranon
2009-08-26, 17:48
Hey guys, remember this request?
Off-the-current-topic:
Another "Lol Itsuko theorizing" scene is coming up in the VN... due to the responses last time, I thought I'd ask:
What random, yet relevant theories do you want to hear Itsuko spout out, for those who have been paying attention? Anything else you want to hear?
This is the Seitenkan Brigade's "We're Stuck in Another World, what the fuck is going on Meeting" so I'd love the help, if possible.
Please?
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-08-26, 17:50
Well, this is kinda totally overlly gay. :heh:
Well then, if I'm capable of making a scene where Itsuko is intentionally presenting a scenario Kyonko won't like in order to get a more favorable result seem like something else entirely, I may be a much better writer than I thought when it comes to the character. Then again...
This made me think of another kind of befriending was going on.:heh:
... perhaps a Nanoha reference was a little counterproductive. :heh:
vivify93
2009-08-26, 18:05
No sane girl would be more than physically attracted to him at this point. There is some emotional attachment, but honestly, he makes her life hell.
Heh, that's actually pretty good though. Man, I could picture myself in the Seitenkan Brigade.
Me: *sees Haruki staring at him with a sour look on his face*
Haruki: ...
Me: *sigh* What?
Haruki: You're fat.
Me: -_-
Kyonko: Welcome to the club.
Haruki: No, seriously, are all people in the West this fat? How the hell has America not collapsed into a black hole unto itself due to all the weight!?
I'll stop now. :heh:
Boys and girls are different.
...Srsly? Wow, I thought the only difference between boys and girls is that boys liked beef and girls liked chicken! :(
Nyoro~n.
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-08-26, 18:07
Me: *sees Haruki staring at him with a sour look on his face*
Haruki: ...
Me: *sigh* What?
Haruki: You're fat.
Me: -_-
Kyonko: Welcome to the club.
Haruki: No, seriously, are all people in the West this fat? How the hell has America not collapsed into a black hole unto itself due to all the weight!?
... Is it okay to laugh? :heh:
vivify93
2009-08-26, 18:10
Yes, Kogetsu, it's OK to laugh. :p It was intended to be moderately funny, at least.
DJ_RockmanX
2009-08-26, 18:31
Hey guys, remember this request?
Off-the-current-topic:
Another "Lol Itsuko theorizing" scene is coming up in the VN... due to the responses last time, I thought I'd ask:
What random, yet relevant theories do you want to hear Itsuko spout out, for those who have been paying attention? Anything else you want to hear?
This is the Seitenkan Brigade's "We're Stuck in Another World, what the fuck is going on Meeting" so I'd love the help, if possible.
Please?
This is the part where you people come to the aid of our writer yo.
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-08-26, 18:34
Someone did provide a suggestion, though... then the name sidetracking happened. I really don't have much to offer in terms of random theorizing, so I can't really help in that regard. :heh:
DJ_RockmanX
2009-08-26, 18:49
I think Kaisos is looking for something along the lines of writeups. Something to go by and integrate into the scene. You know.
Triple_R
2009-08-26, 18:52
Unfortunately, Koizumi's psychobabble/pseudo-philosophy is something that I usually struggle at writing - it's one of my biggest challenges when doing Haruhi fanfics. That being said, I'll try to think of something.
Well, something that might be prime on the list of things for her to theorize about:
Why could Mitsuuru contact the future while Nagato could not?
I'm trying to work on ideas, but... I have trouble thinking as a Koizumi :uhoh:
HikariNiwa
2009-08-26, 19:05
Allow me to give a half-hearted attempt. I'm just writing whatever happens to enter my mind. Plus tired.
Itsuko: Previously, we assumed that this world was created by our Suzumiya-san, however this is not the case. As per our observations, it seems that the possibility that this world may be the original world while ours is but a reflection of it is rather high. However, the fact remains that the Suzumiya-san of our world and the Suzumiya-san of this world seem to retain the same powers. Obviously, this raises a few questions. For one, how could the Suzumiya-san here create an alternate version of herself without the knowledge of her own powers? If she was aiming to create an exact yet genderbent replica of herself, our Suzumiya-san would not possess the powers he currently holds. Normally, such a thing could be dismissed with the assumption that our worlds are merely existing in parallel universes; that is, in this world we have the opposite genders, and in ours we don't. Unfortunately, we can not do that. This is due to the fact that our world seems to be collapsing toward this world, which could only happen if our world is an existence held up by this world's Suzumiya-san. Thus, we can assume that eventually, our world will cease to exist if the Suzumiya-san of this world grows to abandon it. Which is why this situation is very much dire; unless we can prevent Suzumiya-san from dropping our existence from her mind, we will cease to exist.
Wait is this really one of Itsuko's theories? It sounds more like a call to arms. Plus there's no psycho-babble or any scientific theories used either, I guess this one is just no good. ┐( ¯-¯)┌
Triple_R
2009-08-26, 19:19
Allow me to give a half-hearted attempt. I'm just writing whatever happens to enter my mind. Plus tired.
- Previously, we assumed that this world was created by our Suzumiya-san, however this is not the case. As per our observations, it seems that the possibility that this world may be the original world while ours is but a reflection of it is rather high. However, the fact remains that the Suzumiya-san of our world and the Suzumiya-san of this world seem to retain the same powers. Obviously, this raises a few questions. For one, how could the Suzumiya-san here create an alternate version of herself without the knowledge of her own powers? If she was aiming to create an exact yet genderbent replica of herself, our Suzumiya-san would not possess the powers he currently holds. Normally, such a thing could be dismissed with the assumption that our worlds are merely existing in parallel universes; that is, in this world we have the opposite genders, and in ours we don't. Unfortunately, we can not do that. This is due to the fact that our world seems to be collapsing toward this world, which could only happen if our world is an existence held up by this world's Suzumiya-san. Thus, we can assume that eventually, our world will cease to exist if the Suzumiya-san of this world grows to abandon it. Which is why this situation is very much dire; unless we can prevent Suzumiya-san from dropping our existence from her mind, we will cease to exist. -
Wait is this really one of Itsuko's theories? It sounds more like a call to arms. Plus there's no psycho-babble or any scientific theories used either, I guess this one is just no good. ┐( ¯-¯)┌
Actually, it's very good. It reminds me quite a bit of DC's Crisis on Infinite Earths... aahhh, those were the good old days in western comics. :D
Anyway, your post made me think of two questions that Itsuko could raise...
Can Haruhi create a rock (Haruki, in this case) that she can't lift? ;)
What happens when the irresistable force (Haruhi) meets the immovable object (Haruki)?
Which of the two is ultimately more powerful? That strikes me as something that Itsuko would openly theorize about, and it's a natural extension of your own writing here.
HikariNiwa
2009-08-26, 19:23
Actually, it's very good. It reminds me quite a bit of DC's Crisis on Infinite Earths... aahhh, those were the good old days in western comics. :D
Anyway, your post made me think of two questions that Itsuko could raise...
Can Haruhi create a rock (Haruki, in this case) that she can't lift? ;)
What happens when the irresistable force (Haruhi) meets the immovable object (Haruki)?
Which of the two is ultimately more powerful? That strikes me as something that Itsuko would openly theorize about, and it's a natural extension of your own writing here.
Oh, a positive response right off the bat.
Well there is a battle between Haruhi and Haruki in one of the routes, but I don't believe they are both immovable. Rather, the strength of their power seems to come from how much they believe in it. This is why everything around Haruhi isn't changing to her liking every time she thinks because she has common sense; that is, she doesn't actually believe supernatural things will happen around her, even if she wants them.
swtrooper42
2009-08-26, 19:47
Allow me to give a half-hearted attempt. I'm just writing whatever happens to enter my mind. Plus tired.
- Previously, we assumed that this world was created by our Suzumiya-san, however this is not the case. As per our observations, it seems that the possibility that this world may be the original world while ours is but a reflection of it is rather high. However, the fact remains that the Suzumiya-san of our world and the Suzumiya-san of this world seem to retain the same powers. Obviously, this raises a few questions. For one, how could the Suzumiya-san here create an alternate version of herself without the knowledge of her own powers? If she was aiming to create an exact yet genderbent replica of herself, our Suzumiya-san would not possess the powers he currently holds. Normally, such a thing could be dismissed with the assumption that our worlds are merely existing in parallel universes; that is, in this world we have the opposite genders, and in ours we don't. Unfortunately, we can not do that. This is due to the fact that our world seems to be collapsing toward this world, which could only happen if our world is an existence held up by this world's Suzumiya-san. Thus, we can assume that eventually, our world will cease to exist if the Suzumiya-san of this world grows to abandon it. Which is why this situation is very much dire; unless we can prevent Suzumiya-san from dropping our existence from her mind, we will cease to exist. -
Wait is this really one of Itsuko's theories? It sounds more like a call to arms. Plus there's no psycho-babble or any scientific theories used either, I guess this one is just no good. ┐( ¯-¯)┌
But that just raises further questions. (This is half questions from me/ half Itsuko theorizing. But it's good it works both ways.)
Suppose Haruhi managed to create an exact copy of herself (except for the gender) right down to the extent of her powers. Surely this exact copy has the power to sustain his plane of existence on his own.
Also remember that the last time there was a battle among the gods (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnar%C3%B6k) the entire earth was almost destroyed and had to be rebuilt.
(So throw in some apocalypse stuff. It always serves to add tension.)
HikariNiwa
2009-08-26, 19:54
But that just raises further questions. (This is half questions from me/ half Itsuko theorizing. But it's good it works both ways.)
Suppose Haruhi managed to create an exact copy of herself (except for the gender) right down to the extent of her powers. Surely this exact copy has the power to sustain his plane of existence on his own.
Also remember that the last time there was a battle among the gods (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnar%C3%B6k) the entire earth was almost destroyed and had to be rebuilt.
(So throw in some apocalypse stuff. It always serves to add tension.)
But I don't want to write. ┐( ¯3¯)┌
Let's ask Kaisos! ⊂(ﾟヮﾟ)⊃ Yes Kaisos, I saw you on the active users list.
I hope he uses refresh.
ok i know everyone's sick of the discussion about the name thing, and it kinda goes into the whole kyon/ko thing about being antisocial verse being a little more open to and intrested in interpersonal reationships.
This might be just because of the way it's written but kyon rarely if ever talks to anyone other than the brigade, or T&K w/o provaction. He's kinda stand offish and doesn't seem to go around trying to make friends outside of his little bubble, take the haruhi accident as sort of a curiousity killed the cat kind of thing.
you notice that they almost always seem to eat @ kyon's desk, which makes me wonder it might be that taniguchi has such a big mouth that most of the rest of the class avoid him for that reason, kyon just mearly tollerates it because people might think him more strange for not have anyone to talk to @ lunch. The same could be said for kunikaida, he could just be the person that the kyon's eat lunch w/ for no other reason then to not have any prying questions.
So you could reason that Kyon, and thereby we don't know T&K's names is that he simply doesn't care enough to get involved w/ them that closely. Mind you this becomes a problem in the seitieken world because although kyonko is a bit of an ice queen she's not a total snob and cares a bit more for trying to foster reationships.
And to be perfectly honest the kyon's if not put in the situation that they are in aren't that amusing, the only time the deadpan snarker is likeable is when they are put w/ their antiesis where we can laugh as their cool i don't give a crap aditude can be shattered as they are drug/hauled around flailing or in a battle of the wits, cause most of kyon's problems lie in the fact he is ultimatly VERY lazy.
HikariNiwa
2009-08-26, 20:10
Continuing from my previous post on the theory:
Kyonko: I didn't really catch all of that, but if the female Haruki here can support our world, why can't Haruki?
Itsuko: Certainly, that is true. However, consider this; The Suzimiya-san of this world created our Suzumiya-san, giving him the exact same powers as herself. You understand that correct?
Kyonko: Well, I guess...
Itsuko: Then I will continue; as the Suzumiya-san of this world is the one who gave our Suzumiya-san his power, she is the one who is supplying him with those powers in the first place, therefore, if she no longer believes in our existence, our Suzumiya-san will also lose all of his powers, as they are connected to hers.
How about this?
Kaisos Erranon
2009-08-26, 20:16
But I don't want to write. ┐( ¯3¯)┌
Let's ask Kaisos! ⊂(ﾟヮﾟ)⊃ Yes Kaisos, I saw you on the active users list.
I hope he uses refresh.
Stop stalking me.
What do you want to know?
HikariNiwa
2009-08-26, 20:22
Stop stalking me.
What do you want to know?
By "ask", I meant "ask him to write it in place of me". Consult swtroopers previous post and the "theory" I wrote (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=2606923&postcount=19092).
Continuing from my previous post on the theory:
Kyonko: I didn't really catch all of that, but if the female Haruki here can support our world, why can't Haruki?
Itsuko: Certainly, that is true. However, consider this; The Suzimiya-san of this world created our Suzumiya-san, giving him the exact same powers as herself. You understand that correct?
Kyonko: Well, I guess...
Itsuko: Then I will continue; as the Suzumiya-san of this world is the one who gave our Suzumiya-san his power, she is the one who is supplying him with those powers in the first place, therefore, if she no longer believes in our existence, our Suzumiya-san will also lose all of his powers, as they are connected to hers.
How about this?
That sounds very much like what a Koizumi would theorize, and rather matches my vague thoughts on what they'd come up with...
Kaisos Erranon
2009-08-26, 20:29
By "ask", I meant "ask him to write it in place of me". Consult swtroopers previous post and the "theory" I wrote (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=2606923&postcount=19092).
Sure, okay.
HikariNiwa
2009-08-26, 20:33
Sure, okay.
Is my writing any good though? I always have second thoughts about what I write (4 out of 5 on the English AP test be damned).
Kaisos Erranon
2009-08-26, 20:38
Just give me a basis to work with.
And I have second thoughts about what I write too. I've learned to ignore the thoughts that don't matter.
HikariNiwa
2009-08-26, 21:07
Allow me to give a half-hearted attempt. I'm just writing whatever happens to enter my mind. Plus tired.
Itsuko: Previously, we assumed that this world was created by our Suzumiya-san, however this is not the case. As per our observations, it seems that the possibility that this world may be the original world while ours is but a reflection of it is rather high. However, the fact remains that the Suzumiya-san of our world and the Suzumiya-san of this world seem to retain the same powers. Obviously, this raises a few questions. For one, how could the Suzumiya-san here create an alternate version of herself without the knowledge of her own powers? If she was aiming to create an exact yet genderbent replica of herself, our Suzumiya-san would not possess the powers he currently holds. Normally, such a thing could be dismissed with the assumption that our worlds are merely existing in parallel universes; that is, in this world we have the opposite genders, and in ours we don't. Unfortunately, we can not do that. This is due to the fact that our world seems to be collapsing toward this world, which could only happen if our world is an existence held up by this world's Suzumiya-san. Thus, we can assume that eventually, our world will cease to exist if the Suzumiya-san of this world grows to abandon it. Which is why this situation is very much dire; unless we can prevent Suzumiya-san from dropping our existence from her mind, we will cease to exist.
Wait is this really one of Itsuko's theories? It sounds more like a call to arms. Plus there's no psycho-babble or any scientific theories used either, I guess this one is just no good. ┐( ¯-¯)┌
Continuing from my previous post on the theory:
Kyonko: I didn't really catch all of that, but if the female Haruki here can support our world, why can't Haruki?
Itsuko: Certainly, that is true. However, consider this; The Suzimiya-san of this world created our Suzumiya-san, giving him the exact same powers as herself. You understand that correct?
Kyonko: Well, I guess...
Itsuko: Then I will continue; as the Suzumiya-san of this world is the one who gave our Suzumiya-san his power, she is the one who is supplying him with those powers in the first place, therefore, if she no longer believes in our existence, our Suzumiya-san will also lose all of his powers, as they are connected to hers.
How about this?
Actually, it's very good. It reminds me quite a bit of DC's Crisis on Infinite Earths... aahhh, those were the good old days in western comics. :D
Anyway, your post made me think of two questions that Itsuko could raise...
Can Haruhi create a rock (Haruki, in this case) that she can't lift? ;)
What happens when the irresistable force (Haruhi) meets the immovable object (Haruki)?
Which of the two is ultimately more powerful? That strikes me as something that Itsuko would openly theorize about, and it's a natural extension of your own writing here.
But that just raises further questions. (This is half questions from me/ half Itsuko theorizing. But it's good it works both ways.)
Suppose Haruhi managed to create an exact copy of herself (except for the gender) right down to the extent of her powers. Surely this exact copy has the power to sustain his plane of existence on his own.
Also remember that the last time there was a battle among the gods (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnar%C3%B6k) the entire earth was almost destroyed and had to be rebuilt.
(So throw in some apocalypse stuff. It always serves to add tension.)
Consider everything above this sentence. If you find it adequate, can you write the scene using this as a base?
Kaisos Erranon
2009-08-26, 21:19
I can use that stuff, but I'd like a bit more.
But if that's all you guys can muster, that's fine. I'll do the rest.
Triple_R
2009-08-26, 21:32
Let me try to add something brief to what HikariNiwa just wrote...
My edit is in bold... followed by my new suggested additions.
Kyonko: I didn't really catch all of that, but if the female Haruki here can support our world, why can't Haruki?
Itsuko: Certainly, that is true. However, consider this; The Suzimiya-san of this world created our Suzumiya-san, giving him the exact same powers as herself. You understand that correct?
Kyonko: Well, I guess...
Itsuko: Then I will continue; as the Suzumiya-san of this world is the one who gave our Suzumiya-san his power, she is the one who is supplying him with those powers in the first place, therefore, if she no longer wishes for him to have powers, then our Suzumiya-san will also lose all of his powers, as they are connected to hers. ...Unless...
Itsuko placed her chin in her left hand for a second, and I could tell that she was straining to properly evaluate all the possibilities that she could discern, as usual.
Kyonko: Yes, please go on.
Itsuko:... Well, there perhaps is a certain unquantifiable chance that the Suzumiya-san of this world is no longer in contact with the power that our Suzumiya-san has, and ergo, is unable to lessen or manipulate those powers from afar. In sharp contrast to what Einstein may expect a being like the Suzumiya-san of this world to do, perhaps that Suzumiya-san has chosen to play dice with our universe, as it is; infusing it and her male copy with immense power, and then allowing it to forever more play out as it will.
Kyonko: I... think that I like this second possibility better. It would mean that our universe is more... independent and self-sufficient, is that correct?
Itsuko: Probably. There are still many undetermined variables that I will need to find a way to account for in order to come to a firmer stance on just what is facing us. For the moment, however, it may be best to prepare for the worst.
I always hate it when Itsuko sounds like that...
HikariNiwa
2009-08-26, 21:39
Let me try to add something brief to what HikariNiwa just wrote...
My edit is in bold... followed by my new suggested additions.
Kyonko: I didn't really catch all of that, but if the female Haruki here can support our world, why can't Haruki?
Itsuko: Certainly, that is true. However, consider this; The Suzimiya-san of this world created our Suzumiya-san, giving him the exact same powers as herself. You understand that correct?
Kyonko: Well, I guess...
Itsuko: Then I will continue; as the Suzumiya-san of this world is the one who gave our Suzumiya-san his power, she is the one who is supplying him with those powers in the first place, therefore, if she no longer wishes for him to have powers, then our Suzumiya-san will also lose all of his powers, as they are connected to hers. ...Unless...
Itsuko placed her chin in her left hand for a second, and I could tell that she was straining to properly evaluate all the possibilities that she could discern, as usual.
Kyonko: Yes, please go on.
Itsuko:... Well, there perhaps is a certain unquantifiable chance that the Suzumiya-san of this world is no longer in contact with the power that our Suzumiya-san has, and ergo, is unable to lessen or manipulate those powers from afar. In sharp contrast to what Einstein may expect a being like the Suzumiya-san of this world to do, perhaps that Suzumiya-san has chosen to play dice with our universe, as it is; infusing it and her male copy with immense power, and then allowing it to forever more play out as it will.
Kyonko: I... think that I like this second possibility better. It would mean that our universe is more... independent and self-sufficient, is that correct?
Itsuko: Probably. There are still many undetermined variables that I will need to find a way to account for in order to come to a firmer stance on just what is facing us. For the moment, however, it may be best to prepare for the worst.
I always hate it when Itsuko sounds like that...
Someone finally adds detail to what I wrote, along with another argument that works just as well. I hadn't bothered adding anything else since I'm lazy (ノ゜ｰ゜)ノ
Triple_R
2009-08-26, 22:07
Someone finally adds detail to what I wrote, along with another argument that works just as well. I hadn't bothered adding anything else since I'm lazy (ノ゜ｰ゜)ノ
I find that Koizumi very rarely puts forward a serious cosmological theory with out offering up at least one alternative. I'm not good at writing up such a theory from scratch... but when I see one, it's not hard for me to simply have Koizumi offer up the anti-thesis, or an alternate theory of some sort at least. :)
Hopefully, Kaisos has enough now. :)
yggdrasil325
2009-08-26, 22:16
Hey guys, remember this request?
Please?
I posted yesterday that the multiverse would be a good basis for Itsuko technobabble. If you're looking for a write-up, though, I'm not the guy for the job. It would probably be something along the lines of "There are infinite parallel universes, differing mostly on the quantum level, and through the subconscious powers of one Suzumiya or the other, we seem to have been dragged to the universe where certain specific people's gender's are reversed."
besieger
2009-08-27, 01:12
Idea overshaodowed by a pointless debate.
Great. JUST GREAT.
It was HEISENBERG UNCERTAINTY PRINCIPLE.
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-08-27, 01:16
Hey, that was discussed... then... forgotten. It's not like we completely ignored it. :heh:
I posted yesterday that the multiverse would be a good basis for Itsuko technobabble. If you're looking for a write-up, though, I'm not the guy for the job. It would probably be something along the lines of "There are infinite parallel universes, differing mostly on the quantum level, and through the subconscious powers of one Suzumiya or the other, we seem to have been dragged to the universe where certain specific people's gender's are reversed."
I can see that tying in nicely with the constant, varying iterations from Endless Eight...
And, actually, given Kyonko's earlier theorizing on the existence of an infinite number of universes spawning from the varying choices she has made throughout her life (Trousers of Time, anyone?), I can see her joining in for once instead of being a bemused listener.
The way I roughly see that discussion going;
Kyon first brings up the idea of alternate universes.
Koizumi chimes in by expanding that into Everett's multiverse theory.
Asahina, the time travellers, points out that theory cannot be proven, and that Einstein's special relativity are all solved by assuming a single universe. When pointed out that time travellers violate/severely bend relativity theories by NOT being close-to-massless-at-speed-of-light, they go "classified information".
They then hit upon the idea that one of the universes were created; and Itsuki points out that since they all are in a universe where HARUHI is goddess; they are for all intents and purposes, the original. ("Her will is Imperative, Her reality is Law")
They then go to the aliens for their data analysis to confirm. Aliens reply that it is impossible to tell from available data, (This could be where we insert Heisenberg, though it'll be a stretch) but Yuuki admits that Itsuki's logic is sound, as far as Suzumiya is concerned; scaring the seitenkan SOS members.
We could also have a scared Mitsuuru asking Nagato to gather more data to confirm that deduction, and Yuuki offers to vaporize an experiment subject into quantum bits to cast into the quantum foam for more data. Obviously, there's no takers.
That's all I could figure for now.
By 'Itsuki' you mea Itsuko right? Because only he seitenkan brigade is awere of the two universes so far.
Also, just to make clear, Mitsuuru can't contact his future right? It don't exist in that world. Can he contact Mikuru's future insted? Th same goes for Yuuki, he can contact Yuki's ata Overmind, and even use it to jump around with Kyonko on his arms. But can he ask things to then, like in otai idea, or they wouldn't answer because he is a stranger. Or they misstook him by Yuki (as they are very similar)?
Asking it because some ideas (like scyfi's and otai's) are based on that questions.
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-08-27, 05:29
If Mitsuuru or Yuuki were able to contact their counterparts' groups, it really wouldn't do them a lot of good. Mitsuuru probably wouldn't be believed and Yuuki... would most likely be considered an anomaly and have several interfaces after the group, provided they don't take the direct approach of "Delete." :heh:
This is just how I see the scenarios happening, mind you. This is in no way indicative of the VN.
If Mitsuuru or Yuuki were able to contact their counterparts' groups, it really wouldn't do them a lot of good. Mitsuuru probably wouldn't be believed and Yuuki... would most likely be considered an anomaly and have several interfaces after the group, provided they don't take the direct approach of "Delete." :heh:
This is just how I see the scenarios happening, mind you. This is in no way indicative of the VN.
I agree with you. Tough the IDE probably is curious about the short appearance of Yuuki in Day3. Obviously, their 'curious' is probably a bad thing.
A scenariou of Yuuki protecting the Seitenkan brigade of attack from many interfaces wouldbe alsome, btw. And sad (cause he would obviously fail).
PP:
By the way, reposting the wikipedia article of Heisenberg uncertainty principle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle) (from besieger idea).
Hey, are you sluts making a visual novel? I'm a programmer.
swtrooper42
2009-08-27, 08:13
You'd have to ask Heatth, since he seems to be in charge of the programming that gets done around here.
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-08-27, 09:07
If you're skilled in... whatever Ren'py uses, I'm sure you'll be allowed on the programming staff. As far as I know, the only role we have less people assigned to/volunteering for is audio, but we aren't worrying about that part just yet. :heh:
Python? Shit, any shmuck can pick up a high-level programming language.
What this mean, exactly?
... You don't program much, do you?
Wait never mind, Ren'Py has it's own script. This can be so incredibly easy for me.
ALSO
Whoever is in charge of audio (Danchou?), I make music. Talk to me.
swtrooper42
2009-08-27, 10:08
What this mean, exactly?
I think he's saying that anyone can learn programming. He goes on to brag that he's the best thing to happen to programming since Donald Knuth.
I think he's saying that anyone can learn programming. He goes on to brag that he's the best thing to happen to programming since Donald Knuth.
Anyone can learn Ren'Py, it's painfully easy.
AND DONT YOU TAKE HIS NAME IN VAIN
CanadaAotS
2009-08-27, 10:28
I was trying to avoid playing up the yuri aspects of the scene. :heh:
Really? Good thing I wear my yuri goggles ALL THE TIME at maximum power.
That said, I quite enjoyed the scene :)
I was thinking about something.
Is Kyonko just a Tsundere archetype instead of being an actual Gender-bent Kyon?
Convince me otherwise.
/EDIT Alternatively, is Kyon a male tsundere unrecognizable as a tsundere due to gender?
You could say that they're both tsundere (Kyonko more so) but it's not a defining characteristic for them. Being snarky defines them a lot more then the odd tsun and dere moment they may have.
I'd take this moment to say the same applies to Haruhi. I've never thought of her as a tsundere really.
Asahina, the time travellers, points out that theory cannot be proven, and that Einstein's special relativity are all solved by assuming a single universe. When pointed out that time travellers violate/severely bend relativity theories by NOT being close-to-massless-at-speed-of-light, they go "classified information".
Time travelers can be annoying sometimes lol. "I can talk physics until you mention that time traveling should be impossible, then suddenly LOL CLASSIFIED"
I think he's saying that anyone can learn programming. He goes on to brag that he's the best thing to happen to programming since Donald Knuth.
To be fair, anyone can learn high-level language programming. It's like writing in fairly careful, unambiguous English. You just got to read up on what the specific "rules" are.
Not saying it's a cake-walk, but anyone should be able to pick it up. Heatth is one of the main programmers, and the guy didn't know any languages till this project lol. Ditto to Danchou iirc.
HikariNiwa
2009-08-27, 10:49
Anyone can learn Ren'Py, it's painfully easy.
AND DONT YOU TAKE HIS NAME IN VAIN
The only people who can't are people like me; as in people who are too lazy to even go look up how Ren'Py works (ノ゜ｰ゜)ノ
EDIT: Oh, and CanadaAotS? Nice avi. I just hope that isn't directed at me.
Here's my try at writing something, based off of several of the ideas we've put forward. If you use it, it'll probably need to be edited to sound more like the characters, though:
Kyonko: ... I was thinking the other day about a theory I once heard: that each choice you make spawns a new universe where you've made a different choice. This leads to an infinite number of universes where all possible choices are played out.
Itsuko: I take it the events of the end of the summer brought this to mind?
Kyonko: ... Yes. What if, instead of looping back, each of those iterations of our group (Yes, I know that doesn't really sound like Kyonko... but I have no clue how to write it so it does.) continued on with their existence, living out their lives? How many different lives are they living that we don't know about?
A cloud passes over Itsuko's face for a second and her smile dims... but then the moment is gone, the know-it-all grin back in full force.
Itsuko: So something akin to the Many Worlds theory in quantum mechanics? Technobabble that I'm not qualified to write...
Mitsuruu: *something Scully-ish*
Loop here into what HikariNiwa and the others have worked out...
Itsuko: Alternatively, there could be multiple self-sustaining universes, a number of which have managed to produce some form of Haruki, perhaps male, perhaps female, with or without his powers. It would seem as if this universe we find ourselves in is one where some people, perhaps only those within and surrounding the SOS brigade, are of the opposite gender. Given Kyon and Nagato's experience when they were here, it is surmisable that this version of Haruki shares his powers, as it is clear that something that is at least similar to the Integrated Data Entity exists. Correct?
Nagato nods briefly. He did mention that he was connected to something while we were jumping around the school building, didn't he...
Probably some other stuff...
Thoughts?
HikariNiwa
2009-08-27, 11:29
Here's my try at writing something, based off of several of the ideas we've put forward. If you use it, it'll probably need to be edited to sound more like the characters, though:
Kyonko: ... I was thinking the other day about a theory I once heard: that each choice you make spawns a new universe where you've made a different choice. This leads to an infinite number of universes where all possible choices are played out.
Itsuko: I take it the events of the end of the summer brought this to mind?
Kyonko: ... Yes. What if, instead of looping back, each of those iterations of our group (Yes, I know that doesn't really sound like Kyonko... but I have no clue how to write it so it does.) continued on with their existence, living out their lives? How many different lives are they living that we don't know about?
A cloud passes over Itsuko's face for a second and her smile dims... but then the moment is gone, the know-it-all grin back in full force.
Itsuko: So something akin to the Many Worlds theory in quantum mechanics? Technobabble that I'm not qualified to write...
Mitsuruu: *something Scully-ish*
Loop here into what HikariNiwa and the others have worked out...
Itsuko: Alternatively, there could be multiple self-sustaining universes, a number of which have managed to produce some form of Haruki, perhaps male, perhaps female, with or without his powers. It would seem as if this universe we find ourselves in is one where some people, perhaps only those within and surrounding the SOS brigade, are of the opposite gender. Given Kyon and Nagato's experience when they were here, it is surmisable that this version of Haruki shares his powers, as it is clear that something that is at least similar to the Integrated Data Entity exists. Correct?
Nagato nods briefly. He did mention that he was connected to something while we were jumping around the school building, didn't he...
Probably some other stuff...
Thoughts?
I for one think it's pretty good, although you're right on Kyonko not exactly sounding like herself.
I'm not sure what evidence Itsuko would be using to come up with the conclusion that the Seitenkan universe was created by Haruhi. It feels off to not have a theory involving Haruhi's universe having been created by Haruki, so I'll make a little write-up of that.
Kyonko: So what are you saying? That either we exist because some girl-Haruhi got bored and created us or it's all some big coincidence that we got summoned here? I'm not buying it.
Itsuko: Of course, those are not the only possibilities. Just as it is possible that the version of Haruki native to this universe created our world, it is possible that our Haruki created this world. That we were summoned here could be a result of this universe's version of Haruki attempting to steal the powers of our Haruki.
I like that theory a lot better! Say the good theory first, next time!
Kyonko: But if this universe's version of Haruki is trying to steal our Haruki's powers, then why am I the one that keeps getting pulled over?
Itsuko: Hm... If that is the case then it is probable that this universe's version of Haruki - let's called her "Haruna" for short, is simply incapable of pulling the real Haruki out of his universe. Haruki isn't resisting Haruna's theft of his powers because he doesn't know anything is going on, but she can't pull him into a different universe because that goes against Haruki's common sense.
Kyonko: What about me? You forgot the part about why I'm being pulled here.
Itsuko: Ah, yes, that is important. Perhaps because you are the person closest to Haruki-
Liar! (Or other generally displeased statement)
Itsuko: -you have been locked onto as the nearest equivalent to him.
Kyonko: That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
Itsuko: *Laugh.* Does it really not? Then how about this? Haruna's feelings for this universe's version of you have been transmitted from this universe to ours and pulled you here.
Kyonko: That... is very creepy.
It occurred to me while writing that it may be odd for Itsuko to refer to Haruki by his given name (since I think she usually uses his family name), but I think it's justified here because they're discussing two different Suzumiyas. Also, I wrote it on the assumption that Itsuko was the first to find Kyonko and the two were alone. That could of course be changed.
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-08-27, 11:55
Well, the thing is, they're in Haruhi's world, not Haruki's. I'd say that fact lends more to the possibility that Haruhi's the one that did the alternate universe creating. :heh:
...it is probable that this universe's version of Haruki - let's call her "Haruna" for short...Made me think of Haruna "Paru" Saotome. Well, Haruhi's probably just as pervy, so it might not be that surprising...:heh:
Well, the thing is, they're in Haruhi's world, not Haruki's. I'd say that fact lends more to the possibility that Haruhi's the one that did the alternate universe creating. :heh:
Maybe, maybe not. If Haruki messed up and created Haruhi as someone who could genuinely challenge him and Haruhi has been stealing his power, that could explain the Kyonko being shifted over to Haruhi's world. if you made enough stuff up.
But mostly, I wrote that conversation because I find it implausible that they would so readily consider that their world is a fake without trying to find a way to say that Haruhi's world is the fake. Learning your world is a fake would probably be pretty traumatizing, so I imagine they'd be trying to figure out every way that might not be the case.
I'm not sure what evidence Itsuko would be using to come up with the conclusion that the Seitenkan universe was created by Haruhi. It feels off to not have a theory involving Haruhi's universe having been created by Haruki, so I'll make a little write-up of that.
Kyonko: So what are you saying? That either we exist because some girl-Haruhi got bored and created us or it's all some big coincidence that we got summoned here? I'm not buying it.
Itsuko: Of course, those are not the only possibilities. Just as it is possible that the version of Haruki native to this universe created our world, it is possible that our Haruki created this world. That we were summoned here could be a result of this universe's version of Haruki attempting to steal the powers of our Haruki.
I like that theory a lot better! Say the good theory first, next time!
Kyonko: But if this universe's version of Haruki is trying to steal our Haruki's powers, then why am I the one that keeps getting pulled over?
Itsuko: Hm... If that is the case then it is probable that this universe's version of Haruki - let's called her "Haruna" for short, is simply incapable of pulling the real Haruki out of his universe. Haruki isn't resisting Haruna's theft of his powers because he doesn't know anything is going on, but she can't pull him into a different universe because that goes against Haruki's common sense.
Kyonko: What about me? You forgot the part about why I'm being pulled here.
Itsuko: Ah, yes, that is important. Perhaps because you are the person closest to Haruki-
Liar! (Or other generally displeased statement)
Itsuko: -you have been locked onto as the nearest equivalent to him.
Kyonko: That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
Itsuko: *Laugh.* Does it really not? Then how about this? Haruna's feelings for this universe's version of you have been transmitted from this universe to ours and pulled you here.
Kyonko: That... is very creepy.
It occurred to me while writing that it may be odd for Itsuko to refer to Haruki by his given name (since I think she usually uses his family name), but I think it's justified here because they're discussing two different Suzumiyas. Also, I wrote it on the assumption that Itsuko was the first to find Kyonko and the two were alone. That could of course be changed.
The thing is Itsuko already went for 'the female Haruki might have created the world' in the other scene. This is probably to be a foil to Mitsuru, who don't even want to think aout he being creation of onther dimensional being. The problem is Itsuko is who make the theorys, so people tends to believe in anything she says.
PP:
Nice writing, btw (sorry for ot comenting this first :p). I also like the idea of they inventing names for the other group.
The thing is Itsuko already went for 'the female Haruki might have created the world' in the other scene. This is probably to be a foil to Mitsuru, who don't even want to think aout he being creation of onther dimensional being. The problem is Itsuko is who make the theorys, so people tends to believe in anything she says.
I know, this scene referenced that scene. There's no reason that Itsuko couldn't propose two competing theories, especially when one is as distasteful as being the creation of someone in a different universe. They currently have to way to confirm which, if any, theory is correct, so Itsuko can propose as many theories as she wants.
Glad you enjoyed the name part. That was mostly done for amusement, but it could also be interpreted as a sign of how the Koizumi's aren't always rights. Sometimes the stuff they say could just be placeholders until they can come up with a real theory/accurate information.
I'm sad that my theory seems to have been completely forgotten ...
Um. How about 'the current situation we find ourselves in is due to Suzumiya-san's sudden interest in the different thought processes of man and woman. He is now curious how his life would be different if he were a woman, so a female version of him has come to exist by virtue of his power. Only, because this is truly a female version of Suzumiya-san, she has access to the same power he does, and has created a world around herself which is a reflection of Suzumiya-san's. But since ultimately the power springs from our Suzumiya-san, this is an unbalanced creation, with the divine power like the rope in a game of tug-of-war. As the power flows, so too are people drawn along with it, possibly in an effort to achieve reality in this new world. Or possibly Suzumiya-san's subconscious is actively sending us here, relying on us to solve this imbalance. The Organization exists, after all, to safeguard Suzumiya-san's state of mind and the real world from which we came.'
Something like that? Li'l sleepy. ^^;
Triple_R
2009-08-27, 12:20
I'm sad that my theory seems to have been completely forgotten ...
I thought of raising that myself, but it just struck me as a very strange thing for the hot-blooded manly man Haruki to think about.
I know, this scene referenced that scene. There's no reason that Itsuko couldn't propose two competing theories, especially when one is as distasteful as being the creation of someone in a different universe. They currently have to way to confirm which, if any, theory is correct, so Itsuko can propose as many theories as she wants.
I think you are right, actually. But I believe Kaisos was going for Itsuko proposing the Haruhi is god theory. But, yeah, I guess she could propse 2 or more theorys.
Glad you enjoyed the name part. That was mostly done for amusement, but it could also be interpreted as a sign of how the Koizumi's aren't always rights. Sometimes the stuff they say could just be placeholders until they can come up with a real theory/accurate information.
I find that idea very amuzing. How about the others? Yuuko? Kyonhiko? Ichihiro?
I'm sad that my theory seems to have been completely forgotten ...
I was actually thinking about including it in what I wrote, but I wasn't sure if Kyonko would let Itsuko go on at such length. And I have a feeling Mitsuuru would try to interject if she kept spouting theories, and I know I have no ability to write lines for him.
Edit: Also, I really wanted to have Itsuko say "My, my... the Trousers of Time?" but thought it would be out of character for her, since it's Kyon who does the random culture references.
How about the theory of balance of power?
Itsuko: 'Because in universe A, there is a Suzumiya Haruki with infinite power, in universe B, as a counterbalance, there must exist a Suzumiya Haruhi with infinite power, to keep the various alternate dimensions in balance. However, since the infinite is indivisible, the power is fluctuating, oscillating between the two, creating a current between the dimensions as it shifts from one Suzumiya to the other while attempting to achieve an impossible balance: by definition of their nature, both Suzumiyas should have infinite power. By its own definition, the infinite power can not be wielded by two entities simultaneously, or it would be divided and thus less than infinite. As the power flows to and fro, people are dragged along with its current. The fact that we are being drawn into this world, rather than people being drawn to ours seems to indicate that the power is starting to shift most strongly to the female Suzumiya ...'
Mitsuuru: 'But if this power is infinite, isn't it greater than both Suzumiyas? Wouldn't it just encompass them? Suzumiya-san is very energetic, but he isn't infinite. Even he gets tired and hungry after a while. Therefore, even if the Suzumiyas have some kind of 'power', it either encompasses them and these dimensional shifts are due to something different, or their power is not infinite.'
I thought of raising that myself, but it just struck me as a very strange thing for the hot-blooded manly man Haruki to think about.
The guy is strange. :heh: But more than that, it's not an unusual curiosity.
HikariNiwa
2009-08-27, 16:13
How about the theory of balance of power?
Itsuko: 'Because in universe A, there is a Suzumiya Haruki with infinite power, in universe B, as a counterbalance, there must exist a Suzumiya Haruhi with infinite power, to keep the various alternate dimensions in balance. However, since the infinite is indivisible, the power is fluctuating, oscillating between the two, creating a current between the dimensions as it shifts from one Suzumiya to the other while attempting to achieve an impossible balance: by definition of their nature, both Suzumiyas should have infinite power. By its own definition, the infinite power can not be wielded by two entities simultaneously, or it would be divided and thus less than infinite. As the power flows to and fro, people are dragged along with its current. The fact that we are being drawn into this world, rather than people being drawn to ours seems to indicate that the power is starting to shift most strongly to the female Suzumiya ...'
Mitsuuru: 'But if this power is infinite, isn't it greater than both Suzumiyas? Wouldn't it just encompass them? Suzumiya-san is very energetic, but he isn't infinite. Even he gets tired and hungry after a while. Therefore, even if the Suzumiyas have some kind of 'power', it either encompasses them and these dimensional shifts are due to something different, or their power is not infinite.'
The guy is strange. :heh: But more than that, it's not an unusual curiosity.
Certainly, that also serves as a good argument. However, Mitsuuru sounds rather off in your writing.
besieger
2009-08-27, 16:22
Kaisos need to be for approval. Really. More theories are good, but don't discuss them into GREAT DETAIL here.
Certainly, that also serves as a good argument. However, Mitsuuru sounds rather off in your writing.
He needs to hesitate and to stumble on words more.
Anyway, your theory is good Aebliss.
PP:
Kaisos need to be for approval. Really. More theories are good, but don't discuss them into GREAT DETAIL here.
I believe both him and Danchou are reading everything and discussing which theorys fit better. Also, Kaisos have read the first time you posted yours and asked for clarification.
Certainly, that also serves as a good argument. However, Mitsuuru sounds rather off in your writing.
Two possible reasons:
1) I'm a bit tired. (Most likely reason.)
2) Haruki's not around, presumably nothing else bad is happening at that moment, and Mitsuuru finally sees an opportunity to offer logical rebuttal to all the insanity going on around him. Either that or he's snapped under the strain and is too exhausted to be afraid.
He needs to hesitate and to stumble on words more.
Anyway, your theory is good Aebliss.
Cheers. ^^
dragon4dudes
2009-08-27, 16:53
I agree with Heatth. It's a good theory, but the dialogue would fit into character more if Mitsuuru would stammer more. It might also work if Kyonko brought up the counterargument rather than Mitsuuru. Maybe.
besieger
2009-08-27, 17:04
I clarified somewhat in MSN. Kaisos can PM me if he wants.
That piece by Aebliss is really well written. I like the explanation of the current of power flowing towards Haruhi being what dragged them along (I was trying to go for that myself, but Aebliss put it much better). Technically speaking, Mitsuuru is kinda right. Sort of. Partially. Infinities just do not work the way Itsuko is proposing.
You can divide infinity and get multiple infinities. For example: There is an infinite amount of numbers. Divide it into even and odd numbers. There is an infinite amount of even numbers. There is an infinite amount of odd numbers. Half of infinity is still infinity. A tenth of infinity is still infinity. One-trillionth of infinity is still infinity. Some infinities include more or less than other infinities, but they are all infinite. That's what infinity is.
Of course, this could be explained as Itsuko falling victim to a No Limits Fallacy (taking an observed phenomenon and extrapolating its power infinitely). The power wielded by the Suzumiyas may appear limitless from our perspective but actually be finite. Then the argument about balance could work. Nice to see Mitsuuru pointing out a valid flaw in an idea.
Or, it could be that Haruhi has somehow managed to get more "parts" of the infinite power than Haruki has, and that THAT is the cause of the imbalance. Maybe, for example, the ability to maintain a stable world infinitely is part of the powers, but a part that only one of them can use at a time.
CrowKenobi
2009-08-27, 17:54
You can divide infinity and get multiple infinities. For example: There is an infinite amount of numbers. Divide it into even and odd numbers. There is an infinite amount of even numbers. There is an infinite amount of odd numbers. Half of infinity is still infinity. A tenth of infinity is still infinity. One-trillionth of infinity is still infinity. Some infinities include more or less than other infinities, but they are all infinite. That's what infinity is.And thus, that makes the population of the universe... zero. ;)
I wonder how many Hitchhiker's references can be believably used here...
...and "Treknobabble!" (Heisenberg Compensator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heisenberg_compensator#Capabilities_and_limitation s)) :D
HikariNiwa
2009-08-27, 17:56
That piece by Aebliss is really well written. I like the explanation of the current of power flowing towards Haruhi being what dragged them along (I was trying to go for that myself, but Aebliss put it much better). Technically speaking, Mitsuuru is kinda right. Sort of. Partially. Infinities just do not work the way Itsuko is proposing.
You can divide infinity and get multiple infinities. For example: There is an infinite amount of numbers. Divide it into even and odd numbers. There is an infinite amount of even numbers. There is an infinite amount of odd numbers. Half of infinity is still infinity. A tenth of infinity is still infinity. One-trillionth of infinity is still infinity. Some infinities include more or less than other infinities, but they are all infinite. That's what infinity is.
Of course, this could be explained as Itsuko falling victim to a No Limits Fallacy (taking an observed phenomenon and extrapolating its power infinitely). The power wielded by the Suzumiyas may appear limitless from our perspective but actually be finite. Then the argument about balance could work. Nice to see Mitsuuru pointing out a valid flaw in an idea.
Or, it could be that Haruhi has somehow managed to get more "parts" of the infinite power than Haruki has, and that THAT is the cause of the imbalance. Maybe, for example, the ability to maintain a stable world infinitely is part of the powers, but a part that only one of them can use at a time.
What it comes down to however, is whether or not the readers will understand. I for one, hopefully believe they are capable. Otherwise our arguments and theories become moot.
Guys, if you want me to actually do anything, PM me.
I've been spending the past several days away from this thread mainly because of some Seitenkan-related soul-searching and contemplation. Seeing a "hey, someone needs to update that FAQ" while trying to figure out where I stopped for backlog is not encouraging.
You are right, sorry.
Also, nice additions to the FAQ.
I will look for Danchou's final post about the height discssion and send to you.
HikariNiwa
2009-08-27, 19:04
I just checked out the FAQ right now, and it seems to be quite informative. It was also my first time reading it.
Also, I seem to have completely forgotten about you at some point in time. No offense implied of course.
EDIT: By the way, who here has actually used the IRC for discussion?
We can argue anything forever. Yet, we have reached many consensus the last past discussions. Also, is not like I am not only one saying it. Now I am curious, why you don't want to discuss it?
Note that in the cited post (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=1459506&postcount=1969), I said "My take on the matter, subject to change when consensus is reached". I meant exactly that.
I'm surprised nobody called me out on "Asahina-senpai", because that one was the only deliberate one I suggested. It was meant to be a take on the whole romantic comedy aspect of "senpaaaaii~" that would have been notable in any other series.
Infinities just do not work the way Itsuko is proposing.
You can divide infinity and get multiple infinities. For example: There is an infinite amount of numbers. Divide it into even and odd numbers. There is an infinite amount of even numbers. There is an infinite amount of odd numbers. Half of infinity is still infinity. A tenth of infinity is still infinity. One-trillionth of infinity is still infinity. Some infinities include more or less than other infinities, but they are all infinite. That's what infinity is.
The problem is that I don't know who recognizes the term "aleph". (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleph_number)
I can supply technobabble, but they're all likely to be so long and meandering that the reader is probably going to get bored after the first couple of paragraphs, much less Kyon(ko).
EDIT: By the way, who here has actually used the IRC for discussion?
Used to, way back in the very early days. Now it seems to be mostly silent except for random filesharing (of doujinshi, not always or often Seitenkan-related) offers by a couple of the channel ops.
dragon4dudes
2009-08-27, 19:33
Just out of curiosity, would it be at all possible for said potential technobabble to be edited?
Note that in the cited post (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=1459506&postcount=1969), I said "My take on the matter, subject to change when consensus is reached". I meant exactly that.
I'm surprised nobody called me out on "Asahina-senpai", because that one was the only deliberate one I suggested. It was meant to be a take on the whole romantic comedy aspect of "senpaaaaii~" that would have been notable in any other series.
Exept here was no real discussion as far as I know (I've searched). Some one, at page 29 said it was a good idea and that was it. By that time, the tread was moving at, what, 20 pages by day? Is really hard to people get everything. Also, it was not only me, other here also find this change strange. Anyway, I really thought it was just a random change that people was trying to rationalize to make it fit. Kaisos explained it wasn't.
I also find the 'Asahina-sempai' strange. But, well, I thought there is no much difference between 'san' and 'sempai' here. So it doesn't bothered me.
Kaisos Erranon
2009-08-27, 19:52
Just out of curiosity, would it be at all possible for said potential technobabble to be edited?
Yeah, sure.
HikariNiwa
2009-08-27, 20:01
I just realized something. Even if the power Haruhi gave Haruki was finite (albeit still an ungodly amount), while she herself possessed infinite power, wouldn't the end result sound something like the Rin vs. Sakura scene in HF?
Of course, that's assuming Haruki's power is finite as opposed to infinite. Just a quick thought.
yggdrasil325
2009-08-27, 20:02
What it comes down to however, is whether or not the readers will understand. I for one, hopefully believe they are capable. Otherwise our arguments and theories become moot.
I seriously doubt all of the readers of the novels understand all of Itsuki's theories, though.
dragon4dudes
2009-08-27, 20:05
I may have while reading them, but they're usually so long that I forget them...
Exept here was no real discussion as far as I know (I've searched). Some one, at page 29 said it was a good idea and that was it.
My point was that I'm just some random guy, yanno? It's not like my word is gospel.
I seriously doubt all of the readers of the novels understand all of Itsuki's theories, though.
True, but Itsuki has been amazingly coherent about them.
I've been reading science fiction of varying hardness for a long time, so I'm familiar with a lot of the theories in the MoHS novels, but I'm always impressed by how understandable these theories are made, compared to other books. They're very simplified, and presented as entertainment more than education, but complex ideas are still broken down into easy chunks.
The best I can do is make some sort of lame joke about how some infinities are small than other infinities. I'm afraid I'll have to use words like "quantum".
And then there's the whole time-travel stuff, which involves relativity, time dilation (for example, time does not exist for a photon), Zeno's paradoxes, the chronology protection conjencture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_protection_conjecture)...
My point was that I'm just some random guy, yanno? It's not like my word is gospel.
Oh, I see. Well, your post was linked in the first post, so is the closest thing we have. As is the FAQ.
True, but Itsuki has been amazingly coherent about them.
I've been reading science fiction of varying hardness for a long time, so I'm familiar with a lot of the theories in the MoHS novels, but I'm always impressed by how understandable these theories are made, compared to other books. They're very simplified, and presented as entertainment more than education, but complex ideas are still broken down into easy chunks.
The best I can do is make some sort of lame joke about how some infinities are small than other infinities. I'm afraid I'll have to use words like "quantum".
And then there's the whole time-travel stuff, which involves relativity, time dilation (for example, time does not exist for a photon), Zeno's paradoxes, the chronology protection conjencture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_protection_conjecture)...
You have a point. But this is more about the writing ability right? I mean, it is more about the writer be able to sumarize the theorys in a comprehensible way then about the theory be simple right?
HikariNiwa
2009-08-27, 20:42
You have a point. But this is more about the writing ability right? I mean, it is more about the writer be able to sumarize the theorys in a comprehensible way then about the theory be simple right?
This statement is correct.
dragon4dudes
2009-08-27, 21:03
And Tanigawa does an excellent job. Comprehensible.
Sorry to derail you guys, but I have another update:
http://www.100megsfree4.com/fstar/GBHS/Crossroads%20Doodles%202.pngStill just doodles, but aside from Taniguchi, I think I have all the original cast sketched up.
Nice job.
The CCP and Itsuki are very good. The face of the other 3 are kinda weird, though. Specially Mikuru. Her face is kinda fat. too short, maybe.
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-08-27, 22:54
Perhaps it's the lack of shading, but Itsuki's face seems a little wider than usual.
DJ_RockmanX
2009-08-27, 23:44
Sorry to derail you guys, but I have another update:
http://www.100megsfree4.com/fstar/GBHS/Crossroads%20Doodles%202.pngStill just doodles, but aside from Taniguchi, I think I have all the original cast sketched up.
Good to see you're still alive.
besieger
2009-08-27, 23:47
Better to see our artist alive than technobabble.
I mean, I do plenty of that for work already. I don't need another dosage here. :heh:
Sorry to derail you guys, but I have another update:
http://www.100megsfree4.com/fstar/GBHS/Crossroads%20Doodles%202.pngStill just doodles, but aside from Taniguchi, I think I have all the original cast sketched up.
I so wanted to give you points for this ... o_o Awesome work. Please keep it up!
HikariNiwa
2009-08-28, 09:39
Sorry to derail you guys, but I have another update:
http://www.100megsfree4.com/fstar/GBHS/Crossroads%20Doodles%202.pngStill just doodles, but aside from Taniguchi, I think I have all the original cast sketched up.
I agree with Heatth here, Mikuru's face does look rather... "plump".
ryanasaurus0077
2009-08-28, 21:17
I agree with the others, Binjovi. Perhaps the Mikuru face might need some work.
Kaisos Erranon
2009-08-28, 23:02
Why am I so tired.
Peering In
IF ItsukoConvo = False AND MissingShoes=True
I didn't know I was so nice. Or, rather, I'd be so nice.
I didn't know that I could be so nice to myself.
Does that make sense?
Although, I wonder if taking shoes that oversized was the right thing to do... I've already tripped five times while trying to follow him, myself, quietly. (For that matter, am I that unobservant?)
Why am I following the boy who is me? Because I want to find out exactly how much is different in this world.
So why am I crouching in front of the Class 1-5 door, with said door open a crack? See my answer to the above question.
It seems as though I sit in the same seat in this world too, and the person sitting behind him... must be his Suzumiya. Pretty sure she's someone Nagato and I ran into yesterday too.
It's difficult to see from this angle, but she seems really good looking. ...Somehow, I don't find that surprising at all.
I hear a voice mention something about the lack of interest in the handball team... so Okabe must be gender-flipped as well. Which isn't surprising either.
All in all, things are pretty much as I thought they would be. Except for the behavior of my own self. I honestly never expected to get these shoes.
...I wonder... could it be because I'm a girl? If so... that is both very awkward and incredibly shallow of him.
---
IF MissingShoes = False AND HijackTrigger < 7
I never realized up until now what a jerk I am. Or, rather, what a jerk I'd be.
I didn't know I could be such a jerk to myself.
Does that make sense?
Okay, maybe I'm sort of in the wrong here, but, still. Not even trying to talk it out wasn't very nice.
After grabbing a random pair of indoor shoes from a second-year locker, I quickly followed myself, him, upstairs to our classroom. He didn't even notice me following him... am I that unobservant?
Why am I following the boy who is me? Because I want to find out exactly how much is different in this world.
So why am I crouching in front of the Class 1-5 door, with said door open a crack? See my answer to the above question.
It seems as though I sit in the same seat in this world too, and the person sitting behind him... must be his Suzumiya. Pretty sure she's someone Nagato and I ran into yesterday too.
It's difficult to see from this angle, but she seems really good looking. ...Somehow, I don't find that surprising at all.
I hear a voice mention something about the lack of interest in the handball team... so Okabe must be gender-flipped as well. Which isn't surprising either.
All in all, things are pretty much as I thought they would be. Except my being a jerk, but hey.
---
IF MissingShoes = False AND HijackTrigger >= 7
Am I that unobservant?
Even though I had doubled back and stalked myself, him, all the way to Class 1-5, he hadn't noticed at all.
Anyway, the question is “why am I crouching in front of the Class 1-5 door, with said door open a crack?” Well, because I want to find out exactly how much is different in this world. The answer appears to be, aside from gender, not too much.
It seems as though I sit in the same seat in this world too, and the person sitting behind him... must be his Suzumiya. Pretty sure she's someone Nagato and I ran into yesterday too.
It's difficult to see from this angle, but she seems really good looking. ...Somehow, I don't find that surprising at all.
I hear a voice mention something about the lack of interest in the handball team... so Okabe must be gender-flipped as well. Which isn't surprising either.
And even Tsuruya-senpai is flipped, judging by the name in the girl's indoor shoes my other self helped me find. I wonder if he even noticed that...
---
If-- Oh crap, I think he noticed me looking at him. Let's just close the door quietly.
Hmm, so, now what to do...
Itsuko: Having fun spying on your animus?
Kyon: Whmmmfffff!
I had the presence of mind to cover my mouth before I actually screamed.
Behind me, a face I never thought I'd be this happy to see had snuck up. (Am I really that unobservant?)
Itsuko is right here, her usual smiling self. Her uniform looks... brand new, as do her rather suspicious indoor shoes. In her left hand, she carries a large shopping bag. But that's not what's important right now.
Kyonko: Oh... oh my god, you're here!
Losing all sense of control, I straighten up, and grab hold of Itsuko in a tight hug.
Itsuko: Hey... what...
Kyonko: Thank god... my cellphone wasn't working, so I was scared that thing Nagato did hadn't worked... I was scared I'd be here all alone...
Itsuko: Don't... worry... now please... if you would release me... you're choking me... also... we should go somewhere quieter...
A few minutes later, we were heading down the corridor, towards Itsuko's “somewhere quieter”.
Itsuko: I am, of course, glad to see you too. We were all so worried about you, after what you said yesterday.
Kyonko: …? What did I say yesterday?
Itsuko stops walking.
Itsuko: ...Why... about how you were afraid you were going insane.
Kyonko: …? What? I don't remember saying anything like that.
What is she even talking about?
Itsuko: …Never mind, then. Nagato-san and Asahina-san are looking forward to seeing you, in any case.
Kyonko: So you've made contact with the two of them?
Itsuko: Yes, I ran into Asahina-san a few minutes ago. He had been sleeping in that park near Nagato-san's place, it seems.
Oh dear. Poor Asahina-senpai.
And Nagato?
Itsuko: Nagato-san actually contacted me last night. He wishes to meet at the top of that stairwell in the Old Shack.
Kyonko: Then why are we heading the other way? And wait, contacted? How? Your cellphone is working?!
Itsuko: No, of course not. He called me on the phone at the place where I was staying... it appears he spent the entire night here at the school, actually.
---
IF MissingShoes = True THEN
Kyonko: So where did you say you were stay-- aaaah!
I trip over my own overlarge shoes again.
Itsuko: My my. Wherever did you get those, anyway?
Grumbling, I pick myself up off the ground.
Itsuko: In any case, we've arrived at our destination
Kyonko: ...The bathroom?
Itsuko holds out that shopping bag she had been carrying.
Itsuko: This contains a brand new uniform in your size, complete with indoor shoes. Can't have you tripping up over those all day, can we?
Kyonko: Ah, thanks! …Where did you get this?
Itsuko: …I would prefer that remain a secret for now. Now go on, go on, get into the bathroom and change.
---
ELSE
Kyonko: So where did you say you were staying?
Itsuko: ...I would prefer that remain a secret for now.
...Huh. Now that's interesting. What is she hiding, exactly?
Itsuko: In any case, we have arrived at our destination.
Kyonko: ...The bathroom?
Itsuko holds out that shopping bag she had been carrying.
Itsuko: This contains a brand new uniform in your size, complete with indoor shoes. I can't have you remain my senpai all day, can I?
What is that supposed to mean?
Kyonko: Thanks! …But, where did you get this?
Itsuko: …I would also prefer that remain a secret for now. Now go on, go on, get into the bathroom and change.
---
Itsuko and her secrets... I'm glad she somehow got this uniform, though. Being in an enclosed space, like this stall, really makes it obvious how much my old uniform stunk.
...It was only after I removed my blouse that I regretted agreeing to change.
You know how it's possible to create specific tan lines by putting some kind of object on your skin while sunbathing? It creates a unique tattoo-like effect. Honestly, I always thought it was kind of cool.
This is the sort of thing that has appeared on my upper arms. But I have no idea how it got there. I haven't been sunbathing since Haruki took us to that island back in July.
Imprinted in the skin of my upper right arm are six Roman characters. Let's see...
K.
Y.
O.
N.
K.
O.
“KYONKO”.
...What on Earth...? Who the hell is “Kyonko”? Is that supposed to be my name? That's not right...
But that isn't the worst of it. The worst of it is what's on my other arm.
It's something that conjures up memories of something that never happened. Something that I don't remember, but do.
Memories I should not have. Memories of a world that no longer exists.
Memories.
Imprinted on my upper left arm, in the same way, is a rather bad drawing. It's a drawing of a little kitty and puppy being eaten by a crocodile.
Gwar.
Ahaha~. Honestly, I considered re-titling this scene "The Crocodile", but that would give it away too early.
The scientific stuff I asked everyone for is next scene. Which I hope to write by the end of tonight. Urrrrgh braindead.
Thank you all for your help.
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-08-28, 23:12
If-- Oh crap, I think he noticed me looking at him. Let's just close the door quietly.
... At first, I thought this was a branch being interrupted. :heh:
Losing all sense of control, I straighten up, and grab hold of Itsuko in a tight hug.
Itsuko: Hey... what...
OMG Yuri!
Hey, someone was bound to say it :p
It's something that conjures up memories of something that never happened. Something that I don't remember, but do.
Memories I should not have. Memories of a world that no longer exists.
Memories.
. . .
Imprinted on my upper left arm, in the same way, is a rather bad drawing. It's a drawing of a little kitty and puppy being eaten by a crocodile.
Gwar.
:heh:
Triple_R
2009-08-28, 23:14
Why am I so tired.
Peering In
IF ItsukoConvo = False AND MissingShoes=True
I didn't know I was so nice. Or, rather, I'd be so nice.
I didn't know that I could be so nice to myself.
Does that make sense?
Although, I wonder if taking shoes that oversized was the right thing to do... I've already tripped five times while trying to follow him, myself, quietly. (For that matter, am I that unobservant?)
Why am I following the boy who is me? Because I want to find out exactly how much is different in this world.
So why am I crouching in front of the Class 1-5 door, with said door open a crack? See my answer to the above question.
It seems as though I sit in the same seat in this world too, and the person sitting behind him... must be his Suzumiya. Pretty sure she's someone Nagato and I ran into yesterday too.
It's difficult to see from this angle, but she seems really good looking. ...Somehow, I don't find that surprising at all.
I hear a voice mention something about the lack of interest in the handball team... so Okabe must be gender-flipped as well. Which isn't surprising either.
All in all, things are pretty much as I thought they would be. Except for the behavior of my own self. I honestly never expected to get these shoes.
...I wonder... could it be because I'm a girl? If so... that is both very awkward and incredibly shallow of him.
---
IF MissingShoes = False AND HijackTrigger < 7
I never realized up until now what a jerk I am. Or, rather, what a jerk I'd be.
I didn't know I could be such a jerk to myself.
Does that make sense?
Okay, maybe I'm sort of in the wrong here, but, still. Not even trying to talk it out wasn't very nice.
After grabbing a random pair of indoor shoes from a second-year locker, I quickly followed myself, him, upstairs to our classroom. He didn't even notice me following him... am I that unobservant?
Why am I following the boy who is me? Because I want to find out exactly how much is different in this world.
So why am I crouching in front of the Class 1-5 door, with said door open a crack? See my answer to the above question.
It seems as though I sit in the same seat in this world too, and the person sitting behind him... must be his Suzumiya. Pretty sure she's someone Nagato and I ran into yesterday too.
It's difficult to see from this angle, but she seems really good looking. ...Somehow, I don't find that surprising at all.
I hear a voice mention something about the lack of interest in the handball team... so Okabe must be gender-flipped as well. Which isn't surprising either.
All in all, things are pretty much as I thought they would be. Except my being a jerk, but hey.
---
IF MissingShoes = False AND HijackTrigger >= 7
Am I that unobservant?
Even though I had doubled back and stalked myself, him, all the way to Class 1-5, he hadn't noticed at all.
Anyway, the question is “why am I crouching in front of the Class 1-5 door, with said door open a crack?” Well, because I want to find out exactly how much is different in this world. The answer appears to be, aside from gender, not too much.
It seems as though I sit in the same seat in this world too, and the person sitting behind him... must be his Suzumiya. Pretty sure she's someone Nagato and I ran into yesterday too.
It's difficult to see from this angle, but she seems really good looking. ...Somehow, I don't find that surprising at all.
I hear a voice mention something about the lack of interest in the handball team... so Okabe must be gender-flipped as well. Which isn't surprising either.
And even Tsuruya-senpai is flipped, judging by the name in the girl's indoor shoes my other self helped me find. I wonder if he even noticed that...
---
If-- Oh crap, I think he noticed me looking at him. Let's just close the door quietly.
Hmm, so, now what to do...
Itsuko: Having fun spying on your animus?
Kyon: Whmmmfffff!
I had the presence of mind to cover my mouth before I actually screamed.
Behind me, a face I never thought I'd be this happy to see had snuck up. (Am I really that unobservant?)
Itsuko is right here, her usual smiling self. Her uniform looks... brand new, as do her rather suspicious indoor shoes. In her left hand, she carries a large shopping bag. But that's not what's important right now.
Kyonko: Oh... oh my god, you're here!
Losing all sense of control, I straighten up, and grab hold of Itsuko in a tight hug.
Itsuko: Hey... what...
Kyonko: Thank god... my cellphone wasn't working, so I was scared that thing Nagato did hadn't worked... I was scared I'd be here all alone...
Itsuko: Don't... worry... now please... if you would release me... you're choking me... also... we should go somewhere quieter...
A few minutes later, we were heading down the corridor, towards Itsuko's “somewhere quieter”.
Itsuko: I am, of course, glad to see you too. We were all so worried about you, after what you said yesterday.
Kyonko: …? What did I say yesterday?
Itsuko stops walking.
Itsuko: ...Why... about how you were afraid you were going insane.
Kyonko: …? What? I don't remember saying anything like that.
What is she even talking about?
Itsuko: …Never mind, then. Nagato-san and Asahina-san are looking forward to seeing you, in any case.
Kyonko: So you've made contact with the two of them?
Itsuko: Yes, I ran into Asahina-san a few minutes ago. He had been sleeping in that park near Nagato-san's place, it seems.
Oh dear. Poor Asahina-senpai.
And Nagato?
Itsuko: Nagato-san actually contacted me last night. He wishes to meet at the top of that stairwell in the Old Shack.
Kyonko: Then why are we heading the other way? And wait, contacted? How? Your cellphone is working?!
Itsuko: No, of course not. He called me on the phone at the place where I was staying... it appears he spent the entire night here at the school, actually.
---
IF MissingShoes = True THEN
Kyonko: So where did you say you were stay-- aaaah!
I trip over my own overlarge shoes again.
Itsuko: My my. Wherever did you get those, anyway?
Grumbling, I pick myself up off the ground.
Itsuko: In any case, we've arrived at our destination
Kyonko: ...The bathroom?
Itsuko holds out that shopping bag she had been carrying.
Itsuko: This contains a brand new uniform in your size, complete with indoor shoes. Can't have you tripping up over those all day, can we?
Kyonko: Ah, thanks! …Where did you get this?
Itsuko: …I would prefer that remain a secret for now. Now go on, go on, get into the bathroom and change.
---
ELSE
Kyonko: So where did you say you were staying?
Itsuko: ...I would prefer that remain a secret for now.
...Huh. Now that's interesting. What is she hiding, exactly?
Itsuko: In any case, we have arrived at our destination.
Kyonko: ...The bathroom?
Itsuko holds out that shopping bag she had been carrying.
Itsuko: This contains a brand new uniform in your size, complete with indoor shoes. I can't have you remain my senpai all day, can I?
What is that supposed to mean?
Kyonko: Thanks! …But, where did you get this?
Itsuko: …I would also prefer that remain a secret for now. Now go on, go on, get into the bathroom and change.
---
Itsuko and her secrets... I'm glad she somehow got this uniform, though. Being in an enclosed space, like this stall, really makes it obvious how much my old uniform stunk.
...It was only after I removed my blouse that I regretted agreeing to change.
You know how it's possible to create specific tan lines by putting some kind of object on your skin while sunbathing? It creates a unique tattoo-like effect. Honestly, I always thought it was kind of cool.
This is the sort of thing that has appeared on my upper arms. But I have no idea how it got there. I haven't been sunbathing since Haruki took us to that island back in July.
Imprinted in the skin of my upper right arm are six Roman characters. Let's see...
K.
Y.
O.
N.
K.
O.
“KYONKO”.
...What on Earth...? Who the hell is “Kyonko”? Is that supposed to be my name? That's not right...
But that isn't the worst of it. The worst of it is what's on my other arm.
It's something that conjures up memories of something that never happened. Something that I don't remember, but do.
Memories I should not have. Memories of a world that no longer exists.
Memories.
Imprinted on my upper left arm, in the same way, is a rather bad drawing. It's a drawing of a little kitty and puppy being eaten by a crocodile.
Gwar.
Ahaha~. Honestly, I considered re-titling this scene "The Crocodile", but that would give it away too early.
The scientific stuff I asked everyone for is next scene. Which I hope to write by the end of tonight. Urrrrgh braindead.
Thank you all for your help.
Interesting that you had Kyonko hugging Itsuko so vigorously... ;)
Surprising to read that coming from you... but hey, I'm not complaining. :D
Good work for the most part. The narration sounds solid.
swtrooper42
2009-08-29, 00:51
Hm, crocodile... Is ok that that makes me think of Killer Croc?:heh:
Itsuko is hiding something. Possibly a plot point?
Random thoughts: Espers can sense other espers right? Maybe the organization contacted her. Or maybe she just got the supplies from an Organization safehouse.
I think the hug is ok considering the circumstances of Kyonko's situation. I.E. (I'm trapped in an alternate world and maybe never see anyone I know or go back ever again!)
Can't wait to see what you've done with all our theories Kaisos.
Kaisos Erranon
2009-08-29, 00:55
It'll be more obvious in the actual game, since it'll be a CG, so I'd just like to draw everyone's attention back to these lines:
My fingers are red. Bloodstains. I wonder if I can make pretty patterns with the blood.
I smear some more blood on my upper arm.
Kyonko: Let’s see, I’ll draw a kitty, nyaa. And a puppy. Arf arf! And a crocodile eating them both! Gwar! *giggle giggle giggle*
The little animals move around after I draw them, the puppy and kitty being devoured over and over again. Too much fun.
So, yeah.
swtrooper42
2009-08-29, 00:58
You are a sick sick man Kaisos. Screwing with our minds like that.
I'm starting to think you enjoy it.
Kaisos Erranon
2009-08-29, 01:01
You are a sick sick man Kaisos. Screwing with our minds like that.
I'm starting to think you enjoy it.
Starting to think?
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-08-29, 01:09
What's not to love about screwing with people's heads? :heh:
*e* In fact, while I hate to be stealing attention away from Kaisos, here's something for you all to mull over for a bit...
Black.
Everything is black.
Or, perhaps, nothing is. I may be the only thing in this world.
I cannot move.
If I can, I have no way of knowing it.
I cannot feel anything. Perhaps I have no body to feel with.
There is no sound.
I try to call out, but no words come.
There is nothing to smell, nor is there anything to taste.
I am alone. Nothing is here but me.
Nothing.
Such a simple word to say, yet so horrible to experience.
Nothing.
There is nothing here. Maybe I am also nothing.
An eternity seems to pass, but I cannot say for certain.
Time is a measurement of change.
If there is no change, time cannot exist.
Without time, space is meaningless.
I exist outside of space and time.
This must be so, for I am here, yet nothing else is.
Nothing, it calls to me again.
Nothing.
The black abyss that surrounds me.
It tortures me. I know of other things, yet nothing is here.
Nothing but my thoughts.
Nothing but black.
Nothing.
Nothing surrounds me. Am I nothing, as well?
Why am I here?
Who decided I should be alone?
Alone, in this world of nothing.
If something were here, I would know it.
No, nothing is all that is here.
No light, no sound, no smell, no taste, no texture.
Nothing.
I am all that exists.
Yet, there is no proof I exist.
If I were to exist, then something would be here.
Something cannot be here without me knowing it.
I do not know of anything here, so I cannot be something.
I must be nothing.
Nothing is here. I am Nothing.
Triple_R
2009-08-29, 01:24
What's not to love about screwing with people's heads? :heh:
*e* In fact, while I hate to be stealing attention away from Kaisos, here's something for you all to mull over for a bit...
Black.
Everything is black.
Or, perhaps, nothing is. I may be the only thing in this world.
I cannot move.
If I can, I have no way of knowing it.
I cannot feel anything. Perhaps I have no body to feel with.
There is no sound.
I try to call out, but no words come.
There is nothing to smell, nor is there anything to taste.
I am alone. Nothing is here but me.
Nothing.
Such a simple word to say, yet so horrible to experience.
Nothing.
There is nothing here. Maybe I am also nothing.
An eternity seems to pass, but I cannot say for certain.
Time is a measurement of change.
If there is no change, time cannot exist.
Without time, space is meaningless.
I exist outside of space and time.
This must be so, for I am here, yet nothing else is.
Nothing, it calls to me again.
Nothing.
The black abyss that surrounds me.
It tortures me. I know of other things, yet nothing is here.
Nothing but my thoughts.
Nothing but black.
Nothing.
Nothing surrounds me. Am I nothing, as well?
Why am I here?
Who decided I should be alone?
Alone, in this world of nothing.
If something were here, I would know it.
No, nothing is all that is here.
No light, no sound, no smell, no taste, no texture.
Nothing.
I am all that exists.
Yet, there is no proof I exist.
If I were to exist, then something would be here.
Something cannot be here without me knowing it.
I do not know of anything here, so I cannot be something.
I must be nothing.
Nothing is here. I am Nothing.
Clever, but...
I think, therefore I am
A famous quote that pretty much answers your writing here quite succinctly.
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-08-29, 01:28
In a world where nothing exists, could you prove that something does?
Triple_R
2009-08-29, 01:31
In a world where nothing exists, could you prove that something does?
Beyond yourself?
Probably not.
Wow, for the first time, there's only half a page of new posts since I went to bed.
Kaisos Erranon
2009-08-29, 01:59
Urrrrrrrrgh fuck.
Tired and head hurts. I'll finish this tomorrow. For now:
The Answers (III)
Itsuko: Are you feeling alright?
We were heading towards the stairwell in the Old Shack.
Kyonko: …What makes you ask that?
Itsuko: You keep tugging on your left sleeve as though you're trying to hide something.
Ugh. Why do you have to notice every little detail?
Kyonko: I would prefer that remain a secret for now.
Itsuko: Haha, touche. I'll leave you with your secrets, as you will leave me with mine.
That sounds rather like an ultimatum.
Itsuko: You think so? That was not my intention.
...I'm glad we're friends, Itsuko.
Itsuko: Me too.
The place where we were meeting Asahina-senpai and Nagato was that little place at the top of the stairwell that acts as some sort of storage for the art club, a location I've been to a few times. Interestingly, this is the first time I haven't been carried there.
Mitsuuru: Kyon-chan!
The minute Asahina-senpai sees me come up the stairs, he rushes forward as though to hug me... but stops short, and puts his arms behind his back, embarrassed.
Aww. You don't need to feel that way, Asahina-senpai. You can hug me any time.
Mitsuuru: A-Are you feeling better, Kyon-chan?
...Better?
Kyonko: I'm feeling pretty good, yeah.
Aside from the creepy imprints on my arms, yeah, I'm fine.
Mitsuuru: Thank god... I was so worried, with what you said yesterday and all... and since you were all alone last night, I figured...
Kyonko: …? What did I say yesterday?
Mitsuuru: Well, you know about-- er, nothing.
…?
His eyes had darted over to Itsuko as he said that.
Kyonko: …What's up with you two?
Itsuko: I would prefer that remain a secret for now.
Are we going to be firing that back and forth all day?
It was then that the state of the only other person in the stairwell distracted me.
Nagato was standing away from all of us, facing the corner. Honestly, he seemed to have even less presence than usual.
Kyonko: ...Nagato...?
Yuuki: All resources spent maintaining key programs. Noninterference would be appreciated.
Kyonko: ...What?
Mitsuuru: He was like that when I got here, too... he just keeps saying that. I think he's broken.
Itsuko: He mentioned something like that last night, as well. He seems to be having trouble keeping himself active without the support of the TFEI main server.
Kyonko: …
Itsuko: In any case, now that we are, indeed, on the other side, I would like to continue our meeting from yesterday. So, first... why do we not discuss the nature of this universe, now that we have spent more time in it?
Her eyes dart towards Asahina-senpai, who flinches. He was her main opponent yesterday, after all.
Before Itsuko can come out with her latest garbage, I should come up with something.
Kyonko: ...Actually... I have something to point out.
Itsuko: Oh? Please, go on.
Kyonko: The other day, I had been thinking about a theory I once heard... something about how each choice you make spawns an entirely different universe for each choice, leading to an infinite number of universes where each choice is played out....
Itsuko: I assume it was our endless summer that caused this line of thinking.
Kyonko: ...Yeah. What I had thought was the following possibility: What if every single one of the fifteen thousand-odd--
Yuuki: Fifteen thousand four hundred and ninety-eight.
Kyonko: Er, thank you, Nagato. What if every single one of those universes didn't loop back... but continued on instead? I know that's probably impossible, but what if this universe was similar? Like...
Itsuko: ...I'm starting to see where you're going with this. You're talking about Everett's Many-Worlds Interpretation, correct? You're saying that we're in a world where several people we all know just happened to be born the opposite gender.
Thank you for stealing my thunder, Itsuko.
Mitsuuru: Wait, wait. I'm sorry, Kyon-chan, but the Many-Worlds Interpretation isn't even accurate.
Itsuko: Oh, how so?
Mitsuuru: It can't be proven, for one thing.
Itsuko: And? That doesn't mean it's wrong.
Mitsuuru: Oh, come on. You should know better than to use that defense. An absence of proof is not proof of the thing itself. Furthermore, modern theories like Einstein's special relativity are all solved by assuming one universe.
Itsuko: Funny you should bring up something like physics. Forgive my ignorance, but doesn't time travel itself break established laws of physics?
Mitsuuru: I... that's classified, I can't...
Itsuko: Exactly.
Itsuko turns to me.
Itsuko: It's a well-thought-out idea, but it really doesn't explain why we are here... or why the Suzumiya-san in this universe has any sort of power. Fortunately, I have several explanations.
Oh, here we go.
I really, really want to have Itsuko and Mitsuuru fire off blue and red text at each other, but that would be too blatant.
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-08-29, 02:10
I see Itsuko responds to Kyonko's thoughts in this one...
Itsuko: He mentioned something like that last night, as well. He seems to be having trouble keeping himself active without the support of the TFEI main server.Should Itsuko be using the term TFEI here? It plays out before Sighs, doesn't it?
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-08-29, 02:32
Only a few months' difference, it's not entirely unlikely they've been using the term "TFEI" for longer than that.
Kaisos Erranon
2009-08-29, 02:36
Right, need to add something from Kyonko in there, then.
...I'll do it tomorrow.
vivify93
2009-08-29, 05:39
...TFEI? Sorry, I'm unfamiliar with the term. I never read Sighs, believe it or not.
Also, Kaisos = <3. I love how you're playing up animosity between Mitsuuru and Itsuko.
<3
...TFEI? Sorry, I'm unfamiliar with the term. I never read Sighs, believe it or not.It was mentioned in the latest Sighs episode, it's an acronym used by the "Organization" to describe Nagato's kind.
It's not revealed what it stands for.
Why am I so tired.
Peering In
IF ItsukoConvo = False AND MissingShoes=True
I didn't know I was so nice. Or, rather, I'd be so nice.
I didn't know that I could be so nice to myself.
Does that make sense?
Although, I wonder if taking shoes that oversized was the right thing to do... I've already tripped five times while trying to follow him, myself, quietly. (For that matter, am I that unobservant?)
Why am I following the boy who is me? Because I want to find out exactly how much is different in this world.
So why am I crouching in front of the Class 1-5 door, with said door open a crack? See my answer to the above question.
It seems as though I sit in the same seat in this world too, and the person sitting behind him... must be his Suzumiya. Pretty sure she's someone Nagato and I ran into yesterday too.
It's difficult to see from this angle, but she seems really good looking. ...Somehow, I don't find that surprising at all.
I hear a voice mention something about the lack of interest in the handball team... so Okabe must be gender-flipped as well. Which isn't surprising either.
All in all, things are pretty much as I thought they would be. Except for the behavior of my own self. I honestly never expected to get these shoes.
...I wonder... could it be because I'm a girl? If so... that is both very awkward and incredibly shallow of him.
---
IF MissingShoes = False AND HijackTrigger < 7
I never realized up until now what a jerk I am. Or, rather, what a jerk I'd be.
I didn't know I could be such a jerk to myself.
Does that make sense?
Okay, maybe I'm sort of in the wrong here, but, still. Not even trying to talk it out wasn't very nice.
After grabbing a random pair of indoor shoes from a second-year locker, I quickly followed myself, him, upstairs to our classroom. He didn't even notice me following him... am I that unobservant?
Why am I following the boy who is me? Because I want to find out exactly how much is different in this world.
So why am I crouching in front of the Class 1-5 door, with said door open a crack? See my answer to the above question.
It seems as though I sit in the same seat in this world too, and the person sitting behind him... must be his Suzumiya. Pretty sure she's someone Nagato and I ran into yesterday too.
It's difficult to see from this angle, but she seems really good looking. ...Somehow, I don't find that surprising at all.
I hear a voice mention something about the lack of interest in the handball team... so Okabe must be gender-flipped as well. Which isn't surprising either.
All in all, things are pretty much as I thought they would be. Except my being a jerk, but hey.
---
IF MissingShoes = False AND HijackTrigger >= 7
Am I that unobservant?
Even though I had doubled back and stalked myself, him, all the way to Class 1-5, he hadn't noticed at all.
Anyway, the question is “why am I crouching in front of the Class 1-5 door, with said door open a crack?” Well, because I want to find out exactly how much is different in this world. The answer appears to be, aside from gender, not too much.
It seems as though I sit in the same seat in this world too, and the person sitting behind him... must be his Suzumiya. Pretty sure she's someone Nagato and I ran into yesterday too.
It's difficult to see from this angle, but she seems really good looking. ...Somehow, I don't find that surprising at all.
I hear a voice mention something about the lack of interest in the handball team... so Okabe must be gender-flipped as well. Which isn't surprising either.
And even Tsuruya-senpai is flipped, judging by the name in the girl's indoor shoes my other self helped me find. I wonder if he even noticed that...
---
If-- Oh crap, I think he noticed me looking at him. Let's just close the door quietly.
Hmm, so, now what to do...
Itsuko: Having fun spying on your animus?
Kyon: Whmmmfffff!
I had the presence of mind to cover my mouth before I actually screamed.
Behind me, a face I never thought I'd be this happy to see had snuck up. (Am I really that unobservant?)
Itsuko is right here, her usual smiling self. Her uniform looks... brand new, as do her rather suspicious indoor shoes. In her left hand, she carries a large shopping bag. But that's not what's important right now.
Kyonko: Oh... oh my god, you're here!
Losing all sense of control, I straighten up, and grab hold of Itsuko in a tight hug.
Itsuko: Hey... what...
Kyonko: Thank god... my cellphone wasn't working, so I was scared that thing Nagato did hadn't worked... I was scared I'd be here all alone...
Itsuko: Don't... worry... now please... if you would release me... you're choking me... also... we should go somewhere quieter...
A few minutes later, we were heading down the corridor, towards Itsuko's “somewhere quieter”.
Itsuko: I am, of course, glad to see you too. We were all so worried about you, after what you said yesterday.
Kyonko: …? What did I say yesterday?
Itsuko stops walking.
Itsuko: ...Why... about how you were afraid you were going insane.
Kyonko: …? What? I don't remember saying anything like that.
What is she even talking about?
Itsuko: …Never mind, then. Nagato-san and Asahina-san are looking forward to seeing you, in any case.
Kyonko: So you've made contact with the two of them?
Itsuko: Yes, I ran into Asahina-san a few minutes ago. He had been sleeping in that park near Nagato-san's place, it seems.
Oh dear. Poor Asahina-senpai.
And Nagato?
Itsuko: Nagato-san actually contacted me last night. He wishes to meet at the top of that stairwell in the Old Shack.
Kyonko: Then why are we heading the other way? And wait, contacted? How? Your cellphone is working?!
Itsuko: No, of course not. He called me on the phone at the place where I was staying... it appears he spent the entire night here at the school, actually.
---
IF MissingShoes = True THEN
Kyonko: So where did you say you were stay-- aaaah!
I trip over my own overlarge shoes again.
Itsuko: My my. Wherever did you get those, anyway?
Grumbling, I pick myself up off the ground.
Itsuko: In any case, we've arrived at our destination
Kyonko: ...The bathroom?
Itsuko holds out that shopping bag she had been carrying.
Itsuko: This contains a brand new uniform in your size, complete with indoor shoes. Can't have you tripping up over those all day, can we?
Kyonko: Ah, thanks! …Where did you get this?
Itsuko: …I would prefer that remain a secret for now. Now go on, go on, get into the bathroom and change.
---
ELSE
Kyonko: So where did you say you were staying?
Itsuko: ...I would prefer that remain a secret for now.
...Huh. Now that's interesting. What is she hiding, exactly?
Itsuko: In any case, we have arrived at our destination.
Kyonko: ...The bathroom?
Itsuko holds out that shopping bag she had been carrying.
Itsuko: This contains a brand new uniform in your size, complete with indoor shoes. I can't have you remain my senpai all day, can I?
What is that supposed to mean?
Kyonko: Thanks! …But, where did you get this?
Itsuko: …I would also prefer that remain a secret for now. Now go on, go on, get into the bathroom and change.
---
Itsuko and her secrets... I'm glad she somehow got this uniform, though. Being in an enclosed space, like this stall, really makes it obvious how much my old uniform stunk.
...It was only after I removed my blouse that I regretted agreeing to change.
You know how it's possible to create specific tan lines by putting some kind of object on your skin while sunbathing? It creates a unique tattoo-like effect. Honestly, I always thought it was kind of cool.
This is the sort of thing that has appeared on my upper arms. But I have no idea how it got there. I haven't been sunbathing since Haruki took us to that island back in July.
Imprinted in the skin of my upper right arm are six Roman characters. Let's see...
K.
Y.
O.
N.
K.
O.
“KYONKO”.
...What on Earth...? Who the hell is “Kyonko”? Is that supposed to be my name? That's not right...
But that isn't the worst of it. The worst of it is what's on my other arm.
It's something that conjures up memories of something that never happened. Something that I don't remember, but do.
Memories I should not have. Memories of a world that no longer exists.
Memories.
Imprinted on my upper left arm, in the same way, is a rather bad drawing. It's a drawing of a little kitty and puppy being eaten by a crocodile.
Gwar.
Ahaha~. Honestly, I considered re-titling this scene "The Crocodile", but that would give it away too early.
The scientific stuff I asked everyone for is next scene. Which I hope to write by the end of tonight. Urrrrgh braindead.
Thank you all for your help.
Nice scene. I pitty Kyon(male) a little now. If he have been nice in the last scene he be the rest of the day with the visitor's shoes hurting his feet. However, this don't matter cause Kyonko found new shoes just after :heh: This explai why someone would chose be a jerk last scene, though. Playing by the second timeyu would already know what is going to happen :p
We are probably going to see that tatoo again right? So I guess it is being a CG here? A fanservice CG? :p
Urrrrrrrrgh fuck.
Tired and head hurts. I'll finish this tomorrow. For now:
The Answers (III)
Itsuko: Are you feeling alright?
We were heading towards the stairwell in the Old Shack.
Kyonko: …What makes you ask that?
Itsuko: You keep tugging on your left sleeve as though you're trying to hide something.
Ugh. Why do you have to notice every little detail?
Kyonko: I would prefer that remain a secret for now.
Itsuko: Haha, touche. I'll leave you with your secrets, as you will leave me with mine.
That sounds rather like an ultimatum.
Itsuko: You think so? That was not my intention.
...I'm glad we're friends, Itsuko.
Itsuko: Me too.
The place where we were meeting Asahina-senpai and Nagato was that little place at the top of the stairwell that acts as some sort of storage for the art club, a location I've been to a few times. Interestingly, this is the first time I haven't been carried there.
Mitsuuru: Kyon-chan!
The minute Asahina-senpai sees me come up the stairs, he rushes forward as though to hug me... but stops short, and puts his arms behind his back, embarrassed.
Aww. You don't need to feel that way, Asahina-senpai. You can hug me any time.
Mitsuuru: A-Are you feeling better, Kyon-chan?
...Better?
Kyonko: I'm feeling pretty good, yeah.
Aside from the creepy imprints on my arms, yeah, I'm fine.
Mitsuuru: Thank god... I was so worried, with what you said yesterday and all... and since you were all alone last night, I figured...
Kyonko: …? What did I say yesterday?
Mitsuuru: Well, you know about-- er, nothing.
…?
His eyes had darted over to Itsuko as he said that.
Kyonko: …What's up with you two?
Itsuko: I would prefer that remain a secret for now.
Are we going to be firing that back and forth all day?
It was then that the state of the only other person in the stairwell distracted me.
Nagato was standing away from all of us, facing the corner. Honestly, he seemed to have even less presence than usual.
Kyonko: ...Nagato...?
Yuuki: All resources spent maintaining key programs. Noninterference would be appreciated.
Kyonko: ...What?
Mitsuuru: He was like that when I got here, too... he just keeps saying that. I think he's broken.
Itsuko: He mentioned something like that last night, as well. He seems to be having trouble keeping himself active without the support of the TFEI main server.
Kyonko: …
Itsuko: In any case, now that we are, indeed, on the other side, I would like to continue our meeting from yesterday. So, first... why do we not discuss the nature of this universe, now that we have spent more time in it?
Her eyes dart towards Asahina-senpai, who flinches. He was her main opponent yesterday, after all.
Before Itsuko can come out with her latest garbage, I should come up with something.
Kyonko: ...Actually... I have something to point out.
Itsuko: Oh? Please, go on.
Kyonko: The other day, I had been thinking about a theory I once heard... something about how each choice you make spawns an entirely different universe for each choice, leading to an infinite number of universes where each choice is played out....
Itsuko: I assume it was our endless summer that caused this line of thinking.
Kyonko: ...Yeah. What I had thought was the following possibility: What if every single one of the fifteen thousand-odd--
Yuuki: Fifteen thousand four hundred and ninety-eight.
Kyonko: Er, thank you, Nagato. What if every single one of those universes didn't loop back... but continued on instead? I know that's probably impossible, but what if this universe was similar? Like...
Itsuko: ...I'm starting to see where you're going with this. You're talking about Everett's Many-Worlds Interpretation, correct? You're saying that we're in a world where several people we all know just happened to be born the opposite gender.
Thank you for stealing my thunder, Itsuko.
Mitsuuru: Wait, wait. I'm sorry, Kyon-chan, but the Many-Worlds Interpretation isn't even accurate.
Itsuko: Oh, how so?
Mitsuuru: It can't be proven, for one thing.
Itsuko: And? That doesn't mean it's wrong.
Mitsuuru: Oh, come on. You should know better than to use that defense. An absence of proof is not proof of the thing itself. Furthermore, modern theories like Einstein's special relativity are all solved by assuming one universe.
Itsuko: Funny you should bring up something like physics. Forgive my ignorance, but doesn't time travel itself break established laws of physics?
Mitsuuru: I... that's classified, I can't...
Itsuko: Exactly.
Itsuko turns to me.
Itsuko: It's a well-thought-out idea, but it really doesn't explain why we are here... or why the Suzumiya-san in this universe has any sort of power. Fortunately, I have several explanations.
Oh, here we go.
I really, really want to have Itsuko and Mitsuuru fire off blue and red text at each other, but that would be too blatant.
Good scene, though incomplete. I liked the random theory. It was easy to read to me(who don't have english as primary language), so I guess it won't tire most players, if you keep like that when complete the scene.
Mitsuuru was certanly annoying here, it seens people here don't like him too much. :heh: He was not wrong, btw, as the theory is, endeed, not accurate. He did fail in logic for think that not being accurate would also mean it is wrong, though.
Oh, well, looking forward Itsuko's theorys.
Oh, almost forgot. Poor Yuuki, it broke. :p
Triple_R
2009-08-29, 08:19
Urrrrrrrrgh fuck.
Tired and head hurts. I'll finish this tomorrow. For now:
The Answers (III)
Itsuko: Are you feeling alright?
We were heading towards the stairwell in the Old Shack.
Kyonko: …What makes you ask that?
Itsuko: You keep tugging on your left sleeve as though you're trying to hide something.
Ugh. Why do you have to notice every little detail?
Kyonko: I would prefer that remain a secret for now.
Itsuko: Haha, touche. I'll leave you with your secrets, as you will leave me with mine.
That sounds rather like an ultimatum.
Itsuko: You think so? That was not my intention.
...I'm glad we're friends, Itsuko.
Itsuko: Me too.
The place where we were meeting Asahina-senpai and Nagato was that little place at the top of the stairwell that acts as some sort of storage for the art club, a location I've been to a few times. Interestingly, this is the first time I haven't been carried there.
Mitsuuru: Kyon-chan!
The minute Asahina-senpai sees me come up the stairs, he rushes forward as though to hug me... but stops short, and puts his arms behind his back, embarrassed.
Aww. You don't need to feel that way, Asahina-senpai. You can hug me any time.
Mitsuuru: A-Are you feeling better, Kyon-chan?
...Better?
Kyonko: I'm feeling pretty good, yeah.
Aside from the creepy imprints on my arms, yeah, I'm fine.
Mitsuuru: Thank god... I was so worried, with what you said yesterday and all... and since you were all alone last night, I figured...
Kyonko: …? What did I say yesterday?
Mitsuuru: Well, you know about-- er, nothing.
…?
His eyes had darted over to Itsuko as he said that.
Kyonko: …What's up with you two?
Itsuko: I would prefer that remain a secret for now.
Are we going to be firing that back and forth all day?
It was then that the state of the only other person in the stairwell distracted me.
Nagato was standing away from all of us, facing the corner. Honestly, he seemed to have even less presence than usual.
Kyonko: ...Nagato...?
Yuuki: All resources spent maintaining key programs. Noninterference would be appreciated.
Kyonko: ...What?
Mitsuuru: He was like that when I got here, too... he just keeps saying that. I think he's broken.
Itsuko: He mentioned something like that last night, as well. He seems to be having trouble keeping himself active without the support of the TFEI main server.
Kyonko: …
Itsuko: In any case, now that we are, indeed, on the other side, I would like to continue our meeting from yesterday. So, first... why do we not discuss the nature of this universe, now that we have spent more time in it?
Her eyes dart towards Asahina-senpai, who flinches. He was her main opponent yesterday, after all.
Before Itsuko can come out with her latest garbage, I should come up with something.
Kyonko: ...Actually... I have something to point out.
Itsuko: Oh? Please, go on.
Kyonko: The other day, I had been thinking about a theory I once heard... something about how each choice you make spawns an entirely different universe for each choice, leading to an infinite number of universes where each choice is played out....
Itsuko: I assume it was our endless summer that caused this line of thinking.
Kyonko: ...Yeah. What I had thought was the following possibility: What if every single one of the fifteen thousand-odd--
Yuuki: Fifteen thousand four hundred and ninety-eight.
Kyonko: Er, thank you, Nagato. What if every single one of those universes didn't loop back... but continued on instead? I know that's probably impossible, but what if this universe was similar? Like...
Itsuko: ...I'm starting to see where you're going with this. You're talking about Everett's Many-Worlds Interpretation, correct? You're saying that we're in a world where several people we all know just happened to be born the opposite gender.
Thank you for stealing my thunder, Itsuko.
Mitsuuru: Wait, wait. I'm sorry, Kyon-chan, but the Many-Worlds Interpretation isn't even accurate.
Itsuko: Oh, how so?
Mitsuuru: It can't be proven, for one thing.
Itsuko: And? That doesn't mean it's wrong.
Mitsuuru: Oh, come on. You should know better than to use that defense. An absence of proof is not proof of the thing itself. Furthermore, modern theories like Einstein's special relativity are all solved by assuming one universe.
Itsuko: Funny you should bring up something like physics. Forgive my ignorance, but doesn't time travel itself break established laws of physics?
Mitsuuru: I... that's classified, I can't...
Itsuko: Exactly.
Itsuko turns to me.
Itsuko: It's a well-thought-out idea, but it really doesn't explain why we are here... or why the Suzumiya-san in this universe has any sort of power. Fortunately, I have several explanations.
Oh, here we go.
I really, really want to have Itsuko and Mitsuuru fire off blue and red text at each other, but that would be too blatant.
Kyonko actually seems rather sweet here. That's nice to read.
The back-and-forth between Itsuko and Mitsuuru was pretty well-handled. I was more impressed by Kyonko/Itsuko's side of the argument, but that's probably how it should be, particularly given how Mitsuuru was hampered by the "it's classified" problem that he keeps running into. :heh:
CanadaAotS
2009-08-29, 08:23
Broken Yuuki... Prime example of one of the downsides to remote computing, you're screwed if you lose your internet connection haha.
Assuming I'm right about what's wrong with him.
HikariNiwa
2009-08-29, 08:23
Urrrrrrrrgh fuck.
Tired and head hurts. I'll finish this tomorrow. For now:
The Answers (III)
Itsuko: Are you feeling alright?
We were heading towards the stairwell in the Old Shack.
Kyonko: …What makes you ask that?
Itsuko: You keep tugging on your left sleeve as though you're trying to hide something.
Ugh. Why do you have to notice every little detail?
Kyonko: I would prefer that remain a secret for now.
Itsuko: Haha, touche. I'll leave you with your secrets, as you will leave me with mine.
That sounds rather like an ultimatum.
Itsuko: You think so? That was not my intention.
...I'm glad we're friends, Itsuko.
Itsuko: Me too.
The place where we were meeting Asahina-senpai and Nagato was that little place at the top of the stairwell that acts as some sort of storage for the art club, a location I've been to a few times. Interestingly, this is the first time I haven't been carried there.
Mitsuuru: Kyon-chan!
The minute Asahina-senpai sees me come up the stairs, he rushes forward as though to hug me... but stops short, and puts his arms behind his back, embarrassed.
Aww. You don't need to feel that way, Asahina-senpai. You can hug me any time.
Mitsuuru: A-Are you feeling better, Kyon-chan?
...Better?
Kyonko: I'm feeling pretty good, yeah.
Aside from the creepy imprints on my arms, yeah, I'm fine.
Mitsuuru: Thank god... I was so worried, with what you said yesterday and all... and since you were all alone last night, I figured...
Kyonko: …? What did I say yesterday?
Mitsuuru: Well, you know about-- er, nothing.
…?
His eyes had darted over to Itsuko as he said that.
Kyonko: …What's up with you two?
Itsuko: I would prefer that remain a secret for now.
Are we going to be firing that back and forth all day?
It was then that the state of the only other person in the stairwell distracted me.
Nagato was standing away from all of us, facing the corner. Honestly, he seemed to have even less presence than usual.
Kyonko: ...Nagato...?
Yuuki: All resources spent maintaining key programs. Noninterference would be appreciated.
Kyonko: ...What?
Mitsuuru: He was like that when I got here, too... he just keeps saying that. I think he's broken.
Itsuko: He mentioned something like that last night, as well. He seems to be having trouble keeping himself active without the support of the TFEI main server.
Kyonko: …
Itsuko: In any case, now that we are, indeed, on the other side, I would like to continue our meeting from yesterday. So, first... why do we not discuss the nature of this universe, now that we have spent more time in it?
Her eyes dart towards Asahina-senpai, who flinches. He was her main opponent yesterday, after all.
Before Itsuko can come out with her latest garbage, I should come up with something.
Kyonko: ...Actually... I have something to point out.
Itsuko: Oh? Please, go on.
Kyonko: The other day, I had been thinking about a theory I once heard... something about how each choice you make spawns an entirely different universe for each choice, leading to an infinite number of universes where each choice is played out....
Itsuko: I assume it was our endless summer that caused this line of thinking.
Kyonko: ...Yeah. What I had thought was the following possibility: What if every single one of the fifteen thousand-odd--
Yuuki: Fifteen thousand four hundred and ninety-eight.
Kyonko: Er, thank you, Nagato. What if every single one of those universes didn't loop back... but continued on instead? I know that's probably impossible, but what if this universe was similar? Like...
Itsuko: ...I'm starting to see where you're going with this. You're talking about Everett's Many-Worlds Interpretation, correct? You're saying that we're in a world where several people we all know just happened to be born the opposite gender.
Thank you for stealing my thunder, Itsuko.
Mitsuuru: Wait, wait. I'm sorry, Kyon-chan, but the Many-Worlds Interpretation isn't even accurate.
Itsuko: Oh, how so?
Mitsuuru: It can't be proven, for one thing.
Itsuko: And? That doesn't mean it's wrong.
Mitsuuru: Oh, come on. You should know better than to use that defense. An absence of proof is not proof of the thing itself. Furthermore, modern theories like Einstein's special relativity are all solved by assuming one universe.
Itsuko: Funny you should bring up something like physics. Forgive my ignorance, but doesn't time travel itself break established laws of physics?
Mitsuuru: I... that's classified, I can't...
Itsuko: Exactly.
Itsuko turns to me.
Itsuko: It's a well-thought-out idea, but it really doesn't explain why we are here... or why the Suzumiya-san in this universe has any sort of power. Fortunately, I have several explanations.
Oh, here we go.
I really, really want to have Itsuko and Mitsuuru fire off blue and red text at each other, but that would be too blatant.
Itsuko: Funny you should bring up something like physics. Forgive my ignorance, but doesn't time travel itself break established laws of physics?
Hm? I could have sworn time travel didn't break the laws of physics... or has this summer been too long?
Bells are Ringing
Kyon: "They... left the school..."
"Nagato and I are at the school gates, being stared at by a couple of groups of girls under a tree. Hey, nothing to look at here, go back to gossiping."
"As an aside, I'm exhausted."
Kyon: "Now... what do... we do... Nagato...?"
Yuki: "…..."
"...Something seems a little off about her."
"At that moment, the bell rang, signaling the end of lunch."
"Well, I suppose we should..."
[DECISION POINT HERE]
1)"Give up because I'm tired."
2)"Give up because the bell just rang."
3)"Give up because Nagato seems tired."
Lazy Way Out
Kyon: "Hey... Nagato... I'm tired. Let's just... go back."
Yuki: "…"
"Without any kind of response, Nagato turns around starts walking back to the school."
"I follow her, since I want to ask about what the hell is going on."
Kyon: "...So, uh... what, exactly... was that?"
Yuki: "…"
Kyon: "...Why did we chase him on foot when he was jumping straight through windows?"
Yuki: "…"
Kyon: "...Are you okay, Nagato?"
Yuki: "...Yes."
Kyon: "Should I... walk you to class...?"
Yuki: "...No need."
"We part at the doorway."
"…"
"What a strange day... I should get to class before I have to hear-"
Haruhi: "Kyon, you're late!"
"...that."
Observant Way Out
Kyon: "Hey, Nagato... Let's stop. It's... time for... class."
Yuki: "…"
"She nods, and turns around, and heads back to the school building."
"I follow her, since I want to ask about what the hell is going on."
Kyon: "So, uh, what, exactly, was that?"
Yuki: "…Unknown."
Kyon: "...That so?"
"I find it kind of hard to believe Nagato of all people doesn't know exactly who or what we were chasing, but since when has Nagato ever lied to me?"
Kyon: "…But, uh why did we chase him on foot when he was jumping straight through windows?"
Yuki: "Draws attention."
Kyon: "...You have a point..."
"We don't want that to get back to Haruhi, after all."
"Oh god, she's going to hard to deal with when she hears about all this."
"We end up separating at the front door. I guess I should hurry, since I don't want to hear-"
Haruhi: "Kyon, you're late!"
"Again..."
Concerned Way Out
Kyon: "Hey, Nagato... You're... tired of this, right...? Let's just... go back."
Yuki: "…I am fine."
"Even as she says that, Nagato turns around and heads back towards the school building."
"I follow her, since I want to ask about what the hell is going on."
Kyon: "So, uh, what, exactly, was that?"
Yuki: "…"
Kyon: "...Nagato?"
Yuki: "…Humanoid Interface?"
"…That would explain the jumping through windows, then."
Kyon: "Another one... like Asakura? Where did... he come from, anyway?"
"Nagato stops dead."
Yuki: "Unknown."
Kyon: "...That so?"
"Well, if Nagato says she doesn't know, she doesn't know. Still, that's strange. Nagato should know about her own people..."
Kyon: "If he was another interface, why were we following him on foot? Why didn't you follow him through the windows and walls?"
Yuki: "Draws attention."
Kyon: "...You have a point."
"We don't want that to get back to Haruhi, after all."
"Oh god, she's going to hard to deal with when she hears about all this."
Kyon: "You sure you're alright, Nagato?"
Yuki: "…"
"She nods, just like always. But..."
Yuki: "...Thank you."
"Is the last thing she says to me."
"...Another Humanoid Interface... huh? Wonder where he is now."
"We end up separating at the front door. I guess I should hurry, since I don't want to hear-"
Haruhi: "Kyon, you're late!"
"Again..."
dragon4dudes
2009-08-29, 08:38
Itsuko: Funny you should bring up something like physics. Forgive my ignorance, but doesn't time travel itself break established laws of physics?
Hm? I could have sworn time travel didn't break the laws of physics... or has this summer been too long?
I guess it depends on the interpretation of time travel and how it is done. If you assume time travel requires exceeding the speed of light, then it break's Einstein's theory, but if you assume some other method, then it may not. Fully depends on your interpretation of time travel.
In any case, since Koizumi can (like us) only speculate as to how Time-Travel works, that line is internally consistent.
Look up time travel on the Wiki. Time travel is only possible as a thought experiment. Relativity provides us with examples where time doesn't flow right, but you have to violate other laws of nature to actually exploit it; such as having a NEGATIVE amount of energy.
Also I would like to issue a correction to the SF content I suggested to the writeup. It should be Einstein's General relativity that should be referenced, not Special Relativity. Special Relativity, despite being called "special", is the boring one; and General Relativity, is the cool one that speculates all the time travel shennanigans. Honestly, Special Relativity should have been called Specific Relativity, as the theory is only applied to the observations of motion. (this is probably thanks to incompetent translation of German to English, which I think all of us here are familliar with :heh:)
The distruption and inconvenience resulting from this is deeply regretted.
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-08-29, 10:27
In all fairness, flying around as a big red(or in Itsuko's case, blue) orb doesn't exactly follow the laws of physics, either. :heh:
Triple_R
2009-08-29, 10:29
Look up time travel on the Wiki. Time travel is only possible as a thought experiment. Relativity provides us with examples where time doesn't flow right, but you have to violate other laws of nature to actually exploit it; such as having a NEGATIVE amount of energy.
Also I would like to issue a correction to the SF content I suggested to the writeup. It should be Einstein's General relativity that should be referenced, not Special Relativity. Special Relativity, despite being called "special", is the boring one; and General Relativity, is the cool one that speculates all the time travel shennanigans. Honestly, Special Relativity should have been called Specific Relativity, as the theory is only applied to the observations of motion. (this is probably thanks to incompetent translation of German to English, which I think all of us here are familliar with :heh:)
The distruption and inconvenience resulting from this is deeply regretted.
Even in reality, this isn't necessarily true.
I remember learning in Chemistry/Physics, that we know very little about what goes on within a black hole. The laws of physics might go entirely out the window within a black hole.
The laws of physics might go entirely out the window within a black hole.Given that not even light is able to escape a black hole, I'd say it's pretty certain.
Even in reality, this isn't necessarily true.
I remember learning in Chemistry/Physics, that we know very little about what goes on within a black hole. The laws of physics might go entirely out the window within a black hole.
Actually, from what I remember, we know absolutely nothing about what goes on inside of a black hole, except that, in some cases, it produces gamma-rays that come shooting out of them (assuming, of course, that the Active Galactic Nuclei that we observe are in fact black holes. We're not sure, given that we can't actually see them).
Add that to the fact that there isn't a unified theory that successfully unites macro physics (Galaxy and Universe scale physics) with micro physics (sub-atomic scale physics) and we have a whole other range of problems.
This is why there are so many theories about time travel and black holes, actually--most of them (that aren't just under-researched Hollywood plot devices, at least) could be feasibly correct under a particular physics theory.
Finally, a point which might make the rest of this post sorta pointless storywise: The Asahina's don't have a perfect understanding of time travel, as has been noted a couple of times in the VN. Kyon picks up on this in BLR (moreso in the anime, IMO) when he points out that, given Mikuru's earlier explanation of time travel, his actions in the past didn't make very much sense.
More stuff:
http://www.100megsfree4.com/fstar/GBHS/HarukiWIP6.png
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-08-30, 05:20
More stuff:
http://www.100megsfree4.com/fstar/GBHS/HarukiWIP6.png
... Getting a bit of an "Itsuki" vibe from the face and bangs... I'm not really much help, am I? :heh:
vivify93
2009-08-30, 05:41
<insert picture of awesomeness>
Hot!
I don't get much of an Itsuki vibe m'self. It's there, but I always fancied Haruki to be the unholy union of Itsuki and Kyon's looks, Haruhi's mannerisms, and a bunch of tropes. Which makes him awesomepants.
The best part of him? His hair. I swear, Binjovi, that hair is amazing. It's the perfect blend of Haruki and Haruhi.
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-08-30, 06:10
unholy union of Itsuki and Kyon
Only the resident yaoi fanboy of the group could get away with saying this...
Taking things out of context is FUN! :p
vivify93
2009-08-30, 06:47
Well, I do loathe me some Itsukyon-MM. :p
srsly, worst pairing in any fandom ever. Even as a CRACK pairing.
Itsukyon-FF, now that is hot.
...And yes, this just goes to show you how much I hate the Itsukyon-MM pairing. :heh:
Now, as I've ranted many times in the past, Harukyon (for any gender combination) is a great pairing.
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-08-30, 07:13
... I dislike most pairings involving Kyon... unless it's with Haruhi. She's pretty much the only person in the series that can dish out as much as him. The other brigade members(male and female) have enough to worry about without Kyon screwing around, Haruki would probably kill him... and Kyonko has suffered more than enough as it is. :heh:
More stuff:
http://www.100megsfree4.com/fstar/GBHS/HarukiWIP6.png
Awesome work. For layman eyes, like mines, the art is flawless. I also loved his expression. It is close to a 'neutral face', yet he still has a mischievous smile.
I just find kinda weird this bangs(is that the word? The long part of his haird overing his hairband and ears). I believe most fanart of him don't have it right? But then, intrigued with vivify's post, I looked at Haruhi and noticed she also has then. Interesting touch.
PP:
... I dislike most pairings involving Kyon... unless it's with Haruhi. She's pretty much the only person in the series that can dish out as much as him. The other brigade members(male and female) have enough to worry about without Kyon screwing around, Haruki would probably kill him... and Kyonko has suffered more than enough as it is. :heh:
You will hate me if I say he makes a good pair with Yuki right? :p
Thinking on that now, I don't really think Yuuki and Kyonko make a good pair... Probably because I haven't read a genderbend Disappearance yet.
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-08-30, 07:17
Haruki's bangs = part below the band thingie. Which is what's actually giving me most of the Itsuki vibe, as they look like a shorter version of his hair. :heh:
Haruki's bangs = part below the band thingie. Which is what's actually giving me most of the Itsuki vibe, as they look like a shorter version of his hair. :heh:
Oh, then I used the wrong word. However, I don't quite agree with you. is somewhat similar to Itsuki's hair, but I don't even ought about him when I saw this image..
Also, thanks for including the wholle legs... However, now I think it might be a problem if we need show him full body with uniform but not at school(due to the indor shoes). :heh: However as he is probably not 'going school' anymore after Day5, it shouldn't be a problem.
You will hate me if I say he makes a good pair with Yuki right? :p
Thinking on that now, I don't really think Yuuki and Kyonko make a good pair... Probably because I haven't read a genderbend Disappearance yet.
Theoretically, they'd still make a good pair, since the whole point of Yuki's personality change in Disappearance was to become what Kyon wanted. Of course, the question would be what exactly would Kyonko want Yuuki to become...
Thanks for the good words, guys. Glad to know I'm doing my job well enough.
One of my philosophies regarding seitenkan is that the gender-reversed characters should always give the impression visually of the canon character that they were based on. The reason for this is simple. If you make a gender-switched character, base some part of their personality on the original, and make them look unrelated to the original, you've basically just made an original character. Since males and females in anime generally have different basic facial structures and eyes, one of the things that can remain (mostly) constant is the hair. This is great because the hair in anime is typically one of the major defining features of a character. And so, yes, my Haruki's hair is, for the most part, a shorter version of Haruhi's. The same applies for all of them.
As for the Itsuki bangs... Yeah, you can partially blame danchou for that. But to be honest, the way I have it here, it looks better then if it were just coming straight down. It'll probably look a lot less like Itsuki once the dark brown hair color and bright yellow hairband colors are applied.
Also, thanks for including the wholle legs... However, now I think it might be a problem if we need show him full body with uniform but not at school(due to the indor shoes). :heh: However as he is probably not 'going school' anymore after Day5, it shouldn't be a problem.
I had this same thought while I was drawing him. Every character will be drawn in their indoor shoes by default (excluding Imouto, Otouto, and any character in street clothes). The indoor shoes are easy to draw and are the same for all characters, while their outdoor shoes are different from person to person. When it is decided that a character will be shown full body outside of school, then I'll make a copy of the sprites needed, but with the shoes changed as that should be fairly simple to do.
Thanks for the good words, guys. Glad to know I'm doing my job well enough.
You really don't need to worry about it ;)
One of my philosophies regarding seitenkan is that the gender-reversed characters should always give the impression visually of the canon character that they were based on. The reason for this is simple. If you make a gender-switched character, base some part of their personality on the original, and make them look unrelated to the original, you've basically just made an original character. Since males and females in anime generally have different basic facial structures and eyes, one of the things that can remain (mostly) constant is the hair. This is great because the hair in anime is typically one of the major defining features of a character. And so, yes, my Haruki's hair is, for the most part, a shorter version of Haruhi's. The same applies for all of them.
You are right. I only found weird until realize Haruhi hasthe same hair style. It isn't, either, as that style is girly. Now uo have mentioned it, Is funny how most artist do not draw like that.
I had this same thought while I was drawing him. Every character will be drawn in their indoor shoes by default (excluding Imouto, Otouto, and any character in street clothes). The indoor shoes are easy to draw and are the same for all characters, while their outdoor shoes are different from person to person. When it is decided that a character will be shown full body outside of school, then I'll make a copy of the sprites needed, but with the shoes changed as that should be fairly simple to do.
You are right. No need to worry about it now. Just a thought I had when I saw the image. Anyway, you probably wouldn't need to make a copy of the sprite, to save space, I believe a transparent image of the shoe would be better. So we past over the image. This could also be done for any other small feature that might be or not with the character (say, Nagatos's glasses, if they come back for any reason).
vivify93
2009-08-30, 12:01
God, I'm just going to have a total fangirl moment here--that hair is fucking amazing. I want to molest it.
...Although, I'm not really sure how one goes about molesting hair...
...See? It's shit like this that makes me a bad fangirl. This is why I usually don't venture out of my fanboyism. :heh:
Triple_R
2009-08-30, 12:06
Binjovi - When it comes to reminding people of the "normal gender" character that the gender-bended character is based off of, your picture is probably the best gender-bended picture I've seen. When it comes to facial structure and hair, you can definitely see how key elements of Haruhi have been retained in the translation over to Haruki. Actually, when it comes to facial structure and body posture, this picture really resonates Haruhi's personality through Haruki. Very nicely done.
You are right. No need to worry about it now. Just a thought I had when I saw the image. Anyway, you probably wouldn't need to make a copy of the sprite, to save space, I believe a transparent image of the shoe would be better. So we past over the image. This could also be done for any other small feature that might be or not with the character (say, Nagatos's glasses, if they come back for any reason).
The problem with that is size. If we want Mikuru to wear some cute little sandals or something, they're going to be smaller than the indoor shoes. So, when you place them on top, you'll still see the indoor shoes underneath. We could just cut the sprites into pieces, however, and then just stick them together that way. Actually, that would probably be the best way to do it. In any case, I think we need to write up a design document so that we'll have a level of continuity between everyone's work.
More stuff:
http://www.100megsfree4.com/fstar/GBHS/HarukiWIP6.png
Hmm, he looks ... very youthful. Younger than usual. I like it.
wittyusername
2009-08-30, 13:38
More stuff:
http://www.100megsfree4.com/fstar/GBHS/HarukiWIP6.png
As everyone has already stated, this is incredibly awesome. The hair, the expression...it's all perfect for Haruki.
God, I'm just going to have a total fangirl moment here--that hair is fucking amazing. I want to molest it.
...Although, I'm not really sure how one goes about molesting hair...
Do I need to show you the many doujinshi that clearly show how one goes about this? Most of them seem to involve Haruhi with a ponytail and Kyon with bad judgement, but I'm sure there are some involving Haruki. Those would probably be more about Haruki commiting, uh, unspeakable acts towards Kyonko's hair, though...
The problem with that is size. If we want Mikuru to wear some cute little sandals or something, they're going to be smaller than the indoor shoes. So, when you place them on top, you'll still see the indoor shoes underneath. We could just cut the sprites into pieces, however, and then just stick them together that way. Actually, that would probably be the best way to do it. In any case, I think we need to write up a design document so that we'll have a level of continuity between everyone's work.
Nice thinking. Yeah, that would be the better way to save space (and, it seens that game will need it :heh: ). So, if you and the other artists can do it, it will probably be good to make the game in a reasonable size.
This can also be used for faces and for the arms, they offen change while the main body still the same right? Also, maybe, the hair, at last for who has a change on it middle game (a ponytail Haruhi? Also, I believe Kaisos said something agout Haruki losing his hair band).
PP:
Just make sure to have all the images at same size(not file size, the image size). With each piece placed where it is suppose to be. So it is easy to mount on the script.
HikariNiwa
2009-08-30, 21:22
http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2009/08/31/nagaru-tanigawa-has-started-new-haruhi-novel/
New Haruhi novel? Hopefully it provides us with the answers we seek.
swtrooper42
2009-08-30, 21:38
Yeah. I'm excited.
It's being talked about over in the Novel & Manga thread.
CrowKenobi
2009-08-30, 22:17
Theoretically, they'd still make a good pair, since the whole point of Yuki's personality change in Disappearance was to become what Kyon wanted. The problem with that is I think that Kyon doesn't know what he wants... :p :heh:
CanadaAotS
2009-08-30, 23:57
http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2009/08/31/nagaru-tanigawa-has-started-new-haruhi-novel/
New Haruhi novel? Hopefully it provides us with the answers we seek.
He's "preparing" to write the tenth novel. Leave it to Sankaku Complex to sensationalize it :p
CrowKenobi
2009-08-31, 00:49
He's "preparing" to write the tenth novel. Leave it to Sankaku Complex to sensationalize it :pHey, when we were promised the 10th novel three years ago, a little sensationism doesn't hurt. :heh:
But then, Artefact does like to sensationalize a lot of things... :eyespin: :p
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-08-31, 00:59
Hey, when we were promised the 10th novel three years ago
"I'm a little sick of hearing about this 'three years ago' crap"
"... Three years ago..."
... What? :heh:
One day...about a year and a half from now.'
Itsuko: "Three years ago...."
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e2/Mikataiyou/Even%20more%20recent/thirdfacepalm001.gif
So. Many. Uses.
The problem with that is I think that Kyon doesn't know what he wants... :p :heh:
True enough... else Disappearance wouldn't have worked as a story. *Insert that quote here about knowing what you want and getting it that I'm currently too sleep-deprived to remember properly*
Referring back to that shipping discussion that was going on earlier: despite being something of a Yuki fanboy, I don't really like any of the Kyon pairings for the normal universe outside of Haruhi and Kyon. He puts Mikuuru on a pedestal a bit too much, normal!Yuki is... well, an alien, he's too aware of the change for Disappearance!Yuki, and Itsuki isn't gay. Oh, and I feel like Kyon wouldn't be all that interested in self-proclaimed NPC Fang-tan.
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-08-31, 01:29
Actually... Tsuruya would probably be #2 on his list. I mean, she's Haruhi minus the drawbacks. :heh:
Actually... Tsuruya would probably be #2 on his list. I mean, she's Haruhi minus the drawbacks. :heh:
But the drawbacks are what make Haruhi interesting. I mean, I really don't think Kyon thinks in Tsuruya romantcly at all. Besides, the thing that make Kyon similar to Haruhi is exactly something Tsuruya don't has: the love by super natural stuff.
By the way where was Disappearance Yuki is based in what Kyon want? I really don't remember nothing of it. Mikuru said she thiks Yuki envy her somehow. However, the alternate Yuki is nothing like Mikuru. Even their shyness are different.
But the drawbacks are what make Haruhi interesting. I mean, I really don't think Kyon thinks in Tsuruya romantcly at all. Besides, the thing that make Kyon similar to Haruhi is exactly something Tsuruya don't has: the love by super natural stuff.
Exactly. Although I think it'd be more accurate to say that Tsuruya enjoys supernatural stuff, but doesn't want to participate in it, being happier to just watch from the sidelines.
By the way where was Disappearance Yuki is based in what Kyon want? I really don't remember nothing of it. Mikuru said she thiks Yuki envy her somehow. However, the alternate Yuki is nothing like Mikuru. Even their shyness are different.
Disappearance!Yuki is actually the only pairing I could see working with Kyon outside of Haruhi, if Kyon wasn't aware that something wasn't right (ie, if she had wiped his memory as well).
Mikuuru... Kyon just spends so much time putting her up on a pedestal that I can't see a relationship ever properly working out between them.
Kyon likes weird girls. He seems to be the only one trying to talk to Haruhi pre-haircut. Comments (mentally) on her looks before her haircut. Then after her haircut gets moody...but then also noticed...to his annoyance....he's doomed now.
Archon_Wing
2009-08-31, 22:01
Omg, this is hillarous. :heh: I'd never imagine that it'd be possible to create a swapped gender version of the story that wasn't pornographic. ;)
Though I don't really like Haruki's headband so much since he would be this super manly individual. Thus, he must either have his shirt unbuttoned , or have it torn a lot for no good reason to provide fanservice for the female audience. ;)
Itsuko's personality would be quite similar to Ryoko, imo. She would also provide tons of swimsuit related fanservice.
Good job, folks. :)
DJ_RockmanX
2009-08-31, 23:44
Who the hell do you think we are? We know exactly what we're doing. Just not at all times.
We know what we are doing...just not exactly what project is up for debate or work and any given time. Artists and all that jazz.
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-09-01, 00:05
I certainly know what I'm doing: Nothing.
vivify93
2009-09-01, 01:16
Though I don't really like Haruki's headband so much since he would be this super manly individual. Thus, he must either have his shirt unbuttoned , or have it torn a lot for no good reason to provide fanservice for the female audience.
As the Resident Yaoi Fanboy, I'll have to veto this on the grounds that lolno.
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-09-01, 01:20
Wow... if vivify is going to say no to something fanservicey in regards to a male character, I think that's a pretty good sign it shouldn't be done. :heh:
Archon_Wing
2009-09-01, 01:23
Very well, I'll return later with more gimmicky crap to increase ratings. ;)
DJ_RockmanX
2009-09-01, 01:24
Do your best. We're pretty tough. Especially given how most things are already figured out. :p
Archon_Wing
2009-09-01, 01:26
Ah, but that's what spinoffs are for. :p
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-09-01, 01:30
Spinoffs? This looks like a job for... someone else, I'm too busy with doing nothing. :p
CrowKenobi
2009-09-01, 01:30
Do your best. We're pretty tough. Especially given how most things are already figured out. :pWhich doesn't stop us from going off-topic now and again! :heh:
Hosaka-type fanservice doesn't fit Haruki since Haruki is from the Kamina/Harima/Tamaki school of manlyness! :D
Archon_Wing
2009-09-01, 02:09
lol ok, I was thinking of over the top GARness when I saw this topic. :heh:
CanadaAotS
2009-09-01, 02:15
It's about the differences in GAR.
Wearing your shirt opened all day Hosaka style GAR isn't really directly comparable to Kamina style I'll fight a giant mecha with my Katana as you believe in me who believes in you.
Then again none compare to Guts style GAR. PLEASE, FIND ME SOMEONE MORE GAR THEN GUTS. IT DOESN'T EXIST!
Er... this got really off topic.
Tsuruya is the best of all normal-verse girls. By far. Don't even fight me on this...
Wait, that's technically off-topic as well, since we're supposed to talk about seitenkan. Damn, I give up.
Can we get Itsuko to do the Hosaka-type fanservice instead?
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-09-01, 02:21
Tsuruya is the best of all normal-verse girls. By far. Don't even fight me on this...
Wait, that's technically off-topic as well, since we're supposed to talk about seitenkan. Damn, I give up.
Male Tsuruya is awesome. And a gender-appropriate Batman counterpart.
Kaisos Erranon
2009-09-01, 02:55
Wearing your shirt opened all day Hosaka style GAR isn't really directly comparable to Kamina style I'll fight a giant mecha with my Katana as you believe in me who believes in you.
Certain people would consider this less "GAR" and more "stupidity", but I'm not one of them.
Need to have Haruki do something like this.
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-09-01, 03:08
It takes... wait, I've already quoted that line. :p
Kaisos Erranon
2009-09-01, 03:11
What, "it takes an idiot to do cool things, that's why it's cool"?
<3 FLCL <3
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-09-01, 03:13
Yes, that one. :heh:
Kaisos Erranon
2009-09-01, 03:16
Yes, that one. :heh:
Best. Anime. Ever.
Of course I only say that because it was the first non-4kids anime I ever watched, but...
Kogetsu Shirogane
2009-09-01, 03:23
No, you're pretty much right. The only flaw I can think of is that it's too short.
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