Shakugan no Shana II - Episode 22 Discussion / Poll

[Pellissier]

Welcome to the discussion thread for Shakugan no Shana II, Episode 22.

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[ashlay]

21 weeks, all for this moment!

right off the bat, Sabrac's alive! Guess killing the battle body meant nothing, he'll just keep regenerating as long as he still has the main.

Kantaro comes back and seems to break some big news to Yuji on the bridge (is it like every revelation in Yuji's life takes place there? 0_o)

Looks like Shana and Yoshida have a "date" together, and decide to have a little contest over who's going to get Yuji (sending him letters to spend christmas together)

Wilhelmina thinks a little about her own love (*sniff* Merihim...)

And right when everyone is waiting...


darn, looks like Hecate showed up and removed the Reiji Maigo from Yuji instead. bummer.
Alright, looking like an anime original ending everyone. Time to go home. :\

[Sinestra]

21 weeks, all for this moment!

right off the bat, Sabrac's alive! Guess killing the battle body meant nothing, he'll just keep regenerating as long as he still has the main.

Kantaro comes back and seems to break some big news to Yuji on the bridge (is it like every revelation in Yuji's life takes place there? 0_o)

Looks like Shana and Yoshida have a "date" together, and decide to have a little contest over who's going to get Yuji (sending him letters to spend christmas together)

Wilhelmina thinks a little about her own love (*sniff* Merihim...)

And right when everyone is waiting...


darn, looks like Hecate showed up and removed the Reiji Maigo from Yuji instead. bummer.
Alright, looking like an anime original ending everyone. Time to go home. :\

This does not sound good not good at all wait a min so Wilhelmina thinks about her own love? hum thats interesting lucky guy.

So Hecate finally gets Yuji and removes the Reiji Maigo? that kind of puts a damper on Yuji like staying alive doesnt it?

[Machina]

This does not sound good not good at all wait a min so Wilhelmina thinks about her own love? hum thats interesting lucky guy.

So Hecate finally gets Yuji and removes the Reiji Maigo? that kind of puts a damper on Yuji like staying alive doesnt it?

Agreed. But I'm here for Satou and Margery, so, whatevah <3

[ashlay]

This does not sound good not good at all wait a min so Wilhelmina thinks about her own love? hum thats interesting lucky guy.

So Hecate finally gets Yuji and removes the Reiji Maigo? that kind of puts a damper on Yuji like staying alive doesnt it?
Merihim's not that lucky...you know, being dead and all. >_>

[HashiriyaR32]

21 weeks, all for this moment!

right off the bat, Sabrac's alive! Guess killing the battle body meant nothing, he'll just keep regenerating as long as he still has the main.

Kantaro comes back and seems to break some big news to Yuji on the bridge (is it like every revelation in Yuji's life takes place there? 0_o)

Looks like Shana and Yoshida have a "date" together, and decide to have a little contest over who's going to get Yuji (sending him letters to spend christmas together)

Wilhelmina thinks a little about her own love (*sniff* Merihim...)

And right when everyone is waiting...


darn, looks like Hecate showed up and removed the Reiji Maigo from Yuji instead. bummer.
Alright, looking like an anime original ending everyone. Time to go home. :\

I would like to say the following to points 1 and 5

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/9216/snapshot20080228023222gu6.jpg

[CapoExecutor]

I'll only complement Yuji in forcing the Balle Masque's hand after their "employees" failed to do so.

Did they really underestimate his capabilities when they sent Zarovee, Bifrons, and Sabrac into Misaki City?

[Arnaiyus]

Hmmm it may be an anime original ending, but it's still possible that the last episode will leave an opening for a next season.

Whatever happens though, I really enjoyed this season and even an anime original ending wouldn't disappoint me.

[Sinestra]

Well looks like we are going to be seeing a lot of face palming but i still dont think its going to be bad end i mean bad like well you know but still bad like only J.C. could do. God my head hurts already and i havent even watched the episode yet.:help:

I was really hoping to have everything wrapped up in season 2 but like others im getting the sneeky suspicion we are going to see another season.

[Malintex_Terek]

21 weeks, all for this moment!

right off the bat, Sabrac's alive! Guess killing the battle body meant nothing, he'll just keep regenerating as long as he still has the main.

Kantaro comes back and seems to break some big news to Yuji on the bridge (is it like every revelation in Yuji's life takes place there? 0_o)

Looks like Shana and Yoshida have a "date" together, and decide to have a little contest over who's going to get Yuji (sending him letters to spend christmas together)

Wilhelmina thinks a little about her own love (*sniff* Merihim...)

And right when everyone is waiting...


darn, looks like Hecate showed up and removed the Reiji Maigo from Yuji instead. bummer.
Alright, looking like an anime original ending everyone. Time to go home. :\

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/5237/1186692802rt6.jpg

Screw off JC Staff, and suck your incompetent writing. The whole season was geared toward stupid generic fanservice and this just clenches it. An anime original ending would have been fine, but did they have to take a dump on the script to top things off?

I'm dropping this show, no more JC Staff anime for me. They've turned into a Studio DEEN. And people wonder why nobody buys anime anymore. :rolleyes:

[Samanosuke]

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/8090/1184040522276lb8.jpg
J.C Staff , you betrayed me !
you betrayed the trust that i placed in you ! :(
oh well , I really wanted my cliffhanger ending =/ .
So wait what ? they removed Yuuji's Reiji maigo ? so he's back to being a torch and can die now ? lol . I guess there's going to be a big fight to recuperate it .

[Arnaiyus]

Come see little teasers for yourself here (http://randomc.animeblogger.net/2008/03/13/shakugan-no-shana-ii-22/) people =D

EDIT: Weee, the episode is up on NicoVideo (you need to register) here (http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm2638832)

[Dark Wing]

THEY DID IT AGAIN!!!!

This is total B.S! :frustrated:

Snake of the Festival was imprisoned long before the Coffin Weaver's activities during the Middle Ages. Snake was defeated by an alliance of all the strongest Guze Kings plus Alastor around the time of ancient Babylon. They put him away because he was too tough to kill, and his crime was trying to change how existence works in both worlds.

Snake admires humans and he's the God of Creation, so he hates how Tomogara sneak into the real world and kill humans to achieve their goals, and likewise hates how the Guze Kings use Flame Haze as some kind of hobby to kill the Tomogara. It's fucking stupid.

So he wants to change the nature of existence for Tomogara and humans so they won't have that predator-prey relationship. The problem is it's risky and the other Guze Kings don't want that risk.

With Yuuji as his ally, he's virtual invincible right now. Near physically impenetrable body, a floating fotress, three unbelievably powerful Guze Kings as worshippers, hordes of followers, immunity to magic, unlimited offensive power, the ability to hide his presence and detect the presence of even the smallest amount of existence, and a physical Stand as powerful as a very strong Guze King that can replicate itself a million times and acts as his personal bodyguard.


This whole awesomeness just got sacrificed for harem visual novel love triangles.:upset:

[CapoExecutor]

Bel Peol has got quite a bustline. Did Dantalion pump more estrogen into her body or something?

Not to be combat-obsessive, but did Yuji get ambushed or was he just wasting time standing there while Hecate extracted the Reiji Maigo out of him? Unless he's hindered from moving, he could've just chanced things and acted in almost the same manner as he did against Zarovee. But then again, the subs aren't out so I don't what his situation is.

[nikolai_131]

So the end of this episode was Anime Original, right????

[Dragon-Emperor]

A strange way to end things for 22. Maybe things will somehow turn around for us in the next 2 episodes to retake the 'proper' course. No use getting upset over predictions in a world where predicting JCs actions is impossible (Don't claim otherwise out of anger. Please)

[metronome]

THEY DID IT AGAIN!!!!

This is total B.S! :frustrated:

Snake of the Festival was imprisoned long before the Coffin Weaver's activities during the Middle Ages. Snake was defeated by an alliance of all the strongest Guze Kings plus Alastor around the time of ancient Babylon. They put him away because he was too tough to kill, and his crime was trying to change how existence works in both worlds.

Snake admires humans and he's the God of Creation, so he hates how Tomogara sneak into the real world and kill humans to achieve their goals, and likewise hates how the Guze Kings use Flame Haze as some kind of hobby to kill the Tomogara. It's fucking stupid.

So he wants to change the nature of existence for Tomogara and humans so they won't have that predator-prey relationship. The problem is it's risky and the other Guze Kings don't want that risk.

With Yuuji as his ally, he's virtual invincible right now. Near physically impenetrable body, a floating fotress, three unbelievably powerful Guze Kings as worshippers, hordes of followers, immunity to magic, unlimited offensive power, the ability to hide his presence and detect the presence of even the smallest amount of existence, and a physical Stand as powerful as a very strong Guze King that can replicate itself a million times and acts as his personal bodyguard.


This whole awesomeness just got sacrificed for harem visual novel love triangles.:upset:

haha.....snake of the festivals seems like a descent guy afterall....

[CapoExecutor]

By the way, any chance that Kazumi's younger brother could get some screentime?

[Sinestra]

Hmmm it may be an anime original ending, but it's still possible that the last episode will leave an opening for a next season.

From what you say (though I haven't seen the ep yet, I may change my mind by then), I believe Hecate steals the Reiji Maigo to implement it in the Silver. They may just show that SnH, which is inside the RM, wouldn't agree to that and go back to Yuji on his own, either merging in the last episode or in another season.Whatever happens though, I really enjoyed this season and even an anime original ending wouldn't disappoint me.

Im hoping this is the case because how its looking i am not going to like the ending but anything can happen within the next 2 episodes and with it being an original anime ending they can still turn it into something decent.

[Kristen]

21 weeks, all for this moment!

right off the bat, Sabrac's alive! Guess killing the battle body meant nothing, he'll just keep regenerating as long as he still has the main.

Kantaro comes back and seems to break some big news to Yuji on the bridge (is it like every revelation in Yuji's life takes place there? 0_o)

Looks like Shana and Yoshida have a "date" together, and decide to have a little contest over who's going to get Yuji (sending him letters to spend christmas together)

Wilhelmina thinks a little about her own love (*sniff* Merihim...)

And right when everyone is waiting...


darn, looks like Hecate showed up and removed the Reiji Maigo from Yuji instead. bummer.
Alright, looking like an anime original ending everyone. Time to go home. :\

Step 1 complete in having an anime original ending complete. Let the Yoshida love begin!

I'm glad that it doesn't look like they're going to leave the ending at a cliffhanger. Considering it'd be something like a year or two long wait for S3, and I really am tiring of Shana, it would be good if they just conclude it.

[teachopvutru]

Step 1 complete in having an anime original ending complete. Let the Yoshida love begin!

I'm glad that it doesn't look like they're going to leave the ending at a cliffhanger. Considering it'd be something like a year or two long wait for S3, and I really am tiring of Shana, it would be good if they just conclude it.

If they happen to leave a cliffhanger, but conclude the relationship and drops out Yoshida from it, would you drop the series? :p

[Kristen]

If they happen to leave a cliffhanger, but conclude the relationship and drops out Yoshida from it, would you drop the series? :p

Well, first I'd cry. Then I'd probably cry some more. Then I'd write another fanfic about Yoshida winning. Then I'd wait, and continue to watch the next season, cursing JC Staff for being so cruel.

[HayashiMugen]

Come see little teasers for yourself here (http://randomc.animeblogger.net/2008/03/13/shakugan-no-shana-ii-22/) people =D

EDIT: Weee, the episode is up on NicoVideo (you need to register) here (http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm2638832)

They removed the video.

[teachopvutru]

Well, first I'd cry. Then I'd probably cry some more. Then I'd write another fanfic about Yoshida winning. Then I'd wait, and continue to watch the next season, cursing JC Staff for being so cruel.

Assuming that Ike manages to confess to Yoshida by the end of the season, and the previous conditions still hold true, would you gear toward to Yoshida x Ike instead? :heh:

Personally, I don't mind Season 3; but I just hope it's better than this season. This season isn't bad, but it hasn't been done as well as I had wanted and expected.

I'm gonna still be optimistic and hope for a godly studio picking Shana up (maybe KyoAni), or a J.C.Staff studio reform, when it turns to becoming a godly studio. :p

In any case, the title for the last episode (on anidb) is "Things To Protect." To me, it sounds like there are a lot of openings there. Personally, I see a Season 3 coming... Of course, title doesn't mean a lot, but I'll continue to keep my hope up, assuming a J.C.Staff reform will come. (their other anime, Hayate no Gotoku, is pretty good, though. :( )

[Mukki]

Of course, there is still the last character that has yet to be revealed for the Balle Masque on the SnS page. Maybe...?

[Toreno]

Well, first I'd cry. Then I'd probably cry some more. Then I'd write another fanfic about Yoshida winning. Then I'd wait, and continue to watch the next season, cursing JC Staff for being so cruel.

If they dropped out Shana from it, that would be cruel. :p

[Kristen]

Assuming that Ike manages to confess to Yoshida by the end of the season, and the previous conditions still hold true, would you gear toward to Yoshida x Ike instead? :heh:

Personally, I don't mind Season 3; but I just hope it's better than this season. This season isn't bad, but it hasn't been done as well as I had wanted and expected.

I'm gonna still be optimistic and hope for a godly studio picking Shana up (maybe KyoAni), or a J.C.Staff studio reform, when it turns to becoming a godly studio. :p

In any case, the title for the last episode (on anidb) is "Things To Protect." To me, it sounds like there are a lot of openings there. Personally, I see a Season 3 coming... Of course, title doesn't mean a lot, but I'll continue to keep my hope up, assuming a J.C.Staff reform will come. (their other anime, Hayate no Gotoku, is pretty good, though. :( )

Maybe "Kazumi, you are my precious thing. Without Shana here, there is nobody but me. And I will protect you for eternity!"

[Machina]

I'd watch an endless number of Shana seasons. As long as it had Margery and Marco.

[gabbytay]

F8CK THIS SHIT , Mail bomb JC! :)
This are the reasons why almost all their show s*ck!

[piku]

nice drawing style. generally good script, but not so satisfactory on the part ofshana & wilhelmina's quarrel
Ike vs kazumi
shana & kazumi discuss on the topic of how to make a childthese 3 parts should be more focus on character's emotion rather than just tell the viewers that these facts are essential for the story development.

otherwise this episode is above average. .also satisfactory for the original ending... seems interesting, it would be much more better than just squeeze the laterest novel content into 2 episode.
I do think the big clock that show up 4 times in this episode must be the most important item for the original ending - return all the people to the daily life, e. g. yuji may make a new/repair reiji maigo using parts from this clock...
till this episode, i don't think yuji will 'turn black' and make SnS2 into a non-daily life ending... surely there will be a SnS3, in my opinion.

little opinion on too many untagged novel spoiler in this thread... it may be terrible to those who has never read the original before and looking forward for the story's progress.

[aroduc]

You guys are adorable.

[teachopvutru]

F8CK THIS SHIT , Mail bomb JC! :)
This are the reasons why almost all their show s*ck!

Whoa, whoa... I haven't watched this episode yet but was it really that bad? I think J.C.Staff have done an alright job, just not good or great...

Also, not all of their shows are bad. I personally enjoy Shana, Zero no Tsukaima I, and Hayate no Gotoku...

Of course, I'd be pretty mad if J.C.Staff were to leave Yuji dead and end this season like that... but the chance of them doing that is pretty slim (or hopefully so).

[DX HBK]

Bel Peol has got quite a bustline. Did Dantalion pump more estrogen into her body or something?

Not to be combat-obsessive, but did Yuji get ambushed or was he just wasting time standing there while Hecate extracted the Reiji Maigo out of him? Unless he's hindered from moving, he could've just chanced things and acted in almost the same manner as he did against Zarovee. But then again, the subs aren't out so I don't what his situation is.

Who knows but then again, Yuji did have sharp senses. Pity the rule "action first, questions later" doesn't apply to him.


By the way, any chance that Kazumi's younger brother could get some screentime?

No, because Ken Yoshida isn't important at the moment and no one cares about him.

[Arnaiyus]

They removed the video.

Fixd (http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm2639381) =D. You can't stop fans that easily lol.

[Crisano]

Ouch, a lot of people here are joining the JC hate wagon. I'm personally not going to make any judgments until the end of the series; even if the show doesn't follow the novel, I won't let that effect my final judgement and my enjoyment of the show.

[Kyuusaisha]

To top what happens in the novels, JC must have gotten an abnormaly huge boost in writing skills what with how the Konoe arc played out, which means the chance of an ending that doesn't suck is very very low.

[Tokkan]

I'm of the opinion that this is just a bit of an overreaction from most of the people... Seriously. I'm not at all bothered by this turn of events, though it does screw things up for me. At least this is nowhere near as terrible as say Nanoha StrikerS or ZnT2.

[Arnaiyus]

Hold your guns people. Many of you are forgetting this (http://www.shakugan.com/chara/index.html). One missing character in Bal Masqué's side...if it isn't the Silver (which couldn't be anyways, they showed him like 5 times and I don't see why he would be placed there anyways), the placement STRONGLY suggests that it will be SnH...let's see how it plays out before screaming bloody murder. Don't forget that the storyline isn't complete yet on the novel side, J.C has to find a way to finish this season and leaving an opening for a third one to finish things properly.

[Tokkan]

Hold your guns people. Many of you are forgetting this (http://www.shakugan.com/chara/index.html). One missing character in Bal Masqué's side...if it isn't the Silver (which couldn't be anyways, they showed him like 5 times and I don't see why he would be placed there anyways), the placement STRONGLY suggests that it will be SnH...let's see how it plays out before screaming bloody murder. Don't forget that the storyline isn't complete yet on the novel side, J.C has to find a way to finish this season and leaving an opening for a third one to finish things properly.

GOGO Arnaiyus. He's thinking straight here. He's got a good point.

[ashlay]

I'm of the opinion that this is just a bit of an overreaction from most of the people... Seriously. I'm not at all bothered by this turn of events, though it does screw things up for me. At least this is nowhere near as terrible as say Nanoha StrikerS or ZnT2.
Well, I can understand how people could be annoyed.

An anime original ending is just going to cause the same issues as this time around. (filler plotlines at the beginning of season, confusion in terms of character motivations, ruins certain elements of the pacing) And since Bal Masque probably won't be eliminated after this, it's just going to feel like a cliffhanger again. (certainly not the degree of some ways they could have done it, but let's face it, as long as they can make money, there will be a season 3, and thus they're going to need villains.)


The episode itself isn't that bad, it has some nice relationship moments (though I feel like they mishandled the Shana and Wilhelmina fight completely. >_< ...in a way this material really deserved 2 episodes. but that is a trivial matter.), it's just a lot of the things it represents are rather questionable.

[Sterling01]

J.C Staff....................

Don't ever change :heh::heh:
Whatever, I really don't care.
I really didn't think I would be this calm about it.

Now if you would excuse me.
I have phallic shaped worms to attend to.
*points to aroduc's avatar*

[gabbytay]

I just finished watching the episode.
Ill stay calm until the end of the series and i hope they F8cking fix the ending!

Ill just hope this wont end up like Znt II

[HayashiMugen]

Hahah.
-Yuji is a big brother now.
-Shana doesnt know where babies come from.

[Dragon-Emperor]

Just watched it. I think they have time to turn things around for the better =) Some of the predictions in this thread seem rather plausible imo.
With everything that's happening and all that there is left to do... there is little chance of there not being a cliffhanger. imo anyways.

[HayashiMugen]

I just finished the episode. It was funny at some parts, and I have no idea why you people are flipping out on the JC staff right now. We don't even know what is gonna happen in the next two episodes. When the next two episode airs, and it is not a result you guys like, then you flip out.

[Sterling01]

I just finished the episode. It was funny at some parts, and I have no idea why you people are flipping out on the JC staff right now. We don't even know what is gonna happen in the next two episodes. When the next two episode airs, and it is not a result you guys like, then you flip out.
They're flipping out because they changed canon...... again.

[minhtam1638]

Okay, guys, look. I haven't watched Episode 22 (nor have I watched 21), but you guys are overreacting. Think logically - do you think it's smart for Shana II to end in a cliffhanger if there is a possibility that there might not be enough cash for Shana III? Look at Rozen Maiden - it hasn't ended, yet the story is stalled, possibly because not only of lack of content but also the lack of resources to continue the story.

You know, I've been covering SaiMoe history since October, and from the looks of it, I see the Shana series taking the same road as the Rozen Maiden series. Discarding votes and all, you would probably think that Shana and the "desu" doll are almost exactly alike, except that Suiseiseki is just that - a doll - and will therefore remain a tsuntsun for the rest of her life. In terms of storyline, you would probably say that they (stories, not the girls) are in the exact same situation, except the novel series has a possibility of continuing.

What if for some awkward reason, the novels just stopped continuing? What if (God forbid) Takahashi, the novel writer, all of a sudden breaks his wrist, goes into a coma, or just flat out passes away? What good will it do to the anime series itself if Season II ends with a cliffhanger and Season III no longer exists?

Whatever happens, all I can say is that they have to end it NOW. Go with the anime-original ending. Let everything play out as it plays out. Make Kazumi lose her power of existence to end the storyline. If season III comes, just change the dates so that it would be New Year's instead of Christmas. I don't care. J.C. Staff needs to prove that they are stable, and clearly, they haven't been stable until Shana came along. Now do this right: end it now. If the novels continue, make Season III in the year 2010, and change a few details to ensure continuity.

Whatever rebuttals you have to say, I'm all ears. Just remember that J.C is not Kyoto.

[Malintex_Terek]

I think the pulling of the episode from NicoVideo says something about how JC Staff seems to view its consumers. :heh: Are they really this embarrassed about churning out such trash? If they are, they shouldn't have done it at all! I won't forgive them unless everyone on-staff including the director do a public orz naked in front of a crowd of angry otaku who throw papayas at the stage. That'll teach 'em for being gits! The original author is exempt of course. :)

Seriously though...Gainax was cool with us pirating GL fansubs before it was licensed and watched the comments on NicoVideo for the GL episodes during Fall. Why's everyone not so cool nowadays...I mean I even got my letter back from ADV and it wasn't news I was happy with. :mad:

Anime is serious business. :rolleyes:

[The Real Nemo]

They're flipping out because they changed canon...... again.
Well the anime's already established itself as a separate canon from the novels with the anime original ending in the first series and the Konoe storyline, anyone who thought they were just going to retcon that stuff away and forget about it was kidding themselves IMO. :heh:

[HayashiMugen]

They're flipping out because they changed canon...... again.

Since when did anime have to follow the EXACT novels and mangas? :heh:

[Steel Guardian]

Ha, well, not to add fuel to the fire or anything, but I heard this covered a good part of Vol. 14?

[Flibble]

Alot can happen in 2 episodes, a frigging lot could happen in 2 episodes, and dear me, there's a lot of band-wagon jumping going on here...

The whole burn JC Staff stuff people are going on about seems a tad extreme, i mean they haven't gone and given us another Znt2 here, i mean Znt wasn't what you'd call high-art to begin with so having any hope was probably my own fault but really people, pass judgement over the ending once you've actually seen it.

I've seen many places with people saying they're dropping this anime 22 episodes into a 24 episode series based on the possibility there will be an ending they might not like... lol

[minhtam1638]

Since when did anime have to follow the EXACT novels and mangas? :heh:

THANK YOU! That's the point I've been trying to make.

If you think about it, there's always multiple ways to interpret the story. Reason why? MONEY. Don't like the anime take, go buy the novels. It's a marketing thing.

[gabbytay]

THANK YOU! That's the point I've been trying to make.

If you think about it, there's always multiple ways to interpret the story. Reason why? MONEY. Don't like the anime take, go buy the novels. It's a marketing thing.

Its the same a Znt when the word got out that its sucks many went for the novel.

[Tokkan]

Since when did anime have to follow the EXACT novels and mangas? :heh:

Haha. True. In fact, taking a serious 100% exact duplicate of the story from the original product isn't always a good thing. It can at times make adaptations boring for followers of the story in its original format. On the other hand, I hate how much stuff they cut out of the Harry Potter movies, so I shouldn't exactly complain.

Edit: Oh god, on Nicovideo a good amount of the comments are people asking for a 3rd season. Hahaha. That really contrasts what's going on here, people being pissed off with how the series has gone. Then again, Shana broke the Top 10 in 2 recent character polls. She must be particularly popular in Japan.

[Malintex_Terek]

If you think about it, there's always multiple ways to interpret the story. Reason why? MONEY. Don't like the anime take, go buy the novels. It's a marketing thing.

I'm sorry to say this, but you're being blinded to reason by your fanboyism for this god-awful anime. Don't you think that if people actually had the novels they'd buy them instead? We certainly know about Japan's tendency to cater to ronery otaku since they're the ones who purchase shows like this, but since the Japanese like to complain about fansubbers "stealing their profits" they might as well orient the show to something we'd like as well. Anyone with their head on straight could find a fanservice show; chances are, it'll be the first topic in our Fansubbed Anime subforum. Why should shows with such unique premises like Shana get swamped by fanservice as well?

This is totally not unlike Dead or Alive: Beach Volleyball. An insult to anyone with anything above "lowbrow" taste created just so some idiot otaku can have intoxicate themselves with sexual fantasies.

Anime-original is not necessarily a bad thing. In this case, though, it is - the whole Fumina arc was filler, boring generic and disastrous filler that one could easily find in any school life anime. I can see how that could be appealing to people who are new to anime, but for the second season of Shana I think that's pushing things a bit too far.

[DX HBK]

The omens of the future aren't always good things.
Yet the Sakai household has new life that came from a midnight fling.
The cards of every player's deck each have become like a great stack.
But at least Bel Peol gets to show off her rather prominent rack.
The season sure comes in with a lot of Christmas cheer.
But in Misaki City, you would also have a lot of unresolved fear.
Yuji has just reached the dividing paths in true thinking mode.
But his decision is disrupted by Hecate, the goddess of the crossroads.

[Kristen]

Since when did anime have to follow the EXACT novels and mangas? :heh:

It's very true. To be honest, I wish that this season followed the novels much less than they tried to. Due to that, at least from what I heard from people reacting to my complaints earlier in the season, the reason why the first 1/2 of season was so bad was because they were trying to become more faithful to the novels.

And that is why Shana II bored me for a good 12 straight weeks. Honestly, not every idea that an author comes up with is good enough to be animated. You make cuts so as to keep the interest of your viewers, not to please the fans of an adaptation by remaining completely faithful.

[Tokkan]

Anime-original is not necessarily a bad thing. In this case, though, it is - the whole Fumina arc was filler, boring generic and disastrous filler that one could easily find in any school life anime. I can see how that could be appealing to people who are new to anime, but for the second season of Shana I think that's pushing things a bit too far.

Oh sure, let's continue to use those 4 episodes that everyone hates as an example of the apparent suckage of this show. :eyespin:

Case in point, this episode is NOT THAT BAD, and you're just pissed about them using anime original content and exxagerating your opinion by comparing it to the Konoe arc.

Also, anyone who thinks J.C. Staff can't make anything good these days... *cough*Shigofumi*cough*... Unless of course you hate episodic series, in which case forget that I mentioned Shigofumi.

[ashlay]

It's very true. To be honest, I wish that this season followed the novels much less than they tried to. Due to that, at least from what I heard from people reacting to my complaints earlier in the season, the reason why the first 1/2 of season was so bad was because they were trying to become more faithful to the novels.

And that is why Shana II bored me for a good 12 straight weeks. Honestly, not every idea that an author comes up with is good enough to be animated. You make cuts so as to keep the interest of your viewers, not to please the fans of an adaptation by remaining completely faithful.
this latest cut idea from the novels was good enough though. :heh:

well, in the end this is Yasuko Kobayashi's and Takashi Watanabe's story, any praise or blame should be placed at their feet, not Takahashi's.

[Tokkan]

this latest cut idea from the novels was good enough. :heh:

well, in the end this is Yasuko Kobayashi's story, any praise or blame should be placed at his feet, not Takahashi's.

Kobayashi Yasuko is a she. She was also the main writer for the Claymore anime.

[Gotank]

Nooooo, don't bring up Rozen Maiden again, I'll go back to my depression again regarding the lack of a third season =((

Anyways, I find it kind of funny that the flames start happening after 2 of the best episodes of the season, when it should have occured while they were still doing harem stuff.

[DX HBK]

Everything needs a bit of something called diversity.
Even the plots and scripts derived from the original story.
What's the point of having something that follows the original to the letter?
It obviously in the long run won't show or present anything better.
Don't put the blame on the production team for their antics.
It's all about the finances that leeches on them like bloodthirsty ticks.
If one doesn't like what they see, that person doesn't always speak for everyone.
Either ignore it or write reviews to the producers about errors that weigh more than a ton.

[ashlay]

Kobayashi Yasuko is a she. She was also the main writer for the Claymore anime.
yeah I was thinking that. >_> post has been fixed.

kinda weird really, Claymore seemed like a pretty faithful adaptation. (though an anime original ending also took place in that) Well, that's secondary to the point: She wrote the anime's story, like in all series the director no doubt had input.

[serenade_beta]

Haha, after a whole week of people hoping for novel events to happen, before the episode aired, I had a feeling the anime would be different. :heh:

Actually, I'm perfectly fine with the change. Very welcome. :D

Great episode! With heartwarming moments, exciting moments, funny moments~
The reactions to Shana's demand about babies was just hilarious, and Yuuji's reaction to having a brother/sister was also very funny. :heh:

Really loved the discussion between Yuuji and his dad (and the BGM too).
So Yuuji had a twin who died... And now he's going to have younger sibling. Good for him!
For a name, how about Sanji (三時)? :heh:
Three for number, and Time as a reference to Midnight Lost Child.

Also, very good job, Ike! Not surprisingly got turned down, but he handled the whole thing very well.
Poor guy... :(

And the damn Hecate just has to appear when the final moment has come for him to choose... :mad:
And she took out the Midnight Lost Child! :twitch:

Preview: Quickening of Danger; I assume it's the fight for the Midnight Lost Child...
After the battle, I wonder what will happen...
The novel event...
Yuuji chooses one of the girls
Season ends without a choice...

[ashlay]

Haha, after a whole week of people hoping for novel events to happen, before the episode aired, I had a feeling the anime would be different. :heh:

Actually, I'm perfectly fine with the change. Very welcome. :D

Great episode! With heartwarming moments, exciting moments, funny moments~
The reactions to Shana's demand about babies was just hilarious, and Yuuji's reaction to having a brother/sister was also very funny. :heh:

Really loved the discussion between Yuuji and his dad (and the BGM too).
So Yuuji had a twin who died... And now he's going to have younger sibling. Good for him!
For a name, how about Sanji (三時)? :heh:
Three for number, and Time as a reference to Midnight Lost Child.

Also, very good job, Ike! Not surprisingly got turned down, but he handled the whole thing very well.
Poor guy... :(

And the damn Hecate just has to appear when the final moment has come for him to choose... :mad:
And she took out the Midnight Lost Child! :twitch:

Preview: Quickening of Danger; I assume it's the fight for the Midnight Lost Child...
After the battle, I wonder what will happen...
The novel event...
Yuuji chooses one of the girls
Season ends without a choice...
Option c, gotta be option c. This is Shakugan no Shana! We can't just have Yuji pick one of the girls. (unless he chooses Kazumi...that'd be pretty unexpected. 0_o) This entire story is about Yuji and Shana's relationship having one setback after another. :3

[minhtam1638]

I'm sorry to say this, but you're being blinded to reason by your fanboyism for this god-awful anime. Don't you think that if people actually had the novels they'd buy them instead? We certainly know about Japan's tendency to cater to ronery otaku since they're the ones who purchase shows like this, but since the Japanese like to complain about fansubbers "stealing their profits" they might as well orient the show to something we'd like as well. Anyone with their head on straight could find a fanservice show; chances are, it'll be the first topic in our Fansubbed Anime subforum. Why should shows with such unique premises like Shana get swamped by fanservice as well?

This is totally not unlike Dead or Alive: Beach Volleyball. An insult to anyone with anything above "lowbrow" taste created just so some idiot otaku can have intoxicate themselves with sexual fantasies.

Anime-original is not necessarily a bad thing. In this case, though, it is - the whole Fumina arc was filler, boring generic and disastrous filler that one could easily find in any school life anime. I can see how that could be appealing to people who are new to anime, but for the second season of Shana I think that's pushing things a bit too far.

Wow, you are actually making me think about what you're saying.

Look, I'm not here to recklessly argue. Perhaps maybe I am being blinded by Shana's extreme cuteness that makes me want to cuddle her like a 6-year old. That doesn't mean my arguments are completely rationalized.

I would agree on this: if the novels were available to the non-Japanese public, then yes, due to personal preferences concerning Season II, people will go out to buy the novels. It's a marketing strategy that tends to serve both parties - J.C. Staff gets the viewing ratings, and whoever produces the novels to the general public will also get their sales boosted by those who have a distaste of the anime route that J.C. is taking. Although this hurts J.C. just a tad bit, if the demand for novels increases, then new novels will be produced, and the anime will also benefit.

Ornery, which you misspelled, is stubbornness, and yes, novel readers can be quite stubborn about how a production studio covers an animation adaption. However, that's not to say that anime should follow novel material word for word. Human instincts do get bored of hearing the same story over and over again. Why not make something different.

About your fansubbing comment, Japanese companies do complain about fansubbers. But your comment about the Japanese orienting the show so that those who download fansubbed content could enjoy it as well makes total nonsense. It's like you're saying "The Japanese should just give up and alter the content so that those who download fansubbed content could enjoy it as well." That line in itself spells "net loss". No production company would be stupid enough to try to produce a quality animation that results in a net loss and ultimately a bankruptcy unless they want to go out with a bang. If I know J.C. Staff, they are hanging by a thread trying to survive as a production studio, and they are having money problems. Human greed for revenue is evident everywhere you look, and J.C. Staff is no different.

And the fanservice thing? It all relates to greed in itself. A lot of people do have sexual desires, and I'm certain that the majority of viewers are adolescents who are also undergoing puberty, therefore having some sort of interest in sexuality. Although it does upset me that Shana is that close to taking the Louise route, I understand why they would do it.

In the episode 21 thread, I mentioned something about J.C. Staff rushing Season II because of money. I am reiterating that statement now. J.C. is no Kyoto. They are barely hanging by a thread. They haven't found much revenue success until Shana came along. In fact, as far as I remember, they showed at least one anime every single quarter just so that they can get necessary revenue. It's clear that they've started burning out since then, hence why the Shana movie was created.

Put yourself in a business setting where you are running low on money and the only success you have had is one particular item for market. Obviously you would want to re-build your business around that particular item in order to continuously gain revenue.

Yes, anime-original is not necessarily a bad thing. Although I agree that the Fumina filler was pretty much generic, the point of that was not to please/irk the stubborn viewers who watch this show expecting the storyline to follow novel material; rather, it was to appeal to new viewers who love action but wouldn't mind taking a necessary break from it. It was to increase quantity, not quality. Is it pushing things too far? Depends on your perspective.

To conclude, I've just written a whole critique rebuttal paper on Shana when I'm supposed to be working on a term paper on human naturalism. Is it because I like Shana a bit too much? Maybe. However, my arguments do have a degree of reason within them. The comment you provided also had some reason, but the message you conveyed was too strong. I expected an argument against it, therefore I came prepared for it. If you look at this world in general, there are multiple ways to think, and therefore, different ideas are valued. If there was only one way to think, we wouldn't have had Shana at all. In fact, the world would be like George Orwell's 1984, where citizens are forced to think one way. It is our differences in thinking that make the world a beautiful place to live, despite the huge degree of human corruption. Next time you think of me as just another Shana fanboy, control your emotions and think about what the other side has to say about it calmly and argue your case in a dignified manner.

[HayashiMugen]

This is my prediction.

All the Flame Haze of Misaki city will aid in retrieving Reji Maigo.Since Hecate is all by her self, most likely there will be back up comming to help her. It will be a ongoing battle till Sairei no Hebi tells Hecate to put Reji Maigo back in Yuji. Thus asking Yuji will he be part of him. When he accepts (I don't know why he would). He would tell Shana that he chooses her instead of Yoshida.

[Sterling01]

Just think of this as incentive to learn Japanese. As in if you want to know what should of happened get off yer asses and try to read the novels.

As I said before I really don't care about the change made. This being said for the episode itself it was very good and now I'm very interested in how Shana II is going to end unlike before when I knew what was going to happen.

So let us end this ranting about J.C. Staff. It's not like they care about your opinion at all

[HayashiMugen]

So let us end this ranting about J.C. Staff. It's not like they care about your opinion at all

I was trying to achieve this in my second post. Took quite awhile to stop complaining. I will say this again. You guys do NOT know what will happen on the 2 remaining episodes. So watch the 2 remaining episodes and then complain.

[evarcrazy89]

well, i hope they make an OVA like in tsubasa reservoir chronicle

[The Real Nemo]

I'm sorry to say this, but you're being blinded to reason by your fanboyism for this god-awful anime. Don't you think that if people actually had the novels they'd buy them instead? We certainly know about Japan's tendency to cater to ronery otaku since they're the ones who purchase shows like this, but since the Japanese like to complain about fansubbers "stealing their profits" they might as well orient the show to something we'd like as well. Anyone with their head on straight could find a fanservice show; chances are, it'll be the first topic in our Fansubbed Anime subforum. Why should shows with such unique premises like Shana get swamped by fanservice as well?

This is totally not unlike Dead or Alive: Beach Volleyball. An insult to anyone with anything above "lowbrow" taste created just so some idiot otaku can have intoxicate themselves with sexual fantasies.

Anime-original is not necessarily a bad thing. In this case, though, it is - the whole Fumina arc was filler, boring generic and disastrous filler that one could easily find in any school life anime. I can see how that could be appealing to people who are new to anime, but for the second season of Shana I think that's pushing things a bit too far.
I have to say I'm not getting where you're coming from on the fanservice thing. I've never considered Shana to be a particularly fanservice heavy show, and certainly not to the point where it interferes with the storyline. And yeah the Konoe arc was a bit boring, but what does that have to do with this latest ep? The turn it took in the end was pretty interesting, at least for me.

[ZODDGUTS]

JC is getting alot of hate because of three reasons first Znt 2 being really bad, then their adapation of Kimikiss which they change alot of things the game which was more of a shonen type of romance while the anime was made into a Josei type of romance anime, causing alot of kimikiss fans (I mean alot since kimikiss game was really popular in japan) to bail out early on the anime pretty much making it a cormecial failure. None of the DVD's have sold well not even making it in the top ten DVD's sales when each volume has been released while other romance series like Sola and ef have and with True Tears being very popular the DVD's are going to sell well for that series as well.

Then there's this series which has been rather iffy this season ranging from good to medicore. I'm hoping they can pull it off with the final episodes to get a good ending but with only two episodes left...

[Malintex_Terek]

Anyways, I find it kind of funny that the flames start happening after 2 of the best episodes of the season, when it should have occured while they were still doing harem stuff.

Why is this funny? We're comparing twenty one episode's worth of stuff to five or six - people are complaining about our complaining because the series isn't finished yet! Don't you think it would have been just a tad "pessimistic" to denounce the series back then? We have the benefit of hindsight now.

[metronome]

actually after rewatching shana ep 22, I just realize that the appearance of hecate seems abrupt and forced, not sure why. I know they try to create surprise, but it is kinda fail, not really expected, but it is like you take a crap but somehow the shit is too hard, it is unexpected but not surprising and feels forced:P haha.

another example is like you order some chinese food, but when you get the food, the food is actually pretty spicy and chilly. unexpected, but not surprising and kinda forced when you know the food that you order is actually braised tofu hot pot with mixed vegetable:D

[The Real Nemo]

Why is this funny? We're comparing twenty one episode's worth of stuff to five or six - people are complaining about our complaining because the series isn't finished yet! Don't you think it would have been just a tad "pessimistic" to denounce the series back then? We have the benefit of hindsight now.
I can see complaining about the first half, but for the most part the second half of the series has been greatly appreciated. I'd also kind of like to know why you think this latest ep clinches the series as a fanservice one.

[ashlay]

actually after rewatching shana ep 22, I just realize that the appearance of hecate seems abrupt and forced, not sure why. I know they try to create surprise, but it is kinda fail, not really expected, but it is like you take a crap but somehow the shit is too hard, it is unexpected but not surprising and feels forced:P haha.

another example is like you order some chinese food, but when you get the food, the food is actually pretty spicy and chilly. unexpected, but not surprising and kinda forced when you know the food that you order is actually braised tofu hot pot with mixed vegetable:D
well, pushing all the other stuff aside, lets just wait to see what Hecate's plan is.

[Dragon-Emperor]

actually after rewatching shana ep 22, I just realize that the appearance of hecate seems abrupt and forced, not sure why. I know they try to create surprise, but it is kinda fail, not really expected, but it is like you take a crap but somehow the shit is too hard, it is unexpected but not surprising and feels forced:P haha.

I agree with you there. However, don't you think that if you were a badguy you'd try to be abrupt too? If I were Hecate I'd of materialized infront of Yuuji while he was on the toilet and Shana was at her appartment a long time ago. Much easier that way than when 3 flame haze are flying around him like wasps :)

Yay for a good antagonist planning for once! :heh:

[Malintex_Terek]

I can see complaining about the first half, but for the most part the second half of the series has been greatly appreciated. I'd also kind of like to know why you think this latest ep clinches the series as a fanservice one.

Alright.

Let me start off by saying generally I hate fanservice. There are shows that are made for it, and I think it belongs there. Shana is not one of these shows. It is a rather serious story about a boy and a girl, it was never intended (in my eyes) to end up as just another harem drama/comedy, not unlike School Days or Ninomiya-kun (to name a few).

Since Shana involves a high school boy and love, it's natural to assume there would be some dramatic tension, but too much of the show's "uniqueness" is getting wasted by focusing on this harem stuff that's not going anywhere. How's Shana unique? Here's a summary of the premise in a single sentence:

One day, a young student named Sakai Yuuji discovers he is not only dead, but is permanently involved in a timless war between malevolent beings called Tomogara and Flame Haze, humans who have allied with Tomogara to hunt them.

How does this premise - a war of humans versus Tomogara - connect to slice of life highschool melodrama?? It only connects vaguely, through Yuuji and Shana and their dynamic; the whole uniqueness of the Shana series is being wasted by not being focused on.

What I'm saying is, for those harem episodes, if you took those episodes out of context and showed them to someone who had no idea about what the series was about, he/she wouldn't think of it as an action show. That person would think of it as a generic harem show with good art and average animation.

What I'm trying to get at is this huge involving plot is getting wasted on the harem stuff. It's connected to the fanservice in that Hecate, who is a beloved icon in doujin circles for Shana and was one of the most popular characters last season despite her short tenure because she was "moe", is getting screentime.

That's the fanservice - Hecate focus. Fanservice is pandering to people by doing something, either jiggling breasts, cooing or getting naked. It can also mean focus on a particular character (not just an item of said character), and Hecate, who has a rather small role in the novels compared with her anime incarnation. All of this is done at the sacrifice of the overall aesthetic of the story - substituting Sairei no Hebi for Hecate to fanboys will have an incentive to buy the DVDs.

If anyone else with any motive whatsoever had stolen the Reiji Maigo - Sabrac, Margery, Sydonay, Bel Peol, Fecor, ANYONE - I wouldn't complain. But using Hecate, especially considering the harem role she played, just strikes me as blatant pandering, and it was done in the wrong place.

I could easily have imagined the SnH done in the last three episodes. The spread would be like this (WARNING: novel spoilers!)



Shana 22 - Ike vanishes, Shana and Yoshida write their letters, Yuuji broods on stuff, speaks to SnH, disappears from the world. Sydonay appears and asks SnH what he should be called - cut to blank.

Shana 23 - Shana and Yoshida realize he's gone, everyone's forgotten him. Transition to scenes of the Ball Masque talking with one another, back to Shana and folk. More lamenting, back to SnH Sakai Yuuji - he's reflecting on the past and decides to fetch Shana. Cue the first part of volume sixteen - Yuuji talks with Shana after she detects him, the fight begins, Yuuji introduces himself as Sairei no Hebi Sakai Yuuji.

Shana 24 - Epic battles. We learn of the Silver, Margery falls, Shana is defeated and SnH Sakai Yuuji rejects Yoshida and takes back his Haridan. Cliffhanger ending with the summit meeting of the Flame Haze. Cue season III.


Putting it like that, and considering how short volume fourteen is, it was easily possible to merge the stories (no pub intended). I'm no screen writer but something like this should have been obvious. SnH was just cleared for more Hecate moments, which basically screws over our twenty one weeks of waiting.

...

On the second half, meh, I'm ambivalent.

1. Margery's flashback was awesome. Best part of season II easy, only part that felt like season I.
2. Pheles incident was really weird, we were given barely any info on Pheles and the battle was disoriented, poorly explained and really rushed.
3. Sabrac incident started off well, but it still felt rushed and looked funky in twenty one, THOUGH I think JC Staff made up for it by keeping ol Sab alive. That's great, I like him. He shouldn't go down that easily.

[minhtam1638]

Um, okay... personally, I haven't noticed the fanservice aspect of it, partly because I wasn't actually looking hard for it. Shana isn't like ZnT II where they have a breast joke twice per episode. It doesn't really make you pay attention to all of the fanservice. Okay, there was that Nakamura girl comparing Shana and Kazumi's breast sizes, but that was just a five second moment, like the time Yuji fell out of the closet and saw Shana topless. This anime doesn't really pay attention to that, at least through my observations.

[Tokkan]

Okay... so this is all because of Hecate? And you haven't considered they may have another reason besides fanservice?

And what's with the Ike disappears crap in your theorising? I thought that was confirmed wrong.

[Mukki]

I just want to reply to Malintex about Ike:
Ike does not vanish, he is not a torch. He is referred to as such as a joke on Japanese wikis due to how much he is ignored. The resident novel readers should be able to verify this as well.

[The Real Nemo]

Putting it like that, and considering how short volume fourteen is, it was easily possible to merge the stories (no pub intended). I'm no screen writer but something like this should have been obvious. SnH was just cleared for more Hecate moments, which basically screws over our twenty one weeks of waiting.
So you're saying the only reason the ending was changed was to give Hecate more screentime because she serves as a form of fanservice? Um, I really think you're reading too much into that. :heh: While I'm sure it's true that her popularity leads to them wanting to use her more, I don't think there's any reason to assume that they dropped the novel storyline just for the sake of her character.

As for why she was the one to take the Reiji Maigo, well she is the most obvious choice since she was the one who put the seal on it back in ep 15 and has the most prior established connection Yuji. It's true that Hecate has been given a bigger role in the anime than the novels, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. They've given a greater depth to her character than simply being SnH's priestess.

[Malintex_Terek]

Um, okay... personally, I haven't noticed the fanservice aspect of it, partly because I wasn't actually looking hard for it. Shana isn't like ZnT II where they have a breast joke twice per episode. It doesn't really make you pay attention to all of the fanservice. Okay, there was that Nakamura girl comparing Shana and Kazumi's breast sizes, but that was just a five second moment, like the time Yuji fell out of the closet and saw Shana topless. This anime doesn't really pay attention to that, at least through my observations.

One of the things I liked about Shana I was the comparatively little fanservice considering what most shounen anime get nowadays. I agree it wasn't as noticeable, at least in season I, but that didn't prevent us from having stuff like that water park episode.

It's considerably worse in Shana II, the complete reverse of the first season. Rather than 8 episodes eight 1 slice-of-life fanservice-y one, we have 6 fanservice episodes and 2 of hard action.

Okay... so this is all because of Hecate? And you haven't considered they may have another reason besides fanservice?


I'm still traumatized by the director of Fate/stay night Yuji Yamaguchi telling 2channel he had a boner for Saber and was going to devote the whole anime toward her. As a result of this, yes, I'm pretty inclined into thinking the director is going to work the plot around a certain character he wants to emphasize (Hecate) irrespective of everything else. Yamaguchi pissed away FSN's potential as an epic anime by only using Fate's route because he wanted Saber, and I feel the Shana director feels the same for Hecate.

Considering how Hecate was worked into the plot for the fanservice angle, I can't think of other reaons. Maybe the director is just arrogant and things his "anime-original" storyline is better than the novels. I strongly disagree, but he's the bloke in charge.


And what's with the Ike disappears crap in your theorising? I thought that was confirmed wrong.

I've been getting conflicted answers on this, so I have no idea. If I'm wrong sorry about that. :upset:

So you're saying the only reason the ending was changed was to give Hecate more screentime because she serves as a form of fanservice? Um, I really think you're reading too much into that. :heh: While I'm sure it's true that her popularity leads to them wanting to use her more, I don't think there's any reason to assume that they dropped the novel storyline just for the sake of her character.


I should hire you as a professional summarizer. :heh: I (surely) couldn't have said it better myself.


As for why she was the one to take the Reiji Maigo, well she is the most obvious choice since she was the one who put the seal on it back in ep 15 and has the most prior established connection Yuji. It's true that Hecate has been given a bigger role in the anime than the novels, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. They've given a greater depth to her character than simply being SnH's priestess.

Sabrac put a spell on it as well, he'd be just as suitable if not moreso since it was his role to unleash SnH. That said, and I have yet to watch the episode mind you, Hecate taking the Reiji Maigo is just too unbelievable for me, it smells of contrived pandering.

1. Yuuji can sense the presence of PoE. Sabrac could hide his from Yuuji by spreading it around, but Hecate can't. How could he possibly get caught?
2. How can he possibly be alive? Isn't stealing a Noble Phantasm supposed to destroy a Mystes? How did she get past the Keeper?
3. If SnH was really behind this...why? Hecate's stealing from her own lord, what good would that do him?

It annoys me that SnH might get portrayed as a purely evil villain rather than a good-willed vigilante; if he is set to appear soon, it'll be in a situation where he puts pressure on Yuuji for no apparent reason. The whole reasonable edge to SnH gets squandered.

[Deathkillz]

Well, I thought it was a nice ep :) (sorry but I haven't read the novel so can only go by what I see ^^).
Now that was a surprise ending. It certainly goes with all the previous shana eps so far so it remains consistant at least. Finally hecate does something :rolleyes: Well stealing yuji's haxx away, I wonder how the gang would react. I sense another epix battle (yay) which will wrap up everything nicely ~ besides the romance triangle ^^

As for the other zomg...mr haxx king himself is still alive. Indeed, I didn't think that someone of his power can be killed off so easily :rolleyes:
So he lives to kill another day...

As for the rest of the fluff it was fairly fun. Shana's raction to the baby want curiosity made me laugh ~ I don't remember when the last time I did watching this series actually. Alastor is embarrassed too XD

[The Real Nemo]

Sabrac put a spell on it as well, he'd be just as suitable if not moreso since it was his role to unleash SnH. That said, and I have yet to watch the episode mind you, Hecate taking the Reiji Maigo is just too unbelievable for me, it smells of contrived pandering.

1. Yuuji can sense the presence of PoE. Sabrac could hide his from Yuuji by spreading it around, but Hecate can't. How could he possibly get caught?
2. How can he possibly be alive? Isn't stealing a Noble Phantasm supposed to destroy a Mystes? How did she get past the Keeper?
3. If SnH was really behind this...why? Hecate's stealing from her own lord, what good would that do him?

It annoys me that SnH might get portrayed as a purely evil villain rather than a good-willed vigilante; if he is set to appear soon, it'll be in a situation where he puts pressure on Yuuji for no apparent reason. The whole reasonable edge to SnH gets squandered.
I don't know the answers to most of those questions either, and I hope that more will be revealed in this and the upcoming eps. I don't want to judge the storyline before it's even complete. As far as why Hecate would take the Reiji Maigo assuming SnH will still make an appearance though, well isn't Bal Masque still under the assumption that the Silver is going to be his vessel? That's the reason they're keeping it there isn't it?

[Nomake Wan]

I would like to say the following to points 1 and 5

*image of Kyon was here*

Wrong aspect ratio, correct to 640x360, etc etc... :D

Episode 22 was...interesting... I'll just leave it at that. I can't wait to see the final episodes. Wonder if it's gonna wrap up or give a go at a third season. I haven't read the novels so I guess I'm better off? However, in the Ike-crossing-the-street scene, I did notice two things. One, the traffic is totally inconsistent. From one angle, it's a busy street. From the second, it's completely empty. From a third, it has parked cars. And from a fourth, said parked cars are gone. Come on, now. No excuse. I've made a clip of that part without any audio, so there are no spoilers for anything in Episode 22. People who haven't seen it yet, feel free to check out the animators being lazy.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/pn04tx

But in that same scene was a bit of wonderful gold. I'll put it in a spoiler tag even though it's not a spoiler because I don't want someone claiming it's a spoiler and then this post goes bye-bye. :rolleyes:

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/8917/shanas30zja2.jpg
*sings* IT'S THE DEVIL Z!!!

[cnnydz]

well, i am ok with an anime original ending, but i am a bit confused by why hecate extracted the reiji maigo from yuji, hope ep23 will explain that.

[teelotes]

Poor Hayato. No one cares if he's around, and he's even less priority than the surroundings.

Why doesn't anyone wish for a Kazumi x Hayato turnout? Then both of them can exit the scene gracefully.

[minhtam1638]

Poor Hayato. No one cares if he's around, and he's even less priority than the surroundings.

Why doesn't anyone wish for a Kazumi x Hayato turnout? Then both of them can exit the scene gracefully.

Oh I think everyone wants a Kazumi x Hayato pairing. She's annoying, he's barely around. Good combination.

EDIT: Everybody except ChrissyXD

[HashiriyaR32]

Wrong aspect ratio, correct to 640x360, etc etc... :D

Episode 22 was...interesting... I'll just leave it at that. I can't wait to see the final episodes. Wonder if it's gonna wrap up or give a go at a third season. I haven't read the novels so I guess I'm better off? However, in the Ike-crossing-the-street scene, I did notice two things. One, the traffic is totally inconsistent. From one angle, it's a busy street. From the second, it's completely empty. From a third, it has parked cars. And from a fourth, said parked cars are gone. Come on, now. No excuse. I've made a clip of that part without any audio, so there are no spoilers for anything in Episode 22. People who haven't seen it yet, feel free to check out the animators being lazy.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/pn04tx

But in that same scene was a bit of wonderful gold. I'll put it in a spoiler tag even though it's not a spoiler because I don't want someone claiming it's a spoiler and then this post goes bye-bye. :rolleyes:

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/8917/shanas30zja2.jpg
*sings* IT'S THE DEVIL Z!!!


I was seriously going to laugh if the Z passed by and Ike saw Fumina in the passenger seat. If you don't get what I mean, you'll know soon enough.

[Tokkan]

well, i am ok with an anime original ending, but i am a bit confused by why hecate extracted the reiji maigo from yuji, hope ep23 will explain that.

I already explained this on the comments of aroduc's blog. Hecate doesn't want Yuji to be... you know what I mean. My guess is that the Konoe in head has caused her to either some sort of hatred or love for him, because he's prominent in the memories of Konoe. Of course, that sounds incredibly stupid.

[Deathscyther]

Good episode ^^

I enjoyed Shana's reaction to the baby stuff...and Yuji's conversation with his father was done very well as well. And I enjoyed Yoshida's and SHana's 'date' or so to say. Oh yeah, I enjoyed Sabrac glaring at Dantalion..or how you write it (the professor). Looks like he really has a grudge against him XD

The ending was sudden, but I expected something to happen. With the konoe arc behind us, I expected Hecate to show up once again. It's interesting to see how they'll handle this. I'm all open for some anime-only stuff as long as they'll handle it well enough.

I think that it's a bit too soon for complaining though. There are still 2 whole episodes and I'm sure that they'll give us a good explanation for what happened in this episode.

My prediction:
I think that the balle masque just wants to place the reiji maigo in the Silver. And the balle masque has been planning to get the reiji maigo and the silver together all season already. You could say that the season has been building up to this anime-only part.

After all...the balle masque doesn't know the SnH has something else in mind. I still think that SnH will show up though. Maybe he'll tell Hecate to put it back in because he has other plans.

So many things could happen. Maybe something will go wrong. Maybe the flame hazes will stop her. Maybe this is some kind of illusion. Maybe Hecate is still in the castle of the balle masque and she's just making contact with the reiji maigo somehow with her staff. Who knows. Everything could happen. I'm very interested in next episode.

[Kristen]

Oh I think everyone wants a Kazumi x Hayato pairing. She's annoying, he's barely around. Good combination.

EDIT: Everybody except ChrissyXD

:p

Ending combos:
Shana - Dead
Hecate - Dead
Metamorphosis - Dead
Yuji X Kazumi
Tanaka X Oga
Margery X Sato
Ike X Wilhelemina (:p)

Right?

[Triple_R]

Alright.

Let me start off by saying generally I hate fanservice. There are shows that are made for it, and I think it belongs there. Shana is not one of these shows. It is a rather serious story about a boy and a girl, it was never intended (in my eyes) to end up as just another harem drama/comedy, not unlike School Days or Ninomiya-kun (to name a few).

I don't really see a harem - not since Konoe was absorbed back into Hecate anyway. Hecate herself is certainly no part of a Yuji harem... she's trying to kill him, essentially.

The Konoe section was a bit too long, with not enough action breaks in it - if they had just one fewer "slice of life" episode, and one more action-esque episode, I would have been perfectly Ok with it. Still, as filler goes, I liked it more than the sort of filler you see in animes like Bleach, and Dragonball Z

I guess that were you see "harem", I see "slice of life", and while I myself have grown to dislike harem anime, I do like slice of life anime episodes (in moderation - Shana overdid it for a bit).



Since Shana involves a high school boy and love, it's natural to assume there would be some dramatic tension, but too much of the show's "uniqueness" is getting wasted by focusing on this harem stuff that's not going anywhere. How's Shana unique? Here's a summary of the premise in a single sentence:

One day, a young student named Sakai Yuuji discovers he is not only dead, but is permanently involved in a timless war between malevolent beings called Tomogara and Flame Haze, humans who have allied with Tomogara to hunt them.

How does this premise - a war of humans versus Tomogara - connect to slice of life highschool melodrama?? It only connects vaguely, through Yuuji and Shana and their dynamic; the whole uniqueness of the Shana series is being wasted by not being focused on.

You're right in the sense that the main creative stroke and principal catalyst of both action and uniqueness in Shana is the fascinating war between the Tomogara and Flame Haze, with humans caught in the middle and typically abused or disregarded by both groups.

However, in any good war story, you don't lose sight of those individual and personal elements that make you care about the damaging affects of the war.

As Joseph Stalin said, one death is a tragedy while a thousand deaths is a statistic.

So, the most important thing for an anime with war in it to do is to make you really care about the characters... otherwise the broader drama and impact of the war itself is lost. If you don't care about these characters, then why would you care about the war?

One way to make people care about the characters is to show nice slice-of-life episodes every now and then - to show glimpses of the friendly and serene sort of life that the protagonists (and their supporting cast) are able to have when the war is at a low ebb.

I think that Shana Season 2 tries to take half of their episodes for this goal, and take another half of their episodes for focusing on the action, conflict, and violence of the war itself. Now, that ratio might be a bit too slanted towards "slice of life", but it isn't as bad a ratio as I think some people view it.



What I'm saying is, for those harem episodes, if you took those episodes out of context and showed them to someone who had no idea about what the series was about, he/she wouldn't think of it as an action show. That person would think of it as a generic harem show with good art and average animation.

I really don't get this harem vibe. For several episodes now, it's back to the love triangle, which isn't a harem.

And even the Konoe bit was barely a harem - with three girls seemingly interested in Yuji. In retrospect though, that was never a harem either, as Konoe wasn't a true Harem member in the sense of harem members given by Ranma Saotome's or Negi Springfield's or Tenchi Misaki's harem... but rather a copy of Hecate who was callously using Yuji.

Hecate might be moe, but that doesn't change the fact that she's a cold, selfish and self-centered antagonist, who'll gladly snuff out the life of an innocent teenage boy to achieve her goals. And honestly, Hecate might be moe compared to most anime villains, but she's no Osaka (Azumanga Daioh). If she's the most moe character in Shana than it's not a very moe anime (which I agree with you it shouldn't be).



What I'm trying to get at is this huge involving plot is getting wasted on the harem stuff. It's connected to the fanservice in that Hecate, who is a beloved icon in doujin circles for Shana and was one of the most popular characters last season despite her short tenure because she was "moe", is getting screentime.

I actually liked Hecate in Season 1 for her characterization... not her appearance. I found the concept of a sheltered antagonstic character starving for meaningful life experience, and perhaps what could even be called spirituality, fairly interesting. Now, Hecate has come across as increasingly evil and unsympathetic to me in Season 2, so some of that initial interest in the character has been lost for me. Still, Hecate remains a solid recurring Shana antagonist - she fulfills that role well, I feel.



That's the fanservice - Hecate focus.

I really don't see that. Actually, Shana Season 2 took a longer break from Hecate than I thought that they would. The Konoe arc, filler though it may be, made it very clear that Hecate would be the main antagonist of Shana Season 2.

I feel that the use of Hecate in Shana Season 2 has been downright judicious - they've used her just enough to have her come across as the main villain of Shana Season 2, but nowhere near enough to make someone who doesn't already dislike her character to grow sick of her.

Fanservice is pandering to people by doing something, either jiggling breasts, cooing or getting naked. It can also mean focus on a particular character (not just an item of said character), and Hecate, who has a rather small role in the novels compared with her anime incarnation. All of this is done at the sacrifice of the overall aesthetic of the story - substituting Sairei no Hebi for Hecate to fanboys will have an incentive to buy the DVDs.

You really think that Hecate's moe factor is that huge? Wow, the female villain is cute and all, but again, she's no Osaka in that department.

I can understand your desire to strictly limit the amount of moe in a serious anime like Shakugan no Shana, but I think that you're taking it to the point where you've developed a strong bias against a good villain who happens to be a bit moe. Hecate has served her villain role fine, imo.

[minhtam1638]

:p

Ending combos:
Shana - Dead
Hecate - Dead
Metamorphosis - Dead
Yuji X Kazumi
Tanaka X Oga
Margery X Sato
Ike X Wilhelemina (:p)

Right?

Nah... we might need some more yuri.

Or better yet, Shana starts to feel feelings of the real Yukari Hirai and starts falling in love with Hayato, leaving an opening for a MMFF orgy!

j/k, we all know it's Yuji x Shana.

[DeotoxSlayer]

:p

Ending combos:
Shana - Dead
Hecate - Dead
Metamorphosis - Dead
Yuji X Kazumi
Tanaka X Oga
Margery X Sato
Ike X Wilhelemina (:p)

Right?

1.) Shana is not goin to die, unless Yuji dies with her.
2.) I agree
3.) I Agree
4.) you forgot Bel-Peor
5.) Only gonna happen in your fanfics.
6.) I agree Tanaka, and Oga are so cute.
7.) As much as I would like to see this it probably won't be shown in the Anime, or the Novels.
8.) Your joking right......

[Kristen]

1.) Shana is not goin to die, unless Yuji dies with her.
2.) I agree
3.) I Agree
4.) you forgot Bel-Peor
5.) Only gonna happen in your fanfics.
6.) I agree Tanaka, and Oga are so cute.
7.) As much as I would like to see this it probably won't be shown in the Anime, or the Novels.
8.) Your joking right......

Ike: Wilhelemina, I'm so tired. This whole "Flame Haze" thing is a bit of a shock.
Wilhelemina: You complain too much ~de arimasu~
Ike: I'm sorry. But could you please stop walking so fast?
Wilhelemina: Must make haste to Tomogara station ~de arimasu
Headband: Time Important
Ike: *Sigh*

:p

I omitted Bel-Peor because she's never shown romantic interest in anyone in the love net.


minhtam: Or Hikari breaks out of Shana, as Shana had been collecting power of existance, and there was enough for Hikari to come alive again, and Shana admits that she loves Hikari.

[CapoExecutor]

The omens of the future aren't always good things.
Yet the Sakai household has new life that came from a midnight fling.
The cards of every player's deck each have become like a great stack.
But at least Bel Peol gets to show off her rather prominent rack.
The season sure comes in with a lot of Christmas cheer.
But in Misaki City, you would also have a lot of unresolved fear.
Yuji has just reached the dividing paths in true thinking mode.
But his decision is disrupted by Hecate, the goddess of the crossroads.

Been awhile since you composed your lines, buddy.



Everything needs a bit of something called diversity.
Even the plots and scripts derived from the original story.
What's the point of having something that follows the original to the letter?
It obviously in the long run won't show or present anything better.
Don't put the blame on the production team for their antics.
It's all about the finances that leeches on them like bloodthirsty ticks.
If one doesn't like what they see, that person doesn't always speak for everyone.
Either ignore it or write reviews to the producers about errors that weigh more than a ton.

Even in a serious debate, you surprise me.



:p

Ending combos:
Shana - Dead
Hecate - Dead
Metamorphosis - Dead
Yuji X Kazumi
Tanaka X Oga
Margery X Sato
Ike X Wilhelemina (:p)

Right?

No way in hell is Ike ever going to be paired with Wilhelmina.

Bel Peol X Ken Yoshida (because she likes to torture little kids):heh:

[Triple_R]

I could see Metamorphosis and Bel Peol ending up together... if they both survive to the end.

Kazumi/Ike would have been ideal, since it solves the love triangle in a way that leaves the fewest unhappy unattached characters, but it's unlikely now.

I actually think that there's a pretty good chance that Kazumi or Shana will die. The Kazumi-Yuji-Shana love triangle now strikes me as one that resolves itself by one of the corners getting cut off... honestly, that strikes me as the only way it gets resolved at this rate.

[cnnydz]

^Metamorphosis loves hecate though.

[Triple_R]

^Metamorphosis loves hecate though.

Good point. I don't think that all of Bel Masque is going to survive, though - not unless we get a cliffhanger ending.

[FlameSparkZ]

Well, after seeing this episode, there are a lot of surprises :heh:

Still...Even with Reiji Maigo removed from inside Yuji, he still has that massive amount of power of existence in him to keep him alive for a while...
It was mentioned that it was the about the same as a King of Guze, wasn't it?
Gotta love cliffhangers :heh:

[AzoJason]

Metamorphosis dead would indead be pretty good in my point of view, since
little cute Hecate is FREE! :uhoh:

HecateXYuji

whaha... Would make a nice couple, but not possible, eh?!..

[ThoHell]

Kind of expected that ending/cliff hanger to come. Why does Yuji keep going from strong character to weak? He screamed before anything happened or defending himself.....

[arkxkra]

not bad for this episode, very relax. Congratulation to Yuji, become brother soon. Shana is so cute and pure, asking how to "make child", but this was really a good question.

Finally, Ike confess to Yoshida(I thought this part will be remove since it appear in 1st opening).

Final moment, when Yuji decide which way to go, Hecate come out to stop him, she want him as well?:heh:.

Reiji Maigo removed, so next 2 episode will fighting for retrieve back the Reiji Maigo, another original ending I guess, less chance to be cliffhanger.
looking forward to next episode.

[metronome]

I agree with you there. However, don't you think that if you were a badguy you'd try to be abrupt too? If I were Hecate I'd of materialized infront of Yuuji while he was on the toilet and Shana was at her appartment a long time ago. Much easier that way than when 3 flame haze are flying around him like wasps :)

Yay for a good antagonist planning for once! :heh:

ya, that's why I said it is unexpected but not that surprising
if she wanna do it that way, she could just do it whenever (like you say she could just appear in front of yuuji while he was on the toilet)
they are usually known to have good planned project when they do something, but now what hecate do is kinda "new", something's that they never do before, unexpected and well considering what they are, it is not surprising:D

[metronome]

:p

Ending combos:
Shana - Dead
Hecate - Dead
Metamorphosis - Dead
Yuji X Kazumi
Tanaka X Oga
Margery X Sato
Ike X Wilhelemina (:p)

Right?

hey that's bad
if shana is dead then why should they call it shakugan no shana?:D shakugan no yuuji?:D shakugan no kazumi?:D

shana - alive
kazumi - alive
yuji - dead

will be much much better. they both need to learn about losing and yuji need to learn about reality:D

[Dragon-Emperor]

ya, that's why I said it is unexpected but not that surprising
if she wanna do it that way, she could just do it whenever (like you say she could just appear in front of yuuji while he was on the toilet)
they are usually known to have good planned project when they do something, but now what hecate do is kinda "new", something's that they never do before, unexpected and well considering what they are, it is not surprising:D

Considering that is is rather uncharacteristic of Bel Masque, let alone Hecate to do something so out of the blue, I wonder if there's a reason? I mean, back at the end of the school festival it is clear that Hecate meant to 'dispose' of the R.M's carrier (Yuuji) and obtain the R.M.
So now, perhaps Bel Masque is rushed? Maybe they need to get the R.M to the silver before a certain time. Could make sense why the clock keeps being shown in the episode and the opening.
And considering there aren't many episodes left... I'm going to guess that something is going to happen at a certain time (midnight of that day? or the day after? when R.M regenerates existence?) and that will be the deadline for whatever R.M is needed for to happen. And if they're really cruel, that wil also be the very end of episode 24 (C-c-c-cliffhanger!) :)

(I love the show. I want more seasons, I don't care about the wait. I don't watch it each week hoping for it to 'end'. If I did, I'd just stop watching.)

[CapoExecutor]

Metamorphosis dead would indead be pretty good in my point of view, since
little cute Hecate is FREE! :uhoh:

HecateXYuji

whaha... Would make a nice couple, but not possible, eh?!..

If the J.C. Staff didn't screw the second season up and give a much better sense of continuity...

...it's very difficult but not impossible.


I thought it could've been worse if the J.C. Staff flopped the second season in the manner similar to how Asmik-Ace flopped Rasen/Spiral (if anyone is familiar with the Ringu series).

[Kristen]

hey that's bad
if shana is dead then why should they call it shakugan no shana?:D shakugan no yuuji?:D shakugan no kazumi?:D

shana - alive
kazumi - alive
yuji - dead

will be much much better. they both need to learn about losing and yuji need to learn about reality:D

Because she's the title character in the story. She's the one whose world the story focuses on. Doesn't mean she needs a happy end. :p

*Is patiently waiting for subs to write a full review*

[lua thien]

I thought it could've been worse if the J.C. Staff flopped the second season in the manner similar to how Asmik-Ace flopped Rasen/Spiral (if anyone is familiar with the Ringu series).

Just be thankful that they didn't produce two seasons at the same time. But the storyline seemed turbulent so if they want a good sendoff, expand the season with more episodes.
Now J.C. Staff produced the second season sometime after the first season ended so there is still a significant degree of continuity. It's the storyline

[serenade_beta]

The unworldly "shell" that suddenly appeared in Misaki City.
Shana sensed Yuuji's presence inside it, but both Wilhelmina's ribbons and Margery's Unrestricted Spells could not damage it at all.
Who could perform such a large-scaled attack? From Shana's mouth, the words leak out, "Bal Masque".
But Shana and co. could only guess what was going on inside.
At that moment, Kazumi runs over to Shana.
Shana and co. are shocked by what she says.
At the same time, one pillar of the three pillars of Bal Masque, Hecate, leaves the Midnight Lost Child she stole in front of Yuuji's eyes and tries to ring her great staff "Trigon".

Still nothing about it... Actually, nothing about Yuuji...
As for what Kazumi said that shocked everyone... It could be... about the cross she got from Pheles... :uhoh:

[ashlay]

The unworldly "shell" that suddenly appeared in Misaki City.
Shana sensed Yuuji's presence inside it, but both Wilhelmina's ribbons and Margery's Unrestricted Spells could not damage it at all.
Who could perform such a large-scaled attack? From Shana's mouth, the words leak out, "Bal Masque".
But Shana and co. could only guess what was going on inside.
At that moment, Kazumi runs over to Shana.
Shana and co. are shocked by what she says.
At the same time, one pillar of the three pillars of Bal Masque, Hecate, leaves the Midnight Lost Child she stole in front of Yuuji's eyes and tries to ring her great staff "Trigon".

Still nothing about it... Actually, nothing about Yuuji...
As for what Kazumi said that shocked everyone... It could be... about the cross she got from Pheles... :uhoh:
now wouldn't it be interesting if Pheles suddenly came back. :heh:

Guze Girl Squad, go!

[Darknemo2000]

Poeple, we are not getting breast jokes every 8 minutes, we are not getting unexplainable changes in character personalities, they are not skipping entire books and not smashing three books into two episodes while dedicating everything else for one, and we are getting some character development...

In other words this is not ZnT II.

So lets give them a chance before starting complaining, sure changes do not look all that great for me but who knows...



But J.C. Staff do suck. And before anyone tells that they need to rush to get money and KyoAni doesnt, I would say why? Does that mean KyoAni selects the novels/books/mangas that are more popular than J.C Staff thus have almost instant success?

Nope, they are simply doing a great quality in everything they do, they do not screw things up like J.C Staff.

Just look at Kimikiss... Do you even know how popular Kimikiss game in japan is? Kimikiss should have been a great hit judging just on that, but J.C Staff screwed everything changing it from Shounen romance into Josei Drama. Now the sale rates are really low and despite the popularity of the game the anime is a total disaster.

So yeah, we have to admit simple truth - J.C. Staff are simply a mediocre studio, that can survive with Shana or ZnT first season for some time, but they do not have the talent needed to make them a good consistent producers. This year (and year before) is marked with their failures and screw ups much more than with their success.

Still, even if they will never be anything more than mediocre studio they can give us some decent anime from time to time (like Shana). Sure we could say if KyoAni would be working on Shana it would be twice as good (and it is probably true) but sadly they do not, but I cannot say that Shana itself is doing very bad for JC Staff.

It is not as great as first season, and recent changes do look like leading to a ZnT II pathetic ending, but it is still not ZnT II as a whole. It is much much better, so lets hope taht they are not pulling ZnT II ending on us too.

Lets wait and after it ends we can make conclusions if J.C Staff managed to make a fairly good second season or was it just another screw up that follows their string of recent screw-ups.

[minhtam1638]

Poeple, we are not getting breast jokes every 8 minutes, we are not getting unexplainable changes in character personalities, they are not skipping entire books and not smashing three books into two episodes while dedicating everything else for one, and we are getting some character development...

In other words this is not ZnT II.

So lets give them a chance before starting complaining, sure changes do not look all that great for me but who knows...



But J.C. Staff do suck. And before anyone tells that they need to rush to get money and KyoAni doesnt, I would say why? Does that mean KyoAni selects the novels/books/mangas that are more popular than J.C Staff thus have almost instant success?

Nope, they are simply doing a great quality in everything they do, they do not screw things up like J.C Staff.

Just look at Kimikiss... Do you even know how popular Kimikiss game in japan is? Kimikiss should have been a great hit judging just on that, but J.C Staff screwed everything changing it from Shounen romance into Josei Drama. Now the sale rates are really low and despite the popularity of the game the anime is a total disaster.

So yeah, we have to admit simple truth - J.C. Staff are simply a mediocre studio, that can survive with Shana or ZnT first season for some time, but they do not have the talent needed to make them a good consistent producers. This year (and year before) is marked with their failures and screw ups much more than with their success.

Still, even if they will never be anything more than mediocre studio they can give us some decent anime from time to time (like Shana). Sure we could say if KyoAni would be working on Shana it would be twice as good (and it is probably true) but sadly they do not, but I cannot say that Shana itself is doing very bad for JC Staff.

It is not as great as first season, and recent changes do look like leading to a ZnT II pathetic ending, but it is still not ZnT II as a whole. It is much much better, so lets hope taht they are not pulling ZnT II ending on us too.

Lets wait and after it ends we can make conclusions if J.C Staff managed to make a fairly good second season or was it just another screw up that follows their string of recent screw-ups.

Hey, that's flipflopping. Either pick a side or don't argue at all.

[DeotoxSlayer]

The unworldly "shell" that suddenly appeared in Misaki City.
Shana sensed Yuuji's presence inside it, but both Wilhelmina's ribbons and Margery's Unrestricted Spells could not damage it at all.
Who could perform such a large-scaled attack? From Shana's mouth, the words leak out, "Bal Masque".
But Shana and co. could only guess what was going on inside.
At that moment, Kazumi runs over to Shana.
Shana and co. are shocked by what she says.
At the same time, one pillar of the three pillars of Bal Masque, Hecate, leaves the Midnight Lost Child she stole in front of Yuuji's eyes and tries to ring her great staff "Trigon".

Still nothing about it... Actually, nothing about Yuuji...
As for what Kazumi said that shocked everyone... It could be... about the cross she got from Pheles... :uhoh:

Wait why the hell does Hecate Leave the Reiji Maigo after going through the trouble to steal in from Yuji in the first place...

[teachopvutru]

Hey, that's flipflopping. Either pick a side or don't argue at all.

Actually, regardless of whether J.C.Staff is a worthy studio or not, I wonder why they are so inconsistent with their quality. They have good releases and bad releases, and even in a single series, the gap of quality between some episodes is pretty wide. It's not strange for a studio to release good series and have bad series as well, but their quality range from high end to low end...

[CapoExecutor]

Head-on confrontation against the Balle Masque now. If Hecate yanked the Reiji Maigo out of Yuji that easily, why the heck didn't they do that back in Season 1?

[minhtam1638]

Actually, regardless of whether J.C.Staff is a worthy studio or not, I wonder why they are so inconsistent with their quality. They have good releases and bad releases, and even in a single series, the gap of quality between some episodes is pretty wide. It's not strange for a studio to release good series and have bad series as well, but their quality range from high end to low end...

I agree on this statement, since in all honesty, what J.C. Staff production was quality before the release of Shana? My comment however was directed to the flip-floppity or the seemingness of the flip-floppity to the comment I hath quoted.

[Darknemo2000]

I am not flip-flopping, I am saying that they suck but with shana so far they did a good job, so we should wait for it to end to make final conclusions.

Besides even crappy ending will not make it an ZnT II because this series was not so bad even during the first Konoe arc.

maybe I got carried away explaining why they DO suck as a studio (or at least cannot be proud of their work so far), but I also said that they do make decent animes as well and Shana II will not be their worst series thats for sure (over that title can fight ZnT II, Kimikiss and few others), so we should wait for the ending.

[cnnydz]

Wait why the hell does Hecate Leave the Reiji Maigo after going through the trouble to steal in from Yuji in the first place...

that's why i am confused, because the bal masque didn't need to extract or steal it in the first place.

[Malintex_Terek]

I agree on this statement, since in all honesty, what J.C. Staff production was quality before the release of Shana? My comment however was directed to the flip-floppity or the seemingness of the flip-floppity to the comment I hath quoted.

Like most anime studios, JC Staff had a better reputation for quality in the past - Excel Saga, Azumanga Daioh, and Slayers to name a few. When it comes to non-manga adaptions (the recent fad of anime co.s), though, the studio tends to do rather poorly - I'm sure everyone's heard of how they were contracted to do a Tsukihime anime but the unfinished product was so bad it never went to TV*. Shana I and Zero I were fantastic by their (and other studio's) standards, though there was considerable deviation from the novels and such. But the changes weren't so abysmally bad that people denounced the shows as trash.


*Note: This is a joke.

[Triple_R]

Like most anime studios, JC Staff had a better reputation for quality in the past - Excel Saga, Azumanga Daioh, and Slayers to name a few. When it comes to non-manga adaptions (the recent fad of anime co.s), though, the studio tends to do rather poorly - I'm sure everyone's heard of how they were contracted to do a Tsukihime anime but the unfinished product was so bad it never went to TV*. Shana I and Zero I were fantastic by their (and other studio's) standards, though there was considerable deviation from the novels and such. But the changes weren't so abysmally bad that people denounced the shows as trash.


*Note: This is a joke.

Any anime studio with Excel Saga, Azumanga Daioh, Slayers, and Shakugan no Shana, to its name, is a pretty dang good studio, and most certainly does not suck, in my opinion. Those are four high quality animes, overall, and represent impressive range (from pure comedy/parody/spoof to slice of life to fantasy action to whatever you would classify Shana has).

[minhtam1638]

I am not flip-flopping, I am saying that they suck but with shana so far they did a good job, so we should wait for it to end to make final conclusions.

Besides even crappy ending will not make it an ZnT II because this series was not so bad even during the first Konoe arc.

maybe I got carried away explaining why they DO suck as a studio (or at least cannot be proud of their work so far), but I also said that they do make decent animes as well and Shana II will not be their worst series thats for sure (over that title can fight ZnT II, Kimikiss and few others), so we should wait for the ending.

:p great, now I am being flipfloppity. But there was ambiguity within your previous post. Hence I probably used the wrong word.

[X207]

just out of curiosity. i hav a question about yuji's mindset in battle after seeing how sabrac was defeated. it also does apply to other flamehaze but yuji is a bit different imo. in the various battles they destroy alot of territory and there is presumable frozen ppl in those areas. do they see the sacrifice as nessesary or are they looking at it from the point of view to minimise ciovlian casualties?

[teachopvutru]

just out of curiosity. i hav a question about yuji's mindset in battle after seeing how sabrac was defeated. it also does apply to other flamehaze but yuji is a bit different imo. in the various battles they destroy alot of territory and there is presumable frozen ppl in those areas. do they see the sacrifice as nessesary or are they looking at it from the point of view to minimise ciovlian casualties?

As long as these people's PoE aren't getting eaten up, any extend of casuality can be restored if the seal hasn't been broken before the restoration. Okay, I'm not sure about "any extend" part, but those people won't be turned into Torch even if they are burned into ashes; that's how Ogata still is alive, anyway.

[Dark Wing]

do they see the sacrifice as nessesary or are they looking at it from the point of view to minimise ciovlian casualties?

I believe it's more the first. Remember how Shana acted during season one when she first met Yuuji. How she talked so casually about the torches disappearing from existence...Yea they all kind of have the same mindset.:heh:

[ashlay]

that's why i am confused, because the bal masque didn't need to extract or steal it in the first place.
maybe the Konoe Fumina in her won't let her leave?

or maybe they just need to do whatever they're doing at that spot, and Yuji isn't seen as a particular threat to the plans? (still wouldn't explain why she took it out >_>)

[Darknemo2000]

Any anime studio with Excel Saga, Azumanga Daioh, Slayers, and Shakugan no Shana, to its name, is a pretty dang good studio, and most certainly does not suck, in my opinion. Those are four high quality animes, overall, and represent impressive range (from pure comedy/parody/spoof to slice of life to fantasy action to whatever you would classify Shana has).

Yet, you always need to keep the production quality.

These are just few many of the tittles they did.

Thos were good by your usual anime studios standarts but there were quite a few trash tittles as well.

Recently, their work really dropped in terms of quality, or are you going to say that ZnT II was a masterpiece or that Kimikiss was financial success (it is pretty easy to say even without the last episode how "great" it is and will be doing in the future)?

Shakugan No Shana and Zero No Tsukaima made them famous but thair recent string of failures makes them more and more famous in negative sense of the word.

I mean a studio who manages to screw up Kimikiss game's popularity must have same serious talent on screwing up. Even on the summer there was a great anticipation of the project and quite many believed that this could be their financially best title (better than Shana or zero).

But after really bad ZnT II they also somehow managed to screw things up with Kimikiss as well (I guess changing shounen romance into josei drama doesn't work).

Now they are making some negative reputation.

Shakugan no Shana II is doing fairly well, so at least this tittle seems like successful and even without the end it is still much better than ZnT II nor does it has ridiculous experiments with the genre (Kimikiss).

Thats why they do suck, even if they had some great tittles they also have an impressive list of non-successful trash tittles, or, recently, even plain bad failures that should have been great success (ZnT II, Kimikiss).

Yet, with Shana even if second season isnt as good as the first, it is pretty fairly done and if they do not seriously screw things up with the ending they will get a pretty successful continuation of the first season.

In case of Shana we really should wait with our conclusions, but all and all - J.C Stuff is a rather sucky studio.

And as in case of many other anime you have to wonder what if KyoAni would have been doing their tittles. Though i guess it is not fair as KyoAni is on completely different level than J.C Staff...

Well we have what we have, and in SnS II it is doing pretty well so lets wait with the complaining until it ends.

[Irenicus]

LOL @ the negativity of this thread. Anime fans, serious people.

Also, no offense, Darknemo2000, but it seems as if you're just carrying your anti-Kimikiss anime agenda to the Shana thread. That doesn't make your posts particularly trustworthy to be very frank.

Not to mention your point is confused: "J.C. Staff has some great titles, but they still suck." How am I supposed to buy that? It doesn't make logical sense whatsoever.

P.S. I'm also officially sick of the "If only KyoAni has done this" sentiment. To be utterly straight, that's dumb.

[Darknemo2000]

It can happen. A few great titles doesn't make you great studio when you have a great bunch of failures as well, specially when the number of failures keep on increasing.

And I have forgotten about Kimikiss - stopped watching the crap after 4th episode and now only follow the sales rate which, you cannot object, is rather low, specially for such a game hit as Kimikiss...

So it is not anti-kimikiss, if anything the series that really turned me off were not Kimikiss but rather ZnT II.

But even without those latest titles J.C. Staff still has a solid amount of failures at their feet which makes them only mediocre at best.

They sometimes are capable of hitting the mark, but again when you make so much stuff as they do you just have to hit the mark from time to time.

[Malintex_Terek]

Any anime studio with Excel Saga, Azumanga Daioh, Slayers, and Shakugan no Shana, to its name, is a pretty dang good studio, and most certainly does not suck, in my opinion.


You shouldn't just stereotype a studio as good just because they can claim to have ownership over certain titles, it's the staff that matter. Gainax's Gurren-Lagann would have been nothing had it not had a fantastic staff, most of which consisted of free-lancers in the writing/art direction department.

Sunrise has produced nothing but trash with the sole exception of Planetes since GaoGaiGar in 1997, following the split of its studio and the departure of its best staff to BONES.

Studio Madhouse, the company that animated Akagi and Kaiji, also churned out garbage like Kaibutsu Oujo and Maple Story. The budgets were similar (shockingly) for all four titles, but the clear defining feature was the quality of staff and use of that budget.

[Owaranai Destiny]

The negativity I find here sounds surprisingly similar to one of the habits some Japanese have, and that is Age Tsurau (Finding Endless Fault). I only hope this argument doesn't go all the way off-track to talk about J.C Animation when this is supposed to be about Episode 22 for Shakugan no Shana Season II, no matter how "trashy" one thinks the studio is.

EDIT: While I'm not for the continual presence of bashing of the studio here, that doesn't mean I'm unaware of the faults they make, so let those who are confident they can do a better job say what should be. ;)

And I'm quite surprised at Darknemo2000's pessimism. The forums here (at least) consider Kimikiss to be a pretty good story on the whole.

Now, back on topic. I've noticed a few screenies with Ike and Kazumi in one of them. Sounds pretty much like the first OP, an appearance of Sabrac and Hecate taking Reiji Maigo out of Yuuji. Sounds pretty interesting.

[Darknemo2000]

Owaranai Destiny, its not the pessimism about Kimikiss it is the truth.

But it is not so badly received in here, but the main market is japan and in japan is it is VERY badly received. Why? Well, obviously, one reason is the game itself. Poeple here never played the game so the differences do not seem so offending, while in Japan the game is very popular thus has many fans, and as a result such huge changes in Kimikiss (both genre and character wise) is not met well.

Thats why financially it is a failure. A total crap. Specially since before airing there was a huge hype about the Kimikiss and everyone expected it to be even greater success than Zero No Tsukaima (first season of course) and Shakugan No Shana, because it was the most initially popular title that J.C Staff got so far (even Shana or ZnT wasn't as popular as Kimikiss initially was/is).

Thats why this so called "pessimism" about it. It is because it is very badly received in japan. I admit that here it is not so bad, but in Japan it is, and thats where the main market lies.

Besides you have to remember that western world tastes are different so what is good in japan might be pretty bad here, and what is bad here migh be good in Japan. Anime is also similar. You can't just bring a successful in Japan title and hope it to be a success here, sometimes it leads to failures.

As far as Kimikiss goes - in japan it is a total failure because (no matter how weird it sounds) it has a lots of fans.




But again we should be talking about Shana here anyway.


And weirdly, my initial intent was to ask people stop complaining about JC Staff because though they produces a lot of crap Shakugan is one of those tittles where they seem top be doing pretty well, so we should wait until the end before starting complaining.

[pikuchan]

Yeah, last time I checked, Kimikiss vol 3 only sold about 1500 copies. It's kinda sad to see a show as good as Kimikiss sell that bad...:sad:

Now, as for Shana, I'd say the show actually doing pretty well right now and we should reserve our judgement until the show actually end.

[vorpal83]

Comrades, do you HATE Yoshida Kazumi?
If you do, come down to the Anime's Most Frustrating & Annoying Characters Thread in General Anime

Let the whole world know how annoying Yoshida Kazumi really is.

[Owaranai Destiny]

@ Darknemo2000: Sounds reasonable. The way I see it, it's all about finding fault with every single thing they don't find 'perfect' in their own sense. I suppose anyone a little too critical or expectant of how something should turn out would be extremely disappointed when they don't get what they want. IMO, it's silly, but that's the way things work, I suppose...With Kimikiss, and with lots of people flaming J.C Animation specifically for the fact that they have practically screwed up everything for Shakugan no Shana.

Anyway, I gotta play this game sometime, else I'll never understand how the irked fans feel. :)

Comrades, do you HATE Yoshida Kazumi?
If you do, come down to the Anime's Most Frustrating & Annoying Characters Thread in General Anime

Let the whole world know how annoying Yoshida Kazumi really is.

Now that's what I'm talking about. Keep the crap out of here and into another "dump". Although I don't particularly hate Kazumi, thanks for the heads-up, vorpal83. At least there will be less trash in here.

[X207]

As long as these people's PoE aren't getting eaten up, any extend of casuality can be restored if the seal hasn't been broken before the restoration. Okay, I'm not sure about "any extend" part, but those people won't be turned into Torch even if they are burned into ashes; that's how Ogata still is alive, anyway.

I believe it's more the first. Remember how Shana acted during season one when she first met Yuuji. How she talked so casually about the torches disappearing from existence...Yea they all kind of have the same mindset.:heh:

ty both of you. after reading those posts i still cant come to a concrete conclusion. when the doll pedo in se1 bust into the classroom. shana wanted to use the annoying blond's POE bc she was 1/2 dead. but then ogata in flames coming back healthy or was she also half dead back then?? can a physically destroyed body in a fuzetsu also damage the life force? that having been asked, i shall avoid this thread until the subs come out.

[teachopvutru]

ty both of you. after reading those posts i still cant come to a concrete conclusion. when the doll pedo in se1 bust into the classroom. shana wanted to use the annoying blond's POE bc she was 1/2 dead. but then ogata in flames coming back healthy or was she also half dead back then?? can a physically destroyed body in a fuzetsu also damage the life force? that having been asked, i shall avoid this thread until the subs come out.

If you dispel the Fuzetsu without doing any restoration, then yes, people with severe injuries will die. That's why in the first season, the most logical conclusion Shana came up with was to use the half dead person as a source of PoE to fix everything until Yuji offered his PoE, since Shana didn't have another source of PoE available. PoE is required to restore stuffs in the Fuzetsu, everything including broken buildings, injuries, etc. As for Ogata's case, I believed Yuji's PoE was also used since he got a heck lot of it.

P.S: I'm guilty, too, but this should go to Q&A thread...


On the other hand, Ike's confession has finally come but people are more shocked about how this episode ends that they forgets about one of the most anticipated moments since this season started, eh? :(

[DeotoxSlayer]

Sunrise has produced nothing but trash with the sole exception of Planetes since GaoGaiGar in 1997, following the split of its studio and the departure of its best staff to BONES.

I object to that I agree that some of the new shows by Sunrise such as Gundam Seed Destinyweren't as good as Planetes, or GaoGaiGar, but Sunrise has stil made some pretty good shows lately, such as Code Geass.

I guess we should start getting off this topic before the mods get pissed.

[HayashiTakara]

I love how Carmel acted as the over protective mother, Shana is infintely cute in this episode. Great stuff

[Triple_R]

Yet, you always need to keep the production quality.

These are just few many of the tittles they did.

Thos were good by your usual anime studios standarts but there were quite a few trash tittles as well.

Recently, their work really dropped in terms of quality, or are you going to say that ZnT II was a masterpiece or that Kimikiss was financial success (it is pretty easy to say even without the last episode how "great" it is and will be doing in the future)?

Shakugan No Shana and Zero No Tsukaima made them famous but thair recent string of failures makes them more and more famous in negative sense of the word.

I mean a studio who manages to screw up Kimikiss game's popularity must have same serious talent on screwing up. Even on the summer there was a great anticipation of the project and quite many believed that this could be their financially best title (better than Shana or zero).

But after really bad ZnT II they also somehow managed to screw things up with Kimikiss as well (I guess changing shounen romance into josei drama doesn't work).

Now they are making some negative reputation.

Shakugan no Shana II is doing fairly well, so at least this tittle seems like successful and even without the end it is still much better than ZnT II nor does it has ridiculous experiments with the genre (Kimikiss).

Thats why they do suck, even if they had some great tittles they also have an impressive list of non-successful trash tittles, or, recently, even plain bad failures that should have been great success (ZnT II, Kimikiss).

Yet, with Shana even if second season isnt as good as the first, it is pretty fairly done and if they do not seriously screw things up with the ending they will get a pretty successful continuation of the first season.

In case of Shana we really should wait with our conclusions, but all and all - J.C Stuff is a rather sucky studio.

And as in case of many other anime you have to wonder what if KyoAni would have been doing their tittles. Though i guess it is not fair as KyoAni is on completely different level than J.C Staff...

Well we have what we have, and in SnS II it is doing pretty well so lets wait with the complaining until it ends.

I haven't seen Zero No Tsukaima or Kimikiss. Most of the anime I've watched were recommended to me by one or both of a couple good friends of mine who were anime fans before I was. There's a few exceptions (Magic Night Rayearth was an anime I watched due to how I searched various internet databases for a magical girl anime I might like, and Rayearth caught my eye), but by and large, most anime I've watched were recommended to me by friends who are anime fans.

So, in fairness to you, I haven't made it a point to watch all of the anime produced by a particular studio, or all of the most recent anime titles. Maybe that's a good thing, though - it sounds like I'm avoiding crap that way. OTOH, maybe it is making me judge anime studios on the basis of their good titles too much (as I'm by and large not seeing the crap).

[teelotes]

While the cannibalism of JC Staff continues, I reckon it has gotten to the point where it doesn't make a difference watching with or without subs. I've always avoided watching raws since my half-baked knowledge of Japanese will totally spoil the episode; however, since it's already that bad, it can't get any worse right?

Well, the more you expect, the worse it'll get. Or something along that line. As cliche as it gets, the expression is still true nonetheless. Probably someone could provide affirmation, but for this episode, I think the animation isn't done as badly as I felt it had been for the past episodes. I partiuclarly like the scene at the bridge with Yuji & his dad. The sky is pretty well done, so is the peaceful day mood. Of course I had no idea exactly what they were talking about, but I roughly understand the gist.

Of course, it could be that the lack of need to read the subs and comprehend the plot had made me pay more attention to the art and animation and appreciated it more, but still, I have to say I enjoyed this episode more than the rest. I should probably watch the whole series with subs off before giving an overall opinion.

That's not all. Here are some scenes which I enjoyed:

1. The return of Hayato the scarecrow, though again he didn't receive much elaboration, though finally making progress. I did notice the "missing cars" animation glitch, but overall the mood for that part was okay and done appropriately.

2. http://randomc.animeblogger.net/image/Shakugan%20no%20Shana/Shakugan%20no%20Shana%20II%20-%2022%20-%2010.jpg

3. melonpan!!! <3

4. Wilhelmina with the butter knife. I don't know why, I just liked it. But of course things went downhill from there and the mood for moe just disappeared.

Lastly, though it not be my matter (or whatever way to put it), I think we should leave the JC Staff bashing to the Overall Series Impression thread (if there would be any), or the dedicated thread after the whole series has ended. I ain't advocating or encouraging such discussion, but I think it'll be apt to judge those things only after the series has completed. Even if you decide to drop the series, reserve your comments until then, and you might just gain a different perspective as time goes by.

[nines]

so from what im reading is this like the end of the second series :O if so wtf....

[The Real Nemo]

so from what im reading is this like the end of the second series :O if so wtf....
No there are still two episodes left, this is just the point where for better or for worse the anime deviates from the novels once again.

[HayashiTakara]

I pray for a 3rd Season... which theres a good chance for since the series is quite popular... but, it won't be for a couple of years... just as it took a couple of years for season 2 to come out >_>...

[Tokkan]

I pray for a 3rd Season... which theres a good chance for since the series is quite popular... but, it won't be for a couple of years... just as it took a couple of years for season 2 to come out >_>...

By the time a 3rd season will be out, hopefully the novels will be finished so we have no original ending.

[HayashiTakara]

Anbody else feel that considering the situation at hand, that Kazumi just might use her hougo to summon Pheles? I sure hope so XP

[DeotoxSlayer]

Anbody else feel that considering the situation at hand, that Kazumi just might use her hougo to summon Pheles? I sure hope so XP

So Kazumi's gonna use the Hougo in an anime original ending...yeah that makes sense.

[minhtam1638]

So Kazumi's gonna use the Hougo in an anime original ending...yeah that makes sense.

If this is to happen, then J.C. Staff will pretty much not have a third season, since Kazumi is almost central to the storyline. But it will have a great ending. This will answer the question "How greedy is J.C. Staff in terms of money."

[FlareKnight]

Well at least I'm caught up in the discussion. Lot of heat coming at the studio, but since I haven't read the novels will try to stay out of it.

Good on Ike to do what he had to. Even if he knew it wouldn't go well for him, better to get it out there than to just float around. Can now move forward in whatever direction he chooses.

Just knew the letter thing would have a problem. Any time Shana gets close there is just another disaster on its way. This time Yuji doesn't even get to head in her direction before we have a problem. Really Hecate read the mood a little :heh:.

Yuji's next training needs to go on reaction time to a surprise situation. Sure never easy to react quickly, but seriously need to improve on that.

Sabrac's still kicking as well. I guess someone that impressive has to hang around for another day.

Well let's see how things turn out. Have to get the Reiji Maigo back or its not going to matter one bit who Yuji wants to be with.

Damn Shana have to love the baby question. She just had everyone completely thrown for a loop. Though her blushing when Kazumi told her about telling it in public being more embarrassing than being in the nude. Still something pretty entertaining about Shana wanting Kazumi to teach her about that subject :D.

[Kristen]

South Exit! South Exit! Don't go to the North! The north is Shana, and it's cold in the north! Cold means winter, which is symbolic of death! Warm in the South means Kazumi, Spring, everlasting life!

And I actually liked Wilhelemina for about 2 minutes as she was telling Shana to give up on love with Yuji. Then she betrayed my sudden liking by helping Shana. Stupid talking headband...

Overall, this episode was interesting for me because I was constantly urging everything in the right direction. When they showed Ike and Kazumi, I was so happy when she rejected him, and my heart nearly skipped a beat when Yuji was waiting for them.

The steal of the Reiju Maigo makes a lot of possible plot devices come into play. Yuji can't fight anymore, as he just has a torch's P.O.E. Thinking further, it was night when it was removed, so he probably isn't at a full torch's potential. Do they end the series by having Yuji disappear?

Or, maybe they have Shana realize that the only way she can show Yuji love is to die for his sake, and she makes Yuji into a flame haze by some unknown means, and Kazumi becomes Pheles's and they live on for an eternity together. ^_^

Since I was intrigued by this episode, it gets an 8.

[Proto]

Well, it has been mentioned previously that Yuji's has a Guze no Ou level POE, so it should be a while till he runs out of it and needs to resort to Tomogara like methods to restore it.

[Kristen]

Well, it has been mentioned previously that Yuji's has a Guze no Ou level POE, so it should be a while till he runs out of it and needs to resort to Tomogara like methods to restore it.

Because of the Reiju Maigo. I thought it was that the P.O.E. was extremely high because of what Hecate did to the Reiju Maigo, so it contained more. Or did the container itself expand?

Regardless, I don't think he'll fight. It's very risky for him to do so without a limitless supply.

[Rhyel]

Reiji Maiko go out too easy. LOL

Now We know the name of the future Yuji brother... Yuji. :D

[Tendou88]

Now it is clear that kazumi will use hougo and maybe become a torch after.
Yuji will be a torch for next episode since he dont have his reiji maigo, i wonder if he can still fight.

And i was surprised that Sabrac was alive, maybe he will help the good guys and become Yuji's tomogara or Satou.
Seems like bal masque used Sabrac, u could tell from their eye sights, but Sabrac aint stupid it seems.

[S_K]

Why does this always happen?!? I mean like it always gets to the point where an important event is going to happen, and then we get interrupted. Although I'll let it slide this time because it's about time Bal Masqué enters. hopefully these next few episodes will be good or elseeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!! :frustrated:

[HayashiMugen]

Has anyone noticed that the karaoke is messed up for the end song?

In episode 21 it went like this
ー　祈る天展に　無限の様な時が止まる

In episode 22 it went like this
ー　祈る天展に　夢のような時が止まる

English Translation (Eclipse Fansubs)
I pray to the stars in the sky, and the surreal time stops.

夢　means dream.
無限　means unlimited or unmeasured.
天 means heaven.

I know that 天展 (tensei) would be the stars. Now to the point where 無限 or 夢 comes in to play. Why would you replace　無限 with 夢？ (Mugen with yume.)

[FlareKnight]

South Exit! South Exit! Don't go to the North! The north is Shana, and it's cold in the north! Cold means winter, which is symbolic of death! Warm in the South means Kazumi, Spring, everlasting life!

Or, maybe they have Shana realize that the only way she can show Yuji love is to die for his sake, and she makes Yuji into a flame haze by some unknown means, and Kazumi becomes Pheles's and they live on for an eternity together. ^_^

Since I was intrigued by this episode, it gets an 8.You do know there is a south pole right :heh:? Nothing is wrong with the North. They get summer too you know. Plus great fun in skating, skiing, and snowball fights during the winter.

Also isn't the one most likely to die for Yuji's sake, Kazumi? With her talking about using the hougu for Yuji and Shana's sake if she wasn't chosen.

Anyways I think they should just hurry and get the Reiji Maigo back. Instead of testing Yuji's POE capacity.

[Malintex_Terek]

Now We know the name of the future Yuji brother... Yuji.


I'm not so sure.

1. Yuichi
2. Yuji
3. Yumi?

[Kristen]

You do know there is a south pole right :heh:? Nothing is wrong with the North. They get summer too you know. Plus great fun in skating, skiing, and snowball fights during the winter.

Also isn't the one most likely to die for Yuji's sake, Kazumi? With her talking about using the hougu for Yuji and Shana's sake if she wasn't chosen.

Anyways I think they should just hurry and get the Reiji Maigo back. Instead of testing Yuji's POE capacity.

Japan's in the northern hemisphere, so the north is cold. :p

And yeah, she should too, and Pheles becomes a contractor to save Kazumi or something.

[Rhyel]

I'm not so sure.

1. Yuichi
2. Yuji
3. Yumi?

Err... Don't ruin my joke, right? :heh: :)

[KaneDragon]

Two options: Shana or Yoshida. So of course Yuji takes a third option (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TakeAThirdOption) and gets Hecate instead. Good call, Yuji--the loli with a nice hat (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NiceHat). :D


Sometimes a hero faces an agonizing decision where the apparent two choices are terrible, such as a Friend Or Idol Decision or a Sadistic Choice.

However, sometimes the hero can respond with, "I don't like those choices, I'm taking a third option!" It is usually something completely unorthodox or seemingly suicidal. Yet this typically turns out to be the best choice after all, and the day is saved completely.

Note that this will usually either be incredibly awesome, if the scriptwriters are clever, or incredibly stupid, if they're not.

[_DaViD_]

i just dont want shakugan no shana to finish like Zero no tsukaima and i will be happy, well a lil' angry if yuji stays with kazumi but is better than that Sh*ti ending of ZnT.

[X207]

If you dispel the Fuzetsu without doing any restoration, then yes, people with severe injuries will die. That's why in the first season, the most logical conclusion Shana came up with was to use the half dead person as a source of PoE to fix everything until Yuji offered his PoE, since Shana didn't have another source of PoE available. PoE is required to restore stuffs in the Fuzetsu, everything including broken buildings, injuries, etc. As for Ogata's case, I believed Yuji's PoE was also used since he got a heck lot of it.

P.S: I'm guilty, too, but this should go to Q&A thread...


On the other hand, Ike's confession has finally come but people are more shocked about how this episode ends that they forgets about one of the most anticipated moments since this season started, eh? :(

ty very much. looks like ep 23 will be an interesting ep with knocking outyuji out of the fight b4 it even began. i'd be fine if kazumi used the hougo to save yuji and have his friend forget about her. it doesnt look like there will be a concrete choice/ending to the triangle unless something drastic happens.

[FlareKnight]

Japan's in the northern hemisphere, so the north is cold. :p

And yeah, she should too, and Pheles becomes a contractor to save Kazumi or something.I guess it all comes down to where you are positioned in terms of the warm and cold thing.

But maybe one thing that surprised me was Kazumi the night before. Sure it would probably help Shana and Yuji out if Pheles could show up to save the day. But is it suddenly ok for her to just give up her life like that just because she isn't picked. No matter what should keep on living. I'd hope going with the hypothetical that Shana and Yuji can ever get together, that Kazumi wouldn't go with that kind of thinking. Since she's not with Yuji it's alright to use her life like that.

Even though I'm all for Shana and Yuji together, doesn't mean I'd be jumping for joy if Kazumi perished. Obviously if she was chosen (hell no :))wouldn't want to be using that hougu. Scene just seemed a bit sad to me. That she is contemplating whether its alright to sacrifice herself if not picked.

Well just a random thought that came to me.

[grey_moon]

The only time I didn't actually want any action! aRrrrrrrgggghhhhhhh

I'm glad Yoshida didn't angst over her choice as it would have made most of S1 and all of S2 go all redundant. Gotta feel for the poor guy, but at least he has bossy woman to rule his life forever... Actually I really feel sorry for him now :p

[The Real Nemo]

I guess it all comes down to where you are positioned in terms of the warm and cold thing.

But maybe one thing that surprised me was Kazumi the night before. Sure it would probably help Shana and Yuji out if Pheles could show up to save the day. But is it suddenly ok for her to just give up her life like that just because she isn't picked. No matter what should keep on living. I'd hope going with the hypothetical that Shana and Yuji can ever get together, that Kazumi wouldn't go with that kind of thinking. Since she's not with Yuji it's alright to use her life like that.

Even though I'm all for Shana and Yuji together, doesn't mean I'd be jumping for joy if Kazumi perished. Obviously if she was chosen (hell no :))wouldn't want to be using that hougu. Scene just seemed a bit sad to me. That she is contemplating whether its alright to sacrifice herself if not picked.

Well just a random thought that came to me.
The way I interpreted the scene was that Kazumi was wondering if she'd still be willing to give up her life for Yuji and Shana's sake even if she isn't picked. If she is picked then she'd gladly give her life for him if necessary.

[Master Chibi]

This entire episode was absurdly predictable, but I'm still mildly interested, let's hope the next episode is better.

And man did they ever bone Ike over or what?

[Anh_Minh]

Is it wrong to think of Hecate's intervention and slow murder of Yuji as "saved by the bell"?

[KholdStare]

Okay, I really loved this episode. 9/10

I'm not sure how well this fits in with the novel, but I really like this episode. Kazumi wasn't annoying for once, and that baby thing was pretty funny...poor Shana. Anyways, we'll be expecting a third season for sure, and I'll be watching it. It was a pretty decent season with its ups and downs, and it will receive a 6/10 from me if the ending is mediocre and 7/10 if the ending is amazing.

[Darkside]

I thought Yuji was supposed to die if the Reiji Maigo wa s removed? Or is it a slow damage over time effect? lol

[Tokkan]

I thought Yuji was supposed to die if the Reiji Maigo wa s removed? Or is it a slow damage over time effect? lol

He's supposed to die if it's forcefully removed, like being cut up. The only thing forceful here is that it was removed against his will, Hecate removed it with little effort.

[MrShin]

I think this wraps everything;
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a284/bakathor/Shin/Shakugan.jpg

[greyhawk]

After reading through 9 pages in frustration of not being here earlier and not understanding what all that drama was for, I now believe it's pointless to argue over a mere TV show, let alone drag a whole animation studio into it.
If some of you don't happen to like the show or the way it's done, you can drop it, see if I care. Such things don't prove that you are very concerned about the series, but rather wanting to be a quibbling assh*. I wouldn't even bother making remarks that aren't in the least constructive.
I'm enjoying SnS II more and more as it's approaching the end:D (I'd feel sorry if I were the only one who thinks that way). Yuji'll choose Shana, obviously, they wouldn't be building things up for this long just for the title character to be dumped would they?

[KholdStare]

After reading through 9 pages in frustration of not being here earlier and not understanding what all that drama was for, I now believe it's pointless to argue over a mere TV show, let alone drag a whole animation studio into it.
If some of you don't happen to like the show or the way it's done, you can drop it, see if I care. Such things don't prove that you are very concerned about the series, but rather wanting to be a quibbling assh*. I wouldn't even bother making remarks that aren't in the least constructive.
I'm enjoying SnS II more and more as it's approaching the end:D (I'd feel sorry if I were the only one who thinks that way). Yuji'll choose Shana, obviously, they wouldn't be building things up for this long just for the title character to be dumped would they?

Nice post. Cookies.

And I agree that SnS II is getting more enjoyable. I love most how Ike told Kazumi, and her reactions were just perfect, complemented with what happened after that. What SnS II is doing is not integrating action and romance, and that is fine. It's just different from season one. We just think it's worse because we're expecting SnS II to be presented like how season one was presented.

If Yuji picks Kazumi, then this series fails, completely. He already tried to reject her, known her feelings for a long time, and never made any kind of signs that he likes her one bit. If for some reason he picks her, then there would be no logic in that. Of course, only Canvas 2 can pull this off, and really, I don't believe that J.C. Staff has the ability to pull off a Kazumi ending period, so Shana it is.

Wow, the Master Throne, Hecate. Hot.

[mir]

I think this wraps everything;
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a284/bakathor/Shin/Shakugan.jpg

Yup that about sums it up. Hecate is not only kicking ass, but also looks awesome while doing so. Still holding on to the .000000001% chance of a Hecate x Yuji ending XD

[Mukki]

South Exit! South Exit! Don't go to the North! The north is Shana, and it's cold in the north! Cold means winter, which is symbolic of death! Warm in the South means Kazumi, Spring, everlasting life!

And I actually liked Wilhelemina for about 2 minutes as she was telling Shana to give up on love with Yuji. Then she betrayed my sudden liking by helping Shana. Stupid talking headband...

Overall, this episode was interesting for me because I was constantly urging everything in the right direction. When they showed Ike and Kazumi, I was so happy when she rejected him, and my heart nearly skipped a beat when Yuji was waiting for them.

The steal of the Reiju Maigo makes a lot of possible plot devices come into play. Yuji can't fight anymore, as he just has a torch's P.O.E. Thinking further, it was night when it was removed, so he probably isn't at a full torch's potential. Do they end the series by having Yuji disappear?

Or, maybe they have Shana realize that the only way she can show Yuji love is to die for his sake, and she makes Yuji into a flame haze by some unknown means, and Kazumi becomes Pheles's and they live on for an eternity together. ^_^

Since I was intrigued by this episode, it gets an 8.

Despite how out of character it would be for Pheles to make a contract with anyone, we also have to take into account that while she is a powerful Tomogara, she is nowhere near the power of Tiamat, Alastor, Marco, etc.

Add on the fact that Yoshida has no combat experience or knowledge at all...

So, if somehow Yoshida were able to contract with Pheles, logically she would end up being incredibly weak. :uhoh:

Not to mention that her cap for PoE wouldn't even be able to hold much more than an average human, she would quite possibly end up not becoming stronger at all if this were to happen. That's why I never understood these fanboyish theories of her becoming a flame haze.

[holyman282]

This ep was amazing and cemented my concrete belief that i'm not just watching this show for the action. The emotion in this ep was deep and heart felt, in this ep we saw that every character has made a dramatic change from how they started from ep 1 of S1. In this ep so many things were happening such as Ike confessing to Yoshida or Yoshida and Shana's love confession letters, being just a few.

The part where Yuji's father told him that he was the second born and that they hoped that the brother's life that didn't make it would add to Yuji's really tugged at my heartstrings. It's also ironic and symbolic that Yuji will indeed live longer with the Reiji Maigo implanted in him.

The music and animation this ep was stunning, off course the confession had to take place on christmas eve as the snow just sets the atmosphere.

The music near the end was mesmerising and it also managed to end on a cliffhanger.

Who cares if the Shana/Yuji/Yoshida triangle has yet to be resolved, this ep took series a hell lot closer to being resolved.

I only have 2 questions

1.When will the music we heard in this ep come out?

2. What does Yuji's name mean in relation to what was discussed about Yuji's name in the ep? I still don't get it could someone plz explain.

[HayashiTakara]

Kazumi exploding with Pheles popping out? I'm all for it. Considering its about retrieving the Reiji Maigo, Pheles is the best person to call. She'll have some power to remove it Hecate's grimy hands and return it to Yuji.

Edit: Am I just imagining things... or does Yuji's dad sound a lot like Sabrac? maybe they just have the same VA, or are they... you know?

[Anh_Minh]

This ep was amazing and cemented my concrete belief that i'm not just watching this show for the action. The emotion in this ep was deep and heart felt, in this ep we saw that every character has made a dramatic change from how they started from ep 1 of S1. In this ep so many things were happening such as Ike confessing to Yoshida or Yoshida and Shana's love confession letters, being just a few.

The part where Yuji's father told him that he was the second born and that they hoped that the brother's life that didn't make it would add to Yuji's really tugged at my heartstrings. It's also ironic and symbolic that Yuji will indeed live longer with the Reiji Maigo implanted in him.

Or, you know, disappear and be forgotten in the next few days or months.

Also of note, the Yuji that was born is already dead.

[Kristen]

Despite how out of character it would be for Pheles to make a contract with anyone, we also have to take into account that while she is a powerful Tomogara, she is nowhere near the power of Tiamat, Alastor, Marco, etc.

Add on the fact that Yoshida has no combat experience or knowledge at all...

So, if somehow Yoshida were able to contract with Pheles, logically she would end up being incredibly weak. :uhoh:

Not to mention that her cap for PoE wouldn't even be able to hold much more than an average human, she would quite possibly end up not becoming stronger at all if this were to happen. That's why I never understood these fanboyish theories of her becoming a flame haze.

I don't think Pheles' abilities have been revealed at all. To start off with, she was able to fight Sabrac and survive. She created the Reiju Maigo. She was able to create a second entity of herself. She fought alongside Wilhelemina. And she has done all of that, just living off of torches.
Wilhelemina said that Pheles was too dangerous of an opponent, and if she came, it would be a catastrophe. There was no chance of victory.
I think Pheles is powerful enough to be a lord of Guze.

Also, Yuji had no combat experiance, I don't think Margery had any combat experiance, that kid from Margery's past had no combat experiance, and I don't think Wilhelemina was tossing ribbons at people before she became a Flame Haze. But, as Shana said, she has the knowledge of the entire world.

Also, it's not a fanboyish theory until a male agrees with my theory. Until then, it's fangirlish. :p

[Deathscyther]

Good episode. I'm just surprised with the ending. I wonder why Hecate did it and what will happen next.

[grey_moon]

Any cute girl asking people openly how to make babies deserves to win :p

[teelotes]

How old are Yuji's parents? They said something about having Yuji 16 years after the firstborn, or did I read wrongly?

[serenade_beta]

2. What does Yuji's name mean in relation to what was discussed about Yuji's name in the ep? I still don't get it could someone plz explain.

Yuuji's name in kanji is "悠二" which has "二" (two) symbolizing the fact he is their second kid. That's why Kantarou wants the third kid to have a three in his name.

[teelotes]

I don't think Pheles' abilities have been revealed at all. To start off with, she was able to fight Sabrac and survive. She created the Reiju Maigo. She was able to create a second entity of herself. She fought alongside Wilhelemina. And she has done all of that, just living off of torches.
Wilhelemina said that Pheles was too dangerous of an opponent, and if she came, it would be a catastrophe. There was no chance of victory.
I think Pheles is powerful enough to be a lord of Guze.

Also, Yuji had no combat experiance, I don't think Margery had any combat experiance, that kid from Margery's past had no combat experiance, and I don't think Wilhelemina was tossing ribbons at people before she became a Flame Haze. But, as Shana said, she has the knowledge of the entire world.

Also, it's not a fanboyish theory until a male agrees with my theory. Until then, it's fangirlish. :p

In the end, she couldn't protect Johan and had to safekeep him in Reiji Maigo. I think it didn't matter how strong she was, all she wanted to do (and why she did all those) was because of Johan. Mentality-wise, she's just as good as the other Tomogaras, because without Johan, all she cared for was herself.

I've always wanted a side story about the travels of Wilhelmina & the Engage Link. There is a lot of room for good character development there, as I'm curious how a Flame Haze would work alongside a Tomogara and a Mystes. There must have been lots of misunderstanding, and funny or touching moments. Also, there would be periodic action provided by their encounter with Sabrac. Elaboration on their friendship bond would boost the Pheles arc and explained many things too. But now that Pheles has been formally introduced, I don't think they'll go back to doing this side story again.

[Anh_Minh]

How old are Yuji's parents? They said something about having Yuji 16 years after the firstborn, or did I read wrongly?

Early to mid thirties, I forgot the precise number. He said that the third kid came 16 years after the first two (Yuuji and his dead (stillborn?) older twin).

[Guido]

Honestly, I was worried at how the animation staff would handle direction of the show's storyline for the remainder episodes.


Thankfully, the Bal Masque made their last preparations at the episode's prologue which triggered with Hecate seemingly pulling out the Reiji Maigo from Yuuji's body towards the end of the episode to initiate the last arc for season two.


Between those two events there was a relative calm and to me an unexpected enlightment about the main characters.

1. Satou won't be swayed away too easily after all the things he has experienced and watched in the world of Guze. He truly wants to work for Outlaw, using any means or people possible even that requires he must confront his estranged father.

2. Ike, heeding Satou's advice, finally put his guts together for a radical mean to change his whole person and confessed Kazumi his feelings, although Kazumi politely apologize at not being able to accept them.

3. Kantarou's conversation with Yuuji had the most anticipating and suspenseful feeling to me. That's because I precipitated with my assumptions and thought that Yuuji was actually adopted, and thus, explaining a little bit about the nature of his self being 'dead' for a long time without him realizing it, until meeting Shana.

4. Wilhelmina's discussion with Shana was as well tense, since Wilhelmina again displays her motherly affection and concern for Shana, and which we haven't seen since the latter half of the previous season and at the start of season two.

5. The real funny moments were everyone getting blushed at Shana's naivety asking about how she can make babies. Kazumi gives some word of advice about being a topic which can't be discussed openly, since it is more embarrassing than being looked at naked.
Shana immediately got the gist of what really meant, since her previous experience with Yuuji at the very start of season one.:heh:

[Sinestra]

Man iv given up hope that the hate in SnS forum will ever go away makes thing so unpleasant sometimes and you can only face palm so much when someone writes 5 paragraphs about how they wish Kazumi was dead but doesnt talk about anything else in show or when the Shana Shippers go on a rampage *face palms again*

A lot of people seem to dislike this episode. I found nothing wrong with it maybe because i am separating the novels and the anime. I have only read a handful on the novels and decided to go back to once this season is done. I do like how they tried to move to some type of resloution in the romance department. But that slippery Yuji manages to find a third option lol. The shock of having RM taken from him will be a lot to handle at first. Im sure his first reaction will be the fear of him fading away. From what i understand he needs to get it back at least before midnight since thats when the RM restores his POE,

I enjoyed Shana's and Carmels little spat back and forth since they both made valid points. The fact that Alastor stayed quiet showed what his opinion is already nothing else to be said. Carmel is such a mother figure to Shana which is why i love their interactions. The fact that she offered to make her a dress for the occasion shows how much she cares and there is no color more fitting for Shana than red.

Not sure if they can or will wrap everything in the end or if we are going to see a season 3. But the joy of a new life either a baby sister/brother shows that life goes on but also i see it as another reason for Yuji to protect the city and get stronger. I dont think he and Shana will leave the city in the end everything they love and want to protect is there.

side note it was nice to Ike get his feelings out there even if he was turned down. At least he can say he tried and told his feeling instead of living with the regret of Kazumi never knowing how he truly felt. I do hope Kazumi comes out ok even if she is not chosen i would like to see all the characters end up with a pretty nice ending. There is no one who i feels deserves to die in SnS every character has their strengths and their weaknesses.

Good episode solid 8/10

[Kinny Riddle]

Excellent episode. Just when last episode felt like a "final episode", this episode showed that it can still be gripping even without any action, save for the anticipated cliffhanger near the end.

Last week, I was disappointed that Sabrac "died" so quickly after only two episodes, but decided to get on with it. Then this week I find out he's actually still alive and well, I don't know whether I should feel glad that such a villain has survived or how anti-climatic to bring him back after Shana finished him in epic style only just last episode.

So this is why Chigusa was ill, she was pregnant. Figures. The main reason for Kantarou and Chigusa to get married was Yuji's late twin sibling. Hence the "ji" (two) in Yuji's name.

Though it's interesting to note that had there been no Reiji Maigo on Yuji, Kantarou might just end up calling the new baby Yuji instead of giving him/her a "san" (three) in his/her name, since the original Yuji would have been forgotten.

LOL at Shana asking how to make babies.

More LOL at Wilhelmina nearly cutting herself with the butter knife after Shana says she's gonna confess to Yuji.

It was a nice touch to mention Wilhelmina's unrequited love for Merihim, a complex love-quadrangle briefly mentioned in the prequel episodes last series and in more detail in novel volumes 5 and 10, both prequels, thus linking it with her concern that Shana might get rejected just as she had suffered from Merihim.

Even Ike has decided to move on. Though Yoshida decides she still loves Yuji, Ike bears no hard feelings. For him, just being able to confess his love was a huge burden lifted off his shoulders, and he has no regret. May you be rewarded for your bravery one day.

In the end, Hecate arrives to relieve Yuji from having to choose between Shana and Yoshida. Bal Masque now puts their master plan to motion. I can feel it, "that" which has been whispered here and there before the mods removed it from the non-spoiler threads. I may pretend I don't know, but I cannot completely forget what I accidentally read when I stumbled upon seeing "that". Until then, I'll try and cast "that" off my mind and retain as much suspense as I can.

No comment on all the senseless hate, I just spent a post last episode reprimanding one poster for his frequent slandering and contributing nothing to the discussion, so I won't add anymore.

[teelotes]

Early to mid thirties, I forgot the precise number. He said that the third kid came 16 years after the first two (Yuuji and his dead (stillborn?) older twin).

Oh... ok I get it now. So the first child is a twin of Yuji. I've always thought he was like an older brother. Everything makes sense now :heh:

[Sinestra]

So this is why Chigusa was ill, she was pregnant. Figures. The main reason for Kantarou and Chigusa to get married was Yuji's late twin sibling. Hence the "ji" (two) in Yuji's name.

Though it's interesting to note that had there been no Reiji Maigo on Yuji, Kantarou might just end up calling the new baby Yuji instead of giving him/her a "san" (three) in his/her name, since the original Yuji would have been forgotten.



Thats an interesting point you have made there about Yuji's name if had disappeared if there was no R.M. I never thought about it like that but it does make sense. Which leads me to believe there is a still a chance that the current Yuji will disappear and the new baby will be Yuji "Ji" since the of course the dead brothers memory wont fade. Im hoping that all of Yuji's hard work and struggles pay off and he can live his life with mother, father his new little brother or sister and of course which ever girl he choses. Just feel like it would be such a waste after everything he has been through to see him fade away and no one remembers him.

[Kinny Riddle]

Having gone through the posts ahead, I discovered that it might be a blessing to not have read the latest novels as it seems to deviate once again. I blame Kadokawa Taiwan for their slow progress with translation. Once I get my hands on reading them, then perhaps I can passionately join in the campaign of you guys to burn down JC STAFF's HQ. :D

But before then, please don't post your spoilers here, not even with spoiler tags if you don't label them properly. There's a Spoilers and Speculation Thread for that purpose. You don't see me spouting out the entire plot of Clannad in the episode threads, do you? :cool: Thank you for your consideration.

Come to think about it, those last 5 episodes in series 1, where they had Bal Masque captured Yuji and "inserted" his memories into Hecate, causing her to moan suggestively, served no purpose towards the main storyline as outlined by author Takahashi at all.

Of course Bal Masque had a masterplan with the Reiji Maigo all along, but those five episodes were completely pointless.

[Anh_Minh]

I don't think Ike's truly moved on. At least, I don't like to think so.

The conditions he's set - the suddenness of the confession, the asking for a quick decision... That was like asking to fail. Which is fine, if it's just getting into another phase of his love. Now his relationship with Kazumi isn't tainted by deceit. Even if he was rejected, he can keep trying until she gets a boyfriend or his own feelings change. Whichever comes first. Kinda like what she's been doing.

But if he did it as a kind of last ditch effort before putting the matter behind him... That'd be rather disappointing.

[Kinny Riddle]

I don't think Ike's truly moved on. At least, I don't like to think so.

The conditions he's set - the suddenness of the confession, the asking for a quick decision... That was like asking to fail. Which is fine, if it's just getting into another phase of his love. Now his relationship with Kazumi isn't tainted by deceit. Even if he was rejected, he can keep trying until she gets a boyfriend or his own feelings change. Whichever comes first. Kinda like what she's been doing.

But if he did it as a kind of last ditch effort before putting the matter behind him... That'd be rather disappointing.

Nah, you're just in denial. :heh:

OK, I was just joking. By heading towards Yuji, Yoshida has given Ike the signal that he can finally move on. Of course being rejected hurts, but Ike would rather have that, than live the rest of his life in regret that Yoshida never knew his feelings for her.




BTW, around the scene where Shana asks Yoshida how to make babies, does anyone notice that her twin ponytail resemble that hawt Chinese girl in Gundam 00? (I only watch the screenshots in blogs of that series, it's more entertaining that way for me. :cool: )

[Solais]

I haven't seen this episode yet, but it seems Shana Second has failed like Nanoha StrikerS to me. I loved the first season, but the second one? Full with boring everyday-life episodes, with only a bit action at the end, and that's it.

[Whitemoon648]

Kazumi exploding with Pheles popping out? I'm all for it. Considering its about retrieving the Reiji Maigo, Pheles is the best person to call. She'll have some power to remove it Hecate's grimy hands and return it to Yuji.

Edit: Am I just imagining things... or does Yuji's dad sound a lot like Sabrac? maybe they just have the same VA, or are they... you know?

That has been my theory since he apeared. For some reason i think Yuji's dad is somehow Sabrac.

I mean how did Yuji recieve reji maigo? He probably was eaten and sabrac actually gave it to him to save him. Sabrac might have fallen in love with Yuji's mom or something.

I said that in some thread along time ago, and some one said that Yuji ( as stated in anime) got it randomly.

Once I get my hands on reading them, then perhaps I can passionately join in the campaign of you guys to burn down JC STAFF's HQ. :D

But before then, please don't post your spoilers here, not even with spoiler tags if you don't label them properly. There's a Spoilers and Speculation Thread for that purpose. You don't see me spouting out the entire plot of Clannad in the episode threads, do you? :cool: Thank you for your consideration.

.


Some of these guys dont want to listen at all. I have been telling them to stop posting spoilers but no one listens. I see the same people doing it over and over. I mean as you even said, there is a reason for having speculation thread right?

P.S. I have tried to avoid reaching this conclusion, But sadly some people enjoy anoying people by spoilin them.

[nines]

I get the feeling that Yoshida will summon Pheles now that the RM has been removed and would probably want it back. Plus Pheles thinks of the RM still as Yohan technically he still is the RM. but all i can say to this was damn another shoot down lol.

and no yujis dad does give off some weird ass aura emphatically but i dotn think his a king of guze if he is anything at most he probably works for outlaw or is a flamehaze lol. He has to do something when he first came into the show he was stalking shana and she said he was at a high level so lol XD

[FlareKnight]

Well I don't think the rejection was as bad for Ike as it could have been. He pretty much knew it wasn't going to go his way. But still had to do it just so there wouldn't be any regrets for not ever saying anything. Still takes guts to walk into that situation knowing it's probably not going to be your day.

[teelotes]

I'll not accept Yuji's father as Sabrac. That'll be past my tolerance level for "brokenness", at least for this anime. But the Outlaw theory might just work. Anyways, Yuji needs a fatherly figure to turn to; it's quite common to have a character that just seems to know everything and be easygoing with things, but have a hidden side that will save the protagonist during a crisis. I'll be waiting patiently for some action from his Dad.

[Toreno]

I haven't seen this episode yet, but it seems Shana Second has failed like Nanoha StrikerS to me. I loved the first season, but the second one? Full with boring everyday-life episodes, with only a bit action at the end, and that's it.

I'm tired of you people complaining about the lack of action in SnSII. This ISN'T an action anime, it's the story about a boy and a girl. It NEVER was a pure action anime.

I don't think Kantarou is Sabrac as Yuji and the Flame Hazes would notice his POE, and Sabrac got alot of it!

[teelotes]

Well I don't think the rejection was as bad for Ike as it could have been. He pretty much knew it wasn't going to go his way. But still had to do it just so there wouldn't be any regrets for not ever saying anything. Still takes guts to walk into that situation knowing it's probably not going to be your day.

I think that was a gracious exit, just walking on without turning back. I'm guessing this will be the last we'll see of him, at least for this series, though I'm curious about how he'll actually handle it, after putting on that brave front. I'll definitely miss him, being one of the first few characters that started the series, and made Yuji not look like such a nerd without any friends in school.

[nines]

What i would love to see is Kantarou being a flame haze he just seems like hed be one he goes all over the place probably like sabrac a hitman in a way lol

[Cheezy]

Agreed with Toreno.

Go watch shounen if you want so much action.
..though I don't like the romance in this anime when Yoshida is involved.
Also, Lol at Shana's 'how do I make babies?"

[nines]

I think the romance with shana is kind of creepy she looks like a 7 year old and is way to tiny so if he where to like shack up with her thatd be really weird lol+

[whodaman]

Noo a cliffhanger... I hope Yuji chooses someone before the season ends. If he doesn't I'll just pretend the season ended 1 episode ago...

I wonder what would happen if he chose Shana... I think Yoshida will be sad for a while and will probably have to make a decision with that cross thing.

If he chose Yoshida, then Shana would probably have one of her "moods" again and regret it later.

I can also completely see that he never gets around to it. (Remember when Shana tried to tell him that she loved him before and then an "event" happened)

[CapoExecutor]

Pity that there isn't a Santa Claus Flame Haze to interrupt Hecate's ambush on Yuji.

[BigGimp77]

While it isn't on the same level as ZnT II butchering, This second season has been FAR less enjoyable then the first. I don't buy the whole "JC Staff had to rush it for money," because if you need money one thing you don't wanna do is put out an inferior product on your most popular series. You will only lose fans that way.

If this is the end of the anime then I'm going to be left with a bad taste in my mouth. And I cant read effin Japanese to find out what really happens.

[Solais]

I'm tired of you people complaining about the lack of action in SnSII. This ISN'T an action anime, it's the story about a boy and a girl. It NEVER was a pure action anime.


I'm not saying that SnS is pure action, I'm saying that in the first season the number of school-life episodes and action episodes were well balanced, but in this season there is not enough action. But, I think it's off-topic, so I'm off.

[rainbow_star]

I think this episode is so boring, but the ending was a big surprise!
Can they get back the Reji Maigo for Yuji in the next couple episodes? :D

[nines]

in a couple of episodes i think he would of faded away because eventually like how shakugan no shana started with that one girl she started to act blank and crap and people started to forget him so that will eventually start with yuji seeing how it started like as soon as that girl was brought back as a torch

[Whitemoon648]

I'm tired of you people complaining about the lack of action in SnSII. This ISN'T an action anime, it's the story about a boy and a girl. It NEVER was a pure action anime.

I don't think Kantarou is Sabrac as Yuji and the Flame Hazes would notice his POE, and Sabrac got alot of it!

the same way he can hide his power untill the suprise attack, and the same way no one noticed that he escaped, Then the same way ( and yes the same way) he could hide his POE.

Well its just a theory i have had since he showed up. Because i find it odd as how Yuji suddenly got RM since the first series.


Also the conversation today was wierd. I mean the one Yuji had with his dad. He gave Yuji the name because of his older brother. As a proof he existed. Maybe he is giving the third child the name 3 as a proof that the other two brother existed. Maybe he knows something is going to happen to him.

Well again its just a wild theory, which i highly doubt will fruit.

[Klashikari]

I'm tired of you people complaining about the lack of action in SnSII. This ISN'T an action anime, it's the story about a boy and a girl. It NEVER was a pure action anime.

Since when Shakugan no Shana was a SOAP series?

To be quite honest, SnS was enjoyable because it has its fair share of genres and colorful characters.
The huge problem with SnS second is the fact the balance is completely broken, with almost half the series completely debatable, due of the meaninglessness and questionable content of these.

The triangle wasn't a problem at the first glance, but it became a sick trend in second season, where the relationships are going nowhere (at least, it isn't going forward then BACKWARDS like Zero no Tsukaima Futatsuki no Kishi)
What is worse is when the actual "action parts" are atrociously underwhelming, poor and very short to the point the "power balance" is completely off to what we were shown in season 1.

To add the insult to the injury, many parts of the series suffered almost the same animation lazyness and such from first season despite the vintage difference.

[Anh_Minh]

Nah, you're just in denial. :heh:

OK, I was just joking. By heading towards Yuji, Yoshida has given Ike the signal that he can finally move on. Of course being rejected hurts, but Ike would rather have that, than live the rest of his life in regret that Yoshida never knew his feelings for her.
He could move on at any time before. He still can.

What I'm saying is that, while he did confess his feelings, what he did barely qualifies as asking her out. He gave her little reason to turn toward him. Little time to even consider it. And, as she herself showed, a confession doesn't have to be the end.

Sure, she still loves Yuji. He knew that going in. But if his resolve is so weak that the little he's done so far is all he can do to woo her, he should never have said he loved her in the first place. He shouldn't have talked big to Yuji at the end of S1, or acted all angsty to Sato.



BTW, around the scene where Shana asks Yoshida how to make babies, does anyone notice that her twin ponytail resemble that hawt Chinese girl in Gundam 00? (I only watch the screenshots in blogs of that series, it's more entertaining that way for me. :cool: )

Not really. For one thing, she kinda lacks the double-O...

[Toreno]

the same way he can hide his power untill the suprise attack, and the same way no one noticed that he escaped, Then the same way ( and yes the same way) he could hide his POE.

Well its just a theory i have had since he showed up. Because i find it odd as how Yuji suddenly got RM since the first series.

Yuji already noticed him when Zarovee and Bifrons appeared, but couldn't detect Sabrac cause his "body" was the whole city. This way Yuji felt that there's something suspicious, but couldn't tell where it came from.
If Kantarou was Sabrac, Yuji would have this strange feeling again he had before.

Since when Shakugan no Shana was a SOAP series?

To be quite honest, SnS was enjoyable because it has its fair share of genres and colorful characters.
The huge problem with SnS second is the fact the balance is completely broken, with almost half the series completely debatable, due of the meaninglessness and questionable content of these.

The triangle wasn't a problem at the first glance, but it became a sick trend in second season, where the relationships are going nowhere (at least, it isn't going forward then BACKWARDS like Zero no Tsukaima Futatsuki no Kishi)
What is worse is when the actual "action parts" are atrociously underwhelming, poor and very short to the point the "power balance" is completely off to what we were shown in season 1.

To add the insult to the injury, many parts of the series suffered almost the same animation lazyness and such from first season despite the vintage difference.

I never said SnS was a SOAP series, did I? ;)
I said SnS isn't a pure action series as some people seem to think. They just keep complaining. And that gets a bit tiring. Sorry that's just my opinion...or my imagination. ^^
I agree on the rest of your post. The genres aren't very well balanced.


Toreno

[Mukki]

I don't think Pheles' abilities have been revealed at all. To start off with, she was able to fight Sabrac and survive. She created the Reiju Maigo. She was able to create a second entity of herself. She fought alongside Wilhelemina. And she has done all of that, just living off of torches.
Wilhelemina said that Pheles was too dangerous of an opponent, and if she came, it would be a catastrophe. There was no chance of victory.
I think Pheles is powerful enough to be a lord of Guze.

Also, Yuji had no combat experiance, I don't think Margery had any combat experiance, that kid from Margery's past had no combat experiance, and I don't think Wilhelemina was tossing ribbons at people before she became a Flame Haze. But, as Shana said, she has the knowledge of the entire world.

Also, it's not a fanboyish theory until a male agrees with my theory. Until then, it's fangirlish. :p

Nah, if Pheles was powerful enough to contract a flame haze, she would have been able to have beaten Sabrac. As it stands, do you really think Alastor or the likes would have had trouble with him at all?

Regarding Wilhelmina, there's no saying what happened before she became a flame haze regarding how much experience she had. The only person we've seen a detailed look at before their flame haze life was Shana who was given extensive combat training before being contracted. Wilhelmina sure seemed to see this as normal.

Furthermore, Yuji has no combat experience, but he has the advantage of the Reiji Maigo's keeper that can boost his PoE. Despite that, who has he taken out on his own anyway? Zarovee? That means that a Flame Haze Yoshida would have to stick to murdering old men, or at least people around his level. Thing is, Zarovee had about as much PoE as a torch. :heh:

Now, Yuri's a bad example, as he was looked down on by everyone as a flame haze (in fact, he wasn't even allowed to fight), and well, you know what happened to him. If anything, that would illustrate my point.

As far as it being fangirlish or fanboyish - I'm glad you admit it at least :eyebrow:

[viny]

LOLZ! shit always happend when it's confession time

[cnnydz]

I don't think Pheles' abilities have been revealed at all. To start off with, she was able to fight Sabrac and survive. She created the Reiju Maigo. She was able to create a second entity of herself. She fought alongside Wilhelemina. And she has done all of that, just living off of torches.
Wilhelemina said that Pheles was too dangerous of an opponent, and if she came, it would be a catastrophe. There was no chance of victory.
I think Pheles is powerful enough to be a lord of Guze.

Also, Yuji had no combat experiance, I don't think Margery had any combat experiance, that kid from Margery's past had no combat experiance, and I don't think Wilhelemina was tossing ribbons at people before she became a Flame Haze. But, as Shana said, she has the knowledge of the entire world.

Also, it's not a fanboyish theory until a male agrees with my theory. Until then, it's fangirlish. :p

pheles is no where near the level of marchosias and tiamat, let alone alastor. you have to realise that the flame haze can't use the power of its contractor to its full potential (except enpatsu shakugan)
i don't know if you have noticed but most of the top flame hazes are princes (khamsin) and princesses (Margery, Wilhelmina), this means they will have a much larger poe cap than the others (poe cap of a flame haze is directly related to how famous they are). this mean even if kazumi becomes a flame haze she will have a very low poe reserve
margery got no experience? i don't know where you got that from but she killed far more tomogara than kazumi have seen in her entire life. and as you have said Wilhelmina didn't become a powerful flame haze right after her contract, she gained thoses skills over hundreds of years, but i don't think kazumi and yuji can wait that long.:heh:

however what i really don't understand is why you want her to be a flame haze. i mean i was hoping that shana could stop being one, there is a reason why flame hazes are called "shells".

[minhtam1638]

Since when Shakugan no Shana was a SOAP series?

To be quite honest, SnS was enjoyable because it has its fair share of genres and colorful characters.
The huge problem with SnS second is the fact the balance is completely broken, with almost half the series completely debatable, due of the meaninglessness and questionable content of these.

The triangle wasn't a problem at the first glance, but it became a sick trend in second season, where the relationships are going nowhere (at least, it isn't going forward then BACKWARDS like Zero no Tsukaima Futatsuki no Kishi)
What is worse is when the actual "action parts" are atrociously underwhelming, poor and very short to the point the "power balance" is completely off to what we were shown in season 1.

To add the insult to the injury, many parts of the series suffered almost the same animation lazyness and such from first season despite the vintage difference.

lol, since when was Shana a soap series - that line is full of win.

Well, when you look back to the content, I guess you can say that J.C. Staff also underestimated the amount of content that could possibly be used from the novels. Then again, this also goes back to the rush job that I talked about earlier.

[BigGimp77]

Since when Shakugan no Shana was a SOAP series?

To be quite honest, SnS was enjoyable because it has its fair share of genres and colorful characters.
The huge problem with SnS second is the fact the balance is completely broken, with almost half the series completely debatable, due of the meaninglessness and questionable content of these.

The triangle wasn't a problem at the first glance, but it became a sick trend in second season, where the relationships are going nowhere (at least, it isn't going forward then BACKWARDS like Zero no Tsukaima Futatsuki no Kishi)
What is worse is when the actual "action parts" are atrociously underwhelming, poor and very short to the point the "power balance" is completely off to what we were shown in season 1.

To add the insult to the injury, many parts of the series suffered almost the same animation lazyness and such from first season despite the vintage difference.
QFT. Great points, I agree with all of those.

[The Real Nemo]

What is worse is when the actual "action parts" are atrociously underwhelming, poor and very short to the point the "power balance" is completely off to what we were shown in season 1.
When did that happen?

[Whitemoon648]

Since when Shakugan no Shana was a SOAP series?

To be quite honest, SnS was enjoyable because it has its fair share of genres and colorful characters.
The huge problem with SnS second is the fact the balance is completely broken, with almost half the series completely debatable, due of the meaninglessness and questionable content of these.

The triangle wasn't a problem at the first glance, but it became a sick trend in second season, where the relationships are going nowhere
What is worse is when the actual "action parts" are atrociously underwhelming, poor and very short to the point the "power balance" is completely off to what we were shown in season 1.

To add the insult to the injury, many parts of the series suffered almost the same animation lazyness and such from first season despite the vintage difference.

Well I think its about time people forget about those few horible episodes. Yeah episode 6 to 10ish was kind of anoying, but since episode 11 we have had a fair amount of action. But yeah, you are right. SNS did have a mix of many genres, But just scrap like 5 episode from SNS2 and it will be fine.

P.S. Some people havent watched Zero no Tsukaima *_* btw. So could you edit that bit of info on it.

[AuditionEX]

I'll teach Shana how to make babies. :D

Again.. when Shana tries to confess,. there's always an interruption. WTF!!

I give a 1 for a crappy drama filler for this episode

+2 for Shana made me lol.

Overall 3/10 (Must be funnier and more action JCSTAFF!!)

[Triple_R]

Well I think its about time people forget about those few horible episodes. Yeah episode 6 to 10ish was kind of anoying, but since episode 11 we have had a fair amount of action. But yeah, you are right. SNS did have a mix of many genres, But just scrap like 5 episode from SNS2 and it will be fine.



Agree. Episodes 6 to 10 or so really overdid the slice-of-life stuff, but from 11 on the action-to-character/relationship development ratio has been solid. So... it's time to move on from that overly long stretch of nothing but slice-of-life episodes that ended over 10 episodes ago.

For the past 10 episodes or so, Shakugan no Shana has been around the pace of Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha A's (which also made use of a Christmas Eve setting, interestingly enough) and the mid portion of Mai HiME, which is probably where Shakugan no Shana should be.

And, speaking personally, I thought that the cliffhanger bit with Hecate coming out of nowhere to attack Yuji was splendid. A good theatrical villain moment, imo.

[Whitemoon648]

Yuji already noticed him when Zarovee and Bifrons appeared, but couldn't detect Sabrac cause his "body" was the whole city. This way Yuji felt that there's something suspicious, but couldn't tell where it came from.
If Kantarou was Sabrac, Yuji would have this strange feeling again he had before.




As i mentioned in my post, Maybe Sabrac has a way of hiding his POE completly. Well Yuji noticed it because he had speard his power all over the city. Maybe when in human form he doesnt need to spread power.


All i am saying, there was no need for his dad to apear in this episode. Now that he has, then something might be up ( plot wise).

[nines]

ok well yea the epi was weird Sabrac "am i done here" then pretty much his dad shows up after that so maybe theyre trying to set us up to think that so you cant rule it out because that can be a fake body or he could of set another mass unrestricted spell to make them not sense his PoE so.

Personally i think its not true but it is a possibly how they set it up

[Aquifina]

Well, I really don't have the energy to dive into this large stream of debates over the season as as a whole, but I for one liked the ep., despite the fact that I've been "spoiled."

Some comments:

1. I *still* think there will be some kind of blowback from all that time Konoe spent with Yuji and his friends--I expect Hecate to hesitate or do something unexpected. I still remember that scene with her and the birds, which seemed to point back toward Konoe.

2. The contrasting styles of love letters for both I thought was well done.

3. The "making babies" gag was hilarious.

4. Nice resolution for the argument between Shana and Wilhemina.

5. Good for Ike, even if he's doomed.

6. Whether or not there will be a 3rd season, I think they will need to resolve the love triangle. And that obviously means Shana and Yuji declaring their love for one another someway and somehow.

7. Considering the generally upbeat character of the series, and my own feeling that we will see a true anime-only ending and no third season, I think Shana and Yuji will both live. Perhaps we'll see them leave the city together. To add a hint of melancholy, perhaps Kazumi will sacrifice herself; all that emphasis on the hougu would seem to hint at that. However, if they decide to have a sad ending, then *both* Shana and Yuji will die *together*; it is hard to imagine only one living at the end.

8. Pheles will at some point come back in the next two eps.

9. All of the above is speculation, and I genuinely look forward to how J.C. Staff will resolve things. I'm also cautiously optimistic that we'll see a satisfactory ending to the season (and perhaps the series as a whole).

[nines]

lol good eye i guess aquifina :O

umm question for people who read the manga has it even gotten this far yet or is it like way ahead and the anime on line with it?

[Whitemoon648]

ok well yea the epi was weird Sabrac "am i done here" then pretty much his dad shows up after that so maybe theyre trying to set us up to think that so you cant rule it out because that can be a fake body or he could of set another mass unrestricted spell to make them not sense his PoE so.

Personally i think its not true but it is a possibly how they set it up

Doesnt really have to change the body. Spike the hair and change the color of the hair due to powering up. Then put on the sabrac gear on him. Fit exactly right. And also some one else said that they think the voice actor is the same. Well i thought they sounded diffrent but i am not really good with voice differentiation.

There are alot of hints that he might be, But i highly doubt it. I Mean if he actually was sabrac, why would he want his son dead? they seem to be really close with each other. I mean He seems even closer with yuji than Chigusa.

P.S. I was kinda overjoyed that Sabrac survived. I was really curious to see who he was reserving power for ( he said he was reserving some power for certain some one that he might not even see). I am guessing it might be Pheles. But we wont know untill we see it. Or who knows it might be Yuji's dad lol :D.

[CapoExecutor]

Is it possible for Yoshida to get someone, say like her younger rother, to use Phele's cross? Not that she would but then again, her Shana-tan alter-ego might.

[Sterling01]

Her younger brother doesn't exist in J.C Staff's version

[Proto]

He was mentioned by name in the episode Yoshida met Kamshim.

[Kristen]

pheles is no where near the level of marchosias and tiamat, let alone alastor. you have to realise that the flame haze can't use the power of its contractor to its full potential (except enpatsu shakugan)
i don't know if you have noticed but most of the top flame hazes are princes (khamsin) and princesses (Margery, Wilhelmina), this means they will have a much larger poe cap than the others (poe cap of a flame haze is directly related to how famous they are). this mean even if kazumi becomes a flame haze she will have a very low poe reserve
margery got no experience? i don't know where you got that from but she killed far more tomogara than kazumi have seen in her entire life. and as you have said Wilhelmina didn't become a powerful flame haze right after her contract, she gained thoses skills over hundreds of years, but i don't think kazumi and yuji can wait that long.:heh:

however what i really don't understand is why you want her to be a flame haze. i mean i was hoping that shana could stop being one, there is a reason why flame hazes are called "shells".

Margery and Wilhelemina were princesses? Fame shows POE cap? Honestly, I don't think this was announced anytime in the anime, and honestly, I don't want to know about it until they do.

Margery killed Tomogara before she became a Flame Haze? I thought she'd just freeze in a Fuzetsu like everyone else. I think in terms of comparing Margery with Kazumi, Kazumi has probably seen and experianced the world much more than Margery had at the time of her contract.

And honestly, I don't care whether they become flame haze and live on eternally together, or both become normal and live normal lives together. I just want them together, no matter what the end result. Even dying for each other would be fine.

[teachopvutru]

Margery killed Tomogara before she became a Flame Haze?

I don't see that anywhere in cnnydz's post...

[Master Chibi]

Christ I wish I was in this thread earlier to applaud Malintex, seriously I've been saying that since the first bloody episode.

This second season really should have been a 6 episode ova or, at best, thirteen episodes. It's been such an awful disaster, and these past few episodes have just barely negated the trash that filled up the first half of this season.

[Mukki]

I think in terms of comparing Margery with Kazumi, Kazumi has probably seen and experianced the world much more than Margery had at the time of her contract.
.

What is that based on? :confused: Margery was older than Kazumi when she contracted with Marco, and I'm pretty sure she had experienced a lot more. Kazumi is still a virgin for one :uhoh:

[teelotes]

I think in terms of comparing Margery with Kazumi, Kazumi has probably seen and experianced the world much more than Margery had at the time of her contract.

Margery has gone through some really difficult times before making her contract, as shown in her flashbacks. Remember Silver? The flashbacks don't show the full story, but enough to let you know that she definitely went through more than Kazumi.

[Tokkan]

Margery and Wilhelemina were princesses?

Not sure about Wilhelmina, but Margery was, IIRC, a famous whore, not a princess. The reason she became a flame haze is because she wanted to kill all the men who came to the brothel for her, but Silver came along and did it for her in a bloody massacre and treated Margery herself to some disturbing imagery.

Fun fact, the name "Margery Daw" actually comes from "See Saw Margery Daw", a children's nursery rhyme that subtly describes prostitution.

[Eisdrache]

*sigh* People just have WAY to high expectations after season 1, there is just no way to satisfy everyone. If they make a slower episode, people are coming out asking for more fights. If they make an action episode, they come out and complain about Yoshida Kazumi.

I havent read the novels but I am perfectly fine with this episode. The only thing I wonder about is when exactly Yujis mother got pregnant? It was quite suprising, since his father not being home that much. As a side note I loved the how to make babies talk.

And Khamsin is a flame haze? I am at work at the moment so I cant rewatch the episode, but if I remember correctly he called himself an uhmm "accelerator" or something like that in season 1.

[Whitemoon648]

And Khamsin is a flame haze? I am at work at the moment so I cant rewatch the episode, but if I remember correctly he called himself an uhmm "accelerator" or something like that in season 1.

I belive so. He was able to fix disturbances in a huge area. He probably is not a strong fighter though. Remember all flame hazes were Tomogaras in the begining . There are diffrent kind of them. We have the fighter type like Sabrac, and techno guy like mad professor. I doubt the Prof. can acctually fight. Probably the same concept is at work here.

[Kristen]

What is that based on? :confused: Margery was older than Kazumi when she contracted with Marco, and I'm pretty sure she had experienced a lot more. Kazumi is still a virgin for one :uhoh:

I mean the real world, the one with torches and flame haze and Tomogara. Margery had only seen Silver at that time, while Kazumi has seen numerous fights and Tomogara.

In the end, Kazumi would start 1 foot ahead of Margery at the contracting phase.

[Skyfall]

In the end, Kazumi would start 1 foot ahead of Margery at the contracting phase.

And a whole lot of steps behind as far as suitable personality and motivation for such a task goes.

That aside, i am not even sure where this "debate" comes from, as i don't believe there is anything at all to indicate that Kazumi actually would have a chance of becoming one.

[Kristen]

And a whole lot of steps behind as far as suitable personality and motivation for such a task goes.

That aside, i am not even sure where this "debate" comes from, as i don't believe there is anything at all to indicate that Kazumi actually would have a chance of becoming one.

Actually, it makes you think. Yoshida Kazumi is willing to die for Sakai-kun, as she resolved to use that hougu if needed. Being able to die for someone, even if you don't know if you love them back, that's commitment. So, if she were to become a Flame Haze for Sakai-kun's sake, I think she is more than motivated. They could even throw in a cheesy "Love is a more powerful force than hate", showing why Shana and Kazumi are stronger Flame Haze than Margery.

There's an entire possibility of stories here of Kazumi the flame haze. The story of the girl who had incredible abilities at the start, thanks to her inner flame coming from love, a more powerful force.

I guess the debate comes from the similarities between Pheles's hougu devouring power of existance and contracts. Because Pheles basically enters Kazumi's body at that time and uses her past, present, and future.

[Sinestra]

Im wondering where the hell this speculation about Kazumi becoming a Flame Haze came from and what evidence is there to even support it? I have seen nothing to even suggest in anyway form or fashion that this could be an outcome. If she did sacrfiice herself for Yuuji then it would just be that a selfless sacrifice.

Although, im hoping it doesnt come to her having to use the the H of death to summon Pheles. Which sucks cause i really want to see Pheles at full strength kicking ass but i dont want to see Kazumi eat it

[Skyfall]

Actually, it makes you think. Yoshida Kazumi is willing to die for Sakai-kun, as she resolved to use that hougu if needed. Being able to die for someone, even if you don't know if you love them back, that's commitment. So, if she were to become a Flame Haze for Sakai-kun's sake, I think she is more than motivated. They could even throw in a cheesy "Love is a more powerful force than hate", showing why Shana and Kazumi are stronger Flame Haze than Margery.

There's an entire possibility of stories here of Kazumi the flame haze. The story of the girl who had incredible abilities at the start, thanks to her inner flame coming from love, a more powerful force.


I am not denying it would be possible for her to find such a resolve, however that does not translate to capabilities as flame haze. She may well have resolve to die for Yuuji, but can you picture her rushing towards an enemy, slashing them upside down with a sword and crushing their throats ? Thats what i am talking about - actual combat, which i believe she would be next to useless. She would be a third wheel ... which, admittedly, is not very different from now ^^ (though she would definitely get enhanced in this area i suppose)



I guess the debate comes from the similarities between Pheles's hougu devouring power of existance and contracts. Because Pheles basically enters Kazumi's body at that time and uses her past, present, and future.

Thats very very far fetched to say the least. As far as we know, Kazumi would die and Pheles would appear one way or another, which does not really open any doors to becoming a Flame Haze. Furthermore, becoming a flame haze implies contract with the Tomogara. Why would Pheles ever want to do that ? Why would any guze no ou want to contract her ?

[Kristen]

I am not denying it would be possible for her to find such a resolve, however that does not translate to capabilities as flame haze. She may well have resolve to die for Yuuji, but can you picture her rushing towards an enemy, slashing them upside down with a sword and crushing their throats ? Thats what i am talking about - actual combat, which i believe she would be next to useless. She would be a third wheel ... which, admittedly, is not very different from now ^^ (though she would definitely get enhanced in this area i suppose)

Well, if Kazumi were to be contracted by Pheles, she would probably not have a sword. If you think about it, Margery is big into Unrestricted Spells, and Wilhelemina is big into Ribbon battles. Kazumi wouldn't have to be depicted as someone with swords and crushing throats. Since Pheles is wind, Kazumi would probably be using a lot of wind based attacks, focusing her power of existance to slam enemies against walls or something. Pheles, from the little we've seen of her, to me looks like somebody who stays away from the action and fights from a distance, very similar to the personality I can see in Kazumi.




Thats very very far fetched to say the least. As far as we know, Kazumi would die and Pheles would appear one way or another, which does not really open any doors to becoming a Flame Haze. Furthermore, becoming a flame haze implies contract with the Tomogara. Why would Pheles ever want to do that ? Why would any guze no ou want to contract her ?

As far as we know, that is true. However, perhaps the Hougou is a contract device, and Pheles lied about it so that she could be sure that Kazumi is really comitted to it.
The reason as to why Pheles would want to make a contract with her is the similarities between them. Tomogara in some way or another have torn them from their love (Sabrac killing Johan, the world of Tomogara putting Yuji is an entirely different world), they both have fought for love, and they both just seeemed to "click".

[Sterling01]

Sabrac didn't kill Johan and sorry to break it to you Pheles hates Kazumi.

Also Pheles isn't strong enough to be a suitable Tomogara for a Flame Haze Contract.

[Skyfall]

Well, if Kazumi were to be contracted by Pheles, she would probably not have a sword. If you think about it, Margery is big into Unrestricted Spells, and Wilhelemina is big into Ribbon battles. Kazumi wouldn't have to be depicted as someone with swords and crushing throats. Since Pheles is wind, Kazumi would probably be using a lot of wind based attacks, focusing her power of existance to slam enemies against walls or something. Pheles, from the little we've seen of her, to me looks like somebody who stays away from the action and fights from a distance, very similar to the personality I can see in Kazumi.


Actually Pheles primarily uses her fists to fight, so that makes her very up and personal with the opposition. But thats not even the point - whatever power would it be, i can't for the life of me picture Kazumi actually using it to attack something, never mind kill. It doesn't matter what kind of power she has; if she can't utilize it to dispatch her enemies, she is a hindrance in battle. With Kazumi's personality i find it hard to imagine her being anything but pathetic in actual battle.


As far as we know, that is true. However, perhaps the Hougou is a contract device, and Pheles lied about it so that she could be sure that Kazumi is really comitted to it.
The reason as to why Pheles would want to make a contract with her is the similarities between them. Tomogara in some way or another have torn them from their love (Sabrac killing Johan, the world of Tomogara putting Yuji is an entirely different world), they both have fought for love, and they both just seeemed to "click".

Its still a very far fetch, and i can't see why Pheles would want to contract anything - that would only make her weaker and dependent on Kazumi, which is the last thing you want to depend on in combat.

Why would she want to contract Kazumi ? What is in it for her ? She isn't looking for a companion on whose shoulder to cry on (besides - she dislikes Kazumi). Nor is Johan fully dead as it seems, and she has her own agenda. Tomogoras (and Flame Haze) are out to kill. Basically with disregard for human life, as that is not their concern. Is Kazumi even remotely capable of that ? Is Pheles even concerned about keeping the world's balance, which is the purpose of Flame Haze ?

In the first place, as far as i can tell, Guze no Ou that form contracts are ones that are interested in keeping the world's balance, but are so strong that their direct presence alone disturbs it. (Alastor true form). That why they form contracts - so they could further their own agenda which would be impossible for them otherwise. They aren't looking for chat buddies. Since Pheles doesn't have those problems (which basically means she is weak compared to Alastor and probably the rest of Guze no Ou of the main cast) why would she have the even slightest of interests in a contract.

Contracts are formed because of need - both parties have an agenda they can't achieve otherwise. And there is no such need for Pheles. I am not even sure there is one for Kazumi, as i don't think she would throw everything away to keep tailing what she knows is unrequited crush.