Shakugan no Shana II - Overall Series Impressions & Total Series Rating [Archive]

minhtam1638

2008-03-28, 18:47

This will be my first review for a series within the season time-frame.

Watching Shana II on a week-by-week release basis really got me thinking about the possibilities that occur between each episode. After going through the journey along with my fellow Shana watchers in this thread, it really got me to think critically and analytically about the series as a whole. I enjoyed the arguments and agreements with each and every member in this forum as a whole, and I hope to do it again with other forums within other anime.

The first two episodes produced a great review of Shana I as a whole, incorporating a video game villain in the process. It also gave an initial view of the three primary characters in question, Yuji, Shana, and Kazumi. However, the Fumina Konoe arc gave the wrong impression to the new viewers - slice-of-life does not take the majority of Shana's storyline. Granted, character development was a question - the three primary characters took a step backward, but the secondary characters as well as the eventual Hecate took major steps forward.

The novel adaptation of Pheles, Sabrac, and Margery's past were almost perfect. The arcs were perfectly executed, except for the Pheles arc, which could have done better with the Johan-Pheles relationship. However, overall, the battles themselves were a bit bland. I attributed this to J.C. Staff's monetary issues, which were a problem throughout the whole series.

The ending was perfectly done, all the way to the final moments. I loved the final arc, and the resolve of Yuji fighting together with Shana - that was a perfect ending arc. However, I will have to say that the ending in itself gave way to some disappointment. Knowing the current status of the novels, I have to say it was a dangerous move J.C. Staff made in leaving a 3rd season possibility open. Yes, there is still one arc in particular that needs to be done, but with the novels having no guarantee of being completed, it is likely that J.C. Staff will have to rely on Louise's fanservice to make money with Zero no Tsukaima V before we ever see a Shana III.

Overall, I am giving this series a 9. The story was very original, but could have executed a little better. This anime does has its own flaws, but it can pretty much be rated an A- anime. The mistake I am pointing out here is that ending - they left it much more open than they did season I. Perhaps this is an attempt to make Shana a 72 episode series as a whole, but it hurts season II as a standalone season, therefore it is undeserving of a 10, even if it is Shana.

Deathscyther

2008-03-28, 19:28

Animation:
I like the character style very much. The animation as a whole was sometimes good and sometimes bad. It was very good during the most important episodes though.

8.5/10

Voice actors:
Love Shana's voice and Dantalion's voice. The others were good as well. The music throughout the season was superb. Certainly the best part of Shana II.

10/10

Script:
Although I don't like it that they strayed from the novels, the season was still pretty good in my opinion. The anime original story was pretty nice, although they could have handled it better in my opinion, especially the konoe arc. They didn't have enough episodes for the end, so they had to rush it too. But I liked most of the anime original episodes in the end, so no hard feelings. The canon parts were good.

8.5/10

Novel adaptation:
They used a lot of anime original material, but they did use some of the canon parts pretty good. They mixed some parts with the anime original stuff though.

7.5/10

Editing:
I liked the story and they handled it pretty well, although a bit too slow and the pacing was off somehow. I didn't like the open ending.

9/10

Overal: 9/10
Mostly because I just love the show. The season could have been better.

tripperazn

2008-03-28, 20:35

The music throughout the season was superb. Certainly the best part of Shana II.

That pretty much sums up my thoughts on Shana II, the soundtrack, especially Kawada's songs were on a whole other level. The second OP sequence is the only one I watch every time. The animation and direction is simply amazing, many frames are beautiful enough to be desktop wallpapers.

The beginning really, really, really killed it for me. I like Konoe just fine, along with all the other characters, but it's just too little stretched too far. As good as it got later, too little too late, like the last 5 episodes were very solid, which is something I can't say for the rest. Another ambiguous ending really lowered the rating, this show seems to hate definitively changing the status quo. The cast hasn't changed from the end of season one. Sure, Yuuji is no longer AS useless, and they know a few more Tomogara, otherwise it's same old.

Slice of Life is fine, IF somehow JC Staff boosts their characterization to the level of say, Minami-ke or Clannad or Spice and Wolf, I definitely wouldn't mind 12 episodes of that. Until then, Shana should remain balanced with action, IMO.

Aquifina

2008-03-29, 00:19

The series started out great for me, and then got into a rut when it obsessed over Shana's and Kazumi's jealousy regarding Konoe. But in the end, the Konoe arc was redeemed, and the series ended strong. Except for his obliviousness in the Konoe arc, Yuji remains one of my favorite male anime leads. He continues to act like the ordinary guy thrust into difficult circumstances, but who eventually figures things out. Yes, the screaming in terror during the Pheles scenes was a bit lame, but now that I think about it, that's a far more realistic portrayal of an ordinary person's reaction to that situation than for him to be all badass. And Yuji *does* eventually become pretty impressive, complete with a miscue where he overdoes it. It reminded me of his reactions to finding out that he was a torch in S1, which were also extremely well handled.

Shana and Kazumi become friends in what I thought was a realistic way, and Shana matures quite a bit as a whole. Which was nice to see. But she never completely loses her tsundere charm. Kazumi's angst was at times overplayed, but I'm willing to let that slide. And she still had her moments.

The rest of the supporting cast also did well, ranging from Ike's comic relief (and nice moment of spine) to Wilhemina playing the role of stressed-out mom of emotionally unstable teenager.

And the music was *awesome*.

Definitely my favorite series of the season, even though I also like Clannad and Gundam 00.

Malintex_Terek

2008-03-29, 22:33

I already gave my opinion in the Shana II 24 thread, but to summarize it here, this anime was a mess - it didn't look good, it was poorly written and thatched together like some kind of wet jigsaw puzzle - the background music was good, but the OP's (specifically the first) was some of the worst noise to ever come out of Japan, and the ED was uninspiring at best.

Overall? A very poor series; not quite as epic fail as ZnT II, but certainly one of the lower-tier shows of the last two seasons, on comparable grounds with generic trash like Goshuushou-sama Ninomiya-kun and Rosario + Vampire.

Kristen

2008-03-30, 09:03

So, since this is my Overall Series Thoughts, I'm going to judge it based on the series on a whole.

The first two episodes were just failures in mostly every single way. They had to come up with some way to show that their was a keeper on the Reiju Maigo, and the plot they came up with was sort of stupid. "It was all a dream" was kind of cliche as well.
After the first two came the absolutely disastrous Konoe Fumina arc. Honestly, if JC staff had skipped this in its entirety and make Shana 13 episodes long, I think there would be many more people liking the series. Honestly, almost every single week was a fillerish plot, and to add to that, they made a cliche filler episode with the Amusement park. Oh, the things that they could have done with that time instead.
Margery's story of the past was a nice break from the idiocy, though. So, that makes 2 absolutely terrible episodes, 8 horrible episodes, and 2 good episodes throughout the first half of the season. In other words, that part of the season was painful to watch, hence it gets a 1.

The second half of the season was an improvement. I personally didn't like 13, although everyone else seemed to love it. But 14 and 15 were good improvements, and made me start to realize Kazumi's true potential. Then they had the continual flashback to "If you really wish to be in Yuji's world, you will use this." Honestly, I think once or twice, and showing her a little emotional over it thinking if she would use it is a good thing. I think seven or eight times is a little over the top. But again, JC Staff probably didn't have enough material to cover and too many episodes, so they needed ways to fill in.
They also seemed to have a lot of "Yuji..." "Shana..." "Kazumi..." "Ike..." moments. Moments where someone says something dramatic or shocking, and the other character says the other person's name in a surprised fashion. If you don't know what I'm talking about, look at FMA for any time Alphonse says "Onii-chan..." Trust me, you'll find it at least once every minute. Back onto my ramble. They tended to overdramaticize quite a few moments in the series, and it became cringeful at points because of it.
The Sabrac arc, however, was absolutely amazing. Episode 21 in particular was just too amazing to comprehend, and was probably the best episode in either of the seasons. And when you add in the music they used, it was just too great of a storyline.
It fell again after episode 21. I didn't have much of a problem with episode 22, except that after all that effort with Sabrac, they made him somehow survive. That wouldn't have been a problem if they hadn't used the same plot twist 4 times in the series already. The first tomogara, that winged guy's clone in like episode 5, Pheles, Hecate. If a plot twist is overused, it becomes cliche and stupid.
And then the last two were really good. EXCEPT WHY DID YUJI PICK SHANA?

So, overall:
Half 1: 1
Half 2: 8
Average: 4.5
Penalty: -2
Overall: 2.5 BAD

The penalty is for Yuji not listening to his heart and picking Shana in the end. Yes, that choice is worth a 2 point deduction from me for the entire series.

Mgz

2008-03-30, 14:38

I really like the first Shana season because it was fresh, nice concept and therefore it was exciting for me. Also the romance is quite a nice touch too

the 2nd season is kinda weak in the romance because I know Shana and Yuji are together anyway, the flow between arc is a mess, not very coherent. OP and ED are not as good as the first one :(

6/10 because I were being generous.

Mai Kawasumi

2008-03-31, 00:29

Animation Quality: 7... I liked more the animation of the first season
Voice Actors: 10, I love them all, Kugimiya, Hino, Kawasumi, Itou
Script: 6, JC Staff please stop destroying the story of the novels
Adaptation from Game: I didn't play the game much :heh:

7 for me... decent anime

HayashiTakara

2008-03-31, 20:11

The show was decent... but the ending was pretty damn epic, Shana x Yuji kicking ass together, and the final scene with Yoshida crying, while Shana blushing happily, truly an ending to the season that I was hoping for!!!

9/10

BearShare

2008-03-31, 20:26

+OPs were awesome. Lots of development on the Reiji Maigo. PhelesxWilhelmina yuri scenes. Fight scenes were pretty good. Sabrac's badass~ness.

-Yoshida Kazumi. Major lacking of urusaix3. Slow first half. Fight scenes in the anime were nowhere near as good as they were in the OP animation. No one taught Shana how to make babies.

Final Verdict: Not good as the first season but still enjoyable.

Rating: 7.5/10
*Bumps to 8/10

KholdStare

2008-04-01, 00:33

Animation Quality: 10
Voice Actors: 10
Script: 3.141592654
Adaptation from Game: No clue, but shouldn't this be novel?
Editing: 2.718281829

Total Score: 6.5 => 7.0 (for the poll)

It was a rough ride from the very beginning, one that could not have been saved no matter how good the ending was. Actually, that was exactly it. The final episode was perfect (I gave it a 10/10), but the series was ruined from the start, never perfected the addition of Konoe into the storyline and failed at transitioning between romance and action. At the worst of the Konoe episodes, this series was averaging a 4/10 from me, below average. After Pheles's appearance to Sabrac's fight until the very end, my feelings wavered between 6-7/10, and all that the final episode did not do enough to get a 7. In short, I only half enjoyed this series. Watching the first half of it was almost like an obligation. I rated several episodes very low, but I also rated a lot of 10/10's for individual episodes. This just further on shows the series' inconsistency, and even though this series truly deserves a six, the final episode gave something truly amazing--a connection to Konoe.

If the series cut in half (or maybe more) the number of Konoe episodes and more into pretty much anything else, then it couple raised the score a notch. But still, the series end in a happy note, and it reciprocated to the Konoe arc, giving a meaning to Konoe's existence. I truly hope that the next season will be better, because this one was more or less disappointing.

Final score: 6/10, "Very Good"

10: Masterpiece
9: Excellent, memorable, and usually has some kind of personal impact
8: Very enjoyable, meaningful, and often addictive. Ratings of 8 or higher are considered exceptionally good.
7: Very good. Most anime I enjoy goes here.
6: Good, enjoyable. Most anime I watch starts here.
5: Average, kept my interest somewhat, but nothing too memorable.
4: Below average, watching it feels like an obligation.
3: Very bad, but I only watched it due to obligation. (if finished)
2: Painful, why did I watch this at all? (if finished)
1: Nightmare beyond words. Thankfully I've never rated anything this low.

For more info on my anime ratings please refer to the link in my signature.

And yes, I would like to comment how this series has some of the best background music I have seen. Maybe it wasn't the best, but it was most consistent, so that played a part in me not dropping the series and actually enjoying the battle scenes. Good job, J.C. Staff, even though I know you can do better.

Flibble

2008-04-01, 04:13

7/10
It was good fun, had moments of brilliance which pulled the score up dramatically without those few moments which justified the series this could have easily been a 4-5/10...
Started way too slowly, Konoe was dragged out...

I feel konoe was dragged out to such a degree so they could market her to the Moe obsessed sweaty palmed otaku that are currently being bred by the networks at an alarming rate ( Lol episode 1 of welcome to the NHK was correct XD ), with episode after episode adding nothing to the characters nor being entertaining... I like my cute characters but not as shallow as that...

Apart from those few moments the series didn't leave much of an impact, series 1 felt like a much more solid package, s2 only really seemed to get going in terms of plot and character development when pheles turned up...

In this time we saw development of wilhelemina who i had originally felt was one of the weakest roles in the show, aswell as some of the 1st times i've not wanted Kazami to piss off, aswell as tanaka and Keisaku being developed alot more into fully rounded characters.

I feel shana s2 improved greatly in the 2nd half...

tabun

2008-04-01, 04:57

I pretty much agree with what mintham2448 said; however, compared to season 1, I am not as generous as he is.

I was very protective of the tedious Konoe-arc, not hoping, but expecting it to pay off later in the show. And that was it? This one moment, turning point though it may be, was not worth all those episodes.

I will thus give it 6/10 pts. Had the above arc been half its length, a 9 would not have been out of the question, but hey -.-

Sun Shine

2008-04-01, 05:30

I gave it a 6, the first half of the series dragged on so much, it was rather boring especially with the love triangle and Konoe stuff. It picked up in the latter half though and it just annoyed me they didn't give Silver enough screen time after what it was built up to be. In the end this series achieved little and I hope the next series is the last one eith proper conclusions. To be honest if I hadn't already watched the first series I would have ditched this.

BigGimp77

2008-04-01, 09:37

+ Solid Voice Acting (I really enjoy Rie Kugimiya [Shana] for some reason lol)
+ BGM was pretty good
+Yuji broke a dudes neck with his bare hands
+/- Mediocre animation
-Bad fillers
-Horrible pacing
-Kazumi doesn't die
-Not enough Urasai Urasai Urasai's

Let's just say that I did not enjoy this second installment of Shana very much. It started off slow with some boring slice of life stuff. Here's a tip for JC Staff: If you don't have good writers who can make interesting slice of life filler episodes then don't attempt them. JC Staff completely butchered the script and pacing.

The action was few and far between, that is until the end of the season. But even then the action felt rushed. I watched episode 24 and the fight scenes were moving so fast I couldn't see what was going on in some of them.

But hey... if there isn't that much action its ok right? Shana isn't a pure action show so we can let that slide a little. Unfortunately the romance in SnS II was lacking big time. The love triangle became painful to watch. They really beat this triangle to death, but you figured they would end it real good at the end of the season right? Nah, all we get a smile from Shana during the end credits that suggest Yuji went to her.

SnS II defiantly had some good moments. But overall is was a pretty mediocre season. This wasn't as bad at the ZnT II butchering. However, I've lost hope for JC Staff.

Overall Score: 6.6/10 (I voted 6 on the poll. SnS II doesn't deserve a 7 on a scale of 1-10)

Owaranai Destiny

2008-04-01, 12:52

Ahh...Found the thread.

Overall? A very poor series; not quite as epic fail as ZnT II, but certainly one of the lower-tier shows of the last two seasons, on comparable grounds with generic trash like Goshuushou-sama Ninomiya-kun and Rosario + Vampire.

Off Topic: I beg to differ. R+V was truly trash in the realms of storytelling and pacing mainly because it focused on the sappy and cheesy friendship bonding through the little squabbles and big fights and FANSERVICE. Just to make an opinion on it. ;)

Back on Topic:

It's hard to actually give the series a proper evaluation, mainly because of the hype in the first place, and with it duly came comparisons and comparisons. First to the good (Season I), then as it apparently goes downhill, the bad (ZnT II). Not that I can decide for others what they think is good or bad, but in my opinion, Season II was a letdown to those who wanted to see something better than Season I, that's for sure. Whether it's as good (bad) as ZnT II is rather debatable.

First Impressions: Obviously due to the hype, the optimism goes up for me and stays there for a while although it dips a little during the Konoe arc. Fodder for enemies? Hey, there's Balle Masque and the acclaimed Sabrac. Episodes supposedly going nowhere? Who knows, J.C. Staff might throw a curveball near the end with Konoe's existence and appearance.

The Glitter Fades: What I didn't realise at that time was that they chose to delve into Margery's past, Ike's self-pitying as well as Wilhelmina's almost pointless (but still amusing) honing of culinary skills. It was starting to feel tiring and mundane, because SnS I had been known for it's fancy with fantasy, action and cliffhangers. I'm not immune to resorting to comparison even though I don't really like it. The Konoe arc began to feel draggy and up to episode 8 there was no notable action at all, and even in episodes 8 to 9, that was in the past.

Engine Revived: Things began to pick up due to the appearance of Kantarou and Pheles. Being spoilt by the novels, that usually means a lot to the viewer who has known of them. Together with the fact that Konoe's appearance apparently had some small meaning to it, the appearance of the Engage Link and the showing of Balle Masque, things looked to be exciting. I would consider this to be one of the better parts of the entire season, because most of the stuff here did not feel contrived or out of place because of subtle hints being dropped here and there (about Pheles appearing, about Konoe's reason for being close to Yuuji and co. etc).

Final Lap: While some people consider episodes like 16, 17 and 22 to be relatively boring due to the fact that it focuses more on the sidestories with Eita especially, I actually quite like the 'calm before the storm' episodes, where we see how the recent events have truly affected most of the main cast from school. Everyone's obviously shaken, but it's how they react that makes things a little more interesting.

However, hyped up episodes such as the Sabrac encounter and more notably the last two episodes were somewhat disappointing, something akin to watching a balloon getting almost blown to it's full proportion, then someone makes a small hole in it and it slowly deflates. Explosions were too overwrought to the point of being DBZ-ified or Bleach-ified. Perhaps the animators had too much time on their hands. Ultimately, the resolution of the much talked about love-triangle was ambiguous and ultimately unconventional in that we don't see the usual solutions to a love triangle here.

Now for the Positives:
Plus:
-Character change and development. Not one single character stayed the same from Season I, and most, if not all had viable reason to change (e.g. Shana being more dere, Eita leaving that world behind him due to his insecurities and powerlessness, Wilhelmina being more understanding, Yuuji becoming more GAR and getting an iron resolve).

-Music: First OP was very appropriate together with the first ED. It helps that they are both quite catchy in tune. I had doubts about the second OP at first, but it does grow on you if you give it a chance and keep listening to it. the second ED simply reminded me of the first in the pace of the tune and the atmosphere it supposedly generates, except for the part near it's chorus where it becomes more...upbeat (for the lack of a better word). On the whole, though, it's simply different tastes and chance-giving that determines whether the songs make watching the series a better experience or not. ;)
IMO, the BGMs and insert songs were pretty good, probably good enough to remind people of the Season I's music.

-Humor: While SnS never based it's focus on humor, I thought it did pretty well for a mixed-genre show. Wilhelmina's War of the Foods, Shana's "Making Babies" and various reactions from a bevy of characters you'd never expect them to react in that certain way, i.e. Alastor and Chigusa.

*For notable mention, I quite like the usage of cliffhangers as always, especially during the Pheles arc. They were quite well done in that it acutally didn't feel contrived.

For the Bad...
Minus
-Pacing: The mother of all problems in Season II. There are in effect a lot of 'Ifs' if (there's one already) the pacing hadn't been screwed up. Examples include Konoe's arc and the smaller issues such as Ike's girl troubles and the slice-of-life periods. While Konoe's arc was supposedly justified by how Hecate reacted in the last episode, it still felt cheap to the general viewer, who would feel cheated. The ending also felt extremely rushed all the way till Kazumi welcoming them back. IMO, most of the negatives for SnS II can be attributed to the horrid handling of pace.

-Characters: First two Tomogaras gave me the impression that we needed some of those in action to pass some time, while Sabrac was somewhat disappointing mainly because of overwrought usage of power (he may have been toying with them, but after his dialogue with Bel-Peol in episode 22...) and being too wordy. I think it's fair, though, to consider that he acts differently when approaching important targets, and this time his objective was not to assassinate.
Margery Daw, for ending up as a side character in the battle for the Reiji Maigo. Even so, the Silver which was her greatest objective was in there, and I daresay that J.C shafted her for some supposed mentor-student teamwork and a YuujixShana moment. I can't help but think back that Rammie's words were almost forgotten, but bah, poor pacing rules again.
Flame Hazes, or the good guys in general, for making Balle Masque and Sakai Yuuji look like geniuses.

-Action: Despite it being a key attraction of the series, the action failed in being overwrought (the overly big explosions a la Bleach/DBZ). to be fair, some of it was pretty okay due to Yuuji's showing off of his newfound abilities (which were not so powerful and in effect, no huge explosions). In other cases such as the Sabrac fight and the final two episodes with Hecate, Syndonay, Wilhelmina and Shana, I'm highly skeptical that that will be what one calls 'exemplary'.

-Animation: Inconsistency. Some of the episodes were not good, though a few others, including the overwrought fights did get the thumbs-up from me.

Things I found 'OK':
Plot: Wasn't stellar, but I would say that it didn't really mess up everything because it still focused on the Reiji Maigo and it's holder all the way till the end.

Overall Impression: Didn't meet my expectations, didn't qualify well enough to be compared to even Season I, but on the whole it was a rather enjoyable experience and a good watch. Just for fun, I'll rate this a 7.4/10, effectively rounding it down to a 7. Unfortunate, J.C. Staff, but I'll remain optimistic in consideration of a possible third season, that they will learn from their mistakes here and stop with the messing up of pace.

Peace out. :)

Triple_R

2008-04-01, 19:37

The animation quality and voice acting for this anime was incredible. Very well-casted Japanese voice actors, and superb animation quality (particularly during action scenes).

Plot-wise, the anime meandered and slowed down a bit too much in the first half. Just one too many slice-of-life episodes, and at least one too few action-oriented episodes, during the first half of the anime.

However, I have no significant complaints about the second half of the anime, and I was thoroughly pleased with the first few Pheles-oriented episodes, the Yuji becomes a man/Sabrac arc, and the final arc.

I will say, though, that episode 24 is a bad ending unless we get more anime Shana. So, my total series rating of 9/10 is dependent on there being more anime Shana. With out there being more anime Shana, this second season would only rate a 8/10 or even a 7/10 for me.

However, I have a strong feeling that there will be more anime Shana, so Shana II gets a 9/10 for me (a point lost for the overabundance of slice-of-life in the first half of the anime).

rainnydaiis

2008-04-01, 22:38

The quality of the animation and sound is no doubt one of the best. But story plot wise and how it advanced is in what I would call average. Seeing as season 1 left us off with a cliffhanger, now season 2 will definitely lead into season 3 seeing as bel masque isn't even done with their schemes seeing as they seem to have something else planned out. I just think they shouldn't break it off into seasons but rather just make it a continuous anime like naruto or bleach.

I gave it a 8 out of 10 because even if there was a lot more romance schenes than actual plot, besides the plot of the love between shana and yuji.

Darknemo2000

2008-04-02, 03:01

While I am willing to complain about JC Staff not following novels (but hey, when did they ever followed novels?) I still cannot see this season as something bad.

It is not as bad as ZnT II and for that we should be thankful I think. We do not have a 12 episode rushed crap where we do not even know who the main characters are due to some side characters stealing all the focus where the main plot advances only in two last epsiodes where they put in 4 novel books.

We do not have an character who no one ever heard of before appearing out of nothing and solving everything in two last minutes and giving you an idiotic ending.

Instead we have pretty solid flow of the story with character development. yet the pacing, espacially in the first half was off. Yet it still could be worse.

Romance aspect was done pretty poorly even if it was one of the main focus (due to slice-of life) in this season. Action wasn't that great either.

VA was as great as ever. And the mediocre animation sometimes showed the potential.

Yes it could have been better if it would have followed the novels, but again it could have been worse in ZnT II kind of way.

So all and all, I am still giving this season a solid 8.

Not as good as SnS1 but not as bad as some other JC Staff productions.

Solais

2008-04-02, 10:41

Ok, I watched ep 23 and 24. They were great.

Final impression: Well, it was a pretty decent series. If the genres would had been balanced well, if the episodes would had been broadcasted in different order, it would had been an awesome series. Now it's just 8/10 for me, and just another check in my list.

mir

2008-04-02, 11:41

Well, I for one really enjoyed the Konoe arc. It helped develop Hecate's character to the point where I could see her being a major part of season 3. I only wish they would've had her put on the white mage outfit earlier (like during the festival event, Shana's reaction would've been hilarious I bet). Some see it as slow, I think it was the correct move. Show would've lost much if it was 24 straight episodes of "Oh doomsday is upon us!" The Konoe arc gave us a viable character, helped keep the action fresh and set up future events. What more can you ask from it >.>

Overall though, I think it was a good series. Music and va's were great for the most part, even though I never came to enjoy the 2nd OP. Stuff like Margery's entrance in the Sabrac does score high marks with me.

Animation...better than most of the stuff coming out. Yeah some spots could've probably used more fluff, but they did a good job when it mattered. Can't say I'm displeased with it.

As for the script, I am glad the show did not follow the novels to the letter. Using them as guidelines is great, but it's not such a terrible thing to stray away. Yes, the ending felt a bit rushed, probably could've used an extra episode, or at least another 10 minutes at the end but oh well. It did leave the door open to a new season and that's good.

Overall, 8.5. It had its positive sides, some negatives (yuuji screaming...that irked me quite a bit), but it wasn't a bad show. Worked for me at least....

Goshin

2008-04-03, 09:02

This season was aright IMO. the first thing that pissed me me off was the first episode where kazumi shows up with the same bs, me and shana shared the same emotion of wtf. I tried my best to enjoy the rest of the series. got really pissed by the fact that every time shana is going to confess to yuji some shit happens. i haven't read the novels :( (cause i can't find them) so i can't compare it.

Xellos

2008-04-03, 11:24

Finally got around to finishing the season.

The Good:

- Like a lot of other people, I enjoyed the music in this one more than season 1, which is no mean feat. I especially loved the first OP and how they fit it in throughout the series.

- Yuji actually becoming cool. Having a non-pathetic male lead is always a +1 in my book. It's especially nice when you see them evolve from Shinji-esque to Kamina-esque.

- Shana's expression at the end of the last episode! This alone may prompt me to vote for her against my other favorites (sorry, Kagami) in ISML.

- The action was pretty good when they finally got around to it.

The Bad:

- The first half of the season. Honestly, they could've compressed down to a few episodes. I like rabu kome, but get rid of the Ike amusement park episode. I mean he's hardly a presence as it is anyways. This show wasn't meant to be a slife of life/school drama. The Fumina arc dragged on way too long and wasted time and resources that could've been spent elsewhere...namely my next issue.

- The plot and execution. I've only read the first two novels so I'm not sure how much the series actually deviates from the canon. However, the whole idea of making a giant Tomogara just seems random. That wouldn't bother me except that there's not enough backstory for it...it just seems to pop out of the blue. A lot of this, of course, lies in the poor execution done by JC Staff. The first half took too long to do what it needed to do. Which in turn left too little time to properly set up the plot for the second half. Also, I thought the Silver getting mind fucked by a memory was somewhat ridiculous.

- No satisfying antagonists. I was pumped by anticipation for Pheles, but that turned out to be somewhat unsatisfying. The episodes with Sabrac were kinda cool, but we saw too little of him imo. I was hoping to see more direct confrontation with Balle Masque more than anything else. When it actually happened, it was pretty awesome though.

- Kazumi: Idk if she's any better in the novels, but please stop talking. JC staff had my hopes up when they animated her dissappearing in the final episode. It'd be perfect for that meme pic of the four dudes sitting around in one frame and then all excited in the next.

Conclusion: They had so potential for season 2, but it got bungled. I still enjoyed the series (partly due to my Shana-ism), but it was definitely a downer compared to season one. I'm hoping for a movie, OAV, or even a season 3 to give some redemption.

Overall rating: 7/10

Flibble

2008-04-03, 13:29

Kazumi: Idk if she's any better in the novels, but please stop talking. JC staff had my hopes up when they animated her dissappearing in the final episode. It'd be perfect for that meme pic of the four dudes sitting around in one frame and then all excited in the next.

Ok not really a 4koma but nm lol...
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/9554/69307586cc8.jpg

Tbh, this mirrors the series, started off poorly, got better, then improved even more, then had a questionable rushed ending...

Although saying that i really enjoyed episode 24, however the silver was an amazing anti-climax, and it didn't really feel like the end of a series, maybe because i'd felt the series had not long started to heat up...

Xellos

2008-04-03, 13:39

Flibble that is amazingly epic and exactly what I had in mind. Concur that the image reflects the anime. They could've salvaged the series a bit if they tacked on a few more episodes to flesh out the ending better.

Anyways +1 for the image :D

Highlygifted

2008-04-03, 18:30

I just picked up the series two days ago, and I'm now done with all episodes. From what I see, season 2 seems too stitched together. It lacks anything other than some development, and I would like to see the development be put into use. The whole first half of SnS II made me wanna drop it, but it gradually saved itself. The ending however, was too rushed, and generally, made the season look incomplete. However, I did indeed enjoy it even through the sub-par ending, so I guess a 8/10 is in order despite the flaws it holds.

DX HBK

2008-04-04, 22:45

Well, the season seemed okay but I guess the entire Shakugan no Shana anime seemed close to its end. I'll end this with a bit of closure. When the time comes and the value of the series becomes only memory, the J.C. Staff will one day have to take Shana out to the back of the woodshed and put her out of her misery. And when that day comes, she'll be given a chance to fly for the last time before they cock the rifle and blast her out of the sky.

Guido

2008-04-06, 03:28

Overall score: 89.53%

+
Yuuji grew strong to cast Fuzetsu, Unrestricted spells, attacking with Flame, and wielding the Blutsaüger with ease.

Yuuji backed up Shana in the last battle for this season.

Shana openly admitted that she loves Yuuji.

Shana personally trained Yuuji.

The epilogue openly hints that Yuuji chose Shana.

The rest of the characters grew up and move to their separate ways.

Phele's arc put the show back on track.

Sabrac rules.

-
One quarter of the series was spent on Konoe Fumina, which severely slowed down the story's progression.

Most of the new Tomogara, which made appearances in this season, are affiliated to the Bal Masque. We need new bad guys.

All Bal Masque survives again.

Kazumi bitching about her own uselessness when she should just had use the hougu, then die.

Game8910

2008-04-06, 19:35

The good

- Yuji is developed very nicely from his season 1 counterpart
- Shana is moe, its a fact
- Battle scenes were IMO better than in season 1
- The music and BGM were really really good, I loved them all
- Yuji starts to return some of Shana's feelings
- Sabrac made this season epic win
- Pheles was also really cool character
- Yoshida gets dumped ftw

The Bad
- Konoe Fumina
- IMO 2 episodes were wasted completely (ep 5: Wilhelmina learns to cook and ep 7: Amusement Park)
- Ike did nothing in the end
- Yoshida still lives
- could have mixed the character dev and battles better

Overall even though I found the first half of the season kinda dull in comparison to the first after ep 13 this show became so good it just made me forget about the other episodes....I ended loving this season just as much as the first so I can't give it anything below 10/10

newby

2008-04-09, 12:12

lol this series was ok for me but it was worse compared to the 1st season.

the VAs were great, especially rie kugimiya (shana) haha. seeing yuuji become strong is also part of the pluses of this season.

however the season was too draggy already. the konoe arc was dragged for such a long time, and the ike amusement park was irrelevant. the quality was ok only.
the battles werent tt nice as well.

overall i found the season rather enjoyable cuz its still shana, but it could have been better if it sticked to the novels.

-Ton-

2008-04-11, 07:02

Like many others, I hated the Konoe arc. After developing Konoe's character so much, she just "melted" away in a blink of an eye. And the amusement park episode was just to provide some comic relief. Poor insignificant Ike, I wouldn't even have noticed him if not for that episode.

However, I enjoyed the fast-paced action in the second half of the season, where the endless battles and great artwork captivated me. Although the ending seemed slightly rushed, I am definitely looking forward to S3.

Overall: 8/10

ForgedGlory

2008-04-11, 07:06

Ok not really a 4koma but nm lol...
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/9554/69307586cc8.jpg

Tbh, this mirrors the series, started off poorly, got better, then improved even more, then had a questionable rushed ending...

Although saying that i really enjoyed episode 24, however the silver was an amazing anti-climax, and it didn't really feel like the end of a series, maybe because i'd felt the series had not long started to heat up...

Best pic ever! lol, I laughed a little too hard at this one XD :heh:

DX HBK

2008-04-14, 22:07

Triple_R

2008-04-15, 08:24

Fight scenes got a bit better at the end compared to the middle of the season but the characters aren't even performing up to the level expected based on their combat potential. The only exception would be anything involving Sabrac, which stands as the top point.

Anyways, Shana and Wilhelmina could've done better against Hecate and Sydonay after gaining some more flash from the battle against Sabrac.

Shana: Same old sword slashing and close-range range combat without being creative. What ever happened to using long-range fire attacks or try disarming your foe?

Wilhelmina: Those tricks and tactics used against Sabrac could've been worthy equalizers. And they call you the Specialist of Everything in the English dub...

Tactical error: Did not fight to their full potential, which could've also wrecked part of the Statue of Pride. Should've tried that in addition to using the Statue of Pride in detering the Balle Masque resistance. An advantage not fully utilized.

Hecate: If I had a Winchester 300 Sniper rifle, I could've blasted you out of the sky in the time you flew around between engagements against Shana. If that's all you got for grappling skills, I could beat you blindfolded.

Sydonay: I don't know if either this guy's fantasies about Hecate or activities that center on molesting Yuji has toned his skills. Big spear attacks that could be seen a mile away. Why not transform into your chimera form if you wanted to kill Flame Haze?

I think that when Shana fights with Yuji's safety being first and foremost on her mind, her emotions tend to run a bit wild, and she's governed by raging charges and sword blitzes moreso than by cool and calm tactical precision. The positive is that her attacks are probably a bit faster, and perhaps rushing adrenaline also makes her attacks more powerful. The negative is that there's not much thought put into her attacks.

I was actually very impressed with Hecate's close quarters combat with Shana - Hecate keeps up with her speed-wise, and matches her move for move.

Hecate and Sydonay were in a defensive position for the fight, and hence took the same sort of approach that a savvy NHL goalie does against a shooter coming down on him on a breakaway - wait him out, move with him, let him make the first move, and then match it.

Remember, Hecate and Sydonay didn't have to eliminate Shana and Wilhelmina - they just had to stave them off until the Statue of Pride was ready, and then let the Statue do its thing.

So, their defensive strategy and posture made sense to me. Sydonay could have perhaps fought smarter, but I felt that Hecate was excellent, and I think that you're being way too critical of her here. I don't really expect Hecate to be Kurt Angle... :heh:

I agree with you on Wilhelmina, however. She wasn't anywhere near as effective as she was against Sabrac.

Silverwyrm

2008-04-16, 00:49

I agree with you on Wilhelmina, however. She wasn't anywhere near as effective as she was against Sabrac.

yea sabrac fight brought out alot of things wilhelmina could have done that I never knew, but then she went back to the "same ol' tactic" after that, hope I get to see her really trying again sometime :p

sorrowsiren

2008-05-12, 21:00

I rather liked season 1 but this show got the dragon ball Z virus.. I seriously hope there's no 3rd season now...

Edit: Sorry, I use term "DBZ virus" to describe shows that use too much filler and drag nearly zero content through several episodes with nothing resolving.

This was way to dragged out for how little actually happens... If they had compacted it to 12 episodes it would have been so much better, well, it still would have been mediocre, but much better none the less..

I watched all 24 episodes, but I totally gave up on this show after episodes 3-7 that focus completely on the jealousy subplot... for over 3 episodes it's nothing but 2 stupid anime stereotypes that can't figure out "what this hot feeling in their chest" is.... I really just wished that the plot would resolve and move somewhere.

Actually saying this I think this entire show suffered badly from way to much stereotypical anime indecisive character syndrome.

oompa loompa

2008-05-25, 05:45

I actually enjoyed the second season quite a lot. admittedly, i didnt like the first 13 episodes, but it picked up quite well after that. I am quoting this , Im not quite sure from where, but ' Shakugan no shana always provides you with a little more than you expect '. this is pretty much true for the second season. Shana does not provide anything revolutionary or spectacular, and certainly nothing that will change your life. Having said that, it has a solid plot, solid protagonists, and some great villains. It scores high on epic points, and there is certainly room to take it a long way. its a very enjoyable watch, the last 6 episodes of the show were great, especially the sabrac episodes, and the last scene before the credits in the last episode, where hecate messes up. it was a good way to end a season, rather than the ol ' main character suddenly powers up and wins. the episodes always start great, cos of the kickass op's ( i think shanas the only show where ive liked all the op's). It manages to kick off again just when it seems like its beginning to drag, and never gets you bored enough to leave it. a solid show, and id love to see another season of it, even two, if the plot develops in an interesting direction ( which, according to the way the novels are going, will)

My only regret is not seeing more hecate XD

Sotobrastos

2008-06-10, 02:02

The first 12 episodes... after watching the first season in two days, the first few episodes of season two were very jarring, simply because the first season had such a nice hectic pace. But after Pheles enters the picture, the series picked up, and I enjoyed it to the end.

Did anyone think that in the end, the footsteps disappear because Yuji with Shana, or Shana by herself, flew away?

Onchuu_Norin

2008-06-10, 09:01

For me, Shakugan no Shana (first season) was very entertaining with the whole plot with substitute souls "torches" are placed into bodies who have already lost their soul. I was disappointed at first after finishing the first season, but the second season was worth the wait. This anime is packed with action, romance, and a bit of comedy here and there. :heh:

othera

2008-10-10, 02:29

This series was AWSOME.

The ending was no match for season 1, but i loved this.

10/10

kim8268

2008-10-21, 12:59

well somekind of excelent nor perfect because of the ending is still bugging me
I gonna ask if the novel's ending was the ending of season 2 in the anime

othera

2008-10-24, 11:32

well somekind of excelent nor perfect because of the ending is still bugging me
I gonna ask if the novel's ending was the ending of season 2 in the anime

No, the novels go in a bit diffrent way from what ive heared(There are many small change and some major) and they go further into the story - so they go beyond the end of season 2(I aint sure how much further they are)
I heard yuji disappears or something... Read the shakugan no shana novel thread if you wanna find out what happens

Raiyushi

2008-11-29, 00:35

Overall I rated the season itself 7/10 because the 2nd Season was pretty good, but I don't feel it was satisfying and I didn't like how it deviated from the novel quite a bit.

Biggest problem and disappointment with Season 2 I believe is the first 7 episodes... I don't think the Light Novels really spent that long introducing Konoe Fumina, who in the end is absorbed for the Silver anyways... What KyoAni could've probably done is shorten that to 3 Episodes and that leaves 4 episodes of free space where they could've instead brought in SnH Yuji into the picture instead of killing the Silver for a quick end and left Season 2 at a cliffhanger where SnH Yuji kidnaps Shana, or even leave it at him beating on Shana and pick it up in Season 3 where he kidnaps her.

On a plus note. I loved the first OP with JOINT, and music was great as expected.

kawaii_mg

2008-11-30, 02:12

the story is kinda disappointing

kyon.haruhi.suzumiya

2008-12-08, 08:47

I actually thought SnSII did better than SnS, if only by that bit, nonetheless, it was a great series, but still, it has one or two shortcomings that it needs to fulfill:

The theme songs all sound VERY similar, for some reason.
The ending, it doesn't feel like an ending, it feels like an opening to another plot curve, so that's where I'm waiting to see if there's going to be a SnSIII, after all there's already 16 volumes. 17's on its way.

Still, a 9 for a great series overall.

II am quoting this , Im not quite sure from where, but ' Shakugan no shana always provides you with a little more than you expect '. this is pretty much true for the second season.

I know, it's ANN's review of DVD Vol 2 (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/review/shakugan-no-shana/dvd-2).

I heard yuji disappears or something... Read the shakugan no shana novel thread if you wanna find out what happens

No, it's actually
In Vol. 16, Yuji defeats Shana and kidnaps her away to the Seireiden. I hope they have hawt sex.;)

Appurukami

2009-03-08, 16:15

I found season 2 to be very good so I threw it an 8/10.
A lot of people complained about the first 16 episodes being too slowly paced and lacking in action but without developing Kanoe the rest of the series would make absoloutely no sense what so ever. The only real complaint I have is the lack of development in Pheles and Johan's relationship. Its kinda hard to explain but they were meant to be madly in love with each other but it just didnt show through.
Apart from that I really liked season 2 (the first half just as much as the second) and would say it definately lived up to my expectations after seeing the first season.

Ryuou

2009-03-12, 03:37

but without developing Kanoe the rest of the series would make absoloutely no sense what so ever.
The problem is she shouldn't have been there in the first place though.

I guess since I haven't done so (even though it's kind of past the point where it matters); I was disappointed with the second season compared to the first. For me, it wasn't as good. But I look forward to the 3rd season that's supposedly coming out, and the craziness that’s to come (if it's not screwed up via JC Staff magic), which I unfortunately spoiled myself with.

Raiga

2009-03-12, 07:45

They should have handled Kanoe the way they did in the Shana-tan shorts.

"... We should kill her."
"Yeah."

The first half of the series was kind of slow, and I really didn't like Kanoe, not just for wasting time but also for her character itself. But I loved the rest of the series, especially the Sabrac arc (which they ought to have ended on, or cut down on the first seven episodes and properly developed the last arc).

And I'd watch anything with Shana in it. =D

Ryuou

2009-03-12, 15:34

Yeah pacing and time allotment were probably the things that bothered me the most about the second season. But there were some really nice parts in it. Sabrac was tight, and the twist with Yuuji and Silver was surprising. How they handled most of the season though (including those two aspects), could have used work though. But it’s been a while since I’ve seen it and I should probably get around to a rewatch before I start criticizing it, more.

I will say though, my initial watch through of the second season made me think I may not buy the second season. Which is a hard thing to accept as this is my favorite series.

Justin Kim

2009-03-26, 04:42

Kanoe was entirely annoying throughout the second season for me, and I have to concur with Ryuou. The pacing was a little slow, and their were a bunch of side - stories that seemed pointless, although they did improve character progression it just belatedly dragged the season along. Almost seemed like an entire filler, except the part where Shana and Kanoe were dressed in Yukata's for the festival. I loved the ending, it was a nice twist - but unfortunately that was only for the people who haven't read the light novels produced, I suspected / predicted that to happen.

Helm

2009-05-22, 06:47

How disappointing. I mean the over all plot.

Archon_Wing

2009-06-23, 20:34

Now that Shana III is coming, I might as well remind myself of this series. ;) When I voted on this poll last year, I had given it a 5 with in retrospect was a bit too harsh. It was more of a knee jerk reaction due to rage and disappointment. But surely if something is below average to me, I wouldn't go back and rewatch parts of it? To me, it's a very mixed series and thus hard to rate.

The first two episodes were filler but still very entertaining. It had a nice "welcome back" feeling to them. Unfortunately, Kazumi for some reason got more and more annoying, and she didn't really seem to grow as a character. It just got really repetitious with the triangle stuff and we just got constantly reminded over and over again that Yuji is indecisive (At least Ike has the good sense to call him out on it), Shana's kinda just herself, and it became impossible to give a damn.

I won't complain too much about the Konoe arc just because it's a dead horse by now. They really could have drew her a little more diffrent though. :D

Then we skip to Margery's little flashback, which was kind of cool. Though I was wondering what the hell was the point of this story? Well, we learn why Margery prefers to be a loner. Nice, though maybe a bit aimless at times.

So the series randomly flies around for a bit as "The Melancholy of Shana" But eventually we got to the moment everyone was waiting for-- Pheles. This part was very well done not just because of the very cool music, but because Pheles being so weak was actually part of a plot twist. She really showed herself to be a cold-hearted selfish bitch and that made her one of the most interesting villains that showed up. Even Yoshida gets a bit less annoying as she contemplates more interesting things like her role in the story instead of whatever the heck she was babbling about before.

The series cools down into more slice of life, but unlike the Konoe Arc, this part remains very intresting. Keisaku wants to stay with Margery while Eita wants to live a normal life away from all these dangers especially since he has fallen in love. I mean if you were an ordinary person stuck in a situation like this, how would you react? The exploring of these two side characters is excellent. It's great when the story stops taking itself for granted and explores how people should react.

Shana II raises the bar for character development even more, as Yuji stops being less idiotic and snaps someone's neck. That in itself is enough to redeem his character as he finally makes a decision. Everyone drops the BS and moves on to what they want to do. I consider the part between Pheles and Sabrac to be the best part of the series.

Not that the fight against Sabrac wasn't cool, as Wilhelmina gives one of the best fights ever. For some reason I didn't like the part when Joint played. The song is great, but made it kind of cheesy since that makes it predictible. But still, a great fight where every major character is utilized is hard to find these days. None of this "leave him to me" 1v1 BS. He's a threat, and kick his ass!

Now if the series just ended here, I might have just given it 8-9 (I think season 1 is an 8) Unfortunately the episodes after this were lackluster with the annoying triangle thing coming back and nobody seeming to learn anything. Sabrac's not really dead, making the last part entirely pointless, but whatever. Though the moment when Shana asks Yoshida about a baby is funny as hell. The Bal Masque crew for some reason just seems horribly not intimidating in the last part and the fights were pretty anticlimatic. It also seemed too similar to last season's ending but even less cool. And then it just ends. The part when "sense" plays is nice to wrap the series up

Overall: 7/10 ---> Horrid start and extremely unsteady near the end, Shana II is not a trainwreck. After all, the best fights in this season were more exciting than the ones in the first. Shana II at its best is dramatic and exciting, helping advance character development. At its worst, it's extremely boring and aimless. I'm not really sure if it's that much worse than the first season as I had orignally thought as I feel these problems were always there, but they just get triggered more here. I would recommend skimming the first 12 episodes to get the gist of it, and enjoy the second half.

digger314

2009-06-30, 04:14

I liked it because I liked season 1. Much of the plot is pretty painful. They really milked the love triangle dry. It was just irritating because it's obvious what the intended pairing is. But the latter half wasn't too bad. The plot moved quicker. In fact maybe a bit too quickly and should have been spread out more. Still enjoyable though. I really like the characters and music. The better animation quality was a plus too.

Qilin

2009-09-12, 04:19

I'll give this a 7/10 since I don't bother finishing anything that comes below that.
If it weren't for that really long and tedious first half, I could have given an 8 or 9 instead. Such a shame. The action was certainly engaging, although they could have spread it over a few more episodes. Another good point is that I hardly got to hear Shana's favorite (annoying) catchphrase. You know what I'm talking about.

I really liked the character development they had going in the series. Shana and Kazumi's relationship evolved to being friendly rivals from just being jealous of each other. A good sign of maturity. Yuji, himself, gained a couple of levels of badass wielding a rather impressive BFS. an impressive change given that he used to be a damsel in distress. A few other characters managed to make a resolution after finding their own paths.

Disregarding the 1st half, SnS II was an entertaining series for me. It wouldn't compare with any of my favorites, but I liked it nonetheless. I do hope for another season to appear sometime.

Akka

2009-09-16, 17:16

Misvoted 6 while I wanted to give a 5.

All in all, this was not a good season. I quite liked the first, but this one suffered from two grievious flaws that quite canceled the good parts.

- Though, unlike many, I was not adverse at all at the slice of life, the way it was handled was just a disaster. The characters were, simply put, butchered. Yuji-the-human who fails as a human being, Shana-the-outlander who is able to give him lessons about how humans behave, my god.
Yuji carried the idiot ball in such a painful and caricatural manner that it nearly destroyed the entire show. It was frankly unbearable. He was reduced to a big blob of passivity and idiocy, he didn't even looked like a character and more like a plot flowerpot.

- The overly-used, cliched-to-death, ultra-predictable and way too excessive dragging of the supposed romantic relationship was dreadful. It's just so boringly common in practically every single serie, and each time stretched way past the breaking point when it comes to suspension of disbelief.
The love triangle (and even painful square if you count Konoe) has become frankly comical (in a not-fun-at-all way), the constant change of mind ("I will definitely tell him ! No, I don't have the courage ! Well, I'll do it ! No I won't !") ridicule the characters, and the systematical interruptions when they will finally spit it out are reaching such a height in predictability that the only surprise I will get will be when they will actually manage to make a single step in their relationship.
The whole romance has become a dreadful bore. It's hardly the only case, sadly, as it seems to be a required part of any anime involving a man and a woman, but it's irritating and annoying just the same.

What SnS has for it, is that they still have likable characters when they are not stroke with the idiot ball (sadly, Yuji was demolished by it this season), Oga-chan and Tanaka save the day by stealing the spotlight and proving there is at least some people not completely dumb, Chigusa is just awesome as usual, the father is a good character, and Wilhelmina is lovable.
The fights are not too dragged-on, which is a relief (though, as usual, Bal Masqué's interventions tend to make the pace slow to a crawl, and are generally not very interesting because of the predictability of what will happens).

All in all, it was more irritating than rewarding, using all the overused common tricks to preserve the statu quo, and breaking the suspension of disbelief. The result is that, rather than enhance the tension and make me care, it detached me from the characters - I do not really care anymore about Shana and Yuiji, they were far too passive and, frankly, dumbs and stupid, which damaged deeply their characters.

They got nearly no progression, and are basically at the same place now than they were in the first season. Yay.

Archon_Wing

2009-09-21, 07:18

As I've noted lately with my review posts of Haruhi and Nanoha, I feel that sometimes issues present in the original work tend to get magnified a bit more in later sequels. But usually the original incarnation had enough going for it, and usually focused in another area so people could ignore it.

Shana, IMO, has always fallen flat when it comes to romance. This was true of season 1 too. The triangle has never had any depth or interest from the moment it was implied; it just felt tacked on. Yes, the whining and moping in the first half of season 2 was bad, but it was merely a continuation of the same junk that was happening in the last part of season 1 (My watching of season 1 grinded to a halt near the end). But at least season 1 provided some kind of definite progress at the end, but they just ignored it in season 2, and thus that is Shana II's greatest sin-- taking a focus on something the series sucks at and undoing much of the character development that had taken place. It's no coincidence that the show is best when it is not involved in this. But you are right about one thing definitely. The repetition and reused lines is absolutely irritating.

The strong part of the series has always been about Yuji trying to regain his sense of self worth and place in life, and how this struggle affects Shana as well, causing them both to grow. This all has an effect on the people surrounding them, and everyone changes. Was it in this season? I think so, to some degree, when Yuji finally puts some effort into making himself beyond some cheerleader. Shana doesn't really seem to have changed much, but she does seem more confident and acts more mature as well, dropping some of her more childish tendencies of "shut uo shut up shut up" and being extremely hot tempered. If Shana II did anything right, it was probably with the side characters.

All and all, I really don't think the two seasons are that far apart in quality. They both share the same strengths and weaknesses, but the second had way more of the weakness. I will admit that this season ends up being shallower as plot wise, there wasn't really much to write home about in the end.

In the end, I simply have come to expect nothing when it comes to romance when it comes to Shana, and hopefully unless severe effort is taken, future incarnations of this series should downplay the romance parts. Even if that goes nowhere, at least focusing on the action elements and internal struggle will make it more enjoyable. Despite my initial negative reaction, there are still parts I come back to rewatch. Better fights, better music so it wasn't a failure for me.

Triple_R

2009-09-22, 09:09

Well, with one key exception (which I'll get to later), I actually very much like the way that romance is handled in Shakugan no Shana. The Yuji/Shana romance has actually become my favorite anime romance.

Shana is the perfect tsundere character. She practically defines this character type, in my opinion.

In my view, Shakugan no Shana Season 1 had a refreshingly genuinely competitive love triangle (Kazumi/Yuji/Shana) which I honestly could have seen going either way, but which I now tend to view Shana as the winner of. I liked this love conflict more than most in anime because...

1) As others have mentioned, Kazumi and Shana are friendly sane rivals instead of insane competitors (as you tend to see in harem-esque love conflicts).

2) It didn't, for me, highlight weaknesses in the favored pairing. Often in anime, I find that the strengths of an alternate pairing tend to showcase the glaring weaknesses in the favored and most likely to be canon pairing. With this anime, I found that both Yuji/Kazumi and Yuji/Shana would fit comfortably with me. I could gladly buy into either one, and the strength of one didn't make the other one look worse by comparison, imo. Both simply felt like good fits to me, each in their own way.

I also felt that the Yuji/Shana romance development returned back to the classic approach to tsundere characters; an approach I much prefer to the modern day approach that has rendered the term 'tsundere' virtually meaningless by overuse and a very broad definition. Classically, tsunderes used to be characters that would start out very 'tsuntsun'; either as an ice queen or as a fiery quick tempered girl, and over time the charms and strengths of the male protagonist would melt through the ice or soothe the flames, and the tsundere would become 'deredere'. This, for me, makes for nice character development interwoven with romantic development; the two happen in a synergistic fashion, which I think reflects the reality that people often grow as individuals while the romances they are in grow as well - each growth being a cause and an effect of the other growth.

This, for me, is how the Yuji/Shana romance flowed in Season 1, as Yuji's gentlemanly approach, largely admirable character, and caring for Shana eventually lead the 'tsuntsun' Shana to become more 'deredere' ultimately resulting in Shana's confession of "I love you, Yuji" to Yuji in the last episode of Season 1. In Season 1, Shana grew a great deal as an individual due to Yuji's influence on her.

Now, this is where I get to the one key exception I mentioned before. Undoing all of that Season 1 development with the facepalm excuse of having Yuji not hearing Shana's confession, and Shana not having the guts to restate it... that was awful for me. It cheapened and undid all that great Season 1 development. Making the love triangle into a love quadrilateral with the introduction of Konoe only served to exacerbate matters. Yes, the Yuji/Shana romance went a bit off the rails during the 1st half of Shakugan no Shana Season II.

However, after Konoe was removed from the equation, the romance began to get back on track. And, personally, I found the Yuji/Shana romance bits in the final arc to be quite touching. I really liked how Shana was racing wildly off to save Yuji, and how she dramatically leaped at him when she finally found him. Then she lay snuggly on top of him, refusing to let him go for a second, as she desperately didn't want him to fade away. A very touching scene that perfectly shows how a tsundere should display her 'deredere' side, imo. It very much reflects my view of Shana as a Warrior Princess of sorts.

One other thing I liked about the romance aspect in Season II is how it was Yuji that grew because of it, this time. Simply put, in the second half of this season, Yuji became a man, and Shana played a big role in that; both in how she trained him, and also in how Yuji wanted to protect her and prove to her that he could make meaningful contributions to the struggle with the tomogara as well.

Overall, I think that the Yuji/Shana romance is getting a very bad rap on this thread. I think it's been handled wonderfully, with the one awful exception I mentioned above. And one thing I liked about it is how, in both seasons, you actually do get the romance pretty much established by the end. Of course, JC Staff could very well pull another annoying retcon of sorts on us, but hopefully they won't this time...

Akka

2009-09-22, 10:40

Overall, I think that the Yuji/Shana romance is getting a very bad rap on this thread. I think it's been handled wonderfully
We probably haven't seen the same serie, then.
Because the romance in the first part of the season 2 is probably one of the worst I ever seen. Seriously.

It butchers the characters (especially Yuji and Shana, who got not only reversal of roles that are very OOC, but also ends up looking incredibly stupid - Yuji much, much more so than Shana though), it creates a totally ridiculous situation and it breaks the suspension of disbelief.

I somehow agree with your description of the S1, but the S2 just tramples and demolishes it.

Triple_R

2009-09-22, 12:05

We probably haven't seen the same serie, then.
Because the romance in the first part of the season 2 is probably one of the worst I ever seen. Seriously.

It butchers the characters (especially Yuji and Shana, who got not only reversal of roles that are very OOC, but also ends up looking incredibly stupid - Yuji much, much more so than Shana though), it creates a totally ridiculous situation and it breaks the suspension of disbelief.

I somehow agree with your description of the S1, but the S2 just tramples and demolishes it.

Well... I agree with you on the first part/first half of S2. Like I wrote, Yuji not hearing Shana's confession, and Shana not quickly restating it after she found that out... epic fail, imo. Easily the worst decision JC Staff has made with this franchise, imo.

And it's only at the very end of S2 that the Yuji/Shana romance fully gets back on track. Of course, if you disliked the final episode conflict itself (whereas I mostly liked it) then you might not have been as moved by the romance aspects either. Basically, you had to really feel like Yuji and Shana were seriously on the ropes here in order for their softer moments to come across well.

Akka

2009-09-22, 13:09

Well... I agree with you on the first part/first half of S2. Like I wrote, Yuji not hearing Shana's confession, and Shana not quickly restating it after she found that out... epic fail, imo. Easily the worst decision JC Staff has made with this franchise, imo.
The start is bad enough, but the real horror comes with how ridiculous the situation during the whole Konoe arc is. Yuji carries the idiot ball and is utterly passive and oblivious to everything and everyone to a point it starts to be either comical, either painful.
This destroyed the character and make the love triangle - and its participants - look stupid.
And it's only at the very end of S2 that the Yuji/Shana romance fully gets back on track. Of course, if you disliked the final episode conflict itself (whereas I mostly liked it) then you might not have been as moved by the romance aspects either. Basically, you had to really feel like Yuji and Shana were seriously on the ropes here in order for their softer moments to come across well.
The problem is, the romance has been so badly handled, so dragged on, and so predictably derailed each time it was about to advance, that in the end you don't really care about - not just because the characters are mere shadows of their former selves after the disastrous script at the beginning and have lost most of their appeal, but also because the stalling of the situation has become so systematic, that you expect that regardless of how the situation might make you think they will FINALLY make a step forward, something will happens that will either stop it right on its track, ret-con it into "nothing happened", or there will be in the end no consequences - in other words, it will always return to the statu quo.

Archon_Wing

2009-09-23, 03:52

In my view, Shakugan no Shana Season 1 had a refreshingly genuinely competitive love triangle (Kazumi/Yuji/Shana) which I honestly could have seen going either way, but which I now tend to view Shana as the winner of.

I can't really agree here. To me, Kazumi never really stood a chance and seemed to be more of an interference. The problem with her was that they never bothered to give her any depth. The only thing of interest from her was that she was a normal person that felt out of place when she became aware of the supernatural events that were occuring. But they didn't really touch on that besides the looking glass. They made her regurgitate the same lines over and over again for the most part.

That being said, I don't even hate the character. In fact, I feel sorry for her because I want them to do more with her to make this part of the triangle more relevant and convincing. They really did get somewhere when she blurted it out, and thus proving she was more certain about things than the other two, but I was disappointed that the impact fizzled.

A character that is a satellite of the another character cannot survive on that alone if you want them to be relevant to the story. Surely, this is not a problem unique to the show. A lot of them have this problem (Hi, Key, I love your works but...) and Shana is far from being the worst, but it sure is annoying.

I liked this love conflict more than most in anime because...

1) As others have mentioned, Kazumi and Shana are friendly sane rivals instead of insane competitors (as you tend to see in harem-esque love conflicts).

That, I could see. It's nice to see that rivals don't always have to be enemies.

I also felt that the Yuji/Shana romance development returned back to the classic approach to tsundere characters; an approach I much prefer to the modern day approach that has rendered the term 'tsundere' virtually meaningless by overuse and a very broad definition. Classically, tsunderes used to be characters that would start out very 'tsuntsun'; either as an ice queen or as a fiery quick tempered girl, and over time the charms and strengths of the male protagonist would melt through the ice or soothe the flames, and the tsundere would become 'deredere'. This, for me, makes for nice character development interwoven with romantic development; the two happen in a synergistic fashion, which I think reflects the reality that people often grow as individuals while the romances they are in grow as well - each growth being a cause and an effect of the other growth.

Being someone that absolutely hates tsundere characters, as I often find tsundere characters reverting (and negating character development) to maintain the gimmick, Shana's the undisputed tsundere queen. She is the best tsundere character I've ever seen, without peer. Often times, you'll have a tsundere character act nice for a little and immediately turn mean again at the end of an episode to get some cheap laughs. The tsun side is always emphasized because it is more funny. A good example of this is Akane from Ranma.

However, Shana doesn't do this. She eventually matures out of this and acts less bad-tempered and bitchy. By season 2, her outbursts are minimal and actually more meaningful if she reverts. In other words, Shana is the only character I can think of that is labeled tsundere and exhibits this great development that you just described. The difference between Shana and Shana II's personalities is so different that I consider it one of Shana II's highlights.

This, for me, is how the Yuji/Shana romance flowed in Season 1, as Yuji's gentlemanly approach, largely admirable character, and caring for Shana eventually lead the 'tsuntsun' Shana to become more 'deredere' ultimately resulting in Shana's confession of "I love you, Yuji" to Yuji in the last episode of Season 1. In Season 1, Shana grew a great deal as an individual due to Yuji's influence on her.

Hmm, I saw this in everything that didn't involve romance. They did grow emotionally, however, when it cames to matters of romance they always got dumb again. The key exception is the famous example you just noted in epsiode 24 of season 1. Of all honesty, I can see their relationship being really strong, but once romance comes in...

There is no doubt that Yuji's own search for identity had a profound effect on Shana. But we get kinda muddled here.

However, after Konoe was removed from the equation, the romance began to get back on track. And, personally, I found the Yuji/Shana romance bits in the final arc to be quite touching. I really liked how Shana was racing wildly off to save Yuji, and how she dramatically leaped at him when she finally found him. Then she lay snuggly on top of him, refusing to let him go for a second, as she desperately didn't want him to fade away. A very touching scene that perfectly shows how a tsundere should display her 'deredere' side, imo. It very much reflects my view of Shana as a Warrior Princess of sorts.

That definitely is one of the high points of the series.

One other thing I liked about the romance aspect in Season II is how it was Yuji that grew because of it, this time. Simply put, in the second half of this season, Yuji became a man, and Shana played a big role in that; both in how she trained him, and also in how Yuji wanted to protect her and prove to her that he could make meaningful contributions to the struggle with the tomogara as well.

Yuji snapping that poor goon's neck and during the fight with Sabrac grew and became a much more confident person. However, there seemed to be some degeneration right after it, to the point where I was like "Did you just forget everything??"

And it's only at the very end of S2 that the Yuji/Shana romance fully gets back on track. Of course, if you disliked the final episode conflict itself (whereas I mostly liked it) then you might not have been as moved by the romance aspects either. Basically, you had to really feel like Yuji and Shana were seriously on the ropes here in order for their softer moments to come across well.

In addition to the above, I just felt like the last part was a step backwards. As I said in my review post, I would have easily given the series an 8 or a 9 if they wrapped it up after Sabrac. It felt so tacked on that I felt absolutely no tension. Did they really have to have Sabrac survive? And the Bal Masque, despite being powerful, just don't have much charisma as villains. Only Hecate is of any interest.

Overall, I think that the Yuji/Shana romance is getting a very bad rap on this thread. I think it's been handled wonderfully, with the one awful exception I mentioned above. And one thing I liked about it is how, in both seasons, you actually do get the romance pretty much established by the end. Of course, JC Staff could very well pull another annoying retcon of sorts on us, but hopefully they won't this time...

The foundation is there, because both seasons have done a spectacular job in making Yuji and Shana very interesting and likable characters. Except in the area of romance. I feel that there's a general unwillingness to move past the status quo, but that's natural in any long running series. If they (writers, as well as Yuji and Shana) want to take the risks involved, we might see something interesting. Currently I see them both as very likable characters and would like to see something happening, but I don't see anything happening.

But in any case, romance isn't really mandatory anyways. I enjoyed both seasons without dwelling too far into it. Certainly Shana has many other interesting themes to think about and even if I think poorly of the way romance is handled, it is unfair to dwell on it too.

Triple_R

2009-09-23, 06:29

I can't really agree here. To me, Kazumi never really stood a chance and seemed to be more of an interference. The problem with her was that they never bothered to give her any depth. The only thing of interest from her was that she was a normal person that felt out of place when she became aware of the supernatural events that were occuring. But they didn't really touch on that besides the looking glass. They made her regurgitate the same lines over and over again for the most part.

That being said, I don't even hate the character. In fact, I feel sorry for her because I want them to do more with her to make this part of the triangle more relevant and convincing. They really did get somewhere when she blurted it out, and thus proving she was more certain about things than the other two, but I was disappointed that the impact fizzled.

A character that is a satellite of the another character cannot survive on that alone if you want them to be relevant to the story. Surely, this is not a problem unique to the show. A lot of them have this problem (Hi, Key, I love your works but...) and Shana is far from being the worst, but it sure is annoying.

Well... I feel that the love triangle was genuinely competitive in Season 1, but it's pretty obvious that Kazumi is out of the running after the events of Season 2, barring an awful retcon of course. I will say that Kazumi did become a bit of a... periphery character, I'll say... during Season 2. Perhaps they should incorporate a bit of the personality of Shana-tan's Kazumi into canon Kazumi in order to make her a bit more interesting. ;)

Being someone that absolutely hates tsundere characters, as I often find tsundere characters reverting (and negating character development) to maintain the gimmick, Shana's the undisputed tsundere queen. She is the best tsundere character I've ever seen, without peer. Often times, you'll have a tsundere character act nice for a little and immediately turn mean again at the end of an episode to get some cheap laughs. The tsun side is always emphasized because it is more funny. A good example of this is Akane from Ranma.

However, Shana doesn't do this. She eventually matures out of this and acts less bad-tempered and bitchy. By season 2, her outbursts are minimal and actually more meaningful if she reverts. In other words, Shana is the only character I can think of that is labeled tsundere and exhibits this great development that you just described. The difference between Shana and Shana II's personalities is so different that I consider it one of Shana II's highlights.

I totally agree with all of the above. Like you said, Shana is the undisputed tsundere queen. She is the character type at its best.

In addition to the above, I just felt like the last part was a step backwards. As I said in my review post, I would have easily given the series an 8 or a 9 if they wrapped it up after Sabrac. It felt so tacked on that I felt absolutely no tension. Did they really have to have Sabrac survive? And the Bal Masque, despite being powerful, just don't have much charisma as villains. Only Hecate is of any interest.

Hecate is my favorite Bal Masque character, I do agree with you there. And like yourself, I thought it was a bit cheap to have that huge, explosive Shana/Sabrac fight only to have Sabrac somehow get away alive at the end.

I do hope that Shana Season 3 either gives us brand new villains of note, or preferably...

brings in "Snake of the Festival" Yuji from the Shana novels who hasn't been seen yet.

The foundation is there, because both seasons have done a spectacular job in making Yuji and Shana very interesting and likable characters. Except in the area of romance. I feel that there's a general unwillingness to move past the status quo, but that's natural in any long running series. If they (writers, as well as Yuji and Shana) want to take the risks involved, we might see something interesting. Currently I see them both as very likable characters and would like to see something happening, but I don't see anything happening.

But in any case, romance isn't really mandatory anyways. I enjoyed both seasons without dwelling too far into it. Certainly Shana has many other interesting themes to think about and even if I think poorly of the way romance is handled, it is unfair to dwell on it too.

It's funny... you see Yuji/Shana the way I see Kyon/Haruhi over in Haruhi's anime. Basically, where I see strongly implied romance with Yuji/Shana through much of their time together, you see strong friendship bonds and camaraderie and little else. It would be very hypocritical for me to fault you for that since I find the same thing with Kyon/Haruhi... where most Haruhi fans (here on Anime Suki anyway) see strongly implied romance, I just see strong friendship bonds and camaraderie and little else.

For me, I guess, the key line between romance and friendship is the line "I love you" explicitly stated (usually; even that line can be said in a platonic way, of course, but if it is platonic, it'll typically be made clear that it is). Since Shana has said that line to Yuji, I feel comfortable to view their relationship as a strongly implied romantic one. Although, in fairness, Yuji can be blind to his own feelings towards Shana at times.

Archon_Wing

2009-09-23, 07:11

Well... I feel that the love triangle was genuinely competitive in Season 1, but it's pretty obvious that Kazumi is out of the running after the events of Season 2, barring an awful retcon of course. I will say that Kazumi did become a bit of a... periphery character, I'll say... during Season 2. Perhaps they should incorporate a bit of the personality of Shana-tan's Kazumi into canon Kazumi in order to make her a bit more interesting. ;)

Well, Shana-Tan never fails to please. :D

It's funny... you see Yuji/Shana the way I see Kyon/Haruhi over in Haruhi's anime. Basically, where I see strongly implied romance with Yuji/Shana through much of their time together, you see strong friendship bonds and camaraderie and little else. It would be very hypocritical for me to fault you for that since I find the same thing with Kyon/Haruhi... where most Haruhi fans (here on Anime Suki anyway) see strongly implied romance, I just see strong friendship bonds and camaraderie and little else.

There's definitely more than friendship here. It's just that the nature of the relationship gets muddled when it comes to any discussion of romance and ends being silly. The worst part is nothing seems to stick and we are perpetually stuck in a "will they or will they not" that Akka and I seem to loathe a lot.

The way I see it, it seems Shana loves Yuji more than vice versa. From her thoughts, Shana definitely feels that way towards Yuji. But what about Yuji? He's nowhere near as certain and sure he cares about Shana and views her in a positive light, but he's constantly split between Kazumi and Shana. And as we already know, he approaches it in a manner too stupid for him. He is not an idiot, except when it comes to this matter.

It's not entirely unjustified. After all, neither is that comfortable about issues like this and sometimes just because they could doesn't mean they should, even if there is attraction. It's not that I don't believe a Yuji/Shana relationship is possible; it's more likely than otherwise but It'll take a few more hurdles for this to become anything.

Speaking of Haruhi, she does look like Shana sometimes, especially when Haruhi has the long hair. :heh:

For me, I guess, the key line between romance and friendship is the line "I love you" explicitly stated (usually; even that line can be said in a platonic way, of course, but if it is platonic, it'll typically be made clear that it is). Since Shana has said that line to Yuji, I feel comfortable to view their relationship as a strongly implied romantic one. Although, in fairness, Yuji can be blind to his own feelings towards Shana at times.

And of course the strongest piece is here; unforunately it was undone. But at least he didn't say he didn't understand. ;)

Akka

2009-09-23, 08:19

Although, in fairness, Yuji can be is blind to his own everyone's feelings towards Shana at all the times.
Fix'd to better render the truth :D

Dr. Casey

2009-09-23, 09:32

Well... I feel that the love triangle was genuinely competitive in Season 1

Yeah, the first season treated Yoshida a lot more kindly. I always thought she actually pulled ahead of Shana for a time during that bit where she and Yuuji cried together. The second season, though... if there was a drinking game for every time Yoshida felt insignificant to Yuuji in comparison with Shana, the person would pass out after about three episodes. It was pretty rough.

Oh well, at least Yoshida can hook up with Ik - wait, never mind. Ike's pretty much sucked since episode seven of Shana II.

Well... I agree with you on the first part/first half of S2. Like I wrote, Yuji not hearing Shana's confession, and Shana not quickly restating it after she found that out... epic fail, imo.

Huh, that's a new one. I've heard people criticize J C Staff's decision to have Yuuji not hear the confession, but I've never heard much blame aimed towards Shana. I'm okay with Shana changing the subject; the mood wasn't there like it was during the first season's closing episode, and... well, confessions are pretty damn mortifying. There was a girl I liked online a couple of years ago. About six months after I started liking her as more than a friend, I decided to send her a message telling her that. The PM took only a few minutes to write up. Working up the nerve to send it? Over an hour. :heh:

I don't have many complaints with the Shana/Yuuji relationship. If I'd watched the second series as it aired, then yeah, I would have been expecting the worst after the premiere. "Character and story development is lame, so we're going to have the protagonists keep on running in circles even after those attitudes and behavioral patterns stop making sense. *main heroine makes out with main hero for twenty mintes* BAKA INU! I'M AN ARISTOCRAT!" In the end, though, I think Shana II actually did progress things a lot. As Archon pointed out, Shana developed a lot and maintains that development (Shana's protective streak was one of the best things to come from the second season - "If you touch him I'll kill you", "I won't ever let you get that close again", etc). Shana and Yoshida developed such a close relationship and turned their rivalry down from 'heated' to 'perfectly friendly and sportsmanlike' so quickly that it was almost unrealistic, but hey, that's still the opposite of being slow to develop. Besides, it's not as though the reset was done just for the hell of it - it allowed for the relationship with Shana and Yoshida to get a large amount of development, becoming best friends in the middle of competing for Yuuji, and I honestly think ending things with the first season would have been premature. The romantic angle could have used some more exploration before the relationship became cemented. Hell, Yoshida and Shana were almost strangers at the end of the first season/beginning of the second, a love triangle can't be especially developed if two of its points have barely spoken.

Yeah. Normally, something like the reset in the first episode would be irritating, but since the Shana anime doesn't seem afraid of changing around the status quo (Which is the larger problem that the reset would represent), it strikes me less as "Typical anime bullshit" and more as "We're still pretty early in the series, no need to end the fun right now." I'll be less magnanimous if there's a reset in the third season as well, but there's not much we can do now except wait and see.