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starduck
2003-11-10, 05:53
Yes, its finally out.

You might wonder why it took more time than usual... Its because we thought it would be nice to translate the french page of a book you can see during the episode... We've also added a few more explanation, which you can see at the end of the episode. Now, I know that you guys won't download our episode "just" for that translation of the book so I'll post it here ;)

French version :

...sont impatienté de mon pinceau maladroit et se sont envolés chacun de leur côté. Je m'accroche à leurs chaussures boueuese et leur hurle de m'attendre. Si je n'élabore pas un nouveau plan de bataille, c'est moi qui vais perdre souffle le premier.

Bref, ce roman n'est pas très drôle. Il n'est fait que de poses. Ce genre de lire, qu'on en écrive une page ou cent, ça revient au même. Mais ça, je le savais depuis le début. J'était optimiste en espérant qu'au moins un élément sincère sortirait de ce que j'était entrain d'écrire. Quelle prétention de ma part. Je suire prétentieux, mais n'ai-je pas au moins un bon côté? Désespérant de mon style puant et bavard, je traque quand même dans le moindre recoin "Au moin une bonne chose, au moin une". Ce faisant, je commence à me raidir à vue d'oeil : C'est que j'ai claqué. Ah! Un roman, on ne doit l'écrire que sans arrières-pensées. Avec de bons sentiments, on ne fait pas de la bonne littérature. Qu'est-ce que j'ai pus être bête - et que ce mot contienne les pires choses! Si l'on n'est pas dans un état extasique, jamais on ne pourra écrire un roman. Si un mot ou une phrase rebondit dans votre coeur en dix sense différent, il vaut mieux casser votre pinceau et le jeter. Qu'il s'agisse de Yôzô, de Hida our encore the Kosuge, ils n'ont nul besoin de se montrer prétencieux comme ça en toute occasion. De toute façon, on sait d'où ils viennent. Sois mièvre, sois mièvre. Spontané, sans réfléchir.

Ce soir-là, la nuit était déjà bien avancée quand le frère aîné de Yôzô vient le voir à la clinique. Yôzô jouait au cartes avec Hida et Kosuge. La vieille, lorsque le frère était venu pour la première fois, il me semble qu'ils jouaient aussi tout les trois. Mais il ne faudrait pas croire qu'ils passent leurs journées des cartes à la main. Au contraire, on peut dire qu'ils détestent jouer . Ils ne sortent des cartes que lorsqu'ils s'ennuient ferme. En outre, ils évitent les jeux où...

English version :

...got fed up with my lousy writing skills and left. I clung to their muggy shoes and yelled for them to wait. I'll be the first one to be winded unless I come up with a new battle plan...

So apparently, this novel really isn't too amusing. The pace is too slow; whether you write one page or a hundred of these types of books, they all read the same in the end. But the fact of the matter is, I've known it all along. I got worked up, thinking that perhaps one sincere thing would come out of my writing. I may be pretentious, but perhaps I have at least one good thing to me? Exasperated by my talkative, mediocre style, I still long to find that one thing I'm good at... In doing so, my body started to stiffen up. Perhaps it is because I'm tired. Ah! One cannot write a novel without prejudice, for one cannot just simply write a novel out of good sentiment. How absurd could I be... for I end up writing the worst imaginable things time after time! One cannot write a novel without being ecstatic. If you find that a word or a phrase equivocates within your heart in ten different ways, you're better off breaking and throwing your pen away. Whether he is Yozo, Hida, or even Kosuge, there's no point in being so pretentious all the time. Be sentimental and spontaneous without thought.

That night, it was getting pretty late when Yozo's big brother came to see him at the clinic. Yozo was playing cards with Hida and Kosuge. A few days earlier, when the brother came for the first time, it seemed that the three of them were also playing. But it wouldn't be right to think that they do nothing but play cards all day. On the contrary, you could say that they actually hate playing. They only pull out the cards when they are really bored. Moreover, they avoid games where you...

Brought to you by by Chii, Torgan, Daeluin, Evilmech and me

it doesn't make much sense, nor does it help with the story... But we thought that we might as well translate it... Enjoy ;)

DarkSide Hero
2003-11-10, 10:39
Good Job guys Keep Up the nice work!

durrem
2003-11-10, 15:10
Thanks. I was waiting for your episode anyway. Thanks for going the extra mile. Did Chii translate that page, too? :)

hunterx
2003-11-10, 15:30
Probably OT but I guess I'll ask here. How come many of the episodes are very small ~100KB for this particular anime, while most animes compress to around ~180KB?

starduck
2003-11-10, 15:36
Thanks. I was waiting for your episode anyway. Thanks for going the extra mile. Did Chii translate that page, too? :)

Nah, I did... He edited it tho...

hunterx -> Because Tsuki doesn't have any flashy colors, and there's no action... There's no fast movements. Its like watching a bmp with sound... And its megs... not kb ;)

DarkSide Hero
2003-11-10, 16:46
It's not because of the lower horizontal resolution?

FrozenShade
2003-11-10, 17:08
Good work Chii, Torgan, Daeluin, Evilmech and starduck. :bow:
I guess it's time for me to start watching Tsukihime~ ;)

Nins
2003-11-10, 22:34
I always think it is worth it to wait for ANBU's version for some reason... but I wish there were more bots in the mirc #anbudom channel to distribute Tsukihime though... just a quesition, in general there aren't that many ANBU| bots as previously on the channel? anyway keep up the good work Starduck and ANBU!

starduck
2003-11-10, 23:35
Well... we've got 5 release bots... 1 is 100mbit, the 4 others are 10mbit... Generally, people don't even wait un queues to get our newest releases... beside for Naruto and FMA... I think its enough bots...

Videric
2003-11-11, 15:32
Cant you just download it from BT :hmm: ?

Nins
2003-11-11, 15:59
Cant you just download it from BT :hmm: ?

ok my bad, there seems to be enough bots in the channel....(just discovered the forum lol)

as for BT v Mirc bot download.... Videric, I do not know if you actually know how to download through mirc rather than BT but you can get your anime alot quicker on mirc via bots in any channel that has decent bots whereas BT tends to be slower if there are way too many leechers v seeds or the whole system of BT for a very popular anime series is getting hammered and BT stuffs up (eg. getwoot and popular anime like Naruto on BT)... therefore it is a personal choice which I tend to choose mirc over BT usually unless there isn't a bot distro for watever reason it is not available on a fansub group's mirc channel :naughty:

Videric
2003-11-11, 16:22
I sure know how to download from mirc.. what did you think i did before BT was popular? I mean its just easier to just download from BT then search f-serv's.. sure xdcc bots are good , but often as mentioned before there is queue's.

So i just download from BT, Thats it :)

monir
2003-11-11, 22:15
it doesn't make much sense, nor does it help with the story... But we thought that we might as well translate it... Enjoy ;)
Starduck-sama, is that mean you are getting softy toward the frenchie's...:D..I read some of your logs of actual-encounter-in-the-web from your site..So I had to know...*dling Tsukihame as we speak*

starduck
2003-11-11, 23:54
No, it only means that I happen to speak french and wanted to share this with the rest of people enjoying Tsukihime using my skills and knowledge ;)

metachronism
2003-11-12, 08:08
Is ANBU's title for episode 5 "L'arc de Ciel" a real word? I was under the impression that the correct French is "L'arc en Ciel."

Also, why did the title become French after it was presented in English in the preview at the end of episode 4?

K_R
2003-11-12, 08:41
Probably OT but I guess I'll ask here. How come many of the episodes are very small ~100KB for this particular anime, while most animes compress to around ~180KB?

Maybe they overfilter?

The HDTV raws clock in at 200MB+, minus some for resize, add some (lots) for subtitle overhead (subs = sharp edges = harder to compress).

u&t
2003-11-12, 09:37
They use unusually low bitrates. Thats all.

My guess is they just have an encoder that really knows what he's doing

starduck
2003-11-12, 09:46
Is ANBU's title for episode 5 "L'arc de Ciel" a real word? I was under the impression that the correct French is "L'arc en Ciel."

Also, why did the title become French after it was presented in English in the preview at the end of episode 4?

"Arc-en-ciel" means Rainbow... "L'arc de Ciel" means "Ciel's (The character) bow" ... Or "The bow of the sky" ... Ciel = sky. In the game, Ciel's nickname is "The bow", because she uses a lot of projectile weapons ...

And it wasn't written like that at the end of episode 04 because we absolutly had no information to make that kind of decision. Chii decided to make the change while translating episode 05.

mashadar
2003-11-12, 12:18
Maybe they overfilter?

The HDTV raws clock in at 200MB+, minus some for resize, add some (lots) for subtitle overhead (subs = sharp edges = harder to compress).

Overfilter? Nope.
It's because it doesn't contain much detail in luma, it's dark and it doesn't have much motion

subs = sharp edges? The subtitle filters antialias the edges of the fonts to reduce sharpness.

Subs don't add much and can even make the compressed file smaller because they have static areas.

nyaa-san
2003-11-12, 12:42
Starduck: Comment peux-tu traduire un texte en français si tu n'es même pas capable de le transcrire correctement?

starduck
2003-11-12, 14:17
Starduck: Comment peux-tu traduire un texte en français si tu n'es même pas capable de le transcrire correctement?

Can't you just speak english? As far as I know, this is an english bulletin board... This might interest some people so here is what the frenchie said : "How can you translate a text if you can't even write it down correctly"

Since when does a text needs perfect spelling to be translated correctly? All you need to know is what the words mean. Beside, who cares about the french part? If you speak french, you don't need the translation. I wrote down the text without caring about typos or gramatical errors because it was just not important enough. I only used it to translate it, its not like we included the french part in the episode or something. So yah, your point makes no sens. Thank you and come again.

Breogan
2003-11-12, 14:19
Just finished watching it and it had a great encode as always, and that page translation is a nice plus.
However I think you mistranslated (or misinterpreted?) the name of Roa (the Shito Arcueid is chasing) as Lore.

nyaa-san
2003-11-12, 15:03
Well, you were like "look we translated the episode to its smallest details, like that insignificant page that appears for a split second, and we have a full page of translation notes at the end. See that we are cautious fansubbers"... maybe it's to compensate the fact that no one knew what akasha was...
and instead of retranslating a page of an obscure novel from Dazai Ozamu translated in french, you should spend the "more time than usual" to play the game...

starduck
2003-11-12, 15:12
Well, you were like "look we translated the episode to its smallest details, like that insignificant page that appears for a split second, and we have a full page of translation notes at the end. See that we are cautious fansubbers"... maybe it's to compensate the fact that no one knew what akasha was...
and instead of retranslating a page of an obscure novel from Dazai Ozamu translated in french, you should spend the "more time than usual" to play the game...


Sorry, oooohhhhhhh great frenchie if we haven't translated akasha correctly. We'll try to satisfy your needs in a better way next time.

Hahahaa Who's bragging? I've only said that we thought it would be cool to translate it and we did it. Beside, don't act like you are perfect. Everybody makes mistakes. Not one single group have been flawless so far and none of them is bragging about being 100% correct. We are doing our best in the limited time we have (We don't have all day to fansub ya know, as you prolly do, we have lives and can't play the game 24 hours a day.) so if you ain't happy about the fact that our translator mistranslated 1 name, then go leech NLA's version, they got it right.

mashadar
2003-11-12, 16:00
I must say I have to agree with nyaa-san here. If you have time to translate something insignificant (a page from a french translation of a japanese book, that the animators just happened to have handy when they did that scene), you have time for research.

If you don't have time to play the games there are plenty of sites that provide you with all the information you need.

metachronism
2003-11-12, 16:00
"Arc-en-ciel" means Rainbow... "L'arc de Ciel" means "Ciel's (The character) bow" ... Or "The bow of the sky" ... Ciel = sky. In the game, Ciel's nickname is "The bow", because she uses a lot of projectile weapons ...

And it wasn't written like that at the end of episode 04 because we absolutly had no information to make that kind of decision. Chii decided to make the change while translating episode 05.

That's exacly my point. You somehow decided to use French between episodes 4 and 5, and yet you didn't realize that it was a word play to start out with.

As far as I know, "l'arc de ciel" is totally nonsensical french (literally meaning "bow of the sky" as you said). The intent in the title was to play a pun with "rainbow" in french, and the name the Church has given her "Ciel" (it's not her real name), and her role in the church as a hunter (she is called the "bow" of the Church).

I'm baffled as to how you reached the conclusion to use French when you didn't get that part. It's not like it was revealed in episode 5 that "Ciel" is a French word.

To back up my claim, there is a joke in the game regarding Ciel and the popular Japanese band "L'arc en Ciel."

BTW, I saw a "wreck havoc" in the first few minutes of episode 5. Did you guys mean "wreak havoc?" Translating French is cool (I sure can't do it to any respectable degree), but I think you should pay more attention to the English part first ;)

--meta

Akiace
2003-11-12, 16:13
Do I see a flame war coming?

I personally feel the fansub groups have the right to sub the episode the way they want and there is nothing wrong with taking the time to translate a French page even if it has nothing to do with the overall plot. For all you know, there will be people out there who are curious about that page. And these people are certainly not language specialists so there are bound to be mistakes here and there...

starduck
2003-11-12, 16:37
That's exacly my point. You somehow decided to use French between episodes 4 and 5, and yet you didn't realize that it was a word play to start out with.

I'm sure you already that I ain't the one who translated the episode and that its Chii who did it. I'm also sure you know that my life isn't linked to Chii's life so when I have free time, he doesn't always have free time. Therefore, why do you even bother arguing about this? Will you die just because we translated some french sentences and didn't get Akasha right? Oh sorry, we didn't realize the pun. My bad.

I'm SURE you aren't perfect and did mistakes like that too so PLEASE, stop being so rude about it, its not like its gonna affect you in any way. I have no idea who you are, so I won't judge but if you can do better, then do it and stop looking at people's mistakes and acting like you are some kind of superior being.

And for the rest of your post, I can't answer, that will be up to Chii, if he answers that is.

metachronism
2003-11-12, 17:04
I'm sure you already that I ain't the one who translated the episode and that its Chii who did it. I'm also sure you know that my life isn't linked to Chii's life so when I have free time, he doesn't always have free time. Therefore, why do you even bother arguing about this? Will you die just because we translated some french sentences and didn't get Akasha right? Oh sorry, we didn't realize the pun. My bad.

I'm SURE you aren't perfect and did mistakes like that too so PLEASE, stop being so rude about it, its not like its gonna affect you in any way. I have no idea who you are, so I won't judge but if you can do better, then do it and stop looking at people's mistakes and acting like you are some kind of superior being.

And for the rest of your post, I can't answer, that will be up to Chii, if he answers that is.

People get so defensive... They lash out at you as if you've done them wrong, when they are the ones who are at fault. Am I to blame for your problems?

And as for your "if you can do it right, then do it," on those particular issues, yes, I have. Does that qualify me any more or less to point out anyone else's errors?

What is rude about pointing out errors? Do leechers have to be meek and humble in the face of the great fansubbers? Do they have to be fed BS unknowingly, and not have any say in it? Do the copyright owners deserve having their work slaughtered? If you ask me, I think it's "rude" to throw something out on the net and expect it to be treated like an immaculate, unquestionable piece of divine work, when it has problems.

I don't understand the fansubbers that get offended when their mistakes are pointed out. It's THEIR fault for making them in the first place.

starduck
2003-11-12, 17:22
What are you tryign to do? boosting your ego because you aren't satisfied about the result of your version? Of course people get defensive when they get their work bashed by some random dude who's sad because his version isn't as good. You don't see me leeching your version with the only goal of finding mistakes so I can diss your group for doing the show and ruining the creator's work. And I've never blamed you for our mistakes. Why would I? I don't try to blame other people when I can't get something done 100% correctly.

Sure, you're doing Tsukihime. Sure, you think you're doing the best job. We all do. Otherwise, we wouldn't be doing it. Now, yes, you have the right to point out translation mistakes and other things... But why bother? A good translator doesn't have to bash somebody else's work to prove that he/she's the best. You're desesperate to get people to leech your version, I can tell.

"If you ask me, I think it's "rude" to throw something out on the net and expect it to be treated like an immaculate, unquestionable piece of divine work, when it has problems." So you ARE saying that you're perfect, right? GG ...

mashadar
2003-11-12, 17:51
I believe the main problem here is: "If you are going to do it, why not do a good job on it"

You say you (the people that worked on your version) have little time to spare to work on it, and yet you manage to get it out very fast.

Ok, they may have other projects to work on, which are also released in a quick pace...

But if the result is that those projects have noticable problems, why not cut down and spend more time per project instead of increasing the number of projects and have less time for each?

starduck
2003-11-12, 17:56
I believe the main problem here is: "If you are going to do it, why not do a good job on it"

You say you (the people that worked on your version) have little time to spare to work on it, and yet you manage to get it out very fast.

Because we think we do a pretty good job and we did our best. And note that best != perfect. Being perfect is impossible. And don't reply saying it sucks even if we think its pretty good, people who compared the Tsukihime version have all concluded that ANBU is doing a pretty good job, and you can't deny it.

I didn't say we have litle time to spare to fansub. I said we don't have all day long to play the game over and over again until we know every words, every scenes, every sounds of it.

Daeluin
2003-11-12, 18:04
it really bothers me how mashadar and metachronism are always right there to point out mistakes in others work. even to the point of scouring through another group's episode for typos to publicly point out. and I'm not talking about the stupid meta-starduck fight this has dwindled down to.


I would like to play the game, actually, and I would make time for it. but alas I do not read japanese fluently, and I know of no translation. and until I can experience the plot in the way it was meant to unfold, I have no intention of reading websites full of spoilers. Chii has resources available to him in this regard, and he does a fine job getting most things right.

as for the translation, I feel uncomfortable at certain places with either one. but personally, I prefer how Chii's wording has more flow to it, which leads to a better understanding than perfect accuracy does, in my opinion. yes, of course we all try to do the best work we can, but we are not professinals, we are fans, so there will be a mistake we miss sometimes.

in case anyone hasn't noticed, both mash and meta are from NLA, while starduck and myself are from ANBU. so to whomever isn't part of these groups, it might be good to take the last half of this thread so far with a grain of salt and an unbiased smile and nod.
; )


oh yes, that insignificant french sign. curiosity overcame me and I wanted to know what it said. since we had a fluent french speaker on hand, I made him translate it, then decided others, like me, might be curious, so we added it to the end.
I don't see a big problem with this.

metachronism
2003-11-12, 18:09
What are you tryign to do? boosting your ego because you aren't satisfied about the result of your version? Of course people get defensive when they get their work bashed by some random dude who's sad because his version isn't as good. You don't see me leeching your version with the only goal of finding mistakes so I can diss your group for doing the show and ruining the creator's work. And I've never blamed you for our mistakes. Why would I? I don't try to blame other people when I can't get something done 100% correctly.

Sure, you're doing Tsukihime. Sure, you think you're doing the best job. We all do. Otherwise, we wouldn't be doing it. Now, yes, you have the right to point out translation mistakes and other things... But why bother? A good translator doesn't have to bash somebody else's work to prove that he/she's the best. You're desesperate to get people to leech your version, I can tell.

"If you ask me, I think it's "rude" to throw something out on the net and expect it to be treated like an immaculate, unquestionable piece of divine work, when it has problems." So you ARE saying that you're perfect, right? GG ...

I specifically abstained from saying who I was to avoid weak retorts such as this. Why does it matter who I am or what I do? Does that change the objectivity of the point I'm making? Not once did I try to promote another group through the posts in this thread. Tell me where I did if you think I did. The fact that you *assume* that is my objective is just appalling. That assumption implies that *your* goal is to "get results" -- a rather juvenile motivation to fansub.

If anyone has an ego issue, it's the fansubbers that can't accept their own mistakes. They also seem to have a persecution complex that everyone is out to get them.

I never claimed perfection, nor expect it out of anyone. But the discovered issues are artifacts of 1) lack of research and 2) lack of basic linguistic skills. If you can offer a defensible argument as to why they should be there, I will "go die" as you have politely asked.

If people discover issues in our version, they are more than welcome to post in our forums. In fact, we have a section dedicated just for that. Please feel free to leave critiques--yes, you too, starduck.

starduck
2003-11-12, 18:23
My goal is to get results? How so? I really don't get your point. Please elaborate.

I can't accept my own mistake(s)? What mistake(s) did I do? Please tell me.

I can't explain why Chii didn't get Akasha right, I'm not him so I won't ASSUME the factors of why he didn't get it...

DarKBoArDeR
2003-11-12, 18:34
i still fail to see the point in all this. First off y bother even pointing out mistakes, all that attempts to do is belittle a group. most leechers out there (i consider myself an average leecher) dont notice let alone know that something is not translated perfectly. most of us just enjoy watching the episodes, we dont feel the need to be analytical and pick apart an episode. i dont know i just dont see the need to point out little shit like that, if its blantantly obvious then maybe, but we can usually filter out all the blatantly obvious mistakes. so quit yer bitching meta and just enjoy watching anime like a true fan

metachronism
2003-11-12, 18:35
I'm not here to start group wars. The archetypical "defensive fansubber" seems to want to do that.

As for you, Daeluin, I'd like to let you know that I have yet to watch a full episode by any group. I just ask people who have watched other versions about places where I suspect issues to arise, and it usually turns out to be the case that there is. Sometimes, I hear about these points without even asking, because the leechers find it questionable as well. The only reason they don't bring the issues forward is because they fear irritable fansubbers that would ban them from their distribution channel or whatever.

It just so happens that most of my inquiries go through mashadar since he has connections to many people, so he is aware of these issues that I bring up as well.

If people don't like the fact that I do this "pointing out" whilst I work on the series myself, I would gladly stop working on the series, if people would stop making hurried releases at the cost of introducing easily preventable errors as these.

If you want to get episodes out fast just to see more downloaders, great. There's nothing wrong with that. But please, don't do it at the cost of introducing trivial errors.

Thank you.

Daeluin
2003-11-12, 19:01
only we don't rush our releases, and any mistakes, however trivial, have been sought out with a great deal of effort. please don't take this as an opportunity to lay into our obviously infferior methos for fansubbing, as it will not garner response.



As for you, Daeluin, I'd like to let you know that I have yet to watch a full episode by any group. I just ask people who have watched other versions about places where I suspect issues to arise, and it usually turns out to be the case that there is.
it seems odd that you don't worry about watching other group's episodes, yet you are so vehement with your criticism.

mashadar
2003-11-12, 19:03
it really bothers me how mashadar and metachronism are always right there to point out mistakes in others work. even to the point of scouring through another group's episode for typos to publicly point out. and I'm not talking about the stupid meta-starduck fight this has dwindled down to.



When I pointed out mistakes in the other thread it was as a comparison and where the results were requested by another poster.
Usually I don't talk about specific errors on a forum.

nyaa-san
2003-11-12, 19:15
can't accept my own mistake(s)? What mistake(s) did I do? Please tell me.

can't see? i'll help you:
You people complain you don't have the time to look for information, yet are subbing a dozen shows at the same time...
And whenever there's an error, you put everything on the translator's back...
there are a few useful ressources for tsukihime in english going around...
enough to get things like Nrvnsqr Chaos, arc-en-ciel, Akasha or Roa right.

NoSanninWa
2003-11-12, 19:23
That is waaaay enough of that. This thread has turned into a partisan battle over fansubbing superiority. It's fine when you are proud of the work you've done, but this has gotten blatantly rancorous.

Not only is this thread getting a bit too hot, but it is pretty much a personal argument between metachronism and starduck. Take it to PM guys. Of course since the main purpose of this is to show up each other publicly, I'm sure you aren't interested in that.

Finally, we've already got two perfectly suitable thread for discussing Tsukihime: Best subs for Tsukihime?...help me><.... (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=639)
Shingetsutan Tsukihime (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=509)
So any releveant conversation can be continued there. Please note that this argument is not relevant conversation - It's over.