Character Discussion - C.C [Archive] - Page 5

Var

2008-07-11, 21:15

The new ED for example. It's a clearly a plus point for LxC. But so far I have read everything from - "it's clamp so it doesn't matterto "it is a goodbye scene, it means C.C. will die".

Your word is not law. You perceived the moment to be a plus point for C.C.. The chimp sitting at my side, however, thought of it as nothing more than a good target to fling its poo at. Me, on a more civilized side, saw the ED and said, "Interesting." And then moved on. I didn't see it a plus for C.C., just like I didn't see the Suzaku and Lelouch ED scene as a plus for SuzakuxLelouch.
Simply because others do not share your opinion does not make them wrong. One should welcome people to disagree as it spawns conversation and discussion. Blanketing something as 'clearly' only invites people to verbally disagree because they 'clearly' did not see what you did and simply start pouting matches.

While I agree that it is drawn by clamp and might not be official or anything; would they be saying the same thing, if the same picture featured Kallen and Lelou? Dann would have declared KxL to be canon, and all the KxL fans would be rejoicing. Everything in favour of LxC is meaningless, while falling on top of Lelou was an almost kiss scene. Really? :rolleyes:

Yes, why? Because I didn't consider the Suzaku and Lelouch picture at the end as symbolising some sort of lovers affection between them. I'd be inclined to believe it more if, say, C.C. or Kallen were kissing Lelouch... and not molting.
And seriously, why bring Dann into this? His opinion has become about as respected as a led ball in a floating contest on Jupiter. It's there, you see, it makes loud splashes, but, ultimately, it sinks and is forgotten.
Oh, and a correction I must make, the prominence of the almost kiss scene was not the kiss scene, nor the scene. But the composure, words, and atmosphere (contributed by the ever so timely music) present. You are looking at everything only skin deep. Error 500! But, if you want, you can dismiss me as a hopeless fanboy with a dictionary and a thesaurus.

The truth is it could really go either way, or Lelouch could even be alone in the end. At this point, what with Shirley's death and all, who can really predict, what will happen? We can only wait and see how it will unfold, and hope the writers do a good job.

The truth is this is really the wrong thread. I can predict what will happen, so can anyone else. That doesn't mean they will be right, but a simple death or occurence does not stop everyone's ability of predicting. The spoiler thread is proof of that.
And to be perfectly frank, I do not think it can go either way anymore. I only see two possibilities at this point, and I do not expect anything to change my mind anytime soon. Feel free to disagree.

Just out of curiousity, how do you interpret the ed scene? I personally thought that the scene was a scene of separation due to the colours and imagery used but am interested in another opinion. For the record if it was Kallen instead of C.C there I would have the same interpretation :p

I quoted this simply as an example of what I said above about disagreeing and how good discussion can be spawned. PS: Demon was the one who gave me my current outlook of that scene, when I originally saw it I was very... disinterested? Likely because I was too busy pausing and unpausing the OP every two seconds... and looping Kallen's salute. Yes... ... ...

What chess piece is the witch? Maybe the one playing the game, but I know who Q1 and the King is. :)

The witch is the player. As is the warlock. Go back to Arthurian legends (as the Arthurian symbolism is begining to mesh with the Chess metaphor (for more information on this see either Esper or my own... mini-forum thing... Esper I'll reply to you soon!)) and you can see that Merlin and the Lady of the Lake were the players in the tapestry of fate that comprises the story of Arthur and his knights. They were all controlled by these power entities, like the pieces on a board.

C.C might not be a piece here, but the player... :uhoh:

Why is that an :uhoh: ? I :uhoh:ed (Yes, I'm using emoticons as words and conjugating them too!) when she gave Lelouch his powers in S1. She's never been a piece on the board.

Well call me weird but my chesspieces have never started to make out. Maybe I should buy a new chessboard? Even if you think the chess pieces are symbolic they don't have to be symbolic in a romantic way. Or does Charles f*ck his knight of one? or who the one is that represents the queen at Brittanian.

Call me stupid but I don't remember Q1 and the King making out ever. Kallen has never kissed Lelouch, nor has Lelouch kissed her.

Also, why would the Knight (key word) of One be his Queen? Most logical people would put the piece called a knight into the knight slot. Charles' Queen was his personal Knight, which was Marianne. If Lelouch and Nunally are even a remote hint, then he was sleeping with his Queen. Unless he has a pregnancy enducing Geass.
Charles: "Have babies!"
Marianne: "Yes, your majesty."
Charles: "Ahahahahahahahahaha!"
V.V.: "We're trading in your Geass for a more useful one."

In this new game, Charles is no longer the king on the board. He is more the prize. The actual king playing is Schneizel now, and his Queen is no one. Cornelia was the Queen in the last Season, but there was no King. Only the OoBK has a King and a Queen.

(Disclaimer: No monkey actually sat at my side while I was watching Ep.13. I was actually chumming it up with my invisible friend who eats your babies!!!!)
(No babies were hurt in the writing of this post.)
(No monkeys were fired during, before, or after this post.)

Crap, Var's here. I must have done something wrong.

What am I? Some sort of demon?

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-11, 21:18

What am I? Some sort of demon?

Pretty much. If anyone ever tries to say something positive about C.C., even if it's just speculation, you're always there to rip it all apart.

And the Queen piece was designed after her apparently. But of course, now I'll get yelled at.

Verist

2008-07-11, 21:20

yezhanquan

2008-07-11, 21:20

I think that C.C. is something not to be taken for granted. I still stand that she is akin to Ryuk from Death Note, minus the fun part as she has a stake on the outcome.

Stargaze

2008-07-11, 21:20

What chess piece is the witch? Maybe the one playing the game, but I know who Q1 and the King is. :)

C.C. not represented as a chess piece could also mean that she is one that does not need to follow Lelouch's order which differentiates her from the others such as the Black Knights. Kallen, as some people have suggested, is the queen (derived from her code name "Q1". But does that mean she is the most important person besides Lelouch? Personally I don't believe so. In fact, I believe this actually works against her overall importance. She may be the most important piece in the "chess game" Lelouch is playing but she is only important in this aspect. Which is in contrast to C.C. as she is free from being Lelouch's pawn, free from being merely a simple chess piece.

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-11, 21:21

Verist

2008-07-11, 21:24

C.C. not represented as a chess piece could also mean that she is one that does not need to follow Lelouch's order which differentiates her from the others such as the Black Knights. Kallen, as some people have suggested, is the queen (derived from her code name "Q1". But does that mean she is the most important person besides Lelouch? Personally I don't believe so. In fact, I believe this actually works against her overall importance. She may be the most important piece in the "chess game" Lelouch is playing but she is only important in this aspect. Which is in contrast to C.C. as she is free from being Lelouch's pawn, free from being merely a simple chess piece.

Valid point, but Lelouch sees himself as the King, and they are working together on 'the board". She is important for that reason because she struggles with him, CC is to much of a wild card, not being on the board

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-11, 21:25

Can we just drop the damn chess thing? God, we get it. It's so important because Kallen's there. We don't need to have it beat into our heads for Christ's sake. This isn't the damn Kallen board.

Verist

2008-07-11, 21:27

Stargaze

2008-07-11, 21:28

For the last damn time, it was mentioned at one time that the the King Piece was designed after Lelouch and the Queen was after C.C.. Does it mean anything? No. Does it even freaking matter if she's on the board? Does it matter what the hell Kallen is?

Woah, man, hold your horses. I'm responding to Kallen being seen as the queen. If C.C. is the queen then that is another matter as my analysis is based on Kallen being queen.

Does it mean anything? Of course not, why would it? Does ANY of the speculations here mean ANYTHING? I doubt it. Unless you think you know all that is going to happen then that is a different case; not at all speculating. Why do you think I posted in a discussion tread and not a "fact" tread :rolleyes:

Verist

2008-07-11, 21:29

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-11, 21:29

Lol, Dan. You always make it a bit more interesting when you are around. Maybe C.C. was the queen, but Kallen has reached the 8th square and is the new queen through pawn promotion. ;)

Oh be quiet and stop mocking me. I don't give a damn how great it is. There are no upgrades. The Queen piece looks the same as it always did. Again, go to your Kalln thread and talk about how great she is. Don't do it here. Why are you even here? You don't even like C.C.!!!

Ok Dan, back to the Kallen thread I go! I wish I could give you hug Dan!

SHUT UP!!! Just leave me alone...

Verist

2008-07-11, 21:30

Oh be quiet and stop mocking me. I don't give a damn how great it is. There are no upgrades. The Queen piece looks the same as it always did. Again, go to your Kalln thread and talk about how great she is. Don't do it here. Why are you even here? You don't even like C.C.!!!

Dan, you read my mind.. Jinx!!! I said I was going back to the Kallen thread and you typed the same thing! Hey, I don't hate C.C. She just happens to be my second favorite character ;)

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-11, 21:31

Dan, you read my mind.. Jinx!!! I said I was going back to the Kallen thread and you typed the same thing! Hey, I don't hate C.C. She just happens to be my second favorite character ;)

Don't lie to me. And stop thinking this is all some huge joke and acting all happy about it.

Var

2008-07-11, 21:32

Pretty much. If anyone ever tries to say something positive about C.C., even if it's just speculation, you're always there to rip it all apart.

What did I rip apart in my last post? I only saw me giving very sidelined comments about what people are saying.

But, since you insist, here I'll rip apart Asleep: (No I won't, just thought I'd reply.)

Like seiji said all the romance in S2 has been from Kallen's side. She undoubtedly has feelings for Lelouch. But he hasn't reciprocated at all. He would have done the same thing, even if it were Shirley,Milly (or even Nina for that matter), so telling he will come to save her is no love declaration.

To be perfectly fair, all romance from any season from any perceived angle of reality has been from the females side. As for the declaration, it's hard to apply it to uninvolved characters and say the result would have been the same. I doubt it would have been. Kallen is(was) in serious danger from her predicament, what danger could possibly come to those you mentioned? I'm not calling it a declaration of love, as it would be stupid to do so, but it is the first instance in this season (and only one) where we saw Zero and Lelouch begin to mold into one person. If you haven't noticed, that's a pretty big theme in this season and has been getting developed mostly through Kallen's interaction with him.

And since I really love the word, it is a foreshadowing element. But take that as you will as I have no intention of going on a tirade about what will happen.

And Kallen is one of the main characters. But the key words here are one of the main :p How is she the heroine of the show, when she has barely had one line to speak since she was imprisoned?

Your logic failed/my brain exploded when you mentioned line counts. C.C. hasn't spoken since Kallen was captured (mostly) either. Heck, she hasn't spoken for most of this season. Does that make her not the main heroine either?

There is no main heroine in this Season as Kaguya made painfully obvious, as all women in Lelouch's life are important and have their own role. The main heroine is all of them.

From the previous episode, the way Lelou was practically begging for her to live on, he must surely have been in love with her?

No. I tend to beg people to not die when they are close friends of mine, doesn't mean that I want to jump in the sack with them or profess some sort of undying love. The grief of a moment like that can be perversely skewed and called love, but it can hardly be fairly or justifiably shown as such. What I call the moment with Lelouch is grief, extreme grief. But he has never shown actual signs of loving Shirley.
(Yes, I've lost a few friends to their mortal coils, as such, I find it fair to joke about it. So bite me.)

You know, people do love other people like friends, family. And Lelouch is doing the same thing this season. We still don't know who he loves, I bet he also doesn't know. So it's not obvious to us normal people that Lelouch is in love with Kallen, and how KxL will so obviously happen.

*Queue Evangelion TV Ending* You just made a good point. Congratulations. The only thing there is that Lelouch does know who he loves. Her name starts with an 'N' and ends with an 'unally'.

And Lelouch, C.C. (she was watching them), Suzaku and Nunnally were there right from the first scene of the first episode. So IMO they are the essential characters.

A blade of grass was also in that scene, it must be pivotal to the plot too. If you want to say such nonsensical things, then you might as well make note of the fact that Lelouch met Kallen before C.C.. I'm seriously going to start arguing for Suzaku and Lelouch ending if you keep this up. :heh:

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-11, 21:33

What did I rip apart in my last post? I only saw me giving very sided comments about what people are saying.

But, since you insist, here I'll rip apart Asleep: (No I won't, just thought I'd reply.)

You do pretty much all the time. I doubt you are capable of seriously saying anything that isn't negative about C.C.. And most of your comments are sided to Kallen so you are certainly one to talk. I don't see you doing the same thing when people do sided posts about Kallen.

What else is new?

hanseo

2008-07-11, 21:34

kallen fans are trying to take over the cc thread? battle stations

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-11, 21:35

Feh, they already took over the rest of the forum.

Verist

2008-07-11, 21:39

Feh, they already took over the rest of the forum.

Reduce the paranoia!!! Nobody is attacking you or hijacking this thread. I have a serious question about C.C. With whom has she had conversations with, when she appears to be talking to herself? V.V. and Marianne right? I was thinking would this mean Marianne is alive?

GuidoHunter_Toki

2008-07-11, 21:40

All this talk about love interests. Really I don't think Lelouch has a defenite love interest. He seems content on protecting all his "friends" in ashford and of course his big prioritey Nunally. Even the time he asked Kallen to comfort him, that didn't really feel that it came out of romance.

Reduce the paranoia!!! Nobody is attacking you or hijacking this thread. I have a serious question about C.C. With whom has she had conversations with, when she appears to be talking to herself? V.V. and Marianne right? I was thinking would this mean Marianne is alive?

I always thought of it as talking with the dead. SO like talking with a dead Marianne.

Var

2008-07-11, 21:40

Since I don't want to edit that massive post above, I'll just post again. Hopefully some spam will fall into place and not make this a DP. :heh: God may not roll dice, but I sure as hell do.

And the Queen piece was designed after her apparently. But of course, now I'll get yelled at.

This was an edit that I missed. In purpose, use, and roll, Kallen is the Queen. In appearance, being the second in command of the OoBK, C.C. is the Queen. If you never noticed, there are two different metaphors presented in the Queen piece. The aesthetic, C.C.'s role, and the internal, Kallen's role. In the Chess metaphor C.C. is as much the Queen as I am the Queen of Scotland.

So, the fact that the Queen is modeled as C.C. does not really effect the Chess metaphor in anyway. To everyone in the story, she is the Queen of the Black Knights. But within the actual metaphor she is the player. Kallen does not consider herself Lelouch's Queen, hence why she is capable of being jealous of C.C.. Kallen sees herself as a Knight and calls herself such. The Chess metaphor is disjointed with the actual way the characters perceive themselves. Much like how the Arturian metaphor does not directly influence how the characters see themselves.

Your posts are always well thought out and insightful, I always look forward to your responses, even if we disagree. I just wish you would rub off on Seiji..

When have you disagreed with me? :heh:

For the last damn time, it was mentioned at one time that the the King Piece was designed after Lelouch and the Queen was after C.C.. Does it mean anything? No. Does it even freaking matter if she's on the board? Does it matter what the hell Kallen is?

Then why do you keep mentioning it? Read above for my rebutal.

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-11, 21:41

Reduce the paranoia!!! Nobody is attacking you or hijacking this thread. I have a serious question about C.C. With whom has she had conversations with, when she appears to be talking to herself? V.V. and Marianne right? I was thinking would this mean Marianne is alive?

Why are you here then? Why are more than half the posts I see in every thread saying something incredibly positive about Kallen?

It does not mean Marianne is alive. Charles spoke with Clovis in season 1 after he died. It's called talking to the dead. Mao is in the World of C which is likely where Marianne is.

It's V.V., Marianne and a third person I suspect is her giver.

orangejuicetang

2008-07-11, 21:44

Since Charles did talk to Clovis in S1 after Clovis was dead.

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-11, 21:44

Then why do you keep mentioning it? Read above for my rebutal.

My sad attempts. Like you said it doesn't matter. You're right after all as usual. Kallen is the Queen, C.C. was never and never will be (we all know she isn't important and is a horribly written character so how could someone as horrible as her be someone as grand and important as a Queen?).

I don't need to read the rebuttal in full. It just says what I know you will always say. Why are you here?

Since Charles did talk to Clovis in S1 after Clovis was dead.

Yes, I know. Episode 6 I believe.

Var

2008-07-11, 21:45

You do pretty much all the time. I doubt you are capable of seriously saying anything that isn't negative about C.C.. And most of your comments are sided to Kallen so you are certainly one to talk. I don't see you doing the same thing when people do sided posts about Kallen.

What else is new?

Esper will disagree with you as I've been saying many good things about her in our conversations. And, yes, my comments are sided to Kallen. I'm not some objective ultimate god-like being. I am simply a god-like being who happens to like some characters more than others. I have my biases, feel free to call me out on them when they actually make a notable effect on what I post.

Oh, and, point me to a Kallen post that is one sided and makes blanket statements. If I'm not mistaken, I'm one of the few people who even talks about her and Lelouch. The others who do also usually put a good amount of thought into their posts and keep their subjectivity at an arms length.

kallen fans are trying to take over the cc thread? battle stations

Single-line space wasters are taking over this thread.

I have a serious question about C.C. With whom has she had conversations with, when she appears to be talking to herself? V.V. and Marianne right? I was thinking would this mean Marianne is alive?

V.V., Marianne, and some mysterious third individual. Marianne was confirmed dead last I checked.

hanseo

2008-07-11, 21:47

cc is the queen and kallen is the knight feel free to disagree

Var

2008-07-11, 21:47

My sad attempts. Like you said it doesn't matter. You're right after all as usual. Kallen is the Queen, C.C. was never and never will be (we all know she isn't important and is a horribly written character so how could someone as horrible as her be someone as grand and important as a Queen?).

Since I did say that C.C. is also the Queen... you must have completely skipped over what I wrote and simply did a madlib puzzle and then replied.

I don't need to read the rebuttal in full. It just says what I know you will always say. Why are you here?

Now that's borderline insulting. I doubt you can read my mind, and as such, I doubt you have any semblance of an idea as to what I will say or said.

I'm here to have a discussion, or as you put it, rip apart everything because I am a demon.

cc is the queen and kallen is the knight feel free to disagree

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=1721752#post1721752

Is reading some sort of rare talent these days?

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-11, 21:47

Esper will disagree with you as I've been saying many good things about her in our conversations. And, yes, my comments are sided to Kallen. I'm not some objective ultimate god-like being. I am simply a god-like being who happens to like some characters more than others. I have my biases, feel free to call me out on them when they actually make a notable effect on what I post.

Oh, and, point me to a Kallen post that is one sided and makes blanket statements. If I'm not mistaken, I'm one of the few people who even talks about her and Lelouch. The others who do also usually put a good amount of thought into their posts and keep their subjectivity at an arms length.

I rather doubt that. I can't ever argue since you'll never let it go till I lose.

This is funny. Seriously, you are joking, right?

GuidoHunter_Toki

2008-07-11, 21:48

cc is the queen and kallen is the knight feel free to disagree

The only reason this makes sense to me is the fact I believe(correct me if I'm wrong) Lelouch refers to Kallen as being kind of like Zero's knight or protector in one episode. Also she seems some what like a gaurdian as she has saved him on occasions.

orangejuicetang

2008-07-11, 21:49

Single-line space wasters are taking over this thread. Ouch. That slightly hurts. I try to be as helpful as possible even though it may be brief.

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-11, 21:50

Since I did say that C.C. is also the Queen... you must have completely skipped over what I wrote and simply did a madlib puzzle and then replied.

Now that's borderline insulting. I doubt you can read my mind, and as such, I doubt you have any semblance of an idea as to what I will say or said.

I'm here to have a discussion, or as you put it, rip apart everything because I am a demon.

Don't humor me with things I know you don't believe. I skimmed it.

It's rather easy to predict you most of the time in regards to certain things. Same with me.

Var

2008-07-11, 21:50

Ouch. That slightly hurts. I try to be as helpful as possible even though it may be brief.

I was not refering to actual posts, hanseo's post was pretty much spam. Sorry if I offended you. :heh:

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-11, 21:51

He posted a thought and it's spam? Or was it the details of the post?

DarkLordOfkichiku

2008-07-11, 21:52

orangejuicetang

2008-07-11, 21:53

I was not refering to actual posts, hanseo's post was pretty much spam. Sorry if I offended you. :heh:

It's okay, I wasn't being that serious about it

Stargaze

2008-07-11, 21:53

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-11, 21:53

Of course it makes sense. It's Var after all.

And will you seriously knock it off with that icon Dark?!

Oh god Dann, I thought you read my post (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=1721670&postcount=1005) on this subject as Kallen being Queen does not mean that she is important AND frickin threw it back in my face but now you are all depressed again.

I never saw that post.

And I'm always depressed. Being a C.C. fan here, that's a given.

hanseo

2008-07-11, 21:57

The only reason this makes sense to me is the fact I believe(correct me if I'm wrong) Lelouch refers to Kallen as being kind of like Zero's knight or protector in one episode. Also she seems some what like a gaurdian as she has saved him on occasions.

that's what i am talking

Var

2008-07-11, 21:57

Well, Var's statement can make as much sense as anything - that in the overall scheme (if that's the word) of things, C.C. may well be the Queen and Kallen the Knight - but when it comes to battle, Kallen's the Queen and what C.C. is there is hard to say... :uhoh:

That wasn't my complete point. C.C. is the Queen in the eyes of the characters, but she is the player to those with audience priveledge. Kallen is a Knight to the characters, desperately trying to aspire to more in Lelouch's eyes (hence why she did something as stupid as rush out to fight Xing-ke), but a Queen to those with audience priveledge.

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-11, 21:58

Audience view is really all that matters and thus Kallen is more important and apparently the one who derserves to win or some such nonsense.

Stargaze

2008-07-11, 22:05

I don't quite understand, could you explain what this line means?

That wasn't my complete point. C.C. is the Queen in the eyes of the characters, but she is the player to those with audience priveledge.

From what I gathered, it seems that you are saying that C.C. is a player to us but she is seen as the Queen as a character. Is that what you are saying? (forgive me for my lack of English interpretation =.=)

Var

2008-07-11, 22:05

Audience view is really all that matters and thus Kallen is more important and apparently the one who derserves to win or some such nonsense.

No, audience view is only a part of the equation. How the character themselves evolve through interactions is also quite crucial in how a story evolves. A well told story balances both well and uses both well, Code Geass has, so far, not disappointed.

I don't quite understand, could you explain what this line means?

From what I gathered, it seems that you are saying that C.C. is a player to us but she is seen as the Queen as a character. Is that what you are saying? (forgive me for my lack of English interpretation =.=)

Yes, I believe that is what I was saying. The characters within the show see C.C. as the Queen.

GuidoHunter_Toki

2008-07-11, 22:07

Yes, I believe that is what I was saying. The characters within the show see C.C. as the Queen.

You mean by the fact C.C. is always with Lelouch/Zero?

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-11, 22:08

No, audience view is only a part of the equation. How the character themselves evolve through interactions is also quite crucial in how a story evolves. A well told story balances both well and uses both well, Code Geass has, so far, not disappointed.

Yes, I believe that is what I was saying. The characters within the show see C.C. as the Queen.

Well, we already know C.C.'s character can't evolve (and no, I don't need to hear this all from you again as I am quite aware of this fact), so it doesn't matter. Again, I have to question why they haven't just killed her off in season 1 since she's pointless now. Oh well, maybe she can just die in 15 and make everyone happy.

Which of course is a terrible disadvantage for her as usual.

Var

2008-07-11, 22:09

You mean by the fact C.C. is always with Lelouch/Zero?

That, and the fact that she is the Queen (second in command) of the Order. She is by role in the plot the Queen to the characters around her. To the audience, however, she is not a piece on the metaphorical chess board.

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-11, 22:11

And that's a bad thing and shows she's unimportant, I know.

Var

2008-07-11, 22:12

And that's a bad thing and shows she's unimportant, I know.

The pieces on the board are useless without a player to actually use them.

GuidoHunter_Toki

2008-07-11, 22:12

Well, we already know C.C.'s character can't evolve (and no, I don't need to hear this all from you again as I am quite aware of this fact), so it doesn't matter. Again, I have to question why they haven't just killed her off in season 1 since she's pointless now.

Well Nina for the most part is pointless except for giving Milly a little character development, yet she is still alive.

orangejuicetang

2008-07-11, 22:12

No piece apart from the king is completely expendable in a chess match. Being the queen doesn't make you invaluable.

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-11, 22:14

The pieces on the board are useless without a player to actually use them.

Yes, I also know C.C. is nothing but a heartless manipulator.

Well Nina for the most part is pointless except for giving Milly a little character development, yet she is still alive.

Nina as a character is done, but even she is more important than C.C. and a more developed character. Milly even is more developed than her. C.C. needs to die because she is immortal, a hinderence in Kallen's eyes, and because she's done entirely as a character like Shirley.

Besides, most in both the show and the audience want this and would be very happy.

Var

2008-07-11, 22:14

No piece apart from the king is completely expendable in a chess match. Being the queen doesn't make you invaluable.

Depends on the scenario, in the end game that is 'possibly' true. The Queen is invaluable as long as your opponent also has a Queen.

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-11, 22:15

We get it. Kallen is the most important character next to Lelouch. Take it to the Kallen thread.

seiji_kun

2008-07-11, 22:17

Call me stupid but I don't remember Q1 and the King making out ever. Kallen has never kissed Lelouch, nor has Lelouch kissed her.

Also, why would the Knight (key word) of One be his Queen? Most logical people would put the piece called a knight into the knight slot. Charles' Queen was his personal Knight, which was Marianne. If Lelouch and Nunally are even a remote hint, then he was sleeping with his Queen. Unless he has a pregnancy enducing Geass.
Charles: "Have babies!"
Marianne: "Yes, your majesty."
Charles: "Ahahahahahahahahaha!"
V.V.: "We're trading in your Geass for a more useful one."

In this new game, Charles is no longer the king on the board. He is more the prize. The actual king playing is Schneizel now, and his Queen is no one. Cornelia was the Queen in the last Season, but there was no King. Only the OoBK has a King and a Queen.

So what's the point really? What's wrong of me ridiculing someone who was again delusional that the chessboard holds romantic significance. So Schneizel took over, well since I have not so much Geass details as you it seems, (I only really watch the anime) I'm viewing Charles as the king if Lelouch is the king also. Theire the both ones in command imo. You said my sarcasm was off a few days ago, well so is yours tbh.

And pls say what was so wrong with viewing the knight of one as the queen. I viewed it as seeing he is the knight of one he is the best of the knights not? And seeing when I play chess my queen is the strongest force I'd compare the knight of one to him. If it's that wrong then so be it...

Your posts are always well thought out and insightful, I always look forward to your responses, even if we disagree. I just wish you would rub off on Seiji..

I don't think he needs your sucking up to rip on me, he seems the guy to do it if he wishes to do anyway. You need friends to fight your fights?

Besides that I have nothing more to say, you just prooved again your lvl.

orangejuicetang

2008-07-11, 22:18

Depends on the scenario, in the end game that is 'possibly' true. The Queen is invaluable as long as your opponent also has a Queen.
Not true, I'd rather have two rooks than a queen. Or a rook, knight, and bishop. The queen is simply the most powerful individual piece, but simply abusing a single individual piece no matter how powerful is often a bad idea.

hanseo

2008-07-11, 22:20

We get it. Kallen is the most important character next to Lelouch. Take it to the Kallen thread.

no cc is the next important one after lelouch

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-11, 22:22

no cc is the next important one after lelouch

No, she isn't. She is not important. She lost whatever she had last season. She's just here for Pizza Hut advertisements and fanservice. If the polls didn't like her for some reason, she would have been killed a long time ago. I'm sure the staff is puzzled as to why people vote for her.

Var

2008-07-11, 22:23

So what's the point really? What's wrong of me ridiculing someone who was again delusional that the chessboard holds romantic significance. So Schneizel took over, well since I have not so much Geass details as you it seems, (I only really watch the anime) I'm viewing Charles as the king if Lelouch is the king also. Theire the both ones in command imo. You said my sarcasme was off a few days ago, well so is yours tbh.

And pls say what was so wrong with viewing the knight of one as the queen. I viewed it as seeing he is the knight of one he is the best of the knights not? And seeing when I play chess my queen is the strongest force I'd compare the knight of one to him. If it's that wrong then so be it...

The Chess board holds as much romantic significance as it doesn't. My details are not from some external source, I simply emerse myself when I watch something and make connection which I believe to be evident while I watch. Charles is not the King on the board because he is not playing against Lelouch. He has done nothing to oppose his son. Schneizel is the one fighting against Lelouch. Charles is simply watching.

The Knight of One is a Knight, Knights are incredibly powerful pieces holding a very unique ability. But he was never Charles' Queen when Charles' himself was a piece on the board some 21 some odd years ago. Marianne was his Queen. He had romantic relations with his queen. Simple. Charles won his match and is now observing the new players.

I don't think he needs your sucking up to rip on me, he seems the guy to do it if he wishes to do anyway. You need friends to fight your fights?

I have nothing more to say, you just prooved again your lvl.

Since when was this a JRPG with levels?

Not true, I'd rather have two rooks than a queen. Or a rook, knight, and bishop. The queen is simply the most powerful individual piece, but simply abusing a single individual piece no matter how powerful is often a bad idea.

Incorrect. Two rooks are in value only one point more than a Queen and their actual strength is dependant heavily on the status of the game. A queen can hold two rows, two collums, and two diagonals on her own, two rooks can hold only four collumns and rolls. Two rooks are also much easier to fork than a single Queen which is normally impossible to fork unless you are playing against a mental retard. The versitality of a Queen usually trumps the overall strength of two rooks. Also, an opponent with a Queen vs. two Rooks assuming even set up on both sides would have an overall strategic advantage due to the Queen being more mobile, more easily withdrawn or pushed in, and less clustered than a Rook.

So, I'm still going to say that the Queen is invaluable as long as another Queen is present.

seiji_kun

2008-07-11, 22:31

The Chess board holds as much romantic significance as it doesn't. My details are not from some external source, I simply emerse myself when I watch something and make connection which I believe to be evident while I watch. Charles is not the King on the board because he is not playing against Lelouch. He has done nothing to oppose his son. Schneizel is the one fighting against Lelouch. Charles is simply watching.

The Knight of One is a Knight, Knights are incredibly powerful pieces holding a very unique ability. But he was never Charles' Queen when Charles' himself was a piece on the board some 21 some odd years ago. Marianne was his Queen. He had romantic relations with his queen. Simple. Charles won his match and is now observing the new players.

He hasn't done anything to oppose him, so wiping his memory is doing nothing? I won't say it's doing much but I won't say it's doing nothing. Just a question, do you got this on black and white that Schneizel is the king now and whose what piece or is just your interpretation?

Since when is this a JRPG with levels?

Well if you laughed yourself, I'm happy for you cause laughter can even cure cancer. You know what I meant anyway.

Var

2008-07-11, 22:33

He hasn't done anything to oppose him, so wiping his memory is doing nothing? I won't say it's doing much but I won't say it's doing nothing. Just a question, do you got this on black and white that Schneizel is the king now and whose what piece or is just your interpretation?

Opposing him would have been actually killing him, that is how a chess match is played. Everything is interpretation.

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-11, 22:33

Laughter doesn't cure cancer and don't spread lies like that.

Ruezu

2008-07-11, 22:35

No, she isn't. She is not important. She lost whatever she had last season. She's just here for Pizza Hut advertisements and fanservice. If the polls didn't like her for some reason, she would have been killed a long time ago. I'm sure the staff is puzzled as to why people vote for her.

Erm no, she helped in the decision to no let Tianzi (can't spell) marry Xingke. O_o

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-11, 22:36

Erm no, she helped in the decision to no let Tianzi (can't spell) marry Xingke. O_o

Like that matters to any degree. She agreed with several other people who made the same statement. Try again.

And the statement you mean to say is that she stopped Tianzi from being married off to some Japanese person not of her choice.

Verist

2008-07-11, 22:37

]

I don't think he needs your sucking up to rip on me, he seems the guy to do it if he wishes to do anyway. You need friends to fight your fights?

Besides that I have nothing more to say, you just prooved again your lvl.

You know, I almost responded to your other thread, but I didn't. I sent you a PM. I don't need anyone to fight my battles. I happen to respect Var and don't need to kiss up to anyone. Respond to me in PM and quit perpetuating this.

So it seems C.C. can speak with the dead and the living, I thought I was onto something with her only speaking to living people. Thinking maybe the Marianne death was a rouse to set Lelouch into Vendetta mode.

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-11, 22:39

Yes, it probably was a ruse since C.C. is a terrible person who would do such a thing as that since everyone knows she is just some heartless witch who is nothing but an antagonist.

Verist

2008-07-11, 22:45

Yes, it probably was a ruse since C.C. is a terrible person who would do such a thing as that since everyone knows she is just some heartless witch who is nothing but an antagonist.

I'm not saying C.C. is heartless she just might subscribe to the survival of the fittest type doctrine that Charles is talking about. As Charles and V.V. are paired, could it not be Marianne and C.C.? Marianne and C.C.'s agenda is to see that he has the drive to take over the throne. I would not say that makes them evil. Just a tough love scenario

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-11, 22:46

And that makes her a terrible person, I know.

And it has never been confirmed what they want. You do not know that they want him to be on the throne.

seiji_kun

2008-07-11, 22:48

Opposing him would have been actually killing him, that is how a chess match is played. Everything is interpretation.

That's why I said it's not doing much. I could interpretate then again that he just couldn't kill off his own blood. He has that bit of humanity still in him.

And if it's your own interpretation then I'll praise you at actually trying to make something so complicated as CG into a chessboard. I wouldn't want even to indulge myself in it. Don't take this wrong but I could care less bout your crazy theories. I'll rather play tetris then to overanalyze and give myself a headache bout argueing the way you and Dann are.

Laughter doesn't cure cancer and don't spread lies like that.

Would you believe me if I said it I saw it some crappy movie? Or better if it happened in my family??!!

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-11, 22:49

Would you believe me if I said it I saw it some crappy movie? Or better if it happened in my family??!!

It didn't happen with mine and I had to watch as the only person I ever felt close to in my family died when everyone kept telling me to hope for the best.

yezhanquan

2008-07-11, 22:50

Would you believe me if I said it I saw it some crappy movie? Or better if it happened in my family??!!

The right mindset can help a lot, but if you're saying it's the only thing needed, then no, I don't buy it.

Verist

2008-07-11, 22:50

And that makes her a terrible person, I know.

And it has never been confirmed what they want. You do not know that they want him to be on the throne.

Not really, not to get off topic to much but my father once told me before a Wrestling match "Only a mother loves a loser" lol. I don't hate him for it, he was just doing what he thought would push me in the right direction. Many people would think that was a horrible thing for him to say (maybe the would be right), but he was not evil.

I don't know what "they" want, but that could be one outcome.

yezhanquan

2008-07-11, 22:51

The waif witch really needs some time to clear up her little mysteries.

seiji_kun

2008-07-11, 22:53

It didn't happen with mine and I had to watch as the only person I ever felt close to in my family died when everyone kept telling me to hope for the best.

Well If you're really serious, I'm terribly sorry but tbh it's a saying here.

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-11, 22:57

The waif witch really needs some time to clear up her little mysteries.

That's a good insulting word for her all right. And what mysteries? None of them really matter to the plot after all except the bits with Marianne.

Well If you're really serious, I'm terribly sorry but tbh it's a saying here.

I'm entirely serious and that saying just a lie.

yezhanquan

2008-07-11, 22:59

That's a good insulting word for her all right. And what mysteries? None of them really matter to the plot after all except the bits with Marianne.

Her knowledge on the gods will be relevant to the plot, along with the bits of information that she's been holding from Lulu ala Ryuk.

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-11, 23:03

That means practically nothing. She can just tell him things in 15 and be done with it. Or she can try and pull a Ryuk on Lelouch.

Silver Soul

2008-07-11, 23:05

That means practically nothing. She can just tell him things in 15 and be done with it. Or she can try and pull a Ryuk on Lelouch.

I would actually love to see that :D

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-11, 23:06

I would actually love to see that :D

I'm sure you would. And she would fail.

mayaramayana

2008-07-11, 23:12

Well, in the end, C.C. or Lelouch would have to die (at least one of them). If C.C. is going to die, I'm sure all C.C. fans will cry (including me). But I'm sure, C.C. will die with a smile gracing her face.

What we all know is that she was once a normal human. And that through out the centuries, she has been killed so many times. Maybe her wish is to die happily.

At least after all this time, she will have an eternal rest.

BUT , this is just a speculation. All things in this thread are speculations.

Most likely, my speculation is wrong. Remember when Mao wanted to cut her to pieces?

Her face didn't say: "At last, the moment I've been waiting for..."

instead, it said: "This is my punishment for leaving him..."

For the who's the heroine, who's the queen, etc thingy, I would say, she's nothing.

BUT that DOESN'T MEAN that she is not important. This whole series won't happen, progress, and end if she's not the main reason.

She's like the glue that keeps all things connected or the power generator that keeps all thing working.

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-11, 23:15

It will be C.C.. Opening and ending indicate as much as do a lot of other things.

mayaramayana

2008-07-11, 23:26

As for the pairing of the series, they cannot be determined until we see at least episode 22. Speculations about the pairings are so crackable for now. Don't worry, somethings will clear up later.

That means practically nothing. She can just tell him things in 15 and be done with it. Or she can try and pull a Ryuk on Lelouch.

Yeah, at one point you're right. Still, if C.C.'s end is in episode 15, at least, markings of her existence will still echo till the very end.

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-11, 23:27

No they won't. Not in C.C.'s favor anyway.

I don't see why they would. I doubt Lelouch would care that much unless she found some way to screw with his life even in death.

mayaramayana

2008-07-11, 23:46

Yes you're probably right. *Sighs*

C.C. will probably just die and all fans will cry. I'm more interested in her past actually. Hey, have you seen her child form? You know, when she's a kid?

hanseo

2008-07-11, 23:50

dann just stop it

Orga777

2008-07-11, 23:56

Var

2008-07-12, 00:00

Don't let Dann get you down. Keep your views till shown otherwise. Especially when there is lack of solid evidence.;)

And watch, Ep.14 will air and I will have to eat my shoes. :p

mayaramayana

2008-07-12, 00:02

Thank you hanseo, Orga777.

Either way, CLAMP won't throw C.C. away just like that. Although the bulging number of C.C. fans won't be a hindrance for CLAMP to throw her away, it doesn't mean that it's going to be easy to kill her.

Code Geass producer must be very careful in this gamble.

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-12, 00:10

Yes you're probably right. *Sighs*

C.C. will probably just die and all fans will cry. I'm more interested in her past actually. Hey, have you seen her child form? You know, when she's a kid?

Probably.

All fans? Hardly. Yes, I've seen all that.

dann just stop it

Why?

And watch, Ep.14 will air and I will have to eat my shoes. :p

I doubt it when we have info suggesting otherwise.

Thank you hanseo, Orga777.

Either way, CLAMP won't throw C.C. away just like that. Although the bulging number of C.C. fans won't be a hindrance for CLAMP to throw her away, it doesn't mean that it's going to be easy to kill her.

Code Geass producer must be very careful in this gamble.

Um, what does CLAMP have to do with this? They have no say in the show. And the the director is the one who makes decisions and he has stated before he doesn't really care what fans think. Everyone begged him not to kill Euphemia after all.

Orga777

2008-07-12, 00:16

And watch, Ep.14 will air and I will have to eat my shoes. :p

Ha. I will be first in line to see that. :p:heh:

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-12, 00:18

Ha. I will be first in line to see that. :p:heh:

It won't happen since we have info that says otherwise.

mayaramayana

2008-07-12, 00:24

Probably.

Um, what does CLAMP have to do with this? They have no say in the show. And the the director is the one who makes decisions and he has stated before he doesn't really care what fans think. Everyone begged him not to kill Euphemia after all.

Ugh, come on Dann. what does Euphie have to do with GEASS?

C.C., and V.V. have all important things to do with GEASS. Euphie's role is only to be the good princess and later become the target of berserked geass.

Don't put C.C. and V.V. and their giver in the same position as Euphemia.

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-12, 00:25

Ugh, come on Dann. what does Euphie have to do with GEASS?

C.C., and V.V. have all important things to do with GEASS. Euphie's role is only to be the good princess and later become the target of berserked geass.

Don't put C.C. and V.V. and their giver in the same position as Euphemia.

What are you talking about? I was merely saying popularity doesn't mean anything.

And so? All the mysteries are revealed in 15. After that, why have her around?

Orga777

2008-07-12, 00:27

And so? All the mysteries are revealed in 15. After that, why have her around?

Dann, when you are proven wrong on this, you do know how many people will try and lynch you right?:heh:

Elicit

2008-07-12, 00:28

What are you talking about? I was merely saying popularity doesn't mean anything.

And so? All the mysteries are revealed in 15. After that, why have her around?

And it's the very same popularity that allowed the Orange you despise from being totally shanked off last season.

Why not have her around? There's still Charles to deal with, and more likely V.V. will be around to the end. Who else would be a more valuable asset to deal with those two?

yezhanquan

2008-07-12, 00:29

Dann, when you are proven wrong on this, you do know how many people will try and lynch you right?:heh:

I won't bet on all the mysteries being solved by 15. If Sunrise can do 10 eps of pure drama/action/everything but mystery solving, they would have outdone themselves in some time.

On Orange-sama and Euphie, I would say this: I hop onto the CG bandwagon BECAUSE Euphie died. Orange-sama's return is another piece in this puzzle.

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-12, 00:29

Dann, when you are proven wrong on this, you do know how many people will try and lynch you right?:heh:

Um, a summary saying that the mysteries of Geass are revealed in 15 proves I'm wrong?

Elicit

2008-07-12, 00:31

Um, a summary saying that the mysteries of Geass are revealed in 15 proves I'm wrong?

Stop acting stupid; he meant if C.C. is still around, even after Turn 15 might reveal the majority of the Geass mysteries, you will be wrong and tried for verbal lynching.

Orga777

2008-07-12, 00:32

Stop acting stupid; he meant if C.C. is still around, even after Turn 15 might reveal the majority of the Geass mysteries, you will be wrong and tried for verbal lynching.

Thank you. That is exactly what I meant.

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-12, 00:32

And it's the very same popularity that allowed the Orange you despise from being totally shanked off last season.

Why not have her around? There's still Charles to deal with, and more likely V.V. will be around to the end. Who else would be a more valuable asset to deal with those two?

He was kept because the staff liked him.

You tell me. Why keep someone with nothing to contribute? Why keep someone he will hate?

Stop acting stupid; he meant if C.C. is still around, even after Turn 15 might reveal the majority of the Geass mysteries, you will be wrong and tried for verbal lynching.

No I won't. I said they might as well just kill her. If they want to keep her around to advertise, let them.

Orga777

2008-07-12, 00:34

He was kept because the staff liked him.

And because he was the running joke character.:heh:

You tell me. Why keep someone with nothing to contribute? Why keep someone he will hate?

No I won't. I said they might as well just kill her. If they want to keep her around to advertise, let them.

You see, THIS is where you will be wrong. She WILL have more to contribute to the story. Saying this is just ludicrous with no solid proof and THAT is what will get you lynched.;)

mayaramayana

2008-07-12, 00:35

Um, a summary saying that the mysteries of Geass are revealed in 15 proves I'm wrong?

Well, the summary only says that the myseries of Geass are revealed in 15. It doesn't say: ALL mysteries

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-12, 00:36

And because he was the running joke character.:heh:

You see, THIS is where you will be wrong. She WILL have more to contribute to the story. Saying this is just ludicrous with no solid proof and THAT is what will get you lynched.;)

No, it was really because they liked him. I wouldn't call him a joke in 13, would you? They did like his Zero yell in 11 of season 1 though.

Depends on what sort of contribution. I can't think of anything really substantial for her to do and keeping her for the sake of revealing one tidbit of info is pathetic.

Well, the summary only says that the myseries of Geass are revealed in 15. It doesn't say: ALL mysteries

Most of them. We have scans of her as a child and of the things with Marianne and those will come up very soon. The only time it seems things will be happening anytime will be 15. That's all the mysteries.

Elicit

2008-07-12, 00:40

You tell me. Why keep someone with nothing to contribute? Why keep someone he will hate?

No I won't. I said they might as well just kill her. If they want to keep her around to advertise, let them.

You honestly think he's going to keep hating her until the end of the series, even though, truly, his rage should be going primarily to Rolo (which, it is, but, he's also blaming the fact Geass was what made it possible).

And she has things to contribute. Trying to point them out to you would be a waste of time.

No, you said why bother keeping her after most of the mysteries of Geass are shown, therefore, Orga punched you up on that with you being wrong if she still is (which is most likely).

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-12, 00:43

You honestly think he's going to keep hating her until the end of the series, even though, truly, his rage should be going primarily to Rolo (which, it is, but, he's also blaming the fact Geass was what made it possible).

And she has things to contribute. Trying to point them out to you would be a waste of time.

No, you said why bother keeping her after most of the mysteries of Geass are shown, therefore, Orga punched you up on that with you being wrong if she still is (which is most likely).

He'll hate her in 14 because of his rage towards anything about Geass. Could her past bring sympathy? Possibly. Will he still feel bad for her once he learns she has lied to him and kept huge secrets about his mother from him? Doubtful.

I want you to. Please do so if you think there are some that are really that meaningful.

Yes I said that. I don't see the point of keeping her around. If they do, I doubt she'll contribute much at all.

Silver Soul

2008-07-12, 00:48

He'll hate her in 14 because of his rage towards anything about Geass. Could her past bring sympathy? Possibly. Will he still feel bad for her once he learns she has lied to him and kept huge secrets about his mother from him? Doubtful.

I want you to. Please do so if you think there are some that are really that meaningful.

Yes I said that. I don't see the point of keeping her around. If they do, I doubt she'll contribute much at all.

Just in 14 though

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-12, 00:49

Just in 14 though

Just 14 what? That could carry over later and would likely increase. You think he won't be angry with her after learning about her and Marianne?

Silver Soul

2008-07-12, 01:07

Just 14 what? That could carry over later and would likely increase. You think he won't be angry with her after learning about her and Marianne?

But we won't know that until world of c

Esper 28

2008-07-12, 01:08

Wow. *Checks watch* I seriously cannot believe how many posts have been made in the like, 24 hours I last browsed this thread. There is no way I can possibly comment on everything I read, but I would absolutely love to.

First, everyone needs to stop taking Dann so seriously. He's got his twisted thoughts set in stone and there's no way anyone is going to untangle them. He oozes negativity about everything. Just read over his posts and do what I do most of the time, just take a sip of whatever beverage you're drinking and then chuckle a little to yourself before moving on.

The one thing I really want to touch upon is the idea that's being tossed around that C.C. is a "useless" character at this point and, from the sound of some people (yeah, Dann is definitely one of them), doesn't deserve any screen time in R2. Well, to those people, I believe you are absolutely wrong.

C.C. is important to the story of Code Geass for numerous reasons. Many of which are significant and other reasons that are way less significant. Just for the moment, appease me by listening to some of my reasons for saying this.

The most important reason that C.C. is, well, important is because of her influence over Lelouch. Taking the whole Geass concept away and tossing it to the side for a moment, it's undeniable by anyone that C.C. doesn't have an influence on Lelouch. It seems that she sleep in the same quarters as he does and she's probably the only character who is truly comfortable around both Zero and Lelouch. Yes, Rollo and Villeta are somewhat comfortable about Lelouch out of his Zero persona, but I don't know how they would be with him in his Zero outfit. To be honest, I think Rollo's mind doesn't work in that capacity. I really think he would have trouble discerning Lelouch and Zero apart, if by the mask alone. But I digress. If Lelouch is on the fence over something and is really struggling with a choice, I think C.C. would have a very powerful voice on that decision. I also have a running theory that ties in with the Chess theory that was being bounced around a page back or so that deals with C.C. being a manipulator of A LOT. The fact she's almost like a puppeteer goes to the fact that she's the player, not the Queen. Going back to my comparisons between C.C. and Morgan le Faye. She manipulates and directs the currents of the story, even if her hand is invisible, it is surely felt.

In truth, and I put this out there expecting someone to contradict me, but I think C.C. has more of an influence on Lelouch than Kallen does.

My next reason for saying that C.C. is important to the story is because of the Geass. I know what Dann would have everyone believe that her portion of the Geass story is as dried up as a raisen that was left out in the sun for a month, but I disagree. She was the character that introduced us to the Geass power. She is the Geass giver that has spurred our protagonist forward throughout the entire series. Could the Geass plot continue without her? Possibly, but it would make things a hell of a lot harder for Lelouch. Keeping with the Chess analogy, this would be where C.C. acts in the Queen capacity. Her knowledge of all things Geass will be what helps Lelouch prevail once the meat of that story gets brought to the foreground. Sure, there will be things he will have to learn on his own, but there are certain things he must know going in and she is the only person that can provide them for him.

And frankly, I just have to flat out disagree with Dann (I keep saying Dann's name because whenever I go to refute a negative idea, his name is always associated with it in my mind). The Geass storyline will not be summed up in one episode and, I firmly believe, it will be the greater story than Lelouch's war against Britannia. In my discussions with Var, it dawned on me that yeah, Lelouch against the Empire is a big part of the Geass story, but that's not what this show's going to boil down to. No, it's going to be Lelouch against the "gods". And like I said earlier in this thread, I'm really starting to think the gods are heavily involved with the Geass storyline, which in turn involves C.C. and V.V.

Also, lastly, because like I said I can't talk about everything, I want to touch upon C.C.'s role in the Chess analogy more. Var was trying to explain it, but I think it may've been misunderstood or overlooked by some. Basically, and I agree with him wholeheartedly on the topic, C.C. is the Queen. For Ougi, for Toudou, for Kallen, for Larksharta (sp?), and for Xing-ke and for Knightmare Pilot #28, C.C. is Lelouch's Queen. She sits by him on the bridge of their ship, she co-pilots the Gawain with him, she sleeps in his quarters with him. Going along with the first reason why I think C.C. is still important. She influences him in the same manner a Queen would influence the King. To the people in the show, she is his Queen.

But from our point of view, from the analytical viewer's point of view, she is the player. She is the "invisible hand of fate" (Venture Bros. fans around here? Anywhere? No?) that spurs the Order forward, that spurs Lelouch forward. She manipulates her pieces through her King, which would be Lelouch. I can't stress the idea enough that she is manipulating events behind the scenes. She is purposely telling Lelouch some things while omitting others. C.C. has a goal and we may not know what the goal is, but she's definitely working slowly towards it.

Finally, I want to toss out a theory for everyone. What if C.C. and V.V. are working together? What if they both want to take down these "gods"? C.C. is clearly in communication with V.V. and Marianne (who could possibly be part of this plot, as well). I realize now I completely forgot to mention Marianne as a reason for C.C. being important, but I'm including it here now! Go me?!. Anyway, what if the two of them are manipulating their pieces (Go for more Chess analogy!) so that eventually, both the White pieces and the Black pieces will eventually turn against these gods? I really don't think it's that far fetched at all.

There's a lot we don't know about C.C. and I don't think it's fair to count her out of the story just yet. To do so, would be an error in rational thinking, I'd say.

P.S. Kudos to the person who mentioned that Kallen has become a Queen by graduating from Pawn! I said the same thing in the "Var/Esper Discussions". Heheheh. *Doesn't proofreads and just posts 'cause it's too long.*

Silver Soul

2008-07-12, 01:10

P.S. Kudos to the person who mentioned that Kallen has become a Queen by graduating from Pawn! I said the same thing in the "Var/Esper Discussions". Heheheh. *Doesn't proofreads and just posts 'cause it's too long.*
Unless she frees herself from being Lelouch's bitch and stands her own ground she would be a queen but for now she's just another one of his pawns

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-12, 01:12

I wish they had made it so C.C. wasn't always viewed in such a negative light. I suppose they had to make her the heartless manipulator though.

Silver Soul

2008-07-12, 01:15

I wish they had made it so C.C. wasn't always viewed in such a negative light. I suppose they had to make her the heartless manipulator though.

But that's what makes her so popular:rolleyes: uh:uhoh:

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-12, 01:16

But that's what makes her so popular:rolleyes: uh:uhoh:

Oh, right. I forgot that. That does explain a lot. Maybe some people are tired of good people like Kallen and want the truly despicable people to be more popular.

Really though, it isn't possible to say anything good about C.C.. All she oozes is negative vibes and evil. She is nothing more than some manipulative little witch who has ruined lives.

Silver Soul

2008-07-12, 01:19

Oh, right. I forgot that. That does explain a lot. Maybe some people are tired of good people like Kallen and want the truly despicable people to be more popular.

Really though, it isn't possible to say anything good about C.C.. All she oozes is negative vibes and evil.

:uhoh::uhoh::uhoh:she has a great ass:heh:
but besides that imagineliving for so long you get sick and tired of repeating the same process of life over and over again and hopefully episode 15 will shed some life on her past to get a better understanding but really her existence up to this point has been for pure fanservice

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-12, 01:22

:uhoh::uhoh::uhoh:she has a great ass:heh:
but besides that imagineliving for so long you get sick and tired of repeating the same process of life over and over again and hopefully episode 15 will shed some life on her past to get a better understanding but really her existence up to this point has been for pure fanservice

That matters?

You become a monster which is what she is. Having a tragic past doesn't get you off scott free. She isn't probably much better than the people who have hurt her.

Ultimate justice for her would probably be for Lelouch to abandon her. Maybe shoot her a few times like Mao did. Then Charles and V.V. could find her. Maybe V.V. tortures her a bit and then they sacrifice her or something.

She had a sad past. Boo hoo. That gives her the right to manipulate, abandon, and toy with people like objects? My scenario is probably far too kind than what she deserves. Lelouch is a fool if he doesn't hate her. He finally woke up to the facts it seems.

Asleep

2008-07-12, 01:54

Your word is not law. You perceived the moment to be a plus point for C.C.. The chimp sitting at my side, however, thought of it as nothing more than a good target to fling its poo at. Me, on a more civilized side, saw the ED and said, "Interesting." And then moved on. I didn't see it a plus for C.C., just like I didn't see the Suzaku and Lelouch ED scene as a plus for SuzakuxLelouch.
Simply because others do not share your opinion does not make them wrong. One should welcome people to disagree as it spawns conversation and discussion. Blanketing something as 'clearly' only invites people to verbally disagree because they 'clearly' did not see what you did and simply start pouting matches.

I was just trying to show that it if it were Kallen and Lelou, people would have reacted differently. I did not say you were wrong. I am not going to add "In my opinion" before everything I post. If something is posted by me, it will be my opinion, unless stated otherwise. C.C. and Lelouch in the ED means nothing, but the crane Nunnaly throws in the in the OP is supposed to symbolize Kallen going free. You guys will see anything you want to. But when something is obviously there it is just "interesting", because obviously C.C. and Lelouch together in that picture don't mean anything. You just proved the point I was trying to make in my previous post.

Yes, why? Because I didn't consider the Suzaku and Lelouch picture at the end as symbolising some sort of lovers affection between them. I'd be inclined to believe it more if, say, C.C. or Kallen were kissing Lelouch... and not molting.
And seriously, why bring Dann into this? His opinion has become about as respected as a led ball in a floating contest on Jupiter. It's there, you see, it makes loud splashes, but, ultimately, it sinks and is forgotten.
Oh, and a correction I must make, the prominence of the almost kiss scene was not the kiss scene, nor the scene. But the composure, words, and atmosphere (contributed by the ever so timely music) present. You are looking at everything only skin deep. Error 500! But, if you want, you can dismiss me as a hopeless fanboy with a dictionary and a thesaurus.

I didn't see it that way. To me it only showed that Kallen had feelings for him. So in that sense you are right. It had a romantic atmosphere, but it was one-sided.

The truth is this is really the wrong thread. I can predict what will happen, so can anyone else. That doesn't mean they will be right, but a simple death or occurence does not stop everyone's ability of predicting. The spoiler thread is proof of that.
And to be perfectly frank, I do not think it can go either way anymore. I only see two possibilities at this point, and I do not expect anything to change my mind anytime soon. Feel free to disagree.
Yes I will disagree. Code Geass is famous for its twists so even if you don't expect anything different to happen, it probably will.

What did I rip apart in my last post? I only saw me giving very sidelined comments about what people are saying.

But, since you insist, here I'll rip apart Asleep: (No I won't, just thought I'd reply.)

To be perfectly fair, all romance from any season from any perceived angle of reality has been from the females side. As for the declaration, it's hard to apply it to uninvolved characters and say the result would have been the same. I doubt it would have been. Kallen is(was) in serious danger from her predicament, what danger could possibly come to those you mentioned? I'm not calling it a declaration of love, as it would be stupid to do so, but it is the first instance in this season (and only one) where we saw Zero and Lelouch begin to mold into one person. If you haven't noticed, that's a pretty big theme in this season and has been getting developed mostly through Kallen's interaction with him.

And since I really love the word, it is a foreshadowing element. But take that as you will as I have no intention of going on a tirade about what will happen.
Lelouch screamed after Shirley died, but I didn't think it was because he was in love with her. Just as you said, Lelouch has become more er...human this season. He cares for his friends. It has been happening since episode 7. No not the Kallen scene. I mean the fireworks scene. Even after whatever Kallen told him, he had given up. He was happy to find the school "empty", as it would let him mope around. But then he saw his friends waiting for him, and realised there was still more in this world he could fight for. That, not Kallen, made him go back.

Your logic failed/my brain exploded when you mentioned line counts. C.C. hasn't spoken since Kallen was captured (mostly) either. Heck, she hasn't spoken for most of this season. Does that make her not the main heroine either?

There is no main heroine in this Season as Kaguya made painfully obvious, as all women in Lelouch's life are important and have their own role. The main heroine is all of them.

I know C.C. has barely spoken. But I was referring to Dann's post (his posts still mean something to me, so I am not going to ignore them). He said Kallen is the main heroine. So I replied for a heroine, she has been awfully quiet lately. I did not say C.C. was the main heroine. I only said Kallen wasn't. I also thought there was no main heroine. That is what I was trying to show Dann, but you had to come misinterpret my post :p

As for foreshadowing...Lelouch saying he thinks snow is pretty to C.C. in Kallen's presence, or that he will turn into a warlock if C.C. is a witch, could also be viewed as such. And it's not even that subtle.

No. I tend to beg people to not die when they are close friends of mine, doesn't mean that I want to jump in the sack with them or profess some sort of undying love. The grief of a moment like that can be perversely skewed and called love, but it can hardly be fairly or justifiably shown as such. What I call the moment with Lelouch is grief, extreme grief. But he has never shown actual signs of loving Shirley.
(Yes, I've lost a few friends to their mortal coils, as such, I find it fair to joke about it. So bite me.)

You are reading my posts all wrong :p I know. That was exactly my point. That is why Lelouch shouting to come and save Kallen, was also a friend promising to save a friend, nothing more. I gave the Shirely example to show that he cares a lot about his friends now.

*Queue Evangelion TV Ending* You just made a good point. Congratulations. The only thing there is that Lelouch does know who he loves. Her name starts with an 'N' and ends with an 'unally'.

Nunnaly is his sister. I wasn't talking about brotherly love. I said it was unclear who he was in love with, or whether such a person even existed.

A blade of grass was also in that scene, it must be pivotal to the plot too. If you want to say such nonsensical things, then you might as well make note of the fact that Lelouch met Kallen before C.C.. I'm seriously going to start arguing for Suzaku and Lelouch ending if you keep this up. :heh:

The blade of grass wasn't a person. Unless you plan to say Kallen transformed into the blade of grass :p Lelouch, Suzaku and Nunally were friends since they were small. And C.C. was also apparently present there. That is important to me. That makes me believe the writers won't kill them (as much as I am opposed to it *cough* Suzaku). Ultimately it is their story and they will be there till the end. Not that other characters have to die, so don't come and say I said that Kallen will be killed off ;) That is how I see it anyway.

Just out of curiousity, how do you interpret the ed scene? I personally thought that the scene was a scene of separation due to the colours and imagery used but am interested in another opinion. For the record if it was Kallen instead of C.C there I would have the same interpretation :p

A very similar background was used for the Schneizel scene. So I didn't think it was a parting scene. She was crying. So I thought they were comforting each other...as partners. As in, they were there for each other. And I think, both are chained.

Var, your taking the time to respond to every point, made me want to ignore it rather than write back... I almost didn't reply, because it was so long...But I appreciate the way you "tear apart" each line :D

This discussion is meant for another thread, but oh well...

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-12, 01:56

She was changing into a bird and C.C. looks like she is longing to join the birds who are free. She said herself she is chained to this world. Now she is free and going away.

Asleep

2008-07-12, 01:57

She was changing into a bird and C.C. looks like she is longing to join the birds who are free. She said herself she is chained to this world. Now she is free and going away.

ROFL then everyone in the ED is a bird because everyone has wings! Hell, she didn't even have black wings like the black birds :p And look properly almost everyone is chained, including Lelouch. Just like ED1 They all have wings, and are chained. Maybe it means none of them are free and long to fly.

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-12, 01:59

ROFL then everyone in the ED is a bird because everyone has wings! Hell, she didn't even have black wings like the black birds :p

No, they had structures that looked like wings behind them. She actually had them as a part of her body.

Asleep

2008-07-12, 02:02

No, they had structures that looked like wings behind them. She actually had them as a part of her body.

Wings are always a part of the body. Unless they are artificial. Others also have them but it isn't clear because of what they are wearing.

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-12, 02:04

Wings are always a part of the body. Unless they are artificial. Others also have them but it isn't clear because of what they are wearing.

No, I mean that the wings you see with Schneizal and such are aspects of the background that are there to give the illusion they have wings. C.C. is the only one who clearly has the wings as a part of her body and it gives the impression that she is turning into a bird and being free, which is really sort of odd since she doesn't deserve it. Most people seem to believe this view on things.

Asleep

2008-07-12, 02:12

No, I mean that the wings you see with Schneizal and such are aspects of the background that are there to give the illusion they have wings. C.C. is the only one who clearly has the wings as a part of her body and it gives the impression that she is turning into a bird and being free, which is really sort of odd since she doesn't deserve it. Most people seem to believe this view on things.

I don't think so. She is still chained. Why does it matter to you what most people believe? Why can't you form an opinion of your own and stick to it?

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-12, 02:23

I don't think so. She is still chained. Why does it matter to you what most people believe? Why can't you form an opinion of your own and stick to it?

No, Lelouch is the one chained. I see it myself. The more people that agree on an interpretation, the more wait it has. I thought the image was sad the first time I saw it. She looked like she was leaving to me or about to.

Demon will post here soon enough to prove the intepretation is that it is a parting and nothing more.

demon_god04

2008-07-12, 02:25

I don't think so. She is still chained. Why does it matter to you what most people believe? Why can't you form an opinion of your own and stick to it?

C.C is not chained, the chains are wrapped around Lelouch and the ruins in the background but not C.C. The others have wings made of stone in the background and like dann said the way they are positioned make it appear as if they have wings, but if you notice those wings are crumbling as well. And if you look at the expressions, you can see C.C looking up towards where the birds are flying towards with a sense of longing as well. Where as Lelouch is facing down towards the earth and chained to it.

It just makes an interesting discussion, and I was mainly curious as to a C.C fan's interpretation of that scene considering I may be abit biased. :p

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-12, 02:26

Well, most would probably deny an interpretation like the one you have posted even though it's the only one that makes sense.

demon_god04

2008-07-12, 02:28

Well, most would probably deny an interpretation like the one you have posted even though it's the only one that makes sense.

Well, I wouldn't go that far, but to me the colours and the ambiance in the scene is just too melancholic to me for it to be taken in a romantic sense as well. And also factoring the expressions on Lelouch and C.C as well, and the way they are embracing more in a comforting maternal way rather then as lovers would.

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-12, 02:30

demon_god04

2008-07-12, 02:32

Why would anyone consider that a romantic scene? Everyone knows that such a thing with them is not possible at all. Neither feel that way about the other and neither is capable of feeling any different. The scene is sad and a parting. I don't know why Lelouch would be sad to see her go though.

Lelouch is not uncaring towards her, and even if they are not lovers she is someone important to him. At the very least she is someone that has changed his life.

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-12, 02:34

Lelouch is not uncaring towards her, and even if they are not lovers she is someone important to him. At the very least she is someone that has changed his life.

Why would she be important to him? He hates her as we all know and the truth about her and Marianne is not likely to change that. Changed it in a good way? He killed his first love and lost a very precious friend because of the way she changed his life.

Asleep

2008-07-12, 02:39

C.C is not chained, the chains are wrapped around Lelouch and the ruins in the background but not C.C. The others have wings made of stone in the background and like dann said the way they are positioned make it appear as if they have wings, but if you notice those wings are crumbling as well. And if you look at the expressions, you can see C.C looking up towards where the birds are flying towards with a sense of longing as well. Where as Lelouch is facing down towards the earth and chained to it.

It just makes an interesting discussion, and I was mainly curious as to a C.C fan's interpretation of that scene considering I may be abit biased. :p

I was watching it on youtube so it wasn't very clear (my episodes are in another comp). I have now managed to view a larger screencap :p It does look like she is a bird. But I think Lelouch is chained and is trying to stop her. Or it could be that she is the angel (or witch) who gave him geass, as he was chained before she arrived. So he is chained and she is saving him, perhaps...

Did clamp receive any spoilers before making the ED? I wonder if it's their perspective on the characters, or if they had some information.

Esper 28

2008-07-12, 02:40

Just curious...could someone perhaps post a screen capture of the scene you guys are talking about? It would really help the discussion along, I think.

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-12, 02:41

Why stop her? And he'll fail in the end anyway.

Who know? They obviously were given something to make them draw things like this.

Koshimizu

2008-07-12, 02:54

Did clamp receive any spoilers before making the ED? I wonder if it's their perspective on the characters, or if they had some information.No. They receive basic info on what the character is like. Then they draw everything from their personal likings and "because it's pretty this way".

For example, the reason why Rolo has black and white wings is "that looks mysterious". And the reason why V.V. is naked is "can't find clothes suitable for him".

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-12, 03:09

That's actually sort of odd. Then do those images really give any real hints to the show at all?

Asleep

2008-07-12, 03:21

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-12, 03:30

Well, I still don't put her chances as being very high at all with or without the picture.

Koshimizu

2008-07-12, 03:31

Just curious...could someone perhaps post a screen capture of the scene you guys are talking about? It would really help the discussion along, I think.http://pics.livejournal.com/yamisakura38/pic/0002r6kf/s320x240 (http://pics.livejournal.com/yamisakura38/pic/0002r6kf)
Here (http://yamisakura38.livejournal.com/16927.html) are more cleaned up high(er)-res ED pics.

Actually, I don't see the point in looking for reasons in CLAMP's drawings though. This set is even worse than the first set of ED pics, which at least had some consistencies in it. In this set all I can see is the orgasm fangirlism over the word "royal" (look how the princes & princesses each get their own pics) and especially that OMG so very handsome Schinezel. The other peasants Sunrise asked to draw? Meh, just squeeze them all in one pic or two. The clothing is wrong? Whatever. Who cares about an ugly peasant girl? Full orgasm attention on teh prince charming is top priority.

The comments CLAMP gave for the ED1 pics showed their shallowness already. It looks pretty this way. They're nice eye candies. Why try further? :p

wow. I did not know that. Thanks.

Then honestly, it might all be meaningless. C.C. may end up living after all ;)Fun trivia. XD
No one knows the ending other than Ōkouchi and director Taniguchi. Shiratori (Lloyd's VA) tried asking around but non of the staff he contacted knows what will happen in the coming episodes.

mayaramayana

2008-07-12, 07:43

No. They receive basic info on what the character is like. Then they draw everything from their personal likings and "because it's pretty this way".

For example, the reason why Rolo has black and white wings is "that looks mysterious". And the reason why V.V. is naked is "can't find clothes suitable for him".

Haha :D

True, true. You get yourself a point there.

Some ED or OP pictures have no connections at all with the series. This doesn't happen only once. Some animes have this kind of ED or OP.

Ever watch Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei? Some parts of the OP and ED have no connection with the series at all.

I just want to say that C.C. is one of the major characters. What's more, she and V.V. have all Geass related things revolving around them. They're the giver.

Major characters have major positions in a story.

Major positions means either:
a) they control the series

b) they do not control the series but they are the reasons of all things that happened in the series

c) they're the root of the story

Whatever happened to the major characters, WILL have a major impact to the story.

A major impact means a humongous, gigantic change.

And we all know what a humongous, gigantic change means.

To have this humongous, gigantic change you have to think all things through.

That is the hardest part of all; to make a humongous, gigantic change.

..........

(get my point?)

.........

What I mean is, it's going to be very hard to throw C.C. just like that.

You have to put all things into your considerations.

Now, do you get the point? You don't have to anyway. It's just an opinion :p

Silver Soul

2008-07-12, 07:59

Hey Clovis was CLAMP'S favorite character and he was the first person to get killed off, it proves that all CLAMP do is design the characters and have very little with the actually story and if it were them Lelouch and Suzaku would have alot of yaoi moments in the series as a whole

mayaramayana

2008-07-12, 08:11

mayaramayana

2008-07-12, 08:23

Second season's ED and OP have little to do with the series.

Yet, this doesn't really imply to the first season's.

In the second ED of the first season, there's a picture of C.C. on a cliff. At the background was a castle.

In my opinion, this has something to do with the series since this scenery was shown in one of C.C.'s memory.

You can check this in season one's episode 11 and is shown again in episode 25.

Do you guys have any ideas or opinions about this?

Silver Soul

2008-07-12, 08:55

mayaramayana

2008-07-12, 09:09

True true.

Spoilers are all around S1 OPs and EDs. While in S2 you only see CLAMP's rampaging appetite in drawing Code Geass chara in 'interesting' positions.

Silver Soul

2008-07-12, 09:12

True true.

Spoilers are all around S1 OPs and EDs. While in S2 you only see CLAMP's rampaging appetite in drawing Code Geass chara in 'interesting' positions.

Exactly do we really need characters with wings all around the screen (this isn't X)
although I made an interpretation on the ending a while back but after all this it seems they were for naught as it was just there for sure display of CLAMP style than any sort of plot significance

mayaramayana

2008-07-12, 09:22

True true.

Back with some findings I found.

Is the R2 in Code Geass Hangyaku no Lelouch R2 has a meaning.

If I'm correct, I recall C.C. to be called as Code R by the people who experimented her.

Does this have something to do with the R2 in the season 2?

Opinions please!

demon_god04

2008-07-12, 09:36

I was watching it on youtube so it wasn't very clear (my episodes are in another comp). I have now managed to view a larger screencap :p It does look like she is a bird. But I think Lelouch is chained and is trying to stop her. Or it could be that she is the angel (or witch) who gave him geass, as he was chained before she arrived. So he is chained and she is saving him, perhaps...

Did clamp receive any spoilers before making the ED? I wonder if it's their perspective on the characters, or if they had some information.

Generally when something is depicted in a more of a "saviour" perspective, they would be looking at the one they are saving or in this case perhaps also depicted as coming down from above in a more "angelic" way. The colours they would use would also be less subdued as well, perhaps not exactly bright and vibrant but atleast to give the scene a more uplifting feeling and to contrast the ruins that Lelouch is chained to and give the sense that C.C "came from above" to save him to keep the "angel" theme. Lelouch could be seen as saving her, yet from his expression which is showing a more resigned expression rather then a more determined face if he is really resolved to stop her. And again, he is not looking at her, but rather his eyes are closed, seemingly in resignation or depression and facing towards the earth, while C.C is comforting him and looking towards the sky in longing.

No. They receive basic info on what the character is like. Then they draw everything from their personal likings and "because it's pretty this way".

For example, the reason why Rolo has black and white wings is "that looks mysterious". And the reason why V.V. is naked is "can't find clothes suitable for him".

Well I'm not saying we should hold the op and ed as gospel or something, it is just fun to interpret. And really their basic info on C.C's character may be more then what we have gotten so far in the series... :heh:

Var

2008-07-12, 09:45

I was just trying to show that it if it were Kallen and Lelou, people would have reacted differently. I did not say you were wrong. I am not going to add "In my opinion" before everything I post. If something is posted by me, it will be my opinion, unless stated otherwise. C.C. and Lelouch in the ED means nothing, but the crane Nunnaly throws in the in the OP is supposed to symbolize Kallen going free. You guys will see anything you want to. But when something is obviously there it is just "interesting", because obviously C.C. and Lelouch together in that picture don't mean anything. You just proved the point I was trying to make in my previous post.

You're using the wrong words to denote opinion. The word 'clearly' is not what one would use when presenting a humble opinion. The word is contradictory to the idea of an opinion but clear things are not opinions, they are obvious facts.

If you'd bother looking back I never (seriously, only in joking form) said Kallen was the crane, I simply hypothesized that considering where the show stands that it is likely her. It may turn out to be a martian for all I know, but it is unlikely all things considered. And... the ED does mean nothing, it never has. The OP is really the only source of somewhat reliable foreshadowing and symbolism.

I didn't see it that way. To me it only showed that Kallen had feelings for him. So in that sense you are right. It had a romantic atmosphere, but it was one-sided.

I never said Lelouch reciprocated her feelings, but the scene was romantic if only for her.

Yes I will disagree. Code Geass is famous for its twists so even if you don't expect anything different to happen, it probably will.

I'm sorry but Code Geass is not notorious for some unwitting twists that'd make me eat my hat out of surprise. Most everything has been foreshadowed well in advance of it occuring. People have simply come to expect the unexpected and made the expected unexpected. And once the episode airs everyone slaps their forehead for not expecting what normally would be expected. Ockham's razor.

Lelouch screamed after Shirley died, but I didn't think it was because he was in love with her. Just as you said, Lelouch has become more er...human this season. He cares for his friends. It has been happening since episode 7. No not the Kallen scene. I mean the fireworks scene. Even after whatever Kallen told him, he had given up. He was happy to find the school "empty", as it would let him mope around. But then he saw his friends waiting for him, and realised there was still more in this world he could fight for. That, not Kallen, made him go back.

He hadn't given up. Kallen did return his resolve as he was ready to follow after her, that requires resolve. The school gave him more reason to fight for himself and not just everyone else. It is silly to diminish Kallen's role in the Episode as she was the one who saved him from himself. Had she not been there he'd be off the deep end and tripping down memory lane. Why is this always forgotten? She was the one who pulled him up to the surface, had she not gone to find him, the scene with the school would never have occured, C.C. would have lost her contract, and the show would have ended.

As for foreshadowing...Lelouch saying he thinks snow is pretty to C.C. in Kallen's presence, or that he will turn into a warlock if C.C. is a witch, could also be viewed as such. And it's not even that subtle.

The scene in the cave did foreshadow something, its called jealousy. That scene has, for better or worse, already served its purpose. The symbolism from him saying he'd be the warlock was also overturned by C.C. herself when she spoke of not wanting Lelouch to be anything but a human. It showed that she cared enough for him to not want him to follow on her condemned path.

Var, your taking the time to respond to every point, made me want to ignore it rather than write back... I almost didn't reply, because it was so long...But I appreciate the way you "tear apart" each line :D

This discussion is meant for another thread, but oh well...

I make sure to devote an adequate time to someone's reply. Otherwise I might as well just ramble like most people do and never actually make a point while attacking the poster for reasons XYZ.

hanseo

2008-07-12, 12:01

seriously when are we going to see cc pilot somemore

Silver Soul

2008-07-12, 12:04

seriously when are we going to see cc pilot somemore
Why? she was no match for spinzaku and she teamed up with Chiba to take down Modred there's not much to her piloting abilities

demon_god04

2008-07-12, 12:06

Why? she was no match for spinzaku and she teamed up with Chiba to take down Modred there's not much to her piloting abilities

To be fair, Mordred was just hovering there with it's shield on, it is not like they could so anything fancy to her.

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-12, 12:09

Kallen's the main pilot of this show and C.C. isn't really that good. There isn't much point in having her pilot anything.

Silver Soul

2008-07-12, 12:11

Kallen's the main pilot of this show and C.C. isn't really that good. There isn't much point in having her pilot anything.

Yeah who gave you the idea that Kallen is the main pilot of the show

k//eternal

2008-07-12, 12:13

Yeah who gave you the idea that Kallen is the main pilot of the show

I can't tell if this is a joke.

hanseo

2008-07-12, 12:18

i thought suzaku is main pilot of the show since it's all about suzaku and lelouch

Dream_Traveller

2008-07-12, 12:20

So Kallen's piloting in both R1 and R2 has been ignored? Gee. :rolleyes:

Tokkan

2008-07-12, 12:20

Suzaku and Kallen are both the main pilots. Together. On opposite sides. This is even emphasised by the focus on the Guren and Lancelot in the recent OP.

Silver Soul

2008-07-12, 12:24

So Kallen's piloting in both R1 and R2 has been ignored? Gee. :rolleyes:

Uh, no but does the show focus on her all the time or just because Lelouch is piloting his KMF does that make him the main pilot of the series considering he sucks at it compared to Suzaku and Kallen

Dream_Traveller

2008-07-12, 12:24

...Does piloting matter in this show as much as character roles do?

Silver Soul

2008-07-12, 12:29

...Does piloting matter in this show as much as character roles do?

If that were the case Suzaku and Kallen would be the main characters instead

Kushi

2008-07-12, 13:08

Geez, you guys take the ending images too seriously. If we were supposed to take it seriously, does that mean it'll be a Rivalz X Villeta ending? [They're draw next to each other in the ending sequence. =P]

Asleep

2008-07-12, 14:03

You're using the wrong words to denote opinion. The word 'clearly' is not what one would use when presenting a humble opinion. The word is contradictory to the idea of an opinion but clear things are not opinions, they are obvious facts.

If you'd bother looking back I never (seriously, only in joking form) said Kallen was the crane, I simply hypothesized that considering where the show stands that it is likely her. It may turn out to be a martian for all I know, but it is unlikely all things considered. And... the ED does mean nothing, it never has. The OP is really the only source of somewhat reliable foreshadowing and symbolism.

I didn't think I spoke for everyone when I wrote something. Like I said before, when I post something it's automatically my opinion. You misinterpreted it. You thought I was putting it out as a fact. Even if I was, that it is a fact, is still only my opinion. Most of the time, the so called "facts" are only different viewpoints. What is a fact to me, might be rubbish to you. And since we have no real answers, we can't prove otherwise.

I don't think the OP is very reliable either. If it is, by the looks of it, Kallen is going to switch sides.

I'm sorry but Code Geass is not notorious for some unwitting twists that'd make me eat my hat out of surprise. Most everything has been foreshadowed well in advance of it occuring. People have simply come to expect the unexpected and made the expected unexpected. And once the episode airs everyone slaps their forehead for not expecting what normally would be expected. Ockham's razor.

But the way you understood things could be different from what they wanted to put across. Since we can only interpret things according to our perspectives, it may surprise us in the end. Not shock but a mild surprise is possible. Like if Lelou ends up with Suzaku or even Milly I'd be pretty shocked :p So that is not possible. The thing is, nothing is clear at all. It's is not obvious if it will be Kallen or C.C. It could be anybody or nobody. Shirley might come back from the dead for all we know. :heh:

He hadn't given up. Kallen did return his resolve as he was ready to follow after her, that requires resolve. The school gave him more reason to fight for himself and not just everyone else. It is silly to diminish Kallen's role in the Episode as she was the one who saved him from himself. Had she not been there he'd be off the deep end and tripping down memory lane. Why is this always forgotten? She was the one who pulled him up to the surface, had she not gone to find him, the scene with the school would never have occured, C.C. would have lost her contract, and the show would have ended.

She did help him by throwing away the refrain he was going to take. But he was going to go after her because he hurt his friend by treating her so disrespectfully. He was snapped out of his lowly behaviour. He wanted to use her as an object; when she slapped him, he realised how he was behaving. But she did not give him reason enough to fight. Or Rolo wouldn't have been able to drag him back. He wasn't out of his depression until later, when he met his friends at the school. The whole glass dialogue is him realising he loves his friends and wants a better world for them. She did save him from taking the drug, but she did not give him enough reason to go on as Zero. He was back to his gloomy self, - although not as extreme as before, he was still wallowing in self-pity. It's important that she stopped him from taking the drug, but that in itself was not enough.

The scene in the cave did foreshadow something, its called jealousy. That scene has, for better or worse, already served its purpose.

The cave scene implied to me he liked C.C. Since the white snow stands for her, and he said he likes snow, doesn't hate it. Kallen was jealous alright, but I am talking about what Lelouch said here.

The symbolism from him saying he'd be the warlock was also overturned by C.C. herself when she spoke of not wanting Lelouch to be anything but a human. It showed that she cared enough for him to not want him to follow on her condemned path.

When did she say that? I must have forgotten, can you tell me exactly when she spoke of such a thing? You don't leave a person alone when they hate them self. Although I don't think she hates herself, but she does think she is an evil witch. The fact that she dislikes herself, makes me want her to be happy. Because by the looks of it she has always been alone and sad...

Generally when something is depicted in a more of a "saviour" perspective, they would be looking at the one they are saving or in this case perhaps also depicted as coming down from above in a more "angelic" way. The colours they would use would also be less subdued as well, perhaps not exactly bright and vibrant but atleast to give the scene a more uplifting feeling and to contrast the ruins that Lelouch is chained to and give the sense that C.C "came from above" to save him to keep the "angel" theme. Lelouch could be seen as saving her, yet from his expression which is showing a more resigned expression rather then a more determined face if he is really resolved to stop her. And again, he is not looking at her, but rather his eyes are closed, seemingly in resignation or depression and facing towards the earth, while C.C is comforting him and looking towards the sky in longing.

That makes sense I guess :)

Well I'm not saying we should hold the op and ed as gospel or something, it is just fun to interpret. And really their basic info on C.C's character may be more then what we have gotten so far in the series... :heh:

What ever little information, they have they can't know if she is longing to die...I think only the two of them know how she will end up.

Rising Dragon

2008-07-12, 14:03

Var

2008-07-12, 14:21

I don't think the OP is very reliable either. If it is, by the looks of it, Kallen is going to switch sides.

Where in the OP is this even shown? The Lancelot and Guren are shown facing off.

But the way you understood things could be different from what they wanted to put across. Since we can only interpret things according to our perspectives, it may surprise us in the end. Not shock but a mild surprise is possible. Like if Lelou ends up with Suzaku or even Milly I'd be pretty shocked :p So that is not possible. The thing is, nothing is clear at all. It's is not obvious if it will be Kallen or C.C. It could be anybody or nobody. Shirley might come back from the dead for all we know. :heh:

So far, nothing that has happened in this show has surprised me, or caught me off guard. My point is that the show has never done anything outrageously out of the blue, everything has had adequate foreshadowing if you look for it. As such, it is unlikely that unforeshadowed things would occur.

She did help him by throwing away the refrain he was going to take. But he was going to go after her because he hurt his friend by treating her so disrespectfully. He was snapped out of his lowly behaviour. He wanted to use her as an object; when she slapped him, he realised how he was behaving. But she did not give him reason enough to fight. Or Rolo wouldn't have been able to drag him back. He wasn't out of his depression until later, when he met his friends at the school. The whole glass dialogue is him realising he loves his friends and wants a better world for them. She did save him from taking the drug, but she did not give him enough reason to go on as Zero. He was back to his gloomy self, - although not as extreme as before, he was still wallowing in self-pity. It's important that she stopped him from taking the drug, but that in itself was not enough.

Did I ever say she snapped him out of his depression? I said that without Kallen nothing else would have occured, as such I believe you are belittling her role rather unfairly. She pulled him off his self-destructive path, that is all and that is what was important.

The cave scene implied to me he liked C.C. Since the white snow stands for her, and he said he likes snow, doesn't hate it. Kallen was jealous alright, but I am talking about what Lelouch said here.

As am I, and Lelouch said it while Kallen was present, which is why I mentioned Kallen and the foreshadowing of her jealousy.

When did she say that? I must have forgotten, can you tell me exactly when she spoke of such a thing? You don't leave a person alone when they hate them self. Although I don't think she hates herself, but she does think she is an evil witch. The fact that she dislikes herself, makes me want her to be happy. Because by the looks of it she has always been alone and sad...

Oh please, she has not always been alone and sad. She had a child she loved and loved her back for years, and she is the one who destroyed that child. She has made herself be alone, no one has forced it onto her. Mao loved her with every fiber of his being and she still left him. She is not seeking happiness, she is seeking a different desire.

As for when she said it; IIRC it was the end of the Season. I don't quite recall but I can always check.

hanseo

2008-07-12, 14:30

it's so sad that the cc thread is full of cc hate

Stretch5920

2008-07-12, 15:11

it's so sad that the cc thread is full of cc hate

well maybe if she stopped advertising for pizza hutt and actually did something people wouldn't bitch

demon_god04

2008-07-12, 15:19

That makes sense I guess :)

What ever little information, they have they can't know if she is longing to die...I think only the two of them know how she will end up.

Well it is just my interpretation of it, if you find my interpretation of the scene lacking in somewhere or just plain out of context then feel free to say something. I am an evil and biased Kallen fan after all. :p:heh:

Well, it is not necessarily means she dies or something nor am I implying as such. Just that rather then the scene being some indication of C.C x Lulu, it can be interpreted as something quite opposite. ;)

Asleep

2008-07-12, 16:53

Where in the OP is this even shown? The Lancelot and Guren are shown facing off.

She appears with Gino, Anya and Nina.

So far, nothing that has happened in this show has surprised me, or caught me off guard. My point is that the show has never done anything outrageously out of the blue, everything has had adequate foreshadowing if you look for it. As such, it is unlikely that unforeshadowed things would occur.

But you think it foreshadows LxK and I think it is hinting at LxC In that way either one of us could be wrong.

Did I ever say she snapped him out of his depression? I said that without Kallen nothing else would have occured, as such I believe you are belittling her role rather unfairly. She pulled him off his self-destructive path, that is all and that is what was important.

And you are giving her too much importance. She is as important as his other friends. Whatever she did would have been useless if the others weren't at the school. It's the same thing. Both the scenes were equally significant.

As am I, and Lelouch said it while Kallen was present, which is why I mentioned Kallen and the foreshadowing of her jealousy.

Lelouch's words could be foreshadowing a LxC ending, while Kallen's jealousy could mean unrequited love.

Oh please, she has not always been alone and sad. She had a child she loved and loved her back for years, and she is the one who destroyed that child. She has made herself be alone, no one has forced it onto her. Mao loved her with every fiber of his being and she still left him. She is not seeking happiness, she is seeking a different desire.

Mao did not love her. She was the only person unaffected by his geass. He had no one else. He needed her. He depended and clung on to her. That is not love. Some crazy obsessed person is not in love! And who likes someone who wants you to babysit them all the time?

We don't know what her wish is and how important it is. Maybe there was a reason she gave him geass. And he couldn't handle his geass. She wants the contract to be fulfilled at whatever cost. It is important to her for some reason. More important than anything else. She puts it above everything else. She didn't even want Lelouch to kill Mao (after he almost cut her into pieces), but in the end she had no choice but to do it herself. She is living for a sole purpose, that hasn't been revealed to us yet.

As for when she said it; IIRC it was the end of the Season. I don't quite recall but I can always check.
Please do so. I am not saying it didn't happen, but I can't remember any such thing. So I'd like to confirm it.

mayaramayana

2008-07-12, 17:29

Well, we don't have to take everything seriously. At least in my continent, Asia, it's Sunday already. Just a few hours more, Code Geass R2 ep. 14 will air. I expect something to be revealed here.

Also, notice in Code Geass season 1 2nd OP, at 01.43 to 01.48, you can see a pale hand waving (?) or asking for help (?) don't know....

And right at 1.48, you'll see a man silhouette with a geass sigil behind him.

If some of you asked: "I thought the OP and ED have nothing to do with it?"

my answer will be: "That only imply mostly to those from season 2."

Why don't you guys try to check it?

Endrance

2008-07-12, 17:33

it's so sad that the cc thread is full of cc hate

so true it reminds me of the ichigoXrukia Ichigoxorihime thread:heh:

Avira

2008-07-12, 18:58

well maybe if she stopped advertising for pizza hutt and actually did something people wouldn't bitch

It's almost as bad as the Kallen fan-service abuse was.:(

In season 1 she was the main female character and now she's just sort of...disapearing.
But if they just leave her aside or simply decide to kill her off in the next 2-3 episodes they would be very very stupid.
Because of her the whole thing( Geass, contract, Black Knights, evil Lelouch:love:) started. She is the geass giver.
It started with her, and it will probably end with her.

orangejuicetang

2008-07-12, 19:28

it's so sad that the cc thread is full of cc hate

Similar to how the Suzuku thread was full of Suzuku hate? Though recently it has died done some, apart from the occasional random "Suzuku should die because I hate him" posts.

Aquaman OS

2008-07-12, 19:38

Who doesn't disappear for stretches of time now? Lelouch, thats about it. C.C. Kallen, Suzaku, Rolo, and just about every other characters vanishes when they aren't around Lelouch this season. They get maybe a few minutes of screentime. So it's not surprising C.C. hasn't been around lately. This looks like its finally going to stop soon since the show will probably start centering on a single location rather than jumping around between Ashford, China, Japan, and Britannia.

demon_god04

2008-07-12, 19:44

Well I would say in C.C's case it wasn't so much the location as much as the fact that they don't seem to include her in many scenes that do not involve geass. Though It will change soon when we finally get into the geass plot, which is about time.

kk2extreme

2008-07-12, 19:51

i would ask cc which pizzas is the best in pizza hut and i would but them in a regular basis. We need more scenes with cc and pizza.

Var

2008-07-12, 20:20

She appears with Gino, Anya and Nina.

And we see the Mordred on Lelouch's side. So what is your point? You're grasping at straws to make a point that is countered by the rest of the OP.

But you think it foreshadows LxK and I think it is hinting at LxC In that way either one of us could be wrong.

No I don't. I never said it foreshadowed KallenxLelouch, I said it foreshadows everything we've seen occur.

And you are giving her too much importance. She is as important as his other friends. Whatever she did would have been useless if the others weren't at the school. It's the same thing. Both the scenes were equally significant.

Not quite, order of events is important in literature with the more important event facilitating later occurences. It is not uncommon for the most important occurence to open doors that finalize the impact of the original event. Kallen started it, they finished it. A finish cannot exist without a start, but a start can exist without a finish.

Lelouch's words could be foreshadowing a LxC ending, while Kallen's jealousy could mean unrequited love.

If we're going to take those words into account as some sort of foreshadowing for a pairing, we might as well say that C.C. doomed to die because of what she promised to Mao. You cannot just dub something a foreshadowing without actual reason or support. It does not matter what a person's opinion is if it has no backing, otherwise I could say that the first episode foreshadowed a LelouchxSuzaku end.

The reason I said it was foreshadowing her jealousy is because, in the same episode or the one right after (I do not recall), we have a Kallen moment that reflects back on the cave scene. This chain continues into S2 and culminates at Episode 10 where it reaches it maximum and results in her getting captured. There is actual development in the plot to support the theory of jealousy, there is no such (as the scene is never mentioned by either C.C. or Lelouch again) for the Lelouch and C.C. foreshadowing.

Mao did not love her. She was the only person unaffected by his geass. He had no one else. He needed her. He depended and clung on to her. That is not love. Some crazy obsessed person is not in love! And who likes someone who wants you to babysit them all the time?

I cannot believe that you are arguing that Mao did not love her. She was his mother, she was the only family and friend he ever knew. His obsession over her was based on love that was made perverse by her abandonment and his unstable psyche. Your diminishment of Mao is quite biased as he was C.C.'s child for the years that she was taking care of him. You can see it in the inflection in her voice, and in the flashbacks of the two. They loved one another. Or are you going to tell me that the scene of child Mao and C.C. hugging while sleeping in a broken building was not love?

We don't know what her wish is and how important it is. Maybe there was a reason she gave him geass. And he couldn't handle his geass. She wants the contract to be fulfilled at whatever cost. It is important to her for some reason. More important than anything else. She puts it above everything else. She didn't even want Lelouch to kill Mao (after he almost cut her into pieces), but in the end she had no choice but to do it herself. She is living for a sole purpose, that hasn't been revealed to us yet.

Which is why I believe that she has far higher priorities than hunting love from a disillusioned teen. She is a hedgehog with one objective.

Please do so. I am not saying it didn't happen, but I can't remember any such thing. So I'd like to confirm it.

Will do when I get home or some such.

Verist

2008-07-12, 20:26

I agree there is to much hate here on the C.C. board, you guys just need a better defense! If you talk trash on the Kallen board you get your life threatened ;)

Witacume

2008-07-12, 20:47

I agree there is to much hate here on the C.C. board, you guys just need a better defense! If you talk trash on the Kallen board you get your life threatened ;)

LOL VAr is our ace in the hole with Kallen. i'm simply Like Ougi still important but never will be as big and important.

demon_god04

2008-07-12, 20:58

I wouldn't say this is hate, whats going on is a debate, it is not like either side is just flaming eachother or stating their claims without backing them up. It is not hating on something when you disagree you know. :p

ccmemories

2008-07-13, 00:42

i've been wondering but how did a discussion on who C.C. really is to a debate who's the main female character of the show to how each character thread should have a defense o.O

ccmemories

2008-07-13, 00:44

I agree there is to much hate here on the C.C. board, you guys just need a better defense! If you talk trash on the Kallen board you get your life threatened ;)

er...i've seen kallen trash talk on the kallen board and i'm pretty certain those people are still alive ;)

Asleep

2008-07-13, 01:50

And we see the Mordred on Lelouch's side. So what is your point? You're grasping at straws to make a point that is countered by the rest of the OP.

So? Anya may switch sides too. She seems to have some connection with Lelouch. We'll see about that when it airs. You can't ignore that what I said is actually there in the OP. It might be temporarily, or they might all work together. Unless we have seen more episodes it's hard to say.

No I don't. I never said it foreshadowed KallenxLelouch, I said it foreshadows everything we've seen occur.
ok I have already forgotten what we were talking about here :p

Not quite, order of events is important in literature with the more important event facilitating later occurences. It is not uncommon for the most important occurence to open doors that finalize the impact of the original event. Kallen started it, they finished it. A finish cannot exist without a start, but a start can exist without a finish.
A start would be meaningless without the end. He would still have been depressed. He wouldn't want to wear the mask again without the fireworks scene. He would still have been left hanging. She only pushed him a little, the fireworks scene is what did it. That is why I said, both were equally important.

If we're going to take those words into account as some sort of foreshadowing for a pairing, we might as well say that C.C. doomed to die because of what she promised to Mao. You cannot just dub something a foreshadowing without actual reason or support. It does not matter what a person's opinion is if it has no backing, otherwise I could say that the first episode foreshadowed a LelouchxSuzaku end.
I actually thought C.C. was going to die, after what she said to Mao. Or it can tell she wants to die. Not necessarily will die. It shows she is living for something, and once it's over, she thinks she has no other purpose but to die. And how is that no reason? So what the characters say have no meaning? They have deliberately put those words there. It can't be meaningless.

The reason I said it was foreshadowing her jealousy is because, in the same episode or the one right after (I do not recall), we have a Kallen moment that reflects back on the cave scene. This chain continues into S2 and culminates at Episode 10 where it reaches it maximum and results in her getting captured. There is actual development in the plot to support the theory of jealousy, there is no such (as the scene is never mentioned by either C.C. or Lelouch again) for the Lelouch and C.C. foreshadowing.

Since we are still on the 13th episode (with the 14th coming out today) you can't say it doesn't foreshadow a LxC ending. It could easily be both. C.C. hasn't really played an active role the season. But things may change. It looks like something they would save for the last episodes.

I cannot believe that you are arguing that Mao did not love her. She was his mother, she was the only family and friend he ever knew. His obsession over her was based on love that was made perverse by her abandonment and his unstable psyche. Your diminishment of Mao is quite biased as he was C.C.'s child for the years that she was taking care of him. You can see it in the inflection in her voice, and in the flashbacks of the two. They loved one another. Or are you going to tell me that the scene of child Mao and C.C. hugging while sleeping in a broken building was not love?
C.C. loved Mao. That is why even after he almost killed her, she didn't want Lelou to kill him. But after the geass Mao had only C.C. It had isolated him from the world. C.C. was the only person unaffected by his geass. It was natural for him to cling to her. Even more so, since he was so little. If there was only one person you were able to talk to since you were young, and they were kind to you, you would love them. We are talking about a child here, who had no one else. He had no family and C.C. was his only family. If he didn't need her, I doubt he would love her. And he had gone mad by the time he met C.C. again. Without her he literally couldn't exist normally. From him C.C. was his world, he had no other choice.

It's the same as someone breaking up with someone, and them turning into a stalker, on a different level. The stalker also loved them when they were going out. The one being stalked also thought there was something there, to have gone out with them in the first place. But in the end it wasn't love it was a mad fixation. Even if Mao loved her (because of his need) when he was little, when he grew up it had turned into an obsession. Then insane lovers who always (and by always I mean every second) want to be by their loved one's side are also in love with them? That is called obsession not love. I can't believe you are calling it love. He needed her to be by his side to function normally. How is it love?

Which is why I believe that she has far higher priorities than hunting love from a disillusioned teen. She is a hedgehog with one objective.

She does have higher priorities. I suppose that is what the main story of Code Geass is about. Killing the Gods or whatever. Such people put petty things like love aside, in view of the bigger picture. Which is why it is sad. She thinks that is all she is alive for and then she can die (from what she told Mao, to wait for him).

Will do when I get home or some such.
ok thanks.

Var

2008-07-13, 05:32

So? Anya may switch sides too. She seems to have some connection with Lelouch. We'll see about that when it airs. You can't ignore that what I said is actually there in the OP. It might be temporarily, or they might all work together. Unless we have seen more episodes it's hard to say.

Ep.14 disagrees with you as well. As I said, there is no shown foreshadowing for Kallen changing sides.

ok I have already forgotten what we were talking about here :p

That nothing in this show occurs without adequate foreshadowing.

A start would be meaningless without the end. He would still have been depressed. He wouldn't want to wear the mask again without the fireworks scene. He would still have been left hanging. She only pushed him a little, the fireworks scene is what did it. That is why I said, both were equally important.

A start allows for many ends, an end requires a start. You cannot say what would have happened when you don't know. Kallen's actions opened the door for a lot of possibilities, one of them being the fireworks. For all we know, if the fireworks hadn't happened, Lelouch could have found another reason and Shirley might not be dead now. Possibilities are infinite when you have a starting point.

I actually thought C.C. was going to die, after what she said to Mao. Or it can tell she wants to die. Not necessarily will die. It shows she is living for something, and once it's over, she thinks she has no other purpose but to die. And how is that no reason? So what the characters say have no meaning? They have deliberately put those words there. It can't be meaningless.

As I said, the meaning of words has to have some logical backing to considered as the reason for the words being spoken. C.C.'s line to Mao, for instance, undermines possible romantic undertones to her conversations with Lelouch because the line shows that she has an agenda and that her heart has pretty much frozen over. This only applies to moments before it, so everything before Ep.15 likely had another purpose. And, as I said, the cave scenes seems more indicative of Kallen's perpetually developing jealousy than some sort of lovers bond between Lelouch and C.C..

Since we are still on the 13th episode (with the 14th coming out today) you can't say it doesn't foreshadow a LxC ending. It could easily be both. C.C. hasn't really played an active role the season. But things may change. It looks like something they would save for the last episodes.

They can't save Lelouch and C.C. for the last episode because it would have utterly no development. Right now, no pairing has much development and if everything were to end and that pairing occur I'd laugh. Things need to occur between the characters to make it believable, as such, they cannot be saving everything for the end if they want a C.C. end.

C.C. loved Mao. That is why even after he almost killed her, she didn't want Lelou to kill him. But after the geass Mao had only C.C. It had isolated him from the world. C.C. was the only person unaffected by his geass. It was natural for him to cling to her. Even more so, since he was so little. If there was only one person you were able to talk to since you were young, and they were kind to you, you would love them. We are talking about a child here, who had no one else. He had no family and C.C. was his only family. If he didn't need her, I doubt he would love her. And he had gone mad by the time he met C.C. again. Without her he literally couldn't exist normally. From him C.C. was his world, he had no other choice.

I'm not quite sure how you can use that to argue against Mao loving C.C.. If she hadn't given him the powers but had still picked him up off the streets, he'd have still come to love her. She was his mother, no ifs ands or buts. The power he was given simply turned his love into an obsession, as those two can often cross borders. Unless you mean that if the two had never met under the circumstances he'd have not come to love her... which is a duh. Everything is about coincidence of encounter in this show.

It's the same as someone breaking up with someone, and them turning into a stalker, on a different level. The stalker also loved them when they were going out. The one being stalked also thought there was something there, to have gone out with them in the first place. But in the end it wasn't love it was a mad fixation. Even if Mao loved her (because of his need) when he was little, when he grew up it had turned into an obsession. Then insane lovers who always (and by always I mean every second) want to be by their loved one's side are also in love with them? That is called obsession not love. I can't believe you are calling it love. He needed her to be by his side to function normally. How is it love?

It was love. Just like how the stalker once loved the person they stalked. It was love, but was driven perverse by seperation. That is what happened to Mao. He loved her so much so that his love turned into an obsession.

She does have higher priorities. I suppose that is what the main story of Code Geass is about. Killing the Gods or whatever. Such people put petty things like love aside, in view of the bigger picture. Which is why it is sad. She thinks that is all she is alive for and then she can die (from what she told Mao, to wait for him).

So then how can you argue that she is at all interested in Lelouch?

Endrance

2008-07-13, 05:50

The point with Mao's type of love is kinda like how if you show some wacko some kindness and they obsessively love you. Its basically obsession/desperation not actual love

Esper 28

2008-07-13, 06:02

There are many different types of love. I don't think Mao loved C.C. in the, "I wanna have a family with you" way. I think he loved her in the, "You're the only one who can take care of me" way.

In other words, there wasn't a romance between Mao and C.C., but a love that was different than that. Of course, for Mao it came across as creepy stalker dude, but that was because he was strung out as a result of his Geass. He wanted her to be with him in order to take care of him, in order to comfort him, and because nobody else could do these things for him. At least, that was my whole take on the relationship.

The point with Mao's type of love is kinda like how if you show some wacko some kindness and they obsessively love you. Its basically obsession/desperation not actual love

I don't think that's fair to Mao. C.C. raised and nurtured him. I feel like you're comparing it to giving a bum on a dollar and then he follows you for several blocks begging for more. It's not like that at all and I kind of feel bad for Mao that you think of it that way. :(

Endrance

2008-07-13, 06:03

Dont get me wrong i feel for mao too but i think he needed c.c because he didnt have anyone else his powers wouldnt work on

Var

2008-07-13, 06:05

Dont get me wrong i feel for mao too but i think he needed c.c because he didnt have anyone else his powers wouldnt work on

But he still loved her, as Esper said. In no way am I saying he loved her romantically, but he did love her like a child loves it mother.

Esper 28

2008-07-13, 06:08

Dont get me wrong i feel for mao too but i think he needed c.c because he didnt have anyone else his powers wouldnt work on

I think you're right, but I don't think that means that what he felt wasn't true love. Think of it this way, if an orphaned child with, say, a disability, is taken by a woman living alone and raises that child because, truth be told, nobody else wants to raise him, does that mean the feelings he feels for his adoptive mother aren't real? Just because she's the only one he has, doesn't mean his feelings are false or any less authentic than the child who has everyone in the world taking care of him.

I'll agree that having only one person doesn't exactly make for an optimal psychological situation, but it doesn't make his feelings invalid.

You know, I almost brought up the Hitchcock film Psycho while talking to Mao. Perhaps I should have because I think it's somewhat applicable to Mao, no?

Endrance

2008-07-13, 06:10

I think you're right, but I don't think that means that what he felt wasn't true love. Think of it this way, if an orphaned child with, say, a disability, is taken by a woman living alone and raises that child because, truth be told, nobody else wants to raise him, does that mean the feelings he feels for his adoptive mother aren't real? Just because she's the only one he has, doesn't mean his feelings are false or any less authentic than the child who has everyone in the world taking care of him.

I'll agree that having only one person doesn't exactly make for an optimal psychological situation, but it doesn't make his feelings invalid.

You know, I almost brought up the Hitchcock film Psycho while talking to Mao. Perhaps I should have because I think it's somewhat applicable to Mao, no?

I never looked at it that way but you explaining it actually makes me see your point

Asleep

2008-07-13, 17:20

Ep.14 disagrees with you as well. As I said, there is no shown foreshadowing for Kallen changing sides.

But the OP shows that. Why put Kallen with Gino and Anya? Then the OP might be wrong.

A start allows for many ends, an end requires a start. You cannot say what would have happened when you don't know. Kallen's actions opened the door for a lot of possibilities, one of them being the fireworks. For all we know, if the fireworks hadn't happened, Lelouch could have found another reason and Shirley might not be dead now. Possibilities are infinite when you have a starting point.

Even if Kallen hadn't stopped him, a lot of things could have happened to save him. Maybe Rolo was waiting for Lelouch to finish talking to Kallen.Then, Rolo would have stopped him from taking refrain. Or his thoughts could have distracted him suddenly. Or someone else could have come and stopped him, who didn't, because they saw Kallen over there.

Probabilities are unlimited at any given time. Many beginnings can reach the same end. I can write a whole book on what ifs. Which is why I am saying both were important. It could have played out in infinite number of ways with infinite starting points and outcomes. A lot of things could have happened but they didn't. We are talking about what did happen. And there, both the scenes were important.

As I said, the meaning of words has to have some logical backing to considered as the reason for the words being spoken. C.C.'s line to Mao, for instance, undermines possible romantic undertones to her conversations with Lelouch because the line shows that she has an agenda and that her heart has pretty much frozen over. This only applies to moments before it, so everything before Ep.15 likely had another purpose. And, as I said, the cave scenes seems more indicative of Kallen's perpetually developing jealousy than some sort of lovers bond between Lelouch and C.C..

Kallen was jealous, but something made her jealous. She saw that there is a close connection between Lelouch and C.C. Even in the episode she gets captured, she gets jealous of him discussing his plans with her. Lelouch and C.C. are close (they are partners, even if professional). It could still be foreshadowing her jealousy and Lelouch's and C.C.'s growing bond.

C.C. is not cold, she acts cold. She thinks she doesn't have anything to live for. She thought no one could care for her. Remember when she said Lelouch was the first one to ever thank her? I think that scene establishes a love triangle.

They can't save Lelouch and C.C. for the last episode because it would have utterly no development. Right now, no pairing has much development and if everything were to end and that pairing occur I'd laugh. Things need to occur between the characters to make it believable, as such, they cannot be saving everything for the end if they want a C.C. end.
C.C. played a much bigger role in the 14th episode. She might play an active role now. Everything isn't going to end at the 14th episode. There still might be room for development. There is nothing romantic going on now. They might even chuck the whole thing, and leave Lelouch single at the end.

I'm not quite sure how you can use that to argue against Mao loving C.C.. If she hadn't given him the powers but had still picked him up off the streets, he'd have still come to love her. She was his mother, no ifs ands or buts. The power he was given simply turned his love into an obsession, as those two can often cross borders. Unless you mean that if the two had never met under the circumstances he'd have not come to love her... which is a duh. Everything is about coincidence of encounter in this show.

It was love. Just like how the stalker once loved the person they stalked. It was love, but was driven perverse by separation. That is what happened to Mao. He loved her so much so that his love turned into an obsession.

Little Mao did love C.C., though he had no choice but to love her. He wasn't able to form any relationship with anyone else. He wouldn't have needed her as much if he didn't have his geass. He wouldn't have become so attached to her, if he was able to interact with other people. It wouldn't reach to madness, if there were other people in his life.

A stalker never loved the person they stalked. Not being able to live without someone is one thing, but to go out and harm them is completely different. If someone can drive a person that insane, that they want to kill them if they don't want to be with them, then they need to see a shrink.

According to me love is when you are able to give the person some space, not smother them for your own needs. Obsession is selfish love, hence I wouldn't call it love. They don't care about the other person, as long as their needs are being served. That is what Mao had become.

So then how can you argue that she is at all interested in Lelouch?

I don't think she intended to fall in love with him. Marianne teases her about Lelouch, but she always ends it with that can't possibly happen, it's just a contract, nothing else. There have been many instances of this. She is just lying to herself.

Tokkan

2008-07-13, 19:43

I don't think she intended to fall in love with him. Marianne teases her about Lelouch, but she always ends it with that can't possibly happen, it's just a contract, nothing else. There have been many instances of this. She is just lying to herself.

You get Marianne teasing her for "loving Lelouch" when such things have only been brought up to her by the "Third Person" in season one, and seemingly the recent conversation in Turn 14 which also brought up the issue of Lelouch doing things... is also with the "Third Person"?

Pretty every one of Marianne's conversations with C.C. have been about her caring for Lelouch when she should, not teasing or "love". The teasing we've seen so far has been from the "Third Person" (Stage 12 and possibly Turn 14) and V.V. (Stage 19).

Though, I'm beginning to suspect that we're going to see who this "Third Person" soon, considering if if was indeed him/her that C.C. was talking to in Turn 14, then C.C. asking when he/she was going to enter the fray and do something actually suggests some future activity and maybe even exposure.

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-13, 20:23

Look, C.C. doesn't love Lelouch. She never did and never will. So stop. Please stop trying to put forth a lie. I'm starting to think C.C. is going to kill Lelouch and have herself die anyway.

Endrance

2008-07-13, 20:25

C.C did seem kinda jealous about Lelouch going on a date with shirley... im just sayin

hanseo

2008-07-13, 20:27

Look, C.C. doesn't love Lelouch. She never did and never will. So stop. Please stop trying to put forth a lie. I'm starting to think C.C. is going to kill Lelouch and have herself die anyway.

hahahaha that's so untrue

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-13, 20:31

C.C did seem kinda jealous about Lelouch going on a date with shirley... im just sayin

And that means something important? It was back in season 1 anyway.

hahahaha that's so untrue

Which part? Can you prove me wrong? C.C. talked of ending the Geass lineage. She can finish off herself and Lelouch and get rid of it for good. Nothing is going to happen. It's not possible for it to happen. It never was in the first place except fans seeing something that was never there in the first place. Back in season 1 it was possible. It isn't anymore. Nothing will happen.

morbosfist

2008-07-13, 20:37

You're being far too pessimistic to be credible. Though she may not love him, she cares for him. Centuries of life may have made her fairly flippant about the fact, but nevertheless she has demonstrated on a number of occasions (Lelouch being depressed, for example).

It's good that you have your opinion and all, but you try being a little less aggressive about it. You're not absolutely right until it happens.

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-13, 20:41

I'm not pessimistic. I'm realistic. All I really see is her taking care of her ticket to her wish being granted.

And I'm right about LelouchXC.C. not happening and never really having any sort of chance. No one is going to argue with that except for the few here who actually still support that pairing.

DeotoxSlayer

2008-07-13, 20:50

I'm not pessimistic. I'm realistic.

I'm sorry Dann but if you ask anyone on this forum that knows you they' most likely say your a pessimist

And I'm right about LelouchXC.C. not happening and never really having any sort of chance. No one is going to argue with that except for the few here who actually still support that pairing.

No your not, stop talking as if you have any proff at all, all you base your arguement is on your clouded opinion. Maybe if you actually had credible proof or a good arguement it would be more correct but you don;t.

The fact that your saying your right pisses me off, your not a God or omnicient so stop saying bull shit like that. You don't know anything more than any other person on this site and that is a fact. you don't know nothing about how Code Geass is going to end and you sure as hell don't know anything about what the writer of Code Geass is thinking.

cors8

2008-07-13, 20:52

And I'm right about LelouchXC.C. not happening and never really having any sort of chance. No one is going to argue with that except for the few here who actually still support that pairing.

You're not right until the writers say you're right at the end of the series.

hayato

2008-07-13, 20:55

You're not right until the writers say you're right at the end of the series.

Well I read somewhere no third season is happening, or maybe I got the information wrong... but I think people can speculate the outcome in the next 3-4 episodes. Also, I don't believe C.C. is interested in Lelouch, maybe support/friendship thoughts, thats about it.

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-13, 21:00

I'm sorry Dann but if you ask anyone on this forum that knows you they' most likely say your a pessimist

No your not, stop talking as if you have any proff at all, all you base your arguement is on your clouded opinion. Maybe if you actually had credible proof or a good arguement it would be more correct but you don;t.

The fact that your saying your right pisses me off, your not a God or omnicient so stop saying bull shit like that. You don't know anything more than any other person on this site and that is a fact. you don't know nothing about how Code Geass is going to end and you sure as hell don't know anything about what the writer of Code Geass is thinking.

It's the same thing as being a realist.

No, I base my argument on the fact that nothing has happened, he hates her, and several other things. Do you have anything to say I'm not right? You're in the minority here of people who do then.

Look, if they were going to have something happen, there would have been at least a hint of it. Anything. and Lelouch hates Geass and her now. Nothing is going to happen. Hell, I would love to be wrong. But it isn't very likely to happen.

You're not right until the writers say you're right at the end of the series.

You honestly think there is even a sliver of a chance that happening at all? After finding out he hates her?

Well I read somewhere no third season is happening, or maybe I got the information wrong... but I think people can speculate the outcome in the next 3-4 episodes. Also, I don't believe C.C. is interested in Lelouch, maybe support/friendship thoughts, thats about it.

No, there is no third season.

She isn't interested in him either. You are one of many who saw reality.

kk2extreme

2008-07-13, 21:03

did she eat all the pizza on the table? she could potentially win pizza eating championship.

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-13, 21:05

Why are you using spoiler tags? And we've known she could eat that much for a while.

kk2extreme

2008-07-13, 21:07

Why are you using spoiler tags? And we've known she could eat that much for a while.

lighten up man, i wasn't that serious, way to kill the mood:(

Mr.Mo

2008-07-13, 21:07

Although, like dann said it won't happen, it would be really funny if in the end some emotional/romantic/tragic scene revealed their love for each other XD. Like Lulu dying happily in C.C.'s arms and they kiss and then the end. >.<

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-13, 21:08

lighten up man, i wasn't that serious, way to kill the mood:(

Well, I was more curious as to why you used spoiler tags.

Although, like dann said it won't happen, it would be really funny if in the end some emotional/romantic/tragic scene revealed their love for each other XD. Like Lulu dying happily in C.C.'s arms and they kiss and then the end. >.<

Yeah, that won't happen. The best one could hope for is for her to do something on her part before she disappears/dies/whatever. Lelouch isn't ever going to have those sort of feelings for her. You don't go from hating someone enough to want them dead to loving them.

hayato

2008-07-13, 21:10

kk2extreme

2008-07-13, 21:11

Well, I was more curious as to why you used spoiler tags.

im just being cautious, thank you very much!:mad: I dont want another warning on me.

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-13, 21:13

If that happens I'll delete every Code Geass related material off my hard drive.. half/kidding.

Oh, another hater then? Welcome.

im just being cautious, thank you very much!:mad: I dont want another warning on me.

Subs have been out for a while and something like that doesn't seem too big of a spoiler.

hanseo

2008-07-13, 21:14

Well, I was more curious as to why you used spoiler tags.

Yeah, that won't happen. The best one could hope for is for her to do something on her part before she disappears/dies/whatever. Lelouch isn't ever going to have those sort of feelings for her. You don't go from hating someone enough to want them dead to loving them.

yeah that last part GSD proves you wrong

hayato

2008-07-13, 21:16

Oh, another hater then? Welcome.

Well I prefer the ending to be intelligent, not looking for a happy ending, for that I can watch any other normal random anime. And thanks for the welcome.

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-13, 21:16

yeah that last part GSD proves you wrong

I've never watched that awful show. And that proves nothing. This is not GSD and it has a completely different director. Next?

Well I prefer the ending to be intelligent, not looking for a happy ending, for that I can watch any other normal random anime. And thanks for the welcome.

Happy can't be intelligent. Tanigucho doesn't do happy endings. He does realitically happy endings. And you know animes that have happy endings? I thought those all died out. The good ones anyway.

DeotoxSlayer

2008-07-13, 21:17

I've never watched that awful show. And that proves nothing. This is not GSD and it has a completely different director. Next?

I think what he means is that it is possible. It has happened before in similar instances etc.

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-13, 21:19

I think what he means is that it is possible. It has happened before in similar instances etc.

And GSD is a good example? A competent anime doesn't do things that fast and this show isn't the type to do things that fast. Kallen hasn't been resolved either which automatically makes it impossible.

hayato

2008-07-13, 21:23

And you know animes that have happy endings? I thought those all died out. The good ones anyway.

Yeah some died, nowadays is all about which anime shows more b00bs/@$$ than anything... can get any happier than that I suppose... that is for a normal viewer's point of view.

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-13, 21:24

Yeah some died, nowadays is all about which anime shows more b00bs/@$$ than anything... can get any happier than that I suppose... that is for a normal viewer's point of view.

I'm sick of shows pulling that. I'm sick of fanservice being such a huge part of everything as well.

Chaos2Frozen

2008-07-13, 21:26

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-13, 21:32

Dann, I've got a question; Do you have a CC/Lelouch radar on you or something? One that allows you to burst onto the scene all Zero-like and make yourself known to snuff out anyone's will to post the moment the alarm bells start ringing?

No, I usually happen to be around when someone posts something positive about it. If Var or someone else hasn't already proved them wrong, I just add my thoughts. I'm sick of people talking about it. It's better if whatever is left gives up.

Rising Dragon

2008-07-13, 21:37

I'm sick of people talking about it.

And we're sick of you bitching about it and sick of you telling us to give it up and what not. You're not the boss of us, and we can feel whatever we want. You're not one of the writers and you're not Taniguchi. So until you offer us concrete, definitive proof, on paper or on an official site and not just your conjecture on particular scenes, shut the hell up about Kallen and how C.C. isn't a possibility.

Chaos2Frozen

2008-07-13, 21:42

No, I usually happen to be around when someone posts something positive about it.

Oh I see, just "happens" to be around, got cha ;)

*wink/thumbs-up*

While I'm sure it makes you feel like a big man inside, please reframe yourself from doing it every bloody time someone says something in that direction. After all, you wouldn't like that done on your beloved Kallen now would you?

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-13, 21:43

And we're sick of you bitching about it and sick of you telling us to give it up and what not. You're not the boss of us, and we can feel whatever we want. You're not one of the writers and you're not Taniguchi. So until you offer us concrete, definitive proof, on paper or on an official site and not just your conjecture on particular scenes, shut the hell up about Kallen and how C.C. isn't a possibility.

What do you care? You weren't even someone who liked it or supported it so you aren't among those my message is directed to. I'm not trying to be the boss. I'm trying to give a helpful suggestion to anyone who believes in this so they can give up now.

Rising Dragon

2008-07-13, 21:47

What do you care? You weren't even someone who liked it or supported it so you aren't among those my message is directed to. I'm not trying to be the boss. I'm trying to give a helpful suggestion to anyone who believes in this so they can give up now.

That's just it, you're not being helpful! And yes, I'm not a C.C.xLelouch fan, you already know my preferred pairing and how Sunrise pretty much raped that. But every time you start in with this "It'll never happen" shit you're doing nothing but baiting people into a fight about it, and you can't say "No I'm not" because that's what happens EVERY DAMN TIME. So do us a favor and shut the hell up about it.

cors8

2008-07-13, 21:47

What do you care? You weren't even someone who liked it or supported it so you aren't among those my message is directed to. I'm not trying to be the boss. I'm trying to give a helpful suggestion to anyone who believes in this so they can give up now.

The message has been delivered. If they don't choose to follow it, then drop it.

You're just speculating yourself. While what we've seen so far may lean toward your opinion, it's not a fact and there are still episodes that haven't aired that could make your opinion null and void.

morbosfist

2008-07-13, 21:47

That's not a helpful suggestion. It amounts to "I'm right and you're not."

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-13, 21:48

Oh I see, just "happens" to be around, got cha ;)

*wink/thumbs-up*

While I'm sure it makes you feel like a big man inside, please refrain from doing it every bloody time someone says something in that direction. After all, you wouldn't like that done on your beloved Kallen every single time now would you?

Knock it off. I'm serious. I spend time here often. I don't bother with every post.

No, it doesn't. And you think Kallen is my beloved? This is quite hilarious. I'm not a Kallen fan. I've never been a Kallen fan. Her being with Lelouch is the very last thing I have to see in this series. I'm a C.C. fan and a LelouchXC.C. fan. Being those doesn't mean I have to believe in something when I know it won't happen.

And people say I need to get my facts right…

That's not a helpful suggestion. It amounts to "I'm right and you're not."

If that is how I come across, I don't mean to.

DeotoxSlayer

2008-07-13, 21:51

If that is how I come across, I don't mean to.

I'm sorry but that statements a load of bull. I look at some of the posts in the last 2 pages of this thread most of your posts have "I'm Right, what you say is wrong" or "abandon all hope because i'm right and your opinions are pointless" type sentences in them and thats a fact.

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-13, 21:53

I'm sorry but that state ments a load of bull. I look at some of the posts in the last 2 pages of this thread there are most of your posts have "I'm Right, what you say is wrong" or "abandon all hope because i'm right and your opinions are pointless" type sentences in them.

Do they actually say exactly that? I've worded them wrong then. And it's not like I'm the only one who thinks this way.

Chaos2Frozen

2008-07-13, 21:54

Knock it off. I'm serious. I spend time here often. I don't bother with every post.

No, you only bother with two types of post; One is actual speculations and confirmed spoilers, the second is C.C.

No, it doesn't. And you think Kallen is my beloved? This is quite hilarious. I'm not a Kallen fan. I've never been a Kallen fan. Her being with Lelouch is the very last thing I have to see in this series. I'm a C.C. fan and a LelouchXC.C. fan. Being those doesn't mean I have to believe in something when I know it won't happen.

And people say I need to get my facts right…

Lol, I'm sorry, I just had to make you say that again... :p Oh yeah, that's annoying too.

GIVE IT UP ALREADY! Everyone here knows that you're playing for the other team :D! The only person you're kidding is yourself!

What is it, they got better cookies than us or something :p ?

(Wait a minute, doesn't that make you Suzaku :twitch:?)

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-13, 21:58

No, you only bother with two types of post; One is actual speculations and confirmed spoilers, the second is C.C.

Lol, I'm sorry, I just had to make you say that again... :p Oh yeah, that's annoying too.

GIVE IT UP ALREADY! Everyone here knows that you're playing for the other team :D! The only person you're kidding is yourself!

What is it, they got better cookies than us or something :p ?

That sounds about right, yes.

Enough people get that wrong that I'm used to it.

Give up what? Listen, you may think I'm some diehard Kallen fan, but you'd be wrong. Anyone who is familiar with me to any large degree knows I'm anything but a fan of Kallen or her ending up with Lelouch. I've enjoyed her being gone.

Us? I don't follow.

DeotoxSlayer

2008-07-13, 22:01

That sounds about right, yes.

Enough people get that wrong that I'm used to it.

Give up what? Listen, you may think I'm some diehard Kallen fan, but you'd be wrong. Anyone who is familiar with me to any large degree knows I'm anything but a fan of Kallen or her ending up with Lelouch. I've enjoyed her being gone.

Us? I don't follow.

I've known you for quite a while and I know you hate Karen and you support LelouchxC.C but even i'm not sure if you were just fooling us. As all your posts are so contradictory that your reminding me of Season 1 Suzaku.

Chaos2Frozen

2008-07-13, 22:02

I've known you for quite a while and I know you hate Karen and you support LelouchxC.C but even i'm not sure if you were just fooling us. As all your posts are so contradictory that your reminding me of Season 1 Suzaku.

It's good roleplaying actually, now with a real life example, people would know why Suzaku stepped on our toes last season...

Enough people get that wrong that I'm used to it.

I know, it's your 'thing'.

Give up what? Listen, you may think I'm some diehard Kallen fan, but you'd be wrong. Anyone who is familiar with me to any large degree knows I'm anything but a fan of Kallen or her ending up with Lelouch. I've enjoyed her being gone.

*pat pat*

Sure sure, I'll play along...

Us? I don't follow.

'Us' Dann, 'us'...

We are a fraternity, join us...

hayato

2008-07-13, 22:06

Everyone here knows that you're playing for the other team :D! The only person you're kidding is yourself!

Well this is mainly the C.C. thread, any speculations/ideas/thoughts are welcome as long as they are related to the purpose of the thread, right? If he believes in what he believes, as long as it has the word "C.C." in it, I think that's good enough to make a point in this thread.

Also, not to turn this place sour, no matter how you look at it, there's no way Lelouch will end up with C.C., I mean realistically it can't happen, maybe it can in some fanbook, but I really doubt it can happen at this point. But seen how the show has proved me wrong before, maybe something will happen later on; but yeah I am wishing it doesn't happen.

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-13, 22:07

I've known you for quite a while and I know you hate Karen and you support LelouchxC.C but even i'm not sure if you were just fooling us. As all your posts are so contradictory that your reminding me of Season 1 Suzaku.

Well, I'm not. I still don't get LelouchXKallen. Contradictory? How so? I like LelouchXC.C. and C.C.. Doesn't mean I have to believe that she'll get development, screentime, or a chance with Lelouch.

I know, it's your 'thing'.

*pat pat*

Sure sure, I'll play along...

'Us' Dann, 'us'...

We are a fraternity, join us...

Thing?

You're hopeless. I'm not playing or fooling anyone.

Fraternity of what?

Also, not to turn this place sour, no matter how you look at it, there's no way Lelouch will end up with C.C., I mean realistically it can't happen, maybe it can in some fanbook, but I really doubt it can happen at this point. But seen how the show has proved me wrong before, maybe something will happen later on; but yeah I am wishing it doesn't happen.

Don't worry then. It won't. And if you're a LelouchXKallen fan, you very likely made the right choice since there is no competition.

hayato

2008-07-13, 22:11

And if you're a LelouchXKallen fan, you very likely made the right choice since there is no competition.

Well, it was my first choice back in season one, but when looking at how things are turning, I think is going more solo'ish for Lelouch..

Dann of Thursday

2008-07-13, 22:12

Well, it was my first choice back in season one, but when looking at how things are turning, I think is going more solo'ish for Lelouch..

Meh, if it's open in the end and she still has feelings of some sort, you're at least the only ones who have a chance.

Var

2008-07-13, 23:53

But the OP shows that. Why put Kallen with Gino and Anya? Then the OP might be wrong.

Perhaps the OP denotes people who exist on both sides of Lelouch? Perhaps it shows us that these four characters will have the most impact on the main characters or the most impact on the story? No where does it say it denotes people who switch sides... because, quite frankly, that theory got shot in the forehead with a .5mm when Nina was shown.

Even if Kallen hadn't stopped him, a lot of things could have happened to save him. Maybe Rolo was waiting for Lelouch to finish talking to Kallen.Then, Rolo would have stopped him from taking refrain. Or his thoughts could have distracted him suddenly. Or someone else could have come and stopped him, who didn't, because they saw Kallen over there.

And many more could have happened to condemn him further. The show has made it a point to show us that Rolo wants Lelouch to be broken. Refrain would break Lelouch, that is what Rolo wants. There is no justification for the idea that Rolo would stop Lelouch from using Refrain.

The rest of your paragraph just makes me want to slap my forehead. That is not an argumentative point that is just pulling nonsense from whatever hole is within reach. What if a meteor had hit Lelouch on the head but the relativistic gravity created by Kallen's presence had made it veer off course?

Probabilities are unlimited at any given time. Many beginnings can reach the same end. I can write a whole book on what ifs. Which is why I am saying both were important. It could have played out in infinite number of ways with infinite starting points and outcomes. A lot of things could have happened but they didn't. We are talking about what did happen. And there, both the scenes were important.

Probabilities are not unlimited when the show shows them to be limited. The number of things that could have happened had Kallen not appeared were limited to one. Rolo winning, Lelouch losing. That is what the entire ordeal on the train was about. The scene was not a blank slate, plans were already in motion as such the probabilities of things occurring were severely limited. The show also did not foreshadow or even mention any other character even remotely worrying about Lelouch, as such it would be illogical to even bother arguing that anyone else could have shown up.

Once Kallen throws a wrench in Rolo's plan, which is what she did by saving Lelouch from his pit of despair, many, many more possibilities and probabilities opened up because, simply, the event was not accounted for or planned for by Rolo.

Kallen was jealous, but something made her jealous. She saw that there is a close connection between Lelouch and C.C. Even in the episode she gets captured, she gets jealous of him discussing his plans with her. Lelouch and C.C. are close (they are partners, even if professional). It could still be foreshadowing her jealousy and Lelouch's and C.C.'s growing bond.

Or it could be foreshadowing just her jealousy. You're clearly never going to let the point go if it is even remotely negative or impartial to Lelouch and C.C. ending, as such I will simply drop this point. Just take note that while the jealousy was foreshadowed and had proper development, your claim has as of now had no such development at all. It has been over 20 episodes since then, the foreshadowing in that scene has been likely used up already.

C.C. is not cold, she acts cold. She thinks she doesn't have anything to live for. She thought no one could care for her. Remember when she said Lelouch was the first one to ever thank her? I think that scene establishes a love triangle.

A person has to be cold to some degree to be able to act cold. She had Mao to live for, clearly wasn't enough of a reason. The Cult also seemed to have liked her and yet they too were not enough of a reason. Just because Lelouch was the first to thank her, doesn't mean others have not shown her love... when they clearly have.

A thank you does not form a love triangle.

Not to mention that one of the reasons that no one seems to be thanking C.C. is because of her own selfishness. Those cultists would have likely been thanking her had she not abandoned them to V.V..

C.C. played a much bigger role in the 14th episode. She might play an active role now. Everything isn't going to end at the 14th episode. There still might be room for development. There is nothing romantic going on now. They might even chuck the whole thing, and leave Lelouch single at the end.

And when did I say she didn't play a large role or that her role would end? If they want an ending between Lelouch and C.C. then all the power to them, its their story, but as it is, they haven't done much with it. This more recent episode served to only further the gap between her and Lelouch.

There is nothing romantic going on? Did you miss the Kallen and Nunally bonding scene? Do they have to slap you upside the head with development for you to see it?

Little Mao did love C.C., though he had no choice but to love her. He wasn't able to form any relationship with anyone else. He wouldn't have needed her as much if he didn't have his geass. He wouldn't have become so attached to her, if he was able to interact with other people. It wouldn't reach to madness, if there were other people in his life.

A stalker never loved the person they stalked. Not being able to live without someone is one thing, but to go out and harm them is completely different. If someone can drive a person that insane, that they want to kill them if they don't want to be with them, then they need to see a shrink.

According to me love is when you are able to give the person some space, not smother them for your own needs. Obsession is selfish love, hence I wouldn't call it love. They don't care about the other person, as long as their needs are being served. That is what Mao had become.

Esper addressed this, and I am short on time. Nothing against you.

I don't think she intended to fall in love with him. Marianne teases her about Lelouch, but she always ends it with that can't possibly happen, it's just a contract, nothing else. There have been many instances of this. She is just lying to herself.

Tokkan covered this as well. And as I said... short on time.