View Full Version : Character Discussion - Suzaku
As someone already pointed out previously, if Suzaku had demanded survailliance data on Lelouch for the past few days leading up to Shirely's death he would've been able to determine the discrepencies. Especially if they refuse to give him full access.
And since the investigation began when Shirely died, then it's still right in going to the agency in the first place rather than drugging Kallen.
The question is, who will review ALL that data? It's not like Suzaku actually has all the time in the world to do all that by himself. Remember, the people Suzaku could only use for that super top secret task are all geassed already.
That makes that point moot.
The question is, who will review ALL that data? It's not like Suzaku actually has all the time in the world to do all that by himself. Remember, the people Suzaku could only use for that super top secret task are all geassed already.
That makes that point moot.
Its his job? It is also far more reliable and believable than a drugged captive.
SoldierOfDarkness
2008-07-20, 20:58
The question is, who will review ALL that data? It's not like Suzaku actually has all the time in the world to do all that by himself. Remember, the people Suzaku could only use for that super top secret task are all geassed already.
That makes that point moot.
1. You don't need to because they won't give him the data. THe moment Suzaku barged in demanding Lelouch's whereabouts they wouldn't give him a straight answer and Lelouch was already gone.
2. By the time of Shirely's death, Rollo, Villeta, and Lelouch will have left so he would've figured it out.
morbosfist
2008-07-20, 20:59
Speaking of which, either Suzaku misunderstands Refrain or they severely altered it. He seems to be under the impression that she'll blank out and answer questions truthfully.
Sports72Xtrm
2008-07-20, 21:04
Speaking of which, either Suzaku misunderstands Refrain or they severely altered it. He seems to be under the impression that she'll blank out and answer questions truthfully.
Well when we saw Kallens mom all drugged up, she was actig on her true feelings for Kallen about how much she loved her and how much her affair with her dad was hurting her instead of bottling it all in like she usually does. So idk, maybe refrain as a truth serum is not that far fetch.
@ Var
No, it was not Suzaku's job to watch over Lelouch. It's his job to kill Zero, if Lelouch regained his memory. Watching over Lelouch is the Intelligence Agency's job. And they are professionals.
It's like Suzaku HAS to do everything to do a good job for you. Governments don't work that way.
Stop hating Suzaku for not micromanaging everything. That was never his forte. That's Lelouch's. He's a battlefield general, not an intelligence specialist.
1. You don't need to because they won't give him the data. THe moment Suzaku barged in demanding Lelouch's whereabouts they wouldn't give him a straight answer and Lelouch was already gone.
Leading up to Shirley's death, Suzaku didn't have enough suspicion for him to do that. Only when he got RAGE after Shirley "committed suicide" did he have enough of a reason to go about things that way. See below for the rest.
2. By the time of Shirely's death, Rollo, Villeta, and Lelouch will have left so he would've figured it out.
Which is what happened this episode. But he was more fueled by RAGE and didn't want to do things in a confrontational manner which would ALERT Lelouch about him knowing the truth.
@ Var
No, it was not Suzaku's job to watch over Lelouch. It's his job to kill Zero, if Lelouch regained his memory. Watching over Lelouch is the Intelligence Agency's job. And they are professionals.
It's like Suzaku HAS to do everything to do a good job for you. Governments don't work that way.
Stop hating Suzaku for not micromanaging everything. That was never his forte. That's Lelouch's.
Where have I said I hate him? No where. If he has a suspicion, it is his job to act on it. He is hunting Zero if he suspects someone as Zero he'd best check for himself, not depend on others. And look, the moment he did something on his own, the truth punched him in the face.
Where have I said I hate him? No where. If he has a suspicion, it is his job to act on it. He is hunting Zero if he suspects someone as Zero he'd best check for himself, not depend on others. And look, the moment he did something on his own, the truth punched him in the face.
He has had suspicions before, but look at the previous episodes before that, will you?
The save by Rollo made his Nunnally trap doubt his suspicions. The next one after that, the talk with Sayoko-Lelouch on the phone from China while Zero was in China.
This is the only time when his suspicion was allowed any progress precisely because Lelouch was gone (trapped in another world), Rollo was not there, and Viletta abandoned her post. Suzaku only being able to find the ruse's existence was out of the pure luck of the situation created by Shirley's death.
And no, Suzaku is still no intelligence specialist. Watching and listening to ALL that surveillance data is completely impossible for one man (even if he is a superhuman) to do alone. Specialization exists in this world for a reason. Not everyone can do anything right.
And no, you're coming off as hating because you're blaming Suzaku for things that he would never normally do. Governments and agencies work on a basis of trust and professionalism to get the job done.
He has had suspicions before, but look at the previous episodes before that, will you?
The save by Rollo made his Nunnally trap doubt his suspicions. The next one after that, the talk with Sayoko-Lelouch on the phone from China while Zero was in China.
This is the only time when his suspicion was allowed any progress precisely because Lelouch was gone (trapped in another world), Rollo was not there, and Viletta abandoned her post. Suzaku only being able to find the ruse's existence was out of the pure luck of the situation created by Shirley's death.
And no, Suzaku is still no intelligence specialist. Watching and listening to ALL that surveillance data is completely impossible for one man (even if he is a superhuman) to do alone. Specialization exists in this world for a reason. Not everyone can do anything right.
And no, you're coming off as hating because you're blaming Suzaku for things that he would never normally do. Governments and agencies work on a basis of trust and professionalism to get the job done.
Suzaku had doubts about everything after Shirley's death. If he doubts Lelouch he doubts the agency by default. His plan to drug Kallen is stupid when the alternative is both simpler and more likely to give him what he wants. This episode showed just how easy it was, yet he went to drug Kallen first for some reason.
SoldierOfDarkness
2008-07-20, 21:48
He has had suspicions before, but look at the previous episodes before that, will you?
The save by Rollo made his Nunnally trap doubt his suspicions. The next one after that, the talk with Sayoko-Lelouch on the phone from China while Zero was in China.
This is the only time when his suspicion was allowed any progress precisely because Lelouch was gone (trapped in another world), Rollo was not there, and Viletta abandoned her post. Suzaku only being able to find the ruse's existence was out of the pure luck of the situation created by Shirley's death.
And no, Suzaku is still no intelligence specialist. Watching and listening to ALL that surveillance data is completely impossible for one man (even if he is a superhuman) to do alone. Specialization exists in this world for a reason. Not everyone can do anything right.
And no, you're coming off as hating because you're blaming Suzaku for things that he would never normally do. Governments and agencies work on a basis of trust and professionalism to get the job done.
Your missing the point that Var and I are making.
Suzaku makes the deductions after Shirley had been killed. We are talking about him doubting AFTER Shirley's death. Not before, not last year, and defintely not last week. By the time he started to act Rollo, Villeta, and Lelouch were already gone.
So if he had gone to the agency first he'd be in the same situation that he just was in now in 15.
There's no need to go over tons of data, he only needs that small time frame and the moment those guys refuse to give him any access to it spells the obvious.
To truly free "area 11" Suzaku have to battle the ideals of Charles. If Suzaku does gain control as knight 1, the elevens will still be under britannia rule and ideology and eventually total assimilation into the customs of britannia.
HayashiTakara
2008-07-21, 01:05
Well Suzaku in part, redeemed himself by not using the refrain on her, but at the same time showed how fucked up his perception of Lelouch is... Its like to him Lelouch is the evil dragon that needs to be slayed by the ever so good knight in shining white armor, Suzaku. Oh please... get over yourself Suzaku.
Well Suzaku in part, redeemed himself by not using the refrain on her, but at the same time showed how fucked up his perception of Lelouch is... Its like to him Lelouch is the evil dragon that needs to be slayed by the ever so good knight in shining white armor, Suzaku. Oh please... get over yourself Suzaku.
Suzaku only act according to what he knows,if someone kill my gf like LL did to Suzaku, he need to be slayed..And Suzaku won't change until LL get over himself and tell Suzaku the truth
Suzaku only act according to what he knows,if someone kill my gf like LL did to Suzaku, he need to be slayed..And Suzaku won't change until LL get over himself and tell Suzaku the truth
Everyone in this show is obsessive, i would like to see one of them get killed by the other :rolleyes: .
Suzaku only act according to what he knows,if someone kill my gf like LL did to Suzaku, he need to be slayed..And Suzaku won't change until LL get over himself and tell Suzaku the truth
Lelouch's little showdown with Charles, talking about how Lelouch's lies are bringing his own downfall, gave us some foreshadowing on Lelouch actually giving in and telling Suzaku the truth.
The thing that really upsets me about Suzaku in 15.
While I am happy that he indeed didn't use the Refrain, because that would have been low, I thought it was just as bad that his reasoning for not using it was to not become like Lelouch. Why on Earth is he so high with his morals? It is rather ridiculous that he hides behind Euphemia all the time, and blames Lelouch for practically every little thing. Lelouch isn't that bad, he does what needs to be done, and he admits to his mistakes and the blood he has taken, Suzaku simply stands on his morals. He shouldn't have used refrain on her simply because it was wrong, not because he'd 'be like Lelouch'.
I think he just doesn't want to become like Zero (or the picture he has of Zero).
Let's face it, just because you are aware or sorry about the lives you take, it won't redeem you in the slightest.
Zero was born from Lelouch's way of thinking that to defeat a devilish emperor you must become a devil yourself. And he's followed that principle diligently. Suzaku saw only his bad side if you so will, all the character development, not forcing a political marriage, not ruling of china but gaining them as allies,...
He didn't see any of that.
And what's wrong about morals? Suzaku is on the preachy side but his ideals are not something bad, are they?
Besides as long as he can keep to his chosen way I'd say he can draw strength from where he wants.
magnuskn
2008-07-21, 03:28
I must say, I am positively surprised to see that most of the Zero apologists are not twisting Suzakus actions like a pretzel, as they usually do.
Well, besides a little smattering of "Ooooh, Euphy was an accident" and "But Lelouch is so much better, because he massacres children, while Suzaku is a bastard because he threatens Kallen with using Refrain on her, then doesnīt go through with it, making him gutless!", that is. :rolleyes:
Vallen Chaos Valiant
2008-07-21, 04:01
I must say, I am positively surprised to see that most of the Zero apologists are not twisting Suzakus actions like a pretzel, as they usually do.
Well, besides a little smattering of "Ooooh, Euphy was an accident" and "But Lelouch is so much better, because he massacres children, while Suzaku is a bastard because he threatens Kallen with using Refrain on her, then doesnīt go through with it, making him gutless!", that is. :rolleyes:
I don't know about the others, but recently my main complaint has been about how stupid Suzaku is.
There are plenty of people on Britannia's side. But Suzaku is the only idiot amongst them. Even the crazy Nina got something done recently. The drugging of Kallen was a stupid act that would have achieved nothing. All this merely solidified my belief that a Suzaku-ran Japan would be an abysmal failure. Even more innocent people will die than during Clovis's rule if Suzaku took the Area 11 governer job.
magnuskn
2008-07-21, 04:12
I don't know about the others, but recently my main complaint has been about how stupid Suzaku is.
There are plenty of people on Britannia's side. But Suzaku is the only idiot amongst them. Even the crazy Nina got something done recently. The drugging of Kallen was a stupid act that would have achieved nothing. All this merely solidified my belief that a Suzaku-ran Japan would be an abysmal failure. Even more innocent people will die than during Clovis's rule if Suzaku took the Area 11 governer job.
Yeah, I can see that. Well, "stupid" isnīt the word I would use, rather "naive".
But in all honesty, R2 has given such vast amounts of plot armour to Lelouch in regards to Suzaku trying to nail down if Lelouch is the "new" Zero, that is has become ridiculous.
Also, the focus clearly has shifted from both Lelouch and Suzaku being the main players in R1, to Lelouch being the main player, and Suzaku becoming supporting cast. So, it isnīt very surprising to me that the writers chose to make Suzaku as inefficient as he has been for the whole season.
I donīt really agree with you on how a Japan run by Suzaku would be worse off than one run by Clovis. Suzaku wouldnīt do massacres, nor tolerate escapades by his sub-ordinates, like Nunally did for a good time.
Vallen Chaos Valiant
2008-07-21, 04:29
I donīt really agree with you on how a Japan run by Suzaku would be worse off than one run by Clovis. Suzaku wouldnīt do massacres, nor tolerate escapades by his sub-ordinates, like Nunally did for a good time.
The point about a governer isn't what you do, but what you allow your subordinates to do. It doesn't matter that Suzaku don't do massacres if he couldn't stop his subordinates from ordering such things behind his back.
Suzaku would not be able to exercise any of the theoretical power he has because he has no idea what to do with it. The ineffective drugging of Kallen proves it. (As I mentioned prior, he would have saved himself from a slap if Suzaku just visited the Intelligence Agency from the start like he should be.)
magnuskn
2008-07-21, 04:43
The point about a governer isn't what you do, but what you allow your subordinates to do. It doesn't matter that Suzaku don't do massacres if he couldn't stop his subordinates from ordering such things behind his back.
I obviously disagree. I think his subordinates would think hard and long about doing anything behind his back, because he isnīt some blind girl in a wheelchair, but rather a knight of rounds... he has the power to execute every single one of them by his decision. We shouldnīt forget that we are talking about the Britannian Empire. Emphasis on "Empire".... fear will keep the subordinates in line.
Suzaku would not be able to exercise any of the theoretical power he has because he has no idea what to do with it. The ineffective drugging of Kallen proves it. (As I mentioned prior, he would have saved himself from a slap if Suzaku just visited the Intelligence Agency from the start like he should be.)
Ah, so your point is that you think Suzaku is stupid all the time, not just behaving stupidly because of Shirleys death. I disagree with that on the basis that Suzaku has demonstrated in the past that he is capable of good decisions.
It is only in the second season that his reasoning has been shown as flawed, and the decision to do so is, IMO, is very much because he has been relegated to be a second ( or even third ) banana to Lelouchs struggle.
Seriously, from the stories standpoint, he has become just as relevant as Schneizel or Kallen, hell, maybe even as much as Ougi ( who might become very important very soon ).
It has become the Lelouch show, to the detriment of Suzaku. Not that this makes the show a bad one, but it definitely should give some perspective on why he has become so ineffectual and ( grantedly ) stupid in his actions.
Anh_Minh
2008-07-21, 05:07
I obviously disagree. I think his subordinates would think hard and long about doing anything behind his back, because he isnīt some blind girl in a wheelchair, but rather a knight of rounds... he has the power to execute every single one of them by his decision. We shouldnīt forget that we are talking about the Britannian Empire. Emphasis on "Empire".... fear will keep the subordinates in line.
The blind girl in a wheelchair could also order executions. It's also about what you can bring yourself to do, and what you can be convinced of.
Suzaku, so far, has shown willingness to walk over a lot of corpses to acquire his power. He'll probably do the same to keep it, even if he has no damn clue what to do with it. So, yeah, I could totally see him refusing to make waves if he's presented with a massacre after the fact. Especially if he's told it was necessary to keep the peace because of all those goddamn terrorists he abhors. Not to mention, he's shown little skill in fact checking. Someone like Rohmeier would work around him more easily than she worked around cripple girl.
Legend Ver 2
2008-07-21, 05:10
It's not that Suzaku is "stupid" or high on his moral horse that makes me dislike him. It's the fact that he's blinded by his own sense of justice that just makes him so annoying. I mean he didn't stop using refrain on Kallen because it was wrong, but because it would be a Zero thing to do, which is a no no.
Besides from his righteous BS (and it's BS because no righteous man would use your own friend as a bargaining chip to get promoted), his blindness by his own selfish reasons to keep his hands clean and blood free makes him oblivious to the big picture of the entire show. I mean he has absolutely NO idea whatsoever about the happenings that's going around, except to just blame everything on Lelouch.
Cornelia, upon learning Zero=Lelouch, though branded him as her sister's killer, still took the time to hunt down the answers regarding Geass, because it is such an important factor during the happenings of the last episode and Euphie's unintended actions. Jeremiah also took the time in his final confrontation with Lelouch to find out why he is doing what he's doing as Zero, ultimately finding Lelouch's true motivations and realizing that he isn't such a bad guy at all. Suzaku just goes blindly into accusing Lelocuch of everything, EVEN though he is now aware of the power of Geass, AND the Emperor's temple to destroy the gods. I mean those 2 revelations are PRETTY effing big plot points and issues in this conflict don't you think? Any other normal person, after acquiring such knowledge of both, would at least question and try to dig deeper into it to find out wtf is really going on. Instead, he spends 15 episodes of the show wondering whether or not Lelouch is Zero.
I expected more on his developement since his knowldge of Geass from season 1's ending, and was half-expecting him to find out Lelouch's motivations behind all this. After how many year's as friends, he would just blindly accuse him of everything, not even bothering to find out the event's of Lelouch's mother's assassination, since he already know's he's a prince of Britannia. he's soblinded by his selfish righteousness of "wanting to change things from the inside". I mean how can you accuse someone when you don't know ANYTHING that's happening. Sure he's not a stupid person persay, but he IS stupid and oblivious enough to not see that his knowledge of the supernatural factors around him are bigger issues in this struggle than he thinks.
magnuskn
2008-07-21, 05:10
The blind girl in a wheelchair could also order executions. It's also about what you can bring yourself to do, and what you can be convinced of.
Suzaku, so far, has shown willingness to walk over a lot of corpses to acquire his power. He'll probably do the same to keep it, even if he has no damn clue what to do with it. So, yeah, I could totally see him refusing to make waves if he's presented with a massacre after the fact. Especially if he's told it was necessary to keep the peace because of all those goddamn terrorists he abhors. Not to mention, he's shown little skill in fact checking. Someone like Rohmeier would work around him more easily than she worked around cripple girl.
I donīt think so. I still think of Suzaku as the guy from season one, so my opinion is not as low as yours.
Iīd think that Ms. Rohmeier would pull that trick *once* and then find herself in front of an execution commando.
And, tshk, I specifically avoided calling Nunally a cripple. :upset:
Besides from his righteous BS (and it's BS because no righteous man would use your own friend as a bargaining chip to get promoted)
... who had killed the love of your life in cold blood, after accidentally mind-raping her , transforming her thus into the kind of person she would have hated most to be. Oh, and who after killing her in cold blood, *then* drags her name through the mud, so that in that worlds history she will become a synonym for a maddened butcher.
Sorry, that kills any friendship dead. Deader than dead, for any normal person it transforms it into searing hatred. If you canīt see that, I really canīt help you.
As for the rest of your post, I said it before, Iīll say it again, they dumbified Suzaku in the second season, because he has become a third-stringer in the events of the show.
Anh_Minh
2008-07-21, 05:22
It's not that Suzaku is "stupid" or high on his moral horse that makes me dislike him. It's the fact that he's blinded by his own sense of justice that just makes him so annoying. I mean he didn't stop using refrain on Kallen because it was wrong, but because it would be a Zero thing to do, which is a no no.
Lelouch also uses the loo. I'm pretty sure it doesn't bother Suzaku to do the same. What happened is that Suzaku, at the last moment, recognized that the abyss was looking back, and turned away. That's a sign of good character.
Of course, it doesn't excuse his role in Britania's conquests and oppression. That's what makes him a horrible person, not that he's found a face for evil.
Besides from his righteous BS (and it's BS because no righteous man would use your own friend as a bargaining chip to get promoted),
I would, if I worked in law enforcement, and said friend was a terrorist with the blood of hundreds on his hands, including that of the woman I loved.
I expected more on his developement since his knowldge of Geass from season 1's ending, and was half-expecting him to find out Lelouch's motivations behind all this. After how many year's as friends,
One or so? Two? If you don't count the seven years they've spent apart, I mean.
he would just blindly accuse him of everything, not even bothering to find out the event's of Lelouch's mother's assassination, since he already know's he's a prince of Britannia. he's soblinded by his selfish righteousness of "wanting to change things from the inside". I mean how can you accuse someone when you don't know ANYTHING that's happening. Sure he's not a stupid person persay, but he IS stupid and oblivious enough to not see that his knowledge of the supernatural factors around him are bigger issues in this struggle than he thinks.
He knows Lelouch forced Euphemia to become the Genocide Princess, framed her, and killed her. What more does he need to know? I mean, it's nice that you're sympathetic to Lelouch, but try to see it from his side, too.
I donīt think so. I still think of Suzaku as the guy from season one, so my opinion is not as low as yours.
I actually think more highly in R2 than in S1.
Iīd think that Ms. Rohmeier would pull that trick *once* and then find herself in front of an execution commando.
He can't bring himself to sign the order on the guy who tried to kill him, when it's basically SOP. You think he'd order an execution for overzealousness?
magnuskn
2008-07-21, 05:28
He can't bring himself to sign the order on the guy who tried to kill him, when it's basically SOP. You think he'd order an execution for overzealousness?
That guy was a japanese who tried to kill him for betraying his motherland... Suzaku clearly has mixed feelings on that account, so it is no wonder he would have also mixed feelings on executing the assassin.
Actually, him just going along with Ninas signature of the execution order is more of a sign of bad judgement and moral decay on his part than not signing them himself.
And, yeah, I think heīd let some person be executed without a problem if that person had ordered a massacre. Massacres tend to be unambiguously Bad Things ( which is why I am so flabbergasted that there are actually people defending Lelouch about what happened in episode 14 and still negatively comparing Suzakus behaviour in that ep with what Lelouch did ).
Vallen Chaos Valiant
2008-07-21, 05:36
That guy was a japanese who tried to kill him for betraying his motherland... Suzaku clearly has mixed feelings on that account, so it is no wonder he would have also mixed feelings on executing the assassin.
Actually, him just going along with Ninas signature of the execution order is more of a sign of bad judgement and moral decay on his part than not signing them himself.
And, yeah, I think heīd let some person be executed without a problem if that person had ordered a massacre. Massacres tend to be unambiguously Bad Things ( which is why I am so flabbergasted that there are actually people defending Lelouch about what happened in episode 14 and still negatively comparing Suzakus behaviour in that ep with what Lelouch did ).
Simple. Lulu isn't proud of what he did. He know exactly what he was doing and why he was doing it.
Drugging Kallen, however, is a ridiculous and more importantly, pointless act. If you want to break morales, at least do it for a reason.
magnuskn
2008-07-21, 05:41
Simple. Lulu isn't proud of what he did. He know exactly what he was doing and why he was doing it.
Drugging Kallen, however, is a ridiculous and more importantly, pointless act. If you want to break morales, at least do it for a reason.
Iīd say that Suzaku did stop at the end, but it is pointedly clear that he did so because he didnīt want to stoop as low as Zero/Lelouch... the act itself doesnīt get any less stupid by that.
But, to repeat a last time, Suzaku got dumbified, because he got relegated to third-banana status in the plot.
MonkeyDude
2008-07-21, 05:49
I would think that Suzaku's 'Euphemia' card lost all its value with the reappearance of Cornelia. Both obviously loved the girl (although Cornelia easily edges Suzaku in this category) and both were obviously quite pissed at what happened to her. If Cornelia could dig under the surface while keeping her emotions in check, why can't Suzaku do the same? Suzaku had a lot of evidence that Cornelia was desperately searching for right under his nose...yet he continues to play the Zero blame game.
As for Suzaku drugging Kallen...I would have applauded him if he stopped due to the fact that what he was doing is wrong (and quite frankly pointless)...but he stopped since he didn't want to do something Lelouch did. I think that is where is current 'morals' come into play. As long as it is something Lelouch hasn't done ityet, then he can take the moral high ground. If it is something that Lelouch has done in the past, then that action automatically becomes morally unethical to him.
I'm trying hard not to take any sides between Lelouch and Suzaku, but I can confidently say that Suzaku is indeed an idiot. Not even going to call him a hypocrite or naive...he is just downright stupid if he can't see what's in front of him. You would think a year is enough to cool him down and not be blinded by his emotions...
magnuskn
2008-07-21, 05:53
I would think that Suzaku's 'Euphemia' card lost all its value with the reappearance of Cornelia. Both obviously loved the girl (although Cornelia easily edges Suzaku in this category) and both were obviously quite pissed at what happened to her. If Cornelia could dig under the surface while keeping her emotions in check, why can't Suzaku do the same? Suzaku had a lot of evidence that Cornelia was desperately searching for right under his nose...yet he continues to play the Zero blame game.
How exactly does Cornelia impact Suzakus behaviour? As far as I got from the series, he has no clue what she is up to, the only one who *maybe* knows anything in the Britannia camp is Guilford.
Ronin Aquila
2008-07-21, 05:57
One may be tempted to entertain the notion that Suzy-boy has decency and principles because he didn't pump Kallen's veins full of poison in the end.
But do not forget that the very fact he even entertained such notions in the first place means that he is still a chump, and most definitely not off the hook from being one. :mad::)
MonkeyDude
2008-07-21, 05:57
The point is that they both care very deeply for Euphemia, but took very different approaches on how to handle the situation. Cornelia started digging around for why it happened, the cause of it, and who was inevitably responsible for it. Suzaku blamed Lelouch/Zero and keeps using that fact to blind him from the truth.
If Cornelia managed to find a deeper reason as to why Euphemia acted the way she did, why can't Suzaku do the same?
HayashiTakara
2008-07-21, 05:59
Its cause Suzaku is a self righteous douchebag, :)
magnuskn
2008-07-21, 06:14
One may be tempted to entertain the notion that Suzy-boy has decency and principles because he didn't pump Kallen's veins full of poison in the end.
But do not forget that the very fact he even entertained such notions in the first place means that he is still a chump, and most definitely not off the hook from being one. :mad::)
Yeah, heīs a chump in comparison to more heroic characters. But as we are comparing to Lelouch... he comes off rather well.
The point is that they both care very deeply for Euphemia, but took very different approaches on how to handle the situation. Cornelia started digging around for why it happened, the cause of it, and who was inevitably responsible for it. Suzaku blamed Lelouch/Zero and keeps using that fact to blind him from the truth.
If Cornelia managed to find a deeper reason as to why Euphemia acted the way she did, why can't Suzaku do the same?
True enough. I refer back to Suzaku being dumbified this season.
MonkeyDude
2008-07-21, 06:15
I would say that he will only reach that level once he uses Nunnally as a bargaining chip. If he ever does that...then all shred of what little respect I have for Suzaku will disappear.
Of course that little shred of respect is mostly due to his hax pilot/wall running skills. Is he even human anymore? xD
Ronin Aquila
2008-07-21, 06:24
On the matter of Nunnally-chan, she is starting to show that she is neither as gullible nor weak willed as her self-perceived "puppeteers" thought her to be.
Go Nunna-Chan!! Keep it up!! :)
If Suzy-boy sells her out to Charlie brown.... :frustrated:
Legend Ver 2
2008-07-21, 06:36
I would, if I worked in law enforcement, and said friend was a terrorist with the blood of hundreds on his hands, including that of the woman I loved.
One or so? Two? If you don't count the seven years they've spent apart, I mean.
He knows Lelouch forced Euphemia to become the Genocide Princess, framed her, and killed her. What more does he need to know? I mean, it's nice that you're sympathetic to Lelouch, but try to see it from his side, too.
In response to the Euphie card, I give you what Monkeydude posted:
The point is that they both care very deeply for Euphemia, but took very different approaches on how to handle the situation. Cornelia started digging around for why it happened, the cause of it, and who was inevitably responsible for it. Suzaku blamed Lelouch/Zero and keeps using that fact to blind him from the truth.
If Cornelia managed to find a deeper reason as to why Euphemia acted the way she did, why can't Suzaku do the same?
That is exactly the point I was trying to make. He had enough knowledge of EVERYTHING that transpired to conclude that whatever happened to Euphie was not normal. Lelouch didn't FORCE Euphie to do anything, because forcing would imply it was a consious decision. Lelouch, unaware of his Geass's status, accidently and unintentionally caused Euphie to do what she did. I'm sure everyone would agree that Cornelia's love for Euphie is probably of a higher level than Suzaku's love, and if she had the sense to notice that everything that happened is more than it seems, and actively went searching for answers, then what's to stop Suzaku from doing the same, especially if he had all this knowledge of Geass and it's power. Suzaku pretty much had V.V. under his nose right after Euphie died who probably told him everything, if not at least about the power of Geass.
The seven years apart doesn't change that fact that he knows the truth of Lelouch's identity and that Lelouch wouldn't be as cold-blooded to intentionally screw up Euphie, Lelouch's OWN sister.
How exactly does Cornelia impact Suzakus behaviour? As far as I got from the series, he has no clue what she is up to, the only one who *maybe* knows anything in the Britannia camp is Guilford.
It's not Suzaku's knowledge of Cornelia's actions that he is referring to, but the fact that they took different paths to responding and redeem/clear Euphie's name. Suzaku doesn't need to kow what Cornelia's doing recently to know that there is something fishy about the whole situation.
And, yeah, I think heīd let some person be executed without a problem if that person had ordered a massacre. Massacres tend to be unambiguously Bad Things ( which is why I am so flabbergasted that there are actually people defending Lelouch about what happened in episode 14 and still negatively comparing Suzakus behaviour in that ep with what Lelouch did ).
It's not that we're defending Lelouch but more that Lelouch knew exactly what's going on, and assumed the position to be a necessary evil to wipe out another evil. I mean can you imagine letting those kids live? With even one of them at 6 years old or so overpowering TWO KM frmames with their Geass powers. I mean, yeah, it was a massacre, but it could've been alot worse if those geass kids were allowed to live. Plus the fact that Lelouch know what he's doing is questionable, if not flat out wrong. But like someone else said, the fact that Suzaku even entertained the thought of refraining Kallen after all his righteousness moral high horse is just bleh. Yea, it isn't as big in scope to a flat out massacre, but so is killing your own father for being honorable and not giving into the opposing Britannian forces.
Anh_Minh
2008-07-21, 07:11
The difference between Cornelia and Suzaku is that, while Cornelia had to sniff out the truth herself, Suzaku was given answers that were true, if not complete, on a silver platter.
Cornelia may not know that Lelouch is Zero, and is acting on his own, rather than at the behest of the geass cult. So she searched and she searched, and found the cult. And set out to expose it to restore Euphie's name.
Suzaku, OTOH, was given just enough to make sense of Zero's rise and Euphie's fall: that Lelouch was Zero, and had the power to enforce his will on anyone once. It explained some of his miracles (starting with Suzaku's own rebellion, which he'd wondered about) and why Euphemia went mad. It explained it all. He didn't have to go gunning for some shadowy cult. He just had to go after the one he knew to be responsible. Euphemia didn't go crazy after being left alone with some cult. It's not VV who shot her after claiming she'd betrayed them. It was all Lelouch.
orangejuicetang
2008-07-21, 09:05
If Cornelia has completely forgiven Lelouch for what he's done, why is she tied up in the preview?
If Cornelia has completely forgiven Lelouch for what he's done, why is she tied up in the preview?
Because she is still dangerous. He has no proof that she's not going to just lunge at him and skewer him.
The difference between Cornelia and Suzaku is not so much what they were told, but that one went to seek out the truth for herself and discovered that trurth, while the other accepted what he was told as truth without questioning it.
SoldierOfDarkness
2008-07-21, 09:22
On the matter of Nunnally-chan, she is starting to show that she is neither as gullible nor weak willed as her self-perceived "puppeteers" thought her to be.
Go Nunna-Chan!! Keep it up!! :)
If Suzy-boy sells her out to Charlie brown.... :frustrated:
Doubt it.
The guy's already having doubts about it and worrying what the Emperor would do with Nunnally.
The difference between Cornelia and Suzaku is not so much what they were told, but that one went to seek out the truth for herself and discovered that trurth, while the other accepted what he was told as truth without questioning it.
But neither were lied to. I'm not sure if VV was fully aware of the fact that Lelouch's geass went wild. Even CC, who should of all people know, didn't realize it at first.
Suzaku was given the whole truth so there's no denying it. Cornelia found out for herself but somehow blamed some cult who had little to do with it aside from providing said power base to the person who used it on Euphie.
But neither were lied to. I'm not sure if VV was fully aware of the fact that Lelouch's geass went wild. Even CC, who should of all people know, didn't realize it at first.
V.V. caused it, Cornelia made that point clear enough, as did the show. Lelouch's Geass didn't go renegade just out of the blue, it happened after V.V.'s smile at the ruins.
Suzaku was given the whole truth so there's no denying it. Cornelia found out for herself but somehow blamed some cult who had little to do with it aside from providing said power base to the person who used it on Euphie.
Suzaku was told something by V.V., which he accepted as the truth. He never questioned why or for what reason, he simply went wild.
Eliarine
2008-07-21, 09:58
Suzaku was told something by V.V., which he accepted as the truth. He never questioned why or for what reason, he simply went wild.
Because he didn't really have a reason to doubt anything. When he confronted Lelouch at the end of season 1 he never told him geassing Euphie was an accident. The way I see it, he thinks Lelouch is responsible for everything and Geass is just the power with which he achieves his goals, he has no reason to blame it instead of Lelouch.
Diedrupo
2008-07-21, 10:00
Lelouch, unaware of his Geass's status, accidently and unintentionally caused Euphie to do what she did.
You are aware that Lelouch is the only person who knows this, right? Everyone else either believes that Euphie went crazy or in Suzaku and Cornelia's case, believe that he intentionally geassed her as part of his plans.
I'm sure everyone would agree that Cornelia's love for Euphie is probably of a higher level than Suzaku's love, and if she had the sense to notice that everything that happened is more than it seems, and actively went searching for answers, then what's to stop Suzaku from doing the same, especially if he had all this knowledge of Geass and it's power. Suzaku pretty much had V.V. under his nose right after Euphie died who probably told him everything, if not at least about the power of Geass.
Yep, they both know about geass well. However for them to blame the geass and not Lelouch is really stretching it. If a villain obtained powers to hurt people, would you blame the villain or the powers?
The seven years apart doesn't change that fact that he knows the truth of Lelouch's identity and that Lelouch wouldn't be as cold-blooded to intentionally screw up Euphie, Lelouch's OWN sister.
He killed his own brother, something he admitted publicly. If he can kill his brother, he can kill his sister. Suzaku didn't even know who Euphemia was until he met her when she jumped out a building. He has no way of knowing what her relationship with Lelouch was in the past. And Cornelia seemed to have lost no love for Lelouch. Euphemia and Nunally were Lelouch's only friends among the royal siblings.
It's not that we're defending Lelouch but more that Lelouch knew exactly what's going on, and assumed the position to be a necessary evil to wipe out another evil. I mean can you imagine letting those kids live? With even one of them at 6 years old or so overpowering TWO KM frmames with their Geass powers. I mean, yeah, it was a massacre, but it could've been alot worse if those geass kids were allowed to live. Plus the fact that Lelouch know what he's doing is questionable, if not flat out wrong. But like someone else said, the fact that Suzaku even entertained the thought of refraining Kallen after all his righteousness moral high horse is just bleh. Yea, it isn't as big in scope to a flat out massacre, but so is killing your own father for being honorable and not giving into the opposing Britannian forces.
Meh, this is the same old anti-Suzaku spiel blasted out by people who either aren't viewing the show objectively (as in, giving everyone a fair slice and not being biased towards any one character) or are just really rooting for Lelouch so much that you're morally justifying everything he does and hating on everyone that opposes him.
Sure Lelouch *could* have wiped out the geass cult for "moral" reasons, but he didn't. He did it out of pure hatred after what happened to Shirley. I'd go so far as to say that he might have even loved Shirley (or grown to love her), and this was a really defining moment for him. Personally I respect him as a character much more if he did out of rage than out of moral responsibility, because it suits his character of a 'villain protagonist' much more.
And Suzaku's father was not a good man. The manga and novels all depict him as an evil bastard. Suzaku killed him to end a war that was going to eradicate all of Japan, so he saved millions of lives in doing so. Also, he was only 10 years old when he did it, and he feels remorse for doing so every day. You'd have to be one cold hearted person to hold this particular issue against him.
orangejuicetang
2008-07-21, 10:02
Also, he didn't have a reason to doubt it at that time simply because it all made sense. After all, who had the power of geass at that time? Lelouch. Who benefitted most from Euphie's massacre? Lelouch. We, the viewer know that it was an accident, but to people in the CG world who don't have this knowledge would probably think he did it on purpose simply because it plays into his plans so nicely.
Cornelia and Suzaku have completely different outlooks on Euphie's death.
Cornelia wants to clear her name and Suzaku wants to avenge her.
That's why Cornelia has to find out about the power named Geass...
Suzaku isn't interested in the power, he's interested in the man that abused it in his opinion. Euphie was geassed and Zero did it, that's all that's important to him.
The only person who could tell him the truth about what happened is Lelouch and he never did on several occasions. The whole situation is as bad as it is because Lelouch and Suzaku are as stubborn as mules... If nobody tries to improve the situation it won't.
And I'm not sure the whole refrain thing would be as pointless as it has been made out to be.
Apparently it affects the will of the intoxicated person, so there might be a way to use it as a truth serum of sorts.
Drugs always have other ways of being used than just shooting up...
Not that it matters now...
Diedrupo
2008-07-21, 10:09
Cornelia and Suzaku have completely different outlooks on Euphie's death.
Cornelia wants to clear her name and Suzaku wants to avenge her.
That's why Cornelia has to find out about the power named Geass...
Suzaku isn't interested in the power, he's interested in the man that abused it in his opinion. Euphie was geassed and Zero did it, that's all that's important to him.
There has been no indication whatsoever that Cornelia doesn't blame Lelouch for what happened. Just because she researched the geass and wanted answers from them does not mean that she doesn't blame Lelouch/Zero for killing Euphemia.
If anything I would assume she wants to take care of both issues.
There has been no indication whatsoever that Cornelia doesn't blame Lelouch for what happened. Just because she researched the geass and wanted answers from them does not mean that she doesn't blame Lelouch/Zero for killing Euphemia.
If anything I would assume she wants to take care of both issues.
Probably... She definitely blames Zero, but gaining evidence for Geass' existence is more important to her. Who'd believe her otherwise? The nick "massacre Princess" is definitely hard to get rid of...
blitz1/2
2008-07-21, 10:19
Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha... Oh god, it brought tears to my eyes.
Lelouch's action is a quetion of morality, Suzaku's actions are a question of idiocy/morality. The best one can argue on either stance is that they are same, but on certain actions one is, generally, worse than the other. The problem is that they alternate between who is doing the more good with their evil.
The most recent case, for instance, is Lelouch doing more good than Suzaku. But this, as has been said, falls into the whole idiocy side of Suzaku since morality was thrown out the window.
Likely because he is the antagonist for the story? It doesn't matter if they use the same methods, which they clearly do not since they have different stances on how things should be done, he is still the antagonist. How vile he is, is what is increasing, getting him closer and closer to the generally perceived idea of what an antogonist is or embodies.
Lelouch believes he is doing it for the common good. But that doesn't mean that it is.
Well put yourself in Suzaku's shoes, your best friend killed your love, enslaved (to a degree) your people. YOu would feel angry wouldn't you?
Well Suzaku goes too much with his emotion, which is his tragic flaw.
And also, we are mostly looking at things from Lulu's point of view not Suzaku's.
But do not forget that the very fact he even entertained such notions in the first place means that he is still a chump, and most definitely not off the hook from being one. :mad::)
Ah, is that the delicious smell of double standard? If Suzaku is a "chump" for not doing everything he's ever thought about, then Lelouch is Satan himself.
The difference between Cornelia and Suzaku is not so much what they were told, but that one went to seek out the truth for herself and discovered that trurth, while the other accepted what he was told as truth without questioning it.Suazaku watched in dispair as Euphie died, completely unaware of the tragedy that transpired. You're right, Suzaku accepted the truth without question. At the time, he probably would have accepted any truth that gave him an awswer. I can't blame him. What does Suazaku actually know? He knows that Lelouch possessed a Geass. He knows that Lelouch killed Euphemia. He knows that shortly before her death, she ordered a massacre, something she would never do. Suzaku has his truth.
What truth has Conelia discovered? A hidden cult that is studying and experimenting with Geass. Did she find the answers she was looking for? I'm not sure. To the best of my knowledge, the Current Geass Cult had nothing to do with Euphemia's death or Lelouch recieving Geass. Yet, they felt the wrath of the Britannian Princess. Cornelia seems to blame Geass, the power, for what happened to Euphemia. She will clear her sister's name, whatever the cost. Yes, Cornelia is seeking the truth, but the truth she is trying to find is very diffenent than Suzaku's. Suzaku blames the man who took Eupemia's life, not the power he used.
Suzaku simply stands on his morals. He shouldn't have used refrain on her simply because it was wrong, not because he'd 'be like Lelouch'.
I mean he didn't stop using refrain on Kallen because it was wrong, but because it would be a Zero thing to do, which is a no no
Can't believe people can twist the fact to their liking this much, doesn't being like LL/zero equal being bad and wrong in Suzaku's eyes,he stopped because he realized that it was a wrong action and that's it
About Cornelia and Suzaku,I'd say Cornelia is Lelouch sister after all,just like how LL himself decided to massacre the whole cult instead of just Rolo,Cornelia will reveal/destroy the cult first then take out Lelouch later,I can see that she doesn't show much love for him in the review.
bladeofdarkness
2008-07-21, 11:49
Can't believe people can twist the fact to their liking this much, doesn't being like LL/zero equal being bad and wrong in Suzaku's eyes,he stopped because he realized that it was a wrong action and that's it
right
if he figured that part out 10 seconds earlier he could have avoided
a)getting slapped
b)trumatising kallen
c)getting even more pissed off at lulu (he actually seems angrier afterwards.is he blaming lulu for that as well)
he found out the truth about lulu within two minutes of asking around the school
so that whole thing with kallen was pointless
incorrupts
2008-07-21, 11:50
Can't believe people can twist the fact to their liking this much, doesn't being like LL/zero equal being bad and wrong in Suzaku's eyes,he stopped because he realized that it was a wrong action and that's it
For the Love of God, yes. But of course, Suzaku is not allowed to change his mind. :rolleyes:
Dream_Traveller
2008-07-21, 12:05
right
if he figured that part out 10 seconds earlier he could have avoided
a)getting slapped
b)trumatising kallen
c)getting even more pissed off at lulu (he actually seems angrier afterwards.is he blaming lulu for that as well)
he found out the truth about lulu within two minutes of asking around the school
so that whole thing with kallen was pointless
Didn't you read? He realized it was wrong because he was turning into what he saw Zero as. And he went to Ashford because he then wanted to try a more humane method. Jeez, get that into your head, will ya? :rolleyes:
bladeofdarkness
2008-07-21, 12:09
Didn't you read? He realized it was wrong because he was turning into what he saw Zero as. And he went to Ashford because he then wanted to try a more humane method. Jeez, get that into your head, will ya? :rolleyes:
actually he has a really wrong view about who zero is and what he does
i know he doesnt know all the facts that we the viewers do
but still its worth noting that lulu has almost never used his geass to twist peoples will to his own couse
he always uses it as a weapon (albeit a stratigic one)
but he almost never uses it to make others follow him
Dream_Traveller
2008-07-21, 12:23
And yet, even without the Geass, and still with it, he used people like pawns in the first season.
And a wrong view? What, so he should support, in his eyes, the person that killed Clovis? That killed Euphemia? That made his life a living hell all due to a simple command to live?
but still its worth noting that lulu has almost never used his geass to twist peoples will to his own couse
he always uses it as a weapon (albeit a stratigic one)
but he almost never uses it to make others follow him
He never use geass to tell people to follow him directly but the fact is people follow him because he can perform "miracles" which are possible only because of his geass,as Charles said everything LL has is from lying. And he had no problem making people do things they'd never want to do using geass.
Suzaku is not so wrong about LL,the only thing he had wrong is that he thinks Lelouch only cares about himself and no one else while in fact LL cares for about 6-8 people.
Discerptor
2008-07-21, 12:34
but still its worth noting that lulu has almost never used his geass to twist peoples will to his own couse
he always uses it as a weapon (albeit a stratigic one)
but he almost never uses it to make others follow him
Even without the accident, Lelouch was willing to use Geass to make Euphy shoot him so he could drag her name through the mud and destroy everything she worked for. He used his Geass to basically make EVERYONE who was watching him at Ashford his slave for life. Using the Geass to make people "lose their will" and do things he needs hem to even when they never would on their own is ALL he does with it. He used in this fashion against every single soldier he made follow his oreders, he used it like this aganst Clovis, he used it like this against Cornelia, he used it like this on Euphie, and he even used it like this on KALLEN at the beginning of the series. All this is the same as what Suzaku didn't want to lower himself to doing. I don't know if you were trying to say something completely different from what you actually tried to claim here, but the only appropriate response to it is, "...lol wut?"
SoldierOfDarkness
2008-07-21, 12:38
V.V. caused it, Cornelia made that point clear enough, as did the show. Lelouch's Geass didn't go renegade just out of the blue, it happened after V.V.'s smile at the ruins.
Huh I was under the impression that they go wild themselves which is what CC warned Lelouch. If VV sped it up then so be it.
Suzaku was told something by V.V., which he accepted as the truth. He never questioned why or for what reason, he simply went wild.
Well it made sense to him. He knew that he wouldn't disobey an order and Euphie wouldn't order a massacre so why question it?
actually he has a really wrong view about who zero is and what he does
i know he doesnt know all the facts that we the viewers do
No it's not a wrong view. It's who he is and what he does. He wants to make a better world and is willing to do what it takes to achieve that goal. Just because he feels sympathy and hesistate doesn't change the fact that he did them. It's however why Suzaku wants to find out the truth behind Euphie and to do that he wants Lelouch to answer him.
His father is doing the exact same thing by destroying the lies plaguing the world by whatever means but in this case he's not lying or hiding behind anything (which is what he critized Lelouch on).
bladeofdarkness
2008-07-21, 12:47
Even without the accident, Lelouch was willing to use Geass to make Euphy shoot him so he could drag her name through the mud and destroy everything she worked for. He used his Geass to basically make EVERYONE who was watching him at Ashford his slave for life. Using the Geass to make people "lose their will" and do things he needs hem to even when they never would on their own is ALL he does with it. He used in this fashion against every single soldier he made follow his oreders, he used it like this aganst Clovis, he used it like this against Cornelia, he used it like this on Euphie, and he even used it like this on KALLEN at the beginning of the series. All this is the same as what Suzaku didn't want to lower himself to doing. I don't know if you were trying to say something completely different from what you actually tried to claim here, but the only appropriate response to it is "...lol wut?"
ok
1)making euphie shoot him was to prevent her from destroying everything he worked for
2)making the spies in ashford ignore him is not the same as making them slaves (and they were not there to be his friends)
3)i already said he uses it as a stratigic weapon (when commanding people is all your weapon can do then thats what you do with it)
4)clovis cornelia and kallen were asked questions (the first two were asked about his moms death and kallen was asked why she fights) and not made to do anything else
and none of them remembered it
and since someone is sure to equate that to what suzaku almost did with kallen i have a suggestion for you
rewatch that scene in ep 15 with suzaku and kallen
and then tell me that this scene (especially the part where the camera doesnt show them and all you hear is kallen screaming in progressivly louder tones) doesnt reek of a diffrent sort of action rather then questioning
needless to say that him proceeding with it would have made him a complete monster
small wonder he stopped
Dream_Traveller
2008-07-21, 12:50
Again, failure to read. It doesn't matter what kind of questions are asked, Lelouch manipulated people with his power to his own ends, and whilst he has more control over it, he still uses it for the same purpose in R2.
And...pfff, what? Everything he worked for? Didn't you even pay attention to the subtitles? He wanted Euphemia to shoot him just so that he could become a martyr and that the Japanese populace would sully Euphemia's name, not the opposite.
bladeofdarkness
2008-07-21, 12:51
Again, failure to read. It doesn't matter what kind of questions are asked, Lelouch manipulated people with his power to his own ends, and whilst he has more control over it, he still uses it for the same purpose in R2.
And...pfff, what? Everything he worked for? Didn't you even pay attention to the subtitles? He wanted Euphemia to shoot him just so that he could become a martyr and that the Japanese populace would sully Euphemia's name, not the opposite.
actually it was either that or he loses the OOBK and everything he worked for
and she did it with a few words
Dream_Traveller
2008-07-21, 13:20
...Lelouch didn't work towards the SAZ. Euphemia did. And if 'she' was a typo, somehow, that was unintentional and Geass had just permanently activated. Also, in no way was Lelouch even under the threat of losing what he worked towards, or the Order.
bladeofdarkness
2008-07-21, 13:29
...Lelouch didn't work towards the SAZ. Euphemia did. And if 'she' was a typo, somehow, that was unintentional and Geass had just permanently activated. Also, in no way was Lelouch even under the threat of losing what he worked towards, or the Order.
the SAZ was going to cancel the reison detre of the OOBK
incorrupts
2008-07-21, 13:44
Both Suzaku and Lulu have made terrible mistakes. That is like a fact.
Suzaku though, he got a reason to hate Lulu. Yes, he might not know exactly the whole truth about the Euphie incident, but what he's got, is enough for him wanting to eliminate Lulu. {same with Lelouch, Suzaku now is not exactly his cup of tea, it's a strong opponent.}
And please, last week majority of the fans were like "Suzaku is gonna use the Refrain, he sucks." He does not, "he still sucks, moral ethics blah blah"
If you wanna hate him, for the sake of hating him, cool but at least admit it.
{and i am a Lulu fan as well for the record, but i'm not gonna close my eyes and justify the massacre that happened on #14 and a lot of other stuff just cause he might seem worse that Suzaku on that epi :rolleyes:}
the SAZ was going to cancel the reison detre of the OOBK
Nope,the OoBK is some kind of "ally of justice" not a second JLF, their idea was to help the weak...or at least that was what LL preached.SAZ was inconvenient for LL plan so he decided to get rid of it by making his sister a murderer and him a martyr despite the facts that they was close as children or she's his best friend gf.And worse than what Suzaku did this episode,LL changed his mind in the middle not because he realize that his action was bad but because he realized Euphie meant no harm.
Discerptor
2008-07-21, 14:40
ok
1)making euphie shoot him was to prevent her from destroying everything he worked for
Except she was actually granting him everything he claimed to want out of his selfish "rebellion." Of course, he realised this only after she stroked his ego by giving up her right to be a successor to the throne.
2)making the spies in ashford ignore him is not the same as making them slaves (and they were not there to be his friends)
Yes, yes it is. And on top of that he made them say exactly what he wanted to anyone that asked. Did you not see how they responded to Suzaku's questions?
3)i already said he uses it as a stratigic weapon (when commanding people is all your weapon can do then thats what you do with it)
Refrain is a strategic weapon (when mind-altering out of people is all your interrogation can do, then that's what you can do with it). Luckily, at least Suzaku, unlike Lelouch, was able to see the fallacy in this.
4)clovis cornelia and kallen were asked questions (the first two were asked about his moms death and kallen was asked why she fights) and not made to do anything else
and none of them remembered it
And this is EXACTLY what Suzaku was about to do with Kallen, using a mind-altering drug.
and since someone is sure to equate that to what suzaku almost did with kallen i have a suggestion for you
rewatch that scene in ep 15 with suzaku and kallen
and then tell me that this scene (especially the part where the camera doesnt show them and all you hear is kallen screaming in progressivly louder tones) doesnt reek of a diffrent sort of action rather then questioning
needless to say that him proceeding with it would have made him a complete monster
small wonder he stopped
No, this is just proof that you're not looking at what's there to draw conclusions. You just want there to be reasons to hate Suzaku and are making up crap in the hopes that it somehow leads to an interpretation of Suzaku doing any horrible things you can think of, even when he would NEVER do those things. He's not Lelouch, who HAS tried to rape Kallen in the past (his whole "Comfort me... women can do that, right?" was just disgusting). Kallen was terrified of being made to betray Zero and the cause her brother died for with the very drug that hospitalised her mother. All this, and Suzaku was restraining her so she couldn't do a thing about it. Just this last part of your post alone has convinced me not to read anything else you post on the subject, because you're clearly just Suzaku-bashing in any way you can with no justification. So don't bother replying if you're expecting me to read.
bladeofdarkness
2008-07-21, 14:44
Except she was actually granting him everything he ever wanted out of his selfish "rebellion." Of course, he realised this only after she stroked his ego by giving up her right to be a successor to the throne.
Yes, yes it is. And on top of that he made them say exactly what he wanted to anyone that asked. Did you not see how they responded to Suzaku's questions?
Refrain is a strategic weapon (when mind-altering out of people is all your interrogation can do, then that's what you can do with it). Luckily, at least Suzaku, unlike Lelouch, was able to see the fallacy in this.
And this is EXACTLY what Suzaku was about to do with Kallen, using a mind-altering drug.
No, this is just proof that you're not looking at what's there to draw conclusions. You just want there to be reasons to hate Suzaku and are making up crap in the hopes that it somehow leads to an interpretation of Suzaku doing horrible things, even when he would NEVER do those things. He's not Lelouch, who HAS tried to rape Kallen in the past. Kallen was terrified of being made to betray Zero and the cause her brother died for with the very drug that hospitalised her mother. Just this last part of your post alone has convinced me not to read anything else you post on the subject, because you're clearly just Suzaku-bashing in any way you can with no justification. So don't bother replying if you're expecting me to read.
dude
might come as a shock to you
but i dont hate suzaku at all
i just think lulu isnt really as bad a guy as he thinks he is (when has lulu tried to rape kallen , if he did she'd kick his ass)
Discerptor
2008-07-21, 14:47
((Whoops, ignore this one. Can we delete posts?))
Dream_Traveller
2008-07-21, 14:48
Because saying that Suzaku didn't see the fallacy in using Refrain, and also implying that he was going to rape Kallen (I mean...what?) along with other things which would have made him a 'monster' is clearly not bashing.
bladeofdarkness
2008-07-21, 14:54
Because saying that Suzaku didn't see the fallacy in using Refrain, and also implying that he was going to rape Kallen (I mean...what?) along with other things which would have made him a 'monster' is clearly not bashing.
i call it as i see it
and thats not what i said
i said if he did use it he would be a monster (which he isnt since he didnt ,as per his character portrail up to this point in the story)
and i said the scene was too remenicent of a rape scene to ignore
and i dont think im the only one who thinks it
If Suzaku raped Kallen that would be HILARIOUS. He is not one to do that so it would be an interesting twist :D.
demon_god04
2008-07-21, 15:58
Except she was actually granting him everything he claimed to want out of his selfish "rebellion." Of course, he realised this only after she stroked his ego by giving up her right to be a successor to the throne.
Yes, yes it is. And on top of that he made them say exactly what he wanted to anyone that asked. Did you not see how they responded to Suzaku's questions?
Refrain is a strategic weapon (when mind-altering out of people is all your interrogation can do, then that's what you can do with it). Luckily, at least Suzaku, unlike Lelouch, was able to see the fallacy in this.
And this is EXACTLY what Suzaku was about to do with Kallen, using a mind-altering drug.
No, this is just proof that you're not looking at what's there to draw conclusions. You just want there to be reasons to hate Suzaku and are making up crap in the hopes that it somehow leads to an interpretation of Suzaku doing any horrible things you can think of, even when he would NEVER do those things. He's not Lelouch, who HAS tried to rape Kallen in the past (his whole "Comfort me... women can do that, right?" was just disgusting). Kallen was terrified of being made to betray Zero and the cause her brother died for with the very drug that hospitalised her mother. All this, and Suzaku was restraining her so she couldn't do a thing about it. Just this last part of your post alone has convinced me not to read anything else you post on the subject, because you're clearly just Suzaku-bashing in any way you can with no justification. So don't bother replying if you're expecting me to read.
Euphie was not granting Lelouch what he desired, and it is laughable to suggest so. Lelouch desired to destroy Britannia because it is corrupt and rotting, and intends to build something better in it's place. What Euphie was "granting" him was a false world that feigns tolerance in a small area of a small country. Something that could also be taken away by Britannia should they feel it necessary.
Refrain is not a strategic weapon, it is a drug that induces hallucinogenic effects. You have no control over what memories the person recalls and relives nor can you affect the person while he or she is under the affect of the drug as evidence by the users being completely oblivious to a firefight and being swung form the arm of the knightmare. In such a state they cannot be questioned and you are only hoping for a small chance that they recall the memory you want them to. Lelouch's geass on the other hand makes sure that the person is telling the truth as they know it without any unknown factors or much of a side affect other then memory loss unlike refrain.
Hate Suzaku? So thinking his stunt with using refrain is stupid and what he is doing is against international law is hating? For the record I do not hate Suzaku either, nor do I have a problem with him using refrain on Kallen if he would stop hiding behind is justifications and just come out and say that he is doing it because he hates Lelouch and can't forgive him rather then give a bull reason.
Lelouch has tried to rape Kallen? I am sorry but I laughed at that. Asking for comfort is raping now? He did not restrain her and tried to force himself on her right? He told her to comfort him if she means what she said about following any order, tried to kiss her and she slapped him. Now who is the one making up crap in the hopes of leading to a character doing a horrible thing? :rolleyes:
i call it as i see it
and thats not what i said
i said if he did use it he would be a monster (which he isnt since he didnt ,as per his character portrail up to this point in the story)
and i said the scene was too remenicent of a rape scene to ignore
and i dont think im the only one who thinks it
Rape? Come on... That's going a bit too far... He wanted information what good would have done it to rape her?
That scene was just a way to create suspense by making us think something like "ZOMG.. He really did it and now they're letting us wait!"
Yorae_paladin1
2008-07-21, 16:02
Euphie was not granting Lelouch what he desired, and it is laughable to suggest so. Lelouch desired to destroy Britannia because it is corrupt and rotting, and intends to build something better in it's place. What Euphie was "granting" him was a false world that feigns tolerance in a small area of a small country. Something that could also be taken away by Britannia should they feel it necessary.
Refrain is not a strategic weapon, it is a drug that induces hallucinogenic effects. You have no control over what memories the person recalls and relives nor can you affect the person while he or she is under the affect of the drug as evidence by the users being completely oblivious to a firefight and being swung form the arm of the knightmare. In such a state they cannot be questioned and you are only hoping for a small chance that they recall the memory you want them to. Lelouch's geass on the other hand makes sure that the person is telling the truth as they know it without any unknown factors or much of a side affect other then memory loss unlike refrain.
Hate Suzaku? So thinking his stunt with using refrain is stupid and what he is doing is against international law is hating? For the record I do not hate Suzaku either, nor do I have a problem with him using refrain on Kallen if he would stop hiding behind is justifications and just come out and say that he is doing it because he hates Lelouch and can't forgive him rather then give a bull reason.
Lelouch has tried to rape Kallen? I am sorry but I laughed at that. Asking for comfort is raping now? He did not restrain her and tried to force himself on her right? He told her to comfort him if she means what she said about following any order, tried to kiss her and she slapped him. Now who is the one making up crap in the hopes of leading to a character doing a horrible thing? :rolleyes:
I agree Lulu wouldn't rape kallen even if he tries kallen will bust his balls for it. Same with suzaku.
also suzaku would never do that if he did he would simply be hurting kallen out of spite whihc would make him even more dispicable than lelouch.
demon_god04
2008-07-21, 16:04
I agree Lulu wouldn't rape kallen even if he tries kallen will bust his balls for it. Same with suzaku.
also suzaku would never do that if he did he would simply be hurting kallen out of spite whihc would make him even more dispicable than lelouch.
Anger made him lose reason, he wanted to just find some outlet for it and using refrain because it has a small chance of getting what he wants and using limiting casualties as justification. In the end his strength of character and his resolve not be like Lelouch won out and he did not do anything.
Eliarine
2008-07-21, 16:07
Euphie was not granting Lelouch what he desired, and it is laughable to suggest so. Lelouch desired to destroy Britannia because it is corrupt and rotting, and intends to build something better in it's place. What Euphie was "granting" him was a false world that feigns tolerance in a small area of a small country. Something that could also be taken away by Britannia should they feel it necessary.
Euphie wanted to give the Japanese a place where they could live in peace and Lelouch was butthurt because that would take away his savior status. So he decided to create a riot and make it fail just so he could, guess what, give the Japanese a place where they could live in peace instead. Why are we still discussing this, by the way? Oh yes, parallelism between Geass and Refrain. I, for one, find this a very interesting comparison.
Anh_Minh
2008-07-21, 16:12
The problem wasn't with what Euphie wanted, but with what she was actually providing. Even she knew that it wouldn't be without its difficulties. Lelouch was "hurt" because it made him more vulnerable to Britania. It made it more likely that, not to put too fine a point on it, he and his sister would die at their enemies' hands.
The SAZ wasn't some el dorado where everything would be magically solved. It was a trap. In the end, to spare Euphie's feelings, he agreed to put forth his effort to turn it around and make it real instead of destroying it, but that's what it was.
bladeofdarkness
2008-07-21, 16:15
like i said the whole scene was just pointless on suzaku's part
am i glad that he didnt actually drug her becouse he he felt it was what lulu would do
yes (it shows he isnt a monster)
do i think he deserves to be praised for it
not so much
all it proves is that he's not that far gone yet that he would stoop to ANYTHING to reach his goals
its still wrong
it was wrong when he chose to do it
it was wrong when he tried to do it
and it was wrong when he chose not to do it after all
good for him that he's not a monster
but he was still willing to do it right up to that point
incorrupts
2008-07-21, 16:18
all it proves is that he's not that far gone yet that he would stoop to ANYTHING to reach his goals
its still wrong
it was wrong when he chose to do it
it was wrong when he tried to do it
and it was wrong when he chose not to do it after all
good for him that he's not a monster
but he was still willing to do it right up to that point
Um, contradiction?
demon_god04
2008-07-21, 16:18
Euphie wanted to give the Japanese a place where they could live in peace and Lelouch was butthurt because that would take away his savior status. So he decided to create a riot and make it fail just so he could, guess what, give the Japanese a place where they could live in peace instead. Why are we still discussing this, by the way? Oh yes, parallelism between Geass and Refrain. I, for one, find this a very interesting comparison.
Lelouch's ultimate goal is not to just give the Japanese a place to live in peace, but to free them from Britannian rule so he could use them in his fight against Britannia. And yes Euphie wanted to give the Japanese a place where they are treated equals and her intentions are certainly better then Lelouch's, but her SAZ was nothing more then a stopgap that the Britannian higher ups are humouring her with because it might keep the majority of the discontented Japanese happy for the time being and lessen Zero's power. And really considering the fact that the SAZ was not exactly well received, it is not like it is a true place of equality, adding to the fact that it is in one tiny city where they can be considered equals is not nothing more then a place where Britiannians can feign tolerance for the Numbers.
I'm just expressing my opinion about the subject in response to a post. :p
bladeofdarkness
2008-07-21, 16:22
Um, contradiction?
not so much
wanting to do something wrong and then not being able to do it in the end is not the same as knowing its wrong and therefor choosing not to do it from the start
thats all
Eliarine
2008-07-21, 16:24
And really considering the fact that the SAZ was not exactly well received
Unless you're talking about how it was received among the Britannians, I beg to disagree: there were quite a lot of Japanese people willing to sign up, even among the Black Knights. Euphie's idea was not perfect, but it would certainly have been a start, especially if Lelouch had decided to help her.
But...we're getting off-topic, aren't we? :p Not to mention this has already been discussed to death :eyespin:
incorrupts
2008-07-21, 16:25
not so much
wanting to do something wrong and then not being able to do it in the end is not the same as knowing its wrong and therefor choosing not to do it from the start
thats all
The fact that Suzu realized what was about to do was wrong and decided to back up is giving him zero credit huh? Yeah, sure. :/
bladeofdarkness
2008-07-21, 16:26
The fact that Suzu realized what was about to do was wrong and decided to back up is giving him zero credit huh? Yeah, sure. :/
it gives him credit for still being human and knowing right from wrong
what else did you expect
a freaking medal
like i said its not praise worthy
you dont praise someone for "not doing evil"
you praise them for doing good
incorrupts
2008-07-21, 16:30
it gives him credit for still being human and knowing right from wrong
what else did you expect
a freaking medal
like i said its not praise worthy
you dont praise someone for "not doing evil"
you praise them for doing good
I didn't say a medal {:rolleyes:} i just can see that some people are using different standards for some charas which is annoying like hell.
And no, not praise but don't make it seem like it was still a bad thing.
bladeofdarkness
2008-07-21, 16:39
I didn't say a medal {:rolleyes:} i just can see that some people are using different standards for some charas which is annoying like hell.
And no, not praise but don't make it seem like it was still a bad thing.
the fact he decided not to is in itself a good thing
the fact that he was going to in the first place is not
and different standards for different characters make sense when said characters hold themselves by different standards
after all he decided not to do it becouse he realized that's what lulu would do
MonkeyDude
2008-07-21, 16:46
The fact that Suzu realized what was about to do was wrong and decided to back up is giving him zero credit huh? Yeah, sure. :/
Suzaku didn't realize anything...The ONLY reason he stopped is due to the sole reason that he didn't want to become like Lelouch/Zero.
He was more than ready to drug her until he saw a vision of LL/Zero. His exact lines according to the sub goes like this:
"I can't be like him-"
Then he proceeds to throw away the refrain injector.
Now tell me...where in that line does he have some sort of moral epiphany? If he is true to his word of doing whatever it takes, then he would have drugged her. At least he would have followed his principles...
Eliarine
2008-07-21, 16:50
Now tell me...where in that line does he have some sort of moral epiphany? If he is true to his word of doing whatever it takes, then he would have drugged her. At least he would have followed his principles...
...maybe in the fact that he sees Zero as the epitome of evil so he doesn't want to become like him? :eyebrow:
SoldierOfDarkness
2008-07-21, 16:58
Suzaku didn't realize anything...The ONLY reason he stopped is due to the sole reason that he didn't want to become like Lelouch/Zero.
He was more than ready to drug her until he saw a vision of LL/Zero. His exact lines according to the sub goes like this:
"I can't be like him-"
Then he proceeds to throw away the refrain injector.
Now tell me...where in that line does he have some sort of moral epiphany? If he is true to his word of doing whatever it takes, then he would have drugged her. At least he would have followed his principles...
Because to him, Zero uses wrong and brutal methods to achieve his objectives.
Saying, "I can't be like him" is equivalent to saying, "this is wrong" and not the right way.
the fact he decided not to is in itself a good thing
the fact that he was going to in the first place is not
and different standards for different characters make sense when said characters hold themselves by different standards
Oh please.
How many movies and TV shows have you seen where a character just goes berserk like a wild elephant until someone snaps them out of it? Like where a police officer chases down a bad crook who killed a little school girl and beats him into a bloody pulp with the intention of killing him but then at the last minute realizes that he's not the bad guy and simply arrests him?
after all he decided not to do it becouse he realized that's what lulu would do
No it's not what Lelouch would do it's what ZERO would do.
It's obvious that Suzaku was not in his right mindset when he was preparing to drug Kallen, you see it in his eyes. And then right before he does it he snaps back to reality and realizes that drugging her was not right. Drugging her would make him no more better than the man he himself is trying to stop.
Oh wait. How many movies and shows do we have where you got a guy saying, "You do it and you'll become just like him!"
MonkeyDude
2008-07-21, 17:04
...maybe in the fact that he sees Zero as the epitome of evil so he doesn't want to become like him? :eyebrow:
Because to him, Zero uses wrong and brutal methods to achieve his objectives.
Saying, "I can't be like him" is equivalent to saying, "this is wrong" and not the right way.
So both of you are trying to say that Suzaku can always use Lelouch as a moral scapegoat? So Lelouch caring and doting for his sister is the epitome of evil? Since when did Lelouch become a standard for ethics in the first place?
Zero could have married off Tianzi to Tamaki just to show the CF that the BK owns them. Now what did he do? Zero could have abandoned Kallen as a casualty of war. Now what did he do? Zero could have forced Nunnally into accepting his will. Now what did he do?
Lelouch has kept his promise and hasn't broken a single promise to his sister. Yeah he is the epitome of evil alright:uhoh:
Blind Suzaku fanboyism...
Eliarine
2008-07-21, 17:06
So both of you are trying to say that Suzaku can always use Lelouch as a moral scapegoat? So Lelouch caring and doting for his sister is the epitome of evil? Since when did Lelouch become a standard for ethics in the first place?
Zero could have married off Tianzi to Tamaki just to show the CF that the BK owns them. Now what did he do? Zero could have abandoned Kallen as a casualty of war. Now what did he do? Zero could have forced Nunnally into accepting his will. Now what did he do?
Lelouch has kept his promise and hasn't broken a single promise to his sister. Yeah he is the epitome of evil alright:uhoh:
Blind Suzaku fanboyism...
I sure hope you're joking and ignoring everything that makes Suzaku hate Lelouch on purpose. :)
bladeofdarkness
2008-07-21, 17:08
actually i see it in his hair (it looks messed up)
and while im sure you are not really compering a "bad crook who killed a little school girl" with a "female (i dont care what people say, it does matter) POW who had nothing whatsoever to do with sherly's death,who is alreay in prison,and who is at his mercy" you have to admit that its not even remotly the same
SoldierOfDarkness
2008-07-21, 17:08
So both of you are trying to say that Suzaku can always use Lelouch as a moral scapegoat? So Lelouch caring and doting for his sister is the epitome of evil? Since when did Lelouch become a standard for ethics in the first place?
For crying out loud. Do I have to hand it out to you on a silver platter?
Lelouch created Zero to be the "warlock" who to everyone does what is necessary to achieve his objectives.
THe Zero being "evil" is what Suzaku has come to view of him and what Lelouch created. From Suzaku's perspective this is correct.
If you haven't noticed this is why I always keep Zero and Lelouch separate.
Blind Suzaku fanboyism...
Oh sure throw some insults in while your at it it's not going to get you anywhere.
You must've missed the insults that I've thrown at Suzaku awhile back.
and while im sure you are not really compering a "bad crook who killed a little school girl" with a "female (i dont care what people say, it does matter) POW who had nothing whatsoever to do with sherly's death,who is alreay in prison,and who is at his mercy" you have to admit that its not even remotly the same
Good lord must I explain everything or is you hatred so deep you refuse to see anything?
How many movies and TV shows have you seen where a character just goes berserk like a wild elephant until someone snaps them out of it?
The crook cop was just one of many examples.
Do you want me to list movies and shows where a character goes all out on some random guy who is affiliated with the main villan and roughs him up during interrogation to the point of nearly killing them? Or one where a soldier beats up a POW who may or may not have had anything to do with his best friend's death and yanks out a gun ready to kill him to the point that his comrades have to calm him down?
actually i see it in his hair (it looks messed up)
Well at least you got one point down.
So both of you are trying to say that Suzaku can always use Lelouch as a moral scapegoat? So Lelouch caring and doting for his sister is the epitome of evil? Since when did Lelouch become a standard for ethics in the first place?
Zero could have married off Tianzi to Tamaki just to show the CF that the BK owns them. Now what did he do? Zero could have abandoned Kallen as a casualty of war. Now what did he do? Zero could have forced Nunnally into accepting his will. Now what did he do?
Lelouch has kept his promise and hasn't broken a single promise to his sister. Yeah he is the epitome of evil alright:uhoh:
Blind Suzaku fanboyism...
There's no blind fanboyism/fangirlism involved.
Suzaku doesn't know the same things the viewer does. And he certainly doesn't know about Tianzi. He also doesn't know why Lelouch is going that far...
He's only seeing the effects. There is plenty of room for misinterpretation.
This episode just showed that he didn't want to become like the one he hunted (his opinion of him at least) that's all. Suzaku has blamed Zero for a lot of things but this time he just decided to not take a step further.
That's not the same as using him as a moral scapegoat.
SoldierOfDarkness
2008-07-21, 17:16
Which is WHY Suzaku wants to talk to Lelouch face to face about Euphie. He's been told about what happend by VV but he wants to hear it from Lelouch's side.
Discerptor
2008-07-21, 17:18
Euphie was not granting Lelouch what he desired, and it is laughable to suggest so. Lelouch desired to destroy Britannia because it is corrupt and rotting, and intends to build something better in it's place. What Euphie was "granting" him was a false world that feigns tolerance in a small area of a small country. Something that could also be taken away by Britannia should they feel it necessary.
Seeing as Lelouch himself thought differently and directly said he would have gained what he wanted, I'd say you're quite a bit off-base. Just an attempt to justify what Lelouch did as being a good thing.
Refrain is not a strategic weapon, it is a drug that induces hallucinogenic effects. You have no control over what memories the person recalls and relives nor can you affect the person while he or she is under the affect of the drug as evidence by the users being completely oblivious to a firefight and being swung form the arm of the knightmare. In such a state they cannot be questioned and you are only hoping for a small chance that they recall the memory you want them to. Lelouch's geass on the other hand makes sure that the person is telling the truth as they know it without any unknown factors or much of a side affect other then memory loss unlike refrain.
"Truth serum" drugs all work by knocking out brain functions that hopefully aid the ability to lie. They may not be perfect, but it's the best Suzaku had access to as an interrogation tool short of torture.
Hate Suzaku? So thinking his stunt with using refrain is stupid and what he is doing is against international law is hating? For the record I do not hate Suzaku either, nor do I have a problem with him using refrain on Kallen if he would stop hiding behind is justifications and just come out and say that he is doing it because he hates Lelouch and can't forgive him rather then give a bull reason.
He didn't do anything with refrain. He realised it was wrong, and he came to his senses when he realised it was wrong. I find it hilarious that people justify two outright genocides by Zero but think Suzaku almost going through with this and then stopping is an atrocity. And Suzaku hasn't done anything for the purpose of "getting back" at Lelouch. He hasn't forgiven him, but he doesn't do anything for the sake of spiting him either. There hasn't been a single example of this. That sort of childish reaction is what Lelouch has been doing as Zero against his father.
Lelouch has tried to rape Kallen? I am sorry but I laughed at that. Asking for comfort is raping now? He did not restrain her and tried to force himself on her right? He told her to comfort him if she means what she said about following any order, tried to kiss her and she slapped him. Now who is the one making up crap in the hopes of leading to a character doing a horrible thing? :rolleyes:
What did you think he was trying to do? The intent of that scene was incredibly obvious, especially with the point of WOMEN being able to comfort and Kallen being willing to follow ANY order. And Kallen DID slap the crap out of him before he could actually do anything. Lelouch epically failed, but he still wanted to take sexual advantage of Kallen, even if it was in the distress of what was going on with Nana-chan. Of course, this whole subject is admittedly irrelevant anyway since Suzaku doesn't know about that and thus it does not contribute to his perception of Lelouch.
incorrupts
2008-07-21, 17:19
There's no blind fanboyism/fangirlism involved.
Suzaku doesn't know the same things the viewer does. And he certainly doesn't know about Tianzi. He also doesn't know why Lelouch is going that far...
He's only seeing the effects. There is plenty of room for misinterpretation.
This episode just showed that he didn't want to become like the one he hunted (his opinion of him at least) that's all. Suzaku has blamed Zero for a lot of things but this time he just decided to not take a step further.
That's not the same as using him as a moral scapegoat.
Keyword. Which are certainly catastrophic. I can totally get Suzaku, i gotta say he's done his fair amount of shit but i get him.
Anh_Minh
2008-07-21, 17:23
So both of you are trying to say that Suzaku can always use Lelouch as a moral scapegoat? So Lelouch caring and doting for his sister is the epitome of evil?
Actually, that's a good point. Lelouch cares for Nunnaly. So does Suzaku. Does he go "Arg, I can't be like him"? No, he isn't bothered by the fact he cares for Nunnaly. Because he's not the irrational Lelouch hater you're trying to paint him as. It's not like he'll automatically conclude that whatever Lelouch does is evil. Though yeah, he's past giving him the benefit of the doubt. Can't blame him for that.
He changed his mind because what he was doing was evil. But the reason he was able to recognize it as evil, the reason that was able to cut through his rage induce blindness, was that it was one of the things he hated about Lelouch. He was able to recognize he was becoming what he was hating. But it's not like he hated it just because it was Lelouch. He hated it because it's wrong, as Lelouch himself would recognize - but to him, it's the lesser evil.
Sure, it'd have been better if he'd never gone there in the first place. Failing that, it'd have been better if he'd snapped out of it for a less personal reason. But all in all, he was still able to see that he was wrong, and to stop himself. That goes to his credit.
(That he failed to see the stupidity of his action doesn't. All his many other questionable acts remain questionable. But it's stupid to say he was wrong in the way he recognized his own evil just because his own experience with Lelouch was involved.)
SoldierOfDarkness
2008-07-21, 17:36
That he failed to see the stupidity of his action doesn't. All his many other questionable acts remain questionable. But it's stupid to say he was wrong in the way he recognized his own evil just because his own experience with Lelouch was involved.)
I dunno with the way Suzaku was talking about Refrain it seemed like it was some truth serum despite what we've seen.
So either Suzaku is deluding himself or the writers changed it.
Sports72Xtrm
2008-07-21, 18:23
You know a lot of people are hating Suzaku for his stance on trying to change Britannia from the inside because many of you guys think it's impossible and won't give it a chance. Many feel that it's naive to uncorrupt a corrupt government and anything Britannian isn't worth saving. However, we saw how Nunally was trying to get equal rights for the elevens in turn 15. Isn't that the start of an uncorrupt Britannia? Isn't what Zero doing going against everything Nunally is trying to accomplish? The night is always darkest before the dawn but I promise you the dawn is coming. Lelouch's actions is only prolonging that.
SoldierOfDarkness
2008-07-21, 18:47
No they hate him for opposing Lelouch.
OkAY! I wanted to do this earlier this week after watching ep 15 but life got in the way. Since I turn out to be right about Suzaku at least most of the time, who wants to bet on Suzaku asking Kallen to join forces with him in order to protect Nanally from the evil overlord who he knows will not hesitate to use the poor innocent disabled sweet sister of his arch=enemy in order to achieve his evil goals?
I mean, I didn't get the impression there was going to be much of a fight scene between the Lancelot and Gurren, they do seem to be of equal strength at some point but it's not... I dunno how to say this but.
Anyway, who bets? XD Cookies to teh winners lD?
SoldierOfDarkness
2008-07-21, 19:47
Well the opening sorta shows them "together" but defintely not fighting.
Having the two on Nunnally's side independent but not against Lelouch's factions would be interesting. Having both Guren and Lancelot protecting Japan and Nunnally's kingdom.
Vallen Chaos Valiant
2008-07-21, 19:49
OkAY! I wanted to do this earlier this week after watching ep 15 but life got in the way. Since I turn out to be right about Suzaku at least most of the time, who wants to bet on Suzaku asking Kallen to join forces with him in order to protect Nanally from the evil overlord who he knows will not hesitate to use the poor innocent disabled sweet sister of his arch=enemy in order to achieve his evil goals?
I mean, I didn't get the impression there was going to be much of a fight scene between the Lancelot and Gurren, they do seem to be of equal strength at some point but it's not... I dunno how to say this but.
Anyway, who bets? XD Cookies to teh winners lD?
Suzaku can't convince anyone to join him for anything. He isn't leadership material. Kallen can do better on her own than with Suzaku "leading".
bladeofdarkness
2008-07-21, 19:52
OkAY! I wanted to do this earlier this week after watching ep 15 but life got in the way. Since I turn out to be right about Suzaku at least most of the time, who wants to bet on Suzaku asking Kallen to join forces with him in order to protect Nanally from the evil overlord who he knows will not hesitate to use the poor innocent disabled sweet sister of his arch=enemy in order to achieve his evil goals?
I mean, I didn't get the impression there was going to be much of a fight scene between the Lancelot and Gurren, they do seem to be of equal strength at some point but it's not... I dunno how to say this but.
Anyway, who bets? XD Cookies to teh winners lD?
considering what did to her this ep (even without the drugs that has got to be trumatising) i cant see her working with him
Discerptor
2008-07-21, 20:06
The opening does seem to suggest Lancelot and Guren being together in a non-confrontational manner. I don't know if they will join for that reason, but I do think that Suzaku and Kallen will be working on the same side soon enough, apparently with redesigns courtesy of Lloyd.
Dream_Traveller
2008-07-21, 20:21
Call this post stupid if you will, but I doubt that the Albion turning to face the Guren and brandishing an MVS is hintng at a non-confrontational situation.
demon_god04
2008-07-21, 21:21
Seeing as Lelouch himself thought differently and directly said he would have gained what he wanted, I'd say you're quite a bit off-base. Just an attempt to justify what Lelouch did as being a good thing.
Considering the fact that Lelouch went in with that dumb plan of having Euphie shoot him with a ceramic gun in order to stop the SAZ, I'd say that was not what he wanted. And I think you have it wrong, I am not trying to justify any of Lelouch's actions right now, rather I am bagging on the SAZ because it is a dumb idea. It actually undermines chances for equality between the Numbers and the Britannians by insinuating that such a thing is impossible outside a small designated area that no Britannian is in. Rather then looking to stick them in "reserves" they should be trying to more effectively integrate the Numbers into Britannian society by perhaps improving the Honourary Britannian system. Such as removing some limitations on opportunities and such and giving the Numbers a more equal chance as a Britannian citizen after becoming an Honourary Britannian.
"Truth serum" drugs all work by knocking out brain functions that hopefully aid the ability to lie. They may not be perfect, but it's the best Suzaku had access to as an interrogation tool short of torture.
The basis of the truth drugs are basically like that, hence alcohol being considered an early form of truth serum. Yet refrain does not function like that. No truth drug is perfect, but refrain is not even viable enough to be considered a truth drug, and I believe I have already pointed out the reason why.
He didn't do anything with refrain. He realised it was wrong, and he came to his senses when he realised it was wrong. I find it hilarious that people justify two outright genocides by Zero but think Suzaku almost going through with this and then stopping is an atrocity. And Suzaku hasn't done anything for the purpose of "getting back" at Lelouch. He hasn't forgiven him, but he doesn't do anything for the sake of spiting him either. There hasn't been a single example of this. That sort of childish reaction is what Lelouch has been doing as Zero against his father.
What did you think he was trying to do? The intent of that scene was incredibly obvious, especially with the point of WOMEN being able to comfort and Kallen being willing to follow ANY order. And Kallen DID slap the crap out of him before he could actually do anything. Lelouch epically failed, but he still wanted to take sexual advantage of Kallen, even if it was in the distress of what was going on with Nana-chan. Of course, this whole subject is admittedly irrelevant anyway since Suzaku doesn't know about that and thus it does not contribute to his perception of Lelouch.
I wish you would actually read my post before responding, because nowhere did I condemn Suzaku solely for intending to use refrain, or justify Lelouch's killing sprees.
Hate Suzaku? So thinking his stunt with using refrain is stupid and what he is doing is against international law is hating? For the record I do not hate Suzaku either, nor do I have a problem with him using refrain on Kallen if he would stop hiding behind is justifications and just come out and say that he is doing it because he hates Lelouch and can't forgive him rather then give a bull reason.
Refrain does not have the properties that would allow for it to be a viable truth drug and using it solely with that intent is stupid. As the episode showed, had he ran into the intelligence division instead of trying to threaten Kallen with refrain, he would have gotten his answers already. He was blinded by anger, but managed to pull himself out of it before falling to it.
And what is still not rape, it is just Lelouch being a douche. He did not attack Kallen or anything, it wouldn't even be considered attempted rape.
Unless you're talking about how it was received among the Britannians, I beg to disagree: there were quite a lot of Japanese people willing to sign up, even among the Black Knights. Euphie's idea was not perfect, but it would certainly have been a start, especially if Lelouch had decided to help her.
But...we're getting off-topic, aren't we? :p Not to mention this has already been discussed to death :eyespin:
Ah sorry about that, I meant among Britannian it wasn't well received, was in a bit of a hurry typing that and I appolagise.
Well I agree that everything that needed to be said have already been said on the matter so I am content to leave it at that until someone wants to contest the point farther. :p :heh:
MonkeyDude
2008-07-21, 21:26
*shrugs*
Things would be so much easier if Suzaku wasn't so full of contradictions. I don't hate his character, I just find it extremely annoying to say compared to Lelouch.
I still believe that Suzaku is using LL/Zero as nothing more than a moral scapegoat. As long as he believes that his actions are the opposite of LL/Zero, then he can justify his actions as morally correct. If he just admits that he is an evil douchebag like Lelouch, then I'm sure people won't be as harsh when it comes to his character:heh:
Oh as for the SAZ...I always viewed it as like an internment camp. Those who would join it are those more likely to rebel against Britannia. Instead of having to quell the dissenting horde, they might as well place them in a specific spot so cleansing dissent becomes that much easier. Those living outside the SAZ would probably fare better since it shows that they are willing to confirm to Britannian rule, thus sacrificing their identity as 'Japanese' and living as an 'Eleven'.
ApostleOfGod
2008-07-21, 21:31
Seems like everyone picked up on the idea of Suzaku contradicting himself... Such a mainstream belief that dominated somehow, because of certain actions like "going against friend".
His history ain't great. He can't quite make up his mind either at times. He goes with the flow, but if he was so contradictory, why would he be Knight of Seven? All the Suzaku haters are overlooking what's infront of their eyes :uhoh:
And that's just the start. There's much more to it..
morbosfist
2008-07-21, 21:35
Reading through all the talk is a chore indeed, but from what I gather the contradiction is not in reaching his goal, but in how he reaches it.
MonkeyDude
2008-07-21, 21:57
I just go by his philosophy that the means must justify the end. Then his so called girlfriend dies (which still pretty much felt like a forced relationship to me) and he goes on his so called character change. I don't mind the whole "going against the friend" but I have a problem with "selling your friend in exchange for power".
Yeah it must suck living a privileged life during your childhood and killing your dad due to your own selfishness. I'm sure Suzaku led a life of hell compared to Lelouch and Nunnally. Why is he going with the flow when he is supposed to be changing the system, or did he forget his goals to focus on his personal vendetta against LL/Zero? The fact that he is a Knight of Rounds is a contradiction to his beliefs, but I guess that's a pointless argument given that he threw away his beliefs after Euphemia's death.
I try to analyze his character using both seasons, not just R2. Maybe that's why I find him full of contradictions...
ApostleOfGod
2008-07-21, 22:12
Put yourself in the shoes of this character for a second.
You have a friend. He's an abandoned prince. Later in the future, you see him. Then you find a man who tries to forcefully make his goals come true, regardless of methods. Same goals, different methods. Lulu thinks about the goal ahead and its significance in the end. Afterall, Suzaku isn't trying to get rid of the "Holy Britannian Empire". He's simply trying to change the system for the better. He doesn't hesitate and is commited to his tasks now. He's been a stray dog all his life. But he still holds on to that bit of freedom that he had. He's just making use of it when it's convenient, when it works.
Yeah sure he threw away the refrain and acted like his hands aren't stained with sin and crimes. But he's restraining. When you lose your love and you're not given an explanation for it, no matter how much the other person is repenting and thinking, you have no way of knowing. It's not Suzaku's mistake. Lulu never clarified the whole thing. It's just as Ep 15 said. Lulu really wants to be known, but he just can't right now. Being Zero and all, he brought himself this far. He can't just let go of everything he's accomplished. Heck, Suzaku doesn't even know about what's happening right now. Of course he's going to get continuously misled.
All in all, generalizing Lulu's "take hold of your destiny/make it come true" isn't a bad ideal at all. But Suzaku's "change from within" is naturally a better course. He hasn't demonstrated that all well because of Euphemia's death. If I had found out that my best friend casted an order on my love to kill people and ultimately kill her, basically using her as his advantageous pawn, I'd be pretty pissed off too. Especially when he continues to hesitate and runs away. When I get the chance, I'd take him down. Once you do that, what would you do, leave him hanging at the place? Taking him to the Emperor was a natural course. Regardless of backstabbing or not. I think for a person like Suzaku, who didn't value his life very much, losing something like Euphemia takes away his meaning. The one thing which kept him in reality went. And he still doesn't understand why.
Suzaku isn't contradictory. Rather, he's indecisive and mentally weak at times. His frailty of letting emotion take over goes overboard. Doesn't make him contradictory. I won't even go as far to say his actions are contradictory. They're simply paths that he took to reach his goal, while being blinded due to emotional takeover.
Damn, talked too much. I'll say less next time. :p
morbosfist
2008-07-21, 22:14
His "change from within" would be a better course in a different form of government. It's naive in the Britannian Empire, especially with how he's going about it. He just can't see it.
ApostleOfGod
2008-07-21, 22:24
His "change from within" would be a better course in a different form of government. It's naive in the Britannian Empire, especially with how he's going about it. He just can't see it.
Yeah, I can somewhat see where that comes from. In the Holy Britannian Empire, it doesn't go very far. You got an Emperor that's immortal.. and a whole bunch of stuff that he doesn't really know about. Still, he's trying. Not really right now though. Right now he's just getting on the OoTBK's butt, bent on the thought of... Revenge, fixing, restoring order, whatever else he can come up with. Still, he believes he's in the right. Can't blame him. He didn't kill an innocent girl working for the change that he believes in. A change that could have worked. Administration of Japan. But it failed due to friend's Geass.
His methods probably won't get far in the Empire. But that doesn't make him contradictory and wrong.
I prefer Cornelia's stance on the Geass, as well as Lulu's. Suzaku's more careless about all of Geass though, from what I see.
I just go by his philosophy that the means must justify the end. Then his so called girlfriend dies (which still pretty much felt like a forced relationship to me) and he goes on his so called character change. I don't mind the whole "going against the friend" but I have a problem with "selling your friend in exchange for power".
Just wondering but would you call the murderer of your lover/wife a friend?
Yeah it must suck living a privileged life during your childhood and killing your dad due to your own selfishness. I'm sure Suzaku led a life of hell compared to Lelouch and Nunnally. Why is he going with the flow when he is supposed to be changing the system, or did he forget his goals to focus on his personal vendetta against LL/Zero? The fact that he is a Knight of Rounds is a contradiction to his beliefs, but I guess that's a pointless argument given that he threw away his beliefs after Euphemia's death.
I try to analyze his character using both seasons, not just R2. Maybe that's why I find him full of contradictions...
I don't think he himself knows what he wants to do. I think he pretty much accepted that "Ok, I will help everyone as much as possible by showing the racists that we can do what they can do".
Vallen Chaos Valiant
2008-07-21, 22:42
I don't think he himself knows what he wants to do. I think he pretty much accepted that "Ok, I will help everyone as much as possible by showing the racists that we can do what they can do".
And Suzaku sort of did that... He got Charles to give him the KotR position by showing an 11 can be as much of a heartless bastard as a Britannian.:heh:
"I am a monster just like you! Can I join your club please?":eyespin:
lmao. that's one way to look at it i guess. >.<
MonkeyDude
2008-07-21, 22:47
Just wondering but would you call the murderer of your lover/wife a friend?
I don't think he himself knows what he wants to do. I think he pretty much accepted that "Ok, I will help everyone as much as possible by showing the racists that we can do what they can do".
Err they were lovers? I thought it was just a budding relationship cut short by Lelouch. I think the only reason he even liked Euphemia is due to the naivete they both shared. And I would call that person a murderer plain and simple. Of course I would probably ask why he/she did such a thing.
If he doesn't know what to do, then why sell out his friend in exchange for power? Again what has Suzaku done to help anyone other than himself? He has done nothing except let other people do the work for him. Not exactly changing the system, more like letting the system work for him.
@VCV
He couldn't resist the cookies:heh:
Err they were lovers? I thought it was just a budding relationship cut short by Lelouch. I think the only reason he even liked Euphemia is due to the naivete they both shared. And I would call that person a murderer plain and simple. Of course I would probably ask why he/she did such a thing.
If he doesn't know what to do, then why sell out his friend in exchange for power? Again what has Suzaku done to help anyone other than himself? He has done nothing except let other people do the work for him. Not exactly changing the system, more like letting the system work for him.
@VCV
He couldn't resist the cookies:heh:
I'm not the one to argues cause I don't feel strongly about this but Suzaku and Euphie expressed their feeling for each other before the incident. They were in love.
I wouldn't consider the person that lied to me, killed many people, including most importantly my lover, a friend. Hence, selling him out to further my goals wouldn't mean anything to me.
I already said what he has done. Him just being a KoR shows others that numbers are capable but of course this doesn't mean that Brits will change their views or that they will accept the numbers.
I'll agree that he hasn't done anything directly to help them. Infect, he aided in punishing/conquering/killing them(the numbers, including 11s).
That's why I said I don't feel strongly about this. He is like lost XD. I'm hoping he starts to be interesting again and try to achieve his goals or settle on a resolution, w/e it maybe, anything is fine because Suzaku feels like dead weight right now.
Err they were lovers?
Euphemia "ordered" him to love her,remember? And Suzaku sound very happy as he said "yes,your highness" too.Not very normal but cute,I guess.
Of course I would probably ask why he/she did such a thing.
Of course Suzaku also asked that question,what he receive for an answer was "It's was the past,forget it" (while she died just a few hours ago) and "you killed your dad too,remember?"
I'm still amaze that Suzaku didn't kill LL at that moment.
Again what has Suzaku done to help anyone other than himself? He has done nothing except let other people do the work for him. Not exactly changing the system, more like letting the system work for him
Something like improving the status of Area 11,remember Nunnally talking about Japan becoming a Satellite Area.
He can't change the system now so he's using it to his advantage,as long as he make use of the system good points,he's still fine..
morbosfist
2008-07-21, 23:09
He did nothing to affect that change in status. A year of good behavior, public executions (thank you Calares), and exile (which he was forced into) did that.
here is my opinion on Suzaku. But before that let i make it clear that i am not a fan of zero. Well it is more like i dont care what he did anymore. And yes, i know that zero is evil. And i do not intent on comparing who is more evil than who. Well, let get back on suzaku.
He has been know as a up tight moral person and considers everything he did is right and just. Yet after his lover died, he goes on a killing spree, let the emperor brainwash his friends (all his friends minus zero) and even uses nunnally for his purpose (to lure zero out). I understand that he has every rights to to get revenge. But he also drags and uses his friend, the ones that didnt do any harm to him in the first place. Yet, he still thinks and believes he did the right things. So i would like to ask that can i call him a denial bastard now or what? I would not be so pissed if he said out right that he is just freaking evil like every one else in the show, instead of seeing himself as some hero of justice and moral.
This is off topic: if i only have 2 choices: die by the hand of zero or suzaku, i would rather choose zero for i know he knows that it is evil. While suzaku just see it as justice and believes he is still a saint.
He did nothing to affect that change in status. A year of good behavior, public executions (thank you Calares), and exile (which he was forced into) did that.
So,why didn't they change the status under Carares, the exile plan was made and become a succeed get away of the OoBk was all because of Suzaku.He doesn't go out and do things as dramatic as LL but that doesn't mean he did nothing,don't deny him of every good thing..
But he also drags and uses his friend, the ones that didnt do any harm to him in the first place
He hasn't used anyone beside Nunnally,and I don't think the phone call stuff was extremely bad or evil
I would not be so pissed if he said out right that he is just freaking evil like every one else in the show
Was that conversation with Anya where he called himself a "sinner" not enough for you
This is off topic: if i only have 2 choices: die by the hand of zero or suzaku, i would rather choose zero for i know he knows that it is evil. While suzaku just see it as justice and believes he is still a saint.
I have serious doubt on Zero/Lelouch "become evil to defeat a greater evil stuff",did he really think so or was it just on of his public speech to improve his imagine? when he regain his memory I think he said he was not at fault but the world was.
morbosfist
2008-07-21, 23:47
So,why didn't they change the status under Carares, the exile plan was made and become a succeed get away of the OoBk was all because of Suzaku.He doesn't go out and do things as dramatic as LL but that doesn't mean he did nothing,don't deny him of every good thing..I'm not denying him anything, I'm just not giving him credit for something he had no hand in creating. Carares did the initial cleanup, Nunnally became the Viceroy specifically to succeed Euphy's will, and Lelouch orchestrated the exile. All Suzaku did in this entire equation was prevent a massacre. He doesn't get credit for improving the status simply because of that.
Ever since becoming Knight of Seven, Suzaku's done nothing but expand Britannia's rule by helping to wipe out the EU. He hasn't done crap to reach his goal since that point.
Carares did the abuse,Zero did the clean up,Suzaku and Nunnally do the administration afterward,after a while the Area got promoted...that's how I see it
morbosfist
2008-07-22, 00:09
Speaking from the perspective of getting the Area's status improved, Zero didn't do any cleanup. He made things worse and then got rid of himself. Carares made things better will all the executions. Suzaku has almost no hand in governing the Area. Participating in meetings has no effect on law and order. You're just trying to give him undue credit.
He hasn't used anyone beside Nunnally,and I don't think the phone call stuff was extremely bad or evil
Was that conversation with Anya where he called himself a "sinner" not enough for you
Is there such a measure in term of bad or evil? Besides, he should know how important zero to nunnally. Yet he intents to trick her to get her brother. It just like someone trick you to harone of your precious person (i wouldnt debate whether that person is good or bad, the point is you consider he/she as an irreplaceable one), woudnt you feel guilty and responsible for that person death?Sure i wouldnt call that extremely bad or evil. Furthermore, he also doesnt know what to do to nunnally when charles found out that lulu is zero again, he still goes a head and start his revenge plan. I wouldnt consider that an honorable action of a honorable hero. And he doesnt use his fellow students for sure, all he did is let them being brainwash so he can put spies and survillience on zero.
And i dont remmeber if he called himself a sinner, but he still beleives everything he did is right including the act of using nunnally and the rest of his friends. He thinks he still better then zero and condems him as evil. Ok, he can see him better than some one, but he is certainly already evil.
And i think you would agree that there is hardly an all good character in codegeass and suzaku certainly is not one. Isnt everyone agree on his focus on revenge? and so is zero and the terrorists that he is so hated. And i dont think focus on revenge is a virtue of a hero either.
Zero may blame one the world but he still realizes that he is evil and has done evil things. But if you want to hate him for that, be my guest for i do not bashing/criticing suzaku to make zero look better in anyway.
Participating in meetings has no effect on law and order
I disagree.He's the second most powerful person there beside Nunnally, he participates in meetings equal he's running the area,and that have a lot to do with law and order
morbosfist
2008-07-22, 00:22
His power has nothing to do with the Area. The one meeting we see him go to was about the Guren, and it wasn't in the same room as Nunnally discusses governing in. All was just military personnel. That has no affect on the Area, just their own concerns.
SoldierOfDarkness
2008-07-22, 00:32
Call this post stupid if you will, but I doubt that the Albion turning to face the Guren and brandishing an MVS is hintng at a non-confrontational situation.
It is?
All you see is Guren flying, then Lancelot flies under it and brandishes it's MSV sword and it is still facing us unless your implying Guren moved but Lancelot moved in front of it so Guren would techincally be behind Lancelot who is facing away from it.
All Suzaku did in this entire equation was prevent a massacre. He doesn't get credit for improving the status simply because of that.
Which was critical for the SAZ to work. To the Japanese the Britannians had lost all credibility in governing the area. Suzaku's actions in restraining the Britannians showed the Japanese that stayed behind that this time they were sincere.
The one meeting we see him go to was about the Guren, and it wasn't in the same room as Nunnally discusses governing in. All was just military personnel. That has no affect on the Area, just their own concerns.
Gino, Anya, and Suzaku were shown in a meeting with Britannian officials during episode 8 I believe when Nunnally just arrived in Japan.
You really don't think they are going to show ALL the meetings that are taking place do you?
Furthermore, he also doesnt know what to do to nunnally when charles found out that lulu is zero again, he still goes a head and start his revenge plan.
What? All we saw was Suzaku facing a dilemna and that was it. It doesn't show anything other than that and if spoilers are correct
He'll be meeting with Lelouch to talk with him
Is there such a measure in term of bad or evil? Besides, he should know how important zero to nunnally. Yet he intents to trick her to get her brother. Sure i wouldnt call that extremely bad or evil. Furthermore, he also doesnt know what to do to nunnally when charles found out that lulu is zero again, he still goes a head and start his revenge plan. I wouldnt consider that an honorable action of a honorable hero. And he doesnt use his fellow students for sure, all he did is let them being brainwash so he can put spies and survillience on zero.
And i dont remmeber if he called himself a sinner, but he still beleives everything he did is right including the act of using nunnally and the rest of his friends. He thinks he still better then zero and condems him as evil. Ok, he can see him better than some one, but he is certainly already evil.
And i think you would agree that there is hardly an all good character in codegeass and suzaku certainly is not one. Isnt everyone agree on his focus on revenge? and so is zero and the terrorists that he is so hated. And i dont think focus on revenge is a virtue of a hero either.
Zero may blame one the world but he still realizes that he is evil and has done evil things. But if you want to hate him for that, be my guest for i do not bashing/criticing suzaku to make zero look better in anyway.
I never said he was a saint or a hero, I just can't stand the way people make him look worse than he really is.The handling of the student council and Nunnally was not for Suzaku to decide,Charles did all that and Suzaku had no choice but to follow order.In the worst case possible,Suzaku can still protect Nunnally.Suzaku has a lot of rules he must accept in order to work toward his goal, he has a lot of restrictions and can't act freely.
Back in SS1,Suzaku was the closest thing to a hero CG had,but Euphemia's death changed him,so now he can't be a hero anymore since his first priority is revenge and saving people become a secondary goal....
All was just military personnel. That has no affect on the Area, just their own concerns.
What are the role of military personnels in an Area? They keep law and order,don't they?
Juvyniled
2008-07-22, 00:53
First and foremost, Suzaku could have simply killed Lelouch at the conclusion of Season 1. Now, to suggest that Suzaku had already planned to turn Lelouch over to the king and that Suzaku wanted Lelouch to suffer in doing so, suggests that he has some intellect. However, many proclaim that he is a moron (justifiably or hatefully motivated). I suggest you all pick one or the other because a moron isn't likely to conceive such a plan to use a person of great importance as a bargaining chip for a higher status, or even likely to consider that living is a greater punishment than death (I mean, that is pure poetry in a psychotic's mind, and I highly doubt that Suzaku is a subscriber to creativeness).
Secondly, it is very important to consider the points of view from characters themselves. Many have made judgment calls for either Suzaku or Lelouch based on THEIR OWN point of view, that of the audience. It can't be automatically presumed that characters have an understanding of their environment. This applies even to Lelouch because even though he has Geass, he is still unaware of the actions of others not in his vicinity.
morbosfist
2008-07-22, 00:53
Which was critical for the SAZ to work. To the Japanese the Britannians had lost all credibility in governing the area. Suzaku's actions in restraining the Britannians showed the Japanese that stayed behind that this time they were sincere.
Gino, Anya, and Suzaku were shown in a meeting with Britannian officials during episode 8 I believe when Nunnally just arrived in Japan.
You really don't think they are going to show ALL the meetings that are taking place do you?I can't find it in episode 8 or 7, the latter being when Nunnally arrived. I'll agree that they won't show every meeting, but it's important to note that the one meeting about governing the Area they actually show has Suzaku absent. Unless he's just participating of his own accord, it indicates he doesn't have much say in how the place gets run.
As for Suzaku allowing the exile, it only indicates he hasn't lost his morals. He didn't do anything to reach that point. He was in fact against the idea in the first place. He gets credit for stopping a massacre, but he was forced into it by Lelouch. Though it may have made the remaining Elevens a bit more willing to work with the Britannians (which I find doubtful), to give Suzaku credit for improving the Area's through a decision forced upon him is too much.
@DN24: I never said that you consider him a saint or hero. The point is that he still thinks he is a moral hero. That is what makes me angry at him. If he just admits that the evil things he has done is evil then I would not care whatever he wants to do next with the exception of nunnally, kaguya and CC.
On the side note, he sees himself as moral and all, but he still stands and does nothing knowing that his friends be brainwashed. He is still willing to work under charles. I dont think that suit who he claims to be very well. And he said he will change the system but he has to follow orders as less for now. And I woud not think that all the orders he is given are honorable considering how Britinia acts. So he fates to committe crime as some point which further show how denial he is.
animeboy12
2008-07-22, 00:58
I remember in s1 Lelouch said suzaku saved Japan from a worse fate by killing his father
SoldierOfDarkness
2008-07-22, 01:01
I can't find it in episode 8 or 7, the latter being when Nunnally arrived. I'll agree that they won't show every meeting, but it's important to note that the one meeting about governing the Area they actually show has Suzaku absent. Unless he's just participating of his own accord, it indicates he doesn't have much say in how the place gets run.
Episode 8. When Suzaku is going over about whether or not Lelouch has regained his memories and if so, to answer him why he killed Euphie.
I would not say that Suzaku does not have much say in how the place gets run. First and most of all, he's the Knight of 7, one of the Emperor's closest associates. Therefore he himself is a represenative of the Emperor. If Suzaku wishes to attend some meetings and make some decisions then he has the authority to do so.
If he doesn't attend most of the meetings then he simply doesn't and that's out of choice. In the long run he's not there to run the place anyways so it's better to leave it to the people who will stay there (nunnally for example).
As for Suzaku allowing the exile, it only indicates he hasn't lost his morals. He didn't do anything to reach that point. He was in fact against the idea in the first place. He gets credit for stopping a massacre, but he was forced into it by Lelouch. Though it may have made the remaining Elevens a bit more willing to work with the Britannians (which I find doubtful), to give Suzaku credit for improving the Area's through a decision forced upon him is too much.
Everybody gets credit.
Lelouch's operation was set up to give Nunnally and Britannia in general crediblity in governing them.
That and he removed the majority of those that don't want it anyways.
On the side note, he sees himself as moral and all, but he still stands and does nothing knowing that his friends be brainwashed. He is still willing to work under charles. I dont think that suit who he claims to be very well. And he said he will change the system but he has to follow orders as less for now. And I woud not think that all the orders he is given are honorable considering how Britinia acts. So he fates to committe crime as some point which further show how denial he is.
Yeah I think a lot too, in fact everyone does. They think this and think that.
And you know each and every single order that Suzaku has been given? You mind sharing that with us?
here is my opinion on Suzaku. But before that let i make it clear that i am not a fan of zero. Well it is more like i dont care what he did anymore. And yes, i know that zero is evil. And i do not intent on comparing who is more evil than who. Well, let get back on suzaku.
He has been know as a up tight moral person and considers everything he did is right and just. Yet after his lover died, he goes on a killing spree, let the emperor brainwash his friends (all his friends minus zero) and even uses nunnally for his purpose (to lure zero out). I understand that he has every rights to to get revenge. But he also drags and uses his friend, the ones that didnt do any harm to him in the first place. Yet, he still thinks and believes he did the right things. So i would like to ask that can i call him a denial bastard now or what? I would not be so pissed if he said out right that he is just freaking evil like every one else in the show, instead of seeing himself as some hero of justice and moral.
This is off topic: if i only have 2 choices: die by the hand of zero or suzaku, i would rather choose zero for i know he knows that it is evil. While suzaku just see it as justice and believes he is still a saint.
I'm not sure why you think Suzaku believes it was the morally right thing to do to deliver Lelouch to the Emperor, have his friends Geassed and using Nunnally to check her brothers memories...
In the flashback he said, that he wouldn't ask for Lelouch's forgiveness. Doesn't that sound like he knew what he was doing and that it was beyond questionable?
He also didn't get over his father's murder, he always viewed himself as a sinner...
Believing you are doing the right thing isn't the same thing as believing that you don't get your hands dirty. Lelouch also believes in his way of doing things, right?
Suzaku also is aware of the hazards his way brings.
Prejudice, Intolerance, Killing,... He said it himself that he was a soldier and that meant using a weapon if needed.
I'm not denying that he has delusions, or that he doesn't come off as preachy sometimes.
I don't think he's viewing himself as a beacon of Light and Justice though.
@Sodierofdarkness:
I dont know why you kind of getting angry at me or is it just my imagination?
But still here is the example you want: by enrolling in the army services, he is fate to killing. The scene he fought with the EU is the clearest example, or when he killed those so called territorists, or farther in time is when he crushed the interven china army in Japan. Ok, it is war, he is sodiler in battle field so he has to follow order and kill the enemies. And it is perfectly right for him to do so, after all what do you expect a sodier on the battlefield do? However, it does not change the fact that he has killed alot of his "enemies."
One must ask that ever since war is a good thing and killing in war is a honorable act. Go to battle field and kill as much enemies/bararian/whatever as you can for the sake of world peace/the motherland/whatever is a propandaga used by the goverment to muster and manipulate its people to war for its purpose. Suzaku killed britinia enemies makes him a hero in front of britinian (if they ever are proud of him that is) it doesnt change the fact that his hand is stain with blood of people from the other races outside of britinia. And i bet they would love to call him a hero.
Do you get what i try to say now? When you are involved in a war, sorry you are no longer innocent (with the exception of the red cross organization). But sadly, recently state goverment also begins to use the red cross uniform to deceive and deal with terrorists...
Besides how do you justify his action of doing nothing while his friends is being brainwashed? He can do nothing besides following orders to watch zero which may result in furhter harm for nunnally?
@canis: he may not believes it was the morally right thing to do. But he is still doing nothing and also take advantage of that (checking zero memories and spies). And isnt it like he accepts it to get his revenge? Since when silent to wrong does is a good thing? I do not say that you are obligate to stand up to fight "da power" like a hero. But if you stay silent then do not call yourself a hero. And yes, i know suzaku do not say out right that he is hero of justice. But he said more than enough about his preachy and sees zero as ultra evil while he is also the same.
Sure, zero beleives in his doing, but he knows he will have to get his hands dirty very dirty to get what he wants. But suzaku while condem of zero underhanded tactics also gets his hands dirty as hell. But he thinks his hands still clean and shiny. The fact that he still sees himself as more justice than zero is enought to show how delusional he is. I mean come on, he is a "white reaper" not a "white knight." But apparently, he can not see it.
Angry? Sorry, if it appeared that way it wasn't my intention...
But that was exactly what I was getting at. Suzaku doesn't believe he's innocent.
It's the opposite, he views himself as a sinner and he always did ever since he killed his father.
He doesn't like fighting, but he will do it if necessary...
He doesn't like killing but he will do so if he thinks it's necessary...
Suzaku has accepted his path and death is a part of it.
Angry? Sorry, if it appeared that way it wasn't my intention...
But that was exactly what I was getting at. Suzaku doesn't believe he's innocent.
It's the opposite, he views himself as a sinner and he always did ever since he killed his father.
He doesn't like fighting, but he will do it if necessary...
He doesn't like killing but he will do so if he thinks it's necessary...
Suzaku has accepted his path and death is a part of it.
The angry part doesnt direct at you. And you even said that he will killing if necessary then that just make his method similar to zero. But the point is suzaku still sees himself far moral and better than zero. I just cant make sene of his way of thinking.
Juvyniled
2008-07-22, 01:51
I dont know why you kind of getting angry at me or is it just my imagination?
But still here is the example you want: by enrolling in the army services, he is fate to killing. The scene he fought with the EU is the clearest example, or when he killed those so called territorists, or farther in time is when he crushed the interven china army in Japan. Ok, it is war, he is sodiler in battle field so he has to follow order and kill the enemies. And it is perfectly right for him to do so, after all what do you expect a sodier on the battlefield do? However, it does not change the fact that he has killed alot of his "enemies."
One must ask that ever since war is a good thing and killing in war is a honorable act. Go to battle field and kill as much enemies/bararian/whatever as you can for the sake of world peace/the motherland/whatever is a propandaga used by the goverment to muster and manipulate its people to war for its purpose. Suzaku killed britinia enemies makes him a hero in front of britinian (if they ever are proud of him that is) it doesnt change the fact that his hand is stain with blood of people from the other races outside of britinia. And i bet they would love to call him a hero.
Do you get what i try to say now? When you are involved in a war, sorry you are no longer innocent (with the exception of the red cross organization). But sadly, recently state goverment also begins to use the red cross uniform to deceive and deal with terrorists...
Not exactly sure what this has to do with morality. A soldier acts primarily under one instinct, kill or be killed. They cannot legitimately defy their orders. If Suzaku defies his orders he loses his status. Plain and simple. But yet, Suzaku has not been ordered directly ordered to murder unarmed civilians. The application of moral judgment to his actions is therefore invalid because he acts in accordance with the duties and necessities of a soldier.
@DN24: I never said that you consider him a saint or hero. The point is that he still thinks he is a moral hero. That is what makes me angry at him. If he just admits that the evil things he has done is evil then I would not care whatever he wants to do next with the exception of nunnally, kaguya and CC.
On the side note, he sees himself as moral and all, but he still stands and does nothing knowing that his friends be brainwashed. He is still willing to work under charles. I dont think that suit who he claims to be very well. And he said he will change the system but he has to follow orders as less for now. And I woud not think that all the orders he is given are honorable considering how Britinia acts. So he fates to committe crime as some point which further show how denial he is.
Area 11 does not fare any better without Suzaku's presence in the Britannian army. Suzaku is likely to face racism, but he still maintains influence. Not many a member of Britannian society would likely have considered addressing Eleven plight, nor would any other individual have been able to push such an issue. It's true that it was not of his own action, but Suzaku instigated such feelings into Euphemia, who translated it into action. Ineffective or otherwise, an idea was acted upon. Now, many argue that there were ulterior motives by higher ranking Britannians, but consider this: allowing such a leeway to those considered inferior would only undermine Britannian authority. Britannians who believe they are superior would likely view such action first and foremost as a sign of weakness (arguably pity, but Britannia promotes the idea of survival of the strongest and such action would only serve to continue the existence of inferior beings).
I remember in s1 Lelouch said suzaku saved Japan from a worse fate by killing his father
That is really a matter of perspective and personal judgment, not a fact.
@juvyniled: the moral is that one you kill for whatever reasons, you had commited a kill. The problem is that suzaku doesnt seem to have any problem while he follows orders and killed his enemies. SO can be said for zero who killed his enemies for his purpose and so are the rest of terorists who also killed their enemies. Suzaku condems zero and terorists killing as wrong and immoral, but he also killed his enemies. Hello, isnt there something very wrong here?
Furthermore, suazku has condemed the terorists even before they get civilians involed. Yes before, the narita battle. And you may say that suzaku only kills soldiers which is true. But the contries civilians that were defeated by him are being kill by the britinian goverment. Now dont say that it doesnt related to suzaku. However, suzaku apparently or at least the author doesnt show his regret or what ever feelings he has toward those people.
blitz1/2
2008-07-22, 02:20
Rewatched 15, I liked how calm and menacing Suzaku was when he asked Kallen if she knew who Zero was and told her to swear to Shirley's grave.
Too bad she didn;t get injected or killed, it would get rid of one useless character (Kallen).
morbosfist
2008-07-22, 02:24
Episode 8. When Suzaku is going over about whether or not Lelouch has regained his memories and if so, to answer him why he killed Euphie.
I would not say that Suzaku does not have much say in how the place gets run. First and most of all, he's the Knight of 7, one of the Emperor's closest associates. Therefore he himself is a represenative of the Emperor. If Suzaku wishes to attend some meetings and make some decisions then he has the authority to do so.
If he doesn't attend most of the meetings then he simply doesn't and that's out of choice. In the long run he's not there to run the place anyways so it's better to leave it to the people who will stay there (nunnally for example).
Everybody gets credit.
Lelouch's operation was set up to give Nunnally and Britannia in general crediblity in governing them.
That and he removed the majority of those that don't want it anyways.
He can make suggestions maybe, but his authority is in military, not in government. Sitting in and determining policy are two very different things. Lelouch's operation was set up to take Nunnally out of the picture. It wasn't to make the government seem credible. It was in fact mocking them by throwing the law in their faces.
I'll admit Suzaku's decision would give the people faith in the government, but he was between a rock and a hard place. It was either that or slaughter one million defenseless Zero look-alikes. Such an act might have likely sparked another rebellion. The only hand he had in any of this was being forced into making the call, thus I hardly consider his actions a contribution to improving Japan. This one instance aside, he's pretty much been consumed by the system he intends to change.
Deviannite
2008-07-22, 02:27
Rewatched 15, I liked how calm and menacing Suzaku was when he asked Kallen if she knew who Zero was and told her to swear to Shirley's grave.
Too bad she didn;t get injected or killed, it would get rid of one useless character (Kallen).
We'll it's a good think Kallen didn't die or get injected She's far too usefull.
Rewatched 15, I liked how calm and menacing Suzaku was when he asked Kallen if she knew who Zero was and told her to swear to Shirley's grave.
Too bad she didn;t get injected or killed, it would get rid of one useless character (Kallen).
Just for the sake of last post before bedtime.
Rewatched 15, I liked how afraid Suzaku was when he was lying to nunnally but got discoverd. :p
blitz1/2
2008-07-22, 02:34
We'll it's a good think Kallen didn't die or get injected She's far too usefull.
Only as Lulu's sex slave and a mech pilot.
@UFO: Nunally = final boss flag up!
DarkLordOfkichiku
2008-07-22, 02:54
Only as Lulu's sex slave and a mech pilot.
Now, that first thing isn't a nice thing to call her, is it, considering that she refused to be exactly that in episode 7, you know? :rolleyes:
blitz1/2
2008-07-22, 03:00
Now, that first thing isn't a nice thing to call her, is it, considering that she refused to be exactly that in episode 7, you know? :rolleyes:
meh...I was never a Kallen fan to begin with. She had too weak of a character anyways.
wow, if Nunnally leaves Suzaku he really has no more friends to support him. He'll become insane one day.
DarkLordOfkichiku
2008-07-22, 03:03
meh...I was never a Kallen fan to begin with. She had too weak of a character anyways.
Hey, I was never (and still isn't) a Suzaku fan to begin with either, but I don't go around insulting/bashing him just because I don't like him either :p .
wow, if Nunnally leaves Suzaku he really has no more friends to support him. He'll become insane one day.
Meh, as things stand now, Suzaku and Lelouch are both candidates for that :heh: :uhoh:
Juvyniled
2008-07-22, 03:07
@juvyniled: the moral is that one you kill for whatever reasons, you had commited a kill. The problem is that suzaku doesnt seem to have any problem while he follows orders and killed his enemies. SO can be said for zero who killed his enemies for his purpose and so are the rest of terorists who also killed their enemies. Suzaku condems zero and terorists killing as wrong and immoral, but he also killed his enemies. Hello, isnt there something very wrong here?
Furthermore, suazku has condemed the terorists even before they get civilians involed. Yes before, the narita battle. And you may say that suzaku only kills soldiers which is true. But the contries civilians that were defeated by him are being kill by the britinian goverment. Now dont say that it doesnt related to suzaku. However, suzaku apparently or at least the author doesnt show his regret or what ever feelings he has toward those people.
Suzaku does not have eyes all over the place. In one particular instance, Suzaku condemned Zero because he had threatened to release a bomb in the vicinity of civilians. And yes, he has repeatedly criticized Zero's actions. But you have to consider that he does not fully know what Zero's intentions are. He does not possess Geass; he is informed mostly by those who have a stake in the entire conflict. Consider the JLF rebels who decided to use hostages, IE. unarmed civilians, to get what they wanted. Is that not condemnable? Now if we consider another instance wherein civilians were murdered in the Shinjuku ghettos by Britannian forces, it was a completely confidential operation to retrieve the pod containing C.C. Suzaku was only left to believe that rebel retalliation in the ghettos resulted in civilian casualty.
We cannot expect Suzaku to know these things unless he was present at the incident.
If we ignore that you are letting your own personal opinions of Suzaku influence your comment, we cannot hold Suzaku accountable for the deaths of civilians. How can you honestly be even sure that the Brittanian government kill citizens just for the hell of it (I wouldn't doubt the possibility that some Britannians would, but a dead person does not work)? If the Britannian government was outright killing civilians, they would not provide allowances to defeated nations such as allowing Elevens any freedoms whatsoever.
blitz1/2
2008-07-22, 08:10
Hey, I was never (and still isn't) a Suzaku fan to begin with either, but I don't go around insulting/bashing him just because I don't like him either :p .
Meh, as things stand now, Suzaku and Lelouch are both candidates for that :heh: :uhoh:
sorry, yea, I shouldn't. It's just I am fed up with the other Suzaku bashers so I decide to take out my fury on another character.
well
psycho = win
demon_god04
2008-07-22, 08:59
Area 11 does not fare any better without Suzaku's presence in the Britannian army. Suzaku is likely to face racism, but he still maintains influence. Not many a member of Britannian society would likely have considered addressing Eleven plight, nor would any other individual have been able to push such an issue. It's true that it was not of his own action, but Suzaku instigated such feelings into Euphemia, who translated it into action. Ineffective or otherwise, an idea was acted upon. Now, many argue that there were ulterior motives by higher ranking Britannians, but consider this: allowing such a leeway to those considered inferior would only undermine Britannian authority. Britannians who believe they are superior would likely view such action first and foremost as a sign of weakness (arguably pity, but Britannia promotes the idea of survival of the strongest and such action would only serve to continue the existence of inferior beings).
Area does not fare any better with Suzaku's presence either. Euphie did not get the the urge to help people because of Suzaku, that is just the way she is. She found Lelouch again, and wanted to create the SAZ to help him and Nunally and the Japanese. If anything, Suzaku was the one that was changed by Euphie considering that he had wanted to just die looking like a martyr to ease his guilt. Euphie acted on her own desires, not Suzaku's.
The Britannians allowed the SAZ only after Euphie had to give up her title and claim to the throne. And even then only in the a tiny area, and really more then undermining Britannian authority, the SAZ insinuates that the Numbers cannot adapt and merge into Britannian society unless "quarantined" in a reserve. It underminds Suzaku's idea of changing the system so Numbers and Britannians could be treated equally, not just in a small area.
ZeroSama
2008-07-22, 09:23
Was it ever explained why Nunnally didn't have to pay a price to revive the SAZ like Euphie? Was Wakamoto just playing favourites or did he just not care.
Vallen Chaos Valiant
2008-07-22, 09:27
Was it ever explained why Nunnally didn't have to pay a price to revive the SAZ like Euphie? Was Wakamoto just playing favourites or did he just not care.
Britannia is in much more turmoil in R2. They probably let it happen this time because they are afraid of a full-blown revolt that they can't afford, as there is now a very real danger of being invaded by Anti-Britannian coalition forces. Zero is changing the political landscape.
ZeroSama
2008-07-22, 09:35
Britannia is in much more turmoil in R2. They probably let it happen this time because they are afraid of a full-blown revolt that they can't afford, as there is now a very real danger of being invaded by Anti-Britannian coalition forces. Zero is changing the political landscape.
The Emperor does not seem like the type of person to just let something happen though unless it's for his own amusement(Schenziel). Plus at the time the OotBK was on there last legs. They had all of 1 KMF and a sub, thats some resources.
And so what if the 11's rebel. Just go Euphie on them and leave none alive. Then they won't have to worry about any further uprising's(in area 11 anyway) and presnt a stern warning to the other area's.
Vallen Chaos Valiant
2008-07-22, 10:22
The Emperor does not seem like the type of person to just let something happen though unless it's for his own amusement(Schenziel). Plus at the time the OotBK was on there last legs. They had all of 1 KMF and a sub, thats some resources.
And so what if the 11's rebel. Just go Euphie on them and leave none alive. Then they won't have to worry about any further uprising's(in area 11 anyway) and presnt a stern warning to the other area's.
Someone has to mine the Sakuradite to support the war effort. Any mess in Area 11 could hamper supply of Sakuradite, which could be a signal for anti-Britannian forces to attack.
ZeroSama
2008-07-22, 10:35
Someone has to mine the Sakuradite to support the war effort. Any mess in Area 11 could hamper supply of Sakuradite, which could be a signal for anti-Britannian forces to attack.
That did not stop Miss Lomayher. She was prepared to sacrifice a large percentage of the work force as and example.
I say large but does anyone know the actual Japanese population of area 11 in CG?
It seems that alot of people died in the invasion, then more were killed to make managing the numbers simpler, then we have the policy of ghetto cleansing to weed out the undesirables(those who won't kneel to Britannia), the SAR and BR and finally how many have been killed since area11 gained correctional status.
Vallen Chaos Valiant
2008-07-22, 10:43
That did not stop Miss Lomayher. She was prepared to sacrifice a large percentage of the work force as and example.
I say large but does anyone know the actual Japanese population of area 11 in CG?
It seems that alot of people died in the invasion, then more were killed to make managing the numbers simpler, then we have the policy of ghetto cleansing to weed out the undesirables(those who won't kneel to Britannia), the SAR and BR and finally how many have been killed since area11 gained correctional status.
The people who gave the green light for the new special zone are likely not the same as those in league with Lomayher.
Factional politics is insane in Britannia. Different politicians have different priorities. Those who live in Japan would be more fearful of revolts than those who live on the mainland and don't give a damn.
ZeroSama
2008-07-22, 10:49
The people who gave the green light for the new special zone are likely not the same as those in league with Lomayher.
Factional politics is insane in Britannia. Different politicians have different priorities. Those who live in Japan would be more fearful of revolts than those who live on the mainland and don't give a damn.
Are politicians nobles? If not then what they think doesn't matter at all. The Emperor and the nobility are the ones with the real power and influence, the commoners have to make do on scraps.
If the nobility don't like the way the 11's are getting all upitty and nor respecting there betters then they may agree on ethnic cleansing. i mean just get there own citizenery to take the numbers place down the mines.
Vallen Chaos Valiant
2008-07-22, 10:58
Are politicians nobles? If not then what they think doesn't matter at all. The Emperor and the nobility are the ones with the real power and influence, the commoners have to make do on scraps.
If the nobility don't like the way the 11's are getting all upitty and nor respecting there betters then they may agree on ethnic cleansing. i mean just get there own citizenery to take the numbers place down the mines.
All politicians in Britannia are likely Nobles. It's just that massive military action in Area 11, even if temporarily, is not very safe for Nobles who live in Area 11 long term. Ethnic cleansing is all well and good normally, but we have China, India, and several others who are in the right position to invade if they think the shifting military forces and disrupted Sakuradite operations can lead to an opening for them to attack.
Diedrupo
2008-07-22, 11:03
I was under the impression the ethnic cleansing in the first couple eps of Code Geass S1 only took place because Clovis wanted to cover up the whole incident with CC. It's not as if they do it for fun.
Dream_Traveller
2008-07-22, 11:04
Clovis did say something along the lines of 'If this gets out, I'll be disinherited' or so, after all...
ZeroSama
2008-07-22, 11:05
I was under the impression the ethnic cleansing in the first couple eps of Code Geass S1 only took place because Clovis wanted to cover up the whole incident with CC. It's not as if they do it for fun.
I was refering to in the future if the 11's got uppity and rebelled again. They may just write them off as to much hassle to control and take the easy way out.
Clovis did say something along the lines of 'If this gets out, I'll be disinherited' or so, after all...
The problem with this is that its the same thing as the massacre at the SAR. The Britannian soldiers had no problem with these orders because they came from the Royalty. If Nunnally ordered a massacre of the 11's(keeps Krimzon happy) then that's that. No more Japanese apart from those that did a bunk with Zero. Genoicide is not abhorrent in the CG world.
bladeofdarkness
2008-07-22, 11:14
like the emps said
"people are not equal"
Diedrupo
2008-07-22, 11:17
The problem with this is that its the same thing as the massacre at the SAR. The Britannian soldiers had no problem with these orders because they came from the Royalty. If Nunnally ordered a massacre of the 11's(keeps Krimzon happy) then that's that. No more Japanese apart from those that did a bunk with Zero. Genoicide is not abhorrent in the CG world.
Yeah but what does that mean? That they'll obey orders? Euphemia's incident wasn't something that nobles normally order. In case you forgot, that whole thing is Lelouch's fault.
The two incidents of ethnic cleansing in CG so far have been situations that would never occur normally.
bladeofdarkness
2008-07-22, 11:22
Yeah but what does that mean? That they'll obey orders? Euphemia's incident wasn't something that nobles normally order. In case you forgot, that whole thing is Lelouch's fault.
The two incidents of ethnic cleansing in CG so far have been situations that would never occur normally.
normally
lets see
1st you have the events in shinjiku
2nd you have the same thing only with cornilia later
3rd you have the events at the SAZ
4th you have the events that almost happened in the SAZ (this time without the orders from the gov)
the britannian forces do not question orders.
ever.
thats why the captain of team zero said after the massacre at the cult that they were acting just like britannia
Diedrupo
2008-07-22, 11:40
1st you have the events in shinjiku
Clovis had that neighborhood cleared out to cover up what happened with CC. That's not normal.
2nd you have the same thing only with cornilia later
When did this happen?
3rd you have the events at the SAZ
Not normal, it was Lelouch's fault.
4th you have the events that almost happened in the SAZ (this time without the orders from the gov)
If they were trying to escape, that was a legitimate reason to attack.
bladeofdarkness
2008-07-22, 11:45
Clovis had that neighborhood cleared out to cover up what happened with CC. That's not normal.
the soldiers didnt know it was about that and they still didnt question orders
When did this happen?
ep 7 (lulu's first loss against cornelia)
Not normal, it was Lelouch's fault.
once again they didnt know
If they were trying to escape, that was a legitimate reason to attack.
legitimate reason ?
to kill one million people who are not threatning you in anyway
to kill one million people who are not threatning you in anyway
Those are the most dangerous 1 million of Area11,and they dress up as Zero-a terrorist,how are they less a threat than those people of the Cult
bladeofdarkness
2008-07-22, 11:53
Those are the most dangerous 1 million of Area11,and they dress up as Zero-a terrorist,how are they less a threat than those people of the Cult
didnt say they were less dangerous then the cult
i said they were not possing a threat to them
and isnt that the same as going to any prison on earth and saying "these are the most dangerous people in this area. lets kill them all"
Kovensky
2008-07-22, 11:55
The 1 million Zero where wishing to get out of Area 11. They would do more harm if they stood there than if they left.
Again, how do I spell "stay" in the past tense? ><
bladeofdarkness
2008-07-22, 11:58
The 1 million Zero where wishing to get out of Area 11. They would do more harm if they stood there than if they left.
Again, how do I spell "stay" in the past tense? ><
thats why you exile them
not butcher them
and im sorry but i'm not sure myself about the spelling
sorry:heh:
i said they were not posing a threat to them
Do they need to points guns at you to pose a threat? That 1 millions were mostly OoBK and dissidents,they are the one who cause all the unrests and staged a rebellion,a very dangerous group.
SoldierOfDarkness
2008-07-22, 12:00
@Sodierofdarkness:
I dont know why you kind of getting angry at me or is it just my imagination?
Your imagination. I guess having people argue against you just fires you up doesn't it?
But still here is the example you want: by enrolling in the army services, he is fate to killing. The scene he fought with the EU is the clearest example, or when he killed those so called territorists, or farther in time is when he crushed the interven china army in Japan. Ok, it is war, he is sodiler in battle field so he has to follow order and kill the enemies. And it is perfectly right for him to do so, after all what do you expect a sodier on the battlefield do? However, it does not change the fact that he has killed alot of his "enemies."
:confused:
You quoted about Suzaku committing dishonorable orders yet the examples you gave are those that involve him in being part of a defensive force (Chinese invasion) or spearheading an assault (the latter which forced France to make peace with Britannia rather than out right conquering them) or defeating terrorists.
If that's the case then every britannian soldier, no every soldier from your perspective is dishonorable for even participating in any operations.
One must ask that ever since war is a good thing and killing in war is a honorable act. Go to battle field and kill as much enemies/bararian/whatever as you can for the sake of world peace/the motherland/whatever is a propandaga used by the goverment to muster and manipulate its people to war for its purpose. Suzaku killed britinia enemies makes him a hero in front of britinian (if they ever are proud of him that is) it doesnt change the fact that his hand is stain with blood of people from the other races outside of britinia. And i bet they would love to call him a hero.
They call him a hero? :confused:They call him the grim reaper, you don't name heroes like that.
Do you get what i try to say now? When you are involved in a war, sorry you are no longer innocent (with the exception of the red cross organization). But sadly, recently state goverment also begins to use the red cross uniform to deceive and deal with terrorists...
No not really because it doesn't answer anything other than show that your very anti-war. All I asked was for you to share with us all the orders that Suzaku did that were horrible. Nobody said anything about Suzaku being innocent.
You claimed Suzaku is all high and mighty except he says otherwise. Even Anya sees that in him, the guy's just a glutton for self-punishment. He calls himself a terrible sinner and a horrible person. THe only thing going for him is to try and make Euphie's (And Nunnally's) dream come true.
Besides how do you justify his action of doing nothing while his friends is being brainwashed? He can do nothing besides following orders to watch zero which may result in furhter harm for nunnally?
Aside from being not in a sound mind at the time (for obvious reasons) I do not see what other choice he had. Though I suppose killing them off and replacing them with someone else would've been better by your perspective.
Of course if we go by the writers perspective it's better to keep them so they don't have to come up with new characters.
Sure, zero beleives in his doing, but he knows he will have to get his hands dirty very dirty to get what he wants. But suzaku while condem of zero underhanded tactics also gets his hands dirty as hell. But he thinks his hands still clean and shiny. The fact that he still sees himself as more justice than zero is enought to show how delusional he is. I mean come on, he is a "white reaper" not a "white knight." But apparently, he can not see it.
Uh no?
Do you zone out whenever Suzaku admits to the bad stuff that he himself is? Yes Lelouch admits to being a warlock and all but Suzaku pretty much says the same as well and never puts himself out as some knight in shining armor which you guys just seem to sprout out. Why you guys keep going on like that like a broken record I'll never understand.
Kovensky
2008-07-22, 12:01
@DN24: Then again, wouldn't it be better for Britannia to kick all those vandals outside of their territory? They were there to be kicked out anyways.
blitz1/2
2008-07-22, 13:44
@DN24: Then again, wouldn't it be better for Britannia to kick all those vandals outside of their territory? They were there to be kicked out anyways.
No! It would be better for Suzaku to order the execution of all! Need more Blood!!!
Dream_Traveller
2008-07-22, 13:44
You clearly don't understand Suzaku's character. :rolleyes:
Kovensky
2008-07-22, 13:45
Go watch something bloodier then :P
CG is about bleeding mechs! meh
blitz1/2
2008-07-22, 13:46
You clearly don't understand Suzaku's character. :rolleyes:
No, I haven't analysed to THAT extent, but I do have a vague understanding compared to the others, that's why I don't bash Suzaku. (I support him)
Don't mind my joke, I watch too many violent animes these days.
bladeofdarkness
2008-07-22, 13:48
No, I haven't analysed to THAT extent, but I do have a vague understanding compared to the others, that's why I don't bash Suzaku. (I support him)
Don't mind my joke, I watch too many violent animes these days.
anything you recommend (except elfen lied)
CG is about bleeding mechs! meh
Nuh uh... That is NGE...<.<'
Anyway, I am with Soldier on this. Suzaku even admit he isn't perfect. Why do people still insist on labling him as 'heroic' or what ever when he himself doesn't even see that.
Kovensky
2008-07-22, 14:55
I never watched NGE.
The "bleeding mechs" was a metaphore for whatever it meant. I'm a little confused right now to explain.
Eliarine
2008-07-22, 15:13
Anyway, I am with Soldier on this. Suzaku even admit he isn't perfect. Why do people still insist on labling him as 'heroic' or what ever when he himself doesn't even see that.
I guess it goes with the fact that he condemns Zero's methods: people tend to assume it means he sees himself as some kind of Saint.
I'm also baffled by the fact that no matter what kind of horrible thing Lelouch decides to do, he always gets the "he's a good guy deep down", "he's doing this for the greater good" excuse, but apparently Suzaku needs to start handing out candy to orphans before he can get any sort of justification.
Protip 1: Neither Lelouch nor Suzaku is "good" or "bad"
Protip 2: That is what makes Code Geass interesting.
SoldierOfDarkness
2008-07-22, 15:49
I guess it goes with the fact that he condemns Zero's methods: people tend to assume it means he sees himself as some kind of Saint.
.
What Suzaku did with Kallen isn't anymore different than if Lelouch was planning on doing something against another person's will but then changes his mind.
bladeofdarkness
2008-07-22, 16:11
What Suzaku did with Kallen isn't anymore different than if Lelouch was planning on doing something against another person's will but then changes his mind.
with the add bonus being that if lulu changes his mind the person he was going to use doesnt even know about it
whether or not suzaku used refrain on her
i dont think kallen is likely to forget what he did to her (or threaten to do)
Diedrupo
2008-07-22, 16:12
with the add bonus being that if lulu changes his mind the person he was going to use doesnt even know about it
whether or not suzaku used refrain on her
i dont think kallen is likely to forget what he did to her (or threaten to do)
Not like it matters since Kallen has wanted to kill Suzaku for a while.
morbosfist
2008-07-22, 16:14
She wanted to defeat him and his uber "White-Head" (something needs to sooner or later). Now she'll have the motivation to kill him.
bladeofdarkness
2008-07-22, 16:14
Not like it matters since Kallen has wanted to kill Suzaku for a while.
dont think she actually wanted to kill him before (they were fairly civil at that party)
aside from combat
and thats not personal
SoldierOfDarkness
2008-07-22, 16:15
with the add bonus being that if lulu changes his mind the person he was going to use doesnt even know about it
whether or not suzaku used refrain on her
i dont think kallen is likely to forget what he did to her (or threaten to do)
No but I think it gives Kallen ammo later on.
Say if Suzaku puts Lelouch in hot water or is about to do something really bad, Kallen can always come out and state, "your not that type of person!"
bladeofdarkness
2008-07-22, 16:17
No but I think it gives Kallen ammo later on.
Say if Suzaku puts Lelouch in hot water or is about to do something really bad, Kallen can always come out and state, "your not that type of person!"
more likey it gives her a reason to actually try and kill him (not just beat him in a mecha but actually want to kill him)
SoldierOfDarkness
2008-07-22, 16:18
more likey it gives her a reason to actually try and kill him (not just beat him in a mecha but actually want to kill him)
No no no.
If he actually DID it and drugged her then yes.
Or if he was about to drug her and someone interrupted or changed his mind external then yes.
But he relented and pulled back by his OWN accord so she now knows that there's a line Suzaku wouldn't cross.
bladeofdarkness
2008-07-22, 16:21
No no no.
If he actually DID it and drugged her then yes.
But he relented and pulled back so she knows he wouldn't cross the line.
he did scare the shit out of her (she was actually crying)
and considering she's a pilot same as him thats got to hurt her pride
i think if anything the fact that he didnt cross the line might convince her to spare him if she did have him down for the count
but she'd still hate him
SoldierOfDarkness
2008-07-22, 16:36
he did scare the shit out of her (she was actually crying)
and considering she's a pilot same as him thats got to hurt her pride
i think if anything the fact that he didnt cross the line might convince her to spare him if she did have him down for the count
but she'd still hate him
I'm sure that Kallen's not just there for "fanservice" She'll be dealing with both Suzaku and Lelouch later on.
She's not a mad woman.
dont think she actually wanted to kill him before (they were fairly civil at that party)
aside from combat
and thats not personal
She tried to assassinate him twice. How is that 'civil?':eyebrow:
bladeofdarkness
2008-07-22, 16:50
She tried to assassinate him twice. How is that 'civil?':eyebrow:
the wedding party in r2
not the one at ashford (and even then she didnt want to kill him becouse she hated him but becouse diethart convinced her it would help zero)
the wedding party in r2
They didn't even talk to each other...
not the one at ashford (and even then she didnt want to kill him becouse she hated him but becouse diethart convinced her it would help zero)
That is an excuse on the first part, but what about the second time?
bladeofdarkness
2008-07-22, 16:55
They didn't even talk to each other...
That is an excuse on the first part, but what about the second time?
they also didnt really display open hostility
second time ?
when was that
they also didnt really display open hostility
They also didn't display... well, anything.
second time ?
when was that
During episode 22.
Eliarine
2008-07-22, 17:08
They also didn't display... well, anything.
Lies! They looked at one another, that has to mean something!
...I'll get my coat.
bladeofdarkness
2008-07-22, 17:09
They also didn't display... well, anything.
exactly
During episode 22.
she didnt really try to kill him so much as aproching him with preperd for a fight (she was thinking it might be a trap)
and they did seem to make up during that ep
now however...
kaefer_zwei
2008-07-22, 17:10
Suzaku's really disconnected from the series...
Is Kallen ever gonna ask him, why does he hate lulu that much?
or what if he just told Kallen about what had happened?
Even if you have all the fighting skill's nothing beats a good talk... if he opens up to kallen and nunally he might have a chance ...
she didnt really try to kill him so much as aproching him with preperd for a fight (she was thinking it might be a trap)
and they did seem to make up during that ep
now however...
Actually, I see it different. He didn't use it and probably hates himself for even attempting to do it, so I don't think she will be as unforgiving as you think she will be.
But still, it isn't 'civil' when you try to kill somebody twice.
bladeofdarkness
2008-07-22, 17:12
Actually, I see it different. He didn't use it and probably hates himself for even attempting to do it, so I don't think she will be as unforgiving as you think she will be.
But still, it isn't 'civil' when you try to kill somebody twice.
once again im not saying its totally unforgivable
im just saying she's bound to be pissed off (to the max)
and i was talking about the events of r2 wedding party when i said that
SoldierOfDarkness
2008-07-22, 17:15
once again im not saying its totally unforgivable
im just saying she's bound to be pissed off (to the max)
and i was talking about the events of r2 wedding party when i said that
Pissed off to the max because he chose NOT to drug her?
Sure she'll be a mad at him but that's a little extreme.
bladeofdarkness
2008-07-22, 17:19
Pissed off to the max because he chose NOT to drug her?
Sure she'll be a mad at him but that's a little extreme.
pissed of to the max becouse he scared her half to death while she was completely at his mercy
thats got to hurt your pride (as a fighter at least)
incorrupts
2008-07-22, 17:21
pissed of to the max becouse he scared her half to death while she was completely at his mercy
thats got to hurt your pride (as a fighter at least)
Kallen will be mad at him cause it's the opponent anyway.
I don't think she will hold the Refrain event as a + grudge as well.
pissed of to the max becouse he scared her half to death while she was completely at his mercy
thats got to hurt your pride (as a fighter at least)
Ah, that is a lame excuse to be mad to the max. If he used it she would have every right to be mad to the max, but he didn't. She can be mad and upset with some hurt pride, but I don't think she is going to be unforgiving.
bladeofdarkness
2008-07-22, 17:24
Ah, that is a lame excuse to be mad to the max. If he used it she would have every right to be mad to the max, but he didn't. She can be mad and upset with some hurt pride, but I don't think she is going to be unforgiving.
for the millionth time
pissed off doesnt equal unforgivable
blitz1/2
2008-07-22, 17:40
Suzaku's really disconnected from the series...
Is Kallen ever gonna ask him, why does he hate lulu that much?
or what if he just told Kallen about what had happened?
Even if you have all the fighting skill's nothing beats a good talk... if he opens up to kallen and nunally he might have a chance ...
I can totally see that happening...
Kallen: (still restrained) Why do you hate Zero so much?
Suzaku: Have you ever lose someone that was irreplacable to you?
Kallen: (just a little nod)
Suzaku: It seems that we are a bit similar. What Zero did was destroying her dreams and even took her chance of redemption. (cracking up)
Kallen: Her?
Suzaku: It's not someone you would like? You despise her.
Kallen: ?
Suzaku (looks at Kallen firmly): She is Euphemia.
Kallen: Oh I see, the massacre princess huh? (evil grin)
Suzaku (slaps her hard): AS I THOUGHT! YOU DIDN'T UNDERSTAND AFTER ALL! HER DREAMS OF CREATING A PLACE WHERE JAPANESE AND BRITANNIANS COULD LIVE IN PEACE WERE SHATTERED BY ZERO!
Kallen: She ordered the massacre of....
Suzaku: Shut up! A pawn of Lelouch will not understand at all! Have you forgotten the amount of unnecessary blood that was shed on Zero's behalf?!
(turns around to Nunnally) She is the only one left to carry Euphie's will. My hands are too stained with blood...
Ending 1:
(Suzaku frees Kallen)
Suzaku: Next time I see you, if you get in my way, I will kill you...
Ending 2:
(Suzaku still keeps Kallen in the cell)
Suzaku: Kallen, you will understand one day. When one's dreams are shattered for another's gain...
morbosfist
2008-07-22, 17:42
Except for the slap and ending one, I could see that happening. I doubt it will, though. Suzaku's too damn righteous to go into such detail when Kallen's a prisoner.
bladeofdarkness
2008-07-22, 17:43
I can totally see that happening...
Kallen: (still restrained) Why do you hate Zero so much?
Suzaku: Have you ever lose someone that was irreplacable to you?
Kallen: (just a little nod)
Suzaku: It seems that we are a bit similar. What Zero did was destroying her dreams and even took her chance of redemption. (cracking up)
Kallen: Her?
Suzaku: It's not someone you would like? You despise her.
Kallen: ?
Suzaku (looks at Kallen firmly): She is Euphemia.
Kallen: Oh I see, the massacre princess huh? (evil grin)
Suzaku (slaps her hard): AS I THOUGHT! YOU DIDN'T UNDERSTAND AFTER ALL! HER DREAMS OF CREATING A PLACE WHERE JAPANESE AND BRITANNIANS COULD LIVE IN PEACE WERE SHATTERED BY ZERO!
Kallen: She ordered the massacre of....
Suzaku: Shut up! A pawn of Lelouch will not understand at all! Have you forgotten the amount of unnecessary blood that was shed on Zero's behalf?!
(turns around to Nunnally) She is the only one left to carry Euphie's will. My hands are too stained with blood...
Ending 1:
(Suzaku frees Kallen)
Suzaku: Next time I see you, if you get in my way, I will kill you...
Ending 2:
(Suzaku still keeps Kallen in the cell)
Suzaku: Kallen, you will understand one day. When one's dreams are shattered for another's gain...
since both know about the geass he might mention it
Except for the slap and ending one, I could see that happening. I doubt it will, though. Suzaku's too damn righteous to go into such detail when Kallen's a prisoner.
No he isn't. I think he wants to get it off his chest personally.
bladeofdarkness
2008-07-22, 17:45
No he isn't. I think he wants to get it off his chest personally.
again he would mention the geass
might be what they ment about her beliefs being shaken
morbosfist
2008-07-22, 17:51
If he were going to try to shake her faith in Lelouch, he would have done so by now. Plus, she already overheard the conversation in 25. He might assume she put the pieces together.
lousylaus
2008-07-22, 18:10
Huh, wasn't Kallen right there when Zero killed Euphie. Why would she even need to ask him why he hate Zero?
Ronin Aquila
2008-07-22, 18:11
CG is about bleeding mechs! meh
That would be Escaflowne The Movie. :heh:
Eliarine
2008-07-22, 18:14
Huh, wasn't Kallen right there when Zero killed Euphie. Why would she even need to ask him why he hate Zero?
I think we're talking about the possibility that she might not know why Zero killed her: because he geassed her into a mass-murderer.
SoldierOfDarkness
2008-07-22, 18:35
That would be Escaflowne The Movie. :heh:
Well Gundam SEED DID had a bleeding mech when Ed the ripper tore that ZAFT suit to pieces and it bled out oil :heh:
bladeofdarkness
2008-07-22, 18:37
Well Gundam SEED DID had a bleeding mech when Ed the ripper tore that ZAFT suit to pieces and it bled out oil :heh:
full metal panic had one
when guren stabed that gray (thats her name) chick
blitz1/2
2008-07-22, 21:25
since both know about the geass he might mention it
Yea, but Suzaku wouldn't mention it. To him, he thinks it is Lulu is at fault for abusing the power, not the power itself was wrong.
ZeroSama
2008-07-23, 05:28
I think we're talking about the possibility that she might not know why Zero killed her: because he geassed her into a mass-murderer.
He didn't deliberatley geass her into it though, but i guess it's just splitting hairs.
Now Kallen knows about the geass and how it works but i would say that her innate hate of all thing Britannian(apart from SC and Lulu obviously) is blinding her to the fact that it could have happened.
Whereas Suzaku's innate distrust of Zero is blinding him to the fact that it was anything but deliberate.
Both Suzaku and Kallen have been shown to want to know what makes lelouch tick. Kallen from a romantic POV and Suzaku simply wanting to know why he did what he did.
I see kallen having doubt's when/if the truth comes out but remaing loyal while Suzaku still hating Lulu.
Whereas Suzaku's innate distrust of Zero is blinding him to the fact that it was anything but deliberate.
Why would he believe it's an accident?
attobyte
2008-07-23, 09:36
After the talk with Shirley I think Suzaku may end up forgiving Lelouch however I don't see it happening unless Lelouch clears Yufie's name.
DarkLordOfkichiku
2008-07-23, 09:38
Why would he believe it's an accident?
Well, at this point it hasn't crossed his mind. But we know that Suzaku is sort of... confused for a lack of better term - because he knows that Lelouch isn't the kind of person who'd do that and yet, the Euphie-event tells (from his POV) something entirely else...
Discerptor
2008-07-23, 09:40
Both Suzaku and Kallen have been shown to want to know what makes lelouch tick. Kallen from a romantic POV [...]
Um... what? Kallen has made it clear since the beginning of R2 that while she's fanatically loyal to Zero, she holds no such strong positive feelings for Lelouch the student/person.
EDIT: Wait... I just saw your title thing under your username... perhaps we should move this branch into the Kallen character discussion thread if it goes any further.
Anh_Minh
2008-07-23, 09:42
No, he doesn't know what Lelouch would or wouldn't do. They've been apart a long time. And if Lelouch could hide he was, you know, a superpowered terrorist, what other dark parts of himself could he hide?
Why would it occur to him you could have an accident with Geass? "Sorry, I was cleaning my eye, when it fired by itself"? Especially when it's so convenient.
DarkLordOfkichiku
2008-07-23, 09:43
Um... what? Kallen has made it clear since the beginning of R2 that while she's fanatically loyal to Zero, she holds no such strong positive feelings for Lelouch the student/person.
That was at the beginning of R2, friend :p . Since then, the one she has been getting to know and grow closer to is not Zero but Lelouch. Still, this is the Suzaku thread, so... :uhoh:
Well, at this point it hasn't crossed his mind. But we know that Suzaku is sort of... confused for a lack of better term - because he knows that Lelouch isn't the kind of person who'd do that and yet, the Euphie-event tells (from his POV) something entirely else...
Yes, but my point is why are people getting on Suzaku's case for not thinking it's an accident. I kill your girlfriend and then laugh in your face about it--are you going to assume I stabbed her on accident?
anidote.org
2008-07-23, 11:55
well i watched the latest code geass on www.anidote.org and suzaku is getting more and more annoying, he seems to be getting emo/hate something. Its annoying cuz he was kinda cool at first =(
SoldierOfDarkness
2008-07-23, 12:41
Well, at this point it hasn't crossed his mind. But we know that Suzaku is sort of... confused for a lack of better term - because he knows that Lelouch isn't the kind of person who'd do that and yet, the Euphie-event tells (from his POV) something entirely else...
Because he knew that Lelouch geassed him into 'living'.
Suzaku reasons that despite the fact that Lelouch geassed Euphie he believes that Lelouch would've had other measures rather than just out right killing her.
Though that reasoning would indicate that he's aware that it was an accident but holds the grudge for Lelouch pulling the trigger as he believes Lelouch would've had another way to help her (Which is why he wants to ask Lelouch himself).
incorrupts
2008-07-23, 12:46
Yes, but my point is why are people getting on Suzaku's case for not thinking it's an accident. I kill your girlfriend and then laugh in your face about it--are you going to assume I stabbed her on accident?
Yeah and remember that in the finale just before it was revealed that Suzu knew about Geass, Zero/Lulu told him at that point "even though Euphemia tried to assasinate all Japanese blah you're still on her side." {thing that plus-pissed of Suzaku}
We, the viewers know that it was an accident {though i still believed that Lulu could figured another way than saving her} Suzu knows nothing and well the result he sees:: Euphie died by the hand of Zero/Lulu. Can't blame Suzaku at all.
ZeroSama
2008-07-23, 12:48
Yes, but my point is why are people getting on Suzaku's case for not thinking it's an accident. I kill your girlfriend and then laugh in your face about it--are you going to assume I stabbed her on accident?
Well if Lulu manages to let bygones be bygones with Rolo then hopefully Suzaku can do the same with Lulu.
SoldierOfDarkness
2008-07-23, 12:50
Well if Lulu manages to let bygones be bygones with Rolo then hopefully Suzaku can do the same with Lulu.
Like hell Lelouch is letting bygones be bygones. He wants to axe him off first chance he gets.
ZeroSama
2008-07-23, 12:53
Like hell Lelouch is letting bygones be bygones. He wants to axe him off first chance he gets.
He may have calmed down a little now though. Or at least have more important things on his plate.
SoldierOfDarkness
2008-07-23, 12:56
He may have calmed down a little now though. Or at least have more important things on his plate.
Circumstances dictate that he'll have to wait for another time before dealing with Rollo but no way in hell is he forgiving him for murdering Shirely in cold blood.
minnadaisuki
2008-07-23, 12:57
I don't think Suzaku will forgive Lelouch on what he did to Euphemia. However, we all know that it was all an accident that Lelouch didn't intentionally ordered Euphemia to kill all the Elevens.
Suzaku is still stubborn about Lelouch. He is still blaming Lelouch for the death of Shirley on which it is unacceptable. :frustrated:
SoldierOfDarkness
2008-07-23, 13:00
Suzaku is still stubborn about Lelouch. He is still blaming Lelouch for the death of Shirley on which it is unacceptable. :frustrated:
You guys are priceless, your hatred is just ridiculous.
You mind elaborating how it's unacceptable for Suzaku to blame Lelouch for Shirely's death?
The coroners say that she committed suicide but he's aware that Shirely's better than that. He thinks that Lelouch has killed hi cold blood and it's the only reasonable explanation he can come up with with what he knows.
How is he suppose to know some rabid maniac dog killed her out of jealousy?
ZeroSama
2008-07-23, 13:06
You guys are priceless, your hatred is just ridiculous.
You mind elaborating how it's unacceptable for Suzaku to blame Lelouch for Shirely's death?
The coroners say that she committed suicide but he's aware that Shirely's better than that. He thinks that Lelouch has killed hi cold blood and it's the only reasonable explanation he can come up with with what he knows.
How is he suppose to know some rabid maniac dog killed her out of jealousy?
He's not.
In the end Suzaku is letting his own assumptions get the better of him. I'm not saying that its justified or unjustified to assume Lulu guilt. He has plenty of evidence that Lulu is a manipulative killer, but Lulu did jump off a ledge to try and save her 5mins earlier which should be alittle evidence in his defence.
incorrupts
2008-07-23, 13:11
He's not.
In the end Suzaku is letting his own assumptions get the better of him. I'm not saying that its justified or unjustified to assume Lulu guilt. He has plenty of evidence that Lulu is a manipulative killer, but Lulu did jump off a ledge to try and save her 5mins earlier which should be alittle evidence in his defence.
I gotta agree here. About Shirley incident, i think Suzu is kinda prejudiced and biased. While with Euphie he saw Zero shooting her, with Shirley he's got no evidence. So he shouldn't jump at conclusions and accusations at all.
bladeofdarkness
2008-07-23, 13:23
hes also out to prove that lulu is zero
not that he killed sherly
as if if the first is true then it also means the second is
ZeroSama
2008-07-23, 13:27
as if if the first is true then it also means the second is
Only from Suzaku's lulu is the devil perspective. the one does not equal the other.
minnadaisuki
2008-07-23, 13:41
You guys are priceless, your hatred is just ridiculous.
You mind elaborating how it's unacceptable for Suzaku to blame Lelouch for Shirely's death?
The coroners say that she committed suicide but he's aware that Shirely's better than that. He thinks that Lelouch has killed hi cold blood and it's the only reasonable explanation he can come up with with what he knows.
How is he suppose to know some rabid maniac dog killed her out of jealousy?
My apologies if I'm getting one sided. However, Suzaku doesn't have the proof that Lelouch did kill Shirley. What made him think that Lelouch did it? I know that Suzaku is aware that Shirley didn't commit suicide. However, among all of the people to blame, why Lelouch? :D
By the way, I'm not a Lelouch or Suzaku fan here. This is just my observation about his false accusations. :D
Eliarine
2008-07-23, 13:44
However, Suzaku doesn't have the proof that Lelouch did kill Shirley. What made him think that Lelouch did it? I know that Suzaku is aware that Shirley didn't commit suicide. However, among all of the people to blame, why Lelouch? :D
Right now, Suzaku thinks Lelouch geassed Euphemia on purpose to mass-murder the Japanese on purpose so he could drag her name in the dirt and be seen as a savior to achieve his own goals. Lelouch never did mention that it was an accident when Suzaku confronted him. So the guy now believes Lelouch is a horrible monster that will stop at nothing to get what he wants.
because to him Lulu can and would do it.
bladeofdarkness
2008-07-23, 13:47
Right now, Suzaku thinks Lelouch geassed Euphemia on purpose to mass-murder the Japanese on purpose so he could drag her name in the dirt and be seen as a savior to achieve his own goals. Lelouch never did mention that it was an accident when Suzaku confronted him. So the guy now believes Lelouch is a horrible monster that will stop at nothing to get what he wants.
that still doesnt explain why he blames the guy who jumped off a ledge to save her an hour before
the guy who even suzaku thinks should be her boyfriend (he asks why lulu is with another woman in anya's picture when he already has sherly)
ZeroSama
2008-07-23, 13:48
that still doesnt explain why he blames the guy who jumped off a ledge to save her an hour before
the guy who even suzaku thinks should be her boyfriend (he asks why lulu is with another woman in anya's picture when he already has sherly)
Really Suzaku needs to figure out his own feeling's. Either you hate the guy or you don't. Don't be so bloody wishy-washy.
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