Character Discussion - Suzaku [Archive] - Page 23

Vakir

2008-08-11, 19:03

In fact I am not changing the rules. Suzaku's Geass only activates when he gives up or expects to die, not when he merely has a chance.

That's only because there hasn't been any other situation where he was going to die but gives up. I would think that being ordered to live means it would have to happen regardless. There's zero reason to think only that exclusive circumstance would apply. If your order is to live, you need to do whatever you can to live.

He only gave that order after their battle got underway.

Think back to episode 17. I know it was a long time ago, really, but think: the same exact thing would've happened anyway.

Regardless of your personal opinions on the matter, not to appeal to authority, but the writers specifically set things up so you're not supposed to blame Suzaku and are supposed to sympathize. I know that won't change how you react, but generally that's how it's supposed to work.

FlareKnight

2008-08-11, 19:03

And as I have said, just because there was no escape does not mean his Geass would activate. Giving up is what did it. As for why he was fighting, he never had to fight. He eliminates his own options. He didn't have to humor Nina and he didn't have to fly out with the bomb.I just disagree on that point. Realizing he was going to die is what activated it. The geass wasn't "live only if you don't feel like it" it was a command to stay alive. When it was clear he wasn't going to be able to then it kicked in. Deciding to atone made him not want to make pointless moves, but thinking he was about to be killed is what did it. And how after all these posts are we back at the discussion of why he went out with the bomb? Didn't we discuss this point to death yesterday? Not even going to bother there.He obviously thought he stood a chance when Gino made the offer. Does he think so little of Gino's skills? It was only after he decided she wouldn't let him go and attacked her that the reality set it.Kallen took down Bradley in only a few moments. Its already 2 on 1 against Gino. You think any skills will matter once it becomes 3 on 1 with one of those being the Guren? Suzaku knew that Gino would be annihilated in that kind of situation. No matter how skilled he is its suicide. Unless you want to argue Gino could beat all three of them?

morbosfist

2008-08-11, 19:05

The problem with just dropping said weapon and gun would risk it getting taken by the enemy. Also, didn't he take it out only after the Geass kicked in?

Um, yes? It his still heavy as hell. Do you think anyone had time to wait for it to be taken down by heavy machinery? Yeah right.Not if he did it on the Avalon. What's Nina gonna do? He has the detonator and the Knightmare-sized rifle is lying on the floor of a empty hanger. Yes, he only fired it once Geass activated, but that doesn't affect how easy it is to remove.

The weapon in itself was a bluff (or at least used as a deterrent).

You can't use it as a detterent if you don't even have it on the field.Incorrect. The mere existence of the weapon is enough, assuming people believe you.

SoldierOfDarkness

2008-08-11, 19:06

He can just drop the weapon inside the Avalon. He could not sensibly bring out a weapon of that magnitude, that no one had ever heard of before, and think a bluff would work. The same happened in WWII. No one believed what the atomic bomb did, until... it did it.

"Zero, the Avalon is ready to fire a tactical weapon. Give up now."

I'm pretty sure that everyone except maybe Lloyd, Cecile and Suzaku had no problem firing the weapon.

That and Zero would've called the bluff anyways and Nina or someone would've launched it themselves.

Sports72Xtrm

2008-08-11, 19:07

He can just drop the weapon inside the Avalon. He could not sensibly bring out a weapon of that magnitude, that no one had ever heard of before, and think a bluff would work. The same happened in WWII. No one believed what the atomic bomb did, until... it did it.

"Zero, the Avalon is ready to fire a tactical weapon. Give up now."

Well the problem with that var is that he didn't want anyone else to use. It would have gone like
""Zero, the Avalon is ready to fire a tactical weapon. Give up now."
"No."
KABOOM
"That was the Eleven ghetto Shniezel" ;_;
"What of it?":cool:

Var

2008-08-11, 19:07

I'm pretty sure that everyone except maybe Lloyd, Cecile and Suzaku had no problem firing the weapon.

That and Zero would've called the bluff anyways and Nina or someone would've launched it themselves.

He did not have to actually have it armed on the Avalon. If its a bluff, just have it disabled. I'm certain Lloyd is smart enough to disable a weapon.

The point is that there are other options to bringing the weapon onto the field directly.

morbosfist

2008-08-11, 19:08

I just disagree on that point. Realizing he was going to die is what activated it. The geass wasn't "live only if you don't feel like it" it was a command to stay alive. When it was clear he wasn't going to be able to then it kicked in. Deciding to atone made him not want to make pointless moves, but thinking he was about to be killed is what did it.It wasn't just thinking he was going to die. He said "this is my atonement" and then told himself to accept his death. That is what activated it.

Kallen took down Bradley in only a few moments. Its already 2 on 1 against Gino. You think any skills will matter once it becomes 3 on 1 with one of those being the Guren? Suzaku knew that Gino would be annihilated in that kind of situation. No matter how skilled he is its suicide. Unless you want to argue Gino could beat all three of them?Presumably, if Suzaku were to go along, they would trade opponents.

Sports72Xtrm

2008-08-11, 19:09

He did not have to actually have it armed on the Avalon. If its a bluff, just have it disabled. I'm certain Lloyd is smart enough to disable a weapon.

The point is that there are other options to bringing the weapon onto the field directly.

How is Lloyd, a knighmare egineer going to disable a completely new weapon that he never helped make. And no there wasn't.

SoldierOfDarkness

2008-08-11, 19:11

He did not have to actually have it armed on the Avalon. If its a bluff, just have it disabled. I'm certain Lloyd is smart enough to disable a weapon.

The point is that there are other options to bringing the weapon onto the field directly.

And I'm sure Nina's smart enough to re-arm the bomb anyways. Schenzeil's the top authority in that case.

With Suzaku taking it, he ensures that no one will ever fire it.

Though everyone seems to have forgotten about his live geass at that point:heh:

morbosfist

2008-08-11, 19:11

How is Lloyd, a knighmare egineer going to disable a completely new weapon that he never helped make. And no there wasn't.Yes, there was. Suzaku is just not smart enough and too stuck on his orders to know better. Lloyd is an engineer and a scientist. He's worked on enough weapons to disarm a detonator.

Var

2008-08-11, 19:12

Presumably, if Suzaku were to go along, they would trade opponents.

Agreed. Gino set himself to fight Kallen with his words and no forms of restraint from either side (which I'm certain will now happen at some point given everything he said that episode, Gino threw up his own death flag... much like Luciano). Suzaku would have taken on Jeremiah and Guilford, which would have likely been a better fight, while the more mobile Tristan would have fought the more mobile Guren. In general, that should have been a better match.

And I'm sure Nina's smart enough to re-arm the bomb anyways. Schenzeil's the top authority in that case.

With Suzaku taking it, he ensures that no one will ever fire it.

Though everyone seems to have forgotten about his live geass at that point:heh:

I'm still sure that Lloyd, a man that is a genius at what he does, could figure out how to disable a detonator so that a little girl wouldn't figure out. If nothing else, he could just lock up the only other KMFs on the Avalon.

Orga777

2008-08-11, 19:13

He did not have to actually have it armed on the Avalon. If its a bluff, just have it disabled. I'm certain Lloyd is smart enough to disable a weapon.

The point is that there are other options to bringing the weapon onto the field directly.

Have it disarmed? Under who's authority? And I also don't think Lloyd knows the specifics of said weapon since that really isn't his specialty.

If Suzaku didn't bring it, it would have been used. Plain and simple.

Sports72Xtrm

2008-08-11, 19:14

Yes, there was. Suzaku is just not smart enough and too stuck on his orders to know better. Lloyd is an engineer and a scientist. He's worked on enough weapons to disarm a detonator.

Even if he was he would need atleast time to figure it out and the authority to even touch it which he doesn't have. If Shneizel found out Lloyd was disabling the bomb, he'd be in jail.

Var

2008-08-11, 19:14

Even if he was he would need atleast time to figure it out and the authority to even touch it which he doesn't have. If Shneizel found out Lloyd was disabling the bomb, he'd be in jail.

The Avalon has capacity for only two-three KMFs, if the Freya is left on it, how is it going to get fired?

morbosfist

2008-08-11, 19:15

Even if he was he would need atleast time to figure it out and the authority to even touch it which he doesn't have. If Shneizel found out Lloyd was disabling the bomb, he'd be in jail.They mounted it on his mech. That's all the authority he needs, especially if Suzaku tells him to.

sLum

2008-08-11, 19:15

Agreed. Gino set himself to fight Kallen with his words and no forms of restraint from either side (which I'm certain will now happen at some point given everything he said that episode, Gino threw up his own death flag... much like Luciano). Suzaku would have taken on Jeremiah and Guilford, which would have likely been a better fight, while the more mobile Tristan would have fought the more mobile Guren. In general, that should have been a better match.

Then what? Gino dies and the bomb still goes off? What you are saying sacrifices an additional character for no good reason. This is fairly simple

Suzaku/ USA:
WE HAVE "THE BOMB" SURRENDER OR DIE

Japan/ Lelouch:
LIAR!

(USA sends notes all over the cities of the eminent attacks)

Result:
Mass destruction

Whose to blame here? Both parties but one gave a warning.

Edit: People you can't have it both ways. It can either be removed easily and attached easily or it takes a while to install and detach it. If it could be installed easily and attached easily then believe Schneizal would've went trigger happy with the bomb.

morbosfist

2008-08-11, 19:18

Then what? Gino dies and the bomb still goes off? What you are saying sacrifices an additional character for no good reason. This is fairly simple

Suzaku/ USA:
WE HAVE "THE BOMB" SURRENDER OR DIE

Japan/ Lelouch:
LIAR!

(USA sends notes all over the cities of the eminent attacks)

Result:
Mass destruction

Whose to blame here? Both parties but one gave a warning.I've said this at least three times now. The US gave no warning about the bomb. They said, "Give up or die." Japan didn't buy it.

The bomb wouldn't have gone off if Gino was killed. Suzaku's life controlled the bomb. If Suzaku genuinely let Gino take the helm, he'd be free and clear.

Sports72Xtrm

2008-08-11, 19:18

The Avalon has capacity for only two-three KMFs, if the Freya is left on it, how is it going to get fired?

Knowing Nina she was probably going to try to fire it with a normal KMF like she was trying to pilot the Lancelot. If he dropped it and took with the Lancelot that is. Or ask a Britannian soldier to do it.

morbosfist

2008-08-11, 19:19

Knowing Nina she will probably going to try to fire it with a normal KMF like she trying to pilot the Lancelot if he dropped it and took with the Lancelot. Or ask a Britannian soldier to do it.There were no other Knightmares to do that with. That hanger was empty.

Orga777

2008-08-11, 19:20

There were no other Knightmares to do that with. That hanger was empty.

Why can't they load it onto the Avalon's weapons?:eyebrow: Or just call in a scrub Sutherland or Gareth from battle to blast the thing?:eyebrow:

sLum

2008-08-11, 19:21

There were no other Knightmares to do that with. That hanger was empty.

Yea Schneizal could never have asked one of the KMF's orbiting his flagship to come in.

morbosfist

2008-08-11, 19:21

The Gareth units have no hands, the rest are busy fighting, and you do not trust a weapon of such potential destructive power to a grunt.

Var

2008-08-11, 19:21

Why can't they load it onto the Avalon's weapons?:eyebrow: Or just call in a scrub Sutherland or Gareth from battle to blast the thing?:eyebrow:

If Suzaku unloads the gun but takes the gun with him, and leaves the bomb. What are they going to do? :heh: And what soldier would go on a suicide mission to fire a weapon like that?

Sports72Xtrm

2008-08-11, 19:22

There were no other Knightmares to do that with. That hanger was empty.

She would call Shniezel and order one like a pizza to drop by the Avalon which will show up in like ten minutes then.

morbosfist

2008-08-11, 19:23

She would call Shniezel and order one like a pizza to drop by the Avalon which will show up in like ten minutes then.Covered this. You don't trust grunts to such an endeavor.

Sports72Xtrm

2008-08-11, 19:24

If Suzaku unloads the gun but takes the gun with him, and leaves the bomb. What are they going to do? :heh: And what soldier would go on a suicide mission to fire a weapon like that?

So take the launcher but leave the warhead? That doesn't sound too smart. Either way he's not allowed to do that and Britannian guards will kill on sight if he did.

sLum

2008-08-11, 19:24

You don't give a bomb of that caliber to a grunt. (Yes, I'm repeating morbosfist)

Why's that? Care to explain? All he needs to do is shoot it like a bullet.

Orga777

2008-08-11, 19:24

If Suzaku unloads the gun but takes the gun with him, and leaves the bomb. What are they going to do? :heh: And what soldier would go on a suicide mission to fire a weapon like that?

So now you want him to unload the gun. Make up your mind... Can he even be able to do that? The only switch there was for the thing was the fire button that we know of.

And what Soldier would go on a suicide mission with that weapon? One that will do anything for Britannian glory? Seriously, a lot of Britannian soldiers would give up their lives to win a battle. Namely all of them.

Sports72Xtrm

2008-08-11, 19:25

Covered this. You don't trust grunts to such an endeavor.

One Knightmare for Nina to pilot then. Also he could be sending Kanon who is not a grunt.

Var

2008-08-11, 19:27

So take the launcher but leave the warhead? That doesn't sound too smart. Either way he's not allowed to do that and Britannian guards will kill on sight if he did.

If the bomb can't work without the gun, it sounds perfectly viable.

So now you want him to unload the gun. Make up your mind... Can he even be able to do that? The only switch there was for the thing was the fire button that we know of.

And what Soldier would go on a suicide mission with that weapon? One that will do anything for Britannian glory? Seriously, a lot of Britannian soldiers would give up their lives to win a battle. Namely all of them.

How am I switching my mind? I'm just giving you other options, as I said, taking it out was never his only option. If there is a way to put the weapon in, there's likely a way to remove it, otherwise what happens if something goes wrong or they have to change something? Throw it away?

morbosfist

2008-08-11, 19:27

So take the launcher but leave the warhead? That doesn't sound too smart. Either way he's not allowed to do that and Britannian guards will kill on sight if he did.Kill the Knight of Seven? You're joking. They wouldn't touch him.

Why's that? Care to explain? All he needs to do is shoot it like a bullet.A bullet that could wipe out a city. No, you do not trust just anyone to such a task.

One Knightmare for Nina to pilot then. Also he could be sending Kanon who is not a grunt.Kanon isn't a Knightmare pilot and neither is Nina. Granted, she's willing, but I don't think they'd do such a roundabout thing in the middle of battle.

Stretch5920

2008-08-11, 19:27

Give it a rest will ya. Suzaku did what he thought was the best option, it backfired. If Gino wasn't a playful moron who never takes anything seriously Suzaku could have trusted him with it, but that guy would probably shoot it for fun.

sLum

2008-08-11, 19:27

One Knightmare for Nina to pilot then. Also he could be sending Kanon who is not a grunt.

Hey that makes sense.. how dare you?!

Orga777

2008-08-11, 19:30

If the bomb can't work without the gun, it sounds perfectly viable.

Why wouldn't it work without a gun?:eyebrow:
It was laoded onto a gun, but that doesn't mean that is the only way it can be fired or activated.

If there is a way to put the weapon in, there's likely a way to remove it, otherwise what happens if something goes wrong or they have to change something? Throw it away?

You got me there, but that doesn't mean Suzaku has the means to unload the weapon on his KMF.

Sports72Xtrm

2008-08-11, 19:32

Kill the Knight of Seven? You're joking. They wouldn't touch him.

A bullet that could wipe out a city. No, you do not trust just anyone to such a task.

Kanon isn't a Knightmare pilot and neither is Nina. Granted, she's willing, but I don't think they'd do such a roundabout thing in the middle of battle.

I thought you said Knight of Seven had no authority over Britanian royalty but this case is different right? Even if it's specific treason?:rolleyes: Kanon doesn't need to be a pilot, just supervise the pilot or be all the way back away from the battle since it is a long range weapon.

morbosfist

2008-08-11, 19:35

I thought you said Knight of Seven had no authority over Britanian royalty but this case is different right? Even if it's specific treason?:rolleyes: Kanon doesn't need to be a pilot, just supervise the pilot or be all the way back away from the battle since it is a long range weapon.How is it treason to remove a weapon? No, they would not kill Suzaku for dismounting the gun. Even Kanon notes that the use of the weapon was entirely a matter of Suzaku's pride, ergo they were screwed if he said no. If Kanon doesn't pilot it, they wouldn't trust the grunt.

DN24

2008-08-11, 19:36

The problem with all the drop the gun theories is that once he drop it,no one can make sure Nina or Schneizel has no other means to fire it ....You guys don't know what they can do and are just making excuses on how they wouldn't or couldn't do it....

Even Kanon notes that the use of the weapon was entirely a matter of Suzaku's pride, ergo they were screwed if he said no

Kanon was talking about piloting the Lancelot with the bomb...not firing the weapon..

Sports72Xtrm

2008-08-11, 19:38

How is it treason to remove a weapon? No, they would not kill Suzaku for dismounting the gun. Even Kanon notes that the use of the weapon was entirely a matter of Suzaku's pride, ergo they were screwed if he said no. If Kanon doesn't pilot it, they wouldn't trust the grunt.

I'm not sure if the Lancelot is Suzaku's property to do as he wishes. If doesn't want to pilot it you can't force him but he can't say that no one else is allowed to pilot the Lancelot. And even if it were he can't disable the bomb. That would be treason.

sLum

2008-08-11, 19:38

morbosfist

2008-08-11, 19:39

The only facts are that Suzaku took the burden, got his ass kicked when he figured Kallen wouldn't let him go, gave up, then Geass nuked Tokyo. The alternate scenarios will of course be speculation.

I'm not sure if the Lancelot is Suzaku's property to do as he wishes. If doesn't want to pilot it you can't force him but he can't say that no one else is allowed to pilot the Lancelot. And even if it were he can't disable the bomb. That would be treason.Each Knight of Rounds has a personal support team which maintains their personal mech. When he reached KoR status, that Knightmare became his. He would not be disabling the bomb, he'd be dropping it. It still wouldn't be treason.

Sports72Xtrm

2008-08-11, 19:42

The only facts are that Suzaku took the burden, got his ass kicked when he figured Kallen wouldn't let him go, gave up, then Geass nuked Tokyo. The alternate scenarios will of course be speculation.

Each Knight of Rounds has a personal support team which maintains their personal mech. When he reached KoR status, that Knightmare became his. He would not be disabling the bomb, he'd be dropping it. It still wouldn't be treason.

Ok what's to stop anybody else from picking it up? Now we're just going in circles.

sLum

2008-08-11, 19:43

The only facts are that Suzaku took the burden, got his ass kicked when he figured Kallen wouldn't let him go, gave up, then Geass nuked Tokyo. The alternate scenarios will of course be speculation.

Why is there any speculation? The bomb would have fired with or without Suzaku. He only took it because he had the will to not fire it (and he didn't Geass did). You see that smile on Schneizal's face when he fired the bomb? That pretty much tells us he would've commissioned a launch.

Rising Dragon

2008-08-11, 19:44

Ok what's to stop anybody else from picking it up? Now we're just going in circles.

Detonator's in Suzaku's Knightmare Frame, so someone else can only use it if the Avalon has the measures to detonate it.

hero147

2008-08-11, 19:46

Why is there any speculation? The bomb would have fired with or without Suzaku. He only took it because he had the will to not fire it (and he didn't Geass did). You see that smile on Schneizal's face when he fired the bomb? That pretty much tells us he would've commissioned a launch.

Schniezel is an idiot, he would kill his own people just to see his bomb successful. It was in the Britannia concentrated district, right at the government building. Poor Nunnally:upset:

What I would've done in Suzaku's position was not launch in the Lancelot, and when night falls, I would stuff it under Nina's bed, as a late birthday present.

morbosfist

2008-08-11, 19:46

Why is there any speculation? The bomb would have fired with or without Suzaku. He only took it because he had the will to not fire it (and he didn't Geass did). You see that smile on Schneizal's face when he fired the bomb? That pretty much tells us he would've commissioned a launch.Of course he would, he commissioned the bomb, but he had limited options in getting it launched. If Suzaku said no, he'd be sunk, at least for the immediate future.

Sports72Xtrm

2008-08-11, 19:46

Detonator's in Suzaku's Knightmare Frame, so someone else can only use it if the Avalon has the measures to detonate it.

Ok so this proves that the Lancelot is not his property to control.

DN24

2008-08-11, 19:48

Detonator's in Suzaku's Knightmare Frame, so someone else can only use it if the Avalon has the measures to detonate it

And are you sure they don't? No,you are not...so stop with that nonsense already..

Vakir

2008-08-11, 19:50

Schniezel is an idiot, he would kill his own people just to see his bomb successful. It was in the Britannia concentrated district, right at the government building. Poor Nunnally:upset:

Schneizel couldn't determine where it would be shot, but then he didn't look too disappointed, either.

Rising Dragon

2008-08-11, 19:50

And are you sure they don't? No,you are not...so stop with that nonsense already..

Well excuse the piss out of me, I never said I didn't believe they don't have that measure in place. Frankly, we don't know if they do or not, and frankly, I was only correcting the misconception that others can use it if Suzaku drops it.

morbosfist

2008-08-11, 19:50

Ok so this proves that the Lancelot is not his property to control.No, it proves they mounted it in the Lancelot with his consent.

DN24

2008-08-11, 19:55

I was only correcting the misconception that others can use it if Suzaku drops it.

How's that a misconception? That was a 50-50 chance there,one way to make sure no one have access to it was to bring it with him....

No, it proves they mounted it in the Lancelot with his consent.

If so,why would Kanon bother mention it was Suzaku pride whether he choose to pilot it or not?Don't you think it was somehow related to the bomb

Aquaman OS

2008-08-11, 20:01

Haven't we been over this? The only reason he took it was because he knew in advance he wasn't going to use it. Removing it left the chance that someone else like Gino, Anya, or Luciano(dear god if he had it) would take it instead and Suzaku couldn't be sure they wouldn't give in to Nina's constant ranting to shoot it or just do it anyway.

Dropping it anywhere would lead to either someone else picking it up and shooting it, getting hit or crashed on and set off accidentally, or someone from the Black Knights finding it and having Rakshata reverse engineer it which would A. get Suzaku in DEEP trouble for allowing such an important weapon to fall into the hands of the enemy. and B. put alot more people in danger because Lelouch in his butthurt tantrum mode probably wouldn't think twice about nuking Britannia to oblivion.

The only option he thought he could take was to keep it with him at all times so nobody else could even think about shooting it. If worse came to worse he could always retreat with it. The only problem was that he didn't plan on Guren being there (as this was the first Knightmare in the whole show that Lancelot was helpless against and couldn't get away from) and he didn't count on Lelouch demanding his death instead of just trying to get him out of the way.

Either way though even if Geass didn't kick in Lancelot exploding probably would have set it off anyway. But nothing could really be done about that and had that happened the blast radius would be slightly different but Suzaku Kallen Lelouch and probably Nunnally would have died anyway.

Really the only way to guarantee it never going off would be for Nina to have never made it in the first place.

Var

2008-08-11, 20:01

If so,why would Kanon bother mention it was Suzaku pride whether he choose to pilot it or not?Don't you think it was somehow related to the bomb

If Suzaku refuses, then the Lancelot, which is his and all equipment on it, which becomes his the moment its put on the machine, cannot leave the Avalon.

morbosfist

2008-08-11, 20:01

If so,why would Kanon bother mention it was Suzaku pride whether he choose to pilot it or not?Don't you think it was somehow related to the bombIt was related to Suzaku using the bomb. Ultimately, it was Suzaku's decision to use it.

Sports72Xtrm

2008-08-11, 20:03

If Suzaku refuses, then the Lancelot, which is his and all equipment on it, which becomes his the moment its put on the machine, cannot leave the Avalon.

And yet Nina was still climbing into it to pilot it before Suzaku intervened. I didn't see Lloyd or Cecile stoping her. No, it is not his personal property.

Rising Dragon

2008-08-11, 20:04

How's that a misconception? That was a 50-50 chance there,one way to make sure no one have access to it was to bring it with him....

If so,why would Kanon bother mention it was Suzaku pride whether he choose to pilot it or not?Don't you think it was somehow related to the bomb

If there is no method for the Avalon to remote detonate the FLEIJA weapon, and someone took the gun from Suzaku, they would not be able to fire it, as Suzaku had the detonator in his Knightmare Frame, meaning they can't fire it on their own. That was the correction I made. Please freaking note the big fucking IF I placed in there before trying to correct me this time.

And yes, if Suzaku did not pilot the Lancelot Conquista, Suzaku could not fire FLEIJA. But remember that the FLEIJA was only placed there with Suzaku's consent and at Nina's insistence--nothing, and I repeat, nothing is stopping them from mounting the FLEIJA on ANOTHER Knightmare Frame whose pilot IS willing to fire it. It is simply easier and quicker to take the Lancelot to do this--problem being, Nina doesn't know how to get it started, as I doubt Lloyd, Cecile, or Suzaku would tell her.

Orga777

2008-08-11, 20:04

I think everyone should read what Aquaman OS just posted. because he is right on the money.

morbosfist

2008-08-11, 20:05

And yet Nina was still climbing into it to pilot it before Suzaku intervened. I didn't see Lloyd or Cecile stoping her. No, it is not his personal property.Yes, it is. Nina's just a crazy bitch and had reached a point where they couldn't stop her except through reasoning.

Orga777

2008-08-11, 20:06

Yes, it is. Nina's just a crazy bitch and had reached a point where they couldn't stop her except through reasoning.

Or shooting her in the face....<.<'

Rising Dragon

2008-08-11, 20:10

I think everyone should read what Aquaman OS just posted. because he is right on the money.

I just did, and he is right on the money. My posts, however, were based on the whole "If Suzaku dropped it and someone took it," and how it wouldn't be possible for them to use it if Avalon couldn't detonate it remotely. And DN24 decided to set me off.

morbosfist

2008-08-11, 20:10

Haven't we been over this? The only reason he took it was because he knew in advance he wasn't going to use it. Removing it left the chance that someone else like Gino, Anya, or Luciano(dear god if he had it) would take it instead and Suzaku couldn't be sure they wouldn't give in to Nina's constant ranting to shoot it or just do it anyway.Yes, we know why he did it. Doesn't mean it was the only option. He had the detonator.

Dropping it anywhere would lead to either someone else picking it up and shooting it, getting hit or crashed on and set off accidentally, or someone from the Black Knights finding it and having Rakshata reverse engineer it which would A. get Suzaku in DEEP trouble for allowing such an important weapon to fall into the hands of the enemy. and B. put alot more people in danger because Lelouch in his butthurt tantrum mode probably wouldn't think twice about nuking Britannia to oblivion.If he left it on the Avalon, all that except for the start becomes moot.

The only option he thought he could take was to keep it with him at all times so nobody else could even think about shooting it. If worse came to worse he could always retreat with it. The only problem was that he didn't plan on Guren being there (as this was the first Knightmare in the whole show that Lancelot was helpless against and couldn't get away from) and he didn't count on Lelouch demanding his death instead of just trying to get him out of the way.Lelouch only demanded his death when Kallen was going to oblige anyway.

Either way though even if Geass didn't kick in Lancelot exploding probably would have set it off anyway. But nothing could really be done about that and had that happened the blast radius would be slightly different but Suzaku Kallen Lelouch and probably Nunnally would have died anyway.If the people in Code Geass are anywhere near as cautious as real-world nuke designers, they would be sure such a weapon would only go off when meant to.

Really the only way to guarantee it never going off would be for Nina to have never made it in the first place.Of course, but that's falling back a bit far.

demon_god04

2008-08-11, 20:12

Yes, it is. Nina's just a crazy bitch and had reached a point where they couldn't stop her except through reasoning.

You think Nina can be reached through reasoning now? Frankly I thought like that until recently when she was screaming like a crazy dog non stop for Suzaku to use a strategic weapon inside of a populated city where her friends live. I don't think anything sort of Euphie coming back from the dead and slaping her across the face for desecrating her name would get through to her. Or as Orga said with a bullet in the face either one.

morbosfist

2008-08-11, 20:13

You think Nina can be reached through reasoning now? Frankly I thought like that until recently when she was screaming like a crazy dog non stop for Suzaku to use a strategic weapon inside of a populated city where her friends live. I don't think anything sort of Euphie coming back from the dead and slaping her across the face for desecrating her name would get through to her quit frankly. Or as Orga said with a bullet in the face either one.Well, my point was more a general one. Of course she couldn't really be reasoned with except by Suzaku.

Orga777

2008-08-11, 20:13

If he left it on the Avalon, all that except for the start becomes moot.

Assuming Nina and Schneizel don't have another way to detonate the bomb. Which would be stupid on their part if they don't.

Aquaman OS

2008-08-11, 20:14

It's not like Suzaku had the only detonator in the world. They could have gotten another one and set it up for another pilot. There should be more than one Freija.

Rising Dragon

2008-08-11, 20:14

Do you think that Nina honestly believed Euphemia wanted the Japanese dead? It would partially explain her insane desire to kill them in Euphemia's name, and Britannia's majority believes she did it of her own volition.

Either way, she's nuttier than squirrel poo, and Euphy's resurrection and explanation would be the only thing to stop her madness.

Var

2008-08-11, 20:15

Assuming Nina and Schneizel don't have another way to detonate the bomb. Which would be stupid on their part if they don't.

No... its not unusual for a bomb of that magnitude to have one and only one detonator. They can have multiple shut down methods, but usually one and only one detonator.

demon_god04

2008-08-11, 20:16

Well, my point was more a general one. Of course she couldn't really be reasoned with except by Suzaku.

I doubt even Suzaku would get through to her now, she only backed off when Suzaku was willing to fly out with it as she wanted him to.

Sports72Xtrm

2008-08-11, 20:16

Yeah but Shneizel really wanted a Japanese to fire it I guess. Shneizel would probably detonate it somewhere in the Britanian area and blame the black knights for hijacking it and making them look like terrorist.

Orga777

2008-08-11, 20:17

No... its not unusual for a bomb of that magnitude to have one and only one detonator. They can have multiple shut down methods, but usually one and only one detonator.

That doesn't really make sense here though. They would still need a fail-safe detonator in case the one Suzaku has malfunctions or doesn't work or in case someone they gave it to turns on them. I don't see WHY they wouldn't have another one. I think assuming they don't may be stretching it a little too much personally.

morbosfist

2008-08-11, 20:17

Assuming Nina and Schneizel don't have another way to detonate the bomb. Which would be stupid on their part if they don't.There's also the fact that they have to get another Knightmare to hold it, a pilot they can trust to fire it, etc. Back to the speculation. At best, it takes time to get a replacement Knightmare, load in the backup detonator, adjust the nuke's arming frequency to the new detonator, and finally allow Nina to pilot it to Zero.

Var

2008-08-11, 20:18

That doesn't really make sense here though. They would still need a fail-safe detonator in case the one Suzaku has malfunctions or doesn't work. I don't see WHY they wouldn't have another one. I think assuming they don't may be stretching it a little too much personally.

Possible, but they tested FREIJA, meaning they tested the detonator. There are positives and negatives to having more than one detonator. The same is true for having only one. But, as I said, 'big bad weapons' tend to be tested and given just one method of detonation with mutliple methods of deactivation.

Orga777

2008-08-11, 20:19

There's also the fact that they have to get another Knightmare to hold it, a pilot they can trust to fire it, etc. Back to the speculation. At best, it takes time to get a replacement Knightmare, load in the backup detonator, adjust the nuke's arming frequency to the new detonator, and finally allow Nina to pilot it to Zero.

Again, WHY would firing it out of a gun be the ONLY way for it to be activated? There are tons of different ways to shoot off a bomb. They could easily fire it out of one of the Avalon's cannons at the enemy forces or just add it to a different weapon all together and have it fired from their and detonated from the Avalon. Not really that hard to fathom.

Sports72Xtrm

2008-08-11, 20:21

Possible, but they tested FREIJA, meaning they tested the detonator. There are positives and negatives to having more than one detonator. The same is true for having only one. But, as I said, 'big bad weapons' tend to be tested and given just one method of detonation with mutliple methods of deactivation.

Still Shniezel isn't the type to not have a contingency plan.

Orga777

2008-08-11, 20:22

Still Shniezel isn't the type to not have a contingency plan.

You beat me to it.

Yeah, Schneizel is like Lelouch so why wouldn't he have a back-up plan just in case of the worst case scenario?

Var

2008-08-11, 20:22

Still Shniezel isn't the type to not have a contingency plan.

Then there's no reason for Kanon to say that the entire weapon was riding on Suzaku's pride. If they had other methods of detonation, they could have just blown up Suzaku.

morbosfist

2008-08-11, 20:23

Again, WHY would firing it out of a gun be the ONLY way for it to be activated? There are tons of different ways to shoot off a bomb. They could easily fire it out of one of the Avalon's cannons at the enemy forces or just add it to a different weapon all together and have it fired from their and detonated from the Avalon. Not really that hard to fathom.It was built to fit in that specific rifle. It could not be fired from a different cannon.

Aquaman OS

2008-08-11, 20:23

Orga777

2008-08-11, 20:24

Then there's no reason for Kanon to say that the entire weapon was riding on Suzaku's pride. If they had other methods of detonation, they could have just blown up Suzaku.

Except I don't think they wanted to do that...

Var

2008-08-11, 20:24

Yes but this is the first WMD ever in Geass universe. They might not have thought that far ahead.

On another note, do we even know if that switch thing was specifically the Fleia detonator? It could just be a weapon firing switch for all we know. We never really get an indepth look at the cockpits.

Its for the FREIJA, that switchs has never been inside the Lancelot before, you get cockpit views of it a few times in the past.

Except I don't think they wanted to do that...

I remember, last season, Schneizel shooting the Gawain's cannons at Suzaku. I don't see why he would have tested it back then, and somehow have a change of heart this time around and not test his new toy.

morbosfist

2008-08-11, 20:25

On another note, do we even know if that switch thing was specifically the Fleia detonator? It could just be a weapon firing switch for all we know. We never really get an indepth look at the cockpits.The blue button was the launch switch. I suspect the actual detonation was simply on a timer to allow the pilot to run like hell.

Sports72Xtrm

2008-08-11, 20:26

Then there's no reason for Kanon to say that the entire weapon was riding on Suzaku's pride. If they had other methods of detonation, they could have just blown up Suzaku.

Well I suppose if that were the case, Shniezel wants Suzaku to seem like he would be committing treason for not going out there with bomb and letting them get invaded. He'd probably lose his Knight of Rounds status if Shniezel were to lose Japan, Shniezel will retreat and come back with force with more bombs and there will be nothing left of Japan.

Var

2008-08-11, 20:27

Well I suppose if that were the case, it would seem like Suzaku would be committing treason for not going out there with bomb and letting them get invaded. He'd probably lose his Knight of Rounds status if Shniezel were to lose Japan, Shniezel will retreat and come back with force with more bombs and there will be nothing left of Japan.

Thats fine, but that's complete speculation.

Orga777

2008-08-11, 20:28

The blue button was the launch switch. I suspect the actual detonation was simply on a timer to allow the pilot to run like hell.

Wait, if that is the case, it may just have a timed detonation after it is fired anyway so if it is fired from something else, why the hell would it matter?

Also, you said that it was fitted for that one gun right? Do we really have proof that it CAN'T be fired from something else? I don't see why it can't. It is just like every other type of bomb/missile. There are more than one method to fire said weapon.

Sports72Xtrm

2008-08-11, 20:30

Thats fine, but that's complete speculation.

Everything we all said is nothing but speculation since they're all what ifs.

Rising Dragon

2008-08-11, 20:30

The blue button was the launch switch. I suspect the actual detonation was simply on a timer to allow the pilot to run like hell.

Either way, without that new console, someone else isn't firing that gun after taking it from Suzaku during battle.

DN24

2008-08-11, 20:30

Thats fine, but that's complete speculation.

Nothing else could fire the bomb or no one has another detonator are also speculation with no proof..

morbosfist

2008-08-11, 20:31

Wait, if that is the case, it may just have a timed detonation after it is fired anyway so if it is fired from something else, why the hell would it matter?

Also, you said that it was fitted for that one gun right? Do we really have proof that it CAN'T be fired from something else? I don't see why it can't. It is just like every other type of bomb/missile. There are more than one method to fire said weapon.It can't be fired from something else because it is a specifically designed nuclear equipped shell in a rifle designed to hold it. It won't go in some random missile launcher or a cannon designed to fire different bullets.

Var

2008-08-11, 20:31

Nothing else could fire the bomb or no one has another detonator are also speculation with no proof..

I never said they weren't, I was simply ending the conversation. His speculation is also far beyond the battle, in that time a lot more can happen, increasing the 'speculation'.

Discerptor

2008-08-11, 20:32

If Suzaku unloads the gun but takes the gun with him, and leaves the bomb. What are they going to do? :heh: And what soldier would go on a suicide mission to fire a weapon like that?

Thinking Suzaku would even be able to unload the gun without firing it is incredibly wild speculation and assumption at best.

Aquaman OS

2008-08-11, 20:32

We're all making huge assumptions here. Nothing we're suggesting can really be proven anyway.

kaefer_zwei

2008-08-11, 20:32

suzaku was clearly neutral all the way... and clearly had no intention of using the weapon... he had given a warning time and again... he stood strong with his belief of not using fleija even to the last moment... he didnt want to use it even if he died... i guess that gotta have some credit..

Var

2008-08-11, 20:33

Thinking Suzaku would even be able to unload the gun without firing it is presumptuous at best.

A gun that can be loaded, can also be unloaded otherwise its simply retarded. I said it before, what happens if the weapon malfunctions or something has to be fixed? Do they just throw it away?

Orga777

2008-08-11, 20:33

It can't be fired from something else because it is a specifically designed nuclear equipped shell in a rifle designed to hold it. It won't go in some random missile launcher or a cannon designed to fire different bullets.

It is? We really don't know that. The GUN can be made to fire the thing, but that doesn't mean that the weapon can't be fired from something else. There are numerous ways to fire off rockets, bombs, missiles, etc. There are more than one method. It was put on Lancelot mostly because of its speed and abilities (the attack would be more precise). That doesn't mean they can't blast the thing off from the Avalon.

morbosfist

2008-08-11, 20:35

Yes, Suzaku gets his props for not falling back on it. However, he only gave one warning, then got all put-off when he figured the battle was his fault.

It is? We really don't know that. The GUN can be made to fire the thing, but that doesn't mean that the weapon can't be fired from something else. There are numerous ways to fire off rockets, bombs, missiles, etc. There are more than one method. It was put on Lancelot mostly because of its speed and abilities (the attack would be more precise). That doesn't mean they can't blast the thing off from the Avalon.Missiles and bullets can be fired from different things because they are designed to be fired from different things. This nuke was designed to be fired in one way.

Discerptor

2008-08-11, 20:37

A gun that can be loaded, can also be unloaded otherwise its simply retarded. I said it before, what happens if the weapon malfunctions or something has to be fixed? Do they just throw it away?

It was loaded by those other than Suzaku (i.e. Nina's engineers and Lloyd's team). There's no reason the KMF pilot himself has to be able to load or unload it. And seeing as this was a brand new experimental weapon, it's highly unlikely they took such convenience into consideration yet.

Orga777

2008-08-11, 20:39

Missiles and bullets can be fired from different things because they are designed to be fired from different things. This nuke was designed to be fired in one way.

Really now? So the test explosion was fired from said gun then? How come I don't buy that one bit? Sorry, you will need more than that.

Now if you will excuse me, it is almost time for me to watch Michael Phelps win another Gold Medal.:p

MonkeyDude

2008-08-11, 20:43

Haha its quite amusing to read what Suzaku supporters write to defend his actions. Even to go as far as to blind themselves to reason...:heh:

Let's use actual evidence shown in the episode instead of useless speculation. Evidence suggests that there is only one available FLEIJA warhead. FLEIJA is still a highly experimental weapon that has barely passed the testing stages. Mass production is out of the question given the relatively short amount of time between the testing phase and deployment in combat situations. The weapon itself was probably deployed just for the purpose of testing it in actual combat scenarios in densely populated areas (a striking similarity to real world events). If multiple warheads were present, then we would have seen them mounted on the other KOR units.

Next comes the possibility of a second detonator. While plausible, no evidence suggests that a second detonator exists. It would also be quite illogical to have a secondary detonator on a device such as the FLEIJA. The purpose of the detonator is to arm and probably set a timer for detonation of the bomb. If the purpose of the detonator is solely for arming the device, then a secondary detonator would be utterly useless, since it would still require Suzaku to launch the warhead. If it also sets a sort of timer for detonation, then that will also render a secondary detonator useless. There is also the possibility of causing an actual detonation, but how would Britannia justify a deliberate detonation of its own government office and the surrounding area? Good luck explaining why the Lancelot suddenly went boom:heh:

So barring speculation, we can conclude that there is only one available FLEIJA warhead and the only detonator was used to arm and activate a timer set at 'x' time to either detonate on impact or air-burst if the set time is reached.

I'll add that Suzaku was specifically chosen to carry the burden of the FLEIJA not because he is an eleven, but so they can place the blame on him if something goes horribly wrong (I would think the government office of the Area going bye bye counts as horribly wrong).:heh:

Sports72Xtrm

2008-08-11, 20:46

Discerptor

2008-08-11, 20:46

morbosfist

2008-08-11, 20:47

Really now? So the test explosion was fired from said gun then? How come I don't buy that one bit? Sorry, you will need more than that.Different bomb, different design. One was a test, one was weaponized.

Rising Dragon

2008-08-11, 20:49

Different bomb, different design. One was a test, one was weaponized.

Different bomb? Excuse me? It was the same damn kind of bomb!

Or do you somehow know that what they tested wasn't FLEIJA but something entirely different?

MonkeyDude

2008-08-11, 20:49

What does any of this have to do with the blame being Suzaku's? You can't even troll right. Go away.

Actually nothing, just saying that all the speculation being done by the Suzaku supporters are completely useless in light of evidence;)

Look at the context of the text before posting k?

Discerptor

2008-08-11, 20:51

Actually nothing, just saying that all the speculation being done by the Suzaku supporters are completely useless in light of evidence;)

Look at the context of the text before posting k?

I already debunked the speculation that started this pointless branch of thought, which was started by a non-Suzaku supporter. Your sad attempt to pin stuff on Suzaku supporters was unnecessary.

morbosfist

2008-08-11, 20:53

Different bomb? Excuse me? It was the same damn kind of bomb!

Or do you somehow know that what they tested wasn't FLEIJA but something entirely different?Not what I meant. What I meant that the test bomb wouldn't be meant to be launched. It'd just be some device in the middle of an empty test area set to be remote detonated. The weaponized one was housed in a container suitable for warfare.

MonkeyDude

2008-08-11, 20:56

I already debunked the speculation that started this pointless branch of thought, which was started by a non-Suzaku supporter. Your sad attempt to pin stuff on Suzaku supporters was unnecessary.

Meh took me awhile to write up my post. The thread already jumped by two pages by the time I finished. All I'm saying is that it is amusing to watch Suzaku supporters try to justify his actions, even going as far as to blind themselves to reason and speculate against proven evidence. This is a fun thread to follow!

Discerptor

2008-08-11, 20:59

Meh took me awhile to write up my post. The thread already jumped by two pages by the time I finished. All I'm saying is that it is amusing to watch Suzaku fanatics try to justify his actions, even going as far as to blind themselves to reason and speculate against proven evidence. This is a fun thread to follow!

They're nowhere near as bad as Lelouch fanatics, generally speaking, who are willing to blind themselves to reason, speculate against proven evidence and make things up to make Suzaku look bad. And seeing as your post was 95% speculation as well, I don't see you in a very good position either.

Sports72Xtrm

2008-08-11, 21:00

GuidoHunter_Toki

2008-08-11, 21:01

Meh took me awhile to write up my post. The thread already jumped by two pages by the time I finished. All I'm saying is that it is amusing to watch Suzaku supporters try to justify his actions, even going as far as to blind themselves to reason and speculate against proven evidence. This is a fun thread to follow!

The same thing can be said for Lelouch supporters and pretty much all the main character supporters. This show has some of the most blinded fanbase I've ever seen. In every thread half the time its some discussion about wether it Lelouchs or Suzakus fault or its some discussion about who Lelouch will end up with Kallen or C.C. and most of the time its very trivial arguments/evidence presented.

Var

2008-08-11, 21:02

They're nowhere near as bad as Lelouch supporters, generally speaking, who are willing to blind themselves to reason, speculate against proven evidence and make things up to make Suzaku look bad. And seeing as your post was 95% speculation as well, I don't see you in a very good position either.

Fanaticism is often mixed with actual fans. :heh:

Discerptor

2008-08-11, 21:03

Fanaticism is often mixed with actual fans. :heh:

I suppose this is true. I don't mind reasonable folk like you, after all. Replace "supporter" with "fanatic" in that post. >.>

animeboy12

2008-08-11, 21:20

I don't know about everyone else but I personally love both characters, but these last few episodes have made me lean toward Suzaku a little bit more.

Discerptor

2008-08-11, 21:24

I don't know about everyone else but I personally love both characters, but these last few episodes have made me lean toward Suzaku a little bit more.

I think I liked both, with a leaning toward Suzaku, before I read the things some Lelouch fanatics write in this forum. :P

Though right now, I'd say I'm still a Zero fan, even if not a Lelouch fan. <3

Witacume

2008-08-11, 21:27

I think I liked both, with a leaning toward Suzaku, before I read the things some Lelouch fanatics write in this forum. :P

Though right now, I'd say I'm still a Zero fan, even if not a Lelouch fan. <3

I am fan of both being idiots and plot does that count?
all kidding aside. I think the story has been pretty great.
Suzaku and Lelouch are both victims of curcumstances.
In the end I want a happy ending.
I hope both will see that they are both idiots or maybe both kill each other at the end.
thats kinda ok with me lol =X

Discerptor

2008-08-11, 21:28

King Lycan

2008-08-11, 21:30

I prefer if they both didn't die :heh:

GuidoHunter_Toki

2008-08-11, 21:31

I prefer if they both didn't die :heh:

Same here, but its looks doubtful to end well.

animeboy12

2008-08-11, 21:31

Oddly enough, I'm sort of in line with this, as I would have found it an acceptable ending to the series if Lelouch and Suzaku actually hit each other at the end of R1, with the sakuradite bomb killing everyone. XD

that's cold.
I want a happy ending for Suzaku and a bitter sweet ending for lulu

King Lycan

2008-08-11, 21:31

Yes.has anyone see the Lelouch thread yet ..comparing Lelouch to Madara O_o ?

Aquaman OS

2008-08-11, 21:34

They basically have one more shot to stop acting like idiots and get their act together before more people like Euphie and Nunnally die due to their stubborn butting of heads. If they don't then it won't end well, for either of them.

Discerptor

2008-08-11, 21:34

Suzaku will never get his happy ending because Euphy is dead.

And yes, Lycan, I saw that. I tried to end it quickly, but it somehow spun into Death Note comparisons after that. T_T

King Lycan

2008-08-11, 21:44

Well i prefer Suzaku then lelouch..and its odd because i usually like the cold heart-ed killers :heh: but i don't like Lelouch one bit ..

DarkLordOfkichiku

2008-08-11, 21:47

I am fan of both being idiots and plot does that count?
all kidding aside. I think the story has been pretty great.
Suzaku and Lelouch are both victims of curcumstances.
In the end I want a happy ending.
I hope both will see that they are both idiots or maybe both kill each other at the end.
thats kinda ok with me lol =X

Would sort of be okay with me as well... I mean, it's good being friends and everything, but good grief, one so tires of GS and other animes/stories where it's "The best friends becomes mortal enemies but forgive each others and teams up against the final boss", sorta. Would be sort of nice - if yet tragic - to see a story where they actually head for an ending where one of'em kills the other off or both dies, even. As things are going now this seems to be what the writters are heading for even.. <_<.

wingdarkness

2008-08-11, 22:11

Suzaku knows about the live Geass. He bitched about it not one episode ago. Then what does he do? He tries to let himself die again and it activates his Geass. Unless he's brain dead there's no excuse for forgetting about something so important.

You pi$$-partied all last week saying that his speech concerning his "Live On" geass was nothing more than disingenuous conjecture...You and others had mentioned how he should be glad Lulu gave him this "gift" cause he's nothing more than a suicidal loser (Ignoring the actual point which is the free will to decide or change his mind, or die for something he deems as worth)...And here in this episode he goes against Britannia's intended plan (which I'm sure you'll tuck his cool-points under the sock-drawer anyways for this), and he decides to NOT fire the WMD that would wipe out everyone (Obviously Schnizzle wants him to fire it because the politics of the situation is that a Japanese kills the Japanese--See if that bends your values?)...

As all with clear minds have already said, he would have inevitably had to use the "Live On" geass...Kallen's new machine was working the $hit out of him and he was gonna die...IN THE END (throw out the bull) he was gonna have TO LIVE...He's not a psychic like you want to be...He can't predict every scenario on the battlefield...He might have just pwned Zero and finished off the fight just like that, so please save the excuse about him trying to let himself die...This is the crux of the problem...The very fact that you wanted him to do something else other than his normal, impromptu-actions in battle speaks to the point about free will...He has no choice...He can't just leave the battle when he has the power and the position to make a difference and he just can't fight to the point of death because the geass will kick in...The acceptance of death is merely a sideshow to the lack of having a choice; of exhibiting true, free-will...

The fact of whether or not you just hate the character is what it is...Many people do, and hell Suzaku annoyed me much if not all of S1 and a couple parts of R2, but I started to like the scenes where he showed ownage in his fate and a true, if not flawed, sense of commitment to his side of the argument...At this point in the debate you are clearly losing IMO...You either fail to see any of this, or you like roasting marshmallows on a burning ship...Now you don't have to back-down from your offensive, but with each post the credibility is becoming about as non-existent as that bomb's blast area...Just admit most of this spawned out of hatred and I'll dig that...

morbosfist

2008-08-11, 22:19

You pi$$-partied all last week saying that his speech concerning his "Live On" geass was nothing more than disingenuous conjecture...You and others had mentioned how he should be glad Lulu gave him this "gift" cause he's nothing more than a suicidal loser (Ignoring the actual point which is the free will to decide or change his mind, or die for something he deems as worth)...And here in this episode he goes against Britannia's intended plan (which I'm sure you'll tuck his cool-points under the sock-drawer anyways for this), and he decides to NOT fire the WMD that would wipe out everyone (Obviously Schnizzle wants him to fire it because the politics of the situation is that a Japanese kills the Japanese--See if that bends your values?)...I don't remember saying he should be glad, I remember saying he should stop being such a whiner about it because he earned it by being stubborn. In either case, yes, he did not want to fire it. However, he forgot about a critical ailment and it was fired.

As all with clear minds have already said, he would have inevitably had to use the "Live On" geass...Kallen's new machine was working the $hit out of him and he was gonna die...IN THE END (throw out the bull) he was gonna have TO LIVE...He's not a psychic like you want to be...He can't predict every scenario on the battlefield...He might have just pwned Zero and finished off the fight just like that, so please save the excuse about him trying to let himself die...This is the crux of the problem...The very fact that you wanted him to do something else other than his normal, impromptu-actions in battle speaks to the point about free will...He has no choice...He can't just leave the battle when he has the power and the position to make a difference and he just can't fight to the point of death because the geass will kick in...The acceptance of death is merely a sideshow to the lack of having a choice; of exhibiting true, free-will...No, the acceptance of death is not a matter of lack of choice, because his Geass proved his life was not over at that instant. He saw his situation and more or less said, "fuck it, this is my punishment."

The fact of whether or not you just hate the character is what it is...Many people do, and hell Suzaku annoyed me much if not all of S1 and a couple parts of R2, but I started to like the scenes where he showed ownage in his fate and a true, if not flawed, sense of commitment to his side of the argument...At this point in the debate you are clearly losing IMO...You either fail to see any of this, or you like roasting marshmallows on a burning ship...Now you don't have to back-down from your offensive, but with each post the credibility is becoming about as non-existent as that bomb's blast area...Just admit most of this spawned out of hatred and I'll dig that...For someone who participates so little in the debate, much less in the same section of it, you're hardly in the position to claim an upper-hand.

Poorboy93

2008-08-11, 22:24

Suzaku was being a stupid athelete, not knowing that his Live On geass would activate thinking there was no way he will die on the battlefield so Im going to bring it and obey orders. He could have threw it away or destroyed it.

Sports72Xtrm

2008-08-11, 22:26

Well shit happens. It's an anime. No choice but to move on and make sure that he gets the Japanese a better life like he promised so that the casualties didn't die in vain.

orangejuicetang

2008-08-11, 22:43

Why've gone over why throwing it away might have been a bad idea. And really, how would you destroy the bomb? With out the bomb exploding in your face?

Aquaman OS

2008-08-11, 22:48

Well shit happens. It's an anime. No choice but to move on and make sure that he gets the Japanese a better life like he promised so that the casualties didn't die in vain.

That's more or less impossible now. The Japanese will no longer accept him as Governor. His KoO plan is now shot.

morbosfist

2008-08-11, 22:51

That's more or less impossible now. The Japanese will no longer accept him as Governor. His KoO plan is now shot.That depends on how many Japanese he killed. He hit the edge of the settlement over the government building so he probably killed a decent number, but he also vaped a fair portion of Britannians and the veritable symbol of their regime. Not that any of this matters to Suzaku. He doesn't care what people think. He'll just do what he wants as always.

wingdarkness

2008-08-11, 23:00

No, the acceptance of death is not a matter of lack of choice, because his Geass proved his life was not over at that instant. He saw his situation and more or less said, "fuck it, this is my punishment."

I'll give you credit, you just blew off my entire post in like a few sentences...Takes a certain kind of stubbornness to do that, but on to this actual point...What I have been trying to get you to realize for I don't know how long now, is that the acceptance of death doesn't have to be 10 seconds of dramatic slow-mo moments made for effect...The acceptance of death can happen in an instant...Lulu's command is as vague as it is curseful...So based on almost every geass he's shown in this series, the geassed subject will follow that command literally unless given specific guidelines otherwise...The second Suzaku feels like he's gonna die, he's gonna "Live On", it's as simple as that...Obviously if your an "emo suicide boy" it's gonna happen more often than not, but if he were using his mecha to stop a sword from cutting his cockpit and he felt like he was gonna actually die, his geass would kick in and we'd see the seed-mode $hit he did this episode...Doesn't matter if he's reserved to death for 1 sec, or 1 minute...The geass command has to be literal in-effect (Because every single geass command from Lulu in this show has been this way)...There was nothing natural about his movments after the geass kicked in, it was straight Kiramode in this b!tch...

Suzaku has no choice... (Unless he goes to an island an becomes a hermit Master Roshi) As I said in the content you quickly skimmed over...The dude has the power and position to make a difference, but he also is "restricted" by the geass effect on his free will (as in his true-intentions are restricted)...He basically can only fight good enuff to win, because any close match that puts him into a true deathgame will ultimatley trigger his geass and skew his values, or put him in a random win-lose situation where his geass will make the decision for him (Like this episode)...But I can't explain much better that this...You're just using your hate of Suzaku to blah, blah, blah, this point into reality...Although I'm doing most of the blah, blah, blah here it seems...

True Warrior

2008-08-11, 23:02

morbosfist

2008-08-11, 23:06

So your saying that Kallen acceptance of death in episode 6 was more suited than Suzaku's :rolleyes:Let's see: she couldn't fly and couldn't eject. Suzaku, albeit short an arm and a leg, still had flight and, as I have repeatedly stated, is well aware that he has a Geass that makes him do crazy shit if he tries to let himself die. So yes, her accepting her death is more appropriate than Suzaku, because she wasn't packing a nuke and possessed of a so-called "curse" that forces her to survive by any means.

True Warrior

2008-08-11, 23:10

Let's see: she couldn't fly and couldn't eject. Suzaku, albeit short an arm and a leg, still had flight and, as I have repeatedly stated, is well aware that he has a Geass that makes him do crazy shit if he tries to let himself die. So yes, her accepting her death is more appropriate than Suzaku, because she wasn't packing a nuke and possessed of a so-called "curse" that forces her to survive by any means.
Ah, it all makes sense now:rolleyes: I mean from your stand point you make it seem he shouldn't participate in any battles whatsoever because of it, I mean it's not like he has any CONTROL OVER IT, but have whatever works for you man.

Vakir

2008-08-11, 23:10

Let's see: she couldn't fly and couldn't eject. Suzaku, albeit short an arm and a leg, still had flight and, as I have repeatedly stated, is well aware that he has a Geass that makes him do crazy shit if he tries to let himself die. So yes, her accepting her death is more appropriate than Suzaku, because she wasn't packing a nuke and possessed of a so-called "curse" that forces her to survive by any means.

He'd still be in the same position since he'd never get away fast enough. And since the "live" geass isn't exclusive to him losing his will to live, the situation would play out the same way. They just did it the other way for the sake of drama.

The fact that you're digging this deep for something to complain about says something.

True Warrior

2008-08-11, 23:12

He'd still be in the same position since he'd never get away fast enough. And since the "live" geass isn't exclusive to him losing his will to live, the situation would play out the same way. They just did it the other way for the sake of drama.

The fact that you're digging this deep for something to complain about says something.
He does this with every topic, its funny seeing him try actually:heh:

Vakir

2008-08-11, 23:18

He does this with every topic, its funny seeing him try actually:heh:

I still want to know why he's doing it. It's one thing to dislike a character, it's another to deliberately try and LOOK for things to complain about and dance around or twist things for the sake of perpetuating the bullshit Scrappy flag for them.

morbosfist

2008-08-11, 23:18

I'll give you credit, you just blew off my entire post in like a few sentences...Takes a certain kind of stubbornness to do thatI don't always feel like matching word counts, and your posts boiled down to a specific point.

but on to this actual point...What I have been trying to get you to realize for I don't know how long now, is that the acceptance of death doesn't have to be 10 seconds of dramatic slow-mo moments made for effect...The acceptance of death can happen in an instant...Lulu's command is as vague as it is curseful...So based on almost every geass he's shown in this series, the geassed subject will follow that command literally unless given specific guidelines otherwise...The second Suzaku feels like he's gonna die, he's gonna "Live On", it's as simple as that...Obviously if your an "emo suicide boy" it's gonna happen more often than not, but if he were using his mecha to stop a sword from cutting his cockpit and he felt like he was gonna actually die, his geass would kick in and we'd see the seed-mode $hit he did this episode...Doesn't matter if he's reserved to death for 1 sec, or 1 minute...The geass command has to be literal in-effect (Because every single geass command from Lulu in this show has been this way)...There was nothing natural about his movments after the geass kicked in, it was straight Kiramode in this b!tch...His acceptance of death has to be more than just "I'm gonna die." He has to know it's going to happen, accept it, and more importantly not struggle against it. As the incident with the Chinese Federation shows, though it is a bit off the standard for his Geass, he can be well aware that his death is imminent and fight normally. Hell, he knew he was fucked the second his Hadron Blaster was cut off by Kallen, but he struggled anyway. Only when he decided that dying was his atonement and that he must accept it did his Geass compel him to live. He has to make a conscious and resolute choice to die.

Suzaku has no choice... (Unless he goes to an island an becomes a hermit Master Roshi) As I said in the content you quickly skimmed over...The dude has the power and position to make a difference, but he also is "restricted" by the geass effect on his free will (as in his true-intentions are restricted)...He basically can only fight good enuff to win, because any close match that puts him into a true deathgame will ultimatley trigger his geass and skew his values, or put him in a random win-lose situation where his geass will make the decision for him (Like this episode)...But I can't explain much better that this...You're just using your hate of Suzaku to blah, blah, blah, this point into reality...Although I'm doing most of the blah, blah, blah here it seems...I like to be brief. Sue me. Suzaku does not have the power to make a difference, at least not yet. All he can do is work his way up. But that's beside the point. His Geass does not restrict him. If anything it helps him, as it is the only thing keeping him on his path. All it does is keep him from dying. The only way it restricts him is in his ability to take suicide orders, which at this point he doesn't have to worry about.

Vakir

2008-08-11, 23:23

His acceptance of death has to be more than just "I'm gonna die." He has to know it's going to happen, accept it, and more importantly not struggle against it. As the incident with the Chinese Federation shows, though it is a bit off the standard for his Geass, he can be well aware that his death is imminent and fight normally. Hell, he knew he was fucked the second his Hadron Blaster was cut off by Kallen, but he struggled anyway. Only when he decided that dying was his atonement and that he must accept it did his Geass compel him to live. He has to make a conscious and resolute choice to die.

Nowhere has it generally been stated that he needs to accept he's going to die for it to trigger. Aware, obviously, because otherwise it wouldn't be obeying an order, but not accepting. We've only seen those situations occur, but haven't had the opportunity for others, and it's arguable if he'd die from the assassin or accepted it. The fact of the matter is, in the event he's going to die, we can infer the Geass triggers regardless. He can't run away from the Guren, it's too damn fast. So to talk about alternatives to it are irrelevant, because no matter what, that Fleija was getting fired.

True Warrior

2008-08-11, 23:26

All the bashers care about is that he fired the damn thing, they don't need an explanation on how it happened, it just did which gives them the fuel to make pointless arguments

morbosfist

2008-08-11, 23:28

Nowhere has it generally been stated that he needs to accept he's going to die for it to trigger. Aware, obviously, because otherwise it wouldn't be obeying an order, but not accepting. We've only seen those situations occur, but haven't had the opportunity for others. The fact of the matter is, in the event he's going to die, we can infer the Geass triggers regardless. He can't run away from the Guren, it's too damn fast. So to talk about alternatives to it are irrelevant, because no matter what, that Fleija was getting fired.In the absence of evidence to the contrary, we can only make a determination based on observable phenomenon. "The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence" isn't going to support your position.

And yes, he couldn't win, I've said this repeatedly. That's not the issue. The issue is that he wasn't going to die trying to escape his fate, he gave up and was going to let it happen. That's why his Geass activated. If a later episode shows his Geass activate for any other reason, I might be more inclined to let Suzaku off the hook for this, but in the absence of that he should have been more aware of his own ailments.

Vakir

2008-08-11, 23:33

In the absence of evidence to the contrary, we can only make a determination based on observable phenomenon. "The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence" isn't going to support your position.

But logically, the order "Live" is still an order even if you WANT to live. Accepting isn't necessary for it to trigger whatsoever, and there's nothing to actually indicate that. The Geass activated in this case only because it was the exact moment he would've otherwise died. You're pulling it out of your ass for the sake of spite for a fictional entity.

That said, see who DOESN'T accept their death when it's eminent: no one CAN'T, it's something that occurs in the final moments of your thoughts. If you're going to die, that moment hits you regardless of whether you're suicidal or not.

Your definition of how the Geass works implies that an order is something you always don't want to do.

And yes, he couldn't win, I've said this repeatedly. That's not the issue. The issue is that he wasn't going to die trying to escape his fate, he gave up and was going to let it happen. That's why his Geass activated. If a later episode shows his Geass activate for any other reason, I might be more inclined to let Suzaku off the hook for this, but in the absence of that he should have been more aware of his own ailments.

See above.

ApostleOfGod

2008-08-11, 23:35

His Live Geass activates regardless, and if my memory serves me correct, it came up in that episode with C.C. falling into the pile of Tomatoes and stuff @ Ashford. Someone took a shot @ Suzaku's life, and he successfully defended himself with simply a warning from one of his fellow Britannian soldiers. Then he had a little bit of thought dialogue which basically said, "Why did you cast the Live Geass on me Lulu?"

My question is though, what would happen if Suzaku is cornered by 20 guys, butt naked, tied up, and about to get shot? Would he become a beast to fulfill his order? Rip off his bindings and roundhouse kick all 20 at once, or disable their ability to shoot and run or something? o_O ;)

Sports72Xtrm

2008-08-11, 23:39

morbosfist

2008-08-11, 23:42

But logically, the order "Live" is still an order even if you WANT to live. Accepting isn't necessary for it to trigger whatsoever, and there's nothing to actually indicate that. The Geass activated in this case only because it was the exact moment he would've otherwise died. You're pulling it out of your ass for the sake of spite for a fictional entity.No, I'm saying it because it's a fact. You are the one trying to simplify it to suit your view of how his Geass should work. Though I dislike long posts, I'll try to explain why your reasoning is flawed.

Suzaku's order was for him to live on. With certain exceptions, every single moment of a person's life follows this command, because unless they resolve to die, by default they are trying to live. Therefore, the command is being obeyed and doesn't kick in. Even went sent on suicide missions, Suzaku is still trying to live because he believes he can win or stop the fighting.

Your next post ties into this, so we'll go to it for a bit.
That said, see who DOESN'T accept their death when it's eminent: no one CAN'T, it's something that occurs in the final moments of your life. If you're going to die, that moment hits you regardless of whether you're suicidal or not.Look at Luciano. This fuck would not accept his death to the very end, and he was being melted. Yes, you can deny your death even when it's staring you in the face. Humans have an amazing capacity for self-deception.

Suzaku is particularly prone to believing his life is over, because he wants to be punished for his past sins. This makes him prone to giving up when he realizes he's fucked or just wants to die (Eleven soldier). His Geass activates as it does because of this. He does not fight his death, he accepts it, so at that moment he is no longer trying to live and the command takes hold.

Lol idk but knowing morbofist I have a feeling he'd somehow twist it into having both potential awnsers wrong and yell at Suzaku for not dieing.Eh, maybe later, this'll do for now.

Diedrupo

2008-08-11, 23:48

And yes, he couldn't win, I've said this repeatedly. That's not the issue. The issue is that he wasn't going to die trying to escape his fate, he gave up and was going to let it happen. That's why his Geass activated. If a later episode shows his Geass activate for any other reason, I might be more inclined to let Suzaku off the hook for this, but in the absence of that he should have been more aware of his own ailments.

It is absolutely wrong to assume that Suzaku 1) knew what Freija would do and 2) always be constantly aware of what his geass would be capable of. Do you think Suzaku is constantly plotting and thinking a few steps ahead like Lelouch is? No, he thinks like a normal person, and even knowing about his geass, he does not know when it will activate. Lest you forget, people have no memories of their geass activations.

Then again, you are always pulling at straws to put everything against Suzaku, even when faced with mountains of evidence to the contrary. Blaming Suzaku for what happened, and not the geass, is completely contrary to what the writers want you to feel.

morbosfist

2008-08-11, 23:52

It is absolutely wrong to assume that Suzaku 1) knew what Freija would doNina: "All matter within its area of effect will be obliterated."

Is Suzaku deaf? He knew what it did. Hell, he gave Lelouch the yield of the bomb.

2) always be constantly aware of what his geass would be capable of. Do you think Suzaku is constantly plotting and thinking a few steps ahead like Lelouch is? No, he thinks like a normal person, and even knowing about his geass, he does not know when it will activate. Lest you forget, people have no memories of their geass activations.He was complaining about it to Lelouch during their meeting, which could not have been more than hours previous to this battle. A day a most. He has repeatedly expressed knowledge of exactly what the command is, and even knows why it activates. At best it slipped his mind, at worst he forgot completely at a critical point.

Then again, you are always pulling at straws to put everything against Suzaku, even when faced with mountains of evidence to the contrary. Blaming Suzaku for what happened, and not the geass, is completely contrary to what the writers want you to feel.Why thank you, I try. :heh:

Sports72Xtrm

2008-08-11, 23:53

Morbofist is the Suzaku troll. He needs to feed on the hate in order to sustain himself. It really doesn't matter if he was wrong to do it or not if he even had a choice. It happened and he's going to have to endure it. The only thing left is to continue following his ideals and provide some results. And hopefully Lelouch will the same.

blitz1/2

2008-08-11, 23:54

So your saying that Kallen acceptance of death in episode 6 was more suited than Suzaku's :rolleyes:

Yea, but it lacked THE DEATH.

Suzaku realised he would die, what's wrong with accepting it when it is inevitable?

Vakir

2008-08-11, 23:57

No, I'm saying it because it's a fact. You are the one trying to simplify it to suit your view of how his Geass should work. Though I dislike long posts, I'll try to explain why your reasoning is flawed.

Suzaku's order was for him to live on. With certain exceptions, every single moment of a person's life follows this command, because unless they resolve to die, by default they are trying to live. Therefore, the command is being obeyed and doesn't kick in. Even went sent on suicide missions, Suzaku is still trying to live because he believes he can win or stop the fighting.

But in every single moment of a person's life, they aren't staring death in the face. It doesn't work under the same context. If you planned to have lunch at 12:30 and I Geassed you to have lunch at 12:30, you'd still have lunch at 12:30 under the direction of the Geass. The same thing works for Suzaku.

The "Live" Geass is going to activate BECAUSE he needs to live and is about to die. The only conceivable way to do that was Fleija. So yes, even if it did take his acceptance of death, there was an alternate means of survival, hence the exact same thing would've happened. By the way, Nina's yelling of his survival out being the Fleija could've easily triggered this as well.

This is how Geass has ALWAYS worked. It's not about willful contradiction to the order, the order will kick in regardless in the proper timing.

Your next post ties into this, so we'll go to it for a bit.
Look at Luciano. This fuck would not accept his death to the very end, and he was being melted. Yes, you can deny your death even when it's staring you in the face. Humans have an amazing capacity for self-deception.

Stereotypical villainous "HOW COULD I HAVE LOOOOST~!" end speech doesn't account for someone's internal thoughts. I'll concede not EVERYONE accepts death before they die because some don't have the reaction time to do so, but eventually even the most arrogant sociopathic people need to face the reality of finality.

Suzaku is particularly prone to believing his life is over, because he wants to be punished for his past sins. This makes him prone to giving up when he realizes he's fucked or just wants to die (Eleven soldier). His Geass activates as it does because of this. He does not fight his death, he accepts it, so at that moment he is no longer trying to live and the command takes hold.

But even if he wasn't suicidal, it's not exactly an uncommon procedure to face the reality of death. You're telling me now that it's his fault if the Geass DOES work like this that he didn't go out like some unnatural killing machine that knows no end? Lots of people would accept death in the same situation, because there wasn't any other alternative. It's more uncommon to NOT with that hax-hand heading your way.

And that's if it even works like that, and it doesn't given the precedence that every other Geass command has shown. I'm arguing off of that, not arguing off of a lack of evidence to the contrary.

morbosfist

2008-08-12, 00:09

But in every single moment of person's life, they aren't staring death in the face. It doesn't work under the same context. If you planned to have lunch at 12:30 and I Geassed you to have lunch at 12:30, you'd still have lunch at 12:30 under the direction of the Geass. The same thing works for Suzaku.Comparing a matter of life and death to time doesn't quite work. The Geass command would activate at 12:30 to make the person have lunch, or before if they tried to do it earlier. Once lunch was eaten, the condition would be filled. Since Suzaku's Geass isn't active constantly, this analogy doesn't work.

The "Live" Geass is going to activate BECAUSE he needs to live and is about to die. The only conceivable way to do that was Fleija. So yes, even if it did take his acceptance of death, there was an alternate means of survival, hence the exact same thing would've happened. By the way, Nina's yelling of his survival out being the Fleija could've easily triggered this as well.Nina's yelling probably influenced him, but the point comes back to him willfully giving up.

This is how Geass has ALWAYS worked. It's not about willful contradiction to the order, the order will kick in regardless in the proper timing.Geass commands are conditional. They're not constantly activated unless the condition requires it.

Stereotypical villainous "HOW COULD I HAVE LOOOOST~!" end speech doesn't account for someone's internal thoughts. I'll concede not EVERYONE accepts death before they die because some don't have the reaction time to do so, but eventually even the most arrogant sociopathic people need to face the reality of finality.This is a mostly situational thing. Luciano was completely unprepared for his quick death, so he denied it. Suzaku got some context and a small amount of time to think, so he had time to accept it. he didn't have to, but he's prone to.

But even if he wasn't suicidal, it's not exactly an uncommon procedure to face the reality of death. You're telling me now that it's his fault if the Geass DOES work like this that he didn't go out like some unnatural killing machine that knows no end?I'm only saying it's his fault for forgetting such an important detail in light of what he was carrying on his back.

wingdarkness

2008-08-12, 00:11

You gettin' killed here morbofist...

Hey despite the brain aneurysm you have almost given me a couple of times, I respect your right to defend your side even if you dig a grave in the process...I've been in your position before and instincts tell you to headbang your way out of it...I get that, but you must see how this makes you look...You just gonna ignore the rules of Lulu's geass command until you hit that pitchfork aren't you? The evidence that's absent in your mind is the slew of geass commands by Lulu that show clearly the literal nature of his ability...

Suzaku does not have the power to make a difference at least not yet. All he can do is work his way up...
His Geass does not restrict him. If anything it helps him, as it is the only thing keeping him on his path.

The power to make a difference = The power to impact the war heavily just on his mecha skills is what I was saying if you go back and read, but I get it your being attacked at every angle right now...

Moving on...So his path was to blow up Japan which totally goes against his expressed intention in this ep?? That's the help his geass gives him? :uhoh: Jesus Skywalker dude..., It restricts his intentions...Please read my posts...Nevermind I gotta go to sleep soon, but again I respect your right to argue this point down to hell if you have to...Unfortunatley Suzaku won't be joining you anytime soon since his a$$ is "LIVING ON" :D...

Blaming Suzaku for what happened, and not the geass, is completely contrary to what the writers want you to feel.

It's sad you even have to mention this when it's so BEYOND implied...

sLum

2008-08-12, 00:12

It's really sad, the whole episode Suzaku was saying how he wanted to use FLEYA as a bluff and a detterent and we have these imbecile anti-suzaku folks saying he wanted to do it or it was his fault? Then why the hell did it show the flashback from Kanejima if he wanted to do it? Really all the evidence points towards how Lelouch ever since the "Live Geass" day didn't give a rats ass about Suzaku's feelings or what he had to say. Well maybe next time Lelouch will listen to one of Schneizal's cronies when they say they have a WMD in their KMF.

demon_god04

2008-08-12, 00:13

Yea, but it lacked THE DEATH.

Suzaku realised he would die, what's wrong with accepting it when it is inevitable?

Not that I am pining the blame on Suzaku or anything but the geass activates when he consciously accepts it not just to the danger. If that was not the case then it would have activated sooner in the fight with Kallen as he was in a huge danger of dieing and even when Kallen's arm came down on him the geass did not activate until he accepted his death as being his atonement. Had he not consigned himself to death and tried to find a way out rather then accept his death then the geass may not have activated.

But either way I blame Nina for shoving the bomb in Suzaku's face because of her Euphie obsession.

morbosfist

2008-08-12, 00:15

You just gonna ignore the rules of Lulu's geass command until you hit that pitchfork aren't you? The evidence that's absent in your mind is the slew of geass commands by Lulu that show clearly the literal nature of his ability...I really don't want to write a wall of text analyzing every single command, how they interact, etc. It would be quite tedious.

The power to make a difference = The power to impact the war heavily just on his mecha skills is what I was saying if you go back and read, but I get it your being attacked at every angle right now...So this is what you meant. I'll agree.

Moving on...So his path was to blow up Japan which totally goes against his expressed intention in this ep?? That's the help his geass gives him? :uhoh: Jesus Skywalker dude..., It restricts his intentions...Please read my posts...Nevermind I gotta go to sleep soon, but again I respect your right to argue this point down to hell if you have to...Unfortunatley Suzaku won't be joining you anytime soon since his a$$ is "LIVING ON" :D...It does not restrict his intentions except in giving up his life. It certainly can go against them as you point out, but that isn't restriction.

sLum

2008-08-12, 00:17

Not that I am pining the blame on Suzaku or anything but the geass activates when he consciously accepts it not just to the danger. If that was not the case then it would have activated sooner in the fight with Kallen as he was in a huge danger of dieing and even when Kallen's arm came down on him the geass did not activate until he accepted his death as being his atonement. Had he not consigned himself to death and tried to find a way out rather then accept his death then the geass may not have activated.

But either way I blame Nina for shoving the bomb in Suzaku's face because of her Euphie obsession.

The Guren was shown to be mind bogglingly faster than all the other KMFs, he wouldn't have escaped and the bomb would've been used anyway.

wingdarkness

2008-08-12, 00:17

I really don't want to write a wall of text analyzing every single command, how they interact, etc. It would be quite tedious.

Wow did Brett Favre just throw that pass...

morbosfist

2008-08-12, 00:18

Wow did Brett Favre just throw that pass...I don't get the reference. I'll say this: if you assess each activation, you can only come up with one conclusion.

The Guren was shown to be mind bogglingly faster than all the other KMFs, he wouldn't have escaped and the bomb would've been used anyway.Only if he gave up. If she had fried him at long range he wouldn't have done a thing.

Sports72Xtrm

2008-08-12, 00:22

Lol I'd like to see anyone in Suzaku's situation and see if they'd be able to not give up the will to live.

sLum

2008-08-12, 00:22

I don't get the reference. I'll say this: if you assess each activation, you can only come up with one conclusion.

Only if he gave up. If she had fried him at long range he wouldn't have done a thing.

WHAT? You're telling me his "live geass" wouldn't activate because of a long range attack? Sorry you have lost all credibility in this argument.

morbosfist

2008-08-12, 00:24

WHAT? You're telling me his "live geass" wouldn't activate because of a long range attack? Sorry you have lost all credibility in this argument.No, I'm saying that if she had hit him with a long range attack, he wouldn't have been able to launch it. It assumes he couldn't dodge. He was able to dodge the short-range attack and didn't, which is why it activated.

Micante

2008-08-12, 00:24

I don't get the reference. I'll say this: if you assess each activation, you can only come up with one conclusion.

Only if he gave up. If she had fried him at long range he wouldn't have done a thing.

Yes... because we all know that the Avalon's Hadron Cannon from when the order was first put on him was totally a melee attack.

wingdarkness

2008-08-12, 00:24

I don't get the reference.
@morbofist - LOL you're lucky you edited your quote I was gonna get you with that one!

Basically you passed on explaining your point because I suspect you can't back it up...In any event I'm out for today...I was suppose to do alot of $hit before I went to bed and I got caught up with your gravediggin once again...I'm sure I'll be back for more...

morbosfist

2008-08-12, 00:28

Yes... because we all know that the Avalon's Hadron Cannon from when the order was first put on him was totally a melee attack.Clarified in the post above yours.

sLum

2008-08-12, 00:29

Clarified in the post above yours.

No you didn't.

blitz1/2

2008-08-12, 00:29

This is too fun to read at night.

Micante

2008-08-12, 00:31

No, I'm saying that if she had hit him with a long range attack, he wouldn't have been able to launch it. It assumes he couldn't dodge. He was able to dodge the short-range attack and didn't, which is why it activated.

Wait... this part really doesn't make sense for me. What didn't?

morbosfist

2008-08-12, 00:33

No you didn't.Sigh, fine. If she hit him with the attack, his mech would be vaped. No bomb going off, since the electronics would be fried. If he saw the attack coming and chose not to dodge, his Geass would activate and it would be fired. The close range attack takes time to hit, so he had time to choose not to dodge. The long range attack is much faster, so if she fired it he would either have to dodge of his own will or just get hit.

Wait... this part really doesn't make sense for me. What didn't?Suzaku didn't dodge when he could have.

sLum

2008-08-12, 00:36

Sigh, fine. If she hit him with the attack, his mech would be vaped. No bomb going off, since the electronics would be fried. If he saw the attack coming and chose not to dodge, his Geass would activate and it would be fired. The close range attack takes time to hit, so he had time to choose not to dodge. The long range attack is much faster, so if she fired it he would either have to dodge of his own will or just get hit.

Dude just give up. You've lost this argument so badly.

Micante

2008-08-12, 00:36

Suzaku didn't dodge when he could have.

What exactly prevents him from not dodging a long range attack when he could have, then?

morbosfist

2008-08-12, 00:37

Dude just give up. You've lost this argument so badly.Maybe when I feel like sleeping.

demon_god04

2008-08-12, 00:38

The Guren was shown to be mind bogglingly faster than all the other KMFs, he wouldn't have escaped and the bomb would've been used anyway.

The point is not whether he would have escaped or not but rather that he gave up and resigned himself to his fate and that is what activated his geass rather then looming danger.

Micante

2008-08-12, 00:40

The point is not whether he would have escaped or not but rather that he gave up and resigned himself to his fate and that is what activated his geass rather then looming danger.

What could he have done? Waited until the Gurren Ripped off his flightpack until he was actually defenseless? Sooner or later, Gurren would have been able to go for the complete kill and he would have fired FLEIA.

Sports72Xtrm

2008-08-12, 00:40

The point is not whether he would have escaped or not but rather that he gave up and resigned himself to his fate and that is what activated his geass rather then looming danger.

So it was his will's fault. He should really have been exercising that will muscle? What if that's just the way he is?

morbosfist

2008-08-12, 00:42

What exactly prevents him from not dodging a long range attack when he could have, then?I've sort of lost track with all the posting, but I'll try. The long-range attack is almost instant hit. So assuming Kallen were to use it, he wouldn't have the time to think about letting it hit him. He would either manage to dodge or get struck.

Micante

2008-08-12, 00:46

I've sort of lost track with all the posting, but I'll try. The long-range attack is almost instant hit. So assuming Kallen were to use it, he wouldn't have the time to think about letting it hit him. He would either manage to dodge or get struck.

Actually, I've always thought melee attacks generally hit faster than long range attacks. Considering the fact that Gurren has always specialized in melee, I doubt its long range attacks would be faster.

Suzaku managed to the bullets of an automated machine gun. Gurren can turn into a beam and wipe out all of the Valkyrie Squad at once. What kind of long range attack could possibly be faster than that?

Alright, assuming that a long-range attack was fast enough to hit him. That would make everything Kallen's fault for trying to go melee, wouldn't it?

Vakir

2008-08-12, 00:48

Comparing a matter of life and death to time doesn't quite work. The Geass command would activate at 12:30 to make the person have lunch, or before if they tried to do it earlier. Once lunch was eaten, the condition would be filled. Since Suzaku's Geass isn't active constantly, this analogy doesn't work.

The analogy works because it demonstrates choice. Let's say you WANTED to eat at 12:30 but an emergency meeting came up so you couldn't. But you really wanted to. Then the Geass is placed on you to make you eat at 12:30. It has nothing to do with whether you wanted to or not: Geass is Geass. Just because you wanted to but decided not to doesn't change it made you do it anyway.

Geass is always constant. Just because his eyes aren't glowing red doesn't mean it isn't there. It's still ingrained in his coding, pun unintended.

The order is "live," not "carry on the will to live." Losing the will to live doesn't mean he's going to die necessarily. Plenty of suicidal people lose that will but fail to kill themselves successfully. Losing the will to live doesn't active a command to live because it isn't technically a danger to your life in general. Losing the will to live followed by a knife to your jugular is a different story. That's why it has nothing to do with his will, it has everything to do with the situation he's in.

Unless the translation is "carry on the will to live," which it isn't, there's no reason to take your interpretation. Someone's will isn't someone's existence. He's technically alive, so it doesn't activate it. When he's about to not be alive anymore, it takes effect.

Geass commands are conditional. They're not constantly activated unless the condition requires it.

Dying is the condition here. Not WANTING to die or accepting death: dying. "Live." The absence of living is dying. "Live" command activates because there is a means of living: Fleija.

Q E fucking D.

This is a mostly situational thing. Luciano was completely unprepared for his quick death, so he denied it. Suzaku got some context and a small amount of time to think, so he had time to accept it. he didn't have to, but he's prone to.

He didn't have to, but 95% of anyone would. Dying's a funny thing, see. You can't ask anyone what their thoughts were before it happened to them because they AREN'T AROUND. One would suspect that not everyone is Rambo, ergo not everyone is going to go out with fireworks. Some people need to be at peace, some that aren't suicidal even choose to accept their deaths long before their bell tolls.

I'm only saying it's his fault for forgetting such an important detail in light of what he was carrying on his back.

We already covered why he carried it on his back. It was a burden he had to bear to make sure no one else would use it, and he made a mistake in thinking he could use it as a bargain in a deterrent form of warfare.

Rest assured had he not taken it, the collateral would've been all the same if not worse. To not actually utilize it would be treason. You can argue we don't know for sure how the Britannian command would react, but Schneizel's too smart for that shit and he wouldn't take it: he'd make them use it, or someone else would. Suzaku carried it because he had the will to not fire and held it until the end, and that will was tragically stolen from him.

morbosfist

2008-08-12, 00:49

Actually, I've always thought melee attacks generally hit faster than long range attacks. Considering the fact that Gurren has always specialized in melee, I doubt its long range attacks would be faster.

Suzaku managed to the bullets of an automated machine gun. Gurren can turn into a beam and wipe out all of the Valkyrie Squad at once. What kind of long range attack could possibly be faster than that?

Alright, assuming that a long-range attack was fast enough to hit him. That would make everything Kallen's fault for trying to go melee, wouldn't it?That machine gun bit was ridiculous. They must have been smoking something during that episode. As for Kallen, indirectly, but yes. Lelouch indirectly too for giving the command and egging her on. Also Nina for making the nuke and the good prince for encouraging her.

demon_god04

2008-08-12, 00:50

What could he have done? Waited until the Gurren Ripped off his flightpack until he was actually defenseless? Sooner or later, Gurren would have been able to go for the complete kill and he would have fired FLEIA.

As I have said the gurren was already going for the kill, but the geass did not activate until Suzaku consigned himself to his death as his atonement and basically given up. That is the key he gave up and geass took over. Had he tried to find a way out tried to make a run for it or something without giving up then the geass may not have been activated.

Micante

2008-08-12, 00:52

Sports72Xtrm

2008-08-12, 00:52

Vakir

2008-08-12, 00:55

As I have said the gurren was already going for the kill, but the geass did not activate until Suzaku consigned himself to his death as his atonement and basically given up. That is the key he gave up and geass took over. Had he tried to find a way out tried to make a run for it or something without giving up then the geass may not have been activated.

IT'S CALLED DRAMATIC EFFECT. Are we going to apply logic to why the colors suddenly were their inverse and time slowed down? No. It's dramatic effect, for god's sake.

Live =/= Will to Live.

He was going to die, so he used the only means he could to live because the command is to LIVE.

It is SUCH A BASIC COMMAND. It's the EASIEST command you could give someone. I'm surprised you people know how to breathe, because apparently you don't know what LIVING is.

I sleep now. And I'm doing it because my body requires it, not because of my driving will to keep my eyes closed and my thoughts settled. Just making sure you all comprehend that concept.

morbosfist

2008-08-12, 01:03

The analogy works because it demonstrates choice. Let's say you WANTED to eat at 12:30 but an emergency meeting came up so you couldn't. But you really wanted to. Then the Geass is placed on you to make you eat at 12:30. It has nothing to do with whether you wanted to or not: Geass is Geass. Just because you wanted to but decided not to doesn't change it made you do it anyway.In your example, the man would have to go to the meeting, therefore contradicting the command. Though again, this analogy doesn't work. It's comparing a specific command to a general one which demonstratively don't work in the same fashion.

Geass is always constant. Just because his eyes aren't glowing red doesn't mean it isn't there. It's still ingrained in his coding, pun unintended.Geass is dormant unless needed, but I suspect we're saying the same thing now and it isn't changing anything about the command.

The order is "live," not "carry on the will to live." Losing the will to live doesn't mean he's going to die necessarily. Plenty of suicidal people lose that will but fail to kill themselves successfully. Losing the will to live doesn't active a command to live because it isn't technically a danger to your life in general. Losing the will to live followed by a knife to your jugular is a different story. That's why it has nothing to do with his will, it has everything to do with the situation he's in.

Unless the translation is "carry on the will to live," which it isn't, there's no reason to take your interpretation. Someone's will isn't someone's existence. He's technically alive, so it doesn't activate it. When he's about to not be alive anymore, it takes effect.

Dying is the condition here. Not WANTING to die or accepting death: dying. "Live." The absence of living is dying. "Live" command activates because there is a means of living: Fleija.I'll agree that the situation is important, but the willful acceptance of death is just as important. Let's go back to the beginning, when he first receives it. Lelouch gives the command and right off the bat he bails. It didn't take the rain of Hadron to get him going, just the fact that he was going to let it hit him. It takes more than the situation. It takes the acceptance of the fact. Suzaku knew he couldn't win as soon as his Hadron Blaster got cut off, but he continued to fight. Only when he was short an arm and a leg while Kallen was about to fry him did he finally accept his death, which triggered the command. You can focus on the wording, but the fact is that every situation shows him wanting to die.

He didn't have to, but 95% of anyone would. Dying's a funny thing, see. You can't ask anyone what their thoughts were before it happened to them because they AREN'T AROUND. One would suspect that not everyone is Rambo, ergo not everyone is going to go out with fireworks. Some people need to be at peace, some that aren't suicidal even choose to accept their deaths long before their bell tolls.Well, that's the good thing about fictional characters, we get to hear their thoughts.

We already covered why he carried it on his back. It was a burden he had to bear to make sure no one else would use it, and he made a mistake in thinking he could use it as a bargain in a deterrent warfare.

Rest assured had he not taken it, the collateral would've been all the same if not worse. To not actually utilize it would be treason. You can argue we don't know for sure how the Britannian command would react, but Schneizel's too smart for that shit and he wouldn't take it: he'd make them use it, or someone else would. Suzaku carried it because he had the will to not fire and held it until the end, and that will was tragically stolen from him.I can't disagree with this, except for the treason part and "had." he always has the choice, he just chose the obvious one. Only Nina, who has no command authority, was yelling at him. Using the bomb was his choice, from an order standpoint.

Airi

2008-08-12, 05:14

kaefer_zwei

2008-08-12, 06:22

what do you think suzaku is thinking?
the guilt will have placed a heavy burden shoulder... at the end of the day... he was still the one that pulled the trigger... geass or no geass
his pain and suffering will have compounded and doubled...
killing his father...
betraying his people...
failing to protect euphie...
betraying his friend...
failing to protect nunally...
killing nunally...
what can he think of himself... so great was he.. so little he could do to save and protect the ones he loved...
past all his suffering... will he be able to find light in the darkness.

bladeofdarkness

2008-08-12, 07:51

after this ep
i think he will have snap completely
the living hell thing would be in full effect
after all if this ep proved one thing is that even his own will isnt his own to deceide
this ep proved that once more he is nothing more then a puppet on a string
and nothing he feels about it cant change it (to his knowlege)

truly he is a tragic character
infinitly more so if you go back and watch season 1 again
compere ep 1 suzaku with what he is today
truly tragic (and not really of his own making)

Diedrupo

2008-08-12, 10:01

demon_god04

2008-08-12, 10:32

You make it seem like geass is a choice which it isn't. It would take a person with great amount of will power in that situation.

Despite only quoteing Sports72xtrm I am also replying to Vakir and Airi.

We have seen several instances of Suzaku's geass activating (ignoring the very first time with the hadron cannon on the island) There was the time with Euphemia in season one when he was basically dictating his will to her when when he was surrounded by those chinese frog KMFs. It activated when he was just surrounded and not under fire and after he resigned himself to his death and told Euphie what to say to his friends and to thanks Schneizel. Second time I recall was that soldier charging him with a knife he saw him charging him but Suzaku stayed motionless for a few instances being shocked by the words of the assassin and geass took over. Third time is with the Gurren in this episode when he saw the hand coming down and though that he should die and that it is his atonement and the minuite he thought that not before, the geass activated. Regardless of whether it was a dramatic effect or a slow down to emphasize the moment, the geass activated the moment he consciously gave in and consigned himself to death rather then the danger of death as was consistent with the other times. If it only triggered at the moment an external force puts him in the danger of death then it would not have triggered until those chinese KMFs have lowered their gun arms and started shooting rather then after he make his will to Euphie or it would have triggered when the Assassin started going at him with the Knife or basically a good number of times in battle so far.

orangejuicetang

2008-08-12, 10:43

demon_god04

2008-08-12, 10:49

Basically, the way I see it, if Suzuku ever even thinks "Holy shit, I'm gonna die", the geass would kick in and take control until he was out of danger. Now during the battle, the Guren was basically unstoppable and was tearing the Lancealot apart. Are you saying that it was unreasonable for him to think "Fuck, I'm going to die here and there's really nothing I can do about it." Even though he knows about the "live on" geass, in the spur of the moment when there is somebody completely dominating you, the thought that "I'm gonna die" is going to come up whether you want it to or not, unless you have some really optimistic personality.

When did I say that it was unreasonable to think that he was going to die. I was merely contesting the point that his geass activates solely on his life being in danger. As I have presented in my post above I believe that the major factor is not so much as saying oh god I am going to die but that he is consigning himself to the fate without fighting against it in some way that activates his geass. I mean in the Gurren fight he also mentioned that the machine potential is too different and that he can't win. I am sure that that is an oh my god I might die moment but his geass did not trigger.

Blue_Mercy

2008-08-12, 10:57

blitz1/2

2008-08-12, 11:11

Yet I don't feel sorry for him at all.

well because you are a Lulu/Kallen fan. You are too busy worshipping them to even pay attention to Suzaku. And besides, you would hate him anyways because he stands in their way.

Witacume

2008-08-12, 11:13

well because you are a Lulu/Kallen fan. You are too busy worshipping them to even pay attention to Suzaku. And besides, you would hate him anyways because he stands in their way.

actually he likes CC too. Hey there nothing different from Crazy Suzaku fans not feeling sorry for Lulu. Just a matter of Choice.

Kaze

2008-08-12, 11:13

well because you are a Lulu/Kallen fan. You are too busy worshipping them to even pay attention to Suzaku. And besides, you would hate him anyways because he stands in their way.

Nicely said, people need to see it from Suzaku's p.o.v from time to time.

Var

2008-08-12, 11:15

well because you are a Lulu/Kallen fan. You are too busy worshipping them to even pay attention to Suzaku. And besides, you would hate him anyways because he stands in their way.

That is by far the dumbest argument I've ever heard. They expressed an opinion, not try and defile the obviously godlike image of Suzaku that you have. If they had actually said 'I don't feel sorry for him cause Suzaku eats massive men tesitcles!' then you'd have a point. Otherwise, its just pretencious nonsense.

musouka

2008-08-12, 11:29

When did I say that it was unreasonable to think that he was going to die. I was merely contesting the point that his geass activates solely on his life being in danger.

I think it's pretty simple, guys. The geass activates when Suzaku thinks his life is in danger. The geass is attached to him, not an outside party, so it's not as though there's a camera watching him and assessing exactly how much danger he might be in at any given opportunity--it's a matter of his perception.

demon_god04

2008-08-12, 11:38

I think it's pretty simple, guys. The geass activates when Suzaku thinks his life is in danger. The geass is attached to him, not an outside party, so it's not as though there's a camera watching him and assessing exactly how much danger he might be in at any given opportunity--it's a matter of his perception.

If it was as simple as that then it would have activated when he acknowledged that he could not when against the new Gurren when it was tearing apart the Lancelot. Fact is it didn't trigger until he had his inner monologue saying he will accept his death as his atonement. Which I pointed out in the rest of the post you quoted but left out, as well as the previous one if you bothered reading the rest.

Sports72Xtrm

2008-08-12, 11:38

musouka

2008-08-12, 11:40

If it was as simple as that then it would have activated when he acknowledged that he could not when against the new Gurren when it was tearing apart the Lancelot. Fact is it didn't trigger until he had his inner monologue saying he will accept his death as his atonement. Which I pointed out in the rest of the post you quoted but left out, as well as the previous one if you bothered reading the rest.

Just trying to save space.

"Can't win" =/= "I'm going to die right now"

Var

2008-08-12, 11:40

I agree that anyone being a Kalulu fan or whatever has no basis on this argument. But I really don't know what you are trying to argue about Suzaku? That he could have prevented any deaths? I think that even you know that ini war, the lives of many are way beyond his control.

That had nothing to do with my argument. Personally, before, I was simply talking about there being more than one option. I'm not blaming Suzaku for anything, (I blame everyone a little) just saying that there were other options available.

Sports72Xtrm

2008-08-12, 11:40

If it was as simple as that then it would have activated when he acknowledged that he could not when against the new Gurren when it was tearing apart the Lancelot. Fact is it didn't trigger until he had his inner monologue saying he will accept his death as his atonement. Which I pointed out in the rest of the post you quoted but left out, as well as the previous one if you bothered reading the rest.

So by your logic it was Euphie's fault that she wanted to massacre the Japanese. If only she would have willed herself not to hate Japanese, she could have saved all the Japanese?

Sports72Xtrm

2008-08-12, 11:42

That had nothing to do with my argument. Personally, before, I was simply talking about there being more than one option. I'm not blaming Suzaku for anything, (I blame everyone a little) just saying that there were other options available.

Fair enough. But under the cicumstances, I felt he did what was best at the time.

Var

2008-08-12, 11:43

Fair enough. But under the cicumstances, I felt he did what was best at the time.

On the other hand, I did not, which is why we disagree. :heh:

attobyte

2008-08-12, 11:46

So by your logic it was Euphie's fault that she wanted to massacre the Japanese. If only she would have willed herself not to hate Japanese, she could have saved all the Japanese?

Well Yuffie did overcame geass when she tried not to think about Suzaku as japanese. What I'm trying to say is maybe a real smart person may twist his mind to the point of tricking Lelouch's geass order but I don't believe Suzaku is smart enough for it

Sports72Xtrm

2008-08-12, 11:48

On the other hand, I did not, which is why we disagree. :heh:

But he has goals and wants to implement change. He can't do this unless he takes some form of action. You can't ask him to sit major battles out because that's not an option. No more than Suzaku can ask Lelouch to never become Zero again. I suppose the only way to know who has the better way is the results the produce in which who can actually make a better world.

Sports72Xtrm

2008-08-12, 11:50

Well Yuffie did overcame geass when she tried not to think about Suzaku as japanese. What I'm trying to say is maybe a real smart person may twist his mind to the point of tricking Lelouch's geass order but I don't believe Suzaku is smart enough for it

Well then it's a difference in ability then. If he's not smart enough or doesn't have enough will then it's out of his control.

blitz1/2

2008-08-12, 11:51

That is by far the dumbest argument I've ever heard. They expressed an opinion, not try and defile the obviously godlike image of Suzaku that you have. If they had actually said 'I don't feel sorry for him cause Suzaku eats massive men tesitcles!' then you'd have a point. Otherwise, its just pretencious nonsense.

Who said that I have a god-image of him? I respect Suzaku, defend him from mindless bashing, I disagree with his methods (season 1), I was a Lulu fanboy for season 1 until I came to this thread and changed my opinion of Suzaku because I only look at the surface, I didn't look underneath his character, he pilots a mech, so that's a bonus point for me.

And looking at this thread, why couldn't I have an opinion that Kallen/Lulu fanboys expressing their dislike of Suzaku. Read through this thread (all the pages), I discovered at least 9 posters who just signed up to animesuki to bash Suzaku rather than contribute to the discussion. Why do Suzaku fans hate Lulu, well because Lulu did a great deal of pain to Suzaku, who can never move beyond Euphie.

Who said that I completely disliked Lelouch in R2 either. Even though I was smiling everytime he lost. I pitied him in episode 17 because he was willing to put aside his pride at least once to pursue forgiveness. (I hate proud characters) so at least he is slightly better in my opinion.

Also, many fans insist that Suzaku is always biased with Lulu hence causing more bashing, however for Lulu, he is now biased for Suzaku AND nobody finds anything wrong with that. So it is completely one-sided.

demon_god04

2008-08-12, 11:52

Just trying to save space.

"Can't win" =/= "I'm going to die right now"

He was in clear danger of his life and as he said he did not stand a chance. He already knew he will not win against her and she was fighting to kill him. and also as I already said before even when Kallen's claw was coming down on him the geass did not trigger until he accepted his death for atonement in his monologue.

So by your logic it was Euphie's fault that she wanted to massacre the Japanese. If only she would have willed herself not to hate Japanese, she could have saved all the Japanese?

Okay that is just ridiculous, do you understand what I typed at all?

Euphie's geass was to kill all Japanese. her will to kill them had nothing to do with it as was shown she just killed any Japanese she came across. Suzaku as was shown in all the occasions I recall his geass activating the major factor is his will, or lack there of, to live. The conditions presented with both of them were different.

orangejuicetang

2008-08-12, 11:54

When did I say that it was unreasonable to think that he was going to die. I was merely contesting the point that his geass activates solely on his life being in danger.

My post back there wasn't a reply to your posts. I was simply stating me own thoughts on the matter of his geass.

Well Yuffie did overcame geass when she tried not to think about Suzaku as japanese. What I'm trying to say is maybe a real smart person may twist his mind to the point of tricking Lelouch's geass order but I don't believe Suzaku is smart enough for it

I think it'd be a bit difficult to trick the geass. Basically, you'd need it to be a conditional type geass like Suzuku's instead of a command type geass like the numerous people Lelouch has told to "die". Because once the command type geass is given, you lose control of your actions and thoughts and just carry out the command. Basically, you don't think because the geass thinks for you. Now to trick the conditional type geass would be difficult. First you would need to know what the condition is, which in Suzuku's case is to "live on". Basically, in order to trick it, you'd need to believe to the very core of your soul that you wouldn't die from said action. Like if Suzuku could somehow convince himself that jumping off a scyscraper would not kill him, he could jump off the skyscraper even though it would kill him. Basically, he'd have to commit sucide without thinking or trying to commit sucide. This is just one example of what it would be like to trick Lelouch's geass.

Sports72Xtrm

2008-08-12, 11:56

He was in clear danger of his life and as he said he did not stand a chance. He already knew he will not win against her and she was fighting to kill him. and also as I already said before even when Kallen's claw was coming down on him the geass did not trigger until he accepted his death for atonement in his monologue.

Okay that is just ridiculous, do you understand what I typed at all?

Euphie's geass was to kill all Japanese. her will to kill them had nothing to do with it as was shown she just killed any Japanese she came across. Suzaku as was shown in all the occasions I recall his geass activating the major factor is his will, or lack there of, to live. The conditions presented with both of them were different.

Well one can argue that it didn't trigger until Nina said that Freya would save his life. Thus his will had nothing to do with it rather it was if his if his mind registered any possible options for him to live.

musouka

2008-08-12, 11:59

He was in clear danger of his life and as he said he did not stand a chance. He already knew he will not win against her and she was fighting to kill him. and also as I already said before even when Kallen's claw was coming down on him the geass did not trigger until he accepted his death for atonement in his monologue.

You are trying to split a hair so slender that all you're doing is cutting your fingers instead.

Look, it doesn't matter if he "accepts death" or not--the point is him thinking he's going to die. He could be screaming "I DON'T WANT TO DIEEE" at the top of his lungs and the geass would kick in because the condition of "host thinks his life is in mortal danger" has been met. The geass is "LIVE" not "don't kill yourself".

Var

2008-08-12, 12:09

Who said that I have a god-image of him? I respect Suzaku, defend him from mindless bashing, I disagree with his methods (season 1), I was a Lulu fanboy for season 1 until I came to this thread and changed my opinion of Suzaku because I only look at the surface, I didn't look underneath his character, he pilots a mech, so that's a bonus point for me.

And looking at this thread, why couldn't I have an opinion that Kallen/Lulu fanboys expressing their dislike of Suzaku. Read through this thread (all the pages), I discovered at least 9 posters who just signed up to animesuki to bash Suzaku rather than contribute to the discussion. Why do Suzaku fans hate Lulu, well because Lulu did a great deal of pain to Suzaku, who can never move beyond Euphie.

Who said that I completely disliked Lelouch in R2 either. Even though I was smiling everytime he lost. I pitied him in episode 17 because he was willing to put aside his pride at least once to pursue forgiveness. (I hate proud characters) so at least he is slightly better in my opinion.

Also, many fans insist that Suzaku is always biased with Lulu hence causing more bashing, however for Lulu, he is now biased for Suzaku AND nobody finds anything wrong with that. So it is completely one-sided.

I, personally, don't see any of the so called senseless bashing in a quote that surmounts to "I cannot feel pity for this character". What bashing is there in that sentence? It is simply an objective opinion about a person's own feelings towards the character. They did not attack him, they did not try to say thing XYZ was wrong, they simply said, "I do not feel sorry for him".

hero147

2008-08-12, 12:12

You are trying to split a hair so slender that all you're doing is cutting your fingers instead.

Look, it doesn't matter if he "accepts death" or not--the point is him thinking he's going to die. He could be screaming "I DON'T WANT TO DIEEE" at the top of his lungs and the geass would kick in because the condition of "host thinks his life is in mortal danger" has been met. The geass is "LIVE" not "don't kill yourself".

If he said "I dont want to diee" in essence he would be trying to escape the situation he is in, he is metaphorically "living on" . The geass only activates when Suzaku wants to choose death over life, to atone for his sins. The geass chooses its path for Suzaku. A geass can't complete what its user can't do, shown when Lelouch questioned Cornelia about his mother's situation.

Sports72Xtrm

2008-08-12, 12:16

If he said "I dont want to diee" in essence he would be trying to escape the situation he is in, he is metaphorically "living on" . The geass only activates when Suzaku wants to choose death over life, to atone for his sins. The geass chooses its path for Suzaku. A geass can't complete what its user can't do, shown when Lelouch questioned Cornelia about his mother's situation.

Saying it and doing it are two different things. If he has no means of doing it than how is he suppose to do it even if he wanted to. It wasn't until he was given an option with Freya did geass kick in.

demon_god04

2008-08-12, 12:22

Well one can argue that it didn't trigger until Nina said that Freya would save his life. Thus his will had nothing to do with it rather it was if his if his mind registered any possible options for him to live.

Well perhaps that had Nina had not said that then he may have taken another measure to save his life when the geass triggered. Frankly though I think that Nina was just being a raving lunatic that she is. I mean Suzaku actually fired it at Kallen imagine if it hit or she used the radiation wave to block then he would have been at close to ground zero. Pretty counter survival if you ask me. :heh:

You are trying to split a hair so slender that all you're doing is cutting your fingers instead.

Look, it doesn't matter if he "accepts death" or not--the point is him thinking he's going to die. He could be screaming "I DON'T WANT TO DIEEE" at the top of his lungs and the geass would kick in because the condition of "host thinks his life is in mortal danger" has been met. The geass is "LIVE" not "don't kill yourself".

I have already stated my stance and supported it with evidence of what the show has shown us and rather then refuting the same points again and again, if you disagree then perhaps use some examples from the show to prove that I am spliting a hair so slender that all I am doing is cutting my fingers.

hero147

2008-08-12, 12:23

Saying it and doing it are two different things. If he has no means of doing it than how is he suppose to do it even if he wanted to. It wasn't until he was given an option with Freya did geass kick in.

He wasn't that desperate when Nina was shouting, he believed he could still fight. When given two choices, life or death, whenever Suzaku chooses death, Geass kicks in. Geass isn't seed mode....It can only do whatever the user is capable of doing.

King Lycan

2008-08-12, 12:25

If he said "I dont want to diee" in essence he would be trying to escape the situation he is in, he is metaphorically "living on" . The geass only activates when Suzaku wants to choose death over life, to atone for his sins. The geass chooses its path for Suzaku. A geass can't complete what its user can't do, shown when Lelouch questioned Cornelia about his mother's situation.

Even if he was to say he didn't want to die out loud deep down in his heart he knows he was/is going to die. And i don't think the geass activates when he wants to choose death of life..you remember when the soldier tried to kill him.he didn't even think about choosing death over life :heh:

hero147

2008-08-12, 12:33

Even if he was to say he didn't want to die out loud deep down in his heart he knows he was/is going to die. And i don't think the geass activates when he wants to choose death of life..you remember when the soldier tried to kill him.he didn't even think about choosing death over life :heh:

We were never inside his head, we can't contemplate exactly what he thought at the time. My guess was he wanted the assassin to actually kill him, he wanted to end his life to atone for his sins. If he actually wanted to live, he would've fully moved by himself to stop the attack, but he didn't until the very last second when Geass kicked in.

squaresphere

2008-08-12, 12:34

Bottom line he can only be killed by a checkmate ;)

Sports72Xtrm

2008-08-12, 12:37

We were never inside his head, we can't contemplate exactly what he thought at the time. My guess was he wanted the assassin to actually kill him, he wanted to end his life to atone for his sins. If he actually wanted to live, he would've fully moved by himself to stop the attack, but he didn't until the very last second when Geass kicked in.

However that is mere speculation on your part dude >_>

demon_god04

2008-08-12, 12:39

However that is mere speculation on your part dude >_>

But it fits up with the other times that geass has triggered.

hero147

2008-08-12, 12:40

However that is mere speculation on your part dude >_>

Yep, that's what I put in the first sentence..:twitch: Since the other guy I quoted assumed that Suzaku didn't think before the attack itself. Which gives me reason to wonder, realistically, while Suzaku was thinking death>life in the anime, wouldn't by the time he said "that's right", Kallen would've toasted him.

Rising Dragon

2008-08-12, 12:41

Or, you know, the Geass also triggers when someone orders him to "die".

Sports72Xtrm

2008-08-12, 12:41

But it fits up with the other times that geass has triggered.

But you don't know if Geass was because of him giving up his will to live or if there were options for him to live. Thus it is speculation.

musouka

2008-08-12, 12:46

I have already stated my stance and supported it with evidence of what the show has shown us and rather then refuting the same points again and again, if you disagree then perhaps use some examples from the show to prove that I am spliting a hair so slender that all I am doing is cutting my fingers.

Look, what you are saying isn't "wrong", you're right that it kicks in when he "accepts death", but what you're missing is your addition of "accepts". "Accepts" or "doesn't accept" isn't the issue here, it's the "death".

Suzaku is the type of character that welcomes death, so when it stares him in the face after his qualifications have been met, then he'll meet it head on. In that respect, you're probably not going to get a "I don't want to die" moment from him. But of the other times you mentioned, such as the assassination attempt, we don't really have any insight as to his thoughts at that moment.

morbosfist

2008-08-12, 12:55

Look, what you are saying isn't "wrong", you're right that it kicks in when he "accepts death", but what you're missing is your addition of "accepts". "Accepts" or "doesn't accept" isn't the issue here, it's the "death".

Suzaku is the type of character that welcomes death, so when it stares him in the face after his qualifications have been met, then he'll meet it head on. In that respect, you're probably not going to get a "I don't want to die" moment from him. But of the other times you mentioned, such as the assassination attempt, we don't really have any insight as to his thoughts at that moment.Uh, yes we do know his thoughts then. He's pretty clear about the assassination attempt after the fact. He was going to let that soldier stab him as atonement and the Geass wouldn't let him. It is not wrong to say that "accepts death" is the trigger, because it is. In every situation, he has accepted that he was going to die, and the Geass stopped him. It's not simply a matter if he's well and truly fucked, he has to resolve that his death will happen.

musouka

2008-08-12, 13:19

Uh, yes we do know his thoughts then. He's pretty clear about the assassination attempt after the fact.

Not during the attempt, when the geass kicks in.

It's not simply a matter if he's well and truly fucked, he has to resolve that his death will happen.

Exactly. But that has nothing to do with "accepting death". You can be sure you're going to die and not want to die. That's what this entire argument comes down to. Suzaku being sure he's going to die = "geass kicking in". Suzaku wants to die which is why he accepts death every time, but again, it's not a "don't feel like you want to die" command.

If it's just him wanting to die, then the geass would show up a lot more often, such as when he's talking about the assassin afterwards. It doesn't. Why? The geass isn't attuned to his death wish, it's attuned to his sense of danger.

For example, someone could kill Suzaku by giving him a pen with a bomb that will explode when he uses it. Since he's not thinking "I'm going to die if I sign this paper", the geass wouldn't active.

morbosfist

2008-08-12, 13:25

Not during the attempt, when the geass kicks in."I desire the punishment of death deep in my heart." - What part of this is so difficult to fathom? He wanted it. Just because he doesn't say so at that moment doesn't change the fact that he explains it later

Exactly. But that has nothing to do with "accepting death". You can be sure you're going to die and not want to die. That's what this entire argument comes down to. Suzaku being sure he's going to die = "geass kicking in". Suzaku wants to die which is why he accepts death every time, but again, it's not a "don't feel like you want to die" command.That, as has been repeatedly demonstrated, is wrong. It's not just when he knows he's going to die. He knew that when Kallen cut off his leg. He has to accept it, otherwise he is still trying to live and the Geass doesn't work.

If it's just him wanting to die, then the geass would show up a lot more often, such as when he's talking about the assassin afterwards. It doesn't. Why? The geass isn't attuned to his death wish, it's attuned to his sense of danger.He desires death as a punishment, hence the only times he is willing to die is when his life is threatened by other people. It wouldn't be punishment if he just slit his wrists or something.

musouka

2008-08-12, 13:34

"I desire the punishment of death deep in my heart." - What part of this is so difficult to fathom? He wanted it. Just because he doesn't say so at that moment doesn't change the fact that he explains it later

Sigh. This argument is about the specifics of when the geass kicks in--whether it's when he thinks "I'm going to die" or "now I can die". Splitting hairs like this is ridiculous, but I know it's boiling down to the ridiculous argument that this is all Suzaku's fault because of his death wish.

That, as has been repeatedly demonstrated, is wrong. It's not just when he knows he's going to die. He knew that when Kallen cut off his leg. He has to accept it, otherwise he is still trying to live and the Geass doesn't work.

No, this has not been "repeatedly demonstrated".

Look, for a personal example, fairly recently I was in a traffic accident. As my car skidded out of control, I knew I was going to "crash" ("I can't win"), but then, I remember thinking quite clearly right as I hit the other car, "I'm going to die"--luckily I didn't! (Must have been that nuke I was carrying in the trunk :p)

In other words, that was two seperate scenes. There is a difference between acknowedging the situation and then coming to the sudden realization of "I can't make it out of this alive".

morbosfist

2008-08-12, 13:43

Sigh. This argument is about the specifics of when the geass kicks in--whether it's when he thinks "I'm going to die" or "now I can die". Splitting hairs like this is ridiculous, but I know it's boiling down to the ridiculous argument that this is all Suzaku's fault because of his death wish.We can ignore that argument. All that matters at the moment is when it activates. You can keep saying that it's at the moment when he's knows he's going to die, but it doesn't work in light of the facts. The fact is, he flipped that Eleven soldier with ease. The man was not a threat to him. He was going to let him be a threat, which is why the Geass activated. let's go back further to the Chinese Federation. He knew he was going to die. He had his last words prepared and everything. But when Euphy screamed out "live," that triggered the command, because she was trying to keep him from dying. This one incident is actually the anomaly in his live Geass functionality, but it demonstrates that it takes more than the knowledge of one's death to get it going.

No, this has not been "repeatedly demonstrated".

Look, for a personal example, fairly recently I was in a traffic accident. As my car skidded out of control, I knew I was going to "crash" ("I can't win"), but then, I remember thinking quite clearly right as I hit the other car, "I'm going to die"--luckily I didn't! (Must have been that nuke I was carrying in the trunk :p)

In other words, that was two seperate scenes. There is a difference between acknowedging the situation and then coming to the sudden realization of "I can't make it out of this alive".I've skidded through red lit intersections in the rain (lucky for me the other cars missed), so I get where you're coming from, but it doesn't work as a comparison. Each and every time, the anomaly aside, Suzaku has not only known his death was going to happen, he accepted it as fate and atonement. This is important, because it isn't until he accepts his fate that the Geass kicks in.

demon_god04

2008-08-12, 13:51

Sigh. This argument is about the specifics of when the geass kicks in--whether it's when he thinks "I'm going to die" or "now I can die". Splitting hairs like this is ridiculous, but I know it's boiling down to the ridiculous argument that this is all Suzaku's fault because of his death wish.

No, this has not been "repeatedly demonstrated".

Look, for a personal example, fairly recently I was in a traffic accident. As my car skidded out of control, I knew I was going to "crash" ("I can't win"), but then, I remember thinking quite clearly right as I hit the other car, "I'm going to die"--luckily I didn't! (Must have been that nuke I was carrying in the trunk :p)

In other words, that was two seperate scenes. There is a difference between acknowedging the situation and then coming to the sudden realization of "I can't make it out of this alive".

Your personal example has very little to do with Suzaku's live geass as we are debating whether the geass triggers when he accepts his death rather then knowing a situation would kill him. If that was the case why did his geass not activate when Luciano threw the knife at his head, is a knife coming at your face not dangerous enough to warrant the geass triggering? Rather then repeating what you think why not use examples in the show to back up your thinking then? We have repeatedly brought up examples from the show about the specifics of when Suzaku's live geass triggers. Use examples from the show to back up your logic rather as it would hold more weight in an argument in this case.

King Lycan

2008-08-12, 13:58

I really think the geass activities when he is about to die not only if he accepts his death. I really don't think the "live on" that Lelouch cast upon him is that complicated :heh:

musouka

2008-08-12, 14:18

Use examples from the show to back up your logic rather as it would hold more weight in an argument in this case.

I have used examples from the show. We were just discussing the latest episode for crying out loud.

Look, we can go over this until the cows come home. What it boils down to is this--are you people arguing that if Suzaku hadn't "given in", his "live" geass wouldn't have activated? If that's what you're arguing, then we really need more data. Mainly we need to see a moment when Suzaku is faced with death and doesn't want to die in order to test your hypothesis. Otherwise we're going to keep on going around in circles, because Suzaku has a death wish as of this point and it's not very likely for him to be faced with death and struggle against it.

As a point against "giving up", I'd say your theory holds water at this point--much like how everything that happened in episode eighteen was the result of all of Lelouch's selfish, thoughtless decisions coming to bite him on the ass--but repeating time and time again that when Suzaku is confronted with death he welcomes it is not the same as "welcoming death" being the trigger.

Discerptor

2008-08-12, 14:27

Suzaku knew he would die if he didn't use FLEIJA. Even if he decided to fight on or run away instead of sit there, he would still know he was "accepting death." The Live Geass thus would have activated anyway. How this is even mildly debatable is beyond me. The entire point of the scene was that FLEIJA was his only chance of living AND HE KNEW THAT, and that's why Geass made him use FLEIJA. The blind Suzaku-bashers are trying to penalise him over realising the truth and not being stupid enough to think he had any chance at living if he didn't use FLEIJA. That sums up the idiocy of their argument.

Kaze

2008-08-12, 14:32

Suzaku knew he would die if he didn't use FREIJA. Even if he decided to fight on or run away instead of sit there, he would still know he was "accepting death." The Live Geass thus would have activated anyway. How this is even mildly debatable is beyond me. The entire point of the scene was that FREIJA was his only chance of living AND HE KNEW THAT, and that's why Geass made him use FREIJA. The blind Suzaku-bashers are trying to penalise him over realising the truth and not being stupid enough to think he had any chance at living if he didn't use FREIJA. That sums up the idiocy of their argument.

I believe that Suzaku's "Live geass" works a a primal instinct within him, it let's him "Cheat Death" or so to say by not thinking and just acting on the path that will ensure his survival the most.

As with the assassin, he knocked him out, he didn't shoot laserbeams from his eyes or anything, he can only do what he can in order to survive.

Discerptor

2008-08-12, 14:35

I believe that Suzaku's "Live geass" works a a primal instinct within him, it let's him "Cheat Death" or so to say by not thinking and just acting on the path that will ensure his survival the most.

As with the assassin, he knocked him out, he didn't shoot laserbeams from his eyes or anything, he can only do what he can in order to survive.

That's probably true, but I decided to play along with the trolls' games since they seem to think it hinges on Suzaku consciously "giving up" on life.

Narona

2008-08-12, 14:36

Suzaku knew he would die if he didn't use FREIJA. Even if he decided to fight on or run away instead of sit there, he would still know he was "accepting death." The Live Geass thus would have activated anyway. How this is even mildly debatable is beyond me. The entire point of the scene was that FREIJA was his only chance of living AND HE KNEW THAT, and that's why Geass made him use FREIJA. The blind Suzaku-bashers are trying to penalise him over realising the truth and not being stupid enough to think he had any chance at living if he didn't use FREIJA. That sums up the idiocy of their argument.
He got a chance to escape only by using freija, because everyone (Kallen too) stopped the fight and were trying to get away from Freija.

If not, Kallen would have hunted him down without any mercy.

Poorboy93

2008-08-12, 14:37

Suzaku knew he would die if he didn't use FREIJA. Even if he decided to fight on or run away instead of sit there, he would still know he was "accepting death." The Live Geass thus would have activated anyway. How this is even mildly debatable is beyond me. The entire point of the scene was that FREIJA was his only chance of living AND HE KNEW THAT, and that's why Geass made him use FREIJA. The blind Suzaku-bashers are trying to penalise him over realising the truth and not being stupid enough to think he had any chance at living if he didn't use FREIJA. That sums up the idiocy of their argument.

He could have threw FREIJA away before entering battle, blew it up where no one could get hurt.
That way he could die an honorable death

Discerptor

2008-08-12, 14:37

He got a chance to escape only by using freija, because everyone (Kallen too) stopped the fight and were trying to get away from Freija.

If not, Kallen would have hunted him down without any mercy.

I'm not sure how that goes against what I just said. That's simply the reason why FLEIJA was his only chance to live.

He could have threw FREIJA away before entering battle, blew it up where no one could get hurt.
That way he could die an honorable death
This idea was debunked at least 15 times several pages back. I'm not going to repeat those arguments here.

Narona

2008-08-12, 14:39

I'm not sure how that goes against what I just said. That's simply the reason why FREIJA was his only chance to live.
You get it wrong :heh: . I was not trying to prove that you are wrong, but I was pointing this because you're right :) !

Kaze

2008-08-12, 14:39

That's probably true, but I decided to play along with the trolls' games since they seem to think it hinges on Suzaku "giving up" on life.

Just let them troll, arguing on a forum is not productive, as a conflict is almost never won. :rolleyes:

Poorboy93

2008-08-12, 14:40

This idea was debunked at least 15 times several pages back. I'm not going to repeat those arguments here.

Wow you repeated it for anyone besides me? Atleast Direct me in that page.
I was the only one who stated those Ideas

Poorboy93

2008-08-12, 14:41

Just let them troll, arguing on a forum is not productive, as a conflict is almost never won. :rolleyes:

No one wins because everyone is equally stubbern to there opinion, including me aha

Discerptor

2008-08-12, 14:43

Wow you repeated it for anyone besides me? Atleast Direct me in that page.
I was the only one who stated those Ideas

I'll summarise, but you should really go look for yourself. I'm not your errand boy:

-There is no guarantee Suzaku was able to unload the weapon without firing it, and in fact he probably wasn't able to since it was a big deal for the engineers to load it onto Lancelot and there would be no reason for a brand new experimental weapon to be convenient to unload for the Knightmare Frame pilot.
-If he was able and had thrown FREIA away, Nina/Schneizel would have just ordered someone more willing to use it.
-Trying to blow up a nuke of all things is probably a bad idea, assuming the gun is even that flimsy (probably not)

demon_god04

2008-08-12, 14:45

I have used examples from the show. We were just discussing the latest episode for crying out loud.

Look, we can go over this until the cows come home. What it boils down to is this--are you people arguing that if Suzaku hadn't "given in", his "live" geass wouldn't have activated? If that's what you're arguing, then we really need more data. Mainly we need to see a moment when Suzaku is faced with death and doesn't want to die in order to test your hypothesis. Otherwise we're going to keep on going around in circles, because Suzaku has a death wish as of this point and it's not very likely for him to be faced with death and struggle against it.

As a point against "giving up", I'd say your theory holds water at this point--much like how everything that happened in episode eighteen was the result of all of Lelouch's selfish, thoughtless decisions coming to bite him on the ass--but repeating time and time again that when Suzaku is confronted with death he welcomes it is not the same as "welcoming death" being the trigger.

You brought up examples using a car accident to prove your point.

And as as been pointed out already, Suzaku has been in situations that are life threatening, Luciano throwing a knife at him wasn't? And as I have pointed out in the times that geass has triggered, it triggered not as a direct result of the danger as it did not trigger when the Gurren's claw came down on him which in itself was facing death but rather right as he thought that he should accept his death as atonement. Or when Euphie told him to live when he was dictating his will to her and how it did not trigger when the assassin ran at him until he did not do anything and he later admitted that he deserved punishment. Basically it is consistent in how it activates, rather then at first sign of him facing death it is when he accepts or rather consigns himself to that fate that it triggers.

Suzaku knew he would die if he didn't use FREIJA. Even if he decided to fight on or run away instead of sit there, he would still know he was "accepting death." The Live Geass thus would have activated anyway. How this is even mildly debatable is beyond me. The entire point of the scene was that FREIJA was his only chance of living AND HE KNEW THAT, and that's why Geass made him use FREIJA. The blind Suzaku-bashers are trying to penalise him over realising the truth and not being stupid enough to think he had any chance at living if he didn't use FREIJA. That sums up the idiocy of their argument.

Discussing what triggers his geass is now bashing Suzaku? I have not even said one word against him using the damn thing and rather have already stated that Nina and Schneizel bear alot more blame then he did. Blind Suzaku defenders are no better really.