Character Discussion - Suzaku

[Eliarine]

keep in mind that if the OOBK had pulled their thumb out of their asses and sent some forces to the damocles they would have won
lelouch didnt have any other KMF's there
and the only real defeanse he had there was suzaku
so kallen basiclly cleared the path for them
and if suzaku hadnt disabled her with that last attack she might have even been able to take lelouch out as well (since like i said there were no other KMF's there)
in the end kallen almost stopped their plans single handedly
and thats pretty impressive when you consider that they were facing both shnizel and xing-ke who both proved less of an obsticle

Yeah, I know. Kallen is the main protagonist of the series after all, so that's not surprising.

[bladeofdarkness]

Yeah, I know. Kallen is the main protagonist of the series after all, so that's not surprising.

not protagonist
there is another word that might fit better (its one thats often used to discraibe the protagonist) :heh:
more so after lelouch stopped being one himself (cant really call him one after his actions in the last arc)

but jokes aside
it IS true that she almost stopped his entire plan single handedly

[Eliarine]

but it IS true that she almost stopped his entire plan single handedly

And it's also true that she failed. Lelouch and Suzaku didn't.

[FreiheitFirewolf]

i don't believe that

The Guren Energy wings are destroyed into the battle, it can't Fly

Damocles is near of reach orbital height, and the KMF cannot operate, in case that Tristan carry the Guren

and the OotBK are half-destroyed for the Mt Fuji strategy, and the Damocles is a Air Superiory ammo

be carefully

[bladeofdarkness]

i don't believe that

The Guren Energy wings are destroyed into the battle, it can't Fly

Damocles is near of reach orbital height, and the KMF cannot operate, in case that Tristan carry the Guren

and the OotBK are half-destroyed for the Mt Fuji strategy, and the Damocles is a Air Superiory ammo

be carefully

consider what would have happened if xing-ke had gathered some akatsuki's and attacked the damocles after kallen destroyed the albion
what stops them from taking the damocels over (aside from the fact that lelouch had already taken over the friya switch)

[NyxOne]

But they couldn't, because if they did, Lelouch could have easily FLEIA'd them to oblivion.

[morbosfist]

No he couldn't. It takes ten minutes to load a warhead. Lelouch had the fear factor on his side. They had no idea of the reload time, ammunition stores, or firing limit of the Damocles. They wouldn't risk attacking it.

[NyxOne]

Okay, I'll give you that. But, still, fear factor. That and his soldiers would have swiftly intercepted any attacks on their 'master'...

[bladeofdarkness]

But they couldn't, because if they did, Lelouch could have easily FLEIA'd them to oblivion.

thats the whole point
thats the only reason he won in the end (becouse he had taken over the damocels)
if they had attacked five minutes before that they would already be on the damocles and would have taken him down
his army got friyaed have to death
c.c was out of the fight
suzaku was out
jeremia was out
the avalon was taken over
and all he had left were mooks
if he didnt use the friya then he'd be dead (even kaguya asks C.C if she'd plead for his life, since she was under the impression that the tides had turned )

[NyxOne]

It's the 'only reason', but it's what Lelouch intended to do anyway.

[bladeofdarkness]

It's the 'only reason', but it's what Lelouch intended to do anyway.

yes
in the end he snatched victory by the skin of his teeth and made then surrender
if just one of them had the balls to say "fuck that im taking him out" he would have lost
becouse he was without anyone there to defeand him

[NyxOne]

Uh, no-one could take him out.

* THEIR fleet was partially affected by the FLEIA blasts, and got a whole lot of damage from Mt. Fuji exploding.

* Li was on the Avalon, and the Shen Hu couldn't match up to the Lancelot.

* Toudou was out of the fight.

* All the BKs had left were mooks, and Chiba.

* Gino was incapacitated.

* Kallen was fighting Suzaku.

So, yeah.

[bladeofdarkness]

Uh, no-one could take him out.

* THEIR fleet was partially affected by the FLEIA blasts, and got a whole lot of damage from Mt. Fuji exploding.

* Li was on the Avalon, and the Shen Hu couldn't match up to the Lancelot.

* Toudou was out of the fight.

* All the BKs had left were mooks, and Chiba.

* Gino was incapacitated.

* Kallen was fighting Suzaku.

So, yeah.

actually Li was out of the avalon flying to the damocles (watch the ep)
and most of Lelouch's fleet was gone (friya)
if they attacked after kallen destroyed the lancelot lelouch would have been defenseless

[NyxOne]

But they couldn't because Lelouch had FLEIAs.

Ah, yes, Li got out. Still doesn't help any. And after Toudou's ejection, Chiba stayed at the Dan Long Dan or whatever it's called for most of the time.

[bladeofdarkness]

my whole point was that lelouch would have lost if they attacked the damocles at that point
but since he had the friya they didnt dare to
if they did they would have won
i'm not argueing that he won
i'm saying that he won by the skin of his teeth and if he hadnt gotten that friya switch until 10 minuts later the whole war would have turned out different

[bladeofdarkness]

kaguya seemed sure that now that suzkau was "dead" they would win
she even asked C.C if she'd plead for lelouch's life

[Nogitsune]

So Lelouch loved Kallen more than anyone else except Nunally because he didn't involve her in his plan?

*pats Suzaku*
Don't worry, he loved you more than her. o.o
...Errr, hey, don't run!
I meant that in a strictly platonic way! q.q

;P

[bladeofdarkness]

the hell did that come from :confused:

[Nogitsune]

the hell did that come from :confused:

I'm a very random person. o.o
Sorry. xD

[Knight Of Zero]

kaguya seemed sure that now that suzkau was "dead" they would win
she even asked C.C if she'd plead for lelouch's life
Plus Avalon was taken over she was confident that her side would win. The Knight Of Zero would be the WORLD's second greatest enermy.

[bladeofdarkness]

Plus Avalon was taken over she was confident that her side would win. The Knight Of Zero would be the WORLD's second greatest enermy.

except he was "dead"
so that just leaves lelouch

[blitz1/2]

But they couldn't because Lelouch had FLEIAs.

Ah, yes, Li got out. Still doesn't help any. And after Toudou's ejection, Chiba stayed at the Dan Long Dan or whatever it's called for most of the time.

Sure if Li went out, he would have been pummeled by grunts. Even if the order of black knights intercepted, Britannia (Lulu) would have owned them since I am sure many of his KMFs were in the area.

I was paying more attention to the streams of light and explosions than Lulu and Nunnally arguing about geass and Damocles.

[Knight Of Zero]

except he was "dead"
so that just leaves lelouch
I know but my point that Kugaya believe Lelouch would end up in the way as Suzaku......TOO BAD for her it didn't work out:heh:

[blitz1/2]

I know but my point that Kugaya believe Lelouch would end up in the way as Suzaku......TOO BAD for her it didn't work out:heh:

Yea, Kaguya should have been FLEJA'd. (wow, add that to the dictionary as a new word)

[NyxOne]

And...why?

[blitz1/2]

And...why?

why what? why kaguya should have been Fleja'd? Or why add Fleja to dictionary?

[NyxOne]

The first option.

[bladeofdarkness]

why what? why kaguya should have been Fleja'd? Or why add Fleja to dictionary?

why friya kaguya
she didnt do anything wrong
lelouch took her hostage for his own reasons

[blitz1/2]

The first option.

Because we could have added more characters to the body bags.

Kaguya was pointless as a character other than to serve as a loli in Lulu's harem, good thing she didn't go "nii-nii" or I would have broken the screen.

The nuke was pretty large, why not engulf her too in the explosion?

[NyxOne]

She wasn't deserving of death.

[Nogitsune]

I rather liked Kaguya. o.o

[bladeofdarkness]

giving her a bigger role in season 2 was one of its better deceisions

[FreiheitFirewolf]

giving her a bigger role in season 2 was one of its better deceisions

but in the end of the series she was relegated to nothing (she can be the Japan Chief instead of ohgi:eyebrow:):topicoff:

in the case of Damocles, i don't believe that Kallen and the OotBK can make damage to Zero Requiem, Suzaku can beat to all BK aces if he like, but that don't was the priority. in hte case of Kallen simply wit disable the Guren can accomplete the mission, don't is necesary kill her. in addition, the goal of Lelouch and Suzaku in Zero Requiem is the peace and happiness of all world and your friends (Kallen included) in exchange of your "deaths", and the fight with Kallen is the perfect excuse for this

be carefully

[morbosfist]

in the case of Damocles, i don't believe that Kallen and the OotBK can make damage to Zero Requiem, Suzaku can beat to all BK aces if he like, but that don't was the priority. in hte case of Kallen simply wit disable the Guren can accomplete the mission, don't is necesary kill her. in addition, the goal of Lelouch and Suzaku in Zero Requiem is the peace and happiness of all world and your friends (Kallen included) in exchange of your "deaths", and the fight with Kallen is the perfect excuse for thisYour posts are barely readable, are you a native English speaker?

As to your post, what I can make of it, Suzaku couldn't beat Kallen. He just barely disabled her with that last shot. He did not arrange that loss, and if you paid attention to the dialog during the fight that would be obvious.

[morbosfist]

the bastard got what he wanted and gets to live the good lifeUh, no. In fact, what he wanted was to die, and instead he gets to wear a mask 24/7 and never get to die.

[FreiheitFirewolf]

Your posts are barely readable, are you a native English speaker?

As to your post, what I can make of it, Suzaku couldn't beat Kallen. He just barely disabled her with that last shot. He did not arrange that loss, and if you paid attention to the dialog during the fight that would be obvious.

you have reason: i don't a native english speaker :heh:.

in the other post, i talk about if Kallen beat Suzaku without he disable the Guren, in that moment she cannot stop Zero Requiem.

[X_Danny_X]

Your posts are barely readable, are you a native English speaker?

As to your post, what I can make of it, Suzaku couldn't beat Kallen. He just barely disabled her with that last shot. He did not arrange that loss, and if you paid attention to the dialog during the fight that would be obvious.

what the hell? barely disable? he took out the whole machine out!!!! the whole Seiten went dead and kallen was disable as well and needed help to survive

you called disabling the whole blasted superior machine in the series just "barely" when it was stopped from functioning/continuing with a straight shot to the head and sent the pilot as well to her doom?

he didnt lose in this fight. nobody won when it came to their machines since both were done in a different way and were shut down.


but if you want to continue on with the pilots, Suzaku could of still continue while Kallen could not and her ass was disable as well. also that she could not escape death without help.

again, what each fighter accomplished. Kallen accomplished devily squat in this fight, Suzaku accomplished what he needed to do. In the end, Kallen and Suzaku fought to draw with their machines but Suzaku won the war.


and for the people who dont believe Suzaku needed to fake his death, this anime is a chess oriented show. you put people in certain places and also sacrifice some pieces purposely to achieve a higher goal. Suzaku purposely fake his death and made everyone think he loss/die since it was needed for Zero R., him to become Zero, and the entity formally known as "Suzaku" would no longer be alive.

his quick thinking made the battle what it was, a draw, stopping Kallen, and faking his death.


man, Suzaku looks like the main character of a couple of the Gundam dudes. at least you can he fail to be the main character, assuming that code geass ends now, he may just become the main character since he is zero. hahah, lol


anyway, i always wonder why i continue arguing this? going and rehashing same info over and over. i will post again and pointing out why that if Suzaku didnt needed to fake his death, then why were hints given and that they could announced that he was alive.

[morbosfist]

what the hell? barely disable? he took out the whole machine out!!!! the whole Seiten went dead and kallen was disable as well and needed help to survive

you called disabling the whole blasted superior machine in the series just "barely" when it was stopped from functioning/continuing with a straight shot to the head and sent the pilot as well to her doom?Yes, I do call it barely, because it was a desperate attack. He tried to kick her and she broke his leg and was an inch from killing him. He barely managed to take her out with him.

but if you want to continue on with the pilots, Suzaku could of still continue while Kallen could not and her ass was disable as well. also that she could not escape death without help.What's he gonna do without a mech, stab the other pilots? He was out of the fight just as much as she was.

and for the people who dont believe Suzaku needed to fake his death, this anime is a chess oriented show. you put people in certain places and also sacrifice some pieces purposely to achieve a higher goal. Suzaku purposely fake his death and made everyone think he loss/die since it was needed for Zero R., him to become Zero, and the entity formally known as "Suzaku" would no longer be alive.Then you obviously haven't watched the battle, because there was nothing fake about the way he lost. It was convienient, nothing more.

[X_Danny_X]

Yes, I do call it barely, because it was a desperate attack. He tried to kick her and she broke his leg and was an inch from killing him. He barely managed to take her out with him.


again nick picking, but he was still far from out. jesus, at that time he lost a leg and she lost her main arm...they were even after that again damn.. holy crap, i cant belive this....


then they both did their finishing blows....why do you even bother bringing this up? they both got their shots in in their last seconds of fighting and cancel each other machines out. however both Kallen and her machine went down first.

holy mother of god.




What's he gonna do without a mech, stab the other pilots? He was out of the fight just as much as she was.


this is has nothing to do with that, she came out worst off in that draw battle with mechas and could not continue and would of die.....Suzaku was still conscious and escape a deadly blast. in the end she would of been dead and he alive.

also i am saying if they went hand to hand between the two and somehow Kallen survived her fall from the Guren and not passing out and Gino was not around, she would of been outclassed against Suzaku in hand to hand martial arts fighting where he is also a powerful fighter while Kallen is nowhere near the sort.


Then you obviously haven't watched the battle, because there was nothing fake about the way he lost. It was convienient, nothing more.

Lol, he needed to fake his death, he saw the opportunity with Kallen in the final moments, one arm was gone, and the arm he saw coming and allow to hit him while he managed to take her out. he went for a double ko and he got it. The pilot formally known as Suzaku needed to die in order for Zero. R to continue.

he could of blocked or partially blocked the other Guren arm with his other arm enough for it to not do enough damage to make his machine blow but he didnt.

we were given hints before and after the battle is what i am saying that Suzaku needed to fake his death for Zero R.

1) there was a grave for Suzaku and saying he was dead. A grave, go figure.

2) it was broadcast to the whole world to know that Suzaku was dead and died
in battle

3) there was a 2 month time gap, way enough time to announced that Suzaku
is alive and well but they didnt and prepare a grave for the guy, lol.


4) Kallen stopping Toujou from thinking that Zero was actually Suzaku in disguise. and this was after Suzaku had stabbed Lelouch.

5) Jerimiah is basically the strongest fighter with his cyborg parts and could do what Suzaku can do..he could of disguise himself as Zero. But Suzaku was chosen

6) Lelouch already told us the viewers that Suzaku could not live as Suzaku no more and now only as Zero.

these two hints given before the fight the episode started. the summary of the episode of saying "Goodbye Lelouch, Farewell Suzaku" ... and ofcourse all this talk about Suzaku wanting to die and atone for his sins....

oh yeah Suzaku didnt need to fake his death. this was his opportunity...if he didnt fake his death with Kallen, he would of done it some other way....people would of been suspicious if everyone knew he was alive and played Zero. it would of been to obvious.


also im pondering if that punch from Kallen even did the damage that it was supposed. it makes more sense that Suzaku self destructed his machine. though that ofcourse is theory.

[morbosfist]

again nick picking, but he was still far from out. jesus, at that time he lost a leg and she lost her main arm...they were even after that again damn.. holy crap, i cant belive this....Again, obviously you aren't watching the battle. Her arm was fine. The focusing rods for the radiant surge are what broke. She had two good arms and two good legs. Suzaku was skating on a stump and using one arm for balance.

then they both did their finishing blows....why do you even bother bringing this up? they both got their shots in in their last seconds of fighting and cancel each other machines out. however both Kallen and her machine went down first.No, their machines went down at the same time. Suzaku's just didn't fall over.

this is has nothing to do with that, she came out worst off in that draw battle with mechas and could not continue and would of die.....Suzaku was still conscious and escape a deadly blast. in the end she would of been dead and he alive.Except Gino caught her, so she's not dead. You want to take away Kallen's saving grace yet leave Suzaku's. Neither could fight, period. Suzaku had no mech and neither did Kallen, and depending on the distance of that fall she could have woken up and ejected, not to mention some other ally noticing her and catching her.

also i am saying if they went hand to hand between the two and somehow Kallen survived her fall from the Guren and not passing out and Gino was not around, she would of been outclassed against Suzaku in hand to hand martial arts fighting where he is also a powerful fighter while Kallen is nowhere near the sort. This is just stupid. They weren't fighting hand to hand, nor would they at any point. Kallen was safe inside her Guren and Suzaku had to get inside before he froze to death.

Lol, he needed to fake his death, he saw the opportunity with Kallen in the final moments, one arm was gone, and the arm he saw coming and allow to hit him while he managed to take her out. he went for a double ko and he got it. The pilot formally known as Suzaku needed to die in order for Zero. R to continue.Watch the fucking fight. I'm tired of saying it. You're just making shit up now. She had both arms, one of which he knocked off with his last attack. He was trying not to get hit and failed. Suzaku did not need to die in this specific battle. There are any number of ways to do it after. You're just trying to belittle Kallen, when the official site outright says she won, by claiming Suzaku planned this.

he could of blocked or partially blocked the other Guren arm with his other arm enough for it to not do enough damage to make his machine blow but he didnt.That arm was keeping him upright. If he had moved it, he'd have fallen over. Your point fails.

we were given hints before and after the battle is what i am saying that Suzaku needed to fake his death for Zero R.

1) there was a grave for Suzaku and saying he was dead. A grave, go figure.

2) it was broadcast to the whole world to know that Suzaku was dead and died
in battle

3) there was a 2 month time gap, way enough time to announced that Suzaku
is alive and well but they didnt and prepare a grave for the guy, lol.This has absolutely nothing to do with their fight. Suzaku was declared dead because people thought him dead. Him being dead was part of the plan. Him getting his ass kicked and nearly dying for real was not. There are no hints aside from him being alive. You're just making this up to suit your argument. He was trying to win and failed.

4) Kallen stopping Toujou from thinking that Zero was actually Suzaku in disguise. and this was after Suzaku had stabbed Lelouch.

5) Jerimiah is basically the strongest fighter with his cyborg parts and could do what Suzaku can do..he could of disguise himself as Zero. But Suzaku was chosen

6) Lelouch already told us the viewers that Suzaku could not live as Suzaku no more and now only as Zero.Kallen stopped Tohdoh because she understood what they were trying to do. Jeremiah is much taller than Lelouch while Suzaku is the same size, plus there's the fact that it's their promise, not Jeremiah's. Point 6 is completely meaningless. All this crap has nothing to do with their fight. It's just what they did after.

these two hints given before the fight the episode started. the summary of the episode of saying "Goodbye Lelouch, Farewell Suzaku" ... and ofcourse all this talk about Suzaku wanting to die and atone for his sins....Again meaningless to the fight.

oh yeah Suzaku didnt need to fake his death. this was his opportunity...if he didnt fake his death with Kallen, he would of done it some other way....people would of been suspicious if everyone knew he was alive and played Zero. it would of been to obvious.If it were an opportunity, he wouldn't be trying to win. Your logic fails horribly.

also im pondering if that punch from Kallen even did the damage that it was supposed. it makes more sense that Suzaku self destructed his machine. though that ofcourse is theory.When she slashed C.C.'s lancelot across the chest, it exploded. Burying her fist in the Albion's chest did the same. Not to mention the fact that the Albion shut down, so he wouldn't be self-destructing one way or the other.

[bladeofdarkness]

for all the talk about the SEITEN having higher specs you keep forgetting one thing
in the end of the fight the only thing that kept suzaku from complete defeat (and as such, kept kallen from getting to lelouch) was the fact that the albion had 4 slash harkens while the SEITEN had 2
becouse before he used those other two the guren was still able to fight (at the same state as a normal 7th gen KMF) while the albion had a missing leg, was unable to use one of its arms (for fear of falling over) and the arm it had used to try and block the claw was shattered by it (its missing when you see it again) and he was about to die (from the claw)
the fight was won the moment that he tried that kick and kallen ended up taking out the leg (the equivalent of two fighters clashing swords and one of the swords breaks)
it is more then a little symbolic, since it was basiclly their signiture attacks
the gurens claw against the spinzaku kick
i dont question that the SEITEN probably had better specs
but at that point they were both without any of the stuff that makes the spec difference (wings, beam weapons, shields, mvs)
it was pilot vs pilot
both with machines that let them push themselves to the limit of their own piloting abilities, rather then set the limit at machine potential (like the SEITEN vs conquesta battle, where suzaku was able to keep up but his machine couldnt)
and at that point it was the albion that had the edge (which ended up saving the day)

suzaku comments about using the live geass while kallen ponders the fact her specs should be higher
kallen doesnt know about the live geass
but suzaku should be well aware of the spec difference
Lloyd did make it after all, and would have probably told suzaku about it (the question is what makes kallen sure of it ?)
but suzaku never the less seems convinced that the live geass should let him win despite the spec difference
becouse it would let him push himself (and as such his machine) to the peak of human ability (which let him beat bismark, a man who could see the future)
except kallen was able to do the same (push herself to the limit of her ability, and match him move for move) without the live geass
which means that while suzaku's "live" geass was forcing him to push himself to the limit kallen was doing it by sheer will alone (considering she passed out right after, it shows just how hard she was pushing herself)
but i doubt she would have passed out if the guren was still able to fight (she was dead set on stoping lelouch) and only allowed herself to collapse after seeing that there was nothing more she could do

and i still say he ejected using the ejection block and we just didnt see it
what makes more sense
1)him jumping out of the back, running fast enough to avoid dying in the blast (on foot) and then getting into the damocles (where would there be a door) before freezing to death
or 2) ejecting and staying in the ejection block (which has life support systems) and activate an emergency becon to call for help
considering how much that fight took out of kallen he couldnt have been that much better off (live geass or not, its got to be hard pushing yourself so hard for so long)

suzaku is an amazing pilot (either the best or second best in the show)
and he managed to save ZERO-R with that last attack (preventing kallen from getting to lelouch)
but in that fight even he admitted that kallen won (that he couldnt win and that she reached him,despite him trying his hardest to win)

[Nogitsune]

Hu?
Who cares who won?
Suzaku and Kallen are both incredible pilots.
In my eyes, they are equal in battle.
Errr... well, except if you kill Euphie and blame it on Kallen in order to pit them against each other.
Because then she would be in trouble. xD

[Knight Of Zero]

^Sukuzu lives geass pushes him to his limit Kallen has a stronger machine that how the fight was even. Suzaku lives geass will make Suzaku DO ANYTHING to surive^He probaly run at an unbeliveable speed to escape the explosion.
@ Bladeofdarkness

[NyxOne]

So he 'ran'. Okay, but being stuck at about 60,000 feet isn't the best of situations. Unless his command allowed him to survive a fall of that height? :rolleyes:

He knew the explosion wouldn't kill him anyway.

[Knight Of Zero]

So he 'ran'. Okay, but being stuck at about 60,000 feet isn't the best of situations. Unless his command allowed him to survive a fall of that height? :rolleyes:

He knew the explosion wouldn't kill him anyway.
Just read my comment again.

[bladeofdarkness]

Just read my comment again.

how about you re-read MY comment

for all the talk about the SEITEN having higher specs you keep forgetting one thing
in the end of the fight the only thing that kept suzaku from complete defeat (and as such, kept kallen from getting to lelouch) was the fact that the albion had 4 slash harkens while the SEITEN had 2
becouse before he used those other two the guren was still able to fight (at the same state as a normal 7th gen KMF) while the albion had a missing leg, was unable to use one of its arms (for fear of falling over) and the arm it had used to try and block the claw was shattered by it (its missing when you see it again) and he was about to die (from the claw)
the fight was won the moment that he tried that kick and kallen ended up taking out the leg (the equivalent of two fighters clashing swords and one of the swords breaks)
it is more then a little symbolic, since it was basiclly their signiture attacks
the gurens claw against the spinzaku kick
i dont question that the SEITEN probably had better specs
but at that point they were both without any of the stuff that makes the spec difference (wings, beam weapons, shields, mvs)
it was pilot vs pilot
both with machines that let them push themselves to the limit of their own piloting abilities, rather then set the limit at machine potential (like the SEITEN vs conquesta battle, where suzaku was able to keep up but his machine couldnt)
and at that point it was the albion that had the edge (which ended up saving the day)

suzaku comments about using the live geass while kallen ponders the fact her specs should be higher
kallen doesnt know about the live geass
but suzaku should be well aware of the spec difference
Lloyd did make it after all, and would have probably told suzaku about it (the question is what makes kallen sure of it ?)
but suzaku never the less seems convinced that the live geass should let him win despite the spec difference
becouse it would let him push himself (and as such his machine) to the peak of human ability (which let him beat bismark, a man who could see the future)
except kallen was able to do the same (push herself to the limit of her ability, and match him move for move) without the live geass
which means that while suzaku's "live" geass was forcing him to push himself to the limit kallen was doing it by sheer will alone (considering she passed out right after, it shows just how hard she was pushing herself) but i doubt she would have passed out if the guren was still able to fight (she was dead set on stoping lelouch) and only allowed herself to collapse after seeing that there was nothing more she could do

and i still say he ejected using the ejection block and we just didnt see it
what makes more sense
1)him jumping out of the back, running fast enough to avoid dying in the blast (on foot) and then getting into the damocles (where would there be a door) before freezing to death
or 2) ejecting and staying in the ejection block (which has life support systems) and activate an emergency becon to call for help
considering how much that fight took out of kallen he couldnt have been that much better off (live geass or not, its got to be hard pushing yourself so hard for so long)
suzaku is an amazing pilot (either the best or second best in the show)
and he managed to save ZERO-R with that last attack (preventing kallen from getting to lelouch)
but in that fight even he admitted that kallen won (that he couldnt win and that she reached him,despite him trying his hardest to win)

[NyxOne]

He probaly run at an unbeliveable speed to escape the explosion.


I don't see anything different here.

[Knight Of Zero]

I don't see anything different here.re-read my comment again than kept reading until u see the difference.

[NyxOne]

Yes, your comment, if you can read it, states that Suzaku, in the space of about four seconds, got out of the Albion (when it takes about three for the hatch to open or close) and ran away from the explosion, which was so large that it would have engulfed him anyway. Blade's point is that he ejected, unseen, during the Albion's explosion. Which is more feasible?

[bladeofdarkness]

I don't see your point:confused: ......how about re-read my comment^^:heh:

my point was that all his geass lets him do is push HIMSELF to the limit of his abilities (which are almost super human)
it doesnt give him superpowers but rather acts in a way that lets him fight at 100% of his abilities
so running away from an explosion that big (while not even trying to get out of the cockpit until AFTER kallen fell off the platform) and then not freezeing to death is not a live geass enabled power (keep in mind that it didnt let him beat bismark at sword fighting)
it gives him the ability to push himself to HIS limits
when he got the albion he had a machine that lets him fight to the point where the limit is set
not by his machines potential as was the case with the conquesta (we know that it was the machine limit rather then his since once he got the albion he can push it to greater abilities)
his live geass lets him pilot at 100% of his skill while the albion lets him use that 100% skill and doesnt limit him
the SEITEN may have better specs (how much better,we dont know)
but its all for not if the pilot cant use it (Lloyd said no one else could even pilot it)
so basiclly during the fight both pilots were fighting at their own peak skill level
while using machines that let them use those skills to their limit (the KMF's could do more, but the pilots couldnt)

[Eliarine]

I like how we hardly ever get to talk about Suzaku himself in this thread. Anyone up for some discussion about the guy? I personally found it very interesting that the one character who wanted to die found himself condemned to live on in the end. Also, I would pay to know what were the original plans for his connection to the Geass. If I had money, that is.

[Witacume]

I like how we hardly ever get to talk about Suzaku himself in this thread. Anyone up for some discussion about the guy? I personally found it very interesting that the one character who wanted to die found himself condemned to live on in the end. Also, I would pay to know what were the original plans for his connection to the Geass. If I had money, that is.

well two people wanted to die and didn't CC and Suzaku.
I wasn't really surprise.
It made for a great punishment though I felt lelouch dying was a cop out to be honest.

Suzaku though in living he has to care for the world as Zero

[Eliarine]

I wasn't really surprise.
It made for a great punishment though I felt lelouch dying was a cop out to be honest.

Suzaku though in living he has to care for the world as Zero

Lelouch got the punishment Suzaku wanted for himself and Suzaku will have to wear Zero's mask for the rest of his life. I thought this ending was as bittersweet as I expected it to be, and a great - if awfully depressing - way to end their relationship. It goes well with them working together in the end and realizing both methods had their pros and cons.

[FreiheitFirewolf]

Lelouch got the punishment Suzaku wanted for himself and Suzaku will have to wear Zero's mask for the rest of his life. I thought this ending was as bittersweet as I expected it to be, and a great - if awfully depressing - way to end their relationship. It goes well with them working together in the end and realizing both methods had their pros and cons.

In the Suzaku case, live with the Zero mask is part of punish his sins. suzaku want die, but continue living is punishment, living as his worst enemy is a major punishment.

PD: excuse me for my bad english

[morbosfist]

I like how we hardly ever get to talk about Suzaku himself in this thread. Anyone up for some discussion about the guy? I personally found it very interesting that the one character who wanted to die found himself condemned to live on in the end. Also, I would pay to know what were the original plans for his connection to the Geass. If I had money, that is.Good an excuse as any to make a big post, I suppose. I found that kind of annoying, and though it's more than likely the pessimist in me talking, I believe that Lelouch going Suzaku had at least something to do with giving his revenge for Euphy. The last words we hear from Suzaku are "Euphy's murderer" then they're best buds a month later. Suzaku's all gung-ho about their promise, too, which is rather odd considering the end result. I don't think he really grasped the reality of what he was doing until he actually did it.

Now for the actual big post to spark some discussion. I'm going to outline things episode by episode, at least the important ones anyway. We'll start at the beginning.

Stage 1, for the most part, actually paints Suzaku rather positively. He isn't willing to kill in cold blood, wants the violence to end, and is willing to argue (to an extent) with his superiors. Still, even here, there are things which just annoy me. To start, he comes across the gas canister and sees a "terrorist" with his back turned. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt here, since the resolution on that helmet is just good enough to tell that the man's unarmed. Never mind that someone else, likely armed, may be in the truck, he spinzakus across the room to pin the man. His death wish aside, what I find more annoying is his declaration upon doing so (phrase may vary, this is the gist): "Don't kill any more." The Britannian army is actively massacring the entire ghetto all around him, which Clovis gladly announces, and he has the nerve to tell this to the terrorists being hunted by them. At least Lelouch sets him straight, somewhat.

Move to Stage 2. Suzaku gets the Lancelot and sets out to stop the terrorists, who are keeping the ghetto from being massacred. because he's following orders, I would give him the benefit of the doubt here, but he believes that the fighting will stop once he beats them. This is just sheer stupidity or willful ignorance, because he damn near gets everyone killed. Thank Lelouch for the save, even though it probably justifies Suzaku in his mind.

The next few episodes don't really have much to note. Stage 4 when he gets rescued I'll let go. After all, he's a rules guy and Zero isn't, though I still find his idea to catch Zero when he's considered a criminal himself laughable. We'll go to Stage 8. This really only serves to highlight his death wish. Run into tunnel with Knightmare-killing rifle? Sure thing, boss. Since they say he has about a 50/50 shot, I'll chalk this up to arrogance on his part. Kallen has a problem with this, too, as do most ace pilots it seems. It just gets worse for Suzaku as time passes. More on that later, though. Zero blows up the hotel and Suzaku goes diving in. What exactly does he think he's going to do? He can at best hold two people a hand.

Now Stage 11. Since Suzaku really does nothing but fight here, I only use this as an example of how he reacts badly when confronted with the unexpected. Kallen comes out in her shiny new Guren, dodges a few attacks, and Suzaku gets desperate quick. Strategy jsut goes out the window and he starts throwing everything he can at her to no avail. That surprise cliff break is the only thing that saved him. She'd have maimed him otherwise.

Stage 13 with the JLF tanker, I have to give Suzaku credit for getting what was happening right away, if only because he figures Zero is a bastard and would do it. Him beating up Zero's weaker Knightmare I also don't hold against him. The beginning of Stage 14, which I'll keep here since it can be considered an extension of the previous episode, shows the arrogance again. Suzaku simply doesn't know when to quit. Kallen melts through his sword and dodges his attack, then retreats, and he wants her to come back.

Stage 17 I bring up not for the battle, he was outgunned like crazy after all, but his chat with Tohdoh. He's literally sweating having to execute his mentor, but come the breakout he's a self-righteous bastard. I don't care what the reason is, asking someone if they want to live that badly when they're breaking out of prison while waiting for execution is just fucked up, Zero's help in doing so or not. Tohdoh, for his part, encourages Suzaku to stand by his beliefs. What I find annoying is that Suzaku's plan amounts to pretty much what he says in the episode: "If I follow the rules I can get them to trust me." Taking into account the rest of the season, this shows quite simply that Suzaku expects handouts. He plays nice and people give him stuff. There's no long term plan, no thought on how to make change, just handouts, which combined with the fact that he's actively fighting the people working for the same cause and looking for a way to die all the more annoying.

Stage 18 is where Suzaku gets his curse, and here's where his death wish actually gets harmful. In one move not only is he going to sacrifice his life, and by extension any chance he had of making Japan free, but is going to do it while killing the man leading the same cause in a different manner. He's essentially crushing any hope of freedom in one move. He earned every bit of that curse. I'll mix Stage 19 in with this, since Kallen doesn't buy his BS and doesn't believe he gets to decide what's right and wrong.

To cover the last bit of the season all at once, much of Suzaku's behavior here is excusable. Zero did kill his girl, after all. Rather, this is where whatever moral center he had starts decaying.

Now to R2. We start at Turn 3, where he actually gets some focus. Here he's conquering the EU, ostensibly just because he wants to since they mention no one's ordering him to fight. While I could have accepted his idea of working within the system before, this is just inexcusable. He's willing to strip the freedom of other countries, and as his conversation with Luciano and the picture dramas show, has been doing so for some time, while trying to free Japan. Such a narrow-minded focus is just ridiculous. Couple this with his plan to become Knight of One, which since he hasn't thought of simply taking the rank in a duel or something is probably going to take him decades to reach, and I just can't respect his idea to work within the system. After all, he clearly doesn't give a crap about anyone else's freedom.

Now to Turn 5. The only thing worth mention here is using Nunnally against Lelouch, made worse by the fact that he's lying to her to do so. If this were a one-time thing, I'd understand, but he does it again later, which I'll get to.

Turn 6 comes along and we see that Suzaku clearly has no qualms about killing anymore. He tries to gun down a stationary Kallen, premeditated no less, with a Hadron blast. At least he's trying to protect Nunnally, though that doesn't quite excuse such ruthless behavior. Also another example of reacting badly. Kallen comes in the flying Guren and he's surprised when she dodges him.

Turn 7 is another example of reacting badly. Suzaku decides he needs as much dakka as he can get to take out the Black Knights solitary sub and is shocked when his fleet is capsized. Gino has to take charge. Then Zero comes and he has something he can shoot, at least until Zero foils that by joining the SAZ.

Turn 8 shows the death wish by an Eleven with a knife of all things. He's usually so picky about how he dies. At least he isn't willing to sign the man's life away, though he doesn't mind Anya doing it. Zero starts negotiating and Suzaku is very unwilling to compromise. Good thing there are others around, because he does not make a good politician. Made even worse by the fact that once the SAZ comes around and Zero pulls his "I am Sparticus" routine, Suzaku is willing to shoot the lot of them. If it weren't for Romeyer's oddly symbolic pose, he'd have fallen off the slippery slope then and there.

I can't really think of anything in Turns 9 and 10. This is what you'd expect from a soldier, after all. What happens in 11 is what matters. He goes out of his way to have Kallen brought to the Avalon, and there can't be much more reason to do this than to spite Zero. He can't beat her, after all, so he has to sneak in behind Zero's back and grab her.

Turns 14, 15, and 16 really fit into one point, which is how he behaves when Shirley dies. "Lelouch must have done it," is what his thinking amounts to. Does he take the logical approach and confront Lelouch? No, he tries to drug Kallen and just barely avoids raping the dog when he decides that this dumbass behavior somehow equates to Geass, which is made all the more ridiculous by the fact that he had no problem with the Emperor using Geass to mindwipe Lelouch. The seven-hit combo he gets for his dickery is epic. It's only after he realizes how much of an idiot he's been that he decides to do what he should have done in the first place.

Turn 17 is where we get him using Nunnally against Lelouch again. Lelouch arranges this secret meeting between them to keep Nunnally safe. Suzaku asks all these questions about the things Lelouch has done, bitching in particular about his curse (this is important for later), and Lelouch admits to doing everything for selfish reasons. He even begs Suzaku to help. Hell, Suzaku even gets that Lelouch is lying. What does he decide to do? Make Lelouch give up his war. The one-sided sacrifice in this deal is astounding. He wants Lelouch to fuck up his entire alliance and more or less abandon Kallen just to keep Nunnally safe but still nowhere within his reach. The sad part is that by using Nunnally he actually gets Lelouch to agree. Thank god for Schneizel screwing that up.

This part covers parts of Turns 16 and 17, but it's easier to focus it all on 18. Suzaku's attempted reconciliation with Lelouch is ruined by Schneizel. Does he try to explain this? No. He just screams at Lelouch mindlessly when he escapes then agrees to carry a nuke onto the battlefield. That Nina told him exactly what it does and who he was using it against beforehand makes it that much worse. Add on to that the fact that his curse, which he just complained to Lelouch about, makes him liable to fire the damn thing if he gets into a pinch. He probably didn't consider this, though. He doesn't use the nuke by himself and just fights, then in comes Kallen in uber-Guren. Here's where the arrogance really gets him. Many dead grunts and one Vampire KoR later, Suzaku decides to Hadron blast Zero and tells Kallen to get out of the way, probably hoping she goes down when she blocks. That doesn't work, so he does the only logical thing: spam the attack she blocked like nothing and hope something comes of it. "Even if I bring her into close combat" shows even more stupidity. He wants to fight close up the thing built to one-shot kill at close range. The rest is history. He gets near-death, gives up, Tokyo Settlement goes bye bye.

Turn 20 comes along and Suzaku has decided to take a page from Lelouch's book, only in the dumbest manner possible. Suggesting a coup d'etat in front of not one but two members of the royal family, another KoR, his support team, and Kanon takes either mucho cajones or a complete lack of common sense. Probably both in this case. At least Bismarck gives him a good "you suck" speech for his trouble.

The last bit of the season I bunch together again, since there's not much to complain about. A near-tang and a month later, Suzaku has decided to help his friend troll the world into playing nice by getting himself killed as a tyrant. He's all for the plan at the start, enough so to make the claim that he'll eliminate Lelouch's weaknesses to get it done. Even when on the "good" side, he manages to say things that make him look like he'll rape the dog. At least he doesn't act that way. Finally the time comes and he realizes what he's doing and cries about it. Better late than never. Suzaku's now stuck as Zero for a lifetime, literally unable to just let himself die.

Damn, I almost never write that much.

[Eliarine]

Why, of course what I really meant by wanting to discuss Suzaku himself was that I craved an in-depth analysis on how he is obviously dumb, useless, fiendish, vile, despicable, and oh-so-inferior to pretty perfect Kallen, because we clearly haven't had enough of this in this thread up til now.

Thanks, Morbosfist, for reminding me why the one thread I should avoid at all costs is the one about my favorite character.

In before joyful claims of victory for I give up in the face of logic.

[morbosfist]

Why, of course what I really meant by wanting to discuss Suzaku himself was that I craved an in-depth analysis on how he is obviously dumb, useless, fiendish, vile, despicable, and oh-so-inferior to pretty perfect Kallen, because we clearly haven't had enough of this in this thread up til now.

Thanks, Morbosfist, for reminding me why the one thread I should avoid at all costs is the one about my favorite character.

In before joyful claims of victory for I give up in the face of logic.Have to start somewhere.

[X_Danny_X]

Again, obviously you aren't watching the battle. Her arm was fine. The focusing rods for the radiant surge are what broke. She had two good arms and two good legs. Suzaku was skating on a stump and using one arm for balance.




im still wondering why even bring this up? this is actually making Suzaku look good since Kallen couldnt even capitalized and he even the score and she went down first.

dude, she was being pushed back, Suzaku immediately took care of her arm, cut it off and disable the Guren while Kallen landed the blow to stop the Lancelot. Kallen took out his leg and then he took out her main arm.

in the end they blasted took each other out. she went first.

he was not desperate. It was a beautiful calculated combo move that took her out of commission. both got their shots in.

stop this ridiculous nick picking because all of this happen in seconds and in lightning speed.





No, their machines went down at the same time. Suzaku's just didn't fall over.


her Guren was disable first! You saw it shut down right away and completely. Then you slowly see Suzaku's Lancelot shutting down. Her shut down first, then his, then it goes down for the count, then his goes. It went in perfect order.



Except Gino caught her, so she's not dead. You want to take away Kallen's saving grace yet leave Suzaku's. Neither could fight, period. Suzaku had no mech and neither did Kallen, and depending on the distance of that fall she could have woken up and ejected, not to mention some other ally noticing her and catching her.


do you understand "What If" scenarios??? I completed put a "what if" with no interference. in the end she would of been dead. there is no way in hell she would of survived a fall that high in the end without help. she would of drown in the end. and no, she unconscious, there is no way in the hell she would of gotten up from that.



Watch the fucking fight. I'm tired of saying it. You're just making shit up now. She had both arms, one of which he knocked off with his last attack. He was trying not to get hit and failed. Suzaku did not need to die in this specific battle. There are any number of ways to do it after. You're just trying to belittle Kallen, when the official site outright says she won, by claiming Suzaku planned this.


LOL, cursing huh? you are the one saying he was desperate. both landed their blows and taking each other out.

first his leg goes, just because it goes doesnt make him desperate like you claim. He then took out her blasted main arm, it was one blasted move after another between the two. in the end both machines were done for.

your just trying to downgrade Suzaku for hatred for the hatred for him, coming up with stupid nick picking that make and try to create crap that isnt there.

you are blasted seeing things that are not there and making up shit as you go.

LOL, at the official site. the official site hasnt been updated since Turn 24. unless i am missing something, please post the link then.

the real official site is not from the writers themselves anyway. the true source is the writers themselves and the anime. until i hear it from them, im not changing anything.



That arm was keeping him upright. If he had moved it, he'd have fallen over. Your point fails.



dear lord..........shakes head a thounsand times....anothe fine example of you making shit up as you and claiming stuff that isnt really there...rewatch it again, it was just floating off the ground...you are mistaking the sparks from the partial leg and think it was from the hand. the hand was free.

watch it over and and over again, the hand is not touching the ground. it is floating. both machines are moving backwards and not in an unsteady motion. there was no danger of falling off for him like you said at that specific moment in time.




This has absolutely nothing to do with their fight. Suzaku was declared dead because people thought him dead. Him being dead was part of the plan. Him getting his ass kicked and nearly dying for real was not. There are no hints aside from him being alive. You're just making this up to suit your argument. He was trying to win and failed.


look at you. "getting his ass kicked" the battle end in a draw. no way in this fight was one sided. never did i claim that suzaku won the mech battle. how many times did i say it ended in a draw.

lol, and Kallen was trying to get pass Suzaku and get to Lelouch. She never accomplished both. she failed miserably on both counts. She didnt stop Suzaku, She didnt reach Lelouch, she didnt stop Lelouch, and she didn't stop Zero R.



Kallen stopped Tohdoh because she understood what they were trying to do. Jeremiah is much taller than Lelouch while Suzaku is the same size, plus there's the fact that it's their promise, not Jeremiah's. Point 6 is completely meaningless. All this crap has nothing to do with their fight. It's just what they did after.

Again meaningless to the fight.


your crazy if it didnt had nothing to do with it. how did you think everyone thought he died and it was kept that way and then given the hints helps prove that he needed to fake his death and fool people.

yeah kallen understood, and help keep it that way.



Jerimiah isnt that much bigger. and who cares about that. nobody is even going to notice that while Zero is there stack in the middle running at lightling speed straight to Lelouch.


If it were an opportunity, he wouldn't be trying to win. Your logic fails horribly.


lol, he was trying to fake his death, at the very end he allowed it to happen with that last shot. again, the arm was free, it was not sliding on the ground to keep his balance.


When she slashed C.C.'s lancelot across the chest, it exploded. Burying her fist in the Albion's chest did the same. Not to mention the fact that the Albion shut down, so he wouldn't be self-destructing one way or the other.

not that i am disagreeing, it is the most likely scenario. like i said, it was theory.

[morbosfist]

im still wondering why even bring this up? this is actually making Suzaku look good since Kallen couldnt even capitalized and he even the score and she went down first.Yes, she did capitalize, otherwise the Guren's arm wouldn't be stuck in the Albion's chest. Suzaku used a last-ditch attack and connected but still got blown up.

dude, she was being pushed back, Suzaku immediately took care of her arm, cut it off and disable the Guren while Kallen landed the blow to stop the Lancelot. Kallen took out his leg and then he took out her main arm.You're seeing things. Suzaku was the one being pushed back, not Kallen. He couldn't even move and was just sliding. He tried to avoid getting hit and failed.

in the end they blasted took each other out. she went first.They went at the same time. Suzaku just took longer to explode.

he was not desperate. It was a beautiful calculated combo move that took her out of commission. both got their shots in.Oh please, now you're not even trying to see things logically. He didn't plan that move. He got beat and fired a desperate shot at her head and arm. He did not plan to get his leg knocked off.

stop this ridiculous nick picking because all of this happen in seconds and in lightning speed.Then its a good thing there's the ability to go frame by frame and actually see what happened.

her Guren was disable first! You saw it shut down right away and completely. Then you slowly see Suzaku's Lancelot shutting down. Her shut down first, then his, then it goes down for the count, then his goes. It went in perfect order.His shut down second but he was out of the fight at the same time as her. knock it off with this perfect crap, because you're obviously not paying attention to his reactions.

do you understand "What If" scenarios??? I completed put a "what if" with no interference. in the end she would of been dead. there is no way in hell she would of survived a fall that high in the end without help. she would of drown in the end. and no, she unconscious, there is no way in the hell she would of gotten up from that.Last I checked, being unconscious is not a permanent state. No, she would not have survived a fall of that height. Suzaku should have frozen to death. They both got away. You're just trying to take away her lucky break and let him keep his.

first his leg goes, just because it goes doesnt make him desperate like you claim. He then took out her blasted main arm, it was one blasted move after another between the two. in the end both machines were done for.Look at his face. He was desperate, because she had him on the ropes. The harkens were all he had left. They may have disabled each other but that doesn't change the substance of the attacl.

your just trying to downgrade Suzaku for hatred for the hatred for him, coming up with stupid nick picking that make and try to create crap that isnt there.

you are blasted seeing things that are not there and making up shit as you go.Likewise with you for Kallen. You're trying to make Suzaku seem like he was collected the entire fight when he clearly wasn't. The difference is I can back up my assertions.

dear lord..........shakes head a thounsand times....anothe fine example of you making shit up as you and claiming stuff that isnt really there. or did you get this from Blades post??...rewatch it again, it was just floating off the ground...you are mistaking the sparks from the partial leg and think it was from the hand. the hand was free.

watch it over and and over again, the hand is not touching the ground. it is floating. both machines are moving backwards and not in an unsteady motion. there was no danger of falling off for him like you said at that specific moment in time.The hand wasn't on the ground but it was keeping him balanced. If he had moved it to block, the weight would have shifted and he'd fall on his side. Kallen's machine is leaning forward to strike, by the way, even if its still sliding back.

look at you. "getting his ass kicked" the battle end in a draw. no way in this fight was one sided. never did i claim that suzaku won the mech battle. how many times did i say it ended in a draw.Just because he managed to end it in a draw does not negate the very real chance of dying it put him in. It was luck that it ended the way it did.

lol, and Kallen was trying to get pass Suzaku and get to Lelouch. She never accomplished both. she failed miserably on both counts. She didnt stop Suzaku, She didnt reach Lelouch, she didnt stop Lelouch, and she didn't stop Zero R.Suzaku couldn't fight anymore. She succeeded in stopping him. She just didn't get past him.

your crazy if it didnt had nothing to do with it. how did you think everyone thought he died and it was kept that way and then given the hints helps prove that he needed to fake his death and fool people.

yeah kallen understood, and help keep it that way.It has nothing to do with the fight because it's merely the things that Lelouch did to cover up that he survived. It doesn't mean it was part of the plan to have him lose as he did.

Jerimiah isnt that much bigger. and who cares about that. nobody is even going to notice that while Zero is there stack in the middle running at lightling speed straight to Lelouch.They would notice after the fact. He's big enough for people to notice.

lol, he was trying to fake his death, at the very end he allowed it to happen with that last shot. again, the arm was free, it was not sliding on the ground to keep his balance.He did not allow it. He attacked and got hit anyway. He couldn't attack and block at the same time.

[Freya]

@morbosfist

holy crap dude. Still in CG thread? Go watch some other anime and stuff man lol.

Suzaku owns all. Physically.

[X_Danny_X]

Yes, she did capitalize, otherwise the Guren's arm wouldn't be stuck in the Albion's chest. Suzaku used a last-ditch attack and connected but still got blown up.


no, in captilize in winning the fight. she couldn't do it. the way you made it look like Suzaku was desperate. she couldn't read his moves and got her ass stopped.

like i said to you before, they both just exchanged blows one after another. quit you nick picking. that is all she wrote in those last seconds of battle.



You're seeing things. Suzaku was the one being pushed back, not Kallen. He couldn't even move and was just sliding backwards. He tried to avoid getting hit and failed.



lol, Suzaku and Kallen collided. the impact pushed her back. then they proceeded in disable each other mechas. why bring it up. you are proving nothing and you are trolling.
They went at the same time. Suzaku just took longer to explode.


Oh please, now you're not even trying to see things logically. He didn't plan that move. He got beat back and fired a desperate shot at her head and arm. He did not plan to get his leg knocked off.


no there is no evidence that is what a desperate move other than your blasted opinion that has no water to hold it up.


Then its a good thing there's the ability to go frame by frame and actually see what happened.


by all means, you will see his hand above the ground. you were just fooled in too think it was on the ground because it looked like sparks were coming from it, the sparks were from the broken leg.


His shut down second but he was out of the fight at the same time as her. knock it off with this perfect crap, because you're obviously not paying attention to his reactions.


lol, im just taking a page out of your book. you come with your nickping i come with mind. in the end the fight was a draw. nobody won the fight. understand!

but at least Suzaku accomplished what he said out to do and Kallen didnt. the battle was a draw and Suzaku won the war. Kallen said it herself that it was time to settle the rivalry. it was settled. she lost the war in the end.


Last I checked, being unconscious is not a permanent state. No, she would not have survived a fall of that height. Suzaku should have frozen to death. They both got away. You're just trying to take away her lucky break and let him keep his.


lol, i dont even know why you bother bringing this scenario. suzaku survived without help. she didnt. she got the worst end of this draw that is what i am telling you. could of, would of, but it didnt happen to Suzaku. so live with it.


Look at his face. He was desperate, because she had him on the ropes. The harkens were all he had left. They may have disabled each other but that doesn't change the substance of the attacl.


for the love of god, they both exchange blows back and forth. one hit the other while the other hit back. it followed that sequence. there is nothing more there.




Likewise with you for Kallen. You're trying to make Suzaku seem like he was collected the entire fight when he clearly wasn't. The difference is I can back up my assertions.


it was a battle back and forth. if i was trying to make Kallen look bad, i would of responded with something so bias like saying she was losing and getting her ass kicked by Suzaku, you know, what you said Kallen was doing to Suzaku. and man, i fell out laughing when i read that

and you back up your assertions with nothing and stupid make believe crap. i swear you are just trolling and just arguing for the sake of arguing.


The hand wasn't on the ground but it was keeping him balanced. If he had moved it to block, the weight would have shifted and he'd fall on his side. Kallen's machine is moving forward to strike, by the way.


oh man now this huh? LMAO!!!!!!!!!!it would make more sense if he was using it for balance that it was on the ground creating friction then floating. i mean it was just slightly off the ground.

oh god why do i bother. :eyespin::eyespin::eyespin::eyespin:


Just because he managed to end it in a draw does not negate the very real chance of dying it put him in. It was luck that it ended the way it did.


lol, a chance of dying is present everytime you go to war. that doesnt unprove anything what i said. yeah, i guess it was luck that he cut off her main arm of attack, i guess it was luck that he landed a straight shot to the face that out her machine, i guess it was luck that they both fought to a standstill, i guess it was luck that both machines were stopped. lol



Suzaku couldn't fight anymore. She succeeded in stopping him. She just didn't get past him.


well let me take a page out of your book and nick pick. she stopped the machine while he stopped her machine and herself, she didnt stopped Suzaku. he went on to do Zero R. she went to a jail cell along with the other Bok.

she didnt accomplished what she said to do. to stop Lelouch and Suzaku and thus preventing the Zero R. plan unknown to her. while he the opposite bwahaaha




It has nothing to do with the fight because it's merely the things that Lelouch did to cover up that he survived. It doesn't mean it was part of the plan to have him lose as he did.


lol lose as he did? the fight ended in a draw you moron. not lose, but to make him believe that to everyone that he lost and died which he didnt. the one putting the Zero mask would lose his identity.


They would notice after the fact. He's big enough for people to notice.

He did not allow it. He attacked and got hit anyway. He couldn't attack and block at the same time.

please, do you really think the writers would make such a small detail like that be notice or even bother with it. i mean, according to you , a bigger detail event was Suzaku not freezing to death. they never bother explaining that.

really please, its an anime they would not bother with that kind of crap. sweet jesus


dear god, eventing things and thinking of stuff that im sure the writers wouldn't even bother noticing.


man, my head hurts for reading all that nonsense, im done for now.

[morbosfist]

no, in captilize in winning the fight. she couldn't do it. the way you made it look like Suzaku was desperate. she couldn't read his moves and got her ass stopped.

like i said to you before, they both just exchanged blows one after another. quit you nick picking. that is all she wrote in those last seconds of battle.Saying they exchanged blows is like saying water is wet. It means nothing because it's obvious.

lol, Suzaku and Kallen collided. the impact pushed her back. then they proceeded in disable each other mechas. why bring it up. you are proving nothing and you are trolling.Not trolling, arguing, since you seem to think Suzaku must have planned it as such.

no there is no evidence that is what a desperate move other than your blasted opinion that has no water to hold it up.His face says it. Kick failed, he had nothing but the harkens.

by all means, you will see his hand above the ground. you were just fooled in too think it was on the ground because it looked like sparks were coming from it, the sparks were from the broken leg.His hand was above the ground, but it was still balancing him. The weight was on his right side. Blocking would have knocked him over and his attack would have missed its mark.

lol, im just taking a page out of your book. you come with your nickping i come with mind. in the end the fight was a draw. nobody won the fight. understand!Not what we're arguing about.

but at least Suzaku accomplished what he said out to do and Kallen didnt. the battle was a draw and Suzaku won the war. Kallen said it herself that it was time to settle the rivalry. it was settled. she lost the war in the end.And Suzaku had no way of stopping anyone else. He succeeded through failure. If anyone else had decided to attack, there'd be no stopping them.

lol, i dont even know why you bother bringing this scenario. suzaku survived without help. she didnt. she got the worst end of this draw that is what i am telling you. could of, would of, but it didnt happen to Suzaku. so live with it.Help or not, she also survived. You're just trying to take that away to give Suzaku the better position. It's not going to work. Both lived, and she still had a repairable Knightmare.

for the love of god, they both exchange blows back and forth. one hit the other while the other hit back. it followed that sequence. there is nothing more there.There is if you bother to watch.

it was a battle back and forth. if i was trying to make Kallen look bad, i would of responded with something so bias like saying she was losing and getting her ass kicked by Suzaku, you know, what you said Kallen was doing to Suzaku. and man, i fell out laughing when i read that

and you back up your assertions with nothing and stupid make believe crap. i swear you are just trolling and just arguing for the sake of arguing.This is getting nowhere now. I back my points up with their dialog and body language. you're just making assumptions.

oh man now this huh? LMAO!!!!!!!!!!it would make more sense if he was using it for balance that it was on the ground creating friction then floating. i mean it was just slightly off the ground.Balance doesn't require his hand being on the ground. It just needed to even out the weight.

lol, a chance of dying is present everytime you go to war. that doesnt unprove anything what i said. yeah, i guess it was luck that he cut off her main arm of attack, i guess it was luck that he landed a straight shot to the face that out her machine, i guess it was luck that they both fought to a standstill, i guess it was luck that both machines were stopped. lolIt was luck the way it ended. The moves within don't change that. Suzaku happened to end up in a position where he could escape without being seen. It's not something he set up.

well let me take a page out of your book and nick pick. she stopped the machine while he stopped her machine and herself, she didnt stopped Suzaku. he went on to do Zero R. she went to a jail cell along with the other Bok.

she didnt accomplished what she said to do. to stop Lelouch and Suzaku and thus preventing the Zero R. plan unknown to her. while he the opposite bwahaahaAnd this has nothing to do with him planning to lose as he did. He managed to escape, so what? He still lost his machine.

lol lose as he did? the fight ended in a draw you moron. not lose, but to make him believe that to everyone that he lost and died which he didnt. the one putting the Zero mask would lose his identity.Loss is loss even if the other person goes with you.

please, do you really think the writers would make such a small detail like that be notice or even bother with it. i mean, according to you , a bigger detail event was Suzaku not freezing to death. they never bother explaining that.Yes, they would bother, since Suzaku and Lelouch are the same height and thus animating Zero wouldn't make sense with a guy taller than the character.

[Dean_the_Young]

Why, of course what I really meant by wanting to discuss Suzaku himself was that I craved an in-depth analysis on how he is obviously dumb, useless, fiendish, vile, despicable, and oh-so-inferior to pretty perfect Kallen, because we clearly haven't had enough of this in this thread up til now.

Thanks, Morbosfist, for reminding me why the one thread I should avoid at all costs is the one about my favorite character.

In before joyful claims of victory for I give up in the face of logic.
Why Eliarine, do you doubt the integrity and objectivity of a post who's admitted bias extends from the begining to the end, cherry picks any number of points that supports the writer's own opinion but then ignores and marginalizes any of those pesky cannonical incidents, expositions, and explanations that oppose an already-decided view?

Why with an attitude like that, some people might think you can be objective. You certainly could never be journalist with an attitude like that! Leave the explanation of what is to the professionals, please.

[Goldarmy]

The last words we hear from Suzaku are "Euphy's murderer" then they're best buds a month later. Suzaku's all gung-ho about their promise, too, which is rather odd considering the end result.

What do you find odd? Basically the only reason Suzaku postponed killing Lelouch was his promise to fix everything with Zero Requiem. He reminded this fact to Lelouch with a punch after Nunnaly's reappearance.

I don't think he really grasped the reality of what he was doing until he actually did it.
He knew what he was doing, as was Kallen. She loved him, hated him,and was going to kill him. He loved him (not that way:)), hated him and finally killed him.

To start, he comes across the gas canister and sees a "terrorist" with his back turned. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt here, since the resolution on that helmet is just good enough to tell that the man's unarmed. Never mind that someone else, likely armed, may be in the truck, he spinzakus across the room to pin the man.
Suzaku is a super soldier. This was established throughout series.

His death wish aside, what I find more annoying is his declaration upon doing so (phrase may vary, this is the gist): "Don't kill any more."
Not suprising since his guilt on both killing father and failing stop Japanese getting killed he will try to stop violence.

The Britannian army is actively massacring the entire ghetto all around him, which Clovis gladly announces, and he has the nerve to tell this to the terrorists being hunted by them.
They are terrorists hunted for the acts of terror they commit. Though this rises a question were Suzaku even aware of Clovis order being in deep underground at the time?

This is just sheer stupidity or willful ignorance, because he damn near gets everyone killed.
It is a mixture of both. First part I will deal later, second is simple ignorance about the nature of guerilla warfare.

After all, he's a rules guy and Zero isn't, though I still find his idea to catch Zero when he's considered a criminal himself laughable.
Not anymore laughable than catching V or Joker.

Zero blows up the hotel and Suzaku goes diving in. What exactly does he think he's going to do? He can at best hold two people a hand.
People don't think in situations like that, I mean what would Jesus Yamato would have done in his place? What would Vash the Stampede do?

I don't care what the reason is, asking someone if they want to live that badly when they're breaking out of prison while waiting for execution is just fucked up, Zero's help in doing so or not. Tohdoh, for his part, encourages Suzaku to stand by his beliefs.
The funny part is this; Tohdoh is Suzaku's mentor. And in a role reversal he would probably asking the same question.

What I find annoying is that Suzaku's plan amounts to pretty much what he says in the episode: "If I follow the rules I can get them to trust me." Taking into account the rest of the season, this shows quite simply that Suzaku expects handouts. He plays nice and people give him stuff. There's no long term plan, no thought on how to make change, just handouts, which combined with the fact that he's actively fighting the people working for the same cause and looking for a way to die all the more annoying.
You have found one of the biggest flaws of Suzaku. He doesn't expect handouts. He is the epitome of Xanatos Sucker. He is a strategic idiot. The only person with less common sense than him is Nina. He is the guy that will try to sneak into the room of Fistandantilatus to kill him in his sleep. His plans doesn't go any complex than that. The people who hate Suzaku would still hate him even if he were the rebel and Leleouch was the one trying to change Brittania from within.

In one move not only is he going to sacrifice his life, and by extension any chance he had of making Japan free, but is going to do it while killing the man leading the same cause in a different manner.
Not only does said man didn't care about Japan at that point, the fault that they were both about to be killed was his. And his solution to get them out came later to take big bite.

since Kallen doesn't buy his BS and doesn't believe he gets to decide what's right and wrong.
Which is kinda hypocritical for Kallen since she also does the same thing.

Zero did kill his girl, after all.
No Zero didn't just kill Euphy. He destroyed her in every way possible. The only thing left out was a Griffith style rape. Such an act would fill the heart of a normal man with terrible hatred, and this happens to Suzaku of all people. This is very important because people simply ignore Suzaku's hatred. Until the end of 23 Suzaku was an enemy of Zero, afterwards he became nemesis.

Rather, this is where whatever moral center he had starts decaying.
And people cheer at a man being horribly twisted by hatred.

He's willing to strip the freedom of other countries, and as his conversation with Luciano and the picture dramas show, has been doing so for some time, while trying to free Japan.
His goal and those of Black Knights was never about saving rest of the world.

Such a narrow-minded focus is just ridiculous.
Not really, people in general don't think about the big picture.

After all, he clearly doesn't give a crap about anyone else's freedom.
An attitude shared by the rest of human race.

The only thing worth mention here is using Nunnally against Lelouch, made worse by the fact that he's lying to her to do so. If this were a one-time thing, I'd understand, but he does it again later, which I'll get to.
You are forgetting that Suzaku hates Zero with a burning passion. And he isn't happy about using Nunnally.

He tries to gun down a stationary Kallen, premeditated no less, with a Hadron blast. At least he's trying to protect Nunnally, though that doesn't quite excuse such ruthless behavior.
Kallen isn't an innocent victim. She is still following Zero blindly despite knowing what a monster he is.

Suzaku decides he needs as much dakka as he can get to take out the Black Knights solitary sub and is shocked when his fleet is capsized. Gino has to take charge.
Suzaku Kururugi is a strategic idiot.

Zero starts negotiating and Suzaku is very unwilling to compromise.
Suzaku hates Zero, he wants to send him to hell personally.

If it weren't for Romeyer's oddly symbolic pose, he'd have fallen off the slippery slope then and there.
No not true. Lets just agree to disagree about this.

He goes out of his way to have Kallen brought to the Avalon, and there can't be much more reason to do this than to spite Zero.
She is a very high ranked member of the terrorist organisation. That itself is reason enough.

"Lelouch must have done it," is what his thinking amounts to.
After what Lelelouch did to Euphemia and his Light Yagami performance why should he think any other way?

Does he take the logical approach and confront Lelouch?
Oh, come on. He couldn't find Lelouch because the guy was in China busy with slaughtering people.

No, he tries to drug Kallen and just barely avoids raping the dog when he decides that this dumbass behavior somehow equates to Geass, which is made all the more ridiculous by the fact that he had no problem with the Emperor using Geass to mindwipe Lelouch.
Why it doesn't equate Geass? Both are acts of strong crushing weak. Of course he has no problem with Emperor's Geass because he is geassing the object of his hate.

What does he decide to do? Make Lelouch give up his war.
Um what? He reminded Lelouch that he had responsibilites to people who follow him.

Does he try to explain this? No.
Does he have any chance to explain himself?

when he escapes then agrees to carry a nuke onto the battlefield. That Nina told him exactly what it does and who he was using it against beforehand makes it that much worse.
He agreed to carry it because he was the only person that wouldn't fire it. Please take a moment to laugh at irony.

Turn 20 comes along and Suzaku has decided to take a page from Lelouch's book, only in the dumbest manner possible.
This is classic strategic insight of Suzaku (or the lack of it) combined with the desire to go out in a blaze of glory. But let's be fair deaths of millions crushed him and he can't even kill himself. Of course the fact Emperor is immortal is just icing to the cake. And the leashes of Schneizel and safety of the world has been entrusted to this guy.

Probably both in this case.
Probably? Definitely both.

At least Bismarck gives him a good "you suck" speech for his trouble.
Best moment of Bismarck.

A near-tang and a month later, Suzaku has decided to help his friend troll the world into playing nice by getting himself killed as a tyrant.
Because only Suzaku is fool enough to think that this is a good plan.

He's all for the plan at the start, enough so to make the claim that he'll eliminate Lelouch's weaknesses to get it done.
Suzaku at this point is a very broken man who has nothing more than his chance at victory.

Suzaku's now stuck as Zero for a lifetime, literally unable to just let himself die.
Until the next season/OVA/Movie

[nuilca]

im just a lurker in these boards but i have decided to make my self present after lurking for like forever.

anyway, i just had to respond. morobofist´s posts dont make any sense.

moborofist, you are just over analyzing and creating things that are not there.

give me a break, saying Suzaku should of die freezing, then coming with Suzaku trying to keep balance with that one arm, etc. i dont know if you try something new to win the arguement since you and Danny have been just rehashing the same info over and over, but if so, then you fail miserably.

my god, do you think the people behind Code Geass would even bother with such things.

Danny is right, you have gone out the deep end and you have to be "on¨" something. you are over analyzing and in a horrible way.

just take it for what we saw. both machines stop working, both were stop, both pilots could no longer fight in their mecha....thus a draw. nothing else nothing more. nobody won.

if Suzaku fans wants to declare a moral victory or won the war here since Kallen never even came close to stopping Suzaku and Lelouch together as she said in the beginning, needed help to survive while Suzaku didnt, didnt stop Suzaku and went on to do what he needed to do to finish Zero R, then fine, you got a good arguement and in fact I do agree with you. however the fights with the mecha was a draw. the mechs were destroyed... it is like one person die in an explosion and the other got shot in the head and lost both its arms, result....both dead.


Danny, i agree with you that Suzaku was the overall winner because of the moral victory growns...so as long as you know that and feel that, just be happy.


unless said otherwise if they decide to work on some other characters, the series has ended. there are other mecha shows. like gudam, full metal panic, etc...watch them lol. try something new instead of rehashing the same info with the same argument.

[Grey Dawn]

Uh, back in season 1 with Jeremiah there was an auto eject system shown. It probably would've thrown Kallen out when it realized it her altitude was dropping faster than a rock. So I don't think she was going to die without help.

Anyways, Suzaku did win a moral victory in that he succeeded in his objective and Kallen did not, but Kallen also won one in that her mech still exist.

And no, I really doubt Suzaku could've stopped her final blow, but didn't to fake his own death. Which Danny seemed to be claiming when he said that Suzaku saw and used this as an opportunity to fake his death.

[morbosfist]

What do you find odd? Basically the only reason Suzaku postponed killing Lelouch was his promise to fix everything with Zero Requiem. He reminded this fact to Lelouch with a punch after Nunnaly's reappearance.

He knew what he was doing, as was Kallen. She loved him, hated him,and was going to kill him. He loved him (not that way:)), hated him and finally killed him.I find it odd that he'd still be so willing to kill his former friend, at least at first. I would assume Lelouch would have set him straight on Euphy's death in that missing month, so it should not be the sort of thing you look forward to.

Suzaku is a super soldier. This was established throughout series.Not my point. He's not bulletproof. It was reckless.

Not suprising since his guilt on both killing father and failing stop Japanese getting killed he will try to stop violence.

They are terrorists hunted for the acts of terror they commit. Though this rises a question were Suzaku even aware of Clovis order being in deep underground at the time?He was outside when Clovis announced it over a PA system. He knew what they were doing. And the terrorists are not the ones doing the killing. They're thieves at the moment, albeit ones with Britannian manufactured poison gas.

It is a mixture of both. First part I will deal later, second is simple ignorance about the nature of guerilla warfare.He's a soldier. One would hope he has at least been trained enough to get the concept.

Not anymore laughable than catching V or Joker.Fundamentally different. Batman is a criminal in the strictest sense, but because he's a vigilante. What he does, though not legally sound, is tolerated. V's a criminal (revolutionary, whatever) being pursued by the authorities. Suzaku is just a criminal at that moment, albeit a framed one. Unless he plans to go vigilante, which he'd never do, he's not exactly in the position to catch any criminal. Zero's admission and Jeremiah's disgrace just got the charges dropped.

People don't think in situations like that, I mean what would Jesus Yamato would have done in his place? What would Vash the Stampede do?Fair enough, though, at least in Vash's case since he's the only one I'm familiar with, he would probably have some sort of a plan.

The funny part is this; Tohdoh is Suzaku's mentor. And in a role reversal he would probably asking the same question.The role reversal somewhat defeats the question, though. Suzaku wouldn't be escaping, at least not of his own volition.

You have found one of the biggest flaws of Suzaku. He doesn't expect handouts. He is the epitome of Xanatos Sucker. He is a strategic idiot. The only person with less common sense than him is Nina. He is the guy that will try to sneak into the room of Fistandantilatus to kill him in his sleep. His plans doesn't go any complex than that. The people who hate Suzaku would still hate him even if he were the rebel and Leleouch was the one trying to change Brittania from within.Ooo, Nina hate, been a while, not that it's unwarranted at this particular point in the story. If Suzaku were a rebel, at the very least it could be said that he's channeling his energy in a slightly more productive way. He just doesn't want to grasp how corrupt this empire is.

Not only does said man didn't care about Japan at that point, the fault that they were both about to be killed was his. And his solution to get them out came later to take big bite.Freeing Japan was part of his plans. As he says at the end of the first season, it's a mutually beneficial relationship. And it's hardly Lelouch's fault they were going to be killed. He couldn't predict Schneizel ordering that Suzaku stay there and die or Hardon raining the area. His solution to get them out was all he had. Suzaku is not a man who listens to reason.

Which is kinda hypocritical for Kallen since she also does the same thing.How so? She's not trying to force her beliefs on anyone. She's fighting for what she believes in. Suzaku does too, but to do it he's forcing the same people he's fighting for to accept his way of thinking.

His goal and those of Black Knights was never about saving rest of the world.

Not really, people in general don't think about the big picture.

An attitude shared by the rest of human race.The Black Knights sought to free Japan, but never at the expense of everyone else. Even Lelouch, in trying to overthrow the Chinese Federation, was doing it a favor by removing the Eunuchs from power. Even if we take out the big picture, even Suzaku cannot believe that the people he's conquering are better off.

You are forgetting that Suzaku hates Zero with a burning passion. And he isn't happy about using Nunnally.Fair enough. As I point out, though, he does it twice.

Kallen isn't an innocent victim. She is still following Zero blindly despite knowing what a monster he is.He wouldn't know this. The point remains that she's immobile while he can fire with impunity.

She is a very high ranked member of the terrorist organisation. That itself is reason enough.They're not terrorists anymore, they're enemy soldiers. They became that the moment they were exiled. Also, as you've pointed out, Suzaku is a strategic idiot. He wouldn't have been thinking about such a thing. All that mattered was taking things from Zero.

After what Lelelouch did to Euphemia and his Light Yagami performance why should he think any other way?Aside from the fact that she committed suicide and Lelouch had just risked his life to safe her? Nothing, nothing at all.

Oh, come on. He couldn't find Lelouch because the guy was in China busy with slaughtering people.He didn't try, so it doesn't matter where Lelouch is.

Why it doesn't equate Geass? Both are acts of strong crushing weak. Of course he has no problem with Emperor's Geass because he is geassing the object of his hate.Geass, for all its power, is benign. People don't remember what happened, and in general harmless questioning goes unnoticed. Refrain is a seriously harmful drug, as demonstrated by Kallen's mother. Suzaku would know this.

Um what? He reminded Lelouch that he had responsibilites to people who follow him.When? He told him to make his lies true and end the war. That would screw up Lelouch's alliance any way you look at it, because they outright ordered the Black Knights to take Japan, broadcast worldwide no less.

Does he have any chance to explain himself?The whole of their battle over Tokyo he could have tried. He didn't.

This is classic strategic insight of Suzaku (or the lack of it) combined with the desire to go out in a blaze of glory. But let's be fair deaths of millions crushed him and he can't even kill himself. Of course the fact Emperor is immortal is just icing to the cake. And the leashes of Schneizel and safety of the world has been entrusted to this guy.He didn't know the Emperor was immortal, but fair enough.

[Knight Of Zero]

Suzaku skills/abillity
1.Brute strenght (if there a level I would say L 100)
2.Knightmare battles- One of the best polit there is. He has Lancelot a powerful knightmareframe.
3.Lives geass increase his strenght^
If u think he has anymore skills feel free to express it.

[Spring_sakura111]

He has this aura that could make you both hate him and love him at the same time. But I guess that's doesn't apply on me.

[Attenborough Cortitc]

Wow, looks like we're not allow to post anything positive about Suzaku on his discussion thread because users like morbosfist will swoop in and ruin the discussion. Not a problem on the Kallen thread apparently.

[X_Danny_X]

im just a lurker in these boards but i have decided to make my self present after lurking for like forever.

anyway, i just had to respond. morobofist´s posts dont make any sense.

moborofist, you are just over analyzing and creating things that are not there.

give me a break, saying Suzaku should of die freezing, then coming with Suzaku trying to keep balance with that one arm, etc. i dont know if you try something new to win the arguement since you and Danny have been just rehashing the same info over and over, but if so, then you fail miserably.

my god, do you think the people behind Code Geass would even bother with such things.

Danny is right, you have gone out the deep end and you have to be "on¨" something. you are over analyzing and in a horrible way.

just take it for what we saw. both machines stop working, both were stop, both pilots could no longer fight in their mecha....thus a draw. nothing else nothing more. nobody won.

if Suzaku fans wants to declare a moral victory or won the war here since Kallen never even came close to stopping Suzaku and Lelouch together as she said in the beginning, needed help to survive while Suzaku didnt, didnt stop Suzaku and went on to do what he needed to do to finish Zero R, then fine, you got a good arguement and in fact I do agree with you. however the fights with the mecha was a draw. the mechs were destroyed... it is like one person die in an explosion and the other got shot in the head and lost both its arms, result....both dead.


Danny, i agree with you that Suzaku was the overall winner because of the moral victory growns...so as long as you know that and feel that, just be happy.


unless said otherwise if they decide to work on some other characters, the series has ended. there are other mecha shows. like gudam, full metal panic, etc...watch them lol. try something new instead of rehashing the same info with the same argument.


you know you are right. reading morobofists now crazy analyzable posts are just way out there and are making make go

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b250/Jericho1821/Junk/1181934912890.jpg

and i have been saying what you are saying lol. both machines were stopped, thus a draw and Suzaku being the overall winner. nothing more, nothing less

[Goldarmy]

I find it odd that he'd still be so willing to kill his former friend, at least at first.
He is hating his former friend, nothing odd here.

I would assume Lelouch would have set him straight on Euphy's death in that missing month,

Set straight how? Lelouch geassed Euphy to slaughter people and then shoot her and used the incident to start his rebellion. The facts that he geassed her accidentally, he shot her to put her out misery and he used it so the carnage don't go wasted are let's face it very poor excuses. If he had confessed back at the Black Rebellion maybe Suzaku may have given up the desire to kill, but after end of S1 and Tokyo disaster there isn't room for forgiveness.

Not my point. He's not bulletproof. It was reckless.
We are talking about a guy that dodges bullets, runs on the wall and take outs turrets with a kick. If you are annoyed by this why are you watching action anime in the first place?

They're thieves at the moment, albeit ones with Britannian manufactured poison gas.
Nonsense, they are terrorists. Drop sugary words.

One would hope he has at least been trained enough to get the concept.
Not necessarily. He is a grunt not a military school cadet.

Suzaku is just a criminal at that moment, albeit a framed one. Unless he plans to go vigilante, which he'd never do, he's not exactly in the position to catch any criminal. Zero's admission and Jeremiah's disgrace just got the charges dropped.
Maybe it is just me but I don't see surrendering to authorities dragging an admitted murderer along as vigilantism from a soldier and rules guy like Suzaku.

The role reversal somewhat defeats the question, though.
I meant a whole rove reversal meaning Suzaku trying to escape and Todoh trying to stop him.

Ooo, Nina hate, been a while, not that it's unwarranted at this particular point in the story.
Pointing out a fact isn't hating:).

Suzaku were a rebel, at the very least it could be said that he's channeling his energy in a slightly more productive way.
It would be productive only in the number of dead people, most of whom are Japanese. No his approach to change system wasn't the problem.

He just doesn't want to grasp how corrupt this empire is.
He understands the corruption but for him the way to deal with it is through the system.

Freeing Japan was part of his plans.
As a base of operations for his private vendetta.

As he says at the end of the first season, it's a mutually beneficial relationship.
Sure the surviving cannon fodders will get to live on what remains of Japan, but this is hardly mutual.

And it's hardly Lelouch's fault they were going to be killed.
He got himself and Suzaku inside a huge target.

He couldn't predict Schneizel ordering that Suzaku stay there and die or Hardon raining the area.
Why couldn't he predict that? Just why does he believe that Schneizel won't sacrifice his men?

How so? She's not trying to force her beliefs on anyone.
She has no choice but force her beliefs on people. Because for the guerilla the key weapon, the weapon that matters is people.

Aside from the fact that she committed suicide and Lelouch had just risked his life to safe her?
Because he believes all of it is just a facade that hides a heartless monster. Now we as audience know it isn't true; while the monster is a part of Lelouche; his true self was the one rescuing Shirley. But Suzaku doesn't know this. Is it really hard to grasp tihs for you?

He didn't try, so it doesn't matter where Lelouch is.
Fair enough, I forgot he asked Rivalz after the refrain incident though the question now is what could he have achieved if he found Lelouche?

The Black Knights sought to free Japan, but never at the expense of everyone else.
They aren't interested in much further than freeing Japan either.

Even Lelouch, in trying to overthrow the Chinese Federation, was doing it a favor by removing the Eunuchs from power.
And pointing out the convenient cartoonish villainy of Eunuchs proves what?

Even if we take out the big picture, even Suzaku cannot believe that the people he's conquering are better off.
This is post-Black Rebellion Suzaku we are talking about. He has changed, but only for worse. People outside Japan aren't his concern.

The point remains that she's immobile while he can fire with impunity.
Kallen isn't a helpless civilian in a car. She is inside a war machine willingly to kill people.

They're not terrorists anymore, they're enemy soldiers.
They are enemies of Brittania. Stop portraying Kallen as an innocent civilian victim.

Geass, for all its power, is benign. People don't remember what happened, and in general harmless questioning goes unnoticed. Refrain is a seriously harmful drug, as demonstrated by Kallen's mother.
What a nonsense. There is nothing benign about Geass. It forces people, against their will, to commit acts that are against their nature. This is like claiming date rape with sleep pills is better than actual rape because the victim is unconcious.

He told him to make his lies true and end the war.
No. Suzaku wanted Lelouch to keep with his lie until the very end by ending this war as Zero in a way that brings peace and happiness to everyone.

The whole of their battle over Tokyo he could have tried. He didn't.
He thought warning Lelouch that he had a WMD was more improtant than explaining he didn't betray him.

He didn't know the Emperor was immortal
Yes but this doesn't change the fact that it is the tiniest flaw in his otherwise perfect plan :D.

[Nogitsune]

He is hating his former friend, nothing odd here.

Suzaku didn't hate Lelouch anymore.
I'd even go so far as to say that they were best friends again in the end, but that's just my opinion.
Still, after knowing that he would eventually kill Lelouch, he was certainly able to put his hatred aside.

[Rising Dragon]

The hate is no longer there. Suzaku forgave Lelouch, using Shirley's words on forgiveness (Nothing is unforgivable, you don't want to forgive him, I forgave him a long time ago) as the start. It happened between the 1-month gap between the aborted Ragnarok Junction and Emperor Lelouch's inauguration.

[morbosfist]

Set straight how? Lelouch geassed Euphy to slaughter people and then shoot her and used the incident to start his rebellion. The facts that he geassed her accidentally, he shot her to put her out misery and he used it so the carnage don't go wasted are let's face it very poor excuses. If he had confessed back at the Black Rebellion maybe Suzaku may have given up the desire to kill, but after end of S1 and Tokyo disaster there isn't room for forgiveness.After that kind of accident, there was only one path to take. Euphy wasn't going to get out of the responsibility for that incident.

We are talking about a guy that dodges bullets, runs on the wall and take outs turrets with a kick. If you are annoyed by this why are you watching action anime in the first place?Fair enough, but it doesn't really answer the question. It doesn't change the fact that it's the kind of thing that would get him killed.

Nonsense, they are terrorists. Drop sugary words.That they are, but they aren't the ones slaughtering an entire ghetto full of innocent people at that point.

Not necessarily. He is a grunt not a military school cadet.Even grunts need to be taught.

Maybe it is just me but I don't see surrendering to authorities dragging an admitted murderer along as vigilantism from a soldier and rules guy like Suzaku.Again, fair enough, not that it would have worked.

I meant a whole rove reversal meaning Suzaku trying to escape and Todoh trying to stop him.Suzaku wouldn't is my point. He's even more stubborn than Tohdoh in that regard.

It would be productive only in the number of dead people, most of whom are Japanese. No his approach to change system wasn't the problem.Yes it was, because he had no approach. He was content to wait as long as it takes and kill off his own people all the while. At least if he were a rebel he'd be killing the enemy, not the people he's trying to help.

He understands the corruption but for him the way to deal with it is through the system.No, he doesn't understand the corruption, and if he did he would know that his plan is fundamentally flawed.

As a base of operations for his private vendetta.

Sure the surviving cannon fodders will get to live on what remains of Japan, but this is hardly mutual.Nevertheless, Japan would be free and Zero's strategies insure that most of them would be alive to see it.

He got himself and Suzaku inside a huge target.

Why couldn't he predict that? Just why does he believe that Schneizel won't sacrifice his men?He couldn't predict that it was Schneizel who was showing up, that he had an energy rain of death Knightmare inside his giant flying ship. As for a giant target, it was Suzaku who said, paraphrased, "It looks like a trap, fuck it I'll go in anyway."

She has no choice but force her beliefs on people. Because for the guerilla the key weapon, the weapon that matters is people. Clearly not in this case. They were only a single cell at first acting of their own accord, and even when the Black Knights were formed people have the choice of joining. Suzaku is part of the army occupying his own homeland and putting down people trying to free it.

Because he believes all of it is just a facade that hides a heartless monster. Now we as audience know it isn't true; while the monster is a part of Lelouche; his true self was the one rescuing Shirley. But Suzaku doesn't know this. Is it really hard to grasp this for you?One does not jump to their very probable death like that as an act. Suzaku's just letting his hate blind him to the obvious.

Fair enough, I forgot he asked Rivalz after the refrain incident though the question now is what could he have achieved if he found Lelouche?A number of things. It took him all of five seconds to figure out that the agency was compromised. Lelouch's act wouldn't stand up to scrutiny if he had taken the time to examine it.

They aren't interested in much further than freeing Japan either.True, but nevertheless they aren't willfully damning other countries to get that.

And pointing out the convenient cartoonish villainy of Eunuchs proves what?That he is doing what he does to the benefit of the people, at least as a means to his own end, rather than leaving them worse off.

This is post-Black Rebellion Suzaku we are talking about. He has changed, but only for worse. People outside Japan aren't his concern.Arguably the people inside Japan are barely his concern. He's just doing his Knight of One route as a way to remove the need for Zero.

Kallen isn't a helpless civilian in a car. She is inside a war machine willingly to kill people.

They are enemies of Brittania. Stop portraying Kallen as an innocent civilian victim.Only correcting your portrayal of her as a terrorist, which is incorrect at that juncture. As for the first part, yes she is, but that doesn't change the fact that they were friends at one point yet he has no problem killing her when she is, for all intents and purposes, defenseless against his attack.

What a nonsense. There is nothing benign about Geass. It forces people, against their will, to commit acts that are against their nature. This is like claiming date rape with sleep pills is better than actual rape because the victim is unconcious.Certainly a colorful analogy. Geass makes people act against their nature, but they have no memory of it afterward. All those people Lelouch makes move to other cars in the trains are no worse off for it, and questioning Cornelia didn't exactly do her harm. This is like knocking someone out with a tranquilizer vs doing it with a bat. You get the same result, but one's gonna leave the victim a lot worse off.

No. Suzaku wanted Lelouch to keep with his lie until the very end by ending this war as Zero in a way that brings peace and happiness to everyone.Doesn't change the fact that he wanted the war over, and that meant not attacking Japan. As soon as Lelouch does it Suzaku's all put-off about Lelouch doing it because of him. He wouldn't have accepted anything less.

He thought warning Lelouch that he had a WMD was more improtant than explaining he didn't betray him.Not a very smart move. "I have a weapon no one's ever heard of" vs "Let's talk about this." As soon as Lelouch took off he snapped right back into Zero-must-pay mode, despite everything he learned and was willing to do barely a few hours before.

[Nogitsune]

Not a very smart move. "I have a weapon no one's ever heard of" vs "Let's talk about this." As soon as Lelouch took off he snapped right back into Zero-must-pay mode, despite everything he learned and was willing to do barely a few hours before.

Yep.
They all have their issues.

[Eliarine]

Not a very smart move. "I have a weapon no one's ever heard of" vs "Let's talk about this." As soon as Lelouch took off he snapped right back into Zero-must-pay mode, despite everything he learned and was willing to do barely a few hours before.

Hey, that's funny. Some time ago I pointed out that when Lelouch ordered Kallen to KILL KILL KIIIIIIIIILL Suzaku in episode 18 she didn't even blink or look surprised, which I found a bit disappointing since after her time in prison she was supposed to understand Lelouch better and should have noticed the change.

All I got for my trouble was "wat no no no you can't talk in the midst of battle there's no time for that who knows what can happen in the half second it would take her to blink or think "oh my, Lelouch has changed since the last time I saw him hasn't he"".

But apparently, when you can make Suzaku look stupid, people suddenly have all the time they need to chit chat during battle.

[bladeofdarkness]

might have had something to do with suzaku trying to blast lelouch to pieces with the hadron blaster :heh:
dont forget that kallens role (official, as well as something she sees as a personal calling) is to protect zero
she didnt attack bradly till he actually attacked her and she didnt actually attack suzaku until lelouch told her to take him out
if its his deceision then why would she argue against it (not like she had a reason to try and talk him out of it, suzaku was standing between him and nunnaly)

[Knight Of Zero]

might have had something to do with suzaku trying to blast lelouch to pieces with the hadron blaster :heh:
dont forget that kallens role (official, as well as something she sees as a personal calling) is to protect zero
she didnt attack bradly till he actually attacked her and she didnt actually attack suzaku until lelouch told her to take him out
if its his deceision then why would she argue against it (not like she had a reason to try and talk him out of it, suzaku was standing between him and nunnaly)
That what I call loyalty but this should be discuss in the Kallen tread.

[morbosfist]

Hey, that's funny. Some time ago I pointed out that when Lelouch ordered Kallen to KILL KILL KIIIIIIIIILL Suzaku in episode 18 she didn't even blink or look surprised, which I found a bit disappointing since after her time in prison she was supposed to understand Lelouch better and should have noticed the change.

All I got for my trouble was "wat no no no you can't talk in the midst of battle there's no time for that who knows what can happen in the half second it would take her to blink or think "oh my, Lelouch has changed since the last time I saw him hasn't he"".

But apparently, when you can make Suzaku look stupid, people suddenly have all the time they need to chit chat during battle.Suzaku did have the chance to talk, certainly long enough to try a half-assed threat and complain about the battle being started because of him.

As for Kallen, she was ordered to take him out first. She already had the palm charged ad was going in for the kill when Lelouch yelled at her to kill him. Hardly a point to change ones mind.

[Nogitsune]

So Suzaku isn't perfect and has some serious issues.
Well, that's not really new.

[Attenborough Cortitc]

Suzaku did have the chance to talk, certainly long enough to try a half-assed threat and complain about the battle being started because of him.

As for Kallen, she was ordered to take him out first. She already had the palm charged ad was going in for the kill when Lelouch yelled at her to kill him. Hardly a point to change ones mind.
Uh no Lelouch ordered Kallen to kill him and she took the order seriously how hard is that to admit, don't be posting crap in between actually evidence to support your thesis.

[Attenborough Cortitc]

might have had something to do with suzaku trying to blast lelouch to pieces with the hadron blaster :heh:
dont forget that kallens role (official, as well as something she sees as a personal calling) is to protect zero
she didnt attack bradly till he actually attacked her and she didnt actually attack suzaku until lelouch told her to take him out
if its his deceision then why would she argue against it (not like she had a reason to try and talk him out of it, suzaku was standing between him and nunnaly)
Did you watch the episode at all, if anything Kallen gave the initiative to attack not Suzaku and just as Kallen's role is to protect Zero Suzaku's role was to stop him, but seriously if you have nothing good to discuss go back to the Kallen thread.

[bladeofdarkness]

Uh no Lelouch ordered Kallen to kill him and she took the order seriously how hard is that to admit, don't be posting crap in between actually evidence to support your thesis.

actually he told her two things
1)take suzaku out to clear the way (at which point she started to actually attack him)
2) after she was already about to kill him lelouch started screaming for her to do it
she didnt attack him until order to
but once ordered to she was out to kill him (thats why Lloyd was telling him to run)

[bladeofdarkness]

Did you watch the episode at all, if anything Kallen gave the initiative to attack not Suzaku and just as Kallen's role is to protect Zero Suzaku's role was to stop him, but seriously if you have nothing good to discuss go back to the Kallen thread.

again
she didnt attack him until lelouch told her to (once he did, it was all but over)
before that she was flying around him blocking his shots
and suzaku was the one who chose to stay and fight her rather then run (and gino did ask to be the one who fights her)
just stating the facts

[Eliarine]

So Suzaku isn't perfect and has some serious issues.
Well, that's not really new.

Oh, I'm sure everyone here is very much aware that Suzaku isn't perfect.

What we're having a wee bit of trouble getting across in this thread is that, you know, he's not the only one and doesn't need to drop dead in his tracks for it.

[Nogitsune]

Oh, I'm sure everyone here is very much aware that Suzaku isn't perfect.

What we're having a wee bit of trouble getting across in this thread is that, you know, he's not the only one and doesn't need to drop dead in his tracks for it.

That's about what I wanted to say. o.o
Suzaku is one of my three favourites, after all.
And I don't see why people are talking about Kallen here. I mean, I like her and all, but if Lelouch hadn't come along, she would still be a terrorist, damn it.
Not exactly the epitome of perfection, either.

[Grey Dawn]

Eliarine brought Kallen into the discussion by trying to make it seem like there is a double standard in how Kallen and Suzaku are treated in order to dodge an argument he didn't like. Blade got annoyed at the indirect jab at Kallen fans and decided to start defending her, even though Kallen herself wasn't being bashed.

And now Nogitsune, you're being hypocritical talking about how we shouldn't be talking about Kallen here and then going on about her character.

Drop it.

Also, Dean, being a grammar nazi isn't the best way to go about this. On the other hand, Cortitc just openly admitted hes going to be a wall and ignore everyone else's opinions, so not much will get very far regardless. Best to just ignore that type.

[Nogitsune]

And now Nogitsune, you're being hypocritical talking about how we shouldn't be talking about Kallen here and then going on about her character.

Hypocritical?
That's a bit harsh.
I just said I didn't understand why people are talking about her here, not that it's the most horrible thing I've ever seen.
Oh well. Back to Suzaku.
I think he's a very interesting (and damn huggable) character. I often wonder what would have happened if he hadn't killed his father.

[NyxOne]

Well, he would have most likely been killed as the Brits, in the face of his father's policy of 'fight to the death', would have probably taken to killing any and all Japanese in their path.

[Knight Of Zero]

Hypocritical?
That's a bit harsh.
I just said I didn't understand why people are talking about her here, not that it's the most horrible thing I've ever seen.
Oh well. Back to Suzaku.
I think he's a very interesting (and damn huggable) character. I often thought what would have happened if he hadn't killed his father.
I correct a bit spelling for u. He might be the next prime minister of Jaban if that the case.

[Nogitsune]

I correct a bit spelling for u. He might be the next prime minister of Jaban if that the case.

Oh, sorry, I wanted to put in "wonder" there. *goes and corrects it*
Thanks. ^^

But I was more thinking about his personality.
If his father had... I don't know... just died somehow, would Suzaku have started his own rebellion?

[Knight Of Zero]

Oh, sorry, I wanted to put in "wonder" there. *goes and corrects it*
Thanks. ^^

But I was more thinking about his personality.
If his father had... I don't know... just died somehow, would Suzaku have started his own rebellion?
Good question.....I think not cause in Nightmare Of Nunnally he was in the Britinnia army.;)

[Nogitsune]

Good question.....I think not cause in Nightmare Of Nunnally he was in the Britinnia army.;)

But Nightmare of Nunally isn't canon. o.o
Hm... what happened there to his father? I only know that I don't like the drawings. xD

[Knight Of Zero]

But Nightmare of Nunally isn't canon. o.o
Hm... what happened there to his father? I only know that I don't like the drawings. xD
His father was kill by CC I heard.

[Nogitsune]

His father was kill by CC I heard.

O_O
That's interesting.
Almost a reason to take a second look at it.

[Goldarmy]

After that kind of accident, there was only one path to take. Euphy wasn't going to get out of the responsibility for that incident.

Not really, It wasn't impossible for him to have her locked up. He chose to kill her to hide his shame and his secrets. But even if there was only one path it doesn't change the fact that it is a poor excuse.

Fair enough, but it doesn't really answer the question. It doesn't change the fact that it's the kind of thing that would get him killed.
I ask again if you are annoyed by this why are you watching action anime in the first place?

Even grunts need to be taught.How to hold a gun or which pedals to press in a Knightmare frame. Not special stuff like this. Of course unless you can find something like Training manual for Brittania Army both of us are just speculating.

Suzaku wouldn't is my point. He's even more stubborn than Tohdoh in that regard.Even if he was a prisoner of Black Knights?

At least if he were a rebel he'd be killing the enemy, not the people he's trying to help.
What are you talking about? Starting a rebel/guerilla war means you are comdemning a good portion of your own people to nasty death. For every enemy you kill you can expect ten people from your community to die, and this is the general low range number it can go higher than that. And we actually see it in the series. For a guy like Suzaku, who already carries the guilt failing to stop killings in the war, joining the army was the soundest thing he had done.

No, he doesn't understand the corruption, and if he did he would know that his plan is fundamentally flawed.
It wasn't flawed because he has met Britannians that aren't corrupt.

Nevertheless, Japan would be free and Zero's strategies insure that most of them would be alive to see it.
Zero's strategies aren't infallible (in fact it has been shown that he doesn't deall all well with unexpected events) and there is no proof that Japan can stay unharmed.

He couldn't predict that it was Schneizel who was showing up, that he had an energy rain of death Knightmare inside his giant flying ship.
As he couldn't predict the White Knight foiling his plans.

As for a giant target, it was Suzaku who said, paraphrased,
It was Lelouche who set up the trap with himself as bait.

Clearly not in this case.
Especially in this case. Morale and propaganda is vital to non-conventional wars. You don't get anywhere without shoving your ideas through the throats of people. That is why Zero was pushing allies of justice stuff. That is why he blew up JLF and used it as a rally point. That is why he went to Euphemia to sabotage her efforts and use it as a rally point.

It took him all of five seconds to figure out that the agency was compromised.
Only because Lelouche, Rolo and Viletta were nowhere to be found. In fact if they were around Lelouch would just play innocent, Rolo and Viletta would report all is well and Suzaku will be at where he started.

One does not jump to their very probable death like that as an act. Suzaku's just letting his hate blind him to the obvious.
Part of it is hatred and part of it is the fact that Leleouche is an excellent liar and manipulator.

True, but nevertheless they aren't willfully damning other countries to get that.Simply because they don't have to.

That he is doing what he does to the benefit of the people, at least as a means to his own end, rather than leaving them worse off.
He is doing what he does as always solely for his own end. That the people he got rid of were cartoonishly evil doesn't change it.

As for the first part, yes she is, but that doesn't change the fact that they were friends at one point
Friends? What friends? They were classmates and enemies not friends.

yet he has no problem killing her when she is, for all intents and purposes, defenseless against his attack.
She is willingly in a war machine (which she used to kill countless soldiers) on a modern war. Stop portraying Kallen as an innocent civilian victim.

Arguably the people inside Japan are barely his concern. He's just doing his Knight of One route as a way to remove the need for Zero.
And the reason you say this besides "I hate Suzaku"?

Certainly a colorful analogy. Geass makes people act against their nature, but they have no memory of it afterward. All those people Lelouch makes move to other cars in the trains are no worse off for it, and questioning Cornelia didn't exactly do her harm.
If Suzaku had brought Rai to make Kallen tell all of her secrets do you think people would have sympathise with him. Or would they call him Geasszaku?

This is like knocking someone out with a tranquilizer vs doing it with a bat. You get the same result, but one's gonna leave the victim a lot worse off.
Except the person using tranquilizer uses it to rape people.

Doesn't change the fact that he wanted the war over, and that meant not attacking Japan.
Because an all out war is a very wonderful thing and being a battlefield suits Japan very much.

As soon as Lelouch does it Suzaku's all put-off about Lelouch doing it because of him. He wouldn't have accepted anything less.
I have no idea what you are trying to tell with this line.

[morbosfist]

Not really, It wasn't impossible for him to have her locked up. He chose to kill her to hide his shame and his secrets. But even if there was only one path it doesn't change the fact that it is a poor excuse.He chose to kill her because she was being forced to do something against her nature, and forever would be. Geass can't be cured, at least not at that point. Killing her was an act of mercy. She would have been blamed one way or another, and killing her in no way hid what he did to her because there's no way to detect Geass other than knowing it exists and seeing behavior being off.

How to hold a gun or which pedals to press in a Knightmare frame. Not special stuff like this. Of course unless you can find something like Training manual for Brittania Army both of us are just speculating.Indeed we are, but in real-world armies even the lowest soldiers are generally expected to have a basic understanding of such things.

Even if he was a prisoner of Black Knights?Maybe not the terrorist versions in the first season, but if they took him prisoner cell and all, I don't see him breaking out.

What are you talking about? Starting a rebel/guerilla war means you are comdemning a good portion of your own people to nasty death. For every enemy you kill you can expect ten people from your community to die, and this is the general low range number it can go higher than that. And we actually see it in the series. For a guy like Suzaku, who already carries the guilt failing to stop killings in the war, joining the army was the soundest thing he had done.Suzaku joined the army because he felt guilty for killing his father, not because of any inability to stop the fighting. Hell, he outright put a stop to it by killing his father. As for causing the deaths of his fellow Japanese, he's doing that by being in the army to. Numbers are scum, it's national policy. That's why Clovis could order an entire ghetto cleansed on a whim. Rebellion isn't contributing to the death toll any more than the Britannians are.

It wasn't flawed because he has met Britannians that aren't corrupt.It is flawed because he met unimportant Britannians who are not corrupt. The people at the top are.

Zero's strategies aren't infallible (in fact it has been shown that he doesn't deall all well with unexpected events) and there is no proof that Japan can stay unharmed.Suzaku, and pretty much only Suzaku, is the reason why Zero's plans get messed up, because he's an irregular unit. As for Japan, obviously there's the threat of re-invasion, but to use that possibility as a mark against Lelouch is just foolish. He would know to organize their defense or push ahead.

As he couldn't predict the White Knight foiling his plans.

It was Lelouche who set up the trap with himself as bait.And Suzaku who figured it out and yet pressed on like a moron. That he couldn't predict Suzaku being a problem I cover earlier.

Especially in this case. Morale and propaganda is vital to non-conventional wars. You don't get anywhere without shoving your ideas through the throats of people. That is why Zero was pushing allies of justice stuff. That is why he blew up JLF and used it as a rally point. That is why he went to Euphemia to sabotage her efforts and use it as a rally point.People still have the illusion of free choice in these situations. Suzaku's way doesn't allow for even that small favor. He's outright making people bow before their oppressors.

Only because Lelouche, Rolo and Viletta were nowhere to be found. In fact if they were around Lelouch would just play innocent, Rolo and Viletta would report all is well and Suzaku will be at where he started.Which they wouldn't have been. Your point doesn't work. If he had just gone there first, he'd have his proof.

Part of it is hatred and part of it is the fact that Leleouche is an excellent liar and manipulator.Again, jumping to one's death is not something that can be faked.

Simply because they don't have to.Hence it's a much better way of going about it.

He is doing what he does as always solely for his own end. That the people he got rid of were cartoonishly evil doesn't change it.Just because one acts to their own end doesn't mean they can't help others along the way.

Friends? What friends? They were classmates and enemies not friends.Watch Stage 21. Kallen may not like him, but Suzaku at the very least wanted to try to change her mind. That went out the door quick.

She is willingly in a war machine (which she used to kill countless soldiers) on a modern war. Stop portraying Kallen as an innocent civilian victim.And stop trying to portray her as if they were on even ground. She couldn't fight back.

If Suzaku had brought Rai to make Kallen tell all of her secrets do you think people would have sympathise with him. Or would they call him Geasszaku?Despite the nonsensical nature of this, it would have been a better way to go about it. She wouldn't even remember betraying him.

Except the person using tranquilizer uses it to rape people.And the one using the bat is doing the same, one is still worse.

Because an all out war is a very wonderful thing and being a battlefield suits Japan very much.And slavery is better?

I have no idea what you are trying to tell with this line.It means that Suzaku expected Lelouch to call off his attack completely, as in no attacking Japan ever. Suzaku got all put-off because Lelouch went ahead and did it after their meeting went south.

[Dean_the_Young]

He chose to kill her because she was being forced to do something against her nature, and forever would be. Geass can't be cured, at least not at that point. Killing her was an act of mercy. She would have been blamed one way or another, and killing her in no way hid what he did to her because there's no way to detect Geass other than knowing it exists and seeing behavior being off.
You really just agreed with him, you know. Not one bit of that counters his assertion that Lelouch did it to hid the truth.

Indeed we are, but in real-world armies even the lowest soldiers are generally expected to have a basic understanding of such things.Congratulations! We are talking about anime-world, where Pizza Hut supports the rebellion, giant robots skate, and teenage princes can convince gullible masses to die for his own gains.

Maybe not the terrorist versions in the first season, but if they took him prisoner cell and all, I don't see him breaking out.This is Suzaku, the man who kicks down automated machine gun turrents. If the plot calls for it, he'd do it.

Suzaku joined the army because he felt guilty for killing his father, not because of any inability to stop the fighting. Hell, he outright put a stop to it by killing his father. As for causing the deaths of his fellow Japanese, he's doing that by being in the army to. Numbers are scum, it's national policy. That's why Clovis could order an entire ghetto cleansed on a whim. Rebellion isn't contributing to the death toll any more than the Britannians are.Of course, when there isn't a rebellion or resistance, Britannia isn't cracking down. Do you happen to remember why Clovis ordered the razing of the ghetto?

Ah, that's right. A couple rebels with an outdated knightmare blew up a black project, killing Japanese and Britannian civilians both, and then made off with goods that they didn't even know. Or rather, thought was a nerve agent... which could really only kill a lot of Japanese, if used in Japan.

It is flawed because he met unimportant Britannians who are not corrupt. The people at the top are.Euphie, Shneizel, Charles, Cornellia, and Cornelia's knights were corrupt?

Flawed or not, it worked. Suzaku's path of using the system brought the SAZ, which even Lelouch submitted to.

Suzaku, and pretty much only Suzaku, is the reason why Zero's plans get messed up, because he's an irregular unit. As for Japan, obviously there's the threat of re-invasion, but to use that possibility as a mark against Lelouch is just foolish. He would know to organize their defense or push ahead.Push ahead? Do you remember why Japan was conquered so easily in the first place? Japan is small and weak, and has always been behind the curve. During the first war, Britannia deploys knightmares. During the first rebellion, Britannia fields superior knightmares, pioneers the float system and other weapons, and grinds the Rebellion to dust.

In the second rebellion, Britannia has nukes.

If you accuse Suzaku of being a hopeless follower of a flawed path that actually succeded, you really should lynch Lelouch for being so stupid as to oppose a military that really can kill everyone else combined.


People still have the illusion of free choice in these situations. Suzaku's way doesn't allow for even that small favor. He's outright making people bow before their oppressors.By recognizing that neither actually gives the Japanese any choice in the matter, you've implicitly recognized that Suzaku is being more honest with the people he seeks to benefit as he sees best.

Now was that so hard?


Again, jumping to one's death is not something that can be faked.Sure it is. Happens in fiction all the time.


Ah, I'd say more on the comedic gold mine you have here, but alas debating the finer parts of fiction and what a work of fiction shows isn't in my time schedule.

[morbosfist]

You really just agreed with him, you know. Not one bit of that counters his assertion that Lelouch did it to hid the truth.Thought I did. He didn't do it to hide the truth. He could just let her massacre endlessly and it wouldn't reveal what he did. He did it out of mercy.

Of course, when there isn't a rebellion or resistance, Britannia isn't cracking down. Do you happen to remember why Clovis ordered the razing of the ghetto?Alright, fair enough on that part, but they go after rebellious forces anyway. Cornelia went all out against the JLF headquarters when she got to town.

Ah, that's right. A couple rebels with an outdated knightmare blew up a black project, killing Japanese and Britannian civilians both, and then made off with goods that they didn't even know. Or rather, thought was a nerve agent... which could really only kill a lot of Japanese, if used in Japan.
Euphie, Shneizel, Charles, Cornellia, and Cornelia's knights were corrupt?I don't recall it ever saying Japanese were killed in that little raid. Regardless, Kallen was against the idea of using because it would start a massacre. Begs the question of just what they planned to do with it, though.

Corruption, however, has nothing to do with this particular incident. Corruption here is how policy is formed, carried out, etc. In this case, Charles is top dog and it is outright law that non-Britannians are scum. The only way that was going to change was through a new Emperor.

Flawed or not, it worked. Suzaku's path of using the system brought the SAZ, which even Lelouch submitted to.Only because Euphie gave him a pardon, explained a few pages back. Plus, Suzaku had virtually nothing to do with that, other than being Euphie's LI.

Push ahead? Do you remember why Japan was conquered so easily in the first place? Japan is small and weak, and has always been behind the curve. During the first war, Britannia deploys knightmares. During the first rebellion, Britannia fields superior knightmares, pioneers the float system and other weapons, and grinds the Rebellion to dust.

In the second rebellion, Britannia has nukes.Japan was one of the last conquered because it's such a problematic country. They held their own until Knightmare Frames came about. During the first rebellion they failed because Zero left with their biggest military asset. Superior Knightmares had nothing to do with it, because the only ones fielding such things weren't even on the battlefield. The second rebellion had the Britannians with an actual strategic advantage, which is why they pretty much stalemated after that.

If you accuse Suzaku of being a hopeless follower of a flawed path that actually succeded, you really should lynch Lelouch for being so stupid as to oppose a military that really can kill everyone else combined.It didn't succeed, nor would it have without Lelouch working from outside the system. As for Lelouch challenging Britannia, he did so repeatedly and won. Only those in which completely unforeseen circumstances royally fucked up his plans does he actually fare badly. The Britannians may have military might, but you can only fit so much might in one place.

By recognizing that neither actually gives the Japanese any choice in the matter, you've implicitly recognized that Suzaku is being more honest with the people he seeks to benefit as he sees best.By telling them their opinion means nothing and that they should remain slaves. Lelouch appeals to freedom, which many do want. He is less honest about his motives but he's giving people what they want, so opposed to forcing them to accept something they don't.

Sure it is. Happens in fiction all the time.I can thing of a few examples where they do it intentionally, but doing it while catching another person who definitely isn't is another story.

[Dean_the_Young]

Since long quote wars are tiresome and tedious, I'm going to pick a few of these.

Alright, fair enough on that part, but they go after rebellious forces anyway. Cornelia went all out against the JLF headquarters when she got to town.
Because the JLF was resisting. Didn't we already establish that Britannia cracks down with extreme prejudice on any resistance, but doesn't do so without such?


I don't recall it ever saying Japanese were killed in that little raid.It was one of the show's first demonstrations of the Britannian importance over Elevens. There's a news report on the terrorist attack which leads off with the Britannian death toll, and then mentions as an aside the Eleven death toll even though more Elevens died than Britannians.

Corruption, however, has nothing to do with this particular incident. Corruption here is how policy is formed, carried out, etc. In this case, Charles is top dog and it is outright law that non-Britannians are scum. The only way that was going to change was through a new Emperor.That's not corruption, that's racism. Which, strictly speaking, Charles isn't. Charles is the epitome of Darwinistic thought, not caring about race if you have power. Schneizel never shows any real racism (and, remember, Suzaku agreed to try and put him on the Throne once it became clear Charles didn't care about the world), Euphie loved the Japanese, and even Cornelia has her views of Elevens-turned-Honorary Britanians slowly changed from opposition to grudging respect as Suzaku keeps defying her expectations.

Corruption is the stuff like taking bribes, abusing authority, taking advantage of the weak, etc. There's plenty of that in Britannia as well, but that's largely focused in the lower nobles and authority.

Only because Euphie gave him a pardon, explained a few pages back. Plus, Suzaku had virtually nothing to do with that, other than being Euphie's LI.Exactly. Working through the system to make change from within, even though Suzaku himself has little power. Suzaku supports Euphie, as even Euphie acknowledges, and Euphie uses her power to change the system. It is the validation of his entire philosophy.

Japan was one of the last conquered because it's such a problematic country. They held their own until Knightmare Frames came about. Actually, the side material clarifies that Japan held on because it balanced all three powers, Europe, Britannia, and China, against eachother, even though each could overpower it. Suzaku's father gambled that none would challenge him because of the other two, but Britannia called him out on it and scored a total victory.


By telling them their opinion means nothing and that they should remain slaves. Lelouch appeals to freedom, which many do want. He is less honest about his motives but he's giving people what they want, so opposed to forcing them to accept something they don't.
Not forcing them to accept? Lelouch launched his rebellion regardless of what others thought. When the SAZ promised to let the Elevens be Japanese, legal equals to Britannians, the public was siding with the peaceful path to their legal freedom, a completely voluntary path for those who chose to partake. And what does Lelouch do? He goes there with the express purpose of tearing it down, even if he does change his mind afterwords.

Lelouch is just as guilty as Suzaku for putting his own desires and judgements above what everyone else thinks. Do we really need to touch on the Demon Emperor Lelouch and the Zero Requiem, which was a plan built on the very premise that Lelouch and Suzaku knew what was best for the world and how to do it, screw the world's opinion on the matter?


I can thing of a few examples where they do it intentionally, but doing it while catching another person who definitely isn't is another story.It's fiction. Whatever they want to happen, say will happen, happens. Realism flies out the door at the very premise of Code Geass and Britannia; there really is no way for the pre-Revolution Americas, cut off from the economic, military, and technological monopole of Europe, to build up a continent-spanning superpower without infrastructure, European finance, constant skilled (read: at the time, European) immigration, and a workable political theory. But the story calls for it, and so it is.

[morbosfist]

Because the JLF was resisting. Didn't we already establish that Britannia cracks down with extreme prejudice on any resistance, but doesn't do so without such?Cornelia tore the hell out of Area 18 as I recall, and they were being conquered, not rebelling. Britannia pretty much crushes anyone that isn't Britannia.

It was one of the show's first demonstrations of the Britannian importance over Elevens. There's a news report on the terrorist attack which leads off with the Britannian death toll, and then mentions as an aside the Eleven death toll even though more Elevens died than Britannians.It's the media slanted toward Britannians, so saying more Elevens died may just be their way of throwing more blame on the terrorists. Even if it's not, given that Britannia uses Numbers as cheap labor and cannon, attacking anywhere is pretty likely to see dead Elevens one way or another.

That's not corruption, that's racism. Which, strictly speaking, Charles isn't. Charles is the epitome of Darwinistic thought, not caring about race if you have power. Schneizel never shows any real racism (and, remember, Suzaku agreed to try and put him on the Throne once it became clear Charles didn't care about the world), Euphie loved the Japanese, and even Cornelia has her views of Elevens-turned-Honorary Britanians slowly changed from opposition to grudging respect as Suzaku keeps defying her expectations.

Corruption is the stuff like taking bribes, abusing authority, taking advantage of the weak, etc. There's plenty of that in Britannia as well, but that's largely focused in the lower nobles and authority. Racism/corruption in this case equates to the same: the system isn't changing for Numbers. Charles is the one making the policy, and ousting him would not exactly have gone easily were it not for Lelouch. Schneizel's lack of motivation would have never seem him make a grab at the throne without Suzaku. Euphie's an exception, but she wasn't exactly in a position to take the throne or make sweeping changes. In fact she ruined that by giving up her title to get Zero to participate in the SAZ. Cornelia changes, but she too wasn't reaching the throne.

Exactly. Working through the system to make change from within, even though Suzaku himself has little power. Suzaku supports Euphie, as even Euphie acknowledges, and Euphie uses her power to change the system. It is the validation of his entire philosophy. I would accept that if he actually had any plan to that effect. Suzaku just expects it to happen. That it does doesn't make him right, it just makes him lucky. Not to mention the fact that the supposed "change" was just a means to put down the rebellion rather than an honest desire for equality, at least as far as Schneizel was concerned.

Actually, the side material clarifies that Japan held on because it balanced all three powers, Europe, Britannia, and China, against eachother, even though each could overpower it. Suzaku's father gambled that none would challenge him because of the other two, but Britannia called him out on it and scored a total victory.Knightmares were still a trump card there. There was no matching that.

Not forcing them to accept? Lelouch launched his rebellion regardless of what others thought. When the SAZ promised to let the Elevens be Japanese, legal equals to Britannians, the public was siding with the peaceful path to their legal freedom, a completely voluntary path for those who chose to partake. And what does Lelouch do? He goes there with the express purpose of tearing it down, even if he does change his mind afterwords.Fair enough there. He was going to tear it down. He saw it for what it was, though, even before it started up. Such a thing would not be freedom, just a shiny thing to get the Elevens to play nice while the rebellious elements fell apart. And even then, he did it in a way that would at least make him look favorable. It's simple politics, a matter in which Lelouch has considerable skill and Suzaku has none.

Lelouch is just as guilty as Suzaku for putting his own desires and judgements above what everyone else thinks. Do we really need to touch on the Demon Emperor Lelouch and the Zero Requiem, which was a plan built on the very premise that Lelouch and Suzaku knew what was best for the world and how to do it, screw the world's opinion on the matter?The way I see it they had just both gone batshit insane at that point, more so for Lelouch. The near-tanging of the world, his friend still wanting revenge, and losing pretty much everything that mattered to him does tend to push one into "fuck it" territory. Before that, at least, Lelouch is considerate enough to help others reach their goals on the surface.

[Dean_the_Young]

Cornelia tore the hell out of Area 18 as I recall, and they were being conquered, not rebelling. Britannia pretty much crushes anyone that isn't Britannia.Agreed, but once they conquer you they won't just kill you unless there's resistance.

It's the media slanted toward Britannians, so saying more Elevens died may just be their way of throwing more blame on the terrorists. Even if it's not, given that Britannia uses Numbers as cheap labor and cannon, attacking anywhere is pretty likely to see dead Elevens one way or another.That really doesn't matter from the original point, which was that the Japanese resistance attack also killed more Japanese than Britannians.

Racism/corruption in this case equates to the same: the system isn't changing for Numbers. Charles is the one making the policy, and ousting him would not exactly have gone easily were it not for Lelouch. Schneizel's lack of motivation would have never seem him make a grab at the throne without Suzaku. Euphie's an exception, but she wasn't exactly in a position to take the throne or make sweeping changes. In fact she ruined that by giving up her title to get Zero to participate in the SAZ. Cornelia changes, but she too wasn't reaching the throne.
1) Racism and corruption are not the same thing, because they mean entirely different things. This is a matter of definition, not semantics.
2) Schneizel was already running Britannian diplomacy and much domestic, both de facto and dejure as the foreign minister. Becoming Emperor really would have just cemented what he already did.
3) The SAZ was that sweeping change, and one that could, and if it proved out well (and the anime implications were that it would have) then it could have been copied in other areas.

I would accept that if he actually had any plan to that effect. Suzaku just expects it to happen. That it does doesn't make him right, it just makes him lucky. Not to mention the fact that the supposed "change" was just a means to put down the rebellion rather than an honest desire for equality, at least as far as Schneizel was concerned.He works to prove Britannians wrong in their assumptions of the Elevens. His hard work validates the Honorary Britanian system, and his successes are the proof that make the possiblity of reform possible; Cornelia and her nights go from rank dismissal to respect for him, as a Honorary Britanian and an Eleven, due to his work. It doesn't matter why Britania would offer legal equality and freedom, so long as they do.

If you're trying to negate his gain because Schneizel and Cornelia weren't sincere and eagerly hoping for equality, should I also assume that you do the same for Lelouch and Zero? The man who, in the final turn of S1, admits to Kallen that he saw Japan's liberation as little more than a welcome side-effect of his own crusade, and that she should have no complains?

Knightmares were still a trump card there. There was no matching that.Yes, but that was icing on the cake. The very opening episode describes Japan as a land of few resources, and the side material makes clear that Japan only acts as it does because it plays three stronger powers off of each other.

Fair enough there. He was going to tear it down. He saw it for what it was, though, even before it started up. Such a thing would not be freedom, just a shiny thing to get the Elevens to play nice while the rebellious elements fell apart. And even then, he did it in a way that would at least make him look favorable. It's simple politics, a matter in which Lelouch has considerable skill and Suzaku has none.And Suzaku had large support from the Japanese and Elevens before the Euphie Massacre, and the leaders such as Schneizel and Cornelia would take care to keep the populace docile and happy, if only to prevent more problems from starting. As we already agreed on, even though Britannia is out to conquer the world it isn't out to kill it's occupied areas for no reason. If Japan is content and non-rebellious with it's equality within the zone, Britannia won't need to crackdown. If Britannia doesn't crack down, then the Japanese can continue to go about being free and equal to Britannians, which creates a virtuous cycle until an outside force disrupts it.

You simply can not honestly dismiss Suzaku for ignoring the opinion of the people and for the potential consequences of his success without doing the same for Lelouch, who not only placed his own judgement above that of every other person in the series, including the sister he started it all for, but as we already established was committed to fighting the world's only nuclear power. Regardless of how skillful Lelouch is at politics, he is also dedicated to crushing Britannia, shown to be as powerful as the rest of the world combined, and Britannia is dedicated to keeping the Geass ruins that were Charles' motivations for invasions in the first place. That's an equally damning set of catastrophe as the dire warnings you raise for if the SAZ succeded.

[Dilla]

And Suzaku had large support from the Japanese and Elevens before the Euphie Massacre, and the leaders such as Schneizel and Cornelia would take care to keep the populace docile and happy, if only to prevent more problems from starting. As we already agreed on, even though Britannia is out to conquer the world it isn't out to kill it's occupied areas for no reason. If Japan is content and non-rebellious with it's equality within the zone, Britannia won't need to crackdown. If Britannia doesn't crack down, then the Japanese can continue to go about being free and equal to Britannians, which creates a virtuous cycle until an outside force disrupts it.Did you see Cornelia's reaction when SAZ was annouced?

I don't buy that part, there were various instances that was that proved Japanese wasn't equal to Britannians even without resistance. Like the the beatdown of Japanese civilians by Britannian citizens in public, not goveronment personel. Pubilc opinion was that Japanese was inferior to Britannians. It would take decades to change that mindset, not just a parcel of land. And when the only way you can get somewhere in the world in is to sign up to be an Honorary Britannian over being Japanese, that is not equal.

And I wonder about Charles, he may not have been a racist, but he was a strong believer of Darwinism. Had he actually taken notice that Euphie was giving the Japanese land back, and it started to show success, how hard unbelievable would it have been if he did something about it? Chances are he would have flexed his power over Schneizel and Cornelia(who didn't give Suzaku respect until after the Massacre). And of course, soldiers would have followed Charles since they still believe Japan was inferior, just look at how eagerly they followed Euphie when she randomly ordered the massacre of civilians.

I'm not saying that SAZ couldn't have worked, it may have been pretty likely. But to say it would have worked was just absurd. It's all specualtion, it was, is, and will always be.

[NyxOne]

Well, it's been generally established that, with the exceptions of Schneizel and Lelouch, Charles doesn't give a shit about his kids.

[demon_god04]

Well, it's been generally established that, with the exceptions of Schneizel and Lelouch, Charles doesn't give a shit about his kids.

Even with those two, he gave a shit because they got into the way of his plans. Infact Charles has been shown to not even care about the governing of his empire which is one of the things that put Schneizel off about him.

As for the SAZ, it as been mentioned but one of the major reasons it was even allowed was because the Britannians needed to undermind Zero's support. So really Zero had more to contribute to the formation of the SAZ then Suzaku himself. The way I see it, Euphie formed the SAZ because of what she believed in and the kind of person she was. In fact when Nunally tried to reform the SAZ, Suzaku was not behind the idea until Euphie was mentioned. Euphie influenced Suzaku much more then the way around as up until Euphie gave him the speech about loving her he was still looking to die a martyr. Euphie gave him a new wish and gave him her ideals as well.

[Knight Of Zero]

Even with those two, he gave a shit because they got into the way of his plans. Infact Charles has been shown to not even care about the governing of his empire which is one of the things that put Schneizel off about him.

As for the SAZ, it as been mentioned but one of the major reasons it was even allowed was because the Britannians needed to undermind Zero's support. So really Zero had more to contribute to the formation of the SAZ then Suzaku himself. The way I see it, Euphie formed the SAZ because of what she believed in and the kind of person she was. In fact when Nunally tried to reform the SAZ, Suzaku was not behind the idea until Euphie was mentioned. Euphie influenced Suzaku much more then the way around as up until Euphie gave him the speech about loving her he was still looking to die a martyr. Euphie gave him a new wish and gave him her ideals as well.
She didn't gave him new ideals he been had those stupid thoughts.

[morbosfist]

Agreed, but once they conquer you they won't just kill you unless there's resistance.No, they just treat you like slaves, leave you to die in poverty, etc.

That really doesn't matter from the original point, which was that the Japanese resistance attack also killed more Japanese than Britannians.Fine, can't argue that.

1) Racism and corruption are not the same thing, because they mean entirely different things. This is a matter of definition, not semantics.
2) Schneizel was already running Britannian diplomacy and much domestic, both de facto and dejure as the foreign minister. Becoming Emperor really would have just cemented what he already did.
3) The SAZ was that sweeping change, and one that could, and if it proved out well (and the anime implications were that it would have) then it could have been copied in other areas.Racism can result in corruption, because the system is set up in such a way that it becomes impossible for those it discriminates against to change it. Schneizel may have been running foreign policy, but his actions were still being run past the Emperor. He was smart enough not to rock the boat so the uncaring Emperor wouldn't get on his case.

The SAZ has been covered by others before me, but I'll reiterate a few points. The SAZ was not a sweeping change. It was a gimmick used by the higher-ups to fuck over the rebels. It wouldn't have been copied in other areas, because it would go against Charles' policies of discrimination. Hell, the only reason he didn't put a stop to it is because he outright knew Lelouch would ruin it. You see this in his happy laugh during the massacre. He may have been happily surprised, but he knew something would happen.

He works to prove Britannians wrong in their assumptions of the Elevens. His hard work validates the Honorary Britanian system, and his successes are the proof that make the possiblity of reform possible; Cornelia and her nights go from rank dismissal to respect for him, as a Honorary Britanian and an Eleven, due to his work. It doesn't matter why Britania would offer legal equality and freedom, so long as they do.Reform is not a one-man job. Reform is something many people fight for. This is something Suzaku doesn't realize. All Suzaku did was prove himself a traitor and a backstabber, which is why many Britannians dealt with him. Not once but twice, by two different people no less, he is outright called a man who will betray anyone to get a leg up. Cornelia and her knights only respected him because of Euphie, and even then Cornelia only did so after Euphie died.

If you're trying to negate his gain because Schneizel and Cornelia weren't sincere and eagerly hoping for equality, should I also assume that you do the same for Lelouch and Zero? The man who, in the final turn of S1, admits to Kallen that he saw Japan's liberation as little more than a welcome side-effect of his own crusade, and that she should have no complains?It wasn't his gain because he did nothing to make it happen. it was Euphie's idea inspired by Lelouch and Nunnally. Lelouch was using Japan's liberation as a stepping stone to further his plans, which means it is not a side-effect but an expected outcome. Lelouch was working toward a specific goal. Suzaku had no plan whatsoever.

Yes, but that was icing on the cake. The very opening episode describes Japan as a land of few resources, and the side material makes clear that Japan only acts as it does because it plays three stronger powers off of each other.Alright, I won't argue this.

And Suzaku had large support from the Japanese and Elevens before the Euphie Massacre, and the leaders such as Schneizel and Cornelia would take care to keep the populace docile and happy, if only to prevent more problems from starting. As we already agreed on, even though Britannia is out to conquer the world it isn't out to kill it's occupied areas for no reason. If Japan is content and non-rebellious with it's equality within the zone, Britannia won't need to crackdown. If Britannia doesn't crack down, then the Japanese can continue to go about being free and equal to Britannians, which creates a virtuous cycle until an outside force disrupts it.Suzaku didn't have major support. At best opinions were divided. Euphie's "country on a silver platter" is what swayed people. Just because Britannia wouldn't massacre its occupied territories for no reason doesn't mean they'd let freedom stand. The Numbers aren't equal. Again, it's national policy. Charles wouldn't have put up with it in more than one place.

You simply can not honestly dismiss Suzaku for ignoring the opinion of the people and for the potential consequences of his success without doing the same for Lelouch, who not only placed his own judgement above that of every other person in the series, including the sister he started it all for, but as we already established was committed to fighting the world's only nuclear power. Regardless of how skillful Lelouch is at politics, he is also dedicated to crushing Britannia, shown to be as powerful as the rest of the world combined, and Britannia is dedicated to keeping the Geass ruins that were Charles' motivations for invasions in the first place. That's an equally damning set of catastrophe as the dire warnings you raise for if the SAZ succeded.To start, Britannia was not a nuclear power until way late in the series, and he doesn't fight them after that point. Schneizel was just one man with a big gun in the final battle, and we know how his plan would play out if Lelouch didn't put him down.

As for Suzaku, I can dismiss him, because Lelouch is giving people what they want and working toward the same goal in an effective manner, while Suzaku's method, in addition to simply telling everyone who disagrees to shut up and play nice, would still leave Japan a conquered nation, assuming he even managed to become Knight of One.

Finally, to the part about fighting Britannia in general, just because a nation has better resources does not make them unbeatable. In fact, they were pretty much even with the UFN once it was formed, and even in single engagements only so much military force can be used in one place. The bigger army is not always the victor, and Lelouch fought them because he has the skill to beat those odds.

[Nogitsune]

So Suzaku always was idealistic and flawed.
I think we already established that.
I still adore him, just like I adore Lelouch and Clovis. Neither of them is a saint, but they are all very intriguing characters who just couldn't get it right.

Sure, Lelouch always tried to give people what they wanted, but he never bothered to ask them first. And how many lives did he destroy on the way? Her murdered women, children, abandoned a whole country for the sake of his personal happiness (which, of course, equals Nunally), ...yep, definitely not a saint.
But he was too kind for this world, so I really don't blame him. Quite the opposite, in fact: I think he deserved much more happiness in his life.
Now, that may seem a little bit off-topic, but I think it's rather hard to talk about either Lelouch or Suzaku without mentioning the other. (And I'll never get how you can love one of them and hate the other like some people do/did, but that's just me.)

Suzaku, in my opinion, is the same as Lelouch. He was much too kind for the world he was born into.
His childhood was not much less traumatic than Lelouch's, and just like his best friend, he was only trying to do the right thing.
They have a different way of thinking, but that what makes their friendship so much more interesting. They complement each other.
If Suzaku hadn't been consumed by his guilt, if Lelouch had known about his friends pain, if they hadn't been sperated or done things just a little bit differently... I wonder what would have happened.
But even though we can only speculate about that, I'm pretty sure things would have went a lot more smoothly.

[morbosfist]

I don't think they could have worked together at any point before when they did. Suzaku needed to get thoroughly slapped in the face with how pointless his methods were and Lelouch needed to lose everything before finally dealing with Suzaku.

[Nogitsune]

I don't think they could have worked together at any point before when they did. Suzaku needed to get thoroughly slapped in the face with how pointless his methods were and Lelouch needed to lose everything before finally dealing with Suzaku.

I disagree.
But we'll never know, so... *shrugs*
I really love exploring those ideas in fanfiction, though. ;P

[morbosfist]

Aye, we'll never know. Suzaku at the start would have never gone for Lelouch's methods, and Lelouch would not have done things as peacefully as Suzaku wanted. Nuking millions of people taught Suzaku that you need to break a few eggs, and Lelouch just had nothing left to lose.

[Eliarine]

I don't think they could have worked together at any point before when they did. Suzaku needed to get thoroughly slapped in the face with how pointless his methods were and Lelouch needed to lose everything before finally dealing with Suzaku.

They both needed a good slap in the face. That's what made the show interesting. Since they're not that different and all. But that's just my opinion.

[morbosfist]

They both needed a good slap in the face. That's what made the show interesting. Since they're not that different and all. But that's just my opinion.Losing everything would be the slap, so we agree here. His lies cost him the Black Knights, pretty much the only thing he had left.

[Nogitsune]

Aye, we'll never know. Suzaku at the start would have never gone for Lelouch's methods, and Lelouch would not have done things as peacefully as Suzaku wanted. Nuking millions of people taught Suzaku that you need to break a few eggs, and Lelouch just had nothing left to lose.

But what if Lelouch had managed to make Suzaku feel less guilty about killing his own father? If he had known about it back when they were children?
What if they had never been seperated?
What if Suzaku's father had died from... errr... an allergic reaction to cat fur instead?
I think they would at least have acted a little less reckless/stupid/whatever you want to call it.

They both needed a good slap in the face. That's what made the show interesting. Since they're not that different and all. But that's just my opinion.

And I agree.
...Not that that's very suprising. xD

[morbosfist]

But what if Lelouch had managed to make Suzaku feel less guilty about killing his own father? If he had known about it back when they were children?
What if they had never been seperated?
What if Suzaku's father had died from... errr... an allergic reaction to cat fur instead?
I think they would at least have acted a little less reckless/stupid/whatever you want to call it.Go back far enough and who they are fundamentally changes, at which point speculating becomes impossible. Suzaku himself speculates about what would have happened if he told Lelouch about killing his father in the last picture drama of the first season.

[Eliarine]

But what if Lelouch had managed to make Suzaku feel less guilty about killing his own father? If he had known about it back when they were children?

I've wondered about that too, after seeing that Picture Drama where Suzaku reflects on the "I'm going to destroy Britannia!" scene. If he'd actually spoken to Lelouch about the whole patricide thing...maybe things would have been a lot different.

[Nogitsune]

Go back far enough and who they are fundamentally changes, at which point speculating becomes impossible. Suzaku himself speculates about what would have happened if he told Lelouch about killing his father in the last picture drama of the first season.

Ah, I heard about that, even though I didn't find the translation. o.o
And as I already said, I agree that we'll never know what would have happened. It's still great for driving oneself crazy. Or writing fanfiction (if there even is a difference ;P)... should I ever find the time for another project, I'll give it a try.

[Vakir]

They both needed a good slap in the face. That's what made the show interesting. Since they're not that different and all. But that's just my opinion.

Important part bolded.

A very long time later, some very smart people are still only just now regarding how the show is entertaining due to being a trainwreck. ;)

Code Geass (and in the process, Suzaku) was entertaining because of the fact that generally every character short of maybe Mary Sue Kaguya needed a stiff slap in the face.

If Suzaku joined Lelouch, there'd be no story.

Semi-unrelated, part of how amusing it is that everyone needs a slap in the face comes from the fact that Lelouch's powers are more conducive to changing Britannia from the inside and Suzaku's are more conducive to changing Britannia from the outside...and yet they completely reversed these motivations, Suzaku because of his "morally important" shield personality to cover up his idiotic mistake and Lelouch because of his lust for revenge and slippery slope jumping.

Obviously Lelouch and Suzaku could've done things differently, but the show would've been over in three episodes. If Lelouch decided to use Geass intelligently to control key people in the government rather than waste it on gathering information about his mother, he'd fix the infrastructure rather quickly. If Suzaku decided to run around in the Lancelot blowing the collective red-shirt ensign army up he'd cause way more change than he would running around as an Honorary Soldier with a death wish.

[NyxOne]

...Kaguya's a Mary Sue all of a sudden?

[Nogitsune]

Yes!
Because... errr... because she's a fangirl, yeah!
...Omg. I'm a Mary Sue. q.q
But that at least explains why I like her. o.o

[Vakir]

...Kaguya's a Mary Sue all of a sudden?

Lesseee...moe, tender and kind, brilliant, a great leader at an preternaturally young age, "wise beyond her years" cliche because any attractive teenager must be intelligent...

The only "flaw" you can pick out is that she cries. A lot. Which is par in Code Geass.

I blame the lack of screen time.

So, were you thinking of contributing anything relevant?

[Nogitsune]

Lesseee...moe, tender and kind, brilliant, a great leader at an preternaturally young age, "wise beyond her years" cliche because any attractive teenager must be intelligent...

Was a fangirl, fell for Lelouch's lie, was mainly a figurehead for her people, never achieved anything overly significant...

The only "flaw" you can pick out is that she cries. A lot. Which is par in Code Geass.

I disagree.
Not to mention that Mary Sues love crying. They also need to have a tragic past and sacrifice themselves for-... *stops suddenly and gasps* Omg! Lelouch tried to become a Mary Sue!

I blame the lack of screen time.

A Mary Sue with a lack of screen time?
Now that's a contradiction.


Errr... but back to Suzaku.
I'm sure Arthur found him!

[Shuuda]

Lesseee...moe, tender and kind, brilliant, a great leader at an preternaturally young age, "wise beyond her years" cliche because any attractive teenager must be intelligent...

The only "flaw" you can pick out is that she cries. A lot. Which is par in Code Geass.



That does not really equal Mary-Sue. And she has more flaws than that.

because any attractive teenager must be intelligent...

Erm... not really, is it not the other way around just as much (if not a lot more), that attractive teenagers usually are not that intelligent. Besides, name one major or secondary character in CG who is not attractive... they all are in some way.

Perhaps I should have hidden my sig and avatar.

[Nogitsune]

Perhaps I should have hidden my sig and avatar.

Why?
Let people think what they want.
I happen to like Kaguya, too. She's a fangirl, after all - and fangirls should stick together. ;P

[Dean_the_Young]

That does not really equal Mary-Sue. And she has more flaws than that.
Such as...?

Well, I could actually name a few, but they weren't the kind that the anime intended to point out, and tend to be the same sort of mistakes/flaws that Mary Sues make but never own up to. Like how she berates Suzaku for not being grateful for Zero saving his life... the episode after Suzaku saved the lives of a million Zeroes.


Erm... not really, is it not the other way around just as much (if not a lot more), that attractive teenagers usually are not that intelligent. Besides, name one major or secondary character in CG who is not attractive... they all are in some way.Tamaki. Ugly sonuva-gun- does not look good with an aborted baby beard. :D

[morbosfist]

Well, I could actually name a few, but they weren't the kind that the anime intended to point out, and tend to be the same sort of mistakes/flaws that Mary Sues make but never own up to. Like how she berates Suzaku for not being grateful for Zero saving his life... the episode after Suzaku saved the lives of a million Zeroes.He didn't save them, he just didn't go back on his word and massacre them.

[Eliarine]

Yeah, seriously. Get it through your heads that Suzaku has no redeeming points whatsoever already.

[Knight Of Zero]

Yeah, seriously. Get it through your heads that Suzaku has no redeeming points whatsoever already.
yeah, will someone is willing to forgive him again and again.

[morbosfist]

Yeah, seriously. Get it through your heads that Suzaku has no redeeming points whatsoever already.That he didn't go with the prevailing Britannian opinion, "slaughter them," is certainly a plus, but to claim that he alone is responsible for saving them is silly. He nearly ordered their deaths himself, which Romeyer picked up on. No one else but her was going to fire without orders. He just stopped her.

[Vakir]

Yeah, seriously. Get it through your heads that Suzaku has no redeeming points whatsoever already.

Sarcasm, right?

[Dean_the_Young]

He didn't save them, he just didn't go back on his word and massacre them.
When pretty much every other person of authority and experience is urging the massacre, a blatant bending of the promise to exile a single man is executed, and knowing that choosing the devil's own path would decisively end the rebellion once and for all, standing up to machine and saying "no" is effectively saving a million lives.

Especially, you know, when that's the terms the anime itself says. That Suzaku saved all their lives, but no one will ever thank him for it (and that he doesn't care about the praise). If the anime says that Suzaku saved a million lives by refusing to allow a massacre, then by god in the anime Suzaku saved a million lives.

[blitz1/2]

Sarcasm, right?

of course it's sarcasm.

[morbosfist]

When pretty much every other person of authority and experience is urging the massacre, a blatant bending of the promise to exile a single man is executed, and knowing that choosing the devil's own path would decisively end the rebellion once and for all, standing up to machine and saying "no" is effectively saving a million lives.

Especially, you know, when that's the terms the anime itself says. That Suzaku saved all their lives, but no one will ever thank him for it (and that he doesn't care about the praise). If the anime says that Suzaku saved a million lives by refusing to allow a massacre, then by god in the anime Suzaku saved a million lives.By one character's opinion he saved those lives, but he is not solely responsible for it. He was also going to go along with the other Britannians before Romeyer's impulsiveness got to him. He avoided the slippery slope as he manages time and again, but he was hardly all about saving them the entire time.

Lelouch played on his sympathies knowing he would react as such. Suzaku was led into a situation where he had no choice but to exile those people. Suzaku honored the deal he made, even if Zero twisted it against him.

[Nogitsune]

Such as...?

I listed some of them.

Well, I could actually name a few, but they weren't the kind that the anime intended to point out, and tend to be the same sort of mistakes/flaws that Mary Sues make but never own up to. Like how she berates Suzaku for not being grateful for Zero saving his life... the episode after Suzaku saved the lives of a million Zeroes.

So?
If I was a Zero fangirl and hadn't known Suzaku very well, then I would probably have wanted to kick his butt for that, too.

That reminds me... I thought it was hilarious when Lelouch said that he would give Suzaku to Kaguya if he won the game against Schneizel. xD
Too bad it didn't come to that. ;P

[Eliarine]

By one character's opinion he saved those lives, but he is not solely responsible for it. He was also going to go along with the other Britannians before Romeyer's impulsiveness got to him. He avoided the slippery slope as he manages time and again, but he was hardly all about saving them the entire time.

Lelouch played on his sympathies knowing he would react as such. Suzaku was led into a situation where he had no choice but to exile those people. Suzaku honored the deal he made, even if Zero twisted it against him.

Lloyd wasn't wrong. As you keep proving.

[Willowhugger]

I think the best part of Suzaku is that every single thing he does from the very start of his life until the time that he takes part in killing Lelouch is a mistake. Suzaku is a fool but it's hard to hate him, given the fact that up until killing Euphemia, he's mostly operating under bad information.

(i.e. That he's not working for the British Nazi Party)

Only after Euphemia dies, he's honestly just not caring. Really, can you blame him? I'd have killed Lelouch dead.

That doesn't mean he's not a complete idiot for most of what he does.

[Rising Dragon]

I think the best part of Suzaku is that every single thing he does from the very start of his life until the time that he takes part in killing Lelouch is a mistake. Suzaku is a fool but it's hard to hate him, given the fact that up until killing Euphemia, he's mostly operating under bad information.

Hard to hate him?

You weren't here before Turn 21, were you?

[blitz1/2]

Hard to hate him?

You weren't here before Turn 21, were you?

I hated him for joining up with Lulu. It;s like they just threw his character out the window.

[Rising Dragon]

I hated him for joining up with Lulu. It;s like they just threw his character out the window.

You're one of the few, then. Most people here hated Suzaku until he joined up with Lelouch, then they thought he was a badass and a saint and could do no wrong.

[blitz1/2]

You're one of the few, then. Most people here hated Suzaku until he joined up with Lelouch, then they thought he was a badass and a saint and could do no wrong.

And I am proud for that. Well people HATED Suzaku because he OPPOSED Lelouch and they riddicule him for an near-impossible goal.

[Willowhugger]

And I am proud for that. Well people HATED Suzaku because he OPPOSED Lelouch and they riddicule him for an near-impossible goal.

Even I was exasperated with Suzaku the entire time.

It's one thing to want to change things for the Japanese.

It's another to side with their oppressors.

[Nogitsune]

Hm. I always adored Suzaku, no matter what he did.
I only wanted to slap him sometimes. ;P

[Dean_the_Young]

Even I was exasperated with Suzaku the entire time.

It's one thing to want to change things for the Japanese.

It's another to side with their oppressors.
When you aren't in a position of strength? Hardly.

Look at Iraq: who's having a bigger say in getting the US out, and in how the country will look afterwards; the insurgency, or the the people who've cooperated with the Coalition Troops? Hint: the insurgency hasn't been able to push coalition troops out.

[bladeofdarkness]

but he wasnt trying to push britannia out
he was trying to make japan except its defeat by showing them that even an eleven can be a Knight (at least that was what he was doing after euphie got involved)

P.S
the number one motivation for the US to pull out of iraq
are the public opinon of the american people
who (naturally) are rather inclined to dislike coffins with with an american flag over them

[Willowhugger]

When you aren't in a position of strength? Hardly.

Look at Iraq: who's having a bigger say in getting the US out, and in how the country will look afterwards; the insurgency, or the the people who've cooperated with the Coalition Troops? Hint: the insurgency hasn't been able to push coalition troops out.

That's the problem though. Suzaki is solidifying the control of Britannia on Japan. The United States' occupation on Iraq is different from annexation, despite fears to the contrary.

Suzaku also doesn't realize just how *BAD* Brtiannia is in many places. To be fair, Clovis isn't really as common a leader as you might think either.

As bad as Britainnia is, it might be tolerable if not for the fact that its lead by King George crossed with Hitler.

[blitz1/2]

That's the problem though. Suzaki is solidifying the control of Britannia on Japan. The United States' occupation on Iraq is different from annexation, despite fears to the contrary.

Suzaku also doesn't realize just how *BAD* Brtiannia is in many places. To be fair, Clovis isn't really as common a leader as you might think either.

As bad as Britainnia is, it might be tolerable if not for the fact that its lead by King George crossed with Hitler.


I thought Suzaku realised that Britannia needed to correct the government, so that was why he joined the army.

I think his intentions were not to oppress the Japanese more but rather putting his plans to work (let Britannians change their views about Japanese), you can't really do that when you have a Japanese hotbed insurgency. (he probably wanted to suppress the insurgency and then correct the government after the Britannians changed their view (probably a few years down the road))

[Willowhugger]

I thought Suzaku realised that Britannia needed to correct the government, so that was why he joined the army.

I think his intentions were not to oppress the Japanese more but rather putting his plans to work (let Britannians change their views about Japanese), you can't really do that when you have a Japanese hotbed insurgency. (he probably wanted to suppress the insurgency and then correct the government after the Britannians changed their view (probably a few years down the road))

Yeah, unfortunately, that again boils down to the viewpoint that it accepts annexation as a given. Suzaku's doing so strikes many as treasonous, even if it is the more "realistic" viewpoint.

[Dean_the_Young]

Yeah, unfortunately, that again boils down to the viewpoint that it accepts annexation as a given. Suzaku's doing so strikes many as treasonous, even if it is the more "realistic" viewpoint.
Pretty much. One of those fundamental differences between Lelouch and Suzaku is who they believe holds the overwhelming and decisive power; Lelouch believes he does, while Suzaku believes that its Britannia. Both of them just align themselves on what they believe would be the victorious side, so that they can work from the best position possible.

[bladeofdarkness]

but all that talk about suzaku's beliefs only really cover season 1
from the start of season 2 he actively aids britannia in conquering more countries and inslaveing more people
and he does so with the aim of gainning more power to effect more change for "area 11" alone (the KoO can rule one area of his choosing)
Lelouch still sticks to his own idea of how to change the world but suzaku's way had changed considerbly

[Willowhugger]

but all that talk about suzaku's beliefs only really cover season 1
from the start of season 2 he actively aids britannia in conquering more countries and inslaveing more people
and he does so with the aim of gainning more power to effect more change for "area 11" alone (the KoO can rule one area of his choosing)
Lelouch still sticks to his own idea of how to change the world but suzaku's way had changed considerbly

At that point, Suzaku has pretty much sold his soul to the Devil. Part of it has to do with the fact that he actually believes Britannia is evil by this point. It's just an evil that he intends to use to his own advantage. I suspect it might have to do with the fact that Charles doesn't give two licks about his daughter's death and that he realizes the Japanese will never ever, ever, ever forgive the Britainnians. So the idea of peacefully sliding them into the Brit system is totally shot to Hell forever.

To be fair, "S*** you, I've got mine." Is not exactly a bad philosophy when your world is totally shot to Hell.

[bladeofdarkness]

keep in mind that the contrast in his actions has been there since day 1 (between heroic idealizem and down right evil)
in ep 2 the britannian army is butchering people in shinjiku
lelouch hooks up with ougi's group and leads them to victory (there by protecting the people that were being killed off moments ago by britannia
so the britannian forces take a beateing and lose much of its men and mecha's

suzaku goes in like a traditional mecha hero and single handedly defeates all the big bad terrorists all on his own (with his new cool mecha)
takes all of them out without killing any of them
he even attacks the almost kills the leader of the terrorists while doing it (he gets to run away in the end however)
and he also saves a woman who is falling to her death IN MID BATTLE
and leads to a great victory for britannia
very heroic
except for one thing ...

the "terrorists" were keeping the civilians from being butchered by the britannian army
now that suzaku beat them all the army can (and does) move right back in and finish the job (read: finish the massacre)
you'd think he'd rememeber about that part (what his army was doing all that time)
its only thanks to the "terroroist leader" that the full on massacre of every man woman and child in shinjiku is averted

[NyxOne]

Uh...I thought that Clovis stopped the massacre by Lelouch's order to before it continued on? The most I saw of its continuation was the Brits about to slaughter Kallen, Ougi, Tamaki and the rest, not further civilian butchery.

[bladeofdarkness]

Uh...I thought that Clovis stopped the massacre by Lelouch's order to before it continued on? The most I saw of its continuation was the Brits about to slaughter Kallen, Ougi, Tamaki and the rest, not further civilian butchery.

there were many civilians there
and that was the one part they showed on screen
after the that you see a scene with many people walking away (ougi's group included) in ep 3 in the first minute (before the scene with clovis)

[Willowhugger]

Yes, by that point, the Britt army had also been royally smacked down by Lelouch as well.

[bladeofdarkness]

and suzaku's actions saved them
he turned what would have been a defeat into a great victory
too bad he did it for THE WRONG SIDE
the resistance were fighting to allow the civilans to get away from the battlefield (kallen and ougi say that its to insure that the only ones who are trapped are the memberes of the resistance)
lelouch's actions helped push the army away and prevent the massacre
and since suzaku's actions put an end to that
well...

his way of acting is very heroic (even lelouch comments on how strange it is to see him save people in mid battle)
but its for the wrong team (he is the hero of the villain team)
and he stays with it even after they pin him for killing clovis and ingnoring the victory that he gave them

[Willowhugger]

and suzaku's actions saved them
he turned what would have been a defeat into a great victory
too bad he did it for THE WRONG SIDE
the resistance were fighting to allow the civilans to get away from the battlefield (kallen and ougi say that its to insure that the only ones who are trapped are the memberes of the resistance)
lelouch's actions helped push the army away and prevent the massacre
and since suzaku's actions put an end to that
well...

Yeah, though to be fair, its important to remember this is a crowning moment of stupidity for Suzaku not a moment of evil. He actually believed the Britannia propaganda about it being a gas leak.

[bladeofdarkness]

he was acting very much like a hero should
but he did it for the wrong team
and by then he knew that there was no poison gas

[Goldarmy]

Thought I did. He didn't do it to hide the truth. He could just let her massacre endlessly and it wouldn't reveal what he did. He did it out of mercy.

Fair enough. Lelouche didn't expect anyone discovering Geass which can be seen from his arrogant reaction to Suzaku at 23's end. He did it out of shame. But all of this doesn't change the fact that it is a poor excuse.
Suzaku joined the army because he felt guilty for killing his father, not because of any inability to stop the fighting. Hell, he outright put a stop to it by killing his father.
He joined the army from the guilt of killing his father and failing to stop deaths both. He tried to convince Genbu against an action that will kill Japanese people. It went very ugly and Japanese people still died. Of course while Suzaku actions caused deaths of Japanese, Genbu's method would have killed very much more but in Suzaku's ten year old mind he used wrong method and reached a horrible result.
Kallen may not like him, but Suzaku at the very least wanted to try to change her mind. That went out the door quick.
And this disproves my point how? They don't have a strong bond to prevent them from killing each other.
And stop trying to portray her as if they were on even ground. She couldn't fight back.
Your last point is meaningless since everyone prefers to destroy their enemies without being destroyed by them and Kallen with her Guren is no exception. They aren't chivalrous knights on a duel. They are soldiers on the opposing sides of a modern war. When you willingly pilot a war machine and kill a lot of people with it; you cannot expect some sort of mercy or fair play without waving a white flag with your hands in the air. I repeat again Kallen isn't some innocent bystander she chose to fight Brittania and she can't blame anyone if she is killed as an enemy. The same apllies to Suzaku too.
Suzaku, and pretty much only Suzaku, is the reason why Zero's plans get messed up, because he's an irregular unit.
He doesn't deal well with outside factors be it Suzaku, Cornelia, Schneizel's airship or Schneizel himself. And there are a lot of variables throughout the series(superior Knightmares, float system, Charles Geass, V.V., Geass cult).
Again, jumping to one's death is not something that can be faked.
It can be done by very very few people in anime, and Lelouche is on that list.
Hence it's a much better way of going about it.
You don't understand. They weren't forced in a position to make a choice between damning Japan or damning another country.
Despite the nonsensical nature of this, it would have been a better way to go about it. She wouldn't even remember betraying him.
Do you actually think that Kallen will feel better about being Geassed to betray Zero?
And the one using the bat is doing the same, one is still worse.
The point is neither's actions are good. The general way Lelouch used Geass was as reprehensible as Suzaku's Refrain action. Lets face it Lelouch had a giant's strength, and he used it like a giant.
And slavery is better?
He wanted Lelouch find a way that will bring peace and happiness to both Brittanians and Japanese. Total war won't bring that.
Suzaku got all put-off because Lelouch went ahead and did it after their meeting went south.
So Suzaku should have been happy that Zero has gone all out war?:confused:
He was going to tear it down. He saw it for what it was, though, even before it started up.
It was a threat only to Lelouch's private crusade; by accepting Euphemia's offer Lelouch confirmed this.
It wouldn't have been copied in other areas, because it would go against Charles' policies of discrimination.
Charles policy is this "If you are weak you deserve nothing, be you Brittanian or not". And Charles doesn't give a damn unless it disrupts Instrumentality.
Hell, the only reason he didn't put a stop to it is because he outright knew Lelouch would ruin it.
He didn't put a stop to it because it didn't hamper his plans.
Not once but twice, by two different people no less, he is outright called a man who will betray anyone to get a leg up.
Oh come on. Kanon and Bismarck were talking about the actions of post-FREIJA Suzaku.
Reform is not a one-man job. Reform is something many people fight for. This is something Suzaku doesn't realize.
It wasn't his gain because he did nothing to make it happen. it was Euphie's idea inspired by Lelouch and Nunnally.
Morbofist can you see how you contradict yourself or does your bias blind you that much?
Lelouch was using Japan's liberation as a stepping stone to further his plans, which means it is not a side-effect but an expected outcome.You didn't actually disagree with him. It doesn't counter his assertion that this is just a welcome side effect.
Suzaku had no plan whatsoever.
No he can make plans. But he doesn't have Lelouch's mental skills, charisma or his magical mind control power so his plans stay on a simple stage.
Suzaku needed to get thoroughly slapped in the face with how pointless his methods were
It wasn't his methods that are problem, the problem he isn't capable to do much alone by himself. And while he was slapped in the face; he wasn't slapped about his methods.


If Suzaku joined Lelouch, there'd be no story.

Code Geass isn't about Suzaku and Lelouch's battle of wits. It is about Lelouch's rise to power, his corruption and eventual destruction by power.
Suzaku's are more conducive to changing Britannia from the outside...Suzaku is conducive to pilot a Knightmare well nothing more; be he on the rebel side or Brittanian side
If Lelouch decided to use Geass intelligently to control key people in the government rather than waste it on gathering information about his mother, he'd fix the infrastructure rather quickly.
His decision to change system won't neceessarily negate his quest for revenge and actually most of his times in series were spent on building up his army not on information of mother. And changing the system isn't something easily done since a lot of people are part of it.
If Suzaku decided to run around in the Lancelot blowing the collective red-shirt ensign army up he'd cause way more change than he would running around as an Honorary Soldier with a death wish.
Lots of thing wrong with this statement. Suzaku receieved Lancelot from Lloyd as Kallen receieved Guren from Lelouch. The only change Suzaku could bring is the same Kallen would have brought without Lelouch. Kill some Brittanians, make Brittanians retaliate and kill alot of Japanese and finally got herself/himself killed.

Yeah, unfortunately, that again boils down to the viewpoint that it accepts annexation as a given.

Japan has been occupied for a decade. Brittania isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
Suzaku's doing so strikes many as treasonous, even if it is the more "realistic" viewpoint.
Part of it is the romanticization of the rebellion. While it feels nice to regard a rebellion as a clean case of good vs. evil; a rebel/guerilla war is simply dirty and horrible by design. And horribleness is the whole point; making the invader so sick and tired of you, so disgusted with what you do to him, and what he has to do to you, that he simply leaves. Things go to black and gray side of moral spectrum in these wars but not everyone gets this.
Part of it has to do with the fact that he actually believes Britannia is evil by this point.
No the whole of it had to do with the facts that all of his work has turned to ash, the girl he loved has been brainwashed into becoming a murderer then shot, and his best friend turned out to be a heartless monster responsible for previous events.


Lelouch still sticks to his own idea of how to change the world but suzaku's way had changed considerbly

Is that really suprising considering what happened at the end of season 1?
the "terrorists" were keeping the civilians from being butchered by the britannian army
It was solely terrorists fault to bring army upon civilians by stealing a chemical weapon in the first place(of course it wasn't chemical weapon, it was something much worse).

[morbosfist]

I'm honestly tired of debating this, as well as the endless parade of one-line quoting. You're not going to convince me different and the reverse applies. I'll cover a few points, though.

Kallen being Geassed into betraying Lelouch would leave her pissed off but fine, at which point she would channel her rage into killing Suzaku. Being refrained, on the other hand, would leave Kallen like her mother over a decent period of time, though she'd recover sooner or later. Plus, it would have bit Suzaku in the ass when Nunnally found out. Not to mention the fact that it doesn't even work like Suzaku describes it. People under the influence of Refrain don't even respond to outside stimuli, much less dumb down for free questioning. In short, it was quite simply a dumb-ass move in many ways. It's far more violent than Geass, has terrible side effects, and doesn't even work like he thinks it does. You can preach the loss of free will all you like, but the fact remains that it's a harmful hallucinogen compared to eye-contact hypnosis.

Kanon and Schneizel may have been talking about post-FLEIJA Suzaku, but that doesn't matter. Suzaku proved himself through his past actions to act exactly like this. Bismarck makes that abundantly clear because he already knew Suzaku couldn't be trusted.

The part about reform isn't contradictory. Euphy's reform was an effort started by her and approved by others. Suzaku did nothing other than stand there. And it wasn't even considered reform, just a patch to stifle the rebels. As for Suzaku's efforts in general, no, he does not even have simple plans at the beginning. He just expects things to happen. Only when he loses Euphy does he actually work out an idea.

[paranoidety]

Suzuku is reasonable, personally. His convictions are totally different from lulu's but essentially the same. It 's just sad that S and L in the contrast way.

[Eliarine]

Finally. An opening. So, as we were saying some time ago, Suzaku and Lelouch are interesting characters especially because neither is completely right or wrong. It was a nice change from the classic good guy/bad guy manichaean scenarii, and their relationship is what made me love the series so much. I was waiting for them to team up in the end and I'm glad they did (even if... yeah ;_; ).

Poor boys ;_;

[bladeofdarkness]

actually i didnt like that they joined forces at all
its not that i didnt like the idea of them working together (ep 20 of season 1 is still one of my faves)
its the WHEN of it
the two of them joining forces in ep 17 would have been awesome
joining up in ep 21 was out of nowhere

after lelouch saw (what he beileved to be) suzaku betraying him, and then saw him kill nunnaly (in ep 18)
i dont see a logical reason why he would choose to work with him at that point (he wanted to KILL HIM even before he blew nunnaly up)

and after suzaku finally had a mental breakdown (in ep 19) and was ready to do what ever it took to gain his wish (be KoO) it makes no sense for him to switch sides to lulu's side at that point
he had already made sure that he would be shnizel's KoO (in exchange for killing the emp, which happened)
he could have even gotten a nice raise by handing shnizel the one person who posed the biggest threat to him (or just his head, if he was in a hurry)
he finally had what he spent his whole life trying to gain (power to change the system from the inside)
why would he choose that moment to throw it all away and join forces with the guy who murdered his girlfriend and who's fault it was that suzaku killed millions of people

[incorrupts]

why would he choose that moment to throw it all away and join forces with the guy who murdered his girlfriend and who's fault it was that suzaku killed millions of people
This is where the word "plothole" makes its appearance. That or Taniguchi was really a fan of Dark Knight's ending.

[Eliarine]

Hum yeah, it made sense actually. Because they had a month to actually talk to each other without anyone interrupting and explain themselves. They realized that they were both being bitchy over misunderstandings and that staying ennemies wouldn't get them anywhere. So they joined forces~~

[Narona]

Hum yeah, it made sense actually. Because they had a month to actually talk to each other without anyone interrupting and explain themselves. They realized that they were both being bitchy over misunderstandings and that staying ennemies wouldn't get them anywhere. So they joined forces~~
And that's why they stated that there was a 1 month gap. To avoid the kind of comment that it was out of nowhere. They had time to talk, this is just not shown on screen.

[morbosfist]

Hum yeah, it made sense actually. Because they had a month to actually talk to each other without anyone interrupting and explain themselves. They realized that they were both being bitchy over misunderstandings and that staying ennemies wouldn't get them anywhere. So they joined forces~~Considering that a large portion of that month would have been arranging to take over as they did, and the fact that their last scene is Suzaku preparing to kill Lelouch, talking alone doesn't really cover it.

[bladeofdarkness]

why would suzaku allow for such a talk in the first place
they had one in ep 17 (before suzkua deceided that idealizem is for kids)
never mind that the guy who actually joined lelouch was not suzaku in anyway but in name
he was willing to stand around while lelouch used his geass to create an army of mind controled slaves (he even killed those who opposed him)

[incorrupts]

The fact that really left me "whut?" was that Suzu really had the flying guts to go through with the killing. I mean, do not get me wrong, i love Suzaku and Lulu equally but let's admit it, Suzaku was kinda a pansy most of times, especially when it came to killing.
Oh well.

[Eliarine]

Considering that a large portion of that month would have been arranging to take over as they did, and the fact that their last scene is Suzaku preparing to kill Lelouch, talking alone doesn't really cover it.

Considering that their main reasons for wanting to kill each other were "YOU KILLED MY GIRL" and "YOU KILLED MY SIS", confessing that both deaths weren't intended probably helped a whole lot.

[Narona]

why would suzaku allow for such a talk in the first place
they had one in ep 17 (before suzkua deceided that idealizem is for kids)
never mind that the guy who actually joined lelouch was not suzaku in anyway but in name
he was willing to stand around while lelouch used his geass to create an army of mind controled slaves (he even killed those who opposed him)
They had the talk in the SoA I think, since in 23, Lelouch has a flashback and says "the choice I made that day" something like that. The scene shows him looking at suzaku in the soa. So I guess they talked right after the comment from c.c. in 21, mainly about euphie and stuffs.

About Suzaku, he had a change of ideals after the Freija incident, remember what he said to Gino and before that, to Nina.

[morbosfist]

Considering that their main reasons for wanting to kill each other were "YOU KILLED MY GIRL" and "YOU KILLED MY SIS", confessing that both deaths weren't intended probably helped a whole lot.Lelouch never blamed Suzaku for Nunnally's death, as I recall. The betrayal, sure, that might work. As for Euphy's death, Lelouch treated that just as flippantly as he did the first time ("What of it?").

[Eliarine]

About Suzaku, he had a change of ideals after the Freija incident, remember what he said to Gino and before that, to Nina.

Towards the end, I guess they both realized that both methods had pros and cons, but that the best way to get what they wanted was to join forces and go for a compromise.

Lelouch never blamed Suzaku for Nunnally's death, as I recall. The betrayal, sure, that might work. As for Euphy's death, Lelouch treated that just as flippantly as he did the first time ("What of it?").

Same thing, their reasons for really hating each other were misunderstandings. Suzaku probably gathered that Lelouch didn't really want to kill Euphie during that one month if the guy didn't tell him outright, and a simple "I didn't betray you, btw" would cover the rest.

[Nogitsune]

*nods her head to that*
I really don't see any problem with Lelouch and Suzaku joining forces when they did.
In fact, it made perfect sense to me.

[morbosfist]

Same thing, their reasons for really hating each other were misunderstandings. Suzaku probably gathered that Lelouch didn't really want to kill Euphie during that one month if the guy didn't tell him outright, and a simple "I didn't betray you, btw" would cover the rest.Fair enough on that point.

[Narona]

Towards the end, I guess they both realized that both methods had pros and cons, but that the best way to get what they wanted was to join forces and go for a compromise.

IIRc Lelouch stated somewhere that if suzaku and him would have worked together, they would be unstoppable, right?

I guess they came to the conclusion that if they work together, they will success to accomplish what they want.

Then Lelouch explained to him his ZR plan (I guess that's what lelouch meant by "the choice he made that day" = ZR). Suzaku also got what he wanted at the start, to avenge Euphie, since he killed lelouch. Even if he even asked to lelouch if he really wants that (in the flashback in ep25), so Suzaku would have forgiven him I think if lelouch had a change of mind. Suzaku was not a bad person in my eyes.

[Charred Knight]

That's the problem though. Suzaki is solidifying the control of Britannia on Japan. The United States' occupation on Iraq is different from annexation, despite fears to the contrary.

Suzaku also doesn't realize just how *BAD* Brtiannia is in many places. To be fair, Clovis isn't really as common a leader as you might think either.

As bad as Britainnia is, it might be tolerable if not for the fact that its lead by King George crossed with Hitler.

From everything we saw no Britannia was not tolerable, not even the Nazis where as bad as Britannia. Was Clovis uncommon? Considering that most Britannians where protrayed as Racist, then the answer is no. The only Britannians in the government who where not racist was Guilford (who just follows the orders of Cornelia who was racist), Dalton (the only major member of the government who wasn't racist), Lloyd, and Celcilia, and finally Euphemia the only member whose head wasn't up its ass in the entire first season.

I could understand if Britannia had its own resistance movement like the Nazis did, or at least had traitors who hated how the acted like the Nazis where full of, but they didn't their was no Schindler, nor a Stauffenberg. They where only people like Lloyd, a nice guy but also largely amoral, who cared more about creating weapons than moral duty. Sure their where some that changed, but Villeta was the only person who actually had any real time to develop, Cornelia just reappeared no longer racist.

The Britannians took loyalty to the point of being robots, to me Code Geass shows the negative side of loyalty where morality is never questioned, and orders all followed through with no questions asked. Jeremiah is never protrayed as evil after his defeat by Kallen, his just loyal to a fault. If Lelouch asked Jermiah to kill every last Japanese person he would.

By and large, the Britannians where fairly generic villains, its going to take years for Britannia to be reformed, and I don't know if Suzaku, or Nunnaly could do it. I think if Lelouch was leader, maybe he could have accomplished it much like how MacArthur helped reform the Japanese, but with people as evil as Britannia, it will take years possibly decades for the reformation.

[Nogitsune]

From everything we saw no Britannia was not tolerable, not even the Nazis where as bad as Britannia. Was Clovis uncommon? Considering that most Britannians where protrayed as Racist, then the answer is no.

Clovis was not as much of a racist as most Britannians.
He wasn't a defender of human right, no, but he never excluded the Japanese from things like the amusement parks that were built on his orders, and he once said: "The Elevens who let Lelouch die are utterly despicable, but now that I hear he had a friend, perhaps I'll have to go easy on them."
Sure, in the end, Clovis ordered a massacre, but until then, he was relatively harmless. He just didn't care.
Give that guy a gun and tell him to shoot a japanese child/woman/maybe even man with his own hands, and I'm quite sure he won't be able to do it.
Clovis might not have been completely devoid of prejudice, and he sure as hell wasn't a selfless person, but ordering things from a distance is always easier.

The only Britannians in the government who where not racist was Guilford (who just follows the orders of Cornelia who was racist)

Cornelia was not a racist.
She just clearly distinguished between those who rule and those who are ruled over.
If there had been colonies of Britannians somewhere who had rebelled, she would have treated them the same way she treated "Elevens".

Dalton (the only major member of the government who wasn't racist), Lloyd, and Celcilia, and finally Euphemia the only member whose head wasn't up its ass in the entire first season.

You forgot Schneizel.
And, probably, Odysseus.


but with people as evil as Britannia, it will take years possibly decades for the reformation.

"Evil" is a always matter of definition.
Not to mention that the Britannian civilians could be influenced quite easily.

[Eliarine]

Suzaku also got what he wanted at the start, to avenge Euphie, since he killed lelouch. Even if he even asked to lelouch if he really wants that (in the flashback in ep25), so Suzaku would have forgiven him I think if lelouch had a change of mind. Suzaku was not a bad person in my eyes.

I think Suzaku forgave Lelouch in the end, and what he wanted the most was to put a stop to war. And since he and Lelouch can do anything together...they did. ;_;

not even the Nazis where as bad as Britannia.

...what.

[incorrupts]

"Evil" is a always matter of definition.
Not to mention that the Britannian civilians could be influenced quite easily.

Hmm, sometimes truth is absolute. There is bad and wrong in a lot of things. And Britannians were clearly a bunch of shit in a lot of occasions.

[Nogitsune]

I think Suzaku forgave Lelouch in the end, and what he wanted the most was to put a stop to war. And since he and Lelouch can do anything together...they did. ;_;



...what.

I agree with that.
The "what" included. xD

[NyxOne]

Okay, Charred. Okay. A racist, supremacist dictator killing 6 million of a single religion, and killing countless others just because they were 'different', isn't worse than relatively bloodless imperial expansion, massacres aside.

Did you take the stupid pill today? Or are you a Hitlerite?

[Narona]

I think Suzaku forgave Lelouch in the end, and what he wanted the most was to put a stop to war. And since he and Lelouch can do anything together...they did. ;_;

...what.
Maybe, but before the Damocles incident, do you think that Suzaku already forgave lelouch? I mean, to kill lelouch was part of their promise. And suzaku said to him to not forgive that promise when Lelouch was shaken to have seen that Nunnaly was alive.

In the end, he asked lelouch if he really wanted to do it (to be killed), but did they really have another choice?

[Charred Knight]

I think Suzaku forgave Lelouch in the end, and what he wanted the most was to put a stop to war. And since he and Lelouch can do anything together...they did. ;_;



...what.
By that I mean Nazi Germany, not the actual Nazi Party, the Nazi Party was much worse than even the Britannian Nobles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Widerstand

While the Nazis where full of people that can barely be described as people, Nazi Germany itself still had people who hated how the Nazi's acted, and planned to overthrow Hitler. Even when Schneizel began his formal plan his new plan was frankly just as bad, and didn't include any plans to reform the Britannian people.

The best Britannia had where people like Guilford, Jeremiah, and Gino who where people loyal to the point of being robots. To me Codee Geass could be considered a deconstruction of the noble idea of loyalty, showing what it can do to people when the people they are loyal to are evil.

Okay, Charred. Okay. A racist, supremacist dictator killing 6 million of a single religion, and killing countless others just because they were 'different', isn't worse than relatively bloodless imperial expansion, massacres aside.

Did you take the stupid pill today? Or are you a Hitlerite?

I should have been more specific in mentioning Nazi Germany, instead of Nazi Party.

[NyxOne]

Yes, you know what else Nazi Germany had? They had the Gestapo and SS that rounded up gypsies, homosexuals, Jews, Slavs and others who weren't Aryan and ferried them off to death camps. They had youth movements that brainwashed children so deeply that they would, without hesitation, send their parents to concentration camps if they so much as uttered one word of dissent about the Nazi regime. It had soldiers killing their own people because, even though they couldn't hope to and didn't want to fight against the Russians, they thought they were deserters, and they strung them up on lamp posts.

What's the worst we see Britannia do? Probably...Clovis' massacre (since Euphie's, though larger, was the fault of Lelouch) and expansionism.

[Sonae]

I believe Suzaku forgave Lelouch, but their plan was already too far to go back and Lelouch wanted it that way. Lelouch couldn't just turn around and start acting nice again, no one would trust him.

-feels random- '^^

Well, I like Suzaku, even though I'm with Lelouch the whole way, I don't hate Suzaku

[Narona]

I believe Suzaku forgave Lelouch, but their plan was already too far to go back and Lelouch wanted it that way. Lelouch couldn't just turn around and start acting nice again, no one would trust him.

-feels random- '^^

Well, I like Suzaku, even though I'm with Lelouch the whole way, I don't hate Suzaku
In the end from the scene we see in the flashback, I think the same thing. Suzaku forgave lelouch, but he asked him something while their plan was already too far to go back. After what happened on the Damocles, Lelouch had no other choice.

Now that I think about it, when C.C. took the place of Lelouch as Zero, I questionned her height, and people told me that Lelouch uses "Magic Shoes" XD, but when he is dressed as an emperor, lelouch can't use that kind of magic shoes, so I don't see how c.c. would have been able to disguise herself as emperor lelouch.

So, Suzaku asked him that, and it shows to us imo, that he forgave lelouch. But Lelouch had no other choice at that time.

And I am a suzaku fan too <3

[demon_god04]

I think Suzaku forgave Lelouch in the end, and what he wanted the most was to put a stop to war. And since he and Lelouch can do anything together...they did. ;_;

I'd say that rather then forgiveness that Suzaku decided to believe in the Lelouch that both Euphie and Shirley believed in. His monologue about how Euphie did not give away Lelouch's identity in the end and that he was sure that Shirley felt the same meant that they believed in Lelouch. I did not see that as forgiveness but rather an acceptance of sorts to the point.

[Nogitsune]

What's the worst we see Britannia do? Probably...Clovis' massacre (since Euphie's, though larger, was the fault of Lelouch) and expansionism.

Not to mention that Clovis didn't order the massacre just because he was a racist, and managed to govern Area 11 for three years without randomly killing anyone.
Considering he was indifferent to almost everything, that's really a big plus.


I did not see that as forgiveness but rather an acceptance of sorts to the point.

Hm... you may have a point there.
Oh well. Let's just say they were best friends again in the end.

[Charred Knight]

Yes, you know what else Nazi Germany had? They had the Gestapo and SS that rounded up gypsies, homosexuals, Jews, Slavs and others who weren't Aryan and ferried them off to death camps. They had youth movements that brainwashed children so deeply that they would, without hesitation, send their parents to concentration camps if they so much as uttered one word of dissent about the Nazi regime. It had soldiers killing their own people because, even though they couldn't hope to and didn't want to fight against the Russians, they thought they were deserters, and they strung them up on lamp posts.

What's the worst we see Britannia do? Probably...Clovis' massacre (since Euphie's, though larger, was the fault of Lelouch) and expansionism.

I am pretty sure the Gestapo, and SS where part of the nazi party, which I explained was not what I meant. I was simply pointing out that as bad as Nazi Germany was, they at least had people who gave a damn about the Jewish. The only problem was that Jewish sympathizing generally ended in death. Except for Euphemia the Britannians didn't really consider the Japanese human beings.

Do you think Tokyo became a dump on its own? Compare the tokyo of our world with the Tokyo of Code Geass.

The Tokyo ghetto looks like a war zone, they clearly hadn't done any repairs since the invasion, and the people where living in poverty, and frankly no one cared. It wasn't the Britannians problem that the Japanese where not britannians.

[Eliarine]

I agree with Sonae and Narona about forgiveness.

I'd say that rather then forgiveness that Suzaku decided to believe in the Lelouch that both Euphie and Shirley believed in. His monologue about how Euphie did not give away Lelouch's identity in the end and that he was sure that Shirley felt the same meant that they believed in Lelouch. I did not see that as forgiveness but rather an acceptance of sorts to the point.

And I'd say it's both. I don't think there was any animosity left between the two of them by the time they completed Zero Requiem.

[NyxOne]

I'm pretty sure Euphemia wasn't the only sympathizer.

[demon_god04]

Hm... you may have a point there.
Oh well. Let's just say they were best friends again in the end.

Not saying they were not best friends again in the end, but there are still some things that could not, and likely should not be forgiven. And Lelouch himself is not looking for forgiveness either.

[Charred Knight]

I'm pretty sure Euphemia wasn't the only sympathizer.

Inside of Britannia (not counting the Britannians in Japan) the best we got was Lloyd, and Cecilia, who created weapons so that Britannia could enforce its reign of terror on others, and Gino who only thought about loyally serving his Emperor.

I wish Code Geass went more for the loyalty to a fault thing, but most Britannians where shown to be evil, even in the first episode "Those who shoot should be prepared to be shot" empasize that Brtiannian soldiers joined the military not to defend Britannia, but just to kill people.

As for Bloodless expansion how the hell do you think Britannia takes over countries? Asks nicely?

[Sonae]

As for Bloodless expansion how the hell do you think Britannia takes over countries? Asks nicely?

Lol! I imagined that!

Charles: "Can we take over your country? PLEASE!" *innocent puppy eyes*
Genbu: O.o "Wtf? No!"

XDDD

[Narona]

Lol! I imagined that!

Charles: "Can we take over your country? PLEASE!" *innocent puppy eyes*
Genbu: O.o "Wtf? No!"

XDDD
The hilarious thing is that in reality, charles hated Wars and such with a passion XD. He only did that for the sake of his plan to destroy the gods.

[Eliarine]

Not saying they were not best friends again in the end, but there are still some things that could not, and likely should not be forgiven. And Lelouch himself is not looking for forgiveness either.

But it was also Shirley's words that allowed the two of them to be best friends again, and what she told Suzaku was that he could forgive Lelouch alright, he just didn't want to. It might not have been easy...but I think they did forgive each other.

[Grey Dawn]

On the subject of Britannia's atrocities, what really got me was in stage 9. A gang of men were openly abusing a helpless man in public and no one raised a hand or a word against them. That's a pretty severe case of public opinion against the Numbers.

One thing I will note though is that discimination can and clearly did have a purpose. That is, a nation can use discrimination against a minority to raise nationalistic feelings and to seize their assets for money. That raises support and funds for war, and national pride if you win, and Britannia was a war mongering nation. These factors were all in full display for Britannia.

[Charred Knight]

The hilarious thing is that in reality, charles hated Wars and such with a passion XD. He only did that for the sake of his plan to destroy the gods.

Which always pissed me off, as stupid as Britannians not under the Royal Family are, you would think Charles could have changed the way the world works instead of gaining complete control of Britannia just so he could recreate Third Impact.

[Nogitsune]

Which always pissed me off, as stupid as Britannians not under the Royal Family are, you would think Charles could have changed the way the world works instead of gaining complete control of Britannia just so he could recreate Third Impact.

Sadly, Charles wasn't exactly sane.

[Narona]

Sadly, Charles wasn't exactly sane.
I believe that he was about to change. Yes, Marianne and him accepted to destroy the gods, but then, they made their life together, they lived together, they experienced happiness, happy family, and most of all they had babies together.

V.V. said it, Charles had changed because of Marianne. And I think that Marianne was about to change her mind too. They were happy at that time (her + charles + their children). And I think that maybe, they quetsionned themselves about killing the gods and the promise with V.V.. But then V.V. killed her.

After that, keep in mind that the plan to destroy the gods became also the only way for charles to resurrect (in a way) Marianne. In the process, yeah, they became bad parents, but before marianne's death, they were not.

[Sonae]

You just made me imagine Charles playing with his children! It was kind of cute <3 You've also made me hate Charles a little less and gave me a reason to hate V.V. instead.

[Charred Knight]

I believe that he was about to change. Yes, Marianne and him accepted to destroy the gods, but then, they made their life together, they lived together, they experienced happiness, happy family, and most of all they had babies together.

V.V. said it, Charles had changed because of Marianne. And I think that Marianne was about to change her mind too. They were happy at that time (her + charles + their children). And I think that maybe, they quetsionned themselves about killing the gods and the promise with V.V.. But then V.V. killed her.

After that, keep in mind that the plan to destroy the gods became also the only way for charles to resurrect (in a way) Marianne. In the process, yeah, they became bad parents, but before marianne's death, they were not.

Considering that is never mentioned anywhere, I am going with Charles being batshit insane.

It's not like Marianne was protrayed as a paragon of goodness, she obviously was willing to go along with the plan,and V.V probably killed her simply out of jealousy.

[Nogitsune]

I believe that he was about to change. Yes, Marianne and him accepted to destroy the gods, but then, they made their life together, they lived together, they experienced happiness, happy family, and most of all they had babies together.

I don't think having a happy family did that much for Charles' sanity.
Sure, he loved them in his own way, but it was mostly Marianne who changed (for the worse), and Charles had absolutely no problem with permanently crippling his daughter right after his wife's "death" and sending her and Lelouch off to an enemy country.
For their own protection.
I don't think that man was capable of realizing that maybe "killing the gods" wasn't as great as he always imagined.
But we'll never know for sure.

V.V. said it, Charles had changed because of Marianne. And I think that Marianne was about to change her mind too. They were happy at that time (her + charles + their children). And I think that maybe, they quetsionned themselves about killing the gods and the promise with V.V.. But then V.V. killed her.

V.V. wasnt the epitome of sanity, either.
I think he was just jealous that Marianne "took his little brother away from him".

After that, keep in mind that the plan to destroy the gods became also the only way for charles to resurrect (in a way) Marianne. In the process, yeah, they became bad parents, but before marianne's death, they were not.

Charles never was a loving father to Lelouch and Nanali... or any of his children.
I'm sure Marianne was once a good mother, and maybe she would have changed for the better again, but Charles?
I doubt it.

[morbosfist]

This has nothing to do with Suzaku, just to put that out there.
Charles never was a loving father to Lelouch and Nanali... or any of his children.
I'm sure Marianne was once a good mother, and maybe she would have changed for the better again, but Charles?
I doubt it.Marianne's own memories beg to differ. See episode 11 when Anya has the memory flash.

[Sonae]

Well, you never know...My opinions waver easily, I only had it for a second. I still hate Charles

Lol. You know what's funny. Charles died the day I got my birthday presents <3

[Narona]

Considering that is never mentioned anywhere, I am going with Charles being batshit insane.




V.V. wasnt the epitome of sanity, either.
I think he was just jealous that Marianne "took his little brother away from him".

I never said I was right but lady and gentleman, read me, I just stated what V.V. said to marianne before killing her. That Charles had changed (IIRC v.v. said also something about the promise). In what way, I can't be sure and never stated fact, I just point a possibility.

[Sonae]

Before, Charles was devoted to the plan with V.V.
Marianne appeared, He fell in love and V.V. got jealous because him and Charles were becoming more distant. V.V.

Wait, wasn't their pact never to lie to each other? -is confused-

[Nogitsune]

This has nothing to do with Suzaku, just to put that out there.
Marianne's own memories beg to differ. See episode 11 when Anya has the memory flash.

Hu?



Wait, wasn't their pact never to lie to each other? -is confused-

Yep.

[morbosfist]

Hu?In Turn 11, Marianne's memories show Charles watching over Lelouch and Nunnally, so therefore he wasn't a completely neglectful father.

[Sonae]

What? -goes to rewatch Turn 11-

[Nogitsune]

In Turn 11, Marianne's memories show Charles watching over Lelouch and Nunnally, so therefore he wasn't a completely neglectful father.

Ah. Interesting. o.o
But in my opinion, that doesn't change anything.
Lelouch and Nunally didn't need a father who just watched over them from a distance, and Charles was simply not perceptive (and, more importantly, sane) enough to realize that.

[Charred Knight]

In Turn 11, Marianne's memories show Charles watching over Lelouch and Nunnally, so therefore he wasn't a completely neglectful father.

And that changes what?

To get my sympathy you actually have to have actual development, Charles was nothing more than a comic book villain, whose only use was screaming "All Hail Britannia" and being mysterious.

Getting flashes, and having a nutcase mention changes does nothing.

[demon_god04]

But it was also Shirley's words that allowed the two of them to be best friends again, and what she told Suzaku was that he could forgive Lelouch alright, he just didn't want to. It might not have been easy...but I think they did forgive each other.

That only works if you ignore Suzaku's mindset and his character. If Suzaku really did forgive Lelouch completely then it is inconsistent with how easily he drove that sword into Lelouch. Lelouch's death was his atonement and Suzaku having to live with the guilt of killing his friend and living for the world is his atonement. This is in stark contrast to Shirley in that she did not require any sort of atonement for what Lelouch has done but rather she forgave him.

Suzaku chose to believe in him on account of Euphie and Shirley, which shows that he is believing in Lelouch that he did not want to cause the death of either of the girls but confronted Lelouch for Euphie's death after because regardless of circumstances Lelouch was still the cause of Euphie's death. As I said, they managed to rekindle the friendship they had but at the same time what Lelouch had done was not forgiven and forgiveness was not even what he sought. It was pretty evident in how he chose to end his life.

[Willowhugger]

Given my name is Charles, I find these posts funny.

:)

That only works if you ignore Suzaku's mindset and his character. If Suzaku really did forgive Lelouch completely then it is inconsistent with how easily he drove that sword into Lelouch.

Suzaku asked Lelouch if he really wanted to do it. My opinion is, at that point, Suzaku had forgiven Lelouch completely and was offering him an out. Suzaku would always know that Lelouch was responsible for Euphemia's death but by this point, Suzaku would know it was an accident and frankly that he was no longer in any position to judge his former friend.

[Eliarine]

That only works if you ignore Suzaku's mindset and his character. If Suzaku really did forgive Lelouch completely then it is inconsistent with how easily he drove that sword into Lelouch.

Suzaku did not drive that sword into Lelouch "easily". Unless you're ignoring the giant tears on his face right after he did. The steadiness was all for show, as this is what people would expect from Zero. But I highly doubt that it was easy. He just knew that there was no other way by then.

[Airi]

If Suzaku really did forgive Lelouch completely then it is inconsistent with how easily he drove that sword into Lelouch.

From this statement, it looks like you didn't watch that part at all....:eyebrow:

[demon_god04]

Suzaku did not drive that sword into Lelouch "easily". Unless you're ignoring the giant tears on his face right after he did. The steadiness was all for show, as this is what people would expect from Zero. But I highly doubt that it was easy. He just knew that there was no other way by then.

No, he agreed with Lelouch's martyr complex and need for atonement for past wrongs. He cried because he killed his friend with his own hands but you saw there was no hesitation on his face. Not forgiving someone does not mean that they could still not be friends. It just means that what Lelouch did was something that neither of them feel is something that should be forgiven. Which once again was the reason Lelouch chose death as his atonement. And again forgiveness was never something Lelouch sought or even expected from Suzaku which is apparent with the Zero Requiem plan where Lelouch told Suzaku that as they agreed Suzaku would be the one to kill him.

From this statement, it looks like you didn't watch that part at all....:eyebrow:

Because Suzaku has been shown to be able to kill his friends period? :eyebrow: Maybe you'd like to read the rest of the statement as I explained my line of thinking on that.

[Nogitsune]

To be honest, I'm not sure if Suzaku "forgave" Lelouch.
He was always better at forgiving other people than at forgiving himself, but I also think that he felt that both of them needed to atone for their sins.
He left Lelouch a way out, yes, but that's because he was still Suzaku and couldn't possibly kill his best friend in cold-blood.
Forgiveness, acceptance... when it comes to those to, it doesn't really matter.
In the end, Suzaku understood Lelouch, and Lelouch never blamed Suzaku for anything - and that's all that seems important to me.

[eaglei3]

To be honest, I'm not sure if Suzaku "forgave" Lelouch.
He was always better at forgiving other people than at forgiving himself, but I also think that he felt that both of them needed to atone for their sins.
He left Lelouch a way out, yes, but that's because he was still Suzaku and couldn't possibly kill his best friend in cold-blood.
Forgiveness, acceptance... when it comes to those to, it doesn't really matter.
In the end, Suzaku understood Lelouch, and Lelouch never blamed Suzaku for anything - and that's all that seems important to me.


I really don't think he ever fully forgave Lelouch either. I believe what allowed him to kill Lelouch in the end was the fact that he still wanted revenge for Euphy. I just believe that he agreed with Lelouch in his plans of fixing the world and went with them.

[Willowhugger]

I disagree.

Suzaku agreeing with Lelouch's plan is grossly out of character. It was because of his friendship that he could kill Lelouch not revenge.

[morbosfist]

I disagree.

Suzaku agreeing with Lelouch's plan is grossly out of character. It was because of his friendship that he could kill Lelouch not revenge.He kills him because he's a friend? No. A real friend would talk Lelouch out of such an insane course of action, not actively push him into doing it. Even if he regretted it, Suzaku killing couldn't not be partially motivated by revenge. This was their way of punishing themselves and each other at the same time, not some plan two friends cook up.

[Charred Knight]

He kills him because he's a friend? No. A real friend would talk Lelouch out of such an insane course of action, not actively push him into doing it. Even if he regretted it, Suzaku killing couldn't not be partially motivated by revenge. This was their way of punishing themselves and each other at the same time, not some plan two friends cook up.

All you need to do is compare Gurren Lagann with Code Geass, Simon shows what friends do, Lelouch isn't going to fix the world dead. Lelouch's death isn't going to make Britannia any less racist, it isn't going to restore the damage that Britannia has done to the world.

[demon_god04]

He kills him because he's a friend? No. A real friend would talk Lelouch out of such an insane course of action, not actively push him into doing it. Even if he regretted it, Suzaku killing couldn't not be partially motivated by revenge. This was their way of punishing themselves and each other at the same time, not some plan two friends cook up.

Which I thought was very apparent within the anime as they were both very much motivated by a driving sense for atonement. Though I do believe they did reconcile as friends but it was still apparent that Suzaku still holds Lelouch as responsible for what happened to Euphie.

[Eliarine]

A real friend would talk Lelouch out of such an insane course of action, not actively push him into doing it.

Well, Lelouch and Suzaku's friendship never really fit in the classical definition of the term. But they were friends in the truest sense of the word in the end. Director's word, if I'm not mistaken.

[Nogitsune]

Well, Lelouch and Suzaku's friendship never really fit in the classical definition of the term. But they were friends in the truest sense of the word in the end. Director's word, if I'm not mistaken.

*nods her head to that*

[Narona]

Well, Lelouch and Suzaku's friendship never really fit in the classical definition of the term. But they were friends in the truest sense of the word in the end. Director's word, if I'm not mistaken.
I still think that they overcame what happened and were friend again. Suzaku killed Lelouch, but in a way, I wonder who got the worst place of the two. Suzaku Kururugi is dead, only Zero remains, and people should remember what Lelouch told to him just before dying. In a way, Suzaku and Lelouch died at the same time. And they gave up in everything including their own happiness as living humans for the sake of the world, And imo, they did that as friends who aimed for the same goal.

[eaglei3]

Well, Lelouch and Suzaku's friendship never really fit in the classical definition of the term. But they were friends in the truest sense of the word in the end. Director's word, if I'm not mistaken.

Yes, they could still be somewhat friends at the end, but I refuse to lose my point that Euphy's death was what allowed Suzaku to kill Lelouch in the end. I will explain.

At the end of Season 1, Suzaku clearly viewed Lelouch as a total monster. In Season 2, Suzaku clearly showed at different points that Euphy's death still weighed in on his heart during encounters with Lelouch. For Suzaku to continually bring it up, it definitely was not a resolved matter to him. Even before the start of Zero Requiem, Suzaku declared Lelouch as the enemy of Euphy

However, with Lelouch's reasoning and Zero Requiem plan, (Also the prior event of face stomping :D) Suzaku began to see that Lelouch was not the monster he thought he had become. (Suzaku also knew younger Lelouch where their friendship first began.) Since he had that friendship to begin with Lelouch, he felt he could trust him with his plans and helped Lelouch with them. IMO, I believe that is the friendship Okouchi mentioned. In other words, there was two parts to it. One side of Suzaku's heart heavily leaned on the old Lelouch and wanted to help him, while the other side still cried and wanted revenge over Euphy, but realized that going with Lelouch's plan would help achieve her dream of peace as well.


Oh, and I think this reasoning is pretty logical too. Think about real life with your friends when they do something that upsets you. Depending on how upsetting it was, you feel various levels of anger towards them. You can still be friends with them, but some things will always weigh heavily against them if it was a pretty bad event.

[incorrupts]

One side of Suzaku's heart heavily leaned on the old Lelouch and wanted to help him, while the other side still cried and wanted revenge over Euphy, but realized that going with Lelouch's plan would help achieve her dream of peace as well.


You pretty much hit the nail on the head with that one.

[Eliarine]

Yes, they could still be somewhat friends at the end, but I refuse to lose my point that Euphy's death was what allowed Suzaku to kill Lelouch in the end.

Well, I'm not saying Euphie's death had no impact on the friendship, just that they were friends again in the end and that I don't think it is the only thing that made him go through with the plan. That sentence about what a "real friend" would or would not do is what sounded a bit weird to me.

Since he had that friendship to begin with Lelouch, he felt he could trust him with his plans and helped Lelouch with them. IMO, I believe that is the friendship Okouchi mentioned. In other words, there was two parts to it. One side of Suzaku's heart heavily leaned on the old Lelouch and wanted to help him, while the other side still cried and wanted revenge over Euphy, but realized that going with Lelouch's plan would help achieve her dream of peace as well.

I can agree with that, but I believe that in the end Suzaku believed in Lelouch, period, not just the old one. Because IIRC, Taniguchi said that in Season 1 Lelouch and Suzaku were "only" reunited childhood friends, and that his intention with R2 was to show how this relationship turned into real friendship. Tragic friendship but...still friendship. :/

[Willowhugger]

Let's not forget the symbolism. Suzaku, for the rest of his life, will be dressed as Euphie's murderer and told how totally awesome Zero is.

They are friends.

They're just friends who are TOTALLY TOTALLY BAD FOR ONE ANOTHER.

Suzaku and Lelouch are like two drug buddies. They feed each other's worst habits.

Suzaku got to kill Lelouch, but Lelouch effectively sentenced Suzaku to a living Hell of being daily pointed out how much people.

1. Love Zero.
2. Think everything Zero did was justified.
3. How much they hated Suzaku for helping Lelouch.

Lelouch didn't care about people complaining about him because, I'm fairly sure like V for Vendatta, Lelouch considers "Zero" to be his true face (like Batman doesn't care what people say about Bruce Wayne).

Lelouch shows his friendship to Suzaku by effectively saying "You will spend the rest of your life seeing how awesome I am and how wrong you were."

[Eliarine]

They are friends.

They're just friends who are TOTALLY TOTALLY BAD FOR ONE ANOTHER.

Suzaku and Lelouch are like two drug buddies. They feed each other's worst habits.

That...is actually a very good way of putting it.

[Jaime Kordek]

Let's not forget the symbolism. Suzaku, for the rest of his life, will be dressed as Euphie's murderer and told how totally awesome Zero is.

They are friends.

They're just friends who are TOTALLY TOTALLY BAD FOR ONE ANOTHER.

Suzaku and Lelouch are like two drug buddies. They feed each other's worst habits.

Suzaku got to kill Lelouch, but Lelouch effectively sentenced Suzaku to a living Hell of being daily pointed out how much people.

1. Love Zero.
2. Think everything Zero did was justified.
3. How much they hated Suzaku for helping Lelouch.

Lelouch didn't care about people complaining about him because, I'm fairly sure like V for Vendatta, Lelouch considers "Zero" to be his true face (like Batman doesn't care what people say about Bruce Wayne).

Lelouch shows his friendship to Suzaku by effectively saying "You will spend the rest of your life seeing how awesome I am and how wrong you were."

I disagree with the idea that Zero is Lelouch's true face, but that's a Lelouch thread thing, so I'll concentrate on Suzaku. While it is true that this is going to be what happens to Suzaku, and I bet they both know that, I don't think Lelouch did that to show his friendship or anything. At the point of Zero Requiem, they were both dedicated to creating a better world, not harming one another, they just knew that the best way they had to do so involved destroying both of them. Perhaps they both felt the need to atone, but I hate the way it's described "Suzaku Got to kill Lelouch" "Lelouch Senetenced Suzaku" Both of them were fully willing and aware participants. Neither was motivated by anything like revenge or hate at that point.

[Nogitsune]

By making sure that Suzaku got "punished" as well, Lelouch gave him exactly what he wanted... no, needed.
Because, really, what do you think Suzaku would have done if he hadn't become Zero?
Just gotten over it?
Yeah, right. xD
Lelouch didn't think that Suzaku needed to atone for anything. But that didn't matter, because Suzaku would never have agreed with that.
Therefore, he gave him a "punishment" as well, and I think that's what convinced me that they now understood each other completely.

[Levy]

Lelouch didn't think that Suzaku needed to atone for anything. But that didn't matter, because Suzaku would never have agreed with that.

I guess you are right.. since it seems like the cardinal thought of the whole ZR is for Lelouch to give everyone what they wished for - someone to blame entirely, a new world of hope, a second chance, future. (Nunnaly was maybe the one he truly disappointed ^^; )
Suzaku understood that as he answered to him 'I accept this Geass'.

[Spring_sakura111]

Oh lol. How does Suzaku live as Zero anyway? I'm sure Nunnally knows it's him and I'm sure he needs to breath some fresh air and take off the mask once or thrice a day.

[eaglei3]

Oh lol. How does Suzaku live as Zero anyway? I'm sure Nunnally knows it's him and I'm sure he needs to breath some fresh air and take off the mask once or thrice a day.

I'm pretty sure we had this discussion before and pretty much concluded that the only time he has to be Zero is out in public. I'm sure there are places in the new government building or a house somewhere that he can take the mask off at times.

[Levy]

Of course, at least to eat and in the shower.... XD
no really, I guess he keeps distant and masked with anyone that is not Nunnaly, but she knows everything already, it would be at least childish of him to refuse to open up to her after a while.

[Pink-chan]

Suzaku is also a stubborn guy. I wouldn't be surprised if Nunnally never got to see his face for even once. Suzaku can do it for the sake of the promise with Lelouch. Perhaps, I will say he will only show his face to C.C. if they ever meet again. I tend to think that the time they meet again, is the time the peace is being threatened :heh:

[Spring_sakura111]

Dang I can imagine it now. I agree. Suzaku is a stubborn dude.

Nunnally: Suzaku I know it's you.
Suzaku: I am Zero.
Nunnally: S-suzaku-san..
Suzaku: WATASHI WA ZERO!
Nunnally: Let me hold your hand.. *holds hand*
Suzaku:........
Nunnally: ....You're wearing gloves..

[Airi]

No, he will show his face to Nunnaly. It's would be stupid, not stubborn.
Because it wouldn't make sense: he knows she knows!
I'm sure Nunnaly can be very persistent and extremely persuasive. ^_^
Let's not forget she has only him.

[Pink-chan]

Dang I can imagine it now. I agree. Suzaku is a stubborn dude.

Nunnally: Suzaku I know it's you.
Suzaku: I am Zero.
Nunnally: S-suzaku-san..
Suzaku: WATASHI WA ZERO!
Nunnally: Let me hold your hand.. *holds hand*
Suzaku:........
Nunnally: ....You're wearing gloves..

He is still Zero. I can't imagine him referring himself as 'Watashi' :heh:

No, he will show his face to Nunnaly. It's would be stupid, not stubborn.
Because it wouldn't make sense: he knows she knows!
I'm sure Nunnaly can be very persistent and extremely persuasive. ^_^
Let's not forget she has only him.

Nunnally is persistent, Suzaku is stubborn, what does it adds up? Let's see who can last longer.

That reminds me of a yaoi fanfic I read in lj. The only person Suzaku is willing to remove his mask for is the reincarnation of Lelouch. The one he had his promise with is the one with the key to release him. Too bad, that fic had a bad end.

[Airi]

Nunnally is persistent, Suzaku is stubborn, what does it adds up? Let's see who can last longer.

That reminds me of a yaoi fanfic I read in lj. The only person Suzaku is willing to remove his mask for is the reincarnation of Lelouch. The one he had his promise with is the one with the key to release him. Too bad, that fic had a bad end.

OOT: I read that fanfiction too! (I love it:p)

[Levy]

Nunnally is persistent, Suzaku is stubborn, what does it adds up? Let's see who can last longer.

I place my bet on Nunnaly =P she's Leouch sister after all, she'll find a way to outsmart him!
(and If I'd ship Suzaku and Nunnally - and I don't :/ - I couldn't resist the charme of the many cool parallelism one can make with the myth of Eros and Psyche.... *_* )

Nice plot, the reincarnation fic. At least it makes sound Suzaku/Lelouch interesting. Wich is kind of rare.

[Pink-chan]

OOT: I read that fanfiction too! (I love it:p)

I love that fic too :upset: Things didn't turn out right in that fic unfortunately.

:topicoff:

I place my bet on Nunnaly =P she's Leouch sister after all, she'll find a way to outsmart him!
(and If I'd ship Suzaku and Nunnally - and I don't :/ - I couldn't resist the charme of the many cool parallelism one can make with the myth of Eros and Psyche.... *_* )

Nice plot, the reincarnation fic. At least it makes sound Suzaku/Lelouch interesting. Wich is kind of rare.

Well, all the best to Nunnally. In that fic, she didn't succeed. It's only fanfic anyway. Nunnally can do it. If she can succeed in outsmarting Lelouch in Nunna-oden sound drama, what is Suzaku to her right? :D

[incorrupts]

It's obvious that Suzu will not wear Zero mask 24/7. In his private times, he will get it off. But yeah, other than this, he is forever stuck on the awesome Zero-costume.
Btw, which fic are you talking about? Was it posted on CG comm on LJ?

[X_Danny_X]

i cant believe this is even in question. they made up, they were friends, he was crying at the end. so he was sad depressed, whatever you want to call it, that he had to kill his blasted friend. he did it because that is what Lelouch had planned and nothing more. he didnt do it for revenge or to benefit himself. he cursed and he died just like Lelouch.

case closed.

[Grey Dawn]

i cant believe this is even in question. they made up, they were friends, he was crying at the end. so he was sad depressed, whatever you want to call it, that he had to kill his blasted friend. he did it because that is what Lelouch had planned and nothing more. he didnt do it for revenge or to benefit himself. he cursed and he died just like Lelouch.

case closed.

But then what's the point of "as promised, you'll kill me"?

I think the fact that Lelouch did make a plan, even at such a sacrifice, to bring about good and carried through with it went a long distance to redeem him in Suzaku's eyes. At the creation of ZR, I don't think Suzaku had forgiven or made up with Lelouch, but towards the end of it he was going in that direction as he saw that Lelouch really was trying to help people, in his own twisted way. And more recently Suzaku began seeing things in a similar fashion as Lelouch.

[eaglei3]

But then what's the point of "as promised, you'll kill me"?

I think the fact that Lelouch did make a plan, even at such a sacrifice, to bring about good and carried through with it went a long distance to redeem him in Suzaku's eyes. At the creation of ZR, I don't think Suzaku had forgiven or made up with Lelouch, but towards the end of it he was going in that direction as he saw that Lelouch really was trying to help people, in his own twisted way. And more recently Suzaku began seeing things in a similar fashion as Lelouch.


As this person said, the line "You will kill me as promised" shows that Suzaku still wanted that revenge. I go back to what I said a few pages back now where Suzaku's heart was torn in half between revenge of Euphy, and his past friendship/current whatever you call it with Lelouch.

His friendship with Lelouch made him weep as he slain him, but his revenge for Euphy was what allowed him to do it.

[Nogitsune]

I really wouldn't call it past friendship.
They only became "real" friends in R2, when they finally understood each other. Not that their relationship wasn't deep before, but they really had no clue about one another anymore - not after all this time.
I don't think that Suzaku still wanted revenge in the end. But they still made the promise back then, because Suzaku would have felt guilty for agreeing to work with Euphy's murderer just like that.
And Lelouch made him keep it.