Character Discussion - Suzaku

[wingdarkness]

And wingdarkness, you're still alive? Haha.
That's a question I should be asking YOU :p...

Still on #animesuki eh? Post more and watch Boondocks man, I'm telling you it's anime now...

I also agree that people kinda forget how dawg-eat-dawg Kira used to have to fight before FREEDOM and ultimatley GSD destroyed his character...Suzaku doesn't quite fit the comparison as he has simply been as good if not better than everyone from the moment he got Lancelot which isn't so l33t it can't have troubles, but yes I think he has some kind of advancment as seen with the spiderman moves he's shown...

[Aquaman OS]

Actually Suzaku had a typical Gundam progression. Wins first battle (Ghetto) because his unit can resist the enemy guns and then finishes them off while they are all "NO our peashooters aren't working" Win's second battle (Purist faction conflict) because he has a new type of melee weapon that is more advanced than anything the enemy has. Win's third battle (Raikou) because he has a stronger type of gun. That's basically it. Less pilot skill and more new technology.

[SuperKnuckles]

I don't think you can pin it all of lack of skills. Just that he doesn't need to only rely on that. I seriously doubt he'd lose his skills just because he is piloting a new mecha. I think that'll only make him more dangerous. Actually, I share a similar opinion of Kallen, though obviously she seems to always be a rung below Suzaku in terms of pure skills. And it was Kallen who got a massive power upgrade in her mecha. Suzaku did get a new gun + energy shield and that was about it.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

The only person with supernatural abilities is Rollo that falls into this category. The guy can freeze time around him and can literally dominate the battlefield.

Aside from excellent piloting skills has Suzaku actually shown any superhuman moves? And I do mean actual supernatural capabilities, not something that just makes him good at fighting.
You missed my point.

Sunrise staff had made it clear that Suzaku's physical capabilities and skills are of a supernatural origin, even if it looked normal from the outside.

The fact that he is good at fighting IS supernatural. It didn't have to be, but it is. Sunrise had told us outright that Suzaku's background is still a secret. The only info they can confirm so far is that Suzaku is still a human-being.

[Kang Seung Jae]

Sunrise had told us outright that Suzaku's background is still a secret. The only info they can confirm so far is that Suzaku is still a human-being.

STILL a human being?


Don't tell me he actually is the Vermilion Bird of the South :uhoh:

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

STILL a human being?


Don't tell me he actually is the Vermilion Bird of the South :uhoh:

Essentially, someone asked if Suzaku is a human. And Sunrise said yes. This is after revealing Suzaku's physical capabilities are mysterious, unnatural, and not to be discussed until the plot gets there.

[Kang Seung Jae]

Essentially, someone asked if Suzaku is a human. And Sunrise said yes. This is after revealing Suzaku's physical capabilities are mysterious, unnatural, and not to be discussed until the plot gets there.

The "still" part still spooks me, unless that's word you added in.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

The "still" part still spooks me, unless that's word you added in.

You are just reading too much into it. The only thing Sunrise said was "yes" to the question of "is Suzaku a human?".

[Dann of Thursday]

He's human, but one granted with super abilties like Lelouch is human, but with special powers.

[Ice_Bullet]

whoa. okay. now suckaku is superhuman.

anyways. what could caused it? genetic mutation? or? orange experiments?
how can it be linked to the plot? could it be that suzaku was meant to monitor lelouch and turn on him if anything goes wrong?

[Kang Seung Jae]

You are just reading too much into it. The only thing Sunrise said was "yes" to the question of "is Suzaku a human?".

Thank you.


It's just a case of my picking up every word ;)

[DarkLordOfkichiku]

Well, with the exception of this physical abilties, other abilties he may have have been hinted at - remember the episode when he could apparently see CC inside the Gawain? She was going to ask him something - maybe related to his origins, but at that time, Lelouch's Geass started to level up, so she never got to finish her sentence...

[Ice_Bullet]

Well, with the exception of this physical abilties, other abilties he may have have been hinted at - remember the episode when he could apparently see CC inside the Gawain? She was going to ask him something - maybe related to his origins, but at that time, Lelouch's Geass started to level up, so she never got to finish her sentence...

good point. however i can't understand the fact that he killed his dad for no reason. just coz he wants japan to surrender -.-. hmm. could it be britinnia kidnapped him and "enigineered" on him? and how can it be such a coincidence that suckaku and lelouch were childhood friends? i think he was sent to monitor him without suckaku himself knowing it.

[Kang Seung Jae]

good point. however i can't understand the fact that he killed his dad for no reason. just coz he wants japan to surrender -.-. hmm. could it be britinnia kidnapped him and "enigineered" on him? and how can it be such a coincidence that suckaku and lelouch were childhood friends? i think he was sent to monitor him without suckaku himself knowing it.

I'm thinking it's more of an impulsive thing.

Seriously, stop making Suzaku some sort of robot. Although what he does is frustrating to viewers, he has his clear logic that quite a few people would actually agree to if it wasn't for our hero Lelouch.

[DarkLordOfkichiku]

however i can't understand the fact that he killed his dad for no reason. just coz he wants japan to surrender -.-. hmm. could it be britinnia kidnapped him and "enigineered" on him? and how can it be such a coincidence that suckaku and lelouch were childhood friends? i think he was sent to monitor him without suckaku himself knowing it.

I have no idea if Brittania was/is involved in Suzaku at that point, but the reason that he wanted Japan to surrderer was because that continued resistence to Brittania would in his opinion have cost a needless amount of lives. His father, however, didn't agree with this and thus Suzaku apparently saw no other way out than killing him :rolleyes: .

[Lowell1025]

good point. however i can't understand the fact that he killed his dad for no reason. just coz he wants japan to surrender -.-. hmm. could it be britinnia kidnapped him and "enigineered" on him? and how can it be such a coincidence that suckaku and lelouch were childhood friends? i think he was sent to monitor him without suckaku himself knowing it.

Well he was a kid, and I dont think kids need that much reason, nor does he do much reasoning before he does something :heh: Lacking various experiences in life means one's bound to make mistakes at one juncture or another.

But I don't buy much into this Suzaku's a superhuman idea. He's just a determined and skilled Knightmare pilot right now, and perhaps, that thing with C.C might just be a side effect of them making indirect contact earlier in Season 1

[Kang Seung Jae]

I have no idea if Brittania was/is involved in Suzaku at that point, but the reason that he wanted Japan to surrderer was because that continued resistence to Brittania would in his opinion have cost a needless amount of lives. His father, however, didn't agree with this and thus Suzaku apparently saw no other way out than killing him :rolleyes: .

Seriously, does people think that a 10 year old actually has the same thought process as a teenage when it comes to killing?

[DarkLordOfkichiku]

Seriously, does people think that a 10 year old actually has the same thought process as a teenage when it comes to killing?

Well, perhaps, perhaps not :p . But you have a point, his only thought at that time may have bene "I don't want more people to die!" (simple thought enough for a kid of that age, yes?) so...

Also remember that this IS fiction :heh:

[Stretch5920]

Suzaku didn't plan it. It was more of a spur of the moment thing out of panic, fear and confusion. The whole thing is pretty silly really, you gotta be pretty messed up to even think about killing your dad at 10.

[Kang Seung Jae]

Suzaku didn't plan it. It was more of a spur of the moment thing out of panic, fear and confusion. The whole thing is pretty silly really, you gotta be pretty messed up to even think about killing your dad at 10.

Not really, if you've seen what kids have doen when they are under enormous stress.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

But I don't buy much into this Suzaku's a superhuman idea. He's just a determined and skilled Knightmare pilot right now, and perhaps, that thing with C.C might just be a side effect of them making indirect contact earlier in Season 1

You don't need to buy into it. It's probably better this way, so when Sunrise get the "big surprise event" it would have the desired effect.:p

Just don't be surprised if your views lose out to the views of the director.;)

[SoldierOfDarkness]

I'm thinking it's more of an impulsive thing.

Seriously, stop making Suzaku some sort of robot. Although what he does is frustrating to viewers, he has his clear logic that quite a few people would actually agree to if it wasn't for our hero Lelouch.

From what we saw it seemed to be a spur of the moment thing.

Suzaku pleads with his dad to stop the war, Genbu punches him away and turns around, then Suzaku runs him through with a knife.

Essentially, someone asked if Suzaku is a human. And Sunrise said yes. This is after revealing Suzaku's physical capabilities are mysterious, unnatural, and not to be discussed until the plot gets there.

Suzaku has more secrets than Lelouch holds himself. Whatever his origins are it better link to why he was kept a secret from the public and who his mother was.

[Lowell1025]

You don't need to buy into it. It's probably better this way, so when Sunrise get the "big surprise event" it would have the desired effect.:p

Just don't be surprised if your views lose out to the views of the director.;)

Well, his dad was a politician, and as general consensus goes.........politicians don't give birth to superhumans....they give birth to many things but not that :heh:

Suzaku's ultimate role in this series is still quiet unclear. Will he bring about major change that'll define the series? Or will he just be a skilled knightmare pilot and support char of some sort until the end?

By the way, nearly all of his Lancelot launching scenes are made as if a savior or a very important char is entering the stage, while his role in the series doesn't give me that impression of him at all. BAH

BTW2, happy to still see you around after all these years Vall, and Wingdarkness too. Hope you still remember me from the days this forum was being burnt down by G SEED and GSD discussions..... hahaha

[tenken627]

I'm thinking it's more of an impulsive thing.

Seriously, stop making Suzaku some sort of robot. Although what he does is frustrating to viewers, he has his clear logic that quite a few people would actually agree to if it wasn't for our hero Lelouch.

Honestly, if Suzaku is following a clear course of logic, he must have reached the conclusion that if he really wants to change the Empire internally, he would be at direct odds with the Emperor himself.

If he hasn't reached this conclusion, then he is more naive than previously thought. How can you wish for a peaceful state when the Britannia Empire itself represents aggression, oppression, and warfare? Not just in Area 11, but around the whole world. To truly make changes, you have to change the culture and the decisions, which would mean changes at the top.

Euphie/Nunnally/Suzaku's wish for a better Area 11 would be scrapped as soon as the Emperor wishes it so.

Maybe all this loyalty for the Emperor is just a charade, and Suzaku ends up taking out the Emperor in the end. That way he can add regicide along with his patricide. Maybe Suzaku becomes the new Emperor that leads Britannia and Japan into a new peaceful era. All Hail Emperor Suzaku.

Ugh, I feel sick.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Honestly, if Suzaku is following a clear course of logic, he must have reached the conclusion that if he really wants to change the Empire internally, he would be at direct odds with the Emperor himself.

If he hasn't reached this conclusion, then he is more naive than previously thought. How can you wish for a peaceful state when the Britannia Empire itself represents aggression, oppression, and warfare? Not just in Area 11, but around the whole world. To truly make changes, you have to change the culture and the decisions, which would mean changes at the top.

Euphie/Nunnally/Suzaku's wish for a better Area 11 would be scrapped as soon as the Emperor wishes it so.

Maybe all this loyalty for the Emperor is just a charade, and Suzaku ends up taking out the Emperor in the end. That way he can add regicide along with his patricide. Maybe Suzaku becomes the new Emperor that leads Britannia and Japan into a new peaceful era. All Hail Emperor Suzaku.

Ugh, I feel sick.

These invasions all in the name of evolution are a facade to acquire Geass ruins for another purpose and he's allowed the corrupt bureactrats to run the other Areas because as General Bartfield noted, he's focusing a lot on them.

Assuming he achieves his objective (Which is to kill god) then what happens afterwards? Britannia ceases its conquests? Pulls out of the areas? We don't know just as much as we don't know what Suzaku wants.

First he says he wants to change the world yet he seems to be focusing more on Japan.

[blitz1/2]

It's much more likely that Suzaku is a cyborg made for war.

Analysing combat level for Suzaku....

IT'S OVER NINE THOUSAAAANNNNNDD!

[Dann of Thursday]

Already confirmed he isn't by the main writer, Okouchi.

[JMvS]

Maybe he owe his super human physical abilities to exposure to kryptonite when he was young? :p

[Dann of Thursday]

No, he was given his abilties when he was a kid and it seems they are related to Geass.

[Sol Falling]

You know, I'm pretty sure there was much more to Suzaku's decision to commit patricide than just some impulse. It was already stated in picture book 23.95 that he planned it. Looking through the sound dramas, child Suzaku actually demonstrates quite a bit of depth in terms of issues of powerlessness and growing up.

When Suzaku met Lelouch, and saw his determination to take care of himself and Nunally without any help from other people, he felt ashamed of his belief that children couldn't do anything. Suzaku was used to being talked down to by his father, to paying respect to his elders like Todou at his dojo. Being regularly exposed to all the political dealings that his family was in charge of, and yet understanding very little of it, Suzaku developed a fairly passive attitude. However, through his interactions with Lelouch who was determined to control his own destiny, to achieve things with his own hands and 'truly live', Suzaku came to understand that the humility and small-mindedness of 'I'm just a child' was holding him back.

Suzaku's patricide was probably part of a learning process for him, an event where he decided for himself what was right and wrong and stood up for his beliefs. However, even though his perceptions about his father were not necessarily mistaken, and even though his patricide was not necessarily a bad move, Suzaku could not accept the ramifications of his actions. Seeing what happened when he took things into his own hands, Suzaku probably reverted, grew less sure of himself, fell back into his previous attitude of paying respect to his elders. This development was probably a principle part of forming Suzaku's later attitude of deference to authority and following the rules.

It's all a pretty clear cut path of Suzaku's psychological development and the creation of his belief system. Suzaku's patricide wasn't just some random occurence, didn't come out of nowhere, but rather had its basis in Suzaku's upbringing and friendship with Lelouch, and it had far reaching effects on the way he thought for years afterwards.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

I'm pretty confident that Suzaku didn't planned on killing his father. He PLANNED on talking with his father to end the war and persuade him but I'm sure the knife was a last ditch measure (I mean you can't exactly carry a knife that big on a small child right?)

[Kang Seung Jae]

Honestly, if Suzaku is following a clear course of logic, he must have reached the conclusion that if he really wants to change the Empire internally, he would be at direct odds with the Emperor himself.

If he hasn't reached this conclusion, then he is more naive than previously thought. How can you wish for a peaceful state when the Britannia Empire itself represents aggression, oppression, and warfare? Not just in Area 11, but around the whole world. To truly make changes, you have to change the culture and the decisions, which would mean changes at the top.

Euphie/Nunnally/Suzaku's wish for a better Area 11 would be scrapped as soon as the Emperor wishes it so.

Maybe all this loyalty for the Emperor is just a charade, and Suzaku ends up taking out the Emperor in the end. That way he can add regicide along with his patricide. Maybe Suzaku becomes the new Emperor that leads Britannia and Japan into a new peaceful era. All Hail Emperor Suzaku.

Ugh, I feel sick.


You missed one important thing: The Knight of One can rule is also granted an area of control by the Emperor himself and is allowed to request any area under Britannian rule. Suzaku's goal is to be the Knight of One, and rule Area 11.


You haven't forgotten that, have you?


Also, change the "world" here means change HIS world, not the ENTIRE world.

[Dann of Thursday]

So he's really only changing it for himself and maybe some lucky people? That actually sounds pretty close to the kind of person that Taniguchi has been portraying Suzaku as.

[Kang Seung Jae]

So he's really only changing it for himself and maybe some lucky people? That actually sounds pretty close to the kind of person that Taniguchi has been portraying Suzaku as.

I would think it'll be more than "some lucky people", but the basic idea is the same.

[Dann of Thursday]

Well, an entire nation but it's still only a select group of people really. This is sort of the problem I had with the SAR in that it really would only help Japan and just leave the world on its own.

[wingdarkness]

Honestly, if Suzaku is following a clear course of logic, he must have reached the conclusion that if he really wants to change the Empire internally, he would be at direct odds with the Emperor himself.

If he hasn't reached this conclusion, then he is more naive than previously thought. How can you wish for a peaceful state when the Britannia Empire itself represents aggression, oppression, and warfare? Not just in Area 11, but around the whole world. To truly make changes, you have to change the culture and the decisions, which would mean changes at the top.

Euphie/Nunnally/Suzaku's wish for a better Area 11 would be scrapped as soon as the Emperor wishes it so.

Maybe all this loyalty for the Emperor is just a charade, and Suzaku ends up taking out the Emperor in the end. That way he can add regicide along with his patricide. Maybe Suzaku becomes the new Emperor that leads Britannia and Japan into a new peaceful era. All Hail Emperor Suzaku.

Ugh, I feel sick.

Does it even have to be this deep? I mean honestly, can’t the dude just be trying to do the best that he can? You’re all acting like you would have every stone over-turned with every contingency for every potential thing that happens…Sometimes you go with your gut and just do the best you can…He knew he wasn’t gonna go about a route that required him to approach the situation like Lulu, so he went about it the best way he knew how and met a girl who solidified his pure intention…Now that doesn’t make him any less annoying when he says things like “There’s no need for forgiveness,” to Karen then doesn’t even try to take her out…Or pretend like he’s giving people a choice before he pwns them in Lancelot, but it’s not like you can prepare for everything and he’s just trying to go about it in his own flawed little way like most of humans tend to do (see Lulu)...

[Sol Falling]

I'm pretty confident that Suzaku didn't planned on killing his father. He PLANNED on talking with his father to end the war and persuade him but I'm sure the knife was a last ditch measure (I mean you can't exactly carry a knife that big on a small child right?)

These are Suzaku's lines during picture book 23.95:

"I should have spoken to you. I should have told you what I was going to do. That's what I thought...but at that moment, I couldn't bring myself to say it. Maybe that was why, when you said those words, I somehow felt a feeling of salvation."

"Suzaku...Suzaku...I...will destroy Britannia!"

"Then I felt a tinge of sorrow in me. I could not answer your pledge to me. I was going to commit patricide. Perhaps it was the wrong answer. I know. I knew full well. But..."

:P Pretty explicit, right? But you know, I really don't understand why people have a problem with Suzaku doing it on purpose. Family is important, but its the way of the world that there are cruel and heartless people, even if they might be your parents. Suzaku killed his father. Lelouch wants to kill his father. It's all the same, the right or wrong of it.

[tenken627]

You missed one important thing: The Knight of One can rule is also granted an area of control by the Emperor himself and is allowed to request any area under Britannian rule. Suzaku's goal is to be the Knight of One, and rule Area 11.


You haven't forgotten that, have you?


Also, change the "world" here means change HIS world, not the ENTIRE world.


But, if the Emperor wishes to get rid of that with that, does he not have that power?

Change only his world and screw the rest? So are you saying that Suzaku is not only small-minded, but he is also hypocritical?

Does it even have to be this deep? I mean honestly, can’t the dude just be trying to do the best that he can? You’re all acting like you would have every stone over-turned with every contingency for every potential thing that happens…Sometimes you go with your gut and just do the best you can…He knew he wasn’t gonna go about a route that required him to approach the situation like Lulu, so he went about it the best way he knew how and met a girl who solidified his pure intention…Now that doesn’t make him any less annoying when he says things like “There’s no need for forgiveness,” to Karen then doesn’t even try to take her out…Or pretend like he’s giving people a choice before he pwns them in Lancelot, but it’s not like you can prepare for everything and he’s just trying to go about it in his own flawed little way like most of humans tend to do (see Lulu)...

Everyone is flawed, but the problem with Suzaku is that his ideals and actions are contradictory, and he doesn't realize it. Either Suzaku is half-assing his thoughts and explanations, or Sunrise half-assed them. As flawed as Lulu is, the viewers don't have great confusion in regards to his character.

[Dann of Thursday]

You're just getting that he is a hypocrite now?

[Kang Seung Jae]

But, if the Emperor wishes to get rid of that with that, does he not have that power?

I probably DOES have the power. However, would you think that in a absolute monarchy, there would be no "honor" when it comes to positions.



Change only his world and screw the rest? So are you saying that Suzaku is not only small-minded, but he is also hypocritical?

He's human. A normal human would think only of his small world.

[Sol Falling]

You give one area a SAZ, and all the others will want one too, right? If it works out alright for Britannia, I don't see why they wouldn't let it expand to other areas as well, using Japan as a model.

I mean, all this posturing about having to take down the Emperor or him shutting everything down is kinda baseless, isn't it? The Emperor's been shown to not be an especially bigoted or prejudiced guy. If it works, it works, right? Just like Lelouch.

Seriously, Wakamoto's got bigger fish to fry than picking on a couple conquered nations. He's after the gods. If an SAZ is what it takes to settle everything down and move his resources to where he needs them, then why not? Just like Schniezel.

[Dann of Thursday]

The fact of the matter is that the idea rejects the idea of Britannia and they wouldn't allow it to succeed even if it worked for them.

[Eliarine]

These are Suzaku's lines during picture book 23.95:

"I should have spoken to you. I should have told you what I was going to do. That's what I thought...but at that moment, I couldn't bring myself to say it. Maybe that was why, when you said those words, I somehow felt a feeling of salvation."

At the risk of sounding like an idiot, I'm going to have to ask for clarification on this. I have seen two translations so far with these lines referring to what Suzaku had *already* done, and I'm pretty sure that part is conjugated in the past tense. Can anyone enlighten me? :/

[Kang Seung Jae]

At the risk of sounding like an idiot, I'm going to have to ask for clarification on this. I have seen two translations so far with these lines referring to what Suzaku had *already* done, and I'm pretty sure that part is conjugated in the past tense. Can anyone enlighten me? :/

Was that the last DVD video? If so, I'll check it out.

[Dann of Thursday]

Yeah it was the last one.

[Kang Seung Jae]

At the risk of sounding like an idiot, I'm going to have to ask for clarification on this. I have seen two translations so far with these lines referring to what Suzaku had *already* done, and I'm pretty sure that part is conjugated in the past tense. Can anyone enlighten me? :/

Okay, got it: "I should have told you what I had done."

[Dann of Thursday]

That's what I always had and figured it was. It fits too, since he kept that reserved for so long.

[Eliarine]

Okay, got it: "I should have told you what I had done."

Thanks for the confirmation. ;D It does make more sense that way.

[Sol Falling]

sorry, was that a confirmation translated from Japanese? In that case, could you also check the second part of my quote where Suzaku says 'I was going to commit patricide'? Because both of those lines indicate that Suzaku seperated from Lelouch before he killed his father. The picture book is a bit confusing because earlier on Suzaku also refers to the patricide as in the past, when he says "I made it so. I couldn't turn back. If I hadn't killed my father on that day, all those people wouldn't have had to die." But I took the two mentions of his plans later on to indicate that it was indeed a premeditated act.

[Lowell1025]

sorry, was that a confirmation translated from Japanese? In that case, could you also check the second part of my quote where Suzaku says 'I was going to commit patricide'? Because both of those lines indicate that Suzaku seperated from Lelouch before he killed his father. The picture book is a bit confusing because earlier on Suzaku also refers to the patricide as in the past, when he says "I made it so. I couldn't turn back. If I hadn't killed my father on that day, all those people wouldn't have had to die." But I took the two mentions of his plans later on to indicate that it was indeed a premeditated act.

Or maybe he is finding an excuse to quelch his guilt, finding justification after the act is committed.

If it was really planned, yuk...........

[Kang Seung Jae]

sorry, was that a confirmation translated from Japanese? In that case, could you also check the second part of my quote where Suzaku says 'I was going to commit patricide'?

I don't see the second part of your quote (is there any?), but here's what I remember: It was "that I killed my father."


The whole thing shows only that he killed his father, and has no mention of whether it was premeditated. However, the overall atmosphere leads one to believe that it was not somethng planned.




It seems that the hate for Suzaku has turned some people to think of our poor guy as some murderous, backstabbing evil character.

[Dann of Thursday]

I just see him as a rather sad character honestly because of how he is.

[Sol Falling]

Here's the quote again, important parts in bold:

"I should have spoken to you. I should have told you what I was going to do. That's what I thought...but at that moment, I couldn't bring myself to say it. Maybe that was why, when you said those words, I somehow felt a feeling of salvation."

"Suzaku...Suzaku...I...will destroy Britannia!"

"Then I felt a tinge of sorrow in me. I could not answer your pledge to me. I was going to commit patricide. Perhaps it was the wrong answer. I know. I knew full well. But..."

And no, I don't hate Suzaku, far from it. I'm actually quite a vocal supporter for him, as you might see throughout the earlier parts of this thread.

Lowell1025, I'm a bit surprised. I was thinking you'd been making somewhat enlightened posts in the philosophy and Turn 06 threads but if a mere planned patricide can set off your moral outrage radar than I may have to reconsider that perception.

[Dann of Thursday]

I think KSJ answered it with that quote "That I killed my father."

I don't quite get how some people can support him since Taniguchi has been making it clear that he is not really the sort of person you should like.

[Kang Seung Jae]

" I was going to commit patricide. Perhaps it was the wrong answer. "

Okay, here's the translation:

"What you (Lelouch) are trying to do is kill your father. It's probably the wrong answer."

[Sol Falling]

o_O wow, really? That totally changes the meaning of the scene. Heh, I guess gg weren't kidding when they said their season one subs were crap (sorry, is that allowed? mentioning the sub group, I mean. If not, I'll edit this.). Not quite sure what to believe anymore.

[Kang Seung Jae]

o_O wow, really? That totally changes the meaning of the scene. Heh, I guess gg weren't kidding when they said their season one subs were crap (sorry, is that allowed? mentioning the sub group, I mean. If not, I'll edit this.). Not quite sure what to believe anymore.

Believe the Korean subbers. Korean is almost completely interchangable with Japanese, which is one reason why we get most of our subs within 24 hours of broadcasting.

[Lowell1025]

Lowell1025, I'm a bit surprised. I was thinking you'd been making somewhat enlightened posts in the philosophy and Turn 06 threads but if a mere planned patricide can set off your moral outrage radar than I may have to reconsider that perception.

Well, a "yuk" can mean many things :p

but "mere" planned patricide?

[Dann of Thursday]

Oh, crap. The gg subs are bad for season 1? I guess this means every scene I ever saw was read wrong, especially the ones involving C.C.. This just makes things worse.

[orangejuicetang]

Does he literally say that he purposefully tried to make Suzuku unlikable? Or is that the assumption that most people make based on his actions and personality? I mean, in the show there seems to be plenty of people who like him, such as the student government, gino, Nunually, Lelouch used to, Todou seems to be slightly supportive of him or at least truly understands him. Most of the people who really dislike him are usually his enemies anyway in one form or another.

[Kang Seung Jae]

Oh, crap. The gg subs are bad for season 1? I guess this means every scene I ever saw was read wrong, especially the ones involving C.C.. This just makes things worse.

*Worries that he'll have to start answering requests for scene translations.*

[Dann of Thursday]

It would only be about 5 scenes, but I won't bother. Don't want to waste your time.

[Kang Seung Jae]

It would only be about 5 scenes, but I won't bother. Don't want to waste your time.

Nah, I have time. Just PM them to me, it'll probably take only 5 minutes per scene.

[Sol Falling]

Believe the Korean subbers. Korean is almost completely interchangable with Japanese, which is one reason why we get most of our subs within 24 hours of broadcasting.

Heh, I can't understand Korean though. Well, I just went and had a listen myself and I did hear a 'kimi' at the start of that line so I guess I'll take your word for it.

Well, a "yuk" can mean many things :p

but "mere" planned patricide?

:P Iunno, feel free to clarify then. Moral outrage was just my guess for the most probable motivation for a negative response.

The thing is, planned patricide is precisely what Lelouch is planning to do as well, and really these kinds of characters are scattered all over literature without garnering automatic disapproval. All it takes for anybody to sympathise to some degree with Suzaku and his patricide is a healthy distrust of nationalism, at the very least. The sanctity of family, life, or children are pretty much biological constructs, really, and it isn't too hard for circumstances to break them.

I don't quite get how some people can support him since Taniguchi has been making it clear that he is not really the sort of person you should like.

As for your question on how people can support Suzaku, Dann, it's pretty simple in my case. My criteria for liking people is pretty much competence, maybe moreso individual competence, and from what I've seen in the show so far, Suzaku is just as, if not moreso, competent than Lelouch. Not quite sure where you're getting the 'should' from, either, as it seems like being Suzaku's friend would actually net you quite a few benefits, doesn't it?

[Dann of Thursday]

I meant that morally you shouldn't like the kind of person he is. I haven't seen him be more competent than Lelouch to be honest, but given you're a fan of Suzaku and I'm not means I'm probably to blind to see it.

[Dean_the_Young]

I meant that morally you shouldn't like the kind of person he is.Which, as always, applies equally to Lelouch.

If I remember, wasn't the quote you're referring to more about how the director was saying that, despite his pleasant personality, that Suzaku had his own dark secrets and flaws? That has a different meaning than just "he's a bad person, never be like him."

I haven't seen him be more competent than Lelouch to be honest, but given you're a fan of Suzaku and I'm not means I'm probably to blind to see it.

Well, how many times has a cat or a single unexpected variable almost ruined Suzaku's grand plans in a comedic series of events? ;)

Seriously though, Suzaku tends to be beaten by more reasonable reasons (such as enemy reinforcements/upgrades, C.C.'s interference, and so on), while Lelouch is often beaten by a single unexpected variable he doesn't over-plan for.

[Dann of Thursday]

Not really. In various interviews and such, he's made it clear that Lelouch is overall meant to be the hero kind of character though a more realistic one.

I guess I'm wrong though and everyone is right that Lelouch is just like Light and that Suzaku is the real hero of this story with the right idea in mind.

[DarkLordOfkichiku]

I guess I'm wrong though and everyone is right that Lelouch is just like Light and that Suzaku is the real hero of this story with the right idea in mind.

Man, why must people always compare him to Light? Can't we come up with a different comparison for once? :eyebrow:
How about comparing him to, say, Paul Atreides instead? Lots of similarities there too...

[kk2extreme]

I think suzaku is using nanaully as a replacement for euphie

[orangejuicetang]

I feel that it has more to do with their personal idealogies and beliefs. Lelouch thinks "This is how the world should be, how do I change it", while I feel that Suzuku thinks more like "This is how the world is right now, how do I best deal with it." Like in the case of Japan, Lelouch would basically the current system and make a whole new one, while Suzuku looks for something that would achieve his means, like becoming the Knight of One, and works toward achieving that means.

[Dann of Thursday]

And that automatically makes Suzaku the better person. I thought the Light comaprisons were BS too, but I guess they were more correct than I cared to acknowledge.

[Lowell1025]

:P Iunno, feel free to clarify then. Moral outrage was just my guess for the most probable motivation for a negative response.

The thing is, planned patricide is precisely what Lelouch is planning to do as well, and really these kinds of characters are scattered all over literature without garnering automatic disapproval. All it takes for anybody to sympathise to some degree with Suzaku and his patricide is a healthy distrust of nationalism, at the very least. The sanctity of family, life, or children are pretty much biological constructs, really, and it isn't too hard for circumstances to break them.

well, that "yuk" have the followings:
1. I imagnined bashings Suzaku dislikers would dish out if it is proven he planned it all along :heh:
2. Reminded me of a case of parenticde I read on newspapers which I'd rather forget
3. suddenly remembered many things I need to do before 11AM tomorrow:heh:

If you want my personal opinion on the matter, I'm at a stage where I try to refrain myself from judging others. It's another person's life, and if you reflect back on yourself, you'd notice times when you lost control and made mistake also. As the saying goes, "A true gentlemen can forgive all mistakes but the ones made by himself." Although I don't give a dang about gentlemen, I do believe in the rest. Unless I can't think of another way, I'd like to keep opinions on these matters open / undiscussed, and just look after my own.

While I can understand a bit as to why Suzaku killed his father, I'm no Suzaku. Although I lost them now, I had a very close and caring family. My relation with my dad is completely different and inevitably, I am biased towards Suzaku's action. The point here is, my feelings towards Suzaku's case will inevitably be based somewhat on my experiences and my feelings (to what extent can vary), no matter how well or reasonable the case is presented or how hard I try to be objective. This feeling is not something you can easily win over/turn aside with arguments and facts. The same thing goes for other people too. If you are truely empathetic and can understand that, then perphaps you can communicate with others without ending up having one feeling going up against another ( I see a lot of argument on this board ended up like this), but come to understand each other's position better instead, and perhaps learn more about the aspects of the issue you are discussing - ultimately, end up with a better judgment on the issue.

[tenken627]

Actually morally, Suzaku is better than Lelouch when it comes to accepted ethical standards. Lelouch is the one putting innocent lives in harm's way.

Suzaku is just, really really weird in his thought patterns for lack of a better description. He says things that contradict each other. He acts in a certain way that contradicts with his words. He tries to justify his actions, but you're left going like "huh?" after you hear his rationalization. And he doesn't even notice it.

It's not that Suzaku is an evil person. It is very easily arguable that Lelouch is much more evil compared to Suzaku.

But, Suzaku is just a really poorly made character. It's just kinda like Suzaku has split personalities, where different sides of him are just not aware of the others.

Is he a character that is willing to do whatever it takes to get what he wants or is he a character that hates that line of thought? He shows both ends of the spectrum that are in direct conflict with each other.

Is he a character that feels violence is so wrong that he will use violence to support those who first commit and continue violence? wth?

I don't necessarily hate Suzaku himself, I just don't like how they made him. And I like antagonists. It feels like they just thought an antagonist child-hood friend on the Empire's side would make a really cool character, but they built his character up so randomly and illogically.

[Kang Seung Jae]

Suzaku is just, really really weird in his thought patterns for lack of a better description. He says things that contradict each other. He acts in a certain way that contradicts with his words. He tries to justify his actions, but you're left going like "huh?" after you hear his rationalization. And he doesn't even notice it.

Given that more than half of the people in this world are like Suzaku, I'm not even going to argue.

[Dann of Thursday]

I suppose they did the show wrong then and should have made Suzaku the protagonist since he is actually more of a hero than Lelouch.

[tenken627]

Given that more than half of the people in this world are like Suzaku, I'm not even going to argue.

Really. Explain to me how?

[DJ_RockmanX]

I suppose they did the show wrong then and should have made Suzaku the protagonist since he is actually more of a hero than Lelouch.

But then the show would be the same old stuff you always see.

[Dann of Thursday]

Yeah, but there wouldn't be these stupid arguments and people trying to convince themselves that Lelouch is actually a good person and someone who should win.

[DJ_RockmanX]

Yeah, but there wouldn't be these stupid arguments and people trying to convince themselves that Lelouch is actually a good person and someone who should win.

Well I for one wouldn't want that to happen. :p

[Dann of Thursday]

Besides, given how many seem to think this way (though not all), they probably prefer it the regular way.

[Kang Seung Jae]

Really. Explain to me how?

Call me cynical, but most people in this world say things that contradict each other. They act in a certain way that contradicts with their words. And they doesn't even notice it.


I see no difference between that and Suzaku. Suzaku seems abnormal because most of the characters in anime are just "perfect" compared to rality.

[Dann of Thursday]

Yeah, Suzaku is probably the most realistic character in this show. He probably reminds some people of themselves and that's why some may hate him.

[tenken627]

Call me cynical, but most people in this world say things that contradict each other. They act in a certain way that contradicts with their words. And they doesn't even notice it.


I see no difference between that and Suzaku. Suzaku seems abnormal because most of the characters in anime are just "perfect" compared to rality.

I agree with you. We all say things that contradict each other. That's part of human nature.

That is not what I meant when I wrote that.

What I mean is that the creators of Suzaku just really didn't put much thought into Suzaku's thought process.

It's like me saying to you "I hate apples, and the reason why I still eat them is because they are disgusting."

So, you know I hate apples, but the reasoning that I use for still eating them when I hate them is just totally illogical.

Hating apples and finding them disgusting is fine by itself. But, why in my actions do I eat them?

[DarkLordOfkichiku]

Yeah, but there wouldn't be these stupid arguments and people trying to convince themselves that Lelouch is actually a good person and someone who should win.

Well, both Lelouch AND Suzaku ARE good persons at heart :p

[Lowell1025]

realistic as in....don't know what they are saying and doing what they think they are doing but not doing?

sorry I couldnt resist:heh:

[Lowell1025]

I agree with you. We all say things that contradict each other. That's part of human nature.

That is not what I meant when I wrote that.

What I mean is that the creators of Suzaku just really didn't put much thought into Suzaku's thought process.

It's like me saying to you "I hate apples, and the reason why I still eat them is because they are disgusting."

So, you know I hate apples, but the reasoning that I use for still eating them when I hate them is just totally illogical.

Hating apples and finding them disgusting is fine by itself. But, why in my actions do I eat them?

because actually you are very hungry?:heh:

[Ice_Bullet]

I just see him as a rather sad character honestly because of how he is.

how is he sad then? the lost of lelouch? the lost of euphy?

[tenken627]

because actually you are very hungry?:heh:

LOL, touche touche :heh:

[Kang Seung Jae]

What I mean is that the creators of Suzaku just really didn't put much thought into Suzaku's thought process.

It's like me saying to you "I hate apples, and the reason why I still eat them is because they are disgusting."

So, you know I hate apples, but the reasoning that I use for still eating them when I hate them is just totally illogical.

Hating apples and finding them disgusting is fine by itself. But, why in my actions do I eat them?

The comparison cannot be made because we're talking about killing here.


Remember what Suzaku said during the Narita fight: "I am a soldier to prevent more killing, even if I hate killing."

That's the dilemna that a soldier can have when he is on the battlefield. Although he himself may not want to kill, that act of "restraint" can lead to more deathes by allowing "terrorists" to do damage. Examples such as the stealing of the "poison gas" capsle shows what Suzaku is against.

Suzaku, unlike your regular civilian who mostly wouldn't have to kill in the first place, is a soldier. His "twisted" logic is the things that any soldiers might face while doing their duty.

[orangejuicetang]

Well, both Lelouch AND Suzaku ARE good persons at heart Agreed. They both have good intentions at heart, and I'm sure they wouldn't delibrately go out of thier way to make someone else's life miserable. The problem is that the actions they do for these intentions often have consequences that make others miserable, whether intentional or not. And for him hating to kill but killing anyway, I thought that it was because that if he didn't kill those specefic people, those specfic people will eventually end up killing more people. So it's kind of like the kill few to save many mentaility.

[thedonkiluminati]

I hate suzaku because he joined the people who took over his country, and slaughtered many of his people both soldier and civilian. That and he killed the leader of his country during the war, putting Japan in the position it's in right now.

[Kang Seung Jae]

I hate suzaku because he joined the people who took over his country, and slaughtered many of his people both soldier and civilian.

That could be better than the alternative of complete destruction of everything.


That and he killed the leader of his country during the war, putting Japan in the position it's in right now.

Perhaps Japan is in a better situation now because it surrendered so quickly.



Such simple thinking will not get anywhere when you consider the geopolitical situation.

[thedonkiluminati]

That could be better than the alternative of complete destruction of everything.




Perhaps Japan is in a better situation now because it surrendered so quickly.



Such simple thinking will not get anywhere when you consider the geopolitical situation.


Well, my opinion there are some fates worse than death. And you look out how the people are treated now, have to bow down to britannians and live in fear, i would choose death. But that's just me.

[orangejuicetang]

I think the word slaughtered is a little too harsh. Maybe he's killed some in the line of work, but it's not like he wakes up everyday and thinks "oh boy, I wonder how many Japenese I get to kill today." And like it has been said, most of the people that Suzuku has killed are terrorists or soliders who were trying to kill him at the moment. I don't recall Suzuku specifically killing any civilians. In fact, he gets shot in the very first episode for not shooting LeLouch, since he feels that Lelouch was an innocent civilian who did nothing wrong. And I think it's been stated in the series that if he didn't kill his father, Japan would be in a much worse situation than it is right now, as it would simply be a battleground for all three superpowers, which would have killed much more Japenese and left it much more desolate and barren.

[thedonkiluminati]

I think the word slaughtered is a little too harsh. Maybe he's killed some in the line of work, but it's not like he wakes up everyday and thinks "oh boy, I wonder how many Japenese I get to kill today." And like it has been said, most of the people that Suzuku has killed are terrorists or soliders who were trying to kill him at the moment. I don't recall Suzuku specifically killing any civilians. In fact, he gets shot in the very first episode for not shooting LeLouch, since he feels that Lelouch was an innocent civilian who did nothing wrong. And I think it's been stated in the series that if he didn't kill his father, Japan would be in a much worse situation than it is right now, as it would simply be a battleground for all three superpowers, which would have killed much more Japenese and left it much more desolate and barren.

I was saying he joined the the enemy which slaughtered soldiers and civilians.

[DarkLordOfkichiku]

Agreed. They both have good intentions at heart, and I'm sure they wouldn't delibrately go out of thier way to make someone else's life miserable. The problem is that the actions they do for these intentions often have consequences that make others miserable, whether intentional or not.

Well, that's basically it; they don't want to make anyone's life miserable as such (well, expect for perhaps their enemies :rolleyes: ) and they both want to make the world a better place in their own way. The thing is of course that both of their ways means more suffering to people in general before they can be reached... :heh:

[Lowell1025]

That could be better than the alternative of complete destruction of everything.




Perhaps Japan is in a better situation now because it surrendered so quickly.



Such simple thinking will not get anywhere when you consider the geopolitical situation.

well we have to ask now,
such "simple" thinking is what many would also think. Obviously, they didnt take many factors into account when they thought this way. But should they be held accountable for thinking this way? I mean, most of these people are just citizens, their livelihood and concerns are not as large and as complicated as those politicians. From their perspective its a simple fact as to not betray your friends, not to destroy a part of how you live. Whats wrong in that?


Maybe Something is wrong if a person who's always lived like that are suddenly thrusted into that kind of decision making...........It's like, a farmer who lived in a small village where everyone is friendly all his life, the only way to live he knows is tend to the fields. One day suddenly an Army Major comes in takes him away and 1 day later he's got a gun in his hand and hes in situation to either shoot another guy or be shot. What is the force that made him lose his once timid life? Does anyone have the right to do that to him? Instead of blaming him that his comrades are dying because he cant shoot, perhaps we should also think on blaming the force that placed him in that situation?

[Kang Seung Jae]

well we have to ask now,
such "simple" thinking is what many would also think. Obviously, they didnt take many factors into account when they thought this way. But should they be held accountable for thinking this way? I mean, most of these people are just citizens, their livelihood and concerns are not as large and as complicated as those politicians. From their perspective its a simple fact as to not betray your friends, not to destroy a part of how you live. Whats wrong in that?
Something is wrong if a person who's always lived like that are suddenly thrusted into that kind of decision making...........

I was talking about the viewers who are saying "I HATE SUZAKU SINCE HE IS A BLOODY BACKSTABBING TRAITOR WHO BETRAYS HIS OWN PEOPLE!!!", not the people in the anime.


Unlike the characters, we are allowed to have hindersight and judge based on what we know.

[tenken627]

The comparison cannot be made because we're talking about killing here.


Remember what Suzaku said during the Narita fight: "I am a soldier to prevent more killing, even if I hate killing."

That's the dilemna that a soldier can have when he is on the battlefield. Although he himself may not want to kill, that act of "restraint" can lead to more deathes by allowing "terrorists" to do damage. Examples such as the stealing of the "poison gas" capsle shows what Suzaku is against.

Suzaku, unlike your regular civilian who mostly wouldn't have to kill in the first place, is a soldier. His "twisted" logic is the things that any soldiers might face while doing their duty.

That's still not what I'm saying. Using your "killing" reference, it's like this:

Suzaku hates the killing of his own people. So in order to stop the killing of his own people, he is willing to kill more of his own people.

Or

Suzaku hates killing of his own people by the Britannians. So, in order to stop the killing of his own people by the Britannians, he kills his dad, who is one of his own people.

Or

Suzaku hates the usage of innocent people, so in order to stop the usage of innocent people, he uses innocent people in order to protect them from being used.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Something just occurred to me.

Suzaku's goal is to govern Area 11....yet Nunnally is the one taking over and in no way in hell is he going to backstab her.

For the sake of the argument, let's guarantee that Nunnally's position is to stay if she proves herself to be a capable ruler (As Vallen pointed out, the Emperor is pretty apethetic so I doubt he'll go to the lengths of assassinating her later).

So is there any point to Suzaku becoming the Knight of One to govern Area 11? If Nunnally does a good job and stays then there's little point.

THough the thing that baffles me is how Nunnally/Suzaku argue about changing the world and they are using Japan to do it. Those poor people:heh:

Suzaku hates killing of his own people by the Britannians. So, in order to stop the killing of his own people by the Britannians, he kills his dad, who is one of his own people.

Pretty sure it's Suzaku hates people dying. period.

He's never shown any joy in killing his own kind either.

When he was participating in the JLF operation he was casting doubt on himself to even fire on the JLF soldiers but it wasn't because they were japanese, it was because it was literally a massacre. Since we say Lelouch is a good person because he hesitates or admits its evil to murder people, we should give Suzaku some benefit on his side.

[Kang Seung Jae]

Suzaku's goal is to govern Area 11....yet Nunnally is the one taking over and in no way in hell is he going to backstab her.

No need to backstab: He can ask the Emperor to make him Governor of Area 11 when he becomes Knight of One.

[tenken627]

Something just occurred to me.

Suzaku's goal is to govern Area 11....yet Nunnally is the one taking over and in no way in hell is he going to backstab her.

For the sake of the argument, let's guarantee that Nunnally's position is to stay if she proves herself to be a capable ruler (As Vallen pointed out, the Emperor is pretty apethetic so I doubt he'll go to the lengths of assassinating her later).

So is there any point to Suzaku becoming the Knight of One to govern Area 11? If Nunnally does a good job and stays then there's little point.

THough the thing that baffles me is how Nunnally/Suzaku argue about changing the world and they are using Japan to do it. Those poor people:heh:

But didn't Suzaku just use Nunnally for his own manipulative purposes when he was with Lelouch last episode? Does he really care for her and respect her when he does that random and illogical action?



Pretty sure it's Suzaku hates people dying. period.

He's never shown any joy in killing his own kind either.

When he was participating in the JLF operation he was casting doubt on himself to even fire on the JLF soldiers but it wasn't because they were japanese, it was because it was literally a massacre. Since we say Lelouch is a good person because he hesitates or admits its evil to murder people, we should give Suzaku some benefit on his side.

Does his logic make sense though? If he was truly this large of a pacifist, wouldn't he try to do things in a more peaceful manner? It's like saying, "I'm the biggest pacifist in the world, and in order to show you I'm a pacifist, I'm gonna do violence."

[Lowell1025]

THough the thing that baffles me is how Nunnally/Suzaku argue about changing the world and they are using Japan to do it. Those poor people:heh:


Well if in eps 3 they had a screencap that explained:
"Nunally and Suzaku was assigned to be governor of the whole Eastern Britania, they wont be appearing in this season. Please enjoy the rest of the show with Zero in Japan"

I believe all around the world plane tickets to the city where Sunrise is based would be sold out overnight, along with many requests to bring extra luggages carrying hardwood material:heh:

[Kang Seung Jae]

Does his logic make sense though? If he was truly this large of a pacifist, wouldn't he try to do things in a more peaceful manner? It's like saying, "I'm the biggest pacifist in the world, and in order to show you I'm a pacifist, I'm gonna do violence."

In a dog eat dog world, no strength is a liability.


Consider whether Gandhi would have succeeded if it was Nazi Germany (an extreme example) that controlled India.

[Lowell1025]

I was talking about the viewers who are saying "I HATE SUZAKU SINCE HE IS A BLOODY BACKSTABBING TRAITOR WHO BETRAYS HIS OWN PEOPLE!!!", not the people in the anime.


Unlike the characters, we are allowed to have hindersight and judge based on what we know.

and then, may I ask your attitude towards those viewers that are saying"I HATE SUZAKU SINCE HE IS A BLOODY BACKSTABBING TRAITOR WHO BETRAYS HIS OWN PEOPLE!!!", ?

[DarkLordOfkichiku]

So is there any point to Suzaku becoming the Knight of One to govern Area 11? If Nunnally does a good job and stays then there's little point.

Maybe becoming the KoO is just his reserve plan.. Or he plans for them both to rule Japan side-by-side. Or it's possible that he's just using Nunnally and plans to relieve her of her "duty" of ruling japan after he becomes the KoO...

Pretty sure it's Suzaku hates people dying. period.
He's never shown any joy in killing his own kind either.

Yeah, in the picture drama, he says "If, on that day, I hadn't killed dad, this many people wouldn't have died." and he both says and shows aplenty of times in the first season how much he hates killing people. Not so much in season 2 though it would seem.. <_<.

[tenken627]

In a dog eat dog world, no strength is a liability.


Consider whether Gandhi would have succeeded if it was Nazi Germany (an extreme example) that controlled India.

So in your case, you are saying that Gandhi would resort to widespread violence? It's just not who Gandhi is.

If it was Nazi Germany, Gandhi would still advocate AND practice non-violence all the way to his death, successful or not.

[Kang Seung Jae]

So in your case, you are saying that Gandhi would resort to widespread violence? It's just not who Gandhi is.

If it was Nazi Germany, Gandhi would still advocate AND practice non-violence all the way to his death, successful or not.

And Suzaku is not a "saint" like Gandhi. He is your regular soldier who feels guilt that he might have led Japan to be in its current state, and want to change it.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Yeah, in the picture drama, he says "If, on that day, I hadn't killed dad, this many people wouldn't have died." and he both says and shows aplenty of times in the first season how much he hates killing people. Not so much in season 2 though it would seem.. <_<.

Nope he still hates it. He asks for the EEU soldiers to surrender. When they refuse he simply says, "How unfortunate." not "Yay yay yay kill kill kill kekekekekek."

But didn't Suzaku just use Nunnally for his own manipulative purposes when he was with Lelouch last episode? Does he really care for her and respect her when he does that random and illogical action?

I'm still willing to bet that Nunnally is not only Lelouch's weakness but Suzaku's as well. He has always taken care of her or looked after her.

If there's someone to rein him in it's Nunnally now since Euphie's dead. Funny how the britannian princesses have their ways with these warriors..:heh: I wouldn't be surprised near the end of the series it's Nunnally who calms Suzaku and forces him to reconcile with Lelouch or something similar(Big spectulation there).

Maybe becoming the KoO is just his reserve plan.. Or he plans for them both to rule Japan side-by-side. Or it's possible that he's just using Nunnally and plans to relieve her of her "duty" of ruling japan after he becomes the KoO...


Or he plans to use Japan as a springboard to increase his power to help change the world. Regardless he needs a royal member there and Nunnally's all there is (Forget Schenzeil man we don't even know what he wants)

Does his logic make sense though? If he was truly this large of a pacifist, wouldn't he try to do things in a more peaceful manner? It's like saying, "I'm the biggest pacifist in the world, and in order to show you I'm a pacifist, I'm gonna do violence."

I never said he was a pacifist. Like Lelouch he wants to end the fighting but like him they also admit that they will have to fight in order to achieve those means.

[orangejuicetang]

I'm pretty sure that Nunually volunteered to be governor. I don't think that Suzuku was like "Ah, the previous governor of Japan died to Lelouch, so I'm going to make the one person he can't kill governor and see what happens" Maybe the emperor could think of that, but I doubt it was Suzuku. And if Suzuku becomes Knight of One and Nunually is still governor, then I think Nunually will remain the governor, and all it means is that there is someone higher who would ultimately have the final say. Kind of like, she would become the vice-governor only still keeping the governor title, while Suzuku is just called the Knight of One. I also think that he hates people dying so he is willing to kill people because he feels that more people would die if he didn't. Actually, I think Gandhi once said that while he thinks that non-violence is the best possible solution, that violence was better than simply doing nothing. Or it might have been Martin Luther King Jr. Or someone else. I can't really remember so far back in my previous history classes, but I definately remember a really famous pacifist saying that.

[tenken627]

And Suzaku is not a "saint" like Gandhi. He is your regular soldier who feels guilt that he might have led Japan to be in its current state, and want to change it.

But he wishes protection of all life on both sides. Not just the protection of his own people, but protection of the lives of the enemy.

And, when he killed his father, it wasn't like the Britannians were dying. Britannians pretty much easily blitzed through most of Japan. The ones who were dying were his own people. And then he killed his father.

It's like you hate all killing, so in order to stop killing, you help killers kill the victim.

[Kang Seung Jae]

It's like you hate all killing, so in order to stop killing, you help killers kill the victim.

A contradiction that is necessary, especially for a soldier.


To say that one is immoral or evil for committing such a contradition is to not know the pains such individuals go through.

[tenken627]

A contradiction that is necessary, especially for a soldier.


To say that one is immoral or evil for committing such a contradition is to not know the pains such individuals go through.

I see, so if you help killers kill the victim, there will be no more victims left to kill and then there will be peace.

[thedonkiluminati]

A contradiction that is necessary, especially for a soldier.


To say that one is immoral or evil for committing such a contradition is to not know the pains such individuals go through.


It was Suzaku's choice to join the Britainnian miltary. Nobody forced him to.

[Lowell1025]

But he wishes protection of all life on both sides. Not just the protection of his own people, but protection of the lives of the enemy.

And, when he killed his father, it wasn't like the Britannians were dying. Britannians pretty much easily blitzed through most of Japan. The ones who were dying were his own people. And then he killed his father.

It's like you hate all killing, so in order to stop killing, you help killers kill the victim.

Okay here's two ways to look at the results of Suzaku's actions

Opinion1. when he killed his father Suzaku prevented more people dying from war, on both sides. More people would of died had war dragged on.

opinion 2 Suzaku killed his father, thus letting Britanians easily crush the remianing Japanese forced. His actions resulted in death of his fellow countrymen!!

I duno...both opinions seems right?

[Kang Seung Jae]

I see, so if you help killers kill the victim, there will be no more victims left to kill and then there will be peace.

Okay, that was a real low way of twisting words.

You're supposed to protect the lives of all people. If some terrorist/freedom fighter tries to cause mass murder, whether by bomb, poison gas, landslides, etc, will you just stand by while they do their work?

Unlike most people who don't know the pains of having to kill to protect, I've actually had to do skimishes in the DMZ during my Marine service. I'm not one to advocate killing, but when there is someone who is willing to kill your family, your friends, your people on a mass scale, I would pull the trigger, and I have done so. My hands are dirty with blood, but when we consider what could have happened, I try to live with it.

That's the dilemna I live with. Fortuately, I'm not in Suzaku's place, where I'm working for an occupying power. However, the overall principles are the same: sometimes you have to kill to prevent more killings.

[DarkLordOfkichiku]

I'm pretty sure that Nunually volunteered to be governor.

Yes, though I wonder what made her do it? Personally I'm thinking that while she did indeed volunter, she was probably told a lot by Suzaku what a wonderful person Euphie was and what a wonderful ideal he and she had and so on... Which made her want to try and make it all a reality once she heard that the governor spot was free (well, that's part of it at the very least - but I'm sure there's more to it, considering that both Suzaku and the emperor should know that Nunnally out of all people is the worst possible opponent for Lelouch).

And if Suzuku becomes Knight of One and Nunually is still governor, then I think Nunually will remain the governor, and all it means is that there is someone higher who would ultimately have the final say. Kind of like, she would become the vice-governor only still keeping the governor title, while Suzuku is just called the Knight of One.

Well, probably so - though I wonder if the series will really get to the spot where Suzaku becomes the KoO while Nunnally is still the governor...

[orangejuicetang]

"Gandhi steadfastly avoided violence towards his opponents. The non-violent activist, while willing to die, was never willing to kill. Gandhi pointed out three possible responses to oppression and injustice. One he described as the coward's way: to accept the wrong or run away from it. The second option was to stand and fight by force of arms. Gandhi said this was better than acceptance or running away. But the third way, he said, was best of all and required the most courage: to stand and fight solely by non-violent means." Found the lines I was looking for. However, when he killed his father, Japenese was dying. If his father survived, there probably wouldn't be any Japenese or at least significantly less since he was advocating resisting until the last Japenese had died. And this is not considering the bloody battleground the country becomes when the E.U. and Chinese Confederation decide to have a little three way war on the island with the Japenese caught in the middle. However, currently there is still a sizable amount of Japenese living, though maybe not in ideal conditions.

[tenken627]

Okay, that was a real low way of twisting words.

You're supposed to protect the lives of all people. If some terrorist/freedom fighter tries to cause mass murder, whether by bomb, poison gas, landslides, etc, will you just stand by while they do their work?

Unlike most people who don't know the pains of having to kill to protect, I've actually had to do skimishes in the DMZ during my Marine service. I'm not one to advocate killing, but when there is someone who is willing to kill your family, your friends, your people on a mass scale, I would pull the trigger, and I have done so. My hands are dirty with blood, but when we consider what could have happened, I try to live with it.

That's the dilemna I live with. Fortuately, I'm not in Suzaku's place, where I'm working for an occupying power. However, the overall principles are the same: sometimes you have to kill to prevent more killings.

I'm proud of your service as a Marine in the DMZ. I'm actually Korean. Thank you for your service.

But, like I said, I know where your coming from, but it's not what I am trying to say.

Someone is trying to kill your family friends and people. You will pull the trigger to stop them you said. I would do the same even though I do not advocate the killing of anyone.

But, what if someone is trying to kill your family, friends, and people, and instead of shooting the enemy, you would pull the trigger on your own people???

[DN24]

It was Suzaku's choice to join the Britainnian miltary. Nobody forced him to.

What else can he do to help? Join the JLF?? Japan resistance groups are hopeless fools until Zero appear and Zero never shows his face to Suzaku.If he know LL=Zero he might have joined the rebellion

[thedonkiluminati]

What else can he do to help? Join the JLF?? Japan resistance groups are hopeless fools until Zero appear and Zero never shows his face to Suzaku.If he know LL=Zero he might have joined the rebellion

He could have done nothing. He didn't have to do anything.

[DarkLordOfkichiku]

If he know LL=Zero he might have joined the rebellion

I'm not so certain of that - after all, suzaku is very stubborn about doing things "his" way, and since he already showed that he didn't approved of Zero's ways, there's very little chance that he'd have joined, so had Lelouch shown his face to Suzaku back then, he'd most likely have ended up placing himself into a bad situation (Suzaku would've known who he were and might've ended up arresting him a lot earlier then).

[Kang Seung Jae]

But, what if someone is trying to kill your family, friends, and people, and instead of shooting the enemy, you pull the trigger on your own people???

I don't see how shooting terrorists is the same as shooting your own people.


We can use the Japanese occupation of Korea to compare. While the Korean Resistence mainly focused on attacking only the military or high officials, the JLF and other rebels in CG are more like the Palestinians, using attacks on civilians as well as on the government/military.


That's where we see a major: When you have your own people using methods of mass murders against enemies and friends alike, it's better to stop the terrorists before they do more harm than good.

[orangejuicetang]

I think the situation would be more like one of your friends pissed off a powerful organazation and is now trying to kill your family and friends, but would lose interest if your friend died. Would you shoot your friend to save your family and other friends?

[Lowell1025]

That's the dilemna I live with. Fortuately, I'm not in Suzaku's place, where I'm working for an occupying power. However, the overall principles are the same: sometimes you have to kill to prevent more killings.

But have you ever wondered how that have come to be in the first place, and what is still causing it, and how one can do to cause change so that it won't happen again?

[Sol Falling]

1. I imagnined bashings Suzaku dislikers would dish out if it is proven he planned it all along :heh:

Heh, it's true, bashers are annoying. Still, though, I think the idea of Suzaku planning his patricide adds a great deal of depth to his character, since children, even if they are often impulsive and self-centered, are also sometimes smarter than people give them credit for. Furthermore, Suzaku's value systems before meeting Lelouch, after meeting Lelouch, and then after his patricide have a lot of coherency and a sense of progression if you approach them with the assumption that he planned it.

If you want my personal opinion on the matter, I'm at a stage where I try to refrain myself from judging others. It's another person's life, and if you reflect back on yourself, you'd notice times when you lost control and made mistake also. As the saying goes, "A true gentlemen can forgive all mistakes but the ones made by himself." Although I don't give a dang about gentlemen, I do believe in the rest. Unless I can't think of another way, I'd like to keep opinions on these matters open / undiscussed, and just look after my own.

While I can understand a bit as to why Suzaku killed his father, I'm no Suzaku. Although I lost them now, I had a very close and caring family. My relation with my dad is completely different and inevitably, I am biased towards Suzaku's action. The point here is, my feelings towards Suzaku's case will inevitably be based somewhat on my experiences and my feelings (to what extent can vary), no matter how well or reasonable the case is presented or how hard I try to be objective. This feeling is not something you can easily win over/turn aside with arguments and facts. The same thing goes for other people too. If you are truely empathetic and can understand that, then perphaps you can communicate with others without ending up having one feeling going up against another ( I see a lot of argument on this board ended up like this), but come to understand each other's position better instead, and perhaps learn more about the aspects of the issue you are discussing - ultimately, end up with a better judgment on the issue.

Heh. Come on now, objectivity isn't that hard to achieve. Why would you be biased towards or against Suzaku on the basis of your own family experiences, when its his own as portrayed by the authors that is to be assessed? If one can achieve the empathy to converse with other posters as to the right or wrongness of Suzaku, then surely one must also possess the empathy to see things from his point of view and refrain from judging him. It's almost a given that someone who hates Suzaku because they cannot empathise with him will also be unable to empathise with you enough to enrich your perceptions of him.

Although I guess it wasn't moral outrage on your part, so there isn't much left to discuss here.

Actually morally, Suzaku is better than Lelouch when it comes to accepted ethical standards. Lelouch is the one putting innocent lives in harm's way.

Suzaku is just, really really weird in his thought patterns for lack of a better description. He says things that contradict each other. He acts in a certain way that contradicts with his words. He tries to justify his actions, but you're left going like "huh?" after you hear his rationalization. And he doesn't even notice it.

It's not that Suzaku is an evil person. It is very easily arguable that Lelouch is much more evil compared to Suzaku.

But, Suzaku is just a really poorly made character. It's just kinda like Suzaku has split personalities, where different sides of him are just not aware of the others.

Is he a character that is willing to do whatever it takes to get what he wants or is he a character that hates that line of thought? He shows both ends of the spectrum that are in direct conflict with each other.

Is he a character that feels violence is so wrong that he will use violence to support those who first commit and continue violence? wth?

I don't necessarily hate Suzaku himself, I just don't like how they made him. And I like antagonists. It feels like they just thought an antagonist child-hood friend on the Empire's side would make a really cool character, but they built his character up so randomly and illogically.

:P Hm, not so fast. Plenty of people have already declared Suzaku evil and hateful for enabling a despotic empire to oppress his own people. Despite his 'antihero' status, the show's portrayal of Lelouch's character actually engages in a lot of pandering to 'accepted ethical standards'.

And really, I very much challenge the idea of Suzaku being a poorly written character. Beyond his contrasts and parallels with Lelouch, there are also quite a few nuances to Suzaku which are all his own. I've already noted the nuances in his personality as a child, where Suzaku was not Lelouch's equal as Suzaku admired his drive for independance and perseverance through tremendous tragedy. Suzaku also seems to see himself as somebody who has already walked Lelouch's path and knows what lays at the ends of it, which shows that he can understand Lelouch's way of thinking with some degree of certainty. His relationship with Euphemia also highlighted his previous hatred for himself and his belief that he was just not good enough, hammered into him from his childhood and reinforced by his failure to protect the Japanese people during the war.

As for his ideals, the two you highlighted are a bit of a misrepresentation. Suzaku's whole 'using the wrong means is worthless' spiel is really just a somewhat vague expression of his belief that 'Rules must be followed'. This is just a reflection of his belief that no human is so perfect that they are never wrong, so it is best to follow conventions because it is safe (maybe a cowardly principle, but you can see where he's coming from when the one time he acted above the rules set up for him as a child was when he killed his father and caused the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians, can't you?). It's not about whether the lives lost are worth it or anything, it's actually just about the chances of making a mistake.

Suzaku's other ideal, which you seem to be interpreting as 'violence is wrong', is actually limited to 'hurting innocents is wrong', same thing as Lelouch. For Suzaku though, rather than defining the 'innocent' as those who are weak, he considers them to be those who follow the rules. As such, although he's a nice enough guy to not want to kill in general, the only ones he feels it is his moral imperative to spare are those who aren't fighting against him.

Thinking about it that way, there aren't really too many contradictions at all, now are there?

[Witacume]

Suzaku resolve and ideas are very grey so are some of Lelouch methods. Thats not what bother's me about him. The problem is that he sometimes blindly obeys orders. his fight with the EU he would kill people but when it come to massacre he would not take part of it but neither would he stop it. I can not stand a person that says he has the moral high ground then not follow through with his per say morals. You may not be pulling the trigger but the people you work for are. Your hands are just as bloody. yet he ignores this. I would at least make me somewhat understand him better if he at least felt some anguish instead he runs away from facing his problems.

So far what we have learn of Suzaku is that he is more of the same. He strives to the knight of one but what he doesn't take into account is that will the emperor even let him becomethe knight of one? He still has somewhat of a naive sense of Justice and thinking what he is doing is right. I rather watch LULU at least anguish what he has done rather than a person who runs away from his problems. Not saying what lulu doing is right but at least he is better to relate to. I believe the writers are portraying suzaku as such. One hint is that the knightmare he is riding is the Lancelot. The most hated knight of the round.

Edit: the only part of Suzaku i like is that he is so hate able! come on ever series needs one of those.

[Kang Seung Jae]

I think the situation would be more like one of your friends pissed off a powerful organazation and is now trying to kill your family and friends, but would lose interest if your friend died. Would you shoot your friend to save your family and other friends?

1. How did the friend piss off the organization? By bombing their headquarters and killing innocent by-standers, by killing a leader, or by bothering their business?

2. Is the organization indiscriminatingly trying to kill my family and friends?


But have you ever wondered how that have come to be in the first place, and what is still causing it, and how one can do to cause change so that it won't happen again?

If I'm an outsider viewer (like what we are while watching Code Geass), and had the power to do everything my way (like the script writers), then yes, I would hve done something.

Unfortuately, I'm not in a position of power yet, nor do I have some superpower like the Geass, nor do I have enough influence to be a cool observer.

[dom33]

But didn't Suzaku just use Nunnally for his own manipulative purposes when he was with Lelouch last episode? Does he really care for her and respect her when he does that random and illogical action?





Does his logic make sense though? If he was truly this large of a pacifist, wouldn't he try to do things in a more peaceful manner? It's like saying, "I'm the biggest pacifist in the world, and in order to show you I'm a pacifist, I'm gonna do violence."

he does seem to care for Nunally despite keeping her away from her reason for living...:twitch: that makes as much sense as anything else he does.


as for violent pacifist that reminds me of gundam wing.

[tenken627]

I don't see how shooting terrorists is the same as shooting your own people.


We can use the Japanese occupation of Korea to compare. While the Korean Resistence mainly focused on attacking only the military or high officials, the JLF and other rebels in CG are more like the Palestinians, using attacks on civilians as well as on the government/military.


That's where we see a major: When you have your own people using methods of mass murders against enemies and friends alike, it's better to stop the terrorists before they do more harm than good.

Ok, do you really see the Order of Black Knights targeting civilians specifically, Japanese or Britannian? I don't remember seeing anyone ordering the killing of any civilians period in the series. They really are more like the Korean Resistance moreso than the Palestinians.

The Japanese civilians, Suzaku's people, love the Black Knights. The Britannian civilians fear the Black Knights, but that is mostly because the Britannian government has named them terrorists and enemies of the state moreso than any large killings of Britannian civilians. Many Britannian civilians are actually intrigued by the Black Knights.

[Witacume]

he does seem to care for Nunally despite keeping her away from her reason for living...:twitch: that makes as much sense as anything else he does.


as for violent pacifist that reminds me of gundam wing.

lol violent pacifist! well that's oxymoron. and there is no such thing. There is though a person who claims to be pacifist but is violent.

[Kang Seung Jae]

Ok, do you really see the Order of Black Knights targeting civilians specifically, Japanese or Britannian? I don't remember seeing anyone ordering the killing of any civilians period in the series. They really are more like the Korean Resistance moreso than the Palestinians.

I was mainly talking about JLF and other such organizations.

As for OoBK, Britannia never went into direct conflict with them until the SAR fiasco, although OoBK was "helping" JLF and other such organizations. The two even worked together during the Kyushu battle.

[tenken627]

And really, I very much challenge the idea of Suzaku being a poorly written character. Beyond his contrasts and parallels with Lelouch, there are also quite a few nuances to Suzaku which are all his own.

Poorly written seems to be a bad choice of words. I agree. Maybe, "certain aspects really not fully thought out and pushed under the rug through some other random explanations" seems like a better description. I agree that he does have his own unique nuances.

As for his ideals, the two you highlighted are a bit of a misrepresentation. Suzaku's whole 'using the wrong means is worthless' spiel is really just a somewhat vague expression of his belief that 'Rules must be followed'. This is just a reflection of his belief that no human is so perfect that they are never wrong, so it is best to follow conventions because it is safe (maybe a cowardly principle, but you can see where he's coming from when the one time he acted above the rules set up for him as a child was when he killed his father and caused the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians, can't you?). It's not about whether the lives lost are worth it or anything, it's actually just about the chances of making a mistake.

Suzaku's other ideal, which you seem to be interpreting as 'violence is wrong', is actually limited to 'hurting innocents is wrong', same thing as Lelouch. For Suzaku though, rather than defining the 'innocent' as those who are weak, he considers them to be those who follow the rules. As such, although he's a nice enough guy to not want to kill in general, the only ones he feels it is his moral imperative to spare are those who aren't fighting against him.


I agree with you that there is no set of rules that governs everyone's thoughts.

I'm not really saying that Suzaku is wrong. I am saying that the justifications given by Suzaku for his actions do not justify what he is doing.

That means either:

A) Suzaku is lying about his justifications (or he is deceiving in action).

or

B) Suzaku is retarded and ignorant and cannot rationalize his thoughts.

or

C) It's just poor work done by the writing staff and swept under the rug and just shrugged off.

or

D) Suzaku is schizophrenic.

[Lowell1025]

Heh. Come on now, objectivity isn't that hard to achieve. Why would you be biased towards or against Suzaku on the basis of your own family experiences, when its his own as portrayed by the authors that is to be assessed? If one can achieve the empathy to converse with other posters as to the right or wrongness of Suzaku, then surely one must also possess the empathy to see things from his point of view and refrain from judging him. It's almost a given that someone who hates Suzaku because they cannot empathise with him will also be unable to empathise with you enough to enrich your perceptions of him.

Although I guess it wasn't moral outrage on your part, so there isn't much left to discuss here.


uhh....my biaseness have a level, and Human psyche are very complicated. They say that human can possess many different emotions at a time and frankly, what I feel towards this Suzaku character is mixed. The very "objective" part of me observes his reasons for doing such things and does feel sorry for having to killed his father that way, but there's another part of me, who's very intimate towards the father figure that dislikes Suzaku for killing his father. Have you ever being in situations when you know full well you shouldnt feel certain way but you just do, eventhough you can control your actions but deep down inside you still feel that way? Well that's the sort of situation I'm in right now.

I'm sorry to have to cut this discussion short but....I need sleep now. 1AM @_@
Maybe we can ponder about this some other time

[Witacume]

Poorly written seems to be a bad choice of words. I agree. Maybe, "certain aspects really not fully thought out and pushed under the rug through some other random explanations" seems like a better description. I agree that he does have his own unique nuances.



I agree with you that there is no set of rules that governs everyone's thoughts.

I'm not really saying that Suzaku is wrong. I am saying that the justifications given by Suzaku for his actions do not justify what he is doing.

That means either:

A) Suzaku is lying about his justifications (or he is deceiving in action).

or

B) Suzaku is retarded and ignorant and cannot rationalize his thoughts.

or

C) It's just poor work done by the writing staff and swept under the rug and just shrugged off.

or

D) Suzaku is schizophrenic.

/clap great analysis i vote for b

[Lowell1025]

Poorly written seems to be a bad choice of words. I agree. Maybe, "certain aspects really not fully thought out and pushed under the rug through some other random explanations" seems like a better description. I agree that he does have his own unique nuances.



I agree with you that there is no set of rules that governs everyone's thoughts.

I'm not really saying that Suzaku is wrong. I am saying that the justifications given by Suzaku for his actions do not justify what he is doing.

That means either:

A) Suzaku is lying about his justifications (or he is deceiving in action).

or

B) Suzaku is retarded and ignorant and cannot rationalize his thoughts.

or

C) It's just poor work done by the writing staff and swept under the rug and just shrugged off.

or

D) Suzaku is schizophrenic.

Just Before I go:

Perhaps we should engage in finding a statement that doesn't allow any instances of personal opinion/values before we go on and discuss about Suzaku :heh:

[Kang Seung Jae]

Poorly written seems to be a bad choice of words. I agree. Maybe, "certain aspects really not fully thought out and pushed under the rug through some other random explanations" seems like a better description. I agree that he does have his own unique nuances.



I agree with you that there is no set of rules that governs everyone's thoughts.

I'm not really saying that Suzaku is wrong. I am saying that the justifications given by Suzaku for his actions do not justify what he is doing.

That means either:

A) Suzaku is lying about his justifications (or he is deceiving in action).

or

B) Suzaku is retarded and ignorant and cannot rationalize his thoughts.

or

C) It's just poor work done by the writing staff and swept under the rug and just shrugged off.

or

D) Suzaku is schizophrenic.


I chose E) It's better to work with a power that isn't cruel enough to completely crush his people than it is to work with a group that attempts to do a futile war against the power while causing many civilian deathes.

[DJ_RockmanX]

Just Before I go:

Perhaps we should engage in finding a statement that doesn't allow any instances of personal opinion/values before we go on and discuss about Suzaku :heh:

Suzaku is a complicated son of a bitch. Just like Lulu.

He murdered his father under circumstances that have yet to be revealed, and he spent the greater part of his life afterward trying to justify that act.

In the process, Suzaku screws many of Lelouch's plans, which of course did not sit well with those who support the rebellion in the audience.

This is where most Suzaku hate begins and ends.

Then he found his pink haired princess, and decided to live his life for her. (I hate how corny this development was, but that's irrelevant.)

Then he lost his pink haired princess, and discovered that he has been fighting a war of ideals against his former best friend.

(This is where I actually began to respect Suzaku, because he threw away those useless rose tinted glasses from which he had been viewing the world.)

Then we reach R2, where Suzaku hate returned for reasons including screwing with Lelouch's plans again, and taking Nunnally away from Lelouch.

-------

I miss anything?

[tenken627]

I chose E) It's better to work with a power that isn't cruel enough to completely crush his people than it is to work with a group that attempts to do a futile war against the power while causing many civilian deathes.

So, using your analogy from before in the case of Korean Occupation, Suzaku would be like one of the many Koreans who sold out their Korean brethren to the Japanese, and then worked for the Japanese while they were out trying to conquer and oppress other lands just like Korea? (That's a very bad run on sentence. Sorry, I'm tired.)

[Kang Seung Jae]

So, using your analogy from before in the case of Korean Occupation, Suzaku would be like one of the many Koreans who sold out their Korean brethren to the Japanese, and then worked for the Japanese while they were out trying to conquer and oppress other lands just like Korea? (That's a very bad run on sentence. Sorry, I'm tired.)

Yes, although I consider Britannia to be MUCH kinder than the Japanese.

For all I can see, Area 11 is the Indian Crown Colony.

[tenken627]

Yes, although I consider Britannia to be MUCH kinder than the Japanese.

For all I can see, Area 11 is the Indian Crown Colony.

Hmmm, I don't know. Japanese people are pretty much relegated to "ghettos". Do you really see many Japanese civilians around, even though the setting is really Japan? They don't really seem well off to me. I saw a scene with a Japanese in one of the Britannia areas. The vendor. He was pretty much beaten until he was rescued.

[Kang Seung Jae]

Hmmm, I don't know. Japanese people are pretty much relegated to "ghettos". Do you really see many Japanese civilians around, even though the setting is really Japan? They don't really seem well off to me. I saw a scene with a Japanese in one of the Britannia areas. The vendor. He was pretty much beaten until he was rescued.

At least they don't go around killing civilians for nothing (although Clovis was an $^%$&% for destroying one of the ghettoes while trying to get C.C.), assimilating the culture, completely starving the Japanese, etc.

[Sol Falling]

I agree with you that there is no set of rules that governs everyone's thoughts.

I'm not really saying that Suzaku is wrong. I am saying that the justifications given by Suzaku for his actions do not justify what he is doing.

That means either:

A) Suzaku is lying about his justifications (or he is deceiving in action).

or

B) Suzaku is retarded and ignorant and cannot rationalize his thoughts.

or

C) It's just poor work done by the writing staff and swept under the rug and just shrugged off.

or

D) Suzaku is schizophrenic.

:P man, did you even actually read what I wrote? If you're looking for a rationalization of Suzaku's thoughts, I just provided it right there. Next time you find yourself thinking that Suzaku did something that's contradicting himself and feel like writing it off as bad writing, read that again and think about whether Suzaku's actions violate these two principles:

A) Rules must be followed
or
B) Those who follow rules must not be hurt

If it doesn't, then Suzaku is being a totally consistent and rational person, okay?

[Kang Seung Jae]

A) Rules must be followed
or
B) Those who follow rules must not be hurt

If it doesn't, then Suzaku is being a totally consistent and rational person, okay?

One argument that can be made against that is: Are the rules sensible?


Of course, our Suzaku doesn't really concern himself with such ideas.

[DJ_RockmanX]

One argument that can be made against that is: Are the rules sensible?


Of course, our Suzaku doesn't really concern himself with such ideas.

Methinks that Suzaku is playing by his own set of rules, like Lelouch is.

And look at what happens when you play in the same game with two different rulebooks.

[Irenicus]

Yes, although I consider Britannia to be MUCH kinder than the Japanese.

For all I can see, Area 11 is the Indian Crown Colony.
For Britannians. Japanese are pretty much driven into ghettos with no rule of law attached.

Even Clovis -- Clovis -- ordered a massacre of an entire ghetto without a blink of an eye after all. And it was accepted by the troops, the media, and the Britannian colonists like nothing happened. Sure, the common colonists didn't exactly explicitly *know* of these massacres, but it's not like many of them would care even if they do know.

The British had their share of crimes and oppression in the subcontinent (ignored by nostalgia-tinted outlooks of some "pro-Imperial" British as if nonexistent), but Britannia really is off the charts in "Evil Empire" status I think.

[Sol Falling]

One argument that can be made against that is: Are the rules sensible?


Of course, our Suzaku doesn't really concern himself with such ideas.

Yeah, that's pretty much his major flaw. On the other hand, Lelouch doesn't bother considering that question either: he's gonna destroy Britannia, regardless of whether they're decent people (i.e. Clovis).

Oh, and also, I'd butt into your conversation about how the Japanese are treated and mention that the six noble families of Japan, as well as the many dozens of other candidates Lelouch had for head of the Kyoto house, indicate that there were quite a few Japanese who were living in decent conditions.

[Kang Seung Jae]

For Britannians. Japanese are pretty much driven into ghettos with no rule of law attached.

Which was no different from India.


Even Clovis -- Clovis -- ordered a massacre of an entire ghetto without a blink of an eye after all.

To get C.C. on which his life probably depended upon.


And it was accepted by the troops, the media, and the Britannian colonists like nothing happened. Sure, the common colonists didn't exactly explicitly *know* of these massacres, but it's not like many of them would care even if they do know..

Which is the same even today, although mass murder wouldn't be as tolerated.


but Britannia really is off the charts in "Evil Empire" status I think.

You mean Britian, or have I missundertood your original meaning?

[DJ_RockmanX]

To get C.C. on which his life probably depended upon.

Don't give him the right to play God and end the lives of countless innocents in the process.

Which is the same even today, although mass murder wouldn't be as tolerated.

I hate ignorance, and that was one reason for my early hatred of Suzaku.

[tenken627]

:P man, did you even actually read what I wrote? If you're looking for a rationalization of Suzaku's thoughts, I just provided it right there. Next time you find yourself thinking that Suzaku did something that's contradicting himself and feel like writing it off as bad writing, read that again and think about whether Suzaku's actions violate these two principles:

A) Rules must be followed
or
B) Those who follow rules must not be hurt

If it doesn't, then Suzaku is being a totally consistent and rational person, okay?

Huh?

Which rules though? Whose rules? Any rules that are already in place? Japan's rules? Britannia's rules? Suzaku's rules that for some reason do not apply to Britannia?

So, those 2 criterias work only for Japanese or rebels and not his Britannian masters? Would those rules apply to the Emperor?

If it was a weak nation who invaded Japan instead of Britannia, would Suzaku still kill his father? Weak nation or strong nation, there is still hurting of innocents, so to stop the bloodshed, Suzaku needs to commit patricide?

[Kang Seung Jae]

Don't give him the right to play God and end the lives of countless innocents in the process.

I didn't say he had a right: I'm just saying it's not your usual case of Britannian oppression.


I hate ignorance, and that was one reason for my early hatred of Suzaku.

That we can agree on.

[DJ_RockmanX]

Huh?

Which rules though? Whose rules? Any rules that are already in place? Britannia's rules? Suzaku's rules that for some reason do not apply to Britannia?

So, those 2 criterias work only for Japanese or rebels and not his Britannian masters? Would those rules apply to the Emperor?

Suzaku's rulebook, page 27. Compare and contrast with Lelouch's rulebook, page 34. :D

If it was a weak nation who invaded Japan instead of Britannia, would Suzaku still kill his father? Weak nation or strong nation, there is still hurting of innocents, so to stop the bloodshed, I need to kill my father?

I think we really need a better picture of the circumstances in which Suzaku killed his father. That whole "I did it to save the people!' thing to me just sounds like a whole lot of self-justification for killing his dad.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Don't give him the right to play God and end the lives of countless innocents in the process.


More like he was using it to cover up. If word got out about C.C. then he'd be disowned and such. Probably even worse if Daddy found out he was playing with C.C.

I think we really need a better picture of the circumstances in which Suzaku killed his father. That whole "I did it to save the people!' thing to me just sounds like a whole lot of self-justification for killing his dad.

Why can't we just stick with a spur of the moment unless otherwise noted?

Kid was desperate to do something and in that rage he killed his father.

I mean he fell into shock after that.

[DJ_RockmanX]

More like he was using it to cover up. If word got out about C.C. then he'd be disowned and such. Probably even worse if Daddy found out he was playing with C.C.

Still doesn't make it right...

Why can't we just stick with a spur of the moment unless otherwise noted?

Kid was desperate to do something and in that rage he killed his father.

I mean he fell into shock after that.

Yeah, he's a messed up guy. He's made some progress, but he's still pretty messed up.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

For Britannians. Japanese are pretty much driven into ghettos with no rule of law attached.

Even Clovis -- Clovis -- ordered a massacre of an entire ghetto without a blink of an eye after all. And it was accepted by the troops, the media, and the Britannian colonists like nothing happened. Sure, the common colonists didn't exactly explicitly *know* of these massacres, but it's not like many of them would care even if they do know.

The British had their share of crimes and oppression in the subcontinent (ignored by nostalgia-tinted outlooks of some "pro-Imperial" British as if nonexistent), but Britannia really is off the charts in "Evil Empire" status I think.

Given the fact that the Britannian royal family disowned Euphie and called her a traitor I doubt even the citizens of Britannia could stomach such violent acts.

Regardless of how brutal the romans were even they had their limits to such violent and oppressive acts.

Still doesn't make it right...

No one said it was right

I didn't say he had a right: I'm just saying it's not your usual case of Britannian oppression.

but he's still pretty messed up.

Dude killed his father at such a young age, of course he's messed up.

[tenken627]

Suzaku's rulebook, page 27. Compare and contrast with Lelouch's rulebook, page 34. :D

Haha.

But, at least Lelouch mans up and knows that some of the stuff is wrong. He just feels like he has no choice but to continue.

Suzaku needs to continually make himself feel like he is one of the good guys.



I think we really need a better picture of the circumstances in which Suzaku killed his father. That whole "I did it to save the people!' thing to me just sounds like a whole lot of self-justification for killing his dad.

Yes, that would be Option A)

A) Suzaku is lying with/about his justifications (or he is deceiving in action).

What he used as justification isn't the real reason why he did it.

[DJ_RockmanX]

Haha.

But, at least Lelouch mans up and knows that some of the stuff is wrong. He just feels like he has no choice but to continue.

Suzaku needs to continually make himself feel like he is one of the good guys.

Yeah that's one thing that hasn't exactly changed with him, and pretty much the number one reason me no like the guy.

Yes, that would be Option A)

A) Suzaku is lying with/about his justifications (or he is deceiving in action).

What he used as justification isn't the real reason why he did it.

Me really wants to know why he done it. Perhaps I might feel vaguely sorry for him.

Given the fact that the Britannian royal family disowned Euphie and called her a traitor I doubt even the citizens of Britannia could stomach such violent acts.

Regardless of how brutal the romans were even they had their limits to such violent and oppressive acts.

No one said it was right

I didn't say he had a right: I'm just saying it's not your usual case of Britannian oppression.

Yeah, but trying to justify it using the Britannian/oppressor perspective irks me. :p

Dude killed his father at such a young age, of course he's messed up.

Lelouch can only dream of having done the same. :heh:

[SoldierOfDarkness]

But, at least Lelouch mans up and knows that some of the stuff is wrong. He just feels like he has no choice but to continue.

Suzaku needs to continually make himself feel like he is one of the good guys.

I find it amusing how everyone remembers every detail of Lelouch and justifies his acts so long as he sheds a tear.

Yet everyone completely forgets every detail of Suzaku where he admits that he's a son of a ****, a terrible person, and someone who doesn't deserve to even be a honored knight of Britannia. I mean if that doesn't stand out saying that he knows that his actions are descipiable then I don't know what else to say.

Yeah, but trying to justify it using the Britannian/oppressor perspective irks me.

Hey we justify Lelouch's murderous and traitiorous acts. Surely we can be more lenient with people like Clovis.

Even Toudo told Suzaku himself, once you choose your path then you'd better stick to that path to the end, regardless of what happens.

ANd since when did he say he's on the good guys' side? In fact where did ANYONE say they are the good guys?

[DJ_RockmanX]

I find it amusing how everyone remembers every detail of Lelouch and justifies his acts so long as he sheds a tear.

Yet everyone completely forgets every detail of Suzaku where he admits that he's a son of a ****, a terrible person, and someone who doesn't deserve to even be a honored knight of Britannia. I mean if that doesn't stand out saying that he knows that his actions are descipiable then I don't know what else to say.



Hey we justify Lelouch's murderous and traitiorous acts. Surely we can be more lenient with people like Clovis.

Even Toudo told Suzaku himself, once you choose your path then you'd better stick to that path to the end, regardless of what happens.

ANd since when did he say he's on the good guys' side? In fact where did ANYONE say they are the good guys?

Intended perspective of the audience. That is the only answer.

[tenken627]

I find it amusing how everyone remembers every detail of Lelouch and justifies his acts so long as he sheds a tear.

Yet everyone completely forgets every detail of Suzaku where he admits that he's a son of a ****, a terrible person, and someone who doesn't deserve to even be a honored knight of Britannia. I mean if that doesn't stand out saying that he knows that his actions are descipiable then I don't know what else to say.

Hey we justify Lelouch's murderous and traitiorous acts. Surely we can be more lenient with people like Clovis.

Did someone recently say that Lelouch was a good guy, and what he is doing is a good thing? He's the protagonist, but that doesn't necessarily make him "good" morally.

Even Toudo told Suzaku himself, once you choose your path then you'd better stick to that path to the end, regardless of what happens.

ANd since when did he say he's on the good guys' side? In fact where did ANYONE say they are the good guys?

So, Suzaku made those exact justifications for his own actions to make himself seem like a bad guy?

[DJ_RockmanX]

Did someone recently say that Lelouch was a good guy, and what he is doing is a good thing? He's the protagonist, but that doesn't necessarily make him "good" morally. Lelouch himself doesn't feel that he is "good" morally.



So, Suzaku made those exact justifications for his own actions to make himself seem like a bad guy?

Again, perspective of the audience. People have a tendency of labeling good guys and bad guys only based on the perspective they are given.

[Sol Falling]

Huh?

Which rules though? Whose rules? Any rules that are already in place? Japan's rules? Britannia's rules? Suzaku's rules that for some reason do not apply to Britannia?

Right now, yeah, it's Britannia. Iunno though, can you give me some examples of Britannian's not following their own rules? I can think of episode 5, the internal conflict in the purists, and Darlton cracking down on the people who were taking bribes from Kyoto. Those work against your point, though :P.

So, those 2 criterias work only for Japanese or rebels and not his Britannian masters? Would those rules apply to the Emperor?

Eh? Those two criteria work for himself. Suzaku will always follow rules, and he will always try to protect other people who also follow the rules. Why would the Emperor or anybody else follow the principles Suzaku set up for himself?

If it was a weak nation who invaded Japan instead of Britannia, would Suzaku still kill his father? Weak nation or strong nation, there is still hurting of innocents, so to stop the bloodshed, Suzaku needs to commit patricide?

That depends. Japan had already lost and Genbu was adopting a do or die resistance when Suzaku killed him. If it was a weaker country, that probably wouldn't be necessary, and Suzaku probably wouldn't need to do so. And besides, isn't it more to the point that Suzaku thinks killing his father is a mistake and doesn't want Lelouch to repeat his mistake?

[DJ_RockmanX]

Right now, yeah, it's Britannia. Iunno though, can you give me some examples of Britannian's not following their own rules? I can think of episode 5, the internal conflict in the purists, and Darlton cracking down on the people who were taking bribes from Kyoto. Those work against your point, though :P.

Those "rules" were the standpoints of the individuals within the Purist camp and Darlton's own code. Of course they also just so happen to help the Britannian cause in general.

Eh? Those two criteria work for himself. Suzaku will always follow rules, and he will always try to protect other people who also follow the rules. Why would the Emperor or anybody else follow the principles Suzaku set up for himself?

"Rules" are merely the boundaries that Suzaku is willing to work in. They apply only to him really. I doubt many care about what he thinks about morals until he gains a seat of administrative power, which of course is his stated goal.

That depends. Japan had already lost and Genbu was adopting a do or die resistance when Suzaku killed him. If it was a weaker country, that probably wouldn't be necessary, and Suzaku probably wouldn't need to do so. And besides, isn't it more to the point that Suzaku thinks killing his father is a mistake and doesn't want Lelouch to repeat his mistake?

Other point is that Lelouch WANTS to make the mistake.

[Kang Seung Jae]

Other point is that Lelouch WANTS to make the mistake.

If that can be considered a mistake.

[DJ_RockmanX]

If that can be considered a mistake.

Didn't wanna use " ". This is the Suzaku thread after all. :p

[DarkLordOfkichiku]

And besides, isn't it more to the point that Suzaku thinks killing his father is a mistake and doesn't want Lelouch to repeat his mistake?

Well, Suzaku killing his father was an implusive thing that he immediately regreted (hence why he considered it a mistake in the first place), but Lelouch have had plenty of time to consider and rethink his point and he still maintains the same resolve: he wants to kill off his father, period :rolleyes:.

[tenken627]

I was going back through some of the pages and realized that I basically just ranted for 8 pages straight.

I apologize if I went over the top too much, and caused anyone to feel any bitterness.

I don't mean to be like Lelouch good, Suzaku bad. Or Suzaku good, Lelouch bad.

I just meant that Lelouch's thinking may be wrong, but you can see his train of thought, while Suzaku's train of thought just seems to be very random.

[DJ_RockmanX]

I was going back through some of the pages and realized that I basically just ranted for 8 pages straight.

I apologize if I went over the top too much, and caused anyone to feel any bitterness.

I don't mean to be like Lelouch good, Suzaku bad. Or Suzaku good, Lelouch bad.

I just meant that Lelouch's thinking may be wrong, but you can see his train of thought, while Suzaku's train of thought just seems to be very random.

One last time, for good measure. :p

Intended perspective of the audience. That is the only answer.

[tenken627]

One last time, for good measure. :p

Hey, at least it was fun. :D

[Ronin Aquila]

Here is a little AMV I made 2 years ago or so from a violent black comedy.

I'm presently very sure the following hilarious scenes is what any human being would want for that honorless, father-killing, country-selling, Nunalli-Chan manipulating mangy cur.

I present: What we all want to happen to Suzaku.

(Warning: Graphic Violent Content. Do not watch unless you are 18 years of age).

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/nQf4Zowi3Jg&hl=en"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/nQf4Zowi3Jg&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[Dean_the_Young]

Some people... really need to find something healthy to do.

[Eliarine]

Here is a little AMV I made 2 years ago or so from a violent black comedy.

I'm presently very sure the following hilarious scenes is what any human being would want for that honorless, father-killing, country-selling, Nunalli-Chan manipulating mangy cur.

I present: What we all want to happen to Suzaku.

(Warning: Graphic Violent Content. Do not watch unless you are 18 years of age).

http://youtube.com/watch?v=nQf4Zowi3Jg

Thank you very much for that undeniable proof that all Geass fans are impartial, mature and responsible, dear. And just so you know, you =/= every other person on Earth. Have a nice day.

[Ronin Aquila]

Thank you very much for that undeniable proof that all Geass fans are impartial, mature and responsible, dear. And just so you know, you =/= every other person on Earth. Have a nice day.

Immature, guilty as charged.

And when it comes to matters of politics, one can't afford to be impartial.

Though if I may: were I truly irresponsible, would I have put the "Don't watch Unless You Are 18 Years Old" warning?

Must be the stubborn part of the immature (IE. Humorous) aspect protesting.

Good Day.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Immature, guilty as charged.

And when it comes to matters of politics, one can't afford to be impartial.

Though if I may: were I truly irresponsible, would I have put the "Don't watch Unless You Are 18 Years Old" warning?

Must be the stubborn part of the immature (IE. Humorous) aspect protesting.

Good Day.

To be honest, I have trouble believing that the images were intended as humor. Even more so, when your focus on physical violence is exactly what Sunrise described as Suzaku's most deeply ingrain trait; everything Suzaku say, no matter how harmess, needed to give out a sense of murderous intent...

[Eliarine]

Though if I may: were I truly irresponsible, would I have put the "Don't watch Unless You Are 18 Years Old" warning?

Must be the stubborn part of the immature (IE. Humorous) aspect protesting.

Good Day.

Nah, if you were responsible you would not have posted that at all, since I do believe it's against the rules. And to further prove my point that you do not represent the entirety of the human race, let it be known that we have a very different notion of what humour is.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but not everyone wants Suzaku to die a most painful death.

[Ronin Aquila]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but not everyone wants Suzaku to die a most painful death.

Ok, I'm nothing big, but I'll be average sized enough to admit that I fall for the trap of using "everyone" quote "like minded individuals" out of convenience and prejudice (against what I dislike) more than anything else.

Begging your pardon.

[Aquaman OS]

Look for the last time Suzaku isn't going to be randomly killed in a horrible act of violence. If he does die, and thats if, it will be an important scene and people in show will be sad, or at the least consider it a needless waste of life.

But yeah none of this Suzaku gets his head blown off and Lelouch laughs and spits on his corpse. Not gonna happen.

[yezhanquan]

Guys, there are still more than 15 episodes to play the politics game out.

I personally don't see Suzaku as a power hungry maniac. Something is driving him to do what he did. Whether he regrets it is another thing.

[Dann of Thursday]

Suzaku isn't a power hungry maniac by any means. Just someone who is willing to do whatever is needed to achieve his goals. He's actually not that different from Lelouch anymore.

And whether or not it is sad in the event he dies depends on the kind of person he ends up being in the end. I don't see him playing the loyal Knight to the Emperor for the rest of series, though it might not change till the end if it does at all. And I don't mean he joins Lelouch or something, since the chances of that are pretty low. I'm not entirely convinced he's going to die at all.

[yezhanquan]

Suzaku isn't a power hungry maniac by any means. Just someone who is willing to do whatever is needed to achieve his goals. He's actually not that different from Lelouch anymore.



Agreed. Posted somewhere in the speculation thread on the same thing.

[Salt]

I wonder what is going to happen to him.

I feel that to some extend a part of him has died when he got geassed by Lulu.
The geass effectively destroyed part of his free will; he no longer has the freedom to take his own life.

I predict it's only a matter of time before the geass on Suzaku comes back to haunt him and Lulu.

That and it has been hinted through out the show that using a KF like the Lancelot has side effects.

I also have the feeling he will die via Lulu's hands. It would be the price Lulu has to pay for becoming king.

[Ice_Bullet]

I wonder what is going to happen to him.

I feel that to some extend a part of him has died when he got geassed by Lulu.
The geass effectively destroyed part of his free will; he no longer has the freedom to take his own life.

I predict it's only a matter of time before the geass on Suzaku comes back to haunt him and Lulu.

That and it has been hinted through out the show that using a KF like the Lancelot has side effects.

I also have the feeling he will die via Lulu's hands. It would be the price Lulu has to pay for becoming king.

if suzaku continues to be an asshole. i dont see why lelouch will feel any remorse for his actions.

[Salt]

if suzaku continues to be an asshole. i dont see why lelouch will feel any remorse for his actions.

To some extend he still considers him his friend.

And I have a hunch the reason Lulu will have to kill him is because of the geass on him.

[Dann of Thursday]

Who said Lelouch has any intentions of becoming King? Suzaku been alright so far actually.

[Ice_Bullet]

OMG SUZAKU. RIGHT? OMG. THE WORLD IS FALLING.

but that point is true. i can't argue with that..

and Dann is right. lelouch doesnt want to be king. he just wants to destroy britinnia and create a peaceful world for nunnally

[Salt]

Who said Lelouch has any intentions of becoming King?

It was part of the warning C.C give him when giving him the geass. That "the power of the king will make him isolated".
Accepting the geass effectively puts him on the road to become king.
Killing Suzaku, his best and first true friend would fit quite well with that prophecy that he will end up quite alone.

Suzaku been alright so far actually.

Well, the show is full of "ticking time bombs".

Lulu's geass is one of them.
The other maybe the side effects on Suzaku from using the technology in the lancelot.

Watching this show for this long.
I think you should by now know that no matter how well something seem to be going, something is bound to go wrong and the situation turns drastically for the worse.

[Dann of Thursday]

There was nothing about him becoming King though. Just that it was the power of the king. We still don't know what that even means.

[Ice_Bullet]

It was part of the warning C.C give him when giving them the geass. That "the power of the king will make him isolated".



Well, the show is full of "ticking time bombs".

Lulu's geass is one of them.
The other maybe the side effects on Suzaku from using the technology in the lancelot.

Watching this show for this long.
I think you should by now know that no matter how well something seem to be going, something is bound to go wrong and the situation turns drastically for the worse.

its kinda anticipated in turn 8 or 9. something will hapen to cause something to take a turn. Maybe lelouch reveal hes zero will impact nunnally. but i don't think he will reveal his identify just yet.

[Salt]

There was nothing about him becoming King though. Just that it was the power of the king. We still don't know what that even means.

Sorry about that, I edited my post to add some stuff. :heh:

Accepting the geass effectively puts him on the road to becoming king.
And according to C.C quite isolated he will be when he reaches the top, which is why C.C warned him before asking if he wanted the power.

[Dann of Thursday]

No, it doesn't. That was never said at any point. It makes you lonely because you become a freak with power that is dangerous. You don't need to be a king for that. I'm probably wrong though since I always seem to be.

[Ice_Bullet]

its alright. people are free to make assumptions. its okay to be wrong. humans are not perfect beings.

anyway, lelouch doesn't want the throne. he's sick of britinnia controlling them and wants to destroy it such that the world can be a better place and nunnally can live in peace

[Salt]

No, it doesn't. That was never said at any point. It makes you lonely because you become a freak with power that is dangerous. You don't need to be a king for that. I'm probably wrong though since I always seem to be.

its alright. people are free to make assumptions. its okay to be wrong. humans are not perfect beings.

anyway, lelouch doesn't want the throne. he's sick of britinnia controlling them and wants to destroy it such that the world can be a better place and nunnally can live in peace

I suppose both of you are right.

All that imagery symbolically linking Lulu to the King chess piece, in the OPs and all over the series, must have slew my judgment.

Nevertheless he has accepted the "power of the king". The permanent loss of Suzaku just might be part of the price.

Maybe lelouch reveal hes zero will impact nunnally. but i don't think he will reveal his identify just yet.

I think Nunnally kind of knows. ><
Women's intuition I suppose. :P

[Ice_Bullet]

I suppose both of you are right.

All that imagery symbolically linking Lulu to the King chess piece, in the OPs and all over the series, must have slew my judgment.

Nevertheless he has accepted the "power of the king". The permanent loss of Suzaku just might be part of the price.

lelouch hates suzaku to an extent. im sure he doesn't mind killing him. he stated so himself. hes lelouch's worst enemy. so im guess he doesn't care if he dies. But it might affect nunnally though. But if nunnally learns the truth.. opinions may change

[Salt]

lelouch hates suzaku to an extent. im sure he doesn't mind killing him. he stated so himself. hes lelouch's worst enemy. so im guess he doesn't care if he dies. But it might affect nunnally though. But if nunnally learns the truth.. opinions may change

I believe Lulu might a bit divided with regards to Suzaku, hence "my worst enemy, but nonetheless also my best friend".

I sure he hates Suzaku for what he has done, but I think part of him understands why Suzaku did what he did.

[Ice_Bullet]

I believe Lulu might a bit divided with regards to Suzaku, hence "my worst enemy, but nonetheless also my best friend".

I sure he hates Suzaku for what he has done, but I think part of him understands why Suzaku did what he did.

true that. i can't believe lelouch still considers him as a friend. if it were me. i can't give a damn

[Zarxs]

true that. i can't believe lelouch still considers him as a friend. if it were me. i can't give a damn

They were one another’s first friend and I can tell from experience that even in real life that is a strong bond. Besides I think Lelouch is prepared to kill him if he needs to.

[Eliarine]

lelouch hates suzaku to an extent. im sure he doesn't mind killing him. he stated so himself. hes lelouch's worst enemy. so im guess he doesn't care if he dies. But it might affect nunnally though. But if nunnally learns the truth.. opinions may change

...what. Lelouch *will* most definitely "care" if Suzaku dies.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

I believe Lulu might a bit divided with regards to Suzaku, hence "my worst enemy, but nonetheless also my best friend".

I sure he hates Suzaku for what he has done, but I think part of him understands why Suzaku did what he did.

Well you know there was that part where he made his lover go crazy and murder everyone and destroy all he worked for and all because of a bad joke.

I don't think telling Suzaku to "Suck it up that's life for you." is the proper way to go.

[Dann of Thursday]

Well, Suzaku thinks Lelouch did it on purpose, which doesn't help matters. I doubt he'd care if he knew it was an accident.

[Aquaman OS]

true that. i can't believe lelouch still considers him as a friend. if it were me. i can't give a damn

But he does. It's clear by now that Lelouch doesn't hate Suzaku. He considers him on the opposing side but he doesn't hate him and still considers him a friend. Ep 7 showed this. Suzaku haters are out of luck. Lelouch doesn't share your feelings.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Well, Suzaku thinks Lelouch did it on purpose, which doesn't help matters. I doubt he'd care if he knew it was an accident.

Note I said "all because of a bad joke"

I'd think it's better to stick with "on purpose" rather than "accident due to bad joke"

Especially if he knew what Lelouch told her.

[Dann of Thursday]

I guess that makes Lelouch a better person than them then?

[Amray]

I personally thought that Suzaku was an awesome character. If you looked at it from his point of view then he seems a really nice guy. XP
He is also kind of an Anti-hero in a way, as was Lelouch, although Lelouch would take out Britannians AND Elevens if need be, whereas Suzaku would most likely only do so to Elevens, especially if he was ordered to.

These are just my thoughts.

[Dann of Thursday]

Of course he is a nice guy from his point of view. He thinks he is doing what is best.

[Amray]

Indeed. He does seem a lot more big-headed about himself and his situation after you find out that He murdered his Father. But who can exactly blame him? XP

He is a nice guy as an Eleven (sorry Kallen, ofcourse I mean 'Japanese') especially when at Ashford Academy with Nunally, Lelouch and the others. There again that may be because they are all Britannians there. XD

[Dann of Thursday]

Actually, Taniguchi's intention was for him to only seem like a nice guy, but actually be an incredibly selfish person who only appeared that way to make himself feel better.

[Amray]

Hiding his feelings? He was always trying to hide the fact that he did it though, either to protect it from Lelouch and Nunally or just for selfish reasons.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Hiding his feelings? He was always trying to hide the fact that he did it though, either to protect it from Lelouch and Nunally or just for selfish reasons.

Well the selfish part comes from about only doing it to make himself feel good.

Though after the Mao incident I'm not so sure since he has been opening himself to Kallen and Euphie about what he did to his father.

[Amray]

Yeah that is true. The only reason Lelouch knew was because he was standing there in the same room. XD
Although I imagine that Suzaku would never had told Lelouch in person if it was not for Mao. Lelouch probably would have never found out......maybe. Lelouch did not seem to show much bother towards it anyway, he was too busy still recovering from worrying about Nunally and thinking about his next move against Britannia or what not.

[greyhawk]

"Friend" is a vague concept sometimes. They are still friends perhaps, just not like before.

[Salt]

Hiding his feelings? He was always trying to hide the fact that he did it though, either to protect it from Lelouch and Nunally or just for selfish reasons.

I say, it more for selfish reasons.

Mao who read his mind has no reason to lie to us.

I think this is why a lot of people dislike him, he keep saying Lelouch is going about things the wrong way, yet he himself is no better.
In the new season, he even go as far as to do the exact same things he criticize Lelouch for - causing collateral damage.

Then again I think most of us here are mistaken as to what his philosophy really is.
It's not to avoid collateral damage (ends vs means), he doesn't care about that as you can readily see.

I think people were right when they say he lives just to justified what he did to his father. To justified giving Japan up to the Britanians.

[Dann of Thursday]

Okouchi confirmed that Mao was telling the absolute truth so there is no doubt about that.

[Daito-kun]

The relationship between Lulu and Suzaku are very complex, and in the sam time, very simple. It's hate, wich become twisted due to their past friendship. Somethin, that can be resoleved in two ways - washed away with blood one of them or makin the max possible distance between those two, so the never meet again.
Personally I lost my respect to Suzaku in ep 2 of r2, when find out why lulu still alive. Suzaku simply did'nt kill him. WTF?!!! After all big talk about that now he has the one he hate, about zero's existance is a mistake, about other stuff... and he simply traded his best friend and best enemy to the Knight of Round position... To prevent himself from losin anyone dear to him again,as he said later. Where all those "change system from the inside" line go?!
well, at least, he became a little more honest.

[yezhanquan]

To me, Suzaku is a "neither-here-nor-there" type of character. He certainly isn't goody-two-shoes, yet he's not prepared to go "all the way", so to speak. Tell me there's a reason why he's like this.

[nines]

i think suzaku is just a user lets see he gets turns in his childhood friend to become a knight of the seven, saying that the geass was evil when hes like one of the right hand guys to one of the evil people. He just wants revenge on the japanese because of his father he even knowling trys to lour zero out with nunally hes not pro hero in any way hes all anti-hero and his brain has gone over to the radacilist like almost all of britanians

[orangejuicetang]

Most people you meet in life are people like that. They probably aren't saints and probably aren't practical to point of abadoning all morals. They fall into the gray area between the two.

[DarkLordOfkichiku]

The relationship between Lulu and Suzaku are very complex, and in the sam time, very simple. It's hate, wich become twisted due to their past friendship. Somethin, that can be resoleved in two ways - washed away with blood one of them or makin the max possible distance between those two, so the never meet again.

Well, I can easily enough see either of'em die at the end.. Or simply part ways forever.

To me, Suzaku is a "neither-here-nor-there" type of character. He certainly isn't goody-two-shoes, yet he's not prepared to go "all the way", so to speak. Tell me there's a reason why he's like this.

Perhaps it's just that he's trying to stay on the... borderline, sorta. He has at this point realized that sometimes, the "wrong methods" is exactly what you need to archieve the desired effects. However, he also can't go too much overboard, because if he starts doing too many "bad guy" things, then he cannot see himself as a "good guy" either - which I don't think he could endure...

[wingdarkness]

To me, Suzaku is a "neither-here-nor-there" type of character. He certainly isn't goody-two-shoes, yet he's not prepared to go "all the way", so to speak. Tell me there's a reason why he's like this.

The relationship between Lulu and Suzaku are very complex, and in the sam time, very simple. It's hate, wich become twisted due to their past friendship. Somethin, that can be resoleved in two ways - washed away with blood one of them or makin the max possible distance between those two, so the never meet again.
Personally I lost my respect to Suzaku in ep 2 of r2, when find out why lulu still alive. Suzaku simply did'nt kill him. WTF?!!! After all big talk about that now he has the one he hate, about zero's existance is a mistake, about other stuff... and he simply traded his best friend and best enemy to the Knight of Round position... To prevent himself from losin anyone dear to him again,as he said later. Where all those "change system from the inside" line go?!
well, at least, he became a little more honest.

Suzaku talks big to hype himself up so that he can atleast take on the task...What people forget or ignore about him is that he is a pretty tame guy in-terms of his base personality (Which is a complete opposite of Lulu who would have been an emo-cool, arrogant, pious a$$ even if he never got the geass)...Suzaku plays with a kitty-cat for fun for God's sake...When he didn't kill Lulu in ep 26, he prolly just wanted to make him suffer as much as he could without actually killing his friend (Perhaps even feeling in his warped mind like having his memories wiped and Nunally-wiped away by his hated father no doubt was worse than death, but something he could live with)...

Yes he hates him now, but I doubt he would ever just stab him out like he did his father in any scenario (Well until he turns into Anakin as the current course of this season suggests^^) ...You also gotta remember Euffie died in his arms like less than a couple of hours before he captures Lulu so he was high off hate-adrenaline at the time...After what Lulu did to Euffie on the surface (Which no one knows about STILL but C.C. and Lulu), Suzaku stop giving a damn...The girl died a painful, painful death right before his eyes, geassed-out fighting herself from killing him...That does something to a man I think, even if he still is wishy washy at times...Selling Lulu out was a fate worse than death for him...

[Dann of Thursday]

Actually, at his basest personality, Lelouch is pretty nice person in general. A little too nitpicky about things and with an ego, but nothing too big.

I think Suzaku may have thought he was helping Lelouch by getting rid of Zero.

[orangejuicetang]

I suppose if one want to get really technical, then technically erasing Lelouch's memories of being Zero is essentially the same as "killing zero", since it basically erases Zero from existence.

[wingdarkness]

Actually, at his basest personality, Lelouch is pretty nice person in general. A little too nitpicky about things and with an ego, but nothing too big.

I think Suzaku may have thought he was helping Lelouch by getting rid of Zero.

Lulu's personality (Atleast as a teenager as shown in the first few eps of R1) was a facade of sorts...Fake smiles, sometimes tolerating his friends more than loving being around them because deep-down was a maddening obsession to get revenge...His true colors came out in ep1 when he was confronted with possible death and wanted everyone in that Britannia squad to die...Now imagine Suzaku in the same scenario as Lulu in ep1, you gotta be a certain kinda mofo to accept geass and casually kill or torment people like Lulu does...Lulu still isn't very nice IMO, but he does have a deliciously amusing way of dealing with people...Don't get me wrong he still cares about his buds, but the feelings he shows is sometimes after the fact, after he geass'd them or hid something from them and he feels bad about it...

[Dann of Thursday]

That's being a bit harsh and doesn't really reflect what Taniguchi has said about the character. He did enjoy being around his friends and at his heart is a kind person. The first episode didn't reflect anything that wasn't already there. He dislikes Britannia and what it stands for, that's all.

[wingdarkness]

^Again I never said he doesn't care for his friends, but he seemed very aloof to me in many interactions with them in r1...ONLY NOW (as of ep R2-7) is he showing a deep caring for them that isn't some dark-fuel he uses to power Zero...I too think he's prolly more good-hearted than I'm giving him credit, but he has shown some moral indifference that doesn't support the claim of his kind-heartedness...I mean Light was somewhat kind too before he got the note...Lulu let his caring for his friends and sis manifest into a monster...Again, only now is he really showing non-impulsive reflections on what they mean to him...

[Dann of Thursday]

Well, for the record, Lelouch is nothing like Light in truth.

I'd agree that he is being a bit more honest about things like this now and isn't being so crazy anymore after the little stint in 7.

Enough about Lelouch though, this is the Suzaku thread.

[wingdarkness]

Well, for the record, Lelouch is nothing like Light in truth.


That depends on how you choose to attack that analysis, which I think I 'm pretty good at doing, but I will digress...I'm just saying power corrupts...Nice guys on the outside show their true colors when corrupted with power...I now suspect Suzaku will go down a darker path now to balance the scales a bit while Lulu moves back to the center from his last episode deep-end...

[Dann of Thursday]

Well, this season they plan on making Lelouch more likable and perhaps more of a hero than he seemed before. I don't know about Suzaku though. He could go either way depending on things. I haven't been getting any really hateful vibes off him, though that may sound strange.

[Aquaman OS]

That's because there isn't. Suzaku is being very professional about the whole thing. The idea that he has uncontrolable hatred at Lelouch for killing Euphie and wouldn't be able to sit in the same room as him without trying to stab him although expected, didn't happen. Suzaku's yet to mention anger about Euphie at all this season. Same with Lelouch. He's not really as pissed about his capture as he could have been. (Possibly because he knows he hurt Suzaku much more than Suzaku hurt him)

[Dann of Thursday]

He really has avoided the subject of Euphemia entirely except for those two scenes in 5. I think Lelouch is more pissed at his father than at Suzaku.

[Salt]

Lulu's personality (Atleast as a teenager as shown in the first few eps of R1) was a facade of sorts...Fake smiles, sometimes tolerating his friends more than loving being around them because deep-down was a maddening obsession to get revenge...

^Again I never said he doesn't care for his friends, but he seemed very aloof to me in many interactions with them in r1...

Well, you can't really blame him, his whole life up till he got the geass was a facade. He is a britanian prince masquerading as a student, living the fake life of a student because he had no choice.

His true colors came out in ep1 when he was confronted with possible death and wanted everyone in that Britannia squad to die...Now imagine Suzaku in the same scenario as Lulu in ep1, you gotta be a certain kinda mofo to accept geass and casually kill or torment people like Lulu does...Lulu still isn't very nice IMO, but he does have a deliciously amusing way of dealing with people...Don't get me wrong he still cares about his buds, but the feelings he shows is sometimes after the fact, after he geass'd them or hid something from them and he feels bad about it...

I think that might have been involuntary, based on his rather stunned expression when the soldiers just drop dead in front of him.
After all he just got the geass, it probably auto activated bring to life his thoughts at that time - after see the soldiers commit genicide at random & the situation he was in, he wishing they would shoot themselves isn't out of the ordinary.

Although through out the 1st season, he might have taken the geass a little too lightly, as pointed out by C.C, hence him geassing people when he feels it's convenient.

I too think he's prolly more good-hearted than I'm giving him credit, but he has shown some moral indifference that doesn't support the claim of his kind-heartedness...I mean Light was somewhat kind too before he got the note...Lulu let his caring for his friends and sis manifest into a monster...Again, only now is he really showing non-impulsive reflections on what they mean to him...

It's safe to say, he definitely has a sense of right and wrong.

But for the sake of his sister and to find the truth behind his mother assassination. He made the decision to become the devil himself, and to in his words "walk the road of destruction".

[kk2extreme]

:naughty:He is not becoming more evil, but emo instead

p.s. i wonder how emo can he get went nanaully dies

[wingdarkness]

Well, you can't really blame him, his whole life up till he got the geass was a facade. He is a britanian prince masquerading as a student, living the fake life of a student because he had no choice.

I'm not placing any blame or taking any away, I was just trying to solidify my position on how Lulu acted toward his friends in R1...It wasn't this loving, kind-heartedness Dann of Thurs was talking about IMO, not that that didn't exist under the surface...It was alot of disjointed aloofness, and quite honestly it was alot of tolerant-acting (Something he has shown in R2 aswell)...I mean in his mind he used to have so much more important things to do (In-terms of his revenge, before and after Geass), so he would put on his "friend-face" just to facilitate whatever interaction he had to do with them (Just like in R2-5)...

Clearly the staff felt like ep 7 was the perfect chance to take him out of the anti-villain mode and turn him into an anti-hero...I expect Suzaku to have a similiar effect just like Lulu, only it will be visa versa...

[blitz1/2]

:naughty:He is not becoming more evil, but emo instead

p.s. i wonder how emo can he get went nanaully dies

Emo to the point where my characters from my Code Geass fanfiction take advantage and kill him.

Anyways, when did Suzaku learn to command a ship/forces?

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Emo to the point where my characters from my Code Geass fanfiction take advantage and kill him.

Anyways, when did Suzaku learn to command a ship/forces?

The same way Roman generals does; the army itself is so well trained, armed, and obeident that they can generally take care of themselves unless the commander is mentally insane.
(Or if they walk into a trap, which happens for Romans once in a while too.)

[Luminion Lancer]

-After watching all the episodes currently available within the last 2 days (hoorah for lack of sleep) I got to say that I am not impressed with Suzaku at the moment. On the one hand he is certainly in love with an admirable idea but at the same time his methods are not at all compatible with that idea. He claimed recently that he wants to become a "Knight of 1" so that he can gain control of Area 11 and therefore, in his opinion, freedom for the Japanese. However there is a slight problem with that. No matter how high his rank as a soldier grows he will always be bound to Britania. Becoming Area 11's ruler will not change anything for the Japanese outside of receiving a new face for their government. At it's core Japan would still be under Britanian rule since their ruler is already a Britanian servant. And let's not rule out the possibility that if Britania decided to wage war on another country they can very easily demand that Suzaku send his people to fight someone else's battles (kind of like how several countries were pulled into WWI due to political/diplomatic reasons). In conclusion, Suzaku's goal is admirable albeit very long and strenuous and might be even doomed to failure considering the current emperor of Britania.

[tenken627]

The best stories with friends becoming enemies have the two friends being together for a long time with great camaraderie. Through these interactions, you can see a rivalry brewing and even jealousy spring up, where one overshadows the other or their relationship tips the other way and the other starts to hate that fact.

We know that Suzaku and Lelouch were friends a long time ago, but you don't really see much of that time. Right from the get go in the earliest episodes, you know that the two will be opposing each other from the start. Lelouch was already becoming Zero from the first episode, and Suzaku was already piloting the Lancelot.

It would have been really nice if the story had the two together from the beginning, and show the cracks starting to form within their friendship, and then finally splinter.

[Sol Falling]

...uh, but there weren't any cracks within their friendship. Lelouch and Suzaku started out hating each other, so the only way to go was up. The only got one summer together anyway.

Besides, there's isn't really a basis for jealousy or 'overshadowing' between them anyway. To compare Lelouch and Suzaku in tactical ability, or Suzaku and Lelouch in physical ability, would be ridiculous, and they both knew this from the start. There's friendly teasing on that basis from both fronts, but in fact the extreme seperation in their abilities actually enhances their bond, to the point where they both believe "We can achieve anything together". Add that to the fact that Lelouch and Suzaku have the same goals (happiness, a kind world), and you end up with what should have been an unbreakable bond.

[DN24]

-After watching all the episodes currently available within the last 2 days (hoorah for lack of sleep) I got to say that I am not impressed with Suzaku at the moment. On the one hand he is certainly in love with an admirable idea but at the same time his methods are not at all compatible with that idea. He claimed recently that he wants to become a "Knight of 1" so that he can gain control of Area 11 and therefore, in his opinion, freedom for the Japanese. However there is a slight problem with that. No matter how high his rank as a soldier grows he will always be bound to Britania. Becoming Area 11's ruler will not change anything for the Japanese outside of receiving a new face for their government. At it's core Japan would still be under Britanian rule since their ruler is already a Britanian servant. And let's not rule out the possibility that if Britania decided to wage war on another country they can very easily demand that Suzaku send his people to fight someone else's battles (kind of like how several countries were pulled into WWI due to political/diplomatic reasons). In conclusion, Suzaku's goal is admirable albeit very long and strenuous and might be even doomed to failure considering the current emperor of Britania.

I think the biggest flaw in Suzaku's plan is whether or not he can become the "knight of one",after that is pretty easy. He can even cut tie with Britania after a few year,now that Japanese can make their own Knightmare, having the best knight of Britania as their leader and all the Sakuradite in the world (70%) Britania wouldn't want to mess with them anymore.

send his people to fight someone else's battles

Actually this only might happen if Suzaku is in charge, but if Lelouch win then the Japanese will surely going to fight someone else's battle.

Btw, the emperor won't be around forever and someone else will replace him(if only "prince" Lelouch realize that to geass his way to the throne is much easier than to start a rebellion:uhoh:)

[Sol Falling]

And it's not like it's certain the Emperor is a bad guy anyways. Everything he's done has been to 'destroy the gods', he's been pretty reasonable (if not kind) otherwise, and until we find out what that means him being a hero is still just as likely as him being a villain.

Fukitsu Naruto, you mentioned in the other thread that Lelouch knows what kind of man he's dealing with, knows what kind of man is ruling Britannia but as far as I'm concerned Suzaku might actually have seen the bigger picture. Lelouch is obviously biased against his father for not caring about his perfect, innocent mother and still believes the Emperor is motivated purely by the Darwinist views he's espoused. Suzaku, on the other hand, knows the world isn't a happy place and has been shown the Emperor's true plans. The Emperor might not be a bad guy, and Suzaku knows that better than Lelouch.

[Silver Soul]

And it's not like it's certain the Emperor is a bad guy anyways. Everything he's done has been to 'destroy the gods', he's been pretty reasonable (if not kind) otherwise, and until we find out what that means him being a hero is still just as likely as him being a villain.

Fukitsu Naruto, you mentioned in the other thread that Lelouch knows what kind of man he's dealing with, knows what kind of man is ruling Britannia but as far as I'm concerned Suzaku might actually have seen the bigger picture. Lelouch is obviously biased against his father for not caring about his perfect, innocent mother and still believes the Emperor is motivated purely by the Darwinist views he's espoused. Suzaku, on the other hand, knows the world isn't a happy place and has been shown the Emperor's true plans. The Emperor might not be a bad guy, and Suzaku knows that better than Lelouch.

You have a great argument there mainly due to the fact that unlike the governor generals that have ruled Area 11 in the past plus the military officials we have seen we've yet to see any form of cruelty towards Charles himself, all the time he's seem busy with bigger plans than dealing with the Black Knights, everything else is either handle by the current governor general or the Britannia military, if he saw them as a threat I bet he could take them out in a snap of his finger but he seems too busy for a grand scheme with V.V. that we are all left in the dark with for now. Our only sort of glimpse we may have seen for him being an antagonist is the speech he gave in season 1 and R2 episode 7, his abandonment of Lelouch and Nunnally, and him laughing at Euphie's demise. If anything he to could be a pawn to V.V. and not just know it yet. With Suzaku its always hard to really point out what his true intentions are with all the hate he gets, the only time we got to see what was in his mind was with the Mao incident, he might also get the big picture as well but I think Lelouch got the big picure in the latest episode where in the next turn he might go bring down the Britannia's influence throughout the entire world with China's help.

[Luminion Lancer]

Actually this only might happen if Suzaku is in charge, but if Lelouch win then the Japanese will surely going to fight someone else's battle.

Btw, the emperor won't be around forever and someone else will replace him(if only "prince" Lelouch realize that to geass his way to the throne is much easier than to start a rebellion:uhoh:)

-Allow me to clarify then. With Suzaku in charge Japan will never be freed from Britanian influence. Everything will continue like it has been at the start of the series: Britanians will still be held in higher regard, the Japanese are still going to be referred to as dirt (with the exception of Suzaku himself). In other words, Britania would always keep Japan on a leash. Lelouch on the other hand wants all Britanian influence gone from Japan, or at least influence that his father has. The only difference between these 2 is that Lelouch's followers willingly set forth into battle believing he can grant them the Japan of the past. Whether this is the wrong method or not remains to be seen however.

-Why does something tell me that just because he is old he can be kept young and healthy with cyber-technology? Just look at Orange-kun...pardon me Jeremiah.

And it's not like it's certain the Emperor is a bad guy anyways. Everything he's done has been to 'destroy the gods', he's been pretty reasonable (if not kind) otherwise, and until we find out what that means him being a hero is still just as likely as him being a villain.

Fukitsu Naruto, you mentioned in the other thread that Lelouch knows what kind of man he's dealing with, knows what kind of man is ruling Britannia but as far as I'm concerned Suzaku might actually have seen the bigger picture. Lelouch is obviously biased against his father for not caring about his perfect, innocent mother and still believes the Emperor is motivated purely by the Darwinist views he's espoused. Suzaku, on the other hand, knows the world isn't a happy place and has been shown the Emperor's true plans. The Emperor might not be a bad guy, and Suzaku knows that better than Lelouch.

-I don't recall mentioning that the emperor was evil, just that Lelouch knows from personal encounters with him of his way of thinking (let's recall why both Lelouch and Nunnaly are in Japan). Not that I disagree with the notion that the emperor may not be evil but there are certainly a few things make me think otherwise. For the one part, he encourages his children to kill each other senseless to "prove their worth" in order to ascend the throne. But that's not evil considering he never told them openly to slaughter each other. He upholds inequality in the view of "only the strong survive". Last time I checked, the Code Geass world is not a jungle with humans being tormented by providence to the point where survival is an issue. Then again by that same notion, the moment Lelouch decided to wage war on Britania everything became fair game. Of course I might just be thinking too much and inputing real-life into a fantasy.

[tenken627]

...uh, but there weren't any cracks within their friendship. Lelouch and Suzaku started out hating each other, so the only way to go was up. The only got one summer together anyway.

Besides, there's isn't really a basis for jealousy or 'overshadowing' between them anyway. To compare Lelouch and Suzaku in tactical ability, or Suzaku and Lelouch in physical ability, would be ridiculous, and they both knew this from the start. There's friendly teasing on that basis from both fronts, but in fact the extreme seperation in their abilities actually enhances their bond, to the point where they both believe "We can achieve anything together". Add that to the fact that Lelouch and Suzaku have the same goals (happiness, a kind world), and you end up with what should have been an unbreakable bond.


...Huh?

Of course, that is how this story was made.

I am saying that it would have been nice if they went about it the other way. Lelouch and Suzaku being "friends" isn't really a huge point of emphasis in this story. It's just "there". The friends turning into enemies theme is a great one if done well. If it was done, it could have added to the story significantly. The story just didn't go that route, which to me is a shame.

Comparing this ability or that ability? I'm not talking about their abilities enhancing their teamwork, I'm talking about the aspects of relationships, especially in close friendship. Envy, desire, pride, anger, hate, love, respect, devotion, empathy, trust, etc.

Do you really care if your best friend runs faster than you or is better at chess? Only if you pride yourself in those areas as well. Jealousy or overshadowing can be wrought by one constantly in the limelight and the other not, correct? There are many ways that one friend can be overshadowed by another.

Friendships don't revolve around abilities. They constantly revolve around the interactions and the surrounding events.

[Dann of Thursday]

Neither Suzaku nor Lelouch seemed to mind what the other could do. In fact, they seemed to both value the other's abilities as they could work together so well.

[LastOrder]

Ok, do you really see the Order of Black Knights targeting civilians specifically, Japanese or Britannian? I don't remember seeing anyone ordering the killing of any civilians period in the series. They really are more like the Korean Resistance moreso than the Palestinians.

The Japanese civilians, Suzaku's people, love the Black Knights. The Britannian civilians fear the Black Knights, but that is mostly because the Britannian government has named them terrorists and enemies of the state moreso than any large killings of Britannian civilians. Many Britannian civilians are actually intrigued by the Black Knights.

Yeah, the Japanese Civilians basically hate Suzaku's guts now. I wouldn't blame them, I would hate him for being a traitor too.
Yeah, I'm not such a Suzaku fan either, I stopped liking him in episode 23. Despite the fact that I dislike him, I really love his character development, he's the perfect match for Lelouch. I just wish Lelouch and Suzaku could meet eye to eye again D:

[Stretch5920]

Yeah, I'm not such a Suzaku fan either, I stopped liking him in episode 23.

That's strange, most people hate him up untill episode 23.

[Dann of Thursday]

He became more realistic and naive after that episode after all.

[LastOrder]

That's strange, most people hate him up untill episode 23.


Lol hate, I don't hate Suzu, I won't bash him or anything, On the contrary I praise his personality and his role in this series, it gives the show more plot twists, which keeps the suspense up, which makes me happy. >_>; Even if he is my least favorite.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Allow me to clarify then. With Suzaku in charge Japan will never be freed from Britanian influence. Everything will continue like it has been at the start of the series: Britanians will still be held in higher regard, the Japanese are still going to be referred to as dirt (with the exception of Suzaku himself). In other words, Britania would always keep Japan on a leash. Lelouch on the other hand wants all Britanian influence gone from Japan, or at least influence that his father has. The only difference between these 2 is that Lelouch's followers willingly set forth into battle believing he can grant them the Japan of the past. Whether this is the wrong method or not remains to be seen however.

Japan's better off NOT being run by Suzaku.

Until Euphie's name is cleared, which will be impossible, that massacre will always tail behind Suzaku. Even if he brings it into some golden age or something they'll never get over that betrayal.

[DN24]

Allow me to clarify then. With Suzaku in charge Japan will never be freed from Britanian influence. Everything will continue like it has been at the start of the series: Britanians will still be held in higher regard, the Japanese are still going to be referred to as dirt (with the exception of Suzaku himself). In other words, Britania would always keep Japan on a leash. Lelouch on the other hand wants all Britanian influence gone from Japan, or at least influence that his father has. The only difference between these 2 is that Lelouch's followers willingly set forth into battle believing he can grant them the Japan of the past. Whether this is the wrong method or not remains to be seen however.

If Suzaku can become KoO he will have Japan for himself, he can do whatever he want with it and i don't think he will allow his people to be treated as dirt anymore.
To me Suzaku's "change from within" means to gain enough power to change the rule without too much bloodshed, when he obtain that power he won't just sit back and relax but begin making a better country where Japanese=Britanian.He's not as smart as Lelouch but that doesn't mean he doesn't have a brain!!

Until Euphie's name is cleared, which will be impossible, that massacre will always tail behind Suzaku. Even if he brings it into some golden age or something they'll never get over that betrayal.

I think common people are quite forgiving if you can feed them and make their lives better.After all he never fired a shot during that massacre and can get away easily with some pretty words.

[DarkLordOfkichiku]

Even if he brings it into some golden age or something they'll never get over that betrayal.

I'm not too sure of that. Sure, the massacre will always be a stain on his reputation with the japanese, but as Ashram pointed out in Record of Lodoss War the TV series, what the people in general want is not necressarilly to be freed from the country in question, but to be freed from tyranny - so as long as Suzaku brought some amount of peace and proserity to the people. they'd tolerate him at the very least. I sort of find it hard to believe that Suzaku'd succceed with that though; he's not the leader/politican-type, he's a warrior and idealist and that's about it...

[tenken627]

If Suzaku can become KoO he will have Japan for himself, he can do whatever he want with it and i don't think he will allow his people to be treated as dirt anymore.
To me Suzaku's "change from within" means to gain enough power to change the rule without too much bloodshed, when he obtain that power he won't just sit back and relax but begin making a better country where Japanese=Britanian.He's not as smart as Lelouch but that doesn't mean he doesn't have a brain!!



I think common people are quite forgiving if you can feed them and make their lives better.After all he never fired a shot during that massacre and can get away easily with some pretty words.

After Suzaku becomes Knight of One and picks Japan, what will he do?

Will he start creating harsh penalties for any Britannian that treats a Japanese wrong?

Will he force Britannians to give up their wealth and disperse it among the Japanese population?

How would the Britannians feel?

To say that you want to create equality is all nice, but it is much much easier said than done. To do it his way, he is going to have to change whole cultures, something that is not given up easily and not easily done even in one or two generations.

And, it doesn't give what the Japanese what they truly want. True self-governance and real sovereignty.

To achieve those goals, Suzaku wouldn't be aiming at ruling Japan under Britannia's name, he would be aiming for peaceful secession internally within the Empire.