Character Discussion - Lelouch

[willyvereb]

Out of the 5 mentions 3 was from the point of view of the characters(so debatable), one from the point of view of the populance of CG world(more debatable) and 1 somehow similar to me how CC "killed" in the first episode of R1.
Not to mention that dying is not atoning for sins...it's a runaway compared to the hell of immortality.
It perhaps means nothing...the only place where it can have impact the Kalulu pairing,but it's meaningless to bring up something that even just remotely have chance to true in a discussion.
It's another matter with the fanfics:P...not sure where to start but i'll start possibly a R3 fanfic(and many others...i'm not sure with which one i start)

[SonOfHeaven]

Well, I read some of those translated interviews with Okouchi and a few other staff members. They pretty stated that Lelouch is dead repeatedly. Would I want Lelouch to be alive? Sure(takes away the impact of the ending though). Because my other favorite character Kallen is waiting for him(Character song, this would be an interesting scene btw) and I'm sure he would have want to speak to Nunnally normally. However, its been confirmed that he's dead.

Besides we saw him take a sword in the stomach and die on screen. No reason to believe he's alive. Unless someone wants to write a fanfic about it.

[willyvereb]

IF he's alive i can imagine him atoning for his sins as becoming everlasting guardian of the peace he created.
IF Lelouch somehow got an immortality code,then even with it he's practiculary dead as Lelouch Lamperuge/Vi Britannia. Perhaops he first enjoy the peace he created in a remote place(with CC or not i leave it to your imaginations...even if with her it's not neccessary as his lover.).
That's all IF he "survived" it.
Perhaps it's the meaning of Fanfic that we must alternate the happenings somehow in the most cases to achive our goals. Perhaps as least as posible(it'sa rare case when the fanfic's writer better than the original's)
P.S: i don't belive in Okouchi's words after some of his irrational statements.(perhaps other staff members is another case)

[Rising Dragon]

It has been confirmed by Okouchi and in an official list of slain characters in Code Geass that Lelouch is dead. But if you refuse to believe Okouchi's word on the matter, then there's no point in continuing this discussion.

[Charred Knight]

IF he's alive i can imagine him atoning for his sins as becoming everlasting guardian of the peace he created.
IF Lelouch somehow got an immortality code,then even with it he's practiculary dead as Lelouch Lamperuge/Vi Britannia. Perhaops he first enjoy the peace he created in a remote place(with CC or not i leave it to your imaginations...even if with her it's not neccessary as his lover.).
That's all IF he "survived" it.
Perhaps it's the meaning of Fanfic that we must alternate the happenings somehow in the most cases to achive our goals. Perhaps as least as posible(it'sa rare case when the fanfic's writer better than the original's)
P.S: i don't belive in Okouchi's words after some of his irrational statements.(perhaps other staff members is another case)

Okouchi was the scenario writer of Code Geass, his the one who decided Lelouch should die, all of his statements have stated that lelouch is dead, and the guidebook mentions it three times, and the guidebook is written in the third person, and not in character of anyone.

[willyvereb]

ok...but if i remember he stated something like that Nunaly can see trough the people's hearts for example(if it's true then Lelouch can be found out at R1 by Nunally...not to mention the scene at ep 25)...
I was just curious...because for my fanfiction it's somewhat good if there is a chance(if even slight) for Lelouch being alive(as immortal). But nevermind...most of the fanfics detoriates the story already so it's nothing new if mine do it too...even if it's officialy stated that Lelouch died.

[Levy]

yeah, it's not in any way canon that Lelouch got a Code somehow and came back from death, but there's plenty of room for building a decent plot for a fanfic using this plot twist, in a story like Geass that got a lot of supernatural elements.

fanfiction is not supposed to necessary stick to canon, it's all up to you ;)

[youngde]

The simple fact of the matter is is that Lelouch is officially dead. Yeah, he took the chicken shit way out rather than atoning for the things he did, and that's BS, but then again, so was most of the last 5 episodes. Then again, SUNRISE does hold the rights to the character, so it's not like if they decide to make a new series they can't change their minds and retroactively bring him to life. It's not like they haven't done it before, which would be fine so long as they don't pull a Mu La Flaga on us. (I'm sorry, he was hit by a giant lasar and exposed to hard vacuum. There is no way in HELL he survived that). At least with the semi-magic of Geass, you could make something up that makes he's revival seem semi-plausible.

youngde, signing off.

[azul120]

Wasn't his choice to die at least partly motivated by him believing he didn't have a right to exist in the new world he helped create?

[bladeofdarkness]

he needed to die IN ORDER TO CREATE that new world
so thats kind of meaningless for him to think that he doesnt deserve to exist in it

i still think it was a stupid idea but what ever

[youngde]

Wasn't his choice to die at least partly motivated by him believing he didn't have a right to exist in the new world he helped create?

Honestly, I can't imagine Lelouch being so short sighted as to think that the world world would be all candy and gumdrops after he died. The simple fact is is that after he died, the world would be united in their common hatred of him for awhile. Let's face it, there would be some serious issues to be resolved between the UFN and Britannian Empire, even if Lelouch did wipe out lots of the possible descidence in his two month reign. The happy Ougi/Viletta wedding picture at the end was an ideal, but hardly what I think the whole world would be like. I can't imagine a random UFN citizen and Britannian meeting on the street and going, "You hated the Emperor, too? Let's be best friends."

Point is, Lelouch had a responsibility to watch over the fragile peace he helped create imo. But, meh, now he's dead and only the word of SUNRISE and revive him from the grave (officially).

youngde, signing off.

[morbosfist]

Though they should have done a better job in conveying it, it's not so much that their common hatred will keep the peace, but more of a lesson in just how bad they could have it if they don't cooperate. No one wants a repeat of Emperor Lelouch so they should do their best to keep that from happening.

[Waltz of Gemini]

Wasn't his choice to die at least partly motivated by him believing he didn't have a right to exist in the new world he helped create?

Seriously, sometimes I tend to think like that but after reading some stuff in the official guidebook in the LJ community, I think the creators made it look that way.

Since it stated that the only way Lelouch and Suzaku can truly forgive themselves is to impose the greatest punishments on themselves. Thus, I tend to think that their real goal was to punish themselves and the gentle world only came as a consolation prize, since they've planned the Zero Requiem without knowing about Nunnally's survival. (Bad characterization, don't you agree?)

And Zero Requiem was just that - to concentrate negativity on Lelouch so everyone can see the horrid face of war and tyranny. A more peaceful life emerged after his death and Zerozaku, the champion of peace, was there to keep it. Of course, everlasting peace is not possible, and humanity's dissent and self-interest will eventually break the peace. However Lelouch vi Britannia will become a constant reminder for them.

IMO...

[willyvereb]

I think it'll be more constant reminder if actually Lelouch lives(as an immortal) and guards the peace as atonement...perhaps if he's not so "lucky" to have an immortality code...:P

[Princess-Euphemia]

i like lelouch because he can be the bad guy and also the good guy and not many animes do that which i think makes him different

[bladeofdarkness]

topic shift
i didnt know if this should be here or on the generic thread but since it concerns lelouch then its here
do you think its possible for geass to have a genetic element to it
a person must be given a geass by a code possesor but do you think its possible to have a genetic effinity for geass powers
since over time and use the geass grows more powerful the change in the body of the user must also take place
is it possible for a geass users children to inheret some of those changes ?
if you take all the geass users in the show there is a distinct difference in how their geass works and effects people
mao, C.C and rolo's geass has a very small very specific effect on the person being geassed (rolo's is the most invasive and it almost kills him to use it)
bismark's power effects only HIS mind
on the other hand you have charles and marianne who both posses a geass that effects another persons mind completely and allows them to either rearange it to their will or to take over it entirely and use the body as a tool (while the target mind is sleeping)
charles's brotehr V.V was able to reach a level that allows him to take a code very early on (lelouch was powerful enough in a year, mao didnt make it after 9 years)
and the son of charles and marianne has the most powerful geass in the show allowing him to completely impose his will on others to the point that they will kill themselves and smile while doing it if he asks them to
its so overpowered that he takes over the entire WORLD within months of losing any morals he has
lelouch's geass also shares other things with his parents geass
all three are the types that require direct eye contact to use (the only non vi-britannia geass that has that is the one used by the kid in the geass cult, and even he didnt take over the mind but mearly the body)
is it possible that lelouch being a 2nd gen geass user gives him a more natural effinity and hence a much stronger geass then otehrs

[willyvereb]

There's no way to inherit that...because:
1.) The power of geass brings the user to solitude.
2.) Even if he/she have a kid there's no way in my opinion to inherit that. Even that thing that it cause physical changes in the body not sure...not to mention that it can alter the genes.

The power of Geass=the power of the user's greatest wish. And i think Charles's memory modifying stronger and more usefull ability than Lelouch's absolute command geass.

[bladeofdarkness]

forget useful
think in terms of power over a person's mind
and lelouch can erase memories too you know

and the whole "solitude" didnt seem to apply to charles and marianne

[Narona]

forget useful
think in terms of power over a person's mind
and lelouch can erase memories too you know

and the whole "solitude" didnt seem to apply to charles and marianne
I have the feeling that C.C. was mainly talking about two things:

- Because of the geass you tend to lost everything for many reason. Like becoming a bad and vain person because of holding a great power. In the end, you do mistakes and you start losing everything.

- Because ultimaly the geass is supposed to be the first step to that great power that Immortality is. But because of it, you lose everything because of the flow of time. C.C. doesn't think that anymore apparently, but she thought that in the past.

[azul120]

topic shift
i didnt know if this should be here or on the generic thread but since it concerns lelouch then its here
do you think its possible for geass to have a genetic element to it
a person must be given a geass by a code possesor but do you think its possible to have a genetic effinity for geass powers
since over time and use the geass grows more powerful the change in the body of the user must also take place
is it possible for a geass users children to inheret some of those changes ?
if you take all the geass users in the show there is a distinct difference in how their geass works and effects people
mao, C.C and rolo's geass has a very small very specific effect on the person being geassed (rolo's is the most invasive and it almost kills him to use it)
bismark's power effects only HIS mind
on the other hand you have charles and marianne who both posses a geass that effects another persons mind completely and allows them to either rearange it to their will or to take over it entirely and use the body as a tool (while the target mind is sleeping)
charles's brotehr V.V was able to reach a level that allows him to take a code very early on (lelouch was powerful enough in a year, mao didnt make it after 9 years)
and the son of charles and marianne has the most powerful geass in the show allowing him to completely impose his will on others to the point that they will kill themselves and smile while doing it if he asks them to
its so overpowered that he takes over the entire WORLD within months of losing any morals he has
lelouch's geass also shares other things with his parents geass
all three are the types that require direct eye contact to use (the only non vi-britannia geass that has that is the one used by the kid in the geass cult, and even he didnt take over the mind but mearly the body)
is it possible that lelouch being a 2nd gen geass user gives him a more natural effinity and hence a much stronger geass then otehrs

I'd say it's more a matter of writing than Lelouch's morals.

[bladeofdarkness]

he takes over the entire britannian empire in a matter of days
all becouse he doesnt mind massive brainwashing of the army and royal court to be his puppets
thats a matter of morals rather then writing

[azul120]

It was with his method of becoming the focus of all the world's evil and hatred, so that with his demise, they could move beyond it.

[bladeofdarkness]

and that has WHAT to do with it
his actions are still completely immoral
well intentioned, but immoral nonetheless

and that wasnt the point i was trying to make at all
his geass is much stronger then most
and both his parents had geass too
could this mean that he has stronger effinity for it

[morbosfist]

"Stronger" is not the proper word for it. Lelouch's Geass, if anything, is far more restrictive. Rather, it is the most versatile in the options it gives it user.

[Nobodyman9]

"Stronger" is not the proper word for it. Lelouch's Geass, if anything, is far more restrictive. Rather, it is the most versatile in the options it gives it user.
Funny, I always thought Lelouch's Geass was very overpowered, compared to the others anyway. I mean, the ability to have a person do anything you want them to? All you need to do is say "obey all my commands" and then you're set.

Mao's and Rolo's are pretty up there too. Mao's ability to read people's minds was a real obstacle for Lelouch and he proved to be a formidable opponent. Rolo's "time freeze" was pretty useful too, though it loses points for stopping his heart. Still, in terms of applicability and variability, I think Lelouch's wins out in usefulness.

And Charles' and Marianne's Geass's were a joke. They weren't Geass's so much as they were plot devices, only useful when the situation demanded it. Oh, and Bismarck's Geass; dumbest thing I've ever heard.

[incorrupts]

Funny, I always thought Lelouch's Geass was very overpowered, compared to the others anyway. I mean, the ability to have a person do anything you want them to? All you need to do is say "obey all my commands" and then you're set.


And that was his Geass-command pretty much in everyone, in the ending episodes, in order to accomplish ZR.
Lelouch held a "semi-moral" ground with Geass, if i can call it like this, giving only one order at a time that would not tie the person more into the consequences. It goes back to what he said Kallen in R2-2, "the heart belongs to you". That applied to a lot of people back then, he did not want, nor needed to make everyone his puppet at that point.

But yes, when ZR kicks in, he throws away this "semi-morality" to gain the results.

[Nobodyman9]

And that was his Geass-command pretty much in everyone, in the ending episodes, in order to accomplish ZR.
Lelouch held a "semi-moral" ground with Geass, if i can call it like this, giving only one order at a time that would not tie the person more into the consequences. It goes back to what he said Kallen in R2-2, "the heart belongs to you". That applied to a lot of people back then, he did not want, nor needed to make everyone his puppet at that point.

But yes, when ZR kicks in, he throws away this "semi-morality" to gain the results.
It's funny, it was around the time before that episode premiered (20? 21?) that I was thinking to myself "why doesn't Lelouch just tell people 'obey all my orders' instead of these one-time gigs" and no sooner does he start doing it in the final episodes.

But you are right that, at the time, it wasn't practical or ethical for Lelouch to do it (but he could still force them to commit suicide no problem XD), I was just using that as an example to demonstrate it's capabilities.

[Narona]

But you are right that, at the time, it wasn't practical or ethical for Lelouch to do it (but he could still force them to commit suicide no problem XD), I was just using that as an examplet to demonstrate it's capabilities.
Not in mass, but he did do it to a certain numbers of persons. Like the policeman in ep4 (when he did free ougi and the BK).

Different levels of moral.

[bladeofdarkness]

there is a difference in saying that someone would do a specific task (even if it kills them) to telling someone that from now on they will be your pawns from the rest of their lives and using them as cannon fodder
at least in my book

and while on the subject
i watched the new watchmen movie last night
and from the looks of things lelouch had read the comics :heh:

[Bionicman]

and while on the subject
i watched the new watchmen movie last night
and from the looks of things lelouch had read the comics :heh:Indeed. Over the past few days, I was thinking about making a post on how Zero Requiem resembles Ozymandias' plan to bring peace.I guess I'd better hurry up. ;)

[azul120]

At the very least, Lelouch's immoral actions were means to an end, rather an end themselves.

[bladeofdarkness]

and UN-NEEDED end
he didnt NEED to do all those things
he could have brought peace to the world by having britannia join the UFN for real and just be a good emperor for the rest of his life and show people that its much better to have peace then war
stopping shnizel and the damocle would have been (by default) much easier to achive if he WASNT fighting the OOBK and shnizel AT THE SAME TIME (his action in ep22 insured he would be fighting the OOBK before he ever started to move against shnizel)
and if he wanted a hate figure that the world can lay the blame on - his father fits right in
he chose ZERO-R not becouse it was needed but becouse HE wanted to do it

the ends justify the means only when the ends are in themselves justified
you cant say "i did what i had to do" if you didnt actually HAD to do it

and again that wasnt the point

[azul120]

I understand what the point was, and I was arguing against it. Though it's important to state that it was within the intent of the writers to make it as grandiose as possible, rather than sensical.

[yezhanquan]

That old saying by Lord Acton rings true:"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." What distinguishes Lelouch is the fact that he is aware of it, and in the end chooses to relinquish it, by killing himself, no less. He could very well choose to enslave the world, and I think that he knows that deep within him, that thought is calling out to him.

[yvj]

and UN-NEEDED end
he didnt NEED to do all those things
he could have brought peace to the world by having britannia join the UFN for real and just be a good emperor for the rest of his life and show people that its much better to have peace then war
stopping shnizel and the damocle would have been (by default) much easier to achive if he WASNT fighting the OOBK and shnizel AT THE SAME TIME (his action in ep22 insured he would be fighting the OOBK before he ever started to move against shnizel)
and if he wanted a hate figure that the world can lay the blame on - his father fits right in
he chose ZERO-R not becouse it was needed but becouse HE wanted to do it

the ends justify the means only when the ends are in themselves justified
you cant say "i did what i had to do" if you didnt actually HAD to do it

and again that wasnt the point

I'm with you Blade. It's been hard for me to see the complete justification for ZR's end lately.

[yezhanquan]

I'm with you Blade. It's been hard for me to see the complete justification for ZR's end lately.

He's doing it more for himself, I guess. See my previous post on power. The guy really wants to go out with a bang.

[azul120]

He did ZR to focus the world's hatred onto himself and take both all of it, along with himself, out of existence. If any of it doesn't make sense, it's the writing.

Here's another thing though, people are creatures of habit. They don't seek change outside of times of crisis (see: the past several years leading up to the election of Obama in a general sense). Hardly anyone in Britannia thought much about what Charles was doing because things were going just fine for them. Not to mention that the Social Darwinist system saw to it that discrimination against "numbers" was perfectly acceptable. That's why Lelouch chose to be an equal opportunity offender. The only question that remains is of whether or not he took it too far, but of course, any issues should be mainly taken up with the writing.

[yezhanquan]

As for the Britannian system, are the Japanese the only "Numbers" in the Empire? If they are, then it's an issue of numbers. There are that many more Britannians than Japanese.

[azul120]

As for the Britannian system, are the Japanese the only "Numbers" in the Empire? If they are, then it's an issue of numbers. There are that many more Britannians than Japanese.

No. "Numbers" refers to people living in a nation occupied by Britannia, which is then stripped of its name and national identity and is renamed as a numbered Area. Japan, in the series' prologue, was renamed Area 11, and its citizens Elevens, when it was occupied. Another example would be the beginning of episode 5 of season 1, when Cornelia and her forces occupied Saudi Arabia, which was then redubbed Area 18.

[morbosfist]

As for the Britannian system, are the Japanese the only "Numbers" in the Empire? If they are, then it's an issue of numbers. There are that many more Britannians than Japanese.All non-Britannians are numbers, which at the start of the series (or rather a few episodes in) is eighteen colonies. That's a lot of people.

[azul120]

All non-Britannians are numbers, which at the start of the series (or rather a few episodes in) is eighteen colonies. That's a lot of people.

I feel so embarassed for not being able to put it so succinctly.

[yezhanquan]

All non-Britannians are numbers, which at the start of the series (or rather a few episodes in) is eighteen colonies. That's a lot of people.

Ok, so are ALL of the Numbers discriminated against? Or is Japan singled out because of her sakuradite deposits?

[azul120]

It's safe to say that all Numbers are looked down on. The only ones the show ever focuses on are the Japanese, for storyline purposes.

[yezhanquan]

Well, from what I see, it's the classic "divide and conquer" strategy.

[azul120]

Well, from what I see, it's the classic "divide and conquer" strategy.

With the power Britannia has, there's no need for "divide and conquer".

Focusing on other occupied colonies would pad out a series that already had a ton to focus on, and little sense of where to direct that focus at times.

[yezhanquan]

Even the mightiest of empires cannot rule by fear alone. Within Japan (Area 11), there is a system to pit those who support the new order against those who want the old. The "honourary Britannian" system is one such case.

[azul120]

Even the mightiest of empires cannot rule by fear alone. Within Japan (Area 11), there is a system to pit those who support the new order against those who want the old. The "honourary Britannian" system is one such case.

I wasn't talking about that. But that still adds fuel to the argument that Britannia under Charles used propaganda.

[Charred Knight]

Funny, I always thought Lelouch's Geass was very overpowered, compared to the others anyway. I mean, the ability to have a person do anything you want them to? All you need to do is say "obey all my commands" and then you're set.

Mao's and Rolo's are pretty up there too. Mao's ability to read people's minds was a real obstacle for Lelouch and he proved to be a formidable opponent. Rolo's "time freeze" was pretty useful too, though it loses points for stopping his heart. Still, in terms of applicability and variability, I think Lelouch's wins out in usefulness.

And Charles' and Marianne's Geass's were a joke. They weren't Geass's so much as they were plot devices, only useful when the situation demanded it. Oh, and Bismarck's Geass; dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Charles at least had some use since he used it on multiple people, Marianne's was just a lousy plot device.

[yezhanquan]

Lelouch did accurately point out that Mao uses his Geass as a crutch. Or even better, the You Know I Know You know trope. Besides, Lelouch is an expert at predicting people's actions. His faceoff before geassing Schneizel was a good example.

Also, Lelouch do know the full implications of the powers of his Geass. He just chooses not to wield. If he had used it to its full power, he's really not much better than Sauron himself.

[azul120]

Didn't Charles' Geass make him impervious to that of Lelouch?

[morbosfist]

Didn't Charles' Geass make him impervious to that of Lelouch?Nothing of the sort. He was immortal by the time Lelouch tried it, and if anything Lelouch would have the advantage of a Geass which takes effect much quicker.

[azul120]

Nothing of the sort. He was immortal by the time Lelouch tried it, and if anything Lelouch would have the advantage of a Geass which takes effect much quicker.

So basically Lelouch missed his chance by a hair, huh?

[morbosfist]

So basically Lelouch missed his chance by a hair, huh?Well, not really, the Emperor initiated their conversation, so he never really had the chance to begin with. Suzaku had him pinned the other time.

[azul120]

Well, not really, the Emperor initiated their conversation, so he never really had the chance to begin with.

Even though Lelouch flanked him with the mirror cluster?

Suzaku had him pinned the other time.

Yeah. I was so angry at Suzaku for that.

[morbosfist]

Even though Lelouch flanked him with the mirror cluster?The Emperor was already immortal at the time. The mirror cluster was doomed from the start. Charlie simply has a sense of humor and played along.

[azul120]

The Emperor was already immortal at the time. The mirror cluster was doomed from the start. Charlie simply has a sense of humor and played along.

I was referring to the possible scenario that Charles had not taken V. V.'s immortality code, which was what happened right before Lelouch had been sucked into the Sword of Akasha.

[morbosfist]

I was referring to the possible scenario that Charles had not taken V. V.'s immortality code, which was what happened right before Lelouch had been sucked into the Sword of Akasha.Ah, then in that case it probably would have worked. Of course, Charles probably wouldn't be so foolish as to even risk it if he weren't immune.

[azul120]

Ah, then in that case it probably would have worked. Of course, Charles probably wouldn't be so foolish as to even risk it if he weren't immune.

Would Charles keep himself out of eye contact?

And it's still a little annoying that had Suzaku not restrained Lelouch, Lelouch could have Geassed Charles. But of course Suzaku saw Lelouch as the one who needed to be neutralized instead.

[SonOfHeaven]

This thread been dead for awhile.

Been going to other websites recently. Many people believe Lelouch is alive. Even though, we know Lelouch is gone given the facts/sources/staff comments(He died on screen and there's no evidence he received any code. This is gasping at straws). I was wondering that if Lelouch was alive, how would the members here take it. Given the state Nunnally, Kallen and Suzaku are in right now?

[morbosfist]

I was wondering that if Lelouch was alive, how would the members here take it. Given the state Nunnally, Kallen and Suzaku are in right now?Hypothetically speaking, as long as it seriously bothered him that he couldn't speak to any of them, and he had a decent excuse for being alive, then I'd find it acceptable.

[SonOfHeaven]

Hypothetically speaking, as long as it seriously bothered him that he couldn't speak to any of them, and he had a decent excuse for being alive, then I'd find it acceptable.

Yeah, I can see that. I wonder that type of accuse it would be though.

[Nobodyman9]

Well, they'd have to have a pretty damn good explanation for Lelouch being alive, and if they did...well, heck, why not. I'm assuming this would occur if they made a sequel series involving Lelouch, but like I said they'd have to have a good explanation. I really don't see it happening though.

Nunnally and Kallen, I'm sure, would be thrilled about him being alive. Suzaku...hmm, maybe not so much, especially since Lelouch stiffed him with the role of Zero and had him "kill" him.

[morbosfist]

Yeah, I can see that. I wonder that type of accuse it would be though.Well, the most generic excuse would be latent Code activation taken from his father during the choke. One could say it laid dormant, thus not hampering his Geass, until he died, then kicked in shortly after that stabbing. We aren't really given a timeline, after all, and a stab would would probably take a fair bit longer to heal.

[SonOfHeaven]

Well, the most generic excuse would be latent Code activation taken from his father during the choke. One could say it laid dormant, thus not hampering his Geass, until he died, then kicked in shortly after that stabbing. We aren't really given a timeline, after all, and a stab would would probably take a fair bit longer to heal.

The thing is we don't know the specifics on how does one gives an code to another person or take it away once their geass evolves. Like how long does the transfer take for example. Charles was going fulfill C.C wish to die by doing an tango move ;). Looked like it was going to take some time. Whereas with Lelouch and Charles, it was only a brief moment.

[morbosfist]

The thing is we don't know the specifics on how does one gives an code to another person or take it away once their geass evolves. Like how long does the transfer take for example. Charles was going fulfill C.C wish to die by doing an tango move ;). Looked like it was going to take some time. Whereas with Lelouch and Charles, it was only a brief moment.This is all hypothetical, of course. I don't buy into him living any which way. I'm just proposing the most likely scenario. C.C. got the Code from that nun, who for some reason felt the need to rough C.C. up something fierce. Charles got the Code from V.V., then apparently felt the need to play along and shoot himself in the heart for the lulz (and who says he doesn't have a sense of humor). If there's one constant with the Code, it's that its bearers seem to have a habit of dying after first receiving it.

[azul120]

I'm sure that if Lelouch were to not be dead, he could alternate as Zero. For all intents and purposes, he'd be just as dead to the world as Suzaku.

[James Lame]

I'm sure that if Lelouch were to not be dead, he could alternate as Zero. For all intents and purposes, he'd be just as dead to the world as Suzaku.
You mean he could switch places with Suzaku or just become Zero 2... I don't really understand what you mean. :confused:

Anyway, the whole thing with Lulu being alive seems far fetched to me. They way I see him is that he's a man of his words, so he'd most likely go through with whatever plan no matter the cost.
But let's say he did bamboozle the whole world into believing he died (even Suzaku, C.C etc.), what then? If that's the case, then i would have a hard time believing that he would ever try to make contact with any of those who knew him. It would just be too great of a risk.

[bladeofdarkness]

kallen states that part of the reason ZERO-R worked so well is becouse it much easier to hate someone with a name and a face (pretty much) then it is to hate a concept
after all he did lelouch would be the "face of hate"
where the hell would he go where no one recognizes him ?
wasnt the whole point of it to make every man woman and child on earth know and hate him ?

[James Lame]

kallen states that part of the reason ZERO-R worked so well is becouse it much easier to hate someone with a name and a face (pretty much) then it is to hate a concept
after all he did lelouch would be the "face of hate"
where the hell would he go where no one recognizes him ?
wasnt the whole point of it to make every man woman and child on earth know and hate him ?
Hmmm... that is true. I guess he could live as a Hermit. :rolleyes:

[bladeofdarkness]

for how long
can you imagine someone IRL who wouldnt recognize hitler if he saw him today (more then 60 years after)
and lelouch made himself up to be even worse
more then just a hermit, he would have to live in complete solitude from any other human being (with the possible exception of C.C) for who knows how long

not to mention that bamboozling (love that word :D) his way out of it would have made him a total and complete ass-hole on EVERY LEVEL

[incorrupts]

for how long
can you imagine someone IRL who wouldnt recognize hitler if he saw him today (more then 60 years after)
and lelouch made himself up to be even worse
more then just a hermit, he would have to live in complete solitude from any other human being (with the possible exception of C.C) for who knows how long

not to mention that bamboozling (love that word :D) his way out of it would have made him a total and complete ass-hole on EVERY LEVEL

Come on, if someone wants to hide, he can hide.

The point though, is, that Lelouch is dead. Pretty much period. Staff's words.
Now, if we want to speculate, how Lelouch could be alive something that would make the whole point of ZR {and not only}-OOC and stuff, feel free to go wild against staff's wills. 8D

[Nogitsune]

*shrugs*
If Lelouch's death hadn't been confirmed, he could very well be alive through a code that got activated when he was stabbed.
It would only be OOC for him if he'd seen it coming, and it would only "ruin" Zero Requiem for the viewers if his survival had been confirmed instead.
They could just have left the ending open to interpretation. But they didn't, so either it's a conspiracy, or they simply never intend the ending to be anything but clear. The latter, of course, is far more likely - but in my opinion, it's also the only thing that was rather badly done in episode 25.
So... no point in arguing over this again and again and trying to prove the other side wrong. Not when the staff already took a stance on the matter, and when that's really the only thing that forces the "Lelouch is alive" theory into the world of fanfiction.

[James Lame]

for how long
can you imagine someone IRL who wouldnt recognize hitler if he saw him today (more then 60 years after)
and lelouch made himself up to be even worse
more then just a hermit, he would have to live in complete solitude from any other human being (with the possible exception of C.C) for who knows how long

not to mention that bamboozling (love that word :D) his way out of it would have made him a total and complete ass-hole on EVERY LEVEL
Tbh i was joking with the whole hermit thing. :p
Besides, i totally agree with you.

not to mention that bamboozling (love that word :D)
Yeah, it's great isn't it? :D

And just to clarify, I'm not really talking about if Lulu is dead or alive, It's already stated that he is not. I was just speculating on IF he was...
Here's the quote:

I was wondering that if Lelouch was alive, how would the members here take it. Given the state Nunnally, Kallen and Suzaku are in right now?

[azul120]

There's one important thing though... Lelouch still had his Geass, so AFAIK there's no way he could have had the Code.

[Nogitsune]

There's one important thing though... Lelouch still had his Geass, so AFAIK there's no way he could have had the Code.

Hm... theres the "he got the Geass from a different immortal than the one he killed, thus he kept it" and the "he had to die before it activated" theory going on, amongst other things.

[James Lame]

There's one important thing though... Lelouch still had his Geass, so AFAIK there's no way he could have had the Code.
Maybe you still have it until you die? As morbosfist said, those who received the Code have a habit of dieing. So maybe it wont activate until your first death? That's my theory on it anyway.

Edit: Bah, Nogitsune beats me to it and with two theory's too boot.

[Nobodyman9]

for how long
can you imagine someone IRL who wouldnt recognize hitler if he saw him today (more then 60 years after)
and lelouch made himself up to be even worse
more then just a hermit, he would have to live in complete solitude from any other human being (with the possible exception of C.C) for who knows how long

not to mention that bamboozling (love that word :D) his way out of it would have made him a total and complete ass-hole on EVERY LEVEL
Actually, now that I think about it, him living a life of solitude would actually be a pretty fitting punishment. His dream was to be able to live with Nunnally and his loved ones in a peaceful world, but instead he would would have to live the rest of his days in solitude. Hmm...

[azul120]

But wouldn't he still have to relinquish his Geass in order to obtain the Code?

I agree with Nobodyman9 that him living alone in exile might be harsher than him dying, and quite possibly being reunited with his fellow deceased loved ones. Suzaku may be stuck with the role of Zero, but it's apparently one he can live with, since he's able to protect other people like he wanted to, plus he gets to be with Nunnally.

[Levy]

Actually, now that I think about it, him living a life of solitude would actually be a pretty fitting punishment. His dream was to be able to live with Nunnally and his loved ones in a peaceful world, but instead he would would have to live the rest of his days in solitude. Hmm...

yeah, I do agree. hi guys I'm back :DD! <3 Living would have been quite painfull for him as well, since he'd have to stay in this world like a ghost and away from the people he loved the most..

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

I don't see the need for Lulu to live a life of solitude. First, he's got CC, so he is not alone. Second, Lelouch Britannia is dead. Everyone saw the stab on live TV.

So what if his face is recognized? There are plenty of people who look like Saddam Hussein, but how many people are going to think he is still alive after his botched decapitated-hanging was shown?

Lulu never wanted to be a king to begin with. And as long as he doesn't act like a king, no one will recognize him. This is because his public face is that of an Emperor.

Lulu Britannia is dead. And as a magician, Lulu can keep the illusion going for as long as he wants.

[darthfury78]

I forgot about that speech, it's been a while since I saw the first season. I still say that Charles, at that point, must have seemed like an angel compared to Lelouch from Suzaku's point of view.

I think that Charles treated Lelouch in a manner in which he did when he sent him and Nunnally to Japan was to protect them from V.V.'s interest. This way, he could find out if V.V. was lying to him or not regarding Marianne's murder. However, the uncaring attitude that Charles displayed to Lelouch gave him the impression that his father had something to do with his mother's death. This tramatic event made Lelouch emotions very volatile. Thus, the Demon King was born.:bash:

This is the side of Lelouch who hated Britannia and all that it stood for. And it was this side of Lelouch who wanted to destroy everything that his father stood for, unbeknownst to Charles. This also included his half-siblings, which included those who cared about Marianne. What puzzled me was that fact that Charles didn't geass Lelouch into forgeting about the murder of his mother. He did geass Nunnally to think that she was blind.

By the time when the truth came out it was too late for Charles to reconcile with Lelouch. His son had already decided that his father x mother should be punished for abanding him, meaning that they used him as bait to get to C.C. all along. In his mind, Lelouch felt that Charles x Marianne didn't care about him at all. To them, Lelouch was nothing more than a puppet who was expendable. This could explain why he had only a few friends around him. In addition, if he ever came to having the power that he needed to destroy Britannia, he would use it to rid the world of its tyranny and then himself.

With Lelouch's death, Suzaku now bears the burden of the new world and all of it problems on his shoulders. For Nina, Cornelia, and Suzaku, Lelouch's death was poetic justice for the death of Euphemia. And C.C. is left with a world that doesn't fear her anymore because they have forgotten that she was giver of the geass. Until it is said otherwise, I'll assume that Lelouch is dead. May he rest in peace.

[azul120]

Suzaku no longer wanted Lelouch to die though. He and Lelouch were best friends again by the time skip prior to Lelouch taking over the throne. (Suzaku might have come to understand what happened anyways.) As for Cornelia and to a lesser extent in a sense Nina, poetic justice would be ironic, since they had a lot of blood on their hands they never had to answer for.

And Lelouch also killed Charles and Marianne because he rejected their idea of existence, or lack thereof.

[Nogitsune]

Suzaku no longer wanted Lelouch to die though. He and Lelouch were best friends again by the time skip prior to Lelouch taking over the throne. (Suzaku might have come to understand what happened anyways.) As for Cornelia and to a lesser extent in a sense Nina, poetic justice would be ironic, since they had a lot of blood on their hands they never had to answer for.

*signs that*
Yeah.
I agree with quite some of the things you wrote, darthfury, but not with the "poetic justice" bit.
It sounds just too... poetic. xD
At some level, I'm sure Suzaku still felt it was his duty to avenge Euphemia, but that's probably the one thing that made him able to actually go through with Zero Requiem. That and him being a masochist... oh, and the world peace thing, and the fact that it was Lelouch's own wish to die.
Cornelia... uhm, well, I don't think she's one for poetic justice. Oh yes, she would have had a lot of fun killing Zero right after her sister died, but after a year and with all that happened, she seemed to be just glad to be rid of the Demon King. Either way, she's not really a justice person.
And Nina... well, she said she couldn't forgive Lelouch, but I think "poetic justice" would be pushing it. As azul said, she's not a saint herself, and she and Lelouch seemed to have developed a certain respect for each other. I doubt it was about justice for her.
Satisfaction, maybe... but even that would be ruined by the circumstances.

[azul120]

True. Though again, I'm sure Suzaku no longer wished for justice for what happened to Euphemia, given that he and Lelouch were best friends again. And of course, that he may have realized the circumstances behind the Geassing, and why Lelouch had to kill Euphie.

[darthfury78]

I wondered whoever taught Lelouch how to cook and clean so well around the clubhouse? Was it Milly or Sayoko? You decide. :D

[Nogitsune]

True. Though again, I'm sure Suzaku no longer wished for justice for what happened to Euphemia, given that he and Lelouch were best friends again. And of course, that he may have realized the circumstances behind the Geassing, and why Lelouch had to kill Euphie.

Agreed.
Even though I doubt Lelouch would have told him... still, Suzaku definitely guessed that something was up.

I wondered whoever taught Lelouch how to cook and clean so well around the clubhouse? Was it Milly or Sayoko? You decide. :D

Well, since Lelouch had to take care of Nunally from an early age and refused to take the things they were given to eat...
I'd say he's self-taught. And I want to hug him. xD

[Zira]

Lelouch is one heck of a guy. I envy his intelligence (even though it is just anime).

[Zira]

I hope I am not getting too off topic by saying this but has anyone else really wondered who would win in a chess game between Lelouch and Light Yagami?

[Worriors1]

I hope I am not getting too off topic by saying this but has anyone else really wondered who would win in a chess game between Lelouch and Light Yagami?

Depends on which one decided to cheat first?
It could draw, and I bet it would.

[Nobodyman9]

I hope I am not getting too off topic by saying this but has anyone else really wondered who would win in a chess game between Lelouch and Light Yagami?
Granted, we never did see Light playing chess and thus don't know how good he is. Being smart and being good at chess are not the same thing. Of course, since he does have a strategic mind one could argue that he would be (very) good at it.

However, what I think Light would do is he would write Lelouch's name in the Deathnote before the match began and have Lelouch play the worst game of chess ever, afterwhich he would die miserably.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Granted, we never did see Light playing chess and thus don't know how good he is. Being smart and being good at chess are not the same thing. Of course, since he does have a strategic mind one could argue that he would be (very) good at it.

However, what I think Light would do is he would write Lelouch's name in the Deathnote before the match began and have Lelouch play the worst game of chess ever, afterwhich he would die miserably.

Actually, I doubt Light would win a chess game via Deathnote. He has a VERY strong sense of pride. The very act of cheating to win a game is in itself an admission of inferiority; that Light somehow believe he isn't good enough to win fair and square.

Light would not cheat to win, because anything less than an honest game would hurt his pride. While as long as nothing important is on the line, Lulu wouldn't cheat either. Lulu doesn't mind losing a chess game or two; it's just games. Lulu reserve using his powers for more important things.

Now, if the chess game is something more important than usual; say, the winner takes the loser's powers, then things will go CRAZY. Most of the action would probably take place before the game day, as each side tried to use their powers on each other while protecting themselves.

[Nobodyman9]

Actually, I doubt Light would win a chess game via Deathnote. He has a VERY strong sense of pride. The very act of cheating to win a game is in itself an admission of inferiority; that Light somehow believe he isn't good enough to win fair and square.

Light would not cheat to win, because anything less than an honest game would hurt his pride. While as long as nothing important is on the line, Lulu wouldn't cheat either. Lulu doesn't mind losing a chess game or two; it's just games. Lulu reserve using his powers for more important things.

Now, if the chess game is something more important than usual; say, the winner takes the loser's powers, then things will go CRAZY. Most of the action would probably take place before the game day, as each side tried to use their powers on each other while protecting themselves.
Yeah, I'll agree with that. If it was a friendly chess game I'm sure it would just be a "may the best man win" kind of thing. However, if the fate of the world or great personal loss comes into play, then the gloves are off.

But of course that is the point. While it would be nice to see them play a chess game, what we really want to see is them going at it at full blast with lives on the line, each using their stategy and wits.

[darthfury78]

Well, since Lelouch had to take care of Nunally from an early age and refused to take the things they were given to eat...
I'd say he's self-taught. And I want to hug him. xD

Nah! :D

I stand by the fact that Sayoko and Milly taught Lelouch how to cook. I don't think that he would have done it entirely alone for Nunnally's sake. Since Milly went through all the trouble for arranging for them to live at the clubhouse, it was Lelouch's way of paying his debt to Milly by agreeing to be her personal all in one Vice-President. :heh:

And Milly enjoyed being Lelouch's Landlord, whether he wanted to admit to it or not. Otherwise, Lelouch would have left Ashford Academy a long time ago. :eyebrow:

This is a situation that Rivalz would love to be in: Milly's Vice-President and Husband.:D

[Nogitsune]

Nah! :D

I stand by the fact that Sayoko and Milly taught Lelouch how to cook. I don't think that he would have done it entirely alone for Nunnally's sake. Since Milly went through all the trouble for arranging for them to live at the clubhouse, it was Lelouch's way of paying his debt to Milly by agreeing to be her personal all in one Vice-President. :heh:

lol. xD
Well, maybe Milly helped Lelouch refining his skills, but since - according to the respective Sound Drama - he didn't want to accept any food given to him and Nunally by others when they came to Japan as children, I'd say he had to learn to cook very early. He even did the laundry himself. *-*
I think it's incredibly cute. xD

And Milly enjoyed being Lelouch's Landlord, whether he wanted to admit to it or not. Otherwise, Lelouch would have left Ashford Academy a long time ago. :eyebrow:

This is a situation that Rivalz would love to be in: Milly's Vice-President and Husband.:D

Yeah, when it comes to Lelouch and Milly, he is totally uke. xD
She could have joined the "let's stalk and torture cute little Lelouch club". I'm sure C.C. and Clovis would have welcomed her with open arms. xD
Well, maybe not Clovis, seeing how he would be totally uke there, too...
The girls could have made him clean the house and/or hide in a corner all day. xD

[Levy]

ROFL, Lelouch is uke with everyone but Suzaku!=P

Nice thoughts about Milly turning Lelouch in the perfect housewife, darth, I can so see it happening! =)
*goes to lunch picturing Milly and Lelouch singin' My Fair Lady*


Edit: I place my bet on Lulu, since IMO, he's way smarter than Light. And I want him to win because I like him way better. Just like this! =P

[darthfury78]

lol. xD
Well, maybe Milly helped Lelouch refining his skills, but since - according to the respective Sound Drama - he didn't want to accept any food given to him and Nunally by others when they came to Japan as children, I'd say he had to learn to cook very early. He even did the laundry himself. *-*
I think it's incredibly cute. xD

Yeah, when it comes to Lelouch and Milly, he is totally uke. xD
She could have joined the "let's stalk and torture cute little Lelouch club". I'm sure C.C. and Clovis would have welcomed her with open arms. xD
Well, maybe not Clovis, seeing how he would be totally uke there, too...
The girls could have made him clean the house and/or hide in a corner all day. xD

What is uke supposed to mean?:confused:

I believe that the reason why Lelouch would not accept food from anyone was because he believed that someone would put poison into it.:heh:

When he and Nunnally went to the Ashfords, Lelouch didn't trust them at all. In fact, Lelouch began to hate his time with them because he came to realized that the Ashford would use them as pawns into order for their Nobility to be restored. And this was three years before Milly Ashford came to Japan/Area 11. When they first met, he was 13 while she was 14. I am sure that Milly had already madeup her mind about Lelouch the moment she met him. I would loved to have seen this moment as a Picture Drama instead of a Sound Drama.

I wondered if things would have been different if C.C. decided to take a 10 year old Lelouch under her care instead of Mao? How would the events unfold?:D

[Nogitsune]

ROFL, Lelouch is uke with everyone but Suzaku!=P

No, only with the girls. xD
I can attest that he's totally seme with Clovis. xD

Edit: I place my bet on Lulu, since IMO, he's way smarter than Light. And I want him to win because I like him way better. Just like this! =P

Agreed. xD


What is uke supposed to mean?:confused:

Uhm... well... xD
Let's say you have a yaoi fanfic. And there are two guys. And a bed. And one is top. And the other is bottom.
Then the one on top is seme, and the one on bottom is uke. xD

I believe that the reason why Lelouch would not accept food from anyone was because he believed that someone would put poison into it.:heh:

Nah, that wouldn't make sense. No one would gain anything from killing him, except maybe people who are related to him.
Lelouch said himself that it's because he is "alive", living by his own strength... it's sad how his father's words cut so deeply that day.
Again, I want to hug him. xD

When he and Nunnally went to the Ashfords, Lelouch didn't trust them at all. In fact, Lelouch began to hate his time with them because he came to realized that the Ashford would use them as pawns into order for their Nobility to be restored. And this was three years before Milly Ashford came to Japan/Area 11. When they first met, he was 13 while she was 14. I am sure that Milly had already madeup her mind about Lelouch the moment she met him. I would loved to have seen this moment as a Picture Drama instead of a Sound Drama.

Yeah, Lelouch thinks everyone is out to use him and his sister as political tools... and he's right more often than not.
A PD to that would definitely have been cute. *-*
I wonder where Lelouch stayed before coming to the academy...

I wondered if things would have been different if C.C. decided to take a 10 year old Lelouch under her care instead of Mao? How would the events unfold?:D

She and Clovis would have married, and they'd also have adopted Suzaku, and then everyone would have lived happily ever after. xD
Errr... well, maybe not, but Clovis and C.C. would definitely have done a good job! xD

[incorrupts]

What is uke supposed to mean?:confused:


Stupid stereotypes. Pay no mind. 8D

[Nogitsune]

Stupid stereotypes. Pay no mind. 8D

But they are fun. xD

[incorrupts]

But they are fun. xD

But they are still stupid. 8D
Not to mention, disrespectful, the way that most of the times, are being used in the fandom. {See TRC for example, ah}
To each his own though, and enough OT-ness. Unless somehow, Suzaku is being involved with Lelouch's chara in a weird-nogi-way. |D;

[Nogitsune]

But they are still stupid. 8D
Not to mention, disrespectful, the way that most of the times, are being used in the fandom. {See TRC for example, ah}

I have no idea when it comes to TRC, but the stereotypes only annoy me when I encounter blushing, whining uke!Lelouch once again. xD

To each his own though, and enough OT-ness. Unless somehow, Suzaku is being involved with Lelouch's chara in a weird-nogi-way. |D;[/FONT][/B]

Well... Lelouch is uke when it comes to the girls, and totally seme when it comes to Suzaku, so it's not OT. xD
I mean... it describes his character very well! xD

[incorrupts]

I have no idea when it comes to TRC, but the stereotypes only annoy me when I encounter blushing, whining uke!Lelouch once again. xD

Good for you. Stay away. 8D

Well... Lelouch is uke when it comes to the girls, and totally seme when it comes to Suzaku, so it's not OT. xD
I mean... it describes his character very well! xD

Hmm, well, again, to each his own. I am stopping here, cause this might get...peculiar. 8)

[Nogitsune]

Good for you. Stay away. 8D

O_O
That bad? xD

Hmm, well, again, to each his own. I am stopping here, cause this might get...peculiar. 8)

Hey! You can't make me curious and then just... stop. xD

[yvj]

Uke....Seme?

I could have sworn Lelouch already explained his sexual preference

http://i27.tinypic.com/16iulnt.jpg

P.S. The last few posts have been epic Lulz

http://astradoggy.com/assets/images/db_images/db_catfight1.jpg


P. P. S Lelouch beats Light 7 times out of ten IMO. Lelouch at ZR showed his MAX brain powah! with stuff like

The Volcano Surprise
We've got .0000000000001 seconds to stop that Frejia
Fun with videotape and Schniezel

I don't Light has done anything near as impressive.

[snowdevil_crow]

Lol, Lelouch the pimp. XD

Mah, I think uke-Lelouch is hot... but at the same time it sort of makes more sense for him to be seme. I mean, I can see him being bottom or whatever, and maybe even willingly allowing someone like, say, Suzaku have control over him in bed (back when they were all buddy-buddy). And if we get into the SuzaLulu hatesex bits, I'd say Suzaku definitely tops him there. And CC would top him more often than not, too, I think.

However, with anyone else, I think he would prefer to be in control. And I think the other girls would let him --- Shirley and Kallen and Euphie (though I think Euphie would totally be the initiater... >_>), and such. ... maybe not Milly. And Suzaku would let him top often, I think, because Suzaku's a masochist. And of course Rolo would let him. And.

Wait, why are we even talking about this?

Also, Light vs Lelouch --- I think Light has more impressive Xanatos Roulettes (or whatever the term is), but I think Lelouch is better at battle strategy. Light was all about the mindgames and outwitting people. Lelouch does that too, sometimes, but the real reason he stands out is because of his skills at battle strategy.

[Kid Ying]

Also, Light vs Lelouch --- I think Light has more impressive Xanatos Roulettes (or whatever the term is), but I think Lelouch is better at battle strategy. Light was all about the mindgames and outwitting people. Lelouch does that too, sometimes, but the real reason he stands out is because of his skills at battle strategy.
Hey, don't forget that Light is on an almost olympic level in swimming, we all saw his habilities at the end of the series in that pool.

About the chess game, Lelouch wins. Flawless victory. Light never played chess in the series. We don't even know if he knows how to play. Even if he knows, i want Lelouch to win. :heh:

[Chaos Zangetsu]

I think if Light did know how to play Chess that they would be pretty equal in that they could probaly map out where each other would move for like 10 moves ahead so that Chess game would be pretty epic, I would want to see that, especially being a great chess player myself. I myself royally wasted everyone in middle school in Chess and I am girfted(says on my diagnosis too... should see what I got on the ACT in high school :D ) That being said, that's a reason why I love Death Note and Code Geass.

[snowdevil_crow]

I suck so badly at chess. And any game involving strategy. But I love Code Geass and Death Note nonetheless! XD

But yeah, we don't even know if Light knows how to play chess, so. Yeah. xD

[iBeast]

Hey, don't forget that Light is on an almost olympic level in swimming, we all saw his habilities at the end of the series in that pool.

About the chess game, Lelouch wins. Flawless victory. Light never played chess in the series. We don't even know if he knows how to play. Even if he knows, i want Lelouch to win. :heh:

Light doesn't swim. You mean the tennis game?

[morbosfist]

Light doesn't swim. You mean the tennis game?No, he means swimming. Google "Death Note swimming lessons" to get the meaning.

[Code Geass]

Uke....Seme?

I could have sworn Lelouch already explained his sexual preference

http://i27.tinypic.com/16iulnt.jpg

P.S. The last few posts have been epic Lulz

http://astradoggy.com/assets/images/db_images/db_catfight1.jpg


P. P. S Lelouch beats Light 7 times out of ten IMO. Lelouch at ZR showed his MAX brain powah! with stuff like

The Volcano Surprise
We've got .0000000000001 seconds to stop that Frejia
Fun with videotape and Schniezel

I don't Light has done anything near as impressive.

I have to agree. Lelouch is so much better and WAY more skilled than Light. :D

[snowdevil_crow]

Light's swimming lesson is the most epic thing ever.

But Lulu can FLYYYYYYYYY~

[Kid Ying]

I disagree, i think Light eating potatoes is even more epic. This and Mikami breaking the olympic record of jump just by writing names.

But Light swimming lessons still are incredible. UN DEUX TROIS.

[snowdevil_crow]

DON'T FORGET TO BREATHE *wheeze*

:D:D

The potato chips thing was pretty epic, too.

I only wish Light had been willing to crossdress, like Lelouch. I might have liked him more XD

[Nogitsune]

Since I feel that the novels' grasp on the characters - despite them not being canon, exactly - can be incredibly amazing, I decided to share some of the awesomeness I found in Stage 1. I thought it described Lelouch's reaction and feelings incredibly well, and Levy agreed that other people might enjoy this, as well, so... I'll just take what I quoted to my awesome soulmate and post it here.
About when Lelouch found his dead mother:


"I learned that death was not a beautiful thing. (...)
I loved her so much. She loved me so much.
But when I saw the corpse full of holes, I thought...

How dirty.

I vomited.
It wasn't because of the smell of blood, or intestines, but the ugliness of my own heart.
I vomited and vomited, and I took it out on everyone around me. Maybe because I was so violent, they made me take something and I was put to sleep.
When I woke up, my sister had closed her eyes and rejected the world, too.
I won't forgive him.
More than the people who did that to my mother, I couldn't forgive him. (...)

And then I started to think...
One day, I'll make you feel the pain I felt.
(...) As long as you geriatric life continues, suffer. Scream.
I don't care if it's right or wrong.
I decided that this is going to happen."

- Stage 1, "Shadow" (p. 89/90)


I think it's amazing, because Lelouch also states that he wanted to take everything away from his father, not simply kill him, and it shows his immense hatred that people often overlook in favour of his more noble goal of changing the world. It shows how hurt Lelouch was, how he has some serious issues, and how he's neither a devil nor a saint.
It's not "canon", but it fits my perception of Lelouch amazingly well, the throwing up part included, and I just had to post it here.
There's also something cute about mini Lelouch not wanting Suzaku as his knight because "a knight isn't a friend". It puts me into the worst fangirl mood.

[snowdevil_crow]

That is an awesome snippet. *_* Thanks for posting it, I think it's very IC for him, too.

[Charred Knight]

Uke....Seme?

I could have sworn Lelouch already explained his sexual preference

http://i27.tinypic.com/16iulnt.jpg

P.S. The last few posts have been epic Lulz

http://astradoggy.com/assets/images/db_images/db_catfight1.jpg


P. P. S Lelouch beats Light 7 times out of ten IMO. Lelouch at ZR showed his MAX brain powah! with stuff like

The Volcano Surprise
We've got .0000000000001 seconds to stop that Frejia
Fun with videotape and Schniezel

I don't Light has done anything near as impressive.

What the hell are you talking about?

Zero Requiem is the type of thing only a complete imbecile would do.

I mean to make himself look more evil than Charles he would have to kill people in the numbers that the Axis did in World War II.

Lelouch becomes a benevolent ruler, fostering change, and peace
or
Lelouch kills millions in the hopes that peace will come

Yeah

[Orga777]

What the hell are you talking about?

Zero Requiem is the type of thing only a complete imbecile would do.

I mean to make himself look more evil than Charles he would have to kill people in the numbers that the Axis did in World War II.

Lelouch becomes a benevolent ruler, fostering change, and peace
or
Lelouch kills millions in the hopes that peace will come

Yeah

Why is it stupid? It has worked in many medias of fiction before. Ever read "Watchmen"? Ozymandias did the same thing (and he was just as brutal as Lelouch... XD), then you have Treize Khushrenada doing something similar in Gundam Wing. Heck there are a bunch of anime where something similar was used.

You don't have to agree with the methods, because I sure as hell don't, but it doesn't make it any less effective, and it sure doesn't make it stupid since it has been used many a time before.

[Betteroffer]

Why is it stupid? It has worked in many medias of fiction before. Ever read "Watchmen"? Ozymandias did the same thing (and he was just as brutal as Lelouch... XD), then you have Treize Khushrenada doing something similar in Gundam Wing. Heck there are a bunch of anime where something similar was used.

You don't have to agree with the methods, because I sure as hell don't, but it doesn't make it any less effective, and it sure doesn't make it stupid since it has been used many a time before.

How many other works of fiction employ an idea does not make an idea viable. "If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." (forgive me, but I've forgotten who said this).

The fact is that the turn-myself-into-the-absolute-hate-target-and-end-all-hate-forever-with-my-death idea is not realistic. It is an awesome idea and speaks to the nobility and determination of a character in that they are willing to destroy their own image (and usually life as well) in favor of bettering the world, but it would not realistically create the sort of situation that is shown at the end of the series.

The idea that one man/boy's death can erase decades, centuries, millenia worth of culturally imbedded differences and hatred is simply not a realisitc outcome. People will be glad he is dead, but thy will not forget that they still hate country/religion/person 'X'.

Beyond that, the clean slate concept where everyone is somehow forgiven for everything they ever did in the past is also horribly immature. If life has a reset button then why should anyone put forth any effort in something? If someone else can die to get me off the hook, then where is my incentive to better myself?

If by some miracle, enough of the current generation of people got the message to stop all conflicts in their lifetime, it would still not guarantee anything for future generations. The blood the previous generation spilled to give their children peace, will also introduce the danger of complacency and entitlement. If they don't have to act and think, they become ignorant. Ignorance leads to fear of the unknown and foreign. Fear leads to anger, anger to hate, and I'll stop there because I'm starting to quote Yoda (unintentionally), but you know where this goes. It is called a 'chain of hatred' for a reason.

[Xander]

How many other works of fiction employ an idea does not make an idea viable. "If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." (forgive me, but I've forgotten who said this)}

I'd say that phrase cuts both ways here, ironically enough. ;)


The fact is that the turn-myself-into-the-absolute-hate-target-and-end-all-hate-forever-with-my-death idea is not realistic. It is an awesome idea and speaks to the nobility and determination of a character in that they are willing to destroy their own image (and usually life as well) in favor of bettering the world, but it would not realistically create the sort of situation that is shown at the end of the series.

Does it have to be realistic? The world of Code Geass is not and has never been entirely realistic. I don't know why do you expect it to have 100% realistic results when this isn't the place for it. I don't even think Watchmen's outcome, whether you go by the movie or comic version, would work in our own reality either. The same thing goes for 00's ending or almost anything else you might want to bring up.

I think the value of an idea is not just how logical it is, by itself or when applied to the real world, but how much thematic sense it has, especially in the context of this particular fictional world and its characters, which in my opinion is plenty. There are many valid, formal, philosophical criticisms, but I think that's missing the point of the story and of Lelouch's character.

If many works of fiction employ an unrealistic idea, I don't think the problem lies in its inherent lack of realism, unless you lose all suspension of disbelief and try to be cynical about the entire matter, which is possible but rather...wasteful maybe?


The idea that one man/boy's death can erase decades, centuries, millenia worth of culturally imbedded differences and hatred is simply not a realisitc outcome. People will be glad he is dead, but thy will not forget that they still hate country/religion/person 'X'.


In addition to what I mentioned before, I don't think this means that all hatred from all times past, present or future was forever erased even if there was some relief from it due to Lelouch's death.

I think the point was to create a better world, not a perfect one, and even if hatred remains after the fact, this much was accomplished and the world is more peaceful, at least for the time being. The world is exhausted from war and a new set of leaders is in place, which is a better starting point and should allow for new ways to channel conflicts on a global scale. I think of it as a transitional period more than a permanent state of peace, but sometimes real improvements do come from such periods, even if things degenerate later on.


Beyond that, the clean slate concept where everyone is somehow forgiven for everything they ever did in the past is also horribly immature. If life has a reset button then why should anyone put forth any effort in something? IfB˜±B ×.ne else can die to get me off the hook, then where is my incentive to better myself?


This is, of course, a philosophical question that only truly matters if you try to apply theoncept by itself outside of its context. Which, again, I don't think was meant to be the point. I mean, going by that measure, then entire religions should be reduced to nothingness yet they still exist. I'm not a believer and this isn't the place for such talk, but I realize the same idea is nothing new. That's all.

[Orga777]

How many other works of fiction employ an idea does not make an idea viable. "If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." (forgive me, but I've forgotten who said this).

Not when it works. ;) Again, I point to Watchmen for my perfect example. :heh:

The fact is that the turn-myself-into-the-absolute-hate-target-and-end-all-hate-forever-with-my-death idea is not realistic. It is an awesome idea and speaks to the nobility and determination of a character in that they are willing to destroy their own image (and usually life as well) in favor of bettering the world, but it would not realistically create the sort of situation that is shown at the end of the series.

Not realistic? I won't argue that point, but neither is getting a supernatural power that allows you to control minds and Jupiter. XD

Now, will the peace last? Probably not because it is human nature to fight sadly. But what it did do is unite the world for a time and may prevent something as dreadful as Lelouch or Charles from happening again, even if wars start up again.

The idea that one man/boy's death can erase decades, centuries, millenia worth of culturally imbedded differences and hatred is simply not a realisitc outcome. People will be glad he is dead, but thy will not forget that they still hate country/religion/person 'X'.

You see, I don't agree with that. All nations change. Most people don't hate the country of Germany for the monstrocities of Hitler today right? No, they hate the actions used by the people in power at the time. Why can't this be the same thing, especially if Britannia is willing to change some of its views?

Beyond that, the clean slate concept where everyone is somehow forgiven for everything they ever did in the past is also horribly immature. If life has a reset button then why should anyone put forth any effort in something? If someone else can die to get me off the hook, then where is my incentive to better myself?

Except that didn't exactly happen. It wasn't truely a clean slate, it is going to be hard work to rebuild everything though, so everyone is coming together for that goal and putting their differences aside. Nobody said there wouldn't be problems.

If by some miracle, enough of the current generation of people got the message to stop all conflicts in their lifetime, it would still not guarantee anything for future generations. The blood the previous generation spilled to give their children peace, will also introduce the danger of complacency and entitlement. If they don't have to act and think, they become ignorant. Ignorance leads to fear of the unknown and foreign. Fear leads to anger, anger to hate, and I'll stop there because I'm starting to quote Yoda (unintentionally), but you know where this goes. It is called a 'chain of hatred' for a reason.

That is true and I agree. I am not on board that the peace will last after all. XD

[Xander]

That is true and I agree. I am not on board that the peace will last after all. XD

Nor do I, sooner or later trouble will arise, but then someone will say that this makes Lelouch's death pointless, which I would disagree with.

Lelouch was always an absolute idealist at heart, in my opinion, only one who wore pragmatic and cynical robes due to the circumstances.

The whole idea of Zero being an evil who would fight a greater evil is pretty idealistic to begin with, since in practice that would, naturally, only lead to more evil yet Lelouch always expected something better to come out of it. For all his trickery and all his sins, he believed that the creation of a kind world would be possible in the end and, in a way, Zero Requiem represents the same belief.

Instead of a forceful but perhaps more lasting peace like that of Schneizel's Damocles or imposing a human instrumentality knockoff like that of Charles, Lelouch wanted to believe that people would, if given the chance, freely continue to struggle for happiness and, just maybe, create a better tomorrow. It's not that unexpected for him to reach that conclusion since it's pretty much a reflection born out of his own life and that of those individuals he had met.

The key thing here is that Lelouch wanted punishment as well, first and foremost, which was his own self-limitation, but he also wanted to create a situation where the world would be able to find diplomatic ways for conflict resolution and he set up a few mechanisms which would help in this effort (the UFN, new leaders and a new Zero). Just by doing that, the world is already on the road to being "kinder" or at least better than it was before, even if things start to go wrong two, five, ten or twenty years later.

[Orga777]

Nor do I, sooner or later trouble will arise, but then someone will say that this makes Lelouch's death pointless, which I would disagree with.

Lelouch was always an absolute idealist at heart, in my opinion, only one who wore pragmatic and cynical robes due to the circumstances.

The whole idea of Zero being an evil who would fight a greater evil is pretty idealistic to begin with, since in practice that would, naturally, only lead to more evil yet Lelouch always expected something better to come out of it. For all his trickery and all his sins, he believed that the creation of a kind world would be possible in the end and, in a way, Zero Requiem represents the same belief.

Instead of a forceful but perhaps more lasting peace like that of Schneizel's Damocles or imposing a human instrumentality knockoff like that of Charles, Lelouch wanted to believe that people would, if given the chance, freely continue to struggle for happiness and, just maybe, create a better tomorrow. It's not that unexpected for him to reach that conclusion since it's pretty much a reflection born out of his own life and that of those individuals he had met.

The key thing here is that Lelouch wanted punishment as well, first and foremost, which was his own self-limitation, but he also wanted to create a situation where the world would be able to find diplomatic ways for conflict resolution and he set up a few mechanisms which would help in this effort (the UFN, new leaders and a new Zero). Just by doing that, the world is already on the road to being "kinder" or at least better than it was before, even if things start to go wrong two, five, ten or twenty years later.

And I agree fully with this post. Well thought out, and expresses my views perfectly.

[Betteroffer]

An idea expressed in fiction is an idea. It does not lose any value because it is used in a fictional setting but it does not gain any value either.

Yes Zero Requiem was awesome and showed the absolute depth of Lelouch's commitment to a better world, but it was also completely unecessary. All of the deaths in Zero Requiem were unecessary, including Lelouch's.

Lelouch could have stopped with the Geassing of the core nobility and a few dozen soldiers, if he even needed that. He didn't even need to make them into complete brain puppets, just a broader command like "Support me and my reign," and he's set.

He could have ruled Britannia justly, setting in motion changes that would better both Britannia and the rest of the world. He could have joined the UFN peacefully. He was a blank slate to the rest of the world as far as a ruler was concerned. He did good things and the citizens were calling him the 'Emperor of Justice at the UFN meeting.

Instead he chose to turn the world against him when all but maybe 20 people (Schneizel, Cornelia and the Core BK) thought he was the answer to their prayers, and of those 20, all but 2 or 3 of them were already doubting themselves anyway. He pushed away those who loved him, making them try to kill him, which would have let Schneizel kill them if they had suceeded, and made them believe that the person they loved was a monster, only to make them feel worse when they saw how he wanted to help people and were then honor bound to live without him and perpetuate the lie that he was pure evil. He killed and oppressed people just so the survivors would want him dead, and hoped that they would trust his sister to rule in his place after he was dead.

At this point after Euphemia and Lelouch's actions, the world would be hard pressed to trust any Britannian rulers, especially the seemingly benevolent ones. Everytime Britannia extends an olive branch to the world there has been a viper hidden in the leaves. All this because his pride demanded that he receive punishment for his own sins.

For his need to impose a punishment on himself, he could have done numerous things to make his life horrible despite the adoration the world might be feeling for him. He could seclude himself from the world, accepting 20 hour work days, Geass his friends and loved ones to not want to be around him or even forget him and Jeremiah's Geass Canceller allows this to be used on Kallen and Suzaku as well. He could even Geass himself to feel lousy and depressed and to genuinely not enjoy his life, with a 'live on' command tossed in there to prevent suicides.

Yes, I know things in fiction don't have to be realistic, if they were they'd be boring, but there are degrees of realsim employed in a series, and Zero Requiem was IMHO a massive drop in the levels of realism that Code Geass had displayed to that point.

[snowdevil_crow]

But it was dramatic and flashy and angsty, so who cares? XD

[Betteroffer]

But it was dramatic and flashy and angsty, so who cares? XD

I hereby concede my arguemnt in its entirity to you.:D

You're right, and I should say right now that I don't hate, or even dislike the ending of Code Geass. It was a TV show and it's over now. I just feel like the ending wasn't given the love and attention that the body of the series was (hell, the staff actually said this was the case, but it was beyond their control) and I am saddened by it.

I apologize in advance if my last post seemed to come off as biting any heads off.

[Kakashi]

But it was dramatic and flashy and angsty, so who cares? XD

People who have "standards". :p

I thought the ending was great, sort of made up for the rushed episodes leading up to the finale. The only qualm I have with the series is that it began to undermine the importance of secondary characters towards the end. I felt the integrity (wholeness) of the story began to sort of deteriorate, and it wasn't as satisfying as it could have been.

While Lelouch was the best character, the anime team focused a bit too much on him and his thoughts. We never got to know what the others were thinking and feeling.

[snowdevil_crow]

I hereby concede my arguemnt in its entirity to you.:D

You're right, and I should say right now that I don't hate, or even dislike the ending of Code Geass. It was a TV show and it's over now. I just feel like the ending wasn't given the love and attention that the body of the series was (hell, the staff actually said this was the case, but it was beyond their control) and I am saddened by it.

I apologize in advance if my last post seemed to come off as biting any heads off.

Oh, no, it definitely didn't. I agree with pretty much everything you said. And yeah, Code Geass was kind of a trainwreck of logic.

A lot of the Code Geass haters themselves even have points about the ludicrousity of the anime. But when all's said and done, I can't help but think "so what?" It was entertaining. It tugged at my heartstrings. It made me think. It made me care about the characters. And that's good enough for me. XD

[Kid Ying]

I'm with you, Snow. I just want to have fun when i watch a series, and Code Geass gave me a lot of fun, so i'm okay with all his flaws.

BUUUUUUUUT, Suzaku should have his own series. He's too awesome to be just the second character on the show.

[snowdevil_crow]

BUUUUUUUUT, Suzaku should have his own series. He's too awesome to be just the second character on the show.

I dunno, I thought he and Lelouch were pretty awesome as the sort of leads of Code Geass. I wouldn't mind seeing one based around him growing up in the army, though.

... we need to see that scene where he dresses in a skirt for military officers.

[Kid Ying]

Hum... Actually, i think i don't really need to see this one. :heh:

But, the main problem with Suzaku is that he was the antagonist of Lelouch for a lot of time. It's hard not to pick one to choose and by doing this, a lot of people were cheering against him.

Which is kind of funny, because Suzaku is the typical hero in anime that everyone loves it... Except by the maso part, hehe. I really wanted to see a series with him in the main role to see the reactions of the people. And also, i want moar Suzaku, since he was da best.

[azul120]

I still have a feeling Suzaku would still be somewhat unpopular for his oafish tendencies (his whole "work within the system even though it's rotten to the core to begin with" ethic, for one), and Lelouch would still be as popular as an anti-hero. There are a lot of fandoms out there where the anti-hero rivals if not exceeds the aw-shucks protagonist in terms of popularity. CG subverted this by reversing the roles, and quite possibly by having an even more naively good-intentioned person than your usual protagonist as the opposing character.

[snowdevil_crow]

I thought a lot of people liked Suzaku --- mainly girls, I've noticed. He seems quite squishible. xD

Mind you, I have seen a lot of hate for him, as well, so... meh.

[azul120]

Well, I meant in a relative sense.

[Xander]

Yes Zero Requiem was awesome and showed the absolute depth of Lelouch's commitment to a better world, but it was also completely unecessary. All of the deaths in Zero Requiem were unecessary, including Lelouch's.


It's unnecessary for you and me, as external critics of the show or simply as human beings, but I don't think it was unnecessary for Lelouch, the character, being who he was, which is the point.


For his need to impose a punishment on himself, he could have done numerous things to make his life horrible despite the adoration the world might be feeling for him. He could seclude himself from the world, accepting 20 hour work days, Geass his friends and loved ones to not want to be around him or even forget him and Jeremiah's Geass Canceller allows this to be used on Kallen and Suzaku as well. He could even Geass himself to feel lousy and depressed and to genuinely not enjoy his life, with a 'live on' command tossed in there to prevent suicides.

The real answer would be "you should ask the writer to get a detailed answer since both of us are only speculating and making interpretations" but that's not going to happen. :heh:

Still, I don't think the question is whether he "could" but whether he "would" and there's a subtle difference involved.

You've made some valid points, minor and otherwise, which I can leave alone, but this one I can't really agree with. Not because I agree with Lelouch's way of doing things, but simply because I don't think he would accept living on just like that given his state of mind at the end of the series. Specifically between Turns 20-21, which is when Zero Requiem was planned out in-universe.

I think it's also consistent for Lelouch, given his stated beliefs since day one (those who are allowed to shoot are those who are prepared to be shot), to consider death the only appropriate punishment after all the deaths he's already caused, directly or indirectly, and generally speaking all the harm he has brought to others through Geass. Lelouch didn't want to die without being able to accomplish anything, that's what really scared him, but he was morally prepared to accept such a fate from the beginning. In fact, one might even argue he developed a death wish through guilt, like Suzaku, but just didn't want to die for the sake of dying: he wanted punishment *and* something more. It was a conditional one.

Yes, I know things in fiction don't have to be realistic, if they were they'd be boring, but there are degrees of realsim employed in a series, and Zero Requiem was IMHO a massive drop in the levels of realism that Code Geass had displayed to that point.

Well, did both of us watch the same Code Geass, or more to the point, the same R2?

I would say reality was already growing increasingly distant during the first season and the second one, long before Zero Requiem, had only gradually continued the downward trend towards situations that fit the perceived purposes of the story much more than any external demand for plausibility. I don't think there was a sudden drop for ZR out of the blue.


You're right, and I should say right now that I don't hate, or even dislike the ending of Code Geass. It was a TV show and it's over now. I just feel like the ending wasn't given the love and attention that the body of the series was (hell, the staff actually said this was the case, but it was beyond their control) and I am saddened by it.

I can't speak about love and attention, this is just for the sake of being clear, but the staff has said that the ending didn't deviate from their plans as much as other parts of the show, like the middle, did.

Taken from the Continue interview that's floating around here and there:


It was a shocking final episode; did you have a difficult time writing it, Mr. Okouchi?

Okouchi: No. The last episode wasn't difficult at all; in fact, it was the middle parts of R2 that turned out to be rough going. For the final episode, [I'd/we'd] already decided on the ending when writing the script for the first episode of the previous series. Episode 1, Episode 25 (Episode 1 and the final episode of the previous series) and episode 25 of R2 -- these episodes did not deviate much from our original plans.


In other words, we can't really draw a line in the sand, but it looks like it would be the bulk of R2, and not the ending, that had to go through the most changes.

I imagine that perhaps the ending could have been portrayed in a more convincing manner, maybe enough for us as critics or maybe not, but I don't think he's saying that Lelouch's death, which is the key part of the ending, wasn't part of the plan. Later on he even says it was a "logical end" and cites the same Stage 1 phrase I mentioned above.

But yes, I do admit that the road to the same result could always be different and it's unfortunate we didn't get to see the original plan.

[Nogitsune]

I still say Lelouch chose death as his "punishment" because he didn't want to suffer, but to end it all.
Which is why I never saw it as a punishment.
I also agree with the "he didn't want to die for the sake of dying" thingy, though.

[incorrupts]

I still say Lelouch chose death as his "punishment" because he didn't want to suffer, but to end it all.
Which is why I never saw it as a punishment.
I also agree with the "he didn't want to die for the sake of dying" thingy, though.

Lelouch saw it, as a justified punishment though. {he says to Suzaku "this is also a punishment for you."} And in the end, it was a punishment. The price for his Geass-usage.
The fact, that this self-righteous-punishment-suicide, served for other purposes as well, is another convo.

[Nogitsune]

Lelouch saw it, as a justified punishment though. {he says to Suzaku "this is also a punishment for you."} And in the end, it was a punishment. The price for his Geass-usage.
The fact, that this self-righteous-punishment-suicide, served for other purposes as well, is another convo.

I know that Lelouch saw it as a punishment. However, I don't have to agree with him.
He wanted to die - he even smiled - and most of the time, I think a punishment someone chooses themselves isn't a punishment.

[incorrupts]

I know that Lelouch saw it as a punishment. However, I don't have to agree with him.
He wanted to die - he even smiled - and most of the time, I think a punishment someone chooses themselves isn't a punishment.

You said it. It is still a punishment. 8D

[Nogitsune]

You said it. It is still a punishment. 8D

rofl.
I won't argue about semantics. xD

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

I think it's also consistent for Lelouch, given his stated beliefs since day one (those who are allowed to shoot are those who are prepared to be shot), to consider death the only appropriate punishment after all the deaths he's already caused, directly or indirectly, and generally speaking all the harm he has brought to others through Geass. Lelouch didn't want to die without being able to accomplish anything, that's what really scared him, but he was morally prepared to accept such a fate from the beginning. In fact, one might even argue he developed a death wish through guilt, like Suzaku, but just didn't want to die for the sake of dying: he wanted punishment *and* something more. It was a conditional one.

I disagree entirely. Lulu believed, and still believe, that the best way to pay the price for evil is to work to the end of your days in undoing the damage. This is why he Geassed his brother into being the servant of Zero. It is SUZAKU who believe death is the ideal punishment.

No matter what you say, I can't accept Lulu having a deathwish. That's Suzaku's job. Lulu had always believed that his own life is not valuable enough to be a worthy sacrifice for anything. The only reason Zero Requiem was done the way it was, was because Lulu was also not willing to let anyone else do any job he can do himself. The King must lead, after all.

Should Lulu found himself alive at the end of it all, he would move on. There are plenty of evils and injustices in the world still left to repair, after all. Killing himself after surviving, would seem like a sacrilege to a miracle. Lulu would decide he is still alive for a reason, and continue to make the world a better place behind the scenes, in his own way.

[Betteroffer]

I also don't believe Lelouch had a deathwish in the end. I suppose he briefly had one a few moments after the BK betrayal, since he told Rolo that he had no more reasons to live, but it could also be in a more passive sense. Something like "I don't want to die, but I'm not woth saving/risking another's life for."

Remember Lelouch was genuinely surprised when he learned about Suzaku's and C.C.'s respective deathwishes. He firmly believed that life has meaning because one is alive.

If I recall it was said in one of the pieces of post series side materials that Lelouch considered Zero Requiem and death a viable punishment because in the end he still wanted life. I vaguely recall it said it like: "Lelouch who wanted nothing more than a life with his sister..." But someone please correct me if I misremembered (I'm sadly good at that).

Lelouch still believed in the value of a single life's potential, and he could have obviously guessed that simply becoming the Emperor of Justice would still get him alot of what he wanted from life back, such as his friends from Ashford, Nunally's gentle world, and Kallen's friendship (or love, depending on your ship preferences)

He briefly lost his will to live after he had lost Nunally and the BK, which were his means of at least still realizing Nunally's dream of a gentle world. Rolo's sacrifice to save him reminded him that he began this rebellion as one boy, and that one person can still change things, thus he was determined to do so.

@ Xander: Yeah, I gathered Lelouch would end up worm food in the end. I'm not that good at predicting things in shows, but the instant Euphemia shot the first person at the SAZ I just heard a Chris Rock voice in my head saying "Ooh, now ya' know he's gonna die." Part of me hoped that they would still take a more creative route for the ending, but again, it was at least entertaining.

And I stick by believing it was a drop in the levels of realism I had expected from the series (or at least the first season), though I also agree that it began a steady drop early into R2. It just felt like a nose dive after Shirley's death, and the way they were forced to handle the last arc. Most people have said that right? That the first half of R2 was too slow, since the staff had to do a reintroduction or the series, and the last half was too rushed?

I agree that they could have at least made the ending more convincing with time, hence my comment about it not getting attention. It stayed the same in function yes, but the journey to that conclusion could have had subtle differences and better fleshouts, that wouldn't leave things so disjointed. What the staff had left to work with left me feeling that it was too much of a style over substance ending, even for Lelouch.

All in all it felt like the first season was a near ten in ranking (to me), but R2 was sadly more generic, like a 5 to 6. Still good, but it felt like wasted potential, which is where the disappointment comes from.

[Xander]

All in all it felt like the first season was a near ten in ranking (to me), but R2 was sadly more generic, like a 5 to 6. Still good, but it felt like wasted potential, which is where the disappointment comes from.

For me the first season was an 8, good overall albeit not without problems, while I think the second was almost a 6 but still managed to get close enough to a 7 by the end.

Some episodes were better than that, some were worse. I tend to be more forgiving in terms of rating shows that end well as opposed to those that don't.

I was still disappointed in several areas, but I understand the things the staff had to go through and I suppose it's the difference between looking at a glass as half full or half empty, if you want to put it in simple terms.


I also don't believe Lelouch had a deathwish in the end. I suppose he briefly had one a few moments after the BK betrayal, since he told Rolo that he had no more reasons to live, but it could also be in a more passive sense. Something like "I don't want to die, but I'm not woth saving/risking another's life for."

You could look at it either way, but look at what he did afterwards: he trapped himself with Charles, potentially forever considering the way Lelouch phrased it, which may not be death but it is certainly a form of eternal punishment. In other words, I think that "brief" moment, among others, was also a sign of larger process and not just a random thought.

Remember Lelouch was genuinely surprised when he learned about Suzaku's and C.C.'s respective deathwishes. He firmly believed that life has meaning because one is alive.

Because he cared for them, in a way, and felt they just wanted to die for its own sake and not accomplishing anything in the process. For instance, C.C. just wanted death from one of her Geass contractors and nothing more. Suzaku didn't want to die while improving the world, he wanted to place himself in situations where he had a high chance of being killed as punishment for the past. I'm not saying Lelouch was exactly like either of those two, his own personality and beliefs have their nuances.

If I recall it was said in one of the pieces of post series side materials that Lelouch considered Zero Requiem and death a viable punishment because in the end he still wanted life. I vaguely recall it said it like: "Lelouch who wanted nothing more than a life with his sister..." But someone please correct me if I misremembered (I'm sadly good at that).

I'm not saying that he didn't see any value in life at all or that he had no desire to live with Nunnally and the others, in his own heart, but the very same fact he was able to make that choice regardless of that tends to confirm my thoughts on the matter, the way I see it.


He briefly lost his will to live after he had lost Nunally and the BK, which were his means of at least still realizing Nunally's dream of a gentle world. Rolo's sacrifice to save him reminded him that he began this rebellion as one boy, and that one person can still change things, thus he was determined to do so.


Ironically enough, that last thought doesn't contradict the fact he still killed himself while accomplishing something in the process, which is what he wanted to do and is also exactly what I've pointed out before. The issue is what do you make of everything else.

I disagree entirely. Lulu believed, and still believe, that the best way to pay the price for evil is to work to the end of your days in undoing the damage. This is why he Geassed his brother into being the servant of Zero. It is SUZAKU who believe death is the ideal punishment.


Not quite what I meant, but I would still argue otherwise, since I do think there's more than enough evidence that Lelouch developed something of a guilt complex over the course of the last half of R2 due to everything he lost and all the damage he caused. To a certain extent the roots for it were present even earlier than that.

What makes Lelouch truly different is the fact his decision can't be considered to be as simple as Suzaku's for the reasons which have already been mentioned or alluded to, though his own ideals didn't consist of being opposed to death or sacrifice per se. That's why that phrase is important and it's not something I pulled out of nowhere, it's in the script and the writer himself thought it was applicable. It's a more complex situation.

It should also be pointed out that the most appropiate punishment for Schneizel is especially fitting for him since he pretty much didn't care about his own life and essentially needed to be pushed into doing something by those around him. This doesn't necessarily mean that Lelouch considers it the most fitting outcome for everyone and anyone else. He didn't consider it a good punishment for Charles and Marianne, for instance, or all the people he himself killed.


No matter what you say, I can't accept Lulu having a deathwish. That's Suzaku's job. Lulu had always believed that his own life is not valuable enough to be a worthy sacrifice for anything. The only reason Zero Requiem was done the way it was, was because Lulu was also not willing to let anyone else do any job he can do himself. The King must lead, after all.


It's not just a matter of accepting things on a personal level or not. I think there are multiple reasons and multiple interpretations for why that was the case, not just one or the other. My analysis is just one possibility, but I don't agree with leaving out an element that was made rather clear by some of Lelouch's own actions and statements (in both seasons) as well as being supported by the way the story developed.

In addition to the above, this overlooks the fact that Suzaku ended up, by the time of Zero Requiem, accepting an entirely different kind of punishment because his previous mindset had, in short, snapped after the events of Turn 18. He also wasn't a completely static character in that regard, though you could argue it was presented in a rather sloppy way. For most of the series, Suzaku thought that dying or generally putting himself at risk would be the necessary punishment for his patricide, yet that wasn't the punishment he ended up with. There's a bit of an interesting contrast there, now that I think about it.

Should Lulu found himself alive at the end of it all, he would move on. There are plenty of evils and injustices in the world still left to repair, after all. Killing himself after surviving, would seem like a sacrilege to a miracle. Lulu would decide he is still alive for a reason, and continue to make the world a better place behind the scenes, in his own way.

I respect that interpretation but, once again, it is not my own since I do believe he's already dead.

[azul120]

If Lelouch were still alive, would he once again hide underneath the mantle of Zero, if not underneath another proverbial mask?

By the end, neither Lelouch nor Suzaku wanted to die, they just wanted to suffer in ways that stood in direct contrast to what they had been after.

[Charred Knight]

Suzaku clearly wanted to die, Euphemia was dead, no one outside of a few people liked him, and he wanted to die but couldn't due to the Geass. Suzaku never got over killing his father.

Its stated in the guide itself, that Suzaku wanted to die but was forced to live as the ultimate punishment, just like how Lelouch who wanted to live, died for his punishment.

[Xander]

The difference is whether you think that's just an irony of fate or whether it was something that both of them chose, which is clear since they all knew what the plan was, and why they reached that decision. That's where different interpretations are present.

[Tyrone Biggums]

I don't think Lelouch wanted to die...but he knew there was only one way for peace to happen...which was to get the world to hate one source. This is like what Celestial Being did and what happend in Watchmen...when mankind has something other then each other to hate, we have a unified nation with a common enemy.

I'm still mad with how this show ended...Lelouch had to be one of the greatest characters of all time AND HE DIED!!!!

[incorrupts]

I don't think Lelouch wanted to die...but he knew there was only one way for peace to happen...which was to get the world to hate one source. This is like what Celestial Being did and what happend in Watchmen...when mankind has something other then each other to hate, we have a unified nation with a common enemy.

I'm still mad with how this show ended...Lelouch had to be one of the greatest characters of all time AND HE DIED!!!!

I do think, that after he saw the lie his mother was, along with his bubble-papa, having at the time lost everything, he wanted to die, but did not want his death to go in vain. {so, he came up with the super-zomg-plan}
He "lost" a bit his resolve, when it was revealed that Nunally was alive, but just for a moment.
He came up with ZR, and he went through it ultimately.

p.s guys, i have not watched nor read "Watchmen" yet, but i see a lot of references about it, when it comes to ZR. Should i get scared? |DD

[morbosfist]

p.s guys, i have not watched nor read "Watchmen" yet, but i see a lot of references about it, when it comes to ZR. Should i get scared? |DDThe guy in Watchmen was a bit smarter about it, though admittedly he had more to work with.
He blamed the all-powerful, apathetic superman who really could kill anyone and everyone on a whim if he so wished, and made it look like said superman killed a hell of a lot of people just to drive that point home. This is during the middle of an alternate Cold War, so people learned their lesson real quick and made nice to avoid further reprisals.

The superman was actually ok with this since it worked, and it's not like anyone on the planet was a threat to him anyway.

[Nobodyman9]

The guy in Watchmen was a bit smarter about it, though admittedly he had more to work with.
He blamed the all-powerful, apathetic superman who really could kill anyone and everyone on a whim if he so wished, and made it look like said superman killed a hell of a lot of people just to drive that point home. This is during the middle of an alternate Cold War, so people learned their lesson real quick and made nice to avoid further reprisals.

The superman was actually ok with this since it worked, and it's not like anyone on the planet was a threat to him anyway.
LOL, that's not even half as entertaining as the graphic novel version

The bad guys plan in the GN was pretty much the same as the film, which was to create a deadly and destructive third party which would distract the world it's current hostilities and force the world to unite against this new threat. Only it wasn't Dr. Manhattan that he blamed it on. You know what it was?

A giant f*cking squid.

Well, actually it was really supposed to be an alien, or at least that's what he wanted the world to believe, but it was really a genetically engineered monster and it looked like a giant squid. But any rate, this was supposed to be the evil threat that united the world. The main difference between Code Geass and Watchmen being that the bad guy didn't throw the world's hatred upon himself and actually got to live on watching over it and be sure peace was maintained.

Anyway, if you ever get the chance you should give it a read incorrupts.

[Kid Ying]

Okay, i read watchmen and i watched watchmen and i think Lelouch was a bit smarter. His plan wasn't, but the afterplan is better. Ozy made world peace and stuff, but it can be easily broken(and not by Rorschach's journal, since no one will believe in this stuff). In CG, Lelouch put people he trusted in the power, if he can't trust in Suzaku and Nunnally, he can't trust anybody. Lelouch is not alive to see if things will go well, but it's not like Ozymandias can make something if the world war three starts again.

It's just my opinion, hehe. But i love Watchmen, the movie was not that great, but still is good movie, but too big for the people that was expecting a normal super hero movie. No wonder it failed at the boxoffice.

[Nobodyman9]

It's just my opinion, hehe. But i love Watchmen, the movie was not that great, but still is good movie, but too big for the people that was expecting a normal super hero movie. No wonder it failed at the boxoffice.
What're you talking about? It was number 1 at the box office on opening weekend.

[Kid Ying]

He was first, but even then it disappointed WB expectations(they were expecting to be bigger than 300, from Zack Snyder too, but even in more theaters, it was 15 million less than 300) and the movie didn't payed himself with the domestic gross, so, for WB, it failed, specially if you compare to Dark Knight.

[Orga777]

I disagree entirely. Lulu believed, and still believe, that the best way to pay the price for evil is to work to the end of your days in undoing the damage. This is why he Geassed his brother into being the servant of Zero. It is SUZAKU who believe death is the ideal punishment.

Or... you know... they switched philosophies somewhere in the middle. Suzaku was the one to live on, Lelouch was the one to die in the end. Character personalities change after certain events same thing here. Heck, it was practically a compromise on their views on how they changed teh world. Suzaku wanted to do it from the inside... and they most definitely did that. Lelouch wanted to destroy and recreate... and they did that too... And it was Lelouch's idea to be killed, not Suzaku's. So... yeah, Lelouch did it to give retribution to those he wronged. I see no problem here at all. Change of heart.

No matter what you say, I can't accept Lulu having a deathwish. That's Suzaku's job. Lulu had always believed that his own life is not valuable enough to be a worthy sacrifice for anything. The only reason Zero Requiem was done the way it was, was because Lulu was also not willing to let anyone else do any job he can do himself. The King must lead, after all.

Isn't that a little arrogant to think that way? It was a lot more than that. Which is why people that even hate Lelouch can sympathize with him in the end. By going around and saying "He only did it because of his ego and his greatness and he feels no one else is worthy to do it" kinda takes away from the sacrifice...

Should Lulu found himself alive at the end of it all, he would move on. There are plenty of evils and injustices in the world still left to repair, after all. Killing himself after surviving, would seem like a sacrilege to a miracle. Lulu would decide he is still alive for a reason, and continue to make the world a better place behind the scenes, in his own way.

Luckily that didn't happen and he is dead. XD

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Isn't that a little arrogant to think that way? It was a lot more than that. Which is why people that even hate Lelouch can sympathize with him in the end. By going around and saying "He only did it because of his ego and his greatness and he feels no one else is worthy to do it" kinda takes away from the sacrifice...

That's where my view of "sacrifice" comes in.

"Sacrifice", in the noble sense, HAS to be self-sacrifice. Because if you force anyone else to do the suffering, you are just murdering someone. The whole point of a sacrifice is to lose something or someone you value. Like burning meat from your best goat in a fire, or the heart of your first-born. And the ultimate form of sacrifice is losing your own life.

Lulu has to do it because it is his idea. Anyone forced to take his place would have been victims, and are thus murdered rather than sacrificed.

[Cosmic Eagle]

LOL, that's not even half as entertaining as the graphic novel version

The bad guys plan in the GN was pretty much the same as the film, which was to create a deadly and destructive third party which would distract the world it's current hostilities and force the world to unite against this new threat. Only it wasn't Dr. Manhattan that he blamed it on. You know what it was?

A giant f*cking squid.

Well, actually it was really supposed to be an alien, or at least that's what he wanted the world to believe, but it was really a genetically engineered monster and it looked like a giant squid. But any rate, this was supposed to be the evil threat that united the world. The main difference between Code Geass and Watchmen being that the bad guy didn't throw the world's hatred upon himself and actually got to live on watching over it and be sure peace was maintained.

Anyway, if you ever get the chance you should give it a read incorrupts.

Eh? The movie didn't follow the fake alien plot?

[morbosfist]

Eh? The movie didn't follow the fake alien plot?To its benefit, I'd say. The comic version doesn't sound all that great in comparison.

[Kid Ying]

Eh? The movie didn't follow the fake alien plot?
No
In the movie, Veidt launches some bombs made from the same kind of energy that Dr. Manhatan uses, so everyone blames him and starts to get together to fight against him.

[Orga777]

To its benefit, I'd say. The comic version doesn't sound all that great in comparison.

The Squid works better than blaming Dr, Manhattan. Dr. Manhattan was on the pay-roll of the United States government, so the world can easily blame them for keeping a loose cannon around like that. The Giant squid was supposed to be something that the human race could come together against (and since they are able to be killed, is something they can protect themselves against... Dr. Manhattan can't be beaten by ANYTHING in fiction no matter what or who it is...) so, yeah, Squid all the way. XD But this is all OT. :heh:

That's where my view of "sacrifice" comes in.

"Sacrifice", in the noble sense, HAS to be self-sacrifice. Because if you force anyone else to do the suffering, you are just murdering someone. The whole point of a sacrifice is to lose something or someone you value. Like burning meat from your best goat in a fire, or the heart of your first-born. And the ultimate form of sacrifice is losing your own life.

Lulu has to do it because it is his idea. Anyone forced to take his place would have been victims, and are thus murdered rather than sacrificed.

I can see that and I agree, but I don't agree that it was all an ego based thing of no one else would have been worthy of the job and what not. I think it was more than just him wanting to sacrifice his life to see his plans finished, he DID want to be punished for all he did. That is all I really disagree with fully with you on.

[Levy]

I think it's more a blend of the two.
Withouth getting too much TL;DR - I think Lelouch started ZR because he realized he was the only one able to perform that, due do his intelligence, his power and his ruthlessness in bending other's will - but at the same time, he didn't think to be better than the others, it's more the reverse: he was aware of the evilness of his doings, yet cynically persuaded that the only route to achieve a great, effective change, was to use extreme means. But he was fighting to lose and let everyone else win, more focuse on the victory of the others rather than on his own glorification through defeat.
This is a subtle, maybe irrelevant difference, but the only spot I can give Lelouch is in between noble self-sacrifice and self-punishment. Maybe closer to Orga's view, although Vallen's point about sacrifice was really really good in general.

That's why I think (blade, I never replyied to you on that because I forget too, but that's the core of my reasoning...) that Emperor Lelouch is more 'moral' than Zero/Lelouch, because, although doing much more horrible things, he's aware of the degree of evil he is performing, unlike Zero/Lelouch that oftenly failed to realize the full extent of his actions.

[Laurcus]

Ok, The Lelouch might be alive thing has spread like wildfire across this and other forums. The ending is open ended you can think what you want. Having said that i will now prove that Lelouch is alive. Please note i didn't come up with this on my own about 2 months ago when i watched the ending, I tracked down the blog that as far as i can tell is the original source of this theory (have no idea what the site was called.) So i have a bit of insight into these theories that most people don't. I will now share this evidence, I will make it clear when something is fact and when it is my own opinion based on facts.

1 Fact, after he was stabbed the first thing Lelouch did was he covered his right hand in blood using his stab wound. (I will explain why that is critical after part 4)

2 Fact, even if you don't think Lelouch was the cart driver C.C. did talk to Lelouch in that scene. This is important because in season 1 she states "I don't speak to the dead." Opinion, this says to me that Lelouch is alive, unless you want to argue that the writers simply made a mistake.

3 Fact, in season 1 Lelouch says to C.C. if you're a witch i must simply become a warlock. Opinion, that says to me that Lelouch wants to be immortal like C.C. so he can spend eternity with her.

4 I will now explain the greatly misunderstood code transfer theory. The main thing you need for a code transfer is someone with a fully developed geass and someone with a code. The code transfer does not have to be willing on the part of the code bearer in fact it seems like one only needs to do somethin specific to make it happen (not sure what that is maybe direct physical contact?) This is seen from both sides, the nun gives C.C. her code without C.C. even knowing what's going on. Charles takes the code from V.V. it was not given willingly. Opinion, this says to me that since the code transfer has happened with one of either parties either not willing or not knowing what is going on, that the code transfer is accomplished through some specific act. Probably direct physical contact. Ok now in episode 21 of season 2 Lelouch's geass hits the final stage, it is fully developed. Charles takes off the glove around his right hand, that same hand is where his code is at. With his right hand he grabs Lelouch by the throat after Lelouch has the fully developed geass. Lelouch sees this so when Suzaku trys to intervene Lelouch stops him why would he do that unless he knew about the code transfer? Lelouch should have had his code in the same place the palm of his right hand see part 1 for details.

5 This point is huge imo and VERY misunderstood. Orange, some argue that he would not have gone along with a plan that involves Lelouch dying. That is incorrect, he would follow Lelouch's orders even if it was to let him die. But what people don't get is he would not have been happy about Lelouch dying he would have accepted it with grim reslove not smiles. Through the whole Lelouch death scene the only thing Orange really does is smile. This is best noticed after Lelouch is stabbed when Cornelia comes out of the building in the very next few frames you see Orange order a retreat and he has a huge grin on his face. You would think he would be sad or at least emotionless but smiles? Maybe he knows somethin we don't...

6 This last one is grasping at straws but i feel i must mention it. The paper crane in the final scene is zoomed in on by the camera. In japanese culture the crane symbolizes immortality and all thing coming full circle. Unless i'm wrong the crane is also the smae bird as the geass symbol? so to me that is a subtle hint that Lelouch is not only alive but immortal.

Ok that's all folks. Feel free to flame me now if you want, but like i said think what you want to if he died he died if he lived he lived. One last note it seems like a lot of people are saying that the code transfer thing creates a huge plothole and is not possible. Could anyone explain why? It seems to me like Lelouch not geting the code and becoming immortal would be the plothole that doesn't make sense lol.

[bladeofdarkness]

thats a nice theory
unfortunatly this entire theory hinges on one critical part which is unfotunatly untrue
this part
The ending is open ended you can think what you want.
the ending is not open ended
word of god confeirmed lelouch death
completely and totally beyond all doubt in several different sources including the complete code geass guide
http://community.livejournal.com/code_geass/1178870.html
sorry :heh:

[yezhanquan]

Well, I mentioned this before. Word of God is correct when he said that Lelouch died. However, we are the ones who assumed that he stay dead. From what I've seen from the world of CG, dead people may not stay dead.

As Shiro from F/SN puts it, "People who die are supposed to stay dead." What if they don't?

[bladeofdarkness]

for the moment he is canoniclly dead
and ment to stay as such
beyond that there isnt much else to say
anything could potentially happen
but for the moment, he is dead as disco

[yezhanquan]

Of course. As far as I recall, there aren't any plans to return to the series any time soon.

Oh well, at least the AU mangas are rolling.

[Kid Ying]

Well, sometime ago, Bonzo said that according to a guy working on Sunrise, a new CG was going to happen, but will new characters.

Of course if they want to resurrect Lelouch it's easy as hell, they can even say that the guidebooks was right, if they use the "The one who died is the emperor lelouch" kind of crap, but i don't know. It was too epic... Hard to make a good resurrection in cases like this.

[Laurcus]

Very good point about the creators saying he is dead however, imo they did the ending like this so they can do what they want with the series in the future. If they want they can just keep sayin he's dead till the end of time and that's how it will stay if they do that. Or they can say exactly what i have at any time they want and just use the excuse of well he was dead last time you saw him because he was technically dead before the code activated. So they can just go whatever way they want with the ending whenever they want, instead of actually telling us the fans what really happened they leave all these clues so they can come back to it later if they feel like it. Maybe i'm just a fan of set in stone no doubt concrete endings. :) Though i would still very much like to know how the code transfer happens since we never get more than a few clips of one actually taking place cmon throw me a bone here i'm dyin to know :)

[Narona]

Well, I mentioned this before. Word of God is correct when he said that Lelouch died. However, we are the ones who assumed that he stay dead. From what I've seen from the world of CG, dead people may not stay dead.

As Shiro from F/SN puts it, "People who die are supposed to stay dead." What if they don't?As always, my question is: Do people prefer Lelouch as the main character if Sunrise does a new CG series, or Do people prefer a new hero?

I would not mind a new hero. Lelouch is still very popular though. I was checking the most recent magazines japanese polls and he's still at the top. So maybe the "money" and "popularity of the character" will bring him back.

We'll see.

Stlightly OT: what is the next BIG Sunrise project? I'm talking about a series, not movie. They are planning to do a Gundam Seed movie, and a G00. So I wonder what will be their next big "series" for the Nichigo slot.

[incorrupts]

I would not mind a new hero. Lelouch is still very popular though. I was checking the most recent magazines japanese polls and he's still at the top. So maybe the "money" and "popularity of the character" will bring him back.

True.
And it is fiction, if they want to bring him back, they can find any kind of excuse they want, in order to do so.

Though, that would make them look ridiculous, because they have stated, that it is not the case. {apart from the last epi, that was obvious anyway}

[Narona]

True.
And it is fiction, if they want to bring him back, they can find any kind of excuse they want, in order to do so.

Though, that would make them look ridiculous, because they have stated, that it is not the case. {apart from the last epi, that was obvious anyway}
In a fantasy world, a person can have died and then can be brought to life (I don't know how it could be handled in Cg though). In that case that I'm talking about, that will not make them look ridiculous imo. Since Lelouch would have really died through the story before being revived.

[incorrupts]

In a fantasy world, a person can have died and then can be brought to life (I don't know how it could be handled in Cg though). In that case that I'm talking about, that will not make them look ridiculous imo. Since Lelouch would have really died through the story before being revived.

But this is the point. It is not only, how Lelouch's death was orchestrated, but it would beat the ZR point as well. Since it was Lelouch committing suicide for his sins, and trusting humanity as well.
Unless, they have an extremely good "excuse", that would bring back Lelouch, in a way, he did not plan to. {some kind of weird Code resurrection, out of his control}

[Narona]

But this is the point. It is not only, how Lelouch's death was orchestrated, but it would beat the ZR point as well. Since it was Lelouch committing suicide for his sins, and trusting humanity as well.
Unless, they have an extremely good "excuse", that would bring back Lelouch, in a way, he did not plan to. {some kind of weird Code resurrection, out of his control}

You said it all in that sentence. Before complaining, if they ever announce a new series with Lelouch as the main chara, I will wait to see what is the actual story before calling it ridiculous or a genius move.

[incorrupts]

You said it all in that sentence. Before complaining, if they ever announce a new series with Lelouch as the main chara, I will wait to see what is the actual story before calling it ridiculous or a genius move.

But i did not complain. 8D

I said, that i think chances are, it is gonna be a ridiculous-milky-move, instead of a "genius-one", considering how effort they put, to make Lelouch's death epic. It would take the whole meaning and in my book, that does mean "ridiculous/pathetic."

[Lolipopo]

You said it all in that sentence. Before complaining, if they ever announce a new series with Lelouch as the main chara, I will wait to see what is the actual story before calling it ridiculous or a genius move.

It would be a ridiculous move when it comes to the first serie, whatever would be the result. Code Geass culmination was Zero Requiem and the whole Lelouch's punishement who wanted to live with Nunally takes all his sense by his death; To make him alive by one way or another would be like a giant middle finger to the whole last part of the serie. Or the whole serie itself.

And well, even though it's Sunrise, we have many differents directors there. From what I saw in Geass, it seems Taniguchi didn't fall easily in pandering, while, for example, Fukuda is like totally submissed to his fans.
And we saw many times the result of such move...I have yet to remember one sequel which turn out great.

(And no one dare to mention Fumoffu -_- it's not a sequel, that's why it is great)
heh. I'm all for a Code geass AU with Lelouch BTW, but a next part, no thanks, one Fukuda is more than enough.

Now a sequel to geass seems a given? What I wonder is if C.C. will be a part of it. That could be nice but I have an hard time to picture her without Lelouch and the whole geass gang. Maybe her story ended up with the others's as well after all...

[Nobodyman9]

Hmm, personally I think it would be a bad move to bring Lelouch back to life. First off they'd have to come up with some bizarre, probably half-assed, explanation and...well, this whole Code Geass series was all about Lelouch, hence "Lelouch of the Rebellion". The way I see it, Lelouch's story is over. I wouldn't mind a sequel to Code Geass, but I don't think it should have Lelouch. But hey, you never know what the guys at Sunrise could come up with.

[Orga777]

Hmm, personally I think it would be a bad move to bring Lelouch back to life. First off they'd have to come up with some bizarre, probably half-assed, explanation and...well, this whole Code Geass series was all about Lelouch, hence "Lelouch of the Rebellion". The way I see it, Lelouch's story is over. I wouldn't mind a sequel to Code Geass, but I don't think it should have Lelouch. But hey, you never know what the guys at Sunrise could come up with.

It would be a bad move because while he gets off scott free, everyone else he knows gets kicked in the face. Suzaku can't be himself anymore and is stuck behind a mask for the rest of his life. Nunnally has to live in a world where her beloved brother is gone and she would never know that he is alive and is stuck ruleing a superpower. Kallen will never be able to get her felings requeited and will never fully be able to move on from Lelouch and how much he changed her. And for these characters it is a bitter sweet ending. Having Lelouch live makes his sacrifice worthless in my eyes and any type of sympathy I had towards the character would probably evaporate. He was redeemed in my eyes because of his selfless death. Bringing him back will reverse my stance back to what it was before Zero Requeim.

[Nobodyman9]

It would be a bad move because while he gets off scott free, everyone else he knows gets kicked in the face. Suzaku can't be himself anymore and is stuck behind a mask for the rest of his life. Nunnally has to live in a world where her beloved brother is gone and she would never know that he is alive and is stuck ruleing a superpower. Kallen will never be able to get her felings requeited and will never fully be able to move on from Lelouch and how much he changed her. And for these characters it is a bitter sweet ending. Having Lelouch live makes his sacrifice worthless in my eyes and any type of sympathy I had towards the character would probably evaporate. He was redeemed in my eyes because of his selfless death. Bringing him back will reverse my stance back to what it was before Zero Requeim.
Well, it would depend on the circumstances. Who knows, after being brought back to life maybe he could reunite with his friend and they could become involved in a new situation that could change their lives. There's also the possibility of Lelouch getting cloned back to life, which is not exactly the same thing as getting brought back to life. All I can say is, if they're gonna do that for Lelouch they better do it for Shirley and Euphie.

[incorrupts]

Well, it would depend on the circumstances. Who knows, after being brought back to life maybe he could reunite with his friend and they could become involved in a new situation that could change their lives. There's also the possibility of Lelouch getting cloned back to life, which is not exactly the same thing as getting brought back to life. All I can say is, if they're gonna do that for Lelouch they better do it for Shirley and Euphie.

Slightly ot, but they did this practically with Cornelia and Guilford. I am telling you SK, {for Shirley Knight, i got bored calling you nobody lol} Shirley got no chance. Sunrise craps her way worse, than the pigeon crapped my papa's car the other day, like honest. :x

[Nobodyman9]

Slightly ot, but they did this practically with Cornelia and Guilford. I am telling you SK, {for Shirley Knight, i got bored calling you nobody lol} Shirley got no chance. Sunrise craps her way worse, than the pigeon crapped my papa's car the other day, like honest. :x
Hmm, not quite my point. What we're dealing with here the idea of Lelouch being brought back from the dead. Ergo, there should be a way to do likewise with Shirley and Euphie. Cornelia and Guilford aren't the same thing since they were never officially dead. That was just a cop out by the writers.

[incorrupts]

Hmm, not quite my point. What we're dealing with here the idea of Lelouch being brought back from the dead. Ergo, there should be a way to do likewise with Shirley and Euphie. Cornelia and Guilford aren't the same thing since they were never officially dead. That was just a cop out by the writers.

And my point, is that Shirley gets shit, whatever the situation is, didn't you get it? 8D

Back on Lelouch, like i said, it would eliminate the purpose of the show, to somehow bring him up willingly. This is like, we are getting a timeskip, with Suzaku not living his Zero persona and having hooked up with Kallen. Wildly irrational and totally non-show-ish-OOC? Yep, kind of the point.

The only realistic "solution" i can see, is for the Code to meddle in some way and Lelouch getting a weird kind of resurrection-manifest. Something along those lines.

Anyway, it is all spec, i suppose we have to wait and see.

[Nobodyman9]

And my point, is that Shirley gets shit, whatever the situation is, didn't you get it? 8D
Right. And my point is that if they're cruel enough to do that I'm going to go to O&T's homes and kill their entire families right in front of them. Duh.

Back on Lelouch, like i said, it would eliminate the purpose of the show, to somehow bring him up willingly. This is like, we are getting a timeskip, with Suzaku not living his Zero persona and having hooked up with Kallen. Wildly irrational and totally non-show-ish-OOC? Yep, kind of the point.

The only realistic "solution" i can see, is for the Code to meddle in some way and Lelouch getting a weird kind of resurrection-manifest. Something along those lines.

Anyway, it is all spec, i suppose we have to wait and see.
Yeah, the way I see it is, if it does happen, either Lelouch is brought back to life in order to serve some purpose (his services are needed) or he gets brought back on accident somehow. Either way, it's unwilling.

[incorrupts]

Right. And my point is that if they're cruel enough to do that I'm going to go to O&T's homes and kill their entire families right in front of them. Duh.

I also, can get that and figure. 8D

Yeah, the way I see it is, if it does happen, either Lelouch is brought back to life in order to serve some purpose (his services are needed) or he gets brought back on accident somehow. Either way, it's unwilling.

Yep, pretty much what i said as well, glad we came to an agreement. {after such a long time. 8D}

[snowdevil_crow]

Speaking of the possibility for a third series and Lelouch's alive or dead status... I had the most bizarre argument with someone on youtube about the "Lelouch is alive!" theory...

This guy just messages me out of the blue with... okay, copypaste of the message he sent to me:

I read your post and i know your tired of this argument, but if you will read the following i'm sure you'll be convinced.

Lelouch is alive, and I can prove it. Please ignore all other explanations or conclusions you have been told or have come to yourself for the next few moments. There is a combination of proof and logical assumptions included. If you think a conclusion or assumption you have come to or heard of is logical as well, please understand that I've heard them all, and these are still the MOST likely scenarios. No, Lelouch didn't die to create a perfect world. He faked his death to create a perfect world, AND be alive to ensure it's success. That is the true essence of Lelouch, he cheats, lies, controls, and manipulates in order to achieve his goals. His goal was a better world for nunally at first, then for all the people of the world. So he decieves the world into believing he was an evil person, and that he died. He made the world a better place, but didn't die like all the other characters in anime. That's why he's the greatest character in all of anime.

In Code Geass there are immortal beings who have the ability to grant people a "geass". Once those people master their geass to the full extent, they have the ability to kill the immortal by taking their Code. The Code is what grants immortality, and the ability to grant geass. If you do not agree, skip this explanation as you have not even payed attention to the anime, and your opinion holds no value.

1. Lelouch is immortal.
Lelouch became immortal when he went to the world of C the second time.
How?
His father was there, who had become immortal. Lelouch, who had used his geass many times had mastered it, and that's evident by his geass' spreading to his second eye. Because of this, he was able to steal his father's code, and essentially "kill" the emperor.

2. CC talks to Lelouch
CC talks to Lelouch in a scene after his death and the thoughts of his friends.
What?
When CC is on the cart, she talks a little bit, then tilts her head towards the driver, and says,"Right, Lelouch?". She was definitely talking to the driver, in that frustrating anime style that many viewers fail to recognize. CC is smiling when this whole thing happens, something she usually does ONLY when she's thinking/talking to Lelouch. Also, she's always emo all the other times in the anime. But because lelouch is immortal, he lives with CC just like he promised, and CC no longer has to want death, but can live to be with him forever.

3. How do you know that the driver is Lelouch?
Some people say CC is talking to the sky, or to heaven, where Lelouch is supposedly dead.
(To this I can only type LOL)
As mentioned in #2, CC is talking to the driver anime style. The driver can only be leouch. Why? Well, other than the fact that she called him Lelouch, the driver has his whole head concealed. Why would anyone do this in a peaceful world? The ONLY logical answer is that the driver is the hated emporer of late, Lelouch Vi Britannia.

4. Want hard evidence?
Some people still say all this is speculation, and that only the facts that CC is smiling and Charles was killed can be actual facts.
(Oh?)
Early in the anime series, Nunnally gives her brother Lelouch a pink origami crane, which was taught to her by the japanese maid. This origami crane can be found on the cart next to CC. You may say "it's CC's to remind her of Lelouch". But let's be logical. That crane was a special keepsake to Lelouch, and it's very very doubtful that he even showed it to anyone else beforehand. Logic dictates that he's alive and takes that origami around with him to remind him of Nunnally, while he lives forever with CC.

If you really believe that Lelouch is dead, despite reading the above explanation, then I gladly tell you that you are wrong. You cannot call yourself a true fan. Please ruin some other anime.

If you believe the above explanation, I congratulate you on becoming an enlightened fan of Code Geass, one who is able to see the genius behind the whole series. I encourage you to copy this email, and send it to anyone who still doubts that Lelouch is alive.

....

Yeah. I. Um. *scratches head* Apparently he found me from a "LELOUCH IS ALIVE" video I commented on several months ago... uh.

I messaged him back and argued with him and stuff. And then he called me a conspiracy theorist.

...

o.0

Anyway. Yeah. Uh. I read a fanfic where Lelouch was used as some sort of battery charger for a Knightmare or something, after having become immortal. It was kind of awesome. There's something strangely hot about Lelouch being covered in his own blood...

[Narona]

I messaged him back and argued with him and stuff. And then he called me a conspiracy theorist.

...

o.0

Anyway. Yeah. Uh. I read a fanfic where Lelouch was used as some sort of battery charger for a Knightmare or something, after having become immortal. It was kind of awesome. There's something strangely hot about Lelouch being covered in his own blood...Once the writer, Okouchi, said that Lelouch is dead ; then the debate mostly ended. It's the main writer after all.

Arguing about him being brought to life again, imo, could make sense because Lelouch was dead and then came back. But arguing that he didn't die in the ep25 is really hard since Okouchi said it once and for all: Lelouch died.

[snowdevil_crow]

This person has claimed that "The directors are just lying, they've done it before so they're doing it again" among other things.

I just... I'm not sure if it's a troll or what. It's just so bizarre.

[Narona]

This person has claimed that "The directors are just lying, they've done it before so they're doing it again" among other things.

I just... I'm not sure if it's a troll or what. It's just so bizarre.

By "the directors", he means some other directors. Those people are not okouchi, nor Taniguchi. So that argument is wrong.

Maybe they will do it just like that, but till now, those two, but maybe i'm wrong, have not lied to their fans.

[snowdevil_crow]

No, he seriously claims that Okouchi and Taniguchi are lying.

And when I said "no, that would be pointless" he told me I'm a conspiracy theorist.

o.O

Because I remember that Nunnally was listed officially as dead, once, wasn't she? I don't know if Okouchi and Taniguchi were in charge of that, though. But in this case, there is really no reason, and anyway they'd had this planned since day one, apparently. So... yeah.

[Narona]

Because I remember that Nunnally was listed officially as dead, once, wasn't she? I don't know if Okouchi and Taniguchi were in charge of that, though. But in this case, there is really no reason, and anyway they'd had this planned since day one, apparently. So... yeah.On the official website, but the ones who were maintening it were not Okouchi, nor Taniguchi.

[snowdevil_crow]

ohh... kay, gotcha.

So, basically, this guy isn't just dead wrong, he's dead wrong x 2.

[Narona]

ohh... kay, gotcha.

So, basically, this guy isn't just dead wrong, he's dead wrong x 2.
The webmaster of the official site is at fault imo.

Now people can still argue that the CG staff sent the info to him, and that he updated the website with it.

But still, there's no proof of that. And this youtube guy is not smart enough to see that if you closely look at the episode in which Nunnally is supposed to have died, you can deduce clearly that she was not in the same shuttle. Many people like Kaio pointed that out here on AS at that time.

[Orga777]

Speaking of the possibility for a third series and Lelouch's alive or dead status... I had the most bizarre argument with someone on youtube about the "Lelouch is alive!" theory...

This guy just messages me out of the blue with... okay, copypaste of the message he sent to me:

I read your post and i know your tired of this argument, but if you will read the following i'm sure you'll be convinced.

Lelouch is alive, and I can prove it. Please ignore all other explanations or conclusions you have been told or have come to yourself for the next few moments. There is a combination of proof and logical assumptions included. If you think a conclusion or assumption you have come to or heard of is logical as well, please understand that I've heard them all, and these are still the MOST likely scenarios. No, Lelouch didn't die to create a perfect world. He faked his death to create a perfect world, AND be alive to ensure it's success. That is the true essence of Lelouch, he cheats, lies, controls, and manipulates in order to achieve his goals. His goal was a better world for nunally at first, then for all the people of the world. So he decieves the world into believing he was an evil person, and that he died. He made the world a better place, but didn't die like all the other characters in anime. That's why he's the greatest character in all of anime.

In Code Geass there are immortal beings who have the ability to grant people a "geass". Once those people master their geass to the full extent, they have the ability to kill the immortal by taking their Code. The Code is what grants immortality, and the ability to grant geass. If you do not agree, skip this explanation as you have not even payed attention to the anime, and your opinion holds no value.

1. Lelouch is immortal.
Lelouch became immortal when he went to the world of C the second time.
How?
His father was there, who had become immortal. Lelouch, who had used his geass many times had mastered it, and that's evident by his geass' spreading to his second eye. Because of this, he was able to steal his father's code, and essentially "kill" the emperor.

2. CC talks to Lelouch
CC talks to Lelouch in a scene after his death and the thoughts of his friends.
What?
When CC is on the cart, she talks a little bit, then tilts her head towards the driver, and says,"Right, Lelouch?". She was definitely talking to the driver, in that frustrating anime style that many viewers fail to recognize. CC is smiling when this whole thing happens, something she usually does ONLY when she's thinking/talking to Lelouch. Also, she's always emo all the other times in the anime. But because lelouch is immortal, he lives with CC just like he promised, and CC no longer has to want death, but can live to be with him forever.

3. How do you know that the driver is Lelouch?
Some people say CC is talking to the sky, or to heaven, where Lelouch is supposedly dead.
(To this I can only type LOL)
As mentioned in #2, CC is talking to the driver anime style. The driver can only be leouch. Why? Well, other than the fact that she called him Lelouch, the driver has his whole head concealed. Why would anyone do this in a peaceful world? The ONLY logical answer is that the driver is the hated emporer of late, Lelouch Vi Britannia.

4. Want hard evidence?
Some people still say all this is speculation, and that only the facts that CC is smiling and Charles was killed can be actual facts.
(Oh?)
Early in the anime series, Nunnally gives her brother Lelouch a pink origami crane, which was taught to her by the japanese maid. This origami crane can be found on the cart next to CC. You may say "it's CC's to remind her of Lelouch". But let's be logical. That crane was a special keepsake to Lelouch, and it's very very doubtful that he even showed it to anyone else beforehand. Logic dictates that he's alive and takes that origami around with him to remind him of Nunnally, while he lives forever with CC.

If you really believe that Lelouch is dead, despite reading the above explanation, then I gladly tell you that you are wrong. You cannot call yourself a true fan. Please ruin some other anime.

If you believe the above explanation, I congratulate you on becoming an enlightened fan of Code Geass, one who is able to see the genius behind the whole series. I encourage you to copy this email, and send it to anyone who still doubts that Lelouch is alive.

....

Yeah. I. Um. *scratches head* Apparently he found me from a "LELOUCH IS ALIVE" video I commented on several months ago... uh.

I messaged him back and argued with him and stuff. And then he called me a conspiracy theorist.

...

o.0

Anyway. Yeah. Uh. I read a fanfic where Lelouch was used as some sort of battery charger for a Knightmare or something, after having become immortal. It was kind of awesome. There's something strangely hot about Lelouch being covered in his own blood...

Hahahaha... that is the most inane argument ever. Not only is that the most common crap arguments that was common after Episode 25 Aired. That was nothing new, just more weak arguments.... Ooy.... And then he calls you a conspiracy theorist for taking what is shown on screen at face value while he is going all "grassy knoll!" on ya? XD lol...:heh:

[snowdevil_crow]

I think the best part was "the origami crane is hard factual proof" and how he tried to prove that.

I... wtf, that didn't even make sense. xD

@ Narona --- I was too busy going wtf over that episode to notice XD And, um, laughing at Lelouch's expression...

[azul120]

It would be a bad move because while he gets off scott free, everyone else he knows gets kicked in the face. Suzaku can't be himself anymore and is stuck behind a mask for the rest of his life. Nunnally has to live in a world where her beloved brother is gone and she would never know that he is alive and is stuck ruleing a superpower. Kallen will never be able to get her felings requeited and will never fully be able to move on from Lelouch and how much he changed her. And for these characters it is a bitter sweet ending. Having Lelouch live makes his sacrifice worthless in my eyes and any type of sympathy I had towards the character would probably evaporate. He was redeemed in my eyes because of his selfless death. Bringing him back will reverse my stance back to what it was before Zero Requeim.

Everyone else? There were a ton of people who got off scot free, the exceptions of course being the ones you mentioned. And I'm pretty sure Lelouch would be dumbfounded if he were to find himself resurrected.

[Narona]

@ Narona --- I was too busy going wtf over that episode to notice XD And, um, laughing at Lelouch's expression...
I didn't notice it either the first time that I watched it. But since that time, that youtube guy should be aware of what I was talking about.

[Charred Knight]

No, he seriously claims that Okouchi and Taniguchi are lying.

And when I said "no, that would be pointless" he told me I'm a conspiracy theorist.

o.O

Because I remember that Nunnally was listed officially as dead, once, wasn't she? I don't know if Okouchi and Taniguchi were in charge of that, though. But in this case, there is really no reason, and anyway they'd had this planned since day one, apparently. So... yeah.

His not a troll

His an idiot

Simply put even ignoring the Guide, and Okouchi's interviews the actions Lelouch X C.C shippers give (and nearly all of them are that) are simply not things Lelouch would do.

Lelouch would never abandon Nunnaly, and Kallen so he can have sex with C.C in the hayloft. Oh sure they claim that "Lelouch will watch over mankind for repentance" but it's pretty clear that what they really want is for their favorite couple to be made official.

On the other hand Lelouch's actions as given by the Guide makes perfect sense. Lelouch despises his actions, he despises himself, he hates what he did to innocent people who where just doing their job. So he sets it up that when he dies the world is made a better place. Lelouch didn't die just to make the world a better place, he commited assisted suicide to repent for all he did.

His not Jesus Christ no matter how much his fanbase wants him to be.

[snowdevil_crow]

ugh, seriously, people like that give us LuluCC-lovers such a bad name. :/

I wonder if they even paid attention to Lelouch's character at all.

[Narona]

Simply put even ignoring the Guide, and Okouchi's interviews the actions Lelouch X C.C shippers give (and nearly all of them are that) are simply not things Lelouch would do.
Saying that just like that is mere trolling about c.c.xlelouch fans.

If you can't provide any proof about what you say, just don't say it.

[Laurcus]

We've already established that i'm crazy for sure but that youtube guy is bonkers lol. The crane being used as hard evidence is just stupid Nunnaly showed C.C. how to make them paper cranes in the first season. So one could simply counter argue that C.C. made the crane, and maybe the cart driver was wearing a wide brimmed straw hat to cover his head because it was sunny out lol. I would like to think Lelouch is alive, and i feel that if you just take the series as is with no guide book or words from writer interviews then you could make the case for he is alive. Either way i still want to know how a code transfer happens, and if Lelouch didn't become immortal then what stopped the code transfer from taking place? As far as I know all of the "known" conditions were met.

[Charred Knight]

Saying that just like that is mere trolling about c.c.xlelouch fans.

If you can't provide any proof about what you say, just don't say it.

I don't remember a single holdout that wasn't a C.C X Lelouch shipper. Frankly I could care less what you ship, I care more about your opinion on the show itself.

[Nogitsune]

I don't remember a single holdout that wasn't a C.C X Lelouch shipper.

I know quite a few from German forums... where people somehow don't seem to care all that much about shipping.
So it's no surprise I have no idea what most of them ship, but I only recognized some shounen-ai lovers and "don't really care about pairings" people amongst the "I still don't think he's dead" fans.
And then there's me, who acknowledges the Word of God, but still thinks the ending looks open as hell and therefore pats those people on the shoulder if they have interesting arguments. xD

[bladeofdarkness]

thats something i dont really understand
why do people keep saying that its an open ending (or at least that it looks like one)
lelouch has a death scene that lasts for around 5 whole minutes
including an "its a wonderful life, flashback"
a full on explantion about how his death is only the beginning
famus last words
and a whole "dying in the arms of your loved ones" shtick
i dont think i have ever seen a more definitive death scene in my life

and yet people say that it looks like its an open ending ?

[Nogitsune]

thats something i dont really understand
why do people keep saying that its an open ending (or at least that it looks like one)
lelouch has a death scene that lasts for around 5 whole minutes
including an "its a wonderful life, flashback"
a full on explantion about how his death is only the beginning
famus last words
and a whole "dying in the arms of your loved ones" shtick
i dont think i have ever seen a more definitive death scene in my life

and yet people say that it looks like its an open ending ?

Let's see... we have immortals (and Charles was touching Lelouch when he disappeared)... Nunally gets strange flashbacks... C.C. is dragging a crane around instead of a chess piece (not that that's prove or anything, but if it had been the black king, the ending wouldn't look open to me anymore xD), and she randomly talks to Lelouch.
The latter was bound to get fans speculating.
And when I watched it for the first time, I couldn't help but feel that the ending left a loophole on purpose. I secretly blame Kaori Yuki - I've read too many of her open endings.

[bladeofdarkness]

but the death scene was definitive
it couldnt be any more clear that its a DEATH scene :heh:

[Nogitsune]

but the death scene was definitive
it couldnt be any more clear that its a DEATH scene :heh:

Tell that to Kaori Yuki. xD
Not if you have immortals around.

[demon_god04]

Except that you lose Geass if you take the code, so we know Lelouch did not take Charles' code and C.C appears to still have hers at the end. Using that as your sole justification is like saying that there are vegetarians around so Lelouch is a vegetarian.

[snowdevil_crow]

There's room for speculation that one can still use Geass if they take the Code from someone other than the person who gave them Geass, but it's just that --- speculation. We don't know enough about how the whole Code-transfer works to be conclusive about it either way.

That said, everything else points to "nah, he's really dead". The dramatic death-scene, the shadows under his eyes (both indicative of 'dead, really dead, no seriously he's GONE' in this anime), Lelouch's character towards the end, and staff interviews... everything. There's still some ambiguity there, but it's hardly concrete fact.

[bladeofdarkness]

There's room for speculation that one can still use Geass if they take the Code from someone other than the person who gave them Geass, but it's just that --- speculation. We don't know enough about how the whole Code-transfer works to be conclusive about it either way.

That said, everything else points to "nah, he's really dead". The dramatic death-scene, the shadows under his eyes (both indicative of 'dead, really dead, no seriously he's GONE' in this anime), Lelouch's character towards the end, and staff interviews... everything. There's still some ambiguity there, but it's hardly concrete fact.

concrete fact ?
its not even concrete ambiguity :heh:

[Nogitsune]

Maybe there was never room for speculation even without the Word of God, and the people who still try to convince those who refuse to even listen to them simply love wasting their time.
I mean, there are some people who claim that the notion that Lelouch might have become immortal was ridiculous from the very start, yet they are usually the ones who just can't let the topic go.
If the ending really was so completely clear, then it would be like half of the fanbase insisting that Lelouch was really a girl, and the rest writing whole novels about why that's an unbelievable stupid idea.
So... yeah. I have said everything I had to say on the topic and more, so I'll now go back to being a more or less silent, very amused observer.
It's good to not really care either way (even though I'd have liked Okouchi leaving me my 0,1% chance of Lelouch being a live, simply for the feeling and because I prefer Taniguchi's "not spelling everything out and leaving people to their own interpretation" policy).
Yep, being a fangirl is fun.

[youngde]

Well, as far as I'm concerned the ending was ambiguous when it aired because there was always the chance that Lelouch did some crazy Geass/Code/Immortal thing and survived. As far as him not leaving Kallen/Nunally, with Lelouch's screwed up logic he may think they would be better without him, and it's his responsibility to do the whole 'watch the world from the shadows' thing. As for leaving Suzaku as Zero for the rest of his life, let's just face it, Suzaku would punish himself the rest of his life regardless; at least Lelouch would have given him a punishment that would be useful.

Still, the writer says he's dead. I suppose Lelouch could be 'dead' while L.L. is alive (and that's certainly how they would probably spin it if it happens), but I'm pretty sure at this point, the original ending of the story was to have him dead and stay dead (barring the will of SUNRISE). At any rate, the writer also said that Lelouch and C.C. weren't lovers, and I think most would agree that Lelouch wouldn't go living happily ever after w/ her even if she were.

youngde, signing off.

P.S., I noticed something weird on AS airing of CG last night. At the point when Lelouch tells Kallen to live, they show her noticing, but then the moment when she yells at the BKs to wait before Rolo bursts in was cut for some reason. I mean, why? Is scheduling so tight that they need to cut 2 seconds of the episode to make it fit? Doesn't make sense to me.

[incorrupts]

P.S., I noticed something weird on AS airing of CG last night. At the point when Lelouch tells Kallen to live, they show her noticing, but then the moment when she yells at the BKs to wait before Rolo bursts in was cut for some reason. I mean, why? Is scheduling so tight that they need to cut 2 seconds of the episode to make it fit? Doesn't make sense to me.
Actually, the moment Kallen screams "wait", is after Toudou orders to shoot the Shinkirou too. Rolo has already entered the BK-fest hallway. 8D

[calvinguy]

In regards to whether Lelouch is alive or not, it could go either way. The directors ended the series in a very clever way, they did declare that Lelouch is dead, but they also did leave enough evidence leading up to his death that could show that he did survive.

Lets go back to when Charles was about to die, the directors could have just let Charles die like Marianne, but instead they show him having physical contact with Lelouch before he actually dissapeared. Charles may or may not have transfered the code to Lelouch, but because he did have physical contact, it leaves this idea open.

The directors also leave other clues such as Orange smiling when Lelouch is about to be killed, for someone who is so loyal to Lelouch, why would he be smiling when his master is about to die? Maybe he's smiling becuase Lelouch is finally able to acomplish what he wanted, and he is geniunely happy helping Lelouch achieve this. Or he could be happy becuase he knows that Lelouch isn't actually going to die. Again the fact that the directors decided to do this leaves this idea open.

Another example would be the ending where C.C is riding on the wagon, they could have simply shown the wagon drivers face, but instead they decide to leave his face hidden. This was definitely done deliberately. There are also a bunch of smaller clues such as the paper crane or the images seen by nunnally when she touched Lelouchs hands.

I know that the interviews claim that Lelouch is dead, but they could just turn it around and say that Lelouch in name is dead. He loses his name, his friends, family, his lifestyle and has to live a secluded life as someone else.

The directors could have killed Lelouch off and left us with no hope, but they choose to leave small subtle hints. Doing this they leave room for a 3rd season if they wanted to, or if they don't then Lelouch can stay dead and its no big deal.

The 3rd season could even be with completely different characters in a different time frame with Lelouch and C.C having just a brief appearance (since they would be immortal) and I'm sure all the fans would be happy. This way they don't have to drag on Lelouch's story.

Well after having said all that, Lelouch will most likely remain dead and a 3rd season won't happen, but hey its definitely not impossible.

[Kakashi]

but the death scene was definitive
it couldnt be any more clear that its a DEATH scene :heh:

They want you to believe that!

But he will be in the new Spice and Wolf, it was confirmed

[bladeofdarkness]

maybe they should have had him crap his pants when he died
according to southpark thats the only way to completely confirm death :heh:

[Haak]

Could someone please translate this?:
http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/3955/000dhwrrjy1.jpg

And yes, it is to do with Lelouch.

[Betteroffer]

If da' corpse didn't sh*t,
Don't bury it!

[FruitsPunchSamurai]

Okay who ever brought up up this subject of Lelouch being alive all I can say is this "Why in god's name would you wan to destroy the significance the ending brought by having him being alive?" Just let it go, he's dead confirmed by the staff on two separate occasions while Taniguichi is still ambiguous just to milk the franchise but think of the logic of the situation, Lelouch died in front of millions more or less afterward his body was carried to an autopsy and then buried, for him to manage to escape from a coffin beneath 10ft of dirt is impossible and no neither Jeremiah or Sayoko would not dig him up because they all seem contempt with his fate in the last Picture Drama, speaking of which what's the point in even making it the last one when Lelouch can be revived so easily thus destroying another sound moment. I always consider the ending to be the best part in R2 and saved it from becoming a disaster, still a trainwreck though, so I'm confused as to why fans would want him alive after all that's happened.

[bladeofdarkness]

I'm with FruitsPunchSamurai
lelouch being alive ruins the ending
the fact that he died in the end for the sake of the plan is what made me like him again after seeing what an absolute ass he had become during the final arc

[Orga777]

You guys are still argueing over Lelouch being dead or alive? Ooy... He is dead folks, and it is better that way.

[Kid Ying]

I think a resurrection would ruin the ending if Lelouch planned to be alive. If something else saved him, i don't think it would do anything. The whole point of it it's his sacrifice, and he did that. If, Rolo reappeared as a cyborg(well, it could happen and we know it :heh:) and saved him or something like that, it wouldn't ruin the ending, Lelouch is alive, but he still sacrificed himself and it's not his fault that Cyborg Rolo was there to save him.

The main problem is: Why they would resurrect him? I don't think of a good reason except for milking the franchise, so let him have his rest cause the guy deserved it.

[bladeofdarkness]

"thus ends the tale of lelouch vi britannia"
"but the story of mankind is a never ending war for survival"
"and war... war never changes" :heh:
rep for the first person to say where its from (should be easy)

[azul120]

Could someone please translate this?:
http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/3955/000dhwrrjy1.jpg

And yes, it is to do with Lelouch.

Shirley! SHIRLEY!

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm fine with Lelouch dying in the end. What I'm not alright with, as you can probably tell, is with some of the people who were responsible with the mess in the first place to begin with getting off scot free and apparently without a lick of repentance. Now I don't believe in an eye for an eye, but it is a little unfair.

[Orga777]

Shirley! SHIRLEY!

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm fine with Lelouch dying in the end. What I'm not alright with, as you can probably tell, is with some of the people who were responsible with the mess in the first place to begin with getting off scot free and apparently without a lick of repentance. Now I don't believe in an eye for an eye, but it is a little unfair.

Okay, who that started this mess got off scott-free? Suzaku has one pretty cruel punishment IMO. Schneizel is Geassed. Charles, V.V., and Marianna are all dead. And C.C. is still alive to roam the world for eternity unable to get what she truely wanted.

So... who is left?

[azul120]

Cornelia and Guilford, both of whom live happily ever after, (arguably) Gino, and if you must, Villetta.

And the only thing Suzaku did to start it all was to kill his father in order to put an end to the war, but that he did with the best of intentions, even if it was a pretty retarded thing to do.

[bladeofdarkness]

Cornelia and Guilford, both of whom live happily ever after, (arguably) Gino, and if you must, Villetta.

And the only thing Suzaku did to start it all was to kill his father in order to put an end to the war, but that he did with the best of intentions, even if it was a pretty retarded thing to do.

not a single one of the people you mentioned have any part in the start of the conflict
they were born as britannian and fought for their home land for the same reason that kallen and toudo fought for theirs

[azul120]

not a single one of the people you mentioned have any part in the start of the conflict
they were born as britannian and fought for their home land for the same reason that kallen and toudo fought for theirs

They fought on behalf of the whole Social Darwinist spiel though, and were evidently responsible for the colonization of Japan, among other areas. That part was inexcusable.

[Orga777]

Cornelia and Guilford, both of whom live happily ever after, (arguably) Gino, and if you must, Villetta.

And the only thing Suzaku did to start it all was to kill his father in order to put an end to the war, but that he did with the best of intentions, even if it was a pretty retarded thing to do.

As blade, said, what did Guilford and Cornelia or even Gino and Villetta do that started anything?

They fought on behalf of the whole Social Darwinist spiel though, and were evidently responsible for the colonization of Japan, among other areas. That part was inexcusable.

So for following direct orders for your own country's foundation make them wrong and at fault? Wow, every single soldier on the planet should be punished then. *rolls eyes* Leadership is at fault. Not them.

[bladeofdarkness]

They fought on behalf of the whole Social Darwinist spiel though. That part was inexcusable.

they are born and raised in a country that follows that spiel and has done so for god only knows how long (even the emperor is selected by such a process)
and this country also happens to be the most powerful on earth
maybe someone sold them on the idea that this system actually WORKS
all of them earned positions of power by following it
had lelouch not been exiled when he was 8 he would likely have turned out the same

[azul120]

they are born and raised in a country that follows that spiel and has done so for god only knows how long (even the emperor is selected by such a process)
and this country also happens to be the most powerful on earth
maybe someone sold them on the idea that this system actually WORKS
all of them earned positions of power by following it
had lelouch not been exiled when he was 8 he would likely have turned out the same

It was at the meeting between his father and him prior to the exile that Lelouch declared he wanted no part of that system, because of what happened to his mother and the response he was given.

And those who I noted that were part of the system seemed to enjoy what they did quite a bit. And when it came to Cornelia, she snapped when Euphie declared Suzaku her knight, telling her that Britannia was about discrimination. (Not to mention that her ruthlessness went so far as her even having little consideration for hostages.)

So for following direct orders for your own country's foundation make them wrong and at fault? Wow, every single soldier on the planet should be punished then. *rolls eyes* Leadership is at fault. Not them.

I know I'm instigating Godwin's Law here, but tell that to the people who were in favor of punishing the Nazi participants.

[Orga777]

It was at the meeting between his father and him prior to the exile that Lelouch declared he wanted no part of that system, because of what happened to his mother and the response he was given.

And those who I noted that were part of the system seemed to enjoy what they did quite a bit. And when it came to Cornelia, she snapped when Euphie declared Suzaku her knight, telling her that Britannia was about discrimination. (Not to mention that her ruthlessness went so far as her even having little consideration for hostages.)

lol... So, you don't get what being raised in such an environment does to people? Of course there were biases, that is what happens when you are raised by 1) Nobles who look down on people lesser than you, and 2) Britannian Royal Family who have to fight to SURVIVE. It has nothing to do with wants. It has everything to do with being raised in an environment that is "We are better than everything else, so it is okay for us to do this." That was Britannia. To them they have the right to do such things so it doesn't feel as wrong. But again, the country was FOUNDED on those beliefs. It had mroe to do with national Pride and wanting to see your side come out victoriously than anything else in the case of underlings to the leadership which was the real problem.

I know I'm instigating Godwin's Law here, but tell that to the people who were in favor of punishing the Nazi participants.

Remember this, The Nazi's were not true for the entire German military. It was a group in said military and the LEADERSHIP that were the problem again. Not the German military.

[Nogitsune]

So now people who have been raised in a bad environment and/or are just following orders are not responsible for their actions anymore? That's what it sounds like to me, and even though I'm the last person who will scream for (pointless) punishment, I highly disagree.
Everyone is responsible for their actions. They can have reasons for being twisted and change over time like it was often the case in Code Geass, but they're still not any more innocent than Lelouch or Suzaku. So if those two "deserved" punishment - which I don't believe - then people like Cornelia, Viletta and really almost everyone but Euphie do, too.
And for Lelouch having turned out just like everyone else had he stayed in Britannia... I also disagree. Had his mother not been killed, he would probably have been a lot less ready to spill blood.
If Clovis managed to stay "kind" for ~21 years before he went to Area 11, Lelouch sure as hell would have managed to do the same. And more, seeing how Lelouch had other priorities than fanboying his favourite little brother.

[azul120]

What Nogitsune said. If you're gonna say that Lelouch's tragic past is no excuse for the damage he did as Zero, you're obligated to say the same for the Britannians and how they were brought up.

[Orga777]

So now people who have been raised in a bad environment and/or are just following orders are not responsible for their actions anymore? That's what it sounds like to me, and even though I'm the last person who will scream for (pointless) punishment, I highly disagree.

If you read back, that isn't what I am saying. National Pride is what they were fighting for. They didn't START the mess, which was what the whole point was in the first place. It was the Leadership that started it and the Leadership that was more at fault. Because punishing say, Cornelia and Guilford which were practically nothing more than soldiers in a war, makes no sense. If that was the case, every single soldier in every single nation should also have the same punishments for fighting in what they believed to be right. Soldiers aren't always policy makers.

And there were racists Japanese in the show just as much as there were racsist Britannians. And killing is killing so...

If Clovis managed to stay "kind" for ~21 years before he went to Area 11, Lelouch sure as hell would have managed to do the same. And more, seeing how Lelouch had other priorities than fanboying his favourite little brother.

Right.... his reasons were for fanboying his little sister.:rolleyes:
Oh, and revenge. Don't forget revenge. More revenge part than the rest of the stuff he preached. He didn't start to believe that Peace was worth shit to him till a quarter of the way through Season 2. He was ready to give up everything because Nunnally was on the Britannian side after all.

[Nogitsune]

If you read back, that isn't what I am saying. National Pride is what they were fighting for. They didn't START the mess, which was what the whole point was in the first place. It was the Leadership that started it and the Leadership that was more at fault. Because punishing say, Cornelia and Guilford which were practically nothing more than soldiers in a war, makes no sense. If that was the case, every single soldier in every single nation should also have the same standards of fighting for what they believed to be right. Soldiers aren't always policy makers.

Hm... all right. But as I see it, Cornelia is a leader.
The whole "those who started it" thing doesn't make any sense to me, seeing how you can trace it back to people like an immortal nun and put all the blame on them.
Human nature started everything. V.V. started everything. Charles and Marianne started everything. Suzaku's father started everything.
Lelouch comes quite late on the list. As he and Suzaku said, it's a chain of hatred. It only exists because people give in to their feelings and/or enviroment.
Lelouch did that and he caused a lot of tragedy. But just because other people didn't think for themselves or failed to have such a great impact doesn't mean they're "better" than him - I'm with azul there. Either the circumstances count for everyone or for no one.


Right.... his reasons were for fanboying his little sister.:rolleyes:
Oh, and revenge. Don't forget revenge. More revenge part than the rest of the stuff he preached. He didn't start to believe that till a quarter of the way through Season 2 that Peace was worth shit to him. He was ready to give up everything because Nunnally was on the Britannian side.

Yeah, but that wasn't my point.
I actually love characters with a sibling complex, and I don't mind that neither Lelouch nor Clovis are saints.
However, Clovis' whole sense of right and wrong was nothing compared to his love for his brother, whereas Lelouch puts a lot more thought into his believes.

[bladeofdarkness]

lelouch said it himself
shnizel was an extraordinery person who's fault was that he had been raised and always lived as a royal prince
he did not see the world and the people in it as lelouch had the chance to
and shnizel was a hell of alot better then his other brothers and sisters becouse he at least saw the wrong doing in his country's way of doing things and was trying to end it (albit in an extreme way)
the difference between lelouch and shnizel was that lelouch was present to see how people were
how they always tried to fight for happiness no matter how bad things were
if shnizel had met people like sheirly kallen and suzaku he might have turned out more like lelouch
and by contrast, had lelouch NOT met them and saw them fighting against the odds in search of happiness, he would have turned out more like shnizel (if he was lucky)

[Orga777]

Hm... all right. But as I see it, Cornelia is a leader.

No. Cornelia is not much of a policy maker. She is more "Give me a gun and point me to where to shoot." She is a warrior through and through. She may have been born into the Royal Family, but she lacks the Political skills that make Schneizel, Lelouch, and even Euphie great at changing things. Cornelia is a leader on a Battlefield, like a General. Not a leader in the Political Court to change things like her other siblings.

The whole "those who started it" thing doesn't make any sense to me, seeing how you can trace it back to people like an immortal nun and put all the blame on them.

No. You see, azul said that he is not happy that Lelouch died while others that started everything got off scott free. I came back by saying "who got off scott free? Schneizel, C.C., Charles and friends, and Suzaku all got punished pretty much." And he brought up Britannian soldiers that had nothing to do with what was going on except fighting for their country. Which started this whole discussion we have now.

[Charred Knight]

As blade, said, what did Guilford and Cornelia or even Gino and Villetta do that started anything?



So for following direct orders for your own country's foundation make them wrong and at fault? Wow, every single soldier on the planet should be punished then. *rolls eyes* Leadership is at fault. Not them.

because they didn't start the thing, they are excused of war crimes?

Thank God you where not in charge of the trials after World War II

In the Nuremberg Trials Cornellia would have been executed for War Crimes

Some others that got off scott free

Nina: built the FLEIJA bomb that killed more than 10 million people, destroyed both Tokyo, and Pendragon and Lelouch might have used it to make him look worse than Charles, and if Lelouch used it who knows how many people died.

Ougi: Incompetent member of the Black Knights, betrayed Zero and then betrayed the UFN, and sold both out to Schneizel. Was rewarded for these actions.

[Nogitsune]

if shnizel had met people like sheirly kallen and suzaku he might have turned out more like lelouch
and by contrast, had lelouch NOT met them and saw them fighting against the odds in search of happiness, he would have turned out more like shnizel (if he was lucky)

Lelouch and Schneizel are not the same person.
The only things they really have in common are their intelligence and noble goals. So from my point of view, I could as well claim Lelouch would have turned into Yagami Light out of sheer boredom had he lived an ordinary life from the start.
Schneizel is a sociopath, Lelouch is not. Lelouch had Marianne as a mother and Nunally as a sister, Schneizel did not.
Even if they'd been incredibly similar when they were born, their experiences would have shaped them into two completely different people.
Maybe Cornelia would have been more like Euphie had she been born after her. Maybe Clovis could have become an awesome politican had Lelouch stayed in Britannia. Maybe V.V. would have been more like Lelouch had Charles been more like Nunally.
We'll never know.

Edit:
Also, I think a Lelouch with a living Marianne and a completely healthy Nunally would be a lot less... violent, and even a pretty "righteous" person. But again, we'll never know.

No. Cornelia is not much of a policy maker. She is more "Give me a gun and point me to where to shoot." She is a warrior through and through. She may have been born into the Royal Family, but she lacks the Political skills that make Schneizel, Lelouch, and even Euphie great at changing things. Cornelia is a leader on a Battlefield, like a General. Not a leader in the Political Court to change things like her other siblings.

In that case, Clovis is an innocent little lamb. The poor guy despised politics and refused to learn how to pilot a Knightmare.
He certainly isn't a leader.
However, you yourself said that Cornelia is a military leader. And that's also a great rensponsibility.


No. You see, azul said that he is not happy that Lelouch died while others that started everything got off scott free. I came back by saying "who got off scott free? Schneizel, C.C., Charles and friends, and Suzaku all got punished pretty much." And he brought up Britannian soldiers that had nothing to do with what was going on except fighting for their country. Which started this whole discussion we have now.

Hm... this forum is full of twists and turns. I like it. xD

[azul120]

However, you yourself said that Cornelia is a military leader. And that's also a great rensponsibility.

On top of that, she embodied the "killing is my business, and business is good" maxim to a degree.

[Orga777]

because they didn't start the thing, they are excused of war crimes?

Thank God you where not in charge of the trials after World War II

In the Nuremberg Trials Cornellia would have been executed for War Crimes

Oh? So we tried every single German soldier and officer that served during WWII? No? Didn't think so... There was a vast difference between "Nazi" and "German Soldier" during WWII. Didn't I already go through this? And when did Cornelia, Guilford, etc. participate in true mass genocide? The only Britannian to truely do that intentionally was Clovis and that was because he freaked out and paniced about C.C. getting out. And he died so...

Nina: built the FLEIJA bomb that killed more than 10 million people, destroyed both Tokyo, and Pendragon and Lelouch might have used it to make him look worse than Charles, and if Lelouch used it who knows how many people died.

Yes, I will give you Nina....... Although she ended up redeeming herself. It would be like saying the Manhatten Project people should have all been shot and killed though so...

Ougi: Incompetent member of the Black Knights, betrayed Zero and then betrayed the UFN, and sold both out to Schneizel. Was rewarded for these actions.

Worked with Schneizel and betrayed the UFN? The same UFN that was working with Schneizel? Please. And as far as Ougi and the other BKs were concerned, Zero betrayed them first.

Lelouch and Schneizel are not the same person.

Yes and no.

The only things they really have in common are their intelligence and noble goals. So from my point of view, I could as well claim Lelouch would have turned into Yagami Light out of sheer boredom had he lived an ordinary life from the start.

Yes... because becomming Light is such a GREAT thing to do... Talk about being a true sociopath...

Schneizel is a sociopath, Lelouch is not. Lelouch had Marianne as a mother and Nunally as a sister, Schneizel did not.

Surely you jest right? Lelouch gained a conscence LATER. When did Lelouch ever give a flying shit about anyone unless it happened to someone close to him or himself? ZILCH is how much. He didn't give a shit about using people as pawns in his little scheme of revenge. Sacrifical pawns at that. Lelouch cared as little about human life as his brother did before over half way into Season 2.

Even if they'd been incredibly similar when they were born, their experiences would have shaped them into two completely different people.

I agree. There experiences did turn them into different people. But Lelouch and Schneizel are two sides of the same coin. They are the same, but different at the same time.

However, you yourself said that Cornelia is a military leader. And that's also a great rensponsibility.

It is. And besides trying to calm down rebellions and terrorism in a Britannian colony, what did she really do wrong? You can argue all you want that they shouldn't have been there to begin with, but the fact remains that when a soldier is ordered by the Monarchy of a Totaltarian regeim, they will do it as their Emperor commands. It would be like faulting every single German soldier and officer that fought in WWII just because they were German even though they had little to nothing to do with either genocide or mass take-overs besides, again, fighting for their country.

[morbosfist]

And when did Cornelia, Guilford, etc. participate in true mass genocide? The only Britannian to truely do that intentionally was Clovis and that was because he freaked out and paniced about C.C. getting out. And he died so...Stage 7, and as bait for Zero no less. Clovis you can excuse as a knee-jerk reaction to an extent. Cornelia did it willfully.

[Orga777]

Stage 7, and as bait for Zero no less. Clovis you can excuse as a knee-jerk reaction to an extent. Cornelia did it willfully.

Oh yeah... I totally forgot about that... XD
So yes, I guess I can conceed Cornelia on that account.

[azul120]

Worked with Schneizel and betrayed the UFN? The same UFN that was working with Schneizel? Please. And as far as Ougi and the other BKs were concerned, Zero betrayed them first.

He was referring to R2 19/20. Had that never happened, Lelouch would probably not have needed to go through such means in achieving his final goal of recreating the world.

Surely you jest right? Lelouch gained a conscence LATER. When did Lelouch ever give a flying shit about anyone unless it happened to someone close to him or himself? ZILCH is how much. He didn't give a shit about using people as pawns in his little scheme of revenge. Sacrifical pawns at that. Lelouch cared as little about human life as his brother did before over half way into Season 2.

That was true at times, but not all the time.

I agree. There experiences did turn them into different people. But Lelouch and Schneizel are two sides of the same coin. They are the same, but different at the same time.

Except Schneizel had a tendency of looking down on other people.

It is. And besides trying to calm down rebellions and terrorism in a Britannian colony, what did she really do wrong? You can argue all you want that they shouldn't have been there to begin with, but the fact remains that when a soldier is ordered by the Monarchy of a Totaltarian regeim, they will do it as their Emperor commands. It would be like faulting every single German soldier and officer that fought in WWII just because they were German even though they had little to nothing to do with either genocide or mass take-overs besides, again, fighting for their country.

Didn't it ever occur to them to consider why they were being rebelled against? Besides, how can you give them a free pass here while accusing Lelouch about not giving a lick about using people as his pawns, given that the people here were constantly looked down on as well, in arguably worse ways at times? It doesn't make sense.

[morbosfist]

Worked with Schneizel and betrayed the UFN? The same UFN that was working with Schneizel? Please. And as far as Ougi and the other BKs were concerned, Zero betrayed them first.As azul notes, it refers to episode 19/20, where the UFN is not working with Schneizel but this one faction of the Black Knights is doing their own thing and lying to their benefactors about it. Regardless of what they believe, they acted without consulting anyone then covered it up.

[Orga777]

He was referring to R2 19/20. Had that never happened, Lelouch would probably not have needed to go through such means in achieving his final goal of recreating the world.

I know what he was reffering to. The point was that Ougi and the BKs felt betrayed first.

That was true at times, but not all the time.

Meh. That is true. But it still happened more times than not.

Except Schneizel had a tendency of looking down on other people.

Schneizel didn't look down on people as much as he failed to understand people. There is a difference. Looking down on someone is seeing them as inferior. I never really got that vibe from Schneizel.

Didn't it ever occur to them to consider why they were being rebelled against? Besides, how can you give them a free pass here while accusing Lelouch about not giving a lick about using people as his pawns, given that the people here were constantly looked down on as well, in arguably worse ways at times? It doesn't make sense.

I am not arguing that the Britannian philosphy wasn't wrong. Because it was. But the fact remains that they were still doing as they felt was right for their nation as a whole. Usually conquests lead by other nations don't result in happiness from the ones being taken over. As shown through history. But throwing soldiers under the bus for fighting for what they believe in and fighting for the nation that they grew up in, is nonsense no matter what side of the conflict they are on. Which is all I am trying to get across. Blame the leadership. They were the cause of it all. Don't blame the soldiers who had little to do with it.

[azul120]

I know what he was reffering to. The point was that Ougi and the BKs felt betrayed first.

Because they let themselves get duped by Schneizel.

Schneizel didn't look down on people as much as he failed to understand people. There is a difference. Looking down on someone is seeing them as inferior. I never really got that vibe from Schneizel.

Good point.

I am not arguing that the Britannian philosphy wasn't wrong. Because it was. But the fact remains that they were still doing as they felt was right for their nation as a whole. Usually conquests lead by other nations don't result in happiness from the ones being taken over. As shown through history. But throwing soldiers under the bus for fighting for what they believe in and fighting for the nation that they grew up in, is nonsense no matter what side of the conflict they are on. Which is all I am trying to get across. Blame the leadership. They were the cause of it all. Don't blame the soldiers who had little to do with it.

True. Which is why I didn't hold it too much against Suzaku circa S1 for instance, because he was caught between his duty and his ideals at times. (Though it can be said he should have known what he was signing up for.) I'm just concentrating my criticism on the people who were in leadership positions.

[bladeofdarkness]

Lelouch and Schneizel are not the same person.
The only things they really have in common are their intelligence and noble goals. So from my point of view, I could as well claim Lelouch would have turned into Yagami Light out of sheer boredom had he lived an ordinary life from the start.
Schneizel is a sociopath, Lelouch is not. Lelouch had Marianne as a mother and Nunally as a sister, Schneizel did not.


Schneizel isnt a sociopath
sociopath's are incapable of understanding that there are other people beside themselves and only care about their own wish's
Schneizel is the complete oppesite of that
he has no desires of his own and does everything for the benifit of OTHER PEOPLE
his entire plan is ment as a way to bring peace and end the suffering and war that he had seen raging in the world his entire life
the only problem is that, since he spent his life high up from the POV of royalty
he doesnt see the people as closely as lelouch did
he sees them as a symbol more then as living breathing human beings with hopes and dreams etc
he wants to help them, and his entire goal is to make their lives better
but becouse he doesnt know them on a personal level, he has attachment to them in the way that lelouch does
hence, he doesnt mind killing a billion of them if it means the other 5 benifit from it
he sees people as numbers on paper
and this stems from his detachment from them rather then a mental illness

had lelouch NOT had the chance to meet all the people he had and see for himself how the struggle for happiness in the face of despir, he would have turned out like Schneizel
and thats if he is lucky enough to come to learn about how fucked up the world really is in the first place
dont forget that having marianne for a mother is not such a great deal
both she and charles also view people as a minor thing
only their disconcern stems from their plan to unite all human minds together, and hence dont care about their actual lives
thats why they didnt even care all that much about their own children

[Nogitsune]

Yes... because becomming Light is such a GREAT thing to do... Talk about being a true sociopath...

I'm not sure I get your point. I never said Light was an awesome person - just that he's not any more Lelouch than Schneizel is.

Surely you jest right? Lelouch gained a conscence LATER. When did Lelouch ever give a flying shit about anyone unless it happened to someone close to him or himself? ZILCH is how much. He didn't give a shit about using people as pawns in his little scheme of revenge. Sacrifical pawns at that. Lelouch cared as little about human life as his brother did before over half way into Season 2.

Actually, the whole point of Lelouch's character was that his twisted past made him into the not-so-considerate person he was at the beginning of the anime.
However, he feels much more strongly than Schneizel does.

I agree. There experiences did turn them into different people. But Lelouch and Schneizel are two sides of the same coin. They are the same, but different at the same time.

If there are two sides of the same coin with Lelouch, then the other side of said coin would be Suzaku.
In fact, I would go so far as to say that had Lelouch's mother not been murdered, he would have turned out a lot more like season 1 Suzaku, just without the psychological issues and much more logical.

It is. And besides trying to calm down rebellions and terrorism in a Britannian colony, what did she really do wrong? You can argue all you want that they shouldn't have been there to begin with, but the fact remains that when a soldier is ordered by the Monarchy of a Totaltarian regeim, they will do it as their Emperor commands. It would be like faulting every single German soldier and officer that fought in WWII just because they were German even though they had little to nothing to do with either genocide or mass take-overs besides, again, fighting for their country.

Besides what was already said, I have no problem with Cornelia. I just think she is as much responsible for her own actions as Lelouch is.


Stage 7, and as bait for Zero no less. Clovis you can excuse as a knee-jerk reaction to an extent. Cornelia did it willfully.

Actually, I'd say Clovis' only excuse is that he simply didn't care, which isn't a good excuse at all, but for several reasons makes him even more likeable to me.
Clovis may have been shocked and usually not been inclined to wipe out a Ghetto for fun, but I doubt he would have lost any sleep over it. He disregarded those people's life because he didn't give a damn about anything but his family, life and art anymore.


Schneizel isnt a sociopath
sociopath's are incapable of understanding that there are other people beside themselves and only care about their own wish's

I haven't met enough sociopaths to either concede the point or completely disagree, but I think as with all psychological disorders, there are different levels and kinds of sociopaths.
Schneizel only experiences superficial emotions, which, as far as I know, is also true for a socipath. Maybe the term is still not correct, but it comes closer than anything else I can think of, and my point stays the same.

had lelouch NOT had the chance to meet all the people he had and see for himself how the struggle for happiness in the face of despir, he would have turned out like Schneizel
and thats if he is lucky enough to come to learn about how fucked up the world really is in the first place

I disagree, simply because I think that Lelouch and Schneizel aren't all that alike in that respect. But we can only speculate here, so I don't see the point in going any deeper into this than we already did.

dont forget that having marianne for a mother is not such a great deal
both she and charles also view people as a minor thing
only their disconcern stems from their plan to unite all human minds together, and hence dont care about their actual lives
thats why they didnt even care all that much about their own children

Yeah, but Lelouch cared for his mother and sister a great deal right from the beginning. He also liked winning and played and argued a lot with his siblings - all things which probably aren't true for Schneizel, who, as you already said, has no desires of hiw own.

[Charred Knight]

As azul notes, it refers to episode 19/20, where the UFN is not working with Schneizel but this one faction of the Black Knights is doing their own thing and lying to their benefactors about it. Regardless of what they believe, they acted without consulting anyone then covered it up.

In particular the other countries that where under Britannia rule, that Ougi sold out so that Japan could be free.

[Orga777]

Actually, the whole point of Lelouch's character was that his twisted past made him into the not-so-considerate person he was at the beginning of the anime.

No. That is wrong. Lelouch didn't accept Britannian ways, but his actions were not any better than theirs. This you cannot deny.

However, he feels much more strongly than Schneizel does.

I agreed to this already. And it all has to do with learning about people which Schneizel never had the fortune to do.

If there are two sides of the same coin with Lelouch, then the other side of said coin would be Suzaku.

Wrong. Suzaku and Lelouch were two friends on different sides of a conflict. Not the same in personality or goals or... much of anything really. They both have different view on right and wrong. Both have a different view on how to achieve their goals, and both have different ways of achieving them. This was the reason Suzaku never got along with Zero's ideas at all. He didn't like the idea of using people as pawns in a game and needless killing. It wasn't till Suzaku broke near the end of R2 that he changed.

Schneizel and Lelouch on the other hand, act extremely similar on all aspects. Both cared little for the people on a personal level (unless in Lelouch's case it was someone close to him) and didn't mind one bit about sacrificing them for something else, both wanted to change the world. Before Episode 19 of R2 Lelouch was an exact copy of his brother. He didn't care much for anyone unless he was emotionally attached to them. He would sacrifice countless people and not give a shit about it afterward. The only real differenece between Schneizel and Lelouch in the end even were their philisophical differences.

In fact, I would go so far as to say that had Lelouch's mother not been murdered, he would have turned out a lot more like season 1 Suzaku, just without the psychological issues and much more logical.

I don't think so. Marianna was a bitch. Through and through. She wasn't a real kind and caring person. Why do you think she wanted to merge everything to make death irrelivant and take away free will from all and pretty much have it all become Tang? If Marianna stayed alive, I think Lelouch would have been just as emotionally detached from the people as Schneizel. Hell, even MORESO since Marianna was even MORE detached than even Schneizel was.

Actually, I'd say Clovis' only excuse is that he simply didn't care, which isn't a good excuse at all, but for several reasons makes him even more likeable to me.
Clovis may have been shocked and usually not been inclined to wipe out a Ghetto for fun, but I doubt he would have lost any sleep over it. He disregarded those people's life because he didn't give a damn about anything but his family, life and art anymore.

Actually, it had more to do with his life at the moment there since he most definitely would have been tried in Britannian Court for secretly working behind the Emperor.... Oh, and trying to get back something with ultimate power that can destroy the world if in the wrong hands.

I haven't met enough sociopaths to either concede the point or completely disagree, but I think as with all psychological disorders, there are different levels and kinds of sociopaths.
Schneizel only experiences superficial emotions, which, as far as I know, is also true for a socipath. Maybe the term is still not correct, but it comes closer than anything else I can think of, and my point stays the same.

You mean... like Lelouch? XD

And no, Schneizel isn't really a sociopath (and neither is Lelouch, they just bnoth display lack of emotions when killing mass amounts of people for something they see as a greater good). He isn't The Son of Sam or the Zodiac Killer. He saw what he was doing as a necissarry evil. Just like Lelouch saw what he was doing as the same.

I disagree, simply because I think that Lelouch and Schneizel aren't all that alike in that respect. But we can only speculate here, so I don't see the point in going any deeper into this than we already did.

Oh but they are. Evidence points to it all day.

Yeah, but Lelouch cared for his mother and sister a great deal right from the beginning. He also liked winning and played and argued a lot with his siblings - all things which probably aren't true for Schneizel, who, as you already said, has no desires of hiw own.

He cared for them, but living in that enviornment with an emotionally detatched mother, and a emotionally detatched father would have molded Lelouch into another Schneizel accept more aggressive and more blind (hell, I bet he would have went with his Mother and Fathers plans if Lelouch didn't end up banished.) Just remember, Schneizel at least could see more of the larger picture of what was going on in the world. Marianna and Charles COULD NOT and never would have made an attempt too and would have merged the human conscious with the World of C taking away everything that makes living important. Lelouch just ended up seeing the whole picture after seeing human suffering and experiencing it first hand.

[Betteroffer]

Lelouch wanted to change the world for the better. His own words to Schneizel were that the future will be better, no matter how long it takes, as people would always fight to make it so. Schneizel wanted to preserve the world as it was with power and a system, ignoring individual wills.

As far as everyone's motivations and views, I believe that if it weren't for Marianne's 'murder' then Lelouch would have ended up following the system like Suzaku, while Suzaku would have ended up hating systems like Lelouch did.

When Marianne 'died' at the hands of 'terrorists' Lelouch, a prince of a powerful nation, went to the head of that nation, that system, and sought answers. When the head of that system said right to his face "What of it?" along with the whole "You are dead." thing, Lelouch developed a hatred of the concept of systems and rules that let people say "I can hurt you and it's right, because it's part of a system." Hence his desire to change Britannia from the outside.

Suzaku was clearly the outspoken, agressive, and energetic rebel type. The non-conformist do-it-my-own-way, kind of guy. When Britannia invaded and Genbu decided to take a fight-to-the-death stance to Britannia, Suzaku killed him in his emotional state. Because of this Japan surendered quickly, but the killing didn't stop. Suzaku blamed himself for the suffering, and was guilt ridden that he had listened to his own emotions and killed his father, rather than listen to the rules, thus he became obsessed with following the system.

The tragedy of Lelouch and Suzaku was that each of them just couldn't accept the others' MO because they themselves had already tried it and been horribly hurt by the results.

If Marriane hadn't died, Lelouch would have probably grown up more focused on following the rules like Schneizel, while Suzaku might have continued to hate rules, and never have killed his father since one could argue it was Lelouch and Nunally who made him see that Britannians were people too, and thus have believed in Genbu's to-the-death stance, believing that Britannia was a 100% Evil Empire in every sense.