Character Discussion - Lelouch

[Dynastya]

Hmmm.... that may be a good step forward, but bring CG, one big step is enough to reverse the gains.

Even for the Heroes of the American revolution, many of whom joined the revolution to avenge the injustice done upon their loved ones and not for the sake of freeing their people, did not know how the future would turn out in 10, 20, 50, 100, etc years from their time. All they knew is that they had to fight for what they believed was right, no matter the cost.

[Dynastya]

I don't suppose we have a V.V. or Marianne discussion thread do we?

Well anyway, after watching Turn 14, what Charles said "You've have lied to me again brother." how many of you are of the opinion that V.V. may have been the one responsible for the assassination of Marianne?

[zalem]

I don't suppose we have a V.V. or Marianne discussion thread do we?

Well anyway, after watching Turn 14, what Charles said "You've have lied to me again brother." how many are you of the opinion that V.V. may have been the one responsible for the assassination of Marianne?

Plus there is the way V.V. reacted when Jeremiah brought up her name. He seems to really hate her. So yeah, it certainly makes him look suspicious.

[yezhanquan]

Head to the spoilers discussion thread for this.

[Dynastya]

Head to the spoilers discussion thread for this.

LOL I really like the fact that people on forums think they can tell you what to do...quite the little amusing chap aren't you?

There's a difference between asking an opinion of what may have happened and stating something for a fact. Spoilers are facts which have been confirmed as will happen or will be revealed in the future, asking opinions of what someone thinks will happen or will be revealed is NOT a spoiler.

[yezhanquan]

LOL I really like the fact that people on forums think they can tell you what to do...quite the little amusing chap aren't you?

There's a difference between asking an opinion of what may have happened and stating something for a fact. Spoilers are facts which have been confirmed as will happen or will be revealed in the future, asking opinions of what someone thinks will happen or will be revealed is NOT a spoiler.

This is the thread for Lulu, not on Charles or V.V.. Of course, you can PM the mod and ask him if this is allowed. *shrug shoulders*

[Dynastya]

This is the thread for Lulu, not on Charles or V.V.. Of course, you can PM the mod and ask him if this is allowed. *shrug shoulders*

As there doesn't seem to be a thread for neither Marianne nor V.V. the closest thread to discuss it would be the Lelouch thread as he IS her son.

[yezhanquan]

As there doesn't seem to be a thread for neither Marianne nor V.V. the closest thread to discuss it would be the Lelouch thread as he IS her son.

Well, spoilers and speculation seems more appropriate, given that we have no idea where V.V. hates Marianne so. Heck, we don't even know how Charles really feels for this particular wife.

[hayato]

This is the thread for Lulu, not on Charles or V.V.. Of course, you can PM the mod and ask him if this is allowed. *shrug shoulders*

Each thread is created for a purpose, also before even entering this thread a reader should focus more on the thread rules at the very first post, and all the other etc info.

[Verist]

I like to follow the thread rules as close as possible, but a good discussion is a good discussion, since everyone is involved in the story, its difficult for them not to overlap

[zalem]

There's a difference between asking an opinion of what may have happened and stating something for a fact. Spoilers are facts which have been confirmed as will happen or will be revealed in the future, asking opinions of what someone thinks will happen or will be revealed is NOT a spoiler.

But that thread is titled "Spoilers & Speculation" and what you wrote does count for speculation, so it might be better over there rather than in the Lulu thread. It is a very interesting topic though.

[patnam]

i had a feeling about Lelouch's fate in very final episode of CG...

Lelouch would meet his fate which familliar to Light's

[Dream_Traveller]

...For the last damn time, stop making Death Note comparisons.

[yezhanquan]

...For the last damn time, stop making Death Note comparisons.

DN references are ok. I always thought of C.C. as Ryuk.

One thing: Light met his end because he abused his power, and never saw that the power of the DN came at a price (the wisdom to use it "properly"). Through Shirley's death, Lulu knows that the Geass would cause him to pay a price. He hates the power of the Geass, but he also "respects" it.

[Dream_Traveller]

By DN references, constant comparisons of Lelouch to Light are starting to wear my mind thin. And besides, Lelouch has taken a different road from Yagami in the respect of power, obviously clear from the events of Turn 14, by seeking to destroy said power's source instead of disrespect it.

[yezhanquan]

By DN references, constant comparisons of Lelouch to Light are starting to wear my mind thin. And besides, Lelouch has taken a different road from Yagami in the respect of power, obviously clear from the events of Turn 14, by seeking to destroy said power's source instead of disrespect it.

Well, destroying the source of the Geass.... He can try, but I doubt that the thing is possible.

[Silver Soul]

i had a feeling about Lelouch's fate in very final episode of CG...

Lelouch would meet his fate which familliar to Light's

As much as I would love that, it seems pretty obvious that he has swayed himself from the path sadly

[ScudFace]

I predict that in the final ep lelouche will be forced to choose between his goals and saving the world in which he would choose the ladder thus redeeming himself of past sins.
Lives away from rest of the world with kallen/CC/nunully/marianne/bridge bunnies/suzaku(ok mayb not)

[Silver Soul]

I predict that in the final ep lelouche will be forced to choose between his goals and saving the world in which he would choose the ladder thus redeeming himself of past sins.
Lives away from rest of the world with kallen/CC/nunully/marianne/bridge bunnies/suzaku(ok mayb not)

bridge bunnies? :eyebrow: they'll probably go down with the Black Knights :heh:

[matteas]

Suzaku is acting more and more stupid every episode. I would like to see him dead already, he really gives me a pain.

[Silver Soul]

Suzaku is acting more and more stupid every episode. I would like to see him dead already, he really gives me a pain.

Lelouch is acting more and more stupid every episode. I would like to see him dead already, he really gives me a pain (and he's the main character :upset:)

[ZeroSama]

Lelouch is acting more and more stupid every episode. I would like to see him dead already, he really gives me a pain (and he's the main character :upset:)

Sucks that your in the minority though, and that we have people posting these comments.

[orangejuicetang]

The show just wouldn't be interesting if either of those two died. Now Rolo on the other hand...

[ZeroSama]

The show just wouldn't be interesting if either of those two died. Now Rolo on the other hand...

and V.V.. and Nina. Actually theres a whole heap of people whio i wouldn't mind seein the back of.

[Diedrupo]

Several American Revolutionary heroes who founded a nation based on Republic/Democracy joined the revolution to avenge the injustice done upon their loved ones and not just for purely noble reasons as to help their people as a whole.

Lelouch's main intentions maybe to seek justice for his mother and free his sister, but the side-effects of his actions also bring about freedom from fear, freedom from oppression, freedom from injustice.

Thank you for pointing that out but I really don't see how that changes anything I said. A side-effect of Lelouch's actions is indeed a greater push towards the Japanese regaining their homeland, however that is still not his true goal and he has demonstrated that he'd be willing to give up on the Black Knights if they no longer factored into his goal (see when Nunally became governor).

I don't hate Lelouch at all for not being as well-intentioned as he pretends to be. In fact, I respect him even more for it.


Lelouch is acting more and more stupid every episode. I would like to see him dead already, he really gives me a pain (and he's the main character :upset:)

Actually, he's acted less stupid this season, and become more sympathetic. Most of his "evil" acts were done in season 1.

As much as I'd love to see evil Lelouch return, I think they are deliberately changing him to be more sympathetic this season so viewers aren't upset if he doesn't die in the end.

[ZeroSama]

Actually, he's acted less stupid this season, and become more sympathetic. Most of his "evil" acts were done in season 1.

As much as I'd love to see evil Lelouch return, I think they are deliberately changing him to be more sympathetic this season so viewers aren't upset if he doesn't die in the end.

Wait i thought he was more popular than Suzaku in Japan even during S1? Alot of people would've been upset if he died then. Even more so now that he's not acting such an evil bastard.

[Diedrupo]

Wait i thought he was more popular than Suzaku in Japan even during S1? Alot of people would've been upset if he died then. Even more so now that he's not acting such an evil bastard.

I'm not comparing him to Suzaku, I am talking only about Lelouch.

And quite frankly, after what he did to Euphemia in S1, I can assure you that a lot of people wanted him to pay for that.

[ZeroSama]

I'm not comparing him to Suzaku, I am talking only about Lelouch.

And quite frankly, after what he did to Euphemia in S1, I can assure you that a lot of people wanted him to pay for that.

Well yeah the similarites between her and Laacus were pretty glaring and you know how the Japanese feel about Lacus-Sama:frustrated:.

Didn't change the fact i was grinning all the way through it. The only way it could've been better was if her geass caused her to try to kill Suzaku only for his live geass to activate and force him to kill her. Best moment ever.

[orangejuicetang]

Now your just being pointlessly cruel.

[Diedrupo]

Didn't change the fact i was grinning all the way through it. The only way it could've been better was if her geass caused her to try to kill Suzaku only for his live geass to activate and force him to kill her. Best moment ever.

:heh: your blind devotion to Lelouch would make him proud! (until he decides to get rid of you after he's done using you)

[ZeroSama]

Now your just being pointlessly cruel.

Look i hate characters who have the sun shining out of there asses. I like morally ambiguous people, like Lulu. There more real. Plus Suzaku needed to suffer more.

[orangejuicetang]

They are both morally ambiguous people. Though I must say that people similar to Lelouch in real life are very rare.

[Silver Soul]

They are both morally ambiguous people. Though I must say that people similar to Lelouch in real life are very rare.

Thank god! That's someone who you would not like to be a friend to in real life
Look i hate characters who have the sun shining out of there asses. I like morally ambiguous people, like Lulu. There more real. Plus Suzaku needed to suffer more.

>_< I'm not sure whether to laugh or pity

[ZeroSama]

Thank god! That's someone who you would not like to be a friend to in real life

I would. Look at the shit storm that erupted when one of his friends died. If you mess with his friends prepare to die whether your man, woman or child.

Basically if your a friend of his he'll move mountains for you.

>_< I'm not sure whether to laugh or pity [/QUOTE]

I was refering to Euphie. Plus i meant suffer in relation to the amonut he's hurt Lulu. Justified or not.

[orangejuicetang]

He's also the sort of person to accidently hurt his friends through careless actions or incomplete planning. Sort of like Euphie and Shirley.

[Silver Soul]

Actually, he's acted less stupid this season, and become more sympathetic. Most of his "evil" acts were done in season 1.

As much as I'd love to see evil Lelouch return, I think they are deliberately changing him to be more sympathetic this season so viewers aren't upset if he doesn't die in the end.

The only sympathetic aspect of his character is his love for his sister and the scenes with them are by far the best of the series (S1 episodes 3, 12 comes to mind) and even when Shirley was telling him about the "Power Of Love" Lelouch first thought was about Nunnally (not C.C. and thank god not Kallen) and how he'll do anything for her happiness, other than that I see no redeemable qualities about his character.

[ZeroSama]

He's also the sort of person to accidently hurt his friends through careless actions or incomplete planning. Sort of like Euphie and Shirley.

And Suzaku's not the type to drug up his friends or put them in the line of fire by selling one of them resulting in them all being mindwiped?

[Diedrupo]

And Suzaku's not the type to drug up his friends or put them in the line of fire by selling one of them resulting in them all being mindwiped?

1) Kallen isn't Suzaku's friend
2) What Suzaku did to Lelouch was perhaps the most merciful thing he could have done for him. Lelouch had his memories wiped and in the process was able to return to a normal happy life at school. Peace returned to Area 11.
That the elevens were even more oppressed during this period of time is only due to Lelouch's own actions.

[Silver Soul]

I would. Look at the shit storm that erupted when one of his friends died. If you mess with his friends prepare to die whether your man, woman or child.

Basically if your a friend of his he'll move mountains for you.

Well be prepare to be left in the dark on his entire life and garner no sympathy from him if one of your love ones are caught in the conflict or if you are for some reason of his little rebellion, everything is fair game in his eyes friend or not regardless if he cries out


I was refering to Euphie. Plus i meant suffer in relation to the amonut he's hurt Lulu. Justified or not.

How the hell did Suzaku hurt Lelouch before the Euphie incident when it was indirectly towards Zero and not Lelouch, or in case you forgot

[ZeroSama]

1) Kallen isn't Suzaku's friend
2) What Suzaku did to Lelouch was perhaps the most merciful thing he could have done for him. Lelouch had his memories wiped and in the process was able to return to a normal happy life at school. Peace returned to Area 11.
That the elevens were even more oppressed during this period of time is only due to Lelouch's own actions.

He didn't know the Emp had a geass though. He might as well have given him to the executioner for all he knew. Plus Suzaku's action caused the SC, his friends to have their minds raped. and if you want to point the finger Area 11 situation is the result of Suzaku ganking his dad. What gave him the right to decide?

[Silver Soul]

He didn't know the Emp had a geass though. He might as well have given him to the executioner for all he knew. Plus Suzaku's action caused the SC, his friends to have their minds raped. and if you want to point the finger Area 11 situation is the result of Suzaku ganking his dad. What gave him the right to decide?

So what your basically trying to say is that Suzaku is fault for everything and Lelouch is not :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[thedonkiluminati]

2) What Suzaku did to Lelouch was perhaps the most merciful thing he could have done for him. Lelouch had his memories wiped and in the process was able to return to a normal happy life at school. Peace returned to Area 11.
That the elevens were even more oppressed during this period of time is only due to Lelouch's own actions.

I don't consider serving him up to the man he hates most in the world merciful. And the Japanese shouldn't be oppressed at all.

[zalem]

Wait i thought he was more popular than Suzaku in Japan even during S1? Alot of people would've been upset if he died then. Even more so now that he's not acting such an evil bastard.

For all the stuff Lulu has pulled he has always remained extremely popular in Japan. The people who want him to pay tend to be people who never really liked him to begin with, with exceptions here and there.

There is not much Lelouch can do to change my mind about him. I liked Yagami Light afterall, and Lulu doesn't hold a candle to him in the evil department. The only thing I can think of is if he did a complete 180 and turned into season 1 Suzaku. Now that might be something worthy of hating him for.

[ZeroSama]

So what your basically trying to say is that Suzaku is fault for everything and Lelouch is not :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

No there both at fault.

[Silver Soul]

I don't consider serving him up to the man he hates most in the world merciful. And the Japanese shouldn't be oppressed at all.

He could of killed him you know especially considering how angry he was

[ZeroSama]

He could of killed him you know especially considering how angry he was

Well at least that would've stopped the SC from being mindraped.

[Diedrupo]

He didn't know the Emp had a geass though. He might as well have given him to the executioner for all he knew. Plus Suzaku's action caused the SC, his friends to have their minds raped. and if you want to point the finger Area 11 situation is the result of Suzaku ganking his dad. What gave him the right to decide?

Yes, Suzaku did not know what the Emperor would do, however at that point, he did not care. Remember, he hated Zero for killing Euphemia, and in his mind, presenting Zero to receive justice at the hands of the Emperor was all he needed to do. Anything after that, would be what Zero deserved to get (whether it be execution or memory wiping).

Suzaku obviously feels regret for killing his father, even to the point of wanting to die for it, but I am pretty sure it's well established that if he had not killed his father, who was continually opposed to Britannia, that Japan would have been completely eradicated. There would have been far more casualties due to a prolonged war.

So you have a choice between a really bad situation (what would have happened if Suzaku didn't kill his father) or a slightly less bad situation (what did happen).

What makes you think Japan could have beaten Britannia without someone like Zero?

I don't consider serving him up to the man he hates most in the world merciful. And the Japanese shouldn't be oppressed at all.

It's merciful in the sense of what the Emperor actually did. He could have punished Lelouch but instead chose to wipe his memories and return him to being a normal, happy person.

And yes the Japanese shouldn't be oppressed. Whose fault is it? Oh, Lelouch's! S1 Episode 12 established that Britannia wanted the Japanese to self-govern, and if Euphemia had succeeded, Tokyo and later the rest of Japan, would have been a peaceful co-existing world for both Britannians and Japanese. Things COULD have been happy. For the sake of the story, they didn't.

[thedonkiluminati]

He could of killed him you know especially considering how angry he was

He might have preferred that.

[Silver Soul]

For all the stuff Lulu has pulled he has always remained extremely popular in Japan. The people who want him to pay tend to be people who never really liked him to begin with, with exceptions here and there.

There is not much Lelouch can do to change my mind about him. I liked Yagami Light afterall, and Lulu doesn't hold a candle to him in the evil department. The only thing I can think of is if he did a complete 180 and turned into season 1 Suzaku. Now that might be something worthy of hating him for.

So if Lelouch turn into a naive hypocrite he want be so popular? Nah, I don't see it he'll probably still be popular because he is "the main character" afterall

[thedonkiluminati]

So if Lelouch turn into a naive hypocrite he want be so popular? Nah, I don't see it he'll probably still be popular because he is "the main character" afterall

I'd boycott code geass if that happened.

[zalem]

So if Lelouch turn into a naive hypocrite he want be so popular? Nah, I don't see it he'll probably still be popular because he is "the main character" afterall

I'm saying for me that would be something worthy of my dislike. Not sure about other people.

[Silver Soul]

He might have preferred that.

Seriously? I highly doubt that considering the so called bomb he had to kill himself with Suzaku and Kallen was a fake

[zalem]

Seriously? I highly doubt that considering the so called bomb he had to kill himself with Suzaku and Kallen was a fake

Eh? I don't remember it being fake.

[thedonkiluminati]

Seriously? I highly doubt that considering the so called bomb he had was a fake

Of course it was, he thought his sister was around, he wasn't gonna risk her.I truly believe that to Lelouch the only thing worse than to serve him up to "That man" would be to off Nunally.

[ZeroSama]

Yes, Suzaku did not know what the Emperor would do, however at that point, he did not care. Remember, he hated Zero for killing Euphemia, and in his mind, presenting Zero to receive justice at the hands of the Emperor was all he needed to do. Anything after that, would be what Zero deserved to get (whether it be execution or memory wiping).

Suzaku obviously feels regret for killing his father, even to the point of wanting to die for it, but I am pretty sure it's well established that if he had not killed his father, who was continually opposed to Britannia, that Japan would have been completely eradicated. There would have been far more casualties due to a prolonged war.

So you have a choice between a really bad situation (what would have happened if Suzaku didn't kill his father) or a slightly less bad situation (what did happen).

What makes you think Japan could have beaten Britannia without someone like Zero?

My point was he had no right to make that decision for everyone. The Japanese people are very proud and the only reason the surrendered during WW2 was because the A-Bomb was used(twice) and the Emperor gave the order after that. Its safe to assume the Japanese in CG universe were much the same. Plus in Asian cultue its a big thing to die for your country. Most would've probably went for death before dishonour choice.

[Silver Soul]

Eh? I don't remember it being fake.

He said it would detonate if his heart stop so it might not of been so

[mash11]

No there both at fault.

no I would say Britannia or its emperor or even VV is at fault for playing with everyone like that.

[Silver Soul]

no I would say Britannia or its emperor or even VV is at fault for playing with everyone like that.

Britannia is left in the dark to what Charles and V.V. are up to that's why we have Cornelia and Jeremiah losing all tithes with them to stop him

[Diedrupo]

My point was he had no right to make that decision for everyone. The Japanese people are very proud and the only reason the surrendered during WW2 was because the A-Bomb was used(twice) and the Emperor gave the order after that. Its safe to assume the Japanese in CG universe were much the same. Plus in Asian cultue its a big thing to die for your country. Most would've probably went for death before dishonour choice.

Meh, I still don't see a reason to hate Suzaku specifically for that decision. Maybe he didn't have the right to make it, but he did, and he was only 10 at the time. And you're still going to hold that against him? Seriously?

It seems to me that you hate Suzaku for some of the least legitimate reasons.

Also, that last sentence about Asian culture is pretty ridiculous. As an asian, I'm almost offended by it.

[ZeroSama]

Meh, I still don't see a reason to hate Suzaku specifically for that decision. Maybe he didn't have the right to make it, but he did, and he was only 10 at the time. And you're still going to hold that against him? Seriously?

It seems to me that you hate Suzaku for some of the least legitimate reasons.

Also, that last sentence about Asian culture is pretty ridiculous. As an asian, I'm almost offended by it.

Back then anyway Japan was ultranationalist. They had the worlds first suicide bombers for christsakes.

And i apologize for painting all asians with the same paint brush.

[Silver Soul]

Meh, I still don't see a reason to hate Suzaku specifically for that decision. Maybe he didn't have the right to make it, but he did, and he was only 10 at the time. And you're still going to hold that against him? Seriously?

It seems to me that you hate Suzaku for some of the least legitimate reasons.

Also, that last sentence about Asian culture is pretty ridiculous. As an asian, I'm almost offended by it.

Lelouch fans tend to go overboard just to prove a point and in the end makes themselves seem ridiculous in their responses, anyway even Lelouch and Nunnally acknowledged Suzaku action beneficial to the Japanese it was either that or be completely wipe out yet people never seem to get the big picture there because they're an oppresses nation and would rather die than serve under Britannia (and vice versa) in a way their exactly like Britannia (see picture drama)

[thedonkiluminati]

Meh, I still don't see a reason to hate Suzaku specifically for that decision. Maybe he didn't have the right to make it, but he did, and he was only 10 at the time. And you're still going to hold that against him? Seriously?



I take murder seriously no matter the age. It wasn't like he was playing around or anything, his intention was to kill his dad. Age does not give him a pass imo.

[Silver Soul]

I take murder seriously no matter the age. It wasn't like he was playing around or anything, his intention was to kill his dad. Age does not give him a pass imo.

I suppose you don't thnk Lelouch killing Clovis was serious, now who's the hypocrite

[mash11]

Lelouch is a revolutionary, murder does not apply to him.

[Silver Soul]

Lelouch is a revolutionary, murder does not apply to him.

>_< SO Suzaku killing his father for the greater good of Japan is bad and Lelouch killing his brother for his cause is good? :eyebrow:.......yeah, I don't think so

[mash11]

I was being sarcastic, but since we are on that issue, my favourite character in CG is Lelouch, as such I am aware that my dislike for suzaku will stem from his being against him. I agree that may lack rationality but :D.

Wait till the series ends though, b/c as they say history is written by the hhands of the victors.

[Traece]

Actually Lelouch's killings are more than forgiveable. And if you want to get really technical, to my knowledge Lelouch hasn't PERSONALLY done away with a single foe using his own body. They all kill themselves or get killed by his willing (sometimes endlessly willing. Geass-effectees) minions.

Personally, I don't think Suzaku's killing of his dad was good in entirety. Even if he never slew his father, there's a good chance that someone else who felt the same as Suzaku could've killed or. Just as much, in times of crisis, your leader doesn't matter if you don't feel the same way. White flags mean a lot. Though Suzaku did kill his father for the right reasons, there's a good possibility that he didn't kill him out of necessity. Where as Lelouch is performing a necessary and just rebellion against the warmongering Britannia. It's not justice to force the people of the world to conform to one way of life and thinking.

[Dynastya]

People say Lelouch's methods are bad and that he is starting to resemble his father, however what they DO NOT realize that during World War II, to defeat Hitler and Nazi Germany, many of the allied heroes often had to use the same methods, same cunning strategies and tactics. Do you really think we would've won WWII if we had acted like Suzaku instead of fighting Hitler with all the force and strength we could muster? In North Africa alone, Rommel held off against allied advances for a long time and several times he was outnumbered in his battles. Montgomery had to out-think and out-smart Rommel to win.

And even now Rommel is admired by both his own people and his enemies. Admired and Respected.

The only difference is that those allied heroes showed restraint unlike their axis counterparts. Same for Lelouch, compared to Clovis or any other Britannian (except Schneizel), Lelouch shows restraint.

It is Sun Tzu who wrote that to ensure victory in battle, a good general has to know himself and know his enemy well.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Actually Lelouch's killings are more than forgiveable. And if you want to get really technical, to my knowledge Lelouch hasn't PERSONALLY done away with a single foe using his own body. They all kill themselves or get killed by his willing (sometimes endlessly willing. Geass-effectees) minions.

Personally, I don't think Suzaku's killing of his dad was good in entirety. Even if he never slew his father, there's a good chance that someone else who felt the same as Suzaku could've killed or. Just as much, in times of crisis, your leader doesn't matter if you don't feel the same way. White flags mean a lot. Though Suzaku did kill his father for the right reasons, there's a good possibility that he didn't kill him out of necessity. Where as Lelouch is performing a necessary and just rebellion against the warmongering Britannia. It's not justice to force the people of the world to conform to one way of life and thinking.

So it's not evil as long as you manipulate others to do the killings for you?:confused:
If that's what helps you sleep at night.

[Traece]

So it's not evil as long as you manipulate others to do the killings for you?:confused:
If that's what helps you sleep at night.

I didn't really say that. I was sort of kidding about that part. Which is why I said if you REALLY want to get technical... Blah blah blah. I'm not saying that Lelouch is justified because he made some other poor fool pull the trigger. Though I suppose any Japanese that he forced to commit suicide died honorably? I don't know how that works though... I'm going to assume that my last sentence was very false. :confused:

[Avira]

Aye. Being the kid he is, he didn't realise how great a personal price he will pay for his actions.
He's probably going to realise that now. He wanted a war, now he has a war, and in a war both sides loose to some degree.

[Dynastya]

Does anyone here think Lelouch killing the researchers and children of the Geass Faction = murder?

If you do, then realize this: his actions are justifiable and reasonable, even by real world standards. It doesn't constitute murder in any sense. Why?

1) A state of War exists between the Black Knights + United States v.s. Britannia.
2) Those so called children are genetically engineered weapons of destruction, they are NOT innocent children in any sense.
3) Those scientists knew what they were doing and why, they also held knowledge if it falls into the wrong hands can prove more destructive then any conventional weapon known.

so Lelouch had three choices:

a) Capture the researchers and geass children and use them. The potential risk is they would most likely turn on him.

b) Capture them and imprison them somewhere. The risk is as long as they are alive, their powers or knowledge always runs the risk of falling into the wrong hands.

c) Destroy them. No risk of knowledge or power falling into the wrong hands and no risk of betrayal.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Does anyone here think Lelouch killing the researchers and children of the Geass Faction = murder?

If you do, then realize this: his actions are justifiable and reasonable, even by real world standards. It doesn't constitute murder in any sense. Why?

1) A state of War exists between the Black Knights + United States v.s. Britannia.
2) Those so called children are genetically engineered weapons of destruction, they are NOT innocent children in any sense.
3) Those scientists knew what they were doing and why, they also held knowledge if it falls into the wrong hands can prove more destructive then any conventional weapon known.

so Lelouch had three choices:

a) Capture the researchers and geass children and use them. The potential risk is they would most likely turn on him.

b) Capture them and imprison them somewhere. The risk is as long as they are alive, their powers or knowledge always runs the risk of falling into the wrong hands.

c) Destroy them. No risk of knowledge or power falling into the wrong hands and no risk of betrayal.

By your logic, Suzaku should have ordered the massacre of all the Japanese dressed as Zero a long time ago. You don't need a geass to becoming a murdering monster.

[Dynastya]

By your logic, Suzaku should have ordered the massacre of all the Japanese dressed as Zero a long time ago. You don't need a geass to becoming a murdering monster.

Dressing up as someone they admire and actually BEING weapons of destruction are two different things.

Get your logic straightened out.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Dressing up as someone they admire and actually BEING weapons of destruction are two different things.

Get your logic straightened out.

Lelouch is one of those weapons of mass destruction. So he must die as well?

[Traece]

Technically an army of Zeros pose no military threat. They're just civilians dressed like terrorists. That'd be like saying anyone dressed like a villain for halloween makes that person an object of war and thus their life is void. Shoot on sight? Halloween hunting? Nightmare on Elm Street! WOOO!

[Seazn]

The killings of the Researchers are justifiable. Why? Because they're researching how to KILL THE GODS and create immortal being from torture, not considering human rights etc. etc.

[Sports72Xtrm]

An army of zero that have joined a enemy faction of Britania is a military threat. Give those trick or treaters guns and they do become a threat.

[Sports72Xtrm]

The killings of the Researchers are justifiable. Why? Because they're researching how to KILL THE GODS and create immortal being from torture, not considering human rights etc. etc.

Gods that pit people against each other.

[Dynastya]

Lelouch is one of those weapons of mass destruction. So he must die as well?

Lelouch received his powers without any genetic manipulation. Those children were engineered and given those powers.

It's like saying someone who was born with natural psychic powers deserve to die as much as someone who was genetically engineered in a lab by some scientists in the quest to make a super soldier.

[Traece]

It's hard to differentiate supersoldiers. On one hand you have a living breathing person. On the other you have a living breathing person who went through fine-tuning and many changes to turn said person into a living weapon for the destruction of all targets.

In the case of Code Geass... All children are living weapons, because they still use their Geass despite being so young.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Lelouch received his powers without any genetic manipulation. Those children were engineered and given those powers.

It's like saying someone who was born with natural psychic powers deserve to die as much as someone who was genetically engineered in a lab by some scientists in the quest to make a super soldier.

That's besides the point. The point is your sugarcoating a massacre. These people were unarmed and could have surrendered. Even if I agreed with all you have said, by Geneva convention codes, if a unarmed enemy surrenders you don't kill them. Even if I agreed with you Lelouch had no right to kill the scientists at the very least.

[Dynastya]

That's besides the point. The point is your sugarcoating a massacre. These people were unarmed and could have surrendered. Even if I agreed with all you have said, by Geneva convention codes, if a unarmed enemy surrenders you don't kill them. Even if I agreed with you Lelouch had no right to kill the scientists at the very least.

The Geneva Convention only protects those in uniform, those scientists WERE not in uniform.

They were people who had knowledge in their head if which fell into the wrong hands can be used to create even more destruction.

[Sports72Xtrm]

The Geneva Convention only protects those in uniform, those scientists WERE not in uniform.

They were people who had knowledge in their head if which fell into the wrong hands can be used to create even more destruction.

Then why not kill every man and woman who knows how make a nuclear warhead and gun. You think the scientist want to be doing that shit? They wake every morning and say hey I want to contribute to society by making child assassins. The researchers themselves were looking to C.C. for salvation and they got body full of lead for their trust.:frustrated:

[Dynastya]

Then why not kill every man and woman who knows how make a nuclear warhead and gun. You think the scientist want to be doing that shit? They wake every morning and say hey I want to contribute to society by making child assassins. The researchers themselves were looking to C.C. for salvation and they got body full of lead for their trust.:frustrated:

It's exactly because there are thousands of people who know how to make nuclear weapons and they live in dozens of countries that no country has a huge advantage over another in terms of nuclear weapons that nuclear scientists don't need to be shot. The only limiting factor is that the materials needed to make nuclear weapons are tightly controled. Even I know how to build a nuclear bomb as powerful as the ones which were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and apart from the fissionable materials and explosives used, all the tools and hardware I need to build it can be found in an average hardware store.

In the case of the Geass researchers, only Britannia has the knowledge, no other country does. So they have a huge advantage over other nations with the existence of these scientists.

[demon_god04]

It's exactly because there are thousands of people who know how to make nuclear weapons and they live in dozens of countries that no country has a huge advantage over another in terms of nuclear weapons that nuclear scientists don't need to be shot. The only limiting factor is that the materials needed to make nuclear weapons are tightly controled. Even I know how to build a nuclear bomb as powerful as the ones which were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and apart from the fissionable materials and explosives used, all the tools and hardware I need to build it can be found in an average hardware store.

In the case of the Geass researchers, only Britannia has the knowledge, no other country does. So they have a huge advantage over other nations with the existence of these scientists.

And as you pointed out fissionable materials and explosives could be controlled and monitored, how do you control something like Geass which can be in anyone, even a ten year old child? It is better that the cult has disappeared without the world being any the wiser.

[Sports72Xtrm]

And as you pointed out fissionable materials and explosives could be controlled and monitored, how do you control something like Geass which can be in anyone, even a ten year old child? It is better that the cult has disappeared without the world being any the wiser.

Well there is people like orangekun who can cancel out geass. As for monitoring well I'm pretty sure Britannia has records of who they give geass to. Unless people like C.C. go around giving random people geasses *cough* Lelouch, Mao

[demon_god04]

Well there is people like orangekun who can cancel out geass. As for monitoring well I'm pretty sure Britannia has records of who they give geass to. Unless people like C.C. go around giving random people geasses *cough* Lelouch, Mao

I am talking about if geass became widely known like nuclear weapons. And I don't see alot of people with geass cancelers like Orange keeping tabs on geass users.

[thedonkiluminati]

I suppose you don't thnk Lelouch killing Clovis was serious, now who's the hypocrite

No, you would be wrong. I had more problems with him killing Clovis than Euphemia.

[yezhanquan]

No, you would be wrong. I had more problems with him killing Clovis than Euphemia.

Hmmm.... how so?

[blitz1/2]

An army of zero that have joined a enemy faction of Britania is a military threat. Give those trick or treaters guns and they do become a threat.

Yes, massacre Gundam seed stargazer style!

What fun is a massacre if there is no one dying? jk

Anyways, Lulu could have recruited/asked for the people to surrender rather than kill them all on a spot.

[thedonkiluminati]

Hmmm.... how so?

Euphemia was killing every japanese person in sight non stop because of the geass command. Lelouch knew of no other way to stop but to shoot her. He already had Clovis stop his massacre, and could have had him forget his face with the geass command. Instead he shot him. Clovis's murder was way more avoidable.

[yezhanquan]

I guess killing Clovis was Lulu's Dark Lord 1101 module. He's using it to numb himself for the terrible things to come. He knew that prices had to be paid for stirring up trouble; it was when the prices began to hit home that he started to whine a little.

[orangejuicetang]

Though really, now that you think about it, from a military point of view killing Clovis was a mistake for Lelouch. Killing Clovis meant that Cornelia had to come in to take care of Area 11, who was a much better commander than Clovis. If Lelouch had left Clovis alive, Clovis would have been the enemy commander instead of Clovis, and he would have liberated Japan already.

[thedonkiluminati]

I guess killing Clovis was Lulu's Dark Lord 1101 module. He's using it to numb himself for the terrible things to come. He knew that prices had to be paid for stirring up trouble; it was when the prices began to hit home that he started to whine a little.

I like Lelouch's evil mode, but I've got issues with him killing his siblings(if can be avoided anyway). The one thing I got from the first season and the sound episodes is that with the exception of Carrine or what ever that new princess's name was, the royal siblings geuinely cared for one another. So him going killing those who mourned his death doesn't sit right with me.

[yezhanquan]

I like Lelouch's evil mode, but I've got issues with him killing his siblings(if can be avoided anyway). The one thing I got from the first season and the sound episodes is that with the exception of Carrine or what ever that new princess's name was, the royal siblings geuinely cared for one another. So him going killing those who mourned his death doesn't sit right with me.

He's onto "bigger" things. The feel that I get from CG R1 (and this is before I started on the series) is how naive Lulu was at the beginning. Besides paying the price, there are other issues whereby he acted his age. Yes, he did organise the Order, but he was still no leader in R1. Come R2, he's now morphing into something which will frighten Nunnally, should she know about it.

[thedonkiluminati]

Come R2, he's now morphing into something which will frighten Nunnally, should she know about it.

I certainly hope so...

[yezhanquan]

I feel that Lulu is losing control. First, his Geass. Now, his mind, his most valuable asset, is getting eroded. Slowly, but surely.

[Velden]

Euphemia was killing every japanese person in sight non stop because of the geass command. Lelouch knew of no other way to stop but to shoot her. He already had Clovis stop his massacre, and could have had him forget his face with the geass command. Instead he shot him. Clovis's murder was way more avoidable.

In Clovis´s case, I agree that there could have been other ways but...

1)Lelouch already gave an order which was to "answer his questions", to tell him who is marianne´s murderer. And he can´t geass the same person twice.
2)Lelouch didn´t know the true nature of his geass, after that day he had to experiment with it to get a full idea of what it does and it´s limitations.
3)If he were to let clovis live and just "make him forget to have seen him", probably the massacre of the japanese would have just continued, which is something that lelouch wanted to stop.

[orangejuicetang]

Though, one of the reasons for the massacres of japanese people was because he blamed the Japanese for Lelouch and Nunually's "deaths" during the war in Japan. Actually ironic really.

[yezhanquan]

Though, one of the reasons for the massacres of japanese people was because he blamed the Japanese for Lelouch and Nunually's "deaths" during the war in Japan. Actually ironic really.

More ironies will come. Lulu has been "broken" momentarily before; I wouldn't mind him jumping into the abyss. I wouldn't say that he deserves it, just that it would be interesting to see what he'll do then.

[orangejuicetang]

Just thinking, since Clovis was apparently the one who admired Lelouch the most, it would have been so much easier for Lelouch to accomplish his goals by working with Clovis. or at least have been able to stop his massacres and make the protection of Nunually alot easier.

[Ledgem]

Just thinking, since Clovis was apparently the one who admired Lelouch the most, it would have been so much easier for Lelouch to accomplish his goals by working with Clovis. or at least have been able to stop his massacres and make the protection of Nunually alot easier.
Not necessarily. Admiration doesn't automatically make you a follower. Unfortunately we don't know enough about how Clovis viewed Britannia's philosophical grounds to know whether he would have joined Lelouch in mounting a revolution.

[orangejuicetang]

True, but I think he would have at least stopped massacring Japanese, and start some reforms, or pretty much everything short of revolution and open defiance.

[Major1138]

Just thinking, since Clovis was apparently the one who admired Lelouch the most, it would have been so much easier for Lelouch to accomplish his goals by working with Clovis. or at least have been able to stop his massacres and make the protection of Nunually alot easier.

Well the irony of it all is that in season 1, most of the Britannian nobility we saw in the series would have been sympathetic to Lelouch's quest to find out the truth of his mother's assassination. As you've said, despite their apparent rivalry, Clovis was fond of Lelouch and his family. Cornelia and Euphemia were as well, and as we know, Jeremiah would have likely pledged his loyalty to Lelouch had he known the truth.

Although the bigger irony (if you can call it that) to me is that Lelouch and Suzaku should really be in each other's shoes. Lelouch is the Britannian prince who should be wheeling and dealing within the Empire and willing to "play the game" so to speak to achieve his goals. Suzaku is the son of the last prime minister of Japan with uber combat skills who seems better suited to leading a guerrilla campaign to free his homeland.

[Velden]

Although the bigger irony (if you can call it that) to me is that Lelouch and Suzaku should really be in each other's shoes. Lelouch is the Britannian prince who should be wheeling and dealing within the Empire and willing to "play the game" so to speak to achieve his goals. Suzaku is the son of the last prime minister of Japan with uber combat skills who seems better suited to leading a guerrilla campaign to free his homeland.

I didn´t think it that way and you´re right, quite an irony...

[Claies]

Just thinking, since Clovis was apparently the one who admired Lelouch the most, it would have been so much easier for Lelouch to accomplish his goals by working with Clovis. or at least have been able to stop his massacres and make the protection of Nunually alot easier.

I doubt Clovis would have been supportive. We don't know how much he believes in Britannian ideals, but I feel he wouldn't save Lelouch's back in any way if it jeopardizes his position as governor-general. Besides, the vi Britannians are exiled. They're not going to be publicly accepted anyway.

Plus, Lelouch probably prioritized against revealing himself to Britannia, which would have stopped short his grand plans of annihilating the social-darwinist system (which he had aspirations for years ago right after Japan was conquered). Given he was probably a naive idealist like many have said, he wouldn't want to lose that so soon. I doubt the royalty (look at Carline, Schneizel, and Odysseus) would be supportive of his original goals of sinking Britannian ideals. The best they'd do is investigate Marianne's murder, which so far has still failed.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Although the bigger irony (if you can call it that) to me is that Lelouch and Suzaku should really be in each other's shoes. Lelouch is the Britannian prince who should be wheeling and dealing within the Empire and willing to "play the game" so to speak to achieve his goals. Suzaku is the son of the last prime minister of Japan with uber combat skills who seems better suited to leading a guerrilla campaign to free his homeland.

It's not so much ironic as intentional; what you just described was essentially Code Geass's original script back before it lost its primetime timeslot and had to have the script re-written.

The role reversal is to show what happens when everything is backwards.

[Major1138]

It's not so much ironic as intentional; what you just described was essentially Code Geass's original script back before it lost its primetime timeslot and had to have the script re-written.

The role reversal is to show what happens when everything is backwards.

I did not know that was the original premise behind the show. I always thought the role reversal was intentional - I recall reading that the casting of Lelouch and Suzaku was done with that in mind.

Although I have noticed that both Lelouch and Suzaku seem to be growing into their current roles. I can't quite picture the Lelouch of season 1 thinking about getting the gang back together at Ashford to shoot off fireworks when it's all over, and even though it was obviously a ploy to get out of Japan and spare Nunnally from further bloodshed, I suspect Lelouch wasn't entirely acting when he said that what makes the Japanese people a nation isn't land or territory but a shared heart and culture.

As for Suzaku, vowing to change the system from the inside at any cost - even if it means selling out your former best friend, or do all kinds of bastardly things (Refrain and Kallen anyone? Although I wouldn't be surprised if his plan was something other than the obvious), sounds like something Lelouch would consider doing.

[Silver Soul]

I did not know that was the original premise behind the show. I always thought the role reversal was intentional - I recall reading that the casting of Lelouch and Suzaku was done with that in mind.

Although I have noticed that both Lelouch and Suzaku seem to be growing into their current roles. I can't quite picture the Lelouch of season 1 thinking about getting the gang back together at Ashford to shoot off fireworks when it's all over, and even though it was obviously a ploy to get out of Japan and spare Nunnally from further bloodshed, I suspect Lelouch wasn't entirely acting when he said that what makes the Japanese people a nation isn't land or territory but a shared heart and culture.

As for Suzaku, vowing to change the system from the inside at any cost - even if it means selling out your former best friend, or do all kinds of bastardly things (Refrain and Kallen anyone? Although I wouldn't be surprised if his plan was something other than the obvious), sounds like something Lelouch would consider doing.

Yeah throughout history we always treated our enemies with respect and gave them perfect living conditions :rolleyes: Lelouch pretty much betrayed Suzaku and everyone one of his friends trust by biding by another life and Kallen would of pretty much killed any of her friends if her secret would of gotten out so what makes them any better than Suzaku

[thedonkiluminati]

Yeah throughout history we always treated our enemies with respect and gave them perfect living conditions :rolleyes: Lelouch pretty much betrayed Suzaku and everyone one of his friends trust by biding by another life and Kallen would of pretty much killed any of her friends if her secret would of gotten out so what makes them any better than Suzaku

You seem to have an issue when somebody says anything remotely negative about Suzaku. Futhermore he didn't say they were any better than Suzaku.

[Silver Soul]

You seem to have an issue when somebody says anything remotely negative about Suzaku. Futhermore he didn't say they were any better than Suzaku.

What you fail to realize is how people are criticizing him due to him turning Lelouch in to the Emperor and the refrain incident with Kallen and you expect him to turn the other cheek just because they're friends, now that' incredible stupid if you know someone was involved with illegal activities that threaten peoples lives you would give them the benefit of the doubt, sure but if they continue (like he did with Kallen to drop ot of the order several times in S1) and if they don't you send them to justice, as far as I'm concern if Cornelia or Calares were still General Governor she would have been dead. But I guess a little Refrain is worse than death :rolleyes:

[thedonkiluminati]

What you fail to realize is how people are criticizing him due to him turning Lelouch in to the Emperor and the refrain incident with Kallen and you expect him to turn the other cheek just because they're friends, now that' incredible stupid if you know someone was involved with illegal activities that threaten peoples lives you would give them the benefit of the doubt, sure but if they continue (like he did with Kallen to drop ot of the order several times in S1) and if they don't you send them to justice, as far as I'm concern if Cornelia or Calares were still General Governor she would have been dead. But I guess a little Refrain is worse than death :rolleyes:

Just because worse things could happen to Kallen doesn't mean giving her refrain isn't bad. It's ok for Suzaku to be criticized just it's ok for Lelouch to be.

[DarkLordOfkichiku]

What you fail to realize is how people are criticizing him due to him turning Lelouch in to the Emperor and the refrain incident with Kallen and you expect him to turn the other cheek just because they're friends, now that' incredible stupid if you know someone was involved with illegal activities that threaten peoples lives you would give them the benefit of the doubt, sure but if they continue (like he did with Kallen to drop ot of the order several times in S1) and if they don't you send them to justice, as far as I'm concern if Cornelia or Calares were still General Governor she would have been dead. But I guess a little Refrain is worse than death :rolleyes:

Depends on how far he takes it, really. And forcing someone to take drugs isn't soemthing to be taken lightly either. I can agree that in one aspect, Kallen has herself to blame for her situation: As Lelocuh says, only those who are prepared to get shoot may shoot, so in short, if you ain't prepared for the worst, don't do it. Still, does he really need to take it this far? As the situation looks, Kallen'd likely be imprisoned for life for her "crimes" as Britannia label them. Isn't that enough punishment for a "criminal" already? Why take it so far as to drugs/torture this way? I don't see a problem with Suzaku capturing Kallen or Lelouch, that's in accordance with his Lawful character, but if he goes as far as torture/drug usage for it, then that IS a minus/villain point for his character...

[Silver Soul]

Depends on how far he takes it, really. And forcing someone to take drugs isn't soemthing to be taken lightly either. I can agree that in one aspect, Kallen has herself to blame for her situation: As Lelocuh says, only those who are prepared to get shoot may shoot, so in short, if you ain't prepared for the worst, don't do it. Still, does he really need to take it this far? As the situation looks, Kallen'd likely be imprisoned for life for her "crimes" as Britannia label them. Isn't that enough punishment for a "criminal" already? Why take it so far as to drugs/torture this way? I don't see a problem with Suzaku capturing Kallen or Lelouch, that's in accordance with his Lawful character, but if he goes as far as torture/drug usage for it, then that IS a minus/villain point for his character...

Well the main point is that he hasn't drugged her yet but I see what your going I made a major facepalm when I saw that scene and just said come on Suzaku your pulling this mess again, didn't you learn anything from Shirley :frustrated:

[Hari Michiru]

Well the main point is that he hasn't drugged her yet but I see what your going I made a major facepalm when I saw that scene and just said come on Suzaku your pulling this mess again, didn't you learn anything from Shirley :frustrated:

I wanted to bitch slap him for suggesting that. :mad:

[Silver Soul]

Just because worse things could happen to Kallen doesn't mean giving her refrain isn't bad. It's ok for Suzaku to be criticized just it's ok for Lelouch to be.

So your saying massacring a potentially evil organization is better than drugging a wanted criminal (POW, terrorist, etc.) for information regarding their ring leader so he can bring him to justice and be at ease

[DarkLordOfkichiku]

Well the main point is that he hasn't drugged her yet but I see what your going I made a major facepalm when I saw that scene and just said come on Suzaku your pulling this mess again, didn't you learn anything from Shirley :frustrated:

True, he hasn't done so yet and I rather hope he doesn't - and not just because I like Kallen but also because I don't want to lose the respect I do have for Suzaku (FYI, I don't exactly agree with the way he does things and think he's overly optimistic/naive on that part - changing Britannia that's it -, but rest assured: I don't hate Suzaku... yet)

We're getting off-topic though (This is the Lelouch thread after all, not the Suzaku thread)... :heh:

[thedonkiluminati]

So your saying massacring a potentially evil organization is better than drugging a wanted criminal (POW, terrorist, etc.) for information regarding their ring leader so he can bring him to justice and be at ease

Whoops, should say that it's ok for Suzaku to be criticized just as it's ok for Lelouch to be.

[yezhanquan]

Cross-posting from the Suzaku thread: I wonder how Lulu will feel if he sees a dead Nunnally being cradled by Suzaku after the nuke strike (if there is one)?

[Silver Soul]

Cross-posting from the Suzaku thread: I wonder how Lulu will feel if he sees a dead Nunnally being cradled by Suzaku after the nuke strike (if there is one)?

TRUE DEMON END:D with swimming lessons

[DarkLordOfkichiku]

Cross-posting from the Suzaku thread: I wonder how Lulu will feel if he sees a dead Nunnally being cradled by Suzaku after the nuke strike (if there is one)?

I'm guessing that he would think that Suzaku has failed him; he entrusted Nunnally to Suzaku to protect and Suzaku failed in doing that, so... :uhoh:

[thedonkiluminati]

I think he would crack and go crazy.

[Silver Soul]

I think he would crack and go crazy.

Swimming Lessons:p

[Bennyswan]

I would honestly cry laughing if the anime ended with Lelouch doing the swimming lessons thing

[orangejuicetang]

what the hell is this swimming lessons thing?

[Silver Soul]

what the hell is this swimming lessons thing?

Watch the last episode of Death Note for your answer or just search for Death Note swimming lessons to save you some time
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...2954508286.gif

[Diedrupo]

I like Lelouch's evil mode, but I've got issues with him killing his siblings(if can be avoided anyway). The one thing I got from the first season and the sound episodes is that with the exception of Carrine or what ever that new princess's name was, the royal siblings geuinely cared for one another. So him going killing those who mourned his death doesn't sit right with me.

Yeah, this bothers me too. However, Lelouch wouldn't be Lelouch if he hadn't committed these evil acts. :)

[Silver Soul]

Yeah, this bothers me to. However, Lelouch wouldn't be Lelouch if he hadn't committed these evil acts. :)

But the real question is would he get off scott free imagine the geass similar to a drug or truth serum mind you considering that yes the effects are ever lasting regardless but than people want to freak out when Suzaku supposedly threatens Kallen with a drug even though Lelouch as been supposedly drugging people the entire time

[ZeroSama]

But the real question is would he get off scott free imagine the geass similar to a drug or truth serum mind you considering that yes the effects are ever lasting regardless but than people want to freak out when Suzaku supposedly threatens Kallen with a drug even though Lelouch as been supposedly drugging people the entire time

If Lulu geass some one into answeing a question there is no long term physcological or physiological consequences however.

Now don't get me wrong geassing someone is still a bad thing but it is not detrimental to said persons health like refrain is. Although to be fair at least Suzaku isn't using some of the more exotic drugs(schorpalimine?) that are much more effective but would leave Kallen as a vegetable. He's not a completely heartless bastard.

[Diedrupo]

But the real question is would he get off scott free imagine the geass similar to a drug or truth serum mind you considering that yes the effects are ever lasting regardless but than people want to freak out when Suzaku supposedly threatens Kallen with a drug even though Lelouch as been supposedly drugging people the entire time

I'm really confused as to how this pertains to the discussion of Lelouch killing his siblings. It doesn't matter if he uses geass or not, he killed two of his siblings and plans to kill more as part of his revenge plan.

[Var]

I'm really confused as to how this pertains to the discussion of Lelouch killing his siblings. It doesn't matter if he uses geass or not, he killed two of his siblings and plans to kill more as part of his revenge plan.

It should be noted that the ascension to the Britannian throne is one of bloodshed. It is required for one to kill his siblings to rise to power in Britannia, hence the Darwinism based Society.

It is known that Charles had to kill a large number of his siblings to become the Emperor.

So Lelouch's revenge plan overlaps with the (no pun intended) natural selection for succession to the throne. In a way, one can argue that there is as much justification in his killings as there is in Charles' killings to gain power. If one is unjustified then none are justified. In such, Lelouch is indeed keeping with his birth right, while Suzaku did not.

[Orga777]

Now don't get me wrong geassing someone is still a bad thing but it is not detrimental to said persons health like refrain is.

Until they are ordered to shoot themselves right?:confused:

[SoldierOfDarkness]

It should be noted that the ascension to the Britannian throne is one of bloodshed. It is required for one to kill his siblings to rise to power in Britannia, hence the Darwinism based Society.

It is known that Charles had to kill a large number of his siblings to become the Emperor.

So Lelouch's revenge plan overlaps with the (no pun intended) natural selection for succession to the throne. In a way, one can argue that there is as much justification in his killings as there is in Charles' killings to gain power. If one is unjustified then none are justified. In such, Lelouch is indeed keeping with his birth right, while Suzaku did not.

If it's bloodshed then they are doing a pretty bad job of it given the fact that Charles has probably been ruling for over 20 years now and none of his kids have killed each other. In fact more or less they loved each other and the only one axing them off is Lelouch. The rest are either neutral or just work together.

[morbosfist]

Social Darwinism doesn't necessarily have to be one of bloodshed. The Emperor chose that route, but his kids clearly haven't.

[Var]

Social Darwinism doesn't necessarily have to be one of bloodshed. The Emperor chose that route, but his kids clearly haven't.

I meant birthrite in following his father's footsteps.

[Orga777]

I meant birthrite in following his father's footsteps.

Then Lelouch is just proving he is no better. So he already has failed in his mission really. Replacing one tyrant with another is not good at all.

[Rising Dragon]

All I can say is that whatever happens at the Sword of Akasha, its not gonna end in some big understanding between father and son. When the episode ends, Lelouch will still be against Britannia and begin fighting back starting with Tokyo. If everything WAS cool between him and Charles at the Sword, then I don't think the United States Alliance will begin a major battle, but find more peaceful methods to find resolution.

[Var]

Then Lelouch is just proving he is no better. So he already has failed in his mission really. Replacing one tyrant with another is not good at all.

These last few episodes have made me wonder just how evil Charles actually is.

And I am not saying it is good, but that Britannian history has justified the methods Charles used to take power, as such has justified Lelouch methods to seek power.

[Yorae_paladin1]

Then Lelouch is just proving he is no better. So he already has failed in his mission really. Replacing one tyrant with another is not good at all.

Yah all his talk about justice and helping the weak will be a lie if he ends like his daddy.

[ChainLegacy]

One must admit that in recent episodes, Lelouch has made some 'mistakes.' I am still a stalwart supporter of him, I have always sympathized with his situation and I enjoy seeing his plans in action. Then again, I have always been a sucker for the anti-hero type (which somewhat describes Lelouch).

I don't think he has ever been completely sincere in his remarks about helping others, he is a politician at heart. He has always seemed to me like a calculating and neutral leader, and manipulating others is one of his specialties (even without his Geass). Having him be emotionally driven, at times, especially in recent episodes, makes him a better character, in my opinion - he has a pretty good balance of the cold and off-standing leader whilst still being emotionally attached.

[nicksez4]

He was incredibly intelligent often challenging his older siblings, Clovis and Schneizel to chess matches; remaining undefeated to Clovis while it is hinted that Schneizel proved a difficult match for him.

Not like it really matters, but I do want to point out that in one of the more recent episodes,

During the party, Lelouch challenges Schneizel to a game of chess. During this game, Lelouch thinks back to when he would face his siblings (not a flashback), and thinks about how Schneizel was the only one he could not defeat.

Not too important, just figured a small change wouldn't hurt.

One thing that I wonder is:

How will Shirley's death affect Lelouch's character? Obviously in episode 14, he immediately sent out an attack squad to destroy all the people who can use Geass, but after he confront's Charles, how is he going to act? Assuming he has to resume school life soon, if his maid continues to act like she did, somewhere along the line, someone is bound to be suspicious.

Anyway, that's just a thought that came to mind. Lelouch is an overall awesome character.

[Aquaman OS]

I don't think he cares about school life anymore. There's little point in going back to Ashford since only Rivalz is there and Nunnally is no longer a hostage. Plus the fact is the Emperor already knows who he is and always did, he isn't fooling anybody and is most likely going to be told just that next ep.

Note that Lelouch took everybody to China with him, Villetta Rolo and Sayoko. He's more or less done being Lelouch Lamperouge. Now he's either Zero or Lelouch vi Britannia. He's got no more reason to hide as the cats already out of the bag and always has been. It's just about time for action. Presumably whatever Lelouch sees next ep will shake him to his core and change his attitude.

[nicksez4]

I don't think he cares about school life anymore.

Well, other than Charles, there's also the 7 Knights of Round to defeat, and anyone else who could succeed Charles. He would have to keep up the facade, or his cover would be blown, and he would be assaulted by them all immediately.

Plus the fact is the Emperor already knows who he is and always did, he isn't fooling anybody and is most likely going to be told just that next ep.

Even though Charles knows that Lelouch is Zero, Suzaku has a very good suspicion, but he doesn't know exactly if it is him or not due to Lelouch's maid taking his place during Zero-type events. Anya and Gino were moved to Ashford because of the suspicion, which means its still not 100% positive to anyone other than Charles, CC, and Kallen that Lelouch is Zero.

[Aquaman OS]

No Gino went to Ashford to have fun and chill with Suzaku, and Anya went to question Lelouch about why she had a picture of him. Neither of them had any clue about Zero.

And what does it matter if they know anyway? As long as he's with the Order he'll have an equal chance of being captured or killed whether they know he's Zero or not. He has no reason to be at Ashford anymore.

Nunnally is no longer in direct danger and she has Suzaku Anya and Gilford looking out for her, so it doesn't matter anyway. She's not a helpless hostage like he thought she was.

They sent Jeremiah to him, and he only lucked out that Jeremiah was more loyal to his mother than the Cult. But either way he knows they know now. There's no longer any point for him at Ashford (and really since neither Milly Shirley or Kallen will be there anymore its not like it will be interesting there anyway)

So lets just spare ourselves the boredom and move on.

[nicksez4]

Well, I see your point, just one quick thing...



They sent Jeremiah to him, and he only lucked out that Jeremiah was more loyal to his mother than the Cult.

VV was the only one who even mentioned Lelouch was Zero to Jeremiah. They never sent him, he went of his own free will. You are right about him being more loyal to Marianne, but he wanted revenge against Lelouch, which is why he went after him.

[ZeroSama]

Until they are ordered to shoot themselves right?:confused:

I was refering to geass as a method of interrogation in response to the previous poster. If used for questioning it has no drawbacks other than a slight memory inconsistency.

Drugs on the other hand will either lead to physiological or phscyological dependency(refrain) or just result in turning the person being interrogated into a vegetable(if a proper truth serum like scophalimine is used).

Then Lelouch is just proving he is no better. So he already has failed in his mission really. Replacing one tyrant with another is not good at all.

It does not change the fact that from a Britannian perspective what he is doing is an acceptable method. The road to the throne is based on proving that you are the most successful and therefore the most suitable candidate. By killing all his rival's he is proving that he is the superior one, whether it be because of resourcefullness, intelliegence or guile. This is likely how the sucessor to the throne has always been chosen.

And I am not saying it is good, but that Britannian history has justified the methods Charles used to take power, as such has justified Lelouch methods to seek power.

His methods are perfectly justifiable. Suzaku may have a problem if the Emperor admits that the methods Lulu is using are an acceptable method for claiming the throne. Hell it would be great if Lulu ended up on the throne and Suzaku, being the Britannian dog that he is had to follow all his orders with a "yes your majesty" for ironies sake.

[Aquaman OS]

V.V. sent him. Against Charles orders but he sent him as he said on Ep 14. Jeremiah only went to see exactly what Lelouch's deal was but he was still informed about Lelouch by V.V. as his first scene this season shows.

So yeah Lelouch knew his cover was compromised when Jeremiah showed up. That might be why he didn't even bother trying in ep 14. He took everyone involved with him and disappeared to China not even showing up for Shirley's funeral or telling anybody where he went. He took Sayoko too despite her not participating in the mission or having a point in coming with him. Why wouldn't he have her cover for him unless he knew it was pointless. The fact that he brought Sayoko too suggests he doesn't plan on going back.

[nicksez4]

V.V. sent him. Against Charles orders but he sent him as he said on Ep 14. Jeremiah only went to see exactly what Lelouch's deal was but he was still informed about Lelouch by V.V. as his first scene this season shows.

So yeah Lelouch knew his cover was compromised when Jeremiah showed up. That might be why he didn't even bother trying in ep 14. He took everyone involved with him and disappeared to China not even showing up for Shirley's funeral or telling anybody where he went. He took Sayoko too despite her not participating in the mission or having a point in coming with him. Why wouldn't he have her cover for him unless he knew it was pointless. The fact that he brought Sayoko too suggests he doesn't plan on going back.

Im not sure V.V. even sent him, but ill take your word for it.

as for why he didn't try to hide it: The people he was talking to already knew he was zero, so he had no reason to hide it. Also, a reason why he may not have show up for Shirley's funeral (a reason he could use that is) is he was over come with grief, or something to that effect. He never tells anyone where he's going though, so that's not an issue. I will admit though, he may not be going back since he took Sayoko, but I won't say that's a definate till I see it happen.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Im not sure V.V. even sent him, but ill take your word for it.

Charles, "Brother, is it true you sent an assassin after Lelouch?"

VV, "Thanks to that I invited this reprisal."

I think that's concrete enough.

[Diedrupo]

These last few episodes have made me wonder just how evil Charles actually is.

Yep, they have done a really good job painting Charles as completely misunderstood on pretty much everything. Sure he's racist/darwinist, but that's not a trait to really hate him on. He seems to hate war, despise V.V.'s attempt to kill Lelouch, and most importantly, when he did have the chance to deal with Lelouch, he did the most merciful thing he could have done: wiped Lelouch's memories and allowed him to return to a normal happy school life. Any other evil emperor would have executed or imprisoned him.

Perhaps Charles KNOWS that it might be time for him to step aside, and his master plan has been to groom Lelouch all this time? (I could even mention Marianne being alive and partaking in this entire thing for the same reason, but that'd be a huge copout plot twist that I would hate).


His methods are perfectly justifiable. Suzaku may have a problem if the Emperor admits that the methods Lulu is using are an acceptable method for claiming the throne. Hell it would be great if Lulu ended up on the throne and Suzaku, being the Britannian dog that he is had to follow all his orders with a "yes your majesty" for ironies sake.

They are justified from a birthright and throne ascension standpoint, but that isn't anything like what Suzaku is or was fighting for, which is peace. I don't even see why Var has to go and invalidate Suzaku's cause because Lelouch is the only one (of the two) justified in killing his siblings on the way to the throne. Lelouch may be unknowingly fighting to become the next emperor but Suzaku certainly isn't.

And that ending wouldn't be ironic, it would be what Lelouch would want. He has no real reason to hate Suzaku, as other than stopping him from killing certain important characters throughout S1, Suzaku hasn't done anything to cause emotional pain to Lelouch (that he is aware of). He'd rather Suzaku come back to his side.

[demon_god04]

Then Lelouch is just proving he is no better. So he already has failed in his mission really. Replacing one tyrant with another is not good at all.

And you are sure that Lelouch is looking for form another dictatorship? He wanted to change Britannia because it was rotten and cannot be changed. It if doubtful he will set up the same system with the same flaws.

[Var]

They are justified from a birthright and throne ascension standpoint, but that isn't anything like what Suzaku is or was fighting for, which is peace. I don't even see why Var has to go and invalidate Suzaku's cause because Lelouch is the only one (of the two) justified in killing his siblings on the way to the throne. Lelouch may be unknowingly fighting to become the next emperor but Suzaku certainly isn't.

Wait, how did I get into this as invalidating Suzaku? My point is that, if looked at from the ascension point of view, Lelouch's killings of his siblings are justified by Britannian History. I do not remember saying anything about Suzaku's cause, I said that Suzaku is going against his birthright, while Lelouch was not.

Suzaku's cause is 'noble' on the outside, but for the vast majority of Season 1, he had a martyr complex so that he could find justification for what he had done. Now, I can argue that his objective has been corrupted by the system. His recent actions are making me believe it more and more. Suzaku is slowly losing his Japanese side, his birthright, and becoming a Britannian. Nonetheless, I've never mentioned anything about his cause, just his own fate.

Lelouch, on the other hand, is following in his father's footsteps. But unlike Charles, as we saw in Ep.14, he is disillusioned to being able to change Britannia, he, like his father, has come to understand that everything must be destroyed for the rot in the system to be removed.

Take Charles as the embodiment of both Lelouch and Suzaku, with Suzaku's intention, but Lelouch's methods. It shows that Lelouch's methods are successful, but it shows that Suzaku's intention, while noble, is doomed.

The roles being played are similar to the Bulsheviks and the Mensheviks during the early 1900s of Russia/USSR.

And that ending wouldn't be ironic, it would be what Lelouch would want. He has no real reason to hate Suzaku, as other than stopping him from killing certain important characters throughout S1, Suzaku hasn't done anything to cause emotional pain to Lelouch (that he is aware of). He'd rather Suzaku come back to his side.

Lelouch does not want power, that is why he has Kaguya and other leaders around him. He is the mastermind but he will recede from the stage once the job is done, that is why he is an idea in the form of Zero. He does not want power once the job is done.

You must have missed Ep.11 when Lelouch cursed Suzaku. :heh:

[bladeofdarkness]

Wait, how did I get into this as invalidating Suzaku? My point is that, if looked at from the ascension point of view, Lelouch's killings of his siblings are justified by Britannian History. I do not remember saying anything about Suzaku's cause, I said that Suzaku is going against his birthright, while Lelouch was not.

Suzaku's cause is 'noble' on the outside, but for the vast majority of Season 1, he had a martyr complex so that he could find justification for what he had done. Now, I can argue that his objective has been corrupted by the system. His recent actions are making me believe it more and more. Suzaku is slowly losing his Japanese side, his birthright, and becoming a Britannian. Nonetheless, I've never mentioned anything about his cause, just his own fate.

Lelouch, on the other hand, is following in his father's footsteps. But unlike Charles, as we saw in Ep.14, he is disillusioned to being able to change Britannia, he, like his father, has come to understand that everything must be destroyed for the rot in the system to be removed.

Take Charles as the embodiment of both Lelouch and Suzaku, with Suzaku's intention, but Lelouch's methods. It shows that Lelouch's methods are successful, but it shows that Suzaku's intention, while noble, is doomed.

The roles being played are similar to the Bulsheviks and the Mensheviks during the early 1900s of Russia/USSR.



Lelouch does not want power, that is why he has Kaguya and other leaders around him. He is the mastermind but he will recede from the stage once the job is done, that is why he is an idea in the form of Zero. He does not want power once the job is done.

You must have missed Ep.11 when Lelouch cursed Suzaku. :heh:


or ep 5 when he used nanali as a tool against him

[DN24]

After Lelouch little talk with C.C about how geass is the power of king so he alone has geass is enough and you guys still think he has nothing for power?

Suzaku is slowly losing his Japanese side, his birthright, and becoming a Britannian

How is becoming a little dark count as losing his Japanese side? the Japanese were not exactly angels,were they? And theirs leaders were not a very honorable group either.

He is the mastermind but he will recede from the stage once the job is done, that is why he is an idea in the form of Zero. He does not want power once the job is done

Did he tell anyone that he doesn't want power when it is done? No.
Personally,I think if his plan succeeded and he destroys Britania then withdraw,he's a fool to think the world will become peaceful after that.He'll need power to maintain the peace he created and that will automatically make him a dictator of some sort..

[Yorae_paladin1]

After Lelouch little talk with C.C about how geass is the power of king so he alone has geass is enough and you guys still think he has nothing for power?



How is becoming a little dark count as losing his Japanese side? the Japanese were not exactly angels,were they? And theirs leaders were not a very honorable group either.



Did he tell anyone that he doesn't want power when it is done? No.
Personally,I think if his plan succeeded and he destroys Britania then withdraw,he's a fool to think the world will become peaceful after that.He'll need power to maintain the peace he created and that will automatically make him a dictator of some sort..

I agree the japanese goverment in its hey day was not a nice one especially with the economic oppression they did to other countries when they held full control of sakurudite sure it made japan richer but at everyone else expense. Abd they foolishly messed with a super power and paid the price.

And yah lelouch needs power to keep his peace whihc means it won't last when he goes so does his work.

[demon_god04]

After Lelouch little talk with C.C about how geass is the power of king so he alone has geass is enough and you guys still think he has nothing for power?

How is becoming a little dark count as losing his Japanese side? the Japanese were not exactly angels,were they? And theirs leaders were not a very honorable group either.

Did he tell anyone that he doesn't want power when it is done? No.
Personally,I think if his plan succeeded and he destroys Britania then withdraw,he's a fool to think the world will become peaceful after that.He'll need power to maintain the peace he created and that will automatically make him a dictator of some sort..

Lelouch was saying that if Geass was the power of the king then it is enough that only he will have that power. He is not so much hung up on the power as saying if it has to exist then he will be the one to have it rather then a bunch of unknown factors.

Suzaku is starting to lose his sense of self in being on the Britannian side. The only thing he really had was his moral highground that he based himself on, changing the system from within works when you stay true to yourself and not let the system change you. By using whatever means necessary to gain results he is being no better then Zero whom he condemns for his methods.

Lelouch is going to build a new system from the ashes of Britannia, he'll likely build a system that will survive even after he is gone. Remember, what he said to Kallen about returning to Ashford after everything is over? I see that has more of him asking her to return to their previous lives with their friends after everything is over. Meaning he does not intend to seize power for himself.

And really dictators are not inherently bad, only when they abuse their power and oppress their people.

[orangejuicetang]

Refresh my memory. What did he say to Kallen about returning to Ashford after everything is over? I don't remember that.

[DN24]

Lelouch is going to build a new system from the ashes of Britannia, he'll likely build a system that will survive even after he is gone. Remember, what he said to Kallen about returning to Ashford after everything is over? I see that has more of him asking her to return to their previous lives with their friends after everything is over. Meaning he does not intend to seize power for himself.


Lelouch is changing things by force,he's not changing anyone mind and to build a new system where people truly respect each other regardless of their races,religions...he need to change people mindand it will take a very very long time I don't think he could ever return to Ashford unless he continue his double life

[DarkLordOfkichiku]

Refresh my memory. What did he say to Kallen about returning to Ashford after everything is over? I don't remember that.

Well, when she asked why he came back, he said "Kallen, will you come back to Ashford with me when everything is over? I -" at which point he got interrupted by C.C., if I remember correctly :heh:

[Yorae_paladin1]

Lelouch was saying that if Geass was the power of the king then it is enough that only he will have that power. He is not so much hung up on the power as saying if it has to exist then he will be the one to have it rather then a bunch of unknown factors.

Suzaku is starting to lose his sense of self in being on the Britannian side. The only thing he really had was his moral highground that he based himself on, changing the system from within works when you stay true to yourself and not let the system change you. By using whatever means necessary to gain results he is being no better then Zero whom he condemns for his methods.

Lelouch is going to build a new system from the ashes of Britannia, he'll likely build a system that will survive even after he is gone. Remember, what he said to Kallen about returning to Ashford after everything is over? I see that has more of him asking her to return to their previous lives with their friends after everything is over. Meaning he does not intend to seize power for himself.

And really dictators are not inherently bad, only when they abuse their power and oppress their people.

I know Lulu wanted to make things as they were but that is a pipe dream for the path he has taken. Shirley is gone, Milly has moved on, Suzaku and Nina are his enemies about the only ones left is Rivalz and kallen. So his wish is not gonna happen as he wnats it.

[DarkLordOfkichiku]

I know Lulu wanted to make things as they were but that is a pipe dream for the path he has taken. Shirley is gone, Milly has moved on, Suzaku and Nina are his enemies about the only ones left is Rivalz and kallen. So his wish is not gonna happen as he wnats it.

Well, he might at least succeed in gathering the survivors of it all for one last fireworks event, but that's about it... Still, that might 8I suppsoe) be what they meant with that he'd have a satisfactory ending: He'd not be able to save it all, but he might be able to salvage some pieces of happiness out of it all, sorta...

[Var]

After Lelouch little talk with C.C about how geass is the power of king so he alone has geass is enough and you guys still think he has nothing for power?

You must have missed the note about Geass being a curse. He wants to remove the power from the world, but if a king has to exist, he will take the burden of carrying the Geass.


How is becoming a little dark count as losing his Japanese side? the Japanese were not exactly angels,were they? And theirs leaders were not a very honorable group either.

Because he's not becoming a little dark, that is bullshit to say, he is becoming rotten just like the system. He is lying, subverting laws to fit himself, and undermining the rule and dream of the people he supposedly holds dear.


Did he tell anyone that he doesn't want power when it is done? No.
Personally,I think if his plan succeeded and he destroys Britania then withdraw,he's a fool to think the world will become peaceful after that.He'll need power to maintain the peace he created and that will automatically make him a dictator of some sort..

Unless he planned on ruling the world from school, then no. He didn't have plans on keeping power. As I said, that is why he has people like Kaguya around him. She is the one who will take up leadership when everything is done. If he wanted power, he'd have removed her and every other leader long ago.

[demon_god04]

Lelouch is changing things by force,he's not changing anyone mind and to build a new system where people truly respect each other regardless of their races,religions...he need to change people mindand it will take a very very long time I don't think he could ever return to Ashford unless he continue his double life

He's already started, he already has countries from the EU which have been at odds with the Chinese Federation both signing his charter for the alliance together.

I know Lulu wanted to make things as they were but that is a pipe dream for the path he has taken. Shirley is gone, Milly has moved on, Suzaku and Nina are his enemies about the only ones left is Rivalz and kallen. So his wish is not gonna happen as he wnats it.

As I said, I see it as more of a metaphorical sense that he wants to go back to leading a normal life with the rest of his friends. I don't take that promise literally as having everyone back at Ashford or something.

[Aquaman OS]

Lelouch is hopelessly optimistic if he thinks he can go back to a normal life after all thats happened. He can't. Nobody really can. The changes that will brought about by crushing Britannia will be massive (and if he doesn't do it right, terribly destructive as well).

Lelouch despite being very cunning and book smart has shown himself to be a complete idiot at times too particularly his insane mistrust of people and having little to no real understanding of people. This is one of the moments. He can't just fade into obscurity with Nunnally anymore. Now that she's a public figure that plan has pretty much gone down the tubes. I don't think Lelouch even knows what he wants anymore after everything thats happened in the last few eps. He might have a completely new outlook after what he sees in the World of C.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Yep, they have done a really good job painting Charles as completely misunderstood on pretty much everything. Sure he's racist/darwinist, but that's not a trait to really hate him on

If he was really racist Suzaku wouldn't have even gotten a position in the Knights of Round.

[quote]

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

If he was really racist Suzaku wouldn't have even gotten a position in the Knights of Round.

That's pretty much a common misconception; Charles isn't racist himself, but he doesn't care about racism in general. Hence racism runs rampant along with every other "-ism" out there in Britannia. It's the classic case of doing evil by doing nothing.

[demon_god04]

Lelouch is hopelessly optimistic if he thinks he can go back to a normal life after all thats happened. He can't. Nobody really can. The changes that will brought about by crushing Britannia will be massive (and if he doesn't do it right, terribly destructive as well).

Lelouch despite being very cunning and book smart has shown himself to be a complete idiot at times too particularly his insane mistrust of people and having little to no real understanding of people. This is one of the moments. He can't just fade into obscurity with Nunnally anymore. Now that she's a public figure that plan has pretty much gone down the tubes. I don't think Lelouch even knows what he wants anymore after everything thats happened in the last few eps. He might have a completely new outlook after what he sees in the World of C.

It may be a bit optimistic but the general public does not know who Zero is, he can still lead a normal life afterward should he choose to. Just because you think he can't does not mean he did not intend to.

Lelouch is playing a dangerous game, one that could mean the end for him and people he cares about should something go wrong. He would be a complete idiot to be trusting of everyone he meets. He does have a group of people he can trust althought for some like Diethard, it is more like he can trust him to act in a certain manner.

That is actually one of the reasons I think they may part ways at the end, Lelouch has been show to slowly let go of Nunally as his reason for living even though she is still very important to him. Nunally is starting to stand on her own without relying on her brother to protect her.

Lelouch has wanted what he always had, destruction of Britannia because it is rotten and cannot be fixed. He used to justify it with doing so for Nunally but now he is fighting for everyone. It is not that he doesn't know what he wants, but rather Shirley's death caused him to become blinded by his anger. Wait until Kallen comes back to sort him out again.

[Yorae_paladin1]

It may be a bit optimistic but the general public does not know who Zero is, he can still lead a normal life afterward should he choose to. Just because you think he can't does not mean he did not intend to.

Lelouch is playing a dangerous game, one that could mean the end for him and people he cares about should something go wrong. He would be a complete idiot to be trusting of everyone he meets. He does have a group of people he can trust althought for some like Diethard, it is more like he can trust him to act in a certain manner.

That is actually one of the reasons I think they may part ways at the end, Lelouch has been show to slowly let go of Nunally as his reason for living even though she is still very important to him. Nunally is starting to stand on her own without relying on her brother to protect her.

Lelouch has wanted what he always had, destruction of Britannia because it is rotten and cannot be fixed. He used to justify it with doing so for Nunally but now he is fighting for everyone. It is not that he doesn't know what he wants, but rather Shirley's death caused him to become blinded by his anger. Wait until Kallen comes back to sort him out again.

Possibly for kallen to give lelouch a good punch in the face to snap out of his rage.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

That's pretty much a common misconception; Charles isn't racist himself, but he doesn't care about racism in general. Hence racism runs rampant along with every other "-ism" out there in Britannia. .

Well he's a darwinist who believes that in order to get to the top you have to fight with what you got which is exactly what Marianne and Suzaku did. So yes he doesn't care about racisism in general.

The racist part comes from the lower caste that uses it to gloat themselves.

It's the classic case of doing evil by doing nothing

Or he may have already tried and it failed (Hence his speech in eps 14 about despite the fact he became king britannia is still rotten to the core).

[Aporia]

I just stumbled across this: "Lelouch from Code Geass provides a rare example of a heroic (well, anti-heroic) Magnificent Bastard. Any attempt to describe the extent of his magnificence would only undermine it. "
from: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagnificentBastard

So, I'd like to issue a challenge to Lelouch fans - describe the extent of his magnificence without undermining it. I'm sure it can be done, but I'm interested to see how it's done.

[Juvyniled]

So, I'd like to try to get back on topic by re-issuing my just for fun challenge, which has now been buried by nonsense. I'm not a Lelouch or a Suzaku partisan, this is unrelated to fan vs. fan sniping that apparently long predates me.



Maybe this is being overly cautious but magnificent here is not used in the sense of "omg let me kiss your feel Lulu if you only existed for real!" Follow the link if you're unclear, it will give the complete context.

If you opt to identify Lelouch as a villain, he must be labeled a hero as well. Lelouch would be a villain in the eyes of Britannian people, and a hero to Elevens. Either that, or you decide not to label him as either. He cannot simply be one or the other, as that is a huge indication of bias.

I suggest using the term protagonist because it is fitting.

[kk2extreme]

Lulu's new code name L.L. :p

[Witacume]

for get about love and his promises (plural) what the hell is lelouch going to do. The opening for the second half was way to optimistic. Lelouch is going down the crapper and fast. He is losing everything as evident in his speech at the 30 second preview. now what is he to do? After all the betrayals are done. who can he get a satisfying ending. This going to be a miracle after miracle episodes for lelouch.

[Dream_Traveller]

Director's word. You may call me what you will, but when Tanguchi says that Lelouch is going to get a decent ending, he'll get one.

Unless he's misleading us along with the second OP.

[Witacume]

I have finally back to earth and starting to think logically. He said he doesn't want anymore taken from him. but that is exactly what happen. and if the speculation comes true (some of it already has) he will be losing a lot more. Than he will go down the path of the Demon King. Something i did not want. but what are you going to do.

More plot twist will occur.

[Dream_Traveller]

...That's obvious? And what you don't want doesn't matter. Taniguchi and co are at the helm of Geass, not the fans.

[Chaos2Frozen]

After 15 episodes of losing Nunally to his father, losing Kallen to Suzaku, losing Shirley to Rollo, Lelouch finally manages to save (More or less) at least one girl in his important in his life.

Good job :nod: !

[Var]

After 15 episodes of losing Nunally to his father, losing Kallen to Suzaku, losing Shirley to Rollo, Lelouch finally manages to save (More or less) at least one girl in his important in his life.

Good job :nod: !

He lost C.C., the extended preview makes that point perfectly clear. He's lost everyone close to him now.

[KrimzonStriker]

He lost C.C., the extended preview makes that point perfectly clear. He's lost everyone close to him now.

Oh c'mon she's still there, maybe not as C.C but as (insert real name) but it still counts in a way :rolleyes:

[Var]

Oh c'mon she's still there, maybe not as C.C but as (insert real name) but it still counts in a way :rolleyes:

Therefore he lost C.C.. The person he knew is 'dead', this now whoever C.C. was before becoming C.C..

[morbosfist]

But in return he gets a girl with the body of a teenager and the mind of a ten-year-old who would sleep with him if he weren't so chivalrous.

She'll probably get her memories back before its over.

[Var]

She'll probably get her memories back before its over.

Which would mean her powers as well, most likely. So she'll discover love and be at peace finally?

[morbosfist]

One can only hope. To make both sides happy, maybe Lelouch will admit he loves her as she's dying then Kallen catches him on the rebound.

[Aquaman OS]

Once again Lelouch refuses to change despite the show repeating hitting him over the head that his method isn't really what he wants. This ep even said it outright. He has followers and territory but its not what he really wants.

[demon_god04]

One can only hope. To make both sides happy, maybe Lelouch will admit he loves her as she's dying then Kallen catches him on the rebound.

Kallen is too good to be a rebound girl. :p

[yezhanquan]

Once again Lelouch refuses to change despite the show repeating hitting him over the head that his method isn't really what he wants. This ep even said it outright. He has followers and territory but its not what he really wants.

I've always thought that Lulu was even more stuborn than 10 bulls put together. The only person I see that beats him in this department is Suzaku.

[Chaos2Frozen]

He lost C.C., the extended preview makes that point perfectly clear. He's lost everyone close to him now.


That why I said more or less.

But as long as she lives, things can change.

[Var]

That why I said more or less.

But as long as she lives, things can change.

Then he's not lost anything other than Shirley because they are all still alive.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Then he's not lost anything other than Shirley because they are all still alive.

Ah, but unlike the others, he still have C.C in his arms (figuratively speaking).

[Var]

Ah, but unlike the others, he still have C.C in his arms (figuratively speaking).

That's stretching it, Kallen is within reach and he's planning to get her, and Nunally is in a safe place.

[Chaos2Frozen]

That's stretching it, Kallen is within reach and he's planning to get her, and Nunally is in a safe place.

Again, they're not with him.


Anyway for all we know something horrible could happen to the both of them in mid way... (I'm just saying *shrug* they are behind enemy lines )

[Var]

Again, they're not with him.... Yet.

But he doesn't want Nunally with him because that is dangerous.


Anyway for all we know something horrible could happen to the both of them in mid way... (I'm just saying *shrug* they are behind enemy lines )

And the new ChiChi could also just die in a few episodes, since, you know, she's not immortal anymore.

[Chaos2Frozen]

But he doesn't want Nunally with him because that is dangerous.

That's why I removed my 'yet'.



And the new ChiChi could also just die in a few episodes, since, you know, she's not immortal anymore.

I know, at this point we're just throwing speculations at each other.


(But for the record, I don't think it'll happen :p)

[Aquaman OS]

He's also down yet another pilot since I doubt C.C. will be much use in that department for awhile.

[Var]

(But for the record, I don't thing it'll happen :p)

I do. :p But that's just me.

[demon_god04]

I do. :p But that's just me.

To be honest, I think that if they had intended to kill her they would have done so this episode. If they don't intend to use her for something I don't see why they kept her around.

[bbduece]

To be honest, I think that if they had intended to kill her they would have done so this episode. If they don't intend to use her for something I don't see why they kept her around.

They don't want to kill her in this episode because it leaves a cliffhanger which this show likes to do. For all we know she might be dead in ep16. And killing her in this episode to constitute the cliffhanger will be redundant since they did Shirley already.

[bladeofdarkness]

is it just me
or is lulu losing someone importent to him every odd numbered ep
11)kallen (she was captured in 10 but suzaku took her away in 11)
13)sherly
15)c.c (the c.c he knew is gone.like casca in berserk)

its also progresing with more pain every time
kallen was captured but he has hope of saving her
sherlys dead so no hope there
c.c is gone and yet she's still there for him to have to look after (might be more painful then if she died out right)

[Pathis87]

if i got a question :
1/ Now that CC has lost her memories or rather regained her human side , does Lelouch still have his geass ?
From the moment they were back from the world of C lelouch's both eyes were normal , but he could have taken his lens in so i am not quite sure he lost it or still has it .

[Kovensky]

Nobody is certain of that yet. Only the GOD DAMN TIME THAT IS SO DAMN SLOW will tell.

[ChocolateSwirls]

if i got a question :
1/ Now that CC has lost her memories or rather regained her human side , does Lelouch still have his geass ?
From the moment they were back from the world of C lelouch's both eyes were normal , but he could have taken his lens in so i am not quite sure he lost it or still has it .

Lol that means his lens were in his pocket? I think he lost it because C.C is now mortal therefore making Lelouch lose his geass, since the contract is now over? But i'm just guessing. So wait until Turn 16 we'll get the answers soon.

[amjzz]

Probably something irrelevant...but since milly left the ashford institute....isnt lelouch the new president of the student council/academy? (after all he was vice-president).

I wonder if anyone will notice he is missing at the academy...that would be fun.

However i doubt it, 10 episodes left and things are getting very interesting/dramatic.

[morbosfist]

Rivalz has already noticed Lelouch's absence, but he just figures he's skipping school.

[Rising Dragon]

Rivalz has already noticed Lelouch's absence, but he just figures he's skipping school.

Well, he doesn't see it as just "skipping school," Rivalz said that Shirley's death got to him.

Which is partially true.

[ZeroSama]

Well, he doesn't see it as just "skipping school," Rivalz said that Shirley's death got to him.

Which is partially true.

But then that doesn't explain Villeta's and Rolo's disappearing act. Villeta was known to have acted coldly towards her and Rolo didn't give a toss about anyone other than his nii-sama.

When the watchdogs disappear you know there's a problem with the bell.

[Rising Dragon]

But then that doesn't explain Villeta's and Rolo's disappearing act. Villeta was known to have acted coldly towards her and Rolo didn't give a toss about anyone other than his nii-sama.

When the watchdogs disappear you know there's a problem with the bell.

I was merely correcting what Morbofist said about Rivalz's reasoning, that's all.

[morbosfist]

Exactly. I was only generalizing, so the clarification is welcome. It's skipping school regardless of the reason, but the reason is a good one. Villetta disappearing is Lelouch's fault. Really, he's blackmailing her. He should know that she'll take off at the first chance.

[dr_patz]

He probably still have his Geass because he appeared on the new opening song with the Geass on.

[Kovensky]

But if he appeared in the OP without Geass that would raise suspicions...

If he lost his Geass, then the Geass in the opening is for nostalgia :)

[Rising Dragon]

Can any of you give me a legitimate reason why he would lose his Geass at all? Seriously, he's kinda fucked without it, this far into the show.

[morbosfist]

There are a couple of reasons. One, the next episode previews show it as conspicuously absent. Lelouch would have no need to hide it in front of Cornelia, whom he has used it on. Two, C.C. is without memory. As has been demonstrated, when Lelouch has his memory of their contract erased, his Geass goes with it. C.C. granted the power, so if she doesn't remember the contract, it should be the same.

[Rising Dragon]

It could be that Cornelia got Geassed by Jeremiah prior to the interrogation; and as such having the Geass unhindered would could mean problems. Also, since C.C. has lost her immortality and such, she too would be susceptible to the Geass and again, it would be bad to have it unhindered around her.

While I can see Lelouch losing his Geass, I can't see him losing it halfway through the season. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

[morbosfist]

Why would Jeremiah de-Geass Cornelia? There's no reason for him to do it.

[Rising Dragon]

Why would he un-Geass several city blocks of random bystanders?

Its just a speculation on Cornelia's part. If anything, it'd make Cornelia a bit more comfortable during the interrogation--after all, she doesn't know he can only Geass someone once without Jeremiah's aid.

Having the contact in while around C.C., however, is still a valid point.

[morbosfist]

Why would he un-Geass several city blocks of random bystanders?

Its just a speculation on Cornelia's part. If anything, it'd make Cornelia a bit more comfortable during the interrogation--after all, she doesn't know he can only Geass someone once without Jeremiah's aid.

Having the contact in while around C.C., however, is still a valid point.He un-Geassed several city blocks because each one had a suspected SP on it. There was reason to do it there. As for C.C., you may be right, but there are still more moments which indicate he lost it. There are several scenes where he's dressed as Zero, in which he doesn't wear the contact, that don't show it. Though it can't be said for certain, it's more likely than not.

[Blue_Mercy]

No changes to the official website to Lelouch unlike C.C. I would put it at 0-5% chance of Lelouch losing his geass.

[Dream_Traveller]

Or they're being secretive about it.

[Rising Dragon]

Or they're being secretive about it.

Again... why would they get rid of the only thing that allowed Lelouch to get him this far? Seriously, if he lost his Geass, he's not gonna win.

[bladeofdarkness]

Again... why would they get rid of the only thing that allowed Lelouch to get him this far? Seriously, if he lost his Geass, he's not gonna win.

lulu was planing to do all this without the geass
and the union of nations as well as the order of the black knights was formed without him geassing the people involved
this season he has been using the geass less and less (since the events of ep 7 he hardly ever uses it anymore)
and has made more and more progress
since ep 7 he used it on
1)some CF soldiers to ask them about xing-ke's plan
2)that miya chick who took his hat
3)the train guys (that might actually be of importence later on, but he could use other means)
4)2 cops to attack orenge so he could learn more about him
thats nothing when compered wit season 1 and the first 1/4 of season 2

plus
if he has the geass then he can crash any revolt within the OOBK in a heartbeat

[Orga777]

plus
if he has the geass then he can crash any revolt within the OOBK in a heartbeat

Problem there is that they would know about the Geass and would probably confront him in KMF's or over radio or something in fear of that. So yeah, I still think he has Geass.

[Caturdayz]

I doubt he is going to lose his geass, especially with Orange's geass cancel allowing him to re-geass his people he wasted it on.

But like bladeofdarkness said, he hasn't truly needed it recently. Other than those guards at the mall and his failed attempt to kill his father he hasn't used it much.

[bladeofdarkness]

the whole point is that he needs to lose as much as possible at this stage
lose everything he gained with lies
so the source of the lies itself is a good thing to lose

[Caturdayz]

Everything he is losing can be traced directly back to his geass and thus his contract with CC and his life of solidarity.

His loss is a trade-off for the power of the geass, just as it was explained when he received the gift.

What I am saying is, he isn't going to lose his geass because it was for the geass that these sacrifices had to be made.

[bladeofdarkness]

Everything he is losing can be traced directly back to his geass and thus his contract with CC and his life of solidarity.

His loss is a trade-off for the power of the geass, just as it was explained when he received the gift.

What I am saying is, he isn't going to lose his geass because it was for the geass that these sacrifices had to be made.



it was for his dreams and goals that the loses where made
the geass is a tool to gain these goals

[Caturdayz]

it was for his dreams and goals that the loses where made
the geass is a tool to gain these goals

While that is true, CC explicitly stated that the geass will lead you down a road of loneliness, whether or not your attribute his losses to his cause or the geass. One thing is certain, the geass only brings unhappiness in the end.

It hurt the nun, it hurt CC, it hurt Mao, it hurt Rolo, it's hurting Orange-kun, and now it is Lelouch's turn.

This pattern seems to suggest to me that the geass is packaged with unhappiness to counteract the amazing power involved.

[bladeofdarkness]

While that is true, CC explicitly stated that the geass will lead you down a road of loneliness, whether or not your attribute his losses to his cause or the geass. One thing is certain, the geass only brings unhappiness in the end.

It hurt the nun, it hurt CC, it hurt Mao, it hurt Rolo, it's hurting Orange-kun, and now it is Lelouch's turn.

This pattern seems to suggest to me that the geass is packaged with unhappiness to counteract the amazing power involved.


while the geass does lead you to the lonely road
its only once you lose the geass and get the CODE instead that you truly are alone
since it means losing the one person who would be closest to you up to that point (the code holder)
im guessing that he might have gotten the code from c.c (he did lose her , c.c is dead and the one left is not her)

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

While that is true, CC explicitly stated that the geass will lead you down a road of loneliness, whether or not your attribute his losses to his cause or the geass. One thing is certain, the geass only brings unhappiness in the end.

It hurt the nun, it hurt CC, it hurt Mao, it's hurting Orange-kun, and now it is Lelouch's turn.

This pattern seems to suggest to me that the geass is packaged with unhappiness to counteract the amazing power involved.

Maybe not that literally, but I think you are partly right.

The point about Geass is that it is a power which affected either one of two things; people's privacy or people's freedom. Mind control and mind reading are not considered pleasant powers in general.

And no matter what you do with it, you would still be violating human rights. You have control over someone else, and they have no say in it.

[Orga777]

while the geass does lead you to the lonely road
its only once you lose the geass and get the CODE instead that you truly are alone
since it means losing the one person who would be closest to you up to that point (the code holder)
im guessing that he might have gotten the code from c.c (he did lose her , c.c is dead and the one left is not her)

But if he took the code she would have been killed. That is what happened to V.V. and the Nun after all.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

But if he took the code she would have been killed. That is what happened to V.V. and the Nun after all.

I also believe that losing the Code is lethal. But to be honest, there is a chance that it might not be, and that it was a coincidence that the two known cases both died.

[bladeofdarkness]

But if he took the code she would have been killed. That is what happened to V.V. and the Nun after all.


v.v died from his wounds
and c.c killed the nun in self defense (thats why she got the scar)

and c.c is dead (the person she was)

[Orga777]

v.v died from his wounds
and c.c killed the nun in self defense (thats why she got the scar)

and c.c is dead (the person she was)

Good point. I was about to say how an immortal can die from his wounds, but if the Code is taken away, the wounds could kill him.... Great point! Interesting... Now we just have to wait and see if Lelouch still has his Geass or not to find out.

[bladeofdarkness]

Good point. I was about to say how an immortal can die from his wounds, but if the Code is taken away, the wounds could kill him.... Great point! Interesting... Now we just have to wait and see if Lelouch still has his Geass or not to find out.

two more days
long wait is long

[Caturdayz]

two more days
long wait is long

Seriously, I started episode one yesterday, I am used to watching 10-20 episodes in a row, waiting feels weird 0_o

[morbosfist]

C.C. had her throat slashed and such a scar couldn't be the product of self-defense wounds. The nun had to have killed her and transferred the Code.

[Orga777]

C.C. had her throat slashed and such a scar couldn't be the product of self-defense wounds. The nun had to have killed her and transferred the Code.

That ALSO makes sense... Since Charles shot himself, died, and then V.V. died because the code was transferred...<.<' But if that is the case, what happened to C.C.'s code here? How was it transferred? (if it was) And if it wasn't, how did she lose her memories?

[Caturdayz]

And if we killed the original CC, the farm girl, why are those memories still retained?

[Narona]

That ALSO makes sense... Since Charles shot himself, died, and then V.V. died because the code was transferred...<.<' But if that is the case, what happened to C.C.'s code here? How was it transferred? (if it was) And if it wasn't, how did she lose her memories?
We don't have any proof of this. In my opinion V.V.'s code was already transferred (The transfer was made when he was talking with charles). that's why his wounds didn't heal. He died because of his wounds. I think that C.C. was shocked to see that his wounds didn't heal at all.

And I think Charles made fun of Lelouch. Lelouch's geass didn't work on him. But it's just my opinion :p

Then he tried to geass him again, and the geass power got through charles' eyes again, and again it had no effect on his brain.

[ZeroSama]

If Lulu lost his geass then Suzaku would need to lose his lancelot to balance things out and i don't see this happening.

It would be stupid to take the geass away now that he hates it, i mean wtf was the point of getting Jerimiah on the team then? In season 1 it would be safe to assume he wanted a multi-use geass and now that he has Jerimiah he basically does, having him loathe the thing is the only way they could stop it becoming unbalanced. Hell the might as well power it up now after what happened to Shirely, i think he'll be quite hesitant of using it now after all the tragedy its caused. Having Jerimiah is basically dangling a juicy bone in front of him and seeing if he can resist.

Also story-wise him retaining the geass keeps the possibility open that he will suceed/replace his father. If he loses it that possibility is lost forever. I think the writers would want to keep it as open ended as possible to the last EP.

[morbosfist]

That ALSO makes sense... Since Charles shot himself, died, and then V.V. died because the code was transferred...<.<' But if that is the case, what happened to C.C.'s code here? How was it transferred? (if it was) And if it wasn't, how did she lose her memories?if we knew that, it wouldn't be as much fun. Likely its suppressed with her lost memories. I can only say for certain that C.C. didn't kill the nun. She was naked so I don't think she was packing a knife. The nun died peacefully, while C.C. was slumped against the pedestal covered in blood from a throat wound. She wouldn't have been fighting back once she was hit like that.

[bladeofdarkness]

if we knew that, it wouldn't be as much fun. Likely its suppressed with her lost memories. I can only say for certain that C.C. didn't kill the nun. She was naked so I don't think she was packing a knife. The nun died peacefully, while C.C. was slumped against the pedestal covered in blood from a throat wound. She wouldn't have been fighting back once she was hit like that.

peacefully ?
in a pool of blood coming out of her head ?
you sound like a M.E from some bad cop show
"she died of natural couses"
"she has a hole in the back of her head"
"its only natural to die from something like that"

[morbosfist]

I consider laying down and crossing ones arms in such a fashion peacefully. Remember, she wanted to die.

[bladeofdarkness]

I consider laying down and crossing ones arms in such a fashion peacefully. Remember, she wanted to die.

but she still didnt die by her self

[morbosfist]

C.C. wasn't in any condition to lay her out like so.

[bladeofdarkness]

C.C. wasn't in any condition to lay her out like so.

actually the single most effective way to kill someone is ironicly the easiest and simpleist way that any one would know instinctively and be able to do without any training what so ever
you bang their heads against the floor repetedly until they die
the result is a nice pool of blood on the floor while leaving no real signs of violence on the face (unless you hit them in the face before using this move or bang the face side of the head)

[morbosfist]

By that reasoning, C.C. must have killed the nun and slashed her own throat. The nun was clean, which means C.C. had to have been killed first and the nun killed herself second.

[bladeofdarkness]

By that reasoning, C.C. must have killed the nun and slashed her own throat. The nun was clean, which means C.C. had to have been killed first and the nun killed herself second.


dont know about that
all im saying that her death could have been and most likely was at the hands of c.c
i leave the CSI stuff to ...
well the CSI

[morbosfist]

They're about six centuries too late to investigate it.

[bladeofdarkness]

They're about six centuries too late to investigate it.



but their really REALLY REALLY good at it
they just might pull it off

[morbosfist]

but their really REALLY REALLY good at it
they just might pull it offYou're thinking of Cold Case, but yeah, they might do it.