Claymore Chapter 79 [Archive]

Pages : [1] 2 3 4

NoSanninWa

2008-04-30, 22:46

Welcome to the monthly discussion thread for Claymore, Chapter 79. It has been a long hard two months to wait since chapter 78 so I'm anticipating this chapter even more than usual... as I suspect you are also.

The thread was created before the chapter was published. Usually false spoilers start to appear early so (naturally) people always need a place to discuss them.

Thread Guidelines
Raw requests and offers are not permitted anywhere on this forum.
The Claymore manga is licensed by Viz so questions about scanlations or answers about scanlation are not allowed. Remember that AnimeSuki does not enable downloading of any licensed anime or manga.
Discuss your expectations of the chapter if it has not been published yet.
Be polite to your fellow forum members.
Please try to keep the discussion on topic.
Spoilers will not be policed in this thread, so if you haven't read the chapter yet, just stay out if you don't want to read spoilers.

Chapter 80 will probably be released on June 4th, a month from now. That's the usual release date, so I''ll create the new chapter 80 thread a few days before that... as usual.

Fenrir_valindri

2008-04-30, 22:49

This chapter just literally changed the playing field. I think some people might be upset over the revelations of this chapter, but I personally think it might be good overall for the storyline. The fact that we know a WHOLE lot more about the Organization is a huge deal. Miria finally let the cat out of the bag. :uhoh:

I can't wait for the translated chapter. :heh:

tenken627

2008-04-30, 22:51

Fenrir_valindri

2008-04-30, 22:52

No kidding, I'm still trying to sort my thoughts over the stuff revealed in this chapter, and my brain is still going a mile a minute reviewing everything that has happened that led up to this.

The scary thing is it fits in alot of missing pieces. :twitch:

yezhanquan

2008-04-30, 22:58

Been expecting something like this for a while. Expanding the world is a pretty good move.

germanturkey

2008-04-30, 22:58

ahh! i wanna read the spoilers, but i won't. it'll only be a day or two before the translated version comes out. i can fill the time with studying. fun fun.

Ryuken

2008-04-30, 22:59

yezhanquan

2008-04-30, 23:00

Now, we have another shadowy group on the other side of the world. Hope their leader's a girl.

I know how you feel. Never saw this one coming.:twitch:

I saw it coming. But instead of expanding on the world, my theory went up to the skies for an answer.

Fenrir_valindri

2008-04-30, 23:07

Well, I knew they would expand the world eventually, but this is still a far bigger leap then I expected. I knew that Miria's secret was big, but we never knew exactly how much she was aware of till now. :eyespin:

yogi6807

2008-04-30, 23:08

Spoiler for clarice. She actually stops crying around pg10

yezhanquan

2008-04-30, 23:09

The conviction with which she (Miria) says it makes it seem as if she has gone to the other side to take a look herself. Anyway, it's good that there's another band of people around for more plotting.

If they take one look at Prisicilla and go, "Not bad... seeing that it came from you guys (the MIB)." and proceed to throw her around like a ragdoll, we have issues coming.

Cyclone

2008-04-30, 23:12

Woohoo - finally no need to click on spoiler tags on each and every post!

I'm glad the Org is shaping up to be the final Boss instead of Pricilla. There's much more to hate with the organization than with her.

The thing that intrigues me most -- and I honestly do hate to bring this name into the first page already -- is where Teresa stood in the new power structure and just how much she knew. She obviously knew something - probably even most of it (hence the Org trying to dispose of her, rather than taking the hear no evil see no evil approach they took towards Ophelia). The fact she lied to her MiB in ES4 takes on a whole new significnce now.

I'm going to wait on at least the Japanese raw before starting to speculate in full though.

Wow though - that's even more of a bomb shell than I was hoping that Miria would drop. :)

Newhope

2008-04-30, 23:12

Seems like the frist 79 chapters where just the prelude to the real story.

yezhanquan

2008-04-30, 23:14

Well, the MIBs are working on their weapons. The other side must be working on theirs too.

Cyclone

2008-04-30, 23:16

If they take one look at Prisicilla and go, "Not bad... seeing that it came from you guys (the MIB)." and proceed to throw her around like a ragdoll, we have issues coming.

Heh - that would make Isley's "No one can stop Pricilla now" statement, quite a funny new addition to the "No, it cannot be - I am invincible!" last lines of fame. :D

Ryuken

2008-04-30, 23:18

Well, the MIBs are working on their weapons. The other side must be working on theirs too.

They are trying to cancel each other out, aren't they?:uhoh:

Fenrir_valindri

2008-04-30, 23:19

The first 79 chapters aren't a prelude, they are the entire basis for the story, just because the world expanded doesn't mean that the previous chapters all of a sudden became obsolete.

Just like the Abyssal Ones didn't make Priscilla and Teresa obsolete.

-----

As for the other side, it is quite possible they are winning the war and don't feel the need to go past what they have, or don't have the means to.

But unless Miria knows more, it is unlikely we will find out specifics until the other side reveals itself in full force, or the Organization spills the beans when they get taken care of.

or maybe Riful's big plan has something to do with this revelation.

As I stated in another post. If Alicia/Beth are what the Organization considers what they need to deal with their problems, then Riful, Isley, and especially Priscilla are still major players, if not the biggest ones.

yezhanquan

2008-04-30, 23:20

They are trying to cancel each other out, aren't they?:uhoh:

Well, if Miria hadn't dig up the story, I think that might be the situation. When you have two juggernauts of power banging head-on, it seems a bit weird to leave one side standing =X.

The previous chapters were heavy on the action. Time to let the talking catch up.

Newhope

2008-04-30, 23:22

Well, the MIBs are working on their weapons. The other side must be working on theirs too.

It all reminds me of the second world war 2 A-bomb race.

yezhanquan

2008-04-30, 23:23

It all reminds me of the second world war 2 A-bomb race.

Well, as someone has pointed out, the other side may not be getting their own bomb yet. But, I seriously doubt it. To have the MIBs as a rival means that you leave nothing to chance.

I think what the other side has may be a match to Isley and Priscilla combined, but barely. They will fight to a stalemate, but no one's getting anywhere, unless someone else jumps in to spoil the show.

Newhope

2008-04-30, 23:25

yezhanquan

2008-04-30, 23:28

Looks like the Great Game does exist in Claymore after all.

Fenrir_valindri

2008-04-30, 23:31

I came up with another on-the-spot theory.

The Organization created Yoma as a way to have a "mass-produced" monster that was obedient (as it is hinted the Org can control them) soldiers to help combat the "DoD."

This was only enough to slowdown the enemy, or perhaps even stalemate them (due to Yoma's doppleganger abilities) but the Organization still needs alot of muscle to take the enemy head on, thus the Claymores + AB.

Ideally the Awakened Beings are the power level the Organization is looking for to change the battlefield (along with normal Yoma) but they can't be controlled due to their feeding habits and massive power.

The Organization finds a loophole and discovers females don't awaken as quickly, and can be trained like soldiers.

Of course, on the front lines they probably start to hybridize people in the mainland to even out the front lines again (as the enemy might have found a way to counter normal Yoma) and they need the power that hybrid soldiers offer. Awakening is still a problem however.

So the Organization pursues this path, testing them against their previous creations (Yoma and the wild AB) and then slowly build them into more and more powerful weapons.

Teresa and Priscilla where good, but they needed weapons that were absolutely obedient and didn't have a chance of going out of control, or disobeying them.

and now they have found success in the improved soul-link program.

Powerful, and incredibly obedient weapons in the form of the Twins.

We haven't seen hide nor hair of Alicia and Beth since the time-skip, is it possible they are on the front-lines? or that what the Organization has learned from them is already in use there?

This crack pot theory brought to you by ME!!! :heh:

Edit: To Newhope;

True, but it just felt like you were making it sound negative, when it could very well be a good thing.

yezhanquan

2008-04-30, 23:32

I came up with another on-the-spot theory.

The Organization created Yoma as a way to have a "mass-produced" monster that was obedient (as it is hinted the Org can control them) soldiers to help combat the "DoD."

This was only enough to slowdown the enemy, or perhaps even stalemate them (due to Yoma's doppleganger abilities) but the Organization still needs alot of muscle to take the enemy head on, thus the Claymores + AB.

Ideally the Awakened Beings are the power level the Organization is looking for to change the battlefield (along with normal Yoma) but they can't be controlled due to their feeding habits and massive power.

The Organization finds a loophole and discovers females don't awaken as quickly, and can be trained like soldiers.

Of course, on the front lines they probably start to hybridize people in the mainland to even out the front lines again (as the enemy might have found a way to counter normal Yoma) and they need the power that hybrid soldiers offer. Awakening is still a problem however.

So the Organization pursues this path, testing them against their previous creations (Yoma and the wild AB) and then slowly build them into more and more powerful weapons.

Teresa and Priscilla where good, but they needed weapons that were absolutely obedient and didn't have a chance of going out of control, or disobeying them.

and now they have found success in the improved soul-link program.

Powerful, and incredibly obedient weapons in the form of the Twins.

We haven't seen hide nor hair of Alicia and Beth since the time-skip, is it possible they are on the front-lines? or that what the Organization has learned from them is already in use there?

This crack pot theory brought to you by ME!!! :heh:

Crack pot? Nice one, I say. I can just imagine the twins heavily battered at the front lines in next month's chapter. The commander of the other side go "We give them a breathing space for so long, and they only have this to show." Cue the march-in.

Fenrir_valindri

2008-04-30, 23:34

I could see them standing ontop of a mountain of corpses myself, if the Organization thinks they are powerful enough for the job, then they probably are. (Unless the enemy risks their own "super-weapons" against them)

They could be wearing down with just the two of them though, unless the Organization has more back-up for them then we thought. :uhoh:

yezhanquan

2008-04-30, 23:36

We are not sure what the MIBs have with the other side. Was it a truce? Low level, simmering conflict?

I think the twins are probably above average compared to what the other side has, but once the other side's "above average guys" start rolling in...

Besides, I think Beth will be pushed to her limit in a long drawn-out conflict. Galatea knew that a short while is enough to send her panting.

Cyclone

2008-04-30, 23:38

With Miria dropping her bombshell, it really narrows the options for Miata and Clarice though. I mean even if Galatea let herself be executed by them, they'd still have a death sentence pronounced upon them when they got back to HQ to give their report (or she'd be sent off to fight Isley or Riful alone at the very least).

The way I see it, Clarice (and hence Miata) have 3 options:

- go back to the Org and be executed. Clarice's decision making abilities has so far shown that she is very capable of not putting 2 and 2 together and wander back like a lamb to the slaughter.

- join the ghosts. But would the ghosts want them? Those two would get on my nerves.

- go rogue themsleves - possibly stay in Rabona while Galatea joins the ghosts.

I guess joining the ghosts makes most sense, but... I don't see them as fitting in well. Oh well - I guess Yuma just needs and underling...

If Miata and Clarice join - what of Galatea. Will she decide to stay in Rabona (assuming of course the priests let her [which I think they would])? The possibilities are making my head spin... I need a translation at least to know more of what's going on! Why can't darn thing come out in Japanese first!?!

Fenrir_valindri

2008-04-30, 23:39

Possibly, maybe a lull in the action, or a cold-war of sorts?

Perhaps the Organization's side was defeated, but still secretly plotting against the DoD?

To add to my theory.

Wonder where all those Orphan girls that didn't fill out the 47 ranks or die during the testing go?

My guess is they are shipped to the front lines to help with the fight, as they couldn't have too many warriors around, otherwise the AB + yoma population would suffer.

Or they could simply need the extra warriors on the front. :uhoh:

Also, if Alicia and Beth were merely average, the Organization wouldn't have been bragging about their power, and the Organization's side would have lost a LONG time ago.

My guess is Alicia and Beth just can't be everywhere at once as any conflict they joined the side of would be over in their favor pretty damn quick. (Take out the big threats and then leave the rest to the standerd soldiers/hybrids/Yoma)

------------

By the looks of it, Miata and Clarice are joining with the Ghosts, as they have no choice at this point.

yezhanquan

2008-04-30, 23:43

Well, I remembered Rubel saying that little girls get shipped to one direction, while the boys get shipped to the other.

What the other side is thinking, we have no idea. Damn, June had better come quickly. And no more breaks for Yagi-sensei.

Fenrir_valindri

2008-04-30, 23:44

It is possible that the boys are shipped off to be soldiers for the war (cannon-fodder) or are turned into basic Yoma, or maybe ABs (not so sure of that myself)

Females are sent to the Org to be turned into hybrids, and maybe the excess amount get sent to the frontlines?

P.S. I just realized, Miria's leadership stock value just went up.

General Miria :love:

yezhanquan

2008-04-30, 23:46

I think I'm a psycho. But I have a theory that the other side wants to drag things out just to see how far the MIBs will go to "turn the tables". They think that they have everything sealed up. The twins will make them go "Whoa! That was a close one." and decide that play time's over.

Fenrir_valindri

2008-04-30, 23:48

Naaa, I don't think the opposing side would be that over-confident, it would be beyond foolish.

I stand by my theory that the shape-changing Yoma probably brought havok to the opposing side for the while.

Yoma would be great spies. :uhoh:

I really do get the feeling that Alicia and Beth are probably on the level of superweapons as far as the War would go, as in they would only be deployed were needed, and could turn the tide quite easily.

chibamonster

2008-04-30, 23:49

I do not know how many of you have seen the M. Night Shyamalan movie "The Villiage" but imagine that ending for Claymore with Clare stepping into modern day Tokyo. There is your plot twist! HA HA HA!

yezhanquan

2008-04-30, 23:50

I do not know how many of you have seen the M. Night Shyamalan movie "The Villiage" but imagine that ending for Claymore with Clare stepping into modern day Tokyo. There is your plot twist! HA HA HA!

If that happens, I think I won't be the first to shoot Yagi-sensei.

Fenrir_valindri

2008-04-30, 23:51

Everyone has my permission to begin vomiting if that happened. :eyespin:

and then get in line, we will be breaking Yagi-sensei's knees, unless he pulls a miracle and makes it work.

yezhanquan

2008-04-30, 23:54

My crack pot theory is that in this part of the world (where the Claymores were), initially, the population was sparse. The MIBs wipe the place clean, and start their experiment, ie the place was meant to be a parallel world of sorts to the other side.

Man, if the other side has members that are splitting images of the ladies whom we all know, that will be something.

Fenrir_valindri

2008-04-30, 23:58

yezhanquan

2008-04-30, 23:59

chibamonster

2008-05-01, 00:08

Well one thing is for sure. Now that we have seen those dragon soldiers someone is going to have to fight one at some point. Maybe many of them. I would love to see Isley and Riful going nuts on any groups of enemies together...

yezhanquan

2008-05-01, 00:35

I was hoping that the other side uses more humane ways to gather/train their soldiers.

edf91

2008-05-01, 00:49

I'd prefer if they had completely different rules for their warriors.

Maybe they can be male or female, or maybe they are just naturally monsters and they have human "handlers."

As much as I want to stay up and discuss this more, I'm gonna sleep on it and let my brain come up with stuff on its own.

Maybe a translation will come out by then. :uhoh:

English translation tends to be a bit late - I find it kind of funny that you can find the Chinese version way quicker than even the raw. The order I tend to find them is Chinese->Japanese->English.

Bad news for Galatea fans:

Galatea said she cannot regenerate her eyes because that ability is mostly due to their memories of the body part, and since she lost her eyes for so long, she will not be able to regenerate it. At least she said she doesn't care, as she just want to live among humans.

yezhanquan

2008-05-01, 00:50

Well, I think it's more likely that she doesn't want to go back to the battleground again. But, will Miria's words shake her into action?

mosmos

2008-05-01, 01:08

I guess the ridiculous future plot will be that there would be dragons, hobbits (MIB) , faries and elves (think Irene and Ophelelia pointed ears) and hopefully vampires, wizards and Centaurs (think Isley).

It makes sense because half elf half yoma are more powerful than half human half yoma. Just look at Irene.

Teresa and Galeatia are a half goddess half yoma therefore = most powerful.

Those MIB are half hobbits half yoma = least powerful therefore cannot awaken.

Now they are making half man half yoma and half pig = man bear pig ...

Pls forgive my random thought.

yezhanquan

2008-05-01, 01:14

mosmos: I don't blame you for your disbelief. But, the world has been expanded, and we just have to accept it.

mosmos

2008-05-01, 01:15

mosmos: I don't blame you for your disbelief. But, the world ahs been expanded, and we just have to accept it.

Ok thank you

tenken627

2008-05-01, 01:15

We really don't know the current situation between the Organization faction and the Descendants of the Dragon faction.

mcnick's rough translation states that the DoD allied themselves with unnatural beings which turned the tide against the other nations, including the one that the Org is from.

But, he also states that the alliance between the DoD humans and the unnatural beings have fallen out a century ago and split into two. Or maybe he meant that the DoD faction split into two itself with both sides using human and unnatural being manpower.

zato_1one

2008-05-01, 01:16

Another spoiler

SENCE79　東の深意
The Truth of the East (indicating the organization?)

ガラテアに剣を向け戦おうとする色付きに対して成すべき事は済んだから殺せというガラテア
Clarice tries to fight Galatea. Galatea says she is done with everything and asks Clarice to kill her
そんな事言われたら斬れないと泣き崩れる色付きをミリアがチームへ誘う
Clarice bursts crying that she can't slash if Galatea says that. Miria invites Clarice to the team
それ対しチームで組織を潰したら誰も妖魔を狩れなくなると困惑する色付き
Clarice is worried that no one will be able to kill Yoma if Organization was crushed

妖魔は組織が作り出しているから問題無いと言うミリアに「ソースは？」と訪ねるガラテア
Miria says that there is no problem since Yoma was created by the organization. Galatea asks for the source of the information.
ミリアは証拠として覚醒者を切っても刃こぼれひとつしないクレイモアを挙げる
Miria raises the Claymore(Sword) as the proof, which does not show any crack even after slashing so many Awakened beings
大剣の原材料はこの地に存在しない鉱物で作られている事から
From the fact that the Claymore(Sword) is made of what is not from the land
ミリアはある仮説をたてる
Miria draws a theory

この世には別のもっと大きな別の大陸が存在し、そこでは人間同士が戦争をしているというもの
There is another continent where humans are still in warring state
そして、そこには覇権争いをする二大勢力が有り片側が強固な外皮を持つ異種族を見方につけ戦いの趨勢(すうせい)を握った
There are two stronger powers, and one of them has allied with some creatures with hard skins, being dominant over the fight

これに対抗するためにもう一つの勢力は人そのものを弄る研究を生み出す
To comfront, the other power starts to experiment on humans
しかし、それは自陣が全滅する諸刃の剣であった
The method, however, will be also risking their own side
それってまさか・・・そう・・・
Which means...yes...

この地は覚醒者の実験場なんだ
"This land is the experimental field for awakened beings"

Credit: Epsilonium@mangahelper

It even has a discussion about the sword material why it isn't break! I never expect that. I always think it's just a small factor to entertain reader which is no need to be explained. :twitch:

On a side note, this whole information "is" Miria's theory. We still don't know if it's 100% true until the MIB explain to us. I suspect that it may has a lie within it to spin our head again in the future. <_< I don't mean Miria is lying but it may has something that she still doesn't know. Next chapter is may be "The Truth of the North" Seriously, I still don't know why a boy should be sent to the north.

This chapter is like a bomb. So many questions waiting to be answered. But please don't turn out to be Scrapped Princess. :dots:

yezhanquan

2008-05-01, 01:16

Waiting for June's chapter for more facts from Yagi.

The claymores are made of a material which cannot be found on this side of the world. It's akin to diamond. A blade has never shown to be chipped or broken, no matter what happens.

I think Miria's gathered enough info to be convinced that at least what she knows is true, part of the jigsaw. May not be the whole thing, but still...

chibamonster

2008-05-01, 01:38

The organizations next step: AB's with Claymore swords fit for their forms...

tenken627

2008-05-01, 02:00

yezhanquan

2008-05-01, 02:03

I'm still iffy on the time scale. Waiting for more info on the other side.

tenken627

2008-05-01, 02:09

I'm still iffy on the time scale. Waiting for more info on the other side.

I was iffy as well, but I've heard it now from three different sources? I dunno.

Flar

2008-05-01, 02:12

That was a nice twist. Just when it seemed the story would become just an endless quest for vengeance with monster of the week included, Yagi throws that curveball, making Clare's quest almost irrelevant, and adding some scope to the ghosts' endeavours.

That explains so much: the lack of standing armies, the unbreakable swords, the org itself, the way they hunt renegade claymores with more zeal than they do for ABs, the emphasis they put on obedience...

Anyway, some details:
Cynthia's forte is yoki manipulation. Poor Galatea, first Tabatha gets sensing, then Cynthia manipulation, she's made entirely redundant. Now there is only Yuma who doesn't have some sort of special trick
Miria is inviting Clarice, just as planned, but that means abandoning the advantage of Yoki Suppression, the org would track them anywhere, it's quite bothersome if they especially intent to fight them. Maybe she's just saying to become a mole.
Blind master Agatha not regenerating her eyes is a non-issue, after all she is more efficient without her eyes anyway, and cooler too.
Clarice tried to suicide - trying to follow the org's orders to the end, even if she was outclassed. Refused to continue when it appeared she could succeed. So she has honor at least, on top of her quick-mindedness (even if yes, her decision making could use some polishing, but she won't be a leader now, so no problem)
One wonders where the author will take the story from here. He has several possibilities: Fight with the org, Travel to new continent, Alliance with Riful (yeah!), creation of an independant army. Are the dragon guys good or bad, anyway? Politicks could also rear their head, after all Rubel never seemed a cog in the MiBs, but more of a free agent.
Where does Isley/Raki/Prisc fit in now? Humans just got a serious boost in their possibilities (by just hinting that there may be a whole continent of them that wouldn't be wusses)
Claymore island is maybe smaller than Europe, in the end. Britain sized seems more in order.

And yeah, who was proponent of the convoluted theory about a Claymore tracking team with Lune nearby and still is now? :p

yezhanquan

2008-05-01, 02:15

The real fighting is happening on the other side. This half of the world screams "weapons testing ground".

chibamonster

2008-05-01, 02:17

I cannot say much about the time line until I read the raws or translations, but it is possible that as a 77th generation warrior #182 Teresa is actually the 182nd claymore ever to get her symbol and at that point there had been only 77 graduations. Difficult to say at this point. Might also have been one of 182 trainees or more claymores.... difficult to say.

As for where the story is headed, I think it will probably still focus on characters and their relationships with one another more than anything. It seems the real political parts (like Isley's plans and battles) of the story are taken care of rather quickly while most of the time instead has been focused on who the characters are and then seeing them fighting.

tenken627

2008-05-01, 02:21

yezhanquan

2008-05-01, 02:39

Is it just me, or did no one suspect that all the gloom and angst in Claymore thus far was something quite unnatural, as if it was manufactured (As it turned out, it was.)? This weapons testing ground is a sick joke, if there ever was one.

Cyclone

2008-05-01, 02:51

The translations we have so far also state that yomas and Claymores have been around for only around a century. (I'm not sure if this coincides with the ending of the alliance between the DoDs and their "unnatural beings" allies.)

If that is the case, and Teresa is of the 77th generation, the timeline is actually very short. I don't believe that there were 77 ranked #1's with Teresa as the 77th #1, since there are older Claymores mixed in with newer Claymores at any given time.

77 generations in around 100 years is a very short time, which gives credence to the theory that generations pop up yearly, but few in number. Maybe only a handful like 2-5 Claymores graduate every year and make up one generation and fill in the ranks that need to be filled in. Except of course in years like the Luciela or the Pieta disaster where a huge portion of the ranks would need to be filled up quickly.

That also gives credibility that Clare's generation is only made up of her and the other girl who survived the final graduation test against that yoma in Extra Scene 4.

I would think that there were only around maybe 20 ranked #1s before Teresa. That would give each #1 an average of a 5 year life span, which seems to sound plausible. And having such a low number would make the fact that there were only 3 Abyssal Ones throughout history more plausible. 3 out of 20 ranked #1s awakening sounds much better than 3 out of 77.

If Teresa was the 20th ranked #1 in Claymore history, then Luciela could possibly be around the 17th ranked #1 with Rosemary being the 19th.

I also consider the 1 gen/year theory to be likely.
What people forget is Teresa's full quote though.

Orsay (Viz version):
A 77th generation Claymore... Warrior Number 182

That would seem to average around 2.5 warriors a generation - right on par with ES4.

If this whole mess started 100 years ago, it's fair to assume the organization and youma started some 70 years before Teresa. So, reconstructing a timeline...

year/gen event
-------------------------------------------
1 Riful enlists
?67+-5 Raphaela/Luciella incident (wild guess)
73+-3 ??? Rapahela hears of Zemas twins (wild guess - twins seem 20ish)
74+-1? Teresa enlisted
+1? Teresa meets Raphaela
77 Teresa graduates
81+-3? Pricilla awakens - Clare enlists(finds Rubul /w Teresa's head)
+(3-5)? ES4 - Clare graduates
+1? Elena Graduates
92? Raki/Elena's blackcard
93 Pieta
100 Clarice's time

Let's see... 182
- 47 initial gen 1 warriors...
- 30-ish lost for during Luciela

Leaves about 105 warriors graduating normally over 77 years. Little more than 1 per generation. That seems a quite low...
I suppose it's possible though. Then again, maybe I'm the first person ever to be crazy enough to try this mathematically...

In any case, did I miss anything important?

Edit - should have known chiba would beat me to it...

yezhanquan

2008-05-01, 02:53

I think the guys should be counted in: Isley, Rigualdo and the rest.

Cyclone

2008-05-01, 03:06

I think the guys should be counted in: Isley, Rigualdo and the rest.

I really have no clue how long the era of the gentlemen lasted - nor how many there were for that matter.
We know that there was:
Isley
Duff
Rigaldo and 28 other ABs in Pieta
3 male ABs scouts to Pieta
3 male ABs that attacked Clarice in the North
1 male AB in the Slashers Arc

That brings us to 37 right there (assuming all 28 others in Pieta were male too - which is unlikely now that I think about it). We don't know how long the male era lasted or anything about it really (it's called the era of male warriors - the idea of generations is never applied to it AFAIK). All we know is that the organization counts Riful as generation 1.

In any case - the timeline. Let's say the era of male warriors was short as they tended to awaken quickly - say 3 years. So Put them at year "-3" and subtract 3 from every year after Riful I guess

chibamonster

2008-05-01, 03:11

I am not planning on running the numbers right now, but I wonder if the males are included in the warrior count as yezhanquan said. We have seen a lot of them die. I would guess that they are not included because I would have started over after they all failed. It makes you wonder if the Males were originally from the other continent. So for instance Isley knew full well what he was getting into. That could be very interesting with his future plans. This twist really excites me because it is bringing the claymore world together and a lot of the story makes more sense now than it did before especially for the organizations cruel policies; they are not breeding warriors to kill youma they are running a weapons testing facility. I am so excited now to see AB vs Dragon battles! I think with this development we will also see more about how claymores/youma are made and from what source the organization got them. They may be dragon's (or whatever) themselves.

Edit: cyclone ran the numbers...

yezhanquan

2008-05-01, 03:16

Now that we have more info, I think Isley knew about the war on the other side, and his aim is to try and live his days peacefully with someone who's like him. Since he has Priscilla (and Raki), well, a hermit lifestyle doesn't sound too bad, not to mention that he shook off all those whom he didn't really want to have by his side (even Rigualdo).

Riful, on the other hand, wants to be a monkey wrench in the war with the other side (assuming she knows about it).

KiNA

2008-05-01, 03:18

Flar

2008-05-01, 03:34

About the generation thing, it's also interesting to note that the first generation Claymores will be aware that the org is lying, since they lived in a world without Yomas, ABs or things like that before. From that to imagine that Isley was an officer from the other continent (for example), there is a very tiny step, it would correlate with the way org and AO interact, explain that familiarity they all have when speaking of each others "Is Isley mocking us" "the org is as crafty as ever", etc.

MalakTawus

2008-05-01, 04:06

I think that there were only 10 number one's or so before Teresa....5 years of service for a number one aren't enought,the other claymores would have noticed something strange was going on......btw Ali&Beth are around for quite a bit now(not to mention Raphaela.....).
Some of you think that ABs are just small fry now,i don't think so.Imo Priscilla will remain the strongest enemy of all,just she will not be the principal enemy(now it's Organization role...).Claire is the main char of the story and i still think that her REAL quest will be against Priscilla and Isley,and if you think about it the DoD could be allies against the Org.
The only way that DoD could become Claire's enemies is if they kill someone dear to her (Raki or one of the ghosts) or if they intend to kill EVERYONE on the island(yeah,innocent humans too....)

irvinethearcher

2008-05-01, 04:28

I read the entire chapter but didn't understand anything. Now i know how Columbus must have felt once he discovered america ;)
Die for your goverment ;)

Anima

2008-05-01, 05:34

I..... am..... really..... not...... sure.... about..... this.... whole.... thing.....

I mean......

I didn't expect this at all but to tell the truth I don't know how I should feel about it. This settles the issue of the Org being the evil guys. They ARE. makes ABs nothing but pawns in the whole game. Why does the Org fight Yoma? Are yoma failed Claymore creations? My head is spinning I don't know what to think of.

Oh well, next issue should clear more of that fog.. But damn, I expected this chapter to be a bit longer.

yezhanquan

2008-05-01, 05:37

From my lack of in-depth reading, I thought that the Yoma were the initial foot soldiers to be used on the other side. Worked for a short while, then didn't make the cut, so the MIB wanted better troops.

They start off with Isley and his fellow guys, but they can't be controlled. The Yoma didn't have much brains and apparently, intelligence became important as a requirement. So, next in line, Riful. An excellent point: was she the only female AB before Priscilla?

They wanted an AB and an ability to control it completely. Tried that with Luci and Rafa, didn't work. Worked with the twins, though.

tenken627

2008-05-01, 06:05

Even though this chapter puts some light on the Organization's background, it actually adds so much more questions about it.

1) Exactly who are the MiBs? That's still not answered. It still seems like they are not normal humans. Are they a different type of human? Different type of beings? Are they similar to their DoD enemies? They don't hold much regard for normal humans, at least not for the normal humans on the Claymore continent.

2) Is the Organization Council the head of their entire faction including those on the "mainland" or do they only have control over their areas on the Claymore continent. Are they a totally separate unit from their counterparts on the "mainland"? Is the Organization just a black ops project department of their faction, or are they the ones in control?

yezhanquan

2008-05-01, 06:07

Nice questions raised by tenken627, and very unlikely to be answered by Miria even. Anyone wants to bet that a trip over to the other side is in the cards?

Fenrir_valindri

2008-05-01, 06:08

There where plenty of female Awakened Beings before Priscilla btw.

As for the generations, it is quite possible Teresa's number was truly indicative of her being the 187th (?) female Claymore, that means that the 77 doesn't mean that their were 77 sets of 47 Claymores, but that their had only been 180+ female warriors ever created at this time.

It makes sense of you think of them slowly changing the ranks, instead of replacing the majority of the generation.

Alicia and Beth remain #1 + 2 (Most likely), so that means this generation hasn't produced its own number 1-2, and probably won't until Alicia and Beth die.

It is quite possible Alicia/Beth are the longest running heads of the 47 Claymores, with 7+ years behind their service.

So they simply refill the ranks, and shuffled warriors as needed, but disasters such as the Lucalea incident, and later the War in the North cut down several generations worth of Claymores at once, forcing the Organization to recreate large batches of Claymores within a few generations time.

We always assumed Clare's generation was generation 78, when it could be something like 80+ (Priscilla could even be the generation 78, after Teresa)

-------

I also don't think this new side will be any better then Organization, especially if they use monsters as standing military. :uhoh:

yezhanquan

2008-05-01, 06:10

Well, in fantasy settings (yes, Claymore finally attains this status.), it's not uncommon for non-humans to live in peace with humans. The dragons: Do they feed on humans? What are they, really?

Oh ya, female ABs except Riful were weaker than the guys + the black card system meant that they were hunted.

Fenrir_valindri

2008-05-01, 06:28

Not really, many of the female AB were just as strong, if not stronger stronger then the males, but only Riful was as strong as Isley, and Lucalea was almost equal in strength as well.

The black-card system also didn't mean anything to Awakened Beings, it mattered to Claymores who thought they were losing control.

This is probably the reason we don't see as many female AB, but I bet there is still a decent amount of them.

For female AB we have, Riful, Lucalea, Rosemary, Agatha, Ophelia, Hilda, Nameless single-digit, and Katea. Almost all of them were single digit status, and quite powerful. So I would not say that the male generation warriors and ABs were any stronger then the female ones.

------

As for the DoD (not real Dragons likely, probably just some sort of monster like the Yoma), I wouldn't be suprised if they did, my guess is they are the basis for the Yoma experiment, and later the Hybrid experiment (and thus, AB)

It also makes some sense now that normal Yoma are so much weaker then hybrids, because "normal" Yoma are simply experiments as well. I'd be willing to bet it is possible for the Organization to develop a far stronger version of the basic Yoma using what they have learned from Awakened Beings, but they would probably be far harder to control.

The six-arm AB comes to mind.

yezhanquan

2008-05-01, 06:29

Who thinks that over at the other side, there are half dragon half human hybrids?

I was hoping that the other side will be a different feel. The humans may be living in poverty like over at this side, but at least they know that a war is going on, and their sons and daughters are being used as experiments to try to win the war, and they accept it as a part of life.

Fenrir_valindri

2008-05-01, 06:34

They could technically not even be humans, Descendents of the Dragons could imply they are already hybrids and can perhaps even control the "Dragons" to a certain extent, and the Organization is just trying to level the playing field.

yezhanquan

2008-05-01, 06:35

Hmmm... then the MIB can claim that their half is the only place where true humans can be found, never mind the fact that they lived in fear.

tenken627

2008-05-01, 06:43

I'm sure there are many regular humans on the other side.

The Org faction and the DoD faction aren't the only two sides I think. It seems like throughout history, there were many different nations warring with each other. The DoDs then started to use monsters, and may have have taken control over the other areas except for the Org's side.

yezhanquan

2008-05-01, 06:58

Sounds like the 30 year war era to me. Still, I won't dismiss it. Might even be the actual case in Yagi's plans.

Key Board

2008-05-01, 07:14

I've always thought that Yoma are discarded lab rats, but I'm not sure if the org intentionally sets them out to cause havoc

I guess one way to know is to see the Yoma population. Are the numbers of Yoma dwindling?

If not is that a sign that Yoma still being made?
Or is it a sign that Yoma reproduce?

Cyclone

2008-05-01, 08:17

Alicia and Beth remain #1 + 2 (Most likely), so that means this generation hasn't produced its own number 1-2, and probably won't until Alicia and Beth die.

We know that Alicia and Beth are still #1 and #2. They are still listed as such in databoook #3.

On a side note, with Miria's big reveal, things are starting to make much more sense. The Organization's large fees for example. There's always a shortage of funds in a war.

Negativedark

2008-05-01, 08:29

One thing I'd like to point out. I don't think we should assume that the other side has things capable of taking out Priscilla. She's like a Nuke that detonates when you don't want it to. She's not a weapon the Org can use, she doesn't listen to them.
You know back in the day maps would say "Here There be dragons" to indicate unknown areas.
This sorta reminds me of Guyver now.

Mord

2008-05-01, 08:32

Cyclone

2008-05-01, 08:43

The info page in chapter 74 states that Alicia and Beth fell inactive after the war, so they may no longer hold those ranks.

Inactive or not, the databook is fairly clear. Is there any reason this would lie?
http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/3426/omake18pt0.th.jpg (http://img72.imageshack.us/my.php?image=omake18pt0.jpg)

Fenrir_valindri

2008-05-01, 09:47

Good point, I forgot that the databooks relisted Alicia and Beth as #1-2 in the new "generation."

It adds weight to the train of thought that the Organization doesn't filter out entire sets of warriors, just the people they need to.

Anima

2008-05-01, 10:00

Awakened

2008-05-01, 10:08

We know that Alicia and Beth are still #1 and #2. They are still listed as such in databoook #3.

On a side note, with Miria's big reveal, things are starting to make much more sense. The Organization's large fees for example. There's always a shortage of funds in a war.

lol, the mibs are smart, they create a problem then charge you a large fee to fix it.
Claymore that are not under their control are bad for business.

Next chapter might be more talking, we havent seen the Cid/Clare reunion. I was hopping for a funny moment, but I will just have to wait till next month.:(

One thing I'd like to point out. I don't think we should assume that the other side has things capable of taking out Priscilla. She's like a Nuke that detonates when you don't want it to. She's not a weapon the Org can use, she doesn't listen to them.
You know back in the day maps would say "Here There be dragons" to indicate unknown areas.
This sorta reminds me of Guyver now.

I think you are right, the Mibs did not try and develop a new kind of weapon after the Raphelia insident. They worked on refining their weapon.

An army full on twins woulb be funny, not in a funny way, but funny. Get what am saying?
lol. The mibs might develop a pill that will increase a mothers chanse of having twins (FYI, thats where fertility pills came from).

Vinak

2008-05-01, 10:57

lol, the mibs are smart, they create a problem then charge you a large fee to fix it.

Mafia of the middle ages. Extortion at it's finest.
____

hmmm I think it would be really cool if the G10? met with the DOD and joined forces.
they could become a special commando unit for the DOD.

or maybe this is just a really bad prank from Yagi and the real chapter 79 is still in the works.

Negativedark

2008-05-01, 11:46

Now if this were an RPG, I imagine the party will soon get beaten up by someone from the new faction, who doesn't kill them for some reason. They will then either get seperated in a new land, and have to meet back up, or go looking for a means of transportation to get to the rest of the world. So will they get the hovercraft first, or go right to the airship?

Fenrir_valindri

2008-05-01, 11:47

I have a feeling that the whole "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" rule will not apply in this situation.

The DoD don't exactly give off the impression that they are good guys, considering they used monsters first.

-----

Anyone else notice that Miria seems quite set on assaulting the Organization from the rough summery? As in as soon as possible?

If so, then she is giving up the stealth element and just going for a lightning-attack, which means Galatea, Miata, and Clarice won't be as big of a burden being detectable.

------

Also, this isn't an RPG, so I doubt they would have to go through anything to elaborate to reach the new lands, and I doubt their will be an enemy out their who would defeat and not kill them.

Negativedark

2008-05-01, 12:18

------

Also, this isn't an RPG, so I doubt they would have to go through anything to elaborate to reach the new lands, and I doubt their will be an enemy out their who would defeat and not kill them.

LOL, I was making a joke. It's just that this seems to be what happens about midway through most RPG's.

Tempest35

2008-05-01, 13:10

Darn it, I haven't read it yet but be warned - my mind comes up with theories insanely fast so expect a flood once I get my hands on the chapter. :p

The piece of land that they're on does seem quite large...if it's an island, it's a pretty big one - at least Japan-size, if not larger.

So the two MAJOR factions in the WORLD are : Decendants of the Dragon (allied with inhuman monsters) and the ORG or the team that the MIB work for.

Could it also be plausible that the 'yoma' are just the DoD's footsoldiers themselves, or the battle equivalent for them to test the Claymore's out on? If the Claymores can overcome the basic soldiers, then great. But for some reason, it seems as if the DoD side have their own 'Awakened Beings' as well - I'm just using the term 'Awakened Beings' in order to name the other side's equivalent. Their name - Descendants of the Dragon - leads me to a belief that, like the Awakened Ones we know, they can shift from human form to a much more powerful form.

Which could explain MIB's efforts into the Zema twins/idea of Soul-Linking as of late - could they have gotten a message from the front lines or something?

Which begs some more questions: Even if Miria leads the Rebellion (:D), is she just going to stop at freeing Area 11 (the land they are in) or will she move to invade Britannia itself (the location of the DoD).

Che, looks like I don't even need to read the bloody chapter first to start speculating... :heh:

Vinak

2008-05-01, 13:16

you guys think Miria might have some ulterior motive for revealing this "secret"?

she could be lying to them all. she seems hell bent on attacking the organization for her revenge.
forcing them to hide and undergo extreme training. all 6 of them seem to have grown loyal to her in those 7 years.

that little thing about disbanding the G7 was just a test of loyalty.

none of this feels consistent.
humans not knowing anything.
the island has to be the size of greenland in order to have different climate zones along with villages and cities... not to mention mountain ranges.
haven't seen any port towns or large bodies of water
the yoma and awakened beings themselves never mention anything.

Tempest35

2008-05-01, 13:21

:eek: How could you even insinuate that my goddess would ever do such a thing!? :frustrated: :frustrated: :eyespin:

-calms down-

She wants to know the whole truth it seems, about the entire situation and she wants it as soon as possible. Whether or not she's 'twisting' things to her own end, as unlikely as it seems, will remain to be determined. I have faith though. :D

The idea of training the girls, forcing a partial awakening, then sealing their use of youki seems like a plausible tactic for new training methods - a different type of warrior - when trained in a larger, elite squad, can bring down AB-class opponents fairly easily.

chibamonster

2008-05-01, 13:24

I thought when I woke up today I would be able to easily find raws or scans. No go :(. One thing I think will definitely happen with this development though is that not all of it will be true. Much like when Riful sat down and laid out some thick plot in the witches maw about what happened with Priscilla since she awakened I think some of this information is going to be a bit inaccurate. Or at least not the full story by any means. I certainly think there will be other monsters and such (because there are flashback pictures) I just think some of the organizations motives and such have yet to be revealed in full. I am sure Rubel has more information on it all. I am a big fan of the few pieces I have seen or read.

Alicia and Beth really must be the pinnacle of what the organization wanted to create with controllable awakened beings although in war would it matter if their soldiers were AB's who ate the other side? Maybe AB's just do not take orders anyway. It makes you wonder how Miria got all this information.

As for the islands size remember that all of those different settings of Lord of the Rings were filmed in New Zealand which is even smaller than Japan. There certainly is a north of Japan that has lots of snow, plenty of forests, mountains, hills and even some sand dunes. It seems the island is very isolated which would mean port towns would not be hubs of trade although this now begs the question; will we see a boat in claymore now?

Vinak

2008-05-01, 13:29

from my understanding of the translations. Miria never found the place the organization made the swords so she pulled an elaborate story out of her behind and decided they came from across an imaginary ocean that has yet to be discovered.

across this imaginary ocean another big island exists where other mythical creatures live and fight each other.

@chiba New Zealand and Japan don't have deserts. at least i don't think they do.
kinda need to be far away from water or at least be on the east side of a large Mountain to have desert regions. (generally speaking)
be close to an equator again, the island would have to be huge for that. because of the north tundra and the presence of forests in the west

tenken627

2008-05-01, 13:38

I really doubt that the DoDs are hybrid monster warriors, or dragons, or any other weird combination. They seem to be as "human" as the MiBs are.

Before the DoDs allied themselves with unnatural beings, it seems like they were not a dominant force. They were just one of many warring nations. They were probably like the MiB faction without yomas or Claymores. They may be another type of human or humanoid being, but I don't think the DoDs themselves were that much more powerful than the MiBs.

The alliance between the DoDs and the unnatural beings changed everything. It was only until after the alliance that the DoDs finally had the upper hand against the other warring nations and the MiBs.

I am not sure if we're going to even see any DoDs. If the Organization is all that is left of their faction, and the Ghosts take them out, that is all the story that needs to be told. Honestly, the Organization may not have actively pursued ABs in the past, but after Isley's attack, how can they not view ABs as a danger to their survival. The Organization has enough problems in the story as is with Isley, Priscilla, and the Ghosts.

Right now the story is about the Ghosts against the Organization and Clare against Priscilla. This chapter establishes the fact that the MiBs really are the ones creating yomas that is threatening humans. The reason why they created yomas was because of the DoDs, but do the Ghosts really care much about the DoDs or happenings in a different part of the world themselves? Probably not. It's probably just an epic backdrop for them and their main purpose.

The DoDs could be just a history lesson into the world of Claymore, and explain why the MiBs do what they do.

For all we know, the DoDs could possibly be no more. Especially if there really was a rift in the DoD alliance a century ago.

Fenrir_valindri

2008-05-01, 14:25

You do realize the MiB aren't very "human" themselves, so comparing the DoD just makes them less like humans, instead of more like humans.

We don't know of the DoD will show up over the course of the story, but I doubt they are introduced now just to never show up, especially when it is the focus of a full chapter.

---------

I still can't believe people can come up with "Miria is revenge crazy" or "Miria is evil" theories with all the Ghosts has been through.

Clare is the one who wanted to leave the North, not Miria, and it was Clare's determination that encouraged Miria to emerge from hiding with the rest of the Ghosts.

So I doubt she would feed them this story just because she wants them to attack the Organization.

From the rough summary, it seems like people didn't like the idea of destroying the Organization due to the fact they protect humans form Yoma.
But as we all suspected, the Organization IS creating Yoma, so if they destroy the Organization, they put a stop to Yoma as well.

Now we know why they did it, and what is possibly lurking beyond the borders of what they know.

This could be a small continent, and not an island, so it is entirely possible that these people are not aware of any of this.

Think of the Native Americans when Europe discovered the Americas.

tenken627

2008-05-01, 14:30

You do realize the MiB aren't very "human" themselves, so comparing the DoD just makes them less like humans, instead of more like humans.

We don't know of the DoD will show up over the course of the story, but I doubt they are introduced now just to never show up, especially when it is the focus of a full chapter.

That's why I put "human" in quotation marks. The MiB's aren't very "human" themselves, but I don't see the DoDs being that much more powerful than the MiBs. I just don't see the DoDs themselves being much more powerful than the other factions until they got their unnatural allies.

I said who knows about a few DoDs showing up in the story. We may or may not see them. I just don't think that we're going to be introduced to a whole legion of DoD characters, or that the Claymores are going to be fully engulfed in some world war.

It is very highly possible that the Ghosts meet a couple of DoDs on the Claymore continent. Maybe Raki could be the descendant of one.

Fenrir_valindri

2008-05-01, 14:34

tenken627

2008-05-01, 14:40

I'm not saying that they will be powerful, but they could posses abilities far above the norm, such as say.....the ability to control these "unnatural beings" with their own minds, or some such.

I don't think we will have a large-scale "War" either, but I wouldn't be against it if Yagi did it well.

I agree that they could possess abilities far above the norm of regular humans.

In fact the DoDs may not be descendants of actual dragons themselves, but have power over dragon type creatures. These dragon type creatures may in fact be the "unnatural beings" that the DoDs were allied with. They may have been called DoDs by others who've seen this alliance of DoDs and unnatural beings fighting side by side.

But, having special abilities doesn't necessarily mean that you aren't human specifically. For example, a human with telekentic powers is still human, although maybe a mutated or evolved type. Unless of course, you have some yoma in you.

zato_1one

2008-05-01, 14:45

none of this feels consistent.
humans not knowing anything.
the island has to be the size of greenland in order to have different climate zones along with villages and cities... not to mention mountain ranges.
haven't seen any port towns or large bodies of water
the yoma and awakened beings themselves never mention anything.
Yes. That's why I said so many questions waiting to be answered. I think it's too early to assume that it's inconsistent. We only know a rough translation which may not accurate. I hope English translation will be out soon. <_<

I think that this chapter won't answer all questions but I believe that they will be revealed in future chapter in order to complete the jigsaw. Somehow, I feel that the one who will enlighten us in the end is Rubel. :cool:

Talking about Claymore continent, it doesn't have any map and doesn't show the entire area. So we never know whether it has port town.

Don't forget the six arms AB in slasher arc. It looked like he was working with the Organization. Before he was cut, he said he wanted to tell something. It might be a trick but his behavior indicated that he did know something.

I just remember what Miria said to her team in slasher arc about half awakened incident. After half awakened their body has some changes and they don't know what will happen to their body. Miria said they may slowly start to fully awakened. I hope this question will be answered soon. Somehow, I feel that in the future it may has a Claymore who can freely change shape on some parts of the body but still maintain human mind. :twitch: (But I prefer he/she to be the villain :p)

Fenrir_valindri

2008-05-01, 14:45

Technically, Yoma could just be mutated humans from what we know now, kind of like Vampires/Werewolves, but yes, the DoD could be "Special" humans instead of actual monsterous hybrids.

I don't think these "Dragons" are necessarily the same type of Dragons that most people are thinking of, they could simply be large/powerful monsters that earned the name "Dragons" in the Claymore World.

tenken627

2008-05-01, 14:58

Methuselah

2008-05-01, 14:58

Well if the generation spam for the female Claymores are that short... Then the Organization is pretty darn gutsy for sending 24 claymores (?) to the North to "delay" (in theory) the assault for 2 days and only to take out a hand full of Awakened Ones..

EDIT: Will I guess the delay was to prep up Alice and Beth. Never mind i take it back.

P.S: Will I always imagine the isolated continent (?) is something like Hyrule. XD The world portrayed in the Claymore universe might not reflect our world's geography, though they imitate medieval cultures.To have so many different weather properties such as blizzard, scorching dessert, rain forest.. It is an ideal place for the Organization to test their new stuff.

tunjee01

2008-05-01, 15:01

The yoma's i believe are the boys sent to the north since all yoma's we've seen seem more male than female. I believe they are used as training material for the claymores.

Negativedark

2008-05-01, 15:28

About the Boys... The north is a frontier area. Most likly the boys sent there are sent as slave labor for work such as mining, and logging. Between the hazards inherent in those occupations, and the high AB population, it's no wonder a lot of replacements are needed.

Awakened

2008-05-01, 15:33

Is Miria evil?
Have you seen beserker?

Miria been evil will be a nice twist, she would be more hatted that Priscila.

Clare should get the phantom legs, befor Miria reavils her evilness.

Good new people, Clare will get her power-up from the DoD.

Dragon Clare, sonds realy good.

Tempest35

2008-05-01, 15:35

Okay, now THAT, I am interested in - why would Miria be more hated than Priscilla IF she turned to the Dark Side??

...and this is completely off topic...:heh:

Fenrir_valindri

2008-05-01, 15:37

I have seen berserk, and we already have a Griffith in the form of Priscilla, except Priscilla isn't quite as (cough) gay as Griffith is.

It would be impossible for Miria to be evil at this point in the story, if it happened before the War in the North, maybe, but after that, it is clear where she stands.

and I still doubt that DoD are good guys.

Miria's ability doesn't revolve around her legs either, it relies on how she uses Yoki, as it speeds up her entire body.
------

We also don't know the gender of a majority of the Yoma, just because they shape-shift into men doesn't mean they are male, hence the reason they are shapeshifters.

Tempest35

2008-05-01, 15:45

------

We also don't know the gender of a majority of the Yoma, just because they shape-shift into men doesn't mean they are male, hence the reason they are shapeshifters.

There's that one youma that took the form of a Claymore, and looked pretty convincing. Even when 'she' transformed - the clothing did not become undone...well, she/it said that she'll remember the remark about 'Claymores' for later so she most likely controlled her transforming body in order to keep the outfit. If that's possible...to transform but not change size - very impressive.

And it's probably better not to be labeling DoD as good or bad guys at this point - they're another faction in this war/mess so we should probably keep it at that level until we know just what they are after besides winning this 'war'.

Still, that would be funny if they said they were the 'good guys' but they turn out to be just as crooked as the ORG then they meet Justice Priscilla...:heh:

clarakiss~

2008-05-01, 15:53

so if there is another contintent and a war between two factions, what are the chances of there being male claymores there? I think since the male claymore experience were completed, the organization sent them over to that continent to fight and whatnot.

isley might already know something about this since he being around the longest. maybe, just maybe, isley, priscilla and raki might have already ventured over to that continent in the past seven years and clare and the gang, after bringing down the organization, will venture over there as well. ^^;

Fenrir_valindri

2008-05-01, 16:02

I have a feeling that the Organization wasn't lying when they said that the male generation was a failure, they attempted to control them, but they were too autonmous and strong to be controlled by the Organization, so only certain ones (six-arms) actually obeyed them.

Then they found that that female hybrids where more consistent, and didn't awaken, thus were easier to control, since they didn't desire guts.

I think it is possible that Isley knows of the War however, and Riful's plan to level the playing field may have to do with the DoD as well, offering an alliance with them to help deal with Priscilla + Isley, and the Organization. (The Yoki-manipulation could be required to control a stronger "Unnatural Being" then usual)

But who knows, I'm still dying for a translation. :heh:

hell88

2008-05-01, 17:08

Mabye all of the male awakened beings were sen to another continent to fight for the org, but the org might have sent them because they knew they were going to awaken and the org didn't want them when they were awakened because that would be a huge problem on there hands. So they sen't them away so they wouldn't worry, but its a huge problem for where the male awakened ones wen't.

I am also dying for a translation.

Sordes Pilosus

2008-05-01, 17:21

Ps about the Ocean in Claymore. Check Chapter 31 Page 17. Look in the background, you will notice a clear differance in whats the sky and what looks like a ocean ?

Methuselah

2008-05-01, 18:08

Good eye there. No wonder the later chapters where Clare ran to are full of thick vegetations. Claymore got good geography XD

yezhanquan

2008-05-01, 18:12

Still, the place is only half (at the most) of the world. The other side awaits....

Yes. That's why I said so many questions waiting to be answered. I think it's too early to assume that it's inconsistent. We only know a rough translation which may not accurate. I hope English translation will be out soon. <_<

I think that this chapter won't answer all questions but I believe that they will be revealed in future chapter in order to complete the jigsaw. Somehow, I feel that the one who will enlighten us in the end is Rubel. :cool:

Talking about Claymore continent, it doesn't have any map and doesn't show the entire area. So we never know whether it has port town.

Don't forget the six arms AB in slasher arc. It looked like he was working with the Organization. Before he was cut, he said he wanted to tell something. It might be a trick but his behavior indicated that he did know something.

I just remember what Miria said to her team in slasher arc about half awakened incident. After half awakened their body has some changes and they don't know what will happen to their body. Miria said they may slowly start to fully awakened. I hope this question will be answered soon. Somehow, I feel that in the future it may has a Claymore who can freely change shape on some parts of the body but still maintain human mind. :twitch: (But I prefer he/she to be the villain :p)

If there is a port town, going by logic, it should be tightly controlled. Perhaps, the humans there too know that there's another continent beyond their shores, but they are never allowed to leave the port.

As I've always maintained, Rubel never stops smiling for a good reason.

Vinak

2008-05-01, 18:23

Ps about the Ocean in Claymore. Check Chapter 31 Page 17. Look in the background, you will notice a clear differance in whats the sky and what looks like a ocean ?

sharp eyes. i never noticed that before.

could be an ocean...or just a gray blob :p

yezhanquan

2008-05-01, 18:28

Another stunner would be that the other side is trying to figure out how the MIB got their troops and are looking for "samples"...

Sordes Pilosus

2008-05-01, 18:59

The page was pointed out by someone else in the "Continent Debate" on a other forum. But when i noticed it i also remembered the ocean debate here and noticed the sea or what atlest looks to be a sea in the background. This could also be one of those "Port Cities" that "never has been mentioned"

Cyclone

2008-05-01, 19:02

@Cyclon: Databooks are barely an official resource + they are pretty old now. That Claymore ranking tree is not valid any more. Indeed, I don't see Alicia and Beth leaving their spots but relying on these databooks for the current timeline/events is not accurate enough.

The first 2 databooks are old, but this is from the third one - which, to the best of my knowledge came out with Vol 13 - which is fairly recent (late last year-ish). And it's not Santa Claus that draws them either.

As to not being valid anymore, that's just stupid. Have you even looked at the picture? Alicia and Beth are there - #1 and #2 in both Clare's time (main box) and Clarice's time (bottom left). Sure it's been about a year or more since WE met Clarice, but for the characters it's been maybe a month tops. Or are you suggesting the Organization re-structures itself from top to bottom every few months? There may be misleading info in the databooks - like Teresa's and Clare's power levels, the 24 pieta warriors all marked as dead, etc - since it's written from a MiB perspective, but nothing outright wrong like that.

Cyclone

2008-05-01, 19:23

This could be a small continent, and not an island, so it is entirely possible that these people are not aware of any of this.

Helen said in the Slashers arc said (Viz version):
The's one of us assigned to each region of the continent.

Fenrir_valindri

2008-05-01, 19:27

Good memory, I had forgotten that the area they live on being referred to as a continent, although I think it is pretty obvious due to the size and environmental variety they have.

Cyclone

2008-05-01, 19:30

P.S: Will I always imagine the isolated continent (?) is something like Hyrule. XD The world portrayed in the Claymore universe might not reflect our world's geography, though they imitate medieval cultures.To have so many different weather properties such as blizzard, scorching dessert, rain forest.. It is an ideal place for the Organization to test their new stuff.

Starting to look more like the world from Dragon Quest. Even has an equivalent of the DoDs :) [I have no objections - DQ8 was one of the best RPGs of all time]

Fenrir_valindri

2008-05-01, 19:34

There are plenty of comparisons we could draw, but Claymore still has a very different feel from a vast majority of RPG worlds, at least until they start pulling out actual "magic" and humans that can easily slay powerful monsters. :eyebrow:

yezhanquan

2008-05-01, 20:12

79 is one of those chapters that make you go "I really, really, REALLY need the next one now!"

Fenrir_valindri

2008-05-01, 20:20

Most Claymores chapters are like that though, almost none of them end on some sort of conclusion. :heh:

hell88

2008-05-01, 20:33

Yeah the cliffehanger in this chapter made me jump through the roof!

derelict88

2008-05-01, 20:52

The sword is finally revealed. Well, somewhat... nice touch.

Vinak

2008-05-01, 21:32

Clare - Main Dps
Miria - Secondary DPS
Deneve - Main tank
Helen - Archer
Cynthia - Healer
Tabitha - Mage
Yuma - Moral support

wnmnkh

2008-05-01, 21:56

To be honest the story is too predictable....

Methuselah

2008-05-01, 22:00

Really? I cannot predict a seperate continent with a different faction that is going against our current conflict of Organization vs former Claymores vs. Awakening Ones vs. other Awakening Ones vs Yoma in the quest to gain land and seek the truth. There is too much going on. XD

Fenrir_valindri

2008-05-01, 22:09

To be honest the story is too predictable....

Predictability is something that I have never associated with Claymore, and if you somehow predicated this a long while back, good for you, 95%+ of the fan-base didn't.

yezhanquan

2008-05-01, 22:17

Predictability is something that I have never associated with Claymore, and if you somehow predicated this a long while back, good for you, 95%+ of the fan-base didn't.

I have to agree. Even though I did get the expanded part correct, I didn't quite expect the sensei to expand the world horizontally.

chibamonster

2008-05-01, 23:34

Thanks Derelict88! You perspirate awesomeness! Thanks for the translation :D. I have to spread more reputation before I can give you any more so you have to wait...

It sounds almost like AB's are too powerful to use for combat. As well as too unstable. It makes one wonder what Alicia/Beth would be able to do to the enemy forces. Or Riful, Isley Priscilla or the ghosts. Maybe the other side has been working on monsters as well, but I think it would be awesome if the MiB's weapons are much stronger than those dragon things.

Time for a G10 road trip to the coast!

Gooral

2008-05-02, 00:51

Yeah, thanks derelict. Wow, this chapter really is a turning point in Claymore.

To be honest the story is too predictable....
Well, yeah, but look at this forum. After constant talking about Claymore every possibility is being considered. I don't think Yagi could surprise us more without making story completely illogical where previous facts are being discarded.

Ryuken

2008-05-02, 00:58

Good work d88.;)

tenken627

2008-05-02, 01:02

Thanks a lot derelict. You the man!

francothewise

2008-05-02, 01:04

is it possible that Riful is under the organization's control all these times? She was the 1st generation of the female claymores and how she awakened was never revealed to us. Luciela's awakening was due to Raphaela's weak heart and was Organization's failure as portrayed in Cognates of Paradise while Isley openly sent 11 AB to attack the organization. Riful, however, was never seen directly opposing the organization. After Miria reveals the secret of the organization in chapter 79, would it not make sense that Riful knows about the experiment the organization is running and her job is to awaken the claymores? The weaker ABs that Riful manages to collect are killed while the strong ones are then allies of Riful...meaning Riful has control over them...if the AB's listen to Riful and Riful, somehow, listens to the organization, then the organization transitively controls all the AB's Riful manages to harvest. Just like the 6 armed AB in the slasher arc but different job. 6 armed AB's job is to kill claymores sent to him while riful's is to awaken strong claymores that she can find. Also in Cognates of Paradise, Riful told the 11 ABs that :"probably You were the ones who picked the wrong side". Perhaps she meant the organization vs. Isley?

EDIT: Also, this would explain why Riful controls some yomas herself since Yomas are strictly the organization's production.

of course it doesnt make much sense of how the organization is controlling Riful since they cannot control most AB but the 6 armed AB that the fab 4 faced comes to mind, it was clear that the 6 armed AB was under the organization's control.

I remember Riful told Galatea, Clare, and Jean how crafty the organization is and she does not like to have her strength measured...i cant quite explain that...but this is js a thought.

wat do ppl think?

tenken627

2008-05-02, 01:12

This is the part where I keep getting confused, because the other rough translation was kinda like this as well.

So the DoDs (Descendants of the Dragon or Dragon kin) quickly took control of the battle. And then around 100 years ago, they split into two factions and battled each other. One of the factions created a weapon that allows a human to turn into a monster (Awakened Beings).

So does this mean that the Organization used to be the DoDs? Before the DoDs split into two?

So it wouldn't be the MiBs fighting the DoDs, the MiBs are the DoDs and they are fighting against other DoDs.

chibamonster

2008-05-02, 01:55

I am very excited because this development means we will most likely be explicitly told how Claymores are created and what youma are. Just from explaining the swords durability it seems like Yagi is going to go into quite a level of detail that I was not expecting from him. We will find out who these MiB's are, what they want, about these dragons and on and on.

As Cyclone said, this also pins the MiB's as the real bad guys and opens more possibility for some form of forgiveness to Priscilla (even though Cyclone is not a fan of it like I am). The possibility is definitely opened for another level of monster with the dragon guys but I do not think the build up of power for the Abyssals and Priscilla will go to waste. I am guessing that AB's unreliability is their real issue, not their power because if the Dragon's are as powerful as AB's I would imagine that the war would have ended very very quickly.

Also with another land, even if it is covered in war, there is a possibility of a happy ending for some of the characters. Doubtful, but in a world without youma there is hope. Does anyone else think Miria sneaking into places or traveling around the continent is a funny image? I am seeing her phantom miraging her way into the library when they are locking up or miraging her way to other towns to ask people questions before getting back to her old area so her handlers don't know anything about it.

For a new chapter being out there sure is less conversation than I was anticipating... probably has to do with the raws and english not being out yet.

yezhanquan

2008-05-02, 02:47

chibamonster: I think all of us are still shocked and at a loss of words.

My personal parallel generating machine is going haywire. Somehow, I'm putting Claymore and D.Gray Man on the same level.

Somehow, I still have the idea that the other side is not delivering the final blow for some reason.

much like how the Earl could destroy much of the Order with a lvl 4 Akuma alone, but on the whole left the Order intact in the present arc.

Also, I think the dragons are on a duality track with the yoma, like two sides of the same coin. The two are afraid of each other.

much like the Noah and Innocence are afraid of each other. Noah can destroy Innocence, but the Innocence is also like poison to them.

Disclaimer: These are crack theories.

chibamonster

2008-05-02, 03:10

D.Gray man huh? I think that story has a lot of twists and turns up a head as well so it is hard for me to lay down solid similarities. Interesting that Bleach, Naruto, D. Gray man and Claymore have all had rather interesting plot developments for me in the last month or so. I wonder if they coordinate story arc timings to certain seasons or something? Probably just chance...

Interesting idea here; if the claymores themselves were enough to use against the other side wouldn't the MiB's have already used them?

There are a few reasons I would imagine the MiB's have not used them the biggest reason being awakenings. If pushed in battles Claymore's turning into AB's would not be a good thing. Also controllability; claymores often ask questions. Loyalty as well. How would you respond if you found out that the youma that ate your family and that you have dedicated your life to killing were created by your employers so you could become a weapon? Alicia and Beth seem to be what the organization really would want because they are a controllable weapon of mass destruction. Although unless they make more of them they still have the abyssals to worry about back home at the research lab. I would love to see Isley make it to the new land with Priscilla and claim it as his own, and then when the dragon lords or whatever send their troops he shows them what a monster truly is.

But if Claymores by themselves are really not enough to take out the dragon monsters then I think there is quite a bit of room for awesome fights in the future and all the #1 powered Claymores running around will certainly put to use (Alicia, Beth, Raphaela, Miata, the power jumping Clare, and possibly even the abyssals). Also with the soul link and partial awakening I see a definite possibility of being shown many more characters full awakened forms.

Looking back now, I really wonder if Riful knows this information. She is so curious she would have to know more and investigate if an information bomb like this was ever dropped on her. She really may not know. Isley might have an idea but Riful would do something about it. It is possibly part of her plan, but we do not know right now. I wonder what Riful's response would have been if Miria told her the same thing she just told all the ghosts.

Several chapters ago...

Clare: I have grown stronger than you think in these 7 years.
Riful: Oh? In those 7 years of training... So powerful that you can defeat me?
Clare: Even if I can't defeat you, escaping here is possible for me...
<Riful VS. Clare: The Stare Down BEGINS!>
Miria: <new phantom entrance!> Sorry to but in, but there is something I have to ask.
Riful: You are interrupting our stare down match cactus hair girl...
Miria: It's Miria, Phantom Ghost-Girl Miria but just call me Miria.
Riful: I'm a little busy right now.
Miria: Umm, just curious but you don't by chance know that this island is just a research laboratory to make Awakened Beings do you?
Riful: Ha! Trying to help your friend? Cheap tricks won't get someone as old as me little girl! ... eyes burning...
Miria: No really, we are going to destroy the organization because they created youma so they could make Awakened Beings to be soldiers on another continent where there are these way cool dragon things! Well that is the reason I am going but no one believes me when I tell them!
Helen to Deneve: There she goes again, telling us her CRAZY stories!
Clare: Eyes... watering... must not break... stare... Miria you are not helping!
Miria: I am totally being serious! Clare would believe me but she is never around! Raki this Raki that! I have tried to tell her like a dozen times and she NEVER LISTENS TO ME! CLARE! DID I TELL YOU ABOUT THE DRAGONS?!?! CAN YOU HEAR ME!? Earth to Clare.
Deneve: I can't believe we picked her as our leader. She acts so juvenile sometimes.
Helen: No kidding.
Riful: Ha you flinched!
Clare: No I did not!
Riful: Ha! You flinched again!
Clare: Wait, are you trying to throw dirt in my eyes with your ribbons!?
Riful: Pft, no.
Clare: You just did it again! That is cheating! You are just a big cheater! And you do not even have pupils anyway so how do I know if you are even looking at me?!?! I am out of here!
<Clare runs away with the ghosts.>
Riful: Gosh this is pathetic. Even with all these efforts I have not harvested a single one. Remember, you will pay dearly for this. (Rubs her eyes and puts some visine on them). What was that cactus ghost girl saying anyway? Hmm, I can't remember. It must not have been that important.
<elsewhere>
Clare: Were you saying something earlier Miria? Something before we talked with Audrey that new number 3?
Miria: Forget it. (Thinks to self: Some day there will be a perfect time for me to tell her...)
Clare: Wait, is that Galatea's youki signature?
...

The ghosts have been with Miria for 7 years without knowing this secret it seems. And Clare still has not told them her goals or past either.

zato_1one

2008-05-02, 04:35

So it wouldn't be the MiBs fighting the DoDs, the MiBs are the DoDs and they are fighting against other DoDs.

That's possible. It explains the weird looked of those MIB too.

I doubt that how much Teresa has known. Why did she hide her true power? And it seemed she knew that Yoma were created by the org.

Sci-Fi

2008-05-02, 05:08

Wonder if the Ghosts will travel to the 'other continent' to gather more intel? The manga will get even darker if that happened.

Anima

2008-05-02, 05:54

As Cyclone said, this also pins the MiB's as the real bad guys and opens more possibility for some form of forgiveness to Priscilla (even though Cyclone is not a fan of it like I am).
Uh.. I believe it was me not Cyclone but it doesn't matter really. I don't see how this would give any chance for Priscilla forgiveness. When I passed the judgment of "Priscilla must die" I didn't base that on the Org action or what not. I based it on the sole stupidity of that girl in Marked for Death arc. Of course, if I consider the larger perspective now and Priscilla is a "victim" of the Org, well, I .... am really sorry to say it but it does really give Clare a reason to overlook Priscilla revenge for now until they are done with the Org.

Again, I really don't know where are we headed from this point. Would the DoD discover this lab and send some dragons to exterminate the new weapon before it's dispatched for war?

chibamonster

2008-05-02, 06:20

Cyclone mentioned it in the Japanese manga thread where I was thinking of it, but I am okay with you thinking the same thing Anima :D.

Considering that every human death at the hands of youma and AB in the land is the organizations fault I agree that they are quite a bit to blame for just about everything. Priscilla's parents, Clare's family, every awakening, every black card, and most every other atrocity we have seen in Claymore all starts with them if Miria's info is correct. This means that AB's are no where near as responsible as the MiB's. Even joining forces with the AB's might not be a bad idea although I do not think it will happen. Anyway, I really want to see Priscilla fight some people at full power who are not characters I like. If she pulled a Rigardo on the ghosts at some point I would be full of tears.

I wonder how much power the organization has over the youma. If they can direct them to towns that might loosely organize where they attack or even target towns that do not pay. I do not think the organization has that much power over them once they are lose, but then again who knows. It seems there is a town they missed.

Gooral

2008-05-02, 08:46

Now it all makes sense why the org was so "reckless". It was the whole point to conduct experiments even if they seemed crazy. Chiba, as always You were right, MiB are mad scientists, whose playground is whole continent, and people are laboratory rats.
Sending powerful rookie to kill Teresa was a calculated risk, even if she didn't succeed they could always send someone else. They had nothing to lose (or so they thought) but could gain obedient warrior with fighting experience, disposing of problematic one at the same time. Teresa would be an excellent instructor. After all if they wanted Rambo, they needed to train rookies in real battle with tougher opponents than average AB. Maybe Priscilla's final test in becoming a perfect tool of war was to see if she could resist awakening in tough situation and defeat a foe far stronger than any AB. Or maybe they suspected Teresa wasn't as strong as they thought and wanted to confirm that. Probably they have written down specification of each hybridization to the slightest detail so they could repeat it once they discovered a worthy subject.
Now that we know they have backup it's not that strange that they easily rebuilt organization after it was almost wiped out by Luciella. It also makes more sense why there are only 47 claymores, why they even bother with rankings and why they continued soul-link experiment.

One thing that bothers me in this chapter is Miria's reasoning. Her hypothesis is based on mere circumstantial evidences. So what that there's another continent? That doesn't mean it was invaded by scientists with superior knowledge. So what that she couldn't find minerals from which swords were made of? Unless she searched every square meter of the whole "world" she's only jumping to conclusions. It's obvious that MiB wouldn't allow others to know which minerals are used as material for claymores. Also she could have seen these minerals, but that doesn't mean she would know that after processing it's used for her sword. Why did she hide this fact until now? Why did she enlightened noobs? How come MiB allowed her to access the archives, although no one managed that before and lived to speak about it? MiB suspected sth about Miria, sent her on dangerous missions and yet they didn't kill her. If they are experimenting on humans, killing someone who could mess with their studies and compromise their mission shouldn't bother them and would be a logical course of action. Either they were so full of themselves that they didn't consider her as a threat or they were just stupid enough to not notice someone was sniffing around.
So I wouldn't be surprised if what Miria said was a lie. Some parts of her story are definitely true but for now I don't believe in all of this.

Ryuken

2008-05-02, 09:10

Hmmmm!:eyebrow:

Chiba; Clair must be more mature now, don't you think so.
I don't think she will loose it go berserk the next time she sees Priscilla.

Than again I could be wrong.:heh:

Negativedark

2008-05-02, 09:25

chibamonster

2008-05-02, 09:39

You know, this is kind of like when Darth Vader told Luke Skywalker that he was his father; your mind goes reeling back through the last movie and a half and suddenly everything is seen in a new light. As Gooral mentioned, even the extra chapter with Clare's graduation makes a lot more sense. Also Teresa lying about her power can be seen in a new light because there would certainly be a reason if she knew something about this like was mentioned earlier (cyclone I think). Even Rubel's bizarre attitude towards the rest of the organization.

As I have not yet seen the raws in Japanese and am basing most of what I think off of derelict88's translation I do not know how circumspect Miria's evidence is. If nothing else we got to see pictures of the dragon troops. Once we have seen them they have to show up :). So while a lot might have changed during the organizations existence (like maybe all the wars are over, or they lost, or even won) I think a lot of the historical aspect is probably true. Without more information or even the raws it is hard to tell. Since the MiB's do not seem human, they might be dragons themselves. I am still laughing at the thought of Miria sneaking into the MiB's archives like Harry Potter into Hogwarts Library.

I certainly think there is a lot more to be revealed about the world of claymore but I am still shocked at how Yagi was able to pull so many things together with this information. I just chalked the swords and the extra chapter issues to the fictional world or to publication requirements. But he really put them together to make some sense out of it in a really developed way.

@Ryuken: As for Clare being more mature... she might be; I have yet to see it :D. I think she will fly off the handle next time something happens like a friend in danger or Priscilla/Raki. I mean she has been running off by herself for the last 7 years often enough that the ghosts still worry about her and send tag alongs to check on her. Maybe they are worried she would leave without them? She also pulls stunts like talking to Riful. Clare went berserk on Riful last time because Riful said she would only give her information if she landed a hit on her. This time Riful gave it to Clare after she said she would join her as Riful was more desperate to find a youki sensor/manipulator. Clare still did whatever Riful asked to get the information. I do not think we have seen the end of Berserker Clare until she resolves some of her internal issues and as that is a major part of the story we will know when it happens. I think she is even more burdened than before as the many souls inside of her will not allow her to rest.

And who thinks Raki's sword from Rabona ties into the worlds history? If Isley likes it we will probably see it again.

tenken627

2008-05-02, 09:50

That's possible. It explains the weird looked of those MIB too.

Yeah, that's what I'm wondering if that's what Miria meant.

Miria talks about the DoDs splitting into two factions after the DoDs get the upper hand. And then one faction makes ABs.

So basically one DoD faction is the Organization and they are fighting the other DoD faction?

irvinethearcher

2008-05-02, 09:52

I am asking me one thing: Did the org know about the fight between clare and rigardo? For the org clare must be the perfect weapon because she didn't even need a soul link to awaken body parts and control them.
And there is something else. From the first chapters we know that yoma who eat the brain of their victims gain their knowledge. Clare gave the org theresas head. Perhaps it is possible that clare gains the knowledge of theresa too. I am thinking about clares weired dream of theresa using premptive aura detection. Perhaps even theresas love for clare will play a role if clares compatibilty level(Fenrir) grows and in a way she will help her from the grave.
IMO we have to think straight forward. Yagi didn't do anything without a reason, we thought that it is simply be cool and that it was something yagi didn't thought of, that a claymore neve gets scratches but it had a deeper meaning, perhaps clare's dream did have one too.

the MIBs are probably the DoDs and very strong and resiliant and have a long time to live. IMO they are at least strong enough to get rid of the most yoma. Theresa suspected that something is wrong about the org, so she lied not to honor her comrade. She didn't know much but her instincts told her to mistrust the MiBs.
It is even possible that the mibs are strong like AO's but have a slow fertility rate or something like that and that they are few in numbers at both sides. Perhaps they need humans as canonfodder because her fertility rate is high. Speculations, speculations....

tenken627

2008-05-02, 10:06

I also wonder if the reason why we haven't seen any raws for this Chapter yet is because right now is Golden Week?

I guess we'll find out later tonight since it'll be May 3rd in Japan soon.

Gooral

2008-05-02, 10:27

With the swords.... A lot of work and people are required in the production of swords. You need the mines, and miners to get the ore. You need a foundery to refine and alloy the ore into usable metal. Finnally you need a smith to forge the metal into a sword. All of them require people and facilities. If no one ever ships ore or metal to the org than where do they get the matierals? Also there would be a noticable lack of facilities to forge the swords.
Well, yeah, but the production of such swords in claymore world isn't on a large scale since only 47 warriors are active for many years and trainees for the most part don't wield THE claymores but substitutes. True, many people are needed for manufacturing it so there could be some gossip about such a place, but they could all be in one isolated place where any outsider would be noticed not to mention an outsider who emits youki. The only problem would be with transporting them to HQ but that wouldn't be the case if manufacturing would take place exactly there (in HQ that is) or if they were transported by MiB themselves. Anyway, if someone would sniff around I don't think they wouldn't notice. They have already training camps and some secret village, why not a secret "sword-fabric"?
And about this hidden village, how come MiB left it unwatched and allowed Miria to gather information (she asked them about youma after all)?

chibamonster

2008-05-02, 10:29

Fenrir_valindri

2008-05-02, 10:32

Now that I have a clear translation (thanks derelict88!), my brain can process this all much better.

So from what we now know, the Organization is the "research branch" of one of the two DoD splits, and their using the humans as experimental cattle for the Awakened Beings.

The Swords must have been their original weapons for warring with each other, due to their tough hides.

Yoma might have been the original weapon developed to battle them, perhaps not much stronger, but they could shapeshift.

Then they found humans could be turned into monstrous Awakened Beings, but were too powerful to be controlled and often killed both sides.

Then they took a few steps back and created hybrids, that were more manageable, but still weren't completely loyal (unlike the Yoma) due to their individuality.

Alicia and Beth are what they are looking for, and have succeeded in creating, Army-destroying weapons that are perfectly obedient.

tenken627

2008-05-02, 10:46

The Swords must have been their original weapons for warring with each other, due to their tough hides.

You know Fenrir, that makes a lot of sense. Only the most durable and sharpest swords would penetrate those hard hides. The Claymore swords works here.

Then they found humans could be turned into monstrous Awakened Beings, but were too powerful to be controlled and often killed both sides.

Then they took a few steps back and created hybrids, that were more manageable, but still weren't completely loyal (unlike the Yoma) due to their individuality.

Alicia and Beth are what they are looking for, and have succeeded in creating, Army-destroying weapons that are perfectly obedient.

I was also thinking about this. If the MiBs created Awakened Beings before relocating to the Claymore continent, that means that they would have had to make Claymores before relocating to the continent too.

I am not sure if these early Claymores would include Isley's generation since he is supposedly from the first, or if the Organization started counting their generations after they relocated.

Or it could be as you say and that ABs came before hybrids.

I don't know if the early Claymores used in the war would include Isley's generation because why would Isley, Rigaldo, and Duph follow the Organization to the Claymore continent if they were already awakened? Unless these three were not ABs at that time, and awakened later.

irvinethearcher

2008-05-02, 10:55

No I do not think the organization knows about the fight between Rigardo and Clare. The only people who know are the ghosts and the AB's who were there. The ghosts wont talk and the AB's are all dead, killed by Alicia/Beth and by Riful/Duff.

Now here is a question: What does this history have to do with partial awakenings? Miria first brought this subject up after addressing the matter of partial awakenings but then decided to wait 49 chapters before telling the fab 4 what the secret was. I do not think it was coincidence that the fab 4 all happened to have crossed their limit and returned and that they were all sent to die. Is it just quality control for the awakened being research facility? There must be something there...

Yeah probably you're right about that noone knows about the fight.
IMO half-awakening is an unwanted phenomenon. The org were never interested in claymores, they wanted controlable Abyssal Ones, so the DoDs must be very strong. Ermita seemed very surprised about the phenomenon of half awakening. But if they didn't know about it, why did they put miria, clare, deneve and helen in one group, that they're all problem children isn't enough they knowed that all of them were partial awakened. My conclusion: The org knows about the half - awakening state but they considered the claymores who achieved it as garbage or perhaps as dangerous? The org wanted to get rid of those claymores. Exception: Clare(after ophelia fight) because she's special and she combines three exceptions, two known by the org:
1. half - awakening
2. Warrior created from another warrior
3. partial - awakening and control during battle(probably unknown by the org)

But IMO clare will stay unique and difficult to copy by the org because there are many circumstances which probably made her what she's know:
1. Theresa's power
2. Clare's extremly fanatical mentality and her hot tempererd nature
3. Her half - awakenings
4. Irene's arm could have some influence too because it could have added a knew ability into clare's arsenal.
5. Raki's help(?)
6. (My speculation: theresas memorys, love for clare)

Probably the org allways wanted(as said from other users) alicia/beth as weapons and not an unstable failure like clare.

Anyway, if someone would sniff around I don't think they wouldn't notice. They have already training camps and some secret village, why not a secret "sword-fabric"?
And about this hidden village, how come MiB left it unwatched and allowed Miria to gather information (she asked them about youma after all)?

Those are interesting questions.
1. I think they don't notice because they are probably not able to sense yoki, remember that they needed galatea to investigate. No, perhaps they are able to sense yoki, because they allways found her claymores to give them black cards and missions. But they are not as good as galatea but perhaps all the places were meeting points which are known to claymores and mibs? So at the end it could be that Dods/mibs are not able to sense yoki, even if they are strong.
2. Because the minerals are probably the key to manifacture the claymores
3. Miria came arround and kept her eyes open, not like normal claymores. A claymore like miria is probably very fast and can explore a vaste area in one day or few hours during her missions. I you think that claymores normaly walk to her missions and not run to it with the speed of a cheetah. Claymores were never in a hurry to get to her targets so there were plenty of time for research about minerals.
But miria said that she found the information about the village in the reports of the org, she didn't detect it by herself.

Vinak

2008-05-02, 11:56

Don't you think it would have been more efficient to select soldiers that volunteered to become claymores and awaken on there own instead of using traumatized children?

And then only use the soldiers that still obeyed orders to be sent to the frontline?
why didn't they send that 6 armed AB to the frontline?

Ryuken

2008-05-02, 11:56

You know Fenrir, that makes a lot of sense. Only the most durable and sharpest swords would penetrate those hard hides. The Claymore swords works here.

The Swords must have been their original weapons for warring with each other, due to their tough hides.

About the swords, it took Deneve two tries and Undine's help to cut the turtle guys head right. That guy surely must have had a tough hide.:heh:

Goofus Maximus

2008-05-02, 12:10

and don't forget Duph and Riful. Duph had an almost Claymore-proof exterior, and Riful's ribbons required special heavy attacks to cut through.

zato_1one

2008-05-02, 12:13

I also doubt how can Miria gather all of these information from the org. And the village that doesn't know about Yoma. How can that happen? The org. has already divided the continent into 47 regions which mean they should explore all areas. :confused: This is far too reckless.

My speculation is that there is a spy in the org. He plan to destroy the org. He helped provide the information to disobedient Claymore. He secretly helped Miria to gather all information. He also let Clare to investigate about Teresa incident inside the org. Yes, I suspect that that man is Rubel! :cool:

Edit: About Miria travel around over the continent. I think she's fortunate to be a single digit and has Mirage skill. I guess she wandered around the entire area before she went to the AB hunt meeting point. :p

Vinak

2008-05-02, 12:16

*gasp* nooo not Rubel!!!

hehe, that is actually pretty interesting idea. What if Rubel really did instigate all this and had Miria "discover" all of this information and start a rebellion.

He needs to take a few lessons from Clare though...his Slouch hat and sun glasses totally give him away.

Ryuken

2008-05-02, 12:19

@Ryuken: As for Clare being more mature... she might be; I have yet to see it :D. I think she will fly off the handle next time something happens like a friend in danger or Priscilla/Raki. I mean she has been running off by herself for the last 7 years often enough that the ghosts still worry about her and send tag alongs to check on her. Maybe they are worried she would leave without them? She also pulls stunts like talking to Riful. Clare went berserk on Riful last time because Riful said she would only give her information if she landed a hit on her. This time Riful gave it to Clare after she said she would join her as Riful was more desperate to find a youki sensor/manipulator. Clare still did whatever Riful asked to get the information. I do not think we have seen the end of Berserker Clare until she resolves some of her internal issues and as that is a major part of the story we will know when it happens. I think she is even more burdened than before as the many souls inside of her will not allow her to rest.

Yeah.! I guess your right.
Even now she is unpredictable as ever. I mean that stunt, you mentioned that she took staying behind for a chat with Riful. Even after Miria had given all of them a specific order to scatter in all directions. She ignored it.:twitch:

I don't think the rest of the fab7 even predicted, realized or saw that one coming.:D

Fenrir_valindri

2008-05-02, 12:21

It is possible that the village that Miria discovered simply never had Yoma deployed to its area, implying that the Yoma are limited in number.

Miria is also quite capable of exploring the continent fairly quickly if she decided to move at a faster-then-walking pace, as Claymores don't get tired easily, and she is extremely fast.

Miria also mentioned she peaked at the Organization's archives didn't she?

---

As for the Swords not being able to pierce certain hides, it could just be a matter of strength, the Sword is sharp and strong enough to cut through the hide, but the users just aren't strong enough to do it.

Just like not everyone can cut through armor with a Great sword, but Great swords are certainly capable of cutting through it.

---

Rubel could be a spy for the other half of the DoD, and wants to allow the Claymores to rebel to shut down their enemies "weapon development" program.

Rubel does seem to offer up more information then he should to warriors, and less then he should to the Organization.

Sleepy Speculator

2008-05-02, 12:36

I can't believe it took me this long to find a translation without knowing the story through all the pandemonium this chapters thrown up, i guess those battle scenes took a month to draw... but let me ask did you miss me guys...

Ah where to begin... :) this is where my lightning fast speculation comes into play...

- Point 1. Has yagi been reading these message boards, i myself got involved in one of the 'why didn't the swords ever break arguments'... lol

- Point 2. It's never mentioned that the continent/land is actually an island. An archipeligo such as connected mainlaind Britain to the continent before sea levels rose would be perfectly sufficient and Britain like Japan has mountains/snow/plains/forests etc. Though i admit no desert. (yeah cheers to whoever made references to britainnia early in this thread...)

- Point 3. Unknown village... who are they trading with? strikes me that this is the road through which the org's lands is connected to the rest of their lands (which incidentally don't have a pronounced yoma problem or claymores.) It's mentioned as being in the south west of the Org's HQ, the org is in the east, perfect place to bottleneck an island/spit of land and receive supplies. Helps explain the density of yoma and scarcity of towns around the orgs HQ. (Teresa's little runaway stint, highlighted some disturbance with regards to trainees actually escaping in the HQ's area.)

Point 4. Ocean, yes there's got to be a sea, i believe it can be seen at the start of the AB hunt that Clare takes with Ophelia, so why was that fishing village so decimated anyway/? Doesn't raki say they've walked to the end of the continent?

Point 5. Nearly all the male AB's looked like veteran warriors and they were bottled up in the north, it's why Isley had so much more war potential than Riful. Why were they so pre-occupied with avoiding the south? And why was the org sending so many boy orphans north, as food?

Point 6. Prison guards or experimental subjects? One of many or an exceptional few? hah so much more new stuff to talk to with regards to the claymores.

Point 7. Cynthia's offering a hand helping Galatea heal... Yoki manipulation from another 'defensive' claymore... (sorry couldn't help myself it's a spec on another thread)

Point 8. A superior predator 'yoma' is usually unknown in other lands, but the DOD or whatever wasn't? Anychance this is a demons vs dragons thing?

Flar it was me that send the Lune thing...

Ryuken

2008-05-02, 12:42

and don't forget Duph and Riful. Duph had an almost Claymore-proof exterior, and Riful's ribbons required special heavy attacks to cut through.

I think its a little different for Duph and Riful as far as a tough hide goes. Although with Duph, I think only parts of his body were weak against the standard sword slash. With the exception of Jean's drill sword which could penetrate almost anything as it was a special move.

I think the drill sword would have done a pretty good job even against Riful's ribbons. Other than that I don't see anything penetrating that monstrous hide at that time that is.

PS - Things are a little different now(chapter 79) aren't they.:D

irvinethearcher

2008-05-02, 12:43

Don't forget that miria accordingly to derelicts spoiler didn't explore the village. It was mentioned in one of the reports from other claymores in the headquater of the organisation that such a village existed but miria didn't find it, she only read about it. Rubel could be a spy because he didn't inform the others about the possiblitiy that miria could have survived with the other warriors.

khryoleoz

2008-05-02, 12:48

What the? Something's inconsistent here. When did they all unanimously come to an agreement that they are on their trek to ruin the org? Just a few chapters back, Clare decides to go off on her own, to look for Raki and presumably find Priscilla. Miria decided to disband the group and follow Clare, but the group decided to follow Miria anyway, which means the group is following Miria who is following Clare.

So where does Miria come off as being spokesman for the group about their collective purpose?

It seems like that vacation made Yagi forget what propelled the group's journey south.

Awakened

2008-05-02, 12:59

irvinethearcher

2008-05-02, 12:59

So where does Miria come off as being spokesman for the group about their collective purpose?

It seems like that vacation made Yagi forget what propelled the group's journey south.

Wrong! Miria said that the next fight will go against the very idea of caring about survival. According to this, she knowed against what she intended to fight because normaly there is no warrior in the org except alicia ,which has to stay as a watch tower, who could defeat the ghosts and even alicia couldn't do anything against sneak attacks(riful was helpless too).

zato_1one

2008-05-02, 13:04

In chapter 67, Miria said she will go south with Clare and exact revenge for her comrades. Others also wanted revenge and decided to go with them. So it can be concluded that their main objective is destroying the org.

- Point 3. Unknown village... who are they trading with? strikes me that this is the road through which the org's lands is connected to the rest of their lands (which incidentally don't have a pronounced yoma problem or claymores.) It's mentioned as being in the south west of the Org's HQ, the org is in the east, perfect place to bottleneck an island/spit of land and receive supplies. Helps explain the density of yoma and scarcity of towns around the orgs HQ. (Teresa's little runaway stint, highlighted some disturbance with regards to trainees actually escaping in the HQ's area.)

Oh! It sounds make more sense now. As Raphaela had stated that how could little Teresa go pass through the deep forest. It's not that little Teresa could handle Yoma at that age but it's because that forest didn't have Yoma in the first place!

irvinethearcher

2008-05-02, 13:10

Perhaps but it would have made no difference even little theresa should be stronger than any yoma and should be able to kill them with her bare hands.

Sleepy Speculator

2008-05-02, 13:16

EDIT: says right near the end it's an island... sigh but still...

zato_1one

2008-05-02, 13:23

Gooral

2008-05-02, 13:26

(...)
Oh! It sounds make more sense now. As Raphaela had stated that how could little Teresa go pass through the deep forest. It's not that little Teresa could handle Yoma at that age but it's because that forest didn't have Yoma in the first place!
No. Raphaela explicitly said that in this forest youma and wild animals roam. She would definitely know if youma were in this forest or not. Also this village was closest *known* village to organization not this particular hidden village where there were no claymores. What's more "closest to organization" doesn't mean closest to their HQ. Besides what would be the point in training claymores if they hadn't any youma to fight with.

Awakened

2008-05-02, 13:33

Miria phantom ability is great for spying, she can use phantom to spass by guards without them knowing. Emagine a guard closing a door, he hears a noise, he look back. without him knowing Miria could have enterd the room. If he looks the door, Miria will have to use her lock picking skills to get out, but getting in should not be that hard for her.

Vinak

2008-05-02, 13:59

what lock picking skills?

and her phantom leaves an after image...useless when you are trying to go unseen

Awakened

2008-05-02, 14:18

what lock picking skills?

and her phantom leaves an after image...useless when you are trying to go unseen

she could be in a conner, out of sight to start out, then use phantom to get to the next location.

Lock picking: she would just have to beable to open doors that are locked. But if she gets her hand on the keys then she won't need lock picking skills.

Fenrir_valindri

2008-05-02, 15:04

It is entirely possible that the After-image is completely optional, and even if it wasn't, Miria would still be one of the fastest Claymores out there.

chibamonster

2008-05-02, 15:47

How exactly would one manipulate youki to help Galatea heal if your youki is cloaked? Unless the ghosts have gotten really good at quick draw youki cloaking then I would advise against it. If they could cloak quickly then that would really be something but from Irene's talk to Clare it does not seem to be a quick process. It would be a very hand skill if it was quick though.

Clarice is probably going to cry again with all this information. It would be very interesting if a full blown war against the organization started up very quickly here.

And actually Japan does have a desert. It is not big, but the tottori dunes look convincing enough for me :D.

Sordes Pilosus

2008-05-02, 16:43

Most likly this action proves that its possible to use at the very least a "Smal Amount of Youki" and stil recloack as before. Most likly it would only if we considered the signals like a radar like smal blimps for a short duration before disapearing again.

hell88

2008-05-02, 18:07

Mabye if the ghosts kept on training thier yoki to be suppressed then not suppressed on a daily basis in the past seven years then mabye they would be able to use thier yoki and cloak themselves as quick as they want. Unlike Irene who never did that, all she did was keep it supressed. So if she realeased her yoki it would be hard for her to supress it because she never practiced it.

Sleepy Speculator

2008-05-02, 18:16

I can't answer your question chiba... it just seems that Cynthia's dropped her cloak if that's the way it works, but she's not the only one, Miata and Galatea both are unsupressed at the moment.

I could be wrong but the way i read the translation by thistle/? it's Galatea saying that Cynthia was using yoki to help her regenerate, but she didn't need the help because she's already defensive.

Awakened

2008-05-02, 18:37

Fenrir_valindri

2008-05-02, 18:52

I don't think a yoki-manipulator can help an Offensive heal a limb, but it is known that Galatea is a defensive, Cynthia made it pretty clear she just wanted to help speed up the process.

---------

I believe Miria already said they are going to war with the Organization, so it looks like they are dropping stealth either way, stealth doesn't have a use if their going head to head with the Organization. So it is probably perfectly acceptable to drop their stealth, especially if they are picking up tag-alongs.

Panzerklein

2008-05-02, 19:29

Ps about the Ocean in Claymore. Check Chapter 31 Page 17. Look in the background, you will notice a clear differance in whats the sky and what looks like a ocean ?

You mean this picture:
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j1/infernus9/Freedom/Claymorev06119.jpg
In my data, that is chapter 31 page 16 or vol 6 page 119. The sea after ruined town is very clear and Clare's hair is flew by sea's wind is sure.

Awakened

2008-05-02, 19:52

The only question I have about this chapter is howcome the DoD did not try to destroy the Org, they have been experimenting for about 100yr. Thats a long time to go unnoticed.

Am not to consured about the people not knowing that there is a nother world out there. Just look at North Coria. The Org could have made yomas the captain of every ship, so they will have a monopoly on ships. Whith their monopoly they can say there is no land, and eventualy people will stop trying to find land.

If Ruble is a spy, or the DoD have a spy in the Org, then I can acceped the DoD not doing anything about the Org. 100yr is a long time to go unnoticed.

It could just be that the Org are far behind enemy lines, so its hard to get to them. But for that to be true, the Org and their allies have to be strong enought to stop a DoD advance.

GundamZZ

2008-05-02, 21:36

Am I the only one who thinks it's the conspiracy for MMORPG and season 2 plot.

Sci-Fi

2008-05-03, 02:08

Another possibility is that the Org is supplying both sides of the war. Ships appear/hinted to be going out to sea on a regular basis.

tenken627

2008-05-03, 03:24

Still nothing. It seems like Square Jump won't come out until the middle of next week due to Golden Week (ends Monday I think). So we probably won't see raws out for a few more days.

chibamonster

2008-05-03, 03:38

This is insane. At least we have seen the Chinese scans already and had some translations for them. This is much better than last month when "surprise! no claymore!"

Taylor_Maclaurin

2008-05-03, 04:25

This is insane. At least we have seen the Chinese scans already and had some translations for them. This is much better than last month when "surprise! no claymore!"
Does anyone know how's possible that Chinese scans are before "uncooked" ? And this isn't the first time it was like that.

Ryuken

2008-05-03, 04:42

yezhanquan

2008-05-03, 04:58

I think some of us are not quite certain if the Chinese translation is the real deal. I personally think that they nailed it quite a bit. Not that I read Chinese subs from way back, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

Sleepy Speculator

2008-05-03, 06:28

If it ain't the real deal, then this ain't the only forum hit... apparently some people on other forums have said the chinese sites the scans came from are in uproar...

mosmos

2008-05-03, 07:38

there are surely loopholes here and there in any manga which do not make sense.

But I will stick to my theory that MIBs are half hobbits, half yoma = weakest creation that cannot awaken.
I make no sense too... Yeah !

irvinethearcher

2008-05-03, 08:26

No. Raphaela explicitly said that in this forest youma and wild animals roam. She would definitely know if youma were in this forest or not. Also this village was closest *known* village to organization not this particular hidden village where there were no claymores. What's more "closest to organization" doesn't mean closest to their HQ. Besides what would be the point in training claymores if they hadn't any youma to fight with.

Perhaps yagi intended to say with rafaella's quote that theresa simply avoided the yoma's with her sensing ability. Sure there is the possiblity that there were no yoma at all but the most probable explaination is that she avoided them and raphalella wondered how someone could have such a good sensing.

But i like the idea of "sleepy_speculator" that behind the org in the east is perhaps a long tongue of the main continent seperated from the claymore island by a small channel like gibraltar or dover calais. It would make sense that all the ships which tried to find a new Continent started in the opposite direction and not from the ports in the east but from the ports in the west and so they didn't find the main land.

yezhanquan

2008-05-03, 08:54

I'm more for the idea that there's only 1 port which is capable of crossing to the other side, and the MIB watched it so tightly that not even a fly could enter or leave without them knowing.

Remember: this side of the world is pretty bleak, and most humans were content just to be alive. That's why I hope it'll be a bit different on the other side.

hell88

2008-05-03, 10:20

Hell didn't you notice that Clair took care of Agasa without releasing any of her Yoki.:eyebrow:

How can you say she didn't? She could have, but what all the ghosts could have done is that they could have trained themselves to use there techniques without using much yoki at all like mabye 3% yoki. That small amount of yoki probably wouldn't even be tracked by the org because they would think its just some weak yoma running around. Some of the attacks that the ghosts could have been using didn't look like they needed yoki anyway.

But that doesn't really matter. I think you missed my point. I was saying how if the ghosts kept on using there yoki in the north and supressing it after every time they used it, they would eventually be able to use a large amount of yoki and be able to supress it themselves right away so no one would notice. Like when Clare attacked Agatha and Galatea didn't notice it. That could have been Clare using yoki really fast then supressing it. Or when Miria and Helen attacked they could have done that with there yoki too. Anyways I'm not saying this is what they could have done but I'm saying this is probably one of the things they were training in the past seven years in the north. Like when I said Irene couldn't supress her yoki because she never practiced it, all she did was supress it all the time so she wouldn't be noticed but that backfired eventually because Raphaela found her and the rest is history.

Ryuken

2008-05-03, 10:57

How can you say she didn't? She could have, but what all the ghosts could have done is that they could have trained themselves to use there techniques without using much yoki at all like mabye 3% yoki. That small amount of yoki probably wouldn't even be tracked by the org because they would think its just some weak yoma running around. Some of the attacks that the ghosts could have been using didn't look like they needed yoki anyway.

But that doesn't really matter. I think you missed my point. I was saying how if the ghosts kept on using there yoki in the north and supressing it after every time they used it, they would eventually be able to use a large amount of yoki and be able to supress it themselves right away so no one would notice. Like when Clare attacked Agatha and Galatea didn't notice it. That could have been Clare using yoki really fast then supressing it. Or when Miria and Helen attacked they could have done that with there yoki too. Anyways I'm not saying this is what they could have done but I'm saying this is probably one of the things they were training in the past seven years in the north. Like when I said Irene couldn't supress her yoki because she never practiced it, all she did was supress it all the time so she wouldn't be noticed but that backfired eventually because Raphaela found her and the rest is history.

Hmmmmm:eyebrow:

Needing just a little bit of Yoki release to pull off special moves.
Thanks for clearing that up Hell.:)

Fenrir_valindri

2008-05-03, 13:21

From what we know of Yoki-suppression, using any Yoki at all makes you detectable, so I doubt they would risk being detected in the North while training. It is just too risky. Also, using Yoki brings you closer to awakening, and after 7 years they probably would have awakened from those small Yoki-bursts, even if the Fab 4 are exceptions to this rule due to their unique state, the other 3 aren't.

So using Yoki while training in the North is way too dangerous.

Not to mention the Ghosts themselves have stated that they have not used Yoki in the 7 years of their training, thus the reason they can't be detected.

-----

Yoma being used to keep humans from reaching the main-continent in port cities actually sounds quite plausible, Yoma's shape-shifting nature would make something like that extremely easy for the Organization.

-----

The MiB are also DoD, so it makes sense that the opposing side wouldn't have found them quite so easily, especially if they have clearly defined battle lines.
From the sound of it both sides are in a tech-war to get the better weapons first, implying that their is some sort of stalemate.

Cadorna

2008-05-03, 14:52

mmmm and the other side finding the lab would be a disasters for the land (Little island), so we have a 3 front battle ahead maybe

Ryuken

2008-05-03, 15:09

From what we know of Yoki-suppression, using any Yoki at all makes you detectable, so I doubt they would risk being detected in the North while training. It is just too risky. Also, using Yoki brings you closer to awakening, and after 7 years they probably would have awakened from those small Yoki-bursts, even if the Fab 4 are exceptions to this rule due to their unique state, the other 3 aren't.

So using Yoki while training in the North is way too dangerous.

Not to mention the Ghosts themselves have stated that they have not used Yoki in the 7 years of their training, thus the reason they can't be detected.

That would means Yoki suppression makes stronger claymores. With training that is.
Suppression with training..........hmmmm.:eyebrow:

Hell@ Care to alaborate on this, as you must know that this is something that we had talked about earlier.:heh:

Ancient Soul

2008-05-03, 15:57

Hello everyone!I'm new her.
I read from sometime this forum and i decided to join.

I must admit i'm a Galatea fanboy.Why? : She like childrens!A+ in my book.
(She got me in The Witch's Maw 4 when :
Galatea : "You're lighter than you look.""Eat more."
Clare : "!!?"
MY ADD : Inner Clare (same as Miata) : "Mama!!?".

About the new chapter (80) i simply have a shock when i readed the translation of derlict88.The world is now THE WORLD (like in the Hack SAGA).

I'm sad because Galatea can't regenerate his eyes any longer, but i think she can have a transplant from another claymore, after all Clare have taken a whole arm from Irene.Until now i tought that Clare is the one who is going berserk in Claymore , but it seem that Miria's hate against THE ORG make her become like Clare.He want to risk all of them against Alicia&Beth + MiBs + other Claymores when he was afraid of Riful (The Defiant Ones 2 :
Miria : This is..an Abyssal One....?)(Helena : This isn't fuuny!) and run from her?

Why no one attack The Island?Because if you have a secret agent there is no need to waste resources when you have all the informations you want. Also an attack with strong forces against a remote island very far from your realm is an invitation to attack for the enemy.

NOW i'm not sure if this is the right threat for the next rows but since is my first TRUE post i hope i will not upset anyone.

What i think :

About Miata & Clarice :
Clarice has the blood of Luciela (remember Blood give speed and Flesh give strenght (I think Clare said this) Miata has the blood&flesh of Luciela (he kill AB with bare hands , until now
only Theresa has show such strenght). They share the same AO blood so maybe they have the same smell and because of that Miata think that Clarice is her mama.This will be the motive for Rafaela to join The Rebellion.(Rubel told Clare something about how she smell once)

About AO vs AO fights :
To win you must have +1 than the enemy because like Isley and Luciela showed they became very weak after a fight and need protection from one as strong as them.

About Rubel :
I think not only is a double agent but a triple one, informing all sides about the experiments (Humans/DODs/Dissidents DODs)
(I'm not sure from the translation if there are two or three sides !?).

About why Rubel is smailing all the time :
I think that the combined power of (Riful/Isley/Priscilla/Alicia+Beth)+Rafaela+Clare+Miata
is enough to turn the tides of war for one side or another, but no one can control such power so :1. No one can cotrol this Power. 2. All want that Power.
He probable find this amusing all the time.

My plan sugestion for Miria :

1. Join with Miata+Clarice & Galatea.
2. Ask The Holy City for Sanctuary (become even baptised if needed!)
(I think that Claymores may become something of an ORDER within the Church - because
if the Church said "This are warriors of God sent to us to be eliberated from the threat of youma" - (The Church is the only organisated structure i saw in Claymore , THE ORG not included , so priests words may have some power over the people )- i thing that the common people will accept them as they are after such a "political" move - they normal outfits make them look like Paladins , now they look like a Death Squad)
3. Search with Miata for Rafaela (and i hope Irene).
4. Now the G11(or G12 if Irene is alive) make a deal with Riful&Dauf.
5. Contact Rubel and ask for informations.
6. Have a chat with Isley (ask him to join them or be neutral).
(But if Isley+Priscilla attack them this may be a problem).
7. Attack ORG HQ.

But they can convince Riful&Isley only if they proof that someone among them is stronger
that them (The Chosen One Clare) , because in Claymore the stronger take all , even Isley
surrended to Priscilla.

How can Clare become stronger than an AO?
My sugestion : The CONJUNCTION.

Rafaela soul-link with clare.Clare awaken.
Galatea telling Rafaela+Clare about the weak spots of the enemy also
making sure that Rafaela don't crack (maybe she will also soul-link with them
sharing clare's mind with Rafaela!).
Galatea + Rafaela + Clare , imagine that!
The G7 + Miata protecting Rafaela and Galatea.

Victory in three seconds and all of us (and Helen's apple) still in shock and awe!

Fenrir_valindri

2008-05-03, 16:25

Hello everyone!I'm new her.
I read from sometime this forum and i decided to join.

Welcome aboard!

I must admit i'm a Galatea fanboy.Why? : She like childrens!A+ in my book.
(She got me in The Witch's Maw 4 when :
Galatea : "You're lighter than you look.""Eat more."
Clare : "!!?"
MY ADD : Inner Clare (same as Miata) : "Mama!!?".

Heh, yeah, Galatea knows how to make a scene.

About the new chapter (80) i simply have a shock when i readed the translation of derlict88.The world is now THE WORLD (like in the Hack SAGA).

Chapter 79 actually. But they Claymore comparison to .hack is quite flawed, as Claymores are in an experiment, while the people in .hack knew they were in a fake world, except for that 1 guy in the anime.

I'm sad because Galatea can't regenerate his eyes any longer, but i think she can have a transplant from another claymore, after all Clare have taken a whole arm from Irene.Until now i tought that Clare is the one who is going berserk in Claymore , but it seem that Miria's hate against THE ORG make her become like Clare.He want to risk all of them against Alicia&Beth + MiBs + other Claymores when he was afraid of Riful (The Defiant Ones 2 :
Miria : This is..an Abyssal One....?)(Helena : This isn't fuuny!) and run from her?

I think that Galatea going the blind-nun route is actually quite an interesting choice for Yagi, just be glad she is alive. :heh:

I doubt Miria will go berserk like Clare did, Miria has patiently trained 7 years in the North, and who knows how long since Hilda's death, to take down the Organization. Clare is the one who flies off the handle as soon as Priscilla is mentioned, hope she has gotten better after the past 7 years.

Why no one attack The Island?Because if you have a secret agent there is no need to waste resources when you have all the informations you want. Also an attack with strong forces against a remote island very far from your realm is an invitation to attack for the enemy.

It could be deep in their territory, thus the enemy might not even know about it. Not to mention ABs roam this place, they can destroy armies.

NOW i'm not sure if this is the right threat for the next rows but since is my first TRUE post i hope i will not upset anyone.

No problem, always good to see new faces.

What i think :

About Miata & Clarice :
Clarice has the blood of Luciela (remember Blood give speed and Flesh give strenght (I think Clare said this) Miata has the blood&flesh of Luciela (he kill AB with bare hands , until now
only Theresa has show such strenght). They share the same AO blood so maybe they have the same smell and because of that Miata think that Clarice is her mama.This will be the motive for Rafaela to join The Rebellion.(Rubel told Clare something about how she smell once)

Nothing has ever been said about Yoma flesh/blood doing specific things, Clare was just talking about being turned into a hybrid.

I don't think Miata has anyone's flesh in her, she is just like Teresa/Priscilla, a prodigy.

About AO vs AO fights :
To win you must have +1 than the enemy because like Isley and Luciela showed they became very weak after a fight and need protection from one as strong as them.

Yeah, but Isley had Priscilla as back-up, so he was fine, Lucalea wanted Raphaela to be her back-up, but that obviously didn't go her way.

About Rubel :
I think not only is a double agent but a triple one, informing all sides about the experiments (Humans/DODs/Dissidents DODs)
(I'm not sure from the translation if there are two or three sides !?).

I'm not sure what to think of Rubel, guess time will tell.

About why Rubel is smailing all the time :
I think that the combined power of (Riful/Isley/Priscilla/Alicia+Beth)+Raphaela+Clare+Miata
is enough to turn the tides of war for one side or another, but no one can control such power so :1. No one can cotrol this Power. 2. All want that Power.
He probable find this amusing all the time.

I think any one of them could turn the tide of the war, judging by what the Organization has said about Alicia/Beth. I think Rubel just has its own plan.

My plan sugestion for Miria :

1. Join with Miata+Clarice & Galatea.
2. Ask The Holy City for Sanctuary (become even baptised if needed!)
(I think that Claymores may become something of an ORDER within the Church - because
if the Church said "This are warriors of God sent to us to be eliberated from the threat of youma" - (The Church is the only organisated structure i saw in Claymore , THE ORG not included , so priests words may have some power over the people )- i thing that the common people will accept them as they are after such a "political" move - they normal outfits make them look like Paladins , now they look like a Death Squad)
3. Search with Miata for Rafaela (and i hope Irene).
4. Now the G11(or G12 if Irene is alive) make a deal with Riful&Dauf.
5. Contact Rubel and ask for informations.
6. Have a chat with Isley (ask him to join them or be neutral).
(But if Isley+Priscilla attack them this may be a problem).
7. Attack ORG HQ.

1) Think this is already happening.
2) Think Rabona will be behind the Ghosts, especially if they learn this information, not to mention the Org wouldn't care about Rabona offering sanctuary.
3) They don't know Raphaela left the Organization, or that she could be a potential ally.
4) Don't think they will make a deal with Awakened Beings, not to mention Riful is pretty upset with them.
5) That might actually happen.
6) I doubt this would happen, Isley is responsible for the deaths of their comrades in the North, and Clare has a vendetta against Priscilla. Not to mention they are man eating monsters.
7) I think they are going to do this alot sooner then most think.

But they can convince Riful&Isley only if they proof that someone among them is stronger
that them (The Chosen One Clare) , because in Claymore the stronger take all , even Isley
surrended to Priscilla.

Riful wants to be second to none. Isley is in power, as he is manipulating Priscilla, despite her superior power. This issue of Clare and Priscilla still stands.

How can Clare become stronger than an AO?
My sugestion : The CONJUNCTION.

Rafaela soul-link with clare.Clare awaken.
Galatea telling Rafaela+Clare about the weak spots of the enemy also
making sure that Rafaela don't crack (maybe she will also soul-link with them
sharing clare's mind with Rafaela!).
Galatea + Rafaela + Clare , imagine that!
The G7 + Miata protecting Rafaela and Galatea.

Raphaela and Clare aren't related, and thus the soul-link would fail.
Raphaela is possible Irene's killer.
The Ghosts are already around Galatea's power level, if not higher, so the 7 of them are way stronger then Raphaela/Galatea.
But they can use all the allies they can get, considering their enemies.

Victory in three seconds and all of us (and Helen's apple) still in shock and awe!

If only it were that easy. :heh:

hell88

2008-05-03, 16:47

That would means Yoki suppression makes stronger claymores. With training that is.
Suppression with training..........hmmmm.:eyebrow:

Hell@ Care to alaborate on this, as you must know that this is something that we had talked about earlier.:heh:

Yoki supression will make a claymore feel closer to there human self than the yoma self, no yoki supression will make a claymore feel half human half yoma or make them feel closer to there yoma self sort of like awakening.

irvinethearcher

2008-05-03, 16:56

Also, using Yoki brings you closer to awakening, and after 7 years they probably would have awakened from those small Yoki-bursts, even if the Fab 4 are exceptions to this rule due to their unique state, the other 3 aren't.

Sure about this? The 3 not half awakened would probably awaken but what is with our 4 half-awakened protagonists? Especially clare used that much yoki you could probably awaken 3 single digits with it. IMO it works otherwise:
If a claymore crosses her limits she discharges all her yoki and she starts afresh if she half-awakens. Perhaps it is even possible to abolish used yoki if the claymore do not use yoki for a while. There is probably a psychic component to the issue of awakening. And if you think that there are 7 claymores who could help themself against the awakening and use yoki alignment, even the weak not half-awakened could train with yoki because clare makes a yoki alignment, or teaches miria, helen, deneve, tabitha usw. how to do it. It is probably a lie of the org that awakening is inevitable if you use to much yoki.
There's another good argument that th glorious seven could get away with a bit yoki release during training:
The east had low priority for the org.

Sleepy Speculator

2008-05-03, 17:23

@ancient... welcome as always the more here the merrier.

That was quite an interesting first post...
I'll try and list some of the common theories regarding certain characters though...

Rapheala... presumed KIA (Audrey told the ghosts), either living in a hut with Irene or chopped to bits and a prisoner of Riful

Galatea... does not suffer any hindrance from being blind, is split 50/50 whether she joins the ghosts or not.

Riful... really unhappy with Clare, no help there, likely to hunt down Clare for vengeance if she ever finds her

Priscilla/Isley... Clare and Miria were aware of Isley and would take his head for the chance of vengeance regarding Pieta, and Clare is also very much after Priscilla's head.

Rubul... sadist,spy,diligent mib,machiavellean mastermind despise him or loathe him no two people have a similar theory (though chiba sometimes agrees with me) with regards to Rubul. My current theory is he is not in league with the DOD but remains the only male claymore in the org (sunglasses to hide silver eyes).

Miata... disturbed child prodigy rather too carelessly left in the hands of Clarice (gotta be a reason for that)

Clarice... v.weak filler material claymore is the most common theory, mine is she's the strongest contender for Clare's potential soul link partner

Miria... trained for 7 years so she can fight the mib's, whether she goes beserk later is yet to be seen, but she's certainly patient enough now...

Yuma... really the strongest of the G7 and has the YUMA PUNCH!!!

And because i made the mistake regarding the statement that claymore land is an island i provide proof that it can be made by even smart people...

[from the simpsons]
Future Lisa (While Running from Monsters): “He said it was just a name”

Guy: “What he meant was Monster Island is actually a Peninsula”

irvinethearcher

2008-05-03, 17:59

Rubul... sadist,spy,diligent mib,machiavellean mastermind despise him or loathe him no two people have a similar theory (though chiba sometimes agrees with me) with regards to Rubul. My current theory is he is not in league with the DOD but remains the only male claymore in the org (sunglasses to hide silver eyes).

That's a cool speculation, we should consider that rubel could be a male claymore.
But in a way, i like him and i'm sure he follows his own objectives and has perhaps a hidden agenda.

chibamonster

2008-05-03, 19:02

I do not think the ghosts are using any youki at the moment which is why healing Galatea sounds strange to me. A quick draw youki suppression ability would mean they did not have to develop their new special techniques that they have spent the last 7 years honing. Unless they have a lot of pills left over I think releasing their youki is a very very bad idea. As it stands now Miata can find them, but if they are on pills Galatea could find them with her superb youki sensing and who knows what Lune can do.

Raphaela and Clare aren't related, and thus the soul-link would fail.
Raphaela is possible Irene's killer.
The Ghosts are already around Galatea's power level, if not higher, so the 7 of them are way stronger then Raphaela/Galatea.
But they can use all the allies they can get, considering their enemies.

Fenrir! We have to put some qualifiers on some of your comments to the new guys :D. Saying that Clare and Raphaela would flat out fail in a soul link is quite harsh considering Clare is partially awakened already. Jean was not related to Clare either and she managed to pull her back from over her limit and Jean did not seem particularly gifted at youki reading or manipulating. Clare was also able to do it to Jean on her first try. While it may not technically be a soul link the result of pulling someone back from over their limit is very simmilar. Can you imagine what someone trained to actually do a soul link could do in a simmilar situation? I think there is quite a bit of room for improvisation there that could easily overcome blood relation issues. Jean and Clare were guessing from something Clare saw Galatea do so I think it is much to early to jump to the conclusion that a Raphaela/Partially awakened soul link would fail because unlike either of the sister pairs Clare can go over her limit without blinking by herself. Raphaela being trained to soul link will pop up again.

Also Raphaela being equal to a number one really says something. Remember the power gap between #1's or candidates for number 1 and even other single digits? (Riful vs a ton of male AB's, Alicia vs 11 above average AB's, Teresa vs. 2-5, etc, Isley vs. Priscilla compared to Rigardo vs Priscilla) Most of the examples we have seen involve super monsters (Teresa, Priscilla) or awakened #1's, but since Alicia can awaken I think it the power gaps we have seen before hold true for future battles. Miria told Clare that with her ability she would not be out done by even high ranking single digits (which is what Clare could do before Pieta thanks to Irene's arm so no change there) but I still think that is a far cry from not being outdone by a #1 class Claymore/AB. Miria's face at sensing Riful said quite a bit. And Raphaela has been trained to soul link and has her youki cloaked (I presume because she has not been found) which seems to be necessary for the soul link. Fighting against Raphaela the ghosts would be fighting blind as well meaning they lose a lot of their advantage. The ghosts or Raphaela vs. Galatea would just be pathetic because she is blind to them even with her super reading hax (unless she can learn to see them). If anyone could do well against Raphaela I would guess it would be Miata. I hope she ends up on the good side because Raphaela would be a very very dangerous opponent.

I think it is a little early to say The Ghosts are around Galatea's power unless you are referring to Clare. Clare was somewhere around Galatea's power pre-Pieta thanks to Irene's arm and her partial awakening but was by no means more stable than the bombshell claymore beauty queen. Really Galatea's leadership and Clare's tenacity is what pulled them all through a situation they should not have survived. Also that was before Galatea's new youki reading hax which also seems to be quite an upgrade. Galatea and Clare both saved each others lives several times. I do not think we have much to compare Galatea too for the rest of the ghosts. Miria, who knew she had gotten stronger because of her partial awakening, still recognized a power gap between her and the top 5 and Galatea was only second to the twins. Considering how well Galatea did against Miata and Agatha at the same time (even with Agatha playing) I am rather impressed by her. Also she is a much friendlier person than Clare is :D.

yezhanquan

2008-05-03, 19:05

Galatea... I wonder where she stands on the whole thing about having another world beyond the sea. I think she's actually not as surprised as the others. She has dug around during her days.

She came to Rabona for a reason. Once that is taken care of, she just wants to retire to a place where she can continue to babysit orphans (My take: fat chance). Maybe, she may regenerate her eyes for one last adventure. I'm under the impression that she's unwilling to regenerate, not that she cannot.

wnmnkh

2008-05-03, 19:28

I don't know it is mentioned or not, but the raw is out now..

Fenrir_valindri

2008-05-03, 22:02

Sure about this? The 3 not half awakened would probably awaken but what is with our 4 half-awakened protagonists? Especially clare used that much yoki you could probably awaken 3 single digits with it. IMO it works otherwise:

That is what I said in my post. :eyebrow: That even if the partially-awakened were immune to this rule, the other 3 wouldn't be.

If a claymore crosses her limits she discharges all her yoki and she starts afresh if she half-awakens. Perhaps it is even possible to abolish used yoki if the claymore do not use yoki for a while. There is probably a psychic component to the issue of awakening. And if you think that there are 7 claymores who could help themself against the awakening and use yoki alignment, even the weak not half-awakened could train with yoki because clare makes a yoki alignment, or teaches miria, helen, deneve, tabitha usw. how to do it. It is probably a lie of the org that awakening is inevitable if you use to much yoki.
There's another good argument that th glorious seven could get away with a bit yoki release during training:
The east had low priority for the org.

But we have no way of knowing if that is true, it could be the complete opposite, and the partially-awakened Claymores could be the closest to awakening, Clare just gets a by because she is 1/4th Yoma, and thus can take more risks when it comes to using her Yoki. (Even if it is stupid)

Clare's talent in the Yoki alignment area sucks, she says it herself, so I doubt they would risk their lives on that talent, especially when other Yoki-manipulators aren't exactly known for stealth either. (As in; they wouldn't know if it could work or not)

If Yoki supression was so easy, then the Black Card incidents would never have happened.

Incidently, we KNOW that using yoki too much (not going over your limit) leads to awakening. The tragedies of Elena and Hilda prove that, as well as the whole Black-Card system.

-------------------------

I do not think the ghosts are using any youki at the moment which is why healing Galatea sounds strange to me. A quick draw youki suppression ability would mean they did not have to develop their new special techniques that they have spent the last 7 years honing. Unless they have a lot of pills left over I think releasing their youki is a very very bad idea. As it stands now Miata can find them, but if they are on pills Galatea could find them with her superb youki sensing and who knows what Lune can do.

My point exactly, it just doesn't mesh. Miria seems to think they are ready to fight the Organization however, so I doubt they will be holding back their Yoki much longer, hence the reason Cynthia is helping Galatea, and why they are willing to take on more members who aren't suppressed. Also, Galatea can't follow them when she can't even "see" them, so using their Yoki is a must if Galatea is joining up.

Fenrir! We have to put some qualifiers on some of your comments to the new guys :D. Saying that Clare and Raphaela would flat out fail in a soul link is quite harsh considering Clare is partially awakened already. Jean was not related to Clare either and she managed to pull her back from over her limit and Jean did not seem particularly gifted at youki reading or manipulating. Clare was also able to do it to Jean on her first try. While it may not technically be a soul link the result of pulling someone back from over their limit is very simmilar. Can you imagine what someone trained to actually do a soul link could do in a simmilar situation? I think there is quite a bit of room for improvisation there that could easily overcome blood relation issues. Jean and Clare were guessing from something Clare saw Galatea do so I think it is much to early to jump to the conclusion that a Raphaela/Partially awakened soul link would fail because unlike either of the sister pairs Clare can go over her limit without blinking by herself. Raphaela being trained to soul link will pop up again.

Key problems:

There is no evidence that soul-link will work with anyone other then siblings, and technically ONLY twins have ever been succesful.

Clare was barly able to bring Jean back, and that was because of Jean's iron-will more then any "talent" with Yoki-manipulation on Clare's part.

Jean was able to pull Clare back because Clare aligned her Yoki with Jean's, and Jean pulled her back through Clare's manipulation, Jean also died in the process.

Both times, they had to be point blank-hugging each other, just to have a chance of it working, this is by no means a stable, or reliable process.

There is a huge difference between pulling someone back after they go over their limits, and actually controlling someone's Yoki (perfectly) while they fully awaken and are fighting a enemy.

If Clare and someone else (even Raphaela) where able to pull this off, I will cry foul.

Reasons:
Raphaela and Lucalea failed for no real reason, despite their advantage of being siblings, being a partially-awakened breaks all bearers and destroys any handi-cap you would have to getting the best of both worlds. (Not what the Manga implies)

It would also make the twins training a joke, hand-picked at infancy, trained all their lives for this exact purpose, and someone who went over their limit once or twice could do exactly what they can, without all the hard-training and heredity requirement.

I personally think Raphaela will play a key role in dealing with the twins though.

Also Raphaela being equal to a number one really says something. Remember the power gap between #1's or candidates for number 1 and even other single digits? (Riful vs a ton of male AB's, Alicia vs 11 above average AB's, Teresa vs. 2-5, etc, Isley vs. Priscilla compared to Rigardo vs Priscilla) Most of the examples we have seen involve super monsters (Teresa, Priscilla) or awakened #1's, but since Alicia can awaken I think it the power gaps we have seen before hold true for future battles.

The power difference of an awakened and non-awakened #1 is huge.

Isley, Dauf, and Rigaldo used to be close enough in strength to compete for the #1 spot back when they were warriors, which means the difference only came about when Isley awakened, not when he was still a normal warrior.

Alicia is also a weapon that is supposed to be an Anti-Abyssal One weapon, so it isn't a suprise that she can kill those 11 Awakened Beings with ease.

Take note that the 7 Ghosts pwned an awakened #2 quite easily, so they would have a shot at an Abyssal One, but it would be extremely dangerous.

Miria told Clare that with her ability she would not be out done by even high ranking single digits (which is what Clare could do before Pieta thanks to Irene's arm so no change there) but I still think that is a far cry from not being outdone by a #1 class Claymore/AB. Miria's face at sensing Riful said quite a bit.

Miria said they could hold their own against single-digits, but not the top 5 back when the fab 4 first formed.

Clare was only as strong as #8 Flora during the War in the North, even with Irene's Flash-sword, so she could hold her own against low-ranking single digits, but not people like Galatea.

After 7 years of training, Miria (who proved to be Clare's equal) concluded that Clare could hold her own against top-ranking single-digits. (1-5)

Miria was refering to normal single-digits as well, not Awakened Beings, hence her reaction to Riful.

As I said before, an Awakened #1's power is going to be very different from a normal #1's power. (Alicia is a special case)

And Raphaela has been trained to soul link and has her youki cloaked (I presume because she has not been found) which seems to be necessary for the soul link. Fighting against Raphaela the ghosts would be fighting blind as well meaning they lose a lot of their advantage. The ghosts or Raphaela vs. Galatea would just be pathetic because she is blind to them even with her super reading hax (unless she can learn to see them). If anyone could do well against Raphaela I would guess it would be Miata. I hope she ends up on the good side because Raphaela would be a very very dangerous opponent.

Raphaela would be by no means easy to beat, but I don't think she would be able to take all 7 of the Ghosts at once.

1 on 1 she is certainly dangerous, as she trumps them all in experience and being a former #2 (equal to her sister), but I don't think she would overwhelm Miria or Clare, she might even lose.

Galatea is handicapped against people like Raphaela and the Ghosts, but she is extremely powerful against almost anyone else.

The Ghosts would certainly prefer to have Raphaela on their side though.

I think it is a little early to say The Ghosts are around Galatea's power unless you are referring to Clare.

Clare and Miria are probably as strong, if not stronger then Galatea, Helen and Deneve would be close to Galatea's level, and I bet the other 3 as strong as a low-ranking single digit.

Clare was somewhere around Galatea's power pre-Pieta thanks to Irene's arm and her partial awakening but was by no means more stable than the bombshell claymore beauty queen.

That wasn't the impression I got, unless we are talking about Clare going over her limit. Galatea seemed clearly superior in her fight against Dauf when compared to Clare. Clare got owned within seconds, while Galatea held Dauf off for a significant amount of time, and injured him quite badly. Clare was amazed at Galatea's power.

Really Galatea's leadership and Clare's tenacity is what pulled them all through a situation they should not have survived.

and Jean's Tornado Sword, but yes, Clare's tenacity, not power, is what won them that fight, and the time Galatea bought with her power. (Go team-work!)

Also that was before Galatea's new youki reading hax which also seems to be quite an upgrade. Galatea and Clare both saved each others lives several times.

Yes, Galatea's new abilities make her quite tough for anyone not completely stealthed.
Clare only directly saved Galatea once, by going over her limit. Galatea saved her twice (once from Dauf, one from herself) and even held Dauf off 1 on 1 while infliciting damage when Clare went to find Jean.

I do not think we have much to compare Galatea too for the rest of the ghosts. Miria, who knew she had gotten stronger because of her partial awakening, still recognized a power gap between her and the top 5 and Galatea was only second to the twins.

That was before 7 years of training kicked in, she now apparently thinks that the 7of them + whoever joins in can take the Organization down. That indicates that things aren't the same now.

Considering how well Galatea did against Miata and Agatha at the same time (even with Agatha playing) I am rather impressed by her. Also she is a much friendlier person than Clare is :D.

Considering Galatea's forte is defense, I wasn't too suprised by how well she did, it was still impressive, but not anything more then I expected of her.

But she is definetly easier to get along with then Clare. :heh:

chibamonster

2008-05-03, 23:34

Hehe, Usually I avoid poking Fenrir with a stick because he summons posts to crush those who disagree with him but I think this time I have to do it.

About partial awakenings and soul links; I do not think a complete soul link would be necessary for Clare to get to her to her full awakened form and back again. I don't really care if it is actually a soul link or not, I just want her to come back. That being said I think she could 'soul link' (maybe the word is bothering you, so I will call it 'clare link' instead to avoid confusion) with just about anyone trained as she has already done it with Jean the very untrained but well meaning. Whether Clare needs to have her youki controlled perfectly like a marrionette (or if that is even how Raphaela and Luciella did the soul link which we also do not know) or just some help to maintain her human heart does not matter to me.

Clare has been most of the way to her awakened form before with no outside help and she retained her form just fine until her target was destroyed. Then with Jean's clumsy help and mostly by her own work Clare was able to get back from the limb awakening. The rules of limits do not apply to Clare. She bends tons of rules. Why would the holy rule of sibling linking be any different? If Jean who was horribly injured and who showed no evidence of being skilled at youki manipulation or reading can help Clare back then I think Raphaela or even Galatea would be much much more proficient at the 'Clare Link'. It was not Raphaela's technique that is bad but her heart. That is where my concern would be for whoever Raphaela helped link in the future. My real worry for her linking is not if she will have the chance or the ability but whether or not she will be willing to or mentally able to do it with the anguish of failing Luciella stabbing her from her past.

At some point we have to see Clare's awakened form. That is just how it is :D. I know some people are convinced that in the end Clare will have inherited Teresa's God like youki-less abilities but she really does not seem to be headed that way. We have only actually seen the soul link once with the twins who are by no means normal people. Raphaela seems much more normal and has the ability to do it. We will see the soul link again, and since Yagi really has such a tightly developed world the soul link will develop as time goes on just like the youki pills that just grew and grew in importance and are still full of surprises (like the end result of surviving Pieta or forced down Audrey's throat). If the soul link is stuck where it is with the few lines Rubel mentioned being all encompassing and absolute then the concept of the soul link cannot continue to develop in the story like other plot points that have been introduced into this fabulous fictional world (cloaked youki, pills, offensive/defensive, youki sensing, awakenings, black cards, and even the swords have been explained and developed several times in different situations). I think there is much to be shown about soul linking in the future. It is a tool that will develop, have different uses, different applications and many occasions to dazzle us in the future so why not with the protagonist?

The only character we know who is a normal #1 level who has not awakened (or is not seriously messed up) is Raphaela. Teresa (for power may as well have been awakened), Priscilla, Isley, Rosemary, Luciella, Riful and Alicia + Beth (rule breakers!)). Miata has the potential maybe even to surpass Alicia but at #4 something is seriously wrong with her. With that being the case it is nearly impossible to think what a 'normal' #1's level is until either Miata gets her head on straight, Beth or Alicia get caught alone (could be cool :D) or Raphaela shows up. That is why I used the little information of what we do have; the awakened comparison of #1's to other numbers. The power ranking may not be exactly the same after they get their awakened form, but it seems pretty consistent that every generation has its heroes on a level of their own at the top. Even abyssals across generations seem to be pretty close to each other as seen with Isley and Luciella's battle.

For Raphaela's strength compared to the ghosts we also have no way to tell. Against her they do not have as much advantage as they do against others. Since they cannot sense her they would be forced to rely on their eye sight just like their enemies. Of course, so would Raphaela and she has no depth perception. Since we have NEVER seen Raphaela even swing her sword we just do not know. She must be good at youki sensing and manipulating to do soul linking but my guess is that like every other claymore in the series she has a special ability she uses when she fights. Rubel told Clare and Jean that together they stood no chance against her and Irene was somehow able to detect Raphaela's strength while she was completely cloaked. Raphaela is one character I really want to see more of.

As Irene was organizing her team to attack Teresa she mentions that no matter how many people she took with her she would not want to go against Teresa. Seeing Priscilla is what changed her mind. This is when Irene thought Teresa was only as strong as Teresa let on to the organization. While we do not know how Teresa's "imagined #1 strength" compared to a 'normal #1's' it seems there was still a definitive gap between her and the numbers below her. Enough gap to not raise too many suspicions from the MiB's and yet still enough of a difference to make Irene only think the mission was possible because she had someone on her team who would have been stronger than Teresa (imagined strength) in the very near future. While there is not much information there, I think it does show quite a gap even for a 'normal #1' as the organization was not calling foul on Teresa's lie.

For the comparison of Galatea and Clare I was including Clare's limit breaking ability which was really a headache for Galatea to deal with. I think they are a great team when they worked together with very different personalities and strengths. I do not think we have any way to tell if Miria or Clare is stronger than Galatea mostly because there are so many facets to what "strength" is. Maybe we should ask who would win in any given situation, like an arm wrestle, mud wrestling, a foot race, a game of chess, or beach volley ball. I think Miria and Clare could beat Galatea in a fight right now because Galatea could not see them so in that respect they are "stronger". Hopefully they will never fight each other and we will never have to find out. Miata did say that Miria and Clare were far stronger than the other ghosts (or at leas that 2 of them were stronger, wonder who they are?) but remember that when Miata was sniffing out Galatea she also labeled her as having the scent of a very strong Claymore from outside Rabona.

Ryuken

2008-05-03, 23:48

Yoki supression will make a claymore feel closer to there human self than the yoma self, no yoki supression will make a claymore feel half human half yoma or make them feel closer to there yoma self sort of like awakening.

That's good.:)

And a very warm welcome to you Ancient.

Sci-Fi

2008-05-04, 00:50

Galatea did 'witness' Alicia and Beth's soul link firsthand, so it is possible that she has a good idea how it works. Now whether or not it's practical for the Ghosts to use/train for or use this technique is unknown. The alignment and control, as well as mental ability/concentration, would seem to have to be perfect. May need 2 people, say Galatea and Raphaela, to share the burden.

LeftX

2008-05-04, 01:15

I still don't get it. So why is Cynthia the one helping Galatea heal? Isn't Deneve suppose to be the healing god?

And why is Tabitha their eye? Didn't Clare show gifted distance Yoki sensing in the slasher's arc?

Valerian Mengsk

2008-05-04, 02:09

1) Cynthia apparently specializes in youki manipulation, so she can act as a "battery" for Galatea if needed. Deneve on the other hand has never shown an aptitude for soul-linking/ youki-manipulation, etc, all she can do is offer friendly advice.

2) Clare has been focusing on her windcutter ability for 7 years, so accordingly other skills do not get developed.

3) C'mon Cynthia and Tabitha need to stand out somehow, now we just have to wait and see what Yuma has up her sleeve.......other than the all-conquering Yuma Punch

creb

2008-05-04, 03:10

Just a few ramblings. First off, I know it is just a work of fiction and I'm not zealous enough to demand everything make sense. These are just thoughts I've had as I've read the series.

What exactly is so bad about being an AB? The claymores act like they will loose their humanity and become monsters, the Org had to do the twin trick because of the "AB are irrational killing machines" dogma, but Riful, Dolph, Isley, etc...all sure seem to retain their human sides even if they also picked up a callously brutal "monster" side to go with it. None of them showed anything like those uncontrollable urges to kill that the claymores greatly insinuate occur if you loose your humanity and become an AB. Or, are all those ABs the exceptions and were just powerful in strength of will enough to keep their human consciousness?

In fact, if I was a claymore who had witnessed how human Riful could be, awakening would be a temptation I would have a very difficult time resisting.

I have a strong suspicion that by the time the manga is over, AB are not going to be viewed as all that evil, especially since this entire manga seems to blur that definition. The anime ending was horrible, but I certainly wouldn't be surprised if there is some reconciliation at some point between claymore/ABs etc. Raki being with Isley/Pri certainly pushes that point when combined with how human Isley could show himself to be.

And how is an awakened being so powerful when it comes from a piece of a yoma laying inside a human being? What is it about the human being that is able to amplify that yoma power so much that a yoma can't just "awaken" without a human component as a catalyst/incubator/whatever.

Considering some 100 years or so of yoma slaughtering has been going on and there are still yoma running around killing humans insinuates strongly that the Organization continues to make and spread yoma around the lands.

Have we ever seen a female yoma (not AB)? Is the lack of female yoma on purpose to control reproduction (assuming reproduction is even possible for yoma). Going further on that thought, could an AB become pregnant?

As for yoma being dumb, I think we are projecting on them dumbness just because they are the weaklings in this universe. The one who pretended to be Raki's brother in the very beginning certainly didn't seem to be any stupider than any other human being.

I still want to know what is supposed to be so horrifying about a Claymore's abdomen. A yoma's face? (Though that wouldn't work for Claire I guess...it must be something Yoma related).

Why guts? Is the Org really out to kill humanity and the craving for human guts was simply a fool-proof method of ensuring their soldiers would do their task one way or another? The MiB certainly aren't pure humans. I used to think they were some form of Yoma with deeply depressed auras. Now with all this "Dragon" talk I'm not sure where to begin in pegging what the MiB actually are.

Some insight from normal humans would be nice. With all the yoma going around killing humans, it almost should be that the Org would have to bring in new colonies from the "mainland" at a steady rate to keep the human test population at an acceptable rate. Also, Rafaela insinuated that the Org sort of had carte blanche to take girls from homes which would require a pretty strict rule over the humans in this land by the Org which definitely goes into the whole this land being just a test-bed (perhaps new towns-colonies are lured by false promises to the area...but are financially backed by the Org...sort of a pseudo serfdom ala colonial america).

About the male awakened beings, I don't think that period lasted long at all. Wasn't Dolph #3 behind Isley and Rigaldo, and when Dolph had that short reunion with Isley's awakened followers, their conversation strongly insinuated they were all claymores together, which in turn strongly insinuates that most, if not all, of the male claymores awakened together (perhaps on purpose in order to rebel/gain freedom?), which would also imply a disaster that big probably wouldn't have repeated (hence going with girls), which implies the male generation was like a class long.

There seem to be an awful lot of ABs randomly walking the world which makes you wonder how dismal of a failure is the black card system (Clarice/Miata story implied they ran into many on their hunt for Galatea).

Teresa's comments to the villagers oh so many chapters ago certainly make you wonder how much she really knew about the true state of things. And certainly would add yet another dimension towards her (until Claire) disdain towards humans and "smile". If, ultimately, the Org wishes to eradicate humanity, and I was a Claymore with that knowledge, I'd certainly find it amusing "protecting" humans as my day job.

I don't see Galatea joining them for any length of time. She is very much a loner and her conversation (very short though it was) in Ch. 78 with Miria strongly insinuated that Galatea would not fit in with them.

I can't see what plot-reasons there are for Clarice/Miata unless they are going to spread the truth in some way to convince many other Claymores to rebel against the Org. They just don't fit in with Miria and crew. Considering Clarice is super-weak and Miata is a feral child, they don't have much going for them if they were to attempt to convince others, but that kind of plot/character development is the only reason why I thought that might be the direction they go. Or even crazier, maybe Clarice will eventually be the one who manages to "awaken" the humans in this test-bed of the truth behind their world, and her having human-hair would actually serve a real plot purpose beyond implying the Org was weakened a lot.

If Claire used the flash-sword in Ch. 78, then isn't she no longer undetectable by yoma-seekers? Could be a nice plot-contrivance for Rubel (or however his name is spelled) to somehow come into contact with Miria and crew. He's certainly been built up to possibly have his own agenda which might not strictly follow the Org's.

Anyone know how many episodes the Manga is supposed to go? Ch. 79 revelations have just made it a huge world with a ton of potential story in my opinion, which is good because the whole revenge thing wasn't going to be able to sustain it much longer and never seemed to be the real story anyways.

Can't wait for 80.

Cyclone

2008-05-04, 03:36

I'm reading the japanese raw now... this is going to take some time... ah well
So far though, the translation derelict posted (thank you!) seems generally pretty accurate.

About Galatea's eyes.
Cynthia says that Galatea has many wound but nothing life threating and since the arm is freshly cut, that regeneration should be possible.
Galatea comments: "oh? using youki alignment to help heal and regenerate, huh?" and continues on to say that since she's a defensive type that she can do it herself. Cynthia responds that it'll be quicker for 2 people than for just one and says she'll lend a hand.

I'm still reading (on about p14 - it's slow work, and for these pages I'll try to take my time to make sure I don't make a mistake), so I'll let you know any other fine points when I get to them.

If galatea doesn't get at least some vision back though, it looks like she just may have to stay in Rabona, since as Fenir mentioned, she can't follow the ghosts if she can't see them. Even if she's away from the action, as long as she's never found Alicia/Beth or Riful, I'll be happy I guess.

On an unrelated note...
I realized something though last night. With Pricilla removed as the main goal of the ghosts, it not only opens the way to forgiving Pricilla, it opens the way for Pricilla to try to earn her forgiveness. Pricilla has no grudge against Clare, afterall.

Raki can come to Clare's rescue atop an awakened Pricilla (if he's STILL hanging around Isley and Pricilla all this time without figuring out their true nature, then he's a retard), and turn the tide of just about any battle. It'd be a nice way to avoid the necessity of powering up Clare to Pricilla's level anyways.

Forgiveness was obviously not possible with Pricilla being the final boss, but now, with her taking an active role against "the big evil" it may be possible for her to earn her forgiveness in Clare's eyes. (I'd still prefer her dead, but I guess I could live with this arrangement)

Sci-Fi

2008-05-04, 03:52

creb^

Believe Clare killed a female looking yoma in the forest when Raki was trying to find her (chapter 3 - Witch's Memory). If it was a female yoma, then they appear to be rare in the Claymore universe since that was the only time we saw one in the manga.

Galatea has extensive experience and it's been hinted that she's been around for a long time. While her 'duties' may be the 'eye' of the Org, she was strong enough to become #3. The Ghosts need as many members as possible. It's conceivable to create separate squads as the group grows and Galatea could be the leader of one. It's a matter of assembling a cohesive team. Besides, I don't think the Ghosts want Galatea to fall into Riful's hands or be killed by the Org.

Miata's abilities are unique, so you have to take Clarice if you want Miata. The Org has hinted that Miata 'could' be #1 material. She can detect/anticipate movements of other beings (human, yoma, and claymore...possibly the MIB's too), so no one could sneak up on them.

As far as the manga, it's supposely halfway through the story...so there's plenty of years left, since it's a monthly release.

Cyclone

2008-05-04, 03:54

Oh - on a fun note, found a few little things Yagi maybe was not careful enough with.

page 5 - Cynthia is standing beside Galatea.
page 6 - Cynthia is gone and it's Galatea alone facing Miata/Clarice

More fun though is page 10:
Cynthia's assistance to Galatea forcibly reminds me of Gilderoy Lockhart's help from Harry Potter. Where is Galatea's OTHER arm!?!? Looks like the Clare chimera project may be a go afterall :p

yezhanquan

2008-05-04, 04:31

Cyclone, if you can read Mandarin, then hightlight the mistranslations, if any.

Ancient Soul

2008-05-04, 04:57

Yes, sorry, my mistake.Chapter 79.Last month no Claymore...so i wanted too much for a double chapter this month (thus +1)...

About The WORLD.WE dind't know that Claymore World was an experiment...until now...
The other side is The DODs World.

About Galatea vs Cynthia as Ghosts Yoki manipulator
Both are limited.Right now we know that Galatea can use this in a fight (attack/defense).
Cynthia in a non-battle situation for regeneration.She is now The Healer in Ghosts group not the manipulator.

About Galatea vs Tabitha as Ghosts Yoki sensor.
Maybe the same range.Galate better concentration (she can use her skill while fighting) and accuracy (she can see claymores under pills - We don't know if Tabitha can).Tabitha have to stand still with eyes closed and she can't attack during this time.

About Rafaela & Galatea : i just want to find some use of the skills they have:
Rafaela : Yoki suppression ; Soul link(trained)
Galatea : Acute Yoki sensing ; Yoki manipulation (limited); Yoki suppression (not anymore).
Soul link (know about him).

Soul link seem very importand (at least for The ORG).The Secret weapon Alicia&Beth work with soul link.

If they can't help Clare jump to the next level, who can?

More training (after 7 years Clare his faster and stronger but he run with Miria and the rest of the team from Riful (who is afraid of Isley+Priscilla and don't know if she can defeat Alicia)?If they don't have a chance against Riful how they will be able to defeat Alicia?
Miria ?
Rubel?

Miria defeating The ORG without Clare awakening?Only if she assassinate Alicia&Beth in sleep.Don't sound like Claymore anymore.

I really thing that MiBs , claymores , youma and AB/AO have a strong sense of smell.They find the claymores very quick.Clare smelled the stench of youma on Raki back then.The youma (Raki's brother) and the AB who fight Ophelia wanted Raky very badly for some reason.I dind's see anything in Claymore except horses.No dogs and cats (or something similar in Claymore world).Maybe they were exterminated by The ORG in order to allow youma infiltrations.

For my R&G are veteran warriors who can help with their experience but they now lack the will to fight.
Rafaela killed her sister and walk away.
Galatea lived in a city and was happy.

About The CONJUNCTION.If Miata has the blood&flesh of Luciela she become first candidate for a soul link with Rafaela (replacing Clare if soul link can't be done between two claymores with different yoki singnatures).
Soul link is about perfect yoki synchronisation/suppression and the strong desire of the recipient to hold the soul of the other one.Rafaela failed maybe because she was afraid that she will lose his own mind when soul-linked with full awakened Luciela and by mistake used yoki (out of fear).

About Rafaela vs Ghost fight.I think Rafaela know how to use a Claymore Sword better than everyone else.Why?She was an assassin.He must have the skill to defeat traitors.Irene said that with two hands may have a chance against Rafaela.So Rafalea must know at least some moves to counter the Quicksword and even Windcutter.Maybe she will teach Clare a
new move as a "+" on top of soul-linking with her.

cloak_and_dagger

2008-05-04, 04:59

I am soo not surprised at the outcome of this chap..all the questions and theories expressed in this chapter i pondered on myself and that's when i was watching the anime..

Cyclone

2008-05-04, 05:00

Cyclone, if you can read Mandarin, then hightlight the mistranslations, if any.

I can't read a word of mandarin.
I'm reading the Japanese. My Japanese is not great though, so it's tough work and takes me a long time. I'm still not done.

About the mountain village, Miria says:
"My suspicions started in a land to the southwest most extremely cut off from the organization..."
"from words from villagers of a small forgotten-like village in a mountian recess"

Keep you posted with more as I decipher all this.
(it is "Decendants of Dragons" though, for the record [though it uses an antiquated kanji for dragon though])

Sleepy Speculator

2008-05-04, 05:43

Since chiba just poked fenrir with a stick and i'm already doing that elsewhere i'll refrain from saying anything that conversation entails...

But with regards to Clare's power now... She spars at Miria's level of speed which includes the mirage... And can surpass Miria with the windcutter. This without yoki or being able to read her opponents yoki. We don't know how fast the quicksword will now be or how much she'll be able to read of her opponents but i suspect the number of claymores who can challenge Clare that are in the org consists of only Audrey, Alicia and Beth.

If Miata is with the ghosts then the org has just lost another trump card and provided the ghosts with another v.strong claymore

v.strong claymores... Miata,Miria,Clare,Galatea
strong claymores...Helen,Deneve,Cynthia,Tabitha,Yuma (maybe)
v.weak... Clarice

chibamonster

2008-05-04, 06:17

Things are really looking up for our little claymores :D That means something really really bad is about to happen. Like not a little bit bad, really bad. Because this is claymore. There is no way our little ghosts are going to get a happy ending right now. The worst is yet to come (I guess something bad in the next few chapters after some reactions to Miria's words). As the story progresses I think many more main characters are going to die. Probably each in their own unexpected way because deaths in claymore are not drawn out or easily anticipated. I do not think that Teresa's death or Pieta is going to be the most depressing thing in claymore. There might even be a Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann type plot shift where the organization is not as evil as we think. Maybe their tests and awful experiments are actually for a noble purpose.

By the way, with little unstable Miata hearing that the organization made youma how do you think she is going to respond? Remember the difficulty Priscilla had when she had her world view smashed? Miata even obeys the rule to not kill humans so while she may act crazy she does understand. Yagi wrote Miata to be unstable and powerful for a reason. She is a ticking time bomb. The question is not if she will go off but when and on whom.

I am actually glad that Yagi chose to keep Galatea blind. Unlike other shonen manga the characters in Claymore's choices and power ups do not come easily; there is a definite price to pay. Sometimes the price is something the claymores can pay themselves like the ghosts training so hard they cough up blood for seven years or Clare training with Irene. But there are also things that others have to do for them; Irene giving up her arm, Jean giving up her life, Ophelia giving up her twisted dreams as she cheered Clare on, and so on. Galatea's choice to integrate with humans had definite consiquences that changed her life. She was willing to die for the people of Rabona and still is even if they never knew what she really was. Nothing comes easily in Claymore and I think it will only get more difficult.

@Cyclone: I would also be fine with Priscilla earning some sort of redemption. Well, that or at least doing something really cool with all that power she has. We have seen all sorts of AB's with different reactions to their awakening and her hatred of youma might actually be beneficial. Priscilla now does not have much ill intent. She even cried over the claymores that died in Pieta. How awful would it be if Clare had to ask for her help instead of exacting her revenge because something truly evil surfaced? I think there is plenty of complexity for future relationships to explore.

Docile Yoma

2008-05-04, 06:29

Oh - on a fun note, found a few little things Yagi maybe was not careful enough with.

page 5 - Cynthia is standing beside Galatea.
page 6 - Cynthia is gone and it's Galatea alone facing Miata/Clarice

since I read your comment before finding the chinese translated 79 and going through it just now, it would seem that is actually Yuma/Tabitha (the one with single-sided pigtail) behind Miria, and Cynthia (the one with 2 pigtails and kneeling beside Galatea) is still there. Seems trivial but guess Yagi was careful after all haha, though yes it does seem Galatea's right arm is also gone in page ~12

Docile Yoma

2008-05-04, 06:36

I am actually glad that Yagi chose to keep Galatea blind. Unlike other shonen manga the characters in Claymore's choices and power ups do not come easily; there is a definite price to pay. Sometimes the price is something the claymores can pay themselves like the ghosts training so hard they cough up blood for seven years or Clare training with Irene. But there are also things that others have to do for them; Irene giving up her arm, Jean giving up her life, Ophelia giving up her twisted dreams as she cheered Clare on, and so on. Galatea's choice to integrate with humans had definite consiquences that changed her life. She was willing to die for the people of Rabona and still is even if they never knew what she really was. Nothing comes easily in Claymore and I think it will only get more difficult.

Sorry if if I missed an obvious part or something in the past chapters, but I don't get why Galatea didn't just pretend she was blind (keep her eyes closed, make up etc), instead of actually mutilating herself (though I agree with you that it is realistic with Yagi deciding it won't be healed)

chibamonster

2008-05-04, 06:47

The one distinguishing feature that shows that tells humans that someone is a claymore is their silver eyes. In Rabona Cid and Galk checked Clare's eyes to see if she was a claymore or not. The pills fooled them until they saw her silver eyes. The priests also knew she was a claymore when they saw her eyes. If anyone ever saw Galatea's eyes while she was pretending they would know exactly what she was and then she would have to leave. (super fanfiction level speculation) I wonder at what point she did it to herself. We do not know much but I wouldn't be surprised if she started by pretending but valued human relationships so much that she decided to give her vision up completely. (completed)

It still must have been a difficult decision to make for Galatea who apologized to Duff about her hideous appearance when her youki was released. Galatea's ability to battle youma or AB's did not diminish at all and if anything she is now a more formidable opponent but she could not have known that. It seems it also allowed her to live the life of a human for a while. With silver eyes Galatea could not join human society and would always be an outcast.

Serous

2008-05-04, 07:03

I thought pills hid eye colour

Sleepy Speculator

2008-05-04, 07:09

Galatea didn't have any, especially several years worth...

Goofus Maximus

2008-05-04, 08:36

hell88

2008-05-04, 09:21

I have a firm expectation that Riful is going to show up, with blood in her eye over her stolen prey and deceptive promise from Claire. She may have stopped to bring along her Duph as well. Labona is in for a rough time.

Mabye once the ghosts and Galatea, Clarice, and Miata leave Rabona Riful and Dauf will be waiting for them.

irvinethearcher

2008-05-04, 09:24

Yeah, riful will perhaps join the party i wonder if she knows all about the org?

But we have no way of knowing if that is true, it could be the complete opposite, and the partially-awakened Claymores could be the closest to awakening, Clare just gets a by because she is 1/4th Yoma, and thus can take more risks when it comes to using her Yoki. (Even if it is stupid)

Clare's talent in the Yoki alignment area sucks, she says it herself, so I doubt they would risk their lives on that talent, especially when other Yoki-manipulators aren't exactly known for stealth either. (As in; they wouldn't know if it could work or not)

If Yoki supression was so easy, then the Black Card incidents would never have happened.

Incidently, we KNOW that using yoki too much (not going over your limit) leads to awakening. The tragedies of Elena and Hilda prove that, as well as the whole Black-Card system.

Yes, we don't know if i'm right. But there are indications that half-awakening discharges the "yoki - battery" and probably enlarges the loading capacity of this battery.
1. Jean fought with her drill sword several times after beeing a butterfly and brought back by clare. -> strong yoki - usage
2. Clare extensive use of yoki and half-awakenings/partial awakening. But you're right, because she's 3/4 human she could be perhaps more resiliant on it than other claymores despite her aggressive nature.
and if we carefully observe the whole manga there are probably more...

Yes, Elena and Hilda were victims of the yoki - usage. But she didn't had the help of yoki alignment. IMO if clare could go back in time she probably didn't have to kill hilda because one alignment would easily restore her to normal.

Clare was not as good as galatea but she had plenty of time to exercise... and it was good enough to bring jean back from a full awakening. Riful was interested in her too, so she couldn't be so bad at it. And remember: The ghost seems to have exchanged knowledge, because the claymore who tried to heal galatea could do yoki manip. Perhaps she has learned it from clare.

And if you think about the issue that the org would probably awakened beeings arround to measure their strength, the org probably didn't do much to prevent claymores from awakening. After this chapter we have to change our point of view about claymore.

Mangaloid

2008-05-04, 10:13

I think Cid might be over hearing the Miria's theory. He's looking pretty shocked plus the sweat mark. Even though the soldiers on the same page aren't able to hear the claymores Cid isn't wearing a helmet like they are and he was excited at the beginning chapter as opposed to his look on his face after Miria started talking.

hell88

2008-05-04, 10:17

Mangaloid

2008-05-04, 10:20

lol and getting to see his first claymore love clare in it.

Ryuken

2008-05-04, 10:31

lol and getting to see his first claymore love clare in it.

"Damn that woman!"

Ring any bells.:D

khryoleoz

2008-05-04, 10:46

I'm wondering if Miria's intention is better for their world. With all that she suspects and the little that she does actually know about any threats that exist to them beyond their borders for which yoma and ABs are purposely created, do they believe that their society can be better sustained by getting rid of the only people who really does know what's going on and have been in control of the situation? Miria is in over her head about her plan, with uncertain results should they succeed. Or, maybe she doesn't care about the results and just wants vengeance regardless of the consequences. That's a worse position to hold than Clare's IMO. What they need to do first is conduct some reconnaissance of the world outside of their borders and investigate. It would be too late if they remove the org from being the controlling factor only to find out later that the ABs protect them from worse external threats.

Wouldn't it be funny if their world was actually set in our 21st century modern day times, and a la The Village the org simply kept their society contained in a social experiment.

irvinethearcher

2008-05-04, 10:54

Could be, we don't now how progressive the people on the continent are.
So far the claymores didn't do anything against the org and i don't think miria will fight the org without any further investigation.

gnc742

2008-05-04, 10:56

Sleepy so the Japanese raw is released huh?

I'm was quite surprised when Miria told them about the organization's darkest secret. From what
Mira told them, I think that Miata and Clarice will join them cause they think that there's no point in returning to the organization after hearing that the cause of her parent's death is the organization itself. It is possible that Miria's theory about yoma is possible. ES chap. 4, the yoma knew that they are trainees. He even said that they didn't know how to suppress their yoki. Early in the series, A yoma told Clare that he suppressed his yoma as much as he could but Clare was able to detect it. IMO, the yoma were created by the Organization, they were failures because they desired for human innards, they couldn't control themselves and they aren't smart enough to beat the DoD. They were powerful but they couldn't be controlled. So they think of a way to control them. Thus hybrid of human and yoma was the result. You know, like in Naruto, a tailed beast is more powerful if it lives in a host.

I think that it is okay to use minimal yoki, but using around 10%,it would be hard to suppress it again. Irene used the Quick sword and she radiated yoki. But it doesn't use minimal yoki. She said it herself, that Quick sword is the 100 percent use of yoki in one's arm. unlike the Windcutter which doesn't make ones arm berserk. But if a claymore is good enough, she should be able to detect a Claymore or AO like Galatea. Even though Riful's yoki was suppressed, she was able to detect her. I think a cloaked claymore still radiates yoki but it can only be recognized by good claymores or those like Miata

What is Yuma punch btw?
Maybe we shouldn't be underestimating number 5 and 3 much. remember they looked weak because they fought with an abyssal one. IMO the current powerhouse of the org is:
Alicia
Beth
Audrey
Ray
Miata
Lune

nadare

2008-05-04, 11:03

I've just read chapter 79. It answered a lot of questions but raised another set of. question.

- Did the previous Claymores who did not die turned into ABs ? or did they get sent into the battlefield?

- If they didn't get sent to the battlefield. And kept experimenting on these claymores/ABs. what's the purpose? I mean they had a lot of Claymore generations already. Did it really too that long(and still ongoing) to complete their research?

- Instead of remaking the Claymores and put them in the island they should have been sent to battle since. We all know that Organization can control the Claymores now.

Or a theory comes up that the claymores that are on the island being experimented on are kind of "rejects". And Claymores that are more of a finished product are sent to War.

- I'm quite surprised why the claymores themselves follow the organization. I mean the organization are full of men and the claymores should know that they are stronger than them.

- When Miria said that their weapon allows them to turn into monsters. Does that mean by simply holding the claymore you can be turned into a monster? How do claymores get turned into monsters?

- If their swords can take on their enemies. Whats the purpose of making claymores?(If specialized monster blood/parts). I know that these swords must be heavy, but I think thats because of its size. They could probably make a normal sized swords for it.

lastly

- If only women can use the sword and become claymores. Then does that mean soon the battle will only see women fighting and not the men? Thus men staying home and planting rice fields ?

Fenrir_valindri

2008-05-04, 11:17

Hehe, Usually I avoid poking Fenrir with a stick because he summons posts to crush those who disagree with him but I think this time I have to do it.

Well, as long as your prepared. :p

About partial awakenings and soul links; I do not think a complete soul link would be necessary for Clare to get to her to her full awakened form and back again. I don't really care if it is actually a soul link or not, I just want her to come back. That being said I think she could 'soul link' (maybe the word is bothering you, so I will call it 'clare link' instead to avoid confusion) with just about anyone trained as she has already done it with Jean the very untrained but well meaning. Whether Clare needs to have her youki controlled perfectly like a marrionette (or if that is even how Raphaela and Luciella did the soul link which we also do not know) or just some help to maintain her human heart does not matter to me.

It sounds risky, immensely so. I honestly don't want to see it either, it makes the sacrifices related to going over ones limit seem laughable. If Clare were to come up with her own way to fully-awaken, and then be pulled back, then the Organization's soul-link would still look pathetic, as they have spent years researching and experimenting with huge losses. Not to mention Alicia would count as partiall-awakened herself, and thus that really wouldn't be an advantage for Clare in this situation.

Clare has been most of the way to her awakened form before with no outside help and she retained her form just fine until her target was destroyed. Then with Jean's clumsy help and mostly by her own work Clare was able to get back from the limb awakening. The rules of limits do not apply to Clare. She bends tons of rules. Why would the holy rule of sibling linking be any different? If Jean who was horribly injured and who showed no evidence of being skilled at youki manipulation or reading can help Clare back then I think Raphaela or even Galatea would be much much more proficient at the 'Clare Link'. It was not Raphaela's technique that is bad but her heart. That is where my concern would be for whoever Raphaela helped link in the future. My real worry for her linking is not if she will have the chance or the ability but whether or not she will be willing to or mentally able to do it with the anguish of failing Luciella stabbing her from her past.

Clare didn't fully awaken, and the fight didn't exactly last long. So against someone like an Abyssal One, who could just as easily kill her Soul-Link partner (if they lack the sufficient strength to defend themselves from an Awakened #1 while helping Clare), Clare has no real safe way of doing this.
Going over the limit isn't the problem, coming back from a full-awakened form is. Jean was stated to have an iron will, and everyone agreed that only she would be able to come back from such a state.

Clare breaking rules generally makes sense, all of the Fab 4 broke the "limit" rule, guiding the flash-sword makes sense with her abilities, and she technically was well on her way to awakening if Jean didn't die to save her.

Saying Raphaela's heart was weak is just a way of saying that her emotions were getting in the way. Raphaela has one of the highest mental stats in Claymore, only Jean, Irene, and Alicia/Beth have higher; so it is not really a matter of willpower on her part, it was a matter of emotions being a huge problem when Perfect Yoki alignment is involved.

I wouldn't just worry about Raphaela's heart in the theoretical "Clare-link," as Clare herself has already experienced the horror of losing control of your body and killing a close friend, I really don't think she would try it willingly.

At some point we have to see Clare's awakened form. That is just how it is :D. I know some people are convinced that in the end Clare will have inherited Teresa's God like youki-less abilities but she really does not seem to be headed that way. We have only actually seen the soul link once with the twins who are by no means normal people. Raphaela seems much more normal and has the ability to do it. We will see the soul link again, and since Yagi really has such a tightly developed world the soul link will develop as time goes on just like the youki pills that just grew and grew in importance and are still full of surprises (like the end result of surviving Pieta or forced down Audrey's throat). If the soul link is stuck where it is with the few lines Rubel mentioned being all encompassing and absolute then the concept of the soul link cannot continue to develop in the story like other plot points that have been introduced into this fabulous fictional world (cloaked youki, pills, offensive/defensive, youki sensing, awakenings, black cards, and even the swords have been explained and developed several times in different situations). I think there is much to be shown about soul linking in the future. It is a tool that will develop, have different uses, different applications and many occasions to dazzle us in the future so why not with the protagonist?

Not really, we have already seen enough as it is, and if we do see it, it will probably be the "bad end" route. As for inheriting Teresa's god-like Yoki-less skills, she is actually quite well along that path with the 7 years of training she had in Yoki-less training.

The fact we have only seen Soul-Link once implies that it is an extremely difficult thing to pull off, even for the Twins, I would really hate to see that difficulty be cheapened by Clare "breaking" a rule outright.

All of the other things led up to different ways of using already known tools, but ?Soul-link is already the varient of something, Yoki-manipulation, and I really don't think we need to see a varient of a varient.

Soul-link, (and thus fully awakening and turning back) is the Twin's trump card, don't let others steal it like it is easy to do. :eyespin:

The only character we know who is a normal #1 level who has not awakened (or is not seriously messed up) is Raphaela. Teresa (for power may as well have been awakened), Priscilla, Isley, Rosemary, Luciella, Riful and Alicia + Beth (rule breakers!)). Miata has the potential maybe even to surpass Alicia but at #4 something is seriously wrong with her. With that being the case it is nearly impossible to think what a 'normal' #1's level is until either Miata gets her head on straight, Beth or Alicia get caught alone (could be cool :D) or Raphaela shows up. That is why I used the little information of what we do have; the awakened comparison of #1's to other numbers. The power ranking may not be exactly the same after they get their awakened form, but it seems pretty consistent that every generation has its heroes on a level of their own at the top. Even abyssals across generations seem to be pretty close to each other as seen with Isley and Luciella's battle.

True, a "normal" #1 is definetly something we have not seen, but we have only seen 5 #1s as Claymores ever, and only two of those have fought (Teresa/Priscilla) in those forms. Miata definetly has the potential, we have seen that clearly already, but she does need to ripen a bit more.

Abyssals across generations is also had to measure, because their are only 3 of them, and we know that their strength is close in their awakened forms, but not necissarily equal.

For Raphaela's strength compared to the ghosts we also have no way to tell. Against her they do not have as much advantage as they do against others. Since they cannot sense her they would be forced to rely on their eye sight just like their enemies. Of course, so would Raphaela and she has no depth perception. Since we have NEVER seen Raphaela even swing her sword we just do not know. She must be good at youki sensing and manipulating to do soul linking but my guess is that like every other claymore in the series she has a special ability she uses when she fights. Rubel told Clare and Jean that together they stood no chance against her and Irene was somehow able to detect Raphaela's strength while she was completely cloaked. Raphaela is one character I really want to see more of.

We have never seen Raphaela fight, but I don't think she would be so powerful as to make a mockery of Clare and Miria, otherwise I doubt Miria would be so sure about assaulting the Organization at this time.

No real suprise about what Rubel said about Jean + Clare (technically #8-9 strength) couldn't take Raphaela (#1 material), but that was still 7 years ago.

I think that Irene was just eye-balling Raphaela's ability through normal "warrior's perception," she did the same for Priscilla, so not too suprised she could do it with Raphaela.

I really do want to see Raphaela again, in some ways I really would like to see how Clare would react if Raphaela really did kill Irene (which I think she did) but that might screw their chances of an alliance with her. (maybe not?)

As Irene was organizing her team to attack Teresa she mentions that no matter how many people she took with her she would not want to go against Teresa. Seeing Priscilla is what changed her mind. This is when Irene thought Teresa was only as strong as Teresa let on to the organization. While we do not know how Teresa's "imagined #1 strength" compared to a 'normal #1's' it seems there was still a definitive gap between her and the numbers below her. Enough gap to not raise too many suspicions from the MiB's and yet still enough of a difference to make Irene only think the mission was possible because she had someone on her team who would have been stronger than Teresa (imagined strength) in the very near future. While there is not much information there, I think it does show quite a gap even for a 'normal #1' as the organization was not calling foul on Teresa's lie.

Teresa was already admitted as the strongest warrior the Organization had created at this time, so it isn't suprising that Irene though she could take the entire Organization at once. She measured Priscilla's potential (which we know was immense) but underestimated her naivety and lack of experience, which is the reason that the mission ended up failing.

I don't think we can ever use Teresa to measure the "normal" gap for anything. :D

For the comparison of Galatea and Clare I was including Clare's limit breaking ability which was really a headache for Galatea to deal with. I think they are a great team when they worked together with very different personalities and strengths. I do not think we have any way to tell if Miria or Clare is stronger than Galatea mostly because there are so many facets to what "strength" is. Maybe we should ask who would win in any given situation, like an arm wrestle, mud wrestling, a foot race, a game of chess, or beach volley ball. I think Miria and Clare could beat Galatea in a fight right now because Galatea could not see them so in that respect they are "stronger". Hopefully they will never fight each other and we will never have to find out. Miata did say that Miria and Clare were far stronger than the other ghosts (or at leas that 2 of them were stronger, wonder who they are?) but remember that when Miata was sniffing out Galatea she also labeled her as having the scent of a very strong Claymore from outside Rabona.

True, but I was refering to overall ability to fight, I would put Clare and Miria higher then Galatea at this time, probably not by much though.

----------------

Just a few ramblings. First off, I know it is just a work of fiction and I'm not zealous enough to demand everything make sense. These are just thoughts I've had as I've read the series.

Okies

What exactly is so bad about being an AB? The claymores act like they will loose their humanity and become monsters, the Org had to do the twin trick because of the "AB are irrational killing machines" dogma, but Riful, Dolph, Isley, etc...all sure seem to retain their human sides even if they also picked up a callously brutal "monster" side to go with it. None of them showed anything like those uncontrollable urges to kill that the claymores greatly insinuate occur if you loose your humanity and become an AB. Or, are all those ABs the exceptions and were just powerful in strength of will enough to keep their human consciousness?

You eat people for one, which isn't going to fly well for most people, especially when it associates them with Yoma, who probably were responsible for killing most Claymore's famlies. Priscilla + Ophelia's playmate, and Ophelia herself showed immense desires to kill as well. Ophelia's playmate had already wiped out an entire town, Priscilla was responsible for several, and Ophelia couldn't even hold herself back from trying to eat Clare, even after she knew she tasted bad.

In fact, if I was a claymore who had witnessed how human Riful could be, awakening would be a temptation I would have a very difficult time resisting.

Until you remember that eating people is not a good thing, or that your heart is dark enough to accept that as a price to gain the power of an Awakened Being.

I have a strong suspicion that by the time the manga is over, AB are not going to be viewed as all that evil, especially since this entire manga seems to blur that definition. The anime ending was horrible, but I certainly wouldn't be surprised if there is some reconciliation at some point between claymore/ABs etc. Raki being with Isley/Pri certainly pushes that point when combined with how human Isley could show himself to be.

It is possible, but I don't think so right now. Priscilla is a possibility, but Isley has shown himself to be quite evil, he sacrificed all his comrades, and is currently manipulating Priscilla for his own goals.

And how is an awakened being so powerful when it comes from a piece of a yoma laying inside a human being? What is it about the human being that is able to amplify that yoma power so much that a yoma can't just "awaken" without a human component as a catalyst/incubator/whatever.

With what we know now, a "piece" of Yoma could simply be a catalyst, and not an actual piece of Yoma flesh. Yoma are artifical beings, and the nature of their flesh and blood might act as some sort of constant "combat drug" for humans if implanted into their body.

Awakened beings might actually be the original purpose of implanting humans with "yoma flesh," and Claymores the "by-product."

Considering some 100 years or so of yoma slaughtering has been going on and there are still yoma running around killing humans insinuates strongly that the Organization continues to make and spread yoma around the lands.

I think the Organization controls the Yoma to the point that they won't become bad enough to wipe out the humans in the local area as well. I don't doubt they move the Yoma as they wish.

Have we ever seen a female yoma (not AB)? Is the lack of female yoma on purpose to control reproduction (assuming reproduction is even possible for yoma). Going further on that thought, could an AB become pregnant?

To be fair, we don't know what a female Yoma would look like, flying ones could even be female. They are shape-shifters, and thus the forms they take as a human really don't indicate a gender, and they can take the shape of men/women/children at will.

As for yoma being dumb, I think we are projecting on them dumbness just because they are the weaklings in this universe. The one who pretended to be Raki's brother in the very beginning certainly didn't seem to be any stupider than any other human being.

Don't think they are incrediably stupid, but they are definetly not much smarter then your average peasant. (for the most part)

I still want to know what is supposed to be so horrifying about a Claymore's abdomen. A yoma's face? (Though that wouldn't work for Claire I guess...it must be something Yoma related).

No clue at this time, probably best left to the imagination.

Why guts? Is the Org really out to kill humanity and the craving for human guts was simply a fool-proof method of ensuring their soldiers would do their task one way or another? The MiB certainly aren't pure humans. I used to think they were some form of Yoma with deeply depressed auras. Now with all this "Dragon" talk I'm not sure where to begin in pegging what the MiB actually are.

Could go with the "Ki" theory, Ki is supposed to be focused around the gut, so Yoma needing to eat the guts for "Ki" would make sense, it would also help explain why Claymores are so strong with Yoma-bits inside of them. They would have a constant source of Ki in themself to power their "Yoki."

Gonna have to wait for more details on the DoD, they seem to have immensely tough hides though.

Some insight from normal humans would be nice. With all the yoma going around killing humans, it almost should be that the Org would have to bring in new colonies from the "mainland" at a steady rate to keep the human test population at an acceptable rate. Also, Rafaela insinuated that the Org sort of had carte blanche to take girls from homes which would require a pretty strict rule over the humans in this land by the Org which definitely goes into the whole this land being just a test-bed (perhaps new towns-colonies are lured by false promises to the area...but are financially backed by the Org...sort of a pseudo serfdom ala colonial america).

I think the Organization colonized the entire place a long time ago (or it was already inhabited) and simply started experimenting. Bringing in new humans wouldn't be easy, as they would know that the Yoma are unnatural beings.

About the male awakened beings, I don't think that period lasted long at all. Wasn't Dolph #3 behind Isley and Rigaldo, and when Dolph had that short reunion with Isley's awakened followers, their conversation strongly insinuated they were all claymores together, which in turn strongly insinuates that most, if not all, of the male claymores awakened together (perhaps on purpose in order to rebel/gain freedom?), which would also imply a disaster that big probably wouldn't have repeated (hence going with girls), which implies the male generation was like a class long.

I think the Organization tried mass-producing male-warriors at the start, but then the mass awakening happened. It is possible that the male generation was trying to rebel, and that would be an interesting route to go, but they lost sight of their goal due to the desire to eat human guts to survive.

There seem to be an awful lot of ABs randomly walking the world which makes you wonder how dismal of a failure is the black card system (Clarice/Miata story implied they ran into many on their hunt for Galatea).

Or that the Organization still produces "pure" awakened beings, or that the male generation was simply very large.

Teresa's comments to the villagers oh so many chapters ago certainly make you wonder how much she really knew about the true state of things. And certainly would add yet another dimension towards her (until Claire) disdain towards humans and "smile". If, ultimately, the Org wishes to eradicate humanity, and I was a Claymore with that knowledge, I'd certainly find it amusing "protecting" humans as my day job.

I think Teresa was simply intellgient enough to pick up that something didn't add up, but was initially unwilling to take action against the Organization.

I don't see Galatea joining them for any length of time. She is very much a loner and her conversation (very short though it was) in Ch. 78 with Miria strongly insinuated that Galatea would not fit in with them.

I think that will change if they plan on going against the Organization soon, especially with the newest revelation.

I can't see what plot-reasons there are for Clarice/Miata unless they are going to spread the truth in some way to convince many other Claymores to rebel against the Org. They just don't fit in with Miria and crew. Considering Clarice is super-weak and Miata is a feral child, they don't have much going for them if they were to attempt to convince others, but that kind of plot/character development is the only reason why I thought that might be the direction they go. Or even crazier, maybe Clarice will eventually be the one who manages to "awaken" the humans in this test-bed of the truth behind their world, and her having human-hair would actually serve a real plot purpose beyond implying the Org was weakened a lot.

Miata gives the Ghosts a way of detecting people without Yoki, and is a powerhouse, and the Ghosts need all the power they can get. Clarice is a humanizing factor, and really isn't as stupid as people make her out to be, she is actually quite intelligent. Clarice is also important to keeping Miata in check.

If Claire used the flash-sword in Ch. 78, then isn't she no longer undetectable by yoma-seekers? Could be a nice plot-contrivance for Rubel (or however his name is spelled) to somehow come into contact with Miria and crew. He's certainly been built up to possibly have his own agenda which might not strictly follow the Org's.

She used Wind Cutter. I do want to see Rubel on the side of the Ghosts myself. :cool:

Anyone know how many episodes the Manga is supposed to go? Ch. 79 revelations have just made it a huge world with a ton of potential story in my opinion, which is good because the whole revenge thing wasn't going to be able to sustain it much longer and never seemed to be the real story anyways.

Manga is supposed to go up to Volume 25, we are on 14 I think.

Can't wait for 80.

You said it :heh:

--------------------------

Yeah, riful will perhaps join the party i wonder if she knows all about the org?

If you mean by join the party, kill Clare for pissing her off? Then yeah, it is possible, but I doubt she plans on allying with anyone who doesn't awaken to serve her goals. :uhoh:

Yes, we don't know if i'm right. But there are indications that half-awakening discharges the "yoki - battery" and probably enlarges the loading capacity of this battery.
1. Jean fought with her drill sword several times after beeing a butterfly and brought back by clare. -> strong yoki - usage
2. Clare extensive use of yoki and half-awakenings/partial awakening. But you're right, because she's 3/4 human she could be perhaps more resiliant on it than other claymores despite her aggressive nature.
and if we carefully observe the whole manga there are probably more...

If anything, the increase in strength indicates they are becoming "closer" to being Awakened Beings, as their Yoki quality directly increases.

1) Jean's Tornado Sword being usable several times is a by-product of her partial awakening, she is able to manipulate her body easier then before, indicating she is closer to AB status, just like Helen and Deneve.

2) Clare has partially-awakened so much that I wouldn't be suprised if she was closer then anyone, even being 3/4th human (originally)

Yes, Elena and Hilda were victims of the yoki - usage. But she didn't had the help of yoki alignment. IMO if clare could go back in time she probably didn't have to kill hilda because one alignment would easily restore her to normal.

Clare barely had Pre-emptive Yoki-sensing at that time, so I doubt she could have brought Elena (not Hilda) back, and their was nothing "easy" about pulling someone back. Jean had an Iron-will, and Galatea is the best non-AB Yoki-manipulator short of the Twins.

Clare was not as good as galatea but she had plenty of time to exercise... and it was good enough to bring jean back from a full awakening. Riful was interested in her too, so she couldn't be so bad at it. And remember: The ghost seems to have exchanged knowledge, because the claymore who tried to heal galatea could do yoki manip. Perhaps she has learned it from clare.

Exercise on what? She has had her Yoki supressed for the past 7 years, and using Yoki-manipulation would mean breaking stealth, which means she hasn't done it. Cynthia was probably capable of "healing" Yoki manipulation before, but just never had the chance to display it.

And if you think about the issue that the org would probably awakened beeings arround to measure their strength, the org probably didn't do much to prevent claymores from awakening. After this chapter we have to change our point of view about claymore.

I don't think the Organization was aware that they survived. This chapter certainly clarified alot of things.

--------

BTW, Galatea can join up with the Ghosts if they are breaking stealth (which they appear to be doing, if Cynthia's offer to help is any indication), and or Galatea could simply follow Miata/Clarice, since they have been offered to tag along as well. :D

---------------------------

P.S. If Clare switching to Flash-Sword is your arguement for her being stronger then Miria, Miria could just as easily pick up her speed if Yoki is allowed. Flash-Sword is also more inaccurate and less powerful in striking then the Windcutter.

Miria might not have been able to close in on Clare with the Windcutter, but she was certainly able to dodge every strike, indicating Miria's entire body could move at the same speed as each of Clare's Windcutter strikes.

Clare's Yoki-reading is also only as good as her own reaction speed, and we know Miria's Yoki-enchanced speed is amazing, if she suddenly switched to it, Clare would have an extremely hard time countering it.

So I wouldn't be so quick to claim Clare is the strongest in the group, especially when they are constantly portrayed as equal. (From Deneve/Helen's commentary, and Miata's sixth sense)

Kamel

2008-05-04, 11:23

I am kind of confused after reading this chapter due to the time issues:

quoting Frankly House translation: “about hundred years ago split in two sides took place"
Then it means that only after that , the "youma experiment" on the island began.

But firstly isn't this contradictory considering how many generations of claymores there have been already.
Secondly ,didn’t some of the abyssal ones were said to being living for far longer then hundred years.
Lastly how can a fully developed civilization with a long history developed in such short amount of time?

Methuselah

2008-05-04, 11:40

- If only women can use the sword and become claymores. Then does that mean soon the battle will only see women fighting and not the men? Thus men staying home and planting rice fields ?

I think you missed the fact that male warriors were later replaced by female warriors because of their inability to suppress their Youki. Its been confirmed that males experienced something equivalent to sexual pleasure when reaching their limit, which explains their inability to control their awakening. *Vol 6?

hell88

2008-05-04, 11:41

"Damn that woman!"

Ring any bells.:D

Sid is going to probably fallow them around now and Galk will come too. LOL that would be funny. Then Raki would show up eventually and kick him in the balls again for making out with Clare again.:heh: Helen would be like don't worry Sid you can still make out with me!:p

servidor

2008-05-04, 11:42

What is Yuma punch btw?

It is a running joke among us fans of Claymore here at Animesuki. Most fans are fond of her since she was just # 40 at the moment of the Battle of the North, and is a bit insecure, so fans decided to give her an special attack to be at the same level as Clare or Miria.