Macross Frontier - Vajra discussion [Archive]

ipernorris

2008-05-03, 04:38

The Vajra

The purpose of this thread is to provide a place to discuss all things Vajra related. The Vajra are the enemy of humans and zentradi in the Macross Frontier series.

This discussion may include, but is not limited to:
Vajra mecha.
Their biology.
Their social organization.
The origin of the Vajra.
Their goals.

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100
How are the Vajra structured?
So far (episode 4) they have appeared as giant insect-like beings attacking the Macross Frontier fleet in small groups with two variants,
as shown below:
http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/8563/vajra000ow9.jpg
the bigger red variant seem to command the smaller brown one. The red variant seems to be more rare than the brown variant, but it's
much stronger.
In episode 5 quite a bit of details regarding the Vajra were released:

They can fold on their own. (It's obvious from episode 1 tough...)
Their shell is of similiar material as a Valkyrie's energy conversion armor.
It gradually grows missile-like objects internally.
They have no brain, so they have no thoughts. This implies they're controlled by someone else.

100
How can a Vajra be taken out?
The red variant Vajra isn't even scratched by missiles and beams weapons, while the brown variant can be taken out by missiles.
Another thing we know is that the mind of a Vajra isn't in their head because they can move even if their head is blown away, as it's shown in this image:
http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/9118/vajra005lu3.th.jpg (http://img329.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vajra005lu3.jpg)
So far we've only seen Ozuma and Alto being able to kill a red Vajra variant on a 1 vs 1 fight, but only because of particular circumnstances. Specifically Ozma was able to kill a red Vajra by himself only because it was distracted by something (Ranka?) song so Ozma was able to hit the Vajra with a (big) knife, as it is shown here:

http://img379.imageshack.us/img379/7900/weakpointdr9.th.jpg (http://img379.imageshack.us/my.php?image=weakpointdr9.jpg)
This seems to prove that the red Vajra have an armor only on their UPPER part, while the rest is relatively weaker.
Alto killed one because he imitated Klein Klan, who made the first crack on the upper part of the red Vajra with a zentradi beam cannon by the way. In general the red Vajra variant seems to be vulnerable in their lower parts (as shown in the screen above) and in the specific upper point shown in these screens:
http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/240/vulnerability001ys4.th.jpg (http://img329.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vulnerability001ys4.jpg)http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/693/vulnerability002jr2.th.jpg (http://img337.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vulnerability002jr2.jpg)http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/1509/vulnerability003ba1.th.jpg (http://img248.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vulnerability003ba1.jpg)

Other characters are able to take on the red Vajra most likely, like Klein Klan and her Pixie Squad.
100
What is the link between the Vajra and the songs?
Even if Vajra's purposes are unknown at the current stage of the series), but we know they're attracted by songs. It's not clear if they're attracted by Ranka's songs or by songs in general, but the link between the Vajra and the songs is a fact. In episode 5 it's shown that Ranka's song makes a red Vajra reviving so it's quite clear that the songs give the Vajra the energy they need to live: it's most likely the Spiritia which was introduced in Macross 7 for the first time. Spiritia is a form of energy generated by all living things - from plants to humans and Zentradis - a sort of life force. A person's spiritia can regenerate through listening to music: the music carries the most pure form of spiritia called "anima spiritia".
100
The Vajra's battlecruiser.
In episode 7 the first Vajra's capital ship appeared:

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/5536/vlcsnap253330no1.th.jpg (http://img262.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vlcsnap253330no1.jpg)

it's a battlecruiser and it has the ability to fold out without being affected by fold dislocation devices.
It has tons of artillety weapons: it can grow them inside itself most likely, like all other Vajra can do. In this sense this battlecruiser can be considered as a new kind of Vajra and so it can be considered a biological weapon as well.
Anyway its most devastating weapon isn't artillery but a huge beam that it fires by opening its front and it is generated by a fold reactor.

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/7006/vlcsnap255272xl2.th.jpg (http://img296.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vlcsnap255272xl2.jpg)http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/6813/vlcsnap255782yw4.th.jpg (http://img165.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vlcsnap255782yw4.jpg)http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/7814/vlcsnap269593ru2.th.jpg (http://img214.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vlcsnap269593ru2.jpg)http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/6209/vlcsnap269668oy2.th.jpg (http://img522.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vlcsnap269668oy2.jpg)http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/6209/vlcsnap269668oy2.th.jpg (http://img522.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vlcsnap269668oy2.jpg)
http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/6889/vlcsnap269742ad8.th.jpg (http://img299.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vlcsnap269742ad8.jpg)http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/6391/vlcsnap270331ac9.th.jpg (http://img296.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vlcsnap270331ac9.jpg)http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/1446/vlcsnap270414ho7.th.jpg (http://img165.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vlcsnap270414ho7.jpg)http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/1930/vlcsnap270478tm3.th.jpg (http://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vlcsnap270478tm3.jpg)http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/8736/vlcsnap270525do0.th.jpg (http://img262.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vlcsnap270525do0.jpg)
http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/2689/vlcsnap270573ao5.th.jpg (http://img522.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vlcsnap270573ao5.jpg)

ReddyRedWolf

2008-05-03, 14:35

There is link between the Protoculture and Vajra.

The Vajra has the same spiral markings found on Mayan island in Macross Zero.

Also being a biological weapon with beam weaponry it is closer to the Birdman. (Macross Zero)

Sara and Mao Nome are singers akin to Anima Spiritia singer Nekki Basara of Macross 7.
In Macross Zero Sara Nome bonded with the Birdman.

From what we know the last survivors of the Protoculture were the Anima Spiritia as they were able to seal the Protodevlin in Varuta.

Compared to the Evil series, which were possesed by the Protodevlin, Vajra appear to be conventional weapons instead of the ultimate super weapons.

The Vajra in captivity revived under Ranka's song. An energy grows is seen as it is revived. Now Ranka may posses the same characteristics as Nekki Basara and the Nome sisters. An Anima Spiritia. Song energy in Macross 7 has been shown to help plant growth as well to help individuals whose spiritia energy has been drained.

Given this scant evidence Macross Frontier may be facing the Protoculture itself as their enemy.

Zekori

2008-05-03, 15:15

The Vajra has the same spiral markings found on Mayan island in Macross Zero.

Given this scant evidence Macross Frontier may be facing the Protoculture itself as their enemy.

I remember one source stating that the insignia for protoculture was a spiral, which markings can be found in Macross Zero and on the Vajra.

If it is a direct link and case, then its all more possible that the Vajra are either
- protoculture
- Weapon remnants used for so-and-so reason yet explained, that we havent gotten perspective to why the Vajra attacked Ranka long ago.
- The remains of the Supervision Army, unsure if it ever was stated that they all went poof.

At this point of time, im least leaning on the Vajra being the protoculture race. But who knows. :heh:

ReddyRedWolf

2008-05-03, 15:38

Well we don't know what happened to the rest of the original Supervision Army.
Only the new Supervision Army from the Varutan Megaroad 13 colonists brainwashed by the Protodevlin.

ASS-1 or the SDF-1 Macross is the only piece of technology recovered of the original Supervision Army.

The Supervision Army was more like a third party introduced late in the Protoculture war by the Protodevlin.

As the Protoculture split themselves into 2 factions.

After singers like Lynn Minmei and Nekki Basara it is expected that songs can not be used negatively.

But as with the incident with the AI Sharon Apple of Macross Plus songs can be used for control and brainwashing.

Onizuka-GTO

2008-05-05, 02:51

hmm....Biuological weapons, that's the equivalent to a Ghost A.I. fighter, has self-manufacturing missile bays, energy proto-culture amour, and to round it off an Animu Spiritia energy converter perhaps?

But the self-replicating missiles (and decoys i suspect) was a happy surprised.

:)

It has babies, which has the intelligence of a smart micro missile, then fires them at you.

I wonder if it makes it's own ammo for it's arm cannons as well?

It seems to be a kinetic weapon but caseless.

ReddyRedWolf

2008-05-05, 03:35

It seems to be a kinetic weapon but caseless.

Ever heard of a rail gun?

Anyway if episode 5 is any indication Vajra are likely controled by emulators like the Marduk of the AU Macross II.

The Vajra's reaction may not be hostile to Ranka.

Let's see the songs effect throughout the francise.

Macross - Culture shock to the Zentradi.

Macross Plus - Sharon Apple's hypnotic control. Myung's song can snap a person out of it.

Macross 7 - Anima Spiritia an energy created by song is too pure for Protodevlin to absorb and is repelled by it. It can snap mind controled beings and raise spiritia levels.

Macross Zero - Sara and Mao Nome's song can affect Protoculture related artifacts.

Onizuka-GTO

2008-05-05, 04:06

Ever heard of a rail gun?

................or a gauss gun, particle accelerator, liquid plasma, pulse laser.....who knows?

:rolleyes:

squaresphere

2008-05-05, 08:13

Or the "bullets" are really spines ejected from a specialized organ ala the Hydraliks from starcraft

4Tran

2008-05-05, 12:47

Given the topic at hand, it's unavoidable to refrain from discussing the other Macross shows. However, there are a large number of new viewers to the Macross universe, so I'm going to insist that spoilers that give away the ending of an older show (or any other major event) be placed inside spoiler tags, and properly marked:

BOOM!

Onizuka-GTO

2008-05-05, 13:33

Or the "bullets" are really spines ejected from a specialized organ ala the Hydraliks from starcraft

....or insect bullets with monocular-sharp head cones and chomping teeth that start burrowing into armour and flesh upon hitting the target,Tyrants Warrior guns in Warhammer 40K.

:p

glyph

2008-05-05, 15:36

After watching episode 5, I think

Leon might be partly mistaken about the Vajra being pilotless biomechanical drones. Just before the red Vajra specimen reactivates, a distinctly humanoid form of light begins coalescing within it's core.

It could be that
1. The Vajra mech disintegrates and absorbs the pilot's body when deactivated like a miclonization chamber. There just wasn't a pilot there at time they analysed it.

2. The nervous system of the Vajra mech itself acts as a brain containing the consciousness of a former humanoid pilot,

Onizuka-GTO

2008-05-05, 17:44

Uncreative

2008-05-06, 02:06

I actually like to entertain the thought that the Vajra have a hive-mind similar to the Formics (buggers) in the Ender's Game novels.

The Formic species consists of hive-minded colonies that are directed by queens by a telepatic means of communication that stretches over light-years. If a queen dies, all the drones under her control lose their intelligence and ability to function immediately. Formic queens communicate instantaneously and can even do so with other species, although this is more difficult.

Simply put, the Vajra are just some space-faring pest that the protoculture stepped on or wiped off their windshields. They exterminated their queens long ago and now the mindless workers simply drift in space until humans came along and were able to "mimic" the presence of a queen through song power. This presence awakened them and they are simply trying to find and "protect" their queen.

ReddyRedWolf

2008-05-06, 02:23

Wesley84

2008-05-08, 08:23

They're clearly space dolphins.

Onizuka-GTO

2008-05-08, 08:40

They're clearly space dolphins.

best answer so far. :p

Uncreative

2008-05-08, 15:42

so long, and thanks for all the fish?

Also, how does the similarity to the protoculture markings disprove my theory? For all we know the protoculture could have been inspired by the Vajra markings to include them in their art.

Tabris

2008-05-08, 21:14

Just going to copy paste my last reply in the episode 6 discussion thread.

But these spoilers are for the episode 7 preview, not 6.

I thought this was M-Galaxy for some reason first time I watched through it because of the clamshell design, but after pausing the screenshot, it doesn't look so much like a colonisation ship any more.

http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/2189/ehlw5.jpg

Maybe it's like a Vajra hive? It does a mighty large beam, I'll say that at least.
http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/8899/91022440bq3.jpg

Edit:

Okay, I'm pretty definite it's a Vajra capital ship/hive or something, this was earlier in the preview.
http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/3395/grab34732ih2.jpg

ipernorris

2008-05-09, 12:52

Good find Tabris, finally something serious and not that space dolphin joke thing.
But...

What the hell are those green flowers-like things in the last picture? A new kind of Vajra? :confused:

Wesley84

2008-05-09, 13:02

It wasn't a joke.

ipernorris

2008-05-09, 14:53

It wasn't a joke.
Ok Vajra are space dolphins for you, but it's YOUR PERSONAL speculation: it's nowhere near something which can be called a FACT. There is no evidence a part from that generic shape you think is a dolphin.

Wesley84

2008-05-09, 14:59

Ok Vajra are space dolphins for you, but it's YOUR PERSONAL speculation: it's nowhere near something which can be called a FACT. There is no evidence a part from that generic shape you think is a dolphin.

It was either a dolphin or something totally random that just so happened to look exactly like a dolphin.

ipernorris

2008-05-09, 15:03

It was either a dolphin or something totally random that just so happened to look exactly like a dolphin.
That ligh is spiritia most likely. Do you want to say that spiritia is a dolphin? :p

Wesley84

2008-05-09, 16:09

That ligh is spiritia most likely. Do you want to say that spiritia is a dolphin? :p

Why not? "Spiritia" is already stupid enough, it may as well be a space dolphin.

Tabris

2008-05-09, 20:39

Good find Tabris, finally something serious and not that space dolphin joke thing.
But...

What the hell are those green flowers-like things in the last picture? A new kind of Vajra? :confused:

Missiles ?

ipernorris

2008-05-10, 02:10

Missiles ?
But they aren't aerodynamic at all with that shape...

astranagun

2008-05-10, 08:19

Wire/nervous-controlled weapons ?:uhoh:

ipernorris

2008-05-10, 12:48

Wire/nervous-controlled weapons ?:uhoh:
Uhm some kind of wired dragoons/funnels/fangs? Lol it would be overkill...

Xellos-_^

2008-05-10, 13:41

They're clearly space dolphins.

It is not a dolphin

It is a Whale, a space Whale.

Tabris

2008-05-10, 13:54

But they aren't aerodynamic at all with that shape...
I don't think that really matters when you have space crabs fighting against transforming space jets and giant human mechasuits.

DarkWarrior

2008-05-10, 14:47

But they aren't aerodynamic at all with that shape...

Last I checked, aerodynamics doesn't mean much in space.

ipernorris

2008-05-11, 00:29

Last I checked, aerodynamics doesn't mean much in space.
Yes you're right, I realized this yesterday night... :heh:
Anyway their shape is quite weird for being an aircraft.

ReddyRedWolf

2008-05-11, 00:35

Vajra function more like bugs than a jet in a atmosphere. Red ones have wings.

Onizuka-GTO

2008-05-11, 07:49

It is not a dolphin

It is a Whale, a space Whale.

I contest your conclusion,

It's not a space whale!

Space whales are enormous creatures with FTL propulsion organs.

No way they will fit inside a VAJRA.

No.

It's clearly a Dolphin, its "thanks for all the fish" but clearly there were elements that were certainly not thankful for the fish.

Also you have to considered, dolphins sing all the time, so it'd natural that these vajra are powered by dolphin animu spiritia songs.

:D:p

ipernorris

2008-05-11, 08:16

Zekori

2008-05-11, 08:42

Ok that shape is Paris Hilton guys!!! :p
Can we stop this nonsense for now? We have NO evidence to say what means that shape seen within the Vajra. It can be anything or it could even be meaningless: until some evidence is shown in the anime evreything is speculation.

Pretty much, they switched the scene as it was still "expanding", I wouldn't be surprised if it was nothing at all and just the whole core was beginning to glow.

I just wonder how the birdman from Zero will tie into all this.

ReddyRedWolf

2008-05-11, 21:43

Did anybody caught the implication that the Vajra are from the Protoculture.

All protoculture derived cultures use space folding. (Well except space whales.:p)

Also why did the Vajra take the main island of Macross Galaxy?

The last time anybody took a main island intact was the Protodevlin capturing Macross 5.

Wesley84

2008-05-11, 21:57

stormy001_M1A2

2008-05-11, 23:25

I suspected Ranka could be the queen of Vajras or some high ranking priestess that can activate the war machines. Perhaps she subconciously destroyed Galaxy since Sheryl came from there, in reaction of her jealousy of blooming feeling between Alto and Sheryl?

Did not help when her origins are shrouded in mystery, Perhaps she was kidnapped or rescued by accident by the scientific team?

It would be interesting if Ranka turned out to be Big Bad Evil in a twist, forcing Alto to kill her to end Vajra's attack.

ReddyRedWolf

2008-05-12, 00:06

pinoy78

2008-05-12, 00:31

Interesting explanation of the word Vajra.

"The late medieval terms basara and kabukimono are originally based on the Sanskrit term vajra (kongo, kongoseki). Kongoseki, which means "diamond," signifies that which can pulverize anything, and has long been used to describe the destruction of preconceived ideas, a tendency also closely related to kabukimono. Kabukimono signifies an individual who takes pleasure in shocking other people with his unusual behavior and appearance, and is similar in meaning to basara."

Vajra = All powerful/ destruction of preconceived ideas, Basara = one who takes pleasure in shocking people with his unusual behavior/ appearance, and BASARA is connected to VAJRA.
Citation: http://www3.ocn.ne.jp/~tenmyoya/text/text.html

ipernorris

2008-05-12, 04:37

Here I put some of the most significant statements about Vajra on Wikipedia:

Vajra (Devanagari: वज्र) is a Sanskrit word meaning both thunderbolt and diamond and is the most important of all Buddhist symbols. It is a short metal weapon that has the nature of a diamond (it can cut any substance but not be cut itself) and the nature of the thunderbolt (irresistible force). The vajra has come to represent firmness of spirit and sprirtual power.

The vajra destroys all kinds of ignorance, and itself is indestructible. In tantric rituals the Vajra symbolizes the male principle which represents method in the right hand and the Bell symbolizes the female principle, which is held in the left. Their interaction leads to enlightenment. Also the Dorje or Vajra represents the "Upaya" or method Tibetans name Vajra as "Dorje". When made to be worn as a pendant, it reminds the wearer, and the viewer, of the supreme indestructibility of knowledge.

ReddyRedWolf

2008-05-12, 04:44

Well Vajra is what UN spacy has called it not that it calls itself like that or it's creators.

Red Custom VF-19 Excalibur - Basara
Red Biomechanical weapon - Vajra :heh:

Tabris

2008-05-12, 06:41

So I read this post in the Episode 6 discussion, then I remembered something I was going to post when episode 5 RAWS were first released, but forgot what to say when it came to posting here.

She said she'd return to Galaxy after the concert, in order to show she believed that they would win and beat the Bugs. The question is 'when' since she merely said after the concert... and if the Galaxy's dead (read: Zerged by the bugs into a hiveship, assimilated into a cube, turned into a space hulk, or otherwise rendered unfit for human occupancy), she may not to get to go back after all.

I remembered that the Vajra have the same armour type as Valkyries. So, it just got me thinking *kinda spoilers relating to my last post*, not necessary to read, but do so if you want :) but with me getting the Vajra carrier confused with Galaxy because of the clamshell-shape I was thinking maybe the Vajra have a way of integrating technology or attributes from their enemies into themselves?

Like, maybe they started off as a rather basic life form, and kept evolving as they predated on other species/whatever else is around and the race keeps on upgrading itself through taking in new materials and technologies?

Just another guess, probably way off the mark, but I thought I'd throw the idea out :D

Onizuka-GTO

2008-05-12, 07:20

So I read this post in the Episode 6 discussion, then I remembered something I was going to post when episode 5 RAWS were first released, but forgot what to say when it came to posting here.

I remembered that the Vajra have the same armour type as Valkyries. So, it just got me thinking *kinda spoilers relating to my last post*, not necessary to read, but do so if you want :) but with me getting the Vajra carrier confused with Galaxy because of the clamshell-shape I was thinking maybe the Vajra have a way of integrating technology or attributes from their enemies into themselves?

Like, maybe they started off as a rather basic life form, and kept evolving as they predated on other species/whatever else is around and the race keeps on upgrading itself through taking in new materials and technologies?

Just another guess, probably way off the mark, but I thought I'd throw the idea out :D

The fact that the enemy has the same type of "armour" the same type of "Folding" and responds to "Animu Spiritia" is ticking some boxes that seems to say "Protoculture!" to me.

:)

Too many things here are too similar here, we forget the Old Ones were a meddlesome lot.

:rolleyes:

ipernorris

2008-05-12, 08:04

The fact that the enemy has the same type of "armour" the same type of "Folding" and responds to "Animu Spiritia" is ticking some boxes that seems to say "Protoculture!" to me.

:)

Too many things here are too similar here, we forget the Old Ones were a meddlesome lot.

:rolleyes:
Are you saying that the Vajra ARE the Protoculture? It could be and it would be priceless: the most mighty civilization known in the Macross Universe were BUGS?!? :D

Wesley84

2008-05-12, 08:39

Are you saying that the Vajra ARE the Protoculture? It could be and it would be priceless: the most mighty civilization known in the Macross Universe were BUGS?!? :D

Maybe as they exist today.

squaresphere

2008-05-12, 09:12

I dunno if they're protoculture themselves but all evidence points to the fact they are connected to the protoculture some how. I'm still thinking they're the replacements the protoculture created after they lost control of the Zentradi.

Onizuka-GTO

2008-05-12, 09:24

Are you saying that the Vajra ARE the Protoculture? It could be and it would be priceless: the most mighty civilization known in the Macross Universe were BUGS?!? :D

I'm saying nothing and everything.

I'm only stating that they were a meddlesome race that liked to play "God"

besides who are you calling "BUGS"?

For all we know humanoids form might actually be the official "BUGS" of the galaxy

after all we never seem to die and fornicate everywhere leaving a mess behind us. :D:p

ReddyRedWolf

2008-05-12, 09:36

after all we never seem to die and fornicate everywhere leaving a mess behind us. :D:p

It's bunnies. Like that bridge bunny whose ass the captain likes to slap. Seksuahara ka.

But you do have a point if the Vajra is some sort off failsafe system the Protoculture left behind.

They were against the evolution of a aggressive interstellar species. A little too late don't you think.

These are also the guys that left a repository of knowledge which rises up because of a rock star and defense systems that shut down when it is found out there is a Zent-human baby.

squaresphere

2008-05-12, 09:38

I'm pretty sure the protoculture was humanoid from the M7 ruins they found on Lux.

ReddyRedWolf

2008-05-12, 09:42

I'm pretty sure the protoculture was humanoid from the M7 ruins they found on Lux.

Yeah well the guy wasn't that distinctive. Unless of course the Protoculture pulled a SG1 Ancients where the going got tough turn to energy beings.

Blue Reverie

2008-05-12, 17:31

While the Vajra may be linked to the Protoculture, they are probably something obscure, and probably not "replacement soldiers" for the Zentraedi. Otherwise I think the Zentraedi would've encountered them before, and thus NUNs would know more about them (Since they've got the expertise of several extremely knowledgeable Zentraedi (Breetai, Exedore) to draw on.

CaptGloval

2008-05-12, 19:58

Well, it's not really proven yet that the Zentraedi have no knowledge of the Vajra. In fact, my opinion leans into the opposite direction because of the Bilra character. Of course, let's wait and see.

Blue Reverie

2008-05-12, 20:36

True, I forgot about him, also the Zentraedi debris in that asteroid field in ep 4 might be a good indicator too.

But if the Zentraedi have encounter them in the past, I doubt it was extensive contact, or NUNs would probably know more about them. Then again, the Zentraedi aren't exactly great scientists so intelligence from them would be largely stuff like "They can shoot big beams and have soft underbellies".

Tak

2008-05-12, 20:46

Well, it's not really proven yet that the Zentraedi have no knowledge of the Vajra.

Where is the great Zentradi Archivist/Mentat when we need him!?

- Tak (They need a blog titled "Ask Exsedol")

Sander RX

2008-05-13, 02:45

I dig the Big Red Vajra.Awesome,ferocius,tough,powerful,mysterious.I love them!
Little Brown...meh,atleast it is better then VF-171 cannon fodder.

ReddyRedWolf

2008-05-13, 07:24

Where is the great Zentradi Archivist/Mentat when we need him!?

- Tak (They need a blog titled "Ask Exsedol")

Somewhere in the core region of the galaxy...

Macross 7 has already made landfall and started a colonization of the planet which has tropical islands.

One of these islands is owned by former Advisor to the Zentradi and UN Spacy Exsedol Folmo.

Who spends much of his royalties recieved from the Folmo Malls , a hit franchise throughout the colonies and fleets using his name for recognition, on miclone girls (some of which are bridge bunnies) and Meltrans wearing bikinis.

"Ahh Deculture~" - Exsedol Folmo

"Exsedol-kun there's a call from New UN Spacy, you want to take it?" - bridge bunny in a bunny suit.

*Takes off shades*

"Bunny-chan, Tell them I'm retired, why do they suppose I joined Macross 7? This is a retirement fleet. A lot of us here are old men from Space War 1! The younger girl - older men population ratio is what attracted me to this colony. And they want to drag me back out there?!"

squaresphere

2008-05-13, 09:37

^ haha so true

Tabris

2008-05-16, 17:20

Anyone who's seen the Episode 7 RAWs think that the capital ship was a bit underwhelming?

I mean, it destroyed one escort ship, fair enough. But it's nothing we haven't seen the Red Vajra do already.

Wesley84

2008-05-16, 18:52

Yeah, it wasn't really anything we haven't seen before. It had a big gun, it wasn't really clear if it served as a carrier base or a warship, it or it's Captain didn't have the foresight to not waste it's main weapon on an asteriod, instead of the big warship that was hiding behind said asteriod. Not really the Vajra's finest moment.

Tak

2008-05-16, 18:59

Anyone who's seen the Episode 7 RAWs think that the capital ship was a bit underwhelming?

Why should it be overwhelming, though? Its noted that both Vajra and UN SPACY use similar technology, except the Vajra is a step further with its biotechnology. On the other hand, as a general rule, Macross ships tend to go down easy. Even the SDF-1 Macross became a half-dead floating grave, then into a relic, by the end of Space War I.

- Tak

Wesley84

2008-05-16, 19:09

I happen to like big ships. Finding a decent, non-Trek, series where a capital ship knows how to throw it's weight around, while taking a beating, is hard.

Tak

2008-05-16, 20:22

I forgot to mention. The Vajra main gun did hit the Quarter, and a big rock in the way really didn't do much to shield the Macross Quarter (as it went through numerous asteroids to get to one cruiser that time). What saved Macross Quarter was its energy barrier. It emerged from the explosion with sparks all over, clearly, it had taken a direct hit, but survived due to its barrier system. It is unlikely it will survive another hit, but then again, Captain Jeff obviously prevented the Vajra from firing, again ;)

- Tak

Wesley84

2008-05-16, 20:35

It most certainly wasn't a direct hit. The asteriod clearly took the brunt force of the attack, and exploded violently as a result. What Quarter experienced was probably a portion of the asteriod's mass flying into it, with some splash from the actual attack passing through.

Bottomline it wasn't the full-force of the attack, and was a wasted effort as a result. Asteriods don't count as zero just because they don't count as 100%.

Tak

2008-05-16, 20:40

Bottomline it wasn't the full-force of the attack, and was a wasted effort as a result. Asteriods don't count as zero just because they don't count as 100%.

Based on past experiences, main cannons like that can usually go through several ships without a sweat, unless it struck something more serious, like a Macross-class battleship.

As for the asteroid, that would have felt like paper to the main gun.

- Tak

Wesley84

2008-05-16, 20:49

Based on past experiences, main cannons like that can usually go through several ships without a sweat, unless it struck something more serious, like a Macross-class battleship.

As for the asteroid, that would have felt like paper to the main gun.

- Tak

Energy blasts don't "sweat". They expend energy, and they'll inevitably expend lots of it when hitting a two-five kilometer sized asteriod. It doesn't just not count because it's a rock that no one can relate to.

Macross Quarter used cover and the Vajra ship unloaded too early, and left itself vunerable. Hopefully it'll never happen again.

ipernorris

2008-05-17, 03:30

Wesley84

2008-05-17, 03:47

I think that manouver made by Macross Quarter had a double purpose:
1) decrease the energy of the beam, thus making it more sustainable by the ship's shields.
2) cover the sight to the enemy ship using the debris resulting from the destroyed asteroid. This way it was denied to the enemy ship the possibility to fire another beam immediately after the first one.

Ah guys: the enemy ship is a carrier or a battle ship in your opinion? I want to add it to the first post, but I need to know this...
I think it's more a battle ship than a carrier, but I would like to read your opinions as well.

An issue with two; I don't think the enemy ship was able to fire another blast. There's no way Quarter would have jumped right in front of the thing otherwise. So, it was in cooldown and needed to rest up a bit before firing again. Sad, but true.

I would assume it was a carrier, simply because there has to be something better armed than it in the Vajra's arsenal.

Jimmy C

2008-05-17, 12:03

Then it could be a cruiser or battlecruiser, not neccessarily a carrier.

Cadorna

2008-05-17, 15:38

tipically, all the ship have carrier capability in macross, friend or foe

encia

2008-05-17, 16:33

I happen to like big ships. Finding a decent, non-Trek, series where a capital ship knows how to throw it's weight around, while taking a beating, is hard.

Trek ships “cheated” via mass reduction field technobabble.

Wesley84

2008-05-17, 16:53

Trek ships “cheated” via mass reduction field technobabble.

I'm not sure what your point is, since nearly every sci-fi series uses some form of "inertia compensation".

Onizuka-GTO

2008-05-17, 18:47

tipically, all the ship have carrier capability in macross, friend or foe

yeah, since they are big enough for it. although they do still have dedicated Carriers, such as the four deck class, that we see frequently.

Originally SDF-1 was a Gunship/Aegis equivalent class, then it became something of a cross of a carrier, colony ship.

dunno what class i would call it.....Mothership class? heh

I think the name "Macross" is more or less a classification for a Transformable/Carrier/Gunship

:)

encia

2008-05-19, 08:39

I'm not sure what your point is,

Even in fictional universe, there’s an explanation.

Trek’s (USS Voyager in 'Parallax') mass reduction field(i.e. trek warp field(Tng 'Deja Q') or tactical shields (Voy 'Gravity' )) is capable to shield the starship from quantum singularly (aka black hole). Blackhole’s gravity influence on starship would be diminished if that starship has little relative mass.

since nearly every sci-fi series uses some form of "inertia compensation".

Depends on the counter inertia’s field strength.

The “cheat” is not quite a cheat per se since the fictional field has to factor in the conservation of energy principles. The very existence of this technobabble indicates this particular principle.

Asteroid blasting can be use for firepower calculations.

Wild Goose

2008-05-19, 10:30

After watching up to 5 and taking a look at the Vajra...

The normal browns, while being cannon fodder, appear to mount some pretty nasty gear; note the decoys they pop off in Ep 1 Broadcast and Deculture; from the way the scene is shot, it appears that not only were the decoys decoying the missiles away, but the impression I got was that the decoys were actively seeking the missiles. Smart kamikaze decoys. Though I could be wrong. :p

The Reds are, for lack of a better word, haxxed. :p Hugeass energy gun, Valk guns do jack shit against them, Klan's hugeass cannon didn't work well (although by the way she goes "Shallow hit!" leads me to think that she probably slipped up slightly, and got her cannon off-alignment juuust out of the optimal zone, leading to her borked shot), built-in fold generators AND unlimited missile generation. About the only guns that have actually been shown to work are the Zent gun Alto grabbed (and which I'll bet Klein is gonna be using) and Mikhail's sniper gunpod.

As we say in Nanoha OC thread, haxx.

Then again since the Vajra are the bad guys they get a pass on the haxx. :D :heh:

squaresphere

2008-05-23, 10:49

from ep 7 I thought it was curious that the Reds wouldn't use their large cannon on the crippled Galaxy ships to make short work of them. Makes be think they had an alternative goal rather than straight destruction.

The Vajra battleship that was called in could have been signaled in when the battle was turning against them.

Also I forgot who mentioned it (might have been some blog i read) but the fact that the Vajra had a super advance fold reactor while having almost no brain just cements the fact they're being controlled by something.

finalnight

2008-05-23, 13:56

The vajra are highly reminiscent of the shivans in freespace.

Onizuka-GTO

2008-05-23, 16:36

The vajra are highly reminiscent of the shivans in freespace.

in what way?

:confused:

Tak

2008-05-23, 17:42

Yeah, sure as heck does not remind me of the Shivans the way I remember them.

- Tak

squaresphere

2008-05-24, 16:05

he's probably just talking about the organic looking ship

Traece

2008-05-24, 17:13

I think the Vajra ship was closer to a Battlecruiser if anything. I don't recall any squadrons of Vajra flying from it in the episode but I could be wrong. At the most, it would be maybe a Battlecarrier.
Here's another theory over the asteroid part... Perhaps the asteroid was used to slow the cannon's shot and allow the transforming ship to pass without taking a large amount of damage? If you think about it, there's no way all that destructive energy could pass through the asteroid just as quickly as it passed through empty space. So perhaps Quarter just used it to buy him the time to get past, as well as to waste the Vajra's efforts and give him the time to quickly retrieve his in-need comrades and destroy the Vajra ship by firing the beam into the Fold Reactor.
My bet is the Vajra have much more to offer and we will continue to see ships getting bigger and bigger, possibly to the point where they finally see some kind of Vajra hive ship? The Vajra actually remind me of the Bronze Tribe(??) from Heroic Age(?).

Tak

2008-05-24, 17:25

*GASP* Are any of you suggesting Macross Frontier would do such unspeakable act of stealing influences!?

BLASPHEMY!

*Waves a butter knife*

BURN THE HERETIC, KILL THE MUTANT, PURGE THE UNCLEAN!!!!

Psst. Its ok, Tak, Macross Frontier is not real...

It is!? Na uh!

Psst. Yeah, you watch it on... TV n' stuff

...

.....

........

Dammit!

- Tak (Fine, here, have 'em back, I really did not mean to poke your eyeballs out)

Onizuka-GTO

2008-05-24, 17:51

is it me? or have you been drinking my tea?

give it back.

sheesh.

We only need one Holy Macross Fanatic here thank you.

me.

*pour burning Holy Macross Oil all over Tak*

:rolleyes: :p :D

Tak

2008-05-24, 18:04

How dare thee wrestle that position away from me!

FEAR THE POWERS OF THE ECCLESIARCHY!

*stabs Onizuka-GTO repeatedly with a butter-knife*

- Tak (Macross fanatic since 1982, thank you!)

ipernorris

2008-05-27, 09:04

I upadted the first post adding the Vajra's battlecruiser info. Anyway I considered it a new type of Vajra rather than a Vajra's ship: it's very likely that battlecruiser can make its weapons (bullets, missiles and such) grow on its own, like the other Vajra can do.

My bet is the Vajra have much more to offer and we will continue to see ships getting bigger and bigger, possibly to the point where they finally see some kind of Vajra hive ship? The Vajra actually remind me of the Bronze Tribe(??) from Heroic Age(?).
The Vajra has SURELY more to offer than just this. In next attacks more and more Vajra's ships will appear and in much larger numbers as well. I expect the appearance of a Vajra's carrier (a hive...) and a Vajra's destroyer as well. I don't understand how the humantradi ( :p ) plan on dealing with the Vajra because ordinary weapons don't do a shit to Vajra and the most powerful ones (Zentradi beam and the Macross cannon) will become useless very soon (let's just remember at how useless the Macross cannon was against the full form of a Protodeviln). The most powerful weapon in Macross series has always been the music: making Zentradi losing their will to fight and making the Protodeviln running away.
Here we have the Vajra instead, which are activated by the sound energy (anima spiritia) to fight so if someone sings to the they only become stronger and/or get up... :heh:

squaresphere

2008-05-27, 09:41

ipernorris

2008-05-27, 09:43

Depends on the music ;) I think j-pop pisses them off, they need Basara with his 80's rock.

In actuality we don't really know what songs do the Vajra. The Frontier president seems to think the bugs wouldn't understand it so they didn't even try.
They're attracted by it, it's clearly shown in various episodes and the most clear example was the red Vajra in the military labs.

squaresphere

2008-05-27, 09:47

Well that's based on perspective. Are they attracted to listen to it or are they attracted cause it annoys them and they want to get rid of it?

ipernorris

2008-05-27, 09:49

Well that's based on perspective. Are they attracted to listen to it or are they attracted cause it annoys them and they want to get rid of it?
Well I hope it's the first otherwise Sheryl and Ranka will need LOTS of protection... :heh:
Anyway the most important thing is that music doesn't disable or make them running away and this is quite a problem.

Jimmy C

2008-05-27, 11:45

ipernorris

2008-05-27, 13:05

For one thing, the Vajra aren't attracted every time Ranka sings. They didn't appear everytime she's been seen to sing "Aimo". Or at her new gig as a singing carrot.
To get a reaction from the Vajra, if indeed they do react to her[/i], she needs to do something more than just sing.
The Vajra are clearly attracted by songs and music in general, it's clearly shown in the series. I don't see what's the problem in Vajra not appearing evreytime or where I wrote the Vajra react only to her...

cerrian

2008-05-27, 13:44

The Vajra are clearly attracted by songs and music in general, it's clearly shown in the series. I don't see what's the problem in Vajra not appearing evreytime or where I wrote the Vajra react only to her...

Actually, it is quite questionable as to whether the Vajra are reacting to songs and music in general or they are reacting to Ranka projecting her voice/emotions. From what we've seen so far, it points to the latter. In the last 8 episodes there are only 3 instances of the Vajra reacting to an outside influence:

1. Ep 2 - Ranka's scream when Alto copes a feel. It distracts the red Vajra enough for Ozma to kill it.

2. Ep 2 - Ranka singing to herself as she passes Sheryl in front of SMS's facilities. The Vajra that were hiding in the foundation of one of the other islands react and head towards Ranka's position.

3. Ep 5 - Ranka singing at the mall causes the 'dead' red Vajra from ep 2 to be revived.

The first point contradicts the theory that songs and music must be the medium to cause a reaction in the Vajra. All we really know is that Ranka is somehow able to provoke a reaction in the Vajra and that there is likely a maximum distance to her sphere of influence.

If that wasn't enough to twist our minds about, we also have to consider ep 7 where Sheryl's earring acted as a conduit across space for the Infinity song to be heard by Alto and Beara. Was the presence of the earring alone sufficient enough for the song to transverse across space like that? or did Ranka's presence play a role in how the song was transmitted? Also, if Ranka was a significant factor why did it appear as if the only ones who heard the song were Alto and Beara....what about the Vajra in the nearby vicinity?

ipernorris

2008-05-27, 14:19

If that wasn't enough to twist our minds about, we also have to consider ep 7 where Sheryl's earring acted as a conduit across space for the Infinity song to be heard by Alto and Beara. Was the presence of the earring alone sufficient enough for the song to transverse across space like that? or did Ranka's presence play a role in how the song was transmitted? Also, if Ranka was a significant factor why did it appear as if the only ones who heard the song were Alto and Beara....what about the Vajra in the nearby vicinity?
Well there are no final evidence about Vajra beings sensible to song energy in general or to Ranka only, you're right about that, anyway what I was pointing out mainly is that the music doesn't do a shit to the typical Vajra, so I don't see how they can defeat the Vajra using music because Macross is a series where the music is the strongest thing.

iamandragon

2008-05-28, 01:04

I get it! Vajra in Macross F are VF and pilots captured by aliens! Look at episode 7--the VF are turned into the hybid mode between robot and plane, which resembles the red vajra. The small vajra are normal fighter and pilots captured. Does that mean a humanoid vajra is going to show up soon?

ReddyRedWolf

2008-05-28, 03:44

Er... No that was Brera Stern and his VF-27.

All this Protoculture talk in the openings makes me think that Macross Frontier is dealing with Protoculture remnants.

Supposedly the Protoculture are extinct, the Zentradi, humans and other humanoid races like the Zolan are their decendants and next evolution by default.

Though we know that the Protoculture ended as a civilization when the Protodevlin and their Supervision Army came to be, prior to that we know that they had a civil war, creating the Zentradi and as a precaution seeded colony worlds, like Earth and Zola.

Though I'm hoping for an answer to any of the three great Macross mysteries in MF in relation to the Vajra.

1. Where has the Megaroad 1 gone to and what happened it.

2. Where did Sara Nome and Shin Kudo go and what is their fate.

3. What really happened to Mars colony and where did it's personnel go.

iamandragon

2008-05-28, 07:02

Er... No that was Brera Stern and his VF-27.

All this Protoculture talk in the openings makes me think that Macross Frontier is dealing with Protoculture remnants.

Supposedly the Protoculture are extinct, the Zentradi, humans and other humanoid races like the Zolan are their decendants and next evolution by default.

No I'm talking about the red vajras you have already seen in episode 1. Luca was captured in his plane mode, but it ended up in hybid mode when he was tentacle raped, and if he wasn't rescued he will later be injected weird fluids and turn into a beetle like vajra, I'm sure about that.

(Okay mecha is really tainting me...)

ReddyRedWolf

2008-05-28, 07:21

What the heck are you talking about?

It's still a normal VF when Alto busted Luca out of there.

You FAIL at episode memory retention and speculation.

In terms of mass Vajra are bigger and heavier than a VF.

Heck it's bigger than a quadraluun.

Tabris

2008-05-28, 09:03

What the heck are you talking about?

It's still a normal VF when Alto busted Luca out of there.

It was in fighter mode when Luca was captured and GERWALK when Alto found Luca.

Alto transformed into the fighter as it broke free.

Edit: I will admit though that iamandragon's posts aren't really making sense since he seems to be referring to GERWALK mode as a valk/vajra hybrid form even though it's an established valk form and we've seen it plenty of times in Frontier already. But as far as I can see, plane = fighter, robot = battroid and hybrid is GERWALK.

Cadorna

2008-05-28, 09:07

3. What really happened to Mars colony and where did it's personnel go.

Macross official's timeline

2005

August
Withdrawal from Mars Base led by Harry Miler.
September
The third Oberth class space destroyer Tsiolkovsky is hijacked by the Anti-U.N. Military Organization.
September 8
1800: The return fleet from Mars is destroyed with 3055 U.N. forces personnel onboard by this [aforementioned] destroyer's attack.
September 10
Official announcement of the Mars return fleet's destruction by the U.N. Military Headquarters.
September
The U.N. Forces destroy the Anti-U.N. Military Organization's captured space destroyer Tsiolkovsky via an attack with reaction weaponry by Captain Bruno J. Global's space destroyerGoddard. (First use of reaction weaponry in actual combat.)

ReddyRedWolf

2008-05-28, 09:35

It was in fighter mode when Luca was captured and GERWALK when Alto found Luca.

Alto transformed into the fighter as it broke free.

Then iamandragon should have said Gerwalk mode not hybrid.

Also from his speculation he says that the VF and pilot are being turned to Vajra is ridiculous as the Vajra's mass is different from a VF.

A Valkyrie does not have the ridiculousness of Robotech biotech.

It's plain pure mechanical overtechnology.

Luca despite his size is not wimp in a VF.

If he was he wouldn't have passed the SMS's practical tests. As seen with Alto and Pixie squadron.

It is likely that Luca struggled inside the Vajra capital ship transforming into gerwalk mode.

Tabris

2008-05-28, 09:55

Then iamandragon should have said Gerwalk mode not hybrid.

Also from his speculation he says that the VF and pilot are being turned to Vajra is ridiculous as the Vajra's mass is different from a VF.

I edited my post just before you posted, read the edits to my post if you haven't :)

I see where you're coming from though, iamandragon's posts are confusing, but you'll see what I thought he was getting at in my edit.

As for his speculation that the vajra are like the protodeviln in the way they're captured valk pilots, I doubt that.

iamandragon

2008-05-28, 10:58

Then iamandragon should have said Gerwalk mode not hybrid.

Also from his speculation he says that the VF and pilot are being turned to Vajra is ridiculous as the Vajra's mass is different from a VF.

A Valkyrie does not have the ridiculousness of Robotech biotech.

It's plain pure mechanical overtechnology.

Luca despite his size is not wimp in a VF.

If he was he wouldn't have passed the SMS's practical tests. As seen with Alto and Pixie squadron.

It is likely that Luca struggled inside the Vajra capital ship transforming into gerwalk mode.

Well sorry for not knowing the Macross terminology...

I know the chances of a Gerwalk VF turning into a Vajra is little, but they look so alike it's hard not to imagine it...

What I'm imagining is that the Vajra race captures VF, inject some kind of micro-organism which multiplies over the VF and take over their electronics system, which later morphs into a Vajra fighter(red)...combine that with the human shape light in episode 5 is the spirit of the human trapped in electronics-taking-over microorganisms reviving...

Okay I admit I'm kind of crazy...

Cadorna

2008-05-28, 11:05

^ This isn't Ghost in the Shell ;)

ReddyRedWolf

2008-05-28, 11:52

^ This isn't Ghost in the Shell ;)

On that except for a virtual idol that hacks the SDF Macross, X-9 Ghost, and hypnotizing millions in Macross city.:eyespin:

hypochondriac

2008-05-30, 22:52

Some group in frontier know more then their telling. I'm not sure if it's possible but could the vajras be an human experiment gone wrong? That could explain what happened in the 9th episode.

ipernorris

2008-05-31, 04:01

Some group in frontier know more then their telling. I'm not sure if it's possible but could the vajras be an human experiment gone wrong? That could explain what happened in the 9th episode.
Yeah episode 9 gives out clear evidence that there is some party within humantradi which is raising Vajra. For what reason? As weapons I guess.

ReddyRedWolf

2008-05-31, 05:04

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c111/ReddyRedWolf/zolansnake.jpg
Zolan Snakes
Almost all Zolans can be seen to have wrapped around their necks a strange three-eyed snake. These snakes are light tan in color and feature a large central eye, and two regular eyes beneath them. They are intelligent and speak their own language, which most Zolans can understand. They are friendly and are generally asleep around the neck of the Zolan carrying them. Incidentally, these creatures can read and understand the ancient writings on Zola (ancient Protoculture script).

Critter at ep 8
http://s26.photobucket.com/albums/c111/ReddyRedWolf/th_creature.jpg (http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c111/ReddyRedWolf/creature.jpg)

Now if the Vajra baby having three eyes is any indication.

The Vajra could be a Protoculture experiment like the Zolan snake.

Also besides the Vajra ther one other creature that can achieve space fold by iitself. Which also migrates to planet Zola once a year.

http://s26.photobucket.com/albums/c111/ReddyRedWolf/th_spacewhale1.jpg (http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c111/ReddyRedWolf/spacewhale1.jpg)http://s26.photobucket.com/albums/c111/ReddyRedWolf/th_spacewhale.jpg (http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c111/ReddyRedWolf/spacewhale.jpg)
Galaxy Whales (Vahla Ena)
The Galactic Whales, officially referred to as the Vahla Ena are massive spacefaring creatures comprised of energy and flesh all in one creature. These creatures are presently being studied by the Galactic Academy on Earth, and from research posts on the planet Zola where they migrate to every year. Pink in color, and glowing with stored energy the galactic whales are capable of not only travel in space at sublight speeds, but are also capable to jump to hyperspace; a feat impossible to any other living creature in the galaxy. Galactic whales appear in many ways to resemble and respond like the whales of Earth, even emitting whale song. However, for a beast that is over a kilometer long, the whale song of the Vahla Ena can be devastating to the electronics of nearby ships and mecha causing them to short out or even explode, although a pinpoint barrier will shield a mecha or ship from their song.
Furthermore, the song shorts out all combat computers and sensors while in range. They are intelligent and can differentiate between friend and foe; protecting allies from their damaging song.

The planet Zola holds a special significance for the whales as they travel their every year drawing energy from Zola's sun as they leave orbit. Traveling in a large herd with an enormous, even by galactic whale standards, white galactic whale leading the herd the sight is awesome to behold. Little was known as to the reasons behind the Whales traveling to Zola every year until it was discovered that a Whale cemetery exists on the planet where whales that have lived for 7,000 years go to die. Although it would appear that the whales die in a swirl of energy and color the truth is that they are achieving rebirth by giving their energy so that new young Whales are born into the herd. The only whale that doesn't go to the cemetery to die/be reborn, is the white whale which is believed to be millions of years old, and 8 times the size of the other whales, it also is aesthetically different from the others as well.
Sadly the whales are a target for poachers who crave the bodies of the whales to use for starship fuel and for use in fold drives, as they create a smoother and more efficient engine. However, on the flipside the whales have healing properties. As they pass the planet Zola bacteria from the whales enters the atmosphere of Zola. To a non-native of Zola this would be a bad thing if the bacteria got into a wound of some description unless it was properly healed, however near to the whale cemetery the springs and river nearby have minor healing abilities due to the whales bacteria and energy. As the whales are fold capable they can potentially be found anywhere in the galaxy, but the one place they are always guaranteed to be seen is Zola.

Native Home : Space
Size (Length) : 1200 meters
Size (Height) : 100 meters Numbers : 30+ (travel as part of a herd)
Movement : Sublight & Fold capable

ReddyRedWolf

2008-06-08, 16:52

url]http://youtube.com/watch?v=VJT_WrZmLlY[/url]
I was always wondering why in Macross M3 game intro Moaramia Jenius, Max and Millia's adopted daughter, was blasting bugs with her Variable Glaug.

I knew New Asia from the galaxy sourcebook that New Asia was a Protoculture ruin planet.

New Asia There are Protoculture ruins on this world, and UN Spacy built a biological weapons base nearby. UN Spacy sent the Dancing Skulls unit to destroy the base in 2022, after it was deemed a biohazard.

New info I got.

M3 Episode 4 Black Celebration

* Invasion of the Secret Relics Base
o The Dancing Skull special forces team destroy an abandoned UN Forces biological weapons research base at the site of Protoculture ruins on the planet New Asia, after the base is deemed a biohazard.

If UN Spacy found a planet where they can use Protoculture tech to create giant bug weapons then I have this hypothesis.

Vajra are the finished product of the Protoculture from that research on New Asia.

We also know the Proculture were in Zola too where space whales, natural space folders, reside.

Space fold techniques which the Protoculture borrowed from the space whales.

Only for the planet Zola to targeted for it's regenerating spiritia , thanks to the space whales, by the Protodevlin's Supervision Army.

Also the rocks in floating Mayan rocks Macross Zero were a bit purple inside , having the spiral engraved on them.

The spiral is also present with the Birdman and the Vajra.

The space fold dislocation defying stones or crystals are the more refined materials of the rocks.

The Birdman being closer to firepower to a Evil Series which the Protodevlin stole.

Why does Ranka affect the Vajra better than Sheryl? If they are decendants of Mao Nome.

The answer was revealed in Macross 7. The Protoculture ruins of planet Lux does not only react to Anima Spiritia but certain protocols were activated due to Mylene Jenius, daughter of Max and Millia, being a human-Zentradi hybrid.

In Macross Zero it was pointed out humanity was an experiment. If humans became violent space faring species the Birdman was to destroy them.

If the various children of the Protoculture, the Zentradi, Meltrandi, humans and Zolans started mingling their gene pool then the experiment is considered a success. (There are fleets wholely composed of Zentrandi or Meltrandi. Some Bodol size fleets are fighting each other on gender lines based on the original civil war. While Bodol Zer's fleet, which also had females but segragated, was more of Protoculture compromised response against the Protodevlin and their Supervision Army. That why they had violent and fearful responses to Sivil as it was programed to their genes.)

Hybrids like Ranka is granted dominion over their creations.

squaresphere

2008-06-09, 11:27

ReddyRedWolf

2008-06-09, 11:45

Well i'm not so sure it's just hybrids. If that was the case then Micheal should have dominion too ;)

The fact that ep 10 had Ozma state some lines that would conclude that Ranka and Mao may a blood relationship. From M0 we found out that only people with a certain genetic make up could really activate the birdman and have access to the "songs".

Ok hybrids with the capacity to use song energy.

Well the Mayan people is supposed to be closer genetically to the Protoculture Birdman.

Though humans evolved from primates where Zolans evolved from marsupials.

Both were genetically seeded races.

Here is what we know one group of Protoculture seeded Earth but never came back.

Another called the Anima Spiritia sealed the Protodevlins on Varuta and set up an archive of their history on Lux.

Basara's song energy made ruins rise while Mylene's blood activated the Protoculture message.

Ranka has the most desired characteristics. The Nome priestess blood, Anima Spiritia and Zentradi heritage signifying peace.

AVPlaya

2008-06-10, 00:15

Being a Tibetan Buddhist, I'll tell ya that seeing the word Vajra used on these murderous beings just felt really, really wrong, but it's not the first time Japanese anime used religious symbols or words in a manner which could be consider sacrilegious. Oh well :(

Vajra means diamond, and it's mostly referring to a staff-like weapon which symbolizes the strength and firmness Vajrayana Buddhism, a powerful and direct way of attaining enlightenment. It would take other Buddhist paths several cycles (a cycle is a unit of time between Big Bangs) to become Enlightened, but in Tantric or Vajrayana (Path of the Diamond) Buddhism, it's possible to achieve Enlightenment within one life time. One of the most famous protector deity associated with the Vajra is Vajrapani. As you can see he's one bad mother:

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/6915/vajrapa1kq9.jpg

I don't know if original meaning of the word Vajra can help us understand what these things are, but I have a feeling that perhaps they are not such simple bad guys. Vajra is also used as symbol of forceful victory over ignorance, so perhaps we'll see a pretty boy/girl Vajra Master who's in control of the lot of them who claim to have a great, moral reason behind their destructive paths. Then he/she will fall in love with one of our main charas and everyone will be friend at the end. Just like the original series... kinda.

nines

2008-06-10, 00:19

It could be that the name Vajra was chosen for a reason we still arnt aware why the SMS gave them the name Vajra but it probably will link around the actions they where going apon in the begining. For all we know the vajra could be controlled by a Buddhist or something like that and hes using this as his cycle thingy. Or something related to that matter highly doubtful but its another course that could be taken o.o

ReddyRedWolf

2008-06-10, 04:13

Diamonds hello those purple gems which Sheryl and Mr. Viller have and Grace wants from Leon.

But hey it could be an odd reference by the writers to Basara of Macross 7.

Basara being a a word derived from Vajra.

"The late medieval terms basara and kabukimono are originally based on the Sanskrit term vajra (kongo, kongoseki). Kongoseki, which means "diamond," signifies that which can pulverize anything, and has long been used to describe the destruction of preconceived ideas, a tendency also closely related to kabukimono. Kabukimono signifies an individual who takes pleasure in shocking other people with his unusual behavior and appearance, and is similar in meaning to basara."

Vajra = All powerful/ destruction of preconceived ideas, Basara = one who takes pleasure in shocking people with his unusual behavior/ appearance, and BASARA is connected to VAJRA.

Citation: http://www3.ocn.ne.jp/~tenmyoya/text/text.html

Also as a word play on kabukimono, who is the kabuki actor in Frontier.:heh:

Wesley84

2008-06-22, 00:47

*Cough* The Vajra are the UN Spacy's first attempt at creating a race ala the Protoculture! It's one I haven't heard before, but you know they'd try it if they could get away with it.

ipernorris

2008-06-22, 01:45

*Cough* The Vajra are the UN Spacy's first attempt at creating a race ala the Protoculture! It's one I haven't heard before, but you know they'd try it if they could get away with it.
Uhm I think Vajra are an indipedent faction, if you can call them that, but they have the interesting ability to make limitless folding. Define that ability interesting isn't even fair: in a conflict the side which has it has an automatic win.

Wesley84

2008-06-22, 02:26

Uhm I think Vajra are an indipedent faction, if you can call them that, but they have the interesting ability to make limitless folding. Define that ability interesting isn't even fair: in a conflict the side which has it has an automatic win.

I didn't see anything particularly fearsome from them in episode seven.

ipernorris

2008-06-22, 03:20

I didn't see anything particularly fearsome from them in episode seven.
Yeah you're right a battlecruiser which can fold out right under your ass anytime isn't fearsome. :cool:

Wesley84

2008-06-22, 04:01

Yeah you're right a battlecruiser which can fold out right under your ass anytime isn't fearsome. :cool:

Evidently it isn't.

Terra

2008-06-22, 04:45

It is if you don't when and where they're going to come at you. Knowing they could fold right on top of Island 1 isn't a comforting thought when you have all those people on it and it's bypassed pretty much all your defenses. They were lucky only the one ship came. But then we don't know what's controlling the Vajra and what their thinking is.

ipernorris

2008-06-22, 23:39

Wesley84

2008-06-22, 23:51

Finally someone realized what I meant. :)

And yet, somehow if it's not minaturized enough for a VF to use, it'll be completely useless. :rolleyes:

ipernorris

2008-06-23, 04:40

And yet, somehow if it's not minaturized enough for a VF to use, it'll be completely useless. :rolleyes:
Oh a battlecruiser popping up right over your colony anytime is useless? Why? :confused:

ReddyRedWolf

2008-06-23, 05:50

Heh Poping up within defense lines is Basara's specialty with a giant speaker pod via a fold booster.

Chlore though she was f*cked when Basara had that penetrate the bridge.

They thought it was a dud then musoc and this guy appears on the screen.

So you see instantly folding is quite devastating.

Another instance is that crazy Quamzin betting how many ships would collide once they defolded.

pkang0327

2008-07-09, 23:22

My hypothesis is that the Vajira were created by humans. The research fleet was doing some shady research and something went wrong.

squaresphere

2008-07-10, 08:39

^considering that the Vajra have technology beyond what the humantradi have, I some how don't think they "made" the vajra.

Although I'd say that they might have found a previously passive life form and try to modify them for military purposes.

Uncreative

2008-07-11, 00:23

I find it improbable for such an advanced lifeform to be the product of humanity when the combined might of human+zendadi military can barely match the ferocity of the Vajra war machine. But somehow, it seems odd that the Vajra queen seems to have empathy for humans despite their apparent aggression. She has sympathies for Ranka in particular. Perhaps it is not the Vajra that initiated the fight that destroyed 117th research fleet. From the activities of Grace, Bera, and Leon; there might be someone or some group that seeks to increase Vajra/human hostility. But for what purpose?

Neverthless, i'm still getting Ender's Game vibes from this show

zalem

2008-07-11, 18:45

I'm betting they are creatures created by the Protoculture. The research fleet ran into them and starting capturing some of them (hence the specimen on Global) and experimenting on them. Vajra had enough and attacked the fleet. Or it could be as Uncreative suggested, that a third party (Grace Faction) got involved and instigated things. They certainly are instigating things at the moment, so it wouldn't be surprising if they turn out to be the ones that started all this. I find it strange that the data on Global was deleted recently. Probably by Brera or Grace. That looks like they are trying to cover their tracks.

Key Board

2008-07-11, 21:47

Ranka's song is not human in origin

Tak

2008-07-12, 01:13

My not so accurate 6 sense tells me that these creatures were experimented upon because some in the research fleet thought they could control them.

But, just because some Zentradi are pacified does not mean the same would go for all offsping of Protoculture.

- Tak

squaresphere

2008-08-01, 09:12

Figured this thread should be bumped after ep 17.

So now we know that Vajra are adaptive creatures with it comes to their armor.

Also that they seem to communicate via fold waves.

Uncreative

2008-08-01, 12:46

I personally can't wait to see Ai-kun metamorphosize into the small-form mecha. We know very little about the Vajria life-cycle save that they come from eggs laid by a queen. I just want to know how a cute green fuzzy larva transforms into a spacefaring mecha size insectoid:D.

SoldierOfDarkness

2008-08-01, 13:34

I always wondered.

With these types of enemies that evolve and adapt, does that mean eventually they'll become invincible since they'll adapt to whatever types of weaponry that exists?

magnuskn

2008-08-01, 13:36

Westlo

2008-08-01, 14:00

That's enough fuel to power a fleet of Varja, Ai-kun will turn into a capital ship if he eats those!

Ottocycle

2008-08-01, 14:26

Kind of interesting how Ai-kun tore up the paper plane. I guess I've come late to the fact that they seem to have a hivemind sentience. Him jumping at Alto in ep17 might seem cute, but it's probably his only way of attack? I don't understand why would he want to tear paper outta nowhere though, besides being a reference to the current human-Vajra state of affairs.

Also do those little arm-things appear at will? For example we don't see them when he unzips the bag on his own in ep16.

squaresphere

2008-08-01, 14:28

What I'm wondering is why the Vajra became "weak" again if they were protoculture creations?

Ok so we know they're adaptive to the weapons used on them. Well if they were created during the time of the Protoculture wouldn't have they have faced extremely power weapons? At very least the massed produced tech the Zentradi used.

Hmmm actually maybe they haven't become weaker then. They were shown to be extremely powerful in ep 1 against the conventional weapons NUNS and SMS were using. Those would have to be at least equivalent to what the old mass produced Zentradi weapons were.

What's kinda interesting in that aspect is maybe the humantradi are getting much closer to where the protoculture were technology wise before their collapse.

CaptGloval

2008-08-02, 07:13

^I think they haven't encountered the reaction weapon before. The Zentradi lost the tech thousands of years ago. Only the Protoculture must've had it but didn't use it against the Vajra, and it's a thousands-year gap before the humans reverse-engineered their own.

Wesley84

2008-08-02, 13:39

I think they adapt on case by case basis according to their enemy, it's technology, and it's tactics. It's not like they actually change or become more powerful, they just use specific countermeasures. Like, the way their new armor worked was kind of like an Apollo space capsule, where the heat-shield is worn away gradually to the tune of expected resistance. More powerful nukes, or another volley probably would have had results.

There's also probably drawbacks to using the countermeasures. Certainly the Victors seemed to have lost a bit in firepower, their redundancy seemed to have dropped, and possibly even a loss in speed.

At least I hope so. It'd be unfortunate for the Vajra to fallback on the adaptation brainbug that's overwhelmingly prevalent in sci-fi races. Unfortunate, but not really surprising.

SoldierOfDarkness

2008-08-02, 17:06

But don't these types of adaptations simply tack on as they go along? So if they were faced with bullets, their carapace hardens, with missiles they hardened even more, etc. So if you went back to bullets they would've already adapted to them in the first place.

Deckker

2008-08-03, 04:03

ipernorris

2008-08-03, 04:10

There is certainly a reasonable limit in this regards.
Its more likely that they have a limit to the amount of resistance they can develop, and after several generations it would fade away as there was not a need for it anymore.

If they evolved without limit, the protoculture race would basically made the ultimate weapon already.
You're making too much assumptions... we don't know if they don't have a self destruct code. We know Vajra communicate through fold waves and they're a collective: if the Vajra were made by Protoculture I think it would be utterly stupid to not consider the possibility of a rebellion so some kind of self destruct/deactivation code should exist.

CaptGloval

2008-08-03, 05:14

I believe that's why Grace and co. liked the fold wave stuff they're getting from Ranka. Might be the way to hack into the Vajra.

squaresphere

2008-08-03, 08:18

Heck for all we know the Vajra could have been what actually killed off the last of the protoculture. We know that the Anima Spirtia eventually sealed away the protodevlin but we have no idea what kind of shape they were left in afterward. They still had to deal with rampaging zentradi and all the remnants of the supervision army.

It could have been in their rush to make new weapons to fight the later, they forgot to put limits on the vajra and they just ended up turning on them.

Prov1

2008-08-04, 10:21

Sorry if this has been said, but after what happened in episode 17 there is no doubt that Ai Kun is a special version of Vajra. I think Vajras are programmed or trained to attack planes. Ai kun was murdering that paper airplane.

C.A.

2008-08-04, 10:32

We don't know whether Ai-kun is special or not, since all the eggs we've seen hatched, look exactly like him. He could just be a regular Vajra young or along with all the eggs hatched, a new version. He's not unique in form, or have anything special. The only thing special is that it made contact with Ranka.

squaresphere

2008-08-04, 12:19

The plane thing is instinctual. Something flying at it and it's scared. That and if the protoculture made the vajra just acting a plane shape wouldn't make sense. Most of then Zentradi vehicles were humanoid shaped other their cap ships.

What I did love what that Ai used his tail to knock the plane down. Reminded of how the Yellows use their tail to attack the cockpits of the VFs.

C.A.

2008-08-04, 12:36

Well, they mentioned in the anime that Vajra are able to spread battle information wirelessly to each other(maybe through fold transmissions) and keep the entire race updated. Ai-kun may also have recieved transmissions and is wary of planes.

When Ai-kun tore up the plane, it wasn't really expressing as much instinctive self-defence as it was expressing pure hatred for the harmless plane lol. It was sinister and cute at the same time.

Wesley84

2008-08-04, 15:14

I'm sure it works both ways. *Imagines Victors raiding campus locker rooms in search of panties*

squaresphere

2008-08-05, 12:53

I just had a thought... could the Vajra be domesticated?

Sure Ranka is special, but she does seem to have Ai-kun pretty well under control...

cerrian

2008-08-05, 13:04

I just had a thought... could the Vajra be domesticated?

Sure Ranka is special, but she does seem to have Ai-kun pretty well under control...

I assume that was what the 117th fleet tried to do to some degree and look at what happened to them.

MFSxA

2008-08-05, 13:09

I think Ai-Kun's pretty harmless atm, probably it would change in the future. Imagine big bad Ai-Kun. I don't think Ai-Kun would be easily controllable by then.

I'd be surprised if Ai-Kun would still be cute after the pup turns into a wolf. He'd be a fierce looking bug.

Domesticated, that's a probability. It seems Ranka's voice is some sort of a communication and control tool. Therefore there is a way to control/domesticate the Vajra.

If the Vajra is her people (she being the queen) I take it she wouldn't be pleased that her people are domesticated. ;)

Edit: There's this game, Mass Effect, in the storyline the Rachni (hivemind bugs) were exterminated. There were surviving queens though, and through their songs they could teach their children with the songs of the universe, and promised the hero (assuming you let them live) to teach their children peace. Those who were not taught the songs of the universe, the new Rachni queens asked the hero that they be exterminated. So may be Ranka needs to teach them the songs of peace? Hmmm...were the devs fans of Basara? lol

ipernorris

2008-08-06, 00:12

I imagine Ranka going around inside Frontier on top of Ai-kun, the first domesticated red Vajra of history... :heh:
It would be quite a formidable bodyguard!

The Sandman

2008-08-10, 23:16

I imagine Ranka going around inside Frontier on top of an Ai-kun that looks exactly the same as he does now, except fifty times bigger. It would be terrifyingly cute and cutely terrifying.

encia

2008-08-11, 09:16

I imagine Ranka going around inside Frontier on top of Ai-kun, the first domesticated red Vajra of history... :heh:
It would be quite a formidable bodyguard!

An episode of Mai-HIME in Macross Frontier? Ranka's Vajra vs other Vajras.

encia

2008-08-11, 09:23

encia

2008-08-11, 09:26

Prov1

2008-08-11, 10:23

Well, Ranka gave a plane shaped biscuit to Ai-Kun....

self explanatory as to why he ate it.

Tabris

2008-08-11, 12:15

I wonder what Vajra taste like

Wesley84

2008-08-11, 12:41

I wonder what Vajra taste like

Probably like cermanics, computer chips, and snythetic fibers.

Mughi

2008-08-13, 18:56

Well, they mentioned in the anime that Vajra are able to spread battle information wirelessly to each other(maybe through fold transmissions) and keep the entire race updated. Ai-kun may also have recieved transmissions and is wary of planes....

Meaning, I suppose, that little cute Ai-kun can withstand a nuclear attack...? :D

Key Board

2008-08-15, 19:43

I wonder what Vajra taste like

lightning flavored diamonds

I'm serious.

encia

2008-08-16, 07:23

You're making too much assumptions... we don't know if they don't have a self destruct code. We know Vajra communicate through fold waves and they're a collective: if the Vajra were made by Protoculture (SNIP).

Note the Vajra ‘s spiral markings and compare it to Macross Zero's Birdman.

G1Ace

2008-08-16, 07:46

I wonder about the vajra
they seem to have a hive mentality
they have queens and drones
my guess is, they have three common stages:
ai kun (stage I)
little green walker (stage II)
big yellow wave thingies (stage III)
The reason they digress from this point is that the stage III vajra seem to have capabilities for own conscious thought, as exhibited by their going to the ranka concert, while more evolved vajra generally just mindlessly attack

From this point they could either digress into different paths, meaning once they become one of the following they stick to that forever, or they go into a pathway and continue growing untill they finally become a mothership/queenship. My guess is the former, having an enormous amount of transport carriers and motherships is ineffective, no simple work can be done for the queen.

One is the attack path, which consists of:
The simple drone (the small attackers)
Main attack force (red guys)
Transport Carriers (the attack creatures)
Mothership/queenship (the really really big one)
The other would be the command path, which consists of the
Queen

Wesley84

2008-08-18, 01:08

http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/1345/aikunhs6.jpg

They're apparently warmblooded. Or at least Ai-kun was warm enough to leave a noticeable trail behind him.

ellifeedn

2008-08-24, 07:24

ReddyRedWolf

2008-08-24, 07:40

(original question)Do Vajra have defenses against their own kind?

This brought up two more specific questions: are Vajra hides strong enough to resist the energy beams that they use? and do they have ways to deal with individuals who stray from the hive and attack their own kind?

No Vajra has harmed another unless you count Ranka as a Vajra.:heh:

We know that they have energy converting armor like Valkyries.

ECA makes the Valkyrie's armor as tough or tougher than tank armor.

You know I wonder if the Vajra would be in dispute Space Whales.

Probably not as seen in Macross Dynamite 7 that they are important to an evironment of one planet why not several?

Since Space Whales are natural space fold creatures wonder if they can interfere with Vajra communications.

CaptGloval

2008-08-25, 10:42

Back in ep 17, after the knowledge that the Vajra has evolved and rendered useless most weapons Frontier forces were currently using, GAR Ozma cut a limb off a Red Vajra and threw that limb back at said Vajra to finish it off.

I've posted this theory a while back that Vajra was derived/created from the study of Space Whales.

LordPhat

2008-09-08, 20:27

Wesley84

2008-09-08, 21:15

Looking at episode 22 it raises some questions about the origin of the Vajra. It seems like their "home" is an Earth-like world. However, has anyone noticed that every other nest they found was in an abandoned ship?? What gives?

The little flashbacks Ranka has in the field are probably from that planet. Makes you wonder if Ranka was created by the Vajra or the Research Fleet, doesn't it?

Atlantis_Lux

2008-09-09, 01:02

Maybe she was intended to be some sort of hybrid, or whatever. What I do not understand is, if she really was, how they could have lost track of her in that way, as Grace seemed to find her only by chance, on Frontier. :heh:

kilroy0097

2008-09-09, 07:18

The "homeworld" of the Vajra has a big orbiting ring around it that has a symbol on it that resembles very closely the Birdman symbol from Macross Zero. Additionally it looks like a planet similar to earth from appearance. Since the whole point of these Macross colonies is to find worlds that can be inhabited, I bet this one is going to be rather juicy to take a bite out of. Only have to kill a few billion Vajra to do it.

Wesley84

2008-09-13, 15:42

Wouldn't fold jamming work if individuals can only act as part of a greater whole?

Paul Hausser

2008-09-14, 00:17

Wesley84

2008-09-14, 00:26

How quaint. The Vajira, with their remarkable abilities in fold operations, as well as their hive mind, do remind me of the Tyranids. Shadow in the Warp also has massive effect on space travel.

Thankfully, no one has decided to plagiarize Genestealers. That would be downright nasty.

It's not that bad. At least the Nids have brains and can operate instinctional even in their most basic forms. The Vajra should stop functioning completely if one is cut off from the rest.

mechabao

2008-09-14, 00:38

How quaint. The Vajira, with their remarkable abilities in fold operations, as well as their hive mind, do remind me of the Tyranids. Shadow in the Warp also has massive effect on space travel.

Thankfully, no one has decided to plagiarize Genestealers. That would be downright nasty.

The closest thing to that would probably be the scene where Ai-kun "humps" Ranka in the park back in episode 21.

Paul Hausser

2008-09-14, 01:11

The closest thing to that would probably be the scene where Ai-kun "humps" Ranka in the park back in episode 21.

Well, Ranka would be immune to such things anyway.

And the only thing worse than copying Genestealers would be stealing Chrysalids from UFO. Genestealers need time to multiply. Chrysalids have almost instant effect on the populace they are utilised against, and they "breed" with ferocious speed, provided they have raw material to work with.

Danish78

2008-09-15, 04:11

And all that will nicely lead to yet another "theme" commonly seen, not only in anime, but in other works of fiction as well - that man's greatest enemy is man himself. That the Galaxy is a melting pot of corporate interests, cutthroat robber barons even, is quite strongly implied, and that strengthens the aforementioned cliche.

Indeed. The Vajra are turning out to be the latest species mankind has set on exploiting and/or wiping out. A peaceful resolution (taming/coexistence/ they go their own way) would be an ending more in line with the Macross franchise.

Wesley84

2008-09-15, 04:51

Well, based on what Leon says, Vajra is pretty damn evil. It's basically just using Ranka and being a dick for the hell of it.

Paul Hausser

2008-09-15, 04:54

Well, based on what Leon says, Vajra is pretty damn evil. It's basically just using Ranka and being a dick for the hell of it.

Whatever Leon Mishima says should be taken with a huge bag of salt. To say the man is duplicitious would be a compliment.

Anh_Minh

2008-09-15, 04:57

And do you believe Leon?

Wesley84

2008-09-15, 05:04

And do you believe Leon?

I see no reason why he'd lie to Alto. Or Mr. Briller for that matter. Thankfully the authorities don't seem to have taken a particular interest in the love triangle, and I'd say it's too late to start now. Bullshitting Alto, a lowly fighter pilot, would serve no purpose whatsoever, and hopefully Leon is too busy to do so just to be a dick.

He might be wrong about Vajra, but considering what little we know about it, and it's behavior in this last episode, it's what I'm going on right now.

Anh_Minh

2008-09-15, 05:14

Precisely because we know so little about them, "they've been using Ranka for whatever" is going out on a limb a bit. If anyone's used Ranka against another species, here, it's Leon.

The Vajra may or may not be nefarious, and they may or may not be using Ranka to their ends... but we have damn little to determine that. And Leon's speeches do not qualify as evidence.

Wesley84

2008-09-15, 05:21

Precisely because we know so little about them, "they've been using Ranka for whatever" is going out on a limb a bit. If anyone's used Ranka against another species, here, it's Leon.

Yes, I don't see how Vajra is using Ranka in a way to undermine Humantradi in any particular way. Besides maybe the proliferation of Moe. On the other hand, why lie to Alto about it? He already thinks Ranka is a traitor, and probably delievered the news to the authorities himself personally, and it simply seems more likely that Leon is giving his honest opinion, as a PR campaign to smear Ranka and Vajra would not involve a personal meeting with Alto.

The Vajra may or may not be nefarious, and they may or may not be using Ranka to their ends... but we have damn little to determine that. And Leon's speeches do not qualify as evidence.

On the contrary. Leon is now President of Frontier, and even if he is a backstabbing, murdering bastard, one would expect him to at least gain an understanding of the enemy their facing. If he says something about Vajra, it's probably based on a logical anaylsis, which is really more to go on than Ranka's gut feelings.

grss1982

2008-09-15, 05:29

Anh_Minh

2008-09-15, 05:32

Yes, I don't see how Vajra is using Ranka in a way to undermine Humantradi in any particular way. Besides maybe the proliferation of Moe. On the other hand, why lie to Alto about it? He already thinks Ranka is a traitor, and probably delievered the news to the authorities himself personally, and it simply seems more likely that Leon is giving his honest opinion, as a PR campaign to smear Ranka and Vajra would not involve a personal meeting with Alto.

On the contrary. Leon is now President of Frontier, and even if he is a backstabbing, murdering bastard, one would expect him to at least gain an understanding of the enemy their facing. If he says something about Vajra, it's probably based on a logical anaylsis, which is really more to go on than Ranka's gut feelings.

"Trust the President, I'm sure he knows what he's doing"? You're really sure you want to go there?

As for why the lie... Why speak to Alto at all? Why did Bilrer ever show him his train collection? As long as we can't answer that, we can't really say "they have no reason to lie".

Heck, maybe Leon is sincerely creeped out by the Vajra's distributed mind, and really does believe everything he said. That would have little to do with "logical analysis".

Wesley84

2008-09-15, 05:56

"Trust the President, I'm sure he knows what he's doing"? You're really sure you want to go there?

And you're assuming this because...?

As for why the lie... Why speak to Alto at all? Why did Bilrer ever show him his train collection? As long as we can't answer that, we can't really say "they have no reason to lie".

You're right. Alto is a nobody. Or at least should be a nobody as far as Leon is concerned. This isn't Gundam where kitting out Shinn Asuka in Destiny is somehow supposed to make some monumental, meta-physical difference in how the universe plays out. And there's not even a hint that Leon or Briller are thinking along those things.

Out of universe explaination, the writers just wanted to inform the viewers, and connect the scene where Alto says he'll kill Ranka with that information. There are better ways of informing the viewers and Alto without making Alto out to be more important than he actually is, but let's just assume they were lazy before jumping to the conclusion that Alto is somehow special.

Basically, if Leon is lying, he's lying to the viewers, and lying on behalf of the writers and Director, which is a stupid thing to do, and shouldn't impress anybody if that is the case.

Heck, maybe Leon is sincerely creeped out by the Vajra's distributed mind, and really does believe everything he said. That would have little to do with "logical analysis".

He didn't seem creeped out. More arrogant than anything really.

ipernorris

2008-09-15, 06:06

The Vajra may or may not be nefarious, and they may or may not be using Ranka to their ends... but we have damn little to determine that. And Leon's speeches do not qualify as evidence.
People here write such absurd things sometimes I can't believe my eyes... I mean do you need proof to understand the Vajra are hostile towards humanity? Millions of dead bodies and millions of injuried people aren't enough? Who cares about Vajra's reasons and such: they attacked and massacrated people who didn't even know about their existence and this is more than enough to classify them as an enemy to the humantradis thus deserving annihilation or enslavement.
But here people are too busy worshipping Ranka x Alto or Sheryl x Alto. :heh:

Anh_Minh

2008-09-15, 07:08

And you're assuming this because...?
Your own words:
Leon is now President of Frontier, and even if he is a backstabbing, murdering bastard, one would expect him to at least gain an understanding of the enemy their facing. If he says something about Vajra, it's probably based on a logical anaylsis,

You're right. Alto is a nobody. Or at least should be a nobody as far as Leon is concerned. This isn't Gundam where kitting out Shinn Asuka in Destiny is somehow supposed to make some monumental, meta-physical difference in how the universe plays out. And there's not even a hint that Leon or Briller are thinking along those things.

Out of universe explaination, the writers just wanted to inform the viewers, and connect the scene where Alto says he'll kill Ranka with that information. There are better ways of informing the viewers and Alto without making Alto out to be more important than he actually is, but let's just assume they were lazy before jumping to the conclusion that Alto is somehow special.

Basically, if Leon is lying, he's lying to the viewers, and lying on behalf of the writers and Director, which is a stupid thing to do, and shouldn't impress anybody if that is the case.

Let's say Leon has a reason to want to stiffen Alto's spine, so he'll kill Ranka without hesitation. Instead of, you know, talk to her and convince her to come back. Which is pretty much what he's told Luca he'd do. Then that lie makes perfect sense. Sure, he probably ratted her out himself, because he was hurt, confused, and angry. But now that he's cooled down... Can he be trusted to shoot her? But, if the Vajra are using her... Then he's not some kind of jerk for killing the cute girl who had a crush on him, for failing to convince her to say, or convince her to come back. It's not his fault, and it's not hers, either. He doesn't have to talk, he just has to shoot - it's practically a mercy killing. Instead of feeling guilty, he's a hero again, saving a damsel in distress from a fate worse than death. Woo.

That works both in-story and out-of-story. (Except for the bit about Leon giving a damn in the first place.)

He didn't seem creeped out. More arrogant than anything really.
But he went from "distributed mind" to "must kill". Not very rational, to me. So maybe to him, being creeped out translates to genocidal intent. Who knows?

People here write such absurd things sometimes I can't believe my eyes... I mean do you need proof to understand the Vajra are hostile towards humanity? Millions of dead bodies and millions of injuried people aren't enough? Who cares about Vajra's reasons and such: they attacked and massacrated people who didn't even know about their existence and this is more than enough to classify them as an enemy to the humantradis thus deserving annihilation or enslavement.
But here people are too busy worshipping Ranka x Alto or Sheryl x Alto. :heh:

I didn't say they weren't hostile. Note, however, that to a distributed mind like them, killing lots of individuals may be the equivalent of a light slap - a perfectly proportioned response, saying "Don't come here. It's my/our territory".

There's also the problem of "who shot first". I'd have problems calling them evil if the humans came into their homes, destroyed or captured them, and they just defended themselves.

And lastly, the question was whether Ranka is a weapon the Vajra have been using, or plan to use, against humanity. Even accepting the Vajra as the enemy, which admittedly isn't much a stretch, it doesn't mean Ranka is in any way under their control, usable by them.

Paul Hausser

2008-09-15, 07:30

The whole argument reminds me of "Ender's Game", seriously, especially the hive mind vs. individuality problem. Also, do remember how the war between Humans and Taurans happened in Haldeman's "Forever War" - by means of misunderstanding and belligerence on Human side.

Add shadowy machinations courtesy of diese Hure O'Connor, and we might find ourselves mired in a war Galaxy started and Frontier must finish.

Anh_Minh

2008-09-15, 07:31

Yep, we've read the same books.

BetoJR

2008-09-15, 07:43

I've been seeing some parallels to that, myself, for a while, now. Guess we've all read the same books, then. :heh:

ipernorris

2008-09-15, 07:50

I didn't say they weren't hostile. Note, however, that to a distributed mind like them, killing lots of individuals may be the equivalent of a light slap - a perfectly proportioned response, saying "Don't come here. It's my/our territory".
They can have a p2p mind, but it isn't an excuse or a justification to what they did to Frontier...

There's also the problem of "who shot first". I'd have problems calling them evil if the humans came into their homes, destroyed or captured them, and they just defended themselves.

If the Research Fleet made something bad to the Vajra then they deserved to be killed, but this has nothing to do with Frontier. Anyway Ranka said, in episode 23 while remembering the Research Fleet's fall, "evreyone, because of me..."
I fear it all happened with an even along the lines of Ranka being sad about not having a candy and thinking "you hurt me, you mamas are very bad!" and so the Vajra attacked... :heh:
The "Who shot first" problem is irrelevant from Frontier's POV: the Vajra massacrated millions of people so that problem is not important anymore. Ranka can sing Aimo Aimo as much as she likes, but that song isn't going to bring back the lost lifes. Of course this simple consideration would shoot down the entire Macross message of living happily among different species in the universe so this issue won't be taken into account by the authors.

And lastly, the question was whether Ranka is a weapon the Vajra have been using, or plan to use, against humanity. Even accepting the Vajra as the enemy, which admittedly isn't much a stretch, it doesn't mean Ranka is in any way under their control, usable by them.
Ranka is naive at best: she thinks she can bring peace with the two species just with her Aimo Aimo song. The irreparable damage, the millions of lost lifes, has been done and it isn't reversible. Please note that the Vajra doesn't have the concept of "individual" so they don't even notice the death of one of their own...
So the humantradi's toll in this war has been way higher than the Vajra's one.

Anh_Minh

2008-09-15, 08:21

They can have a p2p mind, but it isn't an excuse or a justification to what they did to Frontier...
What I'm trying to explain is that they may not understand what they did. That to them, something like that isn't "irreparable damage".

If the Research Fleet made something bad to the Vajra then they deserved to be killed, but this has nothing to do with Frontier.
Yes, because the human have been making a real effort to distinguish between different Vajras.

Anyway Ranka aid, in episode 23 while remembering the Research Fleet's fall, "evreyone, because of me..."
I fear it all happened with an even along the lines of Ranka being sad about not having a candy and thinking "you hurt me, you mamas are very bad!" and so the Vajra attacked... :heh:
The "Who shot first" problem is irrelevant from Frontier's POV: the Vajra massacrated millions of people so that problem is not important anymore.
Yes. But see, I never said the Vajra and Frontier weren't enemies. I just said it was possible the Vajra weren't evil. Why do I have to look at it only from Frontier's POV?

It's not like the humans have been all that nice. They did go out of their way to destroy Vajra nests. You could turn it around and say there's no way for the Vajra to forgive the humans, either.

Ranka can sing Aimo Aimo as much as she likes, but that song isn't going to bring back the lost lifes. Of course this simple consideration would shoot down the entire Macross message of living happily among different species in the universe so this issue won't be taken into account by the authors.

Ranka is naive at best: she thinks she can bring peace with the two species just with her Aimo Aimo song. The irreparable damage, the millions of lost lifes, has been done and it isn't reversible.

But she's accused of much worse than naivety. She's accused of being a weapon the Vajras have turned against humanity. But where's the proof?

Please note that the Vajra doesn't have the concept of "individual" so they don't even notice the death of one of their own...
So the humantradi's toll in this war has been way higher than the Vajra's one.
We don't know what they do or don't notice. And losing more people (a questionable statement to start with) doesn't make the humans right.

ipernorris

2008-09-15, 08:52

What I'm trying to explain is that they may not understand what they did. That to them, something like that isn't "irreparable damage".

Yes, because the human have been making a real effort to distinguish between different Vajras.

Decide about your own position: when you talk abou the Vajra you say the Vajra may not understand individuality because they are a collective, when you talk about humantradis you say they're bad because they should differentiate between Vajra, beings which are a collective for their own nature. Besides why should human differentiate between Vajra? There hasn't been ONE Vajra who wasn't hostile to humantradis, included the dear Ai-kun.

Yes. But see, I never said the Vajra and Frontier weren't enemies. I just said it was possible the Vajra weren't evil. Why do I have to look at it only from Frontier's POV?

You can use the POV you like but it isn't relevant anymore... at this point the millions of deaths scream revenge over the collective. Even if Vajra have only ONE mind and so ONE will this doesn't change the fact this will acted to massacre the humantradis.

It's not like the humans have been all that nice. They did go out of their way to destroy Vajra nests. You could turn it around and say there's no way for the Vajra to forgive the humans, either.

Well those nice puppies would have go to kill more humantradi's lifes, so those actions were justified.

But she's accused of much worse than naivety. She's accused of being a weapon the Vajras have turned against humanity. But where's the proof?

Ask Leon about that... :heh:
Anyway Ranka's role is irrelevant at this point: what Vajra's had done is plainly unforgivable. Humantradis did some bad things to Vajra as well I believe, but the key difference is that the humantradis which "shot first" were an insignificant part of the whole humantradi's race, while the Vajra, having ONE will, are all guilty of the massacre they're carring out.

Anh_Minh

2008-09-15, 09:26

Decide about your own position: when you talk abou the Vajra you say the Vajra may not understand individuality because they are a collective, when you talk about humantradis you say they're bad because they should differentiate between Vajra, beings which are a collective for their own nature. Besides why should human differentiate between Vajra? There hasn't been ONE Vajra who wasn't hostile to humantradis, included the dear Ai-kun.
The humans didn't know the Vajra were one (in fact, we can't be sure there aren't several swarms which each have their own individuality...) when they wrote the "shoot all the Vajra on sight" policy. All I'm saying is, the humans didn't try any harder than the Vajra to get along.

You can use the POV you like but it isn't relevant anymore... at this point the millions of deaths scream revenge over the collective. Even if Vajra have only ONE mind and so ONE will this doesn't change the fact this will acted to massacre the humantradis.
And the human acted to massacre the Vajra.

Well those nice puppies would have go to kill more humantradi's lifes, so those actions were justified.
And those humans supported, or would have supported, had they grown, a fleet that is apparently bent on the destruction or exploitation of the Vajra.

Ask Leon about that... :heh:
Anyway Ranka's role is irrelevant at this point: what Vajra's had done is plainly unforgivable. Humantradis did some bad things to Vajra as well I believe, but the key difference is that the humantradis which "shot first" were an insignificant part of the whole humantradi's race, while the Vajra, having ONE will, are all guilty of the massacre they're carring out.

Oh? And when have the humans tried to think "Oh, maybe the Vajra have different factions, maybe we were caught by a criminal minority and should appeal to the Vajra authorities to deal with them..." No, it was, from the get go, "them or us". Why would the Vajra think in more complicated terms? Especially since they may have much less experience with such things?

Ithekro

2008-09-15, 13:42

Well. This is Macross.

Human and alien relations as far back as the First Space War.

Millions (to billions) or humans and aliens dead in the exchange. Peace finally had after much suffering and the realization that revenge will only result in more suffering for both sides and probably the extinction of both sides. Peace through the power of song and love if I remember correctly. But also peace because the alternative was death for all involved...genocide.

If this show follows this pattern, then there will be peace after a hard fight with a lot of dead. When the bloodlust of revenge fades, the truth (whatever that may be) will surface. The remains of the Frontier Fleet and the Vajra will have to work together to survive. The alternative is the eratication of all Vajra and/or all humanoid life on Frontier (and Galaxy).

As for Leon and Alto. If Leon has any kind of spy network, he knows that Alto has spend a lot of time with the two singing "weapons". Thus Alto can effect the weapons performance. If Alto attempts to bring Ranka back, this will go against Leon's goals (be that galactic domination or simply saving humanity from the Vajra), thus it seems reasonable that someone in authority would attempt to make Alto's resolve solid on the kill Ranka front. As for Leon lying? He's a politian right? In such a profession, if one is to tell a lie to the entire population, then you had better keep your lies the same even when you are talking to just one lowly individual. It is like a lie that is repeated enough times that people start to believe it, territory.

However the battle will be glorious if we get multiple Macross combat.

EDIT: In the games, were the VF-X prototypes versions of existing fighters rather than entirely new designs?

Anh_Minh

2008-09-15, 14:54

Then, what I want to see in the end: some giant insect in an idol dress singing to humans to successfully pacify them... Why should it always be the humans who get that kind of nice role?

Wesley84

2008-09-15, 15:16

Ranka could always molt. Suddenly realises it's her 18th birthday and then something out of the X-Files happens.

ipernorris

2008-09-16, 04:04

The humans didn't know the Vajra were one (in fact, we can't be sure there aren't several swarms which each have their own individuality...) when they wrote the "shoot all the Vajra on sight" policy. All I'm saying is, the humans didn't try any harder than the Vajra to get along.

The fact they're one mind is irrelevant: they destroyed a potential danger to Frontier because Vajra are the one which attacked frontier first. The fact they're one mind only worsens Vajra's position because it means there aren't any faction within the Vajra but only one will.

And the human acted to massacre the Vajra.

I think you don't know what self defense mean... :rolleyes:
Those Vajra would have grown and go straight to Frontier in order to attack it.

And those humans supported, or would have supported, had they grown, a fleet that is apparently bent on the destruction or exploitation of the Vajra.

Well the Vajra are the enemy so what's so bad about exploiting them taking fold quartz from them? At least they're useful to something...

Oh? And when have the humans tried to think "Oh, maybe the Vajra have different factions, maybe we were caught by a criminal minority and should appeal to the Vajra authorities to deal with them..." No, it was, from the get go, "them or us". Why would the Vajra think in more complicated terms? Especially since they may have much less experience with such things?
So far humans mainly defended themselves from the Vajra: the fact the Vajra have one mind only make all of them the same. They're all guilty of trying to massacre Frontier so they can all be annihilated without the faction problem.

Anh_Minh

2008-09-16, 04:18

The fact they're one mind is irrelevant: they destroyed a potential danger to Frontier because Vajra are the one which attacked frontier first. The fact they're one mind only worsens Vajra's position because it means there aren't any faction within the Vajra but only one will.
And the Vajra were attacked by humans before. Sure, it wasn't Frontier itself. But what do they know? The humans don't try to distinguish between Vajras, why would Vajras try to distinguish between humans?

I think you don't know what self defense mean... :rolleyes:
Those Vajra would have grown and go straight to Frontier in order to attack it.
You don't know that. And even if true... So what? I'm not arguing the humans are wrong. I'm arguing the Vajra are no worse. They're both trying to defend themselves against aliens who don't seem interested in non genocidal conflict resolution.

Well the Vajra are the enemy so what's so bad about exploiting them taking fold quartz from them? At least they're useful to something...

And to the Vajra, the humans are the enemy. What's so bad about shooting them?

So far humans mainly defended themselves from the Vajra: the fact the Vajra have one mind only make all of them the same. They're all guilty of trying to massacre Frontier so they can all be annihilated without the faction problem.
The humans have attacked whenever they could. And the research fleet had Vajra corpses or captives, obviously before its destruction, so I have my doubts on the innocence of humans in the roots of that war.

Paul Hausser

2008-09-16, 04:40

It seems we have a major philosophical difference here. On one side, we have, in my opinion, an attempt to rationalize the Vajira and the reason of their behavior. On the other hand, there is that hardened look that takes "here and now" into consideration, the look many Frontier citizens might adopt. Still, based upon previous experiences with Macross and overall similarity of the situation to, for instance, the aforementioned work by Handelman, I'd say Anh_Minh makes a compelling argument.

ipernorris

2008-09-16, 07:35

And the Vajra were attacked by humans before. Sure, it wasn't Frontier itself. But what do they know? The humans don't try to distinguish between Vajras, why would Vajras try to distinguish between humans?
Frontier's military defended the colony 99% of the time and they went hunting down Vajra only one or two times throught the series, and anyway they were plainly justified because they avoided future attacks to Frontier. So don't make of an exception the rule...

You don't know that. And even if true... So what? I'm not arguing the humans are wrong. I'm arguing the Vajra are no worse. They're both trying to defend themselves against aliens who don't seem interested in non genocidal conflict resolution.

I'm not saying the Vajra are worse: I'm only saying they have only one will so they're all guilty of what they did to Frontier. It's like all humantradis would be all like Grace. That's the big difference between humans and Vajra.

And to the Vajra, the humans are the enemy. What's so bad about shooting them?

Frontier didn't start the hostilities: the fact Vajra doesn't know the meaning of individuality so they don't make any difference between the Research Fleet and Frontier is irrelevant. It's their own problem.

The humans have attacked whenever they could. And the research fleet had Vajra corpses or captives, obviously before its destruction, so I have my doubts on the innocence of humans in the roots of that war.
I don't care about the Research Fleet: I'm talking about Frontier. If Vajra cannot understand the different it's their own problem and it isn't a justification by any way.

4Tran

2008-09-16, 08:58

ipernorris

2008-09-16, 09:06

As far as I can tell, Anh_Minh is right here. If the Vajra can only think of humanity in the way they see themselves, there would be no reason for them take into account the differences between individual humans or fleets for that matter. We don't know what Grace/Macross Galaxy/117th Research Fleet did to them, so all of their actions up to that point may be either a response to what happened previously. Moreover, it's been shown that the Vajra have been unable to communicate with humans, so their taking in Ranka may be both an attempt to understand humanity as well as communicate with them.
I know Anh-Minh is right when he tells about the Vajra being unable to understand the humantradis, in fact I said I don't care for what happened to the Research Fleet. But I added that this is irrelevant and it's by no way a justification to the irreparable damages the Vajra created to Frontier deliberately (lost lifes first of all). While Anh_Minh wants to justify the Vajra saying they're a collective so they don't understand, for me this makes Vajra position even worse: they are ALL responsible for Frontier deaths because they have only ONE will. Like I wrote before it's like humantradis were made by all persons Grace-like.

BetoJR

2008-09-16, 09:23

Anh_Minh

2008-09-16, 09:35

Well, I take intent and knowledge/understanding into account before crying "evil!".

It's true that the Vajra attacked fleets that, on the whole, maybe wouldn't have done anything to them. (Actually, it is a maybe. The complicity between Leon and Grace, and Leon and Bilrer, makes at least possible, if not likely, that they'd have contrived an excuse to harvest Vajra guts anyway.) They certainly killed civilians, babies, and so on.

But, as I've pointed out, they may have a limited understanding of humanity and only sought to protect themselves. And on the whole, they're no worse than the humans. Sure, you could argue that their hivemind makes the humans' (sometimes preemptive) self-defense merely murderous rather than genocidal, but what if they'd had individualities? Do you think the humans would have given a damn? If Alto's any indication, they didn't before figuring it out.

So, in intent, they may be merely defending themselves against proven enemies. And they didn't locate the human's homeplanet, let alone attempt to exterminate all humans on it so they can live there.

ipernorris

2008-09-16, 10:06

The point you're missing, ipernorris, is that, to the Vajra, that's probably very true. "Humantradis" as a whole is trying to subjugate them - so, they fight back. At least, that's exactly what the "good guys" are doing, as well. Isn't it? :eyebrow:
The humantradis (I use this word for not writing evreytime Zentradi and Humans, they're an only thing now btw) want to take the Vajra's homeplanet because the attacks of the bugs made Frontier running out of resources so it's Vajra's fault again.

It's true that the Vajra attacked fleets that, on the whole, maybe wouldn't have done anything to them. (Actually, it is a maybe. The complicity between Leon and Grace, and Leon and Bilrer, makes at least possible, if not likely, that they'd have contrived an excuse to harvest Vajra guts anyway.) They certainly killed civilians, babies, and so on.
You can't know what might have happened if Vajra wouldn't have attacked Frontier first: if we start to speculate then there wouldn't be no end to where we could go with the discussion. We only know that Vajra attacked Frontier first without any good reason: note that "taking Ranka back" or "not being able to understand humantradi's individuality" aren't good reasons at all.

But, as I've pointed out, they may have a limited understanding of humanity and only sought to protect themselves. And on the whole, they're no worse than the humans. Sure, you could argue that their hivemind makes the humans' (sometimes preemptive) self-defense merely murderous rather than genocidal, but what if they'd had individualities? Do you think the humans would have given a damn? If Alto's any indication, they didn't before figuring it out.

If Vajra would have an individuality then faction would have formed, like happened with Zentradi and with the Protodeviln. Individuality, which means different wills, is the reason because of I don't have anything to say against how SDF Macross and Macross 7 ended, even if I didn't like how Gibernich (I don't know how to write it, sorry) ended the war saying "we now know how to create anima spiritia, bye bye".
In Vajra's case it's very different because they have no individuality thus no different wills: the will which decided to exterminate Frontier is one and only one.

So, in intent, they may be merely defending themselves against proven enemies. And they didn't locate the human's homeplanet, let alone attempt to exterminate all humans on it so they can live there.
Vajra have easy life attacking isolated colonies, but they wouldn't stand a chance against ALL of the NUNS fleet. Not to mention that even now their colletive nature is a huge disadvantage because if their fold network is disrupted the single Vajra become useless because they have no brain, unlike other collectives such as the Borg.

Anh_Minh

2008-09-16, 10:15

You can't know what might have happened if Vajra wouldn't have attacked Frontier first: if we start to speculate then there wouldn't be no end to where we could go with the discussion. We only know that Vajra attacked Frontier first without any good reason: note that "taking Ranka back" or "not being able to understand humantradi's individuality" aren't good reasons at all.
Hey, you insist that all Vajra babies will grow up to be human killers, I say that there are clues Leon and others would have contrived a war with the Vajra anyway. (Heck, maybe it's exactly what happened.)

If Vajra would have an individuality then faction would have formed, like happened with Zentradi and with the Protodeviln. Individuality, which means different wills, is the reason because of I don't have anything to say against how SDF Macross and Macross 7 ended, even if I didn't like how Gibernich (I don't know how to write it, sorry) ended the war saying "we now know how to create anima spiritia, bye bye".
In Vajra's case it's very different because they have no individuality thus no different wills: the will which decided to exterminate Frontier is one and only one.
Not my point. You harp on the Vajra for not taking the time to distinguish between human factions and only attacking the "bad" ones. I'm pointing out the humans didn't try either.

Vajra have easy life attacking isolated colonies, but they wouldn't stand a chance against ALL of the NUNS fleet. Not to mention that even now their colletive nature is a huge disadvantage because if their fold network is disrupted the single Vajra become useless because they have no brain, unlike other collectives such as the Borg.

Again, not my point. I'm just showing that the humans are even more aggressive than the Vajra. Sure, you're going to say the Vajra shot first... but that's really not certain.

I'll grant that taking the Vajra homeplanet is more of a result of, well, escalation of the conflict. But we can't know for sure who started the conflict in the first place.

BetoJR

2008-09-16, 10:22

The humantradis (I use this word for not writing evreytime Zentradi and Humans, they're an only thing now btw) want to take the Vajra's homeplanet because the attacks of the bugs made Frontier running out of resources so it's Vajra's fault again.
Actually, we don't know that. And, if you remember, Frontier could be experiencing the attacks of the Vajra ever since the Colonization Fleet first messed with the bugs. So, again, they may be justified in attacking them. My point is: we don't really know all the pieces of the puzzle.

Blaming solely the Vajra for the escalation of the conflict seems a bit short-sighted, to me.

Ithekro

2008-09-16, 12:06

This reminds me of a few Japanese war related anime of the 1970s. You know the ones that end with the destruction (or near-destruction) of the Earth's enemies and but the hero is lementing that they didn't need to have fought because their goals were the same and justified...if only they could have worked together instead, speeches.

Kind of shows the point that in many wars, both sides are in the wrong to some degree and both sides are in the right to some degree. It is a matter of prepective. As seen in this debate, prepectives can cloud facts and make wars worse than they already are. When it turns from simple self-defense into pro-active "let's kill them all, on their lands" it gets ugly. The Vajra may be more complex than we know and have reasons that we don't know yet. Grace and Leon may have more reasons than we know of. The rest of Frontier's population is basically in the crossfire. There has to be a reason for the war. What that reason is will usually solve the problem, or at least give cause to show if one side or the other is justified in its responce.

However the creator of this series may take us in a different direction than we went 25 years ago. Instead of the power of song defeating the enemy by making them friends, it causes them to win (by defeating the humans)..or is used to destroy the enemy in total leaving nothing left to show for it. The planet is destroyed...Frontier gains nothing from this war but bodies and wreckage. Showing the folly of war doesn't sound like the show's premise, but it is possible as a backdrop for the love triangle that dies because of it.

The only thing that would save Frontier at that point would be aid from another colony...finding a new world suddenly....folding back to Earth....or they actually fail.
Or they find the lost first colony ship to bring things full circle.

ipernorris

2008-09-16, 12:09

Hey, you insist that all Vajra babies will grow up to be human killers, I say that there are clues Leon and others would have contrived a war with the Vajra anyway. (Heck, maybe it's exactly what happened.)

Yeah I insist because the Vajra are all the same: they have only ONE will... this is what being a collective means! So I'm not having a prejudice against the Vajra here, because if they're one (and the anime states so and Leon wouldn't have a reason to lie about Vajra's details at this point) and it's a fact.

Not my point. You harp on the Vajra for not taking the time to distinguish between human factions and only attacking the "bad" ones. I'm pointing out the humans didn't try either.

You aren't fair at all toward humantradis here: I mean 99% of the time they made DEFENSIVE fights so they only killed Vajra who were a threat.

Again, not my point. I'm just showing that the humans are even more aggressive than the Vajra. Sure, you're going to say the Vajra shot first... but that's really not certain.

Again with this "who shot first" thing? I said it isn't relevant anymore: as far as we know Frontier didn't know anything about Vajra before they attacked the colony. The fact Vajra doesn't know about individuality isn't a justification as well.

I'll grant that taking the Vajra homeplanet is more of a result of, well, escalation of the conflict. But we can't know for sure who started the conflict in the first place.
Again: this isn't relevant anymore. Vajra inflicted immense damages to Frontier while this colony didn't do anything to them: the fact someone another did some bad things to them (even if we haven't enough information about this) IS NOT A JUSTIFICATION either.

Actually, we don't know that. And, if you remember, Frontier could be experiencing the attacks of the Vajra ever since the Colonization Fleet first messed with the bugs. So, again, they may be justified in attacking them. My point is: we don't really know all the pieces of the puzzle.

Blaming solely the Vajra for the escalation of the conflict seems a bit short-sighted, to me.
That's speculation. We only know that the Research Fleet was annihilated by the Vajra and after that we don't know anything, a part from the fact we're thrown right in the attack Vajra are making on the humans. As far as we know the Research Fleet was the only human fleet which made contact with the Vajra before Frontier and Galaxy.

The rest of Frontier's population is basically in the crossfire. There has to be a reason for the war. What that reason is will usually solve the problem, or at least give cause to show if one side or the other is justified in its responce.

We have already a reason for the war: Grace said, answring mentally to Leon's question "why do we have to suffer so much because of Vajra?", that the Vajra are attacking because human's dream of colonizing planet around the galaxy is an obstacle. In other words: Vajra don't want anybody in their own region of space.

BetoJR

2008-09-16, 12:11

Or they find the lost first colony ship to bring things full circle.
Now, they finding Megaroad 01 or whatever remains of it, would be just AWESOME.

That's speculation.
Right. As opposed to your arguments, which are all based solely on fact, right? :eyebrow:
The fact that we've only been shown the Vajra's attack on the Research Fleet doesn't mean that was the only point of contact. And it doesn't change the very real possibility that they, as a species, are only responding to a previous attack. Just like you defend the populace of Frontier to continue doing, as well. Can't you see this?

And who says you need justification for war? Most of the time, you don't even need a good enough motive...

Ithekro

2008-09-16, 12:43

If the reason for the Vijra fighitng the humans is because the humans are invading their territory...and the humans know this (how?), then wouldn't going around that region be in order? Or at least attempting to go through that space in the quickest possible fashion rather than drag the fleet in and slowly ponder around looking for a place to settle? Perhaps at one time the Vajra were more open to tresspassers and settlers, but now they aren't. Probably because of abuse of their space and/or populations by the Research Fleet (or others if any other human fleets have been in this region before Frontier arrives).

In that light, what the Vajra are doing is border patrol and then attempting to repel an invader...about the same as a human nation would do with a massive military/colonial force wondering onto your continent/country. Imagine if the British arrived someplace right after the First World War with a huge convoy of their people supported by part of the Royal Navy arriving in your territorial waters and didn't communicate with you at all as to what they were doing. Most nations would challenge a force entering their territory. If the Royal Navy destroyed the challengers and then the fleet continues onwards into your harbors, then moves onto a huge train a trucks and cars with tanks and planes escorting them across your country...and they still haven't said a word...wouldn't you try to repel the invaders?

Anh_Minh

2008-09-16, 13:42

Yeah I insist because the Vajra are all the same: they have only ONE will... this is what being a collective means! So I'm not having a prejudice against the Vajra here, because if they're one (and the anime states so and Leon wouldn't have a reason to lie about Vajra's details at this point) and it's a fact.
But the humans didn't know that when they made the decision to clean out nests. As I said, I'm also looking at intents. And the humans never had the intent to distinguish between Vajras, whether there was a distinction to be made or not. Like you, they just assumed that all Vajra would be their enemies. In the end, it turned out that they were right because there was, in fact, only one Vajra. But if they were right, it was by accident!

Also, the Vajra may have speculated that the humans would be their enemies. And hey, guess what? They were right too.

So maybe, in both case, there was a bit of self-fulfilling prophecy going on. But hey, that's war.

You aren't fair at all toward humantradis here: I mean 99% of the time they made DEFENSIVE fights so they only killed Vajra who were a threat.
And they attacked 100% of the time they could.

Again with this "who shot first" thing? I said it isn't relevant anymore: as far as we know Frontier didn't know anything about Vajra before they attacked the colony. The fact Vajra doesn't know about individuality isn't a justification as well.

Yeah, and as far as we know, the Vajra didn't know anything about the humans before the latter decided to dissect them.

Again: this isn't relevant anymore. Vajra inflicted immense damages to Frontier while this colony didn't do anything to them: the fact someone another did some bad things to them (even if we haven't enough information about this) IS NOT A JUSTIFICATION either.
It actually is. Most of the people who get killed in wars haven't personally done anything to the guys who pull the triggers. Even if they're soldiers... You basically have soldiers on one side, soldiers with different uniforms on the other, they haven't done anything to each other, they've never even met, but they still gleefully kill each other in the name of their homeland's defense - and that's in the good cases.

That's speculation. We only know that the Research Fleet was annihilated by the Vajra and after that we don't know anything, a part from the fact we're thrown right in the attack Vajra are making on the humans. As far as we know the Research Fleet was the only human fleet which made contact with the Vajra before Frontier and Galaxy.
Yes, it is speculation. Which is why I use a lot of "may". Nevertheless, one fleet would be quite enough to piss off the Vajra.

We have already a reason for the war: Grace said, answring mentally to Leon's question "why do we have to suffer so much because of Vajra?", that the Vajra are attacking because human's dream of colonizing planet around the galaxy is an obstacle. In other words: Vajra don't want anybody in their own region of space.

Especially people who dissect them for fun and profit. Can't imagine why.

ipernorris

2008-09-16, 13:51

Right. As opposed to your arguments, which are all based solely on fact, right? :eyebrow:

I only mentioned phrases stated by the characters in the series... in particular regarding Vajra's purpose and the fact they have only one mind thus one will.
For the rest:

The fact that we've only been shown the Vajra's attack on the Research Fleet doesn't mean that was the only point of contact. And it doesn't change the very real possibility that they, as a species, are only responding to a previous attack. Just like you defend the populace of Frontier to continue doing, as well. Can't you see this?

And who says you need justification for war? Most of the time, you don't even need a good enough motive...
We know only what has been shown and the only contact between humantradis and Vajra, before Macross Frontier timeline, has been with the Research Fleet. The rest is speculation. Regarding the justification issue: I meant to say only that Frontier didn't do anything to Vajra, but they attacked it with the purpose of annihilating them, otherwise they wouldn't have attacked civil areas.
If Frontier, like the Research Fleet probably did, messed up with Vajra then it would have been another story.
People have said that Vajra may view the humantradis as an enemy because of the Research Fleet: it may be, but this isn't a good excuse for killing millions of people who didn't do anything to you.

If the reason for the Vijra fighitng the humans is because the humans are invading their territory...and the humans know this (how?), then wouldn't going around that region be in order? Or at least attempting to go through that space in the quickest possible fashion rather than drag the fleet in and slowly ponder around looking for a place to settle? Perhaps at one time the Vajra were more open to tresspassers and settlers, but now they aren't. Probably because of abuse of their space and/or populations by the Research Fleet (or others if any other human fleets have been in this region before Frontier arrives).
Grace knows about Vajra's true purposes, but the rest of humanity does not most likely.

In that light, what the Vajra are doing is border patrol and then attempting to repel an invader...about the same as a human nation would do with a massive military/colonial force wondering onto your continent/country. Imagine if the British arrived someplace right after the First World War with a huge convoy of their people supported by part of the Royal Navy arriving in your territorial waters and didn't communicate with you at all as to what they were doing. Most nations would challenge a force entering their territory. If the Royal Navy destroyed the challengers and then the fleet continues onwards into your harbors, then moves onto a huge train a trucks and cars with tanks and planes escorting them across your country...and they still haven't said a word...wouldn't you try to repel the invaders?
Uhm there is a difference between wanting to repel and wanting to exterminate: this difference can be seen in the combat field very clearly by the way a faction fights. Vajra clearly fought in order to exterminate Frontier, not simply repel it.

But the humans didn't know that when they made the decision to clean out nests. As I said, I'm also looking at intents. And the humans never had the intent to distinguish between Vajras, whether there was a distinction to be made or not. Like you, they just assumed that all Vajra would be their enemies. In the end, it turned out that they were right because there was, in fact, only one Vajra. But if they were right, it was by accident!
There is active defense too: when they burnt the nests it was short after they suffered a huge attack from the Vajra. It's not like they started burning down Vajra's nests out of the blue.

Also, the Vajra may have speculated that the humans would be their enemies. And hey, guess what? They were right too.
So maybe, in both case, there was a bit of self-fulfilling prophecy going on. But hey, that's war.

Wrong speculation. Humans aren't all the same, evreyone has his own thought. If Vajra cannot understand this it's their own problem and doesn't excuse them from the millions of deaths.

Yeah, and as far as we know, the Vajra didn't know anything about the humans before the latter decided to dissect them.

What the Research Fleet did it's not Frontier's business.

Especially people who dissect them for fun and profit. Can't imagine why.
I think we think the same regarding the Research Fleet: they bite the dust and nobody is crying for them. I think we only have different POV regarding Frontier and its right to defense itself even by annihilating the Vajra.

BetoJR

2008-09-16, 14:04

Uhm there is a difference between wanting to repel and wanting to exterminate: this difference can be seen in the combat field very clearly by the way a faction fights. Vajra clearly fought in order to exterminate Frontier, not simply repel it.
Sure, and Frontier was such a good sport about it, eh? :heh:
Sorry, not buying your double standards on this issue. Both sides have their reasons, maybe one side is more justified than the other (but we don't really know that, yet) like most conflicts that were ever depicted in fiction (and in reality, as well).

FhnuZoag

2008-09-16, 14:18

I don't think it's clear at all that the Vajra attacked Frontier with the goal of annihilation. Don't forget that each red Vajra was equipped with an anti-capital ship beam weapon. This means that during each of the attacks, the Vajra could have attempted to destroy the main Frontier colony ship. If the Vajra were trying to destroy Frontier at the start, when they were unprepared and unshielded, they could easily have won.

However, for the first few episodes, the Vajra reserved their weapons exclusively for Frontier support warships. The attack in the first episode, for example, was clearly to establish contact with Ranka Lee. The Vajra battlecruiser too engaged only the Galaxy warships. It wasn't that the Vajra didn't know the location of Frontier, but rather that they didn't attack civilian targets. (Even though during this time Frontier was busy taking out Vajra hives.) It was only with the deployment of the Dimension Eater, that the Vajra actually began to fire on Island-1 - the attack came immediately afterwards, showing that the Vajra was in fact tolerating Frontier's presence until then. We have no telling how important Galia 4 was to them, or what the bomb would feel to fold sensitive creatures. (Think about how that looked to the Vajra: they let the humantradis settle on a planet with their own colony on it, left them alone for a while. Then a couple of fighters arrive from Frontier. They let them explore, let them even meet their queen. And then the humans attack within the chamber of the queen, kidnapping Ranka who had returned to them, a fold bomb destroys the planet, and their queen launches a retaliatory attack and ends up dead, because in a moment of weakness they listened to Ranka's song and thought it was a peace offer.) No matter what the Research Fleet did, the humans did shoot first in the series itself.

I'm also not very convinced that the Vajra don't have individual minds - note the different behaviour from the other Vajra Ai-chan exhibits, and also the ability of Vajra to behave normally at the start of ep 22 even when Luca had them fold-jammed from the rest of the collective.

Evangelion Xgouki

2008-09-16, 16:03

Again with this "who shot first" thing? I said it isn't relevant anymore: as far as we know Frontier didn't know anything about Vajra before they attacked the colony. The fact Vajra doesn't know about individuality isn't a justification as well.

Isn't that untrue in that during he first attack on the Frontier fleet President Glass called the SMS and stated that "they're here" and that the SMS had some knowledge of the Vajra before engaging them in combat? They might not have known much, but they knew of their existence as well as what to call them (Vajra).

Also Grace stated at a point to Leon that the plan to get the Vajra to attack the Frontier went well, meaning that they did something before the start of the series to cause the Vajra to become hostile towards the 25th colonization fleet if not all the fleets. While it doesn't 100% prove who pissed who off first, it does show that the hostility of the Vajra to the Frontier fleet in particular is the result of human action(s).

Anh_Minh

2008-09-16, 16:19

Sure, and Frontier was such a good sport about it, eh? :heh:
Sorry, not buying your double standards on this issue. Both sides have their reasons, maybe one side is more justified than the other (but we don't really know that, yet) like most conflicts that were ever depicted in fiction (and in reality, as well).

Indeed. And if the humans were somehow more justified, it was by accident rather than by design.

I'm not really intent on throwing the stone at anyone. The way I see it, most people involved may have acted simply out of ignorance and self-preservation instinct. Even the research fleet: maybe they mistook the Vajra for mere animals and didn't imagine the consequences of harming a few of them for experiments.

Where I think Ipernorris is using double standards is when he demands that the Vajra be more considerate than the humans. That they make more of an effort to understand them and sort the good from the bad than the humans ever made for the Vajra. Sure, a posteriori, you can say that the humans were right to think the Vajra were all the same. But let's be honest, here. The humans didn't really care. Even before knowing about the hivemind, they acted as if all the Vajra were the same.

And as for the Vajra - it may not even have occurred to them in the first place that the humans weren't. I can't really blame them for not making that breakthrough.

Imagine a guy shoots in the air, not aiming at anything. Just to be festive. Three kilometers away, his bullet hits a random passer-by. Fatally.

Now, compare with another guy who shoots in the air, not knowing where it'll fall either. Only in his case, it hits an armed robber before he can kill someone.

Is the first guy a murderer? The second a hero? No, they're both idiots who endangered the people around them by playing with firearms. They both acted for the same reasons, only the outcome changed - because of chance, not anything they did.

To me, the Vajra and humans are a bit the same. With the difference that dispelling their ignorance isn't as simple a matter as taking gun safety courses.

Wesley84

2008-09-16, 17:44

I think Vajra should be refered to as singular for the time being. It's not even a group conciousness. It's just one entity micromanaging the entire organism. Sort of like walking and chewing bubblegum to the millionth power or so.

Ithekro

2008-09-16, 17:48

This debate sounds like some of the rounds we had during history courses over the reasons and justifications of several different wars. Also some interpetations over who started the Second World War and why and with whom. I'm not talking about the war in Europe either...I mean the longer war in Asia and the Pacific...you know, the one that started in 1931 China and lasted until 1945 (or even the mid-1970s for a few unlucky souls that never got their orders to stand down). Those debates can really mess with your head and notions you might have from your current history textbooks.

Same problem. Who started it and why? It isn't always a matter of who shot first if the one that shot first was provoked into shooting. Sometimes the first shot isn't what starts the war. It could the the thousandth shot...it was just the first one that was really noticed, or had a civilian impact. It could also be years between the first shot and the real start of the war. Some wars are like that. One just has to figure out (hopefully in the next two episodes) just what is going on and perhaps the truth behind this conflict.

As for the double standard....that is normal in war. Propaganda works, and some people are wired to see things certain ways and others see it differently. Sometimes that is the cause of a war.