View Full Version : The Macross Universe - Analysis and Discussion
Vulcannis
2008-07-08, 16:11
Wait wait, when did we find out that Dr. Nome was in the 177th fleet?
I speculated on it (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=1637451&postcount=137) in the ep 10 thread but got no replies. Since then I've seen a few people mentioning it, though. At the time I was just trying to explain the irony that Ozma noted, but it still fits nicely with the new details from the last ep.
It's obvious that Ranka has a closer connection to Mao than merely being in the same fleet. That would not be enough for Ozma's remark. Ranka's either a relative or connected to Mao's research.
That was the flagship, in an observing position, not attacking.
- Tak
Starships involved in multiple skyscraper 911 level destruction in S1 EP02
http://i328.photobucket.com/albums/l327/encia/1527.jpg
To vaporise(Latent Heat of Evaporation) 24.2mx31.9mx15.5m Laihunite based rock; It may need ~256 kiloton(assuming if my calcs and assumptions are correct).
In http://i328.photobucket.com/albums/l327/encia/1527.jpg
The Macross canon vaporised rock size larger than my estimates.
I don't recall it ever being shown, but the Quiltra-Quelamitz Class ships should be roughly equivalent to SDF-1 in firepower. Indirectly, we can calculate the amount of firepower shown in episode 27 to get a rough idea of how much the individual Zentradi ships dish out. I suggest that if you want to discuss this point further, you're better off putting it in the Mecha thread.
About 05:58, one large beam destroys a city.
http://i328.photobucket.com/albums/l327/encia/270558.jpg
WWII ~12 kiloton nuke can do a similar damage.
Not a immigration fleet that's for sure.
In one of the Macross 7 Plus clips there are such fleets as recon/exploration fleets where they investigate planets.
But given that a certain Dr. Mao Nome was a member of this fleet (117th Research fleet) I suppose this fleet is science fleet. (Watch Macross Zero)
With Mao Nome's connection I postulate that this particular fleet is researching Protoculture related artifacts.
Mao's a Mayan native that has genetic links to the Protoculture Birdman aka AFOS.
If I'm right Ranka, Brera and Sheryl are her grandchildren.
Mao's entire family getting wiped out in the 177th fleet could explain the orphan status of both Ranka and Sheryl.
Maybe it would be something like a scouting fleet, like a pathfinder sort of thing.
Something for those pretty low on the pecking order since it seems likes they are using a ship with a 50 year old (40 year old then) design as the centerpiece.
About 05:58, one large beam destroys a city.
http://i328.photobucket.com/albums/l327/encia/270558.jpg
WWII ~12 kiloton nuke can do a similar damage.
You're a little bit off. What the picture depicts is a beam that causes a fireball at least large enough to engulf the city. If the city were 20km across, and the beam was as capable of producing a fireball as a nuclear bomb airburst, then the beam would have had the energy equivalent of 1550 megatons of TNT as a lower limit.
In comparison, Little Boy's 12 kiloton explosion produced a fireball of only a couple hundred meters in diameter. It was the ensuing blast and firestorm effects that ended up destroying Hiroshima (and these effects were confined to about 3.5km of the epicenter). In modern-day nuclear weapons projections, it would be impossible for any single nuclear device to destroy a city the size of New York - it'd take multiple overlapping explosions to do the same thing.
SymphonicRain
2008-07-10, 00:59
A single nuclear device, even if not enough to destroy New York physically, is more than enough to render the entire city useless. There are side effects of EMP blasts that is enough to fry circuits to render electronics, communication useless, radiation to make the environment too hostile to live and survive. If you include the factor of the black rain and even wind, the radius of the radiation effects could be even far bigger than thought.
So I think its a bad example to use nuclear weapon as a comparison to the beam explosion which the latter, has a relatively unknown side effects than a nuclear weapon device.
I saw fans posting some figures and just had to post.
I was wondering if any of you have a fan-made firepower analysis of the SDF-1 Macross main gun. It was calculated based on the first firing of the weapon in episode 1 of the original series. I read through it years ago on another message board and I'm still kicking myself for not saving a copy of it.
Basically, the fan calculated everything from the first firing; the beam's vaporization of the mountain range on South Ataria Island, the thousands of kilometers of water through which the beam traveled, the 280,000 kilometers out into space and the two Zentradi Pickets the two beams destroyed. I remember this fan ended up with a firepower figure of about one teraton explosive yield.
Anyone ever seen it? Or better yet, anyone capable of figuring it out themselves? Just thought I'd give it a shot, since I'd love to include it in the "For Fans Only" section of my website.
ReddyRedWolf
2008-07-12, 10:33
March how about trying experts at the mech and tech thread to collect data.
Usually we talk here about politics and culture in the Macross universe.
Since we are talking about nukes here how about their politically correct overtechnology version which was recently used on the Vajra.
(Copy pasta from my post in MW)
If the events of VFX-2 had an effect of decentranlization due to distrust with UN Spacy's reliability.
There is still a treaty that prohibits the use of reaction weapons as a first strike weapon.
It is illegal to even smuggle them as shown in Macross Dynamite 7.
One of the biggest issues in Macross 7 was fleet abandonment by Earth UN Spacy.
Indeed 3 fleets were almost lost is the region of space which the Protodevlin roamed.
This may account for the current independence of fleets
Glass authorizing the use of reaction weapons without any effort to negotiate with a new species will not go well diplomaticly with the rest of the fleets and colonies. That is why he was quesy in using them. Leon pushed the right buttons for him to authorize it.
The memory Lynn Minmay and Nekki Basara is still fresh in the minds of the people.
No doubt even Ranka Lee's effort in the memory of the former insubordinate 33rd fleet will remind them even more that as Basara would say "War is stupid".
Then again Grace O'Connor appears to be the antithesis of Basara. Spreading a song of destruction.
You're a little bit off. What the picture depicts is a beam that causes a fireball at least large enough to engulf the city. If the city were 20km across,
It's less than 20Km. i.e. you can see the building box structures. Run google maps and zoom 20km worth of city vs 2 km worth of city.
and the beam was as capable of producing a fireball
It's more likely higher EM frequency flash (>visual) before it degrades to inferred EM frequency. A fireball is basically IR.
This is not an air burst based weapon. The beam has to impact the ground and this produces a larger fireball i.e. the EM frequency would have degraded as the energy is reflected from the ground.
Anyway,
05:57; blue beam terminates;
05:58; yellow star shaped energy spread (around 15 buildings across);
05:58: around 7 buildings across for initial spherical flash blast; initial shockwave size 30 buildings across.
05:58: The flash spreads and engulfs the entire city.
So I learned an interesting fact today about the Itano Circus.
Apparently, Itano and Kawamori got the idea from observing live mock dogfights, but Itano wasn't satisfied. Thus, he went through the laborious process of acquiring a bike license, then purchased his own bike, mounted at least 50 plastic tubes on it and an equivalent amount of fireworks, then cruised at really high speeds while setting the fireworks off near a river.
But, that wasn't enough, as it was taken from an offensive point of view. So Itano later got a kohai he really hated, and did the same thing to his bike. Itano ordered him to ride near the river at high speeds while setting the fireworks off so he could look at it from a defensive point of view. Rest assured, after numerous trial, errors and burns (thats a fact, he lost his t-shirt at one point due to a direct hit), the Itano Circus was born...
- Tak (Well, that was random)
ReddyRedWolf
2008-07-20, 01:35
Here's an intersting fact from the last ep. Contrary to our initial assesment implants and cybernetics are wildly accepted, rarely is it illegal on fleets or colonies.
Macross Frontier has adopted a Eco-friendly stance with it's bioplant islands thus those laws of balancing the environment.
Frontier's all natural stance is also reflected on the cybernetics issue.
squaresphere
2008-07-20, 07:17
I think it was said, Grace choose Frontier because the bio plant are highly effected by the Vajra. It could also be that since there's a lack of cybernetics and that it gives her a much bigger advantage in terms of espionage and counter response.
pkang0327
2008-07-22, 06:45
How would you rank the top 5 pilots in Macross? Take out Max and Millia because they would be 1 and 2 respectively on everyone's list.
1. Roy Fokker
2. Hikaru Ichijo
3. Isamu Dyson
4. Nekki Basara (dude never fired a shot, sang/played, and never got shot down. Either lucky as hell, or a really good pilot)
5. Milene Jenius (no formal training, only a young teenager, but can still tear things up, purely on native ability.)
I put Roy Fokker as number 1, because he can change the tide in any battle. His flying skills, leadership ability, experience, and charisma is unparalleled.
I put Hikaru Ichijo as number 2, because he was a very good pilot. I think his skills were underestimated purely because Maximillian was his wingman. Hikaru was already an accomplished amateur pilot. Upon enlisting, he proved himself many times, especially on the battle on Mars. After Fokker died, he was the go to guy for critical missions. On a scale of 1-10, Maximillian is a 10, Millia is a 9.5 then I'd say Hikaru was a 9. I think, at the end of Macross DYRL, Hikaru would beat Fokker in a dogfight.
Isamu is a great test pilot. Perfect for the job. He's crazy enough to push himself as close to death as possible. Despite his piloting skill, I can't say he's better than Hikaru. I think Hikaru just comes off as being MORE comfortable in a fighter than Isamu.
Ivanonv tops that list.
Bah! One step ahead of me eh! Wait... nah, I thought of him first in a prior first, I STILL WIN!!! :D
*ahem*
Yeah, Ivanov would be the first amongst that list. Perhaps on par with Max or even better. Watch him in Zero, the man was toying with Roy for kicks.
- Tak
I haven't done a list in a while. I'm going to put some thought into it and see what happens :)
I know we're supposed to keep Max and Milia out of the race, but any list without them at the top just seems wrong. So I'll put them in their own category then go from there.
Inhuman Champions
1a. Maximillian Jenius
2a. Milia Fallyna
The Upper Echelon
1. Chlore
2. Roy Focker
3. Isamu Dyson & Guld Bowman
4. Nekki Basara
5. Ozuma Lee
6. Hikaru Ichijo & Gamlin Kizaki
7. Alto Saotome & Brera Sterne
8. D.D. Ivanov
9. Mikhail Buran/Michael Blanc
The Regulars
10. Kuran Kuran
11. Nora Polyansky
12. Shin Kudo
13. Emilia Jenius
14. Kinryu
15. Ray Lovelock
16. Docker
17. Kamjin Kravshera & Temjin
18. Gigile
19. Canaria Berstein
20. Gavil
The Cannon Fodder
21. Henry Gilliam
22. Mylene Jenius
23. Hayao Kakizaki
24. Luca Angeloni
Kawamori has stated in interviews that Max and Milia are in a league all their own so there can be no doubt they dominate. Max is like the Einstein of piloting, hence why he's called a genius :)
Chlore was said to be very competitive with Milia for best pilot of the Meltran and in kill score, suggesting she either equals or sits just below Milia. That kind of accomplishment means Chlore is definitely second only to M&M :)
Once down to the realistic benchmarks, I still think that Roy Focker is the most accomplished of all the non-super pilots of Macross. He's definitely got the biggest kill score and probably the most experience. He's also an exceptional leader and I couldn't think of any other Macross pilot I'd want to fly under than Roy.
Isamu and Guld were clearly defined as above and beyond most pilots. The YF-19 went through seven pilots before Isamu and his display in the opening of Macross Plus still remains one of the single most impressive engagements in all of Macross. Going up against the bio-neural X-9 Ghost that moves like lightning (even faster than Brera's VF-27 it seems) is an accomplishment all its own and Guld managed to take it down, something even Isamu might not have been able to do.
The story of Macross 7 clearly defines Basara as a plot device and as such it necessitates that we acknowledge his talent as a pilot well above his contemporaries. I have to include him because he is so obviously portrayed as an ace among aces. Having said that, in any other Macross-like combat scenario and without the benefit of Macross 7's absurd plot, It's my opinion Basara would rank near the end of the list and perhaps below even some of The Regulars.
Ozuma is impressive and he's obviously cut from the same mold as Roy Focker. He also went up against arguably the most powerful enemy a human pilot has ever faced - the Vajra - and he did it with a knife :) As Frontier progresses his kill score continues to soar and he appears to be an inspiring commander.
Hikaru and Gamlin are probably the two most underrated pilots in Macross. Both possess considerable natural talent for flying but story circumstances demanded they play second place to Max and Basara respectively. I think measured in any realistic sense, these two would be acknowledged as top tier pilots and more importantly, as distinguished unit commanders, something a lot of the other pilots on the list lack. War is ultimately about mass battles and while some pilots might be equal or a bit better than these two, those others don't offer the UN Spacy what Hikaru and Gamlin can offer in terms of leadership and strategic skill.
Alto and Brera seem to be in their own league in Frontier, with the exception of Ozuma. It might be too early to tell, but I get the feeling these two are the stars of the show. For now they'll maintain a spot on the list unless something goes askew :)
D.D. Ivanov gave Roy a run for his money, but I never got the sense that Roy couldn't best him. D.D. seemed to have an affinity for luck that carried him a bit more than his actual skill, but even so his neck-and-neck with Roy means he's definitely to be feared. As Isamu said, luck is a skill :)
Mikhail seems to be noted as a talent above the norm. While he's definitely a standout and likely deserves a spot on the list, I'm not sure he'd fair all that well compared to the rest so I put him near the end.
squaresphere
2008-07-22, 13:24
hmmm i like most of the list expect for Mikhail. We really have one piece of info that states he might be better at piloting than Alto. Which is the fact he was the leader chosen for the school squad. Now that could be more due to his cool head and strategic thinking rather than straight piloting.
In battle Mikhail has only been shown as a Gimmicky sniper. Now if he was able to snip while pulling massive aerial dog fights...
Klan has shown that she runs almost as close if not equal to Alto-Hime. The only time she got out maneuvered was with the VF-27. Even if Alto was able to damage the 27 in the same ep, that later fight on Gallia 4 showed luck probably had a huge hand.
Ultimately I think if their positions in the rankings were flipped flopped it would make more sense.
D.D. Ivanov gave Roy a run for his money, but I never got the sense that Roy couldn't best him. D.D. seemed to have an affinity for luck that carried him a bit more than his actual skill, but even so his neck-and-neck with Roy means he's definitely to be feared. As Isamu said, luck is a skill :)
Second episode of Zero was enough to convince me that DD was on top of the list, if not on the same levels of M&M. Just look at the expressions of both pilots. DD is often calm and relaxed, while Roy was often frantic and serious whenever he fought DD. Never mind that DD taught Roy how to fly, and definitely knew Roy's playbook from the first to last page, but whenever DD fights, it looks like he was having ... fun.
Just take the valley run in the second episode of Zero for example. DD had Roy on his 6, the worst position you can ever have in a dog fight, not to mention they were also fighting in a very confined area. DD was in a disadvantageous situation and low on gas, but he was more or less like whatever throughout the entire fight. The only time DD went crazy was when Nora got taken out. Otherwise, he would have just smiled throughout the entire conflict.
- Tak
Damn i miss the Zero dogfights, those where really awesome.
squaresphere
Hikaru out ranked Max :) Mikhail is likely in charge due to seniority and experience. But the contest between Mikhail and Alto could go either way. However, I've a feeling Alto is going to become the better of the two.
I don't see Kuran Kuran as all that impressive. She ran Alto good, but that appeared more experience than skill. She gave Brera pause, but he clearly sits comfortably beyond her. So far, Alto is the only one who's given Brera a run for his money, though I think Ozuma could best Brera. Ultimately, I'd argue that Alto is still honing his skills.
Sometimes it's hard to measure skill in a developing story, especially with television series. First half of SDF Macross Hikaru was talented but not that great. If someone asked me 15 episodes into SDF Macross if Hikaru was top tier talent, I'd laugh. It wasn't until Hikaru matured and embraced the military instead of resenting it that he truly became a lethal pilot. In the second half of the series Hikaru was a juggernaught. I think Alto is much the same at this point. He's inexperienced and brash, but his potential is rapidly becoming apparent; episode 14 also raised more than a few of the characters eyebrows when they saw Alto make his impressive charge through the ranks of the Vajra to rescue Ranka.
The only one I'm really unsure of at this point is the contest between Luca and Kakizaki. I can't decide which of the two is the worst pilot in all of Macross :)
Tak
Never much of a fan actually. To me, most of the dogfights in Macross Zero were pretty much the same as far as acrobatics. Shin and Nora looked as wickedly wild as D.D. and Roy. Roy was meant to look pressed for the sake of drama because his overpowering skill makes every battle quite tensionless. Which is one of the reasons Macross Zero was weakened by the inclusion of Roy Focker and necessitated his depowering for the sake of the story (much like super hero teams where the heavies are always weakened so as to allow the other members a chance to be useful). I always felt that D.D. comes on strong but he's got no legs. Roy was always taken back by Ivanov's assaults, but always remained on his feet. For all his skill, D.D. could never seem to make the close against Roy. Roy survived D.D.'s supposed overpowering skill time and time again. As it came down to the wire, Roy would have eventually prevailed and rope-a-doped Ivanov.
Besides, both D.D. and Nora got taken out like chumps in the end. It took three Q-Raus to take Roy down, which he still downed anyway and then flew back before expiring. A fine finish by comparison. :)
squaresphere
2008-07-22, 15:46
squaresphere
He's inexperienced and brash, but his potential is rapidly becoming apparent; episode 14 also raised more than a few of the characters eyebrows when they saw Alto make his impressive charge through the ranks of the Vajra to rescue Ranka.
Yeah i see your point, but I say we throw out his assault on the mothership as Ranka had started singing and the Vajra were obviously distracted.
The only one I'm really unsure of at this point is the contest between Luca and Kakizaki. I can't decide which of the two is the worst pilot in all of Macross :)
Luca is the obvious answer. Kakizaki is actually an ace in his own right. Yeah, he wasn't that great of an ace, but he sure as heck survived more missions and shot down more enemies than Luca probably ever will. Besides, if you go by the original, he died due to an accident in the SDF, not because he intentionally ran into trouble.
On the other hand, if you ask me who the worst pilot in Macross is? I'd point at Shin without hesitation.
- Tak
On the other hand, if you ask me who the worst pilot in Macross is? I'd point at Shin without hesitation.
Shouldn't that be Sheryl? :heh:
OK, given we've only ever seen her in combat that one time.
Shouldn't that be Sheryl? :heh:
OK, given we've only ever seen her in combat that one time.
*Ahem* Sorry uh, certified pilots.
- Tak
ChronoReverse
2008-07-22, 17:16
You have to wonder about the level of Basara if he wasn't so hippy about it. Despite that fact he clearly lost (and got his sound booster trashed) by Chloe, Chloe was unable to deal a deathblow to him.
In a dogfight, not counter-attacking when the opportunity presents itself means you'll find yourself in a deeper and deeper rut. Holding your own is easier than not counter-attacking,
Granted, Basara tried his speaker pods but seriously that doesn't compare at all to a gatling gun in terms of both RoF and bullet velocity.
[..]
On the other hand, if you ask me who the worst pilot in Macross is? I'd point at Shin without hesitation.
- Tak
Worst pilot, hardly, worst VF pilot, yes :)
As a navy fighter, Shin was a damn ace. Inside the VF he was a cluts. mostly because all that stuff was new to him and he had trouble adapting to it.
Worst pilot, hardly, worst VF pilot, yes :)
Not even that. I'm sure there are members of the unnamed cannon fodder squadrons that were worse. Sortie once, Explode.
The worst pilot in Macross probably flew a tan VF-1A [or possibly a VF-171], and we don't remember his death, whoever he was.
pkang0327
2008-07-23, 07:33
I think Ivanov had the superior machine, that's why Fokker struggled. The VF-0 was designed to be a mass produced fighter. It had to make sacrifices in performance in order to make sure the fighter could be mass produced.
I think, by the end of DYRL, Hikaru surpasses Roy Fokker. At the latter stages of Space War 1, and at the conclusion, Hikaru was the go to guy for impossible missions.
Remember, Hikaru was in a flying circus, and he's been flying (riding shotgun) since he could walk. IMHO, the aerial acrobatics that Hikaru could do would be on par with Isamu Dyson. The only time that Hikaru got shot down was due to friendly fire. Did you see the number of missiles fired from that Daedalus attack?
Burner of Anime
2008-07-23, 22:29
The only time that Hikaru got shot down was due to friendly fire. Did you see the number of missiles fired from that Daedalus attack?
Er, more than that if it's only counting the times he's been in combat.
It's more like 4 times. I'm listing his noobie flight in the trainer [incapacitated by giant alien in rigor mortis :uhoh:], getting caught by the booby trap set by the lolicon gang :heh:, having his battroid trashed in hand to hand combat vs the commander >_< and finally getting shot down by Misa. Hikaru isn't doing the ace label any justice :rolleyes:
One thing I noticed about Macross Frontier is how much the staff likes toying with us with episode titles that doesn't say much and synopsis that are technically accurate but completely hid the ball as to what the real plot is. Not that I'm complaining, since it does make the surprises all that sweeter, but it is fun to look back and see how misleading things actually were (and so we can give future synopsis the real consideration it deserves.... :heh:)
So let's take a look starting with episode 10 onwards (1-9 wasn't as bad):
Episode 10: "Legend of Zero"
Ranka is hired to act for a supporting role in the movie, Bird Human, while Miranda Melin, the current Miss Macross, will be the main female protagonist. The movie tells the story of the Macross Zero OAV series.
What wasn't mentioned:
Sheryl's role in the whole thing. Everyone knew the Ranka + Alto kiss before the episode came out, but Sheryl's part was a complete surprise.
Episode 11: "Missing Birthday"
Ranka prepares a special gift for Alto's approaching birthday and Alto has a decision he needs to make.
What wasn't mentioned:
That everyone else (Sheryl & Alto's adopted brother) also had their birthday presents for Alto.
Episode 12: "Fastest Delivery"
Sheryl gives a relief concert for the N.U.N.S. 33rd Naval/Marine Zentradi Fleet at planet Galia 4 (惑星ガリア4), but because of an undisclosed illness she is unable to give her concert, which causes a huge riot among the soldiers.
What wasn't mentioned:
Sheryl was out sick most of the episode. The fastest delivery is all about Ranka to the rescue and launching her Moe deathstar supermove.
Episode 13: Memory of Global" (Originally named "Twlight Planet")
Alto & Ranka's plane crashed due to an equipment malfunction, this gaves them a chance to talk for the first time in a long while. Meanwhile, Sheryl and Michael goes out searching for them.
What wasn't mentioned:
The vaunted talk lasted like 1 mins before Ranka got kidnapped. The main point of the episode was Alto exploring the wreckage of the Global looking for Ranka and Grace taking out the planet.
Episode 14: Mother's Lullaby
Following Alto and Michael, Luka is also heading to the battlefield. Before heading to the front, Luka tries to confess his feelings to Nanase. At the same time, Ranka is beginning to recall some of the memories hidden in her mother's lullaby (Aimo). What are the relationships between Ranka, the truth in her memories, Burera, and the Vajra?
What wasn't mentioned:
This synopsis covers 2 minor plot points, neither of which went anywhere. It leaves out what the episode was really about - big fight between Vajra and the Frontier Fleet.
Episode 15: Lost Peace
While Sheryl did temporarily feel better from the illness that led to her concert's cancellation on Galia 4, she was unable to fully recover. As a result, Grace, Sheryl's manager, informed Sheryl that all her work are cancelled until she returns to full health.
Sheryl heard about Ranka's increase in popularity, and felt a strange sense of unease. At the same time, Alto and Ranka are coming to visit her.
What wasn't mentioned:
This synopsis covers 2 mins of the episode. The other 22 minutes were taken up by recap and Sheryl + Ranka duet.
Episode 16: Ranka Attack
Alto was summoned to the S.M.S. owner, Mr. Bilra's home. There, Mr. Bilra explained to Alto his personal dream. At the same time, Sheryl, who wants to see Alto with a single-minded determination, escapes from the hospital. Elsewhere, Ranka meets Burera, and finds out that he has been listing to her songs.
What wasn't mentioned:
Grace & NUNS using Ranka's song as a weapon vs. Vajra, Alto taking Sheryl on Macross Quarters and her observing the battle.
Overall, it seems while the titles do make sense once you seen the whole episode, the synopsis were often focused on insignificant plot points and seems designed to mislead us viewer on the wrong tangent.
Additionally, it seems like whichever female lead is not mentioned in the synopsis usually still have a significant role in the episode.
So while reading advance synopsis is fun, I think in the case of Macross Frontier, the important part of the episode is probably the part they didn't mention in the synopsis. :naughty:
What can I say, the writers are surprisingly cleaver this time around. Its scary.
- Tak
The story of Macross 7 clearly defines Basara as a plot device and as such it necessitates that we acknowledge his talent as a pilot well above his contemporaries. I have to include him because he is so obviously portrayed as an ace among aces. Having said that, in any other Macross-like combat scenario and without the benefit of Macross 7's absurd plot, It's my opinion Basara would rank near the end of the list and perhaps below even some of The Regulars
Exactly why I can't take people seriously when they list Basara as one of the best pilots, it was so obviously a plot device. Put him in the same Valk as Isamu or Ozma and he would get torn apart.
Overall, it seems while the titles do make sense once you seen the whole episode, the synopsis were often focused on insignificant plot points and seems designed to mislead us viewer on the wrong tangent.
Additionally, it seems like whichever female lead is not mentioned in the synopsis usually still have a significant role in the episode.
So while reading advance synopsis is fun, I think in the case of Macross Frontier, the important part of the episode is probably the part they didn't mention in the synopsis. :naughty:
Yep which is why I'm looking forward to episode 20 since while the synopsis mentions one girl the title clearly is for the other :)
And I think epiosde 17 will keep this trend going, all signs are pointing at Ozma but I wouldn't be surprised if some of Brera's memories surface and he remembers how he parted with Ranka during the Varja attack. Which is the real reason behind the title of Goodbye Sister.
I wouldn't be surprised if some of Brera's memories surface and he remembers how he parted with Ranka during the Varja attack. Which is the real reason behind the title of Goodbye Sister.
Hmm, that may be the best speculation I have heard about episode 17 title to date. Ozma eating the pineapple salad is just too cliche for this production staff noted for its cleverness. :)
Exactly why I can't take people seriously when they list Basara as one of the best pilots, it was so obviously a plot device. Put him in the same Valk as Isamu or Ozma and he would get torn apart.
Well, it's just my opinion. It can be taken as seriously as you wish, or not all. I had to include Basara out of necessity. Whether I like it or not, Basara is one of the supposed aces of Macross even if I think his stature is all forced by virtue of the story. YMMV.
ChronoReverse
2008-07-31, 17:44
It was explicitly stated by Gamlin that Basara could take G's easily that he'd have trouble with. Plot armor or not, custom VF-19 or not, Basara is an extremely talented pilot.
squaresphere
2008-08-01, 09:06
Also in the context of the Macross Universe it's truth regardless of what people might think.
Honestly Basara and piloting go hand in hand with Singing as a way to end conflict.
There's plenty of skeptics of the "minmay" and "basara" attacks within their own universe. Without seeing it first hand it's really hard to make that logic jump even for characters in the series.
What is boils down to is even in our real life history we can't cherry pick what we consider true and what's fake based on our own preference. Not accepting Basara was an ace quality pilot would be like saying the Minmay attacked was just military propaganda or that the Sharon Apple incident never happened.
ReddyRedWolf
2008-08-02, 07:17
SMS is apparently a armed Fed Express when Bilrer started it. Sort of like GXP or Angel Links with pay.
With pirates and black market arms dealers in Macross Dynamite 7 I can see why this industry is needed.
I can see how Bilrer and Galaxy were involved with the 117th fleet.
Galaxy must have been the sponsor of the SDF Global.
While SMS was it's hired escort.
UN Spacy is more prioritized with rogue Zentradi and whatever Bodol fleet that may show up.
Indeed with fleet abandonment issues like Macross 7, SMS became a private anti-piracy security group.
Guess you can classify white hats as either of the three.
UN Spacy or NUNS formal military, Galaxy Patrol or UN Spacy local cops, PMCs or security groups like SMS.
squaresphere
2008-08-18, 09:07
http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/9638/870872ha4.th.jpg (http://img244.imageshack.us/my.php?image=870872ha4.jpg)
This picture demonstrates an element that I've thought about since Sheryl arrived on Frontier. Where is the paparazzi? They exist in Japan too. Tabloids and Gossip would follow those two around constantly. I would have loved to see that element in the anime.
This was an interesting point that was posted over in the image thread.
M7 had paparazzi and tabloid extensively in the show and even had some eps to explore the rumors the news rags threw out.
The one thing I could see is Frontier having extensive privacy laws to coincide with their anti implant stance. Lets face it, if anyone could have enhanced vision or hearing privacy would go right out the door.
At the same time though we have seen crowds of the camera men swarm Sheryl and Ranka from time to time. Sure maybe Alto, Ranka, and Sheryl don't read them but come on, you KNOW the bridge bunnies would :3
ReddyRedWolf
2008-09-14, 11:05
Though it may be late but for me the final nail has been put that Glass is not the President of the entire NUN just Frontier.
Leon having the title of fifth President of Frontier.
Now this conincides with Millia's faux campaign in Millia the President that she is the president of the Macross 7 fleet.
But unlike Frontier that seems to be under the authority of the presidential office.
Millia shares leadership with the military.
Basically Millia is charge of civilian affairs while Max is in charge of military affairs.
Glass was both military and civilian leader of Macross Frontier.
We can only guess that Macross Galaxy also has a different set up as it is a corporate venture. Though we are not so sure anymore as Macross Galaxy has gone rogue.
I think that pretty much every single Macross fleet can be substantially different from the other ones given their nature. After all, we've also seen Macross 5 as an all-Zentradi fleet, and it's easy to imagine a fleet under direct military control. I'd say that it's better to think of the colony fleets as semi-independent nations, each with a similar goal, but possibly exercising very different political and social structures.
Though it may be late but for me the final nail has been put that Glass is not the President of the entire NUN just Frontier.
Leon having the title of fifth President of Frontier.
Now this conincides with Millia's faux campaign in Millia the President that she is the president of the Macross 7 fleet.
But unlike Frontier that seems to be under the authority of the presidential office.
Millia shares leadership with the military.
Basically Millia is charge of civilian affairs while Max is in charge of military affairs.
Glass was both military and civilian leader of Macross Frontier.
We can only guess that Macross Galaxy also has a different set up as it is a corporate venture. Though we are not so sure anymore as Macross Galaxy has gone rogue.
Well, that could be part of the changes made in the NUNS, to reform it from the previous (Lynn Kaifun: fascist!) UN Spacy military junta based on Earth.
squaresphere
2008-09-14, 21:26
What killed it for me was how "president Leon" decided against giving up their journey for a wild ass gamble on taking the Vajra home world. The only person left in the fleet that could really challenge Leon's authority is probably the captain of the Battle Frontier.
That brings up the question... why aren't there more civilian ships with fold capabilities on frontier? I mean there's got to be some luxury fold craft that can get people from fleet to fleet. If I was a rich person, I'd definitely want out of the Frontier fleet.
Wesley84
2008-09-14, 22:27
They seem to have a Congress, with a House of Representatives mentioned. They should have the authority to remove Leon if it's deemed necessary. If they don't, there's real no point to them at all.
ReddyRedWolf
2008-09-14, 23:06
What killed it for me was how "president Leon" decided against giving up their journey for a wild ass gamble on taking the Vajra home world. The only person left in the fleet that could really challenge Leon's authority is probably the captain of the Battle Frontier.
That brings up the question... why aren't there more civilian ships with fold capabilities on frontier? I mean there's got to be some luxury fold craft that can get people from fleet to fleet. If I was a rich person, I'd definitely want out of the Frontier fleet.
Leon it seems has a streak of dangerous military adventurism. Remember what one of his goons said to Grace as a message.
There can only be one ruler of the galaxy.
Sounds to me he plans to pull a Varauta like war machine with Frontier once they touch down on the planet.
Do what Wilbur Garland could not do. Control the entire NUN.
Leon doesn't like the run away as far as you can strategy made by their founding father Bruno Global.
Forgetting that one Bodol main fleet has almost 5 million ships and there are 2000+ of them. Also the Supervision Army.
Does he really think fold quartz and Dimension Eaters would make a difference?
As for the question why the other islands just say I quit and leaving perhaps the islands do not have fold engines, only island 1.
Frontier is a novelty and luxury fleet compared to Macross 7, Macross 5 and Macross 1.
They don't like the space highway concept of Milky Road.
Wesley84
2008-09-15, 03:13
So why do the Vajra have a homeworld that doesn't seem particularly suited to them? Or rather, the things seem to be able to live anywhere. Why a planet more suited for a regular lifeform?
ReddyRedWolf
2008-10-22, 03:18
*Thread revival* (Initiates necromancy)
With events of Macross Frontier very nearly leading to galactic conquest what would be the reaction of the Human-Zentradi-Zolan society to it?
Would cyborgs be persecuted?
What measures would be done to prevent fleets from going rogue?
How would the Vajra and Fold Quartz affect the galactic economy?
squaresphere
2008-10-22, 14:59
well from what we knew about Frontier is was only of the few fleets that didn't allow cybernetics. So cyborgs being persecuted is unlikely if they're the majority. Don't forget a lot of older Zentradi war vets have implants as well (Mr. Bilier for example)
I figure the Vajra crystals will end up like the space whale meat in reactors. IE illegal but that won't keep some black markets opening up. Well that and provoking a Vajra hive is probably the fastest way to wipe out a system.
Fleets going rogue? Well i don't think they can really do anything about that. The tighter the yoke the more people will resist.
Haesslich
2008-10-22, 18:52
I doubt much will change - cyborgs weren't the issue so much as the fact that a conspiracy got a control of a New Macross-class carrier and apparently abandoned its island-ship and the rest of its fleet to the mercies of the Vajra, with the exception of the Dulfim which was apparently 'in' on the conspiracy. We don't know if the crew of the Dulfim were co-opted NUNS or if they were private mercenaries. With the Vajra crystals... well, if someone wants to get their ass kicked now that the Vajra know we're all individuals, by all means let them... although I suspect it'll be made illegal anyhow, with regards to fold reactors using Vajra crystals.
As for rogue fleets? Not much to be done except to keep vetting the people who get them to make sure they're not likely to go rogue, and keep a strong NUNS force available to handle rogues who attack the UN Spacy and allied groups. Given how long ago Macross Galaxy was commissioned, it looks like the people who got a hold of it may have been affiliated or allied with Wilbur Garland's gang of rogues since it launched around the time or just before the Battle 13 got hijacked.
Wild Goose
2008-10-22, 22:43
We have to differentiate between cybenetic implants and prosthetics. Replacement arms and legs for injuries would be alright, I believe, but what the line is drawn at is full body cyborgs like Grace.
As for fold quartz, it depends. If there's a way for the Vajra to drop off fold quartz without being dissected, and more two-way communication is possible, we could well have a cooperative soceity springing up. As for poaching... well, anyone who wants to try poach Vajra is welcome to try, and of course to get their asses kicked.
As for the rest of the Galaxy fleet left to the mercies of the Vajra, I'm not too sure of that. We see a number of Deneb-class cruisers around where the Queen is in episode 25, as Alto makes his canyon run (at my count there were at least 5).
Something to consider: we all agree that the VF-171 is a nerfed fighter (apparently official sources also say that it's not quite up to the standards of the old VF-17). Could the switch to the VF-171 from the VF-19 perhaps be the NUNS way of having a trump card? When your rogue fleet's grunts are using VF-19s, it's a lot more difficult to fight them off, compared to if they're just using VF-171s...
...leaving aside the reason that if Kawamori turned the VF-19 into a grunt cannon fodder mecha the nerd rage would be greater than the NanoFate Legion...
CaptGloval
2008-10-23, 07:21
Come to think of it, since Grace has proven the feasibility of the galactic real-time network. Some evil schemer would be inspired to try again. I think this would involve using the descendants of Sheryl and Ranka or maybe the schemer would be one descendant turned bad.
Something to consider: we all agree that the VF-171 is a nerfed fighter (apparently official sources also say that it's not quite up to the standards of the old VF-17). Could the switch to the VF-171 from the VF-19 perhaps be the NUNS way of having a trump card? When your rogue fleet's grunts are using VF-19s, it's a lot more difficult to fight them off, compared to if they're just using VF-171s...
...leaving aside the reason that if Kawamori turned the VF-19 into a grunt cannon fodder mecha the nerd rage would be greater than the NanoFate Legion...
We can't say that VF-171 is an inferior version to VF-17. From what we know it does have improvements. EX is a further modified version, with additional equipment, slightly upped specs. VF-171 was adapted to by a pilot friendly fighter, as well as VF-19.
Well, I don't think that conspiracy VF-19 theory applies here. The most probable reason would be that VF-19 is a pricer unit to mass produce. It may also require more maintence an pricirer parts. There has to be a reason as why did an gramps all powerful VF-19 got replaced by VF-171. I don't think military would go for an inferior Fighter as their main force in combat.
My guess would be that it's old tech design may be harder to adapt to newest technology unlike VF-17 which could be easily modified. Let's not forget that VF-19 was a highly specified Fighter. adaptability was not it's purpose.
Haesslich
2008-10-23, 17:54
We can't say that VF-171 is an inferior version to VF-17. From what we know it does have improvements. EX is a further modified version, with additional equipment, slightly upped specs. VF-171 was adapted to by a pilot friendly fighter, as well as VF-19.
Well, I don't think that conspiracy VF-19 theory applies here. The most probable reason would be that VF-19 is a pricer unit to mass produce. It may also require more maintence an pricirer parts. There has to be a reason as why did an gramps all powerful VF-19 got replaced by VF-171. I don't think military would go for an inferior Fighter as their main force in combat.
My guess would be that it's old tech design may be harder to adapt to newest technology unlike VF-17 which could be easily modified. Let's not forget that VF-19 was a highly specified Fighter. adaptability was not it's purpose.
I suspect this conjecture (it was downgraded) is based on the transformation of the high-performance YF-19 to the somewhat lower-performance VF-19 and the similar changes between the YF-21 to the production VF-22 Sturmvogel II. But it should be noted that the VF-17 Nightmare design didn't appear to be the 'standard' unit with fleets even by the time of Macross 7, which was set in 2046 - but rather was considered to be an 'elite' fighter, perhaps due to its superior performance in space but substandard one in atmosphere.
The main advantages of the -171 series are the fact that it's relatively cheap compared to other VF's with similar multimission capabilities, it is excellent for space-based use, and the usability enhancements secure it a place in the front lines despite the existence of other craft which are better dogfighters (the VF-19, VF-22) in space and atmosphere.
However, the VF-25 appears to be a return to the older philosophy of a multimission fighter, which is complemented by the ease of equipment changes. It does everything the VF-171 does now, but has a better aerodynamic profile for in-atmosphere work, which is necessary once a Macross colonization group settles down on a planet somewhere.
I suspect this conjecture (it was downgraded) is based on the transformation of the high-performance YF-19 to the somewhat lower-performance VF-19 and the similar changes between the YF-21 to the production VF-22 Sturmvogel II.
The Mass Produced VF-19F was an upgrade to the original YF-19. It featured a much more powerfull engines and less mass thus the WtT ratio was much highter. It was also redesigned for the avionics to maximize performance in the space envioroment. It featured much more optional armaments and packs as well as another base version - S type and P Type. VF-19F specs are higher even as a mass production unit then YF-19, not to mention the VF-19S which was a much better unit then the Basara's Red Excalibur.
But it should be noted that the VF-17 Nightmare design didn't appear to be the 'standard' unit with fleets even by the time of Macross 7, which was set in 2046 - but rather was considered to be an 'elite' fighter, perhaps due to its superior performance in space but substandard one in atmosphere.
Well, VF-17 was only a second line fighter.
The main advantages of the -171 series are the fact that it's relatively cheap compared to other VF's with similar multimission capabilities, it is excellent for space-based use, and the usability enhancements secure it a place in the front lines despite the existence of other craft which are better dogfighters (the VF-19, VF-22) in space and atmosphere.
However, the VF-25 appears to be a return to the older philosophy of a multimission fighter, which is complemented by the ease of equipment changes. It does everything the VF-171 does now, but has a better aerodynamic profile for in-atmosphere work, which is necessary once a Macross colonization group settles down on a planet somewhere.
Well, in Macross 7 the VF-17 was a lesser design compared to VF-19 or VF-22. It was cheaper and it's performance was not on par with the 'hero' units. As I said, it served in UN Spacy as a second line fighter. Aside from a Super Pack and an commander S version it didn't receive any modifications so VF-19 was better at handling different missions.
About VF-25. It really can't be compared to the 17 or whatever 19/22 version. It's a class of it's own with those ultra high specs. I agree though, the Messiah has some really deadly eq configurations. We can argue about it's origin though. A Naked VF-25 does not feature any serious armaments. All of it's offensive power comes from the Packs. It's only reasonable to assume that VF-25 is a unit that is meant to fly with the packs not as the previous models which could do semi-well on their own.
I'd say that's a really huge step forward in the VF designs. The unit can be shaped like a low level mmorpg player into anything the user wants and the reconfigured almost instantly into something else.
Haesslich
2008-10-24, 00:46
The Mass Produced VF-19F was an upgrade to the original YF-19. It featured a much more powerfull engines and less mass thus the WtT ratio was much highter. It was also redesigned for the avionics to maximize performance in the space envioroment. It featured much more optional armaments and packs as well as another base version - S type and P Type. VF-19F specs are higher even as a mass production unit then YF-19, not to mention the VF-19S which was a much better unit then the Basara's Red Excalibur.
From what I recall, the engines got boosted as you said (67500 kg versus 72500kg), but the prototype had several systems which were not present with the mass-produced VF-19F: the rear-firing laser turret that was the head isn't listed on the VF-19's specifications, and it had two internal pallets which could carry two micromissile clusters, 2x24 micromissile launchers, or four missiles) and a chaff dispenser which don't appear on the specifications for the VF-19's that appear in Macross 7.
What it did offer was the super pack that FAST pack and the later Spiritia pod. Oh, and the ability to mount Sound Booster units and speaker pods. The Fire Valkyrie also had its g-limiters set to a higher tolerance (+39g versus the +35.5 for the VF-19F/S) and seemed to use an older engine and was about 150 kg lighter than the other configurations... which were themselves 200kg lighter than the prototype. Otherwise the specs were the same or slightly downgraded (weapons loadout), with the exception of more thrust due to newer engines and the lighter weight.
Well, VF-17 was only a second line fighter.
Well, in Macross 7 the VF-17 was a lesser design compared to VF-19 or VF-22. It was cheaper and it's performance was not on par with the 'hero' units. As I said, it served in UN Spacy as a second line fighter. Aside from a Super Pack and an commander S version it didn't receive any modifications so VF-19 was better at handling different missions.
About VF-25. It really can't be compared to the 17 or whatever 19/22 version. It's a class of it's own with those ultra high specs. I agree though, the Messiah has some really deadly eq configurations. We can argue about it's origin though. A Naked VF-25 does not feature any serious armaments. All of it's offensive power comes from the Packs. It's only reasonable to assume that VF-25 is a unit that is meant to fly with the packs not as the previous models which could do semi-well on their own.
I'd say that's a really huge step forward in the VF designs. The unit can be shaped like a low level mmorpg player into anything the user wants and the reconfigured almost instantly into something else.
... it was such a 'second line' fighter that the elite of Macross 7's squadrons, Diamond Force, was using it. The only reason it was becoming 'second line' as far as elites were concerned was because the VF-19 and VF-22 had swung into full production at that point and were replacing it. Up to that stage, it was considered a top-line fighter, especially due to its stealth capabilities. Its main Achilles heel was, as I noted, the fact it performed poorly in atmosphere compared to previous planes due to an less aerodynamic shape.
As discussed in Macross 7, the VF-19 wasn't all that common due to the needs it had for a pilot, and it also was somewhat expensive... while regular 'elites' like Diamond Force got the VF-17; normal pilots flew the VF-11B/C planes. The VF-17 was considered a top-line plane up until the VF-19 came out as a mass-production unit, which itself was eclipsed by the VF-22 which carried an extra energy cannon, a lot of micro-missiles, and the ability to pull +60G's compared to the VF-19's +35G limit... much less the VF-17. But the VF-17 was hardly a 'second line' fighter at that point - it was second-line to the audience due to it not being a hero-plane, but that was about it. The VF-11's served the role the VF-171s do in Macross F: being the plane everyone else flies, and which gets blown up to show that the enemy's dangerous.
And like I said, the VF-25 is a multimission platform which is a throwback to the VF-1 series of planes; the VF-171 is currently serving a similar mission, which is why it's so common in the UN Spacy inventory as of Macross Frontier. Most of the other Variable Fighters we've seen since the original Macross have been fairly specialized planes, with specific missions they were designed for.
The YF-19 and YF-21 of Macross Plus were built to be air/space superiority fighters which could outmaneuver and outshoot any other planes they were sent up against, but weren't really built to be strike fighters or fighter-bombers as they didn't have the missile loadout or heavy armor for it; the VF-11s and VF-4's that preceeded them were built more to be tactical fighters or strike fighters that did two or three missions and that was it (interceptor roles, attacking capital ships, strike missions) with the VF-4 being the more heavily armed of the two. The VF-14 of the movie and the games was described as a 'heavy attack fighter' and carried what looked to be a lot of heavy energy guns and armor.
In Macross 7 you have the VF-17 which is a 'special operations fighter for space combat' due to its good performance in space and fairly heavy armament (two lasers, a turret, heavy gatling pod, 24 micromissiles before adding any Super packs), the VF-19 and VF-22 which are aerospace superiority fighters again that could function well in and out of atmosphere unlike the VF-17, and then the game VF-X-2 brought out the VF-500B Star Mirage with its laser cannon, gun pod, and four micromissile launchers along with the now-iconic VB-6 Konig Monster. Oh, and the VA-3M Invader 'flies underwater' VF.
Looking at all those series, the only general-purpose fighter which isn't specialized more or less for one role is the VF-500B Star Mirage, whose range of armaments and speed make it more or less fill the 'jack of all trades' role that the VF-1 had to do (by necessity) in the First Space War. The VF-25 is a return to the philosophy that planes should be good in most all roles without necessarily needing to be superior in any one function, with the interchangeable packs giving it the extra edge required to perform superbly in dogfighting (Super pack), attack/strike roles (Armored pack), or support functions (Sniper, Recon variants). And best of all, you could give the Sniper rifle to a VF with a Super or Armored pack as needed, or re-equip the Recon variant by letting it land long enough to exchange packs. And, unlike previous versions of the Armored pack, the VF-25 was able to maintain its maneuverability even despite the extra mass of armor and micromissile launchers as well as the ability to transform. A major breakthrough, there. Oh, and it maintains the 'easy to use' functionality that the VF-171 had, as Alto was able to get it going without much trouble despite not having any real flight time in a front-line Valkyrie up until that point; I don't know if he'd have been able to pull off the same things in Episode 2 if a VF-19 or VF-22 had landed there, as he might've been outperformed by the craft, and the VF-19 was notoriously 'touchy'.
Overall, the main breakthrough of the VF-25 isn't its overwhelming performance in terms of speed as compared to other planes so much as its ability to be superior in any role you give it with the right equipment, and still be able to do alright without it because it's not specialized more for one thing than another.
From what I recall, the engines got boosted as you said (67500 kg versus 72500kg), but the prototype had several systems which were not present with the mass-produced VF-19F: the rear-firing laser turret that was the head isn't listed on the VF-19's specifications, and it had two internal pallets which could carry two micromissile clusters, 2x24 micromissile launchers, or four missiles) and a chaff dispenser which don't appear on the specifications for the VF-19's that appear in Macross 7.
If you mean - 1 x small-bore rear anti-aircraft beam gun (mounted center dorsal section in Fighter/GERWALK mode, becomes head turret in Battroid mode) Then both YF-19 and VF-19 has it. Their Standard armament is identical. The only real difference is what I listed below. Aside from that small feature VF-19 is leap improvement.
YF-19
2 x Stonewell/Roice B-7 standard internal pallets (mounted ventral side fuselage in Fighter mode, lower legs in GERWALK/Battroid modes) featuring air-to-air/air-to-ground general-purpose micro-missile pallets, Bifors BMM-24 all-regime high-maneuverability micro-missile cluster, OR 2 x [4 x] B-19A YF-19-exclusive internal weapons pallets.
4 x chaff dispensers (mounted aft)
VF-19F
# 2 x internal Little Rock launch systems featuring 24 x high maneuverability micro-missiles OR 6 x medium-range high maneuverability missiles each (mounted ventral side fuselage in Fighter mode, lower legs in GERWALK/Battroid modes); pallet can be alternately equipped with other weapon packs.
In other words aside from having additional 4x chaff's and an exclusive internal weapon pallets it does not posses much more firepower. Especially that the VF-19 pallets can be left on the plane while having other Packs equipped.
What it did offer was the super pack that FAST pack and the later Spiritia pod. Oh, and the ability to mount Sound Booster units and speaker pods. The Fire Valkyrie also had its g-limiters set to a higher tolerance (+39g versus the +35.5 for the VF-19F/S) and seemed to use an older engine and was about 150 kg lighter than the other configurations... which were themselves 200kg lighter than the prototype. Otherwise the specs were the same or slightly downgraded (weapons loadout), with the exception of more thrust due to newer engines and the lighter weight.
Let's not go over the top with descriptions and stray off from the main point. :heh:
... it was such a 'second line' fighter that the elite of Macross 7's squadrons, Diamond Force, was using it. The only reason it was becoming 'second line' as far as elites were concerned was because the VF-19 and VF-22 had swung into full production at that point and were replacing it. Up to that stage, it was considered a top-line fighter, especially due to its stealth capabilities. Its main Achilles heel was, as I noted, the fact it performed poorly in atmosphere compared to previous planes due to an less aerodynamic shape.
Well, VF-17 is larger, heavier and slower. It's a unit that was used as a fighting force because it was indeed more useful then Thunderbolt. Still, it had a lot of limitation which was the reason why Project Supernova fired up. It just never met the requirements that the UN Spacey had for a next gen fighter. VF-19 covered that area later on. Simply put :heh:
//until the VF-19 came out as a mass-production unit, which itself was eclipsed by the VF-22 which carried an extra energy cannon, a lot of micro-missiles, and the ability to pull +60G's compared to the VF-19's +35G limit... much less the VF-17.
I always wondered about those g. limits in VF-22. It's a lot heavier then VF-19F has considerably less thrust force and thus a much weaker TtW ratio. It can withstand more G.Force while turning or performing maneuvers but with those specs it still falls behind in dogfight. Besides, this additional mass is a major drawback when performing said maneuvers. I say this G.Limit is to withstand a 1 ton mass increase of an empty plane + some armament bonuses simply.
I never saw VF-22 as a better unit then VF-19. It's different but it's hard to say which one is better suited for you, with those specs.
The VF-25 is a return to the philosophy that planes should be good in most all roles without necessarily needing to be superior in any one function, with the interchangeable packs giving it the extra edge required to perform superbly in dogfighting (Super pack), attack/strike roles (Armored pack), or support functions (Sniper, Recon variants). And best of all, you could give the Sniper rifle to a VF with a Super or Armored pack as needed, or re-equip the Recon variant by letting it land long enough to exchange packs. And, unlike previous versions of the Armored pack, the VF-25 was able to maintain its maneuverability even despite the extra mass of armor and micromissile launchers as well as the ability to transform. A major breakthrough, there. Oh, and it maintains the 'easy to use' functionality that the VF-171 had, as Alto was able to get it going without much trouble despite not having any real flight time in a front-line Valkyrie up until that point.//
//Overall, the main breakthrough of the VF-25 isn't its overwhelming performance in terms of speed as compared to other planes so much as its ability to be superior in any role you give it with the right equipment, and still be able to do alright without it because it's not specialized more for one thing than another.
But it is it's performance. It has 2x the thrust of VF-19 and around 2.5x the thrust of VF-22 while having less mass then VF-19 and the Sumo VF-22. In addition all of those specs are boosted by it's super FAST Pack to such an extent that it produces so much g.force that it's almost irrational. There were some calculations on another board that with super FAST pack the g. forces produced go well over 90. An assumption based on the comparison between the power of a VF-1 and it's FAST pack power.
If you gain additional verniers, armor, and weapons with a Full Armor pack and still have 2x the thrust of VF-19 then I can't possibly imagine how long would a 19 last against such an oponent.
VF-25 is indeed tuned with the technology and interface the VF-19/22 lacks. It's only natural that it's an improvement as the world goes on with it's Fighter development. Besides I don't know what kind of maniac would think that ne next line fighters would be less pilot friendly with the technology progress. It probably is easier to handle then Vf-19 but it most certainly ouperforms it as well as 22 in every aspect.
Haesslich
2008-10-24, 02:47
If you mean - 1 x small-bore rear anti-aircraft beam gun (mounted center dorsal section in Fighter/GERWALK mode, becomes head turret in Battroid mode) Then both YF-19 and VF-19 has it. Their Standard armament is identical. The only real difference is what I listed below. Aside from that small feature VF-19 is leap improvement.
YF-19
2 x Stonewell/Roice B-7 standard internal pallets (mounted ventral side fuselage in Fighter mode, lower legs in GERWALK/Battroid modes) featuring air-to-air/air-to-ground general-purpose micro-missile pallets, Bifors BMM-24 all-regime high-maneuverability micro-missile cluster, OR 2 x [4 x] B-19A YF-19-exclusive internal weapons pallets.
4 x chaff dispensers (mounted aft)
VF-19F
# 2 x internal Little Rock launch systems featuring 24 x high maneuverability micro-missiles OR 6 x medium-range high maneuverability missiles each (mounted ventral side fuselage in Fighter mode, lower legs in GERWALK/Battroid modes); pallet can be alternately equipped with other weapon packs.
In other words aside from having additional 4x chaff's and an exclusive internal weapon pallets it does not posses much more firepower. Especially that the VF-19 pallets can be left on the plane while having other Packs equipped.
As I said before, the Super pack was the main thing the production had over the one that the prototype had (which, IIRC, was just a booster pack along the lines of the one the VF-25S used). Of course, the lightening of the airframe probably (along with the change of vernier thruster to the 7R versus the 6H) may have helped goost the maximum speed in space up some. But as for the prototype, I recall the micromissile packs getting a lot of use by Isamu.
Well, VF-17 is larger, heavier and slower. It's a unit that was used as a fighting force because it was indeed more useful then Thunderbolt. Still, it had a lot of limitation which was the reason why Project Supernova fired up. It just never met the requirements that the UN Spacey had for a next gen fighter. VF-19 covered that area later on. Simply put :heh:
And, as I said earlier, it wasn't exactly a second-line fighter; it was superseded by the VF-19 and VF-22 as an aerospace superiority fighter as both of them could pull more G's and were faster craft (which is important for intercepting the enemy as well as in pursuit), but it was still 'elite' until better planes showed up. The VF-11 was the 'standard' fighter for many Macross fleets as of 2045 from what we could see with the VF-4 having gone to second-line status as an older fighter.
If the 'elite' of Diamond Force were using it, it definitely wasn't second-line; it was an elite grunt plane, but not an ace's fighter... nor was it as demanding of the pilot as the better planes were.
I always wondered about those g. limits in VF-22. It's a lot heavier then VF-19F has considerably less thrust force and thus a much weaker TtW ratio. It can withstand more G.Force while turning or performing maneuvers but with those specs it still falls behind in dogfight. Besides, this additional mass is a major drawback when performing said maneuvers. I say this G.Limit is to withstand a 1 ton mass increase of an empty plane + some armament bonuses simply.
I never saw VF-22 as a better unit then VF-19. It's different but it's hard to say which one is better suited for you, with those specs.
The G-limits are probably more due to the strength of the frame as well as any limiters programmed into the computers; basically if it exceeds those, it's likely to either a) kill the pilot, or b) tear the plane apart. Remembering that the YF-21 was superior on paper to the YF-19, and this is the version that dumped the flexible wing and mind-controlled systems, it still only has a ton extra mass compared to the VF-21 (9.5 tons versus 8.5 tons) and the YF-21 had comparable thrust to the upgraded YF-19... which for the Roice-FF 2450B engines was 65200 per engine, which puts it about 10000kg per engine as far as output goes on the 2500F's the VF-19 uses.
I'd have to say the advantages that the VF-22 enjoys over the VF-19 are the better armament loadout (three energy cannons to the two lasers on the VF-19, and 'many' micromissiles which seem to have been borrowed from the Zentradi Queadlunn-Rau design it was based on (although I doubt it packs the full 126 missiles that did). The main issue with the VF-19 was that it was so demanding of the pilot that a lesser pilot whose skills weren't up to the task would likely kill himself flying it if not crash the plane... as everyone up to Isamu Dyson did in Plus. And if it can pull tighter turns to get an angle on the enemy, the speed it moves with is less of an issue than if it can line up a shot on the target.
//Overall, the main breakthrough of the VF-25 isn't its overwhelming performance in terms of speed as compared to other planes so much as its ability to be superior in any role you give it with the right equipment, and still be able to do alright without it because it's not specialized more for one thing than another.
But it is it's performance. It has 2x the thrust of VF-19 and around 2.5x the thrust of VF-22 while having less mass then VF-19 and the Sumo VF-22. In addition all of those specs are boosted by it's super FAST Pack to such an extent that it produces so much g.force that it's almost irrational. There were some calculations on another board that with super FAST pack the g. forces produced go well over 90. An assumption based on the comparison between the power of a VF-1 and it's FAST pack power.
If you gain additional verniers, armor, and weapons with a Full Armor pack and still have 2x the thrust of VF-19 then I can't possibly imagine how long would a 19 last against such an oponent.
VF-25 is indeed tuned with the technology and interface the VF-19/22 lacks. It's only natural that it's an improvement as the world goes on with it's Fighter development. Besides I don't know what kind of maniac would think that ne next line fighters would be less pilot friendly with the technology progress. It probably is easier to handle then Vf-19 but it most certainly ouperforms it as well as 22 in every aspect.
It's not its overwhelming performance which makes it special (even if the technological leap required to allow it to make such gains in thrust-to-weight ratio and maneuverability are), but its ability to fulfill any role required of it just by switching a few pieces of equipment out. It basically, by itself, has the ability to replace almost every specialized plane in the NUNS inventory... while being easy enough to handle that you don't have to be Max Jenius, Isamu Dyson, Guld Bowman, or Basara Nekki to fly it and use it well, or even to avoid killing yourself the way the top-performing fighters of Macross Plus and Macross 7 did.
The problem with the VF-19 and VF-22 wasn't just cost, but that if a less-skilled pilot flew those planes, he or she would either crash and burn as they couldn't cope with the plane's sensitivity due to slower reflexes or a less-developed flying sense, or would be unable to really take advantage of the extra speed and maneuverability to fly better than they would in a VF-11 The VF-171's ability to act in a multimission capability with 'okay' performance combined with its price is what makes it so useful the the NUNS now, as well as being forgiving enough as a platform that a minor mistake or not being quite as fast on the reflex tests as Max Jenius wouldn't mean your career would end in a fireball on a flight deck. The VF-25, by not being so 'fine-tuned' as those other planes despite having the ability to fly faster than either of them, means that you don't have to be a skilled ace who has hundreds of hours in the cockpit to successfully use one in a dogfight... but if you are an ace, the extra performance means you can take advantage of the plane's full potential. Look at how Ozma was handling his plane in episode 7; despite having only the performance of a 'normal' VF-25 he was able to effectively fly rings around Alto who was technically his better in terms of speed and maneuverability. But at the same time, the fighter could compensate for his relative lack of talent to make him effective without being so 'high-strung' that a second's inattention would cause him to lose control.
And by being able to dogfight, do attack fighter duty, and by being able to refit within a few minutes due to extremely modular construction would be able to replace the VF-171's, VF-19's, and VF-14's along with any other 'specialty' craft the NUNS has... and in doing so simplify the logistics chain a lot, as they could use the same parts for most of their planes, and also make planning missions somewhat easier as they wouldn't have to necessarily send in a carrier that had room for all the different plane types into an operation; just keep a smaller ship with the packs handy and refit squadrons as needed.
It's versatile in much the same way the VF-1 was versatile, while improving performance in almost every area... and by adding the right pack, it becomes a dominating (as well as cost-effective) platform.
As I said before, the Super pack was the main thing the production had over the one that the prototype had (which, IIRC, was just a booster pack along the lines of the one the VF-25S used). Of course, the lightening of the airframe probably (along with the change of vernier thruster to the 7R versus the 6H) may have helped goost the maximum speed in space up some. But as for the prototype, I recall the micromissile packs getting a lot of use by Isamu.
Well, I agree that armaments wise there is little difference between the Prototype and the actual Mass Production model. It's understandable that the production model has side armament Packs unlike the prototype so no surprise there. Still, it is very important to notice this thrust increase. Considering it's adaptation to space and the quality of space environment it is a great improvement. Atmospheric wise the fighters 'could' perform the same I assume, though we can't diss the space modification. In that area YF model could be better.
And well, we can argue about weapons vs. maneuverability/speed. I'd say no amount of weapons will do any good if the target is able to dodge all of them with superior turning ability. That's how I see the Production model to the Prototype.
And, as I said earlier, it wasn't exactly a second-line fighter; it was superseded by the VF-19 and VF-22 as an aerospace superiority fighter as both of them could pull more G's and were faster craft (which is important for intercepting the enemy as well as in pursuit), but it was still 'elite' until better planes showed up. The VF-11 was the 'standard' fighter for many Macross fleets as of 2045 from what we could see with the VF-4 having gone to second-line status as an older fighter.
If the 'elite' of Diamond Force were using it, it definitely wasn't second-line; it was an elite grunt plane, but not an ace's fighter... nor was it as demanding of the pilot as the better planes were.
With the success of the flight tests, the U.N. Spacy adopted the VF-17 as a second line variable mecha and included squadrons on many of the colonization fleets, notably the 37th long-distance colonization fleet lead by the 7th New Macross-Class battleship in 2038.
Considering it's adaptation into the U.N. Spacey it was second line to begin with. It may have not been used as such because of the fact that exchanging all of the fleets Fighters takes time. Having been given a new, improved to the Thunderbolt unit the fleet naturally assigns it as an elite unit even if it's meant to be replaced soon with a better fighter.
That's the most probable outcome imo. aside from the better spec wise to the Thunderbolt aspect of VF-17 there is nothing first line about it. It was meant to be replaced so it was not the core of the military.
The G-limits are probably more due to the strength of the frame as well as any limiters programmed into the computers; basically if it exceeds those, it's likely to either a) kill the pilot, or b) tear the plane apart. Remembering that the YF-21 was superior on paper to the YF-19, and this is the version that dumped the flexible wing and mind-controlled systems, it still only has a ton extra mass compared to the VF-21 (9.5 tons versus 8.5 tons) and the YF-21 had comparable thrust to the upgraded YF-19... which for the Roice-FF 2450B engines was 65200 per engine, which puts it about 10000kg per engine as far as output goes on the 2500F's the VF-19 uses.
I'd say that one ton of mass more with less thrust force is a VERY bad feature to have on your fighter. Especially if that mass increase is as much as 1/8 of the plane.
Verniers or not, moving a 1 ton of mass more and accelerating it with a far lesser engine into maneuvers comparable to YF-19 is somewhat, impossible. This is an irregularity that I see in 22's design. Even if it has it's flexible wings the gravity is an omnipresent force. There is no escaping this fact.
However, it it's engines output and, ack, vernier output is released into a different level with releasing those limiters then it 'could' be possible to pull something similar or greater then VF-19. Then again, if it costs the machine or the pilot it's useless.
I'd have to say the advantages that the VF-22 enjoys over the VF-19 are the better armament loadout (three energy cannons to the two lasers on the VF-19, and 'many' micromissiles which seem to have been borrowed from the Zentradi Queadlunn-Rau design it was based on (although I doubt it packs the full 126 missiles that did). The main issue with the VF-19 was that it was so demanding of the pilot that a lesser pilot whose skills weren't up to the task would likely kill himself flying it if not crash the plane... as everyone up to Isamu Dyson did in Plus. And if it can pull tighter turns to get an angle on the enemy, the speed it moves with is less of an issue than if it can line up a shot on the target.
Speed is an extremely important issue in every dogfight. It's more of an issue in a Macross air combat. Speed that comes out of the Weight-to-Thrust ratio is one aspect of this stat. Acceleration, deceleration and turning ability is determined by that statistic. As I said above. I simply can't see how 22 can pull anything close to 19 with it's specs unless it releases it's limiters. It is possible it come close by using those wings. This statement is solely based in it's specs not on what we saw in the anime.
It's not its overwhelming performance which makes it special (even if the technological leap required to allow it to make such gains in thrust-to-weight ratio and maneuverability are), but its ability to fulfill any role required of it just by switching a few pieces of equipment out. It basically, by itself, has the ability to replace almost every specialized plane in the NUNS inventory... while being easy enough to handle that you don't have to be Max Jenius, Isamu Dyson, Guld Bowman, or Basara Nekki to fly it and use it well, or even to avoid killing yourself the way the top-performing fighters of Macross Plus and Macross 7 did.
I agree. The revolution comes from how it's able to be modified, adapted and tuned to be a perfect pilot girlfriend of space metal. It's understandable that it's performance leap is natural though it's clear we just have to notice just how much it improved.
The VF-25, by not being so 'fine-tuned' as those other planes despite having the ability to fly faster than either of them, means that you don't have to be a skilled ace who has hundreds of hours in the cockpit to successfully use one in a dogfight... but if you are an ace, the extra performance means you can take advantage of the plane's full potential. Look at how Ozma was handling his plane in episode 7; despite having only the performance of a 'normal' VF-25 he was able to effectively fly rings around Alto who was technically his better in terms of speed and maneuverability.
That certainly is true. Only an Ace can go to the limit of a machines performance and take it even further. This takes us back to my previous post that was seemingly forgotten by the users of this forum. Ozma pilots VF-25S and as we all know the S Variation has improvements all over the frame, as well as fine tuned engine that boosts the performance. I wonder just how much better the S version is over the standard F. We don't have any solid info right now unfortunately.
It's also good to see that Alto managed to get a hit on Ozma's Full Armor VF-25S with VF-171EX.
PS. This thread starts to resemble the Macross Mecha Discussion Thread. I think it would be better to move all of this into the rightfull place. :heh:
ChronoReverse
2008-10-24, 14:01
The reason why the YF-21 could usually match up the YF-19 is two-fold.
The first is that both have ultimate accelerations far far higher than what the pilots can withstand. This is why both pretty much have the same _practical_ acceleration.
The other reason is because the YF-21 had the inertial vectoring system (one reason why it was heavier in the first place). This is the same system that allowed the QRaus to have unparalleled space maneuverability and very high atmospheric maneuverability (where it really should have maneuvered like a pig). The fully 3-D thrust vectoring and deforming+folding wings were just bonus.
With that said, the YF-19 ultimately does have an edge over the YF-21. As for the VF-19F vs the VF-22, they really dropped the ball on it XD
Haesslich
2008-10-24, 17:51
Well, I agree that armaments wise there is little difference between the Prototype and the actual Mass Production model. It's understandable that the production model has side armament Packs unlike the prototype so no surprise there. Still, it is very important to notice this thrust increase. Considering it's adaptation to space and the quality of space environment it is a great improvement. Atmospheric wise the fighters 'could' perform the same I assume, though we can't diss the space modification. In that area YF model could be better.
And well, we can argue about weapons vs. maneuverability/speed. I'd say no amount of weapons will do any good if the target is able to dodge all of them with superior turning ability. That's how I see the Production model to the Prototype.
The YF-19 and YF-21 ultimately could both move faster than was safe for the pilots, but from what I could see the shape-changing wing and the vector-thrusting that was a legacy of the Queadlunn-Rau design the YF-21 was based on made a huge difference with regards to the manueverability of the YF-21. VF-19's faster, but the VF-22 dives and climbs harder, and seems to turn better even if it has less overall thrust, and so can (especially with the larger number of micromissiles we saw Guld use) box a target in to kill it faster.
Considering it's adaptation into the U.N. Spacey it was second line to begin with. It may have not been used as such because of the fact that exchanging all of the fleets Fighters takes time. Having been given a new, improved to the Thunderbolt unit the fleet naturally assigns it as an elite unit even if it's meant to be replaced soon with a better fighter.
That's the most probable outcome imo. aside from the better spec wise to the Thunderbolt aspect of VF-17 there is nothing first line about it. It was meant to be replaced so it was not the core of the military.
Not a core, but still it was used with the elites, and Gamlin along with Diamond Force ended up flying the buggers as the VF-19's and VF-22's were only starting to come into service at this point (2045, or about five years after the ATF competitions which resulted in the final decision. Not a bad pace compared to real-life procurement processes. And you'll note that the VF-11 Thunderbolt was still considered a mainline fighter, as the VF-171 is in the 'current' (2059) timeframe.
I'd say that one ton of mass more with less thrust force is a VERY bad feature to have on your fighter. Especially if that mass increase is as much as 1/8 of the plane.
Verniers or not, moving a 1 ton of mass more and accelerating it with a far lesser engine into maneuvers comparable to YF-19 is somewhat, impossible. This is an irregularity that I see in 22's design. Even if it has it's flexible wings the gravity is an omnipresent force. There is no escaping this fact.
However, it it's engines output and, ack, vernier output is released into a different level with releasing those limiters then it 'could' be possible to pull something similar or greater then VF-19. Then again, if it costs the machine or the pilot it's useless.
Gravity is an insignificant force in space combat unless you're close to a planet's gravity well, and the deforming wings were supposed to help it in-atmosphere. The rear-facing canard just above the cockpit would've reduced the VF-19's maximum speed in atmosphere somewhat (which may be reflected in the stats that show it having a significant drop in speed compared to space) as it did with the VF-11. The biggest advantage for the VF-22/YF-21 based on how it heavily borrowed elements from the Queadlunn-Rau and other Zentradi power armor was that it was MUCH more maneuverable in space, and could literally turn on a dime while packing a lot of missiles.
In atmosphere, it could do very well... but at the same time the VF-19 did have an edge due to the way its wings and canard were set up, from what I could tell, and Isamu pushed it to its very limits.
Speed is an extremely important issue in every dogfight. It's more of an issue in a Macross air combat. Speed that comes out of the Weight-to-Thrust ratio is one aspect of this stat. Acceleration, deceleration and turning ability is determined by that statistic. As I said above. I simply can't see how 22 can pull anything close to 19 with it's specs unless it releases it's limiters. It is possible it come close by using those wings. This statement is solely based in it's specs not on what we saw in the anime.
Speed's important for catching up with a target - but maneuverability comes heavily into play, and the VF-22 system seems to excel with that due to its thrusters and everything else it stole from the Zentradi designs. Of course, considering who founded General Galaxy, 'stole' is probably the wrong term to use with them. Speed is really important in intercept and pursuit missions where you have to catch up with or just catch a target - it lets you pull into range faster to fight. With BARCAP and FORCAP roles, it's less important than being able to maneuver and just latch onto the enemy craft... which Bowman and later Max and Millia managed to do very well with these superior craft.
Of course, we're going well into the Mecha thread discussion territory, so you're right - best to stop here. :D
That certainly is true. Only an Ace can go to the limit of a machines performance and take it even further. This takes us back to my previous post that was seemingly forgotten by the users of this forum. Ozma pilots VF-25S and as we all know the S Variation has improvements all over the frame, as well as fine tuned engine that boosts the performance. I wonder just how much better the S version is over the standard F. We don't have any solid info right now unfortunately.
It's also good to see that Alto managed to get a hit on Ozma's Full Armor VF-25S with VF-171EX.
PS. This thread starts to resemble the Macross Mecha Discussion Thread. I think it would be better to move all of this into the rightfull place. :heh:
As for the VF-25S, the stats we have so far to compare with the VF-25F don't show any real difference performance-wise between the two, although historically pilots with squadron leader mecha tended to have better performance and maintenance done on the vehicles. Whether this was due to it being the squadron leader's mecha, or the squadron leaders historically being the best pilots (thus being able to pull more out of the mecha) is the question. The main thing that amazed Alto was that the Super pack, which was designed for extra performance in space combat, was not giving him an automatic edge over Ozma with the 'heavy Armored pack' that added four beam guns (on the shoulders), all those extra micromissile launchers, a radar unit for them, and extra armor plating on what would become the torso and arms and legs of the mecha (also containing micromissiles).
Of course, Alto slowly catches up with Ozma... but usually only when he's truly pissed off, or a friend's in danger. At that point the gloves come off and he apparently becomes an insane instinctive pilot with good reflexes. You'd almost think he has Zentradi blood in him...
ReddyRedWolf
2008-11-17, 08:25
Okay unto interracial hybrids.
We know due to the loss of most of the human populace and the addition of the Zentradi to human society, hybrids are a inevitable fact.
Then comes in the Zolans. Supposedly they are marsupials and can't have kids with humans.
Apparently not! According to the Macross Choronicle one side of Michel Blanc's family has Zolan blood. Either it is possible due to the Protoculture leaving enough genetic manipulation for a hybrid or a human attempt at genetic manipulation for a human-Zolan hybrid.
One parent of Michel is a Zolan hybrid.
Bunch heres the clincher. Michel also has Zentradi blood on the other side of his geneology. Also a hybrid.
So Michel has the genetic inheritance of humans, Zentradi and Zolans.
Which makes you wonder if the Protoculture had this in mind all along due to an episode of Macross 7 emphasizing hybrids as Signs of Peace.
squaresphere
2008-11-17, 16:17
makes sense, as the problem they had with the Zentradi was that they only knew how to fight and relied on bio factories to make new soldiers. Not to mention they lived in sex separated fleets.
The Zolans, I don't know about. Obviously the protoculture had a reason to make the Zentradi, the Zolan I have no idea other than maybe they were a "prototype" zentradi that didn't pan out or they were a result of the seeding program that we saw from the birdman in M0.
Heh, in the OVAs, the Zolans certainly look human enough to errr... interbreed.
And I hate the fact that they had this beautiful Zolan in one of the OVAs, then have her appear for... gosh, 2 episodes? Give me a break!
Although I would not be surprised if the Zolans were modified enough by Protoculture that regardless of their evolutionary origins, they were modified to contain human reproductive organs.
- Tak
Wild Goose
2008-11-22, 10:29
Isn't Mikhail part Zolan, IIRC?
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