Fate/stay night Game discussion (Warning: Spoilers)

[DragoZERO]

NTR is short for netorare. HF isn't true NTR, but you get the same feeling, so yeah.

[JuGG]

Horray! A new fan has joined the fray. XD

Just out of curiosity, have you watched Realta Nua's Last Episode? I strongly urge you to watch Realta Nua's Last Episode...
Finished the last episode a few minutes ago and got the extra CGs. A nice little extra epilogue but slightly too vague to have any strong effect on the outcome of the plot. But it's still sweet for Saber fans. Nice art too. :)
That pretty much cuts out most of it...

GAAAH!!! That makes Saber the worst!
Not possible! Saber isn't the worst! Grr.

And as for Kitomine killing Lancer's master I still thought that she was the master in question. I know that would have sucked for your fave char but I had this feeling (at the end of Fate) that Ayako was his master and that in Rin's branch you were going to fight against her in a kind-of arch rival fashion. Seems I was very far off the mark in that regard but I still think it would have been fun. :heh:

[RadiantBeam]

And as for Kitomine killing Lancer's master I still thought that she was the master in question. I know that would have sucked for your fave char but I had this feeling (at the end of Fate) that Ayako was his master and that in Rin's branch you were going to fight against her in a kind-of arch rival fashion. Seems I was very far off the mark in that regard but I still think it would have been fun. :heh:

Actually, it seems pretty popular in the fandom that if Lancer has a Master who isn't Kotomine, it turns out to be Taiga. :heh: There's quite a bit of fanart focused on it, if I remember right, though I don't recall if anyone's ever actually made it into a fic yet.

[Malkuth]

Sakura route is NTR? LOL, how so

Shinji is the boyfriend and Shirou the lover or vice versa :p

Anyway, independent of appearance (Rin wins there), IMHO Sakura is the most complicated and interesting character.

[DragoZERO]

Sakura route is NTR? LOL, how so

Shinji is the boyfriend and Shirou the lover or vice versa :p

Anyway, independent of appearance (Rin wins there), IMHO Sakura is the most complicated and interesting character.
I'll clarify a bit...
NTR is short for netorare. HF isn't true NTR, but you get the same feeling, so yeah.

[JuGG]

Actually, it seems pretty popular in the fandom that if Lancer has a Master who isn't Kotomine, it turns out to be Taiga. :heh: There's quite a bit of fanart focused on it, if I remember right, though I don't recall if anyone's ever actually made it into a fic yet.
That'd be pretty cool and I'm surprised that fanfics haven't covered that. :confused: Life would certainly get complicated for Shirou with yet another Master sharing his home.

[Moczo]

And there we go! It took far more effort and time than it should have, but I finally got an install of the game with the voice acting. Combined with the Realta Nua CG patch, I now have the most complete FSN install possible. :D


... ... ... God, reading it again seems like it would be a lot of work. But I have it, that's the key thing!

[DragoZERO]

I wish you said something about adding the voices... I could have made it a lot easier for you.

[Moczo]

I wish you said something about adding the voices... I could have made it a lot easier for you.

This was something I needed to do by myself. A great battle for me to complete, a trial to overcome. To accept aid would be admitting weakness.

[GDB]

... ... ... God, reading it again seems like it would be a lot of work. But I have it, that's the key thing!

Could always just set it to fast-forward, and make the route choices. There's no CG in Bad Ends, so you only need to do the main routes. Putting it on FF only makes it take like an hour max to finish out the CGs you missed.

[Moczo]

Could always just set it to fast-forward, and make the route choices. There's no CG in Bad Ends, so you only need to do the main routes. Putting it on FF only makes it take like an hour max to finish out the CGs you missed.

I've seen the CGs. I want to hear the voice acting, unfortunately. Which means I need to read that bastard one. More. Time.

[JuGG]

I've seen the CGs. I want to hear the voice acting, unfortunately. Which means I need to read that bastard one. More. Time.
Not particularly a bad thing. It should be pretty enjoyable I'm sure. :D
I got the RN patch but still have no voices for my version. :( How did you get the voices and does the voice patch remove all the H-scenes?

Also, my version sometimes errors a bit in some of the text. QQ Now I feel like I have to figure a way out to play the full version that you've got.

[RadiantBeam]

I got the RN patch but still have no voices for my version. :( How did you get the voices and does the voice patch remove all the H-scenes?

For me I downloaded the original game, but the version I got had the voice patch with it, so I could actually hear the characters speaking. So you'd probably need to install a new version with a voice patch.

[Haak]

This was something I needed to do by myself. A great battle for me to complete, a trial to overcome. To accept aid would be admitting weakness.

Wow, and all it took me was one download. All I can do now is to point and laugh...

*Enters douchebag mode*


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

[Moczo]

Wow, and all it took me was one download. All I can do now is to point and laugh...

*Enters douchebag mode*


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

... Shut up.

[DragoZERO]

Wow, and all it took me was one download. All I can do now is to point and laugh...Yes, mine was already patched with the translation and voice. I just had to add RN... which I heard about after I finished the game. :heh:

[RadiantBeam]

Same here. :heh: Perhaps the only problem I ran into was trying to get the game to run properly on my laptop, and that was mainly because I didn't have the proper programs to get it to open.

[Cherry_Lover]

I'll clarify a bit...

NTR is short for netorare. HF isn't true NTR, but you get the same feeling, so yeah.


In what way? How does HF in any way feel like that?

[RadiantBeam]

In what way? How does HF in any way feel like that?

Well, you know, on some very twisted kind of level, one could argue Shirou was jealous of Angra Manyu. I mean, it was trying to take Sakura away from him and everything!

[DragoZERO]

In what way? How does HF in any way feel like that?If you don't know then there is no hope in explaining it.

Well, you know, on some very twisted kind of level, one could argue Shirou was jealous of Angra Manyu. I mean, it was trying to take Sakura away from him and everything!:heh:

[Cherry_Lover]

If you don't know then there is no hope in explaining it.

So, what you're saying is that it is, in fact, not in any way NTR-like (but for some unfathomable reason you perceive it to be), and thus you can't explain it to me because you know damn well I'll disagree totally with your interpretation?

Because that's the only reason I can see why you wouldn't be able to even make an attempt at explaining it.

Unless you're claiming it's NTR because Sakura is "stealing" Shirou from Rin or Saber, in which case that's just plain ridiculous. If it was at all, then the other two routes must be even more so, since Sakura is far more in love with Shirou prior to the game than Rin.

[Kanon]

Unless you're claiming it's NTR because Sakura is "stealing" Shirou from Rin or Saber, in which case that's just plain ridiculous. If it was at all, then the other two routes must be even more so, since Sakura is far more in love with Shirou prior to the game than Rin.

:heh: :heh:

I assume what DragoZERO means by HF having pseudo NTR is that your "waifu" Sakura gets raped daily by penis-worms and her douchebag of an adoptive brother. What do you feel when you think about that? Rage. That's the same feeling you get while reading/watching NTR (personally, these things leave me completely indifferent). That's it.

[DragoZERO]

So, what you're saying is that it is, in fact, not in any way NTR-like (but for some unfathomable reason you perceive it to be), and thus you can't explain it to me because you know damn well I'll disagree totally with your interpretation?

Because that's the only reason I can see why you wouldn't be able to even make an attempt at explaining it.

Unless you're claiming it's NTR because Sakura is "stealing" Shirou from Rin or Saber, in which case that's just plain ridiculous. If it was at all, then the other two routes must be even more so, since Sakura is far more in love with Shirou prior to the game than Rin.Well, we were talking about feelings, which is something difficult to explain and so I decided not to waste my time with and prevent any arguing and such. So, I thank you for your one point neg rep.

I assume what DragoZERO means by HF having pseudo NTR is that your "waifu" Sakura gets raped daily by penis-worms and her douchebag of an adoptive brother. What do you feel when you think about that? Rage. That's the same feeling you get while reading/watching NTR (personally, these things leave me completely indifferent). That's it.Yes, exactly. It incurs deep jealously from the reader/viewer.

[Cherry_Lover]

:heh: :heh:

I assume what DragoZERO means by HF having pseudo NTR is that your "waifu" Sakura gets raped daily by penis-worms and her douchebag of an adoptive brother. What do you feel when you think about that? Rage. That's the same feeling you get while reading/watching NTR (personally, these things leave me completely indifferent). That's it.

Well, I guess that fits in a sense, although in NTR it generally happens the other way around, and the girl doesn't actually end up with the guy she "should" be with, whereas in HF she's raped and abused before she gets with Shirou, and Shinji's only attempt at "rectifying" this ends very badly.

And, plus, whilst it does cause rage, the rage is more at "Sakura has been abused" than at "someone else fucked my waifu" (I hope, anyway...).

[RadiantBeam]

And, plus, whilst it does cause rage, the rage is more at "Sakura has been abused" than at "someone else fucked my waifu" (I hope, anyway...).

Sad but true story. :heh: You forget, FSN appeals to a wide demographic of players. For every person that goes "Holy shit, those bastards hurt Sakura!" you have another person who goes "Holy shit, someone else fucked my perfectly submissive waifu! Only I can do that!"

[Haak]

I recall hearing of an actually psychological study that concluded guys feel less attracted to their partners if they found out that they've been raped becuase they feel they've now been 'used'. Horrible, I know. I don't remember if it actually had any grounding however, but it might be the same logic behind preffering virgins.

[Moczo]

................................... Is it wrong of me to think that Ayako's voice sounds more like a prepubescent boy than it does a girl?

[JuGG]

Wow this thread has gone a strange direction. :p
Sad but true story. :heh: You forget, FSN appeals to a wide demographic of players. For every person that goes "Holy shit, those bastards hurt Sakura!" you have another person who goes "Holy shit, someone else fucked my perfectly submissive waifu! Only I can do that!"
I recall hearing of an actually psychological study that concluded guys feel less attracted to their partners if they found out that they've been raped becuase they feel they've now been 'used'. Horrible, I know. I don't remember if it actually had any grounding however, but it might be the same logic behind preffering virgins.
I suppose there is that kind of audience but it worries me. I suppose people are welcome to enjoy their games/literature anyway they like. :uhoh: As for that study: instinctively any male would prefer a virginal (sp?) female because the chances of complications, diseases, and miscarriage/any form of failure in child-birth are (most likely) lessened. But I imagine most guys can go past instinctual feelings and base their attraction/relationships on the actual girl rather than her sexual history/future. I hope. :)
................................... Is it wrong of me to think that Ayako's voice sounds more like a prepubescent boy than it does a girl?
Hehe, personally I found Archer's voice the funniest. When the hell did Shirou deepen his voice that much. ;)

[DragoZERO]

And, plus, whilst it does cause rage, the rage is more at "Sakura has been abused" than at "someone else fucked my waifu" (I hope, anyway...).There is rage in both.

Sad but true story. :heh: You forget, FSN appeals to a wide demographic of players. For every person that goes "Holy shit, those bastards hurt Sakura!" you have another person who goes "Holy shit, someone else fucked my perfectly submissive waifu! Only I can do that!"Both. The "waifu" thing apply in the sense that you identify yourself with the main character.

I recall hearing of an actually psychological study that concluded guys feel less attracted to their partners if they found out that they've been raped becuase they feel they've now been 'used'. Horrible, I know. I don't remember if it actually had any grounding however, but it might be the same logic behind preffering virgins.Not only will they feel they have used used and tainted, but they are no longer theirs only. Humans like to have possession of something that is unique to them. This is human nature once you get down to it, people are selfish with those they love, whether they are male or female, it's why marriage is such an important thing.

And I am very selfish.

I suppose there is that kind of audience but it worries me. I suppose people are welcome to enjoy their games/literature anyway they like. :uhoh: As for that study: instinctively any male would prefer a virginal (sp?) female because the chances of complications, diseases, and miscarriage/any form of failure in child-birth are (most likely) lessened. But I imagine most guys can go past instinctual feelings and base their attraction/relationships on the actual girl rather than her sexual history/future. I hope. :)It's not so much the physical aspect but just knowing the girl is theirs alone. And it works both ways. Both partners would be proud to say they are each other's first and only. I have wondered if I would be okay with such a thing and one time I found out the girl I liked was not virgin and I was upset, not only because she wasn't but also because she was a lot younger than me, at an age where I think it's inappropriate to be having sex and as such, my opinion about who she is and the values she holds changed a little.

Hehe, personally I found Archer's voice the funniest. When the hell did Shirou deepen his voice that much. ;)It's probably all of the projecting. Not only does it make his skin darker and hair white, it changes his voice. Nasu is king of plot devices.

On an extra note, Shirou never found out Sakura was raped by Shinji for years.

[Cherry_Lover]

On an extra note, Shirou never found out Sakura was raped by Shinji for years.

No, but he knows she was raped, even if not who by, because Kotomine told him that she had been and she confirmed it. It's also quite plausible that she will tell him the truth at a later date, since there is little point in covering it up once Shinji is dead and Shirou is obviously in love with her.

[Rag]

So, what you're saying is that it is, in fact, not in any way NTR-like (but for some unfathomable reason you perceive it to be), and thus you can't explain it to me because you know damn well I'll disagree totally with your interpretation?

Because that's the only reason I can see why you wouldn't be able to even make an attempt at explaining it.

Unless you're claiming it's NTR because Sakura is "stealing" Shirou from Rin or Saber, in which case that's just plain ridiculous. If it was at all, then the other two routes must be even more so, since Sakura is far more in love with Shirou prior to the game than Rin.

I believe he meant to say that the joke is lost if it has to be explained.

[JuGG]

There is rage in both.

Both. The "waifu" thing apply in the sense that you identify yourself with the main character.

Not only will they feel they have used used and tainted, but they are no longer theirs only. Humans like to have possession of something that is unique to them. This is human nature once you get down to it, people are selfish with those they love, whether they are male or female, it's why marriage is such an important thing.

And I am very selfish.

It's not so much the physical aspect but just knowing the girl is theirs alone. And it works both ways. Both partners would be proud to say they are each other's first and only. I have wondered if I would be okay with such a thing and one time I found out the girl I liked was not virgin and I was upset, not only because she wasn't but also because she was a lot younger than me, at an age where I think it's inappropriate to be having sex and as such, my opinion about who she is and the values she holds changed a little.

It's probably all of the projecting. Not only does it make his skin darker and hair white, it changes his voice. Nasu is king of plot devices.
I admire your honesty and your perspective. Possession is important for most people: for me, my girlfriend has previous partners and has had a serious loving relationship too. I, on the other hand, have no serious history. When we began going out I use to worry about this too much thinking that I had very little understanding of relationships but I am a lot more confident now and I am sure that we are each others and have complete trust. So yeah--I definitely think that possession is a very important aspect and I can understand that you changed your opinion of her--even if it's only slightly. I suppose things like that bother everyone, I just hope that it isn't the make or break of things.

Projecting probably is the reason too; he just has to constantly project since he's so lonely. Poor guy. ;)

[Moczo]

Wow! Saegusa, Makidera, and Himuro! Since they took the time to introduce them in the prologue and give them voice actresses and details about their lives, I'm sure they will all be main characters with many important contributions to the plot!

Yes I am still in the prologue. I haven't had all that much time to sit and read it, shut up.

[DragoZERO]

Wow! Saegusa, Makidera, and Himuro! Since they took the time to introduce them in the prologue and give them voice actresses and details about their lives, I'm sure they will all be main characters with many important contributions to the plot!

Yes I am still in the prologue. I haven't had all that much time to sit and read it, shut up.
What are you playing??

[Moczo]

What are you playing??

Hee, hee, I was just making a joke. I lost my install of FSN awhile back, and just got reinstalled with the voice patch, so I decided to read through again to hear the voicework. I was making a joke about the three girls who kinda get played up in the prologue as important and then are never heard from again. :heh:

[DragoZERO]

Hee, hee, I was just making a joke. I lost my install of FSN awhile back, and just got reinstalled with the voice patch, so I decided to read through again to hear the voicework. I was making a joke about the three girls who kinda get played up in the prologue as important and then are never heard from again. :heh:
Oh yeah... my friend gave up on playing this because "it's just school girls talking" and he started to doze off. I keep telling to try again and just get to the first fight (Lancer vs. Archer) and then you'll be hooked. Oh, and not to sit too comfortably, because I did fall asleep many times while I played. :heh:

[Malkuth]

Oh yeah... my friend gave up on playing this because "it's just school girls talking" and he started to doze off.

LOL, well, technically he was right :p

[DragoZERO]

LOL, well, technically he was right :p
Yeah... that's why I couldn't argue with him. :heh:

[MainCharacter]

Uh-oh. This place is starting to sound more and more like "THAT" TM fansite. Not good. Less bickering and jumping down each others throats over "misunderstandings", please? <3

[RadiantBeam]

Uh-oh. This place is starting to sound more and more like "THAT" TM fansite. Not good. Less bickering and jumping down each others throats over "misunderstandings", please? <3

Which site is this? :heh:

Besides, part of the fun of the whole experience is the bickering and jumping down throats. :p It gets the blood boiling good and hot.

[DragoZERO]

Uh-oh. This place is starting to sound more and more like "THAT" TM fansite. Not good. Less bickering and jumping down each others throats over "misunderstandings", please? <3
Starting to? We've gone in and out of that numerous times already.

I wonder if Nasu intended for this when he wrote Heaven's Feel...

[RadiantBeam]

I wonder if Nasu intended for this when he wrote Heaven's Feel...

You know, he probably did. He was probably cackling like a mad scientist the whole time he wrote the route, knowing how it would split the fandom in two.

[Moczo]

You know, he probably did. He was probably cackling like a mad scientist the whole time he wrote the route, knowing how it would split the fandom in two.

... ... ... ... That's an awful lot of planning for Nasu. :heh:

[DezoPenguin]

You know, he probably did. He was probably cackling like a mad scientist the whole time he wrote the route, knowing how it would split the fandom in two.

Especially when you consider that given Fate/hollow ataraxia, the anime, the UBW movie, and the manga (and heck, probably /unlimited codes and /extra as well, though I don't know enough about them to comment), there's basically no "official canon" ending to Fate, so the fans can argue to their heart's (dis)content! :heh:

[RadiantBeam]

... ... ... ... That's an awful lot of planning for Nasu. :heh:

Well, you know... Nasu does seem to plan things. :heh: He just never really explains where those plans ultimately go.

[Moczo]

Well, you know... Nasu does seem to plan things. :heh: He just never really explains where those plans ultimately go.

Actually, reading some of the above posts, I start to think that the time he should have spent tying up plotholes, he spent screwing with fans instead...

[DragoZERO]

Actually, reading some of the above posts, I start to think that the time he should have spent tying up plotholes, he spent screwing with fans instead...
However they are not normal plot holes. They are Nasu Plot Holes. It's a whole different matter.

[Altima of the Gates]

You know, he probably did. He was probably cackling like a mad scientist the whole time he wrote the route, knowing how it would split the fandom in two.


Well I don't think he did, if you saw his reactions to the results of the 2nd (iirc) character poll, he was kinda surprised. I actually get quite surprised when I see some reviews for HF too, in comparison to Fate and UBW. It never ceases to amaze me, the comments that I've seen these past few years of arguments.

Also I would have thought you all would know Nasu is a true troll. Look at that bonus DVD for Fate/extra! He does like to poke his fair share of fun at the fandom.

[DragoZERO]

What are the results of the first and second polls??

[Altima of the Gates]

https://www.typemoon.com/users/vote/fate2nd_chara.html

http://www.typemoon.com/rank/fate_1st/index.htm
Download the zip, then open the vote .exe, it'll show the amount of votes and progression of ranks if you push the slider at the bottom to the right.

[GDB]

Wow, that threw me off. Thought it was listed by rank at first. Was wondering how Shinji was higher than Lancer and Archer lol.

Anyway, only surprise is that Rin is #2 and Archer is #3. I expected that to be reversed. Saber's #1 as expected, and Ilya is in the top5 (I couldn't choose between her and Rider for who Japan was more likely to prefer). And Rider ended up #4, and Sakura #6. So pretty much nailed the top6, basing it purely off of Merchandise.

[DragoZERO]

So.. I don't get what was so surprising about the 2nd poll?

[Altima of the Gates]

So.. I don't get what was so surprising about the 2nd poll?

Most likely the difference in her placing. I don't think it was shown in the results but comments during the voting.

I know I'd be surprised, but that's me.

[Cherry_Lover]

Most likely the difference in her placing. I don't think it was shown in the results but comments during the voting.

I know I'd be surprised, but that's me.

Wasn't Sakura sixth in both?

[LostHanyou]

Berserker was in the top 15 at one point!

;_;

[DragoZERO]

Wasn't Sakura sixth in both?
Yeah, the top several ranks were the same between both.

[Altima of the Gates]

I'm not a fan of crazy homicidal nymphos either, actually, I don't think there are any such characters in this game. :P

[JuGG]

I'm not a fan of crazy homicidal nymphos either, actually, I don't think there are any such characters in this game. :P
Okay, maybe I was being a little harsh on Sakura--she had her reasons and it was not as if she was truly evil. Still wouldn't want to live under the same roof as her though.

[Cherry_Lover]

Okay, maybe I was being a little harsh on Sakura--she had her reasons and it was not as if she was truly evil.

Well, she's not crazy (despite having every reason to be, after what she's been through), except for the last few days of HF where she's possessed by Angra Mainyu, which would drive anyone insane, she's not homicidal and she's not really a nymphomaniac either (and, in so far as she is, it's because Zouken spent eleven years "training" her body to be that way).

So, I think you were being more than a little harsh there....

Still wouldn't want to live under the same roof as her though.

Why not? You get lovely food cooked for you every day, and you get to live with a kind, sweet, caring girl. And, if you're really lucky (i.e., if you're Shirou...), you get to have sex with a hot girl every night.

Plus, she's extremely mentally strong, has high magic potential and would endevour to protect the person she loves at all costs, even if that means continuing to suffer the most horrific of torture. I'd say she'd be just about the ideal house-mate, actually....

[DragoZERO]

Indeed... Sakura is all kinds of awesome with her cooking, cleaning, and always wanting to be of help.

But I think I would have to exclude the sex part because the reason she is so forward with it and all simply pisses me off to no end.

Hmph... a black cat...

[JuGG]

Well, she's not crazy (despite having every reason to be, after what she's been through), except for the last few days of HF where she's possessed by Angra Mainyu, which would drive anyone insane, she's not homicidal and she's not really a nymphomaniac either (and, in so far as she is, it's because Zouken spent eleven years "training" her body to be that way).

So, I think you were being more than a little harsh there....

Why not? You get lovely food cooked for you every day, and you get to live with a kind, sweet, caring girl. And, if you're really lucky (i.e., if you're Shirou...), you get to have sex with a hot girl every night.

Plus, she's extremely mentally strong, has high magic potential and would endevour to protect the person she loves at all costs, even if that means continuing to suffer the most horrific of torture. I'd say she'd be just about the ideal house-mate, actually....
Okay, you have raised a few good points and blasted several gaping holes in my argument. With all things considered then I suppose none of the things I listed were really her fault or wanting. And you are certainly right about the food and the sex.

Food and sex are good. :D

In short I will retract my insult. :heh:
Indeed... Sakura is all kinds of awesome with her cooking, cleaning, and always wanting to be of help.

But I think I would have to exclude the sex part because the reason she is so forward with it and all simply pisses me off to no end.

Hmph... a black cat...
It does? I certainly find that I prefer people acting on their desires in most cases.

*stuffs hands in pockets and follows the black cat*

[Cherry_Lover]

But I think I would have to exclude the sex part because the reason she is so forward with it and all simply pisses me off to no end.


What, women aren't allowed to actually enjoy sex now? Only men are allowed to actually ask for it rather than just lying back and taking whatever comes their way?

[Altima of the Gates]

What, women aren't allowed to actually enjoy sex now? Only men are allowed to actually ask for it rather than just lying back and taking whatever comes their way?

I think he means he feels bad for her that it seems (to him) as if she has been conditioned to have sexual desire.

As for her other good points, there is the potential for magic and greater things she also has. I mean, she's only 15. She's got a wealth of other things to look forward to than being just someone's maid. There are a myriad of things that Sakura could end up doing.

I think this might be why some fic authors are so stuck with what to do with her. She has this mark that says she is "Cooking/taking care of the home, and sex" and nothing else. Honestly, besides, being cute and the aforementioned things above, what do people think of when they think of her?

Now, changing that mindset, I think, will bring more creativity to people.

[GDB]

What, women aren't allowed to actually enjoy sex now? Only men are allowed to actually ask for it rather than just lying back and taking whatever comes their way?

What, you overreact to anything about Sakura now, even when it's perfectly reasonable? He's saying he wouldn't want to have sex with her when she gets all horned up due to the worms because it's not truly her will. It's the worms forcing a craving upon her.

But if you want to see it as a slight against all females instead of being disgusted at this single instance caused by Zouken and his machinations, go ahead. Sometimes, people aren't talking about people as a whole when referring to a specific person.

[DragoZERO]

What, women aren't allowed to actually enjoy sex now? Only men are allowed to actually ask for it rather than just lying back and taking whatever comes their way?Read the manga titled "Bitter Virgin."

I think he means he feels bad for her that it seems (to him) as if she has been conditioned to have sexual desire.Indeed. We have spoken about this before in length, hence my mentioning of the black cat from The Matrix.

As for her other good points, there is the potential for magic and greater things she also has. I mean, she's only 15. She's got a wealth of other things to look forward to than being just someone's maid. There are a myriad of things that Sakura could end up doing. She could be a kindergarten teacher. That fits pretty well.

What, you overreact to anything about Sakura now, even when it's perfectly reasonable? He's saying he wouldn't want to have sex with her when she gets all horned up due to the worms because it's not truly her will. It's the worms forcing a craving upon her.

But if you want to see it as a slight against all females instead of being disgusted at this single instance caused by Zouken and his machinations, go ahead. Sometimes, people aren't talking about people as a whole when referring to a specific person.Exactly. The first time they did it, she took the lead... a girl whose had all of that done to her would not do that. But, instead of going to the brief drama of that, Nasu went straight for her being horny. I have no problem with her being forward, it's awesome. But being worm raped from when she was six years old and later brother raped too should had left her fearing sex. So I think it would have been better to have Shirou step up and after listening to her plea for help, take the lead for the girl.

[Cherry_Lover]

What, you overreact to anything about Sakura now, even when it's perfectly reasonable? He's saying he wouldn't want to have sex with her when she gets all horned up due to the worms because it's not truly her will. It's the worms forcing a craving upon her.

But if you want to see it as a slight against all females instead of being disgusted at this single instance caused by Zouken and his machinations, go ahead. Sometimes, people aren't talking about people as a whole when referring to a specific person.

That's not what it looked like from the way he said it, though.

If he'd said "I don't want to have sex with her because I wouldn't be sure she really wants it" or, "I wouldn't want to have sex with her when she's under the influence of the worms", then fair enough, but the way he said it seemed to be implying that the issue was the fact that she's sexually aggressive in general, not simply the fact that she's had her sexual desire artificially heightened. Plus, I was assuming we were talking about a version of Sakura who was already free of Zouken here.

Anyway, it appears that I misinterpreted his comments somewhat, so I'm sorry for that.

She could be a kindergarten teacher. That fits pretty well.

Yeah, I think something working with kids would suit her, probably disadvantaged kids, because she would want to give them the childhood that she had never had.

Exactly. The first time they did it, she took the lead... a girl whose had all of that done to her would not do that. But, instead of going to the brief drama of that, Nasu went straight for her being horny. I have no problem with her being forward, it's awesome. But being worm raped from when she was six years old and later brother raped too should had left her fearing sex. So I think it would have been better to have Shirou step up and after listening to her plea for help, take the lead for the girl.

Well, the thing is, she hates sex with Shinji and with Zouken. With Shirou, however, she loves him more than anything and trusts him implicitly, so she's able to be forward and come onto him in a way that you wouldn't expect a girl in her situation to do in a normal situation.

I can see your point, though, especially since the worms clearly had some effect.

[GDB]

but the way he said it seemed to be implying that the issue was the fact that she's sexually aggressive in general

No, he said the reason she's so forward is what pisses him off.

And yeah, I can see Kindergarten or even Elementary school teacher as a future profession if she doesn't do anything magi related.

[RadiantBeam]

Well, the thing is, she hates sex with Shinji and with Zouken.

....

Sakura had sex with Zouken? When did this happen? :twitch:

[DragoZERO]

That's not what it looked like from the way he said it, though.

If he'd said "I don't want to have sex with her because I wouldn't be sure she really wants it" or, "I wouldn't want to have sex with her when she's under the influence of the worms", then fair enough, but the way he said it seemed to be implying that the issue was the fact that she's sexually aggressive in general, not simply the fact that she's had her sexual desire artificially heightened. Plus, I was assuming we were talking about a version of Sakura who was already free of Zouken here.I was referring to post-HF, but it my view still applied to during it.

Anyway, it appeats that I misinterpreted his comments somewhat, so I'm sorry for that.Next time a post is about Sakura, read it twice.

Yeah, I think something working with kids would suit her, probably disadvantaged kids, because she would want to give them the childhood that she had never had.I just thought she'd be a nice teacher since she is so homely and sweet... didn't even consider giving children a nice childhood. :heh:

Well, the thing is, she hates sex with Shinji and with Zouken. With Shirou, however, she loves him more than anything and trusts him implicitly, so she's able to be forward and come onto him in a way that you wouldn't expect a girl in her situation to do in a normal situation.It doesn't matter, there should have been some mention or what have you about this. But it's a mute point and one Nasu is oblivious to.

....

Sakura had sex with Zouken? When did this happen? :twitch:I think that was just a "slip of the tongue" and he was referring to his worm treatment. Unless he turned into the worms and did it... but I don't think that happened.

...

[Cherry_Lover]

No, he said the reason she's so forward is what pisses him off.

Like I said, I mis-read it.

In fact, when I made that post, I was still mistaken, so I went back and checked his post again after making mine, and I realised that I'd totally misunderstood him. I was going to go back and edit the post to say that, but then my internet failed on me....

....

Sakura had sex with Zouken? When did this happen? :twitch:

Well, she was repeatedly raped by the worms, and the worms are Zouken (well, sort-of, anyway), so....

I just thought she'd be a nice teacher since she is so homely and sweet... didn't even consider giving children a nice childhood. :heh:

Yeah, that's also true, of course.

It doesn't matter, there should have been some mention or what have you about this. But it's a mute point and one Nasu is oblivious to.

I guess that, with Sakura, the brokenness goes much deeper, so the superficial stuff on the surface (like being scared of sex) doesn't really show up as much.

[DragoZERO]

Well, she was repeatedly raped by the worms, and the worms are Zouken (well, sort-of, anyway), so....No, he is made of worms, but not all of the worms are him.

I guess that, with Sakura, the brokenness goes much deeper, so the superficial stuff on the surface (like being scared of sex) doesn't really show up as much.Please read, Bitter Virgin.

[Cherry_Lover]

No, he is made of worms, but not all of the worms are him.

I'm not entirely sure there is much distinction, TBH. The worms are his familiars, but they are also him. He forms his body from them and can turn himself into a swarm of worms in order to feed.

[Malkuth]

Please read, Bitter Virgin.

That was a nice suggestion, Hinako has a lot in common with Sakura.

[JuGG]

I'm not entirely sure there is much distinction, TBH. The worms are his familiars, but they are also him. He forms his body from them and can turn himself into a swarm of worms in order to feed.
I also feel that all the worms are him, or at least, completely under his control and would therefore be "his will". If they are not him then I'm guessing they would just be puppets or magical devices of his. I certainly don't think they are their own beings.

I'm gonna read Bitter Virgin myself now--I need a manga to read at the moment anyhow. :p

[Altima of the Gates]

I think that was just a "slip of the tongue" and he was referring to his worm treatment. Unless he turned into the worms and did it... but I don't think that happened.

Rather, the way she was treated is not too dissimilar from sexual activity. Did you read Zero?

Also, with your recommendation of Bitter Virgin, if I remember most of it, is good....but understand that not everyone responds to or is affected by sexual abuse in the same way. In all over factors, it's textbook all the way(remember she wouldn't even touch Shirou for quite awhile and they've known each other for a long time, plus there were the scenes she felt awkward with him when he was teaching her to cook, lots of tidbits of it everywhere). Which is funny how a good people think it's too much. Although, honestly, you take textbook domestic abuse/sexual abuse and add in supernatural elements, it's not really that unbelievable. It's rather silly that people have this strange flavor of expectation for characters that survive abuse, because people will always react to different things in different ways (it's why I'll always be stubborn about arguing against such people, so yeah get used to it all of you, you ain't shutting me up!).

Then there is the mindset that a person who survives abuse "should" be resentful toward everyone, and if they are not honestly resentful for their bad situation it's some fantasy world. Then, if they do lash out, without becoming some kind of soldier badass, or combat expert, who practically slices people to ribbons with their tongue, something is wrong with them. Like some blasted formula they have to follow or else they ain't worth shit. It's frankly ridiculous. I could take other people not liking her as much as others, but there is a strange "dissonance" I can't explain sometimes. Well, not like we'd all agree all the time.

[RadiantBeam]

I also feel that all the worms are him, or at least, completely under his control and would therefore be "his will". If they are not him then I'm guessing they would just be puppets or magical devices of his. I certainly don't think they are their own beings.

...

Brain bleach. I need it now.

[JuGG]

...

Brain bleach. I need it now.
:confused: Err... why? I just meant they were completely under his control or an extension of him. I seem to be bad at putting my thoughts in to words recently and my posts are coming out jumbled (using my phone doesn't help).
Anyway, I'll give more attention to my posts now. Apologies.

On another topic, I recently spotted this game in a little pre-owned game shop. I was incredibly surprised as I've never seen a VN in a store in the UK. Somebody apparently brought it in and they accepted it. Sadly they had nothing else really interesting (a couple of ZX Spectrum games including an awesome version of Knight Lore).

[RadiantBeam]

:confused: Err... why? I just meant they were completely under his control or an extension of him. I seem to be bad at putting my thoughts in to words recently and my posts are coming out jumbled (using my phone doesn't help).

Ah, no, no, you didn't do anything wrong. :heh: I just meant the general idea that every time Sakura was thrown in to the worms during her life, she was being raped by Zouken. Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah....

[JuGG]

Ah, no, no, you didn't do anything wrong. :heh: I just meant the general idea that every time Sakura was thrown in to the worms during her life, she was being raped by Zouken. Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah....
Haha. My bad then, just being over-sensitive. :D Forget I said anything.

[Moczo]

...

Brain bleach. I need it now.

You might be overusing that stuff. There are side-effects, you know!

[DragoZERO]

You might be overusing that stuff. There are side-effects, you know!
Yeah, you might forget about Rin and Ayako's moment in the classroom with the sun setting behind them.

[RadiantBeam]

Yeah, you might forget about Rin and Ayako's moment in the classroom with the sun setting behind them.

... I could pour all the world's brain bleach into me and never, ever forget that single moment. :D

[careph]

I usually try not to get into discussions anymore, but ...

rant/
... Kindergarten teacher; Elementary school teacher even … I really love the „even“. Even. She could even become an Elementary school teacher, but really, it would be a stretch.
As far as attributes go, we have „kind, sweet, caring, homely, helpful“. Preferred activities include „cooking, cleaning and sex". Sounds profound. And then? Ah, there's (even?) the kindergarten teacher, I forgot.
Preferably working with „disadvantaged kids“, so that she can forever relive her own nightmares through others instead of re-orienting her life in a new, happier direction and gradually laying aside her past horrors, replacing them with new, hopefully unrelated experiences. Glorious idea.
What else? Flower shop? Cat orphanage? I think this about covers the full panoply of prospective professions for a smart young girl. In her free time … embroidery and puddings?
Seriously though, you guys keep emphasizing the complexity of her character, but when it comes down to it, you confine and restrict her to what you yourselves claim to reject.
/rant

PS: Above I deliberately omitted the nexus connecting endurance, resilience, stamina and an inclination for self-sacrifice. Such behaviour may sound romantic and worthy of aspiration to some, but to me it seems detrimental in a “normal” environment, where it only serves as an open invitation for further exploitation. And the last thing I'd like to see is Sakura being exploited for the rest of her life.

[Haak]

Lol. I don't see the point of this discussion either because as far as i can see if she recovers then there's no reason why anything is beyond her scope. Is there any real reason why she can't go to college or University?

[Cherry_Lover]

... Kindergarten teacher; Elementary school teacher even … I really love the „even“. Even. She could even become an Elementary school teacher, but really, it would be a stretch.

Yeah, this I have to agree with. The way that was said did seem to have an implication of her not being capable of teaching the older children.

As far as attributes go, we have „kind, sweet, caring, homely, helpful“. Preferred activities include „cooking, cleaning and sex". Sounds profound. And then? Ah, there's (even?) the kindergarten teacher, I forgot.

You do realise, right, that there is nothing whatsoever wrong with being a kind, caring person. She's very strong, yes, but she's not the sort of person who is going to go out and fight unless she has to, her abilities lie in helping and caring for people.

And, by the way, that's not to say she's not intelligent, just that she's the sort of person who would want a job working with and helping people, not a boring salaryman job in some bank or factory.

Preferably working with „disadvantaged kids“, so that she can forever relive her own nightmares through others instead of re-orienting her life in a new, happier direction and gradually laying aside her past horrors, replacing them with new, hopefully unrelated experiences. Glorious idea.

Or, perhaps, she just wants to help people?

Plus, people are forgetting something here. She's actually quite wealthy (post-HF, anyway), so she probably doesn't need to work, or at least money will not have to be her first priority (doubly so since Shirou will likely be working). Given that, why would she not use her time to help other children have the childhood she herself could not have?

What else? Flower shop? Cat orphanage? I think this about covers the full panoply of prospective professions for a smart young girl. In her free time … embroidery and puddings?

Ok, then, what would you suggest that she become? A soulless investment banker? A bored office worker doing nothing but making more money for her already-too-rich employer? A teacher (oh, wait, you already excluded that one..)? A magus?

Seriously though, you guys keep emphasizing the complexity of her character, but when it comes down to it, you confine and restrict her to what you yourselves claim to reject.

Sakura is very much a people person. She cares for others and likes looking after them. Given that, a job in something like social services is quite plausible.

Plus, you're being very dismissive of a huge range of jobs here. A good chef, for instance, can become very famous, and teacher is not a profession for total dumbasses, even at primary school level (I would have to agree that she's probably more likely to be a primary school teacher than a secondary school one, due to the broadness of the curriculum (she lacks any real specialism, from what I can tell) and the more pastoral nature of the job (because, whatever you might say, she would enjoy looking after children) but then I'm going on the British system, which is probably very different from the Japanese or American ones).

Just because she isn't going to become a famous scientist or follow the path of a magus (she could do that, but honestly it seems somewhat pointless because Zouken has fucked with her body to the extent that she's never going to be all that wonderful, and besides magi are generally assholes anyway, so I don't see Sakura fitting into that life all that well, plus she lacks any real reason to care, beyond self-defense and defending those around her), that doesn't make her choice somehow any less "acceptable", or make her any less "strong".

PS: Above I deliberately omitted the nexus connecting endurance, resilience, stamina and an inclination for self-sacrifice. Such behaviour may sound romantic and worthy of aspiration to some, but to me it seems detrimental in a “normal” environment, where it only serves as an open invitation for further exploitation. And the last thing I'd like to see is Sakura being exploited for the rest of her life.

Well, it can lead to exploitation, yes, but it is part of her character, and not a bad part, either. Obviously, extreme self-sacrifice (to the level that Shirou and Sakura show it) is a bad thing, but some level of willingness to sacrifice yourself for others certainly is not.

Lol. I don't see the point of this discussion either because as far as i can see if she recovers then there's no reason why anything is beyond her scope. Is there any real reason why she can't go to college or University?

Yes, but there is a difference between her being capable of anything and actually wanting to do it, and Sakura seems to me to be the sort of person who would prefer a job which involved close contact with and helping other people, not something impersonal like computer programming, banking, science etc.

Plus, last time I checked, teachers (even Primary school ones) had to go to University in order to become qualified, in this country at least. So, why would her being a teacher be such an unlikely route?

[Haak]

Yes, but there is a difference between her being capable of anything and actually wanting to do it, and Sakura seems to me to be the sort of person who would prefer a job which involved close contact with and helping other people, not something impersonal like computer programming, banking, science etc.

I would've thought the opposite considering how introverted she is.

[Cherry_Lover]

I would've thought the opposite considering how introverted she is.

That's not really natural, though, she's only like that because of the abuse she's been through. And, further, the last thing she needs is to deliberately seek out loneliness and avoid human contact. She needs friends and family to help her get over her past.

[Altima of the Gates]

I would've thought the opposite considering how introverted she is.

Actually, and we see this in HF and some examples in Hollow...She can be quite social and independent. She becomes the Steward of the Land of Fuyuki taking over Rin's position, while taking care of Shirou's body issues, and her work in school, as well as the Archery Club, where she is well liked as Captain.

Like Rider would say, if she wants to do something, and it's within her power, she'd do it.

A Sakura free and happy would become someone quite profound.

I usually try not to get into discussions anymore, but ...

rant/
... Kindergarten teacher; Elementary school teacher even … I really love the „even“. Even. She could even become an Elementary school teacher, but really, it would be a stretch.
As far as attributes go, we have „kind, sweet, caring, homely, helpful“. Preferred activities include „cooking, cleaning and sex". Sounds profound. And then? Ah, there's (even?) the kindergarten teacher, I forgot.
Preferably working with „disadvantaged kids“, so that she can forever relive her own nightmares through others instead of re-orienting her life in a new, happier direction and gradually laying aside her past horrors, replacing them with new, hopefully unrelated experiences. Glorious idea.
What else? Flower shop? Cat orphanage? I think this about covers the full panoply of prospective professions for a smart young girl. In her free time … embroidery and puddings?
Seriously though, you guys keep emphasizing the complexity of her character, but when it comes down to it, you confine and restrict her to what you yourselves claim to reject.
/rant

PS: Above I deliberately omitted the nexus connecting endurance, resilience, stamina and an inclination for self-sacrifice. Such behaviour may sound romantic and worthy of aspiration to some, but to me it seems detrimental in a “normal” environment, where it only serves as an open invitation for further exploitation. And the last thing I'd like to see is Sakura being exploited for the rest of her life.

The thing is, as I've mentioned in my posts, all people seem to see is a 'broken person' not a "broken person who can be empowered to be much more". It's sad that not many fanfic writers who use her take advantage of this and are hesistant to use her. She also wants to re-learn magic, as I've said before, so there are many roads ahead. It deosn't mean she will be damaged forever, but you're right, we cannot ignore it. But we can also not ignore that she has a wealth of potential.

As to her dangerous parts, well all of the other heroes have some mark of flaw that they need to overcome
Shirou: Brands himself a sinner who seeks to atone, doesn't acknowledge his self-worth, self sacrificing to a fault
Saber: Clinging to duty, clinging to the past, refusal to acknowledge the advice of others
Rin: Clinging to duty. Too accepting of precepts of the world of magi when she herself at her core rejects a good deal of them. Refusal to acknowledge the reality of her situation, to the point of ignoring things to preserve her pride.
Sakura: Doesn't see her own self-worth, can't see a bright future for herself, extreme pessimism.

There is much more that could be done than just to write her off as thus. For victims of abuse, if you can get them to find that self-worth, then they get closer to the road of recovery. She has a hard road ahead, but it is not insurmountable, and she is not incapable of climbing that wall. She will just need help doing so.

[Haak]

Introversion isn't delibertely seeking out lonliness and it doesn't mean you can't have positions of leadership either, you know. That's only the most extreme case.

It's just that prefferring close contact will make her more extraverted than i think she is. I don't understand what Cherry Lover means by her introversion not being natural. It's a part of her personality. It's not her introversion that's unhealthy. It's her incredibly low self esteem. Her being introverted is perfectly fine.

[Altima of the Gates]

Introversion isn't delibertely seeking out lonliness and it doesn't mean you can't have positions of leadership either, you know. That's only the most extreme case.

It's just that prefferring close contact will make her more extraverted than i think she is. I don't understand what Cherry Lover menas by her introversion not being natural. It's a part of her personality. It's not her introversion that's unhealthy. It's her incredibly low self esteem.

Well the thing is, I agree that an introverted personality is not bad, and we had a convo a long time ago. She is rather the type of introvert that keeps a few close people around her. A more social introvert. Wait a tic, I think I can find that convo.

It starts here: http://nrvnqsr.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=4683&page=8#267258

But also, remember, that this can change in time as she heals.

[Cherry_Lover]

Sakura:..., can't see a bright future for herself, extreme pessimism.

I'm not sure that recognising the truth counts as a flaw....

She can't see a bright future for herself because, as far as she knows, there isn't one, and the extreme pessimism applies in the same way.

It's just that prefferring close contact will make her more extraverted than i think she is. I don't understand what Cherry Lover means by her introversion not being natural. It's a part of her personality. It's not her introversion that's unhealthy. It's her incredibly low self esteem. Her being introverted is perfectly fine.

What I'm saying is that she's not naturally introverted. It's just that her life sucks so much that she basically just retreated into her shell and cut herself off from the world to try to reduce the pain.

She seems to me to be far more people-orientated than idea-oriented or practical, so it makes sense that she'd take a job that is along those lines.

[GDB]

Yeah, this I have to agree with. The way that was said did seem to have an implication of her not being capable of teaching the older children.

Or you're assuming that, since I don't like Sakura, everything I say about her is negative and snarky. If you read the context, I was agreeing that she could teach Kindergarten, but was not confined to that as her only teaching outlet. You know, as in "she could teach more than Kindergarten. Elementary school, for instance."

In case you weren't aware, as I'm guessing you aren't by the fact that you seem to think teaching older children vs younger children is merely a matter of difficulty, it takes a completely different personality to teach young children than it does older children. Sakura's personality is more suited to younger children. No high schooler would take her seriously since she's too kind-hearted.

Also, let's randomly start skewing things that were posted about a week ago, and then start arguing about them. That seems like a perfectly sensible thing to do.

[Altima of the Gates]

Well now, let us not assume assumptions here. That just starts fights.

As to her not handling high school children, she seemed to take control of her club well enough of her peers. I certainly am not assuming you were calling her personality weak, but I disagree that she would be unable. Whether she would be good at it is another thing entirely. She's just 15 at this point, so who knows? Maybe college life will bring about a degree of change. Though yes, I would think she would 'prefer' to teach younger children.

[Cherry_Lover]

Or you're assuming that, since I don't like Sakura, everything I say about her is negative and snarky.

Honestly, I couldn't even remember who said it.

If you read the context, I was agreeing that she could teach Kindergarten, but was not confined to that as her only teaching outlet. You know, as in "she could teach more than Kindergarten. Elementary school, for instance."

Don't look at me, I'm not the one who said it, at least not initially.

I was simply going off what Careph said.

In case you weren't aware, as I'm guessing you aren't by the fact that you seem to think teaching older children vs younger children is merely a matter of difficulty, it takes a completely different personality to teach young children than it does older children.

Go read what I said later on....

I don't think it's an "easier job" to teach younger children, but it certainly requires different skills. In particular, teachers of younger children are usually more general, whereas secondary school teachers usually specialise in one or two subjects.

Sakura's personality is more suited to younger children.

I think that it's more that she's better suited to the job of teaching younger children, really.

No high schooler would take her seriously since she's too kind-hearted.

Actually, this is just plain not true. She is Rin's sister, remember, and as nice as she is she is perfectly capable of being a hard-ass when she needs to be. HA shows this quite adequately.

Also, let's randomly start skewing things that were posted about a week ago, and then start arguing about them. That seems like a perfectly sensible thing to do.

Again, why are you replying to my post here?

I'm not the one who was attacking you, and indeed in many ways I was defending what you said.

[GDB]

Actually, this is just plain not true. She is Rin's sister, remember, and as nice as she is she is perfectly capable of being a hard-ass when she needs to be. HA shows this quite adequately.

I haven't played HA, but who's she a hard-ass to? Shirou and other people she's intrinsically close to? Besides, I was under the impression that while Type-Moon put it out, Nasu did not write it.

Again, why are you replying to my post here?

Mostly because, after almost a week of the discussion being over, I was hoping no one would pay mind to the post that screamed "troll-bait". You just happened to be the first one to give it a serious response.

Perhaps I did come off too snarky/harsh in my recent response, and for that I apologize.

[Cherry_Lover]

I haven't played HA, but who's she a hard-ass to? Shirou and other people she's intrinsically close to?

The Archery club people, mainly. She's the captain, after all.

She's not nasty or anything, but she's quite capable of controlling them.

Besides, I was under the impression that while Type-Moon put it out, Nasu did not write it.

I'm not sure (I think he did write it, actually (unlike Zero, incidentally, which is most definitely canon)), but either way the characters are stated to be acting as they would act in real life (outside the more comical scenes, I think), so anything that HA shows is her real character.

[careph]

Oh boy have I become bad at this. Irony does not work well on the net, and I can see why GDB would call me a troll. Nobody understood what I was trying to convey, so I guess it was my mistake. There's no room for apologies or concessions either, the damage is already done. Just a few clarifications:
My entire point was that while usually the environmental factors influencing Sakura's behaviour/personality are seen as quite apart from her „true nature“, the effects they produced on the girl are taken as a basis for future prognoses. We only got a rather small, extremely one-sided - I daresay – glimpse of her in the course of the game(s). I see no reason to allot these effects any significance in her future endeavours. Further, I'd even say they shouldn't play any role in her future. Any claim to the universal value of a behaviour must be rejected. What is beneficial or useful in one situation may be detrimental and meaningless in another. And I do not believe the specialized coping strategies Sakura developed in the course of her life would prove to be much use in a more “normal” setting. Therefore I wouldn't encourage their prolonged use beyond their original purpose.
This is just my opinion, feel free to call it bullshit, feel free to call it trolling.

[DezoPenguin]

In other words, the reactions and defense mechanisms that one uses to retain one's sanity over ten or so years of torture and sexual abuse at the hands of a near-immortal demonic worm monster that more-or-less used to be a mage and that required massive power levels, titanic self-sacrificing moments by many people, and, I believe, a Zelretch Ex Machina to successfully resolve, are not likely to be the same ones that appropriately deal with when a co-worker steals your lunch out of the fridge.

Or in other words, part of why Sakura is so passive is that up until HF rolled around, her situation was by any rational standard hopeless and actively fighting against it would only make it worse, if one can imagine such a thing. In post-HF life, facing situations that can successfully be resolved by action rather than endurance, she may well...act.

I see no problem with that assessment.

(On the other hand, I can also see her being perfectly happy as Emiya Sakura, housewife, too. Lots of different possible paths in the future.)

[Altima of the Gates]

Those are quite good points. Also:

There's no room for apologies or concessions either, the damage is already done.

There is never a time where it is too late, as long as one is sincere in their apology. But you don't really have to apologize for such opinions.

Anyway, you are perfectly right careph, however, as I was saying, there is evidence to the contrary to show that she does away with some of those negative coping mechanisms to a degree, but yes, Nasu did not show us what led to that more confident Sakura two years later. Also, even then Sakura feels immense guilt and has other things to deal with, things she'll talk about with Shirou, things that'll leave lasting nightmares, and so on and so forth.

The sad thing is that there is no therapist she can rely on for help, since there don't seem to be such services in the Magus Association or the Church for victims of magic experiments. Remember, no magi can talk to normal people about magic without the person being put in grave danger.

Zelretch Ex Machina

Did you read the route? That was really in no way a Deus Ex Machina, imo.
I apologize if you have, though.

[RadiantBeam]

Did you read the route? That was really in no way a Deus Ex Machina, imo.
I apologize if you have, though.

It's a matter of opinion with the jewel sword, I think. I personally found it every bit the Dues Ex Machina it wasn't intended to be. Personally, I think the fight between Dark Sakura and Rin could have been much, much better than what it ultimately was, with how Nasu was building up the whole conflict.

[Altima of the Gates]

It's a matter of opinion with the jewel sword, I think. I personally found it every bit the Dues Ex Machina it wasn't intended to be. Personally, I think the fight between Dark Sakura and Rin could have been much, much better than what it ultimately was, with how Nasu was building up the whole conflict.

Well I know it was an opinion, and I countered with, "imo", lol.

It was planned out for most of the route, which is why imo it is not really DEM-ish. Besides, Rin had no jewels left at that point. It would be a hopeless fight for Rin otherwise.

Besides that fight could have been shorter than it was, if only Rin didn't try to antagonize.

[Mozzy1979]

Oh boy have I become bad at this. Irony does not work well on the net, and I can see why GDB would call me a troll. Nobody understood what I was trying to convey, so I guess it was my mistake. There's no room for apologies or concessions either, the damage is already done. Just a few clarifications:
My entire point was that while usually the environmental factors influencing Sakura's behaviour/personality are seen as quite apart from her „true nature“, the effects they produced on the girl are taken as a basis for future prognoses. We only got a rather small, extremely one-sided - I daresay – glimpse of her in the course of the game(s). I see no reason to allot these effects any significance in her future endeavours. Further, I'd even say they shouldn't play any role in her future.

Well, the thing is, whilst some of her personality is definitely a result of the abuse she's been through and her situation with Shirou (her very low self-esteem and her liking for domestic chores (which comes from the fact that she wants to be with and help Shirou), for instance), a large part of it (such as her generally kind, caring nature) is not, so there's no reason to assume that she would not be apeople person.

Any claim to the universal value of a behaviour must be rejected. What is beneficial or useful in one situation may be detrimental and meaningless in another. And I do not believe the specialized coping strategies Sakura developed in the course of her life would prove to be much use in a more “normal” setting. Therefore I wouldn't encourage their prolonged use beyond their original purpose.
This is just my opinion, feel free to call it bullshit, feel free to call it trolling.

Well, of course, but being a generally kind, selfless person is not something that should be considered a bad thing, and nor is it a "defense mechanism", and that's the main point of the argument here. Sakura is the sort of person who I think would enjoy helping others.

In other words, the reactions and defense mechanisms that one uses to retain one's sanity over ten or so years of torture and sexual abuse at the hands of a near-immortal demonic worm monster that more-or-less used to be a mage and that required massive power levels, titanic self-sacrificing moments by many people, and, I believe, a Zelretch Ex Machina to successfully resolve, are not likely to be the same ones that appropriately deal with when a co-worker steals your lunch out of the fridge.

Yep, basically. Although, I don't think her situation is quite as impossible to resolve as you think, or at least I hope it's not.

Or in other words, part of why Sakura is so passive is that up until HF rolled around, her situation was by any rational standard hopeless and actively fighting against it would only make it worse, if one can imagine such a thing. In post-HF life, facing situations that can successfully be resolved by action rather than endurance, she may well...act.

Exactly.

Sakura does not fight because she cannot fight.

(On the other hand, I can also see her being perfectly happy as Emiya Sakura, housewife, too. Lots of different possible paths in the future.)

Yeah, if she's with Shirou, I think she'd be happy to just look after him, their kids and the house. However, I don't think Shirou would be happy with that. Most likely, if she did take on that role, she would do something additionally, or at least learn magic (their kids would likely be high-quality magi too, so someone would have to teach them).

It's a matter of opinion with the jewel sword, I think. I personally found it every bit the Dues Ex Machina it wasn't intended to be.

I think it makes perfect sense, given the situation, and the idea of Shirou being able to trace it is hardly implausible.

Personally, I think the fight between Dark Sakura and Rin could have been much, much better than what it ultimately was, with how Nasu was building up the whole conflict.

Well, I think it was never about the fight, although that was IMO pretty awesome. The point was the emotions passing between the two girls.

[RadiantBeam]

*blah blah blah*

...

You sound a lot like CL. It's kind of creepy.

[mAc Chaos]

Secretly it is CL under another account. :P

[careph]

Well, the thing is, whilst some of her personality is definitely a result of the abuse she's been through and her situation with Shirou (her very low self-esteem and her liking for domestic chores (which comes from the fact that she wants to be with and help Shirou), for instance), a large part of it (such as her generally kind, caring nature) is not, so there's no reason to assume that she would not be apeople person.

This boils down to a nature vs. nurture debate. Is a human born as a blank slate, to be engraved with experience by its environment, or is there an essence which precedes its existence(1)? There is an abundance of arguments for and against either, but I fear that would go beyond the scope of this discussion. Nonetheless, I feel emotionally inclined to agree with you on a “nature” that may be overshadowed or repressed, yet rationally I would have to reject such a notion, based on my research on that topic.

(1) Please note that I am referring to cognitive development here only. Physically, a new-born baby is already well equipped to deal with its environment.

Well, of course, but being a generally kind, selfless person is not something that should be considered a bad thing, and nor is it a "defense mechanism", and that's the main point of the argument here. Sakura is the sort of person who I think would enjoy helping others.

Have you ever thought about the constituents that make up the word “selfless”? Self – less. Without a self. The self may be described as the ever-changing nucleus from which all output, to which all input flows. If that input is excessively negative and harmful, one strategy is to try to remove that core in order to cut off the pain. At the same time, the self is the engine that powers a human. Removing that energy generator necessitates the creation of a substitute – you stop living for yourself, but live for others instead. This is also why I would advocate finding a way to live for yourself, and for your self.
This explanation is excessively simplistic and selective, but I hope it makes sense.

[RadiantBeam]

Well, I think it was never about the fight, although that was IMO pretty awesome. The point was the emotions passing between the two girls.

Fair enough point, but really, the fight could have been much better without losing that exchange of emotions. The actual confrontation itself was a major letdown considering how much Nasu built up to it and foreshadowed it. One can have a good fight between characters and still have emotions pass between them.

Apologies for the double post, but I have a question that's been nagging at me.

What exactly is the deal with the end of Rin and Sakura's fight? I get what happens; Sakura accepts death, Rin can't do it, stabbing is involved, and Rin is suddenly hugging Sakura and bleeding to death. Where I'm getting confused is how, exactly, Rin got stabbed. My first thought was one of Sakura's shadows lashed out and nailed her when she let her guard down, but we never see anything in the narrative to indicate this happened except for the stabbing sound and the image of blood. I think there would have been more of a hint if one of Sakura's shadows had gone on the offensive.

My other thought then is that maybe Rin turns the knife on herself at the last minute, since maybe she got too close to Sakura to just throw it away, but again... the narrative never explicitly describes what happens.

[Mike1984]

Sakura seemed to have a knife of her own, which she stabbed Rin with. Dunno how exactly, though. Presumably it came from the same place where Rin's knife came from (i.e. straight out of her ass).

[RadiantBeam]

Sakura seemed to have a knife of her own, which she stabbed Rin with. Dunno how exactly, though. Presumably it came from the same place where Rin's knife came from (i.e. straight out of her ass).

But it was never even remotely hinted in the game that Sakura had her own knife. I know Nasu's writing can be rather flawed at times, but I like to think that if Sakura had a knife on her, it was still something he would have foreshadowed.

[Mike1984]

But it was never even remotely hinted in the game that Sakura had her own knife. I know Nasu's writing can be rather flawed at times, but I like to think that if Sakura had a knife on her, it was still something he would have foreshadowed.

Like I said, it came from the same place that Rin's knife came from.

[Haak]

Didn't Sakura stab her with her tenticles?

[Seitsuki]

It wasn't a knife she stabbed Sakura with, it was Angra Mainyu. Re-read that bit, you'll see what happened was Sakura's body "automatically tried to defend itself". Probably using the same spear-projection things she used to beat up Shirou with a bit later.

edit: wups beaten to it. although tentacles sound so... inelegant.

[RadiantBeam]

Kind of odd that it wasn't mentioned, but I guess it was just one of those things Nasu assumed you would know from previous scenes. Thanks for clearing it up. ^^

[Rag]

Didn't Sakura stab her with her tenticles?

I read that as "testicles"....



edit:

Wait, when was CL banned?

[Altima of the Gates]

Kind of odd that it wasn't mentioned, but I guess it was just one of those things Nasu assumed you would know from previous scenes. Thanks for clearing it up. ^^

Well we know it goes out of control and has a mind of it's own throughout the route. Sakura at that point was pretty much, "Screw it. I can die now." then AM was like, "Oh no you don't, you're my host, forget about dying." Remember guys, we are dealing with possession here.

Which is why it tried to fight Shirou off later despite Sakura protesting it.

[Cherry_Lover]

It wasn't a knife she stabbed Sakura with, it was Angra Mainyu. Re-read that bit, you'll see what happened was Sakura's body "automatically tried to defend itself". Probably using the same spear-projection things she used to beat up Shirou with a bit later.

edit: wups beaten to it. although tentacles sound so... inelegant.

Yeah, I looked back at it again, and you're right. It wasn't a knife she had, it was her body "trying to defend itself". Although, my comment on where Rin's knife came from (in case you can't tell, I was Mike1984) still stands....

This boils down to a nature vs. nurture debate. Is a human born as a blank slate, to be engraved with experience by its environment, or is there an essence which precedes its existence(1)? There is an abundance of arguments for and against either, but I fear that would go beyond the scope of this discussion. Nonetheless, I feel emotionally inclined to agree with you on a “nature” that may be overshadowed or repressed, yet rationally I would have to reject such a notion, based on my research on that topic.

(1) Please note that I am referring to cognitive development here only. Physically, a new-born baby is already well equipped to deal with its environment.

Well, the correct answer to the nature vs. nurture debate is that, in fact, it is both which matter. Which is more important is, of course, a matter of some debate (with much evidence for both sides).

However, you are forgetting something important here. In Sakura's case, it's not nature vs. nurture, but rather nature and four years of (most likely) loving nurture from her mother and (to a lesser extent) her sister vs. eleven years of torture by Zouken designed to over-ride that. Whilst nurture definitely has a big effect on a person's personality, even at a deep and very fundamental level, your base personality is seemingly set at a very young age, so Sakura's fundamental nature was likely shaped not by Zouken's abuse, but by her treatment in her early years at the Tohsaka house. What Zouken did to her buried that fundamental nature below layers of self-hatred and crippingly low self-confidence, but it never actually erased it.

Have you ever thought about the constituents that make up the word “selfless”? Self – less. Without a self.

Erm, no, that's not what it means at all. It means "does not think about themselves", not "does not have a self".

The self may be described as the ever-changing nucleus from which all output, to which all input flows. If that input is excessively negative and harmful, one strategy is to try to remove that core in order to cut off the pain. At the same time, the self is the engine that powers a human. Removing that energy generator necessitates the creation of a substitute – you stop living for yourself, but live for others instead. This is also why I would advocate finding a way to live for yourself, and for your self.
This explanation is excessively simplistic and selective, but I hope it makes sense.

Well, I would not disagree that a person should like for themselves to some extent, and that excessive self-sacrificial tendancies (of the kind Shirou and Sakura exhibit) are bad. In fact, this is the reason why I think HF is the best route in terms of the pairing and the character development, because Shirou learns to actually think of himself and what he wants, and pairing him with Sakura will assist him with that because they are both the same, and thus will have to learn to look after themselves to make each other happy.

However, wishing to help others and putting them first is not a bad thing, provided that the person in question recognises that they are a person too, with human needs and wants, and that it is perfectly OK for them to act in their own interest as well. This is what Kiritsugu failed to understand, and what MoS Shirou could not understand.

[RadiantBeam]

Yeah, I looked back at it again, and you're right. It wasn't a knife she had, it was her body "trying to defend itself". Although, my comment on where Rin's knife came from (in case you can't tell, I was Mike1984) still stands....

It's Rin. She's a master of pulling things out of thin air and we have no clue where she keeps any of them. That's part of the fun of it.

[GDB]

It's Rin. She's a master of pulling things out of thin air and we have no clue where she keeps any of them. That's part of the fun of it.

Being a proper magus, I'm going to assume she has a magical bag/cloth like Lina Inverse does. It doesn't change the weight of the items inside, but it lets one carry things of any size with them discreetly (assuming they have the strength to carry it).

That explains away any inconsistencies.

[Cherry_Lover]

Well, the thing is, there's no real reason for her to bring a knife in the first place (for one thing, I don't genuinely think she could have killed Sakura even if she had stabbed her), and it's never mentioned at any point that she either has such a bag or that she has picked up a knife to use.

[GDB]

Wait, where is this knife coming from? She was carrying a freaking sword. I'm pretty sure you can stab someone with a sword. You don't need a separate knife for that.

[Cherry_Lover]

What, you mean the sword which she blew up in the previous scene?

[GDB]

Unless it was completely eviscerated from their plane of existence, there'd still be shrapnel lying around.

[Cherry_Lover]

Yes, but the game doesn't say "she picked up a piece of shrapnel from her sword and tried to stab Sakura with it", it says "she takes out a knife she had hidden behind her back".

[Haak]

Maybe the dagger was just hidden behind her, under her sweater...

[/random suggestions]

[Reckoner]

I love how after so long after this VN has been released, the details of the story are still speculated and argued to no end.

Should be interesting to see what happens when fate/zero comes out :heh:.

[Cherry_Lover]

Fate/Zero is already out, just not in animated form (and the translation isn't quite finished yet).

[Reckoner]

I realize this, but the wide audience that Fate/Stay night is far greater than the select few who speak Japanese on these forums which enabled them to read the LN's of fate/zero which are still not fully translated. For many of us, including people who played the VN, this will be our first contact with fate/zero beyond spoilers.

[Cherry_Lover]

Well, like I said, the light novel is actually mostly translated now (in fact, I believe it is entirely translated, but I think it still requires a bit of editing).

[RadiantBeam]

Mmmm, I'll personally wait for the anime. I started reading the light novel, but for some reason it couldn't hold my attention.

[Cherry_Lover]

Yeah, same here, actually.

Honestly, the story doesn't interest me that much. I know it's going to end badly before I even start, and I'm not overly bothered about reading about lots of servants awesomely kicking each others asses whilst their masters run around like headless chickens fucking up not only their own lives, but also those of their family and loved ones....

It's the sort of thing that does probably work better animated, although I suspect I still won't like it much (and, if they cut out Kariya's subplot, I reserve the right to rage furiously...).

[mAc Chaos]

I read Fate/Zero. It was great, so you should still read it even if you are unsure.

[Cherry_Lover]

I've read some of it (and, indeed, I do need to read more, because I'm (very slowly) writing a fanfic based on it), but the idea behind it (a bunch of unsympathetic characters (except Kariya, who gets fucked over royally) fighting a bunch of battles) doesn't interest me much, however awesome those battles may be.

[mAc Chaos]

They're not all unsympathetic. You get to like them as the story goes on.

[Cherry_Lover]

They're not all unsympathetic. You get to like them as the story goes on.

Well, Tokiomi is an arrogant twat, and the only way he could make me like him is if he were to kick down the door to the Matou house, turn Zouken into fish food, grab Sakura and take her home (after a trip to Kotomine to get the worms removed). Kariya I sympathise a lot with, but at the same time he's an idiot who was doomed by canon to fail miserably, so it's hard to get into his story except in a "God this is tragic" kind of way. Kiritsugu is a little sympathetic, but he's basically MoS Shirou, so I find it hard to like him in any real way. As for the rest, Kotomine is Kotomine, El-Melloi is an asshole, Caster's master is just an outright monster and Waver I think is decent enough, but at the same time he did choose to enter that war, and he doesn't really have much to be sympathetic about.

Plus, the story as a whole is just outright depressing. The battles are pointless (because no-one can get the Grail and the outcome is a foregone conclusion) and there isn't even the slightest spot of happiness in the entire story (not least because we already know that Sakura isn't going to get freed and Kiritsugu won't see Ilya again, so even when it looks like they're getting close there's no joy in there).

[RadiantBeam]

I read Fate/Zero. It was great, so you should still read it even if you are unsure.

Mm, something about the flow threw me off, and now I don't have the time to get back into it. So I'm just going to wait for the anime, and if anything gets cut out, I'll check out the novel.

[LostHanyou]

They're not all unsympathetic. You get to like them as the story goes on.

I agree. I found Kotomine to be a interesting if not sympathetic character. And it's not like servants can't be sympathetic either - there's a lot more to them than just battling. Saber is a perfect example of this, and Rider has his moments too.

But I guess I see why it's far less emotionally driven then Fate/Stay Night. I actually cried a few times reading Fate/Stay :/

[Cherry_Lover]

I agree. I found Kotomine to be a interesting if not sympathetic character.

Interesting, yes, but anything sympathetic about him was already covered in HF.

Overall, I think that actually sums Zero up. It's interesting as a prequel to FSN, but as a story in its own right I probably wouldn't bother with it.

And it's not like servants can't be sympathetic either - there's a lot more to them than just battling. Saber is a perfect example of this, and Rider has his moments too.

Well, that sums up the problem, really. With the exception of Kariya, pretty much all of the characters in Zero who are actually sympathetic have their sympathetic side covered thoroughly in FSN. Saber's situation is sympathetic, yes, but we already know that, and all Fate/Zero does is flesh it out a bit.

But I guess I see why it's far less emotionally driven then Fate/Stay Night. I actually cried a few times reading Fate/Stay :/

Actually, I think I cried almost as much at Zero as I did at FSN. The only difference is that, in the case of Zero, it was because of hindsight. I cried at basically every scene involving Ilya and Sakura because I knew it wasn't going to turn out OK (not yet, anyway and, indeed, one or the other never will, unless Nasu gives Sakura a good end in Fate and stops Ilya dying in a year). In HF, I didn't get that upset because I knew that, as depressing as Sakura's situation was, it would turn out OK in the end (oddly enough, I find it more upsetting when I re-read it than I did the first time), so the only bits I truly cried at (first time around, anyway) were Ilya's death and the Normal end.

[RadiantBeam]

I actually cried a few times reading Fate/Stay :/

Same here. :heh: Heaven's Feel was pure hell for me because whenever I wasn't cheering at the awesomness or depressed over how the situation sucked, I was crying because characters I liked were dying.

[Altima of the Gates]

Same here. :heh: Heaven's Feel was pure hell for me because whenever I wasn't cheering at the awesomness or depressed over how the situation sucked, I was crying because characters I liked were dying.

Exactly, and for some of us, due to vague ends, the other ends are pure hell as well in hindsight. It's very emotional.

[Haak]

To honest didn't cry once but I guess that's probably because I never cry at anything. DX

I did sort of choke up for Ilya's death in UBW and both endings to HF (The Normal Ending because it was so heartbreaking and the True Ending because it was all over :(.)

[Seitsuki]

Yes, but the game doesn't say "she picked up a piece of shrapnel from her sword and tried to stab Sakura with it", it says "she takes out a knife she had hidden behind her back".

Oh, THAT. Pretty sure they stated it was the Azoth dagger she got from Kirei and carried around everywhere. Note the "everywhere", which conveniently includes the cavern of the birthplace of the sum of all evils in the world. A girl's gotta have some protection down there.

Personally I found Kiritsugu to be one of the more sympathetic characters in F/Z. He's always lived alone, without emotional ties, then when he finally finds a sliver of happiness in Ilya and Irisviel everything gets taken away from him as he is forced to follow his ideals to the end. He's portrayed by Shirou as some awesome ideal hero of justice in F/SN but we see in both series just how well that turns out. Oh Nasu you cynical bastard :heh:

But yeah, nothing really compares to Ilya. To live without hope, knowing she will die either as a Master or as the body of the grail, and even if she somehow manages to escape that end her lifespan is pathetically short. To have been seperated from her parents and everyone she loved, surrounded by people who never cared for her as a person. Valued not for who she is, but what she embodies. And yet she puts on that brave front, never wavering, and fights on regardless. That scene in the snow, I thought we had a Key hijack or something ;_;

[Altima of the Gates]

Oh, THAT. Pretty sure they stated it was the Azoth dagger she got from Kirei and carried around everywhere. Note the "everywhere", which conveniently includes the cavern of the birthplace of the sum of all evils in the world. A girl's gotta have some protection down there.

She gave that to Shirou, using up all her jewels to fuel it with magical energy. He kills Saber alter with it.

But yeah, nothing really compares to Ilya. To live without hope, knowing she will die either as a Master or as the body of the grail, and even if she somehow manages to escape that end her lifespan is pathetically short. To have been seperated from her parents and everyone she loved, surrounded by people who never cared for her as a person. Valued not for who she is, but what she embodies. And yet she puts on that brave front, never wavering, and fights on regardless. That scene in the snow, I thought we had a Key hijack or something ;_;

That is the thing, if Ilya hadn't said, "maybe I could do something about it", I would agree with you. But she did, so I say she and Sakura are about the same in sympathy for me. She seems to have quite a lot of the answers if you look carefully at the info you get in the game, but she never uses it. Why? I say it's pure fatalism. She is torn between the indoctrination that the Einzberns put in her as the Lesser Grail, and what she wants, which is to be with the people she cares about. There are times in the novel she actually struggles to decide between the two. Otherwise she would not have acted the way she did in HF with Sakura. Her behavior is just really odd.

[Cherry_Lover]

Oh, THAT. Pretty sure they stated it was the Azoth dagger she got from Kirei and carried around everywhere. Note the "everywhere", which conveniently includes the cavern of the birthplace of the sum of all evils in the world. A girl's gotta have some protection down there.

She gave that to Shirou.

But yeah, nothing really compares to Ilya. To live without hope, knowing she will die either as a Master or as the body of the grail, and even if she somehow manages to escape that end her lifespan is pathetically short. To have been seperated from her parents and everyone she loved, surrounded by people who never cared for her as a person. Valued not for who she is, but what she embodies. And yet she puts on that brave front, never wavering, and fights on regardless. That scene in the snow, I thought we had a Key hijack or something ;_;

Sakura?

Her treatment was essentially the same, and she was horrifically tortured in addition to that.

[DragoZERO]

No Zero talk, please!


Sakura?

Her treatment was essentially the same, and she was horrifically tortured in addition to that....

[Haak]

Yeah I think Ilya and Sakura are basically the same in terms of a fucked up past.

Anyway, I should also add that i almost choked up when I listened to Sakura pour her heart out to Rin in the grand finale.

[RadiantBeam]

Anyway, I should also add that i almost choked up when I listened to Sakura pour her heart out to Rin in the grand finale.

The part that got me was when Rin finally gave Sakura a hug. Something about the way she was talking, and Sakura's screams when she thought she'd killed her, absolutely broke my heart.

[Cherry_Lover]

The part that got me was when Rin finally gave Sakura a hug. Something about the way she was talking, and Sakura's screams when she thought she'd killed her, absolutely broke my heart.

Yeah, that scene is both hugely heartwarming and a massive tear-jerker.

[Seitsuki]

She gave that to Shirou.

Gah, yes she did. Well, going into the very definitely final dungeon with just one weapon is pretty stupid anyway. So thank god it was Rin there at the time and that our resident idiot DOES have the ability to pull shit weapons out of his ass. (wups that was close.)

The part that got me was when Rin finally gave Sakura a hug. Something about the way she was talking, and Sakura's screams when she thought she'd killed her, absolutely broke my heart.

It was very sad... until they all got better. Most of us prefer it that way I guess (imagine the raeg if Rin actually was killed off for real) but it cheaped the scene in some way for me >.> (does that make me a bad person?..)

[Cherry_Lover]

It was very sad... until they all got better. Most of us prefer it that way I guess (imagine the raeg if Rin actually was killed off for real) but it cheaped the scene in some way for me >.> (does that make me a bad person?..)

Well, the thing is, a) it would make it impossible for there to be a good ending (because Sakura would never forgive herself) and b) it's already been established in a previous route that Rin can survive a lot worse. If she was going to die from that, then her survival in Fate would just look stupid.

So, whilst in some ways it would make the scene more hard-hitting, it would also destroy the point of the whole thing, because Sakura would just basically shut down and refuse Shirou's help even more desperately than she already was, plus it wouldn't fit with what was shown to happen in Fate (Rin surviving a much worse stomach wound).

[RadiantBeam]

It was very sad... until they all got better. Most of us prefer it that way I guess (imagine the raeg if Rin actually was killed off for real) but it cheaped the scene in some way for me >.> (does that make me a bad person?..)

As much as that would have made the scene more emotional, it would have probably made saving Sakura much harder; she either would have completely rejected Shirou by the time he got to her, or she definitely would have been a wreck when the epilogue rolled around. Basically, sacrificing a more emotional moment by having Rin survive, and ensuring Sakura didn't become a suicidal, guilt-ridden mess in the epilogue. :heh:

And, seriously, Rin is made of bloody steel. The girl shrugs off stomach wounds, mana absorption.... she doesn't die when she's killed!

[Cherry_Lover]

As much as that would have made the scene more emotional, it would have probably made saving Sakura much harder; she either would have completely rejected Shirou by the time he got to her, or she definitely would have been a wreck when the epilogue rolled around. Basically, sacrificing a more emotional moment by having Rin survive, and ensuring Sakura didn't become a suicidal, guilt-ridden mess in the epilogue. :heh:

Yeah, exactly.

Shirou himself says (to Rider) that Sakura can't be happy unlesss Rin survives (unfortunately, he entirely ignores Rider's response that he is also important to her...), and I can't see how she could bounce back from killing her big sister shortly after she had finally realised how much Sakura really meant to her.

At least with everyone else who dies, she can quite easily say "it's not my fault" or "they deserved it" (and, yet, she still blames herself). With Rin, whilst it is still not truly her fault (she wasn't sane and it was self-defense), it's a lot closer to it, because she orchastrated the fight in the first place. I don't think anything Shirou could say to her would get past her self-loathing, and I don't think she could be with him either, because she would see herself as "unworthy".

And, seriously, Rin is made of bloody steel. The girl shrugs off stomach wounds, mana absorption.... she doesn't die when she's killed!

Yep.

If she can survive what Kotomine did to her in Fate, she can certainly survive getting stabbed in the stomach by a tentacle in HF.

[RadiantBeam]

Yep.

If she can survive what Kotomine did to her in Fate, she can certainly survive getting stabbed in the stomach by a tentacle in HF.

...

Actually, I just realized, being stabbed in the stomach seems to be her signature or something. I think Kotomine stabbed her in the stomach in Fate, too. At least, if I remember right, that was where she was bleeding from the most.

[Cherry_Lover]

Yeah, it does seem that way.

Which, if it's true, makes the idea that she couldn't survive in HF even more laughable (especially if you go by the original FSN CG (and not the toned-down RN version), where there is blood everywhere).

[Seitsuki]

Lol yeah I know. But still, the scene kinda went like this for me...

"I never thought I was blessed" (D: you've both suffered so much, sob)
"Oh, I can't." *thunk* (this can't be good)
*cue CG* (oh god)
*cue heartwarming dialogue* (OH GOD)
*Rin slides to floor* (NOO)
*Sakura has her BSOD* (still in shock over Rin: NOOOOO!!)
Shirou: It's ok, she's still alive! (... o_0) (GIVE ME BACK MY TEARS!!)

Although I guess she's used to it, getting battered physically in Fate and emotionally in UBW. Seen it all. Kinda adds up in the end, I guess :heh:

[Reckoner]

I guess personally, since I played Tsukihime right before Fate/Stay Night, it was hard to feel so emotionally heart wrenched after having it torn out by Nasu already :heh:.

[DragoZERO]

I guess personally, since I played Tsukihime right before Fate/Stay Night, it was hard to feel so emotionally heart wrenched after having it torn out by Nasu already :heh:.
It was the other way around for me. But Tsukihime was still wrenching. Fate will be when I play it again too.

[RadiantBeam]

Although I guess she's used to it, getting battered physically in Fate and emotionally in UBW. Seen it all. Kinda adds up in the end, I guess :heh:

"Don't worry.... Sakura.... this kind of thing... happens to me all the time..." *passes out*

"Nee-san?!"

[Altima of the Gates]

At least with everyone else who dies, she can quite easily say "it's not my fault" or "they deserved it" (and, yet, she still blames herself). With Rin, whilst it is still not truly her fault (she wasn't sane and it was self-defense), it's a lot closer to it, because she orchestrated the fight in the first place. I don't think anything Shirou could say to her would get past her self-loathing, and I don't think she could be with him either, because she would see herself as "unworthy".

I think if Shirou got there fast enough, she could be salvageable. It just might take longer for her to bounce back from it. Remember, in Femme Fatale, Sakura mentions waiting quite a while for him to show up, and after he spared Saber, he blacked out for awhile, we don't know how long. But anyway, there could still be a way if he got there quick enough (although I wouldn't want to see such an ending, she's honestly got enough crap to think about for a lifetime after this war).

This is pretty much why I say the HF True is not "Disney happy" (as some people think) it's "just about the right amount of happy" in comparison to the route's grimdarkness.
Sakura worked hard to help the town heal after HF as the supervisor of Fuyuki, took care of Shirou for two years, graduating on time, even becoming captain of an athletic club for a school year. She did a good job for herself.

Yeah, it does seem that way.

Which, if it's true, makes the idea that she couldn't survive in HF even more laughable (especially if you go by the original FSN CG (and not the toned-down RN version), where there is blood everywhere).

Rin is pretty tough. Shirou noting her strong abs (lol) and Lancer noting her good legs. And she has a bunch of exercise equipment in her basement.

[DragoZERO]

This is pretty much why I say the HF True is not "Disney happy" (as some people think) it's "just about the right amount of happy" in comparison to the route's grimdarkness.No part of anything that Nasu writes is even remotely "Disney happy." :heh:

Rin is pretty tough. Shirou noting her strong abs (lol) and Lancer noting her good legs. And she has a bunch of exercise equipment in her basement.Rin is the best. Second only to Akiha. <3

[Altima of the Gates]

Rin is the best. Second only to Akiha. <3

Akiha is pretty darn awesome. Although I like Ciel slightly more.
Let's see, if we're talking about toughness, there was also Sakura in HA putting Taiga in chokeholds, scaring the bejeezus out of her. Remember, this is the person who throws Shirou around and is a 5th dan in kendo, whose swordsmanship is even greater than Ryougi Shiki's.

The Tohsaka sisters are to be feared. Ilya is right, they're devils. :uhoh::D

[Haak]

Screw you all. No one is better than Ryougi Shiki. :mad:

[Moczo]

Screw you all. No one is better than Ryougi Shiki. :mad:

She's cute, but a bit too, um... terrifying.

Does it say something that the girl I would pick over any other is Taiga?

[RadiantBeam]

Does it say something that the girl I would pick over any other is Taiga?

Awww, Taiga. She never gets enough love.

For me, favorite Fate girl is hands down Rin, no questions asked. For Tsukihime, I'm absolutely gaga for Hisui. That girl is far too adorable for her own good.

[Moczo]

Awww, Taiga. She never gets enough love.

For me, favorite Fate girl is hands down Rin, no questions asked. For Tsukihime, I'm absolutely gaga for Hisui. That girl is far too adorable for her own good.

She doesn't! She's cute, employed, has no baggage, and you don't have to compete with Shirou for her! What's not to like?

I'll say Rin is my second. For Tsukihime... boring choice, but it's gotta be Arcueid. She's just so soul-crushingly cute and cheery. :)

[RadiantBeam]

She doesn't! She's cute, employed, has no baggage, and you don't have to compete with Shirou for her! What's not to like?

I'll say Rin is my second. For Tsukihime... boring choice, but it's gotta be Arcueid. She's just so soul-crushingly cute and cheery. :)

Hisui won my undying love and devotion when she called Shiki blunt right to his face, and he didn't get it until later. :heh: I was laughing for a good minute or so when she did that.

[Moczo]

Hisui won my undying love and devotion when she called Shiki blunt right to his face, and he didn't get it until later. :heh: I was laughing for a good minute or so when she did that.

Ha! Hard to challenge that one. :heh: Though really, except for Ciel (who doesn't really catch my interest) and Kohaku (who... scares me. A lot.), I find them all adorable. :heh:

[Altima of the Gates]

Screw you all. No one is better than Ryougi Shiki. :mad:

Sorry my bro, but Nasu has said that Taiga is more skilled as a swordsman.

As for my favs <-------- and Saber for Fate, and Ciel for Tsukihime. Ciel may have seemed somewhat cold, but she just had really understandable issues with the supernatural, making her seem like a zealot. My second place is Akiha.

[DragoZERO]

Akiha is pretty darn awesome. Although I like Ciel slightly more.
Let's see, if we're talking about toughness, there was also Sakura in HA putting Taiga in chokeholds, scaring the bejeezus out of her. Remember, this is the person who throws Shirou around and is a 5th dan in kendo, whose swordsmanship is even greater than Ryougi Shiki's.Still waiting for HA to be translated totally. :(

Awww, Taiga. She never gets enough love.

For me, favorite Fate girl is hands down Rin, no questions asked. For Tsukihime, I'm absolutely gaga for Hisui. That girl is far too adorable for her own good.Hisui is really adorable... we need a thread for this.

[RadiantBeam]

Hm....

Is there any chance we can ask the mods to make some kind of Tsukihime subthread here in the forum? I mean, the fandom here for Tsukihime seems much smaller than Fate/stay night, so I don't think it would be enough to earn its own subforum, and it's not exactly a recent series or anything for other discussion threads.

[Reckoner]

It would be nice to just hve some sort type-moon works subforum :p.

[RadiantBeam]

It would be nice to just hve some sort type-moon works subforum :p.

That would work, too. :p

[careph]

There already is a Tsukihime thread in the games section, though it would probably receive more attention here:

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=24705

[DragoZERO]

It would be nice to just hve some sort type-moon works subforum :p.That would probably be best.

Anyway, I did make a request for something like this: http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=3525382#post3525382

[RadiantBeam]

So, um...

Off-topic, but still related to Type-Moon/FSN: what happened to Beast's Lair? I tried to access the forum to read some fics, and it seems like it's been suspended.

(Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask, but this seems like the most general thread we have in the forum.)

[DragoZERO]

Account Suspended
In accordance with Section 25(a) of the ProBoards Terms of Service, this forum has been taken offline.

25. TERMINATION

a) By ProBoards

WITHOUT LIMITING ANY OTHER PROVISION OF THIS AGREEMENT, PROBOARDS RESERVES THE RIGHT TO, IN PROBOARDS' SOLE DISCRETION AND WITHOUT NOTICE OR LIABILITY, DENY USE OF THE WEBSITE AND/OR SERVICES TO ANY PERSON FOR ANY REASON OR FOR NO REASON AT ALL, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION FOR ANY BREACH OR SUSPECTED BREACH OF ANY REPRESENTATION, WARRANTY OR COVENANT CONTAINED IN THIS AGREEMENT, OR OF ANY APPLICABLE LAW OR REGULATION.

It would really, really suck if it was lost.

[RadiantBeam]

Yeah, I'm just wondering what they did to get suspended like that. It looked fine the last few times I was lurking there. Would be a shame if it's been taken down for good.

[DragoZERO]

Well, we'll see. Love the avatar, by the way.

[Cherry_Lover]

So, um...

Off-topic, but still related to Type-Moon/FSN: what happened to Beast's Lair? I tried to access the forum to read some fics, and it seems like it's been suspended.

(Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask, but this seems like the most general thread we have in the forum.)

Yesterday, Evospace (the forum admin) got a message saying that the site was in breach of the ToS due to pornographic content (lemon fics etc.), amongst other things (one Harry Potter fanfic was also listed, probably because of IP violations) and needed to remove said content, and posted it on the board as a notice, with the implication that we needed to find another host, because it would be stupid to have a PG-13 board for discussing an eroge. So, we had a long discussion of it, which basically consisted of pretty much everyone (mods included) venting their displeasure at ProBoards and saying that we wouldn't and, indeed, couldn't (due to the shear volume of material and the small number of mods) comply and would need to find somewhere else. One of the ProBoards admins came across this, and they basically said "well, you're clearly not really intending to comply, so we're not going to be very lenient", giving us (IIRC) about 48 hours to resolve it.

So, expecting the site to go down soon, about 50 of us all asked for our PMs to be backed up simultaneously, whilst 4 or 5 of us started crawling the threads with download bots (which are against the ToS, of course...) to save what we could. Of course, this made them realise that we had no intention of remaining long term and, so, they shut down the site ASAP just to fuck us over (and to save themselves the bandwidth) using their generic "fuck you, we can do whatever we like" ToS provision (which Drago handily quoted for us...).

It would really, really suck if it was lost.

Well, RoadBuster (one of the mods) seems to have backed up most of it, and a few others were doing so too. Som, I think most of it is saved.

Yeah, I'm just wondering what they did to get suspended like that. It looked fine the last few times I was lurking there. Would be a shame if it's been taken down for good.

We're going to find another host and start again. Like I said, though, we've got most of the old stuff backed up.

[GlancingReverse]

Yeah, I saw that "Terms of Violation Notice" thread there and was all "Oh snap."

I did like the part where the ProBoard mod came in and was just like "just shut the fuck up and do it".

[Cherry_Lover]

I did like the part where the ProBoard mod came in and was just like "just shut the fuck up and do it".

Well, he was quoting my post, actually....

I probably shouldn't say too much, though, because they have apparently got spies everywhere. Someone made a non-serious threat to blow up ProBoards on our IRC chat (which is only for BL-related people) and they sent an e-mail to the admin threatening legal action. So, I wouldn't be shocked if they're watching this forum too....

[DragoZERO]

They should get their own domain and own hosting. Go to DreamHost and enter the coupon code "DRAGORH" and it'll save you $97.

[RadiantBeam]

Well, there goes the last copy of "Redemption" I had floating around, unless by some chance it was saved. :heh:

Still, glad to see you'll be starting over. I rather like the place, even if I'm not all that active there, and I enjoy the fanfiction posted there.

[Cherry_Lover]

They should get their own domain and own hosting. Go to DreamHost and enter the coupon code "DRAGORH" and it'll save you $97.

Well, that's one possibility. We need to find either an adult-friendly host (preferably one which won't change its mind in the future...) or do it ourselves.

It's quite a big and well-attended site, though, so I don't think one of us could host it on our own computer or anything.

Well, there goes the last copy of "Redemption" I had floating around, unless by some chance it was saved. :heh:

Here you go. Courtesy of google web cache :)

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:eMsjdyuMvNMJ:nrvnqsr.proboards.com/index.cgi%3Fboard%3Dfanfic%26action%3Dprint%26thre ad%3D4908+site:nrvnqsr.proboards.com+%22REdemption %22+Stargate+%22action%3Dprint%22&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&source=www.google.co.uk

I think RoadBuster has a pretty much full backup anyway, though, so I don't think we lost much if anything of the content.

Still, glad to see you'll be starting over. I rather like the place, even if I'm not all that active there, and I enjoy the fanfiction posted there.

Yeah, it would be a real pain if it died, because there's nowhere else comparable. I mean, places like AS are nice to have a discussion on, but there are far more knowledgeable people on BL, since it's a series-specific forum.

[RadiantBeam]

Here you go. Courtesy of google web cache :)

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:eMsjdyuMvNMJ:nrvnqsr.proboards.com/index.cgi%3Fboard%3Dfanfic%26action%3Dprint%26thre ad%3D4908+site:nrvnqsr.proboards.com+%22REdemption %22+Stargate+%22action%3Dprint%22&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&source=www.google.co.uk

I think RoadBuster has a pretty much full backup anyway, though, so I don't think we lost much if anything of the content.

Whoa, wasn't expecting that at all. :heh: Thank you very much! It's nice to still have a copy of it.

I only hope it gets back up soon and in one piece. I was rather enjoying Elf's "Steel and Cherry Blossoms".

[Cherry_Lover]

It's back up now, actually, although the old posts aren't there yet.

http://nrvnqsr.us.to

[DragoZERO]

Sweet, vB.

[Cherry_Lover]

Sweet, vB.

Yeah, it looks awfully familiar... :)

[RadiantBeam]

It's back up now, actually, although the old posts aren't there yet.

http://nrvnqsr.us.to

Oh, hey, looks very good. I kind of like the new design compared to the old one, to be honest.

[DragoZERO]

Oh, hey, looks very good. I kind of like the new design compared to the old one, to be honest.
Yes, vB is the best. It sucks that they got 4.0 though, I much prefer 3.x.x, which is what AnimeSuki is still using. Anyway, it'll be a while until it's all set up,t he Admin CP is quite intricate and the number of options and features are boggling.

[Altima of the Gates]

Anyway, it'll be a while until it's all set up,t he Admin CP is quite intricate and the number of options and features are boggling.

*rips hair out*

Yup. It will take quite awhile.

[RadiantBeam]

Dang, now it looks exactly like the old site. :heh:

[DragoZERO]

Dang, now it looks exactly like the old site. :heh:
Yes, it is quite bad. Luckily you can switch the style on the bottom left.

Anyway... since everyone here is much more reasonable, let's get chatty!

Name a favorite scene: Shirou enlists Lancer's help in UBW but with a certain condition which prompts a wondrous tsundere moment from Rin.

[RadiantBeam]

A favorite scene from UBW, or from the game in general?

[DragoZERO]

A favorite scene from UBW, or from the game in general?
Game in general, I suppose.

[RadiantBeam]

The scene in UBW where Lancer gets Saber to totally lose it and completely freak out for the first time ever is the scene I remember most fondly. :D It's just so awesome.

[DragoZERO]

The scene in UBW where Lancer gets Saber to totally lose it and completely freak out for the first time ever is the scene I remember most fondly. :D It's just so awesome.
I'm afraid I don't remember that one.

[Haak]

I think the funniest one was when during UBW they went to Ilya's castle and had to go through a boundary. Rin's hilarious scream was just so freaking funny. There was also a bit where in UBW Rin's waiting for Shirou outside a classroom and Shirou's debating with himself. The choices were something like this:
1) Go out to her immediatly
2) Hide for a while
3) What girl? I don't see a girl...

[RadiantBeam]

I'm afraid I don't remember that one.

It's the scene after Archer takes Rin, and Shirou and Saber are leaving his house to confront Archer. Lancer pops up to go along with them, and gets a huge kick out of teasing Saber.

[DragoZERO]

There was also a bit where in UBW Rin's waiting for Shirou outside a classroom and Shirou's debating with himself. The choices were something like this:
1) Go out to her immediatly
2) Hide for a while
3) What girl? I don't see a girl...I remember that one. Quite funny indeed. It's actually taken from Tsukihime. I won't say which heroine or anything, but it's funny there too. :heh: (Inventive to play, if you any of you haven't).

It's the scene after Archer takes Rin, and Shirou and Saber are leaving his house to confront Archer. Lancer pops up to go along with them, and gets a huge kick out of teasing Saber.I remember it vaguely, but not enough.

[RadiantBeam]

I remember it vaguely, but not enough.

Shame, it's an awesome scene. It's hilarious to see Saber lose her cool like that with Lancer, when she's always been so calm and composed. :D

[Reckoner]

I'd say one of my favorite scenes was when Shiro promised Saber that Taiga's meal would be ok and then he visits her at the dojo afterwards to receive a harsh punishment :heh:.

[LostHanyou]

"I want a secret attack. A super move would be great."

[Haak]

That was the one the choices i had to make in order to get that hard Bad ending in the Fate Route.

Yeah, I honestly can't blame Saber for killing me after that.

[RadiantBeam]

Don't you also get the Saber bad end in Fate if you spend a lot of time teasing her in general? It lowers your points with her, or something.

[JuGG]

I loved that choice--so funny and so obviously a choice that gets you no points. XD

I can't believe anyone manages to get that bad end first time, that must be quite a feat to peeve Saber so much.

[RadiantBeam]

I loved that choice--so funny and so obviously a choice that gets you no points. XD

I can't believe anyone manages to get that bad end first time, that must be quite a feat to peeve Saber so much.

I think Moczo might have gotten a bad end for Fate on his first try, because he enjoyed teasing Saber so much. :heh:

[Moczo]

I think Moczo might have gotten a bad end for Fate on his first try, because he enjoyed teasing Saber so much. :heh:

... ... ... I am not going to confirm or deny this. :heh:


It is true. She's just so adorable.

[JuGG]

I think Moczo might have gotten a bad end for Fate on his first try, because he enjoyed teasing Saber so much. :heh:
... ... ... I am not going to confirm or deny this. :heh:


It is true. She's just so adorable.

zomg, I bet that was a bit of an annoyance since it's so far into the game. But I suppose it was probably worth it if you enjoyed seeing her angry side. You big tease. ;)

[Altima of the Gates]

I loved that choice--so funny and so obviously a choice that gets you no points. XD

I can't believe anyone manages to get that bad end first time, that must be quite a feat to peeve Saber so much.

Only Lancer (because he is awesome as hell) can do so and survive.
Even Saber calls him manly!

[Moczo]

Only Lancer (because he is awesome as hell) can do so and survive.
Even Saber calls him manly!

Speaking of Lancer and great scenes, his death scene in UBW is probably my favorite non-funny scene in the game. It takes a fucking MAN to kill Kotomine, save Rin, and humiliate Shinji all with a gaping goddamn hole in his heart. UBW cemented Lancer as the Anthropomorphic Personification of BADASS.

[RadiantBeam]

Speaking of Lancer and great scenes, his death scene in UBW is probably my favorite non-funny scene in the game. It takes a fucking MAN to kill Kotomine, save Rin, and humiliate Shinji all with a gaping goddamn hole in his heart. UBW cemented Lancer as the Anthropomorphic Personification of BADASS.

As Lancer said himself: he wouldn't be considered a hero if that kind of thing killed him right away.

*fangirls Lancer*

[Haak]

Hmmm..well as you already know my favourite non funny scene would be Last Episode and then Ilya's Interlude.

As for the most badass moment I reckon that should go to Kotomine himself for taking on Zoken and Assassin. That was just pure awesome.

[Endscape]

My most badass moment has to be Shirou vs Archer. I literally felt a chill on the back of my neck when I watched that, it was that badass.

Last Episode was just so touching and sweet, so was that scene with Shirou and Rin sitting back to back, UBW Good Ending was also super sweet. That scene when Shirou found Sakura in the rain wasn't bad either...

[JuGG]

Only Lancer (because he is awesome as hell) can do so and survive.
Even Saber calls him manly!
That's true--for Saber to give such a compliment is surprising. My Girlfriend loves both Lancer and Archer for their manliness. :( Makes me QQ (mind you I have plenty to look at in this game.... >_>)

Hmm... if we're going for moments then the battle of ideals between Archer and Shriou was certainly great--there was so much text regarding Shirou's idealistic attitude in comparison to Archer's realism that it was fantastic to see it realised in such an epic battle. And the way Archer suddenly clicks that Shirou's belief is absolute is so well done. The UBW film did a terrible job of conveying that melancholic moment. :(

For a touching moment I'd have to go with the last episode. I like the way it ties up the Fate line even though it's the final unlockable; it just made me realise how much time had passed and was satisfying even if vague.

[Moczo]

... I would like to nominate the scene in HF where Rin and Ilya start arguing over which of them is Shirou's 'owner'. Particularly if you choose Ilya and they both freak out. :D

[RadiantBeam]

I would like to bring up the scene in UBW where, if you make the decision to check on Sakura and go to her house, you run into Rin... who lets out the most hilarious little shriek when Shirou calls to her. :D It's priceless.

[JuGG]

I would like to bring up the scene in UBW where, if you make the decision to check on Sakura and go to her house, you run into Rin... who lets out the most hilarious little shriek when Shirou calls to her. :D It's priceless.

I haven't checked out all the scenes voiced yet--I really should. I'll get round to a third playthrough sometime before the end of the year I'm sure. :p

[LostHanyou]

Most badass scene is obviously Berserker defying reality to break Enkidu and stay alive long enough for poor Ilya to die peacefully.

He doesn't get enough credit because he's not the cutest character out there ;_;

[DragoZERO]

I haven't checked out all the scenes voiced yet--I really should. I'll get round to a third playthrough sometime before the end of the year I'm sure. :pYes, the voices add so much. Don't forget the RN patch as well.

Most badass scene is obviously Berserker defying reality to break Enkidu and stay alive long enough for poor Ilya to die peacefully.

He doesn't get enough credit because he's not the cutest character out there ;_;Cute? Is that why he is always overlooked? :heh:

[RadiantBeam]

Cute? Is that why he is always overlooked? :heh:

I find his complete and utter devotion to Ilya cute, does that count? :heh:

[GDB]

I find his complete and utter devotion to Ilya cute, does that count? :heh:

Only in terms of fanart, wherein she does silly things to him (such as decorating him like a Christmas tree).

[RadiantBeam]

Maybe 'sweet' is the word I'm looking for...

[Moczo]

Maybe 'sweet' is the word I'm looking for...

Bersercute.

[Haak]

http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/3532/berserker2bx.png

Can you feel the love?

[RadiantBeam]

Clearly, all he wants is a hug.

[Moczo]

http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/3532/berserker2bx.png

Can you feel the love?

He's really a big old softie deep down.

And deeper than that, he's a mindless homicidal death machine.

And deeper still? Chef!

[JuGG]

He's really a big old softie deep down.

And deeper than that, he's a mindless homicidal death machine.

And deeper still? Chef!
I bet he makes a mean steak. But seriously, who could not love a guy who will happily slaughter anything it your path, just for you.

[RadiantBeam]

It was certainly that trait that convinced Ilya that he would always be loyal to her, if nothing else.

[DragoZERO]

Well, just got my official copy today. I burned the patched, patches, etc. and put it in the case too. :cool:

[RadiantBeam]

Official copy of the game, you mean?

[DragoZERO]

Yes. Imported.

[JuGG]

Yes. Imported.
Which site did you use or was it independent?
I need to get some imports on the go when I get my pay check--been wanting to for a while now.

On a venting note just thought that I finished the anime of Fate/Stay Night today against DragoZERO's advice. Urgh--I bared it for 5 episodes and then it just got worse and worse (my GF is a completionist so we had to finish it... :rolleyes:)--the best bit is that Sakura is brought back to Shirou's and left to sleep for, like, 5 days and she isn't mentioned or explained in anyway. :twitch:

They just failed to focus on the correct aspects at pretty much every turn--butchery.

I really hope most viewers get to play the title.

[Cherry_Lover]

the best bit is that Sakura is brought back to Shirou's and left to sleep for, like, 5 days and she isn't mentioned or explained in anyway. :twitch:


Yep.

And, to round it off, they use the exact same epilogue as the game, despite having altered Sakura's situation with regards to Rin dramatically. They had Sakura's relationship to Rin (sort of) outed, made Rin come to terms with it and then immediately slammed the reset button and pretended it had never happened so they could get back onto the main route.

You could cut that arc out entirely and it would have made no difference to the story as a whole.

[DragoZERO]

Which site did you use or was it independent?
I need to get some imports on the go when I get my pay check--been wanting to for a while now.http://www.jlist.com/product/PCG0142 and for 5% off: DANNYOPPAIJLIST

On a venting note just thought that I finished the anime of Fate/Stay Night today against DragoZERO's advice. Urgh--I bared it for 5 episodes and then it just got worse and worse (my GF is a completionist so we had to finish it... :rolleyes:)--the best bit is that Sakura is brought back to Shirou's and left to sleep for, like, 5 days and she isn't mentioned or explained in anyway. :twitch:

They just failed to focus on the correct aspects at pretty much every turn--butchery.

I really hope most viewers get to play the title.Well, they made RN because of the anime, so it's safe to say more people played it.

If you want, check out the UBW movie. It's more faithful than the TV series, but compacting it all into 90 minutes is impossible, so it ended up just being a "let's animate the best stuff" sort of deal.

You could cut that arc out entirely and it would have made no difference to the story as a whole.I didn't even watch it, lol.

[Haak]

You could cut that arc out entirely and it would have made no difference to the story as a whole.

Which I'm sure was exactly what they were going for being a filler.

Was hilarious though. I'm mean it was just so baffling them suddenly bringing in Rin and Sakura's relationshp like that. It made no sense whatsoever.

[RadiantBeam]

Admittedly, I like the anime, even considering all of its flaws. :heh: But I know that it's mostly because it was the first thing I saw for Fate/stay night, and without it I probably would have never been interested in the game.

[DragoZERO]

I think I still would have face palmed if I watched it without playing the game first.

[Cherry_Lover]

Which I'm sure was exactly what they were going for being a filler.

Well, yes, but filler isn't usually supposed to contain highly important plot revelations and character development....

[RadiantBeam]

Well, yes, but filler isn't usually supposed to contain highly important plot revelations and character development....

Eh, they probably figured it was enough to fill the gap, since the main story of the anime was based on Fate to begin with.

[GDB]

Well, yes, but filler isn't usually supposed to contain highly important plot revelations and character development....

Someone hasn't watched a lot of anime in the last few years.

[Cherry_Lover]

Eh, they probably figured it was enough to fill the gap, since the main story of the anime was based on Fate to begin with.

Except that it really isn't, especially once you know Sakura's true situation. If you've played the game, it seems like a horrible cop-out which briefly teases you with the possibility of salvation for Sakura and then makes everyone act as if nothing had ever happened, and if you've not played the game then it's a horrible, nonsensical mess (seriously, half of the anime viewers couldn't even tell what their relationship was).

[RadiantBeam]

Except that it really isn't, especially once you know Sakura's true situation. If you've played the game, it seems like a horrible cop-out which briefly teases you with the possibility of salvation for Sakura and then makes everyone act as if nothing had ever happened, and if you've not played the game then it's a horrible, nonsensical mess (seriously, half of the anime viewers couldn't even tell what their relationship was).

And in the end it hardly matters either way, since the main story of the anime was always Fate, with just some hints of UBW and Heaven's Feel. :heh: Honestly, when you consider what else they could have done, it probably could have been much worse than it ultimately turned out to be. And in the end, that arc is probably the closest thing we'll get to seeing Heaven's Feel animated for some time.

[Altima of the Gates]

And in the end it hardly matters either way, since the main story of the anime was always Fate, with just some hints of UBW and Heaven's Feel. :heh: Honestly, when you consider what else they could have done, it probably could have been much worse than it ultimately turned out to be.

Well considering the "publicity" TM given Sakura over the years it not so ba...wait no, even by bad visual novel adaption standards it was pretty darn bad. At least in the Tsukihime anime, none of the other girls had to be dressed up in that horrid bondage outfit.

And in the end, that arc is probably the closest thing we'll get to seeing Heaven's Feel animated for some time.

Yeah, don't remind me. I hope those rumors about one being made don't end as rumors, or I would rage.

Fate - check
UBW - check
Fate/zero - check
Hollow wouldn't make much sense, so I don't see it being animated, which is another thing I'm none too happy about. This Carnival Phantasm anime would come close to that, but no cigar.

But yeah, the only route not done yet is HF, and it'd look pretty funny if they did all but one.

[DragoZERO]

I'm surprised they aren't doing HF before Zero. I haven't read Zero yet but I know it refers a lot to HF. I suppose it's because of the content, that they don't want to put it in. A lot more than just the h-scenes were removed from RN after all.

[Haak]

Well I don't think ufotable have any say on when Deen wants to do Heaven's feel and they probably want to quickly cash in on their success of Kara no Kyoukai. They're not simply going to let an oppurtunity like this slip by over a silly little thing like consistency now. :D

[Cherry_Lover]

I'm surprised they aren't doing HF before Zero. I haven't read Zero yet but I know it refers a lot to HF. I suppose it's because of the content, that they don't want to put it in. A lot more than just the h-scenes were removed from RN after all.

Yeah. Also, Deen suck.

I can't see how a Deen-made HF can possibly turn out well, honestly. The other two routes are bad enough, and HF is a lot harder to get right.

[RadiantBeam]

Honestly, considering how much the RN patch alone changed with HF, it would be nearly impossible for it to be animated in its original form. Which, IMO, is sort of stupid; it's certainly a dark route, but a lot of it was only talked about and implied, not outright shown on screen. I think it could be animated.

[FlieS]

So I finally decided to get around to finishing this game. Should I go with voices or no? Not really sure which one I prefer.

[GDB]

Definitely go with voices. It adds so much depth to the characters that you don't really miss until it's not there.

[Haak]

I agree, go with the voices.

[DragoZERO]

Definitely go with voices. It adds so much depth to the characters that you don't really miss until it's not there.
Yes, and don't forget the RN patch!!