Fate/stay night Game discussion (Warning: Spoilers)

[RadiantBeam]

Yes, and don't forget the RN patch!!

I played the game without the RN patch and quite enjoyed it, actually. All I really missed were some new game images, right?

[GDB]

Yeah, I didn't play it with the RN patch the first time either. It's nice, since more is better, but it's hardly game breaking like voices are.

[DragoZERO]

I didn't play with it either, but I have been told that it makes a lot of scenes much better because of the added CGs. Like at the end of HF, for example. You can never go wrong with more CGs.

[Moczo]

Yes. The RN patch is hardly a requirement, but definitely an improvement, and a free one. No reason not to have it.

[hoarfrost]

I played the game without the RN patch and quite enjoyed it, actually. All I really missed were some new game images, right?


Also some new BGMs that elevated certain scenes beyond their already high status. It might not mean as much to everyone but as far as I'm concerned, music direction is critical.

I'd say install the RN patch just to replay the following scenes:

UBW- Saber vs. Berserker
HF- Shirou vs. Berserker
HF- Sparks Liner High and Rider vs. Saber

I haven't played through Fate with RN patch. As far as voices go, it's a big improvement to me even if I often skip through mid sentence if only because it's so rare to have a major VN without voices.

[DragoZERO]

Also some new BGMs that elevated certain scenes beyond their already high status. It might not mean as much to everyone but as far as I'm concerned, music direction is critical.That is a good point. And I think it adds some CG panning too.

I'd say install the RN patch just to replay the following scenes:



I haven't played through Fate with RN patch. As far as voices go, it's a big improvement to me even if I often skip through mid sentence if only because it's so rare to have a major VN without voices.I think I will do that, thanks. And FYI guys, be careful not to mix the saves. In other words, don't load saves you made without the RN patch installed (and vice versa), as it may be (feel free to try first) a bit buggy.

[GDB]

I think I will do that, thanks. And FYI guys, be careful not to mix the saves. In other words, don't load saves you made without the RN patch installed (and vice versa), as it may be (feel free to try first) a bit buggy.

Yeah, there was one or two spots where it sort-of-froze using an old save pre-RN when I power skipped through for the RN images for the gallery. I forget how I fixed it, but I think it was as simple as saving right before it happened a third time (at the same scene) and reloading.

[Kuroi Hadou]

WOOT! My copy of F/SN just arrived in the mail. :D

[Cherry_Lover]

I think I will do that, thanks. And FYI guys, be careful not to mix the saves. In other words, don't load saves you made without the RN patch installed (and vice versa), as it may be (feel free to try first) a bit buggy.

It's worked fine for me, and honestly I don't have much of a choice, because I don't want to have to replay the whole game from start to finish again....

[DragoZERO]

It's worked fine for me, and honestly I don't have much of a choice, because I don't want to have to replay the whole game from start to finish again....
You don't replay it. You do scene skip and navigate with the flow chart.

[Reckoner]

I'm glad I played this originally with the voice patch, it would've been strange without it, considering I saw the anime first.

I wish Type/Moon would get over not adding voices to their VN's though.

[DragoZERO]

Nasu prefers it with no voices. Plus I think it'd drive up the cost a lot.

[Cherry_Lover]

You don't replay it. You do scene skip and navigate with the flow chart.

That's still a pain in the ass, though, given the length of the game. I'd much rather be able to just load the scene straight up from my saved game, and it seems to work fine most (if not all) of the time so I see no reason not to do so.

[wistfulloner]

Wait, Saber's magical energy drains constantly in the Fate route, so Shirou has to make love to her to replenish it. So why is it even though Shirou never forms a romantic relationship with Saber in UBW , she never disappears or becomes weaker as a result? She even says that her magical energy REPLENISHES OVER TIME in UBW.

Is there something I missed out or is "gaining magic energy only by sex" just a convenient excuse for fanservice in Fate?

[GDB]

She doesn't use Excalibur/Excaliblast in UBW until after she contracts with Rin. In Fate, I believe she's able to keep it at a stable level prior to defeating Rider, and I don't really recall any difference there in UBW.

[wistfulloner]

She doesn't use Excalibur/Excaliblast in UBW until after she contracts with Rin. In Fate, I believe she's able to keep it at a stable level prior to defeating Rider, and I don't really recall any difference there in UBW.

Yeah but, in UBW Saber doesn't just keep it at a stable level, she even regenerates. If I remember correctly, that was when she was still Shirou's servant, so that's a contradiction right there.

[Aqua Knight]

Can someone remind me what did Archer say to Shirou in HF, while abandoning his desire to kill him?
If anyone can find this moment anywhere (youtube, etc.), please post here, thanks.

[Haak]

Archer (To Shirou): "So you survived huh? Well you didn't touch the main body so the most that it can do to you is make you ill"
Saber: "Archer, do you know what that shadow is?"
Archer: "Who knows? But one thing is clear - That shadow is what's been draining the life from the townspeople ever since Caster's death. It seems this is no time to pursue personal grudges, isn't that right Emiya Shirou?"
Shirou: "What?"
Archer: As for what that shadow was, your intuition is correct. Hmph, I'm summoned a servant but I'm to fight it after all.
Saber: "Archer, who are you?"
Archer: "I see. You're not a guardian yet so you must not have fought something like that before. Man it seems i'll be doing the same thing no matter where I go."

Heaven's Feel 7th Day - Gap between the two.

I'd post a youtube link to the scene but I'm not sure that's allowed. Just search for it.

[Aqua Knight]

Thanks a lot. Did you copy it or write by urself?

[Haak]

Thanks a lot. Did you copy it or write by urself?

I copied it from what I read whilst playing it. (There's no way I could remember that much detail)

[SugarSweetNightmare]

omg i juz realise archer = Shirou o.0

[RadiantBeam]

omg i juz realise archer = Shirou o.0

Unlimited Blade Works was not at all subtle about that revelation. :heh:

[DragoZERO]

I suspected it when I was playing Fate, UBW merely confirmed it.

[Aqua Knight]

I first watched anime and then read some spoiler about Archer was Shirou and I was truly astonished.

[alumnox]

Believe it or not just a few minutes ago I finished playing Fate/Stay night pc version with the English patch and start reading the fate /zero novel but a question is tormenting my soul .

In the end of the heavens feel ending Rider tells Tohsaka that she needs to talk to her in private and Tohosaka says that they can chat at her house the next day.

What is Rider question or about ? what they need to talk about ?

[DragoZERO]

Anyone know a way to play this on an Apple computer?

[Jaden]

No easy way.

There's a way to port the game to ONScripter, which is available for mac (source: http://tangerine.sweetstyle.jp/?eid=528334 , I can't translate it well though) , also people have been experimenting with that on tablets and hacked PSPs and whatnot. Though it always means low resolution, no effects, font problems etc.

Or you could just get windows for your mac, setting up some kind of dual boot. Never done that myself.

[DragoZERO]

You can put Windows on an Apple computer easily, but it costs like $200, lol.

[Cherry_Lover]

Well, there's an obvious solution for that....

[DragoZERO]

Not everyone supports that solution, ya know. And it's not like you can use an old Windows XP disc since you can't activate the OS anymore, lol.

[Cherry_Lover]

Well, if you've paid for a copy and they won't let you activate it, then what is wrong with breaking the activation system so you can get around that, or obtaining a copy of the product you legally purchased (and which is not even end of life yet) in a manner that allows you get around their ridiculous DRM?

[BladeEntity]

After watching Fate/Zero Episode 1 I can't help but feel that there were some aspects that should have been covered in Fate and UBW route. Namely Sakura's situation which was only revealed in HF, honestly I felt that the Fate and UBW routes simply brushed her aside. And sort of makes you wonder what kind of life she has after the war.

Out of the 3 heroines I dislike Sakura and yet I feel her character needs to be concluded in the other routes.

From the first episode you already find out that she has the worms at what age 7... Seriously someone needs to kill Zokan

I also don't feel that one route is more important than the rest...

[Ragna92]

After watching Fate/Zero Episode 1 I can't help but feel that there were some aspects that should have been covered in Fate and UBW route. Namely Sakura's situation which was only revealed in HF, honestly I felt that the Fate and UBW routes simply brushed her aside. And sort of makes you wonder what kind of life she has after the war.

Out of the 3 heroines I dislike Sakura and yet I feel her character needs to be concluded in the other routes.

From the first episode you already find out that she has the worms at what age 7... Seriously someone needs to kill Zokan

I also don't feel that one route is more important than the rest...

Well it's true. All route are equally important, and that's what I like about Fate stay night.

[Cherry_Lover]

After watching Fate/Zero Episode 1 I can't help but feel that there were some aspects that should have been covered in Fate and UBW route. Namely Sakura's situation which was only revealed in HF, honestly I felt that the Fate and UBW routes simply brushed her aside.

Well, it would have been nice, but I'm not sure how they could have done that without spoilering the plot of HF itself.

And sort of makes you wonder what kind of life she has after the war.

Yeah....

I dislike the Fate and (especially) UBW endings for this reason. They're played as "happy endings" and yet, behind the scenes, Sakura is left to be tortured by Zouken indefinitely.

Out of the 3 heroines I dislike Sakura and yet I feel her character needs to be concluded in the other routes.

Yeah, I wish Nasu would give at least some indication of what happens to her.

Seriously someone needs to kill Zokan

Yeah....

That's another thing that really irritates me with the Fate and UBW endings. How Zouken basically gets off scot-free for everything he's done.

Also, that's not really a spoiler, it's stated in the game that she was with the Matous for eleven years prior to FSN.

[whatbob1]

I think the problem with Sakura's situation for Fate and UBW is due to how Zouken is characterized and probably Nasu's fault as well. For Sakura to be saved, Zouken has to be defeated but he isn't even introduced at all in Fate or UBW.

And even if he was introduced in Fate or UBW, I think it was said he wasn't even planning on getting involved in the 5th war.

I honestly just think Nasu wrote Fate first, then UBW, and HF last. When he finished HF, he probably facepalmed or something and realized if he wanted to address Sakura's situation he would have to re-write Fate/UBW quite a bit and make Zouken the big bad guy instead of Kotomine and Gilgamesh for those two routes. But that would also mean having to re-do Zouken's characterization as well and where his soul is.

Now if Zouken had been portrayed as the big bad guy in Fate and UBW, then it would of address Sakura's situation without having to possibly spoil the plot for HF.

[Cherry_Lover]

I think the problem with Sakura's situation for Fate and UBW is due to how Zouken is characterized and probably Nasu's fault as well.

Well, yeah. The whole way her situation is set up makes it hard to save her "incidentally".

For Sakura to be saved, Zouken has to be defeated but he isn't even introduced at all in Fate or UBW.

Yeah, exactly. But, if he was, it'd be a spoiler, so....

And even if he was introduced in Fate or UBW, I think it was said he wasn't even planning on getting involved in the 5th war.

Yeah.

I honestly just think Nasu wrote Fate first, then UBW, and HF last. When he finished HF, he probably facepalmed or something and realized if he wanted to address Sakura's situation he would have to re-write Fate/UBW quite a bit and make Zouken the big bad guy instead of Kotomine and Gilgamesh for those two routes. But that would also mean having to re-do Zouken's characterization as well and where his soul is.

That's probably partially true.

He almost certainly did write Fate and UBW before HF, but equally I think he had decided on Sakura's backstory before he actually wrote Fate and UBW in any detail. Certainly, there is enough foreshadowing in the first two routes that it's clear that Nasu had HF in mind when he wrote them, at least in part.

Now if Zouken had been portrayed as the big bad guy in Fate and UBW, then it would of address Sakura's situation without having to possibly spoil the plot for HF.

The problem with that is that it'd have made HF somewhat more anti-climatic. Also, given how Zouken is, addressing Sakura's situation without spoilering it would be very difficult.

[DragoZERO]

It's all about the heroine in each route. It happens in so many eroges. And I think leaving Sakura out of Fate and UBW made the drama of HF that much more powerful. There is no single route where everyone makes it out perfectly. They are separate stories, after all.

[Jaden]

Yep, same kind of writing in Tsukihime. It's definately something Nasu does deliberately, not some kind of oversight. In each ending the minor characters of the route get shafted, and some serious issue is left unresolved. It's not a problem as long as he doesn't make sequels. :p

[DragoZERO]

Not to mention Nasu is a major troll. :heh:

[Reckoner]

Saving someone means not saving another. :heh:

[Cherry_Lover]

Yep, same kind of writing in Tsukihime. It's definately something Nasu does deliberately, not some kind of oversight. In each ending the minor characters of the route get shafted, and some serious issue is left unresolved. It's not a problem as long as he doesn't make sequels. :p

It makes the ending of the first two routes totally shit in hindsight, though, especially given Sakura's relationship to Rin.

Plus, I don't recall seeing Saber getting shafted in UBW, or Rin getting shafted in any route, so why should Sakura be ignored?

[DragoZERO]

Saving someone means not saving another. :heh:
You sir, deserve ten cookies for that. Excellent... simply excellent.

*applause*

[Haak]

Saving someone means not saving another. :heh:

Screw that. Ilya's death in UBW almost made me cry. Saber's death in HF pissed me off. And Sakura's absence in the other two disturbed the hell out of me.

I want to save them all. DX

[alumnox]

Screw that. Ilya's death in UBW almost made me cry. Saber's death in HF pissed me off. And Sakura's absence in the other two disturbed the hell out of me.

I want to save them all. DX
heheheh well I think that's why the games are awesome. The game makes you care for the characters to much that when you get the classic Nasu ending you just want to go to japan and kick his ass.

Yes I confess, I tried to save saber at the end in HF :naughty:

I think the normal ending in UBW is the closest to everyone happy of course you need to overlook the fact that Sakura would continue under zouken vigilant care :heh:

And Ilya well this one its just sad anyway you look at it but we will find out more about it in fate /zero.

Ilia truly is one you can't save no matter what.

[Cherry_Lover]

I think the normal ending in UBW is the closest to everyone happy of course you need to overlook the fact that Sakura would continue under zouken vigilant care :heh:

In what way is UBW Good the closest to everyone being happy? Rider is dead, Ilya is dead and Sakura (who is Rin's sister and who Shirou sees as "family", remember) is still being tortured, with no obvious way to save her even if they do find out.

[Auria]

In what way is UBW Good the closest to everyone being happy? Rider is dead, Ilya is dead and Sakura (who is Rin's sister and who Shirou sees as "family", remember) is still being tortured, with no obvious way to save her even if they do find out.

Well, it was already admitted that Sakuras situation has to be overlooked to consider that a good ending (and at this point in the game you don't know anything about what will happen in the 3rd route), Rider is a servant so one doesn't expect her to stay in this world (tbh I found her presence in the HF true end even a bit awkward) and Ilya would have died soon anyway, so this route is probably one of the most positive endings F/SN has to offer, though it of course depends on the player's priorities :heh:

[Haak]

Paradoxically, I consider UBW Good End to be the worst one since it felt like the cheapest.

[Auria]

Paradoxically, I consider UBW Good End to be the worst one since it felt like the cheapest.

Well, my analysis of this good end was under different aspects... I'm no fan of that ending either :heh: (This smiley is overused)

[alumnox]

In what way is UBW Good the closest to everyone being happy? Rider is dead, Ilya is dead and Sakura (who is Rin's sister and who Shirou sees as "family", remember) is still being tortured, with no obvious way to save her even if they do find out.

hehehe just as Auria said I was talking in terms of Nasu "happy endings".

Just as the tiger dojo says in life you just cant have it all.

About Rider surviving in HF (pure speculation here) I think that one comes from the fact that ataraxia was already an on going project and Stheno and Euryale (rider/medea sisters) existed at least as drawings since the initial FSN.

[Reckoner]

Screw that. Ilya's death in UBW almost made me cry. Saber's death in HF pissed me off. And Sakura's absence in the other two disturbed the hell out of me.

I want to save them all. DX

Hey, hey, hey. It was the character in your avatar who said it, not me :D.

[Cherry_Lover]

Well, it was already admitted that Sakuras situation has to be overlooked to consider that a good ending (and at this point in the game you don't know anything about what will happen in the 3rd route), Rider is a servant so one doesn't expect her to stay in this world (tbh I found her presence in the HF true end even a bit awkward) and Ilya would have died soon anyway, so this route is probably one of the most positive endings F/SN has to offer, though it of course depends on the player's priorities :heh:

But the only real difference between HF True and UBW Good is that Sakura has been saved and Saber has been swapped with Rider. Plus Ilya at least gets to die happy. So, how exactly is the UBW Good ending better?

[Endscape]

But the only real difference between HF True and UBW Good is that Sakura has been saved and Saber has been swapped with Rider. Plus Ilya at least gets to die happy. So, how exactly is the UBW Good ending better?

It all depends on what characters you like. For Saber fans, UBW Good is great because it's all the awesome of UBW with Saber at the end, which is why I like it. For people like those, UBW Good would be better than HF True.

Not to mention, all those innocent townspeople don't die in UBW Good, so if you feel pity for them...

[Cherry_Lover]

It all depends on what characters you like. For Saber fans, UBW Good is great because it's all the awesome of UBW with Saber at the end, which is why I like it. For people like those, UBW Good would be better than HF True.

Well, perhaps, but it's clearly not a truly "happy" ending, certainly not any more than HF True is anyway.

Not to mention, all those innocent townspeople don't die in UBW Good, so if you feel pity for them...

No, but it's said that there's going to be another big war in ten or so years time to shut down the Grail permanently, and innocent people are sure to die in that, so....

[Ragna92]

I felt that Heavens feel true end felt the most perfect. The sisters can finally get along with eachother, and no more torture for Sakura. She can finally be happy. Plus the way it ended with Rin, Sakura, Rider, and Shirou looking at the cherry blossoms was just fantastic.

But my favorite end was probably UBW True(I like Rin too much)

[Cherry_Lover]

Well, if you like Rin, then surely HF True should be your favourite end, because it's the only one where she's not going to have to deal with the fact that she left her little sister to be tortured by a monster whilst she ran off to London....

[Endscape]

Well, perhaps, but it's clearly not a truly "happy" ending, certainly not any more than HF True is anyway.

I like to think that they are equally happy, barring the Sakura thing.

[LostHanyou]

Let's be honest, UBW Good End is an extremely (IMO obnoxiously) happy ending - the Sakura issue is never dealt with so people simply do not like drawing parallels that, behind the scenes, very little is actually fixed aside from Shirou's ideals. However, I don't really think people need to go to the extent of acknowledging that the ending isn't happy because Sakura is not involved, since upon completing the ending most people had never finished HF in the first place. Even after completing HF, the feeling of "Wow, UBW good is really happy!" isn't so easy to argue away so long as the feeling is still there.

This discussion reminds me of a fanfic called Dear Tohsaka. Pretty decent read, by the way.

[DragoZERO]

http://i.imgur.com/Se0ga.jpg

UBW good is the best because Saber is there at the end. And I think we talked about how they could go and save Sakura after that and I'd trade one loli for two heroines, sorry.

[Haak]

Hey, hey, hey. It was the character in your avatar who said it, not me :D.

...well you've got me there. I guess I'm going to have to change avatars at some point. It would be a bit strange to have a sig of assassin and an avatar of Kamijou Touma, though...

No, but it's said that there's going to be another big war in ten or so years time to shut down the Grail permanently, and innocent people are sure to die in that, so....

I thought the Grail gets dismantled by a certain someone...

In any case I don't think you can compare innocents who definitely die to innocents who might die. If I recall, that was the whole point of not killing Sakura (at least from my perspective).

Well, if you like Rin, then surely HF True should be your favourite end, because it's the only one where she's not going to have to deal with the fact that she left her little sister to be tortured by a monster whilst she ran off to London....

It's more than possible that she moves on from Sakura and never finds out. Heck it's possible that Emiya somehow manages to find out and saves Sakura (at least that's what I'd like to believe). You know that Sakura's Letter fanfic isn't actually canon...

[Cherry_Lover]

I thought the Grail gets dismantled by a certain someone...

According to Nasu, no, it doesn't.

In any case I don't think you can compare innocents who definitely die to innocents who might die. If I recall, that was the whole point of not killing Sakura (at least from my perspective).

Well, it depends what you're talking about. If you're talking about whether it's morally right to murder an innocent civilian in cold blood then, yeah, that's definitely the case. But, if you're talking about how "happy" the ending is or is likely to be, I see no reason why you shouldn't.

It's more than possible that she moves on from Sakura and never finds out.

Then she's a total fucking failure of a sister who doesn't deserve to be happy. You don't just "move on" from your fucking family.

Heck it's possible that Emiya somehow manages to find out and saves Sakura (at least that's what I'd like to believe). You know that Sakura's Letter fanfic isn't actually canon...

Yeah, it's possible, but it's not canon. And, even without that, HF True is still just as happy an ending.

[Haak]

Well, it depends what you're talking about. If you're talking about whether it's morally right to murder an innocent civilian in cold blood then, yeah, that's definitely the case. But, if you're talking about how "happy" the ending is or is likely to be, I see no reason why you shouldn't.

What's the difference? If I could choose an ending between one where people might die and one where people definitely die, I'd call that a no brainer.


Then she's a total fucking failure of a sister who doesn't deserve to be happy. You don't just "move on" from your fucking family.


Um...why not? Your family is who you percieve it to be. There's nothing wrong with Rin deicidng that she it's not her responsibility to look after Sakura if she doesn't feel there's anything wrong. I don't even think it was her responsibility in the first place and I doubt she considered it that way when she was looking out for Sakura. Imo, it was her own desire to watch over Sakura.


Yeah, it's possible, but it's not canon. And, even without that, HF True is still just as happy an ending.

*shrugs* I'm not really arguing against that.

[BladeEntity]

From my point of view, in terms of ending all of them are good endings but what ending people think are happy are relative to what kind of ending they want. e.g. which heroine is alive, which girl wins Shirou's heart...

However from a storytelling point of view, all endings are good and equivelent. It's very similar to the law of chaos theory, where one event can lead to similing unrealted events. But such is the why of a VN especially one from Nasu. The initial catalyst, which is paying attention to the different heroines caused the different routes assuming that all routes could be played without having to play one to get to another. I think this choice from Nasu makes the game very linear but also improves the storytelling style of FSN. Firstly we have build up of a single heroine allowing us to get to know one extremely well at a time, in doing so leaves the others more or less shafted this would obviously improve sympathy towards Sakura during HF which from a literature perspective is good writing.

This also sort of makes the story linear and rather biased to which is a more canon route as it would appear that HF is the most important route of all. However since there is a law of cause and effect all routes are valid such is a VN despite FSN seemingly linear nature, for example the initial choices would lead different routes, paying more attention to Sakura to access HF would lead you to realise the issues with her family her life. Or becoming captivated with Saber and sort of leaving Sakura behind.

This leads to a second point about the VN though. From the start I felt that it was a story focused on Shirou and his ideals. The 3 routes show a progression of his idealistic nature. The fate route showed an idealistic Shirou who would try to save as many people as he can as shone when he sacrifices his feelings for Saber and destroys the Grail.
UBW route shows a Shirou with more changing ideals a period of learning, this is done through Archer who wants to change that idealistic nature and Shioru learning that he cannot save everyone.
HF route showed that Shirou takes the most realistic approach to his ideals that he must make a choice of who he wants to save, he cannot save everyone in other words, sacrifice the many for the one.

Oddly enough the different choices of Shirou is reflected on the different heroines.

Idealistic Shirou - Saber who gave up her humnity for her country as king
Growing Shirou - Rin who understands the need to save people but also has the character who is willing to make the necessary sacrifices
Realistic Shirou - No offense to Sakura fans but she while having alot of compassion was also extremely selfish when it came to the lives of people and would have easily sacrificed many for Shirou. You can dissagree on me with that since I can't remember that well.

This points to the idea that each route is equal in importance despite the fact that they had to be played in certain orders. Regardless of which Heroine you like most, I would say that the kind of Shioru chosen would fall for a different girl and lead to different events.

My longest Post ever.... -____-

[Haak]

I think the real reason people say UBW Good End is the happiest one is because they look at it from Emiya's perspective in what he doesn't lose:
Fate End: Loses Saber
UBW True End: Loses no one
UBW Good End: Loses no one + Bonus Saber
HF Normal End: Dies
HF True End: Loses Ilya (maybe Saber if that counts)

[Cherry_Lover]

Um...why not? Your family is who you percieve it to be. There's nothing wrong with Rin deicidng that she it's not her responsibility to look after Sakura if she doesn't feel there's anything wrong. I don't even think it was her responsibility in the first place and I doubt she considered it that way when she was looking out for Sakura. Imo, it was her own desire to watch over Sakura.

But Rin does perceive Sakura as her "sister", and further she knows how much Shirou means to her, and that she's always sad except when he's around. Given that, to run off to London with him and forget about her without even looking into why would be a real dickish move.

Realistic Shirou - No offense to Sakura fans but she while having alot of compassion was also extremely selfish when it came to the lives of people and would have easily sacrificed many for Shirou. You can dissagree on me with that since I can't remember that well.

OK, what?

Since when is Sakura "selfish", or at least unusually so? Hell, she's not the one who quite willingly fought in a war that would likely result in the deaths of a bunch of people just because she wanted to prove to herself that she could win it....

I think the real reason people say UBW Good End is the happiest one is because they look at it from Emiya's perspective in what he doesn't lose:
Fate End: Loses Saber
UBW True End: Loses no one
UBW Good End: Loses no one + Bonus Saber
HF Normal End: Dies
HF True End: Loses Ilya (maybe Saber if that counts)

He loses Sakura, eventually, unless he finds a way to save her.

[Haak]

But Rin does perceive Sakura as her "sister", and further she knows how much Shirou means to her, and that she's always sad except when he's around. Given that, to run off to London with him and forget about her without even looking into why would be a real dickish move.

Yes, I'm aware that Rin sees her as her sister. What i'm trying to say is that she has no obligation to. It's her choice, and if she's changed her mind (she was more stuck in limbo really) then that's her choice.

And whose to say that she didn't check with Sakura first? It's not like Sakura has a case anymore. Not when Shirou has already decided where his preferences lie.

@ second point - We don't know what happens to Sakura nor can we be sure how he'd react. They might have already gone their seperate ways and lost contact at that point. If he even learns truth behind her death (and there's no guaruntee that he will) he might simply treat her tragedy the same way he treated the orphans' tragedy in Fate, and move on.

[Cherry_Lover]

Yes, I'm aware that Rin sees her as her sister. What i'm trying to say is that she has no obligation to. It's her choice, and if she's changed her mind (she was more stuck in limbo really) then that's her choice.

No, not really. Sakura is her sister, whether she likes it or not, and she clearly does care about her. To just bury that because of some true magus bullshit is not at all justifiable.

And whose to say that she didn't check with Sakura first? It's not like Sakura has a case anymore. Not when Shirou has already decided where his preferences lie.

I'm not saying "Rin shouldn't be with Shirou", I'm saying she should check up on Sakura better.

@ second point - We don't know what happens to Sakura nor can we be sure how he'd react. They might have already gone their seperate ways and lost contact at that point. If he even learns truth behind her death (and there's no guaruntee that he will) he might simply treat her tragedy the same way he treated the orphans' tragedy in Fate, and move on.

I don't see Shirou just "losing contact" with someone he sees as family, and I certainly don't see him not being very upset that she died, especially if he knows what happened to her. There's a big difference between a bunch of orphans in a basement and a girl who you saw as part of your "family" (and who you abandoned).

[Haak]

No, not really. Sakura is her sister, whether she likes it or not, and she clearly does care about her. To just bury that because of some true magus bullshit is not at all justifiable.

Lol, subjective-fu. I already made the point that such things can be seen as relative and this is clearly the point of view that Rin chose. And there is absolutely nothing wrong that. It's Rin deicison whether she can see Sakura as her sister. She doesn't have to and has no obligation to. It's her decision and there's no reason why she can't.


I'm not saying "Rin shouldn't be with Shirou", I'm saying she should check up on Sakura better.

You mentioned that Rin knows how much Shirou means to Sakura so I pointed out that it's possible she already took that into account.


I don't see Shirou just "losing contact" with someone he sees as family, and I certainly don't see him not being very upset that she died, especially if he knows what happened to her. There's a big difference between a bunch of orphans in a basement and a girl who you saw as part of your "family" (and who you abandoned).

Shirou was also very upset with the orphans as well and seriously considered going against his beliefs to save them as well. It's very debatable whether he will still consider Sakura a part of his family as Sakura becomes less and less a part of his life. Bonds can be gradually lost like that. Again, this is all assuming that Shirou doesn't find out about Sakura's true tragedy nor manages to save her. There's simply too many ifs to conclusively say that he loses her the same way he loses the other heroines (This is why I put a question mark over his loss of Saber in HF). The other heroines fates and what they meant to Shirou are made explicitly clear. Sakura's case is far more ambiguous.

[Cherry_Lover]

Lol, subjective-fu. I already made the point that such things can be seen as relative and this is clearly the point of view that Rin chose. And there is absolutely nothing wrong that. It's Rin deicison whether she can see Sakura as her sister. She doesn't have to and has no obligation to. It's her decision and there's no reason why she can't.

I disagree. She clearly cares for Sakura, and if she shits on her like you're saying she would be "entitled" to and follows her father's bullshit "true magus" ideal at Sakura's expense then I have absolutely no wish to see her "happy". If she does that then she's just a total failure as a sister and a failure as a human being.

You mentioned that Rin knows how much Shirou means to Sakura so I pointed out that it's possible she already took that into account.

How? How could she "take that into account" and then go through with it anyway, without even making any effort to check up on why Sakura is always unhappy?

Shirou was also very upset with the orphans as well and seriously considered going against his beliefs to save them as well.

Are you seriously claiming that he's going to be more upset about a bunch of orphans he doesn't know than a girl who is like family to him and who he actually reasonably could have saved?

It's very debatable whether he will still consider Sakura a part of his family as Sakura becomes less and less a part of his life. Bonds can be gradually lost like that.

I don't think it's likely, especially not for someone like Shirou. Sakura is very close to him, as is Taiga, and I don't see him just forgetting about them.

Again, this is all assuming that Shirou doesn't find out about Sakura's true tragedy nor manages to save her. There's simply too many ifs to conclusively say that he loses her the same way he loses the other heroines (This is why I put a question mark over his loss of Saber in HF). The other heroines fates and what they meant to Shirou are made explicitly clear. Sakura's case is far more ambiguous.

Well, this is definitely true, which is part of why I dislike the UBW endings. There is a huge amount of uncertainty there about how happy the ending really is. Not only for Sakura, but also for Shirou and Rin, by extension.

[BladeEntity]

Lol, subjective-fu. I already made the point that such things can be seen as relative and this is clearly the point of view that Rin chose. And there is absolutely nothing wrong that. It's Rin deicison whether she can see Sakura as her sister. She doesn't have to and has no obligation to. It's her decision and there's no reason why she can't.

Agreed, this is obviously assuming that the paradigms in which the FSN world is different and the magus have to live by different rules. Rin had absolutely no obligation to look out for Sakura as far as the society of magicians are considered, once Tokiomi gave Sakura to the Matou, she was not Rin's sister anymore, therefore looking out for Sakura is part of her own decision. However that was all she could do, since she would not go against the decision her father made.


Since when is Sakura "selfish", or at least unusually so? Hell, she's not the one who quite willingly fought in a war that would likely result in the deaths of a bunch of people just because she wanted to prove to herself that she could win it....

I say Sakura was selfish because, her character would have forsaken everything for Shirou making her love for Shirou a very selfish one. And that would be similar to the mindset that Shirou has during the HF route.

I noticed that a lot of the dislike pointed at routes not HF is because the Sakura situation is not resolved, yeah well her character completely disappeared during the earlier routes in other words she was insignificant in those routes therefore by those routes standards and since Sakura is deemed not important, the other routes are happy. And its always nice to assume that if and only if Shirou finds out about Zoken, then Sakura can be saved. And he would save her but that would be the big IF in the earlier 2 routes.

[Vicious108]

I noticed that a lot of the dislike pointed at routes not HF is because the Sakura situation is not resolved, yeah well her character completely disappeared during the earlier routes in other words she was insignificant in those routes therefore by those routes standards and since Sakura is deemed not important, the other routes are happy.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh230/liberal_degenerate/1317476192707.jpg

[Haak]

I disagree. She clearly cares for Sakura, and if she shits on her like you're saying she would be "entitled" to and follows her father's bullshit "true magus" ideal at Sakura's expense then I have absolutely no wish to see her "happy". If she does that then she's just a total failure as a sister and a failure as a human being.

Why is she shitting on her? Because she hasn't factored in why Sakura is unhappy unless she's around Shirou?

If that's the case can I just point that if that's not a factor anymore, then you would acknowledge that she's totally in line to do what she likes, right?


How? How could she "take that into account" and then go through with it anyway, without even making any effort to check up on why Sakura is always unhappy?

It's not hard to guess why Sakura is always unhappy *cough*Shinji*cough*. In any case it's more than possible that Rin already checked up on why and couldn't find anything wrong (Like in that scene where she goes off screen with Sakura to patch things up with her). Or she may have simply gauged how reasonable it was from Shirou who also decided it's no problem to leave Sakura without a second thought.


Are you seriously claiming that he's going to be more upset about a bunch of orphans he doesn't know than a girl who is like family to him and who he actually reasonably could have saved?

Okay, first things first. They were more than just a bunch of orphans to Shirou. That was made all too clear in the VN and I think you're seriously undermining what they meant to Shirou. Secondly could he have reasonably saved Sakura? No. The only way for Shirou to save Sakura in HF was for Sakura to become Dark Sakura and become suicidal enough to rip the worm zoken out of her body, and Shirou to see and use Rule Breaker. Also Shirou had the chance to save the orphans as well. Finally, I'm not claiming he would be more upset. I'm not even claiming it would be the same. What I'm saying is that whilst Shirou might care more for Sakura it's not significant enough for him to treat her more seperately. I think this is actually the reason why Sakura's fate was made ambiguous in the other two routes in the first place. Because this was how he would've treated her tragedy.


I don't think it's likely, especially not for someone like Shirou. Sakura is very close to him, as is Taiga, and I don't see him just forgetting about them.

I think it's likely. Consider how little Sakura came up in the other two arcs, how litle she mattered when Shirou made the deicison to leave town with Rin and now times that tenfold and you've got an idea of how little Sakura is going to mean to Shirou from now on. Imagine if Shirou is already embroiled in another conlifct (as only Shirou could be) and then finds out that Sakura's dead. Do you think he's going to be any position to leave that conflict and get the next plane to Fukuyu? I don't think so. If Shirou plans to become a superhero then unless he has Facebook I don't see him keeping a significant contact with Sakura.

[Cherry_Lover]

Agreed, this is obviously assuming that the paradigms in which the FSN world is different and the magus have to live by different rules. Rin had absolutely no obligation to look out for Sakura as far as the society of magicians are considered, once Tokiomi gave Sakura to the Matou, she was not Rin's sister anymore, therefore looking out for Sakura is part of her own decision. However that was all she could do, since she would not go against the decision her father made.

I disagree with this. She is still Sakura's sister, no matter what Tokiomi says. Further, she does care for her, and to let go of that without ensuring that Sakura is OK is just nasty.

I say Sakura was selfish because, her character would have forsaken everything for Shirou making her love for Shirou a very selfish one. And that would be similar to the mindset that Shirou has during the HF route.

How is loving someone "selfish"?

I noticed that a lot of the dislike pointed at routes not HF is because the Sakura situation is not resolved, yeah well her character completely disappeared during the earlier routes in other words she was insignificant in those routes therefore by those routes standards and since Sakura is deemed not important, the other routes are happy. And its always nice to assume that if and only if Shirou finds out about Zoken, then Sakura can be saved. And he would save her but that would be the big IF in the earlier 2 routes.

The fact that Sakura's situation isn't explicitly mentioned does not mean that it's OK to leave her to suffer.

Why is she shitting on her? Because she hasn't factored in why Sakura is unhappy unless she's around Shirou?

Because she takes the only person that gives Sakura's life any meaning whatsoever and runs off to London with him, without even checking up on Sakura's situation at all.

If that's the case can I just point that if that's not a factor anymore, then you would acknowledge that she's totally in line to do what she likes, right?

But how is it "not a factor"?

It's not hard to guess why Sakura is always unhappy *cough*Shinji*cough*.

Except no, because he's dead (or being nicer) and she's still unhappy.

In any case it's more than possible that Rin already checked up on why and couldn't find anything wrong (Like in that scene where she goes off screen with Sakura to patch things up with her).

Then she didn't fucking look closely enough, did she...?

Or she may have simply gauged how reasonable it was from Shirou who also decided it's no problem to leave Sakura without a second thought.

How the hell is that "reasonable"? Shirou doesn't even know that she's sad, because she's always happy around him, and that in itself should only throw up more problems, unless Rin decides to be a selfish uncaring bitch and shit all over her own fucking sister without a second thought.

Okay, first things first. They were more than just a bunch of orphans to Shirou. That was made all too clear in the VN and I think you're seriously undermining what they meant to Shirou.

They mean a hell of a lot less than Sakura does.

Secondly could he have reasonably saved Sakura? No. The only way for Shirou to save Sakura in HF was for Sakura to become Dark Sakura and become suicidal enough to rip the worm zoken out of her body, and Shirou to see and use Rule Breaker.

He could have at least tried, and he would certainly blame himself ofr not noticing.

What I'm saying is that whilst Shirou might care more for Sakura it's not significant enough for him to treat her more seperately.

In what way is someone who he sees as family dying without him even noticing that something was wrong and at least trying to help her the same as a bunch of orphans dying?

I think this is actually the reason why Sakura's fate was made ambiguous in the other two routes in the first place. Because this was how he would've treated her tragedy.

Bullshit.

Shirou would not have just forgotten about it, he's too caring for that, and he sure as hell isn't going to overlook the fact that a fucking girl who he knows was tortured to death under his fucking nose....

I think it's likely. Consider how little Sakura came up in the other two arcs, how litle she mattered when Shirou made the deicison to leave town with Rin and now times that tenfold and you've got an idea of how little Sakura is going to mean to Shirou from now on. Imagine if Shirou is already embroiled in another conlifct (as only Shirou could be) and then finds out that Sakura's dead. Do you think he's going to be any position to leave that conflict and get the next plane to Fukuyu? I don't think so. If Shirou plans to become a superhero then unless he has Facebook I don't see him keeping a significant contact with Sakura.

What, so she comes over every fucking day for a year, he sees her as "family" and he's just going to fucking forget about her like that? And not even mourn her fucking death?

You might think Shirou is an uncaring asshole, but I sure as hell don't.

[Haak]

I'm going to put my debate with Cherry Lover under spoiler tags. Anyone who doesn't wish to see or has a problem with it for whatever strange reason, doesn't have to look anymore. And in the future, if anyone wants to give me a neg rep then please make sure you state a reason, otherwise I won't know what it is I'm doing wrong. ;)


Because she takes the only person that gives Sakura's life any meaning whatsoever and runs off to London with him, without even checking up on Sakura's situation at all.

How does she know Shirou is the only person who gives her any meaning in her life? Because she knows that Sakura is unhappy unless she's around Shirou?


But how is it "not a factor"?

I said "if", didn't I? I wanted to clairify your posiiton. Let me repeat: If the fact that Sakura is unhappy unless she's around Shirou is not a factor anymore, then would you conceed that she can do anything she likes?


Except no, because he's dead (or being nicer) and she's still unhappy.

He's not dead in the UBW end which is what we're talking about. How does she know that she's still unhappy? More specifically: How do you know she knows that?


Then she didn't fucking look closely enough, did she...?


This is question begging, because you're assuming in your premise here that it is reasonable for Rin to find out about Sakura's position. This what I'm trying to get you to prove first. You can't use it as a premise.

There is no possible way for you to know that. It happened off screen. It's more than possible that she looked as closely as were within her bounds and still couldn't find anything. That is a possibility. There's absolutely nothing logically impossible about that.


How the hell is that "reasonable"? Shirou doesn't even know that she's sad, because she's always happy around him, and that in itself should only throw up more problems, unless Rin decides to be a selfish uncaring bitch and shit all over her own fucking sister without a second thought.

Again, Rin isn't going to know this, nor should she be expected to. She might think Shirou is simply someone who knows Sakura better than anyone.


They mean a hell of a lot less than Sakura does.

My point was that they don't, and I explained why. Please don't do that.


He could have at least tried, and he would certainly blame himself ofr not noticing.

I don't see how he could've tried or reasonably blame himself for not noticing. But even so he thinks like that about everything. The whole reason he wants to be superhero is because he actually feels guilt for being the only survivor.


In what way is someone who he sees as family dying without him even noticing that something was wrong and at least trying to help her the same as a bunch of orphans dying?

Because like I said, they were more than a bunch of orphans.


Bullshit.

Shirou would not have just forgotten about it, he's too caring for that, and he sure as hell isn't going to overlook the fact that a fucking girl who he knows was tortured to death under his fucking nose...

He didn't forget about the orphans either. And the fact that it all happened under his nose will be a big blow to him. But that still won't change anything.


What, so she comes over every fucking day for a year, he sees her as "family" and he's just going to fucking forget about her like that? And not even mourn her fucking death?

You might think Shirou is an uncaring asshole, but I sure as hell don't.

I never said he would forget about her. Nor did I say he wouldn't mourn her death. I said that it would be difficult for Shirou to continuely see Sakura as family when she's longer a part of his life, especially if it's for a very long time.

[Jaden]

Magi are inhumane in many ways. The lives of their ancestors ride in their magic crests, that ambition and pride is their highest priority. Rin lost her guidance quite early and had a good environment, so she grew up to be more normal. But even normal people don't love their relatives unconditionally. Rin and Sakura had hardly spoken for like ten years.

In HF they bump into each other in the war and open their hearts to one another, then regain their relationship. In the other stories they don't, and continue to be distant. I don't think there is anything strange with that. Certainly HF is the happier ending to the main human characters, but I don't find the other endings to be unreasonable or out of character.

[Cherry_Lover]

How does she know Shirou is the only person who gives her any meaning in her life? Because she knows that Sakura is unhappy unless she's around Shirou?

Yes, exactly.

Rin knows Sakura is always sad, and she knows how important Shirou is to her because, when she saved Shirou in the beginning of FSN, her first thought was of Sakura, and how sad she would be. Given that, how is it remotely reasonable for her to just take Shirou off to London and not even think of what it might do to Sakura?

I said "if", didn't I? I wanted to clairify your posiiton. Let me repeat: If the fact that Sakura is unhappy unless she's around Shirou is not a factor anymore, then would you conceed that she can do anything she likes?

But it's not "not a factor", so I don't see the point of the question....

Rin has a right to be with the guy she loves, but that doesn't mean she should just abandon her little sister like you seem to be advocating.

He's not dead in the UBW end which is what we're talking about. How does she know that she's still unhappy? More specifically: How do you know she knows that?

The fact that Sakura never smiles except when Sakura is around.

This is question begging, because you're assuming in your premise here that it is reasonable for Rin to find out about Sakura's position. This what I'm trying to get you to prove first. You can't use it as a premise.

Sakura is being constantly abused by Shinji, and is permanently unhappy. That alone should be enough evidence for her to look more closely into her family life. As, indeed, is the very fact that she was adopted at all.

Passing a crest onto someone who isn't a member of your family is hard, and likely to be agonisingly painful, so why did the Matou family adopt her in the first place? Hell, even her fucking hair has changed colour, why the fuck did that not arouse suspicion?

There is no possible way for you to know that. It happened off screen. It's more than possible that she looked as closely as were within her bounds and still couldn't find anything. That is a possibility. There's absolutely nothing logically impossible about that.

Only because her "bounds" are far too restrictive, due to her father's idiocy. Sakura is her fucking sister and, as she herself admits in HF, the non-interference pact between their families was totally and utterly destroyed the moment Tokiomi gave Zouken his own daughter to revive the family. IF that's not "interfering", I don't know what is.

Again, Rin isn't going to know this, nor should she be expected to. She might think Shirou is simply someone who knows Sakura better than anyone.

She knows that Sakura is never happy, and she'll quickly enough realise that she is happy when Shirou is around once she gets to know him. That demonstrates quite conclusively that there is something seriously wrong.

My point was that they don't, and I explained why. Please don't do that.

And my point is that they do, and I explained why. To claim that a bunch of orphans who he never even met mean as much to him as a girl who he sees as family is utterly ludicrous.

I don't see how he could've tried or reasonably blame himself for not noticing.

Because she was being fucking tortured under his fucking nose. Whether or not he could really have been expected to find out, there's no way in hell he would not blame himself. Even if he were a normal person he would blame himself for that.

But even so he thinks like that about everything. The whole reason he wants to be superhero is because he actually feels guilt for being the only survivor.

And Sakura would be about 50 times worse, because he knows her personally and had plenty of chances to help her if he'd bothered to look into it more thoroughly. True, he had no reason to do so, but I very much doubt he'll see it that way.

Because like I said, they were more than a bunch of orphans.

They still don't come even fucking close to Sakura.

He didn't forget about the orphans either. And the fact that it all happened under his nose will be a big blow to him. But that still won't change anything.

It will make Shirou feel like a total failure. More so than the orphans did, because he could not really do anything to help them (other than wish on the Grail, which was a bad idea). He made a choice not to change things to save them (and that only applies in Fate anyway), whereas with Sakura it was simply that he did not notice that anything was wrong.

I never said he would forget about her. Nor did I say he wouldn't mourn her death.

That's what it sounded like....

I said that it would be difficult for Shirou to continuely see Sakura as family when she's longer a part of his life, especially if it's for a very long time.

I disagree with this. If you think of someone as "family", then you don't suddenly stop caring about them if you don't see them for a while. Plenty of people move away from their families, and even barely see them for years on end, but they still think of them as family, and still care deeply for them. I don't see Shirou losing that feeling for Sakura easily, especially when he finds out what she's been through.

If she died, he would be utterly devestated, and IMO it would drive him ever closer to becoming Archer. After all, what better indication do you need that you can't save everyone than someone close to you dying because you were too busy fighting elsewhere to save those you love?

Magi are inhumane in many ways. The lives of their ancestors ride in their magic crests, that ambition and pride is their highest priority.

Magi are, by and large, total assholes. Rin and Sakura are not, because they're fundamentally decent people, but if Rin decides to go down that "asshole" route then honestly I don't want her to have a "happy ending", especially not at Sakura's expense.

Rin lost her guidance quite early and had a good environment, so she grew up to be more normal.

Erm, what?

Since when did Rin have a "good environment"?

But even normal people don't love their relatives unconditionally. Rin and Sakura had hardly spoken for like ten years.

Which is Rin's fucking fault, along with her idiot father. Sakura couldn't seek her out, because Zouken explicitly forbade it, but there's no reason Rin could not other than caring more about some fucking 400-year-old pact that they'd already broken anyway.

In HF they bump into each other in the war and open their hearts to one another, then regain their relationship. In the other stories they don't, and continue to be distant. I don't think there is anything strange with that. Certainly HF is the happier ending to the main human characters, but I don't find the other endings to be unreasonable or out of character.

Because they clearly still care about each other. The way Rin acts towards Sakura in Fate and UBW makes that quite clear. In the short-term, she may not overcome her father's idiocy enough to actually reconcile with her sister, but I don't see Rin just forgetting about her entirely.

[Haak]

Yes, exactly.

Rin knows Sakura is always sad, and she knows how important Shirou is to her because, when she saved Shirou in the beginning of FSN, her first thought was of Sakura, and how sad she would be. Given that, how is it remotely reasonable for her to just take Shirou off to London and not even think of what it might do to Sakura?

It took a while and I had to ask twice but thanks for clarifying. Now hopefully I can clarifiy the next one


But it's not "not a factor",
so I don't see the point of the question....

Rin has a right to be with the guy she loves, but that doesn't mean she should just abandon her little sister like you seem to be advocating.

Okay then, just imagine that it's no longer an issue. Just imagine it. Now, if somehow, in some possible way, there was a perfectly acceptable explanation to explain why Rin took off with Shirou knowing what Shirou means to Sakura, would you then say that's totally okay?


The fact that Sakura never smiles except when Sakura is around.


...what? Okay, I'm sure you meant "when Shirou is around" but that still doesn't make any sense. Bear in mind this the UBW True End. The Holy Grail War is over. We don't actually see Sakura and only get one line about how Shinji is possibly being nicer to Sakura. So exactly do you know that Sakura is still unhappy and never smiles unless she's around Shirou?


Sakura is being constantly abused by Shinji, and is permanently unhappy. That alone should be enough evidence for her to look more closely into her family life. As, indeed, is the very fact that she was adopted at all.

Passing a crest onto someone who isn't a member of your family is hard, and likely to be agonisingly painful, so why did the Matou family adopt her in the first place? Hell, even her fucking hair has changed colour, why the fuck did that not arouse suspicion?

Rin was just a child when Sakura left so she probably doesn't remember what her hair color was like. I doubt she'd have a photo either. As for her family life it's more than possible that she asked questions about that and still come up short. After all, even Shirou didn't think to take it any further. As for why she doesn't ask why the Matou family adopted Sakura, I'm pretty sure it's a rule amound magi and a common practice that any other children besides the heir are usually sent somewhere else so there's no comeptition. And Rin believed that the Matou family were no longer a magi family as evidenced by her surprise at finding out Shinji is competing in the Holy Grail War.


Only because her "bounds" are far too restrictive, due to her father's idiocy. Sakura is her fucking sister and, as she herself admits in HF, the non-interference pact between their families was totally and utterly destroyed the moment Tokiomi gave Zouken his own daughter to revive the family. IF that's not "interfering", I don't know what is.

The only reason your saying her bounds are too restrictive is because she's her sister. I mentioned several times that she can consider such things relative if she wants to and clearly chose to do so in the end of every route besides HF.


She knows that Sakura is never happy, and she'll quickly enough realise that she is happy when Shirou is around once she gets to know him. That demonstrates quite conclusively that there is something seriously wrong.

What? How does that demonstrate that Shirou's actions can't be an indicator of what is reasonable for Rin? Once more, bear in mind that Rin has seen very little of Shirou and Sakura's interactions.


And my point is that they do, and I explained why. To claim that a bunch of orphans who he never even met mean as much to him as a girl who he sees as family is utterly ludicrous.

WJJ3ZqevWrY


Because she was being fucking tortured under his fucking nose. Whether or not he could really have been expected to find out, there's no way in hell he would not blame himself. Even if he were a normal person he would blame himself for that.

Same for the orphans


And Sakura would be about 50 times worse, because he knows her personally and had plenty of chances to help her if he'd bothered to look into it more thoroughly. True, he had no reason to do so, but I very much doubt he'll see it that way.

Exactly. Because as i said he always looks at it that way.


They still don't come even fucking close to Sakura.

They do.


It will make Shirou feel like a total failure. More so than the orphans did, because he could not really do anything to help them (other than wish on the Grail, which was a bad idea). He made a choice not to change things to save them (and that only applies in Fate anyway), whereas with Sakura it was simply that he did not notice that anything was wrong.

Same for Sakura



That's what it sounded like....

Okay now I'm starting to get angry. It wasn't. I made a concerted effort not to make it sound like that. Sorry but this time I'm not having it. You were trying to interpretate everything I said in the worst way possible for Sakura as you always do...


I disagree with this. If you think of someone as "family", then you don't suddenly stop caring about them if you don't see them for a while. Plenty of people move away from their families, and even barely see them for years on end, but they still think of them as family, and still care deeply for them. I don't see Shirou losing that feeling for Sakura easily, especially when he finds out what she's been through.

...and still doing even after I just told you...

*Sigh* I never said he would lose that feeling and I never said he would suddenly stop caring about her. And no that's not what it sounded like.


If she died, he would be utterly devestated, and IMO it would drive him ever closer to becoming Archer. After all, what better indication do you need that you can't save everyone than someone close to you dying because you were too busy fighting elsewhere to save those you love?

He would be utterly devastated yes. He would mourn her loss, yes. But only for a person who is no longer a part of his life. Unfortunately it would not be comparable to losing those he loves more and who are a part of his life. Sakura doesn't have to still be family for him to be devastated when she dies but can acknowledge her as someone who was once a part of her family. He would move on. She can still be a part of his family if they both make an effort to keep in contact. But as I pointed out that would be incredibly difficult for Shirou who is likely to be embroiled in more conflicts in his effort to dedicate his life in becoming a superhero.

And no it wouldn't drive him to become Archer. He already saw Ilya's death in front of his own eyes. And yes that is just as bad. Ilya might not have meant as much to Shirou but she was right there and he saw her heart literally pulled of her. Compare that to a once family member that simply dies in what he can only assume to be an unfortunate accident or whatever excuse Shinji or Zoken gives him

[Reckoner]

Mandatory F/S N fagging for this song. I might even like it more than Emiya.

ji03z81ebyg&feature=related

I'm kind of skeptical of Kaijura's abilities to bring anything like this to the table in her OST for fate/zero.

[LostHanyou]

^
Hikari to Yami is the real badass fight theme of the series. But really, the FSN ost had some amazing soundtrack. Not expecting f/z to be as memorable, honestly.

[DragoZERO]

^
Hikari to Yami is the real badass fight theme of the series. But really, the FSN ost had some amazing soundtrack. Not expecting f/z to be as memorable, honestly.
It really did. Somehow the composer went under the radar. I think it's Haga Keita, right??

[Auria]

It really did. Somehow the composer went under the radar. I think it's Haga Keita, right??

Yeah, it's Haga Keita. Don't know anything else he did. Of course his music in F/SN was memorable (though I'm not really that fond of the song you posted above somehow) but since we're dealing with a totally different medium and a totally different style here I doubt we can expect anything in that direction. But we should give the anime-music time and scenes to prove itself, since we often remember the best soundtracks with the best scenes along them (make the good scenes the soundtrack good? Or the good soundtrack the scenes? Or both? Or whatever? XDDD). But I think there is a high probability Kajiura won't do an Emiya remix, I don'
t remember her doing something like this before though it could be possible here since a lot of fans would request it and there was a scene it went along really well in the Sound Drama.

Sorry for this lengthy answer, if you wish to discuss this issue further let's move to the OST thread.

[.:Jason:.]

So, can someone explain the Lesser and Greater Grastils? I've looked at the wiki but I'm still lost about it.

[TwilightsCall]

From what I understand from reading the original VN...

The Greater Grail is the actual main source of the Grail wars. It collects mana from the surrounding area over time in order to facilitate the grail war, a process that generally takes 60 years to complete. The primary function of the Great Grail and the purpose for the grail wars in the first place is to open a pathway to the Root. If I recall correctly, the Great Grail is also what summons the servants and selects the masters. In essence, almost everything in the war is done by the great grail.

The Lesser Grail is created seperately for each war. When they speak of the 'vessel' for the grail, they generally are speaking of the Lesser Grail, ie Illya in the fifth war and so on. The purpose of the Lesser Grail is to collect the spirits of the fallen Servants and hold them until the end of the grail war. Once it has collected 6 Servants (or possibly just enough energy) and once enough time passes, the Lesser Grail activates to open a pathway to the Greater Grail in order to provide the mana to grant the prize to the winner.

Since the Greater Grail was corrupted, whenever the Lesser Grail opened the pathway to the Greater Grail it would start pouring out the corrupted energy (which materialized as the black mud). In most routes and in Fate Zero, the heroes attempt to solve the problem by destroying the Lesser Grail, which while closing the connection to the Great Grail, doesn't really solve the problem of the corruption.

In Heaven's Feel Illya closes the gate to the Great Grail which stops the corruption from leaking out as well. The Cavern then caves in due to the battle overtop of it at the end of the story destroying the Greater Grail. Whether the cave-in was augmented by Kiritsugu's efforts, I suppose we'll have to ask Nasu :x


Also keep in mind I'm recalling all this purely from memory, so I could be wrong on some of the finer details :x

[cecil]

Wow... just wow.
I cant believe you guys delete alumnox post. Well since the mod says we ask that in the don't know what other thread can you please please alumnox reupload the information. I asked his insight in the matter because I couldn't understood the DAMN WIKI and to this point its the best one answering but hey... who cares right ?
Thanks for "answering" my question about the church but its pretty much what I already read . How exactly they don't care for something that one way or another can destroy the world.

[.:Jason:.]

So if I'm getting this correct, the Lesser Grail is made separately for each war. And when it's destroyed/purified that closes off the threat of the Greater Grail. So what happens when Waver disables and later dismantels the Greater Grail? Is the curruption released into the world or does it just go away? What exactly happens to it?

[alumnox]

Wow... just wow.
I cant believe you guys delete alumnox post. Well since the mod says we ask that in the don't know what other thread can you please please alumnox reupload the information. I asked his insight in the matter because I couldn't understood the DAMN WIKI and to this point its the best one answering but hey... who cares right ?
Thanks for "answering" my question about the church but its pretty much what I already read . How exactly they don't care for something that one way or another can destroy the world.

Lol no need to jump from a building. Just ask the question where the mod suggested and Ill answer it the best I can.

The church thing is really interesting but I'm afraid I don't have permission to explain things anymore beyond superficial answers so what I can tell you is that for the fateverse page 265 from the complete materials collection. The church although they care for lives is not really in charge of protecting or saving them their job is to protect the souls but not the people or their bodies who are just vessels.

There are very good "dots" connecting the cease of hostilities between the church and the magic association, the Tohsaka family and its embroilment with them, when how and why it was formed, the Assembly of the Eighth Sacrament, the burial agency and a long etc. Look for that information for yourself (sorry) and that pretty much will let you understand why the church works as an arbitrary.
So if I'm getting this correct, the Lesser Grail is made separately for each war. And when it's destroyed/purified that closes off the threat of the Greater Grail. So what happens when Waver disables and later dismantels the Greater Grail? Is the curruption released into the world or does it just go away? What exactly happens to it?

Avenger comes forth to the fate reality from the swirl of root using energy from the origin to manifest itself (Caren Ortensia's - fate hollow ataraxia and Dead Apostles extra material the section of the corruption of alaya) so you can do whatever you want to the system Avenger will remain in it because of his special class skill as long as its not purified from it or he cast off the skill.

Edit..

Pure speculation: Even when he is nothing else that just disembody energy I think its still a paradox so Alaya will hinder it at some point (what she does in my opinion in hollow ataraxia) to eventually remove him.
http://i42.servimg.com/u/f42/15/92/66/98/th/357_fa10.jpg (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=279&u=15926698)

[Xellos-_^]

The Cavern then caves in due to the battle overtop of it at the end of the story destroying the Greater Grail. Whether the cave-in was augmented by Kiritsugu's efforts, I suppose we'll have to ask Nasu :x



Not quite and Nasu already answer this questions. if you want you can ask in the really really spoiling thread and i can answer it.

spoilers here
weaver survive the 4th grail war and became a full professor in the clock-tower. He dismantle the grail system after the 5th war so there will not be another grail war. Weaver is Rin's professor in clock-tower.

[Aqua Knight]

When did Shirou use Rho Aias in HF?

[Kanon]

He used it in his fight against Saber alter, IIRC.

[Haak]

When did Shirou use Rho Aias in HF?

Against Alter Saber when she was fighting Rider

[edit]

Ninja'd

[Altima of the Gates]

So if I'm getting this correct, the Lesser Grail is made separately for each war. And when it's destroyed/purified that closes off the threat of the Greater Grail. So what happens when Waver disables and later dismantels the Greater Grail? Is the curruption released into the world or does it just go away? What exactly happens to it?

As long as the gate isn't opened, AM can't come out from the other side. Dismantling the system and destroying the giant magic circle in the cavern under Ryuudo Temple will end his link to this plane for good.

Why it came out through Sakura and why Kotomine was able to use it, was because the Gate to the other side was opened. It can't be purified because it's source is on the other side, so what you need to do is to close the gate (the link to this world) to end the threat or destroy the magic circle either before or after the gate is opened.

[DragoZERO]

He used it in his fight against Saber alter, IIRC.
Which is one of the things that made HF so bad ass. Shirou pulled out everything.

If only Nasu wasn't such a troll and made us kill Saber (of course I tried to save her) then we would have had an excellent canon ending.

[Kuroi Hadou]

If only Nasu wasn't such a troll and made us kill Saber (of course I tried to save her) then we would have had an excellent canon ending.

If Nasu wasn't such a troll we wouldn't have an HF route at all. :heh:

[DragoZERO]

If Nasu wasn't such a troll we wouldn't have an HF route at all. :heh:
Easy man... you'll upset the fanatics. :D

[ProfileOF]

Happy ending?
Go to play Fate / Hollow Ataraxia...

[Shadow5YA]

Which is one of the things that made HF so bad ass. Shirou pulled out everything.

If only Nasu wasn't such a troll and made us kill Saber (of course I tried to save her) then we would have had an excellent canon ending.

Technically Shirou pulled Rho Aias in the UBW route as well. He used it against Gilgamesh but used his body to project it instead of his hand.

The only cool things HF has over UBW is Nine Lives Blade Works and that cool trick he did in the sparks liner high bad end.

[Aqua Knight]

Don't forget about his fist fight with Kotomine.

[Haak]

Technically Shirou pulled Rho Aias in the UBW route as well. He used it against Gilgamesh but used his body to project it instead of his hand.

Actually that was Archer. Shirou just didn't realise. But he was able to bring out his Reality Marble which he didn't manage to do in HF.

[Klashikari]

There is no way for Shirou to create Rho Aias in UBW (which made the whole deal in UBW movie even more silly in fact) because he -never- witnessed that shield at all, and never could get Archer's experience, unlike in HF.

This points reminds me of how UBW was way too convenient with plot hole regarding Archer's "existence".

[whatbob1]

According to the CM3 (http://completematerial.pbworks.com/w/page/40075809/Unsorted%20Translation%20%28arai%29)

Q: In the end of the Rin route, was it Shirou that projected Rho Aias in the Shirou vs Gilgamesh fight? Or was it Archer? In Fate/side material, it's said that it was projection magic from Archer, but in the story, there was the depiction of Shirou "pulling the shield from the hill". Does this mean that this switched to Archer's scene?
A: This has been easy to misunderstand, but the part about Archer supporting Shirou was the time before Shirou pulled out Rho Aias, before Shirou came to his realization.
After Shirou's monologue about him being surprised that he was still alive after taking Gil's attack, "If I survived, there must have been a reason why I survived. But　that was simply something I didn't have any control over."
That was the "Rho Aias" that Archer made to help Shirou in a way that wouldn't let Gilgamesh know there was someone else waiting to ambush him.

Archer used Rho Aias when Gilgamesh used Ea on Shirou.

Shirou used Rho Aias when he was doing the UBW chant. As for how Shirou even knew about Rho Aias, maybe he saw it in Archer's UBW :heh:

[DragoZERO]

He knew about Rho Aias the same way he knew about his unique UBW chant and how to create his Reality Marble.

What way? You'll have to ask someone else. :D

[alumnox]

Zero takes place in the 90s and Stay Night in the early 2000s, right? Do we have exact years for each? Trying to figure it out for fanfic/roleplay purposes and info on what year each takes place in would be extremely helpful.
We don't have set dates, I believe. We just know that FSN takes place in the early 2000's and Zero is exactly 10 years before that.
As far as I remember 1994 (4th war) and 2004 (5th war). But I don't think that was ever officially stated in the works, but Fate/Stay Night was released in 2004 that's why it's considered to occur this year I believe. 1994 also falls into the Clinton Era, but I guess without official confirmation you could always make it +/- a few years.
Maybe someone else stumpled upon exact information on this?
I don't suppose someone could provide information where to find that?

Ill resume as much as possible to the points relevant only for the fateverse and nothing else.

Most of it comes from Tsukihime notes booklets, a little more from complete material and character material and some extra are not canon but fair calculations with information given from other characters, other games or their interaction during a certain time (the not canon ones are marked *****).

Year - Event
CAREFUL THERE ARE SOME SPOILERS FROM FATE ZERO AS WELL AS FSN AND HOLLOW ATARAXIA.
2600 BCE - Reign of Gilgamesh
2000ca BCE - Age of the gods
2000ca BCE - Beginning of the Elder Title (the oldest DA Ancestors)
Around 2000ca BCE - Landing of Type Mercury ****
1000 BCE - Origins of Zoroaster/Avesta
356-323 BCE - Birth and death of Iskandar
1000 - Einzbern quest to regain the Heaven's Feel begins
1500 - Machiri quest for a miracle begins
1800 - Tohsaka Nagato (a hidden Christian) meets Zelretch
1800 - Machiri wash ashore Japan
1800 - Beginning of Heaven's Feel ritual
1870 - Heaven's Feel 2
1910 - Birth of Kotomine Risei
1930 - Heaven's Feel 3
1965 - Emiya Kiritsugu is born
1967 - Kotomine Kirei is born
1972 - Touko is born
1975 - Waver Velvet is born
1973 - Takeuchi Takashi is born
1973 - Nasu Kinoko is born
1981-1982 - Bazett Fraga McRemitz is born ***
1981 - Kotomine Kirei graduates from the Manresa St. Ignatius at the top of his class (skips two grades).
1983 - Matou Kariya severs ties with the Matou family
1985 - Tohsaka Tokiomi proposes to Zenjou Aoi.
1985 - Emiya Kiritsugu retires.
1985 - Emiya Kiritsugu is adopted into the Einzbern line
1986 - Illyasviel von Einzbern is born ****
1986-1987 - Tohsaka Rin, Matou Shinji, Emiya Shirou are born
1987-1988 - Tohsaka Sakura is born
1989 - Kotomine Kirei is married to the woman who becomes Caren Hortensia's mother
1990 - Caren Hortensia is born. ****
1990 - Touko is kicked out of the city
1991 - Kotomine Kirei's wife dies. Days later, Command Spell marks appear on him. Risei and Tokiomi arrange for Kirei's transfer from the Sacred Church into the Association and from then on, Kirei trains under Tokiomi.
1993 - Sakura is handed over to the Matou family. Matou Kariya returns to the Matou family to become a Master in the upcoming war, on the condition that Sakura is returned to her family.
1994 - Rin and Aoi move out of Fuyuki for the duration of the coming war (Aoi's parents' home)
1994 - Heaven's Feel 4 (confirmed deaths of Kayneth Archibald El-Melloi, Kotomine Risei, Tohsaka Tokiomi, and Irisviel von Einzbern during the 4th ritual)
1994 - Shirou is adopted by Kiritsugu
1996 - Bazett is invited into the Association. Sometime between 1996 and 1998 she chooses to become a sealer, in other words a magus dedicated to combat, which is a rarity given her age at the time, as combat is the one thing she's talented at. ****
1998 - Bazett, the lone survivor of an Association sealing mission, meets Kotomine, the lone survivor of an Executor force. Normally, Executors aren't permitted to cooperate with Association magi without the permission of the pope or a bishop and are supposed to destroy the body and all the materials of the one they're terminating (which is why sealing agents and Executors have to confront each other even when facing a mutual enemy), but the two of them cooperate in killing the enemy magus on the condition that Kotomine finishes his job and kills the magus; Bazett gets to have the rest. After that, the two of them meet each other several times by coincidence on other missions.
1998 - Mikiya is mesmerized by Touko's doll. He quits college and decides to work for her. (important matter for the HF route ending)
1999 - Emiya Kiritsugu dies
2002 - Kuzuki arrives in Fuyuki (first and only error in the canon crono time frame because Kuzuki entry differs in hollow ataraxia info)
2004 - Heaven's Feel 5
2004 - hollow ataraxia (Nasu says later there's no conflict in the canon appearance of Kuzuki since HA happens in an alternate reality)
3000 - Crimson moon
XXXX - Earth dies. Aristotles invade. (I'm not kidding this is actually the end for the world in the type moon universe)

[Altima of the Gates]

Easy man... you'll upset the fanatics. :D


Not really. Just because I'm a Sakura fan, doesn't mean I like all that happened in HF. It just happened to also have good romantic development as well, imo, and a lot of rich character development amongst the clusterfuck.

Honestly, the whole route was a big troll. The smartest people of the group ran around like chickens with their heads cut off when they had the perfect way to stop what was going on with Sakura. But they kick around the possessed person the whole time, accelerating the corruption (Ilya knew about Sakura and what was possessing her pretty much from the beginning, and had a couple ways to stop it.

So many things one can figure out that were wrong here, besides the misplaced "What the Hell Hero" people give Shirou, which should be doled out for almost everyone else instead. The boy is the least informed here, Rin, with her wealth of genius didn't even think to question Archer when he got all funny about the shadow.

Not only did the characters allow the villains to troll them(and Kotomine and Zouken trolled them good, I'll say), they didn't behave as people who are cooperating should. Saber had a good chance to live if Ilya was more forthcoming with info. Fate has a lot of plot holes and headscratchers like these.

You'd be surprised at how screwed up things can get when people don't communicate or have their heads up their butts.

[DragoZERO]

I do remember Illya and Rin keeping him in the dark but I don't think I picked up on the other stuff. I think I was so filled with rage that it blinded me a little, :heh:

[ChronoReverse]

He knew about Rho Aias the same way he knew about his unique UBW chant and how to create his Reality Marble.

What way? You'll have to ask someone else. :D

He just SAW Rho Aias in front of him (projected by Archer). That alone is already sufficient for him to replicate it afterwards (it's the nature of his magic after all) even before the whole "osmosis of knowledge from Archer" thing going on.


Just to doubly clarify, there were TWO Rho Aias's projected in that scene. The first, unseen by us, was projected by Archer and saved him from Ea (lite). The second is Shirou's own which absorbed the hail of GoB NP's while he casted UBW.

[Kallen4life]

Rho Aias is strong enough to withstand Ea ?

I thought only Avalon could

[kaizer63]

Rho Aias is strong enough to withstand Ea ?

I thought only Avalon could

Rho Aias is conceptually the shield that will withstand any "arrow." So as long as you don't run up and slash/stab at it it will put up a good fight. Of course, unlike Avalon there appears to be some additional mana requirement (I think I remember Archer having to put more prana into it to sustain it against Gae Bolg). And Rho Aias was able to negate a spear that reverses causality so that it will always hit its target. Ea lite is, in a battle of concepts, no where near that powerful.

But it would totally fold under even a halfway charged Ea, no doubt.

[Kallen4life]

ah ok then, nothing wrong with that

I haven't actually played UBW, only saw the movie (yeah, I know :() and in the movie it kinda made sense to me that Gil lost because he was cocky and didn't think about using Ea until it was too late (I assume a full-powered Ea-blast is practically an I-win button and would tear through UBW, Shirou & Archer like knife through butter .. in fact - through everything except Avalon ? only talking Servants), but in the game it seems he used a weaker blast .. why was it weaker btw ? not enough time to fully charge ?

[ChronoReverse]

ah ok then, nothing wrong with that

I haven't actually played UBW, only saw the movie (yeah, I know :() and in the movie it kinda made sense to me that Gil lost because he was cocky and didn't think about using Ea until it was too late (I assume a full-powered Ea-blast is practically an I-win button and would tear through UBW, Shirou & Archer like knife through butter .. in fact - through everything except Avalon ? only talking Servants), but in the game it seems he used a weaker blast .. why was it weaker btw ? not enough time to fully charge ?

The movie wasn't wrong about that.

It's just that earlier, before Shirou understood his reality marble, Gil got tired of fooling around so much and decided to show Shirou a barely charged Ea to kill him. This was when Archer used Rho Aias to give Shirou one more chance to figure out UBW.

Shirou then taunts Gil to use Ea again which made Gil go "lol no" and use GoB instead. Shirou blocks this while casting UBW with his own Rho Aias and the rest the movie is a good enough explanation for.

[Cherry_Lover]

The church thing is really interesting but I'm afraid I don't have permission to explain things anymore beyond superficial answers so what I can tell you is that for the fateverse page 265 from the complete materials collection. The church although they care for lives is not really in charge of protecting or saving them their job is to protect the souls but not the people or their bodies who are just vessels.

Wait, what? What are you not allowed to answer?

There are very good "dots" connecting the cease of hostilities between the church and the magic association, the Tohsaka family and its embroilment with them, when how and why it was formed, the Assembly of the Eighth Sacrament, the burial agency and a long etc. Look for that information for yourself (sorry) and that pretty much will let you understand why the church works as an arbitrary.

How the hell is he supposed to look for information for himself when it's in Japanese? That's completely ludicrous.

If only Nasu wasn't such a troll and made us kill Saber (of course I tried to save her) then we would have had an excellent canon ending.

Well, yeah, I think that was kind-of the point. Although, I could have easily seen there being a "HF Good" ending where Saber somehow survived....

Easy man... you'll upset the fanatics. :D

Well, having HF as the last route and then ignoring Sakura's situation in the first two is pretty trollish....

I do remember Illya and Rin keeping him in the dark but I don't think I picked up on the other stuff. I think I was so filled with rage that it blinded me a little, :heh:

Well, it was certainly a mess. But, then, Nasu had to make it that way in order that he get a suitably dramatic story. Ilya finding a way to save Sakura and kill Zouken on day 9 wouldn't have made for a particularly interesting route....

[bumbayker]

I just finished the FSN VN. Though I enjoyed the game I don't understand why Sakura's dilemma was completely ignored in the Fate and UBW routes. So does that mean her fate is sealed as Zouken's puppet or worse be consumed by the crest worm inside her? It's kinda sad knowing after completing Saber's and Rin's routes that Sakura has nothing except in her true ending. I agree that HF had some parts that were trollish though it was probably my favorite for being the darkest. I just wish Type-Moon addressed each heroine in each route though more on the main girl of their designated route. It ends up that each route is almost a completely different story but with just the same premise.

I also don't understand the end of the "Last Episode" after completing all routes. Did Saber return or did Shirou go to her? It seems contradicting to ending of Saber's route.

[ChronoReverse]

Saber's final destination as King Arthur is Avalon. Shirou joins her in the end and they're happy together forever, daaww~

[Haak]

I just finished the FSN VN. Though I enjoyed the game I don't understand why Sakura's dilemma was completely ignored in the Fate and UBW routes. So does that mean her fate is sealed as Zouken's puppet or worse be consumed by the crest worm inside her?

It's one those "left purposely ambiguous to troll the readers" things. We are left to interpret her absence however we like. I'd in all likely hood she probably has had her fate sealed as Zouken's puppet, but I'm an optimist so I'd like to believe she gets rescued eventually (fuck you Nasu).


I also don't understand the end of the "Last Episode" after completing all routes. Did Saber return or did Shirou go to her? It seems contradicting to ending of Saber's route.

The place with the green fields was Avalon: the place where legends say King Arthur goes to after he dies (or about to die). At the start we see UBW and what seems to be Shirou living his last moment in life. There's also a scene where Saber and Merlin talk about how she can possibly see Shirou again and Merlin says that two miracles would have to happen. I'm guessing those two miracles actually happened.

[GDB]

It's one those "left purposely ambiguous to troll the readers" things. We are left to interpret her absence however we like. I'd in all likely hood she probably has had her fate sealed as Zouken's puppet, but I'm an optimist so I'd like to believe she gets rescued eventually (fuck you Nasu).

I'm less of an optimist. We know from side material that there's a "war" or something that occurs when Rin gets the Greater Grail dismantled, which is supposedly far bloodier than the 5th war was. We know from Heaven's Feel that Archer has fought a Shadow before, and was unsure when he first spoke of it whether Shirou had encountered it yet or not. This leads me to believe that Archer fought the Shadow in life, rather than as a Counter Guardian.

So, combine those, and think of who would be the most adamantly against dismantling the Greater Grail? Zouken. So I have this feeling he unleashed Sakura as the Shadow during this Dismantling War, and Shirou/Archer was forced to kill the Shadow without ever knowing or finding out it was Sakura.

[Haak]

Yeah but didn't he end up sacrificing his life and made a deal with Alaya to save a hundred people in front of him? Sakura could've been one of those. :p

(Plus I don't think he was unsure of whether Shirou had encountered the Shadow yet (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=3736260&postcount=3768). In fact I think he's specifically implying that he did fight it as a counter guardian from that "I'm summoned as a servant but I'm to fight it after all" and "You're not a guardian yet so you must not have fought something like that before")

[GDB]

Yeah, looks like I remembered that scene a bit backwards.

[Cherry_Lover]

I just finished the FSN VN. Though I enjoyed the game I don't understand why Sakura's dilemma was completely ignored in the Fate and UBW routes. So does that mean her fate is sealed as Zouken's puppet or worse be consumed by the crest worm inside her? It's kinda sad knowing after completing Saber's and Rin's routes that Sakura has nothing except in her true ending. I agree that HF had some parts that were trollish though it was probably my favorite for being the darkest. I just wish Type-Moon addressed each heroine in each route though more on the main girl of their designated route. It ends up that each route is almost a completely different story but with just the same premise.

Yeah, that's what I didn't like about it, either. Nasu gives absolutely no indication of what happens to Sakura following the first two routes, and when you look back at them after playing HF it's just depressing, especially the UBW endings.

It's one those "left purposely ambiguous to troll the readers" things. We are left to interpret her absence however we like. I'd in all likely hood she probably has had her fate sealed as Zouken's puppet, but I'm an optimist so I'd like to believe she gets rescued eventually (fuck you Nasu).

I'm not so sure about that, actually. Firstly, she is still Rin's sister, and I would hope Rin would not just abandon her (especially post-UBW) and secondly there is supposed to be a war to shut down the Grail ten years later, which Zouken will surely be involved in somehow.

I'm less of an optimist. We know from side material that there's a "war" or something that occurs when Rin gets the Greater Grail dismantled, which is supposedly far bloodier than the 5th war was.

Certainly, but I see Sakura being saved there, not killed. Or, at least, I hope she will be.

We know from Heaven's Feel that Archer has fought a Shadow before, and was unsure when he first spoke of it whether Shirou had encountered it yet or not. This leads me to believe that Archer fought the Shadow in life, rather than as a Counter Guardian.

No, we don't.

Archer says that he has thought "things like that" before, which just means generic threats to the world, not the shadow specifically. Hell, he specifically states that he does not know what it is.

So, combine those, and think of who would be the most adamantly against dismantling the Greater Grail? Zouken. So I have this feeling he unleashed Sakura as the Shadow during this Dismantling War, and Shirou/Archer was forced to kill the Shadow without ever knowing or finding out it was Sakura.

I don't think that's possible, though. Firstly, he can't just turn her into the shadow like that, and secondly you can't kill the shadow without finding out that it's Sakura, because it's not simply her walking around. The shadow goes out feeding, fighting etc. whilst Sakura is shown explicitly to be back at home.

[alumnox]

Wait, what? What are you not allowed to answer?

How the hell is he supposed to look for information for himself when it's in Japanese? That's completely ludicrous.

Im afraid in the other thread I was asked to answer with the minimum details possible regardless the question since they textually said all the information is available elsewhere (don't know myself, I own everything I talk you guys about) and this is not supposed to be a wiki.

And its a shame because people may not be aware that zERO, Fate, crimson moon, ddj and so on are just chapters of a huge history that Nasu built to interconnect all the games they made and all the side histories that exist around them and starts at year 0 and ends in year xxxx with the invasion of Aristotle.

What I told Cecil about the church for example is part of that. The church (at least for Nasu) comes from the contact of the first καθολικός with the origin.

καθολικός (katholikos) - translates as "according to the whole".

Those humans and later the apostles, exist as a response of Alaya that needs to hinder in some way the humans using magic which they are not supposed to be using in it in the first place.

That way the apostles became pretty much like the judges of the people that looks to hinder the balance of the origin (for magus) god (for them).

That gave birth to a "secret" war between church and magic in general.

With time and as the church gained power sections inside of it where created especially to handle matters like magus and in general humans "wrong doing". (like hunting vampires cof cof =P)

The war scaled during the dark ages around 1200 and a full confrontation between the already founded magic association and the church began with total victory for the church.

Nasu never told what exactly the Tohsaka (hidden Christians) did back then but they were involved in the war and they pretty much skyrocket after the war inside both the church and the magus association becoming later one of the 3 well known families with the makiri and the eizenberg.

The church saw great advantage in controlling and monitoring the magus since as they learned during the dark ages its impossible to totally eradicate them.

The ultimate job of the church is to secure the transition of the souls from this realm back to the origin or god and to crush anything that in their judge might prevent that from happening so to the church (in the Nasu universe) the body of a person is nothing else but a container or a vessel as its described in the extra materials and they don't care about it as long as the soul might go back to the origin what ever happens to the life of that person is not their concern.

A funny fact: a divine relic like for example a piece of the cross of Christ or a piece of clothing of a saint its equally powerful (at least in rank) to the weapons of the servants and since the "agents" of the church are capable of disrupting magic, seal and damage souls directly they are actually a fearsome force.

[Cherry_Lover]

Im afraid in the other thread I was asked to answer with the minimum details possible regardless the question since they textually said all the information is available elsewhere (don't know myself, I own everything I talk you guys about) and this is not supposed to be a wiki.

That's utterly ludicrous. How the hell are we supposed to debate things and answer questions if we're forced to refer to documents that are written in Japanese which 99.9% of the people reading the forum won't even own...?

[pikachuwei]

eh whats this last ending thing for the game?

[DragoZERO]

eh whats this last ending thing for the game?
Are you talking about the cop out add on for Saber in Realta Nua?

[pikachuwei]

probably i think =P

[Haak]

Are you talking about the cop out add on for Saber in Realta Nua?

¬_________¬

eh whats this last ending thing for the game?

It's simply called Last Episode. Just type "Realta Nua Last Episode" into youtube or something.

[Linkark07]

I have a question I have been wondering from a long time since I played Unlimited Blade Works. When Shirou says the chant for use his Reality Marble he says: "Waiting for one's arrival". Who is he waiting for? Someone knows?

[Auria]

I have a question I have been wondering from a long time since I played Unlimited Blade Works. When Shirou says the chant for use his Reality Marble he says: "Waiting for one's arrival". Who is he waiting for? Someone knows? I believe that matter is left for interpretations, though I always thought he was reffering to himself. Maybe someone who owns the World Material can give insight if anything more is indicated?

[Vicious108]

I have a question I have been wondering from a long time since I played Unlimited Blade Works. When Shirou says the chant for use his Reality Marble he says: "Waiting for one's arrival". Who is he waiting for? Someone knows?

You might want to read the literal translations of the original Japanese UBW chants here (http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Unlimited_Blade_Works) if you're looking to fully grasp the meaning of it all. The official English ones, as cool as they sound, actually change the meaning of most verses. And in the case of the verse you mentioned in particular, the Japanese version doesn't mention any "Waiting for one's arrival". But make what you will of it. This isn't really a case of someone just "knowing" the answer, since it's, as Auria said, mostly left up to interpretation.

[DragoZERO]

The dub translations are horrible.

It is interesting that the chant is so different. I mean, Archer says it in Engrish but the kanji to English translation is different. Unless I'm misunderstanding something, that is.

[GDB]

The dub translations are horrible.

That they are. You'd think translating English to English wouldn't be hard. To be fair though, even though it's listed as Funimation's dub, it's actually Geneon's.

[Linkark07]

You might want to read the literal translations of the original Japanese UBW chants here (http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Unlimited_Blade_Works) if you're looking to fully grasp the meaning of it all. The official English ones, as cool as they sound, actually change the meaning of most verses. And in the case of the verse you mentioned in particular, the Japanese version doesn't mention any "Waiting for one's arrival". But make what you will of it. This isn't really a case of someone just "knowing" the answer, since it's, as Auria said, mostly left up to interpretation.

Ya, it was completely different than the engrish version Nasu made.

[d-one]

Actually, years ago I heard that TM actually ask a foreigner to create the chant (Nasu only create the Japan ver. chant) but I don't know how it's become like that. I forgot the source since it's been years

[ukulelembo]

Fate/stay night [Realta Nua] PC version will be released as a download!
http://i.imgur.com/ghFpO.jpg
http://www.typemoon.com/information/info.html

[GDB]

Fate/stay night [Realta Nua] PC version will be released as a download!
http://i.imgur.com/ghFpO.jpg
http://www.typemoon.com/information/info.html

You raised my hopes (of an official American release) and dashed them brilliantly. Bravo.

[Last Sinner]

It's one those "left purposely ambiguous to troll the readers" things. We are left to interpret her absence however we like. I'd in all likely hood she probably has had her fate sealed as Zouken's puppet, but I'm an optimist so I'd like to believe she gets rescued eventually (fuck you Nasu).

Well, Nasu generally refers to Heavens Feel True Ending as the 'real route/ending' of FSN. So, in the sense of what 'probably' happened, Heavens Feel is the one you could consider to be the most likely to have actually happened.

In terms of what would have happened to Sakura if Fate or Unlimited Blade Works was the route that happened, the Holy Grail and Avenger were destroyed for good every time. So Zouken's path to immortality would always be cut off. Whether he'd have kept consuming people for a while and kept torturing Sakura in his final days - that's a chilling thought. One point of comfort would be that the crest worm was active mainly during the Grail War, so the absence of its purpose would perhaps keep it dormant permanently since Sakura was not one to actively use magic. I'd think Sakura would eventually be liberated but whether it was inevitability or if Shirou/Rin noticed is another issue. Nasu may leave some things ambiguous and not allow all the main characters to get peace within the one route. But he generally offers hope and redemption - he is referred to as a 'warrior of love' after all. Characters generally have a better chance than those in Urobuchi's works and his tendency to 'send them into the abyss' since he feels that's what endings should be like - Urobuchi's own words. Even Yuuchirou admits it in his comments in the second F/Z novel - 'This is an extremely cruel story with absolutely no salvation.'

But all that said, the idea that no one noticed the hell Sakura went through in the other two routes is somewhat absurd and disheartening. It was obvious in any route that Shinji was abusing Sakura at the very least and that she would do anything to spend minimal time at the Matou household. And the fact Heavens Feel was pretty much passed over in the anime adaptation - even though it was the 'real route' - just makes people who haven't played the game through think that Sakura is an insignificant character, when she's pretty damn important. Fate/Zero touches upon the hell she's destined for, but those unfamiliar with FSN don't seem to appreciate the significance or care much. Also concerned that Kotomine won't get the treatment he deserves. He was one damn intriguing/thought-provoking villain in FSN, particularly Heavens Feel. Not feeling much at all about what happens to him in F/Z.

Frankly I'm relieved I played the game in full before I got that far into Fate/Zero. Heavens Feel makes things much clearer as far as I'm concerned.

[Thess]

Aren't they all supposed to be parallel worlds (Ataraxia being the fourth one?). But from a narrative POV, HF is the "grand finale" of the story. I felt like Fate was the First chapter where it builds suspense, UBW the second one that exposes the conflict further. In comparison, HF brings a resolution. Pretty sure Nasu prefers Sakura as Shirou's love interest, Saber's just stamped as 'main heroine' because she's the most popular (although, not sure if she's popular with Shirou or just with herself. I like Saber a lot more than Sakura as character, but the Shirou/Saber pairing less than Sakura/Shirou).

Ataraxia feels like the Epilogue (resolving the story of the great force behind Fate, not Shirou, but Angra Mainyu).

Prologue is... the Prologue.

[DragoZERO]

You raised my hopes (of an official American release) and dashed them brilliantly. Bravo.Same here, haha.

Not that it'd make a difference since I already bought the PC version, but yeah.

[BladeEntity]

Aren't they all supposed to be parallel worlds (Ataraxia being the fourth one?). But from a narrative POV, HF is the "grand finale" of the story. I felt like Fate was the First chapter where it builds suspense, UBW the second one that exposes the conflict further. In comparison, HF brings a resolution. Pretty sure Nasu prefers Sakura as Shirou's love interest, Saber's just stamped as 'main heroine' because she's the most popular (although, not sure if she's popular with Shirou or just with herself. I like Saber a lot more than Sakura as character, but the Shirou/Saber pairing less than Sakura/Shirou).

Ataraxia feels like the Epilogue (resolving the story of the great force behind Fate, not Shirou, but Angra Mainyu).

Prologue is... the Prologue.

The Irony of F/SN is the idea that a Visual Novel is meant to have seperate routes because well all are equal and not one route is more important the the other, but with the way things were set up, it made the reader go through route after route systematically, and made the last route being HF where the love interest was Sakura sort of like the underdog of F/SN. Naturally people assume that HF is the most canon... therefore Sakura is the best pairing unless of course you are biased for another character.

However it should be nice to note that the sequel, F/HA did not follow any specific ending which implies that all endings are indeed equal and has importance based on the players own preference be it for the route or for the main heroine of the particular route. While the setup was there moving from route to route till the "grand finale", all routes are equally canon hence why its a visual novel, the brilliance of Nasu as a writer I supposed.

I would not say the Sakura is Nasu's prefered heroine more likely the only one who could fit the story that he wanted to tell in HF which was a about a boy who could only protect the people he wants to protect compared to the idealistic view he had in the Fate route. If Sakura was the prefered heroine IMO she would not have been protrayed in such a way that was focused on building sympathy in readers especially through the absence of closure within the first 2 routes, as shown by many people's previous posts.

The focus on sympathy made her less likable compared to Rin and Saber who are, by far more popular as female characters in the Nasu verse. In terms of which couple is generally prefered I assume it will be the latter 2 instead of Sakura who is not liked as much as the other 2. However circumstances made her the heroine of HF and thus because of the setup of the routes the most "canon" perhaps only in appearance.

[Thess]

The Irony of F/SN is the idea that a Visual Novel is meant to have seperate routes because well all are equal and not one route is more important the the other, but with the way things were set up, it made the reader go through route after route systematically, and made the last route being HF where the love interest was Sakura sort of like the underdog of F/SN. Naturally people assume that HF is the most canon... therefore Sakura is the best pairing unless of course you are biased for another character.

I disagree.

I don't think Sakura is the 'underdog' by a mile in the terms of Shirou romance in the Visual Novel, in fact it seems the opposite to me. She's the only girl with who Shirou seems to have an adult relationship with and risks everything for in the ending. We see how they are in an adult relationship later on after two years. Failure of that is... Kiritsugu end. She seems to be his Iri.

And the rest?

His love for Saber was always portrayed as a bittersweet departure (aside of the Realta Nua ending, which is not really included in the original version: aka they are throwing a bone to the fanboys). Something that isn't as much as romance but the validation of their paths that give them peace of mind. It's a beautiful ideal love, but they don't really have a relationship at all.

Rin's relationship with Shirou is basically girlfriend/boyfriend stuff of teenagers. Nothing really big or remotely seemly lasting. Shirou's hardly Rin's ideal lover. She's more than happy to get Saber too when she stays (and who does she jumps to willingly and eagerly sex up in Fate route? Yeah, Saber). This is one of the things I like of Rin, she shouldn't settle down so easily. :heh:

Yes, Rin and Saber got face time in acts (but because Sakura, just like Archer, overdose would steer the plot in other direction. If Bazett wasn't Trollomined, she would have won the 5th War, you know? Then we wouldn't have FSN at all, more like Fate/ POW POW Irish Night. So that lack of spotlight serves a purpose), but as far as romantic heroine? We never see them in an adult relationship like Sakura and Shirou, who had been spending time together for years prior. You can say Rin also got the shaft, she plays the role of sidekick in all the routes, but the Prologue. Even her own which is more "Shirou's route" (according to Tiger Dojo) while Saber and Sakura (in particular Sakura) get the focus on theirs. Saber gets the shaft too, since she never ends up with Shirou in a relationship at all, just in love.

All of them do in a way. Even Bazett who is a protagonist, never gets a H scene.

However it should be nice to note that the sequel, F/HA did not follow any specific ending which implies that all endings are indeed equal and has importance based on the players own preference be it for the route or for the main heroine of the particular route. While the setup was there moving from route to route till the "grand finale", all routes are equally canon hence why its a visual novel, the brilliance of Nasu as a writer I supposed.

It did not follow any route in particular because HA is supposed to be a parallel world (according to Nasu? He referred it as that in an interview about contradictions), same thing with the routes. All is canon, but... it's constructed in such a way (in narrative sense) that follows a structure.

HF is canonically referred as the grand finale that gives an 'answer' to the 'question' proposed in the first two routes ("How should Shirou live?").

Also, the focus on HA is not Shirou, but Avenger, Bazett and Caren. Shirou is only there briefly. He also has zero characterization, so his state of romance isn't very important. Our hero is Angra Mainyu :eyespin:

I would not say the Sakura is Nasu's prefered heroine more likely the only one who could fit the story that he wanted to tell in HF which was a about a boy who could only protect the people he wants to protect compared to the idealistic view he had in the Fate route. If Sakura was the prefered heroine IMO she would not have been protrayed in such a way that was focused on building sympathy in readers especially through the absence of closure within the first 2 routes, as shown by many people's previous posts.

I think that Nasu said that Sakura is Shirou's first pick between the heroines or something like that, in his opinion. Even if Saber is the most popular heroine. He wrote the routes, he separated Saber and Shirou, while he made Sakura and Shirou live in a relationship for two years and counting, so he doesn't need to spell it aloud. His original writing speaks louder than words, right? I like the three pairings.

He built the same sympathy for Archer and for Saber (seriously, those dreams that Shirou watched her suffer all alone and blah blah blah? Same with Rin watching Archer's struggle). Sakura got a stronger focus because she in general is the focus of the plot. They were all redundant written sometimes.

The focus on sympathy made her less likable compared to Rin and Saber who are, by far more popular as female characters in the Nasu verse. In terms of which couple is generally prefered I assume it will be the latter 2 instead of Sakura who is not liked as much as the other 2. However circumstances made her the heroine of HF and thus because of the setup of the routes the most "canon" perhaps only in appearance.

Once again, nobody is saying a route is more 'canon' than the others. But that Shirou's character journey formally concluded in HF (hollow ataraxia, once again, isn't about him at all). Same as Rin's (and Sakura's). Whoever he's dating isn't important but the man he has become, he's finally found his own way rather than faking someone else. He's a new self made man (in more ways than others). As contrast, Saber's journey concluded in Fate. I dislike her portrayal in the other routes because I feel she's more a plot device to portray a stage of Shirou's ideal dilemna than a character like she was in Fate route (like UBW: Shirou loses his mastership of Saber = probably symbolic of his ideals shaking. In HF, he doesn't only lose Saber as Master but he kills her. She is the embodiment of his ideals there and killing her, means completely forsaking them. So yeah. I kind of disliked that a bit, being a Saber fan. Sure, she does cool stuff, but I can't shake off that feeling she's just a tool like Sakura was in the two other routes where she was the symbol of 'domestic normal bliss'. Ugh).

About the rest: Circumstances made Saber and Rin heroines too. And made Shirou a protagonist.

Shirou always focuses on sympathy. He loved Saber and Rin for their vulnerability (besides their assets) rather than their strengths (which always found slightly creepy, but it fits Shirou rather messed up mind) in the beginning. It was very drilled to my head that Shirou became smitten with Saber because of how pitiful she looked in that bloodstained hill and so on. Likewise, it was the time Rin was struggling with her hardships as magus like when the bloodfort Andromeda was activated and there was this Moment of Weakness (although this was less dwelled on because Rin was hardly a focus on UBW).

Why else in the routes that they don't display those weak sides, he friendzones them, hmm? It is all about looking at the vulnerable angles for him. The struggling girl who are caught in grim circumstances. In fact, there's also an element he's indebted to them (Saber for protecting him in Fate, Rin for saving his life in UBW after he realizes).

The very same as Sakura, IMO. Who fits these very same parameters.

Sakura is not really that unpopular. Unfortunately, my favorite Fate girl, Bazett, is miles more unpopular than Sakura is (who is among the top ten in the latest Type Moon survey I’ve seen). Shirou is not even in the top ten at all.

Does Archer replace Shirou as 'Harem lead' because he's overwhelmingly more popular as male character? Nope. It doesn't mean anything. :heh:

Hell, Kohaku is vastly more popular than say Ciel or Hisui yet when promoting Tsukihime Heroines, they push her as same as Hisui in importance and make Ciel way more prominent.

Edit: Lol Lancer beat Shirou in the 2009 poll too.

[BladeEntity]

I disagree.

I don't think Sakura is the 'underdog' by a mile in the terms of Shirou romance in FSN. It's pretty clear she's the girl of Shirou's life, IMO. She's the only girl with who Shirou seems to have an adult relationship with and risks everything for in the ending. We see how they are in an adult relationship later on after two years.

His love for Saber was always portrayed as a bittersweet departure (aside of the Realta Nua ending, which is not really included in the original version: aka they are throwing a bone to the fanboys). Something that isn't as much as romance but the validation of their paths that give them peace of mind. It's a beautiful ideal love, but they don't really have a relationship at all.

Basically Shirou's has his annoying hero complex!! IMO beacuse Sakura was portrayed as childhood friend/wife type of heroine which would make it seem like they have an adult relationship. I would say that it is a great way to desribe Saber and Shirou's as idea love as, both characters are extremely idealistic during the route in which they are in love. However once again due to circumstances they could not have that relationship. Unfortunately the relationship I liked the most is determined by how much I like the heroine, in this case I am baised.

Considering the fact the Nasu chose to make it into a VN instead of other media where just HF was the focus, showed that while he had his own personal preference i.e Sakura, the fact that it is a VN I think shows that he accepted and appreaciated the characters of Rin and Saber as similarly canon endings.

I say this again, from a narative perpective the 3 routes came together to build a story based around Shirou and how his nature changed according to cirumstances and the main heroine.

[Thess]

Basically Shirou's has his annoying hero complex!! IMO beacuse Sakura was portrayed as childhood friend/wife type of heroine which would make it seem like they have an adult relationship. I would say that it is a great way to desribe Saber and Shirou's as idea love as, both characters are extremely idealistic during the route in which they are in love. However once again due to circumstances they could not have that relationship. Unfortunately the relationship I liked the most is determined by how much I like the heroine, in this case I am baised.

They are adults and in a relationship with each other at the end, after many hardships. That's what you expect from real life.

The love Saber and Shirou share is beautiful but unsubstantial. It isn't 'real' in the sense of a concrete relationship. Sakura is the heroine who gets a solid romantic development (over a year before the war starts). Rin gets one too, but it's more teenage stuff and she has vaguely known Shirou as well. As contrast Saber knows Shirou for... 12 days. :heh: It's feels like an 'in love with being in love' case.

We don't really know if they would last as couple, you know, because there's more in a relationship than that. Sakura has gone past the honeymoon stage already (when there is commitment).

I like Saber the most, and Saber/Shirou as pairing second, but I think that logical-wise, it's likely the worst developed in terms of realism. It doesn't resolve any of Shirou's issues either. It's mostly beneficial for Saber (not that I complain lol Since she needed that to be at peace). :p

Considering the fact the Nasu chose to make it into a VN instead of other media where just HF was the focus, showed that while he had his own personal preference i.e Sakura, the fact that it is a VN I think shows that he accepted and appreaciated the characters of Rin and Saber as similarly canon endings.

Re-read what I said: the endings are all canon, but only in HF we see the conclusion of Shirou's journey as character. That's what they called it "Grand Finale" in the Tiger Dojo, IMO, and why Shirou found his Answer. It isn't much Sakura, but his lifestyle. Of course, it relates to her as the Loved One/Iri figure. But you could have had Illya in that position too.

Who he's sleeping with shouldn't be important.

See, this annoys me occasionally. Why fans care about that, anyway? One of the things I loved of Hollow Ataraxia is that the main female character (Bazett) was the only one (aside of Caster) who never got a H-scene with the male protagonist and yet their bond was more important than that. That was extremely refreshing personally.

I say this again, from a narrative perspective the 3 routes came together to build a story based around Shirou and how his nature changed according to circumstances and the main heroine.

The routes were mean to reflect something else too. It's not about who he's having sex with but his hero's journey. That's why Fate/UBW are said to ask a question and HF ends with its answer. Which is why fans think of it as conclusion for Shirou's story, it has nothing to do with Sakura (although she's a connected to this, it's not really what matters when people say that, IMO), but his way of life. Saber didn't need or want a live with Shirou, either which is what I like of her (but what made the pairing less romantic).

[Haak]

(aside of the Realta Nua ending, which is not really included in the original version: aka they are throwing a bone to the fanboys).

This is pretty much one of the two minor bits that I disagree with, because otherwise i think you've made some excellent points all round.

I don't really see why it has to be considered a bone to the fanboys just because it was added in later (Because personally i also thought the relationship between Saber and Shirou was really weak, until I read Last Episode, at which point I became a massive fan). It's more than possible that it could be another "answer" to the question, which leads me to the next point.


HF is canonically referred as the grand finale that gives an 'answer' to the 'question' proposed in the first two routes ("How should Shirou live?").

Ilya specifically said that it was "one of the answers". Now maybe that was just bad a bad translation but I'd like to believe there was more than one. I think if there was an Ilya's route, that would've been one as well.

[Thess]

This is pretty much one of the two minor bits that I disagree with, because otherwise i think you've made some excellent points all round.

I don't really see why it has to be considered a bone to the fanboys just because it was added in later (Because personally i also thought the relationship between Saber and Shirou was really weak, until I read Last Episode, at which point I became a massive fan). It's more than possible that it could be another "answer" to the question, which leads me to the next point.

It wasn't included in the visual novel... so yeah, I don't really see it as True ending, more like a bonus Good Ending.

I have a love/hate relationship with that ending myself. Is it romantic and well written? It is, but I hate the whole woman waiting for her man cliché. I didn't like it in Cherry Blossom's dream and I didn't like it in Last Episode. In Cherry Blossom's Dream, I chalk it out with Sakura's emotional state, but King Arthur... waiting endlessly for a Japanese high schooler she met for less than two weeks? Naaaaah, no thanks. I don't think so. Japanese are enamored with this cliché (they find it romantic), but I'm not that fond of it. I loved how the story ended with Saber's peace, so anything beyond that becomes a footnote. At least they could have added her faithful knights waiting with her. It also seems a little contradictory with the resolution of their ending since both of them parted ways and accepted this without sorrow. I never found that outcome sad...? Since Saber was content.

Saber is not Sakura, so to have her wait like Sakura does is pretty damn jarring. For the record, Rin wouldn't do the same either. The endings were distinct from each others.

...I wouldn't say that this has to do with the answer because it links to the Fate Route (which was proposing the question and, once again, we don't see Shirou 'living' his life lol).

Ilya specifically said that it was "one of the answers". Now maybe that was just bad a bad translation but I'd like to believe there was more than one. I think if there was an Ilya's route, that would've been one as well.

It could be. This I entirely think is likely (unlike the other).

Being Illya's suffering. ;-;

[Haak]

It wasn't included in the visual novel... so yeah, I don't really see it as True ending, more like a bonus Good Ending.

I have a love/hate relationship with that ending myself. Is it romantic and well written? It is, but I hate the whole woman waiting for her man cliché. I didn't like it in Cherry Blossom's dream and I didn't like it in Last Episode. In Cherry Blossom's Dream, I chalk it out with Sakura's emotional state, but King Arthur... waiting endlessly for a Japanese high schooler she met for less than two weeks? Naaaaah, no thanks. I don't think so. Japanese are enamored with this cliché (they find it romantic), but I'm not that fond of it. I loved how the story ended with Saber's peace, so anything beyond that becomes a footnote. At least they could have added her faithful knights waiting with her. It also seems a little contradictory with the resolution of their ending since both of them parted ways and accepted this without sorrow. I never found that outcome sad...? Since Saber was content.

Saber is not Sakura, so to have her wait like Sakura does is pretty damn jarring. For the record, Rin wouldn't do the same either. The endings were distinct from each others.

Hmm good point. What I liked about that ending was Saber finding her peace too. Yeah, waitng for a Japanese highschooler is a a degree of pandering that I couldn't help but notice too but if I can get round the obvious genderbending... :heh:

I don't agree with Saber not being a able to wait, though. I think it's perfectly in line.



It could be. ;_;

Being Illya's suffering.

Just to be clear, I'd actually rather it be non-romantic. I suppose that's why it never happened. You can't make a serious story about love with a loli...

[Thess]

Hmm good point. What I liked about that ending was Saber finding her peace too. Yeah, waitng for a Japanese highschooler is a a degree of pandering that I couldn't help but notice too but if I can get round the obvious genderbending... :heh:

I don't agree with Saber not being a able to wait, though. I think it's perfectly in line.

It bothers me because Saber wouldn't really wait. It feels like she had to bear the burden of wait (which is even sadder: postponing resolution) instead of find peace straightaway like the Continuation of a Dream resolution, see? It's like the Sakura's Cherry Blossom Memory ending. Only up to Eleven since she was alone. :uhoh:

Just to be clear, I'd actually rather it be non-romantic. I suppose that's why it never happened. You can't make a serious story about love with a loli...

Sure you can. What if along the way, somehow she grows up into Iri Level Hotness and her true age. :D

It would be nice to have Illya route because might be the Archer-creation one? It's promising. That's an Answer (even if the wrong one?).

[Haak]

It bothers me because Saber wouldn't really wait. It feels like she had to bear the burden of wait (which is even sadder: postponing resolution) instead of find peace straightaway like the Continuation of a Dream resolution, see? It's like the Sakura's Cherry Blossom Memory ending. Only up to Eleven since she was alone. :uhoh:

I think the Continuation of Dream did at least give her some degree of resolution so it's not like she had nothing, like Sakura. And plus it was a sort of resolution for Shirou as well who had to endure all sorts of hardships to get there.


Sure you can. What if along the way, somehow she grows up into Iri Level Hotness and her true age. :D

It would be nice to have Illya route because might be the Archer-creation one? It's promising. That's an Answer (even if the wrong one?).

Then the loli fans will complain to no end. :rolleyes:

I think Ilya said something about making sure she wouldn't let Shirou go down that route, as well. It's hard to imagine Ilya letting him go down that route anyway...

[GDB]

It bothers me because Saber wouldn't really wait. It feels like she had to bear the burden of wait (which is even sadder: postponing resolution) instead of find peace straightaway like the Continuation of a Dream resolution, see? It's like the Sakura's Cherry Blossom Memory ending. Only up to Eleven since she was alone. :uhoh:

Her afterlife in Avalon would have the same number of people up until that point either way. The only difference is whether she was waiting for Shirou or not. It's not as if she were sitting in purgatory, unable to cross over because she was waiting for him.

What if along the way, somehow she grows up into Iri Level Hotness and her true age. :D

I think that'd be more of an epilogue than mid-story. She has to switch bodies at some point within a year of the war ending anyway or else she'd end up dead, ala the Fate route.

[Haak]

I also want to make the point the main reason I think Ilya's route would be another "answer" is because of my personal theory that Ilya is actually more similar to Ryougi Shiki/Kohaku than any other FSN character. I'd like to elaborate but can't right now, but trust me it's not as crazy as it sounds...

[EDIT]

Okay, first off let me start by stating why I think Ryougi Shiki and Kohaku are similar. Whilst I was playing Kohaku’s route, I couldn’t help but notice how similar Kohaku’s route was to the very last Kara no Kyoukai film. Both were essentially a story about stopping the girl from crossing the Moral Event Horizon (Now obviously that wouldn’t work completely with Kohaku’s route since it lacks two people to battle which is why they had to randomly throw in a Yandere Akiha, but the principle is the same). Despite the fact that Kohaku’s background is far more similar to Sakura and Asagami, in the end her storyline purpose was the same as Ryougi’s. You’ll also notice that if you consider Hisui and Kohaku two sides of the same coin, you’ll find there’s even more similarities. Hisui is the cold introverted aloof type who is deep down actually quite emotional (like Ryougi Shiki’s female personality) whilst Kohaku is the happy-looking extraverted genki type who deep down knows nothing but murder, but as it turns out can fall in love too (like Ryougi Shiki’s male personality)

Now let me explain why Kohaku is dissimilar to Sakura. As I said, Kohaku’s background is the same as Sakura but in terms of storyline purpose they are different. Whilst Sakura’s story is also about preventing the girl from crossing the Moral Event Horizon it’s not quite the same degree, since Dark Sakura is so different she’s almost like an entirely different person altogether. One could even make the case that Sakura isn’t really in control of herself here, unlike Ryougi Shiki and Kohaku. In my opinion, Sakura’s story was more about Saving the Damsel in Distress, which I think is what Asagami’s story turned out to be as well (ironically from the main character).

Now finally I should explain why Ilya is similar to Ryougi and Kohaku. I think character-wise Ilya and Kohaku are actually the same i.e. the happy-looking extraverted genki type who deep down knows nothing but murder, but as it turns out can fall in love too (I suppose Berserker would be the cold one that’s actually emotional but that doesn’t quite work...). I also think that storyline wise they would be the same as well. If there was an Ilya route, I think it would be about stopping her from fulfilling the Holy Grail process and she’s conflicted in whether she can trust Shirou after seeing him kill Sakura. In my opinion Ilya’s route would’ve started off after killing Sakura in the church the same way you can only progress to Akiha, Hisui and Kohaku when you kill Sacchin. Incidentally, I also think that if there was a Sacchin route it would be the same as Sakura’s story, since Sacchin turns into a pretty powerful vampire and it would be about saving her from her evil side and her tormentor (whoever the hell bit her, I can’t remember.) Well, we’ll know once the remake comes out. Another interesting factor is that Sakura’s tormentor (Zouken & Shinji) is a factor in her story whilst Kohaku’s (Makihisa) was long dead. Ryougi Shiki’s family – the people who made her that way – don’t come up again at all and this is also the case with Ilya and the Einsbergs (who are arguably just as villainous as Zouken).

It’s hard to explain the differences since in the end Ryougi Shiki did say that she and Asagami were “birds of a feather” and plus the similarities I’ve made between Ryougi Shiki, Kohaku and Ilya aren’t 100% either but I think there is a distinction that can be made.

[Ragna92]

HF brings a resolution. Pretty sure Nasu prefers Sakura as Shirou's love interest, Saber's just stamped as 'main heroine' because she's the most popular (although, not sure if she's popular with Shirou or just with herself. I like Saber a lot more than Sakura as character, but the Shirou/Saber pairing less than Sakura/Shirou).

Well Saber is pretty much stamped is the main heroine because she is the first heroine. Plus not only is she the most popular heroine she is the most popular in the franchise period(P.S. I'm surprised the bisexual girl isn't more popular then her). Realistically speaking though FSN doesn't have 1 main heroine.

I agree about the Sakura/Shirou thing, even though I like Rin and Saber much more then Sakura, when it comes to relationships with Shirou, Sakura fits the best. Plus I like Rin/Saber as characters more then just being the main characters lover.

[Cherry_Lover]

If there was an Ilya route, I think it would be about stopping her from fulfilling the Holy Grail process and she’s conflicted in whether she can trust Shirou after seeing him kill Sakura. In my opinion Ilya’s route would’ve started off after killing Sakura in the church the same way you can only progress to Akiha, Hisui and Kohaku when you kill Sacchin.

I don't think that is true, actually. It would likely have split from that decision, but there's no way that MoS Shirou could get into an Ilya route. He's just too cold and devoted to his "ideal". Most likely, Shirou would refuse to kill Sakura, but would want to protect Ilya instead. Or, he would just abandon Sakura and talk to Ilya....

[Haak]

I think it's impossible to say what MoS Shirou would be like but I can easily see him regretting his decision.

[Cherry_Lover]

I think it's impossible to say what MoS Shirou would be like but I can easily see him regretting his decision.

Honestly, I think it's too late. If he "regrets his decision", he'd fall apart under the strain of essentially being a murderer.

[Haak]

I think he would have mixed emotions but not quite fullblown regret until after he decides he needs to save Ilya. But I can also see him falling apart but manage to bring himself back just in time for Ilya (and then break down again - at which point Archerko will emerge in all her glory). Or alternatively he could decide to undo his deed by actually fighting for the Holy Grail at first.

[Cherry_Lover]

Except that fighting for the Grail means killing Ilya....

[Haak]

Hence why I said "at first".

[DragoZERO]

HA is more of a fan/fun disc than a sequel. Because of how the routes were set up and the fate of each character in said route, there is no way to have a sequel.

If only we could have used Rule Breaker on Saber... curse you Nasu!

[BladeEntity]

They are adults and in a relationship with each other at the end, after many hardships. That's what you expect from real life.

The love Saber and Shirou share is beautiful but unsubstantial. It isn't 'real' in the sense of a concrete relationship. Sakura is the heroine who gets a solid romantic development (over a year before the war starts). Rin gets one too, but it's more teenage stuff and she has vaguely known Shirou as well. As contrast Saber knows Shirou for... 12 days. :heh: It's feels like an 'in love with being in love' case.

We don't really know if they would last as couple, you know, because there's more in a relationship than that. Sakura has gone past the honeymoon stage already (when there is commitment).

I like Saber the most, and Saber/Shirou as pairing second, but I think that logical-wise, it's likely the worst developed in terms of realism. It doesn't resolve any of Shirou's issues either. It's mostly beneficial for Saber (not that I complain lol Since she needed that to be at peace). :p

I disagree The year of development between Shirou and Sakura during the time before the actual events of the 5th war is insignificant unless when dealing with the HF universe set of events because within the previous 2 routes that development is selved and Sakura is thrown into the background, although I feel that this is just a way in which to create the suspense for HF

However that lack of realism was exactly the reason why it was the relationship that blossomed during the Fate route which was the route that emphasized most about Shirou living his life sticking completely to his ideals without wavering which was "his" answer for that route. Similarly like what you said they had an ideal love which was more beautiful IMO then the other 2 relationships within the other routes. What suits him best and what is developed the most means nothing in the face of true love... but meh all 3 routes had true love.

Re-read what I said: the endings are all canon, but only in HF we see the conclusion of Shirou's journey as character. That's what they called it "Grand Finale" in the Tiger Dojo, IMO, and why Shirou found his Answer. It isn't much Sakura, but his lifestyle. Of course, it relates to her as the Loved One/Iri figure. But you could have had Illya in that position too.

Who he's sleeping with shouldn't be important.

See, this annoys me occasionally. Why fans care about that, anyway? One of the things I loved of Hollow Ataraxia is that the main female character (Bazett) was the only one (aside of Caster) who never got a H-scene with the male protagonist and yet their bond was more important than that. That was extremely refreshing personally.

You could have technically anyone in that postion of being Shirou's loved one, but I guess in HF Sakura was the greatest victim of circumstances and she paid a huge price but got the happiest ending for the main heroine geting Shirou compared to the other routes and I'm not complaining. While the endings implied different kinds of relationships between Shirou and the respective heroine, once again it was left to own interpretation. Anything could have happened and we got what we got.

The routes were mean to reflect something else too. It's not about who he's having sex with but his hero's journey. That's why Fate/UBW are said to ask a question and HF ends with its answer. Which is why fans think of it as conclusion for Shirou's story, it has nothing to do with Sakura (although she's a connected to this, it's not really what matters when people say that, IMO), but his way of life. Saber didn't need or want a live with Shirou, either which is what I like of her (but what made the pairing less romantic).

While it was a journey about a boy who wanted to be a hero with HF, him realising that he only could be a hero to people he wanted to protect and that was in a way his resolution but as I said HF presented the most relistic lifestlye but that also does not degrade the choices made within the previous 2 routes.

It is meerly a conjuction to say that Saber did not want to live with Shirou, it was clear that while it wouldn't mean she would die if she couldn't be with him, she would have wanted to be with him but the "hero" within them gave them their choice and they lived to wait for that miracle. UBW Good ending showed that given a choice she would have wanted to live the peaceful life with Shirou.

[Shadow5YA]

While it was a journey about a boy who wanted to be a hero with HF, him realising that he only could be a hero to people he wanted to protect and that was in a way his resolution but as I said HF presented the most relistic lifestlye but that also does not degrade the choices made within the previous 2 routes.

It is meerly a conjuction to say that Saber did not want to live with Shirou, it was clear that while it wouldn't mean she would die if she couldn't be with him, she would have wanted to be with him but the "hero" within them gave them their choice and they lived to wait for that miracle. UBW Good ending showed that given a choice she would have wanted to live the peaceful life with Shirou.

I wouldn't call a relationship where one only gives while the other only takes a realistic relationship. Sure, Shirou narrows his scope down to one person, but how is it any less destructive than the atruism Archer and Rin criticized him for in UBW?

[BladeEntity]

Shirou has his hero complex which makes any kind of heroism destructive, but it is realistic to have the veiwpoint of sacrificing the many to save the few especially if that person were close to him, in a way love is sometimes extremely selfish. Besides I can see why you say that their relationship is not of mutual giving as during HF we see little of what Sakura does for Shirou but Sakura does show her care and love for Shirou throughut the route.

Strange though Sakura/Shirou are my least favourite pairing. I can see the relationship as plausible. To each his own.

[Cherry_Lover]

I wouldn't call a relationship where one only gives while the other only takes a realistic relationship. Sure, Shirou narrows his scope down to one person, but how is it any less destructive than the atruism Archer and Rin criticized him for in UBW?

But their relationship won't be like that at all. Sure, in the beginning Shirou is doing most of the "giving", but that's because Sakura needs a hell of a lot of help to get out of the hell she's in, and to develop into a more normal person after having to survive so long in such an abnornal environment. As Sakura recovers from the abuse she went through, she will start to give Shirou back just as much as she takes from him.

[Thess]

I wouldn't call a relationship where one only gives while the other only takes a realistic relationship. Sure, Shirou narrows his scope down to one person, but how is it any less destructive than the atruism Archer and Rin criticized him for in UBW?

Uh...Sakura is the Anti Saber, she's the very symbolism of a normal, blissful life that's slowly growing, rather than an ideal, unfilled rushed star crossed romance. That's why she had previous development before the War.

He was adamant to keep her from being 'troubled' by the War, for what she stood for. When he lost that, is when he struggles to recover it, because he realizes: hey, he can be happy as a human being next to Sakura. And that happiness that he feels is what's worth fighting for. He's not being self-destructive, in fact, the self destructive path is the opposite (destroy that person) which basically turns him into Kiritsugu II. HF makes Shirou happy and having a certain future with his loved one (what Kiritsugu would have wanted for him but because of his ideals, he sacrificed and thus lived and died miserably).

I disagree The year of development between Shirou and Sakura during the time before the actual events of the 5th war is insignificant unless when dealing with the HF universe set of events because within the previous 2 routes that development is selved and Sakura is thrown into the background, although I feel that this is just a way in which to create the suspense for HF

No, it's not meaningless. See above.

Shirou was already in love with Sakura. He had to realize it. In Fate, he got distracted by Saber. In UBW, by Rin. He pushed Sakura away for her own safety, so those feelings never bloomed. If you go and play those options to talk to Sakura, you can see he (before the war starts) have strong hints of infatuation (he's kind of dense).

Had there be no war at all, the only logical road is towards Sakura. So Rin and Saber depended more on the circumstances of the War than Sakura did in the romantic department.

However that lack of realism was exactly the reason why it was the relationship that blossomed during the Fate route which was the route that emphasized most about Shirou living his life sticking completely to his ideals without wavering which was "his" answer for that route. Similarly like what you said they had an ideal love which was more beautiful IMO then the other 2 relationships within the other routes. What suits him best and what is developed the most means nothing in the face of true love... but meh all 3 routes had true love.

Except that in the Tiger Dojo we have word of god that route and UBW had no answer, but a question of how Shirou should live. ;)

One possible answer is found in Heaven's Feel. He didn't find any answer in Fate. Fate was about Saber, anyway. She found her answer. UBW was more about a sporadic ceasefire.

I'm agreeing that a potential Illya's route could have another.

Once again, I'm bringing Shirou's hero journey not who he's sleeping with at the time. It concludes in HF.

It is meerly a conjuction to say that Saber did not want to live with Shirou, it was clear that while it wouldn't mean she would die if she couldn't be with him, she would have wanted to be with him but the "hero" within them gave them their choice and they lived to wait for that miracle. UBW Good ending showed that given a choice she would have wanted to live the peaceful life with Shirou.

Shirou knew what she wanted to do. She's a king first. That so-called "good ending" is terrible, because Saber hasn't still found her answer. That's why she's staying, she's still pretty much burdened by her guilt and issues from the Fate route.

They were never resolved in that "Good" ending (it's not good for her). Saber might have more action scenes, but her inner burdens are left unresolved in every route (same with Sakura's, outside HF), outside of hers. So they were both shafted in different ways.

[mAc Chaos]

I thought they were resolved by the Fate route.

[Thess]

I thought they were resolved by the Fate route.

What exactly?

Saber's burdens? Yeah, but in the other routes no such thing happen. Saber herself stays in this "good ending" because she still has to find her answer, IIRC (so it means she's still crippled by regret, only nobody knows). Same why the Sakura's situation is not resolved in the other routes outside of HF.

[Shadow5YA]

How the hell did you respond to a quote that I never said?

[Haak]

LOL XD. It looks like Thess quoted BladeEntity but somehow managed to stick your name and post on it.

Quote Fail. XP

[Thess]

LOL XD. It looks like Thess quoted BladeEntity but somehow managed to stick your name and post on it.

Quote Fail. XP

Yes. I did.

/facepalm

I'll fix it! :o

[Shadow5YA]

Uh...Sakura is the Anti Saber, she's the very symbolism of a normal, blissful life that's slowly growing, rather than an ideal, unfilled rushed star crossed romance. That's why she had previous development before the War.

He was adamant to keep her from being 'troubled' by the War, for what she stood for. When he lost that, is when he struggles to recover it, because he realizes: hey, he can be happy as a human being next to Sakura. And that happiness that he feels is what's worth fighting for. He's not being self-destructive, in fact, the self destructive path is the opposite (destroy that person) which basically turns him into Kiritsugu II. HF makes Shirou happy and having a certain future with his loved one (what Kiritsugu would have wanted for him but because of his ideals, he sacrificed and thus lived and died miserably).


I wouldn't call a needy girl with a traumatic past full of abuse symbolic of a normal life. In fact, Shirou's relationship with Sakura would be even farther from reality than his relationship with Saber or Rin.

A "realistic" person must know when to give and take. While it's true that Shirou's goals in Fate and UBW were impossible to fulfill, at least Saber and Rin made an effort to make sure he took care of himself and didn't die from giving too much. My problem with Sakura is that all she does is take and accept Shirou's love but does not give anything in return. You see Shirou's body slowly breaking down from the battles in HF, and Sakura does little to ease his weariness.

[cyberdemon]

I'm so sad and yet happy. i just finished FSN last night but i suddenly feel sad that it is all over. it was such a great game. Definitely HF route was the best.

[BladeEntity]

No, it's not meaningless. See above.

Shirou was already in love with Sakura. He had to realize it. In Fate, he got distracted by Saber. In UBW, by Rin. He pushed Sakura away for her own safety, so those feelings never bloomed. If you go and play those options to talk to Sakura, you can see he (before the war starts) have strong hints of infatuation (he's kind of dense).

Had there be no war at all, the only logical road is towards Sakura. So Rin and Saber depended more on the circumstances of the War than Sakura did in the romantic department.

You can't say he was in love with Sakura before the war starts in all the routes if he is able to fall in love with someone else which is where the argument seems slightly flawed. I do agree he was infatuated with her though but that does not amount to feelings of love that he has in HF that leads to his "answer" as a hero. Shirou would have to be gay or a robot to not feel anything for a girl who comes to your house everyday to fix you a meal and take care of you like a housewife would.

Except that in the Tiger Dojo we have word of god that route and UBW had no answer, but a question of how Shirou should live. ;)

One possible answer is found in Heaven's Feel. He didn't find any answer in Fate. Fate was about Saber, anyway. She found her answer. UBW was more about a sporadic ceasefire.

I'm agreeing that a potential Illya's route could have another.

Once again, I'm bringing Shirou's hero journey not who he's sleeping with at the time. It concludes in HF.

I'm talking about his hero journey too. While the Tiger dojo says that the first two routes ask a question with HF being an answer. I understanding of Fate at least is that at the end he stuck to the status quo which is an "answer" to his hero journey within that route. To continue being idealistic and dreaming of doing the impossible is an "answer" albeit a rather unrealistic one.

Furthermore ,I also feel that a rhetorical question can also be an answer to the question which is what he comes to with the Fate/UBW routes not a definite answer but still his lifestyle has been chosen. In HF we see a change in that lifestyle and the definite answer to the question asked with the first 2 routes.

Shirou knew what she wanted to do. She's a king first. That so-called "good ending" is terrible, because Saber hasn't still found her answer. That's why she's staying, she's still pretty much burdened by her guilt and issues from the Fate route.

They were never resolved in that "Good" ending (it's not good for her). Saber might have more action scenes, but her inner burdens are left unresolved in every route (same with Sakura's, outside HF), outside of hers. So they were both shafted in different ways.

I agree though I thought UBW Good ending was crap. However it does prove that she does not mind having that peaceful lifestyle with Shirou that she could not have as a king at least until she finds her resolute answer to how she wanted to live her life.

I wouldn't call a needy girl with a traumatic past full of abuse symbolic of a normal life. In fact, Shirou's relationship with Sakura would be even farther from reality than his relationship with Saber or Rin.

A "realistic" person must know when to give and take. While it's true that Shirou's goals in Fate and UBW were impossible to fulfill, at least Saber and Rin made an effort to make sure he took care of himself and didn't die from giving too much. My problem with Sakura is that all she does is take and accept Shirou's love but does not give anything in return. You see Shirou's body slowly breaking down from the battles in HF, and Sakura does little to ease his weariness.

This I agree with... The relationship was extremely one sided with the only comfort Sakura gave was comfort a wife gives to his husband and that he could have gotten from anyone if there was anyone else.

[Haak]

Shirou was already in love with Sakura. He had to realize it. In Fate, he got distracted by Saber. In UBW, by Rin. He pushed Sakura away for her own safety, so those feelings never bloomed. If you go and play those options to talk to Sakura, you can see he (before the war starts) have strong hints of infatuation (he's kind of dense).

Had there be no war at all, the only logical road is towards Sakura. So Rin and Saber depended more on the circumstances of the War than Sakura did in the romantic department.

I remember having this argument with Cherry Lover before. In my opinion, I don't think Shirou is already in love with Sakura unless you make those choices to talk to Sakura before the war starts. I think the Shirou who doesn't choose to talk to Sakura and the Shirou who does are two slightly different characters. Otherwise, there's no real reason why Shirou didn't grow an attachment to Saber as much as he did at the start of Fate. In the start of the Fate route, Shirou saw Saber getting all banged up by Berserker and didn't want that to happen again. In Heaven's Feel he saw the same thing and yet had no compucture in going out on patrols with her and letting her fight.

[DragoZERO]

I'm so sad and yet happy. i just finished FSN last night but i suddenly feel sad that it is all over. it was such a great game. Definitely HF route was the best.Welcome to the club! You'll enjoy Fate/Zero even more now. :D

Now, play Tsukihime if you haven't.

I remember having this argument with Cherry Lover before. In my opinion, I don't think Shirou is already in love with Sakura unless you make those choices to talk to Sakura before the war starts. I think the Shirou who doesn't choose to talk to Sakura and the Shirou who does are two slightly different characters. Otherwise, there's no real reason why Shirou didn't grow an attachment to Saber as much as he did at the start of Fate. In the start of the Fate route, Shirou saw Saber getting all banged up by Berserker and didn't want that to happen again. In Heaven's Feel he saw the same thing and yet had no compucture in going out on patrols with her and letting her fight.Shirou was neutral with all of the girls at the start of the game. It's what the player chooses that shapes his feelings. It's the entire basis of an eroge, lol.

[cyberdemon]

Welcome to the club! You'll enjoy Fate/Zero even more now. :D

Now, play Tsukihime if you haven't.

Shirou was neutral with all of the girls at the start of the game. It's what the player chooses that shapes his feelings. It's the entire basis of an eroge, lol.

already loved Zero. Gonna read the novel after the anime is finished. It is sad i finished the game though. I have a short attention span so the long routes were difficult on my but i loved them lot and wish there was more to the game. Wonder when theyre going to put out a remake with the illya route and maybe some other routes or contents.

From the start i'd say Shiro was in love Sakura but refused to acknowledge it. He highly admired Rin but it wasn't quite love like how people view idols. Because sakura was pushed away early in the first 2 routes he was given much more time with saber and Rin and ended up falling for the 2 girls instead.

[DragoZERO]

already loved Zero. Gonna read the novel after the anime is finished. It is sad i finished the game though. I have a short attention span so the long routes were difficult on my but i loved them lot and wish there was more to the game. Wonder when theyre going to put out a remake with the illya route and maybe some other routes or contents.There will never be a remake with an Illya route, sorry. And if you didn't already, do every bad end and choices you didn't make the first time around. There are a lot of extra goodies in the bad ends.

From the start i'd say Shiro was in love Sakura but refused to acknowledge it. He highly admired Rin but it wasn't quite love like how people view idols. Because sakura was pushed away early in the first 2 routes he ended up falling for the other 2 girls instead.I don't think there is enough evidence to prove that. Boy, we could be here all week discussing this topic... again.

[cyberdemon]

There will never be a remake with an Illya route, sorry. And if you didn't already, do every bad end and choices you didn't make the first time around. There are a lot of extra goodies in the bad ends.

I don't think there is enough evidence to prove that. Boy, we could be here all week discussing this topic... again.

lol, yeah i already did all 40 bad ends as well as the 5 regular ends. there is literally nothing left in the game. man that normal end to HF was depressing.

I wouldn't say there will never be a reake. Heard there was news of a tsukihime remake in the mix. Sure tsukihime is much older but that doesn't mean that in a few years they won't remake FSN as well.

[cyberdemon]

I wouldn't call a needy girl with a traumatic past full of abuse symbolic of a normal life. In fact, Shirou's relationship with Sakura would be even farther from reality than his relationship with Saber or Rin.

A "realistic" person must know when to give and take. While it's true that Shirou's goals in Fate and UBW were impossible to fulfill, at least Saber and Rin made an effort to make sure he took care of himself and didn't die from giving too much. My problem with Sakura is that all she does is take and accept Shirou's love but does not give anything in return. You see Shirou's body slowly breaking down from the battles in HF, and Sakura does little to ease his weariness.

So wanting to be the one to cook for the one she loves every day isn't giving to that person? She took care of him for for a year and a half even after the excuse of his injury ended. Her ending is the only really normal life ending. She gave him his own reason to live rather than the pretty sounding words of Kiritsugu, one that he chose himself. Even Shiro knows that for Sakura, helping him is what makes her happy as well.

[DragoZERO]

I wouldn't say there will never be a reake. Heard there was news of a tsukihime remake in the mix. Sure tsukihime is much older but that doesn't mean that in a few years they won't remake FSN as well.Realistically speaking, there won't be. If there was a bigger market and bigger demand, then maybe, but this isn't Hollywood. The Tsukihime remake and sequel have been rumored for a long, long time but so far... nothing. I wouldn't hold your breath.

[Thess]

I wouldn't call a needy girl with a traumatic past full of abuse symbolic of a normal life. In fact, Shirou's relationship with Sakura would be even farther from reality than his relationship with Saber or Rin.

A "realistic" person must know when to give and take. While it's true that Shirou's goals in Fate and UBW were impossible to fulfill, at least Saber and Rin made an effort to make sure he took care of himself and didn't die from giving too much. My problem with Sakura is that all she does is take and accept Shirou's love but does not give anything in return. You see Shirou's body slowly breaking down from the battles in HF, and Sakura does little to ease his weariness.

But Shirou didn't know until HF. You go and play the other routes and it's stated aloud that for him, Sakura encompassed that for him. Rin's and Saber's relationship were only possible because there was a fantastic war. Sakura's relationship was already a WIP for a year and half. Sakura was someone he loves not only as a family member but someone he found attractive.

The endings were distinct:

Saber ending is all about his superhero ideals. That's what she's to him: the path of following those self-sacrificing ideals to the end. She's even symbolically KILLED when he abandons the superhero bs path in HF.
Rin ending makes him go to study magic, not so normal, is there?
Sakura's ending is all about the happiness of a normal life (he even shared with her two years after it ended) as reward.

You're missing the point if you believe Sakura never gave him anything. During the war? Perhaps not so much. But she had already given Shirou all her love and days of happiness during a year and half previously. She had a stronger emotional bond, same with Fuji-nee.

You can't say he was in love with Sakura before the war starts in all the routes if he is able to fall in love with someone else which is where the argument seems slightly flawed. I do agree he was infatuated with her though but that does not amount to feelings of love that he has in HF that leads to his "answer" as a hero. Shirou would have to be gay or a robot to not feel anything for a girl who comes to your house everyday to fix you a meal and take care of you like a housewife would.

Uhh, any time you choose to have him talk to her before the war, he's ogling her. He had hots for her, but he didn't acknowledge this until HF. Shirou thought he didn't deserve happiness. Have we paid attention about how emotionally messed up he is? He didn't think he deserve to live. Sakura's presence made him happy, but he was too fucked up to acknolwedge it fullest. It wasn't until she made that move of hers, he couldn't excuse himself anymore.

With Saber and Rin was different. He barely talked to Rin, and he never met Saber, so of course you need extraordinary circumstances (Rin saving his life, Saber saving his life. Both showing a human like weakness) for Shirou to see them as romantic interest. Sakura was already this. She didn't need an extra push. But it would too neat and easy to make the route unexciting lol.

I'm talking about his hero journey too. While the Tiger dojo says that the first two routes ask a question with HF being an answer. I understanding of Fate at least is that at the end he stuck to the status quo which is an "answer" to his hero journey within that route. To continue being idealistic and dreaming of doing the impossible is an "answer" albeit a rather unrealistic one.

Fate doesn't resolve anything about his character... In fact, it's the route Shirou's less explored. That's why it has no answer for Shirou, it's all about Saber (I like Fate for Saber, not for Shirou lol). If TD says that those two are about questions, then they are about questions. HF is the only possible answer they have showed to us. In general, it seems Nasu was deconstructing the heroic ideal. HF resolves everything BUT the Saber situation (they just kill her off sigh).

I agree though I thought UBW Good ending was crap. However it does prove that she does not mind having that peaceful lifestyle with Shirou that she could not have as a king at least until she finds her resolute answer to how she wanted to live her life.

Which seems, IMO, absolutely insulting to Saber's character. So in the end, she's only a little girl according to that Good Ending crap, and not the King of Knights. I can't imagine her in peace after the little development she had in UBW compared to Fate (where she COULDN'T accept that lifestyle and there was more justified bond between her, Shirou and Rin, IMO). It makes me angry to think about it again... Shirou's change of heart and development in HF, doing what Kiritsugu wanted but refused foolishly was a masterpiece in growth, Saber got tackled-on a harem stuff which was absolutely cringeworthy. Hell, I ship Rin/Saber more than Saber/Shirou and I should be happy for that outcome, but I can't be.

Meh.


This I agree with... The relationship was extremely one sided with the only comfort Sakura gave was comfort a wife gives to his husband and that he could have gotten from anyone if there was anyone else.

...Sakura makes him happy, almost effortlessly. What's so one side about it? In fact, isn't her mana exchange ehem needed to keep Shirou's new body 100% functional. He's a whole new man for the first time in his life, not a fake Kiritsugu. Thanks to Sakura.

Not Rin and not Saber.

Their relationship is by far the most healthy for Shirou. I like Saber/Shirou more than Rin/Shirou (this one is ok, but honestly they have better chemistry with other people in general), but Saber's the WORST match for him (he's good for her, though). Outside of battles, they'll be awful in a romantic sense. That's why they never had a relationship. They wouldn't work as one, they would work as an epic feeling, but never as a couple, IMO. One of the reasons why I like them is because they would be unhealthy as hell.

I remember having this argument with Cherry Lover before. In my opinion, I don't think Shirou is already in love with Sakura unless you make those choices to talk to Sakura before the war starts. I think the Shirou who doesn't choose to talk to Sakura and the Shirou who does are two slightly different characters. Otherwise, there's no real reason why Shirou didn't grow an attachment to Saber as much as he did at the start of Fate. In the start of the Fate route, Shirou saw Saber getting all banged up by Berserker and didn't want that to happen again. In Heaven's Feel he saw the same thing and yet had no compucture in going out on patrols with her and letting her fight.

No... those choices you see an insight on his head. It's not as if Sakura's doing something extraordinary in the kitchen. His feelings are already there.

People can fall out love, specially when they haven't noticed their feelings. HF route, he had began to have a more or less concrete awareness of Sakura by that point (with an extra option), in the Fate one, he didn't.

So wanting to be the one to cook for the one she loves every day isn't giving to that person? She took care of him for for a year and a half even after the excuse of his injury ended. Her ending is the only really normal life ending. She gave him his own reason to live rather than the pretty sounding words of Kiritsugu, one that he chose himself. Even Shiro knows that for Sakura, helping him is what makes her happy as well.

lol, indeed. Thank you. Her ending is the only one Shirou's, in fact, in a long-lasting romantic relationship with a certain future too. He almost lost her thanks to the war, he fought to get her back, and he was rewarded with two years and counting of bliss.

What happened during the war is only important in Rin and Saber routes because they were never close to Shirou before it. Where is Saber's giving him stuff after it ended? Oh... right. What about Rin? We don't know for sure.

[Haak]

No... those choices you see an insight on his head. It's not as if Sakura's doing something extraordinary in the kitchen. His feelings are already there.

Exactly. If you choose the Sakura choices.


People can fall out love, specially when they haven't noticed their feelings. HF route, he had began to have a more or less concrete awareness of Sakura by that point (with an extra option), in the Fate one, he didn't.

I don't think you can fall out of love that easily. If that's the case then whatever love Shirou had for Sakura I wouldn't call very substantial.

Indeed in HF Shirou did in fact have more awareness of Sakura. That's because he chose more Sakura choices. And he chose more Sakura choices because he was already naturally gravitating towards her. If he doesn't choose those choices, then it shows he wasn't gravitating towards her beforehand, which means there's nothing in the way of her falling in love with Saber or Rin.

[Thess]

Exactly. If you choose the Sakura choices.

Those are given even in Fate route. The other options are the dojo training. Like I say, it doesn't portray anything exceptional in Shirou's routine. Shirou trains and has hots for cooking Sakura. Facts of his life before the war.

I don't think you can fall out of love that easily. If that's the case then whatever love Shirou had for Sakura I wouldn't call very substantial.

Indeed in HF Shirou did in fact have more awareness of Sakura. That's because he chose more Sakura choices. And he chose more Sakura choices because he was already naturally gravitating towards her. If he doesn't choose those choices, then it shows he wasn't gravitating towards her beforehand, which means there's nothing in the way of her falling in love with Saber or Rin.

The Sakura choices were even in Fate route. You're mistaking two things: love and romantic love. He already loved Sakura (she was his family), but his romantic feelings and attraction were muted until the HF route. There were hints he liked her that way, but once Saber or Rin triggered his hormones, she remained a family member rather than a love interest. What was growing into that direction, halted. There are two ways to write romance: one is making a character fall in love first (hormones, infatuation) then begin to seriously love that person. This is what happens with Shirou's feelings with Rin and Saber (he finds them hot girls first then he grows to love them). Another is love that person first, but the romantic feelings develop last (this is what happens with Sakura). She was first part of his family, before he was slowly realizing that she was an attractive girl.

Usually manga/anime tackle either of those styles of narrative stories. FSN isn't an exception.

[Haak]

Those are given even in Fate route. The other options are the dojo training. Like I say, it doesn't portray anything exceptional in Shirou's routine. Shirou trains and has hots for cooking Sakura. Facts of his life before the war.

Those choices are given in Fate too but he didn't taken them. That's what I'm saying. The one who does take them is different to the one who doesn't.


The Sakura choices were even in Fate route. You're mistaking two things: love and romantic love. He already loved Sakura (she was his family), but his romantic feelings and attraction were muted until the HF. There were hints he liked her that way, but once Saber or Rin triggered his hormones, she remained a family member rather than a love interest. What was growing into that direction, halted. There are two ways to write romance: one is making a character fall in love first (hormones, infatuation) then begin to seriously love that person. This is what happens with Shirou's feelings with Rin and Saber (he finds them hot girls first then he grows to love them). Another is love that person first, but the romantic feelings develop last (this is what happens with Sakura). She was first part of his family, before he was slowly realizing that she was an attractive girl.

Okay, if you meant familial love then I'd definitely agree. But then what kind of love did he fall out of then?

[Thess]

Okay, if you meant familial love then I'd definitely agree. But then what kind of love did he fall out of then?

I mustn't have expressed myself right, he loved her and he was slowly becoming smitten, but those feelings of attraction were stronger in presence of Saber or Rin (by the awe-struck he is), so he never realized he was once drawn. :) By the HF route, he had more chances to realize his attraction before the war.

[Nerroth]

I think a key thing to remember is that in Fate and UBW, even despite (or rather, because of) Sakura's strong feelings towards Shirou, she herself would almost certainly have been keen - no, desperate - for him not to openly fall for her.

Whatever kind of balance (for lack of a better term) she had found pre-war allowed her to spend the time she did with Shirou and Taiga, while still not triggering any overt reaction from Zouken. (Whether he held any private thoughts one way on the other about what she was doing, Sakura would have been loath to see things develop any further, for fear of what would then befall Shirou at that point.)

I suppose it could be argued that, in the other two routes, there may have been a part of her that was as much relieved for his sake as dismayed for her own in seeing him turn more to Saber or Rin. While post-Fate Shirou may or may not be looking for a new lover any time soon, and post-UBW Shirou has things with Rin to develop, at least he would have a shot at a life she would not be in a position to envision herself being able to provide.


Well, you could say that working with Rin to try and get Waver to shut down the Greater Grail would likely not sit well in Zouken's book, but that is a very different kind of attention to the one Shirou would draw if he asserted any serious romantic feelings towards Sakura (especially pre-war, when he would have been practically defenceless).

Plus, while none of them knew of it, I would hate to think what might have happened had pre-war Zouken found out Shirou had been carrying Avalon around this whole time...


Also, I would say that there's no particular reason to assume Things That Are Must Always Be from the point they are left immediately post-Fate or -UBW. Even going to London would itself open doors, in tems of meeting new people and encountering new ideas, that would not even be on the table back in Fuyuki (as anyone who has moved to another country as an adult can tell you); I'd like to think that, in the broad spectrum of near-alternate timelines out there in the vast Kaleidoscope, there are at least a few where things might find themselves going in new and unexpected directions.

But, I suppose it's probably not very intellectually honest of me to argue such when I've been trying to work on just that in my own fic writing, and not very diligently these days I might (regrettably) add; but oh well.

[Haak]

I mustn't have expressed myself right, he loved her and he was slowly becoming smitten, but those feelings of attraction were stronger in presence of Saber or Rin (by the awe-struck he is), so he never realized he was once drawn. :) By the HF route, he had more chances to realize his attraction before the war.

Eeehhh, I'm gonna have to play those three days again but I don't see much evidence of Shirou slowly becoming smitten with her unless we make those Sakura choices.

And I also think those choices were more chances for him to realize his attraction. But I also think he only has that attraction in the first place if he makes those choices. Those choices determine Shirou's character retroactively. If he makes the Sakura choices, then he was already gravitating towards her and those Sakura choices in turn reinforce that. But if he doesn't then there wasn't an attraction to begin with.

[Thess]

Eeehhh, I'm gonna have to play those three days again but I don't see much evidence of Shirou slowly becoming smitten with her unless we make those Sakura choices.

And I also think those choices were more chances for him to realize his attraction. But I also think he only has that attraction in the first place if he makes those choices. Those choices determine Shirou's character retroactively. If he makes the Sakura choices, then he was already gravitating towards her and those Sakura choices in turn reinforce that. But if he doesn't then there wasn't an attraction to begin with.

That's as if saying if we don't take the Dojo choices, Shirou isn't skillful or trained at all... The choices available since the beginning didn't signify anything pivotal, IMO, but to get a complete grasp of his character's routine before the war and all routes.

Those include his awakening awareness that Sakura was a hot girl long before her route was available. Mind you, it's the same with Saber and Rin, but the difference was that he didn't love them, he learned to in the span of the war. With Sakura, he already loved her (and Fuji-nee too), it's his romantic attraction (now she's "Grown up") what was fully blooming during her route. They are different types of romance, some that were based on awe, admiration or infatuation and grow later into something more lasting, like I gave examples Saber and Rin are basically this. Others, like Sakura, were based on love and steady friendship first, then grew into something less platonic.

[Haak]

That's as if saying if we don't take the Dojo choices, Shirou isn't skillful or trained at all... The choices available since the beginning didn't signify anything pivotal, IMO, but to get a complete grasp of his character's routine before the war and all routes.

You mean the choices where he does something stupid and dies because of it? Yeah I would kinda argue that, but I wouldn't say not skillful or trained at all, but simply not skillful enough. That he just made a single mistake and got punished for it (or was just unlucky). I mean in the end each Dead End is technically only one bad decision. And really in a lot of fights it's actually the state of the mind that matters a lot, not just the skill. He could have just not been in a good enough state of mind that day.

As for the rest, I certainly agree that Sakura's love had a basis to start off with. I don't think Rin's was based on awe or infatuation but rather that close bond that forms when two allies work together. Saber's however was most certainly that. Nasu even said it himself that it's one of those Boy Meets Girl things. He loves that trope.

[Shadow5YA]

It's kind of difficult to prove which girl belongs with Shirou as the canon pairing because the basis of an eroge with multiple choices is that you can choose who you want.

You can claim Shirou liked Sakura and say his feelings were always there, but at the same time I can claim that Shirou liked Saber just as much in Fate and Rin in UBW, and the other girls were just "in the way". An eroge is existentialist by nature: by making one choice of events, you deny the rest. Unless Nasu comes out and states what is noncanon, there is no way to know which is the main couple.

[Cherry_Lover]

Shirou was already in love with Sakura. He had to realize it. In Fate, he got distracted by Saber. In UBW, by Rin. He pushed Sakura away for her own safety, so those feelings never bloomed. If you go and play those options to talk to Sakura, you can see he (before the war starts) have strong hints of infatuation (he's kind of dense).

Had there be no war at all, the only logical road is towards Sakura. So Rin and Saber depended more on the circumstances of the War than Sakura did in the romantic department.

Well, whilst I agree entirely that Shirou is essentially already in love with Sakura, I'm not sure a relationship would have developed were it not for HF, simply because Shirou is too dense to notice and Sakura is quite deliberately avoiding a relationship, because she knows how much danger Shirou would be in if he discovered her true situation (which a relationship would ultimately make inevitable).

I wouldn't call a needy girl with a traumatic past full of abuse symbolic of a normal life. In fact, Shirou's relationship with Sakura would be even farther from reality than his relationship with Saber or Rin.

Yes, but Shirou doesn't know that.

A "realistic" person must know when to give and take.

Yes. And, when you're feeling seriously "ill", desperately trying to avoid losing control of your mind (due to Angra Mainyu and the souls that the Grail absorbs) and are imprisoned by a man who can kill you with a thought, that's probably a reasonable time to "take"....

While it's true that Shirou's goals in Fate and UBW were impossible to fulfill, at least Saber and Rin made an effort to make sure he took care of himself and didn't die from giving too much. My problem with Sakura is that all she does is take and accept Shirou's love but does not give anything in return.

Erm, what? Sakura makes every effort to ensure that Shirou "takes care of himself", and she tries her hardest to keep him safe. It's just that she isn't as powerful as Saber, or even Rin, so she can't keep him safe. Even more so because the enemy he's fighting is someone who has total control over her.

You see Shirou's body slowly breaking down from the battles in HF, and Sakura does little to ease his weariness.

Well, then, if you think what she did is so bad, what should she have done...? What actions would you have had her take that wouldn't have made things worse?

This I agree with... The relationship was extremely one sided with the only comfort Sakura gave was comfort a wife gives to his husband and that he could have gotten from anyone if there was anyone else.

It was one-sided in the route, yes, but that's because Sakura desperately needs help. There's absolutely nothing wrong with taking help from someone when you need that help. And, besides, Sakura did everything she could to discourage Shirou from helping her.

After the route, when Sakura is able to stand on her own two feet again, she will be quite able to give him back everything she gave him. Indeed, given that he was apparently quite seriously ill for the best part of the year following HF True (he dropped down a year in school) due to not having a proper body and Sakura took care of him, I'd say she already did.

I remember having this argument with Cherry Lover before. In my opinion, I don't think Shirou is already in love with Sakura unless you make those choices to talk to Sakura before the war starts. I think the Shirou who doesn't choose to talk to Sakura and the Shirou who does are two slightly different characters. Otherwise, there's no real reason why Shirou didn't grow an attachment to Saber as much as he did at the start of Fate. In the start of the Fate route, Shirou saw Saber getting all banged up by Berserker and didn't want that to happen again. In Heaven's Feel he saw the same thing and yet had no compucture in going out on patrols with her and letting her fight.

Sorry, but that's a completely non-sensical interpretation of the FSN story. They have the same backstory with the same characters acting the same way, and it's even possible to get most of the way onto the HF route and then back out of it. Further, the scenes which make it clear that Shirou is already essentially in love with Sakura are (IIRC) common to all routes, or at least some of them are. It's obvious from the format (you start from the same point) that the routes are supposed to have identical backstories with Shirou feeling the same way in all routes.

You have zero evidence for your assertion, and it does not make the slightest bit of sense. As for Saber not going on patrol, maybe it was because he was interested in Sakura more, because the scenes which you have to view to get onto the HF route in the first place make him more aware of his interest. That doesn't imply that he started from a different situation.

Exactly. If you choose the Sakura choices.

What if you choose one of the Sakura choices and not the others...?

I don't think you can fall out of love that easily. If that's the case then whatever love Shirou had for Sakura I wouldn't call very substantial.

What's to say he did? It's quite possible to love more than one person, and his relationship with Sakura post-Fate doesn't seem to have changed significantly.

Indeed in HF Shirou did in fact have more awareness of Sakura. That's because he chose more Sakura choices. And he chose more Sakura choices because he was already naturally gravitating towards her. If he doesn't choose those choices, then it shows he wasn't gravitating towards her beforehand, which means there's nothing in the way of her falling in love with Saber or Rin.

Erm, what? Where the hell do you get this logic from...?

Those choices are given in Fate too but he didn't taken them. That's what I'm saying.

You can take some of them without ending up on HF....

The one who does take them is different to the one who doesn't.

Evidence, please....

It seems highly unlikely to me that Shirou could have such differing views of Sakura and yet live an essentially identical life up to that point.

Whatever kind of balance (for lack of a better term) she had found pre-war allowed her to spend the time she did with Shirou and Taiga, while still not triggering any overt reaction from Zouken. (Whether he held any private thoughts one way on the other about what she was doing, Sakura would have been loath to see things develop any further, for fear of what would then befall Shirou at that point.)

Well, I'd imagine Zouken would be delighted for Sakura to find a guy to produce an heir. I'm pretty sure, though, that he would have absolutely no intention of letting that guy have any kind of freedom. Futher, Sakura knew full well that if Shirou found out the truth of her situation, he would almost certainly get himself killed trying to rectify it, especially pre-war.

Eeehhh, I'm gonna have to play those three days again but I don't see much evidence of Shirou slowly becoming smitten with her unless we make those Sakura choices.

What if you make some of them, and not the others...?

And I also think those choices were more chances for him to realize his attraction. But I also think he only has that attraction in the first place if he makes those choices. Those choices determine Shirou's character retroactively. If he makes the Sakura choices, then he was already gravitating towards her and those Sakura choices in turn reinforce that. But if he doesn't then there wasn't an attraction to begin with.

Erm, what?

How the hell can making a choice decide something retroactively...? And without changing anything else in the backstory?

That does not make the slightest bit of sense....

[Haak]

Sorry, but that's a completely non-sensical interpretation of the FSN story. They have the same backstory with the same characters acting the same way, and it's even possible to get most of the way onto the HF route and then back out of it. Further, the scenes which make it clear that Shirou is already essentially in love with Sakura are (IIRC) common to all routes, or at least some of them are. It's obvious from the format (you start from the same point) that the routes are supposed to have identical backstories with Shirou feeling the same way in all routes.

The key word there was most. In the end it’s obvious from the format that you need to make certain choices to get into certain routes:
http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/1802275/flowchart-pdf-march-13-2010-9-57-pm-232k?da=y

To be more specific as the flow chart suggests you need 3 or more points, so you are definitely wrong. Those first three days are different between HF and the others. This is undeniable.


You have zero evidence for your assertion, and it does not make the slightest bit of sense. As for Saber not going on patrol, maybe it was because he was interested in Sakura more, because the scenes which you have to view to get onto the HF route in the first place make him more aware of his interest. That doesn't imply that he started from a different situation.
Saber’s thing was one of my main pieces of evidence (the fact that you need to make certain choices being the other). It would be better if you made blunt dismissive assessments about by interpretations after you addressed all of my points. Otherwise it’s just flame baiting.

Indeed the reason he lets Saber go on patrol is because he is already interested in Sakura more. I suppose you could say that choosing those scenes causes Shirou to become more aware of his interest. You have zero evidence for this. You even put a “maybe” in there which is pretty rare for a blunt dismissive person such as yourself.


What if you choose one of the Sakura choices and not the others...?

In my opinion a person’s whims says a lot about a person’s character. If Shirou were to make a lot of whims that involve being with Sakura then that would suggest to me a natural gravitation that he probably doesn’t realise. One or two whims could be counted as coincidence or it could be as you say. It’s an interpretation. I make no pretense. I don’t have any evidence for my interpretation and neither do you. Ultimately it’s up to you.

What's to say he did? It's quite possible to love more than one person, and his relationship with Sakura post-Fate doesn't seem to have changed significantly.

I don’t know. Why don’t you ask Thess since he’s the one who said it? You’re right in doesn’t seem as if his relationship with Sakura has changed all that much post Fate. I think what Thess was saying is that the romantic development was halted so naturally it would be the same. It’s really better if you ask him.


Erm, what? Where the hell do you get this logic from...?

It’s the whole “whim” thing. See above


You can take some of them without ending up on HF....

You don’t need to be so redundant you know. I’m not the type that needs every single post addressed in order to be convinced. If you’ve covered the point already in one of my previous posts then there’s no need to cover it again just because it’s in another post.


Evidence, please....

It seems highly unlikely to me that Shirou could have such differing views of Sakura and yet live an essentially identical life up to that point.

Differing views are required on Shirou’s part to make some of the choices in HF. What about Shirou in MoS. How did that happen if everything was identical up until that point? Why the difference? In the end it’s not that differing anyway at least not from my interpretation. It’s the difference between little to no attraction and a natural gravitation.


Erm, what?

How the hell can making a choice decide something retroactively...? And without changing anything else in the backstory?

That does not make the slightest bit of sense....

Let me try and summarise everything and explain it again and hopefully it will be clearer (we had this argument before and I don’t remember you being so confused about this). It’s not a single choice just to be clear. Shirou has to make enough choices to get into HF. If he does that then those choices show that Shirou already had an attachment to begin with. These are mere whims and the fact that he makes a lot of Sakura ones rather than anything else suggests a natural gravitation to begin with. It doesn’t change anything else in the backstory because it doesn’t need to. We’re talking about a small subconscious difference perception akin to what made HF Shirou and MoS Shirou. Is that clear enough?

[Cherry_Lover]

To be more specific as the flow chart suggests you need 3 or more points, so you are definitely wrong. Those first three days are different between HF and the others. This is undeniable.

And what happens if you only get two of those points? You end up on Fate or UBW. If your logic was valid, then going part-way down that route should lead to him displaying different levels of affection towards Sakura throughout the rest of the game.

Also, at least one of the choices you need to make to get onto HF isn't really all that "Sakura-centric". You get to choose to make a side-dish, and (whilst the description does include "since Sakura's coming), it's not really strongly related to her. But, as a result, she sees the bruise you have a day earlier, which changes events substantially. Similarly, choosing to walk Sakura home (which you can do prior to finishing UBW and Taiga jumps in instead of you, preventing all the other Sakura options from being given) isn't really a "romantic" gesture, it's just something you'd do to protect a friend.

You are, of course, right that you need to make certain choices to get onto the HF route, but the reason for that is that those choices make Shirou more aware of his feelings for Sakura and, more importantly, make Zouken aware of Shirou. That allows Zouken to activate her as a Grail, which is why you need to walk Sakura home on the first day for HF to happen.

If your logic was correct, then just offering to walk her home should lead to the HF route, even if Taiga jumps in and says she'll do it, because it shows the same level of concern for Sakura either way.

Saber’s thing was one of my main pieces of evidence (the fact that you need to make certain choices being the other).

What, you mean the "piece of evidence" that actually proves nothing?

Indeed the reason he lets Saber go on patrol is because he is already interested in Sakura more. I suppose you could say that choosing those scenes causes Shirou to become more aware of his interest.

Well, there are multiple explanations, and I've not read that scene for some time, so I can't say for sure. But, regardless, that is not in any way "proof" of your interpretation.

You have zero evidence for this.

Which is exactly the same amount of evidence as you have, so....

Differing views are required on Shirou’s part to make some of the choices in HF. What about Shirou in MoS. How did that happen if everything was identical up until that point? Why the difference? In the end it’s not that differing anyway at least not from my interpretation. It’s the difference between little to no attraction and a natural gravitation.

I can accept the idea that minor changes in his thought processes cause divergences between the different routes. However, "I love Sakura" vs. "I have no attraction to her" is not a minor difference, especially when you can obtain most of the "wow, Sakura is attractive" scenes and not follow the HF route.

Let me try and summarise everything and explain it again and hopefully it will be clearer (we had this argument before and I don’t remember you being so confused about this). It’s not a single choice just to be clear. Shirou has to make enough choices to get into HF. If he does that then those choices show that Shirou already had an attachment to begin with. These are mere whims and the fact that he makes a lot of Sakura ones rather than anything else suggests a natural gravitation to begin with. It doesn’t change anything else in the backstory because it doesn’t need to. We’re talking about a small subconscious difference perception akin to what made HF Shirou and MoS Shirou. Is that clear enough?

But that doesn't make sense, because having feelings that differ that much would cause him to act differently before the war, too.

[Thess]

You mean the choices where he does something stupid and dies because of it? Yeah I would kinda argue that, but I wouldn't say not skillful or trained at all, but simply not skillful enough. That he just made a single mistake and got punished for it (or was just unlucky). I mean in the end each Dead End is technically only one bad decision. And really in a lot of fights it's actually the state of the mind that matters a lot, not just the skill. He could have just not been in a good enough state of mind that day.

I'm specifically speaking of a routine day (Dojo training or Cooking with Sakura). Neither of those options are about anything, there wasn't any punishment, it was to know Shirou Emiya before the war begins (the very first day).

As for the rest, I certainly agree that Sakura's love had a basis to start off with. I don't think Rin's was based on awe or infatuation but rather that close bond that forms when two allies work together. Saber's however was most certainly that. Nasu even said it himself that it's one of those Boy Meets Girl things. He loves that trope.

Nasu loves many troupes (Sakura can be the Mad Scientist/Magus' Beautiful Daughter). Anyway, Rin was Shirou's idol. He certainly admired her first, then became her friend second. Also both Saber and Rin were Shirou's mentors in something (sword and magic), so there's some bit of teacher/student there (kinky).

[Haak]

And what happens if you only get two of those points? You end up on Fate or UBW. If your logic was valid, then going part-way down that route should lead to him displaying different levels of affection towards Sakura throughout the rest of the game.

I’ll repeat what I said: Shirou’s choices were mere whims. The amount required to set HF is enough to say there must be some gravitation towards her already but anything below that could be counted as coincidence. Now obviously in real life there’s no set line like that but since this VN uses flags and such the set lines are already in place anyway...


Also, at least one of the choices you need to make to get onto HF isn't really all that "Sakura-centric". You get to choose to make a side-dish, and (whilst the description does include "since Sakura's coming), it's not really strongly related to her. But, as a result, she sees the bruise you have a day earlier, which changes events substantially. Similarly, choosing to walk Sakura home (which you can do prior to finishing UBW and Taiga jumps in instead of you, preventing all the other Sakura options from being given) isn't really a "romantic" gesture, it's just something you'd do to protect a friend.

It doesn’t matter if it turns out to be “Sakura-centric” or not. It’s just a subconscious natural gravitation towards someone. Being with her is enough.
The only thing this proves, if at all, is that these choices don’t make Shirou more aware of his feelings...


You are, of course, right that you need to make certain choices to get onto the HF route, but the reason for that is that those choices make Shirou more aware of his feelings for Sakura and, more importantly, make Zouken aware of Shirou. That allows Zouken to activate her as a Grail, which is why you need to walk Sakura home on the first day for HF to happen.
If that’s what you want to believe then I’m not stopping you. Fyi, I also think that’s one of the reasons...


If your logic was correct, then just offering to walk her home should lead to the HF route, even if Taiga jumps in and says she'll do it, because it shows the same level of concern for Sakura either way.
Let me repeat: I’m talking about a natural gravitation towards her. It doesn’t necessarily have to do with concern. It’s just that Shirou has enough whims centred on being around Sakura.


What, you mean the "piece of evidence" that actually proves nothing?

If you want to be a dick about it then I won't reply you know. I'll repeat what I said: It would be better if you made blunt dismissive assessments about by interpretations after you addressed all of my points. Otherwise it’s just flame baiting. It doesn't matter if my argument was the greatest man ever conceived or just insane troll logic. I'm asking you not to be so disrespectful of my interpretations. How would you like it if I said I think your interpretations silly, overly Sakura obsessive and narrow-minded? You're coming across as needlessly antagonistic again.


Well, there are multiple explanations, and I've not read that scene for some time, so I can't say for sure. But, regardless, that is not in any way "proof" of your interpretation
Which is exactly the same amount of evidence as you have, so....

You’re the one who brought up the term evidence so if you’re butt hurt about it then you only have yourself to blame. I suppose I really shouldn’t have half accepted it like I did and should’ve just throw it back at your face the first time, but i did deny it in any case. I’ll repeat myself since this didn’t get through to you the first time: It’s an interpretation. I make no pretense. I don’t have any evidence for my interpretation and neither do you. Ultimately it’s up to you.

I said this to make it clear that evidence is not the correct term to use here. If it’s not clear to you know then it should be.


I can accept the idea that minor changes in his thought processes cause divergences between the different routes. However, "I love Sakura" vs. "I have no attraction to her" is not a minor difference, especially when you can obtain most of the "wow, Sakura is attractive" scenes and not follow the HF route.

But that doesn't make sense, because having feelings that differ that much would cause him to act differently before the war, too.

So HF Shirou and MoS Shirou is not a minor difference either? I’ll keep that mind.

Also you’re straw manning me. The difference is not “No attraction” to “love”. The difference is a subconscious gravitation to no gravitation. That’s not a big difference. It's not like it's completely illogical either. Remember that Nasu has done this before with Tsukihime. In that game it wasn't even subtle about it. You actually got to choose what girl you were thinking most about before going back.


I'm specifically speaking of a routine day (Dojo training or Cooking with Sakura). Neither of those options are about anything, there wasn't any punishment, it was to know Shirou Emiya before the war begins (the very first day).

Oh right so you’re saying that by my logic if he doesn’t choose to train at the dojo is shows he isn’t trained at all?

But that’s not what I’m saying at all. Remember I’m not just talking about signle choices. It’s the fact that you have to choose many Sakura choices and the fact that he does it on mere whims suggests a natural gravitation beforehand. The equivalent of that for the dojo choice isn’t possible because there’s no more than one dojo choice (if he was always choosing some other random thing instead of training then I would certainly say he seems to have some natural repulsion of the dojo) but if there was then I suppose that would simply suggest he’d rather be with Sakura than train. That’s all.

[Vena]

I'm going to ask in here instead of the episode thread for F/Z, where the discussion on Gilgamesh started and then went to me asking about Gil vs. FS/N Archer, so that I talk more openly and ask a better worded question.

To summarize, the question revolves around whether or not Archer would be a natural counter to serious!Gil. I was told that Archer cannot copy Ea, so I'm fine with that, and that rules out Archer's suicide method that he could have used against Saber by tracing Excalibur and suicide-exploding with it. But, now I'm left wondering if Archer can or cannot use Avalon. In the game he uses Rho Aias as his shield, so I am unsure if he can or cannot use Avalon or if it would just have cost him too much mana in his fight with Lancer to be effective. I guess this will basically be a question of which Shirou turns into EMIYA, because only one of the three routes has Shirou lose Avalon, and in all other routes he should be able to perfectly project it because its been bound to him for so long, or that is my understanding at least. Even if he doesn't have Avalon, I was also under the impression that because of how long Shirou and it were merged, that Shirou could trace it perfectly just that it would cost a large amount of mana.

TLDR: Can Archer use Avalon?

If he can... isn't he sort of hax with a proper mage fueling him?

[Thess]

I'm going to ask in here instead of the episode thread for F/Z, where the discussion on Gilgamesh started and then went to me asking about Gil vs. FS/N Archer, so that I talk more openly and ask a better worded question.

To summarize, the question revolves around whether or not Archer would be a natural counter to serious!Gil. I was told that Archer cannot copy Ea, so I'm fine with that, and that rules out Archer's suicide method that he could have used against Saber by tracing Excalibur and suicide-exploding with it. But, now I'm left wondering if Archer can or cannot use Avalon. In the game he uses Rho Aias as his shield, so I am unsure if he can or cannot use Avalon or if it would just have cost him too much mana in his fight with Lancer to be effective. I guess this will basically be a question of which Shirou turns into EMIYA, because only one of the three routes has Shirou lose Avalon, and in all other routes he should be able to perfectly project it because its been bound to him for so long, or that is my understanding at least. Even if he doesn't have Avalon, I was also under the impression that because of how long Shirou and it were merged, that Shirou could trace it perfectly just that it would cost a large amount of mana.

TLDR: Can Archer use Avalon?

If he can... isn't he sort of hax with a proper mage fueling him?

Archer can't use Avalon (it's established you need a connection to Saber for that. He doesn't have any). This has been answered by Nasu already. That's why he traces Rho Aias, instead. I suppose that Archer could win if he teams up with Bazett as his Master- maybe. As soon as Ea came out, he'll be dead.

Serious!Gilgamesh > everyone else in the fifth and fourth war (but he'll never be serious, outside of extraordinary circumstances or people like Iskander), although some of the new godmods from Extra (Nero comes to mind, she can do whatever bs she wants unless she has a headache) or Apocrypha (David and Karna in particular) could fight a serious Gilgamesh. Obviously there is also Arthuria with Avalon. Still, I don't know how far that would go (while she will be shielded of damage, if Gilgamesh knew about the shield, he would use Ea more smartly. It IS already more powerful than Excalibur).

Masters are a huge factor here as well. Lancer would have won the 5th War if Bazett didn't get trolled by Kotomine before it began, for instance. Saber and Rider (Iskandar and Medusa) are both affected under Masters like Shirou, Waver and Shinji, etc.

[Vena]

Archer can't use Avalon (it's established you need a connection to Saber for that. He doesn't have any). This has been answered by Nasu already. I suppose that Archer could win if he teams up with Bazett as his Master- maybe. As soon as Ea came out, he'll be dead.

I don't really care about the serious!Gil thought anymore, I'm fine with him winning at everything forever. I was just wondering about Avalon because I was under the impression that Shirou could project it even without connections to Saber because of how long he and it had been merged, allowing him to bypass the restriction to Saber, so thanks for clearing that up. I didn't know it was already answered by Nasu. Thanks. :D

[Thess]

I don't really care about the serious!Gil thought anymore, I'm fine with him winning at everything forever. I was just wondering about Avalon because I was under the impression that Shirou could project it even without connections to Saber because of how long he and it had been merged, allowing him to bypass the restriction to Saber, so thanks for clearing that up. I didn't know it was already answered by Nasu. Thanks. :D

No. He can't, apparently. Since it's a weapon connected to Saber in particular and only to her (bestowed by the fairies or something). It can happen only when she's around and there's a 'connection' (like the contract). Otherwise it's useless, according to him (Nasu was asked why Archer didn't trace it instead of Rho Aias), IIRC.

I suppose there's Fragarach, but we don't see Gil or Shirou or Archer ever using it if they have it stored somewhere (probably they don't have it since it's connected specially like a virus in Bazett's bloodline?).

[Vena]

No. He can't, apparently. Since it's a weapon connected to Saber in particular and only to her (bestowed by the fairies or something). It can happen only when she's around and there's a 'connection' (like the contract). Otherwise it's useless, according to him (Nasu was asked why Archer didn't trace it instead of Rho Aias), IIRC.

That's fine, I had always wondered why he'd used Rho Aias if he had Avalon, though I had assumed, much like with Excalibur, that he wouldn't have had the mana to use not that it would have had utterly no effect. Nasu's word is final though, so that's that.

If he had had Avalon, I cannot imagine what would have ever possibly been able to stop Rin/Archer in the 5th Grail War. He'd be invincible to any attack with UBW to spam death from the skies. :heh:

I suppose there's Fragarach, but we don't see Gil or Shirou or Archer ever using it if they have it stored somewhere (probably they don't have it since it's connected specially like a virus in Bazett's bloodline?).

I was under the impression that Fragarach was a divine item from a curse, so it wouldn't be in GoB nor would it be traceable to be inside of UBW. Maybe if Bezett was Archer's master, then Archer would be able to envision the plans and make it but otherwise it would be just as restricted as Ea, Excalibur, or any other divine weapon.

[Thess]

That's fine, I had always wondered why he'd used Rho Aias if he had Avalon, though I had assumed, much like with Excalibur, that he wouldn't have had the mana to use not that it would have had utterly no effect. Nasu's word is final though, so that's that.

If he had had Avalon, I cannot imagine what would have ever possibly been able to stop Rin/Archer in the 5th Grail War. He'd be invincible to any attack with UBW to spam death from the skies. :heh:

Well, not really...

You can kill Rin. That's why I say the Master is also a factor.

I was under the impression that Fragarach was a divine item from a curse, so it wouldn't be in GoB nor would it be traceable to be inside of UBW. Maybe if Bezett was Archer's master, then Archer would be able to envision the plans and make it but otherwise it would be just as restricted as Ea, Excalibur, or any other divine weapon.

LOL. Bazett as Master with anyone but freakin' Avenger as Servant is too goddamn hax, that's why the Kotomine backstab needed to happen or there wouldn't be a plot. :heh: She hunts magi and dead apostles, so none of the Masters in the fifth war stand a chance (except Kuzuki, I guess, but only during the first fight).

I remember that Rin did a spittake in Ataraxia epilogue when Bazett introduced herself and dragged Shirou out to tell OMG WATCH YOUR MOUTH SHE'LL KILL US ALL!!1! Meanwhile, Bazett and Saber were being bros and insulting Sakura's tea-making skills inside.

[Vena]

LOL. Bazett as Master with anyone but freakin' Avenger as Servant is too goddamn hax, that's why the Kotomine backstab needed to happen or there wouldn't be a plot. :heh: She hunts magi and dead apostles, so none of the Masters in the fifth war stand a chance (except Kuzuki, I guess, but only during the first fight).

Trained killer vs. a bunch of kids... seems fair. It'd be like replacing Shirou with Kiritsugu. :p But, if Archer could trace Fragarach by being Bazett's servant... now that would be hax, as I said in the forum thread. :heh:

[Thess]

Trained killer vs. a bunch of kids... seems fair. It'd be like replacing Shirou with Kiritsugu. :p But, if Archer could trace Fragarach by being Bazett's servant... now that would be hax, as I said in the forum thread. :heh:

She's different than Kiritsugu (who uses technology mostly), Bazett uses runic magic to kill (which under Cuchulainn, she would have trained further), she's a haxxer one (since Kiritsugu can't take down Servants as she can). I recall that a clean punch from her would decapitate someone and can speed up to 80kh/h or so. Yeah, very fair. :uhoh:

Bazett's honorable nature balances it. Sure, she's ruthless as heck when she has an objective, but she's not a dirty player as Kiritsugu can be. Avenger is, so it balances her.

Poor Lancer. He won the Master lottery (hot, Irish, young woman who adooooooores him and can team up with and her wish was about him) and then he was usurped his victory. Guess it can't be helped, being a Lancer and all.

At least she's not overkill as her Prisma Illya version yet.

[Vena]

She's different than Kiritsugu (who uses technology mostly), Bazett uses runic magic to kill (which under Cuchulainn, she would have trained further), she's a haxxer one (since Kiritsugu can't take down Servants as she can). I recall that a clean punch from her would decapitate someone and can speed up to 80kh/h or so. Yeah, very fair. :uhoh:

Kiritsugu is more of an assassin, I see Bazett more like an amazonian. It'd be an interesting fight between the two of them, assuming it wasn't a fist fight. :heh:

Poor Lancer. He won the Master lottery (hot, Irish, young woman who adooooooores him and can team up with and her wish was about him) and then he was usurped his victory. Guess it can't be helped, being a Lancer and all.

Can't help but feel bad for Lancer through the whole story. Has the perfect master stolen from him, he does everything against his own will, and ultimately either has to kill himself or gets killed off in an unceremonious way. At least he gets his revenge in UBW-route and goes out like a champ. His runic magic with Bazett would have made them a damn near unstoppable team, maybe even against serious!Gil. :heh:

Gae Bolg vs. Ea, what exactly happens there? Gae Bolg is pretty damn fast, can Ea fire off in time?

[mAc Chaos]

Lancer/Bazett VS Saber/Rin

who wins!

[Thess]

Kiritsugu is more of an assassin, I see Bazett more like an amazonian. It'd be an interesting fight between the two of them, assuming it wasn't a fist fight. :heh:

Both are magi killers, only that they use different methods (so is Kotomine). What gives Bazett an edge is that she can defeat Servants during special circumstances, while Kiritsugu can only target Masters (although her Illya manga self gets overhax upgraded into being Servant-hunter level -she's compared as Berserker class in sheer strength :heh:).

Can't help but feel bad for Lancer through the whole story. Has the perfect master stolen from him, he does everything against his own will, and ultimately either has to kill himself or gets killed off in an unceremonious way. At least he gets his revenge in UBW-route and goes out like a champ. His runic magic with Bazett would have made them a damn near unstoppable team, maybe even against serious!Gil. :heh:

Gae Bolg vs. Ea, what exactly happens there? Gae Bolg is pretty damn fast, can Ea fire off in time?

His stats are lowered as heck too thanks to Kotomine, he's also given a command to fight everyone without defeating them (poor Lancer).

Ea would win, but Bazett would have Fragarach'ed Gil, I think. Gilgamesh isn't really formally part of the 5th Grail War, anyway?

[DezoPenguin]

Speaking as one with only secondhand knowledge, just how did Kotomine manage to kill Bazett anyway? I mean, even if she isn't "haxx" to Prisma Illya levels, she's still scary-tough. And where was Lancer while it was happening, anyway?

[Vena]

Both are magi killers, only that they use different methods (so is Kotomine). What gives Bazett an edge is that she can defeat Servants during special circumstances, while Kiritsugu can only target Masters (although her Illya manga self gets overhax upgraded into being Servant-hunter level -she's compared as Berserker class in sheer strength :heh:).

She's not bullet proof though, so their fight would be an interesting mind game of cat and mouse. If Kitsurugu can out maneuver and trap her, he'd win, if she can reach him, she'd win.

As for her manga counterpart, it reminds me of the wolverine overpowering that's happened in recently history for the x-men comics. :heh: They just don't know when to stop making things too powerful.

His stats are lowered as heck too thanks to Kotomine, he's also given a command to fight everyone without defeating them (poor Lancer).

Ea would win, but Bazett would have Fragarach'ed Gil, I think. Gilgamesh isn't really formally part of the 5th Grail War, anyway?

Lancer really gets no appreciation for what he had to put up with and was still a decent servant despite all his handicaps. He'd have been a top class Servant with a genuine master and would have probably won the war with Bazett.

So basically it goes like so:
Lancer used Gae Bolg.
Gilgamesh counters with Ea!
Bazett counter-counters with Fragarach! Its super effective!
Gilgamesh fainted.

He's not technically in the war but he does exist in that time, and I'm sure Kotomine could have brought him in to fight off Bazett had he not cut off her arm and such.

Speaking as one with only secondhand knowledge, just how did Kotomine manage to kill Bazett anyway? I mean, even if she isn't "haxx" to Prisma Illya levels, she's still scary-tough. And where was Lancer while it was happening, anyway?

Back stabbed her and cut off her arm. Lancer didn't have time to react and once Kotomine had her arm... well, Lancer couldn't do anything.

[mAc Chaos]

Speaking as one with only secondhand knowledge, just how did Kotomine manage to kill Bazett anyway? I mean, even if she isn't "haxx" to Prisma Illya levels, she's still scary-tough. And where was Lancer while it was happening, anyway?

He was her mentor or something like that, so it would be easy for him to backstab her, like he does everybody else. It's not like he was like YO LET'S HAVE A DUEL.

For people saying Bazett would've helped Lancer beat Gilgamesh, don't forget Kotomine would've been there too.

[Thess]

Speaking as one with only secondhand knowledge, just how did Kotomine manage to kill Bazett anyway? I mean, even if she isn't "haxx" to Prisma Illya levels, she's still scary-tough. And where was Lancer while it was happening, anyway?

Bazett's weakness is that she's gullible as heck around people she likes and trusts (she's all serious, ruthless and businesslike, but really really nice and shy underneath who wishes to have friends). Kotomine befriended her years ago (both met and fought together in their missions). She was basically lonely in the world since she decided to leave the village and Kotomine the only friend she made outside, so she trusted him with her life. He invited her into the Holy Grail War he'll moderate.

Lancer was out scouting? Wasn't this happened in the Church and he can't get in, IIRC? Basically, he backsbatted her, removing her arm. Remember if you torn the arm off with the command seals, the magus would feel as if their nervous system hardwires.

In a real fight, Kirei would lose. He wasn't suicidal. :heh:

Lancer/Bazett VS Saber/Rin

who wins!

First fight that they never met before? Bazett/Lancer for sure. The only way Saber/Rin team can win this if Saber gets Avalon (although Rin is still vulnerable if Saber gets Avalon, Bazett would completely overpower her in a battle). I imagine Rin would order Saber to not fight if Bazett introduces herself, though (she gets white as a ghost to even think in confronting her in Hollow Ataraxia epilogue when she shows up in Shirou's house, that was with Saber, Shirou and Sakura in the same house with her and a lone Bazett). Unlike Gae Bolg, luck seems useless against Fragarach.

[mAc Chaos]

Kotomine survived without his heart though. And he's very strong and has all of his own abilities. I'm not sure if he would lose... but I guess what makes him Kotomine is that he always finds his own way to win.

[Klashikari]

Lancer used Gae Bolg.
Gilgamesh counters with Ea!
Bazett counter-counters with Fragarach! Its super effective!
Gilgamesh fainted.
The funny fact about that is... Gil wouldn't even respond with Ea. Either he would skewer Lancer before the latter would be able to activate Gae Bolg, or Gil would simply avoid Gae Bolg altogether.
Remember that Gil has a ridiculous stats in LCK, so it is extremely likely he will just be unaffected and won't really consider a threat, using GoB spam... which is probably what happened during Fate Route.

[Thess]

Kotomine survived without his heart though. And he's very strong and has all of his own abilities. I'm not sure if he would lose... but I guess what makes him Kotomine is that he always finds his own way to win.

Because Angra Mainyu likes him enough to keep him around, but the problem is that AM likes Bazett even more than him. Disadvantage!

Runic magic (what Lancer uses) seems enough to keep him dead in UBW, Bazett happens to be an expert in that too. She's also faster than Kirei when she fights. But she wasn't fighting him. Who would have seen it coming? He was like her only pal, her host and the mediator? Her guard was down.

The funny fact about that is... Gil wouldn't even respond with Ea. Either he would skewer Lancer before the latter would be able to activate Gae Bolg, or Gil would simply avoid Gae Bolg altogether.

Remember that Gil has a ridiculous stats in LCK, so it is extremely likely he will just be unaffected and won't really consider a threat, using GoB spam... which is probably what happened during Fate Route.

We don't see how that battle went, for one. The injures of Shirou and Saber didn't heal immediately, so it seems they lasted for a while.

Lancer's stats were affected by Kotomine (his stats are higher with Bazett) and a ridiculous command to fight people without defeating them. Lancer also has battle continuation and runic magic to raise the power of his attacks (and use magic). Gil can be cornered (he WAS going to use Ea against freakin' Shirou when he lost his patience). If a mongrel mortal earned that privilege, a fellow demigod could easily earn it.

The moment he does that, the moment he's toast. Luck doesn't affect Fragarach (as we see in how easily it kills Saber in Ataraxia).

[Vena]

The funny fact about that is... Gil wouldn't even respond with Ea. Either he would skewer Lancer before the latter would be able to activate Gae Bolg, or Gil would simply avoid Gae Bolg altogether.
Remember that Gil has a ridiculous stats in LCK, so it is extremely likely he will just be unaffected and won't really consider a threat, using GoB spam... which is probably what happened during Fate Route.

I keep forgetting about Gae Bolg's Luck-weakness, and without him being a threat to Gil Bazett's not going to be able to force him to use Ea in order to allow Fragarach to work. Though, I'd imagine with a competent master (and who can also use Rune Magic), GoB might have been able to be held off with their magic long enough to get near to Gil and force him into hand-to-hand combat, at which he sucks.

Or, we just give EMIYA to Bazett, then Gil really can't win. Fragarach would counter EMIYAs only lack of counter to Ea (the only other way would be to find a way to get Saber to be EMIYAs Master, but that would require Caster's Rule Breaker, and now we might as well involve the whole FS/N cast in making nonsensical hax.)

[mAc Chaos]

Because Angra Mainyu likes him enough to keep him around, but the problem is that AM likes Bazett even more than him. Disadvantage!

That was in HA though wasn't it? So in the Fate route she wouldn't have really formed any bond with him.

[Thess]

I keep forgetting about Gae Bolg's Luck-weakness, and without him being a threat to Gil Bazett's not going to be able to force him to use Ea in order to allow Fragarach to work. Though, I'd imagine with a competent master (and who can also use Rune Magic), GoB might have been able to be held off with their magic long enough to get near to Gil and force him into hand-to-hand combat, at which he sucks.

It can still severely injure Gilgamesh because of the cursed wounds (it doesn't just injure, but it curses it, not as much as Diarmuid). Saber was bruised and the only reason why Lancer didn't finish her is because he couldn't (he had been ordered to fight without defeating by Trollomine). Let's not forget Lancer is a cockroach when comes to fights (he can restore himself, he can even continue fighting without a heart, etc), and his agility/speed are superior to Gil's.

Also Gil's luck under Kotomine is A, not EX.

He'll also provoke him (Lancer is a smartass). If Lancer defeated Saber, then Gilgamesh would probably take out Ea against him. The main problem for Lancer isn't GoB or Ea, but Enkidu (he's a demigod). However, Gilgamesh is also weak against magic and what does Lancer specializes? Yeah, magic. There's a lot of circumstantial factors.

Gilgamesh would still win if he was serious, but he hardly ever is.

That was in HA though wasn't it? So in the Fate route she wouldn't have really formed any bond with him.

I was joking mostly. But if we're talking about a fair confrontation between them, Bazett would still win. The whole "Angra Mainyu is dere for me" is just to rub in. Poor Kirei ;_;

[Klashikari]

The thing is that Fate series portrayed that the difference between 1 rank is enormous: Saber could still fight and recovers slightly despite having B luck.
Therefore, Gil with A rank would receive substantially lowered damage, and I have no idea if his armor is on par with Saber or better.

Also, Agility doesn't exactly mean anything against GoB: the thing is just ridiculous in term of wide range and number of attacks. Gil is nearly the "hard counter" for Lancer.

[Thess]

The thing is that Fate series portrayed that the difference between 1 rank is enormous: Saber could still fight and recovers slightly despite having B luck.
Therefore, Gil with A rank would receive substantially lowered damage, and I have no idea if his armor is on par with Saber or better.

No, her luck makes him avoid her heart, but she's still wounded and the wound doesn't heal (she needs days and so to recover, hell Shirou can't heal his with Avalon until Lancer dies). Saber recovers slowly because of her strong magic resistance. The spear is cursed.

Who has E magic resistance? Yeah, Gilgamesh.

He can spam Lancer with the GoB, but Lancer's godly in battle continuation and recovery. It's one of his abilities. The thing he'll be weak against is Enkidu.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Therefore, Gil with A rank would receive substantially lowered damage, and I have no idea if his armor is on par with Saber or better.

It's not so much the armor itself you have to look out for, but rather what else he's got in the GoB. Noble Phantasms come in forms other than weapons, and I have no doubt he's got various artifacts and relics with defensive properties through the roof in that thing.

Also, Agility doesn't exactly mean anything against GoB: the thing is just ridiculous in term of wide range and number of attacks. Gil is nearly the "hard counter" for Lancer.

Goldie is the "hard counter" to pretty much everything. :heh:

Saber also recovers slowly because of her strong magic resistance. The spear is cursed.

Who has E magic resistance? Yeah, Gilgamesh.

Again, it's not so much what his personal resistance is, as what he can bring out of the GoB to suit the situation. Something like a mirror that reflects all magic damage would make Magic Resistance kinda pointless, wouldn't it?

[Thess]

Again, it's not so much what his personal resistance is, as what he can bring out of the GoB to suit the situation. Something like a mirror that reflects all magic damage would make Magic Resistance kinda pointless, wouldn't it?

That wouldn't work against a cursed wound, though. And this is assuming he takes the battle seriously first. If he had this mirror at his disposal, he would have used it against Shirou's Reality Marble (which is magic). Instead, he jumped and went for Ea when he was pissed off.

[Kuroi Hadou]

That wouldn't work against a cursed wound, though. And this is assuming he takes the battle seriously first.

Only problem with that is the cursed wound lasts only as long as the one who dealt it. The only people we know of that can survive a direct barrage from the GoB is Saber, Shirou (and by extension Archer), and Fate/Zero Berserker. Everyone else would just get blasted into tiny little bits, especially if they managed to score a hit on him. Even considering Goldie's tendency to not go all out, he knows when and how to swat an annoying fly.

[Thess]

Only problem with that is the cursed wound lasts only as long as the one who dealt it. The only people we know of that can survive a direct barrage from the GoB is Saber, Shirou (and by extension Archer), and Fate/Zero Berserker. Everyone else would just get blasted into tiny little bits, especially if they managed to score a hit on him. Even excluding Goldie's tendency to not go all out, he knows when and how to swat an annoying fly.

And it would hurt him and piss him off. He gets irrational.

Shirou and Saber died in the Bad Endings (which are also canon), it's all about the circumstances. Obviously, no one can win against a serious Gilgamesh (not Saber, not Shirou), but we're not contemplating that.

Lancer's got two advantages when facing a GoB spam: he has Disengage stats B (allows him to break away from combat plus the bonus effect of "returning battle conditions to what they were at the beginning of the match" and that's C ranked, imagine B) and he has Battle Continuation (originally A, damn Kotomine, Bazett would rectify this). Plus his runic magic (all the original runes, what is Gil weak against), unfortunately we don't know what all of them do. But they are divine runes by Odin himself...

The major peril from the Gate is Enkidu, IMO. Ea he can counter with Bazett's backup, but Enkidu? No.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Lancer's got two advantages when facing a GoB spam: he has Disengage stats B (allows him to break away from combat plus the bonus effect of "returning battle conditions to what they were at the beginning of the match" and that's C ranked, imagine B) and he has Battle Continuation.

I'm familiar with the skills, yeah. The problem is that the GoB is a game-breaker in every sense of the word. Look at what at it did to Berserker in UBW route, and in Fate route Caster couldn't even teleport away because of the storm of stabby stab. Battle Continuation doesn't do much if you get drilled with dozens of fatal wounds within seconds of one another. The only way to counter Goldie properly, from what we've seen, is to have a way to effectively attack the GoB, excluding a certain skill-set custom-tailored to deal with Servants. And Saber.

The major peril from the Gate is Enkidu, IMO. Ea he can counter with Bazett's backup, but Enkidu? No.

Oh no question here.

[Thess]

I'm familiar with the skills, yeah. The problem is that the GoB is a game-breaker in every sense of the word. Look at what at it did to Berserker in UBW route, and in Fate route Caster couldn't even teleport away because of the storm of stabby stab. Battle Continuation doesn't do much if you get drilled with dozens of fatal wounds within seconds of one another. The only way to counter Goldie properly, from what we've seen, is to have a way to effectively attack the GoB, excluding a certain skill-set custom-tailored to deal with Servants. And Saber.

I don't think GoB is game-breaker, powerful, yes, but not Game Breaker (Ea is, absolutely. Just like Nero's Golden Theater).

How I wish we could have seen the damn Lancer fight. Even if he was really dampened by command seal and Kotomine, it would have been interesting.

[mAc Chaos]

we got trolled

[Vena]

I'm familiar with the skills, yeah. The problem is that the GoB is a game-breaker in every sense of the word. Look at what at it did to Berserker in UBW route, and in Fate route Caster couldn't even teleport away because of the storm of stabby stab. Battle Continuation doesn't do much if you get drilled with dozens of fatal wounds within seconds of one another. The only way to counter Goldie properly, from what we've seen, is to have a way to effectively attack the GoB, excluding a certain skill-set custom-tailored to deal with Servants. And Saber.

Enkidu and protecting Ilya is what beat Berserker in FS/N, Gates of Babylon just sealed the deal by breaking through Herc's God Hand. If it wasn't for Enkidu snaring Berserker and him desperately protecting Ilya with his body from the barrage of GoB, he would have snapped Enkidu and gone to town on Gil and Gates. Herc is a monster, he breaks Enkidu with barely any life left in him to try and save Ilya. Imagine what he would have done without having to protect her. If anyone had a chance of actually going to town on Gil, it was probably Herc and probably if he had not been the Berserker class, since then his other Noble Phantasm would probably have been able to stop GoB, and he'd still have had God Hand... but maybe then he wouldn't be able to break Enkidu. Thoughts?

GoB also losses to UBW, and Gil would lose any fight against Archer if he didn't have Ea, because Archer will beat him in hand to hand combat and UBW will block out and even push back GoB.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Enkidu and protecting Ilya is what beat Berserker in FS/N, Gates of Babylon just sealed the deal by breaking through Herc's God Hand. If it wasn't for Enkidu snaring Berserker and him desperately protecting Ilya with his body from the barrage of GoB, he would have snapped Enkidu and gone to town on Gil and Gates. Herc is a monster, he breaks Enkidu with barely any life left in him to try and save Ilya. Imagine what he would have done without having to protect her. If anyone had a chance of actually going to town on Gil, it was probably Herc and probably if he had not been the Berserker class, since then his other Noble Phantasm would probably have been able to stop GoB, and he'd still have had God Hand... but maybe then he wouldn't be able to break Enkidu. Thoughts?

The only problem with that theory is Berserker also benefited from the stat boost of Rank A Mad Enhancement. Without that, his monstrous strength isn't what it was as a Berserker-class, but he does gain the benefit of the Nine Lives Noble Phantasm. Enkidu played a role, yeah. But without the GoB, there's not really a deal to seal is there? That's the entirety of Goldie's power; even Ea and Enkidu have to come through it, and if Goldie couldn't fire the weapons it's just a glorified armory, isn't it? I'd say his victory was owed more to the GoB than Enkidu.

GoB also losses to UBW, and Gil would lose any fight against Archer if he didn't have Ea, because Archer will beat him in hand to hand combat and UBW will block out and even push back GoB.

This was never in question.

[mAc Chaos]

I'm not sure if Archer would beat Gilgamesh. The only reason Shirou did was because Gilgamesh screwed around. But they can only sustain their UBW barrage for a temporary period of time. All Gilgamesh has to do is keep spamming til they become exhausted.

[Shadow5YA]

Gilgamesh didn't screw around after UBW was summoned. He legitimately was fighting with Shirou and was unable to draw swords from GoB quickly enough.

The problem was that Gil shouldn't have allowed Shirou to use UBW in the first place, and when he did, he should have had Ea ready from the start. In swordplay, however, Gil was clearly losing.

[mAc Chaos]

He wasn't wearing his armor though.

[Vena]

The only problem with that theory is Berserker also benefited from the stat boost of Rank A Mad Enhancement. Without that, his monstrous strength isn't what it was as a Berserker-class, but he does gain the benefit of the Nine Lives Noble Phantasm. Enkidu played a role, yeah. But without the GoB, there's not really a deal to seal is there? That's the entirety of Goldie's power; even Ea and Enkidu have to come through it, and if Goldie couldn't fire the weapons it's just a glorified armory, isn't it? I'd say his victory was owed more to the GoB than Enkidu.

Like I said, I don't know if he can break Enkidu without being the Berserker Class. I don't know if the benefits from the other classes would have helped him overcome Enkidu or if his innate superhuman strength could break Enkidu (I want to say that he may be able to because he breaks the chains when he's almost dead and completely riddled with weapons.). He can be everything but a Caster and an Assassin, he has a lot of possibilities on the table. I'm just working off the fact that Nine Lives could effectively block GoB (though admittedly I don't know the rate of fire on Nine Lives, so it may be slower) which leaves on Ea as a possible treat to Herc and God Hand.

But without Enkidu and protecting Ilya at his back, you're going to have a similar scenario to UBW vs. Berserker if Ea doesn't come into play. Berserker will reach Gilgamesh and he will crush him even if it costs him most of his lives. As for Ea, would that take all of Berserkers lives or just a handful?

This was never in question.

Ahh, I had thought you were building up GoB to be a nigh unbeatable super skill. My mistake. :heh:

I'm not sure if Archer would beat Gilgamesh. The only reason Shirou did was because Gilgamesh screwed around. But they can only sustain their UBW barrage for a temporary period of time. All Gilgamesh has to do is keep spamming til they become exhausted.

(Assuming equally good mana supplies) Gilgamesh, without Ea, is extra-hard countered by EMIYA. There's literally nothing he can do to stop UBW from overpowering GoB and getting himself thoroughly skewered. The events in the UBW route, once UBW is cast, are not him screwing around. It is legitimately serious!Gil getting his ass kicked because he underestimated Shirou, allowed him to cast UBW, and didn't have Ea. Without Ea is he hosed against EMIYA/Shirou.

[Shadow5YA]

He wasn't wearing his armor though.

Armor won't improve his technique.

[Thess]

Guys, guys... what if Gilgamesh (or Nero)* with Bazett as Master join an imaginary Grail War?

*Not necessary the same ones (different copies, y'all).


Which combination of Master/Servant would be have more chances to beat Team Overkill?

Avalon or Plot Armor, not Allowed :P

[mAc Chaos]

(Assuming equally good mana supplies) Gilgamesh, without Ea, is extra-hard countered by EMIYA.

Well, I always assumed GoB takes up no mana to use. It's just there. Whereas every time Emiya has to project something he has to use mana.

Armor won't improve his technique.

Yeah, but it would make it harder for a random lucky swing to lop his arm off before he gets Ea.

[Vena]

Guys, guys... what if Gilgamesh (or Nero)* with Bazett as Master join an imaginary Grail War?

*Not necessary the same ones (different copies, y'all).


Which combination of Master/Servant would be have more chances to beat Team Overkill?

Avalon or Plot Armor, not Allowed :P

How logical does this team have to be? Like can I say, for instance:

Master: Someone with A LOT of mana, let's say Terra (Earth) is made a Master because she's pissed off at us for something or other.
FS/N Caster
- Rule Breaker:
EMIYA
Hercules (any class)
Saber
Iskander
True Assassin
etc

Because I'm pretty sure if I can make that team, I win. :p

Well, I always assumed GoB takes up no mana to use. It's just there. Whereas every time Emiya has to project something he has to use mana.

GoB has a cost to fire the weapons at the very least, I do not know about just drawing from it but I would imagine even that has a cost. That aside, Gilgamesh was being overwhelmed by a mere human with very low mana to begin with, GoB just hands down losses to UBW in a shoot out before mana even becomes an issue, apparently.

[Thess]

Master: Someone with A LOT of mana, let's say Terra (Earth) is made a Master because she's pissed off at us for something or other.

No cheating. Choose one of the Masters in Fate. :P

Caster is a good pick, but would she even be able to use rule breaker that amount of Servants? Or maintain a Berserker...

[Vena]

No cheating. Choose one of the Masters in Fate. :P

Caster is a good pick, but would she even be able to use rule breaker that amount of Servants? Or maintain a Berserker...

You never specified. :p I'll have to think hard on who would be a good master for Caster, especially if she's controlling five or six servants. As for Caster, if she has the mana supply either from a Master or from draining people of their souls or both, I don't think there was an established limit on her abilities to steal and control servants. At the very least we know she can cheat one in, have three under her control at one time, and fuel a Rho Aias. That's a lot. But I'm not too familiar with all these intricate rules to the weapons, so maybe Rule Breaker has some rules that I'm unaware of just from playing the games.

If I'm not allowed to have my super-hacks, just have Caster (FS/N) under Ilya. Hide Ilya. Steal Iskander and EMIYA as Rider and Archer, and I'm pretty sure you're good to go. Ionian equipped with Caliburn? Yes, please. Gil will have to use Ea on Ionian, leaving him open to an attack from UBW. Would be an interesting fight to say the least.

That being said, I've always wanted to see what Hercules could do as another class. His lore isn't quite as old as Gilgamesh but is easily the most renowned of any of the spirits in the game/stories. Wouldn't he have powers rivaling Gil because of this? Or am I overestimated Herc?

[Thess]

You never specified. :p I'll have to think hard on who would be a good master for Caster, especially if she's controlling five or six servants. As for Caster, if she has the mana supply either from a Master or from draining people of their souls or both, I don't think there was an established limit on her abilities to steal and control servants. At the very least we know she can cheat one in, have three under her control at one time, and fuel a Rho Aias. That's a lot. But I'm not too familiar with all these intricate rules to the weapons, so maybe Rule Breaker has some rules that I'm unaware of just from playing the games.

If I'm not allowed to have my super-hacks, just have Caster (FS/N) under Ilya. Hide Ilya. Steal Iskander and EMIYA as Rider and Archer, and I'm pretty sure you're good to go. Ionian equipped with Caliburn? Yes, please. Gil will have to use Ea on Ionian, leaving him open to an attack from UBW. Would be an interesting fight to say the least.

That being said, I've always wanted to see what Hercules could do as another class. His lore isn't quite as old as Gilgamesh but is easily the most renowned of any of the spirits in the game/stories. Wouldn't he have powers rivaling Gil because of this? Or am I overestimated Herc?

Illya, without Sakura working as back-up Grail, would collapse immediately after five Servants are killed. If Illya's not the Grail, I doubt she can maintain all those Servants (it's one or the other).

Iskandar being around is the worst situation, because Gilgamesh would go serious and probably murder Caster first to release his WORTHY ENEMY of that woman's control. He can even hold him with Enkidu for a while, as he releases him (and I can't see Iskandar getting along with Medea at all either, so he would be grateful with a fellow king from releasing him from the witch's control. Since she used Rule Breaker and probably destroyed his real Master? Even worse). One Ea shot destabilizes any Reality Marble (because of the anti world stuff), not only that but if he has backup from Bazett's Fragarach, he doesn't need to focus on the battle (it would kill off any other Servant who would try to defend Caster with trumpcards like UBW... It's not like they would pay attention to Bazett with Gil's spamming blades and shooting ea beams around).

Gil is the strongest of the bunch (that we know in FSN Servants, now Nero and her Golden Theater is such a BS Hax that could easily beat down any NP ever, unless, of course she got one of her timely headaches), but he hardly takes stuff seriously (in Ataraxia and against Iskander we see glimpses of this). In Ataraxia, we also see why he's Chaotic Good.

[Kanon]

I've been wondering lately... What did Gilgamesh do between Fate/Zero and Fate/Stay Night? Are supposed to assume he spent his time drink wine and eating orphans? 10 years is a pretty long time, it's hard to believe he remained idle for so long.

[Klashikari]

I've been wondering lately... What did Gilgamesh do between Fate/Zero and Fate/Stay Night? Are supposed to assume he spent his time drink wine and eating orphans? 10 years is a pretty long time, it's hard to believe he remained idle for so long.
Gilgamesh basically tried all "pleasure" the world could offer, and deemed it to be rotten to the core. That and repleneshing himself with kids souls etc.

[DezoPenguin]

Back stabbed her and cut off her arm. Lancer didn't have time to react and once Kotomine had her arm... well, Lancer couldn't do anything.

He was her mentor or something like that, so it would be easy for him to backstab her, like he does everybody else. It's not like he was like YO LET'S HAVE A DUEL.

For people saying Bazett would've helped Lancer beat Gilgamesh, don't forget Kotomine would've been there too.

Bazett's weakness is that she's gullible as heck around people she likes and trusts (she's all serious, ruthless and businesslike, but really really nice and shy underneath who wishes to have friends). Kotomine befriended her years ago (both met and fought together in their missions). She was basically lonely in the world since she decided to leave the village and Kotomine the only friend she made outside, so she trusted him with her life. He invited her into the Holy Grail War he'll moderate.

Lancer was out scouting? Wasn't this happened in the Church and he can't get in, IIRC? Basically, he backsbatted her, removing her arm. Remember if you torn the arm off with the command seals, the magus would feel as if their nervous system hardwires.

In a real fight, Kirei would lose. He wasn't suicidal. :heh:





Thanks, all of you! So basically it's a case of, even Fragarach is useless against a sneak attack, and once her arm was gone, she was basically in shock from not only the physical damage but the magic-circuit backlash and all she could do was die (except in HA).

[Vena]

Illya, without Sakura working as back-up Grail, would collapse immediately after five Servants are killed. If Illya's not the Grail, I doubt she can maintain all those Servants (it's one or the other).

I'm sure there's a way to get this to work. :heh:

Iskandar being around is the worst situation, because Gilgamesh would go serious and probably murder Caster first to release his WORTHY ENEMY of that woman's control. He can even hold him with Enkidu for a while, as he releases him (and I can't see Iskandar getting along with Medea at all either, so he would be grateful with a fellow king from releasing him from the witch's control. Since she used Rule Breaker and probably destroyed his real Master? Even worse). One Ea shot destabilizes any Reality Marble (because of the anti world stuff), not only that but if he has backup from Bazett's Fragarach, he doesn't need to focus on the battle (it would kill off any other Servant who would try to defend Caster with trumpcards like UBW... It's not like they would pay attention to Bazett with Gil's spamming blades and shooting ea beams around).

You don't need to kill the former master to Rule Break, so there's no need for that. Let's just say Medea buys the servants off of there former masters or something, so that there's no bad blood. :p

As for Ea, it cannot be spammed in quick sequence from what I understand, it does have some charge time to be able to release Enuma Elish, doesn't it? So the idea was basically, have it be forced on Ionian to destabilize it, leaving Gilgamesh open to be overwhelmed by EMIYA's UBW which would not be affected by Fragaranch (he's not going to be using his strongest attack, unless the definition of strongest attack is very strange for EMIYA since he doesn't have a regular NP) nor would it be destabilized since he's not casting the actual marble but using it to spam weapons. My thought process is that, if Ea can be distracted for just long enough, then EMIYA will have the opportunity to overwhelm Gil with UBW vs. GoB, and get close enough to overwhelm him in melee.

Gil is the strongest of the bunch (that we know in FSN Servants, now Nero and her Golden Theater is such a BS Hax that could easily beat down any NP ever, unless, of course she got one of her timely headaches), but he hardly takes stuff seriously (in Ataraxia and against Iskander we see glimpses of this). In Ataraxia, we also see why he's Chaotic Good.

I'm just curious about how the power levels work with him and Herc. I know that Gilgamesh has the oldest legend but Herc is, probably and by today's standards, the most renowned hero in any mythos. He seems underpowered. :p

[Thess]

Thanks, all of you! So basically it's a case of, even Fragarach is useless against a sneak attack, and once her arm was gone, she was basically in shock from not only the physical damage but the magic-circuit backlash and all she could do was die (except in HA).

Yeah. Bazett is usually on her guard up, considering her job. The only exception was Kotomine (and Lancer) because he was her only friend and ally (plus he invited her to damn Holy Grail War). He probably figured out it'll be boring if she finished it in the second day. :heh:

[Kanon]

Gilgamesh basically tried all "pleasure" the world could offer, and deemed it to be rotten to the core. That and repleneshing himself with kids souls etc.

Ah, that's right. I guess that must have kept him busy for quite a while. You know, it sounds like it would make one hell of a spin-off series. Gilgamesh and his wingman Kotomine traveling the world and trying out every kind of pleasurable activities. I'd watch it.

[lightsenshi]

Ah, that's right. I guess that must have kept him busy for quite a while. You know, it sounds like it would make one hell of a spin-off series. Gilgamesh and his wingman Kotomine traveling the world and trying out every kind of pleasurable activities. I'd watch it.

It should be called "Gilgamesh and Kotomine go to jail". :heh:

[Haak]

Kirei & Gil in Harold & Kumar style adventures would be pretty damn hilarious. XD

[aldw]

One of these days they really should make the route that leads to Hollow Ataraxia, whether as a light novel or something, just to see what was going on...

[Cherry_Lover]

I'm going to ask in here instead of the episode thread for F/Z, where the discussion on Gilgamesh started and then went to me asking about Gil vs. FS/N Archer, so that I talk more openly and ask a better worded question.

To summarize, the question revolves around whether or not Archer would be a natural counter to serious!Gil. I was told that Archer cannot copy Ea, so I'm fine with that, and that rules out Archer's suicide method that he could have used against Saber by tracing Excalibur and suicide-exploding with it. But, now I'm left wondering if Archer can or cannot use Avalon. In the game he uses Rho Aias as his shield, so I am unsure if he can or cannot use Avalon or if it would just have cost him too much mana in his fight with Lancer to be effective. I guess this will basically be a question of which Shirou turns into EMIYA, because only one of the three routes has Shirou lose Avalon, and in all other routes he should be able to perfectly project it because its been bound to him for so long, or that is my understanding at least. Even if he doesn't have Avalon, I was also under the impression that because of how long Shirou and it were merged, that Shirou could trace it perfectly just that it would cost a large amount of mana.

TLDR: Can Archer use Avalon?

If he can... isn't he sort of hax with a proper mage fueling him?

Archer is as much of a counter to Serious Gil as anyone is, really. That just happens not to be very much....

Even Saber with Avalon would likely lose if Gil was truly taking her seriously, and certainly if he knew she possessed it.

I'm not sure if Archer would beat Gilgamesh. The only reason Shirou did was because Gilgamesh screwed around. But they can only sustain their UBW barrage for a temporary period of time. All Gilgamesh has to do is keep spamming til they become exhausted.

Yes, but Archer is much stronger than Shirou. Even at only 10% or so of his true power, he was still equal to or better than him.

[lightsenshi]

Even Saber with Avalon would likely lose if Gil was truly taking her seriously, and certainly if he knew she possessed it.

It's my opinion that the reason Gilgamesh ultimately lost to Saber was because she was trying to kill him whereas he wasn't trying to kill her.

[mAc Chaos]

Archer is as much of a counter to Serious Gil as anyone is, really. That just happens not to be very much....

Even Saber with Avalon would likely lose if Gil was truly taking her seriously, and certainly if he knew she possessed it.



Yes, but Archer is much stronger than Shirou. Even at only 10% or so of his true power, he was still equal to or better than him.

If he's that much stronger as far as UBW is concerned, why wouldn't Archer stand a chance against Gilgamesh?

[Vena]

If he's that much stronger as far as UBW is concerned, why wouldn't Archer stand a chance against Gilgamesh?

Because, while he can counter and overpower Gates of Babylon and Enkidu would do next to nothing against him, he has nothing strong enough to stop Ea. Rho Aias might (but I heavily doubt it) be able to deflect it since in HF the four-petal deflected Excalibur (but thats an attack on a completely different level from Enuma Elish), but otherwise he has nothing to use to survive a blast from Ea if serious!Gil uses it off the bat.

If Gil doesn't use it off the bat and allows Archer to overpower him with UBW or to cast UBW in its full, then he'd probably lose much the same was that he lost to Shirou. But that's not serious!Gil. The Fifth Grail was is really mucked up though and the routes have varying power levels to your servants because of all the servant/master switcharoos going on. Rider is pathetic in Fate/UBW, Lancer is handicapped through every single route, Archer doesn't use UBW for some baffling reason in Fate route or just gives up on his goals in HF, Shirou keeps Saber from being good in half of the encounters, Assassin isn't even a real Servant, and on and on.

If you take the servants at their peaks, though, you'd have probably had a lot of strong contenders and a very interesting war.

[Shadow5YA]

If you take the servants at their peaks, though, you'd have probably had a lot of strong contenders and a very interesting war.

Is that even possible in the game? Half the Masters in the game aren't even legitimate magi.

[Vena]

Is that even possible in the game? Half the Masters in the game aren't even legitimate magi.

That's true, but you still have at least four and maybe you could argue that since Caster is a Magi, then she's a valid summoner. :heh: But I was more specifically thinking of the following groups:

Bazett and Lancer
Rin and Archer
Ilya and Berserker
Sakura and Rider
(??)Caster's Original Master and Caster + Assassin

Shirou is technically a magi, albeit a weak one and he can't bring out Saber's true potential...

[Aqua Knight]

I once read an fanfic where Shirou summoned Archer instead of Saber and they were going to use double UBW or something like that.
Pretty crazy idea (throwing aside Archer's desire to kill Shirou).

[Vicious108]

Kiritsugu summoning Archer (EMIYA) sounds like it would have an even large potential for an unstoppable duo of badassery though.

[LostHanyou]

I'm just curious about how the power levels work with him and Herc. I know that Gilgamesh has the oldest legend but Herc is, probably and by today's standards, the most renowned hero in any mythos. He seems underpowered. :p

The mythological Heracles is probably much stronger than any servant in the 5th war too, with myth Gilgamesh probably making a distant second place.

[Thess]

Now let's get real, guys. If Gilgamesh had taken the war seriously, it would be over in a day. Archer can try all he wants, but he'll never able to stand a chance against a real serious Gil. Unless he's a Counter Guardian and that's not even him, but Alaya's will...

Is that even possible in the game? Half the Masters in the game aren't even legitimate magi.

Zero has as legitimate magi such as Kiritsugu, Kayneth and Tokiomi.
FSN has Illya, Bazett, Rin, Zouken, and the original Master of Caster (someone from the Clock Tower I think).

Kotomine's on both.

Guess you can combine them in an AU game: Kiritsugu or Illya, Kayneth, Zouken, Tokiomi or Rin, Kotomine, Bazett and Original Master of Caster.

Waver, Shirou, Sakura, Uryuu, Kuzuki, Shinji, Kariya, etc don't quite qualify because they are either terrible/n00b magus, muggle or half/badly-trained (some with great potential like Sakura wasn't given the push Rin got).