Fate/stay night Game discussion (Warning: Spoilers)

[calorie]

No. It wasn't a simple wet dream. If so then Shirou could have extremely good imagination if he recreates the feeling and everything in his head despite being an innocent virgin.
Actually Rider "recharged herself" at night without Shirou knowing it. Maybe even the dream was created by Rider to keep Shirou sleeping while she's "working".:)
It's somehow obvious from the dream-Rin's rectangular strange pupils(like Rider's).

Wow!!! Are you sure about that, I hadn't the faintest idea that was it?

Shirou is one lucky bastard. :rolleyes:

[willyvereb]

Not exactly.
-Fate: Dragon Scene
-UBW: Mana transfer
-HF:Blood sucking.

In Realta Nua Rider certainly created Shirou's dream and she sucked his blood instead of "doing H-stuff". It's somehow funny. HF has the most H-scenes(actually 4 if I remember well, including the dream-scene, but they replace it with the most boring scenes(except the "Rin-Ayako skinship" :) )

[Aqua Knight]

Did you play Nua?
I wish this mana transfer appeared in the movie...

[willyvereb]

No, but I have informations about it. Even if just little and the CG set is good enough to make somehow reliable assumptions. Unfortunatelly I hardly have any knownledge about japanese language. And there's no translation for Realta Nua. And I guess we would never have.

[kakakka]

I thought Realta Nua was released in English? Oh well, learned something new...

[Aqua Knight]

Shirou's words in UBW chant
" Waiting for one's arrival"
Who was he waiting for?
Because other phrases are understandable.

[kakakka]

I dunno what the official info says about this, but maybe it's one's arrival to hold the swords?

The chant is kind of blacksmith chant. If you made a sword, the next step is to sell it to or give it to a new owner. So "Waiting for one's arrival" might be a prayer for someone worthy to use the swords made.

Just my thoughts.

[kakakka]

Does anybody knows how to access the images from the Visual Game?

[Zwei]

Does anybody knows how to access the images from the Visual Game?

Do you mean in the game? Just go to extras. I'm currently at the arc where I just defeated Rider and had been kidnapped by Beserker's master(her name is so hard)

[kakakka]

I think I worded it wrong.

I mean how do you access the image from the game, excluding accessing it from inside the game (window).

[Aqua Knight]

gogle them?

[Flinch]

Do you mean in the game? Just go to extras. I'm currently at the arc where I just defeated Rider and had been kidnapped by Bererk's master(her name is so hard)

Berek? Do you mean Beserker? If so, it's Illyasviel von Einzbern.

[willyvereb]

Somehow it's hard for me to remember her family name...well, in general I am quite bad with memorising names.
@Zwei: So you've just started to play with the game? What's your impression about it?

[kakakka]

gogle them?

So that's the best answer?

Oh well, looks like no one knows...

Thanks to google anyways

[willyvereb]

Actually there should be some kind of program to extract things. But to be honest: I've never tried to search for something like that. screenshoting the picture from the game worked fine enough.

[calorie]

Actually there should be some kind of program to extract things. But to be honest: I've never tried to search for something like that. screenshoting the picture from the game worked fine enough.

Yeah but it'd be nice to have such a tool rather than have to skip through to the part you want to see. Not everyone has each scene saved (and memorized) at the ready. :p

[willyvereb]

Nope. You have a much easier way...
main menu-extras-gallery
Then you can choose whatever route you want and we have a misc cathegory too. Those containing every picture other than the general backgrounds and the conversation figures.
I meant like this. You open the picture you want then do a screenshot. Tada! We've the actual picture...

[calorie]

I think both kakakka and myself were referring to just those in-game conversation figures and backgrounds which aren't accessable in such way.

[willyvereb]

Well, but then say it that way. You're able to get those via google search I guess...but honestly I hardly had any interest in those. That's why I didn't consider that you're refering to those CG images.

[Zwei]

Somehow it's hard for me to remember her family name...well, in general I am quite bad with memorising names.
@Zwei: So you've just started to play with the game? What's your impression about it?

Out of the like 10 visual novels I finished, It's certainly my 2nd favorite. I need to finish the other 4 endings left now -.-

[orangejuicetang]

After putting it off for months, I've finally decided to play HF. But I have a question. The thing that begins this route is taking Sakura home the first day right? So why didn't it happen in the other routes when I took her home. Apart from you must play through fate/ubw first.

[Zwei]

After putting it off for months, I've finally decided to play HF. But I have a question. The thing that begins this route is taking Sakura home the first day right? So why didn't it happen in the other routes when I took her home. Apart from you must play through fate/ubw first.

Heaven's Feel

(1) I'll go and help Sakura
(1) I'll go and help out the student council
(1) I'll take Sakura home
(2) I'll make one more side dish since Sakura's coming
(2) I'm worried about Sakura

Unlimited Blade Works Route

(2) I'll go and finish my daily routine
(2) I'll go to work
(3) I'll rest
(1) Stop her

Fate Route

(2) I'll go and finish my daily routine
(2) I'll go to work
(3) I'll rest
(2) Don't stop her*

[willyvereb]

You're somewhat right about the HF route, but not UBW. To reach UBW you only need to stop Saber from attacking. To reach HF you need to choose every single choice contains Sakura's name in the first three days.(And if you want a happy ending even after that I advise you to do the same:p...afterall she's the heroine of the route)

HF is the most difficult route. As general rule I advice you to be nice to everyone and trust in Kotomine+avoid Rin putting a Geas on you at that scene.

[Aqua Knight]

I can't understand why people consider HF maybe the worst route.
At least, it has much different plot from 2 first and there's even no date day.
I could say HF could be the best if UBW wasn't so gar and epic.

[willyvereb]

Well, it's really like a different game sometimes. And I really miss the other Servants and a bit more Dark sakura time from it. But it's understandable, because even without it it's always have quite content and it's the longest route.

to 17th warrior: I don't really liked UBW because it had the most plotholes of the 3 routes. Like when Shirou suddenly became faster than Archer and fought ferociously despite him being totally exhausted. It's not Bleach for God's sake!

[Aqua Knight]

I agree and UBW is better in HF only in making money(maybe that's why it can be converted in 90 min and HF can't). I don't think he became faster than Archer but I don't want to argue on points like this because it can turn into a war like in UBW movie thread, which has gone completely off-topic.
And HF is much much creepier somewhere during it's middle part. Also it's less predictable when I played Fate and UBW I knew what was going to happen but HF,well, there were some really great plot twists.

[calorie]

Oh I dunno...I honestly liked every route. Hell, I liked everything about Fate/stay night. :p

The way routes are set up is perfect, the game keeps surprising you more and more until the very end. Whereas Fate route had the most moe moments with Saber and is in many ways classical fighting anime beat-the-bad-guys story, UBW relied more on the inner moral struggles of Shirou. Yes it had a lot of fights as well, but they weren't decided by the technique or power but more like philosophical debates. Of course, those moments when the rules of the F/SN universe were bent in a haxxory way in order for Shirou to win annoyed me a bit, but maybe we could look at it this way: the higher Shirou's conviction went it drained Archer's in a way that would allow Shirou to win that fight. Seeing as how they aren't entities from parallel universes (Archer is a heroic spirit and they live outside those universes in a void/whatchallit), this scenario seems fairly plausible. Heroic spirits are a product of human imagination, I reckon the former self of a servant (Shirou) would have some impact on it based on its perception of reality. He is the source of the legend after all.

Heavens Feel is easily my favorite route, but I must say my memory of it is stained by images of Zouken's worms resembling male reproductive organs, Sakura's awful history and that incest scene with Shinji. Those do leave quite an impact and give the story some weight but they also make it impossible for me to have as much of moe for it as I do for Fate or UBW which are far more linear but more care-free.

[orangejuicetang]

No my question was that in ubw i'm pretty sure I made the choice to take Sakura home. In HF, I made that same choice and I think I got treated to a different scene. Either that, or my memory's a bit blurred, which is entirely possible.

[calorie]

No my question was that in ubw i'm pretty sure I made the choice to take Sakura home. In HF, I made that same choice and I think I got treated to a different scene. Either that, or my memory's a bit blurred, which is entirely possible.

You are correct, the option to take Sakura home plays out differently after you've completed Rin's route, thus allowing you to acquire the sufficient amount of affection points for Sakura and unlock Heavens Feel. Therefore, it is much like the "Stop Her" (Saber vs. Archer) choice that appears after you've completed the Fate route.

I remember choosing to take Sakura home when I first started playing the game and if I recall correctly Fuji-nee doesn't allow this saying it would be inappropriate, offering herself as escort instead. Can't remember how Shirou won the argument in HF though.

[kakakka]

to 17th warrior: I don't really liked UBW because it had the most plotholes of the 3 routes. Like when Shirou suddenly became faster than Archer and fought ferociously despite him being totally exhausted. It's not Bleach for God's sake!
That's one of your "plot holes?" Oh my, Heaven's Feel have those too...

[willyvereb]

The exhausted thing? Well it's not that Serious problem if someone's slowly becoming more like a Heroic Spirit/Sevant like HF Shirou. He slowly fuses with Archer after he released the seal. And before that we get only the "usual Shirou". We never see him being suddenly unbeatable fighter after he just wins a philosophical argument.
Sometimes I wondered if we replace UBW Shirou with Ichigo Kurosaki would it make more sense...
But well, I can't say UBW was bad, just it bugs me if somone makes a clear world filled with reasonable rules then the thing goes like a typical shonen fight like the Archer vs Shirou thing. Man, I can even compare it to the Kenpachi vs Ichigo one(but well, Archer vs Shirou was sure a better mental competition...though zaraki's definietly was awesome on the other). I just don't really like the willpower=real/impossible power kind of things. And UBW sure pulled it off in at least 3 characters(well, more like 2.5). People may can do the impossible by being determined, but not in such spectacular/practical way.
In short I felt forced the outcomes of some fights in UBW. And sometimes the actions too, like Berserker breaking off from Enkidu. Seriously, not even a god can do that. Even if he has awesome determination strenght and power, he's still nothing compared to a god possibly. It was just a forced attempt to make Berserker shine for me. It has no logical explanation how he could do that and there's quite a few similar scenes for UBW Shirou too.
Shirou does outrangeous things every time, but the outcomes could be logically explained and it fits the rules set down in it's world. But there are exceptions...especially in UBW.
HF partially jumps out most of it by introducing new things the rules barely contain any bounds for it. Like Nine Lives, third magic etc...but they at least make sense even with that minor details too. So they aren't violating the rules placed down before.

[Aqua Knight]

Yep, all this.
" I can't even piss my pants because I'm so exhausted" yet he can actually fight and then have sex with Tohsaka...
You can't pull it off on raw willpower...:heh:

[kakakka]

I dunno what the huge deal about willpower.
Sakura used that too (She could have died earlier). Kotomine use that too (He could have died in the forest). Even with slight excuses, they pull of impossibles because of their will power.
Shirou is one of the characters I know that pulls will power to overcome his obstacles in every route.
And please, don't say he pull it off because of Archer's arm. He needs will power to use that arm too.

Also, of course, god can't break the chain. From what I remembered, that chain become more powerful if you used it against divine attributes.
About Berserker, from what (limited) knowledge I have, Herakles is one of hero myths that can make impossible possible. So no surprise for me when he broke that chain.

"I can't even piss my pants because I'm so exhausted" yet he can actually fight and then have sex with Tohsaka...
Which he still did in HF with Sakura, from what I remembered.

[willyvereb]

About Heracles...don't confuse him with Mu La-flagga. He accomplished all 12 of his tasks with somehow rationally and mostly with both witts and luck/divine help. So I don't think that making "impossible possible" thing is that much true to him. With that reasoning almost every single hero is the same. That's partially why they heroes. But still they do it rationally, not by pure "GAR-ness stupidity".
And surviving by willpower or surviving something you absolutely shoudln't by willpower is different, but well it's still explainable with his Reality marble. The thing is unexplainable when he unreasonably gets stronger just because he's now determined to defeat his opponent. No other kind of explanation...just that silly reasoning. That's what I especially hated in UBW. The other is when they obviously drop an idiot-ball on the enemy to make the heroes win. Like what they did with Gilgamesh in UBW. Not to mention they obviously ignored the gap in physical abilties at the last fight(but well, FSN had in every route somehow similar "tweaks" to make win the goods in the last fight...but still UBW was outrangeous because I not even found a normal explanation to those plot errors...)
Don't misunderstand me...I liked the most of UBW, but those were the things pissed me off. And the fact Rin looked the least awesome in her own route despite she had the most of her moments. Sometimes I even wonder if she was more in love with Shirou at the end of HF than in UBW. Maybe because tsunderes are quite bad characters for showing strong affection. Except if they go absolutely dere or something like that.

[kakakka]

don't confuse him with Mu La-flagga
I don't talk mecha dud XD I didn't even think of him, now you remind me....

He accomplished all 12 of his tasks with somehow rationally and mostly with both witts and luck/divine help.
And mostly with luck and divine help....Rational I guess :p

The thing is unexplainable when he unreasonably gets stronger just because he's now determined to defeat his opponent.
I would call it bad if he's half dead, which he isn't. And I think one of the worst thing you can do is make character comparisons between routes like they are (completely) the same. All of them aren't exactly the same.

And the fact Rin looked the least awesome in her own route despite she had the most of her moments.
I don't think she's awesome anyways. (And I say I like tsunderes....) I really wanted to kill her in all routes *ducks from angry fans* (But then, I go to Tiger Dojo if I did, so yeah >_<)

[orangejuicetang]

While Heracles does accomplish some of his 12 task with rationally, he accomplishes quite a few of them simply due to pure strength. I mean, his last task was to bring Cerberus to the surface, which he accomplished without any divine help. Hades did not help him, he merely gave him permission, which was something like "go ahead and try, I won't stop you." This was a person who wrestled with death and won. He cleaned the Augean Stables by switching the course of a river. And the sole reason he succeeded at these impossible tasks was simply because he was "insanely strong." I can't remember one task in which he got divine help.

[kakakka]

And the sole reason he succeeded at these impossible tasks was simply because he was "insanely strong."
One reason I didn't find it surprising he broke that anti-divine chain. I heard he's just insanely strong.

[willyvereb]

Then what about the Hydra? Those flames wasn't from his absolute moe obession with lolis:p...thsoe were a help of a god(or if I remember well a godess)
But well, now that you mention it. He sure did some incredible things just because he's strong beyond comprehension. But it's still rational than suddenly being to superior to somone just because he's found his determination and will to fight at last. Honestly, even the mentioned Ichigo Kurosaki had a somewhat logical explanation to power-up suddenly because of that(thus in his own world making that thing rational)
to Kakka:
wer should compare the Shirou's with other routes. Afterall they diiffer, but they were inicially the same.And even if Shirou has ten times more determination and willpower than Chuck Norris he's still a human(or only a bit different...like his UBW making his body a bit inhuman by keeping him alive at extreme situations and else). He can't beat a Servant in pure physical abilities or even skill.

[kakakka]

Afterall they diiffer, but they were inicially the same.
Yet they change in different pace, being affected by different events, having different motivations. And their development (skill, character wise) when you compared the 3 routes are different. So how UBW Shirou got his skill (how he harness it) and how powerful he is are different from other-route Shirous.

[orangejuicetang]

Then what about the Hydra? Those flames wasn't from his absolute moe obession with lolis:p...thsoe were a help of a god(or if I remember well a godess)
But well, now that you mention it. He sure did some incredible things just because he's strong beyond comprehension. But it's still rational than suddenly being to superior to somone just because he's found his determination and will to fight at last. Honestly, even the mentioned Ichigo Kurosaki had a somewhat logical explanation to power-up suddenly because of that(thus in his own world making that thing rational)

I thought it was because he got his nephew or cousin or w/e sidekick for one adventure to get a burning branch and then use that burning brush to cauterize the wound.

Wait. About the second part, are we talking about Shirou or Beserker here?

[kakakka]

Wait. About the second part, are we talking about Shirou or Beserker here?
Both? :heh:

[willyvereb]

Well, I started talking about Herc then I compared his deeds to that absolutely strange thing Shirou did(the one I've been pissed about and mentioned most of my post in this thread).
Anyways if I remember well Heracles got help in a form of fire caming down from the sky or something like that. But according to a quick look on Wikipedia it probably isn't the official myth.
Well it only explains a bit why Heracles could break off from the Chains of Enkidu.(but still, he never did such an outrangeous thing in his life like that...his strenght was just strenght,extraordinally, but still comprehessible normally...not so overpowered like beating something with purestrenght normally impossible to do in such way. It isn't Dragon Ball)
The thing with Shirou and the idiot-ball with Gilgamesh still bugs me.

[orangejuicetang]

Keep in mind that Herc prob already had A+ strength even without the mad enhancement. With it, he would be even more crazily strong, potentially approaching ex, which simply means can't be measured. And as I have pointed out before, Gilgamesh being arrogant is nothing new. Gilgamesh was just being himself. I didn't really see him act out of character during the fight.

[ecchi-ru]

Wow its weird to think that this thread started 5 and a half years ago.

Many things have changed since then. (Last time there were no translations :D)

[swtrooper42]

And in 5 1/2 years we get:

Fate/stay night
Fate/stay night manga (And one spin-off: Fate/Kaleid Liner Prisma Illya)
Fate/hollow ataraxia
Fate/stay night anime
Fate/zero
Fate/tiger colosseum (and sequel)
Fate/stay night Réalta Nua
Fate/unlimited codes

And now:
Fate/stay night : Unlimited Blade Works.

I love this franchise.

[sirlancerlot]

And in 5 1/2 years we get:

Fate/stay night
Fate/stay night manga (And one spin-off: Fate/Kaleid Liner Prisma Illya)
Fate/hollow ataraxia
Fate/stay night anime
Fate/zero
Fate/tiger colosseum (and sequel)
Fate/stay night Réalta Nua
Fate/unlimited codes

And now:
Fate/stay night : Unlimited Blade Works.

I love this franchise.

Still waiting on the translation for Fate/Hollow Ataraxia. I've read somewhere this translation is going as slow as a snail. I wouldn't be surprised if we get it AFTER the movie comes out. Oh well I can wait.

[kakakka]

It'll come...someday.

I think it'll pretty much a big project to do. There are so many options to take in game compared to the F/SN Visual game. More options = more translating needed (and tweaking too)

[orangejuicetang]

I was playing through the game again recently, and I found a line that basically stated that Shirou considered "a hero is a person who saves people who normally can't be saved". I just found that interesting due to all the definition of what constitutes a hero discussions that have occurred in the fate/stay night section.

[amebasan]

wow...a 5year+ thread and still going.
lots of 'fate' series junkie here...
i think i found a place around here:)

amebasan here!
1st time knowing fate is when the fate/stay night anime came out.
LOVE it.


actually i stumble upon this site cuz i cant seem to play my dl'ed fate stay nightT_T
does the trick 5 years ago still work?
(fate/ unlimited code makes me so wanna play more fate stuff.)




P.S...crush on saber>_<

[OctoberFlames]

Loved the story and all, but there's one thing I don't understand:

Wouldn't a sniper take care of most masters? Armed with a .50/.308 cal rifle, a decent shot with the right training can probably eliminate masters at a range of 1.5-2km.

If you refer to the IRA sniper incidents of 1990 to 1997, it's been pretty well established that snipers can work perfectly well in urban environments. Also, since these are generally regular folks who have zero magical connection, sensing them should be impossible for both masters and servants.

Hiring a non-magical assassin should be the logical choice for any master in the Holy Grail war. A good sniper makes servants obsolete.

[sirlancerlot]

Loved the story and all, but there's one thing I don't understand:

Wouldn't a sniper take care of most masters? Armed with a .50/.308 cal rifle, a decent shot with the right training can probably eliminate masters at a range of 1.5-2km.

If you refer to the IRA sniper incidents of 1990 to 1997, it's been pretty well established that snipers can work perfectly well in urban environments. Also, since these are generally regular folks who have zero magical connection, sensing them should be impossible for both masters and servants.

Hiring a non-magical assassin should be the logical choice for any master in the Holy Grail war. A good sniper makes servants obsolete.

did you only watch the anime?

bc....
True assassin could not be detected iirc in the thrid route (HF). Even though he could not be detected, his "sniper"-like darts were still dodged or repelled even though they are supposed to be quick as bullets when TrueAssassin throws them. So, if this is true I'm thinking that servants can dodge bullets based off of pure instinct(Saber) and survival tactics(Lancer).

i might be wrong tho. that's just what I think.

[willyvereb]

Loved the story and all, but there's one thing I don't understand:

Wouldn't a sniper take care of most masters? Armed with a .50/.308 cal rifle, a decent shot with the right training can probably eliminate masters at a range of 1.5-2km.

If you refer to the IRA sniper incidents of 1990 to 1997, it's been pretty well established that snipers can work perfectly well in urban environments. Also, since these are generally regular folks who have zero magical connection, sensing them should be impossible for both masters and servants.

Hiring a non-magical assassin should be the logical choice for any master in the Holy Grail war. A good sniper makes servants obsolete.

Actually that's what Emiya Kirigitsu did with some variations.
But generally the mages are too proud to use anything from the modern technology. It's a miracle that the Tohsaka manison has even a phone.(And probably thanks to Rin).
And they're a way too proud to do something like that. Even hiring another magus for assistance is unforgivable thing...not to mention a non-magus assassin.


Against Servants physical weapons are useless. So either some kind of magic or spiritual that able to hurt them. And perhaps most of the Servants have some way to sense those kind of attacks and defend against them. Those Servants are not just powerfull and skilled, but experienced too. In a crazier world where magic exist I guess they saw much more extreme things than a sniper. With Magic it may even possible they(marksmen with similar range) existed back then.
And even if they aren't much experienced in battle(like Caster) they have some exceedingly advanced magic. There are Bounded Fields capable detecting tresspassers. With minor modifications it's possible to create a Bounded Field combined with a defensive mechanism to deflect those kind of actions.

So if the Servant stays near the Master he's/she's safe. And even without them we have few mages capable deffending against those kind of tactics(Like Kotomine, a former exorcist...a "living" terminator, Or Kayneth from the former war)


But in the end it's more of a matter of pride. The mages are beliving in the absolute superiority of magic. They're somewhat hardheaded. They see the use of modern machines as an act against honor.
P.S.:1-2KM? You're wrong. Even with an .50 cal rifle sniping from 1km is kind of a gamble. Not to mention with those hauses and all, we should be glad if they manage to snipe from 700m.

[OctoberFlames]

Actually that's what Emiya Kirigitsu did with some variations.
But generally the mages are too proud to use anything from the modern technology. It's a miracle that the Tohsaka manison has even a phone.(And probably thanks to Rin).
And they're a way too proud to do something like that. Even hiring another magus for assistance is unforgivable thing...not to mention a non-magus assassin.


Against Servants physical weapons are useless. So either some kind of magic or spiritual that able to hurt them. And perhaps most of the Servants have some way to sense those kind of attacks and defend against them. Those Servants are not just powerfull and skilled, but experienced too. In a crazier world where magic exist I guess they saw much more extreme things than a sniper. With Magic it may even possible they(marksmen with similar range) existed back then.
And even if they aren't much experienced in battle(like Caster) they have some exceedingly advanced magic. There are Bounded Fields capable detecting tresspassers. With minor modifications it's possible to create a Bounded Field combined with a defensive mechanism to deflect those kind of actions.

So if the Servant stays near the Master he's/she's safe. And even without them we have few mages capable deffending against those kind of tactics(Like Kotomine, a former exorcist...a "living" terminator, Or Kayneth from the former war)


But in the end it's more of a matter of pride. The mages are beliving in the absolute superiority of magic. They're somewhat hardheaded. They see the use of modern machines as an act against honor.
P.S.:1-2KM? You're wrong. Even with an .50 cal rifle sniping from 1km is kind of a gamble. Not to mention with those hauses and all, we should be glad if they manage to snipe from 700m.

If the master is stupid enough to stand out on an open bridge like Shirou, the kill shouldn't be too difficult, although my initial range estimates might have been too high. Also, kill the master, kill the servant. Taking out a regular person should be easy. There are so many ways you could go about taking out a master, if you think about it. A supply of Sarin gas should be all you need to win a Holy Grail War.

Admittedly, someone like Tohsaka probably wouldn't even consider such options. But for masters like Shinji, the thought doesn't seem too far fetched.

[OctoberFlames]

did you only watch the anime?

bc....
True assassin could not be detected iirc in the thrid route (HF). Even though he could not be detected, his "sniper"-like darts were still dodged or repelled even though they are supposed to be quick as bullets when TrueAssassin throws them. So, if this is true I'm thinking that servants can dodge bullets based off of pure instinct(Saber) and survival tactics(Lancer).

i might be wrong tho. that's just what I think.

Servants can handle those things fine. They probably won't even be affected by them.

But masters are a different thing altogether.

[willyvereb]

Well, Shinji is dishonourable and a coward, but other than his family he has nothing special. And you can't expect him to use poison gas even if he has a way to get it. He may be a good student, but he's quite level-headed.

And the others either aren't as serious(Kozuki-sensei, Kotomine), or too honorable(Shirou, Illya,Rin) to use theese.
You know even if it's called a war it doesn't mean it's like a world war or something.
And about the sniper again. When you get a Master's identity and location then he/she is pretty much in a grave situation. He/she may manage to fend off one attack, but two or even six? No matter how good the master and the Servant they shouldn't be able to handle it.
So when you have a chance to use non-magician assassins or something like that then it's already a situation when you're on the winning side. So there's no need for them.

Anyways FSN has more obvious plotholes like how the hell Rin managed to punch Caster...

[rastilin]

And the others either aren't as serious(Kozuki-sensei, Kotomine), or too honorable(Shirou, Illya,Rin) to use theese.

I doubt it's as simple as not being serious. Attempting to handle chemicals or explosives without the proper training is more likely to result in some horrible but oddly humorous accident. Someone trained in warfare would understand the risks enough to not get involved; it's not as simple as following instructions off the internet.

Anyways FSN has more obvious plotholes like how the hell Rin managed to punch Caster...

Reinforcement. Caster doesn't have any actual combat skills beyond the presence of mind to fight back. She's more the tech servant. Rin is a master level martial artist.

But masters are a different thing altogether.

Right, most servants have a power that lets them know when their side is being attacked and to parry properly. But the servants aren't always there to be on guard. So Kiritsugu's plan was to wait till the servant is far enough away that they can't react in time, then take the shot. He also uses claymore mines and other surprises.

[frenze12]

Anyways FSN has more obvious plotholes like how the hell Rin managed to punch Caster...

Wouldn't really call that a plothole
1: Caster isn't a close combat fighter so her fighting abilities are pretty much zero here.
2: Rin had some training in martial arts add some strenghtening bursts to this and you pretty much get a decent fighter. Also caster was unknown to this fact so she wasn't excepting it either. (Caster was having a wft-moment when Rin jumped out to her)

3: Change and planning, Rin knew she couldn't last long against casters magic so she found a way, preventing her casting from being spelled by beating her to a pulp.

With other words she was just finding the right moment to take caster by suprise.

[frenze12]

If I had to say what I found a real plothole is the fact that Shirou (UBW) endured EA without losing some limbs.

[willyvereb]

Yeah. And don't forget Kirigitsu's rather irregular magics. He isn't a magekiller for nothing.

And right, handling chemicals is dangerous. Not to mention that you must properly set it in a place where no one else can get it. Except if you don't mind the death of bystanders...

Reinforcement? Well, then why Azzoth wouldn't be able to hurt a classical Servant? Rin said in HF that because Saber Alter has a proper corporeal body he's able to hurt her with that sword/dagger. It means otherwise don't.
The Servants are spiritual beings much like a ghost with semi-corporeal body. Normal physical mean have no effect on them.
I don't think a simple reinforcement can do it. And if yes then why they didn't explain it at that scene?
Perhaps Kozuki has the same problem, but because he's on the other side it could be a mystery.(and simply theorised it's Caster's magic on him that allows it).

But then there's the fun with pranana.
Like in Archer's case in UBW and Saber's in Fate.
Honestly, she shouldn't get enough prana from Shirou(after two H-scenes) to use Excalibur 5 times after that. Shirou doesn't even have enough capacity to store enough prana for a low-powered Excalibur shot!

[orangejuicetang]

A great deal of the time, Servants are close to their masters. We've seen servants block a exploding projectile shot at them at speeds of mach 3 from 1 km away. Plus, the important thing is, you have to find the master's identity first. Generally the master keeps their identity hidden as much as possible. And then you have to find a time when the servant isn't anywhere close to the master. And then you have to be sure that the master your targeting doesn't have any way to defend himself (Kayneth from f/z for example, would have his mercury thing automatically defend him from the sniper shot.) And the fact that you were able to discover the master and a time when their servant is away, an ambush with your servant would be much better. Looking at fate/stay night alone, Ilya was almost always in her castle in the forest, so not much luck there. Assassin's master turned out to be the mountain, and sniping the mountain wouldn't be much use. Shirou generally walked out in the open, so he could be a targeted, but he also had Avalon embedded inside him, so I would give him a 50-50 chance of surviving. Rin had Archer around in spirit form a lot, and it would kinda suck to suddenly see your bullet blocked, and then 1 second later, your location being blown up by a broken phantasm fired by archer. I had the impression that Caster was keeping an eye on Kuzuki, and plus chances are that she had some weird magic on him that would probably protect him. Kotomine spent almost his entire time in that church of his. With Shinji, it depends on whether he has Rider with him or not. Yes, than he survives, no, than he dies. But the important thing is that you have to discover who the master was first. Kotomine and Kuzuki were operating on most people's radars, Shinji didn't have any magic circuits, so most people wouldn't suspect him, Shirou is an amateur magus who doesn't really have any idea what's going on, so if he didn't walk around with Saber, he'd probably would have been unsuspected as well. Really, the only two people that would be easy to suspect as masters off the top of the bat would be Rin and Ilya. And remember, with this sniper, you better make sure he doesn't see any servants materialize, or else you have to kill him. And if you don't, the entire mage association is going to come down on you and his ass. And plus, as mentioned before, most magus are simply too proud to even consider it.

[frenze12]

But then there's the fun with pranana.
Like in Archer's case in UBW and Saber's in Fate.
Honestly, she shouldn't get enough prana from Shirou(after two H-scenes) to use Excalibur 5 times after that. Shirou doesn't even have enough capacity to store enough prana for a low-powered Excalibur shot!

She used it 4 times (novel) + the reason was because when she got her sheath back from shirou her mana increased (a lot).



Rin said in HF that because Saber Alter has a proper corporeal body he's able to hurt her with that sword/dagger.



A normal dager still couldn't kill Alter Saber hurt, yes... kill, no ... . That's way they used the azoth dagger. Remember the usage of the azoth dagger is that it amplifies your magic. So you are actually beating her with magic.


Perhaps Kozuki has the same problem, but because he's on the other side it could be a mystery.(and simply theorised it's Caster's magic on him that allows it).



Caster only enhanced kozuki's fists and it was simular to strenghtening magic (she didn't increase kozuki's mystic level or whatever you call it). And that Rin used short burst strenghtening and not continue like shirou (she has more experience after all) is more than enough to hurt a servant like caster.

[willyvereb]

lol...hwo? The sheath contains mana? It's somehow a paradox, but then it's the same as my theory.
When Shirou traces a NP he not only copies the weapon, mimics it's wielder(sometimes even in terms of speed and strenght), but brings out the neccessary mana to use it.
It means the only thing prevents him from using Excalibur his low amount of Magic Circuits(actually it's somehow reasonable. He has 27 while Touko from KnK only 20).

[orangejuicetang]

But Shirou's magic circuits are low quality while Touku's are very high quality or something. Or that basically each of Touko's magic circuits can channel and store much more mana at one time than Shirou.

[frenze12]

Excalibur doesn't have a set mana requirement, it is a magic amplifier with a max output of rank A++. The strenght of the beam depends on how much mana there is put in. (see fate route saber's excalibur vs berserker = BAD END)
The capacity of shirou's magic cirquit isn't consisted so he might be capable to use a full power exa blast.

[willyvereb]

Yeah, but we need 200-300 prana to actually start it. Then you can add as much as you can, but this is the minimum. Otherwise we would see miniature excalibur blasts all the time after she revealed her identity.
And Nasu stated that both Archer and Shirou is unable to use Excalibur without dying in the process.

And Touko may have better quality magic Circuits but they still only caopable to store 10 prana units per piece. But Touko's magic is more advanced and she uses quite an amount of magic devices.
Just to mention: Aozaki Aoko who's capable of destroying a whole city has just one Magic Circuit(10 prana), but she's a sorcerer with the 5th Magic. It's ability is unrevealed, but she's able to use magic with extreme low price.

[orangejuicetang]

True, but then again, this is of course thrown out when plot is needed. Unless Avalon takes less mana to project than Excalibur, which would be odd.

[willyvereb]

No...Porjecting for Shirou is already a breach of the rules of magic.
A normal projection is about cost him 5 units of prana. If I remember well Avalon takes 25.
It's because of the "difficulty" of projecting non-weapon things for Shirou and Because of the Avalon's rank. For Example Projecting Excalibur takes maybe about 10 prana.
Perhaps there's the other dilemma: Did he projected the required prana with it to use or not. Because without that Shirou would have problems with his prana capacity and we don't have a proper explanation behind Saber's sudden incerace of Prana(I mean she used Excalibur 3-4 times in the final fight).

[orangejuicetang]

No...Porjecting for Shirou is already a breach of the rules of magic.
A normal projection is about cost him 5 units of prana. If I remember well Avalon takes 25.
It's because of the "difficulty" of projecting non-weapon things for Shirou and Because of the Avalon's rank. For Example Projecting Excalibur takes maybe about 10 prana.
Perhaps there's the other dilemma: Did he projected the required prana with it to use or not. Because without that Shirou would have problems with his prana capacity and we don't have a proper explanation behind Saber's sudden incerace of Prana(I mean she used Excalibur 3-4 times in the final fight).
... Isn't the first part what I said? Avalon should cost more for Shirou to project than Excalibur, and Avalon should cost more for Shirou to use than Excalibur.

[willyvereb]

Actually we don't know how exactly Avalon works. But every route's finale has one of those plot errors. First of all how the heck he managed to project Avalon inside that mud? And how he managed to project it that fast? He usually projected a sword in a minute. And Avalon's projection is much harder even if it's perfect image engraved inside him.
And let's not mention UBW's finale...If Nasu keeps up all of the rules then Shirou should've died almost a dozen of times at that fight.

[frenze12]

Actually we don't know how exactly Avalon works. But every route's finale has one of those plot errors. First of all how the heck he managed to project Avalon inside that mud? And how he managed to project it that fast? He usually projected a sword in a minute. And Avalon's projection is much harder even if it's perfect image engraved inside him.
And let's not mention UBW's finale...If Nasu keeps up all of the rules then Shirou should've died almost a dozen of times at that fight.

Avalon was inside of shirou for 10 year's it became a part of him so much that it left an imprint on shirou's soul and if you know how his reality marble works this shouldn't to hard to figure. And for all we know activating avalon might not even need mana or very little.

[willyvereb]

Yeah, but magic is magic. And projection is projection. In the midle of that unearthly pain he managed to project, no use magic is some kind of miracle. Not to mention Avalon uses up quite an amount of prana to project. And it's still time even if he perfectly memorised it.

[frenze12]

Yeah, but magic is magic. And projection is projection. In the midle of that unearthly pain he managed to project, no use magic is some kind of miracle. Not to mention Avalon uses up quite an amount of prana to project. And it's still time even if he perfectly memorised it.

http://img1.ak.crunchyroll.com/i/spire3/357ccdeb59167bb31d63e78409021a1b1253454949_full.pn g

As you can see it is not mere memorising the sheath but it's kinda like he already had it finished and only needed to bring it out. So the only problem here is the "no concentration" and "instantly" part.

If i had to explain it with a word I would call it experience.

Experience in a sence that shirou has either traced the object many times or has plenty of knowledge of.

example: archer vs lancer, first meeting

They landed over a hundred blows and every blow disarmed archer. If we go by the rule "projection cost 5 mana units than archer already lost more than 500 mana. this is almost half of archer total (estimated around 1200). Do you see the contradiction here?

I could also bring the example of archer (UBW route) still using projection (a lot) even after he so called was out of mana. Regardless of the matter that a part of it could be plot armor it still holds a lot of meaning.

[orangejuicetang]

If Archer had around 1200 mana, than why the hell couldn't he use excalibur without dying in the process if it only cost 200-300? That's enough for 4-6 shots. Unless, it meant that he couldn't trace it and use it as a broken phantasm without dying.

[frenze12]

If Archer had around 1200 mana, than why the hell couldn't he use excalibur without dying in the process if it only cost 200-300? That's enough for 4-6 shots. Unless, it meant that he couldn't trace it and use it as a broken phantasm without dying.

There is a difference between the mana you can store and the mana you bring out at a single moment. Thanks to this Rin had a change against Dark Sakura in Heavens feel(because their output was the same).
Also we are talking about the max output for excaliber. With 200-300 you only get a lower powered one, max output is more close to 800-1000.

[Aqua Knight]

Excalibur doesn't fit into Archer's style. His techniques are based agile,swift and not mana consuming NF thus he's Archer and not Saber class. Excalibur, for him, will be too slow to trace because it's hard to make such a great NF. Therefore, he doesn't use it.

[frenze12]

Excalibur doesn't fit into Archer's style. His techniques are based agile,swift and not mana consuming NF thus he's Archer and not Saber class. Excalibur, for him, will be too slow to trace because it's hard to make such a great NF. Therefore, he doesn't use it.

If the moment arrives and there is no other choice he would do it. Just see shirou in heaven's feel. So you really can't say that he would NEVER use it.



Perhaps there's the other dilemma: Did he projected the required prana with it to use or not.



In heaven's feel at the ending he basically had no mana anymore and yet he used excaliber, so this might be true (note he died when projecting and the text told us it was like a machine that was programmed to wield the sword).

[Aqua Knight]

I mean Archer carved his style through ages( or I'd rather say dimensions?),maybe he used it once or twice we don't know, but still he prefers K&B.

[Romdeau]

Can anyone explain to me why F/S N is so bloody expensive? The cheapest I can find it for is around 84$ (not including the shipping :( ). I like great games as much as the next guy, but what kinda freakin' premium are we paying for here? I would be dropping over 100 dollars for 1 game!

[Apple Fiend]

In the visual novel can anyone tell me what days include the h scenes just so I know I'm not caught off guard, been trying to find it out.

Only days+route need to be listed.

[rastilin]

Can anyone explain to me why F/S N is so bloody expensive? The cheapest I can find it for is around 84$ (not including the shipping ). I like great games as much as the next guy, but what kinda freakin' premium are we paying for here? I would be dropping over 100 dollars for 1 game!

Well I paid $120 for Civ2 back when it was still being sold.

[orangejuicetang]

http://blstorage.manga-sketchbook.org/Doujinshi/Cruzz/Unlimited%20Saber%20World/?C=M;O=A
It all makes sense now. This is how Shirou actually managed to defeat Gilgamesh. My eyes have been opened.

[Aqua Knight]

That's hilarious but poor Rin..........

[orangejuicetang]

Out of boredom: Servants of the 4th grail war vs Servants of the 5th Grail war. Saber is excluded due to being in both. Which group would win. On one hand, you have Gilgamesh, Alexander, Lancelot, Bluebeard, the Lancer person (I can't spell his name and don't really feel like looking it up), and True Assassin. On the other hand, you have Hercules, GARcher, Assassin, Medea, Medusa, and Cu Cuchulain. Also ignoring the "Gilgamesh just comes out an Ea's the shit out of everyone". Because A., this is hypothetical, and B. Gilgamesh doesn't really pull out Ea on a whim, he needs a worthy opponent (i.e. Alexander, Saber).
So, who would win? Personally, I think it would all come down to what the matchups are.

[willyvereb]

Well then let's compare them class by class:)

-Berserkers:Zero Berserker is the most skilled fighter from every mentioned Servant(he beated Saber with a mere street lamp:p).Stat-wise isn't as good, but with proper preparations or with Ardonlight in use he should be dangerous. But because of the difference in masters it's somewhat equal.

-Lancers: While Cu Cuchlain has the edge in terms of Noble Phantasms(not to mention he's a rune magician too), but his fighting style is a bit problematic. Not to mention he's bound by many 'Geis'. On the other hand Diarumd is a quite trickery tactician and he fights seriously. And they have different masters too. Kayneth is obviously superior to Kirei(in mastership).

-Archers: Gilgmesh is superior without doubt(not to mention he still has Vilmelnia at the time), but it's damn hard to make him even focus on the Grail War. His master is less capable though a better planner and strategist than Rin. GARcher on the other hand while having some issues with being serios he's still fighting and has a much lesser pride. It's important though that in Zero Gilgamesh was twice as serious as he was in FSN.

-Riders:In physical sense Iskander is superior even if may have little problems keeping up with Medea on foot. In terms of Noble phantasms though Alexander's Iono Hetanoi is a powerfull thing it's rahter limited in use and vulnerable to anti-fortress attacks. Her mystic eyes may mean an edge against Iskander again. In terms of mount Medusa has the edge again, because I doubt Gordius Wheel sports a Dragon-like protection like Medea's Pegasus. Not to mention Belleropon can act like a summonable meteor(so like an anti-fortress NP). Perhaps with Shinji as master her use is very limited, but I think it's a better comparsion if we take the case where she has her original master, Sakura feeding her enough prana. In that case probably she's even better than Waver as a master(at least in terms of Magic Crest it's certain).

-Casters:This is the easiest one to decide. Gilles is certainly an irregular master, but that's why he can't do much against a proper Caster like Medea from the age of gods. Though Blaubeard has unlimited prana supply, but Medea has an effective way to gether enough prana for herself. And Medea is more clever and trickerous than the insane Gilles.

-Assassins. Fake Assassin, though a very capable fighter is limited to a single location. So we only can compare the True Assassins. And perhaps they're similary capable with a notable addition of Zero Assassin's ability of splitting into more(but weaker) Assassins.

I think it would be pretty balanced, though it's not the case with the Masters. The masters in the 4th grail war were more capable and prepared. It can be a deciding factor.

[orangejuicetang]

Willyvereb, that was an excellent comparison. I'm just going to make some additional notes.
-It's true that Zero Beserker is an excellent fighter, but the question here is, can he beat Godhand? Even Ardonlight would only work once, and Beserker is godly fast and powerful.

-On Lancer's masters, it is true that Kayneth is a better master than kotomine in terms of mana output, but I think that Kotomine would probably be the better strategist. The thing with Lancer and his 'geis' is that they really don't affect his combat unless somebody somehow manages to make him eat dogmeat before the battle. And unfortunately for Diarumd, Diarumd has really crappy luck.

-On the Archers. Not much to say here, except that twice as serious Gil is still not very serious at all. While Gil should easily be able to beat Archer with Vilmenia and Ea, the problem here is that there is a high chance that he won't see Archer as being worth using those against. And Archer's ubw is pretty much the anti-gob, so in the end it comes down to how serious Gil gets and how late in the fight he gets serious.

-Riders, Casters and True Assassins. Not much to say here, you covered it really well.

Actually, I just realized as I was writing this post, that looking at the masters between the two wars, there isn't a much a difference as it first appears. The masters of the fourth war were Kotomine, Kariya, Uryuu, Tokiomi, Kayneth, Waver, and Kiritsugu. Of these seven, uryuu was just some random insane serial killer, Waver was capable but completely unprepared for the Grail War, and Kariya wasn't really as capable as a normal master, having to rely on the parasitic worms. 5th Grail war masters were Shirou, Rin, Kotomine, Kuzuki, Medea, Ilya, and Shinji/Sakura (depending on who you want to use). Rin and Kotomin are fairly good masters, Ilya was literally created to be a master, and Medea as a Caster was pretty capable as well. Kuzuki couldn't provide mana other than through 'mana transfer' but Medea didn't really need it and Kuzuki provided to be an excellent hand-to-hand combat specalist.

[willyvereb]

Except the fact that Rin wouldn't stand a chance against either Kayneth, Kiritsugu and Kirei(both in battle and tactics). And she was the most capable master. (Fake)Assassin's "master" was the holy ground of Ryoudo Temple, so Meda as master out of question, though she prepared well, like a Caster class servant should. In terms of battle tactics every participant was inferior in the Grail War.(maybe except Illya[?] and of course Zouken). In the fourth we have Kayneth, Kiritsugu, Kirei, Tokiomi. And we had more capable masters too. In terms of masters the 4th war had more capable and more cunning ones.

[rastilin]

Except the fact that Rin wouldn't stand a chance against either Kayneth, Kiritsugu and Kirei(both in battle and tactics). And she was the most capable master. (Fake)Assassin's "master" was the holy ground of Ryoudo Temple, so Meda as master out of question, though she prepared well, like a Caster class servant should. In terms of battle tactics every participant was inferior in the Grail War.(maybe except Illya[?] and of course Zouken). In the fourth we have Kayneth, Kiritsugu, Kirei, Tokiomi. And we had more capable masters too. In terms of masters the 4th war had more capable and more cunning ones.

I try to stay away from power level discussions, too much depends on terrain and tactics in a real battle.

But I take issue with your description of Mr Tohsaka as being "cunning". He's predictable and formulaic, even Gil thinks so.

* Despite being the owner of Fuyukii and the stated protector, he couldn't mobilize his servant to fight the soul drinking monster sent against it. Saber, Lancer and Rider dropped everything to halt Caster, even accepting permanent handicaps to their battles.
* In a 1v1 battle in which he outperforms his enemy to the point where he wins without trouble, he still fails to actually kill him, or even permanently inconvenience him.
* He tries to murder his main ally's father, but gets caught.
* Finally, he gets killed by his own side while his servant watches.

All of Tohsaka's advantages are due to his birthright and lineage. The man is totally worthless. He starts out with a hidden ally, an excellent base and every possible advantage and proceeds to waste them.

I think the absolute low point is when Rin runs away, gets lost in the city and Tohsaka's wife goes to look for her by herself. The one who finds her is his worst enemy; the man sworn to kill him. Who proceeds to hand her back to Ms Tohsaka unharmed, because he feels sorry for her. When your blood enemy is going around saving your children, you've officially hit bottom on the fear scale.

-On the Archers. I swore I would resist the impulse. But it's worth pointing out that Goldie doesn't have any method of detecting an incoming broken phantasm going at his head from maximum range, which is implied to be something on 4 miles or so. Also Eknidu would probably be more efficient against Gil than it would against Archer. It comes down to the setup at the start.

[Flinch]

Very good points, Rastilin. Tokiomi did squander every advantage that he had. Master's with much less of an advantage (Waver and Kariya, for instance) had to rely primarily on the strength of their Servants during the war. While Ryuunosuke didn't really care, he at least still killed people and had "fun". Kayneth "El Melloi" Archibald lost all but one artifact very early, only for him to be totally destroyed by Kiritsugu. Kotomine could be said to be more capable than his own Servant, but he makes very good use of his fighting skills.And Kiritsugu had the greatest of advantages, not being bound by any morality and having access to the most "effective" of weapons.

In comparison to the 5th war, none of the characters have the same advantages. Bazett would've been the most capable, but killed too early to even fight. Second in line would be Kotomine, as everyone else was a novice. Medea, because she could actually use powerful offensive magic. Rin, because she couldn't learn as quickly as Kotomine, nor could she fight well on her own (in comparison). Ilya, because healing and alchemy only go so far... especially when you're always pissed and have a servant that can smash EVERYTHING. Sakura, as she had no formal training whatsoever. And our favorite, Emiya Shiro: who was so pathetic in terms of a master, Kariya would look like a god in comparison.


Comparing them makes it very obvious which side would win.

[willyvereb]

He sure was that. Afterall, he managed to think somewhat clearly while he slowly eaten by the implanted Crest Worms. And he even used familiars to scout. And his actual tactic to hide and leave everything to Berserker was a relatively good idea. He's a planning genius compared to Shirou...

But now I am confused if you agree or disagree with me about the 4th Grail war's masters being more competent or not.
And to defend Kayneth...he's a magus afterall, Kiritsugu's speciality to surprise and kill any magus. In normal situation Kayneth would've won the war, but he underestimated Kiritsugu(man...he's a master to make his enemies do that...and even his magecraft is kind of uncommon at the very least:) ). So for him being defeated by him is not surprising and it's mentionable that Kiritsugu was somewhat lucky at that confrontation.

[Flinch]

Kayneth was a prideful fool who let his title of Lord El Melloi get in the way of his judgment. Had his first opponent not been Kiritsugu, he might have lasted longer. Then again, Diarmuid's weapons seemed too perfect for plot advancement.

All in all, El Melloi is a great master... just needs to remember that very few care about the fact that he's a prodigy. Though he was a skilled magus, he probably never fought magi on the same level as his opponents. Kiritsugu knew what he was doing, so Kariya would really be the only one with an advantage against him as he never showed himself (save his battle with Tokiomi). In short, Kayneth had an advantage, lost it, tried to fight, lost his only remaining advantage, and still tried to fight as the weakest master with the weakest servant (in comparison to other servants at that point, Diarmuid couldn't amount to much). To sum it up, he's an idiot.

[orangejuicetang]

Basically, the problem with Kayneth and Tokiomi are that as full maguses who have lived their entire lives as maguses, they expect everybody to play by the rules. They are capable in terms of mana, but they aren't really crafty or cunning. They try to make each decision logically, but they don't make any plots like people like Kotomine do.

[willyvereb]

Actually, Kayneth's reason for being so rash after his "defeat"(it wasn't even a fight...Kiritsugu blew up his base), he was made fun by her supposed wife, Sola-Ui. And he liked her and desperately wanted to prove her he's capable. I guess if she wasn't there the War would turn out differently a bit(even if he have to manage with fewer prana then)...but probably Kiritsugu wins, because of his obvious advantages.

But we say that Kayneth and Tokiomi wasn't a good strategist...then what about FSN?
Who have(other than Kirei of course) better tactical and strategical ability than them? Rin? Maybe...Illya? Doubious.... Shinji/Sakura, Kozuki, Shirou? Hell no!
Zouken most probably and Caster was about at the same level as them.
Not to mention every master was overshadowed by Kirei's and Kiritsugu's plots in F/Z.

I guess if Kayneth was present in the 5th Grail war he would've been really successfull(though Kirei probably would cross his way quite badly in the end...)

[Flinch]

Even Kariya would've won the 5th war... the Masters of the 5th war (save Bazett and Kotomine) were all novices. The only threat would've been Rin, but Kariya would only go after her servant.

[Kimiko Khan]

i haven't read fate/zero yet but not counting gil as he is very different from his actual mythology i would place my money on Alexander as out of all the 4th grail war servants and probably out of all them save for archer he's the best tactician. the man built one of the largest empires in the world before he was 30.

[Flinch]

if it wasn't predetermined who would win and who would lose, fate/Zero would've turned out better in my mind. Gilgamesh should have been destroyed by Lancelot, no questions asked. Additionally, Alexander would've probably done about the same, seeing how amazingly awesome he was.

[mAc Chaos]

What if, instead of looking at it from War VS War, we looked at it like one giant War, where the two groups could mingle and take sides? Would the "good" side win or the "evil" side? Or would someone like Kotomine just go off on his own?

Like, say, Iksander teams up with Emiya and Saber, or Caster with Caster.

[orangejuicetang]

If it was a giant war, that might make things a bit more complicated. I'm guessing that Kiritsugu would probably ally with Ilya, and then there's a 50/50 chance that Shirou will try to ally with Kiritsugu. If Sakura was Rider's master, Kariya would probably attempt to ally with her, if Shinji, probably not. Kotomine would probably work together with himself from the other war. Alexander would probably ally himself with whoever would be willing to work with him to conquer everything. Rin might ally with her father, or she might ally with Kariya, I don't really know. Most of the others would probably remain solo though.

[mAc Chaos]

Well, there wouldn't be two Kotomine's... just one. And he would have... Lancer, True Assassin, and Gilgamesh. Ha ha ha ha. Or maybe just Gilgamesh and Lancer.

[orangejuicetang]

Actually, he would probably just have Lancer and True Assassin, if Tokoiomi was still alive. Unless we have two gilgameshs.

[Flinch]

The Emiya clan would probably emerge victorious, seeing how Kiritsugu would "win at all costs". Additionally, 4 magi (Kiritsugu, Irisivviel, Ilyasviel, and Shiro) and a trained assassin would have an unimaginable advantage over the others.

Kayneth would get screwed over... again. Diarmuid, however, just doesn't have the raw power or great Noble Phantasms as the other Servants.

Waver would probably ride more confidently with Iskander, and be one of the last to go.

The Makiri clan would have a hell of a combo with Lancelot and Medusa, and Medusa would probably be reduced to supporting Lancelot in his fights to prevent him from taking too much mana from Kariya.

The Tosakas would lose very quickly, as Rin would follow her father in squandering their advantages.

Kotomine... well... I don't really know. He'd probably fight with Hassan-i Sabbah, or have him do recon and go after the Masters himself.

Uryuu and Gilles would just continue to murder people, not really caring about the war... again.

Medea would betray her master... again. If she finds Kuzuki, she'll just want to live with him and indulge in the love she has.

Bazett... if she doesn't get killed in the beginning, she'd probably get taken out by Kiritsugu for not expecting his tactics and thus losing Cuchulainn.

Don't think I forgot anyone... so that's my guess of how it'd turn out.

[rastilin]

The Emiya clan would probably emerge victorious, seeing how Kiritsugu would "win at all costs". Additionally, 4 magi (Kiritsugu, Irisivviel, Ilyasviel, and Shiro) and a trained assassin would have an unimaginable advantage over the others.

The Tosakas would lose very quickly, as Rin would follow her father in squandering their advantages.

On that note. You're forgetting Archer is also part of the Emiya clan. He might have certain loyalty problems with fighting his own side.

[Flinch]

well, he wouldn't attack Kiritsugu or Ilya directly, so there goes Rin's advantage. So in short, the Tosaka clan would be SCREWED.

[orangejuicetang]

Well, Archer might attack Kiritsugu directly. He has turned pretty cynical and bitter about the ideal that Kiritsugu burdened upon him. Although, if Rin decides to ally with Shirou and joins Clan Emiya, than it adds even more to their power. I mean, they would already have two Sabers and Hercules, and then Archer on top of that?

[swtrooper42]

Today I looked at my Fate/Stay Night box and got really nostalgic to play again.
Made me realize how this game has really shaped some of my ethics and my definition of a hero.

Anyway question: In UBW True end, why does Rin ask if Shirou was ever in track?
In HF I know that Sakura seeing Shirou trying to get over a bar was pretty big, but why is Rin asking?

[mAc Chaos]

Kotomine would be working with the Tohsakas, wouldn't he? So we'd have Archer, Gilgamesh, and True Assassin together, along with all the benefits each Master brings to the table.

[rastilin]

Anyway question: In UBW True end, why does Rin ask if Shirou was ever in track?
In HF I know that Sakura seeing Shirou trying to get over a bar was pretty big, but why is Rin asking?

I think Rin was there as well.

[Flinch]

If that were to happen, the Emiya clan would have Waver "Lord El Melloi II" Welvet and Iskander on their side, so the balance of power would tip in favor of the Emiya clan again. Then again... Kotomine might kill the Tosaka masters because it'd be fun.

I highly doubt that Heroic Spirit Emiya would attack Kiritsugu, as he still idolizes him like a god and followed through on that dream as best as anyone could and still ended at the same conclusion that Kiritsugu did. Additionally, Sakura would protest greatly against attacking the Emiya clan, which could lead to an alliance against the Tosakas, in which Kariya would probably jump at the chance to get back at Tokiomi. With the most elite masters and the best servants, the Emiya Clan would easily win this scenario.

[mAc Chaos]

But would he try to attack SHIROU? He might go on the whole double / triple backstab spree.

[Flinch]

If he kills himself, he ceases to exist... what an effective trade...

[orangejuicetang]

If he kills himself, he ceases to exist... what an effective trade...

Actually, it does not work that way. It's been mentioned before from various sources. It's the same reason that Saber will still become a heroic spirit even if she wins the grail and somehow undoes the history of King Arthur. Although it should be pointed out that for Archer, if he ceases to exist, he couldn't be happier. Additionally, why would Waver ally with team Emiya? And Rin wouldn't necessarily ally with her father. She also has a high chance of allying with Shirou, making up some random explanation to justify it. Although Archer might go on his backstabbing gambit that will somehow end up with Rin in the best position to win the war.

Gilgamesh and Archer working together? How long do you think that would last before Gilgamesh decides to try and kill Archer for being "faker mongrel lol"

[Flinch]

Saber and Iskander got along very well, as such, Irisviel and Waver considered each other "allies". As such, Kiritsugu did not try and kill Waver when he had an opportunity. Besides, Rin would quickly lose to two Eisnberns, especially when her Servant won't attack one of them.

[orangejuicetang]

Did Saber get along that well with Alexander? I felt that they were willing to ally with each other in emergencies and didn't hate each other to the point of death, but getting along might not be the right word. Alexander is pretty annoyed at the way that Saber lived her life and the the way she acts, and the same is true vice versa. Their almost opposites in that regard.

Also, I said that Rin might try to ally with Shirou, who might try to ally with Kiritsugu, who would try to ally with Ilya. I didn't say anything about her taking on two Eisnberns.?

[Flinch]

Irisviel von Einzbern would be part of Kiritsugu's crew, as would Hisau Maiya. Irisviel and Kiritsugu together would instantly sway Illyasviel.

[Kimiko Khan]

to be honest none of them stand a chance when it comes to fighting gilgamesh. there's a reason he's called the king of heroes the only advantage any of them would have is numbers or in sabers case avalon

[willyvereb]

Yeah...but Gilgamesh is too lazy and arogant to actually pose such a big threat. If Gilgamesh ever goes really serious it means the end of the world(as it happened in HA:p*sarcasm*)

So he's pretty much defeatable. But he's one of the biggest uncertainity factor in the war.

[Kimiko Khan]

hmmmm true,

[orangejuicetang]

Yeah, pretty much. Gilgamesh is usually much too lazy or arrogant to fight seriously against most people. The only ones he takes seriously are the other "kings", that is Saber and Alexander. Everybody else is just a mongrel as far as he's concerned. And while it's true that Gilgamesh has the potential to beat everybody in a simple power contest, it's been mentioned by someone else that he really doesn't have any way to protect himself from a Broken Phantasm shot at his head from 5 miles away going at mach 4.

[willyvereb]

Another question is that how you lure him into a situation like that...Actually getting a clear sight on him from that distance is pretty much impossible most of the time.

[Flinch]

Have Heracles fight him, completely distract him, and have someone take a shot then. Heracles won't die, Gil would.

[willyvereb]

Lol...but where do you find a good spot for it? The graveyard like in UBW?:)
And you've already theorised the Emiya-Tohsaka cooperation:p
And with that aknownledged Archer hardly has a way to pull that off alone.(I mean the long range sniping in urban area).
Perhaps Gil is far from undefeatable, but even with the seriousness of a clown he's dangerous.

[Flinch]

True, but he had EXTREME amounts of trouble fighting Lancelot, so if he's distracted against him, it'll be an easy kill for someone else.

[willyvereb]

Lancelot is the most skilled and experienced Servant we know of. Not to mention he had a pretty convinient NP against Gil. And he still didn't go all out htat time. It's been suggested that he was cocky even those times and ofc full of pride to ever use EA or anything. For example imagine the F-15 vs Vilmelnia scene a bit differently. Gil summons EA and either ensdares or rips Lancelot's F-15 into shreds. Afterall Enkidu can appear from out of nowhere. he hardly needs to aim with it.
So I say he was just as much of an arrogant moron as usual.

[orangejuicetang]

Just have Archer stay on top of the bridge. Whenever Gilgamesh pops up, bam headshot. After all, from there, "all of Shinto is in my range".

[Flinch]

Lancelot in an F15 Eagle is the most skilled pilot in existence at that point. Even if it's caught by Enkindu, the ejection seat would still work and blast him to a fairly safe distance. Besides, what if Lancelot corrupts the chains... Gilgamesh would be bound by his own weapon. With him being 2/3 god, there'd be no way for him to ever break free.

[orangejuicetang]

I fairly doubt that Gilgamesh would hit Lancealot with Enkidu exactly for that reason. Yes, Gilgamesh is an arrogant prick, but say what you will, he's not stupid. If he saw that Lancealot could corrupt his noble phantasms and use them, which he did, he's not going to go use a noble phantasm that would be a huge weakness for him.
As for Gilgamesh, yes he is two thirds god, but that divinity is lowered a whole rank by the time of fate/zero for disrespecting them or something. So it's more like B divinity. And Beserker managed to break free even though Beserker had A divinity. But then again, Beserker was the fucking Hercules. And he was seriously pissed at that time. Not to mention dying.

[Nerroth]

I was under the impression that Lancelot was riding on the fuselage of the F-15J, and the original pilot was trapped in his seat (and possibly put under intolerable strain in the process)...

[orangejuicetang]

The original pilot actually died since Lancelot basically hijacked and turned it into a superjet, and put the original pilot through too much g's.

[Flinch]

The only god(dess) that Gilgamesh disrespected was Ishtar, goddess of prostitution (I might be wrong with the name, but right about what she was the goddess of) by refusing to marry her.

[orangejuicetang]

I meant more that he disrespects gods, as in he doesn't like them other than acts of disrespect. At least that's what my info says, to explain why his divinity dropped to B rank.

[Flinch]

He killed a divine bull... and didn't really believe whathisname (the god who gave him the immortality potion). Other than that, he shows no disrespect to gods at all, so it really doesn't warrant him having only a B in divinity.

[orangejuicetang]

That's what the game says itself. Yes, yes, I know about the original Epic of Gilgamesh story. However, the game itself says that Gilgamesh's divinity ranks was originally A+ being 2/3's god, but dropped an entire rank to rank B due to Gilgamesh's disrespect. Take that how you will.

[IchiKyo]

Hum so these are the first pictures of Fate/Extra...
http://www.the-magicbox.com/0910/game091027b.shtml

[Flinch]

What in god's name did they do to Medusa? I plan to boycott such a 'thing' as this in outrage for that. Additionally, Cuchulainn looks like he just came off the set of Neon Genesis Evangelion when he's in that jumpsuit. Oh, Arturia would look WAY better in satin or green than in red.

[orangejuicetang]

Just throwing it out, Rider might not be Medusa this time...

[willyvereb]

Or she might not even be a Rider.
Anyways We'll see after the second bundle of pictures and info.

[Flinch]

Then what'll they have? A female Attila the Hun? And it seems no one else cares about Cuchulainn...

[orangejuicetang]

Your not more concerned about the fact that Saber now apparently has a see-thru dress? I mean, seriously, what's going on with these designs here.

[mAc Chaos]

This isn't a serious game. It's just merchandise they're throwing out there for people to blow money on.

[Flinch]

Your not more concerned about the fact that Saber now apparently has a see-thru dress?

Why would I complain about that?

[Aqua Knight]

Was replaying HF recently, why were there two red pendants??
I mean after Shirou projected that multi-dimensional sword, Tohsaka came and told she had the same gem?
WTF? There should have been only 1, shouldn't it?

[frenze12]

Was replaying HF recently, why were there two red pendants??
I mean after Shirou projected that multi-dimensional sword, Tohsaka came and told she had the same gem?
WTF? There should have been only 1, shouldn't it?

Because the pendant that shirou found is the pendant of archer (he left it behind).

[gaffer7]

Was replaying HF recently, why were there two red pendants??
I mean after Shirou projected that multi-dimensional sword, Tohsaka came and told she had the same gem?
WTF? There should have been only 1, shouldn't it?

The other one she received from Archer, remember Archer = Shirou? He gave it to her when she was sad after having lost her dad's gift.

[Aqua Knight]

Because the pendant that shirou found is the pendant of archer (he left it behind).

That makes no sense.
Archer left his pendant at Shirou's house??

[gaffer7]

That makes no sense.
Archer left his pendant at Shirou's house??

Remember when Rin healed Shirou with the pendant after he was killed? She left it there, and Shirou kept it since then, so that's why he has it. In fact, he kept it all his life, including when he became Archer, who gave it back to Rin after she came back on the day she lost it. Hence at this point of time there are two, does trippy things to your mind, eh? :D

[Aqua Knight]

Why then in UBW there was only 1?

[gaffer7]

Why then in UBW there was only 1?

There were two, it's just that Rin didn't mention it directly because by then it was obvious that Shirou and Archer were one and the same, and it was no surprise that Shirou had the same pendant. Maybe play UBW again :) one of the characters will mention it somewhere.

[orangejuicetang]

Exactly. In UBW, when Shirou is at Rin's house, he accidently knocks over her drawer, and the red pendant comes out, which leads to Shirou to muse how he found the exact same one on the night he got stabbed. Later after he told Rin about this, Rin would tell him that there is only one of the pendant in the entire world. Later still, Archer would explain how he kept that red pendant with him for the rest of his life, which would serve as the catalyst that Rin needed to summon Archer.

If you just want the order of events, it goes something like Lancer stabs Shirou --> Rin heals Shriou with mana from the pendant --> Rin leaves pendant behind since there's no more mana and goes home --> Shirou wakes up, notes that he's still alive and there's a pretty pendant around, picks it up and takes it home --> Archer meets Rin at her home, notes that she doesn't have her pendant, makes some lies about picking up the pendant, and then gives Rin the pendant that Archer had.

[Aqua Knight]

I owe you.

[Flinch]

Not to sound like a jerk, but that was rather easy to pick up in the novel.

[willyvereb]

But it exactly sounds like that.:p
And I bet 17th warrior only forgot that..If someone has much things to do, things like little plot points in a fiction quickly gets forgotten.
Anyways I should rop the bomb.
Which girl suits Shirou the best. I mean especially the 3 heroines...(though Flinch will surely mention loli-chan I guess:D )

[Aqua Knight]

He should stick with Tiger.

[Flinch]

Loli-chan!

[gaffer7]

Definitely Saber in my opinion, the two of them share the same kind of personality and sense of honour, and I always get the feeling in every arc that each have a special place in each other's hearts. Rin would go better with Archer, even though that seems kind of messed up :D

[orangejuicetang]

Just wanting to point out, but that personality and sense of honor is what screws them over/ will screw them over so many times during their life. I mean, seriously, just look at what happened to Saber and Archer which causes them to both basically want to wipe themselves out of existence.

[gaffer7]

Just wanting to point out, but that personality and sense of honor is what screws them over/ will screw them over so many times during their life. I mean, seriously, just look at what happened to Saber and Archer which causes them to both basically want to wipe themselves out of existence.

Well, at least they'll be happily screwed over together then :p Hopefully by getting together, Shirou and Saber will be able to temper each others self-sacrificing natures in their happiness together. Lol, and if not, at least we have Realta Nua true ending to suggest things will be happy in the end anyway :D

[willyvereb]

And what similarities they had other than that? In their relationship it's likely for Saber to wear the pants. And how much they managed to understand each other? Saber should be better of with Diarmuid(Zero Lancer). If they weren't enemies in the story then things could've happened.
Shirou just gasped the most important aspect of her life in the very end: She isn't king by accident, she's by choice and she always be a knight and king first before a woman. Perhaps in Saber's part too she had a hard time understand why he does that.Not to mention they're from different times...they would always have difficulties to understand each other.
They're much better as comrades than lovers...if they didn't have that H-scene "out of desperation"(lol...quite sly, aren't you, Nasu^^) she would hardly realise romantical feelings for him. Strangely, but understandably they got along better in UBW and HF where he didn't bothered her with his feelings...Especially in HF where it seems researching on Saber's former master is a good way to ease her up( even if not even nearly that was his intention with it...he was just thrilled to know more about his adoptive father)
I am not saying they're totally unfit or something with the lines, but she's the least fit from the 3 heroines, really.(Perhaps, still well fit but not the best)
And what wouls've Shirou gained from the relationship? The only one who changed was Saber from that...it ws just a childish wish-granting for him to chase Saber.

[orangejuicetang]

I actually agree with the idea that Saber is the most unsuited for Shirou, or at least the Shirou at the time of the Holy Grail war. I mean, Archer nailed it right on the head, even though he was talking about himself, with the "I have reached my end a long time ago". She is part of the past, she has already lived her life. Yes, she regrets her life and feels like she made mistakes, but that doesn't change the fact that she had already basically finished her life long ago. In fact, the most important thing about Saber's wish is helping her accept the facts of her life and stop regretting it, which happens in both Fate and UBW true. On the other hand, a person could say that Shirou's life/destiny is just beginning to unfold after the Holy Grail War.

On the other hand, does anyone else notice how much Archer's life parallel's Saber's, and how tragic they both are? I actually found Archer's life more tragic than Saber's too.

[kakakka]

On the other hand, does anyone else notice how much Archer's life parallel's Saber's, and how tragic they both are? I actually found Archer's life more tragic than Saber's too.
It was mentioned back when the threads were active. I agree. I remember before mistaking Shiro's dream in UBW for Saber's past because of the tones of regrets and all that stuff (orf course, that is until it got more detailed later on)

[gaffer7]

And what similarities they had other than that?

Well, it's quite an important similarity... But also they both share passion for their goals, both don't like burdening others with their troubles, think with their hearts before their heads, and are openly polite and kind most of the time. These are some of the things I've noticed anyway.

Shirou just gasped the most important aspect of her life in the very end: She isn't king by accident, she's by choice and she always be a knight and king first before a woman. Perhaps in Saber's part too she had a hard time understand why he does that.Not to mention they're from different times...they would always have difficulties to understand each other.

Saber was learning to love in the end though, wasn't she? Just she couldn't be selfish and value her relationship with Shirou over the harm the Holy Grail would have caused the world. They were awkward in their arc, but let's face it, they're both newbies to dealing with love, since they'd spent their lives chasing after their goals. As for their different times, it's true that it would have caused issues, but I'm sure it wouldn't have been a huge stumbling block as long as they loved each other.

They're much better as comrades than lovers...if they didn't have that H-scene "out of desperation"(lol...quite sly, aren't you, Nasu^^) she would hardly realise romantical feelings for him.

Seemed at the time though neither was unhappy about becoming lovers though, there was certainly no objection other than the fact things were forced :heh:

Strangely, but understandably they got along better in UBW and HF where he didn't bothered her with his feelings...Especially in HF where it seems researching on Saber's former master is a good way to ease her up( even if not even nearly that was his intention with it...he was just thrilled to know more about his adoptive father)

Got along better? Hmm, maybe less awkward... but relationships often are awkward at the beginning. As for HF, I got the feeling in that arc that Saber was truly dear to Shirou; although in that arc he chose Sakura, the way he kept remembering Saber when Rider called him from behind using her pronunciation, and when he had to kill her, gave me the impression that she was special to him.

I understand though that many may not feel the same way as I do, but to me, the way Shirou and Saber interact makes me approve of their relationship more than ShirouxRin or ShirouxSakura. Feel free to disagree though!

On the other hand, does anyone else notice how much Archer's life parallel's Saber's, and how tragic they both are? I actually found Archer's life more tragic than Saber's too.

I agree with this statement, I also found Archer's life more tragic, I guess largely because Saber's end is partially resolved in the end, whereas Archer will always be living under the weight of his choice and being forced to live the last kind of life he could have wished for.

[willyvereb]

I don't remember such a part...Shirou was never instructed about the Servant-Master dream connection in UBW. He always knew it is his dream, but he had problems grasping the meaning.

But enough of Saber we hardly even mentioned the other heroines yet.
For example Rin. She should be a better choice...they have proper chemistry and they even managed to change each other somehow. Though there's the same problem as with Saber: she would likely wear the pants in their relationship instead of Shirou. Rin needs somone who can as sharp as her and punches her back...while Shirou has moments like that he's still somehow our doormat-like boy. She needs somone who can oppose her and in turn also strong mentally. Issei for example can oppose her, but not a strong person, while Shirou can't oppose her, but a strong person. Archer for example have an interesting chemistry with Rin even if it was unromantical to the end...in short I can understand why people often pair up the two.

Saber was learning to love in the end though, wasn't she? Just she couldn't be selfish and value her relationship with Shirou over the harm the Holy Grail would have caused the world. They were awkward in their arc, but let's face it, they're both newbies to dealing with love, since they'd spent their lives chasing after their goals. As for their different times, it's true that it would have caused issues, but I'm sure it wouldn't have been a huge stumbling block as long as they loved each other.
Seemed at the time though neither was unhappy about becoming lovers though, there was certainly no objection other than the fact things were forced :heh:

That was the most interesting part.
Yeah, he liked Saber and she liked him too. I wouldn't dare to question that...they even make a good pair, but not even nearly the best. We have just the cool girl+protagonist pairing where the heroine come to love the protagonist after he tried so hard to earn that. And it seems you didn't disregard the fact that without the H-scene they wouldn't even got together. Sex is something generally a man and woman does when they attracted to each other the very least...it's the same in any era(besides Gilgamesh's...where women=slaves). So Saber can't look on Shirou otherwise because with that she prooved that even if it was a bit forced situation. She's that honorbound.

And about Shirou and Saber being clueless about the love...funnily it's the same with Rin and they had a better chemistry. And in HF despite Shirou's such inexperienced in it, she shows it to a great deal...now isn't it means Saber/Shirou has the least chemistry?

P.S.:
About HF's saber...you can be right. Shirou might've loved her somehow, but it's natural. Afterall Shirou had crush on Tohsaka in every route, mesmerised by Saber's beuty in every route and was already in love with Sakura without him noticing it in every route. It's just he focused on the one who needed the most help and perhaps he got closer to that girl. Afterall he has feelings for all 3 and makes a relatively good pair with every heroine.

[kakakka]

They're much better as comrades than lovers...if they didn't have that H-scene "out of desperation"(lol...quite sly, aren't you, Nasu^^) she would hardly realise romantical feelings for him.
Wait, you blame the H-scene? :heh: That never clicked to me though. I always thought awkwardness came in between them after that, not romantic feelings. Sort of like, "I can't believe you do this to me" kind of feeling - you know what I mean.

The thing that increased my interest about the pairing, and I felt they really started to understand each other, was during and after their date. Even late, I think that was the most romantic scene they have.

I don't remember such a part...Shirou was never instructed about the Servant-Master dream connection in UBW. He always knew it is his dream, but he had problems grasping the meaning.
Well, I'm talking about what I (not Shirou) thought the dream he's having, not the technicality behind it and all that stuff.

[orangejuicetang]

But enough of Saber we hardly even mentioned the other heroines yet.
For example Rin. She should be a better choice...they have proper chemistry and they even managed to change each other somehow. Though there's the same problem as with Saber: she would likely wear the pants in their relationship instead of Shirou. Rin needs somone who can as sharp as her and punches her back...while Shirou has moments like that he's still somehow our doormat-like boy. She needs somone who can oppose her and in turn also strong mentally. Issei for example can oppose her, but not a strong person, while Shirou can't oppose her, but a strong person. Archer for example have an interesting chemistry with Rin even if it was unromantical to the end...in short I can understand why people often pair up the two.

The interesting thing about Rin is actually how she is the opposite of Shirou in quite a few areas. She seems to be tough and acts tough, but is actually kinda fragile inside, like how the UBW Bloodfort scene really shakes her. On the other hand, Shirou turns out be much tougher than the doormat he appears at the surface. Rin can can do everything well except the most important thing which she messes up, but Shirou manages to nail things when they really matter. I definitely think your cutting Shirou a little short by saying he's a doormat who can't roll with her punches.

[willyvereb]

Wait, you blame the H-scene? :heh: That never clicked to me though. I always thought awkwardness came in between them after that, not romantic feelings. Sort of like, "I can't believe you do this to me" kind of feeling - you know what I mean.

The thing that increased my interest about the pairing, and I felt they really started to understand each other, was during and after their date. Even late, I think that was the most romantic scene they have.

Perhaps...it's naturally was the most romantical scene of the two, and that's one of the reason why he's the least suited with Saber. With Rin he had quite the amount of romantical scenes, not to mention Sakura.
Perhaps the amount of romantical scenes =/= the chemistry, but a valid point when we're debating it.

But you should delete your second post...I don't really like those scattered DPs...
The interesting thing about Rin is actually how she is the opposite of Shirou in quite a few areas. She seems to be tough and acts tough, but is actually kinda fragile inside, like how the UBW Bloodfort scene really shakes her. On the other hand, Shirou turns out be much tougher than the doormat he appears at the surface. Rin can can do everything well except the most important thing which she messes up, but Shirou manages to nail things when they really matter. I definitely think your cutting Shirou a little short by saying he's a doormat who can't roll with her punches.

Well I might've said wrong...He can pull his punches and has a strong spirit, but he isn't the one in control. He's kind of devout while Rin likes to order people around. But it wasn't in HF...actually he takes the lead to somehow Rin's surprise. Many people suspect that Rin's fallen in love with Shirou more in HF than in UBW, despite she wasn't even Shirou's focus. But the very least she's fallen in love with him in HF as much as she's in UBW, her route.

And now we should mention the other heroines too...the big focus on saber bothers me when we hardly mention the other heroines.

[kakakka]

But you should delete your second post...I don't really like those scattered DPs...
I guess I was at the mess this time. I thought someone's going to post after me, since this topic is active this time, so I didn't really mind doing one post the another. I guess what I was expecting didn't happen.

[Flinch]

The ironic part was that they made Saber very different from the legend. The downfall of Arthur was not caused by his ideology, but by his failure to listen to others. Additionally, he had greed to an extent. When Viviane demanded he return Excalibur and its scabbard to the people of Avalon for rejecting them in favor of the Christian God (thank you Gwenwyver, for leading to your husband's downfall so early in his life), Arthur blatantly refused, saying that the sword and the scabbard were his and his alone. Viviane then demanded the head of Sir Balin le Savage or the head of Balin's wife as payment for this. Balin killed Vivian with the Axe of the Green Knight (which was next to Gawain's chair, as Bertilak had given it to him as a gift).

The one who died because of their ideology was Gawain, who already was the embodiment of chivalry. Don't really understand why they made Saber try to be like him so much... killed the validity... more.


In short, we could tear some of the servants apart for them being so different in the story and their actual legends.

Arturia: I don't want to get into details... I'll go on for hours

Gilgamesh: Pretty accurate with personality, well, accurate all around. Except for those earrings and that blond hair... and his white skin

Diarmuid: Nothing wrong... amazingly

Iskander: Nothing wrong... though I do like how they explained his massive size

Gilles de Rais: Nothing wrong, though he didn't ejaculate onto the kids he murdered... yes, he actually did that; don't ask.

Hassan-i Sabbah: Since so little is actually known about him (save the multiple personalities), I'd go with it being quite accurate

Lancelot: Nothing wrong... well, except the purple hair, but that's not really too much of a flaw considering his lineage.

Emiya Shiro: N/A

Cuchulainn: Nothing wrong, though he should've appeared more.

Medusa: Nothing wrong. As many don't know, she was extremely beautiful before her and her sisters were cursed to their hideous form. She was routinely picked on by her sisters, and did wish for it to stop.

Medea: PERFECT.

Sasaki Kojiro: Since his very existence is unknown, we can only go by the stories. Since he always wanted a good fight, I'd say it's pretty accurate.

Heracles: Nothing wrong... though I would've like to at least have seen him use the Bow of the Hydra and watch him own everyone.

[willyvereb]

lol...nothing wrong with them?...seriously.

-Gilgamesh:I don't think so. He turned out to be a good king after his failure to be immortal. And he was a good person somehow after his meeting with Enkidu. Not to mention his utopian mega-rich kingdom with technology only seen in Sci-fi stories. Actually his looks is the smallest problem for me. But at the very least he's an interesting character.

-Saber: about like you said Flinch. But I can understand the reason...instead be thankful to God she isn't the female version of Gawain. No, uhm...Gawaina:p

-Iskander: He's somehow accurate, but also somehow not. He surely is not like the historians imagining him.(and Velvet also mentions that of course:))

-Cú Chulainn: I don't know much about his legend, but he's clearly more like a Berserker...much better as Hercules for that role. He hurled rocks and teared up people with his hands. Not to mention he rarely if ever used Gae Bolg.

-Medusa:Nothing wrong...except she died after she was cursed so it means she would be an ugly snake-haired woman.:p...and her backstory has quite some differences.

-Heracles: Nothing wrong? Well, he's a mindless Berserker now so about personality I can't say much. Same with appearance...moderately acceptable. But his weapon is really strange. He used his club and his bow. I know nothing about a rock-cleaver:p

With the others I either have no problem or low on information. But anyways...why would they be identical to the originals?In Saber's case for example (s)he's the most famous knight. If you ask somone about the most famous knight, most of them are saying either King Arthur or Lancelot. King Arthur actually the most famous knight...and that's why she represents the pinacle of knighthood there. Afterall their legacy and life can differ in a completely different world like Nasuverse...they just only need to resemble it somehow.
And also why would they make her a somewhat greedier person? If you noticed, most of the anime characters are like some kind of ideal persons or idols...especially heroines.

Now back to the previous topic:
Why no one mentioned Sakura?
I think Sakura fits Shirou the best. She understands him and both are caring about each other deeply. And she was the only one who managed to cure him off his self-destructive ideal and make him think about himself, like a normal human should. Perhaps it's partially the story and situations(to a great deal to say), but in Fate he had the chance to throw away his ideal to keep Saber, but he didn't. Perhaps we understand the reason, but also shows Saber would never be able to cure that mindset off him...actually she migh even encourage it. And in Rin's case she was unable to do a thing about it...she just noted she tries her best. And they both were willing to die for the other. Shirou of course somehow do the same in every route, but the other heroines aren't feeling so strongly as Sakura. Saber did risked her life many times to save Shirou, but not for him, but for her honour as a knight and while Rin was reckless she would be totally out of her mind if she's willing to take a suicide mission just for Shirou(or for nearly anything...if she know she has no chance to survive she won't try it.)
And perhaps the sex feels the best for Shirou with Sakura...:p

[Aqua Knight]

Honestly, I'm stuck between Rin and Sakura. I doubt that Shirou and Sakura can break up because Shirou just isn't such a person and Sakura,well, she loves him too much. Moreover, Shirou is caring and wouldn't like to hurt her feelings so if they are together they're together forever.
In Rin's case they can easilt break up but in the end Rin will just cry and come back to Shirou.
Also in terms of chemistry , I agree Rin and Shirou win at all costs , but in terms of love Sakura alone beats them.
Though in future Rin will be able to maintain the passion while I dount about Sakura. Rin x Shirou make a good pair even in future as adults.
Other pairings safe Rin x Shirou look very tragic and I hate tragic romances though sometimes they're the best.
Still Rin is my fav. girl and Rin x Shirou ftw.

[willyvereb]

No...Sakura X Shirou beats it in chemistry.
Man...afterall they are f@cking on daily basis(or more) for a year in the ending...their relationship seems calm and silent, but behind the curtain they're rather fierce...:)
Believe me, he would never get bored of her...especially after all those things he did and sacraficed for her.

[Aqua Knight]

It's only a year....
Though he also has Rin and Rider :naughty:

[willyvereb]

And neither of them dare to anger Sakura and being shallowed by her.:p
She's still capabe to it...the only thing is gone is Avenger, nothing else. Not to mention Shirou would die before think about cheating on her.:)

[Flinch]

Which is why fate/Zero was better. It was a real war, not a giant orgy waiting to happen. People died... especially Uryuu.

[orangejuicetang]

Fate/zero actually wasn't that much like a war in my opinion. It was closer to a battle. Even more appropriate, a battle royal, where a majority of the fights are duels.

[Flinch]

But it wasn't an orgy where everyone knew everyone else. Those always kill the realism of a war. If its you're friend, you're not going to try and kill them. In fate/Zero, nearly every master ended up dying by the end, which was the exact opposite of Fate/Stay Night

[orangejuicetang]

Well, it was kinda predetermined that most of them were going to die. Since it was a prequel. It's like how everybody already knew that most of the Jedi were going to get killed during RotS.

[Flinch]

Even so, it wasn't a giant orgy. Additionally, the age diversity is more practical in f/Z, yet horrible in F/SN. Additionally, you can't really be galvanized to fight a friend.

[orangejuicetang]

If by age diversity you mean they were all adults whereas FS/N was all teenagers, maybe. If you mean actually diversity in age, not so much.
Youngish adult masters= Kiritsugu, Kotomine, Tohsaka, Kariya, el Mellio.
adult-teenagers= Waver, Uryu.

FS/N
Teenagers=Rin, Sakura/Shinji depending on who's master of Rider at the moment, Shirou, Ilya
Adults=Kotmine, Kuzuki, Bazett if you want to count her as Lancer's original master.
Geography=The mountain

[Flinch]

Kiritsugu was in his 30's, Kariya was late 30's to early 40's, Tokiomi was mid-late 40s, Kotomine was mid to late 20s, Kayneth was around Kotomine's age, maybe Kiritsugu. not all are "young" adults.

[Nevflinn]

I understand though that many may not feel the same way as I do, but to me, the way Shirou and Saber interact makes me approve of their relationship more than ShirouxRin or ShirouxSakura. Feel free to disagree though!
At the risk of getting caught in an argument, I completely agree with you. When I think of one, I immediately think of the other, as they're so very much the same. It's a strength that is consistent throughout every scene they're in. When one of them overcomes an inner problem, they also do so for the other, mostly through inspiration rather than attempt. And Fate is the only route that I can consider to be a love story with an action/drama supplement. I'd go into more detail if anyone's that eager to hear, but really, I can't see the story the same way without either of them.

The ironic part was that they made Saber very different from the legend. The downfall of Arthur was not caused by his ideology, but by his failure to listen to others. Additionally, he had greed to an extent. When Viviane demanded he return Excalibur and its scabbard to the people of Avalon for rejecting them in favor of the Christian God (thank you Gwenwyver, for leading to your husband's downfall so early in his life), Arthur blatantly refused, saying that the sword and the scabbard were his and his alone. Viviane then demanded the head of Sir Balin le Savage or the head of Balin's wife as payment for this. Balin killed Vivian with the Axe of the Green Knight (which was next to Gawain's chair, as Bertilak had given it to him as a gift).

I don't think they were trying to say that Arthur's fall was because of his ideology at all. Rather, they used Saber and the Arthurian legend to (quite powerfully, IMO) express the meaning of fate. Arthuria regrets not being good enough to keep Camelot together. And most modern day people see the Arthurian legend as a sad ending, a downer that puts to waste the entire journey. Yet in reality, as Fate wants to stress, that's not how we should see it. Much like how to climb to the top of a mountain is to eventually come back down, or even how to gamble is to eventually lose, so was it that to establish a kingdom and intend to see it through to the end was to see it fall. And as Shirou helped her finally understand, that's okay, as it was much better than to have never tried at all and not helped anyone. That's the point behind chasing after such a dream and hope.

Yeah, I went on a bit of a tangent there.

[Flinch]

Moral of King Arthur and his Noble Knights: DON'T SLEEP WITH YOUR SISTER.

If you sleep with the sister who is older than you by 6-7 years, who ended up taking care of you, bad things will happen. Ironically, Arthur didn't even know he slept with Morgana until after she was caressing his head afterward. He then remembered that his sister did it the exact same way when he was a child (Arthur was still quite young when he did this, late teens to early twenties)

He sister gave birth to Mordred, Arthur tried to kill all the babies born around that time by putting them on a boat. Only Mordred survived, and was found by a fisherman. Ironically, the fisherman gave Mordred to another of Arthur's sisters, Morgause (Queen of Orkney, wife of Lot, motheer of Gawain, Agravain, Gareth, and Gaheris).


Also, another point that can be stressed: DON'T LISTEN TO YOUR WIFE.

Had Arthur not listened to Gwenwyvere (can never decide how I want to spell her name, seen it too many different ways), he would be in the good graces of Avalon. Had that happened, Morgana wouldn't have seen fit to court Accolon (Son of her current husband, Sir Uriens) or to steal Arthur's scabbard from him. Sadly, she threw it into a lake so that no one could have it if Arthur wouldn't let it go back to the rightful owners.

If you look at it, Morgana plays more of a role in Arthur's life than any other person.

[Aqua Knight]

What CG do you think was the best in the whole VN?

I give my vote to the one where Shirou kills Saber in HF. The colours there were nicely done and Shirou's red cloth on the dark scenery looked awesome.

[Usami_Haru]

My favorite is the one where dark Sakura stands in front of the great holy grail

[mAc Chaos]

Probably when Kotomine is standing in front of the Grail.

[Aqua Knight]

What's with that Holy Grail obsession? :naughty:

[Flinch]

Because it's an over glorified wooden cup (Indiana Jones FTW)

[willyvereb]

Best CG? Huh...Kotomine standing before the Great Grail(HF) is quite badass. While when he stands before the loli-Grail it had that definite evil feeling, the scene where he stands before the Great Grail is awesome because of the feeling accompanied with it.
You except him to be long dead and his role as a good guy for change, but then, he's standing before you, with his heart hardly beating. It's like when the hero thinks he defeated the villian, but he makes a surprising comback from after falling into the molten lava. It's obvious he's half-dead, but he's still opposing the hero with all his remaining willpower. The funny thing is that in that scene the hero himself is half-dead too, being already over of his limits and only a rag kept only by his willpower in one piece...
From that introduction you already know something brutal, but epic is coming soon.

Other contestants: -Kirei's dying scene in HF. When he's about to finish of Shirou, but his heart gave up. It's epic because of the big irony of things and surprise. Everyone excepts Shirou somehow beating Kotomine, but in the end it was only that he burned out faster than Shirou.
-Gilgamesh holding Saber upside down by her leg in Fate. It represents his wish with saber quite well and also his personality. A facekick CG would ber awesome too!
-Saber leaning on her blood-strained invisible sword(Saber vs. Berserker, first fight).Powerfull scene which shows sabers determination as a knight.
-Shirou using Nine Lives Blade Works: Much more awesome than him calling UBW in the route with the same name.:p
-Shirou hugging Sakura: While the similar scenes with the other two heroines is a great "aww" scene(fluffy and else), in Sakura's case it had great emotional content. It isn't a simple romantical declaration. It's a much more than that.

[greyhame6]

http://i38.tinypic.com/wu54j7.jpg
simply because of what it means for those two. nice bgm also.

[willyvereb]

And somehow really OOC. You would really like to see her like that, but how? She hardly experienced the life of a woman. For her being such a brigh girl is OOC, even if heartwarming.
(I think you all already know of me that that "last episode" of RN really irritates me of many reason, regarding the plot)

[mAc Chaos]

Really? That scene always almost gave me a lump in my throat.

[frenze12]

OOC? If you follow the story I don't think it's really that OOC (I think rathers depends on whether or not saber is your favourite). Besides isn't their the famous line in fate (said by Gil) "Somethings are beautifull because they can never be obtained"? For me this line was one of the reasons to like that scene regardless of the circumstances. You just like it because it is there, you don't ask why it there.

[willyvereb]

But Saber being all-girly isn't fits her character at all. Do you really think after being raised as a knight for her whole life, experiencing battles chaotic and bloodier Shirou can imagine, seen many deaths and experienced loss, faced with the heavy responsibility of the king, forsake her feelings for the betterment of the country she would run to Shirou all-girlily and brighter than the sun just to greet him?
We don't really know how much she's fallen for him, but obviously isn't as hard to cling into the life in the modern world.

It's sure as hell that the "last mission" scene was heartwarming, but especially because that contradiction...it could be a new side of Saber, but I really doubt it after her experiences she's capable to that. Sorrowful? Well, in some sense yes, but in reality there are many people who had even less. And Saber at least can be statisfied with her achievements and else. There are certainly many other meaningful things, not just falling in love.

[orangejuicetang]

But one of the points of Fate was for Saber to become a bit more selfish and less selfless, to regain the emotions that she threw away when she pulled the sword in the stone. From that point on, she didn't act according to what she would have normally acted, but acted according to how she thought a king should have acted. After she gets sucked up into Avalon at the point of her death or something, there's no longer a reason for her to act as a knight/king anymore. For all we know, that could be her true personality when she takes off the king/knight mask.

[willyvereb]

Which has she never shown to Shirou?...don't give me another reason to question Saber's love for Shirou...;)
And development? Her development really was to be more selfish and to care about Shirou, but please...psychologically I doubt she can be as bright. But let's stall this discussion.

I don't want to argue about a "fanservice" part.
Meeting is enough of impossible, then it's meaningless to talk about whether she's OOC or not. I was a bit stupid to argue about it. Afterall it's meaningless to think about how somone would react in a situation which completely impossible to happen.

[mAc Chaos]

She loved Shirou. They were already dead and in "heaven" pretty much. There wasn't really a need to worry about her duty and all those other things that she did when she was alive. Why would it be so ridiculous to look happy when you see the person you were in love with?

Plus, I remember there was a scene where she said she basically still kept the little girl she was alive inside her, waiting to BURST FREE.

[willyvereb]

Heaven doesn't exist in Nasuverse...that's the problem...and even if it exists actually Saber's out of the circle even then...
That's the meanest problem.

[orangejuicetang]

Plus, I remember there was a scene where she said she basically still kept the little girl she was alive inside her, waiting to BURST FREE.
Pretty much.
Heaven doesn't exist in Nasuverse...that's the problem...and even if it exists actually Saber's out of the circle even then...
That's the meanest problem.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the meet in Avalon? Which is apparently somekind of fairyland or other which keeps you from dying or something.

But I'm tired of discussing this topic already. Let's move onto something else that's interesting.

Assuming that Gilgamesh wasn't in this war, who would have the highest chance of winning? Would Beserker steamrollpwn the competition? Would Saber manage to find someway to regain her power like in some routes and excaliblast everyone? Would Lancer actually go around and use his NP to get one shot kills? Would Archer just stay on the bridge and snipe everyone? Will Rider run around turning all the other servants to stone? Would Caster beamspam magic/rulebreak and steal all the other servants in her efforts to catch them all? Will Assassin just chill on the mountain all day?
Find out next week on~
A new golden challenger appears?
*plays dragonball z theme music

But seriously, ignoring Gilgamesh.

[eiyuu99]

Well, Berserker is seen to be the greatest threat from the start...

[mAc Chaos]

Well... we saw that happen in Fate, basically, except Gilgamesh showed up at the end. They didn't KNOW he was in the war, after all. It looks like it would have come down to Caster and Saber.

[willyvereb]

Well, it depends on many things. If Illya was more serious she would've won the whole war relatively quickly. Killing Saber at first, then steamrolling over Caster. Assassin is useless against the collosus and so much of the attack spells, mind-affecting spells and barriers.And then Lancer and Archer and perhaps Rider(with Shinji as master she isn't a threat).
Also if Sakura actively participates in the war from the start it can change many things...and well, in short just few things should've happened differently and the results are different.
Perhaps without Gil who trolled everyone^^

[orangejuicetang]

So the match between Beserker and Saber would be determined by whether or not Shirou managed to bang Saber yet?

[greyhame6]

can someone pls show me what is this non displayed picture that i am missing?
http://i38.tinypic.com/2i9gw86.jpg

[Nevflinn]

But Saber being all-girly isn't fits her character at all. Do you really think after being raised as a knight for her whole life, experiencing battles chaotic and bloodier Shirou can imagine, seen many deaths and experienced loss, faced with the heavy responsibility of the king, forsake her feelings for the betterment of the country she would run to Shirou all-girlily and brighter than the sun just to greet him?
We don't really know how much she's fallen for him, but obviously isn't as hard to cling into the life in the modern world.

It's sure as hell that the "last mission" scene was heartwarming, but especially because that contradiction...it could be a new side of Saber, but I really doubt it after her experiences she's capable to that. Sorrowful? Well, in some sense yes, but in reality there are many people who had even less. And Saber at least can be statisfied with her achievements and else. There are certainly many other meaningful things, not just falling in love.
I am so gonna regret posting as it'll just start a mindless internet argument had a funny feeling that there'd be some people who wouldn't get the point of that scene.

Being 'girly' about it? I really don't see any gender issues here; she's just happy. I don't blame you for being surprised - it's the only time in the entire game where we see her accept genuine, unhindered happiness. One of the main points of them meeting in Avalon was to prove that there was reason to be happy at the end of their journeys.

To say that Saber can't move on and actually feel good is to, as I can't stress enough, completely miss the entire point of Fate/Stay Night. Regardless of the pressure of whatever fate you tread, of how difficult the past has been or how painful the future will be, to plough on anyway - especially with a smile on your face. The series' strongest characters are the ones with moral integrity, self respect and the ability to keep face regardless (e.g. Alexander, Cúchulainn, Saber [thanks to Shirou in Fate] etc.), while the weaker ones are those unable to move on/live solely for themselves and allow their souls to be destroyed (e.g. Shinji, UBW Archer [prior to his fight with Shirou], etc. Saber skims across this line in UBW and is condemned to it in HF). To say that neither of them deserve to be happy is arrogantly repulsive; to say that they can't is utter foolishness.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Saber left because she had to, and the only way to stick around would involve letting the grail exist, Angra Mainyu be born, and engulf the entire world just so she and Shirou could huggle.

Well, it depends on many things. If Illya was more serious she would've won the whole war relatively quickly. Killing Saber at first, then steamrolling over Caster. Assassin is useless against the collosus and so much of the attack spells, mind-affecting spells and barriers.And then Lancer and Archer and perhaps Rider(with Shinji as master she isn't a threat).
Also if Sakura actively participates in the war from the start it can change many things...and well, in short just few things should've happened differently and the results are different.
Perhaps without Gil who trolled everyone^^
Though if Ilya had been more vocal and attacked everyone, everyone would have ganged up on her in turn without hesitation.

[Aqua Knight]

No one really knew who were the Masters themselves.

[greyhame6]

think its much simpler to explain this way: saber joined the war as king arthur & left as arturia :)
Though if Ilya had been more vocal and attacked everyone, everyone would have ganged up on her in turn without hesitation.
thats assuming if anyone is left alive afterwards :heh:

[kakakka]

can someone pls show me what is this non displayed picture that i am missing?
http://i38.tinypic.com/2i9gw86.jpg

Hhmmm...

Is that part from the extra images, like outside from Fate, UBW and HF folders?

I think you need to collect all of the Tiger Stamps first. Then go to the list of endings. In there you'll see the cards showing the endings you finished. At the bottom right corner, there's like a tiger. If you collected all of the Tiger Stamps, It'll show that the tiger is roaring. Click that, then it'll show some sort of ending speech about the game. The pics from that will go to that space where you don't have pic.

If you don't know how to get a Tiger Stamp, you need to get bad choices first in the game, and when it ask you to attend the Tiger Dojo, you have to attend it to get the stamp. One stamp per bad/dead end scenario.

[greyhame6]

ahh... yea. thats the pic of taiga & Ilya. had 2 reinstall game so lost it all; i remember it now. thx a lot for ur help

[Chris38]

Hey guys, I played the game once ( completed it all ), but without the voices from Realta Nua.

Know I'm playing it again, with the voices, and well for some reason. Rin's voice is a bit different from what I expected of her character. ( maybe I just need to get used to it )

What do you guys think about the character's voices in the game.

[Aqua Knight]

Everyone is perfect is a I have to say.For me Rin's voice is very fitting.
But sometimes Sakura's voice just irritates me.

[willyvereb]

Maybe yes, but her VA did a great job at exchanging tones and her acting at the end of HF was excellent. Still if I have to choose best pharse in the game then it should be Shirou's:
"Kotomine...KIREII!"
That's why his interactions with Kirei was so amusing. In him Shirou has found the perfect villain he searched for...afterall every hero needs a villain.;)

[grylsyjaeger]

I've got a question about Realta Nua. Like most I've got the PC version patched to english with Realta Nua's voices but I was looking at getting a copy of Realta Nua for shits and giggles but the screenshots I saw had completely different art work?

Does Realta Nua have new artwork?

[Aqua Knight]

It has slightly different CG and it has more of them also sex scenes are replaced. But there's no such a patch for a PC version, though there's one that adds some CG(very few mostly HF route) to the game.

[DeusX]

http://i38.tinypic.com/wu54j7.jpg
simply because of what it means for those two. nice bgm also.

where did this pic appear? O.o

[grylsyjaeger]

where did this pic appear? O.o

When you clear all the endings and have the Realta Nua patch installed - the extra scenes one - the title screen has a "View Last Episode" option under the normal game options.

It's a pretty heart warming scene. I just finished it a couple of minutes ago and I'm still wondering how to take it. It was great in the regards to a happy ending but I guess I still wanted an ending where Saber stayed by Shirou's side after the War however impossible it was.

Still great to see a nice ending for the two but sad to have finally finished this game... Onto the anime!

I'm missing a CG though.

It's in the "Another" gallery. There are three images, I have two of them. They are of Shirou brandishing items (a fist full of magic in the first and Caliburn in the third) with a vicious look on his face but I don't have the second CG. Anyone help me out here?

[Aqua Knight]

I wish there was a special "Mind of steel" branch in HF.
And from what I've heard there should have been Ilya's path,right? The one where Shirou becomes Archer?

[DeusX]

When you clear all the endings and have the Realta Nua patch installed - the extra scenes one - the title screen has a "View Last Episode" option under the normal game options.

i got F/SN installed and i need the nua patch to get those scene?

[orangejuicetang]

I wish there was a special "Mind of steel" branch in HF.
And from what I've heard there should have been Ilya's path,right? The one where Shirou becomes Archer?

There was an Ilya path in production, but it got cut, similar to Sachin's path from Tsukihime. Isn't it sad, Ilya?

Ilya's path is not necessarily the path where Shirou becomes Archer. All we know is that Ilya survived Shirou/Archer's war and then died one year later, and that Shirou/Archer cared greatly for her. That doesn't automatically translate into Ilya is Archer's route. It could, but probably not.

[grylsyjaeger]

i got F/SN installed and i need the nua patch to get those scene?

Do you have the Realta Nua voices installed?

Then there's this patch which adds a few extra scenes from the Realta Nua game and adds the Last Episode.

http://rnpatch.blogspot.com/2009/05/realta-nua-patch-version-32.html

There was an Ilya path in production, but it got cut, similar to Sachin's path from Tsukihime. Isn't it sad, Ilya?

Ilya's path is not necessarily the path where Shirou becomes Archer. All we know is that Ilya survived Shirou/Archer's war and then died one year later, and that Shirou/Archer cared greatly for her. That doesn't automatically translate into Ilya is Archer's route. It could, but probably not.

I always thought the Fate route would be the path that leads Shirou to becoming Archer since UBW creates a contradiction in how Shirou becomes powerful.

In Fate he stays true to his superhero dream. When asked if he wanted to use the Holy Grail to change the past, he said things taken away couldn't be given back; a hero only cleans up the situation they find themselves in.

In the Last Episode which is just a continuation of Fate it has Shirou continuously travelling trying to do what little good he could. Which to me sounds like Archer's life before becoming a heroic spirit.

[Usami_Haru]

But I think that Nasu confirmed that Archer came from the ''minds of steel'' path for sure.

[orangejuicetang]

No. Nasu said that the fs/n anime was the closest to Archer's route. Ilya has to be alive in order for the slightest chance of Archer's route, eliminating ubw and hf. I'm pretty sure that fate route Shirou does not become Archer. He has the highest chance to become Archer out of the three routes, but even that's like a 5% chance as opposed to 0%. Besides, apparently Shirou ends up in Avalon following fate route according to Last Episode or something, and if that's true, there's pretty much a 0% chance that Shirou became Archer then.

[grylsyjaeger]

No. Nasu said that the fs/n anime was the closest to Archer's route. Ilya has to be alive in order for the slightest chance of Archer's route, eliminating ubw and hf. I'm pretty sure that fate route Shirou does not become Archer. He has the highest chance to become Archer out of the three routes, but even that's like a 5% chance as opposed to 0%. Besides, apparently Shirou ends up in Avalon following fate route according to Last Episode or something, and if that's true, there's pretty much a 0% chance that Shirou became Archer then.

He may not have actually "became" the Archer as a Servant but I think he still would have matured and became the Superhero he wanted to be and perfect his projection and Reality Marble magic.

And just succumb to old age and his reward for endlessly searching for Saber and doing good deeds was to be reunited with her after his death.

[orangejuicetang]

Archer couldn't "save" Saber. Fate Shirou did manage to "save" Saber. That alone probably changed his personality alot. If he had become the superhero he had wanted to be, he'd end up like Archer, a person stuck saving other people for all eternity. Chances are he wouldn't end up with Saber after his death. I don't even have any idea how the hell he ended up in Avalon or anything like that. Does anyone want to explain?

[Flinch]

The inability to save everyone is what breaks Shiro. Simple as that.

[grylsyjaeger]

I don't even have any idea how the hell he ended up in Avalon or anything like that. Does anyone want to explain?

Both Saber and Shirou used the sheath as the gateway to Avalon at their final fight. Perhaps this has something to do with how Shirou went there after his death as being a former user of Avalon. It was inside his body - albeit dorment - for ten years so something might have rubbed off...

Regardless the Last Episode is pretty much the happy ending people wanted for the two. A bit far fetched in how it happens but I almost prefer the sad True End to Fate than the Last Episode. Really makes their parting a huge gut punch.

[Nevflinn]

Archer couldn't "save" Saber. Fate Shirou did manage to "save" Saber. That alone probably changed his personality alot. If he had become the superhero he had wanted to be, he'd end up like Archer, a person stuck saving other people for all eternity. Chances are he wouldn't end up with Saber after his death. I don't even have any idea how the hell he ended up in Avalon or anything like that. Does anyone want to explain?

Before I say anything pointless, how do you think it changed him?

I've been thinking about that, too. The 'how' is very much open to interpretation, and I agree with fallschirmjager's assessments, but after deliberation I think it went like this:

1. Shirou lives out his dream as best he can, becomes Archer, and spends his life as a hero (strongly suggested by the presence of the Unlimited Blade Works and shattered cities). Presumably he is more content with his path than Archer was. It's strongly emphasised that while through his actions he has become something meaningful to many people, the person he was before was all but forgotten ("Even if your actions are meaningful, you yourself, all the way until the end, are worthless."), but if he's learned anything (i.e. the writers didn't contradict their aesops), then he has no regrets, is content with having done all he could, and faces his end peacefully. It's the only way he could have avoided becoming a counter guardian.

2. Saber, as opposed to taking her place in the Throne of Heroes (Avalon), waits in a state of limbo for an eternity/1600 years/a very very very very very long time. Merlin strongly dissuades this, preferring her to take an assured rest immediately rather than throw her soul away for someone who will likely never make it. But by doing so, she keeps a path open for whoever is worthy of the same place as hers to exist in the same domain.

Long story short, Shirou's life has to rival the entire Arthurian legend at the least.

It sounds like epic sequel potential if you ask me. And who here doesn't want to see Aeneas vs. Odysseus? That would just be epic.


Regardless the Last Episode is pretty much the happy ending people wanted for the two. A bit far fetched in how it happens but I almost prefer the sad True End to Fate than the Last Episode. Really makes their parting a huge gut punch.
Both endings are fantastic for two different reasons. In retrospect, I'd have been really disappointed with Fate if any of its initial endings, Good or True, had Saber staying, because then I wouldn't have gotten the point. We wouldn't have seen Shirou's mature, optimistic summary to something which would have otherwise broken him, and we wouldn't have seen Saber content with all she could have done after the Battle of Camlann. Fate/Stay Night is at its strongest when it's about its namesake, the theme of fate, how it is both beyond our control and yet completely within it, and this is best exemplified with their departure. The only conclusion that is fitting with the true, intial end to Fate is The Last Episode.

I love The Last Episode simply because of how excellent a job it does as the epilogue to the entire series. How no matter what comes in whatever path we take in life, that we keep going, resisting the will to succumb to it, and that we preserve who we are, the soul, from its actions and our own frustrations. It couldn't have done a better job of hammering that home, of exemplifying how important that is.

The inability to save everyone is what breaks Shiro. Simple as that.
At least not without losing yourself. And that's something we just can't have.

[orangejuicetang]

Before I say anything pointless, how do you think it changed him?

I've been thinking about that, too. The 'how' is very much open to interpretation, and I agree with fallschirmjager's assessments, but after deliberation I think it went like this:

1. Shirou lives out his dream as best he can, becomes Archer, and spends his life as a hero (strongly suggested by the presence of the Unlimited Blade Works and shattered cities). Presumably he is more content with his path than Archer was. It's strongly emphasised that while through his actions he has become something meaningful to many people, the person he was before was all but forgotten ("Even if your actions are meaningful, you yourself, all the way until the end, are worthless."), but if he's learned anything (i.e. the writers didn't contradict their aesops), then he has no regrets, is content with having done all he could, and faces his end peacefully. It's the only way he could have avoided becoming a counter guardian.

2. Saber, as opposed to taking her place in the Throne of Heroes (Avalon), waits in a state of limbo for an eternity/1600 years/a very very very very very long time. Merlin strongly dissuades this, preferring her to take an assured rest immediately rather than throw her soul away for someone who will likely never make it. But by doing so, she keeps a path open for whoever is worthy of the same place as hers to exist in the same domain.

Long story short, Shirou's life has to rival the entire Arthurian legend at the least.

It sounds like epic sequel potential if you ask me. And who here doesn't want to see Aeneas vs. Odysseus? That would just be epic.



I don't know how it changed him. However, just looking at Fate Shirou at least, if he failed in "saving" Saber, wouldn't it be fairly logical that he would change a bit? Archer is, for all intents and purposes, a broken man. He lost everything he cared about. Couldn't save Saber. Couldn't save Ilya. Lost his lover, whoever the hell that was. Lost all his friends. Betrayed by his ideal. ect. Shirou, on the other hand, managed to save Saber, and probably won't take up a new lover. As for changes, presumably he wouldn't be as cynical and bitter, among other things.

I'm reading your first interpretation, and I'm a bit confused about some parts. What do you mean by (strongly suggested by the presence of the Unlimited Blade Works and shattered cities)? What shattered cities? What do you mean by the presence of Unlimited Blade Works? Yes, he still has Unlimited Blade Works, but just by having it doesn't indicate anything about him going around being a hero. Yes, he would probably go around and try to save everybody because, well, he's Fate Shirou. Also he's learned anything (i.e. the writers didn't contradict their aesops), then he has no regrets, is content with having done all he could, and faces his end peacefully. It's the only way he could have avoided becoming a counter guardian.
No. The only way to avoid being a counter guardian is to simply not make a pact with Alaya. Going by this, when Archer died, he didn't have any regrets either. It's only after he died that he became more cynical and bitter. If he follows his ideal to the logical conclusion and becomes a superhero, he turns into Archer. That's who Archer is, Shirou's ideal.

As for your second interpretation, where the hell does Merlin come into it? If Saber's in Avalon, how the hell would Merlin even get in there? Throw her soul away? What?

[Nevflinn]

I don't know how it changed him. However, just looking at Fate Shirou at least, if he failed in "saving" Saber, wouldn't it be fairly logical that he would change a bit? Archer is, for all intents and purposes, a broken man. He lost everything he cared about. Couldn't save Saber. Couldn't save Ilya. Lost his lover, whoever the hell that was. Lost all his friends. Betrayed by his ideal. ect. Shirou, on the other hand, managed to save Saber, and probably won't take up a new lover. As for changes, presumably he wouldn't be as cynical and bitter, among other things.

Ah, sorry, I misread the "did" for Fate Shirou as "didn't". Whoops! :heh:

In which case, I pretty much agree with you. I can't see Fate Shirou losing his spirit.

I'm reading your first interpretation, and I'm a bit confused about some parts. What do you mean by ? What shattered cities? What do you mean by the presence of Unlimited Blade Works? Yes, he still has Unlimited Blade Works, but just by having it doesn't indicate anything about him going around being a hero.
They were in the background during the narration in the latter half of The Last Episode.

Yes, he would probably go around and try to save everybody because, well, he's Fate Shirou. Also
No. The only way to avoid being a counter guardian is to simply not make a pact with Alaya. Going by this, when Archer died, he didn't have any regrets either. It's only after he died that he became more cynical and bitter. If he follows his ideal to the logical conclusion and becomes a superhero, he turns into Archer. That's who Archer is, Shirou's ideal.
That was me assuming he wouldn't make the pact with Alaya this time around.

As for your second interpretation, where the hell does Merlin come into it? If Saber's in Avalon, how the hell would Merlin even get in there? Throw her soul away? What?
I'm just trying to judge it by what was there, here. Merlin was seen talking with Saber in that place with the pendulum (which I'm assuming is a limbo of sorts).

Don't ask me to be perfect here, we have a hard time making hardline sense of the Nasuverse when it's supposed to be obvious. :heh:

[DJ Trouble]

Really makes their parting a huge gut punch.

I just finished Heaven's Feel . . .

The whole game feels like a huge gut punch.

[grylsyjaeger]

I just finished Heaven's Feel . . .

The whole game feels like a huge gut punch.

Get all the endings and watch the Last Episode if you want a happish ending for Shirou and Saber.

[LostHanyou]

Does anyone feel as if Berserker and Gilgamesh are randomly GAR and then randomly dead?

Berserker in Fate = Everyone spends the first half of the VN worrying about how GAR Berserker is because of how easily he bitch slapped Saber. Archer kills him 6 times, which isn't too unbelievable because of UBW. But then... Shirou kills him 6 times with PROJECTED caliburn. Gilgamesh later uses the ORIGINAL caliburn against Shirou, and it's just a regular sword... Did not even kill him once.

Berserker in UBW = "HOLY SHIT DID HE JUST TAKE CALADBOLG 2 IN THE FACE? I THINK HE DID!" Then Gilgamesh kills him twelve times, because for some reason servants with A rank agility still cannot run... Nope, instead they have to WALK towards the enemy. It certainly made everyone feel GAR for Berserker, but it wasn't very effective in winning.

Gilgamesh in UBW = Kill's Berserker while laughing about it. Gets shit done. Suddenly turns into a whimpering school girl when Shirou activates UBW. Berserker and Lancer couldn't get to Gilgamesh, but surprise! Shirou not only gets to Gilgamesh, he catches up to a RUNNING Gilgamesh! A rank agility couldn't do it, but Shirou can.

Gilgamesh in Heaven's Feel = Dies in 2 seconds from the grail. A little later, Berserker lasts 20x longer fighting saber alter, true assassin, AND the grail, while only losing one of his lives. This is the same Berserker Gilgamesh slaughtered in the previous route.

What I think? Nasu was "Okay well I made these characters too awesome. Time to pull off some ridiculous plot move to get them killed off."
Gilgamesh is my least favorite charater, but damn. At least stick with what you create.

[orangejuicetang]

Berserker in UBW = "HOLY SHIT DID HE JUST TAKE CALADBOLG 2 IN THE FACE? I THINK HE DID!" Then Gilgamesh kills him twelve times, because for some reason servants with A rank agility still cannot run... Nope, instead they have to WALK towards the enemy. It certainly made everyone feel GAR for Berserker, but it wasn't very effective in winning.

Gilgamesh in UBW = Kill's Berserker while laughing about it. Gets shit done. Suddenly turns into a whimpering school girl when Shirou activates UBW. Berserker and Lancer couldn't get to Gilgamesh, but surprise! Shirou not only gets to Gilgamesh, he catches up to a RUNNING Gilgamesh! A rank agility couldn't do it, but Shirou can.

I'll let someone else take care of the other ones. For Beserker, he was getting pummeled by a rain of swords from GoB at the time, and protecting Ilya at the same time. Hard to run when your getting pushed back at the same time by a rain of swords.

For Giglamesh inside of UBW. This has been argued and dissected a thousand times. First, Gilgamesh doesn't run from Shirou until the very end of the battle, and we have no idea if Shirou could have caught up or not, because UBW was dispelled at that moment by the backlash from Excalibur. Second, Gilgamesh is actually pretty smart. The problem is that his arrogance is still a hundred times greater than his intelligence. Shirou insults Gilgamesh's collection of swords, so Gilgamesh decides to fight Shirou with only swords to prove how superior his are, even though he's at a severe disadvantage.

[grylsyjaeger]

Can anyone help me find these missing CGs?

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/5959/hf1p.th.jpg (http://img687.imageshack.us/i/hf1p.jpg/)
http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/9494/anotherw.th.jpg (http://img517.imageshack.us/i/anotherw.jpg/)

[LostHanyou]

For Giglamesh inside of UBW. This has been argued and dissected a thousand times. First, Gilgamesh doesn't run from Shirou until the very end of the battle, and we have no idea if Shirou could have caught up or not, because UBW was dispelled at that moment by the backlash from Excalibur. Second, Gilgamesh is actually pretty smart. The problem is that his arrogance is still a hundred times greater than his intelligence. Shirou insults Gilgamesh's collection of swords, so Gilgamesh decides to fight Shirou with only swords to prove how superior his are, even though he's at a severe disadvantage.

Gilgamesh tries to retreat but is cornered by Shirou, at which time he tries pulling out Ea and Shirou lops off his arm. Then Gilgamesh breaks out into a RUN, and it's described that Shirou is faster than Gilgamesh, and even Gilgamesh realizes that. I understand that UBW is supposed to be the gate of Babylon counter, I just found it extremely dumb that Shirou basically rushes a servant and wins.

For the Berserker one... Okay, I'll accept the Ilya part. I feel as if that's a lousy excuse because Ilya didn't die in Archer's unlimited blade works, and the manga shows that Archer is perfectly willing to kill Ilya.

[orangejuicetang]

Gilgamesh doesn't try to retreat until his arm gets cut off by Shirou when he reaches for Ea. He then jumps backwards, and tries to retreat. I rewatched the scene to look for what your talking about, and at the end, I'm pretty sure the "But I'm faster" thing is referring to the speed at which Shirou is drawing his Noble Phantasm, since the line right before is "as he pulls out a Noble Phantasm from behind him." Because that's the entire reason UBW is the counter to GoB, is because it draws out the Noble Phantasms faster.

I find it really difficult to believe that Archer would try to kill Ilya, especially considering that Ilya dying was one of the things that turned Archer into, well, Archer. It was apparently one his biggest regrets or something, that he was unable to save Ilya/keep her from dying. Besides, I don't think that Archer actually used UBW on Beserker at any point during the visual novel. Didn't the Fate route scene sort of imply that he fought Beserker in melee combat instead of using UBW?

[LostHanyou]

The intermission merely said that Berserker was killed 6 times, each with a different attack. It never mentions UBW, but I can't imagine Archer having the ability to project weapons stronger than caladbolg so many times without his reality marble. In UBW Archer stated if he projected Excalibur he wouldn't have the mana to use it, and considering caladbolg is A rank, just a little below Excalibur, one could assume he wouldn't have the mana to kill Berserker more than twice. But then again, it's hard to compare Berserker's strength from different routes/moments because of what I said in the original post.

"Gilgamesh retreats. I close the distance at once, pull out a sword, and slash at him."
That is pre-arm loss
"He jumps back. Avoiding the twin blades, he retreats still further."
Unless you're telling me he's jumping backwards some more like a bunny, that sounds like running.

[orangejuicetang]

It's hard to imagine Beserker giving Archer enough time to fully cast the incantation for UBW, and going from the intermission, it said that Beserker regretted being Mad because if he was sane, he could enjoy the battle in swordsmanship. It's hard to imagine Archer even bothering to use melee weapons in UBW considering that he would probably just swordrain. Also, Excalibur is ridiculously powerful. It's more powerful than Caliburn, which is enough to take out 6 of Beserker's lives in one attack, and a point blank Excalibur blast may be enough to take out all of Beserker's lives at once, although I'm not sure where I read that second part. But either way, Excalibur presumably uses alot more prana than Caladborg.

I interpreted the first part as him moving slowly backwards while parrying Shirou's attacks. If he was running then, he certainly couldn't block the sword slashes. Unless you want to imply that he was running backwards. For the second thing, I thought it was exactly like him jumping backwards, similar to Lancer suddenly leaping back twenty meters of however much it was during his second fight with Archer. And to be honest, I find it hard to picture Gilgamesh, who ignores the perfect chance to kill his enemies in UBW because his coat might get dirty, would do something like running away from somebody. Or running at all.

[mAc Chaos]

"Gilgamesh retreats. I close the distance at once, pull out a sword, and slash at him."
That is pre-arm loss
"He jumps back. Avoiding the twin blades, he retreats still further."
Unless you're telling me he's jumping backwards some more like a bunny, that sounds like running.

I thought of that scene as, Shirou swipes at him, and he barely jumps back avoiding it.

[LostHanyou]

Again, caliburn also did nothing a normal sword wouldn't do when Gilgamesh slashed Shirou with the original. Caliburn taking out 6 of Berserker's lives was just dumb.
More of a question than a point, didn't Saber Alter use Excalibur when fighting Berserker? I don't think she ever said the words, but the scene makes it seem as if she used it.

I suppose I can see Gilgamesh walking backwards, though I wouldn't really call that much of a retreat.

[willyvereb]

Anyways It's a serious joke than Shirou can even hit Gilgamesh... Nasu trippled his stupidity(to his CIS he added 2 times of PIS) in UBW to make him hold back to "human level" even as he was cornered to make Shirou at least land a hit on him. Otherwise at the first clash of swords he would've ended up exactly like at the Bridge scene of Fate... tenths of meters away with his guts splattered(though he miraculously survived).

And Berserker can't rin, because of the continous storm of NPs. Also because Gilgamesh didn't exactly aim at him but Illya to make him block the coming NPs with his body.
Gilgamesh isn't an idiot to face the hero with the best physical stats in such a short range without a plan.

[faiz blaster]

Anyways It's a serious joke than Shirou can even hit Gilgamesh... Nasu trippled his stupidity(to his CIS he added 2 times of PIS) in UBW to make him hold back to "human level" even as he was cornered to make Shirou at least land a hit on him. Otherwise at the first clash of swords he would've ended up exactly like at the Bridge scene of Fate... tenths of meters away with his guts splattered(though he miraculously survived).

And Berserker can't rin, because of the continous storm of NPs. Also because Gilgamesh didn't exactly aim at him but Illya to make him block the coming NPs with his body.
Gilgamesh isn't an idiot to face the hero with the best physical stats in such a short range without a plan.

You seems to be missing something really important about that particular scene: the whole thing wasn't much a battle between Shirou and Gilgamesh, but more a fight of Unlimited Blade Works against Gate of Babylon. True, Gil was CARELESS (not stupid, there is a difference), but you have to understand the whole thing that lead to that.

First of all lets make one thing clear: Gilgamesh is the strongest character in the whole story (all of them). Even Dark Sakura whose power matched a Counter Guardian is no threat for him. He is the only absolute one standing at the top and he knows it, but that is also the root of his undoing in all the routes.

You see with the knowledge of his superiority comes the confidence of that superiority. Knowing that there is nobody more powerful than him results in Gilgamesh never taking his fights seriously. He never fights at 100% simply because most of his enemies can be defeated without him having to do so. That in turn causes him to let his guard down at moments that he shouldn't. Proof being that every time that Gil died he happened to be surprised by something.

Lets see the UBW fight specifically.

During the first good part of that battle, Gil was just toying around with Shirou. He was firing his swords one at the time and giving the boy time to project copies to defend himself. True, he saw Shirou as an enemy and took the whole think a little more seriously than normal (he even took Ea out at one point. Something that he himself said that should be only used against someone on the level of Saber), but that was more due a personal grudge than actually seeing Shirou as a threat (for some reason Gil seems to hate things that can multiply infinitely, something that Emiya can do with his projections). Still, in no point at that time we see Gilgamesh actually go all out on Shirou.

Things start to turn around when Shirou deploys his Reality Marble. Now at that point anyone else would start to get serious and kill the brat at once. And probably Gil himself would also have done so, had Shirou not made that whole "there is no such thing that a copy can't beat the original" talk. Besides carelessness, Gilgamesh's other greatest flaw is his pride, and the thing that he has the most pride about is his treasury of originals that Shirou just insulted with his speech. So, with Gilgamesh being Gilgamesh, all reason was disregarded and the fight turned into a competition of weapons.

Gilgamesh is the greatest hero that overwhelms other Heroic Spirit with an infinite supply of weapons. There is no proper hero that can match Gilgamesh in a competition of Noble Phantasms, but Emiya is an oddity that actually can (they are not said to be natural enemies for nothing). So here Gilgamesh sees himself with two great disadvantages: 1. Shirou has all his swords pretty much at hand, while he has to take his out of inside Gate of Babylon first; 2. with a significant difference of speed against him, Gilgamesh is forced to destroy his own weapons in order to protect himself from Shirou's attacks; By the time he realized his mistake, Gilgamesh was already stuck in a vicious cycle of draw weapon-defend against incoming attack-weapon destroyed-repeat.

So ultimately, Shirou's victory against was due both because Gilgamesh never took him as seriously as he should until it was too late, and because of exploiting the flaw that Gilgamesh's weapons albeit countless were not infinite, while Shirou's were.

[Reliability]

I wonder what would happen if Archer fought Alter saber

:O

[Aqua Knight]

Well, Shirou defeated her in HF, though partly,but I think Alter didn't see a threat in him so she lost. Fighting Archer she would be more concentrated etc. etc. I think she wins. But Archer can project Rule Breaker and cut Saber from Sakura. So there's no definite answer.

Did Archer, being a counter guardian, have any advantages, like higher mana or prana or whatever?

[Flinch]

Seeing how he was nothing more than a spirit as a counter guardian, he didn't have a real body. I guess he never could get ill, or hung over. Don't htink mana would be affected by it.

[Aqua Knight]

Wasn't it that he had more something like "independent action" or what's its name?

[MonkeyDude]

Things start to turn around when Shirou deploys his Reality Marble. Now at that point anyone else would start to get serious and kill the brat at once. And probably Gil himself would also have done so, had Shirou not made that whole "there is no such thing that a copy can't beat the original" talk. Besides carelessness, Gilgamesh's other greatest flaw is his pride, and the thing that he has the most pride about is his treasury of originals that Shirou just insulted with his speech. So, with Gilgamesh being Gilgamesh, all reason was disregarded and the fight turned into a competition of weapons.

Gilgamesh is the greatest hero that overwhelms other Heroic Spirit with an infinite supply of weapons. There is no proper hero that can match Gilgamesh in a competition of Noble Phantasms, but Emiya is an oddity that actually can (they are not said to be natural enemies for nothing). So here Gilgamesh sees himself with two great disadvantages: 1. Shirou has all his swords pretty much at hand, while he has to take his out of inside Gate of Babylon first; 2. with a significant difference of speed against him, Gilgamesh is forced to destroy his own weapons in order to protect himself from Shirou's attacks; By the time he realized his mistake, Gilgamesh was already stuck in a vicious cycle of draw weapon-defend against incoming attack-weapon destroyed-repeat.

So ultimately, Shirou's victory against was due both because Gilgamesh never took him as seriously as he should until it was too late, and because of exploiting the flaw that Gilgamesh's weapons albeit countless were not infinite, while Shirou's were.

I would just like to add that a lot of the fights in FSN were won simply due to plot armor. Even if Shirou was indeed able to project faster than Gil could call weapons from GoB, we are fully aware that he can launch a "sword rain" attack at will while satisfying his pride of "the original is better" thing. Then let's not forget that the mechanics of UBW makes any projected weapon inferior to the original. If Heroic Spirit Emiya is the culmination of everything Shirou could be, then why is it that Shirou's projected crap is suddenly stronger than the original? Oh right its because he "channeled" all the projections Emiya has seen and somehow made it his own as well as the culminated experience that lies within the weapon...i.e. plot hax.

Calling them natural enemies is fine and all, but that's like comparing a mongoose and a snake when the snake has a mounter laser beam on it with an automatic CIWS. That mongoose has a fighting chance, but the snake can disintegrate the mongoose whenever he damn well feels like it.

So in short, part of Shirou's plot armor win is due to Gil suddenly losing the usage of his vast arsenal of weaponry in favor of humoring the dude who just beat his vastly superior counterpart due to his "conviction." I'm not against the weaker of the combatants pulling off a miracle victory, it just has to be believable. UBW route? Had to suspend reality to stomach Shirou beating both Archer and Gil. I mean at least Fate Shirou had Avalon protecting him to explain a couple of things, but Archer losing because of being overwhelmed by "conviction" and Gil losing because he refused to use a move he uses on anyone while satisfying his pride? Meh is all I can say!

[Flinch]

Wasn't it that he had more something like "independent action" or what's its name?

Independent Action is an ability given to those servants who isolated themselves from everyone else, truly being independent. It is required for Archers (maximum of Rank B) and for Assassins (Rank A maximum) for them to obtain their edge. If an Archer must be near their Master, they lose a great advantage; though, not as much as Assassin.

[orangejuicetang]

I would just like to add that a lot of the fights in FSN were won simply due to plot armor. Even if Shirou was indeed able to project faster than Gil could call weapons from GoB, we are fully aware that he can launch a "sword rain" attack at will while satisfying his pride of "the original is better" thing. Then let's not forget that the mechanics of UBW makes any projected weapon inferior to the original. If Heroic Spirit Emiya is the culmination of everything Shirou could be, then why is it that Shirou's projected crap is suddenly stronger than the original? Oh right its because he "channeled" all the projections Emiya has seen and somehow made it his own as well as the culminated experience that lies within the weapon...i.e. plot hax.

Calling them natural enemies is fine and all, but that's like comparing a mongoose and a snake when the snake has a mounter laser beam on it with an automatic CIWS. That mongoose has a fighting chance, but the snake can disintegrate the mongoose whenever he damn well feels like it.

So in short, part of Shirou's plot armor win is due to Gil suddenly losing the usage of his vast arsenal of weaponry in favor of humoring the dude who just beat his vastly superior counterpart due to his "conviction." I'm not against the weaker of the combatants pulling off a miracle victory, it just has to be believable. UBW route? Had to suspend reality to stomach Shirou beating both Archer and Gil. I mean at least Fate Shirou had Avalon protecting him to explain a couple of things, but Archer losing because of being overwhelmed by "conviction" and Gil losing because he refused to use a move he uses on anyone while satisfying his pride? Meh is all I can say!

I am almost completely sure that Gilgamesh was using Gate of Babylon's swordrain inside UBW, and Shirou was using UBW own's swordrain to cancel out GoB's swordrain. Shirou's projections aren't stronger than the original, even in UBW, and they will never will be. I don't know where you got that idea. But anyway, Gilgamesh does use swordrain on Shirou. It's just canceled out by Shirou's own swordrain.

Anyway, do you mean if Archer was summoned as a counter-guardian to fight someone instead of a Servant? Or do you mean that if being summoned from a counter-guardian instead of summoning a true Heroic Spirit makes any difference?

[willyvereb]

The problem is that Shirou actually charged Gilgamesh with a sword twice and Gil was CORNERED by it. Ctazyness and total impossibility. A newbie fighter with borrowed experience from his projected weapons should be enough against a hero like Gil(who half-seriously but fought somehow almost at an equal level with Saber in Fate). And then there's teh totally obvious difference in speed, reflexes, strenght and else.
After Shirou activated UBW Nasu intentionally nerfed Gil and made him act like someone who doesn't know how to fight.
That's why I am always pissed at that last fight. Totally unbelievable, contradictory to the things previously stated and also reeks from plot armor and else.
And about the sword rain: I doubt Shirou can block it. How can you block a rain of "sticks" with another rain? It needs about 5 times more concentration and aiming ability than to the attacker. I think it happened otherwise. Afterall Gilgamesh had no intention to take him fully seriously. He wanted to defeat his projections at any costs.

So in short SHirou didn't beat him. Shirou beat a clown masquaraded as Gilgamesh there.

[MonkeyDude]

I am almost completely sure that Gilgamesh was using Gate of Babylon's swordrain inside UBW, and Shirou was using UBW own's swordrain to cancel out GoB's swordrain. Shirou's projections aren't stronger than the original, even in UBW, and they will never will be. I don't know where you got that idea. But anyway, Gilgamesh does use swordrain on Shirou. It's just canceled out by Shirou's own swordrain.

Anyway, do you mean if Archer was summoned as a counter-guardian to fight someone instead of a Servant? Or do you mean that if being summoned from a counter-guardian instead of summoning a true Heroic Spirit makes any difference?

The post I quoted says that Gil was forced to destroy his own weaponry just to counter Shirou's own swords. This should be impossible given that Shirou's own weapons should be inferior to Gil, but somehow he was forced back by the faker who can never beat the original? Then of course the plot hax Nasu use to justify Shirou being able to pressure him, such as channeling Emiya's knowledge of the weaponry as well as stealing his/sword's skills. This should also be impossible given that Emiya is no longer a part of the current world (being a part of a different dimension so to speak). So while they are both one and the same, Emiya is no longer a part of the world so how can Shirou draw power/experience from a dude who is not supposed to exist in this world?

If Shirou and Gil had a sword rain battle, then don't you think Shirou would be skwered into swiss cheese in the route? The only real advantage Shirou had was plot hax (stealing experience, etc), so going blow for blow against Gil would lead him to a disadvantage. Unless the opposing weaponry manages to hit each other blow for blow, but then Gil's weapons should slice through Shirou's given their rank.

And what do you mean by your 2nd paragraph?

@willy
Let's not forget that the moment he was cornered/got his arm whacked off, he could have easily summoned his armor to protect him. Yet we see him remaining in his casual attire the rest of the route. The fact that he was overwhelmed can be explained by his arrogance, but the fact that he was unable to do anything about it when he realized that is plot hax.

[orangejuicetang]

Gilgamesh takes Saber much more seriously than Shirou. It was even stated explicitly during UBW when Saber showed up that Gilgamesh would have to take the battle more seriously than he had been, but then Shirou told Saber to leave, which caused Gilgamesh to go "lol wut". At what point, during the Shirou vs Gilgamesh fight scene, does Shirou channel Emiya's knowledge for weaponry? And why the hell would Gilgamesh's weapon's slice through Shirou's given a rank difference? If Noble Phantasms worked that way, Saber would have cut Lancer's lance and Assassin's blade in half the first time she crossed swords with them. Rank applies to how powerful the Noble Phantasm attack is, not how powerful/hard the weapon itself is. And during the swordrain, chances are that he's simply using the swords as a hail of, well, swords. Besides, don't the swords themselves have the memory of their original owner or something. Thus Shirou would be swinging his swords with the same strength as the original owner, who might be Gilgamesh himself. How do you block swordrain? The only problem he had with that was the he couldn't finish his projections in time. See the scene before he uses UBW where Gilgamesh is sending waves of swords at Shirou and seeing if Shirou can project them fast enough to counter them. In UBW, where his projections finish instantly, that restriction is lifted. And the Gilgamesh who fought at a somehow almost equal level to Saber in Fate? All he did was swordrain and then Ea. That's all. That's the only way he fought. With his swordrain canceled out, and him refusing to use Ea initially out of pride, the only thing he had to rely on was his own swordsmanship. Which was pointed out as vastly inferior to Saber's during Fate. And also, his armor. How long and how much concentration does it take to materialize his armor? Would he have been to put his armor on in the time between slashing and parrying? Every time someone materializes their armor, it is before the fight, not in the middle of the fight.

My second paragraph wasn't directed at you, it was directed at the question/discussion about Archer a few posts back.

[willyvereb]

Gilgamesh materialised his armor in a split second in Fate and also he didn't swordrain Saber in Fate until he's got a bit more serious at Ryudou Temple(and then Saber was seriously F@cked by it...no matter what she did a good job blocking/avoiding the first 6-8 but then Gil released the remaining ones from the 42...she was either skillfull or Gil intentionally missed her vital parts or both, but she somehow survived it).
But before that he fought against Saber and while saber did disarm him 3 times, but compared to Archer who was constantly disarmed in mere seconds by Lancer(he lost his weapons about 15 times or more in seconds) and Saber IS a much better fighter I have to say Gilgamesh is much muhc more skillful than Shirou or Archer ever would be.

And still, how I yet have to hear an answer how the hell can Shirou block Gil's swordrain with anything other than Rho Aias. He shouldn't be able to send NPs to intercept them because it needs almost godly preception to aim in a split second at sword flying with about of a speed of a bullet. And Shirou is still more or less a human. Gilgamesh simply defended himself out of unknown reason while he's saying he's being cornered. It was a full clownplay. Nasu nerfed and made stupider Gil just to make Shirou look awesome.
UBW Shirou= Ichigo Kurosaki(though at least there are certain grounds for those shits to happen in Bleach...while none in FSN)

[mAc Chaos]

Yeah, Gilgamesh should've won, but oh well. The hero had to win somehow.