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Equal playing field? I don't remember her ever being interested in that.
And in that ep, they were both vying for attention. What's equality got to do with it?
Well, if you just look @ how Sheryl and Ranka's actions in ep 15 respectively, its not too difficult to see what I am talking about. Sheryl puts on a facade even though she likes the guy, while Ranka just... jumps at him.
Sheryl wants attention, but she wants it while being respected at the same time.
- Tak
Anh_Minh
2008-07-19, 16:31
I still don't see what any of it has to do with an "equal playing field".
As for wanting respect... I don't think anyone wants to be despised. They just have different ideas of what leads to disrespect. Ranka doesn't mind telling people she thinks they're great. Sheryl doesn't mind being seen as a sex object.
I still don't see what any of it has to do with an "equal playing field".
As for wanting respect... I don't think anyone wants to be despised. They just have different ideas of what leads to disrespect. Ranka doesn't mind telling people she thinks they're great. Sheryl doesn't mind being seen as a sex object.
Actually, with the way Sheryl is dealing with Alto, she at least don't want Alto to see her merely as a sex object. Sheryl likes Alto, but she doesn't want to throw herself at her completely without Alto showing at least some form of dignity and appreciation for her. Bottom line is, Sheryl wants to love Alto on an equal playing field, with Alto showing just as much affection back.
Ranka? Well, her one-sided crush pretty much have her literally thrown herself at him
- Tak
Anh_Minh
2008-07-19, 16:59
Oh, you meant she wants to stand on an equal footing with Alto. You should have said. (Playing field means competition... and it's not with Alto she's competing at the moment.)
magnuskn
2008-07-19, 17:02
Oh, you meant she wants to stand on an equal footing with Alto. You should have said. (Playing field means competition... and it's not with Alto she's competing at the moment.)
An "equal playing field" is a term for being on equal terms.
justinstrife
2008-07-19, 17:11
If only the shippers could get along as well as Ranka and Sheryl during the duet. :heh:
This has been a fascinating read, just one question here:
What is the Sheryl blog that someone is referring to? Is it something posted on the japanese macross website or fan-made?
The Sheryl blog is an official Sheryl blog! :heh: Made by Macross staff.
http://ameblo.jp/sherylnome/
- Tak
Swampstorm
2008-07-19, 19:35
An "equal playing field" is a term for being on equal terms.That's true, but the phrase also implies a competition.
Love involves both coorperation and conflict. If one side is signficantly stronger than the other, they win out and dominate the relationship. But if you have two people who are willing to take each other to task, but also are also willing to set aside their differences and support each other, you have a strong relationship.
That's where the equal playing field part comes in. Sheryl is a threat, in the fact that she's a very strong person, but Alto happens to be strong enough to match her willpower; he's as much of a threat, himself. Out of that clash comes a relationship between two equals. Neither side owes the other anything, and neither side is willing to hold back any punches.
There's room for confusion here because both Sheryl and Ranka are both interested in Alto, so there's another competition here, too. What's more, the dialogue leading in to the sing off showed that neither girl was afraid to pull out any of the tricks at their disposal in order to gain the upper hand. So I wouldn't say that either is interested in a level playing field in that situation. :heh:
The set up of episodes 1-15 is actually this:
-Have Ranka climb stardom high enough to appear on the Galaxy villain's radar. That wouldn't happen completely if she didn't fall in love with Alto and follow him to Galia 4. Her connection to the Vajra was also revealed from there.
-Alto (this is what the writer's wishes) have him thrown into the mix in the middle of this conspiracy. This wouldn't happen if Sheryl didn't become interested in him enough to invite him to Galia 4 and most importantly, it wouldn't happen if he didn't rescue Ranka. Everything all happened from there up to the part where Bilra wanted to see him himself.
-Sheryl -survive Galia 4 by looking for Alto, then get discarded by Grace to find a new victim of their evil plans---Ranka. Up to this point, Sheryl is more like a plot device that had a hand in setting up Ranka and Alto to get to where they are in the plot. I know I'm going to get hated again for that sentence:heh:, but getting discarded by Grace opens up a lot of possibilities for her including the character growth that she really needs. =/
It's just a simple overview of how far the characters have moved from their original points, how the stage is assembled right now. It's amazing to see Ranka come such a long way from the insecure, timid self, she's grown into a confident, singing idol whose popularity promises to skyrocket even more. Sheryl was at the top of her throne in the beginning, she seems to have it all, but now, she's slowly becoming a fallen idol. Sheryl has grown close with Alto in the beginning, but finds that Alto and Ranka has grown closer.
So now that the set-up of the stage is done, now it's time for the show to start. *sits back and eats popcorn*
2008-07-20
Title: The day you first fell in love.
Do you remember the first time you fell in love?
I am not talking about who you fell in love with or the first place when you had a date.
Do you remember the emotions you felt?
I remember them even now.
It is as if a cold, pale cold radio tower were constructed around my heart in an instant.
That tower definitely caught the different emotions and words that I experienced at the time and those things play a huge role when I am writing a song, is what I think.
You have to fall in love.
Sheryl
January 11, 2059
Crosspost from MW blog thread...
As long as it doesn't somehow end up she fell for Brera at some point... that would be so random and out of left field I could almost see it happen... Brera swoops in and steals both of Alto's girls away...
ReddyRedWolf
2008-07-21, 02:38
Ouji-sama VS Hime :heh:
magnuskn
2008-07-21, 02:40
2008-07-20
Title: The day you first fell in love.
Do you remember the first time you fell in love?
I am not talking about who you fell in love with or the first place when you had a date.
Do you remember the emotions you felt?
I remember them even now.
It is as if a cold, pale cold radio tower were constructed around my heart in an instant.
That tower definitely caught the different emotions and words that I experienced at the time and those things play a huge role when I am writing a song, is what I think.
You have to fall in love.
Sheryl
January 11, 2059
Hmmm... so she already fell in love before? Or is she meaning that she just now noticed she fell in love? Itīs a bit hard to decipher.
Hmmm... so she already fell in love before? Or is she meaning that she just now noticed she fell in love? Itīs a bit hard to decipher.
Kind of misty there indeed. sounds like a half confession to me :P
Hmmm... so she already fell in love before? Or is she meaning that she just now noticed she fell in love? Itīs a bit hard to decipher.
Yeah, hard to tell without knowing exactly when the series started in 2059... Anyone got a Macross Frontier chronology handy? :)
I could read this for weeks and not finish. Let me be up front and say I am from the Ranka camp. Sheryl is completely unappealing to me personally because I didn't get to see her climb to fame. It makes it harder to connect with a character, for me anyway. Plus Ranka is super cute and wears her heart on her sleeve. I don't really have any speculation for how things will pair up but I would be much more interested in a story that built on rankas feelings and Altos unwillingness to accept or be ruled by his. Anything with sheryl just seems too "Idol's new boy-toy" to me.
Anh_Minh
2008-07-21, 04:10
Would January place that entry before her arrival on Frontier?
Sheryl is completely unappealing to me personally because I didn't get to see her climb to fame.
Have you watched the latest episode? It looks like we'll reach that part very very soon. ;)
magnuskn
2008-07-21, 04:17
Would January place that entry before her arrival on Frontier?
Hmm... first time I ever noticed that the blog entries are not in sequence, but rather in random order.
So, yeah, I guess that means she was in love before, and this ainīt referring to Alto.
JackRydden224
2008-07-21, 04:18
Have you watched the latest episode? It looks like we'll reach that part very very soon. ;)
Agreed. It looks like she'll have to work her way back up again.
I really enjoyed the small part when Sheryl wanted to look her best before meeting Alto only to see Ranka tagging along. If only the little queen wasn't there.......
justinstrife
2008-07-21, 10:32
I could read this for weeks and not finish. Let me be up front and say I am from the Ranka camp. Sheryl is completely unappealing to me personally because I didn't get to see her climb to fame. It makes it harder to connect with a character, for me anyway. Plus Ranka is super cute and wears her heart on her sleeve. I don't really have any speculation for how things will pair up but I would be much more interested in a story that built on rankas feelings and Altos unwillingness to accept or be ruled by his. Anything with sheryl just seems too "Idol's new boy-toy" to me.
Welcome to the minority in every way. Tell us how the club is. :heh:
I could read this for weeks and not finish. Let me be up front and say I am from the Ranka camp. Sheryl is completely unappealing to me personally because I didn't get to see her climb to fame. It makes it harder to connect with a character, for me anyway. Plus Ranka is super cute and wears her heart on her sleeve.
I also think Sheryl didn't do all those mambo jumbos the way Ranka did them.:rolleyes: What's sure is that, Grace & co made her the Galactic fairy so she'll appeal to Frontier. If Sheryl isn't a mechanically engineered humanoid and is really all natural, she may have just been picked up on the street by Grace and made her become the Galactic Fairy. I find this less likely since the Galaxy sounded like she's supposed to function like Ranka. She can't be a normal human if she were to be like that. The crazed look on Sheryl's face at the thought of Ranka stealing her stardom is disturbing. It's like, she'll fall apart if she can't be Sheryl Nome the idol. Looks like people are wrong when they think Sheryl will just gladly settle down with Alto and leave her stardom to Ranka lol
I don't really have any speculation for how things will pair up but I would be much more interested in a story that built on rankas feelings and Altos unwillingness to accept or be ruled by his. Anything with sheryl just seems too "Idol's new boy-toy" to me.
Seriously.
Ah, anything to feed ani_d's ammo-belt is always a plus, eh?
Plus Ranka is super cute and wears her heart on her sleeve.
Yeah, and she is also a loli-jail-bait with drooling moe fan-boys all over Japan drawing doujins of her in extremely compromising situations.
Thank goodness Alto have yet to ascend to the role of a serial lolicon.
but I would be much more interested in a story that built on rankas feelings and Altos unwillingness to accept or be ruled by his. Anything with sheryl just seems too "Idol's new boy-toy" to me.
It sure seemed like it during Star Date, but if you have not progressed further after that episode, then you are certainly missing a lot of Sheryl's own inner struggles and her developing a definite affection for Alto.
Yet, I can almost use the same argument against this statement. I can easily say that anything with Ranka just seems too "girl's (another) new crush" to me, which usually ends in separation assuming the forms of some laughable high-school type drama, with kiddies attempting the roles of mature adults only to fail miserably at the end. There is absolutely no thought in Ranka's love for Alto, no substance, only hallow well-wishes on a singular-track road to nowhere.
- Tak
Yeah, and she is also a loli-jail-bait with drooling moe fan-boys all over Japan drawing doujins of her in extremely compromising situations.
So true. And this is my response to the mere thought of Ranka dojinshi....
http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/305/facepalm1ve4.jpg
That's why no matter how impressed I am with Ranka's character growth over the last 15 episodes, I don't think she's suitable for a romantic relationship yet.
Now a Sheryl and Alto dojinshi.... hmmm... :heh::heh::heh:
That's why no matter how impressed I am with Ranka's character growth over the last 15 episodes, I don't think she's suitable for a romantic relationship yet.
As of yet, i don't see Alto thinking of Ranka in that way. Not to say that can't happen, and it probably will just to piss me off (yes i want Alto x Sheryl ending), but upto now he's mostly being caring for her as a close friend. Now if you wanna look really into that, then yes you could say Alto is doing it out of strong feelings for Ranka, though i don't believe that to be true at this point in the series.
He's shown some what of an interest in Sheryl. I just hope because that Sheryl started out in the lead at the start means she won't win. If it's going to end with Ranka x Alto, then i want it to be believable.
As of yet, i don't see Alto thinking of Ranka in that way. Not to say that can't happen, and it probably will just to piss me off (yes i want Alto x Sheryl ending), but upto now he's mostly being caring for her as a close friend. Now if you wanna look really into that, then yes you could say Alto is doing it out of strong feelings for Ranka, though i don't believe that to be true at this point in the series.
He's shown some what of an interest in Sheryl. I just hope because that Sheryl started out in the lead at the start means she won't win. If it's going to end with Ranka x Alto, then i want it to be believable.
alto is all over both of them. He's all over Sheryl and all over Ranka. SherylxAlto all the way
He is basically all over both of them, and I think kind of needs to grow too, to be with either one of them. Right now I can't see a real ending for either couple, though that could change quickly. But I don't think it all should be the girls doing all the work.
He's shown some what of an interest in Sheryl. I just hope because that Sheryl started out in the lead at the start means she won't win. If it's going to end with Ranka x Alto, then i want it to be believable.
I don't think Sheryl ever started with the lead. The first couple of episodes were basically all Ranka. If Ranka X Alto happens it happens, but it'll never be believable to me. :heh: They are welcome to try to change my mind though.
alto is all over both of them. He's all over Sheryl and all over Ranka. SherylxAlto all the way
Sorry, but i don't see how Alto is all over both of them, he's still in "ah don't touch me~" state.
I don't think Sheryl ever started with the lead. The first couple of episodes were basically all Ranka. If Ranka X Alto happens it happens, but it'll never be believable to me. :heh: They are welcome to try to change my mind though.
Just because Ranka met Alto first doesn't mean anything --- what i said was going by when feelings started to show, and Sheryl was first.
Just because Ranka met Alto first doesn't mean anything --- what i said was going by when feelings started to show, and Sheryl was first.
I don't see the substance of Alto and Ranka's feelings, I really don't. Somebody will have to convince me where the substance is, where is the interaction and the understanding? They all seem absent.
- Tak
justinstrife
2008-07-22, 10:33
I don't see the substance of Alto and Ranka's feelings, I really don't. Somebody will have to convince me where the substance is, where is the interaction and the understanding? They all seem absent.
- Tak
ani_d and BleachOD will be along shortly to show us the error in our ways of thinking. :p
But I agree. It doesn't work at this point. There would need to be some flash forward a few years like Ichigo 100% before I could believe it.
There would need to be some flash forward a few years like Ichigo 100% before I could believe it.
Yeah. If they go Ranka+Alto, they really need to flash forward a few years with a new non-loli/moe Ranka design before I could believe it. However, that's about as likely to happen as Hikaru & Misa showing up in MF :heh:, so I remain firmly committed to to Sherly+Alto. ;)
Anh_Minh
2008-07-22, 11:05
So the only thing you have against Ranka x Alto is her looks? Isn't that rather shallow?
So the only thing you have against Ranka x Alto is her looks? Isn't that rather shallow?
Err. It's the fact that she looks like a 12 year old. Most people would find a romantic relationship between a 17 year old and a 12 year old looking girl completely abhorrant, despite the fact that the age difference is only 5 years (and let's not even go into the legal/criminal implications of that). Now fast forward that ten years, and you get 27 and 22, which would be perfectly acceptable to all parties.
Anh_Minh
2008-07-22, 11:21
She's 16. She may very well be one of those "eternal lolis", who look 12 at age 12, 16, or 27. And then what?
Not this argument again. Let us all just agree to disagree on it. If people feel uncomfortable with the RankaxAlto relationship because of it looking like lolicon, nothing anyone says is going to change their mind. Besides, that might be one reason but not the sole reason for disliking the couple. I mean aging her up would take away the discomfort one gets looking at them, but I personally probably still wouldn't like the couple. They need more development.
So the only thing you have against Ranka x Alto is her looks? Isn't that rather shallow?
ranka looks like she's 8...
I wonder if you would go out with some1 that looks like their 8.
They need more development.
This is what i'm saying. I hope it's nothing really small though, something so cheap that makes Alto start to see Ranka that way. I'd feel so stolen.
ranka looks like she's 8...
I wonder if you would go out with some1 that looks like their 8.
I don't know what 8 year olds you know, though Ranka does not look 8.
This is what i'm saying. I hope it's nothing really small though, something so cheap that makes Alto start to see Ranka that way. I'd feel so stolen.
I don't know what 8 year olds you know, though Ranka does not look 8.
her flatness makes her look 8
Not 8, but 11 or 12 to me.
While her appearance has something to do the my AltoxRanka aversion, it is how she acts that really turns me off. She comes off as someone just hitting puberty no matter what her age is. Her interactions with Alto seem like those of a fangirl replete with the requisite fangirl squeals and screams. And, of course, we cannot forget her mannerisms, which make her seem even younger. I would have fewer problems with how she looks if she acted more mature.
Anh_Minh
2008-07-22, 12:53
Not this argument again. Let us all just agree to disagree on it. If people feel uncomfortable with the RankaxAlto relationship because of it looking like lolicon, nothing anyone says is going to change their mind. Besides, that might be one reason but not the sole reason for disliking the couple. I mean aging her up would take away the discomfort one gets looking at them, but I personally probably still wouldn't like the couple. They need more development.
And that's a fine argument for not liking the pairing. But her looks? Shallow. Not that there's necessarily anything wrong with being shallow, I suppose.
ranka looks like she's 8...
Why not push the absurdity all the way and say she looks like an embryo in her mother's womb?
I wonder if you would go out with some1 that looks like their 8.
I'm shallow. Looks do matter to me, and eight years old are hardly my ideal of beauty. Besides, like Michel, I wouldn't like the negative attention it'd bring. But if someone doesn't care about those, more power to him.
her flatness makes her look 8
Ah, yes. How nice for all the little-endowed women out there.
She's 16. She may very well be one of those "eternal lolis", who look 12 at age 12, 16, or 27. And then what?
LOL somehow I don't think an "eternal loli" exists anywhere outside anime, Not even in Japan. When I was living in Japan, I once dated this petite girl who was 5' 2" and very energetic. At 29, she could easily pass for someone in her early 20s (in fact, I thought she was in her early/mid 20s until she showed me her driver's license one day). However, she never looked like someone under 20.
I have also known girls in their early 20s that could pass for late teens with the right hairstyle and make-up, but that is very temporary. Trust me, as women age, it shows. :heh:
The bottom line is Ranka's current character design looks like 12 (at least to me), and that's a total turn-off as far as her being a plausable romantic interest IMHO. We can just agree to disagree on this. :)
I'm not gonna carry on the discussion or anything, though i'd just like to point out that Ranka does look her age. Flat chest has nothing to do with it, and that's the only think you people seem to be mentioning. She's small in height --- that's not a 'loli design', not at all. I've seen some character designs for 16 year olds that are a lot worse.
See now i wonder if you people are saying all this because she's up against Sheryl. I mean just compare the two in terms of looks, and there you have it.
And that's a fine argument for not liking the pairing. But her looks? Shallow. Not that there's necessarily anything wrong with being shallow, I suppose.
I suppose, but as I said before the reaction to the perceived lolicon is rather automatic. More of a gut reaction than rational one. It can be overridden probably, but only if there is something there to make one actually like the pairing. But you are right if it's the sole reason for not liking a pairing perhaps that is a bit unfair.
Looks aside, both pairings need work and development. Alto is still such a dunce in the romance department. There is virtually no real romance between Alto and Sheryl at the moment and only just recently has there been some development of romance between Ranka and Alto. There is a lot of work to be done. But I do prefer the overall interaction between Sheryl and Alto to the interaction between Ranka and Alto. That's part of the reason I am more partial to Sheryl and Alto. Even if Alto is not good enough for Sheryl. Hehehe...
See now i wonder if you people are saying all this because she's up against Sheryl. I mean just compare the two in terms of looks, and there you have it.
It's not just comparing Ranka with Sheryl do you see an age/maturity difference, it is literally the entire cast compared against Ranka that keeps emphasizing the point. Even Luca, who we acknowledge as the show's only shouta, makes Ranka appear as a kid several years younger than him. Against the backdrop of young adults and working professionals, Ranka's character design and her mannerisms make her the loli of the show.
Look at her clothing, accessories, hair styles, how she displays her excitement, her character movements, facial expressions, the fangs...all of that screams loli. The only time Ranka didn't appear loli was when she was doing the photoshoot and when she was in the flight suit.
I think both Ranka and Luca look like they are 12. Hey, they should hook up! Just kidding...I actually wouldn't wish Luca on poor Ranka.
But yeah, to me she just seems really young. Her body, her face, her voice, the way she dresses, the way she acts sometimes, etc.
Why are you guys so critical of Ranka?:heh: This is just wrong.
It's not Ranka's fault she's underdeveloped. I repeat. It is not her fault. She also wasn't designed for lolicons. Sure, that would make a great joke, but do you absolutely think that's Kawamori's big reason as to why he wanted Ranka's design to look like that? A moe-loli jailbait for lolicons and pedobears? As far as professionalism is concerned, that is not his main goal. It can't be.
If you check his latest Beat Magazine interview, it's very apparent Kawamori wanted to make Ranka a down to Earth character. One that's not drop dead gorgeous--like those generic Macross heroines fanboys kept drooling on--but at the same time, pretty in her own way. One that can relate to other teenage girls who has the same insecurities. Isn't this so common for any average 15 years old out there? I don't know about other girls but not everyone is born as sexy as Sheryl. This is also not true for just asian girls, there are other female girls in different races that are just underdeveloped contrary to their wishes. I mean, even Ranka's best friend Nanase is more voluptuous than her. Check out Ranka in Miss Macross dressing room and the insecurity she felt later on when she hid beside the stairs. If it wasn't for Alto, she would back down. Ranka's character is one of the epitome of normalcy Kawamori wanted Macross Frontier's character to have.
Even her personality is very relatable to teenagers her age out there. Allow me to rant since we're on topic.
1. Ranka's no good. (Typical)
2. Useless when put in a battlefield--an absolute screamer. (Feel free to criticize her once you've proven you can take on a Vajra by your own hand. ^_^)
3. Fangirls over her idol. (Typical)
4. Immature. (Who isn't/wasn't?)
5. Gets completely motivated by her crush. (Typical)
6. Lacks self-esteem. (Typical)
7. Rebels (Ty.pi.cal)
What else? Can't live without her cellphone? lol Ranka's character is your average high schooler thrown into a Vajra battlefield unaware of her own potential. (I can say the same for Alto but that's not the point here.) I believe this is also why Ranka is so prominent in the storyline.
If there's a message to the teens that Kawamori wanted to express through Ranka's character, it's having a good heart. She may be completely full of flaws next to Sheryl, but Alto put it very clearly in episode 13. It's her spirit that's admirable. You don't need to be someone like Sheryl to be able to grab your dreams and the man you love. You just have to have the right attitude and courage to pursue what you want to pursue. Watching episodes 1-15, look at how far Ranka's character has matured. If you ask me, anyone who's willing to risk her life recklessly for the man she loves deserves that person. People who hate Ranka for her weak self are more or less hating a part of themselves Ranka portrays oh so clearly.
Should RankaxAlto happen, it's not because it was forced, it's because Ranka earned him and you got half of the series backing that up. Alto on the other hand deserves Ranka's affection as well. All those support and life-risking he did for her sake did not go to waste.
As for any commonplace vibe I got from Sheryl, she just started on the wrong side of the hood for me. She was shown human after 5 episodes which is a little too late for me to favor her.:)
Anh_Minh
2008-07-22, 15:27
Well, I wouldn't say she looks 12, but she does look a bit younger than 16. But hey, it's not like it's all that rare to look younger than you are.
The problem is that not just Sheryl, but Alto, Michel, Nanase - they all look older than their supposed 17 years of age. And Klan - I don't know how old she is, but in giant form, she looks like she's in her early-to-mid twenties.
It's not Ranka's fault she's underdeveloped. I repeat. It is not her fault. She also wasn't designed for lolicons.
...
If you check his latest Beat Magazine interview, it's very apparent Kawamori wanted to make Ranka a down to Earth character. One that's not drop dead gorgeous--like those generic Macross heroines fanboys kept drooling on--but at the same time, pretty in her own way. One that can relate to other teenage girls who has the same insecurities.
Despite his intentions, Kawamori and team screwed up here because Ranka is neither normal nor down to Earth. The most normal characters are Nanase (sans boobs) and the bridge bunnies. Even then they make Ranka look like a little girl. We have very little insight on how normal 16 year old girls typically behave on Macross Frontier. Aside from Ranka, Nanase, and a brief scene with the 2 girls in the locker room (ep 5) we have very little to establish a bar with. That said, I'm extremely hesitant to pull from real life to fill in those blanks and so I have to work with what we got. And what we have is a 16 year old girl who is framed against a cast and setting that's on a whole other maturity level.
squaresphere
2008-07-22, 15:50
Really I'm ok with Ranka's character as long as she keeps showing growth. The concert on Gallia 4 and the duet were both great signs of her starting to come out of her shell on her own.
Why are you guys so critical of Ranka?:heh: This is just wrong.
We aren't talking about whether she is weak or strong at the moment so I'm not sure why you are bringing that up in your post. We're just talking about how she looks compared to everyone else. Unless you are just bringing that up because of posts people made in the past? I don't think anyone is denying that Ranka has experienced some growth as a character and will probably continue to do so.
I also don't think of who "deserves" Alto more. Both Sheryl and Ranka are good people. Both deserve love. I look at who I think has the best chemistry with him. For me it is Sheryl and Alto.
Despite his intentions, Kawamori and team screwed up here because Ranka is neither normal nor down to Earth.
Mind listing them all down the way I did?:) All the things about her that you see as neither normal nor down to earth. From how I can see it, she's just as normal as any real life teenagers out there.:rolleyes:
You are trying to compare Ranka with the Bridge bunnies who have very little focus in the show. I'm not sure about your ideal normal standard, but Ranka, Nanase, Alto, Michael, Luca are portrayed as typical teenagers. They are maturing--especially Ranka and Alto. This war is taking a toll on them and it's making them or breaking them. Besides, I don't even think teenagers have uniform attitudes and uniform aging clocks.
*EDITs
We're just talking about how she looks compared to everyone else.
Which is why I said it is not her fault she looks younger than her age. Kawamori made her underdeveloped compared to the rest of the cast because girls like her are typical. He made it so that teenage girls who share the same insecurity/issues can relate to her. Besides, Luca has the same problem. It's just how teenagers are.
Why are you guys so critical of Ranka?:heh: This is just wrong.
Beep.
While some of us are talking about how she looks 'physically', we were really critiquing how her relationship with Alto is not a very appealing one. It has little to do with her character development.
- Tak
magnuskn
2008-07-22, 16:05
She's 16. She may very well be one of those "eternal lolis", who look 12 at age 12, 16, or 27. And then what?
Nobody, except people with a genetic disorder ( which does exist, btw ) eternally look 12 years old. People may remain small all their life, but their appearance still ages.
Ranka as a 16 year old girl is completely unbelievable. I donīt really want to post all the screens again where she looks between 10 to 12 years old, but in almost all shots she does. Only exceptions were a short scene in the plane at the end of episode 12 and a bit the song-battle in 15. Ah, and the kiss in episode 10, of course, but there they only showed the faces of Alto and Ranka.
And, yes, before you begin again ( we already had this discussion ), I also think she is not the right person for Alto for a mature relationship, because of her emotional depency issues.
A main theme of the show is that people should not depend on the preconceptions of others to be who they want to be, that people should express their individuality and uniqueness.
Ranka, OTOH, is making herself very much dependent on Altos aproval..
I think ( and hope ) that I am reading Kawamoris storyline correctly, because that is what makes me believe that in the end Sheryl and Alto will be together, because they leave the other the liberty of being themselves.
Well, and that they complement each other in lots of other ways, but I am getting away from my main point. Anyway, sleepytime. :)
Which is why I said it is not her fault she looks younger than her age. Kawamori made her underdeveloped compared to the rest of the cast because girls like her are typical. He made it so that teenage girls who share the same insecurity/issues can relate to her. Besides, Luca has the same problem. It's just how teenagers are.
I'm skeptical and still think it was at least partially done because of the current moe-loli fad rampant in the anime scene. That's very pessimistic of me, I know, but ultimately it's about making money and following "hot" trends and it wouldn't surprise me one bit if that was part of the reason for the design. Perhaps I should have more faith in Kawamori though.
He did want her to be "normal" but I don't see why normal must equal loli-moe.
Anyway, most of your post didn't address this point though. It seemed to address her character's supposed weakness/insecurities, which we weren't really talking about. Not that you aren't free to rant about it anyway....
It's not just comparing Ranka with Sheryl do you see an age/maturity difference, it is literally the entire cast compared against Ranka that keeps emphasizing the point. Even Luca, who we acknowledge as the show's only shouta, makes Ranka appear as a kid several years younger than him. Against the backdrop of young adults and working professionals, Ranka's character design and her mannerisms make her the loli of the show.
Alright i'll give you that one. It's just in some scenes, she looks her age (not on stage though, hell no). & i'd have to disagree with Luca --- he dresses and looks like a 12 year old. :p
I guess it's just when i see her by herself she looks her age, and sometimes (depending) around other people. I still don't agree with the fact that she looks 12. Maybe 14 pushing 15.
justinstrife
2008-07-22, 18:24
So the only thing you have against Ranka x Alto is her looks? Isn't that rather shallow?
She looks 12, she acts 12, she dresses 12, her thought processes are that of a 12 year old. She's 16 in age only. My co-worker's 12 year old who comes into work all the time during break, acts and looks the same age wise as Ranka does. Throw a green haired wig on her, and have her do the dance routine of Ranka, and I'd swear they were the same person. It's not just looks, it's the whole package. I've already argued this before and shouldn't have to repeat myself.
She looks 12, she acts 12, she dresses 12, her thought processes are that of a 12 year old. She's 16 in age only. My co-worker's 12 year old who comes into work all the time during break, acts and looks the same age wise as Ranka does. Throw a green haired wig on her, and have her do the dance routine of Ranka, and I'd swear they were the same person. It's not just looks, it's the whole package. I've already argued this before and shouldn't have to repeat myself.
does he also like guys that look like girls?
justinstrife
2008-07-22, 21:21
does he also like guys that look like girls?
I think Alto secretly has a thing for Michael. Hence why he's always competitive against him.
I think Alto secretly has a thing for Michael. Hence why he's always competitive against him.
That's you going into yaoi doujin territory.
SuperKnuckles
2008-07-23, 06:06
Maybe it's about high time Macross starts having true female heroine pilots who chooses men instead. Sorta like Final Fantasy finally having that female heroine in 13. :heh:
Maybe it's about high time Macross starts having true female heroine pilots who chooses men instead. Sorta like Final Fantasy finally having that female heroine in 13. :heh:
*Cough* Final Fantasy 10 *Cough* :p
Besides, women did choose, as in Macross PLUS, even if that triangle left a bad after-taste for Kawamori and co.
- Tak
magnuskn
2008-07-23, 07:59
Besides, women did choose, as in Macross PLUS, even if that triangle left a bad after-taste for Kawamori and co.
- Tak
Aha? Could you go a bit into detail as to why? :)
Aha? Could you go a bit into detail as to why? :)
For starters, she did both of them, yes? :p
And Sharon was like "you love Guld, but you love Isamu more!"
- Tak (I think Guld was compensating for something throughout the show... but, I will leave that detail for another discussion at another day)
I Don't think she did both of em (at least not by choice)
I don't think Guld raped her in that flashback, seemed like he stopped after he realized wtf he was doing. She did sleep with Guld in episode... 2.. she might of slept with Isamu from their school days.. if she didn't she would've after the series finished anyway. Also the Plus triangle rocked, quit hating!
BleachOD got banned, anyone know if it's permanent or temporary? I was ready to bow down to the shipping machine after her glorious uppercut that she would've given the "nomers" in this thread.
Also Tak.. lol @ Yuna.
Which is why I said it is not her fault she looks younger than her age. Kawamori made her underdeveloped compared to the rest of the cast because girls like her are typical. He made it so that teenage girls who share the same insecurity/issues can relate to her. Besides, Luca has the same problem. It's just how teenagers are.
Ranka and Luca are horrible representations of typical teenages, Ranka is clearly designed to appeal to that crowd and this has nothing to do with her actual character. Please don't even try to defend this, you won't see me saying that Sheryl's look is based upon sex appeal, she's an idol, of course she's suppose to be sexy. You can find much better examples of typical looking girls in anime than Ranka.
magnuskn
2008-07-23, 08:19
For starters, she did both of them, yes? :p
And Sharon was like "you love Guld, but you love Isamu more!"
- Tak (I think Guld was compensating for something throughout the show... but, I will leave that detail for another discussion at another day)
Yeah, but what was Kawamories problem with the OVA? Or did you mean that people didnīt like what Kawamori portrayed in it?
I guess that was a problem for a lot of fans though personaly it didn't bother me. Look how many people coughrankafanscough whine about Sheryl being a slut just from her interactions with Alto in this series, now you go back 14 years and look at what Myung did.
... I'm not getting any of this. What do I have to watch to get this
justinstrife
2008-07-23, 10:30
I guess that was a problem for a lot of fans though personaly it didn't bother me. Look how many people coughrankafanscough whine about Sheryl being a slut just from her interactions with Alto in this series, now you go back 14 years and look at what Myung did.
Myung was a slut. Only because of the fact that she slept with the guy who was the core reason for all the crap that went on between the 3 childhood friends. She and Isamu knew the truth, and she saw the crap Guld put Isamu through even the 7 years later.
Lucy x Isamu FTMFW. :frustrated:
macross plus is an oav right?
squaresphere
2008-07-23, 11:14
M+ is both an OVA and a Movie. If you do watch it check out the movie version as it's the more updated of the two.
But yes high time we get an ace pilot girl as the center of a triangle. I nominate any one of Max and Miria's kids :D *cough beside Mylene*
Look how many people coughrankafanscough whine about Sheryl being a slut just from her interactions with Alto in this series, now you go back 14 years and look at what Myung did.
While I thought Sheryl was just being playful. Which is kind of cute, in a way, really.
M+ is both an OVA and a Movie. If you do watch it check out the movie version as it's the more updated of the two.
But yes high time we get an ace pilot girl as the center of a triangle. I nominate any one of Max and Miria's kids :D *cough beside Mylene*
I really really want to watch something about Komilia.
- Tak
lone_wolf
2008-07-23, 13:23
M+ is both an OVA and a Movie. If you do watch it check out the movie version as it's the more updated of the two.
But yes high time we get an ace pilot girl as the center of a triangle. I nominate any one of Max and Miria's kids :D *cough beside Mylene*
Ah, that would be divine! :) I'd go with Tak's choice but seriously....Emilia needs some love as well. :heh:
--Lone Wolf
一匹狼
Mind listing them all down the way I did?:) All the things about her that you see as neither normal nor down to earth. From how I can see it, she's just as normal as any real life teenagers out there.:rolleyes:
I consider any comparisons with real life to be a very slippery slope when discussing an anime, especially an anime that has mecha, giants, aliens, and uses music as a weapon of war.
Down-to-Earth
For Ranka to be down-to-earth her actions, decisions, and expectations need to be practical and sensible. Our first big problem when analyzing this is that our source of data is very limited because Ranka's character makes very few decisions or actions during the last 15 episodes and what is left is heavily biased towards singing/idol issues. Therefore we have a very small pool of data whose spectrum of issues is fairly narrow which we must judge if they were practical and sensible.
In an attempt to not make my posts look like an OD piece of work, I'm going to keep my justifications brief.
1. Participating in Miss Macross pageant.
2. How Ranka handled her fight with Ozma.
3. Responds to Michael's challenge and sings at Folmo's Mall
4. Ranka sets up Alto to lie about being alone at the mall.
5. Signing up with Vector Promotions.
5b. Transferring schools.
6. Rejecting Sheryl's offer of work
7. How she handled Sheryl's and Luca's knowledge of Alto's past.
8. Accepting the role of Mao
9. Birthday present - cookies
10. Defusing the Galia IV hostage crisis; ignoring Ozma's pleas.
11. Fights Sheryl for Alto in the sing off.
In my opinion, only actions 3, 5, 5b, 6, and 11 were practical and sensible for the given situations. That leaves 7 other actions that were irrational, unpractical, and unrealistic for any "normal" teenager. If you threw out any actions/decisions that are singing and idol related you'll see that there is very little left to work with.
Kawamori and team may have intended for Ranka to be a down-to-earth character, but they failed to provide her the opportunities to demonstrate those traits and what remained were mostly impractical and unrealistic responses. Hence the reason I argue that Ranka is far from being a down-to-earth character.
Normal
Even her personality is very relatable to teenagers her age out there. Allow me to rant since we're on topic.
1. Ranka's no good. (Typical)
2. Useless when put in a battlefield--an absolute screamer. (Feel free to criticize her once you've proven you can take on a Vajra by your own hand. ^_^)
3. Fangirls over her idol. (Typical)
4. Immature. (Who isn't/wasn't?)
5. Gets completely motivated by her crush. (Typical)
6. Lacks self-esteem. (Typical)
7. Rebels (Ty.pi.cal)
What else? Can't live without her cellphone? lol Ranka's character is your average high schooler thrown into a Vajra battlefield unaware of her own potential. (I can say the same for Alto but that's not the point here.) I believe this is also why Ranka is so prominent in the storyline.
1. Disagree. She's bad at what? Baking? Unfounded assertion since the series has yet to show us what Ranka is bad at.
2. Disagree, not a female teenager specific trait. This one applies to all age groups and genders.
3. Agree
4. Agree
5. Disagree, this applies to all age groups and genders, but I'll give you this one.
6. Disagree, this applies to all age groups and genders. A more appropriate trait would be the lack of direction.
7. Disagree. Unfounded assertion since Ranka has not demonstrated any rebellious actions. The closest we have is when she takes on Michael's challenge at Folmo mall.
For Ranka to be a "normal" teenager, the series needed to show us what life is like for the typical high school student. Unfortunately it failed to do so and now we need to pull from other animes and real life experiences to set the standard of what is a normal teenager on Frontier.
I would expect a normal teenage girl to:
1. Be a high school student.
2. Have some normal friends and classmates.
3. Have an after school activity (hobby, club, part-time job)
4. Experience love, probably for the first time.
5. Find direction in their life, be it university or career or something after high school.
6. Behave like a teenager.
7. Dress similar to other students around her.
Kawamori and team totally failed at depicting Ranka as a high school student. You wouldn't know she was a high school student if she wasn't wearing a school uniform. How many scenes do we have of Ranka at school participating in a school activity? Practically 0. It would be a stretch but we could include her introduction to the class and Sheryl's introduction to the class and we would have 2 scenes. Ranka as a high school student is completely undeveloped.
To further the point, Ranka does not have any school friends from St. Maria (??) and Mihoshi aside from Nanase, Alto, Michael, and Luca. Of those 4, only Nanase can be classified as "normal" because 1 guy is famous for dressing up as a girl, another guy is the heir to an manufacturing empire, and the other guy is the hottest piece of meat on campus. In addition, all 3 guys are pilots of an experimental fighter and members of a private army all at the tender age of 17. Either Ranka does not have any friends from school or she mostly socializes with people that are the furthest away from normal as possibly can be.
Now having an after school part-time job might be the most normal thing about Ranka. But when she ditches the job for a career in singing and idol entertainment everything about her ceases to be normal. Ranka's first experience with love might also be another normal thing.
As to whether Ranka appears and behaves as a normal teenager, that's pretty much a resounding no. If you compare Ranka's appearance with those of other high school students in Frontier then it's clear that Ranka does not look like a normal teenager. Her choice for book bag (the VF backpack), sleeping attire (hippo-cow suit), and scarf & dress weekend attire all suggests that she's a middle school student at most. If it wasn't for the fact that Ranka wears a high school uniform and that we're told her 16th birthday is soon, we'd never know that she was approaching adulthood.
The Ranka shown to us in the last 15 episodes is a far cry of what a normal teenager in Frontier should probably be. If Kawamori and staff intended to show us that Ranka was representative of a "normal" teenager on Frontier, then I'd have to argue that they screwed up by first failing to establish what a typical teenage girl is like and then failing to show that Ranka has similar traits.
At first glance, I honestly thought OD had turned to channeling since she got banned.
1. Participating in Miss Macross pageant.
2. How Ranka handled her fight with Ozma.
3. Responds to Michael's challenge and sings at Folmo's Mall
4. Ranka sets up Alto to lie about being alone at the mall.
5. Signing up with Vector Promotions.
5b. Transferring schools.
6. Rejecting Sheryl's offer of work
7. How she handled Sheryl's and Luca's knowledge of Alto's past.
8. Accepting the role of Mao
9. Birthday present - cookies
10. Defusing the Galia IV hostage crisis; ignoring Ozma's pleas.
11. Fights Sheryl for Alto in the sing off.
In my opinion, only actions 3, 5, 5b, 6, and 11 were practical and sensible for the given situations. That leaves 7 other actions that were irrational, unpractical, and unrealistic for any "normal" teenager. If you threw out any actions/decisions that are singing and idol related you'll see that there is very little left to work with.
Kawamori and team may have intended for Ranka to be a down-to-earth character, but they failed to provide her the opportunities to demonstrate those traits and what remained were mostly impractical and unrealistic responses. Hence the reason I argue that Ranka is far from being a down-to-earth character.
She lives in a floating colony in space, you know... hard to be 'down to earth' there. :eyespin:
Also, what's wrong with cookies?
I'll leave this one to you and ani, but I would like to interject one thing...
IMO:
genuine >>>>> realistic
relatable >>>>> down to earth
At first glance, I honestly thought OD had turned to channeling since she got banned.
Yeah, that was my long ass post of the month. Don't expect to see the next one anytime soon.
Anyone ever figure out what OD got banned over?
Swampstorm
2008-07-23, 16:40
Well, what ani_d is hinting at is some sort of an everyman (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheEveryman) hero. The difference is that she's an everyman hero born with latent superpowers, so she goes from being "average" to "exceptional" in a remarkably short period of time.
It's the same idea as an "instant mecha pilot". He's enough of a blank slate that you can project yourself into him, he starts out ordinary enough that everyone can identify with him, but then his latent powers suddenly kick in and he's the greatest guy in the universe. It's the ultimate in wish fulfillment.
The problem is that powers like these tend to overshadow the character themselves, and it becomes difficult to get a sense of who the character really is.
What's more, when you have two such blank slates in the same series trying to hold a conversation with each other, well... it doesn't make for very good dialogue. :heh:
As to whether Ranka appears and behaves as a normal teenager, that's pretty much a resounding no. If you compare Ranka's appearance with those of other high school students in Frontier then it's clear that Ranka does not look like a normal teenager. Her choice for book bag (the VF backpack), sleeping attire (hippo-cow suit), and scarf & dress weekend attire all suggests that she's a middle school student at most. If it wasn't for the fact that Ranka wears a high school uniform and that we're told her 16th birthday is soon, we'd never know that she was approaching adulthood.
Cerrian, congrats on a very detailed and analytical post that addresses some of the key problems with Ranka's character design and development. She really should be tagged as a 12-14 years old instead of 16. :heh:
What's more, when you have two such blank slates in the same series trying to hold a conversation with each other, well... it doesn't make for very good dialogue. :heh:
ROFTL. Touche. :heh:
magnuskn
2008-07-23, 16:47
Yeah, that was my long ass post of the month. Don't expect to see the next one anytime soon.
Anyone ever figure out what OD got banned over?
Wait, OD got banned? Must have been in the last two days. Figure me also interested why exactly she had to go, although I kinda think that it may have been for excessive smiley use. :D
Well, I guess she wonīt go into "genocide mode" against us Sheryl fans anymore in the romance thread, then, eh? :p
Wait, OD got banned? Must have been in the last two days. Figure me also interested why exactly she had to go, although I kinda think that it may have been for excessive smiley use. :D
Well, I guess she wonīt go into "genocide mode" against us Sheryl fans anymore in the romance thread, then, eh? :p
It's probably just a temporary one. I can't imagine she'd do something bad enough to get permanently banned. She'll be back eventually I suppose.
Not that it matters to me, her next move was to prove it will be a RankaXAlto ending and I already believed that long before she came around this forum. Nothing she can say will get me to like the pairing either. Only the show itself can do that.
Though I'm starting to wonder if we won't get a Zero like ending instead...
magnuskn
2008-07-23, 17:07
It's probably just a temporary one. I can't imagine she'd do something bad enough to get permanently banned. She'll be back eventually I suppose.
Not that it matters to me, her next move was to prove it will be a RankaXAlto ending and I already believed that long before she came around this forum. Nothing she can say will get me to like the pairing either. Only the show itself can do that.
Though I'm starting to wonder if we won't get a Zero like ending instead...
Geeze, man, you really are a "glass half empty" type of person. ;)
I am an optimist, so I refuse to accept any other result than the right one, until those "not right" ones happen. IMO, it is far better to deal with problems and disappointments when they crop up, rather than to constantly feel bad about the possibility that they might happen.
That doesnīt stop me from discussing the not ideal endings, but I firmly believe that Sheryl X Alto is what will be the final pairing.
Of course some of those "not ideal" endings really suck, like Megumi in Rahxephon not getting Ayato. <sigh> But, eh, shit happens when it happens.
Of course some of those "not ideal" endings really suck, like Megumi in Rahxephon not getting Ayato. <sigh> But, eh, shit happens when it happens.
Well, I never expected anything Megumi x Ayato to be fruitful. It was clear to me in the beginning that Haruka was the destined one.
And I like Haruka more, so nyah.
Oh wait, this is a Mac thread... ahem, err... brainstorm...
GO SHERYL!!!
Yeah...
- Tak
That doesnīt stop me from discussing the not ideal endings, but I firmly believe that Sheryl X Alto is what will be the final pairing.
Of course some of those "not ideal" endings really suck, like Megumi in Rahxephon not getting Ayato. <sigh> But, eh, shit happens when it happens.
I still think Sheryl X Alto has a good shot since Ranka's bug queen meter is going off the chart now. :heh: As for Megumi X Ayato in Rahxephon... we all knew that was never going to happen anyway. ;) Ahh... memories of shipper wars long ago. :heh:
Until I see evidence proving otherwise, I will continue to think it's RankaxAlto. I might be a Sheryl fan but I'm not going to believe in a SherylxAlto ending because of that. I need facts. Hopefully Kawamori will give me something soon to lead me to believe in a SherylxAlto ending. I'm not dismissing it and saying there is no chance in hell of it happening. I'm just saying at this point in time, it doesn't look like it's happening. Kawamori can easily change that in a couple episodes though. An example in another anime where I initially thought the couple didn't have a shot, but recently changed my mind would be...
It's kind of like in CG with the LuluxC.C. thing. They got zero development this season and I was almost ready to completely write them off. I knew episode 15 would be the last chance to salvage it and after that it would be toast if nothing happened. They did the super move and now I do believe LuluxC.C. have an excellent chance.
So similarly, if Kawamori does a major move to develop Alto and Sheryl then I'll be more likely to believe they have a shot. But right now I'm just not seeing any major romantic vibes between the two....it's mostly the dunce Alto's fault.
Though yeah, I agree Ranka's Little Queen meter is going off. That's why I think there might be a Zero like ending instead.
Until I see evidence proving otherwise, I will continue to think it's RankaxAlto. I might be a Sheryl fan but I'm not going to believe in a SherylxAlto ending because of that. I need facts. Hopefully Kawamori will give me something soon to lead me to believe in a SherylxAlto ending. I'm not dismissing it and saying there is no chance in hell of it happening. I'm just saying at this point in time, it doesn't look like it's happening. Kawamori can easily change that in a couple episodes though. An example in another anime where I initially thought the couple didn't have a shot, but recently changed my mind would be...
Given Kawamori's track history with Macross TV shows, he'd juggle our feelings as he see fit, giving us a little bit of a bait here and there, leading us to falsely believe in something then suddenly pull a reversal. Yeah, he will give us facts alright, then slam us with another set of equally important facts, and have our opinions switch 180 degrees only to reverse it back at the end. Keep our fingers crossed.
As for CC and Lulu, I think its obvious they are the logical pair. Nevermind that one potential competitor already died, while another had never overtly expressed her feelings. Then again, CG's pair works quite differently, so I can't exactly tell whats going to happen either.
- Tak
Until I see evidence proving otherwise, I will continue to think it's RankaxAlto. I might be a Sheryl fan but I'm not going to believe in a SherylxAlto ending because of that. I need facts. Hopefully Kawamori will give me something soon to lead me to believe in a SherylxAlto ending. I'm not dismissing it and saying there is no chance in hell of it happening. I'm just saying at this point in time, it doesn't look like it's happening. Kawamori can easily change that in a couple episodes though.
Episode 10 - 13 has basically been one big Ranka development arc, with her pulling off her Moe deathstar supermove in episode 12. I would anticipate something similiar for Sheryl between episode 18 - 23. If there is no supermove from Sheryl by episode 23, then yeah, probably Ranka X Alto is it. However, I'm keeping my fingers crossed until then (SHERYL がんばっていきまっしょい!). :D
(SHERYL がんばっていきまっしょい!). :D
You guys are so unenthusiastic when cheering for the queen, let the Master show you how it is done (properly):
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/9700/image1og4.jpg
- Tak (Although I have to admit, I am loving CC just as much right now)
lone_wolf
2008-07-23, 17:41
You guys are so unenthusiastic when cheering for the queen, let the Master show you how it is done (properly):
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/9700/image1og4.jpg
- Tak
We have a winner.
--Lone Wolf
一匹狼
You guys are so unenthusiastic when cheering for the queen, let the Master show you how it is done (properly):
I stand corrected. :heh: :bow: :bow:
it's mostly the dunce Alto's fault.
Meaning give him until the second to last episode until he finally click's onto who he's loved all along?
I hope it's not something like that. It's always done in a way you'll always remember in Macross, so i have my hopes up.
I still think it's gonna be RankaxAlto. However, I've been thinking about it and Ranka's childishness might prevent that. Also However, Ranka is queen of galaxy singer or something like that. Which directs my arrow towards rankaxalto. I still love sheryl
justinstrife
2008-07-23, 22:11
Of course some of those "not ideal" endings really suck, like Megumi in Rahxephon not getting Ayato. <sigh> But, eh, shit happens when it happens.
It was kind of obvious from the first episodes, that Megumi wasn't the chosen one. :heh:
She wasn't a bad choice if Ayato had a twin brother his age.... But for the real Ayato, there was only one love. That feeling was returned emphatically(I'm not looking this word up, but I hope I used it correctly and in the right context) by the one he loved.
You guys are so unenthusiastic when cheering for the queen, let the Master show you how it is done (properly):
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/9700/image1og4.jpg
We have a winner.
Rematch time!!! :D
http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/8373/sovietsherylparadeeh4.jpg
Rematch time!!! :D
http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/1895/sovietsherylparadeqa0.jpg
I see you have reserved your spirits to bring me a challenge, unfortunately, your attempt was futile.
Why? You might ask. I will tell you:
I... hate to point out to you, but you spelled Sheryl's Katakana wrong :p Its シェリル
- Tak
I see you have reserved your spirits to bring me a challenge, unfortunately, your attempt was futile.
Why? You might ask. I will tell you:
I... hate to point out to you, but you spelled Sheryl's Katakana wrong :p
- Tak
O.o he looses for a mispelling? lol
O.o he looses for a mispelling? lol
In war, every dirty little trick counts, ok? :D
- Tak
In war, every dirty little trick counts, ok? :D
- Tak
Ah ok then, why did you use two commas in your sentance? ^.^ every trick counts hehe xD
Kudos for taking the time listing down your gist towards Ranka.:) Here's the list of Ranka's actions that you think unrealistic/irrational. I bolded my reply.
1. Participating in Miss Macross pageant.
2. How Ranka handled her fight with Ozma.
[The only unrealistic part here are the flying knife and pots etc. If Ozma got hit by a casserole square in the face in real life, the first thing Cathy will do once she finds him would be to send him to the hospital for a possible broken nose lol This is anime though, that part was put there for comedic purposes. Ranka's reaction towards Ozma's comment was a [i]typical reaction. She got mad at him for scolding her and putting her down, then ran out of the house. It was a typical brother-sister banter no matter how I look at it.]
4. Ranka sets up Alto to lie about being alone at the mall.
[Set him up to lie? ^^ Alto can tell her he had a date with Sheryl and Ranka can't do anything to him. Nothing was holding Alto back from telling her the truth. Ranka's lack of courage to openly ask Alto if he was with Sheryl is another typical behavior. There's nothing irrational or unrealistic about a person failing to be straighforward--most especially if that someone is the person you fancy and you're the shy type. The whole scene between Ranka and Alto is not something that happens rarely. People--not just teenagers--can even relate to this and can empathize with Ranka.]
7. How she handled Sheryl's and Luca's knowledge of Alto's past.
[Ranka excused herself from Luca and Sheryl because she felt disappointed of how little she knew of Alto. What is supposed to be the normal reaction here? She probably thinks they're close, but in reality, she doesn't know a thing about him. She's not going to jump in joy for this. She's bound to get disappointed by this news, and that's what happened. It's not like Alto is some random person to her. She likes Alto. Again, I honestly don't see why this is unrealistic or irrational or even unpractical for a teenager.]
8. Accepting the role of Mao
[I'm totally at a lost at how this is unrealistic for someone her age. She accepted the role of Mao after the saonome kiss. Like Bobby said, Ranka has never fallen in love before. As a teenager having witnessed the guy she likes kissing someone, is she not supposed to have the mental capacity to put two and two together and relate Mao's feelings to hers? It was a very effective push. The insecurity and self-doubt she felt when she first turned down the role was a very typical behavior teens tend to have.]
9. Birthday present - cookies
[lol baking someone cookies is honestly old fashioned, but I hear they do this in Japan. It's again, a typical expected behavior of an innocent teenage girl. It's like knitting scarf for their crushes, or worse, a sweater. One thing though, a person wouldn't put so much effort for someone they don't have strong feelings for =__= Just goes to show, how much Alto means to Ranka.]
10. Defusing the Galia IV hostage crisis; ignoring Ozma's pleas.
[I see this as one of the key things Kawamori want to make a point in Ranka's character. It's easy to say "I'll take a hundred bullets for my crush" but when you're actually in that situation, you'll most likely back down. It's human nature, noone can blame you. Just the fact that Ranka is willing to go to Galia 4 in a heartbeat is what separates the average reaction to ideal. If a person is willing to go this far, then obviously, there's a strong reason compelling that person to do so. She used her brother's motto and applied it to herself. It's a transition in Ranka's character. How? By falling in love.
"If you know you're going to regret it, then give it your all and be successful." I also think she's going to regret it if she stayed being a coward teenager. This was the turning point if she were to lose Alto or not, so this scene was critical. =)
The little show she did in Galia 4 is what's unrealistic (seriously, she & michael would've been deaf by now sitting next to those sound boosters which are supposed to be loud enough for the Zentran fleet FIRING their guns to hear), but this also has nothing with her behavior.]
Even her personality is very relatable to teenagers her age out there. Allow me to rant since we're on topic.
1. Ranka's no good. (Typical)
2. Useless when put in a battlefield--an absolute screamer. (Feel free to criticize her once you've proven you can take on a Vajra by your own hand. ^_^)
3. Fangirls over her idol. (Typical)
4. Immature. (Who isn't/wasn't?)
5. Gets completely motivated by her crush. (Typical)
6. Lacks self-esteem. (Typical)
7. Rebels (Ty.pi.cal)
What else? Can't live without her cellphone? lol Ranka's character is your average high schooler thrown into a Vajra battlefield unaware of her own potential. (I can say the same for Alto but that's not the point here.) I believe this is also why Ranka is so prominent in the storyline.
1. Disagree. She's bad at what? Baking? Unfounded assertion since the series has yet to show us what Ranka is bad at.
- Ranka has been saying "Someone like me" from the very start. That's already a "no good" attitude. This is not unfounded assertion. In fact, her "no good" qualities are some of the qualities I listed below. She's no good when it comes to communicating her feelings. She's no good when it comes fighting, she's no good when it comes to looks, she's no good when it comes to baking lol, she's no good in dealing with her suspension from school. The "no good" label can go on and on.
2. Disagree, not a female teenager specific trait. This one applies to all age groups and genders.
It does apply to everyone--even teenagers her age---so why are we disagreeing here?:)
3. Agree
4. Agree
5. Disagree, this applies to all age groups and genders, but I'll give you this one.
Same thing for here.
6. Disagree, this applies to all age groups and genders. A more appropriate trait would be the lack of direction.
Same thing for here. Teenagers have self-esteem issues. I don't see why we are disagreeing if we both agree that this also applies to teenagers. It's kind of pointless.:heh:
While lack of direction is also an appropriate trait for teenagers, lack of self-esteem relate to Ranka more and is also as valid.
7. Disagree. Unfounded assertion since Ranka has not demonstrated any rebellious actions. The closest we have is when she takes on Michael's challenge at Folmo mall.
lol Ranka ran away from home, killed her cellphone so that Ozma can't reach her, went into a brat mode all because Ozma didn't want her participating in Miss Macross. She was being limited. She was all bitter that Ozma didn't tell her that he was in the army, so she thought it's okay to be selfish too and hide things from him as payback. Is this not rebellion?:heh: A typical teenager story.
For Ranka to be a "normal" teenager, the series needed to show us what life is like for the typical high school student. Unfortunately it failed to do so and now we need to pull from other animes and real life experiences to set the standard of what is a normal teenager on Frontier.
I believe MF has shown us what it's like to be a high schooler living in a fleet caught in the middle of the battle and their respective personal issues. We all know this isn't a slice of life anime.:D
I would expect a normal teenage girl to:
1. Be a high school student.
Ranka is a high school student.
2. Have some normal friends and classmates.
Ranka has a best friend, Nanase. Alto, Luca, Michael are normal. They're normal teenagers despite their family backgrounds and pilot training. Together they're friends who will hang out together in cafes, stairways, pools, study groups etc. How normal can you get? lol You don't need to befriend the whole community to be called normal.
3. Have an after school activity (hobby, club, part-time job)
Yes, Ranka has a part-time job. Her hobby is singing and fangirling over Sheryl and wasting prepaid on her cellphone. In ep 9, she looks like she's part of a choir or something.
4. Experience love, probably for the first time.
Alto Saotome. Omniscient Bobby even said so.:)
5. Find direction in their life, be it university or career or something after high school.
I know for a fact it's normal to have no clue which direction you want to go in your teenage years. Ranka's desire to be a singer stems from her Aimo, Sheryl's influence, and Alto's encouragement. It's a direction that can change over time once she finds something more meaningful.
6. Behave like a teenager.
She is behaving like a teenager as I pointed up there. Just because she can be like a big burst of sunshine sometimes does not make her mentally delayed. I know you didn't say this, but I'm just saying.
7. Dress similar to other students around her.
If you're talking about fashion, I think this is more like a personal preference and it depends on the person--and in this case, the character designer.
Kawamori and team totally failed at depicting Ranka as a high school student. You wouldn't know she was a high school student if she wasn't wearing a school uniform.
She was made underdeveloped because girls like her are common esp. in Japan. Y'know, 156 cm, 42 kg (Ranka's height & wt) is actually average in Asian countries. I know girls from my high school that looked as young as Miclone Klan in their 16s. Ranka has it easy. I think this is more like a culture difference more than anything.
How many scenes do we have of Ranka at school participating in a school activity? Practically 0. It would be a stretch but we could include her introduction to the class and Sheryl's introduction to the class and we would have 2 scenes. Ranka as a high school student is completely undeveloped.
This isn't a slice of life. Ranka's high school life is irrelevant compared to her stardom and the Vajra. Those latter two are more relevant to the plot, so of course they'll have more focus. The sense of 'normalcy' Kawamori wants to portray in Ranka's character is seen through her appearance and characteristics typical teenagers can relate to.
Her choice for book bag (the VF backpack), sleeping attire (hippo-cow suit), and scarf & dress weekend attire all suggests that she's a middle school student at most. If it wasn't for the fact that Ranka wears a high school uniform and that we're told her 16th birthday is soon, we'd never know that she was approaching adulthood.
Lol, she's being criticized because of her fashion sense. Just because she has a hippo-cow suit and likes to wear a jumper does not make her less of a teenager.:heh: It's not in the looks, it's how she acts and perceives things. She gets upset once she gets groped, she blushes at a thought of a kiss, she makes this face --> *__* over Alto. She got upset when Alto offered to come with her to the bathroom like some elementary schooler. She's body conscious enough. Don't judge a book by its cover. :)She's an innocent teenager.
The Ranka shown to us in the last 15 episodes is a far cry of what a normal teenager in Frontier should probably be. If Kawamori and staff intended to show us that Ranka was representative of a "normal" teenager on Frontier, then I'd have to argue that they screwed up by first failing to establish what a typical teenage girl is like and then failing to show that Ranka has similar traits.
I totally disagree that Kawamori screwed up in establishing the typical teenage girl image on Ranka and I already listed them up there. For a sci-fi show trying to relate its characters to the teen audience, he did a nice job.
Episode 10 - 13 has basically been one big Ranka development arc, with her pulling off her Moe deathstar supermove in episode 12. I would anticipate something similiar for Sheryl between episode 18 - 23. If there is no supermove from Sheryl by episode 23, then yeah, probably Ranka X Alto is it. However, I'm keeping my fingers crossed until then
I think Sheryl's about to do an Alto attack next episode and jeopardize Ranka's love life. Isn't that a good thing?:rolleyes: I'm pretty sure Northern Cross will have a special introduction because of it.:) That would suck for Ranka obviously, but she gets to spend time with Brera instead so I'll spare the empathy next time lol
magnuskn
2008-07-24, 00:34
Well, I never expected anything Megumi x Ayato to be fruitful. It was clear to me in the beginning that Haruka was the destined one.
And I like Haruka more, so nyah.
As for Megumi X Ayato in Rahxephon... we all knew that was never going to happen anyway. ;) Ahh... memories of shipper wars long ago. :heh:
What can I say, I was young(er), foolish and I really like red-heads. :p
Magnus
I hope you're not looking to me for a rebuttal of a rebuttal, cause it ain't going to happen. 1 long ass post is enough to satisfy me for a couple of months.
But there are a couple of interesting topics I want to address:
1. Ranka's rebellious tendacies. Some would argue that her fight with Ozma was an act of teenage rebellion because he didn't want her participating in the pageant. I'd argue that it is simply a parent-child fight because the arguement is happening after the fact. They are not arguing whether or not she should compete, instead they are arguing over the fact that she got suspended. Ranka is not challenging Ozma's perceptions and expectations, she's throwing pots, pans, knives, and Minmei dolls b/c Ozma insulted her and hurt her feelings. Now if they had this arguement before the Miss Macross pageant and Ranka still went forward to compete, then I'd say that was an act of a rebellious teenager.
There is only 1 instance where Ranka rebels against someone else's preconceptions of her and that's when she takes up Michael's challenge at Folmo mall. I thought there was going to be a 2nd rebellious event based on her complaints that Ozma treats her like a child, but that act never materialized.
2. Ranka "the high school student" is a completely undeveloped character. Aside from wearing a uniform and saying "hello, I'm your fellow high school classmate" there are no other character developments to back this up. This is a real problem b/c the other 4 high school students (Nanase, Alto, Michael, and Luca) have all had their student background fleshed out. You see them participate in school activities, hang around classrooms, interact with other students (to a degree), discuss their education, etc. There wasn't a whole lot of screen time dedicated to this kind of character development but it was enough that the 3 supporting characters have a more solid foundation as high school students than the main female character. Even Sheryl, who wasn't even a student when the series started, has a more developed high school background than Ranka at this point. I find that to be a huge problem if the audience is expected to view Ranka to be of the same age and maturity level as the other teenage characters.
I don't really care about long posts so long as I can get my point across.:)
Rebellion= refusal to accept some authority or code or convention.
Ozma and Ranka are brother and sister legally. This is what she did in episode 5. She went against Ozma. She rebelled. I don't think this is just an interpretation.
2. Ranka "the high school student" is a completely undeveloped character. Aside from wearing a uniform and saying "hello, I'm your fellow high school classmate" there are no other character developments to back this up.
I disagree with this, but still the point here is that Ranka's character is shown to be a normal teenager that can easily relate to teenage girls her age. If anything I said up there couldn't convince you, maybe you should just watch the first episode to see how down to earth Ranka's character was made to be. If Kawamori wanted MF's characters to appeal to teenagers, he's going to do it in the first episode and work from there. That's what he did.
I also disagree with Sheryl having a more developed high school background than Ranka. lol I mean, how did Sheryl, who never had a former high school, have a more developed high school background than Ranka? The schooling takes place offscreen. I never saw Ranka's former school, yet I have a clear idea of what kind of school it was. High school has little focus in the story simply because the plot doesn't lie in their high school life. If you look at Ranka's blog, Nanase's talking about a group study with Alto and the gang. Ranka's blog and all the random things she pours there are, sad to say, a typical teenager musing. Shallow. It's rare to see teenagers put meaningful stuffs in their journal 24/7. Atleast it's rare here in my environment.
Okay we need some episode 16 discussion.
Michael - Neutral bystander and lover of both women or blatant Ranka x Alto shipper unhappy when Sheryl's around? You decide.
Until I see evidence proving otherwise, I will continue to think it's RankaxAlto. I might be a Sheryl fan but I'm not going to believe in a SherylxAlto ending because of that. I need facts. Hopefully Kawamori will give me something soon to lead me to believe in a SherylxAlto ending. I'm not dismissing it and saying there is no chance in hell of it happening. I'm just saying at this point in time, it doesn't look like it's happening. Kawamori can easily change that in a couple episodes though. An example in another anime where I initially thought the couple didn't have a shot, but recently changed my mind would be...
It's kind of like in CG with the LuluxC.C. thing. They got zero development this season and I was almost ready to completely write them off. I knew episode 15 would be the last chance to salvage it and after that it would be toast if nothing happened. They did the super move and now I do believe LuluxC.C. have an excellent chance.
So similarly, if Kawamori does a major move to develop Alto and Sheryl then I'll be more likely to believe they have a shot. But right now I'm just not seeing any major romantic vibes between the two....it's mostly the dunce Alto's fault.
Though yeah, I agree Ranka's Little Queen meter is going off. That's why I think there might be a Zero like ending instead.
Does Ep 16 help with that? ;)
Okay we need some episode 16 discussion.
Michael - Neutral bystander and lover of both women or blatant Ranka x Alto shipper unhappy when Sheryl's around? You decide.
Michael is obviously neutral bystander at this point. Maybe in the past he wanted to help Ranka more, but now that he understands Sheryl's POV, for Michael it's a wash.
Btw Ani d: How many predictions have you gotten correct in relationship endings for series?
ani_d thinks she got the Sheryl is a bridge bunny prediction right because Sheryl went to the bridge. That's about it. :heh:
I think Michael is about as neutral as Sheryl is going to get. Everyone else in the show obviously supports Ranka, but he at least seems to notice her feelings.
We also need to discuss Alto's reaction to Brera. Some (won't say who) are taking it as solely jealously towards his relationship with Ranka. Others, like myself, are taking it as a huge combination of things.
Re : Geass. I don't think Geass ever had the love triangle some fans think it did. C.C. was pretty much obvious from the first episode of the first season.
Episode 16... Sheryl hasn't done a super move, but for all of Ranka's super move not much has changed at all between the three of them.
Btw Ani d: How many predictions have you gotten correct in relationship endings for series?
You can ask Westlo. He's a big fan of my True Tears predictions it seems.;) lol
Okay we need some episode 16 discussion.
Michael - Neutral bystander and lover of both women or blatant Ranka x Alto shipper unhappy when Sheryl's around? You decide.
Wait, I have a better one.
Michael- RankaxAlto supporter but is level-headed enough to let Alto decide on his own = 1
Michael obviously has supported Ranka more then Sheryl for a few reasons, he knows her better, Ozma, she's blatant with how she feels and if she's hurt and Michael picks up on that when Alto doesn't (hey! maybe they should get together!?!?), and the fact that Sheryl doesn't need his support and doesn't outwardly show she's vulnerable. But he's in no way picking sides between either one of them. I think he'd rather like it if Alto stopped being stupid, noticed both girls care for him and pick a side, any side, just stop being an idiot.
If Michael has supported Ranka more than he did Sheryl, then how is it that he's not picking sides again? =/ And I'm twisting it whenever I say he's more of a Ranka supporter than a Sheryl one? lol If Alto picked Sheryl over Ranka, I don't see Michael going all Nanase on him. I don't think he would go that far. But if Michael were to pick who to support, I do see him supporting Ranka over Sheryl since he IS closer to Ranka and he's been doing that for so many episodes now. That's my point.
You mention episode 13, but you took that as Michael and Sheryl having an interest in one another:heh:. Now it's something different?
Oh wow, now my liking for the MichaelxSheryl interaction is suddenly against me?:rolleyes: From what I remember, I thought I said that Michael did tease Sheryl about Alto in 13. Is this supposed to be something I twisted again?:p You might want to quote a post from me saying otherwise. Though I doubt you can.
Going by what you said though, considering he's teasing her about Alto in 13, right after he "set up" Alto x Ranka in episode 12 that means one of two things, he's just an asshole who wants to hurt Sheryl, who he knows cares for Alto, or he wanted Alto to go make up for the shitty way he treated Ranka and take her home while Sheryl was obviously unable to leave. He teased her because he knows she cares for Alto and nothing more. He wasn't throwing Ranka in her face. I'm not sure I'm a fan of your version of Michael.
I think everyone knows that Michael IS aware of Sheryl's feelings for Alto. He knew that since episode 8. Yet, the fact that, he volunteered to get Sheryl out of Alto's way so that Ranka and him CAN spend time together pretty much tells you where he stands. It's not like this is the only time he pushed Ranka to Alto. There were lots of instances, isn't it? And yes, Michael teased Sheryl because he knows she cares for Alto. And no, he's not an a*shole for doing so even if he chose to support Ranka. ^_^ Michael was giving her credit and praising her. It was cute. However, this doesn't really make him a neutral supporter, no matter how much you want him to be.
Seriously, how can you be a neutral when you're closer to the other side than the other?:uhoh:
As for the other issues like BreraxAlto jealousy etc etc...I'll leave that for next time. I'm done for tonight. -_-
ani_d thinks she got the Sheryl is a bridge bunny prediction right because Sheryl went to the bridge. That's about it. :heh:
I think Michael is about as neutral as Sheryl is going to get. Everyone else in the show obviously supports Ranka, but he at least seems to notice her feelings.
We also need to discuss Alto's reaction to Brera. Some (won't say who) are taking it as solely jealously towards his relationship with Ranka. Others, like myself, are taking it as a huge combination of things.
Re : Geass. I don't think Geass ever had the love triangle some fans think it did. C.C. was pretty much obvious from the first episode of the first season.
Episode 16... Sheryl hasn't done a super move, but for all of Ranka's super move not much has changed at all between the three of them.
you can't say nothing has changed... After episode 15 I believe everything has changed. Sheryl is obviously gonna go full on for Alto. Ranka is probably gonna grow more distant from Alto. Brera's gonna be a barrier between them. It's Alto's choice to decide whether he's gonna pursue her or he's gonna slowly go for Sheryl. But I believe it's obvious who he likes when he's all out for Ranka trying to protect her.
Oh wow, now my liking for the MichaelxSheryl interaction is suddenly against me?:rolleyes: From what I remember, I thought I said that Michael did tease Sheryl about Alto in 13. Is this supposed to be something I twisted again?:p You might want to quote a post from me saying otherwise. Though I doubt you can
You are the one who went over and beyond with all that Mikhail x Sheryl gig, not us.
Yet, with such an obvious Ranka x Berera interaction here, I have not seen you post a similar tirade about Ranka x Berera. Although as a Ranka shipper, you probably won't touch that pairing with a 10ft pole, but to the rest of us, it doesn't really help convince the rest of us that you are being objective, but someone who prefers to watch everything with shipper lenses, and nitpick everything that would otherwise affect your desired shipping arrangements.
- Tak
justinstrife
2008-07-26, 12:41
you can't say nothing has changed... After episode 15 I believe everything has changed. Sheryl is obviously gonna go full on for Alto. Ranka is probably gonna grow more distant from Alto. Brera's gonna be a barrier between them. It's Alto's choice to decide whether he's gonna pursue her or he's gonna slowly go for Sheryl. But I believe it's obvious who he likes when he's all out for Ranka trying to protect her.
It doesn't help the fact that Ranka is younger than Sheryl, and not as capable of trying to protect herself. Also, she tends to be in danger considerably more often than Sheryl. If the roles were reversed and Sheryl was in the middle of danger every other episode, he might be more inclined to act towards her the way he does towards Ranka in battles.
Stretch5920
2008-07-26, 13:39
Why would anyone want Ranka to end up with a jerk like Alto anyway? He's a dick. I'm a Ranka fan who wants her to grow on her own, it would make my day to see her realise that Alto isn't the guy she thought he was and basically dumps his ass, but too bad that won't happen like that.
I say let Brera and Ranka rekindle their sibling relationship, and Sherly and Alto can go whine about Brera and Ranka being better a pilot/singer than them together.
Swampstorm
2008-07-26, 14:28
I don't quite understand the point of this debate over which couple Michael is "shipping", if any. How is that relevant?
If Ranka's got a team of people setting her up on the romantic front, and another team of people who are giving her a massive promotions blitz while trying to poison off/sabotage her competition, what exactly is Ranka doing? Aside from falling back on her innate powers, that is.
Ranka's on a very slippery slope right now. Deep down she realizes that she's selling out by serving Grace and co. (which shows in her singing of Aimo), but she doesn't have the willpower to stand up against it. Sooner or later, she's going to have to face up to that and set things right. Having all the friends in the world doesn't matter, if you're willing to let them be discarded.
You can wear the same outfits, you can deliver the same lines, but you just can't mimic strength of character. That's something Ranka's going to have to build on her own, without outside help. Then the real character development will begin.
Stretch5920
2008-07-26, 14:39
Ranka's on a very slippery slope right now. Deep down she realizes that she's selling out by serving Grace and co. (which shows in her singing of Aimo), but she doesn't have the willpower to stand up against it. Sooner or later, she's going to have to face up to that and set things right. Having all the friends in the world doesn't matter, if you're willing to let them be discarded.
It's obvious Ranka doesn't feel good about it, but knowing that her singing can prevent loss of life against the Vajra is hardly something she can just turn down. She's not doing it to make money or steal Sheryl's fame.
It's obvious Ranka doesn't feel good about it, but knowing that her singing can prevent loss of life against the Vajra is hardly something she can just turn down. She's not doing it to make money or steal Sheryl's fame.
I think Swampy's point was that with Ranka as she is right now, is she willing to remain the puppet of Grace & co. or eventually develop her own strength and her own ideas as to how her powers should be utilized.
It has nothing to do with stealing anything, really.
- Tak
Wesley84
2008-07-26, 15:32
I don't quite understand the point of this debate over which couple Michael is "shipping", if any. How is that relevant?
If Ranka's got a team of people setting her up on the romantic front, and another team of people who are giving her a massive promotions blitz while trying to poison off/sabotage her competition, what exactly is Ranka doing? Aside from falling back on her innate powers, that is.
Ranka's on a very slippery slope right now. Deep down she realizes that she's selling out by serving Grace and co. (which shows in her singing of Aimo), but she doesn't have the willpower to stand up against it. Sooner or later, she's going to have to face up to that and set things right. Having all the friends in the world doesn't matter, if you're willing to let them be discarded.
You can wear the same outfits, you can deliver the same lines, but you just can't mimic strength of character. That's something Ranka's going to have to build on her own, without outside help. Then the real character development will begin.
So you're faulting Ranka for doing exactly what Sherly was doing, with the only difference being that Ranka is actually effective at it? Ranka's actually having some indecision, unlike Sheryl who had no problem whatsoever being a lapdog for Grace and the government.
Ranka's not sure what's right. The government and Grace are telling her one thing, that she's needed to protect Frontier. Everyone is cheering her on, calling her their freakin' savior. Hell, even Alto is onboard with the whole "Kill'em all! There can only be one!" crowd. The only one who's actually asked her what she wanted to do, with implied support one way or another is Ozma.
And add to that her own personal experiences with the Vajra which range from a child-hood trauma that she's told involved the complete annilation of her immediate family, and the seemingly empathetic experience she had with them while being a captive, she just doesn't know. And no one is either able or willing to help her figure it out.
Although I'm sure Alto will say or do something that's completely out of context to her current problem, such as folding a plane or yelling crazily at a fire hudrant or something. Or Sheryl will strike that same ole stupid stuck up pose of hers and say some generic inspirational line that has absolutely no real advice to it.
So she's got mixed feelings, she's not sure what's right, her loved ones are supposedly in immediate and deadly danger, and people keep telling her, cheering her in fact, that she's doing the right thing, won't give her a straight answer, or are outright lying to her.
Everybody, and I mean, everybody, on Frontier thinks the Vajra are simple monsters. Ranka's the only one with any apparent doubts, and when you're in that kind of situation, with all the glory, fame, and righteousness supposedly laid out on the path before you, you'd have to be super human or a plain idiot to turn it down.
Swampstorm
2008-07-26, 16:10
I'm not talking about blame here. I'm talking about growth.
Ranka's intentions are no doubt good. The problem is that the ends don't justify the means. Elmo stood by Ranka through thick and thin. Ranka knew that it was wrong to ditch him (since she did raise the issue), but she didn't have the strength to stand up for him. Most people can see the slippery slope, but few have the strength to consistantly hold their course to the high ground. That's what strength of character is all about.
There are things that are obviously outside of her control. It would be silly to say that Ranka's allowing herself to be a lapdog for Grace any more than it would Sheryl, since even the viewers don't have a clue about what Grace's plans really are. But Ranka's been given some clear red flags, and it's going to be up to her to learn to put her foot down as things come up.
As for Ranka's sympathy for the Vajra, well... she's the only one who's ever communicated with them. So a lot rests on her ability to stand up for their sake, as well, since nobody else can. Many things hinge on Ranka's ability to develop her own individuality, since nobody else can figure this out for her.
But this comes back to the issue of guidance that I was talking about. While Ranka was never really good at making decisions on her own, she happened to stick around the right crowd, so she didn't go astray. Now she's suddenly surrounded by people whose have ill intentions for both her and her friends, so she'll definitely need to learn to make up her own mind about things. Neither Sheryl nor Alto can save her from this situation: this time, Ranka needs to save herself.
I don't doubt that she's going to grow through this. But in order to do so, she'll need to move past her supports to become her own person. That's part of growing up.
Key Board
2008-07-26, 16:13
I still stand by my Macross golden rule of triangles theory
(you can win the love triangle or save the galazy but not both)
however,
recently I'm starting to wonder if it might be Sheryl after all, who saves the galaxy. They're playing her to be such a disposable project and insignificant that it might actually be building her up to betray their expectations
Wesley84
2008-07-26, 16:24
Ranka's intentions are no doubt good. The problem is that the ends don't justify the means. Elmo stood by Ranka through thick and thin. Ranka knew that it was wrong to ditch Elmo (since she did raise the issue), but she didn't have the strength to stand up for him. Most people can see the slippery slope, but few people have the strength to consistantly hold their course to the high ground. That's what strength of character is all about.
It's not ends justify the means. That implies you're doing something wrong to accomplish a good deed. Ranka's being told that beyond a shadow of a doubt, she's doing the right thing. And she didn't leave Elmo, the government seperated them. Try not paying taxes sometime as a matter of principal and see how far "strength of character" gets you.
There are things that are obviously outside of her control. It would be silly to say that Ranka's allowing herself to be a lapdog for Grace any more than it would Sheryl, since even the viewers don't have a clue about what Grace's plans really are. But Ranka's been given some clear red flags, and it's going to be up to her to learn to put her foot down.
Sheryl hasn't shown any capacity to act outside her programming beyond her selfish need to have Alto dot on her.
And what flags might those be?
As for Ranka's sympathy for the Vajra, well... she's the only one who's ever communicated with them. So a lot rests on her ability to stand up for their sake, as well, since nobody else can. Developing Ranka's individuality is more important than ever.
She's probably the single most scared shitless by them individual in all of Frontier, and she has no one to confide in about her experiences to gain perspective because they're all basically saying she should kill the whole lot of them.
But this comes back to the issue of guidance that I was talking about. While Ranka was never really good at making decisions on her own, she happened to stick around the right crowd, so she didn't go astray. Now she's suddenly surrounded by people whose have ill intentions for both her and her friends, so she'll definitely need to learn to make up her own mind about things. Neither Sheryl nor Alto can save her from this situation: this time, Ranka needs to save herself.
No, she's surrounded by the same people as she's always been surrounded by. They're just telling her things she's not too sure about.
I don't doubt that she's going to grow through this. But in order to do so, she'll need to move past her supports to become her own person. That's part of growing up.
This isn't about personal growth. This is about figuring out what to do with her current circumstances. What the right thing to do is. Fact is she just doesn't know what to make of any of it, but she's told she still has to act for the sake of everyone.
Swampstorm
2008-07-26, 16:46
It's not ends justify the means. That implies you're doing something wrong to accomplish a good deed. Ranka's being told that beyond a shadow of a doubt, she's doing the right thing. And she didn't leave Elmo, the government seperated them. Try not paying taxes sometime as a matter of principal and see how far "strength of character" gets you.Ranka knew that ditching Elmo wasn't the right thing to do, but she allowed herself to settle for the fact that it was "for the sake of the government". That's definitely an "ends justify the means" scenario. It's a tough thing for anyone to struggle with, but that's where strength of character comes in.
The government needs Ranka more than she needs them, so she has the ability to dictate the terms of their arrangement. If she decided to force a compromise, she could have supported Elmo.
But I'm sure that she will eventually break free, once she develops the strength, and she will eventually need to rectify things with Elmo, tax collectors or not.
She's probably the single most scared shitless by them individual in all of Frontier, and she has no one to confide in about her experiences to gain perspective because they're all basically saying she should kill the whole lot of them.Courage is the ability to stand by your convictions, in spite of being scared. Ranka's been allowing people to run her life for her, and only by taking charge can she stand up for her beliefs. That's where she stands to grow.
No, she's surrounded by the same people as she's always been surrounded by. They're just telling her things she's not too sure about.In place of Alto, Michael, Nanase, and Elmo, she now is being pulled into the company of Brera, Leon, and Grace. Even the fight between Alto and Brera was symbolic in that sense; her old mentors are slowly being supplanted.
This isn't about personal growth. This is about figuring out what to do with her current circumstances. What the right thing to do is. Fact is she just doesn't know what to make of any of it, but she's told she still has to act for the sake of everyone.The reason why she doesn't know what to do is because she is used to the comfort of relying on others for support. This situation is all about character development, and it will ultimately turn out be a test of her backbone.
That's definitely a good thing for her. :)
Anh_Minh
2008-07-26, 17:15
Ranka knew that ditching Elmo wasn't the right thing to do, but she allowed herself to settle for the fact that it was "for the sake of the government". That's definitely an "ends justify the means" scenario. It's a tough thing for anyone to struggle with, but that's where strength of character comes in.
It's not really that clear cut. They've basically told her "Your country needs you". It's obvious that as far as fighting the Vajra go, Elmo would just be a dead weight. As long as he get "properly compensated" for the loss of his star artist, ditching him may be the right thing to do.
Wesley84
2008-07-26, 17:22
Ranka knew that ditching Elmo wasn't the right thing to do, but she allowed herself to settle for the fact that it was "for the sake of the government". That's definitely an "ends justify the means" scenario. It's a tough thing for anyone to struggle with, but that's where strength of character comes in.
The government needs Ranka more than she needs them, so she has the ability to dictate the terms of their arrangement. If she decided to force a compromise, she could have supported Elmo.
But I'm sure that she will eventually break free, once she develops the strength, and she will eventually need to rectify things with Elmo, tax collectors or not.
The only way Elmo could have remained her manager was to have him work for the government. That being the case, "ditching" was probably the biggest favor she could have done for him. Suffice to say, she'd have stuck with the guy through thick and thin under normal circumstances.
Courage is the ability to stand by your convictions, in spite of being scared. Ranka's been allowing people to run her life for her, and only by taking charge can she stand up for her beliefs. That's where she stands to grow.
She doesn't know what the Vajra are. Convictions are bloody meaningless if they're not applicable to your current circumstances. Fact is, Ranka saying "I don't know" and standing back as the Vajra tear her world apart would be an incredibly selfish thing to do. Survival first, so that you might have time for regrets later.
In place of Alto, Michael, Nanase, and Elmo, she now is being pulled into the company of Brera, Leon, and Grace. Even the fight between Alto and Brera was symbolic in that sense; her old mentors are slowly being supplanted.
There's no where near the degree of seperation as you're implying. There's also nothing to indicate any of those guys would be at all helpful with her current set of circumstances.
The reason why she doesn't know what to do is because she is used to the comfort of relying on others for support. This situation is all about character development, and it will ultimately turn out be a test of her backbone.
That's definitely a good thing for her. :)
I'm getting really sick of people saying she lacks confidence, she lacks backbone, just because she's not a horrible bitch who'll act out of hand in the face of any given circumstances, while Sheryl is lauded for tremendous strength when she hasn't done, said, or experienced a goddamn thing that'd justify that thought. She POSES and ACTS tough without actually appreicating her circumstances or the people around her. She blissfulyl bullshits her way through everything without any sense of responsiblity. That is not STRENGTH, that is denial of reality!
Swampstorm
2008-07-26, 18:09
It's not really that clear cut. They've basically told her "Your country needs you". It's obvious that as far as fighting the Vajra go, Elmo would just be a dead weight. As long as he get "properly compensated" for the loss of his star artist, ditching him may be the right thing to do.It could be. But Ranka didn't seem to really agree with the idea much herself. Really speaking, if she didn't want Elmo to be her manager, she could have done so at any time. But I did think that she wanted to keep him; it's just that she couldn't fight for him.
The only way Elmo could have remained her manager was to have him work for the government. That being the case, "ditching" was probably the biggest favor she could have done for him.It might have been good, or it might have been bad. Of course, one might question what Ranka's government project has to do with her personal career, but that's not really on par with Ranka's way of thinking, I suppose.
But the main point is that her gut instincts told her that it wasn't quite right, but she allowed herself to go along with it. It's not a trivial feat by any means, but it does require a certain amount of inner strength to resist. But I'm positive that Ranka will start standing up for herself as she sees herself gets pushed further and further away from how she originally envisioned herself to be.
She doesn't know what the Vajra are. Convictions are bloody meaningless if they're not applicable to your current circumstances. Fact is, Ranka saying "I don't know" and standing back as the Vajra tear her world apart would be an incredibly selfish thing to do. Survival first, so that you might have time for regrets later.As I mentioned earlier, Ranka has no information about the Vajra, so you can't fault her for being used. But as I mentioned earlier, her gut feelings tell her that something is amiss, and it's a simply a matter of time that her doubts grow to the point where she realizes that she must put a stop to this.
There's no where near the degree of seperation as you're implying. There's also nothing to indicate any of those guys would be at all helpful with her current set of circumstances.Physically, no, but the separation is still there, nonetheless.
I'm getting really sick of people saying she lacks confidence, she lacks backbone, just because she's not a horrible bitch who'll act out of hand in the face of any given circumstances, while Sheryl is lauded for tremendous strength when she hasn't done, said, or experienced a goddamn thing that'd justify that thought. She POSES and ACTS tough without actually appreicating her circumstances or the people around her. She blissfulyl bullshits her way through everything without any sense of responsiblity. That is not STRENGTH, that is denial of reality!Sheryl's problem is the exact opposite of Ranka. Where Ranka is very trusting, Sheryl has great difficulty with placing her faith in others (and I think that the shock that she experiences from Grace's betrayal will be a test of that). She stands to grow significantly by learning to open herself up to the people around her.
But on the positive side, Sheryl is fiercely individualistic and very strong-willed. Both girls have their strengths, both have their weaknesses, and they complement each other nicely. But they can both stand to grow by learning from each other.
Wesley84
2008-07-26, 19:01
It might have been good, or it might have been bad. Of course, one might question what Ranka's government project has to do with her personal career, but that's not really on par with Ranka's way of thinking, I suppose.
Government says "Save peoples lives!" and saving people = good, therefore Ranka-chan helps the government. Not like how Sheryl smuggly used her influence to manipulate people into fighting a war, because people are such sheep.
But the main point is that her gut instincts told her that it wasn't quite right, but she allowed herself to go along with it. It's not a trivial feat by any means, but it does require a certain amount of inner strength to resist. But I'm positive that Ranka will start standing up for herself as she sees herself gets pushed further and further away from how she originally envisioned herself to be.
Her brain is telling her gut she's not sure about what they're doing, because of her own personal experiences, which are pretty damn confusing given her shotty memory. Alto might like to pretend the past doesn't matter, but it's really freakin' important when you don't remember it.
As I mentioned earlier, Ranka has no information about the Vajra, so you can't fault her for being used. But as I mentioned earlier, her gut feelings tell her that something is amiss, and it's a simply a matter of time that her doubts grow to the point where she realizes that she must put a stop to this.
No, she does have information about the Vajra. She probably even saw a side of them that NO ONE had ever seen before. What she needs to do is confirm things for herself. Not stubbornly refuse to do her duty because of a gut feeling as you seem to want her to do.
Physically, no, but the separation is still there, nonetheless.
Seems like it's no worse than when she achieved celebrity status. Better in fact, since she's actively working with the SMS and probably will be for some time.
Sheryl's problem is the exact opposite of Ranka. Where Ranka is very trusting, Sheryl has great difficulty with placing her faith in others (and I think that the shock that she experiences from Grace's betrayal will be a test of that). She stands to grow significantly by learning to open herself up to the people around her.
Sheryl just doesn't seem interested. Like an aristocrat looking down on the plebs. They're beneath her notice.
But on the positive side, Sheryl is fiercely individualistic and very strong-willed. Both girls have their strengths, both have their weaknesses, and they complement each other nicely. But they can both stand to grow by learning from each other.
That's just rehtoric. Sheryl hasn't proven a darn thing besides having an attitude problem and a reckless streak. She believes herself invincible, which a fairly common belief amongst people her age. I believe it's too late for her character to become something real though, and I really hope she doesn't drag Ranka down with her into utter stupidity.
Swampstorm
2008-07-26, 19:24
Government says "Save peoples lives!" and saving people = good, therefore Ranka-chan helps the government.Well, that's usually how it ends up. People say all sorts of things are "good", but it takes strength of character to decide for yourself what really is good and what isn't.
Her brain is telling her gut she's not sure about what they're doing, because of her own personal experiences, which are pretty damn confusing given her shotty memory. Alto might like to pretend the past doesn't matter, but it's really freakin' important when you don't remember it.I don't see how Ranka's memory is relevant to the Elmo issue.
No, she does have information about the Vajra. She probably even saw a side of them that NO ONE had ever seen before. What she needs to do is confirm things for herself. Not stubbornly refuse to do her duty because of a gut feeling as you seem to want her to do.You're presuming too much. I don't "want" Ranka to do something; I have faith that she eventually will, as her character continues to grow and mature. Right now, she's starting to see warning signs, but as she gets pushed further and further to the edge, Ranka will be forced to take a stand for what she believes in, rather than what someone else tells her to believe. It's a wonderful opportunity for her to develop her character.
Seems like it's no worse than when she achieved celebrity status. Better in fact, since she's actively working with the SMS and probably will be for some time.That's the interesting thing about it. She's not physically separated from her usual advisors, but she's fallen into some bad company. But as she builds her individuality, she'll be able to say with confidence what is good advice and what isn't. That's the key to overcoming this trial.
That's just rehtoric. Sheryl hasn't proven a darn thing besides having an attitude problem and a reckless streak. She believes herself invincible, which a fairly common belief amongst people her age. I believe it's too late for her character to become something real though, and I really hope she doesn't drag Ranka down with her into utter stupidity.Even the act of pointing out my rhetoric was rhetoric in itself. But part of having a strong personality is in deciding for yourself what rhetoric you want to agree with and what rhetoric you don't. ;)
I still think Sheryl X Alto has a good shot since Ranka's bug queen meter is going off the chart now. :heh: As for Megumi X Ayato in Rahxephon... we all knew that was never going to happen anyway. ;) Ahh... memories of shipper wars long ago. :heh:
There was RahXephon shipping wars? :heh: I must've missed it since I was deep in action in the Rah Vs Eva front. I like Megumi but she never had a chance... when she found that photo :(
So you're faulting Ranka for doing exactly what Sherly was doing, with the only difference being that Ranka is actually effective at it?
Can you please show me the scene of Sheryl signing at the Varja?
Wesley84
2008-07-26, 19:41
Well, that's usually how it ends up. People say all sorts of things are "good", but it takes strength of character to decide for yourself what really is good and what isn't.
It takes character to do the right thing, especially when it's neither pleasant or easy. Deciding on what is right and wrong has nothing to do with strength, as it's a simple matter of belief. Adherence is another thing altogether.
I don't see how Ranka's memory is relevant to the Elmo issue.
So the quote of yourself was in reference to having her old manager fired?
You're presuming too much. I don't "want" Ranka to do something; I have faith that she eventually will, as her character continues to grow and mature. Right now, she's starting to see warning signs, but as she gets pushed further and further to the edge, Ranka will be forced to take a stand for what she believes in, rather than what someone else tells her to believe. It's a wonderful opportunity for her to develop her character.
I doubt Ranka will have an "Enough!" moment. She might become resolved to settle her own doubts, but I don't see people pushing her into doing so. Most likely she'll have all the violence she can handle, and try to find out for herself if it's really necessary. Aka a fact finding mission to Vajraistan.
Even the act of pointing out my rhetoric was rhetoric in itself. But part of having a strong personality is in deciding for yourself what rhetoric you want to agree with and what rhetoric you don't. ;)
I have yet to see anyone justify the "strong" lable for Sheryl. The series itself hasn't at anyrate. She's simply loud and attention grabbing for all practical purposes.
Can you please show me the scene of Sheryl signing at the Varja?
I was refering to working for the government in general.
On another note, I predict Bresra and Ranka will probably be the most popular pair in Frontier before it's over.
Swampstorm
2008-07-26, 19:54
It takes character to do the right thing, especially when it's neither pleasant or easy. Deciding on what is right and wrong has nothing to do with strength, as it's a simple matter of belief. Adherence is another thing altogether.Not quite. Adopting someone else's standards on what's right and what's wrong is a simple matter of belief. Deciding for yourself what standards you believe in takes strength of character.
It's easy enough to go along with something because people say that it's "good", but it takes backbone to decide for yourself whether you really want to believe in that or not. I'm sure that this lesson will play an important part in Ranka's future growth.
So the quote of yourself was in reference to having her old manager fired?Yeah.
There's nothing that she can do about the Vajra issue, yet. But that will probably raise more doubts for Ranka too, as time goes on.
I doubt Ranka will have an "Enough!" moment. She might become resolved to settle her own doubts, but I don't see people pushing her into doing so. Most likely she'll have all the violence she can handle, and try to find out for herself if it's really necessary. Aka a fact finding mission to Vajraistan.Oh, I'm not saying that someone will actually come along and tell her to straighten up her act. As Ranka continues to serve as a tool for the government, she'll probably start to question why she's going along with them, even though deep down, she doesn't believe in what she's doing. At that point, she'll need to start making up her own mind, and her character will start to grow. A fact finding mission may well be part of deciding for herself what she wants to do.
It's all part of watching the characters grow up. Nothing unusual here.
I was refering to working for the government in general.Sheryl working for the government? Wow, that is news. I thought Sheryl working for the sake of Galaxy. Cooperating with Frongtier government is the best choice for her.
By "effective," You mean that so-called Ranka Attack which can make Minmey turn over in her grave and shock Basara to death? I have to admit that Sheryl is really inferior to Ranka in term of singing for death.
Wesley84
2008-07-26, 20:31
Sheryl working for the government? Wow, that is new. I thought Sheryl working for the sake of Galaxy. Cooperating with Frongtier government is the best choice for her.
Then you haven't been paying attention to what's been going on with her. Don't really blame you though, since the writers seem to prefer style over substance when it comes to Sheryl's character.
By "effective," You mean that so-called Ranka Attack which can make Minmey turn over in her grave and shock Basara to death? I have to admit that Sheryl is really inferior to Ranka in turn of singing for death.
By effective I mean actually accomplishing the tasks set before them. Sheryl's PR campaign vs. Ranka's Deathsong. One is obviously more useful than the other.
Yes I have to agree with you Wesley, Ranka is being used and manipulated a lot more than Sheryl ever was :)
Wesley84
2008-07-26, 21:08
Yes I have to agree with you Wesley, Ranka is being used and manipulated a lot more than Sheryl ever was :)
Yep. With Ranka they have to actually have to appeal to her better nature to get her to do what they want. With Sheryl, they just call her up and she does whatever they want for whatever reason. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that if it was Sheryl singing the Deathsong, she'd have no doubt in her mind that it was the right thing to do.
Of course she would, to her and 99.9999999999% of people in Frontier the Varja wiped out Galaxy which is her homeland. If you're trying to twist this into a negative thing about Sheryl's character than lmao, she's not the one who had a "conversation" with the Varja. She would have no reason to feel sympathetic for the Varja unlike Ranka and personally I find it hilarious they are trying to portray the Varja as sympathetic to the audience.
Yep. With Ranka they have to actually have to appeal to her better nature to get her to do what they want. With Sheryl, they just call her up and she does whatever they want for whatever reason. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that if it was Sheryl singing the Deathsong, she'd have no doubt in her mind that it was the right thing to do.
dude Sheryl's been used by Grace for like her whole life. Sheyrl has willpower and looks. Ranka has no brain and no looks, but she knows right from wrong cuz she's pretty much lived pure her own life.
Ranka has no brain and no looks,
Wow. A bit harsh aren't we. :heh:
MaiHikari
2008-07-27, 02:28
Not quite. Adopting someone else's standards on what's right and what's wrong is a simple matter of belief. Deciding for yourself what standards you believe in takes strength of character.
It's easy enough to go along with something because people say that it's "good", but it takes backbone to decide for yourself whether you really want to believe in that or not. I'm sure that this lesson will play an important part in Ranka's future growth.
I have always admired Swampstorm's posts but I think your efforts might be futile in this case. Wesley84 is not exactly reading it before quoting and responding.
I'm Sheryl x Alto for the following reasons. All of which, I'm sure has been mentioned at various threads before.
1. It creeps me out that Ranka looks like she's 12 and should not be in a relationship with a guy. Not only does she look 12, she acts 12. From her choice of clothing to the way she wears her hair, to the way she responds to others around her, she's just a little girl with a crush. She's still developing and the anime is working on it; but in the end, that would require her to be less dependent on others (especially Alto) and make decisions for herself.
2. This anime makes it seem like Alto feels more like a man when he's protecting Ranka. Remember his complex about being a kabuki actor specialized in playing women. What will happen when Ranka matures and learns to protect herself? It certainly doesn't sound like a good base for a long lasting relationship.
3. I love Sheryl! She's smart, independent, spontaneous, and really good hearted. Even though Ranka seems to be taking everything away from her, she still treats her like a friend. She's jealous, of course, but she didn't whine and bitch about it, or scheme to hurt Ranka. In fact, at the end of ep 16, she seem to be more upset that Ranka was being used as a tool of war than jealous of her popularity.
Despite these reasons though, I feel like Kawamori would kill off Sheryl at the end of the story. Why? Because she's most likely a clone and he wants to communicate the message that despite your backgrounds, you can always shape who you become. Ranka was born a Vajra Queen, but she decides to chose her own destiny. Alto was born a kabuki actor, but he chose to become a pilot. Sheryl was created a clone, but she loved and she lived, brighter than any other star in the universe. I still hope she lives happily ever after with Alto in the end though.
Anh_Minh
2008-07-27, 03:24
It could be. But Ranka didn't seem to really agree with the idea much herself. Really speaking, if she didn't want Elmo to be her manager, she could have done so at any time. But I did think that she wanted to keep him; it's just that she couldn't fight for him.
Wanting something and knowing it's the right thing to do are two very different things. Only the most thoroughly spoiled children don't know that.
It might have been good, or it might have been bad. Of course, one might question what Ranka's government project has to do with her personal career, but that's not really on par with Ranka's way of thinking, I suppose.
But the main point is that her gut instincts told her that it wasn't quite right, but she allowed herself to go along with it. It's not a trivial feat by any means, but it does require a certain amount of inner strength to resist. But I'm positive that Ranka will start standing up for herself as she sees herself gets pushed further and further away from how she originally envisioned herself to be.
Gut feeling can easily be wrong. I know mine have been. For example, my gut feeling tells me not to let people stick needles in me. I still get my shots and let doctors get their blood samples. What's her head telling her?
Well, after ep16, it'll tell her she can help kill the Vajra, thus making battles safer for her friends and family. Sure, she still has misgivings. But rationally speaking, Vajra are the enemy, and she can help save the lives of her countrymen. The right thing to do is to go along with it.
Where she's possibly lacking is that she didn't talk to anyone about her doubts. About the fact the Vajra communicated with her. But refusing to help because of a vague feeling that could easily be attributed to fear? Wrong.
Where she's possibly lacking is that she didn't talk to anyone about her doubts. About the fact the Vajra communicated with her. But refusing to help because of a vague feeling that could easily be attributed to fear? Wrong.
I'll second you on that. That might be Ranka's biggest sin, not telling anyone that she was able to communicate with the Vajara.
If Ranka ever stands up for herself and resists the government plans, hopefully it will be because she can see the big picture and not for a more selfish motive (i.e. she doesn't like the way Grace is twisting her songs and image).
Why does it feel like I'm reading the same arguement post after post after post...
Wesley84
2008-07-27, 12:15
I think Sheryl will win, because Ranka will simply not like the new/real Alto. The Alto that is a very angry, violent guy that doesn't appreciate anything. Sheryl on the other hand seems perfectly satisifed with simply being in his presense and he's not going to tell her no for whatever reason.
Swampstorm
2008-07-27, 12:31
Wanting something and knowing it's the right thing to do are two very different things. Only the most thoroughly spoiled children don't know that.In most cases, there isn't any absolute right or wrong thing to do. But what matters is that you live in accordance with your own principles, and accept the responsibility for them. The problem here wasn't that Ranka did something "bad" so much as she allowed her principles to be violated.
That last point sets up an important distinction. Someone who is independent wants to live by their own rules, and takes responsibility for them. Someone who is spoiled wants to live by their own rules, but doesn't want to have to take responsibility for them.
That's what makes this situation so difficult. It's so much easier to simply comply and pass the responsibility on to someone else than it is to stand your ground and live by that choice.
Gut feeling can easily be wrong. I know mine have been. For example, my gut feeling tells me not to let people stick needles in me. I still get my shots and let doctors get their blood samples. What's her head telling her?The decisions that Ranka faces aren't a simple matter of rational choice. They concern her feelings, as well. If Ranka truly believes in Grace's ideas, then she should have no qualms about doing what she's doing. But she doesn't, and part of developing her individuality will be in establishing for herself what she thinks is the appropriate action.
Where she's possibly lacking is that she didn't talk to anyone about her doubts. About the fact the Vajra communicated with her.But that's the trick. This time, there really isn't anyone whom she can talk to. She can't poll the audience or phone a friend. She's going to have to decide for herself, act on that decision, and live by it. That's what it means to become independent.
But refusing to help because of a vague feeling that could easily be attributed to fear? Wrong.Oh, I agree that there's nothing that she can do about the Vajra situation, for now. She's only being forced to give ground on relatively smaller issues for now, but as she gains more information to support her fears, she'll eventually reach a point where she can't afford to let things slide any further. That point will mark the growth of her character.
Why does it feel like I'm reading the same arguement post after post after post...You are, actually. The differences seem to be more an issue of wording. :heh:
Anh_Minh
2008-07-27, 13:21
In most cases, there isn't any absolute right or wrong thing to do. But what matters is that you live in accordance with your own principles, and accept the responsibility for them. The problem here wasn't that Ranka did something "bad" so much as she allowed her principles to be violated.
Exactly what principle of hers has she violated? It's not like she's some kind of PETA fanatic who absolutely refuses violence against animals. I'm guessing she finds the martial tone given to "her" song to be unpleasant, but a principle violation?
Heck, I dare say there are situations where you're called upon to question your principles rather than holding on to them like an idiot. It's not like you can foresee everything at the moment you formulate them.
That last point sets up an important distinction. Someone who is independent wants to live by their own rules, and takes responsibility for them. Someone who is spoiled wants to live by their own rules, but doesn't want to have to take responsibility for them.
That's what makes this situation so difficult. It's so much easier to simply comply and pass the responsibility on to someone else than it is to stand your ground and live by that choice.
The decisions that Ranka faces aren't a simple matter of rational choice. They concern her feelings, as well.
She can't really help her feelings. But she can decide they take a backseat to her rational thinking.
If Ranka truly believes in Grace's ideas, then she should have no qualms about doing what she's doing. But she doesn't, and part of developing her individuality will be in establishing for herself what she thinks is the appropriate action.
Believing in someone or something isn't a binary affair. Most people go through life with various amounts of doubt about what they do. There are names for those who never experience doubts. Those aren't nice names.
But that's the trick. This time, there really isn't anyone whom she can talk to. She can't poll the audience or phone a friend. She's going to have to decide for herself, act on that decision, and live by it. That's what it means to become independent.
She could talk to her brother. To Alto. Heck, she could talk to Grace, or to Leon. Maybe nothing will come of it. But if she stays silent, then it's certain nothing will change.
Swampstorm
2008-07-27, 14:27
Exactly what principle of hers has she violated? It's not like she's some kind of PETA fanatic who absolutely refuses violence against animals. I'm guessing she finds the martial tone given to "her" song to be unpleasant, but a principle violation?On principle, Ranka felt that discarding Elmo like that after he helped her attain her initial success was wrong. But she allowed herself to be dragged into it, in spite of that.
With the Vajra, Ranka stopped singing when she saw the Vajra's blood splatter in front of her. She was also very upset at seeing the Vajra killed back in episode fourteen after connecting with them. So it's more than just the tone of the song that she disagrees with. Of course, this one is a trickier issue, because right now she lacks information. But as Ranka gains more information, she'll need to determine for herself what she really wants to do.
Heck, I dare say there are situations where you're called upon to question your principles rather than holding on to them like an idiot. It's not like you can foresee everything at the moment you formulate them.Of course. But that's what I meant by "taking responsibility". If Ranka agrees with Grace's principles, then she has to live with that decision. If she disagrees with those principles, then she has to live with that decision as well. Even if you decide to change your principles, you still have to abide by your new ones.
It's all too easy to comply with something that you don't believe in without changing your principles, though. It allows you to pass off responsibility to someone else. That's a dependent trait.
She can't really help her feelings. But she can decide they take a backseat to her rational thinking.Intellectualizing the problem may allow Ranka to temporarily evade her feelings on the matter, but those feelings will inevitably eventually worm their way back to the surface. The only way around this is for her to address her feelings directly and resolve them. At that point, she can decide on her course of action with certainty.
Believing in someone or something isn't a binary affair. Most people go through life with various amounts of doubt about what they do. There are names for those who never experience doubts. Those aren't nice names.Everyone experiences doubts. The differences lie in the extent to which people try to address those feelings, rather than sweeping them under the carpet.
People cause so many problems for themselves by simply neglecting to resolve their feelings. At the end of the day, everyone has to live with themselves.
She could talk to her brother. To Alto. Heck, she could talk to Grace, or to Leon. Maybe nothing will come of it. But if she stays silent, then it's certain nothing will change.Not quite. If she stays silent and does nothing, then nothing will change. Grace might say one thing, and Alto another. But at the end of the day, Ranka has to make up her own mind, and live by that decision. That's part of the process of becoming an adult.
Anh_Minh
2008-07-27, 14:54
On principle, Ranka felt that discarding Elmo like that after he helped her attain her initial success was wrong. But she allowed herself to be dragged into it, in spite of that.
Ditching him for a frivolous reason would assuredly have been wrong. She's ditching him because her government needs her to save lives. So, while it costs her, it doesn't mean she's violating her principles. Unless she's painted herself into a corner with absurdly rigid principles that - understandably enough - hadn't foreseen the whole "You can pacify Vajra" situation.
With the Vajra, Ranka stopped singing when she saw the Vajra's blood splatter in front of her. She was also very upset at seeing the Vajra killed back in episode fourteen after connecting with them. So it's more than just the tone of the song that she disagrees with. Of course, this one is a trickier issue, because right now she lacks information. But as Ranka gains more information, she'll need to determine for herself what she really wants to do.
Some people faint at the sight of blood. It doesn't mean they have moral objections to surgery.
Of course. But that's what I meant by "taking responsibility". If Ranka agrees with Grace's principles, then she has to live with that decision. If she disagrees with those principles, then she has to live with that decision as well. Even if you decide to change your principles, you still have to abide by your new ones.
It's all too easy to comply with something that you don't believe in without changing your principles, though. It allows you to pass off responsibility to someone else. That's a dependent trait.
I'm not sure what you expect of her. She'd have to live with herself whatever she decides, even if it's "I'll trust Grace and Leon's judgment more than my own".
Intellectualizing the problem may allow Ranka to temporarily evade her feelings on the matter, but those feelings will inevitably eventually worm their way back to the surface. The only way around this is for her to address her feelings directly and resolve them. At that point, she can decide on her course of action with certainty.
Everyone experiences doubts. The differences lie in the extent to which people try to address those feelings, rather than sweeping them under the carpet.
People cause so many problems for themselves by simply neglecting to resolve their feelings. At the end of the day, everyone has to live with themselves.
Not quite. If she stays silent and does nothing, then nothing will change. Grace might say one thing, and Alto another. But at the end of the day, Ranka has to make up her own mind, and live by that decision. That's part of the process of becoming an adult.
To act purely on her feelings, without input by those who are affected by her decisions, wouldn't be being an adult, it'd be irresponsible. She clearly needs more data before arriving at a definitive decision, so sooner or later she'll have to confront the authorities with her feelings, so they can help gather that data and so everyone can be more informed. Or maybe she won't, and she'll have to live with the fact she may have missed an opportunity.
I'm sorry what does any of this have to do with romance? Take it to the Ranka Lee discussion guys. This is where all your textwalling belongs. Shoo.
In any case... Barera is a scary guy. If you haven't figured out where I'm going with this by saying that, let's just say that the Love-Fight between Sheryl and Ranka, is nothing in comparison to what would happen to Alto.
I'm sorry what does any of this have to do with romance? Take it to the Ranka Lee discussion guys. This is where all your textwalling belongs. Shoo.
In any case... Barera is a scary guy. If you haven't figured out where I'm going with this by saying that, let's just say that the Love-Fight between Sheryl and Ranka, is nothing in comparison to what would happen to Alto.
it has everything to do with romance. The discussion of Ranka's characters can ultimately lead to a spoiler of whether or not it will be SherylxAlto. I feel if it's gonna be RankaxAlto I shouldn't waste my time on this anime cuz it'll deal with pedophilism.
it has everything to do with romance. The discussion of Ranka's characters can ultimately lead to a spoiler of whether or not it will be SherylxAlto. I feel if it's gonna be RankaxAlto I shouldn't waste my time on this anime cuz it'll deal with pedophilism.
Hmm... Ranka is fifteen or sixteen years old and Alto is seventeen years old. I don't see the pedophilism.
Hmm... Ranka is fifteen or sixteen years old and Alto is seventeen years old. I don't see the pedophilism.
Ok, I'd call it pedophilism because like I've said in the past Ranka looks like she's 10. That's like MichaelxKlan. Klan is really around Michael's age but no he can't do her. Just like it would be considered pedophilism if Alto did Ranka
Hmm... Ranka is fifteen or sixteen years old and Alto is seventeen years old. I don't see the pedophilism.
Eh, even if you say that she still looks far too young. If she had the appearance of a grown woman like Sheryl, it'd be easier to like her.
Plus I'm not afraid to say as many times as needed that her hairstyle is the single biggest disaster in anime history.
It could fly away if it wanted to. Ranka is the answer to Alto's dream of flying endlessly. All he has to do is take her hair, put it on his head, and fly away in the big blue yonder...
lone_wolf
2008-07-27, 16:26
Eh, even if you say that she still looks far too young. If she had the appearance of a grown woman like Sheryl, it'd be easier to like her.
Plus I'm not afraid to say as many times as needed that her hairstyle is the single biggest disaster in anime history.
It could fly away if it wanted to. Ranka is the answer to Alto's dream of flying endlessly. All he has to do is take her hair, put it on his head, and fly away in the big blue yonder...
LOL, that would be a hilarious Azumanga Daioh reenactment of Osaka placing Chiyo-chan's pigtails on her own head. :heh:
--Lone Wolf
一匹狼
Besides, 16 in the world of Macross is still not the age of consent. Thus legally, that makes her a child
- Tak
Tsuchiro
2008-07-27, 16:28
LOL, that would be a hilarious Azumanga Daioh reenactment of Osaka placing Chiyo-chan's pigtails on her own head. :heh:
--Lone Wolf
一匹狼
Her pigtails were awesome !!!
I'm sorry what does any of this have to do with romance? Take it to the Ranka Lee discussion guys. This is where all your textwalling belongs. Shoo.
In any case... Barera is a scary guy. If you haven't figured out where I'm going with this by saying that, let's just say that the Love-Fight between Sheryl and Ranka, is nothing in comparison to what would happen to Alto.
Well the original discussion was about Michael shipping for Ranka and the character growth Ranka needs in the future to grow into a young adult. The discussion then went on to debate the finer points of Ranka's character growth such as right vs. wrong, principles, taking responsibility, and morality. They're still somewhat on track, it's just that you jumped into the discussion midway.
magnuskn
2008-07-27, 16:34
Plus I'm not afraid to say as many times as needed that her hairstyle is the single biggest disaster in anime history.
I dispute that. This is far worse:
http://dvdmedia.ign.com/dvd/image/article/865/865018/solty-rei-vol-6-20080407031633255_640w.jpg
Well the original discussion was about Michael shipping for Ranka and the character growth Ranka needs in the future to grow into a young adult. The discussion then went on to debate the finer points of Ranka's character growth such as right vs. wrong, principles, taking responsibility, and morality. They're still somewhat on track, it's just that you jumped into the discussion midway.
No, I still stand by my declaration that the discussion was more Ranka Lee Discussion friendly.
Even if you attach it to romance, several textwalls of discussion over Ranka's personality doesn't exactly belong here. <_< Romance discussion is a place for funny one-liners and short speeches about how one woman is genetically superior to the other and how she's FINE.
I dispute that. This is far worse:
http://dvdmedia.ign.com/dvd/image/article/865/865018/solty-rei-vol-6-20080407031633255_640w.jpg
LOL!!! IS THAT RANKA?! xD!!! That woman looks JUST LIKE HER!!! Except with long hair!
Wesley84
2008-07-27, 16:44
I dispute that. This is far worse:
http://dvdmedia.ign.com/dvd/image/article/865/865018/solty-rei-vol-6-20080407031633255_640w.jpg
Solty! Might have been a fairly blatant rip-off of Saber Marionette towards the end, but she was still a good character.
Anh_Minh
2008-07-27, 16:52
Besides, 16 in the world of Macross is still not the age of consent. Thus legally, that makes her a child
- Tak
It's not the age of majority. Age of consent? Did we hear anything about it?
Swampstorm
2008-07-27, 18:23
Ditching him for a frivolous reason would assuredly have been wrong. She's ditching him because her government needs her to save lives. So, while it costs her, it doesn't mean she's violating her principles. Unless she's painted herself into a corner with absurdly rigid principles that - understandably enough - hadn't foreseen the whole "You can pacify Vajra" situation.Those are your principles, not hers.
The government can tell her that ditching Elmo was a "necessary action", but it's up to Ranka to decide for herself whether she really agrees with that stance.
Some people faint at the sight of blood. It doesn't mean they have moral objections to surgery.That doesn't address the issue from episode fourteen at all. Given what we saw in that episode, it seems that Ranka's reaction was more than a simple revulsion to the sight of blood.
I'm not sure what you expect of her. She'd have to live with herself whatever she decides, even if it's "I'll trust Grace and Leon's judgment more than my own".That's what Ranka's been doing her entire life: relying on the judgements of others. She could very well continue to do so, in theory. But given the structure of this story, I fully expect her to develop her own individuality and learn to trust in her own judgement. It's part of growing up.
To act purely on her feelings, without input by those who are affected by her decisions, wouldn't be being an adult, it'd be irresponsible. She clearly needs more data before arriving at a definitive decision, so sooner or later she'll have to confront the authorities with her feelings, so they can help gather that data and so everyone can be more informed. Or maybe she won't, and she'll have to live with the fact she may have missed an opportunity.As I pointed out earlier, there's nothing that she can do about this Vajra issue at the moment, without more information. But there are little things around her, such as the incident with Elmo and the incident between Brera and Alto, which suggest that her inputs on the project are being slowly overridden. If Ranka fully condones this, then it's perfectly fine. But if she doesn't, then she's bound come out of this with regrets, if she doesn't address those concerns as they come up.
Wesley84
2008-07-27, 18:25
It's not the age of majority. Age of consent? Did we hear anything about it?
I'd imagine it'd be a low age, since culturally proliferation would be a goal due to the near extinction of the human race. On the other hand, they live in space where they're sometimes strapped for resources, but since they allow Zentradi to move about in their giant-forms...
Well, Miria and Max were married when she was sixteen. Good enough for them, good enough for Ranka.
Just take it from Basara.
He does what he wants, he sings when and how he wants. He doesn't care what the military wants or whatever anyone wants to do with his singing. That's the strength of his conviction on his dream of making the galaxy hear his song.
No need for excuses. You don't believe me? Take it again from Basara, you just don't understand. ;)
Besides, perhaps the character development will move that way.
magnuskn
2008-07-28, 00:40
LOL!!! IS THAT RANKA?! xD!!! That woman looks JUST LIKE HER!!! Except with long hair!
Solty, from Solty Rei.
magnuskn
2008-07-28, 00:54
It's not the age of majority. Age of consent? Did we hear anything about it?
Miria tried to marry off Mylene at the tender age of fourteen, so that should say something about the general age of consent. As they still need to repopulate after the destruction of about 99,9% of humanity, itīs understandable. Not easy on the girls, though...
*edit* Ack, didnīt realize that I was posting in the same thread... sorry about the double post. :(
Miria tried to marry off Mylene at the tender age of fourteen, so that should say something about the general age of consent. As they still need to repopulate after the destruction of about 99,9% of humanity, itīs understandable. Not easy on the girls, though...
*edit* Ack, didnīt realize that I was posting in the same thread... sorry about the double post. :(
Loved that in the encore :heh: Miria trying to marry of Mylene before she "dies" of the common cold :D And then "dealing" with Gamlin by setting him up with a bridge bunny.
To bad max did't tell her she just had a cold while she was doing the singing ^^
I dispute that. This is far worse:
http://dvdmedia.ign.com/dvd/image/article/865/865018/solty-rei-vol-6-20080407031633255_640w.jpg
You dare say my lovely Solty-chan is worse than that dog ear? Die, you must die.
Old guy X loli ftw.
Sorry, Rose. I like you but your father looks cuter with Solty-chan and I know you don't have father complex, do you?
I'll second you on that. That might be Ranka's biggest sin, not telling anyone that she was able to communicate with the Vajara.
Singing a duet with Sheryl to try and win Alto over > telling people about being able to communicate with the varja
Anh_Minh
2008-07-28, 03:32
Those are your principles, not hers.
The government can tell her that ditching Elmo was a "necessary action", but it's up to Ranka to decide for herself whether she really agrees with that stance.
And has she done more than express a vague doubt? That was, furthermore, tied with her doubts about her own worth? If she's all Leon and Grace claim she is, she should help. Having Elmo around would be nice, but that's not the priority. If she's not, she should have stayed with Elmo. That's how I interpreted it.
You're the one claiming she's violated her own principles. A pretty big claim. How about bringing some evident to the table?
That doesn't address the issue from episode fourteen at all. Given what we saw in that episode, it seems that Ranka's reaction was more than a simple revulsion to the sight of blood.
Isn't it? I think she doesn't like violence. She also has her doubts about the Vajra's status as simple monsters. But that's all they are. Doubts. Not something that necessarily justifies not doing all she can to protect her friends and family.
That's what Ranka's been doing her entire life: relying on the judgements of others. She could very well continue to do so, in theory. But given the structure of this story, I fully expect her to develop her own individuality and learn to trust in her own judgement. It's part of growing up.
We all rely on the judgment of others. Vaccination? Unless you're a doctor, and maybe even then, you're relying on the judgment of others. Crossing a bridge? You're relying on the judgment of engineers, safety inspectors, and so on. Military discipline? Restaurants?
As I pointed out earlier, there's nothing that she can do about this Vajra issue at the moment, without more information.
And as I said... She could talk about it. It wouldn't be nothing.
But there are little things around her, such as the incident with Elmo
She's actually more powerless with regards to Elmo than she is with the Vajra.
and the incident between Brera and Alto,
What, you want her to play peacemaker between them? I'm not sure either would be receptive. Though it'd be nice if she tried all the same.
which suggest that her inputs on the project are being slowly overridden.
She's a crucial element. But they didn't hire her as a decision maker.
magnuskn
2008-07-28, 03:42
You dare say my lovely Solty-chan is worse than that dog ear? Die, you must die.
Old guy X loli ftw.
Sorry, Rose. I like you but your father looks cuter with Solty-chan and I know you don't have father complex, do you?
Well, Solty sure got the worst case of ear-hair Iīve ever seen in Anime. Almost as bad as this guy: http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/dan/guiness/ear_hair.jpg
:D
Guys, there's a chance that there might be no romance in Macross at all. I believe that option is better than losing Alto to Ranka.
@Prov1 wth why'd you post before me man? :p
So I accidentally stumbled upon this blog: Random Curiosity, and some of the peeps were mentioning about some magazine interview. Some of you guys were also arguing there, hehehe.
First off, I'm a newb at anime romance since I rarely watch anime with the exception to Ah My Goddess, Naruto (I don't watch Shipuuden), and DBZ (I was a kid back then, Gohan ftw). The original Macross was something I watched when I was a kid so I liked it.
Anyway, can anyone enlighten me on:
Hiroyuki Yoshino forced him to put more screen time for a character, Sheryl, who wasnt supposed to
Go Kawamori take your revenge
It seems the people there have some source that its going to be RankaxAlto based on some interview. :( How accurate is that interpretation? In terms of possibility?
If I can recall from past searches there was a contest for a singer/voice actor for Ranka who was supposed to be the heroine for the MF series. Was there an indication that this heroine will end with the male lead?
Macross has some clearly different and dynamic endings. In general: the MisaxHikaruxMinmei equation was that one gets to sing/fame in lieu of the man. This ending is logical because of the difficulty for an officer and singer to be together. In the MylenexBasaraxGamlin equation, lol, was not really resolved, besides Mylene was just fifteen at that time. In IsamuxForgothernamexGuld someone had to die off, but even at that point in time there was no clear resolution. In SaraxShinxMao, the matter was clearly resolved though the pair being together was a huge question mark.
I'd like to ask though, is there a precedent formula on how anime triangles such as this are resolved? I'm not asking for a full proof accurate formula but one that substantially works. I've read some of the discussions here and they are quite interesting especially on the super move mentioned by Westlo.
For some unexplainable reason, the triangle - especially Sheryl getting a beating makes me feel bad for her. I think if it were not for that concert on the first few episodes - I'd probably won't be watching the series. There's some weird exciting vibes I get from Sheryl. :D Strong woman, hopes and dreams.
I don't feel for Ranka or even get that feeling to empathize with her. I think my experience in my former work, law school, and pragmatism has drained me of empathy for people like her. I understand though that it is intentional to develop her and the plot. To see someone rise and all the jazz that comes with it.
I guess, one of the things that got me hooked to Sheryl is her restraint aside from other awesome things, and even though its too early (ep. 16/28?) to conclude, I hope she keeps at it. She isn't naive, she' cunning as someone has commented. The interesting thing though is she hasn't used her cunning (though in some cultures cunning has a negative connotation, maybe I shouldn't use the word) negatively against others, even though there is a slight hint of either insecurity or jealousy. I find that very appealing, to have power, and then control. Power corrupts ya know, and absolute power corrupts absolutely, hehehe.
Abraham Lincoln once said, how do you test a man's character? You give him power.
And maybe Sheryl is a phoenix? Man, my favorite mythological creature. How will she cope with everything? Some peeps speculate that she is slowly being cast aside, especially on the romance, in preparation for RankaxAlto.
I'm probably over analyzing but I can't wait for the next episode and its killing me. :frustrated: Been a long time since I've become gaga over anime. (yeah I'm looking at you original macross, lol)
Btw, SherylxAlto for me. :D I'll keep the faith, she gives hopes and dreams.
I just had to write about Sheryl. :)
@Prov1 wth why'd you post before me man? :p
So I accidentally stumbled upon this blog: Random Curiosity, and some of the peeps were mentioning about some magazine interview. Some of you guys were also arguing there, hehehe.
Anyway, can anyone enlighten me on:
Hiroyuki Yoshino forced him to put more screen time for a character, Sheryl, who wasnt supposed to
Go Kawamori take your revenge
It seems the people there have some source that its going to be RankaxAlto based on some interview. :( How accurate is that interpretation? In terms of possibility?
If I can recall from past searches there was a contest for a singer/voice actor for Ranka who was supposed to be the heroine for the MF series. Was there an indication that this heroine will end with the male lead?
As usual, some fans will take any bit of info and try to twist it to fit their shipping tendencies. Kawamori's original premise was to have 2 guys going for the same girl, but Yoshino Hiroyuki thought it wouldn't be very interesting or attractive to have this type of triangle so he was able to get it changed to two girls and one guy. Sheryl was originally an singer that Ranka admired. One thing to remember is that this was part of the very early story memos that Kawamori wrote.
As usual, some fans will take any bit of info and try to twist it to fit their shipping tendencies. Kawamori's original premise was to have 2 guys going for the same girl, but Yoshino Hiroyuki thought it wouldn't be very interesting or attractive to have this type of triangle so he was able to get it changed to two girls and one guy. Sheryl was originally an singer that Ranka admired. One thing to remember is that this was part of the very early story memos that Kawamori wrote.
No kidding. It's a mixture of shipping fanaticism + ignorance of concept development practices that spin this little blurb of information into an "I WIN" declaration. It makes me cringe when some people try to use this in their shipping wars cause they make themselves look desperate and ignorant.
Hey guys Misa Hayase was the captain of Macross and Hikaru and Minmei got together and the Valkyries had no gerwalk mode. Kira died in Gundam SEED and Fllay survived and became the pilot for Strike Rogue while Dearka stayed with ZAFT. In Ichigo 100% it ended when they got to high school and Aya hooked up with Junpei. In FFVII Aeris/Aerith didn't die and they left the triangle unresolved! Because we all know original intentions are canon and {Chris Jericho}NEEEVEEERRR EVVVEEEEEER {/Chris Jericho} change.
It's kinda annoying and yet hilarious that some people read that interview and thought they shifted around the characters for Sheryl and Brera a little bit and everything else is the same. (If that was the case do you honestly think they would be stupid enough to reveal this with half the show left?) In that version Ranka and Alto would've been developed completely different with different personalities. Like ickem said it was based on the original draft and who knows how many rewrites and changes it went through since than.
I've read some of the discussions here and they are quite interesting especially on the super move mentioned by Westlo.
To be fair it was keyboard who coined the super move!
People get so hung up on pre-details and other snippets, showing just how desperate some are for the impossible.
- Tak
People get so hung up on pre-details and other snippets, showing just how desperate some are for the impossible.
- Tak
Ani_D thinks she's the Mwu la flaga of shipping! I make the impossible (argument) possible!! :heh:
Ani_D thinks she's the Mwu la flaga of shipping! I make the impossible (argument) possible!!:heh:
By turning your assumptions and imagined scenarios, and making them sound like a fact. Yes, you do.:rolleyes:
This reminds me of that official staff interview from FF7 calling Tifa as Cloud's 'Koibito' and then people started trying so hard to explain that Koibito doesn't really mean lover:heh:
I'd like to ask though, is there a precedent formula on how anime triangles such as this are resolved? I'm not asking for a full proof accurate formula but one that substantially works. I've read some of the discussions here and they are quite interesting especially on the super move mentioned by Westlo.
I don't even think there's one absolute formula to anime love triangles. The most accurate answer is "it depends." I mean, ever since I saw the Deculture version up to now, I've seen AltoxRanka's relationship as the most developed compared to AltoxSheryl. I'm not talking about the quality since that's subjective, but going by the story's focus. Just look at the story and the impressions. It's like they're leading us on. With only 9 episodes to go, That Sheryl Show is getting less and less likely to happen. The best that can happen to Sheryl is to sing a duet with Ranka in the end to save the universe. Become free.
Besides, it's a treat to know how much Kawamori favored Ranka pre-production and that his target audience proved to be teenagers. If you know Ranka is this loved by Kawamori, it's not illogical to think she'll have the one thing she wants the most by the end of the series. If it's still Alto--which I have a strong feeling it is--then she'll most likely get it. =) There is no way we'll get another generic Macross history repeat, so to those who are still predicting Ranka's fall due to Macross history, let it rest. As long as Ranka's heart is in the right place, I don't think the story will betray her.
Plus, I certainly hope Kawamori's not about to break the hearts of her fans that are rooting for Ranka. I know Ranka has a huge fanbase in Japan with the Kira! phenomenon lol He better gives us a happy ending.
sekidousai
2008-07-29, 13:37
If AltoxRanka, i pity their offspring since ranka is quarter zentradi, quarter human, quarter mushi, quarter algae, quarter dachshund... Maybe Ranka will be whisked by the Vajra in the end to breed, so that leaves SheryxAlto ^^
Anh_Minh
2008-07-29, 14:27
And Alto's half-man, half-woman. You don't see anyone complaining about that, do you?
If AltoxRanka, i pity their offspring since ranka is quarter zentradi, quarter human, quarter mushi, quarter algae, quarter dachshund... Maybe Ranka will be whisked by the Vajra in the end to breed, so that leaves SheryxAlto ^^
Alto and Sheryl's kids could form Fire Bomber II since both of their parents would be pilots and performers;). Plus they would be so hot that they'd deculture everyone!
sekidousai
2008-07-29, 15:12
And Alto's half-man, half-woman. You don't see anyone complaining about that, do you?
Yes Alto is half man/woman but still he is 100% Miclone unlike Ranka, i'm surprised how she is getting through the medical check-ups ^^; . also i don't see anything wrong with Bobby :D. except that he wouldn't make a butiful fairy.
justinstrife
2008-07-29, 20:44
By turning your assumptions and imagined scenarios, and making them sound like a fact. Yes, you do.:rolleyes:
This reminds me of that official staff interview from FF7 calling Tifa as Cloud's 'Koibito' and then people started trying so hard to explain that Koibito doesn't really mean lover:heh:
I don't even think there's one absolute formula to anime love triangles. The most accurate answer is "it depends." I mean, ever since I saw the Deculture version up to now, I've seen AltoxRanka's relationship as the most developed compared to AltoxSheryl. I'm not talking about the quality since that's subjective, but going by the story's focus. Just look at the story and the impressions. It's like they're leading us on. With only 9 episodes to go, That Sheryl Show is getting less and less likely to happen. The best that can happen to Sheryl is to sing a duet with Ranka in the end to save the universe. Become free.
Besides, it's a treat to know how much Kawamori favored Ranka pre-production and that his target audience proved to be teenagers. If you know Ranka is this loved by Kawamori, it's not illogical to think she'll have the one thing she wants the most by the end of the series. If it's still Alto--which I have a strong feeling it is--then she'll most likely get it. =) There is no way we'll get another generic Macross history repeat, so to those who are still predicting Ranka's fall due to Macross history, let it rest. As long as Ranka's heart is in the right place, I don't think the story will betray her.
Plus, I certainly hope Kawamori's not about to break the hearts of her fans that are rooting for Ranka. I know Ranka has a huge fanbase in Japan with the Kira! phenomenon lol He better gives us a happy ending.
On that note, Sheryl has an even greater fanbase around the world than Ranka. Maybe Kawamori doesn't want to start WW3. :heh:
As for twisting facts around, since we all seem to be doing it to support our side, what do you have to say about the new ending? Considering it's entirely Sheryl based, with even a shot of her and Alto kissing, doesn't that show a sign it could very well go Alto x Sheryl? Hmm? :rolleyes:
"I've seen AltoxRanka's relationship as the most developed compared to AltoxSheryl"
Right, and she obviously doesn't find this claim to be... subjective?
Yeah, and if Kawamori is catering a happy ending to the majority of fans, then sorry, Sheryl is overwhelming in that front.
Not to mention what ani_d's claim on Kawamori aiming this current franchise at teens is misleading.
The fans all over the BBS sites are very familiar with previous Macross franchise. Some can recite even the smallest of details. Although personally I find that to be frightening.
And at a time slot of 1am, I highly, highly doubt Kawamori is trying to focus on teens.
Come on now. Kawamori is not aiming this at fans. Thats Macorss 7.
- Tak
lone_wolf
2008-07-29, 21:03
"I've seen AltoxRanka's relationship as the most developed compared to AltoxSheryl"
Right, and she obviously doesn't find this claim to be... subjective?
Not to mention what ani_d's claim on Kawamori aiming this current franchise at teens is misleading.
The fans all over the BBS sites are very familiar with previous Macross franchise. And at a time slot of 1am, I highly, highly doubt Kawamori is trying to focus on teens.
Come on now.
- Tak
Very true regarding the time slot.
Usually when the time slots are that late, it's usually called the "Otaku Hour" and geared towards the viewers who just arrive off of the LAST of the running trains in Japan . Most of these viewers are salary men or people who are waiting for rush hour to pass.
(trust me....I was stuck in rush hour once and there were so many people, I felt myself being lifted off the ground LOL...my head ending up on someone's shoulder :heh:)
The Otaku hour was explained to me by by someone who worked for "International Distribution" of a particular Japanese licensor when I used to work in the Anime Industry.
Most of the teen shows are aired during prime time hours or earlier. While "Kodomo" shows are mostly aired in the mornings.
--Lone Wolf
一匹狼
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Otaku just stands for anime fanboys and fangirls? Or is there a specific age for them?:heh:
Not to mention what ani_d's claim on Kawamori aiming this current franchise at teens is misleading.
The fans all over the BBS sites are very familiar with previous Macross franchise. Some can recite even the smallest of details. Although personally I find that to be frightening.
And at a time slot of 1am, I highly, highly doubt Kawamori is trying to focus on teens.
3 things...
1. The main characters are in their teens.
2. 1 am is like 9 pm for teenagers lol
3. This Kawamori interview.
Regarding teenagers, he wanted them to feel a connection to Macross F by starting with a normal person (someone like them) and what it would be like to fight (like how wars are actually happening in the world). Frontier looks like a vinyl balloon house, and he feels like Japan lives in their own little greenhouse, and what would happen if some kind of culture shock happened.
For those teenagers who are watching the show and will be alive in 2059, he hopes they watch this show and asks to continue everyones support.
It's made to appeal for teenagers even if other age groups are so welcome to watch it. Especially old school Macross fans. That's where the homage scenes come in I think.
"I've seen AltoxRanka's relationship as the most developed compared to AltoxSheryl"
Right, and she obviously doesn't find this claim to be... subjective?
Because it's not.:)
On that note, Sheryl has an even greater fanbase around the world than Ranka. Maybe Kawamori doesn't want to start WW3.:heh:
Technically, the whole world has yet to know about Macross Frontier since the series isn't licensed yet lol Besides, Ranka being really popular in 2ch is already something. It's thought to be the largest internet forum in the World and the largest BBS in Japan. I don't think Kawamori's going to get lynched if he deprives Sheryl of the Alto. Ranka is loved. Also, I wonder if Kawamori is even aware of us foreigners leeching off free Macross Frontier episodes from torrents.:p We sure have it easy.
I didn't think much of Sheryl's new ED theme since Ranka got the same treatment. I think Sheryl deserves something Sheryl-centric for a change, so Northern Cross is giving her justice. She seems to be talking in past tense though like "suki dattayo" (sp) or "I loved that." Sounds sad. =/
justinstrife
2008-07-29, 22:17
Technically, the whole world has yet to know about Macross Frontier since the series isn't licensed yet lol Besides, Ranka being really popular in 2ch is already something. It's thought to be the largest internet forum in the World and the largest BBS in Japan. I don't think Kawamori's going to get lynched if he deprives Sheryl of the Alto. Ranka is loved. Also, I wonder if Kawamori is even aware of us foreigners leeching off free Macross Frontier episodes from torrents.:p We sure have it easy.
I didn't think much of Sheryl's new ED theme since Ranka got the same treatment. I think Sheryl deserves something Sheryl-centric for a change, so Northern Cross is giving her justice. She seems to be talking in past tense though like "suki dattayo" (sp) or "I loved that." Sounds sad. =/
The whole world might not know of Macross Frontier, but AS is proof of people around the world who watch this show, and many other anime. In the places where people gather, to discuss anime, regardless of where they are from, the proof is out there for you to see. Whether you wish to acknowledge it or not, well that's up to you. However, your credibility comes into question if you dismiss Sheryl's popularity over Ranka outside of Japan. There are more people outside of Japan who watch anime, than all the people in Japan who watch it. Even though the anime is marketed to it's homebase, tens of millions of people worldwide also watch it through torrents, pirated DVD's, online streaming, etc, etc.
As for Ranka getting the same treatment as Sheryl in the ED theme, did Ranka have any scenes in the ED of her and Alto kissing? I don't remember seeing that in the actual ending credits.
lone_wolf
2008-07-29, 22:23
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Otaku just stands for anime fanboys and fangirls? Or is there a specific age for them?:heh:
Otaku hour is for the diehard adult otaku. There are leisurely viewers and then there are the over the top viewers who range from late teen to middle aged men.
And Otaku hour is mostly geared towards the male crowd. They show mostly Seinen shows.
Seinen - Target age (1830 men)
Shonen - Target age (Elementary school to Teens)
Kodomo - Target (Children)
Josei - Target (Ladies)
Shojo - Target (Gradeschool to Highschool females)
--Lone Wolf
一匹狼
I don't think Kawamori's going to get lynched if he deprives Sheryl of the Alto. Ranka is loved. Also, I wonder if Kawamori is even aware of us foreigners leeching off free Macross Frontier episodes from torrents.:p We sure have it easy.
You can bet Kawamori and company are very much aware of the level of interest coming from outside Japan. With no legal method to distribute in the international markets, they have to rely on exporting their stuff to make up for the loss of markets. It's been suspected that the larger than average export percentages have been a factor of the outstanding music sales and are expected to continue being a factor with the DVD sales.
lone_wolf
2008-07-29, 22:28
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Otaku just stands for anime fanboys and fangirls? Or is there a specific age for them?:heh:
Oh...one other thing I forgot to mention....Otaku is a term for "Fan" not "Anime Fan"
For example...I'm into motorcycles so therefore I am a "Baiku Otaku"
An originally "Otaku" comes from the term "Another person's family/home”"...it's sort of an honorific. If you are familiar with the Original Macross show, Minmei herself used the term "Otaku" as an honorific :heh:
--Lone Wolf
一匹狼
An originally "Otaku" comes from the term "Another person's family/home”"...it's sort of an honorific. If you are familiar with the Original Macross show, Minmei herself used the term "Otaku" as an honorific :heh:
Of course, it has something to do with a house because Otakus usually... well, just sit in their homes :p
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Otaku just stands for anime fanboys and fangirls? Or is there a specific age for them?:heh:
The Otaku hour is for die-hard fans of certain anime or a certain subject. In the case of anime, it focuses usually one of those long running franchises. Anyway, Lonewolf just answered it for you.
Because it's not.:)
AH CHUU!!!
*sneeze*
Whew, sorry, I am allergic to bullshit.
Technically, the whole world has yet to know about Macross Frontier since the series isn't licensed yet
Which part of the world? If you are talking about East Asia, they are already smothering Macross Frontier all over. It being licensed in the United States is only secondary to its popularity around its home base, meaning Japan and East Asia.
Then again, we torrent like hell. So yes, a lot of people know about this show already. They just didn't get them... legally.
- Tak
lone_wolf
2008-07-29, 22:36
Of course, it has something to do with a house because Otakus usually... well, just sit in their homes :p
LOL no kidding, and that's how NEET's are spawned too. :heh:
--Lone Wolf
一匹狼
lone_wolf
2008-07-29, 22:43
Technically, the whole world has yet to know about Macross Frontier since the series isn't licensed yet.
The internet is a powerful thing, my dear. There's a reason why it was originally coined "The Information Superhighway" back in the very early 90's.
As for the whole world not aware of Macross Frontier. There are fanbases in Europe (I know of one in Poland, Germany, France, etc)
Also as for Asia, Korea is heavy into MF as well as Singapore, China, etc. EDIT: Coworker from South Africa just saw this post...he wants me to mention that there's a fanbase as well over there LOL!
And for licensing...don't count on this series ever being licensed. The last thing that was licensed was Macross Plus. With the whole BIg West/Harmony Gold debacle, licencing this is but a dream...however this does not stop the world from knowing the existance of Macross Frontier.
--Lone Wolf
一匹狼
And for licensing...don't count on this series ever being licensed. The last thing that was licensed was Macross Plus. With the whole BIg West/Harmony Gold debacle, licencing this is but a dream...however this does not stop the world from knowing the existance of Macross Frontier.
I'm still holding out hope of someone deciding there's enough money to be made to take the risk. The biggest question mark, though, is going to be music licensing... sigh.
lone_wolf
2008-07-29, 23:21
I'm still holding out hope of someone deciding there's enough money to be made to take the risk. The biggest question mark, though, is going to be music licensing... sigh.
Most likely have to be a team effort....like from many domestic licensors. :heh:
Bandai Entertainment once tried...and failed many times. Damn Harmony Gold. And yes, it will take a whole lot of money. For standard series licensing can cost anywhere from 500,000 to well over 1,000,000. This usually involves the cost of the license, cost of art assets, Masters, packaging design and manufacturing, DVD authoring, replication, marketing/commercial cost and that's just the anime itself.
For the music, it would go through the original licensors and then on to the music label. What's the label they're going through? JVC, right? Good thing it's not Lantis or King Records:heh:
Maybe someone else will get lucky though.
--Lone Wolf
一匹狼
Oh...one other thing I forgot to mention....Otaku is a term for "Fan" not "Anime Fan"
For example...I'm into motorcycles so therefore I am a "Baiku Otaku"
I learn something new everyday.:heh: Not like I'm hoping for this series to get licensed too soon like what happened with Serei no Moribito, but I'm just saying even more people will know about Macross Frontier if it ever gets licensed. The international fans will double or triple compare to the current. I'm no way dismissing that there are no Macross fans around different parts of the world because that's not true.
As for Ranka getting the same treatment as Sheryl in the ED theme, did Ranka have any scenes in the ED of her and Alto kissing? I don't remember seeing that in the actual ending credits.
The Saonome kiss in the ED is from Star Date. It's the one where she suddenly kissed him on the cheek. And yes, Ranka got the same treatment when it comes to her own Ranka-centric ED theme--if not better. Neko Nikki was 11's ED theme and purely Ranka-centric (with all the cookie baking for Alto etc.). The next thing you know, it was playing next episode as BGM for her and Alto's skygazing trip. They also had an ED theme together flying in the same sky with Ranka's rendition of "Do You Remember Love?" lol Kind of tells you something. I still think Ranka got the better end of the deal here. The Ranka and Alto moment never looked so right like it did before.
AH CHUU!!!
*sneeze*
Whew, sorry, I am allergic to bullshit.
Will Smith did it better. Maybe you should try proving that the story has developed AltoxSheryl more than AltoxRanka. It actually looks better than just thinking of clever ways to disagree.;)
Maybe you should try proving that the story has developed AltoxSheryl more than AltoxRanka. It actually looks better than just thinking of clever ways to disagree.;)
Perhaps you should first do what you preach?
I fail to see how claiming: "I've seen AltoxRanka's relationship as the most developed compared to AltoxSheryl" with supporting evidence given as because it isn't (subjective) is a convincing argument. But hey, if making a dumb statement is your way of convincing others, then I am sorry, for you will get an an equally dumb response.
- Tak (Takes two to play the game, cmon, bring it on)
Most likely have to be a team effort....like from many domestic licensors. :heh:
Not like there are that many left, these days :upset:
Bandai Entertainment once tried...and failed many times. Damn Harmony Gold. And yes, it will take a whole lot of money.
Tried for Frontier? Or Seven/Zero? Were they sent injunctions or was it just not worth the risk of incurring a lawsuit? Or did you sign an NDA there? :eyespin: Just curious. Anyway, no denying it's a costly proposition, but if it stands a chance to make solid DVD/BD sales worldwide or get on SciFi or Adult Swim in the US that would be huge. That's something I don't think anyone looking at it from a strictly business standpoint could say for 7, it was just too quirky.
For the music, it would go through the original licensors and then on to the music label. What's the label they're going through? JVC, right? Good thing it's not Lantis or King Records:heh:
It's JVC (FlyingDog?), although I can't say I know much about the Japanese music industry. mike_s_6 might have an idea on the rights to the music, being that it's pretty much Yoko Kanno's all around. American DVD (mostly non anime, though) industry, however, is pretty awful about replacing original music with generic dreck to avoid licensing fees and keep costs down.
Oh yah... LucaXNanase FTW.
lone_wolf
2008-07-30, 00:14
Not like there are that many left, these days :upset:
Tried for Frontier? Or Seven/Zero? Were they sent injunctions or was it just not worth the risk of incurring a lawsuit? Or did you sign an NDA there? :eyespin: Just curious. Anyway, no denying it's a costly proposition, but if it stands a chance to make solid DVD/BD sales worldwide or get on SciFi or Adult Swim in the US that would be huge. That's something I don't think anyone looking at it from a strictly business standpoint could say for 7, it was just too quirky.
Unfortunately Ken Iyadomi doesn't want to take the risk LOL...though the last thing that he's done was I think Macross II when he used to work at LA Hero with Robert Napton . :heh:...well, maybe someone else will be brave enough and have the financial backings to approach BigWest and Harmony Gold.
The industry is at a slump but I also believe in some miracles. So don't give up that hope.:)
--Lone Wolf
一匹狼
Anh_Minh
2008-07-30, 03:35
The whole world might not know of Macross Frontier, but AS is proof of people around the world who watch this show, and many other anime. In the places where people gather, to discuss anime, regardless of where they are from, the proof is out there for you to see. Whether you wish to acknowledge it or not, well that's up to you. However, your credibility comes into question if you dismiss Sheryl's popularity over Ranka outside of Japan. There are more people outside of Japan who watch anime, than all the people in Japan who watch it. Even though the anime is marketed to it's homebase, tens of millions of people worldwide also watch it through torrents, pirated DVD's, online streaming, etc, etc.
As for Ranka getting the same treatment as Sheryl in the ED theme, did Ranka have any scenes in the ED of her and Alto kissing? I don't remember seeing that in the actual ending credits.
Tens of millions? I'd be surprised if there's even one million.
Besides, since we're not paying customers, we don't count, do we?
mike_s_6
2008-07-30, 03:59
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Otaku just stands for anime fanboys and fangirls? Or is there a specific age for them?:heh:
3 things...
1. The main characters are in their teens.
2. 1 am is like 9 pm for teenagers lol
3. This Kawamori interview.
I'm just wondering why you brought up the fact that the characters are in their teens? So what? Does it mean that if the characters are teens, they shouldn't appeal to older audiences, and it wasn't written for mature audiences?
I just watched Baby Blue this week, about two high school students, and they both struck a string in me as one of the most mature animations I've watched in a while.
It's JVC (FlyingDog?), although I can't say I know much about the Japanese music industry. mike_s_6 might have an idea on the rights to the music, being that it's pretty much Yoko Kanno's all around.
Sorry, don't know much about licensing :P Can't the world get rid of these technicalities and just sell the stuff :P
But there's one thing I'd like to comment about, somewhere up there someone commented about the good sales figures attributed to foreign sales... sadly this is not the case. From what I heard, imports are not counted in the sales figures of Oricon. They only count those sales from real (as in real, tangible, big name) music stores in Japan. So yeah, I suppose the buying population of Macross F CDs in Japan is pretty big, but thing is... We don't know exactly how much are also sold abroad. All I know is that there are online Kanno communities in English, Chinese, and Korean, and they do buy. The Macross Staff should know the real figures.
@ Anh Minh - paying customers are also those who buy the CDs and DVDs and such. And they are those who have the money. While most kids can save up to buy this stuff, it's the older people who actually have the constant ability to buy it. Back to demographics again... how many of those who watch are kids, how many are adults, and how many of these people buy...
Thing is, I honestly don't want the audience to be a factor in an artist's works. It's somewhat selling out. What I want to see is an ending that the animation staff initially thought of, without considering the shipping, polls, and such over the net. This is a personal preference though.
I'm just wondering why you brought up the fact that the characters are in their teens? So what? Does it mean that if the characters are teens, they shouldn't appeal to older audiences, and it wasn't written for mature audiences?
I just watched Baby Blue this week, about two high school students, and they both struck a string in me as one of the most mature animations I've watched in a while.
Ha, she also fails to note the fact that most anime tend have protagonists in their teens! Even if they act and behave in a level of maturity beyond their age. Even in the die-hard serious Legend of the Galactic Heroes, the main protagonists begin the series in their late teens.
It just shows me that she'd do anything to defend her cause, however twisted that may be, even if it is devoid of reason.
Never mind that Kawamori interview only stated regarding teenagers, and nowhere suggesting this current franchise is aimed at teenagers.
And no, 1am is not 9pm for teenagers in Japan. Even if they do stay up late, those who do aren't watching TV.
In fact, you know what ani_d, instead of hijacking secondary sources all the time, and trying to convince us of their validity, I highly suggest for you to acquire primary sources, validate the information yourself before making your usual tirade. Maybe then, we can take you a little more seriously. At this rate, you will just be relegated into the status of a certain Whiner84.
- Tak
I'm focused man.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Otaku just stands for anime fanboys and fangirls? Or is there a specific age for them?:heh:
3 things...
1. The main characters are in their teens.
2. 1 am is like 9 pm for teenagers lol
3. This Kawamori interview.
It's made to appeal for teenagers even if other age groups are so welcome to watch it. Especially old school Macross fans. That's where the homage scenes come in I think.
You're horribly twisting things so that they suit your argument.
Orion the first delusional Ranka fan (you're #2 and Bleach is #3 ;) ) already embarrassed himself on these forums to the extent he hasn't posted in this forum since the Earring exchange in episode 6. He also argued that Frontier is made @ teenagers though he said it to prove that Ranka would win since 13-15 year olds wouldn't like someone as "old" as Sheryl. Conveniently ignoring that the two most popular female characters this decade are characters who act older than they are in Lacus Clyne and C.C (in her case older than she looks!).
Anyway about 2 weeks after this stunning argument (he also said that Ranka and Alto would happen because of one has long hair and the other short, genuis!) was fired at yours truly the tv demographics breakdown for Frontier came out.
HOME | KIDS | *TEEN | ***M1 | ***M2 | ***M3 | ***F1 | ***F2 | ***F3 | PROGRAM
--------------------------------------------------------------
*2.7% | **.*% | *0.3% | *4.2% | *2.5% | *0.2% | *1.0% | *1.2% | *0.2% | Macross FRONTIER (2008/04/12 Kantou)
HOME : Households (Setai)
KIDS : Boys & Girls aged 4-12 years
TEEN : Boys & Girls aged 13-19 years
***M1 : Men aged 20-34 years
***M2 : Men aged 35-49 years
***M3 : Men aged 50 years and over
***F1 : Women aged 20-34 years
***F2 : Women aged 35-49 years
***F3 : Women aged 50 years and over
Frontier also clearly aimed at old fans and an older crowd, why do you think yahoo japan did an article on anime for older people with Frontier being the centerpiece of it! You're also spinning that Kawamori interview segment.
Technically, the whole world has yet to know about Macross Frontier since the series isn't licensed yet lol Besides, Ranka being really popular in 2ch is already something. It's thought to be the largest internet forum in the World and the largest BBS in Japan. I don't think Kawamori's going to get lynched if he deprives Sheryl of the Alto. Ranka is loved. Also, I wonder if Kawamori is even aware of us foreigners leeching off free Macross Frontier episodes from torrents.:p We sure have it easy.
If Ranka's so loved on 2ch and in Japan why was Sheryl the talk of episode 12 on the Macross BSS when it was a Ranka episode? Why was their universal condemnation of Ranka's version of DC on 2ch? You realize people took one look at Ranka's character design from the first scan and knew she was aimed at the 2ch crowd? It's amazing that Sheyrl is dominating Ranka in a lot of polls in Japan considering how suited Ranka is to the loli/moe crowd.
Oh and since you're so "proud" of Ranka doing well in preliminaries (lol?) for Saimoe please remember that next time you take offense at someone calling her a moeblob, because these people who voted for her think she is ;)
I didn't think much of Sheryl's new ED theme since Ranka got the same treatment. I think Sheryl deserves something Sheryl-centric for a change, so Northern Cross is giving her justice. She seems to be talking in past tense though like "suki dattayo" (sp) or "I loved that." Sounds sad. =/
Ranka got the same treatment? You mean 1 ending based on a diary and another ending which is a homage to Macross for the Hikaru and the losing girl? Also I forgot to address this in the 16 thread but I thought it was cute you thought DYRL being used as an ending theme meant something considering the track records of the two girls in the series to use that song. Minmei being the loser and Mylene's triangle being unresolved.
Also yes of course the Star Date kiss is in the ED, if you couldn't tell by the way Sheryl's eyes wavered that was the start of it. Care to answer why their's two valkyries crossing paths at the start of the ED and paper plane though? You see unlike every other ED in the show this is the only one that can actually foreshadow something. DC had two character scenes, Aimo showed nothing, Aimo Remix same, Cat Diary was a diary and DYRL was a homage to the original Macross. No other ED has foreshadowing in it, while this is packed and will be playing for the rest of the series barring an episode or two.
And uh of course NC is in past tense... she's going to sing the song in the actual show herself... I suggest you take a look at the release date and match up the episode. Or do you think that they won't promote the single the same way they did the last two lol? Also one part isn't in past tense
"The words of love that couldn’t be saved were erased by the waves of time
So I want the answer once more"
or
"Washed away by the waves of time,
Words of love that could not be scooped up.
That’s why I wanted you to answer me again."
So lol if you think this song was done after the triangle was resolved, pry those shipping goggles off!
I wouldn't put much stock into the predictive abilities of the endings. As it is, I expect another 2 unique EDs before the series is over.
risingstar3110
2008-07-30, 10:55
Too early to predict ending: but will the First-Girl-Win or the Last-Girl-Win will be applied in Macross? Has Any1 already guessed using that?
I will place my bet for Sheryl if i have to; as I lost in True Tears not that long time ago for lacking knowledge. And as far as i remember, all anime/manga come of my mind followed "that" rule:
Such as Kimikiss, True Tears, Love Hina, MSN, "possible" SHny, the crappy ending of SR(manga), the unclear ending of Darker than Black, Hayate No Gottoku (original manga, not the crappy addapted anime -_-') even when i still hope for Hina, Aoi, To-love Ru and several others....
Stretch5920
2008-07-30, 10:59
It was confirmed a Sheryl end the moment Ranka called Alto oniichan in ep 2.
Sorry, don't know much about licensing :P Can't the world get rid of these technicalities and just sell the stuff :P
Figured I'd ask and drag you in since you're the resident expert. Thanks... and... agreed :(
Thing is, I honestly don't want the audience to be a factor in an artist's works. It's somewhat selling out. What I want to see is an ending that the animation staff initially thought of, without considering the shipping, polls, and such over the net. This is a personal preference though.
So, so true. It'll just end up with a shitty ending altogether, if they take too much into consideration and stray too far from their original vision (or visions, to be fair).
I wouldn't put much stock into the predictive abilities of the endings. As it is, I expect another 2 unique EDs before the series is over.
Well.... the last Ranka-centric ED was when Ranka was more or less out of contention at the end of episode 11... and then in 12 was her supermove.
Soooo... 16 could end up being the setup for Sheryl's supermove...
But then... if that were the case we would probably have at least 1 or 2 more momentum shifts.
The industry is at a slump but I also believe in some miracles. So don't give up that hope.:)
Not that that hope is going to keep me from buying the imported BDs... but I really do think Kawamori and crew are due...
It was confirmed a Sheryl end the moment Ranka called Alto oniichan in ep 2.
Plus the imouto head pat of doooom in episode 10. :heh:
http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/8720/macrossfrontier10seasluld8.png
Hold up, since when did I say Macross Frontier should not appeal to older audience?:heh: If it shouldn't, then why am I still watching this? Just because this is aimed at teens, doesn't mean it's not going to appeal to an older crowd--most especially the old school Macross fans. It seems like even Kawamori himself can't even convince the people here that he shaped the show specifically to appeal to teenagers. I'm twisting things again? lol!
Let me copy and paste. This is what Kawamori said. I repeat, Kawamori. Stated. This, not me. How I managed to 'spin' this Kawamori segment interview is beyond me. =/
Regarding teenagers, he wanted them to feel a connection to Macross F by starting with a normal person (someone like them) and what it would be like to fight (like how wars are actually happening in the world). Frontier looks like a vinyl balloon house, and he feels like Japan lives in their own little greenhouse, and what would happen if some kind of culture shock happened.
For those teenagers who are watching the show and will be alive in 2059, he hopes they watch this show and asks to continue everyone’s support.
If Kawamori--the creator of the almighty Macross--said that this was what he wanted to do when he made MF, I'm not about to pretend I didn't read this and accuse the 'quoter' of blasphemy haha If his aim to attract teenage viewers didn't really go as planned, then honestly, so what? The fact is, he made Macross Frontier thinking mostly of the teens that are going to remember this show in 2059. Like it or not, he is thinking of the teenagers, purposely made his characters teenagers, purposely gave them teenage qualites so that they can reach out to them. He's targeting teenagers. If people have a problem with it, take it to him please.:) I think every author who cares a lot about his younger audience is admirable.
Orion the first delusional Ranka fan (you're #2 and Bleach is #3 ) already embarrassed himself on these forums to the extent he hasn't posted in this forum since the Earring exchange in episode 6. He also argued that Frontier is made @ teenagers
If Orion can only see this interview of Kawamori. He/She has more right to laugh at you. ^_^
Also for the last time, stop basing your Sheryl ending on that Sheryl-centric ED theme. I could write an essay on how pointless this ED theme analysis is, but I wouldn't since it is utterly pointless. If you think Sheryl will go jam that rock song in front of Alto for her supermove or something, then whatever. If you ask me, she'll have more chances of snatching Alto's heart if she sings Diamond Crevasse to him.
If Ranka's so loved on 2ch and in Japan why was Sheryl the talk of episode 12 on the Macross BSS when it was a Ranka episode? Why was their universal condemnation of Ranka's version of DC on 2ch? You realize people took one look at Ranka's character design from the first scan and knew she was aimed at the 2ch crowd? It's amazing that Sheyrl is dominating Ranka in a lot of polls in Japan considering how suited Ranka is to the loli/moe crowd.
Oh and since you're so "proud" of Ranka doing well in preliminaries (lol?) for Saimoe please remember that next time you take offense at someone calling her a moeblob, because these people who voted for her think she is
Eh, if Sheryl was the one who made an impression in episode 12, then how the heck did this Kira! craze come about? I mean, we're almost in ep 17 now and people still can't get over Ranka's stunt in that Valkyrie lol! Blogs are writing about it. People are drawing fanarts about it. People are mimicking her. People can't get over it. Even Kawamori and Yoko Kanno are doing the \m/ pose in their picture haha Whatever you heard in Macross BBS is fine, but Ranka made a hurricane all over Japan when ep 12 aired and it continues till now. You got her love for Alto to thank for that and the staff for glorifying the scene. If I didn't hear about SaiMoe, I wouldn't even notice the gravity of her popularity since noone has been writing about it here. But what can you expect, this is Sheryl nation.:rolleyes:
And FYI, being moe is a good thing, but when you label Ranka as nothing but a moeblob, then you'll naturally have someone disagree with you. Know the difference.
Plus the imouto head pat of doooom in episode 10. :heh:
http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/8720/macrossfrontier10seasluld8.png
Aww...Lookit the affection in Alto's eyes. ^_^ Adorable lol Three seconds from here, he will find out he's about to kiss this little sister and will blush like crazy instead of feeling weirded out.;)
First you said.
It's made to appeal for teenagers even if other age groups are so welcome to watch it. Especially old school Macross fans. That's where the homage scenes come in I think.
Even though the interview clearly stated:
Regarding teenagers, he wanted them to feel a connection to Macross F by starting with a normal person (someone like them) and what it would be like to fight (like how wars are actually happening in the world). Frontier looks like a vinyl balloon house, and he feels like Japan lives in their own little greenhouse, and what would happen if some kind of culture shock happened.
For those teenagers who are watching the show and will be alive in 2059, he hopes they watch this show and asks to continue everyone’s support.
Let us first disregard the shipping war for a second and focus on this interview. First, this interview only assumes that some teenagers are going to watch the show, as the original interview itself made no mention it was exclusively aimed at teenagers. Second, the question posed to Kawamori was something along the lines of what do you think of the teens who will possibly be watching this show? Kawamori answered as best as he could to that question, but he himself made absolutely no mention whatsoever that Macross Frontier would focus on a teenage audience. Furthermore, it was clear from the beginning that Macross was going to pay much homage to the original. Yet, regardless of how it pays its homage, let us be a little logical for a second here, how many teens in Japan do you think would be able to recall the original Macross? Let alone understanding some of the deliberate homage in Macross Frontier?
Then you stated:
Like it or not, he is thinking of the teenagers, purposely made his characters teenagers, purposely gave them teenage qualites so that they can reach out to them.
This is easily evidence that you are twisting his interview for your own purpose.
Yes, on one hand, he is thinking of teenagers because there will be teens watching his show. But having teens watching the show is hardly equal to this show being focused on teens. Where did he say anything specifically about Macross Frontier being aimed at teenagers?
And he did not need to purposely create characters while bestowing them teenage qualities, its more like he just went with the natural flow of things.
At least two Macross series had teenagers playing the main role. While others had primary teenage supporting characters, such as Macross 7. Hikaru was only 16 in the original TV series. Mylene was 14. Shinn Kudo was 18, and like Alto, barely reached the age of consent according to the laws of the day. The sole exception to this is obviously Macross PLUS. Furthermore, it is more common to use teenagers in anime as primary characters than otherwise. Honestly, how many anime can you recall using adults as primary characters vs. how many anime using teens?
I think the facts are obvious. How you overlook those facts is beyond me.
- Tak
Have to agree with Tak, there is a difference between being aimed at teenagers and a show having some elements added that might appeal to teenagers. You have said over and over that the show is "aimed at teens" yet nowhere in the interview does it say that. You also seem to be taking the answer out of context and are not taking into account the actual question asked. To me it seems more like the show was geared towards a general audience with both adults (old Macross fans) and new fans/teens in mind.
As for the Sheryl ED, I don't think it means anything. I don't think any of the EDs mean anything. Whether it's the Sheryl one, Ranka one, Sheryl's earring one or anything else.
Kawamori answered as best as he could to that question, but he himself made absolutely no mention whatsoever that Macross Frontier would focus on a teenage audience.
Sorry, but I don't really see how the fact that Kawamori stating that "he wanted teenagers to connect to Macross Frontier" does not equate to him aiming the show to teenagers. =/
Kawamori wanted the show to appeal to teenagers, that is why he made the main characters "someone like them". He wanted them to feel what it's like for someone like them to be thrown in a battlefield. What is so hard to understand about this?:heh: He is clealry giving teenagers a higher priority. You know it's high priority when the author himself wanted the main character of his story to be a teenager so that he can relate to others just like him.
Furthermore, it was clear from the beginning that Macross was going to pay much homage to the original. Yet, regardless of how it pays its homage, let us be a little logical for a second here, how many teens in Japan do you think would be able to recall the original Macross? Let alone understanding some of the deliberate homage in Macross Frontier?
I'd rather not answer something so subjective since I'm pretty sure a lot of people are going to twist whatever opinion I state here.
Yes, on one hand, he is thinking of teenagers because there will be teens watching his show. But having teens watching the show is hardly equal to this show being focused on teens. Where did he say anything specifically about Macross Frontier being aimed at teenagers?
Right about when he said he wanted teenagers to relate to Macross Frontier? I didn't see him say he made the characters teenagers living teenage lives so that it can appeal to older audience. Kawamori just stated the reason why Alto and others are in their teenage years acting, living teenage lives. He is looking at the teenagers. Gosh. -_-
And he did not purposely create characters while bestowing them teenage qualities.
If you're going to want your MF characters to appeal to the teenage audience, naturally, you're going to give them teenage qualities, since again, he wants teenagers to relate to MF characters.
Honestly, how many anime can you recall using adults as primary characters vs. how many anime using teens?
I don't know since we're talking about Kawamori's interview stating that he wanted Macross Frontier to appeal to the teenagers. lol
Have to agree with Tak, there is a difference between being aimed at teenagers and a show having some elements added that might appeal to teenagers. You have said over and over that the show is "aimed at teens" yet nowhere in the interview does it say that. You also seem to be taking the answer out of context and are not taking into account the actual question asked. To me it seems more like the show was geared towards a general audience with both adults (old Macross fans) and new fans/teens in mind.
All right. For the record, just because Kawamori is putting higher priority on his teenage audience, doesn't mean it's devoid of things older audience find appealing. More than the older audience, Kawamori is targeting the younger generation more. That's my whole point. It's like his desire not to alienate the non-Macross fans by telling his staff not to go over board with the homages. He wants this younger generation to know Macross. Atleast that's what I got from his interview stating why he wants this to appeal to teenagers. And I think that's a very smart move. The best way to continue a legacy is through the youth, afterall.
Well, trying to capture new fans is always an aim for any franchise. That's nothing new. The series is meant to have a broad appeal to both old and new fans alike. To keep the old fans happy and bring in the new ones.
But, it seems to me you are saying "this show is aimed at teens, but just because it's aimed at teens doesn't mean older fans can't enjoy it/find it appealing too." That is something I disagree with. It's aimed at both.
edit: Hey, what is the point of this bickering about who the show is aimed at anyway? What does this have to do with romance? Even if it did happen to be aimed at teens doesn't mean that AltoxSheryl won't happen or that RankaxAlto is a definite thing. Even if it was an adult audience in mind, neither would be a definite thing. Either one is just as likely.
To me it seems more like the show was geared towards a general audience with both adults (old Macross fans) and new fans/teens in mind.
Very much so agreed... Frontier just runs the gamut with regard to it's content. And does an incredibly good job of it, IMO.
Hopefully it'll show with regard to DVD/BD sales, if it doesn't already if you factor in DVR, Nico, torrents, YouTube, music sales, etc.
Multi-generational FTW.
But, it seems to me you are saying "this show is aimed at teens, but just because it's aimed at teens doesn't mean older fans can't enjoy it/find it appealing too." That is something I disagree with. It's aimed at both.
It's funny how I never stated something like this, specifically stated that I never meant this, and everyone still says I mean this. x__x
*edit
But I DO mean it when I said I believe Kawamori puts a higher priority to teenagers more than the older ones.
It's funny how I never stated something like this, specifically stated that I never meant this, and everyone still says I mean this. x__x
Then can you enlighten us what you meant when you said
Hold up, since when did I say Macross Frontier should not appeal to older audience? If it shouldn't, then why am I still watching this? Just because this is aimed at teens, doesn't mean it's not going to appeal to an older crowd--most especially the old school Macross fans.
Because clearly, most of us took that as an indication of you believing this franchise is aimed at teens as opposed of it being aimed at a broader audience, which it is, never mind that it includes a larger, older fan base.
Now, first of all, as I stated before, it is very common for most anime to have teenage characters at the forefront. Macross Frontier itself is absolutely nothing new in this regard. The directors of Gundam SEED and DESTINY also said something similar to that effect, trying to have teens relate to the lives of the characters in the series, although Gundam is always aimed at a broader audience, rather than just teens.
When Kawamori said "in regards to teens", he was answering a question about his opinion on teenage audiences, not because Kawamori wanted to specifically express an opinion about teens. He wants teens to remember this show by 2059 and relate to the characters, so what? How do you equate that to Kawamori specifically creating this franchise for teenage audiences? You think Kawamori is the first to ever put teens in a mecha show or what?
- Tak
It's funny how I never stated something like this, specifically stated that I never meant this, and everyone still says I mean this. x__x
*edit
But I DO mean it when I said I believe Kawamori puts a higher priority to teenagers more than the older ones.
It's because you keep saying the show is aimed at teens. Then you said this:
Just because this is aimed at teens, doesn't mean it's not going to appeal to an older crowd--most especially the old school Macross fans.
Which gives the impression that you believe that the show is geared to teens, but perhaps is still appealing to older audiences. This is what everyone disagrees with you on. If that's not really what you mean, fine, but then don't say the show is aimed at teens....
Now you are saying that you believe he puts more priority on his new fans/teens. I still think I disagree with you on that one, but I'll leave it alone for now.
But again, what does this have to do with romance?
But again, what does this have to do with romance?
Because she was using it to support her Ranka shipping cause.
- Tak
Then can you enlighten us what you meant when you said
Because clearly, most of us took that as an indication of you believing this franchise is aimed at teens as opposed of it being aimed at a broader audience, which it is, never mind that it includes a larger, older fan base.
- Tak
Because it's true that Kawamori stated that he shaped his main characters bearing the teenagers in mind. More than older ones, he's aiming his fish net more on the teenagers, but I never once said this show focuses only on teenagers and not the older audience. Is that a little clearer now? -__- Which is why I made it clear at the end of my post that even if Kawamori is targeting his teenage audience more, I'm by no means dismissing that this show was not made for older audience as well.
Anyway, my brain is burnt out on this topic. -_- If people still disagree, then so be it. Continue back on the romance discussion lol
*edit
Because she was using it to support her Ranka shipping cause.
LoL how you came to a conclusion that I'm using this as an argument for RankaxAlto is a mystery.
Wesley84
2008-07-30, 16:36
Closest thing that comes to as an appeal to an older audience is the infamous "Ah, Leon..." scene.
Because she was using it to support her Ranka shipping cause.
- Tak
It seems like an irrelevant argument to me.
It seems like an irrelevant argument to me.
...nothing is irrelevant in a shipping war!!!
I need some advil after reading this thread, though. :eyespin:
LoL how you came to a conclusion that I'm using this as an argument for RankaxAlto is a mystery.
Oh, no mystery.
Besides, it's a treat to know how much Kawamori favored Ranka pre-production and that his target audience proved to be teenagers.
and
Plus, I certainly hope Kawamori's not about to break the hearts of her fans that are rooting for Ranka. I know Ranka has a huge fanbase in Japan with the Kira! phenomenon lol He better gives us a happy ending.
I rest my case.
- Tak
justinstrife
2008-07-30, 20:41
I'd like to see a list of anime with romance that ani_d has seen, then get her predictions while she started watching the show, and see how accurate she ended up being with them.
Based on her arguments, I don't think her predictions have faired well over the years... As for fitting towards older audiences, at 22, she doesn't fit that stage yet. :heh:
Most Macross fans are in their late 20's, 30's, 40's.
Based on her arguments, I don't think her predictions have faired well over the years... As for fitting towards older audiences, at 22, she doesn't fit that stage yet. :heh:
Most Macross fans are in their late 20's, 30's, 40's.
*Shrug* She insists that Macross Frontier is aimed at teenagers.
- Tak
justinstrife
2008-07-30, 20:49
Was she one of the ones in the True Tears section who thought Noe was going to win?
Was she one of the ones in the True Tears section who thought Noe was going to win?
You got me, never seen it.
- Tak
Tsuchiro
2008-07-30, 20:51
Was she one of the ones in the True Tears section who thought Noe was going to win?
uh huh......
daimonth
2008-07-30, 20:55
Actually a bunch of fan art are making fun of Ranka pose because its parody worthy material... much like the Spinzaku, Wasurenomono, Nice Boat etc.
Actually a bunch of fan art are making fun of Ranka pose because its parody worthy material... much like the Spinzaku, Wasurenomono, Nice Boat etc.
Speaking of parodies, I just can't get enough of this:
http://tak.rooms.cwal.net/8b821c0680b41e641b80d11ccdc31b34.gif
- Tak
rant
Sigh... ok, this seriously gets my vote for worst argument since I've been on suki. Who the hell cares if if teens are up late, if the Macross fanbase is older, if it's airing on the "Otaku hour," or what fucking age group Frontier is after.
It's not going to change the outcome of the love triangle, Kawamori is going to do what he damn well pleases (we should hope). And if he damn well pleases Alto is going to end up with Ranka, then he'll end up with Ranka. If Kawamori damn well pleases Alto and Sheryl to be together, then he'll end up with Sheryl.
There's as much there for the seinen crowd as there is for the shonen crowd as there is for the shojo crowd and so on. And if you're 17, or 47... deal with it.
/rant
Back to the subject of romance... Sheryl supermove this week anyone?
Too soon for a super move. I want something to happen though because all of this crap is so totally stupid to even argue about. They are both well liked. It's watched by people of all ages. Kawamori will do what is in the best interest of the story he's trying to tell. The end.
Can't wait until tomorrow. :D
Speaking of parodies, I just can't get enough of this:
http://tak.rooms.cwal.net/8b821c0680b41e641b80d11ccdc31b34.gif
- Tak
Saw that, it bloody rocks. Hahahaha....I had to rewatch that scene several times when I saw that episode.
The kira! thing is more of a meme/parody type thing invading the net, it hardly means the world is suddenly madly in love with Ranka. Both Ranka and Sheryl are well loved characters. Ranka doesn't deserve Alto any more then Sheryl deserves him. It's not about who deserves him or whose fans might be upset if that character doesn't win. I'd be disappointed in Kawamori if he decided to write a certain ending just to please fans. For all we know this triangle will be completely unresolved and some characters might end up dead.
Omg...people here are impossible. I'm just speechless. x__x To think I've become so infamous lol Just stepped out for a while and when I came back, people are suddenly saying I made a claim like this and that. Seriously, did people even read how the previous discussions come about? =/ It seems like some people here are soo desperate to criticize anyone who goes against their major beliefs. They'll read something and suddenly, it's the truth and has to be labeled a villain.:uhoh: Totally amazing.
Okay, just to shut people up about this "Kira!" craze. I don't know why people are still making excuses that the fad doesn't mean Ranka is popular or is loved, but whatever. Lots of blogs are talking about this new craze in Japan and yes, Ranka has made a splash in episode 12. If you want to pretend it's not true, then I honestly could care less.
http://infestor51.wordpress.com/2008/07/23/birth-of-a-meme-short-and-simple/
http://www.atalude.net/archives/2008/07/17/%ef%be%89ゝ∀%ef%bd%a5キラ☆/
http://anime-baka.blogspot.com/2008/07/vocaloid-weekly-42-taken-over-by-rankas.html
http://www.moeside.net/weblog/2008/07/21/the-power-of-moe/
http://www.japanator.com/elephant/post.phtml?pk=8355
http://www.wolfhurricane.com/2008/07/23/m-passing-fad-or-here-to-stay/
And how did my wish for Kawamori to give Ranka a happy ending became an absolute thing that I suddenly said Kawamori is 100% going to give her what she wants d/t her fame? When did I say that Sheryl fans don't matter? (What delusion:uhoh:) Where did I say that teenagers and Kawamori is a RankaxAlto argument? (Any idiot can see these are two different matters) And most of all, what does Macross Frontier have to do with me being a Noe supporter in True Tears? The thing was just taken so out of context no more words could describe how overboard ridiculous and outright stupid debating here is. I'm not even going to quote it word for word because it's just so....pointless and such a waste of energy. I don't wish to burn anymore braincells. X___X
Eidolon Sniper
2008-07-30, 22:25
@ ani_d
Welcome to the fandom wars. :heh: don't you worry, I have my own battles with that kind too. Best advice just ignore them. >.>;;
@ Tak
I wish I could have that as my sig. :eek: that's lol hilarious. Something straight out of King Of Fighters/ Street Fighter super move. :heh:
Also, about the teenager argument you're going with. Although totally irrelevant to this discussion, FF XII was supposed to have Basch or Balthier as its protagonist. But, since Squeenix was in a way reluctant to use that older themed protagonist to color an FF game, they then decided to use the Vaan and Penelo approach. The last FF that has any old main leads in it (past teenager age) was like the older FFs (correct me if I'm wrong though) and FF VII, from FF VIII onwards it's become more of a craze to fit young people to star in their games, and seem to get younger and younger as it gets (other Squeenix games like Kingdom Hearts 1 and 2 for example). Granted that there are people older who would want to play those games, there's still the presence of the teenage marketing group, which still accounts for a huge percentage of their profits. Kids would want their parents to buy videogames for them. If the products don't appeal to the kids that much, then they stand to lose a great deal of the profits that their products will rake in.
Anime is meant to be watched by people of all ages, it is wrong to even imply that anime is just meant for kids. But we have different genres of anime catering to a whole range of fans, and whether some people like it or not, there are anime aimed for adults. My parents have a rather narrow view of anime as just being for kids, and because of this misunderstanding, they don't try sitting out the next 30 minutes or so while I watch Macross Frontier streaming from the internets. :heh: anyway, since a lot of fans these days are weaned on the latest bits of animation, circa 2000 onwards, it is safe to say that people who did watch it just now (or are exposed to anime just now) would tend to crave for a lot of shiny new anime stuff. There are others who don't see it that way, and they have their own tastes that also render themselves "game" on older animation and older anime, like some people on this forums are. There are some examples I've seen on /m/ who had Gundam Wing as their first Gundam shows, but they went on to rediscover old Gundam gems. But there are also others who don't (and get lambasted a lot for doing so). Same with the Macross threads in that imageboard, there are those who are real fans of the series, some new fans who want to get into the show, and the anons are very happy to help them out with a lot of their questions. Macross Frontier threads in there sadly only erupt into full Sheryl Ranka war threads most of the time, but sometimes when the anons aren't on a warpath, they give lots of comments on what they like and don't like about Frontier, complete with older Macross anime comparisons. This helps new fans to try out the series for themselves. And sometimes they don't also, because of the comments that they get weren't exactly that appealing. :heh:
As far as Macross Frontier goes, anyone could actually watch it if they want to, depending on their schedules (because of the time slot) and depending on the interest of the people who would of course watch it. As for the audience it's geared towards to, there really aren't a lot of anime nowadays that have comparably older cast members. Teenage cast members on an anime are there for a reason - to get younger people to watch it. Would you watch an anime about 30 year old leads? Probably only a few people would watch it. Macross Frontier is filled with characters with whom normal teenagers can relate to, because the characters themselves have some problems and issues that the younger audience could relate with, and that is what made them watch it. It could be the only reason why they watch it, but because we've agreed on the variety of anime fans, there are other reasons why they could also watch it. Whatever the reason, anime is there to make itself endearing to the general anime fandom. This is not to say that Macross Frontier is geared towards this age set, or that. But it has to sell to the younger fans, therefore Sheryl Nome and Ranka Lee and all the other pretty characters are in there, but other than that, we all know what makes them great right? Therefore we have cosplays, promotional anime merchandise, the works. Fans of the Macross series love Sheryl and Ranka equally, but you can't deny the Kira meme has sprung a lot of fanart with people doing the Kira pose. :heh: I've even seen a Shishio Makoto one. O.o;; And I think even saw a Ryoma Nagare one as well. X___x;; (that was scary!) In any case, Ranka is popular, and when a character is popular, the character would have a lot of critics and fans as they always do, you cannot deny that. It is just so because Sheryl has a lot more fans than Ranka has - those who count themselves more of a Sheryl fan than Ranka one at that - that sometimes the shipping wars tend to come out very ridiculous to the point that the discussion now only focuses on what would the outcome of their relationship would be, just that. Macross has its Love Triangles, but I don't think SDF Macross just dwelt on that Love Triangle alone. It sprung a genre that Macross fans have loved, and not just because of that single Love Triangle relationship.
Ranka's been called out for being a moeblob and because she's timid, etc. - the reasons that the more extreme Sheryl fans have for disliking her very much are bordering on just pure dislike of her, with no reason at all for some. Sheryl has her own share of critics as well. The fact remains is that whether we like it or not, anime is there to always appeal to the younger sector of the market, and they have to sell themselves pretty well. Of course, the anime that is all about the mainstream of anime fandom,not the more art style anime, or those anime geared towards older audiences (anime that are meant for adults only). Ranka is popular with the blog crowd because she's cute, and she could hold her own against Sheryl because of her other endearing characteristics and that she's also strong in her own way. Sheryl is liked by people because they want strong female characters, and Sheryl happens to fit the bill just fine, and they also find Sheryl cute too. What a person would want to watch in anime is of course, up to his or her own decision. Also, sometimes it's not because of an anime a person watched that a person thinks differently in some way - they also get real life experiences and base them from what they know there as well. If a person only sees what she sees because of what she watched or what she experienced, then we can't do anything about that can we. If ani_d sees Ranka and Alto the way they are, there's no reason to raise pitchforks at why she does think so, or this even applies to you or herbert or other Sheryl fans in particular who see Sheryl and Alto the way they are. There are a lot of reasons why, and why not. ani_d seems to be quite open for a Sheryl Alto end, but she stated her reasons why she thinks that the Sheryl Alto end should be worked on a little more. It doesn't equate to saying that she doesn't like Sheryl Alto end, she feels that Sheryl's development is given an injustice, and needs development fast because there are only a few eps left to rectify anything, or even give her a supermove which could suddenly come out of nowhere if written badly. Anime is not meant to be "hey you're supposed to think my way" and get angry about a fan who doesn't seem to think their way. Anime was supposed to be watched for enjoyment and meaningful discussions in anime forums like these, not for the purpose of shipping wars or fandom wars. >.>;;
Be right back, working on a linguistics paper. >.>;;
Dash_Hunter
2008-07-30, 23:20
rant
Sigh... ok, this seriously gets my vote for worst argument since I've been on suki. Who the hell cares if if teens are up late, if the Macross fanbase is older, if it's airing on the "Otaku hour," or what fucking age group Frontier is after.
It's not going to change the outcome of the love triangle, Kawamori is going to do what he damn well pleases (we should hope). And if he damn well pleases Alto is going to end up with Ranka, then he'll end up with Ranka. If Kawamori damn well pleases Alto and Sheryl to be together, then he'll end up with Sheryl.
There's as much there for the seinen crowd as there is for the shonen crowd as there is for the shojo crowd and so on. And if you're 17, or 47... deal with it.
/rant
Back to the subject of romance... Sheryl supermove this week anyone?
I totally agree with you, Kawamori already has the end for the series and there is nothing that will change his decision, even if Ranka is super popular that wonīt change what he will do, as you said Kawamori does what he wants and what he thinks is the best choice for his story, do you want an example?
The first Series, in the original Macross Misa normally was more popular here in america and europe than Minmei (thanks to robotech), but did you know that Minmei was extremely popular in Japan? she was always more loved than Misa there, some japanese didnīt like Misa for her personality but Minmeiīs popularity was devastating and everyone knows what Kawamori did, he decided to end the series with HikaruxMisa and not with Minmei because that was what he thought that would be the best for the story.
So my point here is that Rankaīs popularity or Sherylīs popularity will not change what Kawamori already has in mind for the end of Frontier.
I mean, do you think he will do what the fans want? he, the man that has negated to do what most of macross fans want, to show what happened to the Megaroad 1 and the fate of the original triangle since the end of Flashback 2012.
And donīt get me wrong iīm not saying that the end wonīt be RankaxAlto because i really think there is a high possibility that it will happen maybe even more than SherylxAlto (i want Sheryl to be with Alto in the end but iīm not sure it will happen) all iīm saying is that the popularity of the characters wonīt change what kawamori will do with the end.
Sorry if i have grammar or spelling mistakes but english is not my first language
I don't think anyone said Ranka wasn't popular. I even noted that both Ranka and Sheryl are well loved characters in my post. But I think using the Kira! thing as a gauge for her popularity is misleading considering some of this fanart was created by people who don't even know who Ranka is. It's a fad that is spreading among people who aren't MF fans. There are better ways to prove her popularity. Polls, for one thing. I don't really think her popularity is at issue here anyway.
If ani_d sees Ranka and Alto the way they are, there's no reason to raise pitchforks at why she does think so, or this even applies to you or herbert or other Sheryl fans in particular who see Sheryl and Alto the way they are. There are a lot of reasons why, and why not.It has nothing to do with me. I have 'Sheryl fan' written on my face from day 1 and changed it to "super-Sheryl-biased" a few weeks after. I've never claimed my predictions facts or my opinion neutral. I see Sheryl and Alto the way I have seen because I'm a Sheryl fan, I'm sure I'd think different if I'm a Ranka fan. There is a thing I need to admit, I prefer BleachOB to any other Ranka fan who have posted often in this AS forum, because she doesn't pretend to be neutral.
magnuskn
2008-07-31, 02:15
At the moment things are a bit on hold in the episodes themselves... episode 15 had Sheryl and Ranka declare their feelings as open as could be to Alto ( c'mon... singing at the guy? Imagine that happening in real life ) and Alto, while feeling overwhelmed, finally seemed to catch on a bit, but episode 16 dropped the thread wholesale, because it focused so much on the Galaxy plot progression.
Well, beside the Sheryl stuff, but that just reinforced again how dense Alto is in regards to Sheryl-samas feelings. :p
Anh_Minh
2008-07-31, 03:07
Sheryl sang at Ranka too. Could it be she's the center of the love triangle? (Wait... which she? I don't even know any more.)
Sheryl sang at Ranka too. Could it be she's the center of the love triangle? (Wait... which she? I don't even know any more.)It's not just about their acts, also the intentions behind those acts.
Anh_Minh
2008-07-31, 04:16
The thing is, Alto is being faulted precisely for failing to read Sheryl's intentions. Magnukn's post mentioned that singing was a telltale of her feelings. I'm just saying, in itself it doesn't mean that much. She sings. It's what she does. It's no more meaningful than Alto's paperplane throwing.
Alto's dense, yes, but it's not entirely his fault. Sheryl's been touchy feely with him since before she knew her return to Galaxy would be postponed, when she wasn't looking for a Frontier boyfriend. She also, most famously, went as far as kissing him before laughing it off. So, yeah, if he has troubles taking her feelings seriously, I can't blame him.
Well, I sort of agree. Alto can't be faulted for not knowing Sheryl's feelings since she is so hot and cold. Like in episode 16, as funny as it was, she basically did go to seek him out, he saved her and then ended up punching him in the face for his trouble. I think she will have to do more to actually show him she likes him (ssssuper move!)
But he should know both girls at least care about him.
Anh_Minh
2008-07-31, 05:06
He does. But I don't think he knows what they want from him.
Heck, I'm not sure they know what they want from him.
He does. But I don't think he knows what they want from him.
Heck, I'm not sure they know what they want from him.
I don't think love often has anything specifically to do with want.
- Tak
Anh_Minh
2008-07-31, 07:59
Oh? And what word would you use? Crave? Desire?
Anyway, the point is, Alto doesn't know they want him for a boyfriend, and I'm not persuaded they know either.
Sheryl knows, but is still reluctant, Ranka think she knows, but she's probably wrong :heh:
Now that i think of it, Alto has some Shinn tendencies.... he flies, get's pissed of, and kicks butt, no realy motives, just venting his anger :uhoh: completely oblivious to the what and why.
@herbert I would try to ignore too but she keeps replying too me, like my last post on omni's blog I said in #macrossuki something like, "I've gone fishing I wonder who will reply", Ickem said "someone will" and I replied "yeah ani_d will for sure lol. 5 posts later....
If Orion can only see this interview of Kawamori. He/She has more right to laugh at you. ^_^
Actually I worded it wrong, he said Frontier's audience was composed mostly of teenagers and as that demographics break down showed he was wrong. He didn't exactly have the best predictions for this series, he thought Sheryl was just going to be a minor thing and was pushing it so much that after episode 6 he hasn't even posted in this forum again. He like you seemed to misunderstand the meaning of triangle.
Also for the last time, stop basing your Sheryl ending on that Sheryl-centric ED theme. I could write an essay on how pointless this ED theme analysis is, but I wouldn't since it is utterly pointless.
Ohhohoho don't act so high and mighty miss Noe will win because she was shown first in the ED. Nothing I've said was ever as absurd as that, or am I mistaking you for someone else here?
If you think Sheryl will go jam that rock song in front of Alto for her supermove or something, then whatever. If you ask me, she'll have more chances of snatching Alto's heart if she sings Diamond Crevasse to him.
Are you saying that Alto is ignorant moron who would ignore lyrics for an actual song over the type of song instead? You're comparing a ballad sung for someone else to a song aimed @ Alto which will be sung publicly... Like Jay-Z said "Do you fools listen to music or do you just skim through it". You seem hung up on the type of song Northern Cross is more so than the actual lyrics itself, maybe you're one of those people Shawn Carter was talking about.
Btw there's fairly good odds that Northern Cross would have a slow downed verse like Infinity has a jazz one...
Eh, if Sheryl was the one who made an impression in episode 12, then how the heck did this Kira! craze come about?
You realize the talk of episode 12 went pretty much... WTF MACROSS!!! Go Sheryl and Ranka is cute! This meme fad you're bragging about wasn't even in popular until.. a few weeks after 12 aired. Hardly the talk of episode 12 isn't it... I check danboorou and japanese image boards and those Kira pics weren't an instant success. You might want to look at the date of the blog posts you posted, all of them in late july when episode 12 aired he 26th of June.
There are a lot of reasons why, and why not. ani_d seems to be quite open for a Sheryl Alto end,
She said around episode 10 that she saw no possible way to have a Sheryl end in this show, such an open mind! Also after episode 7 she didn't even want to talk about Ranka and was all aboard the SS Branka.
but she stated her reasons why she thinks that the Sheryl Alto end should be worked on a little more. It doesn't equate to saying that she doesn't like Sheryl Alto end, she feels that Sheryl's development is given an injustice, and needs development fast because there are only a few eps left to rectify anything, or even give her a supermove which could suddenly come out of nowhere if written badly.
Yes I too would like to see Sheryl avoid something as out of nowhere as Ranka's episode 12 thing. Doubt Sheryl will have the same problem though, everything from the end of episode 4 to now is building up to her public confession in Northern Cross.
The first Series, in the original Macross Misa normally was more popular here in america and europe than Minmei (thanks to robotech), but did you know that Minmei was extremely popular in Japan? she was always more loved than Misa there, some japanese didnīt like Misa for her personality but Minmeiīs popularity was devastating and everyone knows what Kawamori did, he decided to end the series with HikaruxMisa and not with Minmei because that was what he thought that would be the best for the story.]
Yes Minmei's popularity was off the scale in Japan, it set up Mari Iijima for a more succesful musical career than May'n or Megumi will see. If you flicked though the first issue of Macross Chronicles you would assume Minmei was the winner, lol even the DYRL Movie poster focuses more on Hikaru and Minmei with Misa in the background and this is for a movie where everyone already knew the results.
Oh? And what word would you use? Crave? Desire?
Anyway, the point is, Alto doesn't know they want him for a boyfriend, and I'm not persuaded they know either.Want, crave, and desire are about objects. You can love someone without making plans to (date/marry/have kids with) them.
Bizarre, I know. :/
Well, I sort of agree. Alto can't be faulted for not knowing Sheryl's feelings since she is so hot and cold. Like in episode 16, as funny as it was, she basically did go to seek him out, he saved her and then ended up punching him in the face for his trouble. I think she will have to do more to actually show him she likes him (ssssuper move!)
But he should know both girls at least care about him.
I think Alto is less dense than people give him credit for...
...but his track record when doing 'nice' things for/because of Sheryl kind of stands on it's own... hanging up the earring in his cockpit and then... losing it... bringing Sheryl home and... getting beat up.
I don't think love often has anything specifically to do with want.
- Tak
So, so true.
Okay, just to shut people up about this "Kira!" craze. I don't know why people are still making excuses that the fad doesn't mean Ranka is popular or is loved, but whatever. Lots of blogs are talking about this new craze in Japan and yes, Ranka has made a splash in episode 12. If you want to pretend it's not true, then I honestly could care less.
There you go again. Then perhaps you can enlighten us with your infinite wisdom regarding the equally popular phenomenon, Caramel Dansen.
Tell us if its popularity is caused by:
1. Mass love for a certain Swedish pop group
2. Mass love for a certain eroge
3. Or simply Internet popularity gone berserk
And do keep in mind that most people do not know anything about the first two.
Ranka's kira, as familiar as we are with its origins, are nothing more than another Internet phenomenon to most others.
Oh? And what word would you use? Crave? Desire?
Anyway, the point is, Alto doesn't know they want him for a boyfriend, and I'm not persuaded they know either.
Do you love someone because you want something from them? Perhaps materialistically?
I think not.
There is a reason why love often leads to a level of foolishness, because for the most part, its foolishly unconditional. Or it reaches a certain level of equality, but not because of want, but rather stems from mutual feelings.
Sheryl desires companionship and understanding from probably the only person in the universe as of right now who would treat her as a normal human being, but that itself is a feeling of matching equalities, not want. That, and they are essentially two free spirits, or something like that.
I can't say much about Ranka's situation, though. I frankly don't know anything about her nearly mindless crush on Alto.
- Tak
Anh_Minh
2008-07-31, 16:24
I'm not talking about reasons for love. Where did you get that?
I'm talking about the difference between wanting a drink buddy, an actual friend and confidante, or a lover.
Also, funny how in one breath you say love in unconditional, and in the next you say Alto fulfills Sheryl's needs (in other words, she isn't disinterested), but dismiss Ranka's attraction for being mindless (in other words, she doesn't have an angle, she just likes Alto. It's... unconditional). Note, I don't really agree with that analysis, but whatever.
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