Claymore Chapter 81 [Archive] - Page 5

chibamonster

2008-07-10, 16:11

@khryoleoz: It makes sense that Claymores do not really run out of youki as much as they run against their limit. This is what happened to Miria. The 6 armed AB and Rigardo took her to her limit, though if she went past her limit again, which she has not done that we know of, she'd probably be happily restored like Clare or Jean or Deneve.

AB's probably run out of youki too at some point. Looking at the Slashers arc Helen and Deneve cut off his arms 6 times (some of the same arms twice). He catches the first 3 cut off in the air with youki tentacles and regrows the next 2 that we see, so not sure what he does with the last one. From one panel it appears both Helen and Denve cut off 3 arms each. I don't think Miria even cuts off one the Paburo AB's limbs although she probably is aiming at his head. Clare also takes off 5 of his arms along with a chunk of his tongue (ye-owch). He does not get these limbs back. We do not know if he is out of youki, or if he cannot focus enough to regenerate/youki-catch his limbs because Clare is continuing her attack and when he finally gets her off of him Miria is back to standing. Maybe he had used too much in his finger attacks. Maybe he was focusing a lot into his next attack from under the ground. Or maybe he really was low on youki. Not sure which it was, just something I noticed. I would think after having his arms cut off 11 times the guy would be low on youki, but that may not be the case as we do not know. He retreated to regrow his arms after Deneve cut them and that was not an option for him as Miria had flanked him.

Also it is interesting to note that Ophelia wanted Clare to kill her quickly because she knew she would start regenerating soon. Regenerate soon!?! She was missing like 90%+ of her body! AB's are crazy.

williamaugustus

2008-07-10, 16:27

AB's probably run out of youki too at some point.

yes. and as proof rigald seemed truly amazed about and scared of Priscilla's energy. he even says, "the energy being held back normally is gushing forth from all her wounds... it seems limitless."
that is proof enough that AB/AOs run out eventually.

Korinov

2008-07-10, 16:29

Oh guys, I really envy your capacity of think, write and discuss a topic like this through pages and pages... no joking, I wouldn't be capable :D But to say something related to the actual discussion, I'd say the easiest point: each claymore is different in a lot of ways, and youki liberation isn't the exception :)

However, 10th of July here. Almost 20 days to get our hands on the first spoilers of the new chapter. Without your huge posts and arguments, I'd be dead soon. So... continue talking about youki states and things like that, please. Meanwhile, I'll continue to erase locust from Sera's ground ;)

chibamonster

2008-07-10, 16:36

yes. and as proof rigald seemed truly amazed about and scared of Priscilla's "the energy being held back normally is gushing forth from all her wounds... it seems limitless."
that is proof enough that AB/AOs run out eventually.

Although Priscilla, Clare and Teresa might never have that issue :D. Instead they will cause the Spiral Nemesis from tengen toppa gurren lagann.

Isley and Luciella definitely pushed each other to their limits as well, though to get there the battle was so violent that Galatea was like, "What the... I can never sense stuff this far away." I imagine with Galatea's youki vision she saw a giant youki mushroom cloud rising over the mountains. Then she left the organization and raised Orphans. I wonder how she will keep what she did secret from the kids? Hopefully people will help her because if people start talking it could be dangerous. Info can be the real killer in Claymore. Though I really like the idea of the kids bad mouthing or doing something stupid and Galatea smiling and saying, "Oooh? Isn't someone acting like a little youma..." Then she starts chasing them. Can you imagine being a kid trying to play tag with Galatea? Even if she is blind...

Awakened

2008-07-10, 16:39

This is all just speculative theorizing of course. It's as reliable as saying Raki and Priss had bumped ugly throughout the past 7 years. I can't prove it right now but it's probably likely. :p

I'm not sure whether we can say that warriors really "run out" of yoki, or at least quickly. I think that in their state as warriors, what occurs as yoki flows isn't yet that they're exhausting their supply. If there's any reason to why they must stop, it's because higher releases result in flow that is less controllable until they can't control it and poof, they look prettier than ever before. It would be AB's who are more likely to spend their yoma energy more quickly than the warrior counterparts, whose yoma energy is compressed and restrained and is incrementally released like steam from a boiling pot.

Ok, technically Claymores do not run out of yoki very quickly, but they do have a limit to the amount of yoki that they can use at any given time.

80% is not a good indication of a claymores limit.
If a Claymore is injured they limit goes down.
Anger, Clare agains Riful (witchmar). More general, their state of mind have an effect on their limit, Clare's friend for example (her mind was so weak that her limit was at 0%).

Edit: Miria also lost control when she killed her friend

Fenrir_valindri

2008-07-10, 17:08

Awakened

2008-07-10, 17:11

For Deneve going over limit 2nd time, check Chap 53 - 2nd to last page.

I looked at Chap 53-2nd to last page, Deven did not go over her limit.

Awakened

2008-07-10, 17:17

I don't think the "limit" ever lowers, except maybe in Elena's case.

Yoki is just linked to emotions, so when someone is overcome with rage, or other extremely aggressive emotions, they instinctively bring their Yoki up.

When Clare fought in Ramona and almost awakened, she tried not using her yoki. If her limit was not lower than usual she would have nothing to worry about.

The weaker the mind, the lower the limit.

Jean had a strong mind, her limit was higher than most Claymores.

PGilis

2008-07-10, 17:17

I don't think the "limit" ever lowers, except maybe in Elena's case.

Yoki is just linked to emotions, so when someone is overcome with rage, or other extremely aggressive emotions, they instinctively bring their Yoki up.

If i remember right, after fighting Easley Luciela also run out of energy... se was so weak she even could'nt keep her transformed self, going back to human form.

Awakened

2008-07-10, 17:25

yes. and as proof rigald seemed truly amazed about and scared of Priscilla's energy. he even says, "the energy being held back normally is gushing forth from all her wounds... it seems limitless."
that is proof enough that AB/AOs run out eventually.

The Ab that Jean team was fighting against in the North also was running low. Jean said they there were wearing him down (something like that).

SagaraSouske

2008-07-10, 19:09

1. Deven, Clare, Galatea, Isley and Lusilla all exhausted they yoki supply. If the Claymores that I mention had continued using their yoki, they would have awakened.

Capter 47, page 5
Clare: this is bad, Galatea is at her limit
page 8-9
Riful to Galatea: you were a hair's breath to going over your limit
page 11
Clare: Are you alright?
Galatea: I would not call it alright, but i will magage somehow

For the first two frame, I think it is just info to show that Galatea has been fighting at just below her limit. I don't think it has anything to do with running out of youki. I think at the limit here means that she is close to awakening, not at the limit of running out of youki.
For the 3rd frame, Galatea was still injured by Dauf even fighting at near her limit, I think Clare is concerned about the injury and her combat capability after sustaining those injuries.

Capter 48 page 22
Galatea: sorry I guess i can still manage hi jaw

2. In the slasher ark Deven ran out of yoki after regenerating just once. You can argue that she had more yoki to go over her limit, but going over your limit is not a normal thing to do. Going over your limit is not relevant for this argument, most Claymores do not come back after going over their limit.

Several people speculated injure has effect on youki control. When Deneve went over limit to heal in Slasher Arc, it was similar. She did run low of youki there because instant regeneration apparently consumes a huge amount of youki.

Chapter 30 page 20
Miria: Stop it Deven if you force your yoma power in your condition

As far as am concerned there is a limit to the amount of yoki a Claymore can use, if you don’t agree, let’s agree to disagree.

I don't think the limit refers to the amount of youki a claymore can use, but refer to the 80% point of no return where if they go over, they start the awakening process. Crossing the limit, going over the limit, near the limit etc are referring to that 80% line.

SagaraSouske

2008-07-10, 19:13

I looked at Chap 53-2nd to last page, Deven did not go over her limit.

The AB on that page said: "Impossible, both of you should have gone over your limit!!, Why... Impossible..." The AB sensed that both Clare and Deneve went over their limit and yet they are not awakening, thus was surprised.

SagaraSouske

2008-07-10, 19:15

The Ab that Jean team was fighting against in the North also was running low. Jean said they there were wearing him down (something like that).

AB runs out of youki faster is possible. In their full awaken form, they consume youki much faster then claymores or compare to in their human forms.

Awakened

2008-07-10, 19:31

The AB on that page said: "Impossible, both of you should have gone over your limit!!, Why... Impossible..." The AB sensed that both Clare and Deneve went over their limit and yet they are not awakening, thus was surprised.

look at chap 53, page 31.
Deven answers his question..

Kinematics

2008-07-10, 19:37

look at chap 53, page 31.
Deven answers his question..

I think it's pretty clear there that Deneve was lying to cover up the nature and capabilities of herself and Clare. They're not trying to blab to the entire world about what they are.

Awakened

2008-07-10, 20:06

I think it's pretty clear there that Deneve was lying to cover up the nature and capabilities of herself and Clare. They're not trying to blab to the entire world about what they are.

I don't think that Deneve was lying, I think they were able to last that long because they bough are Claymore that have partially awoke. Increase stamina is one of the benefits of partially awaking. Clare was the only one that went over her limit, early in the fight.

In the slasher ark, Miria said that they are able to do things without releasing, that is not normally possible.

Cyclone

2008-07-10, 20:08

I don't think that Deneve was lying, I think they were able to last that long because they bough are Claymore that have partially awoke. Increase stamina is one of the benefits of partially awaking. Clare was the only one that went over her limit, early in the fight.

No. She was lying. Flora noticed it too, but decided she didn't want to know.

Awakened

2008-07-10, 20:12

No. She was lying. Flora noticed it too, but decided she didn't want to know.

There is no way I can win this, so I give up.

Edit: Ok it might not make any difference but the Ab's exact words were
Both of you should have gone over your limit!! Why...
He did not say they did, he does not know why they haven’t.

williamaugustus

2008-07-10, 20:13

I think it's pretty clear there that Deneve was lying to cover up the nature and capabilities of herself and Clare. They're not trying to blab to the entire world about what they are.

I don't think that Deneve was lying, I think they were able to last that long because they bough are Claymore that have partially awoke. Increase stamina is one of the benefits of partially awaking. Clare was the only one that went over her limit, early in the fight.

i think the AB had them go above the normal limit but their limit is higher. therefore they did not go to their limit and did not awaken. so she was not lying, just not telling the truth.;) thats all.:D

SagaraSouske

2008-07-10, 21:59

There is no way I can win this, so I give up.

Edit: Ok it might not make any difference but the Ab's exact words were
Both of you should have gone over your limit!! Why...
He did not say they did, he does not know why they haven’t.

The reason why the AB said should is because they did go over the 80% threshold yet did not begin the awakening process as they should have. Hence he was surprised and said it was impossible.

See Chap 54 Page 1, Flora was surprised as well. She thought: "Those two... How...?"

See Chap 55 Page 20, after Flora and Clare finished their duel, Flora said: "And there is one more thing I would like to ask you. In that battle, for one second, didn't you go over your limit?" Then she decided to drop the subject: "Nah, never mind. It is probably something rather trivial in a situation like that."

It's not just the AB, but Flora noticed it too.

Awakened

2008-07-10, 22:19

The reason why the AB said should is because they did go over the 80% threshold yet did not begin the awakening process as they should have. Hence he was surprised and said it was impossible.

See Chap 54 Page 1, Flora was surprised as well. She thought: "Those two... How...?"

See Chap 55 Page 20, after Flora and Clare finished their duel, Flora said: "And there is one more thing I would like to ask you. In that battle, for one second, didn't you go over your limit?" Then she decided to drop the subject: "Nah, never mind. It is probably something rather trivial in a situation like that."

It's not just the AB, but Flora noticed it too.

I thought she was referring to Clare going over her limit at the beginning of the fight, when they were all pinned down.

But like I said I can't win this fight. Anyone can interpret the Ab and Flora's statement the way they want.

Kinematics

2008-07-10, 22:36

I thought she was referring to Clare going over her limit at the beginning of the fight, when they were all pinned down.

Clare didn't go over her limit at that point, she let loose with Irene's arm (which wasn't being directly controlled by the AB, though it can, in a sense, be considered a separate entity). Again, the AB specifically commented on that: "What's this? Only her right arm is on a different level??"

Kinematics

2008-07-10, 22:56

A followup detail to help confirm my earlier post (bottom of p.50), when Deneve was speaking with Undine, one of her comments was "There is no doubt the feeling of approaching the limit is terrifying." That definitely supports the idea that merely fighting just below the limit is not a trivial matter, and that there is likely a long slope of increasingly strong yoki-spawned urges to contend with at higher yoki releases.

SagaraSouske

2008-07-10, 22:57

I thought she was referring to Clare going over her limit at the beginning of the fight, when they were all pinned down.

But like I said I can't win this fight. Anyone can interpret the Ab and Flora's statement the way they want.

Why would Flora say "Those two" if she was only referring to Clare. Besides, Clare didn't go over the limit at the beginning of the fight.

Awakened

2008-07-10, 23:48

Clare didn't go over her limit at that point, she let loose with Irene's arm (which wasn't being directly controlled by the AB, though it can, in a sense, be considered a separate entity). Again, the AB specifically commented on that: "What's this? Only her right arm is on a different level??"

Why would Flora say "Those two" if she was only referring to Clare. Besides, Clare didn't go over the limit at the beginning of the fight.

Flora exact words were
For one second didn’t you go over your limit.. (There was no question mark) chap 55 page 20.

I don't see how that could mean Clare and Deven were fighting over their limit. The only time it made sense for Clare to go over her limit was when they were pinned down by the AB.

To me if Clare and Deven were fighting over their limit everyone would know they went over there limit. Flora did not ask Clare if she went over her limit she told Clare that she went over her limit for one second.

The AB is a yoki sensor just like Galatea, if Deven and Clare had gone over their limit he should know more than anyone ells, but he did not know why Clare and Deven did not go over their limit.

Flora also did not know what was going on with Clare and Deven. Are you trying to tell me that Claymores can read yoki, but when two Claymores go over their limit in front of a bunch of Claymores and a powerful yoki sensing Ab, they all got confused, and no one notice that they went over there limit? Am not referring to when Flora was talking to Clare, just during the fight with the AB when they all had that confused look on their faces. To me Flora was referring to Clare going over her limit at the beginning of the fight.

I want to just give up, I don’t know why I keep replying.

Cyclone

2008-07-11, 00:12

Flora exact words were
For one second didn’t you go over your limit. chap 55 page 20.

I don't see how that could mean Clare and Deven were fighting over her limit, the only time it made sense for Clare to go over her limit was when they were pinned down by the AB.

To me if Clare and Deven were fighting over their limit everyone would know they went over there limit. Flora did not ask Clare if she went over her limit she told Clare that she went over her limit for one second.

The AB is a yoki sensor just like Galatea, if Deven and Clare had gone over their limit he should know more than anyone ells, but he did not know why Clare and Deven did not go over their limit.

Flora also did not know what was going on with Clare and Deven. Are you trying to tell me that Claymores can read yoki, but when two Claymores go over their limit in front of a bunch of Claymores and a powerful yoki sensing Ab, they all got confused, and no one notice that they went over there limit? Am not referring to when Flora was talking to Clare, just during the fight with the AB when they all had that confused look on their faces.

I want to just give up, I don’t know why I keep replying.

No matter how much bold or even caps you use, I'm sorry to say that it's fairly obvious to just about everyone but you, that Clare and Deneve were pushed over the 'normal' limit by that AB.

Just think about the scene in total for a second:
The AB just revealed that his plan is to yoki manipulate the ones who attack him into awakening by forcing them past their limits. It almost works on Undine (probably would have worked if she wasn't kicked away). Step up Clare and Deneve (why not Flora and/or someone else?) - the two partially awakened Claymores out of the 10. The AB tries the plan he used on Undine. Flora and all the others gasp.... (break for boring insect guy fight)... scene back to Deneve and Clare and a stunned AB. The AB cannot understand why it didn't work. It should have worked. So why should it have worked? If he couldn't manipulate the yoki well enough, he'd know and wouldn't be surprised - he'd know they resisted the manipulation and probably applaud their will power in resisting. He was shocked. Only reasonable explanation is that he pushed them past the point needed to awaken anyone else and nothing happened (shocked becuase partially awakened Claymores don't have the same limit he was expecting). Add to this Flora's comment to Clare and Undine's to Deneve, and it's about as clear as it can be without anyone actually saying "The AB pushed my beyond my limits and, look ma, nothing happened".

Don't believe me - fine. I wont lose any sleep over it.

PS - about no question marks. Though the japanese sometimes use question marks, their marker for a interogative sentence is appending a 'ka' to the sentence. The japanese also have a nasty habbit of not finishing their sentences, and letting the listener piece together the probably subject, verb, and yes - the question mark 'ka' at the end. Without looking, I'm williing to bet that some such case happened.

Edit: I was right: ano tatakai no naka de isshun genkai o ...
"in that fight, for a moment, [your] limit ..." <verb to the imagination>....

Kinematics

2008-07-11, 00:27

I don't see how that could mean Clare and Deven were fighting over her limit, the only time it made sense for Clare to go over her limit was when they were pinned down by the AB.

Please clarify which scene you are referring to here.

I assume (as I did when you first replied) what you meant by this was the period ch 52 pp 26 - 29 when they first get pinned on the rooftop. In that scene, Clare's thoughts are, "Please... Irene" followed by the sudden destruction of the roof. The AB follows that with the comment, "What's this? Only her right arm is on a different level??"

I can't see how you can possibly consider that as a point where Clare went past her limit. Everything about that scene was about getting Irene's arm to move when Clare herself could not. In fact you can see that her left arm is still pinned to the roof on page 28 while Irene's arm lashes out. If you are comparing it to the time when she escaped from Ophelia's physical pin-down to rescue Raki you would expect that not to be the case.

If that is not the scene you are referring to, disregard the above.

Side note: It's Deneve, not Deven.

Flora did not ask Clare if she went over her limit she told Clare that she went over her limit for one second.

Presumably referring to ch 55, p 20. In that case, Flora said, "And there is one more thing I wanted to ask you. In that battle for just one second, didn't you go over your lim.." (10sigh translation) or "There's one more thing I wanted to ask you. In the battle, it looked like you crossed.." (Viz translation) In both cases, she specifically states that she wants to ask Clare about it, and in both cases the following phrasing is either as a question or a tentative query. In neither case can you say that she told Clare that she went over her limit.

To me if Clare and Deven were fighting over their limit everyone would know they went over there limit.

Only good sensors would be able to say for sure, so you can't say that "everyone would know".

The AB is a yoki sensor just like Galatea, if Deven and Clare had gone over their limit he should know more than anyone ells, but he did not know why Clare and Deven did not go over their limit.

As you seem to agree, as the AB is indeed a sensor type. The question is, what did he mean by "Both of you should have gone over your limit!" The evidence that they did not go over their limit is the simple fact that they didn't awaken. We also know that Clare, at least, is not immune to his manipulation (as seen on the rooftop), therefore it cannot be simply that his attempt to push them over the limit had no effect at all. The only other explanation is that they were pushed past the point that he "knew" would be their limit (ie: 80%), but that it did not have the effect he expected (them awakening).

Flora also did not know what was going on with Clare and Deven.

Correct. She had a surprised comment during the fight ("Those two.. Just how.."), and she started to question Clare about it after their duel.

Are you trying to tell me that Claymores can read yoki, but when two Claymores go over their limit in front of a bunch of Claymores and a powerful yoki sensing Ab, they all got confused, and no one notice that they went over there limit?

That's exactly the point. There are 'known truths' in the Claymore universe. One of those is that you can't go past 80% yoki release without awakening. So all those Claymores nearby (but most specifically Flora and the AB) saw that Clare and Deneve went past 80% (and thus must have awakened), but they also saw that those two did -not-, in fact, awaken. With two conflicting pieces of information, which do you believe?

Deneve took advantage of that confusion by simply telling the AB that he must have been mistaken about them going over 80% ("Must have been your imagination."). That's a much more believable 'reason' than the idea that those two just did what by all rights should be impossible. People are more likely to doubt their senses than doubt their established beliefs.

Awakened

2008-07-11, 00:36

No matter how much bold or even caps you use, I'm sorry to say that it's fairly obvious to just about everyone but you, that Clare and Deneve were pushed over the 'normal' limit by that AB.

Just think about the scene in total for a second:
The AB just revealed that his plan is to yoki manipulate the ones who attack him into awakening by forcing them past their limits. It almost works on Undine (probably would have worked if she wasn't kicked away). Step up Clare and Deneve (why not Flora and/or someone else?) - the two partially awakened Claymores out of the 10. The AB tries the plan he used on Undine. Flora and all the others gasp.... (break for boring insect guy fight)... scene back to Deneve and Clare and a stunned AB. The AB cannot understand why it didn't work. It should have worked. So why should it have worked? If he couldn't manipulate the yoki well enough, he'd know and wouldn't be surprised - he'd know they resisted the manipulation and probably applaud their will power in resisting. He was shocked. Only reasonable explanation is that he pushed them past the point needed to awaken anyone else and nothing happened (shocked becuase partially awakened Claymores don't have the same limit he was expecting). Add to this Flora's comment to Clare and Undine's to Deneve, and it's about as clear as it can be without anyone actually saying "The AB pushed my beyond my limits and, look ma, nothing happened".

Don't believe me - fine. I wont lose any sleep over it.

PS - about no question marks. Though the japanese sometimes use question marks, their marker for a interogative sentence is appending a 'ka' to the sentence. The japanese also have a nasty habbit of not finishing their sentences, and letting the listener piece together the probably subject, verb, and yes - the question mark 'ka' at the end. Without looking, I'm williing to bet that some such case happened.

Edit: I was right: ano tatakai no naka de isshun genkai o ...
"in that fight, for a moment, [your] limit ..." <verb to the imagination>....

Please clarify which scene you are referring to here.

I assume (as I did when you first replied) what you meant by this was the period ch 52 pp 26 - 29 when they first get pinned on the rooftop. In that scene, Clare's thoughts are, "Please... Irene" followed by the sudden destruction of the roof. The AB follows that with the comment, "What's this? Only her right arm is on a different level??"

I can't see how you can possibly consider that as a point where Clare went past her limit. Everything about that scene was about getting Irene's arm to move when Clare herself could not. In fact you can see that her left arm is still pinned to the roof on page 28 while Irene's arm lashes out. If you are comparing it to the time when she escaped from Ophelia's physical pin-down to rescue Raki you would expect that not to be the case.

If that is not the scene you are referring to, disregard the above.

Side note: It's Deneve, not Deven.

Presumably referring to ch 55, p 20. In that case, Flora said, "And there is one more thing I wanted to ask you. In that battle for just one second, didn't you go over your lim.." (10sigh translation) or "There's one more thing I wanted to ask you. In the battle, it looked like you crossed.." (Viz translation) In both cases, she specifically states that she wants to ask Clare about it, and in both cases the following phrasing is either as a question or a tentative query. In neither case can you say that she told Clare that she went over her limit.

Only good sensors would be able to say for sure, so you can't say that "everyone would know".

As you seem to agree, as the AB is indeed a sensor type. The question is, what did he mean by "Both of you should have gone over your limit!" The evidence that they did not go over their limit is the simple fact that they didn't awaken. We also know that Clare, at least, is not immune to his manipulation (as seen on the rooftop), therefore it cannot be simply that his attempt to push them over the limit had no effect at all. The only other explanation is that they were pushed past the point that he "knew" would be their limit (ie: 80%), but that it did not have the effect he expected (them awakening).

Correct. She had a surprised comment during the fight ("Those two.. Just how.."), and she started to question Clare about it after their duel.

That's exactly the point. There are 'known truths' in the Claymore universe. One of those is that you can't go past 80% yoki release without awakening. So all those Claymores nearby (but most specifically Flora and the AB) saw that Clare and Deneve went past 80% (and thus must have awakened), but they also saw that those two did -not-, in fact, awaken. With two conflicting pieces of information, which do you believe?

Deneve took advantage of that confusion by simply telling the AB that he must have been mistaken about them going over 80% ("Must have been your imagination."). That's a much more believable 'reason' than the idea that those two just did what by all rights should be impossible. People are more likely to doubt their senses than doubt their established beliefs.

It looks like Claymore can go over their limits without even their eye changing color. Clare having veins on her face in the past went she went over her limit was all unnecessary.

Kinematics

2008-07-11, 00:47

It looks like Claymore can go over their limits without even their eye changing color. Clare having veins on her face in the past went she went over her limit was all unnecessary.

It's called "offscreen". He started the attack, then they cut to the bug fight, then when they cut back the attack was over.

Awakened

2008-07-11, 00:51

It's called "offscreen". He started the attack, then they cut to the bug fight, then when they cut back the attack was over.

There is nothing I can say about that.

chibamonster

2008-07-11, 01:11

It is really interesting though that the AB Manipulator from the north can force people over their limits, with their bodies deforming and veins popping out all over the place but their eyes do not change color. I think there is something more to the eyes of a claymore than just being their and turning gold when they get pissed. When they cannot sense youki and are on suppressants apparently they can still use their own youki as seen with Miata in the north. So the youki suppressants do not stop them from releasing youki. Galatea can also sense people on pills which indicates it does not eliminate their aura like youki fasting does for the ghosts. Instead it seems the pills use a forced kind of suppression that does something else, as the only visible difference is their eyes go normal. The claymores then cannot sense youki. If they can release youki, but cannot sense youki that means the youki sensing faculty is different and independent from their power youki.

This is really interesting to me because youki usually makes the Claymores eyes go silver. The suppressants restore their original color, which apparently is always there but is masked by the youki. Even Claymores who completely mask their aura like the 11 of them who have appeared in the story still have silver eyes. Just like more information has appeared about the sword I am positive there will be more information coming up about Suppressant Pills and maybe even the silver eyes of a claymore.

yezhanquan

2008-07-11, 01:21

Well, the silver eyes had been the mark to distinguish them from ordinary people. But, with Yagi as the lore spinner, anything can happen.

ABUBI

2008-07-11, 01:38

awesome chapter.

Awakened

2008-07-11, 01:41

It's called "offscreen". He started the attack, then they cut to the bug fight, then when they cut back the attack was over.

It all makes perfect sense now. The Ab forced Clare and Deneve to go over their limit off-screen, then right after we see them he let them go back to normal and then he was confused, and wonder why they did not go over there limit.

Flora saw the Ab manipulate Clare, making her go over her limit, but she was not sure if he made her go over the limit. To confirm what she already knows she wanted to ask Clare, but then she changed her mind. It also looks like that Ab was very weak, he only manage to push Clare over her limit for one second.

Edit: Clare needed Iren's power to get away from the Ab's manipulating her, but off-screen she was manipulated and it had no effect on her, when the Ab tried to manipulate her on-screen she used the quick-sword to stop him. There was no need for her stopping him because the Abs manipulation has no effect on her. She just can’t let us see her get manipulated by the Ab, so she used quick-sword. She must have known that the Abs manipulation had no effect on her, but she was hiding her true power from us, so she stopped the Ab, and thus hiding her true power from us.

It’s all clear to me now.

Thank you all for clearing things up for me, I was just as confused as the Ab and Flora.

SagaraSouske

2008-07-11, 01:43

Please also see final slasher chapter where Galatea sensing Deneve going over her limit when she was trying to heal herself. It is almost exactly the same scenario. Galatea sensed Deneve going over limit and yet a moment later back to normal. She was surprised too but chose not to reveal to MIB. We all know Deneve did go over her limit there, even you agreed. Galatea's reaction to Deneve's going over limit healing is almost exactly same as AB and Flora's to Clare and Deneve going over limit in Pieta.

Short of Yagi sensei comes here and say this is absolutely what happened, nothing is 100%. But the scene is pretty strongly suggestive that is how it happened, especially with precedence that is nearly identical.

tenken627

2008-07-11, 02:17

Thank you all for clearing things up for me, I was just as confused as the Ab and Flora.

Flora is never confused. She just pretended to be confused for a second to help the reader understand that Clare went over her limits. She knew all along, that's why she cut off the question.

Flora being confused is blasphemy!

On another note, I made a post to someone (sorry, I don't remember who) in this thread that strongly stated that the reason why Isley started moving instead of vegetating for another 100 years was only because he had Priscilla.

I would like to retract that statement as I re-read most of the chapters all over again and now I'm not so sure about it anymore.

I find it interesting that Isley and Rigald just reunited before they met Priscilla. They haven't seen each other in almost 100 years, and now they are together?

It might be that the news of towns getting destroyed by an AB could have brought the former #1 and #2 together, but Isley could have taken care of that himself. He never thought of Priscilla as anything more than a normal AB until she started fighting Rigald. Isley even apologized under his breath to Rigald, stating that he grossly underestimated Priscilla's power.

So, why call a meeting with your rival? Someone you know who was always itching to fight you. Most likely it was something more then to just swat some (in Isley's eyes) bothersome insignificant AB.

The last time Isley and Rigaldo most likely fought was before they Awakened. Isley made a mention of them "messing around" before their battle (against DoDs?) in which they probably Awakened in. The loser was to obey the winner, but Isley and Rigald do not seem to have communicated much (if at all) after their Awakening.

So why did they meet then? It wasn't just coincidence.

Maybe Isley was planning something before he was even aware of Priscilla. Maybe he was already starting to form his AB army for some purpose, and was already making plans to do something. Something big.

And, it wasn't until after meeting Priscilla that he altered some of those plans to attack Luciela.

I have no clue what he really wants to do, or where he may be right now, but it seems like he's been planning something for a long time now.

yezhanquan

2008-07-11, 02:55

Flora is never confused. She just pretended to be confused for a second to help the reader understand that Clare went over her limits. She knew all along, that's why she cut off the question.

Flora being confused is blasphemy!

Other than Veronica, she was the only one to drop dead without getting a shot at the Lion. Also, I seriously question her role in the series.

Kinematics

2008-07-11, 03:41

It also looks like that Ab was very weak, he only manage to push Clare over her limit for one second.

I think you're being overly literal with that. 'One second' is more often used for a short period of time (a few seconds, as opposed to sitting around watching for half a minute to a minute or more) than literally one second. Plus, the fact that he could perform such a feat at all, something many times more powerful than Galatea's little 'tweaks', says that he's hardly weak.

Clare needed Irene's power to get away from the Ab's manipulating her, but off-screen she was manipulated and it had no effect on her, when the Ab tried to manipulate her on-screen she used the quick-sword to stop him. There was no need for her stopping him because the Abs manipulation has no effect on her. She just can’t let us see her get manipulated by the Ab, so she used quick-sword. She must have known that the Abs manipulation had no effect on her, but she was hiding her true power from us, so she stopped the Ab, and thus hiding her true power from us.

Errr.. No. (I think; your description is somewhat confusing) She was not immune to the AB's manipulations. At issue is the fact that the intended goal of each of those manipulations was markedly different. The first time, he merely stopped her from moving, along with the rest of the team aside from the one he was going to force to kill the others. Clare was able to use the Quicksword (with her plea to Irene to help her) to destroy the roof and break his concentration, as well as get people out of the immediate range of the attack.

When he pushed her past her limits, that was entirely different. The primary effect still affected her - she went over the 80% limit point. But the secondary effect - awakening - did not affect her or Deneve because of their partial awakened status.

It's like the difference between hosing down a fire and hosing down a duck -- both get wet (the primary effect), but it's irrelevant to the duck (Clare), while it's devastating to the fire (eg: Undine).

PureYoki

2008-07-11, 04:10

I find it interesting that Isley and Rigald just reunited before they met Priscilla. They haven't seen each other in almost 100 years, and now they are together?

How do we know they hadn't seen each other for 100 years? If Rigardo challenged Isley to a duel after their awakening and swore loyalty to him after his defeat, he should have been around Isley all this time. :confused:

Also, I seriously question her role in the series.

Her role in the series was to let Clare copy a technique which is as effective as quicksword but doesn't require yoki release.

There's an issue I still don't understand. G7 learned to use their techniques without using yoki, right? But when they'll release their yoki, their techniques will certainly become more powerful and effective. So can't we say that they have become incredibly more powerful? Miria, Deneve, Helen and Clare had a hard time against 6-armed AB but I'm sure Miria, Deneve and Helen can now kill the same AB in no time. :confused:

And a very basic question, what is partial awakening? If you pass over your limit (80% that is) and don't awaken, it's partial awakening, right? So why did Teresa think you couldn't turn back once you passed 80%? Weren't there any other partially-awakened claymores in those 100 years, or were they kept secret? :confused:

Kinematics

2008-07-11, 04:23

And a very basic question, what is partial awakening? If you pass over your limit (80% that is) and don't awaken, it's partial awakening, right? So why did Teresa think you couldn't turn back once you passed 80%? Weren't there any other partially-awakened claymores in those 100 years, or were they kept secret?

To be fair, that's not completely accurate. Clare didn't release past 80%, exactly, she went past ~50%, killed the yoma, returned to silver-eye state, and then had the yoki surge through her.

Further, it wasn't obvious to any of Clare/Helen/Deneve before Miria explained it to them. A combination of the reticence to talk with fellow Claymores, a high likelyhood of not wanting to talk about personal events like near-awakening, and the efforts the Org goes to to keep the Claymores generally in the dark about the various 'truths' out there all lead to the conclusion that very few Claymores are aware of the nature of the event (if it happened to them), and those who haven't personally experienced it are very unlikely to even hear of it.

chibamonster

2008-07-11, 04:31

I think the ghosts will definitely be more powerful when they release their youki, the problem is the ghosts in the grand scheme of things really are not that strong. Clare and Miria are very tough but there are several #1 Class Claymores (Miata, Raphaela, Alicia and Beth) and AB's (Abyssals and Prissy) running about. Not to mention there is an entire world of monsters that has just opened its door. Since Clare singlehandedly disarmed and almost defeated that 6 arm AB back before she had Irene's arm I think it is pretty safe to say they could finish him very very quickly.

Of course I do not think the ghosts are at the end of their power journey. Especially Clare. Her awakened limbs are incredibly powerful, and some day she is going to dive into that power. I also think losing their cloak is going to be a huge disadvantage for them in almost every case but them utilizing their awakened forms. But this is all theory on my part. Some day they will release their youki. I just hope they survive whatever makes them do it.

We do not know what partial awakening really is (beyond crossing the limit and regaining control of ones youki) and no Claymores, even the ones who did it, knew it was possible before hand. Even as Jean held onto her mind and had a completely awakened body, something that flies in the face of what Claymores have been told about awakening, did not believe it was possible. What we do know about partial awakening is that it is permanant, their youki quality changes allowing them to do much more youki intensive techniques at lower youki outputs, and that they smell and taste like awakened beings. They also seem to be able to cross their limit more often, though only Clare and Deneve have done this.

As for Priscilla, she had never used her youki to fight and did not know her limits. So for her it probably would be impossible, though now years and years later, she seems to have overcome part of her awakening which is something totally new.

Since power ups were mentioned, I think it would be good to go through the power ups just clare has gotten so far. She started being incredibly weak though rather smart in battles by pulling tricks on her opponents. Then we have Partial awakening, Youki sensing (can't attack while sensing), Against Ophelia she crossed her limit to gain more power for the first time and saved Raki and also reattached her legs, then she learned the quicksword, got Irene's arm, improved her skill with quick sword as she got used to the arm, learned to manipulate someone back from their limit from Galatea, helped Jean back, learned to utilize her youki sensing and quicksword together against Duff, in the north she learned to awaken her limbs completely, and then synchronized her youki with Jean to bring herself back. Now she has cloaked her youki and is fighting with the windcutter, which was harder for her to learn than anyone else learning their technique. I do not think Clare is done with learning how to be a better warrior. I expect to see more awakened limbs and even a full body in the future, though I worry what would require that power.

PureYoki

2008-07-11, 05:32

Doesn't it seem weird that such common knowledge was unknown to any of the claymores or even ABs that are 100 years old? Even Riful didn't know of partial-awakening. Like Galatea or G7, there should be lots of renegade claymores around who crossed their limits and were targeted by the organization. I suspect the organization only recently managed to produce claymores who are able to cross their limits without awakening and they're only one step away from producing claymores who can use their whole power but don't awaken in the sense we know.

It won't be surprising if we see Clare's awakened form in the future. If Jean came back from awakening, so can Clare.

SagaraSouske

2008-07-11, 08:26

Ryuken

2008-07-11, 09:48

To be fair, that's not completely accurate. Clare didn't release past 80%, exactly, she went past ~50%, killed the yoma, returned to silver-eye state, and then had the yoki surge through her.

I think she was hovering between 79% and 80%. But definitely not beyond that.:)

PureYoki

2008-07-11, 11:13

I think from the 6 Arm AB in slasher arc, it is hinted that there may have been partial awakened claymores in the past but are sent to Org controlled ABs to get themselves killed. Fab 4 may have been the first group that survived such suicide missions.

Possibly, but how do they keep track of partially-awakened claymores? Ranks lower than 30 hardly joins AB hunts and may go unnoticed. And although Ophelia said that partially-awakeneds smell different, Miria didn't notice the others were partially-awakeneds until they did things normally not possible. (Maybe the organization was using the six-armed AB to dispatch hot-headed, rebellious claymores. It doesn't have to be related to partial awakening.)

It's hard to believe all partially-awakened claymores kept their mouths shut till now. And if they don't talk, other claymores, who witness them near-awaken, will talk. It has been more than 100 years and you know, people talk. (especially girls :D) I don't think such information can be kept secret for a long time. If the organization did say "Never go over 30% or you'll awaken," how long would it take to discover that they are wrong?

IMO the only plausible explanation is that partial awakening phenomenon is a new development. It seems R&D center of the organization developed a new technique which increased the yoki tolerance level of claymores.

Ancient Soul

2008-07-11, 12:12

About MiBs objective :

In the light of the last chapter when we see Priscilla suppressing yoki, Riful suppressing yoki, Isley suppressing yoki (most likely since neither Riful or The ORG don't seem to know about him right now), i think that what The ORG really want is an AB\AO very strong who can suppress her yoki but even more than this someone who is able to convert as much raw yoki into energy.I mean the AB\AO use huge amounts of yoki, but at the same time they release yoki radiations in every directions making them "visible" to anyone who sense yoki in all directions.This mean that you will never be able to attack the enemy without notice.An AO who can unleash all power an be barely sensed even at close distances will be better that one with maybe great yoki output, even stronger but who can attract all enemies within 100 km radius.You can use regular AB\AO just at frontal attacks but no tactics\strategies because they will be sensed and attacked.

I think that rather the ultimate weapon of mass destruction they want the ultimate assassin.Maybe someone very strong live on mainland (maybe the ruler of the other faction) and they want to kill him.Send someone strong enough to kill him and good enough at yoki conversion\mainpulation to have enough time to do the job before being overwhelmed by guards or something.

In fact the DODs maybe have a leader.If you kill him what will happen?Maybe even they will switch sides.Of course they may decide to avenge their leader, but if you kill the strongest among them most likely you can kill the others.

With The DODs on their side The ORG side can easily crush the others even without claymores...all they need is someone to show the DODs who is the boss an be loyal towards ORG Side.

About Yoki :

I'm not sure if this theory is in pair with others theories here...

So, lets go overboard...

We have nanobots (nanites) who are in nature from ancient times...remains of an old civilisation in the Claymore World who was engaged in nono-wars and the DODs are their descendents.Every hybrid has the ability to control a given number of nanobots.Nanobots convert themselfs in energy.

Raw Yoki (nanobots) is found everywhere in anything.(Galk&Cid "sensed" Agatha after all)
Yoki Output is the maximum number of controllable nanobots who can enter the Hybrid body at a time.
Yoki Quality is the conversion rate of nanobots in energy.
Yoki Control is Real Yoki Usage and Yoki Manipulation is an advanced form of Yoki Usage.
Training your body,mind&soul and age has an influence on Yoki Control.
Half-awakening influence all three yoki aspects.

Yoki Singnature is a mix of raw yoki and converted but unused yoki energy who is leaked out of body.

Miata could find Galatea keeping track of Galatea's raw yoki who was leacked as a track rather than the converted but unused energy who disperse in all directions as yoki radiation who seem to be sensed by the eyes.The Eyes sense yoki energy at long distances and raw yoki exchange at close distances.Miata sense raw yoki at very small concentrations rather than yoki energy at distance.That would explain also why Rennee didn't sensed Prisiclla.Priscilla don't have to much energy in her to expell or raw yoki either.

Galatea can't sense The Ghosts because they have very small amounts of raw yoki still in them but don't use yoki to generate energy.Miata can sense them because is more specializated in raw yoki than Galatea.Galatea is more specializated in yoki energy that why her main skill is yoki manipulation.But i think that Galatea was concentrated on the yoki energy flooding the area by Agatha.If she concentrate i think she can sense even the ghosts.

By this Yoki Supression mean : don't allow any nanobots entering the system\don't use nanobots to obtain energy within the system.With age and training you get better control.

By this appear that AB\AO use huge amounts of raw yoki , get huge amounts of energy units but at the same time loose huge amounts of energy (they can be sensed in their awakened form at very great distances).So in fact is possible that a half-awakened who can get a boost good enough of his yoki if he\she has very good yoki quality\control to be in pair in Yoki
Energy units with very strong AB\AO, but her yoki ouptut to be low compared with the AB\AO at the same time.Is all about effeciency of raw yoki usage to create yoki energy and then to control her.

When they awaken AB get maximum Yoki Output and Yoki Quality they bodies naturaly allow at maximum potential, but i think their Yoki Control remain the same as before awakening or even decrease because of the huge amount of yoki who need to be controlled.This is compensate by the amount of yoki raw their recieve.

So when we talk about "limit"...which one would be?

80% of the yoki energy units a claymore body can generate from the raw output or
80% of her raw yoki output?

Example Claymore form (arbitrary numbers) :

Yoki Output : 300
Yoki Quality : 70% (for every 100 nanobots she get 70 yoki energy)
Yoki Control : Good (can use only 50 out of 70 yoki energy out of 100 nanobots used)

...so during a battle she can use up to 150 yoki energy units out of 210 yoki energy units her body create out of 300 yoki raw units...the difference is wasted as yoki signature (60 energy units + 150 raw units)...

80% of the energy a claymore body can generate from the raw output is : 168 energy yoki units ; 80% of her yoki output : 240 raw yoki units

Example Claymore CLOACKED (arbitrary numbers) :

Yoki Output : 25 (low because of the suprression\the rest of the yoki was consumed by training\battles etc.)
Yoki Quality : DON'T USE THIS 70% (for every 100 nanobots she get 70 yoki energy)
Yoki Control : DON'T USE THIS Good (can use only 50 out of 70 yoki energy out of 100 nanobots used)

...so if she battle and don't use new yoki to replenish...how you sense claocked ones?

1. they don't leak any yoki energy...thus no eye sense them;
2. they don't attract any raw yoki into their body...thus no eye sense them;
3. they still leak a small amount of raw yoki...thus Miata sense them and even Galatea if she concentrate.
4. if there is yoki everywhere Galatea may be able to sense them by small changes in the yoki field but only if the area is not flooded by huge amounts of yoki released like in the Agatha case because she will be blinded with the yoki which has the greatest signature.

I don't think that someone can fully drain all yoki from his\her organism.Thus Miata is the ultimate sensor.Maybe you can drain but you need a very long time...like Rafaela 20-40 years or even more.

Also i think that Alicia yoki output is lower than Riful and Isley but her Yoki Quality and Yoki Control are greater puting her in pair with them regarding the energy she have.Also it seem that they yoki signature as claymores is low since Galatea fail to notice her an Beth, but maybe because the area was flooded by yoki signatures.

tenken627

2008-07-11, 12:57

How do we know they hadn't seen each other for 100 years? If Rigardo challenged Isley to a duel after their awakening and swore loyalty to him after his defeat, he should have been around Isley all this time. :confused:

Well, on page 4 of Extra Scene 3, this is what Isley says (10sigh's translation):

"You sure have changed... I hardly recognize you, who would lunge at the drop of a hat when we were still warriors..."

So Isley was talking about how Rigald has changed since they were warriors (Claymores) and that Isley hardly recognizes him. You wouldn't expect Isley to say something like that if they met and stayed together after they Awakened into ABs. Isley is a loner. He states it himself. And ABs usually tend to be loners as well.

So, if Isley and Rigald were from the first generation of Claymores ever made, which the MiBs started making about 100 years ago, the time when Isley and Rigald actually turned into ABs was probably around that time as well.

After Isley's statement, Rigald says:

"That's because... when we fought, we promised that whoever lost would be obedient to the winner."

Isley:

"We were just messing around before battle... No need to take it this seriously."

So, if Isley and Rigald were battling someone else after their duel, that must mean against the DoDs, which would have happened before they Awakened. They last fought each other before they were ABs.

I'm not sure if it was this particular battle where Isley and Rigald turned into AB or if it was another battle afterwards. They might have been just fighting OEs and not DoDs in this battle.

And Rigald seemed to be excited seeing Isley's Awakened form and strength/speed. I don't think he was used to seeing it or maybe this was the first time he ever saw Isley's AB form.

Ryuken

2008-07-11, 13:03

And Rigald seemed to be excited seeing Isley's Awakened form and strength/speed. I don't think he was used to seeing it or maybe this is the first time he ever saw Isley's AB form.

That could be.:)

NobodyMan

2008-07-11, 13:07

Well, if Isley has been planning something even before he met Priscilla, it would explain why he is letting Raki wander around with her unbothered. Maybe he doesn't need Priscilla for this step in his master plan. He may not play a part at all, but if he does, I wonder what Raki has to do with Isley's plan. Also, does Raki know of Isley's plan. I don't think he does, but maybe he can piece together some clues about it.

On another subject, when Isley dies (which I'm pretty sure he will), I think Raki may have something to do with it, or at least be there to witness it. I for one would think that Raki would be the one to deal the final blow to Isley. I'm not saying he's gonna fight Isley in a one on one battle, because he wouldn't stand a chance, but maybe Isley will be completely exhausted from his battle and ask Raki to finish him off. It would be a pretty good emotional farewell between student and sensei. A good chance for Isley to redeem himself in the end.

This is just wishful thinking of course. :D

SagaraSouske

2008-07-11, 13:36

Well, on page 4 of Extra Scene 3, this is what Isley says (10sigh's translation):

"You sure have changed... I hardly recognize you, who would lunge at the drop of a hat when we were still warriors..."

So Isley was talking about how Rigald has changed since they were warriors (Claymores) and that Isley hardly recognizes him. You wouldn't expect Isley to say something like that if they met and stayed together after they Awakened into ABs. Isley is a loner. He states it himself. And ABs usually tend to be loners as well.

So, if Isley and Rigald were from the first generation of Claymores ever made, which the MiBs started making about 100 years ago, the time when Isley and Rigald actually turned into ABs was probably around that time as well.

After Isley's statement, Rigald says:

"That's because... when we fought, we promised that whoever lost would be obedient to the winner."

Isley:

"We were just messing around before battle... No need to take it this seriously."

So, if Isley and Rigald were battling someone else after their duel, that must mean against the DoDs, which would have happened before they Awakened. They last fought each other before they were ABs.

I'm not sure if it was this particular battle where Isley and Rigald turned into AB or if it was another battle afterwards. They might have been just fighting OEs and not DoDs in this battle.

And Rigald seemed to be excited seeing Isley's Awakened form and strength/speed. I don't think he was used to seeing it or maybe this was the first time he ever saw Isley's AB form.

The way Rigardo is commenting on Isley full awakened form, he is saying from a perspective of seeing them in action before I think.

tenken627

2008-07-11, 13:47

The way Rigardo is commenting on Isley full awakened form, he is saying from a perspective of seeing them in action before I think.

It is hard to tell, but I think so too. I don't think he's seen it often though.

Depending on what happened when they Awakened in battle, Isley and Rigald must have seen each other's AB form if they were sent in the same group/platoon/regiment/whatever during that battle.

But it doesn't seem like they became best friends forever (BFFs) afterwards where AB Isley would let Lion king AB Rigald ride on his back like a pony or anything.

PureYoki

2008-07-11, 14:16

@ tenken627:

I didn't interpret "I hardly recognize you..." the way you did. You may notice a difference in somebody you've known for a long time but may only mention it when the occasion comes, and the occasion is Priscilla.

Although the places where they live may be different, I guess they were seeing each other once in a while. Same applies to other male ABs. What's the point of being obedient if your master can't reach you when he needs you?

And at chapter 62 page 24 the male AB says "Using our awakening as a pretext, he challenged him to a duel." We know that Isley and Rigardo fought after they awakened.

@ NobodyMan:

Even if Isley had a plan before met Priscilla, it sure was not to go south and attack Luciela because he knew Riful would finish him afterwards. And if Isley had another plan, what was he waiting for all these years, what changed his mind? In Chapter 45 Page 27 Riful said that Isley started to widen his territory after he met that girl(Priscilla). So unless it was a huge coincidence, Priscilla was the reason that prompted Isley into action, the same Priscilla whom he released due to reasons unknown to us. :confused:

NobodyMan

2008-07-11, 14:34

@PureYoki: That's true, it was only after he met Priscilla that he began to widen his territory and get rid of threats to Priscilla. What I think is that Isley was planning something, but the reason he sat dormant for so long was because he didn't have the means to do it. Priscilla is that means and with her by his side, he could finally set his plan into motion. But I have no proof of this, and may be proven wrong down the line.

Another thought is that Isley actually does not have a plan at all and just went south because Priscilla wanted to. But Luciella stood in the way of that and if he went to the south, both Luciella and Riful would make moves to stop him. So, he amasses a small AB army, with Rigardo as the commander, sends them to crush Pieta, to which the Org responds by sending 24 claymores as a roadblock (we all know how that ended), and from there sends them east and west to distract both Riful and the Org while he duels with Luciella. He knew that most if not all of the ABs he sent would perish and that was his way of severing all of his past ties to the North. Raki is just a bonus and since he makes Priscilla happy, then he's fine with him, and actually likes him a bit. And now he just wants to live the peaceful life of a hermit for the rest of his days. This, however, is most likely not true and is more wishful thinking on my part, feel free to disregard it if you like. :D

I don't know the reason Isley let Priscilla wander around with Raki, but I have a feeling that will be explained sooner or later. :)

Ryuken

2008-07-11, 14:41

The way Rigardo is commenting on Isley full awakened form, he is saying from a perspective of seeing them in action before I think.

He must at least had some idea about it.:)

PureYoki

2008-07-11, 15:11

What I think is that Isley was planning something, but the reason he sat dormant for so long was because he didn't have the means to do it. Priscilla is that means and with her by his side, he could finally set his plan into motion.

I agree, Isley thought of Priscilla as an opportunity that could help him rule the continent. But at some point something happened that completely ruined his plans. Riful was surprised that he and Priscilla didn't seize the continent despite having the power. He was somehow forced to let go of Priscilla, it will be a shame if such a character was wasted off-screen.

chibamonster

2008-07-11, 15:17

Even if there were Claymores from previous generations who partially awakened, and even if they talked, how many Claymores live from one generation to the next? Claymores from Clare's graduating class knew that she had Teresa in her, but no ones knows about it now except Irene and Rubel who did not seem to be talking to anyone about it. Many from Raphaela's generation would have known she was #2 and her sister was #1, but even Miria did not know that when she mentioned the top 5. If the org wanted partially awakened Claymores and had been trying hard to produce them, why were they killing them off? There certainly could be reasons behind it, just like they kill off AB's & Claymores who are not useful to them now.

I also think Rigardo had seen Isley's awakened form before but not very often. I mean how often would Isley need to transform? Against Priscilla, who had just destroyed Rigardo, he just transformed his arm and shot at her from a distance. He was surprised she caught them and went for the full AB monte. Against Luciella they initially agreed not to transform.

As for Isley's goals, the MiB's recognize that he is as cunning as ever. He is definitely doing it for a purpose. They speculate that he may even know about Alicia. Without knowing Isley's history in the organization, and just how much he knows of the outside world, it is hard to tell what he has been up to and why. Coming from the generation of Males and being stuck on the island, he might not know about the outside world. Then again, maybe he does. Really what do Abyssals want? Eat, sleep and eat again? Riful thought this was rather boring. Could Isley be doing this just because? I think not, but it is a possibility.

tenken627

2008-07-11, 15:20

Well, once in a while in AB terms can be decades since they view time with a different perspective.

@ tenken627:
And at chapter 62 page 24 the male AB says "Using our awakening as a pretext, he challenged him to a duel." We know that Isley and Rigardo fought after they awakened.

I forgot about this part. So, was the duel for obedience before or after they Awakened?

Isley did say that they made the bet when they fought before a battle. I figure that if they dueled and then battled together, it would be when they were Claymores.

Hmmmm. If they battled together against someone else after they Awakened, who would it be against? More DoDs? Other ABs?

PureYoki

2008-07-11, 15:29

Even if there were Claymores from previous generations who partially awakened, and even if they talked, how many Claymores live from one generation to the next?

Well, they don't die from aging so there may be quite a lot of them around. Yagi didn't show them to us until now but I expect to see some of them in the future.

If the org wanted partially awakened Claymores and had been trying hard to produce them, why were they killing them off?

Are we sure they were trying to kill them off? Maybe the org. was testing the test subjects.

babuji

2008-07-11, 15:35

Well, they don't die from aging so there may be quite a lot of them around. Yagi didn't show them to us until now but I expect to see some of them in the future.

Are we sure they were trying to kill them off? Maybe the org. was testing the test subjects.

Actually, they do kill a few disobedient claymore since they can be a danger to the org. On top of that claymores who awaken can't be controlled unless they are twins so the org kills them off.

chibamonster

2008-07-11, 15:51

Claymores may not die from aging, but very few get to enjoy that. If they leave the organization they are hunted down and killed. And if they are with the organization eventually they awaken or die (as far as we know) either from black cards or from missions. Galatea and Irene escaped the organization in times when the organization was really struggling. Irene let on that she was dead. Galatea escaped hunters (whom they did send) because she could out sense them. Raphaela is a very unique case as she was stripped of her number (rare in and of itself) and kicked out of the organization, though they found her and recruited her back. She now is away from the organization again, but we do not know where she is or what she is doing. Maybe there will be some revelation that truly strong Claymores get sent to the main land, but as of now just speculation.

I do not think there are many claymores around from previous generations. Look at the work that had to be put in to get the ghosts out of the organization. Not fun. I would be fine with seeing living Claymores from times past, especially a male Claymore at some point, but at the moment that does not seem to be how the organization operates. Things could change in the future though.

PureYoki

2008-07-11, 16:01

I forgot about this part. So, was the duel for obedience before or after they Awakened?

After they awakened because the male AB said Rigardo challenged Isley to a duel using their awakening as a pretext.

Hmmmm. If they battled together against someone else after they Awakened, who would it be against? More DoDs? Other ABs?

It seems they already knew they would battle even before the duel, maybe even before they awakened. It was probably an unavoidable battle because nobody could force them to fight DODs after they awakened. It might a battle against other males for the control of a territory.

Actually, they do kill a few disobedient claymore since they can be a danger to the org. On top of that claymores who awaken can't be controlled unless they are twins so the org kills them off.

I mean, do we have any proof that the org. kills claymores just because they are partially-awakened? Well, they sure don't want disobedient claymores but this is a different issue.

babuji

2008-07-11, 16:06

I mean, do we have any proof that the org. kills claymores just because they are partially-awakened? Well, they sure don't want disobedient claymores but this is a different issue.

Well, it is quite clear that they sent claymores who were partially awaken to suicide missions. On top of that they will be given misleading info about the mission and one example was when Miria and her gang when to hunt for the male AB.

Ryuken

2008-07-11, 16:13

Actually, they do kill a few disobedient claymore since they can be a danger to the org. On top of that claymores who awaken can't be controlled unless they are twins so the org kills them off.

Problem children was it, the org called them. The partially awakened lot.:)

PureYoki

2008-07-11, 16:16

Well, it is quite clear that they sent claymores who were partially awaken to suicide missions. On top of that they will be given misleading info about the mission and one example was when Miria and her gang when to hunt for the male AB.

Hmm, if the organization was testing the power level of such claymores, it's reasonable that they would send them against tough opponents. Why would they want to kill one of a kind Clare, it's against their very purpose.

chibamonster

2008-07-11, 16:22

@PureYoki: You know the MiB's purpose? Please share!

Ryuken

2008-07-11, 16:22

Hmm, if the organization was testing the power level of such claymores, it's reasonable that they would send them against tough opponents. Why would they want to kill one of a kind Clare, it's against their very purpose.

I think they didn't see much of a development in Clare first and regarded her as a failed experiment and wanted to get rid of her.:)

chibamonster

2008-07-11, 16:27

For Clare I think it is a bit different. She was not originally on the hit squad. Rubel put her on it after a conversation where she was talking about killing Priscilla. He mentions that the AB has already killed a warrior of average strength. He gave the mission to her as a chance to discover her own strength. And strangely enough, she is the only reason the Slashers survived even with their partial awakening. While the plan may have been to get rid of her all along, Clare let her interest in hunting Priscilla out and killing a lower AB would give her some concept of what she had to face in the future. I think Rubel is playing his own game. But still, in the end the team should have been eliminated. Unless Rubel knew something about Clare that others did not...

Ryuken

2008-07-11, 16:33

PureYoki

2008-07-11, 16:38

@PureYoki: You know the MiB's purpose? Please share!

Like everybody else I know nothing, I can only speculate. I brought up the subject because I think it's one of the possibilities although unlikely.

I think a claymore can always disappear to somewhere as far as possible from towns and try to suppress her yoki. Even with an exceptional talent like Galatea, it'll be impractical to search the whole land.

We know Jean came back from full awakening. Imagine that there are claymores who can fight at 90% without awakening or there are claymores who can fully awaken and come back after their work is done (maybe with help of a yoki manipulator). Isn't it what the org. is looking for?

And one more thing, this six-armed AB duel was important for the organization for some reason, and they used Galatea to follow it. (It confirms my suspicions.) If the organization already knew they would die, why would they bother?

irvinethearcher

2008-07-11, 16:57

I mean, do we have any proof that the org. kills claymores just because they are partially-awakened? Well, they sure don't want disobedient claymores but this is a different issue.

There are many contradictory elements in this case, i don't mean your post, but i mean the entire half - awakened - suicide - mission case.
It is one of the most important points for a deeper claymore understanding to solve this riddle.

We know so far:
-Miria, Helen, Deneve, Clare are problem children
-Miria, Helen, Deneve, Clare are half awaken(normally i would say that the org knew about the half awakening because the coincidence is to significant than to be ignored)
-We know the reactions from ermita and galatea:
Gal: What would be so important about the fate of four warriors hunting an AB?
Ermita: Think of it as a concern of a parent for a child.
Memorize their auras, perhaps someday you have tor cross swords with them.
Gal: One of the four has awakened. It appears she went beyond her limit and awakened of her
own will, but why?
...
Ermita: Hey whats wrong did something else happen?
Gal: Mistaken about the awakening?
Ermita: You're wrong? That's unusual.
Gal. : As i said, we're to far....

My conclusion:
The org mus have known about the half awakening and they must have an special interest in observing their fight. Analyse their special skills ...
Therefore half awakening must be a phenomenon known by the org.
It wasn't a suicide mission perhaps it was a test in which ermita and galatea should observe half awakening claymores in a fight against a strong opponent.
So they put them all together to see what they could do from a great distance. It is logistically easier to observe all ha - claymores at once IMO.
But why not go near? Send raffaella 4 example. So the org would know that helen could use limb extension without much yoki...

By the way: In the databooks must be something mentioned about the hawakening. God damn it we need those books translated.

KillerYomaFromSpace

2008-07-11, 17:08

PureYoki

2008-07-11, 17:12

SagaraSouske

2008-07-11, 18:24

By the way: In the databooks must be something mentioned about the hawakening. God damn it we need those books translated.

Databook 3 did talk about half awakening. But didn't reveal anything new. It did mentioned fab4 and Jeanne are suspected to be half-awakened and speculated that the nature of their youki is different. They also mentioned stuff we already know like the normal limit is no longer clearly defined for them, they can go over and come back, they have more combat power and have pang of hunger at times.

They also speculated that partial-awakened is a awakening process being stopped before it was completed.

Databook 3 also said that the decision to send all the suspected half awaken to the north to die was probably rushed. Now that Org have created the strongest warrior Alicia, perhaps in the future, when another such suspect appears, the Org will do something different.

Ryuken

2008-07-11, 20:40

Databook 3 also said that the decision to send all the suspected half awaken to the north to die was probably rushed. Now that Org have created the strongest warrior Alicia, perhaps in the future, when another such suspect appears, the Org will do something different.

Now they come to their senses.:)

williamaugustus

2008-07-11, 20:47

this is really off topic. actually it is not even about claymore.

i am going to miss you guys.:( i am going camping tomorrow and will be gone for a week. with no computer.:eek:
dont post to much.

as for claymore. most of the MiBs are screwy in the head. they have no clue what they are doing. if they were rushed into killing people off then it was poor planning. they are going to fall apart soon.

Enara

2008-07-11, 20:56

Ryuken

2008-07-11, 20:59

NobodyMan

2008-07-11, 21:15

Stream

2008-07-11, 22:23

this is really off topic. actually it is not even about claymore.

i am going to miss you guys.:( i am going camping tomorrow and will be gone for a week. with no computer.:eek:
Have fun!

I recommend bringing a flashlight, a deck of cards, and no manga. I don't think there's ever been a single night I didn't stay up late when I went camping.

clarakiss~

2008-07-12, 00:14

Zsych

2008-07-12, 00:30

I think its also possible that with the Claymores the MiB aren't necessarily trying to achieve ABs. If they can create super-Claymores who can exterminate the DoD, and retain their sanity that's fine. Of course, they want controllable ABs, but they probably don't want their regular Claymore population that isn't intended for that specific purpose to become uncontrollable monsters that cause them pain.

Torri_fay_torren@hot

2008-07-12, 03:16

My conclusion:
The org mus have known about the half awakening and they must have an special interest in observing their fight. Analyse their special skills ...
Therefore half awakening must be a phenomenon known by the org.
It wasn't a suicide mission perhaps it was a test in which ermita and galatea should observe half awakening claymores in a fight against a strong opponent.
So they put them all together to see what they could do from a great distance. It is logistically easier to observe all ha - claymores at once IMO.
But why not go near? Send raffaella 4 example. So the org would know that helen could use limb extension without much yoki...

I still think think the org was trying to kill them. They were all trouble makers, the org wouldn't have wanted such powerful Claymores who were disobedient. And if they were going to get rid of them then why not (as you said) analyse there abilities before there killed?

This is unrelated to the rest of irvines post

And why not kill them? This is an ongoing expierament after all. Mybe there have been othe half awakened. I don't think that everybody would learn about it. Clare, Helen and Deneva didn't even understand the significance of their own partial awakenings. We just got to remeber that it's all a test and even if there a succesiful expierament they can still be replaced just like they were replacing Galatea

chibamonster

2008-07-12, 05:06

Miria was convinced that they had been sent to die when she sensed the power of the AB they had been put up against. She knew that her group was not strong enough, even after seeing their special attacks, to defeat the AB. When the AB gives his little, "Let's have you taste some despair" threat, Miria's response is not to organize the team and fight him. Her response is that she tells the Claymores to run. The only person the organization could be testing would be Clare, and I think it is pretty clear from their conversation that Rubel is the one who added her to the list.

Their goal with Clare's project was to get some of Teresa's power out of her. Before her partial awakening Clare had not manifested much of Teresa's power nor ability. She certainly did not demonstrate the ability to dodge her opponents and sense their attacks with just her Teresa-like youki sense. That showed up after she partially awakened, and after her little dream of Teresa. Before that she fights with tricks, and almost street smarts. After she learns to youki sense she can dodge attacks from AB's and take them down. Well, if she can manage the finishing blow.

If anything it seems the MiB's were trying to kill the partially awakened Claymores. I am not sure how much Rubel knew about Clare's awakening, but he threw her into the mix with the intention of having her test her limits. Clare certainly did and got much much better after that, as can be seen in both Raki and Rubel's comments to her at the beginning of the Endless Gravestone's arc. Clare even mentions that something has changed. Her confidence in her new ability which will allow her to "beat them no matter how many there are" is vastly different from her approach of "if I fail and die you have no need to pay". Clare starting her sales pitch with the possibility of her death, especially considering how weak she was compared to others (pathetic as Deneve and Helen said), means it must have been a real possibility in her mind.

If the organization had the intention of just testing the Fab 4 they certainly were cautious. The instruction given to Galatea is that she should memorize their auras as she might have to fight (ie kill) them some day. Galatea knows that eventually she may have to hunt them down... if any of them should live long enough. I do not know how much Galatea understands about the situation, as she had never seen partial awakening before, but she predicts a long and thorny road ahead of the fab 4. While Galatea does not know about the partial awakening, apparently she does understand the organizations take on "discipline".

So I do not think it was just a test of the Claymores. If it is a test it is created specifically for Clare and the same could be said about Ophelia and Pieta (both of which involved assignments from Rubel himself). The AB claims to have killed warriors before, and Rubel confirms he has killed a warrior of average strength at least. The AB has secrets, and information, though his current info seems choppy at best. He has to piece things together to figure out Miria's ability, remembers a nickname he heard, and then estimate her rank. He still knew too much about the current generation for someone who has been separated from the organization for the better part of a century. Still sketchy stuff.

PureYoki

2008-07-12, 07:05

Miria thought that they were sent to their death because they were problem cases. (And apparently she was wrong about not being strong enough because they managed to kill the AB.) When did MIB tell Galatea to memorize their auras: After Galatea said that they were restless. We still don't know if partial-awakening is a reason for disposal but it's certain disobedience is.

Does the org. watch every suicide mission? No. Does the org. watch every move of Clare? No. But they watched this fight for some reason. Considering that all of them were partially-awakened claymores, I think we can make an educated guess. :)

chibamonster

2008-07-12, 08:36

You will also notice that the first question Miria asks is not if they are problem cases. The absolute first thing that comes to Miria's mind is that she needs them to be completely honest and answer if they have ever come close to awakening. If awakening were not a big deal, why would she ask that first and point blank like that? The problem question is to clarify their situation. Miria knows something about the organization and obviously the first thing she put together, maybe even from the time she realized that the AB knew something she didn't, was that all of them were partially awakened.

The problem cases adds to it, but really their problems are not that bad, especially compared to the few other claymores we have met. Miria's is the only dangerous one to the org, and she is as diligent as can be as a cover. Clare's problem is what, she goes gung ho on her missions, and jumps in early? Why kill her? With her record she will kill herself! Deneve causes trouble with other Claymores? How often is she around other claymores? She's only been on 2 AB hunts! Helen's never actually killed a human which is much better than can be said about Ophelia. Miria asks them if they have awakened because that is most important. She demands an honest answer to her first question because it is immensely important for all of them. The problem question is to get a better handle on their status. They form a group of partially awakened Claymores in Pieta. You don't see them gathering all the disobedient people or people with attitudes. They are special. And while it might just be chance that there are 4 partially awakened claymores on a hunt I think if disobedience or attitude were an issue Undine would be there instead of Deneve.

I do not think Miria was wrong about them being powerful enough to kill the AB. They got destroyed. It would have been better for them to have run, although the AB was obviously fast enough to get all of them but Miria. They won because Clare had an ability that nullified the power difference. It actually used that power against the AB. And we had never seen Clare use it before. So in reality they should have lost by any measurement given. But as the MiB's mention when Clare disappears, "The fact that number 47 is an unknown element has never changed."

Does the org watch every suicide mission? Well we have 2 to chose from (maybe 3); Slashers and Pieta. Galatea watched the slashers for the MiB's and for Pieta Galatea mentioned that Raphaela would be waiting close by to kill any deserters. Raphaela was also wandering around Ophelia and Clare's battle ground for some reason, and I do not think it was just because she picked up on Irene's youki trail. Raph chased down Irene and never got close to Clare (nor Awakened Ophelia) until after Galatea had blown her mission. For Jeans group who went against Duff and Riful, there was Alicia and Galatea who showed up. Alicia just monitored (is it possible Jean's group was sent in to try to get a full reading of Riful?). I think the organization monitors a whole lot of stuff :D. The org almost does seem to watch most of Clares moves and at least manage most the suicide missions by having people there just in case... something...

Enara

2008-07-12, 09:29

I still think think the org was trying to kill them.

I thought so to but the more I think about it I start thinking that it was a test. To see there power.

PureYoki

2008-07-12, 09:30

Miria said that her explanation was just a speculation, she had doubts too. Let's examine all the possibilities:

1) It was a suicide mission, and they were sent because they were partially-awakened.

The obvious result of this theory is that the org. wants to dispatch partially-awakened claymores. But why? They have better yoki quality and they don't awaken as easily as regular claymores. The org. wants more powerful soldiers, doesn't they?

2) It was a suicide mission, and they were sent because they were disobedient.

The org. naturally wants obedient warriors and doesn't tolerate any act of disobedience to the point that they send the warrior to her death. Only problem with this theory is the huge coincidence of four partially-awakened warriors in the same group.

3) It was a test mission, and they were sent because they were partially-awakened.

It makes sense, they even monitored the result of the fight with their eye. If it was a suicide mission and the org. was monitoring every suicide mission, Galatea, being the eye, would know why she was there and wouldn't be so surprised.

4) It was a test mission, and they were sent because they were disobedient.

Lol, this is clearly not the case. Test mission for what?

The situation in Pieta was a little different. Well, it was a suicide mission but the claymores were there just to buy some time until Alicia was completed. Almost all the powerful soldiers were there with the exception of Galatea and Rafaela who had other duties.

If the organization has a policy of eliminating half-awakeneds, they should have a good reason which is unexplainable with our current knowledge.

irvinethearcher

2008-07-12, 10:35

Databook 3 did talk about half awakening. But didn't reveal anything new. It did mentioned fab4 and Jeanne are suspected to be half-awakened and speculated that the nature of their youki is different. They also mentioned stuff we already know like the normal limit is no longer clearly defined for them, they can go over and come back, they have more combat power and have pang of hunger at times.

They also speculated that partial-awakened is a awakening process being stopped before it was completed.

Databook 3 also said that the decision to send all the suspected half awaken to the north to die was probably rushed. Now that Org have created the strongest warrior Alicia, perhaps in the future, when another such suspect appears, the Org will do something different.

I knew that in the databooks something important was revealed. The org didn't feared the half - awakened Claymores or wanted them to kill at all costs. They wanted only to test their combat abillities in xtreme situations but if the claymores got killed in those situations the org doesn't care. For some reason they wanted them not to know that they were observed, so they sent galatea.
But why they sent clare on a mission with ophelia? They must have known that ophelia will go nuts if she smells clare and that clare couldn't win. So at the end they wanted to kill her though.
Another idea:
The org wanted to focuss on the limit breaking abillities of the ha-claymores. So they gave them a tasks which should push them to their limits.
As the scientists they are they probably try to research how often they can do it or in which situations they can do it or what advantages(for example super fast regneration and access to hidden yoki reserves) they have from the limit breaking.

Ryuken

2008-07-12, 12:57

I knew that in the databooks something important was revealed. The org didn't feared the half - awakened Claymores or wanted them to kill at all costs. They wanted only to test their combat abillities in xtreme situations but if the claymores got killed in those situations the org doesn't care. For some reason they wanted them not to know that they were observed, so they sent galatea.
But why they sent clare on a mission with ophelia? They must have known that ophelia will go nuts if she smells clare and that clare couldn't win. So at the end they wanted to kill her though.
Another idea:
The org wanted to focuss on the limit breaking abillities of the ha-claymores. So they gave them a tasks which should push them to their limits.
As the scientists they are they probably try to research how often they can do it or in which situations they can do it or what advantages(for example super fast regneration and access to hidden yoki reserves) they have from the limit breaking.

So they wanted to know everyones abilities to the fullest. To know what they were capable of.

irvinethearcher

2008-07-12, 13:32

Torri_fay_torren@hot

2008-07-12, 17:07

I've read the slashers arc again. The paburo AB knew something. He knew exactly the abilities of miria and her nick name. IMO he was employed by the org to fight against special claymores. And it isn't normal to observe every hunt by the eye. Perhaps they wanted to use the opportunity to analyse their abillties before they got killed. Their life doesn't count that much because they were all troublemaker.

I agree. Sure the ORG want's solders but they don't actually have to use these partial awakened Claymores. Maybe they just want to see the differn't powers of the partial awakened. There constently working and trying to improve upon there expiraments. Maybe the ORG only want's a super powerful obediant Claymore/AB. I mean any time they have had a really strong Claymore there has always been problems. IE Teresa, Piscilla,Lucilia, Raphalia,Riful,Miata, I mean they all either Awaken or they go AWOL. Disobediant partially awakend ones is not a good thing .They only got it half right so onwards with the expirament!

Ermeti-Let's do a final analysis of group c, class 96, expirqment 104's abilities and then start over with project partial completes.
Rubal- Hay Erm do you think I can add someone to the list?
Ermeti-Sure why not.
(The Battle)
Ermeti- But wait they survied. Intersting, let's study them some more!

Anotheer thought. They were almost done with Alice so that makes the Fab 4 even less valuable

tunjee01

2008-07-13, 01:45

Think about this logically.
Current numbers 3-5 suck. Painfully so.
So... Miss No. 6... There is an old expression - among the blind, a one eyed man is king.

Our Goddess Galatea detected Riful when Clare did not, from outside. This girl, while she does clue in a lot faster than Audrey or Rachel, has Ruful and Pricilla on her by the time she notices. She may be better than the average Claymore, but I wouldn't even put her at Miria level, much less a Tabitha, and definitely not post blindness Galatea's. Best we can say for Rune is that she's good enough for Riful's purposes (she passes). There is no way Galatea would not notice Pricilla from miles away.

So why didn't she say anything? Simple - what's there to say?

Galatea: "About a year ago a really powerful AB came and went"
Miria: "Who was it?"
Galatea: "Dunno - didn't want to get near it"
Clare: "Where did it go?"
Galatea: "Dunno - wasn't dumb enough to follow it"
Helen: "What it it want?"
Galatea: "No idea - just came and left shortly afterwards"
Deneve: "So what are we supposed to do about it?"
Galatea: "Nothing - just FYI"
Yuma: "So why are you telling us this?"
Galatea: "No reason"

... yeah ... great way to introduce yourself to the team.

--
(Galatea's tongue - I could go for death like that...)

I love galatea but a lot of people have been either overating galatea or underating lune. When galatea discovered riful's yoki, riful was in a stationary point. How are we sure that if riful had been moving, galatea would detect the yoki far before riful reached her. Dont forget riful is extraordinarily fast. I believe almost the same thing would have happened to galatea before the time skip.

Cyclone

2008-07-13, 02:58

I love galatea but a lot of people have been either overating galatea or underating lune. When galatea discovered riful's yoki, riful was in a stationary point. How are we sure that if riful had been moving, galatea would detect the yoki far before riful reached her. Dont forget riful is extraordinarily fast. I believe almost the same thing would have happened to galatea before the time skip.

Hmm... what's the best way to answer?
Well having started the Galatea fan club, I suppose I'm not 100% impartial, but I'll summerize as objectively I can.

Galatea was the #3 of a generation that included Ophelia, Raphaela, Miria, Flora, and Jean. With the possible/probable exception of Raphaela, she was better than all of them. Lune is #6, in a relatively weaker (IMHO) generation behind Audrey (3), Rachel (5) and a mentally unstable child called Miata(4). There is no doubt in my mind that Galatea is superior in abilities to Lune. Judging by Galatea's performance in the Slasher's Arc, at the distance Rune was at (it didn't take her hours to get there), not only would she exactly what happened to the youma Raki killed, but would know what it was feeling during the fight and would know exactly into how many pieces it was chopped up into.

Galatea sensed Riful in the basement in the Witch's Maw Arc before she ever set foot in the place. Riful was hiding her Aura there too. Galatea was also the only Claymore at the end without a shocked expression on her face as Riful turned into a ball of tentacles and disappeared (leading me to believe that of the 3, she could track her).

Lune, does not detect Pricilla until WELL AFTER after Pricilla touches her (telling her to "scram before you get hurt" - lol). That is a blunder I cannot imagine Galatea ever making. Similarly Lune does not detect Riful until after it's too late. She does detect Duff, but considering Duff is herding her to Riful (thus not keeping his youki supressed), that in and of itself is not the greatest of accomplishments. This is a pattern of failure that Galatea never exhibits.

The ghosts - consisting of 7 warriors who ranked well below Galatea and were not 'eyes' for the organization - detected Riful as she moved towards Audrey and Rachel from quite a distance away and with much more heads up warning than Lune did.

If I had to guess, I'd put Lune's yoki abilities somewhere below Tabitha's present abilities, and above Clare's in the Witch's Maw Arc (but probably below present day Clare's and Miria's). In another words, not a bad youki sensing Claymore, but let's be real here: Galatea outclasses her in every way.
(Galatea's present sensing abilities are, of course, axiomatically, better than anyones, and not subject to debate or discussion.;) )

Would Galatea lose to Riful? Yes. But Riful would be chasing her for a long time as Galatea was running away. Luckily though, that didn't happen, Galatea is safe, and thankfully Lune became Riful's victim instead.

PureYoki

2008-07-13, 03:39

chibamonster

2008-07-13, 04:02

Miata needs no youki to smell out her opponents :D. I actually wrote something about that way back when we didn't know who Miata was after because she only says, "the smell of a very strong Claymore". And hey, I found it! I wrote it more than a year ago... scary. :uhoh:

and how will miata find galatia?

MIB: Find this scent and you will find Galatia.
Miata: sniff sniff ok
Clarice: sniff WHOAH! That's just a bottle of Giorgio Armani Acqua di Gio perfume for women! -cough- -cough- oh... it's in my eyes! -cry- -sneeze- I can't see! I can't feel any youki! -cough- I'm dying...
MIB: Galatia said if she couldn't find this perfume she would awaken immediately out of spite and kill us all. Fortunately for us we are so twisted and evil we have no sense of smell... although she is the only claymore to have been proposed to by an awakened being. It actually happened several times. Strange...
Miata: mama?

Really we do not know as we were never told if Miata had Galatea's scent or not. We had 5 months of waiting to see who was in that town (extra chapters hurt so much). Miata only said a strong Claymore. Do you have any idea how many crazy ideas we came up with during those 5 months of waiting? If Miata was just smelling a strong claymore we had an entire list with reasons this and speculations that...

While I think the organization may have been short handed for their lower ranks, I think they are in better shape than they have ever been. They have an Abyssal, and apparently a psycho little girl who has the ability to surpass her, and they are a serious part of the power balance. Not only that, they are actively hunting and killing AB's which while it might diminish their number it will also put them higher on the charts for power. 30+ dead AB's in the last 7 years? Not bad. Sure it took up Clare's generation to do it, but overall the org may be cleaning up the mess they made.

I also think the top Claymores are quite formidable. Rachel's attack winds up much faster than Jeans ever did and seems to pack just as much punch. Not only that, but Rachel and Audrey work together, one managing defense and the other offense, covering for each others weaknesses. The ghosts are not the only ones with team work now. After realizing that Audrey is not extremely gifted with youki sensing and also manages her soft sword with her eyes closed I wonder if cloaked Claymores really will have much advantage against her. What is it with number 3's and not using their eyes? Not to mention that I think the MiB's know how to fight...

But all that being said I really do not know what is going to happen in the next little while. Clare will run into Raki. We will see what happened to Isley. Raphaela will pop up and so on, but as for story points I think it is about time we see what the organization is really up to. What Isley is really up to. What Riful's secret is. I think a war worse than the one that involved the battle of Pieta is coming.

PureYoki

2008-07-13, 05:15

Chiba, you definitely are gifted in story writing. Have you ever applied to Yagi for a job? :D

I think it's not pure coincidence that the strong warrior that Miata was talking about turned out to be Galatea, the claymore she was looking for. My best guess is that the organization was keeping Galatea's old garments. (Don't ask how they knew they would need them someday. Maybe one of the MIBs had a crush on Galatea and kept her underwear.) :D

Well, the organization has an abyssal but it has a very big weakness, her sister. Even if we assume other warriors can somehow defend Beth in a battle, we still don't know if Beth can bear the mental stress in case Alicia faces a very strong opponent. The org. is also no longer in possession of their prodigy Miata and with Renee gone, it seems the future is not bright for them.

Rachel's attack winds up much faster than Jean's but it doesn't last that long and she needs a support to initiate the attack. And Jean was #9 whereas Rachel is #5. IMO Audrey is weaker than Galatea, Ophelia, maybe even (old) Miria. I think she could offer no resistance against Dauf whom Galatea managed to create lots of trouble. Rachel and Audrey also aren't that smart, they knew they were against AO Riful and yet they thought they could handle her. :D

I agree it's about time for an epic war, I just don't see the sides. Priscilla won't attack anybody unless Raki is bullied, G7 decided to spend some time in Rabona and they are reluctant to kill fellow claymores, whereabouts of Isley is unknown, Riful captured Renee only to defend herself against Isley, the org. won't attack G7 because they can't afford to lose more power and they can't risk Alicia since G7 knows her Achilles heel. Where we are headed to is a complete mystery.

babuji

2008-07-13, 07:51

KillerYomaFromSpace

2008-07-13, 08:05

PureYoki

2008-07-13, 08:13

That is the problem there......The org have the fear that if the claymores who are partially awaken gains an incredible amount of str and learn too much of the org's intention which will lead them forming groups of rouge partially awaken claymores and take on the org...which is happening now.

If they immediately kill of the claymores, they will have less problems in the future. If they were to test thier powers, they would have done it in thier labs like what they are doing with the twins...

Ok, but my point was that partially-awakened claymores are harmless as long as they don't question the authority and in fact they are the kind of claymores that the org. is looking for. They are powerful enough to destroy most ABs and they're much more controllable than ABs.

If the org. assumes every powerful claymore will rebel against them one day, what exactly are they trying to achieve? Why are they doing these experiments? Do they think partially-awakened claymores are a greater danger than ABs? I don't understand how a partially-awakened claymore is worse than an ordinary claymore. If they have a tendency to disobey orders, they'll do it anyway, I don't see the relation between half-awakening and being rebellious.

babuji

2008-07-13, 08:13

I don't get your logic here... you mean that in order to avoid them making rouge groups, they group them themselves?

No, I mean if the org didn't kill them off, those partially awaken claymores will form groups after they leave the org for thier safety and might learn too much of the org's evil intention. This in turn will lead the claymores for a coup.

On top of that partially awaken claymores who are disobedient are considered a danger to the organization.

My point is to prove that they didn't have the intention to test those partially awaken claymores but rather they just sent the claymores on a suicide mission again and again until they got killed.

They could have done the test in the lab like they have done with the twins if they really want ot treasure those claymores but unfortunately that was not the case.

babuji

2008-07-13, 08:20

Ok, but my point was that partially-awakened claymores are harmless as long as they don't question the authority and in fact they are the kind of claymores that the org. is looking for. They are powerful enough to destroy most ABs and they're much more controllable than ABs.

If the org. assumes every powerful claymore will rebel against them one day, what exactly are they trying to achieve? Why are they doing these experiments? Do they think partially-awakened claymores are a greater danger than ABs? I don't understand how a partially-awakened claymore is worse than an ordinary claymore. If they have a tendency to disobey orders, they'll do it anyway, I don't see the relation between half-awakening and being rebellious.

Actually there is a relation to it......When those claymores are half awaken, they will start to question thier own identity and that of the awaken comrades. This will lead to the exposure of the org's secret and the claymores who are partially awaken will leave the org and form groups powerful enough to oppose the org openly. That is the main reason because the org are trying to prevent this from happening.

KillerYomaFromSpace

2008-07-13, 08:39

Actually there is a relation to it......When those claymores are half awaken, they will start to question thier own identity and that of the awaken comrades. This will lead to the exposure of the org's secret and the claymores who are partially awaken will leave the org and form groups powerful enough to oppose the org openly. That is the main reason because the org are trying to prevent this from happening.

they didn't even know that they were half awakened until the org grouped them together and were enlightened by Miria

If they really wanted them dead they could have sent them one by one or send an assassing like Raphaela

babuji

2008-07-13, 08:44

they didn't even know that they were half awakened until the org grouped them together and were enlightened by Miria

If they really wanted them dead thay could hav3e sent then one by one or send an assassing like Raphaela

That would make things worst actually......If they were to escape from raphaela....rumours will spread that the org sents assasin to kill off other claymores.......and yeah, if there are a couple of claymores as smart as miria who was also partially awaken, they will have a big trouble...so killing them off will be the best option.

PureYoki

2008-07-13, 08:46

Actually there is a relation to it......When those claymores are half awaken, they will start to question thier own identity and that of the awaken comrades. This will lead to the exposure of the org's secret and the claymores who are partially awaken will leave the org and form groups powerful enough to oppose the org openly. That is the main reason because the org are trying to prevent this from happening.

You're talking about Miria. Miria decided to take down the org. after the Hilda incident and Ophelia's obnoxious behaviours. Her anger triggered her awakening, not the other way around. The exposure of the org.'s secret has nothing to do with half-awakening, it's the revenge of a pissed off girl who has lost a great friend.

babuji

2008-07-13, 08:50

You're talking about Miria. Miria decided to take down the org. after the Hilda incident and Ophelia's obnoxious behaviours. Her anger triggered her awakening, not the other way around. The exposure of the org.'s secret has nothing to do with half-awakening, it's the revenge of a pissed off girl who has lost a great friend.

But there are others who are partially awaken due to combat, the org will always blacklist those claymores anyway.....

PureYoki

2008-07-13, 08:58

But there are others who are partially awaken due to combat, the org will always blacklist those claymores anyway.....

If there were no Miria and thus no rebellion against the org., would there be a reason to kill off those partially-awakened claymores?

Do you say half-awakening not only changes their strength but also their character?

babuji

2008-07-13, 09:02

If there were no Miria and thus no rebellion against the org., would there be a reason to kill off those partially-awakened claymores?

Do you say half-awakening not only changes their strength but also their character?

Well, there would be others who will question the authorities beside miria in the future. And no, the partial awakening only changes thier str..but as far as for characteristic, they do not change as far as I know.

However, this will lead they to questioning themselves regardless of the situation and they will indirectly dig for more info which will lead to thier name being blacklisted and labelled as disobedient.

For example even if there is no miria, there is still galatea who question the authorities....she didn't get punish due to her abilities and high rank but in the end, they sent her on to a suicide mission in rabona.

Korinov

2008-07-13, 09:16

For example even if there is no miria, there is still galatea who question the authorities....she didn't get punish due to her abilities and high rank but in the end, they sent her on to a suicide mission in rabona.

¿? I thought Galatea was never sent to Rabona, she simply abandoned the Org and hided there. When she discovered Agatha was hiding in the holy city too, she got her eyes off to live undercovered until the Org send someone to kill her, exactly what happened after.

Galatea's problem was that she expected the Org to send a bigger group of Claymores, probably with at least two single digits, instead a completely useless nº 47 and a psycho little nº 4.

Prado: Using several pieces of information and some clues, we've narrowed down her location.

http://www.onemanga.com/Claymore/73/04/

PureYoki

2008-07-13, 09:17

However, this will lead they to questioning themselves regardless of the situation and they will indirectly dig for more info which will lead to thier name being blacklisted and labelled as disobedient.

I don't agree with this assumption, it depends on a claymore's character. Curious types (the majority) will dig for more whereas incurious types will just do their work without questioning. And every curious type will be pruned at one point, no matter whether they're half-awakened or not. As KillerYomaFromSpace said, Clare, Helen and Deneve didn't know they were half-awakened, and I don't think the org. punished them in advance.

For example even if there is no miria, there is still galatea who question the authorities....she didn't get punish due to her abilities and high rank but in the end, they sent her on to a suicide mission in rabona.

The org. is killing the deserters, they also killed (?) Irene. It's a company policy. :)

babuji

2008-07-13, 09:26

¿? I thought Galatea was never sent to Rabona, she simply abandoned the Org and hided there. When she discovered Agatha was hiding in the holy city too, she got her eyes off to live undercovered until the Org send someone to kill her, exactly what happened after.

Galatea's problem was that she expected the Org to send a bigger group of Claymores, probably with at least two single digits, instead a completely useless nº 47 and a psycho little nº 4.

Prado: Using several pieces of information and some clues, we've narrowed down her location.

http://www.onemanga.com/Claymore/73/04/

Wasn't she sent to a mission in rabona? There she was defeated by an AB and hid there to wait for a chance to kill it with the help of other claymore that are sent to kill her.

babuji

2008-07-13, 09:29

I don't agree with this assumption, it depends on a claymore's character. Curious types (the majority) will dig for more whereas incurious types will just do their work without questioning. And every curious type will be pruned at one point, no matter whether they're half-awakened or not. As KillerYomaFromSpace said, Clare, Helen and Deneve didn't know they were half-awakened, and I don't think the org. punished them in advance.

The org. is killing the deserters, they also killed (?) Irene. It's a company policy. :)

I believe by nature, most claymores are actually curious of thier abilities when partially awaken......on top of that, the org did take advance step by killing those claymores for the sake of maintaining thier reputation and secrets.

Flar

2008-07-13, 09:31

Wasn't she sent to a mission in rabona? There she was defeated by an AB and hid there to wait for a chance to kill it with the help of other claymore that are sent to kill her.No.

She deserted, blinded herself, then hid in Rabona. Some months before the current timeline, Agatha appeared, Galatea, not being strong enough to win against ehr alone, leaked information of her whereabouts to the org, who sent Clarice.

Korinov

2008-07-13, 09:34

Wasn't she sent to a mission in rabona? There she was defeated by an AB and hid there to wait for a chance to kill it with the help of other claymore that are sent to kill her.

Galatea had never met Agatha face to face before Clarice & Miata's appearing in Rabona. She deserted, probably, after seeing Agatha & Beth slaying the ABs survivors from Pieta.

If you have a pic or an image that shows Galatea was sent to Rabona by the Org, please hang it over! ;)

babuji

2008-07-13, 09:38

Galatea had never met Agatha face to face before Clarice & Miata's appearing in Rabona. She deserted, probably, after seeing Agatha & Beth slaying the ABs survivors from Pieta.

If you have a pic or an image that shows Galatea was sent to Rabona by the Org, please hang it over! ;)

I remembered somewhere, she said she lose the fight and got her eyes squash out by agatha.....She didn't blind herself. I hope I am not wrong in this. I know i did saw it somewhere unless i got mix up, but I am pretty sure she didn't blind herself.

If i do find that pic later, I will surely put it here.

:)

PureYoki

2008-07-13, 09:44

I believe by nature, most claymores are actually curious of thier abilities when partially awaken......on top of that, the org did take advance step by killing those claymores for the sake of maintaining thier reputation and secrets.

I think we are not on the same page. :confused:

For example Deneve half-awakened because she was curious to discover her limits, not the other way around. And I don't understand why Deneve would have a sudden urge to learn everything about the org. after half-awakening. What would she think: "Now I'm stronger, I'm able to do what I can't do before, so let's go and find the real goal of the org. I hope it is something noble because otherwise I'll be their worst enemy"? Sorry, I can't see the connection. I can't see the connection between being stronger and being more rebellious. And if the org. is so afraid of powerful claymores, they should kill off all single digits and use only mediocre ones.

babuji

2008-07-13, 09:54

I think we are not on the same page. :confused:

For example Deneve half-awakened because she was curious to discover her limits, not the other way around. And I don't understand why Deneve would have a sudden urge to learn everything about the org. after half-awakening. What would she think: "Now I'm stronger, I'm able to do what I can't do before, so let's go and find the real goal of the org. I hope it is something noble because otherwise I'll be their worst enemy"? Sorry, I can't see the connection. I can't see the connection between being stronger and being more rebellious. And if the org. is so afraid of powerful claymores, they should kill off all single digits and use only mediocre ones.

I mean that the claymores who partially awakens could actually develop more and eventually become stronger than the single digits. Then comes Miria or Galatea type who questions the authority and starts to rally all claymores who had the similar experience. This will actually become a threat in the org's opinion.

I don't mean, that the stronger they become they will be rebellious, but the problems comes from a few claymores like Miria and galatea who can influence other claymores and the org's way of percieving these problems. The org will view it in a negative way and start to kill of claymores who were blacklisted by them.

Enara

2008-07-13, 10:00

No.

She deserted, blinded herself, then hid in Rabona.

I don't think she blinded her self.

irvinethearcher

2008-07-13, 10:06

Anotheer thought. They were almost done with Alice so that makes the Fab 4 even less valuable

And a good one! After alicia seemed to be a success the other half - awakened were seen as some kind of toxic waste. They wanted get rid of them but use it as last opportunity to study them. They 've got probably enough informations froma alicia and beth. To bad that they don't know in what a strong way the half awakening brings out thersas potential and how much control clare has gained yet over it.
Miria: Half-awakened during a mission. Noses around the orgs secrets. To curious and to intelligent and to strong to allow her to stay alive and find out to much. What she can tell other clayomores.
Deneve:Half- awakened. Experimented with her limits. Troublemaker and perfectionist. Often picks a quarel with other claymores.
Helen: Half - awakened. Anachist and troublemaker. Almost took a human life.
Clare: Calm on the surface but underneath very ambitious and hot tempered. Obsessed with killing priscilla. A fanatic who joined the org on her free will and who demanded to put theresas flesh in her to achieve her revenge. A seemingly failed experiment and at first the weakest of all claymores but somehow able to survive even the most hopeless situations and to grow in power through her half - awakening in Rabona.
"At no point has the fact changed that there is an uncetain element to #47"

PureYoki

2008-07-13, 10:08

I mean that the claymores who partially awakens could actually develop more and eventually become stronger than the single digits. Then comes Miria or Galatea type who questions the authority and starts to rally all claymores who had the similar experience. This will actually become a threat in the org's opinion.

Miria also influenced claymores who never had the experience. Every claymore who has leadership skills is potentially dangerous to the organization. And it's not a matter of strength or awakening, it's the org.'s policy that pisses them off. Even if they didn't awaken, they would still rebel against the org. and thus be targeted by the organization. Half-awakening has no place in this equation.

babuji

2008-07-13, 10:20

Miria also influenced claymores who never had the experience. Every claymore who has leadership skills is potentially dangerous to the organization. And it's not a matter of strength or awakening, it's the org.'s policy that pisses them off. Even if they didn't awaken, they would still rebel against the org. and thus be targeted by the organization. Half-awakening has no place in this equation.

However I still believe there are striking similarities about partial awakening and the killing of claymores. I agree on the deneve part that she forced herself to awaken but still that was just one case and was a special case that she was sent with miria gang on an ab hunt...however, there are still a large groups of claymores who partially awaken and they in turn were sent to harder mission usually above thier capabilities. That is what makes me wondering about this 2 main factor that comes in play.

PureYoki

2008-07-13, 10:24

however, there are still a large groups of claymores who partially awaken and they in turn were sent to harder mission usually above thier capabilities. That is what makes me wondering about this 2 main factor that comes in play.

Did we see any other partially-awakened group of claymores besides fab4? :confused:

babuji

2008-07-13, 10:27

Did we see any other partially-awakened group of claymores besides fab4? :confused:

I think jean was one and undine was near there.......

Couldn't recall others......there could be more.

PureYoki

2008-07-13, 10:33

I think jean was one and undine was near there.......

Couldn't recall others......there could be more.

I mean, do we know any other mission which only partially-awakened claymores joined?

The war in Pieta was not about half-awakening, every powerful claymore in the org.'s disposal was there besides Galatea and Rafaela who had other duties. They were merely cannon fodders who were used to buy them some time before Alicia was completed.

Ryuken

2008-07-13, 10:39

I mean, do we know any other mission which only partially-awakened claymores joined?

The war in Pieta was not about half-awakening, every powerful claymore in the org.'s disposal was there besides Galatea and Rafaela who had other duties. They were merely cannon fodders who were used to buy them some time before Alicia was completed.

That must be it then, I mean there were a lot of weak ones there too whom the org would have known that would not survive at any case. I think the only one that survived among them was Yuma.:)

PureYoki

2008-07-13, 10:48

That must be it then, I mean there were a lot of weak ones there too whom the org would have known that would not survive at any case. I think the only one that survived among them was Yuma.:)

If we assume #30 and lower are weak, Yuma and Tabitha are the weak ones that survived. :)

They were probably sent to distract the opponents and create opportunities for higher-ranked warriors to make as much damage as possible. They were the cannon fodders of the cannon fodders. :D

babuji

2008-07-13, 10:53

If we assume #30 and lower are weak, Yuma and Tabitha are the weak ones that survived. :)

They were probably sent to distract the opponents and create opportunities for higher-ranked warriors to make as much damage as possible. They were the cannon fodders of the cannon fodders. :D

Probally, that was an unrelated incident where they took the opportunity to weed off the disobedient and sent some as scape goat to buy some time.

They might actually, put 2 into 1 and make thier job easy in killing off the disabedient and buy more time.

Ryuken

2008-07-13, 11:01

If we assume #30 and lower are weak, Yuma and Tabitha are the weak ones that survived. :)

They were probably sent to distract the opponents and create opportunities for higher-ranked warriors to make as much damage as possible. They were the cannon fodders of the cannon fodders. :D

From another point of view they, (the weaker ones) would have been a burden on the stronger ones as well. You see the weaker ones will get into trouble and the stronger ones will have to save them leaving their own selves exposed to attack. The org seems to have planed this scenario very well indeed.

babuji

2008-07-13, 11:06

From another point of view they, (the weaker ones) would have been a burden on the stronger ones as well. You see the weaker ones will get into trouble and the stronger ones will have to save them leaving their own selves exposed to attack. The org seems to have planed this scenario very well indeed.

Yeah, they have plans indeed.
The org are kinda evil to be exact.

Cyclone

2008-07-13, 11:27

I don't think she blinded her self.

Flar is 100% correct. She did blind herself - it's mentioned twice.
The first time around chapter chapter 76-ish or so in one of the margins (which many scanlators don't bother to translate), and then Galatea says it herself to Miria in chapter 79 (pg3). I can find the exact pages if you like.

babuji

2008-07-13, 11:38

Flar is 100% correct. She did blind herself - it's mentioned twice.
The first time around chapter chapter 76-ish or so in one of the margins (which many scanlators don't bother to translate), and then Galatea says it herself to Miria in chapter 79 (pg3). I can find the exact pages if you like.

I though she said her eyes were squash or something like that?

Negativedark

2008-07-13, 11:39

Peita was a purge. It let the org get rid of the troublesome and the weak. The ONLY thing that the org was hoping for was that it would give them enough time to get Alicia ready. It's stated as much in the Manga. Remember the Org feels that they can always just make more. Infact a high rate of death is preferable, because they can justify to outsiders the need to keep making new Claymores. And if they can keep making new Claymores, it lets them keep experimenting and getting closer to their real goal.

As for Galetea, I've seen translations that go both ways on her eyes. Of course one of the interesting things about her is that by losing her eyes she was able to avoid having to live in some remote place by herself like most desserting Claymores. That's why Clarice was surprised, because a big city, much less Rabona was the last place she was expecting to find her. Another interesting thing is that Galetea was living like a normal human, witch is one of the greatest desires for a lot of Claymores. She outright states that she considers her sight a small price to pay for that time. Also it's intresting that she ends up working with orphens, and being so loved by them. But it makes perfect sense. There's a good chance Galetea was an orphen too, and as thus she will have an understanding of what it is those children need.

As for her abilities as an eye, I always got the impresion from the MIB's thoughts that she was above average.

Cyclone

2008-07-13, 11:44

Hmm, I wonder if rankings are relevant in a claymore's skill as an eye. The eye is the one out of 47 claymores who has the best yoki sensing skills. I think even #47 may be the eye, although she sucks at fighting. The rankings are almost always arranged according to their fighting skills, i.e. you expect a high-ranked warrior to defeat a lower-ranked warrior in a duel.

That said, I believe Galatea is much superior to Renee/Lune in both fighting and yoki-sensing skills. This generation may be relatively weaker than the last generation, the org. has lost almost every elite warrior in/after Pieta and it's very hard to replace all of them with equally-skilled soldiers.

In terms of sensing, Miata seems the ultimate warrior but I don't understand how she has found Galatea. Did the org. give Miata an old garment of Galatea to sniff? And if Galatea was hiding her yoki aura, how did she expect the org. to find her?

I agree with you that a high rank is not really essential for a eye type Claymore.
The thing is though, that Galatea developed her fighting style around her sensing skills. The better her sensing and manipulating abilites are, the better her fighting ability (hence rank). In her case, rank and sensing abilites are related and are some indication of just how good Galatea is at sensing.

I also have a theory that to do stuff like long range sensing, you have to emit youki - much like sending out a radar signal or something. So the more youki reserves you have, the more potential you have as an eye. Galatea has a lot of youki.

Rune on the other hand, well, her admitted strength is her speed. Her speed and sensing skills combined don't put her in the top 5.

Honestly, before this chapter, I was hoping that Lune would be an exceptionally weak/frail Claymore with awesome sensing skills. Alas, it was not to be. But then, I guess if she was as good as I hoped, she'd never get caught by Riful...

Cyclone

2008-07-13, 11:49

I though she said her eyes were squash or something like that?

I repeat - Flar is 100% right.
You know how the Japanese can get flowerly with their langauge choices. I'm sure the original was something like "light taken from these eye" or even "destroyed these eyes" or something instead of a nice simple "I blinded myself". I can find the exact phrasing if you like. Fact is she did it to herself though.

No.

She deserted, blinded herself, then hid in Rabona. Some months before the current timeline, Agatha appeared, Galatea, not being strong enough to win against ehr alone, leaked information of her whereabouts to the org, who sent Clarice.

----------------

As for Galetea, I've seen translations that go both ways on her eyes. Of course one of the interesting things about her is that by losing her eyes she was able to avoid having to live in some remote place by herself like most desserting Claymores. That's why Clarice was surprised, because a big city, much less Rabona was the last place she was expecting to find her. Another interesting thing is that Galetea was living like a normal human, witch is one of the greatest desires for a lot of Claymores. She outright states that she considers her sight a small price to pay for that time. Also it's intresting that she ends up working with orphens, and being so loved by them. But it makes perfect sense. There's a good chance Galetea was an orphen too, and as thus she will have an understanding of what it is those children need.

Yes, some translations oof those chapters were really bad.

Ok - you guys made me dig up the japanese:
motomoto kono machi de kakure sumu tame ni jibun de tsuketa kizu da.

Originally, for the purposes of living and concealing in this city, onto myself, I inflicted this wound.

babuji

2008-07-13, 12:22

Ok - you guys made me dig up the japanese:
motomoto kono machi de kakure sumu tame ni jibun de tsuketa kizu da.

Originally, for the purposes of living and concealing in this city, onto myself, I inflicted this wound.

Dang, why didn't I notice this japanese phrase.....Yeah, it should be translated that way. I should start to read raw instead of translated ones.

Thx for alerting me on it.

Ryuken

2008-07-13, 12:41

Originally, for the purposes of living and concealing in this city, onto myself, I inflicted this wound.

Very brave of her wasn't it. To give up everything just to live the life of a normal human being. Makes me want to cry. (sniff):)

irvinethearcher

2008-07-13, 13:29

She has probably seen enough terrible things with her own eyes, so she doesn't miss them a lot;)

chibamonster

2008-07-13, 13:34

@PureYoki: Thanks for the compliment about my story writing. I think I have actually gotten much better at writing thanks to this forum. I feel that I am able to express my thoughts much more clearly than I ever was before. I didn't notice it until a few months ago, but the constant interaction with people through writing has been really very interesting.

@Ryuken: I actually feel happy for Galatea despite the wound she gave herself, and I think she feels the same. Though the thought of her outside Rabona with sword in hand raising it against herself so that she can be accepted is a very tragic one. In losing her eyes Galatea gained a human life, with human relationships, where children loved her and where she was depended on. What she gained far outweighed what she lost, especially in her own... eyes. In the end her actual claymore abilities have only improved. So as a warrior she is now far more dangerous, and as a human she got to live the life Claymores never do. The thing that really warms the heart is her willingness to protect the people of Rabona because she cares for them in a way she never thought she could. She was willing to die for them in the chance that she might save the city. Now her secret identity has been revealed and it seems Rabona will accept her for exactly who she is which is awesome. Go Father Vincent! Though I do not think Galatea has clear waters ahead of her with the battles looming ahead.

The people I feel really bad for are Irene or even Raphaela who spent years in isolation hiding themselves as their eyes would give them away to anyone who saw them. The thought of Irene sitting alone in her shack in the woods for years accompanied only by the fear and frustration from her warrior life hurts. I hope she had some friends. Maybe a blind farmer... or anyone... Raphaela wandering around without anywhere to go with only the tortured thoughts of her sister to keep her company also makes you sad. Galatea and Teresa's choice to live with humans brought them many heavy costs, all of which they were willing to pay. That really is my favorite part of claymore. Despite all the super human powers what many Claymores want is what most humans desire; relationships. Even some of the AB's have that same desire.

irvinethearcher

2008-07-13, 13:42

Even some of the AB's have that same desire.

Riful and dauf because he ist the only one who can accept her without breaking :)

chibamonster

2008-07-13, 13:58

@Irvinearcher: Your post made me think of something. Duff is with Riful because he will not break, and it seems he has genuine feelings for her as the thought of losing her hurt him much more than losing his hands. In the end she saved him showing that she did have feelings for him, even if she guised them under his being strong enough to take her on. He may be dumb, but I do not think Riful is just using Duff. She is powerful enough she probably does not need to. I think there really is something there.

The same could be said about Chibi Clare and Teresa. How many little girls would follow a woman who kicked them and threatened them with a sword? Had Clare not been as dedicated, or if she had anywhere else to go, Teresa never would have known what it was like to be treated as a human. Clare changed Teresa's life, and though it resulted in her death , Teresa "was happy" in Irene's words. When Teresa's handler said she would regret her decision Teresa said, "I won't. I have no reason to." She meant it. Irene was admittedly jealous of the happiness Teresa had gained. Raki and Priscilla is a new case of relationships that I am excited to explore as the story unfolds.

Relationships in Claymore are fantastic and have so much dynamic that is missing in not only manga, but most stories in general. It makes the characters, most of whom are superhuman death machines, much easier to relate to than most anything else I have seen. It almost seems like the awesome battles are less important than the character development and interaction that happens during them. This can be seen in the North where Jean dies to save Clare. Or in the whole Teresa arc. Or in Irene's reappearance. Or in recent chapters where we find Galatea's plan. Or Miata throwing her sword hoping to save Clarice, and Clarice in turn launching an attack against an AB she stands no chance against to save Miata whom she is afraid of. Claymore is chalked full of these relationship thingies :D.

Ryuken

2008-07-13, 14:09

@Ryuken: I actually feel happy for Galatea despite the wound she gave herself, and I think she feels the same. Though the thought of her outside Rabona with sword in hand raising it against herself so that she can be accepted is a very tragic one. In losing her eyes Galatea gained a human life, with human relationships, where children loved her and where she was depended on. What she gained far outweighed what she lost, especially in her own... eyes. In the end her actual claymore abilities have only improved. So as a warrior she is now far more dangerous, and as a human she got to live the life Claymores never do. The thing that really warms the heart is her willingness to protect the people of Rabona because she cares for them in a way she never thought she could. She was willing to die for them in the chance that she might save the city. Now her secret identity has been revealed and it seems Rabona will accept her for exactly who she is which is awesome. Go Father Vincent! Though I do not think Galatea has clear waters ahead of her with the battles looming ahead.

The people I feel really bad for are Irene or even Raphaela who spent years in isolation hiding themselves as their eyes would give them away to anyone who saw them. The thought of Irene sitting alone in her shack in the woods for years accompanied only by the fear and frustration from her warrior life hurts. I hope she had some friends. Maybe a blind farmer... or anyone... Raphaela wandering around without anywhere to go with only the tortured thoughts of her sister to keep her company also makes you sad. Galatea and Teresa's choice to live with humans brought them many heavy costs, all of which they were willing to pay. That really is my favorite part of claymore. Despite all the super human powers what many Claymores want is what most humans desire; relationships. Even some of the AB's have that same desire.

Yes @chiba, that is so true.:)

Negativedark

2008-07-13, 17:01

She has probably seen enough terrible things with her own eyes, so she doesn't miss them a lot;)
But I wouldn't be surprised if at some point she says that she does wish she could see the childrens smiles.

PureYoki

2008-07-13, 17:35

Does anybody else have a feeling that Galatea will sacrifice herself for G7 considering that she has no more expectations from life?

Lich_king

2008-07-13, 18:16

Man whatta boring chapter, but end is good it could be rather amusing in 82, just wandering hows Rene get out from the situation with Riful.

Awakened

2008-07-13, 18:41

Partially awaken Claymores are a threat to the Org. The Org have there convenient ranking system, they have a few strong Claymores and lots of weak ones.
Partially awaken Claymores troughs a wrench in their system. A partially awaken #47 can become as strong as a #6. Next thing you know Claymores are living to long.
If the Org needs to get rid of a rebellious Claymore (Teresa for example) they have to dedicate a large portion of their forces to take her down. In the current system they might have trouble taking down a high ranking Claymore, but it’s manageable. With lots of high rank Claymores running around things can get out of hand fast for the Org.

The Org is not in a hurry to kill off partially awakened Claymores, they just don’t want them to live to long.

Cyclone

2008-07-13, 19:31

Does anybody else have a feeling that Galatea will sacrifice herself for G7 considering that she has no more expectations from life?

Wash your mouth out with soap!

Man whatta boring chapter, but end is good it could be rather amusing in 82, just wandering hows Rene get out from the situation with Riful.

She wont - that's the point. She bravely sacrificed herself so that our beloved Galatea wouldn't have to. We wont forget your sacrifice Rune... rest/awaken in peace.

Zsych

2008-07-13, 20:17

@Awakened: If they were all partially awakened, the situation would be much the same as if no one was partially awakened, in regard to how hard it is to suppress someone.

Of course, the org probably can't identify who will survive partial awakening, so allowing the chance in general is probably a bad idea, and they may have some info on the chances of partially awakened, actually awakening.

Awakened

2008-07-13, 20:45

@Awakened: If they were all partially awakened, the situation would be much the same as if no one was partially awakened, in regard to how hard it is to suppress someone.

?
Am not sure is this was meant for me.

Torri_fay_torren@hot

2008-07-14, 02:46

I think a lot of people are still laboring under the delusion that if the Claymore's are relatively strong( a succes) and are obediant and do all that they are told then the MIB's will keep them in the Org and take care of them. Or at least not target them.

Negative

The organisation doesn't care. Claymores are tools. Even if they aren't broken tools,(IE rebelious or not very stronge) once the Org gets something better they will just toss them aside.

Ongoing expirament

Why kill the partial awakened ones? Because they don't need them in the long run, or they might becaume rebellous. Whichever argument you want to go for.
It's not like there valuable anyway. The Org will eventually have more of them or Alice will be completed.

The fact that the Fab 4 were rebellious was just extra insentive. I woldn't be suprised if Claymores were often sent on suicide missions, or at least very dangerous missions. (I'm not saying that it's routine, that it's just not intirerly uncommen.) A Claymore's job is not to kill yoma, it's to be a good test subjec. Nothing more nothing less. The use them and toss them aside. We got to keep that in mind.

Oh, another thought. Isn't a Claymore designed to awaken? Partial awakends didn't manage to do that. (heaven forbide that they have some will power :rolleyes:)

And has the Org done a long term study and found out that they might be stronger when/ or if they actually do awaken latter? Or did the Org. kill them to fast, or have unconclusive succes? I don't think that there has actually been a lot of partial awakens before the Fab 4 so the Org might not know. The Partials even seem to be more resilient to awakening. ( Total failers why can't they do what there suppose to? :rolleyes:)

chibamonster

2008-07-14, 02:53

Yeah, the organization probably does not care much. I wonder what they are really testing. Why do they have to make youma to do their experiments? Maybe because youma have something to do with their ultimate goal? Somehow it is probably related to AB's me thinks, but I am not sure how at the moment. There is something else going on with the MiBs...

Really after the last two chapters the claymore world has gotten some massive spin to it. Not only are there partially awakened claymores who can use abilities that would normally require extreem youki output, now we have a full AB who seems to have given up eating humans! Apparently Prissy is now willing to kill any of Raki's enemies who so much as touch him the wrong way. So Raki, by being a friendly idiot (as he admits himself) has achieved something the MiB's do not even have yet; control over something more powerful than the Abyssals. I am excited to see how it all turns out, and what the organization is really up to. They really seem too hasty to kill off claymores that would seem to help their research. It makes me think their goal is not just a perfect weapon but something else as well.

Dreadz!

2008-07-14, 03:22

Dreadz!

2008-07-14, 03:33

To think about it, we know almost nothing about youma, about why they were developed. When ? Using what kind of experiments ? Why they ended up using humans as the only food source? and so on...

Maybe youma are natural ? Maybe originally they are some kind of wild beast (might be even w/o some particular intellect, like big cats) which were changed by humans and turned to somthing we know as youma ?

That theory of Miria is a great step ahead in story, but there are too many things to be still revealed. Defenetly, as many ppl say, something epic is closing in, the only question is when will it arrive...

PureYoki

2008-07-14, 05:19

I think a lot of people are still laboring under the delusion that if the Claymore's are relatively strong( a succes) and are obediant and do all that they are told then the MIB's will keep them in the Org and take care of them. Or at least not target them.

Negative

Ok, but then why is the org. in claymore business? What exactly are they trying to achieve? If they don't want strong obedient claymores, what is the point of trying to make controllable ABs? G7 defeated a former #2 AB very easily, G7 even may cause lots of trouble to Alicia and they don't have a Beth weakness, what else does the org. want? Are they so obsessed with creating controllable ABs that they waste promising claymores who are stronger than their beloved ABs?

Yes, partially-awakeneds didn't fully awaken and IMO this is a success. ABs eat human guts, they can attack their own soldiers, partial awakeneds don't do that. Yes, they are somewhat weaker than their AB forms but their advantages far outweigh the disadvantages. Alicia is not a success, an opponent can always target Beth and at least 2-3 powerful claymores has to be beside her to defend her. What's the point if the org. uses Beth+3 strong claymores to keep Alicia in control? Does it make much difference if Alicia+Beth+other strong claymores fight in their claymore forms? IMO partially-awakened Alicia+Beth fighting side by side is much more convenient than soul-linked Alicia.

It seems either the org. is full of fools who underestimate the value of partially-awakened claymores or Miria doesn't know the whole story and the org. has some unknown goal, creating strong soldiers is not at upmost importance for them.

chibamonster

2008-07-14, 06:07

Whatever the organizations true goals are, being strong does not seem to be an advantage for survival in the life of a Claymore. Take Teresa's example. Teresa hid the fact that she was much stronger than the organization knew. Why would she do that? She was already #1 and the power they knew the MiB's acknowledged as a rare talent. Teresa knew the organization sent youma to towns. She scared towns senseless to make sure they payed so they could survive. If Teresa knew that, and knew her own power, what could possibly keep her from pulling a Miria and taking the organization down? Unlike Miria, Teresa had the power to take the org down... unless there was a vital piece of information that stopped her from moving.

When the extra chapter about Clare came out, I was convinced the organizaiton was stupid or that Yagi had made a huge mistake with showing how Claymores graduate. But when Miria's secret came out I was proven wrong and it even made sense. The organization was not looking for perfect soldiers. It was running an experiment. The organization's graduation test does not reward those who are strong and obedient, as they would kill their comrades and get ambushed. Too bad Clarice did not learn this lesson and had Miata attack Galatea instead of Agatha.

Really we do not know what the organization wants from their claymores. Power does not seem to be a redeeming factor and neither does intelligence. Really Priscilla would have probably been exactly what I think the organization wanted; a powerful, dedicated, and impossible to detect warrior. But she exploded. Her indoctrination got in the way of her mission. Is it possible their test screens for people with potential youki issues? It's all speculation at this point. But one thing that weighs heavy on my mind is that whoever has been feeding Miria info has not apparently done anything to destroy the organization that we know of. And whatever Teresa knew that made her keep her secret did not make her leave the organization.

I am excited for what is coming up in the story.

KillerYomaFromSpace

2008-07-14, 07:11

But one thing that weighs heavy on my mind is that whoever has been feeding Miria info has not apparently done anything to destroy the organization that we know of. And whatever Teresa knew that made her keep her secret did not make her leave the organization.

I am excited for what is coming up in the story.

Maybe he is there to leak information to the DoDs, and not to sabotage it.

and I think Teresa did't leave the org because it seems that she didn't care about anything until she met Clare

Awakened

2008-07-14, 08:20

Ok, but then why is the org. in claymore business? What exactly are they trying to achieve? If they don't want strong obedient claymores, what is the point of trying to make controllable ABs? G7 defeated a former #2 AB very easily, G7 even may cause lots of trouble to Alicia and they don't have a Beth weakness, what else does the org. want? Are they so obsessed with creating controllable ABs that they waste promising claymores who are stronger than their beloved ABs?

Yes, partially-awakeneds didn't fully awaken and IMO this is a success. ABs eat human guts, they can attack their own soldiers, partial awakeneds don't do that. Yes, they are somewhat weaker than their AB forms but their advantages far outweigh the disadvantages. Alicia is not a success, an opponent can always target Beth and at least 2-3 powerful claymores has to be beside her to defend her. What's the point if the org. uses Beth+3 strong claymores to keep Alicia in control? Does it make much difference if Alicia+Beth+other strong claymores fight in their claymore forms? IMO partially-awakened Alicia+Beth fighting side by side is much more convenient than soul-linked Alicia.

It seems either the org. is full of fools who underestimate the value of partially-awakened claymores or Miria doesn't know the whole story and the org. has some unknown goal, creating strong soldiers is not at upmost importance for them.

If the Org wanted strong Claymores Priscilla would still be a Claymore. Riful awakened at an early age, this should have thought the Org something, but they don't seem to care. Right now they have unstable Miata running around. Any impartial observer can see that Miata is a ticking time bomb. Thankfully Miata have Claries to keep her sane.

The most important thing for a Claymore is a strong mind, the Org have been experimenting for more than 100 years, and as far as I can see they have not done anything to help Claymores strengthen there mind.

Let take Priscilla, she had potential to surpass Teresa, in my book that's very strong. What did the Org do with such a promising Claymore? They sent her on a mission that she was not prepaid for.

Ok, so you thinking the Org could not have known that she would have awakened, and I agree. But let me ask you this, If you were in charge of Priscilla, would you send her on that mission?
No one knew that Priscilla would have awakened, but if you have a precious experiment wouldn’t you do everything to protect it?
Not sending Priscilla to fight Teresa is not been overprotective. We have history to look at (Riful). Killing Teresa was not so agent that the Org had to risk their precious experiment.

Ok, you are not convinced. Does Miata’s mission to kill Galatea look familiar to you? To me it looks exactly the same as Priscilla's mission. They sent an inexperience Claymore to take down a strong experienced Claymore. The first time they lost their top 5 Claymores, you would think that is something that the Org would remember. Ok, maybe they learned something, this time they only sent Claries and Miata, if something should go wrong they will only lose a #47 and a potential #1.

Ok, you in the Mib, you have the Riful and Priscilla incident to look at, do you sent Miata on a mission if you want strong Claymores?

The Mibs knows how important a strong mind is to a Claymore. The black card is Proof of that. Instead of strengthening the Claymores mind they seem to be doing the opposite.

Claymores are loners not because they want to but, because the mib want them to be. Claymores are expected to kill each other with no question asked. Claymores are also feared by humans, this leave them with no emotional support. Putting all this emotional strain on a Claymore is a good way to speed up the awakening process.

Why do I say Claymores are loners not because they want to but because the mibs want them to be? To answer that question we just have to look at what happens when a claymore get a chance to be close to someone. (Teresa, Clare), (Clare, Raki), (Helen, Deneven (bff)), (Clare, Jean), (Clare, Flora (let's make sure we survive together)), (Miria and her army), (Miata, Clarice), (Miria and her dead friend), (Riful, Duph), (Priscilla, Raki), (Udine and her friend), am not sure if I forgot anyone.

Ok, back to the Org. The Org can easily have lots of strong Claymores, they are beyond that now :cool:(every generation have their hero, too bad it’s not you):upset:. What they want is something more powerful. Remember it's an experiment; they are not raising an army.

Words form one of the mibs.
The best Claymore is the one that does not live to long :((something like that).

Edit: I see your point, that a lot of strong Claymores are equal to or stronger than an Ab. It might be that the Org wants a lot of Abs instead of a lot of Claymores. 20 ABs are equal to about 80 Claymores, assuming it takes 4 Claymores to kill 1 AB. Something to think about, 24 claymores were not enough to kill Isley.

PureYoki

2008-07-14, 08:45

If I were the head of the org., I wouldn't send an execution squad to kill Teresa or Galatea, especially if I was not 100% sure that I had the power to finish the job without loss. Teresa and Galatea were harmless, attacking them only caused more losses for the org.

The org. has lost Teresa and Priscilla (the strongest warriors in history) in one go, if they're after someone much more powerful than these two combined, I should say the org.'s goals are very unrealistic.

Goofus Maximus

2008-07-14, 11:30

Is it just me, or does there seem to be extreme emotional overlap between the unstable Claymore Miata, and the unstable AB Priscilla? Both seem to be berserkers who are dependent upon their support partner for emotional stability.

Dreadz!

2008-07-14, 11:30

The Org is here to make experiments, even Miria admits it saying that their continent is a big testing ground, thus everything they do should be considered as experiments. For instance take Clare, when she went missing Rimuto gave the task to Ermita to use galatea and find Clare... above evrything else(i think it wont be wrong to presume that the "eye" is the most busiest of all the claymores). Why ? Because she is something valuable as an experiment that has never been done before.

The only thing that they really care about is safety of their own headquaters. For instance, you can see why did the Org start to aggro ABs on their own... that happened only after it has become evident that ABs are able to form groups and thus possess threat to the Org.(and their experiments).

Maybe Teresa's case was both an experiment and an elimination of potential threat( i think most will agree that Teresa wasnt executed because she killed a bunch of good for nothing bandits in some small mountain town). Same case might be in Slashers arc(with Miria). Miata being sent after Galatea is the same thing, she was just another mentaly unstable child, that might cause some troubles to the Org. so loosing her is not a great deal. But a great experiment case about how would she do against former no3 with excellent youki sensing skills.

Everything that is a potential threat to the Org. is being wached closely and being eliminated sooner or later.

PS. To think about Ophelia's case, i doubt they didnt know about her killing innocents, but they did nothing to stop her... why ? I think the answer is that she didnt know much, didnt suspect anything, and was pretty harmless to the Org. itself. She was just... another experiment case...

Flar

2008-07-14, 11:41

If Teresa knew that, and knew her own power, what could possibly keep her from pulling a Miria and taking the organization down? Unlike Miria, Teresa had the power to take the org down... unless there was a vital piece of information that stopped her from moving.Simple, really, Teresa was a cynic and didn't care about it, she went with the flow... until Clare. And even then, she didn't have any really vengeful ideas, she just wanted to be left alone. More or less like our lovable AOs during the stalemate, actually.

I'm not sure that if Teresa cared, she would have wanted to cut down 46 claymores and some more in training, on top of the multiple AB and yoma the org would have used, anyway.

Also, I think you either overestimate Teresa's power, or underestimate the org. Even if this is a powerlevel manga, alone against more than half a hundred enemies is not good odds.

Really we do not know what the organization wants from their claymores.They want controllable ABs, I thought that the Miria exposition chapter made that clear. Priscilla was another failure for them, since neither her yoki suppression nor her dedication to the org managed to keep her from going insane and forsaking the organisation. It might be too soon to say if it turned into a success with Raki, since for all intents and purposes, Priscilla reverted to Claymore form and may go batshit insane the next time she transforms.

In some ways, Clare is approaching what they want from their experiments, only they need her to actually awaken and keep her mind first.

In that light, sending the half-awakened against impossibly strong opponents may not be an attempt at killing them, but a test. You fail, you die, and to survive, you have to draw from your new abilities, and actively control them... In summary, get strong. (Still, no way Pieta was not a purge)

Ryuken

2008-07-14, 11:55

Well there are all kinds in all orgs you see. There are loners, emotional ones, physcos, strong ones and so on. I think the most important thing on the mind of the org was dealing with the disobidient ones. So they derived a plan. And thus the dangerous missions. Remember, they were going to send Galatea on these so called missions after they had learnd that she had lied to them about Clare and Jean.:)

Awakened

2008-07-14, 11:57

In that light, sending the half-awakened against impossibly strong opponents may not be an attempt at killing them, but a test. You fail, you die, and to survive, you have to draw from your new abilities, and actively control them... In summary, get strong. (Still, no way Pieta was not a purge)

Ruble told Clare to die by doing nothing, or use her power to stay alive.

Flar

2008-07-14, 12:06

Also, what Miria has in mind is not to destroy the org and leave a void in its place, it's to replace it. Only getting rid of the org leaves free reign to Riful and Isley.

Flar

2008-07-14, 12:07

Ruble told Clare to die by doing nothing, or use her power to stay alive.Louvre was always somewhat sneaky, I'm not sure what he says reflects what the org thinks and does.

Awakened

2008-07-14, 12:25

If the Org wanted strong Claymores Priscilla would still be a Claymore. Riful awakened at an early age, this should have thought the Org something, but they don't seem to care. Right now they have unstable Miata running around. Any impartial observer can see that Miata is a ticking time bomb. Thankfully Miata have Claries to keep her sane.

The most important thing for a Claymore is a strong mind, the Org have been experimenting for more than 100 years, and as far as I can see they have not done anything to help Claymores strengthen there mind.

Let take Priscilla, she had potential to surpass Teresa, in my book that's very strong. What did the Org do with such a promising Claymore? They sent her on a mission that she was not prepaid for.

Ok, so you thinking the Org could not have known that she would have awakened, and I agree. But let me ask you this, If you were in charge of Priscilla, would you send her on that mission?
No one knew that Priscilla would have awakened, but if you have a precious experiment wouldn’t you do everything to protect it?
Not sending Priscilla to fight Teresa is not been overprotective. We have history to look at (Riful). Killing Teresa was not so agent that the Org had to risk their precious experiment.

Ok, you are not convinced. Does Miata’s mission to kill Galatea look familiar to you? To me it looks exactly the same as Priscilla's mission. They sent an inexperience Claymore to take down a strong experienced Claymore. The first time they lost their top 5 Claymores, you would think that is something that the Org would remember. Ok, maybe they learned something, this time they only sent Claries and Miata, if something should go wrong they will only lose a #47 and a potential #1.

Ok, you in the Mib, you have the Riful and Priscilla incident to look at, do you sent Miata on a mission if you want strong Claymores?

The Mibs knows how important a strong mind is to a Claymore. The black card is Proof of that. Instead of strengthening the Claymores mind they seem to be doing the opposite.

Claymores are loners not because they want to but, because the mib want them to be. Claymores are expected to kill each other with no question asked. Claymores are also feared by humans, this leave them with no emotional support. Putting all this emotional strain on a Claymore is a good way to speed up the awakening process.

Why do I say Claymores are loners not because they want to but because the mibs want them to be? To answer that question we just have to look at what happens when a claymore get a chance to be close to someone. (Teresa, Clare), (Clare, Raki), (Helen, Deneven (bff)), (Clare, Jean), (Clare, Flora (let's make sure we survive together)), (Miria and her army), (Miata, Clarice), (Miria and her dead friend), (Riful, Duph), (Priscilla, Raki), (Udine and her friend), am not sure if I forgot anyone.

Ok, back to the Org. The Org can easily have lots of strong Claymores, they are beyond that now :cool:(every generation have their hero, too bad it’s not you):upset:. What they want is something more powerful. Remember it's an experiment; they are not raising an army.

Words form one of the mibs.
The best Claymore is the one that does not live to long :((something like that).

Edit: I see your point, that a lot of strong Claymores are equal to or stronger than an Ab. It might be that the Org wants a lot of Abs instead of a lot of Claymores. 20 ABs are equal to about 80 Claymores, assuming it takes 4 Claymores to kill 1 AB. Something to think about, 24 claymores were not enough to kill Isley.

Continue:
Lots of strong Claymores are only as strong as average ABs. #3 and #5 were playthings to Riful. I don't think Teresa could defeat Isley or Riful in her Claymore form (LET THE WAR BEGIN). Claymores have lots of limitations placed on them that Abs doesn’t have. In a Teresa vs. Isley fight, Teresa has to make sure she does not go over her limit, she also wants the fight to end as quickly as possible. If the fight drags on to long she risks depleting the yoki available to her in Claymore form.

You need 4 times the Claymore to take on one average AB, but when it comes to Abs like Riful, Isley or Priscilla an endless supply or Claymores might not be enough if they do not have a technique that will exploit the Abs weakness (Clare vs. Rigaldo).

Just for fun. Isley vs. Teresa
First of all Isley is a long rage fighter, this will prevent Teresa from using her twisting arm technique on him. Second she has to be able to pierce his armor. This might not be difficult for her but Isley is fast, and he can attack on the move. Teresa has to keep up with Isley, evade his attack and try and attack him with a strong enough attack to pierce his armor. No matter how much help Teresa has, if they are not fast enough to keep up with Isley they will be dead before the fight starts.
In the end, Isley just need to keep the pressure up on Teresa until she runs out of her usable yoki (assuming she can last that long). She can choose to awaken or die as a human. :D

Ok, a group of Claymores with the right techniques could take out Isley.

khryoleoz

2008-07-14, 12:35

I just don't get how they are a threat when the org's intention all along is to produce ABs? The closer the warriors get to awakening the better their purpose is served, right?

irvinethearcher

2008-07-14, 12:36

and I think Teresa did't leave the org because it seems that she didn't care about anything until she met Clare

Thresa probably distrusted the mib, i simply call it good instinkts. Perhaps she knew something which seeded doubts about the org in her but she didn't know that much.
Proof?
When the bandit tried to rape her she thought that she can not believe that the claymores protect people like those bandits.
It was perhaps possible for her to get rid of the org all alone but why?
Despite that she was a cynic and didn't really care about anything.

I don't think Teresa could defeat Isley or Riful in her Claymore form (LET THE WAR BEGIN).

We can reduce this problem to the question:
"Was rosemarie AO - Level!"

Awakened

2008-07-14, 12:42

I just don't get how they are a threat when the org's intention all along is to produce ABs? The closer the warriors get to awakening the better their purpose is served, right?

Been controllable is just as important as awakening to the Org.

It’s not that they are an immediate threat; the Org is taking preventive action. Think about it, they send yomas to kill Claymores family; they then take the girls and turn them in to half monsters. Eventually someone will find out, If you are the Org, do you want hundred of high lvl angry Claymores going up against you?

Ryuken

2008-07-14, 12:43

[QUOTE=irvinethearcher;1728678We can reduce this problem to the question:
"Was rosemarie AO - Level!"[/QUOTE]

Probably a strong AB but surely not an AO.:)

Awakened

2008-07-14, 12:45

We can reduce this problem to the question:
"Was rosemarie AO - Level!"

All AOs are not created equal, in a fight ability is also a factor.

A tank (Teresa) can crush a jet (Isley) if its on the ground, but in the air the jet is king.

PureYoki

2008-07-14, 12:47

Ok, a group of Claymores with the right techniques could take out Isley.

I would put my money on G7+Rafaela against Isley.

I think Teresa has to release 60-70% of her yoki to be on par with Isley. Claymore form is too limited to initiate strong attacks.

irvinethearcher

2008-07-14, 12:59

Theresas preemptive aura protection will deal with isleys arrows.
We can still reduce this to the rosemarie problem.

PureYoki

2008-07-14, 13:05

We can reduce this problem to the question:
"Was rosemarie AO - Level!"

If Rosemary=Isley, yes, it would solve the problem but no, I don't think Rosemary is Isley level, she is around Rigardo level.

Awakened

2008-07-14, 13:05

Theresas preemptive auro protection will deal with isleys arrows.
We can still reduce this to the rosemarie problem.

Isley is not one dimensional, he has armor, speed, long-range and flexible weapon chose.

The way you say it, is like Isley will stand in one place and just let Teresa have her way with him.:D

irvinethearcher

2008-07-14, 13:11

rosemarie had armor and speed too. But after ripley/theresa dealt with her she was shreaded into little pieces.
It will be quite easy for theresa to kill isley if rosemarie was AO.
She will simply run to him because she's probably faster and avoid his arrows with her aura protection and will twist his neck off with her lef hand. ;) No big deal.

Awakened

2008-07-14, 13:20

khryoleoz

2008-07-14, 13:23

Continue:
Lots of strong Claymores are only as strong as average ABs. #3 and #5 were playthings to Riful. I don't think Teresa could defeat Isley or Riful in her Claymore form (LET THE WAR BEGIN). Claymores have lots of limitations placed on them that Abs doesn’t have. In a Teresa vs. Isley fight, Teresa has to make sure she does not go over her limit, she also wants the fight to end as quickly as possible. If the fight drags on to long she risks depleting the yoki available to her in Claymore form.

You need 4 times the Claymore to take on one average AB, but when it comes to Abs like Riful, Isley or Priscilla an endless supply or Claymores might not be enough if they do not have a technique that will exploit the Abs weakness (Clare vs. Rigaldo).

Just for fun. Isley vs. Teresa
First of all Isley is a long rage fighter, this will prevent Teresa from using her twisting arm technique on him. Second she has to be able to pierce his armor. This might not be difficult for her but Isley is fast, and he can attack on the move. Teresa has to keep up with Isley, evade his attack and try and attack him with a strong enough attack to pierce his armor. No matter how much help Teresa has, if they are not fast enough to keep up with Isley they will be dead before the fight starts.
In the end, Isley just need to keep the pressure up on Teresa until she runs out of her usable yoki (assuming she can last that long). She can choose to awaken or die as a human. :D

Ok, a group of Claymores with the right techniques could take out Isley.
Eh? First of all, what factor makes it necessary that Teresa is the one who must keep up with Isley?

Why can't Teresa be faster still and therefore move in on Isley while evading his homing arrows, then be at point blank range to twist off his arm? Zeno's motion paradox?

Teresa needs to release only enough to exert the force needed for her Claymore to cut through Isley's hide. So long as she can zero the gap, it's over for Isley.

Enara

2008-07-14, 13:23

All we know for sure about theresa is that she could kick ass.

Awakened

2008-07-14, 13:26

Eh? First of all, what factor makes it necessary that Teresa is the one who must keep up with Isley?

Why can't Teresa be faster still and therefore move in on Isley while evading his homing arrows, then be at point blank range to twist off his arm? Zeno's motion paradox?

Teresa needs to release only enough to exert the force needed for her Claymore to cut through Isley's hide. So long as she can zero the gap, it's over for Isley.

Miria is said to be the fastest Claymore, she had to keep up with Rigaldo. Rigaldo had to keep up with Isley.

irvinethearcher

2008-07-14, 13:27

Zeno's motion paradox?

LOL, i always couldn't bear it how stupid those greeks were to fall for that:heh:

Also, at the moment theresa reaches isley's old position isley will be a few steps ahed. And if theresa reaches his new position isley will again be a few steps ahead. Therefore she will never reach isley. :):):)

chibamonster

2008-07-14, 13:48

@Flar: Naturally if Teresa did not care she would have acted differently. Teresa cared a great deal for villages, making sure they always payed lest they be destroyed by the organization. She used scare tactics to keep them safe. Her handler even comments on her perfect payment record. While she seemed abrasive and aloof we can now easily become aware of just how good intentioned her actions are. She pushed people away from her to keep them safe and scared them to save them. Clare would have had a better life as a human, Teresa was not wrong about that. And as Teresa's heart warmed she never forgot the consequences that would follow her. But Clare had expanded Teresa's heart beyond what she previously allowed herself to do. Much like Galatea's change since the time skip. Galatea and Teresa have always been good people it is just away from the organization they can do good beyond anything they were allowed to do before.

As for what the organization wants controllable AB's seems to be a little different than their goals as they have tried to kill several experiments that would have been very useful towards that ultimate end. We also have become aware that some claymores are more powerful now than many other AB's. Also we see that AB's are not lost and do not have to eat people with Priscilla's new form. There is a lot of information they may or may not have. Unless there are other Islands doing different research with the DHARMA initiative from LOST. Maybe they already know much more than they let on from their initial tests on the main land. Miria mentioned that the organization is experimenting with AB's on the island. We do not know why or should I say for what purpose. While I certainly agree that they have a goal I do not know what it is. Why do they want a controllable AO? There ultimately must be something lurking in the outside world now that requires that fire power to confront. Or their goals are something else entirely.

ANOTHER TERESA VS. UNIVERSE DISCUSSION! CAPS LOCK MEANS IT IS ON!!! (http://lc-capslock.org/images/capslock.jpg)

Even if Rosemary was not AO (which she ultimately was) Teresa's youki sensing against an AO gives her a phenomenal advantage. Remember what Clare, who is weak as a kitten, can easily do against AB's just because of youki sensing? Teresa's youki sensing is straight up hax. It is like Aimbot and Wall hax at the same time. Then she has speed hax with her youki reserves. She might even have God mode or no clip if she releases enough youki. Unlike Clare, Teresa has the fire power and speed to back up her sensing ability. Naturally Teresa has almost unlimited strength. Enough to tear Rosemary's arms off with just her normal no youki release. Couple that with youki sensing and the fact she has enough youki backing her to make even the strongest Claymores and AB's piss themselves, I think she would have a good shot. But alas Teresa is dead. Now, we become aware that Clare will have to kill AO's in Teresa's place.

And as a follow up for Isley vs. Teresa I do not think Isley would go through with the fight. Even if he did win, which naturally is impossible, Riful would become aware of their battle and show up immediately after to finish him off. No, Isley would ask what Teresa wanted, offer her some chocolates and be off on his dandy way. There is one thing that Teresa would absolutely defeat Isley in without any question by anyone: verbal combat. Isley cannot win in a battle of wits against women.

@irvinethearcher: I do not believe Zeno's paradox :P. Nor do I believe in quantum physics. Schroedinger's cat is dead.

khryoleoz

2008-07-14, 13:52

Miria is said to be the fastest Claymore, she had to keep up with Rigaldo. Rigaldo had to keep up with Isley.
So? Teresa is so ridiculously fast that her after image makes her look as if she's just standing there even though she is circling around the continent. And she's so frickin' strong that she pushes the earth down when doing push ups rather than lifting herself up.

BTW, we need some Teresa Facts in order to get these vs issues straight.

PureYoki

2008-07-14, 14:07

ANOTHER TERESA VS. UNIVERSE DISCUSSION!

No, I didn't start it this time. :D

Naturally Teresa has almost unlimited strength. Enough to tear Rosemary's arms off with just her normal no youki release.

Just a quick note, I think Miata or Sophia can also do it.

There is one thing that Teresa would absolutely defeat Isley in without any question by anyone: verbal combat. Isley cannot win in a battle of wits against women.

Or Teresa can simply seduce him, wait for the right moment and cut his head off. :)

Awakened

2008-07-14, 14:11

Ok, People Teresa is not God. Priscilla killed her with a simple pity trick. Two swings and it was over (RIP).

You also have to keep in mind that Teresa was equal to Priscilla in Claymore form. No one predicted that Priscilla would awaken, but everyone predicted that Teresa and Priscilla strength were close.

After Priscilla awakened Teresa would need to awaken also to keep up with Priscilla. This fact alone shows that Teresa cannot twist her way though all AOs.

Priscilla rapid regeneration is also an anti twist weapon.

(AO) Priscilla: I dear you to twist my arm.
Teresa: I pass, I have something to live for, am not prepaid to die.

chibamonster

2008-07-14, 14:16

... Sometimes I wonder if people read the same story I did ... I don't even know if it is worth pointing out issues in this case. ...like how much stronger is than the Abyssals... or why Teresa died as Irene explained... or... never mind.

irvinethearcher

2008-07-14, 14:19

I can not believe it either, this was discussed here so many times :twitch:

PureYoki

2008-07-14, 14:21

Ok, People Teresa is not God.

I think they are just joking. :)

After Priscilla awakened Teresa would need to awaken also to keep up with Priscilla. This fact allow shows that Teresa cannot twist her way though all AOs.

In theory, even Miria can defeat everybody. (Ok, everybody who doesn't know windcutter to defend herself. :D ) With her incredible speed and endless phantoms, she can cut everybody into pieces, nobody can defend himself/herself forever. But in practice, things don't work that way and it all depends on Yagi sensei. :)

KillerYomaFromSpace

2008-07-14, 14:41

Ok, People Teresa is not God.

I disagree

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/3107/claymore1500pq5.jpg

;)

Awakened

2008-07-14, 14:43

I disagree

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/3107/claymore1500pq5.jpg

;)

lol, nice pic

Flar

2008-07-14, 14:46

Still only half a god. I'll give you that she may be a one winged angel, though.

And anyway, what good is it to be a god if you get killed like a newbie by the first AO you meet? :p

KillerYomaFromSpace

2008-07-14, 15:09

And anyway, what good is it to be a god if you get killed like a newbie by the first AO you meet? :p

Its all part of the plan... part of the plan!

Kinematics

2008-07-14, 15:26

Had a thought. If the MIBs were to send Claymores onto the field of battle, and the enemy knew of these elite soldiers, how long do you think it would be before the enemy started using preemptive strikes against every blond-haired (and silver-eyed if they're close enough to tell) person that showed up on the field? You've got these great soldiers who have giant targets painted on their back the instant they show up.

I'm thinking Clarice is part of the next generation of experiments: create Claymores that look like ordinary humans. That's part of the advantage that the ABs have, that they regain their eye and hair color, and are no longer immediate targets on the battlefield.

Oh, and the discussion of the war reminded me -- orphen girls are sent east, and orphen boys are sent north; from my previous post I presume that Miria was wrong about the statement that "they stopped making male warriors". It's been speculated on before, but if we return to the idea that they are still sending warriors to the other continent it becomes fairly obvious that they send the male orphens there, and that they are still using male ABs in the mainland war.

So, it's not that they have been experimenting trying to develop the 'perfect soldier' for 100 years while the war raged on; given the DoD monsters, some had wondered how the Org's side could have survived for so long if they had yet to develop the perfect anti-DoD weapon. So they use the quick-to-awaken males as soldiers, and the slow-to-awaken females for experiments that may help them improve the male soldiers.

On the issue of sending Priscilla vs Teresa... Given their respective power, how could you not expect one of them to awaken when they both went all-out against each other? The MIBs' conversations sounded like petty vindictiveness in enforcing the rules that Teresa must die, but I just can't imagine that they could miss the possibility of an awakening in such a fight, especially given that Priscilla was expected to -surpass- Teresa in the future; in other words, she had not surpassed Teresa yet, and thus they knew she was still weaker than Teresa at the time she was sent.

The experiment was probably thus: What happens when a Claymore with exceptional yoki-suppression control is forced to awaken? In their sister/twin experiments, we know that the one to awaken (Luciela/Alicia) is not the one with the exceptional control; the one with good control is their partner. Perhaps they were trying a variant on that, pushing the partner/support type into awakening, since the partner is the one that keeps the soul safe during awakening because of their ability to suppress the rampant urges.

Obviously that failed (at the time), so any Claymores that exhibit this talent (ie: Clare, to an extent) are of no particular interest for that aspect of their power. Of course it hasn't entirely failed, as we see with how Priscilla is behaving now, but we're 15-20 years after the fact, so its 'timeliness' is a bit lacking.

PureYoki

2008-07-14, 16:49

If the MIBs were to send Claymores onto the field of battle, and the enemy knew of these elite soldiers, how long do you think it would be before the enemy started using preemptive strikes against every blond-haired (and silver-eyed if they're close enough to tell) person that showed up on the field? You've got these great soldiers who have giant targets painted on their back the instant they show up.

Sorry, I didn't understand, what do you mean by "preemptive strike"? :confused:

They should send DODs if they want to take down claymores and both sides will suffer great losses.

I'm thinking Clarice is part of the next generation of experiments: create Claymores that look like ordinary humans. That's part of the advantage that the ABs have, that they regain their eye and hair color, and are no longer immediate targets on the battlefield.

ABs will fight in their awakened forms, what's the point of hiding themselves? Will they carry out stealth missions? :confused:

It's been speculated on before, but if we return to the idea that they are still sending warriors to the other continent it becomes fairly obvious that they send the male orphens there, and that they are still using male ABs in the mainland war.

Or they are producing claymores in the mainland. If all their warriors are male, why do they carry out experiments on female warriors, their physiology are so different! How do their findings on females help them on improving males? :confused:

The experiment was probably thus: What happens when a Claymore with exceptional yoki-suppression control is forced to awaken?

Well, I could tell them if they did ask me. She would awaken and create lots of trouble for them. :D

What would the org. do if Isley, with Priscilla and his army, attacked the org.'s headquarters? Either MIBs are strong enough to counter such threat or the org. is walking on thin ice.

Obviously that failed (at the time), so any Claymores that exhibit this talent (ie: Clare, to an extent) are of no particular interest for that aspect of their power

I don't see much progress on the org.'s side, their best weapon for the time being is Alicia which is far from perfect.

Stream

2008-07-14, 16:52

Ok, People Teresa is not God. Priscilla killed her with a simple pity trick. Two swings and it was over (RIP).

Lets go over the logical flaws in Awakened's argument. :D

You also have to keep in mind that Teresa was equal to Priscilla in Claymore form.

Teresa at 10% defeated Priscilla at 70%. Badly.
So, this is canonically incorrect. :p

No one predicted that Priscilla would awaken, but everyone predicted that Teresa and Priscilla strength were close.

Not really.

After Priscilla awakened Teresa would need to awaken also to keep up with Priscilla.

There's no proof whatsoever to this claim.

This fact alone shows that Teresa cannot twist her way though all AOs.

It's an unwarranted assertion, not a fact. There's absolutely no reason why I should accept that "fact" of yours as true.

Priscilla rapid regeneration is also an anti twist weapon.

Fair enough.

(AO) Priscilla: I dear you to twist my arm.
Teresa: I pass, I have something to live for, am not prepaid to die.

I admit it! I admit! I'm a bit of a grammar/spelling/whatever nazi. SO PLEASE STOP WRITING "prepaid" INSTEAD OF "prepared"! JEEZ.

:bash:

You have no idea how much that gets on my nerves. <.<

PureYoki

2008-07-14, 17:05

Teresa at 10% defeated Priscilla at 70%. Badly.

[OPEN PARENTHESIS]
Teresa 10-29% defeated Priscilla 70-79% pretty badly, true. But as Teresa said Priscilla would become incredibly strong in time and again as Teresa said there wouldn't be a clear winner in the future.
[CLOSE PARENTHESIS]

Ok, go on. :)

Kinematics

2008-07-14, 17:10

Sorry, I didn't understand, what do you mean by "preemptive strike"?

A preemptive strike is:
A first-strike attack ... carried out to destroy an enemy's capacity to respond. A preemptive strike is based on the assumption that the enemy is planning an imminent attack.

In other words, with Claymores' signature looks, as soon as one shows up the enemy knows it, and can direct their efforts against that target immediately so as to minimize its ability to damage them.

They should send DODs if they want to take down claymores and both sides will suffer great losses.

ABs will fight in their awakened forms, what's the point of hiding themselves? Will they carry out stealth missions?

It would of course be most logical to use the DoD units. The key strategic point, though, is to know where to send those units. If you have a number of different battle fronts, you want to know the best way to assign your power units to take down the enemy power units. If the enemy power units are easily recognizable, it gives you a distinct advantage in knowing where to deploy before the enemy starts slaughtering your troops.

Remember, the Org's side has no way to control the ABs after awakening, so all the units that are sent out are sent out in Claymore form. They would gain a notable advantage in being able to send out units that look like ordinary soldiers so that the enemy cannot reliably respond, thus diluting the enemy's strength.

If all their warriors are male, why do they carry out experiments on female warriors, their physiology are so different! How do their findings on females help them on improving males?

Their physiologies are not extremely different. The main advantage of experimenting on females is time; time to perform the experiments and see the results, time to see how modifications made affect the end result. Male Claymores do not give them that time because they awaken too quickly. That's a great advantage on the battlefield where you want them to reach full power immediately, but a disadvantage in the experimental stage where you want to see what can be done to improve your tool.

PureYoki

2008-07-14, 17:27

It would of course be most logical to use the DoD units. The key strategic point, though, is to know where to send those units. If you have a number of different battle fronts, you want to know the best way to assign your power units to take down the enemy power units. If the enemy power units are easily recognizable, it gives you a distinct advantage in knowing where to deploy before the enemy starts slaughtering your troops.

Hmm, DODs are easily recognizable too, how does this give the other side the upper hand? And it's not that easy to distinguish claymores from ordinary soldiers in a crowded army, unless DODs can also read yoki or something. (Claymores can dye their hair or cover their head with a helm. In worst case scenario, they can take suppression pills.)

Remember, the Org's side has no way to control the ABs after awakening, so all the units that are sent out are sent out in Claymore form. They would gain a notable advantage in being able to send out units that look like ordinary soldiers so that the enemy cannot reliably respond, thus diluting the enemy's strength.

I think the org.'s strategy is wrong, they should send powerful female claymores. They can fight side by side with human soldiers.

Their physiologies are not extremely different. The main advantage of experimenting on females is time; time to perform the experiments and see the results, time to see how modifications made affect the end result. Male Claymores do not give them that time because they awaken too quickly. That's a great advantage on the battlefield where you want them to reach full power immediately, but a disadvantage in the experimental stage where you want to see what can be done to improve your tool.

Same modification may cause different effects in males and females but I'm not sure. Yoki affects their bodies in different ways.

Awakened

2008-07-14, 17:37

Lets go over the logical flaws in Awakened's argument. :D

Teresa at 10% defeated Priscilla at 70%. Badly.
So, this is canonically incorrect. :p

I admit it! I admit! I'm a bit of a grammar/spelling/whatever nazi. SO PLEASE STOP WRITING "prepaid" INSTEAD OF "prepared"! JEEZ.

:bash:

You have no idea how much that gets on my nerves. <.<

I will like to point out that Teresa did not win that fight.

Sorry English is not my favorite subject, spell check is my best friend, but sometimes its fails me.

khryoleoz

2008-07-14, 17:47

[OPEN PARENTHESIS]
Teresa 10-29% defeated Priscilla 70-79% pretty badly, true. But as Teresa said Priscilla would become incredibly strong in time and again as Teresa said there wouldn't be a clear winner in the future.
[CLOSE PARENTHESIS]
Ok, go on. :)

Teresa 10-29%? Try 10%. Or even 9.5%.
Priscilla 70-79%? Try >80%.

Why are we focusing on one moment of doubt that she later casts off as the rubbish that it was? She also later said, "bring it any time you want". Who in her right mind says stuff like that afraid that she'll get her ass kicked one day? If you wanna argue that Teresa wasn't in the right state of mind then might as well just call her crazy.

You're putting so much emphasis on this very thing that she said that had been invalidated by her own actions later. Come now.

I will like to point out that Teresa did not win that fight.

Sorry English is not my favorite subject, spell check is my best friend, but sometimes its fails me.

Yeah. She practically threw it away. You can't call it fighting when you're not fighting.

Awakened

2008-07-14, 17:54

Teresa 10-29%? Try 10%. Or even 9.5%.
Priscilla 70-79%? Try >80%.

Why are we focusing on one moment of doubt that she later cast off as the rubbish that it was? She also later said, "bring it any time you want". Who in her right mind says stuff like that afraid that she'll get her ass kicked one day? If you wanna argue that Teresa wasn't in the right state of mind then might as well just call her crazy.

You're putting so much emphasis on this very thing that she said that had been invalidated by her own actions. Come now.

Teresa said it
Ilena said it
The Org said it

The top 4 Claymores acknowledged Priscilla's strength.

Teresa lost

Priscilla is the strongest AO ever (this must mean she was really strong as a Claymore)

Priscilla was inexperienced, not weak (You could have wounded me)

SagaraSouske

2008-07-14, 17:59

I am a firm believer of Priscilla only unlocked most of her potential through awakening. Which ever theory you go by, she seems to be a special case. While her 70-79% release is powerful, it is probably minuscule compare to her awakened form since she have not realized her full potential as a claymore yet. Therefore Teresa 10-29% > Pris 70 - 79% is a tricky judgment on Teresa vs others.

When Teresa commented on Priscilla's latent ability, she is most likely not referring to her power after awakening but only her potential as a claymore. I interpret her words as - "When this girl realized her full potential, I am not sure the out come of our fight will favor me." I don't think Teresa realized herself that she has turned softer because Clare made her more human and this is a pure analytical mind at work when she made the comment since a thought did slip her mind that she should kill Pris right then and there to eliminate a future threat. Judging by that, I would put Priscilla on similar level as Teresa. However, that doesn't mean Pris or Teresa can defeat AO level enemies without awakening themselves. That I do believe is an overestimation of Teresa and Priscilla's power as a claymore, despite being a Teresa fan myself.

Awakened

2008-07-14, 18:01

Yeah. She practically threw it away. You can't call it fighting when you're not fighting.

lol, in a life or death situation, there are no rules, the graveyard is field with honorable men/women/Claymores.

she did what she needed to do to win, in the end the winner is always the victor. lol

PureYoki

2008-07-14, 18:06

Teresa 10-29%? Try 10%. Or even 9.5%.
Priscilla 70-79%? Try >80%.

There's no way to distinguish 10% from 29%. And Priscilla passed 80% after the fight ended.

Why are we focusing on one moment of doubt that she later casts off as the rubbish that it was? She also later said, "bring it any time you want". Who in her right mind says stuff like that afraid that she'll get her ass kicked one day? If you wanna argue that Teresa wasn't in the right state of mind then might as well just call her crazy.

Of course we'll focus on Teresa's words because they're the solid proof of Priscilla's power. If I did focus on Irene's, Rubel's words, I would say Priscilla would surpass Teresa. ;)

And it was not a moment of hesitation, after Priscilla followed her, Teresa said "As things are now however much we fight I'll win." She knew Priscilla would be a worthy opponent one day.

Awakened

2008-07-14, 18:17

Teresa 10-29%? Try 10%. Or even 9.5%.
Priscilla 70-79%? Try >80%.

Why are we focusing on one moment of doubt that she later casts off as the rubbish that it was? She also later said, "bring it any time you want". Who in her right mind says stuff like that afraid that she'll get her ass kicked one day? If you wanna argue that Teresa wasn't in the right state of mind then might as well just call her crazy.

You're putting so much emphasis on this very thing that she said that had been invalidated by her own actions later. Come now.

Yeah. She practically threw it away. You can't call it fighting when you're not fighting.

The Teresa vs. Priscilla fight is not a good indication of Priscilla's potential as a Claymore.

Teresa has been killing ABs by doing the twist, during that time Priscilla was learning how to hold a Claymore.

Teresa was practically playing around with Irene (#2 of the organization), but she had to get serious when she faced Priscilla (right out of boot-camp, she did not have a rank at that time).

khryoleoz

2008-07-14, 18:48

There's no way to distinguish 10% from 29%. And Priscilla passed 80% after the fight ended.
Not by the eye color. But we're talking about a character who doesn't even like to use her power. It's not incredible that she would use her power on the low end.

Of course we'll focus on Teresa's words because they're the solid proof of Priscilla's power. If I did focus on Irene's, Rubel's words, I would say Priscilla would surpass Teresa. ;)
Fine. But those words of her's don't by necessity damn Teresa to an inferior position, especially in light of her later actions.

And it was not a moment of hesitation, after Priscilla followed her, Teresa said "As things are now however much we fight I'll win." She knew Priscilla would be a worthy opponent one day.
I appreciate the way you phrased it. A worthy opponent she would be, inevitably beaten nonetheless.

PureYoki

2008-07-14, 19:00

Not by the eye color. But we're talking about a character who doesn't even like to use her power. It's not incredible that she would use her power on the low end.

No, she would use as much as necessary, maybe some more and we don't know whatever this limit was.

Fine. But those words of her's don't by necessity damn Teresa to an inferior position, especially in light of her later actions.

I believe Priscilla would never surpass Teresa, Teresa would always have the edge (55-45 maybe, I don't know) because Priscilla would always have mental problems.

I appreciate the way you phrased it. A worthy opponent she would be, inevitably beaten nonetheless.

Well, depends. One of them is Real Madrid, the other is Barcelona. ;)

khryoleoz

2008-07-14, 19:34

No, she would use as much as necessary, maybe some more and we don't know whatever this limit was.
Yes. But she wouldn't have needed more than 10%. It was only Priscilla after all.

I believe Priscilla would never surpass Teresa, Teresa would always have the edge (55-45 maybe, I don't know) because Priscilla would always have mental problems.
Good point. Thank you. Take that Fenrir_valindri.

Well, depends. One of them is Real Madrid, the other is Barcelona. ;)
Sorry. Your sports analogy is lost upon me and I'm afraid I can't muster the interest to look it up. I don't follow anything that doesn't involve swim suits in a beach or a racket and skirts.

chibamonster

2008-07-14, 20:32

Interesting that Irene and the org says Priscilla will surpass Teresa, and people accept that knowing Teresa lied about her true strength as even Irene realized and finally admitted later. Priscilla almost landed a surprise attack when she first fought Teresa. That was Irene's plan and it might have worked. If Priscilla had even a portion of the potential Teresa had and got her act together victory in the future would by no means be certain. Especially since Teresa ultimately had no desire to kill her comrade Claymores. Becoming aware of Teresa's intentions will cause you to easily recognize Teresa's true strength of character that eventually got her killed despite her near unlimited power.

Before we go on we may become aware now of how easily Teresa defeated everyone and did not kill them. Ultimately this was not a power discrepancy but a morale superiority that Teresa had over the hunters who were trying to kill her. She did not see them as enemies. From Rosemary's extra chapter we see that Teresa had no desire to kill her comrades, even when she was fit for battle. Because of this morale difference in the fight you have to stop and think of just what was being fought over in Teresa's battle before you come to a conclusion of Teresa's incredible power. She could have massacred them all but chose not to. She even tried to save the girl who wanted to kill her most. And as you think about it now you may already understand just how strong Teresa truly was.

Ultimately Priscilla killing Teresa as Teresa was trying to help her in a moment of mercy is no victory at all. It was not a power level difference. Killing Teresa was hardly a victory because in the process Priscilla became much worse than the very monster she hallucinated that she was fighting. Already we have heard from Irene that Teresa had many chances to easily defeat Priscilla. But that was not her goal. If the discrepancy between Teresa's good intentions and Priscilla's hypocrisy in killing a monster is what leads you to believe Priscilla was the stronger of the two then there is little I can do to help you experience now that Teresa was ultimately stronger in every way except in her intent to hurt her comrades.

^Sakon

2008-07-14, 21:00

Gooral: Not too mention his intelligence ;)

btw, as we now know, the organization's objective is not at all to protect the poor citizens from Yoma, but to create a powerful soldier that obeys them. So it's not too surprising that they try to get rid of Galatea, even if they can only replace her with a weaker "eye". Because she is of no use as soon as she "doubts" the organization and knows too much ... what's more, she might even be dangerous for them. So from their point of view they don't care to replace a strong soldier with a weaker one, as long as they're safe and can continue their experiments. Same for Teresa ... she didn't obey them and actually killed "evil" humans for the sake of protecting somebody, which means she started to follow her own moral standards and therefore would be useless in battle and a potential danger.

On the other hand, Ophelia I'm not too sure .... her way of killing anybody she feels like also makes her a danger.

Ophelia was easy to control, send her to kill awakened beings and she stays happy, hell she even eliminates anyone who might start asking bothersome questions, the org prolly knew all about her, she was predictable, helped in their research by creating ABs on a regular basis, and kept it all cleaned up neat and tidy.

Ryuken

2008-07-14, 22:00

Ultimately Priscilla killing Teresa as Teresa was trying to help her in a moment of mercy is no victory at all. It was not a power level difference. Killing Teresa was hardly a victory because in the process Priscilla became much worse than the very monster she hallucinated that she was fighting. Already we have heard from Irene that Teresa had many chances to easily defeat Priscilla. But that was not her goal. If the discrepancy between Teresa's good intentions and Priscilla's hypocrisy in killing a monster is what leads you to believe Priscilla was the stronger of the two then there is little I can do to help you experience now that Teresa was ultimately stronger in every way except in her intent to hurt her comrades.

Yes @chiba we all know that. @Pure Yoki, people can win by cheating but that doesn't make them true winners now does it. This is also a part of being human, the greatest gift of all. But if someone doesn't realize it then I guess they are not human after all.:)

Stream

2008-07-14, 22:21

Lets get this over with.

Teresa used 10% youki. Irene said so.
Priscilla went over 70% youki. Teresa said so.

Awakened

2008-07-14, 22:29

Lets get this over with.

Teresa used 10% youki. Irene said so.
Priscilla went over 70% youki. Teresa said so.

We all know that Teresa was stronger that Priscilla during that fight. The point was that Priscilla had the potential to be equal to Teresa. Proof of that is Priscilla awakening and becoming the strongest AO in history.

The point of the debate is that Teresa would need to awaken to defeat Ab Priscilla.

The logic behind that is, if their powers were equal as Claymores, then if one increase in power the other one would have to do the same to stay equal.
Yes Teresa could have kill Priscilla many times, but noob Priscilla was not a push over.

Stream

2008-07-14, 22:32

I can't comment much on that, but I can say this:

Teresa at 10% beat Priscilla at 70% badly.
So, we have no real idea how outrageously powerful Teresa at 79.5% Galatea-style would be.

Cyclone

2008-07-14, 22:35

Awakened, does your heretical blasphemy know no bounds?

Chiba, you take the left, I'll attack from the right.
Long Live the Army of Teressa!!!!

(and Teresa did not even need to awaken in order to be stronger than the strongest AO in history - that's just how good Teresa was.)

Awakened

2008-07-14, 22:42

Awakened, does your heretical blasphemy know no bounds?

Chiba, you take the left, I'll attack from the right.
Long Live the Army of Teressa!!!!

lol, the last time I check, Teresa was not a God.

clarakiss~

2008-07-14, 22:44

Long Live the Army of Teressa!!!!

rubbish!! :mad: the army of raki could easily fight them off with just cooking utensils :p jk jk!!

again with the teresa vs priscilla? u.u

Stream

2008-07-14, 23:00

Mhmm. So....

NEW PREDICTION FOR A SURPRISE TWIST!

Galatea regenerates her eyes. First off, we know she's going to try to. Rabona knows she's a claymore now, and she'd be better off with eyes, so there's no reason for her not to try and a good reason for her to try. As a high-ranking single digit defensive type, she's definitely capable of regeneration. I'm saying Galatea will pull it off because it seems like Yagi to just set up that stuff that doesn't happen (like when he made it look like everyone at Pieta died).

SagaraSouske

2008-07-14, 23:53

Item 1: Does Teresa knows her own Strength?
Item 2: What state of mind was Teresa in when she judged Priscilla's potential?
Item 3: After judging Priscilla's potential, did Teresa think about killing her for a second, even though ultimately she changed her mind due to Clare?
Item 4: Why did she think about killing Priscilla and why did Priscilla fear the dark Teresa face in which only her eyes were shown? Was she afraid because for a second there she felt killing intent from Teresa?

IMHO it only makes Teresa even more human if she knowingly gave up a perfect chance of eliminating the only possible threat to herself that she knows of. That makes her final act to 80% Priscilla more endearing then if she never thought Priscilla was a serious competition to her.

Rolyn

2008-07-15, 00:00

omfg teresa is god!!!!

chibamonster

2008-07-15, 00:02

Chibamonster: Okay Cyclone, I'll move in for the flank. You stay here with Teresa to guard her.
Teresa: Really I don't need anyone to ...
Cyclone: :love: I'll stay at my post until victory or death!
*chiba leaves...*
Teresa: Really I do not need any help. You should get back to
*Cyclone whispers something in Teresa's ear*
Teresa: :blush: Well if I knew that is what you had in mind...
...

I am pretty sure Teresa and Clare are Gods in Claymore. They have statues and everything :D. Though not sure which religion as Rabona does not seem to deal with them. I don't see how Teresa not being an immortal deity has anything to do with Priscilla being as strong as her...

HOLY COW! I just thought of something. Clare's awakened form has to have wings because the statue theme Yagi introduced. Well, she doesn't have to.... but she has to.

Meh, Galatea said she could not regenerate her eyes because regeneration even for defensive types is based off of visualization and memory. Maybe she was wrong? I wouldn't mind seeing her eyes again, but I am fine with her light blind and youki savvy. I mean for actual combat she has only gotten better from losing her eyes. The only problem she will have is sensing the ghosts, and as they are her friends, that might not be an issue. She might even figure out a way to sense them. I think Galatea is blind unless she awakens... Although one of the Male AB's from Pieta had a blindfold on and his awakened form had no eyes. So there is that possibility as well.

tenken627

2008-07-15, 00:04

Honestly, I see very little reason for the MiBs to even wish to create Claymores like Teresa and Priscilla. Or even try to recreate Teresa in Clare.

Why do you wish to create super ABs that you know you will have no control over?

Even if it is for research purposes, the ramifications and consequences of having a super AB turning their attention to the Organization are dire.

In fact, Teresa becoming a large problem to deal with by going AWOL should have put that in the MiBs head. In order to deal with Teresa, you risk your other top Claymores and your new unstable project in Priscilla. Add in the fact that almost undoubtedly one of Teresa or Priscilla will turn into a super non-controllable AB to become an addition to a whole set of other uncontrollable ABs roaming around. If it was Teresa who Awakened, there would have been an indestructible force roaming around with revenge on the mind and the ability to destroy the Organization, including Alicia + Beth, in a single blow. And they still tried to create another Teresa by using Clare.

So, why keep on trying to create more and more powerful experimentations without any control parameters? If you get an ultra-powerful Claymore, that's great, but wouldn't it be a better idea to put that Claymore down before it's too late? I'm sure the MiBs aren't above using poison or anything else underhanded.

And from what we know about the other world, the early ABs were sufficient against the DoDs, the problem was control after Awakening. So control is much more important for their purposes than power. Then, what is the point of just keep on continually creating Claymores to Awaken in a non-controlled environment when you already know that they will not follow your orders?

Granted, ABs haven't truly bothered the Organization in the past, but they should have known that in the future that might no longer be the case. And it's not like the more powerful ABs out there would be willing to submit themselves to be researched by the MiBs after they Awakened (or would they??).

Either the Organization has some sort of specific reason for doing their research this way, or they are extremely ignorant and perhaps arrogant in the way they do things.

Rolyn

2008-07-15, 00:07

hopefully alicia goes skitz and kill all... would be kool to see that....

Captain Yoruichi

2008-07-15, 02:20

I'm a little new to Claymore, so I'm wondering when Chapter 82 comes out. Is Claymore weekly, monthly, bimonthly....?

Torri_fay_torren@hot

2008-07-15, 02:23

Hello fellow fanatic of Claymore. :D Claymore is monthly.:(

PureYoki

2008-07-15, 03:44

If the discrepancy between Teresa's good intentions and Priscilla's hypocrisy in killing a monster is what leads you to believe Priscilla was the stronger of the two then there is little I can do to help you experience now that Teresa was ultimately stronger in every way except in her intent to hurt her comrades.

Yes @chiba we all know that. @Pure Yoki, people can win by cheating but that doesn't make them true winners now does it. This is also a part of being human, the greatest gift of all. But if someone doesn't realize it then I guess they are not human after all.:)

I never based my opinions on outcome of their battle, we already know Priscilla was no match for Teresa at that time. Let me give you an example: When Miria first graduated, she was not #6, right? As time passed and she learned how to control the monster inside her for her best use, as she developed new fighting techniques, she became much stronger. As you can see, we're talking in advance and speculating on Priscilla's future strength level.

That said, I would expect Teresa to cut off the head of Priscilla the moment she passed her limit. I still think this was a blunder whatever the reason was, you can't let go of an AB. During their fight, I would expect Teresa to cut Priscilla's sword arm and take her sword. Was it too hard or brutal? :confused:

Sorry. Your sports analogy is lost upon me and I'm afraid I can't muster the interest to look it up. I don't follow anything that doesn't involve swim suits in a beach or a racket and skirts.

So you follow pretty ladies. Yagi is a very wise man who knows how to create interest in his manga. :D

Dreadz!

2008-07-15, 05:17

Just one thing about priscilla cutting both Teresa's arms i still cant get... it was so obvious that priscilla is making a slow move with her right arm towards her sword nearby. i mean, not only Teresa's super-mega-i-can-sense-your-moves-before-you-actually-move youki sensing should be enough, even common sense and reactions of a warrior(who is aways supposed to watch his opponent) should have been more than needed to prevent, block, or atleast move out of line of swing.

I tend to think that it was just Yagi's mistake(he couldnt think of other way Priscilla killing Teresa), there is no way Teresa could not see that attack coming. Not somebody THAT uber as her. God, i'd even be satisfied with some rock dropping on Teresa from sky, it doesnt have youki to sense at least...

evil_kenshin

2008-07-15, 05:35

Ryuken

2008-07-15, 05:52

That said, I would expect Teresa to cut off the head of Priscilla the moment she passed her limit. I still think this was a blunder whatever the reason was, you can't let go of an AB.

It was no blunder my friend. It was love that got her killed, belive it or not.:)

PureYoki

2008-07-15, 06:03

It was no blunder my friend. It was love that got her killed, belive it or not.:)

Well, she didn't kill claymore Priscilla and I respect that decision but after Priscilla passed her limit, she should have killed Priscilla immediately. This is not about love, this is about common sense. Priscilla ate all the people in four towns after she killed Teresa. Isn't it Teresa's fault, although indirectly? :confused:

Awakened

2008-07-15, 06:12

Well, she didn't kill claymore Priscilla and I respect that decision but after Priscilla passed her limit, she should have killed Priscilla immediately. This is not about love, this is about common sense. Priscilla ate all the people in four towns after she killed Teresa. Isn't it Teresa's fault, although indirectly? :confused:

Lol, its the Org and Priscilla's falt, not Teresa.

Will you blame Hitler's Mother for what he did?

Ryuken

2008-07-15, 06:13

Well, she didn't kill claymore Priscilla and I respect that decision but after Priscilla passed her limit, she should have killed Priscilla immediately. This is not about love, this is about common sense. Priscilla ate all the people in four towns after she killed Teresa. Isn't it Teresa's fault, although indirectly? :confused:

No my friend, you do not understsnd. She would have killed the claymore Priscilla, she would have killed the instant she passed her limit with out any hesitation. But she didn't and it was because of Clare. Why do you not see this simple point.:)

PureYoki

2008-07-15, 07:11

How could Hitler's mother know what Hitler would do in the future? :confused:

Teresa knew if she didn't kill Priscilla, Priscilla would kill lots of innocent people. I don't say Teresa is the only one to blame in this situation.

The org. was faulty, they knew Priscilla or Teresa might awaken in such a big fight.

Priscilla was faulty, but less faulty than the org., she was still a child, maybe not physically but mentally. To what extent can we criticize the actions of a child?

Teresa was faulty, she knew the consequences of letting Priscilla go, she was the only one who could stop her at the moment. Her love for Clare doesn't mean she should ignore other people. Clare loves Raki but she still kills monsters, and it's the right thing to do.

Awakened

2008-07-15, 07:28

chibamonster

2008-07-15, 07:49

Yup Teresa dropped her youki back down below 10%. I wonder what Teresa was thinking in that moment. She looks sad for Priscilla. A moment earlier she had been warning Priscilla and trying to help her, but Priscilla refused and pushed her youki further and crossed her limit. Teresa had not wanted to kill the girl, but now Priscilla asked for her help so she could die with at least a shred of humanity. Priscilla had crossed her limit but the transformation was not yet complete. That was all Teresa could do, as she said herself; put Priscilla out of her misery before the transformation was complete.

If by big moves you mean Priscilla moving her fingers an inch then maybe that is why Teresa didn't sense it. And it very well could have been Priscilla's last act as a human to kill Teresa. If that is the case then Teresa's mercy was absolutely exploited because Teresa would sense that Priscilla still had not completely become an AB yet. We know from the extra chapter that Teresa shows no mercy to Awakened Beings. But Priscilla still had humanity in her when Teresa made her offer. Humanity that was uncontrollably draining away. I used to think that it may have been Priscilla's youki that made her strike out, but now I am leaning towards Priscilla killing Teresa as the last thing she did as a Claymore. The confusion of awakening certainly didn't help, but I think it was a choice Prissy made.

khryoleoz

2008-07-15, 09:18

What's the problem with the idea that Teresa was duped? Save for the killing intent, nothing Priscilla did had in itself the power to kill Teresa, but needed her cooperation, which cooperation Teresa gave by dropping her guard believing the fight had ended. It was the perfect, final result of her heart having gone soft.

Depending on where you see the cause/effect relationship, heck Priss's awakening was Teresa's fault long before their battle, when Teresa denied the org's consequences and walked away. Teresa is so powerful that during each stage of Priscilla's development it was Teresa who was the determining factor of that development's outcome?

Holy moly! She is god, and like this other One, died vicariously for the sin of another.

I would disagree that its Teresa's fault, she was about to do exactly what you wanted her to do. The mistake she made was not keeping her guard up
See, your calling it a mistake too as though Teresa could have done otherwise. What was one who had the heart and state of mind of Teresa, distracted by Clare, believing that the fight was over with her enemy unarmed and on the ground professing surrender and asking for the mercy of death to do? Teresa's choice under those circumstances had been inevitable...and so was Priscilla's, which she had resolved to long before.

Talking out those arms was strategically important. Not only did it remove any means by which Teresa can defend herself and continue the fight, it created another distraction and even stunned Teresa. I'll say it again that it was a calculated move and not some involuntary spasm that by fortuitous circumstances happened to produce results.

PGilis

2008-07-15, 09:48

Teresa knew if she didn't kill Priscilla, Priscilla would kill lots of innocent people. I don't say Teresa is the only one to blame in this situation.

The org. was faulty, they knew Priscilla or Teresa might awaken in such a big fight.

Priscilla was faulty, but less faulty than the org., she was still a child, maybe not physically but mentally. To what extent can we criticize the actions of a child?

Teresa was faulty, she knew the consequences of letting Priscilla go, she was the only one who could stop her at the moment. Her love for Clare doesn't mean she should ignore other people. Clare loves Raki but she still kills monsters, and it's the right thing to do.

But Teresa was not trying to kill a monster... she was trying to save a human being. There was still time/hope to save Priscilla from herself and avoid for her to become a monster, but Priscilla was not listening until it was too late. In the end she like an evil being used Teresa's gentleness and humanity against her.

Of course, Terese knew the consequences if Priscilla awake, but at the same time she was not completely lost yet. Teresa already killed humans, but never anyone innocent, specially someone who was trying to do what she believes to be the 'right thing'. Not long ago Priscilla herself was the one trying to protect humans from someone who killed many of them... even not being exactly 'innocent people'. :heh:

PureYoki

2008-07-15, 10:16

But Teresa was not trying to kill a monster... she was trying to save a human being. There was still time/hope to save Priscilla from herself and avoid for her to become a monster, but Priscilla was not listening until it was too late. In the end she like an evil being used Teresa's gentleness and humanity against her.

Of course, Terese knew the consequences if Priscilla awake, but at the same time she was not completely lost yet. Teresa already killed humans, but never anyone innocent, specially someone who was trying to do what she believes to be the 'right thing'.

Teresa knew Priscilla passed her limit and would awaken soon. She had plenty of time to kill Priscilla and Priscilla's death would actually be a salvation for herself. But instead Teresa fell for the oldest trick in the book and let her guard down. Not only she lost her own life but also caused Priscilla to awaken and go on a rampage.

I still insist Teresa should have killed Priscilla the moment Priscilla passed her limit. It was a serious weakness, it was a big mistake. A mistake who has cost her her own life.

PGilis

2008-07-15, 10:50

As far i remember, Irene said during all the time Priscilla was fighting (and losing to) Teresa she didn't crossed her limit yet. When Teresa beat her again and Priscilla was on the ground, she could go back to human form if she stop fighting and drop her youki. But she didn't, atacking once again Teresa and just then she crossed her limit and started awaking.

Just then Irene told it was too late now. Teresa was getting ready to kill Priscilla, when she used that dirty trick and killed her first.

Ryuken

2008-07-15, 11:08

Not only she lost her own life but also caused Priscilla to awaken and go on a rampage.

Now was it Teresa's fault or the orgs fault for sending Prissy in the first place. You seem to confused beyond the point of reason and judgment my friend.:)

PureYoki

2008-07-15, 11:29

Now was it Teresa's fault or the orgs fault for sending Prissy in the first place. You seem to confused beyond the point of reason and judgment my friend.:)

The org.'s fault was to send Priscilla.

Teresa's fault was to let Priscilla kill her and then eat every human being around.

Well, if you say that to let someone kill you is reasonable, yes, I'm not reasonable. :D

@ PGilis:

Yes, this is my point. Teresa let guard down against Priscilla who passed her limit. If Teresa wanted to, she could kill Priscilla but she hesitated and her hesitation was a deadly mistake.

Hey folks, I don't understand your point. Do you say that if you were Teresa, you would also have pity, let your guard down and get killed?! I say this was a mistake, wasn't it?! :confused:

Korinov

2008-07-15, 12:02

If I were Teresa, I would have killed every Claymore sent to take my head. As simple as that. Knowing how the Org thinks and works... and maybe Irene, Noel and Sophia were no direct danger for her, but the simple fact that they've seen her in combat and know about her techniques and habilities, make them "dangerous".

Teresa was really naive.

Gooral

2008-07-15, 12:07

(...)
Hey folks, I don't understand your point. Do you say that if you were Teresa, you would also have pity, let your guard down and get killed?! I say this was a mistake, wasn't it?! :confused:
I'm not agreeing with you that it was Teresa's fault that people were killed by Priscilla. Basically you're saying that we should kill someone with a gun threatening that he will kill people despite the fact he's begging for mercy moment later. Why would we need to hear what he has to say, let's put a bullet in his head immediately and if he actually kills someone it's our fault.
And mind you Teresa would kill Priscilla nonetheless but Yagi cheated and paralyzed her.

PureYoki

2008-07-15, 12:18

Basically you're saying that we should kill someone with a gun threatening that he will kill people despite the fact he's begging for mercy moment later. Why would we need to hear what he has to say, let's put a bullet in his head immediately and if he actually kills someone it's our fault.
And mind you Teresa would kill Priscilla nonetheless but Yagi cheated and paralyzed her.

This is not a good example, because:

1) Priscilla had direct orders to kill Teresa and she did try to kill Teresa.

2) After Priscilla passed her limit, she would be an AB and eat human guts.

3) Even if you have pity, you don't have to lower your guard, do you?

4) If lives of many people depend on me and I die because of a stupid mistake, I will be kinda responsible.

Kinematics

2008-07-15, 13:38

Hey folks, I don't understand your point. Do you say that if you were Teresa, you would also have pity, let your guard down and get killed?! I say this was a mistake, wasn't it?!

A mistake, yes. However you're looking at it from the view of someone who has had months to read, review and analyze the data, as well as see the full long-term outcome of the actions. Basicly, a classic case of "Hindsight is 20/20". In addition you're also trying to assign blame, which is another matter entirely.

Can you put yourself in Teresa's position and say the same thing? Forget everything you know about the remainder of the series (including the actions Priscilla is about to take, but excluding ES1); feel the transition from the cold-hearted warrior to someone with a reason to live, someone who had experienced real happiness for the first in who knows how long; become someone for whom life is now a little more important than death; include the belief that (per ES1) you are a monster, but that you don't want Clare to see you as such? With that mindset fully held within you, can you say that you would always (not just sometimes) absolutely act differently?

PGilis

2008-07-15, 13:48

Teresa's fault was to let Priscilla kill her and then eat every human being around.

Well, you can bet in that split second - between have her arms cut off and have her head choped of - Teresa was blaming herself for believe in Priscilla, too. :heh:

@ PGilis:

Yes, this is my point. Teresa let guard down against Priscilla who passed her limit. If Teresa wanted to, she could kill Priscilla but she hesitated and her hesitation was a deadly mistake.

Hey folks, I don't understand your point. Do you say that if you were Teresa, you would also have pity, let your guard down and get killed?! I say this was a mistake, wasn't it?! :confused:

Yeah, it was Teresa's mistake to believe in Priscilla in that awaking state, but i think it is unfair to blame her for every death A.O.Priscilla caused after that. After all, how could she know Priscilla's human side - who was there begging for help - was not strong enough to keep her youma side under control? That is, if WAS really the youma side of Priscilla who killed her...

It was Priscilla's blind stupidicy what caused her to awake, not Teresa's fault. Since the beggining everyone was telling her to control herself, but she didn't listen anyone.

Teresa believed in her human side and paid the price for that mistake. If she or any other Claymore must kill anyone going close to her limit without care if her human side is in the control or not, then:

1) Raki should have let Galk decapitate Clare in Rabona's Arc;
2) Instead using her power to bring Clare back, Galatea should have decapitated Clare in Witch's Arc;
3) Clare should have decapitated Jean when she as almost awaked;
4) Jean should have let Helen decapitate Clare in War in the North's Arc;
5) All the Fab-4 - Miria, Clare, Deneve and Helen - must be killed right away;
6) The Org is right! No mercy for ANY Claymore going close to awake... Alicia and Beth included!!! :heh:

PureYoki

2008-07-15, 14:03

Can you put yourself in Teresa's position and say the same thing?

I already did. I didn't know about the manga before I watched the anime and when I first saw this scene in the anime, before Teresa was killed, I was yelling "Kill her, dammit!" :D

And even worse, I didn't know ABs, especially powerful ones, were that dangerous at the time, I didn't have Teresa's knowledge. If I did have this knowledge, I wouldn't hesitate a moment.

And about Clare: If Teresa beheaded Priscilla, do you think Clare would hate Teresa? No, I'm sure she wouldn't. Clare had already seen Teresa killing yoma and humans, she was fully aware of Teresa's nature. Teresa could kill Priscilla and live happily ever after with Clare.

Clare did give Teresa a reason to live but she blew her chance. :(

chibamonster

2008-07-15, 14:20

I am with PGilis and Kinematics on this one. Teresa made a mistake, but an understandable one given her character. That is the main thing is looking at her character, not projecting our own character on her. If I were in Teresa's shoes and had her power things would have been very very different. I don't think I would let anyone off who tried to kill me with wounds they could regenerate by focusing... if I let them live at all. But if I were Teresa then the story would not be Claymore now would it? Personally I don't know if I am that opposed to awakening... :uhoh:

There are plenty of characters who make mistakes in Claymore, which are then understandable because of their personalities. That is one of the reasons I like the story. Rigardo's attitude also led to his downfall as he also had plenty of chances to kill Clare before she got her youki-drunken boxing going. The 6 armed AB wanted to sadistically torture the fab 4. Given his personality it made sense. Galatea was mistaken in her belief that warriors from the organization would prioritize killing an AB over her own head. Ophelia made the mistake of attacking Irene thinking she was just a human.

I certainly understand the frustration with what Teresa did and what happened to her because of it, especially because she did not deserve it. She was exploited for being good and merciful which flies in the face of just about every shonen theme there is. We don't see Clare running around saying, "I will protect my nakama and I won't kill my enemies, I will protect Konoha and save..." you get the idea. Claymore has real loss, and often it is not fair. And all of you who think Claymore has gotten soft, just wait.