Romance in Code Geass (Take 3)

[Narona]

Thanks for the link. Per Kaio's description, Kallen is only lacking in the support attack category. In other words, one on one she's just as strong as Suzaku. Suzaku only gets a boost in helping others, if I understand the system.

As for answering the questions, do you honestly expect them to come right out and say, "so and so would kick the other's ass" or "Lelouch loved X"? There are some things better left unsaid.
I can't read japanese, what was more funny than that is C.C.'s stats. 0-0-0... :heh:

I am not the only fan (and i know some cluclu fans at least here, who think like me) who wants those official answers. So personally, I don't think it's better to leave that unsaid. I don't fear their answers at all. But maybe some other fans do

[morbosfist]

I can't read japanese, what was more funny than that is C.C.'s stats. 0-0-0... :heh:

I am not the only fan (and i know some cluclu fans at least here, who think like me) who wants those official answers. So personally, I don't think it's better to leave that unsaid. I don't fear their answers at all. But maybe some other fans doLook at it from their point of view. I would very much like them to say Kallen can beat Suzaku when he's outright superhuman (funny fact, they've said Sayoko could beat him hand to hand), but in their position I would not give up such information. I might say they both have their strengths, but never an absolute. Some things are better to leave for the viewers to decide.

[incorrupts]

I can't read japanese, what was more funny than that is C.C.'s stats. 0-0-0... :heh:

I am not the only fan (and i know some cluclu fans at least here, who think like me) who wants those official answers. So personally, I don't think it's better to leave that unsaid. I don't fear their answers at all. But maybe some other fans do

Personally i don't think there are answers. CG was "built" that way so romance was left kinda unresolved either cause it was NOT the major part of the show or cause the writers decided to leave it up to interpretation, not because it would screw with fans, but because sometimes series end like these.
And frankly, i don't think anyone will come up and say "oh you know, Lulu secretly wanted to tap this and that." There is a reason that something was not blatantly shown in the course of the series.

[Narona]

Look at it from their point of view. I would very much like them to say Kallen can beat Suzaku when he's outright superhuman (funny fact, they've said Sayoko could beat him hand to hand), but in their position I would not give up such information. I might say they both have their strengths, but never an absolute. Some things are better to leave for the viewers to decide.
I am curious, personally, are you afraid that they might say something that you are not ok with?

We should make a poll about this :heehee: . Contrary to popular beliefs, I think that lots of people would prefer some official answers.

[Narona]

Personally i don't think there are answers. CG was "built" that way so romance was left kinda unresolved either cause it was NOT the major part of the show or cause the writers decided to leave it up to interpretation, not because it would screw with fans, but because sometimes series end like these.
And frankly, i don't think anyone will come up and say "oh you know, Lulu secretly wanted to tap this and that." There is a reason that something was not blatantly shown in the course of the series.
I was not talking about romance only. There are also for example the suzakuVSKallen thing, the gender of ougi and villetta baby, etc etc.

[morbosfist]

I am curious, personally, are you afraid that they might say something that you are not ok with?

We should make a poll about this :heehee: . Contrary to popular beliefs, I think that lots of people would prefer some official answers.I can deal with them saying something I'm not ok with, not that it's happened yet. I've actually been pretty satisfied. I'm just trying to look at it from their point of view. I'm sure a lot of people would like official answers, and any poll to that effect would probably be overwhelmingly positive.

[lovecakecookies]

Well-played.

But srsly now, if i were Taniguchi i would never answer this, i would not want raging-fans that rage about romance as well, enough with the plot and stuff, could not afford to have romance-get-out too. I'm pretty sure he thinks this as well.
OR that he has not made up his mind even after the finale. :P


isn't that why he left it for the fans?

[incorrupts]

I was not talking about romance only. There are also for example the suzakuVSKallen thing, the gender of ougi and villetta baby, etc etc.

Well welcome to Neon Genesis Evangelion world, wanna go there for un-answered questions? XD

Some things are left un-answered, either cause of time running out, either cause writers decided not to answer it, maybe to cash-cow it later and a hundreds reasons you can come up with.
There are always evidences, each one gathers the materials and draws his own conclusions.

[Narona]

There are always evidences, each one gathers the materials and draws his own conclusions.
Thera are evidences of the gend of villetta's baby? O_o

Just kidding. The best evidence would be to expect that it is a girl and resembles her mom XD

[demon_god04]

Well-played.

But srsly now, if i were Taniguchi i would never answer this, i would not want raging-fans that rage about romance as well, enough with the plot and stuff, could not afford to have romance-get-out too. I'm pretty sure he thinks this as well.
OR that he has not made up his mind even after the finale. :P


Frankly I could care less about the romance answers as I got what I wanted already so that is fine. I'd rather Taniguchi answer some questions about the ending in general and the events leading up to it. That is what I am really interested in. Plus more about his original plans and the direction he intended with R2 should he be allowed to have kept the old timeslot.

[morbosfist]

Thera are evidences of the gend of villetta's baby? O_o

Just kidding. The best evidence would be to expect that it is a girl and resembles her mom XDHere we can agree. A little Villetta would do well in the world, particularly if she inherited her mother's rarely-seen badassery. A little Ohgi, not so much.

[incorrupts]

Thera are evidences of the gend of villetta's baby? O_o

Just kidding. The best evidence would be to expect that it is a girl and resembles her mom XD

Well exactly because of that. I mean, someone says the gender is male, then someone else will ask "oh, wait, is he gonna have his papa hair?" "mama eyes"?
At one point, you gotta draw a line, so NO more questions are being raised. "^^

[Narona]

Here we can agree. A little Villetta would do well in the world, particularly if she inherited her mother's rarely-seen badassery. A little Ohgi, not so much.
ON THAT, yeah we can agree :heh:
I would like to see a drawing of their daughter if she resembles Villetta. I mean, we didn't get any artworks of young villetta :)

[X_Danny_X]

I didn't say that as proof of suzaku superiority. I don't even know who made up those stats to begin with. But in the official cards, Suzaku has better stats, so the one who made up those stats thought that suzaku was better. Given how it turned in 25, I expected to see the opposite.

I wonder why the editors of the mags don't ask the good quetsion to okouchi and taniguchi like:

- Who was the better pilot between those two?

or

- Who was lelouch's LI?

XD It would end a lot of discussions.


the thing is they dont want to piss off any entired fanbase so the fans still be not upset or disappointed. it is like the same with some romance battles, like Tifa/Aries. After reading what the writer of FF7 said about the possible outcome, he never came to a conclusion and didnt took sides and let the fans decided what they think. He just basically danced around the issue trying to not take sides and not lose half of the fanbase since the more people interested the more the series will live on and money can be made with sequels, merchandise, etc.

overall the Kallen and Suzaku are just equal and other pilots like Toudou, Xing-ke, are just as good as them, they just didnt get better KMFs at the end like Suzaku and Kallen. Kallen and Suzaku's last battle ended in a draw again.

I can ripped apart Morofists post and tell my side. but i realized that the writers are not going to give a definite answer and people would be arguing for ever.

[dec4rhapsody]

What does Suzaku and Kallen's piloting skills have to do w/ romance in CG?

Because I WANT TO SHIP THEM a la Max et Milia!
DAMN, aces MUST get together.

[dec4rhapsody]

You really should stop giving people the wrong idea about what to expect, since we have no clue. :heh:
From the looks, its not even going to be C.C. but ten-year old girl C.C.. It falls within that time period unless I'm mistaken. I wouldn't even be surprised if that's the focus of the PD.

It... DID came....
I mean PD4.

Lelouch sent his second Ashford-invitation-card.

[Spring_sakura111]

It... DID came....
I mean PD4.

Lelouch sent his second Ashford-invitation-card.

Ahh..What? New picture drama? Where? O.O Are there some C.C. X Lulu goodness involved there?

[Lie]

It... DID came....
I mean PD4.

Lelouch sent his second Ashford-invitation-card.

Wouldn't know, don't have the audio yet. I'll be picking up the DVD tomorrow, but from what I've heard from my friends, its not just ruruc. There's also rurukare, supposedly anyway.
You like making things overly negative/exagurated recently. :heh:

[Lolipopo]

From what I heard about this PD, It's make totally for fanservice and get a lot of teasing between the three (which are working as spies or something like that...) to the point that the person were talking about some threesome...-_-'
If that' it, it's not really a surprise...with their hot hot hot looks...-_-'

[zvadimz]

Why isnt there Lulu x Shirley in a poll? I think it was moer likely to happen after CCx Lulu( i support both pairings))

[NyxOne]

This poll was made after Shirley died.

[Rising Dragon]

The mods on AS only put up "surviving" pairings. So if one of the two components of your preferred pairing bites it at some point in the show, you're pretty much screwed when it comes to the latest poll.

[bladeofdarkness]

ironic
dont you think :heh:

[demon_god04]

It'd be funny if they made a poll for after CG ended.... :heh:

[Nogitsune]

That may be fine, but it still does not change the fact. There are countless ways for Nina to redeem herself and not every single one of them involves her going through the demon's gate to get it.

Well, Lelouch certainly wouldn't have risked being betrayed by her if he hadn't really, really needed her anyway.
Hm... did I miss something, or did he not even use Geass on her even though he could have?
If that's the case, does that mean he was in love with her? Because, really, she could have ruined his whole plan if she had gone into revenge-mode again.

We're forgetting Rivalz, who was used as well. Did he have something to make up for by being turned into a delivery boy?

Maybe I should re-watch the episode... but as long as Rivalz didn't get himself killed, his future still wasn't in any danger.
Same goes for Nina.
Kallen was the one who would have suffered most if Lelouch had "used" her.

Lelouch was afraid she might suffer? He thought she was dead, and after he said he was doing it for everyone not just her. When he confronted her he used her (Geass) to get Damocles.

Yes, but before doing that, he realized that Nunally (and Schneizel) did have something similar to Zero Requiem in mind, and he was really relieved that she had found her own way.
I'm sure he would have hesistated some more if that hadn't been the case.

But when it comes down to it, Lelouch's plan was his top priority and that brings us full circle. If it was his top priority, and he was using everyone to achieve it, why does he not use Kallen?

Wait. That would mean Kallen was more or at least as important to Lelouch as Nunally.
And even if I did believe he was in love with her, I still wouldn't agree with this interpretation.

It doesn't matter how certain he is in Suzaku, that is still a gambit leaving the other most powerful entity on the battlefield on the otherside.

That just proves how much faith the had in Suzaku.
Don't get me wrong, I do think that Kallen (along with C.C.) did probably come right after Suzaku on Lelouch's "favourite people who are still breathing"-list.
But I also believe that he wouldn't have risked Rivalz or at least Milly's future, either, had they been in her place.

And that's the point. She's an invaluable asset but he doesn't tell her because she'd be broken by it.

Yes, broken. And that's exactly the point.
Whenever Lelouch used someone important to him, he tried to make sure that they didn't get into too much trouble because of it.
"Breaking" one of his closest friends (after Suaku, of course ;P) would have destroyed the bittersweet ending he was supposed to get.

He won on a gambit, making it a risk to not include Kallen who did the most to deter his plans. That's a rather high risk, the world, just because you don't want to make someone feel guilty.

Maybe the "guilty" thing was an underestimation.
Still, Lelouch loving Kallen romantically would still not explain his behaviour any better than loving her as a friend.

I'll also ask, since when has Lelouch cared about the guilt of others? I don't remember him having much of a problem with pushing Kallen forward before when she was also his friend. Why does it suddenly do a dime-turn now?

I'd say because she was a much closer friend to him now than in the beginning. And because after chosing the path of Zero Requiem, Lelouch was a lot more... balanced than before.

You'd think that wouldn't need to apply to someone like Kallen whom he did not get a protective mode around in the first season because she was more than capable. There's a clear evolution here.

Never denied that.
I'm only saying that all this doesn't convince me that he is in love with her.

The part that I am referring to was C.C. quoting Lelouch's methods, not Marianne.

Yes, his but where did C.C. suddenly get that from?
Lelouch quotes her later on when he is confronted with his parents - therefore, I always assumed that Marianne told C.C. something similar once.

Ya... let's. :heh: Maybe even Arthur would have needed to look out.

Exactly. xD

[Frostfire]

Well, Lelouch certainly wouldn't have risked being betrayed by her if he hadn't really, really needed her anyway.
Hm... did I miss something, or did he not even use Geass on her even though he could have?
If that's the case, does that mean he was in lov with her? Because, really, she could have ruined his whole plan if she had gone into revenge-mode again.

Lelouch said himself he was gambling on her because of her connection to Euphemia, they even had a blooming talk about the entire thing between them when Nina agreed officially to help, for Euphemia. She hadn't even technically agreed to help when she was abducted as the 'VIP'. You don't need to Geass someone to be using them. It's not like Lelouch needed to Geass Diethard when he was part of the Order.

Oh come on, you are making an absolutely attrocious point with 'was he in luv with her'. Its a piss poor argument and you know it, especially since the show showed how much of a gamble taking her was to begin with but she was always in his pocket if needed because of Euphemia and FREIJA. There is nothing to show the opposite for Kallen, she has no reason to go revenge mode on Lelouch or try to kill him. But the moment she is not included she does gain that capability. Do you not notice the whole circle here? Nina could have always been a thorn in Lelouch's side but a useful tool, and one he willingly accepted. Kallen, who was not a thorn in his side and wouldn't have been given the right words and could have been a very useful tool, became one and wasn't used by Lelouch.

Either he's an absolute idiot or he did not want Kallen involved for other reasons than "I don't need her." Going by the show, I'd say the latter.


Maybe I should re-watch the episode... but as long as Rivalz didn't get himself killed, his future still wasn't in any danger.
Same goes for Nina.
Kallen was the one who would have suffered most if Lelouch had "used" her.

He had guns pointed at him by Geassed civilians. What happens if he refuses to hand over Nina? Rivalz was in danger, he was a delivery boy, a messenger. Guess who always gets shot first? The messenger.

And how was Nina not in any danger? She was on the most targeted ship in the war. If it went down, she went down. If one thing went wrong she was dead. She was in one hell of a perilous situation, and that is why they had to lie through their teeth to survive.

I'm seriously lost now. What are you arguing then? If you know that he did not involve Kallen for reasons other than "I don't need her", which you just said was not the reason, what is being talked over?


Yes, but before doing that, he realized that Nunally (and Schneizel) did have something similar to Zero Requiem in mind, and he was really relieved that she had found her own way.
I'm sure he would have hesistated some more if that hadn't been the case.

He was? He seemed really broken when he found her and had to fight her. He may have been proud of her independence... but how is that relevant to him using her?

The show quite clearly told us that he wasn't going to hesitate. "I'm doing this for the world, not just Nunally." Were his words, more or less. You can't just say "If this then that", I can say that too. "If aliens invaded, Lelouch would have become their king." Doesn't work.


Wait. That would mean Kallen was more or at least as important to Lelouch as Nunally.
And even if I did believe he was in love with her, I still wouldn't agree with this interpretation.

Then explain what would compell him to gamble the world. It doesn't matter how his plan turns out in the end, we all knew he would win. He still gambled the world by not having Kallen follow him.

And where did I say she was as important as Nunally? Lelouch gambled the world for Nunally time and again until he had resolved himself that she was dead. Kallen wasn't dead. Notice the difference?

Let us not forget a key difference also that HE THOUGHT NUNALLY WAS DEAD WHEN THIS HAPPENED. Is Kallen more important than a dead Nunally? Especially when we know he was resolved to do whatever he had too? I'd say yes.

I think this needs to be expressed again: HE THOUGHT NUNALLY WAS DEAD WHEN THIS HAPPENED.

That just proves how much faith the had in Suzaku.
Don't get me wrong, I do think that Kallen (along with C.C.) did probably come right after Suzaku on Lelouch's "favourite people who are still breathing"-list.
But I also believe that he wouldn't have risked Rivalz or at least Milly's future, either, had they been in her place.

He risked Rivalz's future pretty easily, Nina's too. Milly he simply never met, as before this falls as a moot point.

I also don't really like this type of logic. He may have had faith in Suzaku but when the show explicitly tells you that they are losing, you have to wonder just how sure of themselves they were. Couple that with the fact that they nearly lost several times, surviving by chance more than anything else, you have to wonder.

Sure they succeeded, a blind man can also shoot a bullseye. They won because of luck and plot device not because of realistic reasons.


Yes, broken. And that's exactly the point.
Whenever Lelouch used someone important to him, he tried to make sure that they didn't get into too much trouble because of it.
"Breaking" one of his closest friends (after Suaku, of course ;P) would have destroyed the bittersweet ending he was supposed to get.

Yet, again, he puts Rivalz in danger, Nina in danger, but when its Kallen, "Oh he'd have done it for everyone." What? Whenever Lelouch used anyone in the past he made sure that was true (Shirley for example), putting someone in the middle of a warzone (Nina) is not making sure they are safe.

He took lengths after the fact, sure enough, but how does that remedy him putting them in danger in the first place. I'm not going to throw someone into a lion's den, pull them out half an hour later, and go on like nothing happened.


Maybe the "guilty" thing was an underestimation.
Still, Lelouch loving Kallen romantically would still not explain his behaviour any better than loving her as a friend.

Lelouch loving Kallen is superfluous, its not even the discussion. This is about you putting her on a generic peg of "he'd have done it for anyone". Skyless was right that people here run like scared rabits the moment Kallen may, by some chance, be seen as more than just another friend too Lelouch. You know, just like Suzaku and Shirley. No one's going to jump on me for saying Shirley though. :rolleyes:

I've shown you time and again. He did not treat her like his other friends in the finally. He threw Nina and Rivalz in a lion's den and then later pulled them out, to reuse what I said before, but he kept Kallen out of it entirely. There's a notable difference.


I'd say because she was a much closer friend to him now than in the beginning. And because after chosing the path of Zero Requiem, Lelouch was a lot more... balanced than before.

Ahh, the proverbial much closer friend. Because, when she was captured, they had a lot of time to be real chummy. Couldn't have anything to maybe do with him actually caring for as more than just another friend, one of those after-loss realizations. No couldn't be that.


Never denied that.
I'm only saying that all this doesn't convince me that he is in love with her.


I'm not arguing that he's in love with her, I'm arguing against this annoying dismission of "he'd have done it for anyone else". Freudian logic at its absolute most broken and misused form.

Did Lelouch's evolve some desire to be all super protective of Milly? She was a fine standing woman and a close friend. I, however, don't remember him risking anything to keep her safe. I even remember using her and everyone else as pieces against Suzaku in Season 1.

Evolution present towards one character to a rather extreme level, who is a friend, yet not present in another equally feminine and self-standing character, who is also a friend, somehow equates to the two being equal? How?


Yes, his but where did C.C. suddenly get that from?
Lelouch quotes her later on when he is confronted with his parents - therefore, I always assumed that Marianne told C.C. something similar once.


From how Lelouch treated Shirley?


Exactly. xD

This last part was tl:dr. :p

Oh and: HE THOUGHT NUNALLY WAS DEAD WHEN THIS HAPPENED. :p

[bladeofdarkness]

@Nogitsune

and again you missed out on most of the points of that post
i'll compress it for you

during ZERO-R lelouch had used everyone he could who would have been in any way useful to him (IN ANY WAY)
he used suzkau (a given, since its THEIR PLAN)
he used C.C (his partner in crime)
but he also used jeremia (who was his loyal servent)
he used nina (who was his friend from ashford)
he used Lloyd and cecile (to provide him with weapons)
he used sayoko (for no reason i can think of, she didnt do anything)
he used rivals as a way to get to nina (not much use, but then again this is rivals we're talking about)
when the KOR attacked suzaku even told gino that he should join them (not much of an invite, but still)

he also used kaguya and tianzi (as human shields)
i wouldnt really call what he did to nunnaly using her since its not really what he does, he just takes the key from her with his geass (but push come to shove the plan is importent enough for him to use his geass on nunnaly)
and just in case we forget (since i still call it his worse crime yet) he used thousends of mind control slaves as cannon fodder (who he didnt really know but then again i doubt that he gave a shit)

and yet he chose (rather bluntly) not to use kallen
despite her going right up to him and asking him (very clearly) what are you trying to do this time, he chooses to intentionally keep her out of his plan (and making it look like he betrayed her, so she'll side against him)
we know that the fate of the world is staked on this plan
and we know (from the long list of people i just named) that he didnt not really think "suzaku and i can do anything" as enough (they didnt go at it alone, they gathered an army)
and we also know that lelouch knows that kallen is
1)about as powerful as suzaku (in battle)
2)as loyal to him (personally, not to zero) as anyone of those people he chooses to use (as his own datebase shows and as ep 19 hammers home)
so with the fate of the world at stake he nevertheless chooses to make his job (which is already insanely hard) extra difficult by making her side against him rather then even ASKING HER to join (or even tell her "if you trust in me, sit this one out")
just to insure that kallen would get a better future when its all over

i say again
ZERO-R is not done for kallens benifit alone (not even close)
he does it for the sake of the entire world and everyone in it
but he also (once again) goes out of his way to protect kallen even at the cost of making his task much more difficult to achive

and here is the final point that your constentlly missing time and time again
this is a treatment that he does not extend to ANYONE ELSE
not those closest to him (C.C and suzaku)
not his ashford friends (nina and rivals)
not his servents (sayoko and jeremia)
even his actions regarding nunnaly are not the same in terms of efficinacy (nunnaly couldnt join him (she was shnizel's prisoner), and wouldnt have been of use if she did)

[Levy]

He was? He seemed really broken when he found her and had to fight her. He may have been proud of her independence... but how is that relevant to him using her?

I think Nogitsune was referring more to when Nunnaly told Lelouch 'I want the Damocles to become the symbol of hate' in ep 25.
Lelouch was kind of relieved his own way in that short passage.. like "I've understand my sister now, we are just two of a kind" That whole sequence was indeeed very beautifull.

And about involving Karen.. I still think he did it because it wasn't strictly necessary for his plan to involve her in something that hard and he still wanted her to live, but as an alternative... maybe he thought about it, but with nothing but his geass, CC and a disarmed Suzaku by his side, trying to contact her while she was still among the ranks of the BK was too dangerous.
He might have evaluated the risk of being caught there much greater than the possible advantage on getting Karen on his side.
I still stand for the previous explanation, though.

..ah, guys, I think we are very much OT here.

[bladeofdarkness]

I
And about involving Karen.. I still think he did it because it wasn't strictly necessary for his plan to involve her in something that hard and he still wanted her to live, but as an alternative... maybe he thought about it, but with nothing but his geass, CC and a disarmed Suzaku by his side, trying to contact her while she was still among the ranks of the BK was too dangerous.
He might have evaluated the risk of being caught there much greater than the possible advantage on getting Karen on his side.
I still stand for the previous explanation, though..

ep 22
she walked right up to him
thanked him for everything that he's done for her
and asked him what the plan is (they also kissed afterwards)

you fail :heh:

[Frostfire]

And about involving Karen.. I still think he did it because it wasn't strictly necessary for his plan to involve her in something that hard and he still wanted her to live, but as an alternative... maybe he thought about it, but with nothing but his geass, CC and a disarmed Suzaku by his side, trying to contact her while she was still among the ranks of the BK was too dangerous.
He might have evaluated the risk of being caught there much greater than the possible advantage on getting Karen on his side.
I still stand for the previous explanation, though.

I don't really understand where you are pulling danger from. He has her personal phone number if he so cares to contact her, but its made pretty clear that the two months before ZR are just between Suzaku and Lelouch, even C.C. wasn't involved in that. (This is what I've gathered from official post season material on the many boards around the internet.) So that falls through as a point.

I also don't get what you mean 'risk of being caught there'? Caught where? Right before a gathering of UN officials with his army hovering right above the island? You should also note a key flaw in your point that not having Kallen on his side is also a loss of a great boon, not just the loss of a risk. Its not like Kallen is useless and he's simply making a risk by revealing anything. When he doesn't take her, she's not only not on his side (becoming a risk) but she's also lost power. That they clearly needed in the show. You know... what with them losing the fight itself and all.

[incorrupts]

Lelouch loving Kallen is superfluous, its not even the discussion. This is about you putting her on a generic peg of "he'd have done it for anyone". Skyless was right that people here run like scared rabits the moment Kallen may, by some chance, be seen as more than just another friend too Lelouch. You know, just like Suzaku and Shirley. No one's going to jump on me for saying Shirley though. :rolleyes:

I've shown you time and again. He did not treat her like his other friends in the finally.

Exactly. And putting away all the shipping-crap, in S1 Lulu did not hesitate to use her along with the BK to accomplish his own goals. {the fact that they got their fair amount of deal like Lulu said in S1 finale, is another discussion}
In R2, no. It is not the same. It is Black Knights and it is "Kallen." Point? He cared a HELL lot more about her compared to S1. People's feelings change. And Lelouch certainly saw Kallen on another light in R2.

[Nogitsune]

Hm... I think this is all getting a little to heated.
I like discussions, but I really don't see the point in arguing.
Oh welll...



Oh come on, you are making an absolutely attrocious point with 'was he in luv with her'. Its a piss poor argument and you know it, especially since the show showed how much of a gamble taking her was to begin with but she was always in his pocket if needed because of Euphemia and FREIJA.

I'm just saying that romantic love isn't the explanation for everything that doesn't make sense from a purely logical point of view.

Nina could have always been a thorn in Lelouch's side but a useful tool, and one he willingly accepted.

He could also have just geassed her.
After all, he had his doubts.

Either he's an absolute idiot or he did not want Kallen involved for other reasons than "I don't need her." Going by the show, I'd say the latter.

Yes, she was a very close friend to him.
I think I already mentioned that a view times.

He had guns pointed at him by Geassed civilians. What happens if he refuses to hand over Nina? Rivalz was in danger, he was a delivery boy, a messenger. Guess who always gets shot first? The messenger.

I'll give you that.

I'm seriously lost now. What are you arguing then? If you know that he did not involve Kallen for reasons other than "I don't need her", which you just said was not the reason, what is being talked over?

Uhm... because I tried to give some other possible explanations for Lelouch not involving Kallen than "he was in love with her, and we all know that romantic love does not require logical thinking!", maybe.

The show quite clearly told us that he wasn't going to hesitate. "I'm doing this for the world, not just Nunally." Were his words, more or less. You can't just say "If this then that", I can say that too. "If aliens invaded, Lelouch would have become their king." Doesn't work.

And I don't see the point in bringing up that he used Nunally, but not Kallen.
Basically, that's all I wanted to say.

I think this needs to be expressed again: HE THOUGHT NUNALLY WAS DEAD WHEN THIS HAPPENED.

Errr... I think I didn't really get my point across. Oh well.

Lelouch loving Kallen is superfluous, its not even the discussion.

Then I really don't see the point in arguing.
Because all I wanted to say was that I have reasons for not accepting Kalulu as "as good as canon".

This is about you putting her on a generic peg of "he'd have done it for anyone". Skyless was right that people here run like scared rabits the moment Kallen may, by some chance, be seen as more than just another friend too Lelouch. You know, just like Suzaku and Shirley. No one's going to jump on me for saying Shirley though. :rolleyes:

And I don't like to think that Milly and Rivalz didn't matter much to Lelouch.
It's not about Kallen. It's about me believing that they were both great friends and that Lelouch appreciated them.
I already said that I agree that Kallen (along with C.C.) comes right after Suzaku. But that doesn't mean that Lelouch just dismissed his other friends without a second thought.
I'm not saying that Lelouch would "have done that for everyone". Just that Lelouch could only detach himself from the student council so "easily" because of the circumstances.

Ahh, the proverbial much closer friend. Because, when she was captured, they had a lot of time to be real chummy.

Nah, but before that.
And I even agree that the events in episode 7 had an impact on him. I just don't think that he fell in love with her.

Couldn't have anything to maybe do with him actually caring for as more than just another friend, one of those after-loss realizations. No couldn't be that.

Of course that could be the case.
But I don't have to believe that. I was responding to the claim that Kalulu was so obvious that dismissing it should be impossible.

I'm not arguing that he's in love with her, I'm arguing against this annoying dismission of "he'd have done it for anyone else".

Maybe you're arguing with the wrong person about that?
Because Kallen happens to be one of my favourite characters, and I really only wanted to say that there is no undeniable proof for him being in love with her.
I'm pretty mellow about everything else.

Did Lelouch's evolve some desire to be all super protective of Milly? She was a fine standing woman and a close friend. I, however, don't remember him risking anything to keep her safe. I even remember using her and everyone else as pieces against Suzaku in Season 1.

And I still think she was very important to him.
Let's not argue about that - I won't change my opinion when it comes to the importance of friendship in Code Geass.

From how Lelouch treated Shirley?

Well, that's just a matter of interpretation.
No point in arguing here.

[incorrupts]

Maybe you're arguing with the wrong person about that?
Because Kallen happens to be one of my favourite characters, and I really only wanted to say that there is no undeniable proof for him being in love with her.
I'm pretty mellow about everything else.


Classifying someone above others, does not necessarily mean you're in love with them. It just shows you care more about that said person.

[Nogitsune]

Classifying someone above others, does not necessarily mean you're in love with them. It just shows you care more about that said person.

And I agreed.
Kallen and C.C. are closer to Lelouch's heart than Milly and Rivalz.
But that doesn't mean he would just have screwed them over. Errr... well, maybe Rivalz, but he's male, and Lelouch seems much more protective of females.

[bladeofdarkness]

And I agreed.
Kallen and C.C. are closer to Lelouch's heart than Milly and Rivalz.
But that doesn't mean he would just have screwed them over. Errr... well, maybe Rivalz, but he's male, and Lelouch seems much more protective of females.

except that the female we're discussing happens to be his personal BODYGUARD :heh:
but he nevertheless acted much more protectively of her then anyone else other then nunnaly (from the 2nd ep of season 2)

[Frostfire]

I'm not saying that Lelouch would "have done that for everyone". Just that Lelouch could only detach himself from the student council so "easily" because of the circumstances.

He made the cirumstance in both Stage 24-25, and Turn 22-25. He made those circumstances and he used them easily. It doesn't matter if it is because of the circumstances when he's the one who made them in the first place.

He turned Ashford into a base and used the SS as bait and leverage on Suzaku. Scenario and circumstances he created.

He turned the world on its head and used Rivalz, Nina, and countless others under a scenari and circumstances he'd created.

Of course that could be the case.
But I don't have to believe that. I was responding to the claim that Kalulu was so obvious that dismissing it should be impossible.

But I'm not saying canon this or canon that. I'm telling you that you can't just classify her as 'just a friend that he'd to the same for any other friend' when the show showed that he doesn't do that.

And if this is your problem then you must not like any pairing at all because they can all amount to this. But, I'll ask, why are you questioning Kallen? Why not question Shirley? This is just going back to what I and Skyless said, there is a knee-jerk reaction to Kallen and Lelouch being mentioned in the same sentence.


And I still think she was very important to him.
Let's not argue about that - I won't change my opinion when it comes to the importance of friendship in Code Geass.

Sigh. I have an appointment with the Sun.

[bladeofdarkness]

the right thing to say about his general conduct in the final arc is actually not
"he would have treated any of his friends the same way that he treated kallen"
its
"he would have treated any of his friends the same way EXCEPT KALLEN (who he treats differently)"

[incorrupts]

And if this is your problem then you must not like any pairing at all because they can all amount to this. But, I'll ask, why are you questioning Kallen? Why not question Shirley? This is just going back to what I and Skyless said, there is a knee-jerk reaction to Kallen and Lelouch being mentioned in the same sentence.

Most of the times, that is cause a lot of people were angry about C.C's role getting shafted on R2, Shirley dying quite early in the series, so that leaves Kallen running and gunning on the field by herself. I don't think i have to explain what kind of field that is.

[Nogitsune]

And if this is your problem then you must not like any pairing at all because they can all amount to this.

Not thinking that something is canon doesn't mean I don't like it.
But you know what?
You've got me there. xD
I really don't care much for any pairing involving Lelouch.

I support SchneizelxKanon, though.
And a little SuzakuxEuphemia.
And C.C.xClovisxArthur, because crack is fun. xD
...I think you get the idea. ;P

But, I'll ask, why are you questioning Kallen? Why not question Shirley?

I do quoestion Lelouch's romantic love for Shirley, but I really saw no need to bring that up again.

This is just going back to what I and Skyless said, there is a knee-jerk reaction to Kallen and Lelouch being mentioned in the same sentence.

Nah, I like them both, and I also enjoy seeing them interact with each other.
Just not as a couple.

Sigh. I have an appointment with the Sun.

Bring them some cake!

[Levy]

I also don't get what you mean 'risk of being caught there'? Caught where?

On Kaminejima, ep. 21, before the one month skip.
After that, we might assume we have already took the decision of going through Zero Requiem without her and arranged almost all the first part.

But I'm not sold on this hypotesis either, I prefer my first one.

[Frostfire]

Not thinking that something is canon doesn't mean I don't like it.
But you know what?
You've got me there. xD
I really don't care much for any pairing involving Lelouch.

I support SchneizelxKanon, though.
And a little SuzakuxEuphemia.
And C.C.xClovisxArthur, because crack is fun. xD
...I think you get the idea. ;P

I think we've resolved our differences. Huraa!


I do quoestion Lelouch's romantic love for Shirley, but I really saw no need to bring that up again.

I haven't been here for that long, so I haven't exactly seen you oppose Shirley (I'll assume C.C. as well), but the moment they get brought up. I'll be tapping my fingers, waiting for you to come up and say this and that. :D


Bring them some cake!

I hate cake.

[incorrupts]

I hate cake.

The cake's a lie.

[bladeofdarkness]

here is the point you need to understand

rivals is the bike guy
thats all he does (driving people around)
thats his sole role in the anime
so he used him in that role (to get nina)

nina has two aspacts to her character
euphie crazed lezbo
and nuke making know how
so he used the first part as a way to get the second part

thats all they do and thats what he had them do for him

[Nogitsune]

I think we've resolved our differences. Huraa!

*cheers* xD

I haven't been here for that long, so I haven't exactly seen you oppose Shirley (I'll assume C.C. as well), but the moment they get brought up. I'll be tapping my fingers, waiting for you to come up and say this and that. :D

I'll be there. ;P

I hate cake.

Well, one more reason to give it to someone else!
Like Sunrise... or me. xD

[SonOfHeaven]

So Lelouch could have loved both Shirley or Kallen. I wouldn't be surprised if he had fallen for Kallen(mutual kiss with nothing else about it, not about being comforted or about memories) given what happened throughout R2 and what's been said and interpreted already. Especially what happened during turn 22 since Lelouch should have lied to Kallen again but he chose not to(strange ZR was about he becoming a tyrant and if he lied to Kallen during her moment she would have hated him regardless especially after the kiss).

Still don't see what's the big deal about it is. Even if he could have loved Shirley or Kallen but he is gone now or is it the possibility that Kallen would live the rest of her life not being involved with no one else. Which wouldn't be surprising.

[Lolipopo]

So Lelouch could have loved both Shirley or Kallen. I wouldn't be surprised if he had fallen for Kallen(mutual kiss with nothing else about it, not about being comforted or about memories) given what happened throughout R2 and what's been said and interpreted already. Especially what happened during turn 22 since Lelouch should have lied to Kallen again but he chose not to(strange ZR was about he becoming a tyrant and if he lied to Kallen during her moment she would have hated him regardless especially after the kiss).

Still don't see what's the big deal about it is. Even if he could have loved Shirley or Kallen but he is gone now or is it the possibility that Kallen would live the rest of her life not being involved with no one else. Which wouldn't be surprising.
The big deal is...that we agree about Shirley and Kallen...
But CC isn't in the equation, and THIS is annoying to her fans.

And that's what I don't get; Lelouch and CC relationship wasn't about romance and that's what makes it special from my view; About the others girls, it was their plot, all about romance with Lelouch; Because Lelouch loves one in a romantic way doesn't mean the other is less important to him, clearly not.

Now Lelouch needs to wants CC's heart and body to make their relationship interesting ? It had never been about that for them so I don't see what's the big deal to see Kallen and Shirley as LI while CC is his partner, their link is still there.

[Nogitsune]

Lelouch and CC relationship wasn't about romance and that's what makes it special from my view

You know, I totally agree with that.
I love their relationship as it is, and if they were involved romantically, it probably wouldn't change anything.

[SonOfHeaven]

The big deal is...that we agree about Shirley and Kallen...
But CC isn't in the equation, and THIS is annoying to her fans.

And that's what I don't get; Lelouch and CC relationship wasn't about romance and that's what makes it special from my view; About the other girl, it was their plot, all about romance with Lelouch; Because Lelouch loves one in a romantic way
doesn't means the other is important to him, clearly not.

Now Lelouch needs to wants CC's heart and body to make their relationship interesting ? It had never been about that for them so I don't see what's the big deal to see Kallen and Shirley as LI while CC is his partner, their link is still there.

I never saw Lelouch and C.C's relationship in a romantic way. Though, that's just me since that relationship definitely comes down to one's interpretation. Late in the series Kallen asked her about loving Lelouch but she didn't know so that for me was enough for me to understand. I won't even try to elaborate on it.

[bladeofdarkness]

the problem is that most people still miss the point of what the argument is about
its not about lelouch's feelings for kallen (how ever you choose to view them)
its about the rational for his actions in ZERO-R in regards to her

when you say "keeping her out of it doesnt mean that he has feelings for her" you might have a point
but when you say "he treated her like he would treat all of his friends" you shoot yourself in the foot
becouse while we dont know (with full certainty) how lelouch feels about kallen
we do know what he actually did during ZERO-R
and he treated his "friends" one way (using both nina and rivals)
and treated kallen (and only kallen) in a completely differnetly way

and thats even without adding that there is a huge difference in the actual use that he would have for kallen when compered to any of his other friends
namely that rivals and milly would be useless while kallen would be priceless to his forces (she certaintly proved a bigger theat then anyone else when opposing them)

[Nogitsune]

Hm... we should make use of the almost peaceful atmosphere.
Who knows how long it will last?

So...
Anyone in the mood for discussing crack pairings and other amusing romance related stuff? xD

[youngde]

Hm... we should make use of the almost peaceful atmosphere.
Who knows how long it will last?

So...
Anyone in the mood for discussing crack pairings and other amusing romance related stuff? xD

I think Inoue and Yoshida should have ended up together because they have so much in common: they were both in Naoto's resistance squad, they both died in the Black Rebellion and most people don't even remember they existed.

[Levy]

*crack mod* I ship Tamaki and Rakshata ...because she's a genius, but also lazy, so she'd rather keep a dumb man around her that won't make her waste her precious brain energies in competition.

who's next ?

[Grey Dawn]

Gino and Milly

They're both playful blondes who have an occassional righteous streak. They're also both flirts.

[incorrupts]

So Lelouch could have loved both Shirley or Kallen. I wouldn't be surprised if he had fallen for Kallen(mutual kiss with nothing else about it, not about being comforted or about memories) given what happened throughout R2 and what's been said and interpreted already. Especially what happened during turn 22 since Lelouch should have lied to Kallen again but he chose not to(strange ZR was about he becoming a tyrant and if he lied to Kallen during her moment she would have hated him regardless especially after the kiss).

Still don't see what's the big deal about it is. Even if he could have loved Shirley or Kallen but he is gone now or is it the possibility that Kallen would live the rest of her life not being involved with no one else. Which wouldn't be surprising.

The argument is that prior the Newtype booklet, people were like about the KallenxLulu kiss, "woah poor Kallen, getting rejected like that." I gotta admit, i felt kinda the same way though i was pretty sure that Lulu is a bitch and he must hide something. {and keep in mind that Kalulu is not my first OTP, more like second}
Well after the info is released, it is clear that the kiss was indeed mutual. Now in my point of view, that does not make Kalulu canon, hell i would not classify any pairing "canon" when it comes to Lelouch. But the booklet does shed light on the whole kiss-deal and makes it clear that Kallen did not sing "My Baby Shot me Down" while leaving the hall. It does give a ++ to Kalulu pairing and also shots down the whole "friend, friend, friend, only."

[Nogitsune]

I think I already mentioned it, but...

ArthurxClovis, because they are both awesome and need more love and
C.C.xClovis, because that's just creepy and I love torturing the poor guy. xD
Hm. What else? o.o
Oh yeah.
CorneliaxRivalz, because that's totally random and I'm an evil person without a conscience. xD

[Levy]

I'm completely high on Minami/Kaguya on these days and I go sleep with my utter sin, 'night!

[Shuuda]

I'm completely high on Minami/Kaguya on these days and I go sleep with my utter sin, 'night!

I sleep with that sin as well.:heh:

[Eliarine]

CorneliaxRivalz, because that's totally random and I'm an evil person without a conscience. xD

I...just tried to imagine that. And it was fun. Thanks :D How about Nina x Charles? :eyespin:

[morbosfist]

I...just tried to imagine that. And it was fun. Thanks :D How about Nina x Charles? :eyespin:He'd crush the poor girl.

[demon_god04]

He'd crush the poor girl.

Charles is not really fat, his arms are pretty skinny so his "bulk" might be mainly his clothes. :p :heh:

[Eliarine]

He'd crush the poor girl.

I'm sure Charles can be gentle when he needs to be, unless all his wives were bodybuilders xD

[morbosfist]

Maybe not bodybuilders, but I'd imagine they were at least a fair amount taller and larger than Nina. But Nina's smart, she could work around it I suppose. :heh:

[Nogitsune]

I...just tried to imagine that. And it was fun. Thanks :D How about Nina x Charles? :eyespin:

Omg. xD
That's almost as scary as CharlesxEuphemi-....errr, wait, let's not talk about that.
I just managed to creep myself out. Again. xD

[Jaime Kordek]

SchneizelxOugi? Maybe he turned over control of the Black Knights for a reason?

[incorrupts]

Are we talking about crack pairings?
CCxLulu. On my simply-the-best list.

[Witacume]

Are we talking about crack pairings?
CCxLulu. On my simply-the-best list.

QFT XD 19 chars

[Nogitsune]

ClovisxRolo!
Because I like mentioning Clovis. xD

[Jaime Kordek]

Are we talking about crack pairings?
CCxLulu. On my simply-the-best list.

OH SNAP

But sticking to the cracklier pairings, maybe LucianoxANYONEEVER

[Narona]

ClovisxRolo!
Because I like mentioning Clovis. xD
I remember seeing you talking about Clovis :heh: . Are you a fan of him? :O

[Lolipopo]

Are we talking about crack pairings?
CCxLulu. On my simply-the-best list.


Sorry CluClu fans...but ROFL.

You killed me there, I have to admit xD This kalulu mode is made to you, keep it more than one days.

On a side note, not about crack pairing, Mao x CC; Some Amv just reminds me this sad story, and though CC really made Mao suffer while leaving him, She loved him (that's a sadistic love though); Seriously their story is sad...I'm in a Mao mood right now -_- This poor child who turned nuts...

[Eliarine]

But sticking to the cracklier pairings, maybe LucianoxANYONEEVER

I HAVE seen fanart of Luciano with other characters. Several other characters in fact. I'm trying to forget. xD

[Nogitsune]

I remember seeing you talking about Clovis :heh: . Are you a fan of him? :O

Yes! xD
He's one of my three favourites. ;P
And he needs more love. *nods her head solemnly*

[demon_god04]

Sorry CluClu fans...but ROFL.

You killed me there, I have to admit xD This kalulu mode is made to you, keep it more than one days.

On a side note, not about crack pairing, Mao x CC; Some Amv just reminds me this sad story, and though CC really made Mao suffer while leaving him, She loved him (that's a sadistic love though); Seriously their story is sad...I'm in a Mao mood right now -_- This poor child who turned nuts...

It is amazing that barely anyone talks about Mao. :heh:

[Jaime Kordek]

It is amazing that barely anyone talks about Mao. :heh:

Well, everyone's a bit concerned about his chainsaw...

[incorrupts]

Sorry CluClu fans...but ROFL.

You killed me there, I have to admit xD This kalulu mode is made to you, keep it more than one days.


Yeah, i get the bad-reps for saying what pretty much all the biased Kalulu fans want to say actually. XD

And already two bad reps, i was just making a point how wank can get started.

[Nogitsune]

Hm... I think C.C. loved Mao, but she wasn't in love with him.
She practically raised him, after all.
(Yep, she's definitely the motherly type.)
I adore Chibi!Mao, but I don't really care about the older version of him.

[Lolipopo]

It is amazing that barely anyone talks about Mao. :heh:

I guess some people prefer forget that CC already had a contractor before Lelouch, and that she loved Mao...:p
That's a pity, Mao is an important part of CC's story.

Moreover, it's maybe better to avoid to talk about him since he brings back CC's worse side and reminds everyone that as a lot of character, she had her own sins.

But it's never to late to talk about him :'p

Nogitsune : I agree ! Child Mao is pure love therefore he deserves more love :">

Skyless: Welcome back to the Kalulu mode, the mode were your reputation can't be worse :heh:

[incorrupts]

Moreover, it's maybe better to avoid to talk about him since he brings back CC's worse side and reminds everyone that as a lot of character, she had her own sins.



Oh no, actually. THAT is one i gotta give C.C credit for, i'm pretty sure i would not like a lunatic like him to follow me. Stalker much? XD
As for her other sins, it is the romance thread and don't get me started about the whole Marianne-fiasco. Then again, it is like they say: "Show me your friends, and i'll tell you who you are."

[Nogitsune]

Nogitsune : I agree ! Child Mao is pure love therefore he deserves more love :">

I'm already having trouble spreading Clovis-love, and the guy was hot.
ChibiMao may be adorable, but I don't think we'll manage to make people see the light by just pointing that out. q.q

Then again... we can always try. xD

[Lolipopo]

Oh no, actually. THAT is one i gotta give C.C credit for, i'm pretty sure i would not like a lunatic like him to follow me. Stalker much? XD
As for her other sins, it is the romance thread and don't get me started about the whole Marianne-fiasco. Then again, it is like they say: "Show me your friends, and i'll tell you who you are."

No that's not it; That's the fact that CC left him while being responsible for his state :'/
THAT is a sin to me. We can understand CC but finally Mao's state was because of the geass she gave him. But well, we know she had a genuine love for him (BTW she told him to wait for her on the other side...he is going to wait a long time :/) so their story is really tragic for me (Code geass, were love equals to Tragedy.)

Nogistune : Let's make graphics of child Mao in CC's arms afraid because of the voices in his head...people will fall in the cuteness trap. x)

[Nogitsune]

Nogistune : Let's make graphics of child Mao in CC's armls afraid because of the voices in his head...people will fall in the cuteness trap. x)

I'm afraid I'm not good with graphics. o.o
But I could write a oneshot! Maybe... xD

Did I mention that I love the look in C.C.'s eyes when she shoots Mao?
I always want to hug her. q.q
...Damn. Now I feel guilty for writing timetravel.
I mean, she'll have to kill him all over again...
Oh well. She'll just have to use Clovis as a punching bag. xD

[Eliarine]

Did I mention that I love the look in C.C.'s eyes when she shoots Mao?
I always want to hug her. q.q

Did I mention that this is one of my favorites scenes? And right in the middle of Suzaku's major freaking out too.

I want to hug them both. ;_;

[incorrupts]

No that's not it; That's the fact that CC left him while being responsible for his state :'/
THAT is a sin to me. We can understand CC but finally Mao's state was because of the geass she gave him. But well, we know she had a genuine love for him (BTW she told him to wait for her on the other side...he is going to wait a long time :/) so their story is really tragic for me (Code geass, were love equals to Tragedy.)


Yeah of course. C.C loved Mao. She probably still had feelings for him even when she joined Lulu right? Sure, that would annihilate any CCxLulu romance of course.

[Nogitsune]

Did I mention that this is one of my favorites scenes? And right in the middle of Suzaku's major freaking out too.

I want to hug them both. ;_;

Agreed. Q_Q
And I also think that Lelouch should have hugged them.
Especially Suzaku!

[Eliarine]

Agreed. Q_Q
And I also think that Lelouch should have hugged them.
Especially Suzaku!

Well, the chapel doors close theatrically after C.C kills Mao so Lelouch would have had to destroy the awesomeness of that moment to hug her...but she definitely doesn't get enough hugs, that's for sure.

And yes, he should have hugged Suzaku. ;_;

[Nogitsune]

Well, the chapel doors close theatrically after C.C kills Mao so Lelouch would have had to destroy the awesomeness of that moment to hug her

Hm... true. o.o

...but she definitely doesn't get enough hugs, that's for sure.

*nods her head*

And yes, he should have hugged Suzaku. ;_;

*sighs wistfully*

[incorrupts]

Well, the chapel doors close theatrically after C.C kills Mao so Lelouch would have had to destroy the awesomeness of that moment to hug her...but she definitely doesn't get enough hugs, that's for sure.


Well she at least got the two last moments with Lulu. Which were >>> Kalulu kiss. It was about comforting and comprehending each other, not some zomg-tongue-kiss that declared "CANON". Um, no.

[dec4rhapsody]

Are we talking about C.C. and Mao now?
This is another case in which C.C. isn't hated by the geass user, even though Mao got Ax crazy.

BTW I am joining in skyless' RuruC mode for this weekend.

[demon_god04]

Well she at least got the two last moments with Lulu. Which were >>> Kalulu kiss. It was about comforting and comprehending each other, not some zomg-tongue-kiss that declared "CANON". Um, no.

Um, I disagree. There I replied happy?

[incorrupts]

Um, I disagree. There I replied happy?

Care to elaborate why?

[Grey Dawn]

Care to elaborate why?

Ugh.

See? This is just another case of fans ganging up on someone just because they posted their opinion. Everyone has their right to their opinion okay guys? Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't make them wrong, irrational, or stupid.

[incorrupts]

Ugh.

See? This is just another case of fans ganging up on someone just because they posted their opinion. Everyone has their right to their opinion okay guys? Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't make them wrong, irrational, or stupid.

Yeah, except demon accuses other people that they do not elaborate when he is doing the exact same thing right now.

And where the hell did i say he is stupid or what? Jesus.

[demon_god04]

Care to elaborate why?

I am a biased and unreasonable rabid Kalulu fanboy, what other need to elaborate is there? :p

[Eliarine]

Well she at least got the two last moments with Lulu. Which were >>> Kalulu kiss. It was about comforting and comprehending each other, not some zomg-tongue-kiss that declared "CANON". Um, no.

...this is night and day. ô_O Okay, I think I get how you work now xDD;;

And to stay on topic...I agree, even though you don't need the possible-romance aspect to appreciate those scenes. I personally like both interpretations of their unique relationship, and I loved their last scenes together. <3

[demon_god04]

Yeah, except demon accuses other people that they do not elaborate when he is doing the exact same thing right now.

And where the hell did i say he is stupid or what? Jesus.

Like I said I was not really in the mood anyways so do not expect a great deal of effort from me. And Wita is too lazy to reply to you. :p:heh:

[Witacume]

i'm pretty lazy i only just made a manifesto ready to rain hell.
Lazy indeed.
Pizza hut supports the rebellion
gogo PizzahutXSunrise

[demon_god04]

I am chilling after two exams and a presentation so :p I am now on lazy mode all weekend. :heh:

[yvj]

Care to elaborate why?

OMG Skyless stop ganging up on people. You're such an extremist.

[Narona]

Yes! xD
He's one of my three favourites. ;P
And he needs more love. *nods her head solemnly*
You must be the only Clovis fan I know!

May I ask why you like him so much?

I don't remember what it was exactly, but I remember reading something about a Clovis Beach Party, so i propose ClovisXbeach :3

[Spring_sakura111]

You must be the only Clovis fan I know!

May I ask why you like him so much?

I don't remember what it was exactly, but I remember reading something about a Clovis Beach Party, so i propose ClovisXbeach :3

If Clovis didn't die and if Kallen and the others didn't get C.C. , I think it would be Clovis X C.C.

[Jaime Kordek]

If Clovis didn't die and if Kallen and the others didn't get C.C. , I think it would be Clovis X C.C.

That is one of the squickier pairings, in my mind.

[Levy]

*keeps on crack* Rakshata and Urabe had an affair in the year between S1 an R2!
"I'm sorry, Rakshata" is one of last things he said.....!

Clovis X CC is an interesting alternative scenario.
I don't remember who mentioned Gino X Milly but they surely have a lot in common!^^

[Spring_sakura111]

*keeps on crack* Rakshata and Urabe had an affair in the year between S1 an R2!
"I'm sorry, Rakshata" is one of last things he said.....!

Clovis X CC is an interesting alternative scenario.
I don't remember who mentioned Gino X Milly but they surely have a lot in common!^^

Ohh yeaaaaaaaaah. Milly X Gino. Riiighht! They danced together at episode 05. And the "Hadaka no Lelouch" sound episode , Gino ended up being Milly's naked model. Hmm........

[Charred Knight]

Oh no, actually. THAT is one i gotta give C.C credit for, i'm pretty sure i would not like a lunatic like him to follow me. Stalker much? XD
As for her other sins, it is the romance thread and don't get me started about the whole Marianne-fiasco. Then again, it is like they say: "Show me your friends, and i'll tell you who you are."

You do know that the reason that Mao is insane is because of the geass C.C gave him right?

Also if C.C loved Mao she sure as hell wouldn't try to curse him with immortality. Since Mao could not give her what she wanted C.C abandoned Mao, and left him. Keep in mind that C.C had lost the ability to love, and to have compassion, she only regained them due to her time with Lelouch.

[Nogitsune]

You must be the only Clovis fan I know!

Somehow, that makes me sad. xD

May I ask why you like him so much?

Because he's a tragic character of the sort that constantly makes me want to hug him.
He was awesome in the Sound Drama (how he was thought to bee "too kind" to rule by his siblings, how he spoke of Marianne, how he didn't care about ploitics at all, how Cornelia tried to get him to learn piloting a Knightmare but failed, how he politely but decidedly dismissed Schneizel's advice and - most of all - how he genuinely loved Lelouch despite always viewing him as a rival, and how he tried to overcome his dislike for politics just to honour his memory), and even before that, he intrigued me.
First there was how he completely lost his composure upon finding out that it was Lelouch who had come to kill him, then there were the paintings, and when Cornelia later commented on the garden he designed after that in Alius' Villa, she said something along the lines of: "Even though he always argued with Lelouch there, he seemed to really like that place."
So... yeah, I started to fall in love with him pretty early. xD
I also think it's incredibly sad how his good intentions turned into indifference in such a short amount of time, and it certainly didn't happen without a reason.
He was a very flawed character, but he had the potential to change, and he was an awesome older brother.

I don't remember what it was exactly, but I remember reading something about a Clovis Beach Party, so i propose ClovisXbeach :3

He also designed the swimsuits, therefore, I vote for ClovisxHarem. xD



If Clovis didn't die and if Kallen and the others didn't get C.C. , I think it would be Clovis X C.C.

Nah, you have to put C.C.'s name first.
Because if this was yaoi, Clovis would be so uke. xD



You do know that the reason that Mao is insane is because of the geass C.C gave him right?

Also if C.C loved Mao she sure as hell wouldn't try to curse him with immortality. Since Mao could not give her what she wanted C.C abandoned Mao, and left him. Keep in mind that C.C had lost the ability to love, and to have compassion, she only regained them due to her time with Lelouch.

I think Mao was her last attempt to care for someone before she met Lelouch, and even though her love may not have been "pure", she stated herself that she did indeed love him. I think she even used "aishiteru".
It probably wasn't a romantic kind of love, but she definitely cared.

[Spring_sakura111]

I think Mao was her last attempt to care for someone before she met Lelouch, and even though her love may not have been "pure", she stated herself that she did indeed love him. I think she even used "aishiteru".
It probably wasn't a romantic kind of love, but she definitely cared.

Yeah. Too bad he turned into this crazy clapping dude because of his out of control Geass. I wonder what kind of person Mao is before he overused his Geass. I think he's a good guy and gives everything to C.C.

[Nogitsune]

Yeah. Too bad he turned into this crazy clapping dude because of his out of control Geass. I wonder what kind of person Mao is before he overused his Geass. I think he's a good guy and gives everything to C.C.

Well, he was still a child back then, so... he was a little fanboy. Definitely. xD
And later on... hm, it's really hard to say what kind of person he could have been. But I'd be happier if he hadn't fallen in love with C.C.
In my opinion, platonic relationships are much cuter. xD

[Spring_sakura111]

Well, he was still a child back then, so... he was a little fanboy. Definitely. xD
And later on... hm, it's really hard to say what kind of person he could have been. But I'd be happier if he hadn't fallen in love with C.C.
In my opinion, platonic relationships are much cuter. xD

Really? I guess we have different tastes. But it's nice to imagine Mao being a kind and obedient Guy.

Mao:C.C. What do you like to eat? Wanna buy that? What do you want?"
I imagine him pestering C.C. A LOT since he appears a bit childish. O.O

[Nogitsune]

Really? I guess we have different tastes. But it's nice to imagine Mao being a kind and obedient Guy.

Mao:C.C. What do you like to eat? Wanna buy that? What do you want?"
I imagine him pestering C.C. A LOT since her appears a bit childish. O.O


Aw. xD
Someone should write a fanfic about that.
And I would, if I weren't so busy with my current project.
But... aw! xD

[demon_god04]

I think Mao was her last attempt to care for someone before she met Lelouch, and even though her love may not have been "pure", she stated herself that she did indeed love him. I think she even used "aishiteru".
It probably wasn't a romantic kind of love, but she definitely cared.

That point seems to be contradicting C.C's actions. C.C abandoned Mao because he was unable to fulfill his contract to her which is to kill her because of his feelings for her. If C.C really took in Mao as her last attempt to care for someone, why did she give him the curse of geass? She herself should know what kind of burden the power was and it's dangers. She was actively trying to escape from it by dying and passing that burden upon someone else. She may have grown to care for Mao as she raised him but she was still trying to die and she just up and left Mao when it was apparent that he was not of use to her in that regard.

[Witacume]

MAoXCC is great they can live together in the giant plothole they were put in.

[Nogitsune]

That point seems to be contradicting C.C's actions. C.C abandoned Mao because he was unable to fulfill his contract to her which is to kill her because of his feelings for her.

And because he was slowly falling prey to madness, I'd guess.

If C.C really took in Mao as her last attempt to care for someone, why did she give him the curse of geass?

Hm... maybe "care" was too strong a word in that context. But I think Mao remineded her of herself and, therefore, she took care of him and inevitably grew fond of him while doing so.

She herself should know what kind of burden the power was and it's dangers.

Yes, but she wasn't selfless enough to care.
That's what I meant by "her love may not have been 'pure'".

She was actively trying to escape from it by dying and passing that burden upon someone else. She may have grown to care for Mao as she raised him but she was still trying to die and she just up and left Mao when it was apparent that he was not of use to her in that regard.

I was just saying that C.C. loved him, not that she would have put his well-being over her own.
There's a difference, especially when talking about an immortal witch who has lived trough several centuries while all she really wants is to finally die and be done with it.

[incorrupts]

Has this been posted before? It's from NT November 2008, thanks to piggyhoho. It's about Lelouch's ideal world.
It does have some romantic colors/touches or something. "^^ // Shirlulu for ONCE gets the piece of cake, with all the crap we got in R2 that is something nice.

http://community.livejournal.com/code_geass/1144899.html#cutid1

[Lolipopo]

...I must leave. I had to hide myself while crying a river

T__T

WHY !?
So sweet seriously...though I wonder why Gino and Anya were in while CC wasn't.

[Nogitsune]

*sighs wistfully*
Lelouch. q.q
But I'd have liked it even better if some of his half siblings had been there, too.
Errr... no, I'm not thinking of Clovis! I'm thinking of... errr... Euphemia! Yes, Euphemia!
...Really!

[Grey Dawn]

Huh, I just can't see Nunally and Rolo squabbling. They were always polite and nice to the people they liked, and if Rolo didn't like someone, well, words weren't really his weapon of choice. And I can't see Nunally being mean to anyone, really.

[Nogitsune]

Huh, I just can't see Nunally and Rolo squabbling. They were always polite and nice to the people they liked, and if Rolo didn't like someone, well, words weren't really his weapon of choice. And I can't see Nunally being mean to anyone, really.

Well, Lelouch's ideal world obviously takes some liberties when it comes to ICness. xD
Not to mention that a Rolo with a proper childhood would be much different from the one we know, and that Nunally at least liked teasing Lelouch.
A little friendly banter between siblings doesn't hurt anyone, after all. ;P

[incorrupts]

*sighs wistfully*
Lelouch. q.q
But I'd have liked it even better if some of his half siblings had been there, too.
Errr... no, I'm not thinking of Clovis! I'm thinking of... errr... Euphemia! Yes, Euphemia!
...Really!
Yeah, to be honest i would like to see Euphie somewhere but right now i am being on squee-mode cause of this:
"Shirley asked him what was wrong, Lelouch noticed that his heart felt funny whenever he saw her warm smile, as if he knew some truth about her that not even she herself knew about, it was a complicated feeling."
After episode 13 R2, where even the official charts "crap-forgot" Shirley, this is definitely something good ~

[Nogitsune]

Hm... yeah, it's cute, I guess, even though I still don't support the pairing. xD

[incorrupts]

Hm... yeah, it's cute, I guess, even though I still don't support the pairing. xD

And do i care about this?
Anyway, it seems like Shirlulu and Kalulu got their post-season material. I wonder {REALLY wonder} if CCxL will get something.

[Nogitsune]

And do i care about this?

Uhm... just saying.
Why are people always getting defensive over random stuff?
Oh well.

Anyway, it seems like Shirlulu and Kalulu got their post-season material. I wonder {REALLY wonder} if CCxL will get something.

Hm... probably.
We'll see.

[incorrupts]

Uhm... just saying.
Why are people always getting defensive over random stuff?
Oh well.
Hm... probably.
We'll see.

Uhm, i was just saying as well.

I would not say probably though, i'd be surprised if we got something to be honest. Considering how much CCxL lack-interaction took place in R2. Still, hope dies last. But it does die.

[Nogitsune]

Uhm, i was just saying as well.

Well, that's all right then, I guess. xD

I would not say probably though, i'd be surprised if we got something to be honest. Considering how much CCxL lack-interaction took place in R2. Still, hope dies last. But it does die.

*shrugs*
They rushed R2, but I think they are having too much fun playing with the fans to not give them something to chew on.

[incorrupts]

*shrugs*
They rushed R2, but I think they are having too much fun playing with the fans to not give them something to chew on.

Hmm, fair enough. CCxL is the most popular ship in CG {for some reason that beats me} so yeah, if Kalulu and Shirlulu got their "bones" there might be something for CCxL as well. Still, the problem is that KxL and SxL had development in R2 while C.C's role was pretty much shafted in season 2 in general. Well anyway, i guess we'll see. It is pointless to "argue" about it.

[Nogitsune]

Hmm, fair enough. CCxL is the most popular ship in CG {for some reason that beats me} so yeah, if Kalulu and Shirlulu got their "bones" there might be something for CCxL as well.

*nods her head*

Still, the problem is that KxL and SxL had development in R2 while C.C's role was pretty much shafted in season 2 in general. Well anyway, i guess we'll see. It is pointless to "argue" about it.

I think they came still off as very close.
I won't argue, especially since I "only" fangirl them as accomplices and not as a couple, but the revelation of C.C.'s past, Lelouch getting to know her "old self" and her being his shield all seemed rather important to me.
Rushed, but important.

[Lunara]

Has this been posted before? It's from NT November 2008, thanks to piggyhoho. It's about Lelouch's ideal world.
It does have some romantic colors/touches or something. "^^ // Shirlulu for ONCE gets the piece of cake, with all the crap we got in R2 that is something nice.

http://community.livejournal.com/code_geass/1144899.html#cutid1

So beautiful, it's so lovely that Shirley and Rolo were also part of that dream. I wanna cry.:T_T:

Although I agree for Euphemia as an Ashford Academy Student being part of that dream also, that would satisfy Suzaku. But then again this is Lelouch's dream.

[Pink-chan]

So beautiful, it's so lovely that Shirley and Rolo were also part of that dream. I wanna cry.:T_T:

Although I agree for Euphemia as an Ashford Academy Student being part of that dream also, that would satisfy Suzaku. But then again this is Lelouch's dream.

I love this novel. I was touched :T_T::T_T:
That should be the way. Rolo and Nunnally can live together peacefully. Lelouch dotes on both of them. It's a beautiful dream. If only, Lelouch is leading a normal life, things will not turn out the way it is. Rolo and Nunnally's fight and Lelouch's teasing of Kallen is cute. I like Rurushirley. I always believe this pairing is most likely to occur if it wasn't for the circumstances.

[demon_god04]

And because he was slowly falling prey to madness, I'd guess.

Hm... maybe "care" was too strong a word in that context. But I think Mao remineded her of herself and, therefore, she took care of him and inevitably grew fond of him while doing so.

Yes, but she wasn't selfless enough to care.
That's what I meant by "her love may not have been 'pure'".

I was just saying that C.C. loved him, not that she would have put his well-being over her own.
There's a difference, especially when talking about an immortal witch who has lived trough several centuries while all she really wants is to finally die and be done with it.

Madness that was caused by the power she game him. But that is the thing, she may have taken interest in him because he resembled who she was but she still used him for the purpose of getting rid of her code. There are some parallels between her and the nun in that. I only disagreed with your analysis that she cared for him and that was the reason she adopted him.

But you know, that is basically want C.C condemned Charles and Marianne with in the world of C. that they only loved and cared about themselves. Their kindness being only superficial and to alleviate their own guilt.


Has this been posted before? It's from NT November 2008, thanks to piggyhoho. It's about Lelouch's ideal world.
It does have some romantic colors/touches or something. "^^ // Shirlulu for ONCE gets the piece of cake, with all the crap we got in R2 that is something nice.

http://community.livejournal.com/code_geass/1144899.html#cutid1

The story is nice. And really I still think that Lelouch deserved an ending like that -.-

[Nogitsune]

But you know, that is basically want C.C condemned Charles and Marianne with in the world of C. that they only loved and cared about themselves. Their kindness being only superficial and to alleviate their own guilt.

I really wouldn't throw the old C.C. in with Marianne and Charles, but... *shrugs*
A matter of interpretation, I guess.

The story is nice. And really I still think that Lelouch deserved an ending like that -.-

Oh, someone else who doesn't think Lelouch deserved to "pay for his sins" by dying a tragic death?
I agree, of course.

[Witacume]

Oh, someone else who doesn't think Lelouch deserved to "pay for his sins" by dying a tragic death?
I agree, of course.

I don't agree with this statement at all.
Lelouch didn't pay for his sins at all.
Instead he died and did not take responsibility for the world he left.
Lelouch could have had that sort of ending if he took up the mantle of responsibility instead doing the shitstorm we call Zero's Requiem

[bladeofdarkness]

I don't agree with this statement at all.
Lelouch didn't pay for his sins at all.
Instead he died and did not take responsibility for the world he left.
Lelouch could have had that sort of ending if he took up the mantle of responsibility instead doing the shitstorm we call Zero's Requiem

while i agree with you
i dont think its the right thread for it

[Nogitsune]

I don't agree with this statement at all.
Lelouch didn't pay for his sins at all.
Instead he died and did not take responsibility for the world he left.
Lelouch could have had that sort of ending if he took up the mantle of responsibility instead doing the shitstorm we call Zero's Requiem

It wasn't a statement... except if you're refering to the ones who originally came up with the whole "paying for his sins" stuff.
I just said that I don't think he deserved to pay by dying. I don't even think he deserved to pay by living.
In my opinion, the only thing Lelouch deserved was more happiness in his life.

Errr... and just so that this doesn't become completely offtopic: I think he should have started courting Arthur! xD

[Sol Falling]

First, sorry to morbosfist for not following up on our long convo awhile ago. It's been some time, and I felt we came to an understanding, so I won't go over it.

Moving on:

the irony is that sherlulu kiss was basiclly what lelouch would have gotten in ep 7 had kallen been weaker
its a kiss drawn for comfort (which sherly felt bad about)

On this I'll briefly disagree. What Lelouch was looking for in episode 7 was an escape. Kallen was 'a woman': the comfort he was looking for from her was the equivalent of refrain. The comfort Shirley asked for in stage 12 was contrastingly, that of being saved. In short: Shirley was looking specifically to Lelouch to help her face her reality, while Lelouch was looking generally to anything to help him run away.

I take Turn 7 to mean Lelouch saw Kallen as a woman. Definately not (yet) a love interest, however.

On the spammage regarding Kallen and Lelouch's kiss being 'mutual':

I'll disagree with those people denying the booklet. However, I interpret 'mutual' primarily emotionally. Now I haven't done more than glance through Var's .gif (it burns my eyes), but I find any claims of 'tongue' action clearly exaggerated. An open mouth means an open mouth; there's no requirement for any 'waggling' to occur. 'Mutual' does nothing to change this.

I also disagree that this 'revelation' necessitates any reevaluation of Lelouch and Kallen's interactions. Just because the kiss was mutual doesn't require that Lelouch thought of Kallen romantically beforehand. In this case, you can take Kallen's kiss to parallel Shirley's: Lelouch was responding to Kallen's emotions as they were revealed to him, rather than acting on any of his own initiative. I also definitively reject any claims of Lelouch regarding Kallen as a possible romantic interest preceding her (semi) confession in Turn 19.

...

the problem is that most people still miss the point of what the argument is about
its not about lelouch's feelings for kallen (how ever you choose to view them)
its about the rational for his actions in ZERO-R in regards to her

when you say "keeping her out of it doesnt mean that he has feelings for her" you might have a point
but when you say "he treated her like he would treat all of his friends" you shoot yourself in the foot
becouse while we dont know (with full certainty) how lelouch feels about kallen
we do know what he actually did during ZERO-R
and he treated his "friends" one way (using both nina and rivals)
and treated kallen (and only kallen) in a completely differnetly way

I think you guys are missing the point of Zero Requiem, here. Lelouch's exclusion of Kallen doesn't indicate any special consideration for her. Zero Requiem was about atonement: Suzaku and Nina didn't participate because they were loyal to Lelouch, but because they wished to atone for their sins. Moreover, they wanted Lelouch to atone for his sins. Lelouch could not ask or grant that to anyone else, so he didn't.

Think about it. Kallen had never been forced to confront being wrong (her side was fighting for 'justice', after all). She also never believed Lelouch was wrong (he was the protector of that 'justice'). As such, why would she ever participate in a plan whose entire premise was the participants' past mistakes?

The purpose of Zero Requiem was to make Zero's lies a reality. As such, only those who rejected the false Zero could participate.


Finally, this:


Has this been posted before? It's from NT November 2008, thanks to piggyhoho. It's about Lelouch's ideal world.
It does have some romantic colors/touches or something. "^^ // Shirlulu for ONCE gets the piece of cake, with all the crap we got in R2 that is something nice.

http://community.livejournal.com/code_geass/1144899.html#cutid1

I have been validated beyond my wildest dreams. This shit is canon, right? Not randomly made up? 'Cause if it is: this is precisely how I imagined Lelouch wanted. This is like pretty much the greatest instance of pandering (to my tastes, I mean) I've ever witnessed. I knew Lelouch's death was going to be confirmed, but Shirlulu too? Incredible.

Skyless, I apologise that I've been the foremost contributor to Shirlulu 'wank' (on these boards, at least) in the past. But with material this good, I've just gotta come back.

[Lie]

I have been validated beyond my wildest dreams. This shit is canon, right? Not randomly made up? 'Cause if it is: this is precisely how I imagined Lelouch wanted. This is like pretty much the greatest instance of pandering (to my tastes, I mean) I've ever witnessed. I knew Lelouch's death was going to be confirmed, but Shirlulu too? Incredible.

Skyless, I apologise that I've been the foremost contributor to Shirlulu 'wank' (on these boards, at least) in the past. But with material this good, I've just gotta come back.

No, its not canon.

[Nogitsune]

No, its not canon.

Hu? Wasn't it written by the staff?
At least partly?
*somehow got that impression*


@Sol Falling
Hm. *nods her head slowly*
Yep, I think agree with everything you just said about Kallen and Zero Requiem.

Edit:
Oh, except the Suzaku part, maybe.
But not much, so I won't elaborate on that.

[Eliarine]

Hey Sol \o/ Just thought I'd mention that I agree with you on the whole "mutual kiss" stuff; I'm not denying the booklet, just disagreeing with the interpretation most people seem to draw from it.

And as for the the story that was just shared, first: ;________;, then: the more I think about it the more I think that Lelouch never really felt the need to "categorize" his feelings for any of his girl friends...except Shirley. He "loved" quite a few people, but being as clueless as he is to everything related to romance, I think he felt that...that was enough. But Shirley forced him to reconsider his feelings for her, and I think there was something different. I'm not saying it was the deepest of all loves, but I think there really was at least something and he just didn't have time to think upon it too much. And well, this kind of info would confirm something like that in my opinion. <3

[Nogitsune]

And as for the the story that was just shared, first: ;________;, then: the more I think about it the more I think that Lelouch never really felt the need to "categorize" his feelings for any of his girl friends...except Shirley. He "loved" quite a few people, but being as clueless as he is to everything related to romance, I think he felt that...that was enough. But Shirley forced him to reconsider his feelings for her, and I think there was something different. I'm not saying it was the deepest of all loves, but I think there really was at least something and he just didn't have time to think upon it too much. And well, this kind of info would confirm something like that in my opinion. <3

Hm... yeah, I think I can agree with that, too.
There probably was something different, even though I'm not sure to what extend.

[Frostfire]

On this I'll briefly disagree. What Lelouch was looking for in episode 7 was an escape. Kallen was 'a woman': the comfort he was looking for from her was the equivalent of refrain. The comfort Shirley asked for in stage 12 was contrastingly, that of being saved. In short: Shirley was looking specifically to Lelouch to help her face her reality, while Lelouch was looking generally to anything to help him run away.

I take Turn 7 to mean Lelouch saw Kallen as a woman. Definately not (yet) a love interest, however.

Shirley wasn't looking for help, she was looking for exactly what Lelouch was looking for in Turn 7. Comfort and an escape. Saying otherwise is absolute bull. She wanted to be comforted that why she kissed him. If she wanted help she has no reason to kiss him.

Why does everyone insist on using Freudian logic.


I think you guys are missing the point of Zero Requiem, here. Lelouch's exclusion of Kallen doesn't indicate any special consideration for her. Zero Requiem was about atonement: Suzaku and Nina didn't participate because they were loyal to Lelouch, but because they wished to atone for their sins. Moreover, they wanted Lelouch to atone for his sins. Lelouch could not ask or grant that to anyone else, so he didn't.

Think about it. Kallen had never been forced to confront being wrong (her side was fighting for 'justice', after all). She also never believed Lelouch was wrong (he was the protector of that 'justice'). As such, why would she ever participate in a plan whose entire premise was the participants' past mistakes?

The purpose of Zero Requiem was to make Zero's lies a reality. As such, only those who rejected the false Zero could participate.

Except that your point falls flat on its face when you take into account that the plan wasn't just three people. Sayako, Cecile, Lloyd, and so on, had nothing to atone for. What did Jeremiah have to atone for? Being awesome? What did the thousands of Britannian Geassed soldiers have to atone for? Having eyes to be Geassed?

What do I have to think about? She has not always been fighting for justice. Don't you remember what she was when all this started? Do you remember her questioning Lelouch/Zero in the first season? Do you remember her promising to follow him to the end over his path of carnage and him thanking her for it? She's made mistakes, she's killed people, she has her own reasons for fighting with Lelouch if he'd let her. Just as much as Sayako, Jeremiah, Cecile, Lloyd, or any of the thousands of Geassed soldiers did.

[Lie]

Hu? Wasn't it written by the staff?
At least partly?
*somehow got that impression*

Where did you get that idea from? This is written by a completely seperate person with no affiliation to the staff. It was just a short story that appeared in the NT magazine.

[Sol Falling]

I don't agree with this statement at all.
Lelouch didn't pay for his sins at all.
Instead he died and did not take responsibility for the world he left.
Lelouch could have had that sort of ending if he took up the mantle of responsibility instead doing the shitstorm we call Zero's Requiem

The point is that this was Lelouch's 'ideal'. There were things missing, irreplaceable ones, that he could never get back by the end. Once Shirley's death shattered any possibility of its realization, this kind of ending became just what it is: a dream.

You're right: Lelouch didn't pay for his sins. But that was because he never meant to. He died that way because that's what he wanted; his lips were set in a tranquil smile, as he closed his eyes. It's true, Lelouch was running away from his responsibilities. But I think Lelouch was just damned tired. And that's human. So in the end, even if his ideal became forever unobtainable in life, I found it very moving that he managed to find peace in his death. That's why I'm glad for it.

edit:

Where did you get that idea from? This is written by a completely seperate person with no affiliation to the staff. It was just a short story that appeared in the NT magazine.

Well, not that this changes my above post, but it does seem to make it less objective. Mind being a bit clearer about this, then? If it's got no affiliation with Code Geass' creators, it's essentially just published fanfiction, right (still remarkably in line with my tastes)? Under what context would such a thing appear in NewType?

[Eliarine]

Hm... yeah, I think I can agree with that, too.
There probably was something different, even though I'm not sure to what extend.

Like I said, I'm not saying he felt Shirley definitely was his soul mate or anything, but he was willing to give the relationship a try, after all. But...of course we can never know how things would have worked out, so...we'll never know "to what extent" exactly. :/

And as for ZR, I stand by my belief that Lelouch involved as little close friends as possible in addition to what others have already said. Nina and co were necessary for his plan to work, and he dismissed them as soon as they weren't needed anymore.

[Nogitsune]

Shirley wasn't looking for help, she was looking for exactly what Lelouch was looking for in Turn 7. Comfort and an escape. Saying otherwise is absolute bull. She wanted to be comforted that why she kissed him. If she wanted help she has no reason to kiss him.

Why does everyone insist on using Freudian logic.

I partly agree with that.
Shirley wanted to be comforted and therfore kissed him, but - other than Lelouch in the infamous episode 7 - she wouldn't have just jumped anyone.

Except that your point falls flat on its face when you take into account that the plan wasn't just three people. Sayako, Cecile, Lloyd, and so on, had nothing to atone for. What did Jeremiah have to atone for? Being awesome? What did the thousands of Britannian Geassed soldiers have to atone for? Having eyes to be Geassed?

Sayako and Jeremiah were "knights". They didn't want to atone for anything, but they greatest happiness lay in serving their emperor.
Which is why I view them as exceptions to the rule.
Lloyd... well, he's Lloyd. I don't think Lelouch - or anyone else, for the matter - would feel the need to protect him from dirtying his hands.
Cecile... well, she just stayed with him and Suzaku, as always.

Also, in the end Lelouch sent most of them away.
I'll admit that this isn't fool proof, but it's my interpretation.

What do I have to think about? She has not always been fighting for justice. Don't you remember what she was when all this started? Do you remember her questioning Lelouch/Zero in the first season? Do you remember her promising to follow him to the end over his path of carnage and him thanking her for it? She's made mistakes, she's killed people, she has her own reasons for fighting with Lelouch if he'd let her. Just as much as Sayako, Jeremiah, Cecile, Lloyd, or any of the thousands of Geassed soldiers did.

But Kallen would not have left Lelouch's side when Sayako, Cecile and Lloyd did. She would have stayed until the end and - if she hadn't tried to stop him - would have come out broken.
As we already realized, we both agree that Kallen isn't just "anyone" to Lelouch, but I also think her circumstances are a little bit different. Not to mention that Lelouch knows her well enough to see how much participating in Zero Requiem would hurt her.



Edit:

Like I said, I'm not saying he felt Shirley definitely was his soul mate or anything, but he was willing to give the relationship a try, after all. But...of course we can never know how things would have worked out, so...we'll never know "to what extent" exactly. :/

And as for ZR, I stand by my belief that Lelouch involved as little close friends as possible in addition to what others have already said. Nina and co were necessary for his plan to work, and he dismissed them as soon as they weren't needed anymore.

My soulmate! xD

[Lie]

On the spammage regarding Kallen and Lelouch's kiss being 'mutual'.

口付けを交わす (how it is described in the booklet) is not mutual in the way you are using the word. There is no reaction to actions, this is people kissing of their own accord and desire to do it. It means that it isn't Lelouch kissing back after being kissed, it means he kissed as she kissed.
It's not an oftenly used expression for people kissing. I have barely heard it ever used by any of my friends, I actually had to check with a language studies major to be completely certain what the colloquial meaning of the wording was.

[bladeofdarkness]

@sol
two points i would like to raise
1)why quote wita twice :heh:

2)if you say that excluding kallen from ZERO-R doesnt in itself mean special consideration for her then how about this one
kallen was the ONLY ONE he excluded from the plan
despite the fact that she was his most loyal and most powerful follower (if you really must you can say "after suzaku")
he used everyone else he could get his hands on (and in nina's case, went out of his way to kidnapp her)
he even used rivals as a way of getting nina (not much use, but then again this IS rivals we are talking about here)

[Lie]

Well, not that this changes my above post, but it does seem to make it less objective. Mind being a bit clearer about this, then? If it's got no affiliation with Code Geass' creators, it's essentially just published fanfiction, right (still remarkably in line with my tastes)? Under what context would such a thing appear in NewType?

I wrote a reply and it got jacked, darn. I'll try again.
Published fanfiction is the best way to categorize this, prolly.
It's pretty heavily dismissed on 2ch because its rather odd in its setting. Like why are Gino and Anya there, as an example. Its also just a publication in the NT magazine which is equivalent to their random side stories that they make from time to time.
Context of appearance? Because they wanted that story? I can't really say, its the same question as why they put in a lot of their other side stories. Its usually that they read something they like or one of their editors writes something, and its put in.
The person who wrote this wrote the Bokura no Hibi things from Season 1 which people liked, but this is their first thing since then and its a nice little story.

[Nogitsune]

2)if you say that excluding kallen from ZERO-R doesnt in itself mean special consideration for her then how about this one
kallen was the ONLY ONE he excluded from the plan
despite the fact that she was his most loyal and most powerful follower (if you really must you can say "after suzaku")
he used everyone else he could get his hands on (and in nina's case, went out of his way to kidnapp her)
he even used rivals as a way of getting nina (not much use, but then again this IS rivals we are talking about here)

My answer:
Because after Suzaku (and, of course, Nunally) and along with C.C., Kallen was Lelouch's most important person.
C.C. didn't need his protection, but Kallen would have come out broken if she had participated in Zero Requiem.

[Lie]

My answer:
Because after Suzaku (and, of course, Nunally) and along with C.C., Kallen was Lelouch's most important person.
C.C. didn't need his protection, but Kallen would have come out broken if she had participated in Zero Requiem.

If you read some of the side material, she came out broken anyway.
Lol character song and some random interviews.

[Nogitsune]

If you read some of the side material, she came out broken anyway.

She seemed fairly content to me in the epilogue. Did they make me believe that just for the kicks?
... Oh my. Sunrise is evil.

[bladeofdarkness]

my point wasnt that he cares alot about kallen (duh)
my point was that he cared so much that he treated her completely differently then anyone else
it was a counter to sol's post claiming that excluding her didnt mean shoing her special consideration
but since he excluded ONLY her ...

[Lie]

She seemed fairly content to me in the epilogue. Did they make me believe that just for the kicks?
... Oh my. Sunrise is evil.

That bittersweet smile and her crying as he's dying...
Well you could call her content.

[Frostfire]

Sayako and Jeremiah were "knights". They didn't want to atone for anything, but they greatest happiness lay in serving their emperor.
Which is why I view them as exceptions to the rule.
Lloyd... well, he's Lloyd. I don't think Lelouch - or anyone else, for the matter - would feel the need to protect him from dirtying his hands.
Cecile... well, she just stayed with him and Suzaku, as always.


Those last two are pretty junky reasoning. I wouldn't call this "not bulletproof", I would call this "easily bulletridden."

[incorrupts]

Skyless, I apologise that I've been the foremost contributor to Shirlulu 'wank' (on these boards, at least) in the past. But with material this good, I've just gotta come back.

Haha, no need to apologize, in fact, if you don't cause wank in this thread, people just don't get it.
You wanna know how this thread works, let me tell you:
Most Kalulu fans are like geassed with the "it has to be Kalulu in the end" and while making good points, most of the times they "fail" cause they are being way too biased.
Most CCxLulu fans, react bad whenever they see "Kallen+Lelouch" in the same sentence just cause. Other than this, i don't blame them for being bitter cause CCxLulu got crapped in R2, in like seriously.
Shirlulu is the minority, so i won't even bother.

Now about the latest Newtype material, i see a lot of "no, it is not true, it is good fanfiction yadda yadda." As far as i am concerned, the stuff is official. Canon or not, it's up to someone's POV. But this being official, means it had to be supervised by someone that has at least direct link with the CG staff.
Otherwise, i'm gonna have my pigeon write a good CG fanfic and send it on Newtype, cause hell, fanfic apparently gets published. Um, no.

[Lie]

Now about the latest Newtype material, i see a lot of "no, it is not true, it is good fanfiction yadda yadda." As far as i am concerned, the stuff is official. Canon or not, it's up to someone's POV. But this being official, means it had to be supervised by someone that has at least direct link with the CG staff.
Otherwise, i'm gonna have my pigeon write a good CG fanfic and send it on Newtype, cause hell, fanfic apparently gets published. Um, no.

Magazine =/= Official.
NT has published fanfics in the past, this isn't their first CG side story, afterall.
It wasn't supervised by anyone on CG staff, look to blotty's post in the Kallen thread. This is completely self standing.

[incorrupts]

Magazine =/= Official.
NT has published fanfics in the past, this isn't their first CG side story, afterall.
It wasn't supervised by anyone on CG staff, look to blotty's post in the Kallen thread. This is completely self standing.
Alright, someone remind me next month to write a CG fanfic where Lelouch is being Luluko and gets drawn into the Fushigi Yuugi world. I hope it will get published in the end.

[bladeofdarkness]

like i said before
whether or not you choose to view the new stuff as "official"
you cant ignore that it presents a completely different AU then the actual events of the anime
the characters have not had ANY of the development that they did in the anime and as such act in a way that coresponds to an AU setting
this is what it would have been had code geass being restarted as a high school love comedy and the character development set back to ep 1
the problem is that during the course of code geass people changed and relationships were effected by events that in this AU never took place
how ever you choose to see it (i still think its not much, its a NT MAGAZINE release after all) its still not the same characters that we know from the anime (like the manga is official,but not canon)

[Nogitsune]

my point wasnt that he cares alot about kallen (duh)
my point was that he cared so much that he treated her completely differently then anyone else

And I more or less disagreed with that point, saying that yes, Kallen was more important to Lelouch than Rivalz, but no, the cause for that doesn't have to be romantic love, because Lelouch always feels strongly - for his sister, for Suzaku... why not add Kallen and C.C. to the list?

it was a counter to sol's post claiming that excluding her didnt mean shoing her special consideration
but since he excluded ONLY her ...

I agree with the special consideration part, but not with what that implys in the eyes of most Kalulu fans.

That bittersweet smile and her crying as he's dying...
Well you could call her content.

I said fairly content, and I deliberately didn't use the word "happy".
But even Nunally - to whom Lelouch meant the world since she was only a small child - managed to pull herself together, and Kallen - even though I think she will continue loving him for the rest of her life - does not seem "broken" to me at all.
Deeply saddened by his death, yes, but there's a difference.

Those last two are pretty junky reasoning. I wouldn't call this "not bulletproof", I would call this "easily bulletridden."

Nah, only the explanation for Cecile is rather... uncreative.
The Lloyd one makes perfect sense... to me, that is. xD
But Lelouch didn't really know either of them before he started Zero Requiem, and involving strangers was never too hard for him. Therefore, I don't see any reason for him to not accept their help for a while if they give it to him so freely.

Magazine =/= Official.
NT has published fanfics in the past, this isn't their first CG side story, afterall.
It wasn't supervised by anyone on CG staff, look to blotty's post in the Kallen thread. This is completely self standing.

Hm. Then it's at least a very impressive piece.


@bladeofdarkness:
It's only a dream C.C. is having after Zero Requiem, if I understood that correctly - not an AU.
Therefore, it would really only mean that Lelouch would have fallen for Shirley in another life (if it was "canon", that is).

[fainessae]

Hate to jump into the party here, but the new Newtype story is written by Kanou Arata, the same guy who wrote Bokura no Hibi. Thus it's not written by "just anyone", nor is it merely Newtype fanwankery. (Newtype prefers CC anyway, and Karen more than Shirley, so why the heck would it write a story that leans more toward Shirley and Lelouch rather than CC or Karen? ;P)

If Bokura no Hibi is taken as secondary canon, then that would make this secondary canon as well. As this is written by the same writer who wrote the season 1 side stories, to dismiss this story is to also dismiss those.

Anyway, carry on. <3

[incorrupts]

Well, not that this changes my above post, but it does seem to make it less objective. Mind being a bit clearer about this, then? If it's got no affiliation with Code Geass' creators, it's essentially just published fanfiction, right (still remarkably in line with my tastes)? Under what context would such a thing appear in NewType?

It was written by the same person who wrote Bokura no Hibi (which are considered canon, most of them) so i fail to see how this is published fanfic and not as "canon" as any other secondary information.
I'm not gonna jump and say, "HEY ZOMG!SHIRLULU CANON" or something, cause hell no, like i have said in the past i believe there is no "canon" when it comes to Lulu. Canon's definition in CG only applies to that crap-head Ougi and his prior-ninja-Mary Sue.
But still, this story/description could apply to CG universe, under, well, if a lot of circumstances were different.

[youngde]

I don't know why people care if it's canon or not. It lends credence to both Kalulu and Shirlulu by actually acknowloging that he has feelings for both even if he, himself, doesn't seem to notice it (he flirts w/ Kallen and invites Shirley out). The only one we don't see if he has feelings for is C.C., who seems to be an observer of Lelouch's dream for some reason. It can be interpreted multiple ways, so don't freak out about it.

[bladeofdarkness]

@bladeofdarkness:
It's only a dream C.C. is having after Zero Requiem, if I understood that correctly - not an AU.
Therefore, it would really only mean that Lelouch would have fallen for Shirley in another life (if it was "canon", that is).

and you dont consider a DREAM about ANOTHER LIFE
to be an AU to the canon plot :heh:

and we already KNOW that he would have probably hooked up with her if not for the events of the anime
he had no contant with C.C
and kallen would just be some other classmate of his who he has not contect with

thats why its an AU
becouse things that happend in canon didnt happen there

[Frostfire]

I don't know why people care if it's canon or not. It lends credence to both Kalulu and Shirlulu by actually acknowloging that he has feelings for both even if he, himself, doesn't seem to notice it (he flirts w/ Kallen and invites Shirley out). The only one we don't see if he has feelings for is C.C., who seems to be an observer of Lelouch's dream for some reason. It can be interpreted multiple ways, so don't freak out about it.

This. Can we stop arguing over nothing?

At least the arguments over the kiss made some semblance of sense. This just feels like wank for the sake of wank.

Unless we want to argue that this confirms something? Sure, I guess. I confirms that Lelouch likes both Kallen and Shirley. Good. Let's move on, since we already knew that. :heh:

[Nogitsune]

I don't know why people care if it's canon or not. It lends credence to both Kalulu and Shirlulu by actually acknowloging that he has feelings for both even if he, himself, doesn't seem to notice it (he flirts w/ Kallen and invites Shirley out).

He flirts with Kallen?
Huh. I interpreted it as friendly teasing. o.o
It seemed only rather clear when it came to Shirley, whith that "fuzzy" feeling and all.

Edit:
Errr... yes, let's stop talking about this. xD

[incorrupts]

I don't know why people care if it's canon or not. It lends credence to both Kalulu and Shirlulu by actually acknowloging that he has feelings for both even if he, himself, doesn't seem to notice it (he flirts w/ Kallen and invites Shirley out). The only one we don't see if he has feelings for is C.C., who seems to be an observer of Lelouch's dream for some reason. It can be interpreted multiple ways, so don't freak out about it.

Who is freaking out about it? It just annoys me, when i see the same persons that were jumping last week about the Newtype Booklet saying "canon, canon, canon" dismissing stuff this week, cause hey, it is fanfic and not written from the guy that wrote the BnH apparently!!1
Whenever it does not fit in our tastes, no, we dismiss it.
Jesus, this hypocrisy in this thread sometimes is REALLY annoying.

[Nogitsune]

and you dont consider a DREAM about ANOTHER LIFE
to be an AU to the canon plot :heh:

and we already KNOW that he would have probably hooked up with her if not for the events of the anime
he had no contant with C.C
and kallen would just be some other classmate of his who he has not contect with

thats why its an AU
becouse things that happend in canon didnt happen there

But it's also supposed to be his ideal world.

[Lie]

and you dont consider a DREAM about ANOTHER LIFE
to be an AU to the canon plot :heh:

and we already KNOW that he would have probably hooked up with her if not for the events of the anime
he had no contant with C.C
and kallen would just be some other classmate of his who he has not contect with

thats why its an AU
becouse things that happend in canon didnt happen there

The reason this isn't thrown around too much is because parts of it don't make sense. C.C. dreaming about Lelouch with Gino and Anya being present? They never met, and Lelouch met them all of two times. This falls under liberties taken by the author.
How does C.C. dream about people she never met?

[Lolipopo]

Hate to jump into the party here, but the new Newtype story is written by Kanou Arata, the same guy who wrote Bokura no Hibi. Thus it's not written by "just anyone", nor is it merely Newtype fanwankery. (Newtype prefers CC anyway, and Karen more than Shirley, so why the heck would it write a story that leans more toward Shirley and Lelouch rather than CC or Karen? ;P)

If Bokura no Hibi is taken as secondary canon, then that would make this secondary canon as well. As this is written by the same writer who wrote the season 1 side stories, to dismiss this story is to also dismiss those.

Anyway, carry on. <3

No, Just NO. NT prefer CC, they never shown any preference to Kallen, so this out of the blue.

About this story, it's seemingly from Lelouch's pov (or CC's ? I don't know anymore...), and actually I don't think we can take as canon a Lelouch's pov which isn't from Okouchi or a real member of the staff team. (It's not like this guy had received from Okouchi a "Lelouch's perfect world ? Shirley as a nice girlfriend, Kallen as a flirt, Rollo and Nunally as his family...)It's not the same thing than Bokura no hibis.

But even if this is not canon (just go watch Blotty's post about this) this is a nice way to put things and I think Shirley fan can take this for what it is if is their wish (even if in this story, though Lelouch is flirting with Kallen, the very fact that she is all tsun tsun towards him proof that her R2 devellopment didn't occur :p ); A way to imagine a Lelouch's perfect world.

But let's be fair, it's certainly not canon, the very fact that a lot of devellopment is missing, that Gino and Anya are there while CC isn't (she wanted to come in Ashford to open a pizza club darn it !) is already a proof.

Whatever, anyway, the next part is about how Lelouch is going to cheat on Shirley with Kallen *get shots*

Skyless : ...Let's be fair. You can't compare this with the NT booklet which is giving info from the staff...this one isn't coming from them from what we know.

[bladeofdarkness]

Who is freaking out about it? It just annoys me, when i see the same persons that were jumping last week about the Newtype Booklet saying "canon, canon, canon" dismissing stuff this week, cause hey, it is fanfic and not written from the guy that wrote the BnH apparently!!1
Whenever it does not fit in our tastes, no, we dismiss it.
Jesus, this hypocrisy in this thread sometimes is REALLY annoying.

no one is saying canon, canon, canon (at least i hope not)
were saying that it just takes one of the theories about why kalulu is a real possibility (the var gif, claiming her was kissing back)
and turning that (and only that) theory into fact
and then pointing out how this new fact related to other theories
namely the "he only saw her as a friend, and had no attraction to her as anything else" argument

[Frostfire]

But even if this is not canon (just go watch Blotty's post about this) this is a nice way to put things and I think Shirley fan can take this for what it is if is their wish (even if in this story, though Lelouch is flirting with Kallen, the very fact that she is all tsun tsun towards him proof that her R2 devellopment didn't occur :p ); A way to imagine a Lelouch's perfect world.

Whatever, anyway, the next part is about how Lelouch is going to cheat on Shirley with Kallen *get shots*

Lelouch is his father's son. He's not going to cheat, he's going to marry both. That's why he's flirting with Kallen, while asking Shirley out.

[Rising Dragon]

Once again, thanks to Skyless, I have Interwork's thoughts on the Lelouch's Ideal World story.

I woke up this morning to find a pleasant surprise awaiting my eyes on the Code Geass LJ Comm.

Here is the surprise in all of its glory: For any who might like to look at what I'm talking about.

There are some great things in this story, and, as it is written by the same person who wrote Bokura no Hibi (which are considered canon), it is as canon as any other secondary information.

Which means, my friends, that Lelouch's true dream was exactly what I'd always expected it to be. He wanted to have Rolo and Nunnally with him, all his dear friends happy, and Suzaku as his best friend and Shirley as, ultimately, the love of his life.

Thank you, canon. :P

Shirley got two seasons of development, and people kept trying to say that it was just "friendship" on Lelouch's part. But my friends, she set the precedent for his philosophy of protecting by pushing away. She is the only one he has ever confessed feelings to, and the only one he has jumped off buildings for. She is the only one who has directly affected his entire philosophy of life in a positive way, and the only one who tried to build bridges with people important to him. Thank you, canon, for confirming that she was, indeed, his destiny, and that she was his first choice and preference.

Not that Code Geass the anime disagrees with this. :P The anime, and now this story of what Lelouch's personal dream was, makes it perfectly obvious who Lelouch's first preference was.

I'm happy that this dream of his included his old banter with Karen--I always loved the way they were in season 1; they seemed like very close friends, and I knew this was how Lelouch always viewed her. There was always the air of "close friends who were attracted to each other" between them, and I always liked that. I'm happy that the way I viewed them is still the right way. ;D

So as always, I am content that Shirlulu wins, and Lelouch's real feelings are that he loved Karen as a dear and close friend. Which makes total sense with canon, because his wish for Karen was for her to "live on", not to "love him" or "live on for him" or anything. She was a very very important person in his life, someone who had been through hell with him, and he wanted to save her as much as Nunnally.

But his true love was Shirley, which is supported by both the show and materials that have been recently released, and now he is with her to await a reincarnation where they can finally have a peaceful life together.

I am very content as a Code Geass fan. <3

Enjoy.

[Eliarine]

He flirts with Kallen?
Huh. I interpreted it as friendly teasing. o.o
It seemed only rather clear when it came to Shirley, whith that "fuzzy" feeling and all.

Same here, not that I'm surprised. xD


Who is freaking out about it? It just annoys me, when i see the same persons that were jumping last week about the Newtype Booklet saying "canon, canon, canon" dismissing stuff this week, cause hey, it is fanfic and not written from the guy that wrote the BnH apparently!!1

Yup. Both came from Newtype, I don't see how one should be totally dismissed and the other used as proof for anything. I'll just go with "somehow canon", and the rest is up to everyone's interpretation.

[yvj]

Whether it's canon or not. And it very well might be. It was very entertaining.

Any Kalulu fan who is threatened by this must have had a heart attack during anything involving Shirley pre-death in R2.

As for the "Kalulu" clearly a Tsundere cliche right thur. Following "School life" anime staples it would eventually lead to some Love triangle School rumble type wackiness.

It's pretty funny actually.

[incorrupts]

no one is saying canon, canon, canon (at least i hope not)
were saying that it just takes one of the theories about why kalulu is a real possibility (the var gif, claiming her was kissing back)
and turning that (and only that) theory into fact
and then pointing out how this new fact related to other theories
namely the "he only saw her as a friend, and had no attraction to her as anything else" argument

Oh Var, of course. If Var said it, then sure thing.

I don't really have a problem with Kalulu, not at all, it is my second OTP as i have stated many times but it annoys me, when a lot of Kalulu fans are trying to ruin it for other fanbases. I don't really care anymore about this NT dream-story, it is ruined for me.
Hell, this Romance thread is fucking ruined, people jumping on each other's throats and yeah, i am ashamed that i took place in this shit.
I'm seriously getting out of this thread and generally from CG section.
It used to be fun here, speculating about how a couple could potentially become something more in terms of romance, chilling and discussing in a calm tone.
Now it's all srsz bzness and over-analyzing.
I'll be heading for the Gundam section, thank God there is no love-triangle there to ruin the fun. // in b4 i get fickle and come back.

[bladeofdarkness]

im posing blotty's translation
to settle the whole "is he flirting with kallen or not" argument
and again this is blotty's thing not mine
i take no credit what so ever for it

Lelouch found Kallen in the courtyard - curry bread in her mouth, the top buttons of her uniform undone and sitting on one of the objects.
"Really, you should at least eat your breakfast before coming to school."
"I did eat at home," such a dreadful thing, Kallen said with pride. "Do you have a problem with that?"
"...Kallen."
"What?"
I laughed through my nose. "Heh, nothing. From now on and forever, please stay like that."
"What's that about!?" Kallen jumped down from the object.
"How annoying~ You always try to get on people's nerves so early in the morning."
"If you get angry, your bed hair will stand on end even more."
"It is not bed hair!"
Lately, Kallen's hairstyle had undergone a drastic change. Before, her hair was neat and straight like the style of a young miss'. That day, her hair stood on end looking like a crab.
"Why did you change your hairstyle? The previous one suited you just as well."
"I noticed it."
"Noticed what?"
"You liked my previous hairstyle, didn't you?"
"That may be so. I find that there's something of more value in the inside."
"Stop.it.already!" At that, Kallen low-kicked Lelouch's bag.
"I don't mind either (hairstyle), but your fans will change drastically." I said, while I stroke my numb feet. "42 points for 'Please return my neat-haired Kallen-san!'. 21 points for 'I'll go with this Kallen'. 18 points for 'The Kallen-san who bustles about and has the powerful legs of a wild goat is charming'. While 'I want to be stepped on by the violent Kallen' got..."
"What is that survey about?"
"This is part of my attempt to produce Kallen-san, the school idol."
"Don't you dare do such a thing on your own!"
"But, everyone's asking me about you. The lowerclassmen were wondering, 'What monster costume will Kallen-san wear for this year's cultural festival?'"
Kallen sighs.
"Why are they asking you that instead of going directly to me?"
"That's right."
"...Eh, wait. That's wrong! Even if they do ask me, I wouldnt answer! I won't wear any such monster costume!"
"Too late already. Madam president has already decided that as part of the student council's plans, 'Monster Kallen on Stage!' There are even plans for a totocalcio with ghostly apparations (1)."
"Your kidding!!"
"Hahaha. I'm looking forward to the preparations for the extraordinary fellow. We'll be projecting a lot of illuminations on stage and the monster will be so amazing that it will be hard to move on the stage with one person alone!
"Hey, wait up!"


(1) I do not get this myself, sorry. ^^

[/QUOTE]
classic tsundere response to a guy fleirting with her

[Nogitsune]

Once again, thanks to Skyless, I have Interwork's thoughts on the Lelouch's Ideal World story.



Enjoy.

I can live with that.
If Lelouch had been in love with someone, and if he had lived in a perfect world, then I agree that it would probably have been Shirley.
In the anime, however...

[Sol Falling]

Shirley wasn't looking for help, she was looking for exactly what Lelouch was looking for in Turn 7. Comfort and an escape. Saying otherwise is absolute bull. She wanted to be comforted that why she kissed him. If she wanted help she has no reason to kiss him.

Why does everyone insist on using Freudian logic.

You might be able to argue that there was a degree of wanting an escape in Shirley's actions. Nonetheless, you're not going to make the claim that she'd have turned to refrain, are you? There's a difference there, relevant to the romantic implications of those incidents, and that was what I was trying to highlight. Shirley was focused on Lelouch; Lelouch was focused on (his uselessness towards) Nunally.

Except that your point falls flat on its face when you take into account that the plan wasn't just three people. Sayako, Cecile, Lloyd, and so on, had nothing to atone for. What did Jeremiah have to atone for? Being awesome? What did the thousands of Britannian Geassed soldiers have to atone for? Having eyes to be Geassed?

Nogitsune's got the general idea. Also, as the point you were making was regarding Lelouch's 'friends' and 'more than friends', those people aren't really relevant. Particularly the Geassed soldiers, unless that's how you think Lelouch should have gotten Kallen to participate.

What do I have to think about? She has not always been fighting for justice. Don't you remember what she was when all this started? Do you remember her questioning Lelouch/Zero in the first season? Do you remember her promising to follow him to the end over his path of carnage and him thanking her for it? She's made mistakes, she's killed people, she has her own reasons for fighting with Lelouch if he'd let her. Just as much as Sayako, Jeremiah, Cecile, Lloyd, or any of the thousands of Geassed soldiers did.

Part of Kallen's character is being righteous, sometimes arrogantly so. She was fighting against the 'damned Britannians'--do you really think she questioned her actions as a terrorist? My point about Kallen never having to face the reality that she'd wronged is supported precisely by that incident with Lelouch you're talking about: Lelouch fed her some line about 'giving meaning to the lives which were lost', Kallen ate it right up, and she never thought about having killed Shirley's dad again. Zero Requiem was about acknowledging and righting Lelouch's mistakes: someone who didn't believe in them in the first place wouldn't be useful.

D'you know what Kallen would have had that Sayako, Jeremiah, Cecile, Lloyd, Nina, or Suzaku didn't? An issue with letting Lelouch kill himself. Lelouch may have 'used' people (though the examples I've seen are pretty weak, honestly), but he wasn't going to force anybody to work for him knowingly. That'd create problems in the world he was leaving behind, after all.

口付けを交わす (how it is described in the booklet) is not mutual in the way you are using the word. There is no reaction to actions, this is people kissing of their own accord and desire to do it. It means that it isn't Lelouch kissing back after being kissed, it means he kissed as she kissed.
It's not an oftenly used expression for people kissing. I have barely heard it ever used by any of my friends, I actually had to check with a language studies major to be completely certain what the colloquial meaning of the wording was.

The timeline of the kiss itself doesn't really matter, as what I meant about Lelouch 'responding' to Kallen was her emotions. As I said, I don't see it as necessary that Lelouch was interested in her beforehand.

@sol
two points i would like to raise
1)why quote wita twice :heh:

Whoops, that is fixed.

2)if you say that excluding kallen from ZERO-R doesnt in itself mean special consideration for her then how about this one
kallen was the ONLY ONE he excluded from the plan
despite the fact that she was his most loyal and most powerful follower (if you really must you can say "after suzaku")
he used everyone else he could get his hands on (and in nina's case, went out of his way to kidnapp her)
he even used rivals as a way of getting nina (not much use, but then again this IS rivals we are talking about here)

I wouldn't call Lelouch's interactions with Rivalz or Nunally 'using' them. I'm not sure if you have any other examples. Regardless, you'll have to acknowledge that he didn't 'use' them to the degree that he did Suzaku and Nina. The point I'm making is that the distinction isn't between 'friends' and 'more than friends', but 'friends who have something to atone for' and 'friends who don't'. Suzaku and Nina had clear reasons to hate Zero, and also themselves. That's why they could bear the idea of working to create a better future at the cost of Lelouch's life. Kallen had no such reasons to go along with it, so she'd only be a hindrance. You might see Lelouch pushing Kallen away as special concern for her, but it's also true that Lelouch did it for himself, in that he was eliminating a distraction which could prevent him from doing what he needed (wanted) to do.

[Frostfire]

Once again, thanks to Skyless, I have Interwork's thoughts on the Lelouch's Ideal World story.

Enjoy.

Excellent. Now Shirlulu fans are using canon.

I think I too will take my time, look at only the material that I want to look at, and declare that Nanilulu is canon. :heh:

[yvj]

Oh Var, of course. If Var said it, then sure thing.

I don't really have a problem with Kalulu, not at all, it is my second OTP as i have stated many times but it annoys me, when a lot of Kalulu fans are trying to ruin it for other fanbases. I don't really care anymore about this NT dream-story, it is ruined for me.
Hell, this Romance thread is fucking ruined, people jumping on each other's throats and yeah, i am ashamed that i took place in this shit.
I'm seriously getting out of this thread and generally from CG section.
It used to be fun here, speculating about how a couple could potentially become something more in terms of romance, chilling and discussing in a calm tone.
Now it's all srsz bzness and over-analyzing.
I'll be heading for the Gundam section, thank God there is no love-triangle there to ruin the fun.

Problem is every time something is released someone claims it as "win" and then there is blood in the water for all the sharks.

[Nogitsune]

The point I'm making is that the distinction isn't between 'friends' and 'more than friends', but 'friends who have something to atone for' and 'friends who don't'.

Omg!
I came up with almost the same line a few pages back. xD
There must be at least some truth in it if we both got that impression. ;P

[bladeofdarkness]

he never wondered if nina needs (or wants) to atone
he kidnapped her by force

[Eliarine]

he never wondered if nina needs (or wants) to atone
he kidnapped her by force

Hum yeah well, he kind of needed her, you know.

[Lolipopo]

This is getting ridiculous.

Bokura no hibis : Side material which permits to discover more on some side of the story; Officially, I don't think they were really canon, or I was fooled; I thought while reading them that they were really In story, but I nver seen confirmation about their canon-ess

This thing : It's Lelouch's perfect world. Who is able to describe Lelouch's perfect world but Okouchi himself ? Do people really think he send to ths writer some things to insert in the story ? No, this guy came with his own idea, it could fit, it could not, so please stop it with this canon senseless. (and no, NT booklet is fulfill with staff information; This story doesn't seems, from what we heard to people used with NT and stuff; Just go read Blotty and Lie's posts here and in Kallen's thread)

People can take it as they want; After all, with or without it, i'm pretty sure that every Shirlulu fan already thought that Lelouch's perfect world would involve Shirley as his girlfriend so I don't think this is going to change anything.

And yep, Lelouch and Kallen were tsundere around each other; It's called flirting in my world, but Shirley stays the perfect high school girlfriend (and this is not surprising)

Now Frostfire made a point; Lelouch is too much like his father to handle just one girl so everything is fine finally.

Yeap Eliarine; He didn't need Kallen and her hax mecha cause in the power ranger dream world, Lelouch and Suzaku are able of everything together....oups...then why did he need Nina, geassed soldiers, etc etc...? Nonsense.

[morbosfist]

You might be able to argue that there was a degree of wanting an escape in Shirley's actions. Nonetheless, you're not going to make the claim that she'd have turned to refrain, are you? There's a difference there, relevant to the romantic implications of those incidents, and that was what I was trying to highlight. Shirley was focused on Lelouch; Lelouch was focused on (his uselessness towards) Nunally.Shirley wouldn't have turned to Refrain, but it's very hard to compare her situation to Lelouch's. She lost her father, sure, and it's a pretty big hit, but Lelouch had his whole damn life stolen from him. He was at the end of his rope there. Nunnally was just the straw that broke the camel's back, as it were.

Part of Kallen's character is being righteous, sometimes arrogantly so. She was fighting against the 'damned Britannians'--do you really think she questioned her actions as a terrorist? My point about Kallen never having to face the reality that she'd wronged is supported precisely by that incident with Lelouch you're talking about: Lelouch fed her some line about 'giving meaning to the lives which were lost', Kallen ate it right up, and she never thought about having killed Shirley's dad again. Zero Requiem was about acknowledging and righting Lelouch's mistakes: someone who didn't believe in them in the first place wouldn't be useful.I would argue that she did face the reality of it, because she confronted him about it in the first place. Lelouch helped her realize that, even with that tragedy, what they were doing was worth the risk. I seriously doubt Lelouch gave Shirley's dad much thought after that point, either.

[Frostfire]

You might be able to argue that there was a degree of wanting an escape in Shirley's actions. Nonetheless, you're not going to make the claim that she'd have turned to refrain, are you? There's a difference there, relevant to the romantic implications of those incidents, and that was what I was trying to highlight. Shirley was focused on Lelouch; Lelouch was focused on (his uselessness towards) Nunally.

She was standing out in the rain, broken. You don't need to be about to do drugs to be in a noteable state of despair, and seeking an escape from it. Just because she wasn't about to use refrain doesn't somehow make her situation any different from Lelouch's. Not everyone reacts the same way to a situation, your argument is making the assumption that everyone must react identically. Which is simply never true. Lelouch sought refrain, Shirley decided to stand in the rain like a ghost.

Shirley wasn't focused on Lelouch, she was focused on her dad. That's why she was crying and there to begin with in that state. Lelouch was focused on Nunally, that's why he was losing himself. There are no romantic implications aside from both sought comfort in people they (since everyone loves Freudian logic) saw as people that could comfort them.


Nogitsune's got the general idea. Also, as the point you were making was regarding Lelouch's 'friends' and 'more than friends', those people aren't really relevant. Particularly the Geassed soldiers, unless that's how you think Lelouch should have gotten Kallen to participate.

But that wasn't your point. You said that this was a plan about people making up for their mistakes. What did any of the people I listed have to make up for? If Lelouch is, as you claimed, only letting in people that have something to make up for, then why did he let any of those people in? He may not have known all of them, but he sure as hell knew Sayako and Jeremiah. The former most of his life. If he can let Sayako in and if he can use Rivalz as a delivery boy, what does he have to keep Kallen out?


Part of Kallen's character is being righteous, sometimes arrogantly so. She was fighting against the 'damned Britannians'--do you really think she questioned her actions as a terrorist? My point about Kallen never having to face the reality that she'd wronged is supported precisely by that incident with Lelouch you're talking about: Lelouch fed her some line about 'giving meaning to the lives which were lost', Kallen ate it right up, and she never thought about having killed Shirley's dad again. Zero Requiem was about acknowledging and righting Lelouch's mistakes: someone who didn't believe in them in the first place wouldn't be useful.

She did question her actions. Season 1 Stage 13, she questions them rather vocally. Which you then subsequently dismiss, but it doesn't matter. She questioned her actions invalidating the first point you made.

Kallen didn't believe in Lelouch mistakes? Did you miss Turn 2? She was about to shoot him for them. She may be loyal to Lelouch, but she's not going to just stand by. Neither was Shirley, which is why she got herself killed. What would you be saying, right now, if Shirley hadn't died and Lelouch did the same thing? Because by your reasoning, the same thing would have happened.

I bet the tune would be different.

D'you know what Kallen would have had that Sayako, Jeremiah, Cecile, Lloyd, Nina, or Suzaku didn't? An issue with letting Lelouch kill himself. Lelouch may have 'used' people (though the examples I've seen are pretty weak, honestly), but he wasn't going to force anybody to work for him knowingly. That'd create problems in the world he was leaving behind, after all.

Suzaku had an issue with it, he was simply convinced otherwise because he had reasons himself to want Lelouch dead. Who said he'd have to force Kallen, either? If he tells her the right thing or if he lies, then she will follow him. Instead he doesn't say diddly. If he really didn't want her involved at all then why didn't he lie to her and chase her off?

[Nogitsune]

I seriously doubt Lelouch gave Shirley's dad much thought after that point, either.

Errr... wait.
He did even mention him a few times.
And it would have been much harder for him to forget - with Shirley constantly reminding him and all.

[SonOfHeaven]

I don't know why people care if it's canon or not. It lends credence to both Kalulu and Shirlulu by actually acknowloging that he has feelings for both even if he, himself, doesn't seem to notice it (he flirts w/ Kallen and invites Shirley out). The only one we don't see if he has feelings for is C.C., who seems to be an observer of Lelouch's dream for some reason. It can be interpreted multiple ways, so don't freak out about it.

You spoke the words out of mouth. He probably had romantic feelings for both Shirley and Kallen. Shirley had the biggest chance to be with him but she died. The mutual kiss from Kallen from what I saw is that he returned it. If he didn't feel anything from that perspective from Kallen, he probably would have still had the shocked look on his face when she went for the kiss. End of the day, I think he loved both of them past the just friend aspect but he's gone so it doesn't matter.

Also nice story about Lelouch's dream.

[Frostfire]

Errr... wait.
He did even mention him a few times.
And it would have been much harder for him to forget - with Shirley constantly reminding him and all.

The same can be said for Kallen, with Shirley constantly reminding her and all. But the man, after his death and Stage 14, is more or less forgotten by everyone.

[Nogitsune]

Kallen didn't believe in Lelouch mistakes? Did you miss Turn 2? She was about to shoot him for them. She may be loyal to Lelouch, but she's not going to just stand by.

But it was about Lelouch's past mistakes, not the sins he commited with Zero Requiem in mind.
Not to mention that Kallen thought he had become a power hungry tyrant.

Suzaku had an issue with it, he was simply convinced otherwise because he had reasons himself to want Lelouch dead.

But in the end, he didn't want Lelouch dead anymore.
At least in my opinion.
Uhm... but I think my reasons for pointing that out don't have much to do with what you wanted to say here. xD

Who said he'd have to force Kallen, either? If he tells her the right thing or if he lies, then she will follow him. Instead he doesn't say diddly. If he really didn't want her involved at all then why didn't he lie to her and chase her off?

Because she was... wait, I'm repeating myself, and I'm not even sure if that's what this is about anymore, so I'll shut up for now. xD


Edit:
The same can be said for Kallen, with Shirley constantly reminding her and all. But the man, after his death and Stage 14, is more or less forgotten by everyone.

But Kallen didn't end up having to geass Shirley. And they didn't even know each other that long/well/whatever.

[lovecakecookies]

wait.. where the hell is C.C in his dream? funny in the new PD C.C was considered in his dream with her pizza club lol

I thought most people agreed that if Shirley lived, he probably would have ended up with her?

[Frostfire]

But it was about Lelouch's past mistakes, not the sins he commited with Zero Requiem in mind.
Not to mention that Kallen thought he had become a power hungry tyrant.

Now we're picking and choosing. The point is she questions him, which was one of Sol's requirements for partaking.

Your second point is rediculous. She thought he was a power hungry tyrant because he left her out of the plan. She didn't have that in her head when she confronted him to get involved, she did after when he pushed her away. If she had been involved, its pretty obvious that her thoughts would be different.

[Nogitsune]

I thought most people agreed that if Shirley lived, he probably would have ended up with her?

I think his goals would have gotten in the way.
And I really can't imagine clueless little Lelouch in a romantic relationship, but maybe that's just me. xD

[Lie]

wait.. where the hell is C.C in his dream? funny in the new PD C.C was considered in his dream with her pizza club lol

I thought most people agreed that if Shirley lived, he probably would have ended up with her?

Its because this was written months ago, before PD4 was released, and the writer had no input from the staff to know what would be released. This was written a few weeks after the show had ended.

[Nogitsune]

Now we're picking and choosing. The point is she questions him, which was one of Sol's requirements for partaking.

I thought it was about Kallen not agreeing to make Lelouch "pay" for his mistakes? *cocks her head*

Your second point is rediculous. She thought he was a power hungry tyrant because he left her out of the plan.

Yes. And that's the only reason why she would have killed him.

She didn't have that in her head when she confronted him to get involved, she did after when he pushed her away. If she had been involved, its pretty obvious that her thoughts would be different.

I think we're talking about different things. xD

[incorrupts]

Excellent. Now Shirlulu fans are using canon.

I think I too will take my time, look at only the material that I want to look at, and declare that Nanilulu is canon. :heh:

Just jumping in to tell you, do not generalize please.

[Frostfire]

But Kallen didn't end up having to geass Shirley. And they didn't even know each other that long/well/whatever.

No, instead she had to question Lelouch about what they were doing. You're making pretty crazy parallels to try and argue this. Both Lelouch and Kallen were affected by what they did to Shirley. Look at how they acted at the funeral, look at how they later acted because of that action.

Just jumping in to tell you, do not generalize please.

I was simply trying to take it full circle. Apologize.

I thought it was about Kallen not agreeing to make Lelouch "pay" for his mistakes? *cocks her head*

Yes. And that's the only reason why she would have killed him.

I think we're talking about different things. xD

That too, but its also about what was needed to partake. There is no guarantee that she wouldn't have let him, we don't know how it would have played out. Would she have opposed? Probably. C.C. opposed them too but she was there nonetheless.

Again. No. She was going to kill him because, when he left her out of the loop, she had nothing to go on but his actions which were what made her think he'd gone evil.

Probably.

[Lolipopo]

wait.. where the hell is C.C in his dream? funny in the new PD C.C was considered in his dream with her pizza club lol

I thought most people agreed that if Shirley lived, he probably would have ended up with her?

No. Since he develloped too romantic feelings for Kallen :D
If she and he had survived, I think we would have get a Code geass fumoffu, with a love triangle with the hot blooded girl and the nice one. Classic :D

And yep I noticed it too about CC and her pizza club; Picture drama is totally canon, so I don't think Lelouch would have forgot CC and the realisation of her beloved pizza club in his perfect world :p

[Nogitsune]

No, instead she had to question Lelouch about what they were doing. You're making pretty crazy parallels to try and argue this. Both Lelouch and Kallen were affected by what they did to Shirley. Look at how they acted at the funeral, look at how they later acted because of that action.

Hu?
I wasn't saying Kallen didn't question anything.
But I disagree with the notion that she thought about Shirley's father in particular as much as Lelouch did.

[Frostfire]

Hu?
I wasn't saying Kallen didn't question anything.
But I disagree with the notion that she thought about Shirley's father in particular as much as Lelouch did.

I said she did? You misunderstood me, I said that she simply had her own negative reaction to it, like Lelouch.

[Nogitsune]

I said she did? You misunderstood me, I said that she simply had her own negative reaction to it, like Lelouch.

Ah, okay, then I think we don't need to argue about this point. xD

[lovecakecookies]

No. Since he develloped too romantic feelings for Kallen :D
If she and he had survived, I think we would have get a Code geass fumoffu, with a love triangle with the hot blooded girl and the nice one. Classic :D

And yep I noticed it too about CC and her pizza club; Picture drama is totally canon, so I don't think Lelouch would have forgot CC and the realisation of her beloved pizza club in his perfect world :p

yup...I agree that it is odd that C.C is not in it..

but then again she is the narrator and another odd thing is why the hell are Gino and Anya in it?! wth?

[incorrupts]

Hu?
I wasn't saying Kallen didn't question anything.
But I disagree with the notion that she thought about Shirley's father in particular as much as Lelouch did.

Isn't this kind of default? Kallen was not bffs with Shirley. Still, she saw from close up the tragedy BK caused, and that was enough to make her doubt the reasons she is terrorist and if she can really change the world with these actions. Then came Lulu with his epic speech.

[Nogitsune]

Isn't this kind of default? Kallen was not bffs with Shirley. Still, she saw from close up the tragedy BK caused, and that was enough to make her doubt the reasons she is terrorist and if she can really change the world with these actions. Then came Lulu with his epic speech.

I know. It was a misunderstanding. xD

[SonOfHeaven]

Been viewing the pasr few pages-

Well, Kallen would have killed Lelouch because he went against everyone and became the enemy of the world like Xing-ke said. We have to look at Kallen's character, she wouldn't go against BK without a very good reason and Lelouch said nothing. I can't blame Kallen for deciding what she had to do. I'm more upset Kallen didn't get to Lelouch, to see her so determined and fall short. I would have thought she would have like Suzaku at the end from season 1. Having Kallen lose conscious in front of Lelouch would have been a nice touch.

Also enough of the generalization of members being kalulu, shirlulu or whatever hating on one another. Its rather annoying and pointless to see that. If someone needs to do that at least state who are you referring to specifically. Sometimes this thread gets ridiculous sometimes.

[youngde]

wait.. where the hell is C.C in his dream? funny in the new PD C.C was considered in his dream with her pizza club lol

I thought most people agreed that if Shirley lived, he probably would have ended up with her?

I don't think it's particularly a given who he would have ended up w/ in the end. He had 'more than friends' feelings at least for all three, and his relationship w/ each is too distinct and different from the others to compare them fairly: he's got his more-than-a-partnership w/ C.C., his love/hate-antagonistic-yet-somehow-flirty relationship w/ Kallen and his girl-next-door/known-her-forever-but-now-maybe-there's-something-more thing w/ Shirley. It's impossible to tell which is the number 1 of the the three.

yup...I agree that it is odd that C.C is not in it..

but then again she is the narrator and another odd thing is why the hell are Gino and Anya in it?! wth?

The fact that C.C. doesn't even show up in his ideal school world strikes me as odd as well. As long as it's a dream anyway, why wouldn't she be there? Makes me question the authentisity of this, but I don't particularly find it too shocking anyway. All it does is show he had a bit of a crush on both Kallen and Shirley; he's just too dumb to figure it out and expresses it differently to both because of the difference in the relationships. That's really all there is to it. I don't know why people have been argueing so much over this.

youngde, signing off.

[Nogitsune]

I don't think it's particularly a given who he would have ended up w/ in the end. He had 'more than friends' feelings at least for all three, and his relationship w/ each is too distinct and different from the others to compare them fairly: he's got his more-than-a-partnership w/ C.C., his love/hate-antagonistic-yet-somehow-flirty relationship w/ Kallen and his girl-next-door/known-her-forever-but-now-maybe-there's-something-more thing w/ Shirley. It's impossible to tell which is the number 1 of the the three.


I don't think that Lelouch definitely had any deep romantic feelings for C.C. (or anyone, for the matter, but he at least kissed the other two, which means people will start throwings thing at me if I start with that again xD).
It's possible, but there's absolutely no "proof".

[Sol Falling]

Once again, thanks to Skyless, I have Interwork's thoughts on the Lelouch's Ideal World story.



Enjoy.

This person is like my clone. That's twice we've had the same reaction. Lie, I'm sorry, but I'm gonna have to give the writer of Bokura no Hibi just some credibility. Given that those were the only Code Geass short stories I see commonly referenced and serialized in a magazine, I'm assuming the author has at least some connection with the Code Geass staff. Otherwise, why just them?

Excellent. Now Shirlulu fans are using canon.

I think I too will take my time, look at only the material that I want to look at, and declare that Nanilulu is canon. :heh:

You must not have been here long, 'cause I was calling Shirlulu canon straight from the end of Turn 25. However, it's been limited to 'wankers' such as myself. You also seem to have some impression of hypocrisy, that people are more lenient towards supporters of Shirlulu, but rest assured, I got pounced on for my claims of canon just as much as anyone else.


he never wondered if nina needs (or wants) to atone
he kidnapped her by force

Lelouch may have kidnapped Nina by force, but he didn't force her cooperation. It was enough that he knew that she hated Zero, but had also associated with him in the student council (they were 'friends'). There was a possibility that she'd cooperate if she knew that Zero Requiem was his atonement, and that was enough for him to try.

Also, Nina was already working on a Fleija antimeasure, and Lelouch likely only learned its details through Lloyd and Cecile anyway. It's not difficult to conjecture that Lelouch was aware of Nina's reaction to Fleija's firing.

She was standing out in the rain, broken. You don't need to be about to do drugs to be in a noteable state of despair, and seeking an escape from it. Just because she wasn't about to use refrain doesn't somehow make her situation any different from Lelouch's. Not everyone reacts the same way to a situation, your argument is making the assumption that everyone must react identically. Which is simply never true. Lelouch sought refrain, Shirley decided to stand in the rain like a ghost.

Shirley wasn't focused on Lelouch, she was focused on her dad. That's why she was crying and there to begin with in that state. Lelouch was focused on Nunally, that's why he was losing himself. There are no romantic implications aside from both sought comfort in people they (since everyone loves Freudian logic) saw as people that could comfort them.

I suppose you're unfamiliar with my discussions with morbosfist on that scene. Shirley's standing in the rain, 'brokenness', her insincere monologue, all of that was just a display. She was making a show of herself for pity, because she wanted Lelouch to 'be kind' to her. Her father's frequent absence for work, as well as Shirley's retardly shallow description of him ("He was kind. He never hit me.") all suggest that they weren't particularly close. As Shirley's later guilt makes evident, clearly Shirley wasn't particularly concerned about her father at that point. Her entire focus was on Lelouch, and their ruined date.

The romantic implications? Shirley was preoccupied with Lelouch enough (I hesitate to use 'loved' or 'liked', those don't quite fit what she was feeling then) that her only reaction to her father's death was to attempt to manipulate Lelouch into being kind to her--even if she felt guilty afterwards. The kiss she recieved from Lelouch thus had tremendous personal significance for Shirley (I'd argue that at least some of that carried over to Lelouch as well). Alternatively, Lelouch's desire for 'comfort' was an attempt to escape his preoccupation with Nunally, and thus if Kallen had given in to him, that kiss (and whatever followed) would have no personal significance (regarding Kallen) for him whatsoever. Though it still likely would have been followed by guilt.

But that wasn't your point. You said that this was a plan about people making up for their mistakes. What did any of the people I listed have to make up for? If Lelouch is, as you claimed, only letting in people that have something to make up for, then why did he let any of those people in? He may not have known all of them, but he sure as hell knew Sayako and Jeremiah. The former most of his life. If he can let Sayako in and if he can use Rivalz as a delivery boy, what does he have to keep Kallen out?

Zero Requiem was a plan about making up the mistakes caused by Zero. In Suzaku and Nina's case, they'd both made their own mistakes as well, but the principle point was to remedy the mistakes made by Zero himself. The people who cooperated with Lelouch had to be able to accept his determination to destroy the world and even himself. That is the complete opposite of the justice Kallen was fighting for, and believed Lelouch stood for.

Remind me again what Sayoko actually did in terms of Zero Requiem. As for Rivalz, I'm not sure where you're getting this from. Did Lelouch tell Rivalz to escape with Nina? Did he somehow manipulate him into doing it? All Lelouch did was predict Rivalz would try to help Nina escape, and his rejection of taking Rivalz with her was simply yet another instance of Lelouch pushing away those he cares about. Tell me how the blank impersonality of not even bothering to kidnap Rivalz differs from the face Kallen saw after she kissed him.

She did question her actions. Season 1 Stage 13, she questions them rather vocally. Which you then subsequently dismiss, but it doesn't matter. She questioned her actions invalidating the first point you made.

My point was that Kallen didn't believe she'd made a mistake. She can question all she likes, but if she doesn't believe it, it's meaningless. 'Cause she actually has to definitively identify the consequences of her actions (or Lelouch's) as wrong or not worth the price in order to want (him) to atone.

Kallen didn't believe in Lelouch mistakes? Did you miss Turn 2? She was about to shoot him for them. She may be loyal to Lelouch, but she's not going to just stand by. Neither was Shirley, which is why she got herself killed. What would you be saying, right now, if Shirley hadn't died and Lelouch did the same thing? Because by your reasoning, the same thing would have happened.

I bet the tune would be different.

Pretty snarky, aren't you? Don't make assumptions about people you don't know, because you clearly have no idea what my opinions are.

Kallen didn't confront Lelouch in Turn 2 for his mistakes. She confronted him because she thought he'd been using her. As for Shirley not dying, well, then Zero Requiem wouldn't have happened in the first place. Lelouch wouldn't have commited the Geass Cult massecre, and Suzaku would have begun forgiving him (instead of definitively identifying Lelouch as a dirty criminal). The latter would have made their conversation and subsequent confrontation at Tokyo run much smoother, so that Nunally would not have (appeared to have) been Fleija'd. Without the massecre, Fleija, Schniezel's incriminating voice clip, or Lelouch's irrationality inspired by Nunally's death, the Black Knight's would be significantly less likely to betray him, and Rolo wouldn't have sacrificed himself. He also wouldn't have been separated from Kallen and C.C.. The last half dozen or so points combine, so that Lelouch confronts Charles in a non-suicidal mindframe, and is free afterwards to confront Schniezel in a non-self-destructive manner.

I basically conclude that had Shirley lived, Lelouch would be living in his ideal world right about now. Because up until her death, Lelouch was also living for his own dream (fireworks with everybody, which that short story is basically an extension of). Although Zero Requiem was (to everybody else) about righting Lelouch's mistakes, I think for Lelouch himself it was about laying down to rest. Had he still had Shirley, Rolo, and Nunally when he conceptualized it, I'm sure he would've figured out a way to give the world a future without killing himself--something anyone could get behind (i.e. no reason to push Shirley, Kallen, or anyone else away).

Suzaku had an issue with it, he was simply convinced otherwise because he had reasons himself to want Lelouch dead. Who said he'd have to force Kallen, either? If he tells her the right thing or if he lies, then she will follow him. Instead he doesn't say diddly. If he really didn't want her involved at all then why didn't he lie to her and chase her off?

Uh, he pretty much did chase her off. Or did I not see Kallen turning away from him in tears? And if you think Lelouch should have lied to her to get her to agree to kill him, you've clearly missed the whole point. One of the aspects of Zero Requiem which differentiated it from his time with the Black Knights was that all of his allies knew exactly what he wanted to do, and why he was doing it.

[Rising Dragon]

This person is like my clone. That's twice we've had the same reaction.

Yeah, she's pretty cool, Interwork is.

[morbosfist]

As for Shirley not dying, well, then Zero Requiem wouldn't have happened in the first place. Lelouch wouldn't have commited the Geass Cult massecre, and Suzaku would have begun forgiving him (instead of definitively identifying Lelouch as a dirty criminal).I'm sure I've disagreed with this before, but I don't see how he would have begun forgiving him. As Turn 18 and 21 show, Suzaku's got the memory of a fish when it comes to that sort of thing. In Turn 17 he was ready to forgive Zero, then the meeting is fucked up because of his carelessness (really, if you're going to arrange a secret meeting, make sure you're not followed) and he's right back to wanting Zero punished in 18. He remembers that both Shirley and Euphy didn't finger Lelouch as Zero in 21, yet still goes back to revenge mere minutes later. I'll admit that Shirley can build bridges, but covering that gap is like trying to bridge the Grand Canyon the long way. Simply put, only Lelouch himself, and outright agreeing to die at that, were enough to get him to play ball.

The latter would have made their conversation and subsequent confrontation at Tokyo run much smoother, so that Nunally would not have (appeared to have) been Fleija'd. Without the massecre, Fleija, Schniezel's incriminating voice clip, or Lelouch's irrationality inspired by Nunally's death, the Black Knight's would be significantly less likely to betray him, and Rolo wouldn't have sacrificed himself. He also wouldn't have been separated from Kallen and C.C.. The last half dozen or so points combine, so that Lelouch confronts Charles in a non-suicidal mindframe, and is free afterwards to confront Schniezel in a non-self-destructive manner.Assuming the conversation even happened, which it wouldn't since he'd never meet the Emperor at the cult, it would have actually kept him away from Kallen. Suzaku was pissed when Lelouch attacked Tokyo after their meeting went south, and that was the only way Kallen was coming home. Of course, the meeting would go down the same regardless, since Schenizel's spying is independent of those events, and the rest would play out similarly.

I basically conclude that had Shirley lived, Lelouch would be living in his ideal world right about now. Because up until her death, Lelouch was also living for his own dream (fireworks with everybody, which that short story is basically an extension of). Although Zero Requiem was (to everybody else) about righting Lelouch's mistakes, I think for Lelouch himself it was about laying down to rest. Had he still had Shirley, Rolo, and Nunally when he conceptualized it, I'm sure he would've figured out a way to give the world a future without killing himself--something anyone could get behind (i.e. no reason to push Shirley, Kallen, or anyone else away).Shirley would not have been enough to stop him, I think. When he lost the Black Knights he lost the ability to affect change in a rational manner, and losing Rolo would go hand in hand with that. He'd push Shirley away same as he did Kallen to complete his plan, because in light of the world nearly being tanged he just lost faith in humanity getting the message through normal means.

[Sol Falling]

I don't think it's particularly a given who he would have ended up w/ in the end. He had 'more than friends' feelings at least for all three, and his relationship w/ each is too distinct and different from the others to compare them fairly: he's got his more-than-a-partnership w/ C.C., his love/hate-antagonistic-yet-somehow-flirty relationship w/ Kallen and his girl-next-door/known-her-forever-but-now-maybe-there's-something-more thing w/ Shirley. It's impossible to tell which is the number 1 of the the three.

I disagree (also with your characterization of Lelouch's relationship with Shirley) but whatever.

The fact that C.C. doesn't even show up in his ideal school world strikes me as odd as well. As long as it's a dream anyway, why wouldn't she be there? Makes me question the authentisity of this, but I don't particularly find it too shocking anyway. All it does is show he had a bit of a crush on both Kallen and Shirley; he's just too dumb to figure it out and expresses it differently to both because of the difference in the relationships. That's really all there is to it. I don't know why people have been argueing so much over this.

youngde, signing off.

*sigh* given some stuff I've read about the general fanservice-y atmosphere of the Picture Dramas, the short story certainly feels more canon. C.C. wasn't part of Lelouch's Ashford existance, the 'everyone' he wanted to watch fireworks with. And in fact, it was the very Geass she gave him which tore it apart in the first place. Although Lelouch told her in Turn 24 that his mistakes were all his own fault, and that he didn't blame her, she is still intricately associated with the existance which destroyed what he cherished. Thus I don't find it surprising that she'd only look at that dream from afar.

If you look at Lelouch and C.C.'s relationship, it's all about singularity. "Geass will make you lonely." "I will be the only one left beside you." "I am the ally you should rely on." "I will make you smile." Even especially, "Push away the things you hold dear." It's a closed, selfish relationship, practically built upon the idea that C.C. is (supposedly) the only constant in Lelouch's life. This dynamic simply cannot apply in Lelouch's dream Ashford, where Lelouch sees and cherishes a 'happiness-like-light' reflecting off of his 'relationships-like-glass' with everyone. This is also why it's important that the ultimate reflection of C.C.'s development is her living on apart from Lelouch: it signals her evolution beyond a bond with a single other borne from a curse, into somebody who believed in the wideness of a world looking towards the future.

[Frostfire]

I suppose you're unfamiliar with my discussions with morbosfist on that scene. Shirley's standing in the rain, 'brokenness', her insincere monologue, all of that was just a display. She was making a show of herself for pity, because she wanted Lelouch to 'be kind' to her. Her father's frequent absence for work, as well as Shirley's retardly shallow description of him ("He was kind. He never hit me.") all suggest that they weren't particularly close. As Shirley's later guilt makes evident, clearly Shirley wasn't particularly concerned about her father at that point. Her entire focus was on Lelouch, and their ruined date.

So, if I am understanding you, she exploited the situation to get what she wanted.

What did Lelouch do? He exploited the situation to get what he wanted. His sleeping with Kallen certainly had nothing to do with getting Nunally back, just as Shirley's actions towards Lelouch had shit to do with her Dad magically getting revived.

I don't really see how this helps you or hurts my point in any way shape or form. They are recipricals under notably different situations, but their actions are roughly similar. How, exactly, are they different? Lelouch lost a bucket ton more than Shirley, so his crash was notably more severe. But they still attempted to seek comfort from others and not think about what they had lost. Shirley used her father to get Lelouch's pity, and get comfort. Lelouch did the same thing with Kallen, just that she was the one who talked about Nunally.

The only point you can argue in this is Freudian of what Lelouch saw in Kallen. I can easily say that he wanted her because it was her. You can easily say the opposite, and this won't get anywhere.

The romantic implications? Shirley was preoccupied with Lelouch enough (I hesitate to use 'loved' or 'liked', those don't quite fit what she was feeling then) that her only reaction to her father's death was to attempt to manipulate Lelouch into being kind to her--even if she felt guilty afterwards. The kiss she recieved from Lelouch thus had tremendous personal significance for Shirley (I'd argue that at least some of that carried over to Lelouch as well). Alternatively, Lelouch's desire for 'comfort' was an attempt to escape his preoccupation with Nunally, and thus if Kallen had given in to him, that kiss (and whatever followed) would have no personal significance (regarding Kallen) for him whatsoever. Though it still likely would have been followed by guilt.

That was hardly her only reaction. What about her reaction when she found him dead? She did not get to Lelouch immediately after, she first cried her eyes out. And as you said, she wanted him to be kind to her, she was after his comfort. Like Lelouch was after Kallen's comfort. They had different circumstances, vastly different, but they ultimately sought the same thing.

I do not see how you can see it was his attempt to escape Nunally, any more than Shirley's usage of Lelouch was her trying to escape her father's death.

Here we are again employing Freudian logic. Unless you can read their minds, you cannot say such a thing matter-of-factly. Lelouch saw Kallen, in that instance, as someone he wanted comfort from. You won't say that he did it because he saw Kallen as someone he was attracted to, obviously, because that goes against your point. But you also cannot say what you are saying so flatly because you do not know. Maybe it would have had a personal significance for him, you do not know. He's done enough with her to make it just as plausible as none at all.


Zero Requiem was a plan about making up the mistakes caused by Zero. In Suzaku and Nina's case, they'd both made their own mistakes as well, but the principle point was to remedy the mistakes made by Zero himself. The people who cooperated with Lelouch had to be able to accept his determination to destroy the world and even himself. That is the complete opposite of the justice Kallen was fighting for, and believed Lelouch stood for.

Remind me again what Sayoko actually did in terms of Zero Requiem. As for Rivalz, I'm not sure where you're getting this from. Did Lelouch tell Rivalz to escape with Nina? Did he somehow manipulate him into doing it? All Lelouch did was predict Rivalz would try to help Nina escape, and his rejection of taking Rivalz with her was simply yet another instance of Lelouch pushing away those he cares about. Tell me how the blank impersonality of not even bothering to kidnap Rivalz differs from the face Kallen saw after she kissed him.

So we're going to continue shaping ZR to fit our argument? The justice Kallen was after was a kind world, just like what Nunally was after. You make it sound like Kallen is an idiot. If she understands what the plan is, then she will see that it is still the exact same Lelouch, standing for exactly what he was standing for the entire time. You can't say that it is the opposite of what she believed he stood for when he did nothing different from normal. She's known of his crimes, his geassing Euphemia, and so on, she still followed him. All the evil he's commited to better the world, you just completely throw that out.

Lelouch predicted it, and used it to his advantage. He used Rivalz, how is that hard to see? He rejected him from then on because he was useless but he still used him to that point. He pushed him away after using him, don't take just the half that suits you. He used him, then discarded him. Tell me how his using Rivalz as a messenger boy is at all comparable to how he treated Kallen.


My point was that Kallen didn't believe she'd made a mistake. She can question all she likes, but if she doesn't believe it, it's meaningless. 'Cause she actually has to definitively identify the consequences of her actions (or Lelouch's) as wrong or not worth the price in order to want (him) to atone.


Wtf? She questioned herself and him, that is questioning whether you are doing the right or wrong thing. If she didn't believe it, the scene wouldn't have happened.

Kallen didn't confront Lelouch in Turn 2 for his mistakes. She confronted him because she thought he'd been using her. As for Shirley not dying, well, then Zero Requiem wouldn't have happened in the first place. Lelouch wouldn't have commited the Geass Cult massecre, and Suzaku would have begun forgiving him (instead of definitively identifying Lelouch as a dirty criminal). The latter would have made their conversation and subsequent confrontation at Tokyo run much smoother, so that Nunally would not have (appeared to have) been Fleija'd. Without the massecre, Fleija, Schniezel's incriminating voice clip, or Lelouch's irrationality inspired by Nunally's death, the Black Knight's would be significantly less likely to betray him, and Rolo wouldn't have sacrificed himself. He also wouldn't have been separated from Kallen and C.C.. The last half dozen or so points combine, so that Lelouch confronts Charles in a non-suicidal mindframe, and is free afterwards to confront Schniezel in a non-self-destructive manner.

The only thing that I really need to say: If Kallen had never been captured, forcing Lelouch to go OOC to get her back, then Shirley would never have even been involved with him for the season.

No offense, but when someone applies this much Freudian to an argument and states things as if they can read the minds of the characters and see the future, I get really turned off from it. So I might not reply.

[Lie]

*sigh* given some stuff I've read about the general fanservice-y atmosphere of the Picture Dramas, the short story certainly feels more canon. C.C. wasn't part of Lelouch's Ashford existance, the 'everyone' he wanted to watch fireworks with. And in fact, it was the very Geass she gave him which tore it apart in the first place. Although Lelouch told her in Turn 24 that his mistakes were all his own fault, and that he didn't blame her, she is still intricately associated with the existance which destroyed what he cherished. Thus I don't find it surprising that she'd only look at that dream from afar.

They still contribute to the story, and are still canon. They are done by the creators, no just some random staff members.
This NT story contradicts the most recent PD.
Makes you wonder why PD3 was between Kallen and Lelouch too, if he was apperantely so in love with Shirley.

[incorrupts]

The only thing that I really need to say: If Kallen had never been captured, forcing Lelouch to go OOC to get her back, then Shirley would never have even been involved with him for the season.

Funny thing Frost, i did not realize you were the writer.

[Frostfire]

Funny thing Frost, i did not realize you were the writer.

Its a secret, don't tell anyone. Fine. I won't bother using exactly what Sol did, making a generalized blanket statement as if they could read the future or the writers' minds, because I'm apperantely going to get called out for it.

[Charred Knight]

They still contribute to the story, and are still canon. They are done by the creators, no just some random staff members.
This NT story contradicts the most recent PD.
Makes you wonder why PD3 was between Kallen and Lelouch too, if he was apperantely so in love with Shirley.

Because Shirley isn't popular?

The average picture drama is really to short to give us any real insight, if they wanted to give us huge insight into Code Geass than they sure as hell wouldn't use picture dramas, they would use novels like how Blizzard has novel series that explains the story of Warcraft, and how things got to be the way they where.

[incorrupts]

Because Shirley isn't popular?

If the staff wanted to have the Picture Dramas give us insight into the world of Code Geass they would have. Most of the picture dramas are non important, its not like what Blizzard does which is make sure that each comic/novel tells an important story.

Exactly.

Then again when it comes to Shirley, people dismiss things like, lines from the script being cut {S1 episode 14}.
Of course, Kallen fans can complain about the gumline as well. And C.C fans about her name. It is a never-ending circle actually.

[Grey Dawn]

Oh my, what a tussel I missed while traveling for Thanksgiving. And I thought the NT Booklet had caused a bit too large of a debate.

Humor me a bit. Is there going to be any actual discussion of new material anymore or just pure, unadulterated shipping?

[Frostfire]

Oh my, what a tussel I missed while traveling for Thanksgiving. And I thought the NT Booklet had caused a bit too large of a debate.

Humor me a bit. Is there going to be any actual discussion of new material anymore or just pure, unadulterated shipping?

The latter.

[Sol Falling]

I'm sure I've disagreed with this before, but I don't see how he would have begun forgiving him. As Turn 18 and 21 show, Suzaku's got the memory of a fish when it comes to that sort of thing. In Turn 17 he was ready to forgive Zero, then the meeting is fucked up because of his carelessness (really, if you're going to arrange a secret meeting, make sure you're not followed) and he's right back to wanting Zero punished in 18. He remembers that both Shirley and Euphy didn't finger Lelouch as Zero in 21, yet still goes back to revenge mere minutes later. I'll admit that Shirley can build bridges, but covering that gap is like trying to bridge the Grand Canyon the long way. Simply put, only Lelouch himself, and outright agreeing to die at that, were enough to get him to play ball.

Yeah, we've disagreed. I guess I'm resuming the conversation.

I think principle to Suzaku's attitude towards Lelouch in 17 was his identification that Lelouch was Shirley's killer. A year had passed since Euphie's death, and as Turn 8 showed, Suzaku's heart had already begun seeking answers rather than revenge. You can even see this in Suzaku's initial hesitation to identify Lelouch as the revived Zero--Suzaku did not want to see Lelouch as a criminal, so he irrationally held onto the hope that Lelouch hadn't regained his memories. The immediacy of Shirley's death, however, made his mind up for him: he could not afford the (what he saw as) vain hope that Lelouch was not the Zero who had betrayed him, and one day the entire world.

Anyway, his interactions with Lelouch afterwards were coloured by that. The despair of not being able to believe in his friend. In his mind, his leniency had already caused two tragedies. It was not until he was faced with the consequences of this prejudice, Lelouch's death by his hand, that he was able to release it.

So to restate what's relevant: Shirley's death was a trigger for Suzaku's prejudice. Without it, his reconciliation with Lelouch would have occured much earlier.

Assuming the conversation even happened, which it wouldn't since he'd never meet the Emperor at the cult, it would have actually kept him away from Kallen. Suzaku was pissed when Lelouch attacked Tokyo after their meeting went south, and that was the only way Kallen was coming home. Of course, the meeting would go down the same regardless, since Schenizel's spying is independent of those events, and the rest would play out similarly.

See above about Suzaku. Lelouch's mindframe played a role during the battle of Tokyo as well. As for the conversation not happening in the first place, I don't really mind, 'cause then Schniezel's spying wouldn't have happened at all, and that'd support my main point that Lelouch wouldn't have resorted to Zero Requiem had Shirley survived.

I still think Lelouch and Suzaku's attitudes played an important part in how that conversation played out, however. So even had it occurred, and Schniezel spied on them, something would be different. Remember that the clip Schniezel ending up using came from the most hurtful part of Suzaku's rant, where he was basically treating Lelouch's entire existance like that of an unfeeling, inhuman betrayer. Although Suzaku started believing that in Stage 25, the resurgence of that attitude was only caused by the circumstantial evidence surrounding Shirley's death (Shirley having regained her memories, Zero/Lelouch being in the area, her death being apparently a suicide (easily suggesting Lelouch's geass), and Lelouch going missing afterwards). Had Suzaku approached him in a questioning rather than accusatory manner, Schniezel'd have to look elsewhere for incriminating material.

Shirley would not have been enough to stop him, I think. When he lost the Black Knights he lost the ability to affect change in a rational manner, and losing Rolo would go hand in hand with that. He'd push Shirley away same as he did Kallen to complete his plan, because in light of the world nearly being tanged he just lost faith in humanity getting the message through normal means.

I didn't really say anything about what Shirley might have done to stop him. Rather, this point relies only on the basic assumption that Lelouch's suicidal attitude in Turn 19 was in response to having lost 'everything': Shirley was dead, Rolo was dead, Nunally was 'dead'. He basically had nothing left to live for; that's why, even though Zero Requiem gave him a purpose, it still ended in his death. Remove that suicidal desire, and a different plan is formed. That's basically the endpoint of my whole argument with this anyway.


So, if I am understanding you, she exploited the situation to get what she wanted.

What did Lelouch do? He exploited the situation to get what he wanted. His sleeping with Kallen certainly had nothing to do with getting Nunally back, just as Shirley's actions towards Lelouch had shit to do with her Dad magically getting revived.

I don't really see how this helps you or hurts my point in any way shape or form. They are recipricals under notably different situations, but their actions are roughly similar. How, exactly, are they different? Lelouch lost a bucket ton more than Shirley, so his crash was notably more severe. But they still attempted to seek comfort from others and not think about what they had lost. Shirley used her father to get Lelouch's pity, and get comfort. Lelouch did the same thing with Kallen, just that she was the one who talked about Nunally.

The only point you can argue in this is Freudian of what Lelouch saw in Kallen. I can easily say that he wanted her because it was her. You can easily say the opposite, and this won't get anywhere.

That was hardly her only reaction. What about her reaction when she found him dead? She did not get to Lelouch immediately after, she first cried her eyes out. And as you said, she wanted him to be kind to her, she was after his comfort. Like Lelouch was after Kallen's comfort. They had different circumstances, vastly different, but they ultimately sought the same thing.

I do not see how you can see it was his attempt to escape Nunally, any more than Shirley's usage of Lelouch was her trying to escape her father's death.

Here we are again employing Freudian logic. Unless you can read their minds, you cannot say such a thing matter-of-factly. Lelouch saw Kallen, in that instance, as someone he wanted comfort from. You won't say that he did it because he saw Kallen as someone he was attracted to, obviously, because that goes against your point. But you also cannot say what you are saying so flatly because you do not know. Maybe it would have had a personal significance for him, you do not know. He's done enough with her to make it just as plausible as none at all.

Here's the point, since you're not getting it. What did Shirley say to get Lelouch to comfort her? "Lelouch...save me." What did Lelouch say to get Kallen to comfort him? "There are things you can do as a woman." Was Lelouch attracted? Sure, why not. Would recieving the kiss have been personally meaningful? No.

Jesus, this point was not supposed to get that long.

So we're going to continue shaping ZR to fit our argument? The justice Kallen was after was a kind world, just like what Nunally was after. You make it sound like Kallen is an idiot. If she understands what the plan is, then she will see that it is still the exact same Lelouch, standing for exactly what he was standing for the entire time. You can't say that it is the opposite of what she believed he stood for when he did nothing different from normal. She's known of his crimes, his geassing Euphemia, and so on, she still followed him. All the evil he's commited to better the world, you just completely throw that out.

A Lelouch who wants to kill himself...is the exact same Lelouch, huh? I'm not saying that Kallen forgot all of the evil Lelouch had committed. I'm saying she was okay with it. That's why she continued following him, after all. The point of Zero Requiem was that Lelouch was not okay with it (anymore). Or more like, Suzaku was not okay with it and Lelouch wanted to die. These things oppose Kallen's interests, okay?

Lelouch predicted it, and used it to his advantage. He used Rivalz, how is that hard to see? He rejected him from then on because he was useless but he still used him to that point. He pushed him away after using him, don't take just the half that suits you. He used him, then discarded him. Tell me how his using Rivalz as a messenger boy is at all comparable to how he treated Kallen.

Okay, and? Lelouch also 'used' Kallen blowing up Lancelot Albion to declare that the Knight of Zero was dead. He totally manipulated and took advantage of her, what an asshole amirite.

Wtf? She questioned herself and him, that is questioning whether you are doing the right or wrong thing. If she didn't believe it, the scene wouldn't have happened.

lol, so now you're telling me questioning == believing. Right. You're also clearly misunderstanding me if you think that scene is even relevant. Suzaku and Nina don't 'question' Lelouch's actions. In fact, Suzaku goes out of his way to make sure Lelouch doesn't waver. What Suzaku and Nina desire, and what Lelouch is willing to oblige, is to make him pay. They are clearly on the side of "Lelouch you were wrong". Acceptance of this is critical to being able to participate in helping him kill himself. Do you really think Kallen, who last we saw was saying she'd die for his sorry (wrong) ass, fits in there?

The only thing that I really need to say: If Kallen had never been captured, forcing Lelouch to go OOC to get her back, then Shirley would never have even been involved with him for the season.

I don't see the connection. Also elaborate on what you mean by Lelouch going OOC. Zero, yeah sure, but Lelouch? Development in Turn 07 and Turn 09 say otherwise.

No offense, but when someone applies this much Freudian to an argument and states things as if they can read the minds of the characters and see the future, I get really turned off from it. So I might not reply.

You are using Freudian as a noun, and I don't know what it means. I can read characters' minds and see the future, though. At least better than you.

They still contribute to the story, and are still canon. They are done by the creators, no just some random staff members.
This NT story contradicts the most recent PD.
Makes you wonder why PD3 was between Kallen and Lelouch too, if he was apperantely so in love with Shirley.

Yeah, so you have something against me. You say 'apparently', but I've not seen anybody on this board (least of all myself) claim Lelouch was 'so in love with Shirley'. I've taken what you've said regarding the 'canonicity' of stuff at face value thus far, but an attitude like that is hurting your credibility.

[Frostfire]

Here's the point, since you're not getting it. What did Shirley say to get Lelouch to comfort her? "Lelouch...save me." What did Lelouch say to get Kallen to comfort him? "There are things you can do as a woman." Was Lelouch attracted? Sure, why not. Would recieving the kiss have been personally meaningful? No.

Jesus, this point was not supposed to get that long.

My point was that they sought the same thing, comfort. You have yet to show otherwise. The reason they acted differently was, as I said, that they had different circumstances. Lelouch lost his reason to live, Shirley lost her dad. Doesn't change that they, ultimately, still sought the same thing. Making the scenarios not all that different, neither was good. As such, neither held good romantic value.

If you want to argue that all that Shirley had on her mind was Lelouch (many hours after finding out her father had died) and that this is somehow positive, then I can argue that the fact that Lelouch (hours after losing his sister in person) seeing Kallen as someone he wanted comfort from as a positive.

Its not like Shirley lost her dad and five minutes later met Lelouch. We are talking hours later. She had time. She didn't just run to him to save her.

Why wouldn't the kiss have been meaningful if it had happened? Why did Shirley have any meaning if Lelouch's wouldn't? Lelouch certainly didn't see Shirley as a lover when she confronted him. And its not like Lelouch doesn't care for Kallen at this point, otherwise why would he do the things he does for her and around her? Just like with Shirley?


A Lelouch who wants to kill himself...is the exact same Lelouch, huh? I'm not saying that Kallen forgot all of the evil Lelouch had committed. I'm saying she was okay with it. That's why she continued following him, after all. The point of Zero Requiem was that Lelouch was not okay with it (anymore). Or more like, Suzaku was not okay with it and Lelouch wanted to die. These things oppose Kallen's interests, okay?


A Lelouch who wants to save the world is the same Lelouch. His methods changed slightly his goal did not. Lelouch always acted the part of evil, he simply never wanted to kill himself. Perhaps if Kallen had been involved, like you reasoned with Shirley, he wouldn't have died. Who knows? You and I certainly don't.

So she was okay with his evil, but he wasn't... because he then proceeded to create even more evil and submerge the world in it? And she opposed him. That clearly means she was okay with his evil... She wasn't okay with his evil. She accepted it as a necessary part, just as Lelouch had accepted it. Neither of them were 'fine' with it however.

Lelouch wanted to fix the world, and made a decision how to go about it, probably because of what Suzaku wanted from him. That is what happened. The only part that goes against Kallen's interest is him dying.


Okay, and? Lelouch also 'used' Kallen blowing up Lancelot Albion to declare that the Knight of Zero was dead. He totally manipulated and took advantage of her, what an asshole amirite.

... He did? I'm pretty sure Suzaku was openly trying to beat her, and that he admitted, to his surprise, that he had been beaten. If Lelouch 'used' Kallen to beat Suzaku, Suzaku wouldn't have been trying to win. Yet he was. Your point is moot.


lol, so now you're telling me questioning == believing. Right. You're also clearly misunderstanding me if you think that scene is even relevant. Suzaku and Nina don't 'question' Lelouch's actions. In fact, Suzaku goes out of his way to make sure Lelouch doesn't waver. What Suzaku and Nina desire, and what Lelouch is willing to oblige, is to make him pay. They are clearly on the side of "Lelouch you were wrong". Acceptance of this is critical to being able to participate in helping him kill himself. Do you really think Kallen, who last we saw was saying she'd die for his sorry (wrong) ass, fits in there?

What? Are we even talking about the same thing? Suzaku, like Kallen, questioned Lelouch prior to ZR. If we are talking about during ZR, she obviously cannot question him beyond "what are you doing" because he didn't tell her anything.


I don't see the connection. Also elaborate on what you mean by Lelouch going OOC. Zero, yeah sure, but Lelouch? Development in Turn 07 and Turn 09 say otherwise.

Because he went out of character by breaking his Zero mask, maybe? Which he's broken all of once, for Nunally at the end of Season 1? Acting OOC as Zero, is OOC for Lelouch who has almost always put up the perfect act.


You are using Freudian as a noun, and I don't know what it means. I can read characters' minds and see the future, though. At least better than you.


I'm using Freudian (logic) as a noun. I figured the obviously omitted and repeated word 'logic' would have become understood by now, so I truncated.

And that's rather assenine a comment if I ever saw one. You can't read characters minds, you can assume on what the characters are thinking. But thank you for telling me you are better than me at being... something special?

[morbosfist]

I think principle to Suzaku's attitude towards Lelouch in 17 was his identification that Lelouch was Shirley's killer. A year had passed since Euphie's death, and as Turn 8 showed, Suzaku's heart had already begun seeking answers rather than revenge. You can even see this in Suzaku's initial hesitation to identify Lelouch as the revived Zero--Suzaku did not want to see Lelouch as a criminal, so he irrationally held onto the hope that Lelouch hadn't regained his memories. The immediacy of Shirley's death, however, made his mind up for him: he could not afford the (what he saw as) vain hope that Lelouch was not the Zero who had betrayed him, and one day the entire world.I'd have to rewatch to be sure, but I get the distinct impression that Suzaku wants Lelouch to remember because he wants answers, but cannot reconcile that belief with the obvious fact that Lelouch can't be in two places at once. It's only when Shirley dies does he solidify that belief. Even before Shirley's death, Suzaku is really freaking stubborn about letting Zero go because he's a criminal, which extends to Lelouch.

In other words, though Shirley's death may have helped cement his position, all other things equal I imagine he would be only slightly less critical during their conversation. Euphy's death is what was pushing him.

Anyway, his interactions with Lelouch afterwards were coloured by that. The despair of not being able to believe in his friend. In his mind, his leniency had already caused two tragedies. It was not until he was faced with the consequences of this prejudice, Lelouch's death by his hand, that he was able to release it.His interactions with Lelouch before were also colored by that, just not as openly. Suzaku couldn't interact with "no memories" Lelouch following Shirley's death because Lelouch outright abandoned that pretense, so we can't really say how it would have affected any conversation to that end, though I imagine he would have tried to pound some answers out of Lelouch. I'll agree with that last part.

So to restate what's relevant: Shirley's death was a trigger for Suzaku's prejudice. Without it, his reconciliation with Lelouch would have occured much earlier.I just don't see it that way. Suzaku is simply unwilling, in every instance, to hold on to that forgiveness. He lets it go at the slightest opportunity and makes no effort whatsoever to rekindle it, even when it's his own fault.

See above about Suzaku. Lelouch's mindframe played a role during the battle of Tokyo as well. As for the conversation not happening in the first place, I don't really mind, 'cause then Schniezel's spying wouldn't have happened at all, and that'd support my main point that Lelouch wouldn't have resorted to Zero Requiem had Shirley survived.If the conversation never happened, he'd have attacked Tokyo, and Suzaku would drag that bomb out under the same pretense of punishing Zero. Events would fall into line the same way up until the Black Knights' betraying him, which might go the same way if Villetta spilled the beans.

I still think Lelouch and Suzaku's attitudes played an important part in how that conversation played out, however. So even had it occurred, and Schniezel spied on them, something would be different. Remember that the clip Schniezel ending up using came from the most hurtful part of Suzaku's rant, where he was basically treating Lelouch's entire existance like that of an unfeeling, inhuman betrayer. Although Suzaku started believing that in Stage 25, the resurgence of that attitude was only caused by the circumstantial evidence surrounding Shirley's death (Shirley having regained her memories, Zero/Lelouch being in the area, her death being apparently a suicide (easily suggesting Lelouch's geass), and Lelouch going missing afterwards). Had Suzaku approached him in a questioning rather than accusatory manner, Schniezel'd have to look elsewhere for incriminating material.He'd get the incriminating material one way or another, because Suzaku would be just as vocal about getting answers on the things that matter, i.e. Euphy's death. Lelouch's response would be exactly the same, because he simply refuses to make excuses.

I didn't really say anything about what Shirley might have done to stop him. Rather, this point relies only on the basic assumption that Lelouch's suicidal attitude in Turn 19 was in response to having lost 'everything': Shirley was dead, Rolo was dead, Nunally was 'dead'. He basically had nothing left to live for; that's why, even though Zero Requiem gave him a purpose, it still ended in his death. Remove that suicidal desire, and a different plan is formed. That's basically the endpoint of my whole argument with this anyway.Losing Nunnally and the Black Knights is what drove him over the edge. Rolo and Shirley were afterthoughts in that. I just can't buy that the existence of Shirley alone would be enough to dissuade him. Kallen he was just as close to, if not closer, and he had the resolve to brush her off. He could do the same to Shirley.

[bladeofdarkness]

actually having kallen back was enough to make him feel somewhat better after nunnaly died
he stops being comatuse the momnet she enters the room (watch it if you dont belive me,he goes from coma to fully functional)
its the idea of losing her as well (in the sa way that sherly died) that made him push her away

[Spring_sakura111]

actually having kallen back was enough to make him feel somewhat better after nunnaly died
he stops being comatuse the momnet she enters the room (watch it if you dont belive me,he goes from coma to fully functional)
its the idea of losing her as well (in the sa way that sherly died) that made him push her away

Damn it. If Moe C.C. wasn't Moe C.C. at that time , Normal C.C. could've done something to comfort Lelouch. >.<

[Nobodyman9]

Once again I'm late for the party. But let me see if I've got the gist of it.

There has been a non-official and non-canon fanfiction, written by an author with a fair amount of credence, that has been published in NewType, one of the most popular and credited magazines about anime, that suggests Shirlulu (and possibly Kalulu to sate the fans) would occur in Lelouch's ideal world. However, the author has been given some recognition as his/her material could be considered "supplementary or secondary canon," so the story could be realizable, but only if you look at it in the most liberal way possible.

Good enough for me.

And it was a really nice story to boot.:D

[Shadowcatch]

Once again I'm late for the party. But let me see if I've got the gist of it.

There has been a non-official and non-canon fanfiction, written by an author with a fair amount of credence, that has been published in NewType, one of the most popular and credited magazines about anime, that suggests Shirlulu (and possibly Kalulu to sate the fans) would occur in Lelouch's ideal world. However, the author has been given some recognition as his/her material could be considered "supplementary or secondary canon," so the story could be realizable, but only if you look at it in the most liberal way possible.

Good enough for me.

And it was a really nice story to boot.:D

Sate the fans? WHAT ABOUT C.C.xxLulu Fans?! I call BS lol. Ahh screw it I'll go write my damn C.C.xxLulu fan fics.

All that happens in this thread is tidbits of information come out SUGGESTING a shipping, then immediately all the fans latch onto it claiming its canon while others try to beat them back. Goign back to episodes and analyzing the way a certain characters face moves or his motives isn't what the writers wanted someone to do for romance I'm guessing. My guess is "Hey, lets make a few possible relationships so everyone can be happy!"

[Nobodyman9]

Sate the fans? WHAT ABOUT C.C.xxLulu Fans?! I call BS lol. Ahh screw it I'll go write my damn C.C.xxLulu fan fics.
Well I never did say C.C.xLulu fans, I meant sate the Kalulu fans (sorry if you C.C.xLulu fans got gipped in this case).

All that happens in this thread is tidbits of information come out SUGGESTING a shipping, then immediately all the fans latch onto it claiming its canon while others try to beat them back.
Yep, I'd say that's pretty accurate. And yet it continues without end.

My guess is "Hey, lets make a few possible relationships so everyone can be happy!"
Well, I see that worked well.

[bladeofdarkness]

Damn it. If Moe C.C. wasn't Moe C.C. at that time , Normal C.C. could've done something to comfort Lelouch. >.<

kallen didnt do anything to comfort him
she never had the chance
she just walked in to the room and that was enough to get him to feel better (he was still sad, but he wasnt catatonic anymore)
when she was going for actual comfort attempt they got ambushed

[Lolipopo]

Damn it. If Moe C.C. wasn't Moe C.C. at that time , Normal C.C. could've done something to comfort Lelouch. >.<

Blame CC who locked herself in her inner world while Lelouch needed help -_-

Seriously I still don't understand the whole concept of Moe CC...I thought it was firstly to give her another try to live a normal life, or it was because she was going to end up like this but no, it was useless O_o

Once again I'm late for the party. But let me see if I've got the gist of it.

There has been a non-official and non-canon fanfiction, written by an author with a fair amount of credence, that has been published in NewType, one of the most popular and credited magazines about anime, that suggests Shirlulu (and possibly Kalulu to sate the fans) would occur in Lelouch's ideal world. However, the author has been given some recognition as his/her material could be considered "supplementary or secondary canon," so the story could be realizable, but only if you look at it in the most liberal way possible.

Good enough for me

You took my words out of my mouth. I definitely can't see this as canon, but it could be a way possible (and it could lead to some romantic comedy really funny...Kallen's thread :D)

[Spring_sakura111]

Blame CC who locked herself in her inner world while Lelouch needed help -_-

Seriously I still don't understand the whole concept of Moe CC...I thought it was firstly to give her another try to live a normal life, or it was because she was going to end up like this but no, it was useless O_o

)

Ha-ha! I have to agree with you there. Maybe it was needed for the Marianne encounter, ne?Still, there are other ways for C.C. and Marianne's reunion. Maybe...Moe C.C. is for the..male audiences.

[dec4rhapsody]

Seems like Kallen's capture and Moe C.C. can be listed together...Hmm, my take on it.
Moe C.C.:
1. MOE, just MOE.
2. Marianya encounter.
3. Something...at least something should let to the point that Lelouch is willing to face Suzaku (and optionally) gets stamped by the latter.

On the other hand, Kallen's capture is just another interruption of all the interruptions in or before her capture which let her never understood Lelouch well enough to figure out ZR.
Oh I did like her dress~

[Nogitsune]

The whole comfort thing is really mostly a matter of interpretation.
I think the main difference is that Shirley would not have jumped anyone but Lelouch, whereas I believe that Lelouch hadn't cared at all if it had been Viletta infront of him.
Errr... wait, scary thought. xD
Not to mention that Viletta would not have just slapped him... *snickers*




Seriously I still don't understand the whole concept of Moe CC...I thought it was firstly to give her another try to live a normal life, or it was because she was going to end up like this but no, it was useless O_o

I always thought the point of that was Lelouch getting to know C.C.'s "old self", so that in the end, they truly understood each other as accomplices.
Sure, C.C. still didn't know Lelouch as good as Suzaku did, but that was almost impossible from the start and doesn't change the fact that Lelouch probably knew her almost as good as she herself did.

[bladeofdarkness]

kallen's capture serves several needs
1) it gives lelouch a reason to go back to ashford rather then stay in the CF and work on the UFN
that way he gets involved in the events of cupid day and sherly's death
it also removes the one person why might have stopped him from commiting mass murder
2)it gives an excuse for the guren to get an upgrade (explining what it has britannian technolegy)
3)it removes kallen from lelouch's side so that she gets some new insight into his relationship with nunnaly and sees his true face (the picture with suzaku)
that last part however doesnt get expressed until the very last moments of the anime since its only at that point that she figures out the truth about his actions (where as no one else does)

P.S
she did understand what he was trying to do
he really was trying to take over the world (which is why she was fighting to stop him)
the only thing that she didnt understand was that taking over the world was just step one of his plan
and can you blame her
who the fuck would think that there is actually someone who would come up with a plan that involves
step 1 - take over world
step 2 - ????
step 3 - profit

[Lolipopo]

The whole comfort thing is really mostly a matter of interpretation.
I think the main difference is that Shirley would not have jumped anyone but Lelouch, whereas I believe that Lelouch hadn't cared at all if it had been Viletta infront of him.
Errr... wait, scary thought. xD
Not to mention that Viletta would not have just slapped him... *snickers*

I always thought the point of that was Lelouch getting to know C.C.'s "old self", so that in the end, they truly understood each other as accomplices.
Sure, C.C. still didn't know Lelouch as good as Suzaku did, but that was almost impossible from the start and doesn't change the fact that Lelouch probably knew her almost as good as she herself did.

About Lelouch who would have jumper anyone I wonder why he didn't jump on Rolo. After all, the guy came litterally hoping for a kiss, and Kallen's slap finally didn't take Lelouch off of his depression state, though he felt guilt about her (damn...why Rolo did have to stop him ?)
Let's be fair, Lelouch asked this to Kallen because he sees her as a woman, a woman he was attracted by (Or what was the point of those teasing ? Why does he keeps to tease her about her look, about "their" relationship...everything take sense because of this secen, where he is seeking for physical confort from Kallen); Lelouch is a teen and...he is not asexual.
He doesn't see CC as a woman, he would have never dare with Shirley (I can't help but think he sees Shirley as a sort of Nunnally, someone he had to protect because she is too pure to be tainted by those things. I really can't see him trying something naughty on her) and about other people, they are not even worth to be quoted.

About Moe CC I disagree; He already saw her during turn 15, and finally even as Moe CC there was no devellopment between them excpet for the fact that Lelouch learned CC wanted friends (about this, her geass was to be loved, and from what CC said I don't think she wanted romantic love, but love in general; After all she told herself she wanted friends) and finally it wasn't even use to devellopp their relationship when CC get back to her original self.

Moe CC was cute, but it was her only point from what I seen. In the plot she was like useless, and stopped any devellopment between Lelouch and CC (which could have been important since Lelouch knew finally everything at the end of turn 15); And the worst was to discover that she did this of her own while Lelouch needed help. It was like the second time, it's kinda sad.

[bladeofdarkness]

i do think that he sees (or at least saw) sherly as a realistic romantic interest in season 1
in R2 however he willingly and intentionally did everything in his power to distance himself from her becouse of what happened between them in season 1
be it guilt or taking that whole "push away those you tresure" bit
he didnt want to get involved with her
he even told villeta and rolo that he doesnt want to drag her into any of his actions (when the actions in question is having her take his ass-hat)
but it doesnt mean that he didnt see her as a woman
just that he was guilty about what happened (he also seemed to feel guilty about it in ep 3)

[Eliarine]

Yeap Eliarine; He didn't need Kallen and her hax mecha cause in the power ranger dream world, Lelouch and Suzaku are able of everything together....oups...then why did he need Nina, geassed soldiers, etc etc...? Nonsense.

Comme je suis gentille je te recite ça :)

And as for ZR, I stand by my belief that Lelouch involved as little close friends as possible in addition to what others have already said. Nina and co were necessary for his plan to work, and he dismissed them as soon as they weren't needed anymore.

Oh and, "Lelouch and Suzaku can do anything together" is not "the power ranger dream world", just the Code Geass world. I believe they made it quite clear several times in the series, including, you know, Zero Requiem itself.

And please stop using such words as "nonsense" to disagree, people are already impolite enough with one another in this thread.

The whole comfort thing is really mostly a matter of interpretation.
I think the main difference is that Shirley would not have jumped anyone but Lelouch, whereas I believe that Lelouch hadn't cared at all if it had been Viletta infront of him.
Errr... wait, scary thought. xD
Not to mention that Viletta would not have just slapped him... *snickers*

I always thought the point of that was Lelouch getting to know C.C.'s "old self", so that in the end, they truly understood each other as accomplices.
Sure, C.C. still didn't know Lelouch as good as Suzaku did, but that was almost impossible from the start and doesn't change the fact that Lelouch probably knew her almost as good as she herself did.

Agreeeeed~~ <3

[Nogitsune]

About Lelouch who would have jumper anyone I wonder why he didn't jump on Rolo. After all, the guy came litterally hoping for a kiss, and Kallen's slap finally didn't take Lelouch off of his depression state, though he felt guilt about her (damn...why Rolo did have to stop him ?)

I think Kallen's slap did bring Lelouch back to reality.
He was still depressed, but not in a state in which he would just jump anyone who came by.
Not to mention that Rolo is a guy, and even if Lelouch was bisexual, he really wouldn't have realized it in this situation and after the Kallen incident. xD

Let's be fair, Lelouch asked this to Kallen because he sees her as a woman, a woman he was attracted by (Or what was the point of those teasing ? Why does he keeps to tease her about her look, about "their" relationship...everything take sense because of this secen, where he is seeking for physical confort from Kallen); Lelouch is a teen and...he is not asexual.

That's really a matter of interpretation, and I don't see the point in constanly repeating myself.
Maybe he had a normal sex-drive, maybe he had a very low one, maybe he thought he had one and really didn't.
Teasing really doesn't mean anything. If that was the case, C.C. would definitely be in love with him.

He doesn't see CC as a woman, he would have never dare with Shirley (I can't help but think he sees Shirley as a sort of Nunnally, someone he had to protect because she is too pure to be tainted by those things. I really can't see him trying something naughty on her) and about other people, they are not even worth to be quoted.

Maybe that's what makes me dislike thinking of Kalulu.
To me, platonic relationships are so much cuter, and since I adore Lelouch and really like Kallen, I want them to have one.
And since I'm stubborn, there's really no point in trying to make me see the light as long has he didn't sleep with her and stated that it was awesome afterwards. xD

About Moe CC I disagree; He already saw her during turn 15, and finally even as Moe CC there was no devellopment between them excpet for the fact that Lelouch learned CC wanted friends (about this, her geass was to be loved, and from what CC said I don't think she wanted romantic love, but love in general; After all she told herself she wanted friends) and finally it wasn't even use to devellopp their relationship when CC get back to her original self.

Yeah, but I think that's mostly because R2 was rushed.

And the worst was to discover that she did this of her own while Lelouch needed help. It was like the second time, it's kinda sad.

Lelouch never gets the hugs he needs.
That's why people write fanfiction. xD
Errr... well, some of those people, at least.

[Lolipopo]

Eliarine : No. Suzaku and Lelouch can do everything is a concept. If you watch the serie you will see that this concept implies a lot of people around them, just like in Zero requiem; because they are together they can do everything, but this doesn’t means that they have to be all alone, and this point ir proved by ZR; Lelouch is an awesome startegist, and he lets go the only person able to screw his ZR (She had two chance to do so; The first time, by killing Lelouch (she didn’t do it because of her OWN hesitation, would Kallen haven’t hesitated, end of ZR), the second time by killing Suzaku (who’se live geass gave him a way to escape alive)
Lelouch needed her simply because she was the bigger threat, and make her believe in him after their kiss wouldn’t have been really hard.

So it doesn’t work with Lelouch’s way to do things usually. But previous posts were talking about this so, you can return a few page back to see more meaningful debate about this.

Now about the close friends things, there is some advancement. You don't seem to consider anymore Kallen as a friend of Rivalz's level.
Now since you don't want consider any materiel about Kallen x Lelouch as canon, I will not hope anything more from your part, but that's already something good.

Nogitsune : (Hmm I don’t like your Lelouch asexual concept, But I like your posts :p)

If Lelouch was asexual, kiss a girl and a guy shouldn’t make any difference. Moreover, we are talking about Rolo; Lelouch was feeling guilty about Kallen, but I don’t think that use Rolo, would have been this much hard to him.

About teasing…no. CC and Lelouch didn’t had any teasing about sexual things between them; Between Lelouch and Kallen, it’s all different, and from Lelouch’s part.
I would have said those didn’t had meaning, if finally, Lelouch hadn’t try to seek comfort from Kallen.
The fact that she is the only one he teased about that and the one from who he wanted comfort doesn’t seems like a surprise, those things are obviously tied and finally everything make sense by then.

About platonic relationship, it depends; If we are talking about love in a romantic way, let’s be realist, the love can’t be only platonic (except if you are a dumb like Hideki from Chobits…-_-’)there is forcefully a moment where physical needs will came into the place.
Now, the only girl Lelouch shown any physical interest was Kallen so …
After, you can prefer platonic of course, and if thats the case, you have a lot of opportunity in the show.
I love Kallen x Lelouch for everything they have to offer personnaly.

Well, if that’s because R2 was rushed then we can use this as a way to explain a lot of things :p
I think that’s only because CC’s devellopment in R2, was rushed.

[incorrupts]

Oh and, "Lelouch and Suzaku can do anything together" is not "the power ranger dream world", just the Code Geass world. I believe they made it quite clear several times in the series, including, you know, Zero Requiem itself.


To be fair as unrealistic as it sounds {but what i am talking about, this is anime} that is true. Lelouch said exactly this line several times throughout the series. Of course he did not mean only the two of them but you get the idea.
Lulu-genius-mind + Suzaku-x-man-reflexes > everyone.
Now, what does this have to do in the Romance Thread? Or Suzaku/Lelouch is on the romantic table as well and i did not notice lately?

[Eliarine]

Eliarine : No. Suzaku and Lelouch can do everything is a concept. If you watch the serie you will see that this concept implies a lot of people around them, just like in Zero requiem; because they are together they can do everything, but this doesn’t means that they have to be all alone

Never said that. Just that Lelouch, again, involved as little close friends as possible, and he felt that those he had around him were enough. And he was right.

Now about the close friends things, there is some advancement. You don't seem to consider anymore Kallen as a friend of Rivalz's level.

JESUS CHRIST. I never said Kallen was a friend of Rivalz's level, stop putting words in my mouth. You can love someone deeply without loving them romantically, and this is not the first time I point out that Kallen was a very, very close friend of Lelouch's.

Now, if LelouchxSuzaku isn't canon either, then I guess that means Lelouch likes Suzaku as he likes Rivalz too? And them being "friends in the truest sense of the word" in the end is nonsense too, since he didn't want to get into his pants?

[incorrupts]

Why are we arguing about Kallen-out of the ZR plan?
Why would Lulu include her on a plan, that has like, let's see :::
1 -- high chance of her being killed by an opponent {yeah right, like would Kallen lose to anyone other than Suzaku but still, putting it there}
2 -- BK that were her steady ground, would turn against her {let's face it, Kallen would follow Lulu}
3 -- i think it was made clear that after Shirley's death Lelouch, would not afford to lose someone else important to him, cause of the Geass involvement or generally, being involved with him.

Now, conclusion: His line to her on epi 19. He wanted for her to live on. Whether this crosses the only-friends borders, it is up to one's POV.
But i think it is quite cleat that he did not involve her, NOT because he did not need her or anything, but because he wanted to make sure that she would be safe in the world he wanted to create. Re-create, actually.

[Levy]

Unlike Nina, that is the only one able to work out the anti- freija, Karen is nothing strictly necessary. A treat, but nothing he can't do without.
..seriously, I don't think she would have allowed Lelouch to brought war back to Japan or blew Mount Fuji up because her people and her nation were too much important for her. Maybe more important than him and her love for him also knowing all the truth, and I respect a lot her for that.

Unlike Suzaku, that by that time was under the sense of guilt for the FREJA and feels selfless enough to throw everything, moreover his morals, for the benefit of the plan, Karen has a lot of things left. She would simply not have fits into the logic of ZR.



Ah, Frost, Rivalz happened to be there when Lloyd went to get Nina, that was not Lelouch's doing. He correctly imagined that he was there but it's different to make use of someone deliberately.

[Nogitsune]

Nogitsune : (Hmm I don’t like your Lelouch asexual concept, But I like your posts :p)

Thanks, I try. xD

If Lelouch was asexual, kiss a girl and a guy shouldn’t make any difference.

Ah, not really, but I'd really have to go into the asexual stuff to explain what I mean.
But I already mentioned once or twice that there are quite a few asexual who enjoy kissing, and there are many asexuals with a "romantic" orientation.
And then there's always the matter of the human psyche.
I don't think Lelouch ever considered being gay or bisexual. Therefore, it's only natural for him to turn to a girl for comfort - and not to a boy.

Moreover, we are talking about Rolo; Lelouch was feeling guilty about Kallen, but I don’t think that use Rolo, would have been this much hard to him.

Then again, he still hated Rolo at that point, and I don't think Lelouch would kiss someone he hates even under those circumstances (not after being brought back to reality by Kallen's slap already, at least).
He also thought of Rolo as his little brother for one whole year. And contrary to what some people like to imply, I don't think Lelouch really was the incest type. xD
Sure, he knew rationally that Rolo wasn't his brother. Still, the human psyche is a strange and highly annyoing thing.

About teasing…no. CC and Lelouch didn’t had any teasing about sexual things between them

Well, C.C. really seemed to have fun giving Nunally the wrong impression in S1. xD

Between Lelouch and Kallen, it’s all different, and from Lelouch’s part.

I agree with the "from Lelouch's part thing", but that still doesn't prove anything to me.
I enjoy teasing certain people more than others, too, but that doesn't mean I want to jump their bones. xD

I would have said those didn’t had meaning, if finally, Lelouch hadn’t try to seek comfort from Kallen.
The fact that she is the only one he teased about that and the one from who he wanted comfort doesn’t seems like a surprise, those things are obviously tied and finally everything make sense by then.

I won't deny that that's one possible interpretation.

About platonic relationship, it depends; If we are talking about love in a romantic way, let’s be realist, the love can’t be only platonic (except if you are a dumb like Hideki from Chobits…-_-’)there is forcefully a moment where physical needs will came into the place.

Uhm... I was talking about both platonic kinds of love, but I highly disagree with that.
Because that would mean that romantic asexuals can't really be in a relationship with someone, which is simply not true.
There are even asexuals who are happily married to sexuals. Of course, those sexuals usually don't have a very high sex-drive, either, but still.

Now, the only girl Lelouch shown any physical interest was Kallen so …

I'll give you that, but considering the circumstances, that really doesn't mean anything to me.

you can prefer platonic of course, and if thats the case, you have a lot of opportunity in the show.

*nods her head*
I even prefer non-romantic platonic relationships, which means I have more than one canon relationship to fangirl over. xD
*hugs Lelouch and Suzaku and quietly giggles to herself*

I love Kallen x Lelouch for everything they have to offer personnaly.

See, we're all happy. xD

Well, if that’s because R2 was rushed then we can use this as a way to explain a lot of things :p
I think that’s only because CC’s devellopment in R2, was rushed.

*nods her head*
R2 is evil (but still awesome).


Oh, and Eliarine and Levy?
I love you both! xD
In a purely platonic, non-romantic way, but very, very much. xD
We are accomplices! Errr... wait, I really should stop stealing lines from Code Geass.

[bladeofdarkness]

you keep forgeting one thing
the main part of ZERO-R wasnt about lelouch's death
that was the last part
the first part ment having to defeat shnizel at any cost becouse other wise he'll set his own CB plan in motion
in that first stage the fate of the entire world rested on lelouch winning
failure was not an option what so ever

the fact that he didnt want to involve kallen is understandble since we know that her joining him would have made her share the blame for his actions
but he didnt even try to ask her to sit this one out ("trust me, its for the best")
he didnt give her any reason to believe that she should trust him and then set in motion the events that would insure that she would oppose him
he not only keeps her out of the plan but doesnt even ask her to stay out of the fight
he wants her to oppose him and to be seen as having nothing to do with him (had she kept out out of the fight, she would have been viewed as a traitor for not fighting on the OOBK side)

and under those conditions (with the fate of the world at stake) that is a pretty big thing
he litteraly make his job much harder and riskier then it would be if he just asked her to stay out and he does this knowing that
he may not have done ZERO-R for kallens sake but he made it extra hard to pull off
and that he did do for her sake

[fainessae]

Actually, one could argue that Lelouch really did need Karen--but he needed her to be against rather than for him.

Who else could take out Suzaku to make the "death" happen?

I'd say Karen was very vital to the plan--but she was vital in a different way than the others, a way that required her to be against the plan. There was no way, besides all the other reasons, that Lelouch was going to allow her to be in on the plan--he needed that righteous strength of hers.

But that might be reading too much into things. ;D

[incorrupts]

Actually, one could argue that Lelouch really did need Karen--but he needed her to be against rather than for him.

Who else could take out Suzaku to make the "death" happen?

I'd say Karen was very vital to the plan--but she was vital in a different way than the others, a way that required her to be against the plan. There was no way, besides all the other reasons, that Lelouch was going to allow her to be in on the plan--he needed that righteous strength of hers.

But that might be reading too much into things. ;D

Hmm, could be true. Still, the whole Suzaku lost on purpose stinks a little bit. I say it was luck, not really planning, it just fit more Lulu's plans.
I still stand on the "things you treasure, most of the times you keep them away." And Lulu's ZR, was one a million and really dangerous for everyone involved in it. Why have Kallen in the middle of the battlefield with high chances of some serious shit happening to her?
Hate is safer than love afterall.

[bladeofdarkness]

Actually, one could argue that Lelouch really did need Karen--but he needed her to be against rather than for him.

Who else could take out Suzaku to make the "death" happen?

I'd say Karen was very vital to the plan--but she was vital in a different way than the others, a way that required her to be against the plan. There was no way, besides all the other reasons, that Lelouch was going to allow her to be in on the plan--he needed that righteous strength of hers.

But that might be reading too much into things. ;D

ruled out
suzaku tries his best to beat her (and states that he just cant)
they also reach the damocles where she is not likely to be able to follow (becosue of the shield)
and finally there is the look on suzaku's face in ep 24 when she tells him its time to settle things
you could claim that the look on his face can be taken to say alot of things
keikaku doori isnt one of them

[Nogitsune]

@fainessae:
I like your interpretation, even though it's really hard to say to what extend Lelouch predicted the outcome of this battle.
Still, I'm convinced he wouldn't have risked both Zero Requiem and his best friend's life as recklessly as some people make it sound.

However, I also agree that Lelouch's strong feelings for Kallen were at least one reason for his decision.
Only that "strong feelings" don't equal "romantic love" for me.

[Eliarine]

Hmm, could be true. Still, the whole Suzaku lost on purpose stinks a little bit. I say it was luck, not really planning, it just fit more Lulu's plans.

I hope this doesn't turn into yet another "who's the best pilot in CG" argument but like I said in the Suzaku thread, the way I see it, the fight between Kallen and Suzaku could have been part of the plan; but it didn't go as "easily", let's say, as Lelouch probably planned it. Lelouch couldn't know where or when Kallen would turn up, but he probably counted on her to confront Suzaku at some point, and this is where Suzaku would need to try and fake his death as convincingly as possible. However, like some people have already pointed out, the fight turned out to be quite even, and I think Lelouch and Suzaku didn't think Kallen would be that strong in the end.

[incorrupts]

I say this was a plothole on purpose. Like, Suzaku vs Kallen was for real, Kallen did win in the end. It was more for "WAH, SUZU GRAVESTONE!!1". I don't think it was planned so Lancelot would lose on purpose, Lulu had already "won" and was doing his mappie-blue-thingie "World, Obey Me."
Who knew shit at that moment about Guren vs Lancelot and Suzu dying? It was more for the "eeep" purposes.

We're getting way of topic here, so, CCxL on the poll keeps on getting votes huh?

ETA: Eliarine, i never said that. I personally, consider both of them a hell of pilots, meaning if they fight a lot of times, they both get their share amount of victories. I believe in the last battle it was Kallen's "turn" to win.

[Levy]

Blade, I have to tell you honestly, I don't get the crucial difference between your last post on Karen's involvement in Zero Requiem or what me, Eliarine, Loli, and others, everyone making her personal distinction, have said already.

Ah, and it's Shirley. Please, type it correctly, I have a 'mispelled names' allergy that drives me illogically insane.

@fainessae: That's not a bad reasoning, but i think it's too much complicate to foreshadow something like the outcome of a duel in such a mess of a battle, also for Lelouch.
Still, the main reason for him to keep her away is what sky said in her last post, altought I disagree that she would have followed Lelouch for sure.

About the whole ZR.. I think Cécile stayed behind not only because of Suzaku and because she's needed, but also because she won't ever leave Lloyd's side, she just loves him that much. I'm a sick fangirl like this.

[Nogitsune]

I hope this doesn't turn into yet another "who's the best pilot in CG" argument but like I said in the Suzaku thread, the way I see it, the fight between Kallen and Suzaku could have been part of the plan; but it didn't go as "easily", let's say, as Lelouch probably planned it. Lelouch couldn't know where or when Kallen would turn up, but he probably counted on her to confront Suzaku at some point, and this is where Suzaku would need to try and fake his death as convincingly as possible. However, like some people have already pointed out, the fight turned out to be quite even, and I think Lelouch and Suzaku didn't think Kallen would be that strong in the end.

*nods her head to that*
Makes sense to me.

[incorrupts]

Still, the main reason for him to keep her away is what sky said in her last post, altought I disagree that she would have followed Lelouch for sure.


I really think that Kallen would follow him, he was ready to die with him, so following is a step back in terms of importance. But yeah, it is one of the "ifs" as well.