View Full Version : Tonari no 801-chan
Tonari no 801-chan has been announced a little while ago for a 2009 broadcast, but today MOON PHASE came out with a report (http://d.hatena.ne.jp/moonphase/20080816#p3) from TBS Anime Festa that Kyoto Animation of the Suzumiya Haruhi fame will be in charge of animation production.
Tonari no 801-chan was originally a 4-koma online blog manga, but then it got printed manga and "shoujo" re-imaginations, and also a live-action drama.
What can I say? Long live fujoshi? :D
EDIT: NOTE: It has since been reported that this show's production has been cancelled.
LOL... being a self-admitting KyoAni fan, even I have to admit I can't imagine what path this anime can take! :p
Looking forward to this - I see zany fun abound.
bahamut zero
2008-08-16, 12:54
Is this a new way of working for KyoAni?
Start with serious series/game adaption, then 4koma, then serious again, then 4koma? x___x
Finally KyoAni does something I'm excited about watching.
ZODDGUTS
2008-08-16, 13:15
Hopefully this is good didn't care much for Lucky Star it was decent though.
DJ_RockmanX
2008-08-16, 13:21
Is KyoAni done rickrolling us Haruhi fans yet? :rolleyes:
Though I'll probably end up watching this anyway. :p
musume_no_hoshi
2008-08-16, 17:32
The plot/idea sounds interesting, fujoshi FTW~
So KyoAni this is time is adapting the shoujo story or are they just going to animate the 4 koma? Probally have a slight->heavy feel of Lucky Star (depend what the animators decided to do)with romance in it. Ah...how perfect would it be.
I want Haruhi to be out before this, but what ever KyoAni feeds me, I'll eat it.
http://www.ohzora.co.jp/sp/801/top/
Sorry Haruhi fans once again, Yaoi-chan will be making their debut on TV screens in 2009. :p
I'll watch this, but I was hoping for more Haruhi, Full Metal Panic, or Key anime to be truthful
There's always that possibility of different production lines for simultaneous projects. However, I don't see any particular reason why they would want to produce more Haruhi anime anytime soon. As far as we know, the dust from the first season hasn't settled down yet. Let's also note that while there's a good chance that 801-chan will air in January, they still haven't announced a more definite time frame other than year 2009.
Kaioshin Sama
2008-08-17, 14:01
Kyoani doing a story about Otaku's and Otaku fetishes? This all sounds rather familiar......:eyebrow:
There's always that possibility of different production lines for simultaneous projects.
Production might not yet be at the level where they can air two series in a single season, but it's pretty obvious that they've increased the scale of simultaneous production to ride on their success.
KyoAni isn't just going to sit back and settle for one development at a time. There's too much money to be made.
Kyoani doing a story about Otaku's and Otaku fetishes? This all sounds rather familiar......:eyebrow:
The huge difference is that this story inherently has much more female appeal (not that Lucky Star doesn't, but no one can argue that it isn't aimed squarely at the guy crowd). In fact, the reason this shocks me is that it's the first KyoAni production I can think of that's anywhere even remotely close to being more female-oriented. In that sense, it's a pretty unexpected move from them IMO, but one that I welcome.
Li Jianliang
2008-08-17, 14:54
Ugh. The next thing you know, KyoAni has thrown another funny dance into the OP/ED of the series, and a new round of self-made videos of nerds dancing will appear on the internet.
Kaioshin Sama
2008-08-17, 15:25
Ugh. The next thing you know, KyoAni has thrown another funny dance into the OP/ED of the series, and a new round of self-made videos of nerds dancing will appear on the internet.
Oh come on, you totally know there's no need to even speculate. The dance opening is as much a part of the formula as anything. It would just be plain wrong not to have one at this point. None of the Japanese fans are going to let them get away with not having one now. :p All I can ponder is if it will at least be musically listenable to my ears this time around. Hare Hare Yukai was tolerable, but Motteke Sailor Fuku.....I just can't listen to that song at all anymore. It literally hurts my ears.
Me though? I'm just waiting for the part where we find out which characters Aya Hirano, Chihara Minori and Sugita Tomokazu are going to be playing. I peg Aya for the main character because.......yeah, Sugita Tomokazu as the boyfriend and Chihara Minori as either a quiet girl cashier at a doujin dealership or one of the main characters best friends. I'm locking in that call by the way. Final Answer.
Seriously, like I can't wait to know now.....:uhoh:
@Magus IX: While it is true that Yaoi is seen as a primarily female otaku domain, I'm pretty sure they'll throw in some stuff that will appeal to the male otaku as well. I can't say what, but I'm pretty sure that the main character will be moe to the nth degree (I mean it's a Kyoto Animation series after all) and she will probably have an assortment of equally moe girlfriends she hangs out with as well. I can see them making it work for both crowds rather easily actually.
I'm pretty sure that the main character will be moe to the nth degree (I mean it's a Kyoto Animation series after all) and she will probably have an assortment of equally moe girlfriends she hangs out with as well.
God, I hope not.
It's not that I take issue with appeal to both sides of the equation--I'm sure 801-chan will be as cute as a button--but making this into yet another "fetishism" of fujoshi would leave a really bad taste in my mouth. It seems like whenever fujoshi are addressed in anime, the overwhelming response is to retool them to fit a male perspective. (This is part of the reason I loved Ogiue from Genshiken so much, because she was a character in her own right and the "moe" you felt from her was incidental to her larger purpose and arc)
Plus, skimming over the blog that started this phenomenon, what you're saying doesn't seem to be in keeping with the feel of the series. If there is anything that's in keeping with both KyoAni and 801-chan, its the fact that this will most likely be a "hardcore otaku" show, and less a "moe-moe show"--not that the two are mutually exclusive.
Well Kaioshin-sama may be right by reading this (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2008-08-17/haruhi-kyoto-animation-to-produce-tonari-no-801-chan). The chick looks moe to me. Her monster side even looks moe. :heh:
I doubt that this will be hardcore otaku with nothing for the guys because it's got to sell over in R1 too by a distributor other than Media Blasters.
Hardcore otaku doesn't mean nothing for the guys (after all, the narrator is the lady's otaku boyfriend)... but I agree, the Genshiken comparison is much more valid IMO than the Lucky Star comparison.
Well it has to become Lucky Star to sell over in R1 and for KyoAni to make a decent profit off it.
Kaioshin Sama
2008-08-17, 16:16
Well Kaioshin-sama may be right by reading this (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2008-08-17/haruhi-kyoto-animation-to-produce-tonari-no-801-chan). The chick looks moe to me. Her monster side even looks moe. :heh:
I doubt that this will be hardcore otaku with nothing for the guys because it's got to sell over in R1 too by a distributor other than Media Blasters.
It kind reminds me of Gizmo from Gremlins. :confused:
Ahaahaha, I'm reading the 4koma right now. All my fears are put to rest.
801 is adorable, and perhaps moe depending on your taste, but a fujoshi through and through. The "for guys" part obviously comes in through her BF's look into the situation from the perspective of an outsider. In that respect it's really enjoyable because I can sympathize with both the characters for different reasons.
Don't expect Lucky Star. They're lightyears apart.
Oh come on, you totally know there's no need to even speculate. The dance opening is as much a part of the formula as anything. It would just be plain wrong not to have one at this point. None of the Japanese fans are going to let them get away with not having one now. :p To entertain this line of thought a bit further, it would be totally awesome if they made fujoshi dance the wotagei to a character song by Ono Daisuke. The OADs and Romansus, skirt flipping and sweat dropping, and the kyaa~s... Pure gold. :DIt's not that I take issue with appeal to both sides of the equation--I'm sure 801-chan will be as cute as a button--but making this into yet another "fetishism" of fujoshi would leave a really bad taste in my mouth. It seems like whenever fujoshi are addressed in anime, the overwhelming response is to retool them to fit a male perspective.What's so wrong with that? :p If anything, such a move might persuade more otaku to free themselves from their 2D delusions, to go out and find themselves fujoshi girlfriends. It's truly a brilliant plan to take over conservative Japan with the rise of the wota family!
Then again, freeing otaku from their 2D delusions would be bad for business.
Ahaahaha, I'm reading the 4koma right now. All my fears are put to rest.
801 is adorable, and perhaps moe depending on your taste, but a fujoshi through and through. The "for guys" part obviously comes in through her BF's look into the situation from the perspective of an outsider. In that respect it's really enjoyable because I can sympathize with both the characters for different reasons.
Don't expect Lucky Star. They're lightyears apart.
Ah but it has to be to sell in R1 (You know, that other primary market). To label something as "shoujo" in R1 is sealing its coffin. Dooming it not to sell. Decreasing KyoAni's profits. Ensuring that no distributor will touch it with a 10 foot pole. :heh:
For KyoAni to be involved with a "fujoshi" title means that something is going to be tweaked so that they can sell it comfortably in R1 with dubs.
Uh, it's worth noting that the likes of AIR and Kanon are just as bad off in the R1 market as shoujo. 801-chan is hugely popular in Japan--I strongly doubt the R1 market is comparatively that important to the KyoAni or their backers, especially considering how it's all but collapsed.
R1 is important. R1 backers have helped Japanese studios in the past and have to bid on titles before they are completed in R2. If there are no bids, then there is no money for those studios.
Shoujo in R1 is worse than Air and Kanon which isn't shoujo. Just ask the fans of Full Moon where's their DVDs or Honey and Clover if they expect to see it released. Shoujo doesn't sell here.
I'm pretty sure that KyoAni is aiming higher than Media Blasters as the distributor. 'Cuz if it ain't mainstream that's who is going to get it. It will be subbed only and have very pitiful sales here.
I'd be surprised if KyoAni didn't pitch the show toward a large male audience. We aren't talking about a small studio that caters to tiny audiences (that don't buy DVDs for the most part......the anime DVD market is male driven), but rather a hot company that's groping around for the next market phenomenon. Even if the material isn't retooled so much, the way it's presented (i.e. moe appeal with regard to the protagonist) and promoted might well be tailored for the loyal KyoAni fanbase.
They turned Lucky Star into something big, and I bet they have similar plans for 801-chan.
You guys aren't getting it. From what I'm reading, 801-chan already has massive appeal to both audiences, and that's in its realistic depictions of a boyfriend interacting with his fujoshi girlfriend. It's appealing and makes me laugh because the humor is otaku-centric and both the characters are identifiable as people.
I think it's pretty sad that the only way you guys seem to be able to conceive as "appeal" is to turn it into Lucky Star. There is no need to flatten 801 into some sort of moe stereotype to pander to the audience--she's not Nogizaka Haruka and I hope she never will be. For that matter, it's not a BL series, so all this talk about "MediaBlasters" and "sub only" is pointless at this date.
If they wanted to animate a series about a "moe" fujoshi and her "moe" friends, then they probably wouldn't have chosen this series to adapt. This talk is like me claiming they're going to add BL into the next Key anime because fujoshi are a growing segment of the buying populace. in short, completely unfounded and ego-centric.
I'm sure R1 is important for most studios. But is KyoAni one to really be affected by the oversea sales, when any of their series is bound to sell 30k+ per DVD in Japan? I'd tend to think the future bids on their series aren't vital to them.
Why are some people thinking KyoAni will be trying to turn the series into something moe? Because they've always done so in their past series? Well, the moe factor was in the original works to begin with. Except in Full Metal Panic, where I don't think anyone was changed from the original to make the series any more moe.
Seriously, it's their first time doing this kind of genre, let's not assume they're going to butcher the original (where moe is indeed inexistant) to make this appeal for everyone. I don't even think they have to go down the moe route to sell anyway, what with the well-established popularity of the manga and all.
You guys aren't getting it. From what I'm reading, 801-chan already has massive appeal to both audiences...
Exactly. I remember the first time I read about 801-chan was a while ago, when a couple of English anime news sites posted items about how incredibly well the print version was selling. Just because people here haven't necessarily heard of it doesn't mean KyoAni is swooping in to rescue it from obscurity. :heh:
801-chan doesn't need to be changed in either Japan or R1 to be a success. In Japan it's ALREADY extremely popular and a staple name in the otaku presence (801chan creeps up everywhere sort of like how the English otaku community uses "pedobear" in similar situations), so they're just going to seal it as an otaku icon.
And look at what's popular among other R1 region anime fans: series about real-life everyday otaku are a hit. A lot of the most popular original English published manga (such as DramaCon and Aoi House -- correct me if I'm wrong, though, since I have only heard summaries of them and have not read them) is about the life of otaku and full of otaku jokes but are more about the average joe and his girlfriend instead of the more over-the-top otaku reference joke shows like Gintama and Zetsubou Sensei (which are funny, but don't have the added slice of life effect of being based on reality). The only problem is to bridge the gap so that the jokes will make sense because the original 801chan manga barely makes sense to even Japanese otaku -- the publication of it comes with a bunch of side notes for every single strip to explain just what the heck 801chan is talking about.
And it really will be nice if it makes otaku on both sides of the gender gap more open to going out and looking for an otaku/fujoshi girlfriend or boyfriend. It seems that the popularity of 801chan has sparked a bunch of clone manga, novels, and books about dating fujoshi and how to handle a fujoshi girlfriend. Ahh, romance..
Leave it to Kyoani to make fujoshi the new moe.
Also, this is the last chance for them to redeem themself. Eyes that take up 2/3 of the face is not cute.
And look at what's popular among other R1 region anime fans: series about real-life everyday otaku are a hit. A lot of the most popular original English published manga (such as DramaCon and Aoi House -- correct me if I'm wrong, though, since I have only heard summaries of them and have not read them) is about the life of otaku and full of otaku jokes but are more about the average joe and his girlfriend instead of the more over-the-top otaku reference joke shows like Gintama and Zetsubou Sensei (which are funny, but don't have the added slice of life effect of being based on reality). The only problem is to bridge the gap so that the jokes will make sense because the original 801chan manga barely makes sense to even Japanese otaku -- the publication of it comes with a bunch of side notes for every single strip to explain just what the heck 801chan is talking about.
..
Actually they are not considered to be top 10 manga. Here's the top 10 (http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/12407.html) anime and manga. Notice while shoujo manga is in the top 10, the corresponding anime isn't. Different set of buyers probably. The adage goes that "Girls don't buy DVDs.".
Besides the most recent "otaku" title. Welcome to NHK, wasn't doing too well either in R1. Haruhi IIRC also didn't meet expectations. Also, the otaku centric manga (Gintama) is not a top 10 title either. Goodbye Mr. Despair (anime) hasn't even been licensed for R1 yet either after 2 seasons have been completed.
KyoAni's got to mainstream this one.
Seriously, where are you getting this from? Did they "mainstream" Clannad for R1? No! It remains unlicensed, and they're currently laughing all the way to the bank (as usual, heh). Since when has KyoAni *ever* depended on R1 support?
They didn't decide to make Haruhi because it seemed like it'd be a worldwide hit--they made it because the light novels were already quite popular. By all accounts, everyone involved was surprised (pleased, of course, but still very much surprised) when it hit a chord with foreign fans as well. But whether or not it sold like hotcakes or flopped or whatever else in the US remains irrelevant to its immense success in Japan.
801-chan is plenty capable of selling loads of DVDs in Japan as it stands, which is what matters more than ever now that the R1 market has been reduced to, like, 3 regular players. If the shoujo thing is what you're stuck on, maybe it needs to be reiterated that 801-chan isn't shoujo. Heck, it wasn't even published in an anthology magazine to start with, so those labels don't apply here.
Even the example of Zetsubou Sensei works against rather than for your argument. If R1 support is so important, why did it get greenlit for a second season despite being unlicensed? Companies don't make more of shows they're losing money on.
Actually they are not considered to be top 10 manga. Here's the top 10 (http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/12407.html) anime and manga. Notice while shoujo manga is in the top 10, the corresponding anime isn't. Different set of buyers probably. The adage goes that "Girls don't buy DVDs.".
Besides the most recent "otaku" title. Welcome to NHK, wasn't doing too well either in R1. Haruhi IIRC also didn't meet expectations. Also, the otaku centric manga (Gintama) is not a top 10 title either. Goodbye Mr. Despair (anime) hasn't even been licensed for R1 yet either after 2 seasons have been completed.
KyoAni's got to mainstream this one.
Comparing anything to shonen jump hits like DBZ and Naruto won't work (even Haruhi, with her worldwide recognition, isn't on that list). World markets seem to favor anime heavy in action and stuff blowing up, making it extremely different from Japan's otaku scene. And the original English manga I mentioned like DramaCon are likely nowhere near bestsellers, but even so I have noticed a trend in that a lot of fans like to write stories about the lives of everyday otaku and they even see publication, which is enough. The subject matter interests people -- it's just that the original english manga that show this subject matter is (like almost all OEL manga) lacking in skill.
And if that list is your definition of mainstream, that means that KyoAni, one of the world's most famous and praised animation studios, has never been popular.
Being mainstream/making a lot of money does not necessarily mean that something is good, but it certainly helps the company producing it.
And as Magus IX said, R1 appeal usually isn't much of a factor in this kind of stuff. If a manga is popular, animate it. Japanese and American tastes in anime are so different that a lot of the bestselling "mainstream" R1 releases are unheard of in Japan, and vice-versa. There are few "Chibi Vampire" and "Witchblade" fans in Japan, while famous manga like 801chan and the often chart-topping sports series like Slam Dunk, Touch, and Prince of Tennis are not nearly as successful in the R1 region.
Kaioshin Sama
2008-08-18, 00:22
Seriously, where are you getting this from? Did they "mainstream" Clannad for R1? No! It remains unlicensed, and they're currently laughing all the way to the bank (as usual, heh). Since when has KyoAni *ever* depended on R1 support?
They didn't decide to make Haruhi because it seemed like it'd be a worldwide hit--they made it because the light novels were already quite popular. By all accounts, everyone involved was surprised (pleased, of course, but still very much surprised) when it hit a chord with foreign fans as well. But whether or not it sold like hotcakes or flopped or whatever else in the US remains irrelevant to its immense success in Japan.
801-chan is plenty capable of selling loads of DVDs in Japan as it stands, which is what matters more than ever now that the R1 market has been reduced to, like, 3 regular players. If the shoujo thing is what you're stuck on, maybe it needs to be reiterated that 801-chan isn't shoujo. Heck, it wasn't even published in an anthology magazine to start with, so those labels don't apply here.
Even the example of Zetsubou Sensei works against rather than for your argument. If R1 support is so important, why did it get greenlit for a second season despite being unlicensed? Companies don't make more of shows they're losing money on.
The way I see it, the properties themselves are more popular in Japan while the company is more popular abroad. They didn't market Lucky Star as from the "the people that brought you Haruhi" for nothing. The thing is though that the companies name being associated with this or that doesn't necessarily make them money when you consider that many companies are popular abroad and have anime with widespread foreign appeal to boot. Gainax, Production I.G and Sunrise anybody? No, very few anime companies really consider the foreign market when making anime. I'm thinking the only one that might is Bandai Visual, and that's only because they are part of a massive conglomerate with loads of money to spare and the power to market their products all over the world and research what works in what region at an affordable expense.
I'm curious, did Lucky Star R1's sell all that well on the market? Did Haruhi DVD's for that matter?
Exactly. I remember the first time I read about 801-chan was a while ago, when a couple of English anime news sites posted items about how incredibly well the print version was selling. Just because people here haven't necessarily heard of it doesn't mean KyoAni is swooping in to rescue it from obscurity. :heh:It's pretty much a mainstream thing already. Let's not forget it got a home video live-action movie release. If anything, Kyoto Animation is going to push the anime property back into obscure. That being said, wwwwwww, here's the intro to the live-action.
kFoPRK1_V-o
darkchibi07
2008-08-18, 03:49
Man, is it just me or there's has been a huge push of anime series being created that are aimed more towards female audiences lately?
Ah, apparently a 2nd drama CD is coming out in October. Since they are keeping the same cast as the first drama CD even after an anime announcement, the seiyuu for the TV anime will likely be the same:
Ueda Kana as 801-chan and Ono Daisuke as Chibe-kun.
What's so wrong with [retooling fujoshi to fit a male perspective]?
One word: boooooring.
Yes, I admit it, I enjoyed Lucky Star for what it was. And for all I bitch and moan about interesting female characters getting dumbed down as moe fanservice, my anime-watching habits are probably far more stereotypically male than I care to admit. But that doesn't mean I want to be fed the same cake all the time, even if it is delicious.
Will KyoAni apply Teh Formula to 801-chan? I don't know. Would they sell more R1s if they applied Teh Formula to 801-chan? Again, I don't know. But should they apply Teh Formula to 801-chan? No! No! NO! What appeals to me about this story is its potential to be something different, a fujoshi-eye view into a world I only know about through its "fetishism" in anime (to borrow musouka's excellent description). To make it male-viewer-friendly would be to tragically miss the point and waste that potential - has it ever occurred to the Marketing Gods that a good female-oriented show might appeal to both genders?
For all it's trendy to hate KyoAni, they deserve credit where due. Did anyone expect the dancing animu craze before Haruhi? It's easy to yawn at how clichéd it seems now, but that's because they got it sufficiently right to make it clichéd. I'm sure they're smart enough to know exactly how typecast they appear; they're also smart enough to surprise us all again, should they choose. Maybe Teh Formula will prevail, but what's the point of being an anime fan if you can't cling to irrational hope?
EDIT: Ueda Kana as 801-chan
*faints with delight*
What was I just saying about hope?
Vallen Chaos Valiant
2008-08-18, 08:40
Don't underestimate the female audience market; if there is anything I learned from the shop I hang out, women can pay a lot of money for what they want.
So, has there been ANYTHING posted for the character designs? Anywhere that actually talks about the series rather than the producers? Not that speculating about KyoAni isn't fun in it's own right...
So, has there been ANYTHING posted for the character designs? Anywhere that actually talks about the series rather than the producers? Not that speculating about KyoAni isn't fun in it's own right...
The wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonari_no_801-chan) is fairly comprehensive--takes a look at both the regular and the shoujo adapatations.
The wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonari_no_801-chan) is fairly comprehensive--takes a look at both the regular and the shoujo adapatations.
Thanks! The Google search I did took me to a different wikipedia entry (the one for the mascot), and I was getting a little confused :D
Kaioshin Sama
2008-08-18, 19:41
Ah, apparently a 2nd drama CD is coming out in October. Since they are keeping the same cast as the first drama CD even after an anime announcement, the seiyuu for the TV anime will likely be the same:
Ueda Kana as 801-chan and Ono Daisuke as Chibe-kun.
I'm still holding out on a surprise upset Aya Hirano female lead replacement ala Lucky Star, though I think Daisuke Ono will stay since he's already a popular regular with Kyoani. Although I think Aya Hirano is now very unpopular in Japan so she might no longer be the draw she once was when they made the decision to change to the cast of Lucky Star from the Drama CD.
Official site now up. (http://www.tbs.co.jp/anime/801/)
That was fast.
Hmm...KyoAni plus an interesting premise plus a chance to get a look into a mind of a fangirl...
I think I may watch this one.
Official site now up. (http://www.tbs.co.jp/anime/801/)
That was fast.
Really. And maybe even the air date is not so distant.
The design seem good too, a good adaptation of the original... and, with the massive presence of female animators in Kyoto animation staff, I fear a real fujoshi madness for this one.
They probably needed to vent their frustration after all the teasing of Itsuki/Kyon and Tomoya/Sunohara. :p
j/k
Narf.
I'll take a wild bite on it. Let me guess, seen how everyone is talking about production and wikipedia's description of the plot just spins around characters, it's one of those show's about nothing and everything with no real plot hole for the watcher to cuddle in. Correct?
They probably needed to vent their frustration after all the teasing of Itsuki/Kyon...
That was my very first thought after the announcement :D
They probably needed to vent their frustration after all the teasing of Itsuki/Kyon and Tomoya/Sunohara. :p
j/k
Narf.
Don't forget we almost had a NagisaxRyou too... :p
Although I think Aya Hirano is now very unpopular in Japan
Why's this?
Odd. The official website just... disappeared.
I notice Moonphase has a post about this disappearance which sounds a bit pessimistic (if I did get the meaning right). Should we actually be a bit worried, or is this fact just to be ignored? It may be a meaningless technical error, for all I know.
Edit: This may indeed be a bit worrisome. Please head to Canned Dogs (http://zepy.momotato.com/2008/08/28/801-chan-anime-cancelled/) for a detailed article on the issue and the possibility of the series being cancelled...
The rest of my post is totally unrelated...
Although I think Aya Hirano is now very unpopular in Japan so she might no longer be the draw she once was when they made the decision to change to the cast of Lucky Star from the Drama CD.
It may be a trend to hate Hirano these days, particularly on 2ch and in certain English-speaking communities (and I can't say I've never done it either) - which is why we tend to feel her popularity has eroded. But I reckon she's maintained a nice fanbase nevertheless. Her album Riot Girl sold fairly well, and she keeps on getting important roles, such as her upcoming performance in White Album. The producers wouldn't have cast a very unpopular person to star with Nana Mizuki, I think.
In despair :(
I'd be worried, doesn't look like a stunt, especially if both sites removed references to the anime. I think negotiations broke down, or were suddenly cut.
Good, I wasn't excited about an anime adaptation of this type of manga.
Kyoto Animation should concentrate on animating bishoujo games, shounen (boy's) light novels, and male oriented moe 4-panel manga :P
darkchibi07
2008-08-28, 13:00
Good, I wasn't excited about an anime adaptation of this type of manga.
Kyoto Animation should concentrate on animating bishoujo games, shounen (boy's) light novels, and male oriented moe 4-panel manga :P
C'mon, would it be more awesome if they adapted a yuri manga or light novel?!! :D
C'mon, would it be more awesome if they adapted a yuri manga or light novel?!! :D
Ooh, Kyoto Animation doing a Yuri anime, I would be so excited :D
Here's hoping they are just trolling Haruhi fans, giving them a sense of hope. :P
Alohomora
2008-08-28, 13:33
C'mon, would it be more awesome if they adapted a yuri manga or light novel?!! :D
No?! :rolleyes:
Doh, this was the upcoming show that I've been looking forward to the most! And I was so happy to hear that KyoAni will be working on it ..and now that ...it isn't fair, really :(
Nothing has been said about the production being cancelled. It's best if we wait for an official word on the subject.
All traces are removed (presumably) as if it doesn't exist anymore and yet the production continues?
Canceled maybe not, but it's most likely not on schedule anyway.
Kyoto Animation should concentrate on animating bishoujo games, shounen (boy's) light novels, and male oriented moe 4-panel manga :P
You have my vote. :p
I don't want to see them become a jack of all trades. That's a one way street to crapiness.
They should stick to what they do best and go with that.
I don't want to see them become a jack of all trades. That's a one way street to crapiness.
They should stick to what they do best and go with that.
I don't understand this point of view. They should keep doing what they're best at? Then I suppose you are truly wishing for KyoAni to eventually die after they're done animating Little Busters in a few years, because there'll be about nothing left to do. :rolleyes:
People (including me) were delighted that the studio was making an effort to appeal to new audiences by trying their hands at something new, and certain others are just happy because their image of the studio won't be ruined. I feel that's fairly rude... especially when we haven't even seen a glimpse of what their adaptation of 801-chan could be like, which could even be enjoyable to you.
(If this posts sounds like I'm mad, blame it on the idea of the series being cancelled, even though nothing's official...)
They don't feel like moving forward as your post suggest.
To me they're just moving back and doing something different.
Would this series really be the next good thing?
I can't help feel the premise of the show is like a parody for past works.
(these are just my thoughts)
Kaioshin Sama
2008-08-28, 15:08
Skepticism glassed PUT ON! There we go. I would prefer to wait until Kyoani comes to answer to the public in an official statement, which by all rights should come later today, tomorrow or this week. While it's generally not good practice to announce a series only to cancel it this soon, there could be alternative reasons beyond their control.
Of course the major theory is probably that they cowed to Haruhi fans and decided that they need to get that show out quicker and 801-chan was just pushing it back, but it would be just that. A theory. I could come up with a theory that they might have done something to void the licence or that it's yet again one of their viral marketing campaigns but it would also just be a theory. So official announcement pending and we're waiting.....
By the way, count me in the group that wants to see Kyoani try something not Moe/Otaku related. Although I don't believe that Tonari no 801-chan could be considered branching off in another direction.
Actually I want more FMP, Planetarian, Lucky Star and Little Busters. And if they can talk Visual Arts/Key into a Kanon OVA with Ayu and Yuiichi getting married , you can count me in as one of the R2 LE buyers. :heh:
This wasn't exactly a sterling example of a title that was going to be a hit in R2 and R1. I don't fault them for cashing in their chips now instead of losing money later.
Oh well, we just have to wait and see what the official word is.
Ooh, Kyoto Animation doing a Yuri anime, I would be so excited :D
the idea itself is exciting. :D
Here's hoping they are just trolling Haruhi fans, giving them a sense of hope. :P
my impression as well. :heh:
Anyway, I wasn’t really looking forward to this show anytime soon, even though the premise was a welcomed surprise. The recent events are indeed suspicious, and the possibility that the show might be cancelled or delayed is there. If the issue is not somehow solved between the parties concerned, well, hopefully yaoi-chan will see the light again.
I hope the show will still pop up eventually. You can't just... un-announce a show this late into the game, can you? (with a studio, official website, and anime announcements wrapping copies of the manga...)
Or maybe the trouble is on KyoAni's side after all? At this point, I kind of want someone else to animate 801chan just so I won't have to hear KyoAni fans cry about Haruhi this and Haruhi that all day (even though more Haruhi has already been announced..! And even though the combination of 801chan and Chibe-kun's personality of weird-girl and stoic-confused-guy is similar to the Haruhi-Kyon combo, people don't seem to care because they hear the word "yaoi" and run screaming in the other direction). I dislike KyoAni fans just as much as the shows they've made up until now...
I was hoping KyoAni would broaden their horizons beyond the moe junk, but I guess maybe they're hopeless after all.
DJ_RockmanX
2008-08-29, 04:20
Nothing has been said about the production being cancelled. It's best if we wait for an official word on the subject.
Here you go: http://www.tbs.co.jp/anime/festa/#801c
From moetron: http://www.moetron.com/2008/08/29/tonari-no-801-chan-anime-officially-cancelled/
Well, this is certainly an interesting development, and i would certainly like to know the reasons behind the decision to cancel it. I can't say the immediate premise seemed all that interesting to me, but never the less i was looking towards KyoAni try their hand at something different in a weird way. Oh well ... if this means it increases my chances of seeing Little Busters animated sooner though, then i am not going to complain much :)
Well... this sure was something surprising...
FireChick
2008-08-29, 06:01
I guess KyoAni needs to focus on more Haruhi and Clannad now?
At least now I've got the excuse to put this up
http://i33.tinypic.com/1z35r0m.jpg
In despair, the author is :(
usagijen
2008-08-29, 11:42
Know what, I had this silly idea earlier... Thought of whether this "anime announcement - sudden cancellation" is all for the sake of publicity. Without any info given regarding why KyoAni decided this, people would most likely be intrigued and would check out the manga / drama of Tonari no 801-chan to see what it's all about (well that's exactly what happened to me at this time, lol).
DragoonKain3
2008-08-29, 20:28
I really really am sad. I watched the live action 801-chan over youtube, and despite it's craptacular subs (believe me, that's actually me being nice), I enjoyed it immensely. I would've absolutely loved to experience this in anime form, with proper subs and all.
And c'mon, really now, if you're going to have an otaku girlfriend, chances are she would be more like 801-chan rather than Haruka from the show that bears her name. As such, I find it more interesting just from that alone lol ;)
But hey, KyoAni before cancelled the second season of Haruhi (true, no one believed them because everybody thought it was a sorts of viral marketiing). So if it can happen to Haruhi, might have a small chance of happening to 801-chan. Hopefully...
I really really am sad. I watched the live action 801-chan over youtube, and despite it's craptacular subs (believe me, that's actually me being nice), I enjoyed it immensely. I would've absolutely loved to experience this in anime form, with proper subs and all.
Indeed you are very nice :D
Ooookkey this probably means I've just to give up on Kyoto Animation or be doomed to watch Clannad and such for the rest of my life. Let's wait and see, either way I'm not happy at all (maybe a different broadcaster will get the project, off course if TBS wasn't the producer).
Indeed you are very nice :D
Ooookkey this probably means I've just to give up on Kyoto Animation or be doomed to watch Clannad and such for the rest of my life. Let's wait and see, either way I'm not happy at all (maybe a different broadcaster will get the project, off course if TBS wasn't the producer).
There are worse things to be "doomed" to doing. Kanon, Air, Clannad, FMP, Haruhi, Lucky Star seems to be pretty decent "punishment" to me. Add in Planetarian and Little Busters! and you're practically at a resort. :heh:
Resort? More like an haunted house. Fmp, well is still ad unfinished project with not guarantees of a sequel not to mention a full adaptation of the remaining novels. And as much as I like haruhi I just can't understand hoe Kadokawa is handling the project (nor I'm too happy of how the novel is developing, but the second season at least should be fine). Not all people are willing to swallow only visual novel adaptation and similar (not that I didn't tried, but I'm not good those delusional settings) that's why I simply have to give up on this silly hope of me to see Kyoto Animation work on something different (different, not necessarily better, Tonari no 801-cha was a small step).
^ You know, i am pretty much fond of all KyoAni works up to now, but i would argue that FMP and Haruhi has much more "delusional setting" compared to things like Air, Clannad or Kanon. ;)
All that really is is an empty statement that sounds good when you want to criticize something, because on the surface it looks passable without the need for immediate elaboration, but doesn't actually say anything in the end, other than stating one's preference. All the titles contain elements which are "impossible" to meet in real world, so it isn't like any of the shows aim for "realism" in the first place with their setting. Its the story they weave with their settings; the emotions and appreciation said stories can evoke that matter in the end. Of course everyone has different things they enjoy, and that is fine and how it should be, seeing we are all different individuals, but just because we don't enjoy some particular things does not mean they are bad by default. They are simply not for us, but that is not the fault of the story in question.
Sorry my bad, as you can guess my English is quit bad. For delusional setting I mean mostly the love/relationship-story aspect more than the background elements (and I know FMP and SH are not much better in those aspect) and which I usually find quite forced and dull for my taste. But that's how a visual novel work (I was not talking specifically about Kyoani).
They are simply not for us, but that is not the fault of the story in question
That was my point, really, that's why I wrote "different" and not "better".
WanderingKnight
2008-08-30, 14:50
Kyoto Animation should concentrate on animating bishoujo games, shounen (boy's) light novels, and male oriented moe 4-panel manga :P
I'd say that's pretty sad. Kyoani of all new studios does show tremendous potential, but I'm saddened by their inability to come up with something original (as in not adapted from anything, especially not yet another Key eroge).
I don't want to see them become a jack of all trades. That's a one way street to crapiness.
Yeah, Bones especially has done pretty crappy down this path :rolleyes:
Indeed. On the contrary, I think trying to maintain the status quo--whatever it happens to be--is in most cases what really leads to mediocrity.
Does the cancellation mean new Haruhi for fall '08-spring 09?
I'd say that's pretty sad. Kyoani of all new studios does show tremendous potential, but I'm saddened by their inability to come up with something original (as in not adapted from anything, especially not yet another Key eroge).
You might be interested in watching munto (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/anime.php?id=70) then. Still, I think people and companies should stick to what they are good at. In the classical music realm, there are multiple people who excelled at composing but were mediocre at performing even their own work (like Sergei Rachmaninoff), and other who are sucky composers but whose performances are beyond words. (say, Kissin, or Karajan). If KyoAni is best at adapting other people's works, then why not letting it?
Then you have once in a humanity lifetime geniuses like Franz Lizt and Mozart but that is a whole other matter.
WanderingKnight
2008-08-30, 21:57
You might be interested in watching munto then.
So, their only original works have been a couple of not very successful OVAs? How does that fare with the also rather new Bones, for example? They've pulled off a lot more series than Kyoani, many of them original works, and they're not much newer. Still, Bones seems to get too little recognition for what they do when compared to Kyoani, even when they've had fanboyish hits like Fullmetal Alchemist.
I'm not saying Kyoani is bad, though. I'm saying it's not as good as it could be.
Then you have once in a humanity lifetime geniuses like Franz Lizt and Mozart but that is a whole other matter.
Because many people seem somewhat convinced that Kyoani IS some sort of Lizt or Mozart.
Bones has had more original works. Xam'd is great (original work). Sword of the Stranger (original work) was great. Soul Eater (manga based) was great when I was watching it. But as Skyfall said, these titles may not be for everybody. In fact, they are aimed at R1 with appeal to R2 which may be why KyoAni gets more press. KyoAni's stuff is aimed at R2 with some appeal in R1.
Munto series is not completed yet. Its few fans need some resolution.
.
Because many people seem somewhat convinced that Kyoani IS some sort of Lizt or Mozart.
In reply,
So, their only original works have been a couple of not very successful OVAs?
There. (Not to mention that Mozart is considered in various circles the greatest genius humanity has ever produced, so it's a little difficult to duplicate his achievements :p)
In any case, I add myself to the crowd of people who pity the fact that a chance was lost at KyoAni trying their luck with something new. A shame, a shame really. Now they could take a peek at their backlog (key's works, haruhi second season, fmp, munto 3rd OVA) and pick something at random. That or picking a new series, abandon it in the way so they can leave even more fans in despair.
Sometimes I wonder if that isn't their plan all along. Anyone up for a kyoani conspirancy theories thread?
I doubt that in the grand scheme of things that people are going to be in despair for very long. Once they announce Haruhi or Planetarian, it will all wash away like what happens after a Spring shower.
Planetarian can be made to be dark and violent so it would be something new for them. With Chaos;HEAd coming out, it would be a nice title to also release soon.
Tell that to the Full Metal Panic and Munto fans.
FMP fans can buy the Blu-ray versions that are being released. So they won't have money for the DVDs. :heh:
Munto fans are used to waiting. It's our lot in life.
They just need to release Planetarian before Umineko steals the show.
Vallen Chaos Valiant
2008-09-02, 04:59
So, their only original works have been a couple of not very successful OVAs? How does that fare with the also rather new Bones, for example? They've pulled off a lot more series than Kyoani, many of them original works, and they're not much newer. Still, Bones seems to get too little recognition for what they do when compared to Kyoani, even when they've had fanboyish hits like Fullmetal Alchemist.
I'm not saying Kyoani is bad, though. I'm saying it's not as good as it could be.
Because many people seem somewhat convinced that Kyoani IS some sort of Lizt or Mozart.
KyoAni IS a genius Studio. It's just not your usual kind of genius.
There had been many good anime in the past. And most of them are NOT animated by KyoAni. So quality isn't what made them stood out.
And original content certainly isn't their forte.
What made KyoAni special, is that they have adapted source materials into anime far more successfully than anyone ever thought possible.
To be exact, they did more than just make good adaptations or accurate adaptations; they've made good AND accurate adaptations!
Why is it a big deal? Simple. For decades, there had been few attempts by any studio to adapt manga/novel/ren-ai games accurately. The assumption has been that it is too difficult to do, and/or that an exactly replica of the source material wouldn't be any good.
How often have we heard "The anime was alright I guess, but the manga was better"? It's said so often that it is hardly worth a mention; people treated it as something as unavoidable as death and taxes!
Yes, it is true KyoAni lacked pure originality; but that's not what KyoAni is after. Think of a manga/novel/game as a small ceramic statuette; It is a beautiful statuette, but it can fit in a shoe-box and could not be seen by many people.
KyoAni would be like a contractor who is paid to convert the statuette into a massive Colossus made of Bronze, 30 meters tall.
The average anime company would have made a rough approximation of the original statue, as they wouldn't bother to replicate every microscopic detail. They wouldn't even bother to talk to the original maker of the statuette. You would be lucky, sometimes, if the final product even remotely resembled the original.
While KyoAni would have the original artist visit the site of the construction weekly, inquire about the sketches the artist made back before creating the ceramic, and ask if the artist wanted any improvements made to his specifications.
That's what makes KyoAni different; they care about the fact that they are shaping something that artistically belonged to someone-else.
No one else does this; not any other studio. Elsewhere, it happens occasionally for random projects, but KyoAni is the only Studio to do this all the time.
WanderingKnight
2008-09-02, 06:05
Wait wait wait wait wait wait.
So Kyoani does 5 series, all adaptations, and suddenly it's a genius studio? As opposed to studios that have made dozens more adaptations (every major studio?), also in the same accurate manner? I believe the only one that gets a lot of flak for its poor adaptations is Gonzo.
And I'm not even mentioning that 1) Kanon had a different ending that mish-mashed everything together, 2) Lucky Star was completely bastardized by Haruhi references, 3) FMP Fumoffu had not too much to do with the original light novels.
I do believe Kyoani is a studio that shows a lot of promise, animation skill and a couple of original ideas (their best idea to date, IMO, was the episode rearranging in Haruhi). However, I don't think it's because they do good adaptations because, frankly, good adaptations are the least of my worries when it comes to anime, and I find it hard to believe that most of the rabid Haruhi fan crowd has read the light novels prior to the series' creation. Same with Kanon, Clannad and Lucky Star. In fact, I doubt most of the rabid Kyonani fan crowd has read/played the original material for any of their series period.
So Kyoani does 5 series, all adaptations, and suddenly it's a genius studio? As opposed to studios that have made dozens more adaptations, also in the same accurate manner?
Kyoani seems to take most of the will-proably-be-complete-fail ones. (extra points :p)
Some shows like Soul Eater are kinda hard to do bad. It's like Naruto and Bleach, even with filler they didn't loose much.
FMP is the only one that I think fits that category, with the rest walking on egg shells.
These other studios which you don't give name of, would you trust them with series like Lucky Star or Haruhi?
I'd say that's pretty sad. Kyoani of all new studios does show tremendous potential, but I'm saddened by their inability to come up with something original (as in not adapted from anything, especially not yet another Key eroge).
So, their only original works have been a couple of not very successful OVAs?
Actually they have only one their work without collab, that isn't based on smth. This is Munto I & II (well, okay, you can also count this like a two projects, as you want). Yes, they have potential, but well, you know, if they failed (actually, this anime is simply not for all, but let's check another variation) - that means nothing. Why ? Because this was their first serious work and they only practiced. It's nearly impossible to became without any experience a great studio. Moreover, adaptation - is a hard work too, don't think that their succes is only because adpatations, no, they are talanted enough. And the proof is near - check all their works after Munto. Everything is a pure win.
WanderingKnight
2008-09-02, 06:24
Kyoani seems to take most of the will-proably-be-complete-fail ones. (extra points )
Heh, try GONZO. And with good measure, I say. Kyoani is often received by a horde of "IT'S GONNA BE TEH BESTZOR ANIME IN HISTORY!!".
Some shows like Soul Eater are kinda hard to do bad. It's like Naruto and Bleach, even with filler they didn't loose much.
I disagree. To date Bones is the only studio that has ever managed to make a purely shounen series that doesn't bore the hell out of me. I believe the four-cour hard limit they impose to themselves for their shounen series has a lot to do with this. There are so many things where Soul Eater can fail--not getting the very peculiar style of the manga right, for example. They made a great choice for the soundtrack, which is something you don't have in manga and that adding it to an adaptation requires a lot of artistic accuracy (by the way, music is officially the thing Kyoani does the worst).
Also, Soul Eater is one hell of a faithful adaptation. Where are the hordes of manga readers praising it like it's the best thing since peanut butter? :rolleyes: I've even seen people stating that it's an original work.
These other studios which you don't give name of, would you trust them with series like Lucky Star or Haruhi?
I really don't understand the question. I haven't read the Lucky Star manga (well, only a little) or the Haruhi light novels. I do agree Kyoani made a wonderful job with Haruhi, since they approached it with originality (which is the complete opposite of doing a faithful adaptation)--but they've done it already. I have no doubts that had Madhouse or Bones grabbed the original material, the outcome would have been very different. I don't know which would I have liked more--but it's irrelevant to the point. My point is that making good adaptations doesn't make you a genius, and it's not what people actually like about Kyoani (what they actually like, I have no idea, but I'm hell sure it's not their adaptation skills).
And the proof is near - check all their works after Munto. Everything is a pure win.
I... really have different standards for "pure win" than you have. Yes, a Key game adaptation once in a while is fine, but it's far from awe-inspiring. Haruhi was very good, and I'm not willing to doubt that--but I have equally enjoyed (or much more) original material from other studios.
"Pure win" here means that they were all good enough, that's all.
Heh, try GONZO
Not a good variant, because a lot of people like to kick GONZO, because this is "simply GONZO", a lot of their works are good, but endings, ehm...
It's like Naruto and Bleach, even with filler they didn't loose much
I don't even want to comment this...
These other studios which you don't give name of, would you trust them with series like Lucky Star or Haruhi?
Sure, why not ? But not now, when KyoAny made a perfect adaptations and when they worked with Key's stuff perfect. That's why I don't want to see another Key adaptations from another studio. The same goes for Lucky Star & Haruhi.
Vallen Chaos Valiant
2008-09-02, 06:46
I really don't understand the question. I haven't read the Lucky Star manga (well, only a little) or the Haruhi light novels. I do agree Kyoani made a wonderful job with Haruhi, since they approached it with originality (which is the complete opposite of doing a faithful adaptation)--but they've done it already.
The only episode of Haruhi not based on the novels was scripted by the novel author himself.
If that's not faithful adaptation, I don't know what is.
Faithful adaptation doesn't mean photocopying everything over; it means doing it in a way the original author would approve.
I haven't read ... the Haruhi light novels.
On that note, you wouldn't consider the Haruhi anime unfaithful as an adaptation if you read the novels; you would be AMAZED at how accurate things can be.
Most of the "Originality" in Haruhi actually came from the novels; you missed that because you haven't read them.
My point is that making good adaptations doesn't make you a genius, and it's not what people actually like about Kyoani (what they actually like, I have no idea, but I'm hell sure it's not their adaptation skills).
That's your own opinion. :p It's the hole process of adapting into animated form things which are otherwise narative writing or a bunch of good looking pictures. A lot of manga has a crap load of thought chains, and honestly in a anime those things if left be are damn boring. Then you have the poor attempts of encorporating manga panty shot scenes into fan service as it's called... but this is besides the point.
Kyoani has proven it can take something and make it into a good anime. I don't care if the source material is the bible or toilet paper for what it's worth. Their job is to make it enjoyable; that's what a good adaptation is.
Soul Eater is copy/paste not an adaptation, same with series like Naruto, Bleach.
What exactly did they adapt? :heh: it's nothing but animation of the source.
I don't even bother watching the anime for those shows.
I feel I already saw it whenver I look at it; it's damn boring.
Sheez, total offtop. Okay, this topic is interesting...
it means doing it in a way the original author would approve
But who asks author ? Say, how often do you see really spoiled manga/novel/vn-adaptations ? Do as author wanted - is a plenty hard job too.
same with series like Naruto, Bleach.
Have you read manga ? I don't for further disscusion, but looks like that you forgot that magical word "fillers". And what is a total % of fillers in Bleach, say ?
What exactly did they adapt?
Manga. They spoiled some moments, but they adpated it peffectly with an orginal atmposhere.
Taking it as is and hoping for the best isn't exactly adapting. But w/e...
But who asks author ? Say, how often do you see really spoiled manga/novel/vn-adaptations ? Do as author wanted - is a plenty hard job too.
It is not unheard of for the production company to cooperate with the author of the material.
Although just buying the rights, no questions asked, is probably more common.
Yes, no one asks. But even they don't asks him and want to make it close to the orginal by all parameters, what they should do ? Right, adapt it good. Adaptation with saving an orignal character behavours, moments, atmposhere and so on - this is a hard job. That's what I'm talking about. Another variant with their own variations of adaptations, that are not covers ideas of manga/nove/vn/ranobe... erm... forget about this variant.
Vallen Chaos Valiant
2008-09-02, 07:00
Taking it as is and hoping for the best isn't exactly adapting.
It is not unheard of for the production company to cooperate with the author of the material.
Although just buying the rights, no questions asked, is probably more common.
That's the point I am making; KyoAni appear to seek author participation as a matter of policy, rather than as something optional.
Some changes were made in the Haruhi anime compared to the novels; but I can guarantee that KyoAni had ran all the proposed changes through the author approval first before doing it.
Author comes first for KyoAni. It's not about copying something, it is about doing it right.
Author comes first for KyoAni. It's not about copying something, it is about doing it right
True, that's why this studio has a great reputation.
WanderingKnight
2008-09-02, 07:23
@Vallen Chaos Valiant:
I get it, Haruhi was perfectly adapted from the light novels. Now, will you care to assert that most of the rabid Kyoani crowd has read the light novels prior to watching the anime, or better, has actually read them at all? Personally, I believe that's a laughable claim.
By the way, the "originality" I mentioned had more to do with the episode rearranging. Which no one apparently believes it's particularly impressing, something that pains me a bit since without that I'm sure Haruhi wouldn't have been quite the hit it was (well, that, and Hare Hare Yukai :rolleyes:).
That's your own opinion.
Probably not. If I've been taught anything from the way crowds tend to act, then I'm rather sure that they don't actually go seeking a good adaptation--since most don't even touch to the original material. They care for what's the hype-du-jour, believe they know everything about anime and that Kyoani is some sort of god because it gave them Haruhi and the moegirls from Key.
A lot of manga has a crap load of thought chains, and honestly in a anime those things if left be are damn boring. Then you have the poor attempts of encorporating manga panty shot scenes into fan service as it's called... but this is besides the point.
Heh, I've often heard this touted by Kyoani fans who say they are somewhat "pure" for not doing that... so tell me, then, what are the Mikuru-groping scenes, then? Not fanservice?
Kyoani has proven it can take something and make it into a good anime.
Bones, Production IG, Madhouse et al have been doing it since even before Kyoani as an active anime studio existed.
I don't care if the source material is the bible or toilet paper for what it's worth.
And herein you prove my point that most of the Kyoani fanbase doesn't care about the original material.
Soul Eater is copy/paste not an adaptation, same with series like Naruto, Bleach.
Ah, but I thought copy/paste was being faithful... :rolleyes: What, the fact that there are no moegirls is enough of a reason to put it in the place of Naruto or Bleach when things are actually quite different?
I hate generic monster-of-the-week ad-eternum shounen series. Soul Eater is definitely not one of those.
I don't even bother watching the anime for those shows.
I feel I already saw it whenver I look at it; it's damn boring.
Heh, no wonder you don't like it. You haven't even watched it!
Author comes first for KyoAni. It's not about copying something, it is about doing it right.
That's such a broad baseless definition and is so contradictory to everything people, included yourself, have been stating about Kyoani adaptations that I don't even know where to start tearing it apart. But I digress :)
PS: What I want is not to tear down your dream of Kyoani being the bestzor studio ever (well, perhaps yes), but to get you to admit that you simply like it more than other studios. I like Bones more than other studios--it's something I can't help. But I don't think it's the bestzor studio ever because, frankly, there are a lot of different studios out there.
Vallen Chaos Valiant
2008-09-02, 07:35
@Vallen Chaos Valiant:
I get it, Haruhi was perfectly adapted from the light novels. Now, will you care to assert that most of the rabid Kyoani crowd has read the light novels prior to watching the anime, or better, has actually read them at all? Personally, I believe that's a laughable claim.
By the way, the "originality" I mentioned had more to do with the episode rearranging. Which no one apparently believes it's particularly impressing, something that pains me a bit since without that I'm sure Haruhi wouldn't have been quite the hit it was (well, that, and Hare Hare Yukai :rolleyes:).
The episode-arranging was not present in the Japanese DVD release. And if that was the only originality you saw in the anime then I am afraid you never appriciated it.
It would be like seeing the latest Pixar movie and offering the praise of "well, the 3D was nice".
(And the novels were not written in chronological order; the chapter that ended up becoming episode 00 of the anime was written long after the school festival arc was published.)
And you don't need to have read the Haruhi light novels to appreciate the anime. You know why? Because the anime kept all that was good from the source material!
Adaptations are made because the original material had merit; and the job of an adapter is to bring that merit out. KyoAni does that, but few others do.
You don't need to adapt the source material properly to make good anime; but it won't be a good adaptation. KyoAni showed that we can have both.
On that note, you don't have to like Haruhi. But to say the adaptation wasn't accurate without reading the source material was a bit hasty on your part, wasn't it?
WanderingKnight
2008-09-02, 07:44
The episode-arranging was not present in the Japanese DVD release.
Alas, that is something I found sad. I repeat, Haruhi had hype because of 1) Hare Hare Yukai, 2) Great in-between animation and special effects, and 3) The episode ordering. Most people in Japan who bought the DVDs without watching the series probably rode on the hype, which was well established already.
And if that was the only originality you saw in the anime then I am afraid you never appriciated it.
It's not the only originality, but it's the most prominent one. And yes, I appreciated it--but I wouldn't have liked it as much if it wasn't because of the episode ordering.
And you don't need to have read the Haruhi light novels to appreciate the anime. You know why? Because the anime kept all that was good from the source material!
Huh? How much sense does that make? On one hand you say the studio deserves the praise it has because they make good adaptations, then you tell me I definitely need to read the Haruhi light novels to see all the originality and faithfulness involved in the anime, and now you tell me people don't even need to?
Protip: People don't need to read the Soul Eater manga to enjoy Soul Eater. Same with FMA. Same with all the Ghost in the Shell series and movies. Every good adaptation definitely breaks itself apart from its original source. But that's not exclusive to Kyoani, and it has never been so.
Adaptations are made because the original material had merit; and the job of an adapter is to bring that merit out. KyoAni does that, but few others do.
You're saying that almost no adaptation in the history of anime has been good until Kyoani! Do you realize the magnitude of your claim?
You don't need to adapt the source material properly to make good anime; but it won't be a good adaptation. KyoAni showed that we can have both.
That doesn't even make logical sense. Reread the sentence aloud and try get some logic out of it, because I can't.
On that note, you don't have to like Haruhi. But to say the adaptation wasn't accurate without reading the source material was a bit hasty on your part, wasn't it?
When did I say it wasn't accurate?!? I just said people don't even care about the source material.
If I've been taught anything from the way crowds tend to act, then I'm rather sure that they don't actually go seeking a good adaptation--since most don't even touch to the original material. They care for what's the hype-du-jour, believe they know everything about anime and that Kyoani is some sort of god because it gave them Haruhi and the moegirls from Key.That's completely beside the point. The reality is Kyoto Animation take good source material and make the best of it in anime format. While there may not be many Western fans of the original Haruhi light novels, there certainly are many Japanese ones. Kyoto Animation was held by Westerners in high regard even before Haruhi, but it's true, few raved about the series before it aired. Haruhi has brought on board a new generation of slightly obsessive and perhaps out-of-touch KyoAni fans, but that says nothing about the quality of their favorite animation studio.
Back to the topic: The disappearance of Tonari no 801-chan (http://indigosong.net/2008/09/post_88.html)
Chibe-kun wakes up and realizes that the TV anime by Kyoto Animation was just a dream. The question is why call it a disappearance? <_<;
Vallen Chaos Valiant
2008-09-02, 07:52
That doesn't even make logical sense. Reread the sentence aloud and try get some logic out of it, because I can't.
It make sense, because an anime can have a horrible adaptation that looked nothing like the original source material, yet still look good. It's rare, but it's been done.
Full Metal Alchemist anime is one such example. I love it as it is, but manga fans hate it with a passion because it has almost nothing to do with the manga.
WanderingKnight
2008-09-02, 08:10
While there may not be many Western fans of the original Haruhi light novels, there certainly are many Japanese ones.
I'm willing to go on a limb here and risk it by saying that, while there are definitely many more Haruhi light novel fans in Japan, there are many other Japanese fans who rode on the hype in the same way Westerners did.
Haruhi has brought on board a new generation of slightly obsessive and perhaps out-of-touch KyoAni fans, but that says nothing about the quality of their favorite animation studio.
I'm not denying Kyoani is good--because they have lots of potential. However, they're definitely not the bestzor anime studio out there like the majority of its Western fanbase claims. To become anything close to that, they definitely need to make something original that doesn't suck for a change (well, I haven't watched Munto, but it didn't fare too well).
Also, lol slightly.
It make sense, because an anime can have a horrible adaptation that looked nothing like the original source material, yet still look good. It's rare, but it's been done.
On one hand you say they make faithful adaptations, on the other hand you say it looks nothing like the original source. So what should I stay with?! That's what makes no sense in your argument.
So what should I stay with?
I'll explain a bit here. Let's take an original manga. How we can adapt it ? We can adapt absolutely all details directly from manga situations, or we can change a bit/not a bit this situations (but we should stay closer to the original ideas or it will be not an adaptation - it will be a variation then). We can change this situation so "nice", that final product will loose all good-parts & ideas from the original, or we can bring something new to the original idea and open & describe it more widely. See ? You don't need to adapt fully manga to show us it's original idea, you should only make it right and closer to the original but not with all details and you can always add your own.
To become anything close to that, they definitely need to make something original that doesn't suck for a change (well, I haven't watched Munto, but it didn't fare too well).Arbitrary statements like that are probably one reason why many people dismiss even your well thought out arguments. Just to let you know.
Ascaloth
2008-09-02, 08:36
On one hand you say they make faithful adaptations, on the other hand you say it looks nothing like the original source. So what should I stay with?! That's what makes no sense in your argument.
VCV was referring to the Full Metal Alchemist anime when he said it "looks nothing like the original source". How did you manage to link this to KyoAni?
VCV was referring to the Full Metal Alchemist anime when he said it "looks nothing like the original source"
Second half with a one big filler. Talking about manga & anime version isn't correct really - there is a belief (good belief) that original is "always better then any adaptation". But say, FMA (first half at least) isn't really a good adaptation of manga ?
DragoonKain3
2008-09-02, 08:43
The way I see it, KyoAni is the Blizzard of the anime world. In comparison to other companies, they don't have nearly as much 'products' to offer in the same period of time. They have their elitist fanboys, and they also have their haters just because they're popular. But most importantly, they're not particularly innovative, nor do they really claim to be. What they are known for (and really, what they do best) is to take what's already done, and simply just do it as good or even better. Revolutionize, rather than Reinvent, is what I see both companies do in their work, and they do a good job of it.
And really now, why should one care that a group of people claims that XXX studio is the 'bestzor anime studio'? Despite their 'claims', everyone should know it really is just a matter of opinion, and I don't see why anyone should get worked up just because a lot of people think that particular studio is the best thing since sliced bread. And last I checked, an arguement over opinion (and a highly subjective one at that) is ALWAYS an endeavour in futility, so I don't see why people like to waste time complaining about it. >_>
WanderingKnight
2008-09-02, 08:43
VCV was referring to the Full Metal Alchemist anime when he said it "looks nothing like the original source". How did you manage to link this to KyoAni?
He was talking about FMA as if it were one of the only things Kyoani-like (in terms of adaptation methods) in history.
Arbitrary statements like that are probably one reason why many people dismiss even your well thought out arguments. Just to let you know.
Oh, so how arbitrary is "Kyoani is the best studio ever" or "Kyoani makes the best adaptations", then?
Of course I'm being arbitrary. That's the whole point about liking something--it's arbitrary. But when people start making objective assertions about something (in this case, a particular studio) based on their personal likings, ignoring the whole history of the genre, then there is a conceptual problem. There exists some sort of need to justify their irrational liking, and people usually try to do so by making baseless objective assertions that have no place in reality.
And really now, why should one care that a group of people claims that XXX studio is the 'bestzor anime studio'? Despite their 'claims', everyone should know it really is just a matter of opinion, and I don't see why anyone should get worked up just because a lot of people think that particular studio is the best thing since sliced bread.
Eh, I don't care. I'm arguing like this because, well, I find it fun. Kyoani rabid fanboys can disappear from the face of the Earth and I wouldn't even move a finger.
Ascaloth
2008-09-02, 08:50
It make sense, because an anime can have a horrible adaptation that looked nothing like the original source material, yet still look good. It's rare, but it's been done.
Full Metal Alchemist anime is one such example. I love it as it is, but manga fans hate it with a passion because it has almost nothing to do with the manga.
He was talking about FMA as if it were one of the only things Kyoani-like (in terms of adaptation methods) in history.
Ok, honestly. I'm not making any sense of what you said here. How did VCV compare the FMA anime adaptation to KyoAni anime adaptations?
Eh, I don't care. I'm arguing like this because, well, I find it fun. Kyoani rabid fanboys can disappear from the face of the Earth and I wouldn't even move a finger.
So you're basically running a vendetta against KyoAni fans? Noted.
@WanderingKnight: Come on, man, never heard of semantics? It's not about your arguments, I mostly agreed with them, it's about how you present them to other people. You suck at that.
Probably not. If I've been taught anything from the way crowds tend to act, then I'm rather sure that they don't actually go seeking a good adaptation--since most don't even touch to the original material.They care for what's the hype-du-jour, believe they know everything about anime and that Kyoani is some sort of god because it gave them Haruhi and the moegirls from Key.
Your wording is a nice mix of truth and wathever your mind wanted to say.
Yeah you're right crowds act like that, so what? don't be part of the crowd or join them. (free world)
"believe they know everything about anime" I don't know where you've spawned it.
They can continue to believe as you seem to believe.
It's just like you choose not to believe: "it's just a matter of opinion"
Heh, I've often heard this touted by Kyoani fans who say they are somewhat "pure" for not doing that... so tell me, then, what are the Mikuru-groping scenes, then? Not fanservice?
Amusement. I don't really care what you want to call it; if you're excited by that by all means it's fan service or what-not for you. I always thought it was just funny.
And herein you prove my point that most of the Kyoani fanbase doesn't care about the original material.
Yeah, Vallen seems to care, I don't. So what...
Ah, but I thought copy/paste was being faithful...
Who was thinking what? You presumed and put it into my mouth if anything.
Just like you're labeling every haruhi fan a fanatic and part of your imaginary crowd.
Do you see me using stereotypes to rant against Bones?
Heh, no wonder you don't like it. You haven't even watched it!
I read the manga you self-confident presumtion monster. While watching the anime every episode would seem so coreographicly correct I could tell if a pin droped. boring~
Alas, that is something I found sad. I repeat, Haruhi had hype because of 1) Hare Hare Yukai, 2) Great in-between animation and special effects, and 3) The episode ordering. Most people in Japan who bought the DVDs without watching the series probably rode on the hype, which was well established already.
That's bad? An anime being exciting is bad?
You can live in land boredom and I'll continue to live with the hype.
Adaptations are made because the original material had merit; and the job of an adapter is to bring that merit out. KyoAni does that, but few others do.You're saying that almost no adaptation in the history of anime has been good until Kyoani! Do you realize the magnitude of your claim?
He never said that...
Huh? How much sense does that make? On one hand you say the studio deserves the praise it has because they make good adaptations, then you tell me I definitely need to read the Haruhi light novels to see all the originality and faithfulness involved in the anime, and now you tell me people don't even need to?
If people had to be complete geeks to understand it every anime would be comeplete fail.
I'm not denying Kyoani is good--because they have lots of potential. However, they're definitely not the bestzor anime studio out there like the majority of its Western fanbase claims. To become anything close to that, they definitely need to make something original that doesn't suck for a change (well, I haven't watched Munto, but it didn't fare too well).
You're the only one babling about it being Teh Shit Haxx0red studio, at most Vallen called it a "different kind of genious" some time ago, which you seem to have taken as some kind of personal offense. :) I think you've been running your mouth on how haruhi fans are some kind of cult so much you actually start to believe it. It's a popular cliche in haruhi jokes and wording meant to be fun and funny; it's you people who throw it out of proportion with your claims.
Hype? I don't see everyday someone praising haruhi as a good show but there sure as hell is someone like you to name us "rabid Kyoani crowd" or other form of hate. Haruhi was one of those shows where you either liked it or not, your so called hype (from back then) was nothing more then the absense (or minority) in snobs to pick stray hair on it. Other then that, good publicity I guess.
'bestzor anime studio'?
Well, let's say... how everyone can really judge it ? I know a lot of studios that doing their work great, so, say, how I should select between them ? Okay, I can only select by an overall story. Will it be wise ? No. Yes, I like Kyoto, i can even call myself a a bit a fan of it, but the difference here is that I also can call another studios great too. By an overall proportion for good/bad anime in their list ? Not wise too. So, you can really select your "best studio ever" only by your own symphaty to all stories, That's all.
what are the Mikuru-groping scenes, then? Not fanservice?
Check Koharu Biyori and you will see what is a real concentrated dissitilitred fanservice (and ecchi). This episodes in Haruhi I can't even call a fanservice. Only funny shots (maybe with a bit taste of fs, it's not really a fs at all), nothing more.
DonQuigleone
2008-09-02, 09:24
Is Tonari no 801-chan basically dead? in which case is this thread going to be closed?
Is Tonari no 801-chan basically dead? in which case is this thread going to be closed?
Still no proofs from Kyoto. They should clearly answer - is this an another massive joke or not. Without their answer we can't say it definetly.
Kyoto Animation should concentrate on animating bishoujo games, shounen (boy's) light novels, and male oriented moe 4-panel manga :P
This? Right here? Is the textbook definition of "fanboy privilege". I'm almost tempted to print it out and hang it up on my wall so I can have a convenient target next time a fanboy pisses me off and I feel like throwing something at them. And, no, the cute little ":P" at the end doesn't help.
You know, most things that are aimed at me--a woman who likes shoujo and ladies manga--have an animation budget of around five US dollars unless they can sell light up lockets and wands from it. Too often, I feel like studios take these concepts, half-ass them, and then toss them on the table for me to consume.
I was excited to see that KyoAni was going to adapt something I was actually interested in for once, but when the news came out I grew more and more upset with each passing reaction from KyoAni fanboys. Apparently this group thinks that they own stock in KyoAni, and therefore KyoAni isn't allowed to even glance at subjects they might not be interested in watching. It doesn't matter that 801-chan is aimed at men, and has a male POV character. The mere fact that it could possibly appeal to someone outside their regular moe-freak demographic was so scary that a good part of them acted as though KyoAni had grabbed them by the balls and slammed their collective dicks in a car door. Repeatedly.
I hope the next KyoAni project is a four season adaptation of a genuine BL manga. I will feast on the tears and anguished cries.
Leo_Otaku
2008-09-02, 13:49
I wonder if they put it on the back burner since they have other plans to work on other projects?
Other note KEY works appeal to lots demographics asides from moe going people and anime fans in general.
Other note KEY works appeal to lots demographics asides from moe going people and anime fans in general.
Way to focus on one minor point I was making.
Here, I will spell it out: Fanboys aren't the only ones that deserve beautifully animated, source-faithful anime.
This was a minuscule step in KyoAni branching out, and people act as though they'll never, eeeeever do a Key adaption agaaaain (oh nooooo).
I loved Air--despite it being an overwrought, empty production that ended up collapsing under the weight of its own melodrama by the end--and even though I can't get interested in any of the other Key adaptions, I'm not upset they were ever made.
But you have a certain subset of fanboys that act as though every tangentially BL-related series is a blot on the stain of the Holy Name of Anime, and it just gets really tiresome. Added that to the fact that guys can't seem to comprehend a series about a bird's eye view of a fujoshi that isn't "moe" or "catering to their idealized image of what a fangirl girlfriend should be", but is still endearing, even though the girl has her--GASP--own tastes and personality...its just ridiculous.
But you have a certain subset of fanboys that act as though every tangentially BL-related series is a blot on the stain of the Holy Name of Anime, and it just gets really tiresome. Added that to the fact that guys can't seem to comprehend a series about a bird's eye view of a fujoshi that isn't "moe" or "catering to their idealized image of what a fangirl girlfriend should be", but is still endearing, even though the girl has her--GASP--own tastes and personality...its just ridiculous.I don't see how an animated fujoshi wild life documentary is going to appeal to a wider audience. The reason we have so many shows aimed at men is because overall we are better anime customers. 801-chan by all means and purposes has to be endearing, a character we can all empathize with. I would not have been expecting an over-the-top moe character like Hiyori or Patricia (from Lucky Star), but to present 801-chan in a way to which only the fujoshi collective could unilaterally nod in agreement is not only an impossible task, but also a move that would not fare well with paying customers. When your usual fanbase expects you to put out something that will appeal to them as well, you simply have to do it, and KyoAni is in this position. Their goal would have been to make a show with bipartisan appeal, but that's not to say KyoAni hasn't accomplished this already. Whilst they may not be hardcore fujoshi, the few female otaku I know very much liked Lucky Star; it had that kind of appeal.
Still no proofs from Kyoto. They should clearly answer - is this an another massive joke or not. Without their answer we can't say it definetly.
Do they need to say anything? If the main sponsor/broadcaster has announced cancellation (with the manga publisher also removing all mention of the project), the answer is clear.
I don't see how an animated fujoshi wild life documentary is going to appeal to a wider audience. The reason we have so many shows aimed at men is because overall we are better anime customers.
Wrong. Junjou Romantica had the fourth best selling DVD debut in the first half of 2008, with over 8,000 copies alone in the first week. But by all means, hold on to the delusion that only men are worth targeting. It's pretty amusing.
801-chan by all means and purposes has to be endearing, a character we can all empathize with. I would not have been expecting an over-the-top moe character like Hiyori or Patricia (from Lucky Star), but to present 801-chan in a way to which only the fujoshi collective could unilaterally nod in agreement is not only an impossible task, but also a move that would not fare well with paying customers.
Those "paying customers" have already bought +200K of "801-chan" manga, which, is, again, aimed at men. Just because you are unable to identify with a realistic human being doesn't mean the rest of the otaku world has that same problem. In the very least, Chibe-kun is your point of reference--the everyman for you to latch onto and enjoy 801-chan from.
Their goal would have been to make a show with bipartisan appeal, but that's not to say KyoAni hasn't accomplished this already. Whilst they may not be hardcore fujoshi, the few female otaku I know very much liked Lucky Star; it had that kind of appeal.
"Few female otaku I know". I don't need to say anything else.
Wrong. Junjou Romantica had the fourth best selling DVD debut in the first half of 2008, with over 8,000 copies alone in the first week. But by all means, hold on to the delusion that only men are worth targeting. It's pretty amusing.I said "overall". But you can ask any North American anime distributor about this and they will tell you the same thing."Few female otaku I know". I don't need to say anything else.It's a supply thing. Small country, you know.
I said "overall".
And you were wrong.
And you were wrong.Um, because Junjou Romantica sold well? Um, no?
Um, because Junjou Romantica sold well? Um, no?
Um, yes? Because Junjou Romantica sold ridiculously well? To fujoshi? That buying segment you were just claiming weren't as good anime customers as men? And not to mention, I doubt men are the only ones buying things like Gundam 00? Still want to try to make unfounded claims?
Wow, your posts are getting progressively shorter and with less content with each line that passes. Before we end up calling names on each other, can we just agree that:
1. The female otaku market has a economic potential that may be underestimated by its male counterparts, but that is not by any means small
2. Despite that, the fact that KyoAni had only tried seinen and bishoujo titles before made its intent to animate of Tonari no 801-chan, if not bad, then risky and somewhat surprising?
That and the fact that we have been rehashing the same argument for 50 posts :heh:
Kaioshin Sama
2008-09-02, 16:47
What made KyoAni special, is that they have adapted source materials into anime far more successfully than anyone ever thought possible.
Kyoani seems to take most of the will-proably-be-complete-fail ones. (extra points )
So wait.....they're a genius studio because they manage to exceed peoples low expectations of their adaptations source material? That can be said for a lot of studios adaptations.
While VCV may have phrased his argument fuzzily, I think he just meant that they are consistently good at adapting. That the source material may or may not be good depends on everyone tastes, but at least it can be argued that they are faithful to a point.
When your usual fanbase expects you to put out something that will appeal to them as well, you simply have to do it, and KyoAni is in this position.
Is that really true? You're assuming that they can only have one more-or-less homogeneous fanbase. But why should they restrict themselves to that single market segment? From a business perspective surely they just have to pander to the fanboys enough to pay the bills - assuming they're in reasonable financial health, I don't see why they can't undertake side-projects that are artistically interesting even if they don't have the merchandising power of their mainstream work.
Thought experiment: KyoAni take musouka's advice and spend the next year going totally otome. A million fanboys wail and gnash their teeth. Then comes the announcement: "SHnY Season 2, coming in 2010." Do you really believe the response will be "screw you guys, we're not watching because you've already hurt our feelings by trying something different"? I think not :)
Well, you could say that this was all a bad dream (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2008-09-02/tonari-no-801-chan-creator-writes-about-canceled-anime) and move on. Some of you guys are really taking this a little too hard.
Well, you could say that this was all a bad dream (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2008-09-02/tonari-no-801-chan-creator-writes-about-canceled-anime) and move on. Some of you guys are really taking this a little too hard.
I'm not taking the news of its cancellation hard--it's unfortunate, but it happens--I'm taking exception to the attitude concerning its announcement and sudden cancellation. Two totally different things.
It's not like my 2009 anime hopes hinged on 801. (Now if Hetalia gets canceled, then you will see much wailing and gnashing of teeth.)
stormy001_M1A2
2008-09-02, 21:30
I thought this anime is already dead? I am quite surprised as how fast it was shelved though, it is almost never existed.
I think the cancellation is pretty much final.
I thought this anime is already dead? I am quite surprised as how fast it was shelved though, it is almost never existed.
I think the cancellation is pretty much final.
Kind of like sweeping it under a rug and pretending that it never happened. So does this count as an example of dark history?
Ascaloth
2008-09-02, 22:23
So wait.....they're a genius studio because they manage to exceed peoples low expectations of their adaptations source material? That can be said for a lot of studios adaptations.
Incorrect interpretation. KyoAni is regarded as a genius studio because before they came about, making good and faithful anime adaptations of existing material were considered one of the more impossible jobs in the industry.
In a sense, they did the impossible, saw the invisible, touched the untouchable, and broke the unbreakable. /lame
WanderingKnight
2008-09-02, 22:24
Okay, I wasn't able to respond to this thread at work because it would have required too much time, but now that I'm back home I'll do my best to indulge Toua and make my point clearer :) I'll respond first to Cats' post and then I'll present an alternative Kyoani reality with which, I hope, I'll be able to pull my point through.
This is a LONG ASS POST. There's a tl;dr at the bottom if you want the quick and simple way. But I wanted to have some fun while writing, so I made myself up a little story :) I really don't know where I'm going with this post, and it might end up like mindless ramblings, but what the heck, I barely get the chance to ramble about Kyoani in these forums (I like to steer clear of Kyoani-related threads, as I do with shounen series threads).
Your wording is a nice mix of truth and wathever your mind wanted to say.
Sometimes in my town we call this a personal opinion. I don't know, perhaps they call it otherwise around yours.
Amusement. I don't really care what you want to call it; if you're excited by that by all means it's fan service or what-not for you. I always thought it was just funny.
Hey, it is funny all right. Well, if I'm gonna get deep, it's funny from a misogynistic point of view, but what the heck. Both are clear fanservice. One is a panty shot, the other is groping. That you don't interpret groping as fanservice doesn't mean that 1) Kyoani (or the original author) did it without that purpose, and 2) that many, well, fans, interpret it as fanservice.
Who was thinking what? You presumed and put it into my mouth if anything.
Just like you're labeling every haruhi fan a fanatic and part of your imaginary crowd.
lol labeling.
I am not labeling anyone. I liked Haruhi all right. The thing that gets me a little dazzled is that many people seem to believe that Kyoani does adaptations better than anyone and that that's what they like about it. That no matter what Kyoani does, it will always be perfect, and that it could not be other way. That Kyoani is not wasting its potential, like I believe they are, but fulfilling it. I might be making an overly broad and arrogant assumption here, but I believe many of those who believe that don't even know themselves. I will try to demonstrate that with the alternative reality scenario I'll present later in this post.
Do you see me using stereotypes to rant against Bones?
Look, I don't hate Kyoani. I am not ranting against Kyoani (well, partly yes, that is, I'm displeased at their misplaced potential).
I read the manga you self-confident presumtion monster. While watching the anime every episode would seem so coreographicly correct I could tell if a pin droped. boring~
Uuh... so how does that make sense in the "KYOANI MAKES THE BESTZOREST ADAPTATIONS WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOO"? I mean, if you played the Key games, you obviously know everything that will happen in the Air, Clannad and Kanon anime unless you get a huge deviation from the original material in the style Gonzo likes to do. But I'm told that's what people like about Kyoani, so what am I to understand from this then?
That's bad? An anime being exciting is bad?
You can live in land boredom and I'll continue to live with the hype.
Please use your head and read in context. I was stating that most of the people who rode on the hype had no experience whatsoever with the original material, so they obviously couldn't have originally praised Kyoani for making a great adaptation.
He never said that...
He explicitly said that, until Kyoani, there were very few instances of studios "getting adaptations right".
You're the only one babling about it being Teh Shit Haxx0red studio, at most Vallen called it a "different kind of genious" some time ago, which you seem to have taken as some kind of personal offense. I think you've been running your mouth on how haruhi fans are some kind of cult so much you actually start to believe it.
I don't pursue myself with that. Hell, as I said already (and lol @ Ascaloth's "vendetta against Kyoani fans", come on, no group of anime fans for chrissakes deserves such an amount of attention) I really don't care. I'm arguing here because I find it entertaining, that's all. It's not the end-all, be-all of my anime viewing experience. Kyoani can go and shoot themselves in the head for all I care.
Hype? I don't see everyday someone praising haruhi as a good show but there sure as hell is someone like you to name us "rabid Kyoani crowd" or other form of hate.
lol @ hate. As if it were some sort of persecution. Come on, don't feel pointed at simply because I say "rabid Haruhi fans". You know they exist. Everyone knows. Denying their existence would be as pointless as denying the banality of all this discussion other than to exercise our critical-thinking ability.
Haruhi was one of those shows where you either liked it or not, your so called hype (from back then) was nothing more then the absense (or minority) in snobs to pick stray hair on it.
What part of I liked the damn show do you not understand?
Other then that, good publicity I guess.
lolwut
Okay, and now I present to you WanderingKnight's Alternate Reality!
Let's picture the following: A sunny and radiant morning, the executive head of Kyoani's parent company walks towards his work building like every other morning. He is politely bowed at by every employee that sees him pass through the company's campus. When he is reaching for the main doors of the building, a sudden bolt of lightning comes raining from the skies and fries him in the spot.
The whole company crazes.
For obvious reasons, the VP needs to take over the situation. He issues the required orders to keep his underlings calmed, and somehow they all get off this crisis in less than a week. Then, on the next week, a sudden realization comes to this young, hot-headed executive: They had to come up with an idea for Kyoani to animate, or the investors would have his head. Of course, the guy being a very very young rising star, he lacked enough experience to keep his head cool. So, he ponders over the issue the day before their meeting with the company's investors, and after being unable to figure anything out, he suddenly glances at his manga collection and sees a shiny, shiny title among all of his disordered books: Masamune Shirow's masterpiece, Ghost in the Shell.
Of course, in the poor state his mind was at the moment, he could do nothing more: With only an hour left for the imminent meeting that would seal his fate, he hastily grabs the 400-page tankoubon, gets his suit in place, and hurries off to work. The investors see him arrive at the meeting office, with his face hollow and his eyes red from desperation, and start feeling their fingers tickling. And so, in a rapture of sheer madness and grandeur, the young executive yells "This is our project!", and smashes the tankoubon against the table.
Now, let's digress for a moment, and allow me to make a simple wink of confidence towards the reader. Let's believe it. Let's believe that Kyoani's parent company's investors are insane enough to go through with this. In the real world, this young executive would obviously get fired instantly for giving such an idea, and the investors would take all their money off the studio. But this is WanderingKnight's Alternate Reality, and in this Alternate Reality, Kyoani's investors are insane.
Going back to our story, the investors are watching the young executive in awe. They whisper among each other, they trade gazes of amazement. They get up, one by one, and they express their grateful approval of the project in unison. Everyone pats the executive on the back as if he's had the greatest idea of the century.
And so, after millions of yens spent negotiating GITS' licensing terms, the project pulls through. Months of planning, careful production and masterpiece-quality artistic directing makes this GITS adaptation blow anything Production IG and Mamoru Oshii could throw at it. Masamune Shirow himself is invited to preview the series, and he cries tears of joy when he sees the results. And despite the very hard time I'm having trying to picture a Kyoani-eyed Major Kusanagi, Masamune declares, in a rapture of nostalgia and joy, that this adaptation is better than whatever he could have ever pulled off. It is basically the epitome of Ghost in the Shell. No one, no, nothing else could have made it better.
So now that we got to this point in the story, let me begin explaining why I'm doing what I'm doing. My point is the following: In this Alternate Reality where Kyoani's investors are insane and they decide to pull off a GITS adaptation, tell me (and do this with a hand over your heart): Do you really believe it would gather the same fanbase that Kyoani's Key adaptations have? Do you believe that people who have learned to appreciate simple-minded and rather empty (do I need to put "personal opinion" tags on that?) characters such as the ones you can find in Kanon or Clannad can effectively appreciate in full the complex subtleties of GITS' heavily political and philosophical plotline, the intricacies of its adult characters? Even more, do you believe those people can actually like it?
(And before you call me on this: Yes, I do believe they can, and I do know there are many who do. I'm not actually stating that liking more complex things is a sign of greater intelligence or of something inherently more positive--the complexity and intricacies of a work like GITS would simply not work in things like Kanon or Clannad, because they are things that definitely don't mix. I can like both and I'm sure many among you also can, but let's be realistic: not all people do. Many people, I'd be willing to say most people have somewhat restricted tastes. Some people can't stand Kanon-like series, some people can't stand GITS-like series).
So, do you really think too many of their original fanbase would do that? Or are they thinking about other things when they think "I like Kyoani!". They're probably liking the genre Kyoani touches (Key eroge adaptations), and don't really consider the fact that what is actually appealing to them are the themes contained within the original material, not the way Kyoani actually handled things--because, I insist, a sizeable part of the Kyoani fanbase hasn't even touched the material on which they've based their series.
tl;dr: For most fans, the reason why Kyoani is "the bestzors studio" is because they appeal to their tastes. No matter what they say, for many rabid fans, what counts is not the fact that they make great adaptations, but that they like the themes Kyoani throws at them. And that isn't Kyoani's strength--it's actually the original material's. Very few people manage to think too much about what they absorb. I like to think I'm on the side of those who think more, but I really don't know. And thus their fanbase is comprised, in a great part, of those who actually don't give a damn about the status of Kyoani's skills in adaptation, but prefer them because it provides them with the themes they like--covered already by the original material. The status they achieved in the market today has to do a lot with the market they've been catering to. Kyoani's perfect GITS adaptation wouldn't even fly as high as Haruhi ever flew, even if many would consider GITS' original material as a superior work of art (yeah that is highly subjective, but that's besides the point--there are two different parties that consider those works in different ways, and both are being subjective).
I know I went on the long road here, but I had way too much time on the bus home. I had fun though.
I almost feel bad for replying to such a long winded post in such a short one but... such is life :p
As it was mentioned many times earlier, KyoAni's strong point is at adapting and being very good at maintaining the original work spirit, and transmitting it to the TV (wheter they are the best at it or not is a whole other matter altogether. We are just asserting they are good at it).
When they adapt KEY based works, they cater to the KEY fanbase. When they adapted MoSH and Lucky Star, they mainly catered to the Kadowaka fanbase. And when they coadapted the Full Metal Panic series, yes, they catered to the original novel fan base. All the while they did it for different groups. Do they care much if the MoSH guys scream and commit sepukku while they are a KEY based show? No because they know the MoSH guys are a loyal markey, and that for that moment they are selling the product at a different market sector.
So, doing an analogy, what would happen if they did a GITS adaption? Would the MoSH, FMP, and KEY fans collectively decry the series, sit in front of the TV and spend the night not understanding it? Not really, maybe they would still decry it, all the while the people who read and love GITS and saw the I.G. adaptation would be happy in front of the TV, marking out the strong and weak points, and everyone is happy.
Except the I.G. guys, because somehow one of their big franchises was stolen from under their noses. On a second though, maybe this would encourage them to continue the Seirei no Moribito series. So the Guardian of the Sacred Spirits fans are also happy now.
The End.
The bottom lesson? Maybe we should add your addendum to the whole argument: KyoAni strong point is both having an eye for potentially good series based on strong material, and being good at adapting it.
WanderingKnight
2008-09-02, 22:50
Ahh, but what would have happened to Kyoani's current status if they had begun with a GITS adaptation instead of with a Key one or the runaway hit they had with Haruhi? Do you really think they would have the same status?
GITS fans are noticeably lesser in number, and represents a very specific subset of the anime-viewing fanbase. Which means less hype, and thus less sales.
What I actually meant by that long winded post (which makes me feel a bit silly right now) is that very few rabid fanboys would watch anything Kyoani threw at them, like many proclaim they would, because many don't even understand what they like about Kyoani. And what they like probably has nothing to do with their adaptation skills.
I added a bottom line in my previous post. Having good marketing eye was another of KyoAni's strong points.
BTW, the project that launched them to fame was actually their coproduction of Full Metal Panic, Fumoffu. By the time they aired AIR (w00t!), the anticipation was already high. They knew how to play their cards.
Ascaloth
2008-09-02, 23:22
@WanderingKnight
Ok, honestly. I'm not making any sense of what you said here. How did VCV compare the FMA anime adaptation to KyoAni anime adaptations?
Answer this, please. Don't be dodging what's inconvenient to you like certain people.
I am not labeling anyone. I liked Haruhi all right. The thing that gets me a little dazzled is that many people seem to believe that Kyoani does adaptations better than anyone and that that's what they like about it. That no matter what Kyoani does, it will always be perfect, and that it could not be other way. That Kyoani is not wasting its potential, like I believe they are, but fulfilling it. I might be making an overly broad and arrogant assumption here, but I believe many of those who believe that don't even know themselves. I will try to demonstrate that with the alternative reality scenario I'll present later in this post.
Let's see.....2 FMP sequels which were more faithful adaptations with tighter storylines than its GONZO predecessor, 3 Key adaptations which have basically set the benchmark for faithful VN adaptations everywhere, the Haruhi adaptation which the novel readers (and considering the existence of the complete Baka-Tsuki translations, it's not unthinkable there would actually be a lot of them by now) themselves consider very faithful to the novels, and only one Lucky Star adaptation which, though debatable as to its faithfulness, was nowhere near being a complete trainwreck. They may not have a very long track record, but it is illustrious and consistent enough such that you can't really blame their fans for having the mindset that they have the Midas Touch.
As to your assertion that they think that's what they like about it.....well, let's get back to this down the line.
Look, I don't hate Kyoani. I am not ranting against Kyoani (well, partly yes, that is, I'm displeased at their misplaced potential).
The way I see it, it's better to use an economics concept to think about KyoAni's potential; namely, the concept of comparative advantage. You think that they're wasting their potential by not trying their hand at original material; well maybe, not like you completely lack a point there. But from the way I see it, the studio made their name on great adaptations, and most of the skill they have is in that department; sure, they can try their hand at original material, but who is to say they can be anywhere near as good as it as they are with adaptations? In fact, they might not be; better to utilize their comparative advantage in adaptations, than to try and compete with other studios which do have comparative advantages in original material, yes?
tl;dr: For most fans, the reason why Kyoani is "the bestzors studio" is because they appeal to their tastes. No matter what they say, for many rabid fans, what counts is not the fact that they make great adaptations, but that they like the themes Kyoani throws at them. And that isn't Kyoani's strength--it's actually the original material's. Very few people manage to think too much about what they absorb. I like to think I'm on the side of those who think more, but I really don't know. And thus their fanbase is comprised, in a great part, of those who actually don't give a damn about the status of Kyoani's skills in adaptation, but prefer them because it provides them with the themes they like--covered already by the original material. The status they achieved in the market today has to do a lot with the market they've been catering to.
Following from what I said earlier, I think even the more rabid KyoAni fans recognize deep down that the depiction of their favourite studio as having the Midas Touch may be more apt than they think; yes, much of what they touch becomes gold, but the Touch doesn't do jack if there's nothing to work with in the first place, would it? And I think that is what's happening here; when you have the few who have read or played the original source material telling the rest that KyoAni's adaptation of these are pretty damned faithful, it just gives the unread majority one more reason to credit KyoAni for something that they already like a lot in the first place.
Besides, I daresay that it's a good feeling for the average KyoAni fan to know that what they're getting is pretty faithful to the original story as it is, the latter of which they might not have a chance to read or play due to other circumstances. After all, it's reassuring when the veterans of the original source material don't go around screaming "THERE IS NO T****H*ME / F*** S*** N**** ANIME" for once. :p
He explicitly said that, until Kyoani, there were very few instances of studios "getting adaptations right".
Adaptations are made because the original material had merit; and the job of an adapter is to bring that merit out. KyoAni does that, but few others do.
You're saying that almost no adaptation in the history of anime has been good until Kyoani! Do you realize the magnitude of your claim?
For one thing, "few" != "almost none"
Perhaps VCV will have to pull out statistics spanning from all the way to the beginning of anime history before you will be satisfied on this matter? In that case, I will have to advise him to do just that, as taxing an endeavour as it may be.
Kaioshin Sama
2008-09-02, 23:30
Incorrect interpretation. KyoAni is regarded as a genius studio because before they came about, making good and faithful anime adaptations of existing material were considered one of the more impossible jobs in the industry.
Oh really? And how's that again? You're trying to tell me nobody has ever made a good and faithful adapation of an anime ever before Kyoani? Maybe Visual Novel/Eroge adaptations, but in general? I find that hard to take seriously.
Ascaloth
2008-09-02, 23:35
Oh really? And how's that again? You're trying to tell me nobody has ever made a good and faithful adapation of an anime ever? Maybe Visual Novel/Eroge adaptations, but in general? I find that hard to take seriously.
I do believe that I have not explicitly stated the word "ever". It's not like we have a surplus of straw as it is; don't waste any more of it making strawmen.
Kaioshin Sama
2008-09-02, 23:37
I do believe that I have not explicitly stated the word "ever". It's not like we have a surplus of straw as it is; don't waste any more of it making strawmen.
You claim they did something thought impossible, so I kind of assume you mean that nobody ever did it before. Otherwise nobody would consider it impossible, they would consider it possible, but challenging.
DragoonKain3
2008-09-02, 23:39
Ahh, but what would have happened to Kyoani's current status if they had begun with a GITS adaptation instead of with a Key one or the runaway hit they had with Haruhi? Do you really think they would have the same status?
In a word? Yes. It's just this time instead of having Haruhi-tards running around each and every forum asking when's the next Haruhi season is coming up, it would be the Kusanagi-tards running around each and every forum asking when's the next GITS season is coming up.
GITS fans are noticeably lesser in number, and represents a very specific subset of the anime-viewing fanbase. Which means less hype, and thus less sales.
Now we're on the chicken and egg question. Does Haruhi's main source of popularity comes from the novels, or the anime adaptation of it?
I'm more inclined to believe the latter, as the Haruhi craze did NOT come after the anime aired. In fact, from what I remember of 2006, there was no hype of the Haruhi anime at all before it aired, at least not in the English speaking world. In Japan, Haruhi fans before teh anime probably didn't amount to much, as a manga adaptation (dated before the anime) actually failed!
So yes, KyoAni is the majority of the reason why Haruhi is popular. So yes, if KyoAni did do GITS and they did it as well as Haruhi, then hell yeah, there would be as much if not more Kusanagi-tards as there are Haruhi-tards now. They won't be the same specific set of people, but there would be at least the same amount of people if not more.
What I actually meant by that long winded post (which makes me feel a bit silly right now) is that very few rabid fanboys would watch anything Kyoani threw at them, like many proclaim they would.
I'd like to meet these 'rabid fanboys', because as anyone should know, such general statements are just merely a hyperbole (which really, is basically me being nice by not saying they're just spewing a whole load of bull crap). Even now, I know quite a number of Haruhi fans that doesn't like FMP because its Mecha, Lucky Star because it's Slice of Life, and it's Key Adaptations because it's Melodrama etc. etc. And because such 'claims' like these have nothing of substance, it's just best to ignore when someone says something along the same lines.
Ascaloth
2008-09-02, 23:43
You claim they did something thought impossible, so I kind of assume you mean that nobody ever did it before. Otherwise nobody would consider it impossible, they would consider it possible, but challenging.
If you would kindly take the time to re-read what I posted, you would see that I said "one of the more impossible jobs". If you had not conveniently ignored the qualifier in your attempt to paint my relativistic statement as an absolutist one, you would not have attempted to put into my mouth the claim that no one else before KyoAni has done it before.
You can do much better than using mere semantics against me, you know.
WanderingKnight
2008-09-02, 23:47
Answer this, please. Don't be dodging what's inconvenient to you like certain people.
lol inconvenient.
My original quote:
On one hand you say they make faithful adaptations, on the other hand you say it looks nothing like the original source. So what should I stay with?! That's what makes no sense in your argument.
I was exaggerating the incoherence of making something completely faithful and something different from the original source at the same time, which is something he said Kyoani did. FMA got probably mixed up in the middle of it regarding these points, and yes, it was probably my blunder
And if I get really down to it, I don't care. I might just have misread a line in my hastiness to reply. Boohoo, you got me. Point to you. It doesn't even scratch my argument either way.
Haruhi adaptation which the novel readers (and considering the existence of the complete Baka-Tsuki translations, it's not unthinkable there would actually be a lot of them by now)
Ah, all right. Where was that part of my argument where I actually referred to the fact that Haruhi gained its hype without people actually reading the novels? I know it must be around there somewhere. The fact that they read it afterwards is irrelevant--many people hailed Kyoani as the bestzors studio because of the Haruhi anime, and most hadn't read the novels at the time.
They may not have a very long track record, but it is illustrious and consistent enough such that you can't really blame their fans for having the mindset that they have the Midas Touch.
Go and apply that "Midas Touch" to goddamn GITS and I want to see how many rabid Kyoani fanboys you can gather in rounds to watch it.
But from the way I see it, the studio made their name on great adaptations, and most of the skill they have is in that department; sure, they can try their hand at original material, but who is to say they can be anywhere near as good as it as they are with adaptations?
The point is that adaptations are easy. Yes, many adaptations can and have been screwed up, but many more are carried on faithfully. Kyonani isn't by any stretch the only studio in Japan to have produced a couple of faithful adaptations. Perhaps, just perhaps, theirs are better--perhaps they're not particularly so. I already say I believe Kyoani suck hard at the music department, which I actually believe it plays a very important role in the way the studio interprets the original material--so they have flaws, at least the way I see it.
Original works, on the other hand, are much more complicated. They can get terribly screwed up in an infinite number of ways. Gainax almost screwed it up hard with NGE and ended up producing what I consider one of the most groundbreaking anime in existence, for example. There's an inherent risk regarding original works that you don't take when doing an adaptation. And there's an inherent payoff to this risk that adaptations don't bring you--an artistic payoff, so to speak.
And I think that is what's happening here; when you have the few who have read or played the original source material telling the rest that KyoAni's adaptation of these are pretty damned faithful, it just gives the unread majority one more reason to credit KyoAni for something that they already like a lot in the first place.
Oh great. So now they experience it through proxy. What's next? Channeling?
Sorry if I'm simplifying your argument too much, but there's not much to do with it.
"YEAH! THEY'RE SOOOOOOOOO FAITHFUL!!!!"
"Uh, have you ready anything?"
"Uh, actually, no."
"Uh huh".
I know what you mean, and I understand it. But please understand my position--it's kinda hard (or immensely stupid) to appreciate a studio for doing great adaptations when you don't actually experience the original material. As I said already, the most you can enjoy out of it is the themes covered by their works--which has much more to do with the fanbase they cater to, so back to my main argument it is.
For one thing, "few" != "almost none"
Aw, come on. It's a figure of speech.
Perhaps VCV will have to pull out statistics spanning from all the way to the beginning of anime history before you will be satisfied on this matter? In that case, I will have to advise him to do just that, as taxing an endeavour as it may be.
And that reductio ad absurdum isn't even funny.
In a word? Yes. It's just this time instead of having Haruhi-tards running around each and every forum asking when's the next Haruhi season is coming up, it would be the Kusanagi-tards running around each and every forum asking when's the next GITS season is coming up.
I... don't really think you have measured the GITS fanbase enough. Haruhi is something that definitely caters to a much, much wider audience.
How many people are watching Real Drive now?
Kaioshin Sama
2008-09-03, 00:07
If you would kindly take the time to re-read what I posted, you would see that I said "one of the more impossible jobs". If you had not conveniently ignored the qualifier in your attempt to paint my relativistic statement as an absolutist one, you would not have attempted to put into my mouth the claim that no one else before KyoAni has done it before.
You can do much better than using mere semantics against me, you know.
Well "one of the more impossible jobs" doesn't present a very convincing stance to me just the same that they are somehow better then other studios. Even then I would have to disagree that it's one of the more impossible jobs. I've seen loads of faithful and good adaptations before.
Also I disagree that absolute unyielding faithfulness is an absolute virtue. Just last night I saw a documentary on the movie The Lord of The Rings: The Two Towers where Peter Jackson talked about how he shifted the order of some events as well as giving some characters dialogue to other characters in order to make the story flow better in a movie format. That is the purpose of an adaptation, to make the original material work as best it can in a new format. Sometimes that means making some minor changes.
Anyway, your arguing style still hinges on initially making vague statements and then trying to call people out on missing your point in order to try and discredit them. It's not my fault if you keep changing your argument every single post though. You like to drag the discussion down into a circular argument but the thing is you still haven't made a case for your argument nor built a very strong foundation for your position. If your going to argue a point then why not come out strong initially and then you won't have people arguing semantics with you.
Just for reference, my viewpoint is that Kyoani is good enough at what they do with the Key Novels/Kadokawa moe series adaptations, but that doesn't make me ready to go out and call them a genius studio nor the best. Their stock is only as strong as their fans enjoyment of that particular genre.
You know people? With so much name calling going on here I've lost track of what your argument was.
According to WanderingKnight it isn't so much that KyoAni should be recognized for their ability for adapting existing works, but rather for their marketing eye and their ability to correctly cater to their target market. From what I read from Ascaloth's post, he doesn't completely disagree with this idea, however he would like to give KyoAni a little more weight to the fact that KyoAni makes faithful adaptations and that that becomes their main competitive advantage. So in the end it becomes a battle of how much weight each advantage has in relation to the other... right?
Ascaloth
2008-09-03, 00:15
I was exaggerating the incoherence of making something completely faithful and something different from the original source at the same time, which is something he said Kyoani did. FMA got probably mixed up in the middle of it regarding these points, and yes, it was probably my blunder
And if I get really down to it, I don't care. I might just have misread a line in my hastiness to reply. Boohoo, you got me. Point to you. It doesn't even scratch my argument either way.
I wasn't trying to scratch your argument with this point, I merely wanted to know how your logic worked regarding this. While we're at it, this is a sufficient response. Thank you for taking your time to complete the questionnaire. :p
Ah, all right. Where was that part of my argument where I actually referred to the fact that Haruhi gained its hype without people actually reading the novels? I know it must be around there somewhere. The fact that they read it afterwards is irrelevant--many people hailed Kyoani as the bestzors studio because of the Haruhi anime, and most hadn't read the novels at the time.
The general argument on the part of KyoAni is that they make "good and faithful adaptations". This merely gives credence to the "good" part.
Go and apply that "Midas Touch" to goddamn GITS and I want to see how many rabid Kyoani fanboys you can gather in rounds to watch it.
Counterfactual history (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterfactual_history) is often considered as merely speculative, and thus does not meet the standards of proper argument.
The point is that adaptations are easy. Yes, many adaptations can and have been screwed up, but many more are carried on faithfully. Kyonani isn't by any stretch the only studio in Japan to have produced a couple of faithful adaptations. Perhaps, just perhaps, theirs are better--perhaps they're not particularly so. I already say I believe Kyoani suck hard at the music department, which I actually believe it plays a very important role in the way the studio interprets the original material--so they have flaws, at least the way I see it.
Original works, on the other hand, are much more complicated. They can get terribly screwed up in an infinite number of ways. Gainax almost screwed it up hard with NGE and ended up producing what I consider one of the most groundbreaking anime in existence, for example. There's an inherent risk regarding original works that you don't take when doing an adaptation. And there's an inherent payoff to this risk that adaptations don't bring you--an artistic payoff, so to speak.
Please bring up a sufficient number of examples to bolster your otherwise baseless claim that adaptations are easy to do, and that because of this, many more adaptations are carried on faithfully than those which are not.
Oh great. So now they experience it through proxy. What's next? Channeling?
Sorry if I'm simplifying your argument too much, but there's not much to do with it.
"YEAH! THEY'RE SOOOOOOOOO FAITHFUL!!!!"
"Uh, have you ready anything?"
"Uh, actually, no."
"Uh huh".
I know what you mean, and I understand it. But please understand my position--it's kinda hard (or immensely stupid) to appreciate a studio for doing great adaptations when you don't actually experience the original material. As I said already, the most you can enjoy out of it is the themes covered by their works--which has much more to do with the fanbase they cater to, so back to my main argument it is.
That might be so, but even then, does that mean that the comments made by (game/novel) veterans of the sources that KyoAni made faithful adaptations of these works should be disregarded just because they are not the majority?
Well "one of the more impossible jobs" doesn't present a very convincing stance to me just the same that they are somehow better then other studios. Even then I would have to disagree that it's one of the more impossible jobs. I've seen loads of faithful and good adaptations before.
Examples, please. And do make sure your examples are backed by facts as well as the agreement of many, since just having your sole opinion on it doesn't count for much. And lastly, show us a studio that can do these faithful and good adaptations as consistently as KyoAni does. That's a far more important point to the argument than you might imagine.
Also I disagree that absolute unyielding faithfulness is an absolute virtue. Just last night I saw a documentary on the movie The Lord of The Rings: The Two Towers where Peter Jackson talked about how he shifted the order of some events as well as giving some characters dialogue to other characters in order to make the story flow better in a movie format. That is the purpose of an adaptation, to make the original material work as best it can in a new format. Sometimes that means making some minor changes.
I do not believe that anyone was arguing for absolute unyielding faithfulness here; it's just that typing "faithfulness to the spirit of the source material" each and every time is a lot more work on the fingers, you know. It's not a secret that KyoAni has made changes in their adapatations as well.
Anyway, your arguing style still hinges on initially making vague statements and then trying to call people out on missing your point in order to try and discredit them. It's not my fault if you keep changing your argument every single post though. You like to drag the discussion down into a circular argument but the thing is you still haven't made a case for your argument nor built a very strong foundation for your position. If your going to argue a point then why not come out strong initially and then you won't have people arguing semantics with you.
Style-over-Substance Fallacy (ad hominem variant) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Style_over_substance_fallacy). I don't see a need to respond to this.
You know people? With so much name calling going on here I've lost track of what your argument was.
According to WanderingKnight it isn't so much that KyoAni should be recognized for their ability for adapting existing works, but rather for their marketing eye and their ability to correctly cater to their target market. From what I read from Ascaloth's post, he doesn't completely disagree with this idea, however he would like to give KyoAni a little more weight to the fact that KyoAni makes faithful adaptations and that that becomes their main competitive advantage. So in the end it becomes a battle of how much weight each advantage has in relation to the other... right?
The way I see it, it all boils down to each individual's value judgements in the end. In this case, it's all down to whether the concept of making faithful and good anime adaptations of existing source material impresses an individual or not; if it does, the individual is likely to consider KyoAni a genius studio. If it doesn't, the individual is likely to see nothing special about KyoAni.
I believe that different people place different amounts of value on the concept of making good and faithful adaptations, so in the end one opinion is as valid as another. With that, I would like to express a wish that this debate be ended.
Um, yes? Because Junjou Romantica sold ridiculously well? To fujoshi? That buying segment you were just claiming weren't as good anime customers as men? And not to mention, I doubt men are the only ones buying things like Gundam 00? Still want to try to make unfounded claims?Unfound claims? North American distributors have said it themselves that men buy more anime overall (a key word you're ignoring). I believe current anime trends reflect the reality of the situation. Surprisingly, there have been more BL-esque shows this year than in recent years, but anime aimed primarily at men continue to dominate the market. Why? Money talks. Junjou Romantica is a successful anime series with its second season well on its way. But current trends show a different bigger picture, and it's only foolish to assess it differently on the basis of a single series. That's all what I've been arguing.
WanderingKnight
2008-09-03, 08:02
The general argument on the part of KyoAni is that they make "good and faithful adaptations". This merely gives credence to the "good" part.
So, do you honestly, with a hand over your heart, argue that most of the people who started watching Haruhi did it because it was a faithful adaptation?
Counterfactual history is often considered as merely speculative, and thus does not meet the standards of proper argument.
But you ignore what I mean by my "counterfactual history". What I actually mean is that, were Kyoani to make a perfect adaptation of something which doesn't cater to the Haruhi-watching fanbase, they wouldn't get the same amount of hype. Sheesh, do I have to explain every detail to you?
Please bring up a sufficient number of examples to bolster your otherwise baseless claim that adaptations are easy to do, and that because of this, many more adaptations are carried on faithfully than those which are not.
I don't need to bring up any examples because it is something already evident. Working with an existing foundation (already defined characters, plot, many times even defined character designs and overall artistic elements involved) is much easier than creating a foundation out of nothing. If you doubt that, well, I really don't know what to tell you.
It's not about examples, it's about using your head and having a bit of common sense.
That might be so, but even then, does that mean that the comments made by (game/novel) veterans of the sources that KyoAni made faithful adaptations of these works should be disregarded just because they are not the majority?
I do not say they should be disregarded. I say that the claim that the people who like Kyoani adaptations because they're faithful to the original without having even experienced the original is laughable. What they like, I insist, is the themes covered by the original work--not the fact that Kyoani's adaptation is good.
The way I see it, it all boils down to each individual's value judgements in the end
Of course! The thing is, I believe not everyone likes to admit that what they like is actually the fact that Kyoani is providing them with [personal opinion]yet another Key moeblob harem[/personal opinion], and to make their taste more "serious" they claim they're the bestzor studio because they make great adaptations.
In this case, it's all down to whether the concept of making faithful and good anime adaptations of existing source material impresses an individual or not; if it does, the individual is likely to consider KyoAni a genius studio.
I insist, who the hell could possibly care about faithfulness to the original source if they don't even have contact with it?. I understand that there might be some runaway dude who actually does, but come on. Let's be honest here.
I believe that different people place different amounts of value on the concept of making good and faithful adaptations, so in the end one opinion is as valid as another.
That's true. However, there's a difference between that and ignoring reality, which is something you passed over when dismissing my GITS Kyoani adaptation scenario.
Let's picture the following: A sunny and radiant morning, the executive head of Kyoani's parent company walks towards his work building like every other morning. He is politely bowed at by every employee that sees him pass through the company's campus. When he is reaching for the main doors of the building, a sudden bolt of lightning comes raining from the skies and fries him in the spot.
The whole company crazes.
For obvious reasons, the VP needs to take over the situation. He issues the required orders to keep his underlings calmed, and somehow they all get off this crisis in less than a week. Then, on the next week, a sudden realization comes to this young, hot-headed executive: They had to come up with an idea for Kyoani to animate, or the investors would have his head. Of course, the guy being a very very young rising star, he lacked enough experience to keep his head cool. So, he ponders over the issue the day before their meeting with the company's investors, and after being unable to figure anything out, he suddenly glances at his manga collection and sees a shiny, shiny title among all of his disordered books: Masamune Shirow's masterpiece, Ghost in the Shell.
Of course, in the poor state his mind was at the moment, he could do nothing more: With only an hour left for the imminent meeting that would seal his fate, he hastily grabs the 400-page tankoubon, gets his suit in place, and hurries off to work. The investors see him arrive at the meeting office, with his face hollow and his eyes red from desperation, and start feeling their fingers tickling. And so, in a rapture of sheer madness and grandeur, the young executive yells "This is our project!", and smashes the tankoubon against the table.
Now, let's digress for a moment, and allow me to make a simple wink of confidence towards the reader. Let's believe it. Let's believe that Kyoani's parent company's investors are insane enough to go through with this. In the real world, this young executive would obviously get fired instantly for giving such an idea, and the investors would take all their money off the studio. But this is WanderingKnight's Alternate Reality, and in this Alternate Reality, Kyoani's investors are insane.
Going back to our story, the investors are watching the young executive in awe. They whisper among each other, they trade gazes of amazement. They get up, one by one, and they express their grateful approval of the project in unison. Everyone pats the executive on the back as if he's had the greatest idea of the century.
And so, after millions of yens spent negotiating GITS' licensing terms, the project pulls through. Months of planning, careful production and masterpiece-quality artistic directing makes this GITS adaptation blow anything Production IG and Mamoru Oshii could throw at it. Masamune Shirow himself is invited to preview the series, and he cries tears of joy when he sees the results. And despite the very hard time I'm having trying to picture a Kyoani-eyed Major Kusanagi, Masamune declares, in a rapture of nostalgia and joy, that this adaptation is better than whatever he could have ever pulled off. It is basically the epitome of Ghost in the Shell. No one, no, nothing else could have made it better.
So now that we got to this point in the story, let me begin explaining why I'm doing what I'm doing. My point is the following: In this Alternate Reality where Kyoani's investors are insane and they decide to pull off a GITS adaptation, tell me (and do this with a hand over your heart): Do you really believe it would gather the same fanbase that Kyoani's Key adaptations have? Do you believe that people who have learned to appreciate simple-minded and rather empty (do I need to put "personal opinion" tags on that?) characters such as the ones you can find in Kanon or Clannad can effectively appreciate in full the complex subtleties of GITS' heavily political and philosophical plotline, the intricacies of its adult characters? Even more, do you believe those people can actually like it?
(And before you call me on this: Yes, I do believe they can, and I do know there are many who do. I'm not actually stating that liking more complex things is a sign of greater intelligence or of something inherently more positive--the complexity and intricacies of a work like GITS would simply not work in things like Kanon or Clannad, because they are things that definitely don't mix. I can like both and I'm sure many among you also can, but let's be realistic: not all people do. Many people, I'd be willing to say most people have somewhat restricted tastes. Some people can't stand Kanon-like series, some people can't stand GITS-like series).
So, do you really think too many of their original fanbase would do that? Or are they thinking about other things when they think "I like Kyoani!". They're probably liking the genre Kyoani touches (Key eroge adaptations), and don't really consider the fact that what is actually appealing to them are the themes contained within the original material, not the way Kyoani actually handled things--because, I insist, a sizeable part of the Kyoani fanbase hasn't even touched the material on which they've based their series.
(Kyoani adapts Ghost in the Shell by Masamune Shirow)
(the adaptation is hailed as more briliant then the two seasons and movie by Production I.G.)
--- story telling over ---
"Do you really believe it would gather the same fanbase that Kyoani's Key adaptations have?" WanderingKnight -- add namecalling and subtle insults --
"Yes, I do believe they can, and I do know there are many who do." WanderingKnight -- add generalisation and self-affirmed-conclusions --
At least this over-sized what-if statement is a more clear expression of your point of view then your previous negativistic answering. But it shows your completly blind (or perhaps ignorant) to what I (at least) see in Kyoani. What you believe in is the old standard school system of analysing and quantify-ing, where you take information given and add it up. To you it's important if the timeline is in order and subsets of information are important as well, since I'm sure you were spoonfed this way of thinking when reading poertry and novels; be they contemporanry or post-contemporary works.
Novels (of which there are a duzen flavors) Manga, poetry; as well as whatever else like a jurnalist's article, fall in your spectrum of understanding and mindset of analysing. However. Unlike manga is text with simple1 pictures, anime is a visual art. Analysing it as a text-book is stupid, like in a theater you do not care about the story (most of the time you already know it in fine detail) what you came to watch are the actors and their depth of expresion in the picture you already have drawn before you. Afterall, compared to the paged writing variation of the story, the anime medium is a relatively confined in space and somewhat in time as well.
Going back to your fantasy what-if, I would have it would be awesome and briliant, and I would watch it over the other three alternatives. This isn't a question of pity things like budged, who draws the better lines or, as a refrence to your own posts, who draws bigger eyes and the pretier face. This isn't a question of who's good and who's is bad, in such a situation they're all good from that perspective. The small difference which I think a lot of people draw a liking to is in character presentation. You're right, Kyoani's portrayal of the background sub-plots of political intrigue and (or) whathever other twisted thing your heart leans to would probably be vague - perhaps - even somewhat shallow. But that's just as well. For me most studios have this sickness, where given a manga to adapt they rip the story off it, create a bunch of origami versions of the characters and walk them through the "intresting" story like dogs.
Presented with the empty pure white canvas2 I see a character drawn, after which in almost every other studio with some exceptions and special cases, the next step would be scribbling around the character detailing ever useful and unncesary piece of information I want or don't want to know as they create that's figure's bio. Kyoani just does this completly different; there is no "this happend" that "came to be" or and psyho-analysis (reflection) of the characters state; all Kyoani characters do is introduce themselvs, and as the story flows that's all they keep on doing. The plot doesn't move characters in Haruhi and Lucky Star, the plot is contained within the characters. This sort of portrayal is more akin to theatrical presentation and as far as I'm is the superior product to the competition's accurate and precise blueprint view.
To put it simply. It's not that adaptations by Kyoani are so much better; who's to say what the budget will be or the circumstances (this show's cancelation is proof of that) But to some of us3 their adaptations to this medium are greater apretiated and more likable then others.
1. Designed to be simple and express emotions so as to avoid many words; illustrations in manga can be cast aside with not too much effort.
2. Anology to the begging of a show, watching it from the perspective of a first-time viewer.
3. There's no majority, minority or generalisation. Some look at it like that, just as Some see your point of view.
The implied Others may think something completly different or not care.
Ascaloth
2008-09-03, 08:41
So, do you honestly, with a hand over your heart, argue that most of the people who started watching Haruhi did it because it was a faithful adaptation?
Unless my memory has failed me entirely (which is likely in this case, given how much I want to forget this sham of a circular argument which seems to be going nowhere), I don't believe I've ever said that most of the people who started watching Haruhi did it because it was a faithful adaptation. I just believe that it just happened to be a very nice, and important, bonus for why they liked it as much as they did. Heck, the latter is why KyoAni got such a good reputation in the first place.
But you ignore what I mean by my "counterfactual history". What I actually mean is that, were Kyoani to make a perfect adaptation of something which doesn't cater to the Haruhi-watching fanbase, they wouldn't get the same amount of hype. Sheesh, do I have to explain every detail to you?
I believe someone else has already taken up your challenge, and come to the conclusion that yes, a KyoAni-adapted GITS would get an equivalent amount of hype even if it didn't get the support of the Haruhiists. In fact, it has already been done once before; if I remember correctly, that example was a slice-of-life comedy about an otaku girl and her friends called Lucky Star.
Go ahead and speculate some more in whatever way it takes to attempt to prove me wrong, but until it actually happens, you and I are just doing the same vain thing; speculating on counterfactual history.
I don't need to bring up any examples because it is something already evident. Working with an existing foundation (already defined characters, plot, many times even defined character designs and overall artistic elements involved) is much easier than creating a foundation out of nothing. If you doubt that, well, I really don't know what to tell you.
It's not about examples, it's about using your head and having a bit of common sense.
Aristotelian-era Petitio Principii (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question). Give me some recognized sources that claim the same thing, and I'll submit to this argument.
I do not say they should be disregarded. I say that the claim that the people who like Kyoani adaptations because they're faithful to the original without having even experienced the original is laughable. What they like, I insist, is the themes covered by the original work--not the fact that Kyoani's adaptation is good.
So let's see, because I like the themes covered by the original work, I am somehow unable to appreciate the fact that KyoAni displayed great skill in translating these same themes in their entirety, without which I might never have had the chance to be exposed to these same themes?
Of course! The thing is, I believe not everyone likes to admit that what they like is actually the fact that Kyoani is providing them with [personal opinion]yet another Key moeblob harem[/personal opinion], and to make their taste more "serious" they claim they're the bestzor studio because they make great adaptations.
Gatoh Shoji called. He disagrees with his work being described as "Key", "moeblob", or "harem". Tanigawa Nagaru and Yoshimizu Kagami called. They disagreed with the notion of their works being described as "Key" or "harem".
I insist, who the hell could possibly care about faithfulness to the original source if they don't even have contact with it?. I understand that there might be some runaway dude who actually does, but come on. Let's be honest here.
Argumentum ad nauseam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_nauseam). And speaking of which, you're speaking to such a guy here, who happens to be glad that KyoAni has the skill to translate the themes of the original works more or less intact in their adaptations, as opposed to what could have happened, like the Toei adaptations or the likes of the Tsukihime or Fate/Stay Night animes. Sure, perhaps I can't claim to care as much as the actual veterans....but I do give a shit. You want to run an actual survey before making that assertion again?
That's true. However, there's a difference between that and ignoring reality, which is something you passed over when dismissing my GITS Kyoani adaptation scenario.
Counterfactual history is not reality, it is merely speculation.
Unfound claims? North American distributors have said it themselves that men buy more anime overall (a key word you're ignoring).
Were they talking about the Japanese market or the American market? Because who buys what in the American market really doesn't have anything to do with the Japanese.
I believe current anime trends reflect the reality of the situation.
And, again, you'd be wrong. There have been more and more shoujo/ladies shows being animated now than ever before. I think you're unable to recognize market patterns because you only focus on what you are interested in.
Surprisingly, there have been more BL-esque shows this year than in recent years, but anime aimed primarily at men continue to dominate the market. Why? Money talks.
You're sooooo close. Why do you think there have been more BL-ish shows this year? Could it be...money? With the success of female-oriented shows like Nana and HachiKuro, the market has realized that female otaku are a viable market as well. Again, what you don't seem to get: Junjou Romantica outsold all but four of those "male-oriented" shows you claim do so well. All. But. Four.
You also don't understand the importance of JR. It's the first faithful television adaptation of an actual BL series, where the relationships are taken seriously (read: melodramatically) instead of being defused with "comedy". It also had a decent budget for a show of its type, and a very good director. What should this tell people? Fujoshi are a market segment you can get some serious cash from if you treat them with a little respect.
Junjou Romantica is a successful anime series with its second season well on its way. But current trends show a different bigger picture, and it's only foolish to assess it differently on the basis of a single series. That's all what I've been arguing.
How's this for a trend? Last Spring season had no less than thirteen shows adapated from sources aimed at women and girls. That's an unheard of number. Kyou Kara Maou--the show based on a series of girls' light novels--is poised to become the longest-running for-television light novel adaptation ever. (Saiunkoku has also reached a length Haruhi fans can only dream about.)
I'm sorry you're ignorant of how the market is really shifting--especially with studios like Bones and Gonzo getting in on adapting popular shoujo manga--but you should look into the trends before you decide to talk about who buys and why. There might be more shows aimed at men than women, but all trends show that anime companies are beginning to realize their money is as good as anyone else's. The rub comes from whether they do a shoddy, half-assed adaption like Gonzo, or if they pour love and care into the series like KyoAni might.
I'm sorry you're ignorant of how the market is really shifting--especially with studios like Bones and Gonzo getting in on adapting popular shoujo manga--but you should look into the trends before you decide to talk about who buys and why. There might be more shows aimed at men than women, but all trends show that anime companies are beginning to realize their money is as good as anyone else's. The rub comes from whether they do a shoddy, half-assed adaption like Gonzo, or if they pour love and care into the series like KyoAni might.Didn't I say companies are currently producing more shows aimed at women than before? So what exactly is your problem? The reality is this: this Fall season has around 25 TV anime titles lined up for men, 9 for women, around 8 children's/family titles, and about 5 titles with bipartisan appeal (Tytania, Kidou Senshi Gundam 00 2nd Season, Xam'd: Lost Memories, Casshern: Sins, Michiko to Hatchin). I think it's pretty clear what I want to say with this. It's not like female audiences have just started getting their fair share of anime this century. Shoujo titles have been around forever, Comic Market attendees are 57% women. Female audiences are getting more anime productions than before, but it's clear who the dominant consumer is, and I don't need a North American anime distributor to confirm that for me. Women just buy things other than anime DVDs, there's no shame in that.
Didn't I say companies are currently producing more shows aimed at women than before? So what exactly is your problem?
And didn't I just say that there were more shows being marketed at men than women? So what exactly is your problem with what I said? The idea that women are a buying force to be reckoned with?
Your whole argument hinges on the idea that it's not profitable to market something to women or to market something to both genders. This simply is not the case.
It's not like female audiences have just started getting their fair share of anime this century.
Actually, yeah, it's exactly like that.
Your whole argument hinges on the idea that it's not profitable to market something to women or to market something to both genders. This simply is not the case.I didn't say this, I said Kyoto Animation has a predominately male fanbase which they will not ignore, even with a title like Tonari no 801-chan. And before we lapse into a cyclic debate, I just want to point out these were just my predictions what KyoAni would've done. They are based on a very simple notion: Shift to where your consumer is.
Too bad Proto decided to delete his/her post. He summed it up pretty nicely.
I didn't say this, I said Kyoto Animation has a predominately male fanbase which they will not ignore, even with a title like Tonari no 801-chan.
And why would they be "ignoring" their fanbase by adapting Tonari no 801-chan? I don't think there's a company around that would gladly sit there and not try to expand their fanbase and profitability. Your scenario makes it into an either/or situation, and if you were just discussing KyoAni, there was no reason to go into the market at large, was there?
And why would they be "ignoring" their fanbase by adapting Tonari no 801-chan?I didn't say that. You know, your backlashes are getting pretty ridiculous.I don't think there's a company around that would gladly sit there and not try to expand their fanbase and profitability.I couldn't have said it better myself. This was the core argument of my first reply to you.Your scenario makes it into an either/or situation,No.and if you were just discussing KyoAni, there was no reason to go into the market at large, was there?I went into that direction to strengthen my argument. I don't know, is this type of obsessive argument abuse a typical fujoshi trait?
I think I've over-explained myself already, so I'm ending this discussion. Thank you for losing my interest.
(ignores the last several pages)
My first glance in this direction. As much as I liked SHnY... I think its kind of hilarious that Kyo-Ani keeps rolling along and has chosen this as their next venture. Tonari no 801-chan looks pretty funny (interesting choice for a next 4-koma after L*S :P ) but I'll have to read up on it more before commenting further.
I'm beginning to suspect that there may be some connective tie-in with the delay of the next SH light novel and any follow-on season that might happen.
It isn't really that I like Kyo-Ani especially - its more that they keep picking projects I turn out liking.
-AIR (liked the supernatural elements of the main story line; Key is "god-sama" in Japan for producing pearls of storyline amongst the fields of 'cliche eroge').
-Kanon (the first Kanon was my first collision with the way japanese literature easily combines the mundane with the supernatural, this version pulled out the stops)
-SHnY (hilarious collage of science-fiction and parody overlayed on romance; led me to read the light novels and realizing that KyoAni had done a good job with their insertions of current pop culture into the script; the light novels were already quite popular in Japan).
-Lucky*Star (always been a fan of short-form comedy, led me to read the manga before the series aired -- hence my relative unhappiness with aspects of the adaptation wherein they at times took L*S far afield from its material; again another title already well-known in Japan).
-Clannad (finally the creator of Megatokyo gets his long favorite game animated).
It is inevitable that they'll do something I'm uninterested in, but so far they're being very safe and conservative.
GuidoHunter_Toki
2008-09-03, 15:25
Well I don't know if its something I'll like, although it seems promising. ANyways if it Kyoto ANimation working on it I'll defenitely check it out.
DJ_RockmanX
2008-09-03, 15:38
(ignores the last several pages)
My first glance in this direction. As much as I liked SHnY... I think its kind of hilarious that Kyo-Ani keeps rolling along and has chosen this as their next venture. Tonari no 801-chan looks pretty funny (interesting choice for a next 4-koma after L*S :P ) but I'll have to read up on it more.
I'm beginning to suspect that there may be some connective tie-in with the delay of the next SH light novel and any follow-on season that might happen.
Well I don't know if its something I'll like, although it seems promising. ANyways if it Kyoto ANimation working on it I'll defenitely check it out.
Methinks you two skipped too many pages.
To remind Vexx and Guido, the show has been Cancelled (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2008-09-02/tonari-no-801-chan-creator-writes-about-canceled-anime).
Can a mod please close this thread. It seves no real purpose anymore.
Issue regarding the cancelation if worthy can be discussed elsewhere.
Errrrrr, yeah .... perhaps the OP should update their First Post to reflect this or as Cats suggests - close the thread with a cancellation note.
Meh --- it did look interesting. Self-reported to suggest closure with explanatory note.
LOL all of this because of my comment :D :heh:
I wasn't excited about an anime adaptation of this type of manga, but that doesn't mean I wasn't going to watch the anime.
I'm not a shoujo/josei manga reader, but I do watch anime based on these manga. I did watch: Cardcaptor Sakura, Kareshi Kanojo no Jijou, NANA, Honey and Clover, and others while fully knowing these are based on female oriented works.
In anime, if I like it, I watch it. That's it.
Even if KyoAni animated something that's outside the target audience I'm in, I'll still watch the anime. Though I would like KyoAni to stick with animating the stuff that I like, but I won't go frustrated or angry if they adapt stuff that's not aimed at me.
Anyway, that's everything I have to say about this matter :P
Those "paying customers" have already bought +200K of "801-chan" manga, which, is, again, aimed at men.
Oh O.O why is it aimed at men? I don't see it being mentioned by the publisher as being aimed at men, if possible can you supply a source mentioning this...
the publishers themselves tend to self-identify as "shounen", "shoujo", "josei", "seinen", and so on --- that's where the labeling happens. Many people mistakenly assume that the label tells you very much about the content.
All the label says is that the decision-makers at that publisher think this title might be appealing to that demographic ("boy", "girl", "young adult women", "young adult men"), not that it excludes anyone else. All the rest of the "o you're reading/watching the wrong stuff" is purely social bullshit from your peers.
"aimed at" and "selected because they think it will sell to" are different animals, imo.
In this case, the publisher is identified as being a publisher of material which they hope will sell to women.
(update: apparently, this publisher leans both ways?)
Oh O.O why is it aimed at men? I don't see it being mentioned by the publisher as being aimed at men, if possible can you supply a source mentioning this...
Actually, to be perfectly fair, I realized I had just come to that conclusion myself after what you posted--mainly based on reviews I'd read which seemed to be mostly guys--and did some digging. It's published by Ohzora--which specializes in publications aimed at women, but who does also publish manga aimed at guys--but since it didn't run in a magazine, it doesn't seem to have been labeled one way or the other.
So, my mistake. I apologize. It would probably be better to say the series is technically gender-neutral, leaning towards women.
(All the more reason for me to be bummed that it didn't work out)
Yeah, that's the reason I didn't mention it to be aimed at either when I mentioned the anime adaptation of it.
The manga was published under the comic imprint Next Comics, a comic imprint that's not aimed at a specific gender.
A proof by the publisher can be seen here:
http://www.ohzora.co.jp/company/summary/pdf/comics_books.pdf
The publisher does not consider the comic imprint "Next Comics" a female oriented one by seperating it and not including it under the "josei muke comics" as can be seen from the above link.
And so a non-genderized manga Q.E.D. (LOL :heh:)
edit:
Ahh also, the "Next Comics" comic imprint has only few manga (http://www.ohzora.co.jp/release/category/?format=comics&key=next) published under it, which is a pity for those looking for general aimed manga.
GuidoHunter_Toki
2008-09-03, 20:32
Oh cancalled, well thats too bad. Looked interesting enough.
Leo_Otaku
2008-09-03, 22:55
ughh I'm so not responding anymore....
I just like to see what Kyo-ani pulls out. I love their animation quality just like other animation studios bones, madhouse and so forth. I would have liked to see this show animated too. Maybe it will in the future who knows *shrug*
I think it's interesting that everyone is unable to find a gender label for it. Has anime really gotten to the point where it is dependent on being obviously labeled "for boys" or "for girls"? Can it not be "for everyone"? Does the absence of giant-eyed subservient moe girls and pantyshots or handsome knight-like men confuse us that much..?
801-chan was written by a man trying to understand a fujoshi, so its readers are divided between both men who are trying to understand what girls think and women who are curious how men view them. A peek into a disturbing-but-real part of otaku life makes it appealing.
Anyway, I just noticed the top of the 801chan blog..! Where it says "My girlfriend was a fujoshi. Every day brings new discoveries. " ... maybe I did not notice before, but it now says "We got married. And yet every day still brings new discoveries."
Could it be..?! Congratulations, Chibe-kun...!
I still hope that someone (preferably a studio with a less creepy army of whiny fanboys) will pick up 801chan some day. It has so much potential.
Until then, I guess we just have to be satisfied with the live action version...
nGCV9_3Uxgc
The interactions between 801-chan and her sister are funny. I wonder if she's fallen further down the dark path despite 801-chan's warnings? :P
Kinny Riddle
2008-09-04, 10:27
I only read from Random Curiosity about 801-chan being adapted as I do have the manga and it's hilarious. I find it a pity that it's now cancelled for no reason given. (Which I find absolutely absurd, at the very least, give a reason, no matter how stupid. Makes people wonder if this is how they do things in Japan?)
Besides 801-chan, there's another similar work called Fujoshi Kanojo (腐女子彼女), as the name implies, is about the chronicles of another guy with a hardcore yaoi fangirl as a girlfriend. It can all be found in his blog (http://pentabutabu.blog35.fc2.com/), which has been adapted into two books and currently serialized as a manga.
As a guy, I really enjoyed reading 801-chan and Fujoshi Kanojo and delving into the "eccentricities" and imaginations of yaoi fangirls you'd never thought possible. So I don't see what's wrong with an anime like this one. If they can make the daily life of an otaku girl and her friends (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucky_Star_(manga)) so much fun, I don't see why 801-chan wouldn't create the same impact for both guys and ladies.
Great pity indeed.
So I don't see what's wrong with an anime like this one. If they can make the daily life of an otaku girl and her friends (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucky_Star_(manga)) so much fun, I don't see why 801-chan wouldn't create the same impact for both guys and ladies.
The term hardcore yaoi fangirl catches the eye, which you are not the first to use in this thread.
Don't know of- and haven't even layed eyes on a page of it, but that sort of description may be a hint as to why.
Compared to otaku girl the term yaoi girl let alone the extra hardcore prefix are completely alien. "otaku girl" doesn't exactly mean yuri girl or hentai girl so even though many have said Tonari no 801-chan would be the polar oposit, from that sort of wording it sure doesn't sound like it.
(of course I'm only implying the first glance difference in perspective on it)
Besides 801-chan, there's another similar work called Fujoshi Kanojo (腐女子彼女), as the name implies, is about the chronicles of another guy with a hardcore yaoi fangirl as a girlfriend. It can all be found in his blog (http://pentabutabu.blog35.fc2.com/), which has been adapted into two books and currently serialized as a manga.
Ooh, according to the fujoshi kanojo blog, the author of that one is marrying his girlfriend too..! I guess in the end otaku + fujoshi + understanding = happiness?
The term hardcore yaoi fangirl catches the eye, which you are not the first to use in this thread.
Don't know of- and haven't even layed eyes on a page of it, but that sort of description may be a hint as to why.
Compared to otaku girl the term yaoi girl let alone the extra hardcore prefix are completely alien. "otaku girl" doesn't exactly mean yuri girl or hentai girl so even though many have said Tonari no 801-chan would be the polar oposit, from that sort of wording it sure doesn't sound like it.
(of course I'm only implying the first glance difference in perspective on it)
Otaku girl and yaoi girl often overlap, so I don't see how they are so different. People often picture fujoshi as the fat scary girls with yaoi paddles at cons, but that's rarely the case. Just imagine an otaku who has figures and posters and other goods of shows/games with pretty boys instead of magical girls and eroge.
A lot of anime fans have already had yaoi fangirl exposure in Zetsubou Sensei's Harumi. A whole series about a character like her (except less crazy) I wouldn't mind, so the sudden cancellation and air of mystery about it has me intrigued as to why and if it can be uncancelled.
But like Haruhi in R1, online fan enthusiasm does not equal offline sales. This just didn't have the potential in R1. It's easy to see why it would be cancelled.
KyoAni fans in R2 prob weren't going to give them their wallets and credit cards for this either. Gotta appease those fans of Clannad, Haruhi and Lucky Star.
SZS isn't licensed in R1 in any form so the "yaoi fangirl in anime" exposure hasn't occured yet in R1. The yaoi parody featured in Ouran hasn't been officially released here yet either.
But like Haruhi in R1, online fan enthusiasm does not equal offline sales. This just didn't have the potential in R1. It's easy to see why it would be cancelled.
KyoAni fans in R2 prob weren't going to give them their wallets and credit cards for this either. Gotta appease those fans of Clannad, Haruhi and Lucky Star.
SZS isn't licensed in R1 in any form so the "yaoi fangirl in anime" exposure hasn't occured yet in R1. The yaoi parody featured in Ouran hasn't been officially released here yet either.
Since when does KyoAni care about R1? What is made into an anime is usually decided by the popularity of the original work; the sales of 801chan's manga brought the decision. They think of their main audience first.
And 801-chan is all over the place in Japan right now so I highly doubt there is a shortage of fans wanting to pay for it. I've lost count of all the places where I saw an 801chan scribbled onto a sign, dangling from someone's bag, plastered all over a bookstore, etched into a map, added to a parody, appearing at doujinshi events as a gag, etc etc...
As someone mentioned before, 801chan has everything Lucky Star does except without the moe factor and with the y-word that has people with a weird phobia not wanting to watch it.
Kaioshin Sama
2008-09-05, 00:36
It isn't really that I like Kyo-Ani especially - its more that they keep picking projects I turn out liking.
What an interesting coincidence, that's the same reason I find interest in this other company and their shows that people have accused me of being a fanboy of. Lever de Soleil or something like that. :cool:
Speaking of which:
The average anime company would have made a rough approximation of the original statue, as they wouldn't bother to replicate every microscopic detail. They wouldn't even bother to talk to the original maker of the statuette. You would be lucky, sometimes, if the final product even remotely resembled the original.
While KyoAni would have the original artist visit the site of the construction weekly, inquire about the sketches the artist made back before creating the ceramic, and ask if the artist wanted any improvements made to his specifications.
That's what makes KyoAni different; they care about the fact that they are shaping something that artistically belonged to someone-else.
No one else does this; not any other studio. Elsewhere, it happens occasionally for random projects, but KyoAni is the only Studio to do this all the time.
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/6693/up26913lc3.jpg
Since when does KyoAni care about R1? What is made into an anime is usually decided by the popularity of the original work; the sales of 801chan's manga brought the decision. They think of their main audience first.
R1 is classified to be in the same market now as R2. So Japan cares about us too now. And R1 studios have to bid on these titles within the first 2 episodes. So maybe no R1 studio that they wanted showed any interest in the title during production and they canned it.
The "y" genre over here is really only supported by one distributor, Media Blasters. It's usually subbed and at bargain prices, not something that KyoAni is going to want because then they don't receive as much for their hard work either.
Vallen Chaos Valiant
2008-09-05, 05:36
No one else does this eh....then I guess this picture comparison of areas in the real Maihama and areas in Zegapain's Maihama don't exist?
That has nothing to do with what I was talking about. I am talking about adaptations that are made with heavy author participation, which is extremely rare.
While what you showed was merely the use of existing RL locations for anime backgrounds. This is done so regularly by nearly all anime studios that it's not relevant to the discussion.
Everything from Megazone 23, Higurashi, Saikano, to the original Tenchi Muyo OVA, did this. Background is just background; it is what the original author wanted to achieve that determine if the story is an accurate adaptation or not.
kari-no-sugata
2008-09-05, 08:10
I would express this more as a matter of expectations.
In my case, I'm always rather apprehensive when a manga I like is turned into an anime. Generally, I find it hard to enjoy the anime version. There can be all sorts of reasons, but it's mostly about the feeling of the characters or the execution of critical scenes. I often have the thought that with just some slight changes, the anime version could have been much better. It basically feels like they didn't really get the original. Converting a story between mediums is hard, but that shouldn't be an excuse to short-change the original work. After all, generally the only reason manga get converted is because the original is a success - if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Now, there are plenty of examples of manga (or other mediums) being converted to anime well enough that fans of the original are happy, though percentage-wise they would be rare. There's even cases where the anime version can exceed the original. (Note, I'm talking about my own impressions here. There's plenty of people who tend to prefer the anime version)
However, the critical difference to me is that KyoAni is the only studio where I would expect them to meet such expectations - I would expect to enjoy the anime version as much as the original. I can't say the same for any other studio. It's KyoAni's existing track record that brings out this expectation.
R1 is classified to be in the same market now as R2. So Japan cares about us too now. And R1 studios have to bid on these titles within the first 2 episodes. So maybe no R1 studio that they wanted showed any interest in the title during production and they canned it.
The "y" genre over here is really only supported by one distributor, Media Blasters. It's usually subbed and at bargain prices, not something that KyoAni is going to want because then they don't receive as much for their hard work either.
On what grounds do you say that the R1 market is the same as the R2 now?
And look at the latest "y" TV anime that was licensed for R1 distribution: Junjou Romantica. It was licensed while it was still airing in Japan, which is rare for a 13 episode series (and is a top-selling DVD in Japan right now). Who was it licensed by? Kadokawa USA. What else have they licensed? Lucky Star, The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya, and Fullmetal Panic. In other words, all KyoAni titles. So to assume that 801-chan was canceled because someone was worried about R1 sales of anything related to the genre would be untrue (though I still stand by my opinion that they don't care in the first place). And if it hasn't become clear yet, 801chan isn't a yaoi series, it's a slice-of-life series about an otaku and his otaku/fujoshi girlfriend.
Kinny Riddle
2008-09-05, 09:56
Ooh, according to the fujoshi kanojo blog, the author of that one is marrying his girlfriend too..! I guess in the end otaku + fujoshi + understanding = happiness?
Unlike the author of 801-chan, the blog master of Fujoshi Kanojo is more of a "mainstream" guy. His knowledge of anime prior to meeting Y-Ko (his girlfriend) are limited to Gundam Seed Destiny and some World Masterpiece Theatre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Masterpiece_Theater) titles in the 1980s.
It's only after getting on with Y-Ko that his knowledge develops a bit, though it's all "corrupted" by Y-Ko. For example, upon watching Evangelion for the first time, his first impression of Shinji was "Man, he's so uke." A few seconds passed before he realized to his horror how corrupted his mind has become. :heh:
I'm considering translating this fun blog on behalf of Baka-Tsuki into English, so stay tuned.
I'm considering translating this fun blog on behalf of Baka-Tsuki into English, so stay tuned.You mean Fujoshi Kanojo? If that's the case, don't bother. Someone has already posted a good bit of translations in the manga forum.
Kinny Riddle
2008-09-05, 12:41
You mean Fujoshi Kanojo? If that's the case, don't bother. Someone has already posted a good bit of translations in the manga forum.
Ah, yes, thanks for the tip.
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=62208&highlight=fujoshi+kanojo
It's only a portion, and it's not been updated for nearly 6 months. I'll get in touch in cicido who started this, as I may offer to get a place to host her contribution and offer more myself. (I have the complete two volumes).
On what grounds do you say that the R1 market is the same as the R2 now?
Well they're both in Region A (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc#Region_codes), but beyond that I don't see much evidence of a unified market - release date parity and multi-language support would be more convincing.
And look at the latest "y" TV anime that was licensed for R1 distribution: Junjou Romantica. It was licensed while it was still airing in Japan, which is rare for a 13 episode series (and is a top-selling DVD in Japan right now). Who was it licensed by? Kadokawa USA. What else have they licensed? Lucky Star, The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya, and Fullmetal Panic. In other words, all KyoAni titles. So to assume that 801-chan was canceled because someone was worried about R1 sales of anything related to the genre would be untrue (though I still stand by my opinion that they don't care in the first place). And if it hasn't become clear yet, 801chan isn't a yaoi series, it's a slice-of-life series about an otaku and his otaku/fujoshi girlfriend.
Junjou Romantica (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/anime.php?id=8922) isn't licensed in R1 yet. Kadokawa USA is acting like Shopro in this matter and is looking for an R1 distributor for this. They just exercized their rights to request a takedown of the fansubs. No distributor has come forward yet. The only one that would license this in R1 is Media Blasters.
ZODDGUTS
2009-06-19, 00:43
It's back from the dead and guess who will be part of the production? :p
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2009-06-19/tonari-no-801-chan-anime-short-green-lit
Yutaka Yamamoto with A-1 Pictures. Wonder how Kyoani feels about this.
He posted on he's blog "I avenge myself." :heh:
http://wind.ap.teacup.com/kanku1974/41.html
Opening theme tryouts at Niconico Douga:
http://anime-ch.nicovideo.jp/static/801
It's back from the dead and guess who will be part of the production? :p
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2009-06-19/tonari-no-801-chan-anime-short-green-lit
Yutaka Yamamoto with A-1 Pictures. Wonder how Kyoani feels about this.
He posted on he's blog "I avenge myself." :heh:
http://wind.ap.teacup.com/kanku1974/41.html
Opening theme tryouts at Niconico Douga:
http://anime-ch.nicovideo.jp/static/801
Talk about a burning grudge. :confused: Ever since Kannagi, he has been posting a lot of bitter quips. Whatever happened between him and the KyoAni management better be epic, or he'll come off as sounding very villainous.
Like they cooked his carp and fed it to him or something.
Natch.
He went from being the golden boy who directed, story boarded and wrote scripts for episodes of Air, Haré+Guu, Kanon 2006 and Haruhi (as well being behind the Haruhi ED and Lucky Star OP crazes) to being someone who according to KyoAni had not reached the level of an animation director. I don't blame him for being bitter, since KyoAni insulted him with that reason for firing him. I'm sure it was politically based considering his prior work, who left KyoAni to join him at Ordet and who still works with him who are still employed by KyoAni... His Kannagi was great and I hope he gets Key's Angel Beats as well and since that's an ANIPLEX production there's a chance of that.
MeoTwister5
2009-06-19, 04:14
If this ends up sucking in his hands at a different studio, then it'll just add more believable reasons as to why KyotoAni sacked him.
Operative term bing "If".
It's a 90 second OP he's doing... and his OP/ED work speaks for itself... heck I just saw on ANN that he did the second OP for SHANA II and that was great. His Kannagi was better directed than the last two KyoAni series.. lol Munto.. and I'll rank Ep 12 of Haruhi (School Festival Ep, God Knows) as one of the best of that series.
MeoTwister5
2009-06-19, 04:27
Well while there's no doubt of his great ability in animation choreography.... Kannagi was great because of great voice talent and characterization, not necessarily from great directing. He's proven himself fully capable of great OPs and EDs but not yet making a series shine through excellent directing, so I honestly don't get much of the hype of him being given the helm of another show. KyotoAni probably had a bit of a point: Sure he blows the mind with his OP and ED animations, but what about directing a full series? Something tells me his rabid success with those things got to his head too much that it pissed off some head honchos.
Directing a series and directing it's OP/ED are two different things.
It's not like the guy is directing the OVA. It's just the OP animation. I don't see the big deal here.
Kaioshin Sama
2009-06-19, 05:09
He went from being the golden boy who directed, story boarded and wrote scripts for episodes of Air, Haré+Guu, Kanon 2006 and Haruhi (as well being behind the Haruhi ED and Lucky Star OP crazes) to being someone who according to KyoAni had not reached the level of an animation director. I don't blame him for being bitter, since KyoAni insulted him with that reason for firing him. I'm sure it was politically based considering his prior work, who left KyoAni to join him at Ordet and who still works with him who are still employed by KyoAni... His Kannagi was great and I hope he gets Key's Angel Beats as well and since that's an ANIPLEX production there's a chance of that.
And if you ask me they made a bad call in letting him go as ever since then Kyoani shows have suffered noticeably in terms of style and oomph on a number of levels (especially in the opening/ending department which has now mostly just fallen into repeating the same name under the character cutout eroge style bits with half-assed attempts to capture a bit of Yamamoto's dance style thematics). He brought something unique to the table and you can tell he had an imagination and ideas, but I can bet that he probably had a Tominoesque flair to his personality that they didn't want to deal with or indulge. Should have worked it out instead.......he maybe could have even taken the reins of K-On and played to his strengths in making that more then it ended up being. It would have been one of those matches made in heaven, but alas twas' not to be.
It's not like the guy is directing the OVA. It's just the OP animation. I don't see the big deal here.
Well that's his big schtick right, creating catchy opening sequences? Makes sense.
Oi oi I thought people hated big schticks? ;p
PS Yamakan's such a tease
And if you ask me they made a bad call in letting him go as ever since then Kyoani shows have suffered noticeably in terms of style and oomph on a number of levels (especially in the opening/ending department which has now mostly just fallen into repeating the same name under the character cutout eroge style bits with half-assed attempts to capture a bit of Yamamoto's dance style thematics). He brought something unique to the table and you can tell he had an imagination and ideas, but I can bet that he probably had a Tominoesque flair to his personality that they didn't want to deal with or indulge. Should have worked it out instead.......he maybe could have even taken the reins of K-On and played to his strengths in making that more then it ended up being. It would have been one of those matches made in heaven, but alas twas' not to be.
Yeah I have to agree that KyoAni is less without him, though if he was arguing all the time with say Tatsuya Ishihara behind the scenes than it was probably better for their chemistry as a studio to remove him. Still... I know I'll rather see Yamakan behind the helm of a KyoAni series than Yoshiji Kigami or Hisako Yamada.
Well while there's no doubt of his great ability in animation choreography.... Kannagi was great because of great voice talent and characterization, not necessarily from great directing.
and I wonder who is supposed to direct the voice acting and create the characterization? nope, not the director, methinks. :rolleyes:
I will still watch anything this guy does. what he has so far done has always been very enjoyable, interesting and unique (at least for me). and seeing that he is going to do the OP (and hopefully direct the OVA), should we expect another dancing number? :heh:
MeoTwister5
2009-06-19, 07:07
Pretty sure the Casting people look for the voice talents and the characterization due to the writing of the manga creator.:rolleyes::rolleyes:
Direct the voice talent =! look for voice talent. And don't ignore that he directed two anime original episodes and added in a lot of scenes throughout that fit the manga. I'll say he's more talented than many still at Kyo Ani :p Seriously what K-ON! episode is better directed than the God Knows Ep of Haruhi?
MeoTwister5
2009-06-19, 07:24
Sigh.
I'm not dissing the fact that he's a fantastic animation choreographer because he is, I'm just questioning all the hype he's getting for directing a few great OPs and EDs and having some directing and writing credits for a few shows. It's not as if he's directed a fantastic series that has caused the collective asplosions of all our dongs, and until that time comes where I must swallow my pride and build shrine to his greatness, I'm not buying into the hype.
Unless of course not buying into the hype is a sin.... no I'll consider it my sin for the day.
ZODDGUTS
2009-06-19, 09:13
Hype or not he did a great job with Kannagi. So I'm looking forward to more of he's projects. Supposely he's doing/directing Angel Beats hopefully that's true.
typhonsentra
2009-06-19, 09:31
Kinda glad this was saved, I was very curious about it from it's description.
Sigh.
Yes sigh indeed.
I'm not dissing the fact that he's a fantastic animation choreographer because he is
And noone is saying you are so why do you continually bring this up for no reason?
I'm just questioning all the hype he's getting for directing a few great OPs and EDs and having some directing and writing credits for a few shows.
Because said shows he's directed and wrote for have been well received maybe :rolleyes: Generally if you do well and standout you build hype, that's how it works!
It's not as if he's directed a fantastic series that has caused the collective asplosions of all our dongs, and until that time comes where I must swallow my pride and build shrine to his greatness, I'm not buying into the hype.
What Haruhi doesn't count now? Let me list what he did for Haruhi...
Series Production Director
Episode Director for 1, 12 & ED
Script for Episodes 1, 3, 5 & 12
Story board for Episodes 1, 9, 12 & ED
KyoAni went out of their way to name him Series Production Director when no such role exists, downplay his contribution all you want like you did with Kannagi, facts show otherwise :rolleyes:
Instead of whining and than mentioning "I've never said he's a bad animation choreographer" why don't you tell us who should be getting the hype.... who exactly is better than him? It's not like people are saying he's better than Mamoru Hosoda ffs..
Guardian Enzo
2009-06-19, 10:47
Fact is, Kannagi was a better series than either Haruhi or LS, both of which are phenomenally overrated. KyoAni are the ones who made a mistake in all this.
I'm not dissing the fact that he's a fantastic animation choreographer because he is, I'm just questioning all the hype he's getting for directing a few great OPs and EDs and having some directing and writing credits for a few shows.
eh, that's not the impression I was getting from your initial (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=2460653&postcount=196) comments (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=2460667&postcount=198). Kannagi was a success in my eyes and it proved that Yamakan was more than a capable director. He improved upon different aspects of the manga and successfully translated Kannagi to the anime medium, making the show stand by its own merits, in the form of its already rich characters or through the always entertaining comedy---add also the opening sequence, which he is going to do for yaoi-chan.
This is getting slightly off-topic, methinks, but I don't see much hype surrounding Yamakan compared to the hype you usually see in Kyoani-related shows. He is a director whose latest work I enjoyed the most in the last 8 months, so it is of no surprise if I'm looking forward to whatever he is going to do next, even if it's just an opening. Perhaps, I'm not the only who thinks in this way... :heh:
M.Marangio
2009-06-19, 11:05
This gigazine (http://en.gigazine.net/index.php?/news/comments/20090619_tonari_no_801_chan/) article has a staff list:
Staffs:
Original Comic：Ajiko Kojima("Tonari no 801-chan", Ozora Shuppan)
Character Drafts: Misonobashi 801 Shotengai Shinko Kumiai / Haruna
Director: Yutaka Yamamoto("Kannagi", ED animation of "Haruhi Suzumiya", OP animation of "Lucky Star")
Character Designs: Satoshi Kadowaki
Color Composition: Kazuko Nakajima
Cinematographer: Gaku Hirooka
Music Production: Slowcurve
Sounde Producer: Masatoshi Nishimura(FENCE OF DEFENCE)
OP song composed and edited by A-bee("Lucky Star", "Sgt. Frog") Lyrics: Karayabon
Planning and Produce: Ozora Shuppan 1st. Editorial Office / Try-o
Special Cooperation: Ordet
Production: A-1 Picture("Big Windup!", "Kannagi")
This is getting slightly off-topic, methinks, but I don't see much hype surrounding Yamakan compared to the hype you usually see in Kyoani-related shows.
With Yamamoto, the hype is more centered on the individual than his works. He's a particularly outspoken guy with a hefty ego, so that really stands out.
By and large, Kyoto Animation's staff have remained relatively low profile (public attention is on the various series they release as well as the company as a whole), which is typical of Japanese corporate culture.
Talk about a burning grudge. Ever since Kannagi, he has been posting a lot of bitter quips. Whatever happened between him and the KyoAni management better be epic, or he'll come off as sounding very villainous.
I'm sure there are plenty of other grudges within the industry. It's just that few air their dirty laundry in public.
DragoonKain3
2009-06-19, 11:58
Quite honestly, Haruhi's new episodes are as much great as Haruhi's old episodes, barring awesome the old ED sequence aside (which is still mindblowingly awesome). Which makes me question exactly how much did he bring to the table.
And unlike other people here, I particularly don't have a high opinion of Yamakan's Kannagi, despite enjoying it immensely. As a highly esteemed poster has said, your enjoyment of that show rests almost entirely how much you like a particular character (Nagi), rather than the show actually being 'good'.
I'm not saying Yamakan is bad by any means, as he definitely improved in Kannagi from his shortcomings in the first few eps of LS. But in my eyes, he's really nothing to write home about, good or bad, let alone even come close to people IMO like, say Kenichi Kasai.
That said, I'm still glad 801-chan is still being animated, as I highly enjoyed the live-action version of it. About time we get an anime based on the typical female otaku, rather than the idealized female otaku we see in such shows such as Nogizaka Haruka no Himitsu and the like.
blitz1/2
2009-06-19, 15:20
He went from being the golden boy who directed, story boarded and wrote scripts for episodes of Air, Haré+Guu, Kanon 2006 and Haruhi (as well being behind the Haruhi ED and Lucky Star OP crazes) to being someone who according to KyoAni had not reached the level of an animation director. I don't blame him for being bitter, since KyoAni insulted him with that reason for firing him. I'm sure it was politically based considering his prior work, who left KyoAni to join him at Ordet and who still works with him who are still employed by KyoAni... His Kannagi was great and I hope he gets Key's Angel Beats as well and since that's an ANIPLEX production there's a chance of that.
meh, at least another company is respecting him for that fact. Besides, KyoAni is getting overrated, let another take the pitch.
Kaisos Erranon
2009-06-19, 15:36
I do enjoy how these topic inevitably turn into KyoAni hate fests, simply because there's nowhere else on the internet one can get away with that.
Sigh...
Anyway, if 801-chan is turned into an anime I'll certainly watch it. I'd like to see how A-1 does with material like this anyway.
This news once again further solidifies my affection for A1.
They're not perfect--I'm not a big fan of what they did to Black Butler--but at least they choose series that, while still run in male-oriented publications, have a wider appeal to both genders than what KyoAni usually chooses to adapt. I've pretty much given up ever seeing KyoAni break out of their little niche, so it's nice to see A1 picking up the slack. (I hope they get back to more Oofuri soon! I know there's enough to make a second season at this point)
This news once again further solidifies my affection for A1.
They're not perfect--I'm not a big fan of what they did to Black Butler--but at least they choose series that, while still run in male-oriented publications, have a wider appeal to both genders than what KyoAni usually chooses to adapt. I've pretty much given up ever seeing KyoAni break out of their little niche, so it's nice to see A1 picking up the slack. (I hope they get back to more Oofuri soon! I know there's enough to make a second season at this point)
I believe this adaptation is less about A1 expanding into different genres than it is about Yamakan one-upping KyoAni, tbh. :heh:
An interesting turn of events here.
I thoroughly enjoyed Kannagi so Yamakan certainly has the skills but I really think he should let this grudge against Kyoani go, whether justified or not, it just comes across a bit childish and petty. It would have been more classy to have just let his future works do the talking and let Kyoani rue the fact they fired him.
Kaioshin Sama
2009-06-19, 17:13
Sigh.
I'm not dissing the fact that he's a fantastic animation choreographer because he is, I'm just questioning all the hype he's getting for directing a few great OPs and EDs and having some directing and writing credits for a few shows. It's not as if he's directed a fantastic series that has caused the collective asplosions of all our dongs, and until that time comes where I must swallow my pride and build shrine to his greatness, I'm not buying into the hype.
Unless of course not buying into the hype is a sin.... no I'll consider it my sin for the day.
Alright, look at it this way, consider what drew most people's attention to Haruhi when it was still a no name. Mention the Haruhi anime to someone and what is the first thing they tend to talk about. Is it the ending video? Is it God Knows? What is the primary source of fan generated content when it comes to the series? Give it a look and see what you find.
Obviously he didn't direct Thriller or Smooth Criminal, I don't think anybody is holding him up to that level, but he contributed a lot to the success of the shows he participated in. If not through the most direct of channels, at least through the window of viral marketing/video potential.
I'm not saying Yamakan is bad by any means, as he definitely improved in Kannagi from his shortcomings in the first few eps of LS. But in my eyes, he's really nothing to write home about, good or bad, let alone even come close to people IMO like, say Kenichi Kasai.
No one is saying he's on Kasai's level... seriously why even mention him? It's like talking about college basketball players about to get drafted and than going "he's not even close to Kobe!!". Though I have to say Yamakan like Kasai is great at adapting things... though I would hope Yamakan doesn't drop the ball as bad as Kasai did in Kimikiss... Anyway the discussion is on whether he's a good director or not, his work prior to LS and after KyoAni says yes, Lucky Star, KyoAni and their fanboys so no. I'll say the yes outweighs the other...
If not through the most direct of channels, at least through the window of viral marketing/video potential.
And I dare say he's done it again with this open audition on Nico for the Theme song.
musume_no_hoshi
2009-06-19, 17:58
I'll like to see a fujoshi singing the opening, just because...it would be interesting. Lately I just got into the whole fujoshi thing...my...if they made this short well. It could very well get a whole series, Hetalia proved fujoshi buying power is pretty good if you make the right show.
So he's going to direct the whole show, like the gigazine quote said? I'll see how well he'll do with a 4-koma, do it in the live action movie style. I'll be more then happy. I'll love to see 'suits' jokes.
DragoonKain3
2009-06-19, 18:05
No one is saying he's on Kasai's level... seriously why even mention him?
You gotta be kidding. You answered your own question with this...
'Anyway the discussion is on whether he's a good director or not'
Really, likening Kasai to Kobe is highly misleading, at least to me. For me at least, Miyazaki is 'Kobe'... in the 'great' section. Kasai on the otherhand is several notches below, like say, Chris Bosh, who is in the 'good' section. All I'm saying Yamakan ain't there yet... second line at worst, one of the easily forgotten starters at best.
his work prior and after KyoAni says yes, Lucky Star, KyoAni and their fanboys so no. I'll say the yes outweighs the other...
And therein lies the crux of the problem. The bolded part really is subjective, as a lot of people (me included) does not really think 'yes' as it was a 'so-so' affair.
Really now, no one is saying that Yamakan is a bad director. Just that while he's not bad, he aint THAT good either. In other words, nothing to write home about, which was my main point.
I thoroughly enjoyed Kannagi so Yamakan certainly has the skills but I really think he should let this grudge against Kyoani go, whether justified or not, it just comes across a bit childish and petty. It would have been more classy to have just let his future works do the talking and let Kyoani rue the fact they fired him.
There is no grudge here. This entire "bitter" and "grudge" and whatever else you want to call it is entirely the creation of western readers. (Also, his blog title entry is stolen straight from the Jigoku Shoujo website iirc.)
I'll like to see a fujoshi singing the opening, just because...it would be interesting.Nico appears to be hoping that fujoshi freedom group バ行の腐女子 (http://dic.nicovideo.jp/a/%E3%83%90%E8%A1%8C%E3%81%AE%E8%85%90%E5%A5%B3%E5%A D%90) enters.
There is no grudge here. This entire "bitter" and "grudge" and whatever else you want to call it is entirely the creation of western readers. (Also, his blog title entry is stolen straight from the Jigoku Shoujo website iirc.)
Nico appears to be hoping that fujoshi freedom group バ行の腐女子 (http://dic.nicovideo.jp/a/%E3%83%90%E8%A1%8C%E3%81%AE%E8%85%90%E5%A5%B3%E5%A D%90) enters.
Really? Wasn't there also that episode of Kannagi where he put himself in and took a dig? Although admittedly I found it quite amusing at the time. :heh:
Fujoshi freedom group are pretty awesome, some of their song remixes are hilarious. :p
M.Marangio
2009-07-18, 04:42
Nico appears to be hoping that fujoshi freedom group バ行の腐女子 (http://dic.nicovideo.jp/a/%E3%83%90%E8%A1%8C%E3%81%AE%E8%85%90%E5%A5%B3%E5%A D%90) enters.
They entered and won. The opening will be titled "BL-IN ブラック・イン" (Black in) and will be released on CD on September 10.
Link: http://journal.mycom.co.jp/news/2009/07/17/076/index.html
musume_no_hoshi
2009-07-18, 05:05
Is it more or less 'as expected'? Alot of Nico Nico users/people/whateveryouliketocallthem are getting proper commerical release. Like all those Miku albums and Ryo/Supercell actually writing a song for Bakemonogatari.
I hope they're making an OAD to test whether a TV series is popular enough. Hetalia and Junjou Romantica shows that fujoshi buying power is pretty strong, even if slightly weaker then otakus (as in moe-fanboys).
M.Marangio
2009-08-19, 19:14
More informations on the CD and the special edition of the fourth manga volume:
http://journal.mycom.co.jp/news/2009/08/20/004/index.html
typhonsentra
2009-08-19, 22:01
90 second animation eh? Sad this won't get a bigger release, even if I was disappointed when KyoAni first announced it it sounded interesting to me.
Kaoru Chujo
2009-08-21, 23:22
Fact is, Kannagi was a better series than either Haruhi or LS, both of which are phenomenally overrated. KyoAni are the ones who made a mistake in all this.I like Yamakan, too, and I think KyoAni are indeed the ones who made the mistake, but my opinion is that Haruhi was a masterpiece (partly due to Yamakan), Kannagi was very good, and LS was close.
I'm eager to see anything Yamakan does, but he hasn't done enough as a director on his own for me to form a judgment either way on whether he's fair, good, or great. I think he's still growing.
I do like the episodes of Haruhi he did, and I like the first four eps of Lucky Star better than the rest, since they are plainer and less conventional. And Kannagi was pretty good. I think he has a fine touch with comedy. But perhaps Hanazawa Kana was not the right choice. And the show did seem to me to lose steam after a while.
But he is great as a maker of OP/ED animations: Haruhi ED, Lucky Star OP, Kannagi OP and ED. He has the knack of making the music and animation work together and make an impression. So his piece for this title is something I think we're justified in expecting good things from. And probably, as Kaioshin says, something viral.
Personally, I think he may have "the touch," but we'll see when he gets some more shows. If he does.
@bayoab -- What do you know that makes you think there is no grudge? He has made some ironic comments, and his coming out and apologizing for Endless Eight was fairly aggressive. If I thought I had done a decent job and my boss demoted me and said publicly I wasn't up to my job, I think I'd hold a grudge. I mean, he did subsequently quit. But like I say, you may know something I don't.
Kaioshin Sama
2009-08-22, 03:21
Personally, I think he may have "the touch," but we'll see when he gets some more shows. If he does.
But does he have THE POWER! When all hell's breaking lose can he indeed ride in the eye of the storm?
@bayoab -- What do you know that makes you think there is no grudge? He has made some ironic comments, and his coming out and apologizing for Endless Eight was fairly aggressive. If I thought I had done a decent job and my boss demoted me and said publicly I wasn't up to my job, I think I'd hold a grudge. I mean, he did subsequently quit. But like I say, you may know something I don't.
The Yamakan isn't human, he has no emotions!
Fact is, Kannagi was a better series than either Haruhi or LS, both of which are phenomenally overrated. KyoAni are the ones who made a mistake in all this.
As much as I normally respect your opinions and POV's, this time you are trying to pass a very personal POV as a fact, which doesn't seem like very sound reasoning to me.
Guardian Enzo
2009-08-26, 18:21
What part of that post (which was made weeks ago, so I'm shocked it's getting so much attention lately) doesn't sound like an opinion? It seems clearly to be a stated opinion and nothing else as far as I'm concerned.
M.Marangio
2009-09-09, 18:31
The fourth manga volume with the OP DVD was released today.
Links with some screenshots:
http://journal.mycom.co.jp/news/2009/09/09/048/index.html
http://blog.livedoor.jp/geek/archives/50882905.html (ads may be NSFW)
kIuu0sQG9ng
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIuu0sQG9ng
It's only the beginning? I hope so. (Not at all a bad thing Kyoto Animation dropped this, especially with their recent scores)
ehhh, no dance?
the song/opening is surprisingly addictive after a few repeats. oh I love it...
Shadow Kira01
2009-09-11, 23:05
So, this is the fujoshi anime that KyoAni had dropped?
The OP looks okay..
ehhh, no dance?
the song/opening is surprisingly addictive after a few repeats. oh I love it...
Well not every OP Yamakan has done has a dance, like the second OP for Shana 2.
Kaoru Chujo
2009-09-15, 13:36
I was lukewarm to this at first, but the music and animation have both grown on me. The character-design has a fascinating physicality. The characters seem interesting: it makes me want to see the anime.
it makes me want to see the anime.
Let's hope they at least make one first.
musume_no_hoshi
2009-09-15, 16:51
I hope this is the 'pilot'. Alot of the cuts look more like clips from an episode then part of the opening. Such as Yaoi-chan fangirling over two male highschoolers, the fujoshi meeting and her sister's new BL doujin.
Like most fans thought, it did turn moe. It feels a bit odd, since it very Kannagi like with the same character designer. If I didn't know better, I would have thought this is a moe anime then a josei (the manga is published under a josei magazine). BL references are great when you're a fujoshi yourself, I totally understand Yaoi-chan's feeling when she sees two highschoolers. :heh:
I hope this is the 'pilot'. Alot of the cuts look more like clips from an episode then part of the opening. Such as Yaoi-chan fangirling over two male highschoolers, the fujoshi meeting and her sister's new BL doujin.
If you ask me, they're more like nods to scenes from the manga.
Kaoru Chujo
2009-09-15, 23:10
If you ask me, they're more like nods to scenes from the manga.Maybe they are both nods to manga scenes and suggestions of what could be in an anime. The OP to Kannagi showed scenes that weren't in the anime. Maybe that, too, began as a sort of pilot for the anime. Of course, I'm really just hoping for an anime, lol.
I'm going to have to search out the comic, but from what I've seen, I get what people are saying about moeification. This is clearly Yamakan's visual style, but still there are aspects that give me a non-moe feeling: 801-chan's expressions are somehow individual and real to me; the way her body shape can be seen through her clothes is not exactly moe to me; and the way her feet were shown in the heels was too real to be moe, too. Maybe Yamakan is aiming to capture both audiences by edging a bit toward moe, but not the whole way.
Anyway, as I said, 801-chan seemed a very appealing character to me, and I'd like to see her in action.
Guardian Enzo
2009-09-16, 00:13
Didn't they sort of steal that overhead umbrella thing from the Toradora OP?
Didn't they sort of steal that overhead umbrella thing from the Toradora OP?
& i can say Toradora stole the idea from a few 80s anime shows that come to mind. :)
It's not about stealing at all.
Ottocycle
2009-09-16, 06:31
I thought it was a nice way of putting out the numbers for the show's title, though of course I'm sure there have been earlier shows(or ads) which did it.
Gawd the furballs. :heh:
Seem that the video has been deleted...
Here's a temporary backup, 'till it last :p
s_OQJCeZo40
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_OQJCeZo40
musume_no_hoshi
2009-09-16, 09:53
I just think if this sells well, a OVA wouldn't be out of the question. But Ordet is working on Black Rock Shooter. Yamamoto Yutaka did say he made this short to avenge himself (from wikipedia)...so lets just sit back and wait.
I wonder do more fujoshis read this or male-otakus? As a fujoshi/yaoi-fangirl/whateveryouliketocallme myself, I find most of the in-jokes absolutely hilarious. 801-chan is your typical fujoshi. But then again it 'might' appeal to otakus that they 'could' have a cute girl friend too, even if they are seen as rotten in society :heh:.
Kazu-kun
2009-09-16, 10:10
I wonder do more fujoshis read this or male-otakus? As a fujoshi/yaoi-fangirl/whateveryouliketocallme myself, I find most of the in-jokes absolutely hilarious. 801-chan is your typical fujoshi. But then again it 'might' appeal to otakus that they 'could' have a cute girl friend too, even if they are seen as rotten in society :heh:.
IIRC the manga was a hit among female readers, but I don't know if it was particularly popular among guys. This pilot thingy seems yet another moe thing, so it probably targets guys, like 90% of anime this days.
Then again, this is just and OP, and I don't think we're going to see a tv series out of this any time soon.
EDIT: and for the record, the character designs suck. It ruins the whole thing IMO.
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