Code Geass R2 - Episode 24 Discussion / Poll [Archive] - Page 7

Anh_Minh

2008-09-24, 14:45

You don't think he just let Nina go for no reason right? He knew that they would make something. If he was so set on taking over the world he could have just taken her or killed her.
I think she disappeared in the confusion. Mostly, though, I protest the idea that he could have foreseen another damn scientific breakthrough - down to the day it happened.

Hey, he can't make things easy. He did it to get Lelouch moving and it worked. besides, lelouch KNEW he was going to do it anyway.
Yeah, 'cause Lelouch knows sociopathy runs in the family. So?

What does he have against Britannia? Maybe because he hates how it does things under Charles and now under Lelouch? You know, the obvious.
Right, because he hated conquering half of Europe. Right. And the people there, most of them commoners, are totally responsible for the nobles and royals' screwed up mentality.

And yes, him dieing, FLEIA's being gone for good,
Fleija isn't gone for good. Nina's still out there. So are Lloyd and Cecile. So, probably, are quite a few people Nina cooperated with. Most importantly, the cat's out of the bag - the world now knows it can be done. So even if all the people I just cited suddenly caught a case of death, some other scientists would rediscover it.

and Lelouch dieing, would work towards World Peace. Britannia would collapse because its infrastructure is GONE after the Nuke was dropped (another reason why it was important)
Going out on a limb, but I'd guess that the biggest nation on Earth, whose demography actually allowed it to go and conquer other large countries, had other cities. Pendragon's just a single city, even if it was the capital. If tomorrow Washington's nuked, do you really think the US' infrastructure will be gone? That in one hit, it'll have been rendered toothless?

and if Lelouch goes away, Britannia is now leaderless fully.
The balkanization of the largest, most powerful nation on Earth. You call that world peace? I don't. Especially if the other countries decide it's time for some payback.

Everyone was either Geassed
So what if they were geassed?

or killed anyway, so they can't really act either. So then we have peace since all that is really left is... well, everyone not Birtannia and they are all in the UFN.
Who suddenly lost its reason for existence. What glued them together, made them accept the humiliation of not having their own army anymore, was the threat of Britannia. So once the threat's gone? And the only "charismatic leader" left is a loli from a "small island country" with no particular qualifications?

Orga777

2008-09-24, 15:01

I think she disappeared in the confusion. Mostly, though, I protest the idea that he could have foreseen another damn scientific breakthrough - down to the day it happened.

How does one go from the Avalon (where Schneizel was), to "disappear in the confusion?":eyebrow:

Also, why the hell do you think he wasn't that surprised when they used that Anti-FLEIA device? He just went "Oh, to think they had a toy like that." and then when they busted in "Oh, what a nasty move." with a smirk on his face. Seriously now. It all points that he was ready to die and take Lelouch with him. Lelouch knew that, why the hell do you think he beat him? Because he knew that is what Schneizel wanted. Didn't he even say that after he Geassed him?

Yeah, 'cause Lelouch knows sociopathy runs in the family. So?

Or because it was Schneizel's move anyway. XD
Lelouch knew Schneizel's plans well in advance. ALL of them. Right down to the end.

Right, because he hated conquering half of Europe. Right. And the people there, most of them commoners, are totally responsible for the nobles and royals' screwed up mentality.

Why do you think he made peace with some of Europe? :eyebrow:
The the hell do you think he went against his father when his father said pretty much "Crush China!" and he went, for a less bloodshed method? :eyebrow:

Fleija isn't gone for good. Nina's still out there. So are Lloyd and Cecile. So, probably, are quite a few people Nina cooperated with. Most importantly, the cat's out of the bag - the world now knows it can be done. So even if all the people I just cited suddenly caught a case of death, some other scientists would rediscover it.

Not if they don't know how it works they wouldn't. :p
Schneizel has every FLEIA currently made. If nobody figured out how to make one during that month gap, then they don't know how. If Damocles goes up, all the FLEIA's will be going with it. Nina will probably disappear, and the other scientists may be with Schneizel in Damocles.

Going out on a limb, but I'd guess that the biggest nation on Earth, whose demography actually allowed it to go and conquer other large countries, had other cities. Pendragon's just a single city, even if it was the capital. If tomorrow Washington's nuked, do you really think the US' infrastructure will be gone? That in one hit, it'll have been rendered toothless?

If the President, Vice President, and all of Congress was there... um... YES!
But guess what? Current Britannia is all Lelouch now. Didn't you listen to what Xing-Ke said in 23? The Britannia infrastructure is frozen. It doesn't help that all the Royals and many Nobles are 1) Now without power because that is what Lelouch decreed, 2) Geassed into being slaves, or 3) killed for uprising against Lelouch, means they have nothing once Lelouch falls.

Who suddenly lost its reason for existence. What glued them together, made them accept the humiliation of not having their own army anymore, was the threat of Britannia. So once the threat's gone? And the only "charismatic leader" left is a loli from a "small island country" with no particular qualifications?

Not really. If Britannia is gone, what would be the point in fighting amongst themselves? It would be time to rebuild their trashed countries rather than fight. Besides, they don't have the military power to do a whole lot on their own. Since, you know, they gave it all to the Black Knights and now they are all under a binding political agreement with the Black Knights. XD

Anh_Minh

2008-09-24, 15:41

How does one go from the Avalon (where Schneizel was), to "disappear in the confusion?":eyebrow:
He was still wearing his affable mask, and she wasn't a prisoner. She probably just told a soldier "I want to go down" and was answered "yes, ma'am.".

Also, why the hell do you think he wasn't that surprised when they used that Anti-FLEIA device? He just went "Oh, to think they had a toy like that." and then when they busted in "Oh, what a nasty move." with a smirk on his face.
Why would he show surprise? And there's a difference between acknowledging a vague possibility for an anti-Fleija, to making a plan that relies entirely on them making one in time.

Seriously now. It all points that he was ready to die and take Lelouch with him. Lelouch knew that, why the hell do you think he beat him? Because he knew that is what Schneizel wanted. Didn't he even say that after he Geassed him?
And there's a difference between "being ready to die when all is lost" and "dying was his actual plan, not his backup".

Or because it was Schneizel's move anyway. XD
Lelouch knew Schneizel's plans well in advance. ALL of them. Right down to the end.
Lelouch's point was that Schneizel misread Lelouch's intention. He thought Lelouch only wanted to kill him, and that's why he didn't have a defense against Geass (like blowing his own head off). Not that Schneizel actually wanted to die.

Why do you think he made peace with some of Europe? :eyebrow:
To look good.

The the hell do you think he went against his father when his father said pretty much "Crush China!" and he went, for a less bloodshed method? :eyebrow:
Same reason.

Not if they don't know how it works they wouldn't. :p
Schneizel has every FLEIA currently made. If nobody figured out how to make one during that month gap, then they don't know how. If Damocles goes up, all the FLEIA's will be going with it. Nina will probably disappear, and the other scientists may be with Schneizel in Damocles.
History's full of parallel discoveries - different scientists finding the same stuff while working independantly. There's nothing keeping other scientists from making the same breakthrough Nina did. Certainly not funding - she's conveniently proved it can be done, and nobody will want to be the only one without it.

Sure, it may take them years. But they'll figure it out.

If the President, Vice President, and all of Congress was there... um... YES!
I don't think infrastructure means what you think it means.

Besides, even if Washington's nuked, there'll still be plenty of governors and generals out there, to name just a few.
But guess what? Current Britannia is all Lelouch now. Didn't you listen to what Xing-Ke said in 23? The Britannia infrastructure is frozen. It doesn't help that all the Royals and many Nobles are 1) Now without power because that is what Lelouch decreed, 2) Geassed into being slaves, or 3) killed for uprising against Lelouch, means they have nothing once Lelouch falls.
Even if Lelouch took the nobles' power away, he wasn't micromanaging every aspect of his empire. There just aren't enough hours in the day. There'll still be other people in positions of power.

Not really. If Britannia is gone, what would be the point in fighting amongst themselves?
They're human. They'll come up with something.

It would be time to rebuild their trashed countries rather than fight.
Oh, world peace for a few years! Maybe.

Besides, they don't have the military power to do a whole lot on their own. Since, you know, they gave it all to the Black Knights and now they are all under a binding political agreement with the Black Knights. XD

Paper shields. So very useful. Most of those soldiers have been Black Knights for a few months. What makes you think they've lost loyalty to their homelands? What makes you think that if their countries say they don't want to play anymore, they won't go home?

wingdarkness

2008-09-24, 16:52

KrimzonStriker

2008-09-24, 16:58

Not that anyone else couldn't figure this out, but I've been thinking and maybe the Zero REquim is resetting EVERYTHING back to the way it was before geass became an unfair factor in the make-up of the world...With geass research hideouts and the world of C in $hitsville he can reset the world back to it's linear state...

Charles longing for a past world (which is ironic in the sense of this passage) created the origin of events that lead to Lulu's use of geass and the ultimate power struggle between his godless brats...So perhaps his plan will bring the world back to that equal, natural, course of events that should have always been intended...So perhaps pushing that button IS the Zero REquim and perhaps stopping Nunally from pushing that button is...Despite whether or not Geassed-Schnizel is on that ship, the Damculos being totally and utterly defeated with the remaing world powers alive (Led by those more peaceful in power) will shift the world back into a state of ZERO (Not the man, but the value where humanity can reset)...

I certainly disagree on that, notice Lelouch's lines, he thanks C.C for giving him this power, for allowing him to step forward, and he alludes his Geass, as is his mask of Zero, to be attributed to human will and longing for a better tomorrow. That's what Lelouch is all about, he believe in tomorrow, not the past, not the present, but the future. I mean, if it was that easy then he shouldn't even bother going to her in the first place and follow up on Schneizel's dialogue concerning them both dieing, I think Zero Requiem is a bit different, I'm fairly sure there's more too it in any case given all these events preceding it that would suggest on contradiction on such a sequence taking place or being intended to take place by Lelouch >_>

wingdarkness

2008-09-24, 17:22

blitz1/2

2008-09-24, 17:26

Schniezal may not be killing off all humans with FREIJA. He probably wanted to revert the human race back to its natural state. (and finally peace)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nS-S2qh0eE
(0:00-0:20) I say Pandora's box is geass.
(3:10-3:20) Quote for above.

Shame that Schniezal succumbed to geass.

KrimzonStriker

2008-09-24, 17:28

^I'm saying the future in a sense where those left alive can create the new future from the world being reset or brought back to it's intended course ignoring the power of geass...The way it was meant to be IS the future...

Ignoring is one of the biggest faults I feel, I think as Lelouch attributed it, Geass is simply a power, much like the power of our own wills and though risks are involved as Schneizel pointed out about desire and such, I believe that through his dialogue Lelouch has placed his faith in people to grasp ahold of their dreams, wishes, and outcry against the world in their bid for happiness and manifest it into reality, just as Geass manifested for Lelouch and helped spark his rebellion against the world that has brought it to this point. I mean looking back on Turn 21 now about Charles saying that the Power of the King could not overcome God itself, and was proven wrong, I believe that Geass thus takes the form of our own individual power and inner strength, and symbolically that is what I think it will take for the world to change, in which dreams made manifest like Zero's mask and powers that can prove your own ability to take on the world, will inspire people to strive and take their own step forward to finding and obtaining that peaceful world and small bit of happiness we all seek ;)

wingdarkness

2008-09-24, 18:25

KrimzonStriker

2008-09-24, 18:29

^Don't harp on the semantics...Change the word "ignoring" with the word "above" or "beyond" if you like...My point is a reset world where society can move on with out geass being the impetus that drastically shifts the world off of it's intended course like what Charles began...The rest of your post basically supports my claim minus the choke-hold on the word "ignoring"...

Meh, we haven't even reached that level where we can use and control such a power yet really except for Lelouch so you can't go beyond what you haven't even touched upon just yet. I support Geass as a catalyst and don't condemn it like a lot of other people, it propagates change and Lelouch is quite insistent on that being a necessary factor, thus I think while mankind may or may not be ready for it, I won't suddenly disavow it as an option should we ever reach that plain. ;)

wingdarkness

2008-09-24, 18:54

Meh, we haven't even reached that level where we can use and control such a power yet really except for Lelouch so you can't go beyond what you haven't even touched upon just yet. I support Geass as a catalyst and don't condemn it like a lot of other people, it propagates change and Lelouch is quite insistent on that being a necessary factor, thus I think while mankind may or may not be ready for it, I won't suddenly disavow it as an option should we ever reach that plain. ;)

Hmmmm... That's back against the wall for you...We'll see if pushing that button recreates the world or if Lulu still plays God despite his longing to not play God...Geass shall decide...

Hamtaro623

2008-09-24, 18:58

It's because she was Geassed by the former Emperor Charles into believing that she was blind and couldn't walk. That was part of her being used as "bait", and to protect her from V.V.'s machinations. At first I didn't notice anything weird, but when I watched the episode over again, Nunnally both turned her head toward the key of Damocles (which was the first indication that she could see again) and then she got back up in her chair again. She was sitting nicely when Lelouch arrived (huge hint there that she can see AND walk now).

I seriously doubt Lelouch is going to just drop the Zero Requiem out of the blue. That would seriously SUCK and ruin the end of the series. What about the countless dead? I think Lelouch has matured enough to realize (and he's already said it himself) that he can no longer go on treating Nunnally as if her life is more valuable than others'. He didn't say so in so many words, but that is the essence of Lelouch's resolve. Besides, as I said, all he has to do is Geass her into giving him the key of Damocles and there shouldn't be too many repercussions of such a small Geass (at least in theory).

...oh. well then now i get it :D [XDDD whoops]

Charred Knight

2008-09-24, 19:33

Ignoring is one of the biggest faults I feel, I think as Lelouch attributed it, Geass is simply a power, much like the power of our own wills and though risks are involved as Schneizel pointed out about desire and such, I believe that through his dialogue Lelouch has placed his faith in people to grasp ahold of their dreams, wishes, and outcry against the world in their bid for happiness and manifest it into reality, just as Geass manifested for Lelouch and helped spark his rebellion against the world that has brought it to this point. I mean looking back on Turn 21 now about Charles saying that the Power of the King could not overcome God itself, and was proven wrong, I believe that Geass thus takes the form of our own individual power and inner strength, and symbolically that is what I think it will take for the world to change, in which dreams made manifest like Zero's mask and powers that can prove your own ability to take on the world, will inspire people to strive and take their own step forward to finding and obtaining that peaceful world and small bit of happiness we all seek ;)

You keep on mentioning will and you keep forgetting that this is the will of Lelouch, Suzaku, and C.C.

Lelouch keeps on mentioning how he believes in human will, than he goes around robbing people of it so they can follow HIS will. That's not fascinating, its hypocrisy.

Will can only be found through free choice. I don't see how that can happen in Lelouch's dream world.

KrimzonStriker

2008-09-24, 20:04

You keep on mentioning will and you keep forgetting that this is the will of Lelouch, Suzaku, and C.C.

Lelouch keeps on mentioning how he believes in human will, than he goes around robbing people of it so they can follow HIS will. That's not fascinating, its hypocrisy.

Will can only be found through free choice. I don't see how that can happen in Lelouch's dream world.

Not for long... the world will see, this isn't enforcement or education, it'll be a revelation ;)

Lelouch demonstrates belief in a common will that all people have, a common goal and dream in which they have struggled for and wish to obtain. As for those people, eh, not getting my sympathy, they used to do it with guns and 'law' before now to others, this is just more efficient in manner. And who the hell cares about hypocrisy or the irony, all that matters are the results they will produce and whether or not it will justify the cost and from the looks of things its setting up to be well worth it soon :p

That's exactly his point though, all people need to do is pursue it. As Schneizel pointed out once before, people want peace but they do nothing to obtain it, they don't try and understand each other or they depend on others to fix the problem for them. Instead of Schneizel enforcing that continued illusion through force and power, I believe Lelouch will manifest it into a reality by stirring people to take the action needed. Time will tell, world peace looks to be around the corner though and that's all I really need to say :D

Charred Knight

2008-09-24, 20:41

Not for long... the world will see, this isn't enforcement or education, it'll be a revelation ;)

Lelouch demonstrates belief in a common will that all people have, a common goal and dream in which they have struggled for and wish to obtain. As for those people, eh, not getting my sympathy, they used to do it with guns and 'law' before now to others, this is just more efficient in manner. And who the hell cares about hypocrisy or the irony, all that matters are the results they will produce and whether or not it will justify the cost and from the looks of things its setting up to be well worth it soon :p

That's exactly his point though, all people need to do is pursue it. As Schneizel pointed out once before, people want peace but they do nothing to obtain it, they don't try and understand each other or they depend on others to fix the problem for them. Instead of Schneizel enforcing that continued illusion through force and power, I believe Lelouch will manifest it into a reality by stirring people to take the action needed. Time will tell, world peace looks to be around the corner though and that's all I really need to say :D

Let's jus say I hope your not elected some kind of leader, you sound like your trying to spread some kind of propaganda, like Imperial Japan.

KrimzonStriker

2008-09-24, 20:45

Let's jus say I hope your not elected some kind of leader, you sound like your trying to spread some kind of propaganda, like Imperial Japan.

Nah, my goals in life isn't to lead, its to expose and reveal, just like Leouch. Its not propaganda either, just a cold, hard, analysis followed by a bit of optimism and hope that things may be better tomorrow, just as Lelouch is doing now ;)

Syphen

2008-09-24, 20:51

Nah, my goals in life isn't to lead, its to expose and reveal, just like Leouch. Its not propaganda either, just a cold, hard, analysis followed by a bit of optimism and hope that things may be better tomorrow ;)

People are more secure with less freedom. Geass is just a means to obtain that security with a higher than usual cost in personal freedom.

KrimzonStriker

2008-09-24, 20:56

People are more secure with less freedom. Geass is just a means to obtain that security with a higher than usual cost in personal freedom.

That's a half-measure, one in which we use every day. Its time people stepped up in taking care of their own security I feel, and that will only come when they take responsibility of and with their personal freedom, their will, their symbolic Geass and inner power made manifest. The only real peace is one in which people can agree on and work together fully and unconditionally, devoting their all to a cause that will benefit them in the end. Governments, institutions, their only stop gaps that break down or are corrupted eventually. My hope and I believe Lelouch's hope as well is that one day will come when each and every person strives towards it of their own volition, when they stop asking of others and started doing instead. :rolleyes:

Syphen

2008-09-24, 21:04

That's a half-measure, one in which we use every day. Its time people stepped up in taking care of their own security I feel, and that will only come when they take responsibility of and with their personal freedom, their will, their symbolic Geass and inner power made manifest. The only real peace is one in which people can agree on and work together full and unconditionally, devoting their all to a cause that will benefit them in the end. Governments, institutions, their only stop gaps that break down or are corrupted eventually. My hope one day is when each and every person strives towards it of their own volition, when they stop asking of others and started doing instead. :rolleyes:

This is nothing but a pipe dream, human kind can scarcely agree on a definition of peace to begin with, much less a means by which to obtain and maintain it. The devil is in the details and as soon as dissent occurs, it's destined to escalate. Others think that there are more important things than peace, such as justice and fairness and are willing to break the peace to get these things. People can't organize themselves into such a world, it can only be brought to them by an individual or group whose ideals have the momentum to push through the natural human aversion to change and fear of the unknown.

KrimzonStriker

2008-09-24, 21:10

This is nothing but a pipe dream, human kind can scarcely agree on a definition of peace to begin with, much less a means by which to obtain and maintain it. The devil is in the details and as soon as dissent occurs, it's destined to escalate. Others think that there are more important things than peace, such as justice and fairness and are willing to break the peace to get these things. People can't organize themselves into such a world, it can only be brought to them by an individual or group whose ideals have the momentum to push through the natural human aversion to change and fear of the unknown.

Yeah, I know, I'm just giving you my assessment on the idea is all, and how I think it correlates to what Lelouch is aiming for, I didn't say it had to be likely, and this is an anime after all. If peace was obtained, agreed upon, and sustained then the drive for justice and fairness would be incorporated into it, if people strove to help one another without having to be afraid of gaining nothing or have reason to believe they will be betrayed then there would be no reason to break it in the first place, if it really was peace in essence. Governments, individuals, they fade away in time or they lose because they must force people into such a state versus inspiring them to work towards it, and they fall under the weight as people use them as a crutch for all their answers. I believe in the end, that it is ideas, concepts, hearts and minds that go further and last longer then anyone or anything.

Syphen

2008-09-24, 21:14

Yeah, I know, I'm just giving you my assessment on the idea is all, I didn't say it had to be likely. If peace was obtained, agreed upon, and sustained then the drive for justice and fairness would be incorporated into it, if people strove to help one another without being afraid of gaining nothing or have reason to believe they will be betrayed then there would be no reason to break it in the first place, if it really was peace in essence. Governments, individuals, they fade away in time or they lose because they must force people into such a state versus inspiring them towards it, and they fall under the weight as people use them as a crutch for all their answers. I believe in the end, that it is ideas, concepts, hearts and minds that go further and last longer then anyone or anything.

You're a real idealist. :)

KrimzonStriker

2008-09-24, 21:18

You're a real idealist. :)

Thank you, I don't think Charred agrees very much, but I like to think so anyway. I'm just not stupid enough to believe it would appear as I say though just because I say it. I recognize the world as is, but I also still dream of what it should be and how it could be, just like how I view Lelouch and why I can relate to him so well. Ah anyway, it might just be a dream in reality, but at least I'll be able to see it made manifest in anime. So looking forward to seeing Zero Requiem bear fruit and for the final episodes coming. Anyway, just my take on Lelouch's ideals that he made known in this episode and how I understood them, make of it what you will ;)

ApostleOfGod

2008-09-24, 21:54

Thank you, I don't think Charred agrees very much, but I like to think so anyway. I'm just not stupid enough to believe it would appear as I say though just because I say it. I recognize the world as is, but I also still dream of what it should be and how it could be, just like how I view Lelouch and why I can relate to him so well. Ah anyway, it might just be a dream in reality, but at least I'll be able to see it made manifest in anime. So looking forward to seeing Zero Requiem bear fruit and for the final episodes coming. Anyway, just my take on Lelouch's ideals that he made known in this episode and how I understood them, make of it what you will ;)

That's my C.C. blood brother. Real talk right there ;)

Anyways, to put in my two cents, being the type of person who finds anything interesting, anime is one method of how people bring imaginations into reality. Something like anime, where lots of people are actually involved, become something along the lines of a drama lets say, and yes, it becomes "brought to life" or animate to reality. Books, music, poems, painting, art, or whatever, it all applies the same. But damn, sometimes it's refreshing and shoves a bit of excitement into the otherwise-empty part of you. Not saying I feel empty without anime or anything, but something like an epic episode of CG keeps me patiently waiting like a hound :). Then the week flies by with life, and bam. CG. My weekly dose of C.C. and that eternally fine witch body of hers. ;)

Proudleaf

2008-09-24, 22:41

That's my C.C. blood brother. Real talk right there ;)

Anyways, to put in my two cents, being the type of person who finds anything interesting, anime is one method of how people bring imaginations into reality. Something like anime, where lots of people are actually involved, become something along the lines of a drama lets say, and yes, it becomes "brought to life" or animate to reality. Books, music, poems, painting, art, or whatever, it all applies the same. But damn, sometimes it's refreshing and shoves a bit of excitement into the otherwise-empty part of you. Not saying I feel empty without anime or anything, but something like an epic episode of CG keeps me patiently waiting like a hound :). Then the week flies by with life, and bam. CG. My weekly dose of C.C. and that eternally fine witch body of hers. ;)

Most fans will testify that they find the genre an enriching hobby or part of their entertainment. It's not foolish at all; it's good that you enjoy a series as much as you do.

Jeffry2009

2008-09-24, 23:24

I thought it was pretty cool how Lelouch turned the tables on Schneizel. Schneizel went on about how well he knew Lelouch, and that was why he'd win. But the bottom line reason Lelouch was able to Geass Schneizel was because he played off of his overconfidence, and because of the way he approached him, placing his hand on his shoulder, making him think that it was his lover/attendant. Looks like Lelouch knew Schneizel equally as well.

So uh, what has V.V. @ sheizel exactly done to Nunally now? Lelouch says the line 'she conquered his geass?' after she finally open her eyes. No Wonder how that happens after That DoucheBag V.V. :mad: Dragged her away during last season then uses her and turns her into a governor in this season.

Does she have a superpowers like his father, charles i mean she could have a stigmata on her palm just like charles. :eyebrow:

Kyero Fox

2008-09-24, 23:34

I think everything will be fine in the end, something happens then theres a flash of white light, maybe some talkin then the scene will skip to a month or a year into the future.
-------Do not take anything after this serious, its a joke -\/-
One way or Another, the ending will be a happy one....... that is as long as Kallen lives *crazy laugh* Yes... everything will be fine... no blood will be shied at the end of the Anime... atleast... not in the anime... the real world?... who knows... aslong as Kallen is alive.. the world wont become a Pool of Blood .... Launch.. White.. Glint!

SoldierOfDarkness

2008-09-24, 23:40

So uh, what has V.V. @ sheizel exactly done to Nunally now? Lelouch says the line 'she conquered his geass?' after she finally open her eyes. No Wonder how that happens after That DoucheBag V.V. :mad: Dragged her away during last season then uses her and turns her into a governor in this season.

Does she have a superpowers like his father, charles i mean she could have a stigmata on her palm just like charles. :eyebrow:

No.

What happened was that VV set Nunnally up as a false witness when he murdered Marianne.

To protect Nunnally and Marianne, Charles used his geass to alter Nunnally's memories and make her blind.

Therefore her blindess was never psychological but was caused by Charle's geass to protect her.

Nunnally was so geared up on finding the detonator and killing her brother that she was able to break the geass herself.

LustfulEnvy

2008-09-24, 23:50

Yeah, remember the episode where Lulu cast Geass unintentionally on Yuffie. Im guessing you can break free from Geass' effects if your willpower is strong enough. I also think the effects weaken over time.

Cherudim Arche

2008-09-24, 23:57

Geass is a case by case, sometime it is breakable, other no so much. Time would vary for each geass though, some can maintain control, other can end up breaking like bismarck.

germanturkey

2008-09-25, 00:02

Cherudim Arche

2008-09-25, 00:08

i think its stupid if its breakable. because euphie tried to fight it, but in the end it failed. she could fight it to an extent, but beyond that she couldn't do anything about it. like when she was on her deathbed with Suzaku.

It's like the roulette, if someone wins one, they win everything, if it lands on everything else, it will succumb. Euphy to me was different, due to the situations presented beforehand and after the geassing. Other situation might say the say, or slightly different, yet to Lelouch's geass, that is more leass something like the in and out.

LustfulEnvy

2008-09-25, 00:18

Jeffry2009

2008-09-25, 00:31

What happened was that VV set Nunnally up as a false witness when he murdered Marianne.

To protect Nunnally and Marianne, Charles used his geass to alter Nunnally's memories and make her blind.

Therefore her blindess was never psychological but was caused by Charle's geass to protect her.

Nunnally was so geared up on finding the detonator and killing her brother that she was able to break the geass herself.

Yeah, thanks a lot i mean someone told me about it. No wonder she's not really THAT blind. Now I'm totally forgot & confused since last week. forgive me if i'm wrong. :D

Franckisted

2008-09-25, 03:03

darkhack19

2008-09-25, 03:06

nunally has huuuuuuuge eyes...

Syphen

2008-09-25, 03:07

I don't think so.
I don't see her all that surprised at that moment.
I mean if I where to recover my sight after 10 years, the first time I'll open my eyes and see, I'll certainly jump back or "WTF????? I can see... YAAAAAYYY" , or make if I were in the position of nunnally... dunno sit down.
But here, naturally, she stop everything, open her eyes calmly and just turn a little here head.

No surpise here.

She can see and she knows it. Maybe she thought about camera or someone watching here, and since no response at all, so she decided to open here eyes to see were was TEH BUTTON!!!!! ^^

My guess is that she can see and is putting an act, at least since her re-apperance in ep 22. ;)

It's not simply that she regained her sight and ability to walk, she regained the memories that were Geassed from her. This means that she knows the reason she lost her sight, because she'll be able to recall the act of losing it. Why would she be surprised if she already knows.

darkhack19

2008-09-25, 03:09

Nunnally* misspelled it on last post =)

lovescent

2008-09-25, 06:36

It also seemed that Charle's Geass was easier to break out of considering each geass has differential weaknesses and strengths. Lelouch wa able to break out of it but needed outside forces to do that. Nunally may of been able to do it but needed the right motivation, which is ironically to kill her own brother.

i think this makes more sense, as i dont see her breaking out of Lelouch's geass as easy as she did Charles'. :confused: but i guess we wont know unless he does geass her next ep. :heh:

demon_god04

2008-09-25, 08:36

No. He said that while wearing a MASK. His real goal was never "Nuke the world!" Cornelia realized it after all. Lelouch realized it too for that matter. Schneizel's other plans were ploys. As Lelouch said "It wasn't a strategy. What I read was your true nature." Schneizel was ready to die. Lelouch knew that and that is how he beat him.

That is just your own conjecture, considering that if Schneizel's real goal was not to nuke the world, why did he want to have other countries make more Fleijas? He specifically said that other countries would jump at the chance to make weapons that defeated Emperor Lelouch. If he plan really was as you said earlier to die and take Lelouch with him then why escape when he set the Damocles' Fleija to go off? Cornelia realised that Schneizel, in her opinion, would have made the perfect ruler had the circumstances been different. As in she does not believe he is one in the current situation.

Yes, but that is why he may have lost faith as well. Before he knew of Geass, well, that is self-explanatory I guess. After, he learned that it was lelouch who did this. Same thing applies. The incident messed him up. Whether it was because of Euphemia or because of Lelouch (who he wants to get rid of badly.)

But it shows that it is not humanity itself that is like that, but rather that the people were manipulated.

Considering Schneizel still had faith when a whole lot of bad shit was going on still, means he was tested. It just so happened that everything may have fell apart in the Euphie incident and he just didn't CARE any more since he saw it as futile as useless. As I said, he seemed to gamble everything on Euphie and it backfired. Didn't he also say "Human still fail to understand each other." in 23? That is true. Considering he didn't have the same experiences Lelouch had (someone Schneizel saw as ignoring the wills of others, which WAS true.) It all comes down to the environment he was exposed to though. Charles pretty much set up fights between his children for power right? At least according to lelouch (no reason to doubt it either since Charles doesn't care one way or the other.) If Schneizel was not in that environment, how would he have turned out? That is where it comes from really. Britannia was just not great for either Lelouch or Schneizel really.

He was tested and by the results that we saw and where he ended he failed just like Charles. Regardless of the incident that sparked this, you admitted that he lost himself and did not care and saw it as futile and useless. That in itself is the failure of the test. I believe we agreed earlier that both Charles and Schneizel are alike in that they had lost the ability to see the potential of the future and clung to what was safe to them. Schneizel and Lelouch are different people, of course their experiences and the way they interpret them are different. And Charles did not really set up any fights between his children, I think it was pretty apparent given the geass episode that he just did not care about them enough to do something like that. His plan and Marianne were all that he cared about. Lelouch saw the people's struggles and interpreted them in his own way, Schneizel also saw struggle but because of his privileged life he saw them differently. Circumstances aside, no matter what the world was like Schneizel would have always had a privileged life as the second prince.

Either way that still does not really answer the point that regardless of his outstanding ability, Schneizel is not fit for the title of the perfect ruler because he, like Charles, forsook the future and is trapped in the present. One who loses faith and hope in humanity because they are shown it's ugliest parts cannot claim that title. Regardless of the circumstances, a ruler is always at the top looking down upon the people he rules. It is exactly in those dark times such as the world had gone through that the people need a leader who can look towards the future to make things better. Being a great ruler when the situation and circumstances are perfect does not make you a perfect ruler. Being that great and perfect ruler when the people needed it the most, when things are not perfect is what marks a true leader.

Traece

2008-09-25, 08:50

No.

What happened was that VV set Nunnally up as a false witness when he murdered Marianne.

To protect Nunnally and Marianne, Charles used his geass to alter Nunnally's memories and make her blind.

Therefore her blindess was never psychological but was caused by Charle's geass to protect her.

Nunnally was so geared up on finding the detonator and killing her brother that she was able to break the geass herself.

To be honest I think it's more like she always thought she was blind... So she always had her eyes closed and it just became natural for them to be shut.

My thought is... Who says that the Geass needed to be broken if her memories were just altered? I think she just never bothered to try and open them. :heh:

This is sort of odd but if you rember Talladega Nights: The Ballad of Ricky Bobby he gets in the crash and thinks he's paralyzed... Then stabs himself in the leg. That's when he realized he wasn't paralyzed... When it REALLY HURT AND STARTED TO BLEED! :heh:(If you haven't seen this movie now I don't have sympathy... They showed it on Starz, like... All of them... I've seen it probably twenty times!)

Nunnally* misspelled it on last post =)

That's why they have an edit button. :eyebrow: You know... Bottom of your posts... Big button... Says EDIT...

i think this makes more sense, as i dont see her breaking out of Lelouch's geass as easy as she did Charles'. :confused: but i guess we wont know unless he does geass her next ep. :heh:

So far nobody has actually been able to break Lelouch's Geass. At least, not that I remember.

Even Euphemia never broke from it, and it stuck with her until she died. No matter how much she willed it to be gone and no matter how much she wanted to love Suzaku and stop hating the 11's, she couldn't do it.

She could fight the Geass. Of course she could. But she couldn't take over and rid herself of it altogether.

Charles on the other hand had a pretty crappy Geass and considering we have a subconcious, a concious, all these different lobes and neurons and all that crap which might not necessarily have to do anything with what I'm about to say besides the two common levels of conciousness *deep breath*, I could see someone breaking out. It's as simple as REMEMBERING.

Revolutionist

2008-09-25, 10:56

Vakir

2008-09-25, 12:29

Say what?

for all intents and purposes Charles' geass is the same as Lelouch. We know he's used it to a) make Nunnaly think she's blind b) rewrite memories. Guess what? Lelouch has done the same thing, he rewrote Shirley's memories, and he made Mao mute....

Lelouch has done plenty of things outside of memory based concepts, whereas Charles simply rewrote memories to make her believe she was blind through all the exerted trauma.

If Charles rewrote Euphie's memory to, say, make her believe that it was her duty to kill all the Japanese, it wouldn't have gone off the same way as an absolute command.

Orga777

2008-09-25, 12:51

That is just your own conjecture, considering that if Schneizel's real goal was not to nuke the world, why did he want to have other countries make more Fleijas? He specifically said that other countries would jump at the chance to make weapons that defeated Emperor Lelouch. If he plan really was as you said earlier to die and take Lelouch with him then why escape when he set the Damocles' Fleija to go off? Cornelia realised that Schneizel, in her opinion, would have made the perfect ruler had the circumstances been different. As in she does not believe he is one in the current situation.

Yeah, it is my conjecture, and I can definitely be wrong on that point. But I do think that he wanted Lelouch to "win" in a sense. He set Lelouch up before and I think he did it again. It isn't like it is out of his personality.

He was tested and by the results that we saw and where he ended he failed just like Charles. Regardless of the incident that sparked this, you admitted that he lost himself and did not care and saw it as futile and useless. That in itself is the failure of the test. I believe we agreed earlier that both Charles and Schneizel are alike in that they had lost the ability to see the potential of the future and clung to what was safe to them. Schneizel and Lelouch are different people, of course their experiences and the way they interpret them are different.

Some events can push people over the edge though. That is the case for EVERYONE. Look at what happened to Lelouch for example. One event can change people for the worst as much as it can for the better, and since Schneizel didn't have the same experiences as Lelouch and was stuck in a privileged position, he could never understand it. Lelouch didn't understand it himself till 46 episode into the series when it was right in his FACE the entire time.

Lelouch saw the people's struggles and interpreted them in his own way, Schneizel also saw struggle but because of his privileged life he saw them differently. Circumstances aside, no matter what the world was like Schneizel would have always had a privileged life as the second prince.

I can agree here, but you see, certain events may have forced Schneizel to give up on the future just like certain events gave Lelouch hope for the future. Lelouch had guidance, Schneizel didn't. Hell Schneizel COULDN'T show the weakness Lelouch has been able to show to people. He needed to keep on his mask because if he didn't, everything would be over because he was practically in charge of Britannia since his father didn't care enough to rule.

Either way that still does not really answer the point that regardless of his outstanding ability, Schneizel is not fit for the title of the perfect ruler because he, like Charles, forsook the future and is trapped in the present. One who loses faith and hope in humanity because they are shown it's ugliest parts cannot claim that title. Regardless of the circumstances, a ruler is always at the top looking down upon the people he rules. It is exactly in those dark times such as the world had gone through that the people need a leader who can look towards the future to make things better. Being a great ruler when the situation and circumstances are perfect does not make you a perfect ruler. Being that great and perfect ruler when the people needed it the most, when things are not perfect is what marks a true leader.

You see, I have to disagree fully here. When Cornelia said "In a different era, he would have been a great king" I didn't take it as Peace Time only. I took it as his environment. Do you think Charles' Britannia is a great place to grow up under? It really isn't, especially for the next ruler to come out and be great. It even took Lelouch a lot to finally understand things and he has seen everything first hand since the beginning. If it took him that long to get it, Schneizel losing sight of it when he originally had it WITHOUT seeing it first hand is a testament really. Certain things just knocked him down and he just couldn't get back up. All of it just made him lose sight. I can't blame the person as much as I blame the root of the problem, and that was how Britannia was run and how his father went about things.

demon_god04

2008-09-25, 13:14

Yeah, it is my conjecture, and I can definitely be wrong on that point. But I do think that he wanted Lelouch to "win" in a sense. He set Lelouch up before and I think he did it again. It isn't like it is out of his personality.

He has set up Lelouch before with the chess game but that was a situation where he could not lose. If Zero took that victory that Schneizel gave him it undermines the image of Zero. If Zero did not then he did not lose the game and in both situations Schneizel read the personality of the man behind the mask. Which was his intent with that move. So he was not giving Lelouch victory, far from it in fact.

Some events can push people over the edge though. That is the case for EVERYONE. Look at what happened to Lelouch for example. One event can change people for the worst as much as it can for the better, and since Schneizel didn't have the same experiences as Lelouch and was stuck in a privileged position, he could never understand it. Lelouch didn't understand it himself till 46 episode into the series when it was right in his FACE the entire time.

But despite what has happened, Lelouch found hope in the end. And he did it while Nunally was thought to be dead and he was confronted by his father and mother who he thought was dead and who shattered his image of her as a loving mother.

You see, I have to disagree fully here. When Cornelia said "In a different era, he would have been a great king" I didn't take it as Peace Time only. I took it as his environment. Do you think Charles' Britannia is a great place to grow up under? It really isn't, especially for the next ruler to come out and be great. It even took Lelouch a lot to finally understand things and he has seen everything first hand since the beginning. If it took him that long to get it, Schneizel losing sight of it when he originally had it WITHOUT seeing it first hand is a testament really. Certain things just knocked him down and he just couldn't get back up. All of it just made him lose sight. I can't blame the person as much as I blame the root of the problem, and that was how Britannia was run and how his father went about things.

Lelouch also had the neglected upbringing that Schneizel had. Though you can argue whether it is better or worst being farther away from the guy. Either way Schneizel knew and came to his own conclusions about the kind of man Charles was. We all make the best out of the circumstances we are given, Schneizel was just unable to do so. In saying that had he had a better environment to grow up in and to rule you are already imposing those better circumstances. Lelouch may not have had it in the begining but he did gain that understanding himself, he earned it. Schneizel may have had it in the beginning but losing sight of who he is is still the result. Plain and simple it means that while Lelouch is able to fight and pick himself back up no matter how many times he has fallen, Schneizel is unable to do the same.

Orga777

2008-09-25, 13:23

He has set up Lelouch before with the chess game but that was a situation where he could not lose. If Zero took that victory that Schneizel gave him it undermines the image of Zero. If Zero did not then he did not lose the game and in both situations Schneizel read the personality of the man behind the mask. Which was his intent with that move. So he was not giving Lelouch victory, far from it in fact.

Meh, I can see it that way too I guess.

But despite what has happened, Lelouch found hope in the end. And he did it while Nunally was thought to be dead and he was confronted by his father and mother who he thought was dead and who shattered his image of her as a loving mother.

He found it though because Charles was ready to change the world into practically nothingness and because he felt that the two in question didn't care about anyone but themselves. And he was right.

Lelouch also had the neglected upbringing that Schneizel had. Though you can argue whether it is better or worst being farther away from the guy. Either way Schneizel knew and came to his own conclusions about the kind of man Charles was. We all make the best out of the circumstances we are given, Schneizel was just unable to do so. In saying that had he had a better environment to grow up in and to rule you are already imposing those better circumstances. Lelouch may not have had it in the begining but he did gain that understanding himself, he earned it. Schneizel may have had it in the beginning but losing sight of who he is is still the result. Plain and simple it means that while Lelouch is able to fight and pick himself back up no matter how many times he has fallen, Schneizel is unable to do the same.

Then why are you arguing what Cornelia said? In different circumstances he WOULD make a great ruler. That, is fact. I KNOW he isn't a great ruler for what is currently the world, but that was never my argument here.

And as for Lelouch fighting and picking himself back up, it is ALWAYS because someone has to HELP HIM PICK HIMSELF BACK UP! Euphie massacre? C.C. helped him. When Nunnally told him he was wrong in R2 6? Kallen stopped him from using Refrain. When he was ready to be shot full of holes by the BKs when they betrayed him? Rolo had to bust in and save him. And in 21 when he was ready to stay locked away forever and die it took Suzaku as his back-up and learning that his parents were selfish bastards. Where the hell was Schneizel's help again?

KrimzonStriker

2008-09-25, 13:27

I guess Kanon didn't really do a very good job then if we go by that logic. :heh:

BTW, it was the Student Council as a whole who saved Lelouch in Turn 7 with a words and reminders from the past with Suzaku, you also forget Turn 23 after his reaction to Nunnally's return which again comes back to good old C.C and Suzaku. Just making a note :p

Orga777

2008-09-25, 13:32

I guess Kanon didn't really do a very good job then if we go by that logic. :heh:

Kanon can't do anything really. He is nothing more than a aide and Schneizel is the Second Prince and the Prime Minister (and really in charge of the entire nation since his father is so closed off.) Hell, does he even know the real Schneizel? Schneizel has to keep on his strong persona all the time because he has no choice but to. He can't look weak in the Britannian system.

BTW, it was the Student Council as a whole who saved Lelouch in Turn 7 with a words and reminders from the past with Suzaku, you also forget Turn 23 after his reaction to Nunnally's return which again comes back to good old C.C and Suzaku. Just making a note :p

Yeah, exactly. Schneizel never had the support Lelouch had and it was due to where he was and his position. Lelouch could get that support in his position.

Witacume

2008-09-25, 13:34

KrimzonStriker

2008-09-25, 13:36

Witacume

2008-09-25, 13:38

Orga777

2008-09-25, 13:41

Eh, his assement seemed pretty fair concerning Schneizel's character, Kanon was just too much of a wuss and went with whatever Schneizel wanted to in the end even when he felt uneasy, instead of slapping some sense into him as he should :p

Okay, that works too. XD

Well, that and the amount of care showed to him kept Lelouch from closing himself off completely, thus not being blind to the human side of life ;)

Got to agree here too. Thanks Krimzon for the back-up. :heh:

demon_god04

2008-09-25, 14:46

He found it though because Charles was ready to change the world into practically nothingness and because he felt that the two in question didn't care about anyone but themselves. And he was right.

In that sense Charles taught Lelouch a very valuable lesson.

Then why are you arguing what Cornelia said? In different circumstances he WOULD make a great ruler. That, is fact. I KNOW he isn't a great ruler for what is currently the world, but that was never my argument here.

And as for Lelouch fighting and picking himself back up, it is ALWAYS because someone has to HELP HIM PICK HIMSELF BACK UP! Euphie massacre? C.C. helped him. When Nunnally told him he was wrong in R2 6? Kallen stopped him from using Refrain. When he was ready to be shot full of holes by the BKs when they betrayed him? Rolo had to bust in and save him. And in 21 when he was ready to stay locked away forever and die it took Suzaku as his back-up and learning that his parents were selfish bastards. Where the hell was Schneizel's help again?

Because as I have said, I see great rulers are formed and tried during the bad times and not when the circumstances are better. A rulers' decisions and choices can affect millions of lives, you do not want someone who is unable to continue walking forward after taking a fall. Circumstances do not make a great leader, a great leader is born from the trials thrust upon them and how he responds to them despite any bad things that may be happening and to lead his people into a better future inspite of them.

I personally would not call Euphie massacre as picking himself back up, he was continuing down the "dark" path, same with Shirley's death. Had he continued he would have likely arrived at Schneizel's route. The real turning point was his confrontation with Charles and Marianne, that which point he did not need Suzaku to hold him up, he had already arrived at that conclusion by himself.

wingdarkness

2008-09-25, 14:48

Then why are you arguing what Cornelia said? In different circumstances he WOULD make a great ruler. That, is fact. I KNOW he isn't a great ruler for what is currently the world, but that was never my argument here.

But would he? I’m not as convinced as everyone else that Schniezel would be this uber great emporer…”He desires nothing…” , That’s all good semantics and all but he’s a very arrogant fellow, who like the other 2 parties (Zero and Charles) still used his god complex to bring the events to the point we have just witnessed…He doesn't strike me as the type that would never desire anything in a different world (The kind of power that easily grants desires)...He’s obvious fabulous enuff to warrant the position which has been proven lmao, but in another time he wouldn’t have needed to become the guy he is now, so who knows if he ever had it in him to be this soopa-great king…Fabulous divas tend to be a handful ya know…

BTW WTH did K-Striker do? He’s gonna have a aneurysm slash conniption-fit when he isn’t able to post after the final ep airs… That kinda sucks…

Orga777

2008-09-25, 14:53

In that sense Charles taught Lelouch a very valuable lesson.

Indeed. But Schneizel never had anything like that. He was stuck in an environment where he can't even express weakness. And when he lost his last glimmer of hope he may of had, it crushed him.

I personally would not call Euphie massacre as picking himself back up, he was continuing down the "dark" path, same with Shirley's death. Had he continued he would have likely arrived at Schneizel's route. The real turning point was his confrontation with Charles and Marianne, that which point he did not need Suzaku to hold him up, he had already arrived at that conclusion by himself.

That is true, but Lelouch needed DIRECTION more times than once. Schneizel could only get direction from himself. Who did he have to teach him? His father pretty much ignored him and pretty much let him know that everything he is fighting for is "Petty" anyway. Lelouch had help getting on the right track (and yes, Suzaku did help him, Suzaku made Lelouch realize that Nunnally cannot be an excuse any more and that others are more important than his own selfish goals.)

Schneizel on the other hand never had selfishness in him. He doesn't do things for himself at all. But because he lost his way, he thought that what he was going about may be a good thing. Nobody was there to HELP him though. Because of Schneizel's family issues, he faced the same trials Lelouch did. But Lelouch, not Schneizel, had the help to get through them. Schneizel was all on his own. Even great leaders need help in the toughest times.

But would he? I’m not as convinced as everyone else that Schniezel would be this uber great emporer…”He desires nothing…” , That’s all good semantics and all but he’s a very arrogant fellow, who like the other 2 parties (Zero and Charles) still used his god complex to bring the events to the point we have just witnessed…He doesn't strike me as the type that would never desire anything in a different world (The kind of power that easily grants desires)...He’s obvious fabulous enuff to warrant the position which has been proven lmao, but in another time he wouldn’t have needed to become the guy he is now, so who knows if he ever had it in him to be this soopa-great king…Fabulous divas tend to be a handful ya know…

This isn't true. Schneizel doesn't WANT to be god. His exact words were "Then I will be god... If people want world peace from me that is." Schenizel is like that. he does what people expect of him. If people expect him to be a god, he will be a god. He isn't selfish enough to be arrogant enough to think he IS a god. Remember what he said "It is a perfect time to get rid of the Black Knights." "Oh, I can' do that. It would be greedy/ a desire." He does things not for himself. He does things for what he thinks is good for people. And that is because he never had the guiding lights Lelouch had when he fell after certain events.

Kyero Fox

2008-09-25, 15:20

can someone answer my question, is the Ninja Maid still on Lelouch's side?

Orga777

2008-09-25, 15:23

can someone answer my question, is the Ninja Maid still on Lelouch's side?

Yes. The reason she, Lloyd, and Cecile "betrayed" was because they were told to. This is Lelouch's whole plan. He is becoming the enemy to unite the world in peace for the good of the future.

wingdarkness

2008-09-25, 15:35

This isn't true. Schneizel doesn't WANT to be god. His exact words were "Then I will be god... If people want world peace from me that is." Schenizel is like that. he does what people expect of him. If people expect him to be a god, he will be a god. He isn't selfish enough to be arrogant enough to think he IS a god. Remember what he said "It is a perfect time to get rid of the Black Knights." "Oh, I can' do that. It would be greedy/ a desire." He does things not for himself. He does things for what he thinks is good for people. And that is because he never had the guiding lights Lelouch had when he fell after certain events.

ANYONE who wants to enact a plan which the intended goal is killing millions or even billions to bring about whatever type of result they think the world needs or requires has a some level of a God Complex…Now he might not have one in the truest sense of the word, but understated or fully blasted, using your power to destroy or re-shape the world for it’s own good (What you believe is GOOD) and having the power to do this (and precisely acting upon it), IS playing GOD…

He does things for what he thinks is good for people

Exactly, what "HE THINKS",...When launching black-hole FEJITA’s at people is what you need to achieve this goal, that’s playing GOD…Just because he isn't taking any overblown pride or vanity from what he's doing doesn't mean the act isn't playing God..That's why He, Lulu, and Charles all fail...Even now in his effort to right the wrongs he's done Lulu is still trying to be God..Choosing to reset the world or save the world or dominate the world, and having the power to do so is no man's right...Lulu gets respect because in this unfortunate game he has, and has won the power...

Orga777

2008-09-25, 15:41

ANYONE who wants to enact a plan which the intended goal is killing millions or even billions to bring about whatever type of result they think the world needs or requires has a some level of a God Complex…Now he might not have one in the truest sense of the word, but understated or fully blasted, using your power to destroy or re-shape the world for it’s own good (What you believe is GOOD) and having the power to do this (and precisely acting upon it), IS playing GOD…

Remember though, he said he would do it only if people want peace from him. So it is a loop hole really. And the only reason this is so is because he lost faith in the future and humanity as a whole. I already went into reasons why I think that is so as well. Just my view on things. I don;t think he always thought this way (if indeed Nuking the world was indeed his "real" plan and not one of his masks.)

wingdarkness

2008-09-25, 15:58

Remember though, he said he would do it only if people want peace from him.

Then we get into a DESTINY PLAN scenerio where you have to get every man, woman, and child, to vote on their own fate...As fabulous as Schnizel is I don't see him knocking on every doorway with "Who wants to FLEIJA the world"? questionnaire surveys...You can't determine what the world wants on a whim...This is a very complex goal that requires far more than an idealistic longing...That's why the best intentions often cause the worst results...Schniezel is playing off of his own interpretation of the world...The world isn't acting for itself at all...Bitter poetry and idealistic irony leaves much to be desired when talking about what you know is best for billions of people (Again mostly because you have the power to achieve this end)...

Orga777

2008-09-25, 16:00

Then we get into a DESTINY PLAN scenerio where you have to get every man, woman, and child, to vote on their own fate...As fabulous as Schnizel is I don't see him knocking on every doorway with "Who wants to FLEIJA the world"? questionnaire surveys...You can't determine what the world wants on a whim...This is a very complex goal that requires far more than an idealistic longing...That's why the best intentions often cause the worst results...Schniezel is playing off of his own interpretation of the world...The world isn't acting for itself at all...Bitter poetry and idealistic irony leaves much to be desired when talking about what you know is best for billions of people (Again mostly because you have the power to achieve this end)...

Again though, all of this is explained why in demon's and my discussion. Also remember that I don't think that was his real goal either.

wingdarkness

2008-09-25, 16:14

Again though, all of this is explained why in demon's and my discussion. Also remember that I don't think that was his real goal either.

Your debate with him notwithstanding, my only point was from when you said it isn't true that Schnizel wants to play God inwhich I disagree...I don't see much difference between Him, Charles, or Lulu...It's just that Lulu beat them and to the victor goes the spoils of that victory...All of them are using the arrogance of man despite their intentions...So again I ask, who has the right? If this is a debate about playing God by default you can slide with that, however my point remains...

Orga777

2008-09-25, 16:29

Your debate with him notwithstanding, my only point was from when you said it isn't true that Schnizel wants to play God inwhich I disagree...I don't see much difference between Him, Charles, or Lulu...It's just that Lulu beat them and to the victor goes the spoils of that victory...All of them are using the arrogance of man despite their intentions...So again I ask, who has the right? If this is a debate about playing God by default you can slide with that, however my point remains...

Meh, that is fair I guess.

Anh_Minh

2008-09-25, 16:32

Kanon can't do anything really. He is nothing more than a aide and Schneizel is the Second Prince and the Prime Minister (and really in charge of the entire nation since his father is so closed off.) Hell, does he even know the real Schneizel? Schneizel has to keep on his strong persona all the time because he has no choice but to. He can't look weak in the Britannian system.

Yeah, exactly. Schneizel never had the support Lelouch had and it was due to where he was and his position. Lelouch could get that support in his position.

Then he really sucks at choosing his entourage, or making use of it. As fatal a flaw as any, in a leader. If even his closest "friends" are just putting more pressure on him to appear perfect, without even being able to support him... well, you get the kind of nutjobs who's ready to kill two billions people out of sheer frustration. Or so you say.

This isn't true. Schneizel doesn't WANT to be god. His exact words were "Then I will be god... If people want world peace from me that is." Schenizel is like that. he does what people expect of him. If people expect him to be a god, he will be a god. He isn't selfish enough to be arrogant enough to think he IS a god. Remember what he said "It is a perfect time to get rid of the Black Knights." "Oh, I can' do that. It would be greedy/ a desire." He does things not for himself. He does things for what he thinks is good for people. And that is because he never had the guiding lights Lelouch had when he fell after certain events.

I'm pretty sure the people don't want to be nuked, so that's already two billion people's wishes being trampled underfoot. And that of all their friends and family. And anyone who isn't a raving sociopath. Hell, is there anyone in favor of Schneizel's little plan? Aside from himself and Kanon, I mean?

"It's what people wants" can only take you so far. Some liberticide law that ensures the trains run on time? Sure. Killing half the planet? Not so much.

Orga777

2008-09-25, 16:42

Then he really sucks at choosing his entourage, or making use of it. As fatal a flaw as any, in a leader. If even his closest "friends" are just putting more pressure on him to appear perfect, without even being able to support him... well, you get the kind of nutjobs who's ready to kill two billions people out of sheer frustration. Or so you say.

No, it isn't his entourage that does, but none of them can really help them since I don;t think they feel it is their place. Remember, they are all below him and are in the Britannian Military.

The whole reason I said that is because unlike Lelouch who had emotional support to carry on down his path, Schneizel never did have that and could never drop his mask for a moment since in the Britannian government, showing weakness is BAD.

I'm pretty sure the people don't want to be nuked, so that's already two billion people's wishes being trampled underfoot. And that of all their friends and family. And anyone who isn't a raving sociopath. Hell, is there anyone in favor of Schneizel's little plan? Aside from himself and Kanon, I mean?

"It's what people wants" can only take you so far. Some liberticide law that ensures the trains run on time? Sure. Killing half the planet? Not so much.

Except in Schneizel's view lives are meaningless in front of Peace. Even his OWN. is he wrong? Yes. Is it unhealthy to think that way? Most definitely. But what I am saying is that certain things pushed him down this path and he had no way to get back out unlike Lelouch.

wingdarkness

2008-09-25, 16:43

Meh, that is fair I guess.

Lulz, I've never seen fairness met with such indifference^o^...

Orga777

2008-09-25, 16:44

LOL, I've never seen fairness met with such indifference^o^...

lol. That is just one of my gimmicks.:heh:
But you did raise good points and I can see where you are coming from.;)

Jakehammer

2008-09-25, 16:56

I half expected Nunally to open her eyes and have two Geass symbols in them. :heh:

Anh_Minh

2008-09-25, 17:19

No, it isn't his entourage that does, but none of them can really help them since I don;t think they feel it is their place. Remember, they are all below him and are in the Britannian Military.

The whole reason I said that is because unlike Lelouch who had emotional support to carry on down his path, Schneizel never did have that and could never drop his mask for a moment since in the Britannian government, showing weakness is BAD.
You don't get my point. That he wasn't able to find, or make, trustworthy friends in front of whom he could relieve the pressure, bounce ideas, and so on, makes him a terrible leader. It's not like the heavens came down and forbade people to befriend him. It's just that he, himself, wasn't able to make friends. Or so you say.

Lelouch also had justified trust issues... which bit him in the ass a few times. But he overcame them, in part.

Except in Schneizel's view lives are meaningless in front of Peace. Even his OWN. is he wrong? Yes. Is it unhealthy to think that way? Most definitely. But what I am saying is that certain things pushed him down this path and he had no way to get back out unlike Lelouch.

And what I'm saying is that "it's what people wants", "he acts out of altruism" are bullshit. It's what he wants, plain and simple. Just because he's not very attached to his own life (and it looks like an informed characteristic more than anything else) doesn't change that simple fact: he made the plan, on his own, knowing damn well nobody would accept it.

Orga777

2008-09-25, 17:29

You don't get my point. That he wasn't able to find, or make, trustworthy friends in front of whom he could relieve the pressure, bounce ideas, and so on, makes him a terrible leader. It's not like the heavens came down and forbade people to befriend him. It's just that he, himself, wasn't able to make friends. Or so you say.

Lelouch also had justified trust issues... which bit him in the ass a few times. But he overcame them, in part.

It obviously runs in the family. Trust Issues that is. The only difference is that in Britannia it is doubled. Lelouch on the other hand at least had someone that knew pretty much everything (C.C.)

And what I'm saying is that "it's what people wants", "he acts out of altruism" are bullshit. It's what he wants, plain and simple. Just because he's not very attached to his own life (and it looks like an informed characteristic more than anything else) doesn't change that simple fact: he made the plan, on his own, knowing damn well nobody would accept it.

And I have to disagree. He is just taking extremist measures to get what people want. And what people want is Peace. And to Schneizel this is the ONLY way to get true Peace. The reason he thinks this is because, again, it comes back to him not caring about people, the human race, or emotion. The ends justify the means is what he follows. Just like others in this series. Schneizel thinks the world should be run with a System and the only way it can prevent war.

And as I said before, a lot has happened to push him to this and what Cornelia said is not negated either.

Spectacular_Insanity

2008-09-25, 21:45

wasn't she shot in the legs though? O_o I thought that Charles just geassed her into believing she couldn't see, and the leg injuries were a result of the gunshot wounds...
She was shot in the legs. Only the blindness was Geass-related.

She was NOT shot in the legs. Again, her memories were manipulated by the emperor. Did you not see the long flashback in which Marianne and Charles' relationship was explained, and how V.V. killed Marianne (which was when Marianne transferred her conciousness to Anya)? Nunnally was not with Marianne when she was killed, at least according to Marianne. It was a device used by Charles to protect Nunnally from being a plausable witness. If V.V. thought that Nunnally had seen anything, he would have killed her too. I don't remember anyone in the show saying that Nunnally got shot in the legs. Not to mention, how the hell did she get back up in her chair? Somehow I doubt that she has the upper body strength to lift herself with just her arms.

morbosfist

2008-09-25, 21:56

She was NOT shot in the legs. Again, her memories were manipulated by the emperor. Did you not see the long flashback in which Marianne and Charles' relationship was explained, and how V.V. killed Marianne (which was when Marianne transferred her conciousness to Anya)? Nunnally was not with Marianne when she was killed, at least according to Marianne. It was a device used by Charles to protect Nunnally from being a plausable witness. If V.V. thought that Nunnally had seen anything, he would have killed her too. I don't remember anyone in the show saying that Nunnally got shot in the legs. Not to mention, how the hell did she get back up in her chair? Somehow I doubt that she has the upper body strength to lift herself with just her arms.Yes, she WAS shot in the legs. Lelouch was there to see it, or at least the aftermath of it, and they did not modify his memories. You can even see the wounds in her legs. This is all during the flashback explanation by the way. Nunnally was used as a witness during the fake assassination, which is why she was hurt. Charles blinded her to make sure she'd never be able to figure out the truth.

Spectacular_Insanity

2008-09-25, 22:11

Yes, she WAS shot in the legs. Lelouch was there to see it, or at least the aftermath of it, and they did not modify his memories. You can even see the wounds in her legs. This is all during the flashback explanation by the way. Nunnally was used as a witness during the fake assassination, which is why she was hurt. Charles blinded her to make sure she'd never be able to figure out the truth.

I still don't believe it. Nunnally was not shown in the flashback for the second season. In the first season she was, but not in the altered one for Episode 21. V.V. had planned for Nunnally to be the witness (as said directly by V.V.) to terrorists killing Marianne, then they cut directly to Nunnally being pinned underneath Marianne's dead body. She hadn't been there when Marianne had originally been shot by V.V. I believe that she was deliberately planted there, and either Lelouch's memories were altered, or his stumbling across Nunnally and Marianne was completely by coincidence (though I am also inclined to believe that Lelouch's memories were unaltered at that time, but considering the possibilities, the former cannot be completely ruled out). I suppose it's possible that Nunnaly was placed there then shot, but it wouldn't make any sense because we know she was blinded by Geass, but if she had been placed there deliberately then it wouldn't be necessary to shoot her because she would have already been Geassed.

I will state for the third time that another reason that I don't think she was shot in the legs because she got back up into her chair. No offense to Nunnally, but I don't think she would have been able to do that without the use of her legs, which she wouldn't be able to recover the use of if they had been shot versus disabled with Geass.

morbosfist

2008-09-25, 22:22

I still don't believe it. Nunnally was not shown in the flashback for the second season. In the first season she was, but not in the altered one for Episode 21.She was there for the fake assassination, not the real one, but that doesn't change the fact that bullets went through the window. It had to look real, after all.

V.V. had planned for Nunnally to be the witness (as said directly by V.V.) to terrorists killing Marianne, then they cut directly to Nunnally being pinned underneath Marianne's dead body. She hadn't been there when Marianne had originally been shot by V.V. I believe that she was deliberately planted there, and either Lelouch's memories were altered, or his stumbling across Nunnally and Marianne was completely by coincidence (though I am also inclined to believe that Lelouch's memories were unaltered at that time, but considering the possibilities, the former cannot be completely ruled out).Not only planned, succeeded. She was the witness to her mother's death by being by her side, and hence was planted there purposefully by V.V. She got hit by the hail of gunfire even though Marianne's body took the brunt of it. However Lelouch came about it, his memories of the incident were not altered. There was no need to alter them, and they would have mentioned it if they did.

I suppose it's possible that Nunnaly was placed there then shot, but it wouldn't make any sense because we know she was blinded by Geass, but if she had been placed there deliberately then it wouldn't be necessary to shoot her because she would have already been Geassed.She was placed there by V.V. and Geassed later on by the Emperor. Direct quote.
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/762/ep21nunnallynt4.th.jpg (http://img206.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ep21nunnallynt4.jpg)

I will state for the third time that another reason that I don't think she was shot in the legs because she got back up into her chair. No offense to Nunnally, but I don't think she would have been able to do that without the use of her legs, which she wouldn't be able to recover the use of if they had been shot versus disabled with Geass.It is quite possible to climb back into a wheelchair without the use of one's legs. Nunnally even escapes by her arms alone in one of the picture or sound dramas. I forget which. Basing your argument on this is flawed.

SoldierOfDarkness

2008-09-25, 22:24

I will state for the third time that another reason that I don't think she was shot in the legs because she got back up into her chair. No offense to Nunnally, but I don't think she would have been able to do that without the use of her legs, which she wouldn't be able to recover the use of if they had been shot versus disabled with Geass.

Clearly you've never seen Forest Gump before have you?

Spectacular_Insanity

2008-09-25, 23:06

It is quite possible to climb back into a wheelchair without the use of one's legs. Nunnally even escapes by her arms alone in one of the picture or sound dramas. I forget which. Basing your argument on this is flawed.

Not really. She's a little girl who hasn't had much physical activity in her life. I simply don't think she'd be strong enough to lift herself into the chair without the use of her legs.

Spectacular_Insanity

2008-09-25, 23:07

Clearly you've never seen Forest Gump before have you?

I have, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand. Nunally =/= former vietnam soldier.

morbosfist

2008-09-25, 23:07

Not really. She's a little girl who hasn't had much physical activity in her life. I simply don't think she'd be strong enough to lift herself into the chair without the use of her legs.Nevertheless, it is not impossible, and she had a while to do it. The fact remains that she was shot and injured. It wasn't Geass that crippled her.

Spectacular_Insanity

2008-09-25, 23:11

morbosfist

2008-09-25, 23:14

Nevertheless, I still believe you are wrong. if what you say is true, then they shot Nunnally after she had been Geassed, either before or after she was planted at the scene. Again, what's the purpose of shooting her if she's already been Geassed? I assume she didn't willingly play along with V.V.You've got the sequence of events all mixed up, which is why you're incapable of accepting the obvious. Marianne was killed by V.V. then Nunnally was set up as a witness so it would look like terrorists killed her. Charles Geassed her after that so she would not learn the truth and be targeted by V.V.

SoldierOfDarkness

2008-09-25, 23:45

I have, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand. Nunally =/= former vietnam soldier.

You said that there's no way she could get back into her chair with her legs useless.

Lt. Dan fell out of his chair and got back into his anyways, granted it was hard but he did it anyways therefore it is not impossible.

Then there's Gattaca...

Nevertheless, I still believe you are wrong. if what you say is true, then they shot Nunnally after she had been Geassed, either before or after she was planted at the scene. Again, what's the purpose of shooting her if she's already been Geassed? I assume she didn't willingly play along with V.V.

Nope after Marianne was killed VV called his boys in to start the cover up and to use Nunnally as a witness.

That's why you see machine gun fire through the window, to make it look like terrorists fired from there and hence Nunnally was hit hard. In fact we see blood and holes in her LEG.

Charles did not find out until AFTERWARDS in which he asked VV and he replied that he had nothing to do with it.

Jibade

2008-09-26, 01:05

You've got the sequence of events all mixed up, which is why you're incapable of accepting the obvious. Marianne was killed by V.V. then Nunnally was set up as a witness so it would look like terrorists killed her. Charles Geassed her after that so she would not learn the truth and be targeted by V.V.
I can see your point but it can also not make sense, maybe someone can articulate. She was blinded so she will not see V.V. which may not trigger some memory that is just my explanation and destroying identifying the culprits. That makes sense to protect her and VV but why taking away her walking what purpose does that serve. How does that protect her?

morbosfist

2008-09-26, 01:14

I can see your point but it can also not make sense, maybe someone can articulate. She was blinded so she will not see V.V. which may not trigger some memory that is just my explanation and destroying identifying the culprits. That makes sense to protect her and VV but why taking away her walking what purpose does that serve. How does that protect her?She was blinded so she'd never even be capable of recognizing the truth. From her point of view, there were details she very well could have noticed if ever allowed to reexamine the scene.

As for taking away her ability to walk, it wasn't intentional. Watch the fake assassination scene. They poured automatic gunfire through every window at the staircase. Nunnally got hit in the legs. It's that simple.

D a m i e n

2008-09-26, 03:09

Wow i just watched the eps.
All i can say is : i m waiting for sunday's eps to end this serie.
This eps was just horrible for me. I cant wait to CGr2 end and finnally see them pull away the life support plug.
The serie went down the toilet at around eps 18 or so.
I hope G00 wont be as bad.

Anh_Minh

2008-09-26, 03:20

It obviously runs in the family. Trust Issues that is. The only difference is that in Britannia it is doubled. Lelouch on the other hand at least had someone that knew pretty much everything (C.C.)

So you blame it on his environment while growing up. That's fine. It still means he'd make a terrible ruler.

And I have to disagree. He is just taking extremist measures to get what people want. And what people want is Peace. And to Schneizel this is the ONLY way to get true Peace. The reason he thinks this is because, again, it comes back to him not caring about people, the human race, or emotion. The ends justify the means is what he follows. Just like others in this series. Schneizel thinks the world should be run with a System and the only way it can prevent war.

And as I said before, a lot has happened to push him to this and what Cornelia said is not negated either.
Buuuullllllll. People want a lot of things. He picked one at the exclusion of all others, most notably their desire to not get killed. That was his choice, his will. Not "the people's".

I still don't believe it. Nunnally was not shown in the flashback for the second season. In the first season she was, but not in the altered one for Episode 21. V.V. had planned for Nunnally to be the witness (as said directly by V.V.) to terrorists killing Marianne, then they cut directly to Nunnally being pinned underneath Marianne's dead body. She hadn't been there when Marianne had originally been shot by V.V. I believe that she was deliberately planted there, and either Lelouch's memories were altered, or his stumbling across Nunnally and Marianne was completely by coincidence (though I am also inclined to believe that Lelouch's memories were unaltered at that time, but considering the possibilities, the former cannot be completely ruled out). I suppose it's possible that Nunnaly was placed there then shot, but it wouldn't make any sense because we know she was blinded by Geass, but if she had been placed there deliberately then it wouldn't be necessary to shoot her because she would have already been Geassed.

I will state for the third time that another reason that I don't think she was shot in the legs because she got back up into her chair. No offense to Nunnally, but I don't think she would have been able to do that without the use of her legs, which she wouldn't be able to recover the use of if they had been shot versus disabled with Geass.

It's been... stated? Implied? even before we learned about her geassed state, that she can walk a bit. Not far, but probably enough to get back on her chair.

Schneizel

2008-09-26, 05:27

:words:
...this is more a question of whether the method is important or not, I think.

SaintessHeart

2008-09-26, 07:06

Off Topic : I have never seen a good ruler in my life. Most of them take either useless or extreme measures to get things done. Plus they set politics squarely on their own personal formulae and perceptions. *double pun intended*

I want more catfights between Kallen and C.C. That pink Lancelot vs Guren scene is too one-sided and way too short.

z0rr023

2008-09-26, 07:50

if lulu has to die....at least die with honor..., not like light in death note, his death is pathetic.....

gonzo562

2008-09-26, 08:16

if lulu has to die....at least die with honor..., not like light in death note, his death is pathetic.....

lulu definitely gonna die lol

i predicted that since season 2 episode 1 ;D

Orga777

2008-09-26, 08:52

So you blame it on his environment while growing up. That's fine. It still means he'd make a terrible ruler.

Right. He would make a terrible ruler... as he currently is and how the world is in the current state. BUT THAT WAS NOT MY POINT. :heh:
My point from the beginning was Cornelia's point. That in a DIFFERENT environment he WOULD make a great ruler.

Buuuullllllll. People want a lot of things. He picked one at the exclusion of all others, most notably their desire to not get killed. That was his choice, his will. Not "the people's".

Because, again, he saw lives as irrelivent in front of peace. To him Peace > Everything. And to achieve that Peace, if it meant sacrificing lives, so be it as long as it got the job done. Again, he is WRONG, but that is how he is.

Anh_Minh

2008-09-26, 09:04

Right. He would make a terrible ruler... as he currently is and how the world is in the current state. BUT THAT WAS NOT MY POINT. :heh:
My point from the beginning was Cornelia's point. That in a DIFFERENT environment he WOULD make a great ruler.

If he'd been raised in a different environment, he'd be a different person, thus making that statement meaningless. Schneizel, as he is, as he was even before the SAZ, was unfit to be a ruler, under any environment but one that doesn't need a great ruler. Because, according to your own description of him, he can't take the pressure, and can't get help.

Because, again, he saw lives as irrelivent in front of peace. To him Peace > Everything. And to achieve that Peace, if it meant sacrificing lives, so be it as long as it got the job done. Again, he is WRONG, but that is how he is.
I get that. What I'm saying is that his assessment that lives are less important than world peace, is his value. Not the people's. He isn't acting for the people, but for himself.

Orga777

2008-09-26, 09:10

If he'd been raised in a different environment, he'd be a different person, thus making that statement meaningless. Schneizel, as he is, as he was even before the SAZ, was unfit to be a ruler, under any environment but one that doesn't need a great ruler. Because, according to your own description of him, he can't take the pressure, and can't get help.

Not really. Before the SAZ I think Schneizel was very fit. But after that happened he just lost it all and tossed away his emotions. If that never happened who knows how different everything would be. One event changed the course of this entire series more than any other, and that was IT.

And look at it this way, if Schneizel had the same experiences Lelouch had, how do you think things would have turned out? Personally I think things would have been BETTER really since unlike lelouch, Schneizel is not really selfish in that way. Just my view really. You don't have to agree with it though.

I get that. What I'm saying is that his assessment that lives are less important than world peace, is his value. Not the people's. He isn't acting for the people, but for himself.

I can agree, but also disagree. Some people just think that people will never learn and have to be forced to learn. Yes it is his VALUES, but he is not doing it for himself. Everyone has different ideals and values they try to shape the world with. I won't deny that, but is he doing it for himself? I don't think he is.

Schneizel

2008-09-26, 09:24

And you consider the SAZ the turning point where he threw things away why? He didn't care about stuff even before the SAZ. On DVD magazine 02, the narrator informs us that when Gawain was stolen, Schneizel really didn't care, and figured that he could be lazy and rely on Zero to analyze the Kamine Island data for him.

Anh_Minh

2008-09-26, 09:35

Not really. Before the SAZ I think Schneizel was very fit.
There's no real account of Schneizel changing at any point, so I don't know that I'd blame the SAZ, but whatever.

But after that happened he just lost it all and tossed away his emotions. If that never happened who knows how different everything would be. One event changed the course of this entire series more than any other, and that was IT.

And look at it this way, if Schneizel had the same experiences Lelouch had, how do you think things would have turned out? Personally I think things would have been BETTER really since unlike lelouch, Schneizel is not really selfish in that way. Just my view really. You don't have to agree with it though.
If we allow for too much change in personality, "he'd have been a very good X" loses all meaning. Change the environment, and who knows? Maybe Tamaki would have been a great ruler. With Nina at his side as a happy couple.

I can agree, but also disagree. Some people just think that people will never learn and have to be forced to learn. Yes it is his VALUES, but he is not doing it for himself. Everyone has different ideals and values they try to shape the world with. I won't deny that, but is he doing it for himself? I don't think he is.
To be accurate, what I disagree with is the idea that he's doing stuff because people want him to.

Aside from that, the difference between altruism and satisfying one's own sense of esthetics is something I don't want to get into... except to say that killing two billion people isn't altruistic by any reasonable definition of the word.

demon_god04

2008-09-26, 09:36

...this is more a question of whether the method is important or not, I think.

I believe there are just fundamental differences in what we think make a great ruler. From Orga's post I get the sense that he believes the environment and cirumstances raise a leader to greatness where as personally I in earlier posts and Anh Minh (correct me if I am wrong) believe that leaders rise above whatever circumstances. That only when they are tested by those dark circumstances and proved that they can rise above them can they be considered truly great leaders.

In Schneizel's case he lost his way because of being exposed to the darkness in humanity and become disillusioned with it. That in itself showed that he crumbled under the pressure.

Anh_Minh

2008-09-26, 09:41

Schneizel

2008-09-26, 09:43

Why are we trying to gauge things about his childhood or upbringing or [whatever] when we really know nothing about that.

(...seriously.)

Sports72Xtrm

2008-09-26, 09:44

So has everyone forgiven Nina? I mean yeah she invented Freya but she invented a countermeasure for it which kinda even things out.

demon_god04

2008-09-26, 09:46

That is one of the problems when arguing about Schneizel though, he is just too underdeveloped that anything about if and when he changed are just conjectures on our part. Sure Cornelia said what she did but does she know the real Schneizel? We the viewers have been given even less information about him so it is hard to argue about it.

SaintessHeart

2008-09-26, 09:50

I can sort of agree that some people would make great rulers in some circumstances, and not so great in others. I just can't imagine circumstances in which Schneizel's casual disregard for life would make him great, and can't see how anything Orga brought up excuses him.

I can agree that different circumstances during his childhood and even later would have produced a different man, who might have been a good ruler... but I don't see the meaning in saying that, since that's true for practically anybody. Maybe he'd have been a great ruler. Maybe he'd have been an axe murderer. Or a hikkikomori. Who the hell knows?

Maybe he will be a owner of a (loli) harem. I think that is the CLOSEST outcome in all scenarios since he seems to be always surrounded like tons of cute girls like C.C (amnesiac and non-amnesiac ones), Kallen, Kaguya, Tianzi, Nina, Anya, Shirley, just to name a few.

As for Nina, I think she will probably create a huge device that disables all FLEIJAs in a large radius, like the N-Jammer in GS.

demon_god04

2008-09-26, 09:51

I can sort of agree that some people would make great rulers in some circumstances, and not so great in others. I just can't imagine circumstances in which Schneizel's casual disregard for life would make him great, and can't see how anything Orga brought up excuses him.

I can agree that different circumstances during his childhood and even later would have produced a different man, who might have been a good ruler... but I don't see the meaning in saying that, since that's true for practically anybody. Maybe he'd have been a great ruler. Maybe he'd have been an axe murderer. Or a hikkikomori. Who the hell knows?

To me though sure the environment and how a child is brought up can determined what kind of ruler he becomes. But consider what being a ruler over the people means, you have the power to decide the fate of millions of people and your actions determine their lives. Do you want someone in that position who cannot see the potential of the future because he is blinded by the darkness of one of the fundamental natures of humanity?

Great rulers are born when the circumstances need them to be great rulers, when things are not perfect, when people need someone to lead and guide them. Not just when things are perfect.

Orga777

2008-09-26, 10:00

Why are we trying to gauge things about his childhood or upbringing or [whatever] when we really know nothing about that.

(...seriously.)

Because I am bored and feel like posting things that people may deem out in left field. :p

But really, I think everything I posted in the last four or five pages in this discussion fits. I mean, what would the point be of showing Cornelia saying that in the first place if it didn't mean something? Hell, that isn't the first time it happened either. Bismarck said something similar in 21 and then Lelouch keeps him alive for what reason? Hell, he Geasses him not long after what Cornelia said so it means he may have came to the same conclusion.

I also think he did care more about things Pre-SAZ. Sure he didn't care about the Gawain, but that is just an object and a machine. If you go way back early in this discussion, I said Schneizel hinted that he knew the future of Euphemia's plans for the SAZ, something no one else did (during his discussion with Cornelia Ep. 22 I believe.) ANd then he DID seem genuinely bothered by what happened. Yes Schneizel is the Mask Master, but if he can so easily put on a Mask each time something like that happened, he sure didn't do it any OTHER time when he very well could have.

So adding it all up, this is the conclusion I came too. It is just my view on things. I am hoping for MORE in the next episode though.

demon_god04

2008-09-26, 10:01

Because I am bored and feel like posting things that people may seem out in left field. :p

I'd like to admit at this time that I originally started this debate with you because my morning lecture was cancelled and I was bored in the computer lab.... :heh:

Anh_Minh

2008-09-26, 10:05

To me though sure the environment and how a child is brought up can determined what kind of ruler he becomes. But consider what being a ruler over the people means, you have the power to decide the fate of millions of people and your actions determine their lives. Do you want someone in that position who cannot see the potential of the future because he is blinded by the darkness of one of the fundamental natures of humanity?
But that's the thing. Maybe, if raised differently, Schneizel would have been a terminal optimist. If we're going - as Orga was wont to do - to change anything and everything... We can conclude anything. It just isn't very meaningful.

Great rulers are born when the circumstances need them to be great rulers, when things are not perfect, when people need someone to lead and guide them. Not just when things are perfect.
I agree. But do we need the same kind of guy when the Threat To The World As We Know It is a war, as when it's some kind of economic crisis? I don't know. Maybe not.

Utau

2008-09-26, 10:09

As for Nina, I think she will probably create a huge device that disables all FLEIJAs in a large radius, like the N-Jammer in GS.

so next time, they will fire multiple-FREIJAs at once? :joke:

as for letting Nina off the hook, she pretty much deserve the chance to be forgiven, I did last episode already. She had a change of heart in this episode, she helped Euphy's murderer and cooperated with him.

demon_god04

2008-09-26, 10:10

But that's the thing. Maybe, if raised differently, Schneizel would have been a terminal optimist. If we're going - as Orga was wont to do - to change anything and everything... We can conclude anything. It just isn't very meaningful.

Even if he is a terminal optimist it still would not exactly elevate him to the status of a great ruler. But point taken.

I agree. But do we need the same kind of guy when the Threat To The World As We Know It is a war, as when it's some kind of economic crisis? I don't know. Maybe not.

Different circumstances require different kinds of leaders but the fundamental idea is how a leader deals with the problems that arise in their reign and how they lead their people to a better future makes them great leaders.

Schneizel

2008-09-26, 10:13

Do you want someone in that position who cannot see the potential of the future because he is blinded by the darkness of one of the fundamental natures of humanity?
And what makes you think he's blinded by anything?

I also think he did care more about things Pre-SAZ. Sure he didn't care about the Gawain, but that is just an object and a machine. If you go way back early in this discussion, I said Schneizel hinted that he knew the future of Euphemia's plans for the SAZ, something no one else did (during his discussion with Cornelia Ep. 22 I believe.) ANd then he DID seem genuinely bothered by what happened. Yes Schneizel is the Mask Master, but if he can so easily put on a Mask each time something like that happened, he sure didn't do it any OTHER time when he very well could have.
His care level is the same, and this is indicated by how his China stuff, which he establishes before the SAZ massacre, carries over into R2.

Do you really think he gives a shit about such a differentiation like "it's just a machine"?

Also, masks? As far as I'm concerned, Schneizel's line at the end of R2 23 is ironic to how he got owned in R2 24.

Edit: You know, you guys seem to think that he's more complex than he really is. It's like you're looking for something that isn't there. There's a reason why Lelouch won in 24.

Sports72Xtrm

2008-09-26, 10:17

If he'd been raised in a different environment, he'd be a different person, thus making that statement meaningless. Schneizel, as he is, as he was even before the SAZ, was unfit to be a ruler, under any environment but one that doesn't need a great ruler. Because, according to your own description of him, he can't take the pressure, and can't get help.

I get that. What I'm saying is that his assessment that lives are less important than world peace, is his value. Not the people's. He isn't acting for the people, but for himself.

To say that Shniezel doesn't care about lives I'm not so sure. I mean it is implied that he spared Cornelia even though she raised her sword against him. I mean if you are disciplining the whole world can you allow yourself to be soft? If acts of terrorism occur then I don't think Shniezel would punish them with Freia. But if government and armies raise armed conflict then technically a launch of Freia is justified. Shniezel way is similar to Lelouch's way and I really don't see a difference between their leadership capabilities at all other than Lelouch has a magic power which can only affect so many people in one specific area.

Orga777

2008-09-26, 10:27

His care level is the same, and this is indicated by how his China stuff, which he establishes before the SAZ massacre, carries over into R2.

Do you really think he gives a shit about such a differentiation like "it's just a machine"?

Also, masks? As far as I'm concerned, Schneizel's line at the end of R2 23 is ironic to how he got owned in R2 24.

Edit: You know, you guys seem to think that he's more complex than he really is. It's like you're looking for something that isn't there. There's a reason why Lelouch won in 24.

And I have to disagree here.:p

Wintersun

2008-09-26, 10:32

awesome episode, i'm glad none of my fave chars died :)

Anh_Minh

2008-09-26, 10:37

Different circumstances require different kinds of leaders but the fundamental idea is how a leader deals with the problems that arise in their reign and how they lead their people to a better future makes them great leaders.
Agreed.
To say that Shniezel doesn't care about lives I'm not so sure. I mean it is implied that he spared Cornelia even though she raised her sword against him. I mean if you are disciplining the whole world can you allow yourself to be soft? If acts of terrorism occur then I don't think Shniezel would punish them with Freia. But if government and armies raise armed conflict then technically a launch of Freia is justified. Shniezel way is similar to Lelouch's way and I really don't see a difference between their leadership capabilities at all other than Lelouch has a magic power which can only affect so many people in one specific area.

He may have a relatively soft spot for his family, or maybe just the deaths that happen in front of him. But he killed millions just to prove he was serious, and proposed to kill billions to prove he was really serious.

That goes so far beyond "not being soft" there's a visible red-shift.

Orga777

2008-09-26, 10:44

He may have a relatively soft spot for his family, or maybe just the deaths that happen in front of him. But he killed millions just to prove he was serious, and proposed to kill billions to prove he was really serious.

That goes so far beyond "not being soft" there's a visible red-shift.

Or it could be that plan to "Nuke the world!" was a mask he put on... Like I said a while ago. :p

Anh_Minh

2008-09-26, 10:46

And that changes what? Pendragon's still dead.

Orga777

2008-09-26, 10:48

And that changes what? Pendragon's still dead.

Yes, Pendragon is still dead. The reason it was done though was to, again, set up Lelouch into a final battle. One of those last-resort things I mentioned a couple of weeks ago as well.:p

Anh_Minh

2008-09-26, 10:53

All he had to do was show up. There was no need to kill millions.

Orga777

2008-09-26, 10:57

All he had to do was show up. There was no need to kill millions.

Meh. Like I said before. Never said he was right. I can see everyone's problem with it and it is a fair complaint.

hero147

2008-09-26, 12:37

I think he has a soft spot for Cornelia, all the rest of the royal family can rot for all he cares. He discarded Nunnally.

AceD

2008-09-26, 15:22

whaaa no more diethard :(, he actually made the media look intresting, shame shame

Orga777

2008-09-26, 15:23

whaaa no more diethard :(, he actually made the media look intresting, shame shame

Yes it is a shame. I wanted to see his Award Winning Documentary. XD

wingdarkness

2008-09-26, 15:52

whaaa no more diethard :(, he actually made the media look intresting, shame shame

Yes Diethart was a great character IMO…Having a Journalism background like him I always loved his forthright attitude in-terms of following and elevating the “Zero” story…Unfortunately in his final moments he got completely shattered because alas he was totally unworthy of the one-thing he wished he was respected enuff to receive…It’s funny, because of his journalistic nature he was gonna always follow the story that brought about the most dynamic endgame, but it’s because of that literary hunger that he was never needed to be geassed (In some respects he was Lulu’s best minion without Geass)…You couldn’t just geass Diethart and tell him to always push propaganda or circumvent the news to help Zero, because you would have been limiting his true ability (Which would have limited Zero’s narrative and overall effect)…So in death I guess I’ll take Lulu’s F’d up final sentence to him as somewhat of a compliment, because Diethart had an ability that aided Lulu much more in it’s natural-state without the effect of geass…

His exit was still the best dramatic part of the ep to me…Poor bastard :upset:…

CapoExecutor

2008-09-26, 18:37

Any chance that we'll see a Kaguya/Tianzi pairing?

morbosfist

2008-09-26, 18:38

Unless Xingke decides to go for a three-way, no.

Dilla

2008-09-26, 18:58

Yes it is a shame. I wanted to see his Award Winning Documentary. XDIf it's found and completed, it would win a award. Dead people are always shoo-ins for awards, them and actors playing starring as mentally disabled people.:p

KennethJ

2008-09-26, 20:31

morbosfist

2008-09-26, 20:34

Question, not sure if this was asked or answered before since theres 80+ pages

but if the meeting between Lelouch and Schneizel was a recording, how can he ask questions and answer questions if it was a freaking recording???
And his personal subordinates get jumped by his own guards and decided to not make a sound to warn him???

Code Geass just doesn't make sense sometimesLelouch recorded the conversation in a way that predicted Schneziel's responses. Part of it was directing the conversation in such a way that Schneziel would ask and answer how Lelouch wanted, giving the illusion that Schenizel was talking to a real person when in fact he wasn't. As for his subordinates, they were drugged, and so didn't make any noise.

KennethJ

2008-09-26, 20:45

Lelouch recorded the conversation in a way that predicted Schneziel's responses. Part of it was directing the conversation in such a way that Schneziel would ask and answer how Lelouch wanted, giving the illusion that Schenizel was talking to a real person when in fact he wasn't. As for his subordinates, they were drugged, and so didn't make any noise.

So he got the correct timing and pause between each sentence down too?
This is highly unlikely.
And where do you see that they were drugged? Diethard was standing up pretty well.
Edit: sorry i see the refrain drugs. Still doesn't stop their vocal cords. Probably just inhibits their movements.

morbosfist

2008-09-26, 20:47

So he got the correct timing and pause between each sentence down too?
This is highly unlikely.
And where do you see that they were drugged? Diethard was standing up pretty well.Look at the guards closely. They have drug injectors in their hands. That's why Diethard's vision was shakey. As for the conversation, yes it stretches belief, but that's how it worked. Same as with Mao in season 1, but more complicated.

LustfulEnvy

2008-09-26, 21:30

By using Shniezels nature as a basis he was able to predict what he would say. He also did that to mao. I never noticed the guards drugged though.

blewin

2008-09-26, 22:27

uh.... and I thought 24 was the end. Now gotta wait for another ep.

Jeffry2009

2008-09-27, 00:24

She was there for the fake assassination, not the real one, but that doesn't change the fact that bullets went through the window. It had to look real, after all.

Not only planned, succeeded. She was the witness to her mother's death by being by her side, and hence was planted there purposefully by V.V. She got hit by the hail of gunfire even though Marianne's body took the brunt of it. However Lelouch came about it, his memories of the incident were not altered. There was no need to alter them, and they would have mentioned it if they did.

She was placed there by V.V. and Geassed later on by the Emperor. Direct quote.
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/762/ep21nunnallynt4.th.jpg (http://img206.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ep21nunnallynt4.jpg)

It is quite possible to climb back into a wheelchair without the use of one's legs. Nunnally even escapes by her arms alone in one of the picture or sound dramas. I forget which. Basing your argument on this is flawed.

Great. Talked about maybe she's a CULT religion just like Rollo? :eyebrow: That assasination thing was completely some so-called mind-games for lelouch! I knew it! :mad:

Spectacular_Insanity

2008-09-27, 02:45

So he got the correct timing and pause between each sentence down too?
This is highly unlikely.
And where do you see that they were drugged? Diethard was standing up pretty well.
Edit: sorry i see the refrain drugs. Still doesn't stop their vocal cords. Probably just inhibits their movements.

I didn't want to point this out, but.... it's ANIME. they can do whatever the hell they want.

Shuuda

2008-09-27, 03:08

Any chance that we'll see a Kaguya/Tianzi pairing?

I should happen, their a perfect match afterall, but it won't. :frustrated:

Spectacular_Insanity

2008-09-27, 03:30

I should happen, their a perfect match afterall, but it won't. :frustrated:

Not to mention, I thought that it would be a Tianzi x Xing-Qe (is that spelled right?) pairing. Of course, assuming Xing-Qe doesn't die of whatever degenerative disease it is that he has, first.

Chaos2Frozen

2008-09-27, 03:55

So he got the correct timing and pause between each sentence down too?
This is highly unlikely.

Yes, Lelouch is THAT good.

Anh_Minh

2008-09-27, 05:45

KingOfWorlds

2008-09-27, 07:32

Yeah, exactly. Schneizel never had the support Lelouch had and it was due to where he was and his position. Lelouch could get that support in his position.

Its that support that makes Lelouch a better ruler than Schniezel too.

Kyero Fox

2008-09-27, 11:09

I should happen, their a perfect match afterall, but it won't. :frustrated:

please let us know how they would even concider that? Their frieeends, plus Tianzi likes Xing-Qe, so Tough luck on that fantasy =\

ulquiorra19

2008-09-27, 12:21

wow i cant belive it

AceD

2008-09-27, 13:20

So he got the correct timing and pause between each sentence down too?
This is highly unlikely.
And where do you see that they were drugged? Diethard was standing up pretty well.
Edit: sorry i see the refrain drugs. Still doesn't stop their vocal cords. Probably just inhibits their movements.if i remember right, when he defeated his dad and mother, didnt he use his geass on the gods? lol, suddenly predicting the S-mans actions seem easy

Rising Dragon

2008-09-27, 13:27

Predicting Schniezel's answers is nothing surprising. He used the same tactic on Mao when he rescued C.C. after Shirley's memories were erased.

Jeffry2009

2008-09-27, 17:54

I meant last time was, put nunally in there to create a witness although she's a fake witness and It turns out to be Hypocrite to me. Damn, i was suprised and said 'You've got to be Kidding me!!'

Anyway only several hours left till the final episode airs, folks. No wonder why are they called this show a 'Trainwreck'. :eyespin:

White-Snow-Empress

2008-09-27, 20:15

Just maybe, we'll get an ending that goes along the lines of a romantic scene between Lelouch and CC, sth like:
-Lelouch, who do you love?
- The person I love is not (insert cc's real name here)... CC, it is you who I love.
*They walk forward and kiss passionately*
Black screen
Then we see Emperor Lelouch (with his Utterly Fabolous Hat of course) and Empress CC (with a matching crown) salute the masses and give a speech about what has happened (there we find out what went on with the rest of the war, the BK and so on), and say that making a new and brighter future, is now possible, uniting everyone's will.
Then, as the crown cheers, emperor and empress walk away through a hallway having flashbacks of what happened with the rest of the characters.
As they look down on a green haired purple-eyed baby on a crib, Lelouch grabs CC's hand and says:
-Yes, this will be indeed a brighter future.

.....
What do you think? It's highly unlikely, but I had fun thinking up the scene ^^... Many CluClu fans may have liked it^^ I hope so at least..
Yeah, I am a CluClu fan myself and I believe they will end up together, because, seriously, do you think Kallen could be Lelouch's Empress? Nah, it just doesn't suit her. An imperial bride could be, but the one true Empress has to be CC... Besides, she looks better in white and you have to have a matching outfit to use the Hat, ne?
^^

Sorry if anyone felt offended, it was never my intention....

Discerptor

2008-09-27, 20:30

Yes, Lelouch is THAT good.

No, the writing is just that under-thought. :)

Crimson_Hero

2008-09-28, 00:16

Just maybe, we'll get an ending that goes along the lines of a romantic scene between Lelouch and CC, sth like:
-Lelouch, who do you love?
- The person I love is not (insert cc's real name here)... CC, it is you who I love.
*They walk forward and kiss passionately*
Black screen
Then we see Emperor Lelouch (with his Utterly Fabolous Hat of course) and Empress CC (with a matching crown) salute the masses and give a speech about what has happened (there we find out what went on with the rest of the war, the BK and so on), and say that making a new and brighter future, is now possible, uniting everyone's will.
Then, as the crown cheers, emperor and empress walk away through a hallway having flashbacks of what happened with the rest of the characters.
As they look down on a green haired purple-eyed baby on a crib, Lelouch grabs CC's hand and says:
-Yes, this will be indeed a brighter future.

I'd love a happy go lucky ending like that, but alas, it is not meant to be - as you know, every Mecha anime has to have a bittersweet cockblock at the end where the protagonist triumphs, but ends up losing his love in the process (TTGL, MSG, E7, etc...)

For Lulu, he will be forced to take CC's life, and become the keeper of the Geass, never letting it fall into human hands for the rest of eternity.... He will be dubbedLL and will live on . . . for-ev-er.

Utau

2008-09-28, 00:40

less than 5hrs more until we get final conclusion. Be it satisfying or FAIL.

either way, it's going to be another mindrape.

Proudleaf

2008-09-28, 00:51

less than 5hrs more until we get final conclusion. Be it satisfying or FAIL.

either way, it's going to be another mindrape.

I'm betting satisfying. Actually, I'm guessing it's going to be surprisingly satisfying.

But we'll see. :heh:

Pink-chan

2008-09-28, 00:55

I'm betting satisfying. Actually, I'm guessing it's going to be surprisingly satisfying.

But we'll see. :heh:

Should be satisfying for some, while unresolved for the others. Not everyong will be satisfied. We shall see :D

Megacrash Gr

2008-09-28, 01:10

how many hours left?

So the damocles is going to sink with lelouch and nunnaly. they need to pick up the pace.....................wats gonna happen?

Carlos45

2008-09-28, 01:56

As long as Lelouch is alive, and they don't make it like death note ending, I would be happy.

Rising Dragon

2008-09-28, 02:00

Mods frown upon countdowns, last I checked.

Freya

2008-09-28, 02:49

Hey can I ask you guys something? Do you guys appreciate that you guys HAVE Code Geass at all? Yeah it's the last episode and all but would you say you're still happy with what you have?

Jibade

2008-09-28, 03:07

I want to say these forums made Code Geass a more enjoyable experience with the theories and dissection of the series. Just want to give thanks to all who shared their thoughts about the series.

Now we wait.

Trogdor Jube

2008-09-28, 03:32

Well that was a............
Satisfying ending I guess.

Aceywacey

2008-09-28, 05:02

can't wait for subs for the ending >_>

KennethJ

2008-09-28, 10:09

Predicting Schniezel's answers is nothing surprising. He used the same tactic on Mao when he rescued C.C. after Shirley's memories were erased.

Yeah i remember that but i dont think his recording was as well thought out as with Schneizel. Even the Mao convo was a bit farfetched. Lelouch maybe be able to predict his bother's response, but to be able to perfectly time each sentence and be able to response accordingly is still hard to believe.
And yes this is an anime but its also Code Geass which makes us think alot (at least makes me think alot) so i tend to dwell on certain things

White-Snow-Empress

2008-09-28, 12:11

Hey can I ask you guys something? Do you guys appreciate that you guys HAVE Code Geass at all? Yeah it's the last episode and all but would you say you're still happy with what you have?

As far as I'm concerned, I adored Code Geass all the way. Even when things left you a 'wtf is going on?' or 'ytf did he do that for?' feeling, I kept relying on Lelouch's mind fucking plans:rolleyes:... I was never completely disatisfied with it overall (except maybe when we had no CC, took a lot of emotion:heh:) and I'm very happy with most of it.
It's been a long ride since the times whn I watched the first trailer and then the entire S1 in a couple of days....
CC, I will always worship you.;)
Lelouch, I adored you.:p

Hope there will be a S3...:( Let's just wait........

Best wishes to you all, hope you will be happy with the final turn

Rising Dragon

2008-09-28, 12:37

Yeah i remember that but i dont think his recording was as well thought out as with Schneizel. Even the Mao convo was a bit farfetched. Lelouch maybe be able to predict his bother's response, but to be able to perfectly time each sentence and be able to response accordingly is still hard to believe.
And yes this is an anime but its also Code Geass which makes us think alot (at least makes me think alot) so i tend to dwell on certain things

Its possible that Lelouch Geass'd a guard and ordered him to pause/play accordingly during the recording's playing.

Discerptor

2008-10-01, 11:48

Its possible that Lelouch Geass'd a guard and ordered him to pause/play accordingly during the recording's playing.

That actually makes the scene almost seem plausible, assuming Britannian playback technology makes pausing less obvious than ours.

wingdarkness

2008-10-01, 16:43

Its possible that Lelouch Geass'd a guard and ordered him to pause/play accordingly during the recording's playing.

LMMFAO...The penultimate battle of wits in this entire series came down to Moltar pressing the pause button in the Damocalus Editing studio...Jesus Skywalker...I tell you what though, had the actually drawn and shown that in the episode itself, I woulda :eek:, and probably felt alot better about the scene...

Levy

2009-01-22, 04:24

moved to a more approriate place from Kallen's thread.

No, he made "something", in the anime Guilford becomed officially Cornelia's boyfriend.

In my opinion, that character returned thanks fans request, that's all.

I remember we discussed this privately before, now I've found back the source for Okuchi's interview in wich he saids he has finished the script for Geass. The post on Koshimizu (the translator)'s blog was dated 14 July , hence it has to be released even before. Guilford's apparent 'death' came by 10th of August, so none could know about it and complain about it in time.

I do not believe in "the fans did them do this and that" in general, moreover in the specific case - I'll be surprised to know that Guilford has so many fans, and that the writers are doing this for his fans' sake. ^^;
Not that I complain about it, though.

As I told you before, all his 'return' is a brilliant example of failed coupe de theatre and bad writing, but if you think about it, it make much more sense that he survived to the explosion, being him just some meters away from Lelouch that do not suffer not even a minimal damage.
Personally, I was happy that he did not die the way he seemed to in ep.18, because, although touching, I found that kind of death very humiliating for him.