Claymore Chapter 84

[khryoleoz]

If Raciella is that strong, doesn't that mess up the alliances a little? We were thinking that the Ghosts would have to align with Priscilla and Isley in order to defeat Raciella and Riful. What if Raciella goes and does her own thing, and Riful has to align with Isley and Priscilla to fight Raciella? Wouldn't that be weird?
None of those are really serious variables. Assuming that Priscilla and Isley are still allied, these two can suppress Raciella. Riful wouldn't be a factor because of one of two likely occurrences, 1) she'll do as promised and kill Raciella before the two awaken if Raciella is stronger than she is or 2) Raciella will kill Riful in defense, retaliation, or pleasure.

If Raciella is weaker than Riful, then the combined strength of Priscilla and Isley will swat them still.

I'm curious as to whether Raki's loyalty still lies with Clare, or if he feels he owes Priscilla. If Clare and Priscilla fight, who do you think he will choose? I'm wondering if the fact that he knows that Priscilla is already close to her limit will make him side with Clare. Even if he cares about Priscilla, he seems like the type that would try to prevent Priscilla from doing the worst.
Raki's time with Clare had been the most formative experiences of his life. In her he found a hero, his savior, and his first love (or I'm assuming it's his first love). I'm sure that the brief time he has had with Clare holds greater value in his mind than the 7 years he had spent with Priscilla looking for Clare.

Not should, but when the inevitable fight between Clare and Priscilla happens, Raki is likely to sympathize with the one loosing. That would be Priscilla by virtue of 2 things, 1) the Teresa factor in Clare that will make Priscilla piss herself and 2) the main character factor that IS Clare.

Raciella is really just another big bad introduced in order to show just how much bigger and badder either Clare or Priscilla are. It really is too bad about Raphaela. She should have just done what Rubel pegged her character for as something that she would do. Failing that, she would turn herself into one that needed exterminating. I don't think she planned things out that way. What a drag for Clare to have to deal with this garbage, as if Isley, Riful, the Org, and Priscilla weren't enough.

[germanturkey]

i know i'm not allowed to asked for a link to it, but is the chapter out in english yet? a simple yes or no will work.

mods, you can delete this post if its against the rules

[ergon]

I don't think the english is out yet but I just read the Japanese and this is pretty close

I just translated the Chinese scanlation into a detailed summary, though I'm sure it may differ from the original Japanese raw. Enjoy. :)

SCENE84. Messenger of Temptation (蠱惑の使者)

“I never thought there may be Awakened Beings here,” says Rubel, as he kicks the AB’s head away. “Oh, I should have called them Voracious Eaters here.” He continues. “3 people just played the hell with it in the palm of their hands…not bad…”

“Why are you here too?” Clare demands. “It’s just purely coincidental,” Rubel replies. “There’s 3 warriors and 3 of us (MIBs) here, it’s not weird.” He looks there at the nearby onlookers talking amongst themselves. “Anyway, let’s talk somewhere else…this place is too conspicuous. The four walk to a archway in a deserted part of town.

“Hey, hey, hey Clare,” Yuma asks. “Who is this person?” “He’s the one who gave me my assignments during my warrior days.” Clare answers. “Hey,” Rubel says. “I can’t believe you just plainly described our relationship, that’s so disappointing.” He continues. “We met before you became a warrior. Besides battle, I’m the one who taught you the techniques.” Clare and her group remain silent. “Don’t give me that ready-to-deal-with-me look,” Rubel says. “It was not easy thinking of helping you get your answers.”

“What?” Clare asks. “Now the Organization is using a lot of resources to track down a warrior’s whereabouts in the western land here. Organization’s No. 6’s, the warrior called Renee, whereabouts. Clare remains quiet and listens. “Although Renee’s strength matches the number position she’s in, she has exceptional ability to sense yoki at a grand scale. Which means that she holds the position of the Organization’s Eye in this generation.” He continues. “When she lost contact with the Organization, at the same time we confirmed another piece of info. The reported failure of the higher-numbered warriors. Although they were attacked by Riful, they managed to survive due to someone’s help.” Clare shows a bit of interest. “Though they minded the ones who saved them, the thing that we are worried about is the question of what Riful said. Riful was looking for someone with exceptionally high sensing ability. After finding this person, what does she intend to do?” Clare, Cynthia and Yuma listen intently.

“Although we couldn’t figure out what Riful is planning to do, we’re afraid that it’s something we don’t want to see happen. So the Organization tries to go under Riful’s presence and go around searching for Renee. But those who want people with high yoki sensing ability should be thinking of using them to get something they want, so it’s appropriate to consider this possibility.” “What do you think Riful wants?” Clare asks. Rubel is a bit surprised. “You’re still as sharp as ever,” he says. “Though I haven’t confirmed this, I thought of something.” Clare tells him to say it.

“7 years ago, the one who killed Abyssal Luciela was then the Organization’s No. 5, Rafaela’s remains.” Rubel says.

Meanwhile, back at Riful’s hideout, she asks Renee if there are any discoveries yet. Renee is breathing heavily under Dauf’s chains. She tells Riful that she’s unable to concentrate and pleads to her to let her regenerate her arm and leg. “Oh, your words sound so wonderful,” Riful says. “Do you think I will grant your kind of request?” “It’s true!” Renee shouts. “I originally was good in sensing yoki on a large scale, but I’m not good at using my ability to sense inside an individual’s yoki! And also right now what I’m trying to do is access the inside of the sealed consciousness. So let me be at my full status, to be worried at regenerating my limbs and taking care of the another task is impossible!”

Riful gives a quizzical look. “Please believe that I’m not lying to you!” Renee shouts. “Now I’m already so tired just to maintain my consciousness!.” “Hmm…what you say is logical,” Riful says. “Ok, I grant it!”

Dauf is shocked. “No, Riful!” he says. “This person says this just to escape!” “It’s all right,” Riful says. “Although she is confident in the strength of her legs, she should be clear that she’s no match for me.” She turns to Renee. “But if you try to escape this time, I wouldn’t be warmly treating you like this again. If you don’t want to turn into pieces and retain a human form, do remember what I just told you.” She turns to Dauf. “Then it’s settled,” she says. “Help me remove her bonds.”

Dauf removes them and catches Renee’s body. He uses his fingers to dig into Renee’s exposed wound, making her scream in pain. He then grabs her head. “Listen properly,” he says. “If you dare betray Riful and escape, I will be the first one to take down your head.” Renee says nothing and breaths heavily. “So what are you doing?” Riful tells Renne. “Better start now.”

Renee’s various limbs are thrown in front of her. “Arms would need to regenerate,” Riful says to her. “But if it’s legs, then they should regenerate faster. It’s still fresh since they have been just cut for only a short while.” She continues. “Please hurry then, if I see any hint of trying to delay time, your head will roll.” Renee picks up her left leg and starts to concentrate her yoki on repairing it, while Riful and Dauf look on.

Somewhere in darkness. Compared to that deep place, what people believe will forever remain in the darkness, actually exists. It then shows Luciela’s and Rafaela’s partially merged forms. The hybrid of the two’s consciousness no longer speaks, whose life fragment is that? If the mist in the darkness is the same as a light that disappears when gently touched, then that light is so weak that nobody has the courage to approach it. But… A small light shines and a hand touches it, it’s Renee’s. A giant explosion brightens the darkness, where Renee’s consciousness is. She immediately shatters.

In the real world, Renee concentration is broken and abruptly wakes up. “It entirely shattered my consciousness where I was hiding,” she thinks. “A piece of uncalculated yoki…No…it cannot be done…it must not be awakened…” her thoughts are interrupted as Riful’s hair tentacle that punctures the wall next to her face.

“I told you before…” Riful says. “If you have any hint of delay then your head will roll…” she notices that Renee is breathing heavily as she is in fear. “I…I’m sorry,” Renee says. “Whether it is attaching or regenerating, I’m not familiar with it so I’m feeling a bit confused…” “Are you all right?” Riful asks. “You look very pale. Anyway please concentrate when you reattach both legs. If you die due to blood loss before you can recover, that’s so bad of you.” Renee pauses for a while, then continues reattaching her legs.

“If I have to compare with Riful of the West in strength, I have no way in knowing,” Renee thinks. “But one thing I’m very sure of is that something terrifying will happen if I awakened that thing. During the moment it wakes up, my body will be entirely ripped apart, even the disgusting man beside Riful. The only one that lives is the person that holds the title of Abyssal One. I’m afraid it’s that kind of powerful strength.”

“My legs are necessary,” Renee thinks. “No matter what, I have to escape this place. Whatever happens to my right hand, it doesn’t matter anymore. The pressing thing right now is to regenerate my body enough so as to escape. Because now it doesn’t matter if I die cause of getting involved into the battle between monsters…”

Meanwhile back to Clare and her group, Rubel says, “One day that happened 7 years ago, Rafaela disappeared from the Organization when she got involved in the battle between Isley and Luciela. The reason is to use her own hands to finish off her sister’s life. The result is that Isley won the fight, but Luciela’s body and Rafaela’s whereabouts were not confirmed. At the same time, we got info that Isley and Riful made contact in the South. These are the evidence that I speculated.”

“Rafaela and Luciela have almost the same strength as each other,” Rubel continues. “If there is a way to make Rafaela awaken, and make her a new ally, the overall power on this land would drastically change.” Clare pauses. “Then, what are you planning to make us do?” “Nothing much,” Rubel says. “I’m just here to answer your doubts, no other intentions. Didn’t I say before? This was because of the friendship in the past. After that, whatever you’re trying to do has nothing to do with me. I’m only here to provide you with the info you wanted to know.”

Clare instead says. “Just like what you told Miria about the war on the mainland? Let her do what she deems fit, is that right?” Cynthia and Yuma are stunned. “What?” Yuma shouts. Rubel gives an ominous smile.

“So I see,” he says. “You have already heard before. So that person is still alive? Besides the three of you that survived 7 years ago, according to the missing claymores at the North, the rest are Miria, Helen, Deneve, Tabitha and Undine… But I never thought Undine would take her friend’s claymore, so I can say the one of the four remaining people took Undine’s claymore for herself?”

“You bastard,” Clare says. “Which person…” “Now then,” Rubel interrupts. “You should have sensed the overall circumstances right?” “Someone who resists the Organization,” Cynthia answers. “Which means it’s the people from the war at the mainland, that fights against the Organization, is that correct?” “Eh?” Yuma says. Rubel smiles and remains quiet.

“Wait, wait,” Yuma says. “If it’s the side that fights against the Organization, doesn’t that mean their motives are the same as us? Which means it’s possible we will become allies.” “Don’t be mistaken,” Clare says. “This guy gives us info, but doesn’t mean that he wants us to help him or anything. To put it simply, he is even more troubling than the Organization. The truth is this man has tried to killed the four of us half-awakened before.”

“Hm hm hm,” Rubel smiles. “So I see. Looks like Miria only told you, the one who is closely related to me, the things regarding me.” “Regarding the half-ABs, to be concerned, is something that we don’t want to accept at all. So we use this as baseline to create ABs that we can control, but to us, it’s still troubling. The first time to hear about the existence of half-ABs was from Ophelia about Miria. The lucky thing was I was the only one to hear this. Although I kept saying that I will report this to the Organization, this matter ended up not mentioned.”

“Ah, after that I told Miria all about the war in the mainland. But it would have been good if she had immediately betrayed the Organization. But she was such a clever child, never took the action I expected her to do. Then I used all methods to send her to the battle in the North, thought that was the end of it…but I never thought all four together survived, that’s so surprising!”

“Then what are you planning to do?” Clare says. “Report to the Organization and organize a group to hunt us down?” “Why?” Rubel says. “Leaving the Organization and fighting against it, it would be convenient to fight on our side. No matter, I guess you all want to destroy the Organization very badly. But we just don’t wish to see you caught due to being exposed as half-ABs, and I’m sure you all don’t want to become ingredients for human experiments right?”

“Then,” Yuma says, “Shouldn’t those people from the enemy side have more efficient ways in destroying the Organization? They should have enough numbers isn’t it?” “There would be no meaning if I did that,” Rubel says. “I would like to see the Organization look like self-destructed before taking over.” “What?” Yuma says.

“To the enemy’s work, as far as the research facilities are concerned,” Rubel says, “If they are destroyed, they would build their facilities even deeper. Which means next time it would be more difficult for our men to infiltrate. If that’s the case, it would be better to maintain the current status and quietly observe the developments that happen . After that, if the inner workings get destroyed inside out from our secret activities, that would be great. If the research facilities self-destruct due to out of control, that means we would have made them stumble in their research development.”

“If it’s like this, then I don’t understand why you have to tell us about tracking down a warrior’s whereabouts,” Yuma says. “If Riful makes Rafaela awaken, the Organization will become more chaotic…”

“Good guys will wish to be involved in this chaos though,” Clare says. “Eh?” Yuma and Cynthia say.

“This bastard knows that we can’t win against Riful,” Clare says. “To put it simply, he wants to see the entire half-ABs die faster.”

To be continued…

[Serous]

Its out but, yeah, for undisclosed reasons I do not have the ability to read it. I hope it gets uploaded to a certain site soon.

[TeresaFaintSmile]

I was bored waiting for this episode so I started to create my own version of claymore manga

link----> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmNRc4rr2uM

you can also search for my claymore fan arts in my DA account
the address to my DA account can be seen at the same link above.

[crazy_child]

I personally dont think there are going to be many Isley vs Riful, or Clare vs whomsoever fights!!! I think after the whole plot evolution, AO, AT and HA will become allies and go to the mainland.
After all I think thats the reason why the idea with the mainland war was brought into the story.
And the important key is Raki. Why?
Even if Clare and Pris have disputes, Theresa is still alive within Claire. And they both like raki - so he would be a starting point for an alliance.

In the they are going to fight on the main land, and the Twin Goddess will bring peace and love to the world, according to legends :P

And one more thing, why does everyone not like Raki cause he's a crybaby? I think it was made on purpose like this - take for example Clare, Uma and other weak characters that are among the strongest in the end. Its an idea that you can notice through all Yagi Norihiro's work, like strengh comes from power will, and that one shouldnt make an impression only from appearances.

[Mr Hat and Clogs]

Nice infomercial chapter.

Heh, I'd be thoroughly amused if Priscilla (+Raki) saved Renee, Clare and co from Raciella and Riful.

I did have this peculiar mental image of Pricilla sacrificing herself to save Raki for Clare's sake for some distant future moment.

anyway...

Need more.

[Stream]

It's... out, but...

Umm... yeah... well... how... j-just how did Tanequil make all the words so... horribly... awkward? I mean... it's obvious he can write English well so... that's... not... the problem, but... um... wtf? No-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-NOOOOOOO!!! W-wh-why c-couldn't Din just wait for shrimpy's TL...?

*curls up into the fetal position and quietly whimpers and cringes in the corner*

[Dreadz!]

i know i'm not allowed to asked for a link to it, but is the chapter out in english yet? a simple yes or no will work.

mods, you can delete this post if its against the rules

the chapter is out in english already, just google it. The translation and quality are not the best, but it is more than readable and understandable.

[Dreadz!]

The chapter is awesome! One of the best chapters so far, which uncovers so many plot situations of present and past.

I would have never guessed, that all Rubel's actions towards any partial awakened claymore were only about to get her killed. Now i cleary see why did he sent Clare with Miria, Deneve and Helen 1st, and then, when they survived, he sent Clare to Ophelia, to get her killed... Really, Rubel is so cool, he is a very good spy, very sharp aswell.

The next interesting thing will be happening at Riful's hideout... What will Renee do ? The only chance to save her life is escaping, but she cant do that with Riful nearby and awakening Raciela will get her(and Duph) killed even faster.

Give next month!

[evil_kenshin]

And one more thing, why does everyone not like Raki cause he's a crybaby? I think it was made on purpose like this - take for example Clare, Uma and other weak characters that are among the strongest in the end. Its an idea that you can notice through all Yagi Norihiro's work, like strengh comes from power will, and that one shouldnt make an impression only from appearances.

Truth be told it was the anime that ruined him and made him appear to be a cry baby.

Manga version is alot better and likeable (his one of my favourite characters in the series)

[Droplet]

Hmm, according to Tanequk's TL, Renee cannot tell which between Riful and Raciella is stronger. (page 20 TL)

Does this imply that Raciella's just a bit stronger or equal to Riful? If this becomes the case, then Priscilla's still going to be the Top AB.

(hopefully, we could compare other TLs soon though)

Edit:

Cynthia's deduction that Rubel is a spy is kinda impressive. it shows that she's clever (page 26). I kinda expected that Clare was the first one to call him a spy (then again, maybe she thought about it first). :)

[evil_kenshin]

Hmm, according to Tanequk's TL, Renee cannot tell which between Riful and Raciella is stronger. (page 20 TL)

Does this imply that Raciella's just a bit stronger or equal to Riful? If this becomes the case, then Priscilla's still going to be the Top AB.

(hopefully, we could compare other TLs soon though)

I'm not sure on that, compared to the way she freaked out about Priscilla (Though Priscilla's yoki could be weaker due to hunger which is alternate explanation) was much less than the way she freaked out about Raciella.

[Droplet]

I'm not sure on that, compared to the way she freaked out about Priscilla (Though Priscilla's yoki could be weaker due to hunger which is alternate explanation) was much less than the way she freaked out about Raciella.

Ah, it's interesting that we now gauge Priscilla and Raciella's strength in accord to Renee's 'freakmeter'. :)

Also, there's some differences with how she sensed Pris compared to Raciella:

1. She got inside Raciella's head, whereas she didn't enter Priscilla's.
2. Assuming Pris is weaker due to not eating organs for so long, Raciella's case is different because she's been hibernating for a while. So Raciella being in her top form isn't fair to be compared with Pris in 'weak mode'.


Edit:

Some speculation: Rubel states that the first knowledge of Half Awakened beings (HABs from hereon) came from Ophelia.

I think by first knowledge, he meant that it was the first time Claymores themselves have noticed this phenomenon.

Therefore, it's likely that the org has known about this from a long time ago.

quotes that support it (from Page 28):

"Rubel - The existence of partially Awakened beings is a truth that we do not want to admit.

Rubel - Using this as a basis, a controllable awakened being could be created, and this would be terribly inconvenient [if Claymores knew this was possible]." Added text within brackets by me.

[evil_kenshin]

Ah, it's interesting that we now gauge Priscilla and Raciella's strength in accord to Renee's 'freakmeter'. :)

Also, there's some differences with how she sensed Pris compared to Raciella:

1. She got inside Raciella's head, whereas she didn't enter Priscilla's.
2. Assuming Pris is weaker due to not eating organs for so long, Raciella's case is different because she's been hibernating for a while. So Raciella being in her top form isn't fair to be compared with Pris in 'weak mode'.

true neither techincally are at 100% top form. But Raciella will kill atleast Duph if not Riful herself.

Renee has to get out of this somehow alive even if for a little bit just to tell Clare about Raki, so she will survive Raciella's revival.

[evil_kenshin]

Rubel said that the claymores who gave intelligence about Riful were the ones uma, cynthia and clare just met. He also said that they were saved from riful's claw by someone. Who might that be?:confused:

I'm confused by that as well, at first i presumed he was referring to the ones that the ghosts saved awhile back, but their not the same people. Prehaps yagi made a error??

[Droplet]

Just to clear something up, Rubel mentions that

"Rubel - The existence of partially Awakened beings is a truth that we do not want to admit." -Page 28

I think he used "we" to refer to him and the DoDs and not the Claymore Org. So it's not clear whether the Org knows about HABs.

Another quote from page 29:

"Rubel - I’m just hoping that the partial Awakened state will not be known to them."

Now he uses them, this time I'm sure he refer to the org.

[KillerYomaFromSpace]

some quick thoughts after reading the chapter:

OMG Rubel what an asshole, I knew that he was working for "the others" and that he gave the information to Miria, but trying to kill her? unforgivable!! good that she didn't fall for his trick =P

Also, the ghosts seem to have quite a lot of smart girls, now what will they do?, go back and tell Miria?, try to stop Riful before its too late knowing that its hopeless mission?, get into an inn and drink just to realize that its not fun without Helen?

I didn't like René at all in previous chapters, but she is earning points now, I hope she manages to get away

I foresee that ironically Priscila will be the one that saves their asses

And where the f*ck is Isley?

[Awakened]

It looks like Racillia will awaken on her own. At first Renee could barely feel the light, but as she approached it, it became so powerful that it shattered her subconscious mind. That tells me that the awakening process has already begun. No one can stop Racillia now.:D

Ruble might be one of the Dod. When Uma talked about the Dod attacking the Org, Ruble said something about waiting for the org to implode before he makes his move. He must be powerful to be able to make a move against the Org. Also he must be really brave to show himself to Clare, or confidence enough to be able to defend himself against Clare.

[Droplet]

I agree with your statements KillerYoma. ^^

You know, Pris originally was a sweet girl. Moreso now. But she got brainwashed pretty damn well by the org. Much like Clarice's line of thinking against Galatea even though we could tell that Clarice was a decent person.

Anyway, we still don't know who the real bad guys are. :( For all we know, the org's reasons for fighting in the war are the noble ones. Wait, I guess war doesn't necessarily have to be a fight between good and evil. So in case it happens that Both the DoDs and the Org are both evil.

Maybe Clare et. al. should just immigrate. :)

[evil_kenshin]

And where the f*ck is Isley?

He probably won't show up until Clare discovers Priscilla and Raki.

[ergon]

Clare asked rubel why they didn't just attack the org. and he said "then they'd just move the research to somewhere even more remote where getting an insider in would be near impossible. but if it destroyed itself, then the research might be ended"

[KillerYomaFromSpace]

and one more thing... who saved that group from Riful?

the only ones I can think of are Irene? (lol), and who knows... maybe Audrei and Bart abandoned the org after being saved?

Isley and Priscila are powerful enough, but after seeing Riful as healthy as always and in a good mood, its impossible that she had such a conflict

[Droplet]

and one more thing... who saved that group from Riful?

the only ones I can think of are Irene? (lol), and who knows... maybe Audrei and Bart abandoned the org after being saved?

Isley and Priscila are powerful enough, but after seeing Riful as healthy as always and in a good mood, its impossible that she had such a conflict

I think it was the G7. That's from Chapter 68-71, iirc.

[KillerYomaFromSpace]

Wasn't it the G7?

I dont know if the translation is right, but I think he was refering to the Claymores in the town, also, when Riful said to Clare that she wanted a warrior with nice sensing skills, the group they saved were all unconscious

one last thing I forgot to mention:
did Rubel said that partially awakened Claymores are one step forward to controlled ABs?

does that mean that in theory, Miria, Helen, Clare, and Deneve, could become ABs in the future that keeps their human mind?

[Droplet]

I dont know if the translation is right, but I think he was refering to the Claymores in the town, also, when Riful said to Clare that she wanted a warrior with nice sensing skills, the group they saved were all unconscious

one last thing I forgot to mention:
did Rubel said that partially awakened Claymores are one step forward to controlled ABs?

does that mean that in theory, Miria, Helen, Clare, and Deneve, could become ABs in the future that keeps their human mind?

oh, you're right, it seems that after Riful attacked Audrey, she attacked another group.

on page 5:

"Rubel - Although there was concern about who had rescued them…

Rubel - What was of greater concern was what Riful had said.

Rubel - Riful was looking for Claymores with exceptional Yoki-perception.

Rubel - What could she be intending to do after finding such a person?"

This is still really similar to the incident with Audrey. But it's possible that there was another case where 1)Riful caught a group of claymores, 2)That group was saved 3)Riful mentioned her need for Claymores who can sense yoki exceptionally well.

Who possibly is this new hero?

[Droplet]

Just for comparison, I put together side by side the page where Renee is freaked out by Pris, and the page where Renee is freaked out by Raciella. If this could be used for any discussion, then I look forward to it.

I'm not sure though what we're observing in Renee's shocked expressions as we compare. Is it how wide her eyes open or is it the drops of sweat?

Anyway, here.

http://img363.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shocknn2.jpg[/QUOTE]

[Droplet]

Just for comparison, I put together side by side the page where Renee is freaked out by Pris, and the page where Renee is freaked out by Raciella. If this could be used for any discussion, then I look forward to it.

I'm not sure though what we're observing in Renee's shocked expressions as we compare. Is it how wide her eyes open or is it the drops of sweat?

Anyway, here.

Renee being freaked out. (http://img363.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shocknn2.jpg)

[HayashiTakara]

eh... boring chapter... just more itterations of what we already know...

[yezhanquan]

eh... boring chapter... just more itterations of what we already know...

Well, the info is welcome. But, I don't quite enjoy all the talk. It would be better to fit bits in the course of the series, rather than just throw everything into one wordy chapter.

Rubel the spy: Doesn't quite cut it. I still believe that his current look is a disguise, and his real face is as suave as Bond.

[HayashiTakara]

The "new" info could've easily been covered in like 1/3 of the chapter... but it got so dragged out that it took all 30 chapters.... Its bad enough that its monthly but to drag it out like this? ...maybe I should read it like once every few months

[Weils]

Rubel and the side he's working for were pretty smart. They didn't have to do any major offense against the Organization and just observe the developments that follow. And speaking about the recent developments, the Organization is going to screw itself so hard from all the botched creations and their rebellions that they will just conveniently destroy itself sooner or later without the enemy even attacking.

Except that Rubel is going to throw the Ghosts into the mix and hopefully get them all killed from the battle between Org, ABs, AOs. That's the problem with information. Even though the good guys know that Rubel is up to no good with his usual ways, they can't help but follow up on his info. Hence he's the messenger of temptation.

[yezhanquan]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but have we got a scene where Rubel speaks to the Org with one face, and thinking about something deviant within himself?

[evil_kenshin]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but have we got a scene where Rubel speaks to the Org with one face, and thinking about something deviant within himself?

Sort of, we have the scene where Clarice talks about the missing swords of warriors she reckoned survived. The org thinks nothing of it as such, but Rubel thinks to himself that Miria isn't a likely one to accept death but doesn't voice this.

[stringer13]

I wonder why Rubel wants to kill the partially awakened claymores. What do you think is his motive?

[evil_kenshin]

I wonder why Rubel wants to kill the partially awakened claymores. What do you think is his motive?

as he said, partially awakened claymores = closer to the organization developing controllable awakened beings.

IF the organization discovered this fact which he hid so well, then theres a chance the organization would be a step closer to controllable AB's which then means more of a threat to the dragon-kin.

[KillerYomaFromSpace]

Rubel is as much of an asshole as the organization, probably, even more.

the organization is guilty of most tragedies that happens there, but its Rubel and the others (sry, but i can't call them dragon kin or descendants of dragons, I just can't) the ones that are perpetualizing that situation

[yezhanquan]

Rubel is as much of an asshole as the organization, probably, even more.

the organization is guilty of most tragedies that happens there, but its Rubel and the others (sry, but i can't call them dragon kin or descendants of dragons, I just can't) the ones that are perpetualizing that situation

Rubel is the Magnificent Bastard, as of now. I'm kinda disappointed that he's not the Chessmaster, but "merely" a spy. Maybe, Sensei will throw us a Wham chapter by stating that Rubel is a high ranking fellow "on the other side".

[iLney]

When Rubel said "we," it meant there were others?

This chapter just proved that the distance b/w an AO and anything else (those former #1 wannabe) except Priscilla is like earth and heaven :D It seems that the thing and Riful kinda equal in term of power. Too bad, Luciela is gone for real. The Org and Rubel only concerned about Raph's awakening.

And wth? In those 7 years, Isley seemed to retire from politik?? And the DK just wanted to destroy the Org from within? I was hoping for some AO-dragon fights :(

[yezhanquan]

Wars are costly, and I have the sense that both sides are close to ruin now. As for Isley, well.... we still have no idea how much he had said tol Raki, and what he left out.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Truth be told it was the anime that ruined him and made him appear to be a cry baby.

Manga version is alot better and likeable (his one of my favourite characters in the series)

I disagree. I found the manga version of him a lot more unbearable than the anime version, having read the manga first. The whole time, I just wished :) something out there, anything, would eat him. :D

[Dreadz!]

Too bad, Luciela is gone for real. The Org and Rubel only concerned about Raph's awakening.

Remember, they still know nothing about actual state of things with Raph and Luci, they presume something, but they cant even imagine they merged imho.

[cf18]

oh, you're right, it seems that after Riful attacked Audrey, she attacked another group.

on page 5:

"Rubel - Although there was concern about who had rescued them…

Rubel - What was of greater concern was what Riful had said.

Rubel - Riful was looking for Claymores with exceptional Yoki-perception.

Rubel - What could she be intending to do after finding such a person?"

This is still really similar to the incident with Audrey. But it's possible that there was another case where 1)Riful caught a group of claymores, 2)That group was saved 3)Riful mentioned her need for Claymores who can sense yoki exceptionally well.

Who possibly is this new hero?

No. Riful already told her objective to Audrey when she was playing with them. Audrey just reported what she heard back to the Org.

[Droplet]

Rubel is the Magnificent Bastard, as of now. I'm kinda disappointed that he's not the Chessmaster, but "merely" a spy. Maybe, Sensei will throw us a Wham chapter by stating that Rubel is a high ranking fellow "on the other side".

Rubel's just a mean bastard :(

[stringer13]

I disagree. I found the manga version of him a lot more unbearable than the anime version, having read the manga first. The whole time, I just wished :) something out there, anything, would eat him. :D

I would have to disagree. In the anime. Raki was even more of a crybaby especially at the end. I would have to say almost any claymore fan likesthe manga better then the anime in general.

[iLney]

Remember, they still know nothing about actual state of things with Raph and Luci, they presume something, but they cant even imagine they merged imho.

Nah. She's gone. Raph killed her, Rubel said Raph killed her, the Org only cared about Raph, if Isley didn't think that Luciela was gone, he wouldn't be so inactive in those years. Riful said "killed her and protected her at the same time." The "killed" is obvious, the "protected" can be seen as protecting the remain of Luciela, which could be her soul, her memory, her humanity ect... or just the physical body but not the monster within Luciela, not its power because if it was the case, all the thing Raph had done would be in vain and it would not fit the theme of Claymore.

[KillerYomaFromSpace]

No. Riful already told her objective to Audrey when she was playing with them. Audrey just reported what she heard back to the Org.

true, I just re-read that part, so if they were the group that Rubel was talking about, at least you can say that Audrey didn't sell the ghosts to the org

but still in this page he talks about the group they just met, then that would mean that the translation is wrong or the language is too ambiguous, or its just another group

http://www.onemanga.com/Claymore/84/05/

[Droplet]

No. Riful already told her objective to Audrey when she was playing with them. Audrey just reported what she heard back to the Org.

That's what I also told first. But I'm just playing with the possibility that since Riful was out there, she could also have intercepted other Claymores.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Hmm, according to Tanequk's TL, Renee cannot tell which between Riful and Raciella is stronger. (page 20 TL)

Does this imply that Raciella's just a bit stronger or equal to Riful? If this becomes the case, then Priscilla's still going to be the Top AB.


It implies nothing of the kind. It is easy to tell the difference of power between the moon and the sun, but when comparing two suns you get blinded looking directly into the light. I think it is without a doubt that Raciella is going to be stronger than Riful. You are just bound to underestimate a claymore that hides its true power level, especially when that is her specialty. :) The big irony of it all is that Riful should know better, having done the same recently to a group of cocky whipper snappers. The big question is: will Raciella outshine Priscilla? What we do know -- at least what Rene believes -- is that her awakening would vaporize one claymore and a number three AB. Did Priscilla's awakening vaporize anybody?


Also, the ghosts seem to have quite a lot of smart girls, now what will they do?, go back and tell Miria?, try to stop Riful before its too late knowing that its hopeless mission?, get into an inn and drink just to realize that its not fun without Helen?

:) I think you know the answer to that question. Clare's very nature will make her rescue a fellow warrior. If that were not true, then we would've never met Jean. Clare knows it. Rubel knows it. ;) Good guys sure are predictable.

When Rubel said "we," it meant there were others?


Us -- in this case We -- and Them is classic spy talk representing the two sides of the two major powers. Are you one of Them?

[stringer13]

I say Raciella is roughly around RIful's strength but Priscilla can pawn all of them. At least until Clare shows up. :D

[Gangsta Spanksta]

I would have to disagree. In the anime. Raki was even more of a crybaby especially at the end. I would have to say almost any claymore fan likesthe manga better then the anime in general.

You can't count the end as even canon. To me the anime ends ;) when Rubel and his enforcer confront Clare and Jean. The anime is just a complementary animation of some of the scenes from the manga. :) As for Raki, I don't know why, but he just annoyed me more in the manga, not that he didn't annoy me in the anime as well. I was happy whenever Raki got seperated from Clare; in fact, I would argue that the parts are the ones that lack Raki. :D

[stringer13]

Well to each there own.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

I say Raciella is roughly around RIful's strength but Priscilla can pawn all of them. At least until Clare shows up. :D

I doubt it. I still think Riful misses the simple logic of 1 + 1 = 2. I will be very surprised if Raciella does not have the equivalent power of 2AO. I still don't know if Raciella is stronger than Priscilla at full power, but Prissy is weakened. That bastard Raki won't let her have any candy :(

[stringer13]

In claymore 1+1 doesen't always equal 2. Riful said that if she and Luciela teamed up they would have a slight chance of winning and that's why Islet prevented that.

[Sleepy Speculator]

But usage of Us and We become rather problematic for double agents...

Anyhow i'm pretty sure he refers to Audrey and Rachel's team because Riful pretty much says to the still conscious and tortured Audrey that she is looking for yoki sensor types, so please awaken...

And i think the merging of Rafeala and Luciella was triggered because their abdomens were in contact, i'm not the hell sure what that stigma is but given a full frontal hug and a yoki energy release from a soul link partner, with the 'memory' of something similar to regeneration i can see how it happened.

I'm also abit sceptical about Rubul's intentions overall, as he drops hints that the org would actually like to have partially awakened claymore contrary to what was believed, i can't put my finger on it right now, but somethings abit off.

[iLney]

It implies nothing of the kind. It is easy to tell the difference of power between the moon and the sun, but when comparing two suns you get blinded looking directly into the light. I think it is without a doubt that Raciella is going to be stronger than Riful. You are just bound to underestimate a claymore that hides its true power level, especially when that is her specialty. :) The big irony of it all is that Riful should know better, having done the same recently to a group of cocky whipper snappers. The big question is: will Raciella outshine Priscilla? What we do know -- at least what Rene believes -- is that her awakening would vaporize one claymore and a number three AB. Did Priscilla's awakening vaporize anybody?


If it was w/o a doubt, Yagi would just say so. The reactions resulting from staring at a tiger, pulling its tail and waking up an angry one could not be used to determine which tiger is stronger.
Priscilla never released or used all of her power. Raph, on the other hand, used all her power to embrace Luciela. And Renee was about to awake that amount of power all at one. It's like 50kg TNT if mixed stupidly could not make a bigger explosion than a professionally designed bomb using only 10kg :)


Us -- in this case We -- and Them is classic spy talk representing the two sides of the two major powers. Are you one of Them?

Uhm, could be. But Rubel at some point must report back to the HQ, and he did not have a cellphone or such. And I don't think the DK entrust and use only one person with this huge espionage.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

In claymore 1+1 doesen't always equal 2. Riful said that if she and Luciela teamed up they would have a slight chance of winning and that's why Islet prevented that.

Luciela was roughly on the same level as Riful and Isley. Rafaela is roughly the same strength as Luciela. If Rafaela soul -- youki -- merges with Luciela's and even if some of Luciela youki is lost, then what awakens is Rafaela + some of Luciela. It seems far more likely that whatever awakens will be more powerful than an AO.

If it was w/o a doubt, Yagi would just say so.

Say if the combo was weaker than Riful, well then that would be disappointing -- anticlimactic. I'm sure as a writer he doesn't want to make it obvious, but writers also do not like to write things that are disappointing. He's already set things up with Riful playing the mad scientist, being overconfident in her abilities, creating a monster -- the control theme, same as the organization. What may happen is that Riful will get her child to play mother to, and to her senses that child is slightly less powerful than her, but Rafaela's specialty was hiding her power, just as riful hid her true power to the new generation. Rafaela's specialty is another thing setting this up. I just don't see the story as being more interesting if what Riful wants to happen, happens.


Priscilla never released or used all of her power. Raph, on the other hand, used all her power to embrace Luciela. And Renee was about to awake that amount of power all at one. It's like 50kg TNT if mixed stupidly could not make a bigger explosion than a professionally designed bomb using only 10kg :)


Priscilla used 80% of her power. I don't know where you are getting this Raphaela used all her power to embrace Luciela stuff from. All her power would mean an Awakening. I'd have to go back and look, but was her face disfigured while hugging Luciela?



Uhm, could be. But Rubel at some point must report back to the HQ, and he did not have a cellphone or such. And I don't think the DK entrust and use only one person with this huge espionage.

I don't know if there is another spy on the island. But you make it sound like getting a spy on the island as an MiB is a cinch.

[stringer13]

I believe the combo is stronger then Riful but weaker then Priscilla. I believe that Yagi foreshadowed this when Riful said she would kill it if it was stronger then her.

[stringer13]

Also I wonder why Rubel still wants to kill the half awakened ones even though they are no longer part of the organization.

[jinntann]

Thats because half awakened ones would be easier to control AS awakened beings.

So logically, Rubel not wanting them to be able to create more alicias/beths anytime soon or any bit easier, will try to kill them off and keep the secret locked away.

[stringer13]

Yeah but the ghosts now have no allegiance to the organization. And it's still very hard to make half awakened ones. Since it is a relatively new thing it implies there are very few. In the last generation there were only 5 and in the current one there have been non indentified.

[Goofus Maximus]

He still wants them dead for the simple reason that he doesn't want the org to find out that half awakened ones exist. As long as they're alive, the org might find out about them. Making sure they're NOT alive is Mr. Dragon-kin's first priority.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Yeah but the ghosts now have no allegiance to the organization. And it's still very hard to make half awakened ones. Since it is a relatively new thing it implies there are very few. In the last generation there were only 5 and in the current one there have been non indentified.

Is it that hard? Maybe all you need is someone to pull them back. I think the ghosts for instance could use their youki sensors to half awaken the whole group, if they wanted to. Though the Claymore desire to be human would probably have the candidates objecting.

[clarakiss~]

aww... *rolls around on the floor* i don't know about you guys but that was a boring chapter. T.T

[irvinethearcher]

There is only one explaination i find logicall enough.
The org slightly change the manufacturing process of every generation and record those changes.
The changes they aplied to the manufacturing process during clare's generation made the half - awakening phenomenon possible. Normally if rubel didn't sabotage, the org now has achieved a scientifical break through. But rubel tried to prevent the org from knowing about the half - awakening phenomenon.

[Sordes Pilosus]

No your quite wrong regarding Half awakening. We have observed 3 Half awakenings in the manga out of a total of 5 known to have happened. In all of those cases there was 1 Factor that was present at all of them, that factor is "Outside Help":

From what we know about awakening based on how AO generaly behaves and based on Jean's awakening it goes something like this: The more Youki one use the stronger becommes the urge to awaken, awaken is the term used because something inside of them awakens and merges with them creating the AO, the mixture of this is the AO's uniq form and apperance. This however indicates that something awakens, but what ? Most likly based on the conversation Miria had with the other ghosts its Instinct, the Instincts of Youma awakens and once its in control it doesent let go, those that are called AO are ones that have lost to that urge to awaken his or her surpressed instincts.

From we know of Jean's awakening and of Katea's we can tell that Jean's body went way over the limit, she actualy transformed but her mind was stil there, but surpressing that urge is not something she could have done on her own, In Jean's case Clare pulled her back with Youki Manipulation, Clare basicly forced Jean's Youki levels down to a point where Jean was able to regrasp control. In Clare's case when she halfawakened in Rabona it was Raki that was the factor, she got tutched so much in a sense by what Raki said to her that she did not want to lose and awaken. In Miria's case it was Ophelia that "pissed Miria" off so much she again refused to lose.

We can only guess the situation with Helen and Deneve, but in general aspect its not to far fetched that something "helped" them in an emotinal way to overpower their instincts. Ie a Human being's instinct to "Not wanting to lose" is quite strong once it kicks in. It might be this factor when it kicks in high gear that makes half awakening possible. Many warrior's have probably been in simular situations, but because the belief "there is no way back" if all warrior's knew that "if their strong enough mentaly they can turn back" or if they helped each other it was possible much fewer would awaken, and alot more would be half awakened. The main reason there has probably only been 5 "known" cases so far. Is because the simple fact most belive it to be impossible, or that they awakened in a situation they where alone or unable to get help etc.

[Stream]

*phew* At least the JP raws make sense...

There is only one explaination i find logicall enough.
The org slightly change the manufacturing process of every generation and record those changes.
The changes they aplied to the manufacturing process during clare's generation made the half - awakening phenomenon possible. Normally if rubel didn't sabotage, the org know has achieved a scientifical break through. But rubel tried to prevent the org from knowing about the half - awakening phenomenon.

Nah... I just think that ever since the male generation, the org's been totally paranoid about awakening, so they made the black card system and scared the Claymores about awakening, and how it's impossible to return.

Plus, I think Claymores would mostly awaken in one of these three circumstances, really:
Gradual awakening: Because they rely on the black card, they only try to avoid awakening long enough to get killed by a friend.
Fighting against an enemy that's too strong solo: Well, if they don't awaken, the enemy kills them.
Same thing but in a group: A comrade would execute them or they awaken and kill the comrades or all of them just die.

Well, basically, it looks to me like most of the Claymores just get killed instead of having to fight the awakening through to the end and try to do the impossible (not awaken). So, it takes some exceptional circumstances for half-awakening - that they are awakening, but they only have the option of trying to stop it, and they won't die if they don't awaken.

Miria was in scenario #3, except the comrades didn't try to execute her, so she had to rough it out.
Clare was in some kind of hybrid between scenarios #2 and #3, but, thanks to Raki, Clare had to desperately try the impossible.
Deneve and Helen risked awakening all at once, but they weren't in danger when they did and no one was around to help them, so they had to try to pull themselves back because that's all they could do.
Jean was forced into awakening by Riful with no one around to execute her if she made it too far, so she had to put all her willpower into stopping awakening.

Well, those're my two cents, anyways. http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/959/rubelgp2.png

[Gangsta Spanksta]

The main reason there has probably only been 5 "known" cases so far. Is because the simple fact most belive it to be impossible, or that they awakened in a situation they where alone or unable to get help etc.

Yup, with the ghosts having Galatea, Clare, Cynthia and Tabitha, it should be real easy to half awaken the whole group minus Miata who is too unstable to try. The real question would be, would everyone be willing to be Half Awakened?

[iLney]

Luciela was roughly on the same level as Riful and Isley. Rafaela is roughly the same strength as Luciela. If Rafaela soul -- youki -- merges with Luciela's and even if some of Luciela youki is lost, then what awakens is Rafaela + some of Luciela. It seems far more likely that whatever awakens will be more powerful than an AO.

Thing is, I refuse to believe RIful is stupid enough not to know that 1+1>2.


Say if the combo was weaker than Riful, well then that would be disappointing -- anticlimactic. I'm sure as a writer he doesn't want to make it obvious, but writers also do not like to write things that are disappointing. He's already set things up with Riful playing the mad scientist, being overconfident in her abilities, creating a monster -- the control theme, same as the organization. What may happen is that Riful will get her child to play mother to, and to her senses that child is slightly less powerful than her, but Rafaela's specialty was hiding her power, just as riful hid her true power to the new generation. Rafaela's specialty is another thing setting this up. I just don't see the story as being more interesting if what Riful wants to happen, happens.

But Yagi did state that it was 50/50. Anticlimax? Nah. It would be our own fault not to follow his words :D. And what Riful wanted to happen never once happened. Maybe this is the time :)

Priscilla used 80% of her power. I don't know where you are getting this Raphaela used all her power to embrace Luciela stuff from. All her power would mean an Awakening. I'd have to go back and look, but was her face disfigured while hugging Luciela?

Then it meant when Priscilla was an AB, she always used 100% of her power. No one knew how strong Priscilla really was. The embracing stuff is easy to deduce. Raph had restricted herself for all those years just for that one moment, her life up to that point was, at least she believed so, fullfiled. There was no need to hold back. And Riful did say Raph was trying to protect her sister, and to kill the monster in Luciela she would use all of her strength then sealed herself and what remained of Luciela in an enclosed world just for those two.

I could be wrong about that using all her power part. But I'm positive about the protection part. Raph would be extremely pissed if someone forcefully destroyed the little world she created for Luciela and herself.


I don't know if there is another spy on the island. But you make it sound like getting a spy on the island as an MiB is a cinch.
Rubel cannot be everywhere, gathering every piece of information just on his own. Furthermore, if the DK sent a spy that they had no control of/ could not communicate with, it would be very weird, if not silly.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Thing is, I refuse to believe RIful is stupid enough not to know that 1+1>2.

It is hard to believe, but how can you discount the possibility altogether? In fact, Riful might not have discarded it either; I mean, she did say that if it was stronger than her that she would kill it before it fully awakened. Maybe she is confident enough in her abilities to kill an AB twice as strong as her while it hasn't fully awakened and isn't fully aware of its situation. But look how this is setup, look at what kind of Claymore Rafaela is. It is possible that whatever awakens won't be showing its full power; it could be instinctual for it to do so even. Wouldn't it be ironic if Riful got to play mother to something, and that something accepts Riful as her mother until Riful ends up betraying it?


And Riful did say Raph was trying to protect her sister, and to kill the monster in Luciela she would use all of her strength then sealed herself and what remained of Luciela in an enclosed world just for those two.

I just like to say that Yagi-sama writes such that the characters in the story make false assumptions in what they think. Just because one of the character thinks something is true doesn't mean they are right. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but you can't use Riful's speculation as evidence here. ;)

Rubel cannot be everywhere, gathering every piece of information just on his own. Furthermore, if the DK sent a spy that they had no control of/ could not communicate with, it would be very weird, if not silly.

You making false assumptions on how spying works 100% of the time. There are spys sent out into situations with no means of communications and they have been taught to do just what it appears Ruble is doing, to quietly sabotage things. Also terrorist cells often times work the same way. If Rubel has no means of communication with the DoD, then he is doing exactly what he is supposed to be doing.

[irvinethearcher]

No your quite wrong regarding Half awakening. We have observed 3 Half awakenings in the manga out of a total of 5 known to have happened. In all of those cases there was 1 Factor that was present at all of them, that factor is "Outside Help":


This ist no explanation why this happened only in this generation. Rubel had heard it the first time after the miria ophelia accident and prevented the information to get to the org. It is nearly impossible that rubel could hide this information from the org in every generation so far. It must be something which is connected only to clare's generation. (altered manufacturing process of the claymores?) There are 4 half awakened in only one generation. This can not be a coincidence.
We even don't know if jean is of the same stuff like the fab4 because every one from the fab4 got a power up. Helen could prolong her limbs. Deneve could do ultrafast regeneration and clare got her sensing ability perfected and got stronger and faster from it. Jean got nothing from it as far as we know. But we don't know how strong jean was before her partial awakening.
Jean didn't do the same like clare or the others. She awakened but preserved her spirit somehow and got the help from clare who did her part in bringing jean back.

@stream
yeah the org is careful about yoki release and warned her claymores. Probably because every time the claymores going over 80% they awaken. Except the 4 from clare's generation. And there are those special powers helen and deneve have got from the ha. You know such things can not be hidden always from the other claymores. The org puts all this effort in a fragile concept like soul link. If Alicia/Beth are half awakened it would probably far more easier to do the soul link or to get a claymore who is able to awaken and come back at will. If Clare could train it over and over with help from galatea she would probably achieve this in a few months but she can not do because of the yoki release and the loss of her camouflage.

An important point is that rubel was lucky to be the first one who heard about the half awakening phenomenon. As a spy he has no interest in the developement of a controllable AB so he tried to kill the HAs from clare's generation to let the org think that to create a controllable AB isn't possible. This was a coincidence. But it is impossible that it was a coincidence that in clare's generation 4 - 5 claymores are able to half - awakening. There have been claymores in every generation(i' sure of it) who experimented with her yoki and awakened, who get provoked like miria and awakened who had an anchor like raki and awakened despite that anchor. Helen for example was someone who could "somehow" turn back. She wasn't very stable or had a strong mentality. She IMO simply has the "gift".
Clare for example had the mentality of an nemesis with flaming rage and despite that she didn't awaken. What i want to say is that there is more than simple mental controll to the ha -phenomenon. There must be a biological component or something like that.

[hell88]

aww... *rolls around on the floor* i don't know about you guys but that was a boring chapter. T.T

Yeah that was kind of boring, all that waiting for something to happen and not much happened at all. Only Clare, Cynthia, and Yuma found out some things.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

This ist no explanation why this happened only in this generation. Rubel had heard it the first time after the miria ophelia accident and prevented the information to get to the org.

I think he did explain it. I'm not sure if you got his points or are just not addressing them, though. Let me readress 'em.

1) If a claymore gradually awakens and doesn't want to be an AB, she sends out a black card and gets her head chopped off.

2) if a claymore fights a superior opponent, the only chance they have is to fully awaken. If they start to awaken during a fight, but stop themselves, then they are dead. Clares powers only gradually grew after her half-awakening.

3) If a claymore fights in a group and start to awaken, they'll usually will get killed by their fellow claymores or kill their fellow claymores if they awake.

4) The Claymore pulling back a fellow warrior from awakening was pioneered by Galatae and requires a Claymore of special skills. It is also a recent thing.

Anyway this generation had a lot of special cases happen. Clare was about to get decapitated by request. But she had someone she cared for -- something unusual for Claymores to have -- to help her come back. I also have a sense that Raki is no ordinary human being, so it could be some kind of power he has. I started feeling this when Clare half-awakened, and then how Yoma and ABs think that he's a tasty one -- an extraordinary snack, one of a kind... Miria's half awakening was to spite Ophillia. You don't usually have a psycho like her to spite on a mission. Clare's other two half-awakenings and Jean's half-awakening are all due to Galatea's innovation. Helen's and Deneve's half-awakenings are still a mystery we haven't seen.

There is also the posibility that other claymore's have half awaken and they either didn't know anything was special, or they hid it.

[irvinethearcher]

Still no explanation. We had about 80 generations of claymore. Despite those things like black cards you mentioned there must be cases of half - awakening before. Perhaps all 5 - 6 generations one case. It can not be that such a thing stay's hidden that long. That is my first point.
the second is, we suddenly have 4 - 5 cases in only 1 generation of ha. That can not be a coincidence and black cards, warnings and all those points don't explain this. Okay?


The Claymore pulling back a fellow warrior from awakening was pioneered by Galatae and requires a Claymore of special skills. It is also a recent thing.

No recent thing. Galatea did this the first time and wondered that she could bring clare back. Galatea is an exception herself with her sensing abilities.
There is only one eye in every generation and it works alone most of the time.

There is nothing different in this generation about the rules and missions. Miria is an example that despite claymores were around they didn't kill her before she
could half-awaken.
This could be a plothole or there is something special about the claymores of clare's generation.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Still no explanation. We had about 80 generations of claymore. Despite those things like black cards you mentioned there must be cases of half - awakening before. Perhaps all 5 - 6 generations one case. It can not be that such a thing stay's hidden that long. That is my first point.
the second is, we suddenly have 4 - 5 cases in only 1 generation of ha. That can not be a coincidence and black cards, warnings and all those points don't explain this. Okay?

A lot of special things also happened in this generation that you can't discount. 1) A Claymore has human following them that is special to them. The last time that happened was Teresa. 2) A Psychopath is the leader of an AB Hunt. I'm sure an Ophillia doesn't happen all to often. 3) A Claymore fighting an AO. 4) AO building up Armies of ABs and the org sending half their soldiers to die fighting in the North. Clare's time seems quite volatile to me.

[irvinethearcher]

Theresa was fighting against an awakened Nr. 1. The accident of the sisters ...
Orphans are the claymores. The most of them are. Clare was the first who participated on her own will. Those orphans saw terrible things and therefore many of them
are traumatized and perhaps psychopathic. Look at miata. What we have seen was the normal way life goes in claymore. The exception are the fab4.
The only difference we know so far between clare's generation and the rest is that a claymore took the flesh of another warrior instead of a yoma.
All what you say can not explain why in about 80 generations no half - awakened claymore could be detected and suddenly 4 - 5 of them exists.
Only my theory explains this so far. Perhaps someone in this forum has another plausible idea how to explain this. Perhaps the org already knows from the half - awakening but rubel thinks otherwise.

[Stream]

Thing is, I refuse to believe RIful is stupid enough not to know that 1+1>2.
:dots:

Am I the only one to notice something hilariously amiss with saying this? It's almost sig-worthy.

[iLney]

oh my bad :heh:
Ye you can take it.

@Gangsta Spanksta: Remember that Raciella does not need to be stronger than Priscilla. Something equivalent to Riful combined with Riful herself is enough for the Org to piss in their pants :D And I took what Renee saw as a warning shot from Raph "Hey, b***! One step closer and you're history!"

The kind of espionage you mentioned does exist but the result of the spy's performance is obvious enough. This is an infitration into a research facility, and it is obvious that the agenda was not to take it out completely but to make it rotten inside out, which takes time. For such, the DK does need information regarding which states the Org was in so that they can take couter measure. The other spies need not to be constantly in the island. They can just occasionally visit the island.

[irvinethearcher]

aww... *rolls around on the floor* i don't know about you guys but that was a boring chapter. T.T

No, in a way it was very enlightening, because we know now that the org didn't intend to kill the half - awakened claymores but rubel.
I thought about all the time about that contradiction and couldn't find an answer. Now i now :)

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Theresa was fighting against an awakened Nr. 1. The accident of the sisters ...
Orphans are the claymores. The most of them are. Clare was the first who participated on her own will. Those orphans saw terrible things and therefore many of them
are traumatized and perhaps psychopathic. Look at miata. What we have seen was the normal way life goes in claymore. The exception are the fab4.
The only difference we know so far between clare's generation and the rest is that a claymore took the flesh of another warrior instead of a yoma.
All what you say can not explain why in about 80 generations no half - awakened claymore could be detected and suddenly 4 - 5 of them exists.
Only my theory explains this so far. Perhaps someone in this forum has another plausible idea how to explain this. Perhaps the org already knows from the half - awakening but rubel thinks otherwise.

I just don't see a problem with it unlike you. Teresa didn't need to awake to fight rosemary Ophillia has proven that a high ranking Claymore can single handedly take out a AB. I think Teresa could take out an AO as a Claymore. Also, Claymores probably didn't have a chance to half-awake during the accident of the sisters. I still say that for every case of half-awakening we know about that there was a special factor involved that is rare. The two cases we didn't witness, well they don't help this debate any. Also, the half awakenings that may have occured in the past, could have been hidden, unnoticed, or explained away as an awakening where the AB pretends to still be a Claymore, much like Rosemary. There are just so many possibilities here that I see no need to question why the org hasn't learned about half awakenings. Oh yeah, and then there is the other possibility that the org does know, and that the puppet master is but a puppet himself.

[irvinethearcher]

Rubel is the Magnificent Bastard, as of now. I'm kinda disappointed that he's not the Chessmaster, but "merely" a spy. Maybe, Sensei will throw us a Wham chapter by stating that Rubel is a high ranking fellow "on the other side".

Yuma said that rubel should have some means to destroy the org and rubel didn't contradict.
What could those "means" be? IMO Rubel is far from being a mere spy, he has probably special powers too.

I just don't see a problem with it unlike you. Teresa didn't need to awake to fight rosemary Ophillia has proven that a high ranking Claymore can single handedly take out a AB. I think Teresa could take out an AO as a Claymore. Also, Claymores probably didn't have a chance to half-awake during the accident of the sisters. I still say that for every case of half-awakening we know about that there was a special factor involved that is rare. The two cases we didn't witness, well they don't help this debate any. Also, the half awakenings that may have occured in the past, could have been hidden, unnoticed, or explained away as an awakening where the AB pretends to still be a Claymore, much like Rosemary. There are just so many possibilities here that I see no need to question why the org hasn't learned about half awakenings. Oh yeah, and then there is the other possibility that the org does know, and that the puppet master is but a puppet himself.

I told that about teresa and rosemarie or the sisters only to explain that in every generation the claymores have to endure extreme pressure situations which can trigger the awakening. And i'm sure there were more claymores which adopted a child. Why not? And those children probably didn't want them to awaken and rather died than to let that happen with their "mothers".
The problem is that all those points like raki, ophelia, experimentation with her limits 4 sure happened with high probability during the time of the other generations too. But nothing happened! Why?
You have to think like a researcher. You have 80 perhaps slightly different experiments with slightly different start probabilitys which have nearly the same outcome and the 81 is an anomalie, why is that so? Rubel fears that the org will from now on trying to use the same start conditions like in clare's generation and trying to refine them in a way that every
claymore is able to half-awakening. this is my theory.
What is different at probe 81?
Rubel fears about the half-awakening state more than about Alicia and Beth and their Soul - Link.
He would tremble if he knew how clare defeated rigardo.


There are just so many possibilities here that I see no need to question why the org hasn't learned about half awakenings.

Deneve's regeneration ability? Helen's prolongation of body - parts. Miria's mirage was before the half - awakening, i think, but i have to reread to be sure.
Such things don't stay unnoticed for long. okay, miria got her phantom before the ha.

[graywolf202]

Still no explanation. We had about 80 generations of claymore. Despite those things like black cards you mentioned there must be cases of half - awakening before. Perhaps all 5 - 6 generations one case. It can not be that such a thing stay's hidden that long. That is my first point.
the second is, we suddenly have 4 - 5 cases in only 1 generation of ha. That can not be a coincidence and black cards, warnings and all those points don't explain this. Okay?


No recent thing. Galatea did this the first time and wondered that she could bring clare back. Galatea is an exception herself with her sensing abilities.
There is only one eye in every generation and it works alone most of the time.

There is nothing different in this generation about the rules and missions. Miria is an example that despite claymores were around they didn't kill her before she
could half-awaken.
This could be a plothole or there is something special about the claymores of clare's generation.

What if for the past 80 generations partial awakening hasn't happened? Not because it wasn't done but because it can't be done. Every generation is different (need support for this), I suppose that the Org stumbled on a "blend" that allows partial awakening without knowing it.

I would also suppose that the Org tried partial awakening before but screwed up every time so they eventually abandoned the idea and went for the twins effect.

However, . . .

in the Northern War, Rigard didn't look completely surprised by Clare awakening her legs. He merely acknowledged that it was a clever trick (like ABs do that all the time, recall Isley and Riful awakening only their arms).

[However, . . . Irene makes a full Yoki release on her arm every time she does the Flashsword thing. It appears that she controls it though so it doesn't fully awaken.]

However, . . .

in the Northern War, the turtle AB didn't seem very familiar with Claymores going past their limit then going back so it's either it's rare or that AB isn't updated.

However, . . .

Riful's reaction (in the Witch's Maw) when she saw Clare past her limits then go back shows that its the first time she saw it or at least it's the first time she saw it's effect on the Claymore's speed and power.

Also, . . .

in the Slasher's Arc, Miria didn't tell about any case of previous half-awakening. She said it was all a hypothesis.

Hmmmmmmm . . . . .

Oh yeah, it's getting confusing. Partial awakening . . .maybe we should distinguish between half-awakening the whole body and awakening a limb.

[graywolf202]

The problem is that all those points like raki, ophelia, experimentation with her limits 4 sure happened with high probability during the time of the other generations too. But nothing happened! Why?
You have to think like a researcher. You have 80 perhaps slightly different experiments with slightly different start probabilitys which have nearly the same outcome and the 81 is an anomalie, why is that so? Rubel fears that the org will from now on trying to use the same start conditions like in clare's generation and trying to refine them in a way that every
claymore is able to half-awakening. this is my theory.
What is different at probe 81?
Rubel fears about the half-awakening state more than about Alicia and Beth and their Soul - Link.
He would tremble if he knew how clare defeated rigardo.


Deneve's regeneration ability? Helen's prolongation of body - parts. Miria's mirage was before the half - awakening, i think, but i have to reread to be sure.
Such things don't stay unnoticed for long.

Oh didn't see you there. I agree with you.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

I told that about teresa and rosemarie or the sisters only to explain that in every generation the claymores have to endure extreme pressure situations which can trigger the awakening.


:) No one questioned that other generation had situations of extreme pressure which can trigger an awakening. If they hadn't, then there would be no awaken beings. All the Half awakenings we've witnessed so far had an outside influence stop the full awakening. There is no proof that those also occurred in the past.



And i'm sure there were more claymores which adopted a child. Why not? And those children probably didn't want them to awaken and rather died than to let that happen with their "mothers".
The problem is that all those points like raki, ophelia, experimentation with her limits 4 sure happened with high probability during the time of the other generations too. But nothing happened! Why?



I'm sure Claymores have had pets in the past. :) But seriously, I think that the organization would step in. I think having a human follower brings you one step closer to elimination. I still think it is extremely rare, and if the human is a girl then the Claymore may have doomed her humanity. Also, just haven't a child follow you is not enough a rare occurrence to create a half awakening. You need to have a child, an awakening, the child being around, and the child stepping in. What kind of mother would put her child in danger and let it be near battle?

You have to think like a researcher.


The scientist in me may think that way when experimenting, but the writer in me thinks that you are over thinking things. Having the org do 81 different experiments in the composition of yoma in Claymore, doesn't necessarily lead to a good story. If you get too technical and specific about things, well the story could get boring.


[However, . . . Irene makes a full Yoki release on her arm every time she does the Flashsword thing. It appears that she controls it though so it doesn't fully awaken.]

. . .

Oh yeah, it's getting confusing. Partial awakening . . .maybe we should distinguish between half-awakening the whole body and awakening a limb.

Do we have to distinguish? It is quite possible that Irene is half awakened due to her technique.

[irvinethearcher]

The scientist in me may think that way when experimenting, but the writer in me thinks that you are over thinking things. Having the org do 81 different experiments in the composition of yoma in Claymore, doesn't necessarily lead to a good story. If you get to technical and specific about things, well the story could get boring.

Don't be so sure of this. You can be right and i think to much about this but you should know by now how yagi works.
think about the unbreakable claymores.
Someone in the forum mentioned it and we thought that this was only something yagi didn't think about and yagi was to lazy to paint cracks in the sword or such thing:heh:
How wrong we all were. Yagi must have planed it from the begining or at least he had an idea about this during the early chapters of claymore.


Oh yeah, it's getting confusing. Partial awakening . . .maybe we should distinguish between half-awakening the whole body and awakening a limb.


You're right. Partial awakening is what clare did during the rigardo fight. Half awakening is simply spoken the ability to break your limits release or discharge all the yoki and go back. Normal claymores aren't able to discharge without the help from someone like clare or galatea who could align yoki. But a ha can do it like helen did or deneve.
For example look at poor hilda's shivering hands during xtra chapter 2. She was before her limit. The yoki was in her body and she couldn't "discharge" it anymore.
Clare was "discharged" and felt good after her first half-awakening. Those symptoms like shivering hands - none of the fab4 had them and they all seem to be imune to the constant use of yoki.


All the Half awakenings we've witnessed so far had an outside influence stop the full awakening.

Deneve and helen were not provoked and didn't had an anchor.
And here is the next point. Limit experimentation and awakening from it should be something which happens often in every generation.

[PureYoki]

There is only one explaination i find logicall enough.
The org slightly change the manufacturing process of every generation and record those changes.
The changes they aplied to the manufacturing process during clare's generation made the half - awakening phenomenon possible. Normally if rubel didn't sabotage, the org know has achieved a scientifical break through. But rubel tried to prevent the org from knowing about the half - awakening phenomenon.

Good theory but I think one major problem still stands: Why is Rubel the only one who knows HA?

There are many unanswered questions:

Why did Ophelia report to Rubel instead of her handler? Why didn't Ophelia talk about it with her handler later? What about the other girls who were in AB hunt with Ophelia and Miria, didn't they report to their handlers? There were 47 claymores in different parts of the continent and how come only those who operated in Rubel's region experienced HA? How did Rubel send Fab4 to the 6 armed AB, does he have such authority in the org.'s hierarchy?

My only logical explanation is that the org. knows about HA and they also know Rubel is a spy. They feed Rubel with false information to deceive the other side.

[Awakened]

My only logical explanation is that the org. knows about HA and they also know Rubel is a spy. They feed Rubel with false information to deceive the other side.

Best theory so far. Everything would make sence.

It would be to there advatage to control what the D.o.d knows.

The Org spying on the fab4 will fit into this theory.

[yezhanquan]

Then again, is Rubel that dumb? I don't think so. Reminds me of the CG scenario where Lulu and Suzaku knew exactly who the other person really was, but had to keep mum about it.

[Awakened]

I think the Org have been very interested in Clare for a long time. During the Witch-mar they made finding Clare top priority, why would a #47 be top priority?

We also have Clarice, she might be a 1/4 yoma just like Clare.

I also wonder what kind of trainning did Alicia and Beth get.

[irvinethearcher]

Good theory but I think one major problem still stands: Why is Rubel the only one who knows HA?

There are many unanswered questions:

Why did Ophelia report to Rubel instead of her handler? Why didn't Ophelia talk about it with her handler later? What about the other girls who were in AB hunt with Ophelia and Miria, didn't they report to their handlers? There were 47 claymores in different parts of the continent and how come only those who operated in Rubel's region experienced HA? How did Rubel send Fab4 to the 6 armed AB, does he have such authority in the org.'s hierarchy?

My only logical explanation is that the org. knows about HA and they also know Rubel is a spy. They feed Rubel with false information to deceive the other side.

Chibamonster asked why rubel helped clare to preserve theresa's strength and what were his intentions in doing this.
I can ask your question but not chiba's:
Answer:
Rubel was not alone. His right hand is ermita. Rubel knows from the ha-state because ermita told him. Ermita watched the fight from the fab4 with galatea from the distance IMO this is nearly a proof that ermita and rubel are on the same side.
AND ermita said to galatea that she probably soon has to cross swords with them so he intended to use her to get rid of them but rubel used the war in the north to do it more in a more elegant way. Miria and clare were observed by others during they half awakened the first time and rubel was clare's handler - jackpot.
Perhaps rubel knew that he had to search for things who are away from the norm, so he found out about deneve and helen.(????not a good point from me but i have no other idea????)
Best theory so far. Everything would make sence.

It would be to there advatage to control what the D.o.d knows.

The Org spying on the fab4 will fit into this theory.
This is very interesting and i didn't thought about this but IMO rubel is still undetected by the org and the org knows nothing about the ha state.
Riful didn't know, the puppet master didn't know, galatea didn't know ...

[yezhanquan]

The great spy game...... Why do I have a sudden urge to search for Cold War-era spy novels?

[irvinethearcher]

Probably because claymore is like cold war ;)

[iLney]

Maybe Rubel was just lying about everything.

At least, we know Ermita had some doubts:)


Rubel was not alone. His right hand is ermita. Rubel knows from the ha-state because ermita told him. Ermita watched the fight from the fab4 with galatea from the distance IMO this is nearly a proof that ermita and rubel are on the same side.

Uhm, we can see it in the other way...

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Good theory but I think one major problem still stands: Why is Rubel the only one who knows HA?

There are many unanswered questions:

Why did Ophelia report to Rubel instead of her handler? Why didn't Ophelia talk about it with her handler later? What about the other girls who were in AB hunt with Ophelia and Miria, didn't they report to their handlers? There were 47 claymores in different parts of the continent and how come only those who operated in Rubel's region experienced HA? How did Rubel send Fab4 to the 6 armed AB, does he have such authority in the org.'s hierarchy?


It is possible that Rubel does debriefings. I mean, if you think about it, in most cases probably nothing interesting happens after a claymore fights a yoma or team defeats an AB. There might be a specific department that handles debriefing and the oh so dreaded paperwork that goes with it -- the other MiB saying, "Ha! Rubel, sucker!" when thinking of the paperwork. :) It all depends on how bureaucratic the org is, and Bureaucracy can have its disadvantages. It could also be the responsibility of the leader to report, hence Ophilia making the report and not the others. That all the half awakenings happened in Rubel's region is an assumption. Rubel just might have that kind of authority in the org's hierarchy. He's intelligent. He's in charge of Raphaela, whose purpose seems to be to get rid of troublesome Claymore. In fact, isn't that what he was doing? He could be in charge of getting rid of trouble makers.

My only logical explanation is that the org. knows about HA and they also know Rubel is a spy. They feed Rubel with false information to deceive the other side.

I too think that the org knows about HAs and is onto Rubel. I personally think that Ophillia reporting it to Rubel was a test. I'm sure that Rubel isn't the only diabolical intelligence in the org. I don't know about the false information. I don't know if Rubel is able to communicate to the outside. I see the situation sort of like "The Hunt for the Red October" where you have a spy turned saboteur.

[yezhanquan]

Now that we're talking about spies, how about double agents?

[irvinethearcher]

In fact, isn't that what he was doing? He could be in charge of getting rid of trouble makers.
Good point, now we know how he found helen and deneve :)
They make allways trouble as we have seen in pieta :)

@chibamonster
And the inheritance experiment made sense in a way too.
Rubel knew that such a experiment would take place soon or later anyway so he wanted to be the one who was in charge and could
control the claymore with the power of theresa. He is a smart guy. It was convenient to him that clare came to him with teresa's head.
Be close to your friends but be even closer to your enemies - that's how rubel thinks.

Perhaps rubel and ermita are superior to the other mibs because they are spies and the mibs are scientists.
Scientists don't think like spies, they research and invent but don't weav a web of intrigues.

[Sci-Fi]

Perhaps Rubel is afraid that the Org will discover Claymores that have or develop the ability to fully awaken their bodies while controlling it with their human minds and are able to return to normal. Could be one of the reasons Rubel and a few other MIB's don't want Claymores to live long lives and it has been hinted that some, esp the males, have awakened to various stages and opted not to return to human form and become AB's or AO's...not to mention attacking and eating humans as a side effect.

Teresa may have had the ability to fully awaken and return to normal. In the extra scene, she says " I don't usually do this often, but I feel if I don't at least once in awhile...I'll forget how to". Many assume she meant using her yoki to the point where her eyes change, but at the same time, Rosemary felt/sensed a 'crazy yoma energy' but yet later in the 'Marked for Death' arc, none of the high ranked Claymores sensed this same crazy yoma energy and only noticed Teresa is only using enough yoki to gain an advantage over them. That 'suggests' Teresa has experienced something she wished to keep secret from everybody and will only use it if she can't sense anybody (the Org's eye) close enough to measure her powers or will have to eliminate witnesses.

[Aquillion]

Funny. IIRC, I asked in the last thread why the org would want to kill half-awakened Claymores (since it seems to go against their goals); now we know.

Also... while Claymores might have half-awakened before, look at how most of them view the Org -- they tend not to trust it. This would go double for Claymores that half-awakened (who would fear simply being killed out of hand).

In fact, out of all the half-awakened Claymores we've seen, only one had any chance of being discovered by the Org -- Miria, who happened (by sheer coincidence) to half-awaken on an AB hunt, after the fight was over (so Ophilia was both present and free to pay close attention to her, enough to notice what was happening.) If she'd half-awakened during the fight -- at a much more logical time -- it's very likely nobody would have noticed, or would have thought they'd made a mistake in their perception. We've seen no indication there were every any reports about the other half-awakenings to anyone (although Rubel might have discovered them once he knew what to look for).

The point is, half-awakenings might be common, but Claymores who would go to the Org and report "Hey! I almost awakened and became a murderous bloodthirsty monster! Please kill me!" are probably very very rare. (In fact, none have done it that we've seen.) Many probably just thought it meant they were doomed to a final awakening soon, and quietly sent out their black card.

The only other people who could recognize a half-awakening for what it is would be other Claymores. And even if another Claymore did witness their half-awakening, how many would report it? Many Claymores seem to look out for each other, and trust their companions more than the Org. Others would just kill them before they had a chance to recover from their half-awakening. It took an extreme combination of factors (a Claymore who was both 'antagonistic' and 'curious' like Ophilia, so she would wait to see what happens and then report a fellow Claymore; a situation that would cause someone to awaken out of combat so that antagonistic Claymore would be paying attention closely enough to realize what happened; and someone who actually reaches the point of half-awakening without fully awakening.) You also need good yoki-reading abilities (to realize with certainty that they went over their limit and came back.)

Remember, when Galatea sensed a half-awakening back in The Slashers, she immediately covered for it, even though she didn't even know who it was (her thought bubbles reveal that she knows that one of them awakened and calmed back down, but she tells the man in black she was mistaken.) It's logical to assume that most Claymores (ones who aren't psychotic) would do the same thing... and there's not really anyone else who could realize what happened.

And Claymores don't really know much about what they are, when you get down to it; they certainly don't know their purpose. Many Claymores could easily dismiss what happened as unimportant. (Again, the fact that Ophilia was psychotic and looking forward to Miria awakening probably lead her to notice and report something almost anyone else would have waved off. Anyone but her would have interfered to keep Miria from awakening in the first place, or would have killed Miria before she had a chance to awaken, if they were paying enough attention to notice what happened after.)

It's not so odd to think that the odd combination of factors that would lead to a half-awakening getting reported have only happened once. And on top of that, when you think about what half-awakening is, it's very easy to dismiss as someone just being mistaken -- it could even have been reported before and dismissed by whoever it was reported to.

[Awakened]

Funny. IIRC, I asked in the last thread why the org would want to kill half-awakened Claymores (since it seems to go against their goals); now we know.

Also... while Claymores might have half-awakened before, look at how most of them view the Org -- they tend not to trust it. This would go double for Claymores that half-awakened (who would fear simply being killed out of hand).

In fact, out of all the half-awakened Claymores we've seen, only one had any chance of being discovered by the Org -- Miria, who happened (by sheer coincidence) to half-awaken on an AB hunt, after the fight was over (so Ophilia was both present and free to pay close attention to her, enough to notice what was happening.) If she'd half-awakened during the fight -- at a much more logical time -- it's very likely nobody would have noticed, or would have thought they'd made a mistake in their perception. We've seen no indication there were every any reports about the other half-awakenings to anyone (although Rubel might have discovered them once he knew what to look for).

The point is, half-awakenings might be common, but Claymores who would go to the Org and report "Hey! I almost awakened and became a murderous bloodthirsty monster! Please kill me!" are probably very very rare. (In fact, none have done it that we've seen.) Many probably just thought it meant they were doomed to a final awakening soon, and quietly sent out their black card.

The only other people who could recognize a half-awakening for what it is would be other Claymores. And even if another Claymore did witness their half-awakening, how many would report it? Many Claymores seem to look out for each other, and trust their companions more than the Org. Others would just kill them before they had a chance to recover from their half-awakening. It took an extreme combination of factors (a Claymore who was both 'antagonistic' and 'curious' like Ophilia, so she would wait to see what happens and then report a fellow Claymore; a situation that would cause someone to awaken out of combat so that antagonistic Claymore would be paying attention closely enough to realize what happened; and someone who actually reaches the point of half-awakening without fully awakening.) You also need good yoki-reading abilities (to realize with certainty that they went over their limit and came back.)

Remember, when Galatea sensed a half-awakening back in The Slashers, she immediately covered for it, even though she didn't even know who it was (her thought bubbles reveal that she knows that one of them awakened and calmed back down, but she tells the man in black she was mistaken.) It's logical to assume that most Claymores (ones who aren't psychotic) would do the same thing... and there's not really anyone else who could realize what happened.

And Claymores don't really know much about what they are, when you get down to it; they certainly don't know their purpose. Many Claymores could easily dismiss what happened as unimportant. (Again, the fact that Ophilia was psychotic and looking forward to Miria awakening probably lead her to notice and report something almost anyone else would have waved off. Anyone but her would have interfered to keep Miria from awakening in the first place, or would have killed Miria before she had a chance to awaken, if they were paying enough attention to notice what happened after.)

It's not so odd to think that the odd combination of factors that would lead to a half-awakening getting reported have only happened once. And on top of that, when you think about what half-awakening is, it's very easy to dismiss as someone just being mistaken -- it could even have been reported before and dismissed by whoever it was reported to.

I understand what you are saying.
The problem is Ruble been the onlyone to notice, and constantly been at the right place all the time.

[yogi6807]

Maybe the next chapter will be like this.
I still want riful to join the ghosts. Maybe that will happen soon. Cynhia and Yuma take Renee to safety, duff gets creamed and Claire and riful fight toghether and win.

[Ryuken]

Maybe the next chapter will be like this.
I still want riful to join the ghosts. Maybe that will happen soon. Cynhia and Yuma take Renee to safety, duff gets creamed and Claire and riful fight toghether and win.

Somehow I don't see this happening but it is also not entirely out of the question.:)

[graywolf202]

I think I got it now.

I understand what you are saying.
The problem is Ruble been the only one to notice, and constantly been at the right place all the time.

Well, he's not. And he doesn't need to. Because . . . HE'S NOT ALONE. The way he talked, he implied that they were spying on the Org. Who knows how many MiBs are spies.

[SuperiorX]

after reading this chapter something comes to mind:
Rubel might have been completly responsible for Lucielas awakening after all he was present at the incident and most likly made it all look like it was Rafealas fault. Luciela killed half of orgs warriors and caused massive damage to the research facility that org had and due that failure org gave up on that venue of research altogether even thou it looked plausible.

and it did cause a big setback to the org and org chose a more dangerous path twins with both of em nearly having blank minds that somewhat seems more dangerous way of going about it then the previous path.

the other thing for how long has rubel been at this? he was around in Rafelas time when teresa was minature version of herself and god knows how many other set backs he has caused to the org as they might have found what they were looking for ages ago exept Rubel made it disapear or made it appear to org as a bad mistake and then they went of and disposed of it.

now how old is Rubel???

[Ancient Soul]

TO ADD TO ERMITA'S THEORY :

Claymores under Ermita (if we assume that he was always there on top and he still is) and he is handler of ranks 3,4,5,6 with a few exceptions (Rafaela nr.5 - Rubel ; Miata nr.4 - Rado - not sure about this) :

Irene (eye???), Noel, Sophia, Elda
Galatea (eye), Ophelia, Miria
Audrey, Rachel, Renee (eye)

The EYE is always under his control (good if he is a counter-spy\spy).Not sure if Irene was an eye but she sensed Teresa in Clare so i think she was.Powerfull claymores under his control all the time (good to observe improvements thru generations).

I ASSUME that he was\is all claymores above handler.

NOTE : As manga go we know only that Galatea, Ophelia and Miria were his claymore.But i think that The ORG has a strict hierarchy.Take the fact that Orsay even after Teresa & Priscilla failure is in charge of Alicia & Beth.Rubel always seem to be in charge of purge missions.

Now :


1) He is experienced at field work : analyzing claymores tehniques and abilities and their overall strenght.I think he was either a trainer before that or he has military background.

In extra scene 2 his analize of Miria was flawless : how the phantom work, that she is ALREADY the best leader in all claymore army , that she deserve single digit status (a month later Miria was nr. 8).In fact Ermita could have made her nr. 6 already because of her leadership abilities but choose to wait.This also make me
believe that Ermita try to select his claymores worthy of 3-6 ranks and thus he like "scouting" when one of his claymores is INVOLVED (in that case Ophelia was supposed to be the leader of that team).

Why did i said INVOLVED?

So far we know that he observed two fights : Miria in extra scene 2 and Miria in slahers.In both cases one of his claymores was there with him observing the fight.

If this is "always" true (that Ermita spy on his claymores missions and like to observe them) then there is a chance that Ermita was observing :

a) Hilda's hunt - when Miria half-awkened. (Ophelia was involved and most likely short after this hunt Miria got nr.6 - i think that this is important because would mean that Ermita took her under his "eye" knowing that she half-awakened in order to observe her better).

b) Ophelia, Clare hunt - when Ophelia went crazy.

c) I admit is a little inconsistent with Audrey&Rachel hunt.He should have been there...but the original hunt was finished and he could have left before Riful show up.The main problem is that Ermita didn't show up yet after the time skip!There must be a reason for this!

d) Far-fetched i know but : Teresa's hunt (all his claymores save Elda - nr 6. - were involved).

NOTE : When Rubel went before the council to report that Clare is missing...guess what?Rimuto say that the body of awakened Ophelia was ALREADY found!By who?I bet on Ermita.He either was there or searched ASAP for her when she didn' t report. Why?Bcause she was his claymore.There is also a chance that Ermita know that Irene was there - and as i assume Irene was even for a short time his claymore.Also Rubel say that is a stalemate (i dind't understood in which matter though).

NOTE : If Audrey, Rachel and Renee are his girls is quite courious that all of them were just hunted by Riful.


2) He is rather close to his claymores and also courious about their development.There is an amount of trust between them.I think mostly because his claymores 3-6 ranks ussualy live longer than other claymores and a thin connection establish.He want to see if overall claymores improve thru generations (not necesarry in strenght\skills but most important about yoki control).

In two instances he is show talking with his claymores while observing the fight of others claymores.With Ophelia while observing Miria.With Galatea while observing Miria.In fact sound a bit suspicious that in both cases Ermita is show observing a battle involving Miria but both can be eplained due to the circumstances.

He talk rather unusual to both Ophelia and Galatea.In first case he explain to Ohelia what she saw in the battle in front of them.Sound like a trainer who give a lesson to his claymore.With Galatea his remarks about childrens sound strange in the mouth of a MiB and goes against The ORG wish that claymores should have a short live.His remark about "monsters" is about half-awkeneds in my opinion.

He let Ophelia do her way : let her be when she didn't want to join the fight in ES2(first one); let her participate in ES2 at Hilda's hunt.I'm not sure if the hunt of Ophelia\Clare was ordered by Rubel but if he was he let her go.

Most likely he delayed Galatea's purge as most as possible.Rubel stated that he wanted Galatea to die (when he find Jeane\Clare) but didn't happened.In exchange Galatea got harder and harder missions as punishment.

As soon Audrey and Rachel report a serach team was send after Renee.So Ermita knowed ASAP which will be the next target.A bit strange that Rubel joined the search team.I think Rubel decided to keep an eye on Ermita's claymores.

3) He is suspicious when one of his claymores is involved.This may add to that "parental concern" of which he was talking about.

When Miria was send to the slashers he got suspicious and called for Galatea.To fuel to that the fact that Rubel's girl was there most likely triggered his couriosity.

Since the slashers mission was ordered by Rubel and most likely labeled like a purge mission Ermita could't do anything but to obey Rubel's orders that time.This dind't stop him to add "by his own will" Galatea to the mission. :cool:
I'm sure 100% that Rubel didn't know know that Galatea was there.

4) Now about the relations between Ermita and Rubel :

I think is sure thing that Rubel is higher in THE ORG hierarchy than Ermita.While Ermita is in charge of ranks 3-6 Rubel is in charge of purge situations and can bypass all handlers except Orsay (i doubt that he can decide the purge of Alicia).

Off-screen Rubel had contact with Ophelia and Miria.On screen he had contact with Galatea.

MY GUESS : Rubel tried to sabotage all the time (and especially after he found that Miria is an half-awkened) Ermita by killing his claymores and at the same time using them for his dirty jobs.Ermita as i already said is a "silent spy" and chosed to observe Rubel's actions rather than confront him.

Rubel contacted Miria and tell her about DODs and such hopping that she would betray.Send Miria to die in the slashers.Send Clare with Ophelia.If they both die (Ophelia got his neck twisted so he was close and in the end died) good for him.
Wanted Galatea dead after his failure in Witch Maw.Most likely Ermita said that the new eye is not ready and saved Galatea.Because Galatea didn't get killed Rubel "talked her out of the ORG" in the end.

Yes most likely Galatea would have been purgeed but we see that Renee after seven years is not even close to her so i think that Rubel just pushed things a bit.

So Ermita lost in a few months :

Miria (purge\north), Ophelia (bad luck?), Galatea (talk purge).

I think Rubel realized that Ermita is a pain in the ass and tried to kick him a bit.

This goes against an "full alliance" between Ermita and Rubel but not exclude that Ermita may be a double agent. :eyespin:

So my guess is :

Ermita is a SPY\COUNTER-SPY send by The ORG side (or at least a few power-ups) to observe things and gather informations :

->Keep an eye for enemy spies.
->Keep an eye for something unusual and any improvenemt thru generations.
->Report back to the mainland.

Is always better to have someone to confirm The ORG reports and also to tell them about some "hidden failures".

My personal belief that the power-ups on the mainland between

(1) a controllable claymore army with small chances of awakening and
(2) a few over-powered controllable AB

will choose (1)

They try to conquer and controll the world in the end not to destroy it.

[Xhokhusmak]

I'm sorry for the interruption, but is there a place where I can just enjoy chatting about the latest chapters with other fans without the endless pages of theories and speculations?

[Droplet]

I'm sorry for the interruption, but is there a place where I can just enjoy chatting about the latest chapters with other fans without the endless pages of theories and speculations?

There's plenty. Youtube for one.

[yezhanquan]

Actually, I don't know why speculations appear in the chapter discussion threads. There is a thread for speculation in the forum.

[KillerYomaFromSpace]

Actually, I don't know why speculations appear in the chapter discussion threads. There is a thread for speculation in the forum.

that's because each chapter opens new windows for speculation, that will mostly get obsolete with the next one

@Ancient Soul: I like your theory, I hope one day Ermita goes ninja on Rubel

[yezhanquan]

I hope for a character like Guilty Gear's Slayer to appear. Isn't very interested in the war that's going on, but feels interested enough to add his cents' worth of knowledge/expertise/whatever into the mixture.

[Gooral]

Actually, I don't know why speculations appear in the chapter discussion threads. There is a thread for speculation in the forum.
Maybe because otherwise we wouldn't have anything new to talk about?
"Wow, Rubel is Organization Enemies spy and Renee wants to escape because when Raciella awakens only Riful will be able to survive it." x1000 isn't better than what's happening now. Actually I find theories and speculations quite interesting and it's appropriate IMO that we're speculating here rather than in a thread where there are tons of speculations mixed up, regarding 1st chapter, 23rd, etc. Here are speculations regarding 84th chapter and that's convenient.

(...) My only logical explanation is that the org. knows about HA and they also know Rubel is a spy. They feed Rubel with false information to deceive the other side.
If so then only because they know that as long as he's with them OE (Organization Enemies) won't try to act more directly. Otherwise it wouldn't make any sense to keep him alive. They could torture him and interrogate him what he knows and then kill him. OE wouldn't be able to place another spy so easily because every new face would be suspicious. They wouldn't be able to cut Rubel off from important information without making him suspicious and he still would know about most important things (like soul-link experiment). IMO it's unlikely.

(...)
The org slightly change the manufacturing process of every generation and record those changes.
The changes they aplied to the manufacturing process during clare's generation made the half - awakening phenomenon possible. Normally if rubel didn't sabotage, the org now has achieved a scientifical break through.
I don't think they're making any changes now. I even doubt that they've had much leeway in making the changes after first successful claymore was produced. Maybe when they were starting "claymore experiment" and had only claymore-prototype they tried with different ingredients but now? Especially after Teresa and Priscilla I would think that they would try to recreate exact same production method if they were keeping records. Unless Rubel had always sabotaged their research and switched records but I doubt MiB would be that sloppy.

Also I don't see that much of disadvantage of knowing about half-awakened claymores. MiB could have problems to make people to become half-monsters and the real problem would be that they could easily disobey their "masters" as we see is happening now. Soldiers like Alicia and Beth are more appropriate for their purposes and I'm sure the org knows that it's possible but it's now what they really want. I'm sure because they've gradually increased Alicia's strength and they must have noticed changes in her strength in claymore form before and after she awakened.

@Ancient Soul
You've written the best theory in this thread so far, very interesting thoughts.

[yezhanquan]

I guess when it comes to Claymore speculation, the Epileptic Trees and WMGs tropes will kick in.

[Ancient Soul]

@KillerYomaFromSpace
@Gooral

Thanks for your appreciations. :)

@KillerYomaFromSpace

I agree, would be intersting to see a fight between Ermita and Rubel.I look forward to it. :D

[Droplet]

@KillerYomaFromSpace
@Gooral

Thanks for your appreciations. :)

@KillerYomaFromSpace

I agree, would be intersting to see a fight between Ermita and Rubel.I look forward to it. :D

Do you think it would involve fisticuffs or something more exciting?

[Ancient Soul]

Do you think it would involve fisticuffs or something more exciting?

Ermita will throw is clothes and reveal...

->perfect muscles
->a big "stigma" on his abdomen
->two claymores knifes
->a few claymore metal shurikens and chains. ;)

Rubel will throw is glasses and clothes and reveal...

->two DODs eyes
->a GUN :mad:

Rubel : Ah, it seem that i'm more advanced (gun vs knife) :p
Ermita : Hm! (throw a knife exactly in Rubel eye) :D
Rubel : Maybe not! :(

[yezhanquan]

Well, let's remember that Hirata Hiroaki gave Rubel a not-so-old voice. I still believe that he can shape-shift.

[agentlegiant]

Ermita will throw is clothes and reveal...

->perfect muscles
->a big "stigma" on his abdomen
->two claymores knifes
->a few claymore metal shurikens and chains. ;)

Rubel will throw is glasses and clothes and reveal...

->two DODs eyes
->a GUN :mad:

Rubel : Ah, it seem that i'm more advanced (gun vs knife) :p
Ermita : Hm! (throw a knife exactly in Rubel eye) :D
Rubel : Maybe not! :(


hmm... I don't think Rubel has well built body and neither has Ermita.
Taking into acount of their ages (only god knows...), if they both ever fight each other,

'Ermita will throw is clothes and reveal...'

->crooked back (he seems to have one in the manga...I think..)
->a big "stigma" on his abdomen with a bear belly (maybe this is the reason he covers himself with clothes so much).
or could he be actually a muslim woman?
->and weapon of his choices. holding coran in his left hand and a knife in right hand?

'Rubel will throw is glasses and clothes and reveal...'

->two out of focus DoD eyes.
->'a GUN :mad:' with rotten bullets (I doubt he ever used one since he is a pimp of claymores)
->bold head

In any case, I don't think this kind of situation will ever happen in this manga :)

[Sleepy Speculator]

I don't know how many spies infiltrated the org but i do have a slight problem with Ermita and Rubul being them simply because of the positions they fulfill, *and* the fact that Rubul whilst likely to blurt out the truth is also a tricky sort that would have you say he was a triple agent all along!!! (slaps head).

But even if the org are scientists they have a huge research facility and governments tend to provide security for those sort of things to prevent infiltrations and information loss etc.
Now look at the two positions that Ermita and Rubul cover.

Ermita - high single numbers and 'the eye'
Rubul - covert operations and purges

In any idea of security you wouldn't want either of those two to be even possible spies.

Now as for half awakenings... i'm still of the opinion that whilst they do on occassion happen this generation is special in that all of them were in one place and able to exchange information, Helen has obviously modded her equipment and stands out like a sore thumb so her being friends with super fast regenerating Deneve, meant two of them had already become aware of it as a possibility. The org's problems isn't that they exist according to Rubul but that they are 'guinea pigs' at the point they become half awakened, which is what brings to mind trying to get them to awaken yet again to see if they can pull it off.

It's only after Galatea's comments about Deneve, that Ermita absent mindedly mentions about monsters. I think if you look at the whole fight it becomes obvious that given the opportunity none of them would risk it again, and at least two of them would rather die (Helen and Miria). Clare turned the fight around by being a Teresa prodigy, and so wasn't actually at risk of dying against that Ab. Yet it's hinted the war in the North was observed so they would know at least one claymore out of 24 others who wouldn't go near their limit awakened. This says to me that awakening is kinda rare amongst claymores even when faced with death.

[irvinethearcher]

I don't think they're making any changes now. I even doubt that they've had much leeway in making the changes after first successful claymore was produced. Maybe when they were starting "claymore experiment" and had only claymore-prototype they tried with different ingredients but now? Especially after Teresa and Priscilla I would think that they would try to recreate exact same production method if they were keeping records. Unless Rubel had always sabotaged their research and switched records but I doubt MiB would be that sloppy.

Also I don't see that much of disadvantage of knowing about half-awakened claymores. MiB could have problems to make people to become half-monsters and the real problem would be that they could easily disobey their "masters" as we see is happening now. Soldiers like Alicia and Beth are more appropriate for their purposes and I'm sure the org knows that it's possible but it's now what they really want. I'm sure because they've gradually increased Alicia's strength and they must have noticed changes in her strength in claymore form before and after she awakened.

Hide this for 80 Generations and even the oldest beings like riful didn't know about.
IMO riful awakend numerous claymores during her life and she didn't know anything about it. Look how the claymores were observed by the mibs. For example miria in xtra chapter 2. If you are a claymore and you have gained new abilities you will use them in battle if you have no other choice. Miria stated clearly that abilities like deneve's or helen's shouldn't be possible to use at low yoki release. The eye who probably often scans the fights from the distance will get the info if someone goes over her limit and comes back like galatea informed ermita. If
something like that happens often it will arouse suspicion i'm sure of it.
And we have at least 4 documentet cases in clare's generation.
To the alicia/beth argument. IMO rubel introduced galatea to alicia/beth so he knows what the org knows about alicia/beth. The org probably knows that claymores who awaken and com back getting stronger from it but they probably don't know that it is possible without a soul link. You know, they even used twins without personality to ensure that the soul link works.
There is another possibility: Rubel lied.

[KillerYomaFromSpace]

I wonder now what can Rubel really do, I mean, how can he be so confident now that there is nothing that can stop Clare and the others from ripping him appart? is he one of those huge monsters from the other faction and can shapeshift? or is he made of intelligent liquid metal?

edit: to not spam with crap, I'll add this to this post:

Rubel is actually the evil nazi from indiana jones: http://www.theraider.net/films/raiders/gallery/dvdscreenshots/129.jpg

[irvinethearcher]

He is perhaps able to fight like an AB. Perhaps he is like priscilla an AB who had supressed his yoki for a long time. IMO the org stole their research from something that already existed in nature before and was used as a weapon from the other side.

[yezhanquan]

I half expect him to have an AT-field reaction should Clare try to slash at him with her claymore.

[evil_kenshin]

He is perhaps able to fight like an AB. Perhaps he is like priscilla an AB who had supressed his yoki for a long time. IMO the org stole their research from something that already existed in nature before and was used as a weapon from the other side.

I can forsee him having some sort of transformation, it would be good to see a AB vs DoD fight happening, though most likely it will be him vs the ghosts.

[Yoko Takeo]

They will probably try killing him in the next chapter if Rubel is a demon from the mainland. However, another reason why Clare and the others can't kill him is because while Rubel is trying to get them killed, he's just as interested as they are to destroy the organization considering he's on the opposing side of the battle. That's why Clare and the others can't kill him, and probably why Miria didn't kill him either. She knows she has use for his info and Rubel probably knows that Miria and her group can help too, but if they die, that's just as well for him. It's a win-win situation for Rubel, but with Rubel's death, they have no more means of knowing what exactly the org is up to.

[KillerYomaFromSpace]

Rubel doesn't want the organization destroyed, he already said that if its destroyed it will be re-built, he is more interested in sabotaging their progress

[iLney]

To the alicia/beth argument. IMO rubel introduced galatea to alicia/beth so he knows what the org knows about alicia/beth. The org probably knows that claymores who awaken and com back getting stronger from it but they probably don't know that it is possible without a soul link. You know, they even used twins without personality to ensure that the soul link works.
There is another possibility: Rubel lied.
He introduced Galatea to Alicia/Beth to make her leave the Org. Rubel knows too well the characteristics of claymores within the Org (even a seemingly no-name like Undine got in his memory after 7 years). I don't agree with the "coming back and getting stronger" thing. If that was the case, Alicia would be wtfzomghaxorlasergunpewpew powerful after numerous of times returning from her total awakened form.

The most important feature of soul link as well as half-awakening is the control while using a large amount of yoki. Rubel and the Org only concerned about the controllability of the warriors. This could hint that power of each individual is capped at their awakening :)

[Gooral]

@Freedan
At this point do they really need Rubel? They're about to strike organization down and what could he offer them? He's not trustworthy person so even if he proposed to silently lead them into HQ so they wouldn't have to fight from the beginning, would they be stupid enough to go with it? They have Galatea to warn them about org's movement, Miria that knows few secrets thanks to her own investigation, Miata and Clare so they don't have to be afraid of MiB's strength.
IMO the reason they won't kill him is simple: they're not cold blooded killers or avengers of Miria type, surely Clare isn't. Although they wanted them killed they've received much of their help in the past (especially Clare) so I would think that instead they would beat him up and deliver him to the org. What I find disturbing is why would Rubel wish Clare good luck if he wanted to kill her the second time (when he sent her to mission with Ophelia). It doesn't make any sense. For all we know Rubel might have told them he's a spy so they would believe his words and thought they've had common goals.

[evil_kenshin]

IMO the reason they won't kill him is simple: they're not cold blooded killers or avengers of Miria type, surely Clare isn't. Although they wanted them killed they've received much of their help in the past (especially Clare) so I would think that instead they would beat him up and deliver him to the org. What I find disturbing is why would Rubel wish Clare good luck if he wanted to kill her the second time (when he sent her to mission with Ophelia). It doesn't make any sense. For all we know Rubel might have told them he's a spy so they would believe his words and thought they've had common goals.

Clare if anything is the most vengful, considering the whole Priscilla thing and her life as a half yoma for the most part has been because she is seeking revenge for Teresa.

It makes sense Rubel's a spy, considering Yagi's brought up the whole mainland, rather than having all the characters go there ; we have Rubel as the representitive of the mainland (else there would be no point really mentioning the mainland let alone DoD's)

[Droplet]

Just thought that if Rubel doesn't tell everything Clare wants to know, then Clare can simply 'force' the answers out of him. As a spy, he should know much more than what he's letting off. :)

[iLney]

@Gooral:
Let's be real here. They cannot strike the Org down. As Rubel said, doing so any makes the Org change its location and more cautious, and that is only the case when the Org failure is a direct result of sabotaging. Rubel wanted the Org itself admit the impossiblity and imperfect of a controlable AB thus forced to closed down by the mainland HQ, which is a very wise move. Now if the Ghost forcefully takes out the Org, the only thing they will recieve is heavy retaliation from the mainland HQ, which they cannnot afford.

7 girls vs the world? Even if the people of the continent decides to help them, it will always be hopeless. Such foolish action would only result in more havoc for the people of the island who they, supposedly, trying to protect. Mainland's possible reactions may also be the reasons why those AO didn'nt completely wipe out the Org

The only way out for them imo is to go with Rubel plan.

[Gooral]

@evil_kenshin
Her vengeance concerns mainly direct perpetrator of her misfortune, i.e. Priscilla, MiB only helped her to accomplish that goal. If it weren't for them she would never be able to avenge Teresa, she doesn't go to berserk mode when she sees MiB, Miria on the other hand is foaming at the mouth when she remembers what they did. Clare is helping Miria because it's the right thing to do but revenge isn't sth that's driving her, IMO.

@iLney
If they wanted to go with Rubel's plan they would wait until organization destroyed themselves but Miria doesn't want to wait. She specifically instructed the ghosts to resolve their problems, she will wait a bit and if necessary fight them herself. I don't see much of a chance for them to strike them down either, that's why I added "they're about". Anyway, what Mira wants is revenge so maybe they will focus on MiB only or destroying their research documentations? Who knows?

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Actually, I don't know why speculations appear in the chapter discussion threads. There is a thread for speculation in the forum.

So we should read here, and then go to another thread to post? :rolleyes: How impractical! As for the other poster, what's left to discuss about the last chapter? We went through that and are now left with the speculations. Here is how A Claymore Chapter thread usually goes

Speculation, while waiting for the spoilers --> spoilers --> Talk about Spoilers --> Chinese Scanlation --> Talk --> Japanese Raws --> Talk --> English Translation --> Talk about the chapter --> Speculations.

Quite frankly, there is only so much you can say about a chapter at this point. What new, profound think have you found in the chapter that we don't know about? :D

[Droplet]

Can we reevaluate the Ghosts' reasons for wanting to take down the org? I'll start with what I know...then hopefully we'll add some more then judge if its really worth the effort.

1. Yoma comes from the org.
2. The org exploits orphans for their research.
3. The org is guilty of extorting the public.

Then, the consequences:

if the ghosts manage this:

1. The org relocates.
2. Dods may achieve victory over the org. Then it might be revealed that they're the evil ones after all.

[Droplet]

So we should read here, and then go to another thread to post? :rolleyes: How impractical! As for the other poster, what's left to discuss about the last chapter? We went through that and are now left with the speculations. Here is how A Claymore Chapter thread usually goes

Speculation, while waiting for the spoilers --> spoilers --> Talk about Spoilers --> Chinese Scanlation --> Talk --> Japanese Raws --> Talk --> English Translation --> Talk about the chapter --> Speculations.

Quite frankly, there is only so much you can say about a chapter at this point. What new, profound think have you found in the chapter that we don't know about? :D

Aw, he's actually raising a good point though :)..I agree with you though, it's just very practical to pour all our thoughts in any latest chapter thread. We're all probably too lazy to go back and forth here and to the speculation thread.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

'Ermita will throw is clothes and reveal...'
'Rubel will throw is glasses and clothes and reveal...'

*they embrace*

Clare: Oh God! My eyes, my eyes!
Galatea: It really sucks being the Organization former eyes... Shut mind off, shut mind off...

[Droplet]

I so wasn't expecting my comment about Rose to turn into a Teresa Priss blow up, sorry about that :(

this is a late comment, but we really should name this phenomenon.

I'll use the Godwin's law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law) as a model:

"As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."

In our case, as a chapter thread grows longer, the probability of comparison involving Teresa and Priscilla approaches one.

What should we name this law?

[Gangsta Spanksta]

IMO riful awakend numerous claymores during her life and she didn't know anything about it.

She didn't seem to have a reason to do so until the Abyssal of the North started raising an Army. In fact, before that it was quite clearly stated that Abyssal Ones or Dwellers of the Deep kept a low profile.

Just thought that if Rubel doesn't tell everything Clare wants to know, then Clare can simply 'force' the answers out of him. As a spy, he should know much more than what he's letting off. :)

But as a spy, he's probably been taught not how to talk and he probably would just let Clare kill him.

this is a late comment, but we really should name this phenomenon.

I'll use the Godwin's law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law) as a model:

"As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."

In our case, as a chapter thread grows longer, the probability of comparison involving Teresa and Priscilla approaches one.

What should we name this law?

The Loli Abyssal vs. The Twin Goddesses Theory? :D

[SagaraSouske]

I think Rubel is being manipulative in this chapter in the information he choose to reveal to Clare and Co. I don't think Rubel 'hid' half awakening from the Org for the reason he gave nor do I think the Org would think half-awakening is beneficial to their experiment. In fact, I believe it is the opposite. They want perfectly obedient soldiers, not half-awakened claymores that are powered up and have an independent mind and likely would not follow Org's order blindly. Half-awakened claymores is a problem for the Org as they represent a potential major thorn on their sides - a tool too powerful and yet too hard to control that can potentially go against the Org, which is exactly what 7 G did.

Racilla is probably stronger then Ritful but not so strong that she can destroy her. Ritful will likely fail to either: recognize awakened Racilla is stronger then her; or kill Racilla before she awakens even if she saw that Racilla may be too strong to control. Renee compare to Racilla to Ritful as two monsters. She wants to get away before the fight breaks out between the two. Many clues seems to hint the power difference is not completely lopsided. Personally, I hope awakened Racilla somehow retains Raf's personality and become more of an ally to the 7G rather then against them.

[Droplet]

She didn't seem to have a reason to do so until the Abyssal of the North started raising an Army. In fact, before that it was quite clearly stated that Abyssal Ones or Dwellers of the Deep kept a low profile.



But as a spy, he's probably been taught not how to talk and he probably would just let Clare kill him.



The Loli Abyssal vs. The Twin Goddesses Theory? :D

hmm, that doesn't quite cut it. we need something that has a certain ring to it. :)

I think Rubel is being manipulative in this chapter in the information he choose to reveal to Clare and Co. I don't think Rubel 'hid' half awakening from the Org for the reason he gave nor do I think the Org would think half-awakening is beneficial to their experiment. In fact, I believe it is the opposite. They want perfectly obedient soldiers, not half-awakened claymores that are powered up and have an independent mind and likely would not follow Org's order blindly. Half-awakened claymores is a problem for the Org as they represent a potential major thorn on their sides - a tool too powerful and yet too hard to control that can potentially go against the Org, which is exactly what 7 G did.

Racilla is probably stronger then Ritful but not so strong that she can destroy her. Ritful will likely fail to either: recognize awakened Racilla is stronger then her; or kill Racilla before she awakens even if she saw that Racilla may be too strong to control. Renee compare to Racilla to Ritful as two monsters. She wants to get away before the fight breaks out between the two. Many clues seems to hint the power difference is not completely lopsided. Personally, I hope awakened Racilla somehow retains Raf's personality and become more of an ally to the 7G rather then against them.

Having an Abyssal Two side with you could be a little costly though, you'd maybe have to feed it a town's population at least once a month.

[SagaraSouske]

Well, I don't think Racilla will be a normal awakened being and prob will be one that can control her 'urge' like Pris does.

[irvinethearcher]

I don't agree with the "coming back and getting stronger" thing.
Define "getting stronger". If "getting stronger" means in a linear way you're probably right but if
they only logarithmically getting stronger there is no problem with getting stronger after each
ha/partial a. because the amount of strength gained from it would be ridiculously little after several ha/pa.

[iLney]

In our case, as a chapter thread grows longer, the probability of comparison involving Teresa and Priscilla approaches one.

What should we name this law?
It is so obvious Priswin's law :D

</hide>

[Gangsta Spanksta]

cheapshot's law? :D

[Stream]

It loses its original meaning, however.

In Usenet, Godwin's Law also means that whoever starts comparing others to Nazis and/or Hitler has automatically lost the discussion and the discussion ends there. (That's actually led to some people intentionally invoking Nazis and Hitler in an attempt to crash a thread.)

Teresa and Priscilla comparisons are just much ado about nothing.

[KillerYomaFromSpace]

...aaaand here we go again (I hope not =P)

[iLney]

go where?.... You mean the Priswin's law? :D

[KillerYomaFromSpace]

go where?.... You mean the Priswin's law? :D
yes, some of that BS and now mixed with a pro-Hitler post that you just deleted

[Gangsta Spanksta]

The Priscilla The Nazi Law? :p

[Negativedark]

@Gooral:
7 girls vs the world? Even if the people of the continent decides to help them, it will always be hopeless. Such foolish action would only result in more havoc for the people of the island who they, supposedly, trying to protect. Mainland's possible reactions may also be the reasons why those AO didn'nt completely wipe out the Org

The only way out for them imo is to go with Rubel plan.

I wouldn't say that seven girls vs the world and winning is impossible in the Claymore world. Priscilla and two abysals could probably beat everyone else combined on the landmass Claymore takes place on, and possibly even the mainland. I mean Riful alone could easily take out a dozen Awakened Biengs. And I doubt that many if any of the AB's who fought against the DOD's were at the abyssal level. So if the ghosts do learn how to do controlled awakening, yeah they might very well be able to win this. Don't forget that Claymore is still a shonen series, where the main charecters could end up each beating a million mooks with no trouble.

[iLney]

@Negativedark:

Idk....

If Yagi answered the question how the Org's side did not lose before the Claymore project and after a long span of failures and why Rubel, supposedly the only one on the DoD's side witnessed the power of those AOs, remained so calm(I mean if the Org had the potential to produce such fearsome creatures, why would the DoD have the patience to wait for the Org to rot inside out? Especially with the most recent success of Alicia, if the AO is that strong, would Alicia alone can change the tide of the war and destroy the DoD?), all the questions would be answered :)

I still don't understand why Isley, the 1st AO ever, didn't destroy the Org completely; apparently at that time nothing on the continent would stop him. It's very illogical that he suddently wanted the continent using the power of Priscilla after all those years. Such ambition decreased to time, not increase....

[Gooral]

Exactly how would Rubel know Clare partially awakened? It was in Rabona, in the cathedral's catacombs (which usually are underground) and it should be difficult to radiate youki through the surface, not to mention outside of Rabona. So how did Rubel know she awakened? Even Galatea couldn't tell that Clare awakened and returned, until she saw it with her eyes. What's odd Ophelia supposedly could sense it / smell it / taste it then why Galatea couldn't? Maybe someone told Ophelia about it? And how did he locate Raphaela? Was it old-fashioned investigation, asking people around, looking for possible shelters? Or was it Miata's ability? (On the side note: exactly how could they produce such useful claymore?) I don't know if it was shounen type of play (i.e. "sheer" coincidence) or Rubel's cunningness/abilities but it's strange he wasn't stroke down by Uma and conveniently wasn't there when other MiB approached. Is it possible that he can sense cloaked claymores?
Another thing, if Rubel believes that MiB will make new research facilities after they're destroyed (i.e. they have resources to do it) what stops them from making another laboratory somewhere else now? It seems that MiB aren't hasty at all, over 100 years went by and all they've accomplished was imperfect soul-linked Alicia and Beth. Wouldn't having two laboratories instead of one increase efficiency of their project? If there really is war I don't see a reason why would they risk having everything in one place, it's no time for being careless or economical. And if OE exist and are afraid of them why won't they crush the org if they can? Wouldn't that prove that no matter what MiB do they won't be able to compare to DoD? Also if Rubel is a spy then he should have access to "claymorization" specifics and in that case they could create army of they own to counter any Alicia that may be nagging them.

[Droplet]

It loses its original meaning, however.

In Usenet, Godwin's Law also means that whoever starts comparing others to Nazis and/or Hitler has automatically lost the discussion and the discussion ends there. (That's actually led to some people intentionally invoking Nazis and Hitler in an attempt to crash a thread.)

Teresa and Priscilla comparisons are just much ado about nothing.

ah, you're right,

the model should have been

"As a [x] thread grows longer, the probability of [y] approaches one."


Anyway, let's pause that for now I suppose.

I wouldn't say that seven girls vs the world and winning is impossible in the Claymore world. Priscilla and two abysals could probably beat everyone else combined on the landmass Claymore takes place on, and possibly even the mainland. I mean Riful alone could easily take out a dozen Awakened Biengs. And I doubt that many if any of the AB's who fought against the DOD's were at the abyssal level. So if the ghosts do learn how to do controlled awakening, yeah they might very well be able to win this. Don't forget that Claymore is still a shonen series, where the main charecters could end up each beating a million mooks with no trouble.

I agree. The originall Awakened Beings couldn't have been that strong, hardly as strong as an AO. And if those prototype ABs fought fairly equally with the Descendants, then the average strength of DoDs couldn't have been as strong as Abyssal Ones too.

@Negativedark:

Idk....

If Yagi answered the question how the Org's side did not lose before the Claymore project and after a long span of failures and why Rubel, supposedly the only one on the DoD's side witnessed the power of those AOs, remained so calm(I mean if the Org had the potential to produce such fearsome creatures, why would the DoD have the patience to wait for the Org to rot inside out? Especially with the most recent success of Alicia, if the AO is that strong, would Alicia alone can change the tide of the war and destroy the DoD?), all the questions would be answered :)

I still don't understand why Isley, the 1st AO ever, didn't destroy the Org completely; apparently at that time nothing on the continent would stop him. It's very illogical that he suddently wanted the continent using the power of Priscilla after all those years. Such ambition decreased to time, not increase....

It somehow makes sense if the org was the aggressive side and that the DoDs were passively defending their side and good at it. That would explain their patience. It could also from a possible fact that they control half the world. Thus, plenty of resources. And if we find out the org also owns half the world, then it'd explain why it won't be difficult for them to reestablish their laboratory in another part of the world.

[Sleepy Speculator]

I'm still concerned that the news from the mainland is 100 years out of date. A lot can happen in wars and awfully quickly, and since it's history there hasn't been much detail on what is presently going on, Rubul saying he represents the enemies of the org is fine, but if that's only an archaic understanding of things it don't make any sense.

Add to this the fact that Rubul seemed generally interested in making Clare stronger, apparently taught her tactics? and had her trained in covert ops/ kept an eye on her through training, and i can't help but feel that Rubul is glossing over his intentions whilst stating the intentions of those he apparently represents. (It should be noted whatever it was he could have done to the Raphealla soul link to disrupt it he couldn't or wouldn't do to Alicia and Beth, and the org had no objection with him being there at all. So i think that was a natural failure, he does state however that everything done is done to protect humans from yoma)

Rubul telling Clare about Renee is because he knows her personality she would feel responsible that another warrior is in Riful's clutches because of Rifuls need for a yoki manipulator something she declined to do... Also she's not the sort to leave a comrade behind as shown in the rescue of Jean, only this time round it's Clare thats capable of going in alone and fighting a powerful AB as opposed to Galatea. The thing that worries me most though is that Clare has others in tow, and is gonna run into 2-3 possible AB's that could push her over the edge, poor Renee would then be stuck between 3 monsters.

[Korinov]

I'm still concerned that the news from the mainland is 100 years out of date. A lot can happen in wars and awfully quickly, and since it's history there hasn't been much detail on what is presently going on, Rubul saying he represents the enemies of the org is fine, but if that's only an archaic understanding of things it don't make any sense.

I partially agree. That would also make sense with the teories that show the "Organization Enemies" being some sort of a "defensive side" while the Org is looking for new weapons to take them down. In other case, the Org side would have been destroyed long ago because they still haven't produced any true reliable "monster weapons".

Rubul telling Clare about Renee is because he knows her personality she would feel responsible that another warrior is in Riful's clutches because of Rifuls need for a yoki manipulator something she declined to do... Also she's not the sort to leave a comrade behind as shown in the rescue of Jean, only this time round it's Clare thats capable of going in alone and fighting a powerful AB as opposed to Galatea. The thing that worries me most though is that Clare has others in tow, and is gonna run into 2-3 possible AB's that could push her over the edge, poor Renee would then be stuck between 3 monsters.

Looking at how the two storylines are running, it's quite possible that we'll end having "Witch's Maw II", with the only difference that instead of Galatea arriving at rush hour, there's a super lesbian incestuous sleepy monster in the middle of everything.

I can see Duph been torn to shreds soon :p

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Rubel may work for the DoD, but he's still seems to be an egotistical bastard that seems to think he's smater than everyone, hence the smiling. He seems to be the kind of person that does things that might not be to the DoD's advantage purely because it amuses him, like continuing Teresa legacy when Clare asks to have her flesh and blood put in her.

Here is an interesting question though, did he start putting Clare on AB Hunts because she Half Awakened or because she started having Raki Follow her around. A Veracious Eater is after all an alias for Awakened Being, used as propaganda for the masses. So, it appears that Rubel started putting Clare on AB hunts before she Half Awakened; he was just wrong about the first one.

[iLney]

Another thing, if Rubel believes that MiB will make new research facilities after they're destroyed (i.e. they have resources to do it) what stops them from making another laboratory somewhere else now? It seems that MiB aren't hasty at all, over 100 years went by and all they've accomplished was imperfect soul-linked Alicia and Beth.
Running two such projects at once would be too costly and redundant. The Org didn't collect fees from those villages for no reason. In peace time, it would be possible though I don't see how running two labs with a same project would significant increase the speed. And if the Org's side had something like a Congress, it would be a pain the neck to get just 1 lab running let alone 2 :heh: Even in WWII, the US only run two sites on the Manhattan project, but even then it were two different types of A-bomb.

Still from the look of it, one Alicia is not enough to win the war. From Rubel's coolness, I don't think 2 Alicia would do either.


agree. The originall Awakened Beings couldn't have been that strong, hardly as strong as an AO. And if those prototype ABs fought fairly equally with the Descendants, then the average strength of DoDs couldn't have been as strong as Abyssal Ones too.

Isley will smack you :D The strength of the ABs seems consistence; the only thing that made those early sux was their prone to awakening.

[Droplet]

@Ilney

I just presumed that the standard DoD was as strong as an AB in the midrange (something like #30-#15) rank. :)

[Gooral]

Running two such projects at once would be too costly and redundant. (...) In peace time, it would be possible though I don't see how running two labs with a same project would significant increase the speed. (...)
Too costly? Why? What does it cost them to have more claymores? They even don't care whether they return swords or not. They don't need much food or fancy clothes, they don't need entertainment, skin-care creams, lifting or liposuction. The only cost would be to build another laboratory. That's my point, if they could build another then why not having two at once? Even if it increased costs a bit they would have insurance in case sth went wrong with first research facility and let me remind you, war isn't the time to be economical when it comes to means to defeat your enemy. And I didn't write they should do exactly the same thing as they did in the first laboratory nor used "speed" word but "efficiency". They could focus on entirely different aspects, for example they could try to create only flying AB or Isley types that would be ranged soldiers. There are many possibilities. And if they could create another Alicia at the same time they would overcome problem of Beth's vulnerability because she would be protected by another Alicia. They obviously have narrow choice of twins on such a small island, why not using ones from different location with bigger population? Anyway I look at it they are in no rush thus I doubt there's a war in which MiB are in a pinch. By the look of things I doubt they even need AB to win this war, I mean being in one place for over 100 years (!!!) without much success and counting on other side incompetence (they've had 100 years to find this island)... What's even funnier OE don't want to lift a finger either, they just wait 100 years until Organization destroy themselves. Does it look like war? There's sth fishy about Rubel and all information he provided.

[Negativedark]

It's good that when we get answers we get more questions. I agree we cannot accept everything Rubel says at face value. But I do have a hypothisis as to why the war hasn't gone anywhere for 100 years. What if the DOD breed slowly? Both sides were wiped out in the battle of DOD and AB. The DOD faction had to retreat and rebuild their forces as well.

I wonder... If Rubel is a spy, couldn't he also give his side the information on how to make Claymores?

[Gooral]

(...)
I wonder... If Rubel is a spy, couldn't he also give his side the information on how to make Claymores?
Yep, I've asked that in my previous post (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=1965399&highlight=claymorization+specifics#post1965399) and that's one of the reasons I doubt his words.

[iLney]

Ye, you're right. A 100 year-going-nowhere lab would've been shut down long time ago. About the cost, there are many stuffs like chemicals, transportation, salaries, lawyers... well but let's not go there:D. The world, the Org, the war, DoD ect... were all from Rubel's mouth I believe. I wonder which one of them is true.

[yezhanquan]

The old saying that the best lie is the lie mixed in together with the truth, unless you go by Hitler's "Lying big always works" line of thought. Sensei better show us "the other side" soon.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

The Org didn't collect fees from those villages for no reason.

I disagree. I've been thinking about the Org. collecting from those villages on the isle for quite some time now. I don't think it has anything to do with financing the Org's activities; It seems to b e more of a control thing to me. I think all of the orgs funding comes from the mainland. Many of the villages we see Clare visiting look to be pathetic. With all these yoma and awakened beings running around, it seems that, that would sabotage any major production that would be economically viable. The mainland is probably at a more advanced technological state than the villages of the island. You really don't have exports from the island, since the villagers have sent expeditions out to find more land but never found any, and ships sailing off with a lot of goods to destinations unknown would arise suspicion. The villages on the island serve only two purposes: 1) a place to raise girls to harvest later as Claymores. 2) Feeding grounds for yoma and awakened beings. I think the economical system of the island -- trade between towns -- is just simulated to let the population live their lie. I don't think the villagers finance the Org. at all.

[Droplet]

I disagree. I've been thinking about the Org. collecting from those villages on the isle for quite some time now. I don't think it has anything to do with financing the Org's activities; It seems to b e more of a control thing to me. I think all of the orgs funding comes from the mainland. Many of the villages we see Clare visiting look to be pathetic. With all these yoma and awakened beings running around, it seems that, that would sabotage any major production that would be economically viable. The mainland is probably at a more advanced technological state than the villages of the island. You really don't have exports from the island, since the villagers have sent expeditions out to find more land but never found any, and ships sailing off with a lot of goods to destinations unknown would arise suspicion. The villages on the island serve only two purposes: 1) a place to raise girls to harvest later as Claymores. 2) Feeding grounds for yoma and awakened beings. I think the economical system of the island -- trade between towns -- is just simulated to let the population live their lie. I don't think the villagers finance the Org. at all.

I agree. The most the villages could do to help the org is to provide them with extra but insignificant income.

You could say that the island is a far away 'barracks'. But this raises the question whether the org sends powerful Claymores to the mainland. Right now, there's no indication though.

[Negativedark]

Actually I'm sure that the org doesn't need to send Claymores to the mainland. The org is the the R&D department. Their goal is to make controllable AB's. Any Claymore sent to the mainland is likly to rebel after learning the truth. The org can use loyal soldeirs from the mainland for hybrids, and have less trouble. The island is for trying to improve the process.

[Sleepy Speculator]

I don't think Rubul lies as such, i just think he tells irrelevent truths... In an isolated medieval setting, it becomes even more convenient as they have nowhere near the level of communications available to a modern world. The question should be what does the 'org' actually need an controllable AB for, they could have decimated the Dod with expendable Ab's no problem, though it's more likely they *did* actually do that and now need to clean up the mess they created, so why the focus on Ab's and not claymores? Well given that this is some 100 years old news i think that alot has changed...

With anyluck Cynthia will be able to help Clare to maintain her mind when she does go beserk...

[iLney]

I disagree. I've been thinking about the Org. collecting from those villages on the isle for quite some time now. I don't think it has anything to do with financing the Org's activities; It seems to b e more of a control thing to me. I think all of the orgs funding comes from the mainland. Many of the villages we see Clare visiting look to be pathetic. With all these yoma and awakened beings running around, it seems that, that would sabotage any major production that would be economically viable. The mainland is probably at a more advanced technological state than the villages of the island. You really don't have exports from the island, since the villagers have sent expeditions out to find more land but never found any, and ships sailing off with a lot of goods to destinations unknown would arise suspicion. The villages on the island serve only two purposes: 1) a place to raise girls to harvest later as Claymores. 2) Feeding grounds for yoma and awakened beings. I think the economical system of the island -- trade between towns -- is just simulated to let the population live their lie. I don't think the villagers finance the Org. at all.

The Org was trying to befriend the citizens of the continent, they even tried to elimiate Teresa to ensure that kind of relationship, just because she killed some bandits. Now if financial is just a tiny problem, they don't need to apply such cut-throat fees to those poor villages because it would be very counter-productive.
And since the theme is medieval age, the villagers pays in GOLD, not the toilet papers all of us using today. The economy seems alrite for me. Only the North suffered from population losses thx to Isley and his men, still a slave trade route prospered.

[Korinov]

The Org was trying to befriend the citizens of the continent, they even tried to elimiate Teresa to ensure that kind of relationship, just because she killed some bandits. Now if financial is just a tiny problem, they don't need to apply such cut-throat fees to those poor villages because it would be very counter-productive.

More than killing her to "befriend the citizens", I'd say the Org wanted Teresa's head because she simply disobeyed one basic rule. When you're constantly creating, feeding, raising and using an army of potential true monsters and you rule them with spartan discipline, doing what Teresa did deserve severe punishment. If they had forgiven Teresa, it would have happened again and again, and in the end it could have lead to a rebellion. That's the way the MiB think, and that's also the way a professional army does.

And since the theme is medieval age, the villagers pays in GOLD, not the toilet papers all of us using today. The economy seems alrite for me. Only the North suffered from population losses thx to Isley and his men, still a slave trade route prospered.

Since it's clear than the entire continent is a laboratory ruled by the Org, making villages pay taxes for "protection" only seems a way to have them controlled, to keep them concentrated on living and surviving. This avoids the reasonable risk of some people accumulating too much money and start thinking in higher goals. Remember that money rules the world.

[Elandyll]

It's also human nature to be suspicious of help being provided.

If there was no counter part asked as payment, people would get suspicious very quickly imo. I have no doubt that the Org do not really need the money being collected (except maybe to give to Claymores as change money for their travels), but pretending that they do it for money gives the villagers a quick and easily rationalized motive for what they do :)

[incube]

I dont think the Org cares about the humans in the island more than we see a insect... they are not even at the same lvl as lab animals since that is what Claymores are. Personally i think that charging money is a cover for ppl withing the org that doesnt know about the truth.

Also im wondering if a normal human can get stronger than a Claymore.... obviously not taking into account the regeneration powers and yoki sensing ability.

[KillerYomaFromSpace]

I dont think the Org cares about the humans in the island more than we see a insect... they are not even at the same lvl as lab animals since that is what Claymores are. Personally i think that charging money is a cover for ppl withing the org that doesnt know about the truth.

Also im wondering if a normal human can get stronger than a Claymore.... obviously not taking into account the regeneration powers and yoki sensing ability.

maybe the huge ammount of money they charge is meant to keep the towns poor. that way they can stop their development.

Rabona seems to be the most advanced town so far, and it may have something to do with the fact that they deal with yoma problems on their own

and no, I don't think a human can get stronger than a Claymore, maybe the strongest human can be stronger than a weak trainee, but no more than that

[incube]

Again i dont think the normal ppl are part of the Org concerns... they are just the motivation for Claymores to fight... nothing more. I dont think they are even considered humans and they woudnt hesitate to wipe a town or two if there is a need.

About my question... humans have been fighting agaist the dragon race for a while before having AB's.... and since normal Claymores are not enough to fight the Dragon guys i thought that somehow the humans in the outside world got to be as strong or even stronger than normal Claymores...

[Sordes Pilosus]

irvinethearcher Sorry for this late reply, but i was cought up in the first episode of Gundam00 Season 2 and Skip Beat raw and so here is my responses to you.


First off. Your argumentations are extremly flawed, Your stating no explenation when its fully explained with referances to the manga, while you yourself argue a line that has no basis in the manga at all to this point in time. This makes your arguments the flawed and unexplained ones, because your explenations has no platform to stand on. While i however do belive your not missing your target by "far" I will outline the known facts about awakening so far.

Awakening Types:

Gradual Awakening:
Gradual awakening is what we see with Clare's friend and the Black Cards the Org and Claymore's use. Gradual awakening is considering the "true fate" of Claymore's, all Claymore's reaches this point eventualy "its said" while some Claymore's like Irene seams to have avoided it, same with Rapahella but this might be tied to their Youki use making it less "strained." Gradual awakening however seams from what the manga shows to be one out of two things:

First option is that the Claymore "loses" the ability to control their youki over time its like a slippery eal and the more slime on it the harder it its to hold, so with time more slime builds up and they eventualy lose their grip and the gradual awakening process starts.

Second option is that the amounts of Youki increase to a point that it becommes to much for the individual Claymore. This theory has basis in that each Claymore seams to becomme stronger with time, everything from the amounts of Youki they can handle to general strenghts thats buildt up with experience etc. The key element here is that their bodies start producing more Youki then they can control so the gradual awakening starts.

Each of these two options are posibilities that has grounds in the manga. Which one it is, is uncertain as not enough information is revealed to determin it or if its a other option that has simular properties. All we truely know about Gradual awakening is that it takes time, and its a slow build up that becommes harder and harder to control and several awaken as result of the Black Cards "comming to late".

Impulse/Instinctive Awakening:
This is what was troubling the Male Generation. The feelings they got from the increased Youki was like Ecsatcy and the desire to tap into more and more lead large numbers to awaken in this way. Its been said that Helen has a simular trait in her as the males, the desire to awaken got her over her limit before she managed "somehow" to return. Impulse awakening is also the main source for awakenings during or as a result of battle. Deep wounds and trying to heal them makes it easy to go over ones limit, aswell as taping into a little to much while fighting an enemy and wanting to bring it down. Clare has shown a destinct weakness in this area on several acounts in the manga so far.


Manipulated Awakening:
Soul Link, and Forced awakenings sutch as Riful did to Katea belongs in this group. Its in a matter something that is resulted of outside elements. Soul Linked awakening sutch as Alica (while she can be counted as an halfawakened also due to this.) Allows her to return due to the Manipulative aid of Beth. Alica torturing Katea and Jean in a way. Lead to them awakening (Jean almost). While the actual awakening itself was Impulsive/Instinctive of group, it would not have happened under normal battle circumstances unless done by a Youki Manipulator like the one seen in Pieta. Sutch awakenings in general is out of ones own control and is the most rare form in general view and liklyhood of happending.

Half Awakening:
Half awakening is the term used to describe those that "actualy awaken to some degree" but dont lose to their Youma side. If we see it as the Personality of an Awakened as a reflection of ones own in a "twisted image" it would be simular to not losing to that twisted self during the awakening process and by that being able to return. The most common source for half awakening known to us, is the aid of outside influeses that seam to Stimulate the "Human Instincts". If we consider Awakening losing to that other side and its instincts, then with the revealment of Jean and her fullbody awakening but mind stil hanging on, its safe to asume that generaly the Human Mind is able to fully surpress the awakening process if the mind is stabile and strong enough. This however leads to those suitable for "natural" returns that the Fab 4 are (no manipulator bringing them back. as seen with Jean and Alica). It does mean that only a selected few are "suitable" and some kind of "Trigger" is needed. For Clare that Trigger was Raki and her bond with Theresa. For Miria it was her anger against Ophelia that made her able to surpress it. Partial awakening aint counted as an awakening, as its not an "awakening process" but it does fall close to Gradual Awakening when performed by Clare in Pieta.

__________________________________________________ ___________________

For the sake of keeping my post neat and responses easy to reply to. Id first like to hear if there are any arguments in the process's above. Basicly are the reason that we disagree etc based on whats above the line. Or not, if Yes then its "that" we should discuss first to see if we cant reach an agreement. Its atlest the 4 Known sources that leads to awakening or classic results of awakening or involving the actual process of awakening. Now i will go into "What does Awakening actualy DO ?"

Known Results from Awakening/Half awakening:

The first known factor is the Change of Personality. When one fully awaken one becommes an Awakened Being, their Memories arent really changed, but their personality does change. The awakening process changes ones line of thought, one could say it Twistes ones personality and gives you new youma like instincts (the need to feed on humans for instance.)

The second known factor is the change in ones Youki. It becommes more refined and becommes of a higher quality. In a sense one can describe this as: Normal Youki produces 100 Points of Energy pr Youki unit. Refined Youki produces 140 Points of energy pr Youki unit. So even if the amount of Youki stays the same ones general power increases due to the quality of the youki one has.

Third Known Factor: Increased Body Functions, one naturaly becommes a little faster, stronger, better regeneration, better ability to sense Youki and simular changes. Basicly ones body goes up a few steps in the ladder in terms of what its capable of doing. Helen's ability to stretch her limbs, Deneves Regenerative power's are also signs of this. Clare's ability to truely be able to read Youki "good enough" to put to practical use or even discovering her talent in the matter is also a result of this. What functions is gained is however likly affected of different factors like source material, personality, creativity and other elements of the one that awakens.

Fourth known thing it does, is so far only truely vitnessed in Pricilla to date. But Awakening also removes natural limiter's. Claymore's are constantly "evolving" and becomming stronger. Step by step, Awakening can also be a shortcut to reaching the end of ones own ladder. Basicly pushing oneself to ones Full Potensial right away. Clare's huge increase in power in her battle with Rigaldo is also a probable reason to explain her powerboost here. But it does seam that after one awakens one dont really becomme much stronger anymore. Or for instance why would Riful let them go ? "Becommes stronger then becomme stronger Awakened Beings" was what she told them, so this indicates that the last thing Awakening does, is "Drasticly reduce or Stop the Growth/Evolution of the one exposing it" this however only seams to affect the majority and the ones being pushed to their full potensial is rare, which would explain why only 3 Cases "so far" has lead to an Abyssyal One, and why the likes of Rosemary never gained that title, why Isley seams so much stronger the Rigaldo, even when Rigaldo was number 2 at the time and Isley 1 (Differance between 1 and 2 arent always "that big".).

_________________________________________

The 4 main points above are known things awakening does. It also makes you into a Monster with different bodily functions based on personality, claymore type and other factor's resulting in their Uniq shapes. But im not counting that one as its more of a result of the things listed above. To again further future replies. Any arguments or add ons to whats listed above that line ? If not i will now go into the 2 Main Kinds of Awakening.

Normal Awakening: Most awaken really against their will, they push past their limit and use as much as they can to surpress and fight it even if they know its "impossible" leading to more restricted awakened beings. Its likly that Rigaldo, Agatha, Duph and most others belong under this grouping of awakening. This results in the normal awakened, sure alot stronger then what they where as a Claymore, but nothing to what they "could have" becomme.

Willing Awakening: This is whats introduced by Clare, when ones willingly and consiusly goes over ones limit it brings out alot more power then it would have done if forced. This explains also some of Clare's large powerboost in Pieta, she pushed and demanded and got what she asked for. Its likly all Abyssal ones belong tot his group. Which since few actualy "want" and "push" their awakening so much few reaching Abyssal level is born. Pricilla probably wanted Theresa's head so badly and perhaps even not beliving that she couldent return that she pushed way past her limit and awakened fully.

________________________

Any arguments or adds to whats above this line ? The reason ive stated these 3 big groupings so far is to undermine what is to come now. The arguments i will present regarding Half Awakened Claymore's. Since i also base my theories on whats written above, facts as ive interpided whats been revealed in the manga to date. I welcome all debates regarding this also.


Now to the "Main Points" Your right one needs to think from a Experimental Standoint, but your wrong in beliving that the Org does Drastic steps to have "made these recent Generations or Clare's generation Special". The reason why you missed is that you forgot to think about the status quo that the Org needs to mentain. However you are true that that recent generations are very likly different from older, but its probably been a very slow process and functioned something like this:

Out all the Trainee's around 90% Will be proven to work creations. This is because the org is dependant of mentaining their Image to the population (If rebelion happened their source for new warrior's would drasticly be reduced. The loyality of their Claymore's be lost etc) However the remaining 10% are Experiments of different kinds. Clare was one sutch example. Alica and Beth also belongs to this group and very likly Miata and perhaps even Clarice. Those in the Experimental group that doesent show "visuable results" are put in normal testing, like Clare was. However those that show massive results either by normal or experimental ways are strictly observed to be sure to gather enough Data. Also from a experimental standpoint flukes are highly possible, so one test aint enough, so even say "Clare had been a huge sucess" reproducing the effects might be difficult, so they then probably put 2 or 3 of the "new trainee's" after this point during the same process. So the Org likly only runs 2 or 3 "New" Experiments on each generation, and they in general expect only once every other generation to see something that can be usefull or give data enough to warrant continued experiments.

However if all of those 2 or 3 new Trainee's also showed the wanted traits, then they will incorperate the method in larger and larger batches gradualy into their ranks. They wont replace all right away. Its slowly phased out. So out of those 80 Generations, its likly there has been no more then tops 4 "Evolutions" of Claymore's since then so to speak. So Clare's generation "aint special" in new times, that would have allowed for the Half Awakening to happend "only for them mainly" or made them more able to it. This is thinking over the situation from a experimental standpoint.

Now the reason why Half Awakenings likly aint known. Is related to the methods of awakening. If Captured and toyed with (Rare event likly.) you wont get a chance like Jean got in the sense. Rescue is really not something thats to be expected, so several that likly "could" have half awakened, cant because of the circumstances. Those that Gradual awaken, here there probably are a few that has half awakened over time, but lost their heads. But since most Claymore's are "so afraid of awakening" and wants to die human the larger % of the base "decides to die" before it becommes an option. Of those that awaken during battle they usualy would get their head cut off before doing so, or be unable to get the "needed trigger" to stop, and its not far fetched to belive many awakened while in a simular situation to what Clare was with Rigaldo, fighting the enemy desperatly but unlike clare awakened, a Youki Manipulator would have been able to pull alot of these back had they known about the posibility or how. Its a rare talent to manipulate Youki in Claymore's. Then its the fact most Claymore's are loner's, this means most of them dont form deep emotioal bonds to anyone or anything that can act as that trigger to make them fight off the awakening process. This is the main reason, then the fact already mentioned. Its not a topic Claymore's would talk about, Helen was extremly shocked when asked. And i dont think she would have told if Clare hadent first. Its just something you naturaly hide except perhaps in the rare case you got a close bond with someone else ie Helen and Deneve as they shared it. So the liklyhood of more half awakenings over the years and generation is very likly. But that there has been 4 Natural in this generation is likly just the plot device and a "rare chance happending" and that Rubel arranged for them to meet and hopefully die just a chance of luck.

[KillerYomaFromSpace]

Again i dont think the normal ppl are part of the Org concerns... they are just the motivation for Claymores to fight... nothing more. I dont think they are even considered humans and they woudnt hesitate to wipe a town or two if there is a need.

About my question... humans have been fighting agaist the dragon race for a while before having AB's.... and since normal Claymores are not enough to fight the Dragon guys i thought that somehow the humans in the outside world got to be as strong or even stronger than normal Claymores...


they were losing the war until they made the ABs, I don't discuss that they may have other weapons that can slow down the enemy advance, like armors and projectiles made of the same material as the claymore swords, but, humans stronger than claymores? I really doubt that, it wouldn't fit in the story at all

[dunames]

HUMAN CAN BE INFINITELY STRONGER THEN THE STRONGEST CLAYMORE TO DATE.

how many claymore can make Loli Prisy dance in the palm of their hand like little weakly human Raki.

[iLney]

Oh rite. They collected "tax" to make things look normal.... But some Org from nowhere is too much an issue for such evasive tatic. Of course, collecting fees would reduce the suspision but if they started to enforce cut-throat fee and told the people "pay or die", it would be counter productive. Even if those people didn't know about the war, it would be natural to think that the Org created yoma to make money. Furthermore, if it were really just for show, why didn't they just let their claymores collect the payment then returning to whoever in charge of the mission? All suggested that the MiBs were dead serious about the money issue. Maybe their HQ didn't know about this business but I believed they did need money for something.

One more thing, after some thought, I believed the Org did really need to earn some trust and respect from the people. Overall, all the warriors sent to the main land were from this continent who let the Org turn them into monsters to protect other human from yoma and seek revenge; they didn't do that to go to war. Imagine the Org sending Teresa to the main land, chance of her willing to fight anything is rather slim. At least, the Org must make themselves look like the good guys.

[mosmos]

Justa recap on the no. of times of half awakenings the fab 4 have.

1. Clare - 4 times (or less ?)
2. Deneve - Twice
3. Miria - Once
4. What's her name - Once
(Sudden Mind Block)

The more times a claymore half awakens = the stronger she becomes.

Thus the strongest 2 are Clare and Deneve (from the comments of Miata) ?

[Double_friedman]

Justa recap on the no. of times of half awakenings the fab 4 have.

1. Clare - 4 times (or less ?)
2. Deneve - Twice
3. Miria - Once
4. What's her name - Once
(Sudden Mind Block)

The more times a claymore half awakens = the stronger she becomes.

Thus the strongest 2 are Clare and Deneve (from the comments of Miata) ?

Jajajaja, what's her name is: Helen.
And the strongest from the comments of Miata are Miria and Claire

[Gangsta Spanksta]

The Org was trying to befriend the citizens of the continent, they even tried to elimiate Teresa to ensure that kind of relationship, just because she killed some bandits. Now if financial is just a tiny problem, they don't need to apply such cut-throat fees to those poor villages because it would be very counter-productive.
And since the theme is medieval age, the villagers pays in GOLD, not the toilet papers all of us using today. The economy seems alrite for me. Only the North suffered from population losses thx to Isley and his men, still a slave trade route prospered.

I think the concept of the Org trying to befriend the citizens of the continent absurd. They kidnap their children. The price to kill a yoma is very high; it could be all the gold a village has sometimes -- depending on how pathetic. Now if a poor village is unfortunate enough to call the org to kill a yoma, but ends up having seven yomas, it could be impossible to payoff the org. A village that doesn't pay is as good as dead, no excuses. As for Teresa, again, it's a control thing. She broke the rules, there are no exceptions. That's probably because Teresa -- powerful as she maybe -- is just an experiment, not a soldier on the real battle field.

Someone once said it here and I agree; The Island is sort of like the Matrix, everyone is living a lie except the suits and the resistance.

[mosmos]

Jajajaja, what's her name is: Helen.
And the strongest from the comments of Miata are Miria and Claire

Oh.. yeah.. thanks

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Oh rite. They collected "tax" to make things look normal.... But some Org from nowhere is too much an issue for such evasive tatic. Of course, collecting fees would reduce the suspision but if they started to enforce cut-throat fee and told the people "pay or die", it would be counter productive.

You mean they don't enforce cut-throat fees, and Teresa didn't do the pay or die spiel?

Even if those people didn't know about the war, it would be natural to think that the Org created yoma to make money.

It is very likely that some people believe that. Teresa at least believed the first part. But what the people think is irrelevent, they either "pay or die." The people are just there to feed the yoma and Awakened Beings. In fact it is this whole "pay or die" attitude that has people distrusting the org. Claymore, are feared and hated, called names, and treated badly by the villagers. We see that early on with Clare. When the whole "pay or die" thing disappears, in the Teresa arc, she is treated as a hero for the first time in her life, as people cheer.

Furthermore, if it were really just for show, why didn't they just let their claymores collect the payment then returning to whoever in charge of the mission?

Because, it is a control thing.


One more thing, after some thought, I believed the Org did really need to earn some trust and respect from the people. Overall, all the warriors sent to the main land were from this continent who let the Org turn them into monsters to protect other human from yoma and seek revenge; they didn't do that to go to war. Imagine the Org sending Teresa to the main land, chance of her willing to fight anything is rather slim. At least, the Org must make themselves look like the good guys.

Where did you get that from? From what we've seen so far, all evidence tends to point to the Claymores on the main continent coming from the main continent, and these warriors tend to be male. Right now, the org is sending people who can't control/stop their awakenings to fight so that they'll get overly excited an change into a monster at the front lines where the Dragons are. A female is not ideal for this kind of situation, because she would have more control than the male. Of course, all of that would change once the org has control over the ABs. See a pattern here? :D

[Droplet]

@Sordes Pilus

Hey, this is quite an effort and very informative for anybody who will have just begun reading Claymore. You could include the objective information into a Claymore wiki (i.e. Awakening Types), because it seems to be an issue that everyone can agree on (unless someone disputes). And omit the more debatable topics. :)

@Stream: thanks. it's ok now.

[Stream]

Y'know Droplet, I really believe this page of the thread would be better off if you edited out that massive quote and just wrote "Sordes Pilosus," instead. :-/

[speedy3020]

Justa recap on the no. of times of half awakenings the fab 4 have.

1. Clare - 4 times (or less ?)
2. Deneve - Twice
3. Miria - Once
4. What's her name - Once
(Sudden Mind Block)

The more times a claymore half awakens = the stronger she becomes.

Thus the strongest 2 are Clare and Deneve (from the comments of Miata) ?

I think Deneve is at 3.
Once before slashers
Once again at slashers
And the 3rd at Pieta.

[iLney]

@Ilney: thanks. it's ok now.
Did I do something nice? :D

@Gangsta Spanksta: I don't know where you get the kinapping stuffs from, and the price to kill a yoma for the Org is next to nothing. But all you did was to point out that the Org was dead serious about the money issue. Otherwise, they didn't even need to collect them or impose the no-man slaughtering on those whose initial purpose was to kill humans on the mainland anyway.


From what we've seen so far, all evidence tends to point to the Claymores on the main continent coming from the main continent, and these warriors tend to be male.

"Your ... eyes can see what others cannot" :(. Would you please share with us where did you get that from?

Right now, the org is sending people who can't control/stop their awakenings to fight so that they'll get overly excited an change into a monster at the front lines where the Dragons are.

The problem is they can go either way :rolleyes:

[Droplet]

@Ilney

woops, sorry, i made a mistake, i was supposed to put 'Stream" lol.

[evil_kenshin]

"Your ... eyes can see what others cannot" :(. Would you please share with us where did you get that from?

I think his/she's refering to when Miria is talking about the mainlands war it shows warriors (claymore carrying warriors) who are male fighting on the mainland with a few awakened.

This could mean indeed over on the mainland the org doesn't care as much and has males go into battle on a suicide run constantly. There could even be a few males who don't awaken so easily as well.

The laboratory is where the organization is trying to avoid awakened beings so to speak, but in a massive war they wouldn't care.

Surely it would make more sense to have two laboratories else it would be to much trouble shipping between the two islands all these warriors.

[Sordes Pilosus]

The reason i made the post is because the argument of halfawakening must be seen in the context of how awakening normaly happends and how it normaly affects the circumstances of Claymore's. Its better to have some common ground to base the debates on aswell. In regards to updating it in a Claymore Wiki format, might be possible. But where to place it and what else to update and fix it up with aint my strongest points. I do however think ive represented a rather accurate view of awakening and its process's in response to what the manga has showed us so far. New information is however likly to change that above, but for now as of chapter 83, i belive it stands rather firmly.

[iLney]

I think his/she's refering to when Miria is talking about the mainlands war it shows warriors (claymore carrying warriors) who are male fighting on the mainland with a few awakened.

Ah, but the AB on the next page looks feminine to me.
Anyway, that only the first stage of the war when the Org was still experimenting on males warriors, which failed. Besides, that did not indicate those males were from the mainland. For now, the future laid on the hand of women :D And as I said before, I don't think those girls will agree to fight unless they are treated nicely or believe that the Org is the good side.


Normal Awakening: Most awaken really against their will, they push past their limit and use as much as they can to surpress and fight it even if they know its "impossible" leading to more restricted awakened beings. Its likly that Rigaldo, Agatha, Duph and most others belong under this grouping of awakening. This results in the normal awakened, sure alot stronger then what they where as a Claymore, but nothing to what they "could have" becomme.

uhm.. you cannot group male and female claymore under a same category. The case of Agatha could be true. But Rigaldo and Duph most likely didn't even try to suppress themselves and went straight to the top, overall it was too much a temptation for them.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

@Gangsta Spanksta: I don't know where you get the kinapping stuffs from, and the price to kill a yoma for the Org is next to nothing. But all you did was to point out that the Org was dead serious about the money issue. Otherwise, they didn't even need to collect them or impose the no-man slaughtering on those whose initial purpose was to kill humans on the mainland anyway.

Well lets look at some things we know as facts. Clare is the only Warrior who has ever volunteered for service. That means that all other Warriors were either taken forcibly or sold by their parents to the org. When Rubel and Raphaela sneak up on Clare and Jean, and he tells her about Raki being sold off into slavery, she gets mad at him. at which point, he says something like "come on now, you should know I had nothing to do with it. It is a common known fact that orphaned children if male end up in the north [Slave Trade] and if female in the east [The Org] Now granted that these are orphans we are talking about in his quote, but if you don't consider that kidnapping just because the child is orphaned, then you got some messed up bigot view. ;)

Now though, there is one place in the story I *think* it said that the org has taken children forcibly from their parents. Can anybody verify if you know where? I Think it was the Alicia and Beth case, because they were rare twins. But either way, ;) I think I've shown the org at least kidnaps orphans. They were forcibly going to take Clare at one point. Which was why Teresa asked what they were going to do with her. I believe, if they would've said that they weren't going to turn her into a Claymore, and find a family to adopt her that Teresa would've accepted her punishment.


"Your ... eyes can see what others cannot" :(. Would you please share with us where did you get that from?

The scene that shows the war on the mainland. ;) The warrior is clearly male, which means that he probably isn't from the island. We do know that the org relies on forced awakenings at the front lines to counter the Dragons. We do not know if the org can force awaken females in battle. The males, all you have to do is put them in battle, and they'll awaken when they get overly excited, kinda like the hulk :d

The problem is they can go either way :rolleyes:

Though the meaning of the last part is quite ambiguous, if you mean what I think you mean, then that's why they're trying to control awakened beings. Having no control, at the moment, means that they have to take risks.

[Sordes Pilosus]

Ilney, you can very much so group Male and Females together. The Org even said so themselves in a way. The males where a huge sucess with the only flaw they awakened to easily. The general thing that seperated males from females are the general ability to surpress instincts. Males in general are more likly to resort to agression etc then a female is, so adding 2 "agressive" natures ontop of each other created an unballance that made the "training period to long considering the rate of awakening" There is no real differance however in Females and Males when it comes to awakening as a whole, they undergo the same process's, their strenghts are comparable with each other and there is nothing to indicate that Males and Female Claymore's had any differance except male being far more vulnerable to awakening. And your overstating it a bit. While its true the likes of Rigaldo and Duph are very strong compared to the average claymore. Their more likly the same as Rosemary, a very strong claymore that awakens with restrictions. It produces an Awakened Being of strong power but its not a fully willing awakening. So no I belive its safe to group them together AND in the Category they are listed. Everything indicates this that has been presented and if we generaly look at their power levels.

[iLney]

k

The other girls were orphans whose parents were killed by AB or yomas; thus, revenge. Besides, East west north or south, there were always people. And people are greedy. If they thought they could make $$ they could do anything. If you thought people in the East = the Org, the I don't know what to say.

The Org didn't really take those forcefully. They came and asked for the twins which showed that they talked to the citizens, which also meant they might try to make the parents believe they were using their children for the greater good. Else, they would just ninja the twin, noone would have known anyway.

About the warriors, see the previous post.

That risk is too much to take, which is why they stopped using male, female is the way to go. You don't throw an army in a battle w/o even a tiny idea what is gonna happen and what you're gonna achieve. If you want the male claymores to suicide, fine, just send only them, not with your men. If you send thousands of your men to capture something or to establish a strategic position, that risk is unacceptable. Of course, you can say incompetent commanders do. But if the Org's side are full of those, how can you expect them to hold off the other side who has clear advantage.

@Sordes Pilosus: from the story, females when they came close to awakening, they tried their best to suppress while their limit permitted. The males on the other hand surrendered almost immediately to the pleasure of awakening; there was hardly any resistance, which could lead to the assumption that the males did it by choice. But if you only interest in the "yoki" level (I don't use "power"), then it would be fine.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

The other girls were orphans whose parents were killed by AB or yomas; thus, revenge. Besides, East west north or south, there were always people. And people are greedy. If they thought they could make $$ they could do anything. If you thought people in the East = the Org, the I don't know what to say.

Then why does it appear that so many Claymores have a bone to pick with the Org about them being forced to be Claymores

"I always thought my best feature was my long black hair. But the people I trusted sold me to the organization, and on that day I lost everything. To die as a beggar or become a tool of the organization... I didn't have much choice. It wasn't just me, either. It was like that for everyone who joined. No one ever willingly comes knocking on the organization's door. My body was cut open, too. I ceased to be human and became something else. In that moment, my cherished black hair, my black eyes -- al of the color... Drained from my body, leaving only these shining silver eyes." -- Teresa of the Faint Smile.

Where's the part about Revenge there? The whole revenge thing could depend on personality. In fact, to me, it seems like Offensive Claymores are much more likely to seek Revenge than Defensive Claymores.

Now let me put a scenario in front of you. Clare was happy to be with Teresa -- to live her life out as human with Teresa as her mother. Do you think at that point of time that Clare sought revenge against yoma? Had she moved on with her life once she met Teresa? Now when the Org came to kill Teresa, and Clare was being forcibly held by an MiB, and Teresa asked them what their plans were for Clare, Do you think that they were just going to let her go? Did Clare at that point seek revenge against yoma? Do you think that they were going to make her a candidate for Claymore, even if she didn't want to? Was Teresa willing to die if they would've let Clare live to be human?


That risk is too much to take, which is why they stopped using male, female is the way to go.


they stopped using males on the island. Female is they way to go in the experiment. But for the war they seem to need Awakened Beings. A Claymore wants to die as a human. They would rather die than turn into a monster. The org would have all kinds of potential problems if they took female warriors of the island and then asked them to turn into awakened beings. No, it is much easier to send an unsuspecting male soldier into battle and have him turn into a monster without him knowing he will. It says that usually the Male Awakened Beings, will fight the DoDs until it is killed. On rare occasions the Males do turn on their own troops near the front lines, or one actually survives after killing all the enemies, and then turns on its own side. As for the stuff you say about only sending the soldier that will turn into an AB at the enemies there are a few problems with it. Think of the scenario as a kamikaze attack, where the pilot is unaware that he is the kamikaze pilot. First off, you don't give the enemy a single target to shoot at; that would just be stupid. Secondly, you don't tell the soldier what he is; Claymores don't like turning into monsters; that has been established. Also when playing chess one sacrifices some pawns -- frontline troops -- if the result has heavier casualties on the opponent side. Human, Claymore, lives mean nothing to the org as long as it is for the greater good. It is pure Utilitarianism. And yes, ultimately the org does want to use female -- controllable -- ABs in battle. But until they are able to control the thing, the current kamikaze methoid is much more effective than having potential female Claymore rebel upon hearing that they are to give up their humanity.

[Sleepy Speculator]

Hmm i think you guys are arguing pretty much about the same thing, but from different angles, i'll try and put my spin on it. The male claymores were a resounding success from the point of view of the org *because* they awakened, that is they had the yoki energy release and could become monsters capable of fighting the Dods.

However the downside of this release was the loss of humanity and control, they effectively went rogue despite being previously disciplined soldiers, or rather not despite but because.

By using already trained and disciplined male soldiers the org was effectively screening their samples already and ended up with an overwhelming number of offensive claymores. To remedy this situation and because of a need for control it was switched to making claymores from girls. Now the difference between the male and the female claymore was the feeling of pain rather than ecstasy, as they approached their limit.

And i theorise this is also shown mentally as well as biologically in a predisposition for defensive type claymores, since all the claymores (female) who have awakened so far have been shown to be offensive types. As for the partially awakened look at what they say...

Clare - feels a rush of suffering and ecstasy
Helen - said for her it was the same but she got carried away just like the guys... :) you've gotta know what Helens character is like by now right?
Miria - was beserk but can be seen making all sort of noises...
Deneve - has been pretty tight lipped about it and unconscious when the others were asked

So the org solves one problem but creates another... the difficulty that remains is getting the defensive types to awake, since they maintain the best control so far...

[Wiggle wyrm]

While using Claymores as kamikazes does have advantages as far as winning a few battles is concerned, it also has huge drawbacks. With it, the best possible scenario would be the ABs doing enough damage to the DoDs for the Org’s side to win. Less favorable scenarios would involve the ABs being defeated before they can do much damage, the AB’s ignoring the DoD and running off, or heaven forbid, the AB’s winning the battle and turning on their now defenseless comrades.

Right now I’d imagine the mainland is a devastated wasteland, ravaged from a hundred years of war and overrun with uncontrollable monsters.

[Torri_fay_torren@hot]

Then why does it appear that so many Claymores have a bone to pick with the Org about them being forced to be Claymores

.

Here is my take on it. I think that a lot of the younger Claymores that we have seen are loyal to the Org. Priscilla, Clarice, and even Miata(though she is a bad example) follows the no killing humans rule. I imagene that some of them are greatful for the org. because the Org took them in when there cast out. Also, the Org gives them the chance to hunt yoma. Some of them in this position might think the Org's the good guys or at least nessasary ( Even Galatea was against Miria's plan at first because who was going to get rid of the Yoma.)

Then there are Claymore that aren't really old but are more expirenced then the first group. These people tend to come somewere inbetween the first group and second. A lot of them are indifferent to the org. I think Helen and Deneva fit this group inching to the third group a little post Pieta

Then as they get older they becaum more aware of how the Org really works. The Org doesen't care about the people. The Claymores them selves are just tools that have been given a death sentence of becauming yoma or dieing. The Org's not the good guys. It's obey or die. And then they becaume cynical and more suspicious. Galatea is a good example of this. Thats why they should die early. Teresa's talk with Piscilla helped me a lot to develop this theory. "Forgive me for saying so but the reall world doesn't work that way Young Lady"

Of course not all of them like the org. at first either. I think this goes for people who don't see the Org as savior's in any shape or form. Or else they don't want to fight yoma or have seen some of there fellow Claymore die horrible. (People like Teresa)

I tend to think most Claymores fall under the first and second catigory.
But now we have a slight problem. This new generation is full of young Claymores. I would like to see how Miria wins them over.

[iLney]

Still, the Org didn't directly kidnap anyone. The thing that put those girls into the Org's hand was human's greed. I'm sorry to put it this way but slavestrading is a business, people are happy as long as you provide them with business they can make profit. Of course, it would bring bad reputation to the Org but still not to the point of boiling hatred. On the other hand, history shows us that if a regime starts taking too much money out of the people's pockets, s*** will happen.


Then why does it appear that so many Claymores have a bone to pick with the Org about them being forced to be Claymores

Then why would every claymore that complains none of them quit? The fear of death? They know they would die anyway. The Org forces the claymores into their hands, how to use them is up to those girls. The point is for each<survived> claymores who is wandering around the continent, I believe everyone of them has a reason pertaining to human & yoma & AB to do so. Why woudn't Teresa betray the Org if she didn't believe the Org was one the "shady" side instead of dark? Why would Galatea not leave the Org sooner to take care of those children? She only left after being fed up with the Org disgusting actions. When faced Miria who planned to take down the Org, Galatea still worried about human's fate if the Org was gone; and right after that, the G7 members start to have doubt in Miria's intention which led to Miria exposing everything.


Clare stuff

To put it rudely, she would cry all day long and start cursing the Org like never before; then when the final test came, she would be done with. The end.


they stopped using males <may I put "only" here?> on the island....

That is a HUGE assumption.

No, it is much easier to send an unsuspecting male soldier into battle and have him turn into a monster without him knowing he will.

Then why bother experimenting? According to you, they would use males anyway.
How rare is rare to you? 50/50? An AB wants to eat most, it will seek the easiest food source. Now if you are one, which way you would go? One way is full of human, the other is full of not-so-delicous DoDs. Again, if they can reason with those things, they wouldn't need the Org anyway. The other side is not stupid either, they would just provoke the male claymore, make him awaken, then run. How to know which one is a claymore? Easy, the one with a unsual big sword and seperated from the rest of the soldiers (who wants to be near a thing that can eat you in any second).


Think of the scenario as a kamikaze attack, where the pilot is unaware that he is the kamikaze pilot. First off, you don't give the enemy a single target to shoot at; that would just be stupid. Secondly, you don't tell the soldier what he is;

That only works for a couple of time in urgent situations. People are not as stupid as you think and words spread fast. The Japanese did an excellent job brainwashing their men in WWII, which gave the tatic the name "kamikaze" (divine wind). W/o the the brainwashing process, there isn't kamikaze for you, only "suicide attack." And every army has men who accepts to do that. But to scale it into the Japanese level, it takes much more.
Besides, given that the males AB regain some consicousness after the inital gutsthirst, after realizing they were tricked. What would they do? Happily charging into the DoDs side? Nah, not gonna happen.

It is pure Utilitarianism. And yes, ultimately the org does want to use female -- controllable -- ABs in battle.

Now we agree on something. But you think the best way to convince those utilitarians to fight for them is to treat the citizens on the continent, their people, like trash?

[Sordes Pilosus]

Again, read my post regarding awakening in the prior page. When they awaken they dont change personality. If their dead set on killing DoD's before they awaken, they will generaly fight the DoD's before turning on their own. The only thing that happends is that ones personality gets "twisted". This makes the make great kamikaze soldier's. But the problem is they shouldent "win" just dammage alot, die and the other side will likly retreat "incase a second AB should gets orders to attack". The problem is when they win and notice their hungry.

As for the Male vs Female bit with Ilney:
Wrong. Your again overstating it. Males "Tend" to do what you said. That means they enjoy the feeling but stil their minds will go "Dont want to awaken". Its like human instinct, when something comes vs your head your hands will instantly go up to protect it. Humans are quite spesial as a species because we got "2 sets" of Actions in terms of movement. "Automatic" movment and "Commanded" movement. Like the hand goes up automaticly or we place it there knowingly. This is the main differance. Also look at Human instinct differances between males and females. Males are more agressive, territorial and "does as one pleases" more. Ofcourse the mainstream of that kind of personality is far more vulnerable to awakening, when the male instincts are "not that different from youma". Females on the other hand tend to value life more, be calmer, gentler etc. And its a nature thats in "conflict" with the youma, meaning its a fight going on there between instincts that makes Females less likly to go over their limit. But just like there is Helen who felt the same way "most" males did, the mainstream of females will find it unpleasant. So when males awaken, they will stil "automaticly" resisit to a large degree, except for those rare cases where emotions alter our instincts, like Rage. That can lead to willing awakening etc.

[irvinethearcher]

It has nothing to do with valuation of life or kindness or such things.
The important factor is the sex drive of men and women. Men have a sex drive 10 times as strong as women and awakening is connected with sexual pleasure.

[iLney]

@Sordes Pilosus:
The "don't want to awaken" part disappears right after the males feel the pleasure. I don't call that resistance of any kind. The females on the other hand feel it and resisit it until their minds are completely taken by the beasts within them. That is the major difference. Remember Jean's case, even when she was at 100% her human mind survived and still fought to the end. In other words, the males only keep the "don't want to awaken" until they know what it means to awaken; the females don't want to awaken and still insist on that even when they know how awakening feel.

Let's try this broken metaphor. If a boy is taught sex is bad, I bet an average boy will only keep that in mind until a girl he likes makes a move, and then "wth, who cares, whoever told me sex is bad must be an idiot...." Now, I don't know about girl, but well, it won't go that way :heh:

[Ancient Soul]

THE NEUTRAL ZONE (aka The Mess) THEORY :

Maybe the notion of a "neutral zone" between the two sides can explain a few things.

If there is a ZONE where hundreds if not thousands of AB\AO\renegade claymores\renegade DODs are lurking that would explain why the war is still going on after a century.In fact is now a cold war.

This ZONE can explain (at least partially\in my opinion\making assumptions) :

1.Why The DOD's side didn't win the war :
They have to few valuable DODs in order to clean the ZONE and attack.

2.Why The ORG's side didn't win the war :
They will still throw "unfinished claymores" and will just add to the mess and rather than advancing most likely would just add to the zone losing more ground.And even if they pass thru they will be vulnerable at an enemy counterattack.

NOTE : Like the AB in the north or Isley already proved there is a chance of grouping and an attack from either side would create a third force of "monsters".This can be another motive why the two side would not attack thru The Zone and why the war may become a cold one.

3.Why The ORG don't hurry at all (or at least don't seem to be in a hurry) :
They know that the OE is not strong enough to pass thru the zone and attack them.Or they are but that would be a usless victory since they will throw another wave of "unfinished claymores" and just recreate a new zone.So they feel like they act with impunity for the time being in their part of the world.

4.Why The ORG want over-powered controllable AB (and not to many at all) :
They need a "tank" to penetrate thru the zone creating a breach for their forces.

5.Why Alicia is not good enough to be used on mainland:
She is an "unfinished controllable AB" beacuse of her weakness Beth.Is just to risky to use her.If she awaken...another "monster".Bad move.

5.Why The ORG want claymores who don't awaken very easy :
After the breach would be done by the "tank\thanks" they can use regular "finished claymores" in order to win the war.

6.Why the OE didn't attack the island :
The island is like The Zone.Filled with "monsters".Is more cheap to infiltrate a spy and have access to enemy experiments rather than attack.Also Isley and Riful "just happened" as soon The ORG was established.All the AB are a "cheap garisoon" for the ORG.And also good for testing new claymores abilities.

7.Why Rubel want "implosion" rather than outside destruction for The ORG :
If the exeriments backfire the higher-ups on the mainland may cease to support The ORG because they would think that since after a century rather than progress all ended in failure is usless to countinue the experiments and may even ask for peace (because they don't have any other plan in order to win the war).If there is "outside attack" The ORG side may think that was sabotage and just relocate in order to make new experiments.

NOTE : There is the possibility that the OE have their own research facilities.If they shut-down the enemy research sooner or later they will gain ground and sooner or later would attack again.Maybe they started later their own experiments and now need time since The ORG is rather advanced.

NOTE : By this theory The ORG and ORG SIDE need :

1. An over-powered controllable AB.Or just a few.
2. Claymores who don't awaken easy or if they awaken they can turn back.

1. With Alicia they are close but not close enough.
2. With half-awakeneds they very close to their goal.

I don't think they want\need to many uber AB.
Alicia took 20-30 to reach AO level.To slow in a war.
Also Alicia seem that she was created more to protect The ORG from "accidents" rather than a true wepon to be used in the war.

[Sordes Pilosus]

Irvine, Ilney both of you just stop, and start rereading the manga. Your basing your replies on shallow and uncomplete facts. If you read my post on the prior page you will find out about 95% of all the manga has stated about awakening. But ill restate about the males:

The only and i repeat the ONLY problem with the Male Generation Claymore's, was that they where to vulnerable to awakening. You both claim its because of their sexdrive BEEEP wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. It was because the impulse to awaken was to strong because it made them feel a feeling very simular to ecstacy and the "desire" for more kicks in. This is very simular to the sexualdrive but dont get confused by it, its different. If you want a rought differative its like Onating and actualy having sex, both makes you feel good due to simular effects on the body but you cant really compare the two anyway. Awakening is like a third one, but just like with sex even if feeling good, and one start to forget things, something as mentaly "scaring" as awakening. Remember here, the Claymore's dont go around wanting to awaken, they dread it, hate it and will fight and kill anyone who does it if they have a chance to. And with the human species huge ability to surpress desires, the scenario would go something like this:

They tap into their youki and its % Increase, once it reaches roughly 50% it starts feeling quite good (own number used as an example), their "limit" starts becomming cloudy now because as they fight they also start feeling a little more good, simular to sexdrive but its actualy based on the male instincts which i have already pointed out. Did either of you actualy read my posts ? When however they reach 80% the "Critital Limit" most will realise they have gone to far, and try to surpress it. Its like shoting your load into a woman you will go "Shit" if it wasent intended. And they will start to fight the awakening process to late and they awaken. Their "self deffence" to avoid awakening kicks in AFTER they realise they have broken past their limit and cant return but tries to anyway but fails. This process limits them and they becomme "normal AB's". Is this really hard to understand ? You make it sound like they forget all about actualy awakening.. like that actualy happends.. its really to foolish to belive considering Human Nature and general Instincts.

[iLney]

Thank you I read them very carefully. I used outside stuffs to explain ambiguous obversations I had within the story. You ,on the other hand, tried to find stuffs within the story to explain the obvious parts then... expanded them in a way...


Remember here, the Claymore's dont go around wanting to awaken, they dread it, hate it and will fight and kill anyone who does it if they have a chance to. And with the human species huge ability to surpress desires
Well, I never said that the males wanted to awaken in the first place. Of course, they didn't become Claymores to awaken. The thing is both fresh male/female Claymores wouldn't have a slightest idea what awakening is like. As you put it, they dread it and hate it. BUT while the female first experience the taste of awakening, they have the power to resist it to some point. On the contrary, the male offer little to no resistence when they experience the sensation of awakening the first time in their lives. When a desire overpowers one's mind with such ease, I call it a voluntary act. What you call it is up to you.


Their "self deffence" to avoid awakening kicks in AFTER they realise they have broken past their limit and cant return but tries to anyway but fails

I personally think that your number 50% and 80% are way too extreme very much high for a male claymore.
The problem with the above statement is that who was the "they" you were refering to? the man or the beast? For I'm pretty positive that the instance one becomes an AB (except in some rare FEMALE cases), the former is dead. For such, I read your statement as "....after the AB realise he passes his limit (what limit?) and cant return (to where?)..."

@Ancient Soul: I just have one problem with the ZONE.... if neither side can be a threat or reach each other due to its existence while communication means is kinda non-existence in such condition, why would they play "war" for more than 100 years? Buiding up army, developing technology, gathering intelligence ect... ,all of which require a considerable amount of effort, to combat an enemy you can reach or see in 100 years? Not evert child is interested in his/her great grandpa's fairy tale.It just doesn't feel right...

[Sordes Pilosus]

Your correct almost that fresh Claymore's male or female wouldent know what it felt like. The Correct is "They wouldent have experienced how it felt like" But they would very likly be told. And you say 80% their a AB already, have you really read the manga ? Thats the point of no return in general sense. Its whats described as going over the limit, limit aint refered to the manga as "WHEN THEIR AN AB" its the point where their no longer able to stop the awakening process. Its at THAT time they ask nearby etc IF possible to take their heads. In my post however i was refering to the male generation, humans aint beasts or normal animals, we dont act ONLY on instinct, we think quite heavily almost all the time and it affects us greatly. So when the males generaly notice their past their limit the large majority will "Shit" just like if you acidently shot your load into a woman just before her period, a very bad thing to do if you dont want to get her pregnant, basicly they realise to late that they have gone over their limit. Basicly they aint able to figure out mostly where their limit is. Thats why i used 50% which i would estimate since its alot of body vains etc showing at that point as the "highest" a male go saftly go but staying there is hard going higher the ecstacy makes them fumble closer and closer to their limit. The manga does not state that Male awaken right away, if you belive that youve read the manga wrong. The manga states that males awaken to easily, that means say a Female Claymore on average awaken or die within a 5 to 10 year period at the "latest"(rare exceptions). While a male would awaken on average between 6months and 2 years tops. And if they took about 6 years to train or so, its awfully wastefull. And because most of the males dont die, but awaken instead it creates quite the problem. Its that kind of problem the males had, and the reason for that is when they pushed their youki higher then "normal use" they start drawing more and more and they dont do it because they WANT TO awaken, no they do it because it feels good, but once they reach the critical point, things start to drasticly change with their bodies and they realise try to fight it sure its been all good and willing up to this point. But that doesent matter "Its the period during awakening" thats important, just like the state of mind during Claymore creation determins if they becomme offensive or deffensive.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Then why bother experimenting? According to you, they would use males anyway.
How rare is rare to you? 50/50? An AB wants to eat most, it will seek the easiest food source. Now if you are one, which way you would go? One way is full of human, the other is full of not-so-delicous DoDs. Again, if they can reason with those things, they wouldn't need the Org anyway. The other side is not stupid either, they would just provoke the male claymore, make him awaken, then run. How to know which one is a claymore? Easy, the one with a unsual big sword and seperated from the rest of the soldiers (who wants to be near a thing that can eat you in any second).


When you write that, you completely ignore that I said that they plan to use female soldiers, eventually. Yes, the kamikaze method they use now has huge drawbacks. The females who have more control when it comes to stopping themselves from awakening also have huge drawbacks. What are you asking someone when you ask them to become an awaken being? You're asking them to become a demon, likely without much of moral values. The problem with awakening is that it changes the mind. The females will not be ready until, you either take their free will away, or you make it so that they retain their human minds while they awaken, and can shift back to claymore. We've seen a lot of seens of Claymores asking for their head to be taken, because they are about to lose their humanity. If you start asking the female soldiers to awaken on purpose, then this is where your drawbacks come in. Instead of having an AB awaken on battle field, you might be faced with a monster attacking you right off instead of the enemy. So until the females are ready, it is less risky to use the males.

That only works for a couple of time in urgent situations. People are not as stupid as you think and words spread fast. The Japanese did an excellent job brainwashing their men in WWII, which gave the tatic the name "kamikaze" (divine wind). W/o the the brainwashing process, there isn't kamikaze for you, only "suicide attack." And every army has men who accepts to do that. But to scale it into the Japanese level, it takes much more.
Besides, given that the males AB regain some consicousness after the inital gutsthirst, after realizing they were tricked. What would they do? Happily charging into the DoDs side? Nah, not gonna happen.

So instead, you think that asking someone to damn themselves by turning into a demon for the sake of the org will gain you loyalty? We know this world has religion and goddesses. Would it be logical to assume that demons are viewed in a positive light? The Claymores would rather die than turn into an Awakened One.

Now we agree on something. But you think the best way to convince those utilitarians to fight for them is to treat the citizens on the continent, their people, like trash?

We know nothing about how people are treated on the main continent. But I see the org treating people like trash on the island.

[evil_kenshin]

When you write that, you completely ignore that I said that they plan to use female soldiers, eventually. Yes, the kamikaze method they use now has huge drawbacks. The females who have more control when it comes to stopping themselves from awakening also have huge drawbacks. What are you asking someone when you ask them to become an awaken being? You're asking them to become a demon, likely without much of moral values. The problem with awakening is that it changes the mind. The females will not be ready until, you either take their free will away, or you make it so that they retain their human minds while they awaken, and can shift back to claymore. We've seen a lot of seens of Claymores asking for their head to be taken, because they are about to lose their humanity. If you start asking the female soldiers to awaken on purpose, then this is where your drawbacks come in. Instead of having an AB awaken on battle field, you might be faced with a monster attacking you right off instead of the enemy. So until the females are ready, it is less risky to use the males.

While true theres bound to be the odd few males who don't awaken,judging by comments from Isley, Rigardo, Duph and even that male AB who talked alot who confronted Duph and Riful when Isley split his troops made it seem like they were claymores for quiet awhile.

Despite the way Miria said it, I think theres more evidence to suggest males arn't as prone to awakening as she thinks.

The major evidence is that all males seen are adult sized and fully mature, yet the yoki flesh is put in when they are 4-6 years old; Thats 16 years atleast as a Claymore where they didn't suddenly awaken. I would believe it is the case if all male AB's human forms were Riful sized but none look like they are younger than 18.

Anyway male/female it will make no difference who they send onto the field.

[Wiggle wyrm]

I like your Neutral Zone theory Ancient Soul. It would go a long way to explaining how the war has dragged on for so long, and how both sides seem content to patiently plot against each other. Unless either side can make a breakthrough, all they can hope for is a pyrrhic victory.

No offence Sordes Pilosus, but you need to shorten or divide your posts. When they get too long, they tend to become a wall text.

[Ancient Soul]

@iLney

"Not evert child is interested in his/her great grandpa's fairy tale.It just doesn't feel right..."

You forgot that :

The MiBs (and Rubel), claymores, AB, maybe even youmas, maybe even DODs seem to gain\gained IMMORTALITY.

I think that the easiest explanation for why the war has dragged on for so long would be that both factions are ruled by IMMORTALAS who HATE each other.Also if this IMMORTALS can't have children there will be status quo on all levels of power.So little changes in their vision over the years.Thir view over the world is not the same as of mortal people.But their passions will still be there.

Take Miria's hate towards The ORG.Seven years "without contact" only fueled her desire for vengeance.

Take The MiBs for the best example in the manga.
Why they still make experiments after a century?What drive them?

They can make like Galatea.Find a quiet place to live but they don't.
Most likely by now their only purpose in life is to win no matter what.

Simple people will jus die.If they have a rebellion (on both sides) will be crushed either by claymores either by DODs.I don't think such states can be ruled by mortals while under them are countless immortals.Unless they act like puppets and the people don't know that there immortals at all (sound absurd for me).

Also we are (it seem) in medieval ages.Any dissent will be crushed by force.
Take The ORG doctrine about traitors : all of them must die.

[iLney]

When you write that, you completely ignore that I said that they plan to use female soldiers, eventuall ... So until the females are ready, it is less risky to use the males.

I don't really know where you're getting at when you write this:confused: All I can say is that no one can bee success with your version of kamikaze for 100+ years. I say it works for 1 year with the best possible cover-up. And where did I mention anything about using females in the same maner as males? And the last sentence.., whut? For me, until the females are ready: a) don't use anything and start focusing on defence b) choose some zealot among the warriors and send them to the mainland.

For b, we don't know. There is so little information regarding the generations of the Org. Where did all the other #1 go? Until then, true until proven false :D


So instead, you think that asking someone to damn themselves by turning into a demon for the sake of the org will gain you loyalty?

What are you getting at? My point is simple: they didn't use anything at all. As I pointed out, the risk outdos the benefits. The first few males when sent into the battle field didn't know the ease by which they could be turned into a monster. But people learn fast.

We know nothing about how people are treated on the main continent. But I see the org treating people like trash on the island.
As far as we knew, the Org only used the local folks. And they must have to somehow please them or make them believe they're the good guys. If a cow gives better and more profitable misk when listening to music, give it a song. It's not for the development of the bovine's culture, it's for their milk.

Now after deviating so far from the original topic, let me restate it: the Claymore project is expensive and unless the circumstances force them to open a 2nd lab, they won't do so.

@Sordes Pilosus: I don't think you understand what I said. 50% and 80% are the limit for female, not male. Why do you base everything on females while we are talking about males, the inferior sex when it comes to that aspect? It makes no sense.

Now back the the point of self-realization arguement, all you said were true,I don't argue that, but for female only. Even so those 50% and 80% break points is up to the individual. One can go up to 50% and that's it, the other can go up to 70% and still return. But theoriotically, if one get to 80% It wouldn't matter who she is, it's all over. The point is overall, those break points are way lower for males than for females. The way Yagi put it, for me, indicates that once a male reaches say 10% he accelerates with the speed of light /second up to the top. Well, if you think somehow in that rapid motion, he has time to blink his eyes let alone realize something went wrong while he is human, that's fine with me...



no they do it because it feels good, but once they reach the critical point, things start to drasticly change with their bodies and they realise try to fight it sure its been all good and willing up to this point.

Now let say the acceleration is not that extreme. Your statement is based on the assumption that the drastic change of the bodies created some other sensations rather joy and estacy, in which our male is drowning himself. And from the context of the story, I don't think that was the case. The struggles we've seen so far, imo, were more mental than physical. As a result, if a male lost it from the get-go, there isn't any chance for him to return.

All of this point out the critical problem with male, which is the reason why the Org stopped producing them after realizing the unmendable drawback. Besides, I don't think during the training period the Org let them overuse their yoki. As a matter of fact, from Clare's training, we all see that they only spar each other until fighting something for real in the final test, and that is a very long time, about 10 years I think. And in that chapter, the Org is ready to waste those 10 years rather than iintroducing a failed generation, thus no mercy or assistance during the test at all.

@Ancient Soul : Ye, I forgot that they were immortal :D. Well, I guessed grandpa would use that big old gun :)

[Torri_fay_torren@hot]

While true theres bound to be the odd few males who don't awaken,judging by comments from Isley, Rigardo, Duph and even that male AB who talked alot who confronted Duph and Riful when Isley split his troops made it seem like they were claymores for quiet awhile.

Despite the way Miria said it, I think theres more evidence to suggest males arn't as prone to awakening as she thinks.

The major evidence is that all males seen are adult sized and fully mature, yet the yoki flesh is put in when they are 4-6 years old; Thats 16 years atleast as a Claymore where they didn't suddenly awaken. I would believe it is the case if all male AB's human forms were Riful sized but none look like they are younger than 18.

Anyway male/female it will make no difference who they send onto the field.

I think it happens something like this.

As trainees and newbees, it's not like they have a lot of expierence fighting. There not used to having fights to the death. They haven't been having to realese there Yoki that much. Consaquintly they haven't used there Yoki ( Or at least a large amount of there yoki) a whole lot. When there young. They have practice but that's about.

" We all learn the limits of our yoma power as we fight, releasing bit by bit." Teresa Volume 5.

Then they get out of the training program they start having to fight and really realese there powers learning there limits. Unfortunatly they like it to much and can't stop. Awakening probubly happnes a little after there trainee period.

How long they last all depends on the situation and the individual. They start fighting they start realesing. Maybe some were more cautious or strong enough so that they didn't use as much Yoki and lasted a little longer: Maybe some of them just got into a bad situation and went to far. I think that they only last a few years at best after they finish there training years. I only put Isleys physical age in the 20's and early 20's at that.

[evil_kenshin]

I think it happens something like this.

As trainees and newbees, it's not like they have a lot of expierence fighting. There not used to having fights to the death. They haven't been having to realese there Yoki that much. Consaquintly they haven't used there Yoki ( Or at least a large amount of there yoki) a whole lot. When there young. They have practice but that's about.

" We all learn the limits of our yoma power as we fight, releasing bit by bit." Teresa Volume 5.

Then they get out of the training program they start having to fight and really realese there powers learning there limits. Unfortunatly they like it to much and can't stop. Awakening probubly happnes a little after there trainee period.

How long they last all depends on the situation and the individual. They start fighting they start realesing. Maybe some were more cautious or strong enough so that they didn't use as much Yoki and lasted a little longer: Maybe some of them just got into a bad situation and went to far. I think that they only last a few years at best after they finish there training years. I only put Isleys physical age in the 20's and early 20's at that.

Maybe, but I still think that the males arn't as awakening prone as that.

Clare was around 16 when we first met her, and yet she had been doing missions for atleast a year. If Isley (though presuming they'd send them out on missions like they do now at same age) and his generation were sent out on missions at 15, that is 5-6 years as a Claymore before awakening.

Going by the whole organizations approach "its best when they die young" or something like that, it actually ironically proves better to have males since their almost gaurenteed that the males will "die young" so to speak.


Anyway i'm hesitant to buy into the whole "males awaken easily" stuff thats been brought up twice, just like all females seem to have a difference in terms of how their awakening feels/desire to awaken/resistance to it, no doubt the males were the same.

Besides they only really had one generation of males from what we know of, outside some kamikaze runs with male claymores on the mainland not told about the awakening process, for all we know its cause they weren't taught to surpress their yoki.

[irvinethearcher]

It was because the impulse to awaken was to strong because it made them feel a feeling very simular to ecstacy and the "desire" for more kicks in.

And why is this so different from what i have said before?
I have read the manga again and it would probably not the last time i have to do it but i have found something interesting:

Miria: But like this one they quickley exceeded their limits and awakened.
Miria: In a sense awakening is much like pleasure. When a male releases
his yoma - power he can't surpress the urge to awaken.

And why is that so? Because we all know that men are more horny than women and
women need more time to become aroused.
Miria's words could interpreted that a man who releases his yoma power can't stop the flow, releases more and more of it. The more he releases the more he isn't able to hold back and in the end he normaly inevitably awakens. Perhaps there are exceptions. There was probably only one male generation but i wouldn't bet on it.


Maybe, but I still think that the males aren't as awakening prone as that.

Good point, under normal circumstances they become claymores as children but we don't know if this was valid for the males too because they were the first generation.
Remember, Isley seemed to be a swordsman once perhaps it was before he became a claymore. He said that raki's sword is a fabulous sword and he should treat it well.
Perhaps he has experience in normal weapons and such things because he used them before he became a claymore.
As raki asked him if he is a swordsman isley answered:
A long time ago i gave it a try...
But i gave up soon.

[evil_kenshin]

Good point, under normal circumstances they become claymores as children but we don't know if this was valid for the males too because they were the first generation.
Remember, Isley seemed to be a swordsman once perhaps it was before he became a claymore. He said that raki's sword is a fabulous sword and he should treat it well.
Perhaps he has experience in normal weapons and such things because he used them before he became a claymore.
As raki asked him if he is a swordsman isley answered:
A long time ago i gave it a try...
But i gave up soon.

Judging from what rubel said about Clare nearly being to old for the yoma flesh to take when Clare asked to become a half-yoma (she was around 7-8 at the time), i'd presume Isley and his generation were also claymores from when they were kids.

Isley was a swordsman since he is a former claymore, the number 1 of his generation no less so its no wonder his skilled with the sword.

But you could be right unfortunatly the male generation we don't know much about.

[irvinethearcher]

I've read this argument from you now:


While true theres bound to be the odd few males who don't awaken,judging by comments from Isley, Rigardo, Duph and even that male AB who talked alot who confronted Duph and Riful when Isley split his troops made it seem like they were claymores for quiet awhile.


I remember about it. It indicates that they were Claymores for some time. But we don't know if they released yoki. Or how much yoki they released. If miria was right a male claymore couldn't fight long with yoki release without going over his limit. Even little yoki release seems to trigger this.

Please, can you tell me in which chapter rubel said this about the age of clare?

[evil_kenshin]

I've read this argument from you now:



I remember about it. It indicates that they were Claymores for some time. But we don't know if they released yoki. Or how much yoki they released. If miria was right a male claymore couldn't fight long with yoki release without going over his limit. Even little yoki release seems to trigger this.

But what i mean is, if as Miria pointed out that for males yoki release = sexual pleasure and its unresistable, then all males would of woken at their puberty so around 14-15.

Being Claymores and that from the sparse information we have we know Isley, Rigald and Duph competed for top place, that to me means they competed in terms of missions and sparing match's.

and all missions seem to involve battles, i think either Rubel over exagerated or he lied (him being miria's "source of information").

Since there was only one male generation in the "Experiment" then how do they know the effects on male half yoma? sure we have the ones on the mainland but they arn't trained to the same effect nor told that they will awaken from what I gather.

[irvinethearcher]

I thought about that too. Before this age they must have been able to release more yoki.
Please tell me about the chapter rubel said that clare was nearly to old for a claymore.

[evil_kenshin]

I thought about that too. Before this age they must have been able to release more yoki.
Please tell me about the chapter rubel said that clare was nearly to old for a claymore.

To be honest I can't find it :( I know it was mentioned either in the Anime or Manga where Rubel says to Clare about when they made her a claymore that she was nearly to old for the yoma flesh to take to her body.

But yea all Claymores once they have yoma flesh can release yoki, so the males in theory should of awakened when they were just entering their teens due to all the hormones and stuff lol.

Also considering Isley,Rigard and Duph were constantly competiting, which includes fighting they had to of used yoki plenty of times with no ill effect or atleast no differing effect to that of the females.

Either Yagi's made a flawed reason as to why there are no male Claymores or something is being covered up.

anyway I'll keep trying to find where Rubel says it,but i know he did say it for sure.

[irvinethearcher]

Okay, thx and good luck:)
The problem is that i can't remember. Perhaps it is in the first episodes where he talks much with clare.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

I don't really know where you're getting at when you write this:confused: All I can say is that no one can bee success with your version of kamikaze for 100+ years. I say it works for 1 year with the best possible cover-up. And where did I mention anything about using females in the same maner as males? And the last sentence.., whut? For me, until the females are ready: a) don't use anything and start focusing on defence b) choose some zealot among the warriors and send them to the mainland.


:D What I find strange is that you argue someone will notice when it comes to the Kamikaze fighters, yet you think that the Org needs the island for economical reasons and That the Org ships off Claymores from the Island to the Mainland. Someone would notice any kind of exports from the island and the Claymores would notice if someone just mysteriously disapeared, and considering that there are only 47 of them on the Island, that wouldn't be very useful to take one every once in awhile for a war. Now as for someone noticing the kamikaze warriors eventually, well you only do it to soldiers that just arrive to the war, not the ones that have been there. Do you know what is going on in Iraq and Afganistan besides the little you hear on the news, really? And I doubt the Org allows freedom of the press. As for the bit about focusing in on defense, well it sounds all fine and dandy, but you don't even know what you are talking about there. You're making a blanket statement pure and simple. You know nothing about the situation there. You probably know nothing about military strategy. Exactly how do they focus in on defense? What are you talking about? As for B) which Claymore is a zealot? You have lots?

What are you getting at? My point is simple: they didn't use anything at all. As I pointed out, the risk outdos the benefits. The first few males when sent into the battle field didn't know the ease by which they could be turned into a monster. But people learn fast.

How does one learn fast about what goes on the battle field if one has never been to the battle field? You think that there are war reporters out there?

Now after deviating so far from the original topic, let me restate it: the Claymore project is expensive and unless the circumstances force them to open a 2nd lab, they won't do so.

Now who is assuming a lot? I'm not talking about the cost of the experiment, but of the org's finances.

[dunames]

it not like all male claymore become awaken being. maria and ermita just saying that the male claymore when releasing their yoki they feel something akin to sexual pleasure. basically when the male claymore release their yoki, it feel like they r having sex. the more they release their yoki, the stronger their feeling/pleasure get. it also comfirm by helen that female claymore also feel this sexual plasure as well.

Guyz are horny and all they think about is S3X.
Galz are better at controlling their emotion so they can deal and resist this sexual pleasure a lot more then the guyz.

if u take a bunch of virgin guyz and give them the ability to experience sexual pleasure just by switch teh switch on/off, how effective do u think that guyz will be able to do it jobs.

as u all remember, the more each claymore release it yoki, the worst their body deteriate and they will eventauly awake. what maria was probably saying is that since male are horny as we all know it, they are probabaly just release their yoki just for the sexual pleasure/feeling they get from it. since they do it all the time, they dont last as long as female warrior. Galz can control their emotion and feeling a lot better then guy in general so resisting this pleasure is a lot easier for them. cause of this, a average galz claymore can fight longer then a guy claymore.

sicne galz is more stable since they can keep the teh feelign the feel form release yoki better in check then guyz, they in telong run will make better more stable soldier then guyz claymore.

[dunames]

here a nasty specualtion of what could have happen that would cause the org to complete abandon guy claymore.

u know how all gallz think aobut is food adn chocolate and more and choclate. so far, i think the only galz claymore that was shown to us while she awake is Prisy and Ophilia. after Prisy awake, she went on a eating rampage. after Ophy awaken she went on a food searching mission.

k u know how all guyz think about is s3x. well what if right after a male awaken, they went on a raping rampage raping every1 in their path....this can very well leave scar mark deep enough on the org and it members and other test subject to never ever want to make male claymore ever again.

[evil_kenshin]

While i could see Duph raping (and I think Riful confirms he does), Isley and Rigardo don't seem like the type to rape women.

besides your posts are full of sterotypes lol

Not every guy thinks about sex 24/7
Women are usually more emotional, not men

[iLney]

Srewed IE, typed everything then error. @#$#@%#$

:D What I find strange is that you argue someone will notice when it comes to the Kamikaze fighters, yet you think that the Org needs the island for economical reasons
You think, I don't. Don't put words in my mouth. I said the ORG taxed the citizen for financial reasons (isn't it obvious), and taxed them hard while proving that they needed the trust and respect of the citizen and taxing them in such a way would only bring more hatred which then indicated the needed for money of the project.


and That the Org ships off Claymores from the Island to the Mainland. Someone would notice any kind of exports from the island and the Claymores would notice if someone just mysteriously disapeared, and considering that there are only 47 of them on the Island, that wouldn't be very useful to take one every once in awhile for a war.

If you read it again, the citizens did belive there was other land rather than this continent, it's just human nature. And they did send ship to confirm that belief BUT none of them ever returned.
And those girls would not put too much thought into such trivial matters. Why trivial? They all knew that a Claymore will end up either killed by their comrades, killed in actions or accidently becoming an AB targeted by the rest of the warriors, who were by then, except for some rare cases which I'll explain later, wouldn't give a rat about who that AB once was. Life went on. Remembered the girl Clare killed, would Clare mind inquest what happened to her if the black letter was sent to someone else? Even the girl in the training arc was nowhere to be found. Firstly, no one would ask about it. Secondly, even if one did, there were too many reasons to explain: KIA, black letter, AB... Now the only cases where we saw someone really concerned about their friends were Miria's and Undine's. For Undine's, her friend was KIA, no hard feeling toward the Org. For Miria, it was because she killed Hilda herself with the helping hand of the Org #4. And she found out those secret only because someone within the Org told her. If Hilda just vanished out of the blue, the Org would just tell Miria she had sent a letter to someone else. Hilda was a nice girl, it wouldn't be surprised if she had many close friends.

One more point, since as you said there were only 47 active warriors. The Org would know each of them very well, their characteristics, their friends, relationship ect... as showed by Rubel. With such intelligence, covering up something would be extremely easy unless someone within them intentionally messed up. The obvious case was the incident with Raph/Luci. Even Clare didn't know what an AO was until told by Galatea. And even Galatea didn't know why Luci awakened. You see, they covered things professionally.

Even if the Org did sent someone (we didn't know if they did), it would be a claymore who they had full control of, someone blindly trusted the nature of the Organization (like little Priscilla). They aren't gonna send someone like Miria or Clare or Teresa. The most important goal up to this point of the project is control not power. And since we don't know anything about other generations, we could say nothing about what happened to them.

Now as for someone noticing the kamikaze warriors eventually, well you only do it to soldiers that just arrive to the war, not the ones that have been there. Do you know what is going on in Iraq and Afganistan besides the little you hear on the news, really?

When you go there, you will see the picture youself and others soldiers will tell you. Simple. Or you implying that everytime they have to use a claymore they must make sure everyone in the last mission are dead? :twitch: Because that is the only way I can see for the words not to spread. WoW, those people must grow up really fast or have insane birthrate to make up for that tactic for 100 years....

And I doubt the Org allows freedom of the press. As for the bit about focusing in on defense, well it sounds all fine and dandy, but you don't even know what you are talking about there. You're making a blanket statement pure and simple. You know nothing about the situation there. You probably know nothing about military strategy. Exactly how do they focus in on defense? What are you talking about? As for B) which Claymore is a zealot? You have lots?

But not freedom of speech? :) Allowing or not is one thing. Effectively achieves such censorship is another. When we dicuss something, we simplify facts into a reasonable level because there would be too many factors to keep track of, some of them are minor and would not affect the outcome greatly, while some of them are major and could drastically alter everything. Now if you see some of the factors you think are important but left out, feel free to add them into the discussion. If you don't, don't begin the "you guys don't know what is really going on out there" because it is not reality, pure and simple. I don't know why you start attacking me :confused:

Since, I don't know what the Org's side in their military power, I cannot make any detailed plans as to how they could do it. BUT holding a position requires less effort than taking it down, stand behind the wall shooting arrows down is easier than standing down there and shooting up, placing traps is easier than removing them ect... You want to know exactly how? Ask Yagi. We don't know how, but we know they can. Otherwise, their side was long defeated. Remember Miria's story, before those two factions, there were countless of them, and somehow two of the strongest stood on top. The the Org side didn't have the meat they would'be been destroyed. Remember the Claymore project was initiated AFTER the other faction gained the support of the DoD. And research takes time. If the Org's side relied only on the project they would have been lost. In WWI, although tanks were first used by the British, it was not the war-winning element. Or the German was the first to use U-boat but their navy didn't stand a chance against the combined naval powered of the Allied.


How does one learn fast about what goes on the battle field if one has never been to the battle field? You think that there are war reporters out there?

Who said he had to master the battle field? You? The claymore only needed to learn what would happen to him. The soldiers who survived the last mission will freak out if they saw another big-sword carriers joining them. The warrior was not too dumb to recognize the strange atmosphere where he was supposed to be their savior. Then those fresh claymore would naturally want to speak with other veteran claymores, tough luck for him, there was none. And even if against all odds, he noticed nothing, wouldn't the DoDs be so nice to make those information more accessible? If they can infiltrate into the highly classified lab, sending a man or two into enemies frontline would be like taking candy from a baby. In my one of my other posts which you ignored, I have explained why I think the risk of using male claymores are unacceptable in such a large scale war. Well feel free to find it and tell me if you find anything absurd in my rant.

Now who is assuming a lot? I'm not talking about the cost of the experiment, but of the org's finances.

I am, because you took that statement out of nowhere and ignored all my argument for it.:uhoh:

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Srewed IE, typed everything then error. @#$#@%#$Use Firefox. ;)


You think, I don't. Don't put words in my mouth. I said the ORG taxed the citizen for financial reasons (isn't it obvious), and taxed them hard while proving that they needed the trust and respect of the citizen and taxing them in such a way would only bring more hatred which then indicated the needed for money of the project.

If I put words in your mouth, it wasn't on purpose. I've heard that theory, but it proved nothing of the kind to me. I still favor the theory that the island is an experiment, a medieval matrix if you will, where town folk and Claymore alike are fooled. I believe it matters not to the org how the towns folk feel, since they are there in the lab to feed the yoma and ABs that are necessary to test the Claymores on. Most of the things the org does are a control thing; they don't necessarily have to be logical, to me much of what regimes like the former USSR did weren't necessarily logical as far as it concerns to how you have to treat people and why. The org just seems to be another one of those totalitarian regimes to me, at least on the island.

If you read it again, the citizens did belive there was other land rather than this continent, it's just human nature. And they did send ship to confirm that belief BUT none of them ever returned.

Does it say non ever returned? I was under the impression that they just never found land, and so returned empty handed.


And those girls would not put too much thought into such trivial matters. Why trivial? They all knew that a Claymore will end up either killed by their comrades, killed in actions or accidently becoming an AB targeted by the rest of the warriors, who were by then, except for some rare cases which I'll explain later, wouldn't give a rat about who that AB once was. Life went on. Remembered the girl Clare killed, would Clare mind inquest what happened to her if the black letter was sent to someone else? Even the girl in the training arc was nowhere to be found. Firstly, no one would ask about it. Secondly, even if one did, there were too many reasons to explain: KIA, black letter, AB... Now the only cases where we saw someone really concerned about their friends were Miria's and Undine's. For Undine's, her friend was KIA, no hard feeling toward the Org. For Miria, it was because she killed Hilda herself with the helping hand of the Org #4. And she found out those secret only because someone within the Org told her. If Hilda just vanished out of the blue, the Org would just tell Miria she had sent a letter to someone else. Hilda was a nice girl, it wouldn't be surprised if she had many close friends.

The problem is, for them to not to notice, it would mean that a Claymore is only taken every once in awhile. That wouldn't be very effective, if you are trying to fight a war with ABs. If you too a lot of claymores at onces, or very frequently, then someone would notice. As for your thing about Claymores not caring for other claymores, you over simplify. ;) Two of the ghosts happen to be inseparable. Clare had Jean. Tabitah anyone? There seems to be some sort of bond between Yuma and Clare. Did Raphaela love her sister? I could go on.

One more point, since as you said there were only 47 active warriors. The Org would know each of them very well, their characteristics, their friends, relationship ect... as showed by Rubel. With such intelligence, covering up something would be extremely easy unless someone within them intentionally messed up. The obvious case was the incident with Raph/Luci. Even Clare didn't know what an AO was until told by Galatea. And even Galatea didn't know why Luci awakened. You see, they covered things professionally.


You're assuming everyone in the org is as good at it as Rubel. I tend to think that Rubel is talented.

Even if the Org did sent someone (we didn't know if they did), it would be a claymore who they had full control of, someone blindly trusted the nature of the Organization (like little Priscilla). They aren't gonna send someone like Miria or Clare or Teresa. The most important goal up to this point of the project is control not power. And since we don't know anything about other generations, we could say nothing about what happened to them.

Trust can be shattered when one finds out they've been lied to. What would Priscilla think when she finds out that the org has the resources to get rid of the yoma problem on the island? What would a Claymore think when they found out their whole reason to become a Claymore was a lie, not to protect people from yoma, but to become an awakened being to fight an enemy at a far away place. Why would they naturally think that the DoD are the bad guys and the Org the good guys after they've been lied to? You also assuming a lot about how blindly Priscilla would follow the org. Priscilla had some very strong believes that drove her.

When you go there, you will see the picture youself and others soldiers will tell you. Simple. Or you implying that everytime they have to use a claymore they must make sure everyone in the last mission are dead? :twitch: Because that is the only way I can see for the words not to spread. WoW, those people must grow up really fast or have insane birthrate to make up for that tactic for 100 years....

We don't know how the other soldiers view the ABs. It might very well be in a good light, especially if they have DoDs destroying them. You don't know if the soldiers cheer out lout when one awakens, even if some of their team mates are squashed as it makes its way to the seemingly, until then, unstoppable Dragons. For all you know, the rest of the soldiers could be in on it and give each other a knowing wink. You also don't know if those soldiers don't carry claymores or are enhanced in any way. People here tend to think that there is something special about the MiBs. I'm not saying any of these are necessarily the reality, but I see too many possibilities to take your argument as fact.

Now if you see some of the factors you think are important but left out, feel free to add them into the discussion. If you don't, don't begin the "you guys don't know what is really going on out there" because it is not reality, pure and simple. I don't know why you start attacking me :confused:

I'm not attacking you. You think differently from most people -- a sort of devil's advocate -- which is a good thing. :) Anyway I don't address everything either because of time constraints -- gotta get to work! -- and I might think another statement addressed it already.

Since, I don't know what the Org's side in their military power, I cannot make any detailed plans as to how they could do it. BUT holding a position requires less effort than taking it down, stand behind the wall shooting arrows down is easier than standing down there and shooting up, placing traps is easier than removing them ect... You want to know exactly how? Ask Yagi.

The point was that "They need to focus in on Defense," is a blanket statement. I could say they need to focus in on Offense and it sounds just as true, and provides just as little meaningful value.


Who said he had to master the battle field? You? The claymore only needed to learn what would happen to him. The soldiers who survived the last mission will freak out if they saw another big-sword carriers joining them. The warrior was not too dumb to recognize the strange atmosphere where he was supposed to be their savior. Then those fresh claymore would naturally want to speak with other veteran claymores, tough luck for him, there was none. And even if against all odds, he noticed nothing, wouldn't the DoDs be so nice to make those information more accessible? If they can infiltrate into the highly classified lab, sending a man or two into enemies frontline would be like taking candy from a baby. In my one of my other posts which you ignored, I have explained why I think the risk of using male claymores are unacceptable in such a large scale war. Well feel free to find it and tell me if you find anything absurd in my rant.


You are assuming they freak out; I think I addressed this above. Enemy propaganda isn't something that has never been used before either, like loud speakers used by North Korea. The dropping of leaflets by us in Afganistan, showing a shaven Osama. I don't quote agree with you about how all this would play out psychologically. I don't think you have proven your case to me yet. I see many different possibilities here

[quote][quote]As far as we knew, the Org only used the local folks. And they must have to somehow please them or make them believe they're the good guys. If a cow gives better and more profitable misk when listening to music, give it a song. It's not for the development of the bovine's culture, it's for their milk.

Now after deviating so far from the original topic, let me restate it: the Claymore project is expensive and unless the circumstances force them to open a 2nd lab, they won't do soNow who is assuming a lot? I'm not talking about the cost of the experiment, but of the org's finances.
I am, because you took that statement out of nowhere and ignored all my argument for it.:uhoh:

Okay, I've added your entire quote section in the nested quote above. That is where I took your statement from, and therein your argument strangely enough involved cows and milk, which btw didn't even get into cost analysis of how much cost it would take to play the music constantly vs. the added profit for better tasting milk. ;) But perhaps, you refer to some argument you previously made, and alas I am not but human and have forgotten about your previous posts. I really don't know what arguments you are talking about at this point of time, or if I have even ignored them since they weren't made in the quote I was addressing, unless it is the cows and milk which I doubt. Please do point though.

I've been rereading the manga lately. One thing I noticed -- and it could be my translation -- but rubel called the body of land that the claymores are on a small island. Do they even have the same currency as the mainland? It's hard to see how a small island, which has a primitive society, doesn't have major exports, is plagued by yoma and awakened beings can make much of the way in profit, or at least by the orgs standards who has enough funds to have their hundred year war. A yoma hunt we know costs a village dearly; it seems to be practically all their money, an amount which we've seen Claymores scoff at, which fits in a small enough bag.

[KillerYomaFromSpace]

For Miria, it was because she killed Hilda herself with the helping hand of the Org #4. And she found out those secret only because someone within the Org told her. If Hilda just vanished out of the blue, the Org would just tell Miria she had sent a letter to someone else. Hilda was a nice girl, it wouldn't be surprised if she had many close friends.


no, she already knew, Rubel only confirmed it

http://www.onemanga.com/Claymore/80/07/

[iLney]

Use Firefox. ;)

Not used to it :D, and I don't like fox.


I still favor the theory that the island is an experiment, a medieval matrix if you will, where town folk and Claymore alike are fooled.

So that's why. I think of those people much higher :)

Does it say non ever returned? I was under the impression that they just never found land, and so returned empty handed.

Doesn't matter. They had doubts and somehow the Org found a way to silent them.


The problem is, for them to not to notice, it would mean that a Claymore is only taken every once in awhile. That wouldn't be very effective, if you are trying to fight a war with ABs. If you too a lot of claymores at onces, or very frequently, then someone would notice. As for your thing about Claymores not caring for other claymores, you over simplify. ;) Two of the ghosts happen to be inseparable. Clare had Jean. Tabitah anyone? There seems to be some sort of bond between Yuma and Clare. Did Raphaela love her sister? I could go on.

I also said the Org wouldn't just send anyone. And I never supported nor rejected the theory that they sent females to the island. I only said all of those things were needed because eventually they had to send someone.

You're assuming everyone in the org is as good at it as Rubel. I tend to think that Rubel is talented.

Ermita seemed pretty sharp too :) Besides, handling those girls is their expertise, and they should be good at it, overall they had 100+ years of experiences. Now in case they did sent females to the mainland,there are chances that some of the warriors did not cooperate. Thus, they could learn from the mistakes and be more concerned about the psychological lives of those claymores.

Trust can be shattered when one finds out they've been lied to. What would Priscilla think when she finds out that the org has the resources to get rid of the yoma problem on the island? What would a Claymore think when they found out their whole reason to become a Claymore was a lie, not to protect people from yoma, but to become an awakened being to fight an enemy at a far away place. Why would they naturally think that the DoD are the bad guys and the Org the good guys after they've been lied to? You also assuming a lot about how blindly Priscilla would follow the org. Priscilla had some very strong believes that drove her.
That is IF they let her find out. They could just tell Priscilla that the origin of yoma was the DoD. Priscilla didn't seem very bright for me. As I said, they could devote an entire section just for that purpose.


We don't know how the other soldiers view the ABs. It might very well be in a good light, especially if they have DoDs destroying them. You don't know if the soldiers cheer out lout when one awakens, even if some of their team mates are squashed as it makes its way to the seemingly, until then, unstoppable Dragons. For all you know, the rest of the soldiers could be in on it and give each other a knowing wink. You also don't know if those soldiers don't carry claymores or are enhanced in any way. People here tend to think that there is something special about the MiBs. I'm not saying any of these are necessarily the reality, but I see too many possibilities to take your argument as fact.

It was just an argument, a very reasonable one I think :) Yes, we don't know but if it were me, I won't stand close to the thing that can eat me in any second, especially when I saw how it was before...


The point was that "They need to focus in on Defense," is a blanket statement. I could say they need to focus in on Offense and it sounds just as true, and provides just as little meaningful value.

The Org's side was in an inferior position. Offensive strategy made no sense in such a prolonged war. Furthermore, they were waiting for the result of the project.

You are assuming they freak out; I think I addressed this above. Enemy propaganda isn't something that has never been used before either, like loud speakers used by North Korea. The dropping of leaflets by us in Afganistan, showing a shaven Osama. I don't quote agree with you about how all this would play out psychologically. I don't think you have proven your case to me yet. I see many different possibilities here.

Propaganda is too big a word in this situation. The DoD intelligence only needed to target a selected few inexperienced and naive warriors. That's easy. Besides, the information of what would happen to them was common among the soldiers only unknown to those unlucky warriors (if that is possible).

Okay, I've added your entire quote section in the nested quote above. That is where I took your statement from, and therein your argument strangely enough involved cows and milk, which btw didn't even get into cost analysis of how much cost it would take to play the music constantly vs. the added profit for better tasting milk. ;) But perhaps, you refer to some argument you previously made, and alas I am not but human and have forgotten about your previous posts. I really don't know what arguments you are talking about at this point of time, or if I have even ignored them since they weren't made in the quote I was addressing, unless it is the cows and milk which I doubt. Please do point though.

I've been rereading the manga lately. One thing I noticed -- and it could be my translation -- but rubel called the body of land that the claymores are on a small island.

Uhm, you picked the wrong one....



.... an amount which we've seen Claymores scoff at, which fits in a small enough bag....

Gold...


It's hard to see how a small island, which has a primitive society, doesn't have major exports, is plagued by yoma and awakened beings can make much of the way in profit.

A continent, not an island. And big enough to make some believe it was the only one in the world. And besides, human's greatest enemy is human. The havoc those yoma caused is nothing compared those caused by the war. Let not just say war. We all saw what that band of bandits did to the village compared to what the yoma Teresa killed did. So I can say that, the villages here were at much better shape than those in the mainland.

@KillerYomaFromSpace: she cross-checked after being told, and that is, trust me, 1000x easier having to do all on her own. Besides, we didn't even know if it were really Rubel :)

[irvinethearcher]

@KillerYomaFromSpace: she cross-checked after being told, and that is, trust me, 1000x easier having to do all on her own. Besides, we didn't even know if it were really Rubel
It's the same i thought about that too. She sniffed around to and compared rubel's or perhaps ermita's information with her own research and couldn't find any contradictions.
IMO ermita has to be rubel's right hand there are many things indicating that. For example
ermita said to galatea that she probably has to cross swords with the fab4 and he observed everything from the distance.

[Fenrir_valindri]

Knowing the Organization, the hybridization process can be done at almost any point in a persons life, but they prefer hybridizing Claymores young so they can train obedience into them. They have proven time and again that they barely tolerate personalities like the Miria/Galatea/Teresa and generally only because they are powerful/useful.

It wouldn't surprise me if the male generation were fully mature soldiers who volunteered for the "operation" to put them on even footing with the DoD and ended up awakening as soon as they began to employ their powers in high-stress situations. It also wouldn't surprise me if many male warriors attempted to Awaken on purpose thinking that they could control themselves. Especially if they were in the middle of battle against the enemy. (Think typical shonen hero with super-powered evil half, except gone wrong)

[irvinethearcher]

Knowing the Organization, the hybridization process can be done at almost any point in a persons life, but they prefer hybridizing Claymores young so they can train obedience into them. They have proven time and again that they barely tolerate personalities like the Miria/Galatea/Teresa and generally only because they are powerful/useful.

It wouldn't surprise me if the male generation were fully mature soldiers who volunteered for the "operation" to put them on even footing with the DoD and ended up awakening as soon as they began to employ their powers in high-stress situations. It also wouldn't surprise me if many male warriors attempted to Awaken on purpose thinking that they could control themselves. Especially if they were in the middle of battle against the enemy. (Think typical shonen hero with super-powered evil half, except gone wrong)

It's the same i think but how do you know that hybridization can be done at any point in a persons life? evil_kenshin said that he has read that rubel or someone said that claymores have to be at young age. I have searched parts of the manga but i couldn't find it so i think that it doesn't exist but i didn't scan everything.

[evil_kenshin]

It's the same i think but how do you know that hybridization can be done at any point in a persons life? evil_kenshin said that he has read that rubel or someone said that claymores have to be at young age. I have searched parts of the manga but i couldn't find it so i think that it doesn't exist but i didn't scan everything.

well I admit I can't seem to find it in the manga, so if it was said it would be in the anime. Anyway I will say i may of been mistaken, since i honestly recall it being said but can't find the line anywhere :heh:

[Double_friedman]

Hey guys, how strong do you think Alicia is?
How much yoki power would she need to defeat Rigaldo with ease?

Base power, 10%, 30%??

[Wiggle wyrm]

It doesn’t specifically say, but I’d suspect only children could be successfully hybridized.

Children still have a ways to go before they are fully grown. The yoma flesh, once it has been established, should grow along with the rest of the body

If done in an adult, the yoma flesh would have nowhere to go, as adults don’t really get new tissue. Unless of course we’re talking about cancerous growths (like the men in black).

[chibamonster]

One hint we do have is Irene's words; "We half youma mature but we do not age. We keep the same form until we die or turn into a youma. If Teresa were still alive she would probably look the same as she did then."

So for half youma to mature, they must have not finished their growth. Also most of the trainee's we see are younger and they have yet to develop. And yes, I am talking about their breasts. Sorry. It is a big indicator as to age. And... has anyone noticed that Renee is the most top heavy Claymore since Teresa? Once again, sorry.

Another interesting piece of information we can take from Irene's talk with Clare is that enough time had passed since Teresa died that, had she been human, she would have noticeably aged.

[hell88]

And... has anyone noticed that Renee is the most top heavy Claymore since Teresa? Once again, sorry.

Lol I noticed.:p

[KillerYomaFromSpace]

And... has anyone noticed that Renee is the most top heavy Claymore since Teresa? Once again, sorry.

I felt that for some reason I started to like René in this chapter, and now, thanks to you, I may know why =P

[hell88]

I felt that for some reason I started to like René in this chapter, and now, thanks to you, I may know why =P

Thats what I thought too.:heh:

[shelter]

I felt that for some reason I started to like René in this chapter, and now, thanks to you, I may know why =P

I think Rene is the subject of all of Yagi's fantasy & anger. All she does is make an appearance & chat a bit with Raki, and the next thing we see her getting the bondage treatment with Riful.

And yes we know so much about her to feel sympathetic too :heh::heh:

[Torri_fay_torren@hot]

Also most of the trainee's we see are younger and they have yet to develop. And yes, I am talking about their breasts. Sorry. It is a big indicator as to age. And... has anyone noticed that Renee is the most top heavy Claymore since Teresa? Once again, sorry.

.

While were on the subject...maybe it' just me, but does anybody else think Clare has developed? Just a little? And not just her chest. She seems taller.
[Chiba why are you apologizing? We know you don't really mean it? :p ]

[Droplet]

While were on the subject...maybe it' just me, but does anybody else think Clare has developed? Just a little? And not just her chest. She seems taller.


Yeah, compared to how she looked like in chapter one, she looks more like a lady now. She just looked about 13-14 back then. Now she looks 20+. At least she does in my opinion. As for whether she grew taller, it's barely noticeable. Maybe you're right though.

[SuperiorX]

WHAT^^^ there was a 7 year skip so yea you are gona grow a bit i guesss...... it just means that clare was still growing up.

[KillerYomaFromSpace]

thats weird because, Clare said that when a warrior is fighting for a long time, they reach their limit, and the friend that sent her the black card was from the same time as her, so, either it happened too fast for her friend, or Clare has been a claymore for more time than she looks

[Ryuken]

So different growth rates for different claymores until they reach their limit.

[hell88]

thats weird because, Clare said that when a warrior is fighting for a long time, they reach their limit, and the friend that sent her the black card was from the same time as her, so, either it happened too fast for her friend, or Clare has been a claymore for more time than she looks

Mabye Clare and her friend weren't that old yet.

I've noticed this about Clare, in the earlier chapters you can see it in her face, she looks younger. Now when you look at her she does look like she's 20 something.

[Awakened]

While were on the subject...maybe it' just me, but does anybody else think Clare has developed? Just a little? And not just her chest. She seems taller.
[Chiba why are you apologizing? We know you don't really mean it? :p ]

Yagi drawing of Clare has matured. lol

At the begining of the manga, Clare did not look quit right. She looks much better now.

[Droplet]

Yagi drawing of Clare has matured. lol

At the begining of the manga, Clare did not look quit right. She looks much better now.

Since most of you notice it too, I'm quite impressed at Yagi for maintaining this subtle consistency. :)

[Torri_fay_torren@hot]

Mabye Clare and her friend weren't that old yet.

I've noticed this about Clare, in the earlier chapters you can see it in her face, she looks younger. Now when you look at her she does look like she's 20 something.

That really makes me wonder just how old Clare was when she actually started bieng a Claymore.{Working} And how old she is know. And how long is a long time according to Clare. I tend to think that if Clare had been a Clamore for a while then she might have started out kind of young.

And I know that Claymores mature but don't age, but could they mature slower beacues of the Clamorization?.

[hell88]

That really makes me wonder just how old Clare was when she actually started bieng a Claymore.{Working} And how old she is know. And how long is a long time according to Clare. I tend to think that if Clare had been a Clamore for a while then she might have started out kind of young.

And I know that Claymores mature but don't age, but could they mature slower beacues of the Clamorization?.

Mabye Clare ages a little bit more than all the others because she is only 1/4 yoma, but when you look at Miria, Helen, and Deneve they kind of look a bit older as well.

[Vinak]

Yagi just improved on his drawing ability. Everything looks less artistic in the earlier chapters.

[iLney]

Is it just me or Alicia&Beth seem younger than Clare ? :confused:

[evil_kenshin]

Is it just me or Alicia&Beth seem younger than Clare ? :confused:

well they are younger to be fair ;)

[iLney]

Ah thank you. The last time I asked "is it just me" everyone replied "yes" :(

It's strange though. I thought Alica and Beth were just like 7-9 years younger than Teresa. So when Teresa were 30 when she was alive, Alicia and Beth should be around 20, but they were nowhere to be found in Teresa's generation.