View Full Version : Island War [Manga]
A warning for all readers-unless you are current with the manga you should be aware this entire thread is likely to be filled with spoilers.
For those of you who are current with the manga, it is becoming abundantly clear that the island upon which all the characters reside is about to be torn apart by a fierce war. Riful seems set to attempt the awakening of the merged remains of Luciella/Rafaela while the Ghosts have kicked off the beginning of a large-scale anti-Organization rebellion. These actions will act as catalysts, along with those of Rubel/Organization's enemies (see Chapter 84) to start an island-wide war into which all sides will be drawn in a fight for supremacy & survival.
The Factions:
Ghosts
Western Abyssal(s?)
Southern Abyssals
The Organization
Organization's Enemy/Dragonkin (outside enemy not currently fighting on island but interfering)
But if you don't see what you want to talk about in the following section, don't worry! Feel free to discuss everything and anything regarding the Island War on this thread however much you like.
There are a number of areas in which to think about with the coming war:
1.) The Current Strategic Situation (balance of power (war strength, etc), strengths/weaknesses of each side, relations between factions)
B.) Changes in the Strategic situation? Causes? Possible future changes?
2.) What faction is most vulnerable to a shift in the balance of power? What actions will each faction take to compensate?
3.) What would happen if the mainland Organization/mainland Organization's Enemies + Dragonkin were to actively intervene?
4.) Chances of Factions' deaths/Ultimate fate of faction(s)...
I'll give an example of how you might approach this from the perspective of just one faction, the Ghosts:
1. Currently the Ghosts are the weakest of the four main factions actually on the island. Their top two fighters are sub-Abyssal strength but clearly stronger than the Organization's number 3 Audrey. Their equivalent strength is perhaps equal to all Claymores 2-15, but they will eventually be overwhelmed if by nothing else sheer numbers & Claymore Number 1, Alicia. However they have the advantages of being all of a relatively high level (excepting Clarice), having two Eyes (Galatea & Tabitha), being able to move unobserved due to Youki suppression, attracting defectors from the Organization, and also intelligence advantages that may help them turn most of the island's population/some Claymores against the organization. However, due to the current situation of having their numbers spread out, they are highly vulnerable to being picked off in small groups whereas they'd be more effective together in a single large group. Their current relations with Riful & the Organization seems to imply they will find themselves fighting one or both groups early on.
B.) With a possible awakening of the merged Rafaela/Luciella the Ghosts are going to become even more weak relative to the other factions. Their advantage of stealth however may make it less of a liability than it would otherwise be.
2.) Currently the Ghosts are not the faction most vulnerable to a shift in power due to their stealthy nature. Instead that is the Organization whose members are easily detected by the other three factions. It is likely that to compensate for a shift in power on the island the Ghosts will start attracting dissident claymores to their ranks through use of their nearly unmatched intelligence on the Organization (provided via Rubel/Organization's enemies).
3.) Were either side from the mainland to send forces to actively intervene in the island's affairs, the Ghosts might react by organizing the island's humans. What I mean by that is they currently have an army within almost arm's grasp literally. The city of Rabona maintains substantial armed forces (the only apparently on the island), is heavily fortified, and most importantly, is hardly friendly with the organization. It is not hard to imagine the Ghosts leading an army of human soldiers against an opposing army from either enemy side on the mainland if they are forced to. The reaction might be different if it is the mainland organization that sends the army, which might encourage the Ghosts to request aid from the opposing side & its Dragonkin rather than lead their own.
4.) For the Ghosts the chances of failure/death is very high, but coincidentally they also have a high chance of enduring the conflict, as they are highly mobile, stealthy, fairly strong, and tend to work in well-coordinated teams. However until they demonstrate the ability to take down an Abyssal one they will have little chance of ultimate success.
While I might have my opinion, I want to hear everyone's on what's about to happen or as it happens. With the first blows about to be exchanged, now is as good as any time to talk about where you see things, where they're going, and even indulge in some rampant speculation along the way.
Finally a thread for all this stuff!:D Now everyone can stop talking about it everywhere else!:heh:
BTW first post! I never get the first post. Now we just need a thread for Teresa and Priscilla.:heh:
As much as I think it's great that we can finally discuss these things out in the open, perhaps we might need to put some of the stuff into spoilers?
And for a start to this discussion, I believe that the term "Island War" is too narrow a term to describe the state of things with which the so-called Island is in now. Only the Ghosts understand that there's a greater conflict, but half of them seem to embroiled in personal struggles to consider the spectre of it. In addition, the term "Island War" assumes the Organization itself values the state of the island (or the island-state, if it makes any sense) & seeks to maintain the balance between yoma, AB, warrior, Organization & human - in that hierachical order.
Last but not least, "Island War" is a rather overarching term, but I noticed that there isn't much mention of the Dragon-Kin. I think they will play a crucial part in the battle should there be any war.
The politics of this "island" are rather complicated, really. And I think as Yagi releases more chapters we'll start to understand the fluidity of control in the Claymore world.
KillerYomaFromSpace
2008-10-23, 03:44
Isley is the one we don't know about yet, he will not ally Riful, but he may ally with the ghosts, the org, or the "others" (this faction really needs an oficial name)
We don't know about Raciela either, but I think Riful will get what she want, because right now, I see her faction as the weakest, with Raciela's boost it may become the strongest.
It's most likely that the ghosts are going to be a great power if they get Priscila and Miata to fight on their side, however, those may be double-edged weapons. They may also get Galatea, and future Claymores may join the cause too (maybe René, or Audrey (she didn't reveal who saved them)).
They may also get Isley if he turns out to be a good guy (but I hate the idea of a male fighter with the ghosts other than Raki (and because he is already with Clare)) and even if he join the ghosts he can still betray them at the end making him even more of an asshole instead.
The org has Alicia and Beth, and then a lot of useless claymores that will either join the rebellion or fall against the mighty yuma punch :heh: I think the org is pretty much screwed with so many powerful enemies out there.
About the other faction, we don't know much about them yet, but I think Rubel can tansform into a huge monster if he wants to, or else I don't know what would keep Clare for not ripping his head off in the next chapter.
reexample
2008-10-23, 04:51
support the upstairs.
so many words~it's too hard understanding to me~what's the "spoilers" refers to?
my english is poor and this is my first time to come this forum~
Hi reexample, "spoilers" means some kind of information that could tell you something important about the real (canon) story, and if you don't know about it, you will get "spoiled". That is why people always warn others if they are giving spoilers. I hope that helps.
Welcome to the forum BTW :)
I know nothing about this manga, but looking at the summary by TC, it looks great!
LONEWOLF13
2008-10-23, 07:24
then what about the Armies of the mainland they might have there own powerful
warriors or perhaps even monsters that could best the AB of the North and west
well thats what i think
reexample
2008-10-23, 07:30
hi Yosei.thanks a lot~
i find it in baidu~"spoilers" in chinese means "剧透".
i think claymore is a attractive manga.
Awakened
2008-10-23, 07:39
I think all the factions on the island are weak. They all are looking for some advantage.
G10 needs some more Claymores.
Riful needs Racilia.
The Org have an AO, but she is to risky for any major war
Isley no longer has Priscilla
Isley is the only one that could have taken over the Island if he wanted. At this point he might be just as powerless as everyone else. He had Priscilla on his side, but now Priscilla is in Raki's pocket.
Ok, I take that back. Raki is the most powerful on the Island.:cool:
Edit: I just realized that Alicia and Beth have a major weak point. Yes it’s the soul-link. I always thought that someone has to physically disturb the soul-link. With Galatea on the ghost side, she can interfere with Beth from a distance, no need to get close. That means even if Beth have 45 Claymore surrounding her, their effort in defending her would be meaningless. Yes I know, Alicia would still be a danger to the ghost, but it's better to have Alicia going on a rampage, than to have to fight Alicia and the Org at the same time. The ghost can also go stealth right after disturbing the soul-link, and let Alicia take care of the Org.
hi Yosei.thanks a lot~
i find it in baidu~"spoilers" in chinese means "剧透".
i think claymore is a attractive manga.
Please ask me if you need any help. :) Enjoy your time here. You might like to check out the Image Thread, and also Galateasrbb has made an awesome game on the RPG thread.
I think all the factions on the island are weak. They all are looking for some advantage.
G10 needs some more Claymores.
Riful needs Racilia.
The Org have an AO, but she is to risky for any major war
Isley no longer has Priscilla
Isley is the only one that could have taken over the Island if he wanted. At this point he might be just as powerless as everyone else. He had Priscilla on his side, but now Priscilla is in Raki's pocket.
Ok, I take that back. Raki is the most powerful on the Island.:cool:
Edit: I just realized that Alicia and Beth have a major weak point. Yes it’s the soul-link. I always thought that someone has to physically disturb the soul-link. With Galatea on the ghost side, she can interfere with Beth from a distance, no need to get close. That means even if Beth have 45 Claymore surrounding her, their effort in defending her would be meaningless. Yes I know, Alicia would still be a danger to the ghost, but it's better to have Alicia going on a rampage, than to have to fight Alicia and the Org at the same time. The ghost can also go stealth right after disturbing the soul-link, and let Alicia take care of the Org.
I don't know about Isley necessarily being uninvolved with what is going on right now. I would guess he actually gave Raki permission to take along Priscilla in the hope that she'd run into Riful and end Riful's resistance to his taking over the island. Chances are good that her being next to Raki was permitted on purpose by Isley in the context of some greater overall strategy.
@revan5:
The problem is Isley doesn't want the island in the first place :)
@revan5:
The problem is Isley doesn't want the island in the first place :)
Then what are his motives? :confused:
Negativedark
2008-10-23, 11:30
Right now Isley is the wild card. But there is something I need to bring up about the ghosts. If they release their Youki, how much of an increase to their power will that give them? Also there is another very powerful weapon they can use against the Org. The truth. Just hearing it made Clarice realize that she and Miatia could not return without bieng executed. Even if they don't immedieatly belive it, any Claymore who hears the truth will be confused and demoralized. Worst case scenario for the org will have dessertaion and revolt.
And lets not forget that Claire is the main charecter. I'm willing to bet that at some point she will surpase the abyssal level of power.
Gangsta Spanksta
2008-10-23, 11:50
:D I'm not so sure that the ghosts are the weakest group on the Island, at the moment. They seem to have two people who are at number one level -- not Teresa's. An AO is a number one awakened, and when Clare goes berserk the next time, she should be more powerful than the last time. At the end of this current arc, her power will probably rival Riful's, I think. The Org might not be as powerful as they think they are. They have Alicia and Beth, but what they really want is Clare, IMO. Also don't be so sure about Isley not allying with Riful; that would be a good twist.
Gangsta Spanksta
2008-10-23, 11:54
hi Yosei.thanks a lot~
i find it in baidu~"spoilers" in chinese means "剧透".
i think claymore is a attractive manga.
:D Ah cool, you would be good to have around at the beginning of the month when the Chinese spoilers start coming around.
MisterJB
2008-10-23, 12:00
Then what are his motives? :confused:
i think he just wanted to get the south part of the island if he wanted the whole thing he had plenty of time in those seven years with priscilla noone would be able to stop him
If he just wants the south, he would've taken it 100 years ago.
Of the 3 AO:
_Isley wants something we do not know
_Riful wants security and friends :heh:
_Luciela wants the island (it seems)
See the greedy one is always gone first :D
MisterJB
2008-10-23, 12:35
If he just wants the south, he would've taken it 100 years ago.
Of the 3 AO:
_Isley wants something we do not know
_Riful wants security and friends :heh:
_Luciela wants the island (it seems)
See the greedy one is always gone first :D
we can't really say what luciela wanted we just see her figthing easley and getting killed by raphaela
LONEWOLF13
2008-10-23, 12:38
Right now Isley is the wild card. But there is something I need to bring up about the ghosts. If they release their Youki, how much of an increase to their power will that give them? Also there is another very powerful weapon they can use against the Org. The truth. Just hearing it made Clarice realize that she and Miatia could not return without bieng executed. Even if they don't immedieatly belive it, any Claymore who hears the truth will be confused and demoralized. Worst case scenario for the org will have dessertaion and revolt.
And lets not forget that Claire is the main charecter. I'm willing to bet that at some point she will surpase the abyssal level of power.
But she might loose her sanity and turn into pure bloodlust unless she's able to maintain it just like Isley.
we can't really say what luciela wanted we just see her figthing easley and getting killed by raphaela
I got that from her conversation with her sister, Raph. It looked like she made those things up to beg for her life though, but it should leastly carry some truth. That was why I wrote "it seemed." :)
See below regarding Isley...
I think Isley currently HAS GOT TO BE INVOLVED with sending Raki & Priscilla together into an area clearly near Riful's hideout. I severely doubt Priscilla has the personality to dominate Isley, which most of the time she doesn't, especially in her child-like state. Say what you like, but either Isley is planning on launching a surprise attack via Priscilla against Riful or he's planning on using Priscilla to draw out Riful so that he can administer the coup de grace easily. If you ask me, he's probably NOT in the south right now but silently tracking behind Priscilla and Raki just hoping they manage to draw Riful out of her lair. Plus, I imagine Isley is considering the possibility of Riful having something up here sleeve and wants to act ASAP to stop her.
How about this, if you were Isley, the Ghosts, Riful, or the Organization, what moves would you be making right now against your opposing factions? If I were the Organization right now, I'd be seriously considering bringing over a mainland army or two. If I were the Ghosts I'd be considering how to bring in new Claymores, Riful of course would be doing what she is, and Isley, well, see above for that.
irvinethearcher
2008-10-23, 19:02
It is difficult to tell what would happen.
The only way i see the other claymores of the org(except rachel and audrey perhaps) being a menace are yoki pills. IMO clare or miria is probably be able to beat all claymores of the org on her own exceptions are alicia and beth. But on the pills they're more dangerous and capricious because they can do sneak attacks. IMO the org now tends to that strategy.
The main battle will be decided between miria, clare, helen, deneve, isley, riful, raciella, alicia, beth and "the thing" ;)
we don't know how strong raciella will be(probably less strong than priscilla but stronger than the rest but even that will be uncertain). All will depend on the alliances the protagonists will choose and the order they fight each other.
MIata and clarice are an uncertain factor too, If clarice will die miata will probably awaken and we then have a forth AO. So miata and clarice shouldn't fight and hide as well.
The humans should hide. They can't do anything in this war but die in vane.
It is difficult to tell what would happen.
The only way i see the other claymores of the org(except rachel and audrey perhaps) being a menace are yoki pills. IMO clare or miria is probably be able to beat all claymores of the org on her own exceptions are alicia and beth. But on the pills they're more dangerous and capricious because they can do sneak attacks. IMO the org now tends to that strategy.
The main battle will be decided between miria, clare, helen, deneve, isley, riful, raciella, alicia, beth and "the thing" ;)
we don't know how strong raciella will be(probably less strong than priscilla but stronger than the rest but even that will be uncertain). All will depend on the alliances the protagonists will choose and the order they fight each other.
MIata and clarice are an uncertain factor too, If clarice will die miata will probably awaken and we then have a forth AO. So miata and clarice shouldn't fight and hide as well.
The humans should hide. They can't do anything in this war but die in vane.
Sure they might be more dangerous with regards to sneak attacks, but the disadvantage is that putting all of the Organization's claymores on youki suppressant pills would leave the Organization dangerously blind to the movement of the Abyssal Ones. Not something you want when your "Eye" has just been captured and the Ghosts have two "Eyes" of their own to watch the situation.
In addition it also leaves them more vulnerable in regular fights with Yoma & Awakened Beings, as evidenced in the most recent chapter. I would bet that youki pills is a tactic only of slight worth, and even then only against the Ghosts.
Captain Yoruichi
2008-10-24, 00:48
See below regarding Isley...
I think Isley currently HAS GOT TO BE INVOLVED with sending Raki & Priscilla together into an area clearly near Riful's hideout. I severely doubt Priscilla has the personality to dominate Isley, which most of the time she doesn't, especially in her child-like state. Say what you like, but either Isley is planning on launching a surprise attack via Priscilla against Riful or he's planning on using Priscilla to draw out Riful so that he can administer the coup de grace easily. If you ask me, he's probably NOT in the south right now but silently tracking behind Priscilla and Raki just hoping they manage to draw Riful out of her lair. Plus, I imagine Isley is considering the possibility of Riful having something up here sleeve and wants to act ASAP to stop her.
What do you think are the chances of this idea, then?
What if Isley sent Priscilla over Riful's way, hoping that Riful and Priscilla would fight and kill each other while Priscilla is in her current weakened state? Then he would reign supreme (or so he thinks).
evil_kenshin
2008-10-24, 04:02
What do you think are the chances of this idea, then?
What if Isley sent Priscilla over Riful's way, hoping that Riful and Priscilla would fight and kill each other while Priscilla is in her current weakened state? Then he would reign supreme (or so he thinks).
prehaps ,
He may know of Alicia's existance now (it was debatable if he knew before) and that if he risks himself in a battle, even if he won; this time he won't have sacrificial pieces to delay the arrival of Alicia.
For some reason, the discussion seems to have switched to Isley's role in the "Island War". Maybe a quick summary of the Isley Theories proposed by my fellow forum members is in order:
1. Active Involvement (Captain Yourichi)
Which states that Isley has a controlling hand behind everything, specifically Raki & Priscilla, putting them out as pawns in a large territorial game. This would mean several things: that Raki owes his freedom to Isley, Priscilla is (as she always has been) a tool of a greater power & the purpose of Priscilla's existence thus far is to offset the seemingly bipolar balance of power provided by Riful.
2. Passive Involvement (revan5)
Like above, Isley's hand is playing into Raki & Priscilla's presence. Likewise, he has a purpose for them. Likewise again, he is using them for some reason related to the "Island War. This would mean, however, that underneath the facade of Raki/ Priscilla is something which has yet to be revealed. It might also mean that the Isley-Raki-Priscilla triangle is not so simple, since there is a possibility of Raki & Priscilla not knowing that purpose either.
3. Self-Interest (?) (evil_kenshin)
Again, this assumes that he has a stake in the "Island War" in the first place. Only that he considers the Organization - as embodied by Alicia - as a greater threat than Riful.
4. Disengagement (iLney)
Which sticks up like a sore thumb because it suggests that Isley couldn't care less about whatever transpires between the parties in the "Island War".
Ok. I hope I did justice to everyone's explanations. So let me propose an Isley Theory #5:
5. Selective Interest
Which would be looking at Isley's character. In the canon, Isley for some reason is interested in the South. There's no apparent reason beyond the harsh weather of the North for this interest. He willingly engages Luciela in battle & when Riful attempts to finish him off, Priscilla is his bulletproof vest.
He has vested interest in Raki for he seems to have some control over Priscilla. But don't forget that Raki - too - has a vested interest in Priscilla. And by inference, because Raki knows Priscilla is an AB, he probably knows who Isley's state (and possibly his intentions too). Which means that for his current freedom, Isley either let Raki & Priscilla go, or Raki had to win his freedom.
Therefore, if either of the above is true, it means Isley is firstly weakened without Priscilla, and secondly probably thinks he is powerful enough for now to go on alone. His absence so far is indicative of both his limited vulnerability & the simple fact that the current story (focused on Clare & Raki getting closer & closer) has no need to show his scheming.
He probably has some interest in seeing an "Island War" occur: as a disengaged party, he stands to profit most from open warfare among Riful, the Organization & the Ghosts. But he probably does not care very much about the Organization, being factually the oldest member in existence thus far. And he probably does not need to fear the Ghosts, because he has no need for friends like Riful & neither side will want anything to do with each other. Hence, his greatest rival still is Riful. But not in terms of territory, but more for survival.
An aside: it's possible, of course, that he's already dead. But that we can leave for someone else to pick up :)
Gangsta Spanksta
2008-10-24, 10:45
For some reason, the discussion seems to have switched to Isley's role in the "Island War". Maybe a quick summary of the Isley Theories proposed by my fellow forum members is in order:
1. Active Involvement (Captain Yourichi)
Which states that Isley has a controlling hand behind everything, specifically Raki & Priscilla, putting them out as pawns in a large territorial game. This would mean several things: that Raki owes his freedom to Isley, Priscilla is (as she always has been) a tool of a greater power & the purpose of Priscilla's existence thus far is to offset the seemingly bipolar balance of power provided by Riful.
2. Passive Involvement (revan5)
Like above, Isley's hand is playing into Raki & Priscilla's presence. Likewise, he has a purpose for them. Likewise again, he is using them for some reason related to the "Island War. This would mean, however, that underneath the facade of Raki/ Priscilla is something which has yet to be revealed. It might also mean that the Isley-Raki-Priscilla triangle is not so simple, since there is a possibility of Raki & Priscilla not knowing that purpose either.
3. Self-Interest (?) (evil_kenshin)
Again, this assumes that he has a stake in the "Island War" in the first place. Only that he considers the Organization - as embodied by Alicia - as a greater threat than Riful.
4. Disengagement (iLney)
Which sticks up like a sore thumb because it suggests that Isley couldn't care less about whatever transpires between the parties in the "Island War".
Ok. I hope I did justice to everyone's explanations. So let me propose an Isley Theory #5:
5. Selective Interest
Which would be looking at Isley's character. In the canon, Isley for some reason is interested in the South. There's no apparent reason beyond the harsh weather of the North for this interest. He willingly engages Luciela in battle & when Riful attempts to finish him off, Priscilla is his bulletproof vest.
He has vested interest in Raki for he seems to have some control over Priscilla. But don't forget that Raki - too - has a vested interest in Priscilla. And by inference, because Raki knows Priscilla is an AB, he probably knows who Isley's state (and possibly his intentions too). Which means that for his current freedom, Isley either let Raki & Priscilla go, or Raki had to win his freedom.
Therefore, if either of the above is true, it means Isley is firstly weakened without Priscilla, and secondly probably thinks he is powerful enough for now to go on alone. His absence so far is indicative of both his limited vulnerability & the simple fact that the current story (focused on Clare & Raki getting closer & closer) has no need to show his scheming.
He probably has some interest in seeing an "Island War" occur: as a disengaged party, he stands to profit most from open warfare among Riful, the Organization & the Ghosts. But he probably does not care very much about the Organization, being factually the oldest member in existence thus far. And he probably does not need to fear the Ghosts, because he has no need for friends like Riful & neither side will want anything to do with each other. Hence, his greatest rival still is Riful. But not in terms of territory, but more for survival.
An aside: it's possible, of course, that he's already dead. But that we can leave for someone else to pick up :)
:D
I have my own theory:
After many, many decades in the cold, barren, snow-covered north with only his male Awaken Beings as company, while finally having gotten rid of that bossy Lolita with a few screws loose, Isley finally arrives in the south -- the land of the female awakened, the holy land -- singing an old Beastie Boys tune in his head.
Girls - all I really want is girls
And in the morning it's girls
Cause in the evening it's girls
I like the way that they walk
And it's chill to hear them talk
And I can always make them smile
From White Castle to the Nile
...
Girls - to do the dishes
Girls - to clean up my room
Girls - to do the laundry
Girls - and in the bathroom
Girls - that's all I really want is girls
Two at a time - I want girls
With new wave hairdos - I want girls
I ought to whip out my - girls, girls, girls, girls, girls!
:heh:
:D
I have my own theory:
After many, many decades in the cold, barren, snow-covered north with only his male Awaken Beings as company, while finally having gotten rid of that bossy Lolita with a few screws loose, Isley finally arrives in the south -- the land of the female awakened, the holy land -- singing an old Beastie Boys tune in his head.
Girls - all I really want is girls
And in the morning it's girls
Cause in the evening it's girls
I like the way that they walk
And it's chill to hear them talk
And I can always make them smile
From White Castle to the Nile
...
Girls - to do the dishes
Girls - to clean up my room
Girls - to do the laundry
Girls - and in the bathroom
Girls - that's all I really want is girls
Two at a time - I want girls
With new wave hairdos - I want girls
I ought to whip out my - girls, girls, girls, girls, girls!
:heh:
Now that would really make Isley the "Pretty boy" that Luciella referred to him as.
The big issue right now is what is about to happen. Riful is about to awaken another Abyssal-level being, and one possibly stronger than herself. This of course will cause some level of utter chaos in the Island War beginning, wrecking the Ghosts' and Organization's best-laid plans. However it remains to be seen if it will destroy Isley's plans.
He has (probably) sent Raki & Priscilla into what is known Riful territory. Should Priscilla face off with the two Abyssal ones resulting from the awakening, it might be enough to endanger her life very badly. Obviously, this is not something Isley wants. However, if Priscilla is strong enough to weaken them awhile, it may be that he (since it will be impossible for him not to notice an awakening of that magnitude) will swoop in to finish them off. Where is Alicia during this time? Probably in reserve, since she is the only thing the Organization has (that we know of) to save their behinds. Thus she'll mainly be used in purely defensive actions.
As for Claire's group, I forsee them picking up Renee and Raki, and having a confrontation with Priscilla possibly broken up by Raki. What happens after that I have no idea. However, should they all survive, or Claire/Renee survive, they'll probably head north to grab a new sword for Renee, as she is missing her current, handle-less sword (see end of chapter 81). They might even encounter Number 7 and her team should that occur, leading to a very interesting situation.
That brings us to Helen & Deneve. The Organization is now aware of the presence of unknown warriors capable of robbing an Abyssal One of her prey. This may cause them to try to set up traps or searches for them, with youki suppressant using teams lying in wait for Helen & Deneve.
Now then, that is not to say that these two will be in great danger at first. They might encounter Claymore #9 (wouldn't that be entertaining?) and then suddenly be thrust into a serious situation with the arrival of higher-up Claymores like Audrey, Rachel and possibly Beth.
You'd think this would be a serious danger to the Ghosts, and it is. BUT...the one side effect of being on youki suppressants is the inability to sense it or use it. Thus the uninhibited Helen & Deneve will be fairly dangerous opponents, even if they are likely wildly outmatched by someone like Beth. Their chances of meeting Alicia are small, but rise significantly if they encounter Beth.
You might think they'd be in real trouble should this happen, however they have one backup no matter what happens. They can release their Youki, which would help them fight. It would also however alert Miria, Miata, Clarice, Galatea & Tabitha of the situation, thus bringing about perhaps the first major battle of the Ghosts & Organization. Now who wouldn't want to see that? I predict just such an outcome of the Helen/Deneve hometown arc.
Gangsta Spanksta
2008-10-24, 12:39
Next week, when Duff finds a way to rid himself of his Lolita: Isley and Duff's Excellent Addventure!
chibamonster
2008-10-24, 14:27
This is a manga thread right? Then there should be no need for spoiler tags.
Sordes Pilosus
2008-10-25, 08:52
Hmm i just made a post in the Chapter 84 Thread regarding Racilla awakening. Anyone mind reading it over and seing if it has relevance for this thread aswell ? Dont want to create any double posts or simular by posting thories based around that post unless it has relevance.
MisterJB
2008-10-25, 10:53
the Organization and iesley are problably the most powerful factions in the island rigth now.
the organization has Alicia along with more than 40 claymores the only problem is that we don't know who is stronger Alicia or Priscilla.
if Priscilla could kill Alicia then all the other claymores would be uselless against iesley
Gangsta Spanksta
2008-10-25, 12:24
I don't think the organization is one of the two strongest factions on the island at all. I think Alicia is overrated; she is a flawed controlled abyssal. She might be as powerful as Riful, but once you take out Beth, while she will still be as power he allegiance will change to her own self-centered purposes, as is what happens to all awakened beings, minus Priscilla who is an exception. I am also one of those who believes that this current generation is weaker than the previous ones. I think that the organization is short sighted and has put all its eggs in one basket with Alicia, and is neglecting the overall strength of the other 45 Claymores, since they think that Alicia is the right direction for their research, and the other projects are less significant now. On the whole, if you include more than just the island, the organization power far exceeds any of the Abyssals or ghosts, but we are talking about the island.
I don't consider Priscilla as being part of Iesley faction anymore, so his faction strength is unknown at this time.
Right now I would rate 'em like this:
1) Priscilla
2) Riful/Iesley
3) Ghosts
4) The Org. (Alicia is as strong as the Abyssals, but she is flawed when it comes to being controlled.
I think the ghosts are going to make a jump in power soon. They have two members who are at number one levels, meaning that they would be Abyssal if awakened. The organization has Alicia, but what they really want is something like Clare. I think she will fight riful soon, and during the battle will find a way to exceed Riful's strength.
1) Priscilla
2) The Ghosts (Clare reaching a new power)
3) Riful/Iseley
4) The Org.
But in that battle, we have a new Abyssal being created. She will take either the number 1 or number 2 slots, and will either be part of Riful's faction or her own.
I just see Alicia as being a liability to the org in a battle of heavy hitters instead of an advantage. Once someone figures out her weakspot, Beth, then she will become her own faction, just like the ABs the org uses to fight the DoD.
I don't think the organization is one of the two strongest factions on the island at all. I think Alicia is overrated; she is a flawed controlled abyssal. She might be as powerful as Riful, but once you take out Beth, while she will still be as power he allegiance will change to her own self-centered purposes, as is what happens to all awakened beings, minus Priscilla who is an exception. I am also one of those who believes that this current generation is weaker than the previous ones. I think that the organization is short sighted and has put all its eggs in one basket with Alicia, and is neglecting the overall strength of the other 45 Claymores, since they think that Alicia is the right direction for their research, and the other projects are less significant now. On the whole, if you include more than just the island, the organization power far exceeds any of the Abyssals or ghosts, but we are talking about the island.
I don't consider Priscilla as being part of Iesley faction anymore, so his faction strength is unknown at this time.
Right now I would rate 'em like this:
1) Priscilla
2) Riful/Iesley
3) Ghosts
4) The Org. (Alicia is as strong as the Abyssals, but she is flawed when it comes to being controlled.
I think the ghosts are going to make a jump in power soon. They have two members who are at number one levels, meaning that they would be Abyssal if awakened. The organization has Alicia, but what they really want is something like Clare. I think she will fight riful soon, and during the battle will find a way to exceed Riful's strength.
1) Priscilla
2) The Ghosts (Clare reaching a new power)
3) Riful/Iseley
4) The Org.
But in that battle, we have a new Abyssal being created. She will take either the number 1 or number 2 slots, and will either be part of Riful's faction or her own.
I just see Alicia as being a liability to the org in a battle of heavy hitters instead of an advantage. Once someone figures out her weakspot, Beth, then she will become her own faction, just like the ABs the org uses to fight the DoD.
Yeah, but nobody's ever seen Beth fight right? You never know, they could be both like Theresa-strong as hell but with one just able to do a controlled Abyssal-level awakening. If she is at a really high level like that (and since they used the same yoma to make her a claymore as her sister, we have to assume she must be), then she should have no problems fighting. Rather the problem seems to be can she keep Alicia's soul human while fighting off the onslaught the Ghosts/Abyssals may launch her way during battle?
KillerYomaFromSpace
2008-10-25, 18:27
Yeah, but nobody's ever seen Beth fight right? You never know, they could be both like Theresa-strong as hell but with one just able to do a controlled Abyssal-level awakening. If she is at a really high level like that (and since they used the same yoma to make her a claymore as her sister, we have to assume she must be), then she should have no problems fighting. Rather the problem seems to be can she keep Alicia's soul human while fighting off the onslaught the Ghosts/Abyssals may launch her way during battle?
I think the attack of both sisters without using the awakening trick should be scary enough
I think the attack of both sisters without using the awakening trick should be scary enough
Yeah it should be, but the question ought to be is it "scary enough" to make the Ghosts not attempt to take down the Organization? With so many single-digit level fighters amongst the Ghosts, along with Galatea, Miata (who has the potential to be number one ABOVE Alicia), Claire & Miria, do you really think the Ghosts are lacking fighters who could prove severe hazards to both sisters?
My theory is that we're likely to see both sisters or just Beth in the coming Helen/Deneve arc. Without Claire I rather doubt they'll be fighting to take the sisters out should they encounter them, but I'm sure Miria and her team of five reserve fighters will prove more than capable in rescuing Helen/Deneve from whatever trouble they are guaranteed to get themselves into.
That isn't to say either is a bad fighter. On the contrary, I think they could prove a match or more for Numbers 3 & 5. The problem is if they run into either of the top two! Based on my intuition of claymore plot & there penchant for trouble, I'm putting the likelihood on that at better than 50%.
Gangsta Spanksta
2008-10-25, 18:46
I'm sort of under the impression that Beth is vulnerable when Alicia goes abyssal. I don't think she can fight, when her sister awakens, or if she does than Alicia loses her humanity. The whole thing is flawed, and works good if she is fighting regular claymores or regular ABs, but against Riful and all her ribbons, or Iesley and his arrows, Beth is probably history. Those two are too clever not to figure out the gimmick, and Riful like Ophelia is good at analyzing her opponents moves
MisterJB
2008-10-25, 18:53
when the Organization tries to kill an Abissal one they will probrably have the others 40 claymore protecting Beth while Alicia figths
but that take us to a situation similar to the one Easley faced against Luciela
even by example if Alicia killed Riful then Easley would just appear and finish her off while she was very tired and the 40 claymores wouldn't have a chance against him
I'm sort of under the impression that Beth is vulnerable when Alicia goes abyssal. I don't think she can fight, when her sister awakens, or if she does than Alicia loses her humanity. The whole thing is flawed, and works good if she is fighting regular claymores or regular ABs, but against Riful and all her ribbons, or Iesley and his arrows, Beth is probably history. Those two are too clever not to figure out the gimmick, and Riful like Ophelia is good at analyzing her opponents moves
This is why I'm pretty certain though the Ghosts are fearful of facing Alicia in combat, they know they stand a decent chance of taking out Beth & loosing a new, mostly brainless Abyssal upon the island, which should prove easier to kill. Either that or the Organization attempts to protect Beth with every other Claymore that they have.
I imagine a battle between the Ghosts & Organization this way. Alicia awakens, and Claire & Miria tag-team her, attempting to both keep her contained while trying trying to kill her & simultaneously survive.
The others, led by Deneve & Galatea, pinpoint Beth's location and get smacked into a giant battle with the remaining high level Claymores. I also think that some more high level Claymores will desert by this time (namely Renee & one or two other Single Digits) and be fighting alongside them.
Sometime during the battle Claire or Miria are forced to do a controlled awakening of their limbs and go over their limits. Thus the Organization finds out they're fighting two very SPECIAL people...ones that they would absolutely love to capture.
So sure, maybe they lose that battle, but round two might be when they bring in a mainland army! Of the 3 other factions on the island, only the Ghosts have the standing to lead an opposing army (namely the armed forces of Rabona). Most of the Abyssal Ones hate groups, and the Organization has been systematically wiping out Awakened ones for years now, no doubt leading to a shortage of possible awakened ones for either Abyssal faction to gather an army with.
KillerYomaFromSpace
2008-10-25, 19:03
Yeah it should be, but the question ought to be is it "scary enough" to make the Ghosts not attempt to take down the Organization?
I didn't say that, I should have used the word dangerous instead of scary, the ghosts are ready to sacrifice themselves, so fear is not a factor here
MisterJB
2008-10-25, 19:05
This is why I'm pretty certain though the Ghosts are fearful of facing Alicia in combat, they know they stand a decent chance of taking out Beth & loosing a new, mostly brainless Abyssal upon the island, which should prove easier to kill. Either that or the Organization attempts to protect Beth with every other Claymore that they have.
I imagine a battle between the Ghosts & Organization this way. Alicia awakens, and Claire & Miria tag-team her, attempting to both keep her contained while trying trying to kill her & simultaneously survive.
The others, led by Deneve & Galatea, pinpoint Beth's location and get smacked into a giant battle with the remaining high level Claymores. I also think that some more high level Claymores will desert by this time (namely Renee & one or two other Single Digits) and be fighting alongside them.
Sometime during the battle Claire or Miria are forced to do a controlled awakening of their limbs and go over their limits. Thus the Organization finds out they're fighting two very SPECIAL people...ones that they would absolutely love to capture.
So sure, maybe they lose that battle, but round two might be when they bring in a mainland army! Of the 3 other factions on the island, only the Ghosts have the standing to lead an opposing army (namely the armed forces of Rabona). Most of the Abyssal Ones hate groups, and the Organization has been systematically wiping out Awakened ones for years now, no doubt leading to a shortage of possible awakened ones for either Abyssal faction to gather an army with.
i don't see the soldiers of rabona being brave enough to figth against claymore only galk and sid
I didn't say that, I should have used the word dangerous instead of scary, the ghosts are ready to sacrifice themselves, so fear is not a factor here
You've got that right. Do you remember when Claire was facing off with Riful? When she initially sensed Riful she was apprehensive, but she got as calm as can be when less than 20 meters from an Abyssal! Makes you think the Ghosts are rather better at sensing what they're facing, as Claire seemed to know exactly what attack she'd be facing when she fled. Though it was a surprise rescue, being able to rescue 4 Claymores, two of them impaled upon an Abyssal One's body, can only be thought of as impressive. Especially since none of them received so much as a scratch from "mighty" Riful.
i don't see the soldiers of rabona being brave enough to figth against claymore only galk and sid
Oh, who said anything about them having to fight Claymores at that point in time? Did I not say they'd likely be facing off with part of the big mainland army of the Organization? That clearly is not entirely made up of "special warriors" that awaken, meaning that they should have significant use for Rabona's army in the story. Sure there might be some Claymores left, but I got a feeling Rabona will play a key role later on in this story.
Look, for the Ghosts to wind up at a heavily fortified city with its own army & antipathy to the Organization just seems far too good not to be put to use in this story. If the Ghosts figure out the advantages of turning the humans against the Organization, then starting with Rabona is a good idea. The only real issue is when it would happen. Clearly this would be of little use if they were just fighting the Abyssals. However, should the Organization call for backup, then having your own "neighborhood" army isn't such a bad thing, eh?
MisterJB
2008-10-25, 19:16
Oh, who said anything about them having to fight Claymores at that point in time? Did I not say they'd likely be facing off with part of the big mainland army of the Organization? That clearly is not entirely made up of "special warriors" that awaken, meaning that they should have significant use for Rabona's army in the story. Sure there might be some Claymores left, but I got a feeling Rabona will play a key role later on in this story.
Look, for the Ghosts to wind up at a heavily fortified city with its own army & antipathy to the Organization just seems far too good not to be put to use in this story. If the Ghosts figure out the advantages of turning the humans against the Organization, then starting with Rabona is a good idea. The only real issue is when it would happen. Clearly this would be of little use if they were just fighting the Abyssals. However, should the Organization call for backup, then having your own "neighborhood" army isn't such a bad thing, eh?
i misuderstood you
i misuderstood you
That's alright. Anyways, does anyone have an opinion on when we'll see the first big fight? One would think it would be Riful vs. the newly Awakened Abyssal One (should that happen), and then perhaps the Ghosts vs. Dauf. I'm hoping it will be so at least.
Any predictions on what matchups we'll see shortly different from this? Seems to me the plot is pretty open-ended right now.
yezhanquan
2008-10-25, 22:10
If Yagi-sensei goes with the "kicking iron board" drift, then the sisters vs. Riful is on the cards.
Negativedark
2008-10-25, 22:27
Hey, I'm going to go out on a limb here, but you know what, this could happen with Claire...
Claire "You've killed so many already! And now Yuma!?! AND NOW YUMA!!"
lightning crackles around Claire and her hair gets all spikey...
Riful "W-What are you?"
Claire "Don't you know? I am the light in the dark. The hope of a world crying out in fear. Freind to good, doom to evil. I AM A SUPER CLAYMORE! I AM A SUPER CLAYMORE!"
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...............................................
Well not exactly like that, but if anyone is going to do a controled awakening, or something different that surpasess awakening it's going to be Claire.
Hey, I'm going to go out on a limb here, but you know what, this could happen with Claire...
Claire "You've killed so many already! And now Yuma!?! AND NOW YUMA!!"
lightning crackles around Claire and her hair gets all spikey...
Riful "W-What are you?"
Claire "Don't you know? I am the light in the dark. The hope of a world crying out in fear. Freind to good, doom to evil. I AM A SUPER CLAYMORE! I AM A SUPER CLAYMORE!"
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...............................................
Well not exactly like that, but if anyone is going to do a controled awakening, or something different that surpasess awakening it's going to be Claire.
Now that would be awesome. So if I get this straight, essentially Riful finds out that Claire might be an Abyssal-level opponent while Claire gets pissed, right? I will say this, she's already gotten way stronger than before, and now has two Awakened Number #2 kills to her credit. She killed Rigardo (though paid a heavy price for it) and with help from Miria/other Ghosts took out Agatha in nearly an instant. Given 7 years, you'd have to think her partial awakening of limbs now would be on an another, completely devastating order of lethality.
So essentially, if Claire & Miria were to awaken their limbs now, would they be the equivalent of Abyssal or near-Abyssal Ones? Add in Miata, Helen, Deneve & the others and you've got one dangerous group. Still, killing an Abyssal One is unlikely to prove easy for Claire or Miria. I expect there will be a heavy price to pay for each of those kinds of victories.
Now that would be awesome...
I hope it was sarcasm...
I hope it was sarcasm...
Oh man, nailed again. Still, a scene in which Claire goes beserk on Riful would be pretty entertaining, even if it weren't like how it was comically portrayed.
I think we'd all love to see what Claire is really capable of against an Abyssal-level opponent.
Gangsta Spanksta
2008-10-26, 02:35
Hey, I'm going to go out on a limb here, but you know what, this could happen with Claire...
Claire "You've killed so many already! And now Yuma!?! AND NOW YUMA!!"
lightning crackles around Claire and her hair gets all spikey...
Riful "W-What are you?"
Claire "Don't you know? I am the light in the dark. The hope of a world crying out in fear. Freind to good, doom to evil. I AM A SUPER CLAYMORE! I AM A SUPER CLAYMORE!"
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...............................................
Well not exactly like that, but if anyone is going to do a controled awakening, or something different that surpasess awakening it's going to be Claire.
Damn :P now clair makes stupid speeches like Sailormoon II_II
Gangsta Spanksta
2008-10-26, 02:46
So essentially, if Claire & Miria were to awaken their limbs now, would they be the equivalent of Abyssal or near-Abyssal Ones? Add in Miata, Helen, Deneve & the others and you've got one dangerous group. Still, killing an Abyssal One is unlikely to prove easy for Claire or Miria. I expect there will be a heavy price to pay for each of those kinds of victories.
I think Claire an Miria if awakened would be on the Abyssal level. I dunno if Miria will ever awaken her limbs like Clare does. She seems to be the cautious type. Miata would be on the Abyssal level since she has the potential to be number 1, it's probably her few screws loose that kept her from that position. I mean here is something to think about: The Alicia/Beth project started in Teresa's time, Miata is from after Clare's time, yet she has the potential to be number 1 given Alicia is the current number 1. That is potential of course, just like Priscilla having the potential to be number one when Teresa was around, doesn't mean that she would ever supplant Teresa.
Also, the next time clare awakens, be it fully or just limbs, I expect it to be different from the last version in looks and functionality.
I personally don't think we'll see another awakening like Claire's in her fight against Rigardo it just won't cut it against an abyssal level opponent there just to powerful to lose to a half hearted awakening, for any of the ghosts to stand a chance I think they would need to go the whole way and achieve the frist fully self controlled awakeings. If that happens I think it could bring the DND and the ORG into the story a lot more as the ghosts would become what the ORG has been working towards for the last century and naturally the DND would be trying to stop them.
Gangsta Spanksta
2008-10-26, 03:23
I personally don't think we'll see another awakening like Claire's in her fight against Rigardo it just won't cut it against an abyssal level opponent there just to powerful to lose to a half hearted awakening, for any of the ghosts to stand a chance I think they would need to go the whole way and achieve the frist fully self controlled awakeings. If that happens I think it could bring the DND and the ORG into the story a lot more as the ghosts would become what the ORG has been working towards for the last century and naturally the DND would be trying to stop them.
First off, you use the wrong term to describe a controlled awakening of a Claymore's limbs. There was nothing half hearted about Clare's controlled awakening of her limbs. It was an all out battle to the death that she took serious. Your second term also doesn't mean what you are trying to say. A fully self controlled awakening can be awakening just a pinkie to awakening the entire body minus the mind, which would be the point the human mind loses control to the 'awakened' mind. Anyway, I don't see much difference from awakening all her limbs to awakening her whole body as far as the technique goes. What Clare did was combine what she learned from the quick sword from what she saw Jean doing -- keeping her mind in a fully awakened body -- to awaken her limbs and stay in control. The next time, she probably will be better at it than her first try. The more you awaken, the more control you must have. It's all a matter of practice and building the control. I think we will probably see a fully awakened clare. I don't know if Clare will fight her last battle in that state though, because I know a little bit about writing, and how authors think. You have two polar opposites here. One an Abyssal creature like Priscilla and then on the other hand you have Teresa of the Faint Smile who never uglies her face in combat. That's two paths that Clare can travel down of. On one hand you have Humanity and on the other hand you have a Demon. Clare's battle in the North is opposite from her battle in the Slashers arc and how Teresa fights. I could see the possible setup right away.
Oh man, nailed again. Still, a scene in which Claire goes beserk on Riful would be pretty entertaining, even if it weren't like how it was comically portrayed.
I think we'd all love to see what Claire is really capable of against an Abyssal-level opponent.
Unless Riful is wrong about everything and fails at life, Clare is no match for any AO even if fully awakened,
Awakened
2008-10-26, 07:28
Clare can be a match for any AO, she just has to know their weakness. Once she knows their weakness, she can configure her body to take advantage of it, just like when she fought Rigaldo.
Negativedark
2008-10-26, 08:20
Damn :P now clair makes stupid speeches like Sailormoon II_II
Son Goku actually.
Anyways while that exact thing won't happen, I wouldn't be surprised if Claire does get to do some sort of transformation at some point. Granted in this series it could be a bit nervewracking, what with the possibility of losing your mind and all, but it might happen.
Awakened
2008-10-26, 09:21
I think Clare will eventually awaken. Everything has been leading up to her awakening as far as am concerned.
We have the Org doing research to get a controllable Ab (Clare is part of that research).
We have Ruble saying that Clare is what the Org wants, but he is hiding her from them.
We have Yagi staking the ghost with three sensing Claymore's possible four (Renee), to give each of the G4 their own personal pull me back if I go out of control.
I think Clare will eventually awaken. Everything has been leading up to her awakening as far as am concerned.
We have the Org doing research to get a controllable Ab (Clare is part of that research).
We have Ruble saying that Clare is what the Org wants, but he is hiding her from them.
We have Yagi staking the ghost with three sensing Claymore's possible four (Renee), to give each of the G4 their own personal pull me back if I go out of control.
I know they have two right now (Tabitha & Galatea), so who's the third that they currently have? Cynthia?
I would have to say, yes, Clare is what the Organization wants, but she isn't exactly going to come willingly. So if you were the Organization, how would you capture somebody of Clare's level? The only way is either with their number one claymore or with an entire army of "special warriors" through armed force means.
The only alternative is they capture Raki and tell her what to do through threats to him. In other words, her love/affection for Raki will be used as her controlling agent.
Anybody else have any theories on how they would attempt to capture the fabulous 4 assuming they find out about partial-awakening?
KillerYomaFromSpace
2008-10-26, 10:19
We have Yagi staking the ghost with three sensing Claymore's possible four (Renee), to give each of the G4 their own personal pull me back if I go out of control.
aaah, I just had a horrible vision... Fully awakened Clare soul linked with the 4 of them
Awakened
2008-10-26, 11:05
I know they have two right now (Tabitha & Galatea), so who's the third that they currently have? Cynthia?
I would have to say, yes, Clare is what the Organization wants, but she isn't exactly going to come willingly. So if you were the Organization, how would you capture somebody of Clare's level? The only way is either with their number one claymore or with an entire army of "special warriors" through armed force means.
The only alternative is they capture Raki and tell her what to do through threats to him. In other words, her love/affection for Raki will be used as her controlling agent.
Anybody else have any theories on how they would attempt to capture the fabulous 4 assuming they find out about partial-awakening?
I was just thinking about that.
If Clare and Co. tries to rescue Renee, there is a chance that Clare might partially awaken. If that happens she will be vulnerable (depleted yoki). All the Org need to do is send in Alicia and Beth to swop her up.
If that happens, there will have to be a rescue Clare arc. Cynthia will use her dog tracking skills to track Alicia and Beth, Uma will run back to Ramona to get help. Galatea will drop her nun outfit and put Clarice and Miata in charge of Ramona defense. Miria's army will get their first chance to show what they can do.
Awakened
2008-10-26, 11:11
aaah, I just had a horrible vision... Fully awakened Clare soul linked with the 4 of them
I think you should get your eyes checked. Your visions are too imaginative.:rolleyes: ->:cool:--:p:D
Galatea will drop her nun outfit
Can't wait to see that happen.:naughty:
Sordes Pilosus
2008-10-26, 12:50
Faction War Summery:
This post is a Summery Based around each Faction currently on the Island and is based on information available up to Chapter 84. Some speculation based on Manga Direction and Likly events is however also included but will be noted and easy to spot. This summery will also use two Distinct stats to mark a Factions Strenght, that is Military Power and War Potensial. Military Power bases itself around how much general strenght a faction has, basicly how much firepower and strenght it has available. War Potensial however determins the potensial to a faction, basicly what options of strategy and methods available to them to fullfill a mission or task. Along with these two a smal summery of Strenghts and Weakness's to a faction will be listed, in some cases there will be alot of missing info like the situation around Isley as he has not been shown after the timeskip, but will instead base itself on his strenghts and the situation known to involve him. The Grades used in Military Power and War Potensial is ranked from F to S, a * behind a stat indicates a note that goes along with the stat and the stat needs to be read with the content of the note in mind.
Listed Factions:
- The Org.
- Riful
- Isley
- Ghosts
- Dragonkin
- Other's
The List above outlines the factions presently involved in the situation on the Island, most will be well aware off all the groups except "Other" that containts Chips that currently cant be placed in a Faction yet but holds posibility to change ballance of power. The questions regarding Irene being alive, Racilla, Pricilla etc belongs under this Other's group. Its just outlined here for the sake of easy understanding since Other's is the last group and some might react to for instance Pricilla not being listed under Isley or Racilla under Riful as of yet. However without further deley here is the first summery:
The Org.
Military Power: S
War Potensial: C
Strenghts: The Organisation's is the faction with the highest degree of Military Power, with a large number of Claymore's, the Ability to create more alongside it being aligned to one of the Main two sides on the Mainland offer's its the broadest and largest amount of Military Power. They also have Alicia completed which makes them able to hold of either Riful or Isley in a 1 vs 1 Situation and the extra Claymore's holds the option of countering this ballance in the Org's Favor.
Weakness: The Organisation however is also the factino with the lowest degree of War Potensial, this is because they have a very broad area they need to protect and Alicia can not be deployed everywhere at a short notice, and in a War with several factions Alica can not be moved offensivly at any time either making the Org take a very deffensive standpoint, normal Claymore's is also generaly weaker then Awakened and no match against Abyssals making the Org the most vulnerable to be "slowly grinded or picked off little by little" in a war. Alicia also has a fatal weakness in her reliance on Beth making any interuption very risky making Alica a risky card if not properly used. Training new Claymore's of a High level also takes quite alot of time, so replacing "strong claymore's" takes time making the Org the most vulnerable out of any faction as a result.
Riful:
Military Power: A
War Potensial: B
Strenghts: Riful has a strong allied in Duph, and together they are capable of doing combat against multiple foes at the same time due to their awakened forms. Riful is also a very active player which is the main reason for her high war potensial. She currently posses's Raciella's remains but the result of that is stil unclear but can drasticly tip things in her Favor making her the strongest Faction if things turns out well.
Weakness: Riful while having a strong allie in Duph she also has her main weakness in him. She is emotionaly attached to a very stupid awakened, this is possible to place Riful in a difficult spot if facing foes on more fronts where herself is forced to fight the strongest oposition. Riful is also overly abisious making her more likly to make mistakes and she has been seen starting to lose her calm that made her very strong in the first part of the manga. Her faction however is also very smal, her need for allies is great but the availability seams limited and she hasent been shown having more forces available making it a Two vs alot situation, making her the most vulnerable to sneak attacks or combat on multiple fronts.
Isley:
Military Power: A*
War Potensial : B*
(Notes: Isley has been seen to be a commander, meaning he is the type to activly gather forces, his hold on Pricilla is also currently unknown drasticly making him a bit unstabil in terms of potensial or posibilities.)
Strenghts: A good commander with a tactical mindframe, seams to be using Pricilla in the first part for his own gains. He is calm and very patient making him unlikly to make foolish moves or risks. The liklyhood of a new while smaler army to support him is also a large posibility with Isley, however fully placing him in the grid is hard before more information about him now after timeskip is revealed.
Weakness: Pricilla, he might be just a General to her and have no ambision of his own. This means he is very vulnerable to Pricillas whims and this might be his downfall. He also is the most passive of all factions, after his advance pretimeskip he seams to have settled down without any large desires to do anything for a while yet. But as about him after timeskip is nonexistant to date accurate information is hard.
Ghosts:
Military Power: B
War Potensial: S
Strenghts: The Ghosts is the group with by far the largest war potensial, likly more then twice as large as any other faction. The reason behind this is their Mobility, unlikle other factions they are free to move around pretty much as they please allowing for covert operations on a grand scale, taking even a Abyssal head in their unaware moment or their strong allies is far from unlikly. They also posess a information advantage regarding other factions. While being able to "spy" on others without being detected they can stage attacks and perform tactics other factions have no chance off.
Weakness: The hard part of the chosts is that their "just Claymore's" and none is currently strong enough even in a group to take down a Abyssal Class oponent, meaning while they are strong in the Sneaky department and hard to take out, they have a very hard time actualy taking out the big foes stil. They are also very vulnerable to losses or injury compared to other factions. Awakeneds Regernate well, Org can replace their Claymore's but replacing members of the Ghosts is much harder, not many will belive the "thruth" about the mainland easily either or wait to listen to the story. Also they have the weakest mentality by wanting to protect as many as possible with their limited resources.
Dragonkin:
Military Power: D
War Potensial: A
Strenghts: Sabotage, the liklyhood of Infiltration within the ranks of the Org and perhaps even the Ghosts is available to them. They also hold the most favorable cards for their own wishes of the whole Island going up in flames as a result of the Org's unsucessfull results. Their basicly the main player and the ones pulling strings as it suits them with the least amount of threat directed against themselves. But since Sabotage can drasticly change ballance of war for either faction (Claymore's defecting) or (Awakens) or simular can cause large changes in power ballances around making their war potensial quite high.
Weakness: Direct Military Power, the ability to direct action is limited. While they likly have perhaps 2 or 3 Claymore's and some other operates their forces are extremly limited and their actual military power aswell. Without sucessfull manipulation of events its little that will go in their favor making them not very much in control of events as they would have liked.
Other's:
Military Power: S*
War Potensial: A
(Notes: With two Abyssal class posibilities up for the taking the warpower could be considered double S, but since this faction aint united as one force but a collective of forces around like random Awakends around etc its not a collective force.)
Strenghts: A few Awakened supporting Riful, or Racillia awakening would change things alot for her, the Ghosts rescuing Racillia and Renee would even bring alot in their favor again. Or what actions Pricilla with Raki will take from now on can change the tide of ballance regardless where they end up. Making the Other's likly a deciding factor in how events will play out.
Weakness: Pricilla havent eaten in ages, and she has always been unstabil making her a strange and difficult card. Racillia can go so many ways if she even will awake is unknown. And as mentioned this is not a collective force, since its not unified alot of it save the big elements in this group will be picked off without doing much good. But its potensial for other groups is quite strong, but its no real faction of its own.
______________________________________
I Hope this post have been interesting to read and usefull for some. Even hope it will help spark some discussions regarding factions or their situation and function as a base for sutch discussions. Anyway hope youve enjoyed reading this post.
- Sordes
Awakened
2008-10-26, 13:39
Faction War Summery:
I Hope this post have been interesting to read and usefull for some. Even hope it will help spark some discussions regarding factions or their situation and function as a base for sutch discussions. Anyway hope youve enjoyed reading this post.
- Sordes
I enjoyed it.:D
Edit: Yagi has given the ghost a priest (healer). They might not beable to come back from the dead, but this will alow them to take a lot of punishment.
Gangsta Spanksta
2008-10-26, 16:08
I enjoyed it.:D
Edit: Yagi has given the ghost a priest (healer). They might not beable to come back from the dead, but this will alow them to take a lot of punishment.
:) Ah priest being healers thats an RPG concept, but well this is a Manga. That's kind of like saying Monks have martial arts abilities just because they appear in the story. ;) So far, the priests have put on bandages the wrong way. :D That is unless you are talking about the 'priest' being a claymore with healing abilities. :d
Awakened
2008-10-26, 17:11
:) Ah priest being healers thats an RPG concept, but well this is a Manga. That's kind of like saying Monks have martial arts abilities just because they appear in the story. ;) So far, the priests have put on bandages the wrong way. :D That is unless you are talking about the 'priest' being a claymore with healing abilities. :d
Am talking about Cynthia or Thabeta, I fogot with one of them can heal.
MisterJB
2008-10-26, 17:12
Am talking about Cynthia or Thabeta, I fogot with one of them can heal.
Cynthia
Tabhita is the "eye" of the Ghosts
One thing I've been wondering is just what the capabilities of an "Eye" is. Sure we know what Galatea & Tabitha's technical abilities are, but can you quantify them?
I say this because we keep listing the "Eyes" as these great advantages and yet we have no idea just what their sensing ranges are nor how big the island is. We know Galatea can pick up on Abyssal-class youki from a very great distance but we've never once had a map with a scale on it. I suppose Yagi does this to keep things fluid for the plot, but still, if we really want to evaluate the Ghosts fabled "Eyes", this would be a good thing to know.
Does anyone else think that perhaps for the Ghosts their "Eyes" will not be as useful as they could be? What I mean is the Ghosts seem to be destined to fight Abyssal Ones...how much could an "Eye" like Tabitha, Renee or Galatea really help (with exception of Alicia)?
Awakened
2008-10-26, 22:49
One thing I've been wondering is just what the capabilities of an "Eye" is. Sure we know what Galatea & Tabitha's technical abilities are, but can you quantify them?
I say this because we keep listing the "Eyes" as these great advantages and yet we have no idea just what their sensing ranges are nor how big the island is. We know Galatea can pick up on Abyssal-class youki from a very great distance but we've never once had a map with a scale on it. I suppose Yagi does this to keep things fluid for the plot, but still, if we really want to evaluate the Ghosts fabled "Eyes", this would be a good thing to know.
Does anyone else think that perhaps for the Ghosts their "Eyes" will not be as useful as they could be? What I mean is the Ghosts seem to be destined to fight Abyssal Ones...how much could an "Eye" like Tabitha, Renee or Galatea really help (with exception of Alicia)?
The eyes have the potential to be the most powerfull Claymores. They can use their powers to overcome many disadvatages. One example, Clare #47 taking on Ophelia #3 I think.
Clare, premptive sencing
Galatea, manipulation
Cynthia, healing
Tabitha?
Renee, ?manipulation
Plus eyes can give you a stratigic advatage.
Faction War Summery:
This post is a Summery Based around each Faction currently on the Island and is based on information available up to Chapter 84. Some speculation based on Manga Direction and Likly events is however also included but will be noted and easy to spot. This summery will also use two Distinct stats to mark a Factions Strenght, that is Military Power and War Potensial. Military Power bases itself around how much general strenght a faction has, basicly how much firepower and strenght it has available. War Potensial however determins the potensial to a faction, basicly what options of strategy and methods available to them to fullfill a mission or task. Along with these two a smal summery of Strenghts and Weakness's to a faction will be listed, in some cases there will be alot of missing info like the situation around Isley as he has not been shown after the timeskip, but will instead base itself on his strenghts and the situation known to involve him. The Grades used in Military Power and War Potensial is ranked from F to S, a * behind a stat indicates a note that goes along with the stat and the stat needs to be read with the content of the note in mind.
Listed Factions:
- The Org.
- Riful
- Isley
- Ghosts
- Dragonkin
- Other's
The List above outlines the factions presently involved in the situation on the Island, most will be well aware off all the groups except "Other" that containts Chips that currently cant be placed in a Faction yet but holds posibility to change ballance of power. The questions regarding Irene being alive, Racilla, Pricilla etc belongs under this Other's group. Its just outlined here for the sake of easy understanding since Other's is the last group and some might react to for instance Pricilla not being listed under Isley or Racilla under Riful as of yet. However without further deley here is the first summery:
The Org.
Military Power: S
War Potensial: C
Strenghts: The Organisation's is the faction with the highest degree of Military Power, with a large number of Claymore's, the Ability to create more alongside it being aligned to one of the Main two sides on the Mainland offer's its the broadest and largest amount of Military Power. They also have Alicia completed which makes them able to hold of either Riful or Isley in a 1 vs 1 Situation and the extra Claymore's holds the option of countering this ballance in the Org's Favor.
Weakness: The Organisation however is also the factino with the lowest degree of War Potensial, this is because they have a very broad area they need to protect and Alicia can not be deployed everywhere at a short notice, and in a War with several factions Alica can not be moved offensivly at any time either making the Org take a very deffensive standpoint, normal Claymore's is also generaly weaker then Awakened and no match against Abyssals making the Org the most vulnerable to be "slowly grinded or picked off little by little" in a war. Alicia also has a fatal weakness in her reliance on Beth making any interuption very risky making Alica a risky card if not properly used. Training new Claymore's of a High level also takes quite alot of time, so replacing "strong claymore's" takes time making the Org the most vulnerable out of any faction as a result.
Riful:
Military Power: A
War Potensial: B
Strenghts: Riful has a strong allied in Duph, and together they are capable of doing combat against multiple foes at the same time due to their awakened forms. Riful is also a very active player which is the main reason for her high war potensial. She currently posses's Raciella's remains but the result of that is stil unclear but can drasticly tip things in her Favor making her the strongest Faction if things turns out well.
Weakness: Riful while having a strong allie in Duph she also has her main weakness in him. She is emotionaly attached to a very stupid awakened, this is possible to place Riful in a difficult spot if facing foes on more fronts where herself is forced to fight the strongest oposition. Riful is also overly abisious making her more likly to make mistakes and she has been seen starting to lose her calm that made her very strong in the first part of the manga. Her faction however is also very smal, her need for allies is great but the availability seams limited and she hasent been shown having more forces available making it a Two vs alot situation, making her the most vulnerable to sneak attacks or combat on multiple fronts.
Isley:
Military Power: A*
War Potensial : B*
(Notes: Isley has been seen to be a commander, meaning he is the type to activly gather forces, his hold on Pricilla is also currently unknown drasticly making him a bit unstabil in terms of potensial or posibilities.)
Strenghts: A good commander with a tactical mindframe, seams to be using Pricilla in the first part for his own gains. He is calm and very patient making him unlikly to make foolish moves or risks. The liklyhood of a new while smaler army to support him is also a large posibility with Isley, however fully placing him in the grid is hard before more information about him now after timeskip is revealed.
Weakness: Pricilla, he might be just a General to her and have no ambision of his own. This means he is very vulnerable to Pricillas whims and this might be his downfall. He also is the most passive of all factions, after his advance pretimeskip he seams to have settled down without any large desires to do anything for a while yet. But as about him after timeskip is nonexistant to date accurate information is hard.
Ghosts:
Military Power: B
War Potensial: S
Strenghts: The Ghosts is the group with by far the largest war potensial, likly more then twice as large as any other faction. The reason behind this is their Mobility, unlikle other factions they are free to move around pretty much as they please allowing for covert operations on a grand scale, taking even a Abyssal head in their unaware moment or their strong allies is far from unlikly. They also posess a information advantage regarding other factions. While being able to "spy" on others without being detected they can stage attacks and perform tactics other factions have no chance off.
Weakness: The hard part of the chosts is that their "just Claymore's" and none is currently strong enough even in a group to take down a Abyssal Class oponent, meaning while they are strong in the Sneaky department and hard to take out, they have a very hard time actualy taking out the big foes stil. They are also very vulnerable to losses or injury compared to other factions. Awakeneds Regernate well, Org can replace their Claymore's but replacing members of the Ghosts is much harder, not many will belive the "thruth" about the mainland easily either or wait to listen to the story. Also they have the weakest mentality by wanting to protect as many as possible with their limited resources.
Dragonkin:
Military Power: D
War Potensial: A
Strenghts: Sabotage, the liklyhood of Infiltration within the ranks of the Org and perhaps even the Ghosts is available to them. They also hold the most favorable cards for their own wishes of the whole Island going up in flames as a result of the Org's unsucessfull results. Their basicly the main player and the ones pulling strings as it suits them with the least amount of threat directed against themselves. But since Sabotage can drasticly change ballance of war for either faction (Claymore's defecting) or (Awakens) or simular can cause large changes in power ballances around making their war potensial quite high.
Weakness: Direct Military Power, the ability to direct action is limited. While they likly have perhaps 2 or 3 Claymore's and some other operates their forces are extremly limited and their actual military power aswell. Without sucessfull manipulation of events its little that will go in their favor making them not very much in control of events as they would have liked.
Other's:
Military Power: S*
War Potensial: A
(Notes: With two Abyssal class posibilities up for the taking the warpower could be considered double S, but since this faction aint united as one force but a collective of forces around like random Awakends around etc its not a collective force.)
Strenghts: A few Awakened supporting Riful, or Racillia awakening would change things alot for her, the Ghosts rescuing Racillia and Renee would even bring alot in their favor again. Or what actions Pricilla with Raki will take from now on can change the tide of ballance regardless where they end up. Making the Other's likly a deciding factor in how events will play out.
Weakness: Pricilla havent eaten in ages, and she has always been unstabil making her a strange and difficult card. Racillia can go so many ways if she even will awake is unknown. And as mentioned this is not a collective force, since its not unified alot of it save the big elements in this group will be picked off without doing much good. But its potensial for other groups is quite strong, but its no real faction of its own.
______________________________________
I Hope this post have been interesting to read and usefull for some. Even hope it will help spark some discussions regarding factions or their situation and function as a base for sutch discussions. Anyway hope youve enjoyed reading this post.
- Sordes
Now that's the kind of devotion and effort I'd love to see from every poster, but I shouldn't get my hopes up!
Now then, you point out some good things here...namely war potential. The Ghosts have 3 individuals clearly with the potential to be #2 level (Claire, having killed two different awakened #2s now, is on track for Abyssal status sometime soon). If the Ghosts get a few more deserting Claymores, particularly any of the single digits, they might just have the equivalent amount of "firepower" of the entire Organization's gang of Claymores, including Alicia & Beth.
All that said, I wanted to flash a couple scenarios out there and see which you guys think most likely regarding the coming arc and the beginning of the Island War...
1) Claire & company rescues Renee BEFORE the awakening is successful, are pursued by Riful & Duff, and eventually wind up meeting Raki & Priscilla just as they have nowhere else left to run...
2) Claire & company rescues Renee right at the moment of awakening, and are pursued by Duff, whom they kill once they get farther away from the two Abyssal Ones fighting it out nearby. Renee tells them where she met Raki & they take off...they happen upon Raki just as the two Abyssal Ones have either made a truce or one has become master over the other and come after the group...
3) Claire and company raid Riful's lair amidst the awakening, drawing her out only for a new Abyssal One stronger than herself to awaken without her nearby. She leaves to confront it, they fight and beat Duff, killing him. Riful & new Abyssal One come after Ghosts for revenge just as they come upon Raki & Priscilla...
Now the next part is key...what happens when they meet Raki & Priscilla?
I) They're under attack from two Abyssal Ones and are rescued by Priscilla, who nearly dies until Isley intervenes...
2) They're under attack from two Abyssal Ones when Priscilla joins the fight, exhausting all sides...Claire waits until the opportune moment to strike when she is...
a) Stopped by Raki, who wants Claire to save Priscilla by making her the first Awakened Being to ever re-gain its human mind, thus becoming a partially awakened one like Claire
b) Stopped by Isley, which forces the Ghosts under her command to leave immediately, with or without Raki...
Well, you get the point. Write out any of your own ideas as to how this is going to play out. Anyways, a lot will be riding on inter-faction relations. Based on Riful's threat of payback on the Ghosts, I have to imagine she'll be coming after Claire & friends after a soon-to-happen intervention. But also based on relations, I'd say there is a strong possibility Raki might tell Priscilla to intervene, bringing about an Awakened Being "battle Royale".
My guess is that either Claire will immediately attempt to cut down Priscilla when she finds her...at which point Priscilla will either save herself or Raki will do it for her...except with Priscilla famished, she starts talking about wanting "guts" right at the inopportune moment...
So now it your turn guys...just what do you forsee happening, why, and how will it affect the outcome of the Island War?
KillerYomaFromSpace
2008-10-27, 22:29
I learned that in Claymore, all predictions and theories are useless, because when you think that all the pieces are in the table, BANG!, Yagi brings in something like Raciella, absolutely nobody could have predicted that.
It's the way Claymore works, and one of the main reasons why I love it so much, it actually manages to surprise me unlike most of other things out there, I like to theorize, try to find out what happen next, and I like even more to be wrong when I do so.
but lets asume that there won't be new stuff, and I'm using what we have right now to speculate about some possible movements in the story
we've got several separated groups right now
-Miria and Thabita in Rabona (waiting for the others, and hopefully having fun ^^) but there is no evidence that they are in the church with the other 3
-Galatea, taking care of Clarice and Miata in the church of Rabona, Miria asked Galatea to protect them and help them with enemy movements, but she didn't tell her to join th crusade (the future of those 3 is a big mistery, like the nature of Miata and Clarice. so, something/someone must get them out of there)
. an event in Rabona is required, maybe a visit from an abyssal (Easley?) or bad news that forces them to move
-Helen and Deneve, aparently the least interesting group of all, may hold surprise. they may be the ones that encounters an abyssal too (Alicia?), or discover someting important and bring back news, they may also get kidnapped by the organization so they find out about partial awakening. forcing Rubel to make a move
-Cynthia, Yuma and Clare seem to be heading for Riful now, a battle that they can't win. I fear that Yuma is going to be the sacrifice.
-Raki and Priscila: they are not far from Riful, so they may be the key for Clare's survival, there is almost no doubt that those will be their allies. I also think that Priscila is meant to fight Raciella
-René: she is not willing to help Riful and she will try to escape or so it seems, and she have to deliver the message to Clare that Raki is looking for her, so Raciella's awakening may be delayed
-Raciella: (this one is problematic):
power level: here is a little problem, in Claymore 1 + 1 is not always 2, if it was that way, then Clare would be Nş1 right since the beginning, but for now, she just shows potential, so Raciella may be weaker than Riful at the beginning, so Riful does not kill her, then she shows her real potential when its already too late for Riful to kill her. o maybe René escapes, and Riful frustrated tries to awaken Raciella on her own, while praying for luck.
alignement: if she is too powerful = Evil (because her opponent would be Priscila), if she is not = may be good
memories: if she remembers everything, she may ally Riful to defeat Easley, (something similar was Luciela's last wish), she could also end up being truly evil and force Riful to be her slave instead of the opposite. if she doesn't remember then anything could happen
. but I think she will remember, and she will be smart, Raphaela is been in the manga for a long time now, and the story of the two sisters has much more develompent than what a powerful brainless minion would deserve.
-Org's Claymores: I think some may switch sides and join the ghosts, except Alicia and Beth
-The organization: if they kidnap Helen and Deneve, (two partially awakened) they may complete their objective or at least find out
-The other faction: if the organization completes their objective, Rubel may be able to call for a huge scale attack on the island to erase everyting before it gets out, bringing in the new race and there may be new future alliances. that will polarize the conflict in 2 huge factions
I think I've written so much that I lost track of it all in all the speculative posibilities spinning around in my head, but I don't feel like deleteing it, I'll just click the "submit Reply" button hoping for it to make any sense =P
Dean_the_Young
2008-10-27, 22:51
Some of you might want to consider each sides objectives. This isn't just a battle to control a small island, after all. In fact, only one side seems outright interested in that.
Consider.
The Organization: really couldn't care less, because their objective is to use this island as a laboratory. As long as they can produce more and better claymores, and possibly even another controllable abyssal one, they come out ahead. Winning the war on the mainland is their goal.
The Ghosts don't care about the land, except in so much that people shouldn't become snack food. They're after the Organization while trying to make sure no Abyssal wins, but they themselves don't want control.
The Dragonkin don't want the island, or else they'd be fighting for it already. As long as the Organization loses, they win. Quite possibly/likely the Dragonkin have their abyssal-level dragons.
The Holy City of Rabona is merely concerned with its own protection. It's questionable if they have the manpower to go a conquering, and even if they did they can't match the upper-tier beasties.
Isley is a mystery, but if he had wanted he likely could have blitzed the rest of the island while he still had Priscilla (assuming he doesn't have her in reach now). But to date, he seems to have been more concerned with smashing any potential team-up that could defeat him.
Riful is the one who seems most concerned with the balance of power and status of lands, and even that is in reaction to Isley's actions. While she certainly seeks to take every advantage, whether it's a matter of power or merely of land remains to be seen.
FateAnomaly
2008-10-28, 05:25
I think in the first place non of the ABs are interested in land. They have no interest in politics, economy or the likes. The top desire is survival and humans are merely food. As long as there is food and nothing is threatening them, they are fine with the situation. So all they need is an area with a population enough to sustain them.
Everything that Riful has done is to survive and not to take over the island. The Isley/Priscilla faction is way stronger than her. The org potential to create more Alicia and Beth is also much too dangerous. Thus she need a strong ally namely Raciela. She will go to war to kill Priscilla and the org but the ghost will probably be safe if they do not provoke her further. Also, i don't think that she really care too much about Dauf. Dauf is like a pet too her. She will protect him but not at the risk of her life. Dauf on the other hand probably worship her.
Isley imo is a true warrior (or knight). He means his word when he pledge allegiance to Priscilla and totally loyal to her even if she is somewhat mentally not quite there. He fought Luciela to pave the way for Priscilla safety at risk to his own life. It didn't really if he won or lost at that matter and he is prepare for it. If he died, Priscilla will definitely kill Luciela. (Priscilla is apparently very attached to her family members) If he won, then all is well.
Currently, i think he is lurking in the background observing the situation to see if there is anything threatening Priscilla. War is unlikely as his faction is apparently the strongest now.
(Or maybe he is retired and own a horse ranch in the south)
The Org is currently still researching the ultimate weapon. For now, they need all the time that they get. They also have the most potential to gain more power with time so rushing into war now is unlikely. Also while everyone else is in the dark (hidden) they alone is in the light (known).
I think that both Alicia and Beth can awaken alternately. If one is weaken, they could probably switch their roles, so it is like fighting 1.5 AO. About attacking Beth instead to break the sole link, it may not exactly be a good idea. It is possible that the sole link work the other way too. A weaken Beth may awaken ending up 2 AO, True they lose their allegiance to the org but whoever did it will probably die.
The ghost main objective ( i think) is revenge on the org. Some probably have other agenda ( i.e. Claire). They have no intention of squaring off with the AOs and are probably weaker even with the 7yrs and cloak. Even if they do win, it is likely some of them will really become ghosts. The ultimate plan will probably involve liberation of the claymores and cleansing the island of yoma and ABs but probably still far in the future. (But being immortal, it doesn't really matter)
The Dragonkin faction is operating undercover here. With no apparent military power on the island, it is unlikely that they will initiate a war. They would try to provoke the other factions to war though. The most likely target would be the ghost and the org since it is unlikely they have access to the AOs.
MisterJB
2008-10-28, 08:55
i think the Organization has already made the ultimate weapon and then they destroyed her
it was called Teresa
she probrably could kill Abyssal Ones like riful or easley with no problems at all
irvinethearcher
2008-10-28, 09:12
Clare can be a match for any AO, she just has to know their weakness. Once she knows their weakness, she can configure her body to take advantage of it, just like when she fought Rigaldo.
There's no proof that clare could do such a thing. It seems more probable that this was her original awakened form. For example look at alicia and beth. Alicia has a special black armor for her awakened form therefore it is allways the same because if it wouldn't why forge an armor for her?
Gangsta Spanksta
2008-10-28, 10:57
i think the Organization has already made the ultimate weapon and then they destroyed her
it was called Teresa
she probrably could kill Abyssal Ones like riful or easley with no problems at all
I mentioned this before -- and I agree with you -- that I foresee two paths for Clare to choose for her final battle in the manga: one the fully awakened abyssal path, two the path where she keeps her humanity and fights like Teresa would have.
Gangsta Spanksta
2008-10-28, 11:04
There's no proof that clare could do such a thing. It seems more probable that this was her original awakened form. For example look at alicia and beth. Alicia has a special black armor for her awakened form therefore it is allways the same because if it wouldn't why forge an armor for her?
I disagree with you wholeheartedly. The proof is simply that Clare chose her awakened form. She wanted single-mindedly more speed, and so awakened customized legs. Also note that we've seen Awakened Beings change their forms, like the former number two that recently got eliminated. She had one awakened form, and then switched to her 'original' awakened form. So that means that there is a possibility for an awakened being to change its awakened form even after it has awakened -- not that all are able to do so.
MisterJB
2008-10-28, 11:21
Clare is probrably going to have as much strength as Teresa in human form
that i disagree with you Tte Awakened form is not chosen by the warrior. it's something natural
and Agatha just covered herself with tentacles
Gangsta Spanksta
2008-10-28, 12:42
Clare is probrably going to have as much strength as Teresa in human form
that i disagree with you Tte Awakened form is not chosen by the warrior. it's something natural
and Agatha just covered herself with tentacles
This has been discussed on this forum before. There are two concepts here: Random Awakenings, On Purpose Awakenings. Previously it has been speculated, that when a Claymore awakens by random chance they tend to be less powerful because they get Random features. However, if a Claymore chooses to awaken, then they are more powerful because, though not on the level as Clare has done so, they have more input -- maybe subconsciously or their current desires -- to effect how they awaken. This all comes from Yagi telling us that the non Random Awakenings tend to be more powerful.
Also there are other examples of post awakening polymorphism, like Ophillia pushing her human side to her tail, making herself into a sort of mermaid like awakened being. As for agatha, she herself said that it was her original form that she was forced to show, her more recent form had non tentical legs to it. It might be that most awakened beings aren't aware of all it is to be awakened.
Awakened
2008-10-28, 18:20
There's no proof that clare could do such a thing. It seems more probable that this was her original awakened form. For example look at alicia and beth. Alicia has a special black armor for her awakened form therefore it is allways the same because if it wouldn't why forge an armor for her?
The first example of shape shifting is Isley, he has one body, but he can change his arms into anything he wants.
We have Clare asking for something and then getting it.
Agatha (the #2 Ab in Ramona) had 3 different shapes, you can argue that is was the same modified, but at the end of the day, she was able to us her body three different ways.
Big Crab like shape
Big human shape
Small human shape, her true shape.
We have that last Ab that Clare and Cynthia killed. She first used an attack similar to Riful. She then went into a mini Agatha shape. And for the ultimate shape shifting she got wings and flu away. The most interesting thing about her is that she was able to separate her body into two. This allows for allot off possibilities, regardless of what her true Ab form is, in theory she could make her lower half into anything she wanted.
It’s all speculation, in the end Yagi can just make Clare Ab form into a single shape. But with all what have happened in the manga, he has allot of flexibility for an awakened Clare.
MisterJB
2008-10-29, 14:52
Maybe some Awakeneds can change their body at will but I think if we see Clare almost Awakening again her form should be similar to the one she had against Rigardo
Maybe some Awakeneds can change their body at will but I think if we see Clare almost Awakening again her form should be similar to the one she had against Rigardo
Yeah, but hopefully on a totally different scale of "Bad-ass". Or sufficiently dangerous looking to give an Abyssal One second thoughts.
irvinethearcher
2008-10-29, 20:17
It was very strong. Her legs were much faster than rigald the speed devil. Clare couldn't control them, that was the problem. The moment she awakened her arms rigardo was a goner.
But perhaps she will "ripen" a bit ;)
evil_kenshin
2008-10-29, 20:21
It was very strong. Her legs were much faster than rigald the speed devil. Clare couldn't control them, that was the problem. The moment she awakened her arms rigardo was a goner.
But perhaps she will "ripen" a bit ;)
To be fair he was only a goner due to losing an arm, if he had both arms attached, then the battle may of resulted in something different.
It was very strong. Her legs were much faster than rigald the speed devil. Clare couldn't control them, that was the problem. The moment she awakened her arms rigardo was a goner.
But perhaps she will "ripen" a bit ;)
Correction...if you go back and read chapter 59 then you'll realize that she DID bring her legs under control. It was only by through doing that that she could take out Rigardo. After all, two awakened arms count for little if you can't get near the guy.
irvinethearcher
2008-10-29, 21:05
As far as i remember she controlled her legs with her arms but i read it again.
But as far as i remember rigardo said the same as i said.
okay - scanning done...
clare awakened her left arm a bit to use it as an anchor to control her legs. This isn't a control someone normaly has over his legs.
Clare did improvise as allways in order to win :)
After she fully awakened her arms rigardo was a goner. Even with both arms he wouldn't stand a chance against 4 limbed awakened clare. She simply would have torn him to lion steaks in millseconds.
But it helped clare that he has only one arm left to awaken her arms and survive until that point - that's 4 sure. There aren't only 2 awakened arms - this is "queen of blades" mode:) Perhaps she could even prolong them
at will like in the anime was shown. There's no awakened nr. 2 on earth who could last out long against this. Even with her poor control search and destroy would probably be enough to shred someone lik agatha into little pieces in a matter
of seconds with this. What i originally intended to say was that clare's 4 limbed awakening IS actually very strong if she would be able to control her arms and legs normally.
As far as i remember she controlled her legs with her arms but i read it again.
But as far as i remember rigardo said the same as i said.
okay - scanning done...
clare awakened her left arm a bit to use it as an anchor to control her legs. This isn't a control someone normaly has over his legs.
Clare did improvise as allways in order to win :)
After she fully awakened her arms rigardo was a goner. Even with both arms he wouldn't stand a chance against 4 limbed awakened clare. She simply would have torn him to lion steaks in millseconds.
But it helped clare that he has only one arm left to awaken her arms and survive until that point - that's 4 sure. There aren't only 2 awakened arms - this is "queen of blades" mode:) Perhaps she could even prolong them
at will like in the anime was shown. There's no awakened nr. 2 on earth who could last out long against this. Even with her poor control search and destroy would probably be enough to shred someone lik agatha into little pieces in a matter
of seconds with this. What i originally intended to say was that clare's 4 limbed awakening IS actually very strong if she would be able to control her arms and legs normally.
The key question for the Island War thread has to be whether it'll be enough...enough to take down an Abyssal One without Claire awakening all the way and losing her mind herself? She can kill awakened number 2s, so even if an Abyssal is considerably more powerful, Claire should stand a fighting chance with all four limbs awakened.
Gangsta Spanksta
2008-10-30, 01:17
Maybe some Awakeneds can change their body at will but I think if we see Clare almost Awakening again her form should be similar to the one she had against Rigardo
My instincts tell me it will be different. At least for a final awakening, the one that fought Rigardo isn't spectacular enough for my standards. :D Clares final awakened form should make people gasp.
irvinethearcher
2008-10-30, 11:44
Claire should stand a fighting chance with all four limbs awakened.
If she is able to control her legs and arms in an normal way she probably would stand more than a chance. Rigardo said that isley is faster despite his huge frame of motion but if he would have the speed as clare's legs have he had probably said that isley is waayyyy more faster than him. But this is spekulation. IMO isley has not the speed clare had with her legs. rigardo also tried to fight isley so he hoped he could beat him somehow. therefore the speed gap between those two shouldn't be that large. But again, only spekulation. And besides. Isley isn't probably the most dangerous enemy clare will have to face. There is raciella and priscilla which are probably way more stronger than isley or riful. There are the dragon kin and there is rubel. Perhaps rubel can fight too and if he can i bet it will be in some kind of nasty way.
Sordes Pilosus
2008-10-30, 11:47
Well Based on Shape Clare would have a chance against Riful and Alica in her "Blade Queen Mode", but Isley can fight from a distance so its a little harder. Even if Clare can get to a spot in a instant if she "aims" a little first. Well it will be interesting to see whats changed in her form the next time she does it.
Well Based on Shape Clare would have a chance against Riful and Alica in her "Blade Queen Mode", but Isley can fight from a distance so its a little harder. Even if Clare can get to a spot in a instant if she "aims" a little first. Well it will be interesting to see whats changed in her form the next time she does it.
That would be interesting.
Now then, it's about time we thought about "turning" points in the upcoming Island War (well technically it started off once the Ghosts came back to Rabona to kick off their rebellion). I've thought of a few we've already seen.
1. Capture of Organization's "Eye", No. 6, Renee
-essentially this is doubly damaging for the Organization...not only does it give Riful a way to completely shift the balance of power on the island, but it also takes away a strong fighter & skilled observer upon whom the Organization depends for its intelligence
2. Miata/Clarice deserting the Organization
-While it is still too early to say that they are on the Ghosts' side, they seem to have deserted the Organization completely. Still it seems likely they'll fight alongside the Ghosts with Galatea helping, and consequently their strength robs the Organization of both a potential new No 1 & also dramatically strengthens the Ghosts' fighting power.
So far the Ghosts have been the only faction to gain more power. Riful may yet gain dramatically more power as part of the "Western Abyssal(s)" faction if she can awaken a new Abyssal One.
The question has to be, if just a few more single digits join the Ghosts (I'd guess No 6 Renee might), then when do we reach tipping point? When do the Ghosts' equal the Organization in strength? What happens when the Organization realizes it's being overpowered? Does it call in backup when that happens or do their enemies intervene as Rubel suggested when they're at a "suicidal" level?
As for Riful, how big a threat would her faction be if she had a new Abyssal ally to the Organization, Alicia & Beth? How big a threat to the Ghosts or the Southern Abyssals?
MisterJB
2008-10-31, 12:26
I don't think Renned would betray the Organization.
I don't think Renned would betray the Organization.
But yet I can't see them forgiving her for awakening a new Abyssal One. It would seem not so plausible at the moment for her to join the Ghosts, but bear in mind the Ghosts have unparalleled intelligence on the Organization's true motives. Additionally they are the only ones with the ability to even consider rescuing her. Even someone like Renee might be swayed if the evidence of the Organization's true motives were sufficiently powerful.
Or if they let her go perhaps she'll spread the story around...causing conflicting opinions and dissent amongst the Organization's Claymores. You can imagine it now...do we believe these ex-Claymores who saved our comrades' butts on several occasions or our own bosses?
That in turn might be a key turning point...when the Organization's formerly loyal fighters begin to fight amongst themselves.
MisterJB
2008-10-31, 13:12
But yet I can't see them forgiving her for awakening a new Abyssal One. It would seem not so plausible at the moment for her to join the Ghosts, but bear in mind the Ghosts have unparalleled intelligence on the Organization's true motives. Additionally they are the only ones with the ability to even consider rescuing her. Even someone like Renee might be swayed if the evidence of the Organization's true motives were sufficiently powerful.
Or if they let her go perhaps she'll spread the story around...causing conflicting opinions and dissent amongst the Organization's Claymores. You can imagine it now...do we believe these ex-Claymores who saved our comrades' butts on several occasions or our own bosses?
That in turn might be a key turning point...when the Organization's formerly loyal fighters begin to fight amongst themselves.
with that I agree, she probrably will become a spy for the Ghosts in the Organization
with that I agree, she probrably will become a spy for the Ghosts in the Organization
That would be one heck of a spy. That'd give them info from 3 "Eyes", giving them an absolutely unrivaled ability to know what's going on. Surely having 2 "Eyes" now and perhaps with Renee 3 in the future will be an incredible advantage. The Organization is dangerously reliant upon her for intelligence...and the Ghosts might just be able to take advantage of that.
MisterJB
2008-10-31, 13:27
That would be one heck of a spy. That'd give them info from 3 "Eyes", giving them an absolutely unrivaled ability to know what's going on. Surely having 2 "Eyes" now and perhaps with Renee 3 in the future will be an incredible advantage. The Organization is dangerously reliant upon her for intelligence...and the Ghosts might just be able to take advantage of that.
but it would be very hard for Rene to fool the Organization
remember Galatea? SHe lied to the Organization and they somehow found it out very quickly
but it would be very hard for Rene to fool the Organization
remember Galatea? SHe lied to the Organization and they somehow found it out very quickly
Well then her only other choice then by your own logic would be to join the Ghosts...if I'm reading you right. If they tell Renee what they know you think the Organization will really want to have her back if they know she's been "tampered" with? More likely just by hearing it Renee will realize it will be impossible to go back.
After all, why would you trust someone if you knew she'd been told your side was the bad guys? It is very hard for me to see Renee coming back if she hears what the Ghosts know. I'd guess she might be in the same boat as Clarice/Miata. Still, her loss, while not as devastating war power wise as Miata's, will hammer the Organization's ability to know what is going on within the island. Utter chaos will likely reign until they get another "Eye" to make up for her loss. Whether she dies or joins the Ghosts, her loss means an incredible disadvantage for the Organization in the upcoming fight.
MisterJB
2008-10-31, 13:39
Well then her only other choice then by your own logic would be to join the Ghosts...if I'm reading you right. If they tell Renee what they know you think the Organization will really want to have her back if they know she's been "tampered" with? More likely just by hearing it Renee will realize it will be impossible to go back.
After all, why would you trust someone if you knew she'd been told your side was the bad guys? It is very hard for me to see Renee coming back if she hears what the Ghosts know. I'd guess she might be in the same boat as Clarice/Miata. Still, her loss, while not as devastating war power wise as Miata's, will hammer the Organization's ability to know what is going on within the island. Utter chaos will likely reign until they get another "Eye" to make up for her loss. Whether she dies or joins the Ghosts, her loss means an incredible disadvantage for the Organization in the upcoming fight.
Well my logic is a little messed up :heh:
Renee doesn't seem the kind to betray the Organization and even if Clare don't tell her what she knows if she comes back to the Organization and they find out she was the one creating Raciella she will probrably be killed on the spot
And I think she will not die because it would be a waste to the series however we have seen that hapening in the past (Flora, Undine, etc)
SO she has two choice, she can hide in Rabona, just like Clarice and MIata or she can go back to the Organization and hope she is useful enough for they to be merciful
Gangsta Spanksta
2008-10-31, 13:58
You guys do know that maybe it's not Renee who awakens Raciella. Maybe the part that was Raphaela senses a familiar presence as in Teresa from Clare, and that is enough to get it out of its slumber. ;) I mean think of poor Renee if she does everything not to awaken it, and then it happens anyway. :heh:
Sordes Pilosus
2008-10-31, 14:37
Well Renee would return to the Organisation, quite shaken up. She would not take what the Ghosts would tell her "Seriusly", while being unable to forget about it. And likly be used by the author to show Organisation point of view in the comming conflict between Ghosts and The Org. She will likly be extremly confused and from there might hesitate in what she will do, what to report and those kind of things.
Well Renee would return to the Organisation, quite shaken up. She would not take what the Ghosts would tell her "Seriusly", while being unable to forget about it. And likly be used by the author to show Organisation point of view in the comming conflict between Ghosts and The Org. She will likly be extremly confused and from there might hesitate in what she will do, what to report and those kind of things.
I think ultimately this sort of moral confusion will be what does in the Organization. That and the fact that the current generation seem a bit "rushed". They aren't particularly amazing and, at least to my amateur eyes, struggling where the Ghosts were not as much just seven years ago.
Excepting Nos 1 & 2, this is a very shorthanded Organization right now. They'll be at the "suicidal" phase in no time if the Ghosts & Abyssals keep capturing or gaining single-digit warriors of theirs. They've already got Nos 4 & 6 and will probably add No 8, and maybe 7 or 9 the way things are going. This is the definition of a panic if you're the Organization right now. Not only are there unknown warriors poking about all over you can't detect, but Riful is now attempting to awaken an Abyssal-level fighter.
irvinethearcher
2008-11-01, 08:49
"So it begins, the great battle of our time..." (L.o.t.R.)
If those new found claymores in chapter 85 really are half-awakened they will probably join forces with the others in rabona.
It will be only reasonable that many of the other claymores will join the ghost. At the end the org will have only alicia and a few fanatics and psychos like ophelia who help them.
But alicia alone is incredible powerful. In the end probably only clare or another AO/Pricsiclla/Raciella will be able to beat her like it was in pieta against rigardo.
This isn't good - i fear that many claymores will have to die in the last battle. It will be harder than pieta. All will probably happen like miria said.
And somehow i have the feeling that perhaps galatea and lune will gave clare some kind of soul link backup to fight alicia.
"So it begins, the great battle of our time..." (L.o.t.R.)
If those new found claymores in chapter 85 really are half-awakened they will probably join forces with the others in rabona.
It will be only reasonable that many of the other claymores will join the ghost. At the end the org will have only alicia and a few fanatics and psychos like ophelia who help them.
But alicia alone is incredible powerful. In the end probably only clare or another AO/Pricsiclla/Raciella will be able to beat her like it was in pieta against rigardo.
This isn't good - i fear that many claymores will have to die in the last battle. It will be harder than pieta. All will probably happen like miria said.
And somehow i have the feeling that perhaps galatea and lune will gave clare some kind of soul link backup to fight alicia.
Somehow, having read the translations provided, I can't see No 8 joining at the moment. Helen & Deneve seem to want to talk to her only and then leave on their own. That's not to say No 8 doesn't seem intriguingly strong for her number. She outclasses No 9 by a margin that really shouldn't be there. So while she may have been sent on a suicide mission, I get the feeling Helen & Deneve aren't about to chance trying to turn her against the organization just yet.
Maybe that will happen once the Ghosts & Organization are fully aware of what the other is doing and getting mixed up into large fights. When that time comes I predict that a number of single-digits and others they have met will either (like No 14) be pissed at them or conflicted (probably No 8).
End of Chapter-
Dietrich: Even if polluted by evil, both you and I are/were both warriors. This one is out of respect among comrades. (sounds like she knows the three of them are not NORMAL)
Something BIG just occurred to me. Rubel mentions Claire saving Rafaela & Renee early in chapter 85. Just what would happen if Claire and the gang intervened? I can imagine one scenario might be if Rafaela did awaken in which they would essentially save Renee only while fleeing the upcoming monster fight. Still that wouldn't be as cool as the possibility that Claire and Co show up just as the awakening is occurring. Imagine, the two bodies merge BUT Claire/Cynthia stop it from fully awakening! Could you imagine if they were able to gain someone/something as powerful as an ally as a combined Rafaela/Luciella? Of course this might be extremely hard to accomplish...but I have confidence in Claire's reckless nature & Cynthia's enabling of it.
So the question has got to be...when/if Riful discovers them...what will they be doing?
1) Saving Rafaela/Luciella remains from Riful along with Renee
2) Saving Renee only since "Raciella" has awakened and is fighting Riful
3) Saving their asses since Riful discovered them early
4) Saving a merged (but not fully awakened) Raciella along with Renee
5) Yuma, Cynthia & Raki attempting to stop Claire from killing Priscilla
6) Talking with Raki & Priscilla (Claire unaware of what Priscilla is)
If the answer is number 4, how does that affect the island war? Heck, how would it affect the island war if it was just Renee?
My answer: If they rescue a merged but not awakened "Raciella" (essentially they would stop complete awakening in this scenario) they will have a genuine chance at killing Riful...not to mention will all of a sudden rival the Southern Abyssals as the most powerful faction on the island. If it's just Renee they'll get a solid fighter but also improved intelligence while the Organization is further hurt.
So what about you guys? Is there a possibility they could rescue a merged but NOT AWAKENED Raciella? And if they did, what would that mean for the Island War in your opinion?
Sordes Pilosus
2008-11-02, 09:32
Well there are a few changes to possible scenario's after this chapter. The most noticable thing is the fact more and more of "This Generation Claymore's" get introduced. We have been getting Single Digits of this generation constantly since the timeskip. Nina, Audrey, Ray, Miata, Renee and Diet"linde"(Its either just Diet from me or something like that rest of the series. Dont want to call her by a boyname without atlest a good backstory about why she is named that way.)
Generaly speaking this generation's single digits ends up being saved one after an other. So far we can place 3 in the category: "Saved but stil with the Org", Thats Nina, Audrey and Ray. We have 1 in the "Possible Ally" in Miata. We have now 2 Unknown. Renee thats stil a captive by Riful. And Diet who has just been saved by Helen and Deneve. How these 2 will turn out is stil unknown. Probably both will return to Org i feel.
But anyone else really noticed all the Single Digit Focus so far ? We even have Galatea added again. Its like the Author is now using this period to "Establish" the main character's that will dominate the rest of the series. Sure several will die, thats Claymore. But generaly we have been "Introduced or Reintroduced" to like 7 Single Digits since timeskip. And add Miria its 8. And Clare can be considered one even if she aint one, probably more of the Ghosts aswell. But generaly speaking, its quite alot of focus on Single Digits now.
It can be a preporation for the "1 on 1's" Between the Org and Ghosts. It can be related to some that will assists the ghosts, direct enemies they will be forced to slash down. There is quite a few posibilities. We are like in a "Calm Period" now, just waiting for the storm to hit.
irvinethearcher
2008-11-02, 11:08
Perhaps we should make a list:
1.Alicia
2.Beth
3.Audrey
4.Miata
5.Ray
6.Lune
7.?
8.Dietlinde
9.Nina
Please feel free to complete...
So what about you guys? Is there a possibility they could rescue a merged but NOT AWAKENED Raciella? And if they did, what would that mean for the Island War in your opinion?
There are so many possibilites now for story developement. Rubel mentioned that clare and raffaella could be good comrades if they'll meet.
And Raki asked lune to tell clare about him, when she'll meet her.
IMO lune will meet clare soon and tell her about priscilla and raki. Therefore clare will try to prevent raciella from awakening. That's how far i can forsee the story developement.
Sordes Pilosus
2008-11-02, 11:20
Number 6 Renee.(Lune, or Rune also used to describe her)
Number 1 and 2 is stil "Unconfirmed but belived to be Alicia and Beth"
Since for all we know they could have been "Taken out of the ranks"
Perhaps we should make a list:
1.Alicia
2.Beth
3.Audrey
4.Miata
5.Ray
6.Lune
7.?
8.Dietlinde
9.Nina
Please feel free to complete...
There are so many possibilites now for story developement. Rubel mentioned that clare and raffaella could be good comrades if they'll meet.
And Raki asked lune to tell clare about him, when she'll meet her.
IMO lune will meet clare soon and tell her about priscilla and raki. Therefore clare will try to prevent raciella from awakening. That's how far i can forsee the story developement.
Well what I just thought of when you mentioned that is a possible pairing of Raciella (partially awakened) with Claire & Co against Riful. If that is the case (imagine if you will, the raw combat capabilities of someone who results from the merging of Two Abyssal level fighters), there is a real possibility that this adventure may either end in Riful's death struggle or be the event that forces her to ally with Isley.
Still, considering this individual would not have a sword, they'd have to get one eventually. I figure this would be the event (whether it is with only Raciella or Renee or both) that leads to the party going north (possibly with Raki) and discovering the last of the unknown single-digits, No 7.
Somehow I get the wild feeling that Riful is going to be unpleasantly surprised by something soon...and it could be Claire keeping her new creation from totally awakening.
Well there is something that I have always thought about. Do we really know anything about Alicia & Beth at all? I mean if you consider that for the 7 years the ghosts were training, Alicia and Beth were being gauged and perfected and trained the entire time, no telling how strong they are. Yagi might even throw in something crazy enough as a "perfected subconscious soul-link", where they could both fight while Alicia was awakened. They have just been in the back of my mind as being ridiculously strong when introduced, seeing as in 85 chapters they have been in maybe 2, and still have not been introduced. I think it is a building up. Also, would Galatea post-timeskip not be considered pretty damn #1 level, I mean wow. And considering that the Ghosts technically have 4 claymores of #1 strength.
The ghosts have 2 members that are around n1 level and Miata who could be a number 1 who may help them if push comes to shove but shes very young maybe to young to be much use, Galatea I don't belive is n1 material to me she's never really seemed to be a front liner she's more a support class than anything.
There's also the issue of will Galatea,Maitia and Clarice even fight with the ghosts against the org because I'am not sure they will.
Well there is something that I have always thought about. Do we really know anything about Alicia & Beth at all? I mean if you consider that for the 7 years the ghosts were training, Alicia and Beth were being gauged and perfected and trained the entire time, no telling how strong they are. Yagi might even throw in something crazy enough as a "perfected subconscious soul-link", where they could both fight while Alicia was awakened. They have just been in the back of my mind as being ridiculously strong when introduced, seeing as in 85 chapters they have been in maybe 2, and still have not been introduced. I think it is a building up. Also, would Galatea post-timeskip not be considered pretty damn #1 level, I mean wow. And considering that the Ghosts technically have 4 claymores of #1 strength.
The ghosts have 2 members that are around n1 level and Miata who could be a number 1 who may help them if push comes to shove but shes very young maybe to young to be much use, Galatea I don't belive is n1 material to me she's never really seemed to be a front liner she's more a support class than anything.
There's also the issue of will Galatea,Maitia and Clarice even fight with the ghosts against the org because I'am not sure they will.
Well it is possible that Alicia will be even more mind-blowing than when we saw her last. But the thing is they also mentioned that Alicia was "too unstable" (http://www.onemanga.com/Claymore/72/13/) by Audrey to go after Galatea. Perhaps they've cured that problem...but somehow I doubt it. After all, why haven't we seen her running out and about? Why is she an "inactive member"?
Now then, on to this issue of ranks. I'd hazard a guess that Nos 1 & 2 are probably, at the moment, somewhat stronger than Claire or Miria, besides Galatea & Miata. That said if they get more experience or do yet another controlled awakening, you can imagine that Miria & Claire will be more than just minor hazards for the No 1, and certainly matches for No 2, Beth.
Miata has a long way to go, while Galatea I imagine will be used as a support in battle, and may battle her replacement, Audrey. If however the Ghosts are able to add Raciella to their ranks, the Organization would be in extreme peril. Renee & Dietrich at that point would be merely nice to have.
As to whether Miata & Galatea will fight...I think they will if Rabona is threatened at the very least. It might take them awhile to get into this war.
Am I the only one who thinks that the Ghosts are endangering themselves needlessly right now? How long does anybody think Helen & Deneve can continue this active intervening before the Organization sends their Nos 3, 5, 9 and maybe 8 after them? I can't see them risking Beth just yet...nor Alicia. I sense a single-digits vs. Helen & Deneve fight coming up within half a year, anyone else do too?
Sordes Pilosus
2008-11-04, 16:11
Well that would be a very interesting way to spark the fight between the Org and the Ghosts off. But its stil a little to soon, well it depends what happends in the 6 chapter's til then. Since its 6 Chapter's your refering to right ? Well personaly Thats a little to early, if Clare and group ends in a fight now it will last a few chapter's considering who the foes would be. And alot stil depends on how things will be buildt up. Its stil introduction chapter's which is why alot of the new generation low digits are being introduced. But im stil looking forward to when the "Calm Breaks"
while Galatea I imagine will be used as a support in battle, and may battle her replacement, Audrey.
I imagine that battle being terribly sad......for Audrey. Given what we have seen Galatea do against Miata and Agatha, I would say she is quite the champ. IMO she would tear Audrey apart.
Dean_the_Young
2008-11-05, 10:39
Going back to the wider war implications, I was rereading the series and noticed something.
Remember when Raki got taken by the slave traders, and that was why he was up North in the first place? There was a note on the slave trade that was interesting. It went something like
'Everyone knows that all orphans are gathered up by the slave traders. The boys are sent North, and the girls are sent East, because those are the areas that are always lacking manpower.'
Now we know that the girls sent East can be used by the Organization as Claymore candidates. But what of the boys? What happens with them?
And just why were there so many awakened ones in the North at all, let alone under Isely's command?
Anyone else following me on this?
Awakened
2008-11-05, 10:59
Going back to the wider war implications, I was rereading the series and noticed something.
Remember when Raki got taken by the slave traders, and that was why he was up North in the first place? There was a note on the slave trade that was interesting. It went something like
'Everyone knows that all orphans are gathered up by the slave traders. The boys are sent North, and the girls are sent East, because those are the areas that are always lacking manpower.'
Now we know that the girls sent East can be used by the Organization as Claymore candidates. But what of the boys? What happens with them?
And just why were there so many awakened ones in the North at all, let alone under Isely's command?
Anyone else following me on this?
I speculated about that here. http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=56339&page=96
I just talked to a couple of friends about various theories about what will happen in order for a "Raciella" to come about.
First, how does it happen?
Theory 1-Renee awakens Raciella
Theory 2-Renee starts awakening of Raciella, but Claire stops it
Theory 3-Claire merges Raciella but stops it from awakening
Of course, the real question is how does Claire get into Riful's lair
Theory I-fights her way in
Theory II-comes willingly knowing she can use Rafaela/Luciella's remains against Riful
Theory III-Claire is captured by Riful
What happens to Rafaela/Luciella's remains?
Theory A-They merge and awaken
Theory B-They merge but don't awaken
Theory C-They don't merge and are destroyed
Currently the only plausible scenario to me is this: Claire is detected by Riful, reveals that she knows what Riful is up to and offers to help (with the purpose of using Rafaela/Luciella's merging against Riful), she then merges the two but stops them short of awakening, and then afterwards, Riful, furious, attacks the two of them.
Shortly thereafter she is wounded in a severe fight with the two of them while Renee, Cynthia & Yuma high-tail it out of there. Riful then either dies (along with Dauf) or leaves to ally herself with Isley. Well anyways, that's my theory, but I'm sure I'll be proved wrong somehow.
Then of course a friend of mine brought up the ultimate weird theory: a triple-merger & partial awakening. What he was referring to was a bit bizarre. He thinks that Claire will attempt to merge the two but be accidentally drawn into their merger, and will come out as the top consciousness with the memories of the other two fused into her own. It's bizarre, amazing, and might be a bit too cool, as it'd make Claire positively "god-like". What this would mean for her relationship with Raki & the Ghosts is hard to say, though it would be both amazing & perhaps the weirdest thing to happen in Claymore yet.
There is a saying; the truth is stranger than fiction (in this case the truth of the fiction). So what do you guys see happening? Which of these (or your own theory), do you see happening and what implications will it have for the Island War?
FateAnomaly
2008-11-06, 05:30
I think Raciella will awaken but Rafeala will have more control over her behaviour.
I actually hope Raciella doesn't awaken it would be really interesting to see the personality that emerges if it merges and doesn't awaken will it be Rafaela or Luciela or a blend of the two or even an AB and claymore sharing one body, it'll also be interesting to see how it will effect there power N1 + N1= uber claymore?
I actually hope Raciella doesn't awaken it would be really interesting to see the personality that emerges if it merges and doesn't awaken will it be Rafaela or Luciela or a blend of the two or even an AB and claymore sharing one body, it'll also be interesting to see how it will effect there power N1 + N1= uber claymore?
I get the feeling that since you are merging an non-awakened claymore's remains with that of an awakened being's we will see the emergence of a partially awakened claymore of immense strength.
The personality & memory of the new individual would be very interesting, considering it would be an individual resulting from a merger of two sisters.
But I think the most important question would be if this happened, does the new person, this partially awakened "Raciella", ally herself with the Ghosts? My guess is she would but it's impossible to say for sure.
What would happen in the Island War should that happen? Do Riful and Dauf die? Or do they instead ally themselves with Isley against the Ghosts and Organization? What does the Organization do against a partially awakened Claymore that is the result of the merging of two beings, both of Abyssal One strength?
I think that if the Ghosts do indeed pick up Raciella as an ally they will be able to threaten everyone else like never before. Who knows, perhaps it'll bring about a previously impossible alliance between the Abyssal Ones and the Organization against them.
irvinethearcher
2008-11-07, 16:56
Well there is something that I have always thought about. Do we really know anything about Alicia & Beth at all? I mean if you consider that for the 7 years the ghosts were training, Alicia and Beth were being gauged and perfected and trained the entire time, no telling how strong they are. Yagi might even throw in something crazy enough as a "perfected subconscious soul-link", where they could both fight while Alicia was awakened. They have just been in the back of my mind as being ridiculously strong when introduced, seeing as in 85 chapters they have been in maybe 2, and still have not been introduced. I think it is a building up. Also, would Galatea post-timeskip not be considered pretty damn #1 level, I mean wow. And considering that the Ghosts technically have 4 claymores of #1 strength.
Good point i think we didn't have seen all their powers. They will be perhaps even stronger than riful or isley by now with some new crazy abilities they're the main enemy of the ghost's now.
MisterJB
2008-11-08, 16:14
In my opinion, Easley and the Organization are the strongest factions rigth now and I think they will face very soon.
Reasons for that? Well, Alicia, Beth and Easley are the only caracthers that we haven't saw since the seven years timeskip, so it's natural they will appear at the same time and they probrably will figth.
Now, who do you think will win that figth?
In my opinion, Easley and the Organization are the strongest factions rigth now and I think they will face very soon.
Reasons for that? Well, Alicia, Beth and Easley are the only characters that we haven't saw since the seven years timeskip, so it's natural they will appear at the same time and they probrably will figth.
Now, who do you think will win that figth?
Well, if it were merely Isley vs. Alicia, then I'd say he would lose, as those two (Alicia & Beth) might be able to switch off awakening.
As for war prospects overall, the Ghosts look highly vulnerable right now, but not as vulnerable as the Organization. The only people the Organization has that can truly be considered of danger to the Ghosts are Nos 9 and up. Considering Yuma merely knocked out No 14, I'd say it's a fair guess even if they sent the whole force against the Ghosts, most of the lower ranks would be taken care of rapidly. Nos 1 & 2 would face off against Claire & Miria. The rest would take on the Deneve/Galatea-led teams and probably be in for a really tough fight.
HOWEVER, should the Ghosts acquire this "Raciella" as a partially awakened ally rather than an enemy, I would think they'll either kill Riful/Dauf in the process or force them into Isley's hands. That's a big if, but I get the feeling, judging from Renee NOT being up to the task of awakening Rafaela/Luciella's combined remains, that the only people capable of it will be Claire/Cynthia.
Most likely they will somehow be forced by Riful to help (though they will hold off on fighting, as they figure it to be suicidal-yeah I know, disappointing except that I'm sure Claire will figure out a way to turn the newly merged being against Riful) awaken/merge a new being. When Claire/Cynthia stop it short of fully awakening, Riful will become furious and attempt to awaken it fully.
At that moment she will realize her (perhaps final) mistake and be fighting shortly thereafter for her life against Raciella and the 3 Ghosts.
As for what will happen other than that, I have no idea. I have to imagine though that Renee will stay alive at least until the Ghosts meet Raki.
MisterJB
2008-11-09, 05:44
revan5: Now that you have said it...
I never thougth of that, if there are Claymores (Galatea and maybe Beth) and Awakened Beings(that guy in the north that Deneve killed) who can make someone go over their limits then maybe they could do the oposite and make an Awakened Being revert to the human form
revan5: Now that you have said it...
I never thougth of that, if there are Claymores (Galatea and maybe Beth) and Awakened Beings(that guy in the north that Deneve killed) who can make someone go over their limits then maybe they could do the oposite and make an Awakened Being revert to the human form
Then perhaps Raki is searching for Claire knowing that perhaps she can "revert" Priscilla to her old state, or at least a partially awakened state. That would certainly change the balance of power on the island...Isley would be completely isolated and almost certainly would need to ally himself with somebody like Riful, who may need to ally herself with Isley soon enough if Raciella does not fully awaken.
Spectacular_Insanity
2008-11-11, 14:38
Then perhaps Raki is searching for Claire knowing that perhaps she can "revert" Priscilla to her old state, or at least a partially awakened state. That would certainly change the balance of power on the island...Isley would be completely isolated and almost certainly would need to ally himself with somebody like Riful, who may need to ally herself with Isley soon enough if Raciella does not fully awaken.
I don't think that's his purpose. We only know for certain that he's looking for Clare. We don't know if he's planned anything beyond that, however. He might not have taken into account what Clare might do when she confronts the fact that he's been traveling with an Awakened Being, much less Priscilla.
And somehow I doubt that it's possible to change someone back into a human who's fully awakened, because their way of thinking greatly changes as well. Resisting awakening in the first place taes a strong mind, but even the mere possibility of "un-awakening" would take incredible mental strength ("the human heart", so to speak) which a typical Awakened Being would no longer possess in the first place.
MisterJB
2008-11-11, 14:46
I see i was misunderstood; to me is also impossible to bring back someone who has fully Awakened what I meant was like this:
We got Miria and Clare figthing Easley, they are getting her asses kicked but then, Galatea, Tabitha and Cynthia step in and using their combined Yoki-manipulation's power they manage to bring Easley back to his human-form, then it would be easy for Miria and CLare to kill him.
I don't think that's his purpose. We only know for certain that he's looking for Clare. We don't know if he's planned anything beyond that, however. He might not have taken into account what Clare might do when she confronts the fact that he's been traveling with an Awakened Being, much less Priscilla.
And somehow I doubt that it's possible to change someone back into a human who's fully awakened, because their way of thinking greatly changes as well. Resisting awakening in the first place taes a strong mind, but even the mere possibility of "un-awakening" would take incredible mental strength ("the human heart", so to speak) which a typical Awakened Being would no longer possess in the first place.
Yet we also know that some amount of humanity remains in a number of people like Ophelia that become Awakened Beings. We should consider it NOT out of the realm of possibilities for an awakened being to revert in some way, even if only in the way Ophelia did.
I still think that we will NOT see Renee merge/awaken a "Raciella". Why? Because as Renee points out, she is not very skilled in internal youki manipulation, just Youki detection. What that means is that I am pretty certain Claire/Cynthia MUST BE THE ONES TO MERGE THE NEW ABYSSAL-LEVEL BEING.
Why would they do that? Well, I have the feeling that Riful IS going to detect them, and that Claire, for the sake of saving her comrades from dying, will agree to do it. That is NOT to say that she'll agree to what Riful was planning on. I think Claire may be forming a plan already about only partially awakening someone of Abyssal-level strength. Then after Riful becomes upset at a lack of total awakening, she commits a large (and possibly fatal) mistake of attempting to awaken the new creation herself! At least that's my theory...
Which reminds me, what is supposed to happen when you merge/and possibly awaken two Abyssal-level beings, one of whom has awakened, and the other who has not?
Do you get a PARTIALLY AWAKENED CLAYMORE SIMILAR TO THERESA IN STRENGTH? Do you get an Priscilla-level Awakened being with memories from both sisters? Does anyone have any good reasoning as to what we will see result? Plus how does the new merged being figure in the Island War?
Negativedark
2008-11-13, 17:20
Well after reading volume 13 I realized something about Audery and Racheal. Having survived the experience with Riful, they might be a lot wiser now. At the very least there are two lessions they should have learned.
1: Pay attention to the terrain. This seems to be a common problem with the new generation, since Dietriech's team also got lured into unfavovorable terrain.
2:Don't judge a foe by how much yoki you sense.
radioIzzy
2008-11-13, 18:51
How long has this war been going on for?
I just never got a clear answer for this question, but after reading the island/ experiement part in ch. 84 or 85, I've always sort of wonder how long the mainland war has been going on for.
How long has this war been going on for?
I just never got a clear answer for this question, but after reading the island/ experiement part in ch. 84 or 85, I've always sort of wonder how long the mainland war has been going on for.
Go over to Onemanga.com, and then find claymore chapter 79, pages 27-28. It essentially says that the two sides (possibly composed of many previous countries gobbled up by two great powers) have been at war for more than a century. The war took a turn a century ago when it split into only two different sides, one of which used Dragonkin/dragons to take on the power behind the Organization.
After that Claymores and Awakened Beings were created and experimented upon in order to match the dragonkin in battle. So in essence that seems to suggest that none of the Abyssal Ones on the Island is older than a century or so. It also suggests that Claymores are a relatively new innovation of the past century, since it implies that they came into being AFTER the dragonkin began making a devastating impact upon the battlefields of the mainland war.
MisterJB
2008-11-14, 12:15
In my opinion, the Island war is going to lose one faction soon, because I think that Riful is enjoying her last moments alive.
This will happen because I'm 100% sure that we will see the Awakening of Raciela, Yagi-san has always given what his fans wanted and he won't let us down on this.
SO this is what I think it will happen:
Renne Awakens Raciela and she attacks Riful, Riful is able to kill Raciela but Easley has felt that Riful was really wounded because of the figth and he rushs to finish the job. Riful will have no chance because she doesn't have a Priscilla watching her back
In my opinion, the Island war is going to lose one faction soon, because I think that Riful is enjoying her last moments alive.
This will happen because I'm 100% sure that we will see the Awakening of Raciela, Yagi-san has always given what his fans wanted and he won't let us down on this.
SO this is what I think it will happen:
Renne Awakens Raciela and she attacks Riful, Riful is able to kill Raciela but Easley has felt that Riful was really wounded because of the figth and he rushs to finish the job. Riful will have no chance because she doesn't have a Priscilla watching her back
Well I don't know about a full-awakening. Yagi seems to be inferring from the most recent chapter that perhaps we won't see a full awakening, but rather we will see Riful attempt to get even with Claire & Co. After all, what is the point of Riful saying "You'll pay dearly for this" if it never happens? My guess is we will NOT see a full awakening if Claire is involved. If she isn't involved with Raciella, then we will see a full-scale awakening.
Have to agree on the Riful dying part, if not on who does it. I think she'll be killed by "Raciella", not Isley or even Alicia. Why? Well she's merging/awakening two Abyssal-level individuals for one. 1 + 1 usually = 2
If Claire is involved and the individual only partially awakens then I have a feeling Raciella may join the side of the Ghosts. Otherwise she will form her own new faction in all of this. My guess is her hunger will lead her on a rampage if she awakens, which will result in a showdown between her and Priscilla.
KillerYomaFromSpace
2008-11-15, 16:34
I don't think Riful will get killed, defeated, maybe, but I'm sure that with a body like hers and her hability to disappear, she can easily escape any situation
I don't think Riful will get killed, defeated, maybe, but I'm sure that with a body like hers and her hability to disappear, she can easily escape any situation
Yeah, but can she escape in time if she doesn't sense the true strength of that which she is fighting/possibly awakening? Speed is only useful when you're quick in reacting, or plan ahead. Being right next to a new Abyssal One seems to be less than well-planned on Riful's part, particularly since she can't tell if what she's awakening is stronger than her (and cannot even read the Youki enough to truly look at it, else she wouldn't be guessing about "Raciella's" strength.
What I'm saying is that Riful (Western Abyssal faction) seems to be the most vulnerable of the four sides currently on the island. Oh sure, she may have the most potential to gain at the moment, but the Ghosts have the most potential to gain in the long-run, and if Miata calms down and gets stronger, the Organization may be in even greater trouble.
Wiggle wyrm
2008-11-18, 15:41
At the moment, I wouldn’t say that any of the sides have an insurmountable advantage over the others. That will probably be changing pretty soon with Rafciela awakening and who knows what Priscilla will do when she reaches her limit.
The Organization: As far as we know, still only have Alicia and Beth, that and a generation of Claymores who are mostly rookies and amateurs.
Isley: Is MIA and doesn’t seem to have Priscilla anymore.
Riful: Has plans, and probably a few AB’s, but at the moment her only trump card is a strange coffee table that may well destroy her.
Ghosts: Are effectively invisible right now, but don’t have the power to take down any of the big movers and shakers.
Raki & Priscilla: A ticking time bomb wandering around right now. Not involved with any of the other factions right now.
At the moment, I wouldn’t say that any of the sides have an insurmountable advantage over the others. That will probably be changing pretty soon with Rafciela awakening and who knows what Priscilla will do when she reaches her limit.
The Organization: As far as we know, still only have Alicia and Beth, that and a generation of Claymores who are mostly rookies and amateurs.
Isley: Is MIA and doesn’t seem to have Priscilla anymore.
Riful: Has plans, and probably a few AB’s, but at the moment her only trump card is a strange coffee table that may well destroy her.
Ghosts: Are effectively invisible right now, but don’t have the power to take down any of the big movers and shakers.
Raki & Priscilla: A ticking time bomb wandering around right now. Not involved with any of the other factions right now.
We'll see about that part about the Ghosts not having "the power to take down any of the big movers and shakers" now won't we? I would hazard a guess that they could do some significant damage as a group of 7 against Riful or Isley, or heck, even Alicia and Beth. They've acquired (I'm pretty certain Miria will have them as allies soon enough) Galatea, Miata and Clarice in addition to that. One is an ex-No 3, another a ex-No 4 with the potential to OUTDO the current No 1, Alicia. They explicitly mentioned that (The Organization that is) when giving Clarice her pre-mission briefing (chapter 73 page 3).
My guess is that Claire will be forced to go up to a whole new level (and possibly alert the Org to her half-awakened status via Renee) that forced Half-Awakenings are very possible. That might mean she'll eventually rival an Abyssal One by the end of this storyline (fingers crossed).
As for Isley being a separate faction than Priscilla...well, we don't really know that. There's been a debate on earlier that he may be in fact trailing Raki & Priscilla in the hope that they'd find Riful and/or her prize. The theories on that range from Raki/Priscilla being actively involved, to being passively used and also to be unknowingly used (my theory).
I agree that Riful's sole possession right now might kill her though. It looks very likely she has something more powerful than herself and doesn't know it.
FateAnomaly
2008-11-20, 00:52
I don't really believe the ghosts are all that powerful now. It just that they had numbers on their side. Both Riful and and Alicia have shown that they are capable of defeating mutiple above avg ABs. The ghost work together to defeat ABs. Therefore, a simple solution to defeat them is by using numbers. Gather enough ABs/Claymores to match their numbers and have Riful/Alicia defeat them 1 by 1.
I don't really believe the ghosts are all that powerful now. It just that they had numbers on their side. Both Riful and and Alicia have shown that they are capable of defeating mutiple above avg ABs. The ghost work together to defeat ABs. Therefore, a simple solution to defeat them is by using numbers. Gather enough ABs/Claymores to match their numbers and have Riful/Alicia defeat them 1 by 1.
It's less that the Ghosts are really powerful right now than the fact that they clearly have the most potential of all the factions on the island. If they keep picking off Claymores from the Organization, then it'll be just a matter of time before the balance of power shifts in their favor.
If Riful dies and/or "Raciella" joins them, that'll really benefit them. Considering Claire's plot armor, I'd say it's likely to see Riful's death. I'd make it about 50/50 considering what she's trying to awaken. That'd make her the first faction to die and the Ghosts possibly the first to benefit or come in contact with "Raciella" as a new faction.
As for when the war between the Ghosts' and Org gets started, I put it within the next six months/chapters. Right now Helen/Deneve risk getting things started early exposing themselves to No 8, who may or MAY NOT have been told about mysterious, enemy claymores from the North. We'll find out how much she knows shortly...but I get the feeling she's brighter than most when it comes to running thru Helen's lies.
irvinethearcher
2008-11-26, 16:12
Considering Yuma merely knocked out No 14
I thought about the Yuma - Punch again. It seems that most of us, i'm included, have forgotten, that number 14 was under yoki - suprresants. Therefore she probably would be stronger with yoki release. Yuma was trained to fight yokiless so she had perhaps some kind of advantage too? This would perhaps explain to some degree why dietrich is that strong. But somehow i think she is half-awakened because she seems to strong to me.
Alright, I'm just updating this as chapter 86 comes out. As things stand we now have the Ghosts coming into conflict with Isley. Normally Helen/Deneve would die, but I get the feeling they're about to be unintentionally saved by that thing behind Dietrich.
So the question is, what will change if Isley comes into conflict with that thing behind Dietrich?
Is it allied with the Organization, against it or its own, independent side? Will Rubel's plans go awry if it is in fact a Dragonkin? Plus, why haven't we seen this "thing" before now?
Finally, in what bizarre direction will the Island War tilt next. This appears to be the first time we'll be seeing the war start off formally, with one of the island's factions now soon to be engaged against what appears to be a new power.
Extra: Does anyone else take this to mean that Raki/Priscilla have split off from Isley's side and that's why he looks the way he does? Plus why does he appear to be targeted?
-The Factions as they may now be:
-Southern Abyssal (Isley)
-Rogue super-Abyssal (Priscilla)
-Western Abyssal (Riful)
-Ghosts
-Organization
-new power "The Demon" (Dragonkin/other?)
That's quite a bit of change already. Anyone want to guess where this is all going now?
Sordes Pilosus
2008-12-02, 23:02
Revan5, please wait til AFTER there is a readable version of 86 before posting it. If not your simply spoiling other readers. If not at the very least place it in a spoiler tag and referance it to chapter 86 Material, since 86 is not Scanlated or Translated yet and this chapter has nothing to do with chapter 86 directly please spare those that actualy wait til chapter 86 is out before posting material of that chapter, it really sucks to be spoiled.
Ancient Soul
2008-12-02, 23:10
...@Weils already postet a first translation on chapter 86...which most of us already read it :D
It would be intersting to know if there are DODs (like this month chapter suggest) on the Island they are following OE (Organisation Enemy) orders or act on their own!As far as we know Rubel don't know anything about DODs being on The Island!
A powerfull rogue DOD (or many) may chance everyone course of action especially that of Miria who plan to take down The ORG.A rogue DOD would be against what Rubel told them (that his side will not directly attack) and thus their plan must be changed since their info on which they acted until now is not accurate.
Also if The ORG find out that may ask for reinforcements or begin to redeploy from the Island.
Revan5, please wait til AFTER there is a readable version of 86 before posting it. If not your simply spoiling other readers. If not at the very least place it in a spoiler tag and referance it to chapter 86 Material, since 86 is not Scanlated or Translated yet and this chapter has nothing to do with chapter 86 directly please spare those that actualy wait til chapter 86 is out before posting material of that chapter, it really sucks to be spoiled.
I waited until there was a spoiler with a plot translation to post. Anyways, I put everything in a nice spoiler section just for your sake.
Anyways, it appears that the Island's situation was not exactly like what we thought.
Interestingly the Organization seems to have known about this new power, but Riful and the Ghosts obviously do not know. I would severly doubt, considering they have only one (or two depending on Beth's strength) Abyssal level fighter(s), that this Demon is under their control.
It is either a rogue AB (which everyone seems to doubt), or it is a Dragonkin either there to set the stage for invasion (seems odd though that this "Demon" has been there so long, if in fact it moved in around the time Isley did) or has gone rogue itself and found the island a nice place to "retire".
I wonder if this is the nail in the coffin of the Org (signaling impending invasion) or something else. It seems odd that at the same time Isley moved into the South something else moved in as well. It either means that Priscilla/Raki are searching for an ally in Claire/Co or they've left Isley for the relatively greater safety of the West, where they only have to deal with another Abyssal One weaker than Priscilla. Isley either couldn't force them to stay or this Demon is more dangerous than he is and he has some sort of strategy set against it.
What I will say is that it appears Isley is NOT tracking Raki/Priscilla, so therefore must not be interested in Riful's fate and that of her possible new Abyssal ally.
Perhaps Isley will be the first Abyssal to die...and probably will die by this Demon's hands.
Sordes Pilosus
2008-12-03, 00:23
My sake ? No I followed the Chinease version and all that like most other hardcore fans. Just really annoying when a mods comes around later or someone likes to wait to get to read it online and takes part in this topic for instance to just have their exiting wait ruined due to a misplaced spoiler.
MisterJB
2008-12-04, 12:45
I think that with this new (awesome) chapter we can have a whole new vision of the war on the Island.
We were ranting about how Clare and Miria could half-Awaken and defeat Isley but Helen and Deneve almost cried out off fear just because Isley was near them on his HUMAN-form.
I think we underestimated the Abyssal Ones a little. Isley could feel Deneve and Helen's Yoki eve while they tryed to hide it so the stealth ability of the Ghosts is out of the equation
Awakened
2008-12-04, 18:19
I think that with this new (awesome) chapter we can have a whole new vision of the war on the Island.
We were ranting about how Clare and Miria could half-Awaken and defeat Isley but Helen and Deneve almost cried out off fear just because Isley was near them on his HUMAN-form.
I think we underestimated the Abyssal Ones a little. Isley could feel Deneve and Helen's Yoki eve while they tryed to hide it so the stealth ability of the Ghosts is out of the equation
I think Isley saw Helen's sword.
pag 25,27,28
Isley is known for being very cunning. I think he would find two people in black hooded cloaks standing in the middle of street looking at him extremely suspicious.
I think Isley saw Helen's sword.
pag 25,27,28
Have to agree with you on that, plus, come on, does anyone think Isley so dense that he can't notice a swordbelt and oddly non-civilian black clothing. They may be in cloaks, but Helen/Deneve still stand out in a crowd from a clothing perspective. It was a dead give-away, and I'm sure Isley was not in the least fooled by a mere cloak over their eyes. He knew exactly what he was dealing with...well, at least he thinks he does.
As for the strategic situation, this Demon and the fact that Isley is not anywhere near Priscilla/Raki means a few things.
For one:
Southern Abyssal Faction:
Now dramatically weaker, and apparently vulnerable to this new power, the "Demon"-it remains to be seen whether he's done in by the Demon or the Ghosts.
-Let's think about this logically...the Ghosts have not one but two Eyes, one of whom is beyond exceptional. Does anyone really think they won't recognize Helen/Deneve's Youki surging past their limits? This Demon might attack Isley, but there is a significant chance that if it doesn't finish him fast, or vice versa, both sides will leave themselves open to attack by the crack team of Ghosts under Miria's command in Rabona (Miria (CO), Tabitha (LT), Galatea, Miata and Clarice) or possibly Alicia/Beth. After all, why not try to kill two birds with one stone?
The Org is the less likely to attack, as they know that Riful is planning on awakening a former member of Abyssal strength, or at least suspect it. Thus why Isley's only real threats are the Ghosts and this Demon. If they're weakened substantially by the time the other Ghosts show up, then expect a possible end to both factions or just one
Rogue Super-Abyssal:
New faction apparently, with Raki calling the shots even though his partner is capable of tearing apart anyone (excepting perhaps the Demon). Their only real threat is internal issues (Priscilla needing to eat) and a merged "Raciella".
Unknown if they have irreparably split with Isley or know about the "Demon".
Western Abyssal(s?):
Riful's faction is in danger, possibly of death should her experiment go horribly wrong, but at the same time stands to gain much if the new Abyssal is to her liking.
Of course, it could all backfire...the new being may only partially awaken or decide to turn on its supposed Master. If the merging occurs but stops short of a full awakening, expect an alliance with the Ghosts/joining the Ghosts and possibly Riful's death
Organization:
Just when things couldn't go any worse, their No 1 potential deserts, and their No 8 now appears headed into enemy arms. Of course they could have some things up their sleeves, but don't count on it. They are also missing their "Eye", and thus are practically blind compared to the Ghosts, who seem to be assembling the best intelligence on the island.
Ghosts:
If Helen/Deneve survive, expect the Ghosts to regroup and prepare their campaign. If (and I'm pretty certain it will happen) they see the "Demon", then expect the Ghosts to change strategy. There are a lot of "ifs" here. They could lose Helen/Deneve, which would be a heavy blow. They could lose all of Claire's team (really unlikely), but they also could gain No 8 Dietrich and No 6 Renee and several others.
I expect that if Miria thinks the "Demon" is a Dragonkin she will start preparing for invasion by mobilizing Rabona and neighboring towns/villages and raising an army. I know, sounds bold, but it's rational if you think the Dragonkin might be accompanied by their smaller, human-like allies.
However I expect the Demon may just be content to terrorize the South for now, which will probably mean we'll see the Org-Ghost fight coming in 20 chapters or so. Don't expect it to be pretty or one-sided. Neither side is exactly weak: the Ghosts are all single-digit level (excepting Clarice) and the Org has Alicia/Beth + large numbers of weaker Claymores.
The Demon (possibly Dragonkin/Organization's enemies?)
-We currently don't know much about this faction, but I'd hazard a guess it is not affiliated with the Organization. If it was affiliated there'd be no reason for Dietrich to hide from the "Demon". Instead it appears to be either a new, rogue power or a test-fighter sent in by the Organization's Enemies, and thus likely a very strong Dragonkin. Expect this faction to attempt to eliminate the Southern Abyssal, Isley.
One thing, though we don't know its strength, we can infer that it was the Demon and not Isley eating through the towns of the south. If it engages Isley it may eliminate another faction and take over the South entirely. That would change things entirely. It however would remain vulnerable to an attack by the Organization or the Ghosts in the aftermath of victory, should it have been a tough fight.
If Rubel's bosses have lost patience, this creature may be their answer. However I expect it will stay in the South even if victorious for a while, unless it has allies. Rubel can be expected to keep attempting to annihilate the Org from within, so the Demon may merely be a nice way to help move the process along.
I was hoping the key event in Chapter 86 would NOT happen. It just makes the idea of a "total war" on the island a bit more confusing & muddled.
So, Revan5, if we go along with your hypothesis (which itself is quite likely), then:
There are Dragon-Kin operating in the South, which would:
1. Tip the balance of power in favour of Abysals in the South
2. Render the Organization and the Ghost's control over the land much more questionable
3. Meaning that some factions would need to probably ally each other.
Two things that are a bit unclear though: Yagi has not developed this story progressively. (I feel we are getting snapshots of events all happening simultaneously: Riful & Raciela, Clare & Rubel, Helen/ Deneve & Isley etc). So the scope of war on the island is still very much a free for all. It's a messy chaos.
Second, why destroy the towns? In the context of an Island War, probably only Dragon Kin will have incentive to destroy anything local.
What's your take on that? How would you fit that into your hypothesis?
I was hoping the key event in Chapter 86 would NOT happen. It just makes the idea of a "total war" on the island a bit more confusing & muddled.
So, Revan5, if we go along with your hypothesis (which itself is quite likely), then:
There are Dragon-Kin operating in the South, which would:
1. Tip the balance of power in favour of Abysals in the South
2. Render the Organization and the Ghost's control over the land much more questionable
3. Meaning that some factions would need to probably ally each other.
Two things that are a bit unclear though: Yagi has not developed this story progressively. (I feel we are getting snapshots of events all happening simultaneously: Riful & Raciela, Clare & Rubel, Helen/ Deneve & Isley etc). So the scope of war on the island is still very much a free for all. It's a messy chaos.
Second, why destroy the towns? In the context of an Island War, probably only Dragon Kin will have incentive to destroy anything local.
What's your take on that? How would you fit that into your hypothesis?
My take? Let me see, ah, well for one, I believe you may have accidentally combined the Demon with Isley for the Southern Abyssal faction. No worries, I've done similar mistakes on this forum (see above posts relating to accidentally revealing chapter 86 spoilers).
What I will say is that the concentration of power in the south in the two opposing factions (Southern Abyssal/Isley & the Demon/Organization's Enemies?) is far higher than anywhere else on the island. Whoever comes out on top there will swing the island war decisively, to the point where a "Raciella" would be required to put things out of balance again.
We know now that the West Central part of the island is occupied by the Ghosts and an indeterminate number of Org. Claymores. West of that is Riful, the Western Abyssal(possibly Abyssals) faction. In the east central part of the island you're likely to find Nos 1, 2 and 3 of the Org. All the factions, barring Riful, are within quick striking distance of one another. That is a relative word, but it sets up the coming conflict very well.
There are some possibilities of alliance, but few are palatable to any side. Riful doesn't trust the Ghosts after what Claire did. Claire/Ghosts would never trust an Abyssal, even if they were forced to ally with one. The list goes on and on...
Destroy towns huh? Sounds like somebody needs to delve into some history (see Russia v. Napoleon or Soviet Union v. Nazi Germany). This Demon is committing total war against Isley. Isley, like all awakened beings, needs a huge amount of food to keep going (just like Napoleon's army did or the German Army did). Humans however have to replace those lost and more in order to make this sustainable. The Demon is steadily depriving Isley of territory and food by annihilating the towns in the South. Isley cannot live where there is no food supply after all unless he wants to wind up like Priscilla!
Steadily Isley is being ground down, losing his wits in a bout of total war. That's exactly what this is: total war. Isley is used to fighting Abyssals interested in killing him and getting land, but not in creatures willing to wipe out his food supply in order to kill him. In addition, since he can hide as a human, I imagine by wiping out the towns the Demon steadily eliminates one potential hiding spot after another.
My guess why Isley is hiding is that this Demon has proved as strong if not stronger than him. Thus he's able to survive, but only by keeping alert at all hours, which I imagine is slowly driving him up the wall (note the eyes...those are a good support of this theory). The coming showdown will probably be Isley's last moments unless something changes in his bout of bad luck.
I would imagine this Demon might need to eat, but nobody's sure. I assume it is in fact a dragonkin, which no one has any idea of its characteristics.
Who knows-perhaps it has ranged weapons on par with Isley's...like fire for instance. Hard to fight something breathing fire with no shield if you're a Claymore (thus why I feel there may be this need for awakened beings).
My guess how Miata fits in all this is that she may in fact be a bizarre hybrid; part human, part Yoma, part Dragonkin. After all, no other warrior has demonstrated her bizarre levels of strength at such an age nor been able to find people purely based on some sort of sixth sense!
MisterJB
2008-12-05, 14:42
Maybe the Demon eats AB and Isley is a potential snack:heh:
Maybe the Demon eats AB and Isley is a potential snack:heh:
Hey! That's possible :heh: But I don't think Isley will taste that nice. Last we saw of him, he seems to be in quite an anal mood.
@Revan5:
"... I believe you may have accidentally combined the Demon with Isley for the Southern Abyssal faction. No worries, I've done similar mistakes on this forum..."
I can exactly remember what I was referring to back then. But what I possibly meant was that - with Isley AND this mysterious demon in the south, it would be quite hard for anyone to get a foothold there. By implication, of all the locations on the Island the South is more or less a zero-sum game. Either one will have control, & the other factions are least likely to unseat the winner.
A lot of people interpret that Isley is hiding from the "demon". Deneve certainly makes some reference to it in Chapter 86, although she did not say hiding from whom. It would turn things around a lot if Isley wasn't hiding from the "demon". Even better, while most likely, the "demon" might not be a Dragonkin - one of Yagi's long rides to throw us off guard :heh:
Destroy towns huh? Sounds like somebody needs to delve into some history (see Russia v. Napoleon or Soviet Union v. Nazi Germany). This Demon is committing total war against Isley.
That I understand. Although it does not make a lot of sense - in the context of Claymore. The "demon" is not out for territory. If we go by your hypothesis, he is simply looking for Isley. Destroying towns, which Isley doesn't even bother to hold in the first place, is a bit illogical.
Second, don't you think if half the towns in the south were already wiped out, the Organization would've notice? Since the Organization has much more profit-motive vested interest in human settlement, they would have sent someone (I'm thinking Alicia/ Beth) south to engage. And they would have much more info rather than the vague description given by Dietrich.
Last, half the towns is a lot. And no concrete witnesses? It sounds quite incredible :D
Probably both Isley & the "demon" have been doing demolition. But I think its a bit too early to make a real conclusion.
Hey! That's possible :heh: But I don't think Isley will taste that nice. Last we saw of him, he seems to be in quite an anal mood.
@Revan5:
"... I believe you may have accidentally combined the Demon with Isley for the Southern Abyssal faction. No worries, I've done similar mistakes on this forum..."
I can exactly remember what I was referring to back then. But what I possibly meant was that - with Isley AND this mysterious demon in the south, it would be quite hard for anyone to get a foothold there. By implication, of all the locations on the Island the South is more or less a zero-sum game. Either one will have control, & the other factions are least likely to unseat the winner.
A lot of people interpret that Isley is hiding from the "demon". Deneve certainly makes some reference to it in Chapter 86, although she did not say hiding from whom. It would turn things around a lot if Isley wasn't hiding from the "demon". Even better, while most likely, the "demon" might not be a Dragonkin - one of Yagi's long rides to throw us off guard :heh:
Destroy towns huh? Sounds like somebody needs to delve into some history (see Russia v. Napoleon or Soviet Union v. Nazi Germany). This Demon is committing total war against Isley.
That I understand. Although it does not make a lot of sense - in the context of Claymore. The "demon" is not out for territory. If we go by your hypothesis, he is simply looking for Isley. Destroying towns, which Isley doesn't even bother to hold in the first place, is a bit illogical.
Second, don't you think if half the towns in the south were already wiped out, the Organization would've notice? Since the Organization has much more profit-motive vested interest in human settlement, they would have sent someone (I'm thinking Alicia/ Beth) south to engage. And they would have much more info rather than the vague description given by Dietrich.
Last, half the towns is a lot. And no concrete witnesses? It sounds quite incredible :D
Probably both Isley & the "demon" have been doing demolition. But I think its a bit too early to make a real conclusion.
No, the Organization would not send Alicia/Beth south for several reasons, one of which is Riful. They leave their HQ unprotected and who knows if the other Abyssal One will take advantage of it. In addition they have no idea where Priscilla is, or if they think they know where she's at, her supposed place at Isley's side would discourage an attack.
As for the towns, Isley may be forced into holding/hiding in them by this Demon. If the Demon starts wiping out Isley's food supply, his territorial turf will shrink naturally. This makes him both potentially weaker as an opponent but also narrows down the search for him. You're right that the Demon is probably not out for territory...it's probably out for blood and killing Isley, a rival. If destroying towns helps narrow the search/hunt for Isley, then I'm sure this "Demon" would have no problem carrying such an action out.
Then there is the Org's intel on the situation. Obviously the Org is better informed about the situation than they're letting on. Dietrich herself knew what this thing was when it showed up. That's not to say she knew it was a Dragonkin or something else. It is quite likely that due to fear of its Claymores finding out the truth, the Org is only telling them the bare essentials.
About the lack of witnesses, if you had two Abyssal-level fighters ransacking the South in order to keep going after their fights, wouldn't they annihilate whole towns to compensate for the energy used? I'm saying it isn't necessary for people to survive for Claymores to find out what's been going on. After all, one deserted/damaged town after another would tell them something's going on.
MisterJB
2008-12-06, 07:21
Hey! That's possible :heh: But I don't think Isley will taste that nice. Last we saw of him, he seems to be in quite an anal mood.
Luciela would surely taste much better
Luciela would surely taste much better
I'd like to second that idea. Although I'm sure you'd only "dig in" after she was long dead. Nothing worse than eating something only to realize it has begun to eat you too (I'm referring to Luciella's many mouths she can create across her body).
Anyways, does anyone have any bets, now that we know of a new power, whether or not it eats humans? It's got to eat something, though nobody seems to know for sure what. Anyone willing to explain what it eats and why?
MisterJB
2008-12-08, 07:05
I'd like to second that idea. Although I'm sure you'd only "dig in" after she was long dead. Nothing worse than eating something only to realize it has begun to eat you too (I'm referring to Luciella's many mouths she can create across her body).
Anyways, does anyone have any bets, now that we know of a new power, whether or not it eats humans? It's got to eat something, though nobody seems to know for sure what. Anyone willing to explain what it eats and why?
Actually, that's something I like about Luciela, all those mouths are... suggestive
Anyway, the demon should eat humans because I just don't think that Isley would kill half of the South. It doesn't seem his style.
But if that thing is something that the Organization created just to destroy AB, something like Alicia, then it should eat AB
What if is Alicia who has gone berserk, the Organization couldn't call it Abyssal One because the Soul-Link project was a secret. But they called Luciela Abyssal One, oh i'm confused now
Actually, that's something I like about Luciela, all those mouths are... suggestive
Anyway, the demon should eat humans because I just don't think that Isley would kill half of the South. It doesn't seem his style.
But if that thing is something that the Organization created just to destroy AB, something like Alicia, then it should eat AB
What if is Alicia who has gone berserk, the Organization couldn't call it Abyssal One because the Soul-Link project was a secret. But they called Luciela Abyssal One, oh i'm confused now
Yes JB, you of all people, judging from how much reaction I've seen to your posts on the image thread, would say that:twitch:. But hey, at least we're not dealing with certain individuals on this thread (to our knowledge) that skip certain chapters because of nudity, so you're fine. :D
I would agree that it seems this Demon (we really should put this to a vote as to what it is) probably eats humans. It does seem totally unlike Isley to go on a rampage of eating, particularly when he's living in amongst a group of humans.
I rather doubt this is an Organization creation...the reason being is that Claymores are afraid of it, and it doesn't appear to be directed from the east. Instead it's settled in the south, which may be closer to the mainland and where the Dragonkin roam. Again, on the Alicia theory, it seems fine right up until you notice the eyes had irises (hers do not) and there is no outline of armored hairlets. So I'm going to take a minor risk here and guarantee you it is in fact, not Alicia. It could be Beth, but it isn't Alicia.
MisterJB
2008-12-09, 10:18
Yes JB, you of all people, judging from how much reaction I've seen to your posts on the image thread, would say that:twitch:. But hey, at least we're not dealing with certain individuals on this thread (to our knowledge) that skip certain chapters because of nudity, so you're fine. :D
I would agree that it seems this Demon (we really should put this to a vote as to what it is) probably eats humans. It does seem totally unlike Isley to go on a rampage of eating, particularly when he's living in amongst a group of humans.
I rather doubt this is an Organization creation...the reason being is that Claymores are afraid of it, and it doesn't appear to be directed from the east. Instead it's settled in the south, which may be closer to the mainland and where the Dragonkin roam. Again, on the Alicia theory, it seems fine right up until you notice the eyes had irises (hers do not) and there is no outline of armored hairlets. So I'm going to take a minor risk here and guarantee you it is in fact, not Alicia. It could be Beth, but it isn't Alicia.
Hum? what do you mean by reactions?:heh:
Let's not badmouth that person who doesn't like nudity, she is my friend too.
Have you ever hunted and animal? A good way to hunt an animal is to go after what they feed on, that will make our prey uses drastic measures.
I think that is what the demon is doing, he is killling human and those are the Isley's food. That is making Isley use drastic measures
KillerYomaFromSpace
2008-12-09, 11:09
Hum? what do you mean by reactions?:heh:
Let's not badmouth that person who doesn't like nudity, she is my friend too.
Have you ever hunted and animal? A good way to hunt an animal is to go after what they feed on, that will make our prey uses drastic measures.
I think that is what the demon is doing, he is killling human and those are the Isley's food. That is making Isley use drastic measures
consideering that Priscila has survived without food for more than 7 years, and that Isley's town looked fine, I don't think thats an option.
anyway here is my theory...
I stil think that Isley is not necessarily a bad guy, he is a knight, his awakened form and his behavior are proof of that.
That town is Priscila's hometown (is in the south)
The town is surprisingly in a very good condition (Helen or Deneve were surprised of how lively it was), meaning that Isley may be protecting it, like being the guardian of his master's castle.
He saw two hooded people entering the town, he probably know that no strangers get near that place because of his huge youki, so he wanted to check it out, he probably know most people in town already.
Isley youki-tricked Helen's leg trying to find out their intentions, then he got pissed at Deneve's lie when he saw the tip of her sword (you don't tell lies to a knight and expect him to respect you) also at this point he may have seen them as assassins entering his town, the lowest form of life to a knight.
and finally the lie thing would be some kind of moral message, because in the same chapter we saw a complete opposite behavior from Dietrich's part, she would rather die than tell a lie.
I think it would have been better if Dietrich was with them in that town.
That's how I understood the chapter.
oh, and for the shape of his face, I'm 95% sure that the demon is one of those dragon-f*cks (they have no oficial name yet so I can call them whatever I want =P)
Hum? what do you mean by reactions?:heh:
Let's not badmouth that person who doesn't like nudity, she is my friend too.
Have you ever hunted and animal? A good way to hunt an animal is to go after what they feed on, that will make our prey uses drastic measures.
I think that is what the demon is doing, he is killling human and those are the Isley's food. That is making Isley use drastic measures
I should have said that it was more like joking around about the whole thing with no intent to harm. Let's be honest, your friend has confused some people here. A number of us still cannot figure out why they'd still be reading Claymore after one takes a look at the chapters. There is implied rape, mutilation, and nudity throughout this manga. Hopefully your :innocent: friend can balance things as a fan of Claymore, although I'm not sure how that is possible. :confused:
I agree with you on the hunting analogy...the best way to hunt Isley is to wipe out his food supply, and once that's nice and contained, you strike!
consideering that Priscila has survived without food for more than 7 years, and that Isley's town looked fine, I don't think thats an option.
anyway here is my theory...
I stil think that Isley is not necessarily a bad guy, he is a knight, his awakened form and his behavior are proof of that.
That town is Priscila's hometown (is in the south)
The town is surprisingly in a very good condition (Helen or Deneve were surprised of how lively it was), meaning that Isley may be protecting it, like being the guardian of his master's castle.
He saw two hooded people entering the town, he probably know that no strangers get near that place because of his huge youki, so he wanted to check it out, he probably know most people in town already.
Isley youki-tricked Helen's leg trying to find out their intentions, then he got pissed at Deneve's lie when he saw the tip of her sword (you don't tell lies to a knight and expect him to respect you) also at this point he may have seen them as assassins entering his town, the lowest form of life to a knight.
and finally the lie thing would be some kind of moral message, because in the same chapter we saw a complete opposite behavior from Dietrich's part, she would rather die than tell a lie.
I think it would have been better if Dietrich was with them in that town.
That's how I understood the chapter.
oh, and for the shape of his face, I'm 95% sure that the demon is one of those dragon-f*cks (they have no oficial name yet so I can call them whatever I want =P)
I don't buy the Isley is a good guy in this Island War saga, especially after his words to "wipe" all life out in Pieta. He has a clear ruthless streak hidden by an overarching "nice" personality. Sure, one minute he could be offering to help you up, but the next he could be slicing you up just like he did Deneve. Isley in my eyes is just as power-hungry as the other factions.
About the dragon-expletives:twitch:, ah, I believe their unofficial names are Dragonkin or Descendants of Dragons (thus why you see DoDs mentioned). I believe the demon is one simply for timing issues.
What I mean is that we first saw an awakened being in chapter 23 or so, but didn't hear about them until 25, and didn't see them another one involving Claire until Chapter 26/27. Yagi has done something similar with Dragonkin I believe: we first hear about them in chapter 79, but it may be our first sighting has already happened in chapter 86. My guess is that Yagi likes to give the story a little time to develop before introducing new beings into it.
MisterJB
2008-12-09, 15:06
well, you didn't harm me but it's true, Claymore is a gore manga.
I too can't really believe that Isley is a good guy but I wouldn't say that he is hungry for power, too.
If he wanted power he could have conquered the Island when he Awakened.
Dragon-f*ucks lol.
KillerYomaFromSpace
2008-12-09, 15:08
I don't buy the Isley is a good guy in this Island War saga.
I didn't say good, I said not necessarily bad
About the dragon-expletives:twitch:, ah, I believe their unofficial names are Dragonkin or Descendants of Dragons (thus why you see DoDs mentioned). I believe the demon is one simply for timing issues.
exactly, unofficial
I didn't say good, I said not necessarily bad
exactly, unofficial
Well, Isley isn't necessarily bad, but he's a very mixed shade of gray. Let me put it this way, he stopped Priscilla from rampaging, but afterwards ordered the death of every person in Pieta, then let all of his comrades get killed by Alicia/Riful simply because he didn't prefer groups.
While it appears he doesn't go on rampages, his non-conquest of the island so far may not be because he's uninterested in getting rid of his foes. True, he doesn't seem very territorial about land like Luciella did, nor as lustful of power as Riful. But at the same time we don't know whether he would've tried to take over the island. It could be that the "Demon" ruined Isley's plans (matter-of-fact, I think we can all agree on that) for whatever he was planning to do.
Does anyone else expect the Ghosts to show up in a few chapters to save Helen/Deneve from getting crushed in a battle of two titans?
There is one thing I just thought of: the Ghosts currently have no Abyssal-level fighters amongst them. Miria is top dog at somewhere near No 2, but is not a No 1 fighter yet to our knowledge. After all, if she were, they'd have ended Riful's life themselves knowing that she had Claire/Helen/Deneve as backup.
So what I'd like everyone to consider, is how do the Ghosts counter an Abyssal One or this Demon?
1.) Do they do it by numbers (which I don't think will work so well)?
2.) Do they counter an Abyssal One by ambushes/taking advantage of fights between them (again, how are they supposed to survive a straight-on fight?)?
3.) Do they develop their abilities (Claire/Miria/Miata) to the point of an Abyssal One?
4.) Or do the Ghosts make up for it with a new recruit everyone here is calling "Raciella", or the merged form of the two sisters?
My guess is that they will all get stronger, but it may be their key turning point is turning a partially awakened "Raciella" to their side. Why? Quite frankly because I do not believe Renee can actually awaken the pair. It's going to require Claire/Cynthia's abilities to pull it off, and I got a feeling Riful will force them to do so (but Claire will have a surprise for her by not fully awakening the new being).
Youtuber
2008-12-10, 01:29
There is one thing I just thought of: the Ghosts currently have no Abyssal-level fighters amongst them. Miria is top dog at somewhere near No 2, but is not a No 1 fighter yet to our knowledge. After all, if she were, they'd have ended Riful's life themselves knowing that she had Claire/Helen/Deneve as backup.
There are no Abyssal Level killers aside from Teresa and Priscilla. Even Isley was unable to kill Luciela, she escaped and Raphela got the drop. It takes a power far above the Abyssal Ones to insure death. Of the two left I believe Riful to be more resistant to Claymore attack. Her composition counters common sword attacks. Aside from Roman armies all swordsmen attack shoulder to pit or a straight drop from overhead with a 2h sword. Infact Japanese swordsmith were required to prove their swords were capable of such a cut or they couldn't get a license to work as a smith.
After the latest chapter, you can still put "Ghosts" and "AOs" in a same sentence? :rolleyes: Unless there is a major plotkai, I don't see how it happens (I mean Ghosts and AOs being in a same sentence)
KillerYomaFromSpace
2008-12-10, 04:07
The objective of the ghosts was never to kill the abyssals, the objective was always the organization, that's why Miria was so worried about Alicia, she is actually the only thing they really need to worry about, and she probably knows that they can't kill her on their own.
but then she said: "the battle with the organization will involve the abyssal ones" and that led me to think... just exactly how will it involve them?, how can Miria be sure of something like that unless its part of her plan?, wouldn't fight the organization AND the abyssals be a little bit too much? specially when she knows they all together can't defeat Riful alone (or they would probably have done so when they saved Audrey and Rachel)?
I think her plan involves making everyone fight, and then deal with what remains.
thats my speculation, so I don't know how far I am from the truth, but at least I'm sure of this: going around on abyssal hunts and making everyone your enemy is not what she has in mind and certainly not the fastest route to destroy the organization. That would be Zapp Brannigan's plan
MisterJB
2008-12-10, 12:26
The objective of the ghosts was never to kill the abyssals, the objective was always the organization, that's why Miria was so worried about Alicia, she is actually the only thing they really need to worry about, and she probably knows that they can't kill her on their own.
but then she said: "the battle with the organization will involve the abyssal ones" and that led me to think... just exactly how will it involve them?, how can Miria be sure of something like that unless its part of her plan?, wouldn't fight the organization AND the abyssals be a little bit too much? specially when she knows they all together can't defeat Riful alone (or they would probably have done so when they saved Audrey and Rachel)?
I think her plan involves making everyone fight, and then deal with what remains.
thats my speculation, so I don't know how far I am from the truth, but at least I'm sure of this: going around on abyssal hunts and making everyone your enemy is not what she has in mind and certainly not the fastest route to destroy the organization. That would be Zapp Brannigan's plan
If I'm not wrong they want to get revenge on Isley too because of what he did in the North.
Just look at Deneve's reaction in this chapter
But obviously, Helen didn't give a rat :D. And so did Miria. If they want to take the Org down they must utilize every single piece of chess they have (Isley, Riful, Rafaela, Priscilla etc...), not wasting their lives and those pieces (most likely their lives though)
KillerYomaFromSpace
2008-12-10, 12:41
If I'm not wrong they want to get revenge on Isley too because of what he did in the North.
Just look at Deneve's reaction in this chapter
They have all the right to hate Isley, but it was never an objective.
And that does not even conflict with my point, because if I'm right, Isley would be another casuality in that war, without the ghosts having to fight him directly.
They have all the right to hate Isley, but it was never an objective.
And that does not even conflict with my point, because if I'm right, Isley would be another casuality in that war, without the ghosts having to fight him directly.
I do believe you mean casualty.
Now then, I've got an important point to get across, and its in the form of a question.
Does Renee have the Yoki manipulation skills to actually awaken the fused remains of Rafaela/Luciella?
Think about this carefully before answering.
For instance, if Renee does not have the skills it MIGHT mean:
1) Claire/Cynthia will be forced to do it by Riful (though Claire/Cynthia might surprise Riful by only doing it "partially")
Well anyways, feel free to speculate on whether Renee can actually do it. Keep in mind that reading chapter 84 is a very good idea when it comes to backing your opinion.
Uhm, I have a feeling that whoever disturbs the twins will end up very badly. So if someone has to die, let it be Renee. There is another good reason for this though: her hair style must be a nightmare for Yagi :heh:
chibamonster
2008-12-14, 03:54
He probably has his assistants draw it like he does with the backgrounds :D. Yes, Renee should be able to awaken the twins. She can sense their conciousness which Riful has been unable to do. And if she can't do it she's dead anyway.
MisterJB
2008-12-14, 06:08
I hope she can but I don't think so. SHe only touched them and was chopped to pieces
I hope she can but I don't think so. SHe only touched them and was chopped to pieces
I agree. It would seem pointless for Riful to talk about how Claire/Company would "pay for" Claire's betrayal of what Riful thought was an agreement of cooperation/alliance.
Making that statement relevant to the story would suggest Renee will run into difficulties. Riful knows Claire is a master at Youki manipulation (especially after 7 years of training), since she was able to turn back after repeatedly going over her limit. If Renee does indeed have further difficulties, Riful need not look far to find a more skilled youki manipulator.
I'm not saying this is guaranteed to happen, but Renee's early troubles suggest it very well could. My prediction for the Island War is that Helen/Deneve are saved by Helen's quick thinking (and big mouth: "Riful was right about you!") and the Demon attacking Isley. Meanwhile, within the next two chapters we'll see Claire/Co. captured by Riful. Or at least confronted by Riful.
Unless Claire's or the others going over their limits another time produces a large surge in fighting ability, my prediction that they'll need an uber-Abyssal fighter still stands.
New Questions
Do you think that "Raciella" will join the Ghosts under the right circumstances? Plus what do you see happening to the Island War were that to happen?
Ice_Kold
2008-12-24, 10:50
then what about the Armies of the mainland they might have there own powerful
warriors or perhaps even monsters that could best the AB of the North and west
well thats what i think
Yeah there are probably really strong fighters on the "mainland" but it's going to take a long time to actually get to that part in the manga because a chapter a month is going to drag on. :p But I can't wait to read what happens.
But yeah I think that there are even more powerful fighters than Priscila, Riful, and Isley. :D:D
There is one thing I just thought of: the Ghosts currently have no Abyssal-level fighters amongst them. Miria is top dog at somewhere near No 2, but is not a No 1 fighter yet to our knowledge. After all, if she were, they'd have ended Riful's life themselves knowing that she had Claire/Helen/Deneve as backup.
...It seems you have been hit by one of Yagi's curveballs. In Chapter 87, Helen almost wasted Isley by herself.
...and the power rankings go wild!
Anyway, I think that for the time being we'll have to mark the "demons" as an extra faction because we really don't know if they're a new faction or from the organization or what.
In Chapter 87, Helen almost wasted Isley by herself.
And that is spoiler or confirmed? I really hope it is not true.
MisterJB
2008-12-31, 13:01
And that is spoiler or confirmed? I really hope it is not true.
The raw is out and its comfirmed but Helen admited herself that she wasn't doing any damamge and they fougth with Isley on human-form
The raw is out and its comfirmed but Helen admited herself that she wasn't doing any damamge and they fougth with Isley on human-form
It seems, to a number of people, especially on the main chapter 87 thread, that there is something very wrong with Isley. Which now prompts my latest in a series of "Balance of Island War power" evaluations.
The sides as we now know them:
Organization
They still (presumably) have Alicia/Beth on their side, in addition to Nos 3, 5, 7, and 9. However they have now lost Nos 4, 6, and possibly 8, and two of those (Nos 4 (due to No 1 potential) and 6 (Organization's "Eye")) are quite valuable. They still are the most powerful faction on the Island at present, though that may change rapidly. If the "Demons" are in fact their experiments, then they may have figured out something to counter Abyssal Ones without using their own Abyssal-level fighters, Alicia/Beth.
Strengths: plenty of numbers, Alicia/Beth (presumed), possible control of "Demons" against Abyssal Isley
Weaknesses: Lack of good intelligence, possibility of Riful gaining a new Abyssal ally, defection possibilities
Super-abyssal (Priscilla)
While Priscilla is literally a small girl now due to her refusing to eat, she still possesses, within her, the ability to crush any remaining Abyssal on the island, and that would probably include Alicia/Beth.
Strengths: unrivaled Youki, fighting abilities, regeneration
Weaknesses: thinking, "Demons"?, comrade is human Raki
Riful/Western Abyssal
Riful, besides Isley, is in the most tenuous position of the factions. She has a former No 3 as an underling, and is thus somewhat less vulnerable due to the "backup" effect. She also seems unhindered in her fighting abilities, something that Isley may now no longer have.
With her is the Organization's No 6, Renee (Lune), who is attempting to awaken the sisters, Luciella & Rafaela. Both possessed roughly equivalent strengths, so it is likely if awakened the new merged being would be at or above her level. However this would make Riful's faction either the most powerful or soon non-existent.
Strengths: full-fledged Abyssal fighting abilities, Dauf as underling, possible new Abyssal ally
Weaknesses: lack of good intelligence on some enemies (Isley/Priscilla for instance), vulnerable to possibility of new creation turning on her/and or being stronger than her
Ghosts
Two of the Fab Four (the "Truly Troublesome Two", Helen & Deneve) are involved in a fight for their lives against the Abyssal One Isley. That said, they're fighting against him surprisingly well, and should the Demons intervene soon, will probably live if they work together.
As yet we have yet to see Miria/Tabitha/Galatea/Miata/Clarice involved in the current adventures, but at LEAST Miria & Tabitha are likely to come south to rescue Helen/Deneve after sensing Helen/Deneve's Youkis for the first time in seven years. If Isley survives as well and they beat off the attack, then expect a change of heart from Isley (most likely due to his realization that they are not there as a pair of advance scouts for the Org).
The Ghosts are not as strong as Priscilla, Riful or the Organization (yet), but they still have a number of advantages, including stealth, pragmatic leadership and two fighters who would give even Riful a workout.
Strengths: Generally well-rounded fighters, stealth, best intelligence on the island (and will get even better if Helen/Deneve are rescued by "Captain Miria"), excellent base of operations (it's hard to beat a fortified city with its own military force for a base of operations), possible partnering with Isley against the Organization (sounds absurd until one considers their position and Isley's-they technically need what the other offers)
Weaknesses: "Curiosity killed the cat" Helen/Deneve, no No 1s among them, currently divided into more easily killed teams
Isley/Southern Abyssal (former?)
Isley is an Abyssal One who has seen better days. Gone is the sleek, confident ally of Priscilla. In its place is a desperate person who is not even fighting to his full potential against Helen/Deneve. He is hunted/haunted by "Demons" and seems to have something wrong with him. If he survives, he will come face to face (most likely) with the commander of the Claymores he ordered to die (Miria), and possibly most unbelievable of all, it is apparent Isley needs allies.
Let's just say by attacking the girls he's NOT off to a good start with winning over the Ghosts anytime soon, never mind his history of killing their comrades.
Strengths: Excellent fighting ability, regeneration abilities, massive Youki
Weaknesses: Something is clearly wrong with him, no allies, fighting ability is far short of where it SHOULD BE
Demons
Unknown, except for the fact that they destroy towns in a hunt for Isley, and thus are either giving him a serious affliction/disease or are wearing him down and thus very dangerous creatures.
They may be the tools of the Organization
Strengths: Able to hunt an Abyssal One, smell, presumably combat ability
Weaknesses: We'll find out shortly won't we?
Dragonkin/Organization's Enemies
The hardest to understand of the factions interacting, but presumably they have their hands involved with everything the Organization does.
Strengths: Intelligence, covert operations, stronger of mainland factions
Weaknesses: a controllable AB, something Rubel is only too well aware of
MisterJB
2009-02-04, 14:50
I would like to see one of yours "Balance of Island War Power" now that we know what the Abyssa Feeders are, revan5
I would like to see one of yours "Balance of Island War Power" now that we know what the Abyssa Feeders are, revan5
Very well MisterJB, I'll give you a nice new one.
Well, it seems we finally have some answers for who/what/ and who directs the Abyss Feeders, or as I prefer to call them, the Abyssal Feeders. As it turns out, the Organization now has at least 11 of them chasing Isley relentlessly, and combined they are too quickly regenerating, numerous and powerful a force for even an Abyssal One to deal with on their own. With this knowledge, we can finally see a massive shake-up of the balance of power, plus place Isley more accurately in it, seeing as he proved he can still transform to his full strength.
Big Picture:
The Island War's Balance of Power, seven years on, has profoundly shifted. The Organization, once dangerously vulnerable, now has a way to neutralize and possibly kill the Abyssal Ones it worries about. However, the entry of the Ghosts into the war clouds the picture.
Isley at the moment is in a desperate situation, and he may yet prove malleable to an alliance with Riful, the Ghosts or both. Why? Whenever the balance of power profoundly shifts, there are alliances to make up for it. Witness the alliance of Russia and China to counter American/NATO might since the end of the Cold War. As recently as 1962 they fought a war over their borders near Manchuria and were often ardent Cold War enemies, not allies. Miria is not dumb, though she and the others will have some very hard feelings about the situation concerning Isley.
He is after all, the Abyssal One whose forces slaughtered 17 of their friends in the Northern War. But both sides have something to gain from the arrangement, and it goes likewise with Riful. The only reason why it hasn't happened sooner? Trust, or a lack of it between Abyssal Ones. If the Org attempts to overwhelm its enemies with Abyss Feeders and Claymores, the impossible may become possible. The only thing that unites people like nothing else is an external threat of great magnitude.
Oh sure, it'd be like allying yourself with the Devil, but the US has already done that back in WWII. We allied ourselves with the communist USSR under Josef Stalin, a state under the rule of a man some would argue was just as terrible if not more so than Hitler. For the sake of winning the war it had to be done. It remains to be seen if the Ghosts under Commander Miria will come to a similar conclusion.
With that, let's list the sides and see where they stand.
Coming in at Number One:
1) The Organization
-Their pure callous research into human/Awakened hybrids has cemented their position at the top. Quite literally they have found a way to produce an army of hybrid Awakened beings that go after only what they teach them to. You might say, well, that's a one trick pony! You might be right in some regards, but it's a mass-production one-trick pony like the Model T.
Why do I say that? Does anyone else find it particularly interesting that the Organization used Isley's former subordinates' flesh to create the Abyss Feeders? Then perhaps we should be paying attention to the fact that they've been killing every Awakened Being they possibly could in the last seven years. Why? There is a strong possibility that they're creating an army of new Abyss Feeders to go after Riful and finally rid the island of her troublesome presence.
"Yeah, but they need a piece of Riful's flesh to train them with!"
"You have much to remember Padawan!"- A quick glance at Chapter 69 pages 12-13 reveals that her flesh is indeed cut, and if they can find its location, the Organization would be golden on unleashing another, separate group of these things upon Riful. Let's face it; they're in a race against time to prevent her awakening another Abyssal One. So how do you crash the party and ruin her day (and possibly kill everyone involved)?
"Oh, I know, I know! They'll unleash Alicia and take her out!" "Yes, and pigs will fly! No, no and no! It will never happen!" Alicia is the Organization's equivalent of point-blank defense. If they were to use her they'd be risking everything. So, for the moment, if they can create another group of Abyss Feeders in adequate numbers fast enough to take on Riful, that's what they'll do. Why? Because, quite frankly, Dietrich even said they had pushed on into a new path of research and shut down the path involving Alicia's development seven years ago. The likelihood they have two pet Abyssal-level Claymores is absurdly unlikely due to the fact that they need identical twins and for nothing to go wrong. Fact is, Alicia is unstable enough, why add to that danger?
So what now for the Org? Expect them to attempt to crash Riful's "party", maintain their Abyss Feeders' pursuit of Isley, and maybe, just maybe, start trying to go after the Ghosts. That is assuming of course they in fact know how many there are and where they're located. Given the fact that Riful stole their "Eye", don't count on them figuring out where the Ghosts are headquartered anytime soon.
Coming in at Number 2:
2) Superabyssal Priscilla faction?-possibly linked with Isley
This is pretty self-explanatory for everyone here. Priscilla is stronger than even Isley, the strongest of the Abyssal Ones. Although she is weakened, her strength has yet to be rivaled. Raki may act as a constraint, but don't count on her hunger not acting up anytime soon. At the moment the second strongest player in the land (faction-wise) is not yet a player, but expect that to change sometime.
3) Riful/Western Abyssal(s?) faction
Riful is in what you'd call an ideal situation. Let's review her key advantages shall we?
a.) Is at full strength
b.) Has a possible Abyssal-level or greater ally that Renee might be able to awaken
c.) Has stolen said Claymore, Renee, and singlehandedly accomplished several things
i) Deprived the Organization of valuable intelligence
ii) May awaken a new ally of Abyssal level strength
iii) Hurt the Organization's Claymores' collective fighting strength
d.) Is not being hounded by Abyss Feeders yet
e.) Has a powerful underling in Dauf
Riful is what we would call in political terms a "Potential Superpower". Oh sure, she may be a great power on the Island, but that's all she is. What she needs is the strength of a powerful ally like a merged "Raciella" to complete the transformation. There are of course risks to Riful, like a new group of Abyss Feeders or, although unlikely, Alicia herself. The Ghosts AT THE MOMENT are not a threat to her, but if she were to attempt to kill Claire at any point, expect her to get a nasty surprise. Then of course there is the fact that not too far away is Priscilla, who may, under Raki's guidance, intervene at any time.
But what is Riful's biggest danger?
Renee not being able to awaken a new Abyssal One. Let's face it, without a new ally, the Org will simply overwhelm everyone on the island eventually with their new human/Awakened hybrid "Abyss Feeders". Riful you could say is risking it all even if she appears confident. The problem for Riful is that the Org is not nearly as powerless as she thinks they are.
Also, there is a strong chance that Riful's new "pet" may turn on her. It may not go so well for her thereafter.
Tied for Fourth Place
Ghosts/Isley(Southern Abyssal
4) Ghosts
I ranked the Ghosts at the same level as Isley for one reason: stealth. Why? Because it is what allows them to go wherever they want with little interference. Isley on the other hand is being hounded by a monstrous group of "Abyss Feeders", which are proving all but impossible to shake. For this reason, Isley's considerable might has been effectively neutralized in some fashion by the Organization.
The Ghosts on the other hand are capable of taking down Awakened Number 2s, and would probably prove a nasty challenge to kill even for Isley or Riful. Why? Because they keep increasing in numbers and are rapidly patching together an intelligence awareness no other faction on the Island, outside of the Dragonkin/Org Enemies', can rival.
In addition they have Rabona as their headquarters.
"Big deal! The Org's Abyss Feeders and Isley have annihilated half the towns in the south! What happens when he comes to Rabona?!?"
"I expect he'll get quite the greeting party!"
What I mean by that is that Rabona is not just occupied by the Ghosts, but also a large number of human soldiers, all of whom are protected by massive city walls and a moat. In addition they have not one but two "Eyes", Tabitha and Galatea, at hand. Isley likely would be greeted outside the city walls by a number of Ghosts, and given his predicament, the last thing he needs is more enemies. An armed force of elite ex-Claymores will probably not be on his list of things to fight given his slightly weakened condition. Especially ones with an enormous grudge against him.
As for Riful, well, one can only speculate. For the Organization, Rabona is what you'd call the "nightmare scenario". It is essentially the capital of human civilization on the island. If there is to be a unified human revolt against the Organization, it will be directed by Rabona's leaders and the Ghosts. In addition, it is well-fortified and maintains a considerable military force to protect itself. The Ghosts are far more formidable with Rabona's military and political strength behind them than without. Those discussions Miria had with the city's leadership were likely less than innocuous to the Org's interests.
Let's face facts, the Org doesn't have the manpower to face an army if it came to that. If they unleash their claymores against the populace, their experimenting may rapidly come to an end. Dietrich is just one of possibly many disillusioned Claymores who may join the Ghosts. If they all turn against their masters expect the revolution to come full-circle.
Now you may be asking, if pressed, wouldn't the Ghosts just abandon Rabona? They might, but there are far more advantages in staying than leaving for them. In addition they are hardly the types to let innocent humans die if they don't have to. The Org may kill the city's inhabitants for their sympathies for the Ghosts, which Miria no doubt knows. Expect them to stay for awhile.
4) Isley
Same level as Ghosts only due to his greater fighting ability as an Abyssal One. Look for him to start moving out of the south sometime soon. Why? He needs food, and his food supplies are dwindling where he is. Expect him to ally himself with one of the other factions before too long (it'd be the smart thing to do, if only for self-preservation's sake).
6) Dragonkin/Organization's Enemies
At the moment the quiet players on the island, but that may eventually change. Their masterful operations may yet bring ruin to the Organization. But it's not like they won't have help bringing them down!
Awakened
2009-02-07, 09:30
Isley can force Helen, Deneven and Dietrich to fight with him. The ZACS cannot locate them but Isley can sense their yoki. If he comes up with a plan, he can use them to escape or kill the ZACS.
Isley can force Helen, Deneven and Dietrich to fight with him. The ZACS cannot locate them but Isley can sense their yoki. If he comes up with a plan, he can use them to escape or kill the ZACS.
I am actually expecting him to do something along those lines just as the three are leaving. Of course Isley will not be in nearly as good a position once Miria shows up. Despite being an Abyssal One, Miria would at this time still be something of a challenge for him to take down. I expect he'll figure out quite quickly that the Ghosts are anything but normal Claymores.
I doubt they'll kill the ZACS, but if Miria were to gather the whole team...I mean, once Claire is in the picture things change for the Ghosts. Claire's windcutter would be perfect for use against these things!
Awakened
2009-02-07, 12:26
I am actually expecting him to do something along those lines just as the three are leaving. Of course Isley will not be in nearly as good a position once Miria shows up. Despite being an Abyssal One, Miria would at this time still be something of a challenge for him to take down. I expect he'll figure out quite quickly that the Ghosts are anything but normal Claymores.
I doubt they'll kill the ZACS, but if Miria were to gather the whole team...I mean, once Claire is in the picture things change for the Ghosts. Claire's windcutter would be perfect for use against these things!
I think the ghost would be perfect against the ZACS. Clare, Deneven and Miria on the front line, Helen patiently waiting for an opening to attack. The rest could be in defensive mod, staying close to help, but not actively on offense.
MisterJB
2009-02-07, 13:25
thanks revan5, that's some really good analysis. The organization passed from a suicide level to the strongest faction on Continent.
I just don't think that Isley is on the same level than the ghosts.
He is probrably stronger than all of them toghether but the ghosts don't have 11 naked zombies trying to eat them alive...
thanks revan5, that's some really good analysis. The organization passed from a suicide level to the strongest faction on Continent.
I just don't think that Isley is on the same level than the ghosts.
He is probrably stronger than all of them toghether but the ghosts don't have 11 naked zombies trying to eat them alive...
There's a small problem with the "I just don't think that Isley is on the same level" as the Ghosts comment MisterJB.
1) Isley's strength has effectively been neutralized
2) The Ghosts can multi-task and he cannot
3) The Ghosts are now a military power IF Rabona's army is under their command
4) Isley could never hope to mount a human/Claymore rebellion against the Org
5) The Ghosts are far more aware of the strategic picture than Isley is.
So sure, if we were to suppose that Isley took on the Ghosts he'd beat them, but given who is pursuing him, the weakened state he would be in thereafter would probably cost him his life.
What I'm saying is that it would be suicidal for Isley to take on Miria and the entire team, which keeps growing you'll notice. The Ghosts are at the same level not purely for strength reasons, but for reasons dealing with their stealthy nature, their massively fortified headquarters, their outstanding intelligence (which will allow them to attract Claymore defectors and mount a rebellion), their possible political/military alliance with Rabona and its military/political might, and their numbers, which gives them a flexibility Isley cannot match.
IF they join forces then they'll outstrip Riful's faction and become a real threat to the Organization. It remains to be seen if this will happen, but I expect the Ghosts will shortly be talking to Isley (quite bluntly in Helen/Deneve's cases) about all sorts of things.
MisterJB
2009-02-07, 15:01
There's a small problem with the "I just don't think that Isley is on the same level" as the Ghosts comment MisterJB.
1) Isley's strength has effectively been neutralized
2) The Ghosts can multi-task and he cannot
3) The Ghosts are now a military power IF Rabona's army is under their command
4) Isley could never hope to mount a human/Claymore rebellion against the Org
5) The Ghosts are far more aware of the strategic picture than Isley is.
So sure, if we were to suppose that Isley took on the Ghosts he'd beat them, but given who is pursuing him, the weakened state he would be in thereafter would probably cost him his life.
What I'm saying is that it would be suicidal for Isley to take on Miria and the entire team, which keeps growing you'll notice. The Ghosts are at the same level not purely for strength reasons, but for reasons dealing with their stealthy nature, their massively fortified headquarters, their outstanding intelligence (which will allow them to attract Claymore defectors and mount a rebellion), their possible political/military alliance with Rabona and its military/political might, and their numbers, which gives them a flexibility Isley cannot match.
IF they join forces then they'll outstrip Riful's faction and become a real threat to the Organization. It remains to be seen if this will happen, but I expect the Ghosts will shortly be talking to Isley (quite bluntly in Helen/Deneve's cases) about all sorts of things.
You got me wrong. I meant that the Ghosts are above Isley right now
You got me wrong. I meant that the Ghosts are above Isley right now
Ok, sorry for the misunderstanding. Now then, I rarely hear about what people think about the idea of the Ghosts leading Rabona's human millitary.
Is it because it is easy to view humans as not essential to the plot or because their strength is so much less than our heroines?
If you're a skeptic of humans playing a part in this, remember, ultimately the Organization relies on support from human villages/towns/cities paying them to extinguish Yoma. If the Ghosts can unify the human population of the island together, then they'll be golden on launching the full-scale overthrow of the Organization.
Without human support or even Abyssal support (be it from Isley/Riful/Priscilla/Raciella), the Ghosts have little chance of pulling their rebellion off. If the humans revolt, the Organization would be exposed for what it really is, and that might cause a perilous amount of disloyalty in the ranks.
Anyone else have any thoughts on how humans will play a part in the upcoming war with the organization?
Awakened
2009-02-08, 02:53
Humans could fight if the Org send ordinary Yomas against them. If the Org send anything stronger they will have to hide behind the ghost and use some kind of heavy rage weapons.
Gangsta Spanksta
2009-02-09, 01:03
If you're a skeptic of humans playing a part in this, remember, ultimately the Organization relies on support from human villages/towns/cities paying them to extinguish Yoma. If the Ghosts can unify the human population of the island together, then they'll be golden on launching the full-scale overthrow of the Organization.
I don't think the org needs the monetary support of the humans. To me it is all a big control thing in an Medieval type setting version of the Matrix. The org taking the money the villagers so desperately need is all part of the illusion. Perhaps, if the org did it for free people would be suspicious? I think there is far more commerce going on, on the mainland that dwarfs anything a few little villages could come up with.
Ancient Soul
2009-02-09, 17:55
Humans could fight if the Org send ordinary Yomas against them. If the Org send anything stronger they will have to hide behind the ghost and use some kind of heavy rage weapons.
Would be cool to have a battle : Rabona vs The ORG. ;)
Rabona's Army vs a few hundreds youma gathered by The ORG and send towards the city.Would not be the first time when a city is attacked by youma in large number (the village where Irene gathered her team come to mind).Of course Miria would be the Fieldmarshal.Cid will be the commander of cavalry and Galk that of infantry.
I think that the tactic used by Cid & Galk against Agatha (shield wall doubled by pointed spears\halebards) or throwing halebards\spears would work quite well against youmas.Maybe a third row of swordsman to chop quickly any impaled youma will add to their chances to win.I'm not sure f a youma can jump over the city walls of Rabona since they are quite tall so either the battle would be at the city gates (good) or in open terrain (bad).The youma (back in Rabona) runned away when a group of soldiers approched and he was one of the strongest youmas!
We should remember that Agathat praised Cid and figured out that he fought youmas before.So i humans could tell who is a youma and who is not will have not much problems (by this i mean that they will not go extinct!:D) killing them even if in large numbers.
Of course Rabona may tell the truth about The ORG to the entire island but exept Rabona's forces thre are no other trained troops across the island to fight.The people's problem is not only the youmas.Since the north was destroyed the economy nearly collapsed (see Raki's village) , with the south half-destroyed most likely many people were displaced and moved towards the central region or west (the villages where Helen&Deneve and Clare went were quite populated).People would be more worried about food & shelter that youmas.So for the moment revealing the truth i doubt would have a great impact.We should not forget that each village\city appear to be on his own with just maybe religion (mostly in the west\center) making a connection between them.Thre is no central gouvernment.This is a medieval like period.I think is next to impossible for the island to muster a reliable army to hunt down youmas and maybe even weak AB.Also people just don't feel yoki...yet there may be people who may have a good six-sense to find them.
MisterJB
2009-02-09, 18:05
Even if the Yoma can't jump over the walls, they can use their claws to climb them and there are always the flying Yoma
Ancient Soul
2009-02-09, 18:39
Even if the Yoma can't jump over the walls, they can use their claws to climb them and there are always the flying Yoma
You are right...i was blinded by Rabona's Walls (they are quite impressive) ;) :D
Forgot about the flying youmas.Not to much of them thru manga.They seem to be very few compared with other youmas.They use their ability rather to flee that to fight.Also when we saw them they fighted in normal form!So i doubt we will see to much of them in a battle.And even if we will do Rabona soldiers showed against Agatha that they can throw quite far and high their weapons! :cool:
As for youmas climbing the walls they would be vulnerable so if are enough defenders any youma army who would siege the city would suffer quite a lot of loses before reaching the top of the walls.Also one single youma in Rabona Know History infiltrated the city.I'm quite sure he entered (in disguise) thru the city gates! :heh:
I think that youmas would be in advantage in open terrain rather than in a siege. :)
Wiggle wyrm
2009-02-09, 18:50
If it came to open war, I think the Organization would have more to worry about than lost revenue. Let’s not forget that about possibility of the Organization’s Claymores turning on them. I’m sure they would take a dim view on the Org lying to them (about everything), using them as guinea pigs, killing innocent people and slaughtering their families with yoma.:twitch:
47 Claymores, 7 ghosts, Miata, Clarice and Galatea joining up with humans and attacking the Org is a pretty formidable force. Sure the Org has Alicia, Beth and the Abyssal Eaters, but they can’t be everywhere, aren’t completely controllable or optimized for defending yourself. Especially when all it would take is pissed off Claymore to wipe out the whole command structure of the Org.
Wiggle wyrm
2009-02-09, 19:38
On a separate note, how does the get yoma to do what they want? Somehow I think it would be difficult getting Yoma to follow directions.
Yoma: So what do you want?
MiB 1: You see that massive city with the army of heavily armed men lined up on its walls?
MiB 2: Good, fly over and kill them.
MiB 1: There should also be seven cloaked Claymores in there too. They’ve been going around beating up our Claymores and killing every AB in sight.
MiB 2: Yes, kill them too.
MiB 1: Galatea the former number 3 is somewhere in there too. She’s an expert at finding and manipulating Yoki.
MiB 2: She defiantly needs go.
MiB 1: And don’t forget about Miata. She’s the Claymore that was expected to be the next number 1, but was too psychologically unstable.
MiB 2: You’ll have to kill her as well.
Yoma: :twitch:... (flies off)
MiB 1: :confused:
MiB 2: :eyebrow:
On a separate note, how does the get yoma to do what they want? Somehow I think it would be difficult getting Yoma to follow directions.
Yoma: So what do you want?
MiB 1: You see that massive city with the army of heavily armed men lined up on its walls?
MiB 2: Good, fly over and kill them.
MiB 1: There should also be seven cloaked Claymores in there too. They’ve been going around beating up our Claymores and killing every AB in sight.
MiB 2: Yes, kill them too.
MiB 1: Galatea the former number 3 is somewhere in there too. She’s an expert at finding and manipulating Yoki.
MiB 2: She defiantly needs go.
MiB 1: And don’t forget about Miata. She’s the Claymore that was expected to be the next number 1, but was too psychologically unstable.
MiB 2: You’ll have to kill her as well.
Yoma: :twitch:... (flies off)
MiB 1: :confused:
MiB 2: :eyebrow:
I think we're forgetting that all seven of those Claymores are probably single-digit level in fighting abilities now. With an army behind them and additional recruits to the cause (Galatea, Miata, Clarice and possibly Renee & Dietrich), they make for a formidable opponent. Imagine sending in hundreds of Youma only to see them systematically wiped out through crossbow shots and claymore strikes in front of the massive city walls of Rabona.
If they send hundreds of Youma, expect the Organization to get a nasty shock. The soldiers of Rabona have experience with things far worse than mere, regular Youma, and with the Ghosts behind them, they'd know in advance of the attack.
Of course, a lot of things depend on them all being there. They are more vulnerable right now, and if Isley were to join them (I think it would be an alliance of convenience even if not desired), they'd finally be capable of holding off almost any attack. Not bad for a less than month old rebellion...
Anything less than an all-out attack on the combined force of Ghosts and Rabona's army will be defeated. Looks like they need to bring out the Abyss Feeders on a new hunt. Now that'd be a fight.
With Galatea as blind as she is, I still can't help but wonder how it was she could sense buildings and people without Youki during battles. I mean honestly, how did she do it?!?
MisterJB
2009-02-18, 18:38
Maybe the Demon eats AB and Isley is a potential snack:heh:
High-five! Anyone?:heh:
High-five! Anyone?:heh:
:heh: Back at you. Anyways MisterJB, I didn't see a response to my last post. Anything in Island War you thought of that I haven't?
MisterJB
2009-02-18, 19:02
:heh: Back at you. Anyways MisterJB, I didn't see a response to my last post. Anything in Island War you thought of that I haven't?
Thanks.:)
Ah, sorry about that.
Well, Rabona's army could play an important factor against the Org. Its basically useless against anything like Agatha&Rigardo or an Abyssal One. Even so, an army large enough could be an headache to the Org. For example, the Ghosts are figthing against Alicia, they are getting a beating and they can't reach Beth because she is being protected by 45 or 43 Claymores. Well, its in a situation like this that Rabona's army could give them a hand, if the army is composed by 500-600 men then against 43 Claymore I think they could have a good hchance. If the army could distract the Claymore, then Beth would be wide open for an attack from Yuma, Cynthia, Tabitha and Galatea while Miria, Clare, Helen, Deneve and Miata are keeping Alicia busy.
Of course, we have yet to see if Miria can put Rabona's army fighting for her.
If Isley survives this and joins Miria&co then probrably only Raciella or Priscilla (if Raki is against the Silver King) would be a threat to them.
Still I think that the one allying with the Ghosts will be Riful, she will see what the Org did to Isley and understand that with Alicia and the AE, the Org is almost invencible at the moment (I think I just contradicted myself)
Then, there is the Raciella factor. Claymore is so unpredictable right now. I just hope Yagy won't introduce anything new until etheir RIful or Isley are dead
Normal youma would be next to useless against the ghosts, Noel and Sophia had had no trouble and even had time to mess about against a village full of them, my bets Miria will just do her trade mark sigh and say "Yuma deal with them.
Holy cow, this month's chapter really shook up things! That's not to say the last few chapters haven't done that! As such, we now need yet another new balance of power assessment for the "Island War".
Wow, what a change. With Isley dead, the Island War has entered a much more dangerous stage. One of the things you learn is that when there is a slight imbalance of power, it is much more likely to have a war than if both sides are equally matched or completely mismatched in strength. Which is precisely where we find ourselves at present time with Isley's death, which has wiped out the Island War's balance of power.
Island War's Top power: The Organization
Not only do they have Alicia/Beth, but they have more than 11 Demons at their disposal at one time. In the meantime their numerous, if overstretched Claymores, provide them with a formidable backup in strength should everything go wrong. With their Abyss Feeders (Demons) wiping out Isley after 7 years of constant wear and tear, they have now completely upset the Island's relative peace.
But that isn't to say they have some major issues. Riful at the moment heads the list. Should Riful awaken a new Abyssal "pet", the Organization will be thrown into utter chaos. Alicia/Bess would not be enough to take on two Abyssal Ones. Instead the Abyss Feeders' backup seems to be the crucial backup the Organization needed to make the strike they've just ordered.
Besides possibly facing a second Awakened, they are likely to see the Ghosts get drawn into the conflict. Also, the chance that Priscilla might get drawn in, something they hadn't counted on (an Abyssal even stronger than Riful), must surely rank as their greatest nightmare. As I always say, "What you don't know CAN kill you."
Island War's new #2 Power: The Ghosts
Why? Well, it has everything to do with intelligence, the nature of the Organization's Abyss Feeders, and their relatively secure base of operations (Rabona).
Let's start with intelligence. The Organization, due to Rubel's traitorous nature, has no idea who they're facing in these encounters with unknown parties. For any great power, being in the dark is a bad thing. It gives the advantage to the side with the better knowledge of the other: the Ghosts. The Ghosts know where the Org is primarily based. They know about Alicia's vulnerabilities, they know about the mainland, they know about the Org's real purpose, they know about the Abyss Feeders now (some of them at least), the death of Isley (Helen/Deneve), and they are slowly picking off deserters from the ranks of the Organization's Claymores.
"So what's the big deal about that?"-Well actually, it's a significant problem for the Org, since if Alicia/Bess fight the Ghosts, the Ghosts will know exactly what to do. More worryingly, they've shown the ability to bring down Awakened #2s with ease. Alicia may prove quite a challenge, but if Bess is targeted, all bets are off. The Org could very easily lose control or just purely lose its "controllable Abyssal One". With fewer Claymores to back them up, the Org has to fall back on the Abyss Feeders.
This is a significant problem for them. Abyss Feeders need pieces of flesh in order to train them. They currently have no pieces of any of the Ghosts, so hunting them with A.F.s is out. The only way they might be able to do it is likely to turn their own Claymores against them: have the Abyss Feeders be trained to devour humans in Rabona. It's dirty but logical, and would force the Ghosts to fight. Of course they need to know where the Ghosts live, and they don't even know who the Ghosts are, let alone their real purpose. Thus the Ghosts have a huge advantage in surprise at present.
Island War's #3 & most vulnerable power:
The Western Abyssal (Riful+Dauf):
Riful does not know Isley is now dead, though she does know about Alicia. However, she does not know Alicia's weakness to our knowledge, and even if she does, she will have no idea what the hell the Abyss Feeders are. They are a deadly combination, and only the presence of Dauf is keeping me from writing her off completely. In addition, the possibility she may awaken a new Abyssal One is just that, a possibility.
Even if it does happen, the chances for it turning on her are high. A few things that may save her include:
The presence of the Ghosts in the West, who may intervene to prevent the Org from wiping out every other power. They may even form an alliance of necessity with Riful while they hold their noses. Also a possible danger or help is Priscilla, who I have cut off as a power until she shows some eagerness to use her power.
Island War Power #4: The Organization's enemy/Descendants of Dragons
They just got surprised by the audacity of the Org sending Alicia/Bess along with new Abyss Feeders after Riful. They may yet intervene to help out the Ghosts again in some way.
Dead power: Isley
His death has shaken everything up. All bets are now off.
Dormant power: Priscilla (Super-Abyssal)
Needs to awaken or show some purpose for me to rank her as an active power.
Thoughts anyone?
MisterJB
2009-03-04, 17:54
Isley's last fight was epic. He was the Awakened Being who gave us more cool fights. Stupid Zombies and stupid Org and stupid Rimuto and stupid Rubel
Anyway, how the mighty have fallen. The Abyssal Ones were the invencible powers in the Continent in the past and look at their state now.
One is dead, another is in a comma and the last one is in suicide state. It's time for the New Age!
Good analysis like always. Riful will probrably be the one to follow Isley to the grave, I don't really think that Riful would ever ally with the Ghosts. She seems to be preety pissed at Clare and allying with someone who has the bad habit of trying to make friends by Awakening don't seem Miria style.
After defeating Isley, the Org is invencible at the moment. Alicia's strenght was based on RIful's power (Witch's Maw arc) so it's safe to say that Riful can't defeat the Dark Ones, especially with a group of more than 11 AE helping Alicia & Beth. The biggest doubt is if the AEs could be used to protect Beth while Alicia fights.
Of course, Racyella's Awakening will surely shake the foundations of the Claymore World. It might even force the DoDs to show themselves.
Still, I don't think that knowing that Isley is dead is a great advantange to the Ghosts. The death of an Abyssal will surely be felt by Tabitha or Galatea in Rabona and Riful in the West.
Isley's last fight was epic. He was the Awakened Being who gave us more cool fights. Stupid Zombies and stupid Org and stupid Rimuto and stupid Rubel
Anyway, how the mighty have fallen. The Abyssal Ones were the invencible powers in the Continent in the past and look at their state now.
One is dead, another is in a comma and the last one is in suicide state. It's time for the New Age!
Good analysis like always. Riful will probrably be the one to follow Isley to the grave, I don't really think that Riful would ever ally with the Ghosts. She seems to be preety pissed at Clare and allying with someone who has the bad habit of trying to make friends by Awakening don't seem Miria style.
After defeating Isley, the Org is invincible at the moment. Alicia's strength was based on RIful's power (Witch's Maw arc) so it's safe to say that Riful can't defeat the Dark Ones, especially with a group of more than 11 AE helping Alicia & Beth. The biggest doubt is if the AEs could be used to protect Beth while Alicia fights.
Of course, Racyella's Awakening will surely shake the foundations of the Claymore World. It might even force the DoDs to show themselves.
Still, I don't think that knowing that Isley is dead is a great advantange to the Ghosts. The death of an Abyssal will surely be felt by Tabitha or Galatea in Rabona and Riful in the West.
Actually what would force the DoDs to show up is if the Organization discovered that partial awakening were a possibility. Perhaps Claire might be forced to surpass her limits in the upcoming showdown or if she's trapped between Riful and Alicia and has to fight her way out.
The other way I could see the Org becoming aware is if the Ghosts manage to merge Rafaela with Luciella's remains, but keep her from completely awakening.
One thing though, don't assume the Org is invincible. Priscilla's still around after all, and we have yet to see the kind of carnage she might inflict at a most inopportune time for the Org. The possibility of a Raciella is still there.
My guess is Riful is either going to ally with the Ghosts, or she's going to go out spectacularly. It'll probably involve her trying to get even with Claire when she discovers Claire's group in the west, then Alicia/Bess & the Abyss Feeders show up and all hell breaks out.
This is followed shortly thereafter by Helen/Deneve showing up, and possibly a mini-fight with Dauf, who gets his ass beaten, and/or killed. Last of all Miria & Tabitha show up and a MIB finally identifies our heroes, to Rubel's horror.
With the rebellion beginning shortly thereafter, the DoDs/Org Enemies decide to intervene to prevent the Ghosts' abilities from falling into the Organization's hands. Expect to see Dragonkin after Riful is dead and the Org knows what it's up against. The problem for us is that we have no idea which side they'll primarily target: the Ghosts or the Organization? Arguably either way they can't lose!
There are several wild cards in all of this:
1) Priscilla
2) Raciella-is she awakened, or only partially?
3) Awareness of partial awakening by Org
4) Abyss Feeders
5) Humans/military of Rabona
6) Who wins the fight, Alicia or Riful?
On and on it goes...
While I doubt they'll come, there is a chance Miata/Clarice/Galatea may even show up given the situation. Defending myself on the Alicia front, it must be said that the existence of Abyss Feeders as backup and the death of Isley were what finally allowed for the Org's using her to take down Riful.
Wow, I think it's too bad that this thread fell out of favor, considering it's exactly what we should be discussing. Man, looking over my last post, it seems I was off "slightly". Never fear though, the Dark Lord of Animesuki's claymore community has a track record to keep of making grand claims that (mostly) don't pan out.
So let's sum up where the hell the war is right now, shall we?
Island Superpower-The Organization
Now under tremendous threat since we last saw them. Claire's fast-track awakening of "Raciella's" has just split the race to be top power on the island wide open. That said, the Organization has a lot going for it. They have not one but two Abyssal-level claymores (Alicia/Beth) who are somewhere near Riful's level in fighting abilities. Their Abyss Feeders have demonstrated that they can kill Abyssal Ones, given enough time and replacements. They possess at least two packs of them now, giving them somewhere around (10-30) Abyss Feeders to attack Riful and whoever else threatens their reign. But of course, there is THAT PROBLEM: they only go after the target when the Org can acquire part of their flesh. This makes them a "second-strike" weapon, or at best a support weapon.
The Org's backup, as always, is the 47 claymores it possesses and the numerous trainees it has. The Org at the moment holds the most firepower, but they also have the most to lose. My fearless prediction?
The Org is going to fight all-out, with an attack on Rabona to drag the Ghosts' out to fight the Abyss Feeders. How the hell does that happen? Getting the Abyss Feeders conditioned to seek out human meat. In the meantime, I predict they will lose at least one of their Abyssal-level claymores (most likely Alicia).
Number Two Power-The Ghosts
While they may lack an Alicia/Beth, the Ghosts have not one, two, but three No 1 potential fighters: Claire, Miria and Miata. The supporting cast, although small, is excellent at fighting (all single digit level fighters besides Clarice). The real key is that the Ghosts have an unprecedented level of knowledge about the Org, they have fighters that excel, they are impossible to sense (excepting when they release yoki). If the new being Claire has "awakened" is pulled back, then they're well on their way to challenging for top power status. If not, then all bets are off!
Western Abyssal (Riful+Dauf) "The Third Power"
Talk about not catching a break. Even if Alicia is considering adding the new "Raciella" to her target list, the first on that list is none other than everyone's favorite awakened being. Riful & Dauf, should they go back to the dilapidated castle, face a possible pincer movement from Claire/Raciella and Alicia/Beth/Abyss Feeders. My only conclusion is that no matter what happens, Riful/Dauf are doomed. But that doesn't mean it can't be done in a splashy manner, eh?
The Wild Cards
Super-Abyssal One Priscilla
New Super-Abyssal One "Raciella"
The Organization's enemies/Dragonkin
The Big Picture
Where do I see this going? I see all sorts of scenarios playing out, depending greatly on what the new Super-Abyssal being born is like. If it's like Luciela, it'll most likely go on a wide conquering rampage. If it's partially-awakened, the new being could be child-like, veteran-like, or like a sister to Claire and the Ghosts. The Org's response should be nothing less than extreme to any scenario.
Where I ultimately see this going is Claire revealing her partially-awakened status to the Organization, much to Rubel's chagrin. After the initial battle royale, I expect the Organization may have a final showdown battle OR they'll start bringing in warriors in from the mainland, along with armies. Why do this? They need Claire, and warriors like her, very badly! Don't expect the Dragonkin & their allies to take this lying down. If Rubel informs them, you should expect that the mainland war will come directly onto the island itself.
Of course, that'd leave the Ghosts in the middle! But hey, crazier things have happened...the Abyss Feeders anyone or the giant revelations of chapters 79-82?
Here's a challenge to Shiek, Ryuken, MisterJB, Cammila, Clarakiss and everyone at the community: Tell me where you see the Island War going and if you disagree with me, speak up (even if you don't disagree with your master Shiek927)!
Shiek927
2009-06-12, 23:02
The Big Picture
Where do I see this going? I see all sorts of scenarios playing out, depending greatly on what the new Super-Abyssal being born is like. If it's like Luciela, it'll most likely go on a wide conquering rampage. If it's partially-awakened, the new being could be child-like, veteran-like, or like a sister to Claire and the Ghosts. The Org's response should be nothing less than extreme to any scenario.
Where I ultimately see this going is Claire revealing her partially-awakened status to the Organization, much to Rubel's chagrin. After the initial battle royale, I expect the Organization may have a final showdown battle OR they'll start bringing in warriors in from the mainland, along with armies. Why do this? They need Claire, and warriors like her, very badly! Don't expect the Dragonkin & their allies to take this lying down. If Rubel informs them, you should expect that the mainland war will come directly onto the island itself.
Of course, that'd leave the Ghosts in the middle! But hey, crazier things have happened...the Abyss Feeders anyone or the giant revelations of chapters 79-82?
Here's a challenge to Shiek, Ryuken, MisterJB, Cammila, Clarakiss and everyone at the community: Tell me where you see the Island War going and if you disagree with me, speak up (even if you don't disagree with your master Shiek927)!
Well, it's hard to predict the future - could anyone of predicted Raciella's existance or the arrival of the Feeders? It's never wise to predict what's happening too far down the line as Yagi likes to throw those curve-balls.
Nevertheless, Raciella's presence has clearly shaken everything up - everything rides on 2 things: Who does she stand with, and does she have a brain?
Will she have intellect of her own? Or will she be a big all-powerful baby like Miata? With Rafaela emptying her conciousness - her emotions, her life experiences, her memories, EVERYTHING into Claire, Raciella's mind is mostly coming from Luciella. will she join with Claire as she feels a connection to her because of Rafaela? Will her instincts of her past Awakened life reawaken? What happens to the fate of everyone on the island now depends on what happens when this thing hatches from it's egg and how it perceives the world around it.
These things however are very certain to me: Riful and Alicia's demise are coming. It was very shocking to me to discover Alicia had yet to fight Riful. With Rafaela awakened, Renee is utterly useless, and Riful will no doubt rocket back to her castle for Raciella, which could have very bad results. IF however Riful does meet with Alicia, Dauf is sure to lose his head, and Alicia is sure to die as well - She is one big walking failure, and not once has Riful ever allowed her true power to be measure. No doubt will Alicia die, and a weakened Riful will most likely die afterwards, either from Claire or Raciella.
Also, Claire, I truly believe, will reach AT LEAST borderline Abyssal level strength very soon. I've accepted the fact she has NOT gotten a physical increase in power through Rafaela, but her skills will no doubt serve her greatly enough to reach there. Claire's power has been rising faster and faster at an accelerating rate. Will she awaken in the near future? Very possible. I believe their has always been a 50/50 chance with her. If she meets Priscilla, those odds rise even faster. Claire has been preparing all her life to fight Priscilla, she has no reason to hold back whatsoever, perhaps even for Raki. When the time comes when awakens her full power, a force not seen since Teresa will arise. And if she gets Raciella under her control, Claire will become even stronger. Potentially, Claire's power is nigh-limitless, and with the amount of gifts she keeps recieving, from Irene's Arm, Flora's technique, to Rafaela's experiences, that just keeps getting higher.
One final note - The Claire/Raki/Priscilla meeting will happen very soon. Whether or not the map showing his location is accurate or not does not matter; Once this Raciella matter is dealt with, I'm sure the big meeting is the next thing to happen. And who knows, perhaps it occurs very soon, just because Yagi likes big disasters. Will Claire awaken? Will she fight Priscilla? Will Raki hold them back? The possibilities are endless and Yagi is sure to pick the craziest one.
And will Claire understand the road of self-destruction she is walking on? What is her grave mistake? Her selfish revenge? or something else? No one knows yet; but Claire is far from perfect. Whatever it is, Rafaela's chaotic memories are sure to point her in the right direction.
Well, it's hard to predict the future - could anyone of predicted Raciella's existance or the arrival of the Feeders? It's never wise to predict what's happening too far down the line as Yagi likes to throw those curve-balls.
Nevertheless, Raciella's presence has clearly shaken everything up - everything rides on 2 things: Who does she stand with, and does she have a brain?
Will she have intellect of her own? Or will she be a big all-powerful baby like Miata? will she join with Claire as she feels a connection to her because of Rafaela? What happens to the fate of everyone on the island now depends on what happens when this thing hatches from it's egg.
These things however are very certain to me: Riful and Alicia's demise are coming. It was very shocking to me to discover Alicia had yet to fight Riful. With Rafaela awakened, Renee is utterly useless, and Riful will no doubt rocket back to her castle for Raciella, which could have very bad results. IF however Riful does meet with Alicia, Dauf is sure to lose his head, and Alicia is sure to die as well - She is one big walking failure, and not once has Riful ever allowed her true power to be measure. No doubt will Alicia die, and a weakened Riful will most likely die afterwards, either from Claire or Raciella.
Also, Claire, I truly believe, will reach AT LEAST borderline Abyssal level strength very soon. I've accepted the fact she has NOT gotten a physical increase in power through Rafaela, but her skills will no doubt serve her greatly enough to reach there. Claire's power has been rising faster and faster at an accelerating rate. Will she awaken in the near future? Very possible. I believe their has always been a 50/50 chance with her. If she meets Priscilla, those odds rise even faster. Claire has been preparing all her life to fight Priscilla, she has no reason to hold back whatsoever, perhaps even for Raki. When the time comes when awakens her full power, a force not seen since Teresa will arise. And if she gets Raciella under her control, Claire will become even stronger.
One final note - The Claire/Raki/Priscilla meeting will happen very soon. Whether or not the map showing his location is accurate or not does not matter; Once this Raciella matter is dealt with, I'm sure the big meeting is the next thing to happen. And who knows, perhaps it occurs very soon, just because Yagi likes big disasters. Will Claire awaken? Will she fight Priscilla? Will Raki hold them back? The possibilities are endless and Yagi is sure to pick the craziest one.
And will Claire understand the road of self-destruction she is walking on? What is her grave mistake? Her selfish revenge? or something else? No one knows yet; but Claire is far from perfect. Whatever it is, Rafaela's chaotic memories are sure to point her in the right direction.
Oh I don't know Shiek, I think predicting that the Dragonkin will eventually wind up on the island is a pretty good bet. Consider if you will the stupidity of talking about and even showing them from a distance if they're never seen or heard from again. Yagi has a consistent universe, and in it everything happens for a reason (this is NOT BLEACH!). The Dragonkin are going to make an appearance, and I would guess sometime after the Org finds out about Claire being partially awakened.
After all, Rubel did specifically tell Claire not to reveal that little secret. Besides, who wouldn't want to see a bad-ass bunch of beings like the ones Yagi drew in Chapter 80 pages 2-3? Don't tell me you don't want to see the Dragonkin! Yagi did the same thing with awakened beings...he showed a quick glimpse and then hinted at them for a while, and then bam! We got our first Awakened Being battle. I think the same will be true of Dragonkin...and we'll finally find out why the Org needs controllable awakened beings to attack them. They must be some real bad-asses!
With regards to Claire, I think her strength is similar, however I think that her potential, despite being half of Teresa's supposedly, is probably double or more of where Claire's abilities are now. Why? Because Teresa was wiping the floor with Priscilla having her yoki at 75% and Teresa having hers at 10%! I imagine that Yagi was hinting Teresa was an absolute monster that was probably as powerful as 4 Abyssal Ones fighting all out.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I predict, after all the dust settles, that Raciella is going to be stopped by Claire from becoming a total monster. Why? Because her being the new "Top Boss" as it were would distract from the real conflict...the Organization vs. the Rebels (AKA the Ghosts) vs. the Dragonkin/allies. This greater conflict needs to be addressed much more than yet another unbelievably strong awakened being issue.
Shiek927
2009-06-13, 00:14
Oh I don't know Shiek, I think predicting that the Dragonkin will eventually wind up on the island is a pretty good bet. Consider if you will the stupidity of talking about and even showing them from a distance if they're never seen or heard from again. Yagi has a consistent universe, and in it everything happens for a reason (this is NOT BLEACH!). The Dragonkin are going to make an appearance, and I would guess sometime after the Org finds out about Claire being partially awakened.
If that's what you want to believe, fine. Frankly, I'm content with them never showing up at all. He had somewhat of a window of opportunity with the Demons, but he used what was already consistantly known, threw in a twist(operating with the flesh of the killed Awakened), and came out with something better.
What I like about Yagi is just that: he has a consistant universe, and because he has a consistant universe, he doesn't pull things out of his rear, EVER. EVERYTHING in Claymore is "seeded" long ahead of time so we can actually accurately predict what will happen next. Sure, it would have been nice for the Dragons to caught wind of this secret research facility, so they send in their secret spy\assassin(aka the Demon) that reduces the South to rubble. But he did something else, and frankly, as unbelievably and unfairly overpowered the AE's are, I like them better.
With regards to Claire, I think her strength is similar, however I think that her potential, despite being half of Teresa's supposedly, is probably double or more of where Claire's abilities are now. Why? Because Teresa was wiping the floor with Priscilla having her yoki at 75% and Teresa having hers at 10%! I imagine that Yagi was hinting Teresa was an absolute monster that was probably as powerful as 4 Abyssal Ones fighting all out.
I agree - Teresa's full power was over a Super-Abyssal(Priscilla), one who has strength equal to 2 Abyssal Ones. So, as crazy as it first seems, Your analysis of Teresa's full power being equal to 3 or 4 Abyssal Ones, is accurate.
And even with only 1/4 of her inside Claire, she still has all those other things going for her. It's as I said, Claire's natural strength may reach Abyssal-level quite soon, but her potential level has always been astronomical. If she ever fully-awakened, no-one would be able to stop her, no-one.
While I don't agree as much with the Dragon-kins coming, I also agree that Raciella will not become a new Abyssal One. The manga is moving past that stage into a new one very quickly - The time of the Abyssal Ones is over, I doubt Raciella will escape and set up shop as the new Abyssal one of the South or North. She is most likely to come out a big baby and reach out to Claire because of Rafaela.
It's not that I don't want to see the Dragon-Kin, but I'd rather have all these loose-ends at least tied up first(Claire and Priscilla's confrontation for one).
If that's what you want to believe, fine. Frankly, I'm content with them never showing up at all. He had somewhat of a window of opportunity with the Demons, but he used what was already consistantly known, threw in a twist(operating with the flesh of the killed Awakened), and came out with something better.
What I like about Yagi is just that: he has a consistant universe, and because he has a consistant universe, he doesn't pull things out of his rear, EVER. EVERYTHING in Claymore is "seeded" long ahead of time so we can actually accurately predict what will happen next. Sure, it would have been nice for the Dragons to caught wind of this secret research facility, so they send in their secret spy\assassin(aka the Demon) that reduces the South to rubble. But he did something else, and frankly, as unbelievably and unfairly overpowered the AE's are, I like them better.
I agree - Teresa's full power was over a Super-Abyssal(Priscilla), one who has strength equal to 2 Abyssal Ones. So, as crazy as it first seems, Your analysis of Teresa's full power being equal to 3 or 4 Abyssal Ones, is accurate.
And even with only 1/4 of her inside Claire, she still has all those other things going for her. It's as I said, Claire's natural strength may reach Abyssal-level quite soon, but her potential level has always been astronomical. If she ever fully-awakened, no-one would be able to stop her, no-one.
While I don't agree as much with the Dragon-kins coming, I also agree that Raciella will not become a new Abyssal One. The manga is moving past that stage into a new one very quickly - The time of the Abyssal Ones is over, I doubt Raciella will escape and set up shop as the new Abyssal one of the South or North. She is most likely to come out a big baby and reach out to Claire because of Rafaela.
It's not that I don't want to see the Dragon-Kin, but I'd rather have all these loose-ends at least tied up first(Claire and Priscilla's confrontation for one).
Well considering you did say that would happen soon, then what? Are we going to lapse into a predictable confrontation with the remaining Organization after one of the twins (or both) dies (or even if they don't)? Everyone keeps saying predicting Yagi is difficult, so wouldn't a straightforward fight between the two sides at this point be the "predictable thing"?
Right now he's proving his unpredictable bona fides. Before this chapter whether there would even be a "Raciella" was up in the air, as was the nature of Claire's interaction with the merged being.
I think introducing the Dragonkin/allies will add a very large measure of uncertainty to the storyline. After all, if they come with an army, what the hell do the Rebels do? What does the Organization do? My prediction is that Rubel's employers are not going to be so hands-off in their approach once the Organization finds out their "goddess"/holy grail warrior is on the island. If I were the Organization, I'd send every reserve to acquire Claire & the rest of the Fab 4 that I could.
Knowing that, I cannot imagine the Dragonkin/allies are going to let the war's progress for them reverse. Their solution? Kill the "goddess", Claire. You have to admit, that makes for one badass conflict. The "Ghosts"/Rebels up against it in Rabona, besieged by the Organization (or attacked), then having the Dragonkin go in to kill them. That sounds VERY YAGI-like!
Shiek927
2009-06-13, 01:44
Well considering you did say that would happen soon, then what? Are we going to lapse into a predictable confrontation with the remaining Organization after one of the twins (or both) dies (or even if they don't)? Everyone keeps saying predicting Yagi is difficult, so wouldn't a straightforward fight between the two sides at this point be the "predictable thing"?
Right now he's proving his unpredictable bona fides. Before this chapter whether there would even be a "Raciella" was up in the air, as was the nature of Claire's interaction with the merged being.
I think introducing the Dragonkin/allies will add a very large measure of uncertainty to the storyline. After all, if they come with an army, what the hell do the Rebels do? What does the Organization do? My prediction is that Rubel's employers are not going to be so hands-off in their approach once the Organization finds out their "goddess"/holy grail warrior is on the island. If I were the Organization, I'd send every reserve to acquire Claire & the rest of the Fab 4 that I could.
Knowing that, I cannot imagine the Dragonkin/allies are going to let the war's progress for them reverse. Their solution? Kill the "goddess", Claire. You have to admit, that makes for one badass conflict. The "Ghosts"/Rebels up against it in Rabona, besieged by the Organization (or attacked), then having the Dragonkin go in to kill them. That sounds VERY YAGI-like!
That does sound very cool: But what would the Organization use for an army until the Dragonkin show up? I always believed the filler generation would eventually show signs of rebellion, every Claymore warrior would. Miria's plan probably involves getting as many as possible to join her with the ultimate weapon: The truth.
The Organization are killing themselves from the inside out at an accelerating rate. Covering up lies with more lies only creates bigger "inconsistancy holes" to fill. Even the weak smug fillers must have alot of questions, and I doubt they're all unquestionably loyal like Dietrich.
That does sound very cool: But what would the Organization use for an army until the Dragonkin show up? I always believed the filler generation would eventually show signs of rebellion, every Claymore warrior would. Miria's plan probably involves getting as many as possible to join her with the ultimate weapon: The truth.
The Organization are killing themselves from the inside out at an accelerating rate. Covering up lies with more lies only creates bigger "inconsistancy holes" to fill. Even the weak smug fillers must have alot of questions, and I doubt they're all unquestionably loyal like Dietrich.
On the predicting who will "turn" front, I fully expect the current :innocent:"Miss Sweetheart Warrior of the Year", :innocent:Cynthia, to convert Renee to their cause. She, Renee and Yuma will be having a :argue:"heart to heart" discussion I have a feeling once the crisis blows over, and perhaps even during it!
How about anyone else seeing this? What are the chances that Renee turns against the Organization and joins the Ghosts? It'd make their third conversion yet, and a vitally important one, as Renee was a respected single-digit warrior. Sometimes all you need are examples in order to get people to follow...:heh:
Ultimately, how many warriors do you think will turn against the Org? I'm predicting at least two of the single digits, possibly three.
Shiek927
2009-06-13, 01:58
On the predicting who will "turn" front, I fully expect the current :innocent:"Miss Sweetheart Warrior of the Year", :innocent:Cynthia, to convert Renee to their cause. She, Renee and Yuma will be having a :argue:"heart to heart" discussion I have a feeling once the crisis blows over, and perhaps even during it!
How about anyone else seeing this? What are the chances that Renee turns against the Organization and joins the Ghosts? It'd make their third conversion yet, and a vitally important one, as Renee was a respected single-digit warrior. Sometimes all you need are examples in order to get people to follow...:heh:
Ultimately, how many warriors do you think will turn against the Org? I'm predicting at least two of the single digits, possibly three.
Well, Clarice and Miata already joined them more or less, so that's already a huge loss for them(a potential No.1). They've already had contact with single-digit warriors, so it's possible they may feel they owe debt to them for saving their hides. As for Renee, she may join them as well; Raki and Priscilla may actually have alot to do with it.
One thing is for sure: Alicia, the golden girl the Organization put so much effort into and only care for(which is why the filler generation even exists), may actually end up being the only good warrior they have....and I already predicted she would die soon at Riful's hands.
In other words.....they aren't looking too hot right now XD :heh:
Well, Clarice and Miata already joined them more or less, so that's already a huge loss for them(a potential No.1). They've already had contact with single-digit warriors, so it's possible they may feel they owe debt to them for saving their hides. As for Renee, she may join them as well; Raki and Priscilla may actually have alot to do with it.
One thing is for sure: Alicia, the golden girl the Organization put so much effort into and only care for(which is why the filler generation even exists), may actually end up being the only good warrior they have....and I already predicted she would die soon at Riful's hands.
In other words.....they aren't looking too hot right now XD :heh:
No I don't think they're looking too hot either. As regards to who slays Alicia, my prediction is it'll be Claire partially awakening all four limbs, and perhaps...(crosses fingers)...a full body (nee head) awakening that grabs the Org's attention because Beth sees it and survives to flee back to the Org. :heh::D
At least that's how I think they're going to find out about the partially awakened status. I think personally Claire will be forced far beyond her limits in order to slay someone, and that the Organization will be the ones to notice.
Perhaps then Rubel's employers will have to employ their "back-up plans", namely deploying our favorite yet-to-be-seen by our characters group we've all been clamoring for, the Dragonkin!
Seriously, I'm predicting that a single Dragonkin is somewhere around Agatha's level, with the leaders around Abyssal or perhaps even Super-Abyssal level. But if they can't match the greatest awakened beings in strength, they sure as hell can beat them in numbers.
Shiek927
2009-06-13, 12:13
No I don't think they're looking too hot either. As regards to who slays Alicia, my prediction is it'll be Claire partially awakening all four limbs, and perhaps...(crosses fingers)...a full body (nee head) awakening that grabs the Org's attention because Beth sees it and survives to flee back to the Org. :heh::D
At least that's how I think they're going to find out about the partially awakened status. I think personally Claire will be forced far beyond her limits in order to slay someone, and that the Organization will be the ones to notice.
Perhaps then Rubel's employers will have to employ their "back-up plans", namely deploying our favorite yet-to-be-seen by our characters group we've all been clamoring for, the Dragonkin!
Seriously, I'm predicting that a single Dragonkin is somewhere around Agatha's level, with the leaders around Abyssal or perhaps even Super-Abyssal level. But if they can't match the greatest awakened beings in strength, they sure as hell can beat them in numbers.
Well, It's hard to predict how strong an average Dragonkin is. However, keep in mind, Dragonkin are just the superweapons of the faction the Organization are fighting; The Dragonkin are not their own faction. The majority of the enemies that are being fought are human warriors - it's the Dragonkin at the "heart of enemy forces" that's truly dangerous.
That said, I also believe an average Dragonkin is as strong as a above-average Awakened Being - Rigardo, Agatha etc.
Sordes Pilosus
2009-06-13, 17:33
ravan5 Its been a while. Ive recently come to a conclusion that may answer some of the questions in the series. The Question itself is Rabona, there are probably many who wonders. Why would the Org tolerate a city blocking them out in their own laboritory, why has it not been pluaged as much as towns by Youma or Awakends before. The answer to that came to me the other day. The need a Big Source of humans available and safe.
Look at it this way. The circle of events are: Org Creates Youma, Youma attacks village and villagers die. Org sends Claymores to cleanup, New humans settle in the region after its been safe for a while, Repeat from first step.
The prinsiple is that since Rabona is located very central in the lands, its possible for people from there to help inhabitate almost any part of the island should things get a little out of hand. And with the top 3 digits located in the area its rather safe from Youma or Awakends in general since the Org keeps it "pure" for their own reasons. This also means, the Org will be very reluctant to wipe out Rabona just to get to the Ghosts. Which should give the Ghosts atlest some advantage should the Org come hunting for them activly.
ravan5 Its been a while. Ive recently come to a conclusion that may answer some of the questions in the series. The Question itself is Rabona, there are probably many who wonders. Why would the Org tolerate a city blocking them out in their own laboritory, why has it not been pluaged as much as towns by Youma or Awakends before. The answer to that came to me the other day. The need a Big Source of humans available and safe.
Look at it this way. The circle of events are: Org Creates Youma, Youma attacks village and villagers die. Org sends Claymores to cleanup, New humans settle in the region after its been safe for a while, Repeat from first step.
The prinsiple is that since Rabona is located very central in the lands, its possible for people from there to help inhabitate almost any part of the island should things get a little out of hand. And with the top 3 digits located in the area its rather safe from Youma or Awakends in general since the Org keeps it "pure" for their own reasons. This also means, the Org will be very reluctant to wipe out Rabona just to get to the Ghosts. Which should give the Ghosts at least some advantage should the Org come hunting for them actively.
That does sound like a good theory. After all, one does wonder just how people could keep the population from declining when the birth rate can't possibly keep up with a yoma wiping out 1-5 people a week in a small town. Of course, they could be more conservative and wipe out 1-5 per month, but even then the mathematics don't work out well once you get multiple yoma in a town. My guess is that the Org needs the claymores in order to keep their supply of humans for the experiment intact, and they need the yoma to keep those experiments going. So it's a two-for-the-price-of-one sort of deal.
My big interest in Rabona is what happens once Dietrich reveals to the Org the existence of the Rebels alongside Galatea? Do they send every top fighter they have after them in Rabona (namely Audrey, Rachel, Dietrich and Nina(# 3, 5, 8, & 9))? Or do they use Abyss Feeders and risk ruining their supply of fresh humans to draw the Ghosts out into a more "even" fight?
They can't possibly call in the twins, since those two are dealing with far more serious issues that cannot be ignored, no matter how much they'd like to take out the rebels/Galatea. Then of course there is the issue of figuring out what happened to Miata/Clarice. My guess is that they'll organize a strike team ASAP with the members I mentioned, plus perhaps more fighters. Though I rather doubt Galatea will let herself be taken off-guard. Even if they sent in the Abyss Feeders, they'd have advance knowledge by the screams.
I'm predicting that within five chapters the Org will know about the Rebels in at least some detail, including the fighting abilities of Helen/Deneve, and the fact that Dietrich stood no chance against Miria. I mean honestly, she barely even had time to grab her sword, much less pull it out! :p
What about you Sordes Pilosus & Shiek927? Does the Org order a strike immediately, or do they wait for more fighters? Do Miria/Tabitha stay in Rabona, and more importantly, do Galatea/Miata/Clarice?
I like that notion of the org preserving rabona for purposes of keeping the population at required levels a lot. makes perfect sense from their point of view.
also agree that they will find out about the ghost sooner then later.
I would think though, that the Org has no problem whatsoever with sending whoever and whatever is required to do the job to Rabona, no matter what might happen to the human population. They do risk loosing a strategic asset that way, but, with the ghosts resistance their whole island scheme is threatened which they simply cannot ignore and must take action against.
Also, it would make sense for the organisation to assume that the ghost themselves will leave the city, taking the fight away from it in order to protect the humans, which would be in the orgs interest. They surely know that people like miria and claire have moral standards, they would not hesitate to use that knowledge to their advantage.
So I think apart from A/B, if those two survive the next chapters, the abyss feaders are indeed a real posibility for the hunt for the ghosts, esp for leaders like miria or strong ones like claire. Then again, by using the abyss feaders the org would let go of any chance to study these interesting half awakend ghosts alive - but I guess once they realize their "normal" claymores are not really a match for the ghost they might revert back to brute force anyway
MisterJB
2009-06-14, 09:33
The Org is going to fight all-out, with an attack on Rabona to drag the Ghosts' out to fight the Abyss Feeders. How the hell does that happen? Getting the Abyss Feeders conditioned to seek out human meat. In the meantime, I predict they will lose at least one of their Abyssal-level claymores (most likely Alicia).
That doesn't work that way. If the Org gave human flesh to the AFs, that doesn't mean they would start attacking every single human.
For example, the gave flesh of Isley to them and they targeted Isley, who is an AB. Even so, Dietrich said that the Org still needed the flesh of Riful to make the AFs attack her.
If the Org wants the Ghosts to figth the AFs, what they should do is recover the leg of Yuma that Clare chopped off.
That doesn't work that way. If the Org gave human flesh to the AFs, that doesn't mean they would start attacking every single human.
For example, the gave flesh of Isley to them and they targeted Isley, who is an AB. Even so, Dietrich said that the Org still needed the flesh of Riful to make the AFs attack her.
If the Org wants the Ghosts to figth the AFs, what they should do is recover the leg of Yuma that Clare chopped off.
Well that is true that they COULD use Yuma's leg. But that would mean they could find it before it decomposed or was eaten by something. I think, given the fact that Yuma is a normal claymore, that they wouldn't risk it as much. Think about it...her scent is undoubtedly similar to that of their own troops. There is a significant chance it would backfire on them...
Wait a minute...(remembers Rubel's speech about wanting the Organization's experiment to backfire and destroy them)...maybe that's what will happen in order to tear the Organization apart.
With regards to humans...are you so sure that the scents will be different enough to avoid AFs killing every human they come upon if conditioned to eat human meat? It is unlikely whoever lost their limb would survive in this era you know. What makes you so certain AFs would ONLY go after a particular human?
Wait, I got it. The Org could cut somebody apart, and then lay a secret scent trail into Rabona. Then unleash the AFs, and watch them tear the town apart as everyone ran to avoid their wrath, thus triggering the town's destruction.
MisterJB
2009-06-14, 10:31
well, dogs can distinguish people pretty well by the smell. AFs should be able too
well, dogs can distinguish people pretty well by the smell. AFs should be able too
Well, that's an interesting analogy. Reminds me of Miata, it does. Why? I believe Miata is not the product of an ordinary surgery. Her ability to find Galatea also reminds me of the Abyss Feeders. Instead of a normal surgery, I believe they took the deceased remains of an Abyss Feeder and implanted it in Miata. That would explain her instability, but also her "sixth sense". Unwittingly, the Ghosts have turned the Organization's newest experiment against it.
Ha! So that must be it. The Abyss Feeders ARE NOT the end of the line. Hybrid claymores like Miata must be what they're working on right now. They're using Miata as a model weapon...You have to admit, she is better at fighting than AFs...can actually converse with people, doesn't have an innate hunger we know of. If she has the potential to surpass Alicia, then being implanted by Abyss Feeder flesh would help explain her immense potential.
So if the Ghosts have her fight against the Organization and they win, Rubel's words will literally come true.
irvinethearcher
2009-06-14, 19:11
I agree - Teresa's full power was over a Super-Abyssal(Priscilla), one who has strength equal to 2 Abyssal Ones. So, as crazy as it first seems, Your analysis of Teresa's full power being equal to 3 or 4 Abyssal Ones, is accurate.
No offense but i don't think we can make this follow linear laws. 2 AOs = 1 Priscilla :eyespin:. That's not the truth imo. IMO a mentally sane and motivated priscilla could probably fight hundreds of AOs simultaneously and beat them all because she simply is in a different league in everything, yoki, strength and speed. The AOs would wipe them selfs out trying to hit her because prisy would be to fast for them and even if she has only 5 times the yoki of an AO she would use it more efficiently. It would probably like in the Zatoichi fighting scenes ;) Perhaps after she destroyed half of the island and killed the number 200 she would die of exhaustion but i think you know what i want to say. It would be like riful fighting normal ABs. The fusion from raciella is the same thing. IMO here the whole thing will probably be more than the sum of its parts too.
I know this sounds crazy, but think about it. I don't want to think about what teresa really would be capable of. Theresa probably feared only one thing - herself.
To back this up we have seen how priscilla obliterated half of isley's body in a matter of seconds.
MisterJB
2009-06-14, 19:25
No offense but i don't think we can make this follow linear laws. 2 AOs = 1 Priscilla :eyespin:. That's not the truth imo. IMO a mentally sane and motivated priscilla could probably fight hundreds of AOs simultaneously and beat them all because she simply is in a different league in everything, yoki, strength and speed. Perhaps after she destroyed half of the island and killed the number 200 she would die of exhaustion but i think you know what i want to say. It would be like riful fighting normal ABs. The fusion from raciella is the same thing. IMO here the whole thing will probably be more than the sum of its parts too.
I know this sounds crazy, but think about it. I don't want to think about what teresa really would be capable of. Theresa probably feared only one thing - herself.
Now, isn't that going a bit too far?:eyebrow:
There were moments during their figth where Isley could have killed Priscilla (she was barely trying, I know) and it was clearly stated that two AOs would have been enough to kill her. That was why Isley hurried to defeat one of them, to prevent an alliance between the South and the West.
And 100 Awakened Beings is too much, even for an AO.
irvinethearcher
2009-06-14, 19:35
Now, isn't that going a bit too far?:eyebrow:
There were moments during their figth where Isley could have killed Priscilla (she was barely trying, I know) and it was clearly stated that two AOs would have been enough to kill her. That was why Isley hurried to defeat one of them, to prevent an alliance between the South and the West.
And 100 Awakened Beings is too much, even for an AO.
I said it before, it sounds crazy but this is how it works IMO. Priscilla held back the whole time.
When the mental block was released by isley's attack she began to talk about her dad and when she
does this there is only one effective countermeasure if you are not teresa - run:p
There was nothing clearly stated about the two abyssal ones. Isley thought so because he eliminates every possible thread and priscilla is no normal warrior who is reliable because of her mental instability. If it was that easy he could have send priscilla to fight against luciella, it would have been a short fight, i'm sure of it. But he could not control priscilla in that way, she is no weapon like alicia and beth. So he had to fight luciella himself. If riful had shown up he had lost his chance to wipe out another abyssal one. I am talking here of a mentally sane and motivated priscilla.
Riful killed the 10(?) ABs as if they were flies. 10 or hundreds or perhaps even thousand what is the difference if they can not hit or wound riful because she is in a different league. If you look at the fight do you see any way those ABs could have even scratched riful?
Like i said before this follows not necessarily linear rules.
Shiek927
2009-06-14, 19:47
Irvine, no offensive, but I think your letting your bias of Teresa get the better of you :heh:
Nobody is invincible, not Priscilla, not Teresa. These analysis' are extremely important because they help us get a good grasp on all the characters and where they stand.
A hundred? are you kidding? you seem to have the idea that all Awakened Beings are the same level. Remember, Abyssals Ones and beings greater then them like Priscilla are Awakened Beings. When an AB gets too weak and depletes too much power, they revert back to their human form, so it has a great deal to do with how much Yoki you have as well. Priscilla, while having so much that it seems limitless, obviously has to have some sort of limit.
Even if she were mentally sane and driven, no-one is invincible, not even the warriors who seem that way. I think Isley's death made that clear. And their are many other things to take into account, like for example Teresa's death. She was killed which easily showed she wasn't invincible. Was it a fair death? no, but no fight is ever "fair" in my opinion, whether here or in real life(unless done in a professional way, like real boxing). If a similar method was used against Priscillla; threatening to kill Raki if she doesn't surrender, such a method may be all it takes to "beat her". No fight is ever fair.
You seem to treat the AB's like their drones or cannon fodder and can be killed in one shot. Every AB is different in every way, including how much strength they have. Even if AO's are on a different league, depending on how strong the opponent is and how many of them are, anything is possible.
Theirs also the fact that such a number of Awakened Beings does not exist.
Like I said, you seem to just have your fanatacism of Teresa taking over your judgement XD
I said it before, it sounds crazy but this is how it works. Priscilla held back the whole time.
When the mental block was released by isley's attack she began to talk about her dad and when she
does this there is only one effective countermeasure if you are not teresa - run:p
There was nothing clearly stated about the two abyssal ones. Isley thought so because he eliminates every possible thread and priscilla is no normal warrior who is reliable because of her mental instability. If it was that easy he could have send priscilla to fight against luciella, it would have been a short fight, i'm sure of it. But he could not control priscilla in that way, she is no weapon like alicia and beth. I am talking here of a mentally sane and motivated priscilla.
Riful killed the 10(?) ABs as if they were flies. 10 or hundreds or perhaps even thousand what is the difference if they can not hit or wound riful because she is in a different league.
Like i said before this follows not necessarily linear rules.
Riful may be in a different league, but fundamentally, going by the fact that they are all bound by the same laws of claymore physics, I'd say eventually she'd be vulnerable due to exhaustion. Isley was no different facing the Abyss Feeders. Just because they're in a different league does not mean they play by different rules.
Also, the chances that there'd be a 100 sub-par, easily defeated Awakened beings are not that good. If she faces more than a few Rigardo/Agatha equivalents, she'll start feeling it despite being victorious. Hundreds or thousands of dead awakened beings at Riful's feet is completely unrealistic. At most we could expect dozens before chance dictates somebody strong enough to give her a real run-for-her-money comes along. After that, she becomes much more vulnerable to a battle of attrition.
You look at any wars in history, and you can find this. The armies of Nazi Germany were perhaps unmatched before 1941, but yet they were defeated in a war of attrition with the Soviet Union. Just because the Nazis only lost 5 million soldiers in World War II (plus a million or so civilians) does not mean they won against the Soviets, who lost 27 million soldiers and civilians!
irvinethearcher
2009-06-14, 20:06
Irvine, no offensive, but I think your letting your bias of Teresa get the better of you :heh:
Nobody is invincible, not Priscilla, not Teresa. These analysis' are extremely important because they help us get a good grasp on all the characters and where they stand.
A hundred? are you kidding? you seem to have the idea that all Awakened Beings are the same level. Remember, Abyssals Ones and beings greater then them like Priscilla are Awakened Beings. When an AB gets too weak and depletes too much power, they revert back to their human form, so it has a great deal to do with how much Yoki you have as well. Priscilla, while having so much that it seems limitless, obviously has to have some sort of limit.
Even if she were mentally sane and driven, no-one is invincible, not even the warriors who seem that way. I think Isley's death made that clear. And their are many other things to take into account, like for example Teresa's death. She was killed which easily showed she wasn't invincible. Was it a fair death? no, but no fight is ever "fair" in my opinion, whether here or in real life(unless done in a professional way, like real boxing). If a similar method was used against Priscillla; threatening to kill Raki if she doesn't surrender, such a method may be all it takes to "beat her". No fight is ever fair.
You seem to treat the AB's like their drones or cannon fodder and can be killed in one shot. Every AB is different in every way, including how much strength they have. Even if AO's are on a different league, depending on how strong the opponent is and how many of them are, anything is possible.
Like I said, you seem to just have your fanatacism of Teresa taking over your judgement XD
This has nothing to do with teresa - fanatism. There are lots of real world examples where linear laws are not working. For example if 100000 normal students trying to win a game of chess against yuri kasparov playing at the same time you know who probably would win because of the communication overflow. Even if all those brains have more computational power. For example in the IT world the size of an optimal project is 30 - 40 people perhaps now(old data) even smaller because of this communication overhead. If you let more working on the project you are not faster. You can become only faster if you have better people working on the project.
I was talking about those ABs who send by isley - above average ABs. Not like rigardo or dauf.
For me those were mere cannon fodder.
Riful may be in a different league, but fundamentally, going by the fact that they are all bound by the same laws of claymore physics, I'd say eventually she'd be vulnerable due to exhaustion. Isley was no different facing the Abyss Feeders. Just because they're in a different league does not mean they play by different rules.
Also, the chances that there'd be a 100 sub-par, easily defeated Awakened beings are not that good. If she faces more than a few Rigardo/Agatha equivalents, she'll start feeling it despite being victorious. Hundreds or thousands of dead awakened beings at Riful's feet is completely unrealistic. At most we could expect dozens before chance dictates somebody strong enough to give her a real run-for-her-money comes along. After that, she becomes much more vulnerable to a battle of attrition.
Like i said only above average material like those who fought against alicia and beth or riful.
But i think even several agathas and rigardos would stand no chance against an abyssal one.
Perhaps 10, perhaps 20 who knows. And even then. Look how fast the AO is. It could kill one, retreat kill one retreat and so on. What i intended was to warn you to be careful with equations like 2 AO = 1 Priscilla.
And the thing about exhaustion. As far as i understood it they lose tons of yoki to regenerate. Only moving or spearing or slashing does not let them loose this much yoki. I think as long as riful who can only be wounded by weapons like helen's drill sword does not get wounded she probably does not have to use much of her yoki to wipe those AB's out who are to slow to reach her or have not the firepower to wound her and who handicap or wound them self trying to land a hit on riful.
The AFs are something else. They are specially designed and trained to fight isley. And they are fast, real fast and have this super regeneration. Perhaps through this soul link they are fighting even like a team or a squad. Even a single one of them probably outmatches an normal AB without problems.
Shiek927
2009-06-14, 20:12
I was talking about those ABs who send by isley - above average ABs. Not like rigardo or dauf.
Well, regardless, those kinds of AB's just don't exist, especially in large numbers.
I'm really not getting what the point is, those high numbers are just ridiculous. We don't know how much an average AB uses of their yoki for various things, including ones with such astronomical reseviors like the powerful ones. It depends on so many things, like the strength of the AB's, the situation etc etc....
And besides, again, why not? We're using simple deduction from the manga(that it would take 2 Abyssal Ones to beat Priscilla) to figure out these sorts of things. I really don't get what the big deal is.
Like i said only above average material like those who fought against alicia and beth or riful.
But i think even several agathas and rigardos would stand no chance against an abyssal one.
Perhaps 10, perhaps 20 who knows. What i intended was to warn you to be careful with equations like 2 AO = 1 Priscilla.
And the thing about exhaustion. As far as i understood it they lose tons of yoki to regenerate. Only moving or spearing or slashing does not let them loose this much yoki. I think as long as riful who can only be wounded by weapons like helen's drill sword does not get wounded she probably does not have to use much of her yoki to wipe those AB's out who are to slow to reach her or have not the firepower to wound her and who handicap or wound them self trying to land a hit on riful.
The AFs are something else. They are specially designed and trained to fight isley. And they are fast, real fast and have this super regeneration. Even a single one of them probably outmatches an normal AB without problems.
Well the problem with "warning" us is that by extension you'd be contradicting the words of Riful, who explicitly said the only way to defeat Priscilla was to team up with Luciela and take her out that way. While not an absolute measure of Priscilla's power, the fact that fighting multiple opponents is harder than one is irrefutable.
Instead of being able to concentrate your attention on one, you have to trade your primary attention from one to the other. Thus why packs work so well in taking down strong opponents. There is a strength in numbers that cannot always be measured just by the amount of yoki one side has versus the other. It is why Hyenas, despite their inferior strength/size, are able to force lions away from their kills if they have the numbers. One big advantage besides attention is that packs can multi-task; individuals cannot do so in a similar manner.
Thus two Rigardos would pose a much greater than 2X threat to Isley's existence way back than a single one would. Why? The advantage of fighting in a team. It's why Isley's dead and the Ghosts have survived. Riful, for all her advantages, has one massive disadvantage: she fights on her own, with only Dauf as backup.
The Ghosts by contrast, along with the Organization, go with a less-flashy but more lethal approach of team combat. It is why the Abyssal Ones are doomed, and why the Organization is about to face its doom. After all, if you take on team-based combatants who are better than most of your warriors, the results often aren't pretty.
irvinethearcher
2009-06-14, 20:41
Well the problem with "warning" us is that by extension you'd be contradicting the words of Riful, who explicitly said the only way to defeat Priscilla was to team up with Luciela and take her out that way. While not an absolute measure of Priscilla's power, the fact that fighting multiple opponents is harder than one is irrefutable.
The problem here is that riful said that there would be a little chance. Isley eliminated every possible thread.
R: If there was even a little chance to defeat those woman it would have been a power who surpasses those called AO.
There was no way than for me and luciella to team up and defeat her.
(BUT only with a small chance probably due to her mental instability. As far as i understand it riful thinks that the chances to defeat priscilla are better when they fight together
but this does not mean that the chance is high)
Anticipating this isley made his first move and before we knew that woman's true power he crushed that little chance.
Interesting is what riful said before. It is the same as i did only that she did not use numbers which
makes my post so shocking. She said:
No matter how many strong awakened beings you gather, no matter how many strong claymores the org creates, it is all to late.
This is even worse than my words but i think riful was a bit emotional because a awakened miata would be very strong too.
And we forget that priscilla always surpresses her yoki. Isley underestimated her, renee(eye of the org!) could not sense her so riful probably picked up only an outer layer as all the others too.
Instead of being able to concentrate your attention on one, you have to trade your primary attention from one to the other. Thus why packs work so well in taking down strong opponents. There is a strength in numbers that cannot always be measured just by the amount of yoki one side has versus the other. It is why Hyenas, despite their inferior strength/size, are able to force lions away from their kills if they have the numbers. One big advantage besides attention is that packs can multi-task; individuals cannot do so in a similar manner.
But packs have for example not the ability to focus their power on a single point like an individual has and they will always have the mentioned problems of communication overhead.
But don't you think that the many weak ones are at the disadvantage here. A hyena or a lion are in a way at the same level. hyenas are even superior in endurance to the lion.
We talk here about a being like teresa who perhaps has 4 times the yoki of priscilla. If we assume she is only twice as fast as an AO she could easily outrun even a huge amount of them and kill one by one. Perhaps to understand it better is to think about fighting with bare hands against 200 5 year old children alone as long as those children wouldn't use weapons or have some special training they wouldn't stand a chance even against one man. This is what i want to say with different league.
I don't know if i am really right about this because in the end it is only a manga and yagi makes the laws but i think i have a point here.
But the equation 2AO= PR was never mentioned in the manga. Isley simply didn't want to take unnecessary risks.
About the ghosts. they have this stealth mode. And even helen said clearly that those AO's are to strong for them to take them on. She should know it best, fighting isley even in a weakened state;) Why the ghosts had a winning chance from the beginning is because if those AOs fight against each other the last AO standing would be weakened and could perhaps be wiped out or something like that. Guerrilla tactics.
The problem here is that riful said that there would be a little chance. Isley eliminated every possible thread.
R: If there was even a little chance to defeat those woman it would have been a power who surpasses those called AO.
There was no way than for me and luciella to team up and defeat her.
(BUT only with a small chance probably due to her mental instability. As far as i understand it riful thinks that the chances to defeat priscilla are better when they fight together
but this does not mean that the chance is high)
Anticipating this isley made his first move and before we knew that woman's true power he crushed that little chance.
Interesting is what riful said before. It is the same as i did only that she did not use numbers which
makes my post so shocking. She said:
No matter how many strong awakened beings you gather, no matter how many strong claymores the org creates, it is all to late.
This is even worse than my words but i think riful was a bit emotional because a awakened miata would be very strong too.
And we forget that priscilla always surpresses her yoki. Isley underestimated her, renee(eye of the org!) could not sense her so riful probably picked up only an outer layer as all the others too.
But packs have for example not the ability to focus their power on a single point like an individual has and they will always have the mentioned problems of communication overhead.
But don't you think that the many weak ones are at the disadvantage here. A hyena or a lion are in a way at the same level. hyenas are even superior in endurance to the lion.
We talk here about a being like teresa who perhaps has 4 times the yoki of priscilla. If we assume she is only twice as fast as an AO she could easily outrun even a huge amount of them and kill one by one. Perhaps to understand it better is to think about fighting with bare hands against 200 5 year old children alone as long as those children wouldn't use weapons or have some special training they wouldn't stand a chance even against one man. This is what i want to say with different league.
I don't know if i am really right about this because in the end it is only a manga and yagi makes the laws but i think i have a point here.
But the equation 2AO= PR was never mentioned in the manga. Isley simply didn't want to take unnecessary risks.
About the ghosts. they have this stealth mode. And even helen said clearly that those AO's are to strong for them to take them on. She should know it best, fighting isley even in a weakened state;) Why the ghosts had a winning chance from the beginning is because if those AOs fight against each other the last AO standing would be weakened and could perhaps be wiped out or something like that. Guerrilla tactics.
With regards to Miata, I'm surprised you haven't responded to my earlier post regarding my theory that she is in fact been implanted with Abyss Feeder flesh. It would thus seem, as I said earlier, that the Organization seems to have caught on to the idea of using the flesh of deceased hybrids. In an cruel irony to the Organization, their latest experiment at creating the perfect warrior wound up not only leaving them, but joining their now most dangerous opponents, the "Ghosts"/"Rebels".
We had noted, on another thread, how what the organization wanted was a bunch of super-powerful Dietrichs. Actually, judging from Miata, what they want is a very simple-minded, tactically brilliant, off-scale strong female warrior able to use an amazing amount of yoki without having to awaken. If they could create an army of similar warriors, make them stable enough, the Ghosts might be doomed. They aren't the "perfect solution", but judging from Miata's raw abilities, I'd say she fits the bill in terms of getting close to what they want. Now as regards to the Ghosts not standing a chance against Abyssal Ones, have some faith in our heroine mate! :(;):p:D
We have someone with arguably the greatest potential of anyone on the island since Teresa, Claire, her successor. Also possibly joining Claire, or who Claire ought to be able to survive the encounter with, is the new being "Raciella". Besides Claire, the "Rebels" have Miria, a fighter who fights even better than No 1 in groups, and is possible No 1 potential herself. Then we have Miata, who as I said earlier, is the closest thing the Org HAD to their ideal warrior besides Alicia/Beth. The Ghosts stand a very good chance against Abyssal Ones (or the two left at least, though less against the now 2 Super-Abyssals) in combat.
You know who doesn't stand such a good chance in combat with such opponents? (Helen/Deneve/Cynthia/Tabitha/Galatea/Clarice/Yuma) Those are the weaker of their "members", though it remains to be seen if Miata/Clarice will fight their former comrades. At the very least Irvinethearcher, I think the Ghosts stand a good chance of making this a 50/50 fight. However, once the Dragonkin show up, all bets are off!
irvinethearcher
2009-06-14, 23:04
With regards to Miata, I'm surprised you haven't responded to my earlier post regarding my theory that she is in fact been implanted with Abyss Feeder flesh. It would thus seem, as I said earlier, that the Organization seems to have caught on to the idea of using the flesh of deceased hybrids. In an cruel irony to the Organization, their latest experiment at creating the perfect warrior wound up not only leaving them, but joining their now most dangerous opponents, the "Ghosts"/"Rebels".
We had noted, on another thread, how what the organization wanted was a bunch of super-powerful Dietrichs. Actually, judging from Miata, what they want is a very simple-minded, tactically brilliant, off-scale strong female warrior able to use an amazing amount of yoki without having to awaken. If they could create an army of similar warriors, make them stable enough, the Ghosts might be doomed. They aren't the "perfect solution", but judging from Miata's raw abilities, I'd say she fits the bill in terms of getting close to what they want. Now as regards to the Ghosts not standing a chance against Abyssal Ones, have some faith in our heroine mate! :(;):p:D
We have someone with arguably the greatest potential of anyone on the island since Teresa, Claire, her successor. Also possibly joining Claire, or who Claire ought to be able to survive the encounter with, is the new being "Raciella". Besides Claire, the "Rebels" have Miria, a fighter who fights even better than No 1 in groups, and is possible No 1 potential herself. Then we have Miata, who as I said earlier, is the closest thing the Org HAD to their ideal warrior besides Alicia/Beth. The Ghosts stand a very good chance against Abyssal Ones (or the two left at least, though less against the now 2 Super-Abyssals) in combat.
You know who doesn't stand such a good chance in combat with such opponents? (Helen/Deneve/Cynthia/Tabitha/Galatea/Clarice/Yuma) Those are the weaker of their "members", though it remains to be seen if Miata/Clarice will fight their former comrades. At the very least Irvinethearcher, I think the Ghosts stand a good chance of making this a 50/50 fight. However, once the Dragonkin show up, all bets are off!
You are right about one thing. Miata is special. If she has AB flesh inside of her i can not tell perhaps they mixed it up with a sprite of AB flesh but perhaps she is simply special. This is what i hope because if not the org could mass produce miatas.
For the AOs against the ghosts. I think even with galatea and miata they would loose in normal combat against someone like riful at full power. Clare said it too that she would rip her apart on sight. The strength of the ghosts was that they could lay low and attack in the right moment and then vanish again. Guerrilla tactics. You are right miria, galatea, miata, clare, helen, deneve and even first aid cynthia are impressive warriors but somehow after seeing helens fight against isley and how helen lost her eye against the AF and regarding clares coment about riful ripping her appart on sight i fear that in open war the rebels would lose even against only on AO.
I think they should place her hopes in rafs knowledge. Perhaps they can merge their minds too and learn all techniques from each other as far as it is physically possible for them to do them.
Good night i really have to sleep now :)
Shiek927
2009-06-14, 23:15
Perhaps, though you have to keep in mind that it wasn't a coherent battle. The whole battle wasn't even meant to happen, Helen and Deneve(stupid as they are) only wanted to see Isley. If they were fully gathered and organized under Miria's tactical leadership, things may have turned out different. Even if they didn't beat Isley regardlessly(and they would not I believe), the amount of damage would have been sufficiently different I think.
Also, Claire and Miria(and Miata of course. Galatea, not so much) are leagues beyond the other Ghosts, something you have to keep in mind as they weren't there.
Curious that you say Miata has AB flesh in her. Why? Because of her unstable mind?
I keep stressing this out(to MisterJB specifically, who thought that Raki would become an AE if he had AB flesh inside him); The Abyssal Feeders are far more then just warriors who've had AB flesh planted inside them: Their minds are tampered and ruined, their wills destroyed, their eyes destroyed, their mouths sewn: their conciousness has been shattered completely.
In other words, they have NOT gotten the traditional operation of simply having Awakened flesh planted inside them, which is what Miata clearly has. After all, she doens't have her eyes sewn or anything like that, she's not a Feeder. She's a normal Claymore.
While she does have similaraties to the Feeders, it would be extremely presumptious to say that a normal human would become an Abyssal Eater just because they have Awakened flesh inside them. I'm sure Raki would become something more if he had Awakened flesh inside him through the traditional operation, but not an AE. I believe Miata's instability may come from something else; all she is really, is a more extreme Priscilla. Perhaps seeing her parents death snapped her infantile mind and she shut herself off, becoming the Organization's "garbage disposal" until Clarice arrived and she felt a connection(because, admit it, the Organization most likely planned to kill her off for seeing the Ghosts which is too much information, especially for a brown-haired 47).
I'm not saying it's a bad theory - the enhanced senses and instability do provide links, but these things can be attributed to many other things as well as, like I said, the Eaters are far too different to think of them as "normal warriors", regardless of the flesh they have.
If Miata really was a first attempt to use Awakened flesh; if the Organization had brains, they would have kept using more to create more normal warriors to see if the instability was something only Miata had, or all Awakened Claymores had before moving on to the more creative Eaters.
Perhaps, though you have to keep in mind that it wasn't a coherent battle. The whole battle wasn't even meant to happen, Helen and Deneve(stupid as they are) only wanted to see Isley. If they were fully gathered and organized under Miria's tactical leadership, things may have turned out different. Even if they didn't beat Isley regardlessly(and they would not I believe), the amount of damage would have been sufficiently different I think.
Also, Claire and Miria(and Miata of course. Galatea, not so much) are leagues beyond the other Ghosts, something you have to keep in mind as they weren't there.
Curious that you say Miata has AB flesh in her. Why? Because of her unstable mind?
I keep stressing this out(to MisterJB specifically, who thought that Raki would become an AE if he had AB flesh inside him); The Abyssal Feeders are far more then just warriors who've had AB flesh planted inside them: Their minds are tampered and ruined, their wills destroyed, their eyes destroyed, their mouths sewn: their conciousness has been shattered completely.
In other words, they have NOT gotten the traditional operation of simply having Awakened flesh planted inside them, which is what Miata clearly has. After all, she doens't have her eyes sewn or anything like that, she's not a Feeder. She's a normal Claymore.
While she does have similaraties to the Feeders, it would be extremely presumptious to say that a normal human would become an Abyssal Eater just because they have Awakened flesh inside them. I'm sure Raki would become something more if he had Awakened flesh inside him through the traditional operation, but not an AE. I believe Miata's instability may come from something else; all she is really, is a more extreme Priscilla. Perhaps seeing her parents death snapped her infantile mind and she shut herself off, becoming the Organization's "garbage disposal" until Clarice arrived and she felt a connection(because, admit it, the Organization most likely planned to kill her off for seeing the Ghosts which is too much information, especially for a brown-haired 47).
I'm not saying it's a bad theory - the enhanced senses and instability do provide links, but these things can be attributed to many other things as well as, like I said, the Eaters are far too different to think of them as "normal warriors", regardless of the flesh they have.
If Miata really was a first attempt to use Awakened flesh; if the Organization had brains, they would have kept using more to create more normal warriors to see if the instability was something only Miata had, or all Awakened Claymores had before moving on to the more creative Eaters.
I'm advancing the theory because of the enhanced senses and instability, yes. But also the off-scale potential of one so young. I would like you to note that I did not say she was implanted with Awakened Being flesh. I said she was implanted with Abyss Feeder/Eater flesh.
Abyss Feeders were originally human women implanted with Awakened Being flesh, making them 1/2th awakened beings. This new hybrid they modified to make even more monstrous and controllable, that much is true. However, have we ever considered what the Organization would do with the corpse of an Abyss Feeder?
If you're in a war, you DO NOT waste your chances at winning. If the Abyss Feeders were something of a success, why not try to see what would happen if you used the hybrid awakeneds' flesh? The fact that Miata can find Galatea so easily despite so many obstacles (namely actual intelligence) leads me to believe she cannot be an ordinary Claymore. Why? Simply because there is not a single other claymore that has demonstrated such an ability. Not even "Tracker" Dietrich!
If Miata is the future of Organization research, they may be coming closer than is comfortable to attaining the warriors they need for use against Rubel's employers. Her infantile mind and almost-monstrous nature also count heavily towards her being an experiment unique from other claymores.
I refer you to chapter 73, page 05
Mr. Rado: "That is where Miata's unique power will be of use..." (referring to finding Galatea)
Clarice: "Unique...power?"
Mr. Rado: Talks about how it is not actually unique, talking about senses all humans have: touch, taste, sight, smell, sound..."Miata excels in these five senses, and thus can fight without relying on the "filter" of thought, instead acting merely on instinct. And the sense that results from these five highly tuned senses...a sixth sense so to speak, is the special power Miata has obtained."
He goes on how it allows her to find things without anything but instinct. I, for the life of going over the manga, cannot find anyone else fighting in such a way. Miata stands out for a myriad of reasons, not least of which is the way the Organization describes her. Why call her unique if in fact she is normal?
Shiek927
2009-06-15, 00:00
.....Wait a minute, wait a minute.
I think you're putting a bit too much emphasis on specific flesh. Their is no proof that the flesh of an Abyssal Eater(aka, an Awakened) is any different from the Awakened they originally came from. It's really the MIND that's the key difference, not the flesh. Unstable as Miata is, she's not anywhere near as bad the AE's. On top of that, you would think she would have similar abilities like the AE's - sure she's got the enhanced senses(despite not them being "carved" like them), but what about the intense regeneration or adaptibility? These abilities are key, much more then simply enhanced senses, it's what makes them so powerful. it almost seems like they're going backwards and not forward but having these abilities
Their is also something else I'd like to point out: The Organization I don't think sees Miata as a beautiful symbol of things to come, Alicia has that position. As powerful as Miata is and unstable as she is, control is what Organization cares the most, not power. They want a warrior that will obediently obey them at all costs; The AE's and Alicia fill that position, not Miata who will obey Mama over everyone else and was completely uncontrollable before her.
If Miata is supposed to represent the next-generation soldier, I see her as one giant failure rather then a trophy.
.....Wait a minute, wait a minute.
I think you're putting a bit too much emphasis on specific flesh. Their is no proof that the flesh of an Abyssal Eater(aka, an Awakened) is any different from the Awakened they originally came from. It's really the MIND that's the key difference, not the flesh. Unstable as Miata is, she's not anywhere near as bad the AE's. On top of that, you would think she would have similar abilities like the AE's - sure she's got the enhanced senses(despite not them being "carved" like them), but what about the intense regeneration or adaptibility? These abilities are key, much more then simply enhanced senses, it's what makes them so powerful. it almost seems like they're going backwards and not forward but having these abilities
Their is also something else I'd like to point out: The Organization I don't think sees Miata as a beautiful symbol of things to come, Alicia has that position. As powerful as Miata is and unstable as she is, control is what Organization cares the most, not power. They want a warrior that will obediently obey them at all costs; The AE's and Alicia fill that position, not Miata who will obey Mama over everyone else and was completely uncontrollable before her.
If Miata is supposed to represent the next-generation soldier, I see her as one giant failure rather then a trophy.
Miata may seem a failure, that I can agree on.
However your statement that the flesh donor (awakened vs. Abyss Feeder) not mattering is countered by the regeneration abilities Miata has demonstrated so far. Dietrich also mentions how the effects of Awakened flesh are quite strong, and we've already seen that dilution of donor material (yoma) hindered Claire in the early going. Miata is almost Abyss Feeder like in her nature, though she hasn't had a lobotomy. But the proof of the link I think comes in chapter 77.
She gets her arms pulled apart by a "tug of war" contest with Agatha on page 9 of chapter 77 (rather impressively I might add). Then by page 15 they've already reconnected! Miata's supposed to be an "offensive" type to our knowledge (she's listed as such online), so how did she reconnect her arms in that manner if no claymore besides Deneve, a partially awakened "Defensive" Claymore, has shown it to be possible?
What's more, look at her eyes! They suggest she wasn't even close to her limits. So I ask you Shiek, how does an offensive warrior, supposedly non-awakened (It just seems ridiculous to expect that Miata, a one-sided personality, held back and became partially awakened), do that? It seems closer to the abilities of the Abyss Feeders than it does a claymore!
The proof is in the regeneration ability Shiek.
Shiek927
2009-06-15, 00:49
Miata may seem a failure, that I can agree on.
However your statement that the flesh donor (awakened vs. Abyss Feeder) not mattering is countered by the regeneration abilities Miata has demonstrated so far.
She gets her arms pulled apart by a "tug of war" contest with Agatha on page 9 of chapter 77 (rather impressively I might add). Then by page 15 they've already reconnected! Miata's supposed to be an "offensive" type to our knowledge (she's listed as such online), so how did she reconnect her arms in that manner if no claymore besides Deneve, a partially awakened "Defensive" Claymore, has shown it to be possible?
What's more, look at her eyes! They suggest she wasn't even close to her limits. So I ask you Shiek, how does an offensive warrior, supposedly non-awakened (It just seems ridiculous to expect that Miata, a one-sided personality, held back and became partially awakened), do that? It seems closer to the abilities of the Abyss Feeders than it does a claymore!
The proof is in the regeneration ability Shiek.
Hmmmm.........interesting.........
Perhaps you are onto something :)
Hmmmm.........interesting.........
Perhaps you are onto something :)
Oh, so the Dark Lord of Animesuki hasn't lost their edge huh? You see Shiek, doing research pays off on this site. I might remind you Yagi has been going with a dilution hybridization theme for quite some time.
First Claire getting Teresa's flesh and blood. Then adding some of Irene's flesh and blood (making Claire ironically, biologically related to both fighters, pretty cool huh?:heh:) helped her on her way. She partially awakened prior to meeting Irene, and pretty soon her abilities began growing at an astronomical rate.
The chance that the Organization was curious about doing something similar with Abyss Feeder flesh seems quite high, given past events. Perhaps they know the limits of Abyss Feeders, and wish to create an army of single-minded fighters like Miata. If they can get more people like her to be stable and obedient, they'd be all set.
Now on to more proof. Chapter 73 saw Miata put up against enemy after enemy. The question is why? Why would the yoma seek out such a strong opponent? I think the answer is that they wanted to see how she'd do. She is their latest experiment after all, and they do need results. They're in a war after all, and you don't get funding for nothing.
Wow, I think it's too bad that this thread fell out of favor, considering it's exactly what we should be discussing. Man, looking over my last post, it seems I was off "slightly". Never fear though, the Dark Lord of Animesuki's claymore community has a track record to keep of making grand claims that (mostly) don't pan out.
So let's sum up where the hell the war is right now, shall we?
Island Superpower-The Organization
Now under tremendous threat since we last saw them. Claire's fast-track awakening of "Raciella's" has just split the race to be top power on the island wide open. That said, the Organization has a lot going for it. They have not one but two Abyssal-level claymores (Alicia/Beth) who are somewhere near Riful's level in fighting abilities. Their Abyss Feeders have demonstrated that they can kill Abyssal Ones, given enough time and replacements. They possess at least two packs of them now, giving them somewhere around (10-30) Abyss Feeders to attack Riful and whoever else threatens their reign. But of course, there is THAT PROBLEM: they only go after the target when the Org can acquire part of their flesh. This makes them a "second-strike" weapon, or at best a support weapon.
The Org's backup, as always, is the 47 claymores it possesses and the numerous trainees it has. The Org at the moment holds the most firepower, but they also have the most to lose. My fearless prediction?
The Org is going to fight all-out, with an attack on Rabona to drag the Ghosts' out to fight the Abyss Feeders. How the hell does that happen? Getting the Abyss Feeders conditioned to seek out human meat. In the meantime, I predict they will lose at least one of their Abyssal-level claymores (most likely Alicia).
Number Two Power-The Ghosts
While they may lack an Alicia/Beth, the Ghosts have not one, two, but three No 1 potential fighters: Claire, Miria and Miata. The supporting cast, although small, is excellent at fighting (all single digit level fighters besides Clarice). The real key is that the Ghosts have an unprecedented level of knowledge about the Org, they have fighters that excel, they are impossible to sense (excepting when they release yoki). If the new being Claire has "awakened" is pulled back, then they're well on their way to challenging for top power status. If not, then all bets are off!
Western Abyssal (Riful+Dauf) "The Third Power"
Talk about not catching a break. Even if Alicia is considering adding the new "Raciella" to her target list, the first on that list is none other than everyone's favorite awakened being. Riful & Dauf, should they go back to the dilapidated castle, face a possible pincer movement from Claire/Raciella and Alicia/Beth/Abyss Feeders. My only conclusion is that no matter what happens, Riful/Dauf are doomed. But that doesn't mean it can't be done in a splashy manner, eh?
The Wild Cards
Super-Abyssal One Priscilla
New Super-Abyssal One "Raciella"
The Organization's enemies/Dragonkin
The Big Picture
Where do I see this going? I see all sorts of scenarios playing out, depending greatly on what the new Super-Abyssal being born is like. If it's like Luciela, it'll most likely go on a wide conquering rampage. If it's partially-awakened, the new being could be child-like, veteran-like, or like a sister to Claire and the Ghosts. The Org's response should be nothing less than extreme to any scenario.
Where I ultimately see this going is Claire revealing her partially-awakened status to the Organization, much to Rubel's chagrin. After the initial battle royale, I expect the Organization may have a final showdown battle OR they'll start bringing in warriors in from the mainland, along with armies. Why do this? They need Claire, and warriors like her, very badly! Don't expect the Dragonkin & their allies to take this lying down. If Rubel informs them, you should expect that the mainland war will come directly onto the island itself.
Of course, that'd leave the Ghosts in the middle! But hey, crazier things have happened...the Abyss Feeders anyone or the giant revelations of chapters 79-82?
Here's a challenge to Shiek, Ryuken, MisterJB, Cammila, Clarakiss and everyone at the community: Tell me where you see the Island War going and if you disagree with me, speak up (even if you don't disagree with your master Shiek927)!
Well, perhaps I'm a bit late for this discussion...
a) The Organization
The Organization with its narrow-minded views is giving way too much credit to Alicia's abilities. Unless we've yet to see her express her true potential.
The AFs are the other card in its possession. And having dispatched them together with Alicia and Beth was a good move. What we're uncertain of, though, is how many of them it can dispose at the moment and the actual number of them assigned to Alicia's mission.
Ath this point, I'm asking myself whether the possibility of the Org to have created or tried to successfully produce other experiments of different nature during the past 7 years can be a reality.
The Org isn't saying anything in Rubel's presence but it might be aware of the Ghosts' existence and have already planned a mission against them -- after Riful's.
b) The Ghosts
The Ghosts are strong as a group. A reunion in the proximity to Riful's lair is possible. Their main disadvantages consist in their separation and in the fact that 3 of them are no longer yoki-cloacked. Is any of the 7 going to be unlucky and find the twin sisters on their journey to Riful's? How do you justify Alicia and Beth localizing that MiB? As a consequence, can the 2 sisters be able to identify the Ghosts that are in stealth mode, too, and consider them a threat ( yeah, another one to add to their list :heh: )?
I can't but think one of them is gonna be sacrificed by Yagi's plot. It was about time... Hope she won't be neither one of the partially awakened nor Yuma.
c) Galatea, Clarice and Miata
Having the impression Miria and Tabitha left before Raffaella' blast, I have no reason to believe they've left Rabona yet. But when Galatea will perceive the blast, there's no doubt they'd be leaving and following Miria.
d) Raciella
The creature ( who deserves a better name ) is awakening. And the Lord of Rabona only knows if she's gonna be a new super power threat to the island or a docile being who's gonna recognize Clare as a friend, an ally or a family member. Me too, I'm leaning towards the latter.
And I have the feeling she's not going to die anytime soon. Otherwise Raffaella would have asked Clare to kill her in order to succeed in what she hadn't been able to 7 years ago.
e) Riful and Dauf
With Isley gone and Luciela on the verge of transforming into a new entity, logic would dictate to expect an imminent death for Riful, too. But it would be too predictable and too convenient to say the abyssal of the West is gonna die. And maybe Dauf's armour is too strong even for the AFs and Alicia's blades. So who knows...
Besides, these 2 crack me up and entertain me too much with their distorted vision of the world that it would be hard for me to see them going.
f) Clare
The emotions and memories she's inherited from Raffaella are undeniably a strong power-up. But the way I see it, they can be considered as such and would come into play only in the long run. As of right now, I find myself believing all this situation has weakened her a lot with the confusion these other images fluctuating in her mind/mental body and the wounds Raffa might have inflicted to her physical body.
I'd want to add that I believe claymores have 2 bodies: a mental body and a physical one. So Teresa's body is the one that perished but the mental one is alive and blocked inside Clare. This would help us explain the vision/dream of Teresa swinging her sword that Clare had in volume 5.
Now that she's weak, wounded and in danger ( Raciella in front of her, Riful, Dauf, AFs, Alicia and Beth coming where she is... party at Riful's ), this might be the right time for Clare to realize how she needs others and their help instead of always wanting to act alone.
Then there's the whole other dear to me scenario in which Raffaella might have had an agenda of her own and wanted a part of her consciousness to invade Clare's mind to take control of her at her will... Please, don't put too much thought into this, though. :heh:
g) Raki and Priscilla
I hope that kid/girl against whom I no longer hold grudges will head to Riful's castle. With Raki, of course. So if no one of the Ghosts can arrive there in time to help Clare, Raki's gonna be repeating himself. On a second though, this would be predictable so less probable... :eyespin:
h) Rabona, DoDs
I'd like to see the holy city abandoning its neutral position and join forces against the Org... with the Ghosts, Riful with or sans Dauf. Part of the motive is it would be nice to say the least to see Cid, Gark and the soldiers again.
Plus I'm caressing the idea of seeing our first DoD... And another spy inside the Org unsuspected by any of its members to reveal the partially awakened secret to one of the factions of the continent.
So much can happen in a matter of few chapters...
Edit: why my sig isn't showing?
MisterJB
2009-06-15, 10:21
e) Riful and Dauf
With Isley gone and Luciela on the verge of transforming into a new entity, logic would dictate to expect an imminent death for Riful, too. But it would be too predictable and too convenient to say the abyssal of the West is gonna die. And maybe Dauf's armour is too strong even for the AFs and Alicia's blades. So who knows...
Edit: why my sig isn't showing?
If AF's teeth can chew Isley, then they will cut trough Dauf's skin like butter.
I hope they both die. I have a HUGE grudge against those two (Jean) and they are useless and unfunny and lame and stupids and they are both childish and weak and they SUCK.
Sorry to any fan of the pair, I just wanted to get it out of my system.
I can see it.
If AF's teeth can chew Isley, then they will cut trough Dauf's skin like butter.
I hope they both die. I have a HUGE grudge against those two (Jean) and they are useless and unfunny and lame and stupids and they are both childish and weak and they SUCK.
Sorry to any fan of the pair, I just wanted to get it out of my system.
I can see it.
But the AFs have acquired the strenght needed to chew Isley with time. So maybe for the time being Dauf's safe. I'm saying this 'cause I can't picture Riful without Dauf.
I haven't forgiven them for the tortures they've inflicted to Jean and all the others, too. :upset: I just can accept them the way they are. Nothing more nothing less.
No offense taken.;)
Shiek927
2009-06-15, 14:00
But the AFs have acquired the strenght needed to chew Isley with time. So maybe for the time being Dauf's safe. I'm saying this 'cause I can't picture Riful without Dauf.
I haven't forgiven them for the tortures they've inflicted to Jean and all the others, too. :upset: I just can accept them the way they are. Nothing more nothing less.
No offense taken.;)
AE's don't lose any abilities; I highly doubt Dauf's armor is denser or stronger then Isley's abyssal flesh. If they were adapted to eat through Isley, they should be able to eat through Dauf with extreme ease.
The question is, will they be able too? They've adapted to the point that Isley's speed can't keep up with them. Nevertheless, Dauf and Riful have the best chance against them as they have emphasis on raw power and close-combat over Isley's long-ranged precision.
Nevertheless, as much as I like her, I fully believe Riful will die soon as well as Dauf who I couldn't care less for.
I hope they both die. I have a HUGE grudge against those two (Jean) and they are useless and unfunny and lame and stupids and they are both childish and weak and they SUCK.
.....Wow :eyespin::heh:
That is what you call a rant :heh:
irvinethearcher
2009-06-15, 15:25
Besides, these 2 crack me up and entertain me too much with their distorted vision of the world that it would be hard for me to see them going.
Nice signature:)
I like them too. Somehow i think and hope that those two don't die that easily:heh:
And riful is really far from being stupid. She is probably more cunning isley ever was. She saw right through priscilla and knew at least that
she was not beatable.
I believe Miata's instability may come from something else; all she is really, is a more extreme Priscilla.
That's what i first thought too and probably everyone else. It seemed only a matter of chapters until clarice would be killed and miata would be awaken.
But things aren't what they seem to be. Miata showed during the fight against agatha that she has a good heart, a strong will and that she is a selfless person. She remembered me more of clare than of the big talking and cowardly acting priscilla. Interesting would be what would happen if clarice would die. Now after getting a deeper impression of what miata really is i think there is even a real chance she would stay human.
AE's don't lose any abilities; I highly doubt Dauf's armor is denser or stronger then Isley's abyssal flesh. If they were adapted to eat through Isley, they should be able to eat through Dauf with extreme ease.
Dunno, Dauf's pretty solid and can resist to Riful's tentacles. :uhoh:
The question is, will they be able too? They've adapted to the point that Isley's speed can't keep up with them. Nevertheless, Dauf and Riful have the best chance against them as they have emphasis on raw power and close-combat over Isley's long-ranged precision.
Ya, they appear lucky enough to survive the AFs.
Nice signature:)
I like them too. Somehow i think and hope that those two don't die that easily:heh:
And riful is really far from being stupid. She is probably more cunning isley ever was. She saw right through priscilla and knew at least that
she was not beatable.
Thanks. Ganishka's blast in Berserk's last chapter reminded me of Raffaella's. :D
Nice to know someone who likes that duo, too.
MisterJB
2009-06-15, 15:56
Nice signature:)
I like them too. Somehow i think and hope that those two don't die that easily:heh:
And riful is really far from being stupid. She is probably more cunning isley ever was. She saw right through priscilla and knew at least that
she was not beatable.
Yeah, because Riful wasn't totally outwitted.
Who ruled the world? Who left the South with her tail between her legs?
Riful is hardly cunning. Her master plan is to get strong Awakened Beings to help her.
OMG, Riful. Did you tought of that plan all by yourself or did Dauf help you?
If anyone is interested in my opinion on Isley's plan, it's on the Priscilla and Isley thread.
Shiek927
2009-06-15, 16:47
Yeah, because Riful wasn't totally outwitted.
Who ruled the world? Who left the South with her tail between her legs?
Riful is hardly cunning. Her master plan is to get strong Awakened Beings to help her.
OMG, Riful. Did you tought of that plan all by yourself or did Dauf help you?
If anyone is interested in my opinion on Isley's plan, it's on the Priscilla and Isley thread.
Jesus Christ MisterJB :uhoh::heh:
http://i43.tinypic.com/28cgfsy.jpg
How can you possibly hate an adorable little girl like that? :heh:
Besides, you can't blame her if she wasn't handed everything on a silver platter. Isley had everything going for him since day 1: They were both No.1's, but he had his own army, his second-in-command, an ultimate weapon, and even his own human apprentice who became family.
The only thing Riful ever got, besides a series of never-ending failures was....well....Dauf :heh:
If she's going to make any big plans, she needs support, something she never ever got. Isley had all the minions he could ever ask for.
Perhaps it all didn't matter anyway. After all, Isley still died and he helped create Raciella, and technically with Isley dead, Riful is automatically the lord of the West, South AND North.
Really something huh? :heh:
MisterJB
2009-06-15, 17:12
Jesus Christ MisterJB :uhoh::heh:
How can you possibly hate a little girl like that? :heh:
Besides, you can't blame her if she wasn't handed everything on a silver platter. Isley had everything going for him since day 1: They were both No.1's, but he had his own army, his second-in-command, an ultimate weapon, and even his own human apprentice who became family.
The only thing Riful ever got, besides a series of never-ending failures was....well....Dauf :heh:
If she's going to make any big plans, she needs support, something she never ever got. Isley had all the minions he could ever ask for.
Perhaps it all didn't matter anyway. After all, Isley still died and he helped create Raciella, and technically with Isley dead, Riful is automatically the lord of the West, South AND North.
Really something huh? :heh:
Isley had all of that but he deserved them. He had to figth Rigardo for the position, he had to show to the other ABs that he was stronger and smarter. He even fought Priscilla to win her to his side.
He could have avoided figthing Luciela. Seriously, he just had to walk in front of her accompanied by Priscilla and Raki. Since the boy looks so "delicious", Luciela would have probrably tried to eat him. Priscilla would defend Raki and that was it, Luciela was dead and Isley didn't had to do a thing.
Instead of that, he fought her while sweet, little Riful was waiting for the outcome of the battle to kill the winner.
Yes shiek, there were also many princesses in the history of Europe who had everything handed to them without having to lift a finger. That's hardly something honorable or to be proud of.
Everything was handed to Riful in a silved platter, the only thing she did since her first appearance in the series was torturing weaker Claymores and weaker Awakened Beings.
And Riful controls only the West and she is going to lose even that in some chapters. The Org controls the North, the South and the East with Alicia, the AFs and the Claymores.
Riful only has herself and Dauf.
If she wants to have minions, she should do something to deserve them. Besides, no one wants to serve a psycho and sadistic 9 years old child that breaks her own servants.
And the worst of all is that she tortured Jean.
Shiek927
2009-06-15, 17:20
Isley had all of that but he deserved them. He had to figth Rigardo for the position, he had to show to the other ABs that he was stronger and smarter. He even fought Priscilla to win her to his side.
He could have avoided figthing Luciela. Seriously, he just had to walk in front of her accompanied by Priscilla and Raki. Since the boy looks so "delicious", Luciela would have probrably tried to eat him. Priscilla would defend Raki and that was it, Luciela was dead and Isley didn't had to do a thing.
Instead of that, he fought her while sweet, little Riful was waiting for the outcome of the battle to kill the winner.
Yes shiek, there were also many princesses in the history of Europe who had everything handed to them without having to lift a finger. That's hardly something honorable or to be proud of.
Everything was handed to Riful in a silved platter, the only thing she did since her first appearance in the series was torturing weaker Claymores and weaker Awakened Beings.
And Riful controls only the West and she is going to lose even that in some chapters. The Org controls the North, the South and the East with Alicia, the AFs and the Claymores.
Riful only has herself and Dauf.
Hold the phone, we don't know if it was the fighting that caused all of them to obey Isley. We don't know much about why he had an army: I always assumed it was, because he was No.1 that they all continued to support him even after awakening. Rigardo was the only one with enough strength to oppose him.
The North and South right now are currently owned by no-one. With Isley's death, I assumed it was Riful's now, but it really belongs to no one.
As for Luciella, Isley wouldn't do that, he didn't even know if Raki was of any use at the time. His original plan was what happened: Priscilla showing up and showing Riful that he was invincible now.
NOTHING was handed to Riful, nothing. She never had anything. She didn't have the benefit of her ENTIRE generation awakening with her. She was lucky to even get her hands of Dauf to begin with, since he's the only one who left the other males.
MisterJB
2009-06-15, 17:34
Hold the phone, we don't know if it was the fighting that caused all of them to obey Isley. We don't know much about why he had an army: I always assumed it was, because he was No.1 that they all continued to support him even after awakening. Rigardo was the only one with enough strength to oppose him.
The North and South right now are currently owned by no-one. With Isley's death, I assumed it was Riful's now, but it really belongs to no one.
As for Luciella, Isley wouldn't do that, he didn't even know if Raki was of any use at the time. His original plan was what happened: Priscilla showing up and showing Riful that he was invincible now.
NOTHING was handed to Riful, nothing. She never had anything. She didn't have the benefit of her ENTIRE generation awakening with her. She was lucky to even get her hands of Dauf to begin with, since he's the only one who left the other males.
Well, we know that the entire generation Awakened. That AB that Dauf killed said "our Awakening". That should mean that almost all of them Awakened with little intervals between them.
He also said that Rigardo and Isley fought for the position of King. It's possible that he was already the King before that but Isley had, at least once, to defend his title.
The South belongs to the Org after they killed their original ruler. The North has just been abandoned by everyone except for a few ABs.
Priscilla became instantanely attached to Raki. Isley is intelligent, don't you think that in the days that took them to reach the South, he wouldn't have figured out a way to use Raki against Luciela?
EVERYTHING was handed to Riful. She was handed Yoma flesh and she Awakened.
She became an AO by her own right, splitting the Continent with other two AOs who were much more awesome than her.
In the end, Isley killed Luciela and the Org killed Isley.
Riful didn't had to do a thing to see more than half of her competition defeated.
Shiek927
2009-06-15, 17:47
Well, we know that the entire generation Awakened. That AB that Dauf killed said "our Awakening". That should mean that almost all of them Awakened with little intervals between them.
He also said that Rigardo and Isley fought for the position of King. It's possible that he was already the King before that but Isley had, at least once, to defend his title.
The South belongs to the Org after they killed their original ruler. The North has just been abandoned by everyone except for a few ABs.
Priscilla became instantanely attached to Raki. Isley is intelligent, don't you think that in the days that took them to reach the South, he wouldn't have figured out a way to use Raki against Luciela?
EVERYTHING was handed to Riful. She was handed Yoma flesh and she Awakened.
She became an AO by her own right, splitting the Continent with other two AOs who were much more awesome than her.
In the end, Isley killed Luciela and the Org killed Isley.
Riful didn't had to do a thing to see more than half of her competition defeated.
XDXD, You're just like Revan, trying to use my own supporting points against me XD
JB, Riful not doing anything still would have ended up being good for her yes, but you can't say she didn't TRY. Isley had so many advantages from the get-go; even though Riful had so many failures, it wasn't that things were "handed to her" when Isley died, it was luck. After all, it may not be even be that once the AE's start going for her.
Looking at the big picture, She didn't HAVE to do anything to see her compeition defeated yes, but it's not like she sat on her butt for the whole war or Riful can use precognition.
Priscilla became instantanely attached to Raki. Isley is intelligent, don't you think that in the days that took them to reach the South, he wouldn't have figured out a way to use Raki against Luciela?
The whole arguement is moot because that's not what ended up happening.
Besides, I think he was more concerned with keeping him safe so he could get stronger. I don't think he would have tried putting him in danger. Priscilla showing up just to protect him seemed like a big gamble on it's own.
Which brings up a good question: When Priscilla went to Isley, what did Raki do? surely he realized she wasn't in the house. Perhaps when both of them showed up naked was when he figured things out.
Admit it JB, this whole arguement is because I like Riful and you don't :heh:
MisterJB
2009-06-15, 17:58
XDXD, You're just like Revan, trying to use my own supporting points against me XD
JB, Riful not doing anything still would have ended up being good for her yes, but you can't say she didn't TRY. Isley had so many advantages from the get-go; even though Riful had so many failures, it wasn't that things were "handed to her" when Isley died, it was luck. After all, it may not be even be that once the AE's start going for her.
Looking at the big picture, She didn't HAVE to do anything to see her compeition defeated yes, but it's not like she sat on her butt for the whole war or Riful can use precognition.
Which brings up a good question: When Priscilla went to Isley, what did Raki do? surely he realized she wasn't in the house. Perhaps when both of them showed up naked was when he figured things out.
Admit it JB, this whole arguement is because I like Riful and you don't :heh:
I don't even know how to do that.:heh:
Well, you just proved a very good point. Riful is FAIL.
That ain't tru actually, she did sat on her butt for the whole war
http://i40.tinypic.com/2882g5f.jpg
Actually, I think Raki tought that something else was going on. After all, he saw Priscilla returning with a naked Isley.
Call me crazy, but I don't think that the first tought on his mind was that both of them were Awakened Beings.
Prscilla wasn't naked.
Not really. I used to dislike her, now I planly hate her and with every passing chapter, I pray for Riful to die a painful death.
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