Clannad ~After Story~ - Episode 04 Discussion / Poll [Archive]

Klashikari

2008-10-23, 11:39

Welcome to the discussion thread for Clannad ~After Story~ , Episode 04.

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Utau

2008-10-23, 12:31

- missed the first 5minuutes
- darn those soccer club members, they dare hurt Mei :frustrated:
- that itching omen that was lingering in my head really happened. The scene were Tomoya almost attack some of the members was breath taking, then Sunohara came rushing in out of nowhere. Super hearing aide? :heh:

best part of this episode was when Sunohara addressed Akio as "oto-san" that was friggin EPIC! :heh:

at least now he knows whos girl is Sanae XD

preview: Misae-san :love: :bow: :love:

Misae looked like Kyou :eek:

Usami Haru

2008-10-23, 12:33

First I ;_;'ed, Then I Raged like the fist of the north star, then I lol'd....Then I ;_;'ed again.

The best CLANNAD episode, IMO. 11/10.

Preview: Misae arc, yay!

rave_master16

2008-10-23, 12:47

Now this shows the GARness of the boys compared to the first episode...

SidVicious

2008-10-23, 13:03

There's a low quality RAW out for those interested.

Klashikari

2008-10-23, 13:05

Eventful, and nice development, fufu

Episode 4, summary+ comments and caps (http://animehistory.wordpress.com/2008/10/23/clannad-after-story-episode-4/)

Honestly, they did a tremendous job in delivering the mood and the feelings of the characters (giant props to sakaguchi and nakamura for their show with both youhei and tomoya screaming etc).
Definitely a nice closure to the sunohare siblings route. faithful, effective and paced.

and... rofl Misae's SUPLEX... Kaname's mode? :heh:

edit: article complete

Proto

2008-10-23, 17:31

Wow, I fell in love with the Sunohara sibblings route all over again. Hadn't felt so moved up in a CLANNAD episode since Fuuko's route ending and Nagisa's play. Major props to the VA's and the animators for conveying so masterfuly the mood of the climax. This deserves my first 10/10 of the season :)

Also, they did a good work of throwing hints for the Yukine arc. I wonder if after this little dialog

Mei: My brother and you...?
Yukine: We get well along. Pretty well.
*Mei's surprised face*

Are throwing some hints at a possible game liberty :p

irrelevance

2008-10-23, 17:45

This episode is awesome, best one so far after the baseball one. Sunohara and Okazaki friendship is one of the things that I enjoy the most in CLANNAD.
And it's good that they put Nagisa into Sunoharas' arc as well. That makes her more involved in the story as well as developing her characters.

Kaisos Erranon

2008-10-23, 17:59

Gah, can't wait to see this. I loved this route in the game so much...

Shinigami_Mello

2008-10-23, 20:56

Are throwing some hints at a possible game liberty :p

With all this Sunohara brotherness, they might as well switch out Tomoya to Sunohara in that arc ;D
Wouldnt that be interesting.

Anyway, I cant wait till this episode <3 It's the best part of the Siblings route.

MeoTwister5

2008-10-23, 21:19

Haven't seen it yet, but can I ask if it faithfully follows the Sunohara Siblings Route?

Proto

2008-10-23, 21:23

It skims over some minor aspects, and KyoAni adds some additional flavor of its own, but the overall essence is kept as a whole.

mandarb916

2008-10-23, 21:56

art quality went up :)

Leo_Otaku

2008-10-23, 22:58

Awesome episode ^-^ Iliked the added bit with Nagisa. Was really awesome to see it animated. YAY misae!!! I waited a whole year foir this!!!

Kaioshin Sama

2008-10-23, 23:21

Well I thought this was the best they could have done for getting me to actually care about Sunohara's storyline so I guess that says something. Not exactly the best arc in the series or even a strong one at all, but a decent end to an arc that I thought was going to be brutal beyond words.

Mecha_Trueno

2008-10-24, 03:14

dammit, i woke up too late and missed it to watch on live streaming again. finally got the raw:D
cant believe myself when one of the soccer members said "you're gonna fight against this much of us?"... at that time i thought "tomoya you dumbass, you had all that time and even argued about who should go and who shouldn't go, there was a better option...... bring tomoyo... and kyou if need be":heh:
... i guess my mind works different from everyone, i can actually crack a joke during a serious scene whilst simultaniously thinking "kisama... WTF you doing to mei-chan?! hanase!!!"
EDIT: no wait, i guess the two thoughts are somewhat interlinked.

anyway, that was a wicked episode! absolutely loved it, despite the lack of comedy.
thought the "kyou-chan ijimekko >.<" was cute though:D. in that scene, i was hoping they were gonna interogate tomoya on his "onii-chan" complex.
feels awsome that they finished the ep off with the inevitable moment we've all been waiting for... "finding out the truth about sanae-san":D and kyoani did it with style, coupling it with a display of tomoya and sunohara's friendship.
btw, when nagisa said "tomoya-kun, have you still not told sunohara about mom?", did anyone else think "naigisa... are you dumb or what... did you SERIOUSLY believe that tomoya wouldn't save this moment to savour"?

i gotta say, after story is totally awsome man! first we get some concentration of sanae-san:naughty:, then we're getting a misae-san episode next:love:... whats with the treats kyoani? is this their way going "lets get the fun stuff out the way before proceeding with some depressing stuff"

rainnydaiis

2008-10-24, 03:21

The ending of the sunohara/mei arc was pretty interesting. Even though it wasen't as tear jerking as the other arcs were. But seeing sunohara getting chased made it all worth it.

Mecha_Trueno

2008-10-24, 03:34

IRJustman

2008-10-24, 03:41

random thought.. when sanae-san says"akio-san wa watashi no otto desu"... anyone got a way of substituting your own name in there:heh: guess it'll be impossible to get it in inoue kikuko voice:(... unless you own conan's voice changing bow tie:heh:

That gimmick got REALLY old after the first seventy episodes or so, but then I digress; this IS a Clannad thread. ;)

--Ian.

Ruhisu

2008-10-24, 05:09

This episode was totally breath taking a specially in the moment with fight between Okazaki and Sunohara.
Also in the moment when this football team bastards were bullying Mei-chan I was feeling such anger that I wanted to jump into the monitor, and when I saw Mei-chan crying I felt a pain in my heart. But thankfully there was a happy ending and I've chaged my mind a lot about Sunohara.

Snuffle

2008-10-24, 05:29

Great ep, the soccar club guys are such jerks, got really worried there on what they were going to do with Mei-chan. But that fight afterwards was really good, I was at the edge of my seat applauding the amount of detail and choreography put into that scene.

Eczema

2008-10-24, 05:42

Gave this ep an 8. This arc didn't impact me as much as some of the others in the previous season, but then again, it was only 3 eps. They did a good job of portraying the soccer club as a gang of bastards, and it was oh-so satisfying seeing Sunohara FALCON KICK that guy.

As someone who's been in a lot of fights, I can confirm the bashing eachother then laughing together the next day to be accurate. That's how it works for guys I guess. When you get it out of your system with a few blows, it's quite easy to be on good terms afterwards.

BTW, anyone else think Ryou's eyes were exceptionally blue this ep?

rapidfire

2008-10-24, 06:53

Yes, the arc wasnt the greatest, but this episode makes up for it.
I loved the intensity between Youhei and Tomoya, even when they were fighting the soccer club together, and then casually started their own fight.
But it wouldnt have been complete without the ending. It was nice to see the conection between the two come through strong in the end. And the final part with the flashbacks definitly wrapped up this arc nicely. And along Youhei's "realisation" at the end ;)
But man, Nagisa has some really poor dialouge now. And coupled with polite form constantly even in the most serious moments throws me off sometimes.
Still, 10/10. Best episode in After story so far. But still a lot more to go. keep it up KyoAni

arkxkra

2008-10-24, 07:37

nice episode, those football member was really sux, luckily Sunohara manage to come back to his original self, but he still don't know Sanae was Nagisa mother, "father" part was really fun.

look frward to next episode, Misae arc, not bad.

Ruhisu

2008-10-24, 07:37

The moment when my blood started to boil was when one of football team members shoot the ball straight to Mei-chan's stomack. :frustrated::mad:

tzia_n

2008-10-24, 08:34

lol i guess sunohara's not just there for comedic purposes :heh:

Kristen

2008-10-24, 09:01

This episode did practically everything I was hoping for. An accurate depiction of the bubble finally bursting, Mei getting bullied, the dramatic step in, and the great Sunohara-Tomoya fight.

I have 2 issues with this episode, but they are pretty minor.

1. Kotomi needs to get shafted. She's becoming too much of a static character now. It was funny for a bit, still with her cluelessness and her violin. But at this point in the story, she's nothing EXCEPT that. There's a lot more to Kotomi than her moe points, but if Kyo-ani is just going to play into those, then they'd be better off shafting her.

2. The part before the OP was kind of stupid. Sure, it showed us Sunohara wasn't in school, but it was so short and showed so little, it could have been done without and thrown at the start of the episode. If there's nothing to show before the OP, don't.

9/10 for the 2 reasons above.

MeoTwister5

2008-10-24, 09:06

I'm still waiting for the Eclipse release, but the next episode teaser points to the Misae route? They can probably stuff that in 2 episodes at most. 3 might be pushing it too far.

Anime Daisuki

2008-10-24, 09:59

This episode was great. My only complaints were the cliche entrance by Sunohara when Mei was getting bullied. They did a great job portraying the Soccer Club as a bunch of assholes. I loved how they wrapped it up with flashbacks and the good old Tomoya screwing with Sunohara. It was sweet how they basically made up and met up the same way.

I think they did great with the choreographing of the fight. The facial expressions were right on key and the animation and voice acting was just perfect. The BGM fit the tone as well as the damp weather. 10/10.

Garkio gets some screen time!

hai_san

2008-10-24, 10:17

Great episode! Tomoya and Sunohara had such colorful past :p

when i saw the brawl i wish Tomoyo would be there and make some 1000 combo kick on the soccer guys...

Proto

2008-10-24, 10:21

2. The part before the OP was kind of stupid. Sure, it showed us Sunohara wasn't in school, but it was so short and showed so little, it could have been done without and thrown at the start of the episode. If there's nothing to show before the OP, don't.

The main purpose of that segment wasn't to show that Sunohara wasn't there, but as a mood setter. The use of silence, the absence of he who is needed, it basically there to remind you of the emotions you were left off with last episode. It is specially useful when there is a long break like this, and certainly more watcher friendly than having a full blown recap :p

And about Kotomi... well certainly we have been seeing some reuse of her trademark gags, but still I think the main point other than not shafting her and support the current main characters is to show her dynamics with the Fujibayashi sisters, and to show her evolved character after her route, which is quite interesting to see in retrospective.

Klashikari

2008-10-24, 10:49

yjs

2008-10-24, 11:01

Episode felt a bit forced until the fight scene, that was quite well done. So far After Story just doesn't seem as 'impactful' as season 1 material, but maybe it's just because of this arc.

Ruhisu

2008-10-24, 11:13

Youhei and Tomoya can be called now a real Bad Company for sure :)

Utau

2008-10-24, 11:46

lol i guess sunohara's not just there for comedic purposes :heh:

well, took him long enough to show his bad ass side.

when i saw the brawl i wish Tomoyo would be there and make some 1000 combo kick on the soccer guys...

I believe she was making preparations for her upcoming match against a certain someone today so she can't really be there playing with kids :p

Mirrinus

2008-10-24, 11:56

Excellent episode, especially the latter half with tension finally culminating in the brawl. I appreciate the bit at the end where Tomoya narrates why he became friends with Sunohara. It was pleasing to see that the two could still laugh with (or at?) each other after all they've been through.

I also rather enjoyed Nagisa's strong stance of going along with Tomoya and Mei to the soccer club the second time, with absolutely no hesitation. Could you imagine her doing something like that early in the first season?

And I'd imagine that the reason Tomoya wouldn't want to bring Tomoyo along was that making the student council president get into a fight on campus probably wasn't the best thing for her reputation. I doubt the soccer club would have yielded much to her authority anyway, by the looks of things. As for Kyou, well...a part of me thinks both her and Tomoyo would just as soon have beaten up on Sunohara as well. He barely survived the beating at the end; would he have lived with Tomoyo and Kyou thrown in?

Kinny Riddle

2008-10-24, 11:59

Despite knowing the soccer club goons were all dickheads beforehand, seeing them behaving like that to Mei all over again still makes my blood rage. And it was equally satisfying to once again see Sunohara redeem himself by beating the crap out of them. Well done, Sunohara, you deserve your moment of glory.

Sunohara behaved like a cold-hearted dick himself last episode, though his intentions were revealed as he and Tomoya engaged in their battle royale. He really does see a friend in Tomoya whom he could trust, despite Tomoya playing all these pranks on him all along.

Tomoya may never openly admit it (and maybe myself and most others here as well :cool: ), but Tomoya is probably grateful to have a friend in Sunohara, no matter how much of an idiot he is. His narrative at the end describing how they first met sums up that feeling of friendship as well.

Next episode, Misae-san! :love:

rave_master16

2008-10-24, 12:02

No complain on this episode's quality. Best quality is the climax scene when Tomoya tried to go one vs. all brawl and Sunohara came in.
They used the same animation in the illusionary world which added to the spice. Sweet.

Divini

2008-10-24, 12:21

Am I the only one that screamed:

FUCK YEAH!!!

when Youhei dashed in?

I think this episode had everything I could've hoped for -- Mei being rescued in oh so dramatic fashion, and especially the much hinted at Sunohara-Tomoya fight. I can see why people have liked this arc so much.

And the end.... OMG Tomoya is so cruel (though I was laughing my ass off about the time Tomoya said "I see, well good luck.") :heh:

Klashikari

2008-10-24, 12:31

I also rather enjoyed Nagisa's strong stance of going along with Tomoya and Mei to the soccer club the second time, with absolutely no hesitation. Could you imagine her doing something like that early in the first season?
Absolutely. Nagisa grew up really a lot over time, and she would obviously get upset and back off if she was still her previous self.
She is taking many initiatives in the course of the later part of S1, and it is even more blatant here. Definitely proactive and yet, it is not the end of her development.

Not as obvious as hers, Tomoya was shown grown up as well, even if he got to RAGE mode, but that was not without any good reason (I would honestly say that he should have done that a bit more early).

Kushi

2008-10-24, 13:37

Wow this episode was awesome! The fights the drama wow! 2 wows lol.... great episode now I wish more than ever that Sunohara ends up with someone now. I felt kinda sad how he was so into sanae and even thought he had a chance :(...

Gooo Sunohara get yourself a woman!

davie

2008-10-24, 15:06

This episode is brilliant.

Throughout season one of Clannad, Sunohara always got beat up in less than 2 seconds by Tomoyo and Tomoya never actually showed true anger, so you could say I was surprised (in a good way) to see the guy who gets beaten up by a girl constantly and the guy with arm problem (he sure can throw a punch) to be able to take on a group of soccer guys and then still have enough energy to fight amongst themselves. I haven't had the chance to play the game since I can't read Japanese so I'm completely oblivious to all the arcs so I judge the clannad series solely on the anime. The execution of story telling was great, and as I can tell from other posts, the anime managed to invoke feeling among the watchers (the part where the soccer team mistreats Mei, Nagisha, and Tomoyo and the part where the soccer captain (not sure) harasses Mei when she is crying). Also, good shows tend to explain show a flashback from the past and have the situation repeat itself again in similiar way (I.E. Tomoya and Sunohara laughing together after fights) and I think the technique was done excellently.

To sum it up, I was extremely happy with this episode with its beautiful animation, excellent story telling, and its ability to develop the characters' feelings. 10/10 !

Fennecus

2008-10-24, 15:25

Always a pleasure to see and hear Yukine.

cbatty

2008-10-24, 16:08

What a fantastic episode.

I haven't played the game either so I am oblivious to the arcs that are unfolding. For me, it is a week by week revelation of the story through the anime. From this point of view, I love this show and the strong bonds of family and friendship that exist between the main characters.

This episode really highlights that the relationships between the characters can't be broken by misunderstandings and arguements and the coming together by Tomoya and Sunohara was brilliant - both after their fight and when they first met back in first year. There was definitely a symmetry there.

Nagisa's development throughout the series has been a joy to watch. She had gone from such a timid and shy character to someone who can stand up for herself and what she believes in, and to protect her friends in time of need.

Can't wait for my next dose of Clannad next week. :D

Bennyswan

2008-10-24, 16:33

This episode is awesome

10/10 for me. :D

I loved the brawl scenes, I just wanted to beat the crap out of the soccer team. :P

monir

2008-10-24, 20:22

The episode seems to have invalidated a lot of the discussion in the previous episode thread where the focus was if Youhei was an asshole and that's how the game portrays him in a certain portion of the story. Episode 4 tells us, he is not! :) The soccer club, on the other hand,...... dear heavens.... a saint would loose it when dealing with those kind of people.

I loved Mei's line when she was telling Youhei, "I'm sorry Onichan" as those two, Youhei and Tomoya, were duking it out. I absolutely loved their take on each-other in their own misguided way.

Since I couldn't find much to complain about, I rated it a very good episode.

brocko

2008-10-24, 20:27

I can understand how fetching soccer balls was meant to portray the soccer team in a bad light, building up hate and dislike within the audience, but to me it just felt abit farfetch'd so some of the impact was somewhat lost on me. It would've been better if they were goalkeepers and had balls kick at them instead imo. I dunno maybe I'm just being nit-picky lol =P

Other than that though, it was a pretty nice episode, especially the way it ended.

rave_master16

2008-10-24, 20:44

Other than that though, it was a pretty nice episode, especially the way it ended.

My friend, I'm surprised you said it's a nice episode even though you rated it 1 which is painful.:p:D

For me, it's perfect adaptation of the game as they brought the key parts beautifully.

brocko

2008-10-24, 20:49

LOL! We can see what other people voted? :heh:
Anyway the 1 was just a little trolling on my behalf :p
I don't normally take part in the episode votes so i figured i mine as well have a little fun this time around lol =P

EDIT: And plus i don't believe in the fact that complex opinions can be represented by a mere number anyway. So er... a little bit of a rebellion vote as well perhaps? lol =P

IRJustman

2008-10-24, 21:51

LOL! We can see what other people voted? :heh:
Anyway the 1 was just a little trolling on my behalf :p
I don't normally take part in the episode votes so i figured i mine as well have a little fun this time around lol =P

For my part, being just a forumgoer, while trying not to bait anyone and trying not to be confrontational, I'd rather see honest and fair voting. While I'll give you some points for openly saying that you're being disingenuous with your voting, being disingenuous is just that, as well as being another word for "dishonest".

--Ian.

ReneeBurossamu

2008-10-24, 22:25

sikvod00

2008-10-24, 22:28

I know the soccer club being filled with a bunch of douchebags was just a mere plot device to build up the rage in Tomoya and finally get Sunohara to respond, but they still pissed me off. What they were doing was beyond the arrogant bullying typical of jocks; their actions were needlessly sadistic and utterly cruel. I'm surprised they haven't gotten an ass kicking before, courtesy of the student council president.

OceanBlue

2008-10-24, 22:33

I was sort of confused with the overall plot with this one and many others.

Mei came and Sunohara was getting a fake girlfriend, and suddenly it shifted to a real relationship? And now Mei thinks he's different not because he has a girl, but because he hasn't played soccer?
I didn't exactly get it. It didn't connect in my mind.
Anyway, animation was beautiful but it was kind of... I don't know. Anticlimactic with Mei crying for some reason. Probably because I don't understnad the whole "fake date with Sanae becomes a real relationship" thing.

Initially, it was set up for Mei, but Sunohara started believing that he could make a real relationship out of it and that Sanae really did like him. He became deluded [or deluded himself] and started believing it was a real relationship. That's why they added the bit about Sunohara finding out Sanae was really married to Akio at the end, so they could resolve the problem of Sunohara believing that there was actually something between them.

I personally thought it was anti-climatic because there was no change in the characters. There was a change in the viewer's impression of the characters, but the characters themselves didn't really go through much of a change, and even if they did, it wasn't large enough for a climax. Other than that, I loved this arc [probably also because the siblings are high on my favorite character list].

Edit:
I know the soccer club being filled with a bunch of douchebags was just a mere plot device to build up the rage in Tomoya and finally get Sunohara to respond, but they still pissed me off. What they were doing was beyond the arrogant bullying typical of jocks; their actions were needlessly sadistic and utterly cruel. I'm surprised they haven't gotten an ass kicking before, courtesy of the student council president.

I don't think that they being... douchebags [Rage!] was only a plot device. You can tell from the conversation in the beginning that the soccer club members were idiots anyway, but it probably also had to do with the fact that the only impression they had of Mei was from Sunohara and, to an extent, Tomoya. If their feelings for Sunohara were that strong, it would be understandable that they would consider Mei nothing but annoying when looking at her through their biased mindset. They haven't seen the Mei we've seen, after all.

Of course, that's no justification for the extent that they went to.

Reckoner

2008-10-24, 22:50

This was the best episode so far of the season. Clannad proves itself to be good once again when not focusing on Kotomi or Fuko (Especially Fuko). For whatever reason, male friendship seems to strike a chord in me when used with flashbacks in such a manner. A comparable feeling to the flashbacks in the movie Akira between the two main characters...

My main criticism of this arc lies in how the idea was executed. This was supposed to be about Sunohara not showing his care about Mei. The whole idea of using Sanae as a fake girl friend, while being funny for some, was VERY preposterous. I am not saying that the plot always has to be 100% believable or anything, but this goes a little beyond my standards of what is OK for suspension of belief. The Sunohara sibling arc could have been initiated in much better ways than this, and ultimately it harmed it a bit.

The rest of my criticisms are slight annoyances that I see in the episodes that are often countered with moe moments anyways.

Overall the arc gets an 8.5, this episode gets a 9/10.

Anime Daisuki

2008-10-24, 22:56

Well, we've seen how easily Sunohara is pleased. This and episode 1 were my favorite episodes of the season. I didn't like how the siblings arc started off but this last one saved it for me.

Farplaner

2008-10-24, 23:47

I think a lot of the mentioned issues about the script has to do with the anime being a continuous story while fitting all the arcs in.

If you think about it, it would make a lot more sense when in the game, each story arc is its own entity. Tomoya wouldn't be living with Nagisa. Mei wouldn't know Nagisa's family so well. And we don't get appearances from Kyou, Ryou and Kotomi. It would be a lot easier to stomach Mei not recognizing Sanae.

I appreciate KyoAni being faithful to the original material, and I'd say they're doing a very good job.

Kristen

2008-10-24, 23:59

The other fact with Kotomi is that shafting her would be much more a trouble than anything else.
Why suddenly remove her or reducing her implication, despite she is a very devoted friend to the cast?
That would be like removing Ryou from kyou's antics etc, it wouldn't make much sense in term of settings and consistency of said universe. Plainly speaking, it would be far more stupid to let her go MIA, while it can't be helped for Tomoyo considering how she is busy.
From her route until now, it would be ironically more logical to see Kyou and Ryou with Kotomi than Botan, for obvious reasons.

They could make her decide to study abroad, or have her graduate early or something. There are ways to shaft her. I mean, I love some of her interactions with Kyou/Ryou. And she is my favorite character. But I don't want her to become nothing more than just a clueless bad violin player. If that means that she has to disappear, then so be it.

Cloudkiller1

2008-10-25, 00:02

9.5/10 for me. Could have been perfect but not without its flaws which is rather minor. One of the better episode for AS thus far. Keep it up KyouAni!

Proto

2008-10-25, 00:28

They could make her decide to study abroad, or have her graduate early or something.

That would go against one of the major themes in her route, which was her getting out of her depressive bubble and open up to her school and social life. Seeing this Kotomi instead of the often self absorbed one is already result of major character development. Unless you want to have some character regression it is not viable :p

kk2extreme

2008-10-25, 00:50

where's fuko, will we see her soon, i kinda miss the random moments with her :heh:

anyways, there is one word for tomoya and youhei, BFF :p

Hao

2008-10-25, 01:52

Great ending to Sunohara's arc. It stayed quite faithful to the original. Seeing Tomoya and Sunohara brawl like that was crazy! I would've liked it better if we had got to see a farewell with Mei and Sunohara.
But still 10/10 for me! Misae next!!

Ascaloth

2008-10-25, 04:16

I couldn't muster up the energy to do 2 articles in one day, but here's the Ep 4 article finally;

[RIUVA] CLANNAD ~After Story~, Episode 4 (http://www.riuva.com/?p=1281)

Simply put, a "10/10 is not enough" episode. Good job, Key. Good job, KyoAni.

Ceral

2008-10-25, 05:23

If I said that I thought this episode could have been better, would that be a criticism on KyoAni's adaptation or more on the original story? If it was really true to the game, I guess one can't really complain about the plot when the plot is just an adaptation trying to be true to the original. So maybe this is more a criticism of the game than the episode... But either way, this episode, this story arc, didn't have the effect on me that past KyoAni arcs have had.

From the start, Sanae dating Sunohara seemed like something done for comedic effect. But after completing the arc, it seemed to me it was actually a very important and serious plot device used to make us despise Sunohara and hate him, thereby actually making us care and also get emotionally invested in his character. They probably wanted us to hate Sunohara by showing that a simple infatuation with a girl he's barely even met could get him to forget about important things like school, his friends and his sister. The viewer was really supposed to hate him in order to take the arc seriously. But for me, since he liked Sanae, of all people, I kind of just found it... comedic and for him to not be more curious about her actual age or to want to know more about her, I thought it was too perfect for it to be believable. I think if they had cut out the whole thing about them even finding a fake girlfriend and had him be infatuated with a new girl that was introduced to us just for this arc, who was portrayed to the viewer as someone who didn't even really care for Sunohara but was just dating him for fun or some no good reason, there would have been much more dramatic effect. Also the Mei dating Okazaki thing, seemed ridiculous. I mean Nagisa is by Okazaki's side the whole time during the fake date and also during the visits with Sunohara. Sunohara had to have known that there was something wrong with that, for him to actually buy into that nonsense without wanting to know more details before actually believing that Okazaki had broken up with Nagisa, it defies all logic for me... I guess the impact of this episode depends on whether you believe that Sunohara could be so easily tricked or disillusioned.

That was more a rant about the story arc I guess, for the episode, the whole soccer team being pure evil was just kind of cliche and overdone. The whole picking up the balls thing, I was just thinking, "Oh man, are you really going to make this into a 'pity scene'"?, Sure enough, they did, it would have been much more refreshing if they had just gritted their teeth through it, I mean they did say they'd do anything, after all that pleading and how reluctant the soccer team was, of course there was going to be some sort of foul play, I thought the characters would have been more smart to that. When Mei got hit and then was picked up, I was just thinking the whole time how cliched it was and "Wow, they really went that far.", instead of getting pissed at the soccer team. The whole soccer team being the lowest common denominators, I just didn't buy.

So, not an epic episode for me, but I actually did think it had the makings of one. The montage at the end of Sunohara and Okazaki's friendship was touching but too brief and not played out, I think they really could have exploited that much much more for dramatic effect, a lot of things probably could have been done to make it feel more like one of those "epic" KyoAni episodes, like they usually have when they conclude a character arc. I guess I'm a little bit of the belief that KyoAni isn't quite up to par yet as it was in the past, but it's a bit premature to say that. Still, some doubt is creeping in on whether they can top their previous works.

wtfftw

2008-10-25, 06:25

OK so this ep was totally great.

Those soccer guys are funny as hell lol. I mean do guys in japan actually make such pranks because i cant imagine stuff like this ever happening so it seems so unreal to me that i see it as a big joke. I mean letting people catch the ball thats out is like most lamest thing i have yet ever seen in my life of soccer. So i stand by what brocko said cuz its hard to grasp how people actually go stand behind a goal and fetch balls and expect that they will get their way. Thats like unimaginable if you ever have been a soccer player unless your from japan xD

Anyway Mei has for me been an annoyance since the start. Crying at some soccer team hideout >.>. I was actually glad that the girl at the library actually told mei Straight that she shouldn't be focusing on the bad points but also on the good points.

and apparently Mei or rather Okazaki is a masochist because they wanted Sunohara to run back at them and punch him in the face like their little brawl at the end of the chapter.

The ending with Sunohara and akio was fun as hell xP

"AKIO SAN" ??? ooh snap:heh:

Mei came and Sunohara was getting a fake girlfriend, and suddenly it shifted to a real relationship? And now Mei thinks he's different not because he has a girl, but because he hasn't played soccer?
I didn't exactly get it. It didn't connect in my mind.

Still don't get the plot though. Probably because I don't understand the whole "fake date with Sanae becomes a real relationship" thing.
Mei finally understand she was being annoying. Thats why she said sorry, thats what i understand of her saying sorry and which is why i was annoyed with her in the 1st place. There was nothing that was wrong with Snohara other then something in Mei's head. Because neither Okazaki or Nagisa were troubled about Sunohara until Mei starting saying stuff like

"Im sorry that my brother is troubling you" while she is living at another familys house.

The episode seems to have invalidated a lot of the discussion in the previous episode thread where the focus was if Youhei was an asshole and that's how the game portrays him in a certain portion of the story. Episode 4 tells us, he is not! The soccer club, on the other hand,...... dear heavens.... a saint would loose it when dealing with those kind of people.

I loved Mei's line when she was telling Youhei, "I'm sorry Onichan" as those two, Youhei and Tomoya, were duking it out. I absolutely loved their take on each-other in their own misguided way.

Since I couldn't find much to complain about, I rated it a very good episode. I like this version of Sunohara and which is why im rooting for him he is good good. he is just used for comic relief^^. I mean Sunohara gets KO by tomoyo yet can take an entire team of soccer players any day.:heh:

Last about the soccer Team everyone hated them but i dont really see em as that bad as in harassing/devil/scumbags/etc i mean why are they so bad because Mei cried? And im not trying to go into a fight with people here but just look at it from their perspective.

They are guys who are annoying i agree, But Mei is pushing stuff to the point where they are like WTF do you want from me. I mean if a group of guys already hates someone and they have a serious fight yet the school doesn't handle it properly and they are still in their place. Its understandable that they are going to badmouth about Sunohara in front of your face. Its not like they are gonna say hey we love sunohara. Then Mei and co keep asking if he can rejoin 3 of 4 times. Sorry but i would get annoyed too if someone keeps asking the same question and i said NO. Its like an annoying reporter that keeps asking you stuff while you dont wanna answer. I mean even the 2nd attempt. The guy finally wants to play some ball, he was already making a softer judgment yet they (Mei and co) push so much even bow that it because an annoyance. SO i can sorta understand why it went the way it went. Sunohara wouldnt just leave that place if he didnt believed it was hopeless

Taricitous

2008-10-25, 10:12

Neatly concluded :) rest have been said, shame tomoyo wasnt in this episode :(

Kaioshin Sama

2008-10-25, 14:39

I tend to agree with the sentiment that the soccer team thing was a bit much and possibly even over the top. I have a hard time buying that your average Japanese soccer team would get off that much on making a little girl's day a living hell, but I suppose it's fiction and as I've said before this is the Sunohara arc and I've come to expect that level of overkill by now. Hence I set my expectations at about a below average level and they were slightly exceeded, but I don't know whether that says that Kyoani did an excellent job in exceeding them or that I just wasn't expecting a whole lot out of this arc and ended up not entirely underwhelmed. Relativism is an incredible thing isn't it?

rave_master16

2008-10-25, 17:33

OK so this ep was totally great.

Last about the soccer Team everyone hated them but i don't really see them as that bad as in harassing/devil/scumbags/etc i mean why are they so bad because Mei cried? And i'm not trying to go into a fight with people here but just look at it from their perspective.

They are guys who are annoying i agree, But Mei is pushing stuff to the point where they are like WTF do you want from me. I mean if a group of guys already hates someone and they have a serious fight yet the school doesn't handle it properly and they are still in their place. Its understandable that they are going to badmouth about Sunohara in front of your face. Its not like they are gonna say hey we love sunohara. Then Mei and co keep asking if he can rejoin 3 of 4 times. Sorry but i would get annoyed too if someone keeps asking the same question and i said NO. Its like an annoying reporter that keeps asking you stuff while you don't wanna answer. I mean even the 2nd attempt. The guy finally wants to play some ball, he was already making a softer judgment yet they (Mei and co) push so much even bow that it because an annoyance. SO i can sorta understand why it went the way it went. Sunohara wouldn't just leave that place if he didn't believed it was hopeless

Looking in other perspective, if they were very annoyed, it does not give them the right to bully someone. Kick a ball to a little girl's gut. And laugh their ass out while making other's suffer.
I still don't get their perspective. If they are normal club members, even their hate to the guy does not give them the right to hurt the sister of the guy. Looking on my perspective, they are just sadists.
Yeah, asking thousand times are annoying as hell, but that does not justify their own sins. They are really scumbags really. Way way lower than Sunohara.

Forever

2008-10-25, 18:21

rave_master16

2008-10-25, 18:32

A very powerful and emotional arc. Though seeing Mei getting hit by the ball made me boil.

Somehow I wasnt suprised sunohara could take on the entire soccer team. Lol he is a tanking character. (He must have loads of HP and armor to take on such a beating from tomoyo and still walk) If he can take those hits from Tomoyo, the entire soccer team shouldnt be too much a problem at all.

Lol If I was a do a estimated stats on sunohara

Lvl 20 Sunohara

Str 55
Dex 60 (Nice hit!)
Vit 255 (must be to survive tomoyo kicks)
Speed 35 (took you too long to come to rescue Mei)
HP: 99999 with break HP limit (to survive tomoyo kicks)
Int: 10 (not very smart)
Evade: 5 (never evaded tomoyo kicks before)
Luck: 5 (horrible bad luck in general)

Lvl 20 Tomoya
Str:50
Dex: 100
Vit: 50
Speed: 50
HP: 1999
Int: 100
Evade: 150 (he has good evasion)
Luck: 215 (God like luck to have a possible harem if he wants)

Lvl 99 Tomoyo
Str:255
Dex: 255
Vit: 30
Speed: 255
HP: 888
Int: 150
Evade: 255
Luck: 50
Auto-haste

Soccer player
Lvl 3
Str:50
Dex: 35
Vit: 35
Speed: 35
HP: 500
Int: 60
Evade: 20
Luck: 25

LOL is it just me or is this an RPG thread sample? I read about the request for new thread about an RPG Clannad thread. Is this a part of it? :p:D

wtfftw

2008-10-25, 19:45

Looking in other perspective, if they were very annoyed, it does not give them the right to bully someone. Kick a ball to a little girl's gut. And laugh their ass out while making other's suffer.
I still don't get their perspective. If they are normal club members, even their hate to the guy does not give them the right to hurt the sister of the guy. Looking on my perspective, they are just sadists.
Yeah, asking thousand times are annoying as hell, but that does not justify their own sins. They are really scumbags really. Way way lower than Sunohara.I agree with you. However she got what she asked for, she has been warned numerous times by tomoya and everyone around her not to go to that club for her own good. However since she is stubborn she keeps on digging in stuff her older brother should solve himself.

Now the guy told her to go home she didnt listen keeps on asking the same question what been answered. Apparently it only became clear after she got the ball shot at her that she wasnt gonna have her way. Since the world simply doenst roll like that.

Your right Its very hidoi to shoot a ball at a girl. I honestly agree with ya rave^^. Thats why i never play soccer with girls its freaking annoying cuz you they always say you play too rough and crap.

Im from Surinam and i live in holland. Now we made this game in soccer its called "Panna". Its a game you play on the streets. Your just playing soccer like usual but the point is to shoot the ball between someone legs. Now if that happens you gotta run for your life because anyone who is playing can kick or hit you how hard they like UNTIL you hit an agreed upon spot with your hand so that you dont have to be hit anymore. We also have 1 in which you have points and if you lose your last points every guy who didnt lose can shoot a ball at you how hard like and however they like. So im a bit used to the rough life I could name more type of soccer games we have here but you get my grip.

Reason why im telling you this is because being hit by a ball in soccer is like so common to happen. I was actually waiting for a ball to be shot at one of them cuz i had a feeling it would happen and even though i didnt say it. I laughed like hell when it happened. I myself have had a ball been shot at my balls and yes i was down in the dirt for 30 seconds but thats life^^.

So to be honest the way Mei is spoiled as she was thinking she could get her way and pushing it at those guys. She learned it the hard way and i found it somewhat funny.

But i dont get why people would "fetch" balls that's so lame So like the rest i dont get that. agreeing to fetching balls imo just means your crazy.

@forever dont make such a post with HP dex and stuff man ^^ you make me wanna play MMoRPGs again and I was just off that drug called MMoRPG I loled at the stats of sunohara

Mecha_Trueno

2008-10-25, 20:59

A very powerful and emotional arc. Though seeing Mei getting hit by the ball made me boil.

Somehow I wasnt suprised sunohara could take on the entire soccer team. Lol he is a tanking character. (He must have loads of HP and armor to take on such a beating from tomoyo and still walk) If he can take those hits from Tomoyo, the entire soccer team shouldnt be too much a problem at all.

Lol If I was a do a estimated stats on sunohara

Lvl 20 Sunohara

Str 55
Dex 60 (Nice hit!)
Vit 255 (must be to survive tomoyo kicks)
Speed 35 (took you too long to come to rescue Mei)
HP: 99999 with break HP limit (to survive tomoyo kicks)
Int: 10 (not very smart)
Evade: 5 (never evaded tomoyo kicks before)
Luck: 5 (horrible bad luck in general)

Lvl 20 Tomoya
Str:50
Dex: 100
Vit: 50
Speed: 50
HP: 1999
Int: 100
Evade: 150 (he has good evasion)
Luck: 215 (God like luck to have a possible harem if he wants)

Lvl 99 Tomoyo
Str:255
Dex: 255
Vit: 30
Speed: 255
HP: 888
Int: 150
Evade: 255
Luck: 50
Auto-haste

Soccer player
Lvl 3
Str:50
Dex: 35
Vit: 35
Speed: 35
HP: 500
Int: 60
Evade: 20
Luck: 25lol i agree with sunohara's HP.

so how does kyou do in this?

IBut i dont get why people would "fetch" balls that's so lame So like the rest i dont get that. agreeing to fetching balls imo just means your crazy.dunno if you know this. but in japan, in sports clubs at school its pretty much the norm for first years to do lame tasks like picking up balls and tidying up after club activities etc. agreeing to fetch the balls was just way of saying "yes, i'll do anything if you hear us out and give us a chance, even lame errand boy stuff"

king12354

2008-10-25, 21:57

I just wanted to say that the upperclassmen should've left school after Sunohara's first year and that the captain shouldn't really care since he was probably a first-year with Sunohara.
Also, I thought that this arc in the game affected me more deeply than this adaptation. I don't remember why... maybe this part went by too quickly.

typhonsentra

2008-10-25, 22:16

I was kinda hoping for a bro hug.

Anime Daisuki

2008-10-25, 22:36

I just wanted to say that the upperclassmen should've left school when Sunohara was a first-year and that the captain shouldn't really care since he was probably a first-year with Sunohara.

Yea, I didn't understand that either. Plot hole maybe? Any Game Vets can answer this?

rave_master16

2008-10-25, 22:46

Yea, I didn't understand that either. Plot hole maybe? Any Game Vets can answer this?

Well better ask it in other threads. Don't know either. Maybe, the club was suspended in joining tournaments because of the chaos caused by Sunohara. That's why they hate Sunohara. Just a speculation.

Im from Surinam and i live in holland. Now we made this game in soccer its called "Panna". Its a game you play on the streets. Your just playing soccer like usual but the point is to shoot the ball between someone legs. Now if that happens you gotta run for your life because anyone who is playing can kick or hit you how hard they like UNTIL you hit an agreed upon spot with your hand so that you dont have to be hit anymore. We also have 1 in which you have points and if you lose your last points every guy who didnt lose can shoot a ball at you how hard like and however they like. So im a bit used to the rough life I could name more type of soccer games we have here but you get my grip

Well I would LOL really if that happened.:D Better use metal pants for that one.:p

Kaisos Erranon

2008-10-25, 22:48

Yea, I didn't understand that either. Plot hole maybe? Any Game Vets can answer this?

In the game, it was Sunohara's own fault that he was kicked off the team, as I recall.

He started fights and was generally a whiny dick, and that is why they threw him out and why no one likes him now.

(I think this is correct? It's been a while.)

In anime canon, they probably just don't like him because their seniors told them not to. Or something.

Who cares anyway, Sunohara kicking the crap out of them was AWESOME regardless.

Ceral

2008-10-26, 00:42

Last about the soccer Team everyone hated them but i dont really see em as that bad as in harassing/devil/scumbags/etc i mean why are they so bad because Mei cried? And im not trying to go into a fight with people here but just look at it from their perspective.

Thinking about it from the Soccer team's perspective... I think that in some weird way, they were actually the victims in all this. I mean they didn't want anything to do with Sunohara in the first place, but Mei & Tomoya pretty much needled them so much that it was as if they were kind of trying to incite some kind of violent retaliation from the Soccer Team, I mean you know who you're dealing with, it's not like they're all of a sudden going to start negotiating with you intelligently. If you think about it, it was almost as if our main characters were asking for a fight, which ironically ended up being the solution to Mei and Sunohara's problems. It seems as if our delinquent protagonists were the ones actually picking a fight and for their own selfish reasons :heh:.

Sure, the Soccer team happened to be a bunch of low lives, but they really did just want to be left alone. They didn't have anything to gain from that fight, it's almost as if they got manipulated into getting into a fight where they were the bad guys, just because the other side had a girl. Think about it this way: if it was just Tomoya and Sunohara coming to plead with them, it probably would have been viewed as them being merciful if all they did was kick a ball and pick them up:heh:. Don't get me wrong now, I don't think it's ever right to hit a girl, but in some way, I can't help but think our main characters were actually the bullies in all this! And that the Soccer team were the victims. Think about it: Through no fault of their own, they probably have to walk around school looking like a bunch of bruised up, bandaged, ugly sons of bitches just like Tomoya and Sunohara because of what those two did to them!

Master Chibi

2008-10-26, 00:43

God you guys whine so much.

WHY ARE THERE BAD GUYS IN THIS ARC, I HAVE A HARD TIME BELIEVING THEY'RE REALLY BAD PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY PLAY SOCCER.

I liked this arc waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better then everything we've seen up until now except for ep 24 (Tomoyo x Tomoya), it's nice to see some honest to god emotion in this show that I can enjoy.

Also I'm sick of the lesbian brigade of Kotomi / Kyou / Ryou already.

Ceral

2008-10-26, 01:11

Well, this is a discussion thread. This is definitely the right place to air any complaints or criticisms. Besides, I think the people heaping on the rather exuberant praise far outnumbers those who want to actually discuss problems with the episode. If you don't want to hear other peoples opinions I would stay away from a discussion thread. No shame in that, if I see what I think is a flawless episode, I don't always want to bog myself down with what the would-be critics have to say about the episode. Sometimes I just want to enjoy it. But sometimes I think it's interesting to hear what the other side has to say, even if I completely disagree with it.

God you guys whine so much.
...
Also I'm sick of the lesbian brigade of Kotomi / Kyou / Ryou already.

:confused: :D

IRJustman

2008-10-26, 01:39

WHY ARE THERE BAD GUYS IN THIS ARC, I HAVE A HARD TIME BELIEVING THEY'RE REALLY BAD PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY PLAY SOCCER.

velocity7 says he has issues with how this particular episode was handled. However, I cannot speak to the faithfulness to the events depicted in the game these are supposed to parallel, so I have no point of reference to comment. About all I can say is perhaps they went a bit over the top on this one.

Personally, I don't give a flying flip WHAT they play, or even whether they play sports. I think people were reacting to the abominable treatment Mei received at the team's grimy meathooks, for which I believe these losers deserve more than a summary ass-kicking. If they did that with my own sister, I would do my level best to make sure these guys would require a trip to an ER.

Also I'm sick of the lesbian brigade of Kotomi / Kyou / Ryou already.

Just what gives you the idea that they're lesbians? I have never seen anything that even HINTS at anything like what you describe. Just because they're friends and they happen to be female doesn't make them lesbians. Not to mention, TWO of the three are sisters, so no lesbian activity possible there.

--Ian.

tzia_n

2008-10-26, 03:14

alex253320

2008-10-26, 03:20

I never thought they could make an episode better than a route in the game. well I couldn't be more wrong. This was one of my favorites episodes so far perfect adaptation of the game except for the fact that nagisa was there all the time which just makes it even more amazing. 11/10

Phoenix_Cypher_K1

2008-10-26, 03:34

though seriously where the hell is KRK being lesbians coming from? and what's the significance? (and what's the issue? :heh:)

I'm guessing people are saying so because so far in the last two episodes all three of them are seen entering the scene at the same time :D

This ep was fantastic, especially the fight in the rain between Sunohara and Tomoya. 10/10 from me.

Ceral

2008-10-26, 03:48

tsk tsk tsk, only named characters matter in anime, who cares about those soccer boys :heh: that's like anime rule number <insert number here> :heh:

though seriously where the hell is KRK being lesbians coming from? and what's the significance? (and what's the issue? :heh:)

There's no significance or issue here. Someone was just expressing their dislike of having Kotomi, Kyou, and Ryou having a cameo in every episode with a rather questionable adjective... I don't know why that was misconstrued. Also I don't think anyone was asking for the soccer boys to have an epic storyline that explained why they were a-holes either:heh:. I know that would be the last thing I'd want to watch Clannad for. Myself, I just thought the whole Soccer Team incident escalating into a fight was a bit cliche and had it's fair share of plotholes.

brocko

2008-10-26, 03:59

I just found it funny how they were stereotyped as your typical anime gangstas (well the captain at least), what with the speech pattern, head and facial expressions and what not :heh:

SkoolRumble4Ya

2008-10-26, 04:20

Well they can't have them looking like pretty boys trying to be tough because it won't seem real.

rapidfire

2008-10-26, 05:35

wtfftw

2008-10-26, 05:36

dunno if you know this. but in japan, in sports clubs at school its pretty much the norm for first years to do lame tasks like picking up balls and tidying up after club activities etc. agreeing to fetch the balls was just way of saying "yes, i'll do anything if you hear us out and give us a chance, even lame errand boy stuff"For real i didnt know this man. If thats the case that i find it sad that all those 1st year japanese kids are being oppressed we need a revolution.

I only know that adults in our country or a coach pretty much wouldnt allow such a thing. We have like this unspoken rule here in holland that if you shoot a ball way off your the one responsible so your gonna get it. So you rather not shoot way off.

I think thats why i like ryouma (prince of tennis) cuz he never wasnt going to ffetch balls 1 year long he just owned him to show them what he was worth.

Anyway a group of guys i means high school guys like 7 or more of them is never any good lol cuz their are bound to do crazy annoying stuff. Hell i i know our team could be annoying too.

@Ceral :heh::heh::heh::heh::heh::heh::heh::heh::heh:

Ascaloth

2008-10-26, 05:44

One plothole
If Youhei got into the fight with the 3rd years back when he was in 1st year, and now he is a 3rd year, WHY do the soccer club people hate him?
He fought the 3RD YEARS back then because of the hiarachy system that they had built, and were treating 1st years unfairly.
Shouldnt the soccer club now like him (or not even know him) coz they were in the SAME position as he was 2 years back? He defended their rights.

I dont really get it

People are driven to conform. These guys may be in the same year as Sunohara, but they're the ones who did what the latter couldn't take; bow their heads down to their seniors. When your initiation into that kind of group is like that, you generally expect your juniors to do the same when it's your turn to be the seniors. When there's a guy who tries to be deviant, there is a LOT of social pressure on the guy to conform, even amongst his peers. That is what's happening here; I had absolutely no problems with the scene because I've been through something similar myself, and my studies in sociology have helped me to confirm that this is nothing unusual.

That's all I can remember off the top of my head, so if you guys want to hear more, I'll dig up my textbook when I get home.

Shinji103

2008-10-26, 05:57

http://randomc.maximum7.net/image/CLANNAD/CLANNAD%20~AFTER%20STORY~%20-%2004%20-%20Large%20Preview%2001.jpg

Y’know, I just noticed, but…..she’s the spitting image of Chitose Karasuma from Galaxy Angel in this shot here… :twitch:

http://galaxyangel.wikia.com/wiki/Chitose_Karasuma

Dark blue hair.....red ribbon tied in a bow.......the way her hair is held up by the ribbon......the resemblance is uncanny.

Shinigami_Mello

2008-10-26, 12:38

As always, the soccer team was highly frustrating to watch, but, something irked me about their character designs.
I know, making them look unlikeable will make us dislike them more, but can we atleast make some of them look normal? I dont know why, but it annoyed me.
Maybe if they just stuck to a little more normalish character designs for them?

But anyway, the episode was the usual of course, till the end. Which was the best part of the game arc. I loved how they did the fight between Sunohara and the soccer club and the two in the rain.
I also liked the memories of their friendship because thos kind of memories always get to me.

And one final thing, inserting KRK everywhere is annoying me too. I love em as much as the next person, but geez. The only place where it was called for was Ryou running to them in the classroom. Kyou maybe would be understandable too since she's next door, but Kotomi came running in too? And then at the very end, they popped up out of no where. I dont mind cameos and all, but this is a little much.

Anyway, for some reason, this episode didnt satisfy me as much as the games arc did so..I'll give it an 8/10. I still cant pinpoint why though..

rave_master16

2008-10-26, 13:01

Thinking about it from the Soccer team's perspective... I think that in some weird way, they were actually the victims in all this. I mean they didn't want anything to do with Sunohara in the first place, but Mei & Tomoya pretty much needled them so much that it was as if they were kind of trying to incite some kind of violent retaliation from the Soccer Team, I mean you know who you're dealing with, it's not like they're all of a sudden going to start negotiating with you intelligently. If you think about it, it was almost as if our main characters were asking for a fight, which ironically ended up being the solution to Mei and Sunohara's problems. It seems as if our delinquent protagonists were the ones actually picking a fight and for their own selfish reasons :heh:.

Sure, the Soccer team happened to be a bunch of low lives, but they really did just want to be left alone. They didn't have anything to gain from that fight, it's almost as if they got manipulated into getting into a fight where they were the bad guys, just because the other side had a girl. Think about it this way: if it was just Tomoya and Sunohara coming to plead with them, it probably would have been viewed as them being merciful if all they did was kick a ball and pick them up:heh:. Don't get me wrong now, I don't think it's ever right to hit a girl, but in some way, I can't help but think our main characters were actually the bullies in all this! And that the Soccer team were the victims. Think about it: Through no fault of their own, they probably have to walk around school looking like a bunch of bruised up, bandaged, ugly sons of bitches just like Tomoya and Sunohara because of what those two did to them!

Um. Bullying? Our main characters are actually pleading to ask favors. How can you say Tomoya and Mei are bullying the soccer team members? I don't get it.:p :heh: Tomoya and Mei didn't want any fight especially Tomoya. They know what they're dealing. That's why Tomoya has a lot of patience even after they were defamed ( bowing his head to the soccer president, even had patience after the soccer members' cocky comments like Tomoya and Nagisa as hopeless persons. And then after the main characters did the president's favor, not only they denied the favor, they also bullied Mei by dragging her by one hand while she's crying?
Isn't that bullying.?

Actually the soccer team could have reacted in other ways. The reason why Tomoya and Sunohara lounged into fight it's because Mei was bullied.
Put yourself in the soccer member's position, is it ever right to do that? If you are asked for favors, will you react the same way they did?

And victims? Tomoya and Mei are just asking for favors. Their goal is to convince the soccer members to play with Sunohara. I know they persistent. But they mean no harm. Tomoya patiently (even with his delinquent attitude) waited and did things normally for Mei's and Nagisa's sake.
Soccer members are actually provoking a fight by defaming the main, make them suffer, bullying them.
Let's ask Kotomi. Ijimekko?

Solafighter

2008-10-26, 13:19

What an episode! :twitch:

15 out of 10 : Awsome

The scene when Okazaki is walking to the scoccer guy, who is holding Mei ... BAAAAAAM! :heh:

dammit have to watch it again. :D

siber222000

2008-10-26, 14:13

great episode.

funny how when i played clannad visual novel, i somehow got the same ending from this episode on the game. *started a new file to see what kind of path i will go if i didn't use the guide* great arc nevertheless

Ceral

2008-10-26, 15:33

Um. Bullying? Our main characters are actually pleading to ask favors. How can you say Tomoya and Mei are bullying the soccer team members? I don't get it.:p :heh: Tomoya and Mei didn't want any fight especially Tomoya. They know what they're dealing. That's why Tomoya has a lot of patience even after they were defamed ( bowing his head to the soccer president, even had patience after the soccer members' cocky comments like Tomoya and Nagisa as hopeless persons. And then after the main characters did the president's favor, not only they denied the favor, they also bullied Mei by dragging her by one hand while she's crying?
Isn't that bullying.?

Actually the soccer team could have reacted in other ways. The reason why Tomoya and Sunohara lounged into fight it's because Mei was bullied.
Put yourself in the soccer member's position, is it ever right to do that? If you are asked for favors, will you react the same way they did?

And victims? Tomoya and Mei are just asking for favors. Their goal is to convince the soccer members to play with Sunohara. I know they persistent. But they mean no harm. Tomoya patiently (even with his delinquent attitude) waited and did things normally for Mei's and Nagisa's sake.
Soccer members are actually provoking a fight by defaming the main, make them suffer, bullying them.
Let's ask Kotomi. Ijimekko?

I was just trying to make a fun observation in good humor(I'm not really trying to defend this point of view, just present an alternative view and maybe try to give it some validity). Obviously the soccer players are a bunch of scum. Anyone who would kick a ball at Mei much less pick her up is the spawn of satan and deserves more than just a few knuckle sandwiches.

But if you look at the big picture, at the start, you have one side who is just looking to be left alone, and the other side is asking for a favor the other side wants no part of. If you were asked to play ball with someone you hated and gotten into a fight with, for a reason that didn't make much sense to you, would you agree? I would probably ask for an explanation and probably be annoyed when I thought the idea didn't make sense and that they were asking for an unreasonable request; Just how is playing soccer with someone going to help them stop being a delinquent? I would have heard them out and then tried to give them some advice like go study more or something :heh:.

Looking at the big picture again, in the end, who really benefited from this fight? I would say that our protagonists did since they finally got Sunohara back to his old self and Mei to understand that she was being instrusive and annoying by meddling in her Big Brother's life. The soccer team just got a beating and maybe learned a lesson to not pick on girls.

In summary, although it wasn't their intention to get into a fight, I would say they were the ones who were responsible for starting the fight in the first place by not going away and since they were the ones to benefit from the fight taking place. I know it's a strange way to look at it, but they're kind of like the bad guys because it was their actions in the first place that started the fight and they were the only ones to benefit from it(If you look at the big picture. I know that they weren't really looking for a fight and didn't think that a fight was what was going to solve their problems. But in the end, it did.).

It would be like a group of boys who hit a ball into the yard of an ill tempered dog. The dog now has something the boys want, but it's an ill tempered dog that's barking, growling and hissing at the boys. If one of the boys went into the yard with the intention to get the ball and got bit, and then the boys retaliated by throwing stones at the dog, who's really the perpetrator in all this? The dog just wanted to be left alone, it doesn't really understand why the boys want that ball. And then, if the boys somehow get the ball back by bruising and bloodying the dog up and frightening it away, I think the boys are kind of the bad guys here. Sure, we'd like friendlier dogs, but can you really blame the dog? And of course dogs and humans are different, but I just present this as food for thought...

phishn37

2008-10-26, 21:33

Nochgo

2008-10-26, 21:33

I really enjoyed the episode. It was awesome seeing Sunohara stepping up to beat up the guy who was bullying Mei, and the fight scene between Tomoya and Sunohara with the flashback was very nice. Always add the rain to enhance the mood, hehehe. The only part that I thought was a bit out of place was the soccer ball picking up part, rather a bit drawn out. And the depiction of soccer members... I felt like I was watching an anime from the 90's. The last bit where Sunohara finds out about Nagisa's mom was funny too.

Kaisos Erranon

2008-10-26, 21:46

Uhhhhh.
As much as I like Clannad, I can't help but find this arc pretty... stupid. The drama is waay overplayed and unrealistic. Like, they just say the dumbest things in this arc... and how Okazaki and Sunohara met was so cheesy and corny. Hope it gets better, becuase it looks like a new arc is beginning.

You can't blame KyoAni for this, though... it's basically a straight adaptation of the game's arc...

And the new arc is also epic. New character ftw.

Proto

2008-10-26, 22:27

Well, no one is blaming KyoAni though, he is just describing his take on a plot as it is. A shame really though, but to each to his own.

For me for example, I'm not terribly expectant about the upcoming episodes, since I'm not high on Misae but other people might find it more interesting. One of the most valuable ups of having multiple characters developed and having a richer plot. You have more probabilities of having someone whose plot you can relate to :p

velvet

2008-10-26, 23:17

IMO, a lot rushed ending for this arc. I may be one of a few people dissapointed with this arc (not with the episode specifically)

1. The episode confirmed one arc sealed, so I was thinking if kyoani would incorporated Koumura's arc within the Sunohara's arc (partially). I was waiting for the parting scene with Mei at the ending and it never happened.
One youhei's line that made me get teary
"Mei, let your brother be an idiot for another year".

2. It might need spoiler tag, the anime sure miss the strong explanation of youhei. He is not just a delinquent badass. He is a support to tomoya, just very much Tomoya is a support to him.
Let us imagine if the two of them never met at all. None of them would make it to their third year. They would not be able to stand the pressure of being "alone" in the school, no matter how tough they act, if the hadn't meet and start supporting each other (I know I couldn't stand it). The negai kanau basho ni that I heard at the end was too short T_T They could explained a lot more.

At the whole episode, I was also clenching my fist, "Nagisa's health, Nagisa's health,Nagisa's health, goddammit" That tomoya had her running around and puther crying in the middle of the rain....^*^(#(!*@&(*#@

@_@ dissapointed with the arc.

Kaisos Erranon

2008-10-26, 23:24

As I recall, Tomoya wouldn't shut up about Nagisa's health the entire episode.

Tomoya never forced her into anything... she wanted to help out.

Proto

2008-10-26, 23:24

They already had that scene partially with Mei's first farewell back in the first season. Though the Koumura lesson and reason and to why he let Sunohara And Tomoya meet was missed. Nothing too important though, personally I was satisfied with how they portrayed this arc.

rapidfire

2008-10-27, 05:06

People are driven to conform. These guys may be in the same year as Sunohara, but they're the ones who did what the latter couldn't take; bow their heads down to their seniors. When your initiation into that kind of group is like that, you generally expect your juniors to do the same when it's your turn to be the seniors. When there's a guy who tries to be deviant, there is a LOT of social pressure on the guy to conform, even amongst his peers. That is what's happening here; I had absolutely no problems with the scene because I've been through something similar myself, and my studies in sociology have helped me to confirm that this is nothing unusual.

That's all I can remember off the top of my head, so if you guys want to hear more, I'll dig up my textbook when I get home.

Thanks, that actually makes a lot of sence, although i have never experienced that myself. Being in Japan as a senior high school does get you a lot of respect, but i wouldnt ever push it on people. Japans customs are a bit stange to me.:(

SaintessHeart

2008-10-27, 09:50

This episode is nice IMO. Basically it is all about typical school days with friends and such.

Sunohara said something quite true in this episode, "Friends you make in high school last for life."

Anime Daisuki

2008-10-27, 13:54

This episode is nice IMO. Basically it is all about typical school days with friends and such.

Sunohara said something quite true in this episode, "Friends you make in high school last for life."

Not necessarily, it's after high school where everyone really splits up. Different colleges, different career choices, etc. etc.

AquaticIdealist

2008-10-27, 14:34

Not necessarily, it's after high school where everyone really splits up. Different colleges, different career choices, etc. etc.

But I guess those who were idiots with you are the ones you're most likely to contact after you've split up... That might be what Sunohara meant.

Sinestra

2008-10-27, 15:27

So um did Sunohara and Tomoya win the fight with the Soccer douche bag team before they started beating the living hell out of each other? lol I blame this whole situation on lack of communication and too much lying and the Mei just being too over protective of her brother.. Well Sunohara got the truth eventually. They say the truth will set you free and it will set Sunohara permetly free if Nagisa's dad catches him after that Stint with Sane lol. I love Clannad and its nice to have it back and as much as i have liked the 4 episodes i cant help but to feel something is missing

germanturkey

2008-10-27, 17:34

yeah, this ep gave a good view of the friendship sunohora and tomoya have. its basically that that gets him through the latter parts of after story.

Joachim

2008-10-27, 18:28

Not necessarily, it's after high school where everyone really splits up. Different colleges, different career choices, etc. etc.

nah.. i have my long lasting friendship with this one crazily fun guy since high school, and guess what we keep having parties after parties even when we were separated during college, good times...

anyway, the sibling arc.. i'm actually more impressed with how the conclude it with the "friendship" portrayal between okazaki and sunohara, even in the game, how they met and how they became friend and even how sunohara's sister, mei acknowledge that sunohara has a great friend named okazaki. And even the fight between the two.. yea male friendship ftw

Anime Daisuki

2008-10-27, 19:23

nah.. i have my long lasting friendship with this one crazily fun guy since high school, and guess what we keep having parties after parties even when we were separated during college, good times...

anyway, the sibling arc.. i'm actually more impressed with how the conclude it with the "friendship" portrayal between okazaki and sunohara, even in the game, how they met and how they became friend and even how sunohara's sister, mei acknowledge that sunohara has a great friend named okazaki. And even the fight between the two.. yea male friendship ftw

Not NECESSARILY, there is obviously going to be some exceptions.

Superb voice acting by Tomoya and Sunohara's VAs during the fight.
Sunohara should be grateful Garkio doesn't have his bat lol.

dustclee

2008-10-27, 19:31

Second half was great, but first half felt kinda slow, so only a 9 from me.

Xellos

2008-10-27, 20:25

All I have to say is Sunohara was so awesome in that one moment, it made me hard.

nanafan

2008-10-27, 21:02

i liked the past few episodes i liked getting to know more about sunohara.. him sticking up for mei was awesome, the brother she missed.

kyouray

2008-10-27, 22:01

Good episode with a GAR Sunohara (voice acting was great). This episode's kind of nostalgic which reminds me high school and friendship which belong to the past for me. I hoped that Tomoya and Sunohara's frienship be more exploited.

Mecha_Trueno

2008-10-27, 22:09

tsk tsk tsk, only named characters matter in anime, who cares about those soccer boys :heh: that's like anime rule number <insert number here> :heh:no way man! i totally disagree with this rule, side characters ARE remembered...
counter example: city hunter:D
look at all those beautiful women man:love:... and yes they ARE grown women, no lolis, no high schoolers, all women:naughty:
... no wait, all these women had names, since they were the focus of the episode

I think thats why i like ryouma (prince of tennis) cuz he never wasnt going to ffetch balls 1 year long he just owned him to show them what he was worth.he still does freshman tasks like cleaning/tidying the court after club hours.

This episode is nice IMO. Basically it is all about typical school days with friends and such.

Sunohara said something quite true in this episode, "Friends you make in high school last for life."what i thought was more true is what he said after... "this is the only time in your life where you can do stupid stuff"

Joachim

2008-10-27, 23:00

Not NECESSARILY, there is obviously going to be some exceptions.

just pointing out the exceptions

velvet

2008-10-28, 00:13

As I recall, Tomoya wouldn't shut up about Nagisa's health the entire episode.

Tomoya never forced her into anything... she wanted to help out.

Okay, I just felt like bashing someone, but still...:heh: (if it was me, I would shut her up, and send her home)

They already had that scene partially with Mei's first farewell back in the first season. Though the Koumura lesson and reason and to why he let Sunohara And Tomoya meet was missed. Nothing too important though, personally I was satisfied with how they portrayed this arc.

And to me, that's the whole arc. Sadly. :upset:

Kaisos Erranon

2008-10-28, 00:21

There is a plot-related reason as to why they HAVE to do all the character arcs in some form, but it's also spoiler-related.

Also, Sunohara being badass = win. You can't deny that.

MercFH

2008-10-28, 01:55

Ep 4 was awesome. nice to see the friendship between suno and tomoya.

that was a pretty epic fight tho

Sorrow-K

2008-10-28, 05:27

I really didn't like that at all.

It was all so overwrought and melodramatic for starters. The final confrontation with lots of tears and punches and dirtied faces and pouring rain just made me cringe. I thought to myself, "is this Clannad I'm watching". Because such an overwrought explosion of emotions and built up tension and frustration, isn't that all more suited to My-HiME rather than Clannad. I notice Ascaloth referred to this as a trainwreck. Well, I agree, but not in the positive sense.

But the thing that really got to me was Mei's bizarre logic that somehow getting Sunohara back on the soccer team would turn him back into his old self. How did she miss the fact that it was basically his fight with the soccer team that caused him turn in the first place? And did she just completely refuse to listen to Yukine, who basically gave her reason after reason not to try to get her brother involved in the soccer club? "If he could, would Sunohara be able to enjoy playing soccer in an environment like that", says Yukine, followed soon after by "Even if it's not soccer, given the chance, he'll be the brother you used to love again". Mei's conclusion after hearing all of this: "After hearing Miyazawa-san's story, I feel like I have to keep trying harder". What!? Are you kidding me? I thought Mei was smarter than this. The whole thing was basically a plot device to chase after drama, but the only effect it had for me was to begin second-guessing Mei's common sense.

Ceral made an interesting point about the soccer club being victims in all of this. I mean, why impose on them and then turn on them violently when they refuse a request, within reason. The bullying (the ball-boy scene) was pretty transparent as a way to turn the audience against them, and they missed the opportunity to say something of interest about the practice of hazing (other than "it's bad", well duh) because the issue went to the background so quickly. But I thought they cheaped out the audience by not showing us the gory detail of the soccer club getting their asses kicked. I mean, after portraying them as repulsive assholes in order to get us to hate them, at least allow us the pleasure of watching them get their faces rearranged. That was a real tease.

I simply didn't like the fact that the entire fight scene between Tomoya and Sunohara was a culmination of melodramatic contrivances. Between Sunohara ignoring his sister because of his fake girlfriend (let's not forget who put the idea of a fake girlfriend into Sunohara's head to begin with) and Tomoya manipulating Sunohara into thinking that he was going out with Mei (for reasons that still elude me), neither of them really showed their most likable side during this arc. If either of them had been honest or forthright prior to this, it wouldn't have escalated (more like descended) into a melodramatic fight scene. We basically had this three episode build up to a dramatic confrontation that wouldn't have happened if these characters had just talked to each other in a civil way.

This is about the lowest point of Clannad I've seen.

SaintessHeart

2008-10-28, 06:08

Basically this episode just showcases the friendship between Sunohara and Tomoya. It could have been longer and into detail to make it better, but they have to cut short everything and put in only the "important" points, just to fit into the 30 min timeframe for anime.

Otherwise, just by looking at the big picture, it is nice enough for me. I left my brain in the cupboard with the mothballs because it doesn't require much thinking to watch things like this, just plenty of heart and soul to feel the nostalgia.

konstargirl

2008-10-28, 06:18

when Youhei dashed in?

I think this episode had everything I could've hoped for -- Mei being rescued in oh so dramatic fashion, and especially the much hinted at Sunohara-Tomoya fight. I can see why people have liked this arc so much.

I agree with you. This episode is FTW!!! I'm happy that they are friends again and not biter rivals. :D

matteas

2008-10-28, 06:36

This episode was great. It had those "feelings" I was waiting for.
The scene when Mei was teased by that bastard was pissing me off, because I could not stand watching Tomoya do nothing. And the fight between Tomoya and Sunohara almost made me cry.

tzia_n

2008-10-28, 07:21

This is about the lowest point of Clannad I've seen.

well all series will definitely have their lowest point. but i don't think the episode seems to be intolerable. just take what you can enjoy from it, you'll be happier that way ;)

edit: finally got to watch the ep, my only complain is that they're idiots for thinking their idea might work :heh: but then again it was never implied that they're smart :heh:

and it just had to rain after the fight :heh:

MeoTwister5

2008-10-28, 10:27

Well I finally saw episode 4 and so my thoughts:

One of the reasons I liked this story in the game, and therefore in the anime, is because I myself have been in the middle of somewhat similar sibling spat between my friend and his younger brother. I understood in a way just how much a younger sibling sometimes looks up a lot to an older one, even if it looks like they really hate each other.

So when I played the route in the game, yes it was melodramatic, but in a way expected because I think most people assume that melodrama is only a plot contrivance existing only in fiction. If my life experiences have taught me anything, real life can easily become melodramatic, and such find it realstic that things could turn out as such quite easily. Granted of course melodrama will make your stomach churn in the end, but few times I found to forgive this contrivance.

Why? Because the route and episode showed me what I saw in the game: that despite outlandish events, even what some would consider the most ridiculous, shallow, callous and selfish people still have a that bit of goodness in them that shows when it really needs to. Sunohara isn't exactly in possession of a heart of gold, and he really is a dumbass of sorts, but is it not sometimes only a freak and ludicrous events that reminds you just what good you have inside?

I had enough suspension of disbelief left over to accept the situation as it was, yes I questioned Mei's rationale and thinking doing something rather ridiculous, but in the end she's more or less at the end of her rope there. She a preteen for god's sake, don't expect her to have the mindset of an adult and the practical thinking of one.

But if anything at all, it showed that even the most imperfect of people are still human. They still care about the people close to them even if they don't really show it. They may act like assholes most of them time and show off an uncaring attitude but, if they really do care about you, they'll be there when you really need them.

Which is exactly what Youhei did.

9/10 for me, one of my favorite routes in the game got a very faithful rendition here.:D

Edit - And I'm pretty sure the final scene of Tomoya's reminiscing of meeting Youhei was a direct copy-paste from one of the screens in the game.

xavier12336

2008-10-28, 10:52

This episode was good especially the scene when Sunohara and Tomoya fight with those sadistic and sick soccer club members because of Mei. And in the end, Sunohara and Tomoya just laugh and become best friend again which is a good ending to the episode. Can't wait for next episode

C.A.

2008-10-28, 11:59

This episode reminds me of the fights I had in my primary and secondary school years. There are times when the only language the opposition understands is pain.

I gave the episode a 9, would have been 10, but somehow the girls are keeping that 1 back.

Kaisos Erranon

2008-10-28, 12:34

I simply didn't like the fact that the entire fight scene between Tomoya and Sunohara was a culmination of melodramatic contrivances. Between Sunohara ignoring his sister because of his fake girlfriend (let's not forget who put the idea of a fake girlfriend into Sunohara's head to begin with) and Tomoya manipulating Sunohara into thinking that he was going out with Mei (for reasons that still elude me), neither of them really showed their most likable side during this arc. If either of them had been honest or forthright prior to this, it wouldn't have escalated (more like descended) into a melodramatic fight scene. We basically had this three episode build up to a dramatic confrontation that wouldn't have happened if these characters had just talked to each other in a civil way.

And this is exactly the point of this arc.

Aizu

2008-10-28, 13:47

Amazing episode and route's final, really nothing to add here. This last image with Sunohara's face was directly from the game. Perfect 10.

phishn37

2008-10-28, 13:51

Like, how dumb is Sunohara? OF COURSE a high schooler isn't going out with a grade school kid. The whole situation could have been a good joke or something, but trying to stretch it into a whole arc makes it wear a bit thin.
But I'm exited about the next arc, which includes a character I'd like to know more about!!

Yukinokesshou

2008-10-28, 14:39

Like, how dumb is Sunohara? OF COURSE a high schooler isn't going out with a grade school kid.

Mei isn't in primary school, she's in middle school - 中学 in Japanese, 初中 in Chinese. Hence, she's probably around 13-15... and in Japan, a 14 or 15-year-old dating an 18-year old might raise eyebrows but wouldn't be entirely unthinkable.

Kaisos Erranon

2008-10-28, 16:21

Mei isn't in primary school, she's in middle school - 中学 in Japanese, 初中 in Chinese. Hence, she's probably around 13-15... and in Japan, a 14 or 15-year-old dating an 18-year old might raise eyebrows but wouldn't be entirely unthinkable.

Mei is 13, Tomoya's 17.

Sorrow-K

2008-10-28, 18:06

And this is exactly the point of this arc.
And it took them three episodes to reach this point... which, had these characters bothered to think things through, wouldn't have reached at all.

Look, it doesn't terribly surprise me that Tomoya and Sunohara would break out into a fight because their relationship has always been a tenuous one. There's no question Tomoya antagonizes Sunohara and there are some things Sunohara does that I think really annoy Tomoya. But the fight wasn't just a culmination of stupid decisions made by both Sunohara and Tomoya, it required Mei to make really poor decisions on top of that, and I'd have expected better from her. The entire arc was a case of watching stupid people making really bad decisions with obvious consequences. That's not Clannad, that's a different, lesser show. It's the first time I've seen Clannad take a "let's make drama and who cares how we get there" approach to storytelling, and it's no wonder I was disappointed.

Kaisos Erranon

2008-10-28, 23:13

At least it's aware of this.

And, again, this is direct from the game. They changed very little, which is the mark of a good animation studio.

If there's a problem, it's with the source material, and personally, I found no problem with it whatsoever.

...I always love how viewers will complain that the actions of the characters "weren't logical" and that they made "stupid decisions".

People are never logical and do stupid things all the time in real life. Do you expect realistic characters to do any different?

We're just aware that their decisions are stupid because of dramatic irony. This makes them look dumber by comparison. Not their fault.

Wolfen

2008-10-29, 10:46

That was a great episode, loved every minute of it. :)

High point;

"Did we win?"
"I don't know. But I don't think we lost..." :heh:

Hope some of the goons from the soccer club are looking a lot worse that either Tomoya or Sunohara.

Wolfen.

destiny4everlove

2008-10-29, 10:46

Episode 4

-The guys from the soccer club are complete jerks!!!! :mad: But I liked how on the first visit to the soccer club, as soon as they started to pick on Nagisa, Tomoya was ready to defend her. That was so cute!!! http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/tina_0205/monkey%20emoticon/khi00.gif I also liked how he refrained himself from fighting for Mei-chan’s sake. :)

-Mei with her milk moustache looked so cute!!! :)

-So that’s why Sunohara left the soccer team. I feel so bad for Sunohara, for defending and standing for what he believed on he had to leave the soccer team and with that his dream of becoming a soccer player. :upset:

-I have no doubt now; Yukine would be the pefert girl for Sunohara. :) I would love to see a Yukine x Sunohara pairing during this season!!!http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/tina_0205/monkey%20emoticon/khi9b.gif

-I loved Tomoya being protective of Nagisahttp://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/tina_0205/monkey%20emoticon/khi9b.gif, but what I loved the most is how Nagisa stood her ground and decided to go with Tomoya and Mei to visit the soccer club for a second time even when Tomoya told her not to go.http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/tina_0205/monkey%20emoticon/khi01.gif I like how Nagisa is always so determined when it comes to help other people. :)

-Tomoya bowing in front of the captain of the soccer team was so amazing!!!http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/tina_0205/monkey%20emoticon/khi22.gif Tomoya really cares for Mei-chan and Sunohara, doesn’t he? :) I like Tomoya so much!!!http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/tina_0205/monkey%20emoticon/khi01.gif He is so awesome!! :cool: Nagisa sure has had a very positive effect on Tomoya and that is one of the reasons why I love Tomoya x Nagisa so much!!!!!http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/tina_0205/monkey%20emoticon/khi9b.gif

-When Mei was hit with the ball I was mentally screaming “Nooooooooo!!http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/tina_0205/monkey%20emoticon/khi31.gif You jerks!! :mad: How you dare doing something like that to Mei!!!http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/tina_0205/monkey%20emoticon/khi9n.gif” Sunohara sure is lucky to have such an amazing little sister.

-Mei crying because of what the guys of the soccer team said about Sunohara was so heartbreaking.http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/tina_0205/monkey%20emoticon/khi04.gif

-Sunohara defending Mei was so amazingly great and touching!! I loved it!!http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/tina_0205/monkey%20emoticon/khi01.gif

-Sunohara and Tomoya fighting together against the soccer team was great, but the fight between them was even better!!!! It was better because it helped strengthen the friendship between Tomoya and Sunohara. It also showed that even though Tomoya sees himself as a delinquent, Sunohara sees him for the amazing guy he truly is and that’s why he didn’t worry about her little sister hooking up with a guy like Tomoya. One thing that kind of surprised me is the fact that Sunohara totally believed that Tomoya and Mei were a pairing, he truly believed that Tomoya had broken up with Nagisa to be with Mei. I don’t know whether this shows just how much Sunohara trust Tomoya (on what Tomoya says and does) or if Sunohara is really naïve when in comes to relationships and love. http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/tina_0205/monkey%20emoticon/khi34-1.gif

-Sunohara calling Akio “father” and asking him to give Sanae to him was priceless!!! :D

-Sunohara finding that Sanae is in reality Nagisa’s mom and Akio’s wife was hilarious :heh:, especially the part when Akio was running after him. I was mentally saying “Run Sunohara, run!!!! That if Akio gets you, you’re good as dead”. :heh: Tomoya how far are you willing to for a good laugh? ;) :D

-One of my favorite things about Clannad is definitely Tomoya and Sunohara’s friendship. :)

I really enjoyed this episode, it was great!! 8) I’m sad for Sunohara since he got his little heart broken by finding out the truth about Sanae. :upset: I truly hope Sunohara finds a girl that likes him and really cares from him during this season, preferably I would like to see a Yukine x Sunohara pairing. :)

Sorrow-K

2008-10-29, 19:43

At least it's aware of this.

And, again, this is direct from the game. They changed very little, which is the mark of a good animation studio.

If there's a problem, it's with the source material, and personally, I found no problem with it whatsoever.Good for you. I did. Your inability to find flaws in the source materials story is independent of the fact that I had major problems with what I saw in this episode. And I don't think loyalty is the mark of a good animation studio. The ability to make good anime is the mark of a good animation studio. But my criticisms are against the story that appeared in this arc of the anime. That the same story appeared in the source material is incidental to this discussion.

...I always love how viewers will complain that the actions of the characters "weren't logical" and that they made "stupid decisions".

People are never logical and do stupid things all the time in real life. Do you expect realistic characters to do any different?

We're just aware that their decisions are stupid because of dramatic irony. This makes them look dumber by comparison. Not their fault.
People are never logical? It's not even worth my time to argue against such a ridiculous and extreme blanket statement.

If you want to make argument that people often aren't logical IRL, fair enough. But the onus is on the writers to make lapses of rationality believable, generally by establishing the characters' motivations. I can swallow Tomoya's manipulative behaviour (the important example of which was lying about being Mei's boyfriend to Sunohara), even if it is a bitter pill to swallow and is easily the most cruel act I can remember from Tomoya. I can swallow Sunohara acting like a jerk to both Mei and Tomoya, even though again it is a very bitter pill to swallow and again is Sunohara at basically his worst. What I couldn't swallow was Mei's twisted logic about getting Sunohara on the soccer team, particularly on top of Yukine's reasons not to do so. But the only way the drama could work in this arc was for all three characters to behave very close to their worst. That's not what I consider well written drama. It's contrived melodrama.

I blame the writers for the events of this arc, not the characters. Someone on these forums (I can't remember who) made the analogy that characters are like marionettes controlled by writers, and the art of good writing was to make the strings that control the characters seem invisible. Up until now, the strings that control Clannad's characters have been invisible, but in this arc the intention of the writers' was blatantly transparent. The fact that this intention was cheap drama just compounded my distaste for this arc.

zzeroparticle

2008-10-29, 23:46

Good for you. I did. Your inability to find flaws in the source materials story is independent of the fact that I had major problems with what I saw in this episode. And I don't think loyalty is the mark of a good animation studio. The ability to make good anime is the mark of a good animation studio. But my criticisms are against the story that appeared in this arc of the anime. That the same story appeared in the source material is incidental to this discussion.

Wasn't that the excuse used to handwave the absurdity of Fuko showing up after her arc was over in the first season?

In any event, the end was rather lackluster without producing too much in the emotional department because the path it took to get to this point was not believable. Now that Sunohara is pretty much done with and out of the way, I'm hoping we can get back to good old Key melodrama that comes through based on the story and the characters who don't require forced storytelling to get the plot moving.

Proto

2008-10-30, 00:01

@Sorrow-K: I cannot rebute (and I won't even attempt to do so, since I agree with you) that the result in this arc was the product of the characters making many decisions that could be considered as the worst possible decisions in the scenario they were in, that much I can agree.

What I cannot agree, is your presentation of the scenario as absolutely non believable, and just a contrived and forced way to create artificial drama, and that as such this situation could not be expected from real characters as could have been expected given CLANNAD past record.

From my own experience, my sister is in some aspects unbelievably mature for her age (then again women emotionally mature much earlier than men, so maybe I shouldn't be so surprised). However, from that very same reason many times they get too conceited about their maturity in many areas, and disregard the fact that that maturity is just something in process. As such she sometimes makes incorrect decisions that just bother those around her, with her thinking that she is making the best possible decision and disregarding her siblings advice as just useless immature men comments. It is often just through tripping and hurting herself that she learns that she still has much to learn.

Making the analogy, Mei is indeed quite mature for her age. However, that same maturity made her very conceited during this arc about her being right, about only her understanding her brother's true self and her desperation about his brother not being able to show it. As a brother myself I can very well understand that suffering. However, Mei definitely took the right end and tried to solve it through the wrong means. She grew conceited that because she knew that in the past her brother had achieved success through soccer, he would be able to repeat the feat should she push the world to that point. She grew deaf to external advicement, thinking that external people didn't know the whole situation, wrongly rationalizing that in the past her so called maturity had given her greater insight of things. And guess what. It didn't worked. It ended in Mei making a fool of herself, making her understand that there were things about her brother and his world that, oh surprise, she didn't knew.

Now, based on my own experience, I cannot agree with you that such an scenario is so unnatural that it cannot possibly happen. I've seen myself the effects of people being spoiled because of their advanced, yet incomplete maturity first-hand, and as such the scenario presented during this route was, while a little forced, I'll give you that, completely believable.

Of course, i could be wrong, and if so I would greatly appreciate if you could point out any flaw in my reasoning. After all I'm no longer young enough to know everything :)

MeoTwister5

2008-10-30, 00:21

I'm with Proto on this one.

If I also didn't have experiences that made me believe that absurdly melodramatic events could happen in real life, and that some people can really act out of character and completely out of logic, I'd have passed this off as some silly sequence of ludicrous events to culminate in a forced melodramati finish.

But I didn't, because I've seen similar things happen before, even to people who I had thought had a very level head on their shoulders. To me it just goes to show that no matter how mature and wise you think you are, people who feel cornered will often do the most ridiculous and absurd things to get out of it.

I mean really, who in their right minds would be a ball girl to a bunch of fucktards? But she felt cornered, felt that if she didn't do this little act of desperation then she'd lose forever the brother who had always protected her. If there would be anything more powerful than self-preservation, then it would be the desire to protect the ones we hold dear the most. No matter how mature Mei would think of herself, she clearly did not choose the better choice, and thus the result is as we see fit.

We can't expect everyone to be cool and levelheaded when faced with a dilemma such as this, no matter how contrived it may look like. The characters obviously chose the worst way to deal with the situation, but does eveyone always get it right?

The way one will ultimately accept the plausibility of these events fall completely on your own life experiences. If you've lived your life always seeing people act completely logical with controlled emotion in dealing with whatever situation, then it is obvious you'd think these events and ridiculous and contrived. If you're like me however, who have seen both ends of the spectrum and have seen the best and worst of people dealing with their situations, then I'd just consider this another day in the life of myself and others.

Sorrow-K

2008-10-30, 00:38

It wasn't contrived in the sense that what happened was an impossibility. It was contrived in the sense that the entire point of the arc was the melodramatic culmination of Tomoya and Sunohara's fight at the end of it all. A well written arc should feel like the eventual events at the end of it are a natural (I won't go quite so far as to say "inevitable") consequence of whatever motivates the characters.

As I said earlier, the climax of this arc relied on three characters making really bad decisions, two of which I would have thought were more wily than this. I can accept one or two characters making bad decisions and thus getting others into trouble because of it, that's fair enough, but the coincidence of this many otherwise not-stupid characters making bad decisions within such a short space of time of each other was too much to swallow. And, like I said earlier, if just one of these characters had been a little more open or had thought things through a little more carefully, the melodramatic fight scene at the end of all of this wouldn't have happened.

You can't say that about the other arcs. Had Tomoya done something stupid during Fuko's arc, she still probably would have appeared at her sisters wedding because she was so determined to make it happen, just maybe less people might have turned up or some other consequence like that which wouldn't have made the wedding so magical. Had Akio not turned up for Nagisa's play, she still would have taken to the stage, she just wouldn't have been able to complete her play. But it didn't surprise anyone that Akio turned up and encouraged her, and that act made both Akio and Nagisa all the more respectable. It surprised no one that Tomoya supported Fuko and her preparations for her sister's wedding, and it made both characters all the more respectable. It surprised me that Mei could have such poor judgement in this arc when she has otherwise been portrayed as rather wily, and her actions in this arc didn't make her more respectable in my eyes.

I expect better from these characters because that's what we've generally gotten to this point, and I expect better from the drama in this show because this is the first time that it's been so cheap. There's a reason why I tend to hold Clannad in much higher regard than Myself; Yourself, but this arc really wouldn't have been out of place in Myself; Yourself.

Proto

2008-10-30, 01:01

Now, as I said in my early posts, I agree with you that the storytelling with this arc was relatively more forced that in previous ones. That much I agree with you, but I can't agree with the fault level you are trying to attribute it.

//
It has often said that character development is not always for the better. Giving further depth to a character give us a greater perspective into his motivations and inner thoughts, and often it means that the character is often less that what we had considered it to be. That was Mei's case in this arc. Heck, she's 13 years old for God sake.

Now, regarding the point of melodramatics...

Free online dictionary defines it as

Exaggeratedly emotional or sentimental; histrionic
2. Characterized by false pathos and sentiment.

(I'm not implying that you don't know what it is, I just want to start my reasoning from a common point of understanding. If we can both agree with this definition I will continue)

I think I have mostly covered my rebutal of the second point in my previous post, however I'll further explain my reasoning a little.

A difficult, emotionally constraining situation can make many characters involved in it to lower their critical thinking and get progressively more emotional, with creates a further spiral of misunderstanding, mistrust and misplaced emotions. In any case, that was what happened with Tomoya and Mei in one side and Sunohara in the other. It was because of this spiral that they lost sight of all what was logic and natural for us, the 3rd person viewer, and which become unattainable by the characters themselves. Lies lead to lies, misunderstanding leads to more of the same, that is a rule of daily life.

This whole misunderstanding lead to a catharsis for the characters. A catharsis was necessary for the characters to get rid of those misunderstandings and to be able to reach each other again. As such, assuming that the result must be the reunion and forgiving of the involved characters, a catharsis of the magnitude of the rift between the characters was necessary. It is not that the arc lead to the final fight, but that the arc lead to the reconciling of the three parties involved and to the furthering of Tomoya and Sunohara's bond. The fight was certainly the climax and the bridge that filled that gap, but it was rather a means equiparable to the magnitude of the problem than an end. As such, from this reasoning I think that we can conclude that in history every element was suited for the magnitude of the situation (even if the situation was sometimes artificially inflated, as we agreed before), and when compared to the reality of us viewers it can be considered as realistics , given that such a situation is not strange at all to those who have lived in similar situations.

Now, regarding the first point

Exaggeratedly emotional or sentimental; histrionic

After some thinking. this one is a little more difficult, given that exaggerated is a subjective word correlative to one's own notion of what is normally emotional, and the threshold one would be willing to accept before considering something exaggerated. Being this subjective, neither yours of my opinion on the matter can be considered better than the other, and if you decide to call the whole affair melodramatic based on this definition it is up to you and we can only agree to disagree on this point. Based on my own experience, even when I consider myself a fairly cold headed person, I've lived surrounded by highly, highly emotional people, and people who are normally level headed by that can lose sight of what is important if slightly stimulated in the wrong places, so such a situation isn't alien to me at all, and as such under the parameters dictated by my own experiences such a situation are within my limits of what is normal.

Sorrow-K

2008-10-30, 02:36

Now, as I said in my early posts, I agree with you that the storytelling with this arc was relatively more forced that in previous ones. That much I agree with you, but I can't agree with the fault level you are trying to attribute it.

//
It has often said that character development is not always for the better. Giving further depth to a character give us a greater perspective into his motivations and inner thoughts, and often it means that the character is often less that what we had considered it to be. That was Mei's case in this arc. Heck, she's 13 years old for God sake.I think this is where the sticking point is. Prior to this arc Mei had been portrayed as a lot smarter than that. That her judgement could become so inexplicably poor at the most convenient of times (from a dramatic perspective) just didn't sit well with me at all.

And, look, I have no problem with character development leading to characters becoming more unlikable. One of my favourite films involves a main character that becomes more and more decrepit as he gets older. Anime sometimes tries too hard to make characters sympathetic at a sacrifice of complexity. But it doesn't work here because, as has usually been the case with this show so far, the ending was a celebration of the triumph of these characters over their dilemmas. The thing is, these dilemmas were a consequence of the characters inexplicably acting at their worst. They devolved into cruel (Tomoya), selfish (Sunohara), foolish (Mei) people, only to realize they were wrong (duh) and turned back into exactly the way they were before this arc started. That's the problem I have. I'm not convinced that there was any genuine long term character or relationship development to come out of this arc that wasn't there before this all started. Tomoya and Sunohara will still have the same chummy, but slightly tense give-and-take friendship they had before and we may see a slightly closer Youhei and Mei sibling relationship... dependent on how much screentime she gets from now on. Ironically, while it was Mei who was pining so much for Youhei's attention during this arc, which was apparently her motivation for her ill-bred logical failure, Mei had frequently snubbed Youhei over the course of the first season, which was often done as a gag. And it wouldn't surprise me if it was done again in the future. It'd kinda renders the relationship development in this arc as rather a case of "two steps backwards, two steps forward." We're still back where we started. Only it's taken three episodes for them to go on this roundabout course.

After some thinking. this one is a little more difficult, given that exaggerated is a subjective word correlative to one's own notion of what is normally emotional, and the threshold one would be willing to accept before considering something exaggerated. Being this subjective, neither yours of my opinion on the matter can be considered better than the other, and if you decide to call the whole affair melodramatic based on this definition it is up to you and we can only agree to disagree on this point. Based on my own experience, even when I consider myself a fairly cold headed person, I've lived surrounded by highly, highly emotional people, and people who are normally level headed by that can lose sight of what is important if slightly stimulated in the wrong places, so such a situation isn't alien to me at all, and as such under the parameters dictated by my own experiences such a situation are within my limits of what is normal.

I think we're just debating about extent now, and we've largely reconciled on the objective stuff, such as my point that the drama in this arc was derived by the characters behaving at close to their most irrational. If you're happy with that, that's fine. I've just never been big on drama involving foolish people making foolish decisions and then having to deal with the inevitable consequences. In my opinion, that's what constitutes cheap drama.

NoOneKnowS

2008-10-30, 08:54

So w/ the way things are going. How(or rather where) do you thinks this series is going to end? /wedding?

Or will they animated it all? (that would require like another season lol.

MeoTwister5

2008-10-30, 09:03

So w/ the way things are going. How(or rather where) do you thinks this series is going to end? /wedding?

Or will they animated it all? (that would require like another season lol.

Do you want a serious answer with that, based on the game? It's somewhat spoilerific, so I won't really answer your question unless you really want the answer.

Kaisos Erranon

2008-10-30, 15:56

I love when internet discussions become massive walls of text with little real point.

Why don't we all just sit back and enjoy the show? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MST3KMantra)

So w/ the way things are going. How(or rather where) do you thinks this series is going to end? /wedding?

Or will they animated it all? (that would require like another season lol.

You really don't want to know. Trust us, it'd spoil the suprise.

Wolfen

2008-10-31, 03:00

I think I can just about allow Mei's attack of dumb because of how upset she had become about the distance that had grown up between her brother and herself. When she had the idea to get him to play soccer again as a way of getting him to return to his 'old self' she seems to have become obsessed with it to the point of not being able to think rationally about it. (this seems to almost be a trope of it's own. "if only my brother/friend/parent/etc could live his dream again, then everything would be all right!", cue tunnel-vision stupidity. Nagisa making herself ill in order to try to get Tomoya to play basketball again also springs to mind.)

Tomoya being extraordinarily cruel? Maybe, but I think he's always had this side to him. He plays tricks on people, especially Sunohara, that are often quite cruel basically. He's responsible for several of Sunohara's combo-beatings due to his tricks in the past and he always seems to get more amusement out of them than anything else. :)

I still found it an enjoyable episode after a second viewing. Could it have been handled better in the time they gave it? Maybe, though from what people are saying it is pretty faithful to the source material so maybe that was a big enough concern for them to get the shoehorn out for this arc.

Wolfen.

SeedFreedom

2008-11-04, 11:48

Well, a few bits on this ep and the arc in general. Firstly, Sunohara can be a pretty annoying character when hes not comic relief. He became more of a jackass than i imagined. Secondly, Seems stupid for Tomoya to put himself through all this trouble when he could have stopped everything by telling him sanae was nagisa's mom. That would have snapped him out of his stupid trance and maybe he would have seen how much trouble he caused without the need to fight and piss everyone off. Thirdly, i cant believe Tomoya would go thorugh so far as to let them kick a ball to hurt mei and still continue going. At this point I would have just said screw sunohara and dragged her away. Nice message of friendship and all, but the unrealistic jackassness of almost everyone involved kinda ruined it.

PS, how did sunohara completely miss Nagisa who was there the whole time?