Toradora! - Character Discussion - Aisaka Taiga

[NightWish]

The purpose of this thread is to provide a place to discuss all things Aisaka Taiga related.

http://forums.animesuki.com/picture.php?albumid=1036&pictureid=11483

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[stormy001_M1A2]

Specifically, the dissocial personality disorder is described by the World Health Organization by the following criteria:

1. Callous unconcern for the feelings of others and lack of the capacity for empathy.
2. Gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, rules, and obligations.
3. Incapacity to maintain enduring relationships.
4. Very low tolerance to frustration and a low threshold for discharge of aggression, including violence.
5. Incapacity to experience guilt and to profit from experience, particularly punishment.
6. Marked proneness to blame others or to offer plausible rationalizations for the behavior bringing the subject into conflict.
7. Persistent irritability.

The criteria specifically rule out Conduct disorders. Dissocial personality disorder criteria differ from those for antisocial and sociopathic personality disorders.

(Wikipedia: WHO)

Okay, she is not really anti social, she is dissocial. She did not fit all the description, but she does exhibits strong tendencies in few key areas.

[Deadwings]

That makes her look like a weirdo :heh:
Now we have a proper place to discuss whether she is "loli" or "petite", and whether she is a proper tsundere or just a bithcy aggresive girl. :p

[Cat Megex]

Another possibility is that she has a slight case of Emotionally unstable personality disorder.

F60.3 Emotionally unstable personality disorder

F60.30 Impulsive type

1. The general criteria for personality disorder (F60) must be met. [see below]
2. At least three of the following must be present, one of which must be (2):
-------1. marked tendency to act unexpectedly and without consideration of the consequences; Trying to give someone a concussion to make them forget a love letter they found? I think that fits here.
-------2. marked tendency to quarrelsome behaviour and to conflicts with others, especially when impulsive acts are thwarted or criticized; She doesn't seem to actively confront others and be quarrelsome, but I don't think she makes any attempt to avoid such confrontations, and she definitely reacts violently to perceived confrontations even if in reality they aren't (i.e. Ryuuji bumping into Taiga accidentally and getting a fist to the face. Though that may actually have been from him calling her Palmtop Tiger...).
-------3. liability to outbursts of anger or violence, with inability to control the resulting behavioural explosions; Shown multiple times in the first episode...hell, shown multiple times in all four episodes so far.
-------4. difficulty in maintaining any course of action that offers no immediate reward;
-------5. unstable and capricious mood. A couple examples: when fighting over Ryuuji's bag in ep 1, at the breakfast restaurant in ep 3, at the end of the roof scene in episode 4.

She fits four of the five listed items, and as only three are required, I think this fits her quite well.

[Falkor]

eh…

I’m having serious troubles to like, understand, or even sympathize with this anime version of Taiga. It’s somehow strange because manga Taiga and novel Taiga are probably my favorite versions of this dreadful archetype. While the anime is actually making a good depiction of Taiga’s behavior/personality, I simply can’t find, or even remember, anything of what I loved about her counterparts in the source material—either I missed something in the novel/manga, or her character has been lost in translation.

For starters, Rie Kugimiya… she has one of those voices that can shatter glass without too much effort, especially when it comes to her tsundere roles. This time around, well, is all the same with the tsundere, but slightly different to convey the little details that can make a “huge” distinction with her closest cousins. Add it to her “violence-upgrade” and it becomes even more difficult to like this "new" version of Taiga.

But, but… my greatest complaint lies exactly on the very fact I still don’t know anything about her—her background, motives, and the likes. Her characterization has not been very effective in this sense, in order to illustrate her issues and situations in more detail. And instead, the character has remained static when it was supposed to change (or let's just say improve) as result of the second episode, the moment Ryuuji vows to stay with Taiga. (was this really what it attempted to convey? not really sure of this either)...

[frubam]

I disagree with 3 and 5, perhaps due to my "lack of" understanding of the definitions(that is to say that my perception of the actual def given might be incorrect).

3.Wouldn't the "inability to control resulting behavioural explosions" mean that you could not control the fact that you are acting with violence once you start that outburst, like a kid who didn't get what he wanted and falls into a temper tandrum? I think that, other than the love letter attack, all of her attempts of physical violence were conducted with the reasoning that she did not agree to what Ryuuji was doing, whether it was warranted or not.

5. I wouldn't consider her mood "unstable" or "impulsive" since it is within her natural personality to do those things. To me, "unstable" would constitute having radical fluctuations in mentality, acting nice to an individual one moment, then, for no or little reasoning completely change to someone different. Taiga's normal personality only seems to change when refering to Kitamura, which is the guy she likes. Because she doesn't change her mentality in normal situations, I wouldn't say she's unstable. I wouldn't consider embarassment, nor physical violence unstable unless it is used outside the parameters of her character, which it doesn't seem to be.

[SaintessHeart]

It would just be easier to say that her size, and looks just fits her personality, childish. Though her tantrums are of epic proportions.

A tiger is a cat after all. When it is left alone, it is cute (just like how Taiga is curled up on her bed like an adorable little kitten...). But you provoke it, you will never tie your shoelaces again.

[sgwc]

One word! Ice-queen-chibi-tsundere.

[Vexx]

She definitely has a lot of trouble processing her internal feelings and translates many of them into almost panicky violence.

[Darknemo2000]

But those problems are much better showed in the novels and in the manga than in anime.

That and the fact that she isnt really tsundere yet, but more of a bitchy girl to some (like Ryuuji, who deserves to be treated better) or nice to others like Kitamura or Minori. In anime it is still unclear why someone would like Kitamura, as the only reason so far seems that he has 'harem-lead' implant installed and is explained as being nice... Otherwise girls would probably run away as far as they can from such stalker goof.

[yezhanquan]

Since this IS a character discussion thread, can someone put in descriptions from the novels and manga? With spoiler tags, of course.

[Darknemo2000]

Falkor, as for what you ahve noted I have to agree...But the problem for that the most of those explanations where in the material that should have been in episode 1 and 2 yet anime breezed through them juts to make two fillers in a row (in a sense has no real importance to the plot) and because of that those explanations were lost. They may ahve decided to pull them out later, but due to that the tsrnegth of her character is lost in the scenes that are played now. In manga/novels you already know enough about her at this point so each scene has a more special ring to it...In anime, due to rushing in the beginning a part of it has been lost.

[Samatarou]

But, but… my greatest complaint lies exactly on the very fact I still don’t know anything about her—her background, motives, and the likes. Her characterization has not been very effective in this sense

I agree, although her character has developed and she's become less violent (thankfully!), and we even know a bit of backstory like she could have had Kitamura but rejected him, nevertheless we don't know why she's so violent or anything about her as a person. She remains my least favourite character of the series, I think this would change if something more were filled in. OK so we don't know much about any of the characters, but there are inklings about Ryuu and Minori, and nothing much we need to know about Kitamura. Taiga though is such an extreme person that we need to know more if we're to sympathise with her.

[yezhanquan]

Still, Taiga getting owned by a bicycle. Goes to show that any and every one has something which they suck in.

[Mega-Japan]

Taiga should die a very painful and bloody death, end of discussion....

*gets shot*

J/k, j/k... lol I honestly don't like her though. Her attitude sure pisses me off limits.

[Falkor]

Oh the character development… yeah, there was a lot of it missing as far as my knowledge of the source material concerns. But I didn’t want to mention it, even though I was aware of it, because I was trying to look at Taiga from an anime perspective, and seriously, it’s very frustrating.

Why making her so violent? In this regard, she is no different from her anime counterpart in ZnT. She wasn’t really this violent in the first two volumes of the novel (I’m not sure if past the second volume, things become more chaotic with respect to Taiga). The problem with making her so violent is that I don’t see anything that can offset it, or serve as a good motive/reason for doing so in the form of character development. One of my expectations for this adaptation was actually that, whether or not they would tone down Taiga’s selfish behavior a little bit, since even her verbal abuse was too much for some people, but they did the opposite. I’m trying to understand a reason why they would try to make Taiga more violent character-wise, and it serves no purpose within the story—other than upsetting me, and decreasing any kind of “love” I had for the character.

[Vexx]

I get the feeling that there's tension on the writing team. Someone with decision making power *wants* Taiga to be "like that girl in ZnT" (physically violent rather than verbally dangerous). But others on the writing staff (probably those who have actually read the novels, etc) are pushing back in certain ways since Taiga is much more complex than a typical loli-tsundere archetype. Hence we get odd back'n'forth behavior swings like we saw between ep 3 and ep 4.

[yezhanquan]

I get the feeling that there's tension on the writing team. Someone with decision making power *wants* Taiga to be "like that girl in ZnT" (physically violent rather than verbally dangerous). But others on the writing staff (probably those who have actually read the novels, etc) are pushing back in certain ways since Taiga is much more complex than a typical loli-tsundere archetype. Hence we get odd back'n'forth behavior swings like we saw between ep 3 and ep 4.

Can we say "Executive Meddling"?

[SaintessHeart]

Can we say "Executive Meddling"?

Or "Improvised Industrial Creativity", since her template is based pretty much on typical tsundere characters.

Anyway, a tsundere is a part of the story, an element. It is all how you cook it in the pot to make the story radically different. Clannad is a starkly reversed example of Toradora, a little more nostalgic feel to it, but otherwise, incorporate regular character types (just a larger number of tsunderes as supporting, and having Mei as the only loli, that is all).

[typhonsentra]

I get the feeling that there's tension on the writing team. Someone with decision making power *wants* Taiga to be "like that girl in ZnT" (physically violent rather than verbally dangerous). But others on the writing staff (probably those who have actually read the novels, etc) are pushing back in certain ways since Taiga is much more complex than a typical loli-tsundere archetype. Hence we get odd back'n'forth behavior swings like we saw between ep 3 and ep 4.

I'm hoping the Louise thing was just a choice by the director of that particular episode and we'll see less of that in future anime-original content.

[Vexx]

aye, I need to review the credits and see if episode 3 was a different director than eps 1, 2, or 4 (which seem to mesh better in many ways).

[Spring_sakura111]

Shana + Loiuse = Taiga

[Vexx]

Wellllllll, actually we hope that (Shana + Louise) < Taiga in the anime adaptation. The character as written in the source material is fairly complex from what I've read of the light novels so far -- not *just* a loli-tsuntsun (dere).

[rave_master16]

Yup I agree with you Vexx. She's showing a lot of her emotions. But digging to her background, you'll know why she's acting Tsun tsun. Unlike the first two loli-tsundere which Louise and Shana, her behavior is a little realistic.
I can say her being as Tsun tsun is "nurture" part while Louise in "nature". Don't know Shana's part.
So far, we can see a lot of her Tsundereness balanced which is better.

[Darknemo2000]

Well, Louise is actually more complex character than many believes her to be. As her character does follow her real life original Louise Francoise de La Baume Le Blanc de La Valliere (1644~1710) who was King's Louis mistress, yet because she had beauty defects she was considered not beautiful and due to that had a rather big complex about her beauty. And had kind of obsession about the king.

Louise follows this pattern and has the same massive complex of inferiority to others (thinks all girls are better than her, has no confidence and thinks the only way Saito can be interested in her only if she would force him to... Saito himself doesnt do much to her confidence (specially anime counterpart) though... Louise like her real life original has an obsession over Saito, and even tried to kill herself once learned that Saito was 'dead'. If Saito would really die there is no doubt that Louise would kill herself...

Thats were the mority of these tsuntsun moments come from. I would not call it her nature, rather an defect which can be treated - since once she started gaining confidence in herself and her looks she became much nicer to Saito... Though still kept part of her infamous temper...

Yet again, this all part of the novels... In anime it is different as those scenes were never included or explained in the anime, making Louise look like the most simplistic and plain tsundere ever...

Taiga, is not that deep in anime as well. Yes she has a solid background in novels but in anime they still have lots of things to do to make her deeper than your usual tsundere (specially because they do tend to skip those little details now and then)...

I dont conisder her behavour that realistic though...Just because she shows her dere side and is drolling doesn't make her realistic. At least I do not think that trying to stab friend's eyes is very realistic just because he looks at the one he loves... Given it is anime only episode and such scene was not part of the original but again so far from what we know from the 8 episodes that we do know at least something 3 look to be fillers... So the danger of 'JC Staff screw up' is still there.

[Spring_sakura111]

Lol. I was talking about Shana with a sword and Louise's hairstyle equals to Taiga. But yeah, she is a bit different from these two. But still, every time Aisaka says "Urusai Urusai", I get this Shana vibe from her.

[Vexx]

Same voice actress ..... no unnatural vibe necessary :)

@darknemo: The eyestabs are "Three Stooges" slapstick -- totally surreal and in episode 3 (an anime-only-mostly episode which makes me worry about all the other upcoming anime-only episodes).

[karasuma]

Man, another chibi loli role for Kugimiya Rie? She can just bring her Shana persona over... She even have to say "shut up" at the end of eps 1...:)

[Tiran86]

Taiga's an interesting character, but she's definitely not one I would want to hang out with, let alone date.

So far I like the way she's been adapted. Its not perfect, but its good enough and honestly, I prefer at least some changes in an adaption, otherwise why follow both? Besides, I mostly started this hoping it would get past the where I've read up to.

[Vexx]

Man, another chibi loli role for Kugimiya Rie? She can just bring her Shana persona over... She even have to say "shut up" at the end of eps 1...:)

No, actually that would be the wrong thing to do... Taiga has quite a few different motivators and inner moods. Taiga's character is a chance for Kugimiya to stretch her toolkit quite a bit.

[karasuma]

No, actually that would be the wrong thing to do... Taiga has quite a few different motivators and inner moods. Taiga's character is a chance for Kugimiya to stretch her toolkit quite a bit.

I dunno. That blushing act definitely look like Shanna, and the top of the lung yelling remind me of Kagura in Gintama...:P

I am never into loli and there are more and more of them..:)

Miharu in "Naburi no Ou" is a stretch for Rei. Her voice is too cutesy to play a young boy.

[Mushi]

Taiga's character is a chance for Kugimiya to stretch her toolkit quite a bit.
I agree. My first impression of Taiga was Shana + Louise, but I quickly began to feel that there was something more there. I already get the impression that Kugimiya is putting some extra heart and soul into this character. But then, the only other character of hers, of that type, that I'm familiar with is Nagi.

I don't quite understand all the intricacies of what really makes a girl tsundere, and what level of relationship is required for that to occur. I just look for the shifting behaviors of "indifferent and bitchy" to "sincere and vulnerable" as basic requirements... varying degrees of both taken into account, of course.

I was kind of surprised at getting a glimpse of her softer side as early as episode two. I thought the scene where she came back with the broken cookies, and admitted to being so clumsy, followed by her reaction to Ryuuji's encouragement, was a very tender one. She was actually demonstrating some humility there and I think it was an important moment for the two of them. There was some bonding going on there.

I'm only looking at her from the anime perspective, as I haven't read the novels. Personally, I think it's better that way. From what I've read, years and years go by with people expressing disappointment in manga/novel to anime adaptations. You'd think it would be understood that the anime format is rarely going to allow the depth that the written mediums will. And yet, I keep seeing the same lamentations of "The manga/novel gives them so much more development."

I'll just keep enjoying the anime and see what they manage to deliver without the preconceptions and prejudice the manga/novels seem to lead to.

I don't understand why some of you are referring to Taiga as "loli." Is it because of her petite size? To me loli has more to do with age than stature. They are in their second year of high school. That, in my mind, makes her a young woman. Shana I can see being called loli, because there's the implication that her age froze when she became a Flame Haze at somewhere around 12-14 years old.

[JediNight]

Loli used to mean pre-puberty characters for the most part. But seems like the last 5 years or so it's become more widespread to refer to anyone whose short and/or flat-chested. Or even just any girl under the age of 18, or looks younger.

Ex: Komoe-sensei from Majutsu no Index would be considered a "loli" even though she's presumably in her 20s.

[Mushi]

Hmmm... guess I haven't been paying enough attention then. That doesn't seem fitting, but whatever.

Komoe-sensei strikes me as "child-like" but not loli. I guess I've got the more literal description from the book "Lolita" too firmly fixed in my mind. That being ages 9-14 and carrying the overtones of precocious girls who could be seen as having forbidden desirable qualities.

I think I'll just be stubborn, mumble something about the absurdity of pouring new meaning into established words, and say that Taiga is not loli. :p

[SaintessHeart]

Taiga's an interesting character, but she's definitely not one I would want to hang out with, let alone date.


Good girls like her are hard to come by. Grab your chance if you can. xD

To me she is still loli because of her looks. Anyway her character is seriously adorable.

[Vexx]

yeah, I get into a "definition" fight everytime the word "loli" comes up because people have such vastly different definitions and sling them everywhere -- often just to label a show so they can make fun of it and safely hide in their "manly gar" boxes :)

The incessant need to pigeonhole characters and series seems endemic to "not having to think about it further" :)

[Cat Megex]

The incessant need to pidgeonhole characters and series seems endemic to "not having to think about it further" :)

...That's human nature, actually. By default, the human brain will group things into categories, even if those categories are not necessarily appropriate.

[Vexx]

Aye, but that is the lazy least energy way --- human brains are quite capable of more nuance with training. After all, I don't think any of the posters here still call all four-footed animals "doggie". :)

[Cat Megex]

Aye, but that is the lazy least energy way --- human brains are quite capable of more nuance with training. After all, I don't think any of the posters here still call all four-footed animals "doggie". :)

No. But could you ask them to differentiate between all different dog breeds, and name them? (And I'm not talking the simple examples, like differentiating between a Chihuahua and a St. Bernard.)

[Vexx]

That'd be nice but I'd be just as happy if they could tell a dog from a llama.

[SaintessHeart]

Well it is personal opinion wasn't it? I am sure some people would think that a Chihuahua is a rat, and stick by it.

Actually it is how perception works, though I acknowledge that Taiga is beyond loli in her age, she looks like one, plus she is so cute that I would prefer to refer to her as loli than petite.

[Flame Haze]

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=2048740&postcount=625

Taiga ranks no. 10 in Newtype poll. And ToraDora! has just started. =)

[Isekaijin]

Taiga ranks no. 10 in Newtype poll. And ToraDora! has just started. =)

So fast!
Well, I can't say I wasn't expecting it. Tsunderes have always been popular, regardless of the anime.

Personally I was a bit dissapointed with anime version Taiga. I expected her to be more...Yakuza-like. I mean, everyone is afraid of her for some reason right?

But her being in love with someone other than the male protagonist is a good thing for a change. It's not like Shana and Yuuji or Louise and Saito. Ryuuji is truly a dog for her, a good friend at most.

I haven't read the novels. Please don't tell me she falls for him later.

[Vexx]

There's all different kinds of "fall for" ..... one of the compelling parts is watching them figure out what kind it'll end up being.

[SaintessHeart]

It would be great to see them together though, they would truly make a cute couple.

[Shadow Kira01]

Top 10? That's pretty speedy popularity!

Taiga>Ami>Minorin

Personally I was a bit dissapointed with anime version Taiga. I expected her to be more...Yakuza-like. I mean, everyone is afraid of her for some reason right?

Aisaka Taiga is seen wielding a wooden sword in the opening, maybe she will be swinging it around later in the anime.

[Cat Megex]

Aisaka Taiga is seen wielding a wooden sword in the opening, maybe she will be swinging it around later in the anime.

If you've forgotten, she swung it around in the first episode. XD

[Bathory Area]

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=2048740&postcount=625

Taiga ranks no. 10 in Newtype poll. And ToraDora! has just started. =)

Wow,Sebastian is in NO.8.I never think Kuro Shitsuji is popular show.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Does anyone find that Taiga looks a fair bit like Chall Acoustica from the Gundam 00P sidestory manga?

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/7889/37302311dh7.jpg

[Darknemo2000]

To be truthful ToraDora! hasn't just started.

Toradora already had a solid fanbase before the anime started so it is not that surprising as it may look to you from the first look. After all Toradora novels are popular in Japan.

[FireSong]

I'm not a regular poster, but I've been following some of the discussions..

Personally, I like Taiga best of all the girls.. To me, she really epitomizes a lot of humanity - that failure to properly convey messages across at times, that very thick layer of indifference hiding a real gem of a character inside.

I like her confessions.. And after Ep8, I find myself rooting for Taiga+Ryuuji.

[stormy001_M1A2]

Every character emphasizes certain parts of humanity in general, not just Taiga.

[Semantics]

I love how Taiga's eyes are actually upturned moe-eyes - they're straight and thicker at the top and round at the bottom. It's not commonly seen in anime nowadays and I relish the effect they're having on Taiga's character and appearance.

And I'm so glad Taiga's able to step out of the shadows of Louise and Shana in terms of voice acting. Kugimiya Rie does a great job here, giving her a grittier, lower and more rebellious quality to her usual (awesome) tsundere portrayals. It really nuances up her character quite a bit.

[Deathscyther]

Seems like she's starting to understand why she's she close to Ryuuji and why she trusts him so much.

During the couch scene, you could see that she was questioning her relationships with Ryuuji and Kitamaru and it seems like she's starting to realise that she might have feelings for the dragon boy(no nervousness while being close to each other, the 'foot rubbing/massage', having second thoughts about the dream).

[Spring_sakura111]

Yeah. But I would REALLY REALLY hope for that Taiga X Ryuuji wouldn't end up together. I like how they are right now. Even though she has feelings for Ryuuji , she has to consider his feelings for Minori.

[Deathscyther]

To be honest....they're acting like a married couple already, so I don't think much would change between them:heh:

[houkoholic]

Even though she has feelings for Ryuuji , she has to consider his feelings for Minori.

It goes the other way too - Love is a two-way street, it's no use that Ryuuji feels for Minori but that Minori currently has no intentions of returning those feelings.

You know, just like how Taiga has feelings for Kitamura while Kitamura no longer feels romantically towards Taiga.

[Spring_sakura111]

It goes the other way too - Love is a two-way street, it's no use that Ryuuji feels for Minori but that Minori currently has no intentions of returning those feelings.

You know, just like how Taiga has feelings for Kitamura while Kitamura no longer feels romantically towards Taiga.

Well, you never know. Kitamura liked Taiga before and confessed to her. It's possible that he still has feelings for Taiga.

[Darknemo2000]

Spring_sakura111, we all know whom he has feelings most right now, and she most definitely is not Taiga...

[Spring_sakura111]

Spring_sakura111, we all know whom he has feelings most right now, and she most definitely is not Taiga...

Awww...don't tell me. You know because of the Novel, right? Don't spoil please. ♥

[Darknemo2000]

Actually you don't need to read novels to see the implications in the anime.

[Toffeerollx]

Umm I'm gona take a guess, to me it seems obvious its this person.

I have a feeling it's Minori...

[Darknemo2000]

Toffeerollx, I had in mind someone else, more like

the student president.

[TwinRivers]

I was actually thinking it was: Ami, the childhood friend thing is typical but plausible.

[Vexx]

.... wow, ya'll need to review the previous episodes and see who Kitamura has got his eyes on and whom he mutters compliments about.

... student president Sumire ... very obviously

[Toffeerollx]

.... wow, ya'll need to review the previous episodes and see who Kitamura has got his eyes on and whom he mutters compliments about.

... student president Sumire ... very obviously

Hmm, yes actually when yu remember and think about it its quite obvious :eyespin:

[justinstrife]

I agree, although her character has developed and she's become less violent (thankfully!), and we even know a bit of backstory like she could have had Kitamura but rejected him, nevertheless we don't know why she's so violent or anything about her as a person. She remains my least favourite character of the series, I think this would change if something more were filled in. OK so we don't know much about any of the characters, but there are inklings about Ryuu and Minori, and nothing much we need to know about Kitamura. Taiga though is such an extreme person that we need to know more if we're to sympathise with her.

After 4 episodes I had to stop watching the show because of her. I'm back in here seeing if it's gotten any better. I HATE characters like this with a passion. Can't sympathize at all, and it completely takes away my enjoyment for a show.

[Vexx]

Hmm, yes actually when yu remember and think about it its quite obvious :eyespin:

Now what is ODD is that Kitamura spends so much time with Minorin and they have so much fun together... you'd *think* some bell would go off in their head at some point. Sumire (so far in the anime) seems totally unaware of Kitamura's passion for her.

[Kaisos Erranon]

After 4 episodes I had to stop watching the show because of her. I'm back in here seeing if it's gotten any better. I HATE characters like this with a passion. Can't sympathize at all, and it completely takes away my enjoyment for a show.

At least Taiga has a sort of Freudian Excuse for her behavior. Her parents suck.

Hell, I hate this character type too. Really hope she improves.

[wistfulloner]

Taiga didn't have a choice i guess.

Shes so fierce everyone is scared of her and she only has a few friends, shes an emotional wreck when it comes it love and a clumsy idiot.

You may say she brought this on herself, but then again, its not like she really wanted to, right?

[Vexx]

Its why being quick to judge someone harshly can backfire on you....

[Nukerjsr]

Now one thing I wonder about with Taiga is if she's thought about being Ryuuji's girlfriend. I'm wondering if this is coming later down the line or if this is a steady build-up. I'm wondering what exactly she thinks.

With tsunderes, there's usually two excuses. There's the: "He's a pervert/juvenile/dog/moron/slob" who I should not fall in love with or the "I'm so in love with Character A (Kitamura), that I can't possibly love him." Now with Taiga, I'm leaning more towards the latter but considering how dysfunctional she is, I'm wondering if there is something else or if she's just really confused.

[Vexx]

Taiga isn't being typical tsundere in the anime.... instead of a huge epiphany, she's having all these little moments starting with the smile at the end of episode 2. The Villa adventure seems to have been a significant turning point in her realization. Really listen to the discussion during the footrub scene and the tonal nuances. Also note the rather plaintive and worried way she runs to catch up with Ryuuji at the end of the adventure.

She still has her crush on Kitamura... but oh those nagging doubts and dreams.

Problem is now, Ryuuji's been rolling like a steamroller -- and those conversations with Minorin and Ami at the villa have made him thoughtful and moved him a bit closer to Minorin and Ami -- which means little tugs on the thread between him and Taiga that he's not noticed. She has.

[wistfulloner]

In summary:

Taiga has feelings for Ryuuji, but feels helpless in the face of Minori and Ami. Not wanting to complicate his life, she has resorted to quietly revealing herself to Ryuuji, while at the same timesorting out her own life.

Lesson learnt:

Don't be to quick to judge people; they might be the most important person you may encounter. :heh:

[Vexx]

I don't know that your summary of her is quite as *conscious* as you describe.... but subconsciously yeah.

[FateAnomaly]

Taiga is a brat through and through. Her father provided a big apartment for her to live in and money to spend but she considered herself abandoned. She takes her father money and kicks him in the groin... She thinks nobody understands her but i doubt she even bother to think about others.

[wistfulloner]

Perhaps you should watch episode 11 and 12 if you have that kind of opinion of her.

[houkoholic]

Taiga is a brat through and through. Her father provided a big apartment for her to live in and money to spend but she considered herself abandoned. She takes her father money and kicks him in the groin... She thinks nobody understands her but i doubt she even bother to think about others.

Taiga's father provides for her out of personal guilt as he choosed his new wife over her.

Material satisfaction does not compensate for real loving parent.

[Nukerjsr]

Taiga's father provides for her out of personal guilt as he choosed his new wife over her.

Material satisfaction does not compensate for real loving parent.

The problem with Taiga in that situation that makes it hard to take her side, is that she won't give a reason to why she hates him. She doesn't explain why she hates him so much and what happened. She attacks her problems with a sledgehammer and just hopes they go away. Blunt and feels like there is no need to reflect on it again.

It's like Taiga is saying to Ryuuji: "No matter what you think, you are not allowed to like or hang out with this man at all. End of Discussion or I hit you."

[Kaisos Erranon]

Real people act like this too.

Taiga doesn't want to tell Ryuuji why she hates her father because she's too broken up about it herself.

[houkoholic]

It also shows a misunderstanding and a lack of trust from both Ryuji (and in a sense the viewer's part) too.

Reflecting back, has Taiga shown this level of hostility to anyone without rational justification? The answer is an undebateble "no" - sure she is selfish etc, but she has never been this openly hostile to anyone for no good reasons, at all (acting little violent to Ryuji is not the same as the hostility she has towards her father FWIW, and we all know that Ami provokes Taiga first).

Some people would want a certain level of trust from their closest friends in that they don't have to justify to their friends every single actions in every turn, to some people that's what friendship/kindship means, unrequist trust, trust that is build upon a long period of interaction to have the faith to believe the other has a good reason to do what one does without having to spell out the reason. This is what Taiga (and Minorin as well) was expecting from Ryuji, and Ryuji has betrayed Taiga's expectation in him.

[typhonsentra]

The first episode she broke into Ryuuji's home and tried to beat him with a stick. He tried to explain what happened to her but she wasn't listening and ruined his furniture. So yes, she has acted badly without rational justification.

[Kaisos Erranon]

That was funny though. And Ryuuji had taken her love letter, after all.

[roan]

Taiga's father provides for her out of personal guilt as he choosed his new wife over her.

Material satisfaction does not compensate for real loving parent.

I didn't get the impression of any sincere personal guilt from reading the end of volume 5. If there was any real guilt, you wouldn't get the line

『親子の縁はなにがあっても切れないけど、男女の縁は切れてしまう。だから、切れないようにメンテナンスし ないといけないのは男女の縁の方』

It's more like legal obligation + seeing Taiga as a pet instead of a daughter + he's just used to throwing money around frivously like that.

[Kaisos Erranon]

So therefore he's simply a complete bastard.

Best dad ever.

[typhonsentra]

For those of you who have read farther into the novels:

Is there any indication of Taiga actually being attracted to Ryuuji? I just can't imagine them ever developing a physical relationship.

[Neki Ecko]

For those of you who have read farther into the novels:

Is there any indication of Taiga actually being attracted to Ryuuji? I just can't imagine them ever developing a physical relationship.

You probably need to look into the Novel Section, for that answer. Besides their relationship for right now is more like soulmates then any romantic relationship. But things does change.

[roan]

For those of you who have read farther into the novels:

Is there any indication of Taiga actually being attracted to Ryuuji? I just can't imagine them ever developing a physical relationship.


typhon, you missed a pretty major scene at the end of volume 4. The anime didn't go into much detail about it, but it was pretty big in the novels.

It's the same deal with the end of volume 5.

[Nukerjsr]

That was funny though. And Ryuuji had taken her love letter, after all.

Yes, but you wouldn't want that to happen to you. It's like, it would be funny to fall down the stairs but if it were you falling down then it's a different story.

Ryuuji I believe isn't at that emotional level with Taiga in the story where he can accept her actions no matter what the situation. They've only known each other for about six months and Taiga hasn't told him anything on a personal level. Taiga is just expecting a little too much from Ryuuji since he basically picks up after her. Minori may be different, but they aren't any close at all and she just have really high expectations for a relationship she doesn't even really know about.

[Kaisos Erranon]

For those of you who have read farther into the novels:

Is there any indication of Taiga actually being attracted to Ryuuji? I just can't imagine them ever developing a physical relationship.

Volume 7.

typhon, you missed a pretty major scene at the end of volume 4. The anime didn't go into much detail about it, but it was pretty big in the novels.

It's the same deal with the end of volume 5.

And this is really why people should finish translating each volume before going on to the next one.

Yes, but you wouldn't want that to happen to you. It's like, it would be funny to fall down the stairs but if it were you falling down then it's a different story.

And that's why people shouldn't identify too much with what's happening on the screen. It ruins their enjoyment of the show.

[typhonsentra]

You probably need to look into the Novel Section, for that answer. Besides their relationship for right now is more like soulmates then any romantic relationship. But things does change.

Well it seems like they're going down that path so I was asking since it seems pretty important if they're going to start dating in the series.



And could anyone please tell me some specifics? I don't really care about being spoiled anymore as I already know the general trajectory of the rest of the story anyway.

And about volume 5....
I haven't read it yet but it really hints at her being attracted to him? Because what's been shown in the anime so far seems to hint that she's still deeply obsessed with Kitamura, and the story ends with her and him dancing at the bonfire correct?

[FateAnomaly]

I am fine with her treating her father like that if she didn't also took his money. If she want to ignore a person, then do it properly. And she is hostile to other people. The first time Taiga and Ryuuji knock into each other, she punched him. She messed the whole classroom and expect others to clean up after her.

[houkoholic]

IThe first time Taiga and Ryuuji knock into each other, she punched him. She messed the whole classroom and expect others to clean up after her.

Both times she had reasons:
* Ryuji knocked into her, and instead of apologising he blurted out her nickname.
* She made a mess because the class was spreading false rumors about her and Ryuji, she didn't actually hit anyone then either.

She still hasn't attacked anyone without some sort of reason or provoking from the other party.

[BetoJR]

Both times she had reasons:
* Ryuji knocked into her, and instead of apologising he blurted out her nickname.
* She made a mess because the class was spreading false rumors about her and Ryuji, she didn't actually hit anyone then either.
She still hasn't attacked anyone without some sort of reason or provoking from the other party.
And those are very sensible, mature reasons for lashing out at people, right? :D

[roan]

Both times she had reasons:
* Ryuji knocked into her, and instead of apologising he blurted out her nickname.
* She made a mess because the class was spreading false rumors about her and Ryuji, she didn't actually hit anyone then either.

She still hasn't attacked anyone without some sort of reason or provoking from the other party.

Also the second one, it was made clear in the novels and should have been clear to anybody but the blind in the second episode, but that outburst was done for Ryuuji's sake, not hers.

She's immature but not random.

[houkoholic]

And those are very sensible, mature reasons for lashing out at people, right? :D

No, and I didn't claim that for a second.

But she does have *reasons* to be hostile, everytime. She's not lashing out for the sake of lashing out, which is my original point.

There's still the point that it takes a lot to make her hold such a big grunge and being extremely hostile for extended periods of time and not forgive. She lashed out at the class, but you don't see her constantly abusing her classmates just because of them spreading some rumors and calling her names do you? You don't see Taiga going berserk when the entire class bets again her to lose in the swimming race. So if you actually try to piece it together, you can deduce that Taiga's father must have done something REALLY BAD to piss her off to that level, which incidentally, Ryuji and some viewers tends to miss.

[Voitan]

Reflecting back, has Taiga shown this level of hostility to anyone without rational justification? The answer is an undebateble "no" - sure she is selfish etc, but she has never been this openly hostile to anyone for no good reasons

Wouldn't good reasons imply a level of maturity though? Reasons yes, good? Not always.

[houkoholic]

Wouldn't good reasons imply a level of maturity though?

No, not at all.

"Getting even" in a lot of cases is based on good reasons, but they are not necessary mature reasons.
Eg. the guy punched me, so I punched him back is a good reason for why I acted out that way, but certainly not a mature reason, and in fact is actually quite childish.

[Tiran86]

So if you actually try to piece it together, you can deduce that Taiga's father must have done something REALLY BAD to piss her off to that level, which incidentally, Ryuji and some viewers tends to miss.

I caught that, and its been bugging the hell out of me since they didn't reveal it this episode and the novels haven't even finished volume 4 yet.

The anime's in volume 5 now right?

[FateAnomaly]

No, and I didn't claim that for a second.

But she does have *reasons* to be hostile, everytime. She's not lashing out for the sake of lashing out, which is my original point.

There's still the point that it takes a lot to make her hold such a big grunge and being extremely hostile for extended periods of time and not forgive. She lashed out at the class, but you don't see her constantly abusing her classmates just because of them spreading some rumors and calling her names do you? You don't see Taiga going berserk when the entire class bets again her to lose in the swimming race. So if you actually try to piece it together, you can deduce that Taiga's father must have done something REALLY BAD to piss her off to that level, which incidentally, Ryuji and some viewers tends to miss.

I didn't say she lash out for no reason. Only the crazy would lash out for no reason. However, her reasons are extremely minor and the reaction excessive. I wouldn't be surprise if the reason why she hate her father is minor either. Anybody knowing her will not call her nickname in front of her and thats why she don't "abused them everyday".

[Nukerjsr]

When I was thinking back through the past couple of episodes, it made me think...do you think there's a reason why Yasuko regards Taiga so highly?

From the beginning she always saw her as innocent and just a girl and had fun no matter what happened. Even in later episodes she really treats Taiga like a member of the family despite the two not having really any interaction. (Aside from the boob poking) So can anyone think of a particular reason?

[typhonsentra]

Yasuko's just naturally friendly. The first scene they shared together in book one they already appeared close to me. Look at the way she treated Ami the first time they spoke together.

[wistfulloner]

That's true. Even if she knows Taiga is smashing up her son every now and then, she isn't doing anything about it, because she knows that happens sometimes between "siblings". :D

[Tiran86]

just because they don't show much interaction between Ya-chan and Taiga doesn't mean there isn't any. Taiga goes over to Ryuuji's house every day. Its just not as important to the story as developing anyone else's relationships.

[Deathscyther]

That's true. Even if she knows Taiga is smashing up her son every now and then, she isn't doing anything about it, because she knows that happens sometimes between "siblings". :D

I don't think Yasuko sees them as siblings:p

But yeah, she's just naturally friendly and has formed a bond with Taiga over time as well :)

[Darknemo2000]

Yeah, it is pretty obvious at least in the novels that 'siblings' is not the word that come to Yasuko's head when watching Ryuuji and Taiga.

[wistfulloner]

Haha, siblings to her as in, "part-of-a-family-but-same-age" kind of thing, as a metaphor. It's hard to imagine Yasuko being unfriendly to anybody, for that matter.

[gummi]

I like her.. ok I know that was short but just wanted to see if any had an avatar like this which I'm sure they will since it was so easy to make. :/

[LeaD36]

she treats them quite close, but more like cousins, male cousins at that, as to how taiga treats him most of the time

[Nukerjsr]

I just felt like she treated Taiga REALLY close after knowing her for such a long time. Usually seeing a friend as a member of the family takes a really long bond and lots of trust, so it felt a bit awkward for me. But like you guys said, she is really friendly.

Perhaps she trusts Taiga a lot because she can view her like a teenager, because Ryuuji had to mature really quickly and become self-sufficient. Taiga is immature in several ways, so maybe Yasuko finds comfort in that.

[Kaisos Erranon]

People are using the term "moe" wrong again.

What exactly does Taiga have that are "moe" features? Yes, she's short and flat chested. What else?

And I was pretty clearly referring to anime Louise, yes.

[Vexx]

"moe" is hard to pin down but it has more to do with the feelings it generates in the viewer than in the specific attributes of the target. If you feel compelled to protect, nurture, and take care of the target --- good chance that "moe" is being experienced.

Therefore, it won't be the same for every person.

[Kaisos Erranon]

"moe" is hard to pin down but it has more to do with the feelings it generates in the viewer than in the specific attributes of the target. If you feel compelled to protect, nurture, and take care of the target --- good chance that "moe" is being experienced.

Therefore, it won't be the same for every person.

Thank you.

Therefore, "moe features" is a misnomer.

[BetoJR]

And, at least to me, Taiga would be anything BUT "moe".

[Darknemo2000]

Vexx, you are right and wrong at the same time. While being attracted to one moe characteristic or another is completely individual, moe features as such are generic. At least there are some features that are considered to be moe in general - Tusndere is one of being moe features thats for sure, just like meganekko and so on. And i am referring that Taiga looks stuffed with such moe features - she is a tsundere, she is a loli, she is clumsy, she is helpless (or at least looks like helpless and relient on which is an important attraction characteristic in sexist community that Japan is).

Definitely, Taiga is a moe character, one of the most moe stuffed character I have seen in years.

[Kaisos Erranon]

I would never have considered Taiga as overloaded with moe features. Ever.

If her clumsiness mattered at all, sure. If her helplessness was the entire point of her character, sure. (Is that even considered moe at all?)

Being flat-chested really isn't a moe feature either. It's the normal personality that goes along with it.

There are much much worse characters than Taiga for moe overloadedness. Much worse.

And, at least to me, Taiga would be anything BUT "moe".

Also this.

[Darknemo2000]

Well, it is up to you to take the moe feature or not as a moe, but in general those are the features attributed to moe.

Loli, because it is close to chibi. Not always loli is moe but chibi - almost always and because of such closeness a lot of lolis become moe's.

[Kaisos Erranon]

Loli, because it is close to chibi. Not always loli is moe but chibi - almost always and because of such closeness a lot of lolis become moe's.

Okay. I have no idea what you just said.

[typhonsentra]

She's petite, clumsy, and can't cook....

[Kaisos Erranon]

She's petite, clumsy, and can't cook....

But does NOT have the personality associated with those character traits at all. Nor is this played up as the entire point her personality. It's not supposed to be endearing to the viewer at all.

[BetoJR]

I, for one, didn't really know people associated the tsundere archetype with the whole moe thing... you learn something new everyday. I, for one, wouldn't really say that I'd like to cuddle and over-protect someone like Taiga. :D

[Kaisos Erranon]

Tsundere is a moe archetype, yes. It's not the MUST PROTECT or BURNING PASSION moe, but more the THAT'S HOT moe.

[BetoJR]

God, all this labeling is kinda confusing, to me.
I'll just say I, for one, wouldn't consider Taiga moe, as in, I don't really feel the need to protect her or anything. Most tsunderes I've seen in anime would fall into that consideration, as well.

I guess that's why labeling is not something I'm all that comfortable with...

[Vexx]

Vexx, you are right and wrong at the same time. While being attracted to one moe characteristic or another is completely individual, moe features as such are generic. At least there are some features that are considered to be moe in general - Tusndere is one of being moe features thats for sure, just like meganekko and so on. And i am referring that Taiga looks stuffed with such moe features - she is a tsundere, she is a loli, she is clumsy, she is helpless (or at least looks like helpless and relient on which is an important attraction characteristic in sexist community that Japan is).

Definitely, Taiga is a moe character, one of the most moe stuffed character I have seen in years.

Sorry but I'm not exactly a n00b when it comes to Japanese culture ... "moe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moe_%28slang%29)" *is* exactly as I said. And I happen to consider Taiga "moe". I don't consider Ami "moe" though she's quite charming and pretty.

An essential quality of moe is that the person feels protective towards the character – too protective to sexualize the character As a counter-example, Mikuru of SHnY is generally acknowledged to have "moe" despite being very un-flatchested. Moe is a feeling - not a specific collection of attributes.

edit: reread the posts... it sounds a bit like we're variously a bit confused on what the other intended by their posts.... bleh, more coffee needed.

[yezhanquan]

Anyway, a little interested in Taiga running for council president. It will be big (I think).

[wistfulloner]

It will probably be the largest thing that has happened since the school opened. But unfortunately, it will likely end as fast as it appeared.

[SageGaiGar]

Sorry but I'm not exactly a n00b when it comes to Japanese culture ... "moe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moe_%28slang%29)" *is* exactly as I said. And I happen to consider Taiga "moe". I don't consider Ami "moe" though she's quite charming and pretty.
As a counter-example, Mikuru of SHnY is generally acknowledged to have "moe" despite being very un-flatchested. Moe is a feeling - not a specific collection of attributes.

edit: reread the posts... it sounds a bit like we're variously a bit confused on what the other intended by their posts.... bleh, more coffee needed.

Moe/Sexualization tends to occur with commercialization. Both aren't necessary the same. Agreed the classic example should be the feelings of protectiveness.

One obstacle I see with RyujixTaiga is that sense of protectiveness of him towards her. Maybe I've just got the line from Genshiken stuck in my head about love and moe being two different things.

Any other thoughts on the latest episode with taiga's behavior? It's certainly different.

[wistfulloner]

She creeps me out with her sudden lack of bite. The Christmas spirit must really be getting into her head. :D

[Ryu-kun]

lol Taiga still is like a child :P so Kawaii believing in Santa Claus

Episode 17 is a start for a turning point for Taiga don't you think? The OP kinda hinted it.

[wistfulloner]

It's more of a turning point for everyone, not just for Taiga.

But still, she's one of the main focuses for change, along with Minori.

[Ryu-kun]

It's more of a turning point for everyone, not just for Taiga.

But still, she's one of the main focuses for change, along with Minori.

My bad thought the character threads meant only the character itself not on everyone else x.x

[Vexx]

You can *refer* to other characters, just try to keep the focus on how it affects Taiga since this is her thread. So you're basically fine. The series does have several characters approaching a major crossroad in how their lives will play out -- Taiga being one of them.

[shinryou]

Moe/Sexualization tends to occur with commercialization. Both aren't necessary the same. Agreed the classic example should be the feelings of protectiveness.

One obstacle I see with RyujixTaiga is that sense of protectiveness of him towards her. Maybe I've just got the line from Genshiken stuck in my head about love and moe being two different things.

Any other thoughts on the latest episode with taiga's behavior? It's certainly different.

Then again, moe can be either as these terms seem to change from their original. The term Tsundere has changed in definition so as a result many labels as such seem to fit multiple meanings

[Fran~]

Moe is not even related to sexualization, it's just a contemplative emotion, like a beautiful sunshine or such. Tsundere is just a "love-hate" relationship...

It's quite simple.

[Vexx]

Tsundere (evolved version): crunchy hard crust with a creamy nougat center...

[shinryou]

Tsundere (evolved version): crunchy hard crust with a creamy nougat center...

ha, that's a nice description :p

[SageGaiGar]

Heh, a fitting description indeed.

[moshimouse]

She creeps me out with her sudden lack of bite. The Christmas spirit must really be getting into her head. :D

same here, though it was a nice change of pace to see another side to her. I hate it when animes only give a character one way to be for the whole series. It defiantly humanized her a bit and made her less a cartoon character and someone you could possibly relate too.

i think thats why i love this anime so much, you know whats going to happen but the characters are so round that they really make the anime, you cant help and fall in love with them. Especially Taiga, i love her!

[Vexx]

That's why I carry a special rubber squeaky mallet around to smack the heads of those who dismiss the characters as "just like cardboard archetype from another series". Very few people in real life are stuck in one narrow behavior mode -- the author (and to some extent the anime adapters) have done a very good job of presenting people that seem more like real life.

[k'2]

That's right real people aren't always predectible or they aren't at all. but they don't stray away from thier true nature