Toradora! - Episode 8 Discussion / Poll [Archive]

Pellissier

2008-11-18, 14:48

Welcome to the discussion thread for Toradora!, Episode 8.

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typhonsentra

2008-11-18, 16:19

Wait, it airs today? I thought this was a Thursday (In Japan) show.

Pellissier

2008-11-18, 16:31

It airs wednesday at 17:20 (european time) - thursday 1:20 in Japan - as always.
I just opened the thread a bit earlier than usual. If this works, I'll open them at the same time on the next weeks, otherwise, I'll delay.

typhonsentra

2008-11-18, 18:13

Oh cool, thank you.

BTW, the part of Volume 3 that corresponds to tomorrow's episode has been completed and is on B-T for those curious.

frubam

2008-11-18, 19:53

Ack, I should have looked in the thread before running off to search for the episode =_=

Reaper-flora

2008-11-19, 07:39

Ack, I should have looked in the thread before running off to search for the episode =_=

lol i did the same thing :P few hours till i can watch :D

Peanutbutter

2008-11-19, 07:42

From the preview, Taiga learns how to swim? :heh:

stormy001_M1A2

2008-11-19, 07:51

I am looking forward to what Ami will be doing. She is reason why I watching this series.

margafred

2008-11-19, 11:50

Less Ami,Minorin and Kitamura..

But in trade..great development between Taiga and Ryuji in today's episode.

Next episode - Badminton match between Taiga and Ryuji..also seaside camp on Ami's villa.

Rate - 9/10

Utau

2008-11-19, 11:52

i lost track of time, what the heck!

ep.8
- only seen half of the episode, darn.. why was Taiga mad at Ryuuji?
- lol at Taiga taking Ami's top off, that was WIN :naughty:
- liking this anime even more, it's probably because Taiga is not who she used to when it comes to Ryuuji cpmpared to before. She cared for Ryuuji when he drowned and actually cried. Really, good episode with Taiga and Ryuuji development.

http://e.imagehost.org/0231/01_4.jpg

http://e.imagehost.org/0438/02.jpg

http://e.imagehost.org/0343/03.jpg

margafred

2008-11-19, 11:56

- only seen half of the episode, darn.. why was Taiga mad at Ryuuji?

Coz Ryuji don't understand the real reason of why Taiga hardworkingly did all that training.Ryuji thought Taiga did it for her pride,or becoz of Ami being her opponent,when actually she did it all for Ryuji,or something like that...

Well at least that's what i conclude from the conversation though.Correct me if i'm wrong.

Utau

2008-11-19, 12:00

Coz Ryuji don't understand the real reason of why Taiga hardworkingly did all that training.Ryuji thought Taiga did it for her pride,when actually she did it all for Ryuji,or something like that...

Well at least that's what i conclude from the conversation though.Correct me if i'm wrong.

i see, so that's why. thanks.

I did hear Taiga mentioning something like that at their stop by (in starbucks? :heh: ) while planning their trip. Ami whispered that it's a shame that they didn't get the chance to be together or something like that.

Kinny Riddle

2008-11-19, 13:47

Shiroth

2008-11-19, 15:56

You really do have to respect the type of friendship the two have, especially after this episode. I'd go as far as to say the two do love each other, just not in the relationship way.

typhonsentra

2008-11-19, 16:10

I certainly hope they don't skip the sumo match with the giant dog. Ever since I read that part I've wanted to see it animated.

Deathscyther

2008-11-19, 16:58

Good episode =)

Although they skipped quite a lot, it was still a good watch. The most important scenes were animated and it's good to see some taiga x ryuuji development. They've downplayed the angst factor though.

gave it a 8/10:)

stormy001_M1A2

2008-11-19, 21:42

Consistent writing wins. The series maintain nice flow so far.

And the omission of the wooden sword makes sense, no one carries it to the pool. Just my 2 cents.

Peanutbutter

2008-11-19, 22:46

Wow, pretty deep episode. I don't know what to think of right now, but at the moment, I think Ryuuji's mum summed it up the best when she was clinging onto Ryuuji's leg.

I think I need to watch this episode a few times to consolidate my thoughts. ;)

Vexx

2008-11-20, 00:19

I'm a sucker for Random Curiosity screen caps.... this time they've got me seriously anticipating this episode (as well as looking forward to reading the rest of the novels later).

ThoHell

2008-11-20, 02:09

Was a random interesting episode, I liked it. Oh, POOR AMI!

Darknemo2000

2008-11-20, 02:33

frubam

2008-11-20, 04:26

For me the whole screaming comes bit random, considering that she didn't care about Ryuuji all that much in episode 6 and episode 7 (not jealous or angry, no angst etc.). I still like it since we finally have some TaigaxRyuuji development even if it looks bit random and off. I give it a 7.

I wouldn't say not jealous. The looks she was giving Ami was, imo, hate for being next to Ryuuji. This seemed evident in ep 6 as well, when Ami clung to Ryuuji early in the ep.

I gave it a 10, which i gave it an extra point for turning the generic "girl-A fights girl-B in some random contest for guy" plot into something memorable with excellent char development btw Ryuuji and Taiga. I honestly would have never suspected that she would honestly admit her feelings, let alone in front of everyone. I will admit though, it was quite random as hell, wayyyyyy out of left field >.>. Right now, she has the perfect balance in her angry and cute sides(least toward Ryuuji), it's incredibly enjoyable to watch her like that :).

Ryuuji's gotten awfully defensive when it comes to Taiga. Their relationship def gives off the vibe of lovers(esp when ep 6 ED/ep 7 beg is brought up).

The music that was playing when they started the swim race sounded like something out of Haruhi.

Only one Minorin antic :(. On first glance, I thought she put a line under her eyes, like a football player, and not making eyes on her eyelids :heh:. Does that work in real life? I am curious.

Kaioshin Sama

2008-11-20, 04:41

I think I'm about ready to give this show the nickname "Swimsuit Expose Extreme". Really need to catch up on this one. :D

Haru~

2008-11-20, 05:15

Well to think they read my complaints in the last episode, they finally made a progress of Ryuuji X Taiga relationship. I can say it's perfect but the late development made it lose two points. Gave it an "8".

kamikazex

2008-11-20, 05:37

anyone else getting sick of taigas attitude towards ryuuji? cuz im finding her to be more annoying every episode.

passin'gass

2008-11-20, 05:58

wow, a bit more emotional honesty from Taiga, she can now (somewhat) express what she feels without exploding. however, the author of this development, Ryuuji, is rather dense and not very honest himself leading to further turmoil. Ami isn't sure what she feels either.

It appears that only the the kingpin Kitamura is 100% aware of and amused by the developments swirling around him.

Darknemo2000

2008-11-20, 06:30

I wouldn't say not jealous. The looks she was giving Ami was, imo, hate for being next to Ryuuji. This seemed evident in ep 6 as well, when Ami clung to Ryuuji early in the ep.

I gave it a 10, which i gave it an extra point for turning the generic "girl-A fights girl-B in some random contest for guy" plot into something memorable with excellent char development btw Ryuuji and Taiga. I honestly would have never suspected that she would honestly admit her feelings, let alone in front of everyone. I will admit though, it was quite random as hell, wayyyyyy out of left field >.>. Right now, she has the perfect balance in her angry and cute sides(least toward Ryuuji), it's incredibly enjoyable to watch her like that :).

I would call that look annoying rather than jealous. You know, like annoying are two cooing pigeons early in the morning, disturbing your peace.

The whole deal looked like shrugged off very easily (which looked even more weird since they made the dramatic episode pause, but the whole situation ended in a few minutes without any impact).

In novels it was a big deal and we could see a lot of Taiga being jealous and caring for Ryuuji bit more than just a pet. It also had angst in it.

So the whole screaming scene at swimming pool though still looked off didn't look THAT random as it does in anime simply because you already know she have those strong feelings for him from the conflict with Ami.

In anime since the conflict with Ami was nothing big and shrugged off easily without any impact (which at that moment only strengthened the feeling that taiga do not care about Ryuuji that way) but now we get a random, specially in anime, confession coming totally out of the blue.

So they either had to play the whole Ami deal bit stronger to express Taiga's feelings better or if they follow the whole shrugging off Ami's deal and Taiga not being jealous, then soften this whole scene without making her yell out such strong words out of sudden.

For me it seems like the lack in directors work, as if he changes one scene in original anime way, but when the second scene still closely connected to the first comes, instead of changing it accordingly he suddenly chooses it following the novels closely, thus creating a disconnection.

Well it is not something big really, plus since it is JC Staff, you have to lower your standards a little, still I would wish bit more consistent directing.

Shiroth

2008-11-20, 07:03

On first glance, I thought she put a line under her eyes, like a football player, and not making eyes on her eyelids :heh:. Does that work in real life? I am curious.
Unless they add every last detail, then i don't think so. :p

I really liked Minorin's "i'll leave it to you" scene, along with Yasuko's scene. She's one awesome Mother.

Master Chibi

2008-11-20, 07:52

Well it is not something big really, plus since it is JC Staff, you have to lower your standards a little, still I would wish bit more consistent directing.

Man there is absolutely nothing wrong with how they handled this, you really are just an a manga purist with this show who refuses to accept the anime for doing things its own way.

This show continues to be amazing, and I continue to love being amazed by it.

HayashiTakara

2008-11-20, 07:57

The feelings seem to come out of nowhere, especially with the way the anime been doing it. But still a great episode. The lack of a proper buildup hurts it a little though.

Darknemo2000

2008-11-20, 08:02

you really are just an a manga purist with this show who refuses to accept the anime for doing things its own way.

Manga purist? You are able to recognize that novels and manga are two different things right?

And how does my comment makes me a novel purist? Did you actually read it even?

I was saying that either case they should have followed the original interpretation of Ami Taiga issue (in other words - not really being an issue) thus decreasing the emotionality of the scene in poll to suit the mood better (Taiga isn't that emotional about Ryuuji aka ep6/7) or if they wanted to follow the original emotional impact they should have increased a tone in previous Taiga Ami issue to make this particular scene less random.

So how does that make me a purist? I am just commenting that they should just keep the consistency and not just saying to follow novels blindly (in this particular case, I was criticizing the scene made following the novels. If I was a purist as you claim shouldn't I be happy about it?).

I think its just you whining about whining and seeing purists anywhere where a little bit of criticism is made.

BetoJR

2008-11-20, 08:38

I don't get the whole argument, here... It's not a real confession, anyway. Sure, they could have used more of a build-up, but the anime is trying to feel a bit lighter, isn't it? So, I guess it could work. Anyway, I'm still loving the ride. :D

Darknemo2000

2008-11-20, 10:08

You can be light without inconsistency in directing, but again as I said it is not a really big issue, just that the director for some reason decided to ignore how he presented the Ami issue an bing a rather close novel follow-up there where without additional build-up it did not match with the current anime flow.

BetoJR

2008-11-20, 10:41

But, then again, maybe that was exactly what they were aiming for? Having her reaction come completely out of the blue, and open to speculation?

ipernorris

2008-11-20, 10:45

Does anybody think that Ryuuji's mother is the most interesting character? :naughty:

risingstar3110

2008-11-20, 10:50

anyone else getting sick of taigas attitude towards ryuuji? cuz im finding her to be more annoying every episode.
You have me with you.

1/ Seriously, using buoy to race make the competition becomes pointless, but well it's expectable so i don't mind. Throw objects at other people so hard that they fell down to the pool is a dangerous joke. But strip another classmate's top out then throw it away is really crossing the line.
Try that with real high school student in real life and she will burst in tears and you gonna scar her mentality for life. Ami is just too nice seriously.

2/ She comes along with the trip on her own decision is what i expect. But called the guys (who help her in every way, in every situation) "a dog" right before his and your friends in a such non-joking manner; then see that guy accept it, is a seriously pathetic sight.

First Ep in the whole anime season that i have to use mouse to skip parts because can't stand the sight. First time vote 6 in AS also (normally would not vote if find something so pathetic)

If such absurd things ever happens again, they should make it so it obviously for comedic purpose. Otherwise it's just so hard to stand such scenes.

PS: at least this EP have nice Ami and nice Ryuuji moments, up to 16mins mark.

Darknemo2000

2008-11-20, 10:57

BetoJR, rarely it does happen but rarely. Usually it is needed to create some better flow. Or else you could say that all of the loops and mistakes were planned by the studios. And that the animes earn little or that manga get canceled also happen because the original creators planned it. Which is too much.

I think it was just a mistake. Maybe forced, but again forced by their own ridiculous pacing (single volume in 2 episodes while normally it takes at least 3-4 if followed closely enough).

frubam

2008-11-20, 11:03

In anime since the conflict with Ami was nothing big and shrugged off easily without any impact (which at that moment only strengthened the feeling that taiga do not care about Ryuuji that way) but now we get a random, specially in anime, confession coming totally out of the blue.

I do feel that the moment was random(and LOVED it), but not because I think Taiga has no feelings for him. It's evident that her behavior towards Ryuuji has slowly changed. I'm not saying it's 'love', but there IS at least a mutual close friendship that exists. I don't see how the interference of Ami would be THAT big of a deal if Taiga didn't care about him as someone important, but since he IS important to her, that's why she acted like she did. I also think that the moment she got mad at Ryuuji for not understanding why she's competing against Ami was a clear indication of how she felt about him. Specifically to say, I don't think the confession itself was random, but how they implemented it. Even in novel form, I would think that having this big competition where the class is enjoying the 'show' then all of a sudden Ryuuji gets knocked out and Taiga confessing would be random, regardless of how much it was 'built up'.

And on a side note, whats a tyrol?

You have me with you.

1/ Seriously, using buoy to race make the competition becomes pointless, but well it's expectable so i don't mind. Throw objects at other people so hard that they fell down to the pool is a dangerous joke. But strip another classmate's top out then throw it away is really crossing the line.
Try that with real high school student in real life and she will burst in tears and you gonna scar her mentality for life. Ami is just too nice seriously.

2/ She comes along with the trip on her own decision is what i expect. But called the guys (who help her in every way, in every situation) "a dog" right before his and your friends in a such non-joking manner; then see that guy accept it, is a seriously pathetic sight.

1) Like intentionally trying to come on to Ryuuji with the extra intention of making Taiga angry, perhaps trying to take him away from Taiga, attacking Taiga with mental abuse, and/or throwing a girl who can't swim into a deep pool is any better. Taiga doesn't always have the best personality(personally, I don't mind her at any time), but neither does Ami.

2)Read past the obvious words. Everyone at that table knows Taiga's personality, so it's nothing to get up-in-arms about. If this was the beginning of the series, it'd be one thing. That's like saying in Fruits Basket, everytime Kyo gets mad and calls Tohru stupid, he's insulting her. It's obvious that that's his way of showing he cares about her(in which overtime, if Shigure didn't explain it, Tohru already knew it). Same situation.

BetoJR

2008-11-20, 11:23

Well, in Ami's defense, she didn't know that Taiga couldn't swim, when she threw her at the pool. Gotta give her that, at least...

And Darknemo2000, yeah, it's rare. But this anime seems to be trying very hard to condense the novels and present the happenings in a much faster and compact way, so... just maybe, it was intentional. Just like postponing the whole Kitamura confession, from when it actually appeared in the novels and such.

Darknemo2000

2008-11-20, 11:24

Actually the whole Ami issue seemed not be a big deal concerning Ryuuji but rather Taiga not liking Ami in the anime.

In novels sure you get the vibes that her disliking Ami is juts one of the reason while another one is liking Ryuuji.

In anime yet there is no such feeling. The whole issue is very short and not really important.

I do agree that she has feelings for him, even in anime it is obvious... However what should be discussed is not the feelings existence, but their strength.

Basically her yelling them out was too much. Specially because just an episode ago in a scene where in scene where her possessiveness was also questioned, she juts basically shrugged it off.

If she was feeling them at such strength as it is showed at the pool then her reaction would have been stronger and would not have been so fast forgotten.

Lets just say that JC Staff works so far do not give much trust that they are very planning guys. They make bit too MUCH of such planned loops (ZnT, ShanaII, etc.) to really think they have planned it. Yes teams are different but its stiill the same studio.

So yes, for me much more possible looks a mistake (or forced-mistake) created due to their pacing rather than careful planning.

risingstar3110

2008-11-20, 11:26

1) Like intentionally trying to come on to Ryuuji with the extra intention of making Taiga angry, perhaps trying to take him away from Taiga, attacking Taiga with mental abuse, and/or throwing a girl who can't swim into a deep pool is any better. Taiga doesn't always have the best personality(personally, I don't mind her at any time), but neither does Ami.
It's normal both in the anime and real life to trying make your rival jealous as a joke or real intend.
Then Ryuuji is not a "thing", so she obviously can't "take" him, can she?
The whole class was throwing each other into the pool at that time, so that's a silly joke that they as the whole failed to notice.
2)Read past the obvious words. Everyone at that table knows Taiga's personality, so it's nothing to get up-in-arms about. If this was the beginning of the series, it'd be one thing. That's like saying in Fruits Basket, everytime Kyo gets mad and calls Tohru stupid, he's insulting her. It's obvious that that's his way of showing he cares about her(in which overtime, if Shigure didn't explain it, Tohru already knew it). Same situation.
How many people (as both real and anime characters) you see call others(and themselves) "baka". Then same question but how many uses "dog". Obviously, there is a reason that some words can be used but others can't
You said Kitamura and Ami have already expected Taiga is treating Ryuuji as a dog (literally) and Ryuuji accepts it?
The only one who doesn't mind such words is Minori because she doesn't take things so serious all the time

Darknemo2000

2008-11-20, 11:38

Avacado Burger

2008-11-20, 12:06

Loved this episode. Especially with the brief underwater combat, followed by a bikini top being ripped off somewhere in there

Also could this
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y170/gloomheart/CoalGuysToradora-08FEE6E015mkv-0000.png

Be the next
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y170/gloomheart/macho_001.jpg

?

frubam

2008-11-20, 12:07

Basically her yelling them out was too much. Specially because just an episode ago in a scene where in scene where her possessiveness was also questioned, she juts basically shrugged it off.

If she was feeling them at such strength as it is showed at the pool then her reaction would have been stronger and would not have been so fast forgotten.I don't know which scene you're refering to, but I wouldn't think it would measure up to the anger and 'love'[using the word loosely here] she felt at that moment, when she felt that everyone other than herself left Ryuuji to technically drown after receiving encouragement from him(now that I think about it, why the hell didn't the guys that hit him help him back up? Plot-hole :twitch:?)

It's normal both in the anime and real life to trying make your rival jealous as a joke or real intend.
Then Ryuuji is not a "thing", so she obviously can't "take" him, can she?
The whole class was throwing each other into the pool at that time, so that's a silly joke that they as the whole failed to notice.

How many people (as both real and anime characters) you see call others(and themselves) "baka". Then same question but how many uses "dog". Obviously, there is a reason that some words can be used but others can't
You said Kitamura and Ami have already expected Taiga is treating Ryuuji as a dog (literally) and Ryuuji accepts it?
The only one who doesn't mind such words is Minori because she doesn't take things so serious all the time

It's not normal to degrade someone you just met just because you think you're better that her. Besides, Taiga was just getting her payback by doing the same thing Ami did to her, unexpectantly toss her into the pool.

I'm saying that they understand that Taiga cares for Ryuuji more than her words normally express. As far as Minorin goes, Taiga has already expressed how much Ryuuji does for her, which is why Minorin "left it" to Ryuuji. Ami and Kitamura has observed it as well.

frubam, did Ami knew that Taiga cannot swim? I think she didn't thats why the whole thing is not as bad (yeah a joke but it happens, as if you haven't been pushed into a pool/water at least once). While Taiga pulling off her bikini was intended and knowing full cruelty of that. they are bit different so you cant compare those two acts.

Too bad that some interesting bits were ignored oh well, can't put everything into it, I guess. Specilly not with such ridiculous pace.

Mind you taht even in anime-terms such the way Taiga is acting looks weird and rather abusing to others. Remember that Ami questioned why actually Ryuuji allows Taiga so much. Meaning taht she thinks Taiga is going overboard and yet Ryuuji allows her which she wonders why. So even in anime standards Taiga's acts are not nice.

Ok, so she didn't know Taiga could swim, I'll give her that mistake. Still, Ami at every chance she's been given, has been trying to mentally abuse Taiga with Ryuuji. Yes, she probably has a thing for him, but she makes an effort to try to embarass Taiga both privately and publicly. In terms of psychological damage, Ami has done more to Taiga than the other way around. How was Ami affected by her bikini top being stolen? She had a moment of embarassment, which wasn't really that bad for her mentally. How was Taiga affected when Ami said she told Kitamura about what happened in the restaurant? She was left huddled under the sheets, crying, not even wanting to come out to eat. So you can't act like Ami was traumatized in any way by what Taiga did.

As for Ami asking Ryuuji about Taiga's treatment of him, that was 2 eps ago, when Ami didn't even know Ryuuji or Taiga, nor their relationship. Actually, it was the first time they[Ryuuji/Taiga] acted normally in front of each other in front of her[Ami], so of course she's gonna wonder why Ryuuji accepts it. I feel that since Ami, now, understands the relationship between those two, she knows the reason(or at least ventures a guess).

Deathkillz

2008-11-20, 12:50

What Taiga did was kinda...extreme? :heh:
Well it was just desserts for Ami but having your swim suit torn off was a bit over the top...Taiga sure knows how to take things to the extreme if "throwing things" weren't bad enough :heh:

It's really weird to see how soft Ryuji is towards Taiga...I think that makes his character a bland if all he does is being mr perfect listener and don't do things that show the imperfectness that should be part of being human. I really can't fault him for anything wrong but that itself is not a good trait to have imo.

No he is officially Taiga's dog :rolleyes:

Oh and Minorin's fake eyes made me laugh...

ayu

2008-11-20, 12:53

Darknemo2000

2008-11-20, 13:03

Just because Taiga is an idiot over Kitamura doesn't make Ami worse. Actually Ami thinks that Taiga likes Ryuuji and not Kitamura so she didn't even thought it would hurt her so badly.

You have to understand that even in anime such relationship as Taiga/Ryuuji is viewed as not normal and abusive (thats why Ami questioned it). Later she got used to it. But it doesn't mean such relationship becomes normal.

Taiga still abuses and uses him and his kindness. Only Ryuuji can put up with her. This is not a normal relationship between friends. It is very dysfunctional.

It is like relationship between sadist and masochistic. Both are enjoying and others tolerate it to a certain level, but it is still different from what a normal a normal relationship is (be it friends or lovers).

Ayu - gratefulness is one thing, possessiveness is completely different one. The scale of intensity is different so I think you are making a illogical mistake connecting the gratefulness with such possessiveness as we see in the pool.

Note I do not question the feelings. though their existence was showed mare vague than in novels in manga you can't question them in total. The question is about the itensity and it does not match the reaction to Ami and the reaction in here.

Caster13

2008-11-20, 15:02

Another great episode. Really, I just can't stop loving every second and minute of this show!

I especially like how this was an analyze-everything-about-Ryuuji-episode. In every one-on-one conversation he had--Ami, Minori, Yasuko--they all picked and probed at him, pulling out little bits of himself to see with his own eyes. Like many people though, it takes him a while to understand the bits of himself everybody is pointing at and only starts to get an inkling of what he feels when he hands over the lunchbox to Taiga. Despite the confusing argument the day before, he stops trying to presume what she wants and tells her that he wants her to win and suddenly realizes there might be other things he wants as well.

And Taiga. She always knew what she wanted until now. First there was the students in the class pool talking about how she's competing for Ryuuji. A little shock but she seems to brush it off. It's not till later on at the public pool is she forced to seriously consider what exactly she is doing. As long as she has something to help keep her afloat, she's able to swim just fine, she actually has a chance of winning and beating Ami. She can win; she can have... what exactly? What she does have is that moment we all experience some point in our lives where we realize we don't know exactly what we want. The last few moments at the public pool was a violently beautiful scene: one that conveys the abruptness of a sudden halt in one's life. Maybe Taiga screaming at the class not to touch Ryuuji because he's hers seems a bit sudden, sometimes our emotions are too subtle even for ourselves until they break out like that. Besides, since when has Taiga ever been the kind to keep her emotions under control?

Ami is a beautiful enigma--in more ways than one. I think she continues to slowly and subtly shed her fake personality. She's never been more openly spiteful and mean spirited then when she tells Taiga that she will be all alone during the summer. Showing off her bikini at the class pool was also an excellent display of public narcissism. Then there's how she... does whatever the hell she's doing with/to Ryuuji! He seems to be the only guy she can genuinely open up to: telling him the conditions she finds peace and comfort in is a fairly intimate subject, I think. She also enjoys teasing him about Taiga as well. But what's her angle with all of this? Is she genuinely trying to approach him as a friend--or even more than that? Or is she laying down a web to trap Ryuuji and Taiga, tangling the two in the confusion of their own feelings and emotions before perhaps tearing that web apart?

And finally: I absolutely loved how Taiga has no compunctions about fighting dirty :D

Shiroth

2008-11-20, 15:13

Does anybody think that Ryuuji's mother is the most interesting character? :naughty:
I wouldn't say most interesting, though she does have a strong input in the show --- a lot more then you'd expect after her first scene in the first episode. I'm really glad about this really, because she is a fun character.

Vexx

2008-11-20, 15:17

Broke down and watched a raw..... I believe Caster13 described my observations so I won't bother repeating them :)
For an "anime episode", it had quite a high density of information and content.

Caster13

2008-11-20, 15:51

I wouldn't say most interesting, though she does have a strong input in the show --- a lot more then you'd expect after her first scene in the first episode. I'm really glad about this really, because she is a fun character.

If you think about it Ya-chan is the only character who's ever experienced a real, fulfilling romantic relationship--or, I suppose, experienced the most of one, though I suppose that also requires some assumptions about Ryuuji's father, i.e. he was as good a guy as her mother makes him out to be. Anyways! Even the home room teacher and gym teacher are still single.

So, naturally, I wouldn't be surprised if Ya-chan's got some more wisdom to share with Ryuuji and Taiga.

BetoJR

2008-11-20, 16:41

(now that I think about it, why the hell didn't the guys that hit him help him back up? Plot-hole :twitch:?)
Not really. In the heat of things, nobody noticed it. That's basically the most alarming thing, really: if Taiga hadn't seen him going down, he could have died right then and there.

Vexx

2008-11-20, 17:00

Yacchan wisdom: Even if its only "he was what he was and I loved him anyway, he was special to me".
She probably had to work her way into her gangster love's defensive shells as well.

Darknemo2000

2008-11-20, 17:44

Besides, since when has Taiga ever been the kind to keep her emotions under control?

Since episode 6/7 unless you are saying that she didnt had any emotions then, and suddenly had a massive character development during a single episode which is hard to believe.

If she kept her emotions in control then this whole outburst here should have downplayed as we know she did and the situations were similar in a sense
for her to yell "He is mine".

Since she didn't yell there she should not have yelled in here as well. She could let those feelings be known in some other, just anime way because they already did that to the whole Ami deal. The should have kept consistency and do it in their own way if they are doing it, if they are not then they should not change events that are chained with a row of events eventually.

Haesslich

2008-11-20, 18:25

How many people (as both real and anime characters) you see call others(and themselves) "baka". Then same question but how many uses "dog". Obviously, there is a reason that some words can be used but others can't
You said Kitamura and Ami have already expected Taiga is treating Ryuuji as a dog (literally) and Ryuuji accepts it?
The only one who doesn't mind such words is Minori because she doesn't take things so serious all the time

Odd - I've heard friendly conversations which use the word 'idiot' to refer to the other person without being overtly (or covertly) insulting, but more as a mild rebuke. "Of course not, you idiot!" or "Don't be such a moron" being two examples of the types of statements exchanged, especially between people who know one another semi-well. Or using words like "bitch" in an affectionate manner, for that matter.

And the anime doesn't show Taiga treating Ryuuji like a dog in a literal sense - she rails verbal abuse on him, but at the same time he can push back.... and that's one th ing that the anime dropped from the sources that I disagree with. Of course, people with poor relationships might not understand that you can insult one another in a friendly manner... ;)

BigJimmy

2008-11-20, 18:32

While I did find the way Taiga cried over the top (Christ, the way she screamed, you'd think he actually died!), it was a touching moment for me. True, she did then go back to the whole "Dog and his master" thing, but that just suggests to me a way of saving face in front of Ami, her eternal nemesis.

Also, I've noticed Minori calling Ryuuji "Akechi-kun". What does that mean?

Odd - I've heard friendly conversations which use the word 'idiot' to refer to the other person without being overtly (or covertly) insulting, but more as a mild rebuke. "Of course not, you idiot!" or "Don't be such a moron" being two examples of the types of statements exchanged, especially between people who know one another semi-well. Or using words like "bitch" in an affectionate manner, for that matter.

Pffft, I've used FAR worse insults to my mates, male and female. And they've used them on me. It's odd, but when you get close to someone, you get comfortable using those kinds of insults safe in the knowledge that they know you don't really mean it.

frubam

2008-11-20, 19:10

I always say "Wassup dog" to my friends. I call just about all of my friends 'dogs' :heh:. Yeah bad joke, i know :).

Just because Taiga is an idiot over Kitamura doesn't make Ami worse. Actually Ami thinks that Taiga likes Ryuuji and not Kitamura so she didn't even thought it would hurt her so badly

Yeah the emphasis was placed on what Ami said she told Kitamura, but she also, just before saying that, said Ryuuji no longer cared about her, and he left Taiga for Ami. It could be said what Ami's intentions were in telling her that, which is to crush[that's her word(translated) in ep 6 preview] her emotionally.

@frubam...You don't present anything to the table to counter what I said. It almost makes me want to stoop to your level, but you're not worth it. Her 'bitching' is okay, because I understand her circumstances and know of her char. However, I DON'T take to people who I don't even know or associate with(even on a forum level) talking to me like that. I've been pretty much at odds with how Darknemo thinks about the Taiga situation, amongst other things, but at least s/he has constructive posts to argue/counterargue what I'm saying, and I respect that. Your personal attack toward me w/o any intelligent reason does nothing but make you look like an ass. If you don't have anything constructive to add, don't reply to my posts.

Master Chibi

2008-11-20, 19:25

Vexx

2008-11-20, 19:30

Some people are just not seeing what other people see as emotional cues and shifts as the series develops. I don't know if that's cultural, experiential, their subtlety skills, or what.

In my case, my subjective view is that I see a steady development in the RxT saga and the poolside scene was just an semi-epiphany for her. (though I'll also critique that I think the VA overdid it somewhat and that certain moments were unanimated that might have made it more obvious to the casual viewer what was building). Teenage emotions can be pretty bipolar at times though ...

stormy001_M1A2

2008-11-20, 19:54

I think the part where Taiga was screaming incoherently and realizing that Ryuji can be gone does hinted at next level of emotional progression.

fict_ticious

2008-11-20, 19:57

Well, that episode made me eat my words in my comment on 7. They followed through with the whole thing in episode 8.

Next up is obligatory summer holiday episode. Will we get a ghost story/test of courage in addition to this?

Darknemo2000

2008-11-20, 20:26

Yeah the emphasis was placed on what Ami said she told Kitamura, but she also, just before saying that, said Ryuuji no longer cared about her, and he left Taiga for Ami. It could be said what Ami's intentions were in telling her that, which is to crush[that's her word(translated) in ep 6 preview] her emotionally.

The problem is that Taiga is calling Ryuuji a dog before becoming friends. She just abuses him and considering how others see that relationship other thing it is not 'right' as well. They just eventually learn to ignore it as both seem happy, one can abuse, the other can suffer from it - perfect sadist and masochist relationship. Though it is still out of norms it makes them happy so whatever.

Its funny that Ami thinks Taiga likes Ryuuji, and could be actually right (girl intuition anyone) maybe more right than those who think she likes Kitamura...

And yep she is a bitch. But so is Taiga... and I happen to think that Taiga is a bigger one on the way she treats Ryuuji and what seh did to ami in the pool. Even if Ami took it ok, normally doing that to a girl before crowd of people who are from your schooland classroom do not lead to good results. Worser than just saying that the one you love do not care about you.

Well Ami is also Taiga's personal nemesis and you cannot enjoy that specially knowing how Taiga goes over the board using Ryuuji.

I mean put Ryuuji and Louise together, and there would be no whipping, no explosions and alsmot no screaming (she is still Louise). Meaning that Ryuuji is a really nice guy which makes every Taiga's bitchy act on him look more evil than lets say on Saito (who usually deserves majority of it anyway).

Chibi I already ecplained why. Basically the difference between the scenes in ep 6/7 and the 8th pool scene look too random.

And no randomness is not good. Look at ZnT. It is full of randomness like characters appearing without a reason, loosing magical abilities without a reason, moving to another city without a reason, returning back from a war without ANY reason and so on... ZnT is full of randomness and I think you would would agree with me that it does not make the show better.

It is better to avoid randomness and inconsistency in directing, even if it became a sort of visiting-card of JC Staff lately.

Freya

2008-11-20, 20:31

ooo nice episode as always.

Next ep should be good. Taiga with badminton racket. What awesomeness. Badminton!! Woot! rofl.

typhonsentra

2008-11-20, 20:34

Wow, Crunchyroll's been good about getting this show up early lately.

Peanutbutter

2008-11-20, 20:38

Some people are just not seeing what other people see as emotional cues and shifts as the series develops. I don't know if that's cultural, experiential, their subtlety skills, or what.

Agreed.

The subtle stuff that I sensed so far made me like this series. There's quite a fair bit of things here that can't be taken literally. I'm surprised myself by how some of the comments here can be so polarised. Maybe it's really a clash of cultures that caused this.

For the info, I haven't read the novels yet, and staying away from novel spoilers, though I do planned to start them once this series ends, to find out what's skipped, and what's different.

Kushi

2008-11-20, 20:39

frubam, did Ami knew that Taiga cannot swim? I think she didn't thats why the whole thing is not as bad (yeah a joke but it happens, as if you haven't been pushed into a pool/water at least once). While Taiga pulling off her bikini was intended and knowing full cruelty of that. they are bit different so you cant compare those two acts.

Too bad that some interesting bits were ignored oh well, can't put everything into it, I guess. Specilly not with such ridiculous pace.

Mind you taht even in anime-terms such the way Taiga is acting looks weird and rather abusing to others. Remember that Ami questioned why actually Ryuuji allows Taiga so much. Meaning taht she thinks Taiga is going overboard and yet Ryuuji allows her which she wonders why. So even in anime standards Taiga's acts are not nice.

Exactly what I think.

I don't know how people here can compare Taiga's acts to Ami's acts. Ami plays jokes like a bitchy immature little girl, while her jokes may be a bit harmful they're exactly what you expect a normal bitchy girl would do. I've seen girls cat fight like she does, and I've seen 2 faced girls exactly like her.

However in Taiga's case, throwing things at people on the diving board is amazingly dangerous... not only that, she also rips Ami's bikini off and throws it a long way. If this happened to any normal girl, she would have left the pool/room in tears a long time ago.... All I'm going to say is, Ami's acts are what a normal bitch would do. Taiga's acts are just completely utterly outrageous. She should be put into jail.

8/10 because I'm getting annoyed by Taiga's assholeing and Ryuuji being such a pushover. However Ami hitting on Ryu and Minorin's sleeping was the highlights of the episode

Vexx

2008-11-20, 21:03

Like I said, people are watching the same series and coming away with wildly different interpretations. That is informative as it shows how people bring their own baggage into the processing of what they see. No one is immune to it - all one can do is be aware when they're projecting.

Ami isn't a "normal girl" -- she's a model aka one who changes clothes surrounded by lots of people.

Throwing things at someone at a pool in an anime is no more dangerous than.. .throwing people into a pool unwillingly or jumping off into the pool on top of people. They're all forms of assault.

You're labeling Taiga an ass and Ryuuji a pushover, other people see it in a more complicated light or perhaps its a challenge. All of these characters are broken in some way, can they adapt to each other?

Master Chibi

2008-11-20, 21:55

@ Dark:

It is better to avoid randomness and inconsistency in directing, even if it became a sort of visiting-card of JC Staff lately.

This is 100% your opinion. This whole 'inconsistency' line of yours is making me roll my eyes back so far that I'm viable to pull a muscle somehow.

Why are you even watching this show to begin with, it's like you just happily sit there waiting to nitpick it to hell, going right for its knees, without giving it a chance to stand on its own two legs and be its own damn entity.

Damn.

kir44n

2008-11-20, 22:05

kro

2008-11-20, 22:18

A fundamental difference between the anime and novels is that anime is pressed for time, whereas novels are not.

A good anime needs to use atmosphere, facial expressions, and inflections in tone to cut out those wordy inner monologues in the novel. Thus, everything is not gonna be spelled out for you, and a few extraneous scenes will be cut out.

I've been reading the novels and watching the anime concurrently, and I am very pleased with how the anime is handling things. I don't see any inconsistencies. There are just some things that you need to infer. The changes they do make are intelligent and allow for more consistency for someone who has not read the novels. There is also a great deal of content packed into one episode, which I prefer.

arkxkra

2008-11-20, 22:39

good episode, very fun to watch.
early part of the show, lol at Minori, sleeping and drawing the eyes on her eyes :heh:.
I guess Taiga was quite complicated of her feeling, this episode it show how she care Ryuji so much.

Samatarou

2008-11-20, 22:42

I'm surprised at how so many people are censuring Taiga's behavour in this episode, I mean this is a girl who punched Ryuuji in the face (hard) in the first episode and yet he became friends with her instead of having her thrown into jail or at the least expelled, so clearly this is a series with a high degree of cartoony behaviour that isn't meant to be taken literally. Ripping Ami's bikini top off is one of Taiga's milder acts and certainly one of the funnier things she's done. Moreover that kind of thing does sometimes happen in real life and although it might cause embarrassment such involuntary wardrobe malfunctions are unlikely to scar someone emotionally IME. I saw it as a comeuppance for Ami wearing a bikini when she knew it was against the school swimming dresscode.

Overall I enjoyed the episode and am looking forward to the next one where hopefully similar antics will reoccur! Also Minori seems to be warming to Ryuuji more and more, I wonder whether Taiga is going to realise that her own feelings for Ryuuji are creating a quandry regarding helping him with Minori (not that she's been doing anything much on that front!)

Master Chibi

2008-11-20, 22:43

I absolutely loved this weeks episode. The moment for me was taiga's complete conviction with her utterance "Ryuuji is mine" . If the class wasn't already positive she liked him before, they damn well know it now.

Although...I'm noticing alot of taiga hate, especially referencing her constant describing ryuuji as a "dog". I myself don't see an issue with this. She originally used the term as a derogative insult towards him. However, this only lasted so long as their formal "agreement" did, which ended in episode two. She began using the term again after Ryuuji gave her support after Kitamura rejected her. Looking at the context in which its being used (context of their interpersonal relationship), I believe its become a term of endearment as opposed to an insult.

It also has the side benefit of appearing to be an insult to an outside observer, while those who know otherwise (Ryuuji, Kitamura, Ami) don't take the term at face value.

A fundamental difference between the anime and novels is that anime is pressed for time, whereas novels are not.

A good anime needs to use atmosphere, facial expressions, and inflections in tone to cut out those wordy inner monologues in the novel. Thus, everything is not gonna be spelled out for you, and a few extraneous scenes will be cut out.

I've been reading the novels and watching the anime concurrently, and I am very pleased with how the anime is handling things. I don't see any inconsistencies. There are just some things that you need to infer. The changes they do make are intelligent and allow for more consistency for someone who has not read the novels. There is also a great deal of content packed into one episode, which I prefer.

Oh man, where are you wonderful people and your logic coming from?

Seriously, let's all have babies.

Vexx

2008-11-20, 23:09

Only if you look like Maka :)

Caster13

2008-11-20, 23:23

Since episode 6/7 unless you are saying that she didnt had any emotions then, and suddenly had a massive character development during a single episode which is hard to believe.

I did a quick re-watch of six: in more than one instance her anger boils over to the point that she becomes violent (mostly involving projectile garbage).

Seven: hits Ami with her bag, panic attack/break down in the swimsuit store and crying about how she looks in her swimsuit later on, descends into nearly incoherent gibbering after Kitamura talks to her; and then there's that little desk-earthquake at the end of the episode.

I didn't mean emotions towards Ryuuji, but rather emotions in general. Taiga's a naturally outspoken, knee-jerk, moody, and violent person. She has a low tolerance for intense emotion and in most cases, it's obvious when she's dealing with more than she can handle internally.

What changes between episodes six, seven, and eight isn't her ability to control her emotions, but what she becomes emotional about, i.e. what she thinks of/how she feels towards Ryuuji.

Her perception of Ryuuji began in the very first episode with their very first interaction: punching him in the face. In terms of actions, their relationship had been progressing almost every episode: eating at his place, eating his lunch boxes, taking him to Johny's; asking Ryuuji for help to get a picture of Kitamura; showing herself in her swimsuit to him.

The thing about feelings is that they're not always apparent or obvious. As the saying goes, one doesn't realize what one has until it's taken from them: from episodes six to eight, Taiga (thinks she) sees Ryuuji becoming closer to Ami (Ami coming onto him, Ami inviting him to her villa, Ryuuji saying he would go to her villa) and considering the kind of person Taiga is, she's like to presume that also means he's moving farther away from her. That, if anything, is when she realizes that Ryuuji's always there for her.

In regards to the abuse within the Ryuuji-Taiga relationship and what Taiga did to Ami in the pool, I think one should remember that there is a level of disconnect between reality and television (especially in animation, look at how people react to Bugs and Tweety). Taiga and Ryuuji are perfect for one another because they are a sado-masochist pairing. Is it an abusive relationship judged according to the norms of reality? Yes. But the Three Stooges with their eye gouging and fists to the face would be repeat violent offenders according to the same norms. The wonderful thing about television (and fiction in general) is that it allows for the comedy of exaggeration, extremes, and dysfunction. This same line of thinking applies to the things Taiga's done to Ami (plus, considering Ami's narcissistic personality and her modeling career, I think it's reasonable to think she wouldn't be embarrassed by the whole deal. I don't think it'd be possible for Ami to be embarrassed about her body at all).

If Taiga were to be judged and punished according to the consequences of our world. She'd had been expelled from her school probably the instant she punched Ryuuji in episode one and then we'd have no show to watch!

Taiga being a violent bitch is exactly what makes the tender moments about her so wonderful. It's the necessary bipolar dichotomy of the tsundere archetype. Ryuuji plays a key part in not only being the target of her tsun abuse but also the main catalyst in bringing out her dere tenderness.

Anyway, I should stop writing so much.

Addendum: I've been re-watching a few different episodes while writing up all of the above. Guess who I am: "Duru-duru-duru-duru-duru-duru-duru-duru-duru--hmph-jum!"

risingstar3110

2008-11-21, 00:14

I always say "Wassup dog" to my friends. I call just about all of my friends 'dogs' :heh:. Yeah bad joke, i know.
...then following with "you are my dog afterall, and it's master duty to restraint their own dog from messing around...". Then it's no longer a joke.

Of course it could be "people with poor relationships might not understand that you can insult one another in a friendly manner"... Surely there must be a culture where high school students identify such talks as friendly manner that they could throw at each other and use them as joke; and i doubt i if i ever want to be in such one.

Whatever. I can't spend much times for things i do not enjoy.

Tyabann

2008-11-21, 00:46

Then why bother posting here in the first place?

Avacado Burger

2008-11-21, 02:12

Taiga being a violent bitch is exactly what makes the tender moments about her so wonderful. It's the necessary bipolar dichotomy of the tsundere archetype. Ryuuji plays a key part in not only being the target of her tsun abuse but also the main catalyst in bringing out her dere tenderness.

See though... Taiga's nature is really pushing the "tsundere" to rather harsh extremes. In accordance of the famous Shiraishi tsundere speech, I'd be more inclined to call Taiga 'severely bipolar', instead of referring to her as a true tsundere. Does she fall in that technical definition? I guess, but she really rides the maximum peaks of those sadistic highs, and bawls like a baby during those deep sea lows. These don't even seem like natural emotional progressions either, kinda just change emotions on a whim. A lot.

She's got some serious problems that need to be addressed. A little screwed up, if you will. But can I truly blame her though? She lives by herself and can't cook, is completely flat, people are afraid of her, and gets called the Palmtop Tiger. By this rationale, I'd be a little pissed off at the world as well.

Still love the kiddo, though.

Tyabann

2008-11-21, 02:16

See though... Taiga's nature is really pushing the "tsundere" to rather harsh extremes. In accordance of the famous Shiraishi tsundere speech, I'd be more inclined to call Taiga 'severely bipolar', instead of referring to her as a true tsundere.

Shiraishi's tsundere speech fails to take in to account the evolution of language and how language is used. Shiraishi's definition would more fall under "Defrosting Ice Queen", these days.

Haesslich

2008-11-21, 02:18

Of course it could be "people with poor relationships might not understand that you can insult one another in a friendly manner"... Surely there must be a culture where high school students identify such talks as friendly manner that they could throw at each other and use them as joke; and i doubt i if i ever want to be in such one.

Whatever. I can't spend much times for things i do not enjoy.

... so if you don't enjoy it, why are you watching ToraDora in the first place? To have something to complain about?

Beyond that, friendly insults don't 'just' happen in high school. I've seen them in the workplace, at sporting events and in team sports, and just about everywhere else. To say that someone calling someone else a bitch is meant to be hurtful, no ifs, ands, or buts, is a sign of either extreme presumption or else that one takes things too seriously. Or has no friends, or lacks any interaction with other human beings. Context is everything when it comes to statements - otherwise calling someone a genius would be always an acclamation of someone's intellect, when the situation could be the reverse; that's what we call sarcasm, after all. Or the reverse example of 'magnificent bastard' - which should be an insult (calling someone a very large or exceptionally exemplary product of a union between unwed parents aka: illegitimate child)... isn't.

Beyond that, idiom depends on context as well as shared understandings... and humans aren't always very literal minded. Look at how the exclamation "look out' developed - it doesn't usually mean to look around; it is used rather to tell someone about an immediate danger. Or should I point to the usage of one-word statements like "Duck!" which are dependent on the tone of voice as well as situation? Thus in this situation, one has to look at when and how Taiga's calling Ryuuji a certain name - just as 'Palmtop Tiger' isn't a literal description of Taiga (she is neither four to six inches long or an actual Siberian or Indian tiger), 'dog' in this situation may not be her calling him a dog or even a serious insult. As Yasuko pointed out earlier in this episode, if Taiga really hated Ryuuji she wouldn't be getting all worked up over him.

Avacado Burger

2008-11-21, 02:24

Shiraishi's tsundere speech fails to take in to account the evolution of language and how language is used. Shiraishi's definition would more fall under "Defrosting Ice Queen", these days.

True, but even then not taking language into account, I've always judged tsundere on primarily behavior, and whereas it used to be this process of natural progression, you call it Defrosting the Ice Queen, I call it Sieging the Fort; it's now just this bipolar hot/cold/hot/cold up/down/up/down hate/love/hate/love with little to no middle ground (where you can see the results starting to work).

I mean it's OK once in an awhile, but all these tsundere characters now have this neurotic bipolar trait to them.

Anyways, said what I had on my chest. Carry on with Episode 8!

Vexx

2008-11-21, 02:35

See though... Taiga's nature is really pushing the "tsundere" to rather harsh extremes. In accordance of the famous Shiraishi tsundere speech, I'd be more inclined to call Taiga 'severely bipolar', instead of referring to her as a true tsundere. Does she fall in that technical definition? I guess, but she really rides the maximum peaks of those sadistic highs, and bawls like a baby during those deep sea lows. These don't even seem like natural emotional progressions either, kinda just change emotions on a whim. A lot.

She's got some serious problems that need to be addressed. A little screwed up, if you will. But can I truly blame her though? She lives by herself and can't cook, is completely flat, people are afraid of her, and gets called the Palmtop Tiger. By this rationale, I'd be a little pissed off at the world as well.

Still love the kiddo, though.

Aye, everyone in this cast is dysfunctional and broken in different ways. Its a *story* about such people and how they bond (or not). Taiga has a really thick shell but clearly Ryuuji senses it is just a shell (as does Minorin and Kitamura). Ami has several facets - none quite healthy; her dysfunctionality is almost driving her into psychosis and it comes out in fits of meanness; but Kitamura thinks there's something salvageable in her and eventually so does Ryuuji. Taiga wants to help but only for Kitamura's sake. Minorin has a crusty shell of manic comedic happy happy joy joy -- haven't quite got an angle on her inner demons yet. Kitamura seems incapable of fixing anything himself, has a thing about rough women. Sumire looks beautiful, talks tough, but can't seem to remember anything. The teacher is neurotic over her "christmas cake dilemma", Ryuuji's mom is a sad little basketcase of a widow working a pretend happyhappy job.
And so on and so on.

The result is character-driven drama as they interact and comedy in the tragic sense about the human condition. Okay, that's putting a bit too much weight on the story -- but for some of us, we're finding that somewhat compelling.

Darknemo2000

2008-11-21, 03:05

Caster, As I said, the Taiga emotions mostly seem to come from her dis likeness towards Ami rather than her having much feelings to Ryuuji and besides the scenes simply cannot compare in the sense of intensity.

Which what makes it look so random.

One episode ago she was taking it well, and having it all controlled (more or less) and definitively not yelling out Loudly, she didn't even care much about the whole issue as it was forgotten very soon, this is what makes this scene in the pool so weird and out of place.

I never questioned the general development but I do question how the heck the situation changed during one episode that did not have had much (or major) of character development to begin with. You describe me how their feelings changed in general - of course they did, but no one questioned that. The question is upon the level of intensity produced within a gap of one episode. And since that episode did not have the time skip the difference in level of intensity cannot be explained by that (and by gradual progression either). To quickly change this much the episode itself has to have some major shock that could be a development reason... But we cannot see one - the whole Ami thing was forgotten in the beginning already, and the rest epsidoe centered on the swimming. The greatest shock would be Ryuuji touching her breasts, but i doubt it could be used as a mean to explain such such emotional intensity change that we witnessed here.

It is nice having them follow novels and all but they should also pay attention to the differences their anime adaption is creating and to follow them rather than juts write down a scene that is suited for novels but would require some additional build-up for the anime.

Vexx

2008-11-21, 03:10

It is nice having them follow novels and all but they should also pay attention to the differences their anime adaption is creating and to follow them rather than juts write down a scene that is suited for novels but would require some additional build-up for the anime.

Now that statement I can certainly agree with....

The first thing I'll concede in much of anime is that skilled anime adaptation writers are more an exception than the rule. They often tend to run into trouble when they create blank space they have to fill or when they have to condense material and then connect the results.

Darknemo2000

2008-11-21, 03:24

Which is what I believe happened in here. Director took a different turn in here (by making Ami issue not that important to Taiga and not showing that Taiga is jealousy, which seemed to indicate that differently from novels in anime Taiga do not harbor that intense feelings at this point to make it an issue). So one could assume that the next scene it is connected to - swimming pool would be altered accordingly, but the director either decided to ignore what he did before or simply fell in a pitch created by his lack of directing skills and were not confident he could wiggle his way out, and decided to just simply write down the novel plot not paying attention to the differences he created.

Vexx

2008-11-21, 03:36

The workaround seems to be that Taiga suddenly wonders WHY she was engaged in this duel. She knew she must attack Ami but she forgets to ask why until partway through the episode and she's not sure of the answer. What is the prize here? The band-aid is that she realizes what is important just as she sees Ryuuji drowning.

Aye, not the cleanest thing in the world and yeah, I'd rather have 48 episodes of ToraDora and let it play out in full technicolor.

But so far -- looking at the anime as a stand-alone storytelling effort: the connecting points in ep 8 seems to just manage to work for the reasons offered.

Its subjective -- it can be argued the other way easily enough.

Tiran86

2008-11-21, 04:03

I don't think Taiga's outburst was too out of the blue even with the fast pacing the anime has shown. Ryuuji nearly drowned, which nobody even noticed. Taiga is very prone to emotional outbursts. Somebody that important to her nearly dying is more than enough to warrant an outburst like that and you see her trying to tell Ryuuji how she feels earlier, so it was obviously on her mind.

The oddest decision I've seen from the anime director was the decision to downplay Taiga's reaction to the Ami incident. Well that, and the two filler episodes, but I liked that addition since it developed Minori a bit more than the novel had at that point. Plus it hints a bit about what we learn about Minori in volume 4 of the novel. Or at least I think thats what the intention was.

Oh well, I've been very happy with the adaptation so far. I love these characters for all their many disfuctions.

SuperKnuckles

2008-11-21, 04:57

Heh, the Aisaka training montage featured a Chariots of Fire remix. :heh:

Such a classic Olympic-training-montage music.

Oxtail

2008-11-21, 05:00

I thought the way they changed the scene in the anime made Taiga's scream a little random and at the same time lessened the emotional impact.

In the novels, there were a ton of people in the pool and it was pretty chaotic. Ryuuji really WAS in danger of drowning. In the anime, there are only 3 people in the pool up to that point and everyone clearly heard Taiga's "Ryuuji!!!" and to the viewer it looks like a complete overreaction on Taiga's part.

I'm also disappointed they didn't animate my favorite little scene from this chapter where Ami spots Ryuuji in the confusion, smiles, and then flashes her breasts at him. :D

frivolity

2008-11-21, 05:16

I agree. The outburst on its own was intense, and was masterfully done by Rie, but the buildup was not there.

The novels described Taiga as using the last of her strength to rescue Ryuuji while letting herself sink, which builds up the intensity within the scene. Taiga had a cramp, had to drag Ryuuji to the end of the pool while fighting exhaustion, had to face a hostile and apathetic crowd that thought Ryuuji was swimming with her, and nearly drowned trying to save him. She finally snapped.

The anime skipped most of these, and the lack of build up, as so many people have pointed out, makes it appear random.

Tiran86

2008-11-21, 05:18

Hmm. Dunno, I can see it, but than I'm pretty following both version as they're released or translated.

SuperKnuckles

2008-11-21, 06:54

I think the way the novel scene was described was a bit too intense for what is still about Taiga and blustering out that she may care more for Ryuuji than she let on (at least to classmates). Also, it sorta doesn't make sense if there was way more ruckus than there were in a one on one duel anyway.

risingstar3110

2008-11-21, 08:09

... so if you don't enjoy it, why are you watching ToraDora in the first place? To have something to complain about?

Beyond that, friendly insults don't 'just' happen in high school. I've seen them in the workplace, at sporting events and in team sports, and just about everywhere else. To say that someone calling someone else a bitch is meant to be hurtful, no ifs, ands, or buts, is a sign of either extreme presumption or else that one takes things too seriously. Or has no friends, or lacks any interaction with other human beings. Context is everything when it comes to statements - otherwise calling someone a genius would be always an acclamation of someone's intellect, when the situation could be the reverse; that's what we call sarcasm, after all. Or the reverse example of 'magnificent bastard' - which should be an insult (calling someone a very large or exceptionally exemplary product of a union between unwed parents aka: illegitimate child)... isn't.

Beyond that, idiom depends on context as well as shared understandings... and humans aren't always very literal minded. Look at how the exclamation "look out' developed - it doesn't usually mean to look around; it is used rather to tell someone about an immediate danger. Or should I point to the usage of one-word statements like "Duck!" which are dependent on the tone of voice as well as situation? Thus in this situation, one has to look at when and how Taiga's calling Ryuuji a certain name - just as 'Palmtop Tiger' isn't a literal description of Taiga (she is neither four to six inches long or an actual Siberian or Indian tiger), 'dog' in this situation may not be her calling him a dog or even a serious insult. As Yasuko pointed out earlier in this episode, if Taiga really hated Ryuuji she wouldn't be getting all worked up over him.
That's why i use "much".

Nukerjsr

2008-11-21, 08:10

I'll give this an 8 for what happened. (More of like, a 7. A +1 though for Ami with a sideways ponytail which is really moe)

I was kind of confused halfway through with Taiga's anger since it seemed rather sudden and abrupt, but it was kind of interesting to watch it play out. While it's natural for someone like Taiga to throw a tantrum over such an issue, I just wish we could have her understand her issues when she was a little more innocent and understanding. I wonder if she really knows that she shouldn't treat other people this way, or people may of stare at her because of her violent attitude.

It was a good episode, but still felt like it could have more. Not to mention that it doesn't really affect anything since Ryuuji is still a "dog" and everyone is now going to the Villa. Instead of them just agreeing to it, they had to have this big whole rivalry.

I'm still rather confused though with the rest of the main cast. We are only at Episode 8, but it feels like we should get more input from them. Particularly from Kitamura and Minori. Ami right now is being used just to push Taiga's buttons, which work on a tsundere, but I feel like it defeats her purpose. I hope that when we move to the next episode we see some more of her personal side.

And am I the only one who's really irritated about the other students? I mean, first off they set up this whole plan to bet against Taiga vs. Ami, yet they want to exclusively keep Ryuuji out of it. While the contest is taking place, there are other male students complaning to Ryuuji about how he's so lucky to be fought over, especially by "Ami-tan." And during the contest when Ryuuji gets Taiga to start swimming again, they push one student into the pool right on to Ryuuji. And no one bothers to save him, causing Taiga to do it and let Ami win the competition. ...where are there sense of decency?

risingstar3110

2008-11-21, 08:11

Caster13

2008-11-21, 10:38

Caster, As I said, the Taiga emotions mostly seem to come from her dis likeness towards Ami rather than her having much feelings to Ryuuji and besides the scenes simply cannot compare in the sense of intensity.

Which what makes it look so random.

One episode ago she was taking it well, and having it all controlled (more or less) and definitively not yelling out Loudly, she didn't even care much about the whole issue as it was forgotten very soon, this is what makes this scene in the pool so weird and out of place.

Not just one episode, but five days.

The end of episode six, starting with where Taiga becomes more aware of how she feels about the relationship between her and Ryuuji, Taiga sees Ami coming onto Ryuuji.
Episode seven continues on from the same day but, includes the passing of two days throughout the entire episode.
Episode eight starts on a new day and involves the passing of three more days with the competition being on the third.

One hundred and twenty hours is a lot of time for someone to have to think about. And when it comes to romance, that's something that can easily be obsessed over. Five days ago she might have just been annoyed at Ami, but five days is a lot of times for something to fester and boil over.

Since Taiga's wild and emotionally unstable in general. I don't think it matters what she gets emotional about, she's just easy to set off.

See though... Taiga's nature is really pushing the "tsundere" to rather harsh extremes.

The wonderful thing about television (and fiction in general) is that it allows for the comedy of exaggeration, extremes, and dysfunction.

Oh, and, does anybody have any idea what the end-of-episode preview meant? Kitamura has black seaweed...? Did she like, get a look at his junk or something...?

BetoJR

2008-11-21, 11:10

Oh, you will be quite pleasantly surprised with the seaweed... At least, I hope. :D

Sinestra

2008-11-21, 11:12

Good episode lots of development and lots of laughs. Taiga is very emotional character which is one of the reasons why i like her. Granted most of the time those emotions are expressed in anger but every now and then like in this episode we get a good look at how much range her character has. Its not surprising that she got emotional over Ryu almost drowning. Linking her previous statements to Ryu over not knowing herself and then stating Ryuuji is mine made perfect sense to me. She was not sure why she was competing with Ami. She dislikes Ami so any way she make her lose face Taiga would take but it was different this time as Taiga got very defensive over Ryuuji. When she finally figured it out everything came bursting out like a dam that was hit with rocket. Repressed emotions and not understanding them when they surface results in what we saw happen to Taiga.

In short ADOLESCENTS IS BITCH

But i must admit i died laughing when Taiga threw all the kiddy pool toys and tore Ami swimsuit off and launched it to slow her down. Work smarter not harder good job Taiga even though you lost.

Darknemo2000

2008-11-21, 11:17

Now imagine if Ami would have done the same to Taiga... Would it still be a laughing matter?

Sinestra

2008-11-21, 11:23

Now imagine if Ami would have done the same to Taiga... Would it still be a laughing matter?

Oh i would have laughed my ass off either way because it was creative. There were never any rules stated so technically what Taiga did was not cheating if Ami would have done the same thing I still would have laughed. Like I said work smarter not harder. The goal was to win there was nothing stated about how to win.

Darknemo2000

2008-11-21, 11:28

And then you would have a traumatized tiger for the rest of the season...

Sinestra

2008-11-21, 11:31

And then you would have a traumatized tiger for the rest of the season...

naw a couple of meat dishes of Ryu's home cooked meals would perk that Tiny Tiger right back up.:p

BetoJR

2008-11-21, 11:36

Somehow, I don't think it would... :D

KeitaroNagato

2008-11-21, 11:37

That sure moved faster than I thought, though I more or less expected the duel to be wrapped up by the end of the episode.

I always wondered what Minori sleeping with a pair of fake eyes drawn on her eyelids would look like, and boy did I crack up when I saw her with those.

They should have allowed Taiga to use her wooden blade to strip Ami-tan of her bikini, instead of just her bare hands. She'll look more menacing that way, as befitting of her name.

And Taiga finally acknowledges for feelings, sort of. It wasn't too bad an adaptation, considering how JC Staff chooses to significantly downplay the angst and jealousy between Taiga and Ryuji caused by the cliffhanger on episode 6 with Ami flirting with Ryuji.

A new insertion includes Minori showing how envious she is of Taiga, having Ryuji take care of her. That scene was supposed to be in volume 4 but got moved forward.

I agree with you. I started to read the lightnovels, and compare it to the anime. The stupid thing for me, I guess being a girl and all... the last moment in the novel when Taiga declare "RYUUJI IS MIIIIINE-----!!!!! NOBODY TOUCHES HIM-----!" , I was so emotionally moved that I was crying, sensing her heart and pain. When I watched this episode, I was surprised how they did a wonderful job at portraying that bit in the anime. Again, I started to cry when Taiga proclaim her true feelings for Ryuuji. *just thinking about it, I need to grab a box of tissue*

My brother watched this episode with me, and said "No wonder Toradora is so popular, it's like a "chick-flick" anime. I on the other hand like Kannagi, is more of a guy anime" I reply to him "Whatever, guys likes this too. Here watch the first episode..." So I pass him my memory stick, and he took off. A few hours later, he came in my room and hand it back. I asked him what he thought, and he simply answer "Not bad, I still like Kannagi, but definitely one of the top best. I'll give it 8 out of 10" Then he look at me with a menacing look... "LIAR!!!" I yell, and push him out of my room. I heard him walking away humming Toradora! ending song. I knew he likes it, even episode 8.

Overall, I believe this episode is the best, mostly because it was more emotional moving, and it sum up what Yasuko Takasu said "...But Ryuu-chan should be able to understand, right? ... Taiga-chan's
always like that... Not saying what she really means..."

Darknemo2000

2008-11-21, 11:44

KeitaroNagato

2008-11-21, 12:07

KeitaroNagato, why to call your brother liar?

I too think that Kannagi's anime is done much better than Toradora - in terms of artwork voice acting and directing. Toradora has better plot but again this comes from novels. There were the anime tries to go original it usually fails or at very least do not add anything to the plot itself.

I terms of artwork, I think Kannagi is better, but in terms of plot and story lines, Toradora delivers more. Maybe my brother is right, it is more a "chick-flick" anime, I guess thats why is so popular and gaining more attention. But... do guys like it too?

kir44n

2008-11-21, 12:21

Well, I don't know about everyone else here, but I'm a dude and I really like toradora O_o. I think I'll go out on a limb and make the assertion that most of us on this board are guys as well. I myself think Kannagi is...well, meh to be perfectly honest, but I love toradora.

Oh, and to your brother, Toradora isn't really chick-flick ish anime. For that, look at "Earl & Fairy" *shudder*. I can't really get into that myself.

houkoholic

2008-11-21, 13:37

Don't worry about Darknemo's opinion - it's been shown time and again that he's just annoyed that the anime is not a one-to-one map of the novel and criticizing that, despite everyone whom had NOT read the novel can pretty much attest to that the anime is perfectly standing on its own feet and is internally consistent piece of work. Comparing it to the novel is, frankly, pointless.

Also Kannagi's directing is actually sub-par, I do not call a show where it continously pushes otaku neta buttons which only otaku's can get "good directing" - eg. who gets the director joke if there wasn't line notes on the fansubs and/or that you weren't familiar with the whole Yamakan/Kyoani/Lucky Star/Kadokawa scandle (thus you've wasted too many hours of your life scavaging every piece of information on the intertubs)? Or the trivia otaku stuff that Akiba mutters (who even thinks Akiba is funny if you are not familiar with otaku knowledge or have a friend that is an otaku that you can relate to)? It's just pondering - in fact throwing in little otaku knowledge nuggets in a show that's not even a parody/satire comedy to see how big of an otaku you are is actually a sign of poor directing as you are relying on memes to carry the show, rather than the actual story or writing. Everything else, I can borrow Darknemo's exact reasoning here - just came from the manga (yes I read the Kannagi manga). Heck adapting from the panels of manga is actually EASIER than novels! Whereas in ToraDora, it IS a successful adaptation when people can get enjoyment from it as a standalone piece of work - THAT actually takes directing skill and people whom actually understands the work to decide on what is important to the story from the original novel and correctly adapt it to the screen. For a comparison, look at the Lord of the Ring movies, what would happen if they actually adopted the very first "adventures" of the hobbits as they leave their village and went through that forest? People would've either fell asleep or left the cinemas.

Vexx

2008-11-21, 13:45

I terms of artwork, I think Kannagi is better, but in terms of plot and story lines, Toradora delivers more. Maybe my brother is right, it is more a "chick-flick" anime, I guess thats why is so popular and gaining more attention. But... do guys like it too?

yes, guys like it, too... actually its written for a male audience if you believe the silly japanese industry labeling. One could argue that it has more appeal for more mature males or males more attuned to how people interact.

I like Kannagi mostly for the art and execution -- the director and his staff created some brilliant moments in the first few episodes. The plot itself is pretty simplistic but the voice acting (in particular Nagi's VA) are a treat to listen to. I'm less happy with the more frequent insertion of topical otaku gags which I doubt come from the manga (shades of Lucky*Star).

Toradora delivers much more complicated personalities - the art is not necessarily as fantastic but the story content and how these personalities interact are very compelling. That stems from the wealth of material available in the light novels.
Visual adaptations of novels are always taking a huge risk in alienating the novel readers. Using the houkoholic's LOTR example -- I'm a HUGE fan of the novels, have read them dozens of times since the 1970s. The liberties that Jackson took could easily have turned me completely off -- but as a standalone effort of "retelling a tale", I still feel about 80% of LOTR was brilliantly done.
Moby Dick is a "whale of a book" but the Gregory Peck movie adaptation while leaving out hours of critical moments from the book still is amazing to watch.

I suspect when I read the novel series for Toradora in its entirety I'll find many scenes and nuances that I wish would have been animated.
So it goes...

BigJimmy

2008-11-21, 13:49

Kannagi, a guy anime? Pfffft, for true man's anime you need Gurren Lagann!

I suppose that Toradora taps into the romantic side of men, while tickling the funny bone too. Well, maybe that's just me, but I guess I'm just a big softy under my brash exterior. :o

Tiran86

2008-11-21, 14:03

Now imagine if Ami would have done the same to Taiga... Would it still be a laughing matter?

I think that would have led to Taiga kicking Ami's ass.

I'm a guy and I like Toradora a lot more than Kannagi. Frankly, I haven't been impressed with Kannagi. I dropped it until the end of the season where I'll marathon it.

Darknemo2000

2008-11-21, 14:04

Pfffft, for true teenager's anime you need Gurren Lagann!

Fixed it for you.

I think that would have led to Taiga kicking Ami's ass.

Nope she would be busy weeping and feeling sorry for herself to be so exposed before everyones and Kitamura's eyes.

And houkoholic, how exactly my comment is about it not following novels? Specially when I am criticizing the part where it followed the novels without taking care about the changes they made in anime already.

Can you explain that?

Or are you again criticizing without reading, like you usually do?

Tiran86

2008-11-21, 14:10

Fixed it for.

Nope she would be busy weeping and feeling sorry for herself to be so exposed before everyones and Kitamura's eyes.

Hmm true, Kitamura was there. If he wasn't, I do think she'd react violently.

She would still pay Ami back though.

Shiroth

2008-11-21, 14:12

Fixed it for.
That really does show that you don't know what you're on about. :heh:

rg4619

2008-11-21, 14:19

Kannagi is a bit dull as a show - it's better as a manga, but in creating TV, the writers could've shortened or done away with some mundane bits. I also dislike the air of self-indulgence (that KyoAni jab) and shameless otaku referencing.

The Toradora anime possesses a brisk tempo that actually enhances a viewing experience. There's rarely any waste of time, and IMO, the humor hits even harder than the light novel translation I'm reading. As an adaptation, it certainly isn't complete in terms of source coverage (with mixed media marketing, I guess that's where new fans are urged to buy light novels), but the the selection and arrangement/timing of key developments has been exceptionally skillful.

Darknemo2000

2008-11-21, 14:24

Shiroth

2008-11-21, 14:30

Forgot to add 'you' in there. Anyways Gurren Lagann is far from being a 'true Man's' anime... 'True Man's' anime doesn't have to be about giant robots or fighting or whatever. Thats not what makes one a true man (if one can become a true man to begin with).

Spice and Wolf or Toradora is more true man's anime than Gurren.
I have so much to say against this, though it isn't the right thread so i'll just let it slide. All i will say is that you have the complete wrong impression of Gurren Lagann, and sound like the kind of person who comments about the mecha genre when they have no idea about it.

Darknemo2000

2008-11-21, 14:33

Actaully my favorite anime is Evangelion. So I can understand how annoying it is when poeple say "Eww it's mecha, must be paintless action anime!"

But Gurren Lagann is nothing exceptional at all from the bunch. Oh they did tried to make it more than just an action. But they never created something noteworthy out of it. Evangelion still remains Gainax best mecha anime as Gurren falls short.

Personally I didn't like the angel fights in Evangelion but what caught me were the characters and the symbolism behind that.

I like the characters and their relationship thats why I enjoy S&W, Toradora or Evangelion quite a bit.

But again, this is not the place to discuss it.

stormy001_M1A2

2008-11-21, 15:11

ToraDora! has good story to base on, Kannagi relies a lot on finesse and good technical skills to mask the simplistic story.

That's my take.

Vexx

2008-11-21, 15:22

I have so much to say against this, though it isn't the right thread so i'll just let it slide. All i will say is that you have the complete wrong impression of Gurren Lagann, and sound like the kind of person who comments about the mecha genre when they have no idea about it.

Gurren Lagann stood out a bit from "average mecha" -- as in the mecha itself were secondary to the story line (one reason I'm a fan of it versus some others) because it actually tries to address the confusion about "manliness" and what it really means (the contrast between Kamina and Simon). Evangelion, as well, wasn't "about" mecha as such. Its the difference between a 30 minute commercial for lines of "violent toys" and a deeper storyline about people. But I thoroughly "get" Darknemo's intent. Young males are often confused about "manliness" and "gar" ... what it actually means to be a mature male.

Spice&Wolf or Toradora! are apt examples and they're works I don't mind sharing with other men.

kir44n

2008-11-21, 15:33

How in the world did we get to the point of comparing Evangelion and Toradora O_o . Even if it started with Gurren Lagan, its a bizzare comparison to be made between very different shows.

In any case, Toradora is easily my favorite show of this season, though no small part of that will because Toradora will definitley have a happy end (versus, say, Chaos;head. Don't need precognition to know thats gonna end in a trainwreck) ^^

frubam

2008-11-21, 15:33

So..... does anyone know what a tyrol is? Some anime ref?

Shiroth

2008-11-21, 15:40

Gurren Lagann stood out a bit from "average mecha" -- as in the mecha itself were secondary to the story line
I've seen a lot of mecha shows, and it's basically always like that.

All i'm stating is that saying Gurren Lagann is just for teenagers is a load of bull. I respect what you've just said about the show Vexx, though it's hard to say that Darknemo won't even give the show a chance, let alone understand it's importance to the genre. I mean it's basically a show that's paying homage to 30 years of mecha.

Anyway i really didn't want to get this off-topic. I think just like Gurren Lagann, Toradora can be enjoyed by just about anyone. :)

Tiran86

2008-11-21, 16:29

So..... does anyone know what a tyrol is? Some anime ref?

Dunno. I just figured slang for yen or something since it was a bet. No idea how Tyrol translates to yen, but whatever.

Oxtail

2008-11-21, 16:35

In the novel they were using yen. I figured they changed it to an imaginary currency to discourage underaged gambling. :p

Vexx

2008-11-21, 16:47

"700 quatloos on the newcomers winning the duel!!" ... extra points for the reference.

Aye, along with Sudohbucks and such... they seem to have used imaginary currency ala matchsticks. Perhaps it converts to candy... :)

Zippicus

2008-11-21, 16:59

"700 quatloos on the newcomers winning the duel!!" ... extra points for the reference.

That's old school stuff there, one of my all time favorite shows :p

Some of the youngins here might get the reference via a Futurama episode, but then again maybe not.

typhonsentra

2008-11-21, 17:15

Goddamn, this topic is moving at a crazy pace. It's already close to being the largest episode discussion topic to date.

satuross

2008-11-21, 18:33

i definitely give this episode a 10/10

All the scenes i wanted to see in the novel came out, minori eyes, armored tiger, fast-swimming-tiger, sweet-ryuji's mum, gah....i want to give it an 11!

im very sure this anime series could attract many people to read the novels and the manga. im looking forward to finishing this series!

Haesslich

2008-11-21, 19:04

That's why i use "much times for things i do not enjoy".

I keeps my words through

If you want a show to get epic complaints about, I recommend Gundam 00 Second Season. Epic, epic flame threads there. The simplistic relationship development here's NOTHING compared to Soma x Hallelujah. Or Allelujah x Marie. Seriously, context is EVERYTHING when it comes to communication - and the context shown in the show is less... adverse than the Louise x Saito one from ZnT, whose infamous acrimony is the reason there's so much ZnT hate and why people (myself included) jumped on the "J.C. Staff fucks everything up by making it just like their Shakugan no Shana or Zero no Tsukaima, and have screwed up the characterization" bandwagon that's been accompanying ToraDora since episode 1 aired.

As for 'manly anime', I highly recommend Black Lagoon. So easy to share, and so like the way good action movies used to be with a bit more humor and thoughtfulness than the average shounen show. Or for men with a bit more emotional depth, Honey and Clover.

Tyabann

2008-11-21, 19:08

Wow Haess, you post here too?

KeitaroNagato

2008-11-21, 19:13

Goddamn, this topic is moving at a crazy pace. It's already close to being the largest episode discussion topic to date.

Hehehehe... It seems this episode is the best in all. I love it.

Vexx

2008-11-21, 19:26

It certainly closed up the "first semester arc" with a sort of bang with a many threads coming together. Next it looks like we'll get Round 2 in a "summer arc".

I've watched the episode several times now and will readily admit that even without having read the novels to this point it is clear this is a "highlights of" condensing of events - but that just makes me more interested in reading the novels I guess (and the manga).

I seriously don't want to know what Taiga meant with that seaweed line in the trailer preview -- but then dialog in those things is usually composed of bizarre non sequitur.

KeitaroNagato

2008-11-21, 19:30

yes, guys like it, too... actually its written for a male audience if you believe the silly japanese industry labeling. One could argue that it has more appeal for more mature males or males more attuned to how people interact.

Toradora delivers much more complicated personalities - the art is not necessarily as fantastic but the story content and how these personalities interact are very compelling. That stems from the wealth of material available in the light novels.
Visual adaptations of novels are always taking a huge risk in alienating the novel readers. Using the houkoholic's LOTR example -- I'm a HUGE fan of the novels, have read them dozens of times since the 1970s. The liberties that Jackson took could easily have turned me completely off -- but as a standalone effort of "retelling a tale", I still feel about 80% of LOTR was brilliantly done.
Moby Dick is a "whale of a book" but the Gregory Peck movie adaptation while leaving out hours of critical moments from the book still is amazing to watch.

I suspect when I read the novel series for Toradora in its entirety I'll find many scenes and nuances that I wish would have been animated.
So it goes...

I love how the story is pulling so far... it's getting more better. I cannot wait for the next episode. ^^

khryoleoz

2008-11-21, 19:44

Something about how this show is developing is rubbing me the wrong way. I have no sympathy at all for Taiga. I think her type is one of the worst out of which to make a lead character. Being an ill-tempered abuser, there's no way to connect with her even when she is vulnerable. I'm also getting sick of Rie Kugimiya playing these kinds of characters that are derivatives of the kind she played in Shana and Zero. Man, how I wish there was a TV series of Hoi Hoi-san instead where she would have been better used.

Vexx

2008-11-21, 19:52

Well, then perhaps you should read the earlier posts on the series to see if that adjusts your interpretation. There's a fair amount of discussion and analysis back there. I'm not going to repeat my posts on the subject other than to say many people dispute the 'derivative' assertion as a superficial analysis. I distinctly disliked both those anime series and the characters and don't see a close connection between them and Taiga outside of the "3 second description".

On a separate note relating to an earlier post I had made, I had assumed this was a seinen novel/manga/anime -- but it seems to have started as a shounen series o.O. The relationships seem quite a bit too complicated for that age demographic -- but I do notice that the manga chapters have moved into a seinen magazine now. Just another example of how those classifications aren't necessarily informative.

KeitaroNagato

2008-11-21, 20:00

I seriously don't want to know what Taiga meant with that seaweed line in the trailer preview -- but then dialog in those things is usually composed of bizarre non sequitur.

I wonder if its another Ryuuji side dish....mmmmm. :D

Every since I've been watching, I started to cook some Dashi dishes. Miso soup is so easy to make and good too :p

Hey, I just realized something... in this episode, this was the first time Ryuuji lost his temper. He is usually cool under pressure, I guess for all he have done for Taiga, she is not been honest on what she truly feels. It could be avoided if she just be frank with him.

Yet, at the end. She did act like a tiger protecting her injured mate against other. Then again telling everyone else in the Jonny's family restaurant that Ryuuji is "That's because Ryuuji is my dog", trying to hide again her true feelings what she really means. But at this point, Ryuuji knows already. I wonder what schemes Ami is up too already, when she whisper "Too bad I can't spend time with you alone... But, there's always a chance!" God ... its getting better and better. :)

Darknemo2000

2008-11-21, 20:33

ToraDora! has good story to base on, Kannagi relies a lot on finesse and good technical skills to mask the simplistic story.

That's my take.

I have to agree with you but that is what anime actually is, since the story, upon adaptation, is prepared for you so anime, to be good, has to work on presentation and directing skills to bring in as much of that story as possible into anime.

Kannagi anime did what it could do the best - showed good directing skills, good visualizations and voice acting, basically the presentation is very good. The manga story is so-so only and anime follows it, making it's plot not so very impressive.

Toradora's strength is obviously plot as it is based one of the current big light novel titles. Yet the part where the anime directing skills and presentation lies - it is not so impressive either. Sure it is not Zero No Tsukaima, thankfully directing skills go beyond the boob-jokes, but at the same time it still lacks the consistence upon following the changes it creates. The visuals are pretty good, but obviously not so good as Kannagi and while voice acting here is also solid - again Kannagi's is simply better.

Kannagis works on visuals but the presentation is what fully depend on anime, while the plot, though obviously is depending on directing skills, is still influenced mostly by the original source (unless the adaptation decide to change quite a few things).

Kannagi is a short-term popular so to say, simply because story is not it's strong part, and characters, though moe are not that impressive either.

So stormy, what do you call visuals to mask simplistic story - I would rather call doing what it can do best. Simplistic story was already determined by the manga (as long as they choose to follow it) so it did what it could do best upon presentation, and you have to admit it really does a good job.

Sure the latest episodes are not that strong as the first ones, but nevertheless Kannagi is definitely a good anime to follow this season.

Shiroth, I do understand that you are a Gurren fanboy/fangirl but I cannot see Gurren as an revolution in the genre. Or maybe I am getting too old to realize it's innovations (considering that Evangelion is still my favorite anime for more than 10 years it is obvious that I am rather conservative). It could be also that Evangelion fans do not like Gurren all that much too seeing it as nothing impressive (the opinions on evageeks and als seem to be rather similar in this aspect).

For me Shinji, Asuka, Rei, Akagi, Misato are much better/stronger characters than anyone from Gurren. Gurren really failed to impress me on the characters level first thats why for me this anime is not mature, but rather trying to look mature. But again we should not be discussing this in Toradora thread.

KeitaroNagato

2008-11-21, 21:05

Did anyone finished the third novel? I'm so mad they left alot in episode 8, but I guess its only natural. It would be more cool if the argument between Taiga and Ryuuji were more added in the this episode. Anyhow, Toradora! rocks. As far as I can see, not only in this forum, many others are non-stop talking about Toradora! I guess this episode really tops the anime show in general.

frubam

2008-11-21, 21:34

Toradora's strength is obviously plot as it is based one of the current big light novel titles. Yet the part where the anime directing skills and presentation lies - it is not so impressive either. Sure it is not Zero No Tsukaima, thankfully directing skills go beyond the boob-jokes, but at the same time it still lacks the consistence upon following the changes it creates. The visuals are pretty good, but obviously not so good as Kannagi and while voice acting here is also solid - again Kannagi's is simply better.

Now lets be fair here. You're comparing a manga-to-anime transition to a novel-to-anime transition. I haven't read the manga, nor watched the anime of Kannagi yet(I will soon :)), but obviously the detail of a manga isn't going to compare to the detail in a novel. From how you highly regard the Toradora novels, it's already as good as it can get, so any hope of you regarding the anime to be 'better' or 'as good' is lost. And I don't particularly blame you. I did the exact same thing in the Index thread (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=2043213#post2043213). The idealology that you think Kannagi is better stems from the fact that its merely better than its' average source material. Since it's adapted from a manga, its barely going to lose anything in its transition. In fact, you could say it can gain far more, since comedies are more amusing in motion and with voices. It has no abundance of intricate details, inner thoughts or monologues to transition to the anime, esp since its coming from a manga. Realistically, Toradora has no choice but to leave out details, be it important or not, since it's based on a novel that has all of those elements. To someone who's read the story already, knowing bits and pieces are left out, even if it was necessary, your obviously going to think that anything less than the full story isn't good enough. Thus I feel that its rather irrelevant for you to compare the two.

Darknemo2000

2008-11-21, 21:50

frubam it is not set in stone that a lot have to be left out even upon the novel adaptation.

Lets say Spice and Wolf did everything pretty well, changed few things but in general it was rather close to original novels.

Of course the pace was not ridiculous - 2 Volumes in 12 episodes. While Toaradora do 2 volumes in 4 episodes meaning that the pace is three times as fast and because of this a lot of stuff is left out.

One could say that you have to be faster in anime than in novels, in a sense, but again S&W proves that you can make it very enjoyable even at a slow pace. So for me it is regretful that they are doing everything in such fast pace.

On the other hand they will have to slow up a little, or else they will run out of novel material at episode 18-20, leaving 5-7 episodes to be only a fillers.

roan

2008-11-21, 21:55

About that. Evidentally, 11-13 (volume 5) will be taking up 3 episodes. If they continue with the 3 episode per volume pace, it should fit in nicely.

Darknemo2000

2008-11-21, 21:59

It is still faster as normal... But oh well, at least it is not a ZnT where one volume sometimes took only one episode if not less...

Myssa Rei

2008-11-21, 22:01

Shiroth, I do understand that you are a Gurren fanboy/fangirl but I cannot see Gurren as an revolution in the genre. Or maybe I am getting too old to realize it's innovations (considering that Evangelion is still my favorite anime for more than 10 years it is obvious that I am rather conservative). It could be also that Evangelion fans do not like Gurren all that much too seeing it as nothing impressive (the opinions on evageeks and als seem to be rather similar in this aspect).

I can't say I agree. I loved Gurren Lagann. However, it's different from how I also loved Evangelion (before finishing college, I was VERY active in the fan community too) all those years ago. Entertainment value isn't something that you can easily quantify, after all.

Moving back to the topic at hand... I felt that the episode stayed true to the spirit of its source materal. Note that I say here 'felt', as unlike another old hand (Haesslich) I've never read the novels. However, I've been the hobby long enough to recognize when a series is being faithful -- again, faithful in spirit if not completely accurate --and when its just pulling out scenarios out of its director's nether regions. It flowed right and the interactions weren't forced, meaning the experience was all-in-all enjoyable.

frubam

2008-11-21, 22:03

Of course the pace was not ridiculous - 2 Volumes in 12 episodes. While Toaradora do 2 volumes in 4 episodes meaning that the pace is three times as fast and because of this a lot of stuff is left out.

I'll just say this since i went off-topic to address this and leave it at that. You want to expand the content of the first 4 episodes(and content within) to 12 episodes? You really want to go through several episodes of the completely 'abusive' Taiga you deftly hate; the one who calls him a dog and actually means it because she thinks she's better than him? No thanks, I'll pass on that.

satuross

2008-11-21, 22:05

erm, i have no fetish for slow slice of life anime's.

anime's like toradora should be fast, i think the current pace is fine by me. afterall, within the next month we will all be able to find out what happens in the later volumes of the novel.

and as long as they dont be too accurate on each chapter, we viewers will still look out for the novel releases via baka tsuki

look at how SnW did too good in the anime? now they are skippin volume 1 and 2 of the light novel altogether. thats BAD

no BAD BAD
no... REALLY BAD
no....... REALLY BAD BAD
no.............. i mean, you get the point right nemo?

anyways ill always look forward for your releases @ baka tsuki and e-hent .

cheers~

HashiriyaR32

2008-11-21, 23:03

I swear that some of the time, Taiga's treating Ryuuji the same way Etna treats her Prinnies.

satuross

2008-11-21, 23:25

hoho, please dont put taiga at the same level of awesomeness as etna k :/

if taiga was the moon, etna's awesomeness would be something between the size of jupiter and saturn, if u get what i mean.
Anyways, i think her stings are mainly on her words (dog, slave, yadayada) rather then physically abusive.

yes, she sometimes pokes/kicks/slaps. but who wont want to if your friend in front of you is staring shamlessly at a waitress/ hit you with a broom first thing in the morning/ talk bad about your physique##

thats what i think anyways. ill probably be bombed for still being a newbie but.. hehe *runs away*

KeitaroNagato

2008-11-21, 23:42

Taiga... yea!!!

Taiga... yea!!!

Taiga... yea!!!

Doing my Minorin impression :D

therationalpi

2008-11-22, 03:33

Vexx

2008-11-22, 03:46

well, at the very least - she spent the majority of ep 8 stewing over her feelings. She actually tried to tell him that she was doing all this for him in the rain by the pool but the idiot :) kept interrupting her til she gave up and knocked the table over.

I could relate to that.... some of the more absurd arguments I've ever been in with my wife have been because me, the "baka buddha-head" kept interrupting with my own stupid-ass guesses like Ryuuji rather than just let her speak.

A lot of what Taiga *really* means is non-verbal and says it in her eyes while the mouth is flying in the other direction -- pretty much that is what Yacchan says pretty directly before she passes out. The poolside scene is pretty extreme emo --- but really pretty believable (sorry, work with too many teens and know that they're often pretty scrambled emotionally; stuff like that just burbles out sometimes).

I was fairly impressed with her directness at the ending diner scene. Still broken.... but the smiles show that Ryuuji and Taiga have some screwball understanding of each other for now.

Darknemo2000

2008-11-22, 04:02

A lot of people are saying that the momentum of the show was saying that Taiga didn't care about Ryuuji, so the thing at the pool was out of left-field. I disagree. If you ask me, Taiga is in serious denial about her feelings, and she's acting very consistently with that. She acts like she doesn't have any interest when it's unimportant, but when things get big, she can't deny it anymore.

That is to say, girl spending time with Ryuuji not worth it, girl making pass at Ryuuji not worth it, girl making serious attempt to snatch him away is worth challenging, Ryuuji is in trouble and you throw all of the lying to yourself out the window to help him. And just because she is in denial doesn't mean that her feelings are any less strong. If you think about it, she really cares more for Ryuuji than Kitamura, but she is willing to admit her feelings for Kitamura.

Actually if you are referring to my post, then I have to correct you - I never said she didnt had those feelings, they just were not so intense as at swimming pool, and because there is no longer episode gap between the scenes it is very hard to explain such big difference in intensity.

One could say that because pool scene was life threatening situation she let it all go, but the point is that in both scenes her possessiveness was targeted meaning that if she already harbored those feelings she should have made bigger issue from the Ami issue, but she didn't.

As I said the whole cliffhanger ending looks odd considering how easily it was forgotten. Thus it would have been better if director worked either on build-up better or edit the actual scene to be similar to the way Taiga acted in Ami scene (without such loud outburst).

SuperKnuckles

2008-11-22, 04:10

For me Shinji, Asuka, Rei, Akagi, Misato are much better/stronger characters than anyone from Gurren. Gurren really failed to impress me on the characters level first thats why for me this anime is not mature, but rather trying to look mature. But again we should not be discussing this in Toradora thread.

They definitely are 'deeper' at least on the surface and quite a bit more dour. But that's precisely the antithesis of what makes a Gurren Lagann fan prefer something that has a lighter view on the world's problems and characters that are easy to root for without getting entangled in their Freudian problems of existentialism and all their ugly psychological sides. To me, Evangelion was a great show, but it came out as pretty pretentious in its themery. Anno, to this day, grates on my nerves whenever he waxes philosophical about anime or Japanese fandom of anime in general. His attitude towards otakus in general is just plain offensive no matter how you slice it. That said, I COMPLETELY agree with Shiroth in that issue. You just don't need fatalism and dourness to be a 'serious' show. Just because a show aims to be a bit more family friendly like Gurren Lagann, it doesn't mean it's automatically a 'kiddie' show in comparison. It's like saying a Mario game is instinctively and forevere 'kiddie' compared to Grand Theft Auto. I don't think the way a show appeals to a demographic (even for Evangelion, which clearly went for the adult market head-on), is indicator of maturity of its viewers.

As for Toradora, it's just a cute, straight, tsundere-feature type of show. I don't see the need to put one anime over the other to like it. I like Toradora just the way it is. I don't know about other people, but I rather watch anime on their own merits unless the manga in question is that much better than the anime. Even with discrepancies like with Hajime no Ippo, Claymore, Berserk's adaptations, when judged on their own merits, they actually tends to stand pretty well in the midst of their peers. Even with shows that COMPLETELY goes off the track like Trigun, in the end people have come to call it a masterpiece or some other hyperbole due to its own merits and not because of how people compare it to something else (like its source).

Darknemo2000

2008-11-22, 04:21

SuperKnuckles, obviously you do not read Toradora novels if you think that Toradora is just a tsundere-feauture type of show.

In anime it is not so obvious but even here you can pick up the character dysfunctions. It is like ancient Greek comedy - it colors light something that is not that light at all. What later Camus in his "Myth of Sysiphus" called a theater of absurd.

Toradora is actually pretty deep if you know where to look at. Yes, anime has tuned down its level but it is there and

may become darker and more angst driven in the future. Don't be surprised if it happens.

Thats probably it about Gurren. For me what I enjoy the most are characters and their relationship, since in Gurren this part felt shallow compared to other shows like Evangelion or Texnolyze it gave me an impression taht the whole show is shallow and just attempts to be deeper but do not really have the means to do it.

AndI do know that lighter toned animes can still carry a deeper meaning. Toradora is one of those actually. But what made me be disappointed about Gurren is that the key-feature and core of what I imagine depth to be was missing in the show - characters.

Lol, and what makes you not like Anno, makes me like him a lot.

ddwkc

2008-11-22, 04:25

Damn, I lol'd hard at this scene:

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/5452/minorisleepvu2.jpg

Minori is full of win!

BigJimmy

2008-11-22, 04:42

Yeeesh, I make one comment about Gurren's manliness and it turns into a bitch-fest. Kamina would be turning in his grave!

Damn, I lol'd hard at this scene:

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/5452/minorisleepvu2.jpg

Minori is full of win!

Haha, I had to rewind that part a few times before it dawned on me what she was doing. Pure WTF? moment.

SuperKnuckles

2008-11-22, 06:39

Thats probably it about Gurren. For me what I enjoy the most are characters and their relationship, since in Gurren this part felt shallow compared to other shows like Evangelion or Texnolyze it gave me an impression taht the whole show is shallow and just attempts to be deeper but do not really have the means to do it.

AndI do know that lighter toned animes can still carry a deeper meaning. Toradora is one of those actually. But what made me be disappointed about Gurren is that the key-feature and core of what I imagine depth to be was missing in the show - characters.

Lol, and what makes you not like Anno, makes me like him a lot.

I think that's where you're misunderstanding something. For one, at least characters don't mope TOO much in Gurren. Also, it's pretty forward moving in terms of action and plot progression instead of sometimes getting stifled in the emotion like in Evangelion. Evangelion is still great for what it is, but it had the tendency to mope around to be passed as a 'deep' show. And the thing that grates on me with Anno isn't the 'deep' characters, but the way he nonchalantly waxes arrogance about it. Even then, I don't know how 'deep' you can even get with Eva characters when most of them fit the descriptor of a few words. Oedipus complex, father-complex, you name it. I think you're mistaking the seriousness that is portrayed as inherently serious and more mature when they are not necessarily the requirement for the other.

And I don't entirely disagree that Toradora has its share of deep characterizations. Hell, most romantic comedies nowadays have their share of them. Can't wait to see what makes Kushieda tick, for example. Also, I'm not entirely confident in JC Staff of converting novels/manga to anime anyway. But at least they got the basics of it right with this one. I think from what we've seen so far, I think it gets the message of each episode right. Even for a studio that tends to fumble with conversions quite a bit, I don't have that much bad to say about it here. I do think light novel conversions are a bit more tricky than usual. Sorta like in Kurenai for example, because with visualizing a novel, everyone has their own take on it. Including the director of an anime's.

Damn, I lol'd hard at this scene:

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/5452/minorisleepvu2.jpg

Minori is full of win!

How very... 90's anime-ish.:heh:

KeitaroNagato

2008-11-22, 07:56

Damn, I lol'd hard at this scene:

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/5452/minorisleepvu2.jpg

Minori is full of win!

ddwkc... I'll trust you with Taiga in my sleep. :D

I'm still doing my Mirorin impression. Its driving my brother up the wall, specially when I sing offbeat tunes of whatever comes to mind . hehehehehe.

Mushi

2008-11-22, 09:27

This one totally cracked me up.

http://i511.photobucket.com/albums/s352/mushianime/4t--z/toradora/Toradora08_Taiga_01.jpg

I love odd, little surprises like that.

Excellent episode! Wonderful development between Taiga and Ryuuji. After the hate I was feeling for Ami from last episode, this was the perfect antidote. So glad to see her getting something she deserved after her phony parading around in her bikini. Taiga's "strategy" was great. :heh: Even if she did get distracted and lose. But then, I pretty much expected that the summer at Ami's place would turn into a group thing, and that had to be set up somehow.

kir44n

2008-11-22, 09:30

This one totally cracked me up.

http://i511.photobucket.com/albums/s352/mushianime/4t--z/toradora/Toradora08_Taiga_01.jpg

It's moments like these, and Minorin's quirks that make show truly memorable. Though I think everyone died alittle inside (from laughter) when Ryuuji asked her what she thought about Ami XD

Darknemo2000

2008-11-22, 11:07

Even then, I don't know how 'deep' you can even get with Eva characters when most of them fit the descriptor of a few words. Oedipus complex, father-complex, you name it. I think you're mistaking the seriousness that is portrayed as inherently serious and more mature when they are not necessarily the requirement for the other.

Actually I was thinking more in the lines of three forms of Kierkegaard's fear conception that Anno clearly aimed at (he even named one episode following Kierkegaard's 'Sickness onto Death'). The characters have rather modern i
interpretations of philosophy, psychology and some of Baudrillard's sociology character conceptions (at that time it was still new mind you). The characters are much more than just few psychological descriptions that you just named. Thats why it is hard to surpass Evangelion characters as they have many layers - psychological is only one of them (not all characters of course but the main ones).

Now, don't get me wrong I too think that JC Staff no matter how i dislike this studio is doing a pretty good job so far, even if I dislike their pacing. You can always watch ZnT to see what bad work of JC Staff means. Toradora is not that. But I would like them being more consistent about the changes they make.

Vexx

2008-11-22, 15:41

Blergh... I was really rather unhappy with Paradym's translation this time. Time to re-review translation efforts...

stormy001_M1A2

2008-11-22, 15:51

Perhaps you should wait for qq, Vex? I think qq is the best of bunch.

Vexx

2008-11-22, 16:00

Only if they don't "rub a dub dub" -- "itadakimasu" :) yeah, they're on the review list.

Molenir

2008-11-22, 16:14

Yeah, that Rub a dub dub was what sent me looking for a different group.

frubam

2008-11-22, 16:23

lol, 'rub a dub dub" :heh: :heh: That is just TOO FUNNY! Oh god, where do they come up with this stuff :heh:?

Vexx

2008-11-22, 16:48

Apparently out of their ass ... labeled parodies are fine and certain liberties that further the spirit of the comment (aka, "no... f***ing... way!") are tolerable, but when you start inserting things "that were never there" ... well, my interest in their work plummeted.

On qq: what is the size resolution and format of their releases (h264? softsub?)? Do they plan on backfilling eps 1-4?
edit: edit -- -never mind, figured it out on my own..... only questions is will he rerelease eps 1-4 under the "qq" brand (with fixes).

Tyabann

2008-11-22, 18:18

I know I've seen that translation of "itadakimasu" before... either in a dub or in some cheap fansub.

ddwkc

2008-11-22, 20:02

Blergh... I was really rather unhappy with Paradym's translation this time. Time to re-review translation efforts...

Yeah. They mistranslated "vale tudo" as "anything" when it's actually means "a combat where everything is allowed":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vale_tudo

KeitaroNagato

2008-11-22, 20:29

Damn, I lol'd hard at this scene:

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/5452/minorisleepvu2.jpg

Minori is full of win!

I just laugh at this LOL....

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u184/SharonMustLive/testing2.gif

Peanutbutter

2008-11-22, 20:37

Yeah, that Rub a dub dub was what sent me looking for a different group.

As long as I don't see anymore of that, I'm fine with it. I'm basically closing one eye.

Samatarou

2008-11-22, 23:56

suguru

2008-11-22, 23:59

I'm not sure if anyone noted this, but the music played at the start of Taiga's training (05:50 onwards) sounds like it's based on the Chariots of Fire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariots_of_fire) theme tune by Vangelis.

Yep, I was thinking the same thing, it did sound pretty close--although it would have been awesome if they'd been able to use the actual music. I wonder if Chariots of Fire did well in Japan...

Vexx

2008-11-23, 00:08

aye, the music riff and the scene design all evoked "chariots of fire" training... the only thing it lacked was "slow motion" :)

SuperKnuckles

2008-11-23, 05:36

Yep, I was thinking the same thing, it did sound pretty close--although it would have been awesome if they'd been able to use the actual music. I wonder if Chariots of Fire did well in Japan...

Hehe. I noted that a few pages back. Between this and others like it (the Flash Gordon theme music remix in Macademi WAsshoi for example), there's quite a few movie-theme soundalikes in anime recently.

As for Vale Tudo.... they didn't need to translate that. It'd be like translating Karate as 'Empty Hand". :heh:

Actually I was thinking more in the lines of three forms of Kierkegaard's fear conception that Anno clearly aimed at (he even named one episode following Kierkegaard's 'Sickness onto Death'). The characters have rather modern i
interpretations of philosophy, psychology and some of Baudrillard's sociology character conceptions (at that time it was still new mind you). The characters are much more than just few psychological descriptions that you just named. Thats why it is hard to surpass Evangelion characters as they have many layers - psychological is only one of them (not all characters of course but the main ones).

Yeah, all that is quite true actually. The only thing that gets me with Anno is how he plainly bashes anything that doesn't have quite the aim of something like Evangelion. Modern shows like Xam'd, Ghost in the Shell, Mushishi and others do put more of a focus on characters with many layers of inspiration and psychology, but I think it's a bit silly to put it under only one microscope when so many anime go for different things. In that sense, I don't think a direct comparison of Gurren and Eva really works. Like how you can't exactly compare Macross to Gundam. Their entire aim of the storytelling is different in the end, even if they may be thematically similar (ROBOTS).

Now, don't get me wrong I too think that JC Staff no matter how i dislike this studio is doing a pretty good job so far, even if I dislike their pacing. You can always watch ZnT to see what bad work of JC Staff means. Toradora is not that. But I would like them being more consistent about the changes they make.

At the very least, hopefully they won't totally drop the ball when the essential scenes happen. Which could seemingly happen any time with JC Staff. My optimism for this show isn't exactly unfettered.

Liddo-kun

2008-11-23, 06:20

It seems Taiga has already realized that she likes Ryuuji, but it's too bad Ryuuji still likes Minori.

I'm surprised a little, it's just episode 8 but the drama is already on a high level.

BigJimmy

2008-11-23, 06:27

Yep, I was thinking the same thing, it did sound pretty close--although it would have been awesome if they'd been able to use the actual music. I wonder if Chariots of Fire did well in Japan...

They should've used this music (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DlGM3bYteow) :D

As to the whole Gurran vs Eva thing, I always found Eva to be a bit too depressing for my tastes. It's like the anime version of a Cure album! Sure, it's deep and complex and all that jazz, but at the end of the day it's message seemed to be "You're screwed, so's everyone else, nothing you do matters, time to break out the razor blades!" I suppose it didn't help that End of Evangelion was a big "Up yours!" from ol' Anno. :twitch:

Darknemo2000

2008-11-23, 07:48

BigJimmy, nah I like the original music better.

As for Evangelion I actually found that the meaning is not to be depressing but to be hopeful of a new start, no matter how sick or revolting it may look like. It is the mix of hope and tragedy that made Evangelion ending very beautiful and touching. And the fictnal message I got "As long as you believe in your Self you can always exist, no matter what the odds are. You just have to accept that it is no dream world and you will be hurt and you will be lonely but this is the core of being human and this is what makes humans so ugly and yet so beautiful." I found the End of Evangelion to be a pure beauty.

KeitaroNagato

2008-11-23, 09:01

It seems Taiga has already realized that she likes Ryuuji, but it's too bad Ryuuji still likes Minori.

I'm surprised a little, it's just episode 8 but the drama is already on a high level.

At the end, even at Sudohbucks (I love that Sudohbucks, imitation of Starbucks ^^ ), Taiga telling Ami she is going because its her duty to make sure her dog (Ryuuji) don't be messing around. At this point, Ryuuji finally understand Taiga more then most people, because what she says it not what she means, and I guess Taiga realized Ryuuji is understanding her better, when she gave a "look of approval" to him before everyone else went off to give a date for the summer Villa at the chiguagua place :D

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u184/SharonMustLive/Capture_037.jpg

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u184/SharonMustLive/Capture_039.jpg

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u184/SharonMustLive/Capture_040.jpg

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u184/SharonMustLive/Capture_041.jpg

It seem now Taiga is also happy that Ryuuji is finally getting to know her. I wonder how the next episode is gonna play out ^^

satuross

2008-11-23, 09:21

actually that smile is

----->Taiga looked coldly down towards Ryuuji as she did to the rest of the world, her rosy lips which had turned people's lives upside down smiled evilly.

typhonsentra

2008-11-23, 09:36

All your captures are half-green.

KeitaroNagato

2008-11-23, 09:37

actually that smile is

----->Taiga looked coldly down towards Ryuuji as she did to the rest of the world, her rosy lips which had turned people's lives upside down smiled evilly.

:D

I still believe that she is happy that Ryuuji is knowing her better. Just say its a female intuition ^^

KeitaroNagato

2008-11-23, 09:41

All your captures are half-green.

I'm not sure why... kume

I'm using the new Nero 9, it turns out to be like that, I'll ask my brother to check it out. I bet he is going to laugh at me.... sign

Hey that last caption with Taiga, is it possible I could do a banner with "Ryuuji my secret love" hehehehe

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u184/SharonMustLive/Capture_041.jpg

Vexx has a cool one ^^

Darknemo2000

2008-11-23, 10:40

actually that smile is

----->Taiga looked coldly down towards Ryuuji as she did to the rest of the world, her rosy lips which had turned people's lives upside down smiled evilly.

You ahve to admit that anime did not portray it evil. They probably want it to look evil, but failed i think. Due to position of her eyes it doesnt look evil and one could think it is an approving soft smile instead of evil one.

satuross

2008-11-23, 10:50

because if taiga had evil eyes...what would ryuuji be left with..............

Caster13

2008-11-23, 11:50

----->Taiga looked coldly down towards Ryuuji as she did to the rest of the world, her rosy lips which had turned people's lives upside down smiled evilly.

Is that a translation from the light novels?

I'd say it's a smug or a haughtily amused smile myself, one holding a selfish intent.

It made me smile myself though.

KeitaroNagato

2008-11-23, 11:56

because if taiga had evil eyes...what would ryuuji be left with..............

The anime is totally different then the lightnovels. It an interpretation, just like Batman comics to the Movies. It's standing on its own. Thats why is the talk online . hehehehe (doing my Mirorin impression) :D

satuross

2008-11-23, 15:30

well, i must say I really love the impressions in the anime. almost everything i wanted to SEE in the light novels are portrayed exactly how i would like them to look like in the anime like

ami's smile
ami's second face
minorin X
minorin sleeping
minoring "the sun is dry" + yuusaku tag
crying+howling taiga
clean-em-up-mode ryuji
SMILING RYUJI <--yeshhh

Samatarou

2008-11-23, 18:55

... Is this the screenshot you were trying to get?
http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/2896/capture041cz2.jpg

SkoolRumble4Ya

2008-11-23, 19:00

I give this episode a 10 since it was funny and also Taiga when she said Ryuji is mine. I guess they are going to go to Ami villa which should be hilarious.

Tabris

2008-11-23, 19:24

The episode was worth it for Minori drawing eyes on her eyelids.

She is amazing haha

Nukerjsr

2008-11-23, 20:45

Am I the only one who was seriously irritated by the students? I just fear for this kind of crap from later chapters, if they start to try to push Taiga and Ryuuji together.

I can see why a lot of controversy is coming from this Episode. It's great because now we can finally clarify that Taiga does really care for Ryuuji. However, this means we may have to go through more of the same-old-same-old Tsundere insecurity to get out a confession why Minori, Ami, and Yusaku just sit there on the bench.

Bennyswan

2008-11-23, 21:15

late post but I laughed with Minori's drawn on eyes.

9/10 for me! =]

Tyabann

2008-11-23, 22:09

However, this means we may have to go through more of the same-old-same-old Tsundere insecurity to get out a confession why Minori, Ami, and Yusaku just sit there on the bench.

From what I understand, the novels do focus on the other characters, not just Taiga and Ryuuji.

I don't think she's quite as tsundere about it either, but I'm not totally sure.

KeitaroNagato

2008-11-23, 23:15

Is this the screenshot you were trying to get?
http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/2896/capture041cz2.jpg

That is so amazing !!!

Thank you, domo arigato ^^

Just to say, I dont think Taiga is a tsundere character, she is just violently crazy. I think about Naru Narusegawa of Love Hina, somewhat Asuna Kagurazaka of Negima, and Akane Tendo from Ranma.

Tyabann

2008-11-24, 00:56

...She's totally a tsundere. Just that she's tsun towards Ryuuji and dere towards Kitamura.

This will probably change eventually.

MaiHikari

2008-11-24, 02:54

I love the turn of events in this episode. Could it be the beginning of romantic developments between Taiga & Ryuuji? Hehe. I find their concern for each other very endearing. Good materials to head into the summer vacation.

BTW, I don't think Taiga is tsundere, primarily cuz she's not outspoken enough to be considered tsundere. She's just a bully--a big bad bully (minus the "big" part). It's very slick and sneaky when she stripped Ami of her bikini to get a good headstart in the competition. Go TAIGA!

Darknemo2000

2008-11-24, 05:56

She is a tsundere. You don't have to be outspoken to be tsundere. Eriko from Kimikiss also is considered to be tsundere though she is far from being outspoken or loud. She just treats the main character both harsh (tsun) and sweet (dere). It's enough for you to act both dere and tsun to be a tsundere...

However it is also needed that both tsun and dere would be part of the same relationship (with the same person(s)). Since Taiga for majority of time was treating Ryuuji badly (tsun) without giving any dere moments to him she wasn't a real tsundere up to this point. Yet with episode 8 she can be considered a full-blown tsundere.

But because of later popularity of the term now tsundere definition became so wide so that now almost any stronger female character can fall into this definition.

frubam

2008-11-24, 07:39

its more like she's dere toward Kita and Minorin, and tsun to everyone else, not just Ryu

taiga_tiger!

2008-11-24, 07:46

"..no one touches him! ryuuji is mine!!!:mad:"

LOL

taiga_tiger!

2008-11-24, 08:11

..i'm so excited..episode 9 is coming..villa, villa, VILLA!!! yayY!:D

KeitaroNagato

2008-11-24, 08:24

..i'm so excited..episode 9 is coming..villa, villa, VILLA!!! yayY!:D

we are at the villa ye ye yea!!!

we are at the villa ye ye yea!!!

we are at the villa ye ye yea!!!

we are at the villa ye ye yea!!!

Doing my Mirorin impression :)

Is this the screenshot you were trying to get?
http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/2896/capture041cz2.jpg

Samatarou - Domo Arigato.

Do u know how to make this picture smaller, so it could be like a signature?

:) :) :)

From what I understand, the novels do focus on the other characters, not just Taiga and Ryuuji.

I don't think she's quite as tsundere about it either, but I'm not totally sure.

I always thought "Tsundere", was a strong female that is undecided about her true feelings towards the other person.

...She's totally a tsundere. Just that she's tsun towards Ryuuji and dere towards Kitamura.

This will probably change eventually.

I believe so, but Taiga is more of a person that also have a double side like Ami-chan. With Kitamura she totally different then with Ryuuji. Mirorin she is more relax, lay back... er... I think she is that way with Ryuuji. It's feel like she enjoy making the class feel afraid, and others that are not consider "close" to her.

I love the turn of events in this episode. Could it be the beginning of romantic developments between Taiga & Ryuuji? Hehe. I find their concern for each other very endearing. Good materials to head into the summer vacation.

BTW, I don't think Taiga is tsundere, primarily cuz she's not outspoken enough to be considered tsundere. She's just a bully--a big bad bully (minus the "big" part). It's very slick and sneaky when she stripped Ami of her bikini to get a good headstart in the competition. Go TAIGA!

:). Like that answer ^^

She is a tsundere. You don't have to be outspoken to be tsundere. Eriko from Kimikiss also is considered to be tsundere though she is far from being outspoken or loud. She just treats the main character both harsh (tsun) and sweet (dere). It's enough for you to act both dere and tsun to be a tsundere...

However it is also needed that both tsun and dere would be part of the same relationship (with the same person(s)). Since Taiga for majority of time was treating Ryuuji badly (tsun) without giving any dere moments to him she wasn't a real tsundere up to this point. Yet with episode 8 she can be considered a full-blown tsundere.

But because of later popularity of the term now tsundere definition became so wide so that now almost any stronger female character can fall into this definition.

Usually tsundere character are indecisive about how they feel towards the other person they love. Yet in Taiga, she is not an indecisive type, she does love Ryuuji, remember the incident at the pool after they pull Ryuuji out, how she reacted when she saw Ami-chan and Ryuuji after the stalker incident. Whatever Taiga says or meant, is the opposite on what she truly feels. She does not want to communicate about her true feelings, yet at the end of episode it seems she is glad that Ryuuji finally understand her a bit.

"..no one touches him! ryuuji is mine!!!:mad:"

LOL

poke.... ryuuji, and runs away. :)

BigJimmy

2008-11-24, 10:55

Is this the screenshot you were trying to get?
http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/2896/capture041cz2.jpg

Now put "Exactly as planned" on there, and we're golden. :D

Tyabann

2008-11-24, 11:03

I always thought "Tsundere", was a strong female that is undecided about her true feelings towards the other person.

Nope. Very specific moe archetype that practically all of Rie Kugimiya's characters fall into.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Tsundere

typhonsentra

2008-11-24, 11:05

This is probably my most re-watched episode so far too. So many great funny scenes and there's a lot of small details in some of the conversations you may or may not catch on the first view, the one in the rain in particular. I also love that shot where it's Taiga FPS and Ryuuji dangles the food in front of her eyes. Very nice scene direction.

msuwildog80

2008-11-24, 11:12

I love this episode as well.

Expecially since the translator beat it by a few days and got the anticipation up! By being able to see how the novel works, I have to agree that the anime is doing a fantastic job. As much as I would love a 12 episode series covering 2 novels...

I would much rather have what we have now, so that all the material will be covered.

And yay! Volume 4 coming up, cant wait.

Lugia_yao

2008-11-24, 12:39

Taiga is mine!
Kugimia is mine!

Vexx

2008-11-24, 12:39

Darknemo2000

2008-11-24, 12:44

But elbelling is for purpose of being helpful as well. Without labels you would not be able to understand what this or that is about in short.

Yes labels do rarely totally match, but they do help to give out a short-information for you to pick, so I view labels as useful.

Lugia_yao

2008-11-24, 12:52

well, a "pure" tsundere character is no more popular these days
need multiple elements

Vexx

2008-11-24, 12:55

Only if everyone has the *same* understanding of a label... I could easily pull you into a several page argument over what "loli" means. The "tv tropes" description of tsundere is quite different than the Wiki version. Any given two japanese otaku could spend an hour arguing over the nuances of the term.

Just because you might be Lithuanian doesn't mean you're going to fit whatever stereotype your neighboring countries have of you. :)

So its only useful as a starting point as a cardboard figure archetype --- the kind you have to mention when writing academic essays on literature ("Christ metaphors", etc).

The more "tsunderes" I gather in a room, the harder it is to say there's a single "thing" as a tsundere.

Darknemo2000

2008-11-24, 13:38

You can improve the understand by the focused and clear description. Something that Tsundere word is lacking, though the core principle still remains - the interaction between dere and tsun.

If you hear word tsundere you know that this someone cannot be a silent shy girl devotionally loving and never saying a word against.

It is rough and allmots all tsundere's do not match the lebel in one or the other aspect but it really helps to deal with the amount of information when you lack of time or when you have too much information to deal with.

Thats the purpose of labels - to help to adopt the situation better, faster, even iof you do not have a 'deep' understanding of the situation.

In this case term tsundere is useful even if a meaning that you put to a word is different from the other it cannot be a total opposite.

BetoJR

2008-11-24, 13:52

I find labeling to be a very poor mark of character. Sometimes, we resort to it, in order to over simplify our impressions. In sum, I neither like nor condone it. In regards to works of fiction, it is pandering to the lowest common denominator. In real life, it's cause for horrible fights.

BigJimmy

2008-11-24, 14:19

The more "tsunderes" I gather in a room, the harder it is to say there's a single "thing" as a tsundere.

The inevitable epic bitch fight that would break out with all those tsunderes in one room would make for some great viewing though ;)

Tyabann

2008-11-24, 15:22

Other than using the term as a checkpoint - it is somewhat pointless to try and *label* characters -- it is just trying to squeeze more complicated characters into simple boxes.

I disagree. Unlike people in real life, fictional character are infinitely less complex and therefore often benefit from having a label, as a basis for character growth.

Of course, characters that do not fit into neat little boxes are awesome, but few writers are actually skilled enough or confident enough with their skill to create such a character.

Also, I do think that a character growing out of the box is a mark of excellent writing, even if the creator started by using said box for the character. Like, you know, what I've heard that Toradora does.

...I hope the novels are translated faster.

Lastly, as I have said before, Shiraishi's rant kind of ignores the fact that language has a tendency to mutate like that.

I find labeling to be a very poor mark of character. Sometimes, we resort to it, in order to over simplify our impressions. In sum, I neither like nor condone it. In regards to works of fiction, it is pandering to the lowest common denominator. In real life, it's cause for horrible fights.

See above.

The inevitable epic bitch fight that would break out with all those tsunderes in one room would make for some great viewing though ;)

I do agree. Best catfight ever.

Darknemo2000

2008-11-24, 15:28

BetoJR, labels or steroetypes are unavoidable there isn't a single person without a stereotype as long as he is part of human socium.

They may be the cause of conflicts but they also help in everyday functions. A lot of stereotypes exist without us even knowing that they are steroetypes and so on.

Labelling and steroetype are a helpful mean to survive in information society and we all have them, some more obvious, some hiden ones but you would not be able to function in society without them. There are quite a few good sociology books regarding this theme. Baudrillard may be too extreme but Gadamer and his direction specialists give a pretty good analysis of it.

Yet the label should only help to find a direction isntead of being a form and purpose. Then we are reaching an extreme but as long as we keep a healthy medium it is fine.

If we are talking about anime then as Kaisos Erranon mentioned a lot of characters are even more simplistic than real life humans. yes there are deep ones but they are constructed artificially thus a stereotype was the first start of it, the basis then the author creates situation to make a character break out of the box. While talking of that character and using a lebell we put it back into a box but thats only for information purposes. A sort of direction giver.

kir44n

2008-11-24, 16:05

BetoJR

2008-11-24, 17:20

Well, as pertains the facilities provided by stereotyping, I'll leave each of you to your own ideas. I've stated my piece, and even when doing so, I'm not out to force it on anyone - and this is hardly the place for such a discussion, anyway. :heh:

So, let's all agree to disagree and move on, shall we?

Samatarou

2008-11-24, 17:38

Samatarou - Domo Arigato.
Do u know how to make this picture smaller, so it could be like a signature?
(Response to that bit moved to sig request thread)

Returning to the discussion, on the tsundere thing, I'm in the camp that doesn't think of Taiga as tsundere, but rather as someone who's emotionally out of control with her wild mood swings. I just don't see her as the same character type as people like Kagami or Naru Narusegawa, she's too psychotic and random. I also agree with MaiHikari that a tsundere should be more verbal in their tsun'ing and not just bully people.

Beo

2008-11-24, 19:48

She sounds like my sister. She grew up with three boy's and learned early on to defend herself. It's like we beat-up on her, we just got into rowdy wrestling matches over stupid things and she got dragged into them.

Darknemo2000

2008-11-24, 20:32

Samatarou, Asuka from Evangelion is also considered a tsundere (in fact I remember the times when tsundere term was not as popular as it is now and when evangelion was on its peak, it was even used a 'term' 'Asuka-like' to describe tsunderes) and you cannot say that she is not psychotic.

A lot of tsundere's are actually psychotic and have troubles to control their mood swings just like Taiga so for me it looks like from this aspect Taiga is still a tsundere. As if both happen in a same relationship then a character is considered a tsundere be she/he loud or silent cold. Probably because of this we see so many characters labeled as tsundere.

Lately some started questioning Asuka being a tsundere due to the lack of her dere moments with Shinji (there are very little of those) something similar is with Taiga and Ryuuji one moment of niceness (or anger) doesnt mean that a character keep acting like that for continuous period of time. taiga could be a bitch who just had one moment of weakness through the whole series for example. The tsun and dere should be part of a relationship.

In fact Taiga and Asuka are rather similar in a sense that both are damaged by their childhood (Though Taiga is significantly less and much more sane than Asuka) and have uncontrollable mood swings, and are hard to predict.

Asuka's difference is from Taiga's (if we ignore the most obvious difference is that Asuka's character reaches to the core of human existence as such through philosophy) that she like Ami also plays double games and puts a 'nice-girl' mask on as she wants people to prise her so she could find a reason to exist.

I suppose Asuka is what you get when you mix Ami with Taiga...or if we talk chronologically... Ami and Taiga is what you get when you split Asuka's personality up.

kir44n

2008-11-24, 21:00

Hmm, it is interesting that if you take two of Asuka's major characteristics and seperate them, you would get Ami & Taiga. Of course, this implies Asuka has twice the problems as Ami or Taiga ^^

Back onto Tsundere in any case, the Tsundere category is extremely broad in its spectrum if you include some of the most memorable recent examples. Some fit a certain mold well (Taiga, Louise, Shana), others are rather different (Asuka, Kallen). All have been called Tsundere, but have varying degrees of personal trauma, physical capabilities and other side traits.

Tyabann

2008-11-24, 21:05

Kallen is nowhere near a tsundere. That's just people trying to stick a label on her.

She just isn't given enough focus in the series for it to really be apparent anyway.

Also, Lulu died. Creator said so.

KeitaroNagato

2008-11-24, 21:09

I like how this thread has turned into an analysis on the social phenomenon of human stereotyping, how it pertains to literature and media, as well as how this phenomenon changes & morphs over time.

In any event, Toradora is interesting in that it has multifaceted characters, and deals with certain things in a slightly different style than one has already come to expect. For instance, I expected Taiga to have her crush on Kitamura unknown to him for at least half the season. When she confessed to him by the second episode, my expectations for the show were completely blown out of the water, and I had no idea how to possibly gauge how future events may play out.

The classic example I always thought of tsundere character is Akane from Ranma. We all know and what to expect from Akane. A current modern tsundere character as we all known is Naru from Love Hina, her personality and what we understand from her character is straightforward. The problem with Taiga, she is so multilayer character, it's hard to actually state her as a tsundere, even though she does have some tsundere personality. But, she also have sweet (maybe a dere towards Ryuuji at times too) personality when she and Ryuuji stay up all night, during the time Ryuuji was "enchancing" her swinsuit. Since Toradora is a character driven anime, Taiga is not your typical tsundere character, even thou she has that trait, but it's so lame, that we do not expect what will happen next with her.

Well, as pertains the facilities provided by stereotyping, I'll leave each of you to your own ideas. I've stated my piece, and even when doing so, I'm not out to force it on anyone - and this is hardly the place for such a discussion, anyway. :heh:

So, let's all agree to disagree and move on, shall we?

Yea... yea... yea..., we are going to move forward, la la la. Doing my Mirorin impression again :)

(Response to that bit moved to sig request thread)

Returning to the discussion, on the tsundere thing, I'm in the camp that doesn't think of Taiga as tsundere, but rather as someone who's emotionally out of control with her wild mood swings. I just don't see her as the same character type as people like Kagami or Naru Narusegawa, she's too psychotic and random. I also agree with MaiHikari that a tsundere should be more verbal in their tsun'ing and not just bully people.

I couldnt have said it better then myself, I totally agree. Taiga is a more complex character then the typical tsundere type.

I find labeling to be a very poor mark of character. Sometimes, we resort to it, in order to over simplify our impressions. In sum, I neither like nor condone it. In regards to works of fiction, it is pandering to the lowest common denominator. In real life, it's cause for horrible fights.

Meow!!! meow!!! Pfffff!!! Pfffff!!!! :) :) :)

Darknemo2000

2008-11-24, 21:54

Actually Shana or Louise are just as much unpredictable as Taiga is. You know what happens in ZnT volume 9, but I doubt you could have predicted for Louise to act that way.

Taiga can be predictable at some patterns as well - involve Kitamura - dere dere guaranteed, involve Ami - tsun tsun is what you'll see. Involve Ryuuji - tsun tsun for the most and sometimes dere. Louise is the same as her dere moments are like Taiga's, hard to predict actually.

Taiga's actions are not that hard to predict when we compare her to such characters like Haruhi or Horo/ Those are the characters that are hard to predict. Taiga in this case is not too far from your normal tsundere's that she does have an acting pattern which she does tend to follow for the most part. her scream was random but again this is more connected with poor build-up rather than a trait of her character since so far she was following her acting pattern rather closely.

KeitaroNagato

2008-11-24, 22:13

tsundere has an original specific meaning that really only eroge software games can emulate (where the term originated). Anime adaptations have to deal with more of the realities of multi-layered characters and when the source material is a light novel or manga .... the author is usually trying to develope a more complex character than a classic tsundere. One of the Shiriashi rants in Lucky*Star addressed this morphing of the word directly.

Other than using the term as a checkpoint - it is somewhat pointless to try and *label* characters -- it is just trying to squeeze more complicated characters into simple boxes.

But elbelling is for purpose of being helpful as well. Without labels you would not be able to understand what this or that is about in short.

Yes labels do rarely totally match, but they do help to give out a short-information for you to pick, so I view labels as useful.

well, a "pure" tsundere character is no more popular these days
need multiple elements

I really like Darknemo2000 details, yet we all have to agree that Taiga is more complex person then the usual tsundere character. Labeling her as one type, does not fit her personality in general. Its like saying Ryuuji in the beginning was expected to be the "soft" character, while in this episode he did got mad/pissed at Taiga, which shows a complex person with multilayer traits as well. In this episode, we cannot even compare Ryuuji as the usual protagonist character at this point, because it also falls on Taiga as a main protagonist too. Hence the word Toradora.

Darknemo2000, my brother agrees with your post about the definition on tsundere, but he stated that its hard to even label Taiga as such. I've spent a good hour with him talking about Taiga's complex character, and try to compare it with other tsundere character. Even though he was comparing it to Nagi from Kannagi (his favorite anime), but I told him they are not the same. :)

Vexx

2008-11-25, 02:24

Too many people *use* labels as a way to avoid having to deal with more complex facets of a character. Essentially its a way to stop having to think about them. "Oh yeah, she's a loli-tsundere".... no more thinking required. They label and move on. "That's a mecha show, meh" and so on.

That's why I tend to object to them -- some people may use the terms as starting points, but many more people use them as endpoints of analysis.

So, with that - yeah, move along time.

Zippicus

2008-11-25, 03:08

Pretty much all of the characters in this show are too complex to slap a simple label on, it just does them a disservice.

KeitaroNagato

2008-11-25, 08:40

Aye, everyone in this cast is dysfunctional and broken in different ways. Its a *story* about such people and how they bond (or not). Taiga has a really thick shell but clearly Ryuuji senses it is just a shell (as does Minorin and Kitamura). Ami has several facets - none quite healthy; her dysfunctionality is almost driving her into psychosis and it comes out in fits of meanness; but Kitamura thinks there's something salvageable in her and eventually so does Ryuuji. Taiga wants to help but only for Kitamura's sake. Minorin has a crusty shell of manic comedic happy happy joy joy -- haven't quite got an angle on her inner demons yet. Kitamura seems incapable of fixing anything himself, has a thing about rough women. Sumire looks beautiful, talks tough, but can't seem to remember anything. The teacher is neurotic over her "christmas cake dilemma", Ryuuji's mom is a sad little basketcase of a widow working a pretend happyhappy job.
And so on and so on.

The result is character-driven drama as they interact and comedy in the tragic sense about the human condition. Okay, that's putting a bit too much weight on the story -- but for some of us, we're finding that somewhat compelling.

In this episode, where Ryuuji was at the station and suddenly Mirorin pops up (it believe it was a train station...?), I was laughing how Ryuuji reacted surprised. Yet, it shows how trusting Mirorin is towards Ryuuji, and how highly she thinks of him. So far, its the first time, beside school, that those two were together alone. The only other female character I could think Ryuuji actually spend time without Taiga was of course Ami. Funny, it seems that she REALLY wanted to be with Ryuuji, hence spending time at the villa, specially when she whisper him at the end. I think that Ami is more open to Ryuuji now, because he accepted her who she really is, and because of that Ami is more determine to be with him. She wouldn't have said to him discreetly "Too bad I can't spend time with you alone... But, there's always a chance!".

Darknemo2000

2008-11-25, 10:00

destiny4everlove

2008-11-25, 20:14

Episode 8

-Lol! :heh: “Sorry arl, Ami is mine”. :heh:

-Ryuuji betting 3,000 tyrols on Taiga was so sweet!!!http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/tina_0205/monkey%20emoticon/khi00.gif

-Even when sleeping in class Minori is hilarious!!! :heh: That scene was so funny.

-“Image training is good enough” Taiga was so cute and funny while doing that. :blush:http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/tina_0205/monkey%20emoticon/khi00.gif

-Kitamura betting on Taiga was so nice. :)

-I wonder if Ami is truly falling for Ryuuji. http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/tina_0205/monkey%20emoticon/khi34-1.gif

-Loved the conversation between Minori and Ryuuji!http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/tina_0205/monkey%20emoticon/khi01.gif I still think they make a lovely couple. http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/tina_0205/monkey%20emoticon/khi00.gif:nod:

-Taiga kicking the pool table was a very interesting moment. I think she did it because she was jealous of Ami, she didn’t like the idea of Ryuuji spending time with Ami, just the two of them all alone in her villa. I also think she did it because she was confused with her own thoughts, she was fully realizing that she wanted to win not because of Kitamura, or because she disliked Ami, it was because she didn’t want for Ryuuji to go away with Ami-chan, and I think this thought kind of scared her, so there was a mix of emotions inside of Taiga, which led to her kicking the pool table.

-Ryuuji wanting for Taiga to win...mmm…it seems Taiga’s feelings are not the only ones that are starting to change. ;)

-Taiga’s decoy to wing against Ami was priceless :heh:, it’s was underhanded but priceless nonetheless.

-Taiga trying to rescue Ryuuji even when she doesn’t fully know how to swim was so touching. I loved it!!http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/tina_0205/monkey%20emoticon/khi01.gif Taiga’s actions always speak louder than her words. :)

-“Ryuuji is mine. No one touch him”, loved that scene!http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/tina_0205/monkey%20emoticon/khi9b.gif Taiga has realized that Ryuuji is an important person to her, but she hasn’t fully realized just how important Ryuuji is to her, and by that I mean that she hasn’t fully realized that her feelings are not longer those of a master for her “dog”. ;)

frubam

2008-11-26, 19:41

Vexx, this was the point I was trying to make. Labels are useful when you want to starts and have a direction (labels will never guide you but can show which direction it goes and if you like it or not). It can be misleading but usually they are helpful, but only as starting points. Use a label as a final description of a character and you will not go anywhere just kill your own experience. taiga is a tsundere but at the same time she goes further than that (actually many characters as loong as they are well done do, like Louise from ZnT (of course that happens only in the novels as anime decided to kill any possible character depth for the sake of more boob-jokes)).

But the problem is that people who 'label' generally get a certain impression, which may have a negative reaction to it. Now i'll agree with labels being used by, say, a director/creator, to determine how he wants his or her character to be. Labeling is exactly what transpired in the first ep of this show, with people giving 'oh no'es and 'just another tsundere', then dropping the show because of it. Just like you always like to talk about how great the ZnT novels are, there are some people who've seen the anime and gave it a label, forever preventing them from trying the novel form because the anime is crap. In other words, labeling can prevent watchers/readers from further experiencing a show despite how good it may become as you get more involved.