[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 4 Alliance of the golden witch

[Varion]

Poll is working now. I'm not sure who to vote for... hmm...

Why is Rosa so high though? This chapter made me hate her more than ever :heh:

Who ever made that site had wayyy too much time on their hands.

Nah, it's a bizzare marketing campaign done by a makeup company that targets men where you upload a face pic and it sticks it into the template. Still hilarious though.

[Rias]

Not suprisingly (?) Eva-Beatrice won the first day's poll...:heh: Ep3 sure left a strong impact. (and probably the end part of ep4)

[Sterling01]

I'm stuck between Ange and Battler...
Also why is Hanyuu on the list?

[Rias]

same reason as why "「断る」心理テクニック" is on the list...people can add their own entries on the poll

[Golden Witch Drugs]

I just came up with this... In ep 1 where Kinzo is fryed in the kitchen, they recognize his corpse only by his 6 toes. And since Kinzo is already dead, that can't be his corpse. So maybe one of Kinzo's children had 6 toes in genres? Maybe it was Rudolf (Since it most likley was a man). And since the faces were ripped apart in the first twilight then maybe when the body was fryed it looked like the face was fryed but i was actually ripped.

[crazysjd89]

I just came up with this... In ep 1 where Kinzo is fryed in the kitchen, they recognize his corpse only by his 6 toes. And since Kinzo is already dead, that can't be his corpse. So maybe one of Kinzo's children had 6 toes in genres? Maybe it was Rudolf (Since it most likley was a man). And since the faces were ripped apart in the first twilight then maybe when the body was fryed it looked like the face was fryed but i was actually ripped.

Just because someone is dead, doesn't mean their body can't be burnt, though.

The reason why Kinzo was burned in each episode is (assumedly) to hide the rigor mortis in his body, so people wouldn't know he's been dead for a long time (and probably to hide Livor Mortis and possibly Decomposition). That's why people theorized Kinzo was dead before each game, because his body kept being burnt.

[Marion]

Hello everyone! I've been watching this forum and other Umineko forums for a while, but I have finally registered in order to present my theory for Battler.

(Note: When referring to the Battler that is the main character I will use Battler. When referencing to Asumu’s son Battler I will use BATTLER)

Okay so we know Battler is not Asumu’s child, due to the red text we received by Beato. We also know there was BATTLER, who WAS Asumu’s son. I think it went something like this:

While Rudolph and Asumu married they had a son. But what if around that same time Rudolph has having an affair with none other than Kyrie. According to character information they worked with each other in the same company and we know Rudolph to be a womanizer.

Rudolph and Kyrie named their child something, while Rudolph and Asumu named their son BATTLER. Because Rudolph and Asumu were married that makes BATTLER Kinzo’s legitimate grandson and Battler an illegitimate child from Kyrie. But what if BATTLER died soon after being born and Asumu was not made aware of this (maybe she was in the hospital or something). Rudolph doesn’t want to make his wife depressed so he might have asked Kyrie if they could take their and pretend it was Asumu’s son. Kyrie agreed and BATTLER, who is dead, was replaced with Kyrie’s son – Battler.

Rudolph and Kyrie maintain their affair, while Asumu and Battler believe that they are blood related. Asumu dies and Rudolph, perhaps wanting to repay Kyrie for her sacrifices, remarries to her. Battler, believing that Rudolph betrayed his ‘mother’ leaves for six years to live with Asumu’s family. This could be where Kyrie’s jealously stems from – the fact that Battler doesn’t even recognize her as his mother and that he was taken from her as a replacement for Asumu. This could also be considered Battler’s sin – replacing BATTLER and denying his birthmother.

Now to those that think this is unlikely, Beatrice never disproved this. Her red text only stated that Battler was not Asumu’s son. But her explanation afterwards was not in red text – which means it could easily be false. Remember what Bern, Lambda and Ange said: Beato’s talk about it was so that she could get away from the game she dubbed boring and completely mind screw Battler into defeat. We don’t know if anything she said about BATTLER is true, besides that because Battler is not Asumu’s son then that means there should be an original son, otherwise Battler wouldn’t believe he was Asumu’s son at the very most.

If Ange talked about this with Bern, at any time before Beato cornered him about it that means she doesn’t care if there was a BATTLER, because Battler is there. Ange was only 6 years old when Episode 3 or any episode for that matter occurred. That means she was born around the time when Asumu died.
I bet there's a bunch of things wrong with this, but I'm most going off of summaries of Episode Four since I don't actually have it yet >3>

[Klashikari]

The fact Kyrie got a miscarriage just ruins any theory involving a baby swap.

Also, considering episode 3, what actually happened is that Kyrie and Rudolf were going out, and Asumu barged in the fray and managed to take advantage of Rudolf's weakness to have a child with him.
The birth of original battler was the reason why rudolf had to get married with Asumu, they were not married before that.

[Saerianne]

Hello everyone! I've been watching this forum and other Umineko forums for a while, but I have finally registered in order to present my theory for Battler.

(Note: When referring to the Battler that is the main character I will use Battler. When referencing to Asumu’s son Battler I will use BATTLER)

Okay so we know Battler is not Asumu’s child, due to the red text we received by Beato. We also know there was BATTLER, who WAS Asumu’s son. I think it went something like this:

While Rudolph and Asumu married they had a son. But what if around that same time Rudolph has having an affair with none other than Kyrie. According to character information they worked with each other in the same company and we know Rudolph to be a womanizer.

Rudolph and Kyrie named their child something, while Rudolph and Asumu named their son BATTLER. Because Rudolph and Asumu were married that makes BATTLER Kinzo’s legitimate grandson and Battler an illegitimate child from Kyrie. But what if BATTLER died soon after being born and Asumu was not made aware of this (maybe she was in the hospital or something). Rudolph doesn’t want to make his wife depressed so he might have asked Kyrie if they could take their and pretend it was Asumu’s son. Kyrie agreed and BATTLER, who is dead, was replaced with Kyrie’s son – Battler.

Rudolph and Kyrie maintain their affair, while Asumu and Battler believe that they are blood related. Asumu dies and Rudolph, perhaps wanting to repay Kyrie for her sacrifices, remarries to her. Battler, believing that Rudolph betrayed his ‘mother’ leaves for six years to live with Asumu’s family. This could be where Kyrie’s jealously stems from – the fact that Battler doesn’t even recognize her as his mother and that he was taken from her as a replacement for Asumu. This could also be considered Battler’s sin – replacing BATTLER and denying his birthmother.

Now to those that think this is unlikely, Beatrice never disproved this. Her red text only stated that Battler was not Asumu’s son. But her explanation afterwards was not in red text – which means it could easily be false. Remember what Bern, Lambda and Ange said: Beato’s talk about it was so that she could get away from the game she dubbed boring and completely mind screw Battler into defeat. We don’t know if anything she said about BATTLER is true, besides that because Battler is not Asumu’s son then that means there should be an original son, otherwise Battler wouldn’t believe he was Asumu’s son at the very most.

If Ange talked about this with Bern, at any time before Beato cornered him about it that means she doesn’t care if there was a BATTLER, because Battler is there. Ange was only 6 years old when Episode 3 or any episode for that matter occurred. That means she was born around the time when Asumu died.
I bet there's a bunch of things wrong with this, but I'm most going off of summaries of Episode Four since I don't actually have it yet >3>

Welcome to the forums. ^^

The fact Kyrie got a miscarriage just ruins any theory involving a baby swap.

Also, considering episode 3, what actually happened is that Kyrie and Rudolf were going out, and Asumu barged in the fray and managed to take advantage of Rudolf's weakness to have a child with him.
The birth of original battler was the reason why rudolf had to get married with Asumu, they were not married before that.

But I'd have to agree with this. Kyrie tells us the story when she battles Leviathan. She'd never want to give Asumu her baby on these circumstances.

[Sterling01]

The fact Kyrie got a miscarriage just ruins any theory involving a baby swap.
It wasn't stated in red

[Klashikari]

It wasn't stated in red
Since this information is not given by Beato herself, I don't think it will be required to be in red, especially it doesn't benefit her one bit in Episode 3 or 4.

Furthermore, it doesn't exactly make sense for Kyrie to think like this without specific truth, until she got cheated to a ridiculous level.
If it was stillbirth, I could understand, but it is impossible to deceive with miscarriage.

[Sterling01]

Furthermore, it doesn't exactly make sense for Kyrie to think like this without specific truth, until she got cheated to a ridiculous level.
If it was stillbirth, I could understand, but it is impossible to deceive with miscarriage.

We don't know if it was Kyrie who was the one thinking that

[k//eternal]

Who do you propose was thinking it instead?

[Sterling01]

Who do you propose was thinking it instead?
......... don't know

[theacefrehley]

Who do you propose was thinking it instead?

If we take the the magic scenes as Beatrice telling Battler about scenes he could not witness, perhaps the dialogs were also created by her.

By I don't see the point in faking information like this. I mean it in script-writer level.
Most probably Kyrie thinks/believes she had a miscarriage.

BUT;
(completely ignorant in biology speaking now)

Why can't Kyrie be deceived with a (fake) miscarriage?

I've read somewhere that miscarriage happens up to 24 weeks (6 months). Couldn't Kyrie have felt sick, taken to a hospital, passed out and woken up with the miscarriage 'bad news' = fake miscarriage+kidnapped baby?
6 months babies are very weak but are not impossible to survive.

[Rias]

Isn't this similar to the "recollection" of Natsuhi when he went to talk to Kinzo and got all that courage, in ep1? You have someone interact with some fantasy element, then does some inner thinking becuase of that.

Sure I agree that there's no point faking that kind of info, but perhaps there's a deeper meaning for that scene.

[Klashikari]

Why can't Kyrie be deceived with a (fake) miscarriage?

I've read somewhere that miscarriage happens up to 24 weeks (6 months). Couldn't Kyrie have felt sick, taken to a hospital, passed out and woken up with the miscarriage 'bad news' = fake miscarriage+kidnapped baby?
6 months babies are very weak but are not impossible to survive.They aren't simply weak, the morbidity rate is drastically so high that preterm birth around 20 weeks are pretty much exposed to brain damage, infections etc.
Doing such stunt has a much larger risk of mortality (IIRC, preterm babies have only 50% chance of survival around 24 weeks), and the lucky survivors are absolutely not spared of numerous health issues.
Basically, one must be insane doing that: it would go against the purpose of kidnapping the baby. A regular kidnapping and a fake corpse would be much more "realistic" than this.
Rather, it is like an assassination attempt with a cover (which could be done with teratogen drugs).

Honestly, it doesn't make sense at all for such kind of stunt.

Isn't this similar to the "recollection" of Natsuhi when he went to talk to Kinzo and got all that courage, in ep1? You have someone interact with some fantasy element, then does some inner thinking becuase of that.

Sure I agree that there's no point faking that kind of info, but perhaps there's a deeper meaning for that scene.Since Kinzo was shown always from behind during that scene, there is absolutely no reason to doubt Natsuhi met "him", though there is no red text that stated "Natsuhi acknowledged Kinzo's existence for episode 1".
As such, we cannot remove the possibility that this really happened (especially considering Natsuhi self righteousness). There is a leeway that she could have been deceived here.

Furthermore, I question the existence of the "witch side" for Episode 1, if we consider the timeline of the events with the meta world (until it is like onikakushi, with some chessboards beforehand, but Tea Party 1 implies otherwise).

[Bern-chan]

Why can't Kyrie be deceived with a (fake) miscarriage?

I've read somewhere that miscarriage happens up to 24 weeks (6 months). Couldn't Kyrie have felt sick, taken to a hospital, passed out and woken up with the miscarriage 'bad news' = fake miscarriage+kidnapped baby?
6 months babies are very weak but are not impossible to survive.

Even if that happened, why would they kidnap a foetus? Who would have done it? Kinzo doesn't seem to leave Rokkenjima at all, and there's no hospital on the island. Maybe Nanjo could have been working in the hospital Kyrie went to or something. But I don't really see why anyone would want to kidnap her unborn son.

[crazysjd89]

Why can't Kyrie be deceived with a (fake) miscarriage?

I've read somewhere that miscarriage happens up to 24 weeks (6 months). Couldn't Kyrie have felt sick, taken to a hospital, passed out and woken up with the miscarriage 'bad news' = fake miscarriage+kidnapped baby?
6 months babies are very weak but are not impossible to survive.

Even assuming he survives through everything that Klash mentioned, he probably wouldn't be tall.

I think it would be nice if Battler was Kyrie's son, but I'm with Klash in that I don't see a real logical way for it to happen, though that doesn't necessarily mean their isn't one.

[k//eternal]

The only way I see it happening is if she doesn't mean "miscarriage" literally, but I have no idea why that would be the case. If she actually had a miscarriage, or there was a fetus kidnapping (what the hell?) there is basically no way the child would survive.

Unless you think the "homunculi" mentioned in the story are kidnapped and reimplanted fetuses and there was some kind of super-advanced technology for the time making it possible, that's pretty much a dead end. And if the end solution is that completely ridiculous, I'd rather buy into the "magic" explanation.

[theacefrehley]

Even if that happened, why would they kidnap a foetus? Who would have done it? Kinzo doesn't seem to leave Rokkenjima at all, and there's no hospital on the island. Maybe Nanjo could have been working in the hospital Kyrie went to or something. But I don't really see why anyone would want to kidnap her unborn son.

Well, it's absurd but not totally impossible, I guess :heh:
Why anyone would want it? Ask Aunt Kasumi or crazed Kinzo
Crazy people here we have a lot
I'm just trying to find things from 1968 to put together :D
So far we have:
- Battler/Jessica's birthdate
- Kyrie's miscarriage
- Rosa+Beatrice adventures

Whatever:(

[Rias]

To me, Kinzo would probably be the easiest to sneak out the island unnoticed, with help from the servants. Just leave Genji behind to make something up (like he locked himself in the room to do research again) and have like Kanon accompany him since Ginzo's an old man (and claim that Kanon is on break)

[HigurashinoUmineko]

Something I just realized...

I just realized after reading a certain part of Legend of The Golden Witch, Gaap is mentioned (Dang I'm stupid lol

[Bern-chan]

Something I just realized...

I just realized after reading a certain part of Legend of The Golden Witch, Gaap is mentioned (Dang I'm stupid lol

o.o Where? I don't remember that.

[chronotrig]

It's one of the lines we're redoing in the translation, now that we know more about what it means from EP4.

'............That's right. Kihihihihihihihi, locking a door is useless against a witch. ......Beatrice is familiar with all 72 demons. The 33rd ranked, Gaap, gives the power to instantly carry the desired person to any location.'

[Bern-chan]

What was it originally translated as?

[Saerianne]

now that you mentioned that, I remember reading something like that.

[Rias]

The Butterfly Kiss booklet (7 sister's Valentine) is pretty interesting with the pairings :heh:

[theacefrehley]

The Butterfly Kiss booklet (7 sister's Valentine) is pretty interesting with the pairings :heh:

Hmm...:(:(

Only found an portion of it
do you know where to read it full?

Where I read, it had only Asmodeus and Belzebub :(:(

[Sterling01]

The Butterfly Kiss booklet (7 sister's Valentine) is pretty interesting with the pairings :heh:
Was there any GodaXBeelzebub?

Only found an portion of it

Link please

[theacefrehley]

Was there any GodaXBeelzebub?

Link please

http://umineco.info/

I have a doubt from EP4,


When Battler is trying to explain the sanctuary from EP2 he proposes:
真里亞の鍵を、何者かが密かに拝借し、事件終了後に密かに真里亞のカバンに戻したんだ！！

Then Beatrice denies with:
真里亞の鍵は、真里亞受領後から翌日の楼座開封の瞬間まで、誰の手にも渡っていない！！

He tries to work out something with auto-locks, which beatrice denies.

Then he tries this:

扉は犠牲者たちが内側から閉めたんだ。
６人の中に犯人がいて、５人を殺し、死んだふりをしていた！！

Wait a minute.
Leaving aside possible hidden doors or secret passages, he's trying to explain how to break the door of the sanctuary, which was supposedly locked, knowing Maria's key did not go through anyone's hand (I know, Maria could have been manipulated here, but Battler is not taking it into consideration now).

If we take 閉めた as 'locked', and not only 'closed' (people who understand japanese better, please, is it possible?...:D)...
Is he assuming that the door can be freely locked from inside, even without keys?

Or is he assuming the door is just closed and not locked from the beginning?

:confused::confused:

[momobunny]

I wonder... does Gohda do anything special in Episode 4? Because I noticed that he made it into the top 10 of the newest Character Popularity Poll. O.o

[Rias]

I wonder... does Gohda do anything special in Episode 4? Because I noticed that he made it into the top 10 of the newest Character Popularity Poll. O.o

Gohda has been somewhat popular in the past...Ep 1 and 3 he was 23/27 place, but for ep2 he was 10th

The popularity of ep4 might have to do with Happy_Maria :heh:

Even tho the polls have closed right now, the votes are really close as they are doing the recount to ensure people didn't vote more than once per day...10 votes seperates no.1~3, 30 votes seperates no.5~9...so the characters can still move around depending on the recount.

[WhiteFrost]

I read "And Then There Were None" by Agatha Christie and it struck me how much the story resembled Umineko. I just thought that if the stories are as similar as they seem then maybe it is a fact that everyone commited some sort of crime (intentionally or unintentionally) before visiting Rokkenjima? (It would fit with the symbolic of the Stakes of Purgatory) After all Beatrice stated that even Battler had commited a crime he could not recall.
... but then again, it would contradict why the stakes are different for each victim every game...

By the way, does anyone remember what kind of lock there were on the closed rooms and the shrine?

[momobunny]

I read "And Then There Were None" by Agatha Christie and it struck me how much the story resembled Umineko. I just thought that if the stories are as similar as they seem then maybe it is a fact that everyone commited some sort of crime (intentionally or unintentionally) before visiting Rokkenjima? (It would fit with the symbolic of the Stakes of Purgatory) After all Beatrice stated that even Battler had commited a crime he could not recall.
... but then again, it would contradict why the stakes are different for each victim every game...


Not necessarily,I've not played EP 4 but I can safely say that crimes often involved more than just one sin,so it wouldn't necessarily contradict anything... I think?

[KMnO4]

Hi, I visited some places whose images were used in "Umineko". I uploaded a movie comparing the original images used in our game and real photographs at Niconico-Douga:

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm6069033

Those "real" pictures were taken at some Western-style residences (Youkan in Japanese) located around Tokyo and Yokohama, Japan.

If you have niconicovideo account, please enjoy!

Or should I re-upload the (remaked) movie to YouTube?

[KMnO4]

I uploaded another pictures of western-style residences and gardens in Japan for comparison between them and images in Umineko. The URL is

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm6175431

I will be glad if you give me comments.

Enjoy!

[chronotrig]

Aaah, you got me with that portrait one. You really went all out finding all those shots.

It's pretty cool seeing everything in real life though. I liked the garden shots...but without a doubt, that mansion would be a creepy place to get stuck in on a stormy night.

[Kets]

Out of curiosity, how many new characters are shown in Ep. 4?

[Klashikari]

Without counting "alternative" version of some characters, there are 10 new characters in episode 4.

[Kets]

What do you mean by Alternate?

[Marion]

What do you mean by Alternate?
I'm guessing she means different versions of characters. Like how even though Witch Maria is introduced she is still the same as Maria.

[Bern-chan]

Could anyone explain who the human-looking new characters are?

All I know is that one is Kyrie's sister, one is Ange's bodyguard and another is supposed to be someone from Higurashi?

[Klashikari]

@marion: he, not she :heh:

@bern-chan:

Humans only? here goes the list

-Okonogi Tetsurou
-Sumadera Kazumi
-Amakusa Juuza
-Professor Ootsuki
-Nanjo Masayuki
-Kumasawa Sabakichi
-Captain Kawabata

as for the other characters:

-Sakutarou
-Gaap
-Siesta 00

I did not count Siesta 556, because she only appears in the tips, and she is mentioned only once in episode 4

[Bern-chan]

I was hoping for a bit more detail, if you don't mind. :P

[crazysjd89]

These have a lot of character details in them, so just be warned. I wasn't
sure if this is what you wanted when you say "details"


Okonogi - Looks like his Higurashi counterpart, and is the head of the bodyguards that guard Eva and Ange.

Kazumi - Kyrie's sister. She has white hair and wears a kimono, and is after Ange. She hated Kyrie because Kyrie should have been the head of their family, but she ran off and married Rudolph.

Amakusa - Ange's personal bodyguard through the episode, he has silver hair and looks a bit gangsterish. If I recall correctly, I believe they said he was French.

Ootsuki - A guy with black hair a huge nose. He is the one who has the reference to Witch Hunt. As such, he is one of the people trying to solve what happened at Rokkenjima.

Masayuki - Nanjo's son. He looks similar to Nanjo.

Sabakichi - Kumasawa's son, a slightly fat person with a shaved head (I think).

Kawabata - An old man with a green hat on his head. He was the captain who drove everyone to Rokkenjima, and he drove Ange there also.


Sakutarou - A stuffed lion who was apprantly given a human form by Maria. In his human form he has blonde hair and wears yellow oversized clothing. He was made by Rosa for Maria's birthday (not sure which one, though). He says うりゅ a lot.

<s>Yukari</s> Gaap - Another demon from the 72 pillars, like Ronove, who has the ability to form gaps to other locations. She's the one with curly blond hair, and the dress that is completly open on the sides.

Siesta 00 - A new Siesta, with long blonde hair. She seems to be the leader of the group.

Siesta 556 - A new Siesta, but is only mentioned in passing. She was killed by "The Black Witch". She has short black hair.

[ClockWorkAngel]

I just thought of something you know the numbers placed on the door, that Battler commented was the date of his birth? Perhaps that's a reference to the baby swapping in some way? Really I'm just going on a limp here, but it does seem like a coincidence.

[crazysjd89]

I just thought of something you know the numbers placed on the door, that Battler commented was the date of his birth? Perhaps that's a reference to the baby swapping in some way? Really I'm just going on a limp here, but it does seem like a coincidence.

But then, I wonder why it would be written on the door. If it were to "inform" Battler, it didn't do a very good job on it, since he was completly confused.

Episode 4 has made me think a lot about that number, because they are apprantly bank numbers, but why would they be written on the door?

Perhaps, someone on the island knew the numbers (perhaps George? Maybe he had a set of the numbers, and the killer got it out of him.) And then, writing it on the door might have been because the killer figured they couldn't remember the 8-number string, so it was a reminder to themselves, so they could find pen and paper and write it down.

[Ankoku-chan]

Trying to locate the English translations for Lambda's Diary and Bern's letter. Search isn't really helping (but does it really ever?)

Can someone link me to those posts, please?

[Kets]

Trying to locate the English translations for Lambda's Diary and Bern's letter. Search isn't really helping (but does it really ever?)

Can someone link me to those posts, please?
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=2212848&postcount=1003
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=2214696&postcount=1009

Here's Anti-mytsery vs. Anti-fantasy, if you need this as well:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=2220584&postcount=1021

[Ankoku-chan]

Thank you, Kets ^_^

[kiby]

(*w*)
About "rules" does someone has an idea about what could be Rule X Y and Z?

[rogerpepitone]

I posted my theories about rules X, Y, and Z at http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=2237412&postcount=1104

Also, so what if miscarriages only happen up to 6 months? If a doctor told Kyrie she had miscarried, I think she would have taken his word for it.

Assumption: Kyrie was always Rudolf's real interest; Rudolf was only marrying Asumu because she was pregnant; Asumu knew both those facts. (Partly supported by the fact that he did marry Kyrie right after Asumu died.)

I could see Asumu:
- going to the trouble to steal Kyrie's baby, somehow, if she miscarried, and realized that Rudolf would immediately drop her when he learns of it.
- convince a doctor to treat Kyrie with something like scopolamine, induce labor while she's out, and tell her that she miscarried afterwards.
- keeping the child alive because Rudolf would leave her if "his son by her" died
- using Kyrie's son because he was the right age and he would pass any paternity tests.
- keeping premature Battler hidden and somehow faking a birth (perhaps have a C-section as an excuse to keep Rudolf away from the actual birthing)

On the other hand, I fail to see how it matters to the events of 1986 whether Battler's genetic mother is Asumu, Kyrie, or Jane Doe.

[Marion]

It does matter actually. Not completely in 1986, but to the sake of the game


Somewhere halfway through episode 4 (I'm pretty sure it's halfway, can't remember for sure), Beatrice stops playing, deciding that she has become bored with Battler. Ange, Bern, Lambda and Battler are clearly pissed at her spoiled attitude and she just says that it's her game and she can choose how long she wants to wait until she wants to continue it. Battler gets madder and Beatrice asks him what his sin is and if that he could remember it then she would continue.

Battler can't remember and Beatrice begins to ask him to state things in red (which he can do now in this episode apparently). Ange apparently knows whats going on and tries to stop her but it's hopeless. She continues to ask Battler to state things, but once she asks him to state "I am born from Asumu Ushiromiya" he cannot do so. He continues to try it, but he still can't state in red that he was born from Asumu.

Beatrice then does what is perhaps the greatest mindfuck since her 'North Wind and Sun' strategy and tells him that he is not Battler Ushiromiya. Why? Because her opponent, Kinzo's grandson Battler Ushiromiya, has been dead for six years. This is apparently Battler's sin - impersonating Battler Ushiromiya for some purpose. Battler obviously has no idea what's going on and neither does Lambda (Lambda is only helping because as we know from the 3rd Tea Party, she wants Beatrice's game to continue forever), but Bernkastel completely submits, saying that because Battler doesn't have the right to battle her then she loses.

Ange of course refuses to let Beatrice do this and basically starts her journey to realize true magic. It's pretty long, but long story short: Ange learns what true magic is about and is able to find Beatrice, who is hiding in a Golden Land world she made with Maria. Ange revives Sakutarou, which Beatrice couldn't do, to prove that she is a real witch. Beatrice then returns to Purgatorio with Ange and is forced to resume her game with Battler - because even if he is not THE Battler Ushiromiya, he is still Rudolph Ushiromiya's son and therefore IS Kinzo's Grandson, thus giving him right to fight with her.

Battler is brought back by Bernkastel, but he is completely a shell of the person he was, believing completely in Beatrice's words. Ange tries to pull him out of it with a sacrifice - to return his fighting spirit and make him remember why he is fighting Beatrice in the first place she states to Battler in red that she is his sister Ange. A long, really sad speech happens, and Battler regains his will to fight Beatrice. Ange is destroyed, due to Lambda's rule that she could not reveal to Battler her real identity (which is why she called herself Gretel).

We can pretty much say that only Rudolph and Asumu knows the truth, since Kyrie herself believes that she had a miscarriage from her monologue to Levithan.

[Rias]

It does matter actually. Not completely in 1986, but to the sake of the game


Somewhere halfway through episode 4 (I'm pretty sure it's halfway, can't remember for sure), Beatrice stops playing, deciding that she has become bored with Battler. Ange, Bern, Lambda and Battler are clearly pissed at her spoiled attitude and she just says that it's her game and she can choose how long she wants to wait until she wants to continue it. Battler gets madder and Beatrice asks him what his sin is and if that he could remember it then she would continue.

Battler can't remember and Beatrice begins to ask him to state things in red (which he can do now in this episode apparently). Ange apparently knows whats going on and tries to stop her but it's hopeless. She continues to ask Battler to state things, but once she asks him to state "I am born from Asumu Ushiromiya" he cannot do so. He continues to try it, but he still can't state in red that he was born from Asumu.

Beatrice then does what is perhaps the greatest mindfuck since her 'North Wind and Sun' strategy and tells him that he is not Battler Ushiromiya. Why? Because her opponent, Kinzo's grandson Battler Ushiromiya, has been dead for six years. This is apparently Battler's sin - impersonating Battler Ushiromiya for some purpose. Battler obviously has no idea what's going on and neither does Lambda (Lambda is only helping because as we know from the 3rd Tea Party, she wants Beatrice's game to continue forever), but Bernkastel completely submits, saying that because Battler doesn't have the right to battle her then she loses.

Ange of course refuses to let Beatrice do this and basically starts her journey to realize true magic. It's pretty long, but long story short: Ange learns what true magic is about and is able to find Beatrice, who is hiding in a Golden Land world she made with Maria. Ange revives Sakutarou, which Beatrice couldn't do, to prove that she is a real witch. Beatrice then returns to Purgatorio with Ange and is forced to resume her game with Battler - because even if he is not THE Battler Ushiromiya, he is still Rudolph Ushiromiya's son and therefore IS Kinzo's Grandson, thus giving him right to fight with her.

Battler is brought back by Bernkastel, but he is completely a shell of the person he was, believing completely in Beatrice's words. Ange tries to pull him out of it with a sacrifice - to return his fighting spirit and make him remember why he is fighting Beatrice in the first place she states to Battler in red that she is his sister Ange. A long, really sad speech happens, and Battler regains his will to fight Beatrice. Ange is destroyed, due to Lambda's rule that she could not reveal to Battler her real identity (which is why she called herself Gretel).

We can pretty much say that only Rudolph and Asumu knows the truth, since Kyrie herself believes that she had a miscarriage from her monologue to Levithan.

There's definitely some stuff in there that I don't remember happening...

[marebito]

about Marion's summary (so again, SPOILERS included):

Why do you assume that the supposed impersonating is Battler's sin? Where is the evidende for that? Where did Beato state that this was his sin? I might be wrong but I just read that scene today and I don't think that happened. So the only thing we know is that Battler committed a sin 6 years ago (where Beato supposedly does not 'exist', whatever she exactly means with that sentence) that causes everyone to die on Rokkenjima in the year 1986.

[Klashikari]

It does matter actually. Not completely in 1986, but to the sake of the game


Somewhere halfway through episode 4 (I'm pretty sure it's halfway, can't remember for sure), Beatrice stops playing, deciding that she has become bored with Battler. Ange, Bern, Lambda and Battler are clearly pissed at her spoiled attitude and she just says that it's her game and she can choose how long she wants to wait until she wants to continue it. Battler gets madder and Beatrice asks him what his sin is and if that he could remember it then she would continue.

Battler can't remember and Beatrice begins to ask him to state things in red (which he can do now in this episode apparently). Ange apparently knows whats going on and tries to stop her but it's hopeless. She continues to ask Battler to state things, but once she asks him to state "I am born from Asumu Ushiromiya" he cannot do so. He continues to try it, but he still can't state in red that he was born from Asumu.

Beatrice then does what is perhaps the greatest mindfuck since her 'North Wind and Sun' strategy and tells him that he is not Battler Ushiromiya. Why? Because her opponent, Kinzo's grandson Battler Ushiromiya, has been dead for six years. This is apparently Battler's sin - impersonating Battler Ushiromiya for some purpose. Battler obviously has no idea what's going on and neither does Lambda (Lambda is only helping because as we know from the 3rd Tea Party, she wants Beatrice's game to continue forever), but Bernkastel completely submits, saying that because Battler doesn't have the right to battle her then she loses.

Ange of course refuses to let Beatrice do this and basically starts her journey to realize true magic. It's pretty long, but long story short: Ange learns what true magic is about and is able to find Beatrice, who is hiding in a Golden Land world she made with Maria. Ange revives Sakutarou, which Beatrice couldn't do, to prove that she is a real witch. Beatrice then returns to Purgatorio with Ange and is forced to resume her game with Battler - because even if he is not THE Battler Ushiromiya, he is still Rudolph Ushiromiya's son and therefore IS Kinzo's Grandson, thus giving him right to fight with her.

Battler is brought back by Bernkastel, but he is completely a shell of the person he was, believing completely in Beatrice's words. Ange tries to pull him out of it with a sacrifice - to return his fighting spirit and make him remember why he is fighting Beatrice in the first place she states to Battler in red that she is his sister Ange. A long, really sad speech happens, and Battler regains his will to fight Beatrice. Ange is destroyed, due to Lambda's rule that she could not reveal to Battler her real identity (which is why she called herself Gretel).

We can pretty much say that only Rudolph and Asumu knows the truth, since Kyrie herself believes that she had a miscarriage from her monologue to Levithan.

There are several wrong statements in this summary

-This happen rather at the 2/3, 3/4 of the game

-Beatrice never stated what was the "sin" or "crime"

-The real Ushiromiya Battler status is NOT revealed. We do not know if he (or she?) is alive or dead. Let alone their whereabouts. And no, it never used the word "grandson" either, so gender is not confirmed.

-There is no evident fact or proof that Battler's crime was because he took place of Original Battler.
The only facts we know are as follow
1) It is unrelated to Beatrice, whose concept wasn't known at that time (not contradictory with her thousand years life span)
2) It is a direct/indirect cause of the tragedy. It doesn't mean there are more than this. Therefore, it can be another cause that, combined with others, led to the Rokkenjima mass murder tragedy

By the way, Battler's true mother doesn't exactly matter, unless his true mother might have a big role in this mystery. Aside, it was just a cheap way for Beatrice to forcefully remove Ange from the game.

[Marion]

Whoops!~

Just went through episode 4 again and realized Mare and Klash are right XD; Sorry about that.

As far as using it as a cheap way to remove Ange, it is a fact that Battler could not state that he was born from Asumu. So it leads us to wonder where Battler from Asumu is? Rosa thought the same thing in episode 2 when she accused Battler of being 'the wolf'.

Honestly, I personally find red text dubious. It seems to convenient to trust everything in red. Like when in episode 2 when Beatrice stated in red that Battler was incompetent :U

[Klashikari]

Without red text, it doesn't allow the readers to figure what can be truth from what they see in the story.
While usual detective novels always use normal settings, Umineko has too much fancy and fantasy elements. Without any solid basis reference, it will just crumble the opportunity for the readers to have a coherent and decent guesswork and theories process.

if the red text cannot be trusted, the story doesn't have any purpose or worth, and waiting for the last chapter wouldn't be satisfying either.
And since the story showed how the red truth is used with semantic sharking, it increases the flaws aspect but also strengthen their truth.

[Haruyan]

Maybe we should open a threat exclusive for red text, because there seems to be a lot of opinions whether to trust the red text or, completely or partially. Like other evidence though, it seems to be subject to interpretation (of us, the reader), IMHO.

All in all, the episodes keep getting more magical as the story goes on (I'm only half-way through EP4, just looking at the pictures 'cause I don't know japanese), I can't help but wonder what Ryuukishi plans for the answer arc....but I'm sure he'll absolutely crush our theories....

[Klashikari]

There are too much threads already, and red text "upgrade" its status and basis over the episodes, so opinions are fine in the respective episode thread.

And seriously (well, just as an advice mind you), I suggest you to stop right where you are reading. Skimming over the game without understanding anything is extremely bad, especially for shock and surprise fact, regardless you are spoiled beforehand or not.
That is seriously watering down your possible experience later on (notably for episode 4).

And Ryuukishi, from higurashi to umineko, always take the liberty to trash out everyone's theory from a given previous episode. Episode 4 merciless ending show is a bigger proof of that (+ the 2chan theories proved wrong in ep2-3)

[Haruyan]

I don't mean to be rude, but I think it's up to my discretion to skim the game or not or get spoiled. I got spoiled before I even got the EP1 game and that didn't 'water down' the experience at all.

[Klashikari]

Henceforth, suggestion suggestion.


That matter aside, speaking of Ryukishi funky habit to obliterate theories, I guess original battler matter will be a bit fuzzied...supposedly.

[Haruyan]

We'll see. I think he might actually read all our theories and then just come up with something that's either only mentioned once, or we didn't think of it before.

Honestly though, it's kinda exciting to see what kind of mind-f*ck will Ryuukishi springs up.

[Marion]

Well there's going to be a lot to answer. If the same pattern for releases continues the next game is only coming out in about half a year. The answer arcs are always more insane than the question ones in my opinion - even though they sometimes take away the satisfaction of your favorite theories dying.

Even now I don't have much idea for whose the culprit in some of the episodes (Episode 3, in my opinion, is the easiest one to interpret culprit wise) but I doubt it's whoever Beatrice is.

Speaking of which:

I still think the culprit is a 19th person. Just because it wasn't a 19th person in Episode 3 doesn't mean that applies to all other episodes. Of course there is still an ultimate culprit in the end - who says the 19th person even needs to be on the island. They could easily be influencing someone on the island to do the murders for them.

[marebito]

Didn't episode 4 end with Battler's suggestion that Kinzo was already dead before the 4th and 5th in each episode? 犯人x would be an 18th person then if it's none of the other 17.

EDIT: I just remembered there was someone in the dining room that everyone acknowledged as having Kinzo's status... If that's none of the characters we already know (which wouldn't really make any sense...) we have 18 people again + a 19th person as culprit.

[crazysjd89]

I still think the culprit is a 19th person. Just because it wasn't a 19th person in Episode 3 doesn't mean that applies to all other episodes. Of course there is still an ultimate culprit in the end - who says the 19th person even needs to be on the island. They could easily be influencing someone on the island to do the murders for them.

If you're asking that question, I don't think you've read Episode 4, so read this at your own discretion.




After Battler told Beatrice to get serious, she proclaimed "Kinzo is dead but even still, there are no more than 17 people on the island, in all games" in red.


EDIT: I just remembered there was someone in the dining room that everyone acknowledged as having Kinzo's status... If that's none of the characters we already know (which wouldn't really make any sense...) we have 18 people again + a 19th person as culprit.

The most general theory for this is that someone solved the riddle and so was reconized as Kinzo. From this perspective, I think that this was probably Kyrie.

Another thought I worked out is a slight hole in the red text. Beatrice claims "Noone would mistake Kinzo by sight", so there is still a chance that they mistook him by ear. I.E., he talked through a door or something. From this perspective, I think that it is possible that Kyrie, maybe Rudolph, and possibly others planned to kill them if Kinzo was still alive. Krauss made it seem like Kinzo was alive through above method, so the killings started.

[Haruyan]

If you're asking that question, I don't think you've read Episode 4, so read this at your own discretion.




After Battler told Beatrice to get serious, she proclaimed "Kinzo is dead but even still, there are no more than 17 people on the island, in all games" in red.

Regarding that, I have a question...

Does that include the actual EP1, or just the games that Battler and Beatrice played (EP2 and 3)?

[Klashikari]

Battler thought about the same loophole but:
1) Beatrice declared that Kinzo's status is the same in any game
2) Her "no more than 17" is also a general rule, like before

Still, since Beatrice never says "exactly 17" and never point out that the number of humans never change, we cannot be for sure that, at a certain moment, we have the culprit taking the place of someone after killing them.

So yeah, Natsuhi's scene with Kinzo is downright fishy, but since he is "shown from the back", it is possible that she was fooled somehow, something like that. The fact there "is a kinzo" shows that the culprit is having some fun around, but still dodge the "17 human" rule.

[Haruyan]

Battler thought about the same loophole but:
1) Beatrice declared that Kinzo's status is the same in any game
2) Her "no more than 17" is also a general rule, like before

Still, since Beatrice never says "exactly 17" and never point out that the number of humans never change, we cannot be for sure that, at a certain moment, we have the culprit taking the place of someone after killing them.

So yeah, Natsuhi's scene with Kinzo is downright fishy, but since he is "shown from the back", it is possible that she was fooled somehow, something like that. The fact there "is a kinzo" shows that the culprit is having some fun around, but still dodge the "17 human" rule.

So...

All the scenes with Kinzo are shit!?!?!

[Meryujinu]

Hi there~
I am new here... but i have some questions.

I heard something about the Kinzo and the goldsmith. Is him and the goldsmith the same people? And if yes, how did he become that Goldsmith? Sorry, if it was already asked...

[marebito]

Hi there~
I am new here... but i have some questions.

I heard something about the Kinzo and the goldsmith. Is him and the goldsmith the same people? And if yes, how did he become that Goldsmith? Sorry, if it was already asked...

The Goldsmith is Kinzo's alter ego on the meta-level. Since we still don't know what the meta-level is and how it works exactly, and also because we don't really know many evident facts about Kinzo, up until now no reader can say how he 'became' that Goldsmith (we don't even know if 'become' is actually the right word to use).

Concerning the number of persons:
Beato says there are 17 persons in each episode and at the end of episode 4 she states in red that right now Battler is the only person remaining on the island. However she also states that even if he is alone right now, she kills him at the end of 10/05. Furthermore she asks him who he thinks she is while really using the word 'who' (dare) and not 'what' or anything in that direction. So everything concerning the actual number of persons involved on the island is still quite fishy. I know, just because she says she kills Battler at that moment she doesn't have to literally stand in front of him in person and kill him with her own hands but I hope her obvious use of 'dare' is at least some kind of hint...

[Rias]

So...

All the scenes with Kinzo are shit!?!?!


Well, there are a few possibilities regarding the scenes with Kinzo in it.
1. They were scenes that happened before Kinzo died. Natsuhi's flash back scene in ep1 could've been that she went into the room and remembered what Kinzo said before.

2. Another Kinzo. Something or someone (there was a big debate about this many pages ago in this thread) is posing as "Kinzo". This works as long as some or most people acknowledge he/she/it is Kinzo.

3. Frabricated scenes, made up by whoever "saw" Kinzo. Dead person is dead.

There are probably other theories out there, so we can't completely throw out all those Kinzo scenes yet.

[Marion]

But then we need to question other people: The Servants. More specifically Genji, Shannon, Kanon and sometimes Nanjo.

Kinzo, in all episodes, never leaves his study: specifically speaking we aren't shown him leaving. But we do see Genji, Shannon and Kanon entering a lot - Nanjo sometimes is allowed in too. I would think that the first three especially would recognize if Kinzo changed in any way.

Servants are especially questioned in Episode 2 - Kinzo didn't die in the First Twilight and Genji along with Shannon met with him to write down a will of some sorts - which we are never told of, if I remember correctly. So really what about them? Shannon has been working for Kinzo for 10 years and Genji has been employed since Krauss, Eva, Rudolph and Rosa were kids (if we are to trust the flashback at the start of Episode 3, which I'm pretty sure we can). If Shannon can't recognize Kinzo, then Genji at the least definitely should.

[Saerianne]

On the whole 'Truth' thing, I have a suggestion.
If we all assume that the red text is the truth from Beato's point of view, then we could go against points Beato has stated in red. For example, when she says that there is only 17 people on the island, that could mean that she is only aware if the 17 people. There could be others hidden that she hasn't come across, ect.

But then again, as Klashikari stated, the red text is pretty much something for us to build off. That pretty much ruins my suggestion there. On top of that, if we found out that everything that Beato said in red was wrong, it would mess everything up; the plot and our heads. The above was only something I wanted others to think about and see if they could add on or destroy it with points.

It's pretty badly done. XD

[HigurashinoUmineko]

Quick question about Goldsmith:

Does Goldsmith look any different from normal Kinzo? If so how?

[Haruyan]

On the whole 'Truth' thing, I have a suggestion.
If we all assume that the red text is the truth from Beato's point of view, then we could go against points Beato has stated in red. For example, when she says that there is only 17 people on the island, that could mean that she is only aware if the 17 people. There could be others hidden that she hasn't come across, ect.

But then again, as Klashikari stated, the red text is pretty much something for us to build off. That pretty much ruins my suggestion there. On top of that, if we found out that everything that Beato said in red was wrong, it would mess everything up; the plot and our heads. The above was only something I wanted others to think about and see if they could add on or destroy it with points.

It's pretty badly done. XD

I've thought of that too, because Beatrice doesn't state what truth according to whom. But like Klash said, that would destroy the whole premise of the game. Then again, I don't doubt Beatrice's red text, but I do doubt other character's red text.

[Klashikari]

The red truth was considered as absolute truth ever since it has been introduced, whoever uses it.
Episode 4 final puts an obvious emphasis on that.

[Rias]

Regarding red text, there's still a bit of room to manipulate.
Beatrice has stated in red that when she is reciting the truth, she will do it in red.
真実を語る時、赤を使うことにする
妾が赤で語ることは全て真実

However, she never cited that when other people uses it, it would also be the truth. Of course, no one else has cited in red that when they use it, they are speaking the truth. We just assumed that Ronove, Eva-Beatrice, Battler, Enje, LD, all spoke the truth when they were using red text. It's probably a safe assumption, but not absolute.

But on the same note, lately I've been pondering about the lines that mixes red text with normal white text. What intrigues me is the locations of the punctuation, how some of them actually isn't part of the red text.

俺の名は右代宮戦人。
俺の名は右代宮戦人だ。
俺は右代宮戦人だ…！


From that, we can see that perhaps without a red text full stop, the sentence isn't complete, and the truth might be something else if the sentence is complated, such as:



俺の名は右代宮戦人ではない。
俺の名は右代宮戦人ではない。
俺は右代宮戦人だと思ったら困るぜ

Which, sounds kinda reasonable (?). On that same token, the point I'm getting to is, the quote

右代宮戦人には罪がある。

is another incomplete sentence that is open to manipulate just like those "imaginary text" I made up. Note that the quotes after actually are stated in red fully.

そなたの罪で、人が死ぬ。
そなたの罪により、この島の人間が、大勢死ぬ。誰も逃さぬ、全て死ぬ。

In other words, Ushiromiya Battler isn't necessarily sinned, but "you" (Batter we see) still is.

Perhaps I'm just overthinking, but all of a sudden it seems it got a bit more complicated...:heh:

[crazysjd89]

I don't particularly like the thought of the red text not being true or not being completely true. Because if any of that was true, then that makes any part of the game with red text seem just completely pointless.

"Here's an important plot device.
Just kidding.
The End"

I don't mind the wording affecting it or parts said in white really aren't true (though I don't particularly believe this, either) but it would seem terrible to give all this information and then have it all be wrong.


Going back to Kinzo, this is my inspection, observations, and inferences in most of the scenes he appears in:


This one is probably something that happened before Kinzo died. Therefore, even though I think this is the real Kinzo, I think this is the most important scene to look at.

Points:

- Nanjo tells Kinzo he doesn't have long to live.

From the way this conversation goes, this is probably the first time Nanjo told Kinzo he will die shortly. This may have set motion for Kinzo to do something to make sure Beatrice's ritual is carried out. I think it'd be safe to bet Kinzo wanted to carry out the ritual himself, however, his remaining life span wouldn't go into the next family conference.

- Kinzo is completly adverse to writing a will, however, he mentions having one regret.

The one regret thing is probably something really important. It's probably what I said in the previous point, that he won't be able to revive Beatrice. This leads into the next point...

- Kinzo would give up anything to revive Beatrice and "see her smile".

This is one of my big points. Kinzo absolutely wanted Beatrice revived, however, he wouldn't be able to do it. So, what would be the logical thing to do? Give someone else incentive to do it for you. It's possible that he gave the title of head to someone, maybe someone who wouldn't be on Rokkenjima, even. In this way, all his servants would accept it. Genji and Nanjo would accept it to fulfill his wishes. Kanon and Shannon would accept it because they are "furniture". Kumasawa and Gohda never see "Kinzo", that I recall.

There is also a possibility that the person who he chose changes with each episode.

If we assume he got some person from the outside to do it, they could have hired one of the family members and offered them incentive to act on their part, or, if you want to go a bit Higurashi, given them some sort of drug that causes them to kill for Beatrice.

In this scene, Krauss, Nanjo, and Genji hear Kinzo cry out. However, under my Episode 1 theory that Krauss is the culprit, than this scene is easy. Krauss himself "became" Kinzo. Kinzo may have done this simply because Krauss would be the head anyway, or perhaps someone on the outside gave Krauss the title of the head, since he would know the island and mansion much better than any of the other 16.

However, this same assumption means we can look closely at the conversation and possibly find some hints to give credibility to this.

Points:
- In the narration, we are told Krauss didn't believe Kinzo would answer his calls.

This probably could point out that Krauss already knows Kinzo is dead. It'd be very hard to hide this fact from Krauss, in any episode.

- 親父はすでに死んでいる。……ここにいるのは、親父だったものの幻さ。

This line is very interesting to read, esspecially with this theory. I don't really have a point, other than pointing it out.

- It mentions how Kinzo is much like two people.

This might be a hint to someone trying to "be Kinzo", but also letting their own personality seep through.

In this scene, Kanon meets "Kinzo".

It's interesting to point out that this also happens when Natsuhi isn't with the others. This might mean that Natsuhi has become "Kinzo" this chapter.

This is one of the biggest speculated on scenes, that I have seen, when Natsuhi is told she has the One-Winged Eagle engraved in her heart. This may also be one of the biggest evidences for my theories.

Perhaps Natsuhi stepped in the room to not let Eva know Kinzo was dead, and instead she had a bit of a flashback.

In this theory, this flashback is huge. This flashback may be when Kinzo gave Natsuhi the title of "Head of the Ushiromiya" and entrusted her with reviving Beatrice, assuming my theory is correct.

To end this note, mixing this theory with my Episode 1 theory, I've come up with a more solid motive for Krauss to have murdered Natsuhi.

It is possible that Natsuhi was made the head, instead of Krauss. Krauss might have helped her with the killings, because he needed her, but when Beatrice's revival was over, he summoned Natsuhi with a letter, claiming he was the Head, and she was nothing.

Natsuhi goes to confront Krauss, but she doesn't have the drive to kill him, so Krauss can easily kill her first. Of course, there is no point in being the Head of a dead family, but it might have been Krauss's pride and slightly chauvinistic attitude, thinking it's impossible for a woman to best him.

Alternativly, perhaps someone off the island wanted him to do Beatrice's ritual so they could get the gold, somehow. Afterwards, he learned of Natsuhi becoming the Head. He was probably mad, but soon decided to use her, since both wanted to do the ritual. And after the typhoon passed, the people who hired Krauss might have killed him.

This is once again probably the real Kinzo.

In this scene, Kinzo is lamenting Beatrice, who Kanon sees is right behind him.

This scene is also preceded by Shanon telling Kanon about the "deep blue ocean". This might be a scene where Kinzo decided on Kanon being the next Head and reviving Beatrice, telling him he could be a "human".

This also solidifies my Rosa and Kanon working together theory, and gives me a few other theories.

For one, Rosa might have solved the riddle, or Kanon might have told her he would let her be the next head or let her recieve all the gold.

For the former, Kanon could have seen Rosa killing the six people, and they decided to work together.

For the latter, Kanon and Rosa both worked together and killed the six.

Another motive for Rosa might have been that she would become Beatrice. Because Rosa being Beatrice would make Maria love her and obey her and not be as spoiled. It also could be vice-versa, Rosa became the next Head, and got Kanon to work with her, in the scene where we see him kissing Beatrice's shoe.

As for "Kanon dying", aside from the theory I described much earlier, Jessica could have found out somehow that Kinzo was dead, that Kanon was the new Head, or that Kanon was involved in killing the 6. Jessica might have gone ballistic on him, and he killed her, maybe on accident. At this point, he "killed" Kanon as well, and just became Kinzo. Alternativly, if it was an accident where Kanon saw Jessica as Beatrice and killed her, he could have wanted to revive her, which would be a huge motive for him.


I don't have much to say on this scene, because like a few other scenes, I think this scene was a mix of the servants following Kinzo's orders, and the culprit forging an alibi (Rosa saying Shannon was with Kinzo.) I just thought this would be one to point out since a lot of people seem to think on this one too.

This one is particularly interesting because Battler himself sees Kinzo and Beatrice. However, he was slightly drunk and probably depressed, so giving into suggestions of Genji calling Rosa and Kanon "Kinzo-sama" and "Beatrice-sama", he might have seen them as such.

I grouped this all together, because it's pretty constant. I don't have much to say, because I've said it all pretty much in my main theory post.

In this one, I wonder if this points to Kinzo making some kind of will that says who the next head will be, and he puts them down, and the culprit showed them this, so they had to acknoledge this person as "Kinzo".

Furthermore, in Episode 3, Kyrie makes a good point about the culprit being arrogant by letting them try to solve the riddle, however, by that same logic, Episode 4's culprit is probably different and much less arrogant.

All the killings take place in about 2 hours, most everyone is kept from attempting to solve the riddle. Why couldn't Kumasawa and Gohda also try and solve the riddle with the children? The riddle is suppose to be for everyone and anyone. It is probably because the culprit was afraid that Kumasawa and Gohda, servants and people who are constantly on Rokkenjima, would know where the gold is, or would have many hints to it.

[rogerpepitone]

crazysjd:

I believe that Jessica created the Halloween party, including the envelope from Beatrice; somebody else hijacked it by adding the circle and corpses. She was targeted at the second twilight partly to shut her up.
Is this compatible with your Kanon theory?

Also: I don't think it's possible to construct something that is simultaneously a real magical ritual and a riddle with solution. Since Eva & Rosa were able to solve it as a riddle, it isn't a ritual. Kinzo knew its true meaning as a riddle, so he wouldn't have tried to perform it as a ritual, or try to get anyone else to do so. Whoever is doing the murders either failed to understand its meaning as a riddle, or was using it as a cover for crimes performed for other reasons.

[Haruyan]

In this scene, Kanon meets "Kinzo".

It's interesting to point out that this also happens when Natsuhi isn't with the others. This might mean that Natsuhi has become "Kinzo" this chapter.


Something curious I found and that might support your theory...

In the scene, Kinzo offers Kanon some sweets but Kanon refuses and then Kinzo says: "......Hmmm. .....So furniture doesn't eat things like sweets? ...Indeed."

Shouldn't Kinzo know that? And doesn't it seem a bit out of character that Kinzo would be kind to a furniture?

There's a crazier theory that I came up with, but it includes a bit of magic....

In EP3, Beatrice mentions that she was placed in a "cage of flesh", I think this could be understood as a homonculus, and homonculus are made by alchemists, a mixture of magic and science. So let's say that a bit of magic exists, would it be possible for Kinzo to transfer his soul/will/spirit into another body?

[crazysjd89]

crazysjd:

I believe that Jessica created the Halloween party, including the envelope from Beatrice; somebody else hijacked it by adding the circle and corpses. She was targeted at the second twilight partly to shut her up.
Is this compatible with your Kanon theory?

It's compatatible, however, I'm not sure of the plausibility of Jessica doing the Halloween Party. If it were anywhere else aside from the chapel, maybe, but even in the time where everyone was missing, Rosa was still terrified of entering the chapel. I find it hard to believe that anyone, exempt Battler, who doesn't know much of the chapel, would set up some Halloween Party in the chapel.

If I recall correctly, you said that Jessica who made the party gave the key to Maria, however, the culprit would have to know that the Chapel's key was in there, and then plan the killing of the six and the locked room in the few hours. Then there's also the fact that they wouldn't know of the Halloween Party either.

Also: I don't think it's possible to construct something that is simultaneously a real magical ritual and a riddle with solution. Since Eva & Rosa were able to solve it as a riddle, it isn't a ritual. Kinzo knew its true meaning as a riddle, so he wouldn't have tried to perform it as a ritual, or try to get anyone else to do so. Whoever is doing the murders either failed to understand its meaning as a riddle, or was using it as a cover for crimes performed for other reasons.

However, I think that is precisly why Kinzo would use it as a ritual. To force everyone to try and solve it, and under the chance they don't before they all die, Beatrice is revived. Kinzo was described as pretty eccentric before he died, so I wouldn't put it over him.

Although under the assumption that he didn't want the ritual carried out literally, he could have instead wanted someone to be the person to look over the riddle if anyone solves it or something.

In the scene, Kinzo offers Kanon some sweets but Kanon refuses and then Kinzo says: "......Hmmm. .....So furniture doesn't eat things like sweets? ...Indeed."

Shouldn't Kinzo know that? And doesn't it seem a bit out of character that Kinzo would be kind to a furniture?

Actually, that's a good thing to point out. I don't particularly imagine the male characters giving sweets, so it might pinpoint this Kinzo as female.

There's a crazier theory that I came up with, but it includes a bit of magic....

In EP3, Beatrice mentions that she was placed in a "cage of flesh", I think this could be understood as a homonculus, and homonculus are made by alchemists, a mixture of magic and science. So let's say that a bit of magic exists, would it be possible for Kinzo to transfer his soul/will/spirit into another body?

This is kind of what I think, only less magic and more superstitous. It might be that whoever Kinzo dubs as the next head sort of becomes multiple personalities, where they act like themselves and they act as Kinzo.

I don't like to use Higurashi knowledge much when solving this, however, I remember there was a TIP, where a doctor describes multiple personalities as an escape from reality, such as a poor person being rich. This could also be the case. This is their way to truly become the head, so they have the Kinzo personality. This could also explain Rosa being Beatrice, if we assume she is, it's her personality where her daughter is completly obedient to her.

[HigurashinoUmineko]

Ok I've seriously gotta ask:

What the heck is going on with Battler, Beelzebub, Ronove, and Beato? Are they hitting eachother? Are they fighting? I don't understand!!

[Klashikari]

Basically, Beelze is having fun with Battler, as she stole his breakfast.
However, on the meantime, Ronove pretended that Battler was deepdown depressed after Beato little trick from episode3, and Beato was pretty concerned. So Ronove suggested her to act all happy go lucky to lift up the mood.

And when both were meeting each other, it was too creepy and dumb looking, and beato immediately realized that Ronove tricked her (that battler was not cowering, he was plainly sleeping, no wonder why he didn't want to eat etc).

I would suggest you to wait a little bit, instead of rushing though without understand anything (huh, deja vu...?)

[rogerpepitone]

There are ways the killer could have figured it out. (Jessica's really only concerned about keeping it a surprise for Maria.)

- Jessica explicitly tells a servant about her plans, asking for advice or for help setting up.
- Jessica gives a servant a shopping list. Said servant later notices the key disappearing and hears about Maria's envelope. Puts 2 and 2 together.
- Servant notices Jessica taking supplies off the boat / Jessica asks for help unloading it. Rest occurs like previous.
- (Unlikely with red text info, but...) Jessica hires a children's party entertainer to play the role of Beatrice. She'd probably clear this with her parents & notify Gohda about the extra meal.

[crazysjd89]

The first one is probable. The second and third one, I don't think are so probable. For one thing, apprantly noone ever went to the chapel, so they probably don't pay much attetion to the key. Another thing is that the envelope was pretty much kept guarded with Maria. Also, it'd be pretty hard to infer a key is in the envelope, from looks alone. The last one, as you said, is not really possible.

Well, it doesn't matter if I debunk the last three, just having one possible suggestion is enough, however, there are still a few other things that make the scenario improbably.

The first being what I mentioned before: Everyone is terrified of intruding the chapel and being punished by Kinzo. The only way I could see Jessica doing it is if she knew Kinzo were dead, which then everyone would probably know it, since I doubt she had motive to hide it, unless she were the culprit. Perhaps she had accidently killed, which is why she kept quiet about it, or she didn't want her parents to get in trouble for hiding it. But in this case, she would have to get Maria to enter the chapel somehow, which would be hard with all the people who believe Kinzo is alive. I guess she could get her to do it somehow when the kids are alone.

Anyway, another thing is that the key was given at the same time as the Beatrice announcement letter (or so we're shown). Even under the assumption that Jessica wrote a letter announcing Beatrice was here for Maria, I doubt she would do it in such a creepy way.

Also, not to say that Jessica hates Maria, but do you really think she likes her enough to pull off such an elaborate scheme?

[rogerpepitone]

Battler apparently didn't attach any great importance to the chapel. ("does this chapel have some special meaning...") (By comparison, he did remember the legend of the witch of the forest.) George didn't seem to either. Gohda seemed uneasy about it, but not the way Rosa was. Maria did, but only because she'd gotten in trouble for entering it once. Is there any evidence that Jessica viewed the chapel with the same fear as the parents?

I just played through part again and noticed that, while Beatrice said in red that it was impossible to unlock the door to the chapel without the key. But that's irrelevant. What matters is whether it was possible to lock the door without the key, and AFAICT, she said nothing about that. (Can anybody who knows Japanese check the phrasing?) So maybe the key never left the envelope the whole night. Maybe Jessica didn't plan the envelope, but when she heard of it, she figured one of the servants had added it in.

[Haruyan]

crazysjd89 had already posted the red truths, but I'll repost them for you.

生死は捨て置く。６人は確かに扉から入った
(Ignoring the fact of if they were living or dead. The six of them definitly walked through that door.)

礼拝堂の鍵は一本しか存在しない!
(Only one key to the chapel exists!)

礼拝堂の施錠は礼拝堂の鍵以外では開錠不可能!!
(As for locking the chapel, it's completely impossible with any key other than the chapel's!!)

礼拝堂の扉は、施錠時には如何なる方法での出入りも拒む!!
(There is no method to enter or exit the door of the chapel when it is locked!!)

６人は確かに“この正面扉”から入った!!
(The six people certainly entered from "this front door"!!)

楼座は今朝、確かに真里亞の手提げの中から封筒を取り出し、そこから正真正銘の礼拝堂の鍵を手 に入れたぞ。
(This morning, Rosa removed an envelope from Maria's purse and thereby obtained the genuine key to the chapel.)

妾が真里亞に預けた封筒の中身は、確かに礼拝堂の鍵だった。
(The contents of the envelope which I gave to Maria was certainly the key to the chapel.)

妾が真里亞に渡した封筒と、楼座が開封した封筒は同一のものであるぞ!!
(The envelope which I gave to Maria, and the one Rosa opened are the same envelopes!!)

I don't think Jessica planned all that scheme, I think it was two culprits/culprit+accomplice, but not Jessica. I also believe that the door was left open after obtaining the key to the chapel and then given to Maria, I still have to come up with an idea about how to lock it. Is it possible to close it without a key? Beatrice says that no other key will work, what if it wasn't closed with a key? Idk, idk....

On the other hand, why does Beatrice put enfasis on "this front door"?

[ClockWorkAngel]

I'm pretty sure that there's no restrictions on how the Chapel will lock. Beato never stated that it was always locked, it is possible that the culprit opened the chapel and left it like that. What I believe is that Rosa is an accomplice to the murders. The culprit opened the door, then did the deed and hid the bodies. Rosa then would go and lock the door. That's why she could've been drugged and still have a hand in it. I have a feeling that the Chapel has multiple entrances, maybe something hidden.

Kinzo causes alot of headaches and we should leave him be until we have an idea when exactely he died and what those scenes actually mean. Is Kinzo simply an excuse? An alibi?

[crazysjd89]

Battler apparently didn't attach any great importance to the chapel. ("does this chapel have some special meaning...") (By comparison, he did remember the legend of the witch of the forest.) George didn't seem to either. Gohda seemed uneasy about it, but not the way Rosa was. Maria did, but only because she'd gotten in trouble for entering it once. Is there any evidence that Jessica viewed the chapel with the same fear as the parents?

Certainly, there is no 100% proof that Jessica is afraid of the chapel, I infer it.

Your reasoning is this:

Not Afraid of the chapel: Battler, George
Slightly Afraid of the chapel: Gohda
Afraid of the chapel: Rosa

So then, if we look at what these have in common amongest themselves it's this:

George and Battler do not go to Rokkenjima all the time, only every family conference and maybe a couple of times between that.

Gohda is a relatively new servant who works there, and I'm assuming he has not truly met Kinzo

Rosa grew up on Rokkenjima.

Therefore, despite the fact that Jessica is not a child of Kinzo, she still fits in with Rosa and the other children, because she grew up on Rokkenjima with Kinzo influencing her. She has even complained about how he has scolded her before, as I recall. Of course, like I said, this is not 100% proof, and I think your theory still has a chance of being true.

On the other hand, why does Beatrice put enfasis on "this front door"?

Because when she said "They certainly entered through the door", Battler was saying how that doesn't specifically mean the front door, so she amended it and emphasized it.

[rogerpepitone]

The second generation was raised directly by Kinzo, and he was pretty actively involved in their upbringing, back when chapel was built. He'd become fairly reclusive by the time the third generation was growing up.

Darn. She doesn't say it in episode 2, but in episode 3:
ちなみに、６つの部屋の扉や窓はいずれも普通。@オートロックのような、鍵を使用せず施錠できるような仕掛 けは存在しない。@くっくっくっく、どうだよォ、綺麗なモンだろおぉおおおぉ？？？　うっひゃっひゃっひゃ ああ！」/
Furthermore, all of the doors and windows in the 6 rooms are normal.`@` No device exists which can lock them without a key, such as an auto-lock.`@` *cackle*cackle*, what do you think, it's beautiful, isn't iiiiiiiiiiiit??? Uhhyahhyahhyaaahh!"`/

The "party" is incongruous; it required a number of items that wouldn't normally be on the island, so it must have been planned in advance. None of the other crime scenes had any props set out that wouldn't ordinarily be on the island. So I think that the party was planned by someone other than "Beatrice", and she took the opportunity to hijack it somehow.

I think the biggest mistake we can make is attributing all odd events to direct actions of the killer. For example, regarding Natsuhi's door in ep. 1, there were suggestions that the bracelet kept Beatrice out, or that somebody scratched the door to threaten Natsuhi. Did anybody suggest that one of the victims, while fleeing the killer, tried to get into Natsuhi's room, but couldn't get it open in time?

The riddle / ritual part still bothers me. crazysjd suggested that the killer, acting on Kinzo's orders, is trying to urge them to work on the riddle, but then why make the murders resemble the epitaph? Wouldn't that be likely to draw them away from viewing it as a riddle?

But if the killer knows the true meaning and is trying to distract them from it, why keep mentioning the epitaph and keep suggesting they solve it? If she'd just shut up, they would've focused on survival?

So I think the killer is somebody who believes that the epitaph really is a ritual, and therefore doesn't know the real meaning of the epitaph, particularly that it is just a riddle.

[Haruyan]

The second generation was raised directly by Kinzo, and he was pretty actively involved in their upbringing, back when chapel was built. He'd become fairly reclusive by the time the third generation was growing up.

Darn. She doesn't say it in episode 2, but in episode 3:
ちなみに、６つの部屋の扉や窓はいずれも普通。@オートロックのような、鍵を使用せず施錠できるような仕掛 けは存在しない。@くっくっくっく、どうだよォ、綺麗なモンだろおぉおおおぉ？？？　うっひゃっひゃっひゃ ああ！」/
Furthermore, all of the doors and windows in the 6 rooms are normal.`@` No device exists which can lock them without a key, such as an auto-lock.`@` *cackle*cackle*, what do you think, it's beautiful, isn't iiiiiiiiiiiit??? Uhhyahhyahhyaaahh!"`/

The "party" is incongruous; it required a number of items that wouldn't normally be on the island, so it must have been planned in advance. None of the other crime scenes had any props set out that wouldn't ordinarily be on the island. So I think that the party was planned by someone other than "Beatrice", and she took the opportunity to hijack it somehow.

I think the biggest mistake we can make is attributing all odd events to direct actions of the killer. For example, regarding Natsuhi's door in ep. 1, there were suggestions that the bracelet kept Beatrice out, or that somebody scratched the door to threaten Natsuhi. Did anybody suggest that one of the victims, while fleeing the killer, tried to get into Natsuhi's room, but couldn't get it open in time?

Yes, but that might apply for EP3 only, not EP2. It might be a stretch though. But even if there is no auto-lock system, there are other ways to close the door. What about a master key? Beatrice could say that there is only one key specific for the chapel, but a master key wouldn't fit that definition because it's not "chapel only". Another stretch, I know, but we should squeeze out all the possibilities we can.

The riddle / ritual part still bothers me. crazysjd suggested that the killer, acting on Kinzo's orders, is trying to urge them to work on the riddle, but then why make the murders resemble the epitaph? Wouldn't that be likely to draw them away from viewing it as a riddle?

But if the killer knows the true meaning and is trying to distract them from it, why keep mentioning the epitaph and keep suggesting they solve it? If she'd just shut up, they would've focused on survival?

So I think the killer is somebody who believes that the epitaph really is a ritual, and therefore doesn't know the real meaning of the epitaph, particularly that it is just a riddle.

I think that in most (if not all) episode, there is more than one killer, with different motivations. Motivation 1: urges the survivors to solve the riddle, promising to stop the murders if the riddle is solved.

Motivation 2: tries to distract the survivors so he/she can work on the riddle without worrying about the others caring about it.

Motivation 3: honestly believes that the ritual is real.

There's a lot of holes in this theory, but it's the only thing I can come up with.

[Dark Angel Suigintou]

Hello I'm one of the new people here, well I have a quick question, is there any place any of you can recommend where I can buy umineko no naku koro ni volumes 1-4, I'm new to this whole thing an well I'm kinda confused to how this all works. :/

[Haruyan]

I think you're looking for this thread (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=7390) instead. You can get all four arcs if you just buy the fourth game.

[Jan-Poo]

In my opinion the "money" motivation just doesn't make sense. Considering that so far this is the only real motivation that has been postulated inside the story it is even less probable to be true. Anyway there are many flaws in this theory, it has been said several times that killing the four brothers was the most illogical thing to do since they are the ones who are most likely able to solve the riddle. In fact we know Rosa and Eva made it.

I personally go with motivation 4

4) The culprit's motivation is vengeance. S/he has a reason to hate anyone in the Ushiromoya's family and everyone that is related to it. This explains why the culprit wants all of them dead, this also explain the unnecessary brutality. As for the "ritual" parts, i think the culprit won't be just satisfied by killing them all, s/he wants to make them believe that it is actually the Witch that wants them dead.

There is a way to explain all of that logically. Let's assume that the culprit is somehow related to the real Beatrice that died in the past. What Kinzo did to that person was an horrible thing, he kept a human life segregated from the rest of the world for his own pleasure. That person was like a bird in a cage, she never knew anything about the real world, and then she died. Guess who is responsible for this death? But Rosa didn't say a thing, she just left that body there for the "umineko" to feast on. Then again maybe Kinzo and his servants ultimately found that body, but everything was covered up, noone knew about the existence of that woman, noone cared, justice was never done.
Kinzo's trusted servants definitely knew about her, we know that Beatrice's first reaction after seeing Rosa was "are you the new gardener?". The servants knew, which means Genji knew, and also... Nanjo knew that as well. You see, you cannot keep someone's existence secret that easily, unless you have a trusted doctor that takes care of that person when she is sick.

This is enough to justify the idea that someone just went crazy knowing all of this and that s/he decided to do "justice" his own way. Is there a better way to accomplish all of that than making the victim herself do all the retribution? Beatrice is a witch, they say, they wanted to cover up the whole story with such a preposterous fantasy, well... the culprit might have thought to play along with that and make the legend live.

I know this is quite a lot of speculations from my part, but it is an intriguing perspective isn't it ^^;

[Haruyan]

Let's assume that the culprit is somehow related to the real Beatrice that died in the past.

(Just for the lulz.)

Then, the real culprit is.....

VIRGILIAAA!!!

[rogerpepitone]

Jan-poo: Do you have a reason why your killer waited so long?

[Jan-Poo]

@Haruyan
lol why not? I think someone already postulated that "Virgilia" aka "Kumasawa" is the first Beatrice that gave Kinzo the ingots. However there is also the possibility that a third Beatrice exists. I mean once a player always a player, if Kinzo wanted to have his Beatrice that much that he went as far as to "create" one, he might have tried it again.

@Rogerpepitone
That's a nice question, however one possibility is that the culprit is the third Beatrice i mentioned earlier, therefore before 1986 she was just too young.
Another explanation could be Kinzo's death. Yeah i haven't played ep4 yet but this info leaked anyway -_- not a big damage since i strongly suspected that already. Anyway this is the first family meeting after Kinzo's death isn't it? this might be the trigger. Maybe for some reason the culprit couldn't act before that.

[Haruyan]

If the killer really wants it too look like the witch is doing the murders, then of course he's gonna wait until there's enough people to kill as in the ritual, don't you think? or perhaps s/he was waiting for Battler specifically.....Battler's sin that Beatrice mentiones comes to mind....

[Jan-Poo]

The problem is i think there were exactly the same number of persons, we got Battler this time and we lose Ange. I think it is said in episode two that Gohda was used to prepare dinner for 18 persons. Unless this isn't a mistake that means that Ange was previously there.

This therefore only leaves the option that the culprit was waiting for Battler specifically.

[Marion]

True, but then again you need at least 13 people. Now in past years these people were definitely around.

Kinzo
Krauss
Natsuhi
Jessica
Eva
Hideyoshi
George
Rudolph
Kyrie/Asumu (Asumu replaces Kyrie before 1980)
Battler/Ange (Until 1980, since Battler's away from the entire family for six years. Ange pretty much replaces him at around 1980, since she's 6 during 1986)
Rosa
Maria (Starting 1977/78)
Genji
Shannon (Starting 1976)
Kanon (Starting 1983)
-A couple servants

(Note: I didn't include Nanjo, since we don't know when he exactly started frequenting the island. I don't think Rosa's husband ever visited either, since no one in the family knows who he is. Also the servants have shifts, but Shannon, Kanon and Genji presumably live on the island despite their days off and what not.)

So looking at the list, if we don't put in possibilities of someone not being there due to sickness (besides Battler, since he isn't there at all after 1980 til 86) then technically the culprit has enough people for the ritual just from the family + Genji, Shannon and Kanon.

However, I think "Kinzo" (who apparently started all of this) said that there needed to be enough people first, since "Kinzo's" goal is not to die so he can meet Beatrice again.

Although if this is the case, then the culprit most likely DID wait for Battler - but for what reason. All they need is 13 people for the ritual.

Also, does anyone know when this riddle appeared? I think it appeared with the giant oil painting of Beatrice a couple years before 1986, right?

[crazysjd89]

I haven't thought much on the scope of things outside the island, which I need to pick up, since there's a high probability that someone from the outside is involved.


As far as a Mastermind goes, while it is very likely they are connected to Beatrice, there is also a possibility they are not aswell.

Kasumi - She absolutely despises Kyrie, and hates the entire Ushiromiya family. Why she would send those three people who are indirectly connected to the Ushiromiya family money, I'm not sure.

Kuwasawa's son, Nanjo's son, and Ange - These three recieved a bank combination that gave them a lot of money. It's unlikely that Ange was behind this, however, the other two could have been, possibly even together. If it's only one, they would send money out to other people in order to look less suspicious.

I forgot how much money was in there, but if you got a choice between 3 million dollars and 1 million dollars but having a much less chance of looking suspicous you would probably chose the latter.

Ootsuki - This case has made him become famous, and not only that, he mentions how he still dreams of using magic, so he used Rokkenjima.

For Okonogi and Amakusa, I'm not so sure of a motive. You could say Okonogi did it in Episode 3 so he would become a chairman, however, there would need to be a way he could have predicted this before the massacre.


The two message bottles are also worth looking at. And I have been for a bit now.

For one thing, we know that no less than two bottles were written and thrown out at sea. There were probably more, though. Looking at it from the person's perspective, they would want their message to absolutely reach someone, since there is no point in sending a message you hope is sunk. Chaining this with the fact that there are 2 or more bottles with different messages, we can infer that the events detailed in the pages might not be as important as they appear. It might be a different kind of message.

The probability of the culprit or mastermind trying to make it look like a witch seems very unlikely. If that were there goal, they would have sent several bottles with the "witch explanation".

"Who am I?"

As I outlined in my theory, I think that she could be "belief", however, this is not the only possiblity, for example, say if the Ship Captain were Beatrice. He comes to the island and sees the dead corpses of the 17, so he quickly returns, not knowing Battler is still alive, probably wondering around the forest, and Battler ends up dying. In this way, you could say the Captain "killed" Battler.

Perhaps the bottles really are an "SOS", it's this Beatrice who wants to know who she is.


Now for what Ange saw. I think it's something that she looked at in "love", which made her realize something. Amakusa and the Captain do not have this "love", so it doesn't make sense to them.

There are many things I think it could be, for example, Maria drew on the wall in crayon. To the captain and Amakusa, it's just a kid's prank, to Ange, it's probably something about magic.

From her reaction, it's probably something relating Maria and Beatrice.

That's as far as my inferences have reached for now, hopefully I'll be able to extend it some more after rereading a few scenes.

[Jan-Poo]

Also, does anyone know when this riddle appeared? I think it appeared with the giant oil painting of Beatrice a couple years before 1986, right?

If i'm not mistaken it's been there for the last two years.

About Battler, yes somehow it seems like whoever is behind all this wanted him to be there. The question is: why is Ange unrelevant? If you think about it on ep1 ep2 and ep3, she always ends up being the only heir of the vast ushiromiya's wealth.

Wether the motivation is money or vengeance, why Ange is left alive? Unless everyone in the ushiromiya has some sort of crime to pay for, except Ange?

I don't think Rosa's husband ever visited either

I asked this already but got no answer... is there a reason for thinking Maria's father is Rosa's Husband? Rosa isn't married, isn't she? ^^;;

[chronotrig]

But on the same note, lately I've been pondering about the lines that mixes red text with normal white text. What intrigues me is the locations of the punctuation, how some of them actually isn't part of the red text.

俺の名は右代宮戦人。
俺の名は右代宮戦人だ。
俺は右代宮戦人だ…！


Nice one, Rias. Looks like the Umineko 2ch thread found your post and started commenting on it, which means there's a chance that Ryuukishi will hear about it eventually.

My guess is that it's a typo, but who knows. Seeing those two you pointed out literally two lines apart but with the opposite style, it makes me wonder. Ryuukishi will probably do something if it's just a typo. Most of them (but not all) in ep2 had the punctuation outside the red, but ep3 was almost half and half.

And it's not like he hasn't had his mind on punctuation before.
When they released a performance patch for EP3 earlier, they also changed a few kanji errors, as well as this:
６つの部屋には誰も隠れていない！」 -> ６つの部屋には誰も隠れていない！」

Probably doesn't mean anything, but who knows.
I guess you could argue that if he went back and changed this one, why didn't he do the same for the dozens of lines without the sentence ender in red?

[Rias]

Nice one, Rias. Looks like the Umineko 2ch thread found your post and started commenting on it, which means there's a chance that Ryuukishi will hear about it eventually.

My guess is that it's a typo, but who knows. Seeing those two you pointed out literally two lines apart but with the opposite style, it makes me wonder. Ryuukishi will probably do something if it's just a typo. Most of them (but not all) in ep2 had the punctuation outside the red, but ep3 was almost half and half.

And it's not like he hasn't had his mind on punctuation before.
When they released a performance patch for EP3 earlier, they also changed a few kanji errors, as well as this:
６つの部屋には誰も隠れていない！」 -> ６つの部屋には誰も隠れていない！」

Probably doesn't mean anything, but who knows.
I guess you could argue that if he went back and changed this one, why didn't he do the same for the dozens of lines without the sentence ender in red?

Well it's true that Ryukishi07 has made typo here and there for ep1~4 :heh:, so I dunno if I'm over-thinking too much or perhaps actually onto something...

Speaking of Ryukishi07 reading 2ch posts...it's kinda funny. Cuz from ep2~4 we know that he's been defusing alot of theories and claims that were popular on and originated from 2ch, so we know that he's probably has been reading some of them. However, recently I've read that interview with him (and BT I think? or was it just with his brother) on dengeki online, and he totally shot down that claim of Ange x Mammon originated from 2ch :heh:

[theacefrehley]

If i'm not mistaken it's been there for the last two years.

About Battler, yes somehow it seems like whoever is behind all this wanted him to be there. The question is: why is Ange unrelevant? If you think about it on ep1 ep2 and ep3, she always ends up being the only heir of the vast ushiromiya's wealth.

Wether the motivation is money or vengeance, why Ange is left alive? Unless everyone in the ushiromiya has some sort of crime to pay for, except Ange?



I asked this already but got no answer... is there a reason for thinking Maria's father is Rosa's Husband? Rosa isn't married, isn't she? ^^;;

According to EP4 (Rosa speaking to Maria):
あんたと一緒に幸せな家庭を築けたらと思ったわよ…。……でも、あんたが生まれる直前にあいつは蒸発したわ 。

The guy (Maria's father) disappeared before Maria was born.
And Rosa doesn't have a husband. She just fools around with boyfriends recently. (don't know if she already had one, one day, though)

[rogerpepitone]

If the whole motive is revenge for Beatrice's death in 1967, why did the killer wait nearly 20 years for revenge?

Most of the answers proposed don't really make sense. (Why would the killer wait for 13 people to be on the island, when the epitaph wouldn't be posted for many years?)

Maybe the killer didn't know he/she had a motive until this year. Perhaps Kinzo, realizing his time was almost up, made a deathbed confession.

Another thing that's been bothering me is the typhoon. It's not something that could be predicted well in advance, but it seems to be a crucial part of events. Is it something the killer was planning on, or did it completely frotz up the plan?

[Jan-Poo]

Not to mention Krauss's personal boat was conveniently not availabe because it was under repair.


We do see a scene where Kinzo tells Shannon to write his last wills. This might have actually happened (just not at that exact time), thus giving to whoever is the culprit more insight about Kinzo's (wrong)doings.

[crazysjd89]

I don't think you have to look much further then Episode 1, for how a "typhoon can be predicted". Rudolph and Eva are complaining about how the family conference is always in the busy season and typhoon season.

[chronotrig]

I don't think you have to look much further then Episode 1, for how a "typhoon can be predicted". Rudolph and Eva are complaining about how the family conference is always in the busy season and typhoon season.

But Battler said (and everyone else agreed) that he was used to hearing the sound of the seagulls' cries when he showed up on the island. So it doesn't seem like a typhoon on the actual day of the conference has ever happened before.

It does seem to be a bit of a long shot, unless the crime was somehow planned a few hours, or at most a couple days earlier.



And about Ryuukishi's interview. He basically said that the epitaph can be solved right now, provided that we know some certain piece (or more than one) of obscure but common knowledge that hasn't been mentioned in the game. (His example being the fact that 'night' and 'knight' sound the same in English).

...And he also said it was so complicated that some members on his staff forget the details from time to time even though he told them.

Well, it's nice to know that there's at least SOME chance of figuring the riddle out.

[Jan-Poo]

Uhm and now that you mention it Jessica says that it is not unusual for her to be unable to go to school or to get back home because of bad weather. This means that such situations are not really rare.

Krauss's boat being not available is more improbable, unless it was sabotaged.

But Battler said (and everyone else agreed) that he was used to hearing the sound of the seagulls' cries when he showed up on the island. So it doesn't seem like a typhoon on the actual day of the conference has ever happened before.

Or the whole theory behind umineko's disappearance is flawed?

[rogerpepitone]

Not just that a typhoon occurs, but a typhoon occurs at such a time and place as to strand them on Rokkenjima. If Carmen had occurred a day earlier, they'd be stuck on the mainland. A day later, and they'd have been able to leave on time without incident. If Carmen had taken a different path, travel might not have been disrupted at all. Even a few days before, George only knew that his plans might be disrupted. I think the overall crime had been in planning for several months, so the killers couldn't have been depending on travel being disrupted.

In his will or a deathbed confession, Kinzo mentioned something about 1967 Beatrice's death. This led to a revenge crime against her killer / the whole family.

Crimes were masterminded by Nanjo and X. In episodes 1 and 2, with the savage killings, X was behind the first twilight, and the goal there was to get 1967 Beatrice's killer directly.

In episode 3, Rosa's confession changed things. This time, Nanjo was behind the first twilight. (Possibly he'd had a fatal altercation with X; I think X is most likely to be Genji (if Kinzo's death is covered up, Genji & Nanjo must be involved) or Kumasawa (Kumasawa & Nanjo die together in 1 & 2).) In any case, after Rosa's death, Nanjo's desire for revenge was fulfilled...

And it's making less sense as I try to type it out. Or maybe Genji didn't hear about Rosa's confession until after the first twilight.

[Ankoku-chan]

Been meaning to ask, is there any KanonxJessica in Ep. 4?




XD

[crazysjd89]

^Yes there is. But I do not think it would be good to explain details of it, heh.

[Ankoku-chan]

^Yes there is. But I do not think it would be good to explain details of it, heh.

Pleeeaase~ :kisskiss:

[blitz1/2]

Been meaning to ask, is there any KanonxJessica in Ep. 4?




XD

I'm a lot more interested in future AngeXBattler. Go for it!

[theacefrehley]

Random bullshit

As for baby swapping, just thougt about it

Beatrice bluffs a lot
She deceived Battler with that stuff about Asumu
Ange defeated it saying he just needed to be Rudolf's son to break her trick and Beato left it as it is...

Now I'm kind of frightened that Battler is not even Rudolf's son anymore :heh:
Now I'm kind of wondering if a baby swapping could have happened between Natsuhi+Krauss and Rudol+some woman, after all, their sons are the same age... and that would put Battler, a male, as the heir... :uhoh:
Whatever...

[Haruyan]

I have a crazier theory for that.

What if.........






Battler is Kinzo's son?

[blitz1/2]

I have a crazier theory for that.

What if.........






Battler is Kinzo's son?

Wow...But I don't think Ryukishi would mindf*ck us to that extent :heh:

[Haruyan]

Well!! Who says he won't!! :heh:

But don't take it seriously, I mostly said it for the lulz *turnsouttobetrue*

[crazysjd89]

It's not that Battler is Kinzo's son or grandson, but Battler is actually Kinzo.

Battler beats Beatrice after the 8th game, but after playing with her for so long, he became fond of her, so when she disappeared, he became depressed. He finally went to Lambdadelta, pleading for her to send him in a Kakera where he could be with Beatrice.

So Battler was sent back and born as Ushiromiya Kinzo. This is why Kinzo was able to invest and get money in just the right ways. Since he was Battler before, he knew what would happen. This is also how Beatrice granted Kinzo all this gold.

Simultaneously with this, Ange could no longer exist with Battler. Even though she tried to be a good sister, she was lonely now. Lambdadelta made a deal with her, sending her back in time, to become Beatrice. This also means that the person who taught Beatrice magic is the person who taught Ange magic, which means Maria is Virgillia. This explains why Virgillia looks so much like Rosa.

This also explains Battler's sin. Because he is Kinzo, so he is responsible for everyone being killed.

Shannon and Kanon, who decided to continue to serve Battler were also sent back. Kanon would become Genji and Shannon would become Kumasawa. It's interesting to point out, Kanon and Genji follow the "furniture" mentality while Shannon and Kumasawa follow the "human servants" mentality.

[Saerianne]

It's not that Battler is Kinzo's son or grandson, but Battler is actually Kinzo.

Battler beats Beatrice after the 8th game, but after playing with her for so long, he became fond of her, so when she disappeared, he became depressed. He finally went to Lambdadelta, pleading for her to send him in a Kakera where he could be with Beatrice.

So Battler was sent back and born as Ushiromiya Kinzo. This is why Kinzo was able to invest and get money in just the right ways. Since he was Battler before, he knew what would happen. This is also how Beatrice granted Kinzo all this gold.

Simultaneously with this, Ange could no longer exist with Battler. Even though she tried to be a good sister, she was lonely now. Lambdadelta made a deal with her, sending her back in time, to become Beatrice. This also means that the person who taught Beatrice magic is the person who taught Ange magic, which means Maria is Virgillia. This explains why Virgillia looks so much like Rosa.

This also explains Battler's sin. Because he is Kinzo, so he is responsible for everyone being killed.

Shannon and Kanon, who decided to continue to serve Battler were also sent back. Kanon would become Genji and Shannon would become Kumasawa. It's interesting to point out, Kanon and Genji follow the "furniture" mentality while Shannon and Kumasawa follow the "human servants" mentality.

Man...
That's a mind****
XD

[Marion]

I have the best crazy theory of you all:

Battler was dead all along :O!

Anyways, I have a SERIOUS question for us all:

The letter in the bottle came from Episode 1, right? So how did that kid get that letter in Episode 3's universe? And all the other letters - are those records from previous games as well?

[crazysjd89]

Right now, I'm thinking the letters are similar to the Hinamizawa Disaster. It only appears under certain conditions.

What other letters though? I only recall the one from Episode 1 and the one in Episode 4, which is refering to Episode 3.

[Jan-Poo]

Just finished to read! è_é/
well uhm no comments yet? °°
guess i'm gonna start it


I already know that ep4 would focus on Ange and the 1998 but i didn't expect that this whole huge first patch would be 99% about that °°. Of the game on Rokkenjima i've seen very little so far.

The story of Ange is very sad as it was anticipated on ep4, but surprisingly Maria's situation is even worse. It was already apparent that Rosa wasn't the best mother out there, but the general idea is that it was because she was stressed unsecure and unable to cope with raising a child alone. In the beginning when Maria's birthday is shown i even thought that she was capable of being a vey good mother. I particularly appreciated the fact that she wanted to make a stuffed animal with her own hands while it would have been a lot easier and faster to buy one. She also acted nice at the resturant and all.
Sakutaro was something that really cheared Maria up, and it is wonderful how Ryukishi was able to created that contrast of sadness (from reality) and joyous happiness (from the fantasy world). The "Sakutaro no ganbari monogatari" BGM is an awesome music that really made me feel that happyness. Sakutaro is cute purehearted and unsecure, he really makes you want to hug him, the friend that any children would want to play with. We then learn that Maria actually had many friends other than sakutaro and i guess we are going to see them in the later episodes. But i digress i was talking about Rosa. It was bad already that she let a 9 (or even less) year old girl being all alone at home and walk outside at night, but i could somehow justify her if it was for work. Still... get a damn babysitter Rosa! What a shock when it turns out that Rosa went to Atami with her boyfriend leaving her little child alone. What the hell is wrong with Rosa? Even worse she did it again and that's when Maria happened to lose the key. I really do not understand how is that the social worker didn't take custody of Maria not even after beeing yelled at by Rosa, not even after being showed that histerical reaction, not even after being pushed, not even after Rosa "killed" Sakutaro in front of her daughter. I think that there's no way any civilized society would let such a mother to keep her parenting rights.

Not like Ange was treated any better but at least Eva knew better than Rosa and she didn't do anything that would strip her from her parenting rights. It was interesting to see the interactions between Ange and the seven sisters. It is funny how these girls get more and more relevance in the story each new episode. I think i'm beginning to understand what is exactly "magic" in the umineko's world. It looks like the chances of becoming a witch greatly increases if you are a girl and if you have a miserable life. In this sense Maria, Ange and Beatrice (the one in the kuwadorian) are perfect candidates. Magic then is a way to escape reality, but the more one believes in it the more this "fantasy" becomes real, except it isn't real. The part when Mammon tells Ange to kill first and then they would help is pretty straightforward. Basically the "witch" has to do the killing herself, and then she can imagine that her furniture did it, and that will become her truth. Maria also she's actually the one that talks instead of Sakutaro, but by doing that then the "magic" takes places and Sakutaro talks on his own. That's what magic really is. If everyone believes in magic then magic becomes the truth, except it's not the truth. I think that whoever is behind the crimes in Rokkenjima believes in this kind of magic.

The discussion between the witch hunter professor and Ange enforces this idea. I actually see a similarity with Higurashi here. Miyo's notes and messages in the bottles. That's basically the same thing, in both cases they are written by a supposed victim of the tragedy, in both cases they are written by the real mind behind the tragedy and Lambdadelta is behind both of them. Also in both cases there are different versions of the same story and in both cases those documents are responsible for the creation of a legend.

I also want to mention Okonogi, Kasumi and Amakusa. Three new characters make an appearance. Okonogi seems all right but why is he graphically portrayed like a bastard? Amakusa looks like he will become a powerful ally on Bernkastel side, but there's still much to learn about this guy. Then there's Kasumi... whow... she really IS scary. She looks like she could easily make Ange wish that Eva never died.

Battler finally came to understand that maybe Kinzo is not on Rokkenjima, oh wait.. actually it was Kyrie and Battler realized it thanx to her. Well what's more important is that he finally begun to contemplate the possibility that there might not be exactly 18 persons on the island.
The BLUE thing is interesting but i don't really understand what is its purpose, i mean storywise. Of course Beatrice can refuse to state red truths, but in the end it's her loss if she does. Red truths are not convenient for her but at the same time they are pretty much the only weapon she has, if she doesn't use them she can't win.

I think Lambdadelta is well aware of that, she basically pretty much understand that each time Beatrice uses a red truth she scores a point and loses one. Indeed this game will never end if it keeps going this way.

Oh i laughed so much when Lambdadelta said that blonde girls are stupid. I hope that Bernkastel will tell her the same thing in the end XD

[crazysjd89]

Why do you think Kasumi is scary? Don't you want to have some nice hot tea with her in her tea room? :heh:

The reason not stating red is benefical to Beatrice is because of process of cancelization. If you're given 3 options, and 2 of them are canceled out, the only one remaining is the third one. Therefore, by confirming everything Battler wanted, Battler was able to cancel out many possible theories. With blue she only has to state one thing that makes it impossible.

As an example, in the board game, Clue, when a person makes an assumption and you have the "person" and "place" card they assumed, you would show them the person card first, so that they waste more time in the "place", thinking it might be the real one, and then when you no longer have a person or weapon, you show them the place.

[tcaz2]

Just finished to read! è_é/
well uhm no comments yet? °°
guess i'm gonna start it



The BLUE thing is interesting but i don't really understand what is its purpose, i mean storywise. Of course Beatrice can refuse to state red truths, but in the end it's her loss if she does. Red truths are not convenient for her but at the same time they are pretty much the only weapon she has, if she doesn't use them she can't win.

I think Lambdadelta is well aware of that, she basically pretty much understand that each time Beatrice uses a red truth she scores a point and loses one. Indeed this game will never end if it keeps going this way.


It's because red text gives Battler information, she didn't need to tell him some things when he asked her. However, if she doesn't give any because she's being too cautious, neither of them can win because Battler will have no ammo for his 'shotgun' and she refuses to unsheathe her sword.

Blue text is the means to keep the game rolling and enforce that she has to use her red.

At least that's what I got from it, someone feel free to tell me if I interpreted it wrong.

[Marion]

I'm pretty sure they said that there was more than one letter from someone signed Maria Ushiromiya. Of course I could have misread it XD;

[Jan-Poo]

That would make sense if
1) Battler had to get the truth to avoid losing
2) this wasn't an endless game

Bu the problem is that Battler doesn't need to know the truth to win, he just needs to formulate a rational theory that doesn't involve fantasy. He could win even with a lie if Beatrice isn't able to negate it somehow.

Now Beatrice is thinking about using red truths only at the end of the game, by doing this she slows down Battler's attacks, however Battler has already found out a way to counterattack by stating many different theories at once. By giving him the power to state theories in blu she didn't really give him anything that he couldn't do earlier. She had to counter Battler's theories even before that. If i were in battler's position i wouldn't accept that new rule. It's only trouble for him and he gets nothing.

[tcaz2]

That would make sense if
1) Battler had to get the truth to avoid losing
2) this wasn't an endless game

Bu the problem is that Battler doesn't need to know the truth to win, he just needs to formulate a rational theory that doesn't involve fantasy. He could win even with a lie if Beatrice isn't able to negate it somehow.

Now Beatrice is thinking about using red truths only at the end of the game, by doing this she slows down Battler's attacks, however Battler has already found out a way to counterattack by stating many different theories at once. By giving him the power to state theories in blu she didn't really give him anything that he couldn't do earlier. She had to counter Battler's theories even before that. If i were in battler's position i wouldn't accept that new rule. It's only trouble for him and he gets nothing.


If it's a lie, Beatrice can counter it with red simply by saying "You're wrong" or something. So I'd say yes, he kind of does need 'the truth' to win.

Not sure what you're getting at by putting forth the game is endless. Battler is going under the assumption that it will have an end, so from his perspective the rule would make sense.

[crazysjd89]

Oh.

That was all in "Episode 3", there were two bottles found, one describing the events as if they were just serial murders, and another describing them as a witch's doing.

As far as we know, the only letters are in:
Episode 1, shown in the Endroll, asking for whoever read it to find out the truth. This one wasn't nearly as extensive as the two described below, as it's a simple paragraph.
Two in "Episode 3", describing two different scenarios of how the murders were carried out. These are apprantly a few sheets of pages and describe the events in detail.

All three are signed "Ushiromiya Maria", and the last two have the same signature as the "Beatrice" who wrote in Maria's notebook.

[Jan-Poo]

If it's a lie, Beatrice can counter it with red simply by saying "You're wrong" or something. So I'd say yes, he kind of does need 'the truth' to win.

Not sure what you're getting at by putting forth the game is endless. Battler is going under the assumption that it will have an end, so from his perspective the rule would make sense.


That would be cheap! I don't think Beatrice can actually resort to that, if she could she would have done that already. I think the red truth must be a very precise assertion, something so vague like "you are wrong" is not acceptable imho.

On the endless part i actually just read in the first patch that Battler stated that he is going to win even if it will take one thousand years. Even if he believes that eventually it will end Battler is acting on the premise that it could go on endlessly if he doesn't win. With this kind of attitude imho is almost sure that he will win. However it looks like Ange is trying to speed up things, but to do that Battler needs to find the truth.

However finding the truth is almost impossible at this time, if Battler is only going to state probable theories (in order to find the truth quickly) his options are very limited. He should rather state any kind of theory no matter how preposterous it is, this way he's going to get a lot of red truths that will greatly enhance his chances of getting to a solution.

In other words as long as Battler is playing to find the truth Beatrice has the upper hand, but if battler just focuses on denying witches and take avail of any possible theory (even improbable theories) then it's Beatrice that is disadvantaged.

[tcaz2]

That would be cheap! I don't think Beatrice can actually resort to that, if she could she would have done that already. I think the red truth must be a very precise assertion, something so vague like "you are wrong" is not acceptable imho.

On the endless part i actually just read in the first patch that Battler stated that he is going to win even if it will take one thousand years. Even if he believes that eventually it will end Battler is acting on the premise that it could go on endlessly if he doesn't win. With this kind of attitude imho is almost sure that he will win. However it looks like Ange is trying to speed up things, but to do that Battler needs to find the truth.

However finding the truth is almost impossible at this time, if Battler is only going to state probable theories (in order to find the truth quickly) his options are very limited. He should rather state any kind of theory no matter how preposterous it is, this way he's going to get a lot of red truths that will greatly enhance his chances of getting to a solution.

In other words as long as Battler is playing to find the truth Beatrice has the upper hand, but if battler just focuses on denying witches and take avail of any possible theory (even improbable theories) then it's Beatrice that is disadvantaged.


Well I was just using that as an example. It could be more specific. If it's a lie, she can shoot it down is all I'm saying. He will need to eventually find the truth.

[Jan-Poo]

uhm let me make an example:

suppose you have a sack with a thousand balls inside it. 999 of them ar white and only 1 is black.

Battler needs to find the black ball but he cannot see it, he needs to rely on Beatrice that will tell him with a red truth if the ball that he just took from the sack is white or black. However Beatrice could refuse to state such a red truth.

If Battler now tries desperatly to find the black ball he will never find it. Simply because Beatrice will never tell him the color of the balls. He will try and try again without ever having the definitive proof that he reached his goal. trying to figure out which is the right ball is useless he cannot find it. He might even get the black ball in his hand, but if Beatrice doesn't say a thing he will end up searching again and again.

But if Battler plays as he doesn't mind to find the black ball. He will just get one and state: this is the black ball. And this is the achille's heel of Beatrice because she wants him to play. As long as he plays she doesn't need to do much, but if he just take a position and stand still Beatrice is forced to do something. She'll have to say: "that ball is white" in red truth. Then Battler only has to nonchalantly take another random ball and say "ok this is the black ball". Eventually he will get the right one.

[tcaz2]

uhm let me make an example:

suppose you have a sack with a thousand balls inside it. 999 of them ar white and only 1 is black.

Battler needs to find the black ball but he cannot see it, he needs to rely on Beatrice that will tell him with a red truth if the ball that he just took from the sack is white or black. However Beatrice could refuse to state such a red truth.

If Battler now tries desperatly to find the black ball he will never find it. Simply because Beatrice will never tell him the color of the balls. He will try and try again without ever having the definitive proof that he reached his goal. trying to figure out which is the right ball is useless he cannot find it. He might even get the black ball in his hand, but if Beatrice doesn't say a thing he will end up searching again and again.

But if Battler plays as he doesn't mind to find the black ball. He will just get one and state: this is the black ball. And this is the achille's heel of Beatrice because she wants him to play. As long as he plays she doesn't need to do much, but if he just take a position and stand still Beatrice is forced to do something. She'll have to say: "that ball is white" in red truth. Then Battler only has to nonchalantly take another random ball and say "ok this is the black ball". Eventually he will get the right one.

So we've been saying the same thing but differently. That's the entire point of the blue from what I said; to ensure that Beatrice 'surely will counter Battler's theories'. Obviously there is only one truth, either anti-mystery or anti-fantasy (as even a mix of both is fantasy); one of them is fighting a losing battle to begin with. Either way it is an unfair rule, but one that must exist to keep the game going. The rule is actually disadvantageous to Beatrice, when you think about it, because she COULD just keep going around in circles without that so that the game will never end.

Blue text is the personification of Battler saying 'This is the black ball', in other words.

Instead of wondering why Battler would accept the rule because it's trouble for him, I'd wonder why Beatrice did, because it's trouble for her.

[Jan-Poo]

So we've been saying the same thing but differently. That's the entire point of the blue from what I said; to ensure that Beatrice 'surely will counter Battler's theories'. Obviously there is only one truth, either anti-mystery or anti-fantasy (as even a mix of both is fantasy); one of them is fighting a losing battle to begin with. Either way it is an unfair rule, but one that must exist to keep the game going. The rule is actually disadvantageous to Beatrice, when you think about it, because she COULD just keep going around in circles without that so that the game will never end.

Blue text is the personification of Battler saying 'This is the black ball', in other words.

Instead of wondering why Battler would accept the rule because it's trouble for him, I'd wonder why Beatrice did, because it's trouble for her.


It's true that with the blue theory now Beatrice must give an answer to abide to a rule, she can no longer avoid that. But imho she would have done that anyway, because unlike Lambdadelta she wants to win. Well maybe she can accept an endless battle but she certainly wouldn't like a stalemate, why? because boredom is poison for her!

So you could say that even if i'm right nothing really changed, unfortunately not, because that blue thing came with a price. Now Battler has also accepted the rule that he must find a way to counter Beatrice's theories at the end of the game. Plus there's a psychological effect, if battler is determined to elaborate many theories Beatrice will enjoy the show and won't spill a single red truth untill the end.

[meh]

Started reading the translationed chapters. One thing that jumped out at me was the music, because I don't remember the music being anything special before. But they're really good for this episode.

[Sterling01]

It's not that Battler is Kinzo's son or grandson, but Battler is actually Kinzo.

Battler beats Beatrice after the 8th game, but after playing with her for so long, he became fond of her, so when she disappeared, he became depressed. He finally went to Lambdadelta, pleading for her to send him in a Kakera where he could be with Beatrice.

So Battler was sent back and born as Ushiromiya Kinzo. This is why Kinzo was able to invest and get money in just the right ways. Since he was Battler before, he knew what would happen. This is also how Beatrice granted Kinzo all this gold.

Simultaneously with this, Ange could no longer exist with Battler. Even though she tried to be a good sister, she was lonely now. Lambdadelta made a deal with her, sending her back in time, to become Beatrice. This also means that the person who taught Beatrice magic is the person who taught Ange magic, which means Maria is Virgillia. This explains why Virgillia looks so much like Rosa.

This also explains Battler's sin. Because he is Kinzo, so he is responsible for everyone being killed.

Shannon and Kanon, who decided to continue to serve Battler were also sent back. Kanon would become Genji and Shannon would become Kumasawa. It's interesting to point out, Kanon and Genji follow the "furniture" mentality while Shannon and Kumasawa follow the "human servants" mentality.
They do mention that Battler does resemble Kinzo when he was younger and that they both have the personalities of phoenixes. :heh:

[Counter Arts]

Kinzo's already dead at the beginning?

EDIT: I can see 2 minutes into the future.

[Jan-Poo]

reply for counter arts:


The only thing that can be said is that the adult ushiromiyas strongly believe that Kinzo is already dead and Battler is using that theory to postulate the existence of a "x" person on Rokkenjima. However Beatrice seems confident that she'll be able to dismantle this theory and a scene where Natsuhi and Krauss meet a mage version of Kinzo (Goldsmith) is shown.


to know further than the first english patch you need to ask on the ep4 thread.

[Counter Arts]

That really was a guess. I felt good until the story said the theory blatantly to me.

[Jan-Poo]

It's not that Battler is Kinzo's son or grandson, but Battler is actually Kinzo.

Battler beats Beatrice after the 8th game, but after playing with her for so long, he became fond of her, so when she disappeared, he became depressed. He finally went to Lambdadelta, pleading for her to send him in a Kakera where he could be with Beatrice.

So Battler was sent back and born as Ushiromiya Kinzo. This is why Kinzo was able to invest and get money in just the right ways. Since he was Battler before, he knew what would happen. This is also how Beatrice granted Kinzo all this gold.

Simultaneously with this, Ange could no longer exist with Battler. Even though she tried to be a good sister, she was lonely now. Lambdadelta made a deal with her, sending her back in time, to become Beatrice. This also means that the person who taught Beatrice magic is the person who taught Ange magic, which means Maria is Virgillia. This explains why Virgillia looks so much like Rosa.

This also explains Battler's sin. Because he is Kinzo, so he is responsible for everyone being killed.

Shannon and Kanon, who decided to continue to serve Battler were also sent back. Kanon would become Genji and Shannon would become Kumasawa. It's interesting to point out, Kanon and Genji follow the "furniture" mentality while Shannon and Kumasawa follow the "human servants" mentality.

Have you played "Shadow of Memories" perhaps? ^^;
Your theory reminds me a lot of what hapens in that game

[Marion]

So if I'm right the patch ends at the start of the boat scene in 1998, right?

[crazysjd89]

So if I'm right the patch ends at the start of the boat scene in 1998, right?

That is correct, that is the beginning of Chapter 10.

[Christen]

Ok, I don't want answers from those who already know but..
We have 2 message bottles. Which are both different in content, and indicate that everyone from the Ushiromiya family died.

This way, I'm looking now at Umineko at this angle

1. Episodes 1 and 2 are the what if's of the Rokkenjima incident, the stories inside those 2 message bottles. They are shown to us as it is.

2. Episode 3 is what happened, or rather as Ange put it, where the plans of the culprit didn't go according to plan. This is the world that results to Ushiromiya Ange's unhappiness.

Well, I'll need to distract myself again with other things or else I'm going to die of waiting.

[Jan-Poo]

Ok, I don't want answers from those who already know but..
We have 2 message bottles. Which are both different in content, and indicate that everyone from the Ushiromiya family died.

This way, I'm looking now at Umineko at this angle

1. Episodes 1 and 2 are the what if's of the Rokkenjima incident, the stories inside those 2 message bottles. They are shown to us as it is.

2. Episode 3 is what happened, or rather as Ange put it, where the plans of the culprit didn't go according to plan. This is the world that results to Ushiromiya Ange's unhappiness.

Well, I'll need to distract myself again with other things or else I'm going to die of waiting.


I'm not sure the messages in the bottles describe the events of episode1 and episode2, the only thing i'm sure of is that they do not describe the events of episode3.

What bothers me is that absolutely nothing was said about the "incident" that happened in Rokkenjima. In other words... what exactly the police found in the island on 6th october? because if they found the corpses as they left them in episode3 then there's no way they would call it an incident.

[crazysjd89]

I've been thinking about this for awhile, but I wonder if it was Kinzo who put the portrait up? According to Genji, the portrait went up between the last family conference and the one before that. And Kinzo started to "stay holed up in his room" at the last family conference. If we assume that he was dead at this point, it means he died around the same time period as the portrait being put up.

I wonder if there was some reason for having that portrait put up when Kinzo died, assuming he isn't the one who did it.

Also, I have never even heard of Shadow of Memories before.

[ClockWorkAngel]

I also have a feeling that

Kinzo's will probably included putting up the portrait, and the actions Goldsmith are taking. For some reason or another. Now the big question is that does anyone know?

[Hareoic]

I'm considering the possibility that absolutely none of what is happening is real.

Not yet, anyway.

Rather, it's a premonition of what could happen unless Battler figures out the real culprits instead of accepting everybody else's explanation of "a witch did it".Nothing in red is true. We are told that it is an irrefutable truth and that's that, and for that reason, no solid supporting evidence is provided. That makes me a little suspicious.

[Marion]

I also have a feeling that

Kinzo's will probably included putting up the portrait, and the actions Goldsmith are taking. For some reason or another. Now the big question is that does anyone know?

According to the game Goldsmith is the title Kinzo uses as his 'magician' alias. Goldsmith and Kinzo ARE THE EXACT SAME PERSON. Like 'Beatrice' is a title 'Goldsmith' is one as well, specifically for Kinzo alone. As we considered Eva and Eva-Beatrice to be the same person in Episode 3 the case is the same - Goldsmith and Kinzo are the one in the same.

However, since we believe that Kinzo is dead right from the start that means that 'Goldsmith' is most likely Culprit X, in disguise as the 'Kinzo' we viewed in past episodes, such as the meetings we saw Natsuhi and him in Episode 1, or Shannon and Genji writing his will in Episode 2.

[Kets]

Can someone explain to me what a Probatio Diabolica is?

[Marion]

Can someone explain to me what a Probatio Diabolica is?
Probatio Diabolica is Latin for Devil's Proof.

In a nutshell it's 'Just because you can't prove something exists, doesn't mean it doesn't'

An example is with the imaginary device that can shoot stakes in Episode 1. Battler can't prove it happened, but as long as there is no definite proof against it happening then that doesn't mean it can't exist. If no definite proof exists then he can claim there is such a weapon, but of course that isn't necessarily true. This is Devil's Proof - It's true because it can't be proved untrue.

A more simpler example is what Eva-Beatrice did with Kyrie. She claimed she manipulated Kyrie's thought process to leave the mansion. Battler can't prove Kyrie's mind wasn't manipulated in anyway definitely, but that doesn't mean that it didn't happen. That makes it Devil's Proof.

It's basically a paradox of thoughts.

[Christen]

I believe what Ange thinks about them. They could be prepared stories before the family conference. The purpose would be to confuse what ever happened on that island. The mere existence of those bottles can help in covering up the truth on what happened during those 2 days.

[rogerpepitone]

Was the wording of the message in episode 1 the same as the wording in Onikakushi-hen?

[Jan-Poo]

I believe what Ange thinks about them. They could be prepared stories before the family conference. The purpose would be to confuse what ever happened on that island. The mere existence of those bottles can help in covering up the truth on what happened during those 2 days.


In Higurashi the purpose of miyo's notes was to create a legend and therefore grant her the wish to become Oyashiro. She wrote different stories in different notes because she knew that would create even more speculations.
Now in umineko it looks like the same thing happens. If we accept that the 1998 of Ange is realistic and a possible future, then we must accept the fact that there is indeed a person who is taking the role of Beatrice.
Maria's diary is the proof. The handwriting in the cover is not Maria's and it is signed as "Beatrice". This also mean that the Beatrice Maria claims to be her master actually existed. Addtionally, the same person wrote the various messages in the bottle, and it is said that it is improbable that she did it all in one day in the middle of a serial murderer. This Beatrice is probably behind this mistery. Also the fact that Lambdadelta says she is giving her powers, enforces the idea that a real Beatrice exists.
The only question is: who is Beatrice? Is it a "x" person? Is it one of the "18"? Is it a single person or a group of persons?

[Jan-Poo]

I'm considering the possibility that absolutely none of what is happening is real.

Not yet, anyway.

Rather, it's a premonition of what could happen unless Battler figures out the real culprits instead of accepting everybody else's explanation of "a witch did it".Nothing in red is true. We are told that it is an irrefutable truth and that's that, and for that reason, no solid supporting evidence is provided. That makes me a little suspicious.


The long discussion between Maria and Ange about "truth" is really a mindfuck that makes me wonder what is exactly this "truth" Beatrice is talking about. Battler probably doesn't think too much about that because according to his perspective there is no doubt about what "truth" really is, the problem is he's dealing with a witch, and by "witch" i mean a person like Maria, a person whose belief in magic is so strong that she can make magic truly exist in her world and in whoever believes in her magic. The concept of truth for these persons is probably different than the common one.
There is also the problem that by accepting the red truths it is also accepted the fact that the story on Rokkenjima is repeating itself over and over. And then... which is the true Rokkenjima? If all of them are true then the schroedinger's cat theory is more than a simple theoretical thought. However in that case the "truth" value greatly decreases.

[Keriaku]

After rereading the endroll of Episode 1 where they mention the bottle, it turns out we are never actually given the whole contents of the notes. We only get the last few sentences where Maria asks to know the truth. Most of the endroll is explaining the situation on the island after the murder, the conditions the bodies were found in, how they identified Maria through dental records etc.

And so, let us tie this tale to the last sentence of the notebook fragment that Ushiromiya Maria left.

By the time you have read this, I will probably be dead.
The only difference will be whether there is a body or not.
You who have read this.
Please find out the truth.
That's my only wish.

Ushiromiya Maria

So it's very likely that the note from the first Episode is very similar, if not identical to the ones mentioned in Episode 4.

It's interesting if these messages are suppose to be similar to the notebooks left by Takano, because that would mean these are a mix of Keiichi being confused and looking for answers and Takano setting out the shroud to real truth all in one from Higurashi.

They also mention in the Episode 1 endroll that the message in the bottle wasn't the truth and the writer probably didn't even know the truth.

And even though the notebook fragment in the wine bottle will tell of this incident filled with mystery, it won't be telling it with the truth.
That's right, ...perhaps not even the writer of the notebook knew the truth.
......It's possible that she wanted to know the truth.


Could this also possibly hint that the writer of this bottle wasn't actually on the island and just had some kind of idea what was going to take place, but not the details?

[rogerpepitone]

The note seems out of character for Maria. For one, it seems more mature than we saw her, and more witch-cynical. If any of the other grandchildren had signed it, I'd have seen no such problem. If somebody were faking the final message in ep. 1, why sign Maria's name? Also, why use the method of a message in a bottle? There's a substantial chance it will never be found. If the killer wrote it, s/he could have put it in a not-well-concealed area that the investigators would find. OTOH, if Maria had written it, I could see her using a bottle to keep the killer from destroying it.

(Another possibility: The message was written years after the fact by somebody, possibly the bottle finder, with limited knowledge of the characters.)

No comment on any messages in episode 4, which I haven't read.

[Kets]

Probatio Diabolica is Latin for Devil's Proof.

In a nutshell it's 'Just because you can't prove something exists, doesn't mean it doesn't'

An example is with the imaginary device that can shoot stakes in Episode 1. Battler can't prove it happened, but as long as there is no definite proof against it happening then that doesn't mean it can't exist. If no definite proof exists then he can claim there is such a weapon, but of course that isn't necessarily true. This is Devil's Proof - It's true because it can't be proved untrue.

A more simpler example is what Eva-Beatrice did with Kyrie. She claimed she manipulated Kyrie's thought process to leave the mansion. Battler can't prove Kyrie's mind wasn't manipulated in anyway definitely, but that doesn't mean that it didn't happen. That makes it Devil's Proof.

It's basically a paradox of thoughts.

Thanks. So is Probatio Diabolica a kind of fallacy?

[Proto]

No, because it is'nt a logical argument that reaches a contradiction. It's just a circumstance you just can't reach any type of definite conclusion from the premises of your argument. When it happens in law situations, normally what you do is reversing the burden of proof (eg in an ideal situation EVA BEATRICE would be the one who would have to prove that she indeed tampered with Kyrie's train of thought), or you would have to give additional weapons to the one that is stuck in the probation diabolica situation (eg Battler would be given the ability to get inside Kyrie mind and verify for himself whether it was tampered).

[Keriaku]

The note seems out of character for Maria. For one, it seems more mature than we saw her, and more witch-cynical. If any of the other grandchildren had signed it, I'd have seen no such problem. If somebody were faking the final message in ep. 1, why sign Maria's name? Also, why use the method of a message in a bottle? There's a substantial chance it will never be found. If the killer wrote it, s/he could have put it in a not-well-concealed area that the investigators would find. OTOH, if Maria had written it, I could see her using a bottle to keep the killer from destroying it.

(Another possibility: The message was written years after the fact by somebody, possibly the bottle finder, with limited knowledge of the characters.)

No comment on any messages in episode 4, which I haven't read.

It's funny because pretty much all of what you mentioned was said when talking about this subject in Ep. 4.

[Jan-Poo]

Thanks. So is Probatio Diabolica a kind of fallacy?

I guess it depends on your point of view. If you ask to a lawyer he might say it's a logical argument, if you ask to a scientist he will tell you that it has no meaning whatsoever.

[Matrim]

I really didn't like this part of ep.4 it was by far my least favourite part of Umineko. Way, way too much Maria and Ange. Too few clues.

OK, maybe I missed some but I just skimmed or skipped just about all convos with the Stakes because they quite frankly bored me to tears. Maybe I am too insensitive but I am really not interested in reading details about how Ange is bullied at school and by her guardians, Maria is bullied at school and by her mother. And I really didn't like how Ange who has just arrived gave Battler valuable strategy hints. Why is Ange running from her family anyway? If she is 18 can't she just use the money to hire an army of bodyguards? Maybe I shouldn't have skipped that much text. ;)

The only really tasty bits of info were the message bottles, the supposed disappearance of everyone but Eva in ep.3 and the siblings being sure Kinzo is dead. Are we supposed to assume that ep.1 and 2 never actually happened due to the messages being prepared beforehand? Wouldn't that make it impossible for us the solve the mystery as it turns ep.1 and 2 to "who could have done it" to "what was the author (who is presumably the culprit) trying to achieve by writing it this way" which is way more vague?

[Keriaku]

I really didn't like this part of ep.4 it was by far my least favourite part of Umineko. Way, way too much Maria and Ange. Too few clues.

OK, maybe I missed some but I just skimmed or skipped just about all convos with the Stakes because they quite frankly bored me to tears. Maybe I am too insensitive but I am really not interested in reading details about how Ange is bullied at school and by her guardians, Maria is bullied at school and by her mother. And I really didn't like how Ange who has just arrived gave Battler valuable strategy hints. Why is Ange running from her family anyway? If she is 18 can't she just use the money to hire an army of bodyguards? Maybe I shouldn't have skipped that much text. ;)

The only really tasty bits of info were the message bottles, the supposed disappearance of everyone but Eva in ep.3 and the siblings being sure Kinzo is dead. Are we supposed to assume that ep.1 and 2 never actually happened due to the messages being prepared beforehand? Wouldn't that make it impossible for us the solve the mystery as it turns ep.1 and 2 to "who could have done it" to "what was the author (who is presumably the culprit) trying to achieve by writing it this way" which is way more vague?

If you couldn't enjoy half (or most?) of what was translated in this patch, I really think you're missing out on a lot of what this series has to offer.

We already know a very important theme is love.

[Tjfarmer]

@Matrim

I Actually thought this part was very interesting. Actually one of my more favorite parts of Umineko. My only complaint was that there was not enough of the story taking place in 1986. The Maria and Sakuatou parts (near the end of the translation) were very interesting. It actually made me more think that Maria has some form of disorder. I know kids like to voice-over their toys, but to the extent that when Maria was still voicing Sakutarou as Rosa was destroying him is kinda weird.

Also, Ange doesn't have the money yet (or so I understand from the reading) so she doesn't have the money to hire body guards.

Rosa is also a very horrible mother in this patch. I had some respect for her after ep2, but of course in EP 4 the scenes where Rosa was being a horrible mother took place before they went on the island, so I believe she has changed a little since that time. But leaving her daughter alone for 3 days to go on a vacation? That is just cruel.

[tcaz2]

One has to wonder if this stuff always happened before they went to Rokkenjima. It could very much explain her 'Kihihi' personality and why she acts the way she does. This would include why she didn't seem to care when Rosa died in episode 1 (assuming she did); she already said she wants to kill her.

Episode 2 would be the scenario where they managed to reconcile and Rosa understood what she did wrong.

Episode 3 would be perhaps Maria luring her out so Rosa could get killed by the culprit of that episode?

I dunno, just something I thought of.

[Matrim]

If you couldn't enjoy half (or most?) of what was translated in this patch, I really think you're missing out on a lot of what this series has to offer.

We already know a very important theme is love.

Er, so what? I really like many of the other characters. Maria and Ange just rub me the wrong way. I am not saying I didn't like it because it was more character driven rather than mystery.
But I really did feel sorry for Maria in the end. No nine year old deserves to have her mother abandon her in order to go on vacation with her boyfriend. Couldn't Rosa have at least left enough food to Maria so she wouldn't have to go buy stuff?
I think Maria has some disorder too. She tries to believe in Rosa despite everything, sometiems she is extremely supportive and obedient, sometimes she behaves as if she wants to embarrass her on purpose. And there is the whole mystical knowledge thing.

[Tjfarmer]

Theres one thing I'm REALLY confused about in the first patch though

Okay, so theres a few different times going on so far. Pre-Rokkenjima, 1986, Lucrecia Academy Time, and 1996. How can Pre-Rokkenjima Maria recognize what goes on during Lucrecia Academy Time? Near the end, when Ange rejects the Stakes, Maria, and Sakutarou, it goes back to Pre-Rokkenjima time, and Maria talks to Sakutarou about what Ange did. How is that possible? I might have missed something, but I'm confused about that part.

[tcaz2]

Theres one thing I'm REALLY confused about in the first patch though

Okay, so theres a few different times going on so far. Pre-Rokkenjima, 1986, Lucrecia Academy Time, and 1996. How can Pre-Rokkenjima Maria recognize what goes on during Lucrecia Academy Time? Near the end, when Ange rejects the Stakes, Maria, and Sakutarou, it goes back to Pre-Rokkenjima time, and Maria talks to Sakutarou about what Ange did. How is that possible? I might have missed something, but I'm confused about that part.

She could have been talking about something the 6 year old Ange did.

[momobunny]

I also believe that Maria has some disorder. During EP1~3 I honestly found her very annoying and hard to relate to or understand. So I wasn't a huge fan of Maria.

Though her role in EP4 changed my opinion of her. How she behaves is different, she shows a more vulnerable and mature side of herself... not to say that she's a completely different character, but it feels as if I can understand her some more. I honestly feel sorry for her after what happened, Rosa was just too cruel... I understand if she was upset with her (well... not really because she was completely wrong anyway) but to be so cruel as to destroy Maria's "friends" like that... even if they were just toys to Rosa, they were obviously much much more to Maria. I just don't think I can understand how Rosa could be so mean even with her unlucky background. Needless to say this EP so far made me hate Rosa and I now adore Maria as well as Sakutarou.

I liked Ange when she first came in, and I liked her near the end of the first patch too. The only part I didn't really like her in was when she denied magic, told the Stakes to die, and called Sakutarou a stuffed animal in front of Maria. I'm not sure if she was imagining the whole scene or if it really happened or what... but that still wasn't very nice. *adores Sakutarou*

Anyway my favorite parts with her were probably when she escaped from Kasumi's guards with Amakusa and the part when she had the discussion with that professor. Though some parts really did confuse me.

Good grief that's A LOT of stuff for just a portion of the game. I was waiting for more things to happen in 1986 but eventually the patch ended. So I was disappointed with the lack of conference events in the first part of the game, I also hated how it ended seeing as it kind of ended after Sakutarou was killed... such a cruel cliffhanger. ;_;

I'm really glad that you guys translated this though, I can't wait for the next part! :3

[meh]

If you couldn't enjoy half (or most?) of what was translated in this patch, I really think you're missing out on a lot of what this series has to offer.

We already know a very important theme is love.

I think s/he meant the pacing was bad, which I kind of agree.

The Ange/Maria backstory seemed have made up most of the first 9 chapters. So little regarding 1986 and 1998 version of Ange. Everything in moderation.

[Tjfarmer]

She could have been talking about something the 6 year old Ange did.

Hmm, that's a good point. I never looked at it like that. Okay then, here is something else that I'm also confused about that is related to previous question.

Sakutarou was there for Lucrecia Academy time, but he supposedly died during pre-Rokkenjima time. Unless that it something saved for later and to be explained at a later time. Of course, if what Ange was saying was true that the Stakes, Maria, and Sakutarou ARE figments of her imagination brought on by her loneliness, then it would make sense.....

Edit: Also, when does Lucrecia Academy Time take place? I think the fact that Ange looked the same (besides the outfit) as she does in 1996 kinda threw me off. I assume its just a little after or during 1986, but I'm not exactly sure.

[Proto]

Though her role in EP4 changed my opinion of her. How she behaves is different, she shows a more vulnerable and mature side of herself... not to say that she's a completely different character, but it feels as if I can understand her some more. I honestly feel sorry for her after what happened, Rosa was just too cruel... I understand if she was upset with her (well... not really because she was completely wrong anyway) but to be so cruel as to destroy Maria's "friends" like that... even if they were just toys to Rosa, they were obviously much much more to Maria. I just don't think I can understand how Rosa could be so mean even with her unlucky background. Needless to say this EP so far made me hate Rosa and I now adore Maria as well as Sakutarou.



It can be a bipolar disorder, or some other psychology behavioral disorder. I can sort of relate since I have a relative that suffers from this and trust me, it is not nice for either part. (parents and son alike) Sucks to be Japanese with how they usually just turn a blind eye to any kind of psychological anomaly, even to this date.

I liked Ange when she first came in, and I liked her near the end of the first patch too. The only part I didn't really like her in was when she denied magic, told the Stakes to die, and called Sakutarou a stuffed animal in front of Maria. I'm not sure if she was imagining the whole scene or if it really happened or what... but that still wasn't very nice. *adores Sakutarou*

Certainly that wasn't the best course of action to take, but on another hand it was a very realistic portrayal of how humans behave under situations of extreme pressure, so you have to give kudos to R07 on that:p

[tcaz2]

Hmm, that's a good point. I never looked at it like that. Okay then, here is something else that I'm also confused about that is related to previous question.

Sakutarou was there for Lucrecia Academy time, but he supposedly died during pre-Rokkenjima time. Unless that it something saved for later and to be explained at a later time. Of course, if what Ange was saying was true that the Stakes, Maria, and Sakutarou ARE figments of her imagination brought on by her loneliness, then it would make sense.....

Edit: Also, when does Lucrecia Academy Time take place? I think the fact that Ange looked the same (besides the outfit) as she does in 1996 kinda threw me off. I assume its just a little after or during 1986, but I'm not exactly sure.


Magic doesn't exist ;). The whole Sakutaro and Witch Maria thing was probably just written in the diary that way.

EDIT: And it's 1998, not 1996. The Academy part takes place before Eva dies, I'd wager.

[Tjfarmer]

I also believe in the magic doesn't exist theory. With that theory, I guess you could say that Sakutarou, Maria, and the Stakes are friends that Ange made up so she wouldn't be so lonely. Like how Maria created Sakutarou because of her loneliness. I think that how Maria is more mature around Ange is because Ange created this Maria, as a friend that would guide her, be more mature. Kinda of like how Sakutarou is to Maria, a friend to help her.

During the time when Ange rejected all her friends, is probably because she truly realized that they can't help her. And then in 1996, she needed them back because once again she was lonely. She needed her friends back to help make her decisions. in the Meta-world when Ange leaves the game-room, Maria appears to her, probably because Ange needed some help, so she consulted Maria, her 'guiding wisdom'.

[Marion]

Er, so what? I really like many of the other characters. Maria and Ange just rub me the wrong way. I am not saying I didn't like it because it was more character driven rather than mystery.
But I really did feel sorry for Maria in the end. No nine year old deserves to have her mother abandon her in order to go on vacation with her boyfriend. Couldn't Rosa have at least left enough food to Maria so she wouldn't have to go buy stuff?
I think Maria has some disorder too. She tries to believe in Rosa despite everything, sometiems she is extremely supportive and obedient, sometimes she behaves as if she wants to embarrass her on purpose. And there is the whole mystical knowledge thing.
It's not a disorder - it's loneliness. When someone is lonely and have no friends, such as Maria, it's not too uncommon for children her age to have imaginary friends. As far as Rosa goes it's called faith - Maria WANTS to believe her mother cares about her, which is why she doesn't talk to child care services or the police about what Rosa does. Abused children realize they're abused but believe that if they tell the police then they'll be taken to a worse place.

Rosa DOES love Maria to an extent as well, so we can't say she's completely abusive - majorly she's emotionally abusive but that's it. She also deals with a ton of stress as we learned in previous games: Her fashion company is considered a joke, her siblings don't respect her work, she's a single mother raising a child in a family that has married families, a modern monarchy - which she is at the essential bottom of - and there is also the mental stress of Maria adoring the witch Beatrice, which we learned in EP 3 died because of Rosa in a sense. So when Maria goes off about magic and witches, we can say Rosa is probably reminded of Beatrice from 1967, and easily gets mad about it. It's not an excuse to what Rosa did to Maria, but then again she DID get caught by child services as an 'unfit mother' because of Maria caring around Sakutaro.

:P Note: I am not defending Rosa. Mkay~

[lovelysan]

.....Maria's NINE folks. Nine and a victim of neglect and mental abuse. OF COURSE SHE'S WEIRD. I mean, given the situation, I just can't throw around the term "mental disorder" in relation to Maria :/ .


Anyhoo, in episode 1, Maria annoyed the heck out of me and I just wrote her off as a spoiled brat.
In episodes 2 and 3, I can't really remember why, but the kid grew on me.

In episode 4... MY GOD D:, I weep for the girl! Though now she's really sorta moved herself into the "suspect" pool ^^;. Heh.


Ange... eeeeeh, I go back and forth with how I feel about her. I realise her life sucked and all, but gloomy characters just aren't ussually my scene... Though I do feel she's growing on me. Also, I like her interactions with Minamimoto* though (*Amakutsu? I keep on forgetting his real name XD .. )






Finally, the "both" option at the end of this patch is both hilarious AND terrifying. You're an evil bunch Witch Hunt ;) .

[lovelysan]

Oops, forgot about Rosa


I liked Rosa in episodes 1-3 a good deal. I even understood a lot of the things she did. Buuuuuuut... damn, Epi4 is trying it's best to make me hate her ^^;. I mean, Jesus Christ 0_0; .





As a side note, I do believe that child welfare laws and the like were pretty different back in the 80's. There was a lot of "don't ask, don't tell, not my problem" sort of attitude about such cases back in the day.
Not to mention that different countries tend to treat different situations differently. Japan has always been a sort of "private" don't stand out sort of society, so I imagine things were even more ignored over there back then.

Hmmm, i'm not exactly sure about all of this though, so I feel a trip to wikipedia coming on....

EDIT-
"Endless" and "repeating" is one of the themes in Umineko and I'm noticing the theme is very evident with "child abuse cycle" in general. The parents were abused, so they abuse their children, The children...?


I think the ultimate goal of the game story is STOPPING said cycles. ....Er, with that "stopping" not involving DEATH of course >_> . ah, but maybe stopping the cycle is a motive of the killer(s)?

[crazysjd89]

I also hated how it ended seeing as it kind of ended after Sakutarou was killed... such a cruel cliffhanger. ;_;

Trust me when I say, there are a lot of more cruel cliffhanger it could have ended on, heh.

Sakutarou was there for Lucrecia Academy time, but he supposedly died during pre-Rokkenjima time. Unless that it something saved for later and to be explained at a later time. Of course, if what Ange was saying was true that the Stakes, Maria, and Sakutarou ARE figments of her imagination brought on by her loneliness, then it would make sense....

Assumedly, Ange never got to the part of the diary that mentioned Sakutarou's death, or it was never written about, so to use the logic of Episode 4, her "future knowledge" that Sakutarou is still alive overwrote the "past knoweledge" that he is dead.

[Jan-Poo]

Why is Ange running from her family anyway? If she is 18 can't she just use the money to hire an army of bodyguards? Maybe I shouldn't have skipped that much text. ;)


The answer is simple: Ange is japanese. In Japan people reach the age of majority when they are 20. That's why Okonogi and not Ange is the new head of Eva's company, and that's why the Sumadera family wants to take custody of her. Okonogi would probably be glad to hire a handful of bodyguard for Ange, but he cannot go against the law and the police. However he can still hire a single bodyguard to help her escape, and that's what he did. He has his own reason to do so, should Ange fall in Kasumi's hands, Kasumi would take control of the vast Ushiromiya's wealth, and that wouldn't be good for Okonogi himself who is not in good term with the Sumadera.


One has to wonder if this stuff always happened before they went to Rokkenjima. It could very much explain her 'Kihihi' personality and why she acts the way she does. This would include why she didn't seem to care when Rosa died in episode 1 (assuming she did); she already said she wants to kill her.


Mmm no i don't think so. As hard as it can be to believe it Maria really loves her mother. She loves her so much that in order to not feel hatred toward her she started to believe that sometimes an evil witch takes control of her. That way she can still love her mother while unloading all of her hate on the evil witch.
Maria is clearly delusional on a very severe degree, it is no wonder that all that happened to her had a serious impact on her development and that is why she has such a weird behavior. Maria basically learned a way to cope with anything bad by using her belief in magic. Should she not believe in magic then she would be devastated knowing that her mother is dead, but as long as she believes in witches and magic then nothing is wrong. This is why Maria reacts so bad when someone questions the existence of Beatrice. If someone denies magic in front of her, the illusionary shell she lives in might break and reality would fall all on her all at once crushing her.



Assumedly, Ange never got to the part of the diary that mentioned Sakutarou's death, or it was never written about, so to use the logic of Episode 4, her "future knowledge" that Sakutarou is still alive overwrote the "past knoweledge" that he is dead.


I also believes this, this is the most rational explanation. After all Sakutaro never existed in the first place. Ange is showing sign of the same delusion that affected Maria, the only difference is that Ange eventually grew up and realized that it was all fake. Also Ange had a normal and happy life until the tragedy of Rokkenjima, there was no permanent damage in her early development.

[k//eternal]

Why would a scientist say that?

All those physicists looking for various rare particles are pretty much depending on such logic to get funding, haha.

[jonnysalaris]

ei, does kinzo have twin?

[Jan-Poo]

Why would a scientist say that?

All those physicists looking for various rare particles are pretty much depending on such logic to get funding, haha.

Phsysicists who deal with quantum particles are a separate case ^^; they can easily challenge any foundation of logic. The schroedinger's cat theory comes from one of them after all...

and Jonnysalaris, i never heard anything about Kinzo having a twin or a brother.

[Proto]

Well, not even a lawyer would say that its a logical argument since it's not an argument per se, but a situation an argument can fall into when nothing can be strictly drawn from the premises.

[Louki]

First: Good job, the translation is great. (and pretty fast considering how much text those first 10 chapters had). Some random thoughts about Ep4 and the development in general:



Guess it was a good start for an episode, though it was pretty much only a flash-forwarding and flash-backing for the most part. Felt a little bit like Lost. :P
Nevertheless, interesting read. I really liked the part where Maria "had so much fun with everyone" while she demolished her room in reality. The music was absolutely perfect and the world felt "happy". I really wondered how I could have missed this obvious sadness when Ange pointed it out. Reminded me of Ep3's ending. ;)

Regarding the "Kinzo is dead" theory: I thought about that in EP3 as well since it would fit perfectly, as he had no appearances except a few which were related to magic in some way. Even his corpse can never be fully identified or the exact date of death is unknown. Kinda wonder how Beatrice will act to refute his argument. Oh and wow, blue lines as well. Will be hard to keep track of, I wish there would be some space in the Tips section where the red and blue lines would be collected...

Those flashback/forward parts were pretty intense though. I begin to suspect that all members of the Urishomiya family suffer from some kind of latent mental disorder which develops under stress or other environmental factors. There are so many hints in those few chapters in this episode I don't even want to count them. To name a few:

1. Maria: Obvious. She is the definition of "delusional disorder". We also know that she devastates her room etc. to compensate for her mother dumping her while sugarcoating her actions in the diary.

2. Ange: delusional disorder as Maria. Add to that her "Jumping from a building to escape" and other suicidal attitude and she seems pretty crazy. Her case seems pretty light though and it seems that she is able to fight it (as seen at the end).

3. Ange when reading Maria's diary: "It was written in a way as if she would write to another person." (paraphrased)

4. Rosa: her behavior is not just "stressed". Her mood swings are extreme, ranging from a very violent state to a depressive and caring state otherwise. Might be some kind of bipolar disorder?

5. Eva in Ep3: Her witch persona is noticeably different from her normal one. When she is seen shooting Battler her eyes are also different from how they are normally portrayed. I guess this should be an indicator of a different mind inside her which took control.

6.All members of the family seem to have had a horrible event happen in their past or a bad childhood in general.

Especially points 3 and 5 are interesting. We begin to assume pretty early that Maria will be the witch of the day as her past is highlighted, then we read what Ange has to say concerning Maria's diary. Soon after her witch persona is introduced by Beatrice. Coincidence?
I assume she will completely flip when her suppressed emotions emerge in the course of Ep4. Kinda like Eva-Beatrice did in Ep3.


I wonder if Umineko will work out as Higurashi did. Another random virus/disease/mental disorder/whatever would be kinda lame. I sure hope there is more behind it.

Corollary:

In every world, one person develops a witch persona when confronted with one element of their past (or greed etc. in general) due to a latent mental disorder present in any family member?





I still think she is a little girl burning anthills with a magnifying glass and not a real villain. Her reaction when she heard that Battler was depressed and "hugging his knees in a corner" was obviously worried and she had no reason to continue her play from EP3 at that point (especially since it was only Ronove and her in this room). She seemed worried that she hurt her playmate a bit too much and is unsure if they are able to continue their "game. And she did show that attitude in all episodes while Ep3 sew the seed of mistrust. I think Ep3 was a giant red herring in that regard.

Last but not least Lambdadelta seems more like the real villain that is pressuring Beatrice with "something" (Guess that was in the Ep2 tearoom? I don't remember exactly). The scene in Ep4 with Ange and Lambdadelta also shows that she has ulterior motives of which Beatrice doesn't know and that are negative for Beatrice as well.





I wondered about this before, but what do we (the readers) see and Battler doesn't? E.g. did he see Krauss and Natsuhi talking with Kinzo (I believe he didn't)? We do know from the family discussions that meta-Battler can be present in a scene where the physical Battler isn't and we also know that there are scenes that he cannot see (some murders e.g.). How do we know what he is able to see?

[Jan-Poo]

I fear we cannot truly understand what Metabattler sees and what he doesn't. We certainly know that not everything that we are shown happening on Rokkenjima is also seen by Metabattler, but that's all. We are not even totally sure that Metabattler can see anything that Realbattler sees. Episode3 ending is a good example. Realbattler came to the conclusion that Eva was the culprit however neither Metabattler nor we are shown what brought him to that.

About Lambdadelta in episode4 we finally understand what is her real objective. In episode2's hidden tea party we see her helping Battler (or the reader?) while on episode3's hidden tea party she is telling Beatrice that she need to play more seriously. This is probably because after episode2 Lambdadelta thought that Beatrice was advantages so she wanted to help Battler a little. However after episode3 Lambdadelta somehow came to the conclusion that Beatrice was losing ground. She wants the game co continue endlessly and she will always help the losing side. I wonder how Ange Beatrice will react now, but i hope she'll realize that Lambdadelta is at the source of her tragedy and that instead of looking for a personal objective she should rather focus on freeing her family and punish the villain.

6.All members of the family seem to have had a horrible event happen in their past or a bad childhood in general.

Well... unless i miss something, there are a few that do not seem to have a dark past. Jessica and George for example. Of course it is very possible that we'll learn more about them in the future.

[jonnysalaris]

ei, what if he does have twin, which explains why people acknowledge that kinzo is alive even though he's actually dead...

i didnt really play the game.. hehe.. just reading the forums for spoilers...

[rogerpepitone]

Episodes 3 and 4 strongly suggest that the epitaph describes how to find Kuwadorian. I mentioned earlier the contradiction of actions; at times, "Beatrice" acted like she wanted the people to think of the epitaph as a riddle, at times like she wanted them to think of it as a ritual. I think I've resolved that contradiction.

The epitaph was Kinzo's trap to find the person who had stolen his Beatrice. He believed that the person who had been to Kuwadorian would solve the riddle quickly, and that nobody else would be able to do so. Whenever anybody was visiting the island, Kinzo would be waiting at Kuwadorian with a rifle.

Realizing he wouldn't live to see the next conference, Kinzo asked some trusted associate to carry out some plan. In episodes 1 and 2, the epitaph-as-ritual aspects were played up so that anybody innocent would be less likely to solve the riddle. In episode 3, the letters were too successful. Upon hearing Rosa's story, Kinzo's accomplice realized there would be no justice served in punishing her further, and cancelled the rest of the plan.

Rosa gave a hint to Eva because she guessed that the epitaph might be a trap, and decided to let Eva set it off if it were so.

[Hareoic]

I think we shouldn't discount the chance that there's something unique to that island that the culprit(s) know about and are taking advantage of to further their own agenda. (Remember Hinamizawa Syndrome?)

Then again, I can't begin to guess what it'd be, so I don't have much to support the theory with.

[Jan-Poo]

Episodes 3 and 4 strongly suggest that the epitaph describes how to find Kuwadorian. I mentioned earlier the contradiction of actions; at times, "Beatrice" acted like she wanted the people to think of the epitaph as a riddle, at times like she wanted them to think of it as a ritual. I think I've resolved that contradiction.

The epitaph was Kinzo's trap to find the person who had stolen his Beatrice. He believed that the person who had been to Kuwadorian would solve the riddle quickly, and that nobody else would be able to do so. Whenever anybody was visiting the island, Kinzo would be waiting at Kuwadorian with a rifle.

Realizing he wouldn't live to see the next conference, Kinzo asked some trusted associate to carry out some plan. In episodes 1 and 2, the epitaph-as-ritual aspects were played up so that anybody innocent would be less likely to solve the riddle. In episode 3, the letters were too successful. Upon hearing Rosa's story, Kinzo's accomplice realized there would be no justice served in punishing her further, and cancelled the rest of the plan.

Rosa gave a hint to Eva because she guessed that the epitaph might be a trap, and decided to let Eva set it off if it were so.


I'm actually 99% sure that the place that leads to the secret room is the chapel. There are way too many reasons

1) The inscriptions on the chapel's front tell about the door to the golden land
2) After solving the first part of the riddle Eva says she's going to a place fit for sacrifices (which means she knew that place already)
3) Considering that Rosa and Eva went to the secret room and came back without anyone noticing, the place couldn't be that far from the guesthouse
4) On episode2 three gold ingots are found in the chapel. It is said that those could only come from the treasure room itself. Since each ingot is 10kg. it is unprobable that someone carried those from a far place.
5) Kinzo didn't want anyone to enter the chapel, so much that it's the only place where the master keys do not work.

There are also reasons to doubt about your theory:

Why waiting all those years if he really wanted to find out the culprit? By the way you need to take for granted that Kinzo knew that someone led Beatrice out, while it is possible that he thought she escaped by her own. You also need to take for granted that he was sure it wasn't one of the servants (which would be the firsts i'd suspect), unless you claim that Genji and Kumasawa were the only ones admited to the place (Kanon and Shannon weren't even born at that time, and Beatrice talks about a gardener). Another person i would definitely suspect was Kinzo's wife, however she died long time ago. In other words you need to assume that Kinzo was sure one of his sons did it and that for some reason he decided to wait after his own death to find out who was it, too bad in most of the cases they are the firsts to die.

[rogerpepitone]

Re point 5: The master keys didn't work on the chapel, but the servants still had the key and were expected to clean it several times per year.

[Jan-Poo]

Re point 5: The master keys didn't work on the chapel, but the servants still had the key and were expected to clean it several times per year.

the servants or just Genji? I don't remember. If it was Genji alone it's still valid, Kinzo trusts Genji and Genji is the only one who has the key to Kinzo's private rooms.

errr... unless it's not true and Genji actually got the key after Kinzo's death...

[Marion]

There is only one key to the chapel. In episode 2 Genji didn't have it on him and had to go back to retrieve it from the servants rest room in the mansion.

And that is why I don't approve of your theory Jan. Although you make valid points, if the secret room to the gold was in the chapel then Eva would need a key to get in there. However, the chapel key was taken and used when the parents found Kanon's body. I don't think it mentioned who took the key, but I don't think they would just leave it lying around. Plus, as the head of the family, I'm pretty sure Krauss would insist on having the extra keys (which aren't master ones), including the chapel key.

[kiby]

I found a pretty funny video about "solving the fourth twilight" in episode 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KHxTBs_-GQ&feature=related

I saw a strange video looking like umineko games and maybe "inveting" the 5th game begining...or whateverBattler uses blue truth to fight against lambda and bern........but would it the real way to save his family?....

[Jan-Poo]

There is only one key to the chapel. In episode 2 Genji didn't have it on him and had to go back to retrieve it from the servants rest room in the mansion.

And that is why I don't approve of your theory Jan. Although you make valid points, if the secret room to the gold was in the chapel then Eva would need a key to get in there. However, the chapel key was taken and used when the parents found Kanon's body. I don't think it mentioned who took the key, but I don't think they would just leave it lying around. Plus, as the head of the family, I'm pretty sure Krauss would insist on having the extra keys (which aren't master ones), including the chapel key.


It doesn't have to be inside the chapel, the secret passage could be outside somewhere near the chapel.

anyway for many reason i realize that the key is not that important to support my theory. It suffice the fact that Kinzo didn't want people to mess around it. By the way i think it was stated in red that there's only one key to open the chapel's door.

[Avisch]

It's going like this to me

Episode 1: Good Mystery
Episode 2-3: Good Mindbender
Episode 4: Dear god I feel sorry for the production studio that has to adapt this.

Nice work Witch Hunters!


I cried a bit when Rosa and Maria were in the diner. I like Rosa alot and her tragic relationship with Maria.

And now by the end of these 9 Chapters of course Rosa is looking far less goodwhich makes me sad.

I had slight mixed reactions on the Stakes being featured with Ange. One part of me is like: "YAY MORE STAKE TIME" Another part is like: "Isn't it alittle too perfect for them to befriend Ange?".
But I drown out the latter part and say go with the "MOAR STAKES" side. LUCIFER <3 MAMMON <3

God these games are getting longer and longer.

It's pretty clear that we're meant to feel sorry for Ange, I made the mistake of acknowledging that too early (felt very bad for her at the end of Episode 3). This episode just increases it


Yeah this Episode is crushing my heart.


This is getting out of hand

Episode 1: Real World
Episode 2: Meta World
Episode 3: Meta World and Real World can connect
Episode 4: Meta World + Ange's dreams + Real World (all connect) + possibility of Maria's past being connected to the Meta World aswell.

This making sense to anyone?







"Endless" and "repeating" is one of the themes in Umineko and I'm noticing the theme is very evident with "child abuse cycle" in general. The parents were abused, so they abuse their children, The children...?


I think the ultimate goal of the game story is STOPPING said cycles. ....Er, with that "stopping" not involving DEATH of course >_> . ah, but maybe stopping the cycle is a motive of the killer(s)?



I also believe it is at least connected to murderer in some way. I always remember what Beatrice said in Episode 2 ("You don't have love Kinzo") and now it's been restated by Okonogi (but in a different situation).

[FlashFumo]

I don't know if I'm asking this in the right place or if this warrants a thread, but I couldn't find a "general Umineko" thread.

Question-
Is Umineko set in a time loop, like Higurashi?

Thanks.

[Auria]

Answer
Yes
I think it would be best if you ask such questions in the thread of the translation project, it's used for basic questions as well somehow. But if you're especially interessted in the anime the thread in the "unaired" forum would be an option as well.

[meh]

Answer
Yes


Really? You think so? I doubt that, especially with the hints given in episode 4. But since the story isn't finished nothing is set in stone.

But yes, this question should go into the translation thread.

[Auria]

Really? You think so? I doubt that, especially with the hints given in episode 4. But since the story isn't finished nothing is set in stone.

But yes, this question should go into the translation thread.

Nothing is set in stone yet, of course. But the "time loop" scenario is at least imaginary given.

[meh]

Nothing is set in stone yet, of course. But the "time loop" scenario is at least imaginary given.

The analogy to Schrodinger's Cat and quantum physics is not about repeating an event over and over. But rather the idea that ANYTHING is possible as long as you do not "look" into the box.

A simple analogy would be like me telling you what I ate last night. I can first say I ate a hamburger. Then I can say I ate a pizza. But unless you actually saw/record/"hear from a trusted source" what I actually ate last night, you don't actually know. Hence, I could say that I was eating bricks that tasted like chicken through my ass using magic, and you'd have no way of disproving it. But it doesn't mean that I went through a time-loop 3 times and ate those 3 different things.

[Mercurius]

The patch ended a little earlier than I expected (or I just played faster than normal, never could keep track of how many chapters have passed very well), but it was still very good. Thanks so much to Witch Hunt for their great efforts in making such a high-quality translation.

My notes so far:
-One of the very first lines in the episode talks about the board being cut off on October 4th, and asks "What happened on that day?" Suggesting that maybe the key to the mystery is what happens on the 4th, not the 5th (kinda obvious, but made me realize just how much I was focusing on the events of the 5th til now).

-It's kind of ironic for Battler to view the Blue text as a shotgun, as that was supposedly the weapon that killed him the last episode. I'm guessing Beatrice has an answer for this theory, and I'm afraid it will be to deny person X's existence, which would be the the ultimate mind-bender. I also highly doubt that Kinzo is already dead, as that would require much explanation from the rather many people who had contact with him. Maybe not Kinzo, but someone else is dead and Kinzo is taking their place (Nanjo, perhaps?)

-As mentioned earlier, Kinzo in ep.4 was shown with the same 'empty' eyes that Eva had at the end of ep. 3. That was probably the most intriguing thing as it seems to support the theory of a possible Higurashi-esque type of disease affecting the Ushiromiya family. It also had me starting to think about the possibilities of clones (Beatrice's story plus Lamdadelta also mentioned there being at least one 'fake' in ep.3 as well). In any case, I'm leaning more towards the Anti-Fantasy L5-ish type of explanation for the mysteries on Rokkenjima, and I'm really curious as to the origin of those blank eyes.

-I'm confused as to how Ange ended up on Beatrice's gameboard, but is still investigating the murders in 1998. Different timelines? Different Anges? It's not posing a big problem, but it just seemed to be taken as a given and never even addressed. Also, from ep. 3 I thought we were given the impression that she died from the fall.

-The Police never figure out the murderer nor any explanation for the incident. Now I'm starting to suspect the characters that keep insisting that the police will solve everything on October 6.

-There are at least three big families involved in a conflict, the Sumaderas, the Ushiromiyas, and the Tetsurous. Even though they are introduced after 1986, I think whatever power struggle they were in the midst of had an affect on the events of Rokkenjima.

-Amakusa Juuza. Please excuse my poor Japanese, but does part of his name mean 43 (十三)? Overall, he seems like the love-child of Akasaka and Tomitake (down fangirls, down!!)

-Regarding themes: There seems to be a growing theme of layers. You have the the different dimensional layers (the meta-battlers, Beatrices, 1998 Ange, Gretel, and MARIA/ANGE). There's also the layers to the characters, with often tragic lives hiding inside cheery false exteriors.

P.S. In other news, I just got back from a trip to Japan, which included a pilgrimage to Shirakawa-go (the village that Higurashi used as a model). I also bought two Umineko shirts in Akihabara. I'm really feeling the 07th_Expansion love right now ^^. Does anyone know the location of the 'real' Rokkenjima Island? Would love to visit the mansion.

[Usami_Haru]

The patch ended a little earlier than I expected (or I just played faster than normal, never could keep track of how many chapters have passed very well), but it was still very good. Thanks so much to Witch Hunt for their great efforts in making such a high-quality translation.

My notes so far:
-One of the very first lines in the episode talks about the board being cut off on October 4th, and asks "What happened on that day?" Suggesting that maybe the key to the mystery is what happens on the 4th, not the 5th (kinda obvious, but made me realize just how much I was focusing on the events of the 5th til now).

-It's kind of ironic for Battler to view the Blue text as a shotgun, as that was supposedly the weapon that killed him the last episode. I'm guessing Beatrice has an answer for this theory, and I'm afraid it will be to deny person X's existence, which would be the the ultimate mind-bender. I also highly doubt that Kinzo is already dead, as that would require much explanation from the rather many people who had contact with him. Maybe not Kinzo, but someone else is dead and Kinzo is taking their place (Nanjo, perhaps?)

-As mentioned earlier, Kinzo in ep.4 was shown with the same 'empty' eyes that Eva had at the end of ep. 3. That was probably the most intriguing thing as it seems to support the theory of a possible Higurashi-esque type of disease affecting the Ushiromiya family. It also had me starting to think about the possibilities of clones (Beatrice's story plus Lamdadelta also mentioned there being at least one 'fake' in ep.3 as well). In any case, I'm leaning more towards the Anti-Fantasy L5-ish type of explanation for the mysteries on Rokkenjima, and I'm really curious as to the origin of those blank eyes.

-I'm confused as to how Ange ended up on Beatrice's gameboard, but is still investigating the murders in 1998. Different timelines? Different Anges? It's not posing a big problem, but it just seemed to be taken as a given and never even addressed. Also, from ep. 3 I thought we were given the impression that she died from the fall.

-The Police never figure out the murderer nor any explanation for the incident. Now I'm starting to suspect the characters that keep insisting that the police will solve everything on October 6.

-There are at least three big families involved in a conflict, the Sumaderas, the Ushiromiyas, and the Tetsurous. Even though they are introduced after 1986, I think whatever power struggle they were in the midst of had an affect on the events of Rokkenjima.

-Amakusa Juuza. Please excuse my poor Japanese, but does part of his name mean 43 (十三)? Overall, he seems like the love-child of Akasaka and Tomitake (down fangirls, down!!)

-Regarding themes: There seems to be a growing theme of layers. You have the the different dimensional layers (the meta-battlers, Beatrices, 1998 Ange, Gretel, and MARIA/ANGE). There's also the layers to the characters, with often tragic lives hiding inside cheery false exteriors.

P.S. In other news, I just got back from a trip to Japan, which included a pilgrimage to Shirakawa-go (the village that Higurashi used as a model). I also bought two Umineko shirts in Akihabara. I'm really feeling the 07th_Expansion love right now ^^. Does anyone know the location of the 'real' Rokkenjima Island? Would love to visit the mansion.

I dont know the location but the real Rokkenjiima is actually not on an Island.

[Jan-Poo]

[...]

-It's kind of ironic for Battler to view the Blue text as a shotgun, as that was supposedly the weapon that killed him the last episode.

[...]

-I'm confused as to how Ange ended up on Beatrice's gameboard, but is still investigating the murders in 1998. Different timelines? Different Anges? It's not posing a big problem, but it just seemed to be taken as a given and never even addressed. Also, from ep. 3 I thought we were given the impression that she died from the fall.

[...]

-Amakusa Juuza. Please excuse my poor Japanese, but does part of his name mean 43 (十三)? Overall, he seems like the love-child of Akasaka and Tomitake (down fangirls, down!!)

[...]



P.S. In other news, I just got back from a trip to Japan, which included a pilgrimage to Shirakawa-go (the village that Higurashi used as a model). I also bought two Umineko shirts in Akihabara. I'm really feeling the 07th_Expansion love right now ^^. Does anyone know the location of the 'real' Rokkenjima Island? Would love to visit the mansion.


- I think the winchester model used by the ushiromiya is not a shotgun but a regular single bullet rifle. If it was a shotgun Natsuhi wouldn't have a single hole in her head after being shot.

-About Ange i think that she entered the gameboard at the time she decided to find out the truth about what happened on Rokkenjima. If we refuse that magic exists then the metaworld is not really happening it's just a virtual representation of the battle between rational explanation VS mystical explanation. Battler is inside it because he tries to solve the mistery on the present while Ange is trying to solve it from the future. Normally it would impossible for the two to cooperate but that's where Bernkastel comes into play. She is not able to interact with the physical world but she can make miracles happening through the consciousness of people, pretty much like in Higurashi when people were able to remember the other worlds even though they were not supposed to.
Ah, this is just my personal opinion, not a fact ^^;

- "十三" means thirteen, normally you would read it as "juusan", i have no idea why it is read as "juuza" since it doesn't seem that "za" is one of the possible ways to read the last kanji, but i guess everything is possible with names if "月"can be read as "Raito" and　"戦人" can be read as "Batora".



As far as i know a "real" Rokkenjima doesn't exist, the mansion do exists but it's not on an island, maybe someone else can give more informations on its location.

[Kitsu]

I'm a little bit confused...I kinda get the fellings Bern is lying...she say that the game board is cut off on 4th October or something and that's the reason why Ange can't come physically to Rokkenjima. But if you think properly about this it is just not possible. In Episode 1 Shannon said that she never encountered a golden butterfly or Beatrice in Episode 2 she drank tea with her -.-""". Okay now you can say that was illusion, but later on the time "Beatrice" comes to Rokkenjima both Kanon and Shannon know her already and talk about past happenings. So either Bern is lying or we can really smash everything that has to do with Beatrice in a trashcan. And with everything I mean everything.

[Klashikari]

All the talk about the servants facing beatrice are likely to be false or altered telling of the true scene. Basically speaking, it is hardly possible to consider these points as possible.
Furthermore, the difference is huge here: Ange is bound by her time, and the "ange" there obviously cannot join the family due to the clockwork setting: "Ushiromiya Ange is sick at that period of time".

[Louki]

[...]

-About Ange i think that she entered the gameboard at the time she decided to find out the truth about what happened on Rokkenjima. If we refuse that magic exists then the metaworld is not really happening it's just a virtual representation of the battle between rational explanation VS mystical explanation. Battler is inside it because he tries to solve the mistery on the present while Ange is trying to solve it from the future. Normally it would impossible for the two to cooperate but that's where Bernkastel comes into play. She is not able to interact with the physical world but she can make miracles happening through the consciousness of people, pretty much like in Higurashi when people were able to remember the other worlds even though they were not supposed to.
Ah, this is just my personal opinion, not a fact ^^;

[...]






I think the meta world magic shouldn't be viewed as the magic whose existence Battler (and we ;) ) are trying to disprove. While even now the odds are against Battler, it would be completely impossible for him to win if his very existence would oppose his "magic does not exist" theorem.

This kakera magic definitely exists and has significance for the overall plot. In Higurashi it enabled Rika to travel trough different versions of her world and relive everything in a certain timeframe, finally ending with the accumulation of experiences from the preceding worlds persisting in a new kakera.

In Umineko Battler is residing above those worlds, inside a meta space which connects all kakera (the game boards). Meta Battler is the same existence as the Battler in Ep1. However unlike Rika in Higurashi he himself does not relive the events, he is more like an observer. The physical Battler does not seem to know about the previous worlds and also does not seem to be aware of Meta Battler, however they still seem to share parts of their consciousness. My best guess is that Meta Battler has the same relationship to his physical counterpart as Bernkastel had to Rika in Higurashi.

[Mikachiru]

First Battler mentions goat headed people appearing, then wishes Kinzo would let him call him Goldsmith. Is it me or is Battler getting his wishes fufilled by some omniscient Santa?:D

[Marion]

Dude. I think we DO need to throw some stuff out about Beatrice potentially.

Okay, so I did some math. Now according to Rosa's story, she was about in middle school when Beatrice from 1967 died. Middle school in Japan basically happens between the ages of 12-15, so we can say Rosa was around that age when she met 1967 Beato.

Now, according to the game, George is 23 I believe (it mentioned his official age in the 1st game and I'm pretty sure it said 22 or 23). So subtract 1986 from 23 and George was born in 1963 - four years BEFORE 1967 Beato died.

There's more - Jessica and Battler were both born a year after this happened, but we also need to consider that Natsuhi was married to Krauss for a very long time before she became pregnant with Jessica. Maria was also born 10 years after 1967 Beato died as well.

@____@ This may be irrelevant, but something really weird with timelines is happening, which is honestly leading me to believe that the ENTIRE story of 1967 Beato might be potentially a lie.

[Varion]

P.S. In other news, I just got back from a trip to Japan, which included a pilgrimage to Shirakawa-go (the village that Higurashi used as a model). I also bought two Umineko shirts in Akihabara. I'm really feeling the 07th_Expansion love right now ^^. Does anyone know the location of the 'real' Rokkenjima Island? Would love to visit the mansion.
There is no Rokkenjima Island, and there's no single mansion model either. It's supposed to be part of the Izu Islands (which are real), and the mansion itself is made up of parts of separate mansions in Tokyo. The guesthouse is from Kyuufurukawa Teien (http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%97%A7%E5%8F%A4%E6%B2%B3%E5%BA%AD%E5%9C%92). The head house is a western style house in Komaba Kouen (http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%A7%92%E5%A0%B4%E5%85%AC%E5%9C%92_(%E7%9B%AE%E9 %BB%92%E5%8C%BA)#.E6.97.A7.E5.89.8D.E7.94.B0.E4.BE .AF.E7.88.B5.E9.82.B8) in Meguro. The chapel is part of another western style house in Kyuu Iwasakitei Teien (http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%97%A7%E5%B2%A9%E5%B4%8E%E9%82%B8%E5%BA%AD%E5%9 C%92). As for the inner rooms, a lot are from the house in Meguro, the rest are taken from a wide variety of other mansions in Yamate, Yokohama. Kinzou's study is in Dairisekimura Rock Heart castle (http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%A4%A7%E7%90%86%E7%9F%B3%E6%9D%91%E3%83%AD%E3%8 3%83%E3%82%AF%E3%83%8F%E3%83%BC%E3%83%88%E5%9F%8E) in Gunma prefecture, and the room used in the Hidden tea parties in episode 1 and 2 is in Ogasawara Hakushakutei (http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%B0%8F%E7%AC%A0%E5%8E%9F%E4%BC%AF%E7%88%B5%E9%8 2%B8) in Shinjuku.

There's loads of information like this in the Japanese wikipedia article for the game (http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%81%86%E3%81%BF%E3%81%AD%E3%81%93%E3%81%AE%E3%8 1%AA%E3%81%8F%E9%A0%83%E3%81%AB#.E8.88.9E.E5.8F.B0 .E3.81.AE.E3.83.A2.E3.83.87.E3.83.AB), which is where I've got all this from. Planning to do the tour myself later in the year (pencilled in Shirakawa for May when a fellow Higurashi fan is coming over to Japan, heh).

[Mikachiru]

Dude. I think we DO need to throw some stuff out about Beatrice potentially.

Okay, so I did some math. Now according to Rosa's story, she was about in middle school when Beatrice from 1967 died. Middle school in Japan basically happens between the ages of 12-15, so we can say Rosa was around that age when she met 1967 Beato.

Now, according to the game, George is 23 I believe (it mentioned his official age in the 1st game and I'm pretty sure it said 22 or 23). So subtract 1986 from 23 and George was born in 1963 - four years BEFORE 1967 Beato died.

There's more - Jessica and Battler were both born a year after this happened, but we also need to consider that Natsuhi was married to Krauss for a very long time before she became pregnant with Jessica. Maria was also born 10 years after 1967 Beato died as well.

@____@ This may be irrelevant, but something really weird with timelines is happening, which is honestly leading me to believe that the ENTIRE story of 1967 Beato might be potentially a lie.

...Genius. Why didn't I catch that?:heh:

This would mean that the said story couldn't of happened when they were in middle school, unless they somehow got married and laid in middle school.:uhoh: Like you said...

Beatrice's death- 1967
Battler/Jessica- 1968
George- 1963
Maria- 1977

I can't remember how many years Natsuhi and Eva tried to have kids but I'm pretty sure it was like 8 or 10 years...

[crazysjd89]

I recall it being said that Rosa is significantly younger than the other three, so that timeline is not completly out of the question.

[Mercurius]

There is no Rokkenjima Island, and there's no single mansion model either. It's supposed to be part of the Izu Islands (which are real), and the mansion itself is made up of parts of separate mansions in Tokyo. The guesthouse is from Kyuufurukawa Teien (http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%97%A7%E5%8F%A4%E6%B2%B3%E5%BA%AD%E5%9C%92). The head house is a western style house in Komaba Kouen (http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%A7%92%E5%A0%B4%E5%85%AC%E5%9C%92_(%E7%9B%AE%E9 %BB%92%E5%8C%BA)#.E6.97.A7.E5.89.8D.E7.94.B0.E4.BE .AF.E7.88.B5.E9.82.B8) in Meguro. The chapel is part of another western style house in Kyuu Iwasakitei Teien (http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%97%A7%E5%B2%A9%E5%B4%8E%E9%82%B8%E5%BA%AD%E5%9 C%92). As for the inner rooms, a lot are from the house in Meguro, the rest are taken from a wide variety of other mansions in Yamate, Yokohama. Kinzou's study is in Dairisekimura Rock Heart castle (http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%A4%A7%E7%90%86%E7%9F%B3%E6%9D%91%E3%83%AD%E3%8 3%83%E3%82%AF%E3%83%8F%E3%83%BC%E3%83%88%E5%9F%8E) in Gunma prefecture, and the room used in the Hidden tea parties in episode 1 and 2 is in Ogasawara Hakushakutei (http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%B0%8F%E7%AC%A0%E5%8E%9F%E4%BC%AF%E7%88%B5%E9%8 2%B8) in Shinjuku.

There's loads of information like this in the Japanese wikipedia article for the game (http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%81%86%E3%81%BF%E3%81%AD%E3%81%93%E3%81%AE%E3%8 1%AA%E3%81%8F%E9%A0%83%E3%81%AB#.E8.88.9E.E5.8F.B0 .E3.81.AE.E3.83.A2.E3.83.87.E3.83.AB), which is where I've got all this from. Planning to do the tour myself later in the year (pencilled in Shirakawa for May when a fellow Higurashi fan is coming over to Japan, heh).Oh wow, thanks for the info! I somehow knew that the locations would be spread out, as it would be highly dubious for all these buildings to be on some random island that actually existed. Kinda wish I had known the mansion parts were in Tokyo (curse the insufficient english wiki), as I would've at least attempted to visit them.

Shirakawago was awesome, except it was in March and it was still under lots of heavy snow, and the shrine was closed (opens on 4/1). Definitely will need to revisit it (along with the Umineko mansions) during the summertime.

- I think the winchester model used by the ushiromiya is not a shotgun but a regular single bullet rifle. If it was a shotgun Natsuhi wouldn't have a single hole in her head after being shot.

- "十三" means thirteen, normally you would read it as "juusan", i have no idea why it is read as "juuza" since it doesn't seem that "za" is one of the possible ways to read the last kanji, but i guess everything is possible with names if "月"can be read as "Raito" and　"戦人" can be read as "Batora".
-Ah yes, it's a sawed-off rifle capable of rapid-fire. But that actually reminds me that the multiple Blue Truths tactic is similar to the one employed by EVA and Beatrice in Ep.3 with all the red. Wondering just how effective it will be for Battler, or if Beatrice already sees it coming.

-Omigosh, I totally knew that first character was a 10, not 4. That's what I get for posting in a sleep-deprived state. But it's still VERY interesting that we have a character whose given name is a play on a number.

[theacefrehley]

I don't see anything wrong with this timeline


And one more thing...
Beatrice's death is not in 1967 for sure
1967 is the year Kinzo and Beatrice had that talk.
Nothing mentioned about the year of her death, if I remember well
"Rosa's adventures" that led to Beaatrice's death, according to the captain (EP4), was in 1968. (well, he mentions 'around 30 years ago, and he is in 1998...)

[HigurashinoUmineko]

Geez you guys are lucky that you have the time and probably the money to visit these places. Shirakawa seems like a very calm place to just walk around at...and those mansions look so big! But they're in Tokyo area...I've been to Tokyo alot before but I never see them...They look seriously isolated. Anyways sorry if I got really off-topic...

[lovelysan]

He's Sho Minamimoto's twin! Minamimoto!

http://twewy.wikia.com/wiki/Sho_Minamimoto

Even his pants have the same rips! XD . I'm totally convinced Juuza's appearance is an homage to TWEWY. (So Zetta awesome XD .)

[Jan-Poo]

They do look very similar! °°

Then i guess the number name is an homage too, but why 13?
Is it yet another "hitchhicker's guide to the galaxy" reference because 6x9=42 on base 13? Or is it because 13 is known as an unlucky number?

By the way did anyone notice that if Kinzo participated to the family dinner there would have been 13 people? In some cultures there is still this superstition that you should never have 13 persons at the same table (reminiscence of the"last supper" in christianity) else great misfortune would befall on you. Of course it's perfectly normal that noone in the game thinks about it because that's not part of the japanese culture, Maria should know 'though.

[Jan-Poo]

"Around 30 years" might as well be 31 years. You don't really expect someone to be so precise after such a long time. It might not be 100% sure Beatrice died in 1967, but a good 90% it is.
Anyway i think Rosa must be around 30-32 years old, meaning she got pregnant soon after her twenties. This also means that Rosa and George are not so far in age, there's probably a bigger time gap between her and Krauss.

[theacefrehley]

The reason I think she died in 1968 is because Battler was born in this year, and I wanted to make the connection somehow! :heh:
Since he is the protagonist and such...

[theacefrehley]

- "十三" means thirteen, normally you would read it as "juusan", i have no idea why it is read as "juuza" since it doesn't seem that "za" is one of the possible ways to read the last kanji, but i guess everything is possible with names if "月"can be read as "Raito" and　"戦人" can be read as "Batora".





A name reading doesn't need necessarily be the same as the common nouns reading
If it was meant to be the number 13, it'd be juu-san, but it is a name.

三 has a bunch of nanori, among them, there's the 'za'. In this case, it's not going that far as with Yagami Raito or Batora.

[Jan-Poo]

Ah you mean he might be Beatrice's son? that would be interesting ^^; (OMG! Then BeatricexBattler is incest!)
But there's still the possibility that Battler has born in 1967 but on late october, november or dicember. That would make him still 18 at the time of the game.

[theacefrehley]

Ah you mean he might be Beatrice's son? that would be interesting ^^; (OMG! Then BeatricexBattler is incest!)
But there's still the possibility that Battler has born in 1967 but on late october, november or dicember. That would make him still 18 at the time of the game.

To tell the truth, if not Battler's, I think Beato might even be Jessica's mother (both are blonde right? hehe)
And Natsuhi had trouble to have babies (maybe sterile?), so, if she, Beatrice, was a prisoner, who knows what kind of perversions Kinzo (and Krauss) might have made her go through... :heh:

And also;
As for Battler;
When the mysterious number, 07151129, appeared at the end of EP3, we learned that Battler's birthday is July, 15th. (unless this date is wrong and he was indoctrinated to believe this is the date of his birthday)

[Jan-Poo]

Uhm i have a question that requires some knowledge about japan and japanese school system.

My limited knowledge tells me that learning how to read kanji takes several years to be fully mastered. I also know that Kanjis are divided in differents "grades" from 1 to 9. This classification comes from the fact that on the japanese school system each grade teaches a set of kanjis.

So on grade1 childrean learns 80 kanji
On grade 2 they learn 160 kanji
Grade 3 = 200
Grade 4 = 200
Grade 5 = 185
Grade 6 = 180

and that's it for the elementary school

On junior high school they need to learn all the remaining 939 kanji that are commonly used, which are practically the same amount they learned on the previous 6 years.

Supposing that i'm right so far, and considering that first grade starts at age 6, Maria is only supposed to know around 500 kanji. So is it normal for her to be able to read Beatrice's letter and Beatrice's epitaph without any problem?

Considering that she is also able to read and understand english one could says she's far beyond any child of her age, however according to the story she does terribly at school. I guess she is very bad at math and other scientific lessons, but wouldn't her ability to read and understand languages deserve a praise?

[Jan-Poo]

Yeah it's hard to believe that the old dirty man didn't do anything. There might be indeed more about what happened to the real Beatrice, something tells me that in the end we'll end up seeing her as the victim of an atrocious crime whose all of the Ushiromiya in a way or another are guilty. Yeah maybe we'll end up thinking that they deserve to die ^^;;;

[Kitsu]

Well even if something terrible happened to Beatrice. I don't think that their would be a reason for at least Kanon, Shannon and Maria to die. They weren't even born and Battler/Jessica were more likely born about that time. But I have to agree maybe everyone on that island on that did something ehm...not so good in the past. Which would fit into the picture because Umineko is very similar to Agatha Christie's "And then there were none" (Is that the right title? Only know the german title).

Also...am I the only one that thinks that it is really strange that except Kinzo everyone of the old Ushiromiya died? It is too much for a coincidence . Also that whole thing with the Fukoin House (the orphanage),.....feels a little bit strange.

[rogerpepitone]

In the case of Ten Little Indians / And Then There Were None, the villain had the luxury of choosing the guests to fit his plan. In this case, "Beatrice" had very little control over who would attend. (Kinzo, Krauss, Natsuhi, and possibly others, could manipulate the duty roster to affect which servants would be on duty, but otherwise, who would attend can't be changed.)

The book ends with everyone dying, the police ultimately fail, and is finally solved when somebody finds a note in a bottle from the killer.

[rogerpepitone]

Wildspec: Considering the age gap, what if Rosa is actually Kinzo's granddaughter, done to cover a teen pregnancy? (Wouldn't seem to matter much, unless she's Krauss's daughter, in which case she might come ahead of Jessica in succession.)

[maximilianjenus]

I have personally been through that, being able to do in school stuff that you are not supossed to do does not get any praise.


About ange being able to exist on both the "real world" and the "meta world" I think it's a case similar to that of akasaka, in which her real world antics are what normally happens after eva beatrice's arc, and somehow all her build up feelings allow her to get to the meta world, just like riak brought akasaka to the last kakera. since she is being left in the meta world, she does nto lose her memories. There is a high chance of her having a lot of information battler lacks because of ehr investigations.

[WhiteFrost]

In the case of Ten Little Indians / And Then There Were None, the villain had the luxury of choosing the guests to fit his plan. In this case, "Beatrice" had very little control over who would attend. (Kinzo, Krauss, Natsuhi, and possibly others, could manipulate the duty roster to affect which servants would be on duty, but otherwise, who would attend can't be changed.)

The book ends with everyone dying, the police ultimately fail, and is finally solved when somebody finds a note in a bottle from the killer.

I'm not sure that Umineko would be exactly as And Then There Were None, instead of the villain planning everything in detail it should be enough to know that exactly these people are going to attend and realize that the situation is perfect and use that to kill them.
In a way that might fit to why the killer would wait so long, he/she simply waited for the best moment to strike.

[Kitsu]

Like WhiteFrost said it is not exactly like And Then there were none. But there is also the possibility that the culprit planned beforehand how he would do it's, because it's the family conference he knew who would attend which is a advantage. Also it was said that this year (1986) no one was missing from the siblings, which suggests that one or two couldn't make it to the conference before. So the culprit waited with his plan till finally everyone was attending.

And again..because it really is strange

Am I the only one that thinks that it is really strange that except Kinzo everyone of the old Ushiromiya died? It is too much for a coincidence. Also that whole thing with the Fukoin House (the orphanage was called that or?),feels a little bit strange.

[Jan-Poo]

I find more strange that Kinzo is allowed to make children work for him. I mean... it's Japan, there should be laws that forbid that... isn't..?

Compulsory education in Japan lasts until the end of junior high (age 15), so while it's not strange Kanon and Shannon do not attend school right now, i find strange the idea that they used to take the same boat Jessica is boarding every day and then went back to Rokkenjima just to work even more.

[Kitsu]

It's fiction...but Shannon goes to school that for sure. She said that herself in episode 2, I don't know about Kanon though. He seems not to because he was all like "Whoa that's a high school?" in Episode 2.
As far I know the world children rights say that children with the age of 16 are allowed to work as far it doesn't collide with their school or being exploited,hurt or mistreat in any way. Also they are not allowed to work longer then 40 hours a week. Which Kanon and Shannon do. So yeah Kinzo violates the rule of child labor. But it takes place in 1986 I don't know if Japan had signed the contract at that time. Also someone said Shannon is 16, she worked there for 10 years. A 6 year old maid!?!? OMG Kinzo is a pervert...*coughcough* No seriously what would anyone want with a 6 year old maid? Kanon started to work with 13 ...so yeah they violated the rules of child labor so badly that it makes me want to throw up. To add that the whole Fukoin house is allowed? Shouldn't orphanages support the children and not teach them how to be a servants and tell them "You are furniture! NOT HUMAN!" !?!?!?


Still the surviving of Kinzo alone for me is just too much luck.

[Cola91]

Screw the rules!! Kinzo has money!

[Mi-Delta]

To add that the whole Fukoin house is allowed? Shouldn't orphanages support the children and not teach them how to be a servants and tell them "You are furniture! NOT HUMAN!" !?!?!?

I think the Fukuin House also abuses some children and tell them that... :uhoh:

[Kitsu]

I think the Fukuin House also abuses some children and tell them that... :uhoh:

Physical abuse? Well I don't know, it would explain Kanon's "I-had-a-bad-childhood-screw-you-I'm-allowed-to-be-the-sad-silent-bastard-syndrome" but I think phsical abuse is a little too much. I think mental abuse is enough

[rogerpepitone]

Just rereading. Battler mentioned in ep. 1 that Rosa is good about remembering her promises, wrt. Kumasawa's tea. In light of ep. 4, she must not be making an effort.

[Jan-Poo]

probably Battler doesn't really know her true face.

[Kitsu]

Another thing that annoys me...if the game board was truly cute at the forth October then Rosa must have had the tea already and so she has to bring it in every episode

[rogerpepitone]

Kanon mentioned he learned harmonica and recorder in elementary school.

As for the tea, I was taking it more that Rosa does care about keeping her promises, except towards her daughter.

[izmosmolnar]

I still haven't progressed very far, but I was just thinking what would happen if at the very beginning (immediately after Beato announces her challenge regardless of scenario) 6 of the 18 people would commit suicide? Wouldn't that obstruct her in her plans? The remaining 12 people wouldn't be enough to make 13 sacrifice, so she couldn't execute her own plan.
It would make sense if they pull straws or something to decide who is gonna do harakiri (with the exception of grandpa Sean Connery, as it's unlikely he would be convincable to go along). They are Japanese anyway, the people of Kamikaze, surely the idea wouldn't be that unthinkable to do (not to mention that some people would even volunteer I think).

Or suicide would count as Beato's sacrifice too? She doesn't always need some kinda spell or announcement just before someone dies to make it count as an official sacrifice (like how she announced by the Kanon-Jessica murder).

[tcaz2]

I still haven't progressed very far, but I was just thinking what would happen if at the very beginning (immediately after Beato announces her challenge regardless of scenario) 6 of the 18 people would commit suicide? Wouldn't that obstruct her in her plans? The remaining 12 people wouldn't be enough to make 13 sacrifice, so she couldn't execute her own plan.
It would make sense if they pull straws or something to decide who is gonna do harakiri (with the exception of grandpa Sean Connery, as it's unlikely he would be convincable to go along). They are Japanese anyway, the people of Kamikaze, surely the idea wouldn't be that unthinkable to do (not to mention that some people would even volunteer I think).

Or suicide would count as Beato's sacrifice too? She doesn't always need some kinda spell or announcement just before someone dies to make it count as an official sacrifice (like how she announced by the Kanon-Jessica murder).

Witches don't exist (so I proclaim), so they'd be 'the first 6 sacrifices' because 6 people died :)

[Larrave]

Like a few times said, we cant completely deny the fact that Beatrice as a Medium exists- if we do so we should deny Meta Battler too and those whole conversations as a whole .
So i guess if Beatrice has some influence on this game she wouldnt dare to show Battler a gameboard which would harm her so much that she hadnt any other Chance then to forfeit the Head-on-Fight against Battler.
Of course if she might be just Hanyuu-like, only being able to pop up some random world(i hope im correct with that statement) this could be really somehow troublesome at least on the long run.However it was said her board would be perfect.

[Jan-Poo]

I still haven't progressed very far, but I was just thinking what would happen if at the very beginning (immediately after Beato announces her challenge regardless of scenario) 6 of the 18 people would commit suicide? Wouldn't that obstruct her in her plans? The remaining 12 people wouldn't be enough to make 13 sacrifice, so she couldn't execute her own plan.
It would make sense if they pull straws or something to decide who is gonna do harakiri (with the exception of grandpa Sean Connery, as it's unlikely he would be convincable to go along). They are Japanese anyway, the people of Kamikaze, surely the idea wouldn't be that unthinkable to do (not to mention that some people would even volunteer I think).

Or suicide would count as Beato's sacrifice too? She doesn't always need some kinda spell or announcement just before someone dies to make it count as an official sacrifice (like how she announced by the Kanon-Jessica murder).

Interesting thought but in order to answer we'd need to have a deeper understanding on the reasons behind the murderers and we don't have the slightest. To make a comparison with Higurashi, without knowing the whole story it's impossible to understand why when Rika kills herself the "Hinamizawa disaster" doesn't happen.

[Dormeur]

They do look very similar! °°

Then i guess the number name is an homage too, but why 13?
Is it yet another "hitchhicker's guide to the galaxy" reference because 6x9=42 on base 13? Or is it because 13 is known as an unlucky number?

By the way did anyone notice that if Kinzo participated to the family dinner there would have been 13 people? In some cultures there is still this superstition that you should never have 13 persons at the same table (reminiscence of the"last supper" in christianity) else great misfortune would befall on you. Of course it's perfectly normal that noone in the game thinks about it because that's not part of the japanese culture, Maria should know 'though.

I guess 13 is from Golgo 13, a very popular sniper in Manga.
But it's possible that it is from Western superstition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golgo_13

[maximilianjenus]

I have always had the small theory that beatrice is somehow the victim in this world, liek riak was, but the rules/lambda delta don't allow her to ask for help.

[Ichy]

How expensive are the games? I think about playing Umineko but buying 4 of them at once + shipping... :upset:

[theacefrehley]

How expensive are the games? I think about playing Umineko but buying 4 of them at once + shipping... :upset:

Each game includes the previous ones
EP4 comes with EP1+EP2+EP3

[Ichy]

Each game includes the previous ones
EP4 comes with EP1+EP2+EP3

Awesome! :D

[izmosmolnar]

First of all, I wish to Chrono all the best throughout the exams, and a huge thanks for everything you did for us non-moonspeak tongued individuals so far.

Second: I am a bit confused about all the events and minor/major "contradictions" in episode 3. I wonder if someone wiser than me can clarify what I don't understand, without spoiling anything (if it's impossible, just say that I'm gonna see in future episodes)


OK, where shall I start. I may be completely off as I don't know the future events yet, but based upon what Beato-Beatrice tells us about magic (and if I follow the theory that some kinda magic should exist in the first place), I have to assume what she says. Which is that without risks involved it is only possible to perform minor magic (or not even that, it's not clarified that much). So that's why the riddle on her portait is there, and that's why in almost all the letters she encourages the survivors to solve it, so she can increase the risks, which makes her more powerful (or she might not even gain anything from that, and she only does just for the thrill, I'm not sure).
But obviously she has to follow the rules she made, so that's why she gave the title of Beatrice -which I presume after all what I've seen so far, comes with the ability to perform magic for even people with zero experience in it (magic of the same kind with butterflies, reviving and stuff), all the furniture and the heir should continue the same Ceremony (of course the ceremony is part of the riddle itself).

Yeah but if the heir inherites everything which made Beato "Beatrice" than Eva-Beatrice should have inherited the very same weakness (the portrait riddle) especially if we keep it in mind that, she shouldn't be able to perform such magnificent magic like summoning those future loli sisters with zero risks involved.
But if all that's true, than 5 minutes later after Eva's alterego was made into "Beatrice" than we should have seen that Eva Beatrice gives up everything to Rosa, since she solved the riddle 5 minutes later after her (them?). So why didn't happened?

If the risk-magic law is true, than Eva-Beatrice should have established a different risk-factor/weakness in such a short time (probably during her promotion) with complete lack of previous experience, and to such a degree which allows her to perform miraculous magic (even if she has awesome talent in it there should be some risk involved). If that's so, why should she follow the ritual in the first place?
If she strictly has to follow the ritual she should have gave her position to Rosa, because she was the last one to discover the hidden gold.
Or it's also a possible answer that throughout one ceremony/board game/scenario, only the very first discoverer inherits the Beatrice position, and whoever discovers it after her/him doesn't matter, since only one coup d'état can happen. But that's a contradiction with the magic-risk law, because there is no risk involved that the new Beatrice can lose her/his position. In which case Eva-Beatrice shouldn't be able to summon badass future loli nee-chans.

TL,DR: So why is that Eva's alterego didn't had to give up her "Beatrice" position to Rosa, the discoverer of the hidden gold after her?

The other thing I wonder: as far as I seen so far, Kinzo's only objective is to reunite with her eternal love Beato. That's why he established the ceremony in the first place, so if Lady Luck sides with him, and he is going the be along the last survivors he can meet with her again (well not like I'd consider him lucky in episode 2 :) ). But the thing is, that his chances would be a lot better to do that if he invites more people to the island. With each more people he could have gotten better chance to be victorious.
If he can only perform the ceremony with 18 people than why was he surprised that Battler comes this year? Did he predicted it? However if the 18 is a strict number he has to follow, in that case we could easily wreck both his and Beatrice's plan by killing/suiciding one people at the beginning so the number wouldn't be 18 (or an even easier solution without killing anyone: sabotaging the transfer ship's engine so the crew have to spend the night there).

If you can perform it with more than 18 people why doesn't he invite old acquintances, family friends or even more servants to increase the number of people and have a better chance?