View Full Version : Claymore Chapter 86
Clare has partially awakened more than Miria, and got spare parts. Give Miria Teresa's left arm and make her return from awakening and she could pull ahead again, probably. (...)
Probably not. I don't think that anyone except Clare could handle Teresa's massive strength. To use her arm one would need not only to be compatible but also strong enough. I think you're overestimating Miria and underestimating Teresa. Anyway, Miria is totally different than Clare who's 1/4 youma so it may be the reason why Clare could handle her partial awakenings so well.
I don't agree with you that Yagi has showed us Miria and Clare being roughly of equal strength. If anything he showed that Clare is the strongest of the seven. In the slashers arc Clare appeared to Miria as the strongest. In Pieta Clare was the one that didn't have any injuries till the last moment we've seen her, while Miria was covered in blood, breathing heavily. Well, Clare breathed heavily too but it didn't prevent her from using her youki and no matter how stupid it may seem, in Miria's case Yagi used three big panels to show her exhaustion and for Clare only one small (maybe I'm jumping to conclusions but what better way to show it in a manga).
As for their second duel, Clare was testing Miria at first. She gradually quickened her pace and it was Miria that decided to stop (in my personal opinion it was because she was afraid Clare might become too serious). Also Clare was at disadvantage from the start, they were fighting in the open where Miria could use her abilities to the fullest and at the same time Clare would have most trouble. If it was in confined space the fight would be one-sided. Not to mention even the ground in this snowy and icy area was conveniently rough so that Miria could make moves such as „_]” and instantly go behind Clare without falling to the ground because of overpowering force of static friction.
And about Miata sensing them, she stated only that 2 of the ghosts were much stronger than the rest but she doesn't imply that both of them are equally strong. We don't even know if Clare's scent wouldn't change if she partially awakened again or if she released some of her youki.
To me, Clare outgrowing the rest is a fact even now and it's a good thing too.
@KillerYomaFromSpace
Miria superior? Not a chance. I don't understand what's wrong with Clare being the strongest, she deserves it, she's very interesting character, much more interesting than Miria IMO. Also I don't understand why would you assume that Miria would lie to Clare that she felt as if she was the strongest?
What would be so vexing about Clare outgrowing everyone else? And how would that be different from normal plotting of common boy-comics themes? Where we may expect two characters, even if they be friends, who rival each other in power to remain as close as they can be, at some point one or the other gets the edge eventually and they are separated from then on.Nothing vexing, but it just seems to me that Yagi is developing his story based on two superpowers among the Ghosts. It's not so much that I want it, but more that I think it will happen given the clues given so far. I don't really care either way.
Of course, after that it's a matter of interpretation, I can see, as Gooral shows, that not everyone would consider those Miria/Clare juxtaposition in the same light as I do
I think there's something else worth looking at. There seems to be a pattern with Clare's power ups, where each time she does someone else loses her life for it. It started with Teresa, then with Raki (who was spared by plot device), then Irene, then Jean. I think what we should prepare for is a probability that Miria will bet it all on Clare who will take upon herself the sum of Miria's hopes, and towards achieving their common end Miria would voluntarily give her own life in order to put capital into Clare's success.Each time anyone in a fiction does anything, it by plot device...
Anyway, Miria never struck me to be as close to Clare as the former dead Claymores were, and the story changed from Clare+sidekick to Clare among other people. I think the dynamic between Clare and Miria is different for these reasons and as such there is no "preparation" for Miria to become the next powerup excuse for Clare, unlike with people such as Flora or Raki. Even now, I think that the one with the best "potential" in death is still Raki.
Sleepy Speculator
2008-12-17, 07:35
Why does everyone post whilst i'm asleep? damn timezones.
I do agree with you at least on one thing again Gooral and that is, that Clare may be the only half awakened that can actually partially awaken and get away with it, certainly the only 'offensive' one willing and able to do it. Since Miria's one was shown in the presence of Ophelia, and Helen said she got carried away (with a bit of a red face as well).
With regards to what Miata senses however, when she met Clarice she could sense her yoki, but with the ghosts can only measure them with her sixth sense.
Now this is where it gets convuluted, Clare *had* a weak yoki signature but access to another pool of yoki which is evident when she overused her yoki, either by half awakening or by overusing too much in general. This is Clare's 'potential' which she has inherited.
Miria - "it felt as if the strongest was standing before me" - Miria isn't a sensor type but she actually sensed something, so probably yoki related.
Renee - "deep within it's consciousness, yes even deeper than that...what i found after diving so deep was a condensed youki" - whilst this is about Raciella, it indicates that the otherwise non yoki radiating freakish coffee table actually has a vast amount of youki, and that the sensing type Renee couldn't even tell until she went looking for it.
So if Clare is carrying a portion of Teresa it wouldn't be surprising to find that this is 'potential' but buried yoki. Now onto Clarice...
Clarice's only chance for her yoki to be measured would be if a sensing type read her signature, which leads to the confusing moment where Galatea who is blind doesn't seem to know what's going on
- either her yoki changed so significantly that Galatea didn't recognise it as her, which caused her to question 'colored hair?' or
- her yoki signature completely disappeared, during an increase in performance that in any other claymore would have them radiating like a beacon.
I of course believe she somehow managed the second, but it still implies for Clarice a vast and unexplained improvement. What better explanation than the precedent set by Clare?
Clarice after all believes what she was told and that she was 'special' the only other time i've seen that word in Claymore was with regards to Clare who had the designation 'special soldier' in training.
The only other claymore close enough to Clarice to tell has been Miata who went from attacking her at first sight to believing she's her mama. And whilst she's been saving Clarice constantly she also seems to not think that her 'mama' would get pulped by Agatha saying 'don't run away mama' (yes i know she's an unstable little kid, but she don't seem to think that mama would actualy get killed, to the extent that she actually seems confused when Clarice does run)
As to the why didn't she say anything about Clarice saying the more powerful comment, Miata didn't have much chance as she was busy apologising for getting wounded.
If Miata was more verbose it would help, but she doesn't really say much...
SagaraSouske
2008-12-17, 12:10
Ever since scene 18, there had been so much insults thrown around, casting doubt about Teresa's rightful place in the world. You know, all of that BS starting with Priscilla surpassing Teresa and Alicia being the strongest in their annals. Then the very object that inherited Teresa's legacy gets bad mouthed by an ignorant pair, her face pummeled to the ground like every other page, Miria presumably having been through much worse and therefore becoming that much stronger, it's enough to make one sick.
There were never much doubt on Teresa's position as the strongest warrior ever. The BS is not about Priscilla surpassing Teresa or Alicia being the strongest but rather about putting Teresa ten millions miles above everyone else.
(...) she also seems to not think that her 'mama' would get pulped by Agatha saying 'don't run away mama' (yes i know she's an unstable little kid, but she don't seem to think that mama would actualy get killed, to the extent that she actually seems confused when Clarice does run) (...)
Correction, Miata said "Run away... Don't die, mama". Both shrimpy and gernot (jp->en translators residing at mangahelpers) admitted that and 10sigh wrote he's not sure and made second version of page 16 where Miata says "run away". At least I think it's been decided that's correct translation. Maybe someone could clear this once and for all.
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=1385451&postcount=405
I thought about this but then Clarice's "I'm sorry, I can't do this" reaction didn't make sense to me anymore. I would have expected some guilt filled "thank you" or "I won't forget this" or whatever. She was already running when Miata said that stuff anyways, Miata's outstretchted hand looks more like a "stay here" gesture to me just like her post-"I can't do this"-face looks more disappointed to me... And yeah, no "die" kanji... plus I've actually seen typos in raws before... And ”逃げてしないで”gives me around 10000 results on Google. "Natural" enough in my humble opinion.
Damn Japanese with its endless similar sounding words, damn Yagi with his ambiguous facial expressions and dramatization...
Well, replace page at your own judgement. ;>_>
Fenrir_valindri
2008-12-17, 12:17
I actually believe that was a mistranslation tbh, I was looking at the RAW around the time when the chapter came out and I'm pretty sure that it says "Run Away" instead of "Don't Run Away" implying that Miata was holding Agatha off so Clarice could escape. Which also makes sense considering the context of the situation.
Sleepy Speculator
2008-12-17, 12:31
ah another mistranslation, cheers for the correction i can't read japanese or chinese so i have to rely on translations, but still, why would Clarice then say "i'm sorry i can't" whilst actually legging it, *if* she's being asked to run away anyway. And Miata was pinned at the time, meaning she can't do much 'holding off', it's like saying i got everything under control whilst on fire and being eaten by an asbestos tiger.
ah another mistranslation, cheers for the correction i can't read japanese or chinese so i have to rely on translations, but still, why would Clarice then say "i'm sorry i can't" whilst actually legging it, *if* she's being asked to run away anyway. And Miata was pinned at the time, meaning she can't do much 'holding off', it's like saying i got everything under control whilst on fire and being eaten by an asbestos tiger.
And why would Agatha say: "How valiant" towards Miata if it was "don't run away", there would be nothing courageous if Miata said that, rather the opposite. And after saying "I'm sorry, I can't/I just can't do this" she really ran, so I think that "run away" makes more sense.
Edit: Just to be clear, by saying "I just can't do this" Clarice wasn't talking to Miata but to herself, meaning she can't do anything against Agatha so she ran.
Sleepy Speculator
2008-12-17, 13:12
The problem is the ambiguity from that statement remains...
path 1.
Miata... don't run mama
Agatha... courageaous/valiant aren't we?
Clarice... i'm sorry miata , i can't
<runs away>
Agatha... <laughs> she's actually running away
path 2.
Miata... run away mama
Agatha... courageaous/valiant aren't we?
Clarice... i'm sorry miata , i can't
<runs away>
Agatha... <laughs> she's actually running away
in path 1. Clarice's statement makes sense in that she just can't fight Agatha #2 and hope to win, and Agatha's courageaous statement is not invalidated as it implies that Miata's will to fight even with regards to Clarice is courageaous/valiant.
in path 2. Clarice's statement makes sense in that she won't run away and abandon Miata, and Agatha's laughter is just because Clarice says one thing whilst doing the complete opposite, and actually legging it.
astrallionheart
2008-12-17, 13:49
There were never much doubt on Teresa's position as the strongest warrior ever. The BS is not about Priscilla surpassing Teresa or Alicia being the strongest but rather about putting Teresa ten millions miles above everyone else.
All I know is Teresa owned a maxed-out Priscilla while using 10% of her yoma power and looking quite bored in the process.
Imagine if Teresa's heart had never been compromised by weakness. She wouldn't have given pause to crushing Prissy instead of standing around defenseless without her sword thinking she could help Priscilla like she had helped Clare.
Almost as fast as the fastest Claymore, almost as strong as the strongest, her sword fighting close to Quicksword level, enough stamina to not even pull a sweat even though a team of #2-5 were already exhausted trying to fight her...as close to a perfect warrior as you can get.
blurredvision
2008-12-17, 15:21
Well it's just a theory but as I said, all the Claymores that hid their Yoki in Claymore proved to have a huge stack of it after that.
They had very strong yoki and thus enrolled as single digits from the start.
Would you give just one example rather than Clare who get Teresa's flesh to prove your theory cause I'm totally lost how you deduce this conclusion.
Yes, their priority is control, and then biological strength. However, as the Claymores are experiments, they won't train them past the phase where they measure their potential. If they even found a Claymore who could control her AB instincts and was strong, then they would train her to be stronger, they don't need to waste efforts on ultimately uncontrollable people they will have to kill.
Why? It's not a Claymore fact that training yields infinite returns. As far as the Claymore world knows, training Claymores makes them stronger, but not overly so, and then they awaken and lay waste to your army and land. As long as they cannot control the ABification process, training their recruits, even if it made them AB level strong, is a waste of resource -the Claymore will awaken and get loose-
a)Let's assume that one yoki pool increase if she not use it (a reverse kind of logic yet let's assume this is the case, normally it should increase when you use it) and even no 40 could increase up to a single digit by training. And plus your theory which lost me in speech that ghost is similar to the two main experiments of the organization; Teresa,Priscilla type stand alone warriors or Raphaella/Luciella & Alicia/Beth type soul links all who has unmatchable yoki levels. (None of them start with low yoki level)
b) Then organization could train them to get them as strong as Teresa which is stronger than any AB in human form. Even this power level is related to not use yoki for a while and hard training any kid would be a potential thus obedient ones would be welcomed while the rest is being ignored. If the ghosts and the major claymores are in the same league due to training, and these major ones can solo ABs, then instead of controllable ABs they could get controllable claymores who are more strong. Easy to produce very strong warriors who can solo ABs would take AOs and just a larger portion would take DoDs (just like your logic less strong AOs could take DoD like claymores hunt ABs)
Moreover if it's up to training then after training they would have claymores whose power leves are close to each other w/o major gaps, then it would be very easy to annihilate the awakened ones.
The reason this is not the case the organization is in search for AO level controllabe claymores, thus their main focus was always to create the strongest ones. The reason why new experiments enroll from single digits such as no.2, is that the power/taining correlatation isn't stong.
Instead they based on the idea that in order to survive, claymores will also train and learn, and who simply can't do that will die and be replaced( nature and evolution rules) so the organization doesn't train them after they enroll. What they are seeking is controllable very strong claymores not ordinary ones. (Even Riful doesn't recruit the weak ones)
Of course I'm not underestimating training yet I disagree that you can increase your potential, potential is not a limit that you can increase, one can increase his/her level to get closer to his/her potential. And in this manga it's related with Yoki level.
Which came first, the egg, or the chicken?
I had answered in my previous post and in this post above. There is no such a case to begin with. You took just one sentence and ignored the rest.
That Clare doesn't have much Yoki to start with could very well show that first you have to suppress and then you will have immense Yoki levels.
How can Clare has little yoki? She took Teresa's flesh and even 1/2 portion of yoma in Teresa would make Clare's yoki level one of the strongest.
Only a reader knowing Shounen tropes knows that training (for the main characters, at least the chosen ones) will indeed bring the mains characters at the ever growing fighting level of their opponents. There is only to look at Raki to notice the power creep inherent to the genre, training made him as strong as a Claymore, and though I wish he would have been hybridized (oh, how I wish that), I very much doubt he is anything but 100% pure human.
But Rene said that killing a yoma isn't an extraordinary for a human, what is extraordinary is realizing who is the yoma. Thus we can't deduce that he is match for claymore after killing a yoma.
7 years of training sessions from a sword-saint would increase your abilities, and considering Raki has no experience before, this would increase his level. (According to Isley he had potential, I don't think he would bother with tutoring Raki otherwise, yet it won't him as strong as a claymore who has special techniques due to yoki)
The problem isn't obedience but control of dormant powers. The org doesn't care about Claymore levels of strength, they more or less suck, as Yoma-slaying Raki shows, a human can get to that level. What they want is AB/AO level strength, but controlled. If they manage to produce that at will, obedience won't matter because an army of AO can take care of a few AO renegades.
Answered at above.
I was talking about Yuma, she beat up a #14 and her two cronies while being surprised that the Claymore's sword would seem to move at such slow speed it appeared frozen.
I knew, yet I given Miria case to counter it. I would kindly request from you to read more carefully.
Next chapter will answer that, but in my mind if they can escape from Riful, that means they can escape from Isley, them having roughly the same amount of power and all... Though before that Deneve has to show her special move, the ultra regen.
I might be wrong yet Riful focus her anger and attacks on Clare and ignored the rest. I admit that Clare and Miria have techniques and speed to escape from her but I would doubt from the other two. (I will not write down the techniques as they are all well-known, and Helen & Deneve have non of them or even subsidiaries for them)
I don't know. Yoki is a part of the equation I suppose, but the ghost don't use Yoki, and Yuma, although having the Yoki of a #40 during Pieta is now able to annihilate high ranked Claymores, while Galatea hasn't trained at all during the seven years, and blinded herself on top of that.
I think you are overestimating Galatea and Miata here, though it is meaningless as Galatea and the ghosts will never fight each others.
After Rabona, to put things into perspective, I consider Galatea is the wise old man with his fighting days behind him but still full of insight, though no longer a mover and shaker in the story. Miata is the young emotionally damaged genius with no experience put in the care of the old man. The ghost are the elite figthing team that gets the job done, and among them is the perfect commander Miria, strong, cool and composed, and the wild soldier Clare, as strong but lacking control. Yuma is the one lagging behind and lacking confidence but showing he's still better than most and a worthy addition to the team. All familiar archetypes, and from that it makes Yuma being more or less powerful than Galatea somewhat moot, though not unexpected, as there isn't really a reason to compare them, and so Yuma defeating stronger and stronger guys could be no problem.
Yet I would believe they they will build two teams and Galatea would be the leader of one of the teams;).
Being blind would increased her yoki sensing and thus probably manipulation
considering she could sensed claymores who had used pills.
And I don't aggree that Yuma is even closer to Miata or Galatea. Even a training could do that please read the scenarios above. I don't believe two Yumas would have %50 chance against Agatha. Most of the damage did by Clare and Miria, and I am unaware where you get this opinion. (It's like saying all of Napoli players are very good, yet the fact was Maradona was very good, after he left I don't remeber they achieved anything.)
SagaraSouske
2008-12-17, 15:25
All I know is Teresa owned a maxed-out Priscilla while using 10% of her yoma power and looking quite bored in the process.
Imagine if Teresa's heart had never been compromised by weakness. She wouldn't have given pause to crushing Prissy instead of standing around defenseless without her sword thinking she could help Priscilla like she had helped Clare.
Almost as fast as the fastest Claymore, almost as strong as the strongest, her sword fighting close to Quicksword level, enough stamina to not even pull a sweat even though a team of #2-5 were already exhausted trying to fight her...as close to a perfect warrior as you can get.
This argument has been made repeatedly in past threads. If you could please read through some of them you would have a better understanding of both sides of the argument.
They had very strong yoki and thus enrolled as single digits from the start.
Would you give just one example rather than Clare who get Teresa's flesh to prove your theory cause I'm totally lost how you deduce this conclusion.Teresa. The org doesn't know the extent of her power in the Extra Story.
And really, what proof do you have that the Zemu twins, Luciella/Raphaella or Priscilla had strong Yoki from the start and were not taken as is and taught suppression, which put their Yoki level among the best? Certainly you can admit it is extraordinary that the org would manage to create Alicia from scratch, with no uncertainties and make her the strongest... just when the org unexpectedly loses the other sisters they had been grooming like that, and Louvres freely admit they have been taught nothing but fighting and suppression.
a)Let's assume that one yoki pool increase if she not use it (a reverse kind of logic yet let's assume this is the case, normally it should increase when you use it)Normally? What's "normal"? Do you know how a river dam works?
b) Then organization could train them to get them as strong as Teresa which is stronger than any AB in human form.Which they do with Alicia. Which they had with Ophelia, with Galatea, with Miata, with Teresa. Yet, they won't hesitate to kill those girls
They don't want Claymores at AB level, they want control of all the potential in the Claymores. Stopping at AB level is stupid, they have plenty of girls that can handle ABs, but since the experiment lasted for one hundred years now, my guess is that it's not what they want.
Moreover, Yagi makes a big fuss at the start on how Claymores are defective products and WILL awaken if stressed enough. The org want to get rid of that uncontrollable awakening, and so far they found Alicia, because the half-awakening phenomenon (Clare, Miria, Helen and Deneve) was hidden from them.
Moreover if it's up to training then after training they would have claymores whose power leves are close to each other w/o major gaps, then it would be very easy to annihilate the awakened ones. Very easy? I doubt it. The claymore world doesn't work like that, else Isley would have won against the two other AO with his horde of AB.
Not counting that with this tactic, either you manage to trap the AO so he doesn't escape, or you prepare for a war of attrition where with each battle your opponent's force grow stronger as your wounded Claymores awaken.
Not that the AO are their targets, building a reliable army to fight the DOD is.
The reason this is not the case the organization is in search for AO level controllabe claymores, thus their main focus was always to create the strongest ones. The reason why new experiments enroll from single digits such as no.2, is that the power/taining correlatation isn't stong. No, it's that they don't train the Claymores, and only look for strong natural talent. Clare's academy days in the Extra Story cannot be called training.
How can Clare has little yoki? She took Teresa's flesh and even 1/2 portion of yoma in Teresa would make Clare's yoki level one of the strongest. Well, it's a fact that Clare's Yoki isn't strong so I don't know what to say to you.
I knew, yet I given Miria case to counter it. I would kindly request from you to read more carefully.Reading carefully or not, I'm afraid sometimes I am left to guess what you meant.
Yet I would believe they they will build two teams and Galatea would be the leader of one of the teams;). Wishful thinking, when Galatea has said her fighting days were behind her, she was welcomed back as a nun, her powers are made redundant by some ghost members and the person she transferred the burden of leadership upon is staying in the same town as her, making the decisions.
Most of the damage did by Clare and Miria,What? :twitch:
We are obviously not reading the same manga, so I'll stop arguing with you.
ah another mistranslation, cheers for the correction i can't read japanese or chinese so i have to rely on translations, but still, why would Clarice then say "i'm sorry i can't" whilst actually legging it, *if* she's being asked to run away anyway. And Miata was pinned at the time, meaning she can't do much 'holding off', it's like saying i got everything under control whilst on fire and being eaten by an asbestos tiger.
Here's the problem:
The Japanese can combine verbs to make new verbs. E.g. "to drink" + "to swim" combine to make the single verb "to swim and drink". Normally most japanese verbs are written so as to start with a chinese character to make it easier to read. This did not happen in this case and it was spelt out in the plain japanese pheonetic alphabet (sometimes this is even done intentionally [e.g. when Riful said "I found something interesting" she used a phonetic 'mono'(thing) instead of the chinese character to deliberately obfuscate whether it was a person or a thing (and ended up being a little of both :p)]).
In 3 separate bubbles, Miata says:
MAMA...
nigete....
shinanaide MAMA...
nigete - is the -te form of nigeru - to run away/flee.
MAMA in this case is just 'mommy'.
the -te form can be used by itself, or as the way to connect verbs.
shinanaide is the negative -te form of verb shinu - to die. I.e. shinanade = don't die. Normally though, the shi is written 死 instead of simply the phonetic し.
The verb suru however, means 'to do' and can be appended to a lot of verbs. The negative -te form of suru is shinaide (a 1 character difference). It is also usually written with just the plain phonetic alphabet. The compound verb "nigete shinaide" = "don't run away" is very common - especially in anime/manga.
By not using the chinese character for shinanaide, Yagi made it very easy to misread it as shinaide as the eye combines the 2nd and 3rd bubbles together into one compound verb (wrongly).
Adding to the confusion is Miata's and Agatha's reactions on the next page. Miata looks sad and surprised that Clarice actually ran away.
It leaves the astute translator wondering - 3 distinct bubbles or are the last 2 meant to be joined? Is shinanaide just a typo?
If read literally though, it's "mommy... run away... don't die mommy". It leave one a little confused about the next page though...
Thanks for Your thorough explanation Cyclone :). Maybe there really was a typo in the magazine like 10sigh suggested? Probably we would have to ask Yagi himself to finally clear things up.
Thanks for Your thorough explanation Cyclone :). Maybe there really was a typo in the magazine like 10sigh suggested? Probably we would have to ask Yagi himself to finally clear things up.
glad to help.
I'm personally for the literal reading though too: "run away. don't die." I have not seen many typos in manga, so I'm not going to ascribe it to that.
I really think Deneve was deserving that slash since the day she kicked Clare, blaming her for not being able to protect Jean when she did even worst with Undine, at least Clare moved around while Deneve just was stick watching Undine die :p
Sleepy Speculator
2008-12-18, 09:54
Thanks again for the clarification, even if it was still over my head (i'm not very good at languages), do you think it was an intentional thing then? would yagi clarify either way if he could be asked/?
irvinethearcher
2008-12-18, 12:51
As for their second duel, Clare was testing Miria at first. She gradually quickened her pace and it was Miria that decided to stop (in my personal opinion it was because she was afraid Clare might become too serious). Also Clare was at disadvantage from the start, they were fighting in the open where Miria could use her abilities to the fullest and at the same time Clare would have most trouble. If it was in confined space the fight would be one-sided. Not to mention even the ground in this snowy and icy area was conveniently rough so that Miria could make moves such as „_]” and instantly go behind Clare without falling to the ground because of overpowering force of static friction.
Clare is my alltime favourite character, i like her even more than guts from berserk therefore i am "a bit" biased ;)
IMO it is difficult to see from the sparring fight who is the strongest of the two. Clare likes to improvise as we (not only) know from the chapter 85.
->"We'll talk about that, when it happens..."
That's an important difference between them because miria likes to plan things in a strategic way.
IMO in a real battle of life and death clare would win because of theresa's power and her talent to improvise. You're probably right that miria had an advantage because they fought on open ground but that is where the most battles in claymore are.
I think that clare would have lost the sparring fight instead of going all out against a friend like miria but in real battle...
What i wonder about is that no one from the seven asked how clare awakening only legs and arms could defeated a number 2 like rigardo that easy and how she managed to become that strong despite being number 47 at the begining. IMO they must simply feel that clare is different from other claymores.
The only one who suspected something was miria seeing clare as the strongest standing before her.
Moreover, Yagi makes a big fuss at the start on how Claymores are defective products and WILL awaken if stressed enough. The org want to get rid of that uncontrollable awakening, and so far they found Alicia, because the half-awakening phenomenon (Clare, Miria, Helen and Deneve) was hidden from them.
This seems to indicate that the soul link perhaps not has the strenghening effects as the half awakening state? At first i thought that soul link awakening and half awakening are nearly the same things but now i more and more doubt that. It is something i asked me all the time. Did the quality of alicia's yoki change because of her awakenings like it did with the fab 4?
Now this is where it gets convuluted, Clare *had* a weak yoki signature but access to another pool of yoki which is evident when she overused her yoki, either by half awakening or by overusing too much in general. This is Clare's 'potential' which she has inherited.
Sounds like theresa of the faint fox but okay, why not. I don't have a better explaination.
Sleepy Speculator
2008-12-18, 13:44
It's not that overuse of youki is something other claymores can't do only that it results in awakening, they've all got more youki, but it's over their limit. The only thing which i'll tenuously add to that is that Clare's limit may have shifted closer to her potential 'after' she used alot of the stuff to fight Rigardo, which is why i say *had* a weak yoki signature.
The statement she is the youngest implies to me that she was nowhere near practiced at using yoki, and therefore nowhere near her potential. Rubul has implied that if she'd been hybridised normally she would have been a hero of her generation.
irvinethearcher
2008-12-18, 14:41
As far as i remember rubel said that if she was hybridized normally she would have become an normal soldier. This indicates that the mibs don't know in advance who will become strong and who will become weak. It seems like gambling.
rubel:
What's wrong? Havin regrets?
If we have used a normal yoma you could have become an ordinary soldier.
Sleepy Speculator
2008-12-18, 18:50
yep, well i need some sleep making mistakes from being up too long, i won't edit my posts i'll leave them to stand corrected... getting the itch for the next chapter now, way too early for it too.
Negativedark
2008-12-18, 19:25
I really think Deneve was deserving that slash since the day she kicked Clare, blaming her for not being able to protect Jean when she did even worst with Undine, at least Clare moved around while Deneve just was stick watching Undine die :p
Nah. Deneve did that so that Claire would stop moping and crying, and waiting for some AB to take advatage of her state and kill her. Deneve did that so Claire would get back up, and get rid of any suicidal tendencies she might have had. And Claire also had Flora's death to feel guilty about as well.
Thanks again for the clarification, even if it was still over my head (i'm not very good at languages), do you think it was an intentional thing then? would yagi clarify either way if he could be asked/?
Japanese is not my first language (or second for that matter), so I can only say what I have learned in books/manga/classes. This kind of thing though is a nuance that I don't have though, but I do have a couple of theories. I think Yagi did it for stylistic reasons.
The japanese phonetic alphabet - known as hiragana - is simple and the first thing that japanese 1st graders learn (not much more difficult than the ABCs). The chinese characters - known as kanji - are much harder and take much longer to learn. The use of the simpler script could be to reflect Miata's personality. The use of different script choices for different characters is not unheard of from manga authors - in Naruto, for example, the plant like akatsuki member speaks only in hiragana making it next to impossible to read (due to the fact that japanese doesn't use spaces, and using kanji is a nice way to figure out word boundries). Unfortunately, Miata does not have too many lines, but in the lines she did have, she used kanji freely (not unusually often, but freely). So it leads me to think that:
Hiragana is also a syllable based alphabet. Each syllable, for the most part, is one letter. Each letter is one syllable. For example, in an anime, when a character says "It's a secret" they actually say just one word himitsu (pronounced he-me-tsu) meaning 'secret' (think Xellos from Slayers). In hiragana it's spelt ひみつ with 3 characters. In kanji it's spelt 秘密 with only 2 kanji characters. For a character speaking slowly or over enounciating, it makes sense that the manga author would choose to use hiragana over kanji to simulate speach patterns. That said, if Miata is injured and speaking with difficulty, it's possible Yagi choose hiragana for simulate speaking with effort or irregularity.
Ultimately Miata said what she said and I do not think it was accidental. My long winded pontification on the subject was more an attempt to say it was an easy mistake to make and why (and why some slight ambiguity could remain) - not to claim Miata said anything else.
Fenrir_valindri
2008-12-19, 16:18
I generally interpret it that Miata was telling Clarice to run away, considering Clarice was already running and Miata threw her sword to save her life.
Miata really didn't seem sad/upset that Clarice ran, and Agatha's comment about Miata be valiant also indicates that Miata was doing something self-less (such as telling Clarice to run) instead of asking for help (like asking Clarice not to run).
But since the translation itself is so confusing, I can see how people are unsure about it. When I first ready the original translation (Don't Run Away) it immediately felt wrong to me in context of things, which is why I even pointed it out to 10sigh and asked about it. (which generated a discussion that led to 10sigh making the "correction" page)
Sleepy Speculator
2008-12-19, 17:30
Well she looked kinda upset to me... which is what makes me wonder about the ambiguity of it...
If i ignored the text then just went on the way i perceive body language then Miata's outstretched hand looks like a request to wait, like a police man signalling to a driver to stop, or someone reaching to someone else, *a gesture to run away however* makes less sense, when the person is already running away, as they have to stop to acknowledge the gesture, nevertheless the ambiguity in expressions carries on as Miata is crying regardless of either sacrificing herself for her moma or asking her mama to stay. Similarly Clarice's shock either way is ambiguous, along with her gritted teeth, as it's a reaction to a difficult situation ie. Agatha's presence not Miata's request. Miata's post Clarice running face looks damned sad to me along with her crying "mama"
Feel free to pile in and criticise, as i suspect people will anyway.
*edited*
And as i'll freely admit most of it's ambiguous.
chibamonster
2008-12-19, 20:05
When I read the raw Miata really seemed to be telling Clarice to run. I never saw anything that indicated she was telling Clarice to stay. I haven't checked on it since the raw came out though so I might be mistaken.
Fenrir_valindri
2008-12-19, 22:30
I thought Miata's sad expression was more of the fact she resigned herself to not seeing her "Mama" again, since she was planning on sacrificing herself to save Clarice.
That is how I see it anyway.
Hmm... I like how Isley just detected the two so easily. He probably detected them when the short haired one was angry and flexing though.
I kinda want the "demon" to be Isley/Priscilla's berserk child somehow. I remember reading somewhere about them unable to reproduce, but there can always be exceptions to the rule.
irvinethearcher
2008-12-20, 14:46
I wonder what will happen to miata if clarice dies?
IMO yagi did a great job in showing that miata was not only a crazy nipple licking killing machine but truly cared for clarice
and that clarice was able to help her out in the end and pay her back for all the times she saved her but.
Helen's Apple
2008-12-20, 15:38
A few things to throw out! 60-hour workweeks at Amazon.com have kept me from posting, but it's my day off.
First, I wanted to comment on the talk of relative power-level of the ghosts. I'm not sure where it's become common acceptance that Clare is nearly on Miria's level of strength. Helen and Deneve had a clear discussion of Clare's inferiority, in speed, strength, stamina, swordsmanship, even tactics and mental ability. All Clare has is her limitless drive. Don't misunderstand, though. I rather enjoy and cherish Clare's character, but she'll have to swipe a few more body parts before she's up to Miria's level.
Secondly, she's also inferior in terms of Yoki. She's one-fourth, not one-half, and has never had the Yoki-strength of her comrades. That's in amount, bear in mind, not in quality, and if you recall the Slashers arc, that's an important distinction to make:
http://www.onemanga.com/Claymore/30/09/
Clare has become stronger due to the (personal, biased theory following!) continued refining of her Yoki through release and limit-surpassing. Clare's Yoki is tiny, even Galatea mentioned that in the same arc. Smaller than Miria's, Deneve's, even Helen's, but there's nothing to say that it cannot be stronger because the quality of it has changed. To draw a comparison, it's like drinking Everclear as opposed to, say, vodka. Sure, they're both alcohol, but one is certainly more potent than another.
I do think that all of the Ghosts are actually being underestimated at this point, however. Deneve isn't going to die from such a trifling flesh wound. She's Deneve, and regeneration is her specialty. And Helen cannot die, with her patented Go-go-Gadget limbs and stol-I mean, patented Drillsword, and besides -- I'm in her pocket, so that's simply not possible. Tabitha is as adept as God-Eye Galatea as a sensor now. Cynthia can assist any of the Ghosts in regeneration, and can be a pull-back for anyone that surpasses their limits. We don't even have to remind ourselves, as has been mentioned before, that Yuma has the patented YumaPunch™.
Miria is plotting worldwide domination.
Anyway, back on track to the serious point, Clare still needs "much more training" to quote Miria.
But, I have to agree with tenken627 -- the Fab Four are in mortal danger for the first time since the power-up, and that shows that the story is going to advance. I think that things may be further along than we believe at this point; I'm starting to question whether we have 60 more chapters or 20, because it's fairly clear that an acceleration in pacing is occurring.
Sleepy Speculator
2008-12-20, 17:12
With regards to Clare's yoki, there is the rather problematic statement regarding what the hell Priscilla meant when she spoke of lights in Pieta, which she and Isley could tell were being extinguished, the six left standing were shown to be...
Miria, Clare, Cynthia, Helen, Deneve and #24 Zelda? from Undine's team
If it's assumed that Miria being #6 is the most powerful then one of the other five are of comparable strength at the time. And it's assumed that Priscilla and Isley are referring to yoki signatures as it's the defacto classic measurement of strength of claymores and Ab's, so by deduction it can be assumed one of the other five shown standing had an outstanding amount of yoki, the common theory i think, being that it was Clare due to having just come back from another near awakening, (youki being more prominent in warriors who have just used it, at least if what Raphealla said to Irene is true) of course it could have been any of them, but dropping the hint that Clare was head and shoulders above the rest is reinforced somewhat circumstantially when Miata later points out that 2 of the ghosts smell of power, and also by the duel in which Miria ceded leadership to Clare, despite both of them having their yoki supressed, and as a result non measurable.
Of course over the next seven years the ghosts suppressed their youki, and had amongst their number three talented yoki sensor types to assist in ensuring that they did it right, but if Priscilla and Isley noticed it 'before' that final climatic battle then i think the rest of the ghosts would know it's there as well, especially since 4 of them apart from Clare were present, of course this is only circumstantial but again is hinted at by the conversation about Clare fighting Miria that was between Helen and Deneve, as it's not about who can win, and that Clare is just a technique fighter relying on skill, but a question as to who really is the 'strongest' in every sense, given that they can't use yoki sensing to read the relative strengths, which would normally indicate a hierarchy.
A few things to throw out! 60-hour workweeks at Amazon.com have kept me from posting, but it's my day off.
First, I wanted to comment on the talk of relative power-level of the ghosts. I'm not sure where it's become common acceptance that Clare is nearly on Miria's level of strength. Helen and Deneve had a clear discussion of Clare's inferiority, in speed, strength, stamina, swordsmanship, even tactics and mental ability. All Clare has is her limitless drive. Don't misunderstand, though. I rather enjoy and cherish Clare's character, but she'll have to swipe a few more body parts before she's up to Miria's level.
Secondly, she's also inferior in terms of Yoki. She's one-fourth, not one-half, and has never had the Yoki-strength of her comrades. That's in amount, bear in mind, not in quality, and if you recall the Slashers arc, that's an important distinction to make:
http://www.onemanga.com/Claymore/30/09/
Clare has become stronger due to the (personal, biased theory following!) continued refining of her Yoki through release and limit-surpassing. Clare's Yoki is tiny, even Galatea mentioned that in the same arc. Smaller than Miria's, Deneve's, even Helen's, but there's nothing to say that it cannot be stronger because the quality of it has changed. To draw a comparison, it's like drinking Everclear as opposed to, say, vodka. Sure, they're both alcohol, but one is certainly more potent than another.
I do think that all of the Ghosts are actually being underestimated at this point, however. Deneve isn't going to die from such a trifling flesh wound. She's Deneve, and regeneration is her specialty. And Helen cannot die, with her patented Go-go-Gadget limbs and stol-I mean, patented Drillsword, and besides -- I'm in her pocket, so that's simply not possible. Tabitha is as adept as God-Eye Galatea as a sensor now. Cynthia can assist any of the Ghosts in regeneration, and can be a pull-back for anyone that surpasses their limits. We don't even have to remind ourselves, as has been mentioned before, that Yuma has the patented YumaPunch™.
Miria is plotting worldwide domination.
Anyway, back on track to the serious point, Clare still needs "much more training" to quote Miria.
But, I have to agree with tenken627 -- the Fab Four are in mortal danger for the first time since the power-up, and that shows that the story is going to advance. I think that things may be further along than we believe at this point; I'm starting to question whether we have 60 more chapters or 20, because it's fairly clear that an acceleration in pacing is occurring.
i dont quit agree with ur relative power lvl of the ghost. using clare 1/4 yoma agianst her is a stupid point imo. if u really look at it from a different point of view, a claymore (1/2 yoma) can WTF pwned almost any yoma. they alone can solo as much as dozens of yoma at once. higher rank claymore (1/2 yoma) can probably solo hundred of yomas(100% yoma). by ur way of looking into the power lvl, sicne clare is 1/4 yoma, she at 1/2 the power lvl of the other claymore. well, then using ur way of looking at thing, since a yoma is pure 100% yoma, then shouldn't they be allmight godly compare to the claymore. claymore is barely half of a yoma yet claymore is far far stronger then any yoma introduce so far. so dotn use the 1/4 bs to make her weak.
takign from a different perspective, u can look at the Sayin from DBZ. usign vegeta asn goku as pure sayin and compare their power lvl to gohan/trunk/goten (1/2 sayin) and pan (1/4 sayin). pan develop her power far faster then any of the sayin and at such a young age, she have the higest power lvl compare to th rest of the sayin at that age. gohan/goken/trunk beign 1/2 saying develop their power far faster and achieve Super Sayin at a much younger age then their father who is pure. the can also increase their power lvl far faster too. goku and vegeta beign pure have the hardest time increasing their power lvl. they have to train for ages just to achieve when teh 1/2 and 1/4 sayin achieve in a hours worth of workout. vegeta train his whole life go tot he brink fo death to ahieve super sayin while goken and trunk achieve it naturally as a child. it take trunk and goten more time and effort to leaned how to walk then to become super sayin.
i may just be wishing too much here but liek how they say in DBZ like father like son, i would rephrase it here and say "like mother, liek daughter", teresa give birth to the claymore know as clare and as her claymore daughter, clare will inherent all her mother power ans skill and we already start seeing it already. too many seeign clare as a 1/4 yoma. as a 1/4 yoma, they see clare as having less yoki therfore weaker then the rest. i see clare differently. i see clare as a 3/4 human. beign 3/4 human meaning she have more humanity left in her which in time will allow her to push ur limit farther and allow her to unleash far more yoma power then any1 in the past.
A few things to throw out! 60-hour workweeks at Amazon.com have kept me from posting, but it's my day off.
First, I wanted to comment on the talk of relative power-level of the ghosts. I'm not sure where it's become common acceptance that Clare is nearly on Miria's level of strength. Helen and Deneve had a clear discussion of Clare's inferiority, in speed, strength, stamina, swordsmanship, even tactics and mental ability. All Clare has is her limitless drive. Don't misunderstand, though. I rather enjoy and cherish Clare's character, but she'll have to swipe a few more body parts before she's up to Miria's level.
Secondly, she's also inferior in terms of Yoki. She's one-fourth, not one-half, and has never had the Yoki-strength of her comrades. That's in amount, bear in mind, not in quality, and if you recall the Slashers arc, that's an important distinction to make:
http://www.onemanga.com/Claymore/30/09/
Clare has become stronger due to the (personal, biased theory following!) continued refining of her Yoki through release and limit-surpassing. Clare's Yoki is tiny, even Galatea mentioned that in the same arc. Smaller than Miria's, Deneve's, even Helen's, but there's nothing to say that it cannot be stronger because the quality of it has changed. To draw a comparison, it's like drinking Everclear as opposed to, say, vodka. Sure, they're both alcohol, but one is certainly more potent than another.
I do think that all of the Ghosts are actually being underestimated at this point, however. Deneve isn't going to die from such a trifling flesh wound. She's Deneve, and regeneration is her specialty. And Helen cannot die, with her patented Go-go-Gadget limbs and stol-I mean, patented Drillsword, and besides -- I'm in her pocket, so that's simply not possible. Tabitha is as adept as God-Eye Galatea as a sensor now. Cynthia can assist any of the Ghosts in regeneration, and can be a pull-back for anyone that surpasses their limits. We don't even have to remind ourselves, as has been mentioned before, that Yuma has the patented YumaPunch™.
Miria is plotting worldwide domination.
Anyway, back on track to the serious point, Clare still needs "much more training" to quote Miria.
But, I have to agree with tenken627 -- the Fab Four are in mortal danger for the first time since the power-up, and that shows that the story is going to advance. I think that things may be further along than we believe at this point; I'm starting to question whether we have 60 more chapters or 20, because it's fairly clear that an acceleration in pacing is occurring.
It seems to me like you're purposefully choosing to ignore Miata's comments a while back, and Helen & Deneve's conversation in the last chapter. In chapter 78 Miata comments there are two who stand out from the 7 ghosts. In 85, Deneve and Helen are talking about who is stronger between Miria and Clare. Thus this indicates (to me anyways):
1) Clare and Miria are the strongest of the 7 ghosts, and
2) Their power levels are comparable.
Some people (Sleep Speculator IIRC) also argue convincingly that Clare was winning that little duel with Miria before Miria called it off.
Fenrir_valindri
2008-12-20, 19:36
I generally agree with the assessment that Miria and Clare's power levels are comparable, and I also agree with Helen/Deneve's assessment of their respective strengths. (Where Miria is superior in most aspects, but Clare's unpredictable power fluctuations give her an edge nobody else has)
I do however, disagree with Sleepy's belief that Clare won that duel, as the duel was hardly a match with the intent to kill from either of the warriors and the fight itself did not lead me to believe Clare had any advantage over Miria.
Clare's surprise when Miria decided to stop the duel also indicates Clare herself believed the fight still had a long way to go before deciding a victor.
---------
The part Sleepy likes to point out as Clare's advantage (the last attack Clare made in the fight) seems more defensive then offensive, since Clare was backing away while warding off Miria's Phantoms, which indicates Clare was being pressed, despite the speed of her Windcutter. (Miria was forced stop her push, and Clare was jumping back to give herself some breathing room as made clear by the next panel)
If the victor had been decided the Ghost's would have made comment over it, or Miria herself would have conceded defeat. If Clare had clearly won the fight, Deneve and Helen wouldn't even be having that conversation in the last chapter.
--------
I'd also like to point out that Miria didn't concede leadership to Clare, she simply resigned from her position as the leader of the Ghosts so she could leave with Clare; but then the Ghost's refused her resignation and decided to go with them anyway. :D
--------
I have no doubt that Clare will eventually surpass Miria's strength, but I honestly don't think it has happened yet.
Of course, everyone has their own way of interpreting the results of the duel.
First, I wanted to comment on the talk of relative power-level of the ghosts. I'm not sure where it's become common acceptance that Clare is nearly on Miria's level of strength. Helen and Deneve had a clear discussion of Clare's inferiority, in speed, strength, stamina, swordsmanship, even tactics and mental ability.
Tactic? Lulz wut? The latest fight between those two indicated the otherwise.
Really need to get a hold of their power levels.:eyebrow:
Really need to get a hold of their power levels.:eyebrow:
IT'S OVER 9000!
(C'mon - someone had to say it...)
Torri_fay_torren@hot
2008-12-21, 01:38
My perspective on Clarice is this,
Her power comes in her control of Miata, the fact that she keeps miata sane. Well that's so obvious that you all are probubly like duh, but listen. It goes back to the first chapter of Claymore. The relationships of Claymore are one of the most important aspects of the manga. The most powerful people in this manga are Raki, Clarice and Clare in a way. The "power" to bring out the human in those around them. Bieng human is the greatest happyness as Teresa put it. There all a bunch of walking morality pets. Clarice doesn't need anything more then this. Clare is a unique case in that she is effecting everyone around her. This is the real power in shonen.
My perspective on Clarice is this,
Her power comes in her control of Miata, the fact that she keeps miata sane. Well that's so obvious that you all are probubly like duh, but listen. It goes back to the first chapter of Claymore. The relationships of Claymore are one of the most important aspects of the manga. The most powerful people in this manga are Raki, Clarice and Clare in a way. The "power" to bring out the human in those around them. Bieng human is the greatest happyness as Teresa put it. There all a bunch of walking morality pets. Clarice doesn't need anything more then this. Clare is a unique case in that she is effecting everyone around her. This is the real power in shonen.
gag me. If that ends up summing up Claymore, I'll take back all the nice things things I said about Yagi. There better be a lot more to it than that (and I think there will)...
--
edit:
I suppose I should ellaborate. It's not that I don't like the message of valuing humanity - I do. It's the way most shonen manga go about it that bothers me. Clarice being, in essense, Miata's brain, sends the message: "make the right decisions and someone else will do all the hard work and make things work out in the end". That's not a philosophy to live by. It's lazyness and a lie. It preaches incompetance, mediocrity and collectivism, instead of achievement, ambition and self-reliance.
Attempting to write a story with such a screwed up values systems is a recipe for dissaster. Or do you think it's reasonable for main characters to achieve what no one else could achieve without getting their hands dirty? I want to read stories about interesting people doing interesting things - not pawning those things off on others and taking the credit.
Sleepy Speculator
2008-12-21, 03:59
I stand by my opinion that there is something terribly wrong with Clarice, we haven't even seen her use any yoki at all, which may be because she' a failure or because she's really *green*. But either way i'll just quickly point out the Clare Miria duel points...
Clare's an Offensive warrior, not a defensive one as much as we sometimes forget or hypothesise otherwise, her strength really comes from looking a foe in the face and disregarding her own life, similarly Miria's Offensive, when she attacks it's not a half hearted thing, she went at it straight off the bat, 'full power' as it were, well at least whilst not using yoki, this should be in your mind when you think about what constitutes an attack by Clare.
back up quotes.
Miria - "come at me with your full power"
Helen - "a mirage, she's serious"
(it don't look to me like Miria is starting low and ramping the fight up, she's going for it right from the start, at least with whats available without yoki)
Clare defended against this and was hard pressed, which against Miria's speed is fair enough, but she lacks the advantage of yoki sensing in her usual defensive fighting technique. And as someone else pointed out this fight in the open is entirely suited for Miria's mobility and speed advantage.
Clare does however manage to keep up in defence at least.
At least until being attacked on a particular weak area/blind spot point that Miria used before. The blow that knocks her to the ground, this is a bit of a cheap shot, in that it's the exact same area/attack that disarmed her back when she was trying to read Miria's yoki and was getting comments about how awful she was at fighting by Deneve and Helen. It's a low left to right slash, when Clare is in a two handed straight forward guard position. Interestingly this is the exact same attack that Priscilla used to disarm Teresa prior to her losing her head.
It's only at this point that the duel really kicks off as Clare switches to using Windcutter.
Helen - "whoa awesome neither will back down"
Despite a vast number of mirages, Miria can't breach Clare's 'defence', and the the very next panel we see Clare start to counter attack.
Okay so now we get the first panel where Clare isn't using it to defend, you can see Miria surrounded by slashes and no mirages. They both back up for some space.
I'd say Miria wanted space to breathe because her mobility is impeded by Clare's technique, and Clare wants it because she's been hemmed in by mirages much of the fight, they are both too much to handle at close quarters for each others comfort.
It's at this point that Miria backs off and pretty much says the fight is over. Basically Windcutter is a technique where Clare gained alot of precision, unlike quicksword those slashes are targeted, and the lack of mirages says Miria was boxed in, she could only jump backwards, and then assessing the chance once Clare was serious, surrender. Sure Clare thought the fight would have a conclusion, but it's probably not in Miria's interest to have her arse handed to her and lose a corresponding amount of respect. Better to concede without anyone being able to draw a conclusion.
And just to add an addendum Miria is v.smart i think she saw her chances of winning decreasing and came to a conclusion as to how the fight would end unfavourably should it continue which would have left her in a weaker position of leadership subordinate to Clare. I don't think it's any coincidence that the first act of rebellion to Miria's orders occurred once Cynthia was well clear of Miria and in the company of Clare, and the second act occurred shortly after a conversation between Helen and Deneve as to which of the two would win, with Helen being the supporter for Clare's being the stronger, which then led to her attacking the Ab after winding up Deneve and stating " i don't care about Miria's orders or yours Deneve"
And in case someone says 'ah but Miria could have used yoki' that also holds true for Clare if they didn't care about hiding her yoki either, though it would lead right into Clare's hands as she can fight by reading an opponents yoki signature to predict their movements, which in all likelyhood would have lowered Miria's ability to be on the offence against Clare as opposed to raising it.
irvinethearcher
2008-12-21, 19:14
@Helen's Apple
until now miata is our most trustworthy source of information concerning the powers of clare and miria because of her sharp 6th sense. She said they're even and far better than the other ghosts. Miata's statement would correspond to priscilla's lights.
And because priscilla is not known to have a sixth sense the lights must have been clare and miria's yoki. We can now argue that perhaps miria was more depleted of yoki than clare but this can not have been the mangaka's intention IMO.
Helen and Deneve can only judge the fighting skills not yoki of miria and clare (okay, they probably know about miria and clare's yoki right at the end of the pieta battle but the result of their measurement was probably the same as priscilla's lights) and even that judgement doesn't seem to make much sense. Clare's windcutter and aura protection are a hell of a combination therefore clare is far superior in swordsmanship to miria in general. Okay, she couldn't use her preemptive aura protection against miria in her sparing fight but still there is the windcutter. Perhaps it is somehow wrong translated?
The rest(speed,tactic...) i can accept.
Clare defended against this and was hard pressed, which against Miria's speed is fair enough, but she lacks the advantage of yoki sensing in her usual defensive fighting technique. And as someone else pointed out this fight in the open is entirely suited for Miria's mobility and speed advantage.
Clare does however manage to keep up in defence at least.
Good point. Clare should be far more effective in fighting AB's like agatha or isley(blocking arrows with windcutter) than in fighting against a ghost like miria. Perhaps miria is even the worst opponent clare could have because of her speed and stealth.
IT'S OVER 9000!
(C'mon - someone had to say it...)
Ha!. And I'm glad that it was you who said it.:)
My perspective on Clarice is this,
Her power comes in her control of Miata, the fact that she keeps miata sane. Well that's so obvious that you all are probubly like duh, but listen. It goes back to the first chapter of Claymore. The relationships of Claymore are one of the most important aspects of the manga. The most powerful people in this manga are Raki, Clarice and Clare in a way. The "power" to bring out the human in those around them. Bieng human is the greatest happyness as Teresa put it. There all a bunch of walking morality pets. Clarice doesn't need anything more then this. Clare is a unique case in that she is effecting everyone around her. This is the real power in shonen.
Hmmm!. Like the way you derived the relationship in terms of power @Torri.:)
I favor fenrir's explanation here over yours, sleepy. The fight was completely inconclusive at the time. Even Deneve confirms she doesn't know which one has the upper hand, and she'd know who would win if the victor was already decided in that fight.
I will say that in a real fight Clare would trounce Miria. I mean, if neither of them release youki, it's a fairly even fight. If Clare releases youki and Miria doesn't, Clare wins. If both of them release youki, Clare wins because of her youki reading / pre-emptive perception. In other words, if it's a real fight, Clare just needs to release her youki and Miria would lose.
u guys r analysising stuff thats not there. keep in mind that the fight between maria and clare was "not a real fight."
u can say what ever u want but nothing can compare to the real thing. maria and clare can have as many fight as they want to see whos stronger but none of that will give us any clue to who really stronger. the only way to see who is stronger is to put clare adn maria in a death match. in a death match, there is no holding back. every atk is back with an intent to kill. what that mean is it is executed to teh best ability that each fighter can.
in that dumb cat fight bewteen the two, the intent to kill is not there. every atk is held back to some extend. none of the atks r fethal atk. the wind cutter r held back as to miss critical and vital area of maria. maria r doing the same things as well. then who holdign back more, well no one know. even if maria is launching atks from mirage, she is still hold back the spd at which she atk clare with, hold back the force behind it as well including atking clare vital area from mirage to avoid 1 hit kill on clare and clare is doing the same thing.
having a no hlding back death fight is only way ot really see who truly the stronger of the two. as for whos have more yoki and faster runner or have more stamina, wider forehead, bigger bust size....any measurement that doesnt not requre the two to go all out without holding back, those can be observe as the serie continue.
chibamonster
2008-12-22, 13:40
You have a good point dunames. The criterion should be different for who wins. The competition will have to change so that their killing intent can be expressed in a different and non lethal way. We should have them do a "walk off"
da-EjCxsGsc
Clare may have been trained to smile like a prostitute and Miria might be able to phantom into a swimsuit but Galatea would win blind even as a surprise entry.
Fenrir_valindri
2008-12-22, 15:07
Clare's pre-emptive sensing doesn't necessarily mean she will win any fight involving Yoki, especially when superior speed is involved. It does give her an significant advantage that makes up for inferior (comparatively) speed.
We have seen a number of times that even Clare's Yoki-sensing is far from perfect, it can be confused (as with Ophelia and Dauf's rods) or she can simply be overwhelmed or by-passed with speed (four-arms/Rigaldo)
I'm not saying Clare doesn't have the advantage when Yoki is involved, but the results wouldn't be so clear as to say "Clare would win" if she fought Miria for real (w/ Yoki)
As I stated a while back, Miria's mobility outmatches Clare's completely.
Barring a closed environment (which involves cornering or trapping said Phantom) Miria's mobility has an extreme advantage that even Clare's wouldn't be able to capitalize on.
Most likely the fight would end in a stalemate due to Miria's (superb) mobility and Clare's pre-emptive sensing + wind-cutter/flashsword, even when Yoki is involved.
Unless Clare pushes the limit which is where her greatest strength lies. (As proven several times)
----------
I also disagree that Clare is a better swordsman then Miria, Clare is obviously quite skilled, but Miria has been a warrior for longer then Clare has and is far from being an amateur with the sword.
Which is why I'd say Miria is probably a better swordsman then Clare, at least if we are talking about actual "skill" instead of abilities like flash-sword/wind-cutter.
Regardless, this is purely how I see things, so don't quote it for truth or anything (unless you have that much faith in my opinion :heh: )
Jasperboo
2008-12-22, 15:10
Clare was restricted in the duel as well not being able to use the flash sword which was forbidden.
Sleepy Speculator
2008-12-22, 16:02
Well of course we are talking about what isn't there, that's kindof the point of speculation, otherwise it would just be a chapter review, saying x beat x, y was better than y, and z had a power over 9,000. Howeer i am trying to base the conclusions at least on what has been shown in the manga.
Miria's portrayed as a very analytical/intelligent character, therefore whenever i try to write what i perceive this character's intentions to be, i try to do so without dumbing her down, whilst at the same time often falling foul of one of the fan clubs dedicated to her or others.
Take for example the end of this fight in which Miria states that she will go south 'together' with Clare. Clare has stated an intention to go South regardless of Miria's wishes, yet the together statement implies a strong connection, especially when she says 'and together with her i will exact revenge'
The truth of the fact is that Miria 'needs' Clare, in order to fulfill such a statement yet Clare has not anywhere accepted such a statement or confirmed such an intention to destroy the org. Nowhere does Clare say 'together with Miria', it's a rather one sided partnership in that sense, and Miria is by all accounts 'following' Clare south yet does not use a word that would imply a lack of leadership or equality with regards to Clare.
Now i'm not gonna go into the whole what level of this relationship is manipulative business, but i will say Miria was prepared to leave the other ghosts behind, which led to the whole Helen and Deneve butting in and the rest saying they too wish to come. This rather heavily implies that Miria's plan requires only herself and Clare, the rest are just bonus. And yes she may also have expected them to also follow, especially given that the 'two strongest' were leaving them in the middle of nowhere.
Okay so now for the what if... and i assume Miria thought about several what if's...
what if Clare beats her conclusively in the fight... (i assume without death or serious injury)
- loss of respect
- clear indication of inferiority
- Clare continues on her quest possibly taking many of the ghosts with her, leaving Miria isolated and her ambitions for revenge in tatters as she now has to go it alone without the backup of Clare's caliber *and* she can no longer direct Clare as Clare and others could just indicate that she already lost the duel, she may also be relegated to clearly 'following' Clare in order to try and influence her.
What if Miria beats Clare conclusively? (if she can)
- Miria gains respect and has clearly displayed that she's superior *but* likely results in Clare deserting or having to be guarded/watched against desertion
- similarly whatever Miria plans is now hindered by Clare's rebellious/insurbordinate nature, after all Clare has her own plans. For sure Clare could follow for a while but she's still growing and sooner or later she'd challenge again, and sooner or later she'd win.
What if the fight escalates?
- someone blows their yoki suppression and if it's Miria the other ghosts may ask her to stay behind so as not to draw attention to them, if it's Clare she's likely to draw unwanted attention by anyone who would like to bump into her no matter how isolated she is, this would be either the org, Riful, or a third party and no doubt some Ab's as well, que the beginning of the story again, with Clare either on her own (like she cares) or with some well meaning friends constantly worrying about the beacon of trouble in their midst.
Worst case scenario, Miria pushes Clare hard enough that she goes for the limb awakening, and i don't think Miria would want to fight 'that' Clare no matter how much training she had.
@fenrir
I admire your steadfast belief in Miria, however i just can't detract from one character on behalf of another, when i say there's something wrong with Clarice i don't mean Miata 'isn't' #1 material etc.
Clare's speed has increased dramatically since her start where even yoma have mocked her for being slow, her two handed fighting speed with Irene's arm and her own quicksword trained left arm was certainly fast enough to draw comment from Ophelia before she even used her new technique. Similarly Clare's speed has been increasing to the extent where she can react and see things increasingly that were previously beyond her.
four arms? six arms for example thought he'd left 3 claymores with lethal wounds except Deneve could regenerate, Helen was lucky enough to survive a 50/50 wound, and Clare had somehow taken hits only to non vital areas (it's implied by Helen's shocked looking face that Clare let herself be hit, therefore was fast enough to avoid getting hit in vital areas at least, unlike the other two teammates)
similarly Rigardo was fast enough to down 4 strong claymores like they were asleep on their feet, and Deneve went down to a blow that Clare had even the time to warn her about. And even before she went even more beserk she was fast enough to see and avoid the nails that impaled a flagging Miria. (Miria's speed drops in a prolonged fight even as Clares just keeps increasing)
I could go on and on, but instead i'll leave this humorous note...
ch 30 pg 08
Helen "Hmmph how pompous"
ch 50 pg 26
Helen - "What's this Clare? you teamed with some stuck up bitch again?"
ch 67 pg 25
Helen - "oi oi Miria aren't you acting a little stuck up now?"
ch 85 pg 14
Helen - "i don't care about Mira's orders or your's Deneve"
It seems although Helen likes Miria she also has an interesting perspective on her...
Clare was restricted in the duel as well not being able to use the flash sword which was forbidden.
Ye :D
Irene owned!!!!
In fact, it has been showed that:
Clare's half-arsed QS > Flora's WC in term of speed, which also means strength ( kinetic energy is proportional to speed)
After 7 years of training:
Clare's WC < Flora's in in term of speed but > in term of accuracy, which makes the original technique become rather defensive.
So in short, Clare didn't use what she really had because of the kindness of her heart :)
Torri_fay_torren@hot
2008-12-22, 18:55
gag me. If that ends up summing up Claymore, I'll take back all the nice things things I said about Yagi. There better be a lot more to it than that (and I think there will)...
Of course there's more to it. It's just a theme. Like the whole Nakame thing. You can still have an advanced story line with it. But does Clarice have to have a special tech like Clare? Characters aren't just defined by there techs. Theres Raki ,who is pretty tough now but still is still a human.his worth comes from the effect that he has own two important people. That doesn't lesson the story for me.
Sleepy Speculator
2008-12-22, 19:43
No there doesn't *have* to be anything special about Clarice if you don't wanna believe there is, but she does get alot of hate, for what i think is a delibarate misunderstanding of her character. Apart from being thrown way out of her depth, she's piling up all sorts of similarities with Clare except she has a completely different personality, not suited to what's going on around her.
Helen's Apple
2008-12-22, 20:41
It is my belief that Miria was simply testing Clare's combat potential to see if she would be able to go south without worry, as stated here:
http://www.onemanga.com/Claymore/67/23/
She did it before, when she assessed her skill during the Slashers arc. Miria is quite analytical, and wouldn't want to send Clare to her death. Despite empathizing with her, she doesn't often agree with Clare's decisions, after all.
I acknowledge (grudgingly) that those two are the strongest of the ghosts; I didn't say otherwise, on that bit. I also think in time Clare will outgrow Miria, although I hope this is not the case. I simply am not convinced it's happened yet.
Another thing I was thinking on today during a (very) long day at work was the way humanity is being touted in Claymore. As has been said by Torri, humanity is usually the driving power in shounen, that indomitable will and drive, etc; I just hope it's not what decides everything. These are demons, and demons (AB especially) are clearly stronger than Claymores. Sure, there has been a sense of loss, but as a writer -- you were right on that charge, Gangsta =p -- I would feel rather cheated if the plot was resolved due to blind drive (and hope...) alone.
I do feel it is Clare's greatest asset, in that she is able in all likelihood to press her limits and control her Yoki better due to her higher humanity. I wonder what will be the case with Clarice, and just what Yagi is going for with her. Probably what Torri said, being the anchor for Miata. Captain Obvious here, but I smell a plotline where Miata awakens and is brought back by her affection for Clarice. I simply hope it's done well.
Of course there's more to it. It's just a theme. Like the whole Nakame thing. You can still have an advanced story line with it. But does Clarice have to have a special tech like Clare? Characters aren't just defined by there techs. Theres Raki ,who is pretty tough now but still is still a human.his worth comes from the effect that he has own two important people. That doesn't lesson the story for me.
(It's nakama, btw)
That's just it - I think that particular theme goes against the nature of Yagi. Let's look at some other shonen mangas for comparrison...
Naruto started out awesome - I wont deny it. Tale of ninjas with cool powers, and Naruto aiming high attempting to be the next Hokage. He was training hard, and walking the road to achieving his dreams. When others told him it was impossible, his reaction was "watch me".
Recently though, Naruto has become much more group centered. Naruto still is a one trick pony (kagebunshin / raisengan). Indeed, his techniques are simply to overwhelm with numbers. Group mentality is stressed. Fight with the group, fight for the group, die for the group. It may be romantic (not in the 'romance' sense of the word), but it's BS. Naruto's ambition to become Hokage have all but disappeared. Now he is concerned with helping everyone else (Konoha, Sasuke, etc). The motivations, turned out to be a lie. Konoha, the village that hated him, now loves him and is willing to die for him, to be destroyed for him, because... because... he beat up Neji and Gaara!
In the end, Naruto will become Hokage but it will be crap. He hasn't done anything to achieve that goal. His knowlegde of jutsus is pitiful. The only way he'll be the best ninja in the village is if all the better ones either die off or refuse the job. Kishimoto will no doubt excuse it though by letting Naruto defeat Pain. This, no doubt, he'll do with the help of everyone else - so even that wont be justification to make him Hokage in my eyes.
Sasuke on the other hand is the one character who has drive and willingness to do what it takes and just look at what Kishimoto made him into - a moral-less easy to manipulate idiot who will have to be re-habilitated to Naruto's way of thinking.
From Sasuke and Naruto we see:
- Striving towards your goals alone will lead you down the wrong path (Sasuke). Even if you achieve your goals, you will find out they were a mistake.
- Doing nothing to further your goals will have them handed to you on a silver plate (Naruto).
- never get your hands dirty. (Orochimaru defeating Itachi took the cake... Must not get Sasuke's hands dirty now, mustn't we...)
In short:
Virtuous is: sloth, inability, reliance on others, effort.
Sinful is: pro-activeness, ability(it's dangerous for others!), self reliance, and achieving something with your own hands.
As these are the values the very story was built upon, consequently, Naruto is annoying the bejesus out of me recently.
In contrast:
The Strawhat crew is comprised of individuals first. They got together, not because they wanted to form some group per-se, but becuase it was the most efficient method of them achieving their own goals.
- Luffy wants to be pirate king.
- Zoro wants to be the best swordsman
- Sanji wants to find all blue
- Nami wants to make a map of the world.
..etc.
Since their goals coincide and they all get along, they work together as a team towards their individual goals. This is in contrast to something like Naruto where the team is more important than the individuals in it.
In One Piece, if the goals of individuals diverge, Usopp is willing to leave the Strawhat crew in the Water 7 arc. I respect that. The fact he didn't have to, makes a happy ending.
But on display are the values of: individuality, ambition, and self-improvement (all while enjoying life with like-minded firends)
Like One Piece, the characters are individuals first.
When Guts and Griffith part ways, it is not because of something as silly as not wanting to be on the same 'team', it's because their goals diverged diametrically and irreconsiably.
Indeed the very story of Beresk is really just a story of 2 individuals who have had a falling out. It's not that either was anti-social or anything, but they both prusued the path they had to follow and it brought them into conflist. It's this that I probably find most interesting about Beresk.
So, back to Claymore.
Clare's goals are:
- to settle things with Pricilla, due to her love for Teresa (I suspect her motive is more to presevre Teresa than kill Pricilla actually. More to find closure than revenge - it's hard to stay mad that long).
- to find Raki
- to get even with the Organization
The 6 other ghosts coallesed around Clare, rather than Clare joining the group. Clare has always been willing to do what it takes to achieve her goals - she left the organization to search for Raki. She was willing to leave the ghosts to go south. In short she has drive, motivation, ambition, determination. She trains to be stronger so as to not be dependant on others to achieve her goals herself.
These are all positive values.
Having Raki controling Pricilla and Clarice controlling Miata and using that to solve all your problems is cowardly, manipulative, pathetic and dependant on others. This would preach all the wrong ways to live life. It breaks the entire hero archetype. In a hypothetical story about a character who wanted a house, who would you rather read about: 1) someone who worked hard and bought/built one, or 2) someone who whined long enough to some organization or government and recieved one to shut them up? I want to read about success, rather than failures.
Now, I don't mind if Pricilla and Miata are puppetted around for a bit, but they need to WANT to be manipulated, and if push comes to shove and their goals diverge form that of their puppetmasters (like in Berserk) I fully expect both Miata and Pricilla to follow their own paths in life (Pricilla more so, due to Miata's young age). Raki has already hinted at Pricilla reaching her limit. When/if that happens I expect Pricilla to look out for herself first.
As long as characters walk the same path in life, they're fine to be freinds (and they should be), but if their goals collide and neither is willing to conceed to the other, they have no choice but to become enemies. Getting along with everyone is not and should not be a goal in and of itself. That is what I expect from Yagi and from Claymore.
--
@Chiba: I think Galatea is barred from Competing. Afterall, it's no contest. Try as they might, the others are just trying out for 2nd place. May as well barr her and call it the "Ms Runnerup Claymore" competition.
Supermutant
2008-12-23, 00:21
Quick summation of the below rambling:
Raki and Clarice are likeable and valuable characters in large part because of their relationships with people who happen to be stronger than themselves, but Claymore isn't lionizing them because they have influence on someone stronger. If they are to be admired, it will be because of their genuine empathy and connection towards people who are used or feared by others. (A big theme in this story) It's not about utility.
I don't think that if Raki or Clarice went around just using Priscilla or Miata that they would be considered heroic. However, that would have no impact on their value as characters in the story and I don't think it would overshadow Clare's thematic value which is a stark contrast to that idea.
That having been said, I don't think its fair to say that Clarice or Raki are themselves desiring to control such dangerous wards or intend to solve all of their problems by using someone else's talents.
If Clarice has for example, ordered Miata behind her and attacked Galatea herself, she might be thematically more like Clare, or more admirable, but I don't think that that would inherently make for a stronger story;
Though if the theme were to be a positive heroic message, and Clarice was supposed to be a part of that, I'd have to say that such an example would be a contrast and not a complement, (Though good stories can have those too) and wouldn't be an example of the moral of the story.
Clarice and Raki and their relationships with their charges do however help underline one of the tenets of the story --the importance of human contact. Mitata and Priscilla, like Clare and Theresa; require human contact.
Clarice and Raki, while not the only source of that, are admirable in the story in that they provide empathy readily, and are valuable to the story because the relationships they create with unapproachable characters make for interesting reading. (I certainly agree with one of the above comments that a character is more than just their power, and can be admirable even without strength --it's like asking what good is your stay at home mother or something...)
Essentially, Raki and Clarice are good characters and/or likeable because they are kind and friendly to Priscilla and Miata, not because they control them. The former point reinforces one of the positive themes of Claymore, ...while admittedly the latter point contrasts another one of the themes of Claymore. (People being used) Though given the context of the situations I wouldn't say that Raki or Clarice are meant to be considered bad persons because their situations echo other negative power relationships in the story.
Thematically as well, these characters don't all have to represent the same side in an ideology to be likeable as people or valuable to the story.
Also, while I agree that relying on someone else is not inherently a constructive or, (usually) positive message; I disagree that setting aside a goal in exchange for interpersonal harmony is inherently not a positive message. Society is built on such compromise, and it just may be that some goals are not worth conflict. If that's what the author wants to put forward, that can be a good message.
Of course, there is also the possibility that the theme is not even meant to be a moral at all, in which case all of that can be thrown out the window. Stories don't have to be positive.
I think though that theoretical discussion aside, Claymore isn't going to be about symbiotic or parasitic relationships as a form of problem solving. (Though there is kind of pattern in this story of people being used as weapons by others)
Claymore does seem to be about do-it-yourself concepts like freedom, justice, a and the great importance of camaraderie. The latter also being an example of something you earn, strive for or protect; it just happens to be an example of a goal revolving around people. (Of course, whether Clare wants to forget her goal of revenge so she can be with Raki might be a conflict in these greater themes later on)
Quick summation of the below rambling:
Raki and Clarice are likeable and valuable characters in large part because of their relationships with people who happen to be stronger than themselves, but Claymore isn't lionizing them because they have influence on someone stronger. If they are to be admired, it will be because of their genuine empathy and connection towards people who are used or feared by others. (A big theme in this story) It's not about utility.
I don't think that if Raki or Clarice went around just using Priscilla or Miata that they would be considered heroic. However, that would have no impact on their value as characters in the story and I don't think it would overshadow Clare's thematic value which is a stark contrast to that idea.
That having been said, I don't think its fair to say that Clarice or Raki are themselves desiring to control such dangerous wards or intend to solve all of their problems by using someone else's talents.
If Clarice has for example, ordered Miata behind her and attacked Galatea herself, she might be thematically more like Clare, or more admirable, but I don't think that that would inherently make for a stronger story;
Though if the theme were to be a positive heroic message, and Clarice was supposed to be a part of that, I'd have to say that such an example would be a contrast and not a complement, (Though good stories can have those too) and wouldn't be an example of the moral of the story.
Clarice and Raki and their relationships with their charges do however help underline one of the tenets of the story --the importance of human contact. Mitata and Priscilla, like Clare and Theresa; require human contact.
Clarice and Raki, while not the only source of that, are admirable in the story in that they provide empathy readily, and are valuable to the story because the relationships they create with unapproachable characters make for interesting reading. (I certainly agree with one of the above comments that a character is more than just their power, and can be admirable even without strength --it's like asking what good is your stay at home mother or something...)
Essentially, Raki and Clarice are good characters and/or likeable because they are kind and friendly to Priscilla and Miata, not because they control them. The former point reinforces one of the positive themes of Claymore, ...while admittedly the latter point contrasts another one of the themes of Claymore. (People being used) Though given the context of the situations I wouldn't say that Raki or Clarice are meant to be considered bad persons because their situations echo other negative power relationships in the story.
Thematically as well, these characters don't all have to represent the same side in an ideology to be likeable as people or valuable to the story.
Also, while I agree that relying on someone else is not inherently a constructive or, (usually) positive message; I disagree that setting aside a goal in exchange for interpersonal harmony is inherently not a positive message. Society is built on such compromise, and it just may be that some goals are not worth conflict. If that's what the author wants to put forward, that can be a good message.
Of course, there is also the possibility that the theme is not even meant to be a moral at all, in which case all of that can be thrown out the window. Stories don't have to be positive.
I think though that theoretical discussion aside, Claymore isn't going to be about symbiotic or parasitic relationships as a form of problem solving. (Though there is kind of pattern in this story of people being used as weapons by others)
Claymore does seem to be about do-it-yourself concepts like freedom, justice, a and the great importance of camaraderie. The latter also being an example of something you earn, strive for or protect; it just happens to be an example of a goal revolving around people. (Of course, whether Clare wants to forget her goal of revenge so she can be with Raki might be a conflict in these greater themes later on)
We really agree on just about everything.
I'll just point out, that Clarice and Raki are not the main character. I think it's fine to illustrate by contrast - e.g. showing Clare being brave by showing Clarice and her cowardice. Not all characters are saints, nor can they be. This story could not be told without a little darling like Ophelia seperating our protagonists, afterall.
What I was up in arms about was the suggestion that the stories conflict would be solved by some magical force of "humanity" - e.g. Raki sweeping in to save Clare at the climax of the story and yelling his ultimate attack: "Pricilla! Sick 'em!". That would destroy just about everything Clare has worked for. I'm not saying Raki can't save Clare - his goal is to be strong enough to protect her, afterall - but the final boss needs to be beaten by Clare utilizing whatever makes her special enough to be the main character of this story. This story must be solved by Clare and her efforts.
Also, it's not that Claymore is about any of the themes I mentioned per se (symbiotic/parasitic/ambition/sloth/etc). What I'm hoping for more is that these are some of the core principles of Yagi-sensei. As such, he'll make a story (which he can take in whatever direction he wants [even tragedy if he desires]) that will resonates with me and my core principles, instead of something that dissappoints and annoys me like Naruto has recently. If his other work, Angel Densetsu, is any indication, I don't think I have much to worry about. It's in good hands.
Sleepy Speculator
2008-12-23, 08:22
I won't disagree with any of that v.well thought out synopsis, but i feel from the perspective of the reader that Clarice *is* a protaganist who is somehow linked to the main character, which has yet to be shown...
Other characters that have been followed have all been shown to have links to Clare, they may not be the main character but when the story follows them we all know who they are.
Rubul - Clare's handler/father figure? shown reporting to the org a few times
Teresa - The saviour/ mother figure
Priscila and other Ab's - Nemesis's making their moves
Raki - Clare's lost morality pet, struggling to survive in a crapsack world
Galatea - A comrade who shares respect with Clare
Miria - Leader figure
Helen and Deneve - troublesome comrades in a chapter without Clare
Clarice - ? Just who is she in relation to the main character? I don't buy that she's just a humanity anchor, towing a beserk Miata, to somehow make us feel the org is screwed up beyond what we believe.
khryoleoz
2008-12-23, 11:47
Clare's pre-emptive sensing doesn't necessarily mean she will win any fight involving Yoki, especially when superior speed is involved. It does give her an significant advantage that makes up for inferior (comparatively) speed.
I haven't engaged you in quite a while.
Irene assessed of Teresa's sensing ability that she at least surpasses any single attribute against which she was compared, even nullifying it because she basically can see it from a mile a way (so to speak).
So in a general sense, the pre-emptive sensing is supposed to give the advantage, grossly, over a stronger, or faster, and/or sexier opponent.
Now whether Clare, who is not Teresa, by her own abilities can repel and squash better opponents is entirely dependent upon whether the rest of her abilities are up to the task. Even Teresa, the true strongest in the annals of org history, got her head lopped off.
As I stated a while back, Miria's mobility outmatches Clare's completely.
Barring a closed environment (which involves cornering or trapping said Phantom) Miria's mobility has an extreme advantage that even Clare's wouldn't be able to capitalize on.
That's true if the two were competing in an obstacle course. But at least in terms of speed, I'm not sure whether Miria is dead set to win the marathon or the 100-meter dash.
The Rigald fight showed that she is not the queen of speed. Under certain conditions and certain pressures, Clare showed she can be faster. Faster of course is not the same thing as being more maneuverable, and Clare beat Rigald at his game near the edge of her powers. Contrast this w/Miria who can do the mirage thingy without releasing her powers. But neither the mirage (as shown in the slasher's arc and the northern campaign) nor predictive sensing is the be all and end all technique.
My questions are, can Clare read someone like Miria well enough to render the old, faster mirage useless? I think so.
Now that the new mirage, while slower, doesn't rely on bursts of yoma powers, does Clare have an answer to a barrage of attacks against the undetectable Miria? Sure. She can create a barrier around herself with her Windcutter.
So here we have a stalemate. If I were Clare, I would try to gain the advantage by forcing a close quarters combat or fighting out in a field w/all sorts of stuff on the ground that reveals Miria's position by sight and sound, disarm Miria, and force her to the ground, and play like rabbits.
Most likely the fight would end in a stalemate due to Miria's (superb) mobility and Clare's pre-emptive sensing + wind-cutter/flashsword, even when Yoki is involved.
Unless Clare pushes the limit which is where her greatest strength lies. (As proven several times)
That's what it would boil down to, but we're talking useless theoreticals here. The two are friends. They should be making out instead, or making a fanboy happy.
I also disagree that Clare is a better swordsman then Miria, Clare is obviously quite skilled, but Miria has been a warrior for longer then Clare has and is far from being an amateur with the sword.
Which is why I'd say Miria is probably a better swordsman then Clare, at least if we are talking about actual "skill" instead of abilities like flash-sword/wind-cutter.
There are other skills of a warrior in which Miria can be better where Clare being a better swordsman still makes Miria the better warrior.
However, I have to think carefully because what I say can be used to argue how Priscilla can be better than Teresa, which is rubbish and an utterly irrational misapplication of points I make for Clare. So when I think of them I'll let you know.
irvinethearcher
2008-12-23, 14:51
I also disagree that Clare is a better swordsman then Miria, Clare is obviously quite skilled, but Miria has been a warrior for longer then Clare has and is far from being an amateur with the sword.
Which is why I'd say Miria is probably a better swordsman then Clare, at least if we are talking about actual "skill" instead of abilities like flash-sword/wind-cutter.
Okay, i agree with the most of what you wrote in the other posts but IMO it isn't possible to separate swordsmanship in fighting with and without windcutter. IMO to use windcutter the right way the claymore must have trained hard on her swordarm because windcutter is an advanced technique which didn't even use yoki. Therefore to master windcutter you must probably have mastered all the base skills in swordsmanship as well, because in using windcutter you enhance the natural sword movements without yoki release. And as the name said swordsmanchip is fighting with the sword and that involves windcutter too. I doubt that miria can compete with irene's arm too. Therefore i think that in this one point deneve must have been dead wrong.
chibamonster
2008-12-23, 16:53
Interesting that the Miria vs Clare battle speculation is flaring up again since Helen and Deneve did their own speculation on it :D. Even the characters in the manga think Clare is an "untameable little monster" which makes her also the most unpredictable claymore in konohoa... er the island. statistically speaking, Miria should win, just like France by all statistical analysis, should have won the 4x100 relay in swimming during the Beijing Olympics because their individual times were faster. There's no way to anticipate someone like Jason Lezak breaking the world record split time for the 100 by almost a full second, and doing it all in the last 50 meters against the world record holder in the same individual event (craziest swim I have ever seen). Clare's comrades seem to understand this about Clare :D.
I liked the summary Supermutant and Cyclone did of the thematic elements that stuck out to them in the story. Let me add one of the most important themes as I see it; Awakening. Claymore's individual story is really one about humans vs monsters. The problem is that most of the characters in the story have the potential or already are awakened beings and all of them have the possibility of being monsters. Cid and Galk viewed Clare as a monster when they finally had evidence of what she was. Doga village viewed Clare as a monster. Teresa viewed herself as a monster. Priscilla viewed Teresa as a monster. I just typed monster so many times it started looking like a made up word when I reread it. Now I'm thinking of the MonStars from Space Jam...
The battle of perceptions over this monster issue is paramount to the story in my mind. What is a human and what is a monster? Even the worst of the monsters have human sides with human needs to some extent. Manipulation over these needs is huge in Claymore. Contrasting it is genuine love or at least charisma. Controlling monsters, by whatever means, can be as important or more important than having power yourself. The organization uses Claymores, Isley manipulates his minions, Rubel manipulates everyone and everything, and so on. This contrasts the genuine feelings like Teresa and Clare, Clare and Raki, Raki and Priscilla, Miata and Clarice and the like.
Relationships would be next because even the worst of these monsters can are in relationships; Riful and Dauff, Agatha's proposition to Cid, the Bandits who worked as a team, Ophelia and her brother, etc. Claymore explores the interaction between characters, namely in respect to the theme of awakening and monsters. I am reminded of Disney's Beauty and the Beast where the Beast says, "who could ever love a beast like me?" Claymore explores that same theme multiple times in multiple ways.
I think the central theme to Claymore is summarized by Teresa's wish for Clare to live "as a human". Though as we have seen in the story, literally being human is no guarantee that one will not be a monster. I think it is best explained by Irene when she tells Clare that Teresa died happy because Clare accepted her while everyone else; humans, youma, AB's, other Claymore's, and even herself, viewed her as a monster. Claymore is a story of characters with monster and human sides in which their relationships, whether good or bad, are explored and the characters themselves actually develop. The internal or external struggle of human vs monster makes up just about every conflict we see Claymore. Manipulation or love make up the rest as we see it played out through the different relationships of the story. Well, that was a quick overview of how I see it.
I also agree with Sleepy Speculator that Clarice holds an interesting place as a *new character*. She has had more alone screen time than anyone in the series but Clare. Something is special about this girl and we will some day find out just what it is.
Aquillion
2008-12-23, 17:23
I also agree with Sleepy Speculator that Clarice holds an interesting place as a *new character*. She has had more alone screen time than anyone in the series but Clare. Something is special about this girl and we will some day find out just what it is.I dunno about that. A lot of her screentime is actually with Miata nearby... Another interpretation of it is that having her as an observer just the easiest way to introduce and follow Miata, since Miata herself is pretty hard for readers to empathize with. Since Miata may be the most powerful currently-active Claymore short of Alicia (and may actually have the potential to be more powerful -- they talk of her as a 'potential number 1' without bothering to exclude Alicia, which is weird), reasons for spending that much time on her through Clarice are much more obvious.
My theory, assuming the fact that they didn't exclude Alicia when saying that Miata is a potential number 1 was deliberate (and that the exclusion wasn't just implied), is that they intend to forcibly awaken Miata and use Clarice to try and control her in a 'constructed' equivalent to the twin bond used for Alicia/Beth. It seems insane to me, though... and I can't believe they'd tip their hands to someone who doesn't need to know that with an off-hand remark about Miata being a potential #1. But if they deliberately intended for Clairce to set herself up as Miata's mother (and perhaps even selected Miata so young deliberately, to facilitate it), it makes much more sense. Assuming Miata is around seven years old, or a little older, she could have been selected as a Claymore just after Alicia's success as a potential followup.
From the Org's perspective, that's the logical conclusion to go to from Alicia -- trying to find a way they can get the same effect without requiring natural twins.
khryoleoz
2008-12-23, 17:35
I haven't quite warmed up to Clarice as some of you. Right now, I see as much value to the character as every other secondary character that has appeared...that they're dispensible. Whatever more significant purpose she has in the story has yet to be revealed or even forshadowed. But there's no comparing the likability factor between Raki and Clarice. No one holds a candle to Raki's charity and affection, who sought the company of and supported two "monsters" willingly, wittingly, and even unto death, knowing (to whatever extent that he does) that they are monsters. Clarice was forced to pair up with Maita. And even then, during the early part of their journey to find Galatea, Clarice was deathly scared of Maita. The relationships Raki had with Clare and Priss can't be compared to Clarice's with Maita, and likewise their likability factors differ at that point. Nevermind the whiny anime voice, Raki had always been the most charitable character to be introduced.
Fenrir_valindri
2008-12-23, 18:09
Well of course we are talking about what isn't there, that's kindof the point of speculation, otherwise it would just be a chapter review, saying x beat x, y was better than y, and z had a power over 9,000. However i am trying to base the conclusions at least on what has been shown in the manga.
And I do the same.
Miria's portrayed as a very analytical/intelligent character, therefore whenever i try to write what i perceive this character's intentions to be, i try to do so without dumbing her down, whilst at the same time often falling foul of one of the fan clubs dedicated to her or others.
Take for example the end of this fight in which Miria states that she will go south 'together' with Clare. Clare has stated an intention to go South regardless of Miria's wishes, yet the together statement implies a strong connection, especially when she says 'and together with her i will exact revenge'
The truth of the fact is that Miria 'needs' Clare, in order to fulfill such a statement yet Clare has not anywhere accepted such a statement or confirmed such an intention to destroy the org. Nowhere does Clare say 'together with Miria', it's a rather one sided partnership in that sense, and Miria is by all accounts 'following' Clare south yet does not use a word that would imply a lack of leadership or equality with regards to Clare.
Now I disagree here, I don't think Miria "needed" Clare, I think Miria simply responded to Clare's desire to avenge all the "souls" inside of her, which is something Miria could understand well (considering she has a very similar reason for revenge) So she decided to leave with Clare (a like minded person) and gave the other Ghosts the option of staying safe, instead of going on a (most likely) suicide mission to gain revenge.
Of course, even Miria seems to forget that the other Ghosts are just as determined as Clare and herself, and thus they ended up going as well.
Now i'm not gonna go into the whole what level of this relationship is manipulative business, but i will say Miria was prepared to leave the other ghosts behind, which led to the whole Helen and Deneve butting in and the rest saying they too wish to come. This rather heavily implies that Miria's plan requires only herself and Clare, the rest are just bonus. And yes she may also have expected them to also follow, especially given that the 'two strongest' were leaving them in the middle of nowhere.
I really don't think Miria has a specific "master-plan" that requires Clare to complete, in fact by the way Miria talks about their approaching fight with the Organization, she thinks the chances are pretty low of winning at all. (Her statement about this not being a fight about survival)
Okay so now for the what if... and i assume Miria thought about several what if's...
what if Clare beats her conclusively in the fight... (i assume without death or serious injury)
- loss of respect
- clear indication of inferiority
- Clare continues on her quest possibly taking many of the ghosts with her, leaving Miria isolated and her ambitions for revenge in tatters as she now has to go it alone without the backup of Clare's caliber *and* she can no longer direct Clare as Clare and others could just indicate that she already lost the duel, she may also be relegated to clearly 'following' Clare in order to try and influence her.
What if Miria beats Clare conclusively? (if she can)
- Miria gains respect and has clearly displayed that she's superior *but* likely results in Clare deserting or having to be guarded/watched against desertion
- similarly whatever Miria plans is now hindered by Clare's rebellious/insurbordinate nature, after all Clare has her own plans. For sure Clare could follow for a while but she's still growing and sooner or later she'd challenge again, and sooner or later she'd win.
What if the fight escalates?
- someone blows their yoki suppression and if it's Miria the other ghosts may ask her to stay behind so as not to draw attention to them, if it's Clare she's likely to draw unwanted attention by anyone who would like to bump into her no matter how isolated she is, this would be either the org, Riful, or a third party and no doubt some Ab's as well, que the beginning of the story again, with Clare either on her own (like she cares) or with some well meaning friends constantly worrying about the beacon of trouble in their midst.
Worst case scenario, Miria pushes Clare hard enough that she goes for the limb awakening, and i don't think Miria would want to fight 'that' Clare no matter how much training she had.
As Analytical and Intelligent as Miria is, this entire situation that caused the duel to start in the first place was too sudden to claim it had so much "manipulation" behind it.
I believe Miria wanted to test Clare's strength and see if she could even survive fighting against the possible opponents she would run across, not only that, she wanted to test Clare's motive. (Thus the reason she asked why she was going South in the first place)
Alternatively, it is possible Miria was upset that Clare wanted to leave the North (and the other Ghosts) simply because Clare realized that Raki was no longer in the North. So Miria wanted to prevent her from going, and after seeing how hard Clare was fighting her, she asked her if she was really going South just to pursue Raki. (Hell, we could even joke that Miria was jealous)
@fenrir
I admire your steadfast belief in Miria, however i just can't detract from one character on behalf of another, when i say there's something wrong with Clarice i don't mean Miata 'isn't' #1 material etc.
Clare's speed has increased dramatically since her start where even yoma have mocked her for being slow, her two handed fighting speed with Irene's arm and her own quicksword trained left arm was certainly fast enough to draw comment from Ophelia before she even used her new technique. Similarly Clare's speed has been increasing to the extent where she can react and see things increasingly that were previously beyond her.
But that also completely ignores Miria's growth, which has been impressive as well. Clare's speed has obviously risen significantly, as has her abilities, but time is equal for everyone, especially people who train together, and Miria's strength grew as well. The fact Clare is basically even with her is a big mark in Clare's favor as it is, but it doesn't means he is already stronger then Miria.
four arms? six arms for example thought he'd left 3 claymores with lethal wounds except Deneve could regenerate, Helen was lucky enough to survive a 50/50 wound, and Clare had somehow taken hits only to non vital areas (it's implied by Helen's shocked looking face that Clare let herself be hit, therefore was fast enough to avoid getting hit in vital areas at least, unlike the other two teammates)
That was more because of Clare's Yoki-sensing than pure speed, both Helen and Deneve were likely faster at this point.
similarly Rigardo was fast enough to down 4 strong claymores like they were asleep on their feet, and Deneve went down to a blow that Clare had even the time to warn her about. And even before she went even more beserk she was fast enough to see and avoid the nails that impaled a flagging Miria. (Miria's speed drops in a prolonged fight even as Clares just keeps increasing)
Clare's speed was increasing because she was already going over her limit, while Miria never seemed to go past 10-30%, not to mention Miria's old Phantoms (while faster) also took a huge amount of Stamina. Clare's strength also shows itself when she pushes the limit, as I have stated before.
I could go on and on, but instead i'll leave this humorous note...
ch 30 pg 08
Helen "Hmmph how pompous"
ch 50 pg 26
Helen - "What's this Clare? you teamed with some stuck up bitch again?"
ch 67 pg 25
Helen - "oi oi Miria aren't you acting a little stuck up now?"
ch 85 pg 14
Helen - "i don't care about Mira's orders or your's Deneve"
It seems although Helen likes Miria she also has an interesting perspective on her...
:heh: Someone like Helen would always see a commanding officer like Miria as "stuck-up" but that's Helen for you. :heh:
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I haven't engaged you in quite a while.
:cool:
Irene assessed of Teresa's sensing ability that she at least surpasses any single attribute against which she was compared, even nullifying it because she basically can see it from a mile a way (so to speak).
So in a general sense, the pre-emptive sensing is supposed to give the advantage, grossly, over a stronger, or faster, and/or sexier opponent.
Now whether Clare, who is not Teresa, by her own abilities can repel and squash better opponents is entirely dependent upon whether the rest of her abilities are up to the task. Even Teresa, the true strongest in the annals of org history, got her head lopped off.
Now, as you have stated yourself, Clare is most certainly not Teresa, her natural abilities are far below Teresa's, even post time skip. I know (and stated) that Clare's pre-emptive sensing is a significant advantage, but that doesn't mean it is an absolute advantage is what I was saying.
and Miria sexy > Clare sexy btw :P
That's true if the two were competing in an obstacle course. But at least in terms of speed, I'm not sure whether Miria is dead set to win the marathon or the 100-meter dash.
Actually, I'm certain she would win any of those with her new Phantom.
The Rigaldo fight showed that she is not the queen of speed. Under certain conditions and certain pressures, Clare showed she can be faster. Faster of course is not the same thing as being more maneuverable, and Clare beat Rigald at his game near the edge of her powers. Contrast this w/Miria who can do the mirage thingy without releasing her powers. But neither the mirage (as shown in the slasher's arc and the northern campaign) nor predictive sensing is the be all and end all technique.
Rigaldo was an awakened #2 and a speed demon himself (no Queen) and Clare's speed only surpassed his while pushing her limits. If Miria were to push her limits in the same way what would the results be then?
Rigaldo was operating at 100% of his engine, Clare was doing the same (by awakening her legs), but Miria was stuck at around 10-30% with a gas guzzler.
So it is a bit unfair to compare the relative speeds of the 3 in that fight; one was an AB, Clare was over her limit (by a lot) and Miria limited herself to golden-eyes with a (then) stamina draining technique.
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I honestly think Miata's sixth-sense + enhanced senses has the potential to be the end all technique, but that doesn't mean the new Phantom and Pre-emptive sensing aren't high up in the technique power scale.
My questions are, can Clare read someone like Miria well enough to render the old, faster mirage useless? I think so.
Possibly, but considering Ophelia's sword got past her sensing, and Rigaldo did manage to injure her as well, it is far from an infallible technique. Clare still has a human mind, and a human mind can make mistakes even when it sees an attack coming. (Just because you see the attack, doesn't mean you can stop it)
Unlike Teresa, Clare doesn't have the all around immense power to back up Yoki-sensing (not to say Clare is weak)
Now that the new mirage, while slower, doesn't rely on bursts of yoma powers, does Clare have an answer to a barrage of attacks against the undetectable Miria? Sure. She can create a barrier around herself with her Windcutter.
Then it becomes a matter of Stamina, what takes more energy, the Windcutter, or the new Mirage? We don't know that answer, so we don't know who has the advantage.
In a contest of just Stamina, I'd bet on Miria over Clare (considering Clare's basic stats aren't her strength)
So here we have a stalemate. If I were Clare, I would try to gain the advantage by forcing a close quarters combat or fighting out in a field w/all sorts of stuff on the ground that reveals Miria's position by sight and sound, disarm Miria, and force her to the ground, and play like rabbits.
But forcing close quarters is next to impossible considering Miria's speed/mobility advantage. Not to mention close quarters would cause problems for Clare as well, considering a sword the size of a Claymore is impossible to use at that range, and it becomes a hand to hand fight, and thus Clare is forced on the ground (with Miria on top) and they play like rabbits. :uhoh: :heh: :naughty:
That's what it would boil down to, but we're talking useless theoreticals here. The two are friends. They should be making out instead, or making a fanboy happy.
Indeed.
There are other skills of a warrior in which Miria can be better where Clare being a better swordsman still makes Miria the better warrior.
Possibly, but I was talking combat experience, which naturally increases sword skill, and Miria has more of it. Of course, Clare could be some sort of prodigy with the sword, but we really haven't gotten any sign that she is significantly better then other Claymore's in a straight up sword fight.
However, I have to think carefully because what I say can be used to argue how Priscilla can be better than Teresa, which is rubbish and an utterly irrational misapplication of points I make for Clare. So when I think of them I'll let you know.
Heh, covering all your bases I see, but don't worry, I think Teresa was a far more skilled (and at the time) more powerful warrior then Priscilla back then, but like Clare, she had a lot of room to grow.
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Okay, i agree with the most of what you wrote in the other posts but IMO it isn't possible to separate swordsmanship in fighting with and without windcutter. IMO to use windcutter the right way the claymore must have trained hard on her swordarm because windcutter is an advanced technique which didn't even use yoki. Therefore to master windcutter you must probably have mastered all the base skills in swordsmanship as well, because in using windcutter you enhance the natural sword movements without yoki release. And as the name said swordsmanchip is fighting with the sword and that involves windcutter too. I doubt that miria can compete with irene's arm too. Therefore i think that in this one point deneve must have been dead wrong.
You may have a point about Windcutter, since it is based on sword-drawing techniques (even if it is implausible fencing powers.)
But the wind cutter still remains limited in the fact the strikes can only come from one place (since it is a sword-drawing technique) and Irene's arm is the only arm that can use it. Too bad this isn't a Martial Arts manga, or someone would surely take advantage of that. :eyespin:
As for Miria competing with Irene's arm, we really don't know how Clare or Miria compare to Irene at this point, but I wouldn't be so quick to say that Miria couldn't match that arm with her current strength. (At least not without knowing where Miria/Clare stand in the powerscale)
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Sorry for the wall of text everyone.
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As for Clarice, I think she still has a bigger role to play, I'm not sure how big, but we didn't spend that much time on her for no reason.
I also believe the theme of Claymore is humanity, about what it really means to be a human. Even Father Vincent admitted that he admired the humanity of the Claymores.
Helen's Apple
2008-12-23, 19:07
Great posts, Chiba and Fenrir. Chiba, your analysis of the themes and ideals behind Claymore Awakening was not exhaustive, but it came quite close. The only thing I'd like to add is that I see some interesting potential where Awakening is concerned, insomuch where "controlled Awakening" is concerned. It goes without saying that Clare's stronger sense of humanity (and by that token, all of the Ghosts that have came back from the brink of Awakening) and her stronger human component allows her to push her limits further than any other. Does anyone else see the potential for a sort of, for lack of a better term, Enlightenment? A state in which she can freely use all of her Yoki and Yoma powers without fear of being unable to return, because her humanity is too strong to be unseated? I can certainly see such a thing occurring with a character as deliciously GAR as Clare. And, of course, it's certainly in line with the twin Goddesses of love mythos Yagi-sensei has crafted for us.
Also, Fenrir, I applaud you for laying out those counterpoints for all of the Miria/Clare debate; I haven't the patience to fuss with THAT many quotes. But I agree and support your statements. Especially the one regarding the sexy!
Also, coming from way out of left field, I'd just like to mention that I miss Undine, painfully. *sniff* The development, brashness, and freshness of her character, the dichotomy of her strength, and the willingness to grow and change were a difficult thing to see slashed in two by that lion bastard.
chibamonster
2008-12-23, 20:15
@Helen's Apple: I absolutely think some day there will be a character who will retain their humanity and have full access to all of their Awakening. I actually think many characters will do it. At the moment Priscilla is actually the closest having stopped her eating (which is really the downside of awakening) with Clare following close behind having pushed her awakening by herself farther than anyone. Jean completely awakened, but was tortured, and Alicia and Beth while able to awaken seem to have lost anything that made them human. Though I speculate Alicia and Beth do have humanity in them...
There is absolutely a progression in the development of the theme of awakening. First we heard Claymores were half youma. Then we were introduced to the black card with Elena. Then Clare partially awakened. Then we saw Priscilla awaken in the flashback. Then we met a real male AB. Then Clare crossed her limit several times against Ophelia. Ophelia showed us that AB's can have humanity. Jean showed us Claymores can retain their heart while their body completely awakens. Clare learned from that the ability to control and aim her 100% released windcutter arm. Clare then awakened her legs and arms in Pieta. Then we met Alicia and Beth and beheld the soul link. Next we saw Priscilla post time skip no longer eating people. And then we have been introduced to whatever Raciella is. The theme of awakening is developing and progressing. We now know the organization wants a fully controllable AB, and Alicia and Beth are not quite there.
And I am absolutely expecting to see Clare's fully awakened form. I speculate it is a demon or a minotaur or satyr. I'm not sure about her having wings, but I certainly hope. Though of course it will be beautiful because the AB's, especially the main character ones, are all beautifully designed.
@Aquillion: Let me clarify what I meant by alone time, as I didn't do that well. Clarice has more time as an independent entity in the story than any other character but Clare. Almost all of the other characters are shown in their relationship to Clare. In other words, we didn't follow Miria, Helen, Deneve or Galatea after the slashers arc. We followed Clare, and only saw those characters as they returned to Clare's storyline. During Pieta and afterwords we saw Galatea and Raphaela on their own storyline for a little while (never a full chapter).
But Clarice is her own entity in the story, independent of Clare's for the most part. We followed her through the north, and saw things happening around her as they related to HER storyline. We only see Miata and Agatha and even Galatea again in relationship to Clarice's point of view. Clarice has been introduced as a new protagonist as we view the world through the events surrounding her. She is the only claymore of the new generation to have this happen. We get glimpses of other characters, but in relationship to the ghosts or Clare. Even Raki is only reintroduced into the story after Clare hears about him being alive from Cid. Clarice really has her own story. While she runs into the ghosts and their story's cross, she for some reason has been invested with more development and time as a protagonist than almost anyone in the story. We do not know why yet but she is going to be extremely important to the story in the future. There are characters who are on the page more than Clarice, but not as their own independent story element. They are there in their relationship to Clare, the protagonist.
@Fenrir_valindri: Uh oh, Miria vs Clare time again. In actual battle Clare does much better than Miria, Agatha's battle included. Miria knew how to use her team and fought well, but Clare initiated the attack and she didn't freeze when Agatha took Galatea hostage. Miria did freeze. Spars don't take that into account. I know some people think Miria is beyond her freezing in bad situations, but I don't see it. She is the fastest Claymore but when things go wrong she falls apart. I like this about her as it makes me sympathize with her. Clare rushes in and that has its sad endings as well. Imperfect characters are more interesting to me.
Your argument about Clare, Rigardo and Miria was silly. Going over her limit to fight is one of Clare's abilities, and can't be written off as something that skews the scale. No one else can do it but her. Clare is the only character who fights over her limit. Miria also reached her limits in that fight, as she was pushing them, using her technique as far as she possibly could and she still got nailed by Rigardo. Clare's awakened form is exponentially beyond what her power should be from looking at her claymore stats. It's enough to make Lions cry at the beauty even when it is not completed. Miria is absolutely strong. But with Clare's limit crossing ability in the mix, I say Clare is much stronger. Hopefully she won't have to use it though as it has horrible repercussions. Barring Clare using her awakened form, and Miria not freezing when things go really bad, they would be much closer and Miria might even have the advantage. I think Miria would always beat Clare in spars as I don't think they will ever fight each other to the death. At least I hope not.
khryoleoz
2008-12-23, 20:55
Now I disagree here, I don't think Miria "needed" Clare, I think Miria simply responded to Clare's desire to avenge all the "souls" inside of her, which is something Miria could understand well (considering she has a very similar reason for revenge) So she decided to leave with Clare (a like minded person) and gave the other Ghosts the option of staying safe, instead of going on a (most likely) suicide mission to gain revenge.
I get what you're saying but you're making a distinction without much difference. Miria would not say she needed Clare per se. But being unable to carry out her mission on her own (I'm presuming this because she did decide to team up with somebody who happens to be Clare), she needed someone strong and Clare was precisely that person.
Of course, even Miria seems to forget that the other Ghosts are just as determined as Clare and herself, and thus they ended up going as well.
That's because when she decided to go with Clare, Miria factored in that the two of them would be sufficient to do what she had in mind.
I really don't think Miria has a specific "master-plan" that requires Clare to complete, in fact by the way Miria talks about their approaching fight with the Organization, she thinks the chances are pretty low of winning at all. (Her statement about this not being a fight about survival)
Yes. It just so happens that Miria does need somebody and Clare fits the bill.
As Analytical and Intelligent as Miria is, this entire situation that caused the duel to start in the first place was too sudden to claim it had so much "manipulation" behind it.
I believe Miria wanted to test Clare's strength and see if she could even survive fighting against the possible opponents she would run across, not only that, she wanted to test Clare's motive. (Thus the reason she asked why she was going South in the first place)
There are still some things bugging me about Miria's motive in duelling with Clare. There was no real practical reason for it that I can logically reconcile.
Her deciding to leave the group with Clare strongly suggests that she was looking to ally herself with someone strong to accomplish her self-appointed mission. Her electing Clare to be the sole subject of her test further suggests that Miria thought that Clare was the person who would fill the role before hand.
If Miria was hoping to recruit a strong ally in Clare to help her with her mission, and she was uncertain about Clare's strength that she needed to test it in order to determine her capacity, then she was operating under one of two basic assumptions, 1) that by issuing such a challenge she herself is stronger than Clare, and being the stronger of the two she guarantees control of the outcome and come out of it alive, or 2) she had no idea what the outcome would be and she was banking on the hope that should Clare win, Clare would be gracious enough to spare her. Either way, in order for such a test to yield results that are valid, it required that Miria did battle Clare full on, at least within the limits of their current strength.
Yet, testing Clare involved two risks. If the severity of the test proved that Clare was weak, then there goes her mission if it hinged upon recruiting a strong ally. If Clare is proven stronger and without mercy, there goes her mission with her.
If you say that Miria knew that she herself was stronger or strong enough to handle Clare that she needn't worry about her own safety, that would suggest that she already knows Clare's strength and that there'd be no purpose to testing her. Yet she did.
Something compelled Miria to go with Clare, and as quick as she was to announce it suggests that the decision was premeditated and not out of whim and arbitrary. The decision was only accelerated when Clare announced she was leaving the group, and the decision was made without considering anyone else from the group joining them.
Alternatively, it is possible Miria was upset that Clare wanted to leave the North (and the other Ghosts) simply because Clare realized that Raki was no longer in the North. So Miria wanted to prevent her from going, and after seeing how hard Clare was fighting her, she asked her if she was really going South just to pursue Raki. (Hell, we could even joke that Miria was jealous)
This would mock the character and reduce her to a caricature.
I'm more inclined to believe that the duel was completely gratuitous on Yagi's part. And why not? Why can't he afford himself the indulgence? It was already assumed that Miria was previously stronger than Clare. Similar to how the point of ES1 was to show that Teresa had the power to squash an AO type bug, the point of the duel was to demonstrate the progress of Clare and show how much she had closed the gap between her and Miria, to the point where they are equal in some respect.
But that also completely ignores Miria's growth, which has been impressive as well. Clare's speed has obviously risen significantly, as has her abilities, but time is equal for everyone, especially people who train together, and Miria's strength grew as well. The fact Clare is basically even with her is a big mark in Clare's favor as it is, but it doesn't means he is already stronger then Miria.
I don't think that it's just time where the two had been equalized. If we presume Deneve to be right about Miria being "stronger" than Clare at the beginning of the Northern Campaign, Clare's development throughout the fight with Rigald had probably equalized them at that point (if we can believe that Clare's semi-awakening extended her limits and thus her abilities). So where they became equal pre-time skip, they are equal post-time skip with the equal time that they've had.
That was more because of Clare's Yoki-sensing than pure speed, both Helen and Deneve were likely faster at this point.
Yes, but sense and response are two different facilities. Clare has to be able to move fast enough to avoid getting hit in the vital areas.
Clare's speed was increasing because she was already going over her limit, while Miria never seemed to go past 10-30%, not to mention Miria's old Phantoms (while faster) also took a huge amount of Stamina. Clare's strength also shows itself when she pushes the limit, as I have stated before.
I'm not sure about this. Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I understand of the Mirage, the use of yoma power is functionally similar to QuickSword isn't it? The burst of yoma power used to perform the mirage is not a burst at 30%, just as every move of the QuickSword is not a burst at 30% or whatever number. Where QuickSword is a controlled awakening confined to a limb, the Mirage is a controlled release of high amounts of yoma power confined to a short burst, which is why Miria could only do it for a limited period. Maybe the databooks can be checked on that.
Now, as you have stated yourself, Clare is most certainly not Teresa, her natural abilities are far below Teresa's, even post time skip. I know (and stated) that Clare's pre-emptive sensing is a significant advantage, but that doesn't mean it is an absolute advantage is what I was saying.
Agreed.
and Miria sexy > Clare sexy btw :P
Disagree! Feminine style short hair, loli flash-back, Houko Kuwashima's voice, this amounts to Clare = sexy > Miria.
Actually, I'm certain she would win any of those with her new Phantom.
Well, comparing like things would be the determinate factor.
Rigaldo was an awakened #2 and a speed demon himself (no Queen) and Clare's speed only surpassed his while pushing her limits.
Sorry. He was Isley's biatch, which makes him the speed queen.
If Miria were to push her limits in the same way what would the results be then?
Rigaldo was operating at 100% of his engine, Clare was doing the same (by awakening her legs), but Miria was stuck at around 10-30% with a gas guzzler.
So it is a bit unfair to compare the relative speeds of the 3 in that fight; one was an AB, Clare was over her limit (by a lot) and Miria limited herself to golden-eyes with a (then) stamina draining technique.
Going back to what I said earlier, which I do say out of uncertainty, if Miria's mirage is the product of a short burst of power at high level yoki release, then we can imagine that Miria doesn't get faster by pushing her yoma power, but rather sustains the speed indefinitely...at least until she's pooped out tired. But, I can't of course discount the very probability that she would become even faster. And it's not like she or "him" had been the standard for speed. Isley as far as we know can out-maneuver them. But as ES7 shows, Teresa can out-chase Isley and evade his homing arrows. If Clare can inherit that ability, then wow!
I honestly think Miata's sixth-sense + enhanced senses has the potential to be the end all technique, but that doesn't mean the new Phantom and Pre-emptive sensing aren't high up in the technique power scale.
That can't be. Maita herself proves that those abilities on their own are insufficient even with her strength.
Possibly, but considering Ophelia's sword got past her sensing, and Rigaldo did manage to injure her as well, it is far from an infallible technique. Clare still has a human mind, and a human mind can make mistakes even when it sees an attack coming. (Just because you see the attack, doesn't mean you can stop it)
Yes, but that only shows that there are certain conditions to which Clare would deal with it.
Unlike Teresa, Clare doesn't have the all around immense power to back up Yoki-sensing (not to say Clare is weak)
But what I've been saying all along is that Clare does have Teresa's immense power. She just needs to be able to draw upon it.
Then it becomes a matter of Stamina, what takes more energy, the Windcutter, or the new Mirage? We don't know that answer, so we don't know who has the advantage.
In a contest of just Stamina, I'd bet on Miria over Clare (considering Clare's basic stats aren't her strength)
Hmm...I think you're right here. Clare is known to lose it very quickly.
But forcing close quarters is next to impossible considering Miria's speed/mobility advantage. Not to mention close quarters would cause problems for Clare as well, considering a sword the size of a Claymore is impossible to use at that range, and it becomes a hand to hand fight, and thus Clare is forced on the ground (with Miria on top) and they play like rabbits. :uhoh: :heh: :naughty:
Not really. I can think of serveral things to compel Miria into a smaller space. She can be sweet talked. She can be drugged. She can be stalked, her habits observed, a trap set up, and she can be drugged.
Possibly, but I was talking combat experience, which naturally increases sword skill, and Miria has more of it. Of course, Clare could be some sort of prodigy with the sword, but we really haven't gotten any sign that she is significantly better then other Claymore's in a straight up sword fight.
Well, swordskill and combat experience are distinct things. It's kind of like the difference between Kenshin and Saito. Kenshin would be the possessor of better sword skills over all, but Saito is the preferred combatant. Plus, Gatotsu kills anything.
Heh, covering all your bases I see, but don't worry, I think Teresa was a far more skilled (and at the time) more powerful warrior then Priscilla back then, but like Clare, she had a lot of room to grow.
No, I'm just making excuses to not go any further. It was more a joke.
But if I were to take up the task, I would say that Miria's ability to strategize battle plans already puts her ahead of any warrior in terms of overall combat effectiveness. Greater sword skills help to keep one alive in a sword fight. Knowing how to operate in battles helps one to not just stay alive but to accomplish the objective for which one engages in battle.
I think that this is the real difference between Clare and Miria's combat effectiveness.
@Fenrir_valindri:[/B] Uh oh, Miria vs Clare time again. In actual battle Clare does much better than Miria, Agatha's battle included. Miria knew how to use her team and fought well, but Clare initiated the attack and she didn't freeze when Agatha took Galatea hostage. Miria did freeze. Spars don't take that into account. I know some people think Miria is beyond her freezing in bad situations, but I don't see it. She is the fastest Claymore but when things go wrong she falls apart. I like this about her as it makes me sympathize with her. Clare rushes in and that has its sad endings as well. Imperfect characters are more interesting to me.
Your argument about Clare, Rigardo and Miria was silly. Going over her limit to fight is one of Clare's abilities, and can't be written off as something that skews the scale. No one else can do it but her. Clare is the only character who fights over her limit. Miria also reached her limits in that fight, as she was pushing them, using her technique as far as she possibly could and she still got nailed by Rigardo. Clare's awakened form is exponentially beyond what her power should be from looking at her claymore stats. It's enough to make Lions cry at the beauty even when it is not completed. Miria is absolutely strong. But with Clare's limit crossing ability in the mix, I say Clare is much stronger. Hopefully she won't have to use it though as it has horrible repercussions. Barring Clare using her awakened form, and Miria not freezing when things go really bad, they would be much closer and Miria might even have the advantage. I think Miria would always beat Clare in spars as I don't think they will ever fight each other to the death. At least I hope not.
Man, there's I reason why I both love and hate you. There are just things you can see that I can't and wish I could.
uhm, there is a huge difference between "can't" and "don't want to."
Sleepy Speculator
2008-12-23, 21:39
I'm glad i had my sarcasm detecting reading glasses on for this page, but i feel that chiba and Khryoleoz have just rendered me unemployed, with all that.
So i'll stick to a small speculation regarding awakenings, which i posted before, i believe it's possible that Helen and Miria can't control their yoki, as well as Deneve and Clare does when they are near their limit. The Offensive warriors seem to get a bout of aggressiveness which sends them over the edge far too easily, and Miria was shown clearly struggling to maintain any sort of composure at all. Similarly Helen says she's rather like a guy when it comes down to it.
Deneve on the other hand is the only Defensive warrior to be shown to be half awakened, and serves as a template for Clare who can read it, on controlling her yoki over the limit. The difference being i think, possibly that the Defensive warriors seem to need to 'push' to get their yoki to the limits, though it's still a risk.
All i'm saying is i believe there's a v.good reason Clare can do something Miria and Helen haven't been shown repeating...
khryoleoz
2008-12-23, 21:40
uhm, there is a huge difference between "can't" and "don't want to."
Are you picking a fight? >_>
Soujoricho_clariveL
2008-12-23, 22:49
Can anyone tell where can i read ES 7 where teresa was evading isley's attacks... PLsss.................
Interesting that the Miria vs Clare battle speculation is flaring up again since Helen and Deneve did their own speculation on it :D. Even the characters in the manga think Clare is an "untameable little monster" which makes her also the most unpredictable claymore in konohoa... er the island. statistically speaking, Miria should win, just like France by all statistical analysis, should have won the 4x100 relay in swimming during the Beijing Olympics because their individual times were faster. There's no way to anticipate someone like Jason Lezak breaking the world record split time for the 100 by almost a full second, and doing it all in the last 50 meters against the world record holder in the same individual event (craziest swim I have ever seen). Clare's comrades seem to understand this about Clare :D.
I liked the summary Supermutant and Cyclone did of the thematic elements that stuck out to them in the story. Let me add one of the most important themes as I see it; Awakening. Claymore's individual story is really one about humans vs monsters. The problem is that most of the characters in the story have the potential or already are awakened beings and all of them have the possibility of being monsters. Cid and Galk viewed Clare as a monster when they finally had evidence of what she was. Doga village viewed Clare as a monster. Teresa viewed herself as a monster. Priscilla viewed Teresa as a monster. I just typed monster so many times it started looking like a made up word when I reread it. Now I'm thinking of the MonStars from Space Jam...
The battle of perceptions over this monster issue is paramount to the story in my mind. What is a human and what is a monster? Even the worst of the monsters have human sides with human needs to some extent. Manipulation over these needs is huge in Claymore. Contrasting it is genuine love or at least charisma. Controlling monsters, by whatever means, can be as important or more important than having power yourself. The organization uses Claymores, Isley manipulates his minions, Rubel manipulates everyone and everything, and so on. This contrasts the genuine feelings like Teresa and Clare, Clare and Raki, Raki and Priscilla, Miata and Clarice and the like.
Relationships would be next because even the worst of these monsters can are in relationships; Riful and Dauff, Agatha's proposition to Cid, the Bandits who worked as a team, Ophelia and her brother, etc. Claymore explores the interaction between characters, namely in respect to the theme of awakening and monsters. I am reminded of Disney's Beauty and the Beast where the Beast says, "who could ever love a beast like me?" Claymore explores that same theme multiple times in multiple ways.
I think the central theme to Claymore is summarized by Teresa's wish for Clare to live "as a human". Though as we have seen in the story, literally being human is no guarantee that one will not be a monster. I think it is best explained by Irene when she tells Clare that Teresa died happy because Clare accepted her while everyone else; humans, youma, AB's, other Claymore's, and even herself, viewed her as a monster. Claymore is a story of characters with monster and human sides in which their relationships, whether good or bad, are explored and the characters themselves actually develop. The internal or external struggle of human vs monster makes up just about every conflict we see Claymore. Manipulation or love make up the rest as we see it played out through the different relationships of the story. Well, that was a quick overview of how I see it.
I also agree with Sleepy Speculator that Clarice holds an interesting place as a *new character*. She has had more alone screen time than anyone in the series but Clare. Something is special about this girl and we will some day find out just what it is.
I suppose I'm not expressing myself right. It's hard. This subject is so abstract.
I'm not really interested in debating what themes are present in Claymore - Yagi will tell the story with whatever themes he wants. It's how the themes are used. Or more precisely how the themes are generated in his mind that I've been trying to talk about recently.
I believe the themes that Yagi decides to tell us about are themes he himself thinks are interesting. Themes he holds dear. In short, some of his core values must spill into the making of Claymore. Information about what kind of person he is, has spilled into Claymore. I'll try to illustrate with an example:
If someone like JK Rowling was writing Claymore with her belief system where good is defined as not killing - ever, for any reason (other than a grieving mother, who is allowed to do anything), what would the story look like? Well, it'd be different.
None of the good guys would be allowed to kill the bad guys. The bad guys would eventually kill themselves off amongst themselves, and the last few would either be re-habilited or commit suicide by attempting one last despicable act. The passing of bad guys would be mourned as well as that of the good guys - oh the senselessness of it all! Good guys giving up their lives while helping others escape, run and hide is the pinacle of heroism. Picking a fight and fighting back is unwise and needlessly provokes the enemy who are to be feared and hidden from. And despite trying your hardest and being the best among your peers, you'll still be third rate in the world - so get help from an adult before trying anything too stupid (large groups are best).
Similarly reverse engineering Yagi from his work, yeilds a value system I hold much closer to my heart than the one Rowling seems to show. For example:
- Flora teaches Clare: with power comes responsibilty (to lead)
- There are no win situations, and a whiny brat who does not understand (and has never faced such a thing before) does not stop Clare from doing what she must concerning Elena.
- Clare's resolve - she became the first to join the Org willingly.
- Things have costs - Jean dying, Irene, etc
- The existance of the nasty trade: power at the cost of humanity.
...and a lot of other little things (many mentioned here before in various contexts), all of which gives some insight into the workings of Yagi's mind.
So, I ask myself - is the concept of humanity going to be present in the story?
- Of course. It already is - in a big way.
Will the concept of humanity solve the story?
- Possibly...
Will Pricilla/Raki's or Clarice/Miata's relationship be the humanity what solves the story?
- I don't think so.
From what I gather about Yagi, I just can't see him writing about Clare and have someone else solve her problems for her. I don't think he believes in that and he simply wouldn't want to create his story that way. Basically, good stories reflect the values of their creator. I cannot see Yagi resolving the story in some way that does not reflect his own belief system.
Are you picking a fight? >_>
No... I'm just a poor pacifist :)
Can anyone tell where can i read ES 7 where teresa was evading isley's attacks... PLsss.................
You must write a letter to Yagi, in Japanese of course, and hopefully if your letter is good enough, he will mail you the ES 7 with his signature on it :)
chibamonster
2008-12-23, 23:56
@Cyclone: You are right, that is pretty abstract :D I remember you and derelict88 got into a big discussion about this same topic. It was a little bit ironic in the end because derelict88 is actually a professional comic book artist, and a very talented one at that though he now works mostly in 3D development. Too bad he doesn't come here any more. He was an interesting dude.
There are many theories about story. From Joseph Campbell to Froyd there are all sorts of ideas about stories. As I see it story is communication that instead of words use experiences through the interaction of characters, worlds, etc. I think authors can write stories that do not reflect their values, just as actors can play people they have no relation to whatsoever. For me personally the most important thing in a story is consistency and characters I can relate to (but there are lots of stories that don't have those attributes that I still love).
Story is complicated though, especially when editors, censors boards, assistants and others get involved. I would think almost more so in the competitive world of manga. There is a new manga called BAKUMAN that really investigates this which I find fascinating as I would find a documentary interesting.
Personally, from Yagi's previous work, I think "Monsters" and "demons" are his favorite theme. Even the comedy Angel Densetsu was all about the battle of perceptions about what a monster was. If anything it seems to be the most prevalent theme of Yagi's work as he constantly examines the idea that monsters can be more human than humans. He seems fascinated by humanity especially behind the mask of something terrifying like Seiichirō Kitano.
And on a side note, I don't think JK Rowling wrote the last book and a half, if not more (actually things started changing in the last bit of Order of the Pheonix). The style suffered too abrupt a change and had none of the magic (descriptions, fantastic locations, intriguing characters, etc) that the previous books had. So either they were hammered out with the help of a committee, editors, ghost writers or any number of those. That or Rowling was too burned out to write anything good any more. Ghostwriting is a fascinating subject to me because so many books are written by them.
There are many theories about story. From Joseph Campbell to Froyd there are all sorts of ideas about stories. As I see it story is communication that instead of words use experiences through the interaction of characters, worlds, etc. I think authors can write stories that do not reflect their values, just as actors can play people they have no relation to whatsoever. For me personally the most important thing in a story is consistency and characters I can relate to (but there are lots of stories that don't have those attributes that I still love).
I would disagree. Acting is role playing. A good story though - something with depth - says something convincing, original, and unique. The only place an author has to reach for that is from within - personal experiences, personal views - in short the very forces that shaped the author into the person he became. In a good story, I think there is enough material to base a good psychoanalysis, no matter how fictional the settings or character are.
In a bad or average story, you can replace self expression with materials from elsewhere of course - but that almost always ends up as cliche filled crap.
Personally, from Yagi's previous work, I think "Monsters" and "demons" are his favorite theme. Even the comedy Angel Densetsu was all about the battle of perceptions about what a monster was. If anything it seems to be the most prevalent theme of Yagi's work as he constantly examines the idea that monsters can be more human than humans. He seems fascinated by humanity especially behind the mask of something terrifying like Seiichirō Kitano.
Speaking of Angel Densetsu, the last chapter... I paused for a long time on the page Yagi asked me to stop reading (for like 5 min+). In the end, I summoned up all my willpower and stopped. But it's been killing me ever since! What's in those last few pages that is best left alone like that? I need to know!
And on a side note, I don't think JK Rowling wrote the last book and a half, if not more (actually things started changing in the last bit of Order of the Pheonix). The style suffered too abrupt a change and had none of the magic (descriptions, fantastic locations, intriguing characters, etc) that the previous books had. So either they were hammered out with the help of a committee, editors, ghost writers or any number of those. That or Rowling was too burned out to write anything good any more. Ghostwriting is a fascinating subject to me because so many books are written by them.
Nah - she wrote it. She admitted to being burned out after 5 though.
I still liked 5 - even with the sad ending. It really hit me in 6 though. The worst part of reading 6 though is that now I can't even read books 1-5 anymore without seeing the same things that annoyed me in 6 and 7 in the other 5 books as well. The problem in those books lies at the very core - the structure is rotten. Books 1-5 masked it well, but the last 2 books made the flaws in the planning of the plot obvious - examination of the flaws revealed why Rowling choose to do what she did, and it was an eye opener.
Concepts like war, fighting, and duty, ended up being written about by a pacifist feminist who is oblivous to those concepts. The result is dispointing, but not unexpected. Sadly, my expectations were so low for 7 that I almost enjoyed it the first time through... almost.
---
...unless by ghost writing you mean a certain 7 people had very little to do for 7 years...? (I wonder if the flash-pen is also a forbidden tehnique to those hiding their youki...)
chibamonster
2008-12-24, 05:57
@cyclone: A popular story is easy to find. Sales are easy to measure. But "goodness" is not so tangible. There can be polls taken and consensus on material, but as everyone has different criterion of what they expect and enjoy. I still think that a truly skilled writer, who understands their own theme, can give any message they want. Some writers are just incredibly versatile; like Shakespeare. The theme of forgiveness in The Tempest is quite different from the message of King Lear's greed or Hamlet's battle with insanity.
Of course, each of us are complex and it could be said that the author is just looking at different aspects of himself as all of us have the ability to love, hate, lust, covet, forgive, etc. But messages from the same author are not limited to their own point of view or the core of who they are. That would just be too sad. If an author can convincingly write about a place they have never been with people that don't exist I don't see any reason why they can't write about something they have never felt or give a message that is foreign from who they are. I do, however, think there are skills that make good writing and story planning just as there are skills for drawing or learning music. But of course, this is just my opinion.
As for Rowling, Ghostwriters never tell :D. The last books were awful technically and her writing style itself (if it even was hers) suffered severely. As for the messages she delivered I completely agree. I don't know if you've read the Golden Compass series, but that ending had a simmilar feel to me where it didn't match the rest of the story. I took the liberty of rewriting it for myself because the ending was so inconsistent with the rest of the story. It was so bad actually that I laughed because there is no way it was even possible within the story world.
And an interesting side note, some stories have multiple or even layered messages and some have no message at all. Some authors who understand story structure can really play with this aspect in fascinating ways. Some authors give ambiguous messages, like Tsutomu Nihei's Blame!, while others give very clear ones, like Naruto. Some author's leave interpretation up to the reader. Of course readers are as able to create messages as the author is so many times people make up their own idea's on what happens. In highschool I read Heart of Darkness and during a discussion our teacher asked us, "What was the author telling us here about Kurtz?" A girl in my class said, "The character is asking for forgiveness and is repenting." Many people agreed with her. The message in her own mind was so strong that she hallucinated it over the story the author wrote which really is an exploration of the darkest reaches of human hearts. I see this on the forum sometimes as well with dear Claymore.
Edit:
Another side note; sometimes people completely hallucinate meaning where there is none intended by the author. Once again, back in highschool I was assigned to read Isabel Allende's "The House of the Spirits" on which we would write essays for college credit. By a stroke of luck during our study time, Isabel Allende came to my city and spke at my Library. Here we had access to the author herself! So people asked her questions about the themes, the story elements, and her writing style. Her response was hilarious, "I don't know where people see all these metaphors and meanings in my writing. Green means green. That is it. I wasn't making any cultural references. I make the women in my books smarter just because I do, not because of any deeper reason. No political agenda's, I just can't create deep men." She ranted for a while. Our English teacher after the lecture said, "Ignore what she said, or it will hurt you on the test. The grader's don't want to hear that."
Wiggle wyrm
2008-12-24, 06:06
Soujoricho_clariveL
Can anyone tell where can i read ES 7 where teresa was evading isley's attacks... PLsss.................
These words are but a token,
yet none truer shall be spoken,
such you seek shall forever lie
in true blue sky.
@cyclone: A popular story is easy to find. Sales are easy to measure. But "goodness" is not so tangible. There can be polls taken and consensus on material, but as everyone has different criterion of what they expect and enjoy. I still think that a truly skilled writer, who understands their own theme, can give any message they want. Some writers are just incredibly versatile; like Shakespeare. The theme of forgiveness in The Tempest is quite different from the message of King Lear's greed or Hamlet's battle with insanity.
Of course, each of us are complex and it could be said that the author is just looking at different aspects of himself as all of us have the ability to love, hate, lust, covet, forgive, etc. But messages from the same author are not limited to their own point of view or the core of who they are. That would just be too sad. If an author can convincingly write about a place they have never been with people that don't exist I don't see any reason why they can't write about something they have never felt or give a message that is foreign from who they are. I do, however, think there are skills that make good writing and story planning just as there are skills for drawing or learning music. But of course, this is just my opinion.
As for Rowling, Ghostwriters never tell :D. The last books were awful technically and her writing style itself (if it even was hers) suffered severely. As for the messages she delivered I completely agree. I don't know if you've read the Golden Compass series, but that ending had a simmilar feel to me where it didn't match the rest of the story. I took the liberty of rewriting it for myself because the ending was so inconsistent with the rest of the story. It was so bad actually that I laughed because there is no way it was even possible within the story world.
And an interesting side note, some stories have multiple or even layered messages and some have no message at all. Some authors who understand story structure can really play with this aspect in fascinating ways. Some authors give ambiguous messages, like Tsutomu Nihei's Blame!, while others give very clear ones, like Naruto. Some author's leave interpretation up to the reader. Of course readers are as able to create messages as the author is so many times people make up their own idea's on what happens. In highschool I read Heart of Darkness and during a discussion our teacher asked us, "What was the author telling us here about Kurtz?" A girl in my class said, "The character is asking for forgiveness and is repenting." Many people agreed with her. The message in her own mind was so strong that she hallucinated it over the story the author wrote which really is an exploration of the darkest reaches of human hearts. I see this on the forum sometimes as well with dear Claymore.
Edit:
Another side note; sometimes people completely hallucinate meaning where there is none intended by the author. Once again, back in highschool I was assigned to read Isabel Allende's "The House of the Spirits" on which we would write essays for college credit. By a stroke of luck during our study time, Isabel Allende came to my city and spke at my Library. Here we had access to the author herself! So people asked her questions about the themes, the story elements, and her writing style. Her response was hilarious, "I don't know where people see all these metaphors and meanings in my writing. Green means green. That is it. I wasn't making any cultural references. I make the women in my books smarter just because I do, not because of any deeper reason. No political agenda's, I just can't create deep men." She ranted for a while. Our English teacher after the lecture said, "Ignore what she said, or it will hurt you on the test. The grader's don't want to hear that."
Lol about the anecdote. I always claimed teachers over analyzed too. So typical of schools. I have editted stories and novels though before and I will tell you it's not all BS though. Just the stuff they teach at school - that's mostly BS.
Back to the main point. It certainly is possible for an author to write about people who are diametrically different from his own views. For example, an honest man writing about a theif. Happens all the time. Most manga artists are not captains of inter-galactic battleships either.
What you wont get, for example, is the parent of pedophile victim writing a story which supports and encourages pedophilia - it's simply something they wont choose to do. This example is a bit extreme of course, but it applies to lesser things too. How do characters react (will characters try to impose their morals on others [eg. Clarice type slap a Miata when she defeats someone could not, or perhaps a more be upset at herself for not being able to stop it, or whatever])? What kind of jokes do they tell? There is no end to these little stylistic choices.
When someone like Yagi writes, all characters are some reflection of some aspect of himself. If he wanted to act like a psychopathic bitch, how would he do it? Chances are he'd have striking similarities with Ophelia. Is it possible to write characters that do not have a part of yourself? Yes, but they wont be any good. The characters must react to things somehow, and for you to not put yourself into the character you create would require inserting someone else's into it's place. This has a very high chance of ending up as cliche.
Each author has almost a specific writing fingerprint, just as manga artists have their own distinctive styles. If I place a new manga in front of you and said: "this manga was drawn by one of the following: author of One Piece, author of Bleach, author of Berserk, or the author of Claymore. Which is it?" I have complete confindence that you could identify it correctly by looking at any random page. The authors could try and mask their styles I suppose - like trying to forge a signature - but they'd get it wrong in subtle places. Same is true for writing style. It cannot all be faked. The values a person has are part of the writing style.
As for "messages from the same author are not limited to their own point of view or the core of who they are" being "too sad"...
Yagi has now spent what - 7 or 8 years - of his life making Claymore. Do you think he would do all that to describe the manufacturing process of carbon nanotubes instead? If he's taking the trouble to write about it, he's interested in it (if he spent this much time on something he wasn't interested in - THAT would be sad). If he's interested in it, then he's exploring some part of himself. That simple. It's not that they can or can't per se (they'd have a tough time, as it's 100 times harder to do something you have no interest in than something you like). It's that they wont.
Also when you say "messages", I think we may be miscommunicating. I would refer to things like "value humanity", etc to be "story themes". Messages can be much more tirvial - a simple "I find this gag funny, so that's why I used it". It's the little things. A mind that can come up with jokes like "It's like having a pet. <clare tries to share the food> Maybe better than a pet" is one I find sympathetic ("I like that joke too"). Sure - it was a Teresa who said it - but someone had to think of it. After enough of these trivial examples, it's possible to identify if you're thinking along the same wavelength as the author, in what areas you differ, and then try to guess why you differ (this is usually a result of different world views or values).
In one of the interviews with Rowling she was asked why she killed off one of the characters. She said basically, that of the pair, he seemed more manly. It got me thinking. All the strong alpha male characters in the books (there aren't that many) are indeed killed off - usually as a direct result of being "manly". Most of the weak feminine ones live. The model male figure appears to be Arthur - a hen pecked husband. Even Dumbledore she revealed after book 7 was gay. Is THIS what she thinks guys should be like? My conclusion from this is that her divorce left her pretty messed up... pity that's when she designed the overall plot. I doubt this was even all done conciously... It just reflects who she is though - whether she wanted to or not.
chibamonster
2008-12-24, 15:52
Ah! Well that makes more sense. I refer to those aspects of story and writing as "style" :D. Style also seems to be something rather fluid as it does change over time, sometimes dramatically so. Like the first bit of angel densetsu or looking at Inoue Takehiko's style evolve through Slam Dunk into Vagabond. Being interested in what you are writing has many faces as well. I can see what you mean though about messages, styles, and such.
Sleepy Speculator
2008-12-24, 15:56
I'll try not to break into this interesting conversation on comparitive literature, as i'm not really educated in those fields, but i will say from what i read i think it's interesting that the two major thematic elements of claymore have been discussed, but not together.
The claymore being a hybrid is quite literally a story of both humanity and monsters (awakening), the only word i can think to adequately describe this would be duality, Clare being an example of a character both more human from the perspective of demonic ratio and more of a monster in that her donor material was considered by her own handler to be the strongest monster amongst claymores.
And similarly the org seeks to complete their research with two claymores working in tandem to fulfil both these roles, on at least two occasions so far.
Humanity alone is repeatedly underlined to be too inferior to the problems of yoma, and the claymores who abuse yoma powers, too often fall to their very own monstrous instincts, eg. Elena, Priscilla, Ophelia etc, regardless of how well intentioned or willfull, and sooner or later those monsters too fall in battle one way or the other. Thematically, in a world with monsters and humans it's the claymores that rule...
Hari Michiru
2008-12-24, 17:10
Humanity alone is repeatedly underlined to be too inferior to the problems of yoma, and the claymores who abuse yoma powers, too often fall to their very own monstrous instincts, eg. Elena, Priscilla, Ophelia etc, regardless of how well intentioned or willfull, and sooner or later those monsters too fall in battle one way or the other. Thematically, in a world with monsters and humans it's the claymores that rule...
And once humans discover something that is greater than them, they hate. Which explains why the Claymores are so feared and detested in the Claymore universe (or at least on the Island).
Isn't human nature despicable? :heh:
Hey, Dietrich wet her pants behind that tree, too much abissals around, the poor girl couldn't hold it :D
Helen's Apple
2008-12-24, 19:03
Cyclone, you hit on something that I feel very strongly about -- that is, in any work of literature or art, you will find insights into the nature, ideals, and mind of the author.
As a writer, I will be the first to say that to completely remove yourself from your works -- to separate out who you are and what has shaped you -- inevitably results in cliche and terribly dull writing. It's a very simple matter, of course; without passion, as a friend and I discussed just yesterday over some collaborative writing, we are no more than objects. It is that passion, our personal inspirations, which in the end allows us to create something truly remarkable, and something worth remembering.
It is easy to see that Yagi holds humanity, resolve, honor, and love in extremely high regard from the characters he has presented. Clare's own greatness is a testament to this on a level one has to step back from and look at a second time to appreciate.
She was a girl tortured by a demon, a plaything and a slave whose tribulations were so great that the only way she could endure was to shut off her humanity altogether. The pain and suffering were not something that a human mind could endure; thus, it receded, beaten back by the cruelty dealt it. And yet, the very same girl, who was saved by simple, blind chance through the sword of a woman who was also viewed as a monster, saw in the eyes of that woman the very same thing she felt.
She saw in silver eyes someone else whose own humanity had been crushed under pain and suffering. And as only a child can do, as only a child -- unjaded as adults become -- can resolve to do, she reached out to give those sad eyes the only comfort she could, the comfort of a trembling, battered, and scarred body.
Imagine, for a moment, the emotion that the child felt. To know that someone strong enough to free her would suffer just as she does! How could she not love that person, even if they were a monster, without condition? If she could even return the slightest bit to her, grant her just the slightest comfort...
But, she was stonewalled by the reaction that the adult woman had programmed into herself from cutting off her humanity. She was struck, and again, and again. But she wouldn't give up; no! No one should have to suffer like she did! So she kept going, even if the woman pushed her away, knowing that anything she would endure was nothing next to allowing the woman to remain that way. She followed her with a body unable to keep up, and yet somehow it did. She would not leave her alone, the woman with the sad eyes.
Her resolve was so strong that she would even risk her life, such as it was, by jumping off a cliff toward that woman.
And that woman, the one who had given in to the cruelty and viciousness, was humbled by such an act though she would not yet admit it to herself. She began to sense that there was something more in the little girl that clung to her so desperately. "I must be a savior to her," she told herself, believing that she was so very strong. After all, she could kill anyone. Seeing the little girl there, she let herself tell a white lie, because she felt compelled to take pity upon her. "It'd be my fault if she died here, wouldn't it?"
Oh, what an utterly bothersome girl. Bothersome because she was stirring up long-dead emotions.
They traveled. In time, their presences each restored something to the other. To the little girl, she found again the words she had lost, the joy of living -- simply being glad she was alive! -- and a woman she looked up to. And the woman found in the girl someone that could accept her for what she had become, someone who looked beyond the sword she carried, the armor she wore, and the burden she bore. She, too, had the joy of living restored to her.
They had become Clare and Teresa, and both loved the other.
But things were not so gentle, and the world is not perfect. What do you do, when the one you were granted life anew through dies? How do you move forward, knowing that out there lurks the thing responsible for taking away the only love that you had ever been shown?
How do you live on? She didn't know; but she would start by becoming one with the one she loved, so that she could live on in her. The little girl became a warrior, and she seeks to avenge the death of her twin goddess.
One thing is sure. That little girl will live on, because it proves that Teresa lived. She didn't need a one-armed half-human, half-demon warrior to tell her that, but she'd take her other arm so she could accomplish it.
Yes; I certainly think it goes without saying that Yagi writes about thoughts that are deeply personal to him, about things that he holds dear, and with a message that he hopes will be remembered. I know, in my writings, that I do.
Oh god, I knew it, you all are starting to phylosophyze again :upset:
:D
khryoleoz
2008-12-24, 21:20
?
We're having volumes of text expounding on the very fact that the human experience dictates the content of art? Like we didn't know this before?
I feel like saying, um, duh.
Well, I guess I just did.
And once humans discover something that is greater than them, they hate. Which explains why the Claymores are so feared and detested in the Claymore universe (or at least on the Island).
Isn't human nature despicable? :heh:
Yeah. And the one thing they hate most is the God of Israel. The notion of god is tolerable so long as he's the kind that's impotent and dead, and ain't the type to get in the way of the absoluteness of human autonomy. "Not thine will, but my will," we love to say.
anselfir
2008-12-24, 21:31
there are obvious political/social allegories referenced by the plot points discussed. a terrible industry of war perpetrated by shadowy figures is as familiar a trope as any. there is no need to make sense of it, because it probably does not make much sense. the fictional world has all the laws of physics and reason, supposedly, but it is fictional still. it does not necessarily have a coherent structure.
khryoleoz
2008-12-24, 21:40
Well, where things are incoherent is attributable to flaws in a writer's thinking. But in order for the writer's universe to work he must impose some objective framework by which that universe and how it operates can be measured and observed. He's got to set some ground rules. And being the god of that universe, he can break those rules at his pleasure. Now when he does, in order to minimize any negative impacts upon his reader, he has to effectively clue in the reader to how it all works and how he can break them. Where the writer backs himself against a wall because he built things on poorly conceived premises, well we can either abandon the title or dismiss the point(s) of incoherence and keep going.
I don't get why those 2 would even go into the city if they knew Isley is in there.
?
We're having volumes of text expounding on the very fact that the human experience dictates the content of art? Like we didn't know this before?
I feel like saying, um, duh.
Well, I guess I just did.
Of course, it happens every month. But I think the large phylosophyc post this month have been deeper than other's :D
Anyway, don't get irritated, i was just joking. It's always a pleasure to wait for spoilers reading so huge text volumes ^_^
khryoleoz
2008-12-24, 21:57
Oh no, I'm not irritated. I just BS every now and then...well, all the time actually.
Hari Michiru
2008-12-24, 23:08
Yeah. And the one thing they hate most is the God of Israel. The notion of god is tolerable so long as he's the kind that's impotent and dead, and ain't the type to get in the way of the absoluteness of human autonomy. "Not thine will, but my will," we love to say.
Isn't humanity great? :uhoh:
Well, I really don't like to read spoilers all the time, maybe a little.
I don't like cheese cake.
Sleepy Speculator
2008-12-25, 17:29
you forgot to put that in spoiler tags, who wants to take odds that the next chapter will show Miria.
irvinethearcher
2008-12-25, 21:10
You may have a point about Windcutter, since it is based on sword-drawing techniques (even if it is implausible fencing powers.)
But the wind cutter still remains limited in the fact the strikes can only come from one place (since it is a sword-drawing technique) and Irene's arm is the only arm that can use it. Too bad this isn't a Martial Arts manga, or someone would surely take advantage of that.
As for Miria competing with Irene's arm, we really don't know how Clare or Miria compare to Irene at this point, but I wouldn't be so quick to say that Miria couldn't match that arm with her current strength. (At least not without knowing where Miria/Clare stand in the powerscale)
Is it really only possible to use the windcutter if the sword is in his sheeth?
Or is a drawn sword useable too? I understood it that way that the fast drawing ability of the windcutter is an extra and it is usable when the sword is already drawn too. But i can be wrong about this.
As far as i remember in the fight against miria clare draw her sword again and again. I'm really unsure about this.
Okay, i checked the fight between clare and flora:
Flora seems to use it allways this way, drawing seems to be inevitable.
But during the fight against agatha clare doesn't seems to have to draw the sword to use the windcutter.
khryoleoz
2008-12-26, 01:37
I think it depends on how it is that the name Windcutter is actually defined as a sword technique. I haven't paid much attention to it because QuickSword was superior, and what need is there for me to look at an inferior technique. The only reason Clare picked it up was because they needed to suppress their yoma power, which prohibited QuickSword.
The only other sword skill related manga/anime I know is RK, so I can only make references to that. Battoujutsu is a specific sword style that relies upon the execution of a cut from the position of a sheathed sword. If the sword is not sheathed, you can't call it Battoujutsu. But what are the mechanics behind Battoujutsu that makes it effective? If the mechanics can be duplicated without the sword being sheathed, then you can render a different sword style with equal effectiveness as Battoujutsu by borrowing and applying the same or similar mechanics.
If the engine of Windcutter can be used independent of the sword's position, then it doesn't matter whether the sword is sheathed. But whether it can only be sheathed wouldn't matter also. Flora describes the Windcutter as similar to QuickSword, and that both enable an incredible number of consecutive attacks. And so what that it's slower than QuickSword? Miria's new mirage is slower too. There's a balance there. But again, rather than picturing a death match between these two, I'd be far more content to see them in provocative bunny suits. I'll wear my rabbit costume and referee them in the mud.
Helen's Apple
2008-12-26, 09:05
Fool's bet, Sleepy. :D
Khry, of course volumes of text are expounding. What else can we do? I'm watching other anime, and reading other manga, but it just isn't the same.
Bunny suits are overdone, though. I'd much rather see them in provocative Awakened forms! Something that reflects their personalities. Oh, I dunno, Miria could be in a nice, high-legged, hip-flaunting, blue-demon form, and tussling with Galatea in an abdomen-baring, see-through crystalline demon-armor! Maybe see Tabitha and Cynthia in demon-skin thongs, or Clare break out and actually develop some breasts in a betailed, reverse-knee, jeweled-wing form. And I just have to say, if Helen is 'just like the guys' when it comes to her not being able to resist the urge to Awaken, then I would love to be the one to cause her to 'cross her limit'. I'm sure she'd be the hottest of all, since she's so quick to enjoy the finer things in life. I have no doubt that she'd be a pure succubus, with sleek, reddish skin and stiletto-point heels, with scaly skin that gets smooth when she extends her limbs!
But I'm just an apple. :(
Fake spoiler is out... yeah !
& Eugene posted interesting photo in Chinese forum..
Thank you Eugene ! You are no. 1
zato_1one
2008-12-26, 12:05
Please, post it here! Put it in spoiler tag. I really don't want to go to Chinese site. The speed is very horrible for my connection. >_<
Sometimes I feel that this Claymore forum really looks more and more like a cult. :heh: Honestly, I never imagine before that it will have so many many deep discussions like this. :twitch:
Not that I don't like it this way though. :eyespin: May be because I'm also a cult member. :D
Sleepy Speculator
2008-12-26, 13:08
oh crud, mother warned me about internet cults..., and now it looks like i'm in one
well i'm glad i just speculate about it, means i get a free get out of jail pass, when the cops come to round everyone up for being otaku's.
tenken627
2008-12-26, 13:27
Fake spoiler is out... yeah !
& Eugene posted interesting photo in Chinese forum..
Thank you Eugene ! You are no. 1
I checked 2ch out and saw this one:
2008/12/23(火) 02:42:05 ID:Zrfjmyye0
次バレ
SCENE87
覚悟の盾
力なくうなだれるデネヴに対し、必死に呼びかけるヘレン
デネヴはかなりの重傷らしく、意識を失っている
潔く散れ、と呟き、イースレイが三又槍に変形させた右腕を振りかぶる
一方、ディートリヒは物陰から悪魔の様子を窺っていた
悪魔は妖気が読み取れないらしく、ディートリヒには気づいていない模様
辺りを見回したのち、尻尾を２,３度振り回し、辺りの木々をなぎ倒しながらどこかへ去って行っ た
ディートリヒはホッとしたのもつかの間、悪魔がヘレンの故郷に向かったことに気づき
そのことを知らせるため、恐怖に震える体に鞭打ち走りだす
そして、街では、ヘレンが死を覚悟し、イースレイが無情なる一撃を下そうとしたその瞬間
寸でのところでデネヴがイースレイの攻撃を受け止めていた
ヘレンが驚きながらよく見てみると、デネヴは妖力を解放し、瞬時に傷を修復していた
デネヴは呆けているヘレンに対し、自分が時間稼ぎをするからこの場から逃げろと叫ぶ
大した再生能力だ、と言いながらイースレイはデネヴを八つ裂きにする
デネヴも負けじと全ての傷を再生してみせる、しかし既に妖力解放の限界を超えていた
ヘレンが泣きながらデネヴを止めるが、デネヴは、最初の一撃を受けた時点でこうなることは覚悟 していた
時間稼ぎくらいはしてみせる、お前だけでも逃げてくれ、とヘレンに頼む
安心しろ２人まとめて仲良く消してやる、と迫るイースレイ
デネヴは妖魔化しながらも不敵に笑い、今ならあの馬鹿の気持ちが良く分かる、と呟き覚醒した
見開きで覚醒したデネヴの苦渋と喜びの混ざりあった狂喜の表情をドＵＰで写して終わり
Crappy Google Translate:
Barre:
SCENE87
Shields prepared
The droop DENEVU without power, a desperate call Helen
重傷RASHIKU DENEVU is considerable, is unconscious
散RE gracefully,呟KI and right arm was deformed振RIKABURU三又the spear ISUREI
Meanwhile, Dietrich had the look of the devil from the shadows窺っ
The devil is読MI取RENAIRASHIKU妖気, Dietrich is not aware of patterns
Then looked around, a few tail swing, and went off Thursday around somewhere with a NAGI倒SHI
Dietrich is also a fleeting moment of relief, realizing that the devil went to the home of Helen
Know about it, start running鞭打CHI body trembling with fear
And the city is prepared for Helen's death, that moment was a blow下SOU無情NARU the ISUREI
ISUREI the attacks have taken place in the size DENEVU
And often a surprise to see that Helen is the liberation of DENEVU妖力had to quickly repair the wound
Helen told the DENEVU呆KE, chickie shout from here from time to earn his
Ability to play a big deal, saying that the ISUREI八TSU裂KI the DENEVU
Going to play all the wounds of the DENEVU to be outdone, had already exceeded the limits of liberation but妖力
To stop the DENEVU tearful Helen DENEVU, at the time that this was the first blow was prepared
I was going to buy time, but you escape me, and ask Helen
Be assured I have two good friends off at once, and close ISUREI
DENEVU he smiled and妖魔audaciously, I know better now that the idiot, and waking呟KI
DE had a look of rapture wrenching mixture of joy and awakening in the spread of DENEVU a copy at the end UP
MisterJB
2008-12-26, 13:53
check this out
http://tieba.baidu.com/f?ct=&tn=&rn=&pn=&lm=&kw=claymore&rs2=0&myselectvalue=1&word=claymore&tb=on
edit: just click on the first result it will take you the colored version
Thank you guys! wonderful fake spoiler and colored chapter! so nice..
Off topic Question: Is there Weekly Shounen Jump this week ? I want to see OP bad.
check this out
http://tieba.baidu.com/f?kz=515178917
Very nice!:D
That fake spoiler was just:heh:
tunjee01
2008-12-26, 22:56
@Mister JB
Those colored pages are the best ever. They bring out the life in the facial expressions of the characters. It was superb.
zato_1one
2008-12-27, 01:34
The coloring in the last page was masterfully done!
Superb job! It will be really cool if they do the entire series.
MisterJB
2008-12-27, 08:55
I hope they color the one where Helen gets drunk
Another 90% sure fake spoiler:
806 ：作者の都合により名無しです：2008/12/27(土) 02:18:11 ID:WhlrzEm+0
クレイモア
ヘレンデネブがイースレイと戦っている間に
目と口を縫い付けたクレイモアの成れの果て風の
不気味な半裸の女達が街に続々と集結
(Something about eerie half naked women attacking Helen and Deneve I think)
BTW this colored version is just beautiful! I hope someone will scanlate it to english...:D
MisterJB
2008-12-27, 13:02
rukori: It could be true. The half-naked woman could be the demon. It would be so cool.
If I find more colored chapters I will be sure to post a link
Another 90% sure fake spoiler:
806 ：作者の都合により名無しです：2008/12/27(土) 02:18:11 ID:WhlrzEm+0
クレイモア
ヘレンデネブがイースレイと戦っている間に
目と口を縫い付けたクレイモアの成れの果て風の
不気味な半裸の女達が街に続々と集結
(Something about eerie half naked women attacking Helen and Deneve I think)
BTW this colored version is just beautiful! I hope someone will scanlate it to english...:D
check link below for the part of the discussion on 2ch and you might understand why i consider the spoiler as "might be very possible a real one"
ttp://changi.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/ymag/1216862451/777-833
the guy put spoiler of claymore on #806 also did the same for another 3 series ~~
anonymous on #833 also agree with #806,
despite all this, there are still tooooo few info from this spoiler...:eyespin:
in fact i prefer to read sth in lavona.....
zato_1one
2008-12-27, 13:29
May be that is Agatha's sister. :heh:
Must be something, but I don't think it's her sister.
wow that coloured version looks fabulous!
Looks like things has been pretty slow here hehe, here I have something for you guys to chew on XD.
Spoiler from TSS
Claymore Scene 87 《殲滅者の歸還》(return of the annihilated, or return of the annihilator, could mean both way I think)
1. No one has died (yet).
2. http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj161/jonovax/1-2.jpg
Void's sister has arrived :heh:
Thx for the pic and the spoiler, Jonova. But, żwho's the stitched-shut-eyed and mouth girl? żAlicia?
tunjee01
2008-12-30, 11:04
Don't know how real it is. I'll love to use either google or yahoo to translate but my pc is kinda very slow rite now.イースレイの回想编
ルシエラ戦后、身体を再生している现场をラキに见られてしまう
ラキがイースの正体に感づきプリシラを连れて逃げだそうとする
「プリシラも俺と同じ、プリシラは人间を食わねば生きられぬ存在なのだ」と教える
「プリシラは人として生まれたからには人として生きるべきだ」と主张するラキ
食欲旺盛なプリシラがそんな生き方を选ぶはずはないし、ラキと自分なら自分を选ぶはずだと考え
「プリシラに决めてもらおう」と提案する
しかしプリシラは先ほどのラキの言叶に感铭を受け、ラキとともに行くことを宣言する
ブチ切れたイースレイが约束を反故にして実力行使するもプリシラの本気パワーの前に完封される
ラキとプリシラが去った后、身体を再生させることも忘れ、ボロボロの体のまま彷徨っていた
そして现在に至り、デネヴとヘレンに止めの一撃を刺そうとしたその时
気配を感じ、振り向くと、既に大量の妖魔たちに取り囲まれていた
邪魔が入ったか、と呟き覚醒体に変化し、袭いかかるイースレイ
妖魔たちも全身から妖気を発しながら戦闘态势をとる
正面からぶつかり合うが、负伤していてもやはりイースレイの力は圧倒的で次々と妖魔を血祭りに あげる
ヘレンはこの混乱に乗じてデネヴを引きずって逃げようとしていたが
徐々にイースレイの体が削られていることに気づく
この妖魔たちは明らかにヘレンたちの知っていた以前の妖魔たちとは违った
「组织の方针転换は正しかったようだな……」重伤を负ったイースレイが呟き建物の屋上を见上げ ると
そこには例の悪魔が伫んでいた
「制御の効かない覚醒者ではなく、纯粋な戦闘用の妖魔の开発
それが组织の新たなる选択……我らこそが新たなる世代……」悪魔が呟きながらヘレンとデネヴに 目を配る
新世代戦士も知らされていなかったらしく、物阴から见闻きしていたディートリヒが惊愕していた
「古き者たちよ、役目を终え、消える时が来たのだ」
悪魔が建物の屋上から飞び降りざまにイースレイの首を掻き切って终了
MisterJB
2008-12-30, 12:43
Looks like things has been pretty slow here hehe, here I have something for you guys to chew on XD.
Spoiler from TSS
Claymore Scene 87 《殲滅者の歸還》(return of the annihilated, or return of the annihilator, could mean both way I think)
1. No one has died (yet).
2. http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj161/jonovax/1-2.jpg
Oh my God.
Yagi-san has exceeded himself this time.:D
What is that ...thing? I don't think it's an AB because the mouth is shutted
Looks like things has been pretty slow here hehe, here I have something for you guys to chew on XD.
Spoiler from TSS
Claymore Scene 87 《殲滅者の歸還》(return of the annihilated, or return of the annihilator, could mean both way I think)
1. No one has died (yet).
2. http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj161/jonovax/1-2.jpg
Oh no you guys don't think its Irene do you?!:uhoh:
MisterJB
2008-12-30, 12:51
Oh no you guys don't think its Irene do you?!:uhoh:
The chapter is called the return so it should be someone we have already seen.
But I keep my theory that it isn't an AB.
If I'm not wrong, all AB have mouths except Isley
The chapter is called the return so it should be someone we have already seen.
But I keep my theory that it isn't an AB.
If I'm not wrong, all AB have mouths except Isley
I was just thinking that it could be her because of the long strait hair and the clothes almost match. She could have awakened, but I would really like it to be a dragon kin or something instead of Irene.;)
MisterJB
2008-12-30, 12:54
We need more pages
BishounoTeresa
2008-12-30, 13:03
Looks like things has been pretty slow here hehe, here I have something for you guys to chew on XD.
Spoiler from TSS
Claymore Scene 87 《殲滅者の歸還》(return of the annihilated, or return of the annihilator, could mean both way I think)
1. No one has died (yet).
2. http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj161/jonovax/1-2.jpg
you should post more of this
MisterJB
2008-12-30, 13:09
Apparently it can feel Yoki because it found Dietrich
That isn't Irene her face was alot thinner and had sharper angles if anything she looks more like Galatea. The more I look at it the more it looks like N3 Audrey and I think Dietrich recognized her.
That isn't Irene her face was alot thinner and had sharper angles if anything she looks more like Galatea. The more I look at it the more it looks like N3 Audrey and I think Dietrich recognized her.
Oh yeah it could be Audrey, that would be bad news for the organization if she awakened.
MisterJB
2008-12-30, 13:21
But there would be no point in calling her demon
http://i433.photobucket.com/albums/qq56/Kragakern/a74e08d90b72773210df9b04_2.jpg
MisterJB
2008-12-30, 13:28
OH MY GOD
It's Miata.
Did you notice how she went for Dietrich's breasts?
It could be Miata or Miata like clones however it didn't look like it went for her breasts it look more like it was sniffing her like a hound would.
EDIT:I'am still sticking to my theory that it's Alicia or Beth:P
I don't think its Miata, she should be in Rabona. Unless something happened in Rabona and she awakened and ran off. Newhope is right though it does look like its sniffing like a hound would.
MisterJB
2008-12-30, 13:50
Look at the second square rigth under Dietrich's face.
She is sniffing alrigth but she is sniffing Dietrich's breast
I'm sticking with this theory
Mangaloid
2008-12-30, 13:54
It looks like its wearing a mask.
Look at the second square rigth under Dietrich's face.
She is sniffing alrigth but she is sniffing Dietrich's breast
I'm sticking with this theory
I think its sniffing her fear, kind of like in that movie Jeepers Creepers where the creeper looks for people who have the sent of fear on them. Or mabye its on the claymore's side because it looks to me like it leaves Dietrich alone.
MisterJB
2008-12-30, 13:58
I think its sniffing her fear, kind of like in that movie Jeepers Creepers where the creeper looks for people who have the sent of fear on them. Or mabye its on the claymore's side because it looks to me like it leaves Dietrich alone.
Oh I saw that movie.
Maybe it's looking for Clarice and she noticed that Dietrich wasn't Clarice
I'am starting to think it's like a homeing missle aiming straight for Isley it sensed Dietrich smells her to find out if it's her target and moves on when it finds out it's not.
So Isley overdid it with Irene which made her pass the limit.... That explained everything :D
MisterJB
2008-12-30, 14:07
So Isley overdid it with Irene which made her pass the limit.... That explained everything :D
:D he was too rough with her
If it is Irene I have a feeling it was probably Raphaela that made her awaken. When she went to kill her mabye she only inflicted a really bad wound on her and left her to die, but Irene wanted to live to see Clare again and forced herself to awaken.
I think it's more likely the orgs doing, I think it's either an experiment or a claymore thats pissed them off, they've then turned it into a cruise missile with a one track mind and would do anything to kill it's target.
EDIT:I shouldn't say do anything more like it doesn't care if anything got in it's way hence all the destroyed towns.
I think it's more likely the orgs doing, I think it's either an experiment or a claymore thats pissed them off, they've then turned it into a cruise missile with a one track mind and would do anything to kill it's target.
I like that possibility the most.
I like that possibility the most.
I like it too. I did a quick google translate of a previous alleged "spoiler" post, and I'll attempt to replace the messed up names with the ones we are familiar with. It does not yet make much sense to me.
Recollections of ISLEY编
Queen RUSHIERA war, would be a现场见raki has to play the body
连逃GEDASOU and the identity of the Priscilla感DZUKI to the raki Ys
"I am also the same as Priscilla, Priscilla is an unstoppable live there间食WANE the people" and teach
"Now that Priscilla is born to live as a" primary and raki to张
选the military should not live with such a voracious Priscilla, thinking that perhaps if his own department and the raki选
"I'll have to Priscilla决first" proposal and
But the sense of Priscilla铭raki in Kano earlier words, declaring that go along with raki
Before being shut out of the real power to Priscilla and the use of force to violate the ISLEY off by striking约束
Priscilla Queen left the raki and forget to revive the body, it was hovering in the tattered remains of the body
Kuo-kuang现在,刺SOU时that the coup was stopped by Helen and DENEVE
Like a sign, and turn around, we were surrounded by a large amount of already妖魔
Or interfere with the change in arousal呟KI the body, such ISLEY you袭
态势take the battle from the entire body while also sending a妖気妖魔
The jar from the front, power ISLEY负伤They also are following up the overwhelming血祭RI and the妖魔
Helen had to escape and to capitalize on confusion stemming from this DENEVE
Becoming aware that you have to cut the ISLEY body
This is who we妖魔妖魔before we knew Helen was clearly违
"If针転换组织it is right ..." and that the roof of the building up见呟KI the ISLEY负was a heavy伤
It was the devil of the cases I伫
"Instead of working in the control of arousal,开発of fighting for妖魔纯粋
The new选択组织it ... That's our new generation. "DENEVE and keep an eye on the devil呟KI and Helen
INAKATTARASHIKU been notified of the new-generation fighter, had a惊愕Dietrich见闻from the shore of阴
"The old, the role终Oh, it's gone it's时"
终了scratching your head off on one of ISLEY 飞down from the roof of the building and the devil
I like it too. I did a quick google translate of a previous alleged "spoiler" post, and I'll attempt to replace the messed up names with the ones we are familiar with. It does not yet make much sense to me.
Recollections of ISLEY编
Queen RUSHIERA war, would be a现场见raki has to play the body
连逃GEDASOU and the identity of the Priscilla感DZUKI to the raki Ys
"I am also the same as Priscilla, Priscilla is an unstoppable live there间食WANE the people" and teach
"Now that Priscilla is born to live as a" primary and raki to张
选the military should not live with such a voracious Priscilla, thinking that perhaps if his own department and the raki选
"I'll have to Priscilla决first" proposal and
But the sense of Priscilla铭raki in Kano earlier words, declaring that go along with raki
Before being shut out of the real power to Priscilla and the use of force to violate the ISLEY off by striking约束
Priscilla Queen left the raki and forget to revive the body, it was hovering in the tattered remains of the body
Kuo-kuang现在,刺SOU时that the coup was stopped by Helen and DENEVE
Like a sign, and turn around, we were surrounded by a large amount of already妖魔
Or interfere with the change in arousal呟KI the body, such ISLEY you袭
态势take the battle from the entire body while also sending a妖気妖魔
The jar from the front, power ISLEY负伤They also are following up the overwhelming血祭RI and the妖魔
Helen had to escape and to capitalize on confusion stemming from this DENEVE
Becoming aware that you have to cut the ISLEY body
This is who we妖魔妖魔before we knew Helen was clearly违
"If针転换组织it is right ..." and that the roof of the building up见呟KI the ISLEY负was a heavy伤
It was the devil of the cases I伫
"Instead of working in the control of arousal,开発of fighting for妖魔纯粋
The new选択组织it ... That's our new generation. "DENEVE and keep an eye on the devil呟KI and Helen
INAKATTARASHIKU been notified of the new-generation fighter, had a惊愕Dietrich见闻from the shore of阴
"The old, the role终Oh, it's gone it's时"
终了scratching your head off on one of ISLEY 飞down from the roof of the building and the devil
I did not understand that at all. Only thing I noticed was that Helen escaped?
revan5 spoiler tag please
Done. Now go yell at Hell 88, and for goodness sakes, is that really spoiler tag worthy? I can barely make anything out of it. :confused:
So much action, don't know about the girl, but she is really something if she can hold Dietrich back like that.:eyebrow::twitch::)
MisterJB
2008-12-30, 14:56
Done. Now go yell at Hell 88, and for goodness sakes, is that really spoiler tag worthy? I can barely make anything out of it. :confused:
I wasn't yelling at you man. Take it easy
http://i433.photobucket.com/albums/qq56/Kragakern/claymore_scene087_014.jpg
http://i433.photobucket.com/albums/qq56/Kragakern/claymore_scene087_014.jpg
Lol that's going to be a rather short fight:P
Ouch! Is that who I think it is?:eyebrow::confused::twitch:
Ouch! Is that who I think it is?:eyebrow::confused::twitch:
If your thinking that it's claire it's not it's Helen you can tell from the symbol on her sword.
Hari Michiru
2008-12-30, 15:10
Clare's haircut is a bit more straight on the ends.
http://i433.photobucket.com/albums/qq56/Kragakern/claymore_scene087_014.jpg
Yeah .. Thank you !
BTW how come Isley has only 1 leg ??
I hope Helen did that.
MisterJB
2008-12-30, 15:17
http://i433.photobucket.com/albums/qq56/Kragakern/claymore_scene087_014.jpg
ok...
is Helen trying to get killed or what?
I hope the Miata-claymore-symbiote-Alien-thing saves her
ok...
is Helen trying to get killed or what?
I hope the Miata-claymore-symbiote-Alien-thing saves her
What she supposed to do her best friend is either dead or severely injured and faceing an opponent she more than likely can't out run, she's like a cornered rat with only one option fight or die.
MisterJB
2008-12-30, 15:35
What she supposed to do her best friend is either dead or severely injured and faceing an opponent she more than likely can't out run, she's like a cornered rat with only one option fight or die.
talk with him.
it's not like he is a mindless Yoma, she maybe could talk her way out of that
talk with him.
it's not like he is a mindless Yoma, she maybe could talk her way out of that
More than likely wouldn't work he's more than likely in the same postion she is cornered and desperate lashing out in fustration or he may think they have something to do with whatever that thing out side is.
MisterJB
2008-12-30, 15:50
More than likely wouldn't work he's more than likely in the same postion she is cornered and desperate lashing out in fustration or he may think they have something to do with whatever that thing out side is.
Even so, if a mousey finds a cat, the mousey won't figth against the cat
If you found a lion, I bet you wouldn't figth with him
I would love to see Helen talking her way out of that. It could be the start of something great...
Even so, if a mousey finds a cat, the mousey won't figth against the cat
If you found a lion, I bet you wouldn't figth with him
I would love to see Helen talking her way out of that. It could be the start of something great...
You'll be surprised at just how strong a cornered animal can be, and yes I have seen mice fight back against cat's and win it may not kill or hurt the cat but it does enough to get away.
http://i433.photobucket.com/albums/qq56/Kragakern/claymore_scene087_014.jpg
I'm afraid to find out what happens next.:(
Hari Michiru
2008-12-30, 16:38
I'm afraid to find out what happens next.:(
Unless Helen recieves a shounen power up, I don't know how she's going to win. Or maybe some mysterious figure from the past will jump in and save her? :uhoh:
Unless Helen recieves a shounen power up, I don't know how she's going to win. Or maybe some mysterious figure from the past will jump in and save her? :uhoh:
I think that demon is going to save her.
Hari Michiru
2008-12-30, 16:51
I think that demon is going to save her.
I doubt it though, because wasn't the single digit girl scared of it?
I doubt it though, because wasn't the single digit girl scared of it?
Her name is Dietrich, and it looks like the demon walks past her after sniffing her or whatever to go to the village.
Hari Michiru
2008-12-30, 16:53
Her name is Dietrich, and it looks like the demon walks past her after sniffing her or whatever to go to the village.
Sniffing? Reminds me of Miata. :heh:
Sniffing? Reminds me of Miata. :heh:
We were all talking about that earlier, it might be Miata awakened. I think something happened in Rabona and Miata awakened and ran away.
MisterJB
2008-12-30, 16:57
Sniffing? Reminds me of Miata. :heh:
Does Miata sniffs? We tougth it were her because the hair and because she went for Dietrich's breasts
Does Miata sniffs? We tougth it were her because the hair and because she went for Dietrich's breasts
Well if you noticed she is kind of standing like Miata to. You know when Miata firsts see's Clarice? She is standing kind of like that.
MisterJB
2008-12-30, 17:00
The hair looks a little like Yuma tough:heh:
But in my opinion it's Miata. What happened in Rabona?
But it's Miata. What happened in Rabona?
We don't know if its Miata yet, all this is speculation. Like some people think it could be Irene and some people think its Audrey. Someone said Galatea, right now its all speculation.
MisterJB
2008-12-30, 17:05
I think it's Miata. I doubt we are even going to find out in this chapter, we probrably gonna have to wait until February
I think it's Miata. I doubt we are even going to find out in this chapter, we probrably gonna have to wait until February
I don't think its Miata, there really is no reason for her to have awakened we would have known because someone would have felt her power, because afterall she does have the power to beat an abyssal one. I bet she is safe and sound in Rabona.
I think it's Miata. I doubt we are even going to find out in this chapter, we probrably gonna have to wait until February
Miata, to our knowledge, does not "sniff" Clarice, but does gets simulated nursing from her. Plus the timeline of this "Demon" being around for several years and possibly destroying towns seems to rule out Miata as well. There is still the possibility this is a dragonkin, but it now seems very low.
Perhaps the Organization has lost either Beth or Alicia. Not to awakening mind you, but more to a trance-like, insane state caused by their unique status. Perhaps fearing what would happen if they should have to deal with them actually awakening, they've turned the survivor into an Isley-hunting machine, thus providing them a use for an otherwise unstable tool in their arsenal.
Perhaps this is why Rubel is so confident of the Organization's demise. If they're missing of the the twins, it'll make the fight far more even between them and their enemies (Ghosts, Riful, etc).
NobodyMan
2008-12-30, 17:20
So that's what the Demon looks like huh? Interesting.
I'm still not sure what the heck it is though. I'm more open for it to be something other than a DoD now, but I'll still say it is one. I just don't think they would refer to it as "Demon" if it was just a powerful AB. It's a weaker argument now, but I'll still say it's a DoD, or some special kind of AB abomination created by the org (more for the former than the latter).
Whatever it is, I think it's going to kick some ass. :D
If it is one of the twins it more than likely means the org has reached the point where the research into the twins is no longer useful to them which mean they will have something else up there sleaves, so if the twins are no longer useful the org do what they all ways do send it to fight an enemy and hope they kill each other.
MisterJB
2008-12-30, 17:30
If its an Ab shouldn't it have a mouth?
I mean to eat human' guts
So that's what the Demon looks like huh? Interesting.
I'm still not sure what the heck it is though. I'm more open for it to be something other than a DoD now, but I'll still say it is one. I just don't think they would refer to it as "Demon" if it was just a powerful AB. It's a weaker argument now, but I'll still say it's a DoD, or some special kind of AB abomination created by the org (more for the former than the latter).
Whatever it is, I think it's going to kick some ass. :D
I always said that the DND showing up like that just doesn't make any sense.
And why wouldn't an AB be called a demon normal ABs don't go round wipeing towns out most just stay under cover with only the amount of people dissappering been the only clue that it's a AB instead of a normal yoma.
MisterJB
2008-12-30, 17:46
I always said that the DND showing up like that just doesn't make any sense.
And why wouldn't an AB be called a demon normal ABs don't go round wipeing towns out most just stay under cover with only the amount of people dissappering been the only clue that it's a AB instead of a normal yoma.
It migth a AB psychopath
Hari Michiru
2008-12-30, 17:48
It migth a AB psychopath
Aren't most AB's psychopaths? :uhoh:
If its an Ab shouldn't it have a mouth?
I mean to eat human' guts
Easley doesn't have a mouth in his awakened form, or at least we can't see it. Mabye this one has it in its human form.
MisterJB
2008-12-30, 17:52
Aren't most AB's psychopaths? :uhoh:
Not really. By psychopath I meant that it could be an AB that couldn't control itself and started destroying everything in the South.
Fits Miata's personality to me...
Aren't most AB's psychopaths? :uhoh:
Most aren't there quite cunning they know if they draw to much attention to them selfs could mean there life is forfeit, only the Abyssals and strong ABs like Rigardo could go around destorying towns impunity.
Supermutant
2008-12-30, 19:00
Looking at the image, it looks to me as if Isely (It does really look like him what with the 'bow' arm and the rags) still has both legs, and one is just hidden by the perspective. You can still see the foot though.
Sleepy Speculator
2008-12-30, 19:08
Sleepies, rather strange take on all this is that he rather hopes that this isn't Ophelia, i said once before that the eye looked like Ophelia's, would explained why there is some level of deformity.
chibamonster
2008-12-30, 19:15
Something is very strange about the demon compared to what we saw in 86. In the only page we see of the demon from 86 we see that it has opened eyes and an opened mouth. This demon thing is either changing form or it is not alone. Also no long hair showing.
irvinethearcher
2008-12-30, 19:24
I find it very difficult to conclude anything from the material we have so far except that isley and helen are engaged in battle against each other and there was probably not much talking between those two. It looks like helen tries to hide behind walls and buildings - a very sane tactic against an AO. I hope that helen can stand her ground at least for a short time against isley until this demon arrives and she can run away with deneve.
The conclusion I am drawing is that it may be time for an 87 thread...
irvinethearcher
2008-12-30, 19:29
That's a good one :heh:
I have an idea. The demon looks a bit like a claymore before gradually awakening. I think especially about clare's first friend in the episode with the black card.
Helen's Apple
2008-12-30, 20:01
Go go go, Helen! Beat his ass! ^_^
And you know, I'll say it again, that's Miata's mother. :p She was sniffing Dietrich's breast to see if there was any remnant of Miata's scent. But, there's a problem. I agree with Chiba -- the silhouette of the demon and what we see there are two different entities. I'll wager two bites of myself that it's Irene.
I've just seen some of the chapter and all I can say is lol.
They look like experimental claymores to me.
http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/3673/claymore087tsskc2.jpg
Can you pm me the link? :)
I've just seen some of the chapter and all I can say is lol.
They look like experimental claymores to me.
http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/3673/claymore087tsskc2.jpg
This is kind of scary....
Can you PM me the link to? I can't seem to find any of the scans this month.
NobodyMan
2008-12-30, 20:44
This is kind of scary....
Can you PM me the link to? I can't seem to find any of the scans this month.Yeah, it's pretty haunting. :uhoh:
Blows my speculation out of the water, and I love it. :D
A PM for me three please. :heh:
RocktheStar
2008-12-30, 20:44
Could you pm me the link too please, thanks!
I have a feeling we will be waiting a while for our PM's...
yezhanquan
2008-12-30, 21:06
Eyes and mouth sewn shut: So, I presume that these ladies are blind, dumb and deaf, as a bonus.
Telepathy is one way to control them, if they can indeed be controlled. Looks like someone has finally abandoned all pretence and treat their subjects as living weapons. Seems that the war is finally escalating.
Mangaloid
2008-12-30, 21:15
We thought Helen and Deneve were in trouble before with the Isley situation but now they're completely screwed. They lied earlier about being part of a secret warrior program and now one does actually exist and there out for blood. They don't take kindly to false members.
yezhanquan
2008-12-30, 21:17
Somehow, these ladies look undead to me, barely alive at best. For them to possess enough "firepower"....
We need more images, really.
You all know what I just realized? Mabye they are all failed experiments, not like Clarice but like really bad failed experiments. Mabye the org doesn't kill them if they are that bad of a failure, and they just let them go out into the wild. Wow there are really to many things happening in the story right now. Almost makes me forget what the objective is.:heh:
yezhanquan
2008-12-30, 21:19
But to sew the eyes and mouths shut doesn't quite make sense. If they were to be silenced, why the eyes?
Also, one of them seems to have sitches on her arm, which brings back to my observation of "undead/barely alive". I'm going for the former if they are supposed to be functional.
But to sew the eyes and mouths shut doesn't quite make sense. If they were to be silenced, why the eyes?
Mabye sew the mouth shut so they can't tell anyone, and mabye to sew the eyes shut so that they do not know where they are going. Who knows mabye they're ears have been closed up to. Kind of like hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil.
yezhanquan
2008-12-30, 21:27
Well, make a person dumb for some time, and chances are (s)he will go deaf.
As to not being able to see where they're going, it doesn't quite suit the Org's MO. They want things to get done. Even with setbacks, they have an agenda. This piece of the jigsaw is kinda hard to fit.
chibamonster
2008-12-30, 21:27
WHAAA~?!!? Well there do seem to be many of them. Failed creations? The organization makes them from time to time... and lets them become claymores occasionally... Who was the demon in the last chapter then who had eyes and an opened mouth? Some mastermind that makes these women?
Oh and link pm if anyone would be so kind :D
Sorry about the pm but I got the pages from a friend by email.
But to sew the eyes and mouths shut doesn't quite make sense. If they were to be silenced, why the eyes?
Probably for the same reason Galatea blinded herself deny yourself on one sense which sharpens your other senses.
yezhanquan
2008-12-30, 21:30
@Chiba: Quite possible. These bunch definitely needs a central command, given that they most probably can't detect anything other than their specified targets.
@Newhope: If that is the case, then the central command has a more important job. Also, the discussion was on if these ladies were rejects, and not being actively used. I mean, if you want to throw away something, you don't sew things shut unless there's a purpose.
Sorry about the pm but I got the pages from a friend by email.
Alright everyone I'll go back up on the search! The site I usually get them from should have them sometime tomorrow so I'm hoping I can find the scans then!:D
yezhanquan
2008-12-30, 21:39
@hell88: Don't sweat it. It's New Year's Eve morning in Asia. It could be slightly delayed.
Alright everyone I'll go back up on the search! The site I usually get them from should have them sometime tomorrow so I'm hoping I can find the scans then!:D
I've been trying to upload the others but thats the only one that will the others are corrupting for some reason.
@hell88: Don't sweat it. It's New Year's Eve morning in Asia. It could be slightly delayed.
Hey its still yesterday here.:heh: I guess I'll find out tomorrow then.:p
@Newhope: Mabye you could upload them on some image hosting site and do it that way?
yezhanquan
2008-12-30, 21:42
I've been trying to upload the others but thats the only one that will the others are corrupting for some reason.
How about sending them through email? If it's ok with you, those who want a preview can ask for the zip file and try to get it uploaded.
I've just seen some of the chapter and all I can say is lol.
They look like experimental claymores to me.
http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/3673/claymore087tsskc2.jpg
Oh boy, now the sniffing makes more sense. Dietrich is not in trouble because she is only a Claymore, and thus, while smelling different than a human, does not attract their real attention. Helen and Deneve, as partially-awakened Beings on the other hand, are going to attract just as much attention as Isley.
Now it makes sense. Here goes Theory #1:
The Organization has been experimenting around with Claymores with enhanced senses by having a large group of them (or several, who knows?) go after Isley and attempt to kill him. There may be more than one of these groups, and chances are, they have more than one way to track him down.
His reaction to Helen/Deneve in this regard is less surprising, since he assumed they were YET ANOTHER SET of experimental claymores (Yoki suppressing ones) sent out to test him and/or kill him. He'll know otherwise (probably) when both sides are attacked by these "Demons". Or at least he should, though no doubt his misconception of Helen/Deneve as yet another pair of experimental Claymores will be hard to hit back at.
Let's consider the ways they might seem experimental:
They have:
100% youki suppression abilities
Limb extension abilities
unique fighting styles (drill sword for instance and double swordfighting)
are able to go over their limits at will and return
In Deneve's case: extraordinary healing abilities
The question is, if both sides come under attack, will this draw Miria and everyone in Rabona into the conflict?
An even better question might be: "If these are in fact experimental claymores sent to kill Isley than home in on only the scent of Awakened Beings, will their handlers, who may be close by, notice when they also go after Helen/Deneve?"
yezhanquan
2008-12-30, 21:55
@revan5: If your speculation is correct, then the Org has outdone themselves, with human-like dogs. Heck, even real dogs are better treated than these girls.
tunjee01
2008-12-30, 21:56
Claymores in the future. Battle in the north 500yrs later
http://hiphotos.baidu.com/%C9%BD%D4%F4%CD%C5%D5%FE%CE%AF/mpic/item/94fa6dd6f948bd3107088bac.jpg
Looks like they are just like homing missles then. They are only after Easley by the looks of it and are only looking for his yoki. So they are not after any other yoki, I wonder how they were made to be like that?
BTW that pic does not show.
yezhanquan
2008-12-30, 22:02
@hell88: Homing missiles? I think they're more like dogs being held on leashes.
@hell88: It's a spoof pic.
Wait, which pic is a spoof pic? I think I'm going slowly insane based on not knowing!:twitch::eyespin::heh: Let me guess, the battle in the north 500 years later one? I can't see it, though it sounds funny.
Now I really want to see it...
yezhanquan
2008-12-30, 22:06
There, it's showing. Claymores vs. a modern army. Funny: I personally always thought of them as organic versions of cyborgs.
yezhanquan
2008-12-30, 22:14
Anyway, back to Isley. In 86, he just gives me the impression of being scared out of his socks, that he doesn't bother being nice like in the past. And I doubt that it's the girls that are behind it.
Anyway, back to Isley. In 86, he just gives me the impression of being scared out of his socks, that he doesn't bother being nice like in the past. And I doubt that it's the girls that are behind it.
He was probably scared that Deneve/Helen were part of yet another, even more terrifying team out to kill him than the previous. Let's face it, half-awakened, youki suppressing, single digit level fighters in significant numbers would be an experimental team even Isley would have reason to fear.
He'll meet the commander of the "experimental team" if things keep going as badly as they are right now. Can't wait to see Miria's reaction to Helen/Deneve getting embroiled in a big fight.
Just a thought, but if these girls are tracking scent, is it possible they tracked Helen/Deneve's scents, and not Isley's? Thus in some ways they were the accidental advance scouts for these "Demons", leading them right to their top target!
Negativedark
2008-12-30, 22:49
Ahhhh! Zombies! Anyways this looks fascinating. It'll be interesting to see just how this chapter goes. Can't wait.
yezhanquan
2008-12-30, 22:51
I'm still leaning towards one insanely strong character, rather than a pack of above-average fighters. In Claymore, numbers rarely count, if my memory serves me right. I think Isley's afraid of the "hunter", not so much the "dogs".
http://hiphotos.baidu.com/%E6%A7%BC%BA%D0%A1%CD%FB/pic/item/a141e13552c593a9d0a2d30f.jpg
Lulz wut?
Slick_rick
2008-12-30, 22:59
http://hiphotos.baidu.com/%E6%A7%BC%BA%D0%A1%CD%FB/pic/item/a141e13552c593a9d0a2d30f.jpg
Lulz wut?
:heh: That's someone's sig on the board...:heh:
or someone showing a parody to the beast appearing in this chapter.
Just came across those I don't know if there real or not.
http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/1553/miatacl5.jpghttp://img258.imageshack.us/img258/4247/clarefinal11jf0.jpg
khryoleoz
2008-12-30, 23:05
He was probably scared that Deneve/Helen were part of yet another, even more terrifying team out to kill him than the previous. Let's face it, half-awakened, youki suppressing, single digit level fighters in significant numbers would be an experimental team even Isley would have reason to fear.
I don't see why he would care about any of those attributes of Helen or Deneve. In the history of the org there had only been three known cases where the number one of a generation had awakened. Isley is fully aware of the fact that not only is he counted among them, but that he was the prototype.
Unless there was any reason to believe that the case with Priscilla is an average situation amongst warriors, it don't mean jack that he meets stealthy semi-awakened warriors...that is unless her name is Clare. Well, not only that her name is Clare, but such also that the one named Clare is the inheritor of the greatest power that the Org and DOD or what have you will ever know.
khryoleoz
2008-12-30, 23:08
@Newhope
Gotta be fake. Anecdotally at least, Maita and Clare are not the same height. The ranking of S upon Clare's Mental attribute is also suspect...unless "S" stands for "Suspect" rather than "Special".
yezhanquan
2008-12-30, 23:13
I'm now quite curious about the "hunter". Somehow, images of a gruff, middle-aged hunter keep appearing in my head.
tunjee01
2008-12-30, 23:16
When you said hunter, I just keep imagining Duff sending his female zombie hounds.
chibamonster
2008-12-30, 23:16
Yeah, those 2 "stat pages" are fan made it looks like. Cut and pasted, but still a bit fun :D. I am really curious what is going on in this next chapter. Stuff after the time skip has been crazy; Raciella and now this. Uwa~h!
Dunno...looks like captured Claymores that were 'modded' by the "Demon". Even #8 Dietrich doesn't know who is the demon or what happened in the South...only not to proceed any further. Seems a bit strange if a Claymore in a group would say that or be scared. To avoid an area would be something the Org would have to sanction and approve. If it was Isley, wouldn't they just call him an AO? Audrey and Rachel called Riful an AO and hold top 5 ranks.
In any case, Yagi springs another surprise on Claymore readers.
Got another one up.
Here's some Helen pawnage.
http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/9805/51881981200812311254280ot9.jpghttp://img525.imageshack.us/img525/1614/51881981200812311255090cn7.jpg
new chapter is out on TSS yay.
Quick facts:
Short Chapter, only 25pages =/. EDIT: Well actually, more like 20, 5 pages are ads =(.
There is more than 1 demons, Dietrich encountered atleast 4~5 of them, but they seems to be unable to see anything.
Helen is holding her own quite well against Isley, in fact she has injured Isley several times while herself remain unhammed. But all the wounds she managed to deal were quickly healed by Isley, the fight looks hopeless.
Devene came back just in time to save Helen from Isley's attack, her wound has been completed healed. Devene then asked Helen to run while she hold Isley off because now that she has released her yoki to heal, she can no longer hide.
Helen then releases her yoki and said:"If it is going to end here, atleast we are together."
The chapter ends with the scene of demons appoarching the town Helen/Deneve are fighting Isley with.
If helen alone can do that to an Abyssal imagine what all the ghosts fighting together could do, I don't even think it's impossable for Claire and Miria to tag team or even solo an Abyssal now.
Who's going to place bets that Claire goes one on one with Riful in the next 10 chapters:P
Got another one up.
Here's some Helen pawnage.
http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/9805/51881981200812311254280ot9.jpghttp://img525.imageshack.us/img525/1614/51881981200812311255090cn7.jpg
If they can just last until Miria/reinforcements show up, they'll be set when fighting with this kind of skill. That's a big "IF" when fighting an Abyssal One even stronger than Riful though.
My guess is Miria is skilled enough to give even Isley a real run for his money, particularly considering she fights as part of a team and not alone like most prior No 1s were accustomed to.
I'm still leaning towards one insanely strong character, rather than a pack of above-average fighters. In Claymore, numbers rarely count, if my memory serves me right. I think Isley's afraid of the "hunter", not so much the "dogs".
So then the theory that this "Demon" is in fact something other than these truly messed up claymore girls.
With that thought, I'd like to start up:
Theory #2
The blind and 'dumb' girls are in fact the hunting pack, as it were, of something Isley fears. He may have assumed Helen/Deneve were in fact helping to "hunt" him, which is why he reacted the way he did. Perhaps these girls' master is the Organization (which I'm beginning to doubt, as the Organization seems not the type to waste perfectly good claymores in this manner when they've had Claymores like Miata that can do it just fine (you know there's probably more than one Claymore like Miata)).
In this theory, a possible alternative "alpha dog" of the pack might very well be a Dragonkin, which might explain why we could see the figure had open eyes at the end of chapter 86. Essentially the girls we are seeing are not "Demons", just its pets. That's why we saw the one figure in relief at the end of chapter 86 with eyes and fully functioning mouth. It is hunting using former Claymores it has captured in the South (thus why Dietrich tells Helen/Deneve not to go further south), and by fouling up their other senses, has allowed it to track down its prey (Abyssal One Isley/Awakened Beings).
Unfortunately for Helen/Deneve, their scents are an exact match for that of Awakened Beings, which will probably lead them to be attacked as well, if there are more than one of these "Demons".
Let's not jump ahead of ourselves here...everyone at first assumed the Demons were these girls. Yagi may just be baiting us into complacency until he reveals the big kahuna next chapter.
P.S.-Could someone pm me the site or url where they found these images or the chinese raws?
I like a linky too please
Well that was really cool.
Lot's of fan service too - even Deneve doesn't get left out totally... Yagi's so nice to us... :D
Glad Claymore made the cover - makes me look forward to my issue even more, but waiting to see what happens with the demons in town is going to tough.
Gangsta Spanksta
2008-12-31, 01:28
Waah! ;) ain't on baidu like usual, yet. :) These chapters with Helen and Deneve have been cool
Ancient Soul
2008-12-31, 01:40
Those zombie-girls are not CLAYMORES even if they look like!
They don't have any STIGMA thus no youma implants...unless...
1) they are AB!
2) they have youma implanted in their heads!
Maybe they are the "claymore version" of The ORG enemy!!!...Rubel was spying remember?
Awakened
2008-12-31, 01:47
can I get a link please?:bow:
Those zombie-girls are not CLAYMORES even if they look like!
They don't have any STIGMA thus no youma implants...unless...
1) they are AB!
2) they have youma implanted in their heads!
Maybe they are the "claymore version" of The ORG enemy!!!...Rubel was spying remember?
They sure are eerily odd, whatever they actually are (AB would be a hell of an interesting answer, since that would mean whatever is ordering them around is INSANELY powerful to control them like dogs). I've been thinking about this some more, and it hardly makes sense for the Organization to be doing this.
Consider: they explicitly warn their forces to keep their distance, and moreover, why would they be hunting down Isley at a time when they should be gathering all their forces centrally, since they are faced with multiple threats to their very existence?
My guess is Rube's side in the mainland war has more than one card up its sleeve in taking down the Organization, starting with finding themselves a nice place to set up a power base (the South).
@Awakened
-I've been begging awhile, but it seems those images were e-mailed to those posting prior, thus why no one is pming anyone a link. I still would like a link when it becomes available too though.
They sure are eerily odd, whatever they actually are (AB would be a hell of an interesting answer, since that would mean whatever is ordering them around is INSANELY powerful to control them like dogs). I've been thinking about this some more, and it hardly makes sense for the Organization to be doing this.
Consider: they explicitly warn their forces to keep their distance, and moreover, why would they be hunting down Isley at a time when they should be gathering all their forces centrally, since they are faced with multiple threats to their very existence?
My guess is Rube's side in the mainland war has more than one card up its sleeve in taking down the Organization, starting with finding themselves a nice place to set up a power base (the South).
yet when they found Dietrich, they did not attack her
yezhanquan
2008-12-31, 01:57
My guess is that the hunter/central command on the field judged her to be insignificant, understanable if (s)he's good enough to put some fear into Isley.
Haven't seen the chapter, but maybe what the hunter possess is the ability to dramatically slow down the rate at which ABs heal, or to inflict damage of magnitudes beyond what they can handle.
They sure are eerily odd, whatever they actually are (AB would be a hell of an interesting answer, since that would mean whatever is ordering them around is INSANELY powerful to control them like dogs). I've been thinking about this some more, and it hardly makes sense for the Organization to be doing this.
Consider: they explicitly warn their forces to keep their distance, and moreover, why would they be hunting down Isley at a time when they should be gathering all their forces centrally, since they are faced with multiple threats to their very existence?
My guess is Rube's side in the mainland war has more than one card up its sleeve in taking down the Organization, starting with finding themselves a nice place to set up a power base (the South).
As far the org knows they only have 2 major threats Riful and Isley they don't really see the ghosts as a threat yet, and if the DND where moveing in the south the org would know about it and up roots and go somewhere else destorying years of covert work by Rubul
Gangsta Spanksta
2008-12-31, 01:58
Haven't seen the chapter yet, but I wonder if Isley and the Girls will have to eventually team up in order to survive.
chibamonster
2008-12-31, 01:58
Wow really short chapter. Heh, fighting Isley in his human form is one thing... Fighting him in his ab form is another. We'll get the lowdown soon enough... hopefully.
yet when they found Dietrich, they did not attack her
I don't think they're after Dietrich. She is not their target, it's Isley and whatever Awakened is in the area with him. Let me put it this way, Dietrich is an inconsequential person to them, since she is not the scent they are seeking, and no doubt poses little threat regardless.
When setting up shop, you force out an opposing "King", and unless they are a threat, deal later with the peons. Helen/Deneve are close enough to both being Awakened Beings and Isley (physically) to make this upcoming chapter a real bizarre three-way fight.
This is either the Organization attempting to get rid of Isley (still a good possibility) or its the Dragonkin/Organization's Enemies attempting to rid the South of an Abyssal One that is in their way. We'll see shortly which side it is anyways, though it does keep everyone anxious as to who is pulling the strings, no?
yezhanquan
2008-12-31, 02:02
My guess is that Rubel's cover has been blown, and the Org is using him to feed fake information. However, Rubel may simply be a double agent, playing the two sides against each other.
I've been yelling/screaming for the Chessmaster/Puppet master to come out since, I don't know, after the time skip? It's about time.
I don't think they're after Dietrich. She is not their target, it's Isley and whatever Awakened is in the area with him. Let me put it this way, Dietrich is an inconsequential person to them, since she is not the scent they are seeking, and no doubt poses little threat regardless.
When setting up shop, you force out an opposing "King", and unless they are a threat, deal later with the peons. Helen/Deneve are close enough to both being Awakened Beings and Isley (physically) to make this upcoming chapter a real bizarre three-way fight.
This is either the Organization attempting to get rid of Isley (still a good possibility) or its the Dragonkin/Organization's Enemies attempting to rid the South of an Abyssal One that is in their way. We'll see shortly which side it is anyways, though it does keep everyone anxious as to who is pulling the strings, no?
we are led to believe these zombies wiped out most of the south. The only person we know they have spared so far is a member of the Organization - Detriech. Add to that the fact they are all female and look like dead Claymores...
As far the org knows they only have 2 major threats Riful and Isley they don't really see the ghosts as a threat yet, and if the DND where moveing in the south the org would know about it and up roots and go somewhere else destorying years of covert work by Rubul
The Ghosts aren't a threat? Well you see Newhope, when you don't know what a new enemy is capable of and have no idea as to their strength, you start to get a tad paranoid. It is the one thing that helped Stalin maintain power all those years. He was ALWAYS on his guard for threats to his rule, as I'm sure the Org is.
They do or will shortly know several things about the Ghosts:
They are single digit level fighters (stealing Nos 3 & 5 from Riful took quite a bit of skill, and thus they already are a threat to their No 2 at least).
They have so far been utterly undetectable and have attacked Organization members when presented the chance (Yuma sword smackdown on No 14 anyone?).
They also know there is at least 4 of them, and four single digit level fighters are a real danger, since they know some of them may be strong enough to pose a real challenge for an Awakened No 1 (namely Riful).
They also have no idea, aside from the West, where they might be. This means, combined with the Ghosts stealthy nature, that they could possibly strike anywhere with little prior warning. Surprise in warfare, as they say, is often half the battle. No shock then that the Organization would hate surprises like the Ghosts. They want to believe the Ghosts aren't a threat...but they most certainly are a threat, and one that had better be dealt with soon before they re-unify their forces.
At the same time the Organization has lost their future No 1 prospect and their "Eye", No 6 Renee, who provided them their island-wide surveillance. With both gone now and one probably an ally of the Ghosts, if they aren't panicking shortly I would be amazed. If losing Nos 4 and 6 doesn't get them thinking hard, losing No 8 as well to the Ghosts will probably seal the panic spreading at their headquarters.
The Ghosts also present a psychological threat to the Organization. When Clarice was told to take out Galatea, she was told that the misery of their solitude was why it would be a blessing to kill deserters. What happens when their forces come up against deserter Claymores far more happy than they are and used to fighting in tight, non-ego led teams? The Ghosts, in a way that no Awakened ever could, threaten to humanize the Organization's enemies to its Claymores. There is nothing more dangerous than losing your recruits to the other side is there? The Ghosts' presence threatens an internal split among its own forces, something no commander would ever want.
Additionally the Ghosts have the "goods" on what the Organization actually is all about. This info will no doubt sow the seeds of doubt in more than a few opposing Claymores.
yezhanquan
2008-12-31, 02:22
I personally believe that the panic is restricted to the lower to middle echleons. I don't think the Council is very much fazed by the developments. Not that they cared much beyond the Council. The Organisation was most probably set up from a position of weakness, so they planned that as long as the Council remained intact, and given time, everything can be rebuilt.
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