Clannad ~After Story~ - Episode 12 Discussion / Poll

[Klashikari]

Welcome to the discussion thread for Clannad ~After Story~ , Episode 12.

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[Myssa Rei]

... That was probably one of the oddest -- and most sudden -- marriage proposals I've ever seen. Who would have thought that Tomoya trying to dodge the subject of his father would lead to that.

[Ottocycle]

He wasn't trying to dodge the topic I thought. He was just pissed off and resigned over all else. That lead to him finally recognising that he needed Nagisa to get through life, and hence he raised the proposal to keep her alongside him forever.

That was one FAST Yoshino arc though.

[Yushi]

Wow....this episode was epic....

That was ....actually one of the most touching marriage proposals I've ever seen in anime T_T They didn't need a mushy candle night dinner followed by a fancy ring.... All it took was the realization that they needed EACH OTHER .... and that was more than enough. There was no blubbering tears of happiness or anything like that, instead, it was just a quiet and peaceful "yes". T_T Their relationship is just so great. They don't need those frequent high or lows, they are beyond that. They are a couple that can truely last T_T

Regarding Tomoya's father...I was kinda hoping that after Tomoya rushed out, Nagisa would talk to him or something and Tomoya's father would reveal what he truely feels. Oh well XD

[Beo]

Called a reflection point, a point in life were a direction is set and to move forward. Maybe an obtuse term for most people but you will figure it out someday.

[Proto]

A little, yet eventful episode. Kudos on making me cry. Twice.

[rave_master16]

Damn. it. This episode really made choked up.
Interesting points.
~Another Akio quiz. Barba~what?
~Tomoya knows how to dodge an interrogation by commenting what he wants. I want Nagisa wear the swimsuit, too. ^_^
~Is it just me? Is Tomoya finally got a promotion or something? (Correct me I can't quite understand it)
~"The Rise and Fall of a Rock Star" - This proves life is just a circle. Cycle.
~What would you feel if one related to you is caught by the police? And made you lost the chance of taking a big opportunity. Feelings that will make you bleed. Specifically, in your fists.
~And finally, a marriage proposal. You can do it anytime, anywhere. The important thing is the one you are going to propose. Enough to feel she's the one you want to be with "FOREVER".
I love Tomoya X Nagisa. It made me realize "Love is pure". ~_~
T_T

[MeoTwister5]

Must... watch... subs... not... out... soul... dying...

[cbatty]

Subs are out...

[SidVicious]

He will marry my Nagisa. :(

[Sheba]

It was either that way or beating around the bush for two more episodes :p

[RandomFlameStrike]

Well that was one heck of an episode! It was great and had I a lot of good points. Yoshino's backstory felt a little rushed, but there was tons of focus on Tomoya. You could really see how the events of his life changed his personality, as well as some things that he couldn't get over.

As for downsides, it's mostly just me complaining about the game. The biggest issue would be them changing the fact Tomoya and Nagisa should already be living togheter, and the lack of inmate actions between them. If I recall, they haven't kissed yet in the anime? T.T Well it's not like the emotional love between them is any less though so I'm cool. Another thing that worries me is how fast they are going. It seems like they skipped a bit of material like the first time Tomoya and Nagisa went to meet Tomoya's dad. A few details were changed to, like how Tomoya was the one who asked Nagisa to marry him, but I believe it was the other way around. They reaffrimed their love for eachother and decided to tie the knot XD.

[musume_no_hoshi]

Best proposal scene I ever seen. Nagisa's simple 'hai' just make things even more tear jerking.

It's still interesting there's no intimidate scenes through out the whole series, except that Tomoyo Special Episode :heh:

[LoweGear]

Thoughts on the last couple of minutes



The lead in may have been unexpected, and the minutes prior to that were filled with much anger, despair and hatred on Tomoya's part, and muted anxiety on Nagisa's part...

But somehow, that made the sudden marriage proposal that came so... beautiful.

This was not a proposal that came when the couple were lovey-dovey with each other, having their heads up in the clouds high with the feeling of love. This was a proposal made during a very intense moment, when Nagisa saw Tomoya at possibly his worst yet, with his near self-destructive behavior that could've possibly hurt her as well.

And yet when he did pop the question, she replied so simply. That she could still answer "yes" so simply yet sincerely and honestly really did it for me. That even during the worst of it, she could accept Tomoya like that as if of course.

It's a devotion so unconditional that it boggles the mind. And yet that is what makes it incredibly beautiful: because it shows that they really will, and can stick through the bad, the thin, and the sickness.

[MeoTwister5]

Just finished watching.

I'm almost absolutely sure the highly compressed Yoshino arc in all 10 minutes of it was adapted to the letter, heck his crying scene was practically lifted from the game. The compression lessened the impact of his tale a bit, of course Yoshino's story was really short to begin with anyway.

I also sort of noticed how Tomoya was more open to conversation in the park when Nagisa pointed it out. Stark contrast to the first episode where he entered his classroom with an apathetic face and spoke to no one.

And when Nagisa said the great thing about the town was meeting Tomoya... dammit I wish I knew the English equivalent to the Filipino term kinikilig.

The title of the next episode is graduation... which means only one thing: Grab a few kleenex tissues and maybe your high school yearbook. Take note of the baseball and bat, looks like it's the legendary fight.

As for the end of the episode... man... it doesn't really hit home until you see Nagisa crying when she frantically tries to restrain Tomoya from further injuring his own body. And then he pops the question.

Then he asks her if she'll always be with him, forever. God lord... I'll post more when I'm okay.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go cry womanly man tears in the john.

[Proto]

A few details were changed to, like how Tomoya was the one who asked Nagisa to marry him, but I believe it was the other way around.

Short answer: They didn't change it.

BTW for more anime-game comparisons I think the spoiler or game thread would be a better place.

[Lyrical Flandre]

Although Tomoya meets his father and gets angry because he committed a serious crime,
he smiles a bit as usual.
I guess, no matter what is said to him or no matter how other people treat him,
he does nothing but show the same smile. I feel pity for him.　:(

[Kristen]

I really liked this episode all around. I'm glad that they kept Yoshino's arc and showed how vital he is to the story. Though, gosh, he looks EXACTLY like Tomoya as a high schooler.

Though, I kind of wish they didn't show Okazaki's father behind the box. In the game, it was just the holes to talk through, and it made him into someone metaphorically who had lost all existence in Tomoya's mind, but was still there. Then again, that was me probably overthinking it, probably Key just not wanting to make a CG for him. XD

I am REALLY hoping they change the OP/ED after the break, since people like Kotomi and Tomoyo really are not involved.

[kk2extreme]

i wish that i have a wife like nagisa :(

[Nerroth]

He will marry my Nagisa. :(

Meh, it could be worse...

...he could be marrying Tomoyo-dono. Well, in this timeline, anyway.

[Kinny Riddle]

Amazing, somehow they managed to fit in Yoshino's monologue nicely there and still have more than enough room to play out all the crucial scenes that leads to the most important one of all - Tomoya proposing to Nagisa, and Yoshino's flashback hardly feels out of place at all, as it complements Yoshino's final sentence "Don't lose sight of what's important to you."

Just when Tomoya was on the verge of total despair, Nagisa was there, and upon which Tomoya realized the reason he came so far was because of her, and only her. Such is Nagisa's importance to him that he has come to the point of realization that he cannot be without her.

Nowadays, I don't rate individual episodes of series I watch, because if I like the series a lot, my judgment would be clouded by my bias and I would rate it a 10 all the time, which wouldn't be right.

However, if I ever get a chance to come back and rate every episode once Clannad is completely finished, this episode would most certainly rank amongst my top three.

BTW, is episode 13 going to be shown next week or go into a winter break and return 2-3 weeks later on January?

[sikvod00]

^ I believe it's going to go into a return break.

[Vegard Aune]

BTW, is episode 13 going to be shown next week or go into a winter break and return 2-3 weeks later on January?
I'm afraid there's gonna be a break now...

Anyway, episode... Again, just like with episode 9, I have absolutely no complaints. Truly a fantastic episode, which makes this apparent two-week break all the more frustrating, because I can't wait for the next episode.

...God, I love this show.

[Tiran86]

8/10. The last few episodes have been a little boring since the humor is down, are overall still good.

I really liked Tomoya's proposal to Nagisa, and Yoshino's backstory.

[Slackjack]

My favorite of After Story this far.

Yoshino Arc made as much impression as it did in the game, if not more, and the drug-abuse scene was, though short, very direct and moving (Don't know why, but that's the scene which appealed to me).

[Yukinokesshou]

Wah lau, this episode si beh powerful one leh!! Tomoya+Nagisa must be the most perfect romance ever, or at least in the history of anime. Yoshino's flashback was a bit boring, to be honest; it didn't have much of an effect on me and came across as rather pointless. The last 10 minutes more than made up for that, though.

滿分10/10！

[Bathory Area]

Episode 12 was pretty dramatic. I didn’t cried but my eyes were teared up. Also noticed that they remade a bit scene “Tomoya punching wall” in promo that scene looked otherwise. And Yuusuke’s backstory was pretty damn dramatic too. Young Yuusuke resembles Tomoya.

[Mecha_Trueno]

Are we gonna get more on Yoshino's story? Or is it over? remember spoilers please;)
i still think he's THE MAN for marrying his hot teacher!:D

[MeoTwister5]

Are we gonna get more on Yoshino's story? Or is it over? remember spoilers please;)
i still think he's THE MAN for marrying his hot teacher!:D

Unless they add something, it's over and done.

[RandomFlameStrike]

Er not really. In the game there's still a bit left untill you get his light, Tomoya and Nagisa both do something for him. I'm not sure if they'll animate it though.

[Proto]

As I said, let's use the other threads for comparison/reference purposes please, this is the Episode 12 thread. :(

Tomoya+Nagisa must be the most perfect romance ever

One could argue there is still Sakura and Shaoran, but that is a matter of opinion. :)

[Myssa Rei]

Hmm, two weeks wait before the next episode. Some of my co-watchers here in the polluted dirtbowl that also happens to be called the Philippine capital wonder if the studio will change the OP and ED animation, given the shift in focus of the story -- honestly, when was the last time we've seen Kotomi -- but personally I don't think it's likely.

What I WOULD like to see though is a change in ED... It's far too upbeat for what's about to come. They could bring it back for the last episode though.

[Yukinokesshou]

What I WOULD like to see though is a change in ED... It's far too upbeat for what's about to come. They could bring it back for the last episode though.

No, bring back Dango Daikazoku for the last episode :)

One could argue there is still Sakura and Shaoran, but that is a matter of opinion. :)

Well, I don't know about them. My apologies if they're really popular, but my pick of anime is a bit erratic and skips over some of the stuff everyone knows (like Bleach).

[DesuX2]

They should nickname Tomoya "fastest proposal in the west" desu. Although it's abit unrealistic, the heart-wrenching moments are still in this episode, so it's an A++ for me desu.

[Vegard Aune]

No, bring back Dango Daikazoku for the last episode :)
Nah, it has to be Chiisana Tenohira, or else I'll have to murder someone. But still, I definitely do not want them to use TORCH at the very end of the series. It's a decent song, but there's just so many other songs that would fit better. Of course, I'm not entirely sure how the story will end, but regardless of whether it's a happy ending or a sad one, I still don't think TORCH would really work well with either.

[deffusse]

aha, ok, serving me a big portion of sad story, that's what I call "amaze me a little bit more".... not only another real life fiction, slice of life moments, but also moments from yoshino's past,.... and tomoya's father revival ?? I should have predict it.... But I simply couldn't. And in the end, probably the most sad marriage proposal I've ever seen in anime.

great ep, scores A+

[SuperKnuckles]

Yoshino's story is sad and all, but a bit too stock. It's the same story you hear from traditional 'fall of a rock star' story you hear ALL the time. Can't get any more stock than that.

[Ottocycle]

Yoshino's story is sad and all, but a bit too stock. It's the same story you hear from traditional 'fall of a rock star' story you hear ALL the time. Can't get any more stock than that.
That's probably one of the reasons why they kept it really short. Dragging it out over 1 whole episode wouldn't be a good idea.

[Eddward]

10/10 no doubt!.

I liked every minute of the episode, so not much to add :)

[Orophin]

No, bring back Dango Daikazoku for the last episode :)
Or even better, no ED at all. :p

No ED = longer episode

Anyway, I loved this episode. It's the best one so far in my opinion.

[typhonsentra]

I dunno, I was kinda expecting a more romantic proposal....

[Proto]

One could argue there is still Sakura and Shaoran, but that is a matter of opinion.
Well, I don't know about them. My apologies if they're really popular, but my pick of anime is a bit erratic and skips over some of the stuff everyone knows (like Bleach).

For you to skip over Card Captor Sakura and Tsubasa Reservoir Chronicles, two of CLAMP's best works it sure is erratic :p They are not necessarely better, as I said it is a matter of personal taste (Jinto and Lafiel from the Crest of the Stars series is another couple that ranks high for me, but I doubt many people shares my opinion) but at the very least they are one of the best known couples.

I dunno, I was kinda expecting a more romantic proposal....

Well, this one was quite original and meaningful in its right, you can't have everything I guess :p

[Kinny Riddle]

Wah lau, this episode si beh powerful one leh!! Tomoya+Nagisa must be the most perfect romance ever, or at least in the history of anime. Yoshino's flashback was a bit boring, to be honest; it didn't have much of an effect on me and came across as rather pointless. The last 10 minutes more than made up for that, though.

滿分10/10！

Firstly, um, are you sure you're from HK? I LOL'ed at all the Singlish, but please, try to refrain from using that unless you're in a Singaporean or Malaysian forum, or people from other countries would have a hard time understanding. :D

Anyway, I disagree that Yoshino's flashback was pointless. As I said, the theme of him bringing out the flashback "Cherish those that are important to you" would resonate well with Tomoya afterwards when he realized Nagisa's the one who dragged him away from total despair and helplessness, and keeps him standing.

[hero147]

I think Clannad has a reason for putting an upbeat song as it's ending, even though it's relatively sad...Unless they're idiots. Kanon 2006 also had an upbeat song as its ending, which I thought was a horrible idea at times. But in the end, I thought it was an excellent choice.

[Vegard Aune]

Kanon 2006 also had an upbeat song as its ending, which I thought was a horrible idea at times. But in the end, I thought it was an excellent choice.
Well, in Kanon's case, they actually used the same ending-theme as the visual novel did, plus, yes, it fit PERFECTLY in the final episode. But in this case, not only can I not see the current ending-theme working for the ending regardless of whether it's a happy or sad one, but it would also mean omitting the final ending-theme from the game. This would, in my opinion, be a terrible idea because:
-That song is inconceivably beautiful.
-It would fit just as well for a happy ending as it would for a sad one.
-It's based on Nagisa's theme.

[Aizu]

Great episode, especially it's ending. And they showed here even one arc, that's good. Now there are two events that will change their life completely. I'll give the higest rating for this wonderful ending.

Perfect 10.

[cbatty]

Loved this ep. Even though there was alot in it, it still didn't feel rushed. Since there is now a break, I am happy they ended it on a high note. The proposal was wonderful coming after such a dramatic incident. And Nagisa's answer to Tomoya was beautiful.

As for the ED, I like the upbeat theme. I understand from reading earlier posts that the story takes a sader path in the coming episodes, so the shift to the happier ending theme willh elp me to adjust back to reality.

[Guardian Enzo]

Well, that ending could hardly have been more full of ugly foreshadowing, could it...

[Nerroth]

Poor DiarmuidYoshino...


And great ep!

[Sorrow-K]

The only thing that I didn't like about this episode was that they crammed way too much into Yoshino's story. It was rushed and it felt like they were trying to cram too many dramatic plot points into it, so it eventually felt erratic and directionless, until it was finally revealed he resorted to drugs. It was both an inevitability (I mean, this is rock music after all), but it still felt sudden after the reasoning. So I don't think the way they told his story was handled all that brilliantly.

Tomoya's relationship with his father is, as usual, what makes him such a flawed and interesting character. The underlying message in all of this is obvious, though. In Tomoya's eyes, his father is destroying his life, while Nagisa is building it back up again.

[Dark Faith]

Can't help but to love how Tomoya considers his father a curse... though I was kinda puzzled as to why the old man didn't even say a word during their meeting.
Tomoya snapping was pretty well done, he's lucky to have Nagisa around, otherwise he'd surely break.

Overall I love the two as a pair... probably one of the reasons why I love Clannad so much; things rarely feel unnecessary... when anything happens it just feels "right".

10/10.

[Leo_Otaku]

Yoshino's story is sad and all, but a bit too stock. It's the same story you hear from traditional 'fall of a rock star' story you hear ALL the time. Can't get any more stock than that.

yeah about the drugs part but not about his songs. I don't hear or haven't heard of that case where he began to sing for what people wanted and changed his music and became a failure to that. Also the town hold s a special place to him. I just hear about rock stars doing drugs because that is what is really associated with them.

[Knight]

How do you guys know episode 13 won't air until January? Anime News Network still list the episode airing on the 26th.

[eplipswich]

How do you guys know episode 13 won't air until January? Anime News Network still list the episode airing on the 26th.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=75601

This topic is stickied btw...

[Knight]

I know that, I just want to know the source that confirms it since I look on the official site and it didn't say anything about a break.

[Nochgo]

I was kinda puzzled as to why the old man didn't even say a word during their meeting.


Thats exactly what I thought too. I was wondering if he would ever break from his stupid, meek smile to say something, at least a word. Jeez, he pissed me off, almost as much as it did for Tomoya (I guess that might be a bit of an exaggeration).

Anyhow, this was an awesome episode yet again. I liked the rather short Yoshino monologue. I didn't really think he would ever get a backstory, so it was a nice surprise for me. And Tomoya's proposal to Nagisa... it was so beautiful. I don't think I saw a more dramatic proposal than that in any anime/manga. You can really see how they treasure their love and importance to each other. Arg, I'm really crazed with Clannad right now, maybe even more than I did for the first semester.

How do you guys know episode 13 won't air until January? Anime News Network still list the episode airing on the 26th.

Because its Christmas week, they aren't going to air normal programs. So most, if not all, of anime will take a break this coming week, and same goes for manga as well. Its rather annoying since they do this every year, but they do this only once a year, and its holidays. I guess it is saying you should rather go outside and have fun than watch anime during holidays (though I prefer the latter ^^;)

[Ascaloth]

Episode 12 article is up:

[RIUVA] CLANNAD ~After Story~, Episode 12 (http://www.riuva.com/?p=1338)

One of the ways in which I judge the rating of an episode, is how much heart and soul I get inspired to put into making a blog article about it. In that respect, Episode 12 gets a well-deserved Perfect 10.

[MeoTwister5]

I think I have enough available neurons for a coherent post...

----------------

It is perhaps understandable the way that Tomoya is always dodging any questions regarding his father, as it is more than obvious just how distant the two are ever since the loss of his mother. But what is perhaps even more poignant, and much more radically different compared to anime trends, is Nagisa's approach to discussing a serious matter with him. Many anime and any TV show in general would have likely approached the matter with some humored act of violence, prolonged postponement some deus ex machina diversion to handle the topic another day. This isn't the case, as Nagisa is so finely tuned to Tomoya that she isn't swayed by his tactics and even though he tries to change the subject, she still pressures an answer from him.

To me, that is a sign of such an amount of love for him that she tries to settle the problem with him rather than leave it for another day. You may think that cushioning the issue or being accomodating with him is more intimate approach, but I'd disagree, believing that she loves him more than enough to know that letting these feelings fester within him longer than it already has would just bring him harm. She cares for him so much that she's willing to deal with his possible irritation just to help him. That's a truer sign of love than anything else she could have done.

Yoshino's tale was rather compressed, though considering that it was also a first person flashback in the game, it was good that the company decided to keep it short and straight to the point rather than to actually animate his life story. That's not to say of course that it became pointless, though cliche that it was. As Yoshino himself tells Tomoya, never lose sight of what your doing it all for, because it is what gives you your srength to endure life's daily grind. This all the more so becomes apparent minutes later in the episode. It is, again, just another one of te lessons he needs to learn to know what family is, and thus a critical component in his life.

And then jail. Here it was never clearly revealed why his father was arrested but the game did mention it, so anyone curious should head there, but perhaps more important than Tomoya snapping is the facial expression that his father had the whole time, even while beaing berated by his son. I'm sure no father could take such a sermon from his own son, even if a lot of what he said is true. Even then, he had a calm and serene look on his face, as if knowing and accepting that this would happen to him. He knows that his son hates him greatly, yet he sits there is an almost resigned acceptance. How does he do it?

If anyone who watched this episode ended up hating his father for what he did, amplified by his almost calm ambivalence... well I guess such feelings are understandable. Tomoya lost a career opportunity as a result of being a criminal's son and will carry a sort of stigma attached to that status, so his father is at some fault. But I'd ask you all, what is his father's reason for being such a dejected, soulless and almost empty individual?

I for one, even before I finished the game, never believed he is what he is because he is some irresponsible and repugnant member of society. The anime has yet to reach giving an explanation for how Tomoya's father became how he is, so I'd ask viewers to hang on to those feelings until the anime decides to show us the truth of Tomoya's father (hoping they don't change anything).

On the swings in front of the bakery I assume, we again see the Tomoya who hated life and hated the town, similar to how he was in the first season. It's as if parts of his former self is reverting to how he was in the past, with his anger for his father as the catalyst. If anything I think, we could probably say with some sort of finality that his father issues is a core source of his previous life and attitudes: an escapist floating with the tides of the town. This I think this was the first time he mentions wanting to leave the town and start a new life elsewhere, where his curse can't follow him. Nagisa says she'll follow as long as she's with him, but wants to at least make it so that the town becomes as place where Tomoya can come home to. I'd assume she means making peace with his father.

We come therefore to the last few minutes of the episode which, as some people above me have already said, I think is one of the most endearing and touching marriage proposals I have had the pleasure of witnessing. It's a proposal made in the middle of a time of crisis, when one is at his weakest and most vulnerable. At that moment for Tomoya, I think, a thundering realization that though he is trying his best against the cruel tides, his life alone and with his father is still a crumbling mess. I'd think he is not just at odds with his father but also with himself, thinking himself a worthless individual doomed and cursed into a empty and unrewarding life granted to him not only by the fates but by his own father. He most likely feels impotent, powerless, weak, doomed.

He punches the wall in anger and disgust, loathing much for not just his father but for his own self. Is life nothing more than a series of miserable failures and sad events, no matter how one tries his best? Is this a Sisyphian task?

Nagisa in her panic grabs him from behind as he rages inside and outside. I could see that in his anger he's trying to toss her aside but she hangs on for dear life, not wanting to let him go.

This, I think, is what made this moment so much more powerful in its delivery.

A normal person would have been terrifed seeing a side to their significant other they have never seen before. I'm sure she was too, but rather than stand in fear, chose to cling to him and try to calm him. She could have gotten herself hurt or worse, he could have taken it out on her. But she didn't flinch, and hang on to him.

Tomoya eventually comes to face her and sees the tears in her eyes, Nagisa crying as she tries to stop him. To me, this wasn't just tears of fear rather, tears of sorrow. Sorrow that he felt so hurt and so betrayed, that she might not be able to do anything for him, that she might lose the Tomoya that she loved above all things. She was sad not for her, but for him.

This I believe was the point that Tomoya finally considered the idea of marriage. It was here that Nagisa finally got him back to his senses. I'm almost sure that he didn't take the idea marriage into a lot of thought before this moment. At that moment he realized that the girl hugging him with all her might was the only one willing to bear with his anger, sadness, faults and perhaps, even his curse. He showed a terrifying side to him no one has perhaps ever seen, but she didn't think twice about staying by him. Where others may run, she stood her ground.

I think that for the first time since he met a quiet and indecisive girl on the slope leading to school, he felt to it's fullest just how much she loved him, and how much he loved her. Here he realizes that maybe, just maybe, life didn't deal him the worst of hands. He realizes that life isn't a useless struggle for happiness and survival. Here he realizes that despite his own sadness, faults, grief and anger, there was someone willing to take the challenge of life with him.

She was, perhaps, just as broken as he was.

And in that moment of a very human weakness, realizing that he has finally found what he had been missing all his life, asks her to marry him. It didn't take a candelight dinner, a romantic getaway or a beautiful sunset to seal the deal. All it took was a very human moment, when man comes to know that he is nothing when he is alone, to find that which completes him.

She answers with a simple yes.

----------------

Oh boy.....

[Solafighter]

"Nagisa, lets get married."

-"Yes."


Huh?! :uhoh:

Thats fast.

Okazaki, dont forget to make a testdrive before buying a car. :D

:rolleyes:

[velvet]

Is life nothing more than a series of miserable failures and sad events, no matter how one tries his best? Is this a Sisyphian task?

He realizes that life isn't a useless struggle for happiness and survival. Here he realizes that despite his own sadness, faults, grief and anger, there was someone willing to take the challenge of life with him.

She was, perhaps, just as broken as he was.


Haii,
Zutto soba ni imasu,
Dou na toki mo,
Itsumademo.

And negau ga kanau basho ni was not helping. All it did was worsening the wound on my mind, thank you.

@meotwisters
apparently my neurons failed me. I couldn't even make any sense with my sentences since yesterday. I think.

[TenkenXD]

Lol, despite mixed reviews on how the proposal went, I thought it was incredibly touching.

Maybe not as romantic or extravagent as a usual marriage proposal but it was quite literally "the thought that counts"

I mean ppl pop the question in the most exaggerated ways like through an announcement at a crowded baseball game where everyone swoons when a guy gets on one knee and blah blah blah. :p

But Tomoya's proposal, which was very nonchalant, seemed indifferent to what Nagisa would respond. After all, he just lost a huge opportunity in getting a better job enough to support a family and his dad is in jail, so he wasn't feeling especially romantic. :eyebrow:

The only good thing in his life is Nagisa. Her calm response is what made him realize what he really means to her and vice versa. That's what made it so special to me. 10/10


We're officially halfway there ppl! 12 more eps!

[SkoolRumble4Ya]

Great episode! Very emotional indeed I love how they kept the proposal simple.

[rainnydaiis]

I'm pretty shocked as how clannad can keep making episodes so tear jerking for me. The end to this episode was no exception. Yoshino's story was very tear jerking and the ending with the proposal and saying how they would always be with each other was so simple and yet very touching to see. I can't seem to wait for the next episode where they go to get Okazaki's fathers approval for the marriage.

[zzeroparticle]

Man, this was a powerful episode.

Gotta agree with those who said that Yoshino's story was rushed, though you can't say it didn't have its share of touching moments. There were really a lot of poignant scenes in there and the lessons that he took from his singing experience were pretty sad, and he did grow a lot from it.

And Tomoya... what an interesting character. His inability to deal with his father just continues to haunt him and keeps him from being able to achieve his potential. In a sense, his frustration manifests itself in ways that are most certainly self-destructive and that can be looked upon metaphorically as to how his father's influence affects him. Nagisa's role in all this is a force to keep him together so that he doesn't ruin his life and give him something to aim for. That's probably why I find that she's just really perfect for him. Her simple nature and the way she points things out to him to help him refocus is what's so enjoyable about this particular pairing.

[Sinestra]

Granted i was not expecting a marriage proposal but if you look at Tomoya does things this is not entirely out of his character. I know others said they would have thought it would have been more romantic but thats just not Tomoya's style. I believe Nagisa is Tomoya's saving grace. His inability to deal with his father brings out his rage, embarrassment and shame Nagisa's love and the fact that Tomoya knows Nagisa is always with him calms his soul. I dont think anyone else other than Nagisa is capable of this. Them getting married is not all that surprising and i for one am happy about it they are very well suited for one another. Your special person is what you cant be and has what you lack and vice versa. I am very excited about the next episode.

[FireDetei]

Romance these days is percieved to be too flashy, too showcasey; but that scene for me was more romantic than any other i've seen in any film/episode. We have love in it's rawest form; two people. These days when people pop the occasion, they do so in a manner which to them will forever be remembered, usually with big bang....but this really was simple, which left a bigger inpact that other scene.

Tomoya had just once again lost a chance for something good because of his father; he really went into a dark patch....but this time he wasnt alone, and he realised it; she was the one person able to bring him back from the darkness, and he didnt ever not want her around. There wasnt a need for any material possesion, an announcement to the world, nothing....but a simple question and answer, which for me meant more than anything else could have. Really an amazing scene.

[Momosan]

I guess I'll be in the minority here because I didn't really enjoy this episode very much. I found Yoshino's story to be slightly incoherent, perhaps it was the subs or just my own error. Tomoya's proposal seemed awkward and out of place.

Could Nagisa even possibly reject Tomoya? One of the reasons I dislike Nagisa is that her character is a people pleaser which I view to be weak and uninteresting since they are predictable. If losing a job opportunity to a negative influence he's accustomed to causes him to have psychotic outbursts of agression, I can only imagine what the rejection of the person dearest to you would do. He practically forced Nagisa into a scenario where her character couldn't refuse.

I haven't really enjoyed the series as much as I did during the Fuuko arc. After Story has for the most part removed the supporting cast and focused mainly on Nagisa and Tomoya. I don't really like Nagisa and Tomoya I'm starting to like less and less as he moves further and further from his considerate nature.

[destiny4everlove]

Episode 12

-yay!! :smile: Akio’s quiz! :heh: We have not seen one of them since last season!

-Tomoya trying to dodge’s Nagisa’s topic of conversation was very adorable and sad at the same time. Adorable because he tried to do it by talking about something he wanted to see (Nagisa in a swimsuit ;)) and sad because he did it because it was a topic very hard and painful for him. :upset:

-Nagisa’s words “Let’s meet him (Tomoya’s dad) together one day” had a whole new meaning the second time I watched this episode. http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/tina_0205/monkey%20emoticon/khi04.gif They did meet him, but the conditions in which they did were so …so heartbreaking and painful!http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/tina_0205/monkey%20emoticon/khi32.gif

-Yoshino’s backstory was very touching indeed!http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/tina_0205/monkey%20emoticon/khi04.gif I liked how Yoshino’s story is very similar to Tomoya’s. I was gladly surprise to find out that the two men are not only similar in their physical appearance. I hope that Yoshino's words will help Tomoya during the future hardships of his life.

-Yoshino has truly turned into Tomoya’s sensei, not only in work but in life as well. :nod:

-Loved the scene of Tomoya and Nagisa cooking together!http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/tina_0205/monkey%20emoticon/khi00.gif Tomoya being recognized for his hard work, Nagisa supporting him and encouraging him to take that promotion opportunity, Tomoya feeling Nagisa’s support and agreeing to do it. I just loved that scene! http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/tina_0205/monkey%20emoticon/khi01.gif Sometimes in life we are afraid to face changes or unknown situations, but how good it is to have someone by our side to give us the courage and strength we need to face those situations! I so love Nagisa x Tomoya!!! http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/tina_0205/monkey%20emoticon/khi9b.gif

-Loved the scene of Nagisa and Tomoya holding hands! I have loved every one of Nagisa and Tomoya’s interactions so far, but I feel a little cheated :sad: because they have not kissed yet and I do want to see a Nagisa x Tomoya kiss. I think Nagisa x Tomoya is perfect the way it is but a kiss would not hurt the awesomeness of their relationship, right?

-Tomoya losing his promotion because of his father was so heartbreaking! http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/tina_0205/monkey%20emoticon/khi2j.gif Tomoya was so excited and he so deserved that promotion and losing all of that in the blink of an eye (and because of something he didn’t do) was such a painful thing to watch.http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/tina_0205/monkey%20emoticon/khi04.gif But that is society I guess; quick to judge a person based on rumors, appearances or other “superficial” things...

-Nagisa and Tomoya’s scene at the park was so touching and filled with so much emotion! http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/tina_0205/monkey%20emoticon/khi04.gif But I agree with Nagisa, running from your problems or from things that are painful for you is never a good thing. It was also interesting to see how for Tomoya their city is a place filled with many painful memories and situations, a city without one good thing about it; whereas for Nagisa is a placed filled with “a lot of good things”, the best thing being Nagisa meeting Tomoya. I love how Nagisa despite all the sad things that have happened to her in her city, she still loves her city and tries to see the good things about it rather than the bad things (being sick, make fun of because of her sickness, not having friends, etc.). It’s interesting to see how for two people the same place, moment, situation, day, etc. can hold two completely different meanings. Tomoya was starting to love the city, and now thanks to his dad all that love has gone away. :(:upset:

-Sometimes complete silence can hurt so much more than words, this was proven at the scene with Tomoya’s dad while Nagisa and Tomoya were visiting him. I felt so bad for my poor Tomoya. http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/tina_0205/monkey%20emoticon/khi04.gif

-Watching Tomoya hurting himself was so painful!http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/tina_0205/monkey%20emoticon/khi32.gif Within Tomoya’s punch were mixed feelings of rage, frustration, pain, and powerlessness, all mixed together. I felt bad for Tomoya, but I felt especially bad for Nagisahttp://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/tina_0205/monkey%20emoticon/khi04.gif, because watching the one you love hurting himself must be one of the hardest and most painful things a person can experience. Watching Nagisa desperately trying to stop Tomoya from hurting himself more that he had already done was like adding salt to an open wound for me!!!http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/tina_0205/monkey%20emoticon/khi32.gif

-Watching Tomoya snapped out of his self-destructive trance as soon as he saw Nagisa crying was so touching!http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/tina_0205/monkey%20emoticon/khi04.gif

-The marriage proposal scene was so beautiful!! It wasn’t very romantic, but it was filled with so much love and it was so heartfelt and that was what made it so beautiful! Tomoya realizing that he needs Nagisa like the air he breaths and he doesn’t want to be without her not even for a second, Nagisa assuring Tomoya that he is the only one for her, that she loves him despite his past, that she loves him for who he is, and saying that she also needs him as much as he needs her and that it doesn’t matter if both of them are “pathetic” (although I don’t think they are at all), because together they can become strong (which have been showed during the whole series), because of all of these reasons I loved that scene so much!http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/tina_0205/monkey%20emoticon/khi01.gif Nagisa knows that life is not easy, but she also knows that if you have someone by your side who truly loves you then no matter how big the problems and hardships of life are you will be able to face and overcome such problems and hardships. Watching this episode increased my love for Nagisa x Tomoya so much!! Tomoya x Nagisa is my OTP in the whole anime world and episodes like this one reminds me why they are my absolute OTP!http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/tina_0205/monkey%20emoticon/khi9b.gif

I can’t wait to watch the next episode!! :blush:

[Master Chibi]

holy crack d4el, lay off the cocaine

there were somethings in this episode that came off as being horribly done (I felt like I was watching The Silence of the Lambs when he was talking to his father, and that slight pause when the two of them are in the street with tears in their eyes where they pan out show just for some INEXPLICABLY FUCKING RETARDED REASON a couple walk by) but whatever, it's the first real showing of emotion I've gotten from these two in regards to one another in ages, so I'll just take it.

[theorys]

As always, this show is fantastic, however as for the storyline...I'd like to think that Nagisa and Tomoya's engagement as a good thing...

...but think about it.

Tomoya was in severe emotional pain because of his father. Then he sees a couple walk past, and automatically thinks "wow, I am in such bad shape, what can I do to fix it so I can be normal again."

"I know, I'll ask Nagisa to marry me so I can be normal like that couple."

That's pretty childish reason to get married. Running away from his father into Nagisa's arms won't bring him happiness...it will only bring Nagisa pain because he's carrying all this unresolved emotional baggage into the relationship.

For a second, I almost thought he was going to punch Nagisa (out of sheer frustration from his father) and not punch the wall.

:confused:

[Proto]

Although I agree that that might have served as some kind of trigger, I get this unnerving feeling that you are over simplifying his train of though :p

But well, in a sense it is one of the reasons CLANNAD is good. Its characters are clearly flawed in some of their traits. And the storytelling is not afraid of admitting it.

[Tiran86]

As always, this show is fantastic, however as for the storyline...I'd like to think that Nagisa and Tomoya's engagement as a good thing...

...but think about it.

Tomoya was in severe emotional pain because of his father. Then he sees a couple walk past, and automatically thinks "wow, I am in such bad shape, what can I do to fix it so I can be normal again."

"I know, I'll ask Nagisa to marry me so I can be normal like that couple."

That's pretty childish reason to get married. Running away from his father into Nagisa's arms won't bring him happiness...it will only bring Nagisa pain because he's carrying all this unresolved emotional baggage into the relationship.

For a second, I almost thought he was going to punch Nagisa (out of sheer frustration from his father) and not punch the wall.

:confused:

That scene was extremely tense. I thought Tomoya was going to hit Nagisa too. I certainly didn't expect Tomoya to propose right than.

Hmm. I should've given the episode a 9/10 instead of an 8/10. That scene was really well done.

[Master Chibi]

Meh, I thought the couple walking by was incredibly forced and so absurdly convenient that it actually took away from the scene completely.

[Sheba]

Perhaps you would appreciate the scene a bit more if you took off your "Waaah waaahh my girl should have won" googles. Not like I expected you to say something nice about it, for a change.

[Master Chibi]

Perhaps you would appreciate the scene a bit more if you took off your "Waaah waaahh my girl should have won" googles. Not like I expected you to say something nice about it, for a change.

Wow, I don't know why you would even think that, seeing as how I'm one of the few whose most adamant against people who treat shows in that manner, along with how I haven't said anything negative against Nagisa for this episode at all, but good luck running with that and being upset of my not falling in line guy.

Good job.

[sikvod00]

Tomoya was in severe emotional pain because of his father. Then he sees a couple walk past, and automatically thinks "wow, I am in such bad shape, what can I do to fix it so I can be normal again."

"I know, I'll ask Nagisa to marry me so I can be normal like that couple."

That's pretty childish reason to get married. Running away from his father into Nagisa's arms won't bring him happiness...it will only bring Nagisa pain because he's carrying all this unresolved emotional baggage into the relationship.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that even in the best of relationships, people still bring unresolved emotional baggage into the mix.:heh: Anyway, I disagree with your assessment of Tomoya's motives. I believe he's had the desire to marry her for a while now; the same goes for Nagisa (her "I've thought of no one else but you" statement). But it was something to be done down the road, when things were more settled in his life. Remember that his getting a job and becoming more responsible was largely in preparation to not only take care of himself, but Nagisa (he had discussed with her dad about her eventually moving in with him). This marriage issue is not out of the blue; the After Story arc has been building it up with all of the close interactions between the two of them.

However, the current situation made Tomoya realize just how much he needed and couldn't be without her. She saved him from himself, even at risk of getting hurt. Seeing the couple was merely a reminder of what he had forgotten was most important: being together with Nagisa. And in a sense, marriage is an escape to the person who unconditionally loves you. There's nothing wrong with that.

Now was Tomoya emotional when he said to get married? Yep. Look at his reaction when Nagisa said yes. He knew that proposing in such a miserable state was totally unconventional. Was he insincere? No. He truly meant every word of it, it's just the timing that seemed inappropriate.

[grey_moon]

This episode to me really highlights how Tomoya and Nagisa are parts on a whole person.

Nagisa has more then life loving family, whilst I can't even bear to think of Tomoya's family situation.

Tomoya is built like a tank, whilst Nagisa is frail.

Nagisa is shy, whilst Tomoya gets on with people so easily.

They just compliment each other so nicely, they defiantly are building up to be one of my favourite anime couples of all time.

[TenkenXD]

I guess I'll be in the minority here because I didn't really enjoy this episode very much. I found Yoshino's story to be slightly incoherent, perhaps it was the subs or just my own error. Tomoya's proposal seemed awkward and out of place.

Could Nagisa even possibly reject Tomoya? One of the reasons I dislike Nagisa is that her character is a people pleaser which I view to be weak and uninteresting since they are predictable. If losing a job opportunity to a negative influence he's accustomed to causes him to have psychotic outbursts of agression, I can only imagine what the rejection of the person dearest to you would do. He practically forced Nagisa into a scenario where her character couldn't refuse.

I haven't really enjoyed the series as much as I did during the Fuuko arc. After Story has for the most part removed the supporting cast and focused mainly on Nagisa and Tomoya. I don't really like Nagisa and Tomoya I'm starting to like less and less as he moves further and further from his considerate nature.

I like your counter argument. It got me thinking (though I still don't like the episode any less). It did seem kind of "forced" onto Nagisa into marrying, otherwise Tomoya might go suicidal. Despite all of that though, let's think of it this way.

Nagisa was pretty antisocial in the VERY BEGINNING. Tomoya was practically her only friend since she was held back and left with no one she knew. For some reason he felt compelled to help her out despite hating school and life. Not only did he help her gain enough confidence to make friends, but he helped her realize a small goal in which she was able to achieve (the drama club).

Now, continuing in After Story after dating for almost a year or so, Nagisa got sick again and was held back again. Tomoya spent less time with the others and stayed by her side. He's even asked Akio if she could move in with him. He wanted to live with her for the rest of his life before this episode, and so did Nagisa (episode 23 of Clannad TV's last line says as much)

In this episode, the viewers see that even Tomoya, the savior of pretty much everyone else, has his own problems to face. Nagisa was there to help him just as he was there for everyone else and especially her. So even if it was awkward timing and a little inconvenient for her, she probably would have said yes regardless. I mean she even said she was thinking of only him the entire time, right? There would be no reason to say no.

[Master Chibi]

@ Momo:

I guess I'll be in the minority here because I didn't really enjoy this episode very much. I found Yoshino's story to be slightly incoherent, perhaps it was the subs or just my own error. Tomoya's proposal seemed awkward and out of place.

Could Nagisa even possibly reject Tomoya? One of the reasons I dislike Nagisa is that her character is a people pleaser which I view to be weak and uninteresting since they are predictable. If losing a job opportunity to a negative influence he's accustomed to causes him to have psychotic outbursts of agression, I can only imagine what the rejection of the person dearest to you would do. He practically forced Nagisa into a scenario where her character couldn't refuse.

I haven't really enjoyed the series as much as I did during the Fuuko arc. After Story has for the most part removed the supporting cast and focused mainly on Nagisa and Tomoya. I don't really like Nagisa and Tomoya I'm starting to like less and less as he moves further and further from his considerate nature.

Christ, I can't believe I didn't see this the first time, but I agree 100%. Like I really have nothing to add because you are pretty much reading my mind word for word, I wish I would have met you 11 episodes ago, haha.

@ Tenken:

Nagisa was pretty antisocial in the VERY BEGINNING. Tomoya was practically her only friend since she was held back and left with no one she knew. For some reason he felt compelled to help her out despite hating school and life. Not only did he help her gain enough confidence to make friends, but he helped her realize a small goal in which she was able to achieve (the drama club).

I still think it's bullshit that said goal failed miserably, I don't quite understand why they decided to go and do that to her.

In this episode, the viewers see that even Tomoya, the savior of pretty much everyone else, has his own problems to face. Nagisa was there to help him just as he was there for everyone else and especially her. So even if it was awkward timing and a little inconvenient for her, she probably would have said yes regardless. I mean she even said she was thinking of only him the entire time, right? There would be no reason to say no.

The problem is that given her personality / attitude the entire means of getting to this point was just frightfully boring and predictable.

;p

[RandomFlameStrike]

Well for most of us predictable =/= boring. Of course it's obvious that if Tomoya proposed, Nagisa would agree lol. Even if he himself was a bit surprised none of the viewers should be. I like Nagisa's character and personality a lot. I used to like generic tsundere types, untill I realized how boring and predictable they were. Well I said before that predictablity isn't always bad, but it's really the execution that counts. Like how many shonen animu have similar featuers but some suck and others aren't that bad. Nagisa kind of fits into an archetype, but her character and development are really enjoyable for me to watch. In my opinion, Nagisa is a very emotionally strong character. She isn't really a doormat like some n00b characters of the same archetype.
BTW Drama club was a FTW success XD.

[Master Chibi]

How was the drama club a success when noone showed up?

And you contradict yourself in under two sentences, that's a first.

[cbatty]

@Master Chibi: please give it a rest... It is fine to share an opinion, but to do so in such a negative and unconstructive way doesn't add to the discussion, and it certainly doesn't generate sympathy to your point of view.

Happy Christmas.

[C.A.]

There's always an ignore option, just leave him alone.

Its easy to get bothered by individuals who are negative with what they're seeing. But remember the polls are there to tell you that the show is good, the problem lies only with the negative audience.

Alot of people who like the show get affected by negative people and have a hard time enjoying the show as they feel irritated and annoyed. If that happens, just look at the poll results and you should know that the majority is enjoying as much as you are.

Anyway this episode really showed us the strength of the bond between the great couple.

[Sinestra]

How was the drama club a success when noone showed up?

And you contradict yourself in under two sentences, that's a first.

MC are talking about the Drama Club take 1 or Drama Club take 2? Because if you are talking about take 2 yes it did fail but there is something to be said about what she tried to do the second time around. I agree it was failure no one showed up so it was shut down. But this time she tried to get the drama club off the ground by herself with no help and even though it failed it was progress from the first time where all she did was brood over.

I tend to think the first time around was not really about the drama club its self. The first time around it allowed Nagisa to make friends even though it was with the help of Tomoya. Granted she did get to go up on stage and preform so that is also a triumph on her part. I dunno i tend to see two sides of a coin as I think certain scenes require you to look more at the not so obvious result.

oh well just my two cents.

[rave_master16]

Better come and say Merry Christmas to all.
And brothers, you're feeding a troll.
I agree to C.A. Don't put fuel to the fire.
And he's always like that. He will make statements just to make people who love the show suffer like he is right now.
And also expect a lot of him, ranting after the show's done. Arguing every second of it.
It's his own opinion. Since we are not the one who's irritated while watching the show, he is.
I enjoyed it. And he's disappointed and wasted time. Who do you think got the better?

And about the episode,
I love the expression of Tomoya after he proposed. Maybe he thought, he will surprise Nagisa with his sudden proposal, instead not only him but also us surprised by her quick "YES".
Again, Merry Christmas. Peace.
And I forgot, it's Nagisa's birthday.

[RandomFlameStrike]

How was the drama club a success when noone showed up?

And you contradict yourself in under two sentences, that's a first.

Ugh sorry for being confusing, what I meant to say is, being predictable = bad if the execution is bad. Nagisa = predictable but the execution of the predictable events were well done and enjoyable. Well that's all a matter of opinion but still...

Also I was refering to drama club take 1. Nagisa had Tomoya, Sunohara, Kyou, Ryou, Kotomi, support from Tomoyo, and the choir club too. Although her second attempt to create a drama club failed, it's the way she made an effort that showed development on her part, as well as how last year's successful drama club effected her.

We're probably both set in our views though haha. There's probably no way to convince a huge fanboy like me that Nagisa is bad. But for some reason when I see bad criticism about her, I feel irked and jump to the defense of the character I like x.x

[Master Chibi]

Ok first, I'm not a god damn troll.

I don't argue for the sake of arguing, and I don't do it to piss anyone off. I'm just extremely blunt and vocal about my opinion, plain and simple. I didn't dismiss anyone else's opionion either. I don't run into the new episode thread every week going 'HEY I CAN'T WAIT TO DISAGREE WITH EVERYONE'.

@ cbatty:

@Master Chibi: please give it a rest... It is fine to share an opinion, but to do so in such a negative and unconstructive way doesn't add to the discussion, and it certainly doesn't generate sympathy to your point of view.

Who said I wanted people to be sympathetic to my point of view? Do I look like a politician to you? Do you think I have some ulterior motive to coming out and flat out saying what I do outside of well, just saying it?

I don't man. I'm just expressing my views the same way all of you are. You are free to ignore it, because hey, sometimes I mistakenly rub people the wrong way. I apologize for it, but come next week a new group of people are at my neck again because I just didn't outright 'rate the episode 10/10' or what have you.

Happy Christmas.

Same to you.

Look, I'll bow out of this conversation in regards to me and just apologize for coming off in a harsh tone again.

Just please trust me, I'm really not a troll.

:\

[MeoTwister5]

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, no matter how negative or harsh the3y may be.

It's just that it's easier to understand if they'd explain better the rationale behind their view.

Much like the time I got riled on by people for saying that Evangelion is a pile of trash, but that's an issue for elsewhere.

[-Sho-]

Yeah it was a great episode ! What with tomoya's father ? Poor tomoya , he lost the job .
Great scene Tomoya X Nagisa ! He will marry her yeah !

[Momosan]

Slightly off topic, but nobody should be angry with anyone for bringing a differing opinion to a discussion. Sure, Chibi may be a little abrasive with his presentation, but that's probably because he is either relatively passionate about the show or the scenario. While I may not agree with people who are in love with every episode of Clannad, I would never consider putting them on ignore for having a different opinion. Same goes for people who dislike what I like. As long as Chibi provides accurate information to support his ideas, then I'm all for his or anyone's opinions to be presented. Putting someone on ignore for rationally arguing against you is just a huge sign of immaturity. Hopefully people can acknowledge that fact and work on improving their own tolerance.

Back on topic. Obviously, I like the show. I think the animation is excellent and the stories presented are generally better than anything I'll find anywhere else. The problem for me lies in the fact I feel like the show apex'd at episode 9. The reason I continue to watch this show is that it actually made me cry during the Fuuko arc. I'm not a very emotional person, so to me it's a sign that this show CAN do great things.

Unfortunately, for me at least, all the best parts were created by the supporting characters. The only supporting character I've enjoyed in After Story has been Mei since Nagisa's parents seem much more toned down than they were in the previous season.

I had assumed Tomoya would be the redeeming factor of After Story, but he seems to have lost confidence in what kind of person he is. Tomoya used to help people such as Fuuko and Kotomi without any inspirational reason necessary. His proactive nature kept things moving and the plot had difficulty staying stale as Tomoya was constantly out doing something. Enter Afterstory and Tomoya (and might I add nearly every other character) seems to be much more detached from life than they used to be. In the Mei Arc Tomoya did nothing helpful. Well, I guess some sadists might consider deceiving and ultimately brawling with your best friend to be helpful, but I don't. In the gang Arc Tomoya once again did nothing until he ended up having to fight someone. He wasn't really proactively doing anything, just when the time called he kinda pops up to throw some fists. In this last arc we've seen he's gotten a job and uncharacteristically doubted himself the entire time. It all ends with his inability to cope with a person who he supposedly has already written off as a waste.

The Tomoya who would stay up all night carving starfish or spend his entire savings/time to recreate a beautiful memory for a confused friend has been replaced by a pugilistic self-defeating psychopath who is latching onto whatever he can to try and anchor himself. Perhaps it's just me, but there has been no plot device to explain this change. I find myself wondering what happened every episode as he steps more and more out of character.

Oh, and Chibi. I don't really post here often. More often than not I find these forums to be more of a fanboy paradise than a haven for intelligent discussion. Usually the people who try to engage me are incredibly passionate about their views and stop arguing with coherent reasoning. There's nothing more frustrating than arguing against someone with logic only to realize they're arguing with sheer willpower.

Edit: tags added to try and reduce post length so it wasn't so daunting to read.

[Master Chibi]

Oh, and Chibi. I don't really post here often. More often than not I find these forums to be more of a fanboy paradise than a haven for intelligent discussion. Usually the people who try to engage me are incredibly passionate about their views and stop arguing with coherent reasoning. There's nothing more frustrating than arguing against someone with logic only to realize they're arguing with sheer willpower.

I love you, because I have to agree with that 100%.

I have to chime in and say it's ironic that the real couple of this show, the characters who I thought would be the real meat and potatoes of this series (and who I've been led to believe will shower me with such an ending that I'll be happy to accept) end up representing the most boring arc of both seasons.

I mean Nagia's 'sickness' still reeks of a plot device, a convienent way for them to garner sympathy for her (and yet I feel none), and yet said Fuuko arc did much more to make me teary eyed and compassionate about the entire situation going on.

I'm usually the one who usually pushes the notion that you can do more with a couple in a romantic series when they're in an established relationship then waiting until the end of the series to hook them up, because you can take their personalities and weave them amongst situations where they come to learn more and more of each other.

This entire arc of the two of them being together has proven me completely wrong. Go figure.

[Ottocycle]

@Momosan:
I think that you have a different perspective on the way you see Tomoya as compared to mine. How I see it was that in the first series, everything in Tomoya's life in and out of school revolved around family(including Nagisa's), friends and himself. Everything that Tomoya did in the School Life arc had little repercussions outside of that tiny little circle, while being really effective for the concerned parties within. Tomoya was able to bring happiness to Fuuko and her sister because he was able to flex his meddling abilities to the maximum without fear of repercussion(Koumura was like a friend to him). Likewise, he did the same for Kotomi because he was able to fully do on his own what he saw fit to wake Kotomi up from her nightmares of the past.

But when the series came to After Story, things started to change. Tomoya isn't at the centre of things anymore. Circumstance is now the operative word, and it controls Tomoya like a vice, preventing him from his full potential. This is because of his worldview getting bigger, and the 'fog of war' has been lifted, so to speak. While we still see things from his point of view, his embarkation into society after leaving school in effect means that his naive view of being able to effect the changes that he wants, through hard work or whatever ways will be shattered, simply because in real life, shit happens, and he has no way of controlling that. I personally think that Tomoya has lost his footing thanks to his gradual helplessness, and he is not able to exude that self-confidence he had before in the first series. He has been able to cope only because he was able to put down his pride at the times that he should, and actually strive to earn his keep in spite of the times.

Maybe it's just my rose-tinted view of the series speaking, but I'd think that the order of the arcs in After Story so far has been steadily showcasing his lack of control over the events that eventually happen.

- Sunoharas' arc(not Mei's only) - yes he could act as an intermediary or something since he knew both parties well, but how much could he understand about the intricacies of a sibling relationship, given that he is an only child?

- Yukine arc - Gangland warfare, certainly not his place to do anything aside from being an unwilling participant

- And of course AS proper - where society exerts its pressure, economic and otherwise.

[TooPurePureBoy]

Well...it might not be the most exciting arc of the series but I could watch and enjoy any interaction between Tomoya and Nagisa no matter how mundane.

Seriously. I could watch Tomoya read the newspaper while Nagisa serves him tea for an entire episode and have a warm feeling inside. :heh:

To me this pre-marital bliss arc has been full of win.

[MeoTwister5]

And then reality shows its ugly head.

Which is going to happen in a few.

[Sheba]

Maybe it's just my rose-tinted view of the series speaking, but I'd think that the order of the arcs in After Story so far has been steadily showcasing his lack of control over the events that eventually happen.

- Sunoharas' arc(not Mei's only) - yes he could act as an intermediary or something since he knew both parties well, but how much could he understand about the intricacies of a sibling relationship, given that he is an only child?

- Yukine arc - Gangland warfare, certainly not his place to do anything aside from being an unwilling participant

- And of course AS proper - where society exerts its pressure, economic and otherwise.

Now this is an interesting way to look at the past arcs. It also explain a little bit why some people are not liking Tomoya right now.

[MeoTwister5]

And I think this is what makes his circumstances and the show more realistic and likable.

In short, it's because he no longer has a good control of his own life and circumstances. High school for all intents and purposes is an enclosed and controlled environment where each member in the system can exert his or her own will and greatly affect the system at large.

This isn't the case for human society outside school. So many people, so many ideas, beliefs, circumstances and events that it is impossible for him to will it his own way. Whereas the events in school could be swayed and controlled by his own actions, not everything can be directed by him after graduation.

He was essentially hiw own boss in HS, but in AS not anymore. As the last episodes has shown, he's getting a crash course in life that is often times swept and driven by the tides of society at large. He is only starting out and is only a small ripple in the larger waves.

He's just a man eking out an existence for him and his loved ones in a world much more imposing then he probably had believed. It would be ridiculous to have everything at this point in time revolve around him or have him exert a powerful control. He no longer controls the circumstance, he must now abide by them.

No offense to those who complain about him not taking charge of the story and his life events after school, but this is real life folks, and nothing showcases just how real it is as well as the ogften sad truth that we are only small fish in a larger pond. Having him at the center and command of it all in the name of "making things more interesting" is just a deus ex machina copout of a story that is, above all, about real life itself.

[SwiftStrike]

We got a taste of another characters life, thats a first :D

[Lost-Wisdom]

Fantastic pacing, great ending, and unexpected plot events. The ending was the icing on the cake though, that was flawless.

Nagisa, perfect for him...

[Ottocycle]

And I think this is what makes his circumstances and the show more realistic and likable.

In short, it's because he no longer has a good control of his own life and circumstances. High school for all intents and purposes is an enclosed and controlled environment where each member in the system can exert his or her own will and greatly affect the system at large.
-truncated-

Thanks, I always thought somehow my post was clumsy as hell. This paragraph is more than enough to summarise what I mean.

[OmegaPhlare]

I'll step up in saying the argument going on in here is discouraging me from posting what very little thoughts I might want to post here. When I see something going down, as it has been for the past few weeks, I just mind my own business and stay away.

So, when I saw Chibi state, in reply to a comment from Tenken about the Drama club, "I still think it's bullshit that said goal failed miserably"; I thought to myself, Wow, this guy has a heart of ice and wouldn't think twice about preying on innocent people. Chibi, after reading your post about mistakenly rubbing people the wrong way, I understand that it isn't so horrible like I think it is. You probably don't want to hear it from a stranger on the internet, but you really should try to sound less angry because others' opinions of you are based on your angry-sounding comments.

You take everything to the extreme; even while stepping back you're still fighting the others in saying "come next week a new group of people are at my neck again because I just didn't outright 'rate the episode 10/10' or what have you." Nobody's even suggesting that you should rate these episodes so high. That statement itself implies that the people trying to off your head this week have wanted you to rate it 10/10 and if they wanted you to rate it so high, then they themselves must have given that rating as well. They're not savages and ratings whores... Taking stuff to the extreme makes people like myself believe you're insulting with purpose. The reason I may think you're doing it on purpose is because I myself do that on purpose. If I indirectly slam some person or concept through my unrelated conversation: I certainly did it on purpose and expect some reader to grin at that (unless it's too far off, then that would mean you are reading too much into it).


Oh, and Chibi. I don't really post here often. More often than not I find these forums to be more of a fanboy paradise than a haven for intelligent discussion. Usually the people who try to engage me are incredibly passionate about their views and stop arguing with coherent reasoning. There's nothing more frustrating than arguing against someone with logic only to realize they're arguing with sheer willpower.

@Momosan
I suppose you're having an A-B conversation with Chibi at this point, but I'm disgusted and hurt that you would even think that about other people here. The idea of most (see "More often than not...") people on this forum as being fanboys is saying their opinions should be disregarded on the basis that they are always supportive of their favorite characters. I think the meaning of logic in your case is ambiguous, but most understand that logical arguments are proved through facts. But what facts are there to say about a show we're watching? The only facts are stuff like "The Drama club gave a presentation at the school festival" and not something like "Tomoya is more mature than in season one.": widely accepted but really just an opinion.

Of course everyone here is going to argue with their opinions: there is nothing else to argue. And if there is someone who feels so strongly about their opinion then you should be accepting of it as legitimate. Can you not look at your statement and realize "Hey, I just described everyone who didn't agree with me as unintelligible, incoherent, and unable to use logic." Seriously, that is really damn messed up, like if you're trying to discourage anyone new from disagreeing with you now. I'm only talking about this subject because I put heart and love into what I say, am a huge Nagisa fan, and it wouldn't be nice if anyone was dismissed as a fanboy because they are similar.

---

In general, I hate to say this phrase because it has negative meaning already, but this show "is what it is". If you like the idea of Tomoya being the savior for Fuuko and Kotomi, looking into the past of Tomoyo, or seeing Kyou or Ryou accept that Tomoya already loves someone else, then I think its a safe bet that you would also like to know about the story of Tomoya and Nagisa. This is true for me and furthermore, if I were writing a story I would expect that the people who are reading it will like all of it because I made it in such a way that they should like all of it and not just parts of it. The creators couldn't just make completely different stories and just hope that you like all of them, they expected you to like them and they're right to do that because there are a ton of people here who like all of Clannad and not just some parts. If anyone doesn't like where the story is headed, then the creators certainly were wrong about you. Its hard to stop watching a series, but if you continue watching it after you no longer like it, then you're probably going to pay close attention to everything you don't like about it. If you understand what is really going on here, then please refrain from posting so many of your negative comments.

Notice that I'm really just talking about some opinion and I am indeed trying to get other people to see it the way I see it. It doesn't have any specific aim because I don't have a particular target; from the sound of it there are plenty of people who don't like where this story is going.

[Dist]

Sorry for offtopic but.. Seeing as even the raw isn't out yet, is it so that Ep 13 didn't actually air at Japan this weekend like it usually does ? If so, will the show continue next week normally ?

[Ottocycle]

Sorry for offtopic but.. Seeing as even the raw isn't out yet, is it so that Ep 13 didn't actually air at Japan this weekend like it usually does ? If so, will the show continue next week normally ?
Read the announcement on the Clannad board itself, please.

[Ithekro]

Makes one wonder if they'll change the OP at all.

And replace Kotomi with Fuuko, assuming Kotomi will have little to no more screentime and Fuuko may yet have a part to play in this story. That is if they don't swap Fuuko's roll with Kotomi's (not too likely giving what they did with Fuuko's story...but you never know).

[Beo]

Well, there is the episode 16 title of "lost light".

[Vegard Aune]

Well, there is the episode 16 title of "lost light".
Episode 16? I know that the episode-titles tend to show up online a few weeks ahead of time, but won't it be like, mid-february before that episode actually airs?

...Whatever. On the topic of the opening changing, I'd say it's pretty unlikely. I don't think KyoAni has changed the opening in the middle of a show since FMP TSR.

[Kaisos Erranon]

Well, it would make sense here, given the departure in style and tone from the first half.

[Leo_Otaku]

it would make sense to use the latter half of the opening lyrics IMO

[Myssa Rei]

Oh wow, I've really been out of the loop... When did a discussion on CLANNAD of all things, get so heated?

Slow plot pacing? Character Archetype overuse? Scenario stereotyping? Folks, we're forgetting the genre we're dealing with here.

I don't mind the pace that bad myself, given my preference for slow, Slice of Life shows in my old 'age' -- although I'm barely 28, I've been an anime watcher since fifth grade -- and Nagisa is a likable character. As for Tomoya seemingly changing from the take-charge character he was back in the first season... Well, let's say that you have less control on what you want to do in the real world than the confines of a high school.

[Momosan]

- Sunoharas' arc(not Mei's only) - yes he could act as an intermediary or something since he knew both parties well, but how much could he understand about the intricacies of a sibling relationship, given that he is an only child?

- Yukine arc - Gangland warfare, certainly not his place to do anything aside from being an unwilling participant

- And of course AS proper - where society exerts its pressure, economic and otherwise.

- How could he understand the feelings of a comatose girl wishing the best for her sister? He didn't understand them specifically but would proactively work to better OTHER people's lives which in turn benefitted him.

Fast forward to AS and he's no longer doing much to help anyone else, he's completely focused on himself. Even his proposal was completely self-gratifying and self-centered. Let me put it this way. Change the way the character's look, their names, and the anime name. Would you really think Tomoya from Clannad would be similar to Tomoya from AS? IMO, they're not even remotely similar. I don't mind a change of character, but at least give me an explanation outside of "He has to work to create his own place in society" as he already went through creating a place in school society. He even began that struggle alone while he now has Nagisa as a support and yet he's failing miserably.

-Yukine arc wasn't his place? Since when has it been his place to help anyone? He's never helped anyone because he's been expected to, but because he wanted to. Perhaps he doesn't feel like helping out anymore? I guess the stress of a job and being in love would kill the compassion of anyone... :-/ Actually I don't think he had a job during that arc anyways. Guess he was just bein lazy during that arc.

-He has a job, his own place, a loving companion. His father whom he already acknowledges as trash throws him a curveball and everything crumbles? Sorry, but it seems a little odd that someone who doesn't mind handing out starfish for a ghost would have problems coping something like that. His character has always been firm and resolute, but not anymore. Perhaps it's just my personal disdain for people who pity themselves.

I'm not trying to say anyone here is wrong. I can understand how you see things the way you do, but the reasons you present just aren't suitable to me. I would like something a little more substantial from a show that's been pretty good in the past. It feels like the director is focusing less and less on a cohesive environment and instead is just going to sentimental/romantic scenes to keep the fishies hooked for the next episode.



@ Omegaphlare

Ok, so let me get this straight. You want us to be less rude in how we present our opinions? I want people to be more logical when presenting their opinions. You know why barely anyone responded to the actual content of Chibi or my own posts? They're unpopular and well supported. It's easier to just call us jerks than to disprove our opinions. I have absolutely no problem if someone wants to disagree with me. Actually, to be quite honest with you, I WANT people to disagree with me. I hope someone can enlighten me to a different perspective of thinking. Humbug shared his opinions with me and while I don't agree with them, I respect his opinion nontheless. At least he had the courtesy to address me.

I don't understand why the majority of people come in here and simply post their opinions without discussing anything. Forums aren't blogs, the point is for discussion. If people want to post what they think then they should have the common decency to defend what they post when people disagree. Most people are too submersed in the fanboy mentality to listen to dissenting opinion. You say you feel like not posting to jerks; I feel like not posting to people who have no basis for their beliefs.

Anyways, that aside. Does anyone have any reason outside of having to get a job that would result in a complete character meltdown? The brash, playful, helpful person I grew attached to in Clannad has yet to make his appearance in AS. I doubt someone who had the capability to shoulder his entire messed up life in addition with everyone else's would have problems adjusting to a life with a job. About the only thing that even remotely appeals to my sense of logic is that he feels like he's losing his relationship with Nagisa. If that's the case then it makes his proposal all the more dispicable and further distances him from his established character in Clannad.

[Ithekro]

Perhaps the stress of trying to act like a responsible adult has effected his high school youthful brashness? He seems to be trying to be an adult, to fit into a society that is quite different from High School. However he still has not gotten over every shadow he was running from in High School. His relationship with his father is still broken and within the culture he lives, family and one's relations means a lot still. His focus has shifted from slacking off in class to working and being the responcible one society expects him to be. In doing so he seems to have lost something.

It happens to people when they step out into the larger world...especially if they have no path to follow, no real goals in life. He's more or less on a sort of life support in terms of what his life means to him....Nagisa. He's not yet gotten to the point of seeing the larger family picture, even though Nagisa's parents are there, he's not yet seeing them as part of his family (well they aren't yet, but still...he's with them so much now).

Now maybe things will shift in the next episode, maybe they won't, but I get the feeling we're at a point between times that Tomoya helps others and in turn helps himself (much as the game player would do). The focus is not on someone else's problems, which he seems to be something he can handle, but his own, which it seems that he can't. Maybe helping others was sort of a way to avoid dealing with his own problems. Wouldn't be the first person to go off and join the Peace Corp because they can't deal with their lives at home, and sort of force themselves into trying to become something better for others, and yet not really fixing themselves. He's helping was not quite that extreme, but still, he was focused on helping others, and yet not really confronting his own problems. Nagisa seems to be the one that is working on that problem.

(Of course I could be reading the situation completely wrong, yet somehow that sounds right.)

[Kaisos Erranon]

What I always enjoyed about Clannad was that, unlike MANY visual novels that are adapted into haremesque anime, it was never really about the girls... it was about Tomoya himself.

This is never more clear than in the last third of After Story, heh.

[Momosan]

While I understand the transition can cause stress, from what I've seen it shouldn't make his character buckle like it has. Like I said earlier, I can't even Identify him as Tomoya from Clannad. Perhaps it's because his situation is slightly similar to my own.

I didn't graduate High School on time due to lack of attendance. I was 1/2 a credit, AP Government, short of graduating. The hilarious thing is I passed the AP Exam and was granted 4 credits of collegiate level Government classes, but they failed me in the high school course because I only attended 60% of classes. Because of that I lost all my scholarships and my family refused to help me dig my way out of a "hole I dug for myself." I currently pay for college out of pocket and will most likely have to move cross country and pay out of state fees or join the military. I have no goals in life and merely attend college because I want an education. While I never quite identified with the selflessness that Tomoya demonstrated, I can't possibly begin to understand how finding his place in society would change him this much. I am still very much the same person I was back in High School. If his character is so weak to be warped by such a thing, then really I have no respect for him at all.

[Ithekro]

One thing Tomoya lacks that you are using is deturmination to get education. Tomoya, in a Japanese system, probably can't go to college at this point, and thus has no reason to attempt that goal. So he doesn't even how your fallback of going to classes...he's out in the world now. Nothing else to do but look for work and do work. He has no relationship with his own family from what I can tell (other than his own demons towards his father), and only has Nagisa to fall back on for support (at least in his mind).

The rest of what one could call his safty net is gone...his other classmates. Sure he might be able to find a way to spend time with some of Nagisa's classmates (Tomoyo and such) but he's at work, so he can't really do that either. His own classmates have moved on to something else (even Sunohora).

Thus he's on his own, trying (and failing I suppose) to balance his job with his time with Nagisa, and it seems to be getting to him...probably because he'd rather spend the time with Nagisa, but his own standards of responsibilty that he's imposed on himself prevents that...thus his current state is different from his High School days where he could come and go as he pleased...he's now set on a clock...something I'm not sure he's spirit was up to handling.

[alpie]

-

-He has a job, his own place, a loving companion. His father whom he already acknowledges as trash throws him a curveball and everything crumbles? Sorry, but it seems a little odd that someone who doesn't mind handing out starfish for a ghost would have problems coping something like that. His character has always been firm and resolute, but not anymore. Perhaps it's just my personal disdain for people who pity themselves.


I don't think handing out starfish for a ghost is comparable to losing an opportunity due to your own father. In the case of Fuko's arc, he sympathize Fuko and therefore helps her, if somehow the marriage ceremony didn't go well, etc it doesn't actually affect Okazaki's life. Sure it will be a sad thing, but he wouldn't really be severely affected. It is just sad and nothing else.

On the other hand, losing a better job opportunity is of a more severe impact. This time it actually affects his life, and the fact that he is so excited over it resulted in a even greater impact. He could be thinking about how he could afford a better lifestyle for him and nagisa etc, but in the end all his hopes were dashed because of someone in his own family. That ought to have a greater impact on him then something happening to someone else.

-
Anyways, that aside. Does anyone have any reason outside of having to get a job that would result in a complete character meltdown? The brash, playful, helpful person I grew attached to in Clannad has yet to make his appearance in AS. I doubt someone who had the capability to shoulder his entire messed up life in addition with everyone else's would have problems adjusting to a life with a job.


During the school life arc, he dealt with his screwed up life by avoiding the problems. Remember the episode whereby the teacher wanted to see Okazaki's father and Okazaki simply tried to run away?I think that is a very good representation of how Okazaki didn't actually deal with/shoulder his messed up life and instead ran away from it,something he can't do right now.

And as I said,dealing with everyone else's problems is different from dealing with your own.

[Proto]

I can't possibly begin to understand how finding his place in society would change him this much

Hint: You are getting the order backwards :p

[Myssa Rei]

Anyways, that aside. Does anyone have any reason outside of having to get a job that would result in a complete character meltdown?

It usually happens when one is confronted with a situation they had no control over. In all the previous arcs, Tomoya could at least do something, even if it's just as simple as clearing a lawn of overgrown grass for example. How could you apply that to the humongous problem (as he perceives it) that is his father?

[Myssa Rei]

While I never quite identified with the selflessness that Tomoya demonstrated, I can't possibly begin to understand how finding his place in society would change him this much.

Oh, the Tomoya we all knew from last season is still there, it's just that his priorities have shifted a bit; he's actually thinking of himself for once, and not worrying about other peoples' problems (which I suspect was just him ignoring his own). Also, prior to this mess with his father, he was actually doing well -- the fact that he was singled out for a major position so early into his tenure is nothing to sniff at.

[Ottocycle]

- How could he understand the feelings of a comatose girl wishing the best for her sister? He didn't understand them specifically but would proactively work to better OTHER people's lives which in turn benefitted him.

Fast forward to AS and he's no longer doing much to help anyone else, he's completely focused on himself. Even his proposal was completely self-gratifying and self-centered. Let me put it this way. Change the way the character's look, their names, and the anime name. Would you really think Tomoya from Clannad would be similar to Tomoya from AS? IMO, they're not even remotely similar. I don't mind a change of character, but at least give me an explanation outside of "He has to work to create his own place in society" as he already went through creating a place in school society. He even began that struggle alone while he now has Nagisa as a support and yet he's failing miserably.

-Yukine arc wasn't his place? Since when has it been his place to help anyone? He's never helped anyone because he's been expected to, but because he wanted to. Perhaps he doesn't feel like helping out anymore? I guess the stress of a job and being in love would kill the compassion of anyone... :-/ Actually I don't think he had a job during that arc anyways. Guess he was just bein lazy during that arc.

-He has a job, his own place, a loving companion. His father whom he already acknowledges as trash throws him a curveball and everything crumbles? Sorry, but it seems a little odd that someone who doesn't mind handing out starfish for a ghost would have problems coping something like that. His character has always been firm and resolute, but not anymore. Perhaps it's just my personal disdain for people who pity themselves.

- True, he didn't understand them specifically, and he helped them because he felt like it and you could say that he benefited that way, but at least the tasks on hand in that situation were relatively easy to accomplish and straightforward during that period. How complicated could staying up all night to help carve wooden starfish get? In comparison, he tried to do something when the Youhei-Sanae pseudo-couple thing started to get out of hand. Tomoya did try shock therapy in the lie that Mei was dating him, but shit happened and Youhei's cranium turned out to be lead that's 3m thick. Not to mention Mei's utter stubbornness(I forgot if that was properly portrayed in the anime, sorry I played the game prior) in getting her brother back to the soccer team, that was quite a dumb decision as well I thought.

IMO, the explanation that "He has to work to create his own place in society" still stands, because to me, school isn't a microcosm of society in general, but is actually a greenhouse. All he needed to do all day was to accumulate attendance points and graduate, simple as that. But when he crossed over into the working life, even something as simple as his method of livelihood came into serious question. If you ask me, of course he had the remaining mental fortitude to look out for others back then.

And also in support of that, I'd disagree with the notion that he began any struggle while he was at school. He simply averted the problem with his father aside and went on, doing everything he can in order to distance himself from what he regards as a pox on his life, in the present(simple ignoring) and in the future(moving out eventually), believing it to be the most effortless solution he could find.

- Maybe I used 'not his place' wrongly in that one, my apologies for that. I was trying to say that as usual, no one expected him to do anything, but I do think he still wanted to help nevertheless, but he just couldn't find a point that he could actually put effort upon which yields effective change in the current situation. I was kind of tired back then to talk more about the examples, but in gangland warfare, politics come into play, and certainly the abilities of a single person shouldn't be substantial in the face of a rapidly evolving situation between two warring factions of people, barring the combat ability of Tomoyo and Yukine's brother, or someone with a lot of charisma. Also, if he didn't want to help, why did he stay with Yukine throughout the entire incident? It certainly looked to me that he either was a compulsive busybody, staying on even for something as dangerous as gangland warfare, or he was sticking by a friend, ever ready to render his help should the opportunity present itself.

- Well, you've got to remember, the last time his father threw him a curveball(or rather, into the wall), he lost his place as captain of the school basketball team, and with it the opportunity to carve out a niche for himself where it was the only way. And what could he do about that? Being a difficult problem while he was in his angsty teens, he stopped giving a hoot and avoided the whole thing altogether, and did the least possible to get by.

And now, even with his past delinquency, he was still able to earn his place in society, through his maturing and his little knowledge of the adult world. There is hope, he thought. Then the darned problem he thought he had kept away in the depths of his mind resurfaces like a resurgent former boss in a videogame and scars him permanently, again! To me, the blow that comes after the ray of hope is always the hardest, and combined with the fact that the problem at hand was one he had thought he 'solved', he surely must have felt so tired of life that he felt like ending it on the spot, if he didn't have Nagisa beside him. This is the problem that he in his teens was not able to surmount, mind you, and he knows that. This inherent fear he holds, that he will never be able to go through life with this darned pox potentially turning into a cancer on the rest of his life, should be more than enough for him to turn selfish and yearn for an assurance of support for that same period of time(ie. for the rest of his life), as much as, or maybe more than he wanted to support Nagisa in their future life as a married couple. Thereafter, he combines the two and makes the proposal on the spot.

[Momosan]

Please, don't make the mistake of assuming Tomoya is facing his problems yet. He goes down to see his father after being forced by Nagisa and immeadiatly withdraws to go into a psychotic rage. He hasn't even begun to solve his problem and it's already breaking him. Tomoya has always survived by avoiding his own problems and bettering the lives of those around him. Through that act alone I think he found solace in his existance.

I suppose that brings up the thought that because he hasn't been doing jack for shit for anyone else, that his own personal problems are beginning to overwhelm him since he has nothing else to do to boost his self-esteem. Still, I don't see why Tomoya's character has become so lethargic.

Also, why do people think establishing oneself post high school is so much more important than while in high school? If anything, I think it's quite the reverse. Post high school people really don't care what kind of person you are as it's necessary to tolerate people to function in society. This is not the case in High School where you can be excluded at a moment's notice. Establishing your personality in high school is much more demanding than it ever is in a workforce. Look at his job for example. He has simply done what his tutor has told him to do and the entire workforce has accepted him AND he was suggested for a promotion. Sounds like he's got it pretty rough right now.

The ONLY thing that hasn't gone his way is his dad ruining this job opportunity. Everything else he's done has for the most part has gone according to plan. One little anomoly and his entire character is shattered? I understand Tomoya hadn't conquered the obstacle that was his father, but he had learned to survive with his negative effects for years. I can understand crying and leaning on Nagisa's shoulder. I can understand an outrageous outburst towards his father. I could understand telling his father that he's dead to him and wants nothing to do with him anymore. These are all solutions which adhere to character qualities demonstrated throughout the series. A psychotic outburst of self-destructive aggression is antithetical to everything his character has done and the subsequent proposal is an unfair and selfish request to make towards Nagisa even if she would say yes regardless.

I can understand how some people could react in such a manner to this situation, yet there is no evidence of Tomoya's character possibly reacting this way. It seemed out of place, illogical, and forced.

[Proto]

You are right in that his attitude is difficult to understand considering what the show has shown us from him in the past, and that his reactions seem to only derive from some scattered little hints we have gotten throughout the series instead of the general picture. However that is what the whole concept of what an Achilles Heel is. His weak point. Not only that, but after he has tried his best to get past the worst part in his life, this very weak point came back to haunt him and shatter what he was doing his best to build anew. Not only that, but that very Achilles heel (unfortunately) is one of the cornerstones of his personality, so every time it is touched you can expect everyone's favorite protagonist to go through a minor personality disorder.

This is not something that is limited to Tomoya (in different degrees of course). IMO every person has something to which they are emotionally weak. Be it a certain situation, a person, a place. Some people will react to it by breaking out in tears. Others will just rage out and start punching walls. (That's my case by the way, which is one of the reasons I can identify with the protagonist to a certain point. Including being a normally pacifist person, then punching walls out of the blue because of people touching the wrong buttons. Fortunately I had taken Tae Kwon Do classes for a good part of my life so I knew how to punch things without hurting myself (too much)). Others will go out in a laughing spree. In any case, people need their catharsis. Otherwise you would have more heart stroke cases per year.

The question here is: Do you like heart strokes?


In short, imagine you have a very beautiful wall with a crack in one of its corners. Now grab a hammer and proceed to pound down the damaged corner a few times. Sit down and enjoy the results.

[Ithekro]

Perhaps he was imagining the wall was his father.

[Momosan]

Hrmmm. Well at least I could convince one person that Tomoya is acting extremely out of character. I understand everyone has their opinions on why he's doing so, but none seem concrete enough to validate his actions in my opinion. Perhaps it's because his situation slightly reflects my own yet he's acting exactly opposite of how I would?

I still have faith that the show can change my opinion. I still think that even with this recent character distortion that the show can accomplish great things so I look forward to future episodes.

[Proto]

Perhaps it's because his situation slightly reflects my own yet he's acting exactly opposite of how I would?

It's obvious to me that you never saw that Power Rangers educational capsule where the Power Rangers taught us how it was important for us to be different from each other. Otherwise everyone would be like that bully from the capsule. Do you want everyone to be a bully? Do you?

:p

Random guess of the week: Your lucky word is, empathy.

[Ascaloth]

I can understand how some people could react in such a manner to this situation, yet there is no evidence of Tomoya's character possibly reacting this way. It seemed out of place, illogical, and forced.

Maybe CLANNAD (Season 1) Episode 1 (21:15), Episode 2 (16:37) and Episode 19 (06:44) are too far back for you to remember? Not to mention the numerous occasions where when Nagisa brings up the topic of his father, he tries to avoid it? In any case, your assertion that there is no evidence at all for Tomoya to react this is way is completely false.

Hrmmm. Well at least I could convince one person that Tomoya is acting extremely out of character. I understand everyone has their opinions on why he's doing so, but none seem concrete enough to validate his actions in my opinion. Perhaps it's because his situation slightly reflects my own yet he's acting exactly opposite of how I would?

So you're basically judging Tomoya's reactions as unrealistic solely based on how you yourself would act? That is merely an Argument from Personal Incredulity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance), and does not in any way make your argument true.

[MeoTwister5]

Tomoya is not a machine.

Is it really difficult to believe that a human can act completely and utterly out of character? If we were dealt with a story much shorter, with a shorter past and history it would be far more annoying to see a character act completely out of character, but we have been given a lot of background into his personality.

We aren't computers set on completely logical and unalterable course. It would be ridiculous to see a machine, operating only on set commands and logical drives, act completely against its programming. But these are humans we are talking about. Humans aren't bound completely by the iron grip of logic and programming.

Acting out of character is believable in circumstances. Let's say some student that is usually modest, quiet and soft spoken suddenly began acting like a dipshit because he didn't score the grade he wanted in a test. THAT is OOC in its ridiculous sense.

Clannad season 1 has shown just how varied and often tumultuous Tomoya life has been. A heavily strained parental relationship, school delinquency, getting into fights, a loner lifestyle and at least 1 incident of domestic violence leaves credence to just how potentially volatile his own self might be. If anything, the fact that he didn't become a super angsty and violent teenager is a credit to how he was able to keep himself together. With a life like that, it isn't surprising just how much pain and anger he's supressing inside himself, just ready to explode when shit hits the fan.

And when the shit did hit said fan, can any real person say that he is in absolute control over his senses, self and emotions? Is it ludicrous to believe that emotions can run amock, making a person act like a totally different person?

No it isn't. I've seen just how dark and drastically different people can be once the forces of nature courses through. I've seen totally different people in people I thought I had understood completely. I've been in those shoes myself at least once, with a friend saying that he was "completely shocked and afraid" when I lost it. The human mind is governed both by logic and illogic, making it perfectly possible for either to take control when the chains holding the other comes lose.

At these times sides of ourselves come into view, sometimes sides we just don't show others. Tomoya showed that angry, violent side of himself that he had just reserved for his own father to Nagisa, to her obvious fear. I had come to expect that he would have a side of him that would manifest like that, considering all he's been through, and what would finally push him over the edge would be his own father's incarceration. Tomoya was a bomb ready to explode at that point.

If it were any less an event or a less storied a character I'd have agreed, but he isn't. This is your own father getting arrested FFS. What happened was nothing less than the exposure of that nasty side of him he would be ashamed to show anyone, but he was at his breaking point.

For me if anything, the fact that he acted OOC is a reflection of just how human he is, and not just some human caricature.

@Momosan

Many here have posted reasons why they think Tomoya acting OOC is believable and well very much real. If you think none of those hold water enough to make you consider such a viewpoint as valid, then by all means do so. In the same manner that we aren't also obliged to keep on attempting to defend the character's actions.

And yes, as Ascaloth already stated, the inability to reconcile Tomoya's choice of actions with your own doesn't negate the believability of his choices. Heck, as someone who shares a bit of personal history with Tomoya's character, I would have acted differently in that situation but, maybe because I understand his experiences to a larger extent, can believe and forgive him for what he ended up doing.

[Proto]

We aren't computers set on completely logical and unalterable course. It would be ridiculous to see a machine, operating only on set commands and logical drives, act completely against its programming. But these are humans we are talking about. Humans aren't bound completely by the iron grip of logic and programming.

Geez, you are just begging for people to start a phylosophical debate with you :p

I'd say that this was the most logical course he could have taken given his past experiences, but I guess we would be going OT :p

[MeoTwister5]

Meh. Must be part of my college training. It's been said that the vast majority of the graduates from my University have the habit of dragging out a philo discussion from thin air heh.:p

[Sheba]

People are too used to their fictions, especially the VN-to-anime genre, where the characters gets a character type and nearly NEVER deviate from it through the course of the story. I think that one of the reasons why tsundere get so much fans is that it is one of the character types that offers an illusion of development, while the others like the genki girl, the silent bookworm, the onee-san or the MILF will nearly never deviate, and is giving the impression that they never develop (compared to the tsundere). Heaven forbid the MILF doubt her marriage, the Genki hides a trauma beneath her energetic exterior, or the silent bookworm switch character when she gets a bit too much of alcohol, people will mistake it for OOC! Because it is not allowed by their "programed behavior"!

[RandomFlameStrike]

I don't think Tomoya was OOC at all. If you recall from earlier episodes, Tomoya's attitude when ever anything related to his father was mentioned always turned dark/sour. It seems prefectly natrual to me for Tomoya to blow his top when his father messing things up for him and he can't do a thing about it. He may have had a lot of development character wise where it SEEMS like he wouldn't do anything like this, but his father is a speical case to him. It's his weakness in a sense. Tomoya's a pretty emotional guy too. He did explode in anger vs the gang leader and Sunohara after all.

Also just because Tomoya helped a ghost girl pass out starfish doesn't mean he's become an emotional powerhouse that is able to suddenly look back and clearly reflect on his past wounds. Proactive actions in season 1's school section were all him dealing with OTHER people's problems. When it came to his own issues with his father he always ran away/doged it. In fact, getting into other people's issues and the likes probably provided him with an escape to ignore his own problems and keep him entertained as he slacks off in school. Tomoya probably believed that once he started living alone he could safely avoid his father and not have to deal with the issue. Then suddenly, the one person he hated above all others seems to "buyt in" to his life and screw things up when he least expected it. He wasn't emotionally prepared to deal with the age old festering wounds/feelings.

[Beo]

Its what’s called discretionary time, there is an available amount of time that can be devoted to things beyond your own needs. As life make larger demands, you have to decide what is the most important and focus on those things first. Its not to say that other things are not important but that you can not solve everyone else’s issues at the expense of you own.

If you want to look at it in time alone:
- 11~12 hours for your job alone. actual work, commuting, misc things outside of work in support of it.
- 8 hours of sleep
- 2 hours of meals, house work.

That’s 21~22 hours. What do you want to do with your remaining 2~3 hours of your day? Maybe talk to someone?

[Momosan]

Maybe CLANNAD (Season 1) Episode 1 (21:15), Episode 2 (16:37) and Episode 19 (06:44) are too far back for you to remember? Not to mention the numerous occasions where when Nagisa brings up the topic of his father, he tries to avoid it? In any case, your assertion that there is no evidence at all for Tomoya to react this is way is completely false.



So you're basically judging Tomoya's reactions as unrealistic solely based on how you yourself would act? That is merely an Argument from Personal Incredulity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance), and does not in any way make your argument true.

Ok, addressing the 3 scenes. There was Tomoya running away from the problem in Episode 1, clenching a fist in episode 2 in an unrelated scenario, and acknowledging that he is no longer family with his father in episode 19. All of which he does nothing hostile. I suppose if you want to say Episode 2 was clear foreshadowing of a self-destructive irrational side that won't be expressed for another 30 episodes......

You've not shown me multiple occasions where Tomoya has uncontrollably exploded because of his father. At every instance he's run away or avoided the problem. In AS12 he confronts his father only to do what? That's right, walk away. That was perfectly logical and fine with me. Smashing a wall in blind rage and then proposing moments later... Sorry, the juxtaposition doesn't do it for me.

As for my argument having no basis because I'm judging it solely on personal subjectivity. I don't even know how to respond to that accusation. I outlined multiple reasons why his character would not explode in rage from various arcs in Clannad. The only time he's resorted to any sort of violence is in a misguided sense of helping others and even then as a last resort . If he was going to express some kind of rage he should've been doing it a long time ago. To switch from apathy to rage in an instant without any progressions is just poor directing by the creative staff.

To the many posts who all explained how irrationality is common in the world and therefore acceptable in anime... well I don't really feel like getting into a lengthy discussion on my existentialist philsophies. To put it bluntly, having characters act irrationally is a sign of underdeveloped characters. If Nagisa burst into flames or Tomoya stabbed her in the back next episode would you think that's "totally cool cus it could like totally happen IRL" No, you want your stories to make sense. But hey, so long as it gives a touching scene and supplies a convoluted reason to propose then it's all good I suppose.

I think that adressed most everything aimed at me. If I missed something then lemme know and I'll try to get back to you.

[Ottocycle]

You've not shown me multiple occasions where Tomoya has uncontrollably exploded because of his father. At every instance he's run away or avoided the problem. In AS12 he confronts his father only to do what? That's right, walk away. That was perfectly logical and fine with me. Smashing a wall in blind rage and then proposing moments later... Sorry, the juxtaposition doesn't do it for me.

Well then, you've identified the points where he continually shows his escapism. So, is there a point where things come to a head? Does he think the same and that he's got to finally face it, however he wants to escape yet again?

Personally I think that it's possible and that it just happened to happen this episode.

[MeoTwister5]

@Momosan

To put it bluntly, having characters act irrationally is a sign of underdeveloped characters.

And you've pretty much described him, her, everyone on the show and practically 90% of every human being on this planet. And this, in fact, is one of the pillars of this show.

People in motion towards development, towards maturity.

This isn't a show about wholly mature characters, perfectly rational minds and, as you probably suggested yourself, developed characters. This is a show about people who have a LOT of growing up to do. A show about people who have a lot to learn about controlling their emotions and, above all, people who have a long road to maturity in front of them. None of the scenes before in the show suggest that he a mostly mature person with a sound and rational mind. His lifestyle and attitudes have just gone on showing that he is a swirling torrent of supressed emotions.

Walk away from a confrontation with his father? If there's anything I learned in my still short 24 years of life, walking away or running away from the problem is not the mature and soundest thing to do. Most people would have just exploded then and there, and god knows how many times I've done it. Him punching the wall is a reflection of just how much he was supressing as it was, supressing and running away from his father rather than do something else.

Was it the mature thing to do? No, of course it wasn't, but having supressed all those emotions inside by just running away at night like a deviant, it all has to go somewhere. Like the law of mass conservation, it all has to go somewhere and take space. When all the space is gone, all the stuff has to end up somewhere else. Unluckily for him it had to be at a brick wall.

Switching from apathy to rage in an instant? Yeah, it would be unbelievable if I hadn't seen it before. I'm sure a good lot of people have seen others switch between polar opposites of emotions in a blink of an eye, once enough stress has been dealt. I had a fist in my gut the last time I was on the receiving end of such a bipolar occurence, so I only know too well how real irrationality can be. Emotional stress is by far one of the greatest sources of pressure on the mind and on the heart, and by far too the greatest source of a fragile emotional state that can easily switch from state to state.

I think what your trying to put here is that you think that the series should follow at the least a pattern of logical predictability and rationality.

Well from the get go, this series was never meant for that. The characters have already shown to follow certain irrational paths from the first season. Heck, having the Illusionary World and some of that pseuodomagical mumbo jumbo is itself a sign that this isn't as predictable as some would want.

No human follows true logic in a state of real, and even preceived, emotional stress. None. I would be FAR MORE displeased if the characters acted like a puppet controlled by emotional and rational setpieces. I would, in fact, find it even more unbelievable for a human to acted in a completely sensical manner given the events presented to him.

The scene doesn't make sense from a purely rational perspective, but again, is pure rationality everything to be expected out of human beings? That is not to say that not making sense is always excusable, there are times that it is not, but not everything will always make sense. If there's anything I've learned about life making sense at this point, it's this:

10% of life makes sense, 20% makes sense after a while, 20% of life makes no sense to begin with, and the last 50% you'll realize will just make your brain hurt trying to figure shit out. In a way I've come to learn how to look at some things from a sensical and nonsensical point of view.

From my sensical pointof view, Tomoya lashing out is undisciplined, crude, immature, somewhat violent, unnecessary and downright embarassing.

From my nonsensical point of view, it itself just a reflection of how uncontrolled and immature his emotions and problem-dealing abilities are.

And by unifying both my sense and nonsense, tells me that this is a man who is still undisciplined, crude, immature, somewhat violent as a result of supressed emotions gone haywire. He is a man with still so much to learn.

Just like me, everyone on this board, and everyone else on the planet.

[Sheba]

He bottled up all the stress from the announcement by the phone call, he could not let vent his rage at the POLICE station of all place (let's no mention the awfully stressful night and little sleep he may have gotten). Once he was outside with nobody but Nagisa to see him, he could let his rage explode. Not that OOC from my point of view.

[Ascaloth]

Ok, addressing the 3 scenes. There was Tomoya running away from the problem in Episode 1, clenching a fist in episode 2 in an unrelated scenario, and acknowledging that he is no longer family with his father in episode 19. All of which he does nothing hostile. I suppose if you want to say Episode 2 was clear foreshadowing of a self-destructive irrational side that won't be expressed for another 30 episodes......

You've not shown me multiple occasions where Tomoya has uncontrollably exploded because of his father. At every instance he's run away or avoided the problem. In AS12 he confronts his father only to do what? That's right, walk away. That was perfectly logical and fine with me. Smashing a wall in blind rage and then proposing moments later... Sorry, the juxtaposition doesn't do it for me.

Fallacy of Negative Proof (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_proof) arising from a Fallacy of Over-narrow Definition of Proof (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacies_of_definition#Over-narrow_definitions). You are attempting to dismiss the evidence I have brought up to support my argument that Tomoya does have basis for his explosive behaviour, by claiming it as irrelevant for not fitting within your overly-narrow definition of evidence for such an argument. Sorry, you have to do better than that.

As for my argument having no basis because I'm judging it solely on personal subjectivity. I don't even know how to respond to that accusation. I outlined multiple reasons why his character would not explode in rage from various arcs in Clannad. The only time he's resorted to any sort of violence is in a misguided sense of helping others and even then as a last resort . If he was going to express some kind of rage he should've been doing it a long time ago. To switch from apathy to rage in an instant without any progressions is just poor directing by the creative staff.

However, it just so happens that practically all of the reasons you outlined to support your argument can basically be summarized as your personal disbelief that a person who bottles up his/her emotions for a long time and finally explodes like Tomoya could possibly exist. That is what the Argument from Personal Incredulity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance) is all about.

Of course, it's entirely possible that I might have missed whatever few (if any) points you've made that doesn't make this particular fallacious assertion, so you'll have to point them out to me again, if they even exist.

[gengar]

wah long posts no offence>.<
i enjoyed ep 12
cant wait for ep 13:)
heard tht it will be released ard 12 jan

[RandomFlameStrike]

Well, most of the time when he "escapes" from the problem he also is angry and wishes his dad was diffrent. He claims that he has nothing to do with his dad anymore, but there's also dissapointment.
There was a skiped game scene that showed Tomoya's anger at his dad. Nagisa finally convinced Tomoya to go vist his dad, and he reluctantly agrees to go with her. Things are peachy although a bit strained. Then, a shaddy person just happens to have an appointment with his dad and he claims to be a "business friend". Tomoya catches on that this person is bad news and kicks him out. He gets so mad that his dad was bumbing around and dealing with bad people, you even get an option to "punch something" (LEADS TO BAD END!!). If you hold it in he shakes with rage untill(And another yelling fest at his dad like in ep 2) Nagisa comes in and calms him down. He finally decides to just try and ignore his dad and they leave. Later, when he forgets all about his dad and is celebrating his upcoming promotion, he gets a call that his dad was involved in ILLEGAL DEALINGS LOL. Then the scene in ep 12 occurs.

[Ithekro]

I may have missed it, but what does Tomoya's father do for a living?

[Kaisos Erranon]

I may have missed it, but what does Tomoya's father do for a living?

It never says in the game.

[Aza-oniichan]

My opinion, tomoya is at fault. he should resolve his "grudge" for his father early. His father is already at depression, moreover, his son refused to acknowledge him. His father may think "i have nothing else, nor a hope". Tomoya knows this situation, he should at least motivate his father rather than keeping distance.

one thing, Did someone have ever experienced as same situation as tomoya's?

[Sheba]

My opinion, tomoya is at fault. he should resolve his "grudge" for his father early. His father is already at depression, moreover, his son refused to acknowledge him. His father may think "i have nothing else, nor a hope". Tomoya knows this situation, he should at least motivate his father rather than keeping distance.

one thing, Did someone have ever experienced as same situation as tomoya's?

It is way more complex than you can think. The father is equally at fault for not properly taking care of his son after the accident that took his wife. Then there were the incident forcing Tomoya to stop basketball. If you ask me that's a lot of reasons for Tomoya to not have much faith and trust in his own father.

[MeoTwister5]

Well we haven't gotten to the part yet where the story finally reveals the history of Tomoya's father, so stay tuned until then.

[Momosan]

Fallacy of Negative Proof (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_proof) arising from a Fallacy of Over-narrow Definition of Proof (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacies_of_definition#Over-narrow_definitions). You are attempting to dismiss the evidence I have brought up to support my argument that Tomoya does have basis for his explosive behaviour, by claiming it as irrelevant for not fitting within your overly-narrow definition of evidence for such an argument. Sorry, you have to do better than that.



However, it just so happens that practically all of the reasons you outlined to support your argument can basically be summarized as your personal disbelief that a person who bottles up his/her emotions for a long time and finally explodes like Tomoya could possibly exist. That is what the Argument from Personal Incredulity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance) is all about.

Of course, it's entirely possible that I might have missed whatever few (if any) points you've made that doesn't make this particular fallacious assertion, so you'll have to point them out to me again, if they even exist.

Actually I don't have to do any better. You simply listed off a few episodes without any explanation on how it reinforces your thesis. You left the interpretation open to me so I interpretted it for you. In rebuttal you simply tell me I'm wrong because I analyzed your ambiguous evidence. You may jerk off to your own rhetoric at night, but that's not enough make me back down. If you wish to prove your point then I would love for you to supply sufficient evidence portraying Tomoya as an aggressive and self-destructive person from Clannad.

Also, I never said people who bottle up their emotions cannot let them out in an explosive manner. I said that in all mannerisms demonstrated by Tomoya an explosive outburst of aggression is irrational and therefore indicative of an underdeveloped character. Do you think MLK or Ghandi punched walls when things didn't go their way? People who release emotions in self-destructive ways have mannerisms that clearly foreshadow such a characteristic. Tomoya hasn't demonstrated those mannerisms and therefore his outburst is quite OOC and irrational which simply throws the entire episode off for me.

So perhaps if you're done putting words in my mouth you can step off your pedestal and actually support your claims instead of trying to write my opinions off as illogical trash.

[Sheba]

If you wish to prove your point then I would love for you to supply sufficient evidence portraying Tomoya as an aggressive and self-destructive person from Clannad.

Also, I never said people who bottle up their emotions cannot let them out in an explosive manner. I said that in all mannerisms demonstrated by Tomoya an explosive outburst of aggression is irrational and therefore indicative of an underdeveloped character. Do you think MLK or Ghandi punched walls when things didn't go their way? People who release emotions in self-destructive ways have mannerisms that clearly foreshadow such a characteristic. Tomoya hasn't demonstrated those mannerisms and therefore his outburst is quite OOC and irrational which simply throws the entire episode off for me.



He did show he could lose his temper when it comes to his father, in one of the first episodes of S1. It just never went as far as pushing him to punch the wall. It was hinting a tension that was between father and son since that incident. Tomoya then simply dealt with it by running away from his father, so this negativity doesn't overwhelm him. Moreover, I would like to see someone calmly walking away and not wanting to wreck public property when someone in his family just busted his one chance to social promotion.

And wow for comparing the paragons of pacifism to a ex-delinquent.

[Ascaloth]

Actually I don't have to do any better. You simply listed off a few episodes without any explanation on how it reinforces your thesis. You left the interpretation open to me so I interpretted it for you. In rebuttal you simply tell me I'm wrong because I analyzed your ambiguous evidence. You may jerk off to your own rhetoric at night, but that's not enough make me back down. If you wish to prove your point then I would love for you to supply sufficient evidence portraying Tomoya as an aggressive and self-destructive person from Clannad.

My thesis? What thesis? As far as I know, the only thesis I made was one on how your interpretation of the events leading up to Tomoya's explosion was based on fallacious logic, the specifics of which I have already outlined and linked sources to in my previous post. If the only reply you can muster up to my pointing out the fallacies you have made is to add a Straw Man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man) and an argumentum ad hominem abusive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem) to the fallacies you have previously committed, then frankly such a reply is not much of an counter-argument.

Also, I never said people who bottle up their emotions cannot let them out in an explosive manner. I said that in all mannerisms demonstrated by Tomoya an explosive outburst of aggression is irrational and therefore indicative of an underdeveloped character. Do you think MLK or Ghandi punched walls when things didn't go their way? People who release emotions in self-destructive ways have mannerisms that clearly foreshadow such a characteristic. Tomoya hasn't demonstrated those mannerisms and therefore his outburst is quite OOC and irrational which simply throws the entire episode off for me.

Adding a False Analogy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_analogy) to your list of fallacies committed isn't exactly helping your argument either. Moreover, simply reasserting the argument on points that I have already pointed out as fallacious in logic, without any attempt to prove otherwise, counts as an attempt at Proof by Assertion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_assertion), which is also yet another logical fallacy. Moreover, your statement that Tomoya's previous mannerisms are non-indicative of the explosive behaviour he later exhibited have already been pointed out (with supporting evidence) by several others, including myself, to be not the case; that you continue to refuse to take such evidence into account while reiterating your stand is just another indication of the Fallacy of Negative Proof (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_proof) arising from a Fallacy of Over-narrow Definition of Proof (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacies_of_definition#Over-narrow_definitions) that you are basing the entirety of your argument on, as well as your tendency for attempting Proof by Assertion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_assertion) statements.

So perhaps if you're done putting words in my mouth you can step off your pedestal and actually support your claims instead of trying to write my opinions off as illogical trash.

While I may not actually be making my own argument supported with my own points to refute the thread of your argument, simply pointing out the fallacious logic that you have based your argument on constitutes sufficient refutation of your arguments in itself. Attempting to argue otherwise merely constitutes a Style-Over-Substance Fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Style_over_substance_fallacy), and has no bearing on the actual content of my refutations of your points in itself.

[sikvod00]

Ascaloth, is it really necessary to state and provide links to every logical fallacy you find when arguing with someone?

[Ascaloth]

Ascaloth, is it really necessary to state and provide links to every logical fallacy you find when arguing with someone?

Maybe not, but it's just how the way of debate I'm developing is. Besides, it keeps me more entertained and helps me keep a cool head better than the normal style of debate does. ;)

[sikvod00]

^That's cool I guess. I was mainly asking because linking all those fallacies just seemed like extra work to me. I agree with most of your points regarding Tomoya though.

[Proto]

Maybe not, but it's just how the way of debate I'm developing is. Besides, it keeps me more entertained and helps me keep a cool head better than the normal style of debate does.

I used to be like that back in 2003, but I burned out after 2 years, (too bothersome). Now I resort to sarcasms and just hinting my debate counterpart over where the points I disagree with are. The people who don't pick up the hints would have been too bothersome to debate with anyway. Plus experience has told me that winning debates through sheer logic tends not to work over the long term :p Specially if you start thinking that representing your opponent points through symbolic logic is a good idea.

[Ithekro]

There is also the annoying trend for some of these debates to no longer be about the subject matter, but more on not losing the argument, even if you are wrong, and know you are wrong. That is when it becomes futile.

[Kaisos Erranon]

There is also the annoying trend for some of these debates to no longer be about the subject matter, but more on not losing the argument, even if you are wrong, and know you are wrong. That is when it becomes futile.

The ugly truth behind all arguments on the Internet.

[MeoTwister5]

As a wise man once said, a flame war on the internet is like the special olympics.

Win or lose, you're both still retarded.

(no offense of course to people with mental disabilities)

@Momosan

Actually I don't have to do any better. You simply listed off a few episodes without any explanation on how it reinforces your thesis. You left the interpretation open to me so I interpretted it for you. In rebuttal you simply tell me I'm wrong because I analyzed your ambiguous evidence. You may jerk off to your own rhetoric at night, but that's not enough make me back down. If you wish to prove your point then I would love for you to supply sufficient evidence portraying Tomoya as an aggressive and self-destructive person from Clannad.

I'll echo what Ascaloth had already said since I probably can't type it as eloquently, but it's just as he has said, it's not a matter of ambiguity or interpretation but as a matter of FACT. He pretty much listed evidence that are factual events inside the story's timeline, factual evidence of his own emotional mindset and attitudes, independent on whether or not you have your own interpretation of things.

The problem is again that you are disagreeing even against factual evidence based on your own preconceived notions on what IS and what SHOULD be proper behavior as is most likely limited by your own world-view of human possibility. Basically, on what fact is. No two people have the same world view and no two people will ever have the same 100% opinion on an issue, but even then people concede that there are things that may be found in another person's viewpoint that he doesn't consider possible in his.

The fact of the matter is this: Evidence has been presented that support his potential for self-destruction (heck I'd disagree with one of the events Ascaloth pointed out, but that's a discussion for another thread), it is indeed fact as is observed in true to life cases of normal and psychiatric patients (I myself have seen a similar case in the psych ward), but your adamant refusal to accept it, much less even tolerate such a possibility existing outside your own scope of reality, as limited by your own personal judgement no matter how much it is supported by evidence, only leads this argument nowhere.

I've seen this discussion too many times before, on the internet and IRL. One side will present a mountain of fact, the other side will negate the facts by virtue of "I cannot see it in such a way", and the cycle proceeds ad nauseum.

This is no longer a debate on facts but a debate on perception, and we all know where these things go.

Also, I never said people who bottle up their emotions cannot let them out in an explosive manner. I said that in all mannerisms demonstrated by Tomoya an explosive outburst of aggression is irrational and therefore indicative of an underdeveloped character. Do you think MLK or Ghandi punched walls when things didn't go their way? People who release emotions in self-destructive ways have mannerisms that clearly foreshadow such a characteristic. Tomoya hasn't demonstrated those mannerisms and therefore his outburst is quite OOC and irrational which simply throws the entire episode off for me.

And this, once again, stems from your assumption that people must strictly follow a set pattern of logical mannerisms. You are expecting people who are matured and developed enough to follow a set line of action in order to control and/or explode their emotions in a way fitting your own notions of how a man explodes or implodes. Must every pattern of self destruction follow "logic"?

This is once again a problem of perceptions and experiences. You're most likely assuming that people must indeed follow a set road and mannerisms towards potential explosive behavior based on your notion that people will, and people must. That Tomoya does not follow these set manners that you believe he must, then he is automatically written of as poorly written and poorly characterized. That we perceive such explosive manners as possible and acceptable based on human reality of irrational judgement and action, we classify him as an underdeveloped and immature individual.

No one is debating that he is underdeveloped and immature, we accept the fact that he is. You're assuming that an underdeveloped and immature character acting out in illogical and irrational manner free of observable mannerisms and actions simply cannot exist and is therefore a result of poor writing. You are, again, limited by your own world view that no such people can exist.

The fact of the matter is again: such people do exist. I am living proof of such an existence, and so are many of my friends, acquaintances and many other strangers who have gone down this road of pain and suffering. Whether or not you will acknowledge that such actions can happen is really up to you, but perception does not alter fact, and the fact is that such people do such things as a fact of life, whether you accept it or not.

And really come on, do you really know MLK and Gandhi with such intimate knowledge that you know that they are or are not capable of such explosive anger? That is a silly and ridiculous argument and assumption right there that makes your argument even less believable, if not less valid.

[Ascaloth]

I used to be like that back in 2003, but I burned out after 2 years, (too bothersome). Now I resort to sarcasms and just hinting my debate counterpart over where the points I disagree with are. The people who don't pick up the hints would have been too bothersome to debate with anyway. Plus experience has told me that winning debates through sheer logic tends not to work over the long term :p Specially if you start thinking that representing your opponent points through symbolic logic is a good idea.

Ahaha, I went through that phase, too. You might even say I'm still going through that phase. The reason I developed the 'fallacy' style of debate is because I realized I don't actually have to convince the other guy; I just need to show everyone else how the other guy's arguments are logically defective to kill his credibility in the debate. ;)

[Beo]

Take a deep breath and count to ten.

[Ithekro]

:eyebrow: Someone attributing humans to logical behavior? A sometimes irrational species that tends to let their emotions control them in a highly illogical manner.

[Kaisos Erranon]

:eyebrow: Someone attributing humans to logical behavior? A sometimes irrational species that tends to let their emotions control them in a highly illogical manner.

Oooh. Oooh. I learned about this in Sociology class.

Something about how we like to think we're rational, but every single thing we do proves that we aren't, and how if we were truly rational, we'd all kill each other out of paranoia. Or something.

[Proto]

I just need to show everyone else how the other guy's arguments are logically defective to kill his credibility in the debate

Hmm... in that case you may be losing sight of what a debate is actually for :p I was once there as well though, so I understand that that trap is very easy to fall into.


Something about how we like to think we're rational, but every single thing we do proves that we aren't, and how if we were truly rational, we'd all kill each other out of paranoia. Or something.

Of course our behavior is always rational. It's just that sometimes the model we rationalize under tends to be extremely minimalistic when compared to the real thing.

[Kaisos Erranon]

Of course our behavior is always rational. It's just that sometimes the model we rationalize under tends to be extremely minimalistic when compared to the real thing.

Errr... how did the argument go again... curse my poor recall for material I don't care about...


Basically, the concept of trust is non-rational in nature.

See, if you think about it, the most rational thing to do in any situation is to look out for yourself above all others, because doing so helps you survive longer. Extending this logically, if you think this way, you would naturally think that everyone else would be looking out for number one as well. This would, in turn, create a society of backstabbers that would quickly fall apart.

Or something. I forget.

Blech, sociology is depressing. In a nutshell, it's basically "humans suck and there's nothing we can do about it".

[Ithekro]

I get the feeling you had a bad sociology teacher. That or history proves that logic to be false. Because logically, if we follow you method, we lead to self destruction, and civilization is designed to keep this from happening though the needs of the many. More in a group can survive better than a lone individual, especially in the wild since out species has few natural defenses against predators until we developed civilization and tools to negate our disavantages. Humans only become the top predator when we have access to our tools. Take those away, and then take away a social network....most humans would die alone.

[Kaisos Erranon]

I get the feeling you had a bad sociology teacher. That or history proves that logic to be false. Because logically, if we follow you method, we lead to self destruction, and civilization is designed to keep this from happening though the needs of the many. More in a group can survive better than a lone individual, especially in the wild since out species has few natural defenses against predators until we developed civilization and tools to negate our disavantages. Humans only become the top predator when we have access to our tools. Take those away, and then take away a social network....most humans would die alone.

I think the point was that society is non-rational even though we believe it to be.

I'll copy what the book says when I have time tomorrow.

[cbatty]

I think we all need another episode - and soon...

Speaking of which, when is the next ep due out?

[Ottocycle]

All you need to do is to look here (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=75601).

[radioIzzy]

Clannad is on a roll. This is gonna be a classic like Kanon.

[Momosan]

Ascaloth, I'd reply to your statement but once again you've done nothing to disprove my theories. I don't need you to tell me why you think my arguments use logical fallacies. All I want is for you to prove to me through factual evidence (like you tried in your first post) that Tomoya is self-destructive.

Someone said he showed a tendancy in AS1 to anger. Like I said, I don't identify Tomoya in AS as Tomoya in Clannad. Change the names of chars/animes/etc and you wouldn't be able to tell they were actually the same show. Sounds like good character developement. OMG Was that a logical fallacy? Please Ascaloth come save me and tell me which one it was.

Also, to everyone saying I'm just narrow-minded and refuse to accept a differing opinion. Please, for the love of whatever god you believe in, supply me some FACTUAL evidence from CLANNAD which depicts him acting in a self-destructive manner. Stop telling me how it's cool to act irrational and why. I know WHY he's doing it, I think it's retarded and uncharacteristic for him to be doing it. In AS all he's done is fight people or passively sit by and watch other people sort out their own lives. This change has no explanation.

[Sheba]

Someone said he showed a tendancy in AS1 to anger. Like I said, I don't identify Tomoya in AS as Tomoya in Clannad. Change the names of chars/animes/etc and you wouldn't be able to tell they were actually the same show. Sounds like good character developement. OMG Was that a logical fallacy? Please Ascaloth come save me and tell me which one it was.



Well, if you CONVENIENTLY decide so, it's no use trying to reason with you.



Also, to everyone saying I'm just narrow-minded and refuse to accept a differing opinion. Please, for the love of whatever god you believe in, supply me some FACTUAL evidence from CLANNAD which depicts him acting in a self-destructive manner. Stop telling me how it's cool to act irrational and why.

Stop putting words in our mouths! We never said that. We basically said, "IT HAPPENS"!

Like I said above, if you are conveniently going to ignore the small clues and small things that shows that Tomoya is not as calm as a monk, what the point of us arguing or showing the evidences?

Protips: Clannad and Clannad AS ARE supposed to be two parts of a bigger all. Sort of like the big shounen staples like dragon ball, or a recent example in the mahou shoujo genre, Nanoha. As in, we were sitting and watching characters grow. Each part may be different but the characters are the same and the shows together are all parts of the bigger picture.

[MeoTwister5]

Ascaloth, I'd reply to your statement but once again you've done nothing to disprove my theories. I don't need you to tell me why you think my arguments use logical fallacies. All I want is for you to prove to me through factual evidence (like you tried in your first post) that Tomoya is self-destructive.

Someone said he showed a tendancy in AS1 to anger. Like I said, I don't identify Tomoya in AS as Tomoya in Clannad. Change the names of chars/animes/etc and you wouldn't be able to tell they were actually the same show. Sounds like good character developement. OMG Was that a logical fallacy? Please Ascaloth come save me and tell me which one it was.

Also, to everyone saying I'm just narrow-minded and refuse to accept a differing opinion. Please, for the love of whatever god you believe in, supply me some FACTUAL evidence from CLANNAD which depicts him acting in a self-destructive manner. Stop telling me how it's cool to act irrational and why. I know WHY he's doing it, I think it's retarded and uncharacteristic for him to be doing it. In AS all he's done is fight people or passively sit by and watch other people sort out their own lives. This change has no explanation.

Wow... just wow...

None of us said it's cool to be irrational and violent as he has, I even said it's not a proper way of doing things, so if you're trying to rebut us by assuming we're insulting your intelligence and doublespeaking our statements then I have no idea how to even explain things to you...

By the way, we are already pointing out to you that it is YOU who are refusing to accept the evidence as fact even when they are, indeed, fact, and everyone else has agreed that to those facts. Just because you blatantly and adamantly refuse to accept them as fact despite everyone else's effort to point them out to you is no longer our problem nor an inherent issue with the evidence at hand. The validity of fact is inherent to the evidence and NOT to your interpretation of their validity.

In short, you simply refuse to accept the validity of the factual evidence, which makes your demand that Ascaloth and whoever else who isn't tired of this by now completely to supply said evidence ridiculous, circular and pointless. As long as you're mindset is that such evidence is not factual by your method of interpretation, then nothing we can do will change your interpetation, and I'm just hoping that you realize that.

[Ascaloth]

Ascaloth, I'd reply to your statement but once again you've done nothing to disprove my theories. I don't need you to tell me why you think my arguments use logical fallacies. All I want is for you to prove to me through factual evidence (like you tried in your first post) that Tomoya is self-destructive.

Unfortunately, I don't see the need to acquiesce to your demands; I have already laid out the evidence I have at my disposal, which was already sufficient to prove my point and disprove yours. I was merely pointing out that your attempt to discount my evidence was a form of Fallacy of Negative Proof (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_proof) arising from a Fallacy of Over-narrow Definition of Proof (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacies_of_definition#Over-narrow_definitions), and thus an entirely invalid attempt by its nature. Therefore my point still stands, and yours don't.

Someone said he showed a tendancy in AS1 to anger. Like I said, I don't identify Tomoya in AS as Tomoya in Clannad. Change the names of chars/animes/etc and you wouldn't be able to tell they were actually the same show. Sounds like good character developement. OMG Was that a logical fallacy? Please Ascaloth come save me and tell me which one it was.

Sure, what you just attempted was a statement relying on a Proof by Assertion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_assertion), with a dash of Appeal to Ridicule (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_ridicule) at the end.

What? You asked me to tell you which fallacies you were using. :cool:

Also, to everyone saying I'm just narrow-minded and refuse to accept a differing opinion. Please, for the love of whatever god you believe in, supply me some FACTUAL evidence from CLANNAD which depicts him acting in a self-destructive manner. Stop telling me how it's cool to act irrational and why. I know WHY he's doing it, I think it's retarded and uncharacteristic for him to be doing it. In AS all he's done is fight people or passively sit by and watch other people sort out their own lives. This change has no explanation.

So let's see....Fallacy of Negative Proof (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_proof) arising from a Fallacy of Over-narrow Definition of Proof (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacies_of_definition#Over-narrow_definitions), check. Straw Man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man), check. Appeal to Personal Incredulity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance), check. Proof by Assertion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_assertion) in what seems to be an attempt at argumentum ad nausem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_nauseam), check.

Come, friend, you may either prove that your statements are not fallacious in nature, or you may retract them. Failing that, we can do this all day, to the further detriment of your credibility, and not mine. ;)

[Ottocycle]

Please, for the love of whatever god you believe in, supply me some FACTUAL evidence from CLANNAD which depicts him acting in a self-destructive manner.
What about what he was doing prior to the first episode? That's some thoughts someone would have if he just gave up.
In AS all he's done is fight people or passively sit by and watch other people sort out their own lives. This change has no explanation.
He fought people. Point taken. He sat by. Point taken. But was it passive? If it were, we wouldn't even see him appear.

[Ithekro]

Hmmm. Three days and the argument continues, eh? The only thing in this which sets off an alarm is the following description: "Contemplative Jerk".

Does that mean that you are still trying to contemplate the issue, or have decided to be a jerk because you don't feel like you lost the argument, or feel you can't lose the argument, thus must show your superiority by repeating the challenge that has already been taken?

Whichever it is, it seems doomed to failure.

Any game veterans want to chime in? Surely there is in game evidence of Tomoya's reactionary ways. Just from the anime he seemed to be on a path to self-destruction before he got close to Nagisa. Every time basketball, his father, or his shoulder comes up, he seems to be depressed. Even when Nagisa wants to see him shoot the basketball in the rain, he seems like he's on the verge of something self-destructive...Nagisa going down before he gets to that point likely prevented him from punching the pavement until it hurt in shame. I believe he also sounds like he reacts negatively anytime his father is brought up, or he is forced to interact with his father. A visible rage. I don't recall him being shown to give it an outlet to his anger, but I'm not looking at the episodes at the moment. It may just be that until this point in time (since the day his shoulder was broken) Tomoya has not had so much "taken" from him by his father's actions...and thus the internal rage festered more than it normally would. It needed on outlet. The wall was convenient. At least he didn't take it out on Nagisa.

[Beo]

Enough of the argument, take it some place else and do it in private. At this point it does not matter who is in the right, it all looks like a street brawl.

[Proto]

Please, for the love of whatever god you believe in, supply me some FACTUAL evidence from CLANNAD which depicts him acting in a self-destructive manner.

Since I don't love any God at all, i'll just redirect you to a random segment: Season 1, Episode 1, first 15 seconds.

[Momosan]

"I hate this city, it's full of memories I want to forget about." - A clear allusion to self-destructive nature?

Ok Ascaloth, I suppose we're not trying to argue the same thing. You can keep linking around if you'd like.

"Cool" wasn't meant as you guys think it's totally rad, but as in you guys are ok with it. No one here seems to be upset about the persona switch besides me. If everyone thinks it's awesome for Tomoya to act differently with no clear history why then that's perfectly fine.

Argument recap - I stated nothing has really happened that would cause some kind Tomoya's reaction to his father. He has always run from the problems his father presents. Everyone says "Yeah well the shit has been bottled up so long it finally got let out." Ok, if that's the case I would like someone to show me where Tomoya vents his aggressions in self-destructive ways. No one does, I'm told "People act irrationally, it makes the character more realistic and believable." Cool, if you like irrational characters then I'm sure you'll love the rest of AS. Personally I'll be cringing everytime I see Tomoya drift further and further from his established character.

As for my title, anyone who disagrees with the popular opinion is labeled a jerk. I've considered and addressed most points presented to me so I've contemplated various perspectives at least enough to discuss the topic. Makes me a contemplative jerk.

[Proto]

"I hate this city, it's full of memories I want to forget about." - A clear allusion to self-destructive nature?

Remove the 'clear' and the question mark and we will have a starting point where we can argue from :)

Everyone says "Yeah well the shit has been bottled up so long it finally got let out." Ok, if that's the case I would like someone to show me where Tomoya vents his aggressions in self-destructive ways.

I bolded the clue word for you.

[Ascaloth]

Argument recap - I stated nothing has really happened that would cause some kind Tomoya's reaction to his father. He has always run from the problems his father presents. Everyone says "Yeah well the shit has been bottled up so long it finally got let out." Ok, if that's the case I would like someone to show me where Tomoya vents his aggressions in self-destructive ways. No one does, I'm told "People act irrationally, it makes the character more realistic and believable." Cool, if you like irrational characters then I'm sure you'll love the rest of AS. Personally I'll be cringing everytime I see Tomoya drift further and further from his established character.

Yet another attempt at Proof by Assertion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_assertion)? Dude, I know I said that we could do this all day if you want, but if you're not even going to try a different fallacy, this gets boring even for me after a while. :p

Oh well. Sleep time. Be back later.

[Sheba]

There are few people who disagreed with the popular opinion, expressed their reasons why some parts of After Story needed more efforts in execution, especially in the "show" vs "tell" issue.

However, it did NOT make them jerks, it never came to my mind to label them as so. Why? I don't know. Perhaps they knew how to get their points across w/o insulting the viewers' intelligence like it seems to happen with those who end up to be classified as "jerk"?



Cool, if you like irrational characters then I'm sure you'll love the rest of AS



How do you expect us to give you due respect because your opinion is different if you fling snide remarks against the viewers?

[Ascaloth]

How do you expect us to give you due respect because your opinion is different if you fling snide remarks against the viewers?

Oh, wait, the guy DID throw in an argumentum ad hominem abusive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem#Ad_hominem_abusive) as well. I missed that the first time round, must be because it's late here. :heh:

[Ithekro]

As for my title, anyone who disagrees with the popular opinion is labeled a jerk. I've considered and addressed most points presented to me so I've contemplated various perspectives at least enough to discuss the topic. Makes me a contemplative jerk.


Sometimes those that disagree with popular opinion are not labeled jerks, they are labeled "fools". Sometimes "fools" are correct, from a certain point of view. However their views tend to stretch the view of the situation...sometimes to the point of their truth only being true for a limited amount of time (between instance A and instance B..two seconds before the truth becomes false).

There is a historical example of an time the Austrian Army "defeated" Napolean. They gave him a few hours breather for collect himself...that was enough for his reinforcements to arrive and he defeated them (I wish I could remember the battle's name). It was another French victory.

A fictional example is the Battle of the Grassy Plains (Battle of Naboo, Star Wars), the Gungan Army was defeated and being rounded up when fate takes control and hands them victory. However most people would say the Gungans lost the actual battle. A few will say they won the battle because of the outcome.

However the difference in this battle verses Napoleon's is that the French just needed time and then proceeded to defeat their enemy on the battlefield. The Gungans had no chance at defeating the droids on the battlefield at that point, nor was the remains of their army long for this world (being rounded up)...it was an external event would changed the losing battle to a won war. The Gungans lost the battle, but won the war would be the popular view I would think. The inverse is not quite true for Napoleon. He lost the battle...for a few hours, and then won victory because his enemy did something foolish...and Napoleon still won that war and the battle.

What does this have to do with CLANNAD? Beats me.

Best guess is that what one person sees as evidence is either not seen, ignored, or not viewed as proof of an instance to another person. If two people cannot agree of the evidence they are debating, is it really a debate anymore, or simply two (or more) people going "Yes. It is./No. It isn't." which is not really a conductive argument.

[rave_master16]

Calm down, guys. ^^. By the way, maybe this will help. The source of this is Wikipedia, though.
Self-destructive behavior may manifest itself in an active attempt to drive away other people. It may be used to end a romantic relationship in this way. Often, the person so acting feels that for whatever reason they are incapable of, or undeserving of, a relationship with the person they seek to drive away. They often hold this person in particularly high esteem, and do not wish to 'harm' them by creating or maintaining a connection with them.
Tomoya has tendencies like this in the first season. With all the girls around him start showing their feelings.

Successful individuals may self-destructively sabotage their own achievements; this may stem from a feeling of unworthiness or from a desire to repeat the "climb to the top."
Being a basketball star, and being unable to continue. Tomoya became a delinquent. The first 15 seconds of season one tells a lot about this.
Really the climb to the top reminds me that, after he met Nagisa, he really changed a lot.

[velvet]

Sorry for bringing this up again, but;

1st season, when his father touched the dangos he coloured for Nagisa,
this was one of tomoya's outburst.

that and,


When he hit his arm against the wall,
he refused to see the doctor out of anger.

"Even though it was really painful,
I manage to gather my strength and head to my room and closed the door.
It was already too late when I came to see the doctor...


Not sure though.

[Ottocycle]

"I hate this city, it's full of memories I want to forget about." - A clear allusion to self-destructive nature?

Isn't it a fact that he continued living in this town and letting his bad memories eat away at him, living a life which holds none? He could have done something about it. Even run away, as he's usually done. But he didn't. How constructive is that?

[king12354]

Zzz, if you believed Tomoya was ooc now, you'll really hate him later. :/

[patient_senses]

"I hate this city, it's full of memories I want to forget about." - A clear allusion to self-destructive nature?

Ok Ascaloth, I suppose we're not trying to argue the same thing. You can keep linking around if you'd like.

"Cool" wasn't meant as you guys think it's totally rad, but as in you guys are ok with it. No one here seems to be upset about the persona switch besides me. If everyone thinks it's awesome for Tomoya to act differently with no clear history why then that's perfectly fine.

Argument recap - I stated nothing has really happened that would cause some kind Tomoya's reaction to his father. He has always run from the problems his father presents. Everyone says "Yeah well the shit has been bottled up so long it finally got let out." Ok, if that's the case I would like someone to show me where Tomoya vents his aggressions in self-destructive ways. No one does, I'm told "People act irrationally, it makes the character more realistic and believable." Cool, if you like irrational characters then I'm sure you'll love the rest of AS. Personally I'll be cringing everytime I see Tomoya drift further and further from his established character.

As for my title, anyone who disagrees with the popular opinion is labeled a jerk. I've considered and addressed most points presented to me so I've contemplated various perspectives at least enough to discuss the topic. Makes me a contemplative jerk.

All the posts you've made about Clannad are negative. You HATE Nagisa who is the main lead, and now you're trying to make an illogical point about the other main character. Tomoya has obviously been self-destructive since the first episode of last season. He hit his bedroom wall in the last season. He would have hit anything to take out his anger. Time and time again he showed evidence he was about to burst, but managed to maintain it. Well, it finally exploded. There's a first time for everything.

Why am I even bothering to try to prove a point to you? No one agrees with you. You should just stop watching or at least stop posting about Clannad. Everything you say is negative about it. You nit pick at everything.

[Zenemis]

Tomoya's general lifestyle in S1 was self-destructive as well, what with the frequent truancy and disregard of the school rules and environment.

[Beo]

You realize that there now will be a response, it feeds the argument. Best is to not to acknowledge anything and just let it go.

[Domo]

I loved this episode because it truly shows the depth to Tomoya's and Nagisa's relationship. Despite the lack of the rest of the cast, I do feel this episode was able to touch me emotionally, which is rare of an anime series. :p

Overall, I'm pleasantly enjoying how CLANNAD ~ After Story ~ is playing out.
[spoiler removed by a moderator]

[Ottocycle]

I loved this episode because it truly shows the depth to Tomoya's and Nagisa's relationship. Despite the lack of the rest of the cast, I do feel this episode was able to touch me emotionally, which is rare of an anime series. :p
*Spoiler Truncated*
Let's not have game spoilers clog up these episode threads please.

[RandomFlameStrike]

Since Momosan seems to have missed it:

I don't think Tomoya was OOC at all. If you recall from earlier episodes, Tomoya's attitude when ever anything related to his father was mentioned always turned dark/sour. It seems prefectly natrual to me for Tomoya to blow his top when his father is messing things up for him and he can't do a thing about it. He may have had a lot of development character wise where it SEEMS like he wouldn't do anything like this, but his father is a special case to him. It's his weakness in a sense. Tomoya's a pretty emotional guy too. He did explode in anger vs the gang leader and Sunohara after all.

Also just because Tomoya helped a ghost girl pass out starfish doesn't mean he has become an emotional powerhouse that is able to suddenly look back and clearly reflect on his past wounds. Proactive actions in season 1's school section were all him dealing with OTHER people's problems. When it came to faceing his own issues with his father he always ran away/doged it. In fact, getting into other people's issues and the likes probably provided him with an escape to ignore his own problems and keep him entertained as he slacks off in school. Tomoya probably believed that once he started living alone he could safely avoid his father and not have to deal with the issue. Then suddenly, the one person he hated above all others seems to "butt in" to his life and screw things up when he least expected it. He wasn't emotionally prepared to deal with the age old festering wounds/feelings.

Well, most of the time when he "escapes" from the problem he also is angry and wishes his dad was diffrent. He claims that he has nothing to do with his dad anymore, but there's also dissapointment.
There was a skiped game scene that showed Tomoya's anger at his dad. Nagisa finally convinced Tomoya to go vist his dad, and he reluctantly agrees to go with her. Things are peachy although a bit strained. Then, a shaddy person just happens to have an appointment with his dad and he claims to be a "business friend". Tomoya catches on that this person is bad news and kicks him out. He gets so mad that his dad was bumbing around and dealing with bad people, you even get an option to "punch something" (LEADS TO BAD END!!). If you hold it in he shakes with rage untill(And another yelling fest at his dad like in ep 2) Nagisa comes in and calms him down. He finally decides to just try and ignore his dad and they leave. Later, when he forgets all about his dad and is celebrating his upcoming promotion, he gets a call that his dad was involved in ILLEGAL DEALINGS LOL. Then the scene in ep 12 occurs.

Also many other people have presented eveidence that supports the reaction Tomoya made. You seem to be only focusing on Ascaloth's arguments, but he is just trying to point out the logical wrongs about YOUR argument only. He has presented eveidence that supports Tomoya's so called "illogical" actions, but you say that it isn't enough and just ignore all the other posts about it. Ascaloth's logical problems are all valid too, but you don't seem to understand why despite the well link definitions XD. You also have to take into account that Tomoya is a delinquent who has gotten into fights before. He only just recently "reformed" and we see a lot of his better moments in the anime. I think your view on Tomoya's mind set is wrong. You said that he only "passively watches or gets into fights (Fighting = not self destructive at all!)". Generally his thoughts/outlook on life used to be very bad so this isn't ooc. Just look at ep1, or even the basketball game, he was emoing about not having a place untill the last minute when Nagisa yelled for him and reminded him of his new place in life. Then later, his hated father comes in and ruins said place, why the heck would he NOT be angry? In season 1 you see him be all goody goody because he was never in a situation that warrented his anger! He doesn't act any "diffrently" in ep 12 since if he encountered a situtation of similar magnatiude/meaning to Tomoya any time in season one he'd react with anger.

Well quick summary
1. Tomoya hasn't encountered a problem of this nature before since he was beaten up by his dad and had his shoulder broken. (Which he reacted too with self destructive anger)
2. Tomoya is prone to emotional outbursts when the stress really builds EX: Dad vs Tomoya when his shoulder was broken (Lol the aftermath is obv self destructive), Ep2 Tomoya yelling at his dad for no reason, Sunohara vs Tomoya, Tomoya vs the Gang leader, and other scenes in the game.
3. Tomoya's though process goes negative concerning everything about his dad, there is also a lot of anger and dissapointment, not apathy. My basis for this info from the game and I'm assuming that Tomoya thinks the same way in both versions. It's not "Lol just stupid dad being dad" that goes through his mind but "OMFG WTF U DOING (ANGER UP!)" So he encounters a problem with his father, "runs", anger builds, and in ep 12 it boils over. It's the 2nd time were his dad directly interfeared with the progess of his life. If you compare his first reaction to his dad screwing his life with the 2nd, it seems very consistant to me.

[Momosan]

Random Flamestrike, apparently you haven't been reading what I've said either. You were addressed in my last post. You think it's perfectly fine for Tomoya to punch walls. I accept that fact. If everyone here wants to believe his character can act in a self-destructive way then that is fine. People CAN have differing opinions on the matter. If someone wants to convince me otherwise, I have only one request.

Show me Tomoya being self-destructive (That is inflicting physical harm upon himself out of rage) from Clannad.

Yes, I know Tomoya is an idiot in AS. That's why I like Tomoya in Clannad and not in AS. Apparently no one finds it odd that for 30 episodes he could handle stress and now for no apparent reason he can't. If you wish to think "It's all just piling up and he can't cope" then kudos for you. I disagree completely for reasons stated previously.

@ Patient Senses: I'm a troll because I have negative thoughts on an anime and voice those thoughts? You're the epitomy of what's wrong with anime discussion. I simply stated what I believe about the anime and then explained why I feel that way. People have grown heated that I won't yield to their way of thinking. I've stated multiples times that it's perfectly fine for other people to disagree with my opinion. All I asked for them was to provide factual (I.E. From Clannad such as an episode/scene) where he acted in a self-destructive way. People have refused to do so; reason being there are none. I think it's been incredibly poor character development from Clannad to AS and I can barely identify the shows as linked.

That being said, at least episode 13 didn't suck quite so hard. In fact I actually enjoyed Tomoya's return to his old self. I half expected him to cripple himself with the bat when he got struck out. Of course that would be completely in character and when Nagisa popped out in a nurse's outfit with a giant syringe we could all have a huge laugh and praise the new creative direction.

P.S. The last sentence was a troll just to give you an example of the real deal.

[Ascaloth]

Yes, I know Tomoya is an idiot in AS. That's why I like Tomoya in Clannad and not in AS. Apparently no one finds it odd that for 30 episodes he could handle stress and now for no apparent reason he can't. If you wish to think "It's all just piling up and he can't cope" then kudos for you. I disagree completely for reasons stated previously.

Reasons which I have already pointed out as being based on fallacious thinking, and therefore entirely invalid. Most people here are disagreeing with you because they really cannot see the logic in your opinion; it has nothing to do with whether we agree with your opinion or not.

@ Patient Senses: I'm a troll because I have negative thoughts on an anime and voice those thoughts? You're the epitomy of what's wrong with anime discussion. I simply stated what I believe about the anime and then explained why I feel that way. People have grown heated that I won't yield to their way of thinking. I've stated multiples times that it's perfectly fine for other people to disagree with my opinion. All I asked for them was to provide factual (I.E. From Clannad such as an episode/scene) where he acted in a self-destructive way. People have refused to do so; reason being there are none. I think it's been incredibly poor character development from Clannad to AS and I can barely identify the shows as linked.

Once again, you resort to a Straw Man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man) of the arguments made by those who disagreed with you. You asked for factual evidence of Tomoya showing self-destructive tendencies, which a number of us have been more than happy to oblige. It was you who attempted to Move the Goalpost (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalpost) by dismissing the evidence we brought to the table through a Fallacy of Over-narrow Definition of Proof (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacies_of_definition#Over-narrow_definitions).

[RandomFlameStrike]

My post was meant to show that there's a logical process behined Tomoya's wall-punching and it didn't come out of no-where like you said. He doesn't inflict physical harm on himself before since there was never any situation before that made him react that way, I tried to show that because of his way of life and his actions that it IS a likely way for him to react given the situation. If that isn't good enough then it's exactly like Ascaloth said with his logical stuff.

[Sheba]

Self-destruction of an individual DOESN'T HAVE to be physical! Look at the people affected by PTSD whose erratic behavior eventually led to the destruction of their family when they could not deal with the trauma. Ok, an example in the series is Tomoya's dad, the poor man could not get over his wife's death, and now look at how low he have dropped.

[Klashikari]

Show me Tomoya being self-destructive (That is inflicting physical harm upon himself out of rage) from Clannad.

Yes, I know Tomoya is an idiot in AS. That's why I like Tomoya in Clannad and not in AS. Apparently no one finds it odd that for 30 episodes he could handle stress and now for no apparent reason he can't. If you wish to think "It's all just piling up and he can't cope" then kudos for you. I disagree completely for reasons stated previously.
So, Self destructive tendency must rely on evident physical harm upon oneself?
That is really a narrow minded request of proof you ask here. People already have shown you that Tomoya was never good with his father and got a gut frustration over that fact.
Remember one thing: Tomoya is a delinquent, and the reason behind that is not as shaddy or unreasonable as you are trying to portray.

The whole series has shown Tomoya being a lazy bun, completely nonchalant to what is going around him, until Nagisa has grown on him with the rest of the cast.
Tomoya, despite being revealed as a benevolent guy, is erratic with his own life: he does not care about himself as he didn't prepare his life until he had finally the resolve to do so.

This has quite an emphasis with what he was labeled back at school, being a delinquent: gossips etc, yet he didn't care. Not like he feel it pointless, but rather how he feels himself fine with such statement.
When Tomoya fled from his house after Naoyuki tried to get close to him with the dango, Tomoya was ROAMING at night, aimlessly. Instead of confronting his father, he simply run away without giving a second thought nor being able to resolve the matter for his father, but also for his own sake, until he meets again Nagisa.

This is quite obvious with his behaviour after he finally got a job: he learned how it is difficult to live past being a kid. So he finally stop doing the jackass and prepared his life, for both his own sake and Nagisa's. Yet his old demons related to Naoyuki weren't resolved, which is why Nagisa was bringing the matter as a clockwork during both season.

Tomoya HAD a self destructive behaviour, as he was unable to cope anything related to his father. Instead of doing things for his own good, he just "aimelessly" live, until something changed. First, he helped Nagisa out of boredom, and only afterwards, he understood what is the "bound" you share with people.
It took time for it, yet despite so many efforts, he failed because... of a totally unrelated factor he had no responsibility with, haunting again.
Also, please don't begin to state "he suddnely couldn't withstand that": His father ruined his possibility for a better job. By such extent, he ruined the possibility for Tomoya to lead a life he wishes for Nagisa and himself. You of course cannot have everything the way you want, but he did his best for their sake, and Naoyuki just appeared out of nowhere, stomping all his efforts. That not only reignite his hatred for his father, but also his own frustration and his unability to get free of such image he was encased for so long.

Tomoya was a flawed character from the very beginning and used the easiest escape method for his own problems for most of the time.

If you still can't comprehend all of these clues which were given for more than 1 season, I wonder what do you expect from Tomoya after his whole background and growth. To my point of view, it seems you are flately compare "Lol Tomoya is helping girls like a superman" and "Lol tomoya smashed his fist into a wall for no reason". Please at least compare the CIRCUMSTANCES and the mindset in both kind of situation!
That is exactly similar to people who claim that Nagisa is the same "retarded moe blob", despite the difference between her in episode 1 of S1 and right now is like day and night.

I believe at this point, agree to disagree would be the better option, but the way you openly brush everyone's argument without much points on your own side is probably the reason why people get quite unnerved.
A rondo of the same arguments without being listened, stumbling into deaf ears, is probably one of the most frustrating situation in a debate.

[Momosan]

Rondo? As in Water Rondo? Mog was a badass.

Anyways, yes if you want to interpret self-destructive that way then you could. I've been clearly disucssing his physical outburst as the problem. I've acknowledged his self-defeating ways of coping with problems. That hasn't bothered me, punching walls bothered me. I can understand people misinterpretting me in the last couple posts, but that's only because people keep discussing things unrelated to the point I was trying to make.

Remember, this all started with me saying the whole punching the wall scene is very un-Tomoya like. I asked people to supply evidence showing him as a raging agression type. Instead of doing so people simply explained why he punched the wall. I know WHY he did it, it just doesn't flow well with his character IMO.

[Klashikari]

Rondo? As in Water Rondo? Mog was a badass....yes, sure, very funny.
Remember, this all started with me saying the whole punching the wall scene is very un-Tomoya like. I asked people to supply evidence showing him as a raging agression type. Instead of doing so people simply explained why he punched the wall. I know WHY he did it, it just doesn't flow well with his character IMO.Tomoya punched the wall of his house when Naoyuki was just touching the dango Tomoya prepared for Nagisa. He had an exaggerated outburst, just when his father was "trying to help him".

And right here, his father ruined the best opportunity for him to get a promotion and a better life.
The reason is much more worth of angish. So why are you complaining he hits a wall with his fist after such reason, but you are not questioning the fact he punched the wall just because Naoyuki approached his attempt to get close with Nagisa?

COMPARE!


Naoyuki wants to "socialize" with Tomoya, and help him for the dango = Punch in the wall (OK)
Naoyuki did something bad enough to be imprisoned, did not explain himself and ruined Tomoya's life opportunity = Serious punch in the wall... NOT OK? hah?


If you know WHY, how can you not see the scale of the damage then? The damage done by the reason supplied already by this episode is far greater than before, yet you are puzzled by his reaction?

His reactions towards his father were always escalating more or less, except when Nagisa was there to act as an innhibitor, yet the catalyst in such scene was much more powerful. Therefore, the result was plain normal. And I believe we already gave enough material to conclude that Tomoya can have hard time to govern his own emotion and his self destructive/hatred side of himself.

Ironically enough, his punch in the wall back in season 1 would have been much more OOC by your standards then.

[Ascaloth]

Remember, this all started with me saying the whole punching the wall scene is very un-Tomoya like. I asked people to supply evidence showing him as a raging agression type. Instead of doing so people simply explained why he punched the wall. I know WHY he did it, it just doesn't flow well with his character IMO.


Affirming the Consequent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent). You are reasoning here that "raging aggression types" punch walls, Tomoya punched a wall, therefore Tomoya is a "raging aggression type". It is a formal fallacy in that there is no good reason to establish such a conclusion, even if the premises may be true. Therefore, such a logical process is invalid.

[Momosan]

Remember the episode #? Don't worry, I'll make up some BS excuses to keep fanning the flames of hatred. I just don't want to fully reveal my troll nature yet.

Ascaloth, I've ignored your posts for the most part, but your last one doesn't even make sense. I never said Tomoya was a raging aggression type. If anything I said he is NOT a raging aggression type. I wanted people to show me him as a raging aggression type so it would make sense for him to punch a wall. Seriously, why put so much effort into something when you can't even do it right?

[Miles Teg]

Remember the episode #?

Episode 2, season 1.

[Ascaloth]

Ascaloth, I've ignored your posts for the most part, but your last one doesn't even make sense. I never said Tomoya was a raging aggression type. If anything I said he is NOT a raging aggression type. I wanted people to show me him as a raging aggression type so it would make sense for him to punch a wall. Seriously, why put so much effort into something when you can't even do it right?

Well, I thought you would at least be able to deduce where I'm going with my last post, but since you're trying to argue semantics with me instead, okay, I'll spell it out for you down to the last detail.

What I neglected to add, since I'm so damn sick of pointing out the same mistake you made so many times, is that you are making the Aristotelian-era Petitio Principii (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question) that if a person hits a wall, he/she MUST be an "raging aggression type". Because you made this particular fallacy, you go on to Affirm the Consequent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent) that since Tomoya hit the wall, he was showing signs of being a "raging aggression type"....which is uncharacteristic of his prior behaviour. In fact, your assuming that Tomoya was being uncharacteristic for hitting the wall is based on the Aristotelian-era Petitio Principii (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question) that only "raging aggression types" hit walls, when you have not (and could not) specifically prove that this is the case.

It doesn't really matter if you ignore me; I'm not out to convince you, I'm merely pointing out your logical fallacies to everyone else. Of course, you may feel free to try and save what remains of your credibility by first checking your own argument for fallacies, and weeding them out before making it.

[Ithekro]

So we have a direct correlation of punching wall events between season one and season two: with episode numbers. Can this be considered a proof now?

Or does this have to degrade into giving scene numbers before one is willing to even check the proof?

[RandomFlameStrike]

Random Flamestrike, apparently you haven't been reading what I've said either. You were addressed in my last post. You think it's perfectly fine for Tomoya to punch walls. I accept that fact. If everyone here wants to believe his character can act in a self-destructive way then that is fine. People CAN have differing opinions on the matter. If someone wants to convince me otherwise, I have only one request.

Show me Tomoya being self-destructive (That is inflicting physical harm upon himself out of rage) from Clannad.

Yes, I know Tomoya is an idiot in AS. That's why I like Tomoya in Clannad and not in AS. Apparently no one finds it odd that for 30 episodes he could handle stress and now for no apparent reason he can't. If you wish to think "It's all just piling up and he can't cope" then kudos for you. I disagree completely for reasons stated previously.

@ Patient Senses: I'm a troll because I have negative thoughts on an anime and voice those thoughts? You're the epitomy of what's wrong with anime discussion. I simply stated what I believe about the anime and then explained why I feel that way. People have grown heated that I won't yield to their way of thinking. I've stated multiples times that it's perfectly fine for other people to disagree with my opinion. All I asked for them was to provide factual (I.E. From Clannad such as an episode/scene) where he acted in a self-destructive way. People have refused to do so; reason being there are none. I think it's been incredibly poor character development from Clannad to AS and I can barely identify the shows as linked.

That being said, at least episode 13 didn't suck quite so hard. In fact I actually enjoyed Tomoya's return to his old self. I half expected him to cripple himself with the bat when he got struck out. Of course that would be completely in character and when Nagisa popped out in a nurse's outfit with a giant syringe we could all have a huge laugh and praise the new creative direction.

P.S. The last sentence was a troll just to give you an example of the real deal.

Ugh your problem is that you keep asking for SPECIFIC evidence that only fits your small criteria. I tried 2 posts prior to say that Tomoya's self destructive actions were perfectly in character and cited previous scenes but you brushed it off since he DIDN'T EXACTLY use violence. Beside's ep 2 season 1 scene where Tomoya punched the wall in anger just because his dad tried to help him with dango, there aren't any scenes where he acts in EXACTLY such a manner. BUT, that doesn't mean he is ooc just because he does act like that in ep 12. In the post I qouted you said you found it odd "that for 30 episodes he could handle stress and now for no apparent reason he can't." The thing is, he isn't handleing the same type stress for 30 eps. I tried to say that it wasn't like that. For the past 30ish eps he wasn't forced to deal with any kind of situation directly relating to his life/his dad like this. So before this you don't know how he would react if his dad suddenly messed with him. Erhm never mind there IS proof. He was angry and had fights ALL the time with his dad before highschool(Not shown in eps but in ep 1 or so I think Tomoya explains his past relationship, it's also in the game and mentioned in the manga). Then after his dad broke his shoulder and he acted in self destructive anger and defiance, refusing to go to a hospital. Then in ep 2 he yells at his dad and punches a wall just because his dad uses an honorific to adress him. I have also said before that Tomoya bursts into violence when angered, and that he was extreamly angered by ep 12. Thus, another reason why punching a wall in anger isn't ooc.

I'll ask you something too, supply evidence of a time when Tomoya was angered to such an extent and he didn't show hints of violence. Or evidence of a time where Tomoya was put in a situation that would have caused him to rage and he held it in. In Clannad season 1 he had nothing to be mad about in Fuuko's arc (Sad, yes, but not mad), nothing to be mad about in Kotomi's arc, he didn't rage at the choir club since he understood Nagisa(He doesn't understand his dad), helping Tomoyo was fun for him, and the at end with Nagisa's drama performance there was no reason for him to get mad. All the times where Nagisa or the teacher encouraged him to meet his dad were totally diffrent situations from his dad screwing him over (Something I've said before).


Remember, this all started with me saying the whole punching the wall scene is very un-Tomoya like. I asked people to supply evidence showing him as a raging agression type. Instead of doing so people simply explained why he punched the wall. I know WHY he did it, it just doesn't flow well with his character IMO.

You keep saying that you don't care about people's explinations concerning "why" he did it, but you said that he is OOC. Well explaning why he did it also explains why it isn't ooc/why it DOES flow with his character. I think you also have a misconception about what his character is like, but you aren't listening to people trying to explain why Tomoya isn't the way you think he is. I'm not saying that it's WRONG to have a diffrent opinion, I'm trying to tell you that your opinion is incorrect and stateing my reasons with facts.