Claymore Chapter 87

[chibamonster]

@Fenrir_valindri: I agree there has to be something that accounts for the difference in powers. There is a huge difference in powers that no training accounts for. That was what I was talking about for potential. And there are experimental Claymores that seem to break the rules. Clarice is called a failure by many, even though I doubt that is her ultimate end. The AB's confirm that failures were found in the early days of the organization. Alicia and Beth are experimental in many ways, especially because they have had their personalities and very souls messed with. Clare is of course the queen of experiments. We know the organization gets rid of most of their trainees anyway because they are unable to become "battle ready".

The reason I think the human heart is the center of the story is because that is what the story is about. It is one of the most central themes of Claymore. The human part, not the youma part, determines if a Claymore is offensive or defensive. The human part is what they lose when they awaken, though it varies from case to case as some AB's hold some of their humanity and all definitely hold their personality and desires (like Rosemary). The human part is what defines them. They want to die as humans. Teresa wanted Clare to live as a human. Raki is a representation of the good of humans. Ophelia separated her human and AB form for a moment and regained her humanity. The contrasting side of this is of course the monster in each of the characters.

I remember a post where you talked about the awakened form being a manifestation of a characters personality. (sorry I didn't feel like looking it up) I heartily agree with this theory. I just think it expands to the whole of a claymore, not just their awakened form as the awakened form is the end, not the beginning of their development as a hybrid.

For the sisters and the twins, it seems to me there is a lot of experimentation with them. Raph and Luciella failed again because of the central theme of the story; the human heart. It wasn't a lack of power as Luciella managed to still be an Abyssal. Now Alicia and Beth, to remedy the failure with Luciella, were taken as infants and had their personalities drained out of them as they were taught to kill the enemy and merge their souls. Taking control of their human heart and personality. Possibly to forge it into a claymore of true strength? Just speculation. But I think Miata's incredible strength has something to do with her youth, insanity, and mother complex.

Even with Clare, the only character in the entire series who we know what was used to make her a Claymore, the real aspect here in her development is her human heart. Both as a human meeting Teresa, and as a Claymore meeting Raki, Clare found more of what being a human was and it saved her. Teresa and Raki showed her love and hope, Raki even saved her from awakening. Elena expired before Clare because she thought power was to be had in her youki, but the truth was true strength in the world of Claymore is found in ones human heart.

As I mentioned before, I don't think a character's personality is something we can easily judge as the characters are so different. Jeans loyalty and nobility could be counteracted by her self sacrificing and weak leadership (yes she is a great person, but a poor leader as she worries about her troops to the point it hurts herself and them). It seems that Characters who are driven come closer to their own potential; Miria believing in herself thanks to Hilda's advice and friendship, Undine frustrated with her own weakness in her friends death raised to number 11, Yuma taught to fight confidently and relied upon really shown in the recent chapters. As Deneve tells us, sad stories are not uncommon among claymores. I just think that it is not unrelated that youki, which can merge a characters very soul, is effected heavily by the human heart. Youma have youki. Claymores have exponentially more. What do Claymores have that youma do not? They have a human heart.

Would it be impossible to say in your theory it is a characters personality and desires that effect their "compatability"?

[Fenrir_valindri]

I think the strength of the human heart is vital for the development past the initial "compatibility," there is no denying how important the human "heart" is when Claymore is concerned, our Fab 4 (+Jean) are a great example of this.

But my theory mostly has to do with initial power, which I don't believe has much if anything to do if anything with the human heart, however the future development of that power is a completely different story.

How long a Claymore is able to hold onto their humanity to actually develop and mature of course relies on them having a strong mind and heart to keep hold of their humanity. (Not overusing Yoki helps)

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I would guess that the Human heart is there to "leash" a Claymore's development and to prevent them from going too far (AKA overusing Yoki and shortening their human lifespan), this way their power can develop correctly (Yoki-less development of abilities) instead of incorrectly (over reliance on Yoki that eventually leads to awakening)

Yoki (Active) is like giving yourself an artificial boost of adrenaline with the side effect of eroding your human mind, which will eventually lead you to awaken.

Think of it like an extremely addictive drug, it takes a large amount of willpower to control such a thing, especially when it easily accessible; overdosing on it can be disastrous

------.

Yoki (passive) is what we have when you compress (conceal) your Yoki and allow the modified body itself to develop naturally (with training)

Yoki (much like adrenaline, or natural ki) is innately in a Claymore's body, and thus it is undeniably part of them and effects their level of strength, but that doesn't mean they should "burst" it and wear their minds down.

What the Ghosts (if unintentionally) have done is starved themselves of an easy boost to power and forced their modified bodies to develop properly, thus the reason the Yoki-less Yuma who was ranked 40 is able to easily defeat a teen ranked Claymore, and Clare and Miria rival the strongest single digits in strength.

[SuperiorX]

well here is something different for you guy i em preaty sure that org is getting the claymore swords shipped to the island as they can not b made on it and i em thinking that org has another branch on main land that may be pursuing different or taking a different approach to research and thus i em thinking that they have also sent some of their own material over so the island org can take look at and observe the results in an controled environment this may also explain the neglect that current gen of claymores and their status as inferior to previous gen.

and the question is who is delivering the goods it obvioulsy has to come by a ship and thry a secret location and information from the main land must be arriving thry this method to as i dont see org fellas using mobile phones.

[dunames]

i think u guys have this ofensive type and defensive type all miss up. whether they r offensive or defensive have nothign to do with the current personally. the ORG just classified the claymore defensive if they are able to regenerate their lost limbs and offensive if they are superior at reattaching them rather then regenerating a new one. so if anythign the ORG know very well whether a claymore is Defensive or Offensive cause it have nothing to do with their fighting style. if anythign during the training process, the ORG probably cut off every claymores hand to est if they are offensive ro defensive. offensive will generaly just reattach their hand while defensive will fail to reattach their hand but can just regenerate a new one. whether u r a defensive or offensive is decide durign teh hybriderzation period. during the time when then yoma fresh was introduce and still in it earlie fusing period, it somehow interact with the human subconcious and determind it it a defensive or offensive person. like Orphilia said, at that point in time, as a person, if u atk to survive, then at that point, u are a offensive type and yoma ans it fuse witht he claymore will give that claymore the ability to quickly reattach any cut off limb. at that point if the claymore deeply in her heart and subconcious deeply choose to defend herself to survive, then the yoma as it fuse witht eh claymore will give the claymore the ability to regenerate.

also keep in mind that the ORG dotn cata the claymore def/off base on their personality or fighting style. that catagory was made base on their ability to regenerate or reattach cut off limb. we see that clare can quickly reattatch cut off limbs. even if clare made a 180' turn around and becoem totally defensive. always on teh defense, avoid fight at all possible, survivign through defendign only and would never againt go on the offensive ever again, that still doesnt change the fact that clare have the ability to reattatch her limb and is superior at it that at regenerating a new one.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

@Gangsta Spanksta: I was seriously considering not responding because that post is so dumb:D. Let's not trust anything in the story and make it up ourselves. Fantastic. I'll get the tea cups. You get the blankets for the fort. We will meet in the fanfic thread for a party.

I gave you several different options for what I thought on Riful's statement (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=2155742&postcount=482). I even explained what I would think if I had to take the statement at face value, believing it fully. I am not explaining away what is in the story to make it fit some crack pot theory. And you should re-read the chapter where Deitrich follows Helen and Deneve. It seems you missed some points for what actually happened...

It seems to me that your fan fiction mind has made the story more fluid than it really is. Well if it fits your stories great :D. It probably makes them more enjoyable. Fan fiction is a great way for people to enter the story world and stay there. I am just not very interested in it. I am much more interested in figuring out how the author creates a coherent and moving story world.

Ah come on now, lets not poison the well and try to disclaim someone's opinions by throwing the word "Fan Fiction" around, making it seem that they are some kind of crackpot fanatic who can't have a valid theory because they are influenced by fan fiction. I have not once said that your theory is invalid, or that you don't have some logic behind it; I'm just not sold on it. I just see things differently from you, and I've realized we've reached an impasse here in that I'm not going to change your position and you're not going to change mines, since we both have a theory setup with some logic, but see things a bit different. I believe what Riful said was true; you think she misconceived things. That really is the heart of the opposing view points here. If what Riful said was true, then potential is a variable; if what she said was false, then potential is a constant. Our difference in opinion does not lie in fan fiction, but on whether we believe Riful or not. At this point of time there isn't enough data to prove or disprove her or prove either theory. There are things we can use to support our theories, sure. Like Dietrich is good support for your theory, but that she is able to keep up with Helen and Deneve with endurance can be explained in other ways, and we are forgetting that some people speculated that Dietrich maybe a half awakened too.

Now Cynthia and Clare, well, what was the poor girl to say either way? When someone tells you, "And don'tcha even think of running away: I can keep up with you and catch up," doesn't mean it is true or they believe it. That's something a parent would tell a child, and if they child is old enough they could get away from the parent despite that comment. But that's not to say I don't think Cynthia could track down Clare, given tracking skills and towns, Riful's base all be located at specific points on a Cartesian Grid. As for Dietrich, I also like to point out that she seems to know the area a little better than our troublesome twosome. Furthermore, you are able to maintain your endurance more, if you know the location someone is heading to, and you go at a less stressful speed, versus recklessly running at full speed. That is unless things work differently there than in the real world.

Also, I have a bit of trouble seeing why endurance is directly linked to yoki, when strength and speed aren't. the implication here seems to be that endurance is constant because yoki is constant, yet speed and strength are variables. That doesn't sit well with me, with your theory, while it may or may not be true. It just is: why only endurance?

Anyway, as for my theory, I see Yuma as support, even though you do not. It is just such a big jump in ability for a #40 to be greater than a #15, after those seven years of training and yoki suppression. You bring up valid points about yoki suppressants, but #40 isn't fighting at full strength either due to suppression. To explain Yuma, you offer me the explanation that she was a major underachiever when it came to living up to her potential before those seven years, and that is not something I have to buy since there is no proof either way. It is just speculation on your part. So all in all, you haven't sold me your theory yet, and I haven't sold you mines; and all I did was realize it and figure that we were deadlocked and that the only way to resolve the deadlock is for more information to become available with another chapter or chapters.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

@dunames: :p Dunno, I think if you actually read what I posted, you see what I was saying is that Defensive/Offensive is probably decided during the hybridization period, and that I was questioning the bit that a person's personality would be set forever. The thing I disagree with you about is that it does effect fighting. A Offensive Claymore, is stronger offensively, though a single digit defensive claymore could be stronger than a #15 for example. A defensive claymore would also be willing to take more hits, meaning an offensive claymore would have to worry about defense more, since they don't have a natural defense.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

BTW, this is the sort of training the ghosts should go through to increase their yoki reserves.



fVQEnzixG4I

[Ryuken]

Definitely recommend it @G.:)

[chibamonster]

@Fenrir: I thought Clare and Miria rivaled single digits before any time skip or youki suppression, as did all the fab 4 :D. Yuma of course did very well in her recent fight. As did Raki against his single youma. Raki actually did better than Clare did in the first chapter. Yuma's uncertainty about her own abilities fits her personality well too. Miria also has personality quirks that mess with her abilities; she freezes when things go really bad (which is ironic for the fastest of Claymores). Yuma's issues just seemed to be more intense and constant than that. I'm glad she's overcome them.

@dunames: The story disagrees with you about being able to tell if someone is offensive or defensive from their current personality. Ophelia knew Clare was offensive from her current personality. That is how we even found out about Offensive and Defensive types. Clare knew Irene was offensive from her personality and attack power. And that was scared Irene who had run away from fighting. So while we as readers may not always be able to tell, the Claymores in the story have a good handle on it. Characters develop in Claymore, but their personality remains recognizably the same. Galatea may change from a vein high ranked warrior worried about her appearance to a blind nun, but it is still recognizably Galatea as she makes jokes in the worst of situations and engages her comrades and enemies with witty word play.

@Gangsta Spanksta: Bah, did you look at my link? I said my initial thought was, "how does Riful know?" because she had NEVER SEEN A PARTIAL AWAKENING BEFORE. So how could she draw conclusions on it from past experience? Then I said if I had to take it at face value, without my skepticism... never mind...

And I think youki is tied to speed, strength, and endurance. That is why the top Claymores have more speed, strength and endurance. They also have more youki. Rigardo could tell who was a high ranked Claymore by their youki. Miata can smell high ranked Claymores. Clare is, as always, an outlier as she has Teresa in her; the strongest claymore we have ever seen yet most people cannot sense it. Miria and Miata were able to.

As for Cynthia and Deitrich's claims and abilities the endurance issue is fact. Deitrich did not know where Helen and Deneve were going so using any short cut was meaningless. She could not sense them. She just followed them (like Jonsey following the RED OCTOBER), and Helen and Deneve realized they were in a bad situation because they could not shake her even if they ran twice as fast as she did because she had so much endurance. That is why they stopped and confronted her. These characters shook Riful in a forest, so ditching Deitrich should be no problem... unless she just followed them like they said she did.

Cynthia knows Yuma has less endurance, as does Clare. This is fact. She could barely keep up walking with Clare post time skip and she then thanked Clare for saving a low ranked Claymore like herself. After 7 years of training together they are not just puffing up their own standing.

Youki presents itself in different ways in different Claymores, just like each Awakening is unique. Rachel and Sophia's youki made them strong. Miria and Noela's youki made them fast. Helen, Jean, and Ophelia's youki makes them stretchy. Galatea and Deneve's youki allows them to heal. Irene and Flora's youki made them faster, especially for their arms. Teresa, Galatea and Renee's youki sense was incredibly developed. Techniques play a huge part in mastering ones youki, but Claymores can't just use any technique they want. Clare can't regenerate her limbs nor use the quicksword to any dangerous degree under her own power. Clare excells in youki sensing abilities but she can't make her arms stretch like Helen. So I think youki absolutely effects speed, strength, and endurance. Just not in a homogeneous fashion because youki presents itself differently among different claymores. ... almost as if their personalities had something to do with it... maybe that is just me...

[Gangsta Spanksta]

@dunames: The story disagrees with you about being able to tell if someone is offensive or defensive from their current personality. Ophelia knew Clare was offensive from her current personality. That is how we even found out about Offensive and Defensive types. Clare knew Irene was offensive from her personality and attack power. And that was scared Irene who had run away from fighting. So while we as readers may not always be able to tell, the Claymores in the story have a good handle on it. Characters develop in Claymore, but their personality remains recognizably the same. Galatea may change from a vein high ranked warrior worried about her appearance to a blind nun, but it is still recognizably Galatea as she makes jokes in the worst of situations and engages her comrades and enemies with witty word play.

I wouldn't say Ophelia knew Clare was an offensive; I would say Ophelia *guessed* Clare was an offensive, correctly. For us to know that she knew requires us hearing her thoughts. I would say that certain personalities are more likely to become Offensive or Defensive, but I still think it is possible for a mind to react differently given a specific situation and time than it normally would. Can someone Brave have a moment of weakness and be a Coward? If so, can he ever be Brave again? The human psyche isn't a black and white thing, and I don't see anything in the story saying that being turned in a Claymore would rewrite the Brave person's psyche to being a Coward just because he had a moment of weakness. People change; Do Claymores? Irene did more than hide under a bed from Priscilla.

@Gangsta Spanksta: Bah, did you look at my link? I said my initial thought was, "how does Riful know?" because she had NEVER SEEN A PARTIAL AWAKENING BEFORE. So how could she draw conclusions on it from past experience? Then I said if I had to take it at face value, without my skepticism... never mind...

You know I tend to agree with you most of the time but not here, and I don't see why you should expect me to just because you provided an analysis. You haven't really disproved Riful, you just gave support -- not facts -- of why you think she is probably wrong, followed by an analysis of what you think if you had to take her word by face value. Now in the above quote, you seem shocked, and question if I even read what you posted then, or followed some link. To be quite honest, I've already forgotten many of the details by now, but at the time I still was not convinced. If you really want me to, I'll go back and read it again, and usually I would, but right now, it feels kind of tiresome rereading something that didn't convince me the first time in something that is already becoming a long and drawn out argument, and pretty soon it will probably turn into a circular argument with each of us bringing up points from before. I don't see why you think I should change my mind just because you made an analysis.

But well about Riful, I respect her analysis on things regarding Claymore and Yoki. She and Ophelia are pretty good at figuring out what someone does. Ophelia figured out Teresa's power when Clare was blocking her strikes, Riful figured out what Galatea was doing, and that is just two examples. Riful has also been kidnapping Claymores and experimenting on them. She is good at sensing and was once a Claymore herself. Considering that she was a Claymore, well that would mean she had an opportunity to see a #25 rise in rank to say a #15 and possibly awaken. Being an Abyssal One, she may have seen such things too. If she has any such knowledge, then there you have how Riful could know. Remeber Descartes rule on assumption; you don't know what Riful knows

And I think youki is tied to speed, strength, and endurance. That is why the top Claymores have more speed, strength and endurance. They also have more youki. Rigardo could tell who was a high ranked Claymore by their youki. Miata can smell high ranked Claymores. Clare is, as always, an outlier as she has Teresa in her; the strongest claymore we have ever seen yet most people cannot sense it. Miria and Miata were able to.


You have a point with Rigaldo picking out the leaders with Yoki, but then on the other hand Miria did say the quality of their yoki has changed, which can lead into all sorts of other theories now, something neither of us has addressed as of yet. It could also be that Rigaldo only sees energy in a certain spectrum. Now you're good with Japanese and know Yoki = Demon Ki, which infers that there is also Regular Ki, which Clare may or may not have. As for quality of yoki, I am not sure I want to touch that yet since not much is explained on that, but say yoki remains constant, but yoki quality can increase, then that is a bit the same as if yoki had the same quality but can increase. It sounds a bit like uranium or plutonium quality in an atomic bomb to me. :p

As for Cynthia and Deitrich's claims and abilities the endurance issue is fact. Deitrich did not know where Helen and Deneve were going so using any short cut was meaningless. She could not sense them. She just followed them (like Jonsey following the RED OCTOBER), and Helen and Deneve realized they were in a bad situation because they could not shake her even if they ran twice as fast as she did because she had so much endurance. That is why they stopped and confronted her. These characters shook Riful in a forest, so ditching Deitrich should be no problem... unless she just followed them like they said she did.


It is not fact. It is speculation. Now let's look at what we know. There are less towns in the south than before, perhaps not very many. If Dietrich is familiar with the territory and Helen and Deneve head off in a certain direction and if that direction is in the direction of a town, well anyone can deduce what I am saying from here... Also, if Dietrich is a good Tracker and Helen and Deneve are moving recklessly through a territory they are not that familiar with... And if you are running fast, and the other person is pacing themselves, they can finish the race before you, even if you had more endurance than they did. Things are not as clear cut as you are painting them, so no, I wouldn't say fact.


Cynthia knows Yuma has less endurance, as does Clare. This is fact. She could barely keep up walking with Clare post time skip and she then thanked Clare for saving a low ranked Claymore like herself. After 7 years of training together they are not just puffing up their own standing.

Cynthia *thinks* Yuma has less endurance, as does Clare. There is a world of difference there. After 7 years of marriage many couples don't really know who the other person is and eventually divorce. There is a difference between supporting evidence and facts you know. Many of the things you gave were supporting evidence for your theory to stand on. In fact, any self respecting scientist, knows that a theory is not fact. You have a nice theory, I admit -- you are after all an intelligent person; I have an opposing theory, which you have not disproved, despite supporting evidence for your theory to stand on. Considering my academic background, I have the scientific method ingrained into me. I'm not bragging, but I am trying to explain how I view things, and since science is somewhat my field, I don't just see anything as facts; that is why I keep saying "support", because many of the things you are labeling as fact, support your theory, but are not fact. For example, Dietrich is good supporting evidence for your theory to stand on; however, Dietrich does not prove your theory to be true. You give me a lot of supporting evidence to support why Dietrich proves your point, but an explanation for the opposing theory can be provided for any of that evidence you provided. I'm being open minded here, and I believe your theory could be true, but I favor my own. Like I said, we've reached somewhat an impasse here until more evidence is provided by Yagi.

Youki presents itself in different ways in different Claymores, just like each Awakening is unique. Rachel and Sophia's youki made them strong. Miria and Noela's youki made them fast. Helen, Jean, and Ophelia's youki makes them stretchy. Galatea and Deneve's youki allows them to heal. Irene and Flora's youki made them faster, especially for their arms. Teresa, Galatea and Renee's youki sense was incredibly developed. Techniques play a huge part in mastering ones youki, but Claymores can't just use any technique they want. Clare can't regenerate her limbs nor use the quicksword to any dangerous degree under her own power. Clare excells in youki sensing abilities but she can't make her arms stretch like Helen. So I think youki absolutely effects speed, strength, and endurance. Just not in a homogeneous fashion because youki presents itself differently among different claymores. ... almost as if their personalities had something to do with it... maybe that is just me...

:) Well hopefully I can get to all of this; it is getting close to work time here. I suppose it is all about how you define Yoki, or what aspect of yoki you are talking about. There is the energy aspect of it, and then there is the soul aspect of it, or at least in the way I like to see it. The way I see it is the Soul aspect of it is what determines on just what kind of claymore you are, what your abilities are, and what kind of AB you'll become. The energy aspect of it determines how much power, strength, speed, endurance, etc you have, which the soul aspect can determine how much of that energy is focused where. Well that's a simplified version at least.

[Vulcannis]

I am, however, convinced that the awakened form itself is set in stone. This is because Irene's arm maintained it's own independent shape when Clare awakened it. Why would that happen if Clare and Irene's forms were not set?
Clare wanted to go faster, she awakened her legs and they made her go ridiculously fast.
Clare then wanted better maneuverability, she awakened her left arm and it let her manage her ridiculous speed.
Clare then wanted more power to deal more damage, awakened her right arm and again got what she wanted.

So either the awakened form is set in stone, Clare's form (with Irene arm) just happens to be perfectly suited to both fighting Rigardo and just happens to have exactly the feature she wanted at each of those 3 moments--or she had some form of influence over it.

I can't accept the first because I think Yagi's a better storyteller than that. If the variable body theory is correct though, is it restricted to just Clare or all half-awakens? I like the half-awakened since it's simpler (the mind, conscious or unconscious, has an effect on the awakening process just like how offensive/defensive is determined, versus also needing to be a hybrid with a Claymore rather than yoma source), but then that has some implications with Alicia that I don't like...

[Sleepy Speculator]

I rather like the implications that has on Alicia...

What can i say i been reading the last pages but i don't really know how to respond to the actual conversation, so i'll merely attempt to explain things as i saw it starting with dunames statement.

i think u guys have this ofensive type and defensive type all miss up. whether they r offensive or defensive have nothign to do with the current personally. the ORG just classified the claymore defensive if they are able to regenerate their lost limbs and offensive if they are superior at reattaching them rather then regenerating a new one. so if anythign the ORG know very well whether a claymore is Defensive or Offensive cause it have nothing to do with their fighting style. if anythign during the training process, the ORG probably cut off every claymores hand to est if they are offensive ro defensive. offensive will generaly just reattach their hand while defensive will fail to reattach their hand but can just regenerate a new one. whether u r a defensive or offensive is decide durign teh hybriderzation period. during the time when then yoma fresh was introduce and still in it earlie fusing period, it somehow interact with the human subconcious and determind it it a defensive or offensive person. like Orphilia said, at that point in time, as a person, if u atk to survive, then at that point, u are a offensive type and yoma ans it fuse witht he claymore will give that claymore the ability to quickly reattach any cut off limb. at that point if the claymore deeply in her heart and subconcious deeply choose to defend herself to survive, then the yoma as it fuse witht eh claymore will give the claymore the ability to regenerate.

also keep in mind that the ORG dotn cata the claymore def/off base on their personality or fighting style. that catagory was made base on their ability to regenerate or reattach cut off limb. we see that clare can quickly reattatch cut off limbs. even if clare made a 180' turn around and becoem totally defensive. always on teh defense, avoid fight at all possible, survivign through defendign only and would never againt go on the offensive ever again, that still doesnt change the fact that clare have the ability to reattatch her limb and is superior at it that at regenerating a new one.

I think that was a worthy effort, because it highlights the key issue between the defensive and offensive types and that is if a claymore can 'regenerate' or not. As far as i'm aware all defensive warriors can regenerate their hybrid flesh, and pretty fast as well, whereas he offensive claymores however can only rapidly heal, but not replace lost flesh.

However the org doesn't know which warriors are which, and haven't to my knowledge chopped off any limbs to find out, and their is some evidence to support this in that Clare had never reattached a missing limb before, and tried to regenerate an arm based purely on her observations of Deneve, who should be the opposite, with a talent in regeneration to boot. Just chopping limbs off wouldn't work either since the defensive types could also reattach and only choose regeneration if they'd irrevocably lost a limb. For offensive warriors such lost limbs are irreplaceable.

The rest is pretty much par the course except Clare isn't superior at reattaching she has no choice. I think this raises an important question, if Clare isn't defensive what benefits does she gain from being an offensive warrior? The answer to that is given away in what Clare says to Irene...

"there's no way someone possessing your level of power could be a defensive type of warrior"

the answer is power. With a few exceptions the top digits are nearly all offensive warriors. So Clare in theory should be quite powerful, yet as a hybrid hybrid she barely even scrapes in at #47, apparently due to her lower demonic ratio. A state of affairs i believe came to an end when she partially awakened.

So the story as everyone knows Clare went to the org and asked for Teresa's flesh in order to get revenge, she was hybridised as par the course, except with Teresa's flesh and not yoma flesh. And because she desires revenge and/or values her own life so little she became an offensive type. With neither the power or ability that was Teresa's legacy nor the ability to protect herself she survives by being overwhelmingly flexible/tactile and tricky and because she has been trained in fighting dirty.

I think at this point Clare actually isn't a claymore but really is a 'special soldier', and is disregarded as a mainstream experiment because she shows no aptitude for inheriting Teresa's ability, with the exception of being a sensing type, which Teresa obviously was before her. By contrast the regular claymores are merely referred to as soldiers. (claymore being a made up term for the org's soldiers).
so
generation 1>?. yoma,
generation 2. soldier (claymores),
generation 3. special soldier.

What the org didn't know, and what Rubul likely didn't know was that she partially awakened. A process which in regular soldiers shifted them towards their yoma abilities, Helen arms, Deneve super regeneration etc, they return to being regular hybrids with better control. But Clare instead shifts not to a yoma but to a claymore, she pulls back and remains a soldier and it's from here that she effectively becomes a regular soldier. At this point Clare's power starts to mainfest, she gains Teresa's ability and starts to use it, also her yoki changes drastically enough to catch Miria's eye. Basically she starts to manifest the results they were after when they hybridised her, if this had occured in training she'd be classed a prodigy as it is she's already a certified warrior, with alot less supervision.

Now does this mean she was under two hybridisation processes or one? I have no idea, but she remains an offensive warrior with an active defensive ability. What Riful bases her assumptions on is her observation of Clare, Clare started off with noticeably weak yoki, but she clearly overuses it. That is to say Clare is forcing more and more of the stuff out beyond what reserves she should hold. Furthermore she's breaching her limit on purpose and getting away with it, which implies a second unseen limit from where her reserves are actually coming from.
This coupled with the fact that a #30 awakened is much weaker than a #9 awakened and herself being a #1 awakened being the strongest. And if a claymore that is actively getting stronger says... weak claymore = weak ab, but strong claymore = strong ab especially if the weak claymore can be seen to be getting stronger. After all in that fight she was toughing it out with a #3 and a #9 and kept getting up from every knockdown, and still improvised a new technique in battle. Riful wanted strong allies.

If Riful forced Clare and Jean to awaken, the likelyhood is she'd have ended up with two weak corpses (both were wouned and exhausted) as opposed to what she wants which is two strong ab's, and that is if she can take the time in one place with the proximity of Alicia and Beth, which she didn't want to risk.

(not interested in getting flamed on this btw)
The way i think it may be is that each claymore has potential, which is their awakened form, their yoki limit, their battle potential etc. and this is not set in stone, as a warrior improves anything about themselves they improve their potential, the downside is as the potential moves they are never able to reach it. It is the sum of all they can be at any given time. The best way i could describe this is as a child learns more, more knowledge becomes available, but to say a child who can't read or write has the potential to be a highly competent GP (doctor) would be quite inaccurate. Irene failed because she had already admitted defeat, when she says she would never beat Priscilla she has made an assumption which even she admits makes her unfit for battle. After all if she's technically immortal she could spend a near eternity preparing to fight Priscilla, she just doesn't actually want to.

Priscilla fulfilling her potential, merely means she became all she could become without any intermediate space, but she was still inexperienced, a monster for sure, but not the monster she could have been if she awakened later. Still she awakened partly because of inexperience etc.

[irvinethearcher]

I support a modified form of fenrirs compatibility theory.
IMO initial claymore strength depends
1. on the quality of the human organism
2. quality of the yoma flesh
3. how they both fit to each other

as the story progresses the heart of the claymore becomes more important
because
1. developement of techniques
2. not awakening
3. reaching a half - awakened state is probably more easy with a strong human heart

But i intended to throw something else in:
I found the concept of "compressed yoki" like it existed in raciella very interesting.
Perhaps clare has this form of "compressed" yoki from theresa inside of her too.
And there is another thought i have which is about compatibility and human heart.

Perhaps if a warrior inherits the flesh of another warrior, it will lead to greater compatibility when trying to achieve a controlled awakening if both were initially close to each other like clare and theresa.
Speculations, speculations ... but the dream in "the slashers" supports this.

[chibamonster]

@Gangsta Spanksta: Telling me you won't reread something that explains the very thing we are discussing is lame. It is. Instead you chose to pick and chose and misread my argument. You have summarized it poorly and inaccurately several times and it is quite frustrating. Telling us we don't know what Riful knows is also pretty lame. You have taken her comment out of it's context to confuse yourself. She is talking to Jean and Clare, who have already passed their limit in her presence and she says, "hey, you are already half way there." She is not talking to Galatea, the normal claymore of the group. She has never seen limit crossing like Clare and Jean before. She couldn't believe what happened when she saw it.

Claymore 45 page 14
Riful: Oh? I don't mind you releasing your youki, but you know, you are going to go over your limit...
page 19
Riful: Awww!? I really thought you had finally awakened!!! A High ranked warrior who can control youma energy and a mysterious warrior who can turn back even after going past her limit. I like you two.

Riful explained she has only been gathering subordinates recently (and unsuccessfully) because of Isley's bullying. Before that she just ate and slept in the Abyss. So she has not been experimenting on other claymores from anything we know before Clare's time. Her life was actually quite boring, though apparently she does know Isley quite intimately. You do not know what you don't want to know.

Ophelia guessed Clare's type correctly but didn't know? Great. Ophelia, who introduced us to the very theory of Offensive and Defensive type Claymores, was only guessing. Sure why not? She only said, "did you know among us warriors there are those that excel in defense and those that excel in offense? You can tell them apart by their personalities. And you and I are Offensive types." Sure Ophelia, I believe you that there are offensive and defensive types, but I don't think you can tell them apart by their personalities. Nope. You lie. I know better.

People who think Yuma is much weaker than the other ghosts:

Chapter 66 page 9
Yuma: W-Wait! You are walking too fast. Please... a little
Clare: It's not like I asked you to tag along.
Yuma: (huff huff *and she is breathing heavily for the rest of the page trying to keep up with Clare*)

Chapter 82:
Helen: Not only Cynthia but even Yuma. That way if things get dangerous Clare will not be able to run as wild as she wants to. *why would Clare not be able to run wild with Yuma present...?*

Chapter 83 page 1
Clare: You okay Yuma?
Yuma: I'm fine, this place isn't a problem. (lagging behind) *meaning there are places they have been that are problems*

Chapter 83 page 5
Cynthia: Don't even try it Clare. In terms of speed and stamina I've got the upper hand. You might be able to shake Yuma but not me.

So we have Clare, Helen, Yuma, and Cynthia who say so. People who think they are all mistaken: Scientific method Gangsta Spanksta. So the ghosts are wrong, and you are right because they only think so. Dropping your background in science education as opposed to evidence to support your theory is pathetic. I also think the scientific method is a horrible device that limits discovery, but this is not the place for me to rant on that topic. You are not a character in the story so your "think so" evaluation is not the same as theirs. Unless of course you are writing fan fiction in which case the characters are much more fluid.

And hey, here's an important question; What is Yuma's Technique? Techniques can make up for a lack of power, as Clare did fighting the 6 armed AB and Ophelia. Sure seemed to me like Yuma used a technique on page 18 of chapter 83 but I will let you analyze that one.

For Rigardo sensing youki to pick out the strong ones he completely ignores 3 partially awakened claymores. He attacks Jean before Flora (9 before 8) indicating that even though Jean had partially awakened and become much stronger with a new quality of youki (she managed to actually fight Rigardo where Flora could barely blink) her youki signature that Rigardo sensed had not even changed enough to raise her above Flora. He kicked Helen, Deneve and Clare off as weaklings even though they each had the battle power of a single digit and showed it in the earlier battles in Pieta. Partial awakening absolutely and undoubtedly changed the "quality" of their youki. No indication is given that the quantity has changed. They do smell different though, according to Ophelia. Miata has not mentioned this.

@irvinethearcher & Fenrir: Yagi has a style to his writing and story telling. He foreshadows almost everything, and then brings things in surprises for twists based on the same themes. New themes are developed and continued. These zombies will absolutely have some relation to what we have seen before and develop a theme we have already heard about. Maybe the soul link, maybe the youma production system, maybe the Dods... We don't know yet, but they will be related to a theme already present in the story.

I am fine with the youma source mattering for power levels. It obviously does for Clare. I just don't see all this theory of youma flesh interaction with genetics appearing in the story anywhere. It seems like our analytical minds projected onto the story. The organization wanted to preserve Teresa's special power by implanting it into Clare. Why go to the trouble if they can make strong warriors whenever they want? Just for kicks? "By giving her the flesh and blood of a half youma blessed withoutstanding talent, you attempted to preserve that power. But didn't you come to the conclusion that your plan had been unrealistic?" (chapter 41 page 5)

Even here they use "blessed with talent" as related to something Teresa had, not something they gave her. It seems to me like it is something in the Claymores themselves more than anything else, just like how Claymores desires when they are made half youma determines whether they are offensive or defensive permanently.

[Fenrir_valindri]

I think step #1 and #2 are unneeded, as we really don't know if there is such a thing as "high quality" and "low quality" Yoma flesh, thus it would completely rely upon the compatibility between the human and the Yoma flesh.

Not sure that theory of people "being close" has much to do with controlled awakening or not, I'm not sure if the dream in the Slashers had anything significant other then Clare's memories motivating her.

The compressed Yoki thing might have merit though.

[Awakened]

I do think that the Yoma flesh implanted into the Claymore influece how powerfull they can become.

You cant get something out of nothing.

The power has to come from somewhere. Once the Yoma is implanted into the Claymore, it's up to the Claymore to take full advantage of the power inside of them, that when potential comes into play.

A framer know witch one of his animals is the strongest and healthiest. If he is going sell his best cow to some fancy restaurant, he knows with one to sell.
The Org had the idea to use soul link to create and AO, am sure they will use their strongest and healthiest Yoma for that experiment. The Org knows that Miata has the potential to be #1, this implies that Miata has not taken full advantage of the power inside of her.

After yoma energy, the Claymore mind might be the second most important factor. Clare friend was stronger than her, but she lost control not to long before she became a claymore. This means that implanting a strong yoki in to someone does not automatically make them #1.

Conclusion:
Yoma implanted is a major factor, but the end result depends on the Claymore (this can be many different factors). Just a theory

Clare clearly:D has a strong yoma energy inside of her. Clare is also special in many ways to I might be totally wrong.

[shschesschamp]

It's weird im starting to think that the organization are the bad guys, and the dods are good guys.

[Gooral]

[...] If Riful forced Clare and Jean to awaken, the likelyhood is she'd have ended up with two weak corpses (both were wouned and exhausted) as opposed to what she wants which is two strong ab's, and that is if she can take the time in one place with the proximity of Alicia and Beth, which she didn't want to risk. [...]
So you think that if Clare awakened immediately after hybridization or just after first over-limit she would be weaker than if she awakened now and reserves which Clare kept hidden until fight with Rigardo would magically vanish? Don't think so. IMO when you awaken you receive maximum power and it doesn't matter when it happens, you won't have more youki or strength. The only difference is that after every partial awakening you gain control over more and more powers you would have as an awakened so you keep getting stronger as a CLAYMORE.
The best way i could describe this is as a child learns more, more knowledge becomes available, but to say a child who can't read or write has the potential to be a highly competent GP (doctor) would be quite inaccurate.
Not necessarily. If this kid has great memory, knows every bone and muscle human has (by watching TV or using computer program with pictures which are read by lector/reader) and dissects frogs because he finds it interesting than I would say it wouldn't be a stretch to make such a conclusion.

Edit:
After awakening one clearly receives great boost in power. Maintaining such humongous form like Isley's or Riful's, having such elasticity like Riful, immense speed like Clare, extending limbs or producing homing missiles all require great amounts of energy. Somehow Riful is exponentially stronger in her awakened form than in human form so why should we assume that Clare would be a dead corpse? If anything she could maintain her awakened form for a shorter amount of time but I don't think she would be weaker than she could be at the peak of her power.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

@Gangsta Spanksta: Telling me you won't reread something that explains the very thing we are discussing is lame. It is. Instead you chose to pick and chose and misread my argument. You have summarized it poorly and inaccurately several times and it is quite frustrating. Telling us we don't know what Riful knows is also pretty lame. You have taken her comment out of it's context to confuse yourself. She is talking to Jean and Clare, who have already passed their limit in her presence and she says, "hey, you are already half way there." She is not talking to Galatea, the normal claymore of the group. She has never seen limit crossing like Clare and Jean before. She couldn't believe what happened when she saw it.

Why are you doing this anyway? I really don't understand why you feel that I must except your theory to be true. I said it was a nice theory, but I don't favor it. Now you are calling me lame, in effect attacking the arguer and not the argument, which is frowned upon by those who use the study of Philosophy inside of debate. You've already used a logical fallacy by poisoning the well in your debate, and I have remained civil about it and haven't labeled you as lame for using it. But if you want a detailed analysis of this argument that is now making both of us look bad, then very well.

Okay, in message #509, http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=2158023&postcount=509 I had read your previous post, and merely stated that I like you don't take every character's word as gospel. You thought that Riful was mistaken when she said that the more powerful Clare would get in Claymore form would Make her a more powerful awakened being. I tend to see that the opposite, since I find Riful very intelligent and respect her opinion. On the other hand, I said I don't believe everything everyone says in the story either. We've seen characters make the wrong assumptions before; that is one of the great things about Claymore, characters misconceive things. I gave a few non detailed examples of where I thought Clare demonstrated that she had endurance. For example, I think to battle like she did in the War in the North, required a lot of endurance. That's an opinion btw that can be used as support and not a fact. Anyway at that point it seemed that you were linking endurance to yoki to me, since you were making it sound like Clare's endurance hadn't increased. For example Clare strength and speed have far surpassed Cynthia's but not her endurance. So logically it sounds like Endurance has remained the same, and you are saying that Yoki is constant, so Endurance seems to be linked to yoki there, yet speed and strength have increased dramatically. This is part of why I don't buy what Cynthia said, because why would Clare's strength and speed increase so drastically and her endurance pretty much stay the same. It is a problem I have with your theory, which I feel you haven't fully addressed, or at least not in a concise manner that would make me want to drop my own theory and say that your's is the one I like the most now. You also had previously made mention of Miria not being as fast now in her phantoms, and then talked about what you thought the training was actually for. I made, probably not as best as I could have due to lack of interest, a comment that we only seen Miria's phantoms while she is suppressed, and i think that once Miria stop suppressing that her phantoms will be much faster than they were seven years ago. Then I made one of many subsequent statements about Dietrich being able to keep up with Helen and Deneve, and there are several explanation to that that keep it from being a fact that Dietrich has greater endurance than Helen or Deneve.

And it was during this message #509 that I thought, well Chiba makes some good and valid arguments. I don't really like his theory though, and I don't see anything that proves it to be true, nor do I see anything that would invalidate my theory. So I conclude that you are not change my mind, nor am I going to change your mind, and I try to end our debate peacefully by pointing it out. This was not my best post, I know, but by that time I've already had lost interest.

Then in message #510 http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=2158058&postcount=510 you decide to make things personal for no good reason. You start off by calling my post dumb. You italicize, "Let's not trust anything in the story and make it up ourselves," implying that I am making up the story myself, without giving an example how, while ironically enough trying to link, "let's not trust anything in the story," to me because I said I think character misconceive things in claymore, when you yourself said you thought Riful misconceived something. Hypocrisy? Then you say, "Fantastic. I'll get the tea cups. You get the blankets for the fort. We will meet in the fanfic thread for a party. " That obviously is a reference to me, since I mentioned I like fan fiction I guess. Then you state that you have told me what you thought Riful's statements ment, and provide a link to them, which btw you did not ask me to follow, and why should I when the debate has gone south? But let me ask you something: So what if you gave me several options of what you thought of Riful statements? Did you think that they were so logical and precises that they were going to overwhelm me with their magnificence and if I was any sort of non-moron I would have change my opinion to yours? What was wrong with me being civil and saying, your theory is nice and logical, but I prefer mines, and I don't think either of us is going to going to change the other's mind? I'm paraphrasing but that is essentially the jest of what I said. Then you say that I seem to have missed some points, when I haven't even stated that your theory was wrong, just that I preferred my own theory. It shows some arrogance on your part to assume that I have problems understanding something you say just because I don't become your own personal yes-man. And now to the logical fallacy of poisoning the well you made (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well). At this point, you had already started with the first mention of Fan Fiction.


It seems to me that your fan fiction mind has made the story more fluid than it really is. Well if it fits your stories great . It probably makes them more enjoyable. Fan fiction is a great way for people to enter the story world and stay there. I am just not very interested in it. I am much more interested in figuring out how the author creates a coherent and moving story world.


When I read that I just felt sad. I couldn't believe that someone who I respected and saw as intelligent could make a statement so low and not even know the mistake in an argument they were making here. You infer that I have a fan fiction mind and you really trying to discredit me by painting me as some kind of fan fiction freak. Ah yeah, what does that fan fiction freak know? He's into that freaky stuff after all... I have to admit, at this point of time, I lost a little respect for you as a debater and someone who can win an argument using logic, instead of trying cheap and pitiful things like poisoning the well, or attacking the arguer and not the argument. And then you end the post with, ">>>Chiba is angry if you cannot tell<<<," which just baffles me? Why were you angry, anyway? What did I do? What in message #509 was anything but peaceful and civil? I simply don't get it Chiba. Message #510 was not one of your greatest moment, and I think if you look at it again you'll see that it just makes you look bad. And I don't see why you would think that someone would want to continue what was a friendly debate at this point.

Then in message #516 http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=2158558&postcount=516 I point out that you poisoned the well, while trying to remain civil in the argument. It's was more of something of me saying that, that's not fair, and that you shouldn't do that in an argument, which I tried to terminate in message #509 because of an impasse in idea. Anyway, I try to let you know that I wasn't insulting you. That I never said you had an invalid theory. That I thought your theory was logic but just not for me. Here the argument is starting to get circular, because of my part where I feel I have to rehash some things I mentioned earlier as part of stating there is an impasse. I state something that I believed was the heart of our different viewpoints: "I believe what Riful said was true; you think she misconceived things. That really is the heart of the opposing view points here." For some reason, you think that what you told me should have had me change my opinion, and I guess we'll get to that when the time comes. I point out that at this time that there isn't enough data from Yagi to validate or invalidate either theory. I am being diplomatic here, despite you labeling my theory as being crack pot in the prior message, and say that your theory has some good supporting elements for its foundation like Dietrich. I point out that fan fiction has nothing to do with our argument. And I say while you do have good foundation to build your theory on that the supporting details could be explained away with logical reasoning to support an opposing theory. This btw is what makes those things supporting details and not facts. I've given a few example about dietrich through the argument relating to endurance. I addressed the bit about Cynthia telling Clare not to even think about running away, that she could catch up and follow. BTW, back in that chapter, if you check, a few people didn't buy that statement either. Just because someone makes a statement, doesn't make it true. People Bluff, overestimate, and underestimate. I gave several possibilities of how someone could keep up with another person without them having greater endurance, thus making Cynthia having greater endurance than Clare a probability instead of a fact. Something can only be a fact, if all other opposing possibilities are proven to be false. I again bring up my problem with endurance, which I don't think you had addressed by that point. I again bring up that what I see as support and not fact is Yuma. And I finish this message off with my way of saying lets not fight about this and wait for more evidence to become available, since right either is possible.

Then you Respond in Message #520 http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=2158921&postcount=520 and start that message off with something that isn't stated clearly, and has mistakes in it: "Bah, did you look at my link? I said my initial thought was, "how does Riful know?" because she had NEVER SEEN A PARTIAL AWAKENING BEFORE. So how could she draw conclusions on it from past experience? Then I said if I had to take it at face value, without my skepticism... never mind..."

I assume you meant Half Awakening there, but you don't make clear how this relates to an half awakening. What we were talking about, the part you mention with face value, was if Clare becomes more powerful as a Claymore, then she will become a greater awakened being. I'm not sure what you are talking about Half Awakening here for. I can guess, but you could've been more clear in what you were talking about. But I don't think what Riful said related to the Half Awakening that she saw. Riful has been around. She could have seen many Claymores awaken in both her lifetimes. She could have seen what type of awakened beings they turn into and formed a suspicion that she later answered with an experiment. Who's to say that Riful never seen someone rise in the ranks of Claymore -- something that is possible -- and went from a mid range rank to a higher ten range? Who's to say that she didn't witness that claymore awaken and turn into an AB expected from an upper 10 instead of a midrange Claymore? Do you have absolute proof that this did not happen? If not, then how do you know what Riful knows? Anyway, you finally address yoki, at least partially, and make some very good points. You restate that Clare is special because of being 1/2 Teresa. You do not however address why Clare's Strength and Speed now out matches probably everyone's except Miria's, while her endurance seems to have stayed at a same level when compared to everyone else's. I have a hard time buying that without a logical explanation, and that is after all directly related to if Clare can get away from Cynthia or not.

then you claim what I think is a false statement: "As for Cynthia and Deitrich's claims and abilities the endurance issue is fact" That is not a fact, until you can disprove all opposing other possibilities as to why either could keep up to the others. Throughout this argument, I've given other possibilities as to how those girls could keep up to our troublesome three. You somewhat try to address one of them, but it is more along the lines that Helen and Clare destination is known. There are not that many cities in the south, so if they head off in a certain direction, Dietrich can guess what town they are heading for. Another thing I've pointed out to you has to do with endurance running, where you have to pace yourself. In endurance running, the person with the greatest endurance can lose, if they run at full speed, while the person with the slowest speed could win, if he is the only one who paces himself. Then there are tracking skills and knowledge of the area. Sorry, but as of yet, you have not provided an argument to make your claim, your supporting statement, to a fact. And I don't think you can quite frankly, even though you are one of the more intelligent individuals on this board, but the endurance running example, and the unprovable bit of if Helen or Deneve where going at full speed, simply seems to make it impossible to turn that claim into a fact. :P I suppose I'll have to go back and look, but there is supporting evidence I believe -- not fact -- that Helen and Deneve where speeding through the forest. Next statement you say Cynthia *knows* something when you should say *thinks* since you haven't provided proof that what she thinks is fact. Finally, you give a theory on yoki, which is nice, and maybe it is there to say that Clare's personality is such that her yoki increases her strength and speed dramatically, but not her endurance? Not sure. Either way, I'm still left wondering why her strength and speed are so high, and her endurance remained pitiful, even though she can out pace yuma, who as #40 would have a higher probability of having better endurance than a #47. It's those little things that start adding up that don't sit well with me.

I respond to you in Message #521 http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=2159038&postcount=521 Here I say that while I agree with you most of the time that I don't understand why you seem so insistent that I have to agree with you know. I am starting to notice here that you are considering some things to be fact when they clearly aren't, maybe at best highly probable, but that isn't fact either. I am thinking back about your original message about Riful, much of which I had forgot by this time, just like most people forget the details. I am a bit confused about what link you speak off because there was no link in that message as far as I recalled. It turns out to be in a follow up message. I do know however that at the time I read the message in question I understood what you were saying and I just didn't buy your theory. I make it be known that I really don't want to go back and read that message. I felt it was pointless. You seem to think I must of missed something enlightening. And I state that despite I don't think it will be fruitful that If you really want me to, then I'll go back and look at that message. This is something you misrepresent later on and accuse me of being "lame" for and more about that in just a bit. I bring up my respect for Riful and her intelligence. I say I think her and Ophilia are good analysis when it comes to telling how someone does something yoki related in battle. I bring up that Riful could have seen a claymore go from one rank to another and became the later's rank for an AB. I point out you shouldn't assume things and that you have know way of knowing what things Riful had witnessed in either of her lives. I'm still being civil at this point. I give you credit about Rigaldo. Something that has caused me to revise my views a little. And while I'm still not convinced that Yoki is a constant. It could have been that while they may or may not have been minor yoki increases, that the leaders of the Battle still stood out for Rigaldo. But I remember something Maria said in the slasher's arc about the quality of their yoki increasing. So while the amount may be the same or a little higher, the quality has greatly increased, something that Rigaldo might not be able to see. I link that notion to the quality of plutonium in a bomb. I point out what you think is a fact is not a fact. Readdress the dietrich thing yet again... I am being civil and compliment you and your theory. I do however want to address the problem you have with thinking things are facts when they are not. Which was the only reason why I brought up my Academic Background and the Scientific Method. Now my field of study was in Computer Science and the scientific method is something we had drilled into us. Scientist have higher standards for facts. In fact, they hardly like claiming anything is a fact. This is something what some politicians something take advantage of, like for instance in the case of global warming, Scientist refuse to call certain things facts, even though they find they highly probable and instead have theories which are not facts either. You can not call the things you are calling facts, facts unless you disprove all opposing other possibilities, which is something you have not done.

And now back to this message.


Telling me you won't reread something that explains the very thing we are discussing is lame.


Okay tell me were exactly I tell you I won't reread something.


If you really want me to, I'll go back and read it again, and usually I would, but right now, it feels kind of tiresome rereading something that didn't convince me the first time


Who's changing who's words, now? I said I would, if you asked, though reluctantly. Okay, lets look at it again, and see if I will see anything that will change my mind to yours.

How much did Riful know about Partial awakenings before she met Clare? Nothing. She had never seen it before. Ever. So where did Riful get that theory? [speculation mode: ACTIVATED] I think she probably developed it from seeing Clare willfully surpass her limit when she stabbed through Duff's hand. Riful says something to the effect of "I see, when you go over your limit on purpose you are much stronger." And for Clare that is true, as she has Teresa HAX, so she is no standard by which to measure everyone else.

And do I think Awakening actually releases all of a Claymore's potential? I don't think so. Priscilla seemed to be unique as Rubel specifically mentioned that all of her potential was released when she awakened. I think each awakening is unique, with its own strengths and weaknesses.

But if I had to take Riful's comment at face value, I'd say that most Claymores never reach their potential before they awaken, and awakening limits progress to some extent (as the human heart is sealed/dead). So I think working harder can make a Claymore get close to their potential which will make them a stronger AB, but can they raise their own potential? Not from anything we have seen yet. Personally I hope that they are able to raise it, so I will keep looking for it in the future.


Okay you mean Half Awakening instead of Partial Awakenings. Yes, she knew nothing of half awakenings before that. You speculate on Riful getting that notion from clare getting stronger when she goes over her limit. Which does not infer that you be a stronger awakened being for getting to be a stronger claymore. It just sounds like you are stronger, because you are using this power up to me. A bit about Priscila, and how you think she is different.
And then if Riful's words are true that people could get closer to their potential, but it is unlikely that they could raise them and then eventually an awakened being would realize the same level of potential no mater at what power level they start. And that potential is as far as they can go.

And all while very nice, doesn't make me any closer to accepting your theory. For one, you've never really explained why Priscilla is a special case. She is half yoma unlike Clare who is half Teresa. Why should she realize all her potential at awakening, while other claymores go through a different process. At the moment, I think that Clare should be considered the only possible exception to the rule.

Claymore 45 page 14
Riful: Oh? I don't mind you releasing your youki, but you know, you are going to go over your limit...
page 19
Riful: Awww!? I really thought you had finally awakened!!! A High ranked warrior who can control youma energy and a mysterious warrior who can turn back even after going past her limit. I like you two.

Riful explained she has only been gathering subordinates recently (and unsuccessfully) because of Isley's bullying. Before that she just ate and slept in the Abyss. So she has not been experimenting on other claymores from anything we know before Clare's time. Her life was actually quite boring, though apparently she does know Isley quite intimately. You do not know what you don't want to know.

Okay, you're right about that point; however, it does not say anything what riful may have observed as a claymore that led to some suspicions on the matter she had, that were later confirmed when only high level claymores turned into worthy ABs.


Ophelia guessed Clare's type correctly but didn't know? Great. Ophelia, who introduced us to the very theory of Offensive and Defensive type Claymores, was only guessing. Sure why not? She only said, "did you know among us warriors there are those that excel in defense and those that excel in offense? You can tell them apart by their personalities. And you and I are Offensive types." Sure Ophelia, I believe you that there are offensive and defensive types, but I don't think you can tell them apart by their personalities. Nope. You lie. I know better.

See this is where viewing things differently comes in to play. The above statement, at most, says that the high majority of Claymores can be told apart by their personalities. That is if a coward becomes a defensive (extreme wording) and a brave person an offensive, but what about the coward that had a moment of braveness, especially during the hybridization phase? Just because things are generally so, doesn't mean there aren't exceptions to rules.

People who think Yuma is much weaker than the other ghosts:

Chapter 66 page 9
Yuma: W-Wait! You are walking too fast. Please... a little
Clare: It's not like I asked you to tag along.
Yuma: (huff huff *and she is breathing heavily for the rest of the page trying to keep up with Clare*)

Chapter 82:
Helen: Not only Cynthia but even Yuma. That way if things get dangerous Clare will not be able to run as wild as she wants to. *why would Clare not be able to run wild with Yuma present...?*

Chapter 83 page 1
Clare: You okay Yuma?
Yuma: I'm fine, this place isn't a problem. (lagging behind) *meaning there are places they have been that are problems*

Chapter 83 page 5
Cynthia: Don't even try it Clare. In terms of speed and stamina I've got the upper hand. You might be able to shake Yuma but not me.

So we have Clare, Helen, Yuma, and Cynthia who say so. People who think they are all mistaken: Scientific method Gangsta Spanksta. So the ghosts are wrong, and you are right because they only think so. Dropping your background in science education as opposed to evidence to support your theory is pathetic. I also think the scientific method is a horrible device that limits discovery, but this is not the place for me to rant on that topic. You are not a character in the story so your "think so" evaluation is not the same as theirs. Unless of co1urse you are writing fan fiction in which case the characters are much more fluid.

I hate to tell you this, but that is still not a fact but a high probability. There is a very low probability that Yuma is lazy or some other thing that's unlikely. I was making a point that you are saying things are facts when they are not, even the extreme cases. That doesn't mean I don't agree about yuma's endurance. but the statement you made that really bothered me was: "As for Cynthia and Deitrich's claims and abilities the endurance issue is fact." That unlike the extreme Yuma and Ophelia cases is much more disputable. Just because something seems true, and is very likely to be true, does not make it a fact.

And hey, here's an important question; What is Yuma's Technique? Techniques can make up for a lack of power, as Clare did fighting the 6 armed AB and Ophelia. Sure seemed to me like Yuma used a technique on page 18 of chapter 83 but I will let you analyze that one.

Well it's almost 6am in the morning here, is there a point for me searching for that?

For Rigardo sensing youki to pick out the strong ones he completely ignores 3 partially awakened claymores. He attacks Jean before Flora (9 before 8) indicating that even though Jean had partially awakened and become much stronger with a new quality of youki (she managed to actually fight Rigardo where Flora could barely blink) her youki signature that Rigardo sensed had not even changed enough to raise her above Flora. He kicked Helen, Deneve and Clare off as weaklings even though they each had the battle power of a single digit and showed it in the earlier battles in Pieta. Partial awakening absolutely and undoubtedly changed the "quality" of their youki. No indication is given that the quantity has changed. They do smell different though, according to Ophelia. Miata has not mentioned this.


Yup, I'm sold on the yoki quality bit, but one thing to consider is that the half awakeneds only recently half awakened. So if their yoki levels grew any, it still might not exceed the levels of single digits. In other words, it is too early to tell. You would have to see the levels seven years later.

[PureYoki]

I agree with Awakened, yoma flesh is the major factor which determines a claymore's strength. All soul-link candidates are/were AO level claymores, this is not a coincidence, the org ensured all of them would be strong claymores which make them worthwhile for soul-link training. IMO personality or compatibility are minor factors.

Yuma was #40 seven years ago and if she had awakened back then, she would have been a #40 AB. She is much stronger now and therefore her AB form will be much stronger. As Riful said and as it was shown in the story, it is a given that the strength of a claymore's AB form is NOT constant. It depends on what percent of the claymore's potential has been exploited at the time she awakens.

Clare is not an example for anything because she is a quarter yoma which makes her different from everybody else in the story (maybe except Clarice). Clare, a #47 claymore who barely handled yoma, was able to defeat #2 AB Rigardo and no, it's not all about Irene's arm, the speed of her legs were incredible which had nothing to do with the arm. Not to mention she's the protagonist and protagonists are not good examples to analyse the rules in a manga.

[zato_1one]

WTH are these wall of texts!?! :twitch:

@chiba: I think you should cool your head a bit. :)

By the way, Aren't these discussions should be in power discussion thread. :uhoh:

[Sleepy Speculator]

everyone knows yuma's technique is YUMA PUNCH!!!

@gooral

If the awakened form of Clare or Jean didn't live upto Riful's expectations she'd get Duph to kill them, that is if they even awaken rather than just choose to die, or die from blood loss before awakening etc. The question would be then if what you say is true gooral how comes all Ab's without exception are exponentially stronger than the claymores they were? It can't be that each and every claymore is incapable of gaining that strength over time surely?

And when it comes to being cured i would rather have an experienced doctor, trained in medical practice who can write perscriptions, read medical jounrals and consult other practitioners, than an idiot savant with a photographic memory treat me. That is to say the talent whilst spectacular is a poor substitute for experience and skill.

[Ryuken]

WTH are these wall of texts!?! :twitch:

@chiba: I think you should cool your head a bit. :)


I think both of them should take things a little easy @zato, and try not kill each other in the process.:) We have been through a lot of post wars, this is definitely not the first and also, not the most popular one at that.

@chiba, I tend to agree with you on most of these cases and I do on this one too, to a certain extent. Don't take me wrong, because @Gangsta also has good points to which he had based his conclusions.:) You are, and always will be one of the best speculators on this thread.:)

[irvinethearcher]

@Gangsta Spanksta:
@irvinethearcher & Fenrir: Yagi has a style to his writing and story telling. He foreshadows almost everything, and then brings things in surprises for twists based on the same themes. New themes are developed and continued. These zombies will absolutely have some relation to what we have seen before and develop a theme we have already heard about. Maybe the soul link, maybe the youma production system, maybe the Dods... We don't know yet, but they will be related to a theme already present in the story.

I am fine with the youma source mattering for power levels. It obviously does for Clare. I just don't see all this theory of youma flesh interaction with genetics appearing in the story anywhere. It seems like our analytical minds projected onto the story. The organization wanted to preserve Teresa's special power by implanting it into Clare. Why go to the trouble if they can make strong warriors whenever they want? Just for kicks? "By giving her the flesh and blood of a half youma blessed withoutstanding talent, you attempted to preserve that power. But didn't you come to the conclusion that your plan had been unrealistic?" (chapter 41 page 5)

Even here they use "blessed with talent" as related to something Teresa had, not something they gave her. It seems to me like it is something in the Claymores themselves more than anything else, just like how Claymores desires when they are made half youma determines whether they are offensive or defensive permanently.


The genetic interaction doesn't appear because the org probably(We even don't know how advanced the main continent is) doesn't have the technology for that and modern genetics is always computer-aided. And even if you're right about the human heart, what is it in the end? Only what was learned by the person?
I'm not a behaveorist like skinner, so i don't think so. IMO it is a product from the environment and and the genes someone inherits which are important for character traits too. Perhaps it is a bit captious but i think it is a point.

Giving them the half yoma flesh wouldn't work as we have seen on clare. Perhaps it was because clare had a strong human heart, perhaps it was because she was only 1/4 yoma, so that she could half-awaken and with this tap into theresa hidden power of which i think that it is
like in raciella's and priscilla's case highly compressed yoki before half-awakening unaccessible for clare.
What i wanted to say is, that it has to be the flesh of a very strong claymore AND so many convenient circumstances like it happened with clare that it normaly doesn't pay out. Besides clare was the first one they used to preserve a strong warrior and probably the last.
I think they used the flesh of yomas who gave good warriors again for other warriors but probably the amount of warriors who could be made by a single yoma is limited to one or three. And we don't know how long a yoma probe could be preserved. And even if they used the good yoma's often the quality of the yoma was only one of three factors according to my theory.
Quality of the human(perhaps your human heart) and compatibility are there too.
I mean it couldn't be so easy, otherwise the org would have more teresa's.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

@Sleepy Spectator: I like your analysis. The bit about Riful make sense, and we don't know what she may have observed prior to that to form any suspicions about how things work. I do think that both the human quality and the Yoma quality play a great role, as does compatibility at the beginning. That is how the org can make a potential #1 like Alicia, with rare twins.

I don't think that Priscilla is a special case. Clare is because she's not 1/2 yoma. But if Priscilla realized all her potential at once, then so should any 1/2 yoma Claymore. That is a very important aspect of theory here, because it determines if all Claymores realize their full potential at awakening or not, with the exception of maybe Clare. I think if an arguer is going to discount the Priscilla factor, they would have to explain what makes her different, and that is mostly directed at Chiba's theory, one aspect I wasn't quite sold on. I think the awakening is what determines what kind of awakened being you are. We know during the hybridization period that Claymores have nightmares. It is how they react to those nightmares that determines if they are offensive or defensive, and most of the time it is straight forward, but people are complex creature and we all have reacted differently in certain situations then we would have otherwise, or in the same situation at a different time. So yeah, I think it is possible, but rare, to have a Defensive Claymore with a Offensive personality, or that someone's personality could change after they have become a Claymore. At least I don't see any reason why it should be possible for us humans to change -- I myself have changed personalties several times in my life -- and for Claymores to be more limited, unable to change who they are.

Also let me give an other example: Say you have two twins and you seperate them. One Twin is fed well, keeps in shape and receives a good education. The other twin is suffers from malnutrition, and gets no education but survival. Well human wise, you could find by adulthood that the well fed twin is taller than the malnutrition one, and his psyche would be different. Would something like this effect what kind of AB they could become? Much of being an Awakened Being has been speculated on having to do with your psyche, but also what about the physical form that a claymore is in? Would a physically strong Claymore become a Physically strong Awakened being, or a mentally sharp one a mentally sharp ab, how much of this stuff caries over to awakened being form in an increased manner? And if it does carry over, why wouldn't improving some of those things as a Claymore help? I guess I am agreeing with much you say here. I have started taking Yoki quality into considering, but in many ways yoki quality with constant potential is the same thing as yoki amount with variable potential, and I don't see why you can't have yoki quality and amount both be variables. The half awakends hadn't been half awakeneds for long before the war in the north. That can explain why Helen and Deneve levels did not exceed the single digits. With Clare, well you can't even factor her in, because she is an exception to the rule, and her qualities are more unknown.

BTW, I don't think Miria was able to see Clare's power like Miata did; I think it was more how Clare carried herself after she took care of the town full of Yuma.

[Sleepy Speculator]

haha your analysis/speculation with twins is exactly what i believe the org *has* done. The org has an experiment in which they require twins and we've all jumped to the conclusion that the Zemas the org bought are Alicia and Beth, which Raphealla just happened to overhear. The org was obviously split about how to make the ab they require, and whereas Alicia and Beth are the culmination of one set of twins they appropriated there's no indication they didn't have more, under different training regimes. Take Clare for example her life seems like a nightmare set up to create a traumatised and aggressive claymore. Before she even was taken as a trainee she encountered at least 2-8 yoma, at least 6 claymores and a gang of bandits who were likely involved with the org, oh and the most powerful Ab. To create the opposite you'd just need to have someone who is raised in a relatively peaceful and loving environment, and taken for training without any of the intermediate trauma.

I'm not entirely sure on Priscilla but there is the fact that Rubul said "it was as if" not just she reached her full potential but that she gained alot of it, and she was already a somewhat strong claymore deserving at least the #2 rank.

p.s a town full of yuma sounds nice, i'd like to holiday there...

[Gangsta Spanksta]

p.s a town full of yuma sounds nice, i'd like to holiday there...

That's what happens when you don't get enough sleep. :heh: I should've chosen a town full of a sexier claymore than yuma.

[iLney]

Muhaha, only 950 kanjis more to go :D

When next chapter is out, I can start learning real Japanese :)

Expect Isley to team up with Helen and Devene somehow. Or those zombies turn out to be parts of Isley body. That will be a twist :D

[Snider]

About Clare's awakened form...
Oh man a whole Awakened Irene might come off that arm to fight the rest of Teresa :D

[chibamonster]

@Gangsta Spanksta: I wish you would include examples from the story backing your theory up. Instead you use my posts as examples and point out how I am being unfair, which I probably am. I am at least using the story elements even if I am bathing in a poison well. Actually I get a little angry every time Fenrir brings up his compatibility theory as I have read it so many times now and it always looks the same.

"You can not call the things you are calling facts, facts unless you disprove all opposing other possibilities, which is something you have not done."

As I said, I dislike the scientific method. But having worked in research I might be a bit biased. This is a story created by an author. He tells us things he wants us to know, and he can communicate them in subtle ways. Do characters misunderstand things in Claymore? Absolutely. But they ALWAYS MISUNDERSTAND FOR A REASON (unlike the scientific community. Does Cold Fusion produce energy? Absolutely. Is it actually fusion? Well not really, we probably misnamed it... And you lose your funding, credibility and career). Was Riful wrong about Priscilla's power? Yes she was, but Yagi made sure to communicate that she was wrong. Was Irene wrong about Teresa and Priscilla? Yes, but Yagi told us, through her own words, that she was wrong. Characters being wrong for no reason does not aid the story and instead makes the content and information the author is communicating, especially subtle communications, dissapear. This is what I mean by making the story fluid. Fluid enough to fit our own theories as opposed to trying to discover what the author is really saying. Subtle communications by the author are my favorite part as so much can be said with so little, so this scientific method approach really grates me the wrong way.

You are not providing evidence from the story backing up your theory, instead you point out that the story does not disprove all other possibilities. If we have to operate from this point of view then there are very very few facts, if any, to the story. Especially because we don't see what happens between the panels. That is what I mean by fan fiction. An example;

We do not see Clare and Deneve go over their limit in Pieta against the AB youki manipulator. Chapter 53 starting on page 31.

AB: What? Impossible! Both of you should have gone over your limit!
Deneve: Nope, you are wrong. It must have been your imagination.

Then in chapter 54 page 1
Flora: What? Those two... Just how...
Then in Chapter 55 page 20
Flora: And there is one more thing I wanted to ask you. In that battle, for just one second, didn't you go over your lim... Never mind...

Did Clare and Deneve go over their limit? Deneve says they did not, so Yagi does not disprove all opposing possibilities and in this case he even leaves a bit of evidence. So scientifically analyzing the story, we could put forward the conjecture; "Clare and Deneve did not go over their limits during the fight with the youki manipulating AB." Why? We did not see it. No one comes out and says it. Deneve even says the AB is wrong. Not all opposing possibilities have been addressed. So they did not cross their limit. It is not a fact of the story. Sure it is within the realm of the story for them to go over their limit, and they do it other times, but they did not do it here. Does this add anything to the story? No, I think it takes much of the interaction between characters away especially between Undine and Deneve along with Clare and Flora. There is no end to the possible ways we can interpret the story if we take this approach. Sure you may have given us a hint Mr. Author, but I don't like it so I'm going to make the story this way. Changing a story you don't like to make it better in your own eyes is fine. I have rewritten stories with bad endings and redrawn comics with bad illustrations. I just enjoy claymore too much to take that approach.

I am not sure if it is worth analyzing where everything the characters say is to be mistrusted. Even trusting Riful's words does not contradict my theory. I am just curious how she knows anything about half awakened Claymores. I am even more curious about her motivations as letting those claymores go would almost certainly mean their death in the violent world they live in. Jean never made it back to her. I think Riful did what she did and said what she said for a reason. But I am probably wasting space analyzing why Riful did anything in this post.

What is Yuma's first response when she pwns 2 MiB's and 3 Claymores?
Chapter 83 page 20
Yuma: That was number 14? Her sword was practically standing still to me. It is like I have become far stronger than I realized. Which begs the question, since I don't experience the same thing with the others, just how much stronger have they all become?

Yuma holds that she is still weaker, even after pwning n00bs, than the other ghosts. So even though Yuma defeated #14, and used some whirly looking sword technique, she still sees herself as the weakest. To me this indicates that while the numbering system is not an absolute measure of power (as the MiB's say back in the first chapter of "The Witches Maw") some claymores are just stronger than others, and given the same training, they stay that way. I did not say that Claymores cannot get stronger. I instead theorize that Claymores have different potentials which cannot be crossed by any amount of training. I'd get into what partial awakening means, but ...

@irvinethearcher: I know you and Fenrir like looking at genetics, nature vs. nurture, youma samples, compatibility and such. But does Yagi show any of it in the story? Genetics is actually quite interesting as a subject to me. I just don't see it in the story. It is a fine way to flex your mind on the subject. I see it in the same way Fan Fictions are a great way to practice ones writing skills. Modern Genetics theory just does not seem to fit in a world where human sized creatures can hulk their way up to the size of a house and characters can walk with holes in their spine the size of a basketball.

[dunames]

i hate to bad mouth people but sometime IMO chiba is just beign retarded and close minded.

discussion happen when people discuss what happen between the line. if u take what is written on paper as at absolute truth and what is not written as "fanfac" well then what is there to discuss. discussion open up the possibilities, a debate twist the truth.

chiba u just need to be a bit open minded and u can see the infinite possibility. u give off a close mind aura liek 99% of the the world population where 2+2=4 and never ever give it a second though that 2+2=5 can also happen. Chiba u have to sometime take what is written in the manga as perspective view and not as a fact.

Example: Did Clare and Dev pass the limit against the yoki control AB?
Answer: Yes and No
WTF?? how can u have a yes and a no?
EZ by being open minded and consider the possiblilty.

From the ABs and teh surrounded Claymores perspective they sure did go pass the limit. since the 80% mark was something set by teh ORG and grind into their mind, the surrounded claymore and the AB accept it to be teh true limit mark. once u past it u can not return from it and u "awaken." Now since they did past that limit so then they really did past eh limit. NO. u see, Yes they unleash their yoki pass the limit but they did not pass the limit at the same time. why? EZ. here are 2 possble way to explain why Dev say they did not.

1: the 80% was only a general guess, just because u red line ur car does not mean ur engine is total. same with claymore, jsut cause u go past tha 80% mark dotn mean u gonna lose ur humanity. the 80% mark is only a very educated guess place in to give teh claymore a head up b4 they awake. now we already knwo that both Clare adn Dev already gone past the 80% mark so too bad that 80% mark is not their limit. their limit is a bit higher then that so if they were to power up to say 80.1%, do they pass teh 80% limit that is standard to every other claymore and ABs? yes by that standard and perspective, they did pass teh limit. did they really pass the limit? no, since they did a few test run and know that they can go pas teh 80% mark to get a little extra top end power boost, then just by going past teh 80% mark no longer passign teh limit from Dev adn Clare perspective. u see 3 group of people. ABs, other claymores and Dev+Clare. all 3 see same thing yet they all coem to different conclusion.

2: as it was already explain by maria earlier. She guess that they ahve already awaken. not an instant but a gradual awaken. now if that holds water, then the 80% mark limit no longer apply to Dev and Clare. How could they pass the limit when that 80% limit is no longer there for them??

now IMO discussion happen in forum such as this cause we want to discuss the possiblity. we want to touch on what is left out cause we all know that eh writter cant put everything in there. if we want to know what is written there, we all can read it on teh manga ourself.

[chibamonster]

@Dunames: So Clare and Deneve went over their limit and did not go over their limit. Now we are in quantum theory. Schrödinger's cat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schrödinger's_cat) is both alive and dead. The very act of analyzing the characters effects what happens to them and can even destroy the events of the story it seems. We cannot both look at a character and understand the events they are experiencing as the very act of analyzing it will destroy one or the other. Better to run a thought experiment and have all possibilities available to the characters at the same time lest we kill them by deciding on a discrete event they experienced. Does viewing these characters as quantum phenomenon sound about right for these theories then? Nothing like getting some real world science to explain the story.

I actually have some bias against quantum theory as well...

[Sleepy Speculator]

lol at the last sentence... could it be any smaller?

shall we call quits on the difference in inductive and deductive reasoning and all just get along...

[Vinak]

sorry, I don't play Dice.

[Cyclone]

What is Yuma's first response when she pwns 2 MiB's and 3 Claymores?
Chapter 83 page 20
Yuma: That was number 14? Her sword was practically standing still to me. It is like I have become far stronger than I realized. Which begs the question, since I don't experience the same thing with the others, just how much stronger have they all become?


The problem is not that Yuma is the weakest of the 7 ghosts (there is more than enough evidence to support this), it's that she's stronger than Ms. #14. By defeating #14, Yuma proved that ALL SEVEN of the ghosts are single digit territory.

If we assume that potential is locked, and that Awakening releases all your potential, it means that Yuma awakening would actually make her weaker than her current self. The reason is that single digits should be able to solo the typical awakened #40-ish.

Now the other problem - all the ghosts are stronger than Yuma and they therefore can solo them too. Tabitha was #31 and by Yuma's statement we can assume is currently stronger than Yuma. Tabitha would give her awakened self a pretty good fight too. In fact all of the ghosts made a huge leap. And I remind you, we have no indication that either Yuma or Tabitha ever partially awakened (and since they're cloaked now, we have evidence to the contrary), so partial awakenings have nothing to do with this.

I would hazard to guess that if Carla, Matilda, Juliana, or Diana survived Pieta (all 39 or lower) they'd all be really strong now too (after training with the ghosts) - and all be strong enough to kick their their own awakened butts now.

This does not make sense to me - infact it runs counter to just about everything we have seen so far. The Awakened Being version should be stronger than the Claymore version - even offensive types can re-grow limbs once awakened due to the increased youki.

So we get to the question of "youki quality" / "youki reserves". Whether you're increasing the size of the gas tank, or simple using higher octance gas, the result is the same - you drive farther. And, for a Claymore continuing this power boost by doing a youki release will get you more power still. The result is the same in either case - a stronger Claymore than the awakened version of the same Claymore a few years earlier. If this trained Claymore awakened, it's only logical they get even more powerful still. That's really all Riful said. Whether it's a new 500 gallon gas tank, or a new super condensed fuel that gets 250 mpg, the result is the same - being able to go really really far.

Are there insurmountable gaps? Sure - no one will ever approach Teresa. But let's not forget, this is a shounen manga, and principles like studying and training are gerenally expoused in this genre. Saying that someone can train all they want and they'd still suck goes very much against the grain. Someone who sucks may not be able to take top spot from a natural genius who also trains very hard, but not being able to move up at all would be very disappointing to me (as hard work would essentially be rendered meaningless [something I don't think that Yagi believes in personally]). But then again, who knows, since, unlike us, Claymores are blessed with bodies that don't age, it may even be possible for them to test out the Japanese expression: "you're 100 years too early to ..." and see if it holds true.

And please, keep it civil next time, chiba - the outburst at Gangsta was... unsightly.

[chibamonster]

@Cyclone: I am a firm believer that characters get stronger :D. I don't know where people keep getting that I think that the awakened form releases all potential. I think Priscillas awakening was unique as it was specifically mentioned that she DID release all of her potential (even if she doesn't use it).

I mean shonen law shows that people have to get stronger. But the balance of power is never fair in most shonen. Krillan could never compete with Super Sayajin goku. Chad will never compete with Ichigo. Sasuke and Naruto are in a league of their own compared to their peers. Of course, that is shonen jump and this is jump square, so maybe things are a bit different.


@Cyclone: I don't think the claymores are ranked just by potential :D. If that were the case, Miria would have surpassed Hilda before she ever met her and Miata would already be ranked #1. No, they have to strive towards their potential. Some just have so much potential that it does not matter. Priscilla didn't know how to sword fight well and Irene, who had been working on mastering her quicksword since she had met Teresa last, took one look at her and acknowledged her power. I think the lower end Claymores are a mix of true weakness and people who have not even come close to their potential. Yuma, Miria and Undine seem to be good examples of people who have improved. The partially awakened Claymores took a different route as well. But there are giants in the world of Claymore, like the Abyssals and those beyond them. They did not get there by training harder than others. They just are stronger. We do not know why such gaps in potential exist. We theorize, but we do not know. That is what I mean by insurmountable differences in potential.

So I think working harder can make a Claymore get close to their potential which will make them a stronger AB, but can they raise their own potential? Not from anything we have seen yet. Personally I hope that they are able to raise it, so I will keep looking for it in the future.


While I hoped the ghosts were single digit (especially the partially awakened ones) Helen and Deneve got out maneuvered by a good #8. Yuma could probably take Nina (who relies on the shadow hunting youki sensing even if she is very fast) but I think she would struggle against Deitrich. Helen, who is apparently faster, still had Deitrich save her from injury. And hey, Helen was told in the slasher's arc that she could rival the bottom half of the single digits. The single digits of this generation are full of surprises. Yuma may or may not be single digit material as this generation seems to be top heavy on strength.

Fights go all sorts of ways. The element of surprise (like not realizing a claymore is fighting you as opposed to a human for both #14 and Ophelia) is huge. Cloaking is huge. Use of techniques is huge. Clare, using no youki, was able to fend off gold eyed vein popping #4 Ophelia because of her technique. Can technique make claymores stronger? Yes it can. Do we know Yuma's technique yet? I don't (yeah yeah, yuma punch). She knocked out #14 with what looked like a drill sword. She took out the AB's upper body with what looked like Undine's Bulk up technique to throw her sword. Do I think technique can take out stronger AB's? Clare certainly showed it can. Claymores with less youki can absolutely take ones with higher youki (like Galatea vs. Miata and Agatha at the same time) but there comes a point where nothing else but raw power matters; Rigardo ended up fighting Clare because she has Teresa's potential in her. Isley vs. Luciella showed that even years difference in age and experience leave them level on the abyssal battlefield.

And hey, some claymores could take themselves as AB's. Ophelia would wreck her AB form. Mental aspects are another thing that is huge in Claymore. As youki ties to the very soul of the claymore I think it may be one of the most important things. I mean attitude determines whether a Claymore's flesh makes them better at offense or defense.

The thing that made me mad was the idea that nothing is set in the story and the author had not really said anything that he really meant. That means that every single bit of information is fluid and no analysis can be had. Instead of looking at what the manga says, people look at what is not said as just as valid. This gives us only our own machinations. And using ones background in science as evidence as opposed to points from the story? That one hit a soft spot with me. I meant to attack Gangsta's attitude on the subject, not him as he is obviously very intelligent. I am absolutely willing to be wrong on this potential thing. In my first post I even mentioned that I hope Claymores CAN raise their potential. I just have not seen it yet. And yes, potential is a real thing in the series addressed several times and is sensed by some of the best in the series even without youki being emitted. Potential is something very important in this story.

Speculation doesn't need to make up things that the author has already said. I guess it could, but I don't see the reason and label it fan fiction. There are so many important points to the story that we do not address while looking at things that absolutely happened. For instance, Religion plays a HUGE part in the story. We don't talk about Clare or Galatea's beliefs even though one is a nun, and STAYED a nun, and Clare (who was baptized) prayed to the God of Rabona that Raki would be safe and had her prayer answered. That has not been addressed much and absolutely is part of the story. Why make up things that are not in the story because, "all possible controdictions have not been answered"? There are so many things to look at that actually are interesting and are actually a part of the story we have already seen, not ambiguities where we could fit something else in. Aliens, lets add aliens to the story! And Space ships! Mecha armor! There is nothing irrefutably countering these things existence in the story so they could therefore exist because I like space ships Aliens and Mecha. Isn't that enough? I'd rather look at why did Riful let Clare, Jean and Galatea go? Did Alicia scare her that much? Then of course there are all the things going on right now.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Muhaha, only 950 kanjis more to go :D

When next chapter is out, I can start learning real Japanese :)

Expect Isley to team up with Helen and Devene somehow. Or those zombies turn out to be parts of Isley body. That will be a twist :D

Uhm... Isley feminine side? :D

[Cyclone]

@Cyclone: I am a firm believer that characters get stronger :D. I don't know where people keep getting that I think that the awakened form releases all potential. I think Priscillas awakening was unique as it was specifically mentioned that she DID release all of her potential (even if she doesn't use it).

I mean shonen law shows that people have to get stronger. But the balance of power is never fair in most shonen. Krillan could never compete with Super Sayajin goku. Chad will never compete with Ichigo. Sasuke and Naruto are in a league of their own compared to their peers. Of course, that is shonen jump and this is jump square, so maybe things are a bit different.






While I hoped the ghosts were single digit (especially the partially awakened ones) Helen and Deneve got out maneuvered by a good #8. Yuma could probably take Nina (who relies on the shadow hunting youki sensing even if she is very fast) but I think she would struggle against Deitrich. Helen, who is apparently faster, still had Deitrich save her from injury. And hey, Helen was told in the slasher's arc that she could rival the bottom half of the single digits. The single digits of this generation are full of surprises. Yuma may or may not be single digit material as this generation seems to be top heavy on strength.

Fights go all sorts of ways. The element of surprise (like not realizing a claymore is fighting you as opposed to a human for both #14 and Ophelia) is huge. Cloaking is huge. Use of techniques is huge. Clare, using no youki, was able to fend off gold eyed vein popping #4 Ophelia because of her technique. Can technique make claymores stronger? Yes it can. Do we know Yuma's technique yet? I don't (yeah yeah, yuma punch). She knocked out #14 with what looked like a drill sword. She took out the AB's upper body with what looked like Undine's Bulk up technique to throw her sword. Do I think technique can take out stronger AB's? Clare certainly showed it can. Claymores with less youki can absolutely take ones with higher youki (like Galatea vs. Miata and Agatha at the same time) but there comes a point where nothing else but raw power matters; Rigardo ended up fighting Clare because she has Teresa's potential in her. Isley vs. Luciella showed that even years difference in age and experience leave them level on the abyssal battlefield.

And hey, some claymores could take themselves as AB's. Ophelia would wreck her AB form. Mental aspects are another thing that is huge in Claymore. As youki ties to the very soul of the claymore I think it may be one of the most important things. I mean attitude determines whether a Claymore's flesh makes them better at offense or defense.

The thing that made me mad was the idea that nothing is set in the story and the author had not really said anything that he really meant. That means that every single bit of information is fluid and no analysis can be had. Instead of looking at what the manga says, people look at what is not said as just as valid. This gives us only our own machinations. And using ones background in science as evidence as opposed to points from the story? That one hit a soft spot with me. I meant to attack Gangsta's attitude on the subject, not him as he is obviously very intelligent. I am absolutely willing to be wrong on this potential thing. In my first post I even mentioned that I hope Claymores CAN raise their potential. I just have not seen it yet. And yes, potential is a real thing in the series addressed several times and is sensed by some of the best in the series even without youki being emitted. Potential is something very important in this story.

Speculation doesn't need to make up things that the author has already said. I guess it could, but I don't see the reason and label it fan fiction. There are so many important points to the story that we do not address while looking at things that absolutely happened. For instance, Religion plays a HUGE part in the story. We don't talk about Clare or Galatea's beliefs even though one is a nun, and STAYED a nun, and Clare (who was baptized) prayed to the God of Rabona that Raki would be safe and had her prayer answered. That has not been addressed much and absolutely is part of the story. Why make up things that are not in the story because, "all possible controdictions have not been answered"? There are so many things to look at that actually are interesting and are actually a part of the story we have already seen, not ambiguities where we could fit something else in. Aliens, lets add aliens to the story! And Space ships! Mecha armor! There is nothing irrefutably countering these things existence in the story so they could therefore exist because I like space ships Aliens and Mecha. Isn't that enough? I'd rather look at why did Riful let Clare, Jean and Galatea go? Did Alicia scare her that much? Then of course there are all the things going on right now.

Quite frankly, I don't see what the huge fuss is with Deitrich. She is the first Claymore of the new generation to not suck completely. But Helen and Deneve being out-manouvered? Not the way I see it. When Deitrich 'saved' Helen from the AB, it looked to me that Helen was just suprised that Deitrich was behind her (at that point Helen still did not know who was the priority target for - her or the AB). The surprise at Dietrich getting involved at all shattered any concentration at fighting the AB (was a pincer attack coming?) - and Deitrich simple pulled Helen out of the way - something Helen was more than capable of herself if not for the intrusion. I think it was a plot device to show where her loyalties were, not to make her super powerful or anything.

Much has been made of Dietrich's endurance in this thread too - I fail to see why. The duo said that Deitrich's speed is only 1/2 of theirs, and it didn't look like either Helen or Deneve was winded (for all we know their endurance is greater than hers). I think they could have gotten away easy enough if they really wanted to, but at some point it's easier to confront problem rather than exterting yourself to run away from it. I mean really - why should they run? It's not like they can't beat her easily if they get serious. She can't hurt them. Easiest course of action is dialog in this situation.

Besides, as mentioned before, Dietrich is an unknown quantity. She seems better - at the very least tactically - than Rune (Renee), Rachel or Audrey (she at least didn't get knocked out by the ghosts), and hence this led to many speculations about her being a Partially awakened Claymore. There is a lot we don't know about her, so using her to gauge power levels is probably not appropriate.

As for Yuma - it was not surpise attack or special skill that defeated #14. It was plain uber 1337 skillz - afterall, how can you lose if you see your opponent's attacks as if they were in slow-motion (that's pure Yuma's skill - not the result of any handicap #14 had against her)? The particular finishing move Yuma decided to use had very little to deciding her victory.

And about Ophelia being able to fight her awakened self... I don't know, but I think it's unlikely. Irene's arm was quite a power-up for Clare (one with which she'd defeat Claymore Ophelia easily with). The only reason Clare won against the Awakened version was because Ophelia basically let her win. Even in the Rubel/Rimuto discussion, the notion that Ophelia had awakened was mentioned to help corraborate how ridiculous it'd be for #47 to beat an awakened #4. I don't know just how large the power difference between AB Ophelia and Claymore Ophelia is, but I suspect it's there and not minor. And Claymore Ophelia was left for dead by the single digit AB (a tear instead of a twist and no more Ophelia - bad choice on the AB's part).

One inconsitancy in your favour, is Clare vs Flora. Putting Clare on roughly equal terms with Flora, would mean AB Ophelia would have dropped more than 4 ranks, but I think it's just Clare holding back a little to trying to avoid killing Flora, and Ophelia not really trying when she figured out what happened to her.

The main reason I still think that fighting power does not go down in the AB form is the awakening process itself. I mean, most Claymores awaken because they seek power (see Deneve's speech to Undine), at the cost of all these negative emotions (big black lump, etc). I mean what kind of rip off would it be if you awaken and get worse? "I need to be faster. I need to be FASTER!", and suddenly a big ball and chain materialized attached to your foot? Nah - it doesn't make any sense to me for it to be anything but a power up. Afterall, awakening is a trade worthy of Faust - your human soul for power. If the power is not forthcoming, there is no point in making the trade.

[chibamonster]

@Cyclone: Well, Helen and Deneve do actually praise Deitrich. "No, this one is good." So thinking Deitrich has some skill is backed up by the characters, not just new fan-boy-ism. Even before Helen and Deneve jump in, Deneve says that Deitrich is the only one who could handle the AB. When Helen jumps in she actually gets in over her head and Deneve stops an attack on page 17 of chapter 85. They fail to drop her unconscious and Helen is confused. The AB actually does very well considering both Helen and Deneve try to use kill shots and fail. Deitrich impresses Deneve with her jump fatality even. As Deneve said, even before her endurance test, "this one is good." Catching up to them also is something that seriously worries them and surprises them. It would be cool if Deitrich were another partially awakened claymore though.

For the rest of the top Claymores of this generation we are kind of stuck in a sad situation for comparison because we are looking at them compared against Riful and other serious monsters. Galatea, Clare and Jean cowered before Riful in the previous generation. This generation just seems to be cocky, but I think they have plenty of power and actually work together which makes them very dangerous. The ghosts knocked Audrey's team out AFTER Riful had grabbed and impaled them. Audrey even got a torture scene. Nina got ambushed by 3 coordinated male AB's in a long range attack, which is very rare. Duff and Isley do it, and it is devastating. Nina would have taken the AB they were assigned to, but she got outsmarted tactically even though she was a pretty good leader as I see it (leaving Clarice was probably the right choice.) Renee, of course, ran into Priscilla, Duff, Riful and Raphaluciella. These claymores get the worst of the last generations trials in a brief format. Miata is a child and follows orders, even bad ones, which also complicates her. I think this generation has a lot of strength and is quite top heavy, especially because they have Alicia sitting at the top of their ranks. When these single digits appear under better circumstances I think they will be much much more impressive.

For Flora vs. Clare it was raw power of Irene's arm vs. raw power of Flora. Clare even clarifies she will use the borrowed power after Flora is horribly saddened by Clare's own abilities. And as we know from the time skip, Windcutter does not require any youki output and is un-sensable. Clare also has an ability that, in my opinion, is much more advanced than her quicksword; she has Teresa's youki sensing. Unable to use that on Flora she conceded that they were about equal with their arms flailing about. But in an actual battle situation where an AB's power is leaking everywhere Clare is MUCH more powerful than Flora could ever hope to be. Quicksword + Youki Sensing is super powerful. With it Clare was able to single handedly hold off Duff's attacks; something that she and Galatea failed to do working together without the ability. Techniques in Claymore can rock opponents socks off and Quicksword or Windcutter + youki sensing is hax.

Re-looking at Yuma's Gar moments, she has some crazy Techniques that she actually does use. She split kicks the first 2 claymores but #14 gets a technique that thrusts the broad side of her own sword into her own stomach. I am excited to see what Yuma's technique actually is. I am speculating she does something like Undine's youki power up (an ability which can take a weak claymore and make them far stronger) but without the youki. How I don't know, but she has muscle bulges everywhere. Clare does something similar against her first flying youma, but she releases youki. It seems like Yuma can strengthen her body. She even has sound effects- *gi-gshi* so it is not the standard youki *biki biki* but something is definitely happening.

[Awakened]

Having unlimited power is unrealistic.
A writer has to be really good to pull this off in a story, after all, a one sided fight is no fun.

If Claymore's had unlimited power then Isley and Riful would be unbeatable, they have been around for ages. Noob Priscilla is stronger than them, this means that their powers have a cap.

Can a Claymore be a more powerful Ab if they get stronger before they awakened, without having unlimited power?

Yes, there are some clues in the story. Yagi chose to give Clare an increase in yoki quality instead of a yoki increase. If you think of wine, you can see that wine gets stronger with time. This has to do with the interaction between the chemicals in the win. If we apply this to Claymore, we can assume that the Claymore and the implanted yoma are becoming one, just like Racilia.

We are also introduced to potential power. I don't know how many ways this can be interpreted but for me it means that some people are able to use all the power available to them and some are not able too.

If you combine increase in yoki quality and potential power, you can see that there is the possibility for a Claymore that has reached her full potential by maximizing their yoki quality to be a more powerful Ab.

Edit: Even if Abs are able to increase their yoki quality, it will still take them some time to get to their full potential. Priscilla reached her potential instantly, but it might take other Claymores longer to reach there potential.

[Cyclone]

@chiba:
oh no doubt that Dietrich is the best of the new generation - even though I don't think catching up to Helen and Deneve exactly "worried" them, nor do I think Helen was in over her head.

Rune/Renee I wouldn't really fault for her situation if it was not for the fact that she is the current eye. As the eye, I expect her to see through Pricilla quicker than Pricilla actually having to touch her, and she should have sensed Riful at least 5 seconds before she was attacked no matter how quickly Riful was moving. Riful gives off enough youki for an eye to be able to detect that much. As for the fights themselves - well, as you say, with the opponents she's facing, tthe outcome was inevitable.

Rachel and Audrey were up against Riful, so yes the fight was not 'fair'. In fact anything but a complete trouncing would be quite the achievement. The problems lie in how they were defeated, more than that they actually were defeated though. They are numerous:
1) They know who they are fighting, yet are cocky. As #3 and #5, they should be aware of the power of a #1, and when you add an awakening to that... it should at least make them pause to think - or at the very least, be a little cautious. They proved their recklessness and arrogance.
2) They are unable to sense Riful's power. Their attacks have no effect, yet they still continue to to believe they are invincible. That's just stupid.
3) They use Riful's body as a spring board. They walk all over her. That's just plain dumb. Never occur to them that that might be a bad idea? Her body is made of ribbon tantacles for pete's sake.
4) Even Riful (in one of the funniest panels in the whole manga) is disappointed with a "don't tell me... that was it?". Clearly she was expecting a little more out of a #3 and #5 too. The fact she was ambivalent whether they awaken or not supports this too.
5) Audrey pees herself from fear. I'm sure all the great Klingon Warriors do that as well... She's fit for daycare, let alone battle. Can you imagine Galatea-sama or Jean doing that?
It's their decisions and behaviour, not their results, that prove they are incompetant.

Miata is doing alright, but Galatea-sama was fighting 2.01 on 1 and somewhat holding her own. Considering Miata is supposed to be #1 material... well... I'm thankful she wasn't any better.

[Awakened]

Miata is doing alright, but Galatea-sama was fighting 2.01 on 1 and somewhat holding her own. Considering Miata is supposed to be #1 material... well... I'm thankful she wasn't any better.

Miata was also weakened by Agata.

[chibamonster]

@Cyclone:
Well, Helen and Deneve do look back and forth at each other and say, "this is bad. What should we do?" "this isn't good at all." "I didn't think we couldn't lose her!" They could not shake the chick, and they were certainly trying. The ghosts got away from Riful in a forest, so Deitrich has some mad skills :D.

It is probably just me reading expressions to say Helen is in trouble. I don't think she would have died by any means, but the AB got in some extra attacks that she did not expect. On page 17 of chapter 85 Helen lops off one of the AB's arms and says, "is that it?". Then in the next panel you see the AB's other right hand coming at her. In the next panel you see Helen's worried face. There is a use of screen tone over her face (either indicating shadow or intense emotion in Yagi's case) with an "Eh?" followed by Deneve then dropping down and taking off the very right arm Helen is being attacked with.

On page 21 of the same chapter when they have all scattered under the AB's double fisted slam, Helen finds herself staring at the AB's mouth full of tendrils. "Ack, it's coming right for me." Then Deitrich snakes behind her, despite having jumped the opposite direction from Helen during the beasts attack, the same way Deneve did. Helen says, "Damn it!" probably in reference to Deitrich. Deneve then screams in concern for Helen as Deitrich pulls Helen out of the way of the tendrils. I didn't check the raws, so I am not sure if Helen is referring to the AB or Deitrich, and considering Helen's rough voice, I doubt I'd be able to tell. Maybe I'll look it up later.

Then they talk for a moment, go pull the other claymores out of the water (That is right, Denve is carrying 3 swords, yet again). Deneve then swan dives down to the AB, skips along its tendrils, takes out 2 of its eyes and makes room for a drill sword attack which Helen misses, and is actually quite frustrated with. "Tch! I aimed straight at its brain!" The AB then sends another arm after Helen, which is coming right down on her from above and behind. Deitrich lops off the arm coming after Helen on the way down, jumps off the AB's body, and performs a perfect fatality and even gives the monster a eulogy.

I don't think Helen was going to die, but she certainly was in dangerous situations and missed opportunities at least 3 times in this fight. Deneve was worried for her even. Deitrich excelled because she is an AB terminator, as are all of the new generation single digits. Unlike their predecessors, they fight every AB they come in contact with and hunt them down. Which brings us to the next part on Audrey and Rachel;

1) Rachel and Audrey are quite confident and cocky. From outward appearances, it seems they will defeat Riful. Yuma sure thinks so.

2) Riful is a master of cloaking her youki. Even Galatea praised her, and Galatea is the beautiful eye of the organization. Clare could not sense her. No one can sense her power without knowing the trick. I find it a little unfair to compare Audrey and Rachel to God Eye Galatea for youki sensing.

3) How else are they going to get to Riful :D.? Galatea sure tried it on Agatha. Attack the weak spot... if there is one. Audrey and Rachel even have a move they can use in the air, which is pretty darn cool. The problem comes when they can't set it up again. Well, that and there is the small fact that they are dwarfed in intelligence, speed, power, size, wit...

4) I think Riful was especially disappointed because she is looking for comrades for a reason. These two will not be able to help her awaken Raciella. Notice how happy she is when Clare appears again. She chit chats and wants to party. These two may be a bit strong, but they are not key players. Riful mentions this when she starts torturing Audrey, that she is not going to be careful and might just kill her.

5) Fear happens. I actually really liked that as it seemed to add a really human aspect to the story. That and it reinforced Riful's personality. Clare cried when Ophelia lopped off her second hand. Helen cried when she could do nothing against the 6 armed AB. And they were not having their stomach squeezed by an Abyssal. See what that does to your bowel movements. :twitch: I think it was the tendril right across her stomach.

And you know when Miata was introduced I was convinced they would use her as a blood hound against the ghosts. I wonder when her #1 potential issue will show up again.

Considering Renee she at leased sensed Riful. Riful is fast, so 5 seconds before hand she might have been out of range and cloaking herself :D. I can't fault anyone for not sensing Priscilla as even Teresa failed at that. Considering Priscilla has been doing something very strange for an AB for the last few years I think Renee could be a very good eye. She has been the first character to show us actually diving into the consciousness of another character with youki sensing so I think she's got some skills coming up. And hey, she's got braids!

[zato_1one]

The problem is not that Yuma is the weakest of the 7 ghosts (there is more than enough evidence to support this), it's that she's stronger than Ms. #14. By defeating #14, Yuma proved that ALL SEVEN of the ghosts are single digit territory.

If we assume that potential is locked, and that Awakening releases all your potential, it means that Yuma awakening would actually make her weaker than her current self. The reason is that single digits should be able to solo the typical awakened #40-ish.

Now the other problem - all the ghosts are stronger than Yuma and they therefore can solo them too. Tabitha was #31 and by Yuma's statement we can assume is currently stronger than Yuma. Tabitha would give her awakened self a pretty good fight too. In fact all of the ghosts made a huge leap. And I remind you, we have no indication that either Yuma or Tabitha ever partially awakened (and since they're cloaked now, we have evidence to the contrary), so partial awakenings have nothing to do with this.

I think this supports Riful's statement. Stronger Claymore = Stronger Awaken

If this gen's Claymore are really inferior to previous gen. And single digit looks weak. So what's the fuss about No.14? She may even be around No.30-40 if she is in previous gen. :)

my 2 cent

[Double_friedman]

haha your analysis/speculation with twins is exactly what i believe the org *has* done. The org has an experiment in which they require twins and we've all jumped to the conclusion that the Zemas the org bought are Alicia and Beth, which Raphealla just happened to overhear. The org was obviously split about how to make the ab they require, and whereas Alicia and Beth are the culmination of one set of twins they appropriated there's no indication they didn't have more, under different training regimes. Take Clare for example her life seems like a nightmare set up to create a traumatised and aggressive claymore. Before she even was taken as a trainee she encountered at least 2-8 yoma, at least 6 claymores and a gang of bandits who were likely involved with the org, oh and the most powerful Ab. To create the opposite you'd just need to have someone who is raised in a relatively peaceful and loving environment, and taken for training without any of the intermediate trauma.

I'm not entirely sure on Priscilla but there is the fact that Rubul said "it was as if" not just she reached her full potential but that she gained alot of it, and she was already a somewhat strong claymore deserving at least the #2 rank.

p.s a town full of yuma sounds nice, i'd like to holiday there...

OOh, know I'm thinking, maybe the Zema twins are not Alicia and Beth, maybe the org experimented with other twins and those failed experiments are the zombies.

[PureYoki]

Can anybody point me to the manga issue where Rubel says Priscilla realized her full potential? Thanks.

And how does Rubel know, how can it be known?

[zato_1one]

Can anybody point me to the manga issue where Rubel says Priscilla realized her full potential? Thanks.

And how does Rubel know, how can it be known?

He said he heard of it.

[Sleepy Speculator]

like all reliable info it came from hearing it from a friend of a friend, and ironically only Clare survived that encounter, and she wasn't a claymore at the time. (well Irene did as well, but...)

[Gooral]

(...) If we assume that potential is locked, and that Awakening releases all your potential, it means that Yuma awakening would actually make her weaker than her current self. The reason is that single digits should be able to solo the typical awakened #40-ish. (...)
I disagree with that. Where does it state that single digit should be able to solo typical awakened #40? And what is a typical awakened #40? How many awakened 40's have we seen?
A weakling like you could never fight me, let alone a powerful awakened being. - said Ophelia. But how does she know that? Has she awakened warriors #40+ and tested their abilities after awakening? Don't think so. She just assumed that someone that gives off such weak youki shouldn't be able to become powerful awakened. Riful has done the same. But for now we don't know if every now and then there are warriors whose youki appears to be weak but in reality they have great amounts of it hidden deeply in them and they slowly improve themselves. For all we know it could be like that with Priscilla. Sure she looked strong but after awakening she was exponentially stronger and exceeded even abyssals. How many people knew she would be stronger than anything? We don't have sufficient data to state that claymore after partial awakening/regular training would become stronger awakened, personally I doubt that. #32 was weak after awakening, but who knows how strong would be claymore that died because she resisted (i.e. had strong mind)?
IMO Yuma could reach single digit's status nonetheless if she was trained properly and with care. But most likely she would be dead in a few years after becoming a claymore, either because she would face too strong opponent or because she would rush it and like most claymores do, used too much youki in order to survive and sent a black card. Miria was #17 once (or even lower) but she rose to be #6. Yuma was #40 but who knows what number she would get after few years? Some claymores must take the long way and some don't. If training made such a difference Raphaela should be much stronger than Luciella but I doubt that's the case.

@PureYoki
vol. 5, p.116

[Cyclone]

I disagree with that. Where does it state that single digit should be able to solo typical awakened #40? And what is a typical awakened #40? How many awakened 40's have we seen?
A weakling like you could never fight me, let alone a powerful awakened being. - said Ophelia. But how does she know that? Has she awakened warriors #40+ and tested their abilities after awakening? Don't think so. She just assumed that someone that gives off such weak youki shouldn't be able to become powerful awakened. Riful has done the same. But for now we don't know if every now and then there are warriors whose youki appears to be weak but in reality they have great amounts of it hidden deeply in them and they slowly improve themselves. For all we know it could be like that with Priscilla. Sure she looked strong but after awakening she was exponentially stronger and exceeded even abyssals. How many people knew she would be stronger than anything? We don't have sufficient data to state that claymore after partial awakening/regular training would become stronger awakened, personally I doubt that. #32 was weak after awakening, but who knows how strong would be claymore that died because she resisted (i.e. had strong mind)?
IMO Yuma could reach single digit's status nonetheless if she was trained properly and with care. But most likely she would be dead in a few years after becoming a claymore, either because she would face too strong opponent or because she would rush it and like most claymores do, used too much youki in order to survive and sent a black card. Miria was #17 once (or even lower) but she rose to be #6. Yuma was #40 but who knows what number she would get after few years? Some claymores must take the long way and some don't. If training made such a difference Raphaela should be much stronger than Luciella but I doubt that's the case.

It's never stated, but I don't think it's far fetched.
We have Ophelia #4, who solos a Awakened single digit. It's probably not the first AB she's fought alone either, judging by her personallity and attitude during her meeting with Clare and the Hilda flashback.

We also know from Pieta, that there exist ABs of different skills. The first 3 to attack were weaker in in both quantity and quality of youki then the ABs from the second wave were. From Riful, we find out that a #32 like Katea creates an AB on the lower end of the youki scale, and the clear implication from the statement "this is all that can be expected from a warrior in the 30s" is that ABs get stronger as the rank increases.

So with Ophelia being able to care of an Awakened single digit, I don't think it's much of a stretch to assume that Someone like Miria could take care of a generic awakened #20 at least and someone like Jean to be able to take care of a #35+. I don't think it's too unreasonable considering all we've been told.

[zato_1one]

A weakling like you could never fight me, let alone a powerful awakened being. - said Ophelia.

I think Ophelia means Clare couldn't fight her so that she also couldn't fight that single digit AB.

I want to remind of something that if Ophelia's body wasn't special, she had already died from neck twisting.

[Cyclone]

@Cyclone:
Well, Helen and Deneve do look back and forth at each other and say, "this is bad. What should we do?" "this isn't good at all." "I didn't think we couldn't lose her!" They could not shake the chick, and they were certainly trying. The ghosts got away from Riful in a forest, so Deitrich has some mad skills :D.

It is probably just me reading expressions to say Helen is in trouble. I don't think she would have died by any means, but the AB got in some extra attacks that she did not expect. On page 17 of chapter 85 Helen lops off one of the AB's arms and says, "is that it?". Then in the next panel you see the AB's other right hand coming at her. In the next panel you see Helen's worried face. There is a use of screen tone over her face (either indicating shadow or intense emotion in Yagi's case) with an "Eh?" followed by Deneve then dropping down and taking off the very right arm Helen is being attacked with.

On page 21 of the same chapter when they have all scattered under the AB's double fisted slam, Helen finds herself staring at the AB's mouth full of tendrils. "Ack, it's coming right for me." Then Deitrich snakes behind her, despite having jumped the opposite direction from Helen during the beasts attack, the same way Deneve did. Helen says, "Damn it!" probably in reference to Deitrich. Deneve then screams in concern for Helen as Deitrich pulls Helen out of the way of the tendrils. I didn't check the raws, so I am not sure if Helen is referring to the AB or Deitrich, and considering Helen's rough voice, I doubt I'd be able to tell. Maybe I'll look it up later.

Then they talk for a moment, go pull the other claymores out of the water (That is right, Denve is carrying 3 swords, yet again). Deneve then swan dives down to the AB, skips along its tendrils, takes out 2 of its eyes and makes room for a drill sword attack which Helen misses, and is actually quite frustrated with. "Tch! I aimed straight at its brain!" The AB then sends another arm after Helen, which is coming right down on her from above and behind. Deitrich lops off the arm coming after Helen on the way down, jumps off the AB's body, and performs a perfect fatality and even gives the monster a eulogy.

I don't think Helen was going to die, but she certainly was in dangerous situations and missed opportunities at least 3 times in this fight. Deneve was worried for her even. Deitrich excelled because she is an AB terminator, as are all of the new generation single digits. Unlike their predecessors, they fight every AB they come in contact with and hunt them down. Which brings us to the next part on Audrey and Rachel;

1) Rachel and Audrey are quite confident and cocky. From outward appearances, it seems they will defeat Riful. Yuma sure thinks so.

2) Riful is a master of cloaking her youki. Even Galatea praised her, and Galatea is the beautiful eye of the organization. Clare could not sense her. No one can sense her power without knowing the trick. I find it a little unfair to compare Audrey and Rachel to God Eye Galatea for youki sensing.

3) How else are they going to get to Riful :D.? Galatea sure tried it on Agatha. Attack the weak spot... if there is one. Audrey and Rachel even have a move they can use in the air, which is pretty darn cool. The problem comes when they can't set it up again. Well, that and there is the small fact that they are dwarfed in intelligence, speed, power, size, wit...

4) I think Riful was especially disappointed because she is looking for comrades for a reason. These two will not be able to help her awaken Raciella. Notice how happy she is when Clare appears again. She chit chats and wants to party. These two may be a bit strong, but they are not key players. Riful mentions this when she starts torturing Audrey, that she is not going to be careful and might just kill her.

5) Fear happens. I actually really liked that as it seemed to add a really human aspect to the story. That and it reinforced Riful's personality. Clare cried when Ophelia lopped off her second hand. Helen cried when she could do nothing against the 6 armed AB. And they were not having their stomach squeezed by an Abyssal. See what that does to your bowel movements. :twitch: I think it was the tendril right across her stomach.

And you know when Miata was introduced I was convinced they would use her as a blood hound against the ghosts. I wonder when her #1 potential issue will show up again.

Considering Renee she at leased sensed Riful. Riful is fast, so 5 seconds before hand she might have been out of range and cloaking herself :D. I can't fault anyone for not sensing Priscilla as even Teresa failed at that. Considering Priscilla has been doing something very strange for an AB for the last few years I think Renee could be a very good eye. She has been the first character to show us actually diving into the consciousness of another character with youki sensing so I think she's got some skills coming up. And hey, she's got braids!

We'll have to disagree about the blinding awesomeness of Dietrich. I already said - she's not bad at all and deserves her current rank (or higher). I just don't think Helen and Deneve were in any trouble against that AB - it was more a nuisance than any real challenge to them.

Helen being saved was a hardly terrified "So it's coming at me, huh?" (ou? atashi ni kun no ka yo). When Dietrich appears next to her, the 'yabee... koitsu...' in in responce to Dietrich, not the AB. About Helen's missed head shot ('atama o hazushita ka...') - it was nothing serious.

Now as for Audrey and Rachel:
1) It's they were cocky knowing they were up against an Abyssal - not whether they could win or not. Yuma would not be cocky, even if she did think she had a prayer.

2) No - you don't understand. Their attacks are provably ineffective. Do they stop to re-evaluate or re-adjust? No - they continue being arrogant. If you ought to be having an easy time and are not, especially facing an Abyssal, it's time to re-evaluate. It's their judgement that's poor.

3) Daruma style I guess. Knock out the bottom bits, till the head gets close enough to attack- I don't know. How to attack Riful and not get killed is not something I have put a lot of thought into, but what doesn't work is fairly easy to identify. You will notice that when the ghosts attacked Agatha, their priority was getting her down first, instead of fighting on Agatha's raised tentacle platform.

4) It's as strong a Claymore she's gonna get from this generation, but that doesn't change the disappointment (sure the bulk of the disappointment is from neither being a sensing type Claymore, but still...).

5) You mean like Miria and the 6 armed AB? Crying is one thing, but uncontrolled bowel movements is another (it's not like Riful initiated it, since she was grossed out at being pissed on). But more than this, ideally, warriors are supposed to behave in certain ways (tough, brave, strong, etc). This is not how a warrior should behave (arrogant without being able to back it up, and a bladder they can't fully control). It's just not warrior like.

As for Renee - I guess I just expect better sensing abilities from an eye than she showed, that's all - maybe that's not fair to her though since the only points of clear reference is Galatea-sama (and perhaps the youki manipulating Pieta AB...).

[PureYoki]

Thanks for the info, Gooral. I think we shouldn't take Rubel's statement as a fact because Priscilla's latent potential was not something that could be measured.

IMO it's quite obvious a strong claymore makes a strong AB. If the strength of the AB form is constant, why was Alicia training so hard to get stronger? Training Beth would be enough. If with hard training even #40 Yuma has the potential to become single-digit, and if we assume awakening releases a claymore's latent potential, an average AB should have the strength of an awakened #5-#6. Most AB hunting teams would simply lose against such strong opposition, which we know is not the case.

I think Rafaela was not much stronger than Luciela because Luciela was already training hard for the soul-link process and she was probably close to her limit as a claymore.

[chibamonster]

@zato_1one: Lol, you are right. If this generation really is weak, then Yuma beating a number 14 may not mean much at all. Especially with 14 and her team being on pills to try to avoid detection for their search and rescue mission. I still liked Yuma's acrobatics and really want to know what her technique is. We know what all the other ghosts techniques are. Yuma's technique seems completely focused on battle strength (hulking up), where as Tabitha and Cynthia have more focus on aspects of youki reading and youki manipulation with their new techniques. But alas, we don't really know what Yuma's technique is.

@Cyclone: Actually the real dangerous times for Helen were the other two I pointed out. One where Deneve cut off the arm coming after Helen, one where Deitrich cut off the arm coming after Helen. The thing that impressed me most about Deitrich is that she out manouvered Helen and Deneve to pull Helen out of the way. Look at the panel where they jump and you can see that Deitrich and Deneve jump the same direction and Helen jumps the opposite way. But Deitrich still gets behind Helen while she is still in the air. Very impressive for someone whose speed is only "half" of theirs. Helen and Deneve have nothing but praise for Deitrich. Well, that and frustration because of the code she lives by.

I was actually very impressed by this AB as it put up more of a fight than almost anything we have seen against any of the ghosts post time skip. As for Audrey wetting herself, I guess I just like seeing human elements to these characters. Contrast builds character for me, so seeing someone who is refined and vain crying and wetting herself in fear is very fun for me. It is like beautiful Galatea having to switch to an ugly form to really do damage against Duff, which she even apologizes for. I also find it funny that Riful is concerned with her body being "stained" when the next thing she does is jam her ribbons into Audrey's body. More fun character development. The thing that actually was the funniest about Audrey is that after she is rescued she hits Helen and screams, "lemme go!" Oh? You'd rather be tortured? Okay...

Claymores overestimating themselves is not new with this generation, especially for the high ranked ones we have seen in the past. Noela and Sophia did it. I mean look at the whole fight against Teresa. Rosemary had a complex as well. Some Claymores are just jerks. Many don't realize the limit of their own power, especially against an opponent who is difficult to read. Ophelia had this same problem against Irene. Because of differences in power, some opponents in Claymore just cannot be defeated by even normally high powered warriors. Helen is running into this problem against Isley as she discovers that no matter how much damage she deals to him it does not really slow him down and he gets more and more powerful with each attack. Audrey and Rachel were approached by Riful. Deneve and Helen decided to go get a peep show of Isley. Arrogance can be found in many places.

For the #30's ranked claymores producing weak AB's, Riful still awakened Katea and tested her against Duff to make sure. Maybe for entertainment, maybe because she was hoping she would actually be strong. It seemed to me like the "aww, well I guess it is to be expected from a 30 something." was Riful's frustration coming out as she had actually hoped for much more. As the MiB's said, "The numbers do not represent an absolute ranking of power." We see cases like Miata, who has the potential to surpass #1, but has not yet realized it. There seem to be a number of factors involved in Claymores actually realizing their potential. It would seem that most do not.

@PureYoki: Rubel may not have been able to measure Priscilla's latent potential, but Teresa, Irene, Rigardo, Riful, Isley and Renee all did in the story. Rubel is a sneaky devil. Who knows where he gets his information? He even tracked down Raphaela to a cave, which impressed the placid cyclopes. Rubel's info on Priscilla matches up with other things we see in the story. Maybe the author was trying to tell us something. For potential not being something that can be measured, there are quite a few times where latent potential is measured in the story.

We do not know exactly what Alicia was training, but we have some information. She was not complete yet. It seemed to me like the training was working to get her complete. Even after Pieta the MiB's are frustrated because "She won't go past 95%!" So it seems like completion is Alicia making it to 100% youki output in a full awakening, but that is just what I put together from the vague statements we have about the twins. What the strain on her body increasing meant, I am not sure. Something like the twins doing double time jumping jacks? Who knows.

[dunames]

@Dunames: So Clare and Deneve went over their limit and did not go over their limit. Now we are in quantum theory. Schrödinger's cat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schrödinger's_cat) is both alive and dead. The very act of analyzing the characters effects what happens to them and can even destroy the events of the story it seems. We cannot both look at a character and understand the events they are experiencing as the very act of analyzing it will destroy one or the other. Better to run a thought experiment and have all possibilities available to the characters at the same time lest we kill them by deciding on a discrete event they experienced. Does viewing these characters as quantum phenomenon sound about right for these theories then? Nothing like getting some real world science to explain the story.

I actually have some bias against quantum theory as well...

this is what i mean by u being retard and close minded at time. u bring stuff that dotn even relate to the disscussion into the disscusion to prove nothing. the Schrodinger cat BS dotn even relate to this. what i'm talking about is perspective not quatum physic. what u bla bla on about is physic. 2 different thing. throwing stupid physic term to make u sound smart just make u that much dumber since it dotn even relate to the matter at hand.


1: from teh ABs perspective, 80% release is teh max limit a person can take b4 they awaken ans lose their humanity.
2: from the claymore perspective, 80% the the max a claymore can release b4 they awaken and lose their humanity
3: from Clare and Dev perspect, since they already gone pass teh 80% mark and did not lose their humanity, the 80% mark is not Clare or Dev limit.

when they were comfronted if they gone past their limit

to teh Abs, yes since the 80% is teh standard and both Clare and Dev goen pass it.

From teh teamate point of view, yes clare and dev gone past eh 80% mark as well so they pass the limit set for them by teh ORG

from both Clare and Dev point of view, teh limit si a point in which ur not able to go over yet they did and remain sane so in true that mark is not the limit for them both no off couse that did not go past their limit. now if they were already awaken, then teh limit no longer exists for them 2 so from their point of view they never did go over their limit sicne that limit was never there.

its all point of view base on each viewer background knowledge. thsi have nothign to do with stupid seal a cat in a box BS. chiba keep an open mind and also look at thing from broader point of view and not take stuff written stuff as fact. also keep in mind that all what u point as fact is nothign more then just another persons interpretation base on his own background knowledge of what the author actually wrote. all u doign by reference to those pages is nothign but point to just 1 fans interpretatin of what the author wrote. 1 fan intrepertation out of the millions of fan in the claymore community.

if all teh above is still too hard for u to get sicne u stuff ur brain with useless fantasy of sealign cats in a box for years to see if they are alive or not, here a simpler example.

AB: the 80% mark is the limit for any claymore. he see with his own eye that Clare release to 80.5%. DID CLARE PASS THE LIMIT? yes

Flora: the 80% mark is limit. She see Clare do a 80.5% release. Did Clare pass the limit? Yes

Clare:Clare have do 81%+ release b4 and done it serveral time. during the time in question Clare do a 80.5% release. Did Clare go over her limit? well could teh 80% be Clare limit if she gone beyond 81% already. so to Clare she did not go over her limit.

u see teh interpretation of the same event that all 3 see is base on their background knowledge. Both Flora and teh AB never knew that Clare have gone pass 80% many times B4. them 2 never know taht u can go pass teh 80% under certain condition. since they both never knew about it, they both hold teh 80% mark as a true limit for each and every body. Clare on teh other hand ahve gone past 80% and knew of serveral others whos done it as well. so to Clare the 80% marks is no longer the limit for them.

its all interpretation from different point of view. it have nothign to do with sealing a cat in a box for years and try to theorize if its alive or dead with 100% certianty.

[PureYoki]

Rubel may not have been able to measure Priscilla's latent potential, but Teresa, Irene, Rigardo, Riful, Isley and Renee all did in the story. Rubel is a sneaky devil. Who knows where he gets his information?

Sorry, my comment was a little vague. I mean "How could Rubel or anybody else know Priscilla wouldn't be any stronger if she awakened, say, ten years later!" Teresa and Irene extrapolated Priscilla's future strength: "If she's that powerful at a young age, God knows how powerful she'll be in the future." They didn't comment on the strength of an awakened Priscilla. Rigardo and Isley witnessed Priscilla's monstrous yoki but could they know whether this was Priscilla's full potential or just a part of it due to her premature awakening? And if every awakening is a release of the full potential of a claymore, what was the point of Rubel in saying "When she awakened, it was as if her latent abilities were released"? It seems Priscilla is an exception but how did Rubel or his source know it? This is what I want to know.

Of course we can't answer this question right now, I hope to learn the answer later in the story but till then, Rubel's words will be a speculation. If we suppose Rubel was the means for the author to inform us about the subject, we should take all Rubel's statements for granted but it will hurt the story.

We do not know exactly what Alicia was training, but we have some information. She was not complete yet. It seemed to me like the training was working to get her complete. Even after Pieta the MiB's are frustrated because "She won't go past 95%!" So it seems like completion is Alicia making it to 100% youki output in a full awakening, but that is just what I put together from the vague statements we have about the twins. What the strain on her body increasing meant, I am not sure. Something like the twins doing double time jumping jacks? Who knows.

We don't know the details of their training but I assume Alicia's (not Beth's) training was similar to G7's seven years training. The org was trying to increase Alicia's power and speed step by step and it looks like it was an intense physical exercise that would strain Alicia to the point she would cough up blood. I may be wrong though.

[Gooral]

(...) If the strength of the AB form is constant, why was Alicia training so hard to get stronger? Training Beth would be enough. (...)
Do we even know at what stage of completion was Alicia back then? Maybe MiB were awakening her step by step (firstly only one finger, one hand, all limbs, etc.) so she could steadily control more of her awakened body. Someone might say then: "but they didn't know about partial awakening". We don't know that, we don't know which parts of Rubel's information were true, maybe organization knows about it. Or maybe they wouldn't think that what Alicia managed to do with Beth's help claymores could do by themselves. Also it might have sth to do with soul link, maybe better compatibility (soul resonance) => increased strain on the body + increased power.

[PureYoki]

Do we even know at what stage of completion was Alicia back then? Maybe MiB were awakening her step by step (firstly only one finger, one hand, all limbs, etc.) so she could steadily control more of her awakened body. Someone might say then: "but they didn't know about partial awakening". We don't know that, we don't know which parts of Rubel's information were true, maybe organization knows about it. Or maybe they wouldn't think that what Alicia managed to do with Beth's help claymores could do by themselves. Also it might have sth to do with soul link, maybe better compatibility (soul resonance) => increased strain on the body + increased power.

Alicia's handler was talking about a step by step increase in Alicia's power and speed, and the immense strain on Alicia. For example, awakening your legs doesn't give you a step by step increase, you immediately become much faster the moment you awaken your legs.

And I don't understand why Alicia's awakening would be such a burden on herself. As Rubel indicated, it was Beth who was doing the hardest job: to control Alicia's mind. Step by step partial awakening of Alicia would be a burden for Beth, not Alicia.

[Gooral]

(...) awakening your legs doesn't give you a step by step increase, you immediately become much faster the moment you awaken your legs. (...)
Good point, I didn't think of that but to argue a little more I'll stretch facts a bit :). <stupid arguments> "Raising power and speed by 30% step by step" could mean that "we will increase speed first, then strength". Also, legs are built from many muscles, tendons, etc. so first they would increase this and later that. Besides, awakening legs adds to speed AND overall power. </stupid arguments>
Almost forgot to write my base argument. We don't know if they were referring to awakened Alicia or not, if they were referring to Alicia in her claymore form...

As for soul link, we don't know much about it so I won't argue.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

I think one of the problems we have is the English language and how sometimes a word can mean two different closely related things, even in the same paragraph. An obvious example is the word love, and in this argument it is the word potential. That is why in the same sentence it could be both to describe something that is variable and something that is the ultimate limit. In math, for example we may have p₀ for inital potential and p subscript max for maximum potential. But let me go back to the example of twins and show that at least for humans one concept of potential is variable. Okay, now we have these two twins that were seperated at birth. Initially, both twins had the same potential. Now one twin went to a wealthy family, who fed her well, and she received a good education. The other twin somehow ended up in the third world and suffers from malnutrition, and has no education. Well we know for certain by the rules of this world that malnutritioned people don't grow as tall as they should. So when they are certain age one twin will likely be taller than the other. In effect, you have raised the maximum potential of the well fed twin over an averagely fed version, and you have lowered the maximum potential of underfed twin compared to the average. So, at least for humans, potential is not constant, or at least one concept the word is used for. If that is the case for humans, then I have problems seeing why that isn't the case for Claymore.

@Cylicone: We agree on a lot of things and you've said what I wanted to say better than myself.

@Chiba: About giving quotes from the story for References to back up my theory, I think that maybe we have different purposes here. I was doing a bit more of casual posting, and I don't think I have ever mentioned what I believe in full detail, just interjecting bits and pieces to add onto a discussion that was going on here. My purpose was never to debate on theory over another, or to disprove any theory. In fact, I enjoy that there are a few different theories out there and I would like to hear more; I enjoyed yours. And at this point of time there are a lot of unknowns out there that makes it impossible to determine which theory Yagi believes in. So while I agree that if I was debating to say that my theory is true, or debating it over yours, that I should back it up with evidence from the story. But the thing is, again, I was casually posting, and not making any such claims. Unless you remember where everything is in a story, doing research and pulling out specific lines from the story is time consuming and would require more time and effort than I'm willing to give, and totally end the casual nature of my posting here. I really should get back to writing myself and my end of the wall of text here has already got a friend of mines to fuss at me for not commenting on her outline for a story she's working on, "BTW, are you only allowed to respond to one email a day? Or did you not get the outline for the first arc of the story?" :D See you got me in trouble! And we both agree on somethings. We both think that some characters misrepresent things; we both think that the Author also uses the characters to speak to us. We disagree on which instances. I believe the bit about Priscilla gaining all of her potential at once from what rubel said. I don't think Priscilla is an exception like Clare is, so to me that applies to all Claymores when awakening. I also believe what Riful had said, which is a spot of much disagreement to us, when I read that, to me, it felt like it was the author talking to me. You've given support and a valid argument on why she reached that conclusion to support your theory. I like what Sleepy Spectator interpreted on that bit. Now as for what Cynthia says about Clare, well, I think people just constantly underestimate Clare, and I don't think the trend has ended, even if they know she is strong now. I could be totally wrong here, but I'm taking a wait and see approach to see what yagi shows me. Cyclone pretty much explained my position about #47 vs #15. I do feel the current generation is less spactacular and that the organization has put its eggs in the Alicia and Beth Basket. That doesn't mean that I believe that a #15 is now a #30, since the organization has changed its policy of hunting awakened beings, so that means that the single digits still need to be able to lead a team for a hunt. I think Dietrich is spectacular. I could see an Ophelia keeping up with Helen and Deneve too. Rene though she seems a bit arrogant seems competent enough. I still don't understand why strength and speed are up and why endurance should stay the same. Helen did some major damage on Isley. Now back to the #15 vs. #40, I also believe what Rene said. That the 40's hardly ever move up in rank and usually end up dead. Yuma says something that supports that statement about her being thankful that she was able to survive with our magnificent seven. So it seems to me that #40's usually don't move up, and that the awakened beings that they become usually are low, and should be able to be beaten by a single digit. Ophelia was able to beat a single digit AB. Shouldn't a #15 be able to beat a #40 AB? And yes, you can probably make a good argument of why the answer is no, which is why I don't consider that a fact. It is just support for an alternate theory to yours to stand on. Now to science, its foundation is actually Philosophy, which uses logic to make theories stand on. And a philosophical concept is to remain open minded and accept that your theory might not be right and that an opposing theory can have just as much ground to stand on. I also enjoy Philosophy, and that is also another reason I don't take things as absolutes, and why science doesn't either. Anyway talking about philosophy, Socrates is considered by many to be the greatest philosopher of them all, though that is mainly hearsay from the likes of Plato, his student. Now one thing Socrates was very good at as debate, and he would usually always win those, which was why he was put to death. The reason I mention this, and it can be abused to win arguments if used in bad faith, is the way Socrates argued. He had his theory, and he would ask a lot of questions of the person he was debating with about points in their theory, so they would think about it, and you can lead someone into seeing your side of the argument that way. So if there is something you disagree with, a problem with another a theory, it would be a lot more helpful that instead of criticizing it you ask a question about that particular part. If there is something that is illogical about what someone else says, then often times you can let them see it by doing so. Anyway, sorry if I didn't get to address everything you brought up, but it is only six minutes till I have to leave for work now.

[Gooral]

@Gangsta Spanksta
I don't see it like that. IMO there can't be maximum of maximum. What you're saying is that first twin reached global maximum and second only local maximum but they both are defined by the same function and both could reach the top nonetheless, however one had bad luck and some of domain was taken from him. (I know that's gibberish - analogy of analogy and inaccurate at that but I don't know how to express it in english).
Also, the problem is we have half-humans that magically increase 10 times in size or speed instantly. They don't play by the same rules humans do.

[Sleepy Speculator]

you forgot to mention the difficulty of having a protaginist that was a half half human to which a different set of rules apply.

[chibamonster]

@Gangsta Spanksta: Looking at twins like that is applying real world ideas to a fictional closed system. In the world of Claymore, the twin with the worst upbringing might actually become stronger one just as Priscilla hates Youma more than anyone, Alicia doesn't have a personality, Miata and Ophelia were messed up in the brain, and Isley, Luciella and Riful seem to just be smarter than everyone else in a cunning way. I think the twins were taken as infants for a reason.

As I said to Fenrir and Irving, applying real world physics, science, theory etc to a world where humans can change into monsters the size of houses or castles in an instant seems a little silly for me. It reminds me of a conversation a fan had with Stan Lee about the Hulk (at least I think it was Stan. It might have been Jack Kirby). They asked, "How can the hulk keep the same pants on when he changes form when his shirt obviously explodes off of him?" The response, "You believe that a human can turn into a giant green man twice his normal size and keeping his pants on is what bothers you?"

As for the Socratic approach, it is very very difficult to do on a forum. It takes forever (days and days...). I have done it before a few times, and even gotten people to say my very theory as their own, the opposite of what they initially started at. The problem is that at that point the discussion is over for me, and mentioning this people go ballistic. Really nuts. So as a faster approach I put on the heat to see what people actually stand behind. I probably took it too far this time. This way the forum usually gets behind what they actually think. The Socratic method of arguing actually shares quite a few similarities with the techniques of brain washing (well, minus the sleep deprivation) which is also fascinating to me.

@Dunames: in the most recent issue, chapter 87, Deneve said she had to go over her limit to heal, just like she did before. When she did it before Galatea could tell that she had awakened and then returned even though she did not believe it. The limit has never shown any indication of moving beyond 80%. Characters have gone further and further past it, like Alicia, Clare and Jean but there is no indication that the limit has ever moved for anyone. The partially awakend claymores still have a limit, they just get to use more incredible techniques at lower youki output because the quality of their youki has changed.

I brought up the Deneve and Clare crossing their limit thing because they absolutely did cross their limit in the north against the youki manipulating AB, even though there is much hesitance and misunderstanding about it by the other characters. I was attacking the standpoint that all things in the story are flexible.

[irvinethearcher]

As I said to Fenrir and Irving, applying real world physics, science, theory etc to a world where humans can change into monsters the size of houses or castles in an instant seems a little silly for me. It reminds me of a conversation a fan had with Stan Lee about the Hulk (at least I think it was Stan. It might have been Jack Kirby). They asked, "How can the hulk keep the same pants on when he changes form when his shirt obviously explodes off of him?" The response, "You believe that a human can turn into a giant green man twice his normal size and keeping his pants on is what bothers you?"

I know it the "catgirls"...
But don't you think there are at least some indications that we are going from an normal medieval massacre to a high tech thriller. I don't know if we will ever reach the "high tech thriller"
some day but we would probably stop somewhere between those two things.
I mean we know the entire island is a research facility for awakened beings according to miria why not dare at least to begin to speak in more scientific ways and to think about some theories which involve those things?
We know the org has those pills, where did they get them?
The stigmata on the claymores, what is it what is looking so terrible?
I perhaps use the wrong terms here, perhaps i should say "blood" instead of
"gens" but it will stay the same and if find "gens" describes it better.
It is not uncommon that things like gens are mentioned in mangas therefore why keeping it back?

[Vinak]

...The Socratic method of arguing actually shares quite a few similarities with the techniques of brain washing (well, minus the sleep deprivation) which is also fascinating to me....



[backs away slowly] whoa Chiba, your scary :help:

[hides]

[graywolf202]

Hullo.

@ dunames and @chibamonster: What was crash point? Coz, seriously, I don't see where is the point of contention. Seriously.

Or maybe I'm just slow.

[Ryuken]

Reminds me of a method that was used by the Freemasons and the Patriots.:confused::eyebrow::)

[Gangsta Spanksta]

@Gangsta Spanksta
I don't see it like that. IMO there can't be maximum of maximum. What you're saying is that first twin reached global maximum and second only local maximum but they both are defined by the same function and both could reach the top nonetheless, however one had bad luck and some of domain was taken from him. (I know that's gibberish - analogy of analogy and inaccurate at that but I don't know how to express it in english).
Also, the problem is we have half-humans that magically increase 10 times in size or speed instantly. They don't play by the same rules humans do.

I didn't finish the explanation the way I wanted to that day; I was still a bit tired. But let me be a bit more concise this time.

Okay you have two twins, one well fed and taken care off -- Alicia -- and one suffering from malnutrition and neglected -- Beth. Initially both twins have the same potential for how tall they are going to be. At age 11 Alicia being well fed is taller than Beth who suffers from Malnutrition. At this point of time Beth will never be able to reach Alicia's potential of maximum height, which was both their initial potential to reach. So Beth potential has in fact been lowered from what it was initially, proving that potential for humans, at least one meaning of it, is a variable. The question now is: Why would potential for Claymore be constant, if potential for humans is a variable.


Looking at twins like that is applying real world ideas to a fictional closed system. In the world of Claymore, the twin with the worst upbringing might actually become stronger one just as Priscilla hates Youma more than anyone, Alicia doesn't have a personality, Miata and Ophelia were messed up in the brain, and Isley, Luciella and Riful seem to just be smarter than everyone else in a cunning way. I think the twins were taken as infants for a reason.

Yes, a fictional system does not always rely on real world ideas, and often times uses concepts like Ki and Yoki are used to get around Physics, but that doesn't mean a theory can't use such concepts. But that is besides the point: there was another purpose to the twin example, and that was to point out that potential is variable for humans, thus questioning why it should be constant for Claymore. I'm not saying it can't be constant in this fictional story, but pointing out that it can quite logically be variable.

And yes, the twin who gained greater potential of survival from gaining survival instincts, and who also may have gained greater desire, single mindedness to reach her goals, maybe the one who turns into the greater Awakened Being. There is more than one potential for a person to realize after all. Again, its -- a limit of the language -- potential meaning different things, the word is often used as a summation of all potentials a thing has.

[Fenrir_valindri]

I'd like to add that just because it is a fantasy setting doesn't mean that the laws of physics can be completely ignored on a whim.
Most writers have a frame-work in their story-setting that they work around and the world, no matter how high-fantasy it is, will always have some basis in reality because the writer is himself (or herself) a human and thus has a human understanding of reality and fantasy.

For example, I don't expect any Claymore to be able to get up from being decapitated, Teresa certainly didn't survive it, so I doubt anyone else would. Even Deneve, whose primary ability revolves around an immense healing factor, wouldn't be able to survive some of the stuff Wolverine from the Marvel Universe has.

The Marvel Universe is far more physics defying then the Claymore universe could hope to be. :heh:

While Claymore may explain certain things away with Yoki that doesn't mean that they will explain everything in a nonsensical fashion while throwing the words "yoma flesh" and "yoki" around without reason.

[PureYoki]

At this point of time Beth will never be able to reach Alicia's potential of maximum height, which was both their initial potential to reach. So Beth potential has in fact been lowered from what it was initially, proving that potential for humans, at least one meaning of it, is a variable. The question now is: Why would potential for Claymore be constant, if potential for humans is a variable.

Potential is your ultimate limit but not every human or claymore can reach this limit. In your example, Alicia fulfilled her potential but Beth couldn't. And why couldn't Beth fulfil her potential: Because she was hindered.

In claymore world, I can't envision this sort of hindrance. If your body stays intact, you are eventually expected to fulfil your potential. You don't need opportunities or money like in the real world.

If previously unknown factors (hindrance) come into play, you can always reestimate somebody's new potential and in this sense you are right, Beth doesn't have Alicia's potential anymore. But as I said, this rarely occurs in claymore world.

[Sleepy Speculator]

Warning! opinion follows.

To repost some speculation i made a long while ago, i said that the org has delibaretely tampered with the upbringing of some twins/sisters in order to make their desired controllable ab.

Raphealla/Luciella soul link failed not because of genetic dissimilarity in the yoma source or even in the human source material, but in the 'heart' of Raphealla. This was viewed by some and only some of the researchers to be the result of not eliminating differences in their experiment, which is why they placed priority on twins over regular sisters, but this was only the view of some of the researchers not all of them.

Now in philosophy (socratic etc) the heart was the major thing to talk about before mind body dualism and descartes contributions. Basically it's where the soul is supposed to reside and we are talking about an experiment called soul link.

In order to create a symmetry/alignment of 100 per cent Alicia and Beth were raised together and with no contact with others, and also were not allowed/encouraged to have any form of individuality. Basically the researchers sought to eliminate the human heart from the equation whilst using it, minimising it's contribution to the smallest possible thing, so that the two blank slates of Alicia and Beth could be one entity, without divergences. However with no strong emotions it's highly unlikely IMO that they are offensive claymores, and whilst they are listed in the databooks as 'special' i think they may be defensive types, based purely on the only thing they could be said to have from being human and that is 'instinct'.

Please bear in mind that *if* Alicia and Beth are the Zemas or similar twins then they have been with the org before and for the entirety of Teresa's training/career and Clare's and were still not complete, but training all the way upto the war in the north. And whilst i don't know how many years Yuma spent as #40 she is believed to be better than the present #14 after 7 years of intense training. Clare however went from #47 to a claymore capable of the #8-#9 rank in a few months... :twitch: (offensive type)

Basically the offensive types raise in the ranks alot quicker, which is why i think Alicia and Beth are defensive claymores, now compare their soul link success with the failure of Raphealla and Luciella who were offensive types. It's implied rather heavily that Raphella is Offensive, and she's really quite powerful and so one would assume was Luciella since she became an AO. There is no mention of Raphealla or Luciella's training time but i assume it was just normal until the failure occurred, blame being on them being 'normal sisters'. Now this is where i speculate a little further, i don't think Raphealla had a v.good chance of bringing back Luciella, if you look at Beth, the strain on her is alot but she can do it, Raphealla however in contrast completely lost control of the link leaving Luciella an uncontrollable monster that mauled even her. Similarly Galatea was able to pull Clare back as if it was not really much more than a nuisance (defensive type + Clare being experienced in reverting anyway) as opposed to Clare who came to the conclusion that she was unfit to do it because the strain was excrutiating (offensive type + unpracticed awakend partner in Jean). Jean died repeating this process, though that may have just been the gaping stomach wound.

So if possible a defensive and offensive warrior would be the better combination, the offensive for power the defensive for control, this however would require control of a sort that plato would call a civil war of the soul or somesuch. The excesses of each balanced off by the partner in the link. I think that some of the experimenting mib's actually went with this course especially if they thought Alicia was taking too long to complete.

[chibamonster]

@Gangsta Spanksta: Once the girls become claymores they are no longer just humans :D. They don't have to eat more than a couple times a weak, they struggle sleeping on beds and would rather lean against their swords (Galatea even put her sword in a bed), they are not effected by heat or cold like humans are, and they have extra sensory perception. They have a potential that some other characters actually are able to measure.

In this story one of the terms used (in romanji) is senzai noryoku; 潜在 【senzai】 potentiality; dormancy; latency 能力 【nouryoku】ability; faculty. About Priscilla, Teresa says "koitsu no oku ni hisomu senzai noryouku wa bakemono" or translated "lurking (hidden, lying dormant, concealed) inside of her is the potential of a monster." She then continues by saying, "From here on out, she will become tremendously(unbelievably, incredibly, absurdly) strong." (chapter 21 page 4)

Teresa and Miata are referred to as outstanding talents, even if Miata's ability is qualified.

@Fenrir_valindri: I am ignoring the so called laws of physics that the story ignores. Is that selective enough? Genetics, even in our world, is far from absolute law and there are so many theories going around it boggles the mind. There are definitely things that feel real to the story, and Yagi does tie up inconsistencies that apparently bother him as much as they bother some of his fans. He covered that Father Vincent felt very stupid for just putting bandages over Clare's clothes. He covered why the swords never break. He gave us a geography of the island.

Yagi will absolutely tell us how Claymores (and youma) are made. I just think he will maintain the same information he already has in his explanation like he did with the swords not breaking. I do not think he will rely on modern theory, but instead tie together all the information he has already given us and add some new very interesting tidbits.

And hey, while a Claymore may struggle with decapitation, Agatha sure did not :D. Riful can split herself into slices, and in her human form she got a sword through the head and just smiled.

[MisterJB]

Galatea even put her sword in a bed

I never understood why she did that. Thank you

[Newhope]

There's another reason other than training which may make Alicia and Beth stronger than a standard Abyssal and it's the fact that Alicia goes over her limits willingly, if Riful is right going over your limits willingly boosts your overall power more than going over by mistake.

[Cyclone]

@chiba:
You know... conceeding a minor point to someone will not kill you - honest. It wont make your privates shrink. It doesn't even hurt. :D (personal experience)
Honestly... applying to humans and not Claymores...
(and it's not they can't feel hot or cold, they simply regulate their temperatures so they don't)

[GundamZZ]

Yay, Chiba.
Just admit your defeat. Some people are think about war already.

On the second thought, people, take up your claymore and resolve with Chiba in Claymore style. Starting with you, Cyclone.

http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/1460/claymorestyleto7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/claymorestyleto7.jpg/1/w460.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img398/claymorestyleto7.jpg/1/)

[Cyclone]

Yay, Chiba.
Just admit your defeat. Some people are think about war already.

On the second thought, people, take up your claymore and resolve with Chiba in Claymore style. Starting with you, Cyclone.

As fun as it might be, I think I'll conceed. ;)
Besides - we're buddies. Why would we want to fight?

[clarakiss~]

On the second thought, people, take up your claymore and resolve with Chiba in Claymore style.

i'll withdraw right away cuz it's madness facing chibi the claymore guru to resolve something. it's like facing an abyssal that has a power of over nine thousandd~d!! besides, i let my isley-saur do the fightin' for me - pokemon style :p

[chibamonster]

I concede. Whichever point it was. I'm not sure which one, but I guess it does not matter. :cool: At least I am not stuck explaining to Sagra_souske that 100% is 100% again. That was something else...

[Fenrir_valindri]

That was a trip. :heh:

[Ryuken]

Now that was good to hear @chiba.:)

[SagaraSouske]

My premise is that the youki pool of AB is not the same as youki pool of Claymore. Awaking is a form of transformation that changed not only the physical appearance but also the maximum amount of youki. Thus 100% Claymore is not 100% AB. I just happen to disagree with your premise, not that I cannot understand 100% is 100%.

[chibamonster]

I am not getting sucked into this again!

[SagaraSouske]

Neither do I. I just wanted to clarify your statement. That's all.

[Sleepy Speculator]

points to the 'no stairway to heaven sign'

shhhh!!! both of you.

[chibamonster]

Sure. We'll all just sit her quietly until the next manga comes out. That will be best.

[Stream]

Sleepy, I always stick with the easier explanation for what went wrong in the soul link.

Soul link requires one person to suppress youki as the other person puts their fate in the suppressed person's hands. So it stands to reason that a full soul link requires full suppression alongside full awakening. Teresa could sense a minuscule amount of youki coming from Raphaela.

If Raphaela's suppression was incomplete, then a full soul link would fail.

[chibamonster]

@Stream: That is the same conclusion I came to. We know the soul link requires one sister to release all youki, and one sister to suppress her youki to the limits. It is actually harder for the sister suppressing. We know Raphaela failed because her "heart was not strong enough" she says it and the MiB's say it. So if the suppressing sister's job is to suppress, failing the soul link means failing to suppress in other words, she released some youki. Rubel even pokes fun at her for still suppressing her youki because it was futile at that point.

She didn't use her youki again after that, but Teresa met her right before her youki disappeared completely. If the ghosts are any standard then trainee Teresa met her sometime under 7 years after the soul link failed as within 7 years ones youki will completely disappear if it is not used.

I am curious if Luciella attacked Raphaela and took out her eye before or after Raphaela lost the soul link. I am guessing Raph wavered in the link and then Luciella got her which completely killed the link. But that is only my guess. Raphaela blames herself so I think she probably initiated the problem.

[PureYoki]

Similarly Galatea was able to pull Clare back as if it was not really much more than a nuisance (defensive type + Clare being experienced in reverting anyway) as opposed to Clare who came to the conclusion that she was unfit to do it because the strain was excrutiating (offensive type + unpracticed awakend partner in Jean). Jean died repeating this process, though that may have just been the gaping stomach wound.

Galatea was very skillful and experienced in yoki manipulation, I think it was a much more important factor than her being a defensive warrior. Yoki sensing/manipulation seems to be a defensive characteristic, it is probably how Riful deduced Renee was a defensive type in Chapter 82 (http://www.onemanga.com/Claymore/82/06/) but I don't think every defensive type would have that much control in a soul-link.

In Chapter 62 (http://www.onemanga.com/Claymore/62/20/) Galatea says even she can't align her yoki perfectly, Beth could do it because she and Alicia are identical twins and they have the same yoma source. So I think genetic dissimilarity matters.

[Sleepy Speculator]

heh well, it's not like i want nothing to be said here, i just thought i'd say shh!!! with regards to the way the conversation was going...

@stream and chiba

I kinda get the feeling though that the yoki leaking from Raphealla may have been a side effect of the whole blunder and/or because she is offensive. Look at how offensive claymores tend to fight compared to defensive ones, they use yoki like there's no end to the stuff. And the only times i've seen entire teams pumped up on the stuff, has been the Teresa v Priscilla fight, where all of the combatants are thought to be offensive and the Slashers arc where you have Helen, Miria, Clare and Deneve a 3:1 ratio of offensive to defensive and Deneve is renowned for being suicidally aggressive. Ditto for the Clare v Ophelia etc etc, yet if you look at Pieta hardly any of the claymores bothered to use it despite how desperate the situation. (i'm not including technique usage for a reason.) The Rigardo fight Cynthia takes a swing then dissappears from the battle, Deneve is left to bleed on the floor, Miria saves her yoki for her technique use and still runs out of stamina, but you still see Helen and Clare both offensive types with the distorted faces.

So apart from Deneve the only confirmed defensive type to be seen using yoki in this manner has been Galatea so far, and even that was just to buy time against Duff. I don't know what the ratio that is given the amount of revealed and named claymores but it seems to indicate, that offensive claymores have that tendency.

Now in soul link i could be wrong but don't they have to align their yoki, ideally perfectly. So if it works on the same principle as Galatea's alignment/manipulation then Luciella awakening would likely cause a rise in Raphealla's yoki, the same occurs in Alicia and Beth except the handler is a defensive claymore instead of an offensive one, if you look at the two times Clare linked with Jean they both threw out yoki in order to do it, and had steam effects... Galatea doing it to Clare nothing. (now i know this could be argued that Clare was rubbish at it, and Galatea good, or that the effect is from the awakened form reverting, but i just think it's from the yoki used, and Clare isn't rubbish because she can read and mimic yoki usage just fine)

Basically the mib got what they wanted out of Luciella but viewed Raphealla as the failure in a doomed to fail experiment. What i'm saying is that with Luciella as the Ab Raphealla's heart would never have been strong enough due to the nature of their yoki,and the fact they are aligned. (i'm imagining a tug of war where one of the contestants that usually balances it fine is suddenly replaced with a pickuptruck, pulling the other contestant into the mud they are trying to avoid). End result Raphealla loses everything, and takes the fall.

Alicia and Beth not being offensive warriors gain the advantage of not having that issue at all, their problem is quite the opposite they have to muster enough pull to have a tug of war in the first place, which is why it's taken so many years to train them.

i feel sleepy now so i'll finish this off some other time...

[Cyclone]

heh well, it's not like i want nothing to be said here, i just thought i'd say shh!!! with regards to the way the conversation was going...

@stream and chiba

I kinda get the feeling though that the yoki leaking from Raphealla may have been a side effect of the whole blunder and/or because she is offensive. Look at how offensive claymores tend to fight compared to defensive ones, they use yoki like there's no end to the stuff. And the only times i've seen entire teams pumped up on the stuff, has been the Teresa v Priscilla fight, where all of the combatants are thought to be offensive and the Slashers arc where you have Helen, Miria, Clare and Deneve a 3:1 ratio of offensive to defensive and Deneve is renowned for being suicidally aggressive. Ditto for the Clare v Ophelia etc etc, yet if you look at Pieta hardly any of the claymores bothered to use it despite how desperate the situation. (i'm not including technique usage for a reason.) The Rigardo fight Cynthia takes a swing then dissappears from the battle, Deneve is left to bleed on the floor, Miria saves her yoki for her technique use and still runs out of stamina, but you still see Helen and Clare both offensive types with the distorted faces.

So apart from Deneve the only confirmed defensive type to be seen using yoki in this manner has been Galatea so far, and even that was just to buy time against Duff. I don't know what the ratio that is given the amount of revealed and named claymores but it seems to indicate, that offensive claymores have that tendency.

Now in soul link i could be wrong but don't they have to align their yoki, ideally perfectly. So if it works on the same principle as Galatea's alignment/manipulation then Luciella awakening would likely cause a rise in Raphealla's yoki, the same occurs in Alicia and Beth except the handler is a defensive claymore instead of an offensive one, if you look at the two times Clare linked with Jean they both threw out yoki in order to do it, and had steam effects... Galatea doing it to Clare nothing. (now i know this could be argued that Clare was rubbish at it, and Galatea good, or that the effect is from the awakened form reverting, but i just think it's from the yoki used, and Clare isn't rubbish because she can read and mimic yoki usage just fine)

Basically the mib got what they wanted out of Luciella but viewed Raphealla as the failure in a doomed to fail experiment. What i'm saying is that with Luciella as the Ab Raphealla's heart would never have been strong enough due to the nature of their yoki,and the fact they are aligned. (i'm imagining a tug of war where one of the contestants that usually balances it fine is suddenly replaced with a pickuptruck, pulling the other contestant into the mud they are trying to avoid). End result Raphealla loses everything, and takes the fall.

Alicia and Beth not being offensive warriors gain the advantage of not having that issue at all, their problem is quite the opposite they have to muster enough pull to have a tug of war in the first place, which is why it's taken so many years to train them.

i feel sleepy now so i'll finish this off some other time...

I know you like to deny the databooks, but they do say Alica and Beth are offensive types (and so was Teresa) - so I'll leave it at that.

About Pieta and defensive types - there were only 4 defensive types in Pieta (yes - according to the databooks again) - Deneve, Yuma, Cynthia and Veronica (not a bad survival rate, actually). You will remember that Cynthia and Veronica did use their healing against the insect AB.

Also, steam effects seem to happen every time there is a partial awakening (Clare, Jean and Miria too IIRC).

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Was it Sleepy Spectator that once speculated that Teresa was a defensive type, despite data book? I tend to agree on that point, based purely on the Slasher arc where Clare uses Teresa's power, but according to Maria, her going into offensive mode makes those powers useless. Teresa's power seems purely defensive, predict, dodge, predict, dodge, until you find an opening and then strike. Then again, maybe defensive and offensive types are badly named and only have to do with regeneration or extra power to moves an offensive get, and not with special abilities. It is possible for a Claymore to not be able to regenerate, get an extra power boost of an 'offensive' type, but have a special ability that really is defensive. :) I guess I changed my own mind in my own post to wait and see.

[Sleepy Speculator]

@cyclone

err i could be remembering wrong but i thought in the power and levels thread that Alicia and Beth were classified in the databooks as 'special' under their type... that word that has been applied to Clare and Clarice again lol, which would mean they *could* be a conventional offensive or defensive type.

my problem with the databooks has always been, Teresa's and Undine's classification, i would say that defensive warriors aren't really powerful, except Galatea proves they can be, the rest is just based on the fact that for Teresa she's a sensing type, and her personality are at odds with the offensive category. For Undine it's that she's actually mimicing an offensive claymore in body and personality.

A way i can think of explaining the difference in offensive and defensive would be the difference roughly between exothermic and endothermic reactions. One directs the energy internally, the other externally. Clare when she needed to do a sword toss distorted her arm using yoki, similarly Yuma bulks up for a throw using her yoki only without the facial distortion and obvious other associated problems.

Contrast Sophia and Rachel both strong warriors with Undine who is actually weak, but pretending to be strong by modulating her muscle mass, again without noticeable veins popping out.

[PureYoki]

There is one thing I want to know about defensive and offensive types: How can the org or even the claymore herself know her type unless she cuts off a finger to check if it regenerates?

I think the explanation based on personality is obscure. Ophelia hinted (http://www.onemanga.com/Claymore/35/28/) that offensive warriors aren't afraid of even the strongest opponents. We know offensive warriors who pee in their pants against strong opponents and we know defensive warriors who have full confidence against stronger opponents.

It's easy to categorize cowards or overconfident ones but what about careful, sensible, rational ones? Doesn't my reaction against an opponent depend on my opponent's power? I can be very brave against an ant but very fearful against an elephant, what does this make me?

I would say your fighting techniques indicate your type, Renee is a sensor type and Riful deduced that she was defensive but how come Teresa was offensive, her technique was similar to Galatea's!

This whole offense-defense issue is rather confusing, IMO the data in hand is almost random, so constructing a valid theory is next to impossible.

[irvinethearcher]

No, teresa wasn't a defensive type. She only liked to play around with her preemptive aura protection. As we have seen in the fights against priscilla and rosemary she easily can do the job without it.
As for switching to attack mode, clare and theresa both found a way to do that. Only because a technique has a defensive nature doesn't mean that the claymore is a defensive type. I think it is wrong to interprete something into those types. The type is probably the manifestation of the subconscious feelings a claymore has when she becomes a hybrid but those feelings can change.
And i don't think that def. types are cowards. IMO they only don't tend to fight in self destructive ways. I don't think that for example defensive types are better at yoki manipulation. Why? Only because galatea was defensive type?

[Gangsta Spanksta]

I'm with irvinethearcher on this one, after having thought about it yesterday.

I think: "Offensive Type" and "Defensive Type" are bad classifications. They really only say if you are a regenerator or a power-boosted Claymore. Teresa's power is totally a defensive ability, but that ability doesn't not a "Defensive Type" make. What would make Teresa a "Defensive Type" or an "Offensive Type" would be if she is able to regenerate or if she gets a boost in power. We know neither. I think certain types of personalities do make it more likely that you fall under one of those two categories, but the category itself does not dictate personalities or special abilities, except the boost an 'offensive' gets or the regenerative ability a 'defensive' gets. Logically, it would seem that an Offensive type would actually have to worry more about their defense than the defensive type, since they lack the natural ability.

[Cyclone]

@cyclone

err i could be remembering wrong but i thought in the power and levels thread that Alicia and Beth were classified in the databooks as 'special' under their type... that word that has been applied to Clare and Clarice again lol, which would mean they *could* be a conventional offensive or defensive type.

my problem with the databooks has always been, Teresa's and Undine's classification, i would say that defensive warriors aren't really powerful, except Galatea proves they can be, the rest is just based on the fact that for Teresa she's a sensing type, and her personality are at odds with the offensive category. For Undine it's that she's actually mimicing an offensive claymore in body and personality.

A way i can think of explaining the difference in offensive and defensive would be the difference roughly between exothermic and endothermic reactions. One directs the energy internally, the other externally. Clare when she needed to do a sword toss distorted her arm using yoki, similarly Yuma bulks up for a throw using her yoki only without the facial distortion and obvious other associated problems.

Contrast Sophia and Rachel both strong warriors with Undine who is actually weak, but pretending to be strong by modulating her muscle mass, again without noticeable veins popping out.

You're right - I stand corrected. I could have sworn it said offensive type, but it does indeed say special type for Alica and Beth. I guess I didn't look closely enough - the kanji for defensive type is distinctive, and I guess I just skimmed looking for that and assumed the rest were offensive types. My bad.

[Sleepy Speculator]

Well it may not be good means of classification and problematic, in that it's hard to tell who is who, but it's something that's constantly referred to as knowledge amongst claymores, so it's obviously there.

There is one thing I want to know about defensive and offensive types: How can the org or even the claymore herself know her type unless she cuts off a finger to check if it regenerates?

I think the explanation based on personality is obscure. Ophelia hinted that offensive warriors aren't afraid of even the strongest opponents. We know offensive warriors who pee in their pants against strong opponents and we know defensive warriors who have full confidence against stronger opponents.

It's easy to categorize cowards or overconfident ones but what about careful, sensible, rational ones? Doesn't my reaction against an opponent depend on my opponent's power? I can be very brave against an ant but very fearful against an elephant, what does this make me?

I would say your fighting techniques indicate your type, Renee is a sensor type and Riful deduced that she was defensive but how come Teresa was offensive, her technique was similar to Galatea's!

This whole offense-defense issue is rather confusing, IMO the data in hand is almost random, so constructing a valid theory is next to impossible.

Yeah verily there are difficulties and if the databooks are from the org's perspective then it seems to me they can even be mistaken about things, however Irene seems the very model of a sensible and rational claymore and yet... http://www.onemanga.com/Claymore/24/12/

It's not even so much about just confidence, but more to do with the fact that those who are noticably extreme in personality are rather obvious choices for one category or the other.

And if your'e talking about a warrior peeing themselves being this... http://www.onemanga.com/Claymore/70/14/
it was never stated in the manga that Audrey was an offensive warrior, and Riful said that she was a bipolar opposite of her partner #5 Rachel who is obviously offensive, coupled with a sword technique based on deflection and you'd be led to believe she's a defensive warrior.

So can i please see where it is that an offensive warrior is peeing in their pants?

As for Teresa, i don't know really what her type was, but... without the databooks statement, it was never revealed in the manga what type she or Priscilla was, the only thing known about her, her technique as it was, was pre-emptive aura perception and a general lack of aggression to the extent she earned the moniker Teresa of the faint smile.

Now the pre - emptive aura perception is based on her ability to read yoki which indicates she's a v.good yoki sensor which in the story (not databooks) has so far followed this...

Teresa ... unrevealed
Clare ... offensive (rule breaker that she is, 'special soldier' )
Galatea ... eye for the org #3, defensive
Tabitha and Cynthia ... #14, and #31? ghosts and both defensive types
Renee... eye for the org #6 gonna have to regenerate that arm.. defensive

I'm thinking that all the sensor types are defensive warriors. Miata #4 has 'sixth sense' but is not a yoki sensor type by all accounts. Clare gets away with it because it's an inherited ability.

No, teresa wasn't a defensive type. She only liked to play around with her preemptive aura protection. As we have seen in the fights against priscilla and rosemary she easily can do the job without it.
As for switching to attack mode, clare and theresa both found a way to do that. Only because a technique has a defensive nature doesn't mean that the claymore is a defensive type. I think it is wrong to interprete something into those types. The type is probably the manifestation of the subconscious feelings a claymore has when she becomes a hybrid but those feelings can change.
And i don't think that def. types are cowards. IMO they only don't tend to fight in self destructive ways. I don't think that for example defensive types are better at yoki manipulation. Why? Only because galatea was defensive type?


I don't see where in the Rosemary fight she didn't use her pre emptive aura perception because it may as well be listed as an always active passive ability that is only rendered ineffective by warriors with completely suppressed yoki, such as the present ghosts, Raphealla during Clare's gen and Priscilla. I think Rubul probably cracked up when he had Raphealla threaten Clare and Jean, for sure Jean was shocked but Raphealla pretty much renders Clare's trump card useless, especially given that there were only 4 warriors available to the org better than Ophelia, who Clare was responsible for killing. #3 Galatea, who treasonously abandoned the job, and #1 and #2 who are not for general use leaving only the previous #1 the #5 of Clare's time.

I refuse to be sucked into the Teresa vs Priscilla endless debate, but feel free to read the manga and interpret what Teresa says to Priscilla anyway you like, and ditto for the actual fighting. With regards to Clare however her offense before she gained Irene's fabled 'arm of god', was actually her standard yoki output attack. Who knows what Clare's actual technique/ablity as an offensive warrior alone would be as so many things have happened to her, though she pretty much now uses something similar to the present #9 Nina's shadow hunter, except it's a whole lot more attacks at about as fast as they can be, due to being able to use quicksword or windutter, and it was something she devised on her own in the witch's maw.

@Cyclone

Cheers happens to us all ;)

[Ryuken]

If I'm not mistaken Teresa said that Prisy would surpass her for sure with time, so I'm guessing that now is the time she was talking about.:eyebrow::)

[Newhope]

If I'm not mistaken Teresa said that Prisy would surpass her for sure with time, so I'm guessing that now is the time she was talking about.:eyebrow::)

I wouldn't bring that up again you'll have the Teresa fanboi's after your head.

[chibamonster]

Lol at Teresa's ability being only defensive. Just because she used her ability defensively in the "Marked For Death" Arc does not mean it is only a defensive ability. You are looking at humanized Clare-loving "no longer fit for battle" Teresa in that arc. She did not want to kill the Claymores coming after her. Could she have killed them? In the blink of an eye. She was not fighting the drawn out battle because she had no other choice. She was fighting to show them that they could not beat her, and that they should give up the chase, and to leave her alone because the same thing would happen every time. Even fighting monster Priscilla, she did not want to kill her. Yes Teresa does swing to take Prissy's head and it is blocked by Irene, but Teresa can sense Irene...

Now, notice how Teresa used her ability against the youma when we first met her. Sure, they are just youma. How about how Teresa deals with the bandits? What is her first response when she sees something coming after her and Clare that she cannot sense? Lop its arm off. Notice also how she uses it against Rosemary. But chiba! She doesn't kill Rosemary flat out! That's right, she has a question for Rosemary; she wants to know if Rosemary awakened before or after sending her the black card. The sad thing is Teresa does not need her youki sensing ability to destroy her enemies. She has another few techniques in her repetoir; incredible sword fighting, the ability to kick, and then her Unlimited 9 tails super sayan youki bankai. Notice that Irene mentions that had Teresa been the same Teresa she knew before, she would have cut down Priscilla in a heartbeat.

Now Clare inherited Teresa's power. The first time we see her use it she is fighting the 6 armed AB. She uses it initially to dodge his 30 finger attack. But then what does she do? She lops off 5 of his arms and his tongue. Where does she fail? Cutting through his carapace because she physically doesn't have the strength to get through it. Had she the strength she would have ended him right there. Youki sensing apparently doesn't aid your physical strength (at least initially...). This being the first time Clare has used it in the story she struggles switching from offensive to defense. She overcomes this.

Clare vastly improves her youki sensing through the story. She does not have to switch from youki sensing to be super offensive later in the story. Clare learns how to use her youki sensing and Quicksword at the same time. Quicksword requires a full youki release in one arm, suppression in the rest of the body, and the internal determination of a monster. Clare not only senses, but uses her sensing to target her awakened limb and avoid things she doesn't want to slice and dice, like Jean. Clare is able to youki sense while her jaw is falling off from youki use. Rigardo praises her ability to see his nails. Clare can absolutely sense while releasing youki now, though she is not releasing any youki like Helen and Deneve are.

Teresa and Clare's youki sensing is absolutely used as a devastating offensive ability. It also has defensive advantages, just like Miria's phantoms. We see this more with Clare. We see very little of Teresa's life before Clare.

@Ryuken: That is dangerous to say! Teresa said Priscilla would become incredibly strong and that while she absolutely could defeat her now, next time she was not sure. Irene says Priscilla will surpass Teresa, and then later says, "have I underestimated Teresa yet again?"

[clarakiss~]

@ chibi ---

* irene says priscilla will surpass teresa - yes, she would have if priscilla had remained claymore a lot longer and had matured.

* then later says, "have i underestimated teresa yet again?" - she probably meant it by going against her as they were now, not strong enough and priscilla still new at being a claymore.

[chibamonster]

@Clarakiss~: Luv ya babe :D. No one knew Teresa's real power but Teresa. The organization didn't know. And Irene didn't know. Irene is surprised by Teresa not once on this matter, but twice. Chapter 21 page 29, "Who would of thought... I was sure the 4 of us could have taken her. I misjudged her again." Priscilla goes nuts, attacks Teresa and then Teresa drops the nuclear youki eye bomb.

Chapter 23 page 11 and 12. There are some translation issues here. Irene does not say, "Teresa repelled Priscilla's insane strength with just enough youki release to change her eyes." She says, "I can't believe it! Teresa is exceeding Priscilla's insane power with only enough youki release to change her eyes color!" The word used is Uwamawaru. (上回る(P);【うわまわる】 to exceed).

And on the next page, she does not say "That is the true nature of Teresa's strength." She says, "Is this really Teresa's true strength when she has released her youki?"

So Irene is first wrong that the 4 of them could have taken her. And then she is once again blown away by Teresa's strength when her eyes turn gold. That is 2 levels beyond what she initially thought of Teresa and Teresa was trying to save Priscilla, not kill her. 70%+ Priscilla was no danger to Teresa. She landed a single cut before Teresa went Super Sayajin. What killed Teresa is exactly what Irene said it was, "She was no longer fit for battle."

Priscilla is absolutely the second strongest character in the whole series at this point though :D. I don't think Teresa deluded herselfinto thinking she was immortal. She had instead found a reason to live, which made her worried about more than herself. A warrior like Priscilla who could have landed a sneak attack on her once and had the potential to be 2x abyssal is certainly an unknown.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

:p I think that the whole Teresa vs. Priscilla thing was done on purpose; it makes the story greater that people can draw their own conclusions. I see it as myself as Irene misjudging Teresa and the Org misjudging Teresa. Unless you witness Teresa release 10% of her power, you don't know how powerful she really was. This is exactly why, in the Orgs estimation, it goes like: Miata > Alicia & Beth > Priscilla > Teresa. Miata has been estimated to be the potential #1 like Prisiclla was, that with Beth around who the Org thinks is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Note, the reason why Alicia might be considered greater than Priscilla and Teresa is that she can awaken; it could be that without this ability that she is just an normal #1 like Isley and Riful were. In fact, her awaken form seems around their strength. The truly frightening thing is that Miata has the potential to be as strong as an abyssal without awakening. That doesn't mean she is at that level now, though. Anyway, the org sucks at estimation, IMHO.

[Negativedark]

The ability to evade attacks would benifit an offensive type more In my opinion. After all they won't be able to regenerate as well.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

;) That's what I'm kinda hinting at, offensive types may need to worry more about defense, and a defensive ability would be handy.

[Awakened]

The ability to evade attacks would benifit an offensive type more In my opinion. After all they won't be able to regenerate as well.

Totally agree. Offensive Claymore's cannot afford to get hit. Notice in Pieta the defensive Claymores were sent in to take the damage.

A radar by itself is not a defense, its only give you time to react. You can take defensive measures and run and hid, or you can retaliate.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Totally agree. Offensive Claymore's cannot afford to get hit. Notice in Pieta the defensive Claymores were sent in to take the damage.

A radar by itself is not a defense, its only give you time to react. You can take defensive measures and run and hid, or you can retaliate.

A radar still is a defensive measure, because you are stopping attacks from happening by retaliating, where before they would have hit you. The Radar is what saved Great Briton in WWII, stopping massive German daytime bombing, by being able to retaliate as you describe. If you don't have the Radar you take the hit.

[GundamZZ]

When there's doubt, check with "Broken Chapter of Silver". It is written as the employee handbook for the organization. The approximate data are shown below.

Y-axis: yoki control Requirement
X-axis: yoki release level

yoki synchronization: 15%-45% (Galatea)
yoki suppression: 0-5% (Raphaelia)
yoki reading: 0-40% (Teresa)
wind cutting sword: 5%-35% (Flora)
high speed sword: 80%-100% (Irene)*
high speed sword + yoki reading: 10%-100% (Clare)*
shantom: 60%-75% (Miria)
super recovery: 55%-80% (Deneb)
limbs extension: 55%-80% (Helen)
whirl sword: 55%-75% (Jean)
ripple sword: 45%-65% (Orphelia)

*yoki release is limited to hands

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/2453/yokireleasevsyokisuppreik1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/yokireleasevsyokisuppreik1.jpg/1/w334.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img255/yokireleasevsyokisuppreik1.jpg/1/)

[Vinak]

well radar allowed Britain to focus its defense to where the threat was the greatest by being able to know the direction, speed, and roughly what altitude the German Luftwaffe was flying in. this allowed Britain to scramble planes exactly where they were needed. It effectively made the British Air Force appear much larger than it actually was. (was on the verge of collapse towards the end of German daytime bombing raids.)

I guess in the Claymore world, this could allow you to mobilize your troops to hunt down Yoma and AB's. or spy on enemy movements. But I am not sure how helpful this would be to an individual. sure you could avoid enemies, but I doubt it would be very helpful in a close quarters fight

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Well Defensive fighting is about making a move to avoid damage, and then attacking when the opportunity is right. Teresa defense is so finely tuned that it can look like she attacks first. yoma jumps from behind her ready to slash her. Teresa senses it, predicts his move and slices him in half before he even has a chance to attack. the act of predicting the enemy's move is the defense, and she knows exactly when the opportunity is right to attack. Also, sometimes the best defensive fighters have some of the best offensive capabilities; they just wait for their opponent to make a mistake, usually when the opponent gets frustrated, before striking their devastating blows. With a defensive fighter like Ranma Saotome from Ranma 1/2 for example, it would be, dodge, dodge, dodge -- opponent gets frustrated and makes a mistake -- hundreds of hits rain in on the opponent. If you think about it, Teresa fought pretty much the same way against Priscilla, and once Prisiclla lost her cool that's when Teresa did her damage.

[Ryuken]

I wouldn't bring that up again you'll have the Teresa fanboi's after your head.

@Ryuken:[/B] That is dangerous to say! Teresa said Priscilla would become incredibly strong and that while she absolutely could defeat her now, next time she was not sure. Irene says Priscilla will surpass Teresa, and then later says, "have I underestimated Teresa yet again?"

Yea! I guess both of you guys are right and I will leave it at that, because I also was known for starting forest fires here and there.:):D

[PureYoki]

The ability to evade attacks would benifit an offensive type more In my opinion. After all they won't be able to regenerate as well.

Evasion, by definition, is a defensive action. Defensive warriors must have defensive techniques to counter the strong attacks of offensive warriors, even defensive warriors cannot afford to take direct hits, your opponent can finish you before you regenerate. And I wonder, if even evasion would benefit an offensive type more, what techniques suit a defensive type?

[Fenrir_valindri]

Evasion may be a defensive trait innately, but that doesn't mean it is exclusive to defensive minded people.

I really don't think type (defensive/offensive) has certain "techniques" associated with them. Someone's talent wouldn't necessarily coincide with their personality.

Galatea for example is a Defensive type, she is also a Yoki-sensor/manipulator, but despite that very defensive orientated skill set she still posses a highly offensive technique in the form of her Yoki-strength bursts.
Her "current" personality also puts other people's lives before her own, when defensive types are supposed to think of their own survival over attacking the enemy.

I believe it was pointed out in a previous post, but just because someone had thoughts of self-preservation or aggression upon being hybridized doesn't mean that their demeanor is permanently frozen that way, even if their Claymore type is.

Offensive types can be fearful, defensive types can be suicidal, etc.

Oh, and before I forget, being offensive doesn't necessarily mean you have an offensive technique, but most single digits probably have some technique (or insane basic strength)

and who says that the two types have to be "balanced" so to speak; defensive types could innately be weaker then offensive types (thus the reason most single digits are offensive) so offensive types (get most of) the cool techniques (which helps them defeat their enemies) and defensive types (for the most part) merely get regeneration (which helps them survive better.)

Just to compile (from the data books and what we know from the manga)

I put (assumed) to mark we don't have confirmation from the databooks or the manga, but we can guess, and I put (demoted) for Claymores whose rank was lowered when a stronger warrior appeared.

For the defensive types we know about:

Tabitha (#31)
Cynthia (#14)
Galatea (#3)
Yuma (#40)
Deneve (#15)
Audrey (assumed) (#3)
Clarice (assumed) (#47)
Rene (assumed) (#6)
Veronica (#13)
Agatha (assumed) (#2)

# of single digits = 4
----------------

For offensive types:

Undine (#11)
Miria (#6)
Helen (#22)
Jean (#9)
Flora (#8)
Irene (#2, demoted)
Sophia (#3, demoted)
Noel (#4, demoted)
Teresa (#1)
Clare (#47)
Miata (assumed) (#4)
Rachel (assumed) (#5)
Ophelia (#4)
Priscilla (#2)
Dauf (#3)
Rigaldo (#2)
Isley (#1)
Riful (#1)
Lucalea (#1)
Raphaela (#2, demoted)
Nina (assumed) (#9)
Dietrich (assumed) (#8)

# of single digits = 19

-------

Not only are there more offensive types, but a lot of them are single digits as well.

If I had to guess, most defensive types end up in the lower digits and only the rare-talented ones ended up as higher ranks (looking at you Galatea :heh: )

Alicia/Beth are listed as a special soldier type, probably due to their ability to awaken and their lack of personality. (No offensive/defensive inclination)

Put Agatha under defensive due to her unique body and regenerative capabilities (which seemed to center almost entirely on defending her true self)

I'd type more, but need to get ready for class, I'll try picking this up later. :heh:

[Sleepy Speculator]

Evasion may be a defensive trait innately, but that doesn't mean it is exclusive to defensive minded people.

I really don't think type (defensive/offensive) has certain "techniques" associated with them. Someone's talent wouldn't necessarily coincide with their personality.

Galatea for example is a Defensive type, she is also a Yoki-sensor/manipulator, but despite that very defensive orientated skill set she still posses a highly offensive technique in the form of her Yoki-strength bursts.
Her "current" personality also puts other people's lives before her own, when defensive types are supposed to think of their own survival over attacking the enemy.

I believe it was pointed out in a previous post, but just because someone had thoughts of self-preservation or aggression upon being hybridized doesn't mean that their demeanor is permanently frozen that way, even if their Claymore type is.

Offensive types can be fearful, defensive types can be suicidal, etc.

Oh, and before I forget, being offensive doesn't necessarily mean you have an offensive technique, but most single digits probably have some technique (or insane basic strength)

and who says that the two types have to be "balanced" so to speak; defensive types could innately be weaker then offensive types (thus the reason most single digits are offensive) so offensive types (get most of) the cool techniques (which helps them defeat their enemies) and defensive types (for the most part) merely get regeneration (which helps them survive better.)

Just to compile (from the data books and what we know from the manga)

I put (assumed) to mark we don't have confirmation from the databooks or the manga, but we can guess, and I put (demoted) for Claymores whose rank was lowered when a stronger warrior appeared.

For the defensive types we know about:

Tabitha (#31)
Cynthia (#14)
Galatea (#3)
Yuma (#40)
Deneve (#15)
Audrey (assumed) (#3)
Clarice (assumed) (#47)
Rene (assumed) (#6)
Veronica (#13)
Agatha (assumed) (#2)

# of single digits = 4
----------------

For offensive types:

Undine (#11)
Miria (#6)
Helen (#22)
Jean (#9)
Flora (#8)
Irene (#2, demoted)
Sophia (#3, demoted)
Noel (#4, demoted)
Teresa (#1)
Clare (#47)
Miata (assumed) (#4)
Rachel (assumed) (#5)
Ophelia (#4)
Priscilla (#2)
Dauf (#3)
Rigaldo (#2)
Isley (#1)
Riful (#1)
Lucalea (#1)
Raphaela (#2, demoted)
Nina (assumed) (#9)
Dietrich (assumed) (#8)

# of single digits = 19

-------

Not only are there more offensive types, but a lot of them are single digits as well.

If I had to guess, most defensive types end up in the lower digits and only the rare-talented ones ended up as higher ranks (looking at you Galatea :heh: )

Alicia/Beth are listed as a special soldier type, probably due to their ability to awaken and their lack of personality. (No offensive/defensive inclination)

Put Agatha under defensive due to her unique body and regenerative capabilities (which seemed to center almost entirely on defending her true self)

I'd type more, but need to get ready for class, I'll try picking this up later. :heh:

This is my main issue with the canonicity of the databooks, i won't deny that many of the single digits are offensive types but, i think you should just explain it as the manga has shown it... which would be...

Tabitha (#31)
Cynthia (#14)
Galatea (#3)
Yuma (#40)
Deneve (#15)
Audrey (assumed) (#3)
Clarice (assumed) (#47)
Rene (#6) (talks about regenerating her arm later...)
Veronica (#13)
Agatha (assumed) (#2)

# of single digits = 4
----------------

For offensive types:

Undine (#11) (was never revealed)
Miria (#6)
Helen (#22)
Jean (#9)
Flora (#8)
Irene (#2, demoted)
Sophia (#3, demoted)(was never revealed)
Noel (#4, demoted) (was never revealed)
Teresa (#1) (was never revealed)
Elda (#5 demoted unknown)and(all demoted because of one person, be careful about making that look like a commonplace occurence) mentioned but not seen.
Clare (#47)
Miata (assumed) (#4)
Rachel (assumed) (#5)
Ophelia (#4)
Priscilla (#2) (again assumed)
Dauf (#3) (technically not a claymore as it was a guy)
Rigaldo (#2) (")
Isley (#1)(")
Riful (#1) (never revealed)
Lucalea (#1) (assumed based on her sister)
Raphaela (#2, demoted as punishment for loss of half the org)
Nina (assumed) (#9) (though a yoki based attack 'shadow hunter' may indicate an ability in sensing?)
Dietrich (assumed) (#8)

There now if you actually look at the strongest assumptions only you'll see the list of confirmed types is actualy quite small.

Although Galatea uses her manipulation to forceably deflect attacks the end result is v.similar to Clare's evasion.

[Fenrir_valindri]

The problem with what you are saying is you automatically cut out the data books, despite the fact they should be quite reliable for the Claymore "types" if not their exact strength. We have already confirmed Shounen Jump themselves have listed this material, and the Organization's point of view will be quite accurate over as something as basic as a warrior's type.

Many offensive warriors that you switched to assumed yourself are clearly listed as offensive types.

Good point about the male warriors though, I'll cut them out.


Tabitha (#31)
Cynthia (#14)
Galatea (#3)
Yuma (#40)
Deneve (#15)
Audrey (assumed) (#3)
Clarice (assumed) (#47)
Rene (#6)
Veronica (#13)
Agatha (assumed) (#2)

# of single digits = 4
----------------

For offensive types:

Undine (#11)
Miria (#6)
Helen (#22)
Jean (#9)
Flora (#8)
Irene (#2, demoted)
Sophia (#3, demoted)
Noel (#4, demoted)
Teresa (#1)
Clare (#47)
Miata (assumed) (#4)
Rachel (assumed) (#5)
Ophelia (#4)
Priscilla (#2)
Riful (#1)
Lucalea (#1)
Raphaela (#2, demoted)
Nina (assumed) (#9)
Dietrich (assumed) (#8)

# of single digits = 16

The data books also list all 3 of the Abyssal Ones as former offensive types.

[PureYoki]

@ Fenrir_valindri:

I agree with you, I just pointed out that some techniques might suit a type much better than the other, for example Jean's Drill Sword technique is certainly an offensive technique and the user of this technique is expected to be an offensive type. Similarly most yoki sensor types are defensive but Teresa is the most notable exception to this rule, so this is why I said:

This whole offense-defense issue is rather confusing, IMO the data in hand is almost random, so constructing a valid theory is next to impossible.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Oh, and before I forget, being offensive doesn't necessarily mean you have an offensive technique, but most single digits probably have some technique (or insane basic strength)


BTW, a character who has a Offensive style of fighting, but who would be labeled as Defensive by the Claymore Type Casting would be Wolverine from X-Men. His body is a Regenerator like the Defensive types have -- much more advanced there -- yet he strikes first and is willing to recklessly take hits because of his body's natural defense.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

@ Fenrir_valindri:

I agree with you, I just pointed out that some techniques might suit a type much better than the other, for example Jean's Drill Sword technique is certainly an offensive technique and the user of this technique is expected to be an offensive type. Similarly most yoki sensor types are defensive but Teresa is the most notable exception to this rule, so this is why I said:

Yeah, I think Teresa's technique is Defensive in nature, but when one talks if a Claymore is defensive they're really talking about whether they regenerate or if they get a power boost. So Teresa could have a Defensive Fighting style and have a defensive ability, and be an Offensive Type -- no regeneration, extra power to her strikes.

[Awakened]

A radar still is a defensive measure, because you are stopping attacks from happening by retaliating, where before they would have hit you. The Radar is what saved Great Briton in WWII, stopping massive German daytime bombing, by being able to retaliate as you describe. If you don't have the Radar you take the hit.

Yoki sensing is not a defensive technique. A radar is not an offensive or defensive weapon. When you are in a fight you have to learn to evade your opponent attacks. Being good at evading attacks does not make you a defensive Claymore. According to the manga been able to regenerate make you a defensive Claymore.

Evading attacks is more important to a Offensive Claymore than it is for a defensive Claymore. Once a Offensive Claymore gets a limb cut of its game over for them.

Are you all trying to say that if a Claymore use there sword to block an attack, that makes them defensive?

A Claymore ability is not a good indication for what type of Claymore they are. All abilities can be used for defense or offense. Irean use the quick-sword to kill the yomas, and then used it to prevent any blood from falling on her. Priscilla used her regenerating ability to take out half of isley body.

Edit:
If you are able to hear you enemy sneaking up behind you, does that mean you are a defensive Claymore?

If you are able to see your enemy setting up an ambush, does that make you a defensive Claymore?

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Yoki sensing is not a defensive technique. A radar is not an offensive or defensive weapon. When you are in a fight you have to learn to evade your opponent attacks. Being good at evading attacks does not make you a defensive Claymore. According to the manga been able to regenerate make you a defensive Claymore.

Evading attacks is more important to a Offensive Claymore than it is for a defensive Claymore. Once a Offensive Claymore gets a limb cut of its game over for them.

Are you all trying to say that if a Claymore use there sword to block an attack, that makes them defensive?

A Claymore ability is not a good indication for what type of Claymore they are. All abilities can be used for defense or offense. Irean use the quick-sword to kill the yomas, and then used it to prevent any blood from falling on her. Priscilla used her regenerating ability to take out half of isley body.

Edit:
If you are able to hear you enemy sneaking up behind you, does that mean you are a defensive Claymore?

If you are able to see your enemy setting up an ambush, does that make you a defensive Claymore?

Awhile back, I already stated that I think the "Defensive" and "Offensive" Types in Claymore were badly named. To me they are Regenerators and Power Boosted Claymores. The point was that an Offensive Claymore could have a Defensive ability and a Defensive fighting style. As for fighting style, who says that an offensive fighting style has no defense, or that a defensive fighting style has no offense? A Radar in at least the way Teresa uses it, is a defensive ability, in that she avoids taking a hit, and then striking at the opportune time. Your defense can also consist of using an offensive weapon to take out what was about to damage you. What makes it defensive is: Data --> Damage Avoidances Calculation --> Counter Measure. The offensive style could be: (First) Strike --> Observation --> Reaction, where reaction can be another strike or defense. One style you focus in on striking, the other style you focus in on not getting damaged, both styles have offense and defense. Clare has both offensive and defensive abilities. What she inherited from Irene is Offensive with the flash sword, Teresa's ability to predict the yoma's next move is Defensive. In fact, if you looks at Clare's two most impressive moments, IMO, one she uses a Defensive fighting style against the Six Armed AB, having his attack mis her vital organs, then dodging his tenticals, before attacking. The other time was the partial awakening, where she went Berserker and was fighting mostly offensively, occasionally using her defensive abilities inherited from Teresa to dodge some of Rigaldo's more sneaky moves.

[MisterJB]

I wonder if a offensive claymore after Awakening, can regrow lost members

[Gangsta Spanksta]

*Bad Thoughts* *Bad Thoughts* :twitch:

[Ryuken]

They should be able to I think.:)

[Awakened]

Awhile back, I already stated that I think the "Defensive" and "Offensive" Types in Claymore were badly named. To me they are Regenerators and Power Boosted Claymores. The point was that an Offensive Claymore could have a Defensive ability and a Defensive fighting style. As for fighting style, who says that an offensive fighting style has no defense, or that a defensive fighting style has no offense? A Radar in at least the way Teresa uses it, is a defensive ability, in that she avoids taking a hit, and then striking at the opportune time. Your defense can also consist of using an offensive weapon to take out what was about to damage you. What makes it defensive is: Data --> Damage Avoidances Calculation --> Counter Measure. The offensive style could be: (First) Strike --> Observation --> Reaction, where reaction can be another strike or defense. One style you focus in on striking, the other style you focus in on not getting damaged, both styles have offense and defense. Clare has both offensive and defensive abilities. What she inherited from Irene is Offensive with the flash sword, Teresa's ability to predict the yoma's next move is Defensive. In fact, if you looks at Clare's two most impressive moments, IMO, one she uses a Defensive fighting style against the Six Armed AB, having his attack mis her vital organs, then dodging his tenticals, before attacking. The other time was the partial awakening, where she went Berserker and was fighting mostly offensively, occasionally using her defensive abilities inherited from Teresa to dodge some of Rigaldo's more sneaky moves.

My point is, sensing in not offense or defense. Sensing is getting information. Offense or defense is what you do with the information.

If you know what someone is going to do, you can defend against it or you can strike them in an unprotected area.

When Clare killed the group of yoma, she used sensing to go on offense.

[creb]

What any of the last 20 pages has to do with chapter 87 is beyond me. If you're stressing over whether a Claymore is "really" a defensive or offensive type despite what is stated in the manga by the author, than I suggest you should get out and go serve food at your local shelter or something to perhaps bring those minds of yours down to earth.

I swear, silliness like this will be the downfall of the human race.

Back on topic, stripper zombies are hot in a strangely disgusting way. Can't wait to see if they're any good at fighting. :)

[Gangsta Spanksta]

My point is, sensing in not offense or defense. Sensing is getting information. Offense or defense is what you do with the information.

If you know what someone is going to do, you can defend against it or you can strike them in an unprotected area.

When Clare killed the group of yoma, she used sensing to go on offense.

Dunno, I suppose it is how you look at it. Clare going up against a group of yoma is a bit vague, but the question is were those yoma about to strike her before she struck them? Yeah, I think the sensory abilities can be used for Offense, but I still see them as more defensive than offensive in nature, especially Teresa's ability -- the prediction of an opponents next move; it's the ultimate defense.

But Really there are three different concepts here: "Defensive"/"Offensive" Type warriors, Defensive/Offensive abilities, and Defensive/Offensive fighting styles. Again, fighting styles both use Offensive and Defensive moves. It is more a matter if you are fighting first to avoid damage and then administrate damage at opportune times, or if you are fighting first to administrate damage right away, then when your enemy acts you react with defense and then go back to administrating damage. Offensive fighting methods are easier to learn than Defensive, because in Defensive you have to wait for the enemy to make the first move -- usually, depending on skill. Most people on the street use an offensive method, and where I grew up at, you made sure you get the first hit, aim for the head, and the surprise would get you the next few hits, and by the time the opponent is ready to strike back he has already lost the fight from the loss of some sensory perception.

[Awakened]

Dunno, I suppose it is how you look at it. Clare going up against a group of yoma is a bit vague, but the question is were those yoma about to strike her before she struck them? Yeah, I think the sensory abilities can be used for Offense, but I still see them as more defensive than offensive in nature, especially Teresa's ability -- the prediction of an opponents next move; it's the ultimate defense.

But Really there are three different concepts here: "Defensive"/"Offensive" Type warriors, Defensive/Offensive abilities, and Defensive/Offensive fighting styles. Again, fighting styles both use Offensive and Defensive moves. It is more a matter if you are fighting first to avoid damage and then administrate damage at opportune times, or if you are fighting first to administrate damage right away, then when your enemy acts you react with defense and then go back to administrating damage. Offensive fighting methods are easier to learn than Defensive, because in Defensive you have to wait for the enemy to make the first move -- usually, depending on skill. Most people on the street use an offensive method, and where I grew up at, you made sure you get the first hit, aim for the head, and the surprise would get you the next few hits, and by the time the opponent is ready to strike back he has already lost the fight from the loss of some sensory perception.

I see what you are saying, but in a fight you can't always expect to get in the first hit, even if you want too. What if your opponent is much faster than you, and all you could do is wait for the right moment, are you still an offensive warrior?

I think Irean quick-sword is a better defensive ability than Galatea manipulation. Quick-sword creates an almost impenetrable wall around the Claymore. Clare used it twice to escape from the Ab manipulation. Ophelia rippling sword was noting against the quick-sword. Yes I think the quick-sword is an offensive ability, but I can also make an argument that it's a defensive ability (like a shield or a wall).

I agree that some abilities are more offensive than defensive. I still think that sensing is neutral (not offensive or defensive). A warrior with sensing have a six sense. Unless you consider the eye and ear to be defensive in nature. Sensing is like modern warfear, there are sensors everywhere monitoring the enemies every move.

Sensing make it easy to go on offense, it also increases your chance to get in the first hit.:p

[PureYoki]

@ Awakened:

Just curious, which abilities (other than regeneration & healing) do you think is more defensive than offensive?

[Awakened]

@ Awakened:

Just curious, which abilities (other than regeneration & healing) do you think is more defensive than offensive?

I think all the other abilities are Offensive. Galatea and Audrey abilities could be considered as defensive, but at the end of the day, their abilities are used to kill the enemy.

Galatea can use her ability to create an opening to attack the enemy. Someone can do the same thing with their sword (create an opening by disarming their opponent).
Am starting to think that her ability might be defensive because it does not directly harm the opponent. Ab in the north used the same ability but he could not kill anyone with it, only make them awaken (as far as I know).

Audrey on the other hand could actually kill someone with her ability (indirectly). It's almost like ti-chi, just a deferent type of martial-art.

If a group of Claymore's are advancing on the enemy, putting Audrey or Clare at the front of the line might produce the same result. They can defended against incoming attacks, just in a deferent way.

I might change my mind, but Galatea ability looks like the most defensive one. She actually have to do something els to deliver the final blow.

Edit: The Ab in the north almost made Udine (forgot the spelling) kill herself, but that not a reliable way to use manipulation, so it might still be defensive.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Manipulation probably is more offensive, whereas Prediction is more defensive.

[Awakened]

Manipulation probably is more offensive, whereas Prediction is more defensive.

We will have to agree to disagree on prediction.
If you are standing on a train track, knowing that the train is coming is not going to prevent the train from hitting you. You have to decide to face the train head on or get off the track.

[Cyclone]

@Awakened:
I think you mean Audrey, not Rachel...

[Awakened]

@Awakened:
I think you mean Audrey, not Rachel...

lol, I will change it.

thanks

[Gangsta Spanksta]

We will have to agree to disagree on prediction.
If you are standing on a train track, knowing that the train is coming is not going to prevent the train from hitting you. You have to decide to face the train head on or get off the track.

Knowing the train is going to come, would make most people get off the track, thus avoiding damage. Defense is all about damage reduction; what better way to reduce damage than to avoid it all together, which is something prediction gives you and to a lesser extent radar.

[Awakened]

Knowing the train is going to come, would make most people get off the track, thus avoiding damage. Defense is all about damage reduction; what better way to reduce damage than to avoid it all together, which is something prediction gives you and to a lesser extent radar.

I agree that you are able to take defensive action in advance, but predicting something is not a defensive action.

[GundamZZ]

I stick with the official explanation. The warrior's type is determined by their mind and body. During the initial stage of their hybridization, their mental tendency will influence their types. If the trainee's primary object is to decimate yoma, her body will develop to offensive type. If the trainee's primary object is preserve oneself, her body will develop to defensive type. The type is determined by body, not skill. Offensive type can deliver the significant damages and defensive type can take the significant damages. The organization thinks there is no better type. Only the warrior who can use their skill as their advantage is considered as the top warrior.

[Sleepy Speculator]

@Gundam ironically that's not the main problem, the problem is how the difference between defensive and offensive manifests itself in shown techniques and abilities.

Pre-emptive aura perception may be used to get close to an opponent but it lends nothing to someone's attack, it is primarily 'evasion' which can then be used as a counter measure. To use the radar analogy someone posted earlier, it allows a stronger defensive force to be mounted as a 'counter attack', than would normally be available, what the radar can't do is assist the offensive bombing fleets apart from warning them about the presence of night fighters.

Galatea's perception is used to manipulate actions in order to miss her so she doesn't have to evade, but the effect is the same. She can't attack using that skill, she has to physically do that.

[Ryuken]

Knowing the train is going to come, would make most people get off the track, thus avoiding damage.

You are right about that. But in some cases you don't see the train coming. In others, you know that a train would come but still you are powerless to stop it because it is just too damn fast. What then?:confused:

[Ancient Soul]

@Gundam ironically that's not the main problem, the problem is how the difference between defensive and offensive manifests itself in shown techniques and abilities.

My opinion...

Deffensive ones don't tend to use yoki even while in great danger while offensive ones even when they don't really need this.Galatea & Ophelia , Audrey & Rachel are good examples of this trend.

Galatea don't have to use much yoki for her yoki-manipulaion.Not only that but is like is using short-time yoki synch to limit even further the use of yoki (in contrast with the AB in the north who used yoki-manipulation without break thus consuming yoki).In contrast Ophelia went in gold-eye mode just to have some fun with Clare.If we look at Audrey & Rachel combo for example Rachel go gold-eye mode when she first attack Riful while Audrey didn't when used Gentle-sword or even whe was about to be caught.Deffensive types are more reluctant to use of yoki than offensive ones.They progres most likely is hindered by this and their tehniques quite limited.

It seem that deffensive warriors tend to use\create\invent tehniques that not involve the usage of too much yoki (manipulation, gentle sword, Cynthia's healing) , while the offensive claymores tend to use yoki for their tehniques
(Strong Sword, Ripple Sword, Phantom , Quiksword, Windcutter) in order to inflict as much damage possible.Some of this offensive tehniques can be used without yoki but they aren't as strong as the original version (phantom is slower, windcutter is slower) and some of them can't be used (quicksword).

Clare (offensive) can't use so good Galatea's manipulation while Cynthia (deffensive) created a variation on her own.They can use the other category tehnques but not at the same level.They lack afinity.I'm sure that Galatea can learn Quicksword but she would want to fully awaken one of her arms in order to use it?I don't think so!

My point is that claymores ability to create\use tehniques is limited by their nature offensive\deffensive.Otherwise we will have seen all the ghosts using windcutter\phantom.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

You are right about that. But in some cases you don't see the train coming. In others, you know that a train would come but still you are powerless to stop it because it is just too damn fast. What then?:confused:

The best way to explain why radar and prediction are defensive is to say that you can label them as early warning systems. An early warning system is a defensive capability that lets you minimize damages using other means. A Nuclear warhead is on its way, go under ground. Someone is breaking into the house, get the gun. A group of airplanes is coming in from the west to bomb, intercept. If you don't have the early warning system, then you are more likely to take on damage, and defense is about Damage reduction/avoidance.

[Ryuken]

The best way to explain why radar and prediction are defensive is to say that you can label them as early warning systems. An early warning system is a defensive capability that lets you minimize damages using other means. A Nuclear warhead is on its way, go under ground. Someone is breaking into the house, get the gun. A group of airplanes is coming in from the west to bomb, intercept. If you don't have the early warning system, then you are more likely to take on damage, and defense is about Damage reduction/avoidance.

Nicely put.:)

[Sleepy Speculator]

@awakened soul

thankyou for a post that's based on observation, whenever i said something along the lines of 'has anyone noticed defensive types don't really use much yoki' i tend to get blank looks. I have to say i agree with you entirely.

@gansta

i can't find fault with that...


Now... if Clare is relatively unsuited to a defensive ability (perception used for manipulation) that she's inherited from Teresa who was said to have 'unparalleled yoki perception' or something similar,what does that imply about Teresa's suitability for a defensive technique?

And although Teresa never ran from a fight she was so incredibly powerful being #1 and all that there's v.little for her to actually be concerned with running from, and if she had run the hunting team would have tracked her down with Clare in tow. She was concerned not with her own safety but with Clare's. (defensive types aren't cowards... they prioritise survival, this didn't change when she was with Clare as without her Clare's survival chances are lower, look what happened when she left Clare in a village... boom bandits appear.)

[Awakened]

Something to consider when calling sensing a defensive ability.

All Claymores are able to use sensing, some can do it better than others. Your ear can arlert you if someone is sneeking up on you, you can see someone getting ready to attack you, you can feel it if someone have a knife poking your skin.

Are all senses defensive in nature or are they neutral?

[Sleepy Speculator]

Now that question is actually a metaphysical question the gun lobby, would be interested in hearing a positive answer to.

Truth be told in the analogy the gun like a sword or even science is a tool, and the senses are a tool to facilitate an exchange of information between the world and the individual, however how one chooses to use a tool determines what we would perceive as 'good' or 'bad' and how a claymore uses their 'sword' or 'senses' determines what we call 'defensive' or 'offensive' or at the v.least it is the other way around.

The sword is iconically a weapon and not a tool used for other things such as hunting (spear), threshing grain (flail), or preparing meat (knife). The purpose for which one uses a sword however is what leads to whether the said item and the wielder is venerated or feared. Claymore itself displays this not only because the warriors are synonomously named with the blades they wield, which is incidently the only decent equipment they are provided with (uniform and armor being decorative), but because the very difference between how they are used is shown in Teresa's story alone. Teresa was generally feared, and quite disdainful of humans, it's not hard to believe she would kill them, and she dropped threats about destruction to those who 'don't pay', yet when she kills a yoma and rescues a child villager for no fee, she is treated as a hero, which surprises her, yet the situation is the same the person has a different motive.

Senses in claymore are heightened, and each certified warrior has to be capable of yoki sensing at least. However there are those who are v.good at it, and use those advanced senses to sense opponents over longer distances than they can sense them (Galatea... whoops Clare can sense her). Sense how opponents are going to attack them (Teresa, Clare, Galatea) Sense weaknesses in opponents (Tabitha, Galatea), or even just as a warning system (Renee... whoops it was a set up and Duff was the bait)

They have all by and large though been defensive warriors, Teresa was never revealed by type, Cynthia was shown to be as competent as Clare, and Clare though offensive inherited the ability at such a high level from Teresa.

[blurredvision]

Manipulation probably is more offensive, whereas Prediction is more defensive.

I believe everyone agree that offensive ones can't regenerate as good as defensive ones, they have more power to finish the opponent faster.

However, as the offensive ones tends to attack(offense) they require skills to dodge attacks, while defensive ones can tolerate attacks from opponents to some extent.

Thus, offensive ones requires techniques or skills that can prevent being hit.
(They are offensive warriors not suicidal warriors, they shouldn't take much damage, though they rush to the enemy)

In that case speed,dodge,precognition(the best) are offensive skills which leave you unharmed and give credit for counter-attack, and cqc-precognition is the most effective offensive tech.

Also, why would a defensive warrior who could tolerate damage would still try to avoid damage instead of trying to increase it's offensive effectiveness by using manipulative techniques? They require to use its oppenents strenght against it as they lack in strenght. (don't need to mention to sense weak spots which require lesser strength to do more damage) Since their attack power is limited they require skills to overcome this disadvantage. Moreover, why would a strong/offensive warrior would bother with manipulation? They depend on their own strength.

Manipulation is more defensive, but precognition is more offensive in my opinion.

[chibamonster]

About youki sensing being purely defensive I have to disagree yet again. In the radar example radar can absolutely be used offensively. Radar can be used for missile locks, the noise you hear in movies when a jet has acquired a target. Clare utilizes her youki sensing to not only avoid enemies attacks but to pick targets as she did when she targeted Duff's arms and avoided Jean. The information comes so quickly she merges offense and defense at once and is able to do them simultaneously. Clare usually leads with a well targeted attack, especially against youma who she previously had to trick which made it seem like she was always be on the defensive.

We have even seen youki sensing again used explicitly in the manga; Nina's Secret Technique Shadow Hunter is a youki seeking attack. Her sword follows youki until it is quenched and eliminated. Offensive youki sensing.

Youki sensing is information and is not inherently offensive or defensive; it is how the information is used that gives those manifestations. It gives precise information to both attack and defend. Youki manipulation can also be used offensively and defensively. As can the Quicksword, which can create a shield that blocks rods, tentacles and even raining drops of blood. Miria's phantoms also are used for both offense and defense.

There are few attack techniques that rely heavily on one side or the other. Deneve's healing is entirely defensive. Jean and Rachel need setup time for their attacks and need people to defend them while they ready themselves. Miata's technique seems to be primarily defensive and her strength is her offense, though she is able to track people down and we have not seen much of her technique in action yet.

[PureYoki]

Although defensive claymores are more resilient to damage, they (even Deneve) still have to avoid serious injuries because regeneration is of no use if they can't continue the fight and die. Till now in the story when defensive warriors had a fight, there were always an offensive warrior around to provide them the vital time to regenerate in case of an injury.

We know offensive warriors are already much better in attack, if they also outperform defensive ones in perception which helps them evade the comparatively weaker attacks of defensive claymores, technically defensive warriors would be overwhelmed against offensive ones. I don't believe there is such an imbalance between defensive and offensive warriors, I don't believe an offensive warrior can overwhelm a defensive warrior who has the same yoki potential.

It's like "Jean has the most destructive attack but it has a major weakness, she needs an ultra-powerful defensive ability to compensate this weakness." It's perfectly natural for offensive warriors to have exploitable weaknesses in defense just like defensive warriors have a weakness of their own in attack and thus are not that skillful in exploiting the weaknesses of offensive warriors.

[Fenrir_valindri]

But who is to say that defensive types aren't technically inferior?
Sure we have the rare single-digit defensive Claymore, but most are Offensive types.

It could simply be a case of the offensive Claymores having a larger surplus of Yoki naturally. So saying a "defensive warrior with equal Yoki" might very well be going against how things are normally. Defensive warriors could very well be less powerful then Offensive types.

-----

For the record, I think Yoki-manipulation is defensive, we have only seen skillful/easy use of Yoki manipulation from Defensive type Claymores, while Clare (an offensive type) finds it almost impossible to use.

-----

I will agree that Yoki-sensing itself is a natural trait to all Claymores, some; like Clare/Teresa/Galatea/Rene, are simply better at it then others.

[Sleepy Speculator]

I can't disagree with that, but i think there's a trend also for those who compensate for their weaknesses to gain higher ranks. For the offensive warriors this means 'calming down' and improving their defensive abilities, Irene strikes me as being someone who has quelled her own bloodlust, and Miria uses a sudden burst of speed to compensate for her general slow reaction time as she tries to figure out a better plan. Similarly defensive warriors who decide to be a bit nutty or use yoki climb into the higher ranks, Galatea had a really high quality yoki release and enough control/practice to be as near her limit as possible, and Deneve has a suicidal fighting style where she will take wounds to close in on an enemy.

[PureYoki]

But who is to say that defensive types aren't technically inferior?
Sure we have the rare single-digit defensive Claymore, but most are Offensive types.

It could simply be a case of the offensive Claymores having a larger surplus of Yoki naturally. So saying a "defensive warrior with equal Yoki" might very well be going against how things are normally. Defensive warriors could very well be less powerful then Offensive types.

We don't have enough data to verify it but it seems average rank of offensive claymores are higher than defensive claymores. If this is the case, offensive claymores may have a higher yoki potential on average or/and offensive claymores may be technically superior. I believe defensive claymores aren't technically inferior and if their average rank is lower than offensive claymores, it's due to their lower yoki potential. And even if there's a possibility that they are technically inferior, I still don't think they're inferior in dodging attacks because it simply doesn't make sense. A defensive warrior whose defense is inferior to offensive types?! :confused:

[chibamonster]

Youki manipulation can absolutely be used offensively, as others have mentioned. The Youki manipulator AB attacked Undine and almost made her kill herself. Even after the battle Undine was truly shaken by the experience. Making an enemy awaken is also an attack. Not only do you kill the human minded warrior in front of you, but you get an ally as well. Pretty terrifying actually.

Getting through an opponents defense is also offensive and an attack, just like Galatea does in forcing Duff to open his hand to lop it off. That is not a defensive action though she does do quite a bit of defense with youki manipulation as well.

Attacks need not be physical to be offensive. Raphaela and Luciella are hiding in an impenetrable merged body where their mind is sealed off, but when someone like Renee goes probing she is attacked by just their youki. I will have to double check the raw to find out exactly what happened though as I don't exactly remember from last time I read the raw and I have seen a few translations. Attacks that are not physical can be incredibly devastating, like in Evangelion where Asuka is psychicly attacked and left devastated by Arael the 15th angel (accompanied, of course, by the Hallelujah Chorus from Handel's Messiah).

As Claymore focuses on the nature of the characters psyche and motivations, attacks can come from many different sources. Rubel has yet to physically hurt a single person himself yet has attacked, and nearly killed, many characters. Isley started bullying Riful by spreading rumors and picking a fight.

Most characters have both offensive and defensive characteristics to them, and most techniques have offensive and defensive characteristics as well. From what we know the feeling that was strongest during their creation is what effects them the most. It permanently creates the type of youki they have; whether they are defensive and able to regenerate quickly or offensive. Even awakening does not change the characters type though offensive AB's can regenerate limbs... it just takes longer... unless they are Priscilla who uses pure youki...

Even Ophelia's body, while unable to heal like a defensive type, had defensive properties that saved her from dying when her head was twisted like a bottle cap. This same flexibility in her limbs helped her Ripple sword and eventually she became a snake in her awakened form.

-----

And is it possible that defensive types are just more rare than offensive types all around? That could explain the skew in power rankings.

[Ryuken]

So mainly, many attacks can be used offensively as well as defensively too. Provided one has the ability and the capacity to perform such an attack. And also the knowledge to pull off such moves, like Clare's improved quick sword, when she did it for the first time, now that was something special. What they say is true then, that knowledge is power.:)

[Gangsta Spanksta]

About youki sensing being purely defensive I have to disagree yet again. In the radar example radar can absolutely be used offensively. Radar can be used for missile locks, the noise you hear in movies when a jet has acquired a target. Clare utilizes her youki sensing to not only avoid enemies attacks but to pick targets as she did when she targeted Duff's arms and avoided Jean. The information comes so quickly she merges offense and defense at once and is able to do them simultaneously. Clare usually leads with a well targeted attack, especially against youma who she previously had to trick which made it seem like she was always be on the defensive.

We have even seen youki sensing again used explicitly in the manga; Nina's Secret Technique Shadow Hunter is a youki seeking attack. Her sword follows youki until it is quenched and eliminated. Offensive youki sensing.

Youki sensing is information and is not inherently offensive or defensive; it is how the information is used that gives those manifestations. It gives precise information to both attack and defend. Youki manipulation can also be used offensively and defensively. As can the Quicksword, which can create a shield that blocks rods, tentacles and even raining drops of blood. Miria's phantoms also are used for both offense and defense.

There are few attack techniques that rely heavily on one side or the other. Deneve's healing is entirely defensive. Jean and Rachel need setup time for their attacks and need people to defend them while they ready themselves. Miata's technique seems to be primarily defensive and her strength is her offense, though she is able to track people down and we have not seen much of her technique in action yet.

I never said that the Radar was purely defensive, but mostly defensive; Irene Flash Sword is mostly offensive. I think in most cases the Radar acts as an early warning system. There are times you use it to find the weak point of an enemy. It isn't used that often, I think, to sneak up on unsuspecting enemies, but it can be. Manipulation is mostly offensive, unless it is used for healing, or having the enemy miss, but in the later case it is both offensive and defensive at the same time, since it is also psychological warfare. at least it was for the duffster... The Precognition is almost always defensive as I see it, since it usually is a strike when the enemy is about to strike to avoid damage. The actual strike itself may be offensive, but the precognition prevented damage upon the claymore. It's the same way that Irene used her radar or senses. Two Yoma try to jump her from the sides, Radar is defense, which is followed up by the flash sword slicing them up and the rain of purple blood, which was offensive. In that case, Irene was fighting defensively. Concentrate on defending yourself --> look for opening --> attack vs. attack --> react; react = defend or attack again. The thing with Claymores is that even when defensive fighting they can find weak spots almost instantaneously -- Teresa -- and cand use their early warning system to strike before the weakling yoma can even make its move, making it look like offensive fighting when it was defensive.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Even Ophelia's body, while unable to heal like a defensive type, had defensive properties that saved her from dying when her head was twisted like a bottle cap. This same flexibility in her limbs helped her Ripple sword and eventually she became a snake in her awakened form.

-----

And is it possible that defensive types are just more rare than offensive types all around? That could explain the skew in power rankings.

I don't think we can judge Ophelia's case: 1) She was a newly awakened being, and while fighting on instincts may not have learned everything about her abilities. 2) Did she even want to heal once finding out she had become what she hated the most, which was something she became way before awakening and hadn't realized, really. Out of all the Claymores in the story, Ophelia acted the most like an Awaken Being before she awakened, with that loss of morality she had.

[blurredvision]

I never said that the Radar was purely defensive, but mostly defensive; Irene Flash Sword is mostly offensive. I think in most cases the Radar acts as an early warning system. There are times you use it to find the weak point of an enemy. It isn't used that often, I think, to sneak up on unsuspecting enemies, but it can be. Manipulation is mostly offensive, unless it is used for healing, or having the enemy miss, but in the later case it is both offensive and defensive at the same time, since it is also psychological warfare. at least it was for the duffster... The Precognition is almost always defensive as I see it, since it usually is a strike when the enemy is about to strike to avoid damage. The actual strike itself may be offensive, but the precognition prevented damage upon the claymore. It's the same way that Irene used her radar or senses. Two Yoma try to jump her from the sides, Radar is defense, which is followed up by the flash sword slicing them up and the rain of purple blood, which was offensive. In that case, Irene was fighting defensively. Concentrate on defending yourself --> look for opening --> attack vs. attack --> react; react = defend or attack again. The thing with Claymores is that even when defensive fighting they can find weak spots almost instantaneously -- Teresa -- and cand use their early warning system to strike before the weakling yoma can even make its move, making it look like offensive fighting when it was defensive.

Precognition lets you prepare your attack stance according to your oppenents action and guarentee that you've the upperhand therefore it's offensive, it's not
just defensive, in the same way someone claims that flashsword is defensive as it prevents others to take action or a berserked warrior is defensive "best defence is attack"

In swordplay(actually in bushido)

1) if you had seen your oppenents sword has moved and you acted instantly; if you are lucky you may survive
2) if you act as the same time your opponent moved his arm for strike, you may block the attack, and if you're lucky enough you may hit
3) But only if you sense(read) your opponents move and acted before them, you may win.

Bushido, even is for self protection in these years, it was never for defense in the beginning. And mangas are japanese products written by authors educated by that kind of knowledge. (They learn to adapt it to any given situation; don't know if it works though)

Teresa has gifted with the best offensive skill, not defensive.

I really don't understand why are you trying to categorize characters by their skills. It's like first you are choosing your class (offense/defence) then you choose your skills (such in GW,FRP). For example, manipulation is a very good attacking for a defensive warrior who lacks in power, thus she borrows her opponents power, however an offensive warriors need skills to kill opponents instantly and skills to prevent them take damage.

A defensive warrior you has precognition may evade attacks which won't kill her, and when it comes to counter her strenght would be enough? It's wiser her to improve her attack or accuracy.

Or if you choose monk as a class, and then choose skills to buff your abilities (strenght,damage) and involve in combat instead of healing that doesn't make you a warrior. (in that scenario take warrior as offensive warriors, and monk as defensive warriors because monk has regen spells and warriors has strenght)

[Ryuken]

That was one of the things that got me surprised at first. Mainly because when a claymore awakens for the first time she doesn't realize that she had actually awakened, acts as if nothing has happened and things like that. Although I would think that in Prisy's case she did feel some kind of good sensation, she said that she could not believe that she was holding back such a nice thing, feeling, sensation.....you know, the thing that makes one feel good. Although I know that she had no idea that she had awakened.:eyebrow::confused::)

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Precognition lets you prepare your attack stance according to your oppenents action and guarentee that you've the upperhand therefore it's offensive, it's not
just defensive, in the same way someone claims that flashsword is defensive as it prevents others to take action or a berserked warrior is defensive "best defence is attack"

It's defensive, because it provides you an early warning, which gives you time to react in order to avoid taking on damage, and that action just so happens to be an attack to take out what was going to cause the damage. Think of it as a fighter jet is sent out to take out a target, while on its way to take out a target a SAM site launches a surface to air missile, destroying the fighter. The SAM site is a defensive weapon. Just because you attack something, doesn't mean it is automatically offensive fighting. A SAM site is primarily used as defense. It goes back to Defensive Fighting vs Offensive Fighting. Defensive Fighting: Defend --> Wait for opening --> Attack. Offensive Figthing: Attack --> React to enemy; Reaction being either Defend or Attack. The way Teresa uses Precognition is: Get Early Warning --> Defend against the attack before it even happens by attacking first, or dodge it the right way and then attack. It is Defend --> Wait for opening --> attack, because she avoids damage by knowing what is going to happen before it happens, which is her defense, and then she knows how the enemy is going to move, so she sees the opening instantaneously, and then attacks accordingly. The precognition, the early warning, itself is the defense in her defensive fighting style, the sword strike is the attack. The precognition itself is not what causes damage to the enemy. BTW, a defensive fighter could have the greatest offensive attack in his arsenal, and an offensive fighter could have the best defensive move in their arsenal.


Teresa has gifted with the best offensive skill, not defensive.


What is this offensive skill you speak off. You probably are referring to precognition, but that's more defensive than offensive skill wise, just like the flash sword is more offensive than defensive. In fact, Irene is a good example. She uses her Radar as a defense, avoiding damage from the two yoma jumping from each side in an ambush, she then uses her flash sword to take out the yoma. That was defensive fighting. defend (see yoma trying to ambush her with radar, making the ambush useless, giving her time to plan and react) --> wait for opening (wait for yoma to get into range) --> attack (flash sword). Again, defense is all about damage reduction/avoidance, which is what radar and precognition does. Teresa is an 'Offensive' type warrior (power boosted) with a defensive ability (precognition) and a defensive fighting style (defend->wait for opening->attack) I haven't seen one fight from her where I've seen her use an offensive style. Now Clare, I've seen her fight both defensively (Slashers) and offensively (the war in the north) . I've seen Helen and Deneve both fight offensively. I've seen Irene fight defensively and offensively. Priscilla I've seen fight offensively. It might be that we are speaking of different concepts here.

Or if you choose monk as a class, and then choose skills to buff your abilities (strenght,damage) and involve in combat instead of healing that doesn't make you a warrior. (in that scenario take warrior as offensive warriors, and monk as defensive warriors because monk has regen spells and warriors has strenght)

Okay now you are getting into D&D... which is a gaming system that makes all kinds of stupid rules that don't make sense in real life. :) Before D&D green dragons usually spat fire like red dragons, but different breath weapons fit a game. Monks all the sudden are martial artists with silly rules applied to them for gaming purposes. I'm not saying that D&D can't be fun, but a game has absolutely nothing to do with the Claymore world.

[Freya]

When does spoilers for Chapter 88 come out?

[Gangsta Spanksta]

That was one of the things that got me surprised at first. Mainly because when a claymore awakens for the first time she doesn't realize that she had actually awakened, acts as if nothing has happened and things like that. Although I would think that in Prisy's case she did feel some kind of good sensation, she said that she could not believe that she was holding back such a nice thing, feeling, sensation.....you know, the thing that makes one feel good. Although I know that she had no idea that she had awakened.:eyebrow::confused::)

Well the thing to remember is: Priscilla and Ophelia were already nuts before they fully awakened. Priscilla case it is more that she became nuts as she was awakening, but then we have sane Awakeneds out there like Isley -- okay formerly sane -- and Riful. So, we can't say that all don't know that they awakened, which Rosemary knew for sure. Ophelia and Priscilla are just bad examples. We do know though that all awakeneds seem to lose some human values though, though in Priscilla case it seems like she regained some.

[Sleepy Speculator]

See this is the issue i have with the logic that Irene was fighting defensively, for sure she defended herself, but also i think it could be like this...

Offensive fighting attack... react... attack again, hopefully the enemy is already dead, hence the sword skills as offensive techniques

Defensive fighting evade... react... attack, the evasion of sorts allows the defensive fighter to carry on the fight where slower offensive types are already bleeding out.

Now Teresa and Galatea undoubtedly fight like this

evade (either through perception or manipulation)... react... attack

Irene however can sense but doesn't have flow perception or manipulation abilities, so in order to attack first she has to get close enough to attack an opponent, and her legs may not be as fast as her arms, and so

yoma thought they had initiative but, Irene is *much faster* and takes no evasive action but instead attacks them as they come into range, in essence although she knew they were there, she waited for them to get closer, because why move if you don't have to?

the fight was
awareness but no movement... wait for yoma to come in range ...attack...yoma dead no need for further reaction

the yoma were such small fry that Irene seemed bothered by having to move at all to kill them, in fact she was even bothered by Noel and Sophia arguing as if it was already giving her a headache to deal with, Sophia even thought Irene was showing off abit.

The difference is in the level of perception, any claymore would know where the yoma was, look at what the yoma impersonating the village chief said about trying to hide his aura from Clare,

"even though i supressed my presence to the limit, it was still useless against a claymore"

or even the one that attacked Clare's graduation group.

"i can't believe these warriors in training they don't even know how to hide themselves or their yoki"

All the claymores have radar and know what's going on around them, but Galatea, Renee, Clare, Teresa have been talking about reading flows and details. Helen looked at Agatha and couldn't believe what she thought was her real size, but what Tabitha, and Galatea (and likely Clare as well) were seeing was the actual weak spot moving around inside, to put that in the context of radar they don't just see a blip move with every sweep of the radar, they see the target all the time, where the pilot is sitting, the power to the engines, what weapon systems are active etc. Which gives them a whole range of different fighting options.

[Awakened]

to put that in the context of radar they don't just see a blip move with every sweep of the radar, they see the target all the time, where the pilot is sitting, the power to the engines, what weapon systems are active etc. Which gives them a whole range of different fighting options.

I agree, its not just about defense, its more about options.

[blurredvision]

It's defensive, because it provides you an early warning, which gives you time to react in order to avoid taking on damage, and that action just so happens to be an attack to take out what was going to cause the damage.

[QUOTE=Gangsta Spanksta;2173414]Think of it as a fighter jet is sent out to take out a target, while on its way to take out a target a SAM site launches a surface to air missile, destroying the fighter. The SAM site is a defensive weapon. Just because you attack something, doesn't mean it is automatically offensive fighting.

And just because sensing enemy in order to attack make it defensive ?
And missiles has absolutely something to do with the Claymore world ? :heh:
(SAM is not defending, SAM is attacking , it's defending the airbase or city if you locate them near the enemy airfield it becomes offensive; precognition doesn't mean sense,dodge and then attack, it gives you information about your oppenents actions. It's not a SAM but a computer simulation that shows every action that other party will do, if you use this info to avoid ->defensive, to attack ->offensive.

Defensive Fighting: Defend --> Wait for opening --> Attack. Offensive Figthing: Attack --> React to enemy; Reaction being either Defend or Attack. The way Teresa uses Precognition is: Get Early Warning --> Defend against the attack before it even happens by attacking first, or dodge it the right way and then attack. It is Defend --> Wait for opening --> attack, because she avoids damage by knowing what is going to happen before it happens, which is her defense, and then she knows how the enemy is going to move, so she sees the opening instantaneously, and then attacks accordingly. The precognition, the early warning, itself is the defense in her defensive fighting style, the sword strike is the attack. The precognition itself is not what causes damage to the enemy. BTW, a defensive fighter could have the greatest offensive attack in his arsenal, and an offensive fighter could have the best defensive move in their arsenal.

In fact, Irene is a good example. She uses her Radar as a defense, avoiding damage from the two yoma jumping from each side in an ambush, she then uses her flash sword to take out the yoma. That was defensive fighting. defend (see yoma trying to ambush her with radar, making the ambush useless, giving her time to plan and react) --> wait for opening (wait for yoma to get into range) --> attack (flash sword). Again, defense is all about damage reduction/avoidance, which is what radar and precognition does.

Chapter 18 page 12, Irene didn't evade nor dodge, she entrusted her flash-sword, thus flash -sword is her defence instead of radar in that page. Evade and waiting for an opening for just two yoma:twitch:, I guess you seem her inferior. She sensed them and let them attack, didn't even bother to defence as she knows they wouldn't even see her attack. Regarding avoidance a milisecond attack is also defensive as it prevents others to damage you (The only difference with precognition, precog. is even faster, in flash-sword it allows you to act fast w/o knowing the enemy, however in Teresa's case she acts fast and also knows her opponents every move)

If you hit your oppenents sword to parry -> defensive
Hitting the enemy -> offensive
But what about hitting your oppenents sword, break his/her stance and then hit the vital point? (defensive, of course not)

using radar/senses for to locate enemy and attack -> offensive
using radar to evade -> defensive

It's not the item/skill/technique that makes it defensive or offensive, the usage makes them defensive or offensive.

[iLney]

Lol, defense and offense....

What animal is green and likes to eat cheese?

=> Answer: a cat!

The same goes for offensive and defensive claymores :heh:

[chibamonster]

I'm with Awakened, sensing gives options: attack, defend, suppress your youki, run, taunt, etc...

Youki sensing can definitely be used offensively in a youki seeking missile like attack. Nina even closes her eyes.

Chapter 65 starting page 17

Nina: Secret Technique: Shadow Hunter!
Bug AB: Too bad. Looking like this my speed is far above the average awakened beings... ?!?! What is with you... seeing... No way!
Nina: It's no use. Once my blade is released it doesn't stop moving until the targeted youma energy is extinguished.
Bug AB: You little... You are chasing my youma energy!?

Her youki sensing technique is probably too offensive as she needs others to defend her even while she is sensing a target.

@iLney: A green mouse. (http://kumikae01.gen-info.osaka-u.ac.jp/tg/tg-ad.cfm) Courtesy of the organization of course.

[PureYoki]

Let's assume that a technique mostly used by defensive warriors is a defensive technique and a technique mostly used by offensive warriors is an offensive technique. This assumption makes yoki sensing a defensive technique.

Let's assume that any unusual way of swinging the sword which lets you overcome opponent's defense to make a hit (like drill sword, rippling sword, quick sword, shadow hunter, etc.) is an offensive technique and the rest are defensive techniques. This assumption makes yoki sensing a defensive technique.

Let's assume that any technique which either heals or lets you anticipate your opponent's move is a defensive technique and the rest are offensive techniques. This assumption makes yoki sensing a defensive technique.

All these assumptions say that yoki sensing is a defensive technique, so I believe it is indeed a defensive technique.

The counterarguments:

a) "A technique which lets you defeat your opponent is an offensive technique." This argument suggests all techniques are offensive techniques because they all help us gain the upper hand against an opponent in some way or another, and consequently defeat the opponent. There is no point in classification.

b) "We can't classify the techniques, it depends on the usage." Again no classification.

So we basically argue whether there should be a classification or not. Because if there's indeed a classification, all assumptions indicate that yoki sensing is a defensive technique. (Feel free to add your own if you disagree with all my assumptions.)

It was Yagi who introduced the defensive and offensive type concepts, so it's not far-fetched to assume there are techniques closely associated with these types. I also feel there should be a distinction between, for example, drill sword and yoki sensing, this is why I believe there should be a classification.

[Awakened]

Let's assume that a technique mostly used by defensive warriors is a defensive technique and a technique mostly used by offensive warriors is an offensive technique. This assumption makes yoki sensing a defensive technique.

Let's assume that any unusual way of swinging the sword which lets you overcome opponent's defense to make a hit (like drill sword, rippling sword, quick sword, shadow hunter, etc.) is an offensive technique and the rest are defensive techniques. This assumption makes yoki sensing a defensive technique.

Let's assume that any technique which either heals or lets you anticipate your opponent's move is a defensive technique and the rest are offensive techniques. This assumption makes yoki sensing a defensive technique.

All these assumptions say that yoki sensing is a defensive technique, so I believe it is indeed a defensive technique.

The counterarguments:

a) "A technique which lets you defeat your opponent is an offensive technique." This argument suggests all techniques are offensive techniques because they all help us gain the upper hand against an opponent in some way or another, and consequently defeat the opponent. There is no point in classification.

b) "We can't classify the techniques, it depends on the usage." Again no classification.

So we basically argue whether there should be a classification or not. Because if there's indeed a classification, all assumptions indicate that yoki sensing is a defensive technique. (Feel free to add your own if you disagree with all my assumptions.)

It was Yagi who introduced the defensive and offensive type concepts, so it's not far-fetched to assume there are techniques closely associated with these types. I also feel there should be a distinction between, for example, drill sword and yoki sensing, this is why I believe there should be a classification.

Your assumptions are made to support your argument, not very objective. You assume that yoki sensing is defensive when used for defense but has no classification when used for offense.

You said because drill-sword is an offensive technique, sensing is a defensive technique. You fail to mention that Claymore use sensing most of the time when performing an offensive technique.

Am still wating for an anwser from the die-hard suporters that believe that sensing is defensive.

Are all the sensice defensive techniques (seeing, hearing, smelling ...)?

They perform the same function as sensing, that why sensing is called sensing.:D

Chiba also brought up the point that Nena offensive technique uses sensing, and she has no defense.

[PureYoki]

Your assumptions are made to support your argument, not very objective.

As I said Feel free to add your own if you disagree with all my assumptions.

You assume that yoki sensing is defensive when used for defense but has no classification when used for offense.

I included this argument in "no classification, it depends on the usage" category.

You said because drill-sword is an offensive technique, sensing is a defensive technique.

It's only an argument to support the need for a classification. See my assumptions for why I think yoki sensing is a defensive technique.

Am still wating for an anwser from the die-hard suporters that believe that sensing is defensive.

Are all the sensice defensive techniques (seeing, hearing, smelling ...)?

They perform the same function as sensing, that why sensing is called sensing.:D

When I am talking about a technique, I'm not talking about natural abilities which all claymores possess. All claymores can see, hear, smell, so what's the point in classifying them? But if you're asking about Miata's enhanced senses, yes, I consider it as a defensive technique.

Chiba also brought up the point that Nena offensive technique uses sensing, and she has no defense.

Yoki sensing is only a constituent of shadow hunter. Yoki sensing is NOT shadow hunter, just like milk shake is NOT milk. I like milk shake but I don't like milk alone. :)

[Awakened]

When I am talking about a technique, I'm not talking about natural abilities which all claymores possess. All claymores can see, hear, smell, so what's the point in classifying them? But if you're asking about Miata's enhanced senses, yes, I consider it as a defensive technique.


Am not really satisfied with your answer. Yoki sensing is not a technique but an enhance sensing ability, just like Superman can see through wall, seeing is natural but superman has enhanced vision, just like Claymores have enhance sensing.

If we can compare sensing to a radar, then we can compare sensing to ears and eye. A radar is an extension to your senses. Your vision is limited, but when you use a radar you are able to see an object that can be picked up by radar, but to far to be seen by the eye. When a Claymore is good at sensing they are able to anticipate the opponent movement. An experienced fighter can do the same thing, they just have less time to react.

Sensing is just like reading a book, you have to use your senses to do it. Manipulation is a technique that uses sensing.

[chibamonster]

@PureYoki: The argument against shadow hunter is flawed; youki sensing itself does nothing but provide information for defense either. Sensing something does not protect you from it, as shown with Clare fighting Ophelia's Ripple sword. You still have to move, you still have to do something. In that sense, youki sensing is not an offensive technique or a defensive technique at all; it is just added information. It can be used offensively like Nina, or defensively like when Clare dodged the 6 armed AB's attack but the character still has to do something more than just sense something coming. That is why youki sensing works so well with other abilities, like the quicksword which enhances both offense and defense ability based on youki sensing information.

Every Claymore can sense youki. Every claymore has offensive and defensive capabilities. Some of their techniques are lopsided, but the can all defend and they can all attack. Some are just better at certain aspects than others, and that is the same for youki sensing as well. Jean, who has the most offensive sided technique we have seen, still defended against Rigardo when he attacked her; she just couldn't use her giga drill because she didn't have the time to wind it up (despite what the anime showed). Techniques have strengths and weaknesses to them as well.

Some Claymores have multiple techniques to make up for their weaknesses. Galatea's youki manipulation works wonders, but once its secret is discovered it is almost useless. She then switches to Youki Overload mode. Yuma seems to have some very offensive techniques from her last fight. I don't see why we have to classify techniques as offensive or defensive based on any assumptions. Many techniques are both.

[Newhope]

I think your over complicating the whole offensive and defensive claymore idea I think personally just comes down to the fact one type of claymore heals better than the other.

In the whole manga there is only 3 technique's that I can think of that can't be used both offensively and defensively those are jean's drillsword, Ophelia's Rippling Sword and Nina's Shadow Hunter which in my opinion are purely offensive skills, every other technique seen so far can be used as both for example Miria's phantom's can be used to dodge a attack or used to make a surpise attack or finishing move.

[Cyclone]

I am forcibly reminded of an old movie quote: "Guns don't kill people; I do!"

Offensive and defensive movements? Surely whether something is offensive or defensive is determined by it's purpose, not by the method. Claiming that purpose and method are inseperable is equivalent to saying that everyone who does A, thinks B. The criminal justice system would love to hear from you if have have a way to prove such assertions...

---

When does spoilers for Chapter 88 come out?

Not soon enough...

[Gangsta Spanksta]

And just because sensing enemy in order to attack make it defensive ?

You are taking words out of context. What makes sensing either defensive or offensive is the intent in which you use it in. If you use the information from radar in order to defend yourself then it is defense. If you use the information from radar in order to attack something for a non defensive purpose then it is offensive. I think you're just not getting the concept of intent here. If I were to go by the logic you are displaying here, then there would be no such concept as Self Defense. Now many people may claim Self Defense, but in an actual case of Self Defense, someone attacks -- often kills -- someone else to avoid death or harm. You are for some reason tying attacking to offense, when attacking can sometimes be a defensive action. Who says that defense is non-harmful to the perpetrator? This is the concept I think that you are having problems grasping. Defense can kill.

And missiles has absolutely something to do with the Claymore world ? :heh:

'twas a real world analogy to explain a concept in the argument. That is far different than bringing in D&D monks and Classes into the argument, because those are purely gaming concepts for a game that is meant to be more fun than realistic. We start talking D&D here ;) and I'll start having nightmares about how the knives in baulder gate would change direction and heat sink on me while I tried to dodge 'em. In more recent D&D games they had to relax on those unrealistic rules a bit to make dodging possible like in Neverwinter nights :d Arg! Why am I talking about D&D now. :(

Anyway, I'll skip responding to some of your message, where it is clear you are confusing attacking to offense, which I explained above already.


using radar/senses for to locate enemy and attack -> offensive
using radar to evade -> defensive

I love how you have a conjunction in your offensive example. In fact, that scenario can actually be split into two.

1) Using Radar to locate an unsuspecting enemy with intent to kill and attack --> Offensive
2) Using Radar to notice an attacking, hostile enemy with intent of protecting yourself and attacking to take out the threat --> Defensive


It's not the item/skill/technique that makes it defensive or offensive, the usage makes them defensive or offensive.

Again, explain self defense to me.

Anyway, let me end this message with another analogy to show that defense can kill to bluredvision. Anyway the concept is the Jellyfish. You're out in water at the beach and one brushes up on your leg and you get stung. You get hurt, and you most certainly didn't provoke anything. But do we say that, that is a jellyfish's natural offense? The same thing is true for a SAM site, it like the jellyfish attacks unwanted intruders -- in the SAM's case invaders.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

I'm with Awakened, sensing gives options: attack, defend, suppress your youki, run, taunt, etc...


I don't disagree with either of you two that much. As earlier pointed out, Irene Flash Sword can be used defensively too, for example the Ophelia incident. It is just that I think most cases we've seen in the Manga, Radar has been used as an early warning system when it comes to combat. We've yet to see Claymores use their radars to sneak up on an unsuspecting group of yoma. Usually, we see Yoma using their defense of shape shifting into humans, planning to strike the Claymore when they least expect it. Well I admit I maybe assuming a bit much there; I think when it is a bunch of Yoma, they'd probably attack, and if it is one they'd probably just use it to hide. But once the fighting begins with many yoki powered enemies it becomes more defensive, since they can't sneak up on you. BTW, running is defensive and taunting offensive. :D

[Gangsta Spanksta]

I think your over complicating the whole offensive and defensive claymore idea I think personally just comes down to the fact one type of claymore heals better than the other.

Well that's kind of my argument on claymore types -- they are confusingly named -- but one heals better and one gains a power boost. I just add to that, that I see no evidence that a defensive claymore fights defensively, or an offensive claymore doesn't have defensive abilities. I am saying there are three different concepts out there: 1) Claymore Type 2) Fighting Style 3) Capabilities Each of those has offensive and defensive classification and seem to be independent from each other. We've seen Clare use both offensive and defensive fighting styles. We've seen Clare use both offensive and defensive capabilities. Clare is an Offensive Type, which really means Power Boosted type. Really the Claymore type is a Capability that they gain when becoming Claymores. So you could get read of Claymore Type all together and just note which claymores are regenerators and which are power boosted.

In the whole manga there is only 3 technique's that I can think of that can't be used both offensively and defensively those are jean's drillsword, Ophelia's Rippling Sword and Nina's Shadow Hunter which in my opinion are purely offensive skills, every other technique seen so far can be used as both for example Miria's phantom's can be used to dodge a attack or used to make a surpise attack or finishing move.

I think the drill sword and rippling sword could be used defensively. I'm embarrassed to say that I forgot what exactly the shadow hunter was. So no comment there. :)

[Ryuken]

Not to start anything @G, but Clarice ran but then she came out of nowhere and almost got Agatha. So she used running as a diversion and also as a means to create and opening for an attack, using it defensively as well as offensively. Or am I getting this wrong?:confused::eyebrow:

[Gangsta Spanksta]

:D I can live with that. I suppose running at something to attack and gain momentum for the attack would also be offensive, as would be trampling someone you run over. Again, it has to do with intent, like the radar, or like me blowing someone head off with a gun. The purpose of Defense is to protect something. The purpose of Offense is to hurt something. Something hurting something to protect something else is a side effect. In fact, attacking an unsuspecting dictator could have the unintended effect of protecting the people he was about to slaughter, even if you don't care about those people.

[chibamonster]

... We've yet to see Claymores use their radars to sneak up on an unsuspecting group of yoma. Usually, we see Yoma using their defense of shape shifting into humans, planning to strike the Claymore when they least expect it. Well I admit I maybe assuming a bit much there; I think when it is a bunch of Yoma, they'd probably attack, and if it is one they'd probably just use it to hide. But once the fighting begins with many yoki powered enemies it becomes more defensive, since they can't sneak up on you. BTW, running is defensive and taunting offensive. :D

We are introduced to Teresa by her SLAUGHTERING unsuspecting youma, still in their human forms with the villagers just screaming thinking she is killing humans. That is the first time we see Teresa style youki sensing. She then taunts the ones she didn't kill outright. "Oh? Do you think you can use that girl as a shield?"

[PureYoki]

@ Awakened:

Just for clarification, when I say "yoki sensing", I mean "yoki sensing as used by Clare against Ophelia to anticipate opponent's moves". I think only claymores who are very skillful in yoki sensing can do it, like Clare, Galatea, Renee, Tabitha, etc. Every claymore has yoki sensing skills to some extent (which, by my definition, is not a classifiable technique at all), I'm talking about the enhanced version of this ability which lets you read your opponent's moves in combat.

@ chiba:

Many people think there's no need for a classification, whether we need a classification or not is a subject for another discussion. Yagi-sensei himself classified the claymores into two categories and as an extension to Yagi's classification, I believe some techniques are more suited to specific types of claymores. (like drill sword is more suited to offensive warriors) I said "if we classify techniques as defensive and offensive techniques, I would put enhanced yoki sensing in defensive category." If you have your own methods for classification, feel free to elaborate and we can discuss. But if you see no point in classifying the techniques, there's also no point in prolonging the discussion.

Some of us (including me) classified the techniques into two categories, defensive and offensive. Another member can classify the techniques into other categories based on his criteria. If I disagree with his classification, I can argue his criteria are flawed and reclassify the techniques into the categories he created. So if you (you as in all members) are against a classification, fine, classification is my personal choice, can we argue about someone's personal choices? But if you feel yoki sensing belongs to the other category, which makes it an offensive technique, don't hesitate to present your own classification criteria which explains why yoki sensing is indeed offensive.

[Awakened]

Question for you Pure Yoki.

If a missile is coming at you and you picked it up on your radar. You take no further action after you realized that the missile is coming.

Does that mean that you have defended yourself against the missile?

Did the radar defend you against the missile? (no weapon is attached to the missile)

[PureYoki]

Question for you Pure Yoki.

If a missile is coming at you and you picked it up on your radar. You take no further action after you realized that the missile is coming.

Does that mean that you have defended yourself against the missile?

Did the radar defend you against the missile? (no weapon is attached to the missile)

Radars are not my specialty, you need to ask the question to Gangsta Spanksta. :D Joking.

A radar (such as this (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/90/Radar_antenna.jpg/470px-Radar_antenna.jpg)) is just an instrument to help you defend yourself. Likewise a missile is mostly an instrument to help you attack your enemy. If I launch all my missiles to the ocean, they're of no use to me.

Techniques/instruments are the means to make our life easier in specific areas. A shield may help you defend yourself against a sword if you don't misuse it. A shield doesn't protect me if I drop it on the ground and expect it to act on its own.

[chibamonster]

@PureYoki: As I said,

@PureYoki: ... youki sensing itself does nothing but provide information for defense either. Sensing something does not protect you from it, as shown with Clare fighting Ophelia's Ripple sword. You still have to move, you still have to do something. In that sense, youki sensing is not an offensive technique or a defensive technique at all; it is just added information. It can be used offensively like Nina, or defensively like when Clare dodged the 6 armed AB's attack but the character still has to do something more than just sense something coming.
...

Youki sensing itself is inherently neither offensive or defensive, it is information that the character uses that is unavailable to others. Like having 20/5 vision (which air force pilots frequently do from their training). Offensive types use youki sensing and Defensive types use youki sensing. As Awakened said in his last post, sensing something does not protect you from an attack, you still have to move independent of the sensing. Youki sensing does not attack for you either like youki manipulation can. As Cyclone said, "Guns don't kill people. I do." Youki sensing doesn't block or kill. Clare does, usually with the quicksword/windcutter. Youki sensing immensely helps both aspects and lets her survive against and drop much more powerful opponents than anyone would expect.

There are absolutely techniques that can only be used by offensive or defensive types. Gigadrill is offensive. Stretchy arm is offensive. Deneve's healing is defensive. It is possible that Cynthia's healing youki manipulation is defensive as well (just a guess here). Quicksword and Windcutter has only been used by offensive types, though they are quite balanced.

If I had to venture a theory, I would say that offensive types are more likely to have a technique that changes their body to do something very very well. Miria for speed along with Noel, Sophia got strength, Irene and Flora's arms have quite a potential, Jean Ophelia and Helen can twist and stretch, etc. Instead of the youki forming in a claymores body to heal them, it seems to change the body in some other way that augments their power or speed.

Defensive types don't seem to be able to utilize their bodies as much for attacks. Deneve now swings two swords, but her body aids her with no techniques. Galatea's techniques are all based off her ability to control youki and while she can release more of it than any other claymore under their limit, we didn't see any special techniques presented from her body (though I will have to ask her next time we visit). Tabitha and Cynthia use youki sensing and healing. This theory is incomplete at the moment as Yuma had some very offensive looking techniques and she is definitely defensive. Renee also is apparently very fast. Though both these last bits are unconfirmed.

[PureYoki]

@ chiba:

"Guns don't kill people. I do." is absolute nonsense. Sure, it's a human who pulls the trigger but guns make it much more easier to kill people. The key point is to make much more easier. "Explosives don't kill people. I do." so what's the point in banning the use of explosives for common folk? (Also see my answer to Awakened's question.)

And if you agree with a classification and if you classify the techniques by body change, yoki sensing will still be a defensive technique. Am I missing something?

[Ryuken]

:D I can live with that. I suppose running at something to attack and gain momentum for the attack would also be offensive, as would be trampling someone you run over. Again, it has to do with intent, like the radar, or like me blowing someone head off with a gun. The purpose of Defense is to protect something. The purpose of Offense is to hurt something. Something hurting something to protect something else is a side effect. In fact, attacking an unsuspecting dictator could have the unintended effect of protecting the people he was about to slaughter, even if you don't care about those people.

Yes! I know what you mean @G, like in so many games, football, basketball....etc. You attack to score and defend, to keep the others from scoring, simple.:)

[Cyclone]

@ chiba:

"Guns don't kill people. I do." is absolute nonsense. Sure, it's a human who pulls the trigger but guns make it much more easier to kill people. The key point is to make much more easier. "Explosives don't kill people. I do." so what's the point in banning the use of explosives for common folk? (Also see my answer to Awakened's question.)

And if you agree with a classification and if you classify the techniques by body change, yoki sensing will still be a defensive technique. Am I missing something?

Well, it wasn't a particularly good movie (UHF I think it was called - starred Weird Al), but the scene was humorous (what followed was pointing a gun at the camera and end of transmission). Still it has a point. Guns, Explosives and the like are tools. Tools just do what they are designed to do - the intent is from the person using them. Sure explosives can be used to kill, but can also be used also for mining materials, excavating for building bomb shelters and protecting people against avalanches. Similarly, guns can be used to gain food, and protect private property. Items should not be defined solely by a few wacko terrorists and criminals who use them. Or are box cutters now going to be evil too?

Whether substances are dangerous or powerful enough to warrant having restrictions placed upon their distribution is another matter - a discussion more political than anything (and one I don't much care to get into at the moment) - but the item itself is just an inanimate object. It's a person who uses it for one purpose or another.

And also, just to slighly correct an earlier poster, I think it would be more acurate to describe offensive action as proactive action, while defensive action to be reactive action, rather than upon any notion of offensive/defensive being good or bad, or to kill or protect.

[Sleepy Speculator]

I think much of the issue is created because theirs no distinction between sensing and SENSING. Which is a rather anal way of putting it, because the YOKI SENSING TYPES, are just that much better, Nina chased yoki using sensing, but we don't know if she was SENSING, since she never mentions flows/frequencies etc.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

We are introduced to Teresa by her SLAUGHTERING unsuspecting youma, still in their human forms with the villagers just screaming thinking she is killing humans. That is the first time we see Teresa style youki sensing. She then taunts the ones she didn't kill outright. "Oh? Do you think you can use that girl as a shield?"

I did go on to say maybe I was assuming a bit much -- that I thought if it is a group of yoma that they would eventually use their shape shifting defense to ambush. Anyway, those yoma were not unsuspecting though, they knew a Claymore was in town, and at most the radar was used to surprise the first few that got slaughtered, and once the others new knew about the fighting the radar became more important defensively.

But like I said, I have never argued against you that the radar can be used offensively. My argument is that it is primarily a defensive weapon, meaning that is what it is used for more than not. If there are a lot of enemies, you can only surprise the first few in a surprise attack. But the radar seems to be something that is always on for Claymore. Just them sensing a yoma as they walk into town is defensive, because it removes the yoma from being a threat. An Early Warning System is always a defense. The mere fact that someone is unable to sneak up on you is risk avoidance.

On that note, and thinking about something people had said that I took for granted about all Claymore having sensing abilities, I just thought about the extra chapter where Clare and other young Claymore wannabes were told to fight in an abandoned town that had a yoma in it to kill them. At least there, it seems that they weren't able to sense the yoma, except for Clare. Maybe the test was to weed out the ones not good at sensing -- it being a very important trait to the org -- or maybe it is something a Claymore learns eventually to keep on at all times. It does seem like higher rank Claymores always have it on, but in that example, the ones it seem that were fighting for spot #47 didn't.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

@PureYoki: As I said,
Youki sensing itself is inherently neither offensive or defensive, it is information that the character uses that is unavailable to others. Like having 20/5 vision (which air force pilots frequently do from their training). Offensive types use youki sensing and Defensive types use youki sensing. As Awakened said in his last post, sensing something does not protect you from an attack, you still have to move independent of the sensing. Youki sensing does not attack for you either like youki manipulation can. As Cyclone said, "Guns don't kill people. I do." Youki sensing doesn't block or kill. Clare does, usually with the quicksword/windcutter. Youki sensing immensely helps both aspects and lets her survive against and drop much more powerful opponents than anyone would expect.


I have to disagree with that. Knowing the exact location of every single mine in a mine field is defensive. You are not going to naturally step on a mine then if you are a normal sane person then. Knowing the exact location of anyone who by their nature is likely to kill you is also defensive, because you are prepared when they get too close. If you have Radar naturally, then you have a natural defense in the form of an early warning system, just like your house may have a defense for you in a fire alarm or a burglar alarm. If someone goes postal at work, and you can sense exactly where they are, is that not a defense?

There are several definitions of defense that would apply, but let me use this one:

Defense - 3 a: means or method of defending or protecting oneself, one's team, or another (www.merriam-webster.com)
Means - 3 plural : resources available for disposal ; especially : material resources affording a secure life. (www.merriam-webster.com)

information on hostiles locations is an available resource; this resource does help to protect, thus it is defensive in nature. Simple.

So something defensive is not always just an action -- method, strike -- it can also be resource that are used to protect you -- intelligence on the the enemy. A Radar provides you with constant information, and when a yoki blip shows up on your radar, the natural reaction is to be wary and pay attention to that blip.

[PureYoki]

@ Cyclone:

If I were asked a question to put guns & explosives in either defensive or offensive category, I would choose offensive category. This is my point. I can choke my opponent with the edge of my shield but I still think shields are defensive.

I classified claymore techniques into two categories, so according to this categorization any technique should be either defensive or offensive. Arguing some techniques are neither defensive nor offensive doesn't make sense in the context of my classification because there's no third category. My assumption is that a technique is closer to either defensive side or offensive side and thus is classified under this category.

For example, if I want to, I can classify claymore techniques into two categories: red and blue techniques. If at least one user of the technique is or has ever been #1, it's a red technique, otherwise it's a blue technique. If you introduce a third category (which is yellow), it's not my classification any more because I didn't define this third category, you did. Now you have your own classification and it's irrelevant with mine.

My classification is based on the defensive and offensive claymore classification of Yagi-sensei. I made the classification to have a better insight of characteristics of different types. Sorry, but "every technique has offensive and defensive uses" doesn't give me any insight at all. I believe if Galatea had quick sword and Irene had excellent yoki sensing, IMO it would be less plausible in the context of the story, this is what I was trying to explore.

Anyway my mistake, I should have kept my mouth shut. I withdraw my classification, I hereby state there are no defensive or offensive techniques, the distribution of these techniques is completely random.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

@PureYoki:

You have a point, but it is best to leave the other possibilities open; that is why I've said mostly before. But I suppose better language would be: A shield is primarily defensive, blocking strikes for you, and it is secondarily offensive, in that on the rare occasion when you feel like choking an enemy with it you can. :D

That is why I say: Radar is primarily defensive, in case of Claymore, and secondarily offensive. For it to be offensive, the primary intent to cause harm must apply, maybe the initial surprise attack to a group of yomas that weren't going to attack. However, since a Radar seems to be constantly on and the intent to cause harm only applies to specific instances, the Radar is *not* primarily used offensively. On the other hand, the Radar does provides a constant means of defending yourself from a surprise attack.

Defense - 3 a: means or method of defending or protecting oneself, one's team, or another

Now the dictionaries do have Offense as the act of attacking, but I don't think that is specific enough, and not the direct opposoite of what Defense is above. However, if you use another definition where it uses the word assaulting instead of attacking, and assault is attacking with the intent of doing bodily harm. then:

Offense - means or method of attacking with the intent to cause harm.

The intent for the attack is what is important in my definitions of Defense and Offense and is what makes them opposites.

[PureYoki]

But I suppose better language would be: A shield is primarily defensive, blocking strikes for you, and it is secondarily offensive, in that on the rare occasion when you feel like choking an enemy with it you can. :D

That's right, you worded it much better. ;)

[Ryuken]

@PureYoki: But I suppose better language would be: A shield is primarily defensive, blocking strikes for you, and it is secondarily offensive, in that on the rare occasion when you feel like choking an enemy with it you can. :D

In other words a shield is not the most ideal weapon for offense, although you can take a swap at the enemy with it from time to time. It is like in the med evil times when most worriers would use a sword and a shield. One would attack with the sword and the other would block with the shield. But the first person who attacked is now himself open for an attack. So the second guy would now attack and the first guy would have to defend with his shield.:)

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Yup, also a shield could have a spike at the center, which you push forward to stab an enemy in close range. It could have sharp sides, and I suppose in that case you could throw it. although, I don't know if it has ever really been used effectively like that in real live, instead of fiction.

And another example would be the pike, which, while classified as a weapon, is primarily used for defense against mounted troops. Like its cousin the spear, I suppose you could throw it at the enemy, or try to run it through someone, but usually it is used to protect the troops behind you from a charge. You simply kneel down and point the pike diagonally, and let those charging run into the wall of pointy things.

[Awakened]

Radars are not my specialty, you need to ask the question to Gangsta Spanksta. :D Joking.

A radar (such as this (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/90/Radar_antenna.jpg/470px-Radar_antenna.jpg)) is just an instrument to help you defend yourself. Likewise a missile is mostly an instrument to help you attack your enemy. If I launch all my missiles to the ocean, they're of no use to me.

Techniques/instruments are the means to make our life easier in specific areas. A shield may help you defend yourself against a sword if you don't misuse it. A shield doesn't protect me if I drop it on the ground and expect it to act on its own.

Question for you Pure Yoki.

If a missile is coming at you and you picked it up on your radar. You take no further action after you realized that the missile is coming.

Does that mean that you have defended yourself against the missile?

Did the radar defend you against the missile? (no weapon is attached to the missile)

I noticed you did not answer the question, but thats ok.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

I think he answered by pointed out that a missile -- by saying: Likewise a missile is mostly an instrument to help you attack your enemy -- is just as much a resource as a radar is. Several dictionaries define defense as both means and method, and means can be defined as resources, such as radar and missiles. What I think the point is: In that case, you've failed to use your defense effectively. An example of this is: you are being hunted, and you see your hunters positions in your natural radar senses; they have no way of sensing you, and you have the ability to walk away by going left, when they are approaching you from behind, instead you turn around and walk towards then; in that case, you failed to use the means you had available to you; you worked against your own defenses.

[Sleepy Speculator]

The problem with that idea is the pike is used just as often against opposing infantry in a pike hedge to pike hedge push as it defending against cavalry. The very concept of how that's used in warfare goes all the way back to the greek phalanx (spears), and the macedonian use of longer spears (pikes of sorts, i don't remember the name) with their shields slung on shoulders, i believe so they can wield the heavier longer spears with both hands and use the advantage of reach.

A better example would be fighting with a bow as a improptu stave/staff in close quarters in order for an archer to defend themselves, when they are primarily used as ranged weapons. Which is a poor but desperate choice of defence. The bow primarily being an offensive weapon, and originally a hunting tool. Though often employed in conjunction with static defence, the archer as a unit is in fact rather defenceless, which is why english archers would deploy spiked stakes as a counter measure to the french cavalry before many crushing battles in the 100 years war.

The thing i wanted to add about Teresa was she knew how to suppress her yoki aura, rarely used it and apart from looking like a claymore, may not really have showed up much on radar. Basically Teresa not only homed in on yoma (as chiba argues offensively), but was a non presence on their radar, she surprised them, this is no differenct from *any* claymore doing their job, the difference was her power level compared to the protaginist who we see do this, Clare, and the fact that Teresa could surprise them by masking her own aura which Clare hasn't done till recently. Though in Clare's example it was Agatha who had the wtf moment.

[PureYoki]

I noticed you did not answer the question, but thats ok.

The answer of the question was indirectly expressed in my post but let me elaborate:

If you ignore the radar, it can't/won't defend you as in your example. If you misguide a missile on purpose, it won't hit the target. If you throw your shield/sword/pike away, it can't help you in combat. But I see a difference between radars, shields, swords, pikes, etc. because I always assume they are used properly. If not used properly, in war there is no difference between a H-Bomb and a teddy bear! I hope your question is answered.

[Awakened]

The answer of the question was indirectly expressed in my post but let me elaborate:

If you ignore the radar, it can't/won't defend you as in your example. If you misguide a missile on purpose, it won't hit the target. If you throw your shield/sword/pike away, it can't help you in combat. But I see a difference between radars, shields, swords, pikes, etc. because I always assume they are used properly. If not used properly, in war there is no difference between a H-Bomb and a teddy bear! I hope your question is answered.

Not really, I was looking for a simple answer. Yes the radar defended you, or no it did not defend you (withing all the constraints that I added). If radar/sensing its a defensive weapon, then it should be able to do something.

I don't think we are going to change our mind, so its ok.

[Awakened]

Defense - 3 a: means or method of defending or protecting oneself, one's team, or another (www.merriam-webster.com)
Means - 3 plural : resources available for disposal ; especially : material resources affording a secure life. (www.merriam-webster.com)

information on hostiles locations is an available resource; this resource does help to protect, thus it is defensive in nature. Simple.


I noticed you left out a very important part of the definition. "resource available for disposal" there is an action that needs to be taken, the resource by them self is not a definition for defense.

[PureYoki]

Not really, I was looking for a simple answer. Yes the radar defended you, or no it did not defend you (withing all the constraints that I added). If radar/sensing its a defensive weapon, then it should be able to do something.

No, it didn't defend you BECAUSE (this part is important) you ignored it. This is the simplest answer.

A radar can't defend you by itself because it doesn't have a mind, a radar can't reason, take action and come to help you. Neither can a sword, a shield or a H-Bomb. A fire-alarm is a safety measure, right? If I ignore the alert, would it prove it's not a safety measure at all? Sorry, I don't see your point.

[Awakened]

No, it didn't defend you BECAUSE (this part is important) you ignored it. This is the simplest answer.

A radar can't defend you by itself because it doesn't have a mind, a radar can't reason, take action and come to help you. Neither can a sword, a shield or a H-Bomb. A fire-alarm is a safety measure, right? If I ignore the alert, would it prove it's not a safety measure at all? Sorry, I don't see your point.

I like your answer.:D
It can't defend you, so is it a defensive weapon or is it information that helps you defend yourself?

Simple answers are best.
"The shorter the answer the better'" Ruble.:D
I made that up.:D

[PureYoki]

It can't defend you, so is it a defensive weapon or is it information that helps you defend yourself?

Information.

Is the answer simple enough? :D

The information buys you time to prepare yourself against an attack.

A weapon is more like something that can actually do damage. You might call a S.A.M. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface-to-Air_Missile) a defensive weapon.

[Sleepy Speculator]

If it helps since this conversation is about senses, maybe i can help with an example of one of the senses which is sight...

Now it is noticeable on mammals that there are two types of mammal based on what they eat, herbivores and carnivores, a third type exists omnivores but they either scavenge for edible flesh or hunt in the manner of carnivores to supplement their diet, the fact remains it is either animal flesh or plant material that they are eating. The herbivore being lower in the food chain has an increased need to spot hunting carnivores, and so tends to have an increased peripheral vision, as opposed to hunting carnivores which have a vision focused forwards. The single sense in the same phenotype? (brachiotype? can't remember the word) is visually different between it's use for offense (hunting) to defense (peripheral warning). This is why rabbits eyes, and cows eyes are almost on the side of the head, compared to cats and humans which have vision forward facing with less peripheral warning.

Does this mean any less that humans can't spot danger? not at all only that they can't spot it the way a rabbit spots a bird of prey in an extended peripheral field of vision. The vision of humans being locked forward for hunting puposes, precludes that ability. But a human can sweep their vision from side to side using the neck, and as a species has hunted to extinction nearly every other large predator it's come into contact with. (offense as defense)

If a rabbit was just a head with eyes however it would soon be eaten because it had no means of motion, it has to have instinct enough to run when it spots a moving shadow in it's peripheral vision, and this happens often enough that those that are best at it survive hunting hawks etc, whereas those that don't end up as food. Similarly hunting humans that lack overlapping eyesight for depth perception are more likely to fail in judging how far to throw a spear, shoot an arrow etc and henceforth would go hungry where other hunters wouldn't.

[Awakened]

Gangsta Spanksta lets pretend that you are one of those multi billionaire, You use your resources to buy a dog to keep people from getting close to your car, for occasions when you feel like letting the rest of us be in your presence. The dog (your resource) will attack any one that gets to close to your custom made billion dollar car.
In that scenario, you did not take any action, but your dog (your resource) had the ability to act on it's own.

People that would never be able to make as much money as you keep coming by your gate to look at your house. The problem is, they keep picking your imported flowers, that cost more than the cloth that they are wearing. You decide to install some sensors (your resource) to defend you flowers from all those unwanted visitors. My question to you is, will your flowers be defended? You don't have to answer if you don't want too.

My point is, information is not a defense, action needs to be taken. A bunker is a defensive structure, but you need to get inside of it for it to protect you.

[Awakened]

Information.

Is the answer simple enough? :D

The information buys you time to prepare yourself against an attack.

A weapon is more like something that can actually do damage. You might call a S.A.M. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface-to-Air_Missile) a defensive weapon.

Did you just say that sensing is information and not a defensive weapon?

A S.A.M has missiles and sensors, a F22 (Raptor) has missiles and sensors, The sensors doe not make them offensive or defensive weapons. What make the S.A.M or the F22 offensive or defensive is the way they are used. A S.A.M without sensors can still defend if someone is manning the missiles. Sensors only make it easier to defend or attack. Sensing give you information (according to you). What you do with the information is up to you, it's not up to the information.:D

[PureYoki]

@ Awakened:

See my answer (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=2174944&postcount=700) to Cyclone, especially the last paragraph.

[Awakened]

@ Awakened:

See my answer (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=2174944&postcount=700) to Cyclone, especially the last paragraph.

I don't disagree with you about a technique been more defensive our offensive. The disagreement is, can information be classified as offensive or defensive information.

[PureYoki]

I don't disagree with you about a technique been more defensive our offensive. The disagreement is, can information be classified as offensive or defensive information.

If this information is mostly used to anticipate opponent's moves and block attacks, I think it can be considered defensive.

What would your answer be if you have to make a choice between these two: defensive or offensive.

[Awakened]

If this information is mostly used to anticipate opponent's moves and block attacks, I think it can be considered defensive.

What would your answer be if you have to make a choice between these two: defensive or offensive.

If I only had the choice between defensive and offensive, I would say defensive.

But I see it as neutral, the action taken after the information is received would be offensive or defensive.

You have numerous options available to you after you receive the information. You can chose to do noting or take defensive action. Even if all your possible responses are considered defensive, the information itself is not a defense.

[chibamonster]

@ chiba:

"Guns don't kill people. I do." is absolute nonsense. Sure, it's a human who pulls the trigger but guns make it much more easier to kill people. The key point is to make much more easier. "Explosives don't kill people. I do." so what's the point in banning the use of explosives for common folk? (Also see my answer to Awakened's question.)

And if you agree with a classification and if you classify the techniques by body change, yoki sensing will still be a defensive technique. Am I missing something?

I am solidly with Cyclone on this one. Though once again, as Cyclone said, it is a political debate more than anything else. Of course we see in Claymore that a little girl like Priscilla can kill a youma before she ever becomes a claymore. Well, unless she hallucinated that story...

The reason I put forward the alternate theory is because jamming every technique into a black and white offensive defensive technique makes no sense to me. Instead what I was looking at is, what is the effect of a Claymore being offensive or defensive? Defensive Claymores heal better, but from what I have seen they lack the body enhancements/change that Offensive Claymores get. It is just a theory, which Yuma and Renee could destroy, but it seems to fit much more than saying every technique is black or white. Every claymore can sense youki. The trainees who are unable to do so never become claymores. Some just excel at it. Every Claymore can attack and defend, but they do it in different ways based on how their youki has manifested in their body. Miria and Clare both defend themselves, but do it in very different ways. Deneve and Galatea attack, and they do it in different ways.

Youki manifests itself differently in every claymore, though we do find similarities like Jean and Helen. Techniques utilize this individuality for battle. Miria had to work to find a way to use her speed as Hilda advised her to. There are definite differences between offensive and defensive types, I just think the differences don't universally apply to techniques.

I prefer to use the information present in the manga to try to figure out what Yagi is doing behind the scenes as opposed to creating arbitrary classifications.

[PureYoki]

I am solidly with Cyclone on this one. Though once again, as Cyclone said, it is a political debate more than anything else. Of course we see in Claymore that a little girl like Priscilla can kill a youma before she ever becomes a claymore. Well, unless she hallucinated that story...

I concede. A gun can be used for defensive or offensive purposes so you're right, it's far-fetched to call a gun an offensive weapon, it's neutral like a teddy bear. For example Rio Ferdinand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_Ferdinand) is not a defender because he sometimes scores goals, he's neutral, we shouldn't categorize soccer players as defender or attacker, they all defend or attack. I was totally wrong, what was I thinking?

I prefer to use the information present in the manga to try to figure out what Yagi is doing behind the scenes as opposed to creating arbitrary classifications.

Merely repeating information which is present in the manga is boring, constructing theories based on our information from the manga is entertaining. We all get questions and new questions from the manga but we rarely get answers. Actually I just realized we know almost nothing, most of the information from the manga is speculation of the manga characters. So I don't understand what is wrong in trying to find our own answers until Yagi-sensei confirms or invalidates them.

[Korinov]

For example Rio Ferdinand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_Ferdinand) is not a defender because he sometimes scores goals, he's neutral, we shouldn't categorize soccer players as defender or attacker, they all defend or attack. I was totally wrong, what was I thinking?


:topicoff:

Rio Ferdinand isn't neither a defender nor an attacker. He's just awful :)

About the offensive/deffensive techniques/moves, I think the kind of type each Claymore is depends more on the use she gives to her techniques than the mere techniques themselves. But I'd also say that extremely crushing and devastating moves (like windcutter/quicksword or Helen's drill) are territory of offensive types. As we have seen for now, defensive claymores usually rely on more 'sutile' and 'lighter' moves.

As for Teresa (it's a mantra that every discussion about claymoverse ends up taking Teresa to the scene, sooner or later; this is worse than Godwin Law) we weren't never shown about her regenerative abilities, but being a #1 without any specific offensive move (and relying most on her impressive yoki-reading skills) induces me to believe she was a defensive type.

[chibamonster]

@PureYoki: Meh, I don't want to get into a politlcal debate on this site. Not worth it. I am here for the claymore. In Claymore they do not carry guns or shields; they carry swords. Their armor is almost completely useless. The ghosts have gotten rid of any metal armor completely, at least from what we have seen. In the world of Claymore the sword is both their offense and their defense. So ignore the gun comments and replace them with swords for Claymore. A sword is a tool; offensive and defensive. Claymores kill with them and without them.

Repeating information is boring. Analyzing information is not. Claymore is consistent like no manga I have read before. So analyzing information and patterns can give you accurate speculations. It can also show you deeper things that occured in the story that are not present until you know more. For instance, Teresa was abrasive when you meet her, but is that her true personality? By being abrasive she actually saves human lives. Some people only look at the surface and they miss the real character development going on in this fantastic story.


For example, if I want to, I can classify claymore techniques into two categories: red and blue techniques. If at least one user of the technique is or has ever been #1, it's a red technique, otherwise it's a blue technique. If you introduce a third category (which is yellow), it's not my classification any more because I didn't define this third category, you did. Now you have your own classification and it's irrelevant with mine.

Putting things into arbitrary classifications that are just "mine" is not interesting to me. It does not make the story more engaging. It does not help me relate to the characters. It is like I am making a theoretical statistic sheet where we make up rules as we go. There are so many aspects of claymore that we can analyze that are interesting, like Galatea and the religion of Rabona. She still is a nun and they are allowing her to stay one. It is not just a cover at this point. She wants to do it. She loves the kids and they love her. This is some immensely interesting character development for both Galatea and Rabona, especially from a place that did not allow anything impure in it a little more than 7 years ago. Analyzing the information that is present gives us some incredibly personal character development and makes the story more real to us.

You are ignoring my theory here also, and I think it has some definite relevance to the story. Defensive types do not show the body enhancements that offensive types do. At the moment Renee and Yuma are my questionable areas for the theory. There seems to be a pattern present though.

[PureYoki]

Meh, I don't want to get into a politlcal debate on this site. Not worth it. I am here for the claymore. In Claymore they do not carry guns or shields; they carry swords. Their armor is almost completely useless.

Guns, radars, shields were just analogies for claymore techniques but you're right, it doesn't matter any more.

Repeating information is boring. Analyzing information is not. Claymore is consistent like no manga I have read before. So analyzing information and patterns can give you accurate speculations. It can also show you deeper things that occured in the story that are not present until you know more. For instance, Teresa was abrasive when you meet her, but is that her true personality? By being abrasive she actually saves human lives. Some people only look at the surface and they miss the real character development going on in this fantastic story.

Putting things into arbitrary classifications that are just "mine" is not interesting to me. It does not make the story more engaging. It does not help me relate to the characters. It is like I am making a theoretical statistic sheet where we make up rules as we go. There are so many aspects of claymore that we can analyze that are interesting, like Galatea and the religion of Rabona.

You're more interested in personalities of the characters, I'm more interested in mechanics of the claymore world. (Off topic question, are you a fan of astrology? Just curious. :) ) Claymore characters are very realistic, they aren't perfect, they aren't one-dimensional, actually they are very complex but I can't develop any theories based on Teresa's abrasiveness or Galatea's newfound life.

Sometimes in order to construct new theories, you have to define new concepts like red or blue techniques. After you create the logic behind them, it's much more convenient to lay out the information in hand and mold it into appropriate shape. It makes everything very understandable. This is scientific method.

You are ignoring my theory here also, and I think it has some definite relevance to the story. Defensive types do not show the body enhancements that offensive types do. At the moment Renee and Yuma are my questionable areas for the theory. There seems to be a pattern present though.

I didn't ignore your theory, I actually used it to support my own theory about defensive and offensive techniques. (a classification based on body enhancements) Since I discarded my own theory, I don't know what to do with your theory.

[Cyclone]

Anyway my mistake, I should have kept my mouth shut. I withdraw my classification, I hereby state there are no defensive or offensive techniques, the distribution of these techniques is completely random.

You have done the right thing.
I graciously and magnanimously accept your humble apology.
To aid your repentence, I will, of course, frequently remind you of your mistake. :p

[iLney]

@Chiba:

Those mice are green but what can guarantee that they like cheese?!!

[Gangsta Spanksta]

I noticed you left out a very important part of the definition. "resource available for disposal" there is an action that needs to be taken, the resource by them self is not a definition for defense.

:) you yourself are leaving out an important part of the definition then. "resource Available for disposal"

disposal - noun - 1. the power to use something or someone. (dictionary.com)

So, in other words resources available for use. I don't see the problem here. The "available for" just says they can be used not that they ever will be. In fact, the "available for" is very important when describing one of the best defenses of the previous century. Nuclear Weapons are a resource that is available for use, and haven't been used since WWII; it is what we call a Deterrent. So there you have it, a concept of a defense that is unlikely to ever be used by non-rogue states. We do have a lot more crazies out there now than before, so it maybe used one day, again.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Gangsta Spanksta lets pretend that you are one of those multi billionaire, You use your resources to buy a dog to keep people from getting close to your car, for occasions when you feel like letting the rest of us be in your presence. The dog (your resource) will attack any one that gets to close to your custom made billion dollar car.
In that scenario, you did not take any action, but your dog (your resource) had the ability to act on it's own.

People that would never be able to make as much money as you keep coming by your gate to look at your house. The problem is, they keep picking your imported flowers, that cost more than the cloth that they are wearing. You decide to install some sensors (your resource) to defend you flowers from all those unwanted visitors. My question to you is, will your flowers be defended? You don't have to answer if you don't want too.

My point is, information is not a defense, action needs to be taken. A bunker is a defensive structure, but you need to get inside of it for it to protect you.

yeah they will. Those flower picking bastards will all be cut down by the lasers that are activated by the sensors. :p But honestly, why don't you think an early warning system is not a defense? It is as if you are saying that there is no such concept as an early warning system. If my fire alarm goes off and I go oh well seems to be a fire in the house and continue watching TV, then that's me not using my Defenses properly. All this stuff you are using to disprove Defense, can also be used to disprove Offense, which was something PureYoki was trying to hint at you. If Irene gets attacked by yomas, and she uses quick sword to sculpt an ice statue instead of fighting, does that make Quick Sword not something offensive? :) I mean we can play that silly game both ways. I think that was what PureYoki was trying to show you, that doing so just doesn't make much sense.

[chibamonster]

@PureYoki: The way I see it, personality is the mechanics of the claymore world, especially in the case of offensive and defensive types :D. Personality is what determines if a Claymore is offensive or defensive in the first place. I think the mechanics of the claymore world also have lots of information available from the story itself as well. Much of the information in Claymore is presented visually in the art, especially when it comes to techniques. People are less likely to trust artistic visual information as we are used to having things verbally explained to us. This does not mean visual information is less trustworthy, just not as often analyzed. Just check out the movie Baraka (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYZ8RWqqicQ) if you want to see a visual presentation that offers no verbal explanation of the experience it provides.

I do not know much about astrology, though I have some friends that are very into it. <RANT> I am not really a fan of the scientific method, which is probably strange for most people as some look at it as almost a religion. I appreciate what it is and what it has done in some fields. I like it in its purest form. I just feel it is a stick used by lesser "scientific minds" to swat things that are promising and challenging to conventional scientific thought. Politics and business are as much a part of science as any other method or madness. Often true 'scientific' results are suppressed if they conflict with popular theories of ones time. My favorite scientists were not burdened by chains of the scientific method in their approach, and were looked at as strangers and threats to the scientific community, no matter how accurate they were. I love science. I just think it is hilarious that almost anything can be proven with enough funding. It reminds me of the movie Thank You For Smoking where Big Tobacco employs a scientist who has had inconclusive research on cigarettes for 30 years, "The guy is a genius. He could disprove gravity." </RANT>

BARAKA TRAILER
dYZ8RWqqicQ

@iLney: You're right. Some studies show that mice don't like cheese. But I'm pretty sure Japanese genetically engineered green mice do. Just a rumor. I guess maybe a better and more accurate answer would be Penicillium digitatum or penicillium camembertii molds (the second of which definitely grows on cheese and can be green though it is usually a lighter color). So I'll just hedge my bets and say there is a green Penicillum mold that likes cheese :D.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

@PureYoki: The way I see it, personality is the mechanics of the claymore world, especially in the case of offensive and defensive types :D. Personality is what determines if a Claymore is offensive or defensive in the first place. I think the mechanics of the claymore world also have lots of information available from the story itself as well. Much of the information in Claymore is presented visually in the art, especially when it comes to techniques. People are less likely to trust artistic visual information as we are used to having things verbally explained to us. This does not mean visual information is less trustworthy, just not as often analyzed. Just check out the movie Baraka (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYZ8RWqqicQ) if you want to see a visual presentation that offers no verbal explanation of the experience it provides.

I still just think that the typing for Defensive and Offensive Claymore badly named, because without some brain washing, if that was strictly it, it doesn't make sense. What if you have a human, who has a defensive fighting style, and has some very special offensive abilities. There we already have two different concepts that are both offensive and defensive. So, if this person is faced with a yoma in a life or death struggle, and he would fight rather than self preserve, despite his use of defensive fighting, then he would obviously become an Offensive claymore. So unless all three concepts are not linked to each other, the should stay independent. I know that there seem to be some changes mentally when one becomes a claymore, a bit less drastic than becoming an AB, but would someone really change their fighting style from Defensive to Offensive just because they are a Offensive Claymore? That bit about fighting or self preservation is just one aspect that effects what type of claymore you become. So far it seems to be linked to regeneration vs. power boost. But can't other factors of your personality effect what kind of offensive and defensive capabilities you get? You look at the Duffster and you see him have both defensive and offensive traits. He has that armored skin for one, but he also has a range weapon with those rods he spits out. That somewhat contradicts the notion that defensive claymores only gets defensive abilities. I say there is more to it than what decides if you are a regenerator or a power-boosted claymore.

[chibamonster]

@Gangsta Spanksta: Offensive and Defensive type claymores is not about their fighting style, as you mentioned. It is about the manifestation of the youki within them. Defensive Claymores can heal much better than Offensive types. Both types heal much better than humans. Both types attack much better than humans, though Raki did put on quite the show. All Claymores have offense and defense, as do all AB's. You are right that youki manifests itself in different ways. It just seems to me that while defensive types get youki that heals their bodies, or in Cynthia's case the bodies of others, offensive claymores are more likely to have youki that augments or fundamentally changes the nature of their bodies. Sometimes that change in the offensive Claymore has defensive benefits, like Ophelia surviving a broken neck.

Galatea and Deneve are very offensive in their fighting style as are Clare and Helen. Miria fights very defensively as her technique when used rapidly depletes her reserves (not so much post time skip). Audrey fights in a defensive style as well, luring her opponents in and using their strength against them. I think most techniques have both offensive and defensive benefits for style, hence my saying that dividing all techniques into one or the other was pointless. Looking at what benefits being offensive gives though is quite interesting to me. Clare knew from how powerful Irene was that she was Offensive. Interesting.

Awakening is a different beast, and I agree with you that there are many other factors of a characters personality that will effect them both as Claymores and Awakened Beings. That is my basic theory on youki interacting with Claymores. Duff's defense is his armor, helped by the fact he can attack at a distance which very few AB's can; he is huge but slow and relatively dumb. He has never even stood up, which I am waiting for. The 6 armed AB used regeneration as a defense. Riful can split her body and is hard to cut. Rigardo's defense and offense is being super fast and being pretty good at sensing youki for locations; miria couldn't sneak up on him and he picked out the top claymores by strength order perfectly matched to their rank. He and Isley failed to see Priscilla's power, but so far only 3 characters have realized it straight out (Irene, Teresa, Riful). The Abyssals seem to have everything; speed, tough skin, strength and intelligence.

Awakening is very interesting to me as it provides such varied results in form and function. The Youki Manipulator AB barely moves during his fight, but since he has access to more youki than Galatea for manipulation he can really mess with Claymores. Even incredibly offensive type AB's can still regenerate full limbs; it just takes a long time (unless you are Priscilla). Duff has his hands back and Isley has his arm back. So Awakened beings, whether offensive or defensive, have the ability to regenerate full power limbs, which apparently is not the case for Claymores from what we have heard. I love the awakened being designs in Claymore as they have so much personality to them and are actually quite beautiful.

[PureYoki]

Much of the information in Claymore is presented visually in the art, especially when it comes to techniques. People are less likely to trust artistic visual information as we are used to having things verbally explained to us. This does not mean visual information is less trustworthy, just not as often analyzed.

On the contrary, I and (I believe) most of us attempt to use every piece of information from the story, visual or verbal because I think very little information was presented to us. For example, I, Sleepy Speculator and Gangsta Spanksta talked about Miria's facial expression when judging her offensive character. If you remember, we even had a discussion about sweat in claymores once but you said I was overanalyzing details or something to that effect.

When I classified techniques as defensive and offensive techniques, people accused me of oversimplifying the concept. I actually used the information from the story to make a classification because Yagi-sensei himself classified claymores as defensive and offensive types based on their personality. A personality is much more complicated than a technique but yet it's perfectly acceptable to classify personalities into only two categories! Do you see the dilemma here?!

I do not know much about astrology, though I have some friends that are very into it.

This is not a criticism, it's your style but when I read your posts, I find very little information about your opinions, even in the unusually long posts. You say how personality defines your type, how every claymore can sense yoki, how defensive claymores heal better, but we already know these things because every one of us reads claymore. I'm more interested in the conclusions drawn from this piece of information.

Even in this defense-offense issue, there are lots, I mean lots of unknowns: When and how is your type decided, what if your personality changes, can your type change, can offensive ones regenerate if they awaken and come back, can a defensive claymore learn quick sword, do defensive ones have less yoki on average, how can a claymore know her type if she's never lost a limb, how did Riful understand Renee is defensive, and so on.

I just think it is hilarious that almost anything can be proven with enough funding.

How much do I need to prove there are defensive and offensive techniques? :D

Some so-called scientists may misuse science, twist facts for their own interest but the usefulness of science (and thus scientific method) much overweighs a couple of nuisances. There are almost always opposing views from other scientists, if you are in doubt, use your common sense: Ignore the fools who say tobacco isn't harmful to health and move on. :D

[PureYoki]

He and Isley failed to see Priscilla's power, but so far only 3 characters have realized it straight out (Irene, Teresa, Riful).

One of the mysteries not yet explained: How did Irene understand Priscilla was that strong with only one look? How did she find out the true strength of Rafaela who was also completely suppressed?

Teresa understood Priscilla's strength during the fight, I wouldn't say "straight out".

And Riful has no idea whether Raciella is a demon or a snake, whereas Renee estimated she's at least as strong as Riful. It's quite obvious Riful had no way to know the true strength of Priscilla who is a natural suppressor.

[Awakened]

yeah they will. Those flower picking bastards will all be cut down by the lasers that are activated by the sensors. :p But honestly, why don't you think an early warning system is not a defense? It is as if you are saying that there is no such concept as an early warning system. If my fire alarm goes off and I go oh well seems to be a fire in the house and continue watching TV, then that's me not using my Defenses properly. All this stuff you are using to disprove Defense, can also be used to disprove Offense, which was something PureYoki was trying to hint at you. If Irene gets attacked by yomas, and she uses quick sword to sculpt an ice statue instead of fighting, does that make Quick Sword not something offensive? :) I mean we can play that silly game both ways. I think that was what PureYoki was trying to show you, that doing so just doesn't make much sense.

I had given up on the argument, but let me clarify my position.

I said it many times, sensing is not an offense or a defense it's information. What you do with the information is up to you.

It's a tool that help you make your decision at an earlier time than normally possible. A fire alarm is no a defense, you said it yourself, you actually have to get out of your room.

Fire alarm goes off:
Gangsta: My fire defense has just been activated, there is no way fire can burn me now.

Fire alarm goes off:
Gangsta: My early warning system has been activated, I need to take defensive action in other to survive.

Let me try to summarize your position.
Because you have advance information on an incoming treat, that make the information a defense, because it helps you take defensive action.

If you read that statement carefully you will notice that there are two parts. One is receiving information the other is acting on the information. If you only receive information but take no action when action is needed you will not be protected.

Let say you are ready to take on the world, you stack up on the latest in weaponry that you can afford. You then twist some arms to get your hand on a radar. The government realized that you are a treat, not wanting to risk the lives of police officers (after a short gun battle) they decide to call in an Apache helicopter to blow up your house. Your radar goes off, you look at it and realized that an Apache helicopter has just fired 10 missiles at your location.

In that scenario, was your radar a defense?

What if you had a gravity shield to protect you after your radar goes off. Is the radar your defense or is your gravity shield your defense?

In your nuclear war scenario, there was actual nuclear weapons ready to be lanced. No one was hiding behind a radar to save them.

Let me just say it one more time.
Information is not a defense or an offense the action taken after the information is received is the defense or offense.

A shield can be use for offense or defense for the same reason. You receive information though your senses that you are about to be hit from the right side. You then use your shield to block it. After you block the attack you see an opening to strike your enemy with your shield. The information did not attack or protect you. You had to act on that information.

[Sleepy Speculator]

@ chiba

please be careful, it seems that you don't like induction as a method of analysis

I prefer to use the information present in the manga to try to figure out what Yagi is doing behind the scenes as opposed to creating arbitrary classifications.

as i have shown the classification isn't arbitrary as the claymores themselves use the terminology to describe themselves (and they seldom refer to themselves as claymores but soldiers, claymores being an outside terminology in the story). So it's an integral part of the story put there by Yagi unless top digits like Galatea and Ophelia were mistaken and brainwashed despite being rebellious to the point that one deserved to be purged and the other was just waiting for the missions to get too difficult.

Galatea even 7 years after deserting to Cynthia "oh using yoki to help me recover and regenerate but it's too bad i'm a defensive type i can regenerate on my own"

Induction may be faulty in the whole white swan, all swans are white until one comes along that's black type way, but it's also what observation is based on.

Without recourse to the wonderful databooks, i based the assumption that all YOKI SENSING TYPES that's the really good yoki sensors as opposed to regular radar type users, were shown to be defensive, therefore a causal link between the two. I'll discredit Clare because she's not actually a 'soldier'. And this would require the inductive logic amendment which is why science becomes very pedantic and we end up using words like primarily to describe trends.

Galaea, Renee, Cynthia, Tabitha all SENSING TYPES all warriors capable of being an 'eye', and all defensive warriors displayed by information in the manga. Now Riful is happy to get hold of Renee and jumps to a conclusion that she's a defensive warrior and can regenerate (which is confirmed), with the only other information she knows about her being that she's a high digit sensing type. (Unless she can sense types, which even Ophelia could do). This reinforces the causal link that SENSING TYPE = defensive warrior.

Now to go onto the "two" exceptions
1. Teresa was never revealed in the manga and we constantly refer to her as offensive because that's what the databooks said so, even though it's from the org's pov and can be rather inaccurate
2. Clare 'inherited' and did not really develop SENSING, though she had been practicing her sensing, N.B. that Helen shouldn't be able to extend her limbs, and Deneve shouldn't be able to super regenerate, they are inherited abilities from their yoma donor, that they gained from half awakening, and Clare's donor is Teresa of course.

So if Clare inherited an exclusively defensive ability what does that 'imply' through induction that Teresa was? By which i mean an ability owned only by defensive warriors, i'm not even gonna bother pointing out again how it's defensive.

Though this post may help explain abit more
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=2175380&postcount=714
(the example used is sight which is ironic since these claymores are referred to as 'eyes')

@korinov

yes it's suprising but he is a 'defender', however i'm glad you say induces and not deduces (shakes fist at arthur conan doyle)

[Awakened]

Sleepy it's possible that most sensing Claymores are defensive, but the problem with calling Teresa a defensive Claymore is Clare.

If Clare did not have a chose in what kind of warrior she becomes (defensive or offensive) then she should have inherited Teresa's regenerative abilities. Clare tried to regenerate, but could not. Clare has not fully developed yet, so it might be possible for her to unlock her regenerative ability. At this point in the story all the evidence point to Teresa as Offensive. She killed a #1 Ab by herself, without much effort.

Am not sure is Priscilla is defensive. If Priscilla is defensive then you can make a case for a warrior as powerful as Teresa to be a defensive warrior.

Edit: I think Priscilla is offensive, but after becoming an Ab, she gain rapid regeneration.

[Sleepy Speculator]

Whichever way you cut it, Clare became a hybrid with revenge in mind, which is why she's an offensive type/ 'special soldier'. When she half awakened she obviously gained an ability off of Teresa her donor, which happened to be pre-emptive yoki perception. She didn't gain 'everything' off of Teresa just that one ability, similarly Helen didn't gain any other abilty apart from limb extension, Deneve was already a defensive type, yet she inherited extra regeneration. Miria by contrast hasn't displayed anything from her half awakening which is suspect.

Clare is likely able to regenerate if she's in ab mode, which even Duff can do (though slowly). Priscilla was using pure yoki to regenerate, and Rigardo comments on it. I can't remember where but i'm sure chiba knows.

[Gooral]

I don't understand you sleepy. Just because 4 (literally: four) defensive warriors were talented in youki sensing you're assuming that all are defensive? Induction is good when you're working with sequences of natural numbers, otherwise not so.
Teresa IS offensive and honestly we don't know a warrior that would fit better to the category. She used youki sensing in combat and used attack as her defense screen, had killer intent and didn't hesitate to act even if some innocent people were in the way and last but not least at just the sound of her name other warriors were shitting their pants...

[Ryuken]

Whichever way you cut it, Clare became a hybrid with revenge in mind, which is why she's an offensive type/ 'special soldier'.

Well, we all know that Clare was very much stronger even before she became a claymore. Both mentally and physically not to mention her determination and shear will power, for a little girl of her age and size. As Teresa figured it, the readings that she got from Clare were off the charts. So that was the story then. Therefore you can just imagine the situation now, now that she is a claymore. Add the strength and mind, the shear will power and determination and multiply it with the added strength and power gained from the transformation and let us not forget the most important fact of this specialness. Her donor Teresa, as @Sleepy had mentioned, the most powerful claymore of her time. To say that she was the most powerful claymore of all time would not be an understatement. So now, one can imagine just how special Clare is. But that does not mean that she is just an offensive type claymore. There has to be more to it @Sleepy. Becoming a hybrid with just revenge on ones mind does not necessarily mean that.:)

[PureYoki]

Without recourse to the wonderful databooks, i based the assumption that all YOKI SENSING TYPES that's the really good yoki sensors as opposed to regular radar type users, were shown to be defensive, therefore a causal link between the two.
...
Teresa was never revealed in the manga and we constantly refer to her as offensive because that's what the databooks said so, even though it's from the org's pov and can be rather inaccurate

Good post, Sleepy Speculator.

I was questioning Teresa's type by trying to establish a connection between certain types and techniques but unfortunately I failed because people missed my point and instead came up with weird theories like "Nobody is pure good or pure evil, therefore nobody is good or evil." Yes, we all know nobody is pure good or pure evil, the point was to make a classification to find out whether they are primarily good or evil by establishing certain criteria. Yagi himself classified the claymores into defensive and offensive types, nobody is purely defensive or purely offensive but he classified them anyway. There is already an official example to such classification but a similar classification somehow stirs up much controversy.

The questions like "how did Riful understand Renee is defensive" was actually an attempt to unveil the relationship between types and techniques. But every theory or speculation hits the wall of "this is not in the story and therefore is fan fiction." Of course it's not in the story, it's based on the info which is in the story, otherwise it would not be theory or speculation, it would be fact. If I speculate "Riful knew Renee is defensive because Renee is an eye", the answer is "there is no such thing in the story", so what are we supposed to discuss? Are we supposed to repeat "your personality is your type" over and over like a broken record? This statement alone means nothing without elaboration.

The story says personality defines your type but some characters in the same story find out these types without knowing anything about the personality, it's up to us to find the missing pieces of the puzzle, I doubt the answer to every one of our questions will be given in the story. If a theory doesn't make sense to you, please come up with a better one and we can discuss which one of the theories reflects the claymore world in a more realistic manner. Don't delve deep into philosophical debates like "Is evil good", it's a waste of time.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

@ chibamonster:

I guess me and you don't quite disagree as much as it seems about the nature of what makes a Claymore. I really just think that other aspects of a claymore personality come into play in what defensive and offensive abilities they get, and that goes doubly so for Awakened Beings -- Duff there being a good example. Our main difference is that like Awakened you don't like labeling some things as defensive or offensive; in this case, sensing. I've already stated that I prefer to use the concepts of primary and secondary to address the dilemma you have raised. One example was a shield is primarily defensive and secondarily offensive.

Now I know you don't like the scientific method, and I'm not going to bring it up, just that I disagree. To me the scientific method is about being open minded, not saying one theory is true over another. Science after all has its foundation on Philosophy, which is about making logical theories, while remaining open minded. One of the things a philosophy teacher always loves asking to first year philosophy students is: If a tree falls in the forest, and nobody is around to hear it, does it make a sound? The answer to that is non-important, and usually the students start coming up with all kinds of answers, while a smarter student would see the setup there, think, and then say: "Define sound." And so we go back to my definition of Defense, and I'm talking to Awakened as well here.

defense. n. 2. A means or method of defending or protecting. (dictionary.com)

Obviously, when talking about the quick sword it is a method. The information that senses provide to you are means.

Means 3 plural : resources available for disposal ; especially : material resources affording a secure life

That alone is what makes senses defensive in nature. They are a means available for disposal, whether you use those means or not is inconsequential when it comes to defining them as defensive, going by that definition.

Now to the next step, and maybe I won't have to answer Awakened's post either by making the point here, let me define why I think that senses are primarily defensive and secondarily offensive.

I have already stated that I think intent is very important when it comes to defense and offense. An attack that kills can be either offensive or defensive in nature, depending on the intent to protect or the intent to harm. Yes, senses require some cognitive ability to act upon them, the general cognitive response to a fire alarm is to vacate the premises. Sometimes the intent is done by thinking, something it is done by instincts, sometimes the intent was done by evolution, such is the case of the Jellyfish having a natural defense for example. Now some things are just instinctive and that is what makes senses defensive.

Humans are pitifully weak creatures, put us naked in a jungle with lions, tigers, and bears; and we are bound not to survive, especially without our senses, or our greatest defenses of them all our intellect. But sight doesn't really require thought to be defensive; we also have instincts. Say we are walking down the sidwalk and come to a crossing, where a bunch of cars are driving by. Do we keep walking straight right into the traffic? Do we really even have to think about it? Or is it more instictive to just stop? All our senses protect us from harm. Defense is means or methods that protect. Senses are a means that protect. This is all simple logic here, using how I setup things by defining what defense is. Sure there are other definitions of defense out there, and you and Awakened might be using a different one from me. But using things as I have defined them, which is something you have to do in any argument, makes things work perfectly for me.

Now onto why Senses, radar, are primarily defensive as opposed to offensive. The reason is quite simple: instincts. If your radar is always on, instinctively you will always use it to avoid harm. A group of bandits is after you, you instinctively use the radar to get away from them. You sense two yomas jumping from each side of you, you instinctively take action to take them down. Martial artists go through Katas daily to build instincts for responding moves, since you don't really want to think about doing those moves, when you see an attack coming. Humans instinctively react to an early warning. Now, I don't disagree with you that senses, radar, can be also used Offensively, but while the radar has a constant defensive nature to it, Offense has to have motive to it. A claymore has to plan, think, in order to attack a bunch of unsuspecting yoma. A claymore has to plan, think, in order to setup an ambush. Using senses, radar, for offense occurs far less often than using it for defense, which is something that happens frequently. I know for certain that if I see the stove red that I'm not going to touch it; I don't have to think about it either: it is instinctive. By instinct I am defining it as, "behavior that is mediated by reactions below the conscious level," as something that is not necessarily inherited.

@Awakened:

BTW, I knew that was a setup and a walked into it anyway. :D If you really want me to go through that scenario about sensors and lasers, I will. But I feel I explained my reasoning here well enough. I will just come up with an explanation about sensors being used defensively, being a means, the intent lies in the design of the system. The lasers are just as much useful in such a contraption as the sensors. I mean in that design the lasers wouldn't turn on without the sensors. I am happy with the definition the dictionary provided and means, resources available for disposal but not necessarily used, is good enough for me.

Anyway, if I failed to address anything specifically that you wanted me to, I apologize. Just let me know, and I will address it. It's just that I read both your and chiba's post before responding, and both were quite long, and I felt I may have addressed everything here.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

:D Anyway, I am glad that by the end of next week we should be getting spoilers, again. This last chapter, unlike the usual chapter, didn't leave much to speculate about, and so we ended up speculating about other things. Unlike the guy who fussed at us, I don't see much to talk about zombie claymore amazon strippers. It's more of a, huh, well I'll respect you enough yagi to see where ya going with this thing. Actually, I suspect he is going to leave us with another Cliffhanger, and we will be back with Clare and Company.

[chibamonster]

@SleepySpeculator: I know offensive and defensive are terms used in the manga for types. Those classifications just are not mentioned for techniques. Techniques seem to manifest themselves in a way simmilar to awakening based off of who the character is. It seems some excel in one side or the other, but it is rare to find a technique that is only one or the other. I'll look at some characters here to see what we find out:

Irene - calm on the outside a monster on the inside: technique quicksword which relies on her mental and pysical strength to control the monster within her while her face never shows what is going on inside.

Undine - a weak framed girl who wanted to be stronger : technique - changes her body shape to a muscled confident abrasive character.

Deneve- no matter what she tries, always is afraid of death . Helen comforts her and helps her to accept this. Seems frustrated by her own weakness in offense. Technique: her youki regenerates her. And now she has picked up a second sword imitating someone else who was frustrated with who they were.

Galatea - intelligent, great at planning and has a sense of humor, she understands reality and her opponents very well just from a look: technique, uses tricks to gain control over her opponents mind. When that fails she switches to overdrive mode which relies on her controlling her own youki output. As the God Eye of the organization she knows what is going on with herself and with others and can even laugh at it.

Cynthia - a girl who is happy just helping others, which makes Clare realize why she was sent to Pieta. Technique - helps heal others.

Yuma - a warrior who percieves herself as incredibly weak with no stamina. The little sister of the ghosts. Technique: bulks up to augment her strength and has some sword techniques. Some how does this without a youki release.

Rachel and Audrey: self explanatory.

If techniques and types stem from personalities, then we can actually look at techniques to help determine a claymores personality. Some Claymores still confuse me though; like Miria. Fastest Claymore who is slowest at making decisions in bad situations. I think this shows us much more about the character when we see schisms like this.

@Pureyoki: I didn't make fun of you for looking at sweat drops. I said you needed to look deeper than just strength and weakness as the iconography of manga was being examined for communication on what was going on in the characters mind at that moment as opposed to what had universally happened to them.

@Pure Yoki: So the evidence that Clare is much stronger than before is because Helen is sweaty and she is not. Great. I guess Clare having sweat on her face when she sensed Riful means she was weak then but strong when she carried the wounded claymore back? (scene 68 page 19, bottom left corner). And on page 69 when Miria Helen and Clare all have sweat on their face. And scene 69 page 1. I think Yagi is utilizing the iconography (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manga_iconography#Manga_symbols) unique to manga (click for details) as opposed to telling us a secret message about Clare's incredible strength and growth. Just like speed lines, the sweat marks mean something more than just sweat; nervousness or fear especially. Yagi does not go super far with the iconography; no chibis and Duff's nose doesn't shoot blood when he sees Galatea. But he still uses it to communicate the characters emotion more clearly.

Sorry for the sarcastic remarks. Sometimes it just escapes me.



@Kinematics: I certainly can be silly, although I'm not sure which time you are talking about :D. I do think that the iconography Yagi uses is very subtle yet describes a lot of what the characters think. I love the look on Audrey's face when she realizes she does not have a chance against Riful. The tear and sweat drop are great. Yuma and Helen sweating the whole time is certainly interesting. I'd be interested in reading your findings in examining character responses.
And hey, I've given an alternate theory :D. As for things being neither absolutely good nor evil, that is just how Claymore is. Sometimes it is hard to find where to put characters on the continuum. Even the worst villains in Claymore have likable, and in some cases noble, qualities. Priscilla, who seemed like she was going to be the ultimate final boss, saved Raki's life and now has given up her monstrous ways. Rubel who has tried to kill most of the main characters actually shares their same goal of destroying the organization.

@Gangsta Spansta: You are using english definitions to prove a Japanese based manga, which would be okay except you are jumping down to the 3rd or so definition which starts to deviate from what Bougyo (defense) means in Japanese. Lets look at the Japanese words here.

Bogyou - 防御(P); 防禦 (http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/cgi-bin/wwwjdic.cgi?1Q%CB%C9%B8%E6_1_) 【ぼうぎょ】 (n,vs,adj-no) defense; defence; safeguard; protection
Kougeki -攻撃 【こうげき (http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/cgi-bin/wwwjdic.cgi?1Q%B9%B6%B7%E2_1_)】 (n,vs) attack; strike; offensive; criticism; censure

Ophelia says, "Did you know among us warriors that there are types that excel in offense and types that excel in defense? You can tell them apart by the differences in their personality." Defensive types are better at defense, as seen in Pieta when they use the Defensive types as diversions while the offensive types ready their attacks. The defensive types still administer the final blow.

Galatea uses herself as a diversion when Clare goes to get Deneve because she can handle the damage that is coming. Notice that both Helen and Jean attack the AB going after Deitrich, but Helen gets in trouble several times and is helped by the others when her attacks fail. As I mentioned earlier in this post before the edit, personality seems to have a lot to do with just how Claymores excel at offense or defense.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Irene - calm on the outside a monster on the inside: technique quicksword which relies on her mental and pysical strength to control the monster within her while her face never shows what is going on inside.

I like your descriptions on characters; although, I have to disagree with this one a bit. Clare is the character who is calm on the outside, a whirl wind of emotions on the inside. I'm not sure what you mean by monster on the inside for Irene, but it makes it seem like it would cause some internal struggle. It makes me think of what Irene said to Clare about the quick sword not being suited for her, which implies that the quick sword is best for someone calm on the outside and on the inside.

Anyway, Irene is a unique character in that she changed in a way that most claymores never do. She is an offensive type, so that means she chose to fight the metaphorical yoma over self preservation. If she were to become a Claymore after Priscilla, she would've become a defensive type, since she now fears death, and chooses preservation over fight. Most Claymores don't get the chance for such a drastic change. The mysterious thing is how would it effect her if she awakened? Maybe she would have good regeneration capabilities as a Awakened Being. It's a unique case, and we don't know if awakening can further improve regenerative qualities like becoming a Claymore did. Just something to make ya think. :D

Galatea - intelligent, great at planning and has a sense of humor, she understands reality and her opponents very well just from a look: technique, uses tricks to gain control over her opponents mind. When that fails she switches to overdrive mode which relies on her controlling her own youki output. As the God Eye of the organization she knows what is going on with herself and with others and can even laugh at it.


You know the prospect of an awakened Galatea scares me more than an awakened Irene. Manipulation on that scale, factoring in how much yoki she has, I could speculate that such a power could put her in the abyssal range; that is unless her manipulation wouldn't be effective against an abyssal enemy once awakened, but still she already seems to have more yoki than alicia; it is hard to say how much of a factor that would be.

[PureYoki]

I didn't make fun of you for looking at sweat drops. I said you needed to look deeper than just strength and weakness as the iconography of manga was being examined for communication on what was going on in the characters mind at that moment as opposed to what had universally happened to them.

The "sweat" remark was just an example to show that we pay attention to the visual details, and I still stand by my argument (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=1615985&postcount=1580): Clare is physically stronger than Helen.

And hey, I've given an alternate theory :D.

Theories are created to find an answer to unanswered questions. If your theory can enlighten us about some of these issues, it will be great. For example, how did Riful know Renee is defensive? What does your theory say about it?

[Sleepy Speculator]

@gooral
Yeah only four, but look at that he other way around and in the manga there has only been shown five/six yoki sensor types. The fifth's type was never revealed, but ALL of those who were revealed by type were defensive. Clare who would be the sixth type isn't actually a regular soldier but instead is implied to have gained the ability from her donor. Now i know this could be a case of odd one out, or black swan induction problem etc etc. I'm merely speculating based on logic and observation.

@ryuken
Yeah i know Clare was likely to end up an offensive type anyway, but it doesn't change the driving factor behind her decision, and unlike others who were taken Clare volunteered for it, with a goal in mind.

@chibamonster
I don't see how it's not conclusive that techniques in some way correlate with their personality and claymore type, i mean all of the sword techniques have been held by offensive claymores except as far as is implied Audrey who uses her sword for 'deflection' purposes but has a problem with her attack power when up against Riful. Sword = weapon item primarily used for offensive purposes, whereas the defensive types have mosty been using body augmentation techniques or sorts, increased regeneration, heightened senses etc.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

@Gangsta Spansta: You are using english definitions to prove a Japanese based manga, which would be okay except you are jumping down to the 3rd or so definition which starts to deviate from what Bougyo (defense) means in Japanese. Lets look at the Japanese words here.

Bogyou - 防御(P); 防禦 (http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/cgi-bin/wwwjdic.cgi?1Q%CB%C9%B8%E6_1_) 【ぼうぎょ】 (n,vs,adj-no) defense; defence; safeguard; protection
Kougeki -攻撃 【こうげき (http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/cgi-bin/wwwjdic.cgi?1Q%B9%B6%B7%E2_1_)】 (n,vs) attack; strike; offensive; criticism; censure

You really haven't explained how that def. of defense deviates from the Japanese meaning to me. Bogyou -- defense; safeguard; protection -- doesn't really contradict what I've said. In fact, some of the other definition in the dictionary don't contradict that defintion either: 2 a: capability of resisting attack b: defensive play or ability. That doesn't contradict the defintion that happens to be #3 in that dictionary and #2 in another one. now, "1 a: the act or action of defending," the first defintion is really just a subset of the 3rd definition in that particular dictionary. Is Bogyou specifically tied to action only? Now as far as the dictionary goes, those are only general defintion of things, often times science books have more precise defintions for a certain word as it pertains to them, or a math book has a more precise definition of a concept; the same is true for a book on political science and so forth. In philosophy, the person making a logical argument is responsible for defining things, usually more precisely than the general dictionary does. Isn't the same also true with the Japanese, or would Yagi be limited by the dictionary definition of their words? Maybe they have another word for defense he chose not to use?

Then again, a huge part of the argument has nothing to do with how Yagi defines things -- I have already stated I don't like the "Defensive"/"Offensive" classification that Ophelia used. This has more to do with my observation about the characters, and the deductions I have made therefor. I don't see why I have to define defense the Japanese way just because the manga is Japanese, in my argument, when I am trying to convey my own ideas. That is unless you have a specific instance of something being said that would change the whole Claymore Type as yagi put it, fighting style, ability being different and that you can have: D,D,D; D,D,O; D,O,D; D,O,O; O,D,D; O,D,O; O,O,D; and O,O,O claymores. It is my theory that all of those are possibilities, and I have yet to see any logical argument made to disprove any claymore type in that sequence.


Ophelia says, "Did you know among us warriors that there are types that excel in offense and types that excel in defense? You can tell them apart by the differences in their personality." Defensive types are better at defense, as seen in Pieta when they use the Defensive types as diversions while the offensive types ready their attacks. The defensive types still administer the final blow.

I take what Ophelia said as a generality, because for it to be true all the time would require the Claymorization of a person to brain wash them. I Do think there are some mental changes in the process, but I don't think they're that drastic.

Galatea uses herself as a diversion when Clare goes to get Deneve because she can handle the damage that is coming. Notice that both Helen and Jean attack the AB going after Deitrich, but Helen gets in trouble several times and is helped by the others when her attacks fail. As I mentioned earlier in this post before the edit, personality seems to have a lot to do with just how Claymores excel at offense or defense.

I disagree there. Galatea used herself to hold off Duff, because she had more faith in her abilities to do so than Clare, who Riful almost had tricked in to awakening already. Also being #3 she seems to see both #9 and #47 as weak compared to her, as her statement, when she lets Clare and Jean go, that she was going to give the org. about such weak claymores such as them surely not surviving that.

[chibamonster]

@Gangsta Spanksta: The monster part is Irene and Clare's analysis, not mine.
Fit for Battle 1. Chapter 37 page 29.

Irene: In short, quicksword is a technique where one arm goes berserk with full youma power and the rest of the body strives with all its might to control it. To do that requires full concentration of your will and the spiritual strength to stop the youki from leaving your arm.
Clare: To use this evil technique without your face changing color a bit, you must be a monster.
Irene: Had enough? Want to quit?

(iconography is used here in the shape of the word balloon clare is speaking to show her being exhausted, tired, and generally distraught.)

If you don't trust Ophelia, who introduced and explained offensive/defensive types to us, then I guess there is nothing to talk about on the matter :D. It is not worth my time to look into the Japanese with you if this is your stand point.

@Pure Yoki: Of course Clare is stronger than Helen. The sweat proved that to you? Helen still hits harder though, being only the second person to cut Riful's ribbons (rachel being first). Sweat in manga is used iconographically to show internal states of the characters; exhaustion, fear, nervousness, etc.

How did Riful know Renee was defensive? Let's take a look!

The easiset way we know to tell an offensive type from a defensive type is looking at how they heal and regenerate. As Riful has already injured and tortured Renee she has a first hand view of her healing capabilities. She was afraid she had taken it too far as Renee would not wake up. She knew Renee was fast from her escaping Duff.

We might even be seeing it on page 4 of chapter 82, where it shows Renee's leg stumps making a "gishi gishi gishi" sound, as if trying to do something. I haven't seen that sound before. Deneve's healing sounds like boko boko, or Byaaah when it happens really fast, youki releases sound like biki biki or in massive ones they gyaah, or gashan. Maybe it is the sound of being impaled? Possible, but it seems something is actually happening there as the sound effect is not present in the earlier panel. Maybe it is a sound effect sound track:heh:.

Having an injured defensive type in front of you, especially after torturing them, seems like it would be the easiest way to tell in my opinion.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

@Chiba:

Maybe a monster of determination? :D But generally, it seems to me, when someone calls someone a monster in this manga, they are at awe at that person power. That is at least in these cases: Teresa is a monster, Priscilla is a monster, and now Irene is a monster. Is there anything in the original text, that isn't getting translated, that specifically states that Clare isn't in Awe there of Irene? I mean that is how I read it when I read it in English, so if anything else is meant to be conveyed to me, then the translator didn't pass it on.

[Sleepy Speculator]

If all the sensor types are defensive warriors then the very fact that, Renee fell for the trap and tried to run from Duff, would indicate that she's a sensor type and therefore a defensive type capable of regenerating. Which is why it's just as well Clare wasn't caught.

[PureYoki]

Of course Clare is stronger than Helen. The sweat proved that to you? Helen still hits harder though, being only the second person to cut Riful's ribbons (rachel being first). Sweat in manga is used iconographically to show internal states of the characters; exhaustion, fear, nervousness, etc.

Proof is a strong word, I would rather say "hint". Well, I see you included "exhaustion" in internal states list, it's good to know we're on the same page. ;)

We might even be seeing it on page 4 of chapter 82, where it shows Renee's leg stumps making a "gishi gishi gishi" sound, as if trying to do something. I haven't seen that sound before. Deneve's healing sounds like boko boko, or Byaaah when it happens really fast, youki releases sound like biki biki or in massive ones they gyaah, or gashan. Maybe it is the sound of being impaled? Possible, but it seems something is actually happening there as the sound effect is not present in the earlier panel. Maybe it is a sound effect sound track:heh:.

Or maybe it's the sound of Renee's empty stomach. Sorry, couldn't resist. :D

As Riful has already injured and tortured Renee she has a first hand view of her healing capabilities.
...
Having an injured defensive type in front of you, especially after torturing them, seems like it would be the easiest way to tell in my opinion.

If you torture them for days, perhaps. Renee doesn't look like she regenerated at all, regenerating lost limbs takes a very long time. chiba, have you ever considered the possibility that sensor types are defensive except Clare who is special (quarter yoma)?

[MisterJB]

chibamonster: Wouldn't the sound just be her blood pouring from her wounds?

[Awakened]

@ chibamonster:

I guess me and you don't quite disagree as much as it seems about the nature of what makes a Claymore. I really just think that other aspects of a claymore personality come into play in what defensive and offensive abilities they get, and that goes doubly so for Awakened Beings -- Duff there being a good example. Our main difference is that like Awakened you don't like labeling some things as defensive or offensive; in this case, sensing. I've already stated that I prefer to use the concepts of primary and secondary to address the dilemma you have raised. One example was a shield is primarily defensive and secondarily offensive.

Now I know you don't like the scientific method, and I'm not going to bring it up, just that I disagree. To me the scientific method is about being open minded, not saying one theory is true over another. Science after all has its foundation on Philosophy, which is about making logical theories, while remaining open minded. One of the things a philosophy teacher always loves asking to first year philosophy students is: If a tree falls in the forest, and nobody is around to hear it, does it make a sound? The answer to that is non-important, and usually the students start coming up with all kinds of answers, while a smarter student would see the setup there, think, and then say: "Define sound." And so we go back to my definition of Defense, and I'm talking to Awakened as well here.

defense. n. 2. A means or method of defending or protecting. (dictionary.com)

Obviously, when talking about the quick sword it is a method. The information that senses provide to you are means.

Means 3 plural : resources available for disposal ; especially : material resources affording a secure life

That alone is what makes senses defensive in nature. They are a means available for disposal, whether you use those means or not is inconsequential when it comes to defining them as defensive, going by that definition.

Now to the next step, and maybe I won't have to answer Awakened's post either by making the point here, let me define why I think that senses are primarily defensive and secondarily offensive.

I have already stated that I think intent is very important when it comes to defense and offense. An attack that kills can be either offensive or defensive in nature, depending on the intent to protect or the intent to harm. Yes, senses require some cognitive ability to act upon them, the general cognitive response to a fire alarm is to vacate the premises. Sometimes the intent is done by thinking, something it is done by instincts, sometimes the intent was done by evolution, such is the case of the Jellyfish having a natural defense for example. Now some things are just instinctive and that is what makes senses defensive.

Humans are pitifully weak creatures, put us naked in a jungle with lions, tigers, and bears; and we are bound not to survive, especially without our senses, or our greatest defenses of them all our intellect. But sight doesn't really require thought to be defensive; we also have instincts. Say we are walking down the sidwalk and come to a crossing, where a bunch of cars are driving by. Do we keep walking straight right into the traffic? Do we really even have to think about it? Or is it more instictive to just stop? All our senses protect us from harm. Defense is means or methods that protect. Senses are a means that protect. This is all simple logic here, using how I setup things by defining what defense is. Sure there are other definitions of defense out there, and you and Awakened might be using a different one from me. But using things as I have defined them, which is something you have to do in any argument, makes things work perfectly for me.

Now onto why Senses, radar, are primarily defensive as opposed to offensive. The reason is quite simple: instincts. If your radar is always on, instinctively you will always use it to avoid harm. A group of bandits is after you, you instinctively use the radar to get away from them. You sense two yomas jumping from each side of you, you instinctively take action to take them down. Martial artists go through Katas daily to build instincts for responding moves, since you don't really want to think about doing those moves, when you see an attack coming. Humans instinctively react to an early warning. Now, I don't disagree with you that senses, radar, can be also used Offensively, but while the radar has a constant defensive nature to it, Offense has to have motive to it. A claymore has to plan, think, in order to attack a bunch of unsuspecting yoma. A claymore has to plan, think, in order to setup an ambush. Using senses, radar, for offense occurs far less often than using it for defense, which is something that happens frequently. I know for certain that if I see the stove red that I'm not going to touch it; I don't have to think about it either: it is instinctive. By instinct I am defining it as, "behavior that is mediated by reactions below the conscious level," as something that is not necessarily inherited.

@Awakened:

BTW, I knew that was a setup and a walked into it anyway. :D If you really want me to go through that scenario about sensors and lasers, I will. But I feel I explained my reasoning here well enough. I will just come up with an explanation about sensors being used defensively, being a means, the intent lies in the design of the system. The lasers are just as much useful in such a contraption as the sensors. I mean in that design the lasers wouldn't turn on without the sensors. I am happy with the definition the dictionary provided and means, resources available for disposal but not necessarily used, is good enough for me.

Anyway, if I failed to address anything specifically that you wanted me to, I apologize. Just let me know, and I will address it. It's just that I read both your and chiba's post before responding, and both were quite long, and I felt I may have addressed everything here.

I looked it up at http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/defense but could not find your definition.

BTW I like your argument, but I still have a problem with it. I almost changed my mind.

Lest use your definition of defense.
Means 3 plural : resources available for disposal ; especially : material resources affording a secure life

The problem with calling a radar a defense is, it cannot afford a secure life by itself. In all your examples, there was always a reaction to what your senses picked up. What I mean by that is, if you do not react to your senses you will not be protected. You can call the reaction natural, but it's still a reaction.

Compare a shield to a radar
If you use a shield to stop an attack, you will be protected.
If you use a radar to stop an incoming missile you will not be protected. (notice I said radar, not radar + laser).


The other problem is, sensing is a prerequisite for everything we do. It cannot by itself accomplish anything. It's like a map, it tels you the location of the berried treasure, it will not get you there.

I see where you coming from.
You can call it a part of defense, but it is not a defense by it self.

[chibamonster]

@MisterJB: If her wounds were bleeding then maybe. The only parts of Renee that are bleeding when she wakes up are her severed legs on the ground.

@PureYoki: It may not look like she has regenerated, but that is probably has something to do with Riful apologizes for torturing her into unconsciousness. Claymores don't bleed much after the initial wound so it is hard to tell if the two stabs through her shoulders and the one through her gut have completely healed. Even defensive types have to be conscious to heal effectively, it is actually an exertion they put forth. They chose to heal or not to. What happened to Renee before she went unconscious we don't know, but it was definitely Riful style torture.

It just seems to me that healing is the most apparent sign of defensive types, and if you are torturing someone (especially having tortured many before) you'd get a feel for what was offensive type healing and what was defensive. Just speculation though, Riful doesn't tell us how she knows. She is good at sensing so she might just be able to tell, like she figured out Galatea's ability, or sensed Alicia outranging both Clare and Galatea. As Riful has showed impressive sensing abilities in the past she might just know by looking at someone. Or maybe it is Renee's response that helps. Riful is pretty good at reading people so she would know pretty quick what they were like, as types can be determined by personality, especially when torture is thrown into the mix.

...or maybe Riful is a defensive type which makes her a better sensor so she just knows others types by sensing them :p

@Sleepy: Both of the eyes of the organization we have seen are defensive so you've got me there.

Clare is definitely offensive and an excellent youki sensor, though she is a bit special. Alicia is good at gauging her enemies, but she lacks personality and may be neither offensive or defensive. Nina is good at targeting enemies, but loses focus on anything else and she has minimal range as the incoming projectiles devastated her team. Rigardo is good at targeting enemies, but neither he nor Isley could sense Priscilla's real power. Riful sensed Priscilla's true power, is an excellent sensor but the data books say she is offensive. Riful's personality from what we have seen seems very defensive to me, but whatever. Irene is definitely offensive and was able to sense Teresa's signature in Clare as well as determine Priscilla's strength somehow (only 3 have managed that, Renee needed to be threatened to do it).

Teresa was an excellent sensor though her type is unconfirmed. Miria is good at sensing and she is apparently offensive; Miria sensed Clare's real power, Rigardo (and knew who he was the second he appeared, which is interesting because it seems she had sensed him before), she knew instantly that the Male AB was too strong, and she scanned the mountain range to see if any Claymores were close (so she does not out range Galatea). Tabitha is a good sensor and she is defensive. Yuma is terrible at sensing.

So it seems to me like sensing can be mastered by both types. The problem is that we really do not have many types confirmed in the story. The 2 eyes of the organization we have met have been defensive. It is interesting that Renee had a very long training period to become the eye of the organization. As seen when Galatea taught Clare the trick to sense Riful, some sensing can be learned.

[PureYoki]

...or maybe Riful is a defensive type which makes her a better sensor so she just knows others types by sensing them :p

Although a joke, I liked this answer better than your above answer. Anyway thanks for the effort. :)

Riful sensed Priscilla's true power, is an excellent sensor but the data books say she is offensive.

For the record, this statement is debatable. I disagree Riful is an excellent sensor, she needs Renee to awaken Raciella. (Don't say she can awaken Raciella herself, it's also debatable.) In fact although she estimates Raciella is AO level, she has no idea about Raciella's true power, she says it may be a demon or a snake. On the other hand, Renee with a slight effort found out that Raciella was at least as powerful as Riful and most probably higher. IMO she couldn't do a reliable comparison because Riful's yoki was cloaked.

If Riful is that good at sensing, she would realize she is doomed the moment Raciella awakens. :p

[MisterJB]

chibamonster: look better at the page, especially the last image, there are drops of blood falling from the wound on her legs. Also, if the wound had already closed up, she wouldn't be able to reattach them

[chibamonster]

@Pure Yoki: Riful out ranged Galatea and Clare to sense Alicia. If not accuracy she has distance :D. Not all youki sensors are created equal. Clare may have matched Galatea's range, but she does not know Galatea's tricks. Galatea cannot do Clare's preemptive youki sensing and Clare cannot use manipulation in battle. Renee even says she specializes in long range sensing, though she does all right looking into Raciella.

We have Irene who is confirmed offensive who sensed Priscilla's power, tracked down Teresa (did she outrange her? we don't know, but Teresa knew Irene was after her and that she wasn't going to shake her for whatever reason), sensed Teresa in Clare, and sensed that Raphaela was stronger than #5 (even though she was cloaked). Sophia and Noel look to her to see if Priscilla has crossed her limit yet, and Irene knows that exact moment as well. Maybe Irene has something better than youki sensing as she does things that even excellent youki sensors cannot do having sensed the ability of 2 cloaked and incredibly powerful characters. Miria managed this one on Clare as well. Isley also managed to sense (somehow) that Deneve and Helen were suppressing their youki, unless he just saw their swords but I doubt it as his first response was, "why are you hiding your youki?"

If we are ignoring the data books we really don't have many confirmed types at all.
Defensive:
Galatea, Renee, Deneve, Yuma, Cynthia, Tabitha, Audrey

Offensive:
Ophelia, Clare, Irene, Raphaela, Rachel, Jean [Rigardo & Duff]

I might be missing some though. Sure there are others who seem pretty obvious, like Helen but for actual confirmation by the characters themselves there really are not many. As for really excellent sensors we have: Teresa, Clare, Irene, Alicia, Riful, Galatea, Renee, and Tabitha.

Of course, not all sensors are created equal and they have different abilities inside of youki sensing. Nina and Rigardo are great at targeting by youki but they fail on other aspects. Ophelia and Miata can smell AB's and youki strength. The claymore world is varied.

@MisterJB: It certainly could be blood. There is blood on her leg for sure, just not much. Certainly not enough to get its own massive sound effect. Some of it could be blood, though other parts are atmospheric, like the white and black dots floating around the image that are not blood. Notice that the white and black flecks go all the way above Renee's head. Claymores do bleed, they just do not bleed much after the initial attack (where blood shoots profusely from the wound). We have nothing like the blood from Renee's severed legs on the page before. You can see in chapter 84 page 11 that while the wounds are still fresh, they really do not bleed much if at all.

Maybe the sound effect is her heart beat realizing something awful has happened to her...? hmmm... I dunno what the sound means.

[Sleepy Speculator]

The problem is as you say chiba that so v.few claymores are mentioned by type, but it's nice to see you agree that Teresa was never revealed :D

I mean i'm not even that strongly for Teresa to be one way or the other it just supports my overarching theory that i've been developing, i think i pretty much said before Renee turned up that she was defensive, much as i'm speculating that Clarice also is.

With Alicia and Beth thing (one entity really), she may not have been all that far away as Clare and Galatea both excellent sensor types had their hands full dealing with Riful, it was Riful that was disturbed by Alicia being close, (because someone weird is close, and i really don't like having my power measured), and she wasn't that concerned about the 3 claymores in front of her. Also Galatea may or may not have known about Alicia's presence since they are both soldiers for the org, though to deliberately lie about Jean and Clare dying may be abit far for her to go if she *knew* she was being watched. Clare was confused about Riful's statement, Galatea wasn't.

I will add that Clare can be abit too focused at times (just like my carnivore analogy) and has to look for something to see it (Riful's presence, though it didn't help that she'd just come off of the pills i'd guess). Though it does seem she's at least as capable over distance as Galatea, just nowhere near as practiced. Rubul's later statement about obvious lies backs up the theory that Galatea knew Alicia was near. (and is probably why she went anywhere near Riful in the first place)

It's interesting but it strikes me when i think about it, that unlike Galatea, Alicia is unlikely to lie or take back what she sees going on when she senses for example Clare, Galatea, Jean, going against Riful and Duff. Which means the org could be very aware of Clare's little trick contrary to what Rubul would have Clare think. I did wonder what Alicia was doing so close to Riful when it's a risk that she could be wiped out before being 'complete' the answer is IMO that the reason Jean and her team were on a hunt was because the org arranged them to be sent against Riful as a means of distracting her and gauging her potential. After all who put in the request? Clare wandering straight into the middle of it is just typical bad luck,and the result of not being able to back down from anything.

It is implied that Miria doesn't have Clare or Galatea's level of ability because she was unaware of Galatea's presence in the slashers when Clare sensed her and Galatea was warned not to get any closer, but claimed to be having a little difficulty given the distance. Miria basically assured Clare that no-one was there, when someone was, just a little further out of Miria's range/distance.

Similarly Tabitha is now shown doing the 'eye' sort of job for the ghosts reading at distance and to a depth/proficiency that Galatea is rendered an unnecessary addition.

Cynthia is shown to have the same distance capability of sensing as Clare (who we know can sense upto around Galatea's distance according to the slashers). I get the feeling that they don't know what to make of each other, since in that respect they can both do the same job.

Now whilst all of the SENSING types are defensive it's rather obvious that not all the defensive warriors are SENSING types, Deneve for instance seems to be abit indifferent to it, Yuma makes the standard mistake of thinking Riful's yoki mask is her actual level etc. But if my theory is correct then apart from under Clare's circumstances all SENSING types are defensive warriors.

[PureYoki]

Riful out ranged Galatea and Clare to sense Alicia.

Interestingly Riful understood that someone was trying to measure her power. Raciella reacted when Renee went into her subconscious and measured her power. I see a connection here, Alicia somehow made Riful aware of herself by trying to go deep into her for a reliable measure. And I don't think Riful outranged Galatea, if Riful outranged Galatea, Alicia also outranged Galatea but Galatea's handler said she was the only one who could sense from very long distances.

We have Irene who is confirmed offensive who sensed Priscilla's power, tracked down Teresa (did she outrange her? we don't know, but Teresa knew Irene was after her and that she wasn't going to shake her for whatever reason), sensed Teresa in Clare, and sensed that Raphaela was stronger than #5 (even though she was cloaked).

I really hope Yagi explains us how Irene's abilities work, it was probably not yoki sensing because she was able to sense completely cloaked characters, even Galatea can't do that. (An inferior version of Miata's enhanced senses?) She misjudged Teresa and she most likely misjudged Priscilla as can be seen from her reaction when they both released their yoki. She knew Priscilla was strong but I don't think she could estimate it accurately.

Miria managed this one on Clare as well.

IMO it was a hunch.

As for really excellent sensors we have: Teresa, Clare, Irene, Alicia, Riful, Galatea, Renee, and Tabitha.

Irene (unknown ability), Riful (doubtful) and you most probably forgot Cynthia. She seems to have yoki manipulation (healing others) and long range yoki sensing abilities. (chapter 83)

[MisterJB]

we need spoilers