Claymore Chapter 87 [Archive] - Page 4

Cyclone

2009-01-23, 21:35

Now onto why Senses, radar, are primarily defensive as opposed to offensive. The reason is quite simple: instincts. If your radar is always on, instinctively you will always use it to avoid harm. A group of bandits is after you, you instinctively use the radar to get away from them. You sense two yomas jumping from each side of you, you instinctively take action to take them down. Martial artists go through Katas daily to build instincts for responding moves, since you don't really want to think about doing those moves, when you see an attack coming. Humans instinctively react to an early warning. Now, I don't disagree with you that senses, radar, can be also used Offensively, but while the radar has a constant defensive nature to it, Offense has to have motive to it. A claymore has to plan, think, in order to attack a bunch of unsuspecting yoma. A claymore has to plan, think, in order to setup an ambush. Using senses, radar, for offense occurs far less often than using it for defense, which is something that happens frequently. I know for certain that if I see the stove red that I'm not going to touch it; I don't have to think about it either: it is instinctive. By instinct I am defining it as, "behavior that is mediated by reactions below the conscious level," as something that is not necessarily inherited.

Dear defensive type :p :
Personally, I believe the best course of action in a fire alarm is to find the fire and attempt to put it out [water/smother] (and only if it's hopeless then run away). Similarly, being chased by bandits, my priority would be to find a weapon which which I could cleave their heads in - unless they were robbing my appartment, of course, in which case I'd happly attempt to tear their heads off with my bare hands in the event no other instruments were handy. I guess that's just me though - my reactions are just different than yours I guess... Maybe we're just different types with different instincts or something :D

chibamonster

2009-01-24, 03:30

@PureYoki: So Irene wasn't really using youki sensing but using something far more advanced and Miria figured out Clare's power based on a hunch. Irene didn't correctly put a cap on the two most powerful characters in the series which means her sensing was off, even though no one else has managed it either. Naturally the more you look at this predicament the more you can easily and ultimately see that Irene had some solid sensing skills for an offensive type. Maybe you might even come to think that she has some of the best sensing skills in the entire series.

Galatea showed us that sensing large youki is easier over a greater distance when she sensed Isley and Luciella's fight. What was ultimately most impressive about Riful was that she sensed Alicia at that distance, no matter what the reason. Had Galatea sensed Alicia, and knew Alicia was watching her, then obviously she would know there was no chance of lying to the organization as they would have showed up on Rimuto's radar. Though maybe that is just Galatea's style. Clare's range rivals galatea and she missed Alicia completely.

@Cyclone: I'm with you. The second enemies pop up on my radar is the time to start figuring out how to destroy them. Live by this code and become king of First Person Shooters.

PureYoki

2009-01-24, 04:25

So Irene wasn't really using youki sensing but using something far more advanced and Miria figured out Clare's power based on a hunch. Irene didn't correctly put a cap on the two most powerful characters in the series which means her sensing was off, even though no one else has managed it either. Naturally the more you look at this predicament the more you can easily and ultimately see that Irene had some solid sensing skills for an offensive type. Maybe you might even come to think that she has some of the best sensing skills in the entire series.

We know even blind Galatea couldn't sense completely suppressed G7. If Irene did indeed use her yoki sensing abilities to measure the power of Priscilla and Rafaela who were also completely suppressed, it means Irene was the ultimate best in yoki sensing skills.

But if Irene had such skills, certainly Teresa would have known it. From her yoki signature, Teresa knew Irene was around, then why did she act like she could suppress herself and avoid being detected?

Galatea showed us that sensing large youki is easier over a greater distance when she sensed Isley and Luciella's fight. What was ultimately most impressive about Riful was that she sensed Alicia at that distance, no matter what the reason. Had Galatea sensed Alicia, and knew Alicia was watching her, then obviously she would know there was no chance of lying to the organization as they would have showed up on Rimuto's radar. Though maybe that is just Galatea's style. Clare's range rivals galatea and she missed Alicia completely.

Did Riful sense Alicia before she transformed into her awakened form?

a) No, she didn't.

Why not? Alicia was at the same distance.

b) Yes, she did.

Why did Riful transform? It was obvious (*) Alicia couldn't measure Riful in her human form, why did she give the opportunity?

(*) If human form counts, Alicia had more than enough time to measure Riful.

PureYoki

2009-01-24, 04:50

Similarly, being chased by bandits, my priority would be to find a weapon which which I could cleave their heads in - unless they were robbing my appartment, of course, in which case I'd happly attempt to tear their heads off with my bare hands in the event no other instruments were handy. I guess that's just me though - my reactions are just different than yours I guess... Maybe we're just different types with different instincts or something :D

Would you really? I mean REALLY kill them. Not hypothetically - YOU - REALLY make some dead who's in front of you by severing their head from their body and watch their lifeless eyes stare back at you, while their blood sprays in all directions? The death rattle of the last breath pleasant to your ears? :D

Sleepy Speculator

2009-01-24, 06:59

erm, i'm quite pacifistic, but unfortunately a beserker so the answer to that is yes i would.

PureYoki

2009-01-24, 07:36

erm, i'm quite pacifistic, but unfortunately a beserker so the answer to that is yes i would.

You missed the point, see your PM. :)

Cyclone

2009-01-24, 12:47

Would you really? I mean REALLY kill them. Not hypothetically - YOU - REALLY make some dead who's in front of you by severing their head from their body and watch their lifeless eyes stare back at you, while their blood sprays in all directions? The death rattle of the last breath pleasant to your ears? :D

Gee, those words sound familiar (it's polite to use a citation when you do that), but to answer your/my question...

If they were robbing my appartment and put up a fight (though I might try to limit the blood due to clean up), yes. I've had my place robbed once, and it changes your perspective on things. The worst part though is now, everytime I come home, I half expect to see my front door crowbarred in again. That peace of mind is the one thing those bastards stole from me that I most want back. Their deaths would make me feel much better - and it's no loss or anything because their actions prove their lives are worthless anyways...

PureYoki

2009-01-24, 13:17

Ryuken

2009-01-24, 13:47

Well in any situation, lets say almost all situations I would first defend and then attack. You know, wait for the opponent to make a move and then counterattack myself. Maybe I'am a more defensive minded person. But at least that's how I would prefer it.:)

chibamonster

2009-01-24, 15:58

@PureYoki: Teresa doesn't notice Irene, Sophia, and Noel until they enter the town. We do not know the exact mechanics of how it happened, how Irene located this particular town, whether Priscilla helped, or what happened. Naturally, however, one must come to realize:

Character who repeatedly shows some of the most impressive sensing (both youki and beyond youki) in the series = character who has some of the most impressive youki sensing and beyond

As for sensing creatures without a conventional youki signature, it has happened several times. Riful does not show up on a normal Claymore's radar but Galatea knew the trick to see her (have to look at where the youki waves cancel themselves out in the actual location where Riful sits). Priscilla did not show up on Renee's map until she had already made physical contact and talked to her. Renee also didn't notice Riful until she was on top of her. Renee also did not notice Raciella until they were put in front of her, and once that happened she was able to focus and look in a single place to find Raciella's true power deep inside. I think Renee is an excellent sensor (Galatea would still beat her in Youki I Spy) she just has run into some bizarre characters. With these unique characters it seems there are definite tricks that work on them, sort of like Jonsey finding the Red October in Hunt for the Red October.

I still don't know how Isley knew that Helen and Deneve were "suppressing their youki", though it seems he did not know from the sword initially as he talked to them for a time as if figuring out what they were doing. Miata naturally has an ability that makes youki cloaking useless, especially for tracking. Galatea can sense characters on full pills, which used to be impossible. Some things which are not conventional are sensed by some very keen characters. For instance Raphaela did not recognize Teresa's signature in Clare like Irene did even though Raph herself had met and was quite impressed by Teresa. She still knew her name with Rubel came to talk. Miria knew somehow that Clare was incredibly strong, and even wanted to test it which is not something she did with the rest of her team despite claiming that she wanted to, "know everyones actual strength." Miria really sensed some real power in Clare, one that might be beyond her own.

On a note towards Cyclone's statement, sometimes violence is the only answer. I do not wish a time like that on anyone, but the idea that all humans are rational and willing to talk is obviously a fantasy. When a time like that comes it is not a matter of whether you want to hurt them or not, it is whether you want to live or not. The best way to handle a truly violent life or death conflict is to finish it as quickly as possible, as violently as possible. Most who cannot put their minds around this are the casualties of these situations, which is what the antisocial criminal mind thrives on as prey. They have a sense of comfort because they think the rules of social behavior apply to everyone but themselves, just like the bandits in Claymore thought they were safe from Teresa because she had rules that held her back.

Cyclone

2009-01-24, 16:16

Cyclone,

it was just unexpected to hear these words from you who said

"Manga, and media in general, make it so simple for us. A Bad guy? Well the good guy should kill him! A nice and easy directive issued from our chairs, sofas, beds and couches. No moral issues, no police/moritians to deal with, no mess to clean up, no funeral to pay for (or hole to dig)."

and I had become the bad guy for killing the ultimate evil Lex Luthor. Never mind, this discussion is past. ;)

I don't remember the discussion from then completely (don't know if it was even with you or someone else), but from my vague recollection, it was basically a "someone is your enemy/someone is against you -> kill them" type thing. I said what I said is because I do not believe everything in that category is a capital crime. (Especially in something like Claymore, where enemies are formed by a clash of conflicting personal ambitions - rather than anyone's pressing desire to be evil.)

I have come to believe that burglarly should be very near a capital crime though (for repeat offenders especially). Civilized society requires certain core rules to live by/ethics of it's people (I mean the major things: stealing, killing, etc - not the more trivial junk). Breaking down someone's door with a crowbar is not something that can be done by accident in a lapse of judgement. Rather it demonstrates a clear incompatibily with the core morality necessary for living in society. Thus they forfiet their their right for living in society. And since air-dropping such offenders unarmed to somewhere near Polar Bear Provincial park (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_Bear_Provincial_Park) is not a common option, then the focus of thier lost right to living in society shifts from 'society' to 'living'. Thus killing them is administering justice. Maybe if they met me on a good day and they were just kids or something, I'd settle for just breaking both arms, both legs and castrating, tho...

Maybe it is rather a hard line, maybe I'm still just bitter, but that's how I see it anyways.

PureYoki

2009-01-24, 16:56

@ chibamonster:

Actually Miata is the character who has shown the most impressive sensing until now and even you didn't include her in your excellent sensors list because her abilities work in a different way. I believe Irene had an inferior version of Miata's abilities (it's the best theory I could come up with so far) because I think there was no way she could sense Priscilla's or Rafaela's nonexisting yoki aura, she sensed something else like Miata.

Every claymore has a distinct aura, we know that. (Remember the "memorize auras" command in Slashers arc) Teresa had met Irene before, so she certainly knew Irene's aura. And if Irene was that good at sensing (to the point she could detect completely hidden auras), Teresa knew suppression was useless but she talked as if she could hide herself if she wanted to.

So from Teresa's words we know that Irene's sensing was not supreme and if Irene knew how strong Rafaela was, it was not due to yoki sensing but some other ability.

There is another theory about Riful-Alicia issue for forum members to discuss: I (Alicia) can see a skyscraper (Riful's yoki in her AB form) from a long distance but you (Galatea), even if you have sharper eyes (better yoki sensing), may not see me because I'm too small compared to a skyscaper. Although unlikely, according to this theory, maybe Alicia and Galatea didn't sense each other at all. As I said before, Riful only sensed that she was being scanned by someone else and deduced that the org was trying to estimate her power for comparison with a new weapon that they developed.

And I won't go into details but I think everybody agrees violence, although a last resort, is sometimes the only choice.

PureYoki

2009-01-24, 17:23

@ Cyclone:

I now know your opinion, there's no point in going over old issues. Maybe not burglars but I agree repeat offenders of homicide and attempted homicide (esp. mass murder) deserve capital punishment. If I were the only one in the world who had the power to punish them, I would kill them. My possessions were stolen multiple times by burglars but I doubt I could kill them if I caught one of them. (They deserve a good beating though.) :)

chibamonster

2009-01-24, 18:23

@PureYoki: Pretty sure I mentioned Miata in my last post there. Let me check. Yup, I certainly did. Miata also failed to mention that Agatha was sitting in Rabona, which is probably because of her insanity but it certainly would have been some helpful information for Clarice.

I thought the theory was that sensor types were defensive, and if Miria, Miata, and Irene are using something even more advanced and accurate than a form of youki sensing, or even something beyond that, it seems that offensive types (confirmed and untrustworthy data book info) can be even better at sensing. As Youki sensing is the main form of sensing present in the story (along with smell, Ophelia, Clare and Miata mention smell) it seems obvious that whatever the characters are doing it has to do with youki.

Sleepy Speculator

2009-01-24, 19:02

Well it would depend on what instance your talking about, i think Miata had some sort of problem telling one thing from another anyway since she seems to have dragged Clarice into every possible yoma and Ab probably in the land of Tolouse. She can get a reading on the ghosts right up close because there they are right in front of her in Rabona at the time. Yet whilst tracking Galatea she fought many Ab's, which nearly killed Clarice god knows how many times.

Similarly Irene wouldn't be too hard pressed to sense Clare (Teresa) in her vicinity given that Clare went over her limit twice and generally used a ton of yoki. Raphealla's only visit with Clare on the other hand was directed/orchestrated by Rubul and had Jean present as well. Yet Raphealla didn't draw any conclusions or show any sort of emotion at all. And she 'knew' someone had been with Irene, but again didn't seem to care. I think it's not to much of a jump to assume that Raphealla knows quite abit about Clare, having Rubul as a handler as well, she ignores the missing Clare and instead homes in on Irene, despite Rubul then reporting Clare as missing, in effect she ignores Clare and leaves her to fight Ophelia, and doesn't bother to try and track her afterwards either. The reason we don't see Raphealla comment on it the way Irene does is because she already knows. And in recent chapters we have seen Rubul basically request Clare go and resecue Raphealla's remains from Riful, saying they wouldn't necessarily be enemies.

P.s.

I wanna thankyou for prompting me to look at that stuff chiba since i just saw the word 'special' again lol.

Rubul to Clare with regards to Raphealla...
"Even if both of you attack you cannot win against her. You see she is a little special." ch 87

Random Trainee with regards to Clare
"It's her...She's the one who had the number one's remains put into her. You know Teresa of the faint smile? The special soldier... Clare" ES 4

Clarice with regards to herself and her colored hair
"Err...I'm... I'm a little special apparently... my original hair colour was very strong so it seems like it didn't dissappear completely" Chapter 87

Now what brought about me searching for this word was the fact that Alicia and Beth were listed in the databooks as 'special' i know Raphealla is an offensive type, but that word special in claymore is seldom used. I wonder could someone more competent than me help me and check to see if the word special is used anywhere other than for Clare/Clarice and either of the soul link pairs Alicia/Beth and Raphealla/Luciella. And that i've got accurate translations si'l vous plait.

PureYoki

2009-01-24, 19:12

Pretty sure I mentioned Miata in my last post there. Let me check. Yup, I certainly did. Miata also failed to mention that Agatha was sitting in Rabona, which is probably because of her insanity but it certainly would have been some helpful information for Clarice.

I was talking about this list

As for really excellent sensors we have: Teresa, Clare, Irene, Alicia, Riful, Galatea, Renee, and Tabitha.

but never mind, it's not much of an issue. As for Agatha, yes, Miata probably realized her but she's not the smartest kid in the block. :)

I thought the theory was that sensor types were defensive, and if Miria, Miata, and Irene are using something even more advanced and accurate than a form of youki sensing, or even something beyond that, it seems that offensive types (confirmed and untrustworthy data book info) can be even better at sensing. As Youki sensing is the main form of sensing present in the story (along with smell, Ophelia, Clare and Miata mention smell) it seems obvious that whatever the characters are doing it has to do with youki.

I have doubts about Miria's abilities for known reasons, I'm looking forward to seeing more from her. Miata's type is unknown at this point, it only leaves us with Irene:

Irene's ability is a big unknown. She might not be extraordinarily skillful in yoki sensing because Teresa thought she could avoid her by suppressing her yoki. Although a speculation, I don't think Teresa could hide herself from the likes of Renee or Galatea.

It seems Irene's unknown ability was useless in detecting yoki-suppressed Teresa. But she said she understood Priscilla's strength with one look and she also estimated Rafaela was stronger than a #5. My best guess is that it's something about enhanced seeing but I don't know what she had been seeing in claymores.

I don't think Irene's ability made her superior to skilled sensors, it was just different. It seems her ability was useful in extreme conditions in which she could see her opponent and her opponent had no sensible yoki aura.

chibamonster

2009-01-24, 19:40

@PureYoki: For whatever reason, Irene located the town, hotel, and room that Teresa was in. Good sensing :D. And Irene did much better than that in the other stages I mentioned. She also knew the intricacies of Teresa's technique, how it surpassed her own in knowing the minute changes. Not all youki sensing is equal, some are better at picking out other things.

So is Irene good at sensing or not? Naturally you already know the answer, and Irene is a confirmed offensive type. Both eyes of the organization make mistakes or run into things they have never encountered before and have to figure things out. Galatea was very confused by what Alicia and Beth did but with help she figured it out. Renee is a solid eye and has been baffled several times. Galatea has been solid on pretty much everything having run into her own share of weirdness (partial awakenings, abyssals, miata, ghosts...) Irene seems to figure things out faster than almost anyone no matter what information she is using.

@Sleepy: Agreed, Alicia, Beth, Clare, and Raphaela are all confirmed special experiments. My personal guess is that Clarice is one as well as Miata. As for that applying to offensive defensive type exceptions, we would have to pick and choose from the databooks to support that theory (else ignore the databooks completely). Clare, Raphaela, and Teresa are listed as offensive and Alicia/beth are unique. So we would be accepting some of the organizations information and not other bits.

The thing that is impressive to me is that Irene knew it was Teresa's aura from a distance and that Raphaela never figures it out, even having sensed Clare being close to Irene she still had to ask, "which one of you is Clare?" And of course Clare did suppress her youki to the point that Ophelia lost her after she jumped into the river leaving Ophelia's paranoia to be the real danger, not her youki sensing. Irene still picked her out. Considering that Raphaela was trained to do the soul link, which is the highest form of youki manipulation we have seen, she must be an excellent sensor herself else her skills would be at fault for the failed soul link, not her heart.

Sleepy Speculator

2009-01-24, 20:03

I'm not saying i think their type is 'special' but this word is starting to bug me now. Clare and Raphealla for example are clearly Offensive types, which shows that rule still applies. Which is why i classify Alicia/Beth as 'defensive' by my hypothesis. Luciella is never revealed as a claymore which removes her from the picture though it's likely she's very much the same as Raphealla.

This is why i'm asking if people can help me see if any claymores apart from those i mentioned have the word 'special' used on them. I'm still incredibly dubious about the databooks but it would at least explain why they didn't put defensive.

And i do think Raphealla skillz were not upto scratch, i think she trained but wasn't built that way for it. Much like Clare could become v.good at healing through mimicing defensive types but will never be a regenerating claymore.

I'm getting more intrigued with Raphealla given that she asks that question with Rubul standing right behind her. Clare knew Raph's sigil/identification mark because Miria knew it and passed it on, but did Rubul in all honesty not bother to tell Raph what Clare's was?

Also i think Renee may know both Clarice and Clare through different means. If Renee was the trainee being trained to replace Galatea then as Galatea speculated she was observing Pieta, and despite Clarice being in the brand new, don't know anyone, and no one cares claymore slot. Renee was 'certain' that the #47 wasn't Clare by name despite the similarity. Which implies that Renee knows something about Clarice, even if it's just to hunt her down for deserting with Miata. (though she was unwilling to disclose this to Raki)

PureYoki

2009-01-24, 20:20

@ chibamonster:

I think there's a difference between being skillful at sensing and being sharp. Irene is sharp, I agree with that but how is it related to being good at sensing? We all have eyes, ears but although we receive the same information, some of us are much better at drawing conclusions from the same information.

And isn't it a stretch to say that Irene located the room? Are you sure, how do you know?

---------------------------- E D I T --------------------------

I reread your post to check whether I missed something. You believe Irene was even more skillful than new Galatea because even new Galatea, who is skillful enough to sense claymores who are on pills, couldn't sense G7 whereas Irene sensed power level of Rafaela who had been suppressed even longer than G7. I'm baffled.

And interestingly although Irene had mad sensing skills, Teresa, who knew Irene well, thought that she could avoid Irene's ultra-sharp sensing skills by suppressing her yoki!!!

We know there's an enhanced smelling ability, what if there's an enhanced seeing ability! What if Irene's enhanced eyes had a wider range of view in electromagnetic spectrum and could see otherwise invisible colours on claymores which show their yoki aura. Irene sensed Priscilla's strength with one look and Rafaela was standing right in front of her when Irene commented about Rafaela's power.

Now, there are two theories:

1) Irene was best of the best at yoki sensing. This theory doesn't explain why Teresa thought she could avoid Irene, and it's hard to believe Irene was the best sensor of all time.

2) Irene was an ordinary yoki sensor but had an enhanced seeing ability as an extra. This theory explains everything. ;)

Now, a bit of trivia. Don't take it too seriously.

Irene had pointed ears like an elf. Elves are known to be excellent archers and one of the foremost requirements of archery (http://www.olympic.org/uk/sports/programme/index_uk.asp?SportCode=AR) is sharp eyes.

Negativedark

2009-01-24, 20:22

we need spoilers

In a week. If your really desperate I can make something up. It'll most likly involve Helen and Deneve kissing to escape though.

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-24, 21:44

I looked it up at http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/defense but could not find your definition.

It seems like dictionary.com gives you entries from several dictionaries. The first one is the house dictionary, based on Random House. The one I had been looking at at the time is below that and is from American Heritage dictionary. At www.m-w.com it had the same definition which is Webster. :) At home, since I'm a bit into writting, as a hobby, I have Oxford as a bullet point under 1. has both, "*military measures or resources for protecting a country. * means of protecting something from an attack." Anyway, the dictionary isn't always the best, most precise, way of defining things, and we shouldn't say something is defined as such just because someone pulled out a definition from the dictionary. It is best to define your own definition in an argument that is more precise, which is part of what that whole, "if a tree falls in a forest," spiel is all about and meant to teach people. That is why I say, intent, is very important, which is something not in the dictionary, but may be something defined perhaps -- i am speculating -- in law books, for example what is self defense or not. I know here, at least in Texas :D, it is alright to shoot someone and kill them if they are burglarizing your house. That could be considered defending your home and property.

BTW I like your argument, but I still have a problem with it. I almost changed my mind.

Lest use your definition of defense.
Means 3 plural : resources available for disposal ; especially : material resources affording a secure life

The problem with calling a radar a defense is, it cannot afford a secure life by itself. In all your examples, there was always a reaction to what your senses picked up. What I mean by that is, if you do not react to your senses you will not be protected. You can call the reaction natural, but it's still a reaction.

There is no contradiction in that defintion: notice the word "especially". But I do agree with your point that it is part of the Defense, and not the defense. But something defensive can be part of the defense, instead of it's entirety. The concept of intent is very important in my concept of defense, and it is a cognitive response that is either instinct or thinking. But by the same concept that while radar is something primarily defensive in nature and secondarily offensive, but not the defense in its entirety, something similar can be said about Irene's Flash Sword; The flash sword is primarily offensive, and secondarily defensive in nature, but it is not the offense in its entirety of the practitioner because it is just as useless as the radar without the cognitive intent of the practitioner, which is something some others have already pointed out. I mean what use is the quick sword if you point it the wrong way when attacking an enemy? :) Or even choose not to use it at all?

Compare a shield to a radar
If you use a shield to stop an attack, you will be protected.
If you use a radar to stop an incoming missile you will not be protected. (notice I said radar, not radar + laser).

Well sure you will, if you manage to get out of the radius of the explosion by running. If your point is that you have to use your legs in order to do that, then you logic for the shield fails as well, because you have to move an arm to block. Also cognition is vital in both cases.

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-24, 22:18

Dear defensive type :p :
Personally, I believe the best course of action in a fire alarm is to find the fire and attempt to put it out [water/smother] (and only if it's hopeless then run away). Similarly, being chased by bandits, my priority would be to find a weapon which which I could cleave their heads in - unless they were robbing my appartment, of course, in which case I'd happly attempt to tear their heads off with my bare hands in the event no other instruments were handy. I guess that's just me though - my reactions are just different than yours I guess... Maybe we're just different types with different instincts or something :D

Dear Offensive Person :p :

Haven't you heard of: Stop, Drop, and Roll? I don't care if you're on fire, or even if there is a fire, once the fire alarm goes off you should: Stop, drop, and Roll, damn it! :frustrated: But honestly, I'm from Texas, so going by that logic alone that should preclude me from being any sort of defensive type. :D That reminds me of a very realistic dream I had about a year ago. Someone was knocking on the panel door, and after I walked to it and was about to open it, the expression on his face changed to one of ill-intent and he jumped to the handle and turned it before I had a chance to unlock the door. So after I stepped back from the initial shock, I smiled and told him to wait one second, as I walked to the kitchen to get a knife, and I was going to unlock that door, but then I woke up, wondering if that was some sort of premonition, but seriously, the dream was so realistic that, that is what I would've done in real life. :d So I don't think I am any kind of defensive type -- there other reasons too, obviously. But anyway, that was just an example, but attacking the burglar still can be a defensive action if you doing it because you want to protect your property; otherwise, you might be a bit psycho like yours truly.

Cyclone

2009-01-25, 00:37

Dear Offensive Person :p :

Haven't you heard of: Stop, Drop, and Roll? I don't care if you're on fire, or even if there is a fire, once the fire alarm goes off you should: Stop, drop, and Roll, damn it! :frustrated: But honestly, I'm from Texas, so going by that logic alone that should preclude me from being any sort of defensive type. :D

Offensive? Me? Impossible! I'm from Canada. That's proof enough :D

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-25, 00:55

Texas, Canada -- that should make us natural enemies. :p

chibamonster

2009-01-25, 02:11

@PureYoki: Well Irene did locate the room, so I don't think it is a stretch.

And hey, Irene might be better at sensing cloaked people than Galatea as she obviously did recognize their powers. I don't see how it is blasphemous. Galatea is a phenomenal youki sensor with an intelligence to match it. Irene, on the other hand, sensed power in people that should be impossible to detect. I didn't write the story. I am pointing it out. Quoting a guide to playing Spy in Team Fortress 2, "Just because you are cloaked does not mean you are invisible."

Either of your conclusions puts Irene as one of the best sensors, whether youki or something beyond and superior to it, and one of the smartest characters in claymore. Miata's senses are so advanced she doesn't need youki sensing and can use them on the pill, preemptively even. This is a predicament to the theory that Defensive types are better at sensing. Audrey also uses some form of sensing as she uses her Gentle Sword with her eyes closed, and we know she is not great at youki sensing.

A possible conclusion is first that there are many many types of youki sensing; preemptive, manipulative, soul link trained, ranged, targeting, Galatea's "Find Riful" trick, etc. And on top of that there also many types of sensing that are not absolutely youki dependent, which can even be superior; Audrey's gentle sword, Miata, Isley knowing Helen and Deneve were warriors, Ophelia smelling AB's, Miria sensing Clare's strength, etc.

@Cyclone: Is it wrong that when I think of Canadian Special Forces, I think of a terrorist camp somewhere on earth being annihilated by a group of highly trained terrifying camouflaged machine gun toting night vision wearing Mounties?

Awakened

2009-01-25, 02:27

There is no contradiction in that defintion: notice the word "especially". But I do agree with your point that it is part of the Defense, and not the defense. But something defensive can be part of the defense, instead of it's entirety. The concept of intent is very important in my concept of defense, and it is a cognitive response that is either instinct or thinking. But by the same concept that while radar is something primarily defensive in nature and secondarily offensive, but not the defense in its entirety, something similar can be said about Irene's Flash Sword; The flash sword is primarily offensive, and secondarily defensive in nature, but it is not the offense in its entirety of the practitioner because it is just as useless as the radar without the cognitive intent of the practitioner, which is something some others have already pointed out. I mean what use is the quick sword if you point it the wrong way when attacking an enemy? :) Or even choose not to use it at all?

I don't think the comparison between sensing and Irene's Flash Sword is a good one. Irene can actually defend herself with her sword, but she has to combine sensing with action to defend herself.

Well sure you will, if you manage to get out of the radius of the explosion by running. If your point is that you have to use your legs in order to do that, then you logic for the shield fails as well, because you have to move an arm to block. Also cognition is vital in both cases.

Lol, you try to wiggle your way out of net is set for you.
In my example you had to use the radar to defend yourself. I when to great length to prevent you from adding additional escape route, by adding (notice I said radar, and not radar + laser). I should have made the net a bit smaller to prevent any escape.:bash:

I agree with the intent part of your argument.

Awakened

2009-01-25, 02:53

Cyclone

2009-01-25, 02:55

@Cyclone: Is it wrong that when I think of Canadian Special Forces, I think of a terrorist camp somewhere on earth being annihilated by a group of highly trained terrifying camouflaged machine gun toting night vision wearing Mounties?

Saddly yes. As much as I'd love to see a mountie in camaflogue gear (especially with the hat), they are a police force - your version of the FBI - not a military force. And doubly saddly, we have so many generals and other commissioned officers, I don't think we have any actual fighting force (the handful we do have are all in Afghanistan), let alone a special fighting force. It's one of our sad national jokes really - not much left to do but laugh about it, really...

Awakened

2009-01-25, 03:10

Saddly yes. As much as I'd love to see a mountie in camaflogue gear (especially with the hat), they are a police force - your version of the FBI - not a military force. And doubly saddly, we have so many generals and other commissioned officers, I don't think we have any actual fighting force (the handful we do have are all in Afghanistan), let alone a special fighting force. It's one of our sad national jokes really - not much left to do but laugh about it, really...

lol, you all have the good old USA to protect you.:D

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-25, 03:13

I don't think the comparison between sensing and Irene's Flash Sword is a good one. Irene can actually defend herself with her sword, but she has to combine sensing with action to defend herself.

I think so. The sensing and run method of defense is a 3 component system: 6th sense, cognition, and body. The quicksword used for fighting method is a 2 component system: cognition, body. That's just one less component than the other system. If you get rid of the mind, you just have a body aimlessly doing a quicksword. Without the body, you just have something thinking about doing the quicksword.

Lol, you try to wiggle your way out of net is set for you.
In my example you had to use the radar to defend yourself. I when to great length to prevent you from adding additional escape route by adding (notice I said radar, and not radar + laser). I should have made the net a bit smaller to prevent any escape.:bash:

I am a former sysop of a Freedom of Speech BBS, back before the internet got real popular, and I have studied Philosophy, so it is only natural that I know my way around debate, you know. :D But what's the use of catching me in a net? I agree with you mostly now that sensing is part of the defense. I guess what we disagree now is that the quick sword is just part of the offense. Now what would happen if someone with yoki manipulation froze Irene's mind, and she is stuck doing an endless quick sword in the position she last faced? Is that an offense? Cognition is just as important as the technique.

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-25, 03:17

Saddly yes. As much as I'd love to see a mountie in camaflogue gear (especially with the hat), they are a police force - your version of the FBI - not a military force. And doubly saddly, we have so many generals and other commissioned officers, I don't think we have any actual fighting force (the handful we do have are all in Afghanistan), let alone a special fighting force. It's one of our sad national jokes really - not much left to do but laugh about it, really...

Wait a second. Canada is ripe to invade! 51 states. ;) Of course, that'll be the 51 states of Texas.

GundamZZ

2009-01-25, 03:29

This thread is becoming like creative writing than actual discussion. So, let's continue.

creative writing:
The skills can be divided to strategic and tactical skills.
Strategic one is for long term and political aim
The wars with Persian on Greek soils left Greek states devastated. Persian invasion hurt the Greek farms as its economy. When facing the threat from Macedon, some Greeks proposed the fighting out of border. They wanted to destroy the source of threat before its becoming. The feud of Greek states made this proposal impossible. So, they propose the decisive battles at Macedonian border.

Scratch it. I'm going to sleep.

Offtopic

My knowledge about Canadian force is limited to the information from some anime watching military weirdos. Their knowledge is limited to WWI and WWII. Canadian force was doing well because a lot of civilians were forest hunters, aka night elves. They learn the survival skill in the weird. That's why they had so many sharp shooters, even for tank combat. /end of useless knowledge

Awakened

2009-01-25, 03:34

I think so. The sensing and run method of defense is a 3 component system: 6th sense, cognition, and body. The quicksword used for fighting method is a 2 component system: cognition, body. That's just one less component than the other system. If you get rid of the mind, you just have a body aimlessly doing a quicksword. Without the body, you just have something thinking about doing the quicksword.

I am a former sysop of a Freedom of Speech BBS, back before the internet got real popular, and I have studied Philosophy, so it is only natural that I know my way around debate, you know. :D But what's the use of catching me in a net? I agree with you mostly now that sensing is part of the defense. I guess what we disagree now is that the quick sword is just part of the offense. Now what would happen if someone with yoki manipulation froze Irene's mind, and she is stuck doing an endless quick sword in the position she last faced? Is that an offense? Cognition is just as important as the technique.

I do not disagree on how important sensing is, just on how to classify it.

I think it's neutral (not offense or defense), your intend determines what you use the information for.:p

You could have used your hand to move the radar to defend yourself against the missiles if you wanted too. Just to be fair.

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-25, 03:40

This thread is becoming like creative writing than actual discussion. So, let's continue.

creative writing:
The skills can be divided to strategic and tactical skills.
Strategic one is for long term and political aim
The wars with Persian on Greek soils left Greek states devastated. Persian invasion hurt the Greek farms as its economy. When facing the threat from Macedon, some Greeks proposed the fighting out of border. They wanted to destroy the source of threat before its becoming. The feud of Greek states made this proposal impossible. So, they propose the decisive battles at Macedonian border.

Scratch it. I'm going to sleep.

Ah man! I was waiting for you to advance enough in history to hear about how Alexander the Great postponing conquest to hold a funeral for his horse, Bucephalus, making all the surrounding heads of states attend.

:upset:

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-25, 03:47

I do not disagree on how important sensing is, just on how to classify it.

I think it's neutral (not offense or defense), your intend determines what you use the information for.:p

http://www.alcor.org/Library/images/circular.jpg

:eyespin: So I take it you didn't buy the argument that someone would instinctively react to dangers on the Radar, while someone would have to be motivated in order to use a radar to attack? Defense in this case is reactive -- reacting to the environment -- while offense has to be premeditated.

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-25, 03:54

Awakened

2009-01-25, 03:54

http://www.alcor.org/Library/images/circular.jpg

:eyespin: So I take it you didn't buy the argument that someone would instinctively react to dangers on the Radar, while someone would have to be motivated in order to use a radar to attack? Defense in this case is reactive -- reacting to the environment -- while offense has to be premeditated.

Instinct work both ways. A predator naturally attack when they see a prey, no premeditation required.

Awakened

2009-01-25, 04:13

BTW, offtopic, :heh: what do you guys speculate is going to happen in the next chapter? :D I'm sure I already mentioned this, but I think that yagi is going to be mean and leave us with another cliffhanger. I think we'll rejoin Clare, Cynthia and Yuma. We already know she intends to head to Riful, because it is her nature to help a fellow warrior in need. She won't get much argument from Cyntia since she feels good about helping people, which showed at her joy last time that nobody got hurt. Poor, Poor Yuma.

To many possibility, Riful/Renee/Clare, Helen/Denven/Isley, Raki/Pricsilla, Miria.

If its about Helen's group. I think Isley is going to give Helen a power-up (directly or indirectly).
Most likely we might see Riflu. Yagi has been torturing Renee for months, he might feel sorry for her and send Clare to save her.

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-25, 04:15

Instinct work both ways. A predator naturally attack when they see a prey, no premeditation required.

Which predator? I don't think that is entirely true for every case. I'm sure some predators would ignore you, if they aren't hungry. But that is neither here nor there: what is important is how we, or Claymores would react. You could say that it would be instinctive for a Claymore to attack a yoma; I would say you're wrong. Evidence seems to indicate that unless some pay is involved, a Claymore may not feel obligated to get rid of a Yoma. In fact, it seems like you can get yourself sent on some AB Hunts, if you needlessly go around dispatching yomas without permission. So I say: In the case of a Claymore attacking a Yoma, premeditation is still true.

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-25, 04:20

Awakened

2009-01-25, 04:26

Which predator? I don't think that is entirely true for every case. I'm sure some predators would ignore you, if they aren't hungry. But that is neither here nor there: what is important is how we, or Claymores would react. You could say that it would be instinctive for a Claymore to attack a yoma; I would say you're wrong. Evidence seems to indicate that unless some pay is involved, a Claymore may not feel obligated to get rid of a Yoma. In fact, it seems like you can get yourself sent on some AB Hunts, if you needlessly go around dispatching yomas without permission. So I say: In the case of a Claymore attacking a Yoma, premeditation is still true.

Would Cynthia, Miata and Clare fall under your categorization of Claymores?

The military trains its solders relentlessly so they can act on instinct.

clarakiss~

2009-01-25, 04:59

i say those 'things' were created by the organization without a doubt. they're quite similar to female claymores. the org probably release them every once in awhile and feast on humans, yoma and awakened beings they come across.

one of the them didn't do anything to dietrich, which explains they are from the organization. idk, we all have our opinions on the issue. ^^;

Cyclone

2009-01-25, 05:02

To many possibility, Riful/Renee/Clare, Helen/Denven/Isley, Raki/Pricsilla, Miria.

If its about Helen's group. I think Isley is going to give Helen a power-up (directly or indirectly).
Most likely we might see Riflu. Yagi has been torturing Renee for months, he might feel sorry for her and send Clare to save her.

I had a dream recently which featured chapter 88 with Galatea-sama in it - don't remember anything else from it though. I think I may just be suffering Galatea-sama withdrawl syndrome...

---

@Gansta:
I don't think there'd that much opposition to the 51st state idea - the border is a nuisance anyways - but only as long as you don't annex Quebec. Learn from our mistakes!

chibamonster

2009-01-25, 05:28

As for what will happen in the next chapter we have a situation simmilar to when Clarice was left with a decision when she and Galatea realized Agatha had been toying with Miata. Deneve and Helen are in a reactionary state. They have lost their cloak, they are fighting a losing battle against the strongest male warrior in the history of the island. Isley is busy with them, is not happy, and obviously has had something happen to him in the last 7 years to develop his character. I do not think the demons are there to dance. So those are the forces in movement. The character who has choices left is Deitrich; she has to decide what to do.

Deitrich has a huge decision to make. Everyone else is locked up around her and made their decisions. She is surrounded by monsters. On Renee's story line, Clare Tabby and Yuma are the ones who have to decide to do. Renee is going to make a run for it, but she knows that no matter what she does she is screwed. Her options are severely limited. And of course Raciella will awaken no matter what people try. Tension in stories must be released in an explosion, or lead to a more dramatic climax. Raki still has Priscilla with him, which is a waiting time bomb for Clare's goals in life. Raki and Priscilla are close to where Renee was captured. Clare has been given information about Renee, Raph, and she knows Riful was after youki sensors. Reunions in Claymore happen during battles so this might be a good one for Clare x Raki.

Choices in Claymore have consequences that have to be lived with and usually the consequences are severe, even if the choice is a good one. So I think Deitrich has to do something in this next chapter. Does she run to help? She does not seem like the type who can walk away from this, though she is out gunned on all sides and it is obvious the Demons terrify her. They scared her enough that she wanted to warn her saviors Helen and Deneve about them. If the demons go after Isley (like velocaraptors after the T rex in Jurassic Park) then maybe Helen and Deneve will be able to make an escape with Deitrichs help, but they have lost their cloak so they are now on everyones radar. A bleak look is that neither survives and Deitrich has to convey a message to the others. I am guessing that at least one of them dies here, but hope they do not.

Something I really hope for this chapter is Isley giving us some information about what happened to him this last while. All returning parties give us information about what they have been up to during the time skip, even if they do not tell us everything, and we know nothing about Isley. So either this chapter or the next one Isley, or someone like Raki or the MiB's, will tell us what has been happening with the Silver King of the North/South these past 7 years.

Creative Writing: You know that part of the movie The Rock where the special forces team comes up out of the water in full diving gear with their guns ready? I imagine that same thing for Mounties. Of course they are doing that with SCUBA gear on their horses too. http://freepages.sports.rootsweb.com/~rberko1/Wrestling/WWF/Champs/IC/020Mountie.jpghttp://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/green-beret-1.jpghttp://www.citadel.edu/nrotc/Navy/Communities/SEAL/seal%20gun.jpghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4b/Navy_SEALs_comming_out_of_water.JPEG
It seems mustaches are popular among special forces.
Sure it might not be what people would call accurate, but does that make it less enjoyable an image? I submit that it does not :D.
...So keep the border to Quebexico...

PureYoki

2009-01-25, 06:06

Well Irene did locate the room, so I don't think it is a stretch.

I think this information is based on the assumption that Irene was the best sensor among them, including Priscilla because I reread chapter 19, they never said Irene located the room. Anyway it isn't that important unless you are arguing Irene located Teresa from long, long distances. In that case, please elaborate which part of the manga showed us that Irene located the room and esp. from that far.

And hey, Irene might be better at sensing cloaked people than Galatea as she obviously did recognize their powers. I don't see how it is blasphemous. Galatea is a phenomenal youki sensor with an intelligence to match it. Irene, on the other hand, sensed power in people that should be impossible to detect. I didn't write the story. I am pointing it out. Quoting a guide to playing Spy in Team Fortress 2, "Just because you are cloaked does not mean you are invisible."

Let's analyze the options:

1) Irene might have enhanced seeing (or some similar ability), which explains how she sensed Priscilla or Rafaela's power.

2) Irene was just good at sensing yoki aura of completely cloaked people. Problems with this theory:

a) Teresa thought Irene would fail to sense her. This is extremely important because you continuously avoid this point, Teresa thought Irene couldn't sense her if she suppressed her yoki, what exactly does this tell us?

b) Rafaela had been suppressed for years, her yoki aura was nonexistent to be seen by yoki-sensors. There's no trick to sense those but you can't sense what isn't there. You have to use another method like Miata's abilities to sense them because yoki-sensing simply doesn't work on them.

Either of your conclusions puts Irene as one of the best sensors, whether youki or something beyond and superior to it, and one of the smartest characters in claymore. Miata's senses are so advanced she doesn't need youki sensing and can use them on the pill, preemptively even. This is a predicament to the theory that Defensive types are better at sensing. Audrey also uses some form of sensing as she uses her Gentle Sword with her eyes closed, and we know she is not great at youki sensing.

Are you implying a connection between being smart and being offensive? :D

1) If Irene did indeed have enhanced seeing (or a similar ability), which could be useful only under special circumstances, IMO it doesn't make her on par with excellent yoki sensors in terms of sensing.

2) Are we sure Miata is offensive type because you keep giving her as an example?

3) Every claymore possesses basic yoki-sensing skills, including Audrey. Claymores (except Irene :D ) don't sense yoki with their eyes, so closing the eyes is no problem and maybe it's even better for concentration.

A possible conclusion is first that there are many many types of youki sensing; preemptive, manipulative, soul link trained, ranged, targeting, Galatea's "Find Riful" trick, etc. And on top of that there also many types of sensing that are not absolutely youki dependent, which can even be superior; Audrey's gentle sword, Miata, Isley knowing Helen and Deneve were warriors, Ophelia smelling AB's, Miria sensing Clare's strength, etc.

Not that it matters but why do you think Audrey's sensing is not yoki dependent? Why are you so sure Isley sensed Helen's yoki, Helen later gave Isley a run for his money just because her yoki was suppressed?! Miria didn't show us any ability to indicate that her statement about Clare wasn't a hunch. Ophelia's close-range smelling ability had very limited uses, just like Irene's.

And my conclusion about yoki-sensing is that basic yoki-sensors can't outclass gifted yoki-sensors in any yoki-sensing area. (Give me an example if you disagree.) One can't be extremely precise at detecting minute yoki flows and at the same time fail on bigger scale, it doesn't make sense at all.

chibamonster

2009-01-25, 06:52

PureYoki: Irene was the best sensor among them. Sophia and Noel ask Irene if Priscilla is over her limit yet, and she explains that she is not (chapter 23 page 6). And you are right, Irene knocks on the different doors in the hotel asking if Teresa is in or not. Room service? I think not. Remember what I said about visual information?

We have not been told Miata's type, but as she constantly is attacking everything and reattached her hands instead of regrew them, the tables are leaning offensive here. She defends others at the expense of herself and focuses entirely on killing the enemy. Who else did that? Jean and Clare. What makes you think she is defensive?

I don't know why you keep looking at Teresa as evidence for Irene not being good at sensing. I EXPECT Teresa to be better than Irene as Teresa is phenomenal at youki sensing, and it shocks me that Irene knew the right town to go to and walked straight to Teresa (in the right room even). I listed plenty of other reasons why Irene was good, don't insult me by making me type them all again. Teresa also recognizes that the hunters sent against her are very strong and that she is not the type to suppress her youki so they cannot find her. Is that because it is not in her personality or not in her ability?

How about Renee failing to sense Priscilla? She is cloaked for all intensive purposes. Same with Raciella. Renee didn't know Raciella was there until Duff brought her in. After some serious looking Renee (the eye of the organization) was able to sense their incredible powers, and yes Raciella has been cloaked for 7 years (so sensing cloaked characters is possible). Irene sensed Priscilla and Raphaela's power when they were even MORE CLOAKED with a single look. Irene wins. Oh, and Teresa sensed Raphaela too, and she was very impressed by Trainee Teresa. Teresa also figured out Priscilla's potential. Teresa and Irene win.

And Renee and Clare against Riful do show us that you can fail in sensing even if you are gifted. There are tricks to learn.

PureYoki

2009-01-25, 08:00

Irene was the best sensor among them. Sophia and Noel ask Irene if Priscilla is over her limit yet, and she explains that she is not (chapter 23 page 6). And you are right, Irene knocks on the different doors in the hotel asking if Teresa is in or not. Room service? I think not. Remember what I said about visual information?

May I remind you that Teresa had stopped suppressing at that point? Chapter 23 page 6 only shows Noel asking for confirmation (?) but even if there's a high possibility that Irene was best among them (excluding Priscilla?), it doesn't matter because we are trying to find out whether Irene was an excellent sensor or not. Flora was able to sense Clare going over her limit, so it doesn't mean much.

We have not been told Miata's type, but as she constantly is attacking everything and reattached her hands instead of regrew them, the tables are leaning offensive here. She defends others at the expense of herself and focuses entirely on killing the enemy. Who else did that? Jean and Clare. What makes you think she is defensive?

Well, I agree Miata is more offensive than defensive but we aren't sure yet. Renee, being a defensive type, attached her legs because attaching is easier than regenerating. And perhaps only yoki sensing (not other types of sensing like seeing, smelling) has a connection with defensive claymores.

I don't know why you keep looking at Teresa as evidence for Irene not being good at sensing.

Because it's the main point that proves Irene's ability didn't depend on yoki-sensing but something else. Otherwise Irene would be able to sense Teresa no matter what, and as a consequence Teresa would know Irene could sense her anyway and didn't attempt to suppress herself at all.

I EXPECT Teresa to be better than Irene as Teresa is phenomenal at youki sensing, and it shocks me that Irene knew the right town to go to and walked straight to Teresa (in the right room even).

Shocked? So you think there's a huge inconsistency which is shocking because Teresa only noticed them when they entered the town whereas Irene noticed Teresa from far far away.

chiba, why do you act like we know how they found Teresa? Maybe they just asked people around whether they've seen a claymore or not. Even Raki can do and is doing that kind of search now. I think, instead of being shocked, you must look for other possibilities.

I listed plenty of other reasons why Irene was good, don't insult me by making me type them all again.

And I explained how Irene might have sensed Priscilla or Rafaela, don't insult me by making me type it again. Don't insult me by making me tell you the difference between being sharp and being good at sensing.

Teresa also recognizes that the hunters sent against her are very strong and that she is not the type to suppress her youki so they cannot find her. Is that because it is not in her personality or not in her ability?

Good to know you acknowledged Teresa could suppress her yoki to avoid being found. Now if only you can explain how Irene could sense Rafaela but couldn't sense Teresa? (You can't possibly think Teresa was more cloaked than Rafaela.) If Irene didn't have some sort of enhanced seeing, there's a huge, I mean huge inconsistency in the story. You know Yagi sensei is better than that, right?

How about Renee failing to sense Priscilla? She is cloaked for all intensive purposes. Same with Raciella. Renee didn't know Raciella was there until Duff brought her in. After some serious looking Renee (the eye of the organization) was able to sense their incredible powers, and yes Raciella has been cloaked for 7 years (so sensing cloaked characters is possible). Irene sensed Priscilla and Raphaela's power when they were even MORE CLOAKED with a single look. Irene wins. Oh, and Teresa sensed Raphaela too, and she was very impressed by Trainee Teresa. Teresa also figured out Priscilla's potential. Teresa and Irene win.

1) Teresa didn't even realize Priscilla until she introduced herself and she realized Priscilla's strength when she was fighting with Priscilla.

2) Irene sensed Priscilla and Rafaela with a single look. Yes, correct, with a single look. She wouldn't have sensed Teresa if Teresa continued to suppress herself because she was out of her sight. Do the math.

3) Renee could sense Raciella's power by deep scanning just like Alicia did to Riful. If Irene was skillful enough to deep-scan people even better than Galatea, Teresa could never escape from her even if she was suppressed.

And Renee and Clare against Riful do show us that you can fail in sensing even if you are gifted. There are tricks to learn.

Riful and esp. Priscilla in their human form are very hard to detect. I believe Irene also wouldn't sense Riful unless Riful was right in front of her. There's a connection between Irene's ability and seeing.

Awakened

2009-01-25, 09:55

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-25, 11:26

Would Cynthia, Miata and Clare fall under your categorization of Claymores?

The military trains its solders relentlessly so they can act on instinct.

What was the reason Clare speculated that Cynthia got sent to the north again? It had seemed that org had also sent Clare on a suicide mission for her actions, before we found out that Rubel was behind it, but he probably pointed it out to the org to get permission to get rid of her.

Also, Cynthia and Clare's attacking yomas in this case would be defensive, in that they are defending human beings from harm. Them using their senses to locate the yumas is a defensive use either way, because once they do that, they have removed the threat of being ambushed. They also decided wheter to save a village or not. Now going Berserk is a different animal; that is really what one case of attacking instinctively is. With Miata you have a point, but that was also part of the reason she was no match for that former #2

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-25, 11:43

I had a dream recently which featured chapter 88 with Galatea-sama in it - don't remember anything else from it though. I think I may just be suffering Galatea-sama withdrawl syndrome...

Was she fully clothed? :d

---

@Gansta:
I don't think there'd that much opposition to the 51st state idea - the border is a nuisance anyways - but only as long as you don't annex Quebec. Learn from our mistakes!

Well I just thought of a problem: If we'd annex Canada, then Texas won't be the biggest State anymore -- there is no such thing as Alaska, there is no such thing as Alaska.

PureYoki

2009-01-25, 11:45

As for the ZACS, I don't think the org is responsible for them. From Dietrich's comments, they all seem to come from something like "that place," and she seemed surprised that they already returned. Well the org maybe responsible, but the Claymores don't know about it, like them not knowing that the org is responsible for Yomas; that makes more sense, actually.

I think these zombies are the product of the other side of the war because

1) They don't emit yoki, or at least none of our trio noticed them.

2) They kill (eat?) people, how else was half of the south destroyed? Dietrich said "Another town is gone" after they headed to the town.

Ok, here's a spoiler for chapter 88. :D

Zombies enter the town and people start to run away. Isley confronts them and hits one of them with his arrows. Helen suggests to run away but Deneve stops her. Other zombies start to transform and the scene changes.

Clare, Cynthia and Yuma sense yoki auras on their way and guess one of them is Renee. Clare wants to have a look but Cynthia reminds her Miria's orders and say they may end up dead. Clare says they'll not fight, she'll just make a proposition to Riful and they head to Riful's lair.

Meanwhile, Renee has been trying to awaken Raciella but purposely fails. "It's useless" she says, "that thing is dead." Riful remarks she either awakens Raciella or becomes Dauf's new toy. Renee stares in fear.

In the last page, we go back to Rabona. Miria and Galatea are having a conversation, Galatea says "Do you think they'll return unharmed?" and Miria responds "I believe Clare can take care of herself." Suddenly Galatea senses a huge amount of yoki release and says "What in earth is this? I've never sensed something like this before," and the chapter ends.

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-25, 12:12

I think it is time for one of the big enemies to die. It'll probably be between Isley and Riful, so things are not looking too good for Isley. Riful will probably survive her run in with Clare for one reason: she wanted to play mother to Raciella and manipulate her. That is perfect setup for her plans to come together, and for her to be offed by Raciella the second she betrays the child monster. Alicia and Beth might die before Riful as well, because there are too many links that bound Alicia and Beth to Raciella. Raciella has been marked as the failed experiement, while, while flawed, Alicia and Beth have been marked as a successful version, and show the orgs arrogance. There isn't much more that Isley can contribute to the story without prolonging it; that is why he'll probably go first. Helen and Deneve probably will survive; just a hunch.

I don't think Raki is going to be reunited with Clare so soon. It won't happen until after Clare saves Renee and Riful leaves with a child Raciella. The one who might die there is Duff, and Riful won't show too much sorrow, because although he is her man, the awakened mind she has lives for the moment; just my take on that. Actually, I favor that Clare almost finds Raki after the next Riful arc, but Raki got somehow separated from Priscilla, and Clare takes on Priscilla thinking she is Raki's. From a writing standpoint it can be setup so perfectly. Priscilla acting like Chibi clare, losing her will to speak; Clare not sensing the Awakened Being in Priscilla; Priscilla not sensing the Teresa in Clare. And then eventually, Clare will have to drop her cloak. There is some lesson there for Clare to learn -- an internal conflict to make.

As for those Mounties coming out of the great lakes to attack Chicago -- yay! -- well they'll be all weighed down from the extra poundage of water, and will be sitting ducks in the water.

Cyclone

2009-01-25, 12:34

Was she fully clothed? :d

The worst part is... I forget. :upset:
I don't think I'd be confident in putting money either way though.
Well, whatever it was, it left me happy.

-----

About Teresa - I don't see why people seem to think she could suppress her youki - at least the way Raphaela and the Ghosts are able to. She may have been able to control her youki output to some extent, but as an active Claymore it is doubtful she could suppress to zero output. Besides, Teresa has one big disadvantage - her youki was so immense, that even if she suppressed 99.99% of it, she'd still have a bigger youki signature than Clare.

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-25, 13:11

I believe in the theory that you can hide your inner yoki in an outer yoki shell, much like Raciella is doing now. Teresa, probably could have suppressed her yoki, after all she thought about it when she sensed Irene an co., but then decided it wasn't her style and someone like Irene probably wouldn't fall for it anyway. As for the yoki level when one is under 10%, it really can't tell you much about a Claymore's strength, because it took for her eyes to change colors for Irene to finally know that. I guess Irene wasn't the eye either, because she couldn't probe Teressa and tell, but then maybe Teressa could've been hiding her true strength on purpose, using the outer layer to hide the inner aura. Personally, I suspect that Teresa was the Eye of her generation.

Sleepy Speculator

2009-01-25, 13:33

If i may interject Irene didn't need much info to home in on Teresa, and Teresa knew that, and even if she suppressed her yoki she wouldn't get far with Clare in tow.

To put it bluntly Teresa threw a huge marker up when she killed the yoma in that town, as for anyone with radar a blip just dissappeared and humans don't tend to score many yoma kills to be fair, Renee must have ran to get to the town where Raki is because unless she was supposed to kill that yoma she was investigating pretty much right away. Similarly it was pretty much implied that Riful used yoma as a screen of fodder to warn her of approaching claymores since they do absolutely nothing to benefit her battle potential. And it seems Duff probably became aware the moment Clare had finished mopping the floor with a group of them. About 7 she killed i think.

Now also of interest is in that fight Clare 'defended' herself in midair using quicksword against the par the course words of what the yoma thought, about not being able to defend from multiple attacks whilst in mid air, after she jumped. This is exactly the same as Irene wiping out two yoma jumping at her, not a defence but an offence.

Okay before i get carried away, Irene and co know Teresa can't move at anything faster than a human pace, she's got Clare with her, she just left a location where she was last confirmed or seen, they go there, ping *missing yoma* i wonder who could have done that? Not hard to figure out. In Teresa's thought bubble "Hmmph... now we'll have to leave town" They probably didn't even have to move very far. Everyone in town knows where the claymore is staying they don't even know what the others are there for "what the!? are the claymores fighting each other?" Irene doesn't even need to use yoki sensing to find Teresa.

Secondly when it came to Priscilla i'm sure she said it was only after seeing her fight, ie not using any yoki yet being uber strong that she relinquished her position, that is the 'one look' that she is talking about. Irene says 'i suspect her latent abilities are greater than Teresas' not 'i know her blah blah'

And finally with Raphealla we know from Clare who is a superb yoki sensor and Jean a competent #9 that she has no presence whatsoever. When Irene looks at Raphealla, there's no indication of yoki sensing (closed eyes) or any such thing. What she did do was ask her name and got a response. *If* Irene knew who Raphealla was then the whole conversation is just a wind up on Irene's part after she figures out who she's talking to. The mention of the scar, the barb about being #5 etc. Raphealla's retort is to call her Ilena the deserter as if it's her name, and to comment about her missing arms... The whole thing looks as childish as the Noel/Sophia haha you got cut, better than getting kicked by Teresa thing.

Also to put this in context of the latest chapters who do you think the Ab that Clare&Co killed was likely in league with? It's in the West...Clare couldn't have said 'here i am' any louder and between her and Cynthia they sensed what 28 or so blips but homed in on one of only two Ab's that Cynthia could bother mentioning, was around. And none of those blips was apparently a claymore 'soldier' so all were yoma.

I get the feeling that we're gonna see some Galatea/Clarice master/sensei trainging montage, followed by some helpful info and a cut to someone else.

Edit: There's no point Teresa suppressing her yoki they are too close, and she already blew her cover when she took off her cloak which she was wearing to avoid attention... Contrast Clare who was walking around on yoki pills, looking like a guy/sounding like a guy, and was only found by Galatea 'after' she decided to go and fight the biggest Ab in the West and all it's little minions.

irvinethearcher

2009-01-25, 14:23

Chiba, I agree with Pure Yoki that Irene might not be the best at yoki sensing. I also agree with your earlier statement that there is more than one type of sensing.

Irene seems to have the same type of sensing ability as Miata. Galatea that is considered God'eye, could not sense the ghost, but Miata was able to measure all of there strength. If you compare that situation with Irene measuring Raphael's strength, you can see the similarities.

There is absolutely nothing which indicates that irene has a sixth sense like miata. Miata is special. So i tought at first but after reading episode 38. Indeed, how could irene know raphaellas power without measuring her somehow? I think that yagi must have made a mistake because there should be no way for irene to judge raphaellas strength without knowing her, and according to the manga, she didn't know her.
IF she had the sixth sense like miata yagi must have thought 10 rounds ahead.
And if he did it on purpose, what purpose would he have in mind?
That clare inherited it by taking irene's arm?

Cyclone

2009-01-25, 14:33

The point is though that Teresa never went around suppressed fully.
We found out from Deneve/Helen in this chapter that even humans with no youki sensing can pick up someone who has huge amounts of youki as someone with a dangerous Aura.
Teresa never had a problem intimidating towns people to pay because, as her handler said, that even though they don't know the rankings, they know it's someone special. I think the villagers sensed her "dangerous aura" aka youki. Ergo, I don't think Teresa was in the habit of suppressing her youki. Sure, she rarely used her powers, but didn't suppress them either.
From the fight with Rosemary and the "if I don't do this from time to time, I feel like I forget how", Teresa showed she had no interest in being cloaked, and purposefully occasionally used her youki.
Youki suppressing is not somehting you can just turn on and off at will either - otherwise Helen and Deneve would not have so much of a problem right now. Thus Teresa was not invisible to the hunting parties.

PureYoki

2009-01-25, 14:34

After reading Cyclone's, Gangsta Spanksta's, Sleepy Speculator's and irvinethearcher's posts, I thought it over:

1) Even after Priscilla released 10% of her yoki, Irene later couldn't distinguish her yoki signature. In chapter 23 she said "Both yoma auras have grown but one is far beyond the other. Whose is it?" Wasn't she supposed to know which yoki aura was Priscilla's?

2) Teresa was as skillful as an eye and she certainly knew one member of the execution squad was Irene (both from her yoki signature and strength level) because they had already met in the past. If suppressing her yoki aura was indeed useless, Yagi-sensei tricked us (ok, tricked me :) ) to believe that she really had the ability to hide herself.

These are just two examples. Not a criticism but I guess this is Yagi-sensei's style. He sometimes sacrifices a bit of consistency to keep the tension alive, create further interest and encourage discussion. There are no established rules, every rule can be broken, any statement by any character may be misleading. When we (ok mostly I :) ) go into much detail, it becomes very hard to create theories that don't contradict anything in the story because sometimes some elements of the story contradict itself.

So chiba, other members make me find out that all attempts to have a resolution is futile because both of us are right from our point of view. If a weightlifter can sometimes lift 500 pounds and sometimes can't lift 100 pounds, we can talk until morning and still not reach a conclusion about his strength. ;)

Gooral

2009-01-25, 14:38

I think that yagi must have made a mistake because there should be no way for irene to judge raphaellas strength without knowing her, and according to the manga, she didn't know her.
As I've written before (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=2077778&postcount=1973) Irene figured out that warrior that managed to be alive for so long that his youki had disappeared and despite that she was still acting on organizations orders must be very strong and valuable to the org.

Awakened

2009-01-25, 14:45

Awakened

2009-01-25, 14:48

As I've written before (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=2077778&postcount=1973) Irene figured out that warrior that managed to be alive for so long that his youki had disappeared and despite that she was still acting on organizations orders must be very strong and valuable to the org.

Your theory does not explain how Irene new that Priscilla was strong by just looking at her.

MisterJB

2009-01-25, 14:56

Your theory does not explain how Irene new that Priscilla was strong by just looking at her.

I might be wrong but I think Irene saw Priscilla figthing

chibamonster

2009-01-25, 14:56

@PureYoki: As I said, even the eyes of the organization make mistakes and encounter new situations they do not understand. Renee missed Priscilla, Riful, and Raciella in the space of a few chapters. When she knew where to look she got them. Galatea could not believe someone went over their limit and only figured it out the second time she saw it. Clare did not know Riful was even there until Galatea told her the secret to sensing her. Clare also missed Duff because he had his rods around. Clare did not know how Galatea made Duff miss her until Riful explained it. Mistakes in new situations do not make you a bad sensor. Even the best make mistakes. It is better to look at the accomplishments than the failures unless you want to show that no one can sense youki.

Irene ran into a situation that no one has ever seen in Claymore; Teresa and Priscilla fighting with their youki powering them up. Teresa lost her ability to read fine youki movements in the fight, something she had never encountered before. And Irene did figure out that Teresa was the one with a bigger youki (look in the Army of Teresa thread for my translation because the scans missed it).

Miria, Riful, and the youki manipulating AB figured out Clare's arm was not her own. That is raw youki sensing, so Miria does have some definite skill on her for youki sensing. The youki manipulating AB didn't figure it out until Clare attacked him. Same for Riful as she watched Clare fight Duff. Miria knew without seeing Clare use it.

Either Yagi is inconsistant or he meant to show that Irene had sharp senses and a sharp mind. I am leaning towards Yagi doing it intentionally as opposed to making up my own theory.

So just to clarify your theory: Youki sensors are defensive types except for Clare. Offensive types can actually be better at sensing but they have to use something beyond just youki sensing. Intelligence can make up for an inability to sense youki and actually give someone a keener insight than youki sensing.

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-25, 15:03

There is absolutely nothing which indicates that irene has a sixth sense like miata. Miata is special. So i tought at first but after reading episode 38. Indeed, how could irene know raphaellas power without measuring her somehow? I think that yagi must have made a mistake because there should be no way for irene to judge raphaellas strength without knowing her, and according to the manga, she didn't know her.
IF she had the sixth sense like miata yagi must have thought 10 rounds ahead.
And if he did it on purpose, what purpose would he have in mind?
That clare inherited it by taking irene's arm?

She could've gotten more powerful in the time that she was a hermit. That's a good enough explanation for me, even without getting into the details why.

@Cyclone: I wouldn't go that far: I mean we the readers and viewers also felt that there was something special about her from the moment we saw her; at least, I did. It can be the way she carries herself, her body language, her confidence, her faint smile, and the ease she disposes yoma with. As for yoki suppression, that is only one way to hide your true power. Hiding your inner aura inside an outer shell is another possibility. Oh yeah, one more thing in Irene's favor is that she had been suppressing her yoki herself, so perhaps she learned a way to look around that, that Galatea has no experience with. Renee was able to look into a cloaked Raciella, get passed the supression, and then get passed the small outer layer of the speck hiding the immense power.

PureYoki

2009-01-25, 15:15

@ chiba:

English translation is "Both yoma auras have grown but one is far beyond the other. Whose is it?"

Is this translation wrong? At this point, obviously Irene was unable to distinguish Priscilla's yoki aura.

And about my theory, yes, you pretty much summed it up. I'll have a better idea when we learn Miata's type.

clarakiss~

2009-01-25, 15:29

with helen and deneve releasing a large amount of their yoki, it may be a huge mistake and now the zombie claymores will be targeting them two.

isley might be acting as a decoy for raki and priscilla since priscilla's still unstable and isley's luring the zombie claymores to him by giving off huge amount of yoki.

and also, i think isley, raki and priscilla are all still in good terms - raki wouldn't say priscilla belongs to a relative if they are not.

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-25, 15:44

I doubt an Abyssal is that Noble :D Riful keeps her word, a sort of honor, but would she be willing to risk her neck for someone else out of humanity? I doubt it; they've lost their human mind and values for Awakened Being ones.

chibamonster

2009-01-25, 16:56

@Pure Yoki: yes the translation has inaccuracies, especially on the next few pages. Check the army of Teresa thread here to see what Irene really figures out about Teresa. Actually it is hard to link to group discussions so instead,

@Droplet: yeah, I think Teresa knows her limits. Which is something very scary to think about.

I also found something really interesting in Irene's comments from the raw. But don't tell anyone, they will just get angry. I was looking to see what Irene really said, as the term "just enough youki to make her eyes turn gold" could mean just barely 10%. The word used that is translated to 'just' is "teido" 程度【ていど】 degree; amount; grade; standard; of the order of (following a number). The way I've heard it used, especially in manga, is "ano teido ka?" which is often said meaning, "is that all you've got?" so it really could mean just, or it could just mean to the degree which Teresa's eyes change color. It seems to be on the low end to me, but my translator skills are not that good for written material yet.

Well, I found something more interesting. Irene does not say, "Teresa repelled Priscilla's insane strength with just enough youki release to change her eyes." She says, "I can't believe it! Teresa is exceeding Priscilla's insane power with only enough youki release to change her eye color!" The word used is Uwamawaru. (上回る(P);【うわまわる】 to exceed).

And on the next page, she does not say "That is the true nature of Teresa's strength." She says, "Is this really Teresa's true strength when she has released her youki?"

Maybe I should post this for others to see as well. But I doubt even this would transform cynics into believers. And I am also realizing some of these translations are really bad...

...

Sorry BishounoTeresa, I just found it the other day . Now I'm thinking I might have to read the entire manga in Japanese, which I haven't done yet as I feel like I am in elementary school again with I read Japanese. It is a humbling experience.

I looked over the distort vs. change part. and the word used there is henka suru (変化【へんか】 (n,vs) (1) change; variation; alteration; mutation; transition; transformation; transfiguration; metamorphosis; (2) variety; diversity; (3) inflection; declension; conjugation; (4) sidestepping (sumo)) which apparently means a lot of things, from change to transform.

It is also interesting to note that the word that is translated as "limit" when Irene says "That girl doesn't even know her limit" (genkai) actually has another word attached to it which was not translated (genkaiten) which translates to "breaking point" or "threshold" more than limit.

Also, when Teresa says, "there is so much youki coming from all parts of her body that I can't read the flow." She more accurately says, "There is so much youki coming from all parts of her body that I can't read the fine details of the flow." Teresa was not blinded by the youki, she just couldn't see the minute parts of it. The word used is komaka (細か【こまか】 small; fine; detailed; stingy)

I am also noticing that Claymores have some really really rough japanese.

As Teresa vs Priscilla was a monumental event, I can't blame the confusion that they all faced looking at the death wall of youki. Irene absolutely knew Teresa's signature. It is what drew her out of hiding to save Clare from Ophelia. So by deduction she knew Priscilla's. However, this was just a blinding amount that made figuring anything out confusing. Teresa lost her ability to preemptively read during the fight, and she is one of the best sensors in the story. The scans miss that Irene does figure out who is superior.

And what about Miria sensing Clare's arm being different without Clare using it? Is that not exceptional youki sensing?

Also, I submit that Raphaela must be a good youki sensor. Why? The soul link is the pinnacle of all youki manipulation, similar to what Galatea does only perfect. Raphaela's skill is never called into question, her heart is. Raphaela has to be good at sensing to be good at manipulation. Clare, a good sensor, is stunned at how difficult manipulation is when she brings Jean back. Jean is unable to manipulate youki and can only provide a source for Clare to align her own youki to. Raphaela is used as a hunter killer and Rubel's pet. She excels at finding people and being covert in general. Galatea also mentions that she will be around to pick of the deserters from Pieta if any exist (Galatea thinks Renee will be there too I believe, though I didn't look it up). The problem with her is she really does not care about anything besides her sister. Raphaela is a confirmed offensive type, who got the harder job in the soul link.

Raph does have her problems and failings in youki reading though (as most do), even if she was trained in the hardest youki sensing manipulating technique we have seen in the whole story.

PureYoki

2009-01-25, 17:39

@ chiba:

The next pages are unimportant because my point is that Irene should have known which one Priscilla's yoki was, she should have never asked the question "Whose is it?" She knew both Teresa's and Priscilla's yoki signatures after all, the question "Whose is it" is absurd. (The same Irene later said "Priscilla didn't pass her limit yet", she was not blinded or something.) There's an obvious inconsistency but I understand Yagi's motive.

Clare's right arm was totally different from his left arm in Pieta arc, I think there was something like leather around it. Even I could tell something was different. :D

MIB speculated that Rafaela's weak human heart caused the failure but honestly I have no idea what it means. (And I don't understand how being a robot solves the problem.) Anyway, then they used identical twins for the soul-link as if weak human heart was only one of these problems. I don't think it's possible to make a successful soul-link without identical twins. We also don't know Alicia's and Beth's type, can it be that the org realized they needed defensive types with better sensing skills for better results?!

Databooks say Alicia and Beth are special. What does "special" mean, can they regenerate their arm or not?

--- Edit ---

Ok, I looked at Miria's comment about the arm, she said "the arm of someone pretty powerful". Clare had used the arm with 100% yoki release against Dauf, so it had to have a distinct yoki aura, which IMO any single-digit should notice but maybe since one arm doesn't make you powerful, Flora and manipulator AB didn't care until they saw quicksword at work. I am rather surprised how Helen missed it.

Sleepy Speculator

2009-01-25, 18:09

*Bites through shield*

*calms down*

erm this is what i been saying for the last few months, i'm beginning to think the word 'special' is applied to soldiers who are soul link experiments. At first i thought it was because Clare was 1/4 yoma and Clarice looks hella weak like an incomplete hybrid that i thought ah so that's what's going on. But recently i just re-read Rubul say that Raphealla was "a little special" which is almost how Clarice describes herself. Luciella is never seen in the story so we only have what should be compatibility and similarity with Raphealla to go on. Raphealla was revealed to be an Offensive type, and whilst she does do standard yoki sensing she's not been shown to rely on SENSING as it were, despite being trained for soul link.

And whilst Alicia and Beth lack any defining personality they are still a human hybrid entity (at least biologically) with some instinct. I think the org got what they wanted in a defensive pair of twins. After all we clearly are shown Alicia scanning Riful. I know it's not been revealed but i stand by the theory that SENSING types are all defensive. (except Clare :eyespin:).

The more speculative theory is that Clarice is Clares replacement or partner in more way than one. She racked up an outstanding number of similarities with Clare, despite having an almost opposite mentality, and has even been provided a powerful bodyguard to boot. She's most likely a defensive type, and was first shown 'scanning' Pieta for life. Her very introduction implies that's what she's good at, which is IMO why she was very unhappy about the energy pills. Which she's spent much of her story on. I'm still confused about how she nearly took Agatha's sweet spot in one attack, leaving Galatea blind and confused as to what was going on.

PureYoki

2009-01-25, 18:38

Sorry Sleepy Speculator, I knew your interest about the issue. As far as I know, there is not any definite information about special types, this is why I asked the question. The only special type I know is Clare, because she is a quarter yoma and more importantly the protagonist. I won't be surprised if she learns to regenerate her limbs at one point.

I feel Clarice is also a quarter yoma (or maybe 1/8 yoma but don't ask how), there is definitely something different with the girl. She may gradually get stronger like Clare.

I agree with you, Alicia and Beth are defensive types.

chibamonster

2009-01-25, 18:45

@PureYoki: The thing is Miria did notice Clare's arm was different by youki sensing it. Sure you can make excuses about anyone should have been able to do it, but they did not. Miria did something no one else in the series managed. Even the AB with EXCELLENT youki sensing (counted the comrades for the 3 scouts as he was their eye) did not notice until it was too late.

If you are going to answer the observations from the story by making fun of the characters and saying the story is inconsistent where your theory fails I think I am done talking to you about this.

PureYoki

2009-01-25, 19:09

@ chiba:

So a little joke to lighten the mood bothered you, huh? Or are you a little angry at me because I have a point about Irene issue?

What was the AB supposed to say to show that he sensed Clare's arm? It wouldn't make any difference for him because he couldn't know Clare knew QS. If Flora knew QS, she could do the same thing with her original arm and escape. AB's plan failed because of QS.

chibamonster

2009-01-25, 20:12

@PureYoki: Remember, Miria did not see Clare use quicksword to make her conclusion. She just used youki sensing. The AB did not figure it out even while he was manipulating her youki (which means he was sensing her). If Irene's arm were leaking youki like you say, then the AB failed miserably to recognize it. That or Miria actually was able to tell something a skilled youki reader was not able to tell which is naturally what happened.

No, it is not the joke about Irene or Irene's arm, it is the assumption that since it does not fit your theory the story itself is inconsistent. Heaven forbid there is a theory that makes it work.

PureYoki

2009-01-25, 20:20

Remember, Miria did not see Clare use quicksword to make the assumption. She just used youki sensing. The AB did not figure it out even while he was manipulating her youki (which means he was sensing her).

You assume the AB didn't sense Clare's arm, I assume the AB sensed one of Clare's arms was different but didn't care because he was unaware of QS and even if he did care, there was nothing he could do to stop Clare.

No, it is not the joke about Irene or Irene's arm, it is the assumption that since it does not fit your theory the story itself is inconsistent. Heaven forbid there is a theory that makes it work.

I didn't joke about Irene's arm, I joked about Clare's right arm because it was clearly different from her left arm, and hence was easy to notice. Are you talking about Miria or Irene? What didn't fit my theory?

dunames

2009-01-25, 23:00

About Irene, i think u guys r overestatementing Irene ability a bit too much. taken irene situation and surrounding into consideration, what irene did was nothing special.

1: in teresa time, teresa was #1, and irene was #2 which mean irene beign chasing after teresa for her #1 spot all her life as a claymore. form tehir conversion during their fight, it seem that both teresa and irene being going at it several time as well so Irene got teresa energy signature down.

2: during their hunt for teresa, teh ORG and Irene make 1 major mistake in understatementing teresa and they pay a heavy price for it.

the ORG learn their lesson after teh teresa incedent and when they did go after Irene, they sent teh ex-#2 Rapheal after the ex-#2 Irene matching rank for rank and power for power. when teh ORG go after Galatea, they did waited 7 year to make sure they got a warrior capable fo defeating and tracking down galatea to go after her.

Irene underestatment teresa and it cost her big. it will be stupid fo her to think that the ORG will be dumb and sent a nobody to go after Irene especially after what happen with teresa. at this point if Rapheal was strong enough for the ORG to send after Irene who was a ex-#2, then it reasonable for Irene to assume that Rapheal was on par with Irene.

As for Irene senseing teresa aura to save clare, well Irene beign chasign after teresa and her last mission as a claymore was to hunt teresa down. In Clare fight with Ophilia, she goign al out near her limit usign the very same part that teresa using to unleash her yoki. to top it off, the fight happen in Irene backyard, Irene would ahve have to a a total failure to not notice aura very similar to teresa flyign all over the back yard when she look out teh window.

as for Irene noticing Presy potential will it safe to say that Irene fail in that as well. she fought teresa serveral time atleast for her to be that confident in guessing teresa power and willign to take up the hunt for teresa. from what Irene said in their consversion while presy was 1v1 teresa, Irene have seen pressy fight a few time and can guess that pressy was about the same lvl as teresa. Irene make teh same mistake that Rosemary make and that they assume that teresa power was all what she show them and they didnt sense any of the power that teresa suppress. the mistake in comparing the fighting power of Irene hunting group to teresa fightign power was no small mistake. teresa solo their whole group using less then 10% of her power.

recap, there nothing special about Irene except she a strong warrior who use teh flash sword tech and was teh former #2. seen and fought teresa serveral time but fail to graps teresa power. puting a party of #2-#5 together to hunt for teresa think that they would have a good chance against teresa from teh encouter she have with teresa when in reality teresa was just toying with Irene and teh whole combine force of the hunting party didnt even amount to 10% of teresa power. that a nealy 90% miss read and calcualtion on Irene part. its only reasonable for teh ORG to send some1 stronger then Irene to go after Irene and it on safe on Irene part to guess that teh warrior that was sent after her is on par with her.

Cyclone

2009-01-25, 23:30

@dunames:
I honestly don't want to be a jerk, but long ago I found an interesting quote somewhere:
Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at an Elingsh uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, olny taht the frist and lsat ltteres are at the rghit pcleas. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae we do not raed ervey lteter by ilstef, but the wrod as a wlohe.

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-26, 00:35

Woah, that quote is genius. I guess it is true to some extent, since I was able to parse that pretty quickly, but normally many people just stop reading the message after the first three of those in a relatively small amount of space.

Vinak

2009-01-26, 03:10

@dunames:
I honestly don't want to be a jerk, but long ago I found an interesting quote somewhere:

we also look at the shape of the word to help us recognize what it is supposed to say.

...sigh. I have no idea what is going on, I haven't been keeping up with the thread like i should be XD.

don't mind me, just passing through.

Ryuken

2009-01-26, 03:18

we also look at the shape of the word to help us recognize what it is supposed to say.

...sigh. I have no idea what is going on, I haven't been keeping up with the thread like i should be XD.

don't mind me, just passing through.

Well, there has been a lot of posting going on while you were out. Just look at me, I have been gone for only one day and now I'm struggling to understand. Anyway I get it now. Time for spoilers I think.:)

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-26, 03:37

Spoiler: The ZACS will be revealed to be all the girls that Isley has spurned in his past.

iLney

2009-01-26, 03:56

Wrong

They will merge and demand Isley to give them some kind of balls.

Ryuken

2009-01-26, 05:28

Duh! What? did you say balls???

zato_1one

2009-01-26, 07:11

I've gone for vacation on Chinese new year. And when I come back to check this thread again. It has added up more than 100+ posts. - -"

What conspiracies are being discussed right now? :eyespin:

Sleepy Speculator

2009-01-26, 08:36

The zombies are a result of claymores who drank coffee and are now in withdrawal. It's why you never see anyone drinking coffee on the island.

Negativedark

2009-01-26, 09:38

The Zombies motives....

They're just looking for someone to cut those stitches so they can see and talk again. The towns are just accedents.

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-26, 13:02

*Zombie looking at Helen and Deneve*

Zombie 1: Those two hussies are trying to steal our man.
Zombie 2: Get 'em!!!

Isley: *whines* No, Oh god no! No more sex ... please...

MisterJB

2009-01-26, 13:05

*Zombie looking at Helen and Deneve*

Zombie 1: Those two hussies are trying to steal our man.
Zombie 2: Get 'em!!!

:heh:

Isley is such a pimp
That blue coat says it all

Miria is going to get some zombie sisters this way

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-26, 13:20

Isley: My kingdom *hickup* for a bottle of Cisco *hickup*.

http://bumwine.com/cisco.html

Here's another spoiler :D

Oh when do the real fake spoilers start coming in?

Vinak

2009-01-26, 13:46

the zombies are strippers...clearly

and the balls are inert

Sleepy Speculator

2009-01-26, 14:05

Claymore 2: synopsis... Isley was just an ordinary run of the mill abyssal one, lord of all he surveys, when suddenly he finds his lands invaded by zombie strippers, hybrid human warriors with big swords, a psychotic lolicon, some damn ugly awakened women, and lots of townsfolk who liked his manga good looks, the only problem for the gynaphobic/possibly homosexual lead is that they are all *females*. Join the trials and tribulations of Isley in Yagi's debut entrance into the world of harem anime...

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-26, 14:12

*somewhere at his base at a secret location, Isley is plotting his evil master plan*

Isley: now how to get that Raki away from Priscilla-- Hot to get that Raki away...

PureYoki

2009-01-26, 18:47

So, are we gonna see pole dancing from zombie strippers? :D :p

iLney

2009-01-26, 20:41

Isley reveals that those Zombies are the results of the Org to achieve Awakening II soldiers but failed. They retain the power of ABs II but lose their minds.

Ryuken

2009-01-27, 13:44

Isley reveals that those Zombies are the results of the Org to achieve Awakening II soldiers but failed. They retain the power of ABs II but lose their minds.

Better than nothing @iLney. I think there was something about the big and long awaited awakening of Luciella somewhere. Something about Galatea sensing something huge from way back in Rebona. Must be a big fake.:)

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-27, 14:11

I wonder what happened to the other survivor of when Clare earned her right to be a Claymore. Maybe she is one of the zombies, but honestly what does the org do to the ones that survive training, but don't become Claymores?

Sleepy Speculator

2009-01-27, 15:54

Perhaps she just died real quickly if they didn't execute her for being useless at sensing. Or perhaps the ones that aren't any good for experimental purposes are shipped off to the front to fight as actual soldiers. Perhaps she's still a claymore there's no way of knowing.

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-27, 17:13

Well I don't think she is a Claymore because Clare out performed, and Clare is number forty seven. I kind of think that training had to be for spot #47, because all those people got taken out by a single yoma, so they had to be weak.

Sleepy Speculator

2009-01-27, 18:29

Who knows what that test was actually meant to find, Clarice the modern #47 looks like she wouldn't have passed, and as others pointed out in what was a big discussion at the time, it seems like that test is designed, to make there would be soldiers sceptical of even the org's intentions.

I admit Clare was the only one who seemed to sense the yoma, but all the others were misled enough to be focused on wiping out the other team so who knows? Plus it only takes one successful claymore to wipe the yoma out and technically they all pass, so what does the org learn from that?

I'm more inclined to believe that little 'graduation' of Clare's wasn't a normal one at all. It's just a little too convenient that all the would be troublemakers are in one group, and all those who know anything about Clare end up dead. Rubul was watching it, like alot of other things involving Clare. And at some point around that time Clare was assigned the #47 slot, gained Rubul as a handler and managed to receive training in covert ops, which i don't believe the majority of claymores receive as part of their training regime.

Even so *if* the unnamed claymore survived in one of the arse end ranks and climbed up steadily over 7 years as a result of not being sent to Pieta for being rebellious/a nuisance then she should be one of the top digits of the present time, which have all been revealed except the present #7. (#1 and #2 may be open slots who knows?)

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-27, 19:07

Awakened

2009-01-28, 01:18

it can't be lower than Clare's since Clare is the lowest of the low. :)

lol low lowest low lol:D

Wiggle wyrm

2009-01-28, 01:50

My personal theory it that Clare’s gradation test was a normal one that each generation had to go through. The Organization probably does it as part of its standard operating procedure, to weed out its weaker and dumber claymores.

Now the reason why this new generation sucks so much is because the Organization isn’t testing its recruits as thoroughly. Instead it’s letting most of them pass because it doesn’t have as many of them to throw away. And it doesn’t have as many of them because its blowing all its money and resources on zombie claymore strippers.:uhoh:

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-28, 01:57

Those MiBs do look like dirty old men, bug geez what bad taste... I think Undine is the queen of the dead zombified strippers :) *imagines Rubel's glasses fog up as he stuff a $100 into the ZACS's daisy dukes.*

Last Month, we found out that Rubel was a spy for a competing Strip Club called "Dragon Ladies"...

Sleepy Speculator

2009-01-28, 05:19

Ryuken

2009-01-28, 06:59

The problem with the theory that the other claymore would be ranked lower than Clare, is that if she was given a pass mark, she'd likely have a higher demonic ratio, that is she'd be a complete hybrid and therefore would have more yoma energy, meaning she'd be ranked higher despite not being as good a sensor (if she can). As was pointed out later on in the series, the number is not an overall assessment of their power level, and can be misleading.

Well, that's ok @Sleepy. I would like to think that Clare really doesn't need to attain a pass mark. Her pass mark would naturally be the fact that she is a hybrid formed from Teresa. Now that would naturally earn her a pass mark.:)

Hmmmm! Am I saying this right.:confused::twitch:

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-28, 09:36

The problem with the theory that the other claymore would be ranked lower than Clare, is that if she was given a pass mark, she'd likely have a higher demonic ratio, that is she'd be a complete hybrid and therefore would have more yoma energy, meaning she'd be ranked higher despite not being as good a sensor (if she can). As was pointed out later on in the series, the number is not an overall assessment of their power level, and can be misleading.

The problem maybe that there probably was only one position open, due to death, and that Clare out scored her in the test. I think Clare proved, beyond a reasonable doubt, that she was the higher ranked Claymore there by how she handled the situation. The nameless Claymore basically was dead weight, and Clare just spared her life, though her yoki did turn out to be useful in fooling the Yoma. But quiet honestly, it would be in very poor judgement for the org to give the nameless Claymore a higher ranking than Clare based on that Clare out performed.

rukori

2009-01-28, 10:32

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-28, 10:36

First and very possibly fake spoilers from tss:SCENE88
「天敵」
街に侵入する悪魔たち
村人たちは悪魔の姿を見てビビリながらもクレイモアだと思い、話しかけたり近寄ったりする
突然悪魔が村人の首筋に噛みつく
誰かが「クレイモアが人を襲ったぞ！」と叫び、村人たちがパニックになり逃げだす
場面変わってイースレイVSヘレン＆デネヴ
イースレイの攻撃をデネヴが双剣で捌いたり、超再生で受け止め
ヘレンがロケット剣やグルグル剣で削っていく
優勢だがイースレイが覚醒体に変化しないことを疑問に感じるデネヴ
そこに村人を襲いながら悪魔たちが現れる
ヘレン「戦士？妖魔かっ！？」デネヴ「妖気は感じないが……」
悪魔たちを見るや否やイースレイが激しく怒りながら覚醒体に変化する
イースレイ曰く、悪魔は敵対勢力が送り込んだクレイモアの紛い物
偽クレイモアに一般人を襲わせることで、一般人の組織への信頼を損なわせることと
覚醒者や妖魔にとっての食糧を根絶やしにすることが目的らしい
そして悪魔たちがここにいるということは悪魔たちを統率している龍族も近くにいるということらしい
先ほど群衆を扇動していた男が塔の上からイースレイ達を見下ろし、不敵に笑っていた

继续召唤翻译

They confirm what Ilney said but I'll keep my doubts..

Evil Google Translation:

"Enemies"
Penetrate the devils in the city
The villagers thought it was a chatter mark Claymore also to see the devil, and went to talk
噛MITSUKU the scruff of the villagers and the devil suddenly
Someone "I hit a claymore people" screaming and panic, and the villagers逃GEDASU
Helen & VS ISUREI scene change DENEVU
捌I a sword or a double attack DENEVU ISUREI, taken in the play -
Sword to cut back on the sword and rocket round Helen
DENEVU feel that the question does not change the body's wakeful ISUREI advantage
The devil appears we hit the villagers there
Helen "warriors?妖魔tint?" DENEVU "妖気not feel that."
Changes in the body while awakening ISUREI and fierce anger and show us whether or not the devil
ISUREI says, the devil is the enemy forces sent紛I物of Claymore
The civilians caught in a Claymore to fake, and that undermined public confidence in the organization
目的RASHII to eradicate all the food for arousal and妖魔
That this is the devil and they were very close to the group that has led dragon satans
We ISUREI looking down from the top of the tower and the man who incited the crowd just had the audacity to laugh

Translation译召唤继续

Sleepy Speculator

2009-01-28, 10:38

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-28, 10:41

I don't buy the DoD sent the fake claymores to undermine the public confidence of the org thing. The org could care less of public confidence; those people are not but yoma food anyway.

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-28, 10:47

cheers rukori,

i'm sure that means junova will soon chip in :) and others with translations.

What i meant was ignoring what slots were open (the attrition rate is awful enough, nearly every experienced claymore before Clare's time dies, or at least the majority does) if the only thing that graduation looks for is who survives as being capable sensors, then the other claymore trainee gets in free, because of Clare's kill. And having more yoma energy is ranked higher, than Clare who actually did all the fighting. Worst case scenario they just killed her, though i doubt Clare would be happy with that.

I think the org monitors the performance much closer than that, especially if Galatea was around, though she wouldn't be happy with the test either. But I don't think that the org needed to fill the ranks. In Teresa's time, they had two candidates for #1 while Teresa was active -- Priscilla, and Alicia and Beth. I think that group were just candidates for position #47. That is Yagi style too -- to make us think someone is more powerful or weaker than they actually are -- where you have the person who bullied Clare that seemed strong to actually turn out to be a weakling.

Edit:

Also remember, Clare is the youngest of the ghost, meaning that they had already filled the ranks.

Sleepy Speculator

2009-01-28, 11:33

Clare is the youngest of the survivors sent to Pieta, who were predominantly expendable, rebellious and/or troublesome claymores, a few 40 something ranks were never revealed despite probably being expendable. Clare was probably the youngest in Pieta full stop, she got in that much trouble, most other newbies wouldn't be anywhere near that boat.#33,#34,#38,#42,#45 and #46 of Clare's time were never revealed or at Pieta, also all were unlikely to have been on any ab hunts and therefore not casualties amongst Eva's or Jeans team. Yuma who is at least older than Clare (has been a claymore longer) was #40 and had a lot less experience than Clare.

Also Galatea said the replacements for some of those lost in Pieta were already filling out the ranks despite most of the rank holders still being alive at the time.

Newhope

2009-01-28, 12:15

I think the org monitors the performance much closer than that, especially if Galatea was around, though she wouldn't be happy with the test either. But I don't think that the org needed to fill the ranks. In Teresa's time, they had two candidates for #1 while Teresa was active -- Priscilla, and Alicia and Beth. I think that group were just candidates for position #47. That is Yagi style too -- to make us think someone is more powerful or weaker than they actually are -- where you have the person who bullied Clare that seemed strong to actually turn out to be a weakling.

Edit:

Also remember, Clare is the youngest of the ghost, meaning that they had already filled the ranks.

An organization like the one that produces claymore would need a fairly steady influx of new recruits to fill the places of those killed in combat, and I get the feeling from reading the manga that the lower the rank the faster the claymores need to be replaced

I think if there training methods are even remotely normal they'd group people together by roughly the same abilities so my guess is that Claire's group was intended to replace 30-47 ranked casualties, I highly doubt they'd train 10+ claymores just to fill one spot thats a very time consuming and expensive way of doing things and they'd also be the problem of obtaining enough female orphans to fuel that kind of failure rate.

As for the test itself I don't think that was to test there actually combat or yoki strength because the org trainers more than likely already roughly know each of the trainees strength before the test even begun, I think the test was to test how they'd react to proper combat and weed out those who don't have the mental and physical strength to make it in the real world.

MisterJB

2009-01-28, 12:21

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-28, 12:38

An organization like the one that produces claymore would need a fairly steady influx of new recruits to fill the places of those killed in combat, and I get the feeling from reading the manga that the lower the rank the faster the claymores need to be replaced

I think if there training methods are even remotely normal they'd group people together by roughly the same abilities so my guess is that Claire's group was intended to replace 30-47 ranked casualties, I highly doubt they'd train 10+ claymores just to fill one spot thats a very time consuming and expensive way of doing things and they'd also be the problem of obtaining enough female orphans to fuel that kind of failure rate.

As for the test itself I don't think that was to test there actually combat or yoki strength because the org trainers more than likely already roughly know each of the trainees strength before the test even begun, I think the test was to test how they'd react to proper combat and weed out those who don't have the mental and physical strength to make it in the real world.

I don't think the unnamed Trainee had the mental and physical strength to make it in the Claymoreverse I agree that the org needs an influx of new recruits, and I think under usual circumstances the org has groups of trainees under training for each tier. I think that tier was 40-47, because those trainees were too weak to even be in the 30's. And that very test showed that the org was willing to sacrifice all of them to find someone to fill position #47. I do agree that the 40's die off fairly quickly, so the org would need a lot of replacements there. I somehow don't see two spots being open at the same time being likely, even if it is the 40's. I think Clare proved that she was more worthy for spot #47 not just by performance, but it also seems like the physically stronger warrior -- still pathetic compared to the average claymore -- had pretty much given up. There two posibilities as far as I see, 1) Clare graduated to #47, the unnamed warrior continued her training to become a Claymore or 2) The Org killed off the failure. I just don't see the org being that stupid as to promoting her to a position higher than Clare's when she's not even Claymore worthy.

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-28, 12:39

Do not say that. Not even if you are only kidding. We don't need to see an zombified Undine

:D If that picture from the image thread shows up in the Manga, I'm done reading it. :heh:

MisterJB

2009-01-28, 13:01

:D If that picture from the image thread shows up in the Manga, I'm done reading it. :heh:

Yagi wouldn't do such an evil thing to his faithfull readers would he...?

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-28, 13:04

Yagi wouldn't do such an evil thing to his faithfull readers would he...?

:heh: What if the Manga ended with a Zombie Striptease? :D

Ryuken

2009-01-28, 13:08

Yagi wouldn't do such an evil thing to his faithfull readers would he...?

Don't think he would @JB.:)

Wiggle wyrm

2009-01-28, 13:32

Originally Posted by MisterJB
Yagi wouldn't do such an evil thing to his faithfull readers would he...?

Oh yes he would.:twitch:

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/8514/clmr03pu1.gif

Ryuken

2009-01-28, 13:41

Oh yes he would.:twitch:

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/8514/clmr03pu1.gif

Now that was evil.:heh:

Wiggle wyrm

2009-01-28, 13:52

Bwahahahha!:D

Sleepy Speculator

2009-01-28, 13:52

aaahhh my eeyyeess curiosity got the better of me, and i usually avoid the image thread so i don't get exposed to that sort of thing.

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-28, 13:55

aaahhh my eeyyeess curiosity got the better of me, and i usually avoid the image thread so i don't get exposed to that sort of thing.

:upset: While bad, it's not as bad as the pic that shall not be mentioned!

Sleepy Speculator

2009-01-28, 14:08

i don't want to know... please i could do without trauma, especially if it's as bad as the fat naked woman avatar someone had which i swear made my eyes bleed.

MisterJB

2009-01-28, 15:09

Oh yes he would.:twitch:

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/8514/clmr03pu1.gif

Stupid Rachel...can't see...Audrey...

ps: I would prefer a Ghosts striptease but...

I think you're scarred for life gangsta, you don't stop talking about the pic that shall not be named. The one where Undine is all sweated and his licking herself...

Negativedark

2009-01-28, 15:57

Stupid Rachel...can't see...Audrey...

ps: I would prefer a Ghosts striptease but...

I think you're scarred for life gangsta, you don't stop talking about the pic that shall not be named. The one where Undine is all sweated and his licking herself...

That would have been fine if she had been in her true form. Undine is cute in her true form.

Sleepy Speculator

2009-01-28, 16:31

*shakes from mental trauma*

oh for gods sake put that in tags please.... i said i didn't want to know and now i've got mental imagery....

Aquillion

2009-01-28, 17:18

Well I'm still inclined to believe that those trainees were all very weak and only forty-something material. Even if they were mislead, it seems somewhat pathetic that one yoma was able to wipe out all but two and it would've been all but one if Clare didn't have a kind side. It seems very likely that only the 47th spot was open at the time -- a previous #47 probably dying -- and Clare got that spot. Surely they wouldn't give the other trainee who performed worse than Clare a higher ranking than Clare. If she were to get a ranking, logically it should be lower than Clares, but in this case, it can't be lower than Clare's since Clare is the lowest of the low. :)
We're making some assumptions here, though. We don't really know how Claymores are ranked, after all. The criteria could include some quantifiable measurement of Yoki that damned Clare to the lowest rank regardless of how she did on the test; the other, in this scenario, could've gotten a higher rank for surviving. Yeah, it's not fair, but the Org doesn't care about fair (and likely doesn't even particularly care about effectiveness at fighting Yoma, either.) What they care about is producing their precious perfect Awakened soldier formula -- Clare's personal attributes, aside from her Yoki and any ability to awaken while controlled (which certainly wasn't visible then), are likely things the Org couldn't care less about.

I mean, look at the current #1 and #2. They have no personality at all. That is what the Org would see as ideal in a high-ranking Claymore, if they could get whatever they want. In fact, the initiative Clare showed in the test might be worse than something the Org couldn't care less about; to them, it might even have been a bad thing, not a good thing. They don't really care whether or not Clare is good at killing Yoma. They want Claymores who will do what they're told so they can collect the necessary testing data. Killing Yoma was never the point in the first place.

Another issue that may be relevant: At least at some point, Clare fell under Rubel's authority. If she was already under his authority at the point of the test, even the Org's limited and questionable criteria for ranking Claymores may have become irrelevant, because (as we now know) Rubel was a traitor. If he was the one who made the final decision about Clare's rank, there's no reason why his decision would have to have anything to do with reality at all, as long as he can at least basically justify it to the others in the Org. In other words, if he thought that there was anything special about Clare, he might have deliberately given her the lowest rank to avoid attracting attention to her (although, granted, from what we saw she didn't deserve a high rank at the start of the series by any criteria -- in the only major plot arc we saw before she partially awakened, she almost got pwned by a generic Yoma in Rabona, after all.)

Also, we don't know that people become Claymores immediately after the test, do we? They could go into a waiting pool for the next available opening at the generally correct rank.

Cyclone

2009-01-29, 01:48

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-29, 01:54

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-29, 01:59

I'll just point out that according to Deneve and Undine's little talk, almost every Claymore starts off weak and powerless depending on others to survive. Considering their current ranks, Claymores get quite a bit better with a bit of experience under thier belts. I don't think the test was too atypical, except for a slightly lower than average survival rate for this one. It's doubtful all Claymores get the exact same test though for several reasons:
- Claymores on AB hunts swapping graduation stories would be troublesome
- Having an eye type like Galatea-sama in it would render the test meaningless.

The main thing about the test though is I don't think the org can afford to graduate everybody. I am thinking that usually there is just one spot open when someone dies, which usually is a 40 something according to Renee. I really think these were the small fries they were testing, to put into the 40 something tier. Anyway, the single digits would perform well in those tests I would think, they might not even need to be tested against others. Anyway, for the no name trainee to become a Claymore a spot would have had to been available.

Also what about the argument that has been made that the org doesn't fill a spot unless someone is worthy of it? That would support the testing people by their tier group level theory. If a #15 died, and Clare was the sole survivor, would it make sense to even test her if you trying to find a replacement for the 10's tier?

Cyclone

2009-01-29, 01:59

That argument about the org caring for ther precious controlled awakened being fails, especially for the 40 something. Surely the org isn't expecting to gain an controlled abyssal from the 40 something. I think that the org had several experiments going on at once. To be honest, a weak claymore who had an unknown factor of having teresa in her, and had sensory powers, is far more interesting to experiment on that a slightly stronger but still pathetic claymore that has no common sense and no sensory powers. And the org displayed that they have some interest in observing clare, as was shown after she defeated Ophelia and then went missing. I doubt they send galatea to fetch the nameless one instead. And everything isn't that clear cut about what the org wants; they still have claymore choose to kill themselves rather than become awakened beings; they are willing to throw away something like Teresa for violating a stupid rule. I think much of what they do is just observe and let things play out besides their pet projects like Alicia and Beth.

It's doubtful the main reason for Teresa's execution was a rule. The rule is for PR purposes anyways, and I think the survivors of that village would side with Teresa on this one.
It's far mroe likely that Teresa was killed due to what she knew. She hinted to her handler she knew what the organization was upto ("you make it sound like we send the youma." / "Oh, you mean you don't?"), and that made her dangerous to them. The Org was then probably looking for any reason they could find to get rid of her - otherwise they'd look the other way like they did with Ophelia.

Cyclone

2009-01-29, 02:08

The main thing about the test though is I don't think the org can afford to graduate everybody. I am thinking that usually there is just one spot open when someone dies, which usually is a 40 something according to Renee. I really think these were the small fries they were testing, to put into the 40 something tier. Anyway, the single digits would perform well in those tests I would think, they might not even need to be tested against others. Anyway, for the no name trainee to become a Claymore a spot would have had to been available.

I've run the numbers on this before. I don't feel like finding the post, but here's the gist of it. Using Miria's 100 year timeline of the org, and Teresa's Warrior number, and assuming there is 1 graduating class every year, the Org would need about 3-4 graduates each year on average. In Clare's class, there were only 2 - so that's about right (especially if others like Galatea-sama graduate without this test). What happens after things like the Luciella and Pieta incidents though is unknown - probably no youma and everyone graduates, which would help explain the low overall quality of the current crop (in my opinion).

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-29, 02:10

I don't think the Teresa thing was about PR, but more about control; it is the kind of regime the org is, and I think the org sometimes hurts itself by being the kind of regime that they are. :) I think they are a bit shortsighted at times too, but I guess that is up to yagi to prove or disprove with Alicia. Alicia was around when Teresa was, so maybe she became less important to their plans.

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-29, 02:16

I've run the numbers on this before. I don't feel like finding the post, but here's the gist of it. Using Miria's 100 year timeline of the org, and Teresa's Warrior number, and assuming there is 1 graduating class every year, the Org would need about 3-4 graduates each year on average. In Clare's class, there were only 2 - so that's about right (especially if others like Galatea-sama graduate without this test). What happens after things like the Luciella and Pieta incidents though is unknown - probably no youma and everyone graduates, which would help explain the low overall quality of the current crop (in my opinion).

But if a #9 dies, you need to replace her with a single digit in training. Priscilla was a #1 in training. There was another eye in training when Galatea was still around. I think the org is far more organized than to just add 2 more claymores each year. Why not train different claymoers together and organize the groups in tiers based on your initial analysis of how strong they can be? You can have Galatea or someone tell you that the yoki range is in the 40's and then you can train a class of maybe 30 girls for the 40 tier, do the same for the 30's 20's and 10's though the higher tiers starting at the 10's might be subdivided themselves, like there is a big gap between 5 and 6 in clare's time. Just adding 2 new claymore's a year in such an unorganized manner just doesn't make sense to me.

Wiggle wyrm

2009-01-29, 03:40

While I think there were a lot of factors with the hunt for Teresa, it all comes back to her killings. True, it seems that she knew too much and she was of questionable honesty, to say nothing about the “perfect replacement” waiting in line. But, there isn’t a chance the organization could overlook what she did.

It isn’t so much that she killed someone; it’s that she went on a murderous rampage. She killed a few dozen bandits, in the middle of town, in front of scores of witnesses. There’s no way the organization could keep something like that under wraps. Both humans and Claymores would hear about it, causing the Organization no end of grief if they allowed Teresa to live.

Not that the Organization cared one wit about human life. I think it’s pretty likely the Organization knew about Ophelia’s killings. From her seemingly habitually sadism, it’s hard to imagine that the Org couldn’t find out what was going on, if it wanted to know. They just didn’t care since she was considerate enough provide them with deniability. After all, by killing troublesome witnesses, there’s no one left to besmirch the Organization’s good name.:rolleyes:

FateAnomaly

2009-01-29, 03:47

Hmm i don't think there were any witnesses. The villagers were all killed by the bandits and the bandits were all killed by Teresa. The only witness left is Clare.

Cyclone

2009-01-29, 04:02

mosmos

2009-01-29, 06:05

Yeah !!! It time of the month ... I am so excited....

I wonder.. am I going to do this until I die ? ...

PureYoki

2009-01-29, 06:20

Why not train different claymoers together and organize the groups in tiers based on your initial analysis of how strong they can be? You can have Galatea or someone tell you that the yoki range is in the 40's and then you can train a class of maybe 30 girls for the 40 tier, do the same for the 30's 20's and 10's though the higher tiers starting at the 10's might be subdivided themselves, like there is a big gap between 5 and 6 in clare's time. Just adding 2 new claymore's a year in such an unorganized manner just doesn't make sense to me.

It's reasonable to think there're many groups in different tiers but Teresa's warrior number indicates that there are only 1 or 2 graduates in each generation.

Teresa's warrior number = 182
Teresa's generation = 77
There were 47 claymores in first generation.
After Luciela incident, half of the warriors died = 23 warriors.

That leaves us 112 warriors for 75 generations which is approximately 1.5. So, on average, only 1 or 2 claymores can pass the test in each generation.

On the other hand, if we think about claymores who die in the battle, claymores who die by sending black cards and claymores who awaken, 1 or 2 claymores per generation is too low.

One more problem with tier-based training is that the weakest member of the high tier is still stronger than low tiers. If you eliminate strong warriors from high tiers but graduate weaker warriors from lower tiers, wouldn't it decrease the overall power level of claymores?

I think they graduate enough warriors to fill the ranks in each generation and they rearrange the rankings according to strength of the graduates. For example if there are 5 vacant positions and all 5 graduates are very strong, they become new #1 to #5 and other claymores are demoted. If new claymores are very weak, they become #43 to #47 and other claymores are promoted accordingly.

Wiggle wyrm

2009-01-29, 06:34

There were still people alive, mostly the women that the bandits wanted to round up.

I’m not saying that Teresa killing the bandits was a bad thing (it wasn’t), what I’m saying is that there’s no way that the Organization would tolerate such a blatant violation of its rules. Yes, the remaining survivors would be grateful to Teresa, but the Organization doesn’t give a damn about what they think. All it really cares about it staying in control and creating newer and better weapons.

I have the feeling that the rules aren’t there to make people more trusting of Claymores, but to keep the Claymores in line. Besides, letting Teresa off the hook might send the message that it’s OK for Claymores to break the rules.

Before you know it Claymores would be demanding better working conditions, a retirement plan that doesn’t involve having a sword driven through sternum, disability insurance for offensive types, equal pay for equal work, time off and paid vacations, overtime pay, 401K’s and don’t even get me started on forming a union.

Sleepy Speculator

2009-01-29, 07:54

It had nothing to do with those villagers either way. Orsay an mib and Teresa's handler witnessed the event, by what he said it's implied he was 'waiting' for it to happen. The plan was obviously to have Teresa purged for a rule infraction, that they don't really care about. Which brings about the obvious issue with the 'bandits'.

The bandits were not only well informed about the rules of the org imposed on their soldiers, but the leader also knew of the presence and non presence of the yoma that was in the town. Literally right after Teresa killed it, they moved in. Not to mention being awfully wasteful, and behaving more like a slaving operation than bandits.

Teresa was then 'expected' to submit to execution, which would have left Clare in the hands of the org, (she goes so far as to ask what would happen to Clare) which is what prompted her next and technically last act of rebellion.

The org don't really care much for their warriors, and Teresa had made it known she was a little too aware of what was going on. But what i can't be sure on is just how much the org was trying to get hold of Clare. Rubul's smile when Clare approaches him is almost too much, as if it was planned.

Clare survives the 1st yoma that kills her family, and is rescued whilst it's 'raping' her. By an unnamed claymore with a short haircut.
Clare is exiled but picked up not by the org, but by another yoma.
Clare is tormented by the 2nd yoma and dragged around and treated as a 'toy'.
Clare is rescued for the second time by Teresa.
Clare joins with Teresa and is seemingly chased by bandits.
Bandits wipe out entire town and primarily grab Clare.
etc etc.

Bare in mind that the org apparently makes the yoma, meaning they threw not one but two at the chibi Clare.

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-29, 10:00

Not that the Organization cared one wit about human life. I think it’s pretty likely the Organization knew about Ophelia’s killings. From her seemingly habitually sadism, it’s hard to imagine that the Org couldn’t find out what was going on, if it wanted to know. They just didn’t care since she was considerate enough provide them with deniability. After all, by killing troublesome witnesses, there’s no one left to besmirch the Organization’s good name.:rolleyes:

I think it all was a control thing; the org doesn't need PR. As for Ophelia, well, I think that AB hunt she was on was meant to get rid of both her and Clare. 2 People on an AB hunt, against a single digit AB? Sure Ophelia won, but I don't think the org thought she would've.

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-29, 10:15

It's reasonable to think there're many groups in different tiers but Teresa's warrior number indicates that there are only 1 or 2 graduates in each generation.

Teresa's warrior number = 182
Teresa's generation = 77
There were 47 claymores in first generation.
After Luciela incident, half of the warriors died = 23 warriors.

That leaves us 112 warriors for 75 generations which is approximately 1.5. So, on average, only 1 or 2 claymores can pass the test in each generation.

On the other hand, if we think about claymores who die in the battle, claymores who die by sending black cards and claymores who awaken, 1 or 2 claymores per generation is too low.

One more problem with tier-based training is that the weakest member of the high tier is still stronger than low tiers. If you eliminate strong warriors from high tiers but graduate weaker warriors from lower tiers, wouldn't it decrease the overall power level of claymores?

I think they graduate enough warriors to fill the ranks in each generation and they rearrange the rankings according to strength of the graduates. For example if there are 5 vacant positions and all 5 graduates are very strong, they become new #1 to #5 and other claymores are demoted. If new claymores are very weak, they become #43 to #47 and other claymores are promoted accordingly.

There is no problem with the tier system, especially if you graduate 2 claymores a year, and you combine that with what Renee said, then you graduate 2 lower tier warriors a year, which means that you are training mostyl 30 and 40 somethings. There is a lot of support for the tier based system in the manga itself. Priscilla *was* a #1 in training. Renee *was* *the* eye in training. Alicia & Beth *were* #1 and #2 in training, with Alicia being a #1 in training while Priscilla was a #1 in training and Teresa still being alive. It even seems like that Teresa was a #1 in training when she met Rafaela. If you are replacing 1 or 2 very low digit claymores a year, then it is best to keep training the higher tier Claymores, but still I have my doubts that the nameless trainee wasn't put down. What use are Claymores that can't sense yomas? At the beginning Clare was pretty bad. That nameless trainee would've most likely died anyway on her first mission where the yoma is cloaked, if she can't even handle a single uncloaked one that is going through the trainees like the alien in the original Alien move, which is just pathetic, again. Oh and by cloaked I just mean shape shifted, not hiding yoki, which is something she wouldn't be able to sense anyway, it seems.

PureYoki

2009-01-29, 12:06

There is a lot of support for the tier based system in the manga itself. Priscilla *was* a #1 in training. Renee *was* *the* eye in training. Alicia & Beth *were* #1 and #2 in training, with Alicia being a #1 in training while Priscilla was a #1 in training and Teresa still being alive. It even seems like that Teresa was a #1 in training when she met Rafaela.

I mean if any of claymore trainees for the high tier gets eliminated in a test, wouldn't it be a waste? Those eliminated in the test are still stronger than graduates from the low tiers after all. (Do you say trainees for the high tier don't take a test at all? Sorry, I didn't fully understand your point.)

Newhope

2009-01-29, 12:23

And if there were any villagers who had survived, do you think they would complain that Teressa killed the bandits? Teresa would saved their lives, so who cares if they were witnesses. It's not like it would be bad PR for the Org.

If any villagers survived which is likely due to the fact the bandits where after the women alive, my bets the org killed them to prevent word spreading about a claymore killing humans.

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-29, 12:38

I mean if any of claymore trainees for the high tier gets eliminated in a test, wouldn't it be a waste? Those eliminated in the test are still stronger than graduates from the low tiers after all. (Do you say trainees for the high tier don't take a test at all? Sorry, I didn't fully understand your point.)

If Claymores of a higher tier take test designed to kill some of them in a sort of competition, that is an unknown. They probably do pit the higher ranks like Teresa against Yoma in individual training, and I am sure that even at a young age Teresa could slaughter yomas. There also wasn't anyone in Teresa's league when she was training, so what use would it be to put her in a test with lower digits, when a) she could ruin the testing of lower ranked claymores by killing the yoma too quickly b) she'd obviously win. I think the best way to think of it would be Miata and Clarice, where Miata chibi as she maybe killed scores of Yoma, while Clarice is even worse at killing them than Clare was at the beginning of the story. Would a test where you put Miata with the group of trainees Clare was with be fruitful? Would a test where you put Galatea with them be fruitful? The way that the org talked about them having an Eye in training, sounded like Renee wouldn't need to go through the kind of test that Clare did because she is too important. That isn't true when you get to Claymores that are in the 30's and 40's. The way things sound if you combine the numbers of 2 a year with Renee's statements on 40 somethings, lower ranking trainees are a lot more common than high ranking ones, since that is who you usually are replacing.

Ryuken

2009-01-29, 13:51

It's all planed, there is no doubt about it. The Org has planed everything very well IMO. Everything is designed so that they would have complete control over them. In addition it would keep them always a step ahead of the others competing for power and control. To filter the strongest from a group, pin them against a yoma and wait for the result. Most likely the strongest would survive. To get rid of a couple, just send them on a dangerous mission, one guaranteed to kill and leave no trace. Planed very well indeed.:)

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-29, 14:44

I agree it is all planned out; though, I'm not sure if we have the same definition of it. :D And I also don't think their plans are always the best laid out ones, despite it all being for control. I am having a little problem with the context of some of what you say -- in that I'm not sure what you are saying, because there are more than one interpretations I could make of it. So I am a bit hesitant to respond. I still, however, don't see much accomplishment in placing a Priscilla in a test of a bunch of small fries, other than to make Priscilla look good when contrasted against their incompetence. And yet there was no Priscilla in Clares test. Instead, we see some egomaniac who shows herself to be physically stronger than Clare at the beginning of the chapter, but that isn't saying much. There are huge leaps of power in the story, and Yagi likes to play on them. The initial impression of Clare is that she is strong; then Yagi lets us in on a little secret that she is actually the weakest of all Claymore. I read the extra chapter the same way. The initial impression was that the bully was strong, but it turns out that she is actually a no talent bum and that Clare is actually the more talented one. I mean the test itself seems to hint at a tiered system in that all of them were pathetically weak, there was no Teresa, no Galatea, no Jean, no Helen, no Cynthia, no Rachel and no Audrey in that crowd. Cyclone made a valid point on what was said. But when do Claymores start being able to sensor Yoki? Would any of those aforementioned Claymores not be able to sense the yoki of a Yoma? Clare is a very good sensor, but I tend to think that a higher level Claymore would've at least sensed something by that point. I would also think it would pay to develop sensory skills before such a test; it could be wasteful otherwise. The test would be logical if it was meant to weed out the poor sensor types on the low end of the spectrum.

Sleepy Speculator

2009-01-29, 15:15

It's likely that's the only thing they can't train them in. And if it's just a matter of hide and seek then they could just redo the test until every trainee has either passed or died.

irvinethearcher

2009-01-29, 18:13

Newhope

2009-01-29, 21:39

I think that test is there just to weed out those who aren't suited to fighting, it doesn't really matter how powerful or how much training somebody has they can still be unsuitable for combat.

Ryuken

2009-01-30, 00:46

@Gangsta, I agree with you on the fact that sometimes, or rather, on a couple of occasions the plan had backfired, or, lets say that it had not gone as the Org had hoped for. We can take the examples of Miria's group taking on the six armed fellow and also the battle seven years before. On both occasions claymores survived when they were not expected to.:)

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-30, 01:53

They probably wanted only to get rid of the garbage in extra chapter four. Perhaps clare impressed them because of her smart way of fighting and surviving. so they promoted her despite her weakness.
It makes no sense training someone like teresa with those weaklings.
Perhaps the single digits train all together and so on... is that what you meant with a tier system?

That pretty much what I was saying. The only thing is that someone like Galatea might get her own personal full time trainer, since the eye of the org is that valuable. The same is true for Alicia/Beth, Teresa and Priscilla. Also notice the low level ones that was their first encounter with a Yoma probably. I am sure the high level ones are taught to first sense yomas, and then they probably kill yoma as part of the training before they graduate. Alicia and Beth seemed like they were still in training in Clare's time despite being active. The active part is probably unusual, but I'm sure Priscilla was killing scores of yoma before she became a Claymore as part of her training. But yes, I think that particular final test we saw was only for the Garbage Claymores to see who can sense. I'm sure Clarice also out sensed a lot of Claymores that were stronger than her but still pathetic in the grand scheme of things.

Jasperboo

2009-01-30, 02:21

Clare survives the 1st yoma that kills her family, and is rescued whilst it's 'raping' her. By an unnamed claymore with a short haircut.
Clare is exiled but picked up not by the org, but by another yoma.
Clare is tormented by the 2nd yoma and dragged around and treated as a 'toy'.
Clare is rescued for the second time by Teresa.
Clare joins with Teresa and is seemingly chased by bandits.
Bandits wipe out entire town and primarily grab Clare.
etc etc.

Bare in mind that the org apparently makes the yoma, meaning they threw not one but two at the chibi Clare.

Is it possible the yoma are programmed to leave young girls alive to keep the supply of orphans coming?

tunjee01

2009-01-30, 07:10

Has any1 noticed this, the kindest people to raki are not human. Very few humans are kind to him.

Sleepy Speculator

2009-01-30, 07:48

@jasperboo

Hmm well who knows, it's kindof implied they just eat anyone, i think it was Deneve that revealed her sister was "eaten" by one, so chances are if you survive your'e just lucky. Clare however seems to be rather unlucky by contrast in that her life certainly emphasised the crap in crapsack world.

I don't think even Teresa knew that Clare had already encountered a claymore once before, as such examples should be pretty rare. (see Raki's excitement at being able to see one, and the despair of his home villagers when they are attacked by a second yoma in 7-8 years.)

The interesting thing is that Teresa had an idea that if Clare travelled with her she would be targeted by the org. Because she would be a) what they look for in raw material and b) too knowledgeable about the claymore world. Which is what prompted her to leave Clare behind. (before the org realised and she learnt too much)

I must admit it's speculation that the bandits were working for the org, because we don't know by what mechanism the org gathers up all those orphans. But it does seem they were there to collect all the women/girls which would have included Clare who was one of, if not the only girl in the town. (in essence destroying an entire community in order to get hold of one girl :eyespin:, since when it comes to valuable slaves only the girls are used for hybridisation/ sold to the org/ sent east).

On the surface Teresa's rage is that Clare a little girl had been beaten and probably violated by the bandits whilst calling out for her help. (having effectively been abandoned and left there by Teresa in order to have a human life). But there may be more to it in that Teresa herself said that she was betrayed by the one's she trusted and sold to the org and that no-one went willingly to the org. This means she may have some idea through personal experience about how the org gathers the little girls up, and sees the bandits as taking Clare for that purpose, which is something that effectively ended her own human existence.

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-30, 11:21

Good analysis, 'cept for the bandit. I mean thats what various groups that destroyed villages did throughout the ages, kill the men and take the women.

MisterJB

2009-01-30, 12:31

Is it possible the yoma are programmed to leave young girls alive to keep the supply of orphans coming?

I never thought of it. It could be possible but wouldn't the humans start noticing and supecting that it was the Organization's work

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-30, 13:02

The org wouldn't have to go to those extremes when they can just take the girls when they want them.

Sleepy Speculator

2009-01-30, 16:28

The problem with that is the nature of the masquerade as it were, i think it was the Zemas being taken that prompted a random villager to comment something along the lines of it's fine to take the orphans but to insist on handing over their children is rare. Basically people view it as fine, since the orphans would likely die or end up beggars (i'll politely refrain from pointing out the other survival method/career path). And because it's not their children. A very basic example of someone else's problem coupled with the fact, that the other people were victims of yoma, and therefore being dead can't complain. The yoma attacks appear random and sporadic and are relatively low compared to the percentage of the human population. No one's really gonna notice because a) they don't want to notice and b) it's a rarity so people don't become experienced.

Now onto the nature of the masquerade, if the org are creating the yoma then the very threat they are supposed to be eradicating is created and dispersed by them. The soldiers fighting the battle, trained from a young age and dying by the handfuls don't even know the truth of their own organisation. And yet Rubul states ironically to Galatea that the drive to create a controllable Ab is so the human populace can be 'protected' from yoma, despite both knowing that they don't require that level of power. They only require a controllable Ab on the surface in order to fight the Ab's that they themselves created. (an obvious logical paradox)

As to why i say the bandits were a bit odd, it's because they behaved more like a slaving operation than as regular outlaws interested in monetary gain. If a bandit is interested in robbing someone they may be excessively violent but like protection rackets the murder rate is low because they can just come round and beat everyone up again, and take everything that has been rebuilt.

That village on the other hand was not only isolated, ie nowhere near any other form of civilisation or legal authority/enforcement from which aid could arrive, but was isolated enough that Teresa says.
"i should have known there shouldn't be bandits in these parts, they were after the village because it's isolated and cut off, but they knew the yoma were there so they left it alone"

It's an odd implication but bandits working outside of their home area with intimate knowledge of the regulations of the claymore org and the presence or non presence of yoma and a priority on enslaving over wealth redistribution implies to me a slaving operation working on behalf of the org. After all why would anyone be certain of the rule that claymores aren't allowed to kill humans, when a)barely anything is known about the org, b) people barely accept the knowledge that the claymores are humans and the various other reassurances anyway and c) the soldiers don't tell anyone stuff that is considered not for outside ears.

It implies that someone explicitly told the bandit leader that they can not be attacked by claymores and that there is a repurcussion for such actions. Something an averedge citizen wouldn't know and a soldier wouldn't say.

Edit: dead people don't tend to tell you where they hid the savings either.

Bikerider

2009-01-30, 17:24

Spoliers spoilers spoilers !!! It's almost next month !! where's the latest fake spoilers !!!

rukori

2009-01-30, 17:57

Prolly being invented right now!!! Wait a little longer and the finest jap/chinese Claymore fans will create excellent fake scripts in order to annoy you and make you wanna kill yourself!!:D

Negativedark

2009-01-30, 23:07

Spoliers spoilers spoilers !!! It's almost next month !! where's the latest fake spoilers !!!

Fake Spoiler? Like what? The ZCS smash and apple cart and Helen goes berserk maybe?

Awakened

2009-01-30, 23:13

zato_1one

2009-01-30, 23:36

Spoliers spoilers spoilers !!! It's almost next month !! where's the latest fake spoilers !!!

I have one if you really want it. :D

SCENE88
「天敵」
街に侵入する悪魔たち
村人たちは悪魔の姿を見てビビリながらもクレイモアだと思い、話しかけたり近寄ったりする
突然悪魔が村人の首筋に噛みつく
誰かが「クレイモアが人を襲ったぞ！」と叫び、村人たちがパニックになり逃げだす
場面変わってイースレイVSヘレン＆デネヴ
イースレイの攻撃をデネヴが双剣で捌いたり、超再生で受け止め
ヘレンがロケット剣やグルグル剣で削っていく
優勢だがイースレイが覚醒体に変化しないことを疑問に感じるデネヴ
そこに村人を襲いながら悪魔たちが現れる
ヘレン「戦士？妖魔かっ！？」デネヴ「妖気は感じないが……」
悪魔たちを見るや否やイースレイが激しく怒りながら覚醒体に変化する
イースレイ曰く、悪魔は敵対勢力が送り込んだクレイモアの紛い物
偽クレイモアに一般人を襲わせることで、一般人の組織への信頼を損なわせることと
覚醒者や妖魔にとっての食糧を根絶やしにすることが目的らしい
そして悪魔たちがここにいるということは悪魔たちを統率している龍族も近くにいるということらしい
先ほど群衆を扇動していた男が塔の上からイースレイ達を見下ろし、不敵に笑っていた

继续召唤翻译
Credit: Lucis@Onemanga

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-31, 01:39

Evil Google Translation:

"Enemies"
Penetrate the devils in the city
The villagers thought it was a chatter mark Claymore also to see the devil, and went to talk
噛MITSUKU the scruff of the villagers and the devil suddenly
Someone "I hit a claymore people" screaming and panic, and the villagers逃GEDASU
Helen & VS ISUREI scene change DENEVU
捌I a sword or a double attack DENEVU ISUREI, taken in the play -
Sword to cut back on the sword and rocket round Helen
DENEVU feel that the question does not change the body's wakeful ISUREI advantage
The devil appears we hit the villagers there
Helen "warriors?妖魔tint?" DENEVU "妖気not feel that."
Changes in the body while awakening ISUREI and fierce anger and show us whether or not the devil
ISUREI says, the devil is the enemy forces sent紛I物of Claymore
The civilians caught in a Claymore to fake, and that undermined public confidence in the organization
目的RASHII to eradicate all the food for arousal and妖魔
That this is the devil and they were very close to the group that has led dragon satans
We ISUREI looking down from the top of the tower and the man who incited the crowd just had the audacity to laugh

Translation译召唤继续

Ryuken had already previously posted that one and I google translated it.. I think it is the same one at least ;)

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-31, 01:42

Acutally, google seems to translate that a little better now (few more words):

SCENE88
"Enemies"
They invade the city devils
The villagers thought the claymore is but chatter mark to see the devil, and went to talk
噛MITSUKU the nape of the villagers suddenly the devil
Someone "I have hit a claymore!" Screaming and panic, the villagers will逃GEDASU
Helen & ISUREI VS DENEVU scene change
DENEVU捌I with swords and attacked the twin ISUREI, taken in the play -
Sword to cut back on the sword and rocket round Helen
DENEVU feel that the question does not change the body's arousal ISUREI the dominant
We see the villagers attacked it with the devil
Helen "warriors?妖魔winning?" DENEVU "妖気not feel that ..."
Changes in the body while awakening the fierce anger and show us whether or ISUREI devil
ISUREI says, the devil is the enemy forces sent紛I物of Claymore
To the public in a Claymore attack false, and to undermine public confidence in the organization
目的RASHII to eradicate all the food for arousal and妖魔
That the devils are here and that is very close to the Dragon family has led the devils
We ISUREI looking down from the top of the tower and the man who incited the crowd just had to laugh audaciously

Translation召唤继续译

well some words are translated differently today, wonder why. :D

Ryuken

2009-01-31, 03:46

MisterJB

2009-01-31, 08:20

Ryuken

2009-01-31, 09:01

I seems to say that the Dragons are the ones controlling the ZCS

What!!? The dragons have something to do with the ZCS. Now how is that possible?:confused::twitch:

Newhope

2009-01-31, 09:42

It's not impossable although it doesn't really make sense to me why take the risk of exposeing there covert ops, the only reason I can think of is the ORG is close to either discovering or close to completeing something the DND doesn't like and it's forcing them to take a more hands on approach.

Also has anyone wondered if it is the DND that those ZCS are there version of claymore's humans inplanted with dragon flesh instead of yoma's.

PureYoki

2009-01-31, 10:12

Also has anyone wondered if it is the DND that those ZCS are there version of claymore's humans inplanted with dragon flesh instead of yoma's.

I had such a theory (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=2147218&postcount=358) but I guess this spoiler is fake.

Mangaloid

2009-01-31, 11:34

Has it actually been confirmed that claymores are made using yoma's flesh. I remember it being said, but is there undeniable proof yet that I have forgotten or missed.

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-31, 11:58

Has it actually been confirmed that claymores are made using yoma's flesh. I remember it being said, but is there undeniable proof yet that I have forgotten or missed.

The characters pretty much say it over and over again. I'm not sure what'cha trying to get at though. If they don't take Yoma flesh, then what; and what difference does it make?

rukori

2009-01-31, 12:16

Ryuken had already previously posted that one and I google translated it.. I think it is the same one at least ;)

Dude, it's Rukori.:mad:

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-31, 12:33

Oh my bad :heh:

Jonova

2009-01-31, 13:07

new spoiler coming from a supposely more creditable source on 2ch

933 ：作者の都合により名無しです：2009/01/31(土) 19:10:42 ID:PIFrSuZ3O
クレイモア

突然現れた悪魔たちに、斬り掛かるヘレンだったが
逆に右腕を断たれ左目も潰されてしまう
ディートリヒが助けに加わり
またイースレイが覚醒体になり悪魔の相手をしている間に
なんとか戦場を離脱する三人
すぐさま再生する悪魔に劣勢を強いられるイースレイ
ディートリヒの口から悪魔の正体が明かされる
曰く、組織による妖魔ではなく覚醒者の血肉を使い生成された戦士で
自我を取り除かれ、たった一つ覚え込まされた餌(イースレイ)だけを
追い求める絶対的な生命体である
深淵喰い…11体の悪魔に組織はそう名付けた
4月号につづく

Helen attacks the demons who suddenly appear at the battle field but loses her right hand/arm and left eye as the result.

With the help of Dietrich, the 3 was able to escpe the battle field as the demons seemed to be focused on Isley, and they appear to have a slight advantage over awakened Isley due to their insane regeneration.

Dietrich then tells the two those demon(11 in total) are the products of the org by mixing the flesh and blood of an AB with human. They have no self consciousness and will only go after the yoki they have been programmed to.

Abyssal Hunters, is the name the org has given them.

Ryuken

2009-01-31, 13:07

It's ok guys, I was a little puzzled, because I didn't remember posting a spoiler. Although I did reply to it, I think what you saw was the reply to the post @G.:)

And about the ZCS, I had originally thought that the Org was behind these mysterious ZCS. But if that spoiler about them being connected to the Dragons is true, then there is something definitely very wrong going on, on the other side that is.:)

Ryuken

2009-01-31, 13:15

new spoiler coming from a supposely more creditable source on 2ch

Helen attacks the demons who suddenly appear at the battle field but loses her right hand/arm and left eye as the result.

With the help of Dietrich, the 3 was able to escpe the battle field as the demons seemed to be focused on Isley, and they appear to have a slight advantage over awakened Isley due to their insane regeneration.

Dietrich then tells the two those demon(11 in total) are the products of the org by mixing the flesh and blood of an AB with human. They have no self consciousness and will only go after the yoki they have been programmed to.

Abyssal Hunters, is the name the org has given them.

Aside from the fact that Helen loosing her eye and arm, I like this spoiler. And also the fact that Isley is getting a pounding. But why shouldn't he? He should, if what the spoiler suggest is true. The fact that they are called Abyssal Hunters and if they are programed to target the Abyssal Isley. Very interesting indeed. Don't know how to call this one. Maybe true, maybe not.:)

MisterJB

2009-01-31, 13:15

new spoiler coming from a supposely more creditable source on 2ch

Helen attacks the demons who suddenly appear at the battle field but loses her right hand/arm and left eye as the result.

With the help of Dietrich, the 3 was able to escpe the battle field as the demons seemed to be focused on Isley, and they appear to have a slight advantage over awakened Isley due to their insane regeneration.

Dietrich then tells the two those demon(11 in total) are the products of the org by mixing the flesh and blood of an AB with human. They have no self consciousness and will only go after the yoki they have been programmed to.

Abyssal Hunters, is the name the org has given them.

Left eye? Good Lord.:upset: Poor Helen

If this spoiler is true then we finally get our answer about what would happen if thye used AB's flesh instead of Yoma.
Still, what about the scar? Maybe the way their faces are is their scars

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-31, 13:38

:upset: I hope that spoiler isn't true. Helen could reattach her arm, assuming she has time, but that eye... I don't want Helen to get tore up like that.

Ryuken

2009-01-31, 13:42

:upset: I hope that spoiler isn't true. Helen could reattach her arm, assuming she has time, but that eye... I don't want Helen to get tore up like that.

The eye could be regenerated, couldn't it?:)

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-31, 13:47

The eye could be regenerated, couldn't it?:)

Helen is an offensive type. And even if she could, being an offensive type would mean it wouldn't be as good as before. Anyway, if she loses her arm and it gets destroyed, I guess Deneve could give her, her arm and then regenerate a new one. BTW, if an offensive Claymore attaches an arm from a Defensive Claymore, would that arm have regenerative qualities?

Ryuken

2009-01-31, 13:55

Helen is an offensive type. And even if she could, being an offensive type would mean it wouldn't be as good as before. Anyway, if she loses her arm and it gets destroyed, I guess Deneve could give her, her arm and then regenerate a new one. BTW, if an offensive Claymore attaches an arm from a Defensive Claymore, would that arm have regenerative qualities?

Probably would have regenerative qualities.:)

Sleepy Speculator

2009-01-31, 13:56

hehe fake spoilers, well before we all get wonderfully carried away again, i'd like to share a thought i had about those bandits which i forgot to put in.

What happened to the pot of gold?

Bandits like money right?, yet that village had likely already handed over the big ol' bag of money that makes the village worth attacking in the first place to Orsay.

If the bandits were after that money, how comes we hear no mention of it, only an order from the bandit leader to take the women. And that is assuming they are stupid enough to risk angering the org to take it's prize money. If however the village had already given the money to Orsay, what's the point of attacking a bunch of poor people, unless your after a different commodity. It's been repeatedly implied even in Teresa's arc that the cost of a yoma extermination is exorbitant and can pretty much bankrupt a village. And whilst that's a worthy prize i don't see many bandit groups as being stupid enough to try and take it, especially if they have heard the rumours that Teresa re-itterates about what happens to those who don't pay.

Orsay was definately close enough to watch what was going on and seemed unconcerned about any money, the same as you don't see the bandit leader shouting anything about finding the extermination fee. Instead the next time we see Orsay he has his hands firmly on Clare as Teresa is expected to submit for execution. (IMO that was what the prize was all along)

... Erm Helen could regenerate a human eye i think, but she can't regenerate a stretchy or claymore strength arm.

Alle

2009-01-31, 13:58

I just finsished reading up on this manga and have been browsing around this forum for a bit.
If this spoiler is true it's no wonder isley is in a faul mode.

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-31, 14:06

Bandits like money right?, yet that village had likely already handed over the big ol' bag of money that makes the village worth attacking in the first place to Orsay.

They could've been after the women; they do say something along the lines of kill the men and take the women to which I fully agree. :D

... Erm Helen could regenerate a human eye i think, but she can't regenerate a stretchy or claymore strength arm.

Yes, but even to a defensive type it becomes harder and harder to regenerate the longer you wait. The time for an offensive type to do that is probably even less, and Helen may not have enough time to do it given the battle. In fact, you remember Ophelia mocking clare, telling her she better hurry up trying to reattach that leg? That it will get harder the longer she waits? If reattaching a missing limb is that hard, imagine how hard regenerating for an Offensive Claymore must be. It obviously isn't a given success.

Sleepy Speculator

2009-01-31, 14:48

Well we've only got Irene's word to go on, when it comes to regeneration capabilities of offensive types. But she still implied it required a great deal of effort and time. Something she wouldn't put into the missing arm. (likely because of yoki use)

MisterJB

2009-01-31, 16:15

Rubel said tha offensive can regenerate lost eyes but if Helen doesn't have the time, then she will probrably end like Raphaela

racjona

2009-01-31, 16:51

eeehhhmmm :twitch:

Sleepy Speculator

2009-01-31, 17:16

theevilanimal..

erm the org wanted controllable awakened beings by all accounts the abyssal ones and most all awakened beings are uncontrollable monsters, like exceptionally strong yoma and hard to eradicate. It's implied that the entirety of the org would have difficulty fighting an abyssal let alone Priscilla

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-31, 17:24

why would the org want to kill abyssals?
I thought they were what the organization ultimately wanted to create.

Like sleepy said, they want a controlled one. The org also didn't mind the Abyssals as long as they remained Dwellers of the Deep, never really causing much trouble, but then Isley had to get greedy and try to take over the Isle.

Stream

2009-01-31, 17:35

Thank you Jonova.

new spoiler coming from a supposely more creditable source on 2ch

クレイモア

突然現れた悪魔たちに、斬り掛かるヘレンだったが
逆に右腕を断たれ左目も潰されてしまう
ディートリヒが助けに加わり
またイースレイが覚醒体になり悪魔の相手をしている間に
なんとか戦場を離脱する三人
すぐさま再生する悪魔に劣勢を強いられるイースレイ
ディートリヒの口から悪魔の正体が明かされる
曰く、組織による妖魔ではなく覚醒者の血肉を使い生成された戦士で
自我を取り除かれ、たった一つ覚え込まされた餌(イースレイ)だけを
追い求める絶対的な生命体である
深淵喰い…11体の悪魔に組織はそう名付けた
4月号につづく

Jonova's TL and spoiler both seem right imo. This scenario sounds rather plausible to me.

Line by line translation:CLAYMORE

Helen attacked the demons who suddenly arrived, but
on the contrary, her right arm is cut off and her left eye is completely smashed.
Dietrich came to rescue them.
Still, Isley in his awakened being form is designated as the target of the demons in the meantime.
The three somehow manage to get away from the battlefield.
The immediately regenerating demons overpower the outnumbered Isley.
The demons' true character is divulged from Dietrich's mouth.
That is to say, they are soldiers created by the organization using the flesh and blood of awakened beings.
Having no sense of self, the only thing that they remember is to draw near to feed on Isley alone.
It is a life-form whose absolute purpose is to pursue.
Abyssal Eaters, the group of 11 demons are called by the organization.
To be continued in the April issue.
As always, I'd like to point out that the current issue is the March issue, not the February issue (that was last month), so this is only saying that the story will be continued next month.

hell88

2009-01-31, 17:49

Thank you Jonova.

Jonova's TL and spoiler both seem right imo. This scenario sounds rather plausible to me.

Line by line translation:CLAYMORE

Helen attacked the demons who suddenly arrived, but
on the contrary, her right arm is cut off and her left eye is completely smashed.
Dietrich came to rescue them.
Still, Isley in his awakened being form is designated as the target of the demons in the meantime.
The three somehow manage to get away from the battlefield.
The immediately regenerating demons overpower the outnumbered Isley.
The demons' true character is divulged from Dietrich's mouth.
That is to say, they are soldiers created by the organization using the flesh and blood of awakened beings.
Having no sense of self, the only thing that they remember is to draw near to feed on Isley alone.
It is a life-form whose absolute purpose is to pursue.
Abyssal Eaters, the group of 11 demons are called by the organization.
To be continued in the April issue.
As always, I'd like to point out that the current issue is the March issue, not the February issue (that was last month), so this is only saying that the story will be continued next month.

This seems very real.

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-31, 17:54

:frustrated: Ah shoots that Continued in April issue clenched it for me, the fake spoilers never seem to include that, but the real ones do. :upset:

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-31, 17:58

This may also further support the speculation that DoD don't have Yoki; otherwise, I would think that these ZACS would be good on DoD too if they work on Abyssals.

chibamonster

2009-01-31, 18:11

MisterJB

2009-01-31, 18:28

If these things are creations of the organization, I am curious why they even have their claymores fighting AB's. If not for the ghosts they would have lost quite a few single digits already along with quite a few other claymores. These warriors have been very loyal for the most part so it doesn't seem like it is time for a purge. Unless they are finishing up their experiment.

I think it makes sense. Those girls with Clarice said that the Org was hunting ABs everytime they heard about a new one. Probrably, they are trying to gain materials to make more zombies and only the single digits know about this. And if they have a reduced number of zombies, then its logical they would sent them against the biggest threat to the Org and that is the Abyssal Ones

ps: I'm really hoping Isley survives and joins the ghosts altough it's almost impossible

Bikerider

2009-01-31, 18:37

Does any one see Clare as being the origin of the Zombie experiment.
Plating a human with a warrior's flesh didn't seem to work. Let's amp it up. Let's try Awakened Beings. Let's see it that works better.

Hey Isley... It's payback time.

Negativedark

2009-01-31, 18:42

Well I'm going to wait and see if the spoilers are true. And shouldn't they be in spoiler tags? Anyways, here's my reaction.

I don't think the eye is too huge a problem for Helen even if she's an offensive type. Rubel outright stated that Raphelea could regenerate hers dispite bieng an offensive. The arm is more of a problem, if she couldn't recover it. And hell, Deneve would probably be willing to give her one. Although I figure it'd go better if Cynthia were present to help. As for the ZCS bieng AB hunters, it's interesting, but considering how much of the south they are supposed to have destroyed, I wonder if it's a good idea on the Orgs part. Are they also uncontrollable? And they have to have some good offense in addition to regeneration in order to be a threat to Isley.

Janoodles

2009-01-31, 19:14

That is to say, they are soldiers created by the organization using the flesh and blood of awakened beings.

Poor humans :( (if they are using them to create the soldiers...)

Vinak

2009-01-31, 19:38

Well I'm going to wait and see if the spoilers are true. And shouldn't they be in spoiler tags? Anyways, here's my reaction.

No, no they shouldn't :dots:

PureYoki

2009-01-31, 19:53

If the spoilers are true, then there are lots of questions:

1) How come these zombies don't emit any yoki?

2) How come Riful doesn't know anything about them?

3) Why did they stay only in the south for all these years?

4) If they only feed on Abyssal Ones, how come they don't starve to death or shrink like Priscilla?

4) Who was their AB donor? Why are those zombies so strong?

5) Why was half of the south destroyed if they don't directly target humans?

6) Why did Isley try to attract them by releasing yoki if he isn't strong enough to handle them?

7) What will the org do if the zombies destroy all the continent after they kill Isley?

8) Why didn't people in Rabona never mention them, any traveller from the south could tell the situation to other people in the island. (And if half of the south was destroyed, I bet there would be lots of travellers.)

9) Which one is worse from the org's point of view? Isley who has been doing nothing in the south for all those years or Abyssal Eaters who destroyed half of the south and may go on a rampage to eradicate the island.

10) Lots of people are dying, will the org cease the experiment? Where will their orphans come from in the future?

MisterJB

2009-01-31, 20:09

4) Who was their AB donor? Why are those zombies so strong?

[/SPOILER]

11 ABs of unusual power attacked the Org seven years ago and now these zombies are also 11. So, I think that Isley is being hunted by the remains of his own old army who are now inside those women
Ironic

PureYoki

2009-01-31, 20:19

11 ABs of unusual power attacked the Org seven years ago and now these zombies are also 11. So, I think that Isley is being hunted by the remains of his own old army who are now inside those women
Ironic

You may be right. Those 11 ABs were no match for an AO, so it seems hybridization made them much stronger.

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-31, 20:25

I think it makes sense. Those girls with Clarice said that the Org was hunting ABs everytime they heard about a new one. Probrably, they are trying to gain materials to make more zombies and only the single digits know about this. And if they have a reduced number of zombies, then its logical they would sent them against the biggest threat to the Org and that is the Abyssal Ones

ps: I'm really hoping Isley survives and joins the ghosts altough it's almost impossible

That's some good analysis.

I don't think the eye is too huge a problem for Helen even if she's an offensive type. Rubel outright stated that Raphelea could regenerate hers dispite bieng an offensive. The arm is more of a problem, if she couldn't recover it. And hell, Deneve would probably be willing to give her one. Although I figure it'd go better if Cynthia were present to help. As for the ZCS bieng AB hunters, it's interesting, but considering how much of the south they are supposed to have destroyed, I wonder if it's a good idea on the Orgs part. Are they also uncontrollable? And they have to have some good offense in addition to regeneration in order to be a threat to Isley.

Bah, it's a bit too cumbersome to put discussion about spoilers in spoiler tags. The problem I see with the eye is that it probably would be a human eye. And then :heh: Helen would have to wear a monocle. As for the orgs ideas, I still think the org is short sighted, blinded by their supposed success of Alicia and Beth.

If the spoilers are true, then there are lots of questions:

1) How come these zombies don't emit any yoki?

That can be easily explained away in several ways. Considering that they are the predators and abyssals are the prey, it would make perfect sense for them to suppress their yoki in order to creep up to their prey.

2) How come Riful doesn't know anything about them?

Riful's single focus is Priscilla, why would she care if someone is harming Isley? Who says she doesn't know?

3) Why did they stay only in the south for all these years?

Because they are specifically designed to go after Isley.

4) If they only feed on Abyssal Ones, how come they don't starve to death or shrink like Priscilla?

well fed?

4) Who was their AB donor? Why are those zombies so strong?

The ones the single digits are hunting. They are strong cause they regenerate fast, according to the spoiler.

5) Why was half of the south destroyed if they don't directly target humans?

Where do we find Isley at in this arc?

6) Why did Isley try to attract them by releasing yoki if he isn't strong enough to handle them?

That remains to be seen. It could've been to reveal Helen and Deneve.

7) What will the org do if the zombies destroy all the continent after they kill Isley?

From reading the spoiler, it seems that they are specifically designed to go after Isley.

8) Why didn't people in Rabona never mention them, any traveller from the south could tell the situation to other people in the island. (And if half of the south was destroyed, I bet there would be lots of travellers.)

They've could've assumed it was common knowledge. There could be a cover up? Maybe Helen and Deneve left before anyone thought about telling it to the warriors.

9) Which one is worse from the org's point of view? Isley who has been doing nothing in the south for all those years or Abyssal Eaters who destroyed half of the south and may go on a rampage to eradicate the island.

Isley tried to conquer the isle. Priscilla did not raise the army of Awakeneds, and it was not done for her benefit. Isley, alone, is responsible for starting war, destroying the peace that was behind Abyssals.

10) Lots of people are dying, will the org cease the experiment? Where will their orphans come from in the future?

They have Alicia, so continued experimenting on other Claymores isn't as valuable to them perhaps.

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-31, 20:26

11 ABs of unusual power attacked the Org seven years ago and now these zombies are also 11. So, I think that Isley is being hunted by the remains of his own old army who are now inside those women
Ironic

Geez :) you're doing all the good analysis today. :D

PureYoki

2009-01-31, 21:20

That can be easily explained away in several ways. Considering that they are the predators and abyssals are the prey, it would make perfect sense for them to suppress their yoki in order to creep up to their prey.

Claymores are predators of yoma and ABs but they can't completely suppress their yoki. Yes, it makes perfect sense but I thought the org didn't have the technology to make each and every hybrid a super-suppressor.

Riful's single focus is Priscilla, why would she care if someone is harming Isley? Who says she doesn't know?

She didn't mention the situation to Clare and she talked as if Isley and Priscilla were still together and could attack other parties any moment. She is desperately trying to awaken Raciella who has the power to kill her.

Because they are specifically designed to go after Isley.

How is it possible to program them?

well fed?

With other ABs?

The ones the single digits are hunting. They are strong cause they regenerate fast, according to the spoiler.

It may be the 11 ABs that MisterJB mentioned.

Where do we find Isley at in this arc?

Why did Isley change his mind and begin socializing with people?

That remains to be seen. It could've been to reveal Helen and Deneve.

Was he even aware of their presence? What's his point in killing 2,3 or 5 claymores?

They've could've assumed it was common knowledge. There could be a cover up? Maybe Helen and Deneve left before anyone thought about telling it to the warriors.

If they knew it but still didn't tell the claymores for some reason, it means they actually don't worry about claymores' well-being. Even if they assumed it was common knowledge, they could mention it anyhow to be on the safe side. In the worst case Galatea could say something.

Isley tried to conquer the isle. Priscilla did not raise the army of Awakeneds, and it was not done for her benefit. Isley, alone, is responsible for starting war, destroying the peace that was behind Abyssals.

Isley's main goal was to kill Luciela and the org knew it. What is the point in provoking Isley (and Priscilla?) to attack them while they're residing in the south doing nothing?

They have Alicia, so continued experimenting on other Claymores isn't as valuable to them perhaps.

If they have programmable AO-eaters, why does the org need Alicia or other claymores? Reprogram them to eat DODs and game over.

P.S. Maybe it's best to wait for the confirmation of the spoilers because we will be talking for nothing. :D

Vinak

2009-01-31, 21:33

holy multi-quotes Batman!

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-01-31, 22:06

@PureYoki

I wouldn't go as far as saying that Claymores are predators of Awakened Beings; the awakened beings are still on top of the food chain, the org is just better organized . And while it maybe debated that Claymores are predators of Yoma, they are not their natural predators. What I mean is that these ZACS eat Isley, that he is their natural prey, so it would make sense for them to have a natural way to sneak up to their source of food. As for how the org has evolved them to focus in on Isley is a mystery, but remember this is a lab we are talking about, and what does the org do? Experiment?

Out of curiosity, since I'm lazy, do you know exactly what Riful said? Was Isley mentioned in the same breath? It is important. But basically, if not, then why would she mention Isley at all, since Clare main enemy is Priscilla and Riful main enemy is Priscilla. Riful is creating Raciella for Priscilla and not Isley. Also, Isley is not socializing with anybody; he is a man being hunted and is probably just using the humans for cover. He certainly didn't seem too concern just now when he was destroying that town trying to get Helen and Deneve. Speaking of the troublesome ones, he may have suspected them to be Claymoers, but they weren't giving out auras. Remember that Deneve fell to the ground because of his aura?

Why would Isley's main goal be to kill Luciela? That doesn't make much sense to me? Conquest makes much more sense. With Luciela out of the picture, he thought he had it made; he didn't expect Raki and Priscilla to go off on their own, much like Miria has plans that are incompatible with Clare who has never agreed to be part of her army in the first place. Without Priscilla, he can't continue his next phase of his conquest and take out Riful, because then Alicia would take him down. He didn't need the awakeneds to conquer; they were just cannon fodder -- a smoke screen. He is a most troublesome awakened being, with too much ambition, which is why the org decided to act. That is not to say that Riful herself isn't troublesome., but in the context of things Isley destroyed the status quo, and the other abyssals actions are a direct result of his. As for your last question, it means ya prolly skimmed over what I said initially. I said that it seems to support speculation on here that DoDs don't use yoki. If DoDs don't release yoki, then ZACS won't go after them. So Zombie Amazon Claymore Strippers don't work against DoDs, just Abyssal pimps like Isley. :)

Alle

2009-01-31, 22:56

How about this then isley went south thinking to conquer the island, but priscilla hade no intrest in that some thing hapend back then and now she's travaling whit raki.
maybe this is isley's way of getting priscilla angry at the org why els would he be staing in those citys?
i meen he should know the org don't care how many humans die.

edited* priscilla's old village was in the south and she seem to be some what attached to it.

clarakiss~

2009-02-01, 01:03

it's still too early for isley to make an exit so it's seems unlikely that he will. if he wanted to go, he'd be battling it out with riful, the org, rafaela/luciela, clare and priscilla in a battle royale like battle.

maybe he has something up his sleeve? we all know he's always one step ahead of everyone. ^^;

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-02-01, 02:03

I still say Isley is unlucky for the there-are-way-too-many-big-bosses-someone-has-to-go dilemma in the story. The way I see it. Raciella is going to take out both Riful and Alicia&Beth: Riful because she will be the mother who betrays her daughter, Alicia and Beth because there are too many parallels linking them, that Alicia and Beth are supposed to be the successful version of Luciella and Rafaela. I just think that Isley has outlived his usefulness to the story, and that Alicia and Beth and Riful are going to die after him -- just a hunch.

mosmos

2009-02-01, 02:39

I hope Isley dont die !!

He is the last of the male awakened one ...

i forgot about duff again.. sorry

clarakiss~

2009-02-01, 02:44

isley lost his usefulness? no no no i think not. he'll be around until things gets very serious. ^^; i already know this :p

MisterJB

2009-02-01, 05:38

Someone was questioning why the ZCS goes after Isley. Well, if we are assumpting that those ZCS are indeed made from the flesh of Isley's army of ABs that attcked the Org, then maybe the AB part of the ZCS blame Isley for their death and they want revenge.

Still, I think it's another way around. We, the humans, can train dogs to attack people, the Org must have spend some years training the ZCS to focus on Isley

Also, I want to add something to my speculation bach there. I think that the Org can't send the ZCS to hunt ABs because they probrably need the brain or another organ of the ABs to make zombies and I don't think that the ZCS understand the concept of "Don't destroy the brain!". Who says brain can also say another organ, these ZCS maybe even eat ABs, afterall, they started salivating when they found Isley

Isley isn't going to die, at least not now. I see this happening, this chapters ends with a little action scene of him against ZCS. Next chapter we change to Clare's group. Riful Awakens Raciella but she goes berserk, she kill Dauph and almost kill Riful. This takes two or three chapters and in the next we see Isley really wounded with ZCS dead on the ground. He tryes to recuperate but Raciella appears, she remembers what he did to her and she kills him.
And there you go, Luciela the mightiest force on the Continent

I think Isley didn't want to conquer the whole Continent because if he did, then the moves he made were a failure from the beginning. Spliting his forces and send them against Riful and Alicia was a move that he knew that would leave him without an army. And the triangle of power still exists but he knows that Riful would never join with the Org so, in my opinion, he simply wanted to eliminate the only threat to Priscilla's life and that was an alliance between Riful and Luciela. He chose Luciela because she was alone while Riful still had Dauph with her

evil_kenshin

2009-02-01, 06:28

I hope Isley dont die !!

He is the last of the male awakened one ...

i forgot about duff again.. sorry

not necessary true, we saw a male awakened only a few chapters ago (the one helen and deneve finished off along with Dietrich) but true the only two significant male AB's at moment are Isley and duff.

But i doubt this is how the Silver King will go out, dying against some non important characters. If anything it will be the hybrid Rafaela and Lucelia that will finish him off (revenge for her defeat 7 years ago).

PureYoki

2009-02-01, 07:02

What I mean is that these ZACS eat Isley, that he is their natural prey, so it would make sense for them to have a natural way to sneak up to their source of food.

If every claymore had been a natural yoki-suppressor like Priscilla, it would have been very useful from the org's point of view, look what yoki-suppressed Helen did to Isley the AO by herself. The zombies certainly release yoki and thus they must have a traceable yoki aura (this is (was?) a basic concept in claymore manga), I hope next chapters explain how the org succeeded to give a super ability to every test subject because we didn't know the org had such resources until now.

As for how the org has evolved them to focus in on Isley is a mystery, but remember this is a lab we are talking about, and what does the org do? Experiment?

There is a possibility that zombies attack every AB. One of the zombies sniffed Dietrich as if to understand whether she is an AB or not. (just like Ophelia did to Clare)

Out of curiosity, since I'm lazy, do you know exactly what Riful said? Was Isley mentioned in the same breath? It is important. But basically, if not, then why would she mention Isley at all, since Clare main enemy is Priscilla and Riful main enemy is Priscilla. Riful is creating Raciella for Priscilla and not Isley.

It's Chapter 71 Page 23. Riful said that Isley & Priscilla could conquer all the lands and nobody could stop them. So yes, Riful mentioned Isley.

Also, Isley is not socializing with anybody; he is a man being hunted and is probably just using the humans for cover. He certainly didn't seem too concern just now when he was destroying that town trying to get Helen and Deneve. Speaking of the troublesome ones, he may have suspected them to be Claymoers, but they weren't giving out auras. Remember that Deneve fell to the ground because of his aura?

Isley was releasing yoki even before Helen & Deneve entered the town. So it was obviously to attract something else, he wasn't hiding. But if he wasn't hiding, what was he doing among humans?

Why would Isley's main goal be to kill Luciela? That doesn't make much sense to me? Conquest makes much more sense. With Luciela out of the picture, he thought he had it made; he didn't expect Raki and Priscilla to go off on their own, much like Miria has plans that are incompatible with Clare who has never agreed to be part of her army in the first place.

He had lots of time to attack the org and Riful, he's just stayed silent for years until Raki left with Priscilla. It seems his main goal was to protect Priscilla from any danger by eliminating Luciela. Yes, it doesn't make much sense but Isley doesn't make much sense lately. :)

That is not to say that Riful herself isn't troublesome.

Actually I think Riful is more troublesome at the moment, she is hunting down claymores to make them allies. She captured the eye of the org.

I said that it seems to support speculation on here that DoDs don't use yoki. If DoDs don't release yoki, then ZACS won't go after them. So Zombie Amazon Claymore Strippers don't work against DoDs, just Abyssal pimps like Isley. :)

Yes, you have a point, apparently DODs don't use yoki. (But if the org is so smart, they can figure out something to drive the zombies against DODs in war. :) )

Ryuken

2009-02-01, 08:29

not necessary true, we saw a male awakened only a few chapters ago (the one helen and deneve finished off along with Dietrich) but true the only two significant male AB's at moment are Isley and duff.

But i doubt this is how the Silver King will go out, dying against some non important characters. If anything it will be the hybrid Rafaela and Lucelia that will finish him off (revenge for her defeat 7 years ago).

Maybe what @mosmos was trying to say is that Isley is the last Abyssal One, not the Awakened One, there are quite a few awakened males but not abyssal males.:eyebrow:

And yes @e_k, I also don't think that this is the end of the Sliver King.:)

evil_kenshin

2009-02-01, 08:56

Maybe what @mosmos was trying to say is that Isley is the last Abyssal One, not the Awakened One, there are quite a few awakened males but not abyssal males.:eyebrow:

And yes @e_k, I also don't think that this is the end of the Sliver King.:)

nah he proved he was talking about just awakened beings by mentioning duff, duff and abyssal do not belong in the same sentence :p

Negativedark

2009-02-01, 10:16

I finally put my finger on what was bothering me. If Dietrich knew what the ZCS were, why didn't she tell Helen and Deneve about it when talking about how the towns had been destroyed?

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-02-01, 10:26

Isley isn't going to die, at least not now. I see this happening, this chapters ends with a little action scene of him against ZCS. Next chapter we change to Clare's group. Riful Awakens Raciella but she goes berserk, she kill Dauph and almost kill Riful. This takes two or three chapters and in the next we see Isley really wounded with ZCS dead on the ground. He tryes to recuperate but Raciella appears, she remembers what he did to her and she kills him.
And there you go, Luciela the mightiest force on the Continent

I think Raciella is going to take out Alicia and Beth and then Riful. So adding Isley to that mix would be a bit much and unoriginal. If Isley is going to survive, I see a conflict between him and Priscilla and Raki.

I think Isley didn't want to conquer the whole Continent because if he did, then the moves he made were a failure from the beginning. Spliting his forces and send them against Riful and Alicia was a move that he knew that would leave him without an army. And the triangle of power still exists but he knows that Riful would never join with the Org so, in my opinion, he simply wanted to eliminate the only threat to Priscilla's life and that was an alliance between Riful and Luciela. He chose Luciela because she was alone while Riful still had Dauph with her

It was made quite clear from listening to Abyssal talking -- yagi talking to us -- that such Army was of little use, a pure smoke screen, a distraction to gain him time to take out Luciela. The point is simple, an abyssal does not need awakened beings to fight. Isley just wanted to keep both the Org and Riful occupied while he went after Luciela. Also I don't see what makes you think that he is so kind hearted when it comes to Priscilla. He just used the little loli, he lied to her, and nothing that he did was for her benefit. Explain to me exactly how starting a war between Abyssals helped Priscilla? It did remove any threat to her, or any threat to his biggest weapon. Let's get the facts straight: Isley lied to Priscilla the moment he met her, smooth talking his way out of his demise, making a pledge to Priscilla that he didn't intend to complete, that he hasn't tried to complete, that is impossible to complete. He isn't in such bad shape from trying to find mama and papa after all. He gained a child's trust and loyalty under false pretenses, so lets stop trying to paint him as heroic and noble when he hasn't shown himself to be so.

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-02-01, 10:51

Perhaps all it takes is a hair from Isley to add to the mix at a specific type -- bubble, bubble, toils, and trouble -- and so the org can somehow manage for the Zacs to go after specifically Isley opposed to Riful. And Riful hasn't caused near as much trouble as Isley, yet. The org holds Isley responsible for starting the war in the north, a potential disastrous time for the org, and hold him responsible too for any reaction he got out of Riful and Luciela at that time. Riful has only become really troublesome as of late, and she may soon find herself being attacked by ZACS, which she could easily take out with Raciella. As for the bit about Isley coulda conquered all the lands if he wanted to; no he couldn't. He went through step 1 and took out anything that could take out his main weapon Priscilla. Then when he was about to go to step 2 of his plan, Raki decided to leave, because he like Clare has an objective that is more important than any other alliances and friendships. Priscilla loves Raki -- one way or another -- and so she decides to leave Isley too, whose friendship or alliance with her is based on that he is supposed to help find her family. Priscilla has calmed down, and she is not after taking out any Abyssal beings; she doesn't even know that Riful is after her, nor does she know Clare is after her. She just wants to be with Raki. As for Isley releasing that yoki in town before Helen and Deneve, I have no answer for that, yet, just speculation. It could've been to try to signal Priscilla for help. Who knows? He isn't quite rational either way anymore.

PureYoki

2009-02-01, 11:25

It was made quite clear from listening to Abyssal talking -- yagi talking to us -- that such Army was of little use, a pure smoke screen, a distraction to gain him time to take out Luciela. The point is simple, an abyssal does not need awakened beings to fight.

But Riful has been looking for allies since we first saw her, so I think an abyssal may need awakened beings to fight. At least Yagi showed us so.

Perhaps all it takes is a hair from Isley to add to the mix at a specific type -- bubble, bubble, toils, and trouble -- and so the org can somehow manage for the Zacs to go after specifically Isley opposed to Riful.

We'll have a better idea when we learn the actual goal of zombies but I don't think half of the south was destroyed due to the fight between Isley and the zombies. One side would certainly lose until now.

As for the bit about Isley coulda conquered all the lands if he wanted to; no he couldn't. He went through step 1 and took out anything that could take out his main weapon Priscilla. Then when he was about to go to step 2 of his plan, Raki decided to leave, because he like Clare has an objective that is more important than any other alliances and friendships. Priscilla loves Raki -- one way or another -- and so she decides to leave Isley too, whose friendship or alliance with her is based on that he is supposed to help find her family.

It seems Raki had spent quite an amount of time with Isley, so I think Isley had enough time to fulfil the second stage of his plan if there was indeed a second stage of the plan.

Isley could get rid of Raki and tell Priscilla that Raki was nowhere to be found but he didnt. Priscilla has been on a diet for seven years, so it seems Isley let Raki make Priscilla go on a diet and he probably gave his own armor and sword to Raki when they left.

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-02-01, 13:18

But Riful has been looking for allies since we first saw her, so I think an abyssal may need awakened beings to fight. At least Yagi showed us so.

We'll have a better idea when we learn the actual goal of zombies but I don't think half of the south was destroyed due to the fight between Isley and the zombies. One side would certainly lose until now.

It seems Raki had spent quite an amount of time with Isley, so I think Isley had enough time to fulfil the second stage of his plan if there was indeed a second stage of the plan.

Isley could get rid of Raki and tell Priscilla that Raki was nowhere to be found but he didnt. Priscilla has been on a diet for seven years, so it seems Isley let Raki make Priscilla go on a diet and he probably gave his own armor and sword to Raki when they left.

Before Riful was looking for ABs to match Isley Army, which didn't seem very effective against Abyssal, or the org. At one point her focus was on Isley, now her focus is on Priscilla, and she was looking for a very specific Claymore, a sensor type; although, she didn't mind if she made a friend along the way. The way I see it: Isley never found an Army to be useful; Luciela gave up on the notion as well. Riful may not fully have abandoned the idea, or perhaps she grew to like the notion of making friends. Her logic isn't quite the same as ours; it is hard to say.

I do think that the south has been decimated between the fighting of those ZACS and Isley. Isley has no regard for human life, he has already decimated the north, not leaving a trace of human life. Both Isley and the ZACS can regenerate, and I am sure that Isley eventually flees to the next town when things go badly. It's a slow process that has taken years.

Now as for Raki and Isley being together for a long time -- a view I assume you hold because of Raki skill of sword -- I don't hold that view at all. In fact, I say that if Raki runs into Isley now that the two of them will have to fight to the death. Isley hasn't stopped feeding on humans -- he isn't chibi -- he is responsible for the complete eradication of civilization in the North and partially for the ongoing decline of it in the south, using humans towns for cover against the ZACS. Remember that Raki has said that he would have to try and put Priscilla down if she ever feeds on a human again? It's a sad fate the two of them have accepted, and Priscilla has become like family to him. So if he would put down Family like Priscilla, why would he spare just a friend? Something had to give to split those three apart. The deception that Isley was playing on Raki couldn't last forever. Raki stance against Awakened Beings feeding on humans had to gained strength at some point.

Now back to your argument -- I assume -- that Raki had to have spend a lot of time training under Isley. Well, First I believe that the attacks on the south happened soon after the war in the north. That means that the ZACS been attacking Isley since then. Would they be effective with Priscilla around, able to regenerate themselves quickly enough before decimation? Why would Raki and Priscilla then abandoned Isley if that is the case? I think the split happened shortly after Isley killed Luciela. I don't know if Raki learned about Isley plans, which is something his character couldn't stand for, or if Raki's need to find Clare overcame him. But I am positive the split happened early on because of the ZACS. The ZACS most likely were activated when the org saw that Priscilla left Isley, thus making success likely. Now to explain how Raki became so good at sword fighting, well, it is basically a story that has been told many times. A sword fighter with some training goes on a journey. He has a natural talent for the sword, and at first isn't the most experienced swordsman, but as he fights demon after demon he gains experience and skill. Oh sure, the Isley training Raki would better explain his skill, but how many tales of sword fighters gaining their own experience are out there? It is the whole concept behind role playing games when it comes to fighters, and Raki has had Priscilla there to save his butt while his skill at the sword increased. So I think Raki has a year's worth of training from Isley, and then real world experience, and after seven years of fighting yoma, he doesn't need Priscilla to save his butt anymore.

And sure Isley could've gotten rid of Raki, but it was a risky move that could cost him his life. Once Priscilla met raki, she glomped onto him and pretty much never let go. There are only a few times that Priscilla isn't with Raki. You sure Isley wants to start this kind of scenario:

*Priscilla comes back from skipping along in the forest*

Isley: Oh, Priscilla!!! I have terrible news! Raki fell and broke his neck.
Priscilla: Raki's dead? Raki's dead! You-- You killed him didn't you? You promised you would find mama and papa. Where's mama and papa? Did you find them? It was all lies. lies! It's all your fault that Mama, Papa, Raki's dead. You've killed them: Mama and Papa ... and Raki!

We've already seen Priscilla break down and blame the deaths on Teresa. Isley already knows that the girl is not all there, or can be crazy. Do you really think he is going to create a situation where she can be so emotionally overwhelmed that she just might lose it again? Isley is no friend of Priscilla; he is a manipulator, who manipulated himself out of being killed by the girl, who made a promise he didn't intend to keep, who planned to use Priscilla for his own purposes, starting a war that had not needed to be started when there was peace. Could he not have taken care of Priscilla in the North? Continued Dwelling in the Deep doing so? The other Abyssals weren't after her then. I don't see anything here that he has done anything for Prissy's sake.

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-02-01, 13:22

Btw, another probable reason of why Isley is hanging around in human towns: He has to feed after battling ZACS to regenerate and replenish energy.

Methuselah

2009-02-01, 14:15

I don't think Raki went renegade. Isley probably ordered Raki to protect Pricilla until the situation has died down. Hence also why Pricilla was on a diet, to keep her Youki suppressed as much as possible so they won't switch their target. Wouldn't that be a twist...

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-02-01, 14:29

;) Out of curiosity, what noble deed has Isley done that makes everyone thing he is noble? I think Isley was such a smooth talker that he has smooth talked some of the readers into his spiel.

iLney

2009-02-01, 14:54

re.

And sure Isley could've gotten rid of Raki, but it was a risky move that could cost him his life. Once Priscilla met raki, she glomped onto him and pretty much never let go. There are only a few times that Priscilla isn't with Raki. You sure Isley wants to start this kind of scenario:

Priscilla was more attached to Isley than Raki 7 years ago.

PureYoki

2009-02-01, 15:00

I do think that the south has been decimated between the fighting of those ZACS and Isley. Isley has no regard for human life, he has already decimated the north, not leaving a trace of human life. Both Isley and the ZACS can regenerate, and I am sure that Isley eventually flees to the next town when things go badly. It's a slow process that has taken years.

I think if Isley has been fighting with demons for seven years, either he would have died or at least some of the demons would have died. Regeneration is up to a point, if you cut your opponent's head into pieces, it dies. (Unless this new breed is immune to any kind of physical damage.) Perhaps the org is continuously sending new demons but I doubt it.

Now as for Raki and Isley being together for a long time -- a view I assume you hold because of Raki skill of sword -- I don't hold that view at all. In fact, I say that if Raki runs into Isley now that the two of them will have to fight to the death..

I think Raki is on good terms with Isley but it remains to be seen.

Remember that Raki has said that he would have to try and put Priscilla down if she ever feeds on a human again? It's a sad fate the two of them have accepted, and Priscilla has become like family to him. So if he would put down Family like Priscilla, why would he spare just a friend?

He said he would do it but I think it's easier said than done. He seems to have feelings for Priscilla, so I don't think he'll attack her.

Now to explain how Raki became so good at sword fighting, well, it is basically a story that has been told many times.

If Raki is still a human, Raki's abilities completely contradict what was said in chapter 1. When we (the forum) first discussed it, most people said it was due to his long time training with Isley. If this is not the case, now the situation is a little bit more awkward. Anyway this is another story, it's not that important for our discussion.

You sure Isley wants to start this kind of scenario:

*Priscilla comes back from skipping along in the forest*

Isley: Oh, Priscilla!!! I have terrible news! Raki fell and broke his neck.
Priscilla: Raki's dead? Raki's dead! You-- You killed him didn't you? You promised you would find mama and papa. Where's mama and papa? Did you find them? It was all lies. lies! It's all your fault that Mama, Papa, Raki's dead. You've killed them: Mama and Papa ... and Raki!

This is where I disagree.

*Priscilla comes back from skipping along in the forest*

Isley: Where is Raki? I thought he was with you.

Priscilla: Nooo! (cries) What happened to Raki?

Isley: I don't know but I promise we'll find him. (just like he'll find her parents :D )

Problem solved. Even if there was the slightest risk of Priscilla going berserk, I think Isley should have taken it. (Riful is taking a much bigger risk right now.) I don't think Isley's situation would be worse than his current condition. In the worst case, Isley could stay away from Priscilla until she calmed down.

I don't see anything here that he has done anything for Prissy's sake.

I used to think so until I saw Raki travelling around with Priscilla, Isley's biggest weapon. Isley could kill Raki the moment he understood Raki might pose a threat but he didn't. Raki somehow affected him, this is why he is still alive.

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-02-01, 15:46

Priscilla was more attached to Isley than Raki 7 years ago.

Opinion. The general gist from what I've seen is Raki tries to save a being that don't need saving. Loli's eye's sparkle; she tackle/glomps onto him and never lets go. Isley comes by, sees that Priscilla has become attached to someone, makes it sound like his idea. :) I am not saying that Priscilla doesn't care for Isley -- she saved him from Riful -- but Isley seems more like a brother, she tackled/glomped onto Raki, which seems to indicate a greater interest. Even without Raki, I don't know if her and Isley's relationship would've lasted forever either; it was based on lies and deception.

I think if Isley has been fighting with demons for seven years, either he would have died or at least some of the demons would have died. Regeneration is up to a point, if you cut your opponent's head into pieces, it dies. (Unless this new breed is immune to any kind of physical damage.) Perhaps the org is continuously sending new demons but I doubt it.

We'll see in the next chapter probably. It sounds like the zacs combined are only slightly stronger than Isley. Isley is a military guy -- even his awakened form suggests that, that was part of his personality -- and strategic retreats are part of military strategies. My theory is that he flees after taking a lot of damage, and the ZACS may need a bit of time to recover too, so he finds a town to hide in, eats humans to regenerate and use for cover. He's fighting a losing battle, and the ZACS are slowly wearing him down bit by bit, but he's probably isn't the kind to give up. I could see the process of fight --> retreat --> regenerate --> repeat, going on for years

I think Raki is on good terms with Isley but it remains to be seen.

I think that Raki has found memories of Isley and they are probably friends. But Raki moral stance in life is incompatible with Isley now.

He said he would do it but I think it's easier said than done. He seems to have feelings for Priscilla, so I don't think he'll attack her.

Sure he will -- I took that as Yagi speaking through his character there -- but Raki might be ironically comforted with the notion that he probably won't survive his moral stance and that Priscilla will live on. But honestly -- and I'm not a Raki fan -- when have you ever heard Raki say something that he truly didn't feel in his heart? I think that is part of his character -- the heartfelt speech he gave to Clare when she was about to awake. Raki may have changed, but the Raki I know would speak from his heart. If that is how Raki truly feels, then him and Isley can't coexist in the same nearby area.

If Raki is still a human, Raki's abilities completely contradicts what was said in chapter 1. When we (the forum) first discussed it, most people said it was due to his long time training with Isley. If this is not the case, now the situation is a little bit more awkward. Anyway this is another story, it's not that important for our discussion.

Too late, Renee has already contradicted, in part, what chapter 1 had said. She says it is possible. "For a human to posses the ability and strength to slay a yoma isn't out of the ordinary." Reading that puts what was in Chapter 1 into context for me. I could interpret it to mean that while there are those rare humans who can slay yoma that they are so few and far in between that they didn't make a difference against the onslaught of yoma Besides that: what was said in chapter one was a story probably invented by the org, since they make the yomas for goodness sake. The island is a medieval matrix of sorts.

This is where I disagree.

*Priscilla comes back from skipping along in the forest*

Isley: Where is Raki? I thought he was with you.

Priscilla: Nooo! (cries) What happened to Raki?

Isley: I don't know but I promise we'll find him. (just like he'll find her parents :D )

Problem solved. Even if there was the slightest risk of Priscilla going berserk, I think Isley should have taken it. (Riful is taking a much bigger risk right now.) I don't think Isley's situation would be worse than his current condition. In the worst case, Isley could stay away from Priscilla until she calmed down.

*Priscilla loli nose twitches*

Priscilla: I smell the blood of a-- a human, of a delicious one, the most delicious one, of RAKI!!! YOU KILLED RAKI!!! :heh: You forget that Abyssal Ones have excellent senses. Priscilla could always be close enough to make sure that Raki is alright without you seeing her. Who knows, maybe Priscilla can even sense Ki besides Yoki and see a Raki blimp in her Radar, which would be a rare quality for an AB if she did possess it.

I used to think so until I saw Raki travelling around with Priscilla, Isley's biggest weapon. Isley could kill Raki the moment he understood Raki might pose a threat but he didn't. Raki somehow affected him, this is why he is still alive.

I don't think it is as easy as you think it is. I think it is far too risky to even try. If he kills Raki, and she finds out, then he's dead.

Tevourious

2009-02-01, 16:28

Not even if he kills him. If he happened to get killed by some other means could set her off. If Raki died, Priss could just very well go beserk on everything, she's unstable as hell.

PureYoki

2009-02-01, 16:29

But honestly -- and I'm not a Raki fan -- when have you ever heard Raki say something that he truly didn't feel in his heart?

Maybe he thinks he can do it but when the time comes, he'll understand that he actually can't. He said what must be said to Renee.

Too late, Renee has already contradicted, in part, what chapter 1 had said. She says it is possible.

I thought Clare's words in chapter 1 were actually Yagi's words who were telling us what we should know about claymore world. A human can't surpass a cheetah in speed no matter what, I thought yoma were that fast compared to humans but it seems I was wrong.

*Priscilla loli nose twitches*

Priscilla: I smell the blood of a-- a human, of a delicious one, the most delicious one, of RAKI!!! YOU KILLED RAKI!!! :heh: You forget that Abyssal Ones have excellent senses.

Isley knew what Priscilla was capable of, he could simply choke Raki to death or break his neck. 1) Priscilla is not smart 2) Priscilla can't sense everything happening around her. (Raki doesn't have yoki)

I don't think it is as easy as you think it is. I think it is far too risky to even try. If he kills Raki, and she finds out, then he's dead.

I think he would have more than 95% chance but even if he had 1% chance of being the king, it would be worth it. It's better than living a miserable life like this and dying in the hands of some zombies.

Supermutant

2009-02-01, 20:22

So much about Raki and Priscilla and Isely remains a mystery, it's hard to sure of anything.

I think it's fair to say that Priscilla is more attached to Raki than Isely, as she had an immediate reaction to his presence when she met him. I'm also curious about the fact that she was looking small when she met Raki, perhaps implying that she hadn't eaten the town he met her in... has she actually gotten smaller since that point in the story?

I can't begin to guess at why Raki is seperate from Isely now, but I think it's fair to say that he wouldn't remain in the company of Isely knowing what he is and what he's done. Given that he knows Priscilla's nature, I suspect that he would have to have learned Isely's too, and then left. Priscilla's presence would be enough to discourage Isely from doing anything. (Notwithstanding any clever plots)

King Lycan

2009-02-01, 22:59

WTF... no claymore for 2 months .. T_T

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-02-01, 23:03

:D You must be new around here? Without going into bothersome details, you can disregard hat next release in april thing.

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-02-01, 23:30

Maybe he thinks he can do it but when the time comes, he'll understand that he actually can't. He said what must be said to Renee.

I think he meant it for the simple reason that I doubt that he will be faced with the task. I still favor the possibility of Clare and Priscilla ending up together without knowing who the other person is, maybe Priscilla will stop talking like clare did, which will move Clare.

I thought Clare's words in chapter 1 were actually Yagi's words who were telling us what we should know about claymore world. A human can't surpass a cheetah in speed no matter what, I thought yoma were that fast compared to humans but it seems I was wrong.

A squirrel can still kill a human if he gets the human at the throat. Now a higly skilled and trained squirrel... :heh:

Isley knew what Priscilla was capable of, he could simply choke Raki to death or break his neck. 1) Priscilla is not smart 2) Priscilla can't sense everything happening around her. (Raki doesn't have yoki)
I think he would have more than 95% chance but even if he had 1% chance of being the king, it would be worth it. It's better than living a miserable life like this and dying in the hands of some zombies.

Anyway I just don't see it that way. I still think it would be a dangerous move for Isley to make. I think Priscilla is unstable and could lose it; Raki is a stabilizing force in her life. I don't think that Priscilla is stupid. She was naive as a Claymore, probably a sinister intelligence like all Abyssals as a horned monster, and then regressed back to an innocent naive child. Nativity is not stupidity, and there is nothing that says that the one horned monster won't ever resurface, analyze all Isley has done, and then kill him for it. There is a bit of ambiguity in your last point, could you please rephrase that one?

SagaraSouske

2009-02-02, 01:49

Chinese Scan will not be out until 4th.

Stream

2009-02-02, 02:04

WTF... no claymore for 2 months .. T_T
How did you manage to read the spoiler and yet not read "As always, I'd like to point out that the current issue is the March issue, not the February issue (that was last month), so this is only saying that the story will be continued next month." written right beneath it?

I'm impressed.

Ryuken

2009-02-02, 02:32

Chinese Scan will not be out until 4th.

Until the 4th you say, must wait till then.:)

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-02-02, 02:37

Until the 4th you say, must wait till then.:)

T_T The 4th and all we have is that evil Undine picture to look at that keeps poping back up. :upset:

Ryuken

2009-02-02, 02:39

T_T The 4th and all we have is that evil Undine picture to look at that keeps poping back up. :upset:

I told you that it would happen.:)

PureYoki

2009-02-02, 04:56

There is a bit of ambiguity in your last point, could you please rephrase that one?

Isley has two choices:

a) Kill Raki, retain Priscilla and be the king of the land.

b) Don't kill Raki, lose Priscilla and eventually get killed by some powerful force who knows Isley is dangerous but alone.

With a good plan, the probability of success for option a is more than 95%. If Priscilla is not Matt Parkman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Parkman#Powers_and_abilities), she'll never think that Isley killed Raki and thus even if she goes berserk for a while (which is doubtful), she won't target Isley directly. (Maybe Raki fell down from a tree and broke his neck, there's no reason to assume that if Raki dies, then Priscilla will blame Isley and Isley will die. And Isley is also Priscilla's friend.)

Option b is a complete failure because Riful and the org know/think Isley has plans to conquer the island. When they learn Isley is alone, they'll take action against him and Isley will eventually die. He has no allies, no visible prospects for survival, nothing. Isley's entire plan is dependent on Priscilla, he can't let go of her so easily. And now we all see Isley, he is in a miserable condition. When I first saw Priscilla with Raki in Chapter 81 (actually chapter 80 but we didn't know it was Priscilla), I thought Isley failed big time but unfortunately Isley couldn't foresee his own failure.

By awakening Raciella, Riful is taking a much bigger risk right now. Ironically Riful is the one who has the balls, not Isley.

mosmos

2009-02-02, 06:00

Until the 4th you say, must wait till then.:)

I cant wait... I want it now !!

PureYoki

2009-02-02, 06:51

Isley is no friend of Priscilla; he is a manipulator, who manipulated himself out of being killed by the girl, who made a promise he didn't intend to keep, who planned to use Priscilla for his own purposes, starting a war that had not needed to be started when there was peace. Could he not have taken care of Priscilla in the North? Continued Dwelling in the Deep doing so? The other Abyssals weren't after her then. I don't see anything here that he has done anything for Prissy's sake.

I think Isley was doing everything for Priscilla's sake, there is no other reasonable explanation for his behaviour:

1) He never said his goal was to conquer all the land. Others assumed it, Yagi made us assume it. His goal was to keep his promise: To go south and look for Priscilla's family. (He probably knew it was futile but he did it anyway to make Priscilla happy.)

2) He sacrificed his whole army. (31 ABs including Rigardo)

3) He risked his own life against Luciela who resided in the south. (A manipulative man would make Priscilla fight, he wouldn't risk himself. He might have died.)

4) He implied to Riful that his top priority was to protect Priscilla.

5) He didn't attack Riful or the org immediately after he killed Luciela. Riful acknowledged that he could do it and kill them all.

6) He let Raki go with Priscilla just because Raki made Priscilla happy.

Isley lost everything, he hit rock bottom in the past seven years. If it wasn't all for Priscilla's sake, he is a prime candidate for Darwin Awards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_awards).