Engrish: The Final Insult [Archive]

GarBhaD

2004-02-18, 07:47

Did you ever noticed how bad is english written and spoken in anime?
The first time I watched an anime character mumbling in "english", it gave me the creeps. In fact, it still sends chills down to my spine every time they try to babble with this language. They have a really bad pronunciation, but it can be understood since their sounds are quite different.

I'm spanish. I didn't learn english as my first or natal language, I'm not a regular english speaker and I may commit lots of errors. But at least I try to improve, god damn it!!!

I tried to be comprehensive with them because of the sound difference. I had similar problems due to spanish pronunciation too. In fact, spanish is much more similar to japanese than english.

But japanese go too far! Not just with their spelling. They make LOTS of writing, grammar and vocabulary errors. The last straw came when I saw the next:

1) Chrno Crusade. Oh my god! They aren't contented with writing bad inside of a manga. They have to do it in the title itself!!! It is too difficult to have a look at a dictionary??? And there's more! In the cover of all the volumes, you can see this atrocity (http://server6.uploadit.org/files/GarBhaD-Image1.jpg).
I guess he isn't trying to say "Draw me" but "Drawed by" or "Made by".

2) Full Moon wo Sagashite. No, this time I'm not complaining about the title. In the anime, there was an episode where the main characters were in an airport. There, you could see a sign with the various airplanes and their destinations, which were important capitals around the world. Well, one capital was "Palis". Yes, Palis. I laughed my ass off. But at the same time, I was horrified by their ignorance and negligence. Not just with plain words, but with important capitals too!!! What will be next? Nyu Yolk? (I'll try to upload a screenshot later).

And there are hundreds of examples. As I said before, I'm not an english speaker so you would think that I couldn't care less. But their disrespectfulness toward other languages and cultures really pisses me off. Why do they try to write in a language they don't know? Why don't they learn a bit about it first?? I always thought that japanese were very respectful. Is this just an undeserved cliche? Where is their respect for english? You could say it isn't very important, but remember that anime is shown on TV. Don't you think they should try to improve a bit if it's going to be watched by the masses?
What do you think about it?

[Note: if you find any errors in my text, please tell me. I'm always striving for perfection and it's been a long time since my last english class :) ]

Yebyosh

2004-02-18, 08:19

Did you ever noticed how bad is english written and spoken in anime?
The first time I watched an anime character mumbling in "english", it gave me the creeps. In fact, it still sends chills down to my spine every time they try to babble with this language. They have a really bad pronunciation, but it can be understood since their sounds are quite different.

I'm spanish. I didn't learn english as my first or natal language, I'm not a regular english speaker and I may commit lots of errors. But at least I try to improve, god damn it!!!

I tried to be comprehensive with them because of the sound difference. I had similar problems due to spanish pronunciation too. In fact, spanish is much more similar to japanese than english.

But japanese go too far! Not just with their spelling. They make LOTS of writing, grammar and vocabulary errors. The last straw came when I saw the next:

1) Chrno Crusade. Oh my god! They aren't contented with writing bad inside of a manga. They have to do it in the title itself!!! It is too difficult to have a look at a dictionary??? And there's more! In the cover of all the volumes, you can see this atrocity (http://server6.uploadit.org/files/GarBhaD-Image1.jpg).
I guess he isn't trying to say "Draw me" but "Drawed by" or "Made by".

2) Full Moon wo Sagashite. No, this time I'm not complaining about the title. In the anime, there was an episode where the main characters were in an airport. There, you could see a sign with the various airplanes and their destinations, which were important capitals around the world. Well, one capital was "Palis". Yes, Palis. I laughed my ass off. But at the same time, I was horrified by their ignorance and negligence. Not just with plain words, but with important capitals too!!! What will be next? Nyu Yolk? (I'll try to upload a screenshot later).

And there are hundreds of examples. As I said before, I'm not an english speaker so you could thing that I couldn't care less. But their disrespectfulness toward other languages and cultures really pisses me off. Why do they try to write in a language they don't know? Why don't they learn a bit about it first?? I always thought that japanese were very respectful. Is this just an undeserved cliche? Where is their respect for english? You could say it isn't very important, but remember that anime is shown on TV. Don't you think they should try to improve a bit if it's going to be watched by the masses?
What do you think about it?

[Note: if you find any errors in my text, please tell me. I'm always striving for perfection and it's been a long time since my last english class :) ] Charlie Chan & early 70's TV movies with 'Chinese' people - What language are they speaking?

Indiana Jones & The Temple of Doom - Wow! I didn't know that all you have to say is Ching Chong Chun Jong and you can sing in Chinese or Manchurian.

ID4 - (Special scene on DVD revealing the fake TV broadcasts going in the background. Israeli, Russian and Spainish news all fluent & authentic) Hey look, this asian guy is speaking Japanese... Uh, he's repeating and repeating... wait a minute, its just plain gibberish. Huh, the characters on the screen are Chinese and that's the footage from Tiananmen(they are not Kanji since the characters that are not included in Kanji are definitely from Hanyu ). Is this a Chinese news broadcast or Japanese?

And you dare rile about Japanese getting wrong over a few words?

Shinobu_Maehara

2004-02-18, 08:41

It's fine. Natural English people should show some more respect to non English people and their English accent.

Why don't you start talking japanese and rehear yourself to find out how you sound.
Probably just as weird as a japanese person trying to talk English.

Same with me, I'm Dutch and understand English as a second language.

But if somebody ever bitches at me because my accent doesn't comply with their wishes, then I'll make them read a Dutch sentence and speak it out loud.

Want to bet they'll be very silent after that?

Vulkar

2004-02-18, 08:44

eh. It doesn't really bother me too too much. I figure that if I tried to speak Japanese I would butcher it just as bad as some of them due English. Plus, as long as it's still understandable I don't really have a problem.

Also, I can't really blame any Japanese for having difficulty since both English and Japanese are so different. I believe (correct me if I'm wrong native speakers) that Japanese is an OV (object-verb)language while English, and Spanish, are SVO (subject-verb-object) languages. So, comparing Spanish, which I find sentence structure-wise sill pretty similar to English, I find to be flawed logic while Japanese is not. I.E.

I played the guitar
Yo toco la guitarra.

Though, mind you Spanish does have its quirks and difficulties. However, sentence structure-wise it is pretty similar to English. Making Spanish or English much much easier to learn to someone who already speaks one of those two western families. So, I can't even begin to complain about the Japanese speaking English because if I even tried Japanese it'd be tough on me, I'd be moving the verb around and junk...pretty tough stuff in my opinion.

Superchop

2004-02-18, 09:05

I'm not an english speaker so you could thing that I couldn't care less.

hehe, like the pot calling the kettle black ;)
j/k but i did find these couple of mistakes :D

could = would
thing = think

but like the 3 people above me said it's not that big of a deal..English isn't their primary language so they're not gonna be fluent in either writing or speaking. And as for the whole "Palis" thing it might actually be how they spell and/or pronounce it...take Lisbon (Capital of Portugal) for example in the US it's just like that..Lisbon...but in Portugal we pronounce and spell it Lisboa...they're both right it's all a matter of where you come from.

Lord Raiden

2004-02-18, 09:21

hehe. This is actally kinda funny. When I start talking to someone in German I get kinda the same responce of "Will you stop butchering your german already!!" :) I think it's partially because unless you're around a given language daily, you tend to have issues speaking it. Heck, everytime I drop in for a visit to Germany for a number of months I am told I sound like a country farmboy reject. But after being around the language constantly for that first couple months I am able to correct my pronunications and speak it right.

One thing you have to remember with anime voice actors. How many of them have actually been to an english speaking country where they speak clear and concise english and not some voodoo hack of it? I'd say a good majority actually. So my understanding would be that most Japanese you hear are going on what little they know of the language. I've encountered that locally here with exchange students. Basically if you're not immersed into the language on an almost daily basis, you easily forget stuff or mispronounce it.

Z'd Jung

2004-02-18, 09:55

Why don't you start talking japanese and rehear yourself to find out how you sound. Probably just as weird as a japanese person trying to talk English.

I agree, I mean you have to understand that the Japanese language is in a way very limited, they don't exactly have a wide range of pronouncation, where one character when said, could have several meanings to it, depending on the context, and the fact that a slight mispronounciation could change completely what you say.

Other than that, Japanese, like Chinese (which what I am), use characters, not 'words', its kinda hard to describe fully but basically, each character which is one word can have usually one, at most two syllables, so virtually each syllable represents one word, and the concept that more than two syllables is required to represent one word, is baffling, and they tend to pronounce each syllable separately.

In fact, I have to argue that english is an annoying language, in most cultures, one 'letter' has one pronounciation, but in English, apple is pronouced "a-pel", I is pronouced "ai", slight is pronounced "slait", heck something like "slight" would stump any Japanese, three extremely distinct letters "g", "h" and "t", Japanese just can't do it, to them it is incomprehensible that such constanants exist without vowels between them. In other words don't try to judge what anything is like until you actually know what you're talking about.

TangentZ

2004-02-18, 10:00

I think you are confusing two things here.

1. It's definitely incorrect to write something like "Palis". There is little excuse for this kind of sloppiness.

2. Pronounciation is a very different matter. Japanese people use "katakana spelling" to pronounce English and other foreign languages.

So, here is my take on things. I can overlook "katakana pronounciation", but written stuff should definitely be spell-checked.

GarBhaD

2004-02-18, 10:12

hehe, like the pot calling the kettle black ;)
j/k but i did find these couple of mistakes :D

could = would
thing = think

but like the 3 people above me said it's not that big of a deal..English isn't their primary language so they're not gonna be fluent in either writing or speaking. And as for the whole "Palis" thing it might actually be how they spell and/or pronounce it...take Lisbon (Capital of Portugal) for example in the US it's just like that..Lisbon...but in Portugal we pronounce and spell it Lisboa...they're both right it's all a matter of where you come from.

I always make the same error. How embarrassing :( And in Spain we say Lisboa too. Thanks a lot!

But I'm afraid that most of you have lost my point. I'm not ranting about bad english speaking and spelling, the main point here is about writing. I have a horrible english accent (and that's why I never speak it :D ). And I commit writing errors too (as Superchop stated above). But making this kind of mistakes is just too much. They're openly proclaiming that they don't know english and don't care about it. And on top, with "important" words that could easily be checked out in lots of places. The fact that they're writing'em bad it's even insulting.

About "Chrno" Crusade, is it too hard to check a dictionary? It's the title! The name that references and represents your work! And even the main character! Doesn't it deserve a bit of attention??? And the "Make a painting of" it's even worse. That wasn't necessary. It's not a must to write that in english. If the author wasn't sure about it, why did he write it in a foreign language? It's like he wanted to boast of english knowledge and then failed miserably (because he ignores both grammar and meaning).

And Full Moon is... well... I don't know how to say it. I've made the screenshot (http://server6.uploadit.org/files/GarBhaD-snapshot20040218134323.jpg). It's from episode 43. This image fits very well the definition of "eyesore", because it really hurts my eyes. This is not just about english, all of this words are common knowledge!!! And even if you don't know'em (shame on you) it's very easy to check, just by looking an atlas!
Atalanta, Los Angels, Palis... Frolida!!!! Aaargh my brain can't stand it!!! It's like if they did it on purpose.
These are not the "official" japanese translations of capitals. In japanese, most of them are just direct translations from english. For example, メキシコ (mekishiko) is the katakana for Mexico. Ok, then write it in katakana ( メキシコ ) or in correct romaji (Mexico), but don't do this kind of abomination!
Even though the engrish accent gave me the creeps, I could stand it. But this is just (as they say lots of times in anime) unforgivable. Needless (mis)use of language and errors in basic vocabulary. They should try to improve a bit more specially if it's going to be read by lots of people, don't you think? Doing things correctly it's not that hard.

Briareos

2004-02-18, 10:31

It's all a matter of perspective. If you were Japanese and lived in Japan, you'd probably realize that it's not an intentional slight.

The examples you cite are from Japanese entertainment, aimed exclusively at the Japanese people. How many Japanese are going to know (or care) is Paris is spelled incorrectly, when the words "Paris" and "Palis" translate perfectly (and identically) back into Japanese.

I think you're getting miffed over nothing. It's easy for you to check for proper spellings, but how easy is it really for them?

And what's this "final insult" garbage? I repeat, it's all a matter of perspective.

MwyC

2004-02-18, 10:38

tsurumaru

2004-02-18, 11:23

There are some very interesting points here that are all mixed in together.

1. The names of languages are "proper nouns" and therefore English and Spanish (and also Japanese) should all be written starting with a capital letter. But I'm just being pedantic here. :p

2. Most European languages (with the exception of Celtic, Greek, Arabic and Basque [off the top of my head]) are based on the Latin language and are therefore very similar in nature. Where as Japanese is linked only to a few other Asian languages (For example Korean in terms of grammar, and Chinese in terms of the use of pictographic symbols for writing - the Japanese "On" pronunciation of these having been derived from the Chinese pronunciation). There is no wonder that Europeans we find it easier to learn a language with a very similar make up than in something so different. Interestingly reading Japanese or Chinese characters where the meaning can be inferred from the design utilises a completely different part of the brain to reading the symbols of phonetically based alphabets.

3. Pronunciation: Whilst I didn't find Japanese as difficult as say Cantonese (which I found fascinating in terms of the way that tonal changes alter the meaning of a word). There are still some words I found very difficult to pronounce*. Therefore it’s fairly obvious that Japanese people may struggle on the Pronunciation of sounds that do not have equivalents in their own language.

*For example the differences between the following:

禁煙きんえん kin'en - no smoking
記念きねん kinen - commemoration
近年きんねん kinnen - in recent years

3. Education: In my opinion this is at the heart of the matter, I'd like to hear from native Japanese people about this but from my experience in Japan (and from what I was told) the majority of English taught is geared towards being able to comprehend passages of text, and that little conversational practice is given. One of the factors for this being the case is that there are not enough native speakers in educational placements further contributing to a vicious circle.

4. Engrish. It’s not just the spelling of English words (which is forgivable if you see the pronunciation examples below) but also the tone which can come across as very odd, see the following for an example:

http://www.engrish.com/detail.php?imagename=towel.jpg&category=Household Items&date=2003-08-14

If you find this entertaining then check out the main site, I always remember spotting a shop called "Violence Jack Off!!!" when in Japan and finding this deeply amusing. (Sadly I hear it has now closed).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just to show you I also agree that English spelling and pronunciation can be ludicrous (and that I respect all non-native speakers’ efforts to try to learn it), try the following:

The bandage was wound around the wound.
The farm was used to produce produce.
The dump was so full that it had to refuse more refuse.
We must polish the Polish furniture.
He could lead if he would get the lead out.
The soldier decided to desert his dessert in the desert.
Since there is no time like the present, he thought it was time to present the present.
I did not object to the object.
There was a row among the oarsmen about how to row.
They were too close to the door to close it.
Upon seeing the tear in the painting I shed a tear.
How can I intimate this to my most intimate friend?

If you enjoyed this I urge you to visit:

http://home.planet.nl/~blade068/languagefun/pronunciation.htm

babbito2k

2004-02-18, 11:45

Did you ever noticed how bad is english written and spoken in anime?...
Yes I have noticed "how poorly English is written and spoken in anime." Because I have taken college courses in Japanese I understand the difficulty in expressing the same idea in both languages, and the phonetic limitations of Japanese. I also realize that English words and phrases when mixed in with Japanese are a sort of garnish; it's more about the impact of using English than the literal meaning of the English words.

I fail to see how any of this is tantamount to a cultural insult or whatever. As a native English speaker I appreciate the efforts made by others to adapt to its formlessness and contradictions. As someone who is learning a "foreign" language I prefer to show the generosity towards others that I have been shown.

u&t

2004-02-18, 11:51

2. Most European languages (with the exception of Celtic, Greek, Arabic and Basque [off the top of my head]) are based on the Latin language and are therefore very similar in nature.

The top of your head is all messed up. Basque isn't even in the european language tree (same for finnish, estonian, saami and hungarian). The only ones on the latin branch are italian, spanish (and i guess portugeese), french and romanian. English is a germanic language.

The cool thing about the Basque people is that they're not on any levels related to anyone else in europe. On a genetic level they are not similar to anyone in europe. Resarchers makes jokes about the basque beeing some weird cross-breed between Homo.Sapiens and the Neanderthal...

Anyway I don't mind engrish at all. It's the americans that can't speak english that tick me off ;)

Yebyosh

2004-02-18, 12:06

nawww...i think hong kong manages to butcher english quite well

these are from an english subtitled bootleg of LOTR - two towers

http://public.planetmirror.com/pub/engrish/ttt_captions/80-100/two-towers-06.jpg
http://public.planetmirror.com/pub/engrish/ttt_captions/00-20/two-towers-13.jpg http://public.planetmirror.com/pub/engrish/ttt_captions/80-100/two-towers-02.jpg

all from this site, where he archived it

http://public.planetmirror.com/pub/engrish/ttt_captions/00-20.htm
*Heh* I really like those chinese bootleggers doing those translations. It is such a comedy of errors that you wonder why would anyone actually want to buy subbed bootlegs from them? And if people tell you the show sucked because they got the wrong impression from the terrible translation, you can really laugh down at them.

A friend showed me a bootlegged "The Last Samurai" and he was flipping through the subtitles, especially for the Japanese sections (the capture was a pan scanned version that cut off the original movie subs *rofl*). The engrish was atrocious and the Chinese subs were totally out of sync (even up to 5 minutes off). Of course he was grumbling and I was laughing :D

Back to topic, the Japanese interprete English pronunciations through Katakana as stated earlier. You must note that there is no 'r' or 'l' in Japanese. Even in Chinese, 'r' & 'l' are pronounced very differently. You cannot easily teach a native Chinese who does not know English to pronounce 'rabbit'.

So when the Japanese translate the English words they have heard down on paper, they just used the romaji of the katakana. Hence Brandon/Blandon, Lavi/Ravi, Brooklyn/Brooklym, Paris/Palis, etc.

And if you say use a dictionary, how many of your compatriots/companies have a Chinese or Japanese dictionary at your site? Which non-Portugeuse is going to really use Lisboa. I wonder who is going to point out Köln to a non-German writing down Cologne.

Really, everyone should have a look at how the Chinese language butcher the hanyu-ed English names :heh:.

mirichan

2004-02-18, 12:11

But if somebody ever bitches at me because my accent doesn't comply with their wishes, then I'll make them read a Dutch sentence and speak it out loud.

Want to bet they'll be very silent after that?
Bwahahaha...

French-Canadian but fluently bilingual (but with an accent). An ex-colleague (who was British, not English-Canadian) used to bug me about said accent -- until I asked her to say words like, oh, "écureuil"... she STFU afterwards ;)

tsurumaru

2004-02-18, 13:01

The top of your head is all messed up. Basque isn't even in the european language tree (same for finnish, estonian, saami and hungarian). The only ones on the latin branch are italian, spanish (and i guess portugeese), french and romanian. English is a germanic language.

The cool thing about the Basque people is that they're not on any levels related to anyone else in europe. On a genetic level they are not similar to anyone in europe. Resarchers makes jokes about the basque beeing some weird cross-breed between Homo.Sapiens and the Neanderthal...

Anyway I don't mind engrish at all. It's the americans that can't speak english that tick me off ;)

2. Most European languages (with the exception of Celtic, Greek, Arabic and Basque [off the top of my head]) are based on the Latin language and are therefore very similar in nature.

Heh the key word here was "exception". I would define "European languages" as languages originating from within the borders of Europe (which is in itself a fairly loose boundary). Since the Basque region lies within Europe I would classify Basque as a European Language. :p Please note that I said that it was not related to Lati. As you stated, it is unique and has a rather mysterious origin.

Yes I did forget Germanic based languages though :heh:

gravitation

2004-02-18, 13:37

I havent read the rest of this thread because im too lazy but i just wanted to say i find it funny in animes when they speak english, i dont mean that in a mean way of course:)

u&t

2004-02-18, 14:34

:topicoff:

To tsurumaru.

If you define european languages as languages originating within european borders you're on thin ice. The indo-european langauge tree has its geographical roots in the northern india/persia region. Driving that thesis to the point you could come to the conclusion that Basque is the only european language since its the only one originating from the region. The rest were just brought by barbarian invaders.

Here (http://www.danshort.com/ie/ietreecentum1.gif) is a nice picture of the western main branch of europena languages for you.

Back to topic:

Someone mentioned the problems asians had with "R"-sounds. R-type sounds are among the hardest ones to learn. Small children often have problems with them because their brains are simply not developed enough to learn how to pronounce the sounds correctly. I can still remember when I was 4 or 5 and I finally managed to get the R's right. I was sitting in my moms car going rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.....

Anyway. Unless you learn how to use these sounds when you're young you're going to have a hard time learning then later. The brain is simply not equipped to do it. Given a large enough number of test subjects you could probably destroy a westeners concept of what r-sounds are by just removing a specific area of the brain :)

Kurara

2004-02-18, 14:42

I'm not annoyed with this at all.. I even think it's funny. ^^;;

My friend who studied a lot about Japan and has a lot of friends in Japan says that it's because English classes are very poor .. I'm not sure how true that is, though.

I think it has a lot to do with phonetic differences.. I should know that since I have a lot of problems with speaking English. Some languages just have different phonetic.. It's harder for some people who speak certain languages to pronounce English.. Japanese is one of those languages, I guess... I know there's some other languages like that too. And also.. French. x_x; I speak French at home and with my friends and it's my native language... Even though a lot of people around me spoke English when I was in elementary school, I still can't get used to pronouncing it. I guess it's the same thing for Japanese people... I don't know.

GarBhaD

2004-02-18, 14:45

Whoa! I never thought that this post could have so much answers!

nawww...i think hong kong manages to butcher english quite well
these are from an english subtitled bootleg of LOTR - two towers

4. Engrish. It’s not just the spelling of English words (which is forgivable if you see the pronunciation examples below) but also the tone which can come across as very odd, see the following for an example:

http://www.engrish.com/detail.php?i...egory=Household Items&date=2003-08-14

Wahahahhaa!!! That sure was funny! It's been a long time since I laughed that much. :heh:

1. The names of languages are "proper nouns" and therefore English and Spanish (and also Japanese) should all be written starting with a capital letter. But I'm just being pedantic here.

You may be pedantic, but you have a point. I'll try to remember that :)

And to the rest of you, I think you missed my point again. I'm not asking that all japanese have to speak and write correctly or something imposible like that. I just ask for a bit more of care when writing things. And if you don't want to take risks, then don't write in a foreign language!!

Languages have a set of rules, known as grammar (if you didn't know :heh:) and a set of words or vocabulary. If you follow those rules, then you're writing right. If not, then it's wrong. There's no perspective or something like that here. I'm asking to write correctly, that's all. Specially if they're going to be aired on TV or read by lots of people, because you should make a good example. I'm not trying to say that anime has to be educative, that would be stupid. But at the same time that we can use anime to learn Japanese, japanese people can use anime and manga to remember or learn new english words. Then, at least, write'em correctly and thus help to finish the vicious circle that tsurumaru stated before.

I can overlook "katakana pronounciation", but written stuff should definitely be spell-checked.

You see? This guy resumed my idea in just one sentence. :bow:
There are shows that really care about this. An example that comes to my mind is Full Metal Alchemist: various english texts appear through the series and... they're written correctly!!! Unbelievable!! This proves that the studio really cares about details and because of that they've won my respect, since I know very well how hard it is to learn a language.

I wrote "The Final Insult" keeping in mind the two examples I showed. I think they're really offensive because they're very extreme and could be easily avoided. I can't believe that nobody in the production team of those animes/mangas didn't notice this.

And the rest of you that guessed that I don't know what I'm talking about, well you guessed too much. I can't say I know Japanese (yet), but I'm learning it. And if you didn't notice it from my second post, I know already all the pronunciation and syllabary thing, so don't bother to explain it again. Anyway, that's no excuse to not pick a dictionary or an atlas and do things the right way.

Because in the end, as I said before, doing things correctly it's not that hard. If you can choose, why doing it wrong?

kj1980

2004-02-18, 14:45

3. Education: In my opinion this is at the heart of the matter, I'd like to hear from native Japanese people about this but from my experience in Japan (and from what I was told) the majority of English taught is geared towards being able to comprehend passages of text, and that little conversational practice is given. One of the factors for this being the case is that there are not enough native speakers in educational placements further contributing to a vicious circle.

Sure, no problem.

We learn English for six years - three years in middle school, three years in high school.

However, we do not focus on conversational English. We learn grammar, sentence structure, and words. Towards the end, we are "choked down" with words after words for memorization.

What happens when you teach something like that? You are "forced to eat" knowledge, and "barf out" everything when the tests and high school/university entrance exams comes along. After you "barf out" everything, you don't remember them.

Unless you happen to really love the English language and willing to do whatever it takes to learn English (for instance, going to an after-school eki-mae English language school taught by real English speakers until 11PM), most people here in Japan could care less if they speak English or not. We don't use English in everyday lives. However due to the nature of our country being the loser of WWII, and Ministry of Education's glorified idea of "let's teach our children English to diversify our nation into the international arena," English is a required curriculum from middle school and on.

Even the instructor who teaches English in our schools cannot speak English correctly. I even recall an incident back when I was in the second year of high school for correcting my English language instructor. The children who are taught to learn English by these English language instructors, become instructors themselves. Sure there might be some people who actually went abroad or actual "gaijin" instructors teaching English at some schools, but they are very limited. So, if you want to help out - come to Japan and teach English here. There is a nice solution for you guys that can speak English called the JET Program, funded by our Ministry of Education. Come over here, be our guest and teach English to our kids.

Let's face it - Japan is still a very homogenous society. There are people who will learn to grasp the English language in a snap, and those who don't. People who do go on to become elite businessmen who work for a large multinational corporations. People who don't - become animators (sarcasm intended). English is second to none in importance in creating anime. Especially in the days where there are 60+ anime shows airing per week with limited time schedule - the shows are becoming "quantity over quality." If you don't like it - I suggest you go to Japan and become an animator yourself.

kj1980

2004-02-18, 14:49

There are shows that really care about this. An example that comes to my mind is Full Metal Alchemist: various english texts appear through the series and... they're written correctly!!! Unbelievable!! This proves that the studio really cares about details and because of that they've won my respect, since I know very well how hard it is to learn a language.

Funded by Square/Enix.

MrBrown

2004-02-18, 14:54

Slade xTekno

2004-02-18, 17:45

Although English in anime sort of annoys me, I think [as a Korean myself] it is quite hilarious [MirROR Man. MirROR Man. Hehe. Or maybe "I gonna make you an offer you can't refuse..."]
Something I heard about Chrno Crusade was the fear that Square would sue if Chrono was used. Although the patenting of what is a latin/greek [forgot which] root is sort of outrageous in the US, I've heard that Square has quite a bit of influence in Japan. I really don't think this is plausible or possible, though.
However, there are a lot of mistakes in Chrno Crusade. Brooklyn is spelled wrong [as Brooklym] twice. The Chrno Crusade intro [v1] spelled Joshua wrong [as Jshua].
Someone posted that the reason for Japanese Engrish is the fact that the Japanese don't have an alphabet, but symbols. I very much agree.

I'm sorry if the following hurts anyone. Most that take the effort to participate in an anime forum do not fit in the target group, and will understand what I am talking about:
Most of the people talking about how bad Japanese Engrish is are normally Caucasian Americans that do not speak a second language [this is a trend I have seen in my area] *edit* and any foreigner who has learned to speak EngLish and are too good for the rest */edit*. However, I find that most other races in America and anyone from outside the US find this quite understandable [maybe because they know the hardships of speaking a second language incorrectly].
Also, I was told by several language teachers that English is the hardest language to learn, not by its rules, but by its vast vocabulary that just doesn't stop growing.

Sorry. People make mistakes. Even though some are stupid, we should forgive, for no one is perfect [except Jesus, but that's another topic]. In my humble opinion, we should all try to get along and not tear someone apart for making a mistake. Oh, and for Japanese Engrish, imitation is the greatest form of flattery.

Iridi

2004-02-20, 03:05

nawww...i think hong kong manages to butcher english quite well

these are from an english subtitled bootleg of LOTR - two towers
[edit]
http://public.planetmirror.com/pub/engrish/ttt_captions/00-20.htm

Quite amusing :)

Back to the topic:
I do agree with the fact that it takes we English natives out of the anime context to see such mispellings in series, but I think everyone has already said what you know yourself, it is a mistake, forgive and forget and just enjoy the show.

Worse from FMwS were the lines, "Repeat and Repeat" anyway...
Then Ultra Maniac had "Practice"...

It's just sad that after spending so much $$, some series' creators/producers/directors/whoever is ultimately in charge of the English insertions don't spend the minimal extra effort to ensure that their work is less flawed.

And I think this is your ultimate rant, and relatively valid.

I'm wondering if Japanese who are more fluent in English also catch these mistakes and are disturbed by them... then again, they're probably not watching anime targetted towards 14-year old girls...

snoopy

2004-02-20, 04:27

Has the question "Why is a person who is not a native speaker himself even the slightest bit insulted at Engrish, when native speakers couldn't care less and actually find it entertaining?" been answered in this thread yet? I saw it asked once or twice, but he just seems to be ignoring it...

GarBhaD

2004-02-20, 11:59

then again, they're probably not watching anime targetted towards 14-year old girls...

Yeah, shame on me for watching it :( But I have 2 bad habits with anime. First, when I hear a few people saying that a series is good, I feel a lot like watching it, thinking that I could be losing a sleeping-hit. Second, I always watch complete series.
Yes, I watched all Full Moon. But don't worry I won't do it again :D

However, we do not focus on conversational English. We learn grammar, sentence structure, and words. Towards the end, we are "choked down" with words after words for memorization.

What happens when you teach something like that? You are "forced to eat" knowledge, and "barf out" everything when the tests and high school/university entrance exams comes along. After you "barf out" everything, you don't remember them.

Well, the learning system used here in Spain is pretty much the same. In fact, I learned most of my English by myself. If I relied just on school, I wouldn't be able to read and post here. Most of my friends can't, and that's why they don't risk using English, because they don't know it.
I learned English through training. Looots of practice. Any chance was good to read in English: manuals, movies, groceries' ingredients list... whatever. Always with my dictionary at hand. Videogames helped me extremely (and there's people who say that videogames are bad :p ) specially Diablo, StarCraft and Heroes of Might & Magic 2. Finally, computers and internet were my personal "english college" :) (I must be one of the few persons in this country that uses Windows in English).

A few years later, I played one of my old Mega Drive (Genesis) games... and I understood everything! Without a dictionary! And I read it very fast! Then I tried another game, another, another.... Everything was as clear as the sky. In that instant I realized I knew English. That brought tears to my eyes. I finally did it, my efforts finally payed off. I'm not an English doctor nor I won't be, and that wasn't my goal anyway. I was just ok with reading it fluently. I read lots of web pages, fansubs, programs, etc in English everyday without problems. I still have a way with hearing, writing and... speking :eek: and that's why I'm still at it, always stribing to improve.

Those who don't care about a language (well it's not just about languages, it's everything!) and use it incorrectly deliberately are like stomping all those who really cared and tried hard for it. Most of you maybe don't care because you always took it for granted.

Going back to the main topic, the problem here is not to be perfect or not make any errors or about speaking English correctly nor an attack against engrish. It's just that very big errors (like those two I showed before) should be checked and corrected before throwing'em to the masses. A bit more of care, that's all. And if you don't want to take risks, don't do it. If I was the author of "Chrno" Crusade, I would feel very embarrassed ("make a painting of..." c'mon!).

I remember a scene from Azumanga Daioh where Kagura ran into an english tourist. That was funny, and the same time, pretty realistic. Here, something similar would happen. In Spain, the "english" accent is very... "curious" too :). I don't have anything against that.

"Why is a person who is not a native speaker himself even the slightest bit insulted at Engrish, when native speakers couldn't care less and actually find it entertaining?"

I said it before and I'll say it again: because I know how hard is to learn it. And it's not about engrish in general, god damn it!!! :mad:

I don't know if you people don't read my posts or my writing skills are worse than I thought :( I think I've wasted too much time with this thread and I don't know how to explain the same thing again. If you're going to post here, please read the previous posts.

Yebyosh

2004-02-20, 13:20

How can you comdemn the anime crew for deliberately 'stomping' those that care? They don't even know if its Brandon or Blandon, Paris or Palis, especially if their newspapers only print ブランドン and パリス. How can their mistakes be deliberate then?

It seems you are mighty elitist over your "efforts" to study English. While one can praise you for your efforts to improve yourself, you do not get one bit of right to condemn people in a monolingual country for not being able to strive to perfect your chosen 'elite' language. If you know how hard it is to learn, then why don't you allow them their mistakes?

Why not condemn those who mangled Chinese, Malay, Thai, Portugeuse, Norweigian, Grecian or Espanol?

And do not ever, ever forget this last point. All these anime are made in Japan, for Japanese, not for you, me and others living outside of Japan. If it is exported, it is for commercial profit reasons. Their main target base remains their fellow Japanese. They do not have a responsibility to you or us gaijin to faithfully replicate every detail and nuance of language/culture of what we expect and experience. They are creating stories to entertain their culture's people and hoping to make money from it.

kj1980

2004-02-20, 20:21

http://www.ethnologue.com/family_index.asp :p

EDIT: Anyways, if foreign languages are used in anime, I'd prefer that the correct spelling is checked... likewise, if the VAs are asked to talk in a foreign language, then they should receive some training in correct pronounciation. I won't die if a show I like mis- spells/pronounces stuff, but it'll lower the quality of the show in my eyes, if ever so slightly.

Also, do be aware of the difference between an accent and mispronounciation. :heh:

You'll be surprised that the seiyuus do actually get training when they are required to do a foreign language in anime. However, it is common for one seiyuu to be doing two or more shows on the same season. They don't have the time to receive a face-to-face personal training - what they receive is very direct and to the point. And since it is mainly geared for a Japanese viewer, the sound director could care less if it was pronounce properly - he has a time schedule to keep as well.

Funny people should mention why they don't correct Engrish. I wonder how many people will then complain "why is this anime is taking too long to show" when they actually decide to go into foreign language usage in detail.

Y además, aprender una lengua que utilice una diversos estructura y alfabeto es muy difícil. Por ejemplo, ingles, español, frances, y italiano son muy similares. Por otra parte, el japonés es diferente. Sea tan chino y coreano. No utilizamos el sistema del alfabeto. Por lo tanto, no tenemos ninguna comprensión de distinguir "r" de "l" ¿Pero existe en español , no estoy correcto?

So you understand how hard it was. So do doctors who went through med school. You don't see them going piss ranting off their patients for not understanding medical terminology.

It's all a matter of view. I know how hard it was to learn English - from a person with a different sentence structure and no alphabet from his own country. Do I care about the usage of "Engrish?" Nah. That's because I know it was hard - and I understand while hardship paid out for me - and not all people have what the same prioritized hardships as I do. I wanted to learn English - I did my hardship, and it paid out. Some people would rather focus on becoming a mathematician, or becoming a CG artist. They are not my priority - but to them, those are. And as much as I have no sense in forcing my hardships onto them, neither do they.

u&t

2004-02-20, 21:28

So do doctors who went through med school. You don't see them going piss ranting off their patients for not understanding medical terminology.

la la la. Going offtopic again. Doctors with a tendency to bitch at their patients normally don't have patients. They work with dead people and/or rabbits instead. Also for some reason doctors generally seems to bee people with unatural reservoirs of empathy. They seem to have this ability to care for complete strangers. The average poster in any forum doesn't give a shit...

This thread is feeling a bit dry now btw. Hopefully I can kill it with with Goodwins law just by showing this picture:
http://koti.mbnet.fi/cyrus/images/spellingnazi.gif

FinFangFoom

2004-02-20, 21:47

I guess I understand GarBhaD's point to an extent. Personally I would never feel any disrespect from a foriegn country not speaking or writing proper english. But I do think that if it's something that targets younger viewers, like some anime, they do have an obligation to use the language properly if, like in Japan, it's required to learn English. I would guess any young student learning english could assume when they see the language used on TV, that it is proper English. In turn it could give them trouble in school when they confuse the English on TV and the English they learn in school. But beyond that I don't think it matters.

:mad: OK, THIS IS WHAT I REALLY WANT TO KNOW!!!!! Why is it that when the subject of American voice actors using Japanese words comes up everyone jumps down their throat for not pronouncing the names or a few Japanese words properly, claiming it as a big reason why dubs suck, but at the same time, rush to defend Japanese speakers when they butcher the English language? Personally I think it sounds retarded when you mix two languages and shift your accent back and forth. Like when people order a "Nacho Bel Grande" from Toco Bell and feel the need to roll their R's. :mad:

zalas

2004-02-20, 23:04

This thread is feeling a bit dry now btw. Hopefully I can kill it with with Goodwins law just by showing this picture:
<spelling nazi pic>
My eyes must be going. I first thought those oxford dictinoaries were NTSC composite noise.

Why is it that when the subject of American voice actors using Japanese words comes up everyone jumps down their throat for not pronouncing the names or a few Japanese words properly, claiming it as a big reason why dubs suck, but at the same time, rush to defend Japanese speakers when they butcher the English language? Personally I think it sounds retarded when you mix two languages and shift your accent back and forth. Like when people order a "Nacho Bel Grande" from Toco Bell and feel the need to roll their R's

I actually don't think that's the main reason I don't like dubs. I don't like a lot of dubs because the voice actors/actresses don't know how to voice act. They either overact or underact.

TangentZ

2004-02-20, 23:41

Why is it that when the subject of American voice actors using Japanese words comes up everyone jumps down their throat for not pronouncing the names or a few Japanese words properly, claiming it as a big reason why dubs suck, but at the same time, rush to defend Japanese speakers when they butcher the English language?
LOL. I think I know what you mean. But just listen to "Knights of the Zodiac". My ears bleed every time I hear someone calling "She-wee-you" (Shi-Ryuu).

I'd rather they change the name to something completely pronounciable in English than to try to use the original Japanese name. :p So Shi-Ryuu would become "Purple Dragon". :heh:

But that's only the superficial reason to dislike English dubs. The real reason is that the voice actors can't seem to put themselves "in character" when doing their voices. It's hard to describe. You have to feel it to understand it.

babbito2k

2004-02-20, 23:45

...Personally I think it sounds retarded when you mix two languages and shift your accent back and forth. Like when people order a "Nacho Bel Grande" from Toco Bell and feel the need to roll their R's...
The other extreme is to Anglicize everything the way some British people do; they stomp all over foreign words, e.g. pronouncing samurai as "Sam-your-eye." I dislike that also.

TangentZ

2004-02-21, 11:06

You know, I just realized something: why do people feel so strongly about "Engrish".

It's because it sounds like "anguish". :joke:

GarBhaD

2004-02-21, 21:12

Funny people should mention why they don't correct Engrish. I wonder how many people will then complain "why is this anime is taking too long to show" when they actually decide to go into foreign language usage in detail.

Very true, indeed.

Y además, aprender una lengua que utilice una diversos estructura y alfabeto es muy difícil. Por ejemplo, ingles, español, frances, y italiano son muy similares. Por otra parte, el japonés es diferente. Sea tan chino y coreano. No utilizamos el sistema del alfabeto. Por lo tanto, no tenemos ninguna comprensión de distinguir "r" de "l" ¿Pero existe en español , no estoy correcto?

Hmm. I'm impressed. You're learning spanish, too? There are a bunch of grammatic errors but the text is still intelligible, except for "Sea tan chino y coreano". I think you tried to say something like "the same with Chinese and Korean" (Lo mismo con Chino y Koreano). I guess you didn't use babelfish because there are a couple of orthographic errors.
Anyway, I recognize your efforts (since it's pretty hard to learn, much more than English) and encourage you.
About the "l"/"r" thing, I know it's a problem, but think about this example. What if I were to travel to England and I still drove by the right side of the road? Then, a policeman will surely stop me by causing havoc on the highway, and I'd say: "Sorry, I'm spanish so it's impossible for me to learn to drive by the left". I'm sure the policeman will understand it :D

There's a way to know the difference between "l" and "r", but you need the help of someone who knows that difference, of course. If not, it's truly impossible. In Spanish, there are "l" and "r". And there are "j" and "z", too. But they sound radically different than in English or Japanse, and I still learnt'em.
Anyway, the "l"/"r" difference comes because of speaking. When writing, you just have to copy what the dictionary says, so there's no problem :) . Then again, let me remember to everyone that I wasn't complaining about this in general, but in very extreme situations. Engrish sure sounds weird, but I can endure it. What pains the eyes is the orthographic havoc.

Why is it that when the subject of American voice actors using Japanese words comes up everyone jumps down their throat for not pronouncing the names or a few Japanese words properly, claiming it as a big reason why dubs suck, but at the same time, rush to defend Japanese speakers when they butcher the English language? Personally I think it sounds retarded when you mix two languages and shift your accent back and forth.

VERY good point. I'm totally agree with you. (And the comment on your sig is damn funny :heh: )
I won't put more quotes because then my posts are too long, but I'll say I'm agree with babbito2k and TangentZ.
Well, it seems that there isn't much more to say about these topic and it will soon sink in the oblivion.
Even though most of the posts were to flame me, I value all of you that posted interesting things and different points of view that made it a worthwhile reading. :bow: (I'm aware it's not common to thank people for posting, but being grateful is good, don't you think?) :D

Kempis Curious

2004-02-21, 23:24

I think this is a fun post, I'd like to know why the written Engrish doesn't get looked at by someone fluent in English... it seems like the anime producers are cutting corners.

It's a valid gripe, though not a big one. My favorite recent ones were in Detective Academy Q... when the "Q" was revealed to mean "Quality" a huge screen filling "Quarity" graphic drove home the point that Quality Control was lacking behind the cameras. :) In FMA ep 19 one of the research papers Al was holding clearly showed a French Toast recipe. :D

-k

Muir Woods

2004-02-22, 01:13

I've read through this whole post, and some people already said everything that I wanted to say. But anyways, I think I have it lucky as I can speak/read/write English and speak Mandarin fluently. I can read Chinese fairly well, but my Chinese writing is faltering. Mon francais...je ne veux pas de le parler...he heh. My first language is Mandarin 國語(A spoken form of Chinese), BUT my primary and strongest language that I use is English by FAR. But that's because I was raised in North America. But at home my parents speak Mandarin, and watches Chinese TV and news. So inadvertently I learned Mardarin and Chinese. It also helps that my Mom's a Mandarin Teacher. Heh heh.

Oh, about the "L" pronunciation in Chinese. In Mandarin (I don't know anything about Cantonese or other forms of spoken Chinese), there is actually a Chinese alphabet ㄌ that, by itself, is pronounced "le". For example, "to pull" in Chinese 拉 in alphabet form is ㄌㄚ, and spoken in Mandarin, is simply "la". But the alphabet ㄌ can be combined with other alphabet to form sounds like "lee" "li" etc... Also in Mandarin alphabet, you can form 5 different levels of sound from the same alphabets. For example the alphabets ㄌㄚcan have 5 levels of pronounciation, indicated by small symbols between the alphabets, eg ㄌˇㄚ. It's hard to explain, but needless to say, from my experience, Mandarin can somewhat emulate "Ls". At least, that's how my mom learns English. But then again, her English pronouciation is atrocious, barely comprehensible at best.

In animes, I noticed something, some verbal expressions in Japanese sounds exactly like Mandarin. For example, when they say "wait" or "slow down a bit" in Japanese, it sounds almost exactly like "wait" or "wait up" 慢點 in Mandarin. Nearly the same pronouciation. At first I was like "whoa, they stuck in Mandarin in animes", but then I thought, something else is going on, maybe related to how Japan uses Kanji (which is the only stuff I can read in Japanese heh heh). Maybe Kj1980 can explain it to me.

Umbrae

2004-02-22, 01:20

Personaly I do not have to much of a problem with Engrish text. given the huge varrity between the way the two languages are written I can easly see how that happens.

Although thier are a few anime where you hear english spoken. If you noticed often times it is so far off that the sub titlers will choose to sub title the english as well :)

Of course I fully understand why this happens as well. Yet it is still kind of odd to hear your own language spoken, have to stop and listin to it again 2-3 times to understand what they were trying to say. So far most english I have heard spoken in anime was much worse than what was spoken by drunk japanese I started converstations with :)

I love languages, and study them alot in my spare time. I can speak a little japanese, a good ammount of spanish (grew up about 30 min from mexico this is quite needed where I live =p), a bit of german, and very little french.

kj1980, not bad spanish. although I am more concerned with spoken language than written. I can hardly spell in spanish to save my life, and cannot write in any other language I speak. Beeing dislexic and still not able to write my main language correctly (and was 12 before I could read it) I supose that might be part of why I choose not to write in another =p

I did hear about the JET program and considered joining it. But when thinking about it serieously I did not think I have the correct qualifications to teach people english. . . although given what I have heard so far, I might have been looking at that from the wrong point of view. basing my decision while not considering that this country has little access to people who speak english naturaly, let alone native speakers who have studied the language for 18 years.

wao

2004-02-22, 04:11

Note: Long, boring, assumptious post ahead.

Muir Woods said:

In animes, I noticed something, some verbal expressions in Japanese sounds exactly like Mandarin. For example, when they say "wait" or "slow down a bit" in Japanese, it sounds almost exactly like "wait" or "wait up" 慢點 in Mandarin. Nearly the same pronouciation. At first I was like "whoa, they stuck in Mandarin in animes", but then I thought, something else is going on, maybe related to how Japan uses Kanji (which is the only stuff I can read in Japanese heh heh). Maybe Kj1980 can explain it to me.

Actually, I can explain that specific situation. It's unintentional, it's got nothing to do with the kanji pronounciation. "Matte" meaning wait is written 待って - notice the kanji 待 is the same as 待 in 等待 (Chinese).

The "待" kanji here is following the JAPANESE, aka KUN readings, different from the ON readings which are based on the CHINESE readings. For example, the ON reading for 待 is "tai", which is very close to the chinese reading of "dai". You will notice almost all Japanese kanji have an ON and KUN reading (and also possibly a NANORI reading which is used for Japanese names.)

The "tte" part of "Matte" is only a verb conjugation thingy. The original (aka dictionary) form of that verb is "待つ". "待って" is the te-form of the verb (it has a "te" at the end***). "待って" is not as different from "待つ", compared to "待った" which is the past tense. You could probably use "待って" in the same kind of contexts as "待つ".

All this is based on purely Japanese stuff. There is no ON reading, and it is simply a coincidence it sounds like "man dian".

If you want one that happens to sound like Chinese BECAUSE of the ON reading, try "新世紀" - that is "shin seiki" (yes, Shin Seiki as in Shin Seiki Evangelion.). The chinese reading is "shin shi ji". And that is pretty close. The meaning is also exactly the same - "new era". Isn't that handy for people who learn CHinese? :) Easier to remember a whole lot of kanji.

That is not the best example, but it just came off the top of my head. There are MANY more out there.

*** - a note about this particular scenario:
Sometimes te-forms have actualy got "de" at the end but it's still a te form. E.g. the te-form of "遊ぶ" (asobu) is "遊んで" (asonDE - not te).

Also, for example with the previous example "待って" (matte), there is a difference between that and this - "待て" (mate). Anime characters use both pretty frequently and there is a distinction between the two.

If I'm not wrong (I'm not a real expert on this subject), "待って" (matte) can be a somewhat softer imperative like "please wait here" or "please wait for me", as well as a normal verb "I wait for the bus". It's not as clear as in english when the sentence is imperative or not, because in English, imperative sentences usually don't have subjects but other ones do (whereas in Japanese most sentences don't use active subjects like he, she, I that often).

However, "待て" (mate) is strictly imperative. STRICTLY. (I feel sort of uncomfortable stating it so loudly, because I cannot be 100% sure unlike people who actually LEARN the langauge) I usually see people prefer to use the Polite form of "待て" more often though - a lot of the time, it seems, when Japanese use imperatives they use it in the polite form (to avoid sounding too rude?). FYI the polite form of "待て" is "待ちなさい" (machinasai).

Another example between this "te" thing and "imperative" thing is for the verb "放す" (hanasu - let go/set free) - the te form is "放して" (hanashite - you hear a lot of girls say this in anime o_o Especially whiny ones.) and the imperative form is "放せ" (hanase). Usually "放して" has a less strong connotation than "放せ", though I dunno if just observing some anime is enough to come to such an assumption.
By the way, I don't hear so many people say "放しなさい" - the polite form of the imperative "放せ". I guess when people want to use the imperative for "let go" they are probably in a screwed up situation and can't be bothered using polite stuff. (And if they want to be polite they'd probably just use "放して"...)

Here's another thing about ON and KUN readings - the context they're in. I'll start off with an example, the previously-mentioned "新世紀" (SHIN seiki - NEW era) and another common Japanese word: "新しい" (ATARAshii - New [adjective]). Do you notice the two kanji are used in both cases and have the same meaning? Yet different readings (Shin [ON], and Atara [KUN]) and different forms (one is a noun, one is an adjective). That's because they're in different contexts. One is used as a noun as part of a phrase, one is simply a part of an adjective. I'm no good at explaining this, but I thought I'd just mention it.

If you knew all of this I'm going to sound like a big-headed, ranting, self-important, assumptious idiot. (well I already am one so it doesn't make much of a difference :P)

Just one last useless tidbit if you don't know Chinese - you know the commonly used phrase "大丈夫"? A.K.A. "daijoubu"? (This is another example of a phrase that uses all ON readings.) In Chinese it means "big husband". (da zhang fu). o_O Why? Is having a big husband meaning you're OK?

(And just to say yeah, Muir Woods is right, there is an L and an R in chinese really - there's a difference between "ran" and "lan". or "lu" and "ru".)

The Chinese "R" sounds pretty different from the Japanese "R" - and Chinese, because it is based on pictures and not even partially phonetically, has only a very limited set of sounds.
So something like the name "Ahiru" from Princess TUtu, when you want to change into Chinese pronounciation, you'd usually just leave it in english or, you'd have to horribly mangle it. There is a sound that sounds exactly like the Japanese "A", so you could use 阿, but what about "hi"? There is no such sound in Chinese... come to think of it there isn't a close-sounding sound either. o_O Maybe "hei" 嘿 or "hui" 慧 (though that particular "hui" character won't fit Ahiru well... ;)) And "ru"? Chinese would more likely use "lu" - like "鲁". Because the chinese "ru" simply sounds odd on Ahiru. o_O

So you end up having Ahiru be changed to "aheilu". Now that's just great.

TangentZ

2004-02-22, 10:54

:topicoff:

Building upon Muir Woods and wao's posts, I thought I'd offer my little perspective. You might think that knowing Chinese has a big advantage studying Japanese (especially in the Kanji department), but it really isn't. In fact, it can be a huge obstacle. (Well, you can skip learning how to read and write Kanji, so that's good. :cool: )

As wao already explained, the Onyomi ( 音読み ) and Kunyomi ( 訓読み ) system can be VERY confusing because the same Kanji is read very differently under the two systems. In Chinese, the same character is pronounced the same way every time (with few exceptions, but they can be easily remembered once you've encountered them).

I chalk it up as similar to learning how to "spell" a word in English. But in this case, there's no pronounciation to help (so no spelling bee). It is straight-up memorization.

Of course, when the meaning of the Kanji is different than in Chinese, that's another area of memorization (even more difficult, because you're so used to the native meaning). At least if you started from scratch (say coming from English background), you won't have this kind of misunderstanding. :twitch:

Regarding "matte" and "man dian", yeah, there're lots of cases like that. It's not just Mandarin, though. I think there're also quite a few cases sounding like Cantonese. The number "roku" ( 六 ) and "lok".

I get that too when watching some Korean dramas. :heh: But that's much less frequent.

SirCanealot

2004-02-22, 13:42

Well just my 2 cents...

Engrish does annoy me a little sometimes. Bit on the other level I fully apreciate (haha, MY spelling is going already, shame I'm too lazy to spell check that word) that the voice actors/artists are using a non native lanuage.
Which brings me to my next point: Why the hell do they use English if they can't speak/write it properly? I admit, like in Full Moon wo Sagashite, if you've got a section of your series set in America, fine, but what's with the randomness Engrish throughout anime.

However, there seem to be a few who have noticed what a mockery they make of English, and satire it quite heavily. Look at Kawamura from The Prince of Tennis: BEST USE OF ENGLISH EVER!!
"COME ON! I AM SUPER REGULAR!!!"
"COME ON YOU SWEET LITTLE BOY!"
"OH NO, THANK YOU!"
I mean comeon, Kawamura CAN'T be serious... I hope.

So basically, while it does annoy me, I don't mind/hell it IS funny.

But I DO think there should be a hit squad of good English speakers that travel all over Asia and kick people's ass when they missspell shit. "North Mytholigy" in Matentai Loki Ragnorok was pretty annoying....
etc.

uzumaki

2004-02-22, 18:35

kj1980

2004-02-22, 22:32

Lina Inverse

2004-02-22, 22:42

First off, I couldn't care less about the Engrish in any Anime. As was already said, it's made by Japanese for Japanese, so why should they care to be 100% accurate - it would be a huge waste of time, and the fans would be pissed if the anime got delayed just because of this.

@uzumaki
Yuo're vastly exaggerating there. English surely isn't the non-plus-ultra - actually, it's very far from it! It's a very nasty language with extremely nasty spelling and pronunciation, because hardly anything is written as it is spoken :twitch:
Also, there are practically more exceptions than rules there, and the same letters often have several completely different pronunciations... even native speakers often don't have a firm grasp on this and have big difficulties with the proper spelling. Just enter any englsih forum, and you'll often find that the people with the best spelling are actually non-native English speakers.

Concerning the Japanese: English is not very well liked in Japan. The common Japanese cares for English about as much as for the dirt under his fingernails. This dates back to World War II when the Americans didn't exactly made themselves new friends when they dropped the atomar bomb on Hiroshima. The repercussions of this barbaric an inhuman act are still felt today. Also, the Americans left a few other "gifts" in Japan, commanding them some laws to punish them even more. One law that most of you will probably know is the censorship law for erotica (if you've seen any hentai yet, you knwo what I mean). Yes, this was imposed on the Japanese by the prudish Americans after the end of WWII. Yet another reason for the Japanese to say :fingers: to the Americans. So, of course they won't use the language of the "nice" Americans more than absolutely neccessary. They actually couldn't care less if it's now accurate or not if it isn't absolutely and inevidably neccessary that it is, e.g. with important business contacts. For anything else - as long as you get the general idea what is meant by it, it's fine. Don't waste more time on it than you must.
Finally, you should also understand that the Japanese left very isolated for a really long time, so it's not easy for them to adapt foreign things (like foreign languages).

Slade xTekno

2004-02-23, 00:26

Being a "world power" is also meaning "being ignorant in learning a language other than their native language. "

And, you'll be surprised how bad our educational system has crumbled in the last decade. The anime/manga "GTO" is a bit far-fetched, but it does give you a similar glimpse on our educational system in its shambles.

I'd argue the point that Japan is a world power. The US crippled it a long time ago. However, I agree that world powers tend to be ignorant to other languages. I don't know of anyone who really wants to take foreign languages over here. They're just taking it so it'll look good on their college application.
Also, I've always heard from my parents that Japan has one of the strictest education systems in the world [them being Korean, it's quite amazing]. It's sort of weird hearing that now. I wonder if it has to do with the spread of American culture...

Sugetsu

2004-02-23, 01:01

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2004/features/snkhistory/snk_screen022.jpg

Well, Engrish could be quite dangerous for some companies as it happened in 1994 when the famous SNK released Samurai Showdown II (My favorite Fighting game ever :D ) in the US. Many SNK's fans in the US were very offended by this irresponsible mistake, which in time would add up to many other negative aspects that would contribute to the downfall if the company :(

Here I present you a quote from one the critics of SNK (The best game company in the world :D )

"Samurai Shodown II also hinted at the company's desire to churn out fighting games as quickly as arcades could absorb them. While this business plan didn't seem to affect the quality of graphics or the playability of subsequent releases, the rush did cause SNK to skimp when it came to English-language localization. After dropping a quarter into Samurai Shodown II and selecting a character, you were presented with this brief background story: "Long, long ago, there were a man who try to make his skill ultimate. Because of his bloody life, it's no accident that he was involved in the troubles." Everything else about the game was fine--perfect even--but those 30 words would cause a new phrase to be coined to refer to the kind of broken English that SNK's localization team would become known for throughout the years. That phrase was "SNKgrish," a play on the more commonly used "Engrish," which is a popular--albeit somewhat derisive--term for English phrases conjured up by nonnative speakers, typically from Asian countries. "

Yebyosh

2004-02-23, 01:30

What i dont get is WHY they (the japanese) speak enlish so poorly: japan is supposed to have one of the best education in the world, and it is a super power and advanced in technology, so you would think that they'd atleast know the universal language. I was educated in a third world country (south near india) till middle school and when i came year people thought that i had come here several years ago (cuz my english was fine and all) (american dudes really think that english is ONLY tought in america)(universal language, hello) and most people found my english normal and understandable.
Now what i came from was a 3rd world country. and japan...wel japan cant compare. AND STILL, still their english is poor (even for seiyuu)
how do they manage? they are supposed to be a world power... And what is so great about English that every "higher order" society has to be fluent in it? English is established currently as a commerce language. Basically countries want to do trade with each other and they find a "common" language to communicate in. And guess who gets to decide. Yep, the dominating powers. Who are the dominating powers? Spain (Spanish) & England (English) during the colonial times. America (English) in recent times.

If Germany had won WW1, we might all be learning Deutsch. If Japan had conquered the world, にほんごわはしている. If China now conquers the world, 你们就会讲华语.

Being fluent in English is just as good as broadening your social interaction potential. It is not a compulsory standard that all must achieve. Good for you if you do.

About being a world power, America's & England's educational systems are well reported to be going down the drains. Not to mention now that most kids recognise "l33t d00d u r gg i m appi" but cannot even say or write "Thank you very much!".

And I like Samurai Shodown. The Engrish is a selling point to me *lol*. You toss those gaijin bushis into Edo Japan and of course the miscommunications are going to be enormous. I just treat the weird Engrish as how Charlotte thinks what Jubei is saying or what Jubei thinks Charlotte is saying :p

wao

2004-02-23, 04:45

Wow, someone read my post. I'm flattered. XD

I'd just like to highlight the fact that simply because a country has a very strict education system doesn't mean it's necessarily good (especially in today's world). :)

I think I am fairly familiar with Japan's education system, because to an extent it is mirrored in other Asian countries which depend highly on productivity and efficiency.

Let's just take the easiest example for me: Singapore government schools.

There have been many concerns lately concerning the government education system, because a certain derogatory system of rote-learning has been imprinted as a way of life into many student's heads (gee, that doesn't sound very fluent...).
Many students may score very high on tests and yes, I will agree there are many VERY hardworking students out there.

But to cut things short - many students memorize and memorize but they don't understand the meaning behind it. The point of going to school is to memorize every single way to pass a test, score with rocket-propelled flying colours, and get a job, and attain the ultimate 5 C's - Condo, Car, Country Club, Credit Card, Cash. People only learn English because that's the main language of communication, internationally and in Singapore. Learning the "unimportant" points such as spelling it, appreciating it and learning to EFFECTIVELY use it is hardly on any Singaporean kid's schedule. (If you look at the number of people who study Literature as an O-level subject, it's much lower compared to factual memorizable subjects like Geography and the sciences) Factual subjects like Science and Maths are so much more simple, and for a logn time the education system has been supporting those areas of study more than things like Literature.

The result is that while everyone has a rudimentary grasp of english, there is no sophisticated culture and awareness of proper english usage here. There are very few prolific writers. People in general are ignorant about literature and relevent arts. Even on IRC if you mention Singapore, people recognise it for having a disproportiate number of users that don't read rules, leech, have very naive views (like "I deserve anime") etc... (ok, I'm going offtopic.)

Andeven though the government has been putting out campaigns to get people to speak proper english, many still fail to see why they should do so. As long as the point gets across, that's enough.

But anyway, I assume in Japan people learn English simply because it's tested. And if they really have that mentality, after testing they forget it. I don't think they see the point in being so "stuffed-shirt" and "stiff" when it comes to English.
To sum it up into three words, I think, it's "rote learning" (if I"m not wrong, China's education system also relies heavily on this rote learning thing) and maybe "ignorance". :)

kujoe

2004-02-23, 08:16

The only thing I can say about Engrish is that, from a socio-cultural point of view, it's a matter of making something foreign into something you own. This is anime--a medium of entertainment which has emerged from the very social, political, economic and cultural factors of Japan. I don't find Engrish exactly as an insult to the language. To deconstruct standardized English, just remember that English--no matter how faithful it is to its rules--is different everywhere. For example "good luck" can mean something altogether different to two different cultural standpoints. So is Engrish an appropriated language? A mere cultural construct? I don't know. I'm not Japanese.

True, we all had to learn English as a "second language" (it's my first actually...) but I think to say that Engrish is an insult, coming from our point of view, is tantamount to imposing cultural hegemony. Sure, we should learn to speak correctly but that's a case for anyone learning a new and foreign language. I went through a minor in Japanese Studies myself, and I can tell you this: it's not as easy at it seems. You have to love the fact you're learning Japanese and the very language itself. It'll take a lot more than an educational system or some extended study period to fix the Engrish "problem."

From the point of view of an English major living in a 3rd world Asian country, I can say that there are times when Asians are criticized for their bad grammar, bad accents and poor grasp of the English language in general, whereas it's a rare thing to find an educated Asian criticize an Englishman for his awful grammar--and yet there are times when natural English speakers themselves are guilty of making a lot of grammatical mistakes! Just think about that for a moment.

TheClone

2004-02-23, 10:37

And here I though music/math was the universal language.

I've thought of English as more of a trade language, (I think the one in Star Wars is called Galactic Basic, instead of just letting us assume that the magic of Hollywood allows everyone to understand everything, they point out that almost everyone understands Galactic Basic but most choose not to speak it.) Think about it this way, the US controls about 50% of the wealth in the world, then add in other English speaking countries (UK, Canada, Australia) and you can add on to that. Can anyone give reasons why a company in a foreign speaking company that is developing for that foreign speaking country needs to speak English? I mean, isn't it safe to assume that most anime isn't aimed at an English audience.

Chrno Crusade hasn't really bothered me. Names can be taken with a bit of artistic creativity, it isn't to farfetched to get Chrono from Chrno.

Now, it wouldn't be too much to ask that they at least contract one person who is fluent in English to check the scenes with the English.

hunterx

2004-02-23, 10:45

Did you ever noticed how bad is english written and spoken in anime?

the irony is for real english speakers spelling errors doesn't bother us, unless it is expected (like in the newspaper or textbooks).

However, whenever I hear anime characters trying to speak english I do cringe a lot. It just sounds weird, they seem to enjoy speaking half-assed broken english too! Remember this is only in anime, I have watched some japanese investment shows with real japanese people speaking english and they are pretty good at it. I haven't seen or heard a real japanese person speak english like they do in anime

TheClone

2004-02-23, 11:02

I have watched some japanese investment shows with real japanese people speaking english and they are pretty good at it. I haven't seen or heard a real japanese person speak english like they do in anime

Maybe this applies to the audience, Voice actors in anime in Japan really aren't their for their English talent, they really don't need to know it, but then you see the Japanese who are involved in the corporate world, they need to know English in order to succeed. If they are involved in stock trading, it's likely that a lot of the companies they are based on have headquarters in an English speaking nation, and that helps to understand a lot of their dealing, or if they work at a large corporate office which has the headquarters in an English speaking nation, being fluent in English is needed, I mean, someone speaking Engrish doesn't make too good of a CEO. (Nor would I.) Basically, the people in the investment shows need to know English, it's virtually the language or their trade, not so for VA.

Briareos

2004-02-23, 11:45

http://www.animenation.net/news/askjohn.php?id=660 -- A mildly telling what and (more importantly) why about Engrish from John at AnimeNation.

Mr. Bushido

2004-02-23, 12:07

And to the rest of you, I think you missed my point again. I'm not asking that all japanese have to speak and write correctly or something imposible like that. I just ask for a bit more of care when writing things. And if you don't want to take risks, then don't write in a foreign language!!

Languages have a set of rules, known as grammar (if you didn't know :heh:) and a set of words or vocabulary. If you follow those rules, then you're writing right. If not, then it's wrong. There's no perspective or something like that here. I'm asking to write correctly, that's all. Specially if they're going to be aired on TV or read by lots of people, because you should make a good example. I'm not trying to say that anime has to be educative, that would be stupid. But at the same time that we can use anime to learn Japanese, japanese people can use anime and manga to remember or learn new english words. Then, at least, write'em correctly and thus help to finish the vicious circle that tsurumaru stated before.

You see? This guy resumed my idea in just one sentence. :bow:
There are shows that really care about this. An example that comes to my mind is Full Metal Alchemist: various english texts appear through the series and... they're written correctly!!! Unbelievable!! This proves that the studio really cares about details and because of that they've won my respect, since I know very well how hard it is to learn a language.

I wrote "The Final Insult" keeping in mind the two examples I showed. I think they're really offensive because they're very extreme and could be easily avoided. I can't believe that nobody in the production team of those animes/mangas didn't notice this.

And the rest of you that guessed that I don't know what I'm talking about, well you guessed too much. I can't say I know Japanese (yet), but I'm learning it. And if you didn't notice it from my second post, I know already all the pronunciation and syllabary thing, so don't bother to explain it again. Anyway, that's no excuse to not pick a dictionary or an atlas and do things the right way.

Because in the end, as I said before, doing things correctly it's not that hard. If you can choose, why doing it wrong?

too lazy to read rest of thread....

America is worse. i think on the frst page one guy was writing about those japanese ppl just saying jibberish in those american movies... becuz they're not really japanese. If they cared, they wouldve hired japanese ppl.

besides that, id love to see you make an anime series in spanish.... but put the setting in china or japan and spell EVERYTHING right.

TangentZ

2004-02-23, 12:16

besides that, id love to see you make an anime series in spanish.... but put the setting in china or japan and spell EVERYTHING right.

Anime is not made by just one person. It's made by a team of people. So what if GarBhaD doesn't know Chinese or Japanese? Just hire a (competent) native speaker to proofread everything. Team members complement each other.

uzumaki

2004-02-23, 19:03

Maybe this applies to the audience, Voice actors in anime in Japan really aren't their for their English talent, they really don't need to know it, but then you see the Japanese who are involved in the corporate world, they need to know English in order to succeed. If they are involved in stock trading, it's likely that a lot of the companies they are based on have headquarters in an English speaking nation, and that helps to understand a lot of their dealing, or if they work at a large corporate office which has the headquarters in an English speaking nation, being fluent in English is needed, I mean, someone speaking Engrish doesn't make too good of a CEO. (Nor would I.) Basically, the people in the investment shows need to know English, it's virtually the language or their trade, not so for VA.

!!! I think we have the dot right here. I really doubt that japanese are bad at english because they hate americans or beacuse americans set up sensorship laws for them, but because we are only looking at voice actors, who probably skipped classes knowing that they were going to animation school and didnt pay attention in their english class. Japanese Ivy league material, on the other hand, probably learned pretty decent english (and other advanced tech and bussiness stuff too, probably) and went on to become the leaders of those companies whose computers etc we buy today.
Just like in spanish class here. Some kids are good at it (those who actually want to speak it) and some dont give a damn but are still taking it since you have to take 3 years of a foreign language.
well thats my unbiased theory. I added 'unbiased' because clearly some of you are just too attached to anime and "japan" and refuse to bash at it at all. I prefer to remain objective.