Toradora! - Episode 19 Discussion / Poll

[Pellissier]

Welcome to the discussion thread for Toradora!, Episode 19.

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[frivolity]

I feel like giving this episode a 10 before it even aired... So much anticipation, hope it lives up to expectations.

[BetoJR]

I predict lots of people giving it "1", myself. :heh:

[asrielchase]

...because it'd be "painful" to watch? :heh:

[SageGaiGar]

To 'pimpin' suit. Wonder at what point they'll finish the episode at compared to the material.

[roan]

I predict lots of people giving it "1", myself. :heh:

I predict the same. :uhoh:

[SageGaiGar]

Yeah, I can see certain groups getting butthurt over this. Can't say until the episode airs.

[wistfulloner]

This episode very much might finish off the christmas arc. And if I predict correctly, things will go horribly downhill from this point onwards...

[typhonsentra]

I'm calling it now: This'll be the most discussed episode to date.

[Kaisos Erranon]

Avoiding Toradora! forum until I watch this. I want to have a first impression for once...

Laters.

[roan]

Mrm. I dunno what to say about this.
What I felt was the most important part to this arc was cut out, but I suppose it's going to be saved for episode 21?

[physics223]

I'll watch any speed-subbing group who will release this first. Then I'll watch CG's releases, and then watch that again.

Oh god, I can't wait.

[Isekaijin]

Indeed, this episode will be a decisive step in Toradora! It will be epic if done right...

...But then again, I must not have high hopes.

sigh...

[typhonsentra]

Aren't CoalGuys always first anyway?

[Sinestra]

Im highly anticipating this episode as i think some serious meat and potatoes are going to be stewed up for us. Im resisting urges to watch the RAW and speed subs i really want to get the dialog down so i will be patient for the normal subs but FRACK is it going to be hard.

Ryu in pimp suit is a must see.

[Miles Teg]

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/9211/1234369559953ri5.th.jpg (http://img22.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1234369559953ri5.jpg) http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/8827/1234369699417vv2.th.jpg (http://img23.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1234369699417vv2.jpg) http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/1487/1234369885311ye9.th.jpg (http://img9.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1234369885311ye9.jpg)

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/3407/1234369933970ad6.th.jpg (http://img10.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1234369933970ad6.jpg) http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/1768/1233161490362re0.th.jpg (http://img10.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1233161490362re0.jpg) http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/6199/1234370277182kp9.th.jpg (http://img17.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1234370277182kp9.jpg)

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/6941/1234370328808gx3.th.jpg (http://img13.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1234370328808gx3.jpg) http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/3244/1234370379255xu2.th.jpg (http://img11.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1234370379255xu2.jpg) http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/5905/1234370394137ji2.th.jpg (http://img21.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1234370394137ji2.jpg)

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/194/1234370584367sn5.th.jpg (http://img10.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1234370584367sn5.jpg) http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/5294/1234370790153xr9.th.jpg (http://img23.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1234370790153xr9.jpg) http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/3082/1234370648067gf8.th.jpg (http://img22.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1234370648067gf8.jpg)

The most important part of this episode :


Taiga finally convinces Minori to go to the party, then goes home.
Ryuuji thinks its sad that Taiga should have to spend the evening alone, so he trades in his party suit for a bear costume and heads back to play Santa for Taiga.
Taiga is surprised by Ryuuji turning up, dancing / hugging / awwwww scene.
Taiga thanks Ryuuji for making her happy, but throws him out, telling him to head back to finally meet & confess to Minori.
After he left, Taiga goes all bawww because she realized how happy she is with Ryuuji and how much she needs him. So she cries and runs out into the cold, trying to go after him. But of course he's already gone, so Taiga is left crying in the street.
Minorin being on the way to the party spots Taiga, who's out in the cold, crying out Ryuuj's name.
Minorin meets Ryuuji, but before he can confess she tells him "You know Ghosts and UFOs and stuff? I think I'd be better if I didn't see them". Then she leaves.
Ryuuji collapses.

[typhonsentra]

New ED? Obviously just a one-time deal.

[maxpepper]

Taiga looks nice, just like Audrey Hepburn. :)

[Miles Teg]

New ED? Obviously just a one-time deal.

The ED was more like the ED for a last episode.

I think that was a good idea, the new ED would probably have been seen out of place by a lot of people (like Clannad ep16).

Taiga looks nice, just like Audrey Hepburn. :)

And Ryuuji looks way better with his "yakuza" style.

[War_Lord]

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/9211/1234369559953ri5.th.jpg (http://img22.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1234369559953ri5.jpg) http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/8827/1234369699417vv2.th.jpg (http://img23.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1234369699417vv2.jpg) http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/1487/1234369885311ye9.th.jpg (http://img9.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1234369885311ye9.jpg)

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/3407/1234369933970ad6.th.jpg (http://img10.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1234369933970ad6.jpg) http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/1768/1233161490362re0.th.jpg (http://img10.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1233161490362re0.jpg) http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/6199/1234370277182kp9.th.jpg (http://img17.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1234370277182kp9.jpg)


http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/6941/1234370328808gx3.th.jpg (http://img13.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1234370328808gx3.jpg) http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/3244/1234370379255xu2.th.jpg (http://img11.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1234370379255xu2.jpg) http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/5905/1234370394137ji2.th.jpg (http://img21.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1234370394137ji2.jpg)

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/194/1234370584367sn5.th.jpg (http://img10.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1234370584367sn5.jpg) http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/5294/1234370790153xr9.th.jpg (http://img23.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1234370790153xr9.jpg) http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/3082/1234370648067gf8.th.jpg (http://img22.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1234370648067gf8.jpg)

The most important part of this episode :


Taiga finally convinces Minori to go to the party, then goes home.
Ryuuji thinks its sad that Taiga should have to spend the evening alone, so he trades in his party suit for a bear costume and heads back to play Santa for Taiga.
Taiga is surprised by Ryuuji turning up, dancing / hugging / awwwww scene.
Taiga thanks Ryuuji for making her happy, but throws him out, telling him to head back to finally meet & confess to Minori.
After he left, Taiga goes all bawww because she realized how happy she is with Ryuuji and how much she needs him. So she cries and runs out into the cold, trying to go after him. But of course he's already gone, so Taiga is left crying in the street.
Minorin being on the way to the party spots Taiga, who's out in the cold, crying out Ryuuj's name.
Minorin meets Ryuuji, but before he can confess she tells him "You know Ghosts and UFOs and stuff? I think I'd be better if I didn't see them". Then she leaves.
Ryuuji collapses.



Wow, thats too adorable. I gotta see this episode, raw or not.

[Manji Midou]

Why the hate?

l find her responsible for what happened at the end, even though she has no clue that person saw her. To make things clear, l'm not pissed at her but at how things ended up going down.

[BetoJR]

l find her responsible for what happened at the end, even though she has no clue that person saw her. To make things clear, l'm not pissed at her but at how things ended up going down.
But, if you concede she has no clue, how can she be held responsible? I'm at a loss, here...

[Manji Midou]

But, if you concede she has no clue, how can she be held responsible? I'm at a loss, here...

like l said l'm not really blaming her, l'm just pissed at the outcome. l needed to vent my frustration at someone and even though she has no clue....she is still the reason for things turning out like they did. let me re-state this l'm not pissed at her at all but the outcome itself.

[Neki Ecko]

I cant wait to see the episode, myself and looking at screencaps of it, I think they hit a grand slam on it. Will comment more after subs:D

[Kikuchi]

Just saw the episode. I'm pissed at the end result but can't blame anyone for it. This is something way too complicated for a single person to be held responsible.

The ep was really, really good anyway. Wasn't disappointed by the drama.

[Deathscyther]

Nice emotional episode =)

I liked the inserted song in the end, 'Orange' would have been too upbeat for this episode imo.

I won't give it a 10 though, since the novel did this part way better. But it was still nice to see these scenes animated :)

I guess they're saving a certain scene for another episode.

- Ryuuji looks cool in his suit and Taiga looks very pretty, but I like her hair better when it's loose myself:p
- Kitamura.....
- Taiga makes everyone happy, while being unhappy and lonely herself;
- Ryuuji chooses making Taiga happy over waiting for Minorin;
- Taiga finally realizes how she truly feels about Ryuuji after thinking that she was going to lose him and breaks down, crying out Ryuuj's name;
- Minorin sees Taiga breaking down. She then realizes that she had been right this whole time;
- Minorin dumps Ryuuji before he even has the chance to confess;

[Waven]

A clear 10 for me since i'm rooting for TaigaxRyuuji - biased but it's that simple :D

[puppygod]

Wow. Just wow. I wasn't sure if JCStaff manage to pull it out, but seems like they did. Now just wait for subs to get all nuances that I missed, but looks like a good candidate for solid 10.

[Neki Ecko]

I had to look at the Raw, I couldnt wait for the subs but I will get to my feeling about that later.

First of all, I think I am getting tired of "this episode is very good but this scene and that scene was done better in the novel" crap. Remember the novel will be superior in all aspects because it was the original context and animation or manga or movie would borrow some of context and make it their own (Like Harry Potter for example). So the novel would been still superior if they added all the context that was in this chapter in this episode or even the whole anime. I know that everybody has right to voice opinions but dont based a episode (or the whole series) because certain part of novel was done better than the animation.

But back to the episode, I think that J.C. Staff did a excellent job on it and I think this series has set the bar really high right now when it comes down to this genre, hand down. Believe me, it is going to be a while until something like this will come up again. This is now one of my top 3 Anime of all time.

10/10

[Deathscyther]

I had to look at the Raw, I couldnt wait for the subs but I will get to my feeling about that later.

First of all, I think I am getting alittle tired of "this episode is very good but this scene and that scene was done better in the novel" crap. Remember the novel will be superior in all aspects because it was the original context and animation or manga or movie would borrow some of context and make it their own (Like Harry Potter for example). So the novel would been still superior if they added all the context that was in this chapter in this episode or even the whole anime. I know that everybody has right to voice opinions but dont based a episode (or the whole series) because certain part of novel was done better than the animation.

But back to the episode, I think that J.C. Staff did a excellent job on it and I think this series has set the bar really high right now when it comes down to this genre, hand down. Believe me, it is going to be a while until something like this will come up again. This is now one of my top 3 Anime of all time.

10/10

Haha gomen, but that chapter of the novel was done so well that I want everyone to read it:p

And I agree....Toradora is one of the best animes of this genre:)

[qwerty_]

Well, just another guy praying hard for subs appear like tomorrow morning.

Review later.

And yes, some 1's might appear. Hope 5% or less.

[Darknemo2000]

First of all, I think I am getting tired of "this episode is very good but this scene and that scene was done better in the novel" crap. Remember the novel will be superior in all aspects because it was the original context and animation or manga or movie would borrow some of context and make it their own

Everyone have their right for an opinion. Grounded or not - thats just your personal opion. Leave it at that. Bitching about other's bitching doesn't make you look smarter.

[SageGaiGar]

Everyone have their right for an opinion. Grounded or not - thats just your personal opion. Leave it at that. Bitching about other's bitching doesn't make you look smarter.

But damn is it fun. Reading chapter 7, you can get the gist of things watching the raw. They kept the core of it.

[Raiga]

Santa scene made me smile. ^^ Even though I figured that Taiga knew from the start and all... but I guess that's kind of part of what made the scene so nice.

A lot of stuff sure happened at the end there... gonna hafta wait on subs.

[iTittycakes]

I can't wait for the subs, but I got the gist of things. I voted perfect 10, because obviously there's a lot of emotional and relationship clear ups.

[ken_FF]

So, the lesson here: Try not to fall in love with the same person as your best friend. It'll just cause pain on both sides :P

[Kazuya Shiranami]

at this rate i really start to think that ryuji should go whit ami, a less traumatic couple for him

[SageGaiGar]

at this rate i really start to think that ryuji should go whit ami, a less traumatic couple for him

A shipper to the end. Enjoy the ride :D But that would hurt Taiga.

[typhonsentra]

Mrm. I dunno what to say about this.
What I felt was the most important part to this arc was cut out, but I suppose it's going to be saved for episode 21?

What was it? Did they take out her admitting to herself that she wanted Ryuuji over Yuusaku?

[Led_Zeppelin]

What was it? Did they take out her admitting to herself that she wanted Ryuuji over Yuusaku?

She doesn't say say out loud "I love ryuuji and for a long time"

I love this episode, I almoust feel the happiness of taiga when she was with Ryuuji-bear... and the loneliness when he goes...

Damn now can't wait for chapter 20, but i feel that this is the best chapter of the season... i hope to be wrong... :heh:

10/10

[Tri-ring]

I thought it was great and I have to praise the VAs especially Ms. Gimiya Rie for her part making Taiga so real.
As for Minori's action and or the screen play as a whole I was anticipating a more spectacular emotional break down but I guess it was left out to focus Taiga to carry on that part.
My question is why did Minori go to Taiga's place before going to school to meet Ryuji?
I don't think the direct route takes Minori to Taiga's condo so something must have been left out.

In any casethe series wrapped up three love affections;
Kitamura × Sumire
Taiga × Kitamura
Minori × Ryuji

I wonder how long Ryuji will drag his emotions towards Minori after being rejected and how Taiga will come fowards towards Ryuji, we also still have Ami as the wild card.

[puppygod]

My question is why did Minori go to Taiga's place before going to school to meet Ryuji?
I don't think the direct route takes Minori to Taiga's condo so something must have been left out.

In novel it's mentioned that before meeting Ryuji Minori wanted to ask Taiga about her feelings. What she saw pretty much answered her question.

[chaosprophet]

This is one of the very rare times where I watched a raw... but as I already read volume 7 I decided to give it a try... it seems to be very good but will wait for the subs before I rate it.

[Manji Midou]

at this rate i really start to think that ryuji should go whit ami, a less traumatic couple for him

l concur, Ami might not have been a saint at the start but she has changed alot. l think they would make a better then say taigaxryuji or minorixryuji.

[Tango337]

My question is why did Minori go to Taiga's place before going to school to meet Ryuji?
I don't think the direct route takes Minori to Taiga's condo so something must have been left out.


She intentionally went to Taiga's home before going to the party to ask about taigas feelings on the matter of ryuuji. And her intuition was totally correct - she wanted a confirmation of Taiga's feelings and she found massive proof. She found out how sincerely Taiga loves Ryuuji, she confirmed to herself that Taiga needs Ryuuji much.. much more. That's why Minorin goes to Ryuuji and finally says 'NO', metaphorically but directly.

[SageGaiGar]

She intentionally went to Taiga's home before going to the party to ask about taigas feelings on the matter of ryuuji. And her intuition was totally correct - she wanted a confirmation of Taiga's feelings and she found massive proof. She found out how sincerely Taiga loves Ryuuji, she confirmed to herself that Taiga needs Ryuuji much.. much more. That's why Minorin goes to Ryuuji and finally says 'NO', metaphorically but directly.

Yeah, he's really her only support in a sense, besides her. Though that sounds almost like Ryuji's a crutch, which he really is not. Without the other, neither would have really made as much progress as they have now. The core of that I find beautiful. Sorry for those disappointed so far.

[Bonta Kun]

ok this may be quite the "WHOA AWESOME!!!" ep but its also got a huge "WTMFH?!" and that comes in the manner of a certain Kitamura:twitch::dots:

seriously WTMFH?!!

[SageGaiGar]

ok this may be quite the "WHOA AWESOME!!!" ep but its also got a huge "WTMFH?!" and that comes in the manner of a certain Kitamura:twitch::dots:

seriously WTMFH?!!

Yeah so he had the costume *but* forgot the top. Kitamura being.. Kitamura, he decided to simply wear what he had. Hence he is 'nudist Santa'. Really it's pretty damn classic of him to pull something like this, shameless bastard :heh:

[Darknemo2000]

He is just an exhibitionist.

[Voitan]

l concur, Ami might not have been a saint at the start but she has changed alot. l think they would make a better then say taigaxryuji or minorixryuji.

Minorin x Taiga, c'mon...

[stormy001_M1A2]

This is the best episode to date. The emotional feedback is excellent and solid voice acting helps. Less comedy, more on story.

And Minorin is one of the best female character so far, close behind Ami in this series. All the "rival" females is much better than main lead. Strange.

The fact Minorin's monologue in the end means she do like Ryuji but she decided to put Taiga before her own feelings. People who don't like you won't do things like she did in the end of the episode.

[Isekaijin]

Ejem...

A week ago, I said something among the lines of not recognizing a TaigaxRyuuji relationship, unless this episode were extremely good.

Didn't expect they would do it, but I was wrong.

God, this episode was pure gold, by far one of the best, not only in Toradora! but in anime in general. Except for Kitamura acting out of place... again, this episode was beyond perfection. 11/10 if I might say that.

But it seems to close both Ami and Minorin routes, which is a shame, but what a way to do it!

[Peanutbutter]

Just saw subs (Chinese subs):

Inko-chan was as usual hilarious. Yasuko-chan with her Guns and Roses. Half-naked Kitamura scares me. Christmas song was unexpected and awesome and brilliant and I ran out of words. Ami getting pissed off at a clueless Ryuuji. Does that mean it's case closed for Ryuuji x Ami now?

Now for the emotional part.

- Taiga bear hugging bear was very heartwarming. Kinda surprised to see that she obviously knew it was Ryuuji but I guessed that's how things goes.

- Taiga crying and bawling like a baby after forcing Ryuuji to go back to the party made me shakes my head. I supposed that right now, she's finally clear on who she likes.

- Emorin. Well, she's right after all. (Lucky I stayed out of this thread before watching the episode as there are spoilers above.)

Rough translation of that final part:

Emorin: Takasu, let me begin first. About that time in Ami's holiday house, about the spirits and UFO we were talking about. I thought it through and I guessed it's better that I don't see them at all. That's all I have, bye.

Ryuuji: Wait, does that mean...I'm dumped?!?!

*faintz*

Poor Ryuuji.

I demand full Christmas song right here, right now!

[houkoholic]

For those thinking that Minorin made a big saracfice you have to look at what Ryuji is doing as well.


He placed a higher priority to make Taiga happy than the fact that Taiga had set him up a chance to confess to Minorin. Not only did he went to the trouble of playing Santa Bear, but he actually made excuses to reject the chance that Taiga had gave him until Taiga literally booted him out of the apartment. In his heart Taiga is WAY more important than any of the other girls, it's clearly shown in his actions. The only thing he hasn't realised, which Ami clearly sees and pointed out to him (the other reason that Ami's speech last week wasn't about her "wanting another chance" [extremely poor wording on the fansub's part btw], but really showing that she already knew that her opportunity is far gone and the only possible scenario that she could be in the race would've been if she was included in the gang from the beginning, which is of course impossible [no time resets], so she decided to saracfice herself too by helping Taiga/Ryuji/Minorin), is that he is pretending to play father.

Even if Ryuji ends up with Minorin, you can't have a true relationship when Ryuji is going to worry about Taiga being lonely the first thing in his mind. Minorin is quite wise in rejecting Ryuji because while they do like each other, it's clearly shown that Ryuji's true heart is no longer there for Minorin, which you can even see hints of since Taiga's father arc (not to mention they haven't been able to reach the sort of mutual understanding that TaigaXRyuji has).

[stormy001_M1A2]

Ryuji's action speaks louder than his word. Minorin can see it, so is Ami but Ryuji is pretty oblivious. How ironic.

[Vexx]

I think its fascinating watching posters tear their shirts asunder over what Ryuuji *should* do rather than think about why he and the other characters *are* doing and why.

[stormy001_M1A2]

I wonder if you talking about me, Vexx when you say about torn shirt asunder part. LOL.

[Darknemo2000]

Vexx, thats because one empathize with a character. But because of that it eventually turns self presentation to it as well. Not exactly a self insert but not too far from it, thats why the shirt tearing happens. Its pretty normal. I would be shocked if most would be thinking why he and the other characters *are* doing and why.

[Vexx]

Heh, I just tend to follow stories as a whole -- I rarely identify with a specific character and rarely try to mentally force them into directions that may not synchronize with the forces of events within the story :) Now I may mentally thrash the *writer* for making poor connections within the plot.

(A, B, C..., M, .. R.. um, ..... Profit!!!)

Carry on though, the shirt sundering is interesting to watch o.O :) and I meant it in a humorous way. I just don't tend to self-identify with characters.

One does wonder what would have happened if Minorin had never seen what she saw to make the decision she did. But that didn't happen.

[aohige]

I wonder if you talking about me, Vexx when you say about torn shirt asunder part. LOL.

Obviously not, since all you're doing is grinding your teeth on your underwear. :heh:

[Freya]

Is Minorin still pathetic and stuff or did she redeem herself?

[Tri-ring]

I wonder, and I know the staff of JC staff discussed till they turned blue but the last scene where Minori was giving her adios speech to Ryuji which was probably breaking her heart as well, why no tears?
I mean she was sacrifcing her own possibilities for the sake of her best friend's interest and she was truely looking foward towards the possibility of having a romantic relationship with Ryuji or she wouldn't have gone over to Taiga's place to double check Taiga's true feelings.
Was it out of character?
She wasn't strong enough to see Ryuji in the eyes to turn him down meaning something was still holding her back but then why no tears?

[CaptGloval]

Hm, so I guess ToraDora/JC Staff saying "Happy Valentine's Day!"

[wistfulloner]

Sorry folks, I'm still sorting out the emotions after finishing EP19. Will give a detailed review sometime later.

And yes, no more comparisons between the anime and novel please. Both did an equally great job IMO, it's just which medium you can relate to better.

[Kinku]

i really dont write something till i watch the subs but after watchin the raw..i was totally taken back by the whole ep....but dam even though i didnt understand a single word, the whole last part of the eps really made me feel ask out my best friend before valentine day

no offence to Ami at all but i thought tiga look alot better in the black dress while they were singing on stage.

[Justin Kim]

Lol subs, need to come out faster>:(...I kept reading the spoilers, but meh at least now I won't be like WTH TAIGA-_-.

[Deathkillz]

Is Minorin still pathetic and stuff or did she redeem herself?
Former I would say...

That and I don't even know why Minori is like this anymore...simply put she is just torn between her own feelings for Ryuji and wanting to help Taiga or what?
(Still ridiculous the amount of melodrama she is churning out).

[wistfulloner]

Alright, I've cooled down enough to put some of my thoughts in words:

What else can I say? The earlier 30 or so posters just about got my thoughts in order; this episode was brilliant.

The subtleties were omnipresent, such as Kusheida hiding her expression from Ryuji and Taiga's satisfaction in getting everyone happy. They add a nice touch to the story by giving keen observers further insight into the minds of the characters.

One of the most powerful moments in the anime can be found in the ending part of this episode. Rie gives a stunning voice performance in conveying Taiga's anguish. I just wished it could have been longer.

Differences from the novel are largely insignificant, as the anime can stand by itself and still give a moving experience. The only noticeable difference is that the part where Taiga bravely picks herself up after crying her heart out in the novel is missing in the anime. While it puts Taiga in a more pathetic light which is somewhat out of her character, overall impact was not so bad.

Overall, one of the best Toradora episodes I've watched. 10/10.

I'm still wondering what the sore feet mean. It should be formed while she wore high heels, but what is it's significance?

[puppygod]

(...)
I'm still wondering what the sore feet mean. It should be formed while she wore high heels, but what is it's significance?

Dunno. But note that despite all that blisters she was still jumping from joy like crazy, so maybe to underline the "awwww" factor?

[Led_Zeppelin]

I'm still wondering what the sore feet mean. It should be formed while she wore high heels, but what is it's significance?

I think is becouse the cold of the outside, Taiga is in barefoot in the outside, and minori is heavy wrapped-up ...

[physics223]

I can feel it's going to be one of the best Toradora episodes ever. Of course, I'm not reading any posts, just saying my piece while waiting for it to be subbed.

[typhonsentra]

Ryuji's action speaks louder than his word. Minorin can see it, so is Ami but Ryuji is pretty oblivious. How ironic.

I dunno if I agree with this. He was pretty much destroyed by Minori's rejection. I'd say those feelings were quite strong and very real.

[puppygod]

I dunno if I agree with this. He was pretty much destroyed by Minori's rejection. I'd say those feelings were quite strong and very real.

Yes, but one doesn't exclude other. One of main points of the whole story is (in my opinion) exploring different aspects of love and relationships. Just like in real life - it's almost never according to binary logic true/false. You can have feelings for more than one person. And it often leads to somebody being hurt...

[Kinny Riddle]

Excellent use of a special ED. Kyoto-Animation, watch and learn. If the story demands it, then a special ED is sometimes more appropriate for the mood if your usual ED happens to be awkwardly upbeat.

Anyway, like I said, the turning point of whole story, when Taiga finally realizes her feelings for Ryuji (her feelings for Kitamura not yet settled completely as well), and then to have Minorin see the whole thing, and both end up hurting themselves by trying to shove Ryuji to each other.

Ryuji being the most oblivious of them all ends up in limbo, though subconsciously, he's already made the choice of choosing Taiga over Minorin by choosing to go to Taiga in his Pedo Bear, sorry, Santa Bear suit, so that she wouldn't be alone. Of course, he may try to use Ami's explanation that he's only caring for Taiga like a father, but sooner or later, even this excuse would wear thin, and Ryuji would have to confront this feeling.


He placed a higher priority to make Taiga happy than the fact that Taiga had set him up a chance to confess to Minorin. Not only did he went to the trouble of playing Santa Bear, but he actually made excuses to reject the chance that Taiga had gave him until Taiga literally booted him out of the apartment. In his heart Taiga is WAY more important than any of the other girls, it's clearly shown in his actions. The only thing he hasn't realised, which Ami clearly sees and pointed out to him (the other reason that Ami's speech last week wasn't about her "wanting another chance" [extremely poor wording on the fansub's part btw], but really showing that she already knew that her opportunity is far gone and the only possible scenario that she could be in the race would've been if she was included in the gang from the beginning, which is of course impossible [no time resets], so she decided to saracfice herself too by helping Taiga/Ryuji/Minorin), is that he is pretending to play father.

Even if Ryuji ends up with Minorin, you can't have a true relationship when Ryuji is going to worry about Taiga being lonely the first thing in his mind. Minorin is quite wise in rejecting Ryuji because while they do like each other, it's clearly shown that Ryuji's true heart is no longer there for Minorin, which you can even see hints of since Taiga's father arc (not to mention they haven't been able to reach the sort of mutual understanding that TaigaXRyuji has).

And that pretty much sums it up.

Poor Ami, she has no chance and she knows it.

And Kitamura? I think he's now content on being the Patron Saint of Broken Hearts, which means Ryuji might need to make an appointment with him soon. :heh:

Anyway, this is as far as I've read in the novels, so it's going to be all new territory for me from next week on, but Taiga breaking into tears is definitely the turning point. Now it's all the way to the end, especially now author Takemiya Yuyuko will end the series at volume 10 to coincide with the ending of the anime.

I think it's safe to say Takemiya is a very good writer, if not a great one.

Two thumbs up. I look forward to see how it all ends.

ok this may be quite the "WHOA AWESOME!!!" ep but its also got a huge "WTMFH?!" and that comes in the manner of a certain Kitamura:twitch::dots:

seriously WTMFH?!!

Yeah so he had the costume *but* forgot the top. Kitamura being.. Kitamura, he decided to simply wear what he had. Hence he is 'nudist Santa'. Really it's pretty damn classic of him to pull something like this, shameless bastard :heh:

He is just an exhibitionist.

Not only is Kitamura an exhibitionist, he's also a masochist, as can be seen by him seemingly enjoyed getting abused by Haruta as he toys with his suspenders. lol

(In comparison, while Kitamura is a physical masochist, Ryuji is a mental masochist, in that he happily accepts all the abuse thrown to him by Taiga, all because he cares about her. )

[wistfulloner]

I'm in conflict whether Taiga really loves Ryuji romantically. She bursts out of her apartment crying not because she loves him deeply, but rather because she can't bear to leave him and that she'll never be with him if he goes with Minori. At Baka-tsuki Taiga said, "I need Ryuji, in other words I love him." She loves him because of the support he provides for her, and she has depended on him for so long.

Is this what they call "love" in the romantic sort of way? Or is Taiga simply reluctant to let go of someone who has standing by her all this while?

[BetoJR]

That's up to speculation at this point. I'd go with the notion she has finally realized her feelings, and they run very deep. Categorizing and labeling those with words like "need", "love", "affection", when these ultimately tend to mean exactly the same is pointless, in my opinion.

She does love him, and that realization will have lots of consequences, I'd wager. I, for one, can't wait for the next episode - and the next translated chapter/volume.

[CaptGloval]

Alright, I've cooled down enough to put some of my thoughts in words:

The subtleties were omnipresent, such as Kusheida hiding her expression from Ryuji and Taiga's satisfaction in getting everyone happy. They add a nice touch to the story by giving keen observers further insight into the minds of the characters.


Shouldn't that be "For spoiled eyes only"? Anyway, good observation about Minori. Why did she do it like that? Maybe the answer is in the coming episodes.

I'm still wondering what the sore feet mean. It should be formed while she wore high heels, but what is it's significance?

Let me take a stab, it's like she's hurting at her base/foundation.

[stormy001_M1A2]

I dunno if I agree with this. He was pretty much destroyed by Minori's rejection. I'd say those feelings were quite strong and very real.

But before that incident? He pretty much bulldoze his emotions without noticing the subtle hints around him especially Ami.

[BetoJR]

But before that incident? He pretty much bulldoze his emotions without noticing the subtle hints around him especially Ami.
Oh, c'mon. :eyespin:

Put yourself in his shoes. He knows how she behaves duplicitly - even if she has changed (a lot), that's still his first impression of her.

Also, she's right: her chances of a relationship with him suffer from not being "in the loop" from the beginning. Not fair, and I wish it wasn't so, but that's how things are. I'm not saying she couldn't have overcome these hurdles, but as things stand now... I don't really believe so, not anymore. :upset:

[SageGaiGar]

I do have some sympathy for Ami being out of the loop myself more than a few times.

[palmtopDRAGON]

Hey guys,

I'm new here, I've been watching the anime, and I decided I wanted to join in on the discussions.

Episode 19 was great. I'm still waiting on the subs, but from what I saw/understood there are some good things happening. I still feel that there is more to come from Minori, though. I don't remember who it was, but you've been discussion the way in which she left Ryuji down. Her not making eye contact says to me she didn't do it for her own sake, and eventually those feelings will come forth. We'll see.

I'm actually more curious why a large majority of people on the internet don't want a TaigaxRyuji ending.

[Vexx]

I don't *think* its a "large majority"..... just a vocal one.

If Ami had shown up just a few months earlier this might have been quite a different story. But I think that's something the author WANTS to get across... that time and space and chance have more to do with life than "true soulmates" or anything like that. What we're starting to see is that real life isn't "boy picks the girl, lalala whee" like a harem fantasy -- the girls make their own decisions as well. No matter how much Ryuuji may think he wants Minorin, if she tags herself out - thats the end of it. No matter how much Ami may desire things to be different, she was late and got off on the wrong foot with Ryuuji. She also knows these are the only friends she really has (Kihara and her buddy are really just moths drawn to her light), so SHE's deciding how to proceed to protect her circle of friends. Taiga is trying to do what she thinks Ryuuji wants even though it tears her up once the probable outcome of that is realized.

One of the more interesting things here is that, much like real life, each character is operating with a partial set of information (some of which is wrong) but that drives their choices just the same.

[Darknemo2000]

Vexx, though it may be not a 'majority' I would not call it just a vocal minority either. For a few reasons.

One that TaigaxRyuuji is juts too predictable and not all like that, other is that some people, like me f.e., can't stand Taiga's character, or some simply prefer other girls.

Taiga's and Ryyuuji's relationship can be disturbing, but again it depends on what you think love is. This excessive Ryuuji's care about Taiga looks bit unhealthy. Sometimes like too caring mothers that do not want to admit their children to be grown up... And Taiga being very dependable on him, though she tries to show her independence in the end she still remains as a pet as a final result, palm-top tiger.

Such love can be disturbing to some, as opposed to relationship between two equal people (something in the lines what RuyuujixAmi could be), here we have too deep reaching (maybe even obsessive) caring and dependence, that some have troubles to call true love.

[SageGaiGar]

I don't *think* its a "large majority"..... just a vocal one.

If Ami had shown up just a few months earlier this might have been quite a different story. But I think that's something the author WANTS to get across... that time and space and chance have more to do with life than "true soulmates" or anything like that. What we're starting to see is that real life isn't "boy picks the girl, lalala whee" like a harem fantasy -- the girls make their own decisions as well. No matter how much Ryuuji may think he wants Minorin, if she tags herself out - thats the end of it. No matter how much Ami may desire things to be different, she was late and got off on the wrong foot with Ryuuji. She also knows these are the only friends she really has (Kihara and her buddy are really just moths drawn to her light), so SHE's deciding how to proceed to protect her circle of friends. Taiga is trying to do what she thinks Ryuuji wants even though it tears her up once the probable outcome of that is realized.

One of the more interesting things here is that, much like real life, each character is operating with a partial set of information (some of which is wrong) but that drives their choices just the same.

Couldn't have said it better. It's easier and more masochistically fun to complain about an outcome not going *your* way.

At the start I was more in the camp of finding a TaigaxRyuuji boring 'cliche'. The development along the way has changed that feeling. And this episode clearly shows it.

Vexx, though it may be not a 'majority' I would not call it just a vocal minority either. For a few reasons.

One that TaigaxRyuuji is juts too predictable and not all like that, other is that some people, like me f.e., can't stand Taiga's character, or some simply prefer other girls.

Taiga's and Ryyuuji's relationship can be disturbing, but again it depends on what you think love is. This excessive Ryuuji's care about Taiga looks bit unhealthy. Sometimes like too caring mothers that do not want to admit their children to be grown up... And Taiga being very dependable on him, though she tries to show her independence in the end she still remains as a pet as a final result, palm-top tiger.

Such love can be disturbing to some, as opposed to relationship between two equal people (something in the lines what RuyuujixAmi could be), here we have too deep reaching caring and dependence.

Every opinion has its place but really the questions to ask are:
What is love? Friendship? How much would you sacrifice for others? Is your happiness dependent on others?

Probably a bit much for an episode discussion but these are the questions of the story.

[Darknemo2000]

Well lets say what is a difference of motherly love - one mother cares for her son but allows him to have separate life, another protrudes in every living sphere of her son and basically controls him through her care.

Both mother's love their children but some people may find the second type of love unhealthy.

Same way with this love between Ryuuji and Taiga. Is it real love or an obsessive attachment? A confused friendship or a romance? etc.

It makes you ask questions to which you cannot really find real undeniable answers as the relationship is ... different than you are used to...

Something similar in relationship was when AsukaxShinji questions rose more than ten years ago in Evangelion... Though in that case because Shinji and Asuka were much more mentally disturbed than Taiga and Ryuuji their love was much easier to label as a disturbing one.

[Kyanme]

Same way with this love between Ryuuji and Taiga. Is it real love or an obsessive attachment? A confused friendship or a romance? etc.

...What love? Up until now, it was friendship. Nothing more, nothing less. They were and are friends. We won't know if their relationship is/would be healthy until it actually happens.

I'm pretty confident in saying it'd be a normal relationship with lots of tsundereism, but that's me.

On topic, are subs out yet? /lazy

[Deathscyther]

Everyone has a different opinion about 'love' There isn't a right answer to questions like 'what is true love' either.

So of course some people wouldn't lable TaigaxRyuuji as love, just as some people wouldn't lable RyuujixMinorin as love. Which one is better, which one is true love? We can't be the judges of that. Outsiders can say what they want, but it's about their feelings in the end.

But that's what make these kind of stories great to watch. Everyone has his/her own opinion about the matter, just like this is the case in real life.

[Kinku]

I think its normal for Ryuuji and Taiga starting to have feeling for each other... they both set out looking for love and slowly thier path about to criss cross with each other.... through good times and bad times they were there for each other in thier search for love. Just like in battle, bonds are created between people and thats how i felt Ryuuji and Taiga relationship was develope through out the show.

[Oberon]

Out of curiosity, when Taiga tried to set up Ryuuji and Minori, does she still operate under the assumption that it's mainly Ryuuji who's interested in Minori, or is she aware that Minori did indeed like Ryuuji back and would have "gone for it" on her own accord?

[Kinku]

i dont think Taiga actually knows Minori has feeling for Ryuuji otherwise it would been easier to hook both them up.

[Oberon]

i dont think Taiga actually knows Minori has feeling for Ryuuji otherwise it would been easier to hook both them up.

Hmm, if that's right then I really hope this will somehow get addressed by the author before the end, otherwise these circumstances, which will then lead to Taiga and Ryuuji finally together, would seem a bit too "railroaded" for my personal tastes.

[Led_Zeppelin]

Out of curiosity, when Taiga tried to set up Ryuuji and Minori, does she still operate under the assumption that it's mainly Ryuuji who's interested in Minori, or is she aware that Minori did indeed like Ryuuji back and would have "gone for it" on her own accord?

In the novels Taiga Believes that Minori love Ryuuji ...

"She believed that Minori was attracted to Ryuuji. She believed that Ryuuji really liked Minori. In other words, their feelings were mutual"

and in the anime she have the same thoughts...

[Oberon]

In the novels Taiga Believes that Minori love Ryuuji ...

"She believed that Minori was attracted to Ryuuji. She believed that Ryuuji really liked Minori. In other words, their feelings were mutual"

and in the anime she have the same thoughts...

Ah, thanks for the clarification.

[typhonsentra]

I don't think she says love. At least according to Roan's translation, she said "Attraction" on Minori's part.

[Waking_Dreamer]

Okay, I havent read the novels but I dont see what the problem here is.

Okay, okay maybe its the guy in me...but why can it go both ways?!

So what if Minori and Ryuuji hook up? How does this seriously change Ryuuji and Taiga's relationship? They'll still be eating dinner at his place, spending time at school, eating the same prepared lunches.

Its not like Taiga dislikes Minori's company either, so why cant she be holding Ryuuji's hand and be taking to them about UFOs while Taiga is poking Ryuuji's face asking why there isnt more meat in her obento...

If you chose not to go melodramatic about it...its hardly the end of the world...

[Vexx]

Aye, a "significant number" of posters would prefer RxT or RxM or RxA (or they dance off into poly or yuri land :) ). I just grimaced at "Large Majority" because that simply isn't known information. No one has done a survey. So asserting anything other than "a significant number" is hyperbole. :) It also doesn't address whether one is speaking of the target audience (domestic japanese fans), western fans, or the overall world audience; especially since the latter two don't officially exist at all :) :) :)

@Waking Dreamer: as a guy... that might make sense but not many real women seem to go for the polygamic solutions. That's just not the kind of future relationship each of these girls will consider. And as I said earlier, these women make their own decisions in this story, a long way off from "what will Ryuuji do? A? B? C?) This isn't a harem game story.... its really kind of hilariously subversive to me that Toradora! was ever sold under a shounen publisher to begin with (maybe seinen/josei or both). The authoress is clearly having a good time with that.

[Kinku]

Okay, I havent read the novels but I dont see what the problem here is.

Okay, okay maybe its the guy in me...but why can it go both ways?!

So what if Minori and Ryuuji hook up? How does this seriously change Ryuuji and Taiga's relationship? They'll still be eating dinner at his place, spending time at school, eating the same prepared lunches.

Its not like Taiga dislikes Minori's company either, so why cant she be holding Ryuuji's hand and be taking to them about UFOs while Taiga is poking Ryuuji's face asking why there isnt more meat in her obento...

If you chose not to go melodramatic about it...its hardly the end of the world...

It would be diffrent if Taiga actually like Ryuuji more than a friend... then it would be a werid triangle relationship. Thats why Minori isnt really going for Ryuuji

[Peanutbutter]

Aye, a "significant number" of posters would prefer RxT or RxM or RxA (or they dance off into poly or yuri land :) ). I just grimaced at "Large Majority" because that simply isn't known information. No one has done a survey. So asserting anything other than "a significant number" is hyperbole. :) It also doesn't address whether one is speaking of the target audience (domestic japanese fans), western fans, or the overall world audience; especially since the latter two don't officially exist at all :) :) :)

That's why we need one. Where is this place? Where are we? Where are the polls? :heh:

[Waking_Dreamer]

@Waking Dreamer: as a guy... that might make sense but not many real women seem to go for the polygamic solutions. That's just not the kind of future relationship each of these girls will consider. And as I said earlier, these women make their own decisions in this story, a long way off from "what will Ryuuji do? A? B? C?) This isn't a harem game story.... its really kind of hilariously subversive to me that Toradora! was ever sold under a shounen publisher to begin with (maybe seinen/josei or both). The authoress is clearly having a good time with that.

Ay okay...maybe I sometimes forget to take off my harem goggles when looking at a situation...still.

So whats going to happen now, is Taiga going to want to have kisses and hugs from Ryuuji? Yes they're more than friends, best of friends even. Though she seemed perfectly fine with the previous situation...being close to Ryuuji, talking about personal stuff and being completely comfortable WHILE not desiring to have him kiss her, or have his arms constantly around her.

Cause if theyre goin to be an official couple but still have the same interaction between each other - minus the presence of Minori...that kind sucks...

[BetoJR]

It would be diffrent if Taiga actually like Ryuuji more than a friend... then it would be a werid triangle relationship. Thats why Minori isnt really going for Ryuuji
Wait... What? Come again? Am I the only one who really did not understand this? :D

[Freya]

Any Ami in this episode btw?

[BetoJR]

Any Ami in this episode btw?
Some nice bits, yeah. Probably not enough, tho. :heh:

[Freya]

Some nice bits, yeah. Probably not enough, tho. :heh:

Ah. :[

AmixRyuuji really not happening. :[

[Darknemo2000]

Waking_Dreamer, it is hard to tell if she actually want to kiss him. Because from what it looks in anime she is more upset that she cannot be the same with him as before, it is more about keeping the status quo rather than kisses or hugs. She wants him to be close to her like before.

One thing is weird that she now recognizes that Ryuuji is the one close to her, yeah we all know that and it is obvious but remember that Taiga just a few episodes ago were saying that Kitamura is always the one right behind her, not Ryuuji so this shift is a little bit unexpected. Since we do not really see her mind shift that much regarding Ryuuji. We do see her falling out of her crush slowly but we do not see her recognizing Ryuuji all that much.

It would make more sense if she would have guessed that Santa Bear is Kitamura rather than Ryuuji as Kitamura is the one who is always right behind her according to her and we don't see her correcting that before the actual Santa Bear stuff (though we all know that it is not true the actual shift is hard to see really).

[PEDOS_GRANDE]

Ryuji wears Omega!

http://randomc.maximum7.net/image/Toradora!/Toradora!%20-%2019%20-%20Large%2007.jpg

lol two push-buttons on an obviously non-chronograph, gg lazy animators!

[Waven]

Ryuji wears Omega!

http://randomc.maximum7.net/image/Toradora!/Toradora!%20-%2019%20-%20Large%2007.jpg

lol two push-buttons on an obviously non-chronograph, gg lazy animators!


But really nice covert advertisement :heh:

[Waking_Dreamer]

Waking_Dreamer, it is hard to tell if she actually want to kiss him. Because from what it looks in anime she is more upset that she cannot be the same with him as before, it is more about keeping the status quo rather than kisses or hugs. She wants him to be close to her like before.


Exactly.

Getting my impressions from the show only, it seems Taiga doesnt want to lose the closeness for Ryuuji but yet doesnt have this burning need to take it to the next step.

Its an expected feeling but of course if she used her head a little she would realise that she is very important to both Minori and Ryuuji. If they did get together it is very unlikely that she would end up the third wheel, Minori and Ryuuji being very selfless people even if given the chance to spend more time together wouldnt shut themselves from the world...especially Taiga. Cant boyfriends and girlfriends also have close friends?

So thats just what I see from the anime...sure being actually in that relationship experiencing all these emotions the situation may seem so serious...but stepping back for a moment...whats the dilemma?

[BetoJR]

...but stepping back for a moment...whats the dilemma?
You two fail to see the hints from as early as the holiday trip - or, even better, from Taiga's botched confession to Kitamura. Taiga has deeper feelings for Takasu than mere friendship. It's all very subtle and her demeanor kind of disguises it - even from herself - but it's still there, if you care to look.

Honestly, why can't the girl like the guy? I mean, even if it's mingled with a baser need for companionship or whatever? Pure dislike for her character? I just don't get it...

[manga852]

You two fail to see the hints from as early as the holiday trip - or, even better, from Taiga's botched confession to Kitamura. Taiga has deeper feelings for Takasu than mere friendship. It's all very subtle and her demeanor kind of disguises it - even from herself - but it's still there, if you care to look.

Honestly, why can't the girl like the guy? I mean, even if it's mingled with a baser need for companionship or whatever? Pure dislike for her character? I just don't get it...

I agree I think she's being in love with Ryuji since episode one and she has been slowly realizing it since the second episode.
But Tsunds are inherently stubborn which is probably why the signs have been so subtle.

[frivolity]

Finally, CoalGuys released the fansub. Now to wait for someone to upload it on CR or Veoh.

[arkxkra]

good episode, not use to it when Taiga in that style, same go to Ryuji, his hairstyle was ... >.<". Kitamura that costume make me speechless, sexy and cute? :heh:.
Quite painful to watch when Taiga finally reliase her feeling and break down. Ryuji also break down, dunno how the impact for him, but next episode look still ok for me.

[germanturkey]

yeah, the hair styles were horrendous this ep... Kitamura's costume made me laugh for like 2 minutes. Taiga breaking down is exactly what i didn't want for this show. they took it in the one direction that i hoped they wouldn't take it from the beginning. but with this ep and the op, its fairly obvious..

The whole time with the bear, i kept hoping and hoping that it wouldn't be Ryuuji... but i was disappointed. Ami should just slap him and move on. he's not worth the trouble.

Minorin was also meh this ep. she took the opposite path from taiga now, and because of that both are diverging away from Ryuuji...

note, my analysis might be off since i'm really tired.. 2am ftl...

[Vexx]

well... you'll have to get mad at the author rather than the anime adapters. They're just working from the novel.

[Master Chibi]

God I seriously cried when Taiga was being spun around by Ryuji and she was just overly joyed at the entire situation. Nothing but pure happiness was emanating from that girl, and it touched my heart to see her smiling and laughing the way she was.

And once again you people are getting upset over the characters of this show acting like normal, breathing human beings who don't entirely know what they really want because being in love will do that to you.

The problem is that you keep sitting outside the fourth wall, where you apparently KNOW how things should turn out, so you start to dismiss things like human behavior. It constantly needs to be brought up, this show is about the JOURNEY not the DESTINATION, which is why it's so unfathomably fantastic and the show I look forward to watching more then any other each week. The middle ground is what makes this show so god damn good.

Stop asking if Ami got screen time.

Stop asking what happened to the comedy.

Stop 'shipping' (god all mighty please stop shipping).

And just accept all of it. Every last bit of it.

You will shit soo many bricks you'll need to buy land to build a house out of them all, because you'll see what you've been missing out on.

[Brizzle]

I dunno if I agree with this. He was pretty much destroyed by Minori's rejection.
Ryuuji collapses at the end because he has a fever. Being out in the cold in a sweaty bear suit will do that.

[holyman282]

This ep was amazing and like what Master Chibi said, the whole story is set out on an unstoppable momentum towards a TaigaXRyuuji end considering the amount of time they spend together. It's as chibi said, it's the journey that matters as everyone can see the chemistry between Taiga and Ryuuji.

On another note, the best scene had to be Taiga realising her feelings for Ryuuji, it was amazing because those two spend so much time together that being together felt natural for them and it's only when one of them thinks they'll lose the other does the true feelings come out. A love so natural that one doesn't realise it until they lose it is the greatest form of affection two person can have for each other, as it's not based off desires or physical attraction but due to being emotionally dependent of each other.

Taiga and Ryuuji deserves to be with each other.

[Vexx]

God I seriously cried when Taiga was being spun around by Ryuji and she was just overly joyed at the entire situation. Nothing but pure happiness was emanating from that girl, and it touched my heart to see her smiling and laughing the way she was.

(argh!!!!)

Okay, now go have a nice lay down and yes, its like being a gaming store manager who has a pack of small creatures in the gaming store saying "Pokemon????" repeatedly as they hope for the next tidbit of Pokemon to appear on the shelf. At some point, you just go insane :) (example courtesy of Dorktower.com (http://www.dorktower.com/))


And to be honest myself... though that's the way the path seems to be going - no matter how it turns out in the end .... there's still lots to see and watch.

[504NOSON]

It's her own damn fault for telling him, "go to Minorin". NOOOW she wants to realize her feelings for him. But I think we all know what Minorin was going to say, when she asked him if he "remembered that summer night when they talked about ghost's and UFO's, etc".

[Freya]

Wow just finished the episode. So good lol. Did bring some tears lol. The bear suit was cute....but freaky at the same time.

Everything was actually perfect except for when Minorin starting talking about UFOs and ghosts....I'm like "wtf.....are you effing serious?" Yeah that part killed the episode for me.....but awesome episode nonetheless!!

[Momosan]

Personally I liked the episode. I never liked Minorin much as a prospect for Ryuuji so the turn of events worked out favorably for me. I was hoping Minorin would tell Ryuuji that she finally saw a UFO (An allusion to seeing Taiga cry out for Ryuuji) but instead she said it'd be better if she never saw them. Oh well, just further reinforces my distaste for her. Nice to see everyone is still quite rabid for a RyuujixAmi finish. I never did think that match would be very realistic. Flat chested women all the way for me.

[Brizzle]

Everything was actually perfect except for when Minorin starting talking about UFOs and ghosts....I'm like "wtf.....are you effing serious?" Yeah that part killed the episode for me.....but awesome episode nonetheless!!
What are you talking about? It makes perfect sense if you'd actually paid attention to what they had said at Ami's Villa during the Summer. It's a recurring metaphor.

Did anyone else notice that when Taiga goes to check on the noise coming from her bedroom she grips Ryuuji's scarf as if to reassure herself?

[Waven]

I realized only just now that a lot of Haruta's weird dream actually became true: Ryuuji in bear costume, (half) naked Kitamura... anything else?

[Arveene]

Wow just finished the episode. So good lol. Did bring some tears lol. The bear suit was cute....but freaky at the same time.

Everything was actually perfect except for when Minorin starting talking about UFOs and ghosts....I'm like "wtf.....are you effing serious?" Yeah that part killed the episode for me.....but awesome episode nonetheless!!

Seems like you didn't get the metaphor then. If you go back and watch it closely with how it relates to the chars you should probably see it.

I really liked this episode, like someone else mentioned earlier the whole scene with Taiga being spun around by Santa was so adorable.

There's still.. 6 more episodes to go, and I can't wait to see how this wraps up. This may easily fall under one of my top 5 of all time.

[Justin Kim]

Subs are out for anyone who has been waiting patiently. They just came out 40min ago for me :D, have fun watching - and yes Darknemo everyone does indeed have their own tastes, I respect that statement, and at the same time the post "^" isn't escalating anything as well.

[ddongbap]

Dang guys, why the hate?!

Doesn't Toradora put you in a good mood?

It sure puts my emo ass in a good mood.

Tiaga's cry makes me sad inside tho.

[hai_san]

The best EP so far for me, the romance section just hits bottom with 3 "rejections" (Taiga->Ryuuji, Ryuuji->Taiga, Minorin->Ryuuji) , it can only goes up for them from now on...

... i hope... well there is still Amy and Kitamura...:heh:

can't wait to see how this all will resolve or even if they will resolve... open ending style or "reset" ending(please no spoiler from the novels ;) )

[NoOneKnowS]

Ami fan/shipper here.

Gawd. Sigh. Seems like there's no other choice but to just swallow everything I just watched. She's still the best of the bunch for me (Minorin is WEIRD, Taiga is.......I don't like loli's), But they need to flush out Taiga's character more other than her being too dependent on Ryuuji though. She'd to be clingy if that happens. Props to Ryuuji if he can take that.

[Justin Kim]

Lol, I just want to clarify that those whom are reading this thread. Feel no sense of hostility when coming here, I think the clarification was made in the above statement. He is right after all, we just sit and watch (to look at our favorite characters of Toradora play out their acts corresponding to their personalities). I mean it's not like we can go into the little picture boxes of our society and change the anime's story line, unless you stalk the mangaka lolol to change your favorite character's outcome.

[physics223]

Here's my own impressions regarding the episode. I hope you'd enjoy reading and comment afterward.

Toradora 19: joy to the world (http://animeotaku.animeblogger.net/2009/02/toradora-19-joy-to-their-world/)

I'm a fan of Ami. Despite Taiga's change, I still like Ami more, although I've already accepted the long-foregone conclusion.

Ultimately, let's just hope for an Amidora ~ After Story. ;)

[Darknemo2000]

Justin Kim, I think it is a big question - what do you think a creation is?

Is creation only a creation when you word to word understand what author meant, or is it a creation when you interpretate based on your own life experience?

In my opinion, creation has to make other to create - to think, to imagine, to interpretate (that's also a creation). Thats why there cannot be two same Toradora's in this world.

Of course, some others would say that it is disrespectful to author - you have to mimic what author said, without trying to think on your own.

Thats why arguments like this arise. I think all of the interpretations be they based on shipping or not, have their own right as it is simply their own creation. Other people may say that it is wrong and that no 'clouded judgments' are allowed, and the only unclouded judgment of the author is right.

Depends on your stance really.

[Verne]

The timing of that song (Saa...Christmas) as he was rejected - lol.

[Bordix]

Ryuuji got rejected (HARD) and I really wanted RyuujixMinorin, oh well~.....
(hmm, I wonder what was inside that gift that was supposed to be for Minorin)

[CaptGloval]

Dang guys, why the hate?!

Doesn't Toradora put you in a good mood?

LOLOL I've voiced out something similar in the Macross forums at the height of the shipping wars over there. I've pointed out how Macross is about music, peace and love (and the mech battles are the antithesis), so all the flaming and hating was just disappointing. What I got was some ridicule and "welcome to teh internets LOL." So yeah. (They say it's called "Concern Trolling" by the way.)

[physics223]

LOLOL I've voiced out something similar in the Macross forums at the height of the shipping wars over there. I've pointed out how Macross is about music, peace and love (and the mech battles are the antithesis), so all the flaming and hating was just disappointing. What I got was some ridicule and "welcome to teh internets LOL." So yeah. (They say it's called "Concern Trolling" by the way.)

Haha, narito rin ako.

Well, people are bound to disagree. It's going to be boring without it.

[SuperKnuckles]

Really liked the episode. But it's the same thing with Toradora all the time with me:

Kitamura/Minorin acts annoying with their two-faced happiness,

Taiga acts insanely moody or moody underneath her exterior,

After like 10 minutes, something genuinely emotional happens.

It's been like that for like 10 straight episodes, I swear. Maybe even more than that.

Anyway, the way Ryuuji pretended as Santa was pretty nice and I nearly had a few teardrops from that scene. Though if you think about it, the way he does it is just very random. So he picks up a suit from someone? And switches suits? HUH?

[asrielchase]

Anyway, the way Ryuuji pretended as Santa was pretty nice and I nearly had a few teardrops from that scene. Though if you think about it, the way he does it is just very random. So he picks up a suit from someone? And switches suits? HUH?

heh I just found out upon rewatch that you see the bear suit in the party @ around 08:00. Nice little detail there.

[CaptGloval]

Haha, narito rin ako.

Well, people are bound to disagree. It's going to be boring without it.

Haha, apir tayo dyan! And yeah, there's always the option to ignore.

Really liked the episode. But it's the same thing with Toradora all the time with me:

Kitamura/Minorin acts annoying with their two-faced happiness,

Taiga acts insanely moody or moody underneath her exterior,

After like 10 minutes, something genuinely emotional happens.

It's been like that for like 10 straight episodes, I swear. Maybe even more than that.

Hm, maybe it's some exercise in empathy. Strangely enough, I consider the the last ten episodes as solid and where things heated up.

[-Sho-]

Just watch this episode :

Wow Christmas was great .
Taiga and Ami was cute , theirs songs too . but Kitamura's clothes :uhoh:
Ryuji was like a yakuza XD (his father :) )

Finally Minorin didn't come in the party .
Poor Ami Ryuji didn't listen what she said before ...

The great part was Santa's part ! It was nice , I though Taiga really believe it was Santa ^^ Ryuji x Taiga moments and Yes , Taiga finally realize who was the one when she can rely on . well now she didn't want to lost Ryuji , it was sad to see her crying and screaming .
Minorin saw her and now understand that Taiga love him . so its why she rejected Ryuji and acting like that , she had the feelings that Taiga feels somethings to Ryuji .

So now we can cross out Minorin x Ryuji , and 6 episodes left also Ami x Ryuji too . Ryuji didn't show interest for her its finish .
With this episode i can agree with Taiga x Ryuji .

Next episode : it seems Taiga will say something to Taiga , she'll bow to him so i think she excuse and move forward so Ryuji is in her mind now . ( its what i think maybe i'm wrong )

For the Santa' suits yeah you saw it in 8:00 mn !

[-Sho-]

God I seriously cried when Taiga was being spun around by Ryuji and she was just overly joyed at the entire situation. Nothing but pure happiness was emanating from that girl, and it touched my heart to see her smiling and laughing the way she was.

And once again you people are getting upset over the characters of this show acting like normal, breathing human beings who don't entirely know what they really want because being in love will do that to you.

The problem is that you keep sitting outside the fourth wall, where you apparently KNOW how things should turn out, so you start to dismiss things like human behavior. It constantly needs to be brought up, this show is about the JOURNEY not the DESTINATION, which is why it's so unfathomably fantastic and the show I look forward to watching more then any other each week. The middle ground is what makes this show so god damn good.

Stop asking if Ami got screen time.

Stop asking what happened to the comedy.

Stop 'shipping' (god all mighty please stop shipping).

And just accept all of it. Every last bit of it.

You will shit soo many bricks you'll need to buy land to build a house out of them all, because you'll see what you've been missing out on.

Yeah you got a point . i agree with you .
We can't change the story except in our dream , the author is the author , its him the god of Toradora .
Just watch and say our opinion , its like that .

[KingOfWorlds]

Watching this episode made me realize Toradora! is jus like True Tears.

Two girls that he has feelings for, and have feelings for him
and One girl who he's obviously not interested in but she has feelings for him.
I dont even know where Kitamaru fits in the picture any more.

I wanted to see Ami and Takasu together because characters like he always end up heartbroken in the end. Taiga and Takasu would be my second choice. I dont really wanna see Kushieda and Takasu together....

Kushieda is just like Noe from True Tears.

The episode was good.... could've been more creative but whatever.

[SuperKnuckles]

heh I just found out upon rewatch that you see the bear suit in the party @ around 08:00. Nice little detail there.

Still, the act of going up to someone and switching suits? How does that work? :heh:

[typhonsentra]

Yay for subs being earlier than expected! Downloading now...

[Nukerjsr]

I just have a few questions to ask anyone that aren't the big discussions of the day....was anyone else annoyed by Ryuuji and Minori?

I'm just freaking sick of Ryuuji falling into this slum of being such an oblivious guy. Taiga was correct when she kicked him out and called him an "indecisive dog" because he really has turned into one at this point. Throughout this entire arc, despite the fact that Taiga changed and he truly saw Taiga happy, he didn't freaking realize it.

Not to mention that along with that, he was so concerned over Minori who didn't even really do anything. She avoided him for most of the arc. And he didn't even take Ami's words of wisdom even though she clearly spelled them out for him. Why can't we see any insight with the man at all? Can we learn more something about his thought process other than the obvious? I wonder if the writer is intentionally doing this to make him look like the guilty one. Because he seems a bit too obsessed with cleanliness, cooking and Inko-chan then the people around him.

With Minori, the ending is what really irritated me. I was expected her to dump Ryuuji, but why in such a happy fashion? She was clearly depressed during the whole arc until the moment at the ending. I don't understand why she wasn't emotional seeing her friend CRYING ON THE STREET. How can she just blow the whole thing off after she was so concerned about her losing friendship? From staying quiet and being in deep thought to suddenly being happy and weird again? It just doesn't follow.

This episode to me was really saved by Taiga. I mean...Kugimiya really put hard work into this because she was just so incredibly likeable and human. I don't think I've ever felt as connected with an anime character just to see her go from sadness to happiness to sadness from the whole thing with Ryuuji in the Santa Suit. It was just amazing.

And I don't care what you guys thought, Kitamura was excellent too. He was funny, I think that since he's skinny, him being "nudist santa" works pretty well. Funniest moment of the episode. Ami was great too just because she showed off her complexity once again. Plus we got to see her sing with Taiga and that was wonderful.

It deserves a solid 9. It was really great but the flaws just became too glaring.

[BetoJR]

I'd think Minorin's development isn't really ended, yet.
Just because we don't see her suffering with her decision, doesn't mean she's not. Unless one needs everything perfectly spelled out, that is. :heh:

Her genki behavior while dispatching Ryuji's hopes was a pretty well-built facade, unlike her normal upbeat persona, IMHO.

[SuperKnuckles]

Considering how easily Ryuji takes to the face of the situations, it's pretty easy to deceive him though. Out of all the characters, he's seriously the most rock-headed of them all. No doubt he'll take the whole 'being turned down' thing too literally next episode.

[nor4d]

After reading ALL of your comments i guess its way to emotional for me. I mean the characters, im a huge fan of Toradora but wont you think they're to perfect with own feelings? When i ended up watching this i thought... gosh, my girlfriend should look for someone better, i wont take-on a bear costume, wont run out without shoes in winter and wont shout my love's name...

God its almost like one of you said before. "Its way beyond perfect", this anime really shows me why i still like to watch it, even if im 22year old working student.

Ep 20 was perfect, just like the others before. I guess some of you are right with the opinion but its kinda hard to make discuss with all of you on the topic.

What will happen next? No matter what, it would be still the best of the best.

[Kafriel]

9, Ryuuji's new hairdo is awesome, if only he'd get his dad's shades, he'd be even cooler :)
It was fun to watch, until the final few minutes where Minori had to kick in...her rejecting Ryuuji doesn't mean the story's over, it's just getting started. I predict a lot of Minori drama coming up unless Taiga starts going out with Ryuuji...although that would get Minori totally out of the picture.
P.S: I really expected a happy christmas eve and all of them meeting at the party, turns out I was totally off:P

[Liddo-kun]

It's Christmas on February!! http://www.thebenevolent.net/imghost/files/dw2ukhc9cai46qbht0ph.gif (http://www.thebenevolent.net/imghost/)

A lot of character devolopment for Taiga on this episode, she really played the part of a good girl. Singing for the entire class, making the orphans happy and she even tried to give Minori as Christmas present for Ryuuji!!

Ryuuji played a good part too, so thoughtful to come to taiga and grant her wish of seeing Santa.

And lastly, Minori did something that's admirable... she had the strength to give back Ryuuji to Taiga. She's a true friend indeed.

[Waking_Dreamer]

With Minori, the ending is what really irritated me. I was expected her to dump Ryuuji, but why in such a happy fashion? She was clearly depressed during the whole arc until the moment at the ending. I don't understand why she wasn't emotional seeing her friend CRYING ON THE STREET. How can she just blow the whole thing off after she was so concerned about her losing friendship? From staying quiet and being in deep thought to suddenly being happy and weird again? It just doesn't follow.


I think your missing something here.

Minori, in any of those scenes was not happy at all...

It killed her inside to reject Ryuuji but she didnt want to let on that she was doing it for Taiga's sake. The whole reason she covered her eyes was because tears were building up inside them and couldnt bear to look Ryuuji for she might breakdown too.

Not everyone can express their feelings in so hyper-emotional way like Taiga. Thats why she didnt go to comfort her crying on the street either (I assume)...the reason Taiga was crying was because she was going to lose Ryuuji to Minori.

How would she feel if Taiga saw Minori then? Is Taiga suppose to tell her best friend not to go out with Ryuuji, even though she knows he likes Minori.

Its similar to the Student Council President rejecting Kitamura. In her heart she did like him a lot but rejected him for what she thought would be his benefit. Like she said, not everyone can have the luxury of being an idiot who only knows how to move forward...or something along those lines.

Good ep, but annoys me how Minori and Ami just got totally shafted...

[xxfate13]

Still, the act of going up to someone and switching suits? How does that work? :heh:

maybe the guy wearing the bear suit was terrified of Ryuuji, especially the way he looked right? ahaha.. so he just agreed with the idea of giving the suit than getting hurt... :heh:

[Kafriel]

Still, the act of going up to someone and switching suits? How does that work?
Or maybe a black tux is somewhat more expensive than a bear suit? Just saying :heh:

[BetoJR]

maybe the guy wearing the bear suit was terrified of Ryuuji, especially the way he looked right? ahaha.. so he just agreed with the idea of giving the suit than getting hurt... :heh:
Now, that was a scene that would have been funny to see, here. :D

[Lexich]

Well, you see, Ruuji's delinquent reputation has not completely weared off. Plus he is in a suit, with heavy watches and put-back hair - absolutely yakuza looking. Would you say no to such a gut politely asking you to change suits with him?

[Nukerjsr]

I think your missing something here.

Minori, in any of those scenes was not happy at all...

It killed her inside to reject Ryuuji but she didnt want to let on that she was doing it for Taiga's sake. The whole reason she covered her eyes was because tears were building up inside them and couldnt bear to look Ryuuji for she might breakdown too.

Not everyone can express their feelings in so hyper-emotional way like Taiga. Thats why she didnt go to comfort her crying on the street either (I assume)...the reason Taiga was crying was because she was going to lose Ryuuji to Minori.

How would she feel if Taiga saw Minori then? Is Taiga suppose to tell her best friend not to go out with Ryuuji, even though she knows he likes Minori.

Its similar to the Student Council President rejecting Kitamura. In her heart she did like him a lot but rejected him for what she thought would be his benefit. Like she said, not everyone can have the luxury of being an idiot who only knows how to move forward...or something along those lines.

Good ep, but annoys me how Minori and Ami just got totally shafted...

Well I get what you are saying, but I feel like Minori isn't looking at this the right with her relationship with Ryuuji. When she was sad this whole arc, it feels a bit odd that she acted happy during the break up. (Note, that's what I am only refering to with her being happy. The break up scene) If she was so concerned about keeping her friendship alive, then wouldn't she want to be a bit more serious with Ryuuji? To show that she really had to think hard about this whole thing? Saying to a boy who cared from you from the start: "Hey, I don't love you back." That just feels like a real friendship breaker.

And with that thing with what Sumire said...yeah, it's true. But I really don't like that with the series. It's making all of the women appear as truly creative, intellectual and realistic characters while the men are just rock-headed morons with little thoughts of their own. Especially with Ryuuji since he's in the middle of it all and he's been hanging out with these girls for months.

[Waking_Dreamer]

Well I get what you are saying, but I feel like Minori isn't looking at this the right with her relationship with Ryuuji. When she was sad this whole arc, it feels a bit odd that she acted happy during the break up. (Note, that's what I am only refering to with her being happy. The break up scene) If she was so concerned about keeping her friendship alive, then wouldn't she want to be a bit more serious with Ryuuji? To show that she really had to think hard about this whole thing? Saying to a boy who cared from you from the start: "Hey, I don't love you back." That just feels like a real friendship breaker.


Well similar reasons to the student council president not outrightly saying NO to Kitamura. They would be lying and it hurt too much already to stare them in the eye and and say no with a straight face.

Im not exactly sure what your asking though. Are you saying she should have rejected Ruuji more sternly? Or after rejecting him...try to comfort him as to preserve the friendship? Isnt that too much?

Personally Minori and Ami have sacrificed so much already, I dont know how much more selfless can people want them to be, in regards to the Ruuji relationship at least.

[Kafriel]

Well I get what you are saying, but I feel like Minori isn't looking at this the right with her relationship with Ryuuji. When she was sad this whole arc, it feels a bit odd that she acted happy during the break up. (Note, that's what I am only refering to with her being happy. The break up scene) If she was so concerned about keeping her friendship alive, then wouldn't she want to be a bit more serious with Ryuuji? To show that she really had to think hard about this whole thing? Saying to a boy who cared from you from the start: "Hey, I don't love you back." That just feels like a real friendship breaker.

Throughout the entire series Minori is my least favoured character, one would expect her to go to the party,make up with Ryuuji and then have a fight with Taiga, but instead she turns Ryuuji down,making him feel bad, while she's feeling bad as well, and then making Taiga feel bad because Minori hurt Ryuuji's feelings...I mean, at some point she'd have to stop making the wrong choices,don't you think?
And with that thing with what Sumire said...yeah, it's true. But I really don't like that with the series. It's making all of the women appear as truly creative, intellectual and realistic characters while the men are just rock-headed morons with little thoughts of their own. Especially with Ryuuji since he's in the middle of it all and he's been hanging out with these girls for months.
The guys are not given much choice here, and the few times they got something to say or do, it's easily forgotten on the next episode...ah well, that's life, can't focus on all characters at the same time :P

Are you saying she should have rejected Ruuji more sternly? Or after rejecting him...try to comfort him as to preserve the friendship? Isnt that too much?
If she had feelings for Ryuuji she should have told him so after the summer party, before he and Taiga started bonding too much. She lost that chance, and claimed it back at a wrong time, that's all.

[typhonsentra]

Well I get what you are saying, but I feel like Minori isn't looking at this the right with her relationship with Ryuuji. When she was sad this whole arc, it feels a bit odd that she acted happy during the break up. (Note, that's what I am only refering to with her being happy. The break up scene) If she was so concerned about keeping her friendship alive, then wouldn't she want to be a bit more serious with Ryuuji? To show that she really had to think hard about this whole thing? Saying to a boy who cared from you from the start: "Hey, I don't love you back." That just feels like a real friendship breaker.

Read between the lines, she couldn't even look him in the eyes the entire time. She acted the way she did because she didn't want him to see how hard it was for her to reject him, why do you think she pulled the cap over her eyes at the end? I also don't think she was concerned with being his friend after this when she did this, she'll probably feel guilty later in the story but this was all for Taiga. To help Taiga she knew she had to hurt him.

[Led_Zeppelin]

Well similar reasons to the student council president not outrightly saying NO to Kitamura. They would be lying and it hurt too much already to stare them in the eye and and say no with a straight face.

Im not exactly sure what your asking though. Are you saying she should have rejected Ruuji more sternly? Or after rejecting him...try to comfort him as to preserve the friendship? Isnt that too much?

Personally Minori and Ami have sacrificed so much already, I dont know how much more selfless can people want them to be, in regards to the Ruuji relationship at least.

I agree, Minori already is in pain to say no to Ryuuji...

I think she like Sumire, Can't Lie, but she do it, just becouse she thinks is the right thing to do...

Becouse if she go Foward, not caring of the rest, she'll bring more pain, especially to Taiga, and she (like sumire) decided that she will carry the burden of that Croux...

She can't be happy in that part...

[Nosauz]

From my pov, i feel like many of the characters continue to sacrifice, and in the end you get a taiga x ryuji ending which is not bad, but the way its achieved is pretty brutal. If two people's happiness costs five other people theirs I would opt to not have that happiness. Honestly its really painful watching minorin, and ami continue to just sit and mope, ami not so much because her character is made that way, but minorin, its just like seeing the shell of a person. I don't claim to understand love, but I want to say that if love is this painful to obtain, is it worth sacrificing your friends happiness for your own sake? Yea the rejection scene was painful to watch, I could tell minorin was hurting bad, even with that waffly smile. Why are these damn characters masochists?

[Nukerjsr]

Well similar reasons to the student council president not outrightly saying NO to Kitamura. They would be lying and it hurt too much already to stare them in the eye and and say no with a straight face.

Im not exactly sure what your asking though. Are you saying she should have rejected Ruuji more sternly? Or after rejecting him...try to comfort him as to preserve the friendship? Isnt that too much?

Personally Minori and Ami have sacrificed so much already, I dont know how much more selfless can people want them to be, in regards to the Ruuji relationship at least.

Maybe not sternly, emotionally. Like, she should still show care for Ryuuji throughout this whole thing. We know that Taiga is the reason she isn't going to hook up with Ryuuji, but shouldn't Ryuuji's feelings be put into play? Shouldn't she say something along the lines like "Hey, I don't want to be with you but I still really care for you." After all, they are supposed to be friends. I don't want this characters to grow isolated.

Read between the lines, she couldn't even look him in the eyes the entire time. She acted the way she did because she didn't want him to see how hard it was for her to reject him, why do you think she pulled the cap over her eyes at the end? I also don't think she was concerned with being his friend after this when she did this, she'll probably feel guilty later in the story but this was all for Taiga. To help Taiga she knew she had to hurt him.

Granted, she did have to hurt him to get the message across, but it was just executed in a bad manner (imo). The emotional shift she has where she acts happy during that ONE scene and was depressed the entire time feels awkward. It feels like the way that Minori pulled it off that she almost gave the impression like she never cared. I always felt like Minori DID want to be Ryuuji's friend because she was the kind of person who thrived off other people's happiness. Especially if that involves making your friend's lovers feel comfortable too.

I think part of that just applies to how Ryuuji takes it. I mean, he doesn't get ANY of the little hints and pieces of advices given to him. Yet Minori says that she doesn't want to find ghosts and aliens and he suddenly gets it.

The whole episode makes both characters just look really bad.

[BetoJR]

In Minorin's defense, she was pretty shook up after seeing Taiga in that state. She is her best friend, after all. And she was actually shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that her best friend cared way more for Ryuji than anyone could have thought. That's quite a lot to have on your shoulders...

[typhonsentra]

I just don't understand what you mean by happy. Where are you getting the idea she was acting happy from?

[Nosauz]

well hey, male leads in general are pretty useless, ba da pa! thank you everyone I'll be back stage signing auto graphs, oh wait they actually are. Unfortunately this type of man might actually exist, though I highly doubt he'll ever procreate in the a in vivo situation. At first Ryuuji is billed as your typical male student, except as the show progresses he turns into the biggest bitch ever, he's indecisive, and unreliable, it just makes sense that he wouldn't chase after minorin. Why because he's an idiot. Though this was a contrived situation, it feel ooc for him to acutally get what Minorin says, because he basically ignores all the attraction between the two of them, and suddenly his thick skull is able to interpret the rejection, come on.

[Nukerjsr]

I believe that while she did need to break off with Ryuuji, she doesn't exactly understand that how the break up scenario is going to affect Ryuuji.

If she wants to make Taiga happy, then shouldn't she want to take this whole thing in a different direction? The way she pulled it off could leave Ryuuji in a multiple set of attitudes from having a breakdown like with Taiga or being depressed. And while yes, we do not know what would of happened from a serious confession, I believe it would of been better if she done it that way. I can understand the breakup would be hard but changing to the facade during this incredibly emotional moment feels unnecessary.

[animeboy009]

hey just wanted to say, this was a good ep :) liked it....and that in the end when you see all the chs. and what they are doing at the end, with ami's scene, i think the person behind her looks like he has ryuji's suit (22:04) maybe the one he exchange the bear suit for?

[Kafriel]

well hey, male leads in general are pretty useless, ba da pa! thank you everyone I'll be back stage signing auto graphs, oh wait they actually are. Unfortunately this type of man might actually exist, though I highly doubt he'll ever procreate in the a in vivo situation. At first Ryuuji is billed as your typical male student, except as the show progresses he turns into the biggest bitch ever, he's indecisive, and unreliable, it just makes sense that he wouldn't chase after minorin. Why because he's an idiot. Though this was a contrived situation, it feel ooc for him to actually get what Minorin says, because he basically ignores all the attraction between the two of them, and suddenly his thick skull is able to interpret the rejection, come on.

In hindsight, Ryuuji didn't really want to go get Minori, he wanted to stay with Taiga...so maybe his not chasing after Minori means he's over his crush (in which case they could somehow reconcile later on) and realized he likes Taiga more :)

[Nukerjsr]

well hey, male leads in general are pretty useless, ba da pa! thank you everyone I'll be back stage signing auto graphs, oh wait they actually are. Unfortunately this type of man might actually exist, though I highly doubt he'll ever procreate in the a in vivo situation. At first Ryuuji is billed as your typical male student, except as the show progresses he turns into the biggest bitch ever, he's indecisive, and unreliable, it just makes sense that he wouldn't chase after minorin. Why because he's an idiot. Though this was a contrived situation, it feel ooc for him to acutally get what Minorin says, because he basically ignores all the attraction between the two of them, and suddenly his thick skull is able to interpret the rejection, come on.

Actually, Ryuuji is GOOD compared to most harem lead males. I just find it a shame because he started out well and had a manly climax...but now he's starting to fall into the train as the other the male leaders where they become oblivious and kind of become an afterthought compared to the girls of the show.

[typhonsentra]

In hindsight, Ryuuji didn't really want to go get Minori, he wanted to stay with Taiga...so maybe his not chasing after Minori means he's over his crush (in which case they could somehow reconcile later on) and realized he likes Taiga more :)

If he was over his crush he wouldn't of taken the rejection as hard as he did.

[Kafriel]

If he was over his crush he wouldn't of taken the rejection as hard as he did.

He seems more confused to me than crushed...guess we'll find out in the next episode^^

[puppygod]

From my pov, i feel like many of the characters continue to sacrifice, and in the end you get a taiga x ryuji ending which is not bad, but the way its achieved is pretty brutal. If two people's happiness costs five other people theirs I would opt to not have that happiness.

What five? I see Minori and maybe Ami... That's two. Who else?

[Kafriel]

What five? I see Minori and maybe Ami... That's two. Who else?

All the Taiga fans at school :heh: nah just kidding,take it as a manner of speech, 2=5.

[Waking_Dreamer]

Maybe not sternly, emotionally. Like, she should still show care for Ryuuji throughout this whole thing. We know that Taiga is the reason she isn't going to hook up with Ryuuji, but shouldn't Ryuuji's feelings be put into play? Shouldn't she say something along the lines like "Hey, I don't want to be with you but I still really care for you." After all, they are supposed to be friends. I don't want this characters to grow isolated.


I think youre asking a bit too much. I mean why is it all this responsibility being put on Minori? Why is it that Ryuuji needs to look after Taiga while Minori has to look after them BOTH?

Ami got it right...why are they playing house...cause in the end its put them in this situation...


Granted, she did have to hurt him to get the message across, but it was just executed in a bad manner (imo). The emotional shift she has where she acts happy during that ONE scene and was depressed the entire time feels awkward. It feels like the way that Minori pulled it off that she almost gave the impression like she never cared. I always felt like Minori DID want to be Ryuuji's friend because she was the kind of person who thrived off other people's happiness. Especially if that involves making your friend's lovers feel comfortable too.

I think part of that just applies to how Ryuuji takes it. I mean, he doesn't get ANY of the little hints and pieces of advices given to him. Yet Minori says that she doesn't want to find ghosts and aliens and he suddenly gets it.

The whole episode makes both characters just look really bad.

Too much. Too much expectations for one person....

What relationship did they have when she talked to Ryuuji about UFOs/Ghosts so long ago..friends right? As friends she told him she didnt want a boyfriend...in a very Minori way. The whole UFOs conversation has only ever been between him and her. To them it is personal...therefore it means something.

Anyway, when does it ever help when someone says, I dont love you anymore but we can still be friends... I mean seriously it doesnt change the magnitude of your heart break at all...

Think about it, everything revolves around Taiga...Ryuuji puts her happiness as first priority and so does Minori at great hurt to herself - yet she's still getting flack because she not doing enough or making so many mistakes.

Im surprised no ones even slightly pissed off that Taiga is off chasing make believe Santas contemplating how she will always be alone - when in fact she has real guardian angels like Minori and Ryuuji putting their happiness aside for her sake.

oh but lets poke at Minori because she making people feel sad...LMAO :twitch:

Im just saying...thats another way to look at it... ;) :rolleyes:

EDIT: I dont hate Taiga...but like Nosauz said there is so much sacrifice for a TaigaxRyuuji end. The other characters are treated pretty bad and people go, oh Taiga's crying..

[nor4d]

He seems more confused to me than crushed...
The last second Takasus's standing does not look like confused to me either ;)

What five? I see Minori and maybe Ami... That's two. Who else?
I can count more. Look deeply.

[Nukerjsr]

I think youre asking a bit too much. I mean why is it all this responsibility being put on Minori? Why is it that Ryuuji needs to look after Taiga while Minori has to look after them BOTH?

Ami got it right...why are they playing house...cause in the end its put them in this situation...

Minori chose to go through with the whole scenario of breaking up with Ryuuji, I just believe that she should of taken Ryuuji's feelings into consideration because those same feelings are going to directly affect his future relationship with Taiga. The way I see it is that Ryuuji's and Taiga's happiness are linked.

Too much. Too much expectations for one person....

What relationship did they have when she talked to Ryuuji about UFOs/Ghosts so long ago..friends right?

As friends she told him she didnt want a boyfriend...in a very Minori way. The whole UFOs conversation has only ever been between him and her. To them it is personal...therefore it means something.

Anyway, when does it ever help when someone says, I dont love you anymore but we can still be friends... I mean seriously it doesnt change the magnitude of your heart break at all...

Think about it, everything revolves around Taiga...Ryuuji puts her happiness as first priority and so does Minori at great hurt to herself - yet she's still getting flack because she not doing enough or making so many mistakes.

Im surprised no ones even slightly pissed off that Taiga is off chasing make believe Santas contemplating how she will always be alone - when in fact she has real guardian angels like Minori and Ryuuji putting their happiness aside for her sake.

oh but lets poke at Minori because she making people feel sad...LMAO :twitch:

Im just saying...thats another way to look at it... ;) :rolleyes:

The thing I don't like about the scene is how Minori has to tell Ryuuji all of this in her "Minorin" way. In the beach-house it made sense, but in this particular moment it doesn't.

I think the subtlety of it could of worked if Ryuuji DID NOT figure it out. But he did, which contradicts how he didn't pick up every other piece of subtlety in this episode.

I honestly believed that if she broke up with him in a serious way, then it would of been a much gentler blow. I just believe that the way this break off was performed is completely going to change the the Ryuuji/Taiga/Minori atmosphere by shoving all of the pressure onto Ryuuji.

I'm more of concerned how this whole thing is going to be played off because Ryuuji's character has been treated like CRAP during this whole arc and it feels like it's going to rub off on the rest of the series. Taiga isn't the center of this whole thing, even though she's been treated like it. It would of been nice to see a little bit of Minori/Ryuuji development before the break up so that there's some mutual understanding.

[nor4d]

I honestly believed that if she broke up with him in a serious way, then it would of been a much gentler blow. I just believe that the way this break off was performed is completely going to change the the Ryuuji/Taiga/Minori atmosphere by shoving all of the pressure onto Ryuuji.
This atmosphere was boiling for some time before it happend i guess. Look before when Minori told about not talking with Ryuuji to much last times. It will be hard, especially when heard the Ryuuji talked about hearing Minori's voice. (last seconds of 19ep) That means ONLY that he really love her and probably that Taiga wont tell him anything about last night. Maybe she knew that Minori rejected Takasu before she told him about her feelings. Who knows..

But what i surelly agree is the part about the pressure... Unfortunately it goes to Ryuuji mainly now.

I'm more of concerned how this whole thing is going to be played off because Ryuuji's character has been treated like CRAP during this whole arc and it feels like it's going to rub off on the rest of the series. Taiga isn't the center of this whole thing, even though she's been treated like it. It would of been nice to see a little bit of Minori/Ryuuji development before the break up so that there's some mutual understanding.
Agree.
But what he could do? I hope he will find a better way that i can imagine.

[noobita]

Pretty nice episode.

Taiga is trying her hardest to supress those feeling yet, it the end, her heart unable to supressed it any long and she crying unconsciously ....A very nice scene IMO.

and Kitamura, The man know no shame..and I have to respect him for being that.

and It seem Ryuji care Taiga more than his own affair in the end.

[Caster13]

The best laid plans and all that.

I'm going to resonate what Vexx said earlier about timing and chance. Throughout the series, it seems nobody gets together like they expect to. Trying to come up with a mastermind plan to hook up Ryuuji and Minorin is a sure fire way to doom yourself from the start.

Even the simplest of plans such as sticking around at a party and waiting for Minorin to show up gets messed up when Ryuuji suddenly can't bear (<_<) the thought of Taiga being alone.

The saddest thing, though, is that Taiga tried so hard. She put all of her effort into the Christmas party to create the perfect place for Ryuuji and Minorin to meet one another. And the wrench that brings the gears to a screeching halt is her own feelings.

There's only one thing to do after the machinations crumble though: see what's still standing and rebuild from there.

[Led_Zeppelin]

The saddest thing, though, is that Taiga tried so hard. She put all of her effort into the Christmas party to create the perfect place for Ryuuji and Minorin to meet one another

I think that Taiga make a situation so perfect, that she realices the things that are coming, Ryuuji and Minori becoming boyfriends, she will no longer can be to ryuuji side, and that she don't want to leave his side, and she stop repressing her own fellings for Ryuuji...

[LoweGear]

Freight and shipping asides...

I really haven't felt this WAFFY about a Christmas-themed episode since I saw the 5-episode AMG OVA almost a decade ago. Think it was when Ami and Taiga sang that Christmas song that made me incredibly warm and fuzzy inside...

Damn, I want that song RIGHT NOW :eyespin:

Also, I don't get how anyone can say Ami got shafted, when she gets an entire 3 minutes in the spotlight singing an insert song with Taiga. There are worse cases of shafting out there >_>

[Traece]

I thought it was a pretty cute episode. We got to see a surprise singing duo at the Christmas party, and there was a very adorable moment between Ryuuji and Taiga. Plus, it was also nice to see Taiga beginning to both realize and admit her feelings for Ryuuji to herself. Minorin was under the suspicion that Taiga was in love with Ryuuji and it kept her away, but in the end it seems her misunderstandings weren't so misunderstood.

It's a bit of a sad thing though. Minorin not getting what she wants isn't 'too' bad, I'm sure she'll get over it if Taiga is happy. She's not much for selfishness it seems. Ami though, well Ami is going to miss out. I feel a bit bad for her, but she's a good sport for sending Ryuuji along to Taiga's side to help her out and be with her (at least for a little while). On the happy side though, Kihara is free to date Kitamura full with all his glorious nudity (Eek...).

I'm surprised people are putting blame on people for this situation. Nobody is really to blame, it was a team effort. Taiga left to be alone, being scared that Minorin and Ryuuji becoming a couple would leave her out of the loop (and she's not entirely wrong to think that either people, it does happen). Ami in a way sent Ryuuji off to be there for Taiga. Most importantly, Minorin falsely suspected Taiga loving Ryuuji (as I said before) and thus avoided him, then found out she really was in love with him (although Taiga may not realize it herself quite yet). Ryuuji is just sort of along for the ride, he's the one being pushed around and lead in to all this stuff, and in the end he prioritized his very special friendship over a chance to be with a girl he's in love with for some odd reason. I'd rather make my friends feel better, and then seek love. Better than seeking love and leaving your friends to their own sad ways.

[physics223]

I never thought Taiga was selfish in the entire matter. It was just happenstance that Minori saw her break down at the exact moment she was going toward Ryuuji and so quickly changed her mind with great hurt to herself. That's why she didn't want to see Ryuuji. She didn't want to break down in front of him, because she also doesn't want to inflict pain on Ryuuji and Taiga. She put her friendship above her love, because I'm pretty sure she was holding back primarily because of Taiga.

These are two friends who care for one another deeply enough that they are willing to sacrifice at great harm to themselves for the sake of their friends. It's just sad that it's becoming a vicious circle.

[Nosauz]

I think my main problem with the show overall is that ZnT keeps on popping into my head. Though Ryuuji was more of man than Saito in the end I just feel like he doesn't add up to Saito, because atleast Saito is steadfast. The reason I bring up ZnT is because man Loiuse and Taiga are exactly the same, so it feels kinda like deja vu, Rie is great and all but when she plays the same character in two different animes its hard to separate the two. Plus Ryuuji is completely unreliable in the last couple of episodes. It fine to ride along, but Ryuuji does literally nothing, absolutely nothing to resolve the tension between him and minori, hes lazy and selfish, expecting the girls to come running to him, he has no say whats so ever in the situation, which makes me even more mad, he has a right to choose and the way the episode played out, its like hes a mindless drone.

[Kafriel]

It fine to ride along, but Ryuuji does literally nothing, absolutely nothing to resolve the tension between him and minori, hes lazy and selfish, expecting the girls to come running to him, he has no say whats so ever in the situation, which makes me even more mad, he has a right to choose and the way the episode played out, its like hes a mindless drone.

He's the one spamming Minori's phone though, he told her to come to the party over and over (and in the end she didn't) and he prevented Taiga's depression by dressing up as bear-santa (although she ended up crying...)

[nor4d]

and Kitamura, The man know no shame..and I have to respect him for being that.

He is quite a strange guy wont you think? He can say "I love you" in the middle of the whole class, lay down on the floor before Taiga, walk totally naked before girls [Ami's house ep] or just like here, standing half-naked before audience :)

Yes, in some way i respect him very much.

[LoweGear]

I just feel like he doesn't add up to Saito, because atleast Saito is steadfast.

Saito's the one getting turned on at the sight of any large boobs or exposed skin by any female... as awesome as Saito is, I'd say Takasu is more steadfast.

The reason I bring up ZnT is because man Loiuse and Taiga are exactly the same, so it feels kinda like deja vu, Rie is great and all but when she plays the same character in two different animes its hard to separate the two.

How exactly are they alike? Sure the "Rie tsundere" stereotype manifested itself at times, but quite unlike Louise, Taiga doesn't beat up Ryuuji at the first opportunity just because he looks the wrong way, and Taiga is more honest and more aware of her treatment of Ryuuji than Louise has ever been of Saito (when has Louise ever apologized for being stubborn, like Taiga has?).

There are similarities because afterall one can't avoid stereotyping, but saying that Taiga and Louise are the same characters is rather insulting to both of them.

he has a right to choose and the way the episode played out, its like hes a mindless drone.

As already mentioned, Ryuuji had been actively working to get Minorin on his good side, not exactly perfect in execution, but at least he does. And is it his fault that Taiga actually wants to help him? And Ryuuji fainting from Minorin's words this episode indicate that in his conscious mind, he was ready to choose Minori - it was just unfortunate that he was never even given a chance to say it.

[CaptGloval]

Now to settle that issue why Ryuuji understood Minorin's metaphor of "ghosts and UFOs" but unable to figure out Ami's not-so-subtle hints...

It's simple really, aside from the "ghosts and UFOs" being established as some personal code between Minori and Ryuuji from back in the summer vacation, Minori started her little rejection speech by making Ryuuji remember that conversation they had at the villa. Actually, I had expected him to get the metaphor and the rejection message right away, but there was actually a few seconds lag before he fully figured it out. At which point, Minori had dashed away and all he can do was collapse. Possibly the delay was due to his confused state that persisted throughout the arc.

Now, the subtlety in Ami's hints to Ryuuji had been diminishing throughout the arc, IMHO. The things she said at the party must've been the most blatant Ami could go before she starts telling him the situation as she sees it in plain words. Yet Ryuuji couldn't figure it out. I think it was because Ami had been laying hints heavily and suddenly onto Ryuuji. The father-mother-daughter thing? That came out of nowhere for Ryuuji. And of course the confused funk Ryuuji had been all along had prevented him from being introspective.

[Molenir]

Such a sad episode for all the parties. Taiga finally realizing just how much Ryuuji means to her, just as she is about to give him away. Minori who loves Taiga enough to close off her own feelings for Ryuuji, Ami who despite being obvious to Ryuuji, still can't seem to break through to him. And Ryuuji who finally gets a chance with Minori only to have her reject him before he even has a chance to confess.

Happy and fun moments, with the bird, and Taiga dancing with the bear. But so sad too. Forget Toradora, they shoulda called the show Train Wreck instead.

[LoweGear]

I really don't understand how an episode like this can get the oft-abused and poorly-understood term "Train Wreck"...

[Maciste]

Somehow, after watching episode 19, I'm convinced that even Taiga realized Ryuuji placing her before Minorin /even if Ryujji is not "fully" aware of it atm).
Ryujji: "I've already changed my clothes and I don't want to leave you by yourself". Tells a lot, imo.
She literally had to force him out of her home with sentences like "If you don't go, I'd have lied to Minorin.", "Getting Minorin to go to the party is my real present for you. So please, accept it."
Do it for my sake and he does.
Ryuuji acts subconsciously and Taiga already noticed subconsciously. In the end, she completely realized it while Ryuuji still remains dull.
Don't start a bichfight, that's just my 2 cents and maybe spawns a convo, other opinons on that matter. Thanks.

[Nukerjsr]

Somehow, after watching episode 19, I'm convinced that even Taiga realized Ryuuji placing her before Minorin /even if Ryujji is not "fully" aware of it atm).
Ryujji: "I've already changed my clothes and I don't want to leave you by yourself". Tells a lot, imo.
She literally had to force him out of her home with sentences like "If you don't go, I'd have lied to Minorin.", "Getting Minorin to go to the party is my real present for you. So please, accept it."
Do it for my sake and he does.
Ryuuji acts subconsciously and Taiga already noticed subconsciously. In the end, she completely realized it while Ryuuji still remains dull.
Don't start a bichfight, that's just my 2 cents and maybe spawns a convo, other opinons on that matter. Thanks.

No no, you are completely right.

We just all fear something. I personally fear that Ryuuji's character will completely decay and the three girls in the series will sink into depression for the next couple of episodes.

[Miles Teg]

I really don't understand how an episode like this can get the oft-abused and poorly-understood term "Train Wreck"...

From what I have seen from different blog/forum most people use the term "Train Wreck" to simply say that the episode/series don't follow their expectation (ie for AmixRyuuji shipper this episode is a "Train Wreck"...) So this expression has already lost absolutely all of it's value, it's sad but it's like that.

I have read the comment of someone calling the episode a "Train Wreck" because he was feeling sad after watching the episode :heh:

[Vexx]

Yeah you got a point . i agree with you .
We can't change the story except in our dream , the author is the author , its him the god of Toradora .
Just watch and say our opinion , its like that .
The author is a "HER" ... and despite the category of the publisher, she really isn't writing a "shounen" title .... it seems more seinen or even josei. Within that lies some of the problem for some viewers who arrive expecting a boy-focused 'harem choice' story and instead get something more like "Honey&Clover" or "Hataraki Man". For some, it is expanding - for others, it seems like they're outside their comfort zone.

[Kafriel]

I actually expected the guy to fall in love with all the girls instead of the opposite happening, I don't complain as a good episode always tastes best with a heavy dose of surprises :)

[Melchizadek]

I think being rejected by Minorin is going to cause Ryuuji to do a lot of looking at himself and the people around him in the next few episodes. Hopefully, he'll finally notice all those things he keeps missing. I, for one, am looking forward to seeing some character development from him.

[PNGO]

I'm hoping for a random ending and would hate to see a Ryujji X Taiga ending, but this show obviously will end up like that.

[Darknemo2000]

How exactly are they alike? Sure the "Rie tsundere" stereotype manifested itself at times, but quite unlike Louise, Taiga doesn't beat up Ryuuji at the first opportunity just because he looks the wrong way, and Taiga is more honest and more aware of her treatment of Ryuuji than Louise has ever been of Saito (when has Louise ever apologized for being stubborn, like Taiga has?).

There are similarities because afterall one can't avoid stereotyping, but saying that Taiga and Louise are the same characters is rather insulting to both of them.

Maybe he had in mind ZnT novels?

In novels as you know Louise and taiga are actually similar as they both develop, but anime treats them differently. In anime Taiga still gets her development while ZnT anime cares mostly for fanservice and skips most of development away, thus leaving Louise pretty much the same as she was in the beginning.

So yeah, talking about novels Louise and Taiga ARE similar. Talking about anime - no way. They are way too different juts like different is novel Louise from anime Louise.

[Kaisos Erranon]

Geh, this is why I don't read the novels beforehand, it colors my perceptions...


Really thought the ending could have been better, and they cut out the epic last scene... and all the metaphors... bah.


Still, great episode. Just wish they had kept Orange as the ED instead of that god-awful Xmas song. One of the few episodes where Orange would have been a really good ED...


I want to give this a 1 because I'm actually kinda pissed at what they changed, but it deserves at least a 7 for the "Yay, Santa~!" scene. God that was touching.

[Vexx]

Aye... you really have to put the novel events in a mental box and just ask, "did this tell a story in which the characters behaved believably given what information they were given and did the emotions ring true with their character?" In that I think it did pretty marvelously.

As far as critiquing it from an adaptation perspective, the question is "did this accomplish the *spirit* of what needed to happen to get the characters where they need to be for the final arc?" In that I think it did also pretty well though yes, it was quite painful to note the snips, reworks, and edits. Ah well, best to burrow into the novels and use those "mental imagery" clusters for that.

[Maciste]

Really thought the ending could have been better, and they cut out the epic last scene... and all the metaphors... bah.
.

Could you, or someone else, please put in a spoiler box, what in this "epic last scene" in the novel happened?
Or am I mistaken and you just meant the actual cut of the last (epic?) scene?

[Kaisos Erranon]

Could you, or someone else, please put in a spoiler box, what in this "epic last scene" in the novel happened?
Or am I mistaken and you just meant the actual cut of the last (epic?) scene?

Ryuuji, in the last scene of the anime, has this really awesome, short, metaphor-filled monologue that connects with his lines last episode about things being broken and able to be fixed, but with a cynical spin on it, as well as a connection to the constellation Orion, which, in the books, he had begun to unconsciously rely on for a form of emotional support.

He collapses in the cold, but somehow drags himself home, sick with a horrible fever.

He winds up in the hospital, imagining himself in a world of magic, smiting demons, all the while babbling some nonsense connected to the wrestling play they did.

His last line is "After all, haven't all the stars in the sky exploded and died already?"

Furthering the increasingly cynical tone, and completely reversing his earlier idealism.

Anyway, I thought it was epic. Too bad they cut out most of the earlier symbolism required for that scene in the first place.

[Nosauz]

Even if this was more like honey and clover, honey and clover made sense, it was good whereas the comparisons from novel to anime seems that the anime has lost a lot of finese from the novel. Seinen is great, take a look at solanin, my point is the scene could have been executed better especially from what has been discussed from the novels. Atleast from what I have gleaned from what people are talking about in the novels, ryuuji has an actually shift in philosphy which makes sense for him to rethink his position in the world and how thinks about the people close to him.

[Maciste]

Thanks Kaisos Erranon

[typhonsentra]

Sometimes they needlessly make him less perceptive too. Like in the original he was looking for Taiga at the party and couldn't find her, he realized she wasn't around. before Ami told him she went home. As a matter of fact that entire scene was completely different.

[Vexx]

The anime will inevitably suffer in comparison with the mental imagery of the novels simply because a decision was made up front to do this series in only 25 episodes to cover 10 volumes. The compression alone means a lot of subtlety or nuance will get lost.

So there are two ways of looking at it:
1) did the adaptation capture the flavor of the story (even if it is an executive summary)? Given the way the arcs have flowed, its generally a mistake to judge too early.
2) as a stand-alone storytelling effort, does the series tell an interesting and compelling story, in which the characters develop believably and make decisions based on the information they have? Or do they jerk along to some invisible force that shoves them from point to point (a sign of amateurish writing).

I imagine if you compare H&C to its written roots, you might think "a lot of finesse" was lost there also.

Since there really isn't an internal narrative - we have to work with what the characters say (or mutter) - we don't hear thoughts ... that is a major difference from the novels.
It may be that the shift and rethink Nosauz and others are referring to might be written into the next episode or even later -- they have reworked the timeline slightly already a few times in the series to deal with the needs of compression or the demands of the visual medium. If it is never portrayed in any way or form, then yes, that would be a failure of adaptation. Whether that weakens the anime itself on its own depends on how the rest of the series plays out.

My own minor complaint so far is Ryuuji got smudged in the leap from print to the screen. He's even more interesting and hilarious and realistic in the novels. Perhaps the manga will capture that better.

[Fran~]

So, the lesson here: Try not to fall in love with the same person as your best friend. It'll just cause pain on both sides :P
Mankind is failing at this from the very start though....

epic episode... 11/10

[Kaisos Erranon]

My own minor complaint so far is Ryuuji got smudged in the leap from print to the screen. He's even more interesting and hilarious and realistic in the novels. Perhaps the manga will capture that better.

He still gets very little development as a character up until this arc though, really.

Only other time I can think of is the Vol. 5 arc...


You tend to swing one way or the other, in anime-based mediums. Either the protagonist gets the most development or the other characters (usually all female) do.

[crystalalien87]

yes i must agree i adored this episode...it was very surprising to see how things turned out and now the real heart ache start...
i want to say first of all i had always thought that ryuuji would realize he liked taiga before she did. cuz from what i hear from the novel...that taiga realizes ryuuji likes her first and then she develops feelings for him once she gives up on kitamura
but this episode flipped the entire scene... I honestly think she loves him at this point and now he is about to make a difficult decision. especially after being rejected by minorin... i always had this feeling that ryuuji was the rebound but im starting to think taiga is... I think Taiga and kitamura's relationship was more of a huge crush and taiga's/ryuuji relationship was a love being built from the bottom up...without either of them actually noticing it...
i actually watched the crying scene twice just to make sure my eyes were not playing tricks on me lol...
but overall im starting to really enjoy this series even more and not i cant wait to see how taiga reacts towards ryuuji now...and vise versa especially since he is going to mad/depressed for a few episodes. also how will minorin act towards them both...since she now knows the truth that taiga loves ryuuji

[stormy001_M1A2]

You know what, people?

3 main girls of this series are the loneliest girls. The scene of Taiga and Santa supposed to be happy but one look further and realized just how lonely she is. Ami is on her own, hanging on and Minorin revealed to be just as lonely as the other 2.

[Vexx]

yeah, there's quite a streak of loneliness that runs through this tale despite the close friendships. I often wonder if its a bit of a critique of modern japanese society.

[Fran~]

You know what, people?

3 main girls of this series are the loneliest girls. The scene of Taiga and Santa supposed to be happy but one look further and realized just how lonely she is. Ami is on her own, hanging on and Minorin revealed to be just as lonely as the other 2.


Hmmm, yes, but you could think that Ami and Minori has their family, Ami has her job, Minori her club, Taiga really is tje loneliest and for that reason Ryuuji cant helped but stay close to her, feed her, care her and such...

Now... it's really unavoidable stay aside from being really attached one for another, Ryuuji was aware of this a couple of episodes ago and now Taiga realized it now.

What's the bottom line here?... to me is clear... If Taiga doesn't feel "love", she can be happy for her friends, but, when you really think in that you will never be the closest to that person... that hurts a lot... Taiga realized how much she loves Ryuuji, in her own way.

Minori OTOH, she knows better than anyone how lonely is Taiga and how much Ryuuji helps Taiga's heart. So, she thinks in the better outcome, she isn't lonely as Taiga and if Taiga is happy, she could be happy too.

yeah, there's quite a streak of loneliness that runs through this tale despite the close friendships. I often wonder if its a bit of a critique of modern japanese society.
Honestly?, i think that is a critique for the whole world... you can be with a lot of people but feel totally alone.
That's the case of Ami, she could be surrounded by a lot of people, but she is alone. Minori is the same case...
Even Yuri-chan... that's sad, because the people who actually make this kind of novel, manga or anime are in that age... so you can see Yuri-chan, even Ya-chan as projections of the authors.

[Mistypearl]

The song at the end was...wow.
And ahh. I teared up after Tiaga started crying. so sad... :(
Really, really, really, really, good episode, I think it was well executed.

Ah I'm still misty-eyed~ D:

[Kaisos Erranon]

Even Yuri-chan... that's sad, because the people who actually make this kind of novel, manga or anime are in that age... so you can see Yuri-chan, even Ya-chan as projections of the authors.

Yuri-sensei is an self-insert parody of the author herself, IIRC.

The song at the end was...wow.

I really hated that song for some reason. Probably because I was expecting Orange...

[Fran~]

Yuri-sensei is an self-insert parody of the author herself, IIRC.
Some friend who actually lived in Japan told me something like this once: "Japan is the better place to be really alone in the world". You can read author's insert in the book and imagine Yuri-sensei eating that fish that she mentioned as her only worry... sad, really...

[Freya]

Eh I guess I didn't get that UFO and ghost part. Anyone caring to explain?

[Kaisos Erranon]

Eh I guess I didn't get that UFO and ghost part. Anyone caring to explain?

Forget already?

Back at episode 9, the two of them had a conversation where they used UFOs/ghosts as an extended metaphor for love and falling in love.

And now Minori rejects him in the most indirect fashion possible.

[Vexx]

A reference back to the metaphorical way Minorin and Ryuuji approached the idea of a relationship during the beach trip at the villa. She's decided she doesn't want to "see UFOs and ghosts" (with him) because she simply can't stand what would do to Taiga.

Rewatched this episode after reading some of the comments...
1) Taiga was absolutely precious in her "audrey hepburn" homage (see REC eyecatches).
2) Took a minute to recognize Ami with her hair up... Smashing as well.
3) Kihara was "hot" .... a lot happens (or doesn't happen) at the party that is described in the novels (another reason to read them after the series I guess).
4) Kitamura retains his 'batshit crazy' spirit that probably attracts Kihara to him.
5) Some great voice acting here - e.g. Minorin working hard to stay neutral while rejecting Ryuuji. Taiga's strained happyface talk when pushing Ryuuji out the door.
6) The christmas song fits.... if you realize how 'false' is it is right that moment -- at least four of the characters are having a *terrible* christmas at the moment.

[Freya]

Forget already?

Back at episode 9, the two of them had a conversation where they used UFOs/ghosts as an extended metaphor for love and falling in love.

And now Minori rejects him in the most indirect fashion possible.

Oh.....I get it.

Gayest way of rejecting someone......but really subtle in a way. -_-


Awesome Christmas song!!! But sucks for the characters.

[Vexx]

Actually its a very Japanese way..... non-confrontational and oblique.

On other notes... I'll wager the anime adaptation will portray Ryuuji's recalculation of the world around him a bit later perhaps in the next episode while he has time to think about things.

[Kaisos Erranon]

6) The christmas song fits.... if you realize how 'false' is it is right that moment -- at least four of the characters are having a *terrible* christmas at the moment.

I just hate the song. And musical irony doesn't work that well for me, especially if there's lyrics involved. Just my problem.

Actually its a very Japanese way..... non-confrontational and oblique.

And this is why watching Japanese programming is difficult for many western viewers.

[Freya]

I just hate the song. And musical irony doesn't work that well for me, especially if there's lyrics involved.

Aww I thought the song itself was pretty good.

Actually its a very Japanese way..... non-confrontational and oblique.

Wha?! Are you serious...? Dang....

[DragoZERO]

Eh I guess I didn't get that UFO and ghost part. Anyone caring to explain?
He said that they should see UFOs and ghosts together. As stated it was a metaphor for a relationship and falling in love. She said she should see any UFOs or ghosts, meaning she shouldn't be together with Ryuji or with anyone at all. This series is very good with the metaphors and all.

Okay.. EPIC episode. I voted 10. My jaw dropped when they sang on the stage together. That teddy bear was lame but the lame was the win in itself. He should have went to Minorin first and then to Taiga but obviously that wouldn't have worked for many reasons. Now I think its Ami's turn with Ryuji and then the final pair up towards the last couple of episodes.

This is a really good series, oh man.

[Nukerjsr]

Actually its a very Japanese way..... non-confrontational and oblique.

On other notes... I'll wager the anime adaptation will portray Ryuuji's recalculation of the world around him a bit later perhaps in the next episode while he has time to think about things.

I really hope that's what happens in the next episode.

[Vexx]

Here's where I suggest that if you actually want to appreciate japanese entertainment, drama, comedy, etc --- some study of japanese culture, society, etiquette, and language would be really helpful (just like the entertainment of any other culture). Social values and etiquette at least...

Otherwise, quite a number of decisions characters make in various anime, manga, or film are not going to make any sense at all....

[DragoZERO]

Actually its a very Japanese way..... non-confrontational and oblique.

On other notes... I'll wager the anime adaptation will portray Ryuuji's recalculation of the world around him a bit later perhaps in the next episode while he has time to think about things.
I really hope that's what happens in the next episode.Yeah.. he really needs to wake the hell up and start paying attention. His ignorance and stupidity is really frustrating sometimes.

But then again, its a nice change from the typical guy in this sort of series who over thinks it all. lol.

Here's where I suggest that if you actually want to appreciate japanese entertainment, drama, comedy, etc --- some study of japanese culture, society, etiquette, and language would be really helpful (just like the entertainment of any other culture). Otherwise, quite a number of decisions characters make in various anime are not going to make any sense at all....
I wish I could have but they didn't offer it at my university (I took Italian instead to supplement my HS Italian, plus its my heritage, so yeah) and my local college doesn't have it at the moment either.

[Molenir]

It's a trainwreck not because I didn't like how the show is going, but rather because its like watching 2 trains collide. Its beautiful, its fascinating, its terrible, and yet you can't turn away. The human emotional wreckage that we're seeing in the show is just like that, a trainwreck.

Taiga, Ryuuji, Minori, Ami, Kitamura, Sumire. Their alll damaged and twisted by the wreckage produced. Its beautiful and fascinating drama. I'm loving every minute of it, even when it tears your heart out like the most recent episode did.

[Kaisos Erranon]

Yeah.. he really needs to wake the hell up and start paying attention. His ignorance and stupidity is really frustrating sometimes.

But then again, its a nice change from the typical guy in this sort of series who over thinks it all. lol.

The typical guy in this kind of anime IS an ignorant, stupid idiot. Usually sexless too. (See School Days for a send-up of the character type.)

What's nice about Ryuuji is that he has character quirks, a personality, and flaws. That's unique in and of itself.

He's smarter in the novels, though. Sad.



So, the episode's been out for, what, two days, and yet we already have nearly 250 posts, more than the entire count for last episode. Ooogh.

[Fran~]

Here's where I suggest that if you actually want to appreciate japanese entertainment, drama, comedy, etc --- some study of japanese culture, society, etiquette, and language would be really helpful (just like the entertainment of any other culture). Otherwise, quite a number of decisions characters make in various anime are not going to make any sense at all....

Yup, that's true...

About the Ami and Taiga duet, i remember that Motown duets, the choreography and the wardrobe, the homage to Audrey Hepburn was beautiful, the most beauty and elegant actress to me, i was thinking that Taiga and Ryuuji would have some "breakfast at tiffany's" scene...

Maruo is the next Hardo Gay!!!... :heh:

[Vexx]

I wish I could have but they didn't offer it at my university (I took Italian instead to supplement my HS Italian, plus its my heritage, so yeah) and my local college doesn't have it at the moment either.

But hey... :) that's what the Internet and Google is for... a few "guides to understanding anime" or "japanese society etiquette" and at least you're not just scratching your head anymore.

The language isn't quite so important though if you understand some of it, you'll catch things the subtitles often leave out... like when someone is becoming more familiar/close/intimate or when formal dialect is being used (either seriously or sarcastically), occasionally you may catch a proverb that sounds very wrong without a note ... like Taiga's offer to undress when she's saying how hard she's going to work to be a Christmas angel.

The slang phrases are harder to keep up with (like Ya-chan's mangling of terms) but again.. da intarweb tubes are ya friend :)

[Fran~]

The slang phrases are harder to keep up with (like Ya-chan's mangling of terms) but again.. da intarweb tubes are ya friend :)

To bring Shokotan's slang was truly weird... :heh:

[SageGaiGar]

But hey... :) that's what the Internet and Google is for... a few "guides to understanding anime" or "japanese society etiquette" and at least you're not just scratching your head anymore.

The language isn't quite so important though if you understand some of it, you'll catch things the subtitles often leave out... like when someone is becoming more familiar/close/intimate or when formal dialect is being used (either seriously or sarcastically), occasionally you may catch a proverb that sounds very wrong without a note ... like Taiga's offer to undress when she's saying how hard she's going to work to be a Christmas angel.

The slang phrases are harder to keep up with (like Ya-chan's mangling of terms) but again.. da intarweb tubes are ya friend :)

I think they started offering Japanese at my HS, but I think by that time I was stuck learning Spanish (Still useful! and my heritage.. despite forgetting most of it)

[Texas84]

I love this series, but the Christmas party was just weird. No chaperones in Japan? But I'm not going to fault the main characters for being clueless high schoolers because I was too. So, how about a spin-off with Yasuko? Now that's my kind of girl! :D

[Fran~]

I think they started offering Japanese at my HS, but I think by that time I was stuck learning Spanish (Still useful! and my heritage.. despite forgetting most of it)
Personally, i think that learning Japanese is useless if you dont take that seriously and dedicate several years (and maybe forever) of study. Of course you can learn some basic stuff, but the real deal is way more complex, just to learn a hundred of Kanjis is the living hell :heh:

[wistfulloner]

Woah, I return 17 hours later and this thread has expanded 8 pages?

I'm kind of wondering how Taiga will behave in the next episode after her realization. My guess is that she'll try to cover it up (as in, return to her usual attitude from EP17-19), but Minori will be the only witness to her grief.

From the preview, somehow I believe Ryuji is still in delusions from his burning fever... :D

[Noamara]

Whoever wants the Ami and Taiga Christmas song.

On this forum here someone cut the parts of EP 19 out.

http://forum.onemanga.com/showthread.php?t=31083&page=15

Gave 10/10 (well, I always give 10^^).

[Fran~]

From the preview, somehow I believe Ryuji is still in delusions from his burning fever... :D
Traditionally, in new year people go to temples, it seems that Taiga is in one with Kitamura... i cant remember well the preview.

[Vexx]

Personally, i think that learning Japanese is useless if you dont take that seriously and dedicate several years (and maybe forever) of study. Of course you can learn some basic stuff, but the real deal is way more complex, just to learn a hundred of Kanjis is the living hell :heh:

Aye, and I really wasn't implying one needed to learn the language (at least much) to understand what is going on in anime..... but the etiquette, social values, personal values, culture aren't hard to get a clue about on one's own with a just a bit of research. It isn't the same as "one's own neighborhood".

[Master Chibi]

Christ, I'm not even going to bother with the last 8 pages.

This must be "Make Chibi Cry Like a Bitch" week.

D:

[typhonsentra]

Christ, I'm not even going to bother with the last 8 pages.

This must be "Make Chibi Cry Like a Bitch" week.

D:

They're all trying to outdo each other. I hear next week's Index will have a puppy freezing to death in an alley.

[DragoZERO]

The typical guy in this kind of anime IS an ignorant, stupid idiot. Usually sexless too. (See School Days for a send-up of the character type.)
Yes, they are typically the same moronic guys, I know. It just annoys me a little that he isn't making a little progress. (And I hated School Days.. that ending.. ugh).

But hey... :) that's what the Internet and Google is for... a few "guides to understanding anime" or "japanese society etiquette" and at least you're not just scratching your head anymore.
This is true. I'll have to go searching soon.

Woah, I return 17 hours later and this thread has expanded 8 pages?
Thats the one problem with a forum this active.. its almost impossible to keep up with a popular thread. lol. :D

[frivolity]

This episode reminded me of a famous Christmas short story, where the main character sold his watch to buy a beautiful hairclip for his wife, only to find that his wife had cut her hair and sold it to buy a trinket that would match her husband's watch.

Here, Taiga gave Ryuuji a suit to impress Minori during the party, but Ryuuji traded the suit for a bear costume to impress her. The specific events of the stories aren't exactly the same of course, but the whole episode had a similar feel to me.

[Nosauz]

Here's where I suggest that if you actually want to appreciate japanese entertainment, drama, comedy, etc --- some study of japanese culture, society, etiquette, and language would be really helpful (just like the entertainment of any other culture). Social values and etiquette at least...

Otherwise, quite a number of decisions characters make in various anime, manga, or film are not going to make any sense at all....

I'm familiar with asian norms because I've studied chinese and japanese cultural via, novels and expierence with asian people in general, plus I'm asain from a traditional asain family, I enjoy subtlety, and a lot about asain culture is subtle and not overt beat you over head symbolism unless its spicy food, then all bets are off. My point is you have these great characters, that all follow the typical self sacrificing asain paradigm, of helping others in their time of need. My father is like minori, cept hes a dude and he brandishes a cane to keep me in line, but I completely understand were shes coming from, but it doesn't stop me from feeling terrible for her because she really likes ryuuji and she really likes taiga so in either situation it was painful, but instead she put her friend first which is fine, the reason I have a problem with the scene, is that once Minori ends the possiblity of the relationship, she inadvertently reveals that she wanted one to ryuuji, assuming he got the metaphor that he was being dumped. So once you take into account these things, Ryuuji constantly floundering on the issue makes me frustrated. I could compare him to a more manly man, ie Tomoya, but that would be unfair, because Tomoya is a far superior man than Takasu could ever dream to be. I understand he has these latent feeling about taiga, but Tomoya had those same feeling toward Nagisa, but you don't see him actively claiming that he loves other girls. Ryuuji was missing closure at the end, from the way the novel ends, it provides more emotional closure for ryuuji which I think they probably should have went for something closer to the novel

ps. go watch clannad ep18 its the bomb, what a drama should be like.

[Vexx]

I'll agree that it would be nice if the anime had the time budget to follow the novels more closely -- and that apparently we'll have to wait for the next episode to see what anime-Ryuuji thinks of all this. And there's definitely nothing wrong with feeling awful for Minori... the way episode 19 ends many people are feeling awful for Minori, Ami, Taiga, and Ryuuji and the miserable state they're all in. Ryuuji is simply too shy and Minorin decided early on to ward him off because *she* thinks Taiga needs him more than she does. Her rejection in episode 19 asserts that though it might easily have flipped the other way if she hadn't seen Taiga's "true state" instead of the face Taiga presented Minorin to convince her that she had to see Ryuuji.

Yes, I've seen Clannad (based on a game rather than a novel series). Its an excellent drama as well but the story lines are a bit different for me to be comparing them very closely. The characters in Toradora are also extremely dysfunctional - all of them; whereas Clannad was populated with more, shall we say, "normal" characters.

So far my opinion of Toradora is that its a pretty decent anime story on its own (pretty decent, not necessarily The Best Thing Evar, but better than a lot of junk out there). I'm enjoying the story immensely and it did its job --- I'm buying/reading the novels and manga. OTOH, as an adaptation of the novel series, my critique is a bit harsh: its more mediocre --- too many slices to too many moments -- 25 episodes is simply impossible as a time budget to meaningfully portray 10 volumes of fairly complex characters and plot. The executives who made that decision miscalculated, imo.

But hey... if Kanon got remade, maybe Toradora will be revisited by someone with a bigger time budget in a few years...

[Raiga]

This episode reminded me of a famous Christmas short story, where the main character sold his watch to buy a beautiful hairclip for his wife, only to find that his wife had cut her hair and sold it to buy a trinket that would match her husband's watch.

Here, Taiga gave Ryuuji a suit to impress Minori during the party, but Ryuuji traded the suit for a bear costume to impress her. The specific events of the stories aren't exactly the same of course, but the whole episode had a similar feel to me.

Kinda off topic, but the story would be "The Gift of the Magi" by O. Henry.

And yeah I sorta see where you're getting that.

[Vexx]

Actually not a bad catch.... almost seems like everyone in this episode was trying to give each other what they thought they wanted and it spiraled down

[Reckoner]

Sigh, this is why I hate when I unwillingly end up shipping for characters. Minorin is screwed in this series :(. The episode was very good, however, my enjoyment was killed because of biases.

[wistfulloner]

Sigh, this is why I hate when I unwillingly end up shipping for characters. Minorin is screwed in this series :(. The episode was very good, however, my enjoyment was killed because of biases.

Why let the grievances of others spoil your enjoyment? If you like this episode, no damn shipper is gonna take it from you.

[Vexx]

Why let the grievances of others spoil your enjoyment? If you like this episode, no damn shipper is gonna take it from you.
heh.. you missed his point. He was lamenting that HE had gotten very attached to Minorin and was depressed over her choices this episode. He had let his own 'shipping for her interfere with his enjoyment of the story.

It wasn't other ships that bothered him. He was beating himself up.

I'm working very hard not to assume any particular ending though it does seem to be the darkest moment in the series so far. I've been spoiled a bit on the contents of volume 9 but volume 10 (as yet unreleased) .... well, its an entire volume -- a whole bunch of shit can happen, pardon my crudity.

[Kafriel]

The most painful thing is...the 6 days I need to wait for episode 20!

[physics223]

I'll reiterate my stance (as some sort of caveat): I am very, very fond of Ami. I very well know that things are not going to end with what I desire, but I'm still quite open to the majesty of Toradora's storytelling.

Despite this, however, I really dislike that coincidence that Minori saw Taiga at the exact moment she broke down in tears, crying for Ryuuji. I am of the belief that Minori was prepared to answer Ryuuji truthfully and perhaps accede to his advances. After seeing that, however, she simply reversed her decision, primarily because she didn't want Taiga to suffer. I know there are some friendships that are transcendent and like that, but I just thought it was stupid to cause pain for two people (herself and Ryuuji) than to cause pain for Taiga, who (despite everything) deserves her solitude with her treatment of Ryuuji.

I'm sure she cared for him and all, but she was also pining for Kitamura and made it a point to denigrate Ryuuji for his little mistakes. She has changed for the better, sure, but not to the extent that she deserves Ryuuji's kindness or love. Minori, on the other hand, does.

I am very aware that this is merely the author's wishes and it is quite inflexible at this late stage, but I simply wish that they would convince me, the viewer, that Taiga deserves Ryuuji at the end of this. If that's all that she'd do or would do, I will be very angry, and the reason is not about freight or shipping: people get hurt, all because of Taiga, and she'll be paired up with Ryuuji just because she's Taiga? That's a load of bullshit, pardon the rudeness.

(Before anything goes awry, I don't blame Taiga or Minori for their actions. If anything, it's the author who should convince us, the viewer.)

[Waking_Dreamer]

I'll reiterate my stance (as some sort of caveat): I am very, very fond of Ami. I very well know that things are not going to end with what I desire, but I'm still quite open to the majesty of Toradora's storytelling.

Despite this, however, I really dislike that coincidence that Minori saw Taiga at the exact moment she broke down in tears, crying for Ryuuji. I am of the belief that Minori was prepared to answer Ryuuji truthfully and perhaps accede to his advances. After seeing that, however, she simply reversed her decision, primarily because she didn't want Taiga to suffer. I know there are some friendships that are transcendent and like that, but I just thought it was stupid to cause pain for two people (herself and Ryuuji) than to cause pain for Taiga, who (despite everything) deserves her solitude with her treatment of Ryuuji.

I'm sure she cared for him and all, but she was also pining for Kitamura and made it a point to denigrate Ryuuji for his little mistakes. She has changed for the better, sure, but not to the extent that she deserves Ryuuji's kindness or love. Minori, on the other hand, does.

I am very aware that this is merely the author's wishes and it is quite inflexible at this late stage, but I simply wish that they would convince me, the viewer, that Taiga deserves Ryuuji at the end of this. If that's all that she'd do or would do, I will be very angry, and the reason is not about freight or shipping: people get hurt, all because of Taiga, and she'll be paired up with Ryuuji just because she's Taiga? That's a load of bullshit, pardon the rudeness.

(Before anything goes awry, I don't blame Taiga or Minori for their actions. If anything, it's the author who should convince us, the viewer.)

Thanks mate, you hit the nail right on the head!!!

I dont actually dislike any of the characters in the series which at the same time has irked me about the developments of this ep. While not all the characters are equal story wise as individuals in a situation, i hate the fact that characters like Ami and Minori seemed to be seriously crapped on by circumstances.

Taiga was the last one to find out about her feelings and yet shes gets to end up with the one she likes?? I feel there should be some kind of you snooze - you lose element in the story.

Wow, Taiga looks so cute on Christmas...oh wait she just thought of a scenario without Ryuuji'...look how loud shes crying she must be in the deepest pain...

Now lets see Minori and Ami and how long have they KNOWN that the person they like may not possibly be with them...days? weeks?..months? O wait they also have to put on a straight face and smile for that whole time as well. Please, while Taiga's epiphany may be more dramatic, Ami or Minori's pain could easily be on the same level as Taiga's.

I agree with you that the situation seems to revolve around Taiga while technically if you were part of their world Ami and Minori are no less important or special than Taiga yet these past couple of eps she had it the easiest...

Im just sayin.