View Full Version : Clannad ~After Story~ - Episode 18 Discussion / Poll
Klashikari
2009-02-12, 12:12
Welcome to the discussion thread for Clannad ~After Story~ , Episode 18.
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hydropod
2009-02-12, 12:26
What an episode.... but the ED is out of place again....
goddamit.. that got me hard
If you have to summarize this episode in a single word, I think that word would be climax.
This episode alone breaks the record of how much an anime has made me cry ;_;
I just watched it raw and didnt understand anything but when Ushio said called Tomoya "papa" for the first time, tears started flowing freely T_T. While other anime has made me sad, this has been the only one to make me cry like a little bitch without even understanding most of the dialogue.
Hey, you missed the whole first crying point because of that :p
Deathscyther
2009-02-12, 16:09
Great episode. 10/10
I tried to keep the tears from falling....I really tried to....
I had originally planned to wait for widescreen broadcast before watching but seeing ushio made me pick it up from 17.
patient_senses
2009-02-12, 16:14
I second what Lanis said. Clannad is the first anime to make me cry when I don't even understand most of it is being said. It happened first with episode 16 and then this one. When Ushio said she wanted to find the robot because it was the first thing her papa bought for her, I balled like a little baby and then the train scene when they both started crying. :(
Interesting.
Interesting toy.
Rasuberi
2009-02-12, 17:20
My eyes, they sting. They sting so much! Am I just going to cry every episode from 16 and on?
I might consider this the best episode of CLANNAD yet.
I want to give this episode for than 10. This is where I cried the most and the first of all my anime collection that made me cry.For some reason at Episode 16 didn't cry. Maybe because I knew what Nagisa was going to die.
Haruyasha
2009-02-12, 18:21
Why does Ushio have to be so darn cute?
MeoTwister5
2009-02-12, 18:32
I'm going to watch the RAW depending whether...
Is the Reminiscing scene in here?
As for your question
Could be :p I can't say anything more since it would be a spoiler.
MeoTwister5
2009-02-12, 18:43
As for your question
Could be :p I can't say anything more since it would be a spoiler.
I'll take that as the answer I was hoping for then.:p
Time to get a towel.
Tempester
2009-02-12, 19:55
Hmm...
I personally can't believe they squeezed so much in one episode. The vacation in the visual novel was quite long, and I was hoping they would be able to allocate 2 episodes for it. I wonder if it lost the impact by being so rushed.
Mind you, I didn't watch this episode yet, so I'm just jumping to conclusions. I must see the actual episode to believe it.
Despite what I said above, I have skyrocketing expectations for this episode. :P
I personally can't believe they squeezed so much in one episode. The vacation in the visual novel was quite long, and I was hoping they would be able to allocate 2 episodes for it. I wonder if it lost the impact by being so rushed.
Mind you, I didn't watch this episode yet, so I'm just jumping to conclusions. I must see the actual episode to believe it.
Well, I am a game player myself and you don't see me all angry or disappointed over the pacing so you can rest assured that they did quite the good job herel :p
MeoTwister5
2009-02-12, 20:09
Said scene that I was referring to is still undoubtably the best scene in the entire story, and while I haven't watched this yet, I'm probably going to stop short of the scene prior to that one because I want to watch it subbed. Not that I don't know what was said. It's just that I want to see how KyotoAni handles it, as the episode where this scene is can easily become the best episode in the entire series.
Must find subs soon!
This Episode.....
more feeling than E16
mandarb916
2009-02-12, 22:01
One of the few 10s (might be only?) I've given in both Clannad and Clannad AS.
Was looking forward to this part being animated the most out of all the scenes in the game and I have to say it was a really amazing episode and really hits a homerun on one of the concepts of family. I think it's going to be hard to top this episode in the remaining...6(?) episodes.
Mecha_Trueno
2009-02-12, 22:45
LOL so the only thing Akio Akki can teach is baseball:heh:...
Leo_Otaku
2009-02-12, 23:04
Oh my god! I didn't even cry this much in 16. I knew it would happen. Was the same for the game. I always loved the talk that he had with his father and then when he lets Ushio cry in his arms. I didn't mind it being shortened it was all in there. My favorite episode of all f Clannad so far ^-^.
W-General
2009-02-12, 23:06
Wow. Amazing episode.
Almost got a tear from me. Almost. I never cry about anything, but this came fairly close.
Like everyone said, the moment when Ushio called him papa, that was the climax.
I can see why people say the essence of Clannad is in After Story. Amazing art, development, voice acting. 10/10. Whoever gave 1/10 is a big-fat-troll.
Hollly snap, I watched this episode 3 times and I cried 3 times!! I didn't think these kinds of scenes would get me like that...especially since Ushio only appeared for the 2nd episode O_O But her relationshp with Tomoya was already so ...so well developed and clear...that's why the climax was so touching. Ushio's voice actor is amazing *_*
And I gotta say, Ushio is so well-behaved XD
envyitachi89
2009-02-12, 23:34
http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/6328/ushioanddangort9.jpg
Dango!
Kaioshin Sama
2009-02-12, 23:58
No 10 no cry, but I certainly would not disagree with the sentiment put forth by most here. Clannad is the type of series that explores it's core theme quite well when it really gets down too it. I'll take this type of episode over the wacky comedy episodes that dominated the first seasons non-character arc climax episodes and the first half of this season any week of the month. I'll also take good drama over this shows style of comedy every time as well.
This was an episode and plot sequence I've been looking forward to and KyoAni did not disappoint in the least. It was worth the wait to see this animated. It was perfectly directed, acted, animated, you name it. In fact, KyoAni actually improved upon the sequence from the visual novel by virtue of the medium. A perfect adaptation of an amazing moment in an amazing story.
It certainly doesn't hurt that this episode contains the best singular moment to be found in that visual novel. In turn, it is the best episode in either series to date by far. I cannot see them topping this (Key certainly never did). You are quite possibly heartless if you've been watching the series and this episode doesn't get to you. (No offense to Kaioshin, who never really got into this franchise to the degree probably required to get emotional here.)
An easy ten in my book.
panzerfan
2009-02-13, 00:42
KyoAni's design for Okazaki Shino seems to be a bit thinner than the KEY take.
This episode reduced me to tears the moment when Shino makes that one sincere request to her grandson about telling Naoyuki that his job is done. It crushes me to see her hitting the nail on the board about what her grandson has to do, as it is painful to me to see a grandmother in her remaining days to still have such intense concerns over her child and grandchild.
I don't want to speculate on how painful it actually is for Sanae to tell her grandchild that she can only cry in a bathroom or in her father's arms. I can only say that Ushio has been incredably lonely for the last few years of her life, and that having Tomoya assume his responsibilities is the best for everyone. To imagine what the corrospondance between Sanae and Shino would've entailed makes me feel ever more sober than before.
Kaioshin Sama
2009-02-13, 01:29
I just never really felt the need to cry. To me it's not that kind of scenario.
To me it's a matter of feeling a sense of renewed respect for somebody who has finally realized what they need to do and for getting started on turning their life around.
As a comparison there was a similar themed episode of Battlestar Galactica (A show that also has themes of family and comradery) that I saw a few nights ago where a character hit a rough patch in their life after the loss of his wife and started feeling sorry for himself instead of getting back to doing his required duty. In fact he ended up in a downward spiral much like Tomoya did after the events of episode 16. Eventually though he realized (this took quite a few more episodes then it did for Clannad mind you) that he was fast becoming what he despised in another person he knew and decided it was high time to turn it around and to get back to doing what was required of him to help keep the crew (the family if you will) intact.
It wasn't something I felt any need to cry over, but rather something that filled me with a sense of immense satisfaction in finally seeing things set right for this character and the crew that needed his guiding hand. The scenario is the same for me here, I feel no need to cry over what transpired, rather I am filled with a similar sense of satisfaction feelings of pride for Tomoya getting over his loss in time to finally assume his responsibilities as a father before he misses Ushio's entire childhood and becomes worse then his own father.
I like the morality tale aspect of both these stories too combined with the theme of a person coming to terms with himself and taking the first step into the rest of his life.
I hope that clears up why I come across as a heartless bastard a little.
octoberasian
2009-02-13, 01:32
Dammit, I cried twice in this episode...
Don't read if you haven't watched it...
Don't say I didn't warn you...
Once at hearing "Papa" for the first time and second time during the flashbacks during Tomoya's reminiscing scenes.
Rewatching the episode!
This was bar-none: THE. BEST. EPISODE. SO. FAR!
(Out of all two seasons.)
Yumii-chan
2009-02-13, 05:17
Still no sub? :(
This one episode made me cry more than all sad anime I. ever.watched :uhoh::upset:
just amazing how much better this Anime gets every week
Kaioshin Sama
2009-02-13, 05:48
This one episode made me cry more than all sad anime I. ever.watched :uhoh::upset:
Except it wasn't really even sad, it was actually one of the first kind of uplifting and optomistic episodes in a while by the end of it all. The only scene that I found remotely qualifies as cry worth was
the part where Tomoya is reminiscing about Nagisa. And even then that's supposed to be a sign of him getting over her death and recognizing that his time with her was valuable and worth treasuring instead of trying to forget about it. I can understand getting a little teary eyed since it's quite sentimental on a number of levels, but bawling just strikes me as excessive. This isn't a crying contest after all. Okay yes it is.... :heh:
Anyway, I guess I could end this sentence off in a unique way and offer some comfort if people really feel like crying for whatever reason. :upset:
Um...there there? :confused: *hands out the virtual tissues*
P.S: Yes, I realize that part of discussing this anime is in claiming how much it makes one cry and trying to top one another in this regard, but I just don't see the point is all. To me it's just not that kind of episode and the emotion strikes me as inappropriate. I'd rather save it for the right moments should it ever come. I guess I'll just have to be known as that one heartless guy who did not cry during this episode. And really it looks like I'm probably going to be the only one the way it's going. Meh....whatever, I guess it just proves once again that I view and react to this show a lot differently then everyone else.
SidVicious
2009-02-13, 05:56
Still no sub? :(
Subs are out now.
Ottocycle
2009-02-13, 06:33
P.S: Yes, I realize that part of discussing this anime is in claiming how much it makes one cry and trying to top one another in this regard, but I just don't see the point is all. To me it's just not that kind of episode and the emotion strikes me as inappropriate. I'd rather save it for the right moments should it ever come. I guess I'll just have to be known as that one heartless guy who did not cry during this episode. And really it looks like I'm probably going to be the only one the way it's going. Meh....whatever, I guess it just proves once again that I view and react to this show a lot differently then everyone else.
Hyperbole is part and parcel of the internet.
That said, I am very satisfied as a player of the game version. They surely preserved the tear valves. I kinda wept.
SWITCH ON! :p *Watches Kleenex sales skyrocket*
OmegaPhlare
2009-02-13, 06:40
This was the most beautiful episode of CLANNAD I've seen. My heart was filled with joy and then I let out a small laugh as two tears escaped my eyes. Miracles!
FireDetei
2009-02-13, 06:41
I guessed to myself the reason for her stubberness over the toy was because it was from he dad......but the scene where he started remembering Nagisa, it was the 1st ever time i've felt choked up over something on TV, then again, never watched something along this genre line before either :)
Kaioshin Sama
2009-02-13, 06:45
Hyperbole is part and parcel of the internet.
That said, I am very satisfied as a player of the game version. They surely preserved the tear valves. I kinda wept.
SWITCH ON! :p *Watches Kleenex sales skyrocket*
Just call me a tougher sell then I suppose. By the looks of it though I'm going to be not only the one person who didn't cry during this episode, but the only serious person who thought this episode was very good instead of flat out perfect. My goal wasn't initially to stick out like a sore thumb though.
I guess the right thing here to say is if this episode doesn't get to you, then you're heartless. :)
I broke down while watching this, and i'm still feeling the effects. That was incredible touching.
Someone gave 1/10 without explanation .:rolleyes:
Justin Kim
2009-02-13, 06:49
The RAW is already out on torrent? Where? Or has it already been subbed? Oh wow, I really want to watch this...ugh.
The RAW is already out on torrent? Where? Or has it already been subbed? Oh wow, I really want to watch this...ugh.
The episode has been subbed. You can find it in the usual places.
Justin Kim
2009-02-13, 06:51
Oh whoah thanks, I just checked the animesuki.com site. That was insanely fast for the subs to come out this early=/ unless im mistaken, but thank you shiroth. :D
Kaioshin Sama
2009-02-13, 06:52
Someone gave 1/10 without explanation .:rolleyes:
Many more people gave a 10/10 without explaining too. I'd like to hear from them just the same. I've never seen an episode so overwhelmingly well received.
@Shiroth: Don't get me wrong I felt it was touching and poignant I just can't bring myself to cry over it.
@Shiroth: Don't get me wrong I felt it was touching and poignant I just can't bring myself to cry over it.
Yeah i'm not saying that. You don't have to break into tears to accept how touching and beautiful this episode was.
As for people not explaining why they gave this episode a 10, i say the episode does a good enough job of doing that in their place. :)
My throat and my eyes are aching over this episode, and this is certainly not the cold of February and the KyoAni's bright colors.
I would say it is an excellent episode, the renewed respect of Tomoya for his father and his awakening to fatherhood did it for me. Now, the next challenge is to face him and close that gap between each other.
Makoto arc whut?
Kaioshin Sama
2009-02-13, 07:04
Yeah i'm not saying that. You don't have to break into tears to accept how touching and beautiful this episode was.
As for people not explaining why they gave this episode a 10, i say the episode does a good enough job of doing that in their place. :)
Well a lot better then a one at least. I'm just waiting for the crying to stop and the discussion to get going as I think this episode capitalized on the family theme better then any other and I'd like to have a reason to touch upon it some more.
OmegaPhlare
2009-02-13, 07:11
Wow, Kaioshin Sama, you stick out a lot while trying not to. Are you really sure you didn't think this episode was 10/10? From your excitement it sounds like you really loved it but are in some kind of happy denial of your own feelings.
Oof. My eyes and throat are still sore after watching this. I think this is my favorite Episode so far, no other Anime has ever made me tear up this much and cry.
10/10 favorite episode so far! Loved how Ushio and Tomoya are a family again now, i miss Nagisa; ;
Ottocycle
2009-02-13, 07:12
I would say it is an excellent episode, the renewed respect of Tomoya for his father and his awakening to fatherhood did it for me. Now, the next challenge is to face him and close that gap between each other.
Makoto arc whut?
Considering that he wasn't even approaching the level of care that his father had given him and his realisation to that, this task would be nothing compared to the remorse he feels for _totally_ looking upon Ushio as though she was transparent.
For 5. long. years.
Tomoya's always carried a holier-than-thou airs whenever he faces his father, since he just kept getting his life screwed up because of his father's 'antics'(that's what he quite clearly thinks of them). So yeah, all too easy to throw that, and the load off his father's shoulders, away.
Just thought of a most weird, but definitely correct thing to say:
Naoyuki was so GAR in the flashback, even though he didn't say anything.
MeoTwister5
2009-02-13, 07:45
Just saw the RAW.
Yes. The legendary Reminiscing scene. Pretty much the favorite scene by Clannad gamers in the entire game and for me one of the best moments I've ever had to read/play.
I didn't think they could animate it any better than the game, but they did.
Also, the comment by Ushio that it was the first ever toy her dad gave ger is one of the single most thought-provoking lines ever said.
Comments later when I download the subs.
Edit - No subs out yet.
Edit redux - Scratch that. Sprocket Hole subs scarywater site has it listed.
Tempester
2009-02-13, 07:48
I just saw it. It was unreal.
...like a really good dream. I cried twice in this episode. This is simply Emmy award material.
It seems they got the best animators in the studio for this episode as well as 16. The animation was almost movie quality, and that's saying something. I just want to jump into that flower field and relax for hours (but I'll probably get a sunburn).
I like the robot design. :)
Country Train played once, but mean ol' Tomoya interrupted it and it didn't play again. :upset: KyoAni should have harnessed one of their best tracks at least one more time. Oh well.
The flashback glimpses of Tomoya and his father paralleled with Tomoya and Ushio was brilliantly done.
I'm glad they saved "The Place Where Wishes Come True V2" for the father/daughter "crying" scene. It helped built up the suspense and was an effective choice for music direction.
The reminiscing scene wasn't as sad as I thought it would be (due to time constraints) but that didn't keep me from crying.
And also, YAY for consistent endings! :rolleyes: I'm totally using a video editor to edit Dango Daikazoku in.
Gee, Tomoya is quite a crybaby, isn't he? But it's fine for him, for all the terrible crap he's been put through.
Maybe I'll post a few additional thoughts later.
Wow :), this is it, the beautiful story I was looking for. After all the doubts I had, this episode validates the whole series for me. What an emotional roller coaster, sad tears, bittersweet tears, happy tears, just tears pouring out for half an episode. That one episode that defines KyoAni/Key's series, this is it. Scene after scene, you can just feel all the emotions just rushing into you. 10/10, amazing.
I can't freaking believe it. This was just too good. I just finished watching the episode and still can't believe how emotionnal such "simple" scenes were. Probably my favorite episode ATM.
typhonsentra
2009-02-13, 08:23
I was the one score. It was an accident, sorry.
mystic210
2009-02-13, 08:24
Damn, was that a tearjerker or what? 10/10
This is by far the best episode of the series so far, so many emotions going through you. It's pure brilliance, I thought nothing could top episode 16 for me. Finally Tomoya can be a true father towards Ushio and be a family, even though it's without Nagisa.
Once that music cues around 13:00, I just never fully recovered the rest of the episode. That is just awesome I think. And you don't have to be sad to cry. Whenever the body has emotional overload of any kind and can't handle it, I believe it releases manganese through crying to try and calm it. Half the time I was crying I was crying with a smile on, that's what's so great about these drama series from Key/KyoAni, they're not just angst fests, they're very much about values and showing happiness too. What you can do and should do for others, showing how selfish you may be being, by showing how selfish some of the characters are being, I think they are very worthwhile stories to watch, not to mention they are enormously entertaining (most of the time). This episode though, perfect. Overall, took the series for me, from a 7-8 to a 9 easy.
Yumii-chan
2009-02-13, 08:55
Great episode, a perfect 10/10. For once I didn't hate the happy ending song and I cried when Tomoya and Ushio hugged and then again when he told Ushio about her mother.
The ending scene with Nagisa smiling was just perfect.
Somehow I wish that this was the final episode..I'm sure something bad is going to happen :(
Kyoani kind of blew on of the great musical moments they were granted in the game with Country Train (The song that played right after the OP). Yeah, it still sounded as a good song, but it was missing all the effect it had in the game. I still firmly believe it should've ended last episode with maybe just the first chugs of country train, and then queue in the ED, followed by starting this episode with it.
Other than that, there is absolutely NOTHING to complain about this episode. In fact, I liked it better than in the game. His grandmother became an angelic type figure instead of a random old woman. He was shown doing the same things as his father, making the link very well. He OUTRIGHT ADMITTED that he was in the same situation as his father.
Personally, I want the anime to end here. The bittersweet ending where he may have lost Nagisa, but still has Ushio, and recognizes it. Ah well.
10/10, because what I'm complaining about is last episode, not this one.
Beautiful, simply beautiful.
I never in my dreams would I have thought I would weep this much over such simple scenes. Of course I expected this to happen, but the execution is just simply a masterpiece.
I honestly thought I wouldn't cry as much as I did in ep16, boy was I proved wrong, by a long shot. I still have tears pouring out, writing this review, a minute after finishing the episode. I don't think I've cried so much for one series let alone for a single episode.
Time and time again, I'm blown away at how great this anime is.
Where it was okay to cry....
was the bathroom...
and Papa's arms.
Rice_slayer
2009-02-13, 09:10
Wow... more touching than ep.16.. Was it possible? Man even I shed a tear for thethe field "daddy" part Probably was the most touching thing I have ever seen. Man, next episode looks like it might be a more good-spirited one! 10/10. Amazing episode, only like 5 episodes or 4 left :'(
SageGaiGar
2009-02-13, 09:24
Actually I didn't cry either. I *did* almost tear up but it really felt so emotionally satisfying. Quite content after watching that episode. Going to check out the subs now. (I have yet to watch ep16 with subs :uhoh:)
Kaioshin Sama
2009-02-13, 10:13
I watched this episode again with subs and it still didn't do it for me, although kudos for strong dialogue to the scripter. It still seems like everyone here must have seen some sort of ultra-enhanced version of the episode I watched. I think it was perhaps partially spoiled for me by people overselling how much they were crying and such and it's like the bar was set too high for it to ever realistically reach it. I'm sorry, I don't know what else to say, but this episode just was not the episode for me it was for other people.
And to answer Omegaphalere's question I'm not hiding any sort of happy feeling, I've laid it all out on the table already and no I don't want to change my vote to a 10/10 even though I have to be the bad guy once again who undercuts the average by what is now a wide margin. I feel quite satisfied with where I am.
kininku buster
2009-02-13, 10:19
I really had to hold back the man tears in this one. It was a great episode and it was good to know that Tomoyo is willing to be apart of his daughters life now. It's surprising it took him five years and a vacation with his kid to realize that.
I watched this episode again with subs and it still didn't do it for me, although kudos for strong dialogue to the scripter. It still seems like everyone here must have seen some sort of ultra-enhanced version of the episode I watched. I think it was perhaps partially spoiled for me by people overselling how much they were crying and such and it's like the bar was set too high for it to ever realistically reach it. I'm sorry, I don't know what else to say, but this episode just was not the episode for me it was for other people.
Well, we the game players planned accordingly and agreed to avoid any comments that could rise expectations or prepare people for what was to come in last episode's thread, but we can't really do much about people who choose to see the RAW without understanding enough Japanese/read comments and summaries before watching the episode. We could ask the admins not to open the thread till a proper sub is out for the next time though :p
Personally I can almost say that the whole reason CLANNAD exists was for this single episode. It was that high of a climax for me. I can almost feel true sorrow when seeing that I cannot share my joy with you, but such is life I guess.
I noticed the slight change to the ED. I'm also noting that there are spaces left in the walking line.
MeoTwister5
2009-02-13, 11:08
Took a half hour off after watching the subs before posting this. Needed time to think.
But even then, this is the damn best episode of the entire series, and one of the best single episodes of an anime I've ever seen. 10/10 does no justice.
----------------
"Then... let's go."
At this point, if you have not yet realized the main parallelisms of the Illusionary World to that of Tomoya's life, you need to rewatch everything.
So now, as the heavy snow begins to fall, the girl and the robot begin their journey of escape. For the girl to survive, for the robot to find the happiness that eludes them both in this world of eternal end, they must journey to the place where happiness rests. To that place, still there is still a place, far away, far away.
[/Ana insert song ripoff]
"Shut up! You're disturbing people!"
The explosiveness of Tomoya's repressed anger again comes to light. As the nice Country Train (hint) continues on, it gets interrupted by his angry outburst. The mother can only apologize for her son as a face of fear appears on Ushio's face.
Where does she go? To the bathroom to wipe her tears. As Sanae tells her, she can only cry in two places. One in the bathroom. The other?
"Tell me about mommy..."
How hard it must be to speak of loved ones in the past tense. Few fathers will ever be ready when the day comes that their children will ask this question. It brings up emotions both joyful and sorrowful, to attempt to remember memories of the dearly departed as if they were only yesterday.
I can see the pain in Tomoya's eyes. When time stopped on that snowy day 5 years ago, the memories of Nagisa were almost like they really were yesterday. I cannot blame him for his refusal. The pain is still fresh. The cut stil bleeds. The wound refuses to heal. The sadness envolopes his heart still, like a void collapsing upon itself.
"What is this? It feels familiar..."
Father and daughter gaze on the beautiful sunflower fields ahead of them. An unbelievable sight from an animation standpoint. He carries Ushio on his back so that she can see over the bueatiful wide fields of yellow. She wants to play in the fields, but would lose her toy robot in the process. The pair search in vain but young Ushio continues to search anyway.
Tomoya's memories flash in this place of his childhood. To me it isn't an odd thing. I can proudly say of the times where a distant, far-off memory flashed in front of my eyes when I arrive at a place buried deep inside of myself. It his here that he begins to remember his childhood, to a path leading him up the trail. To the cape over the sea.
"I am the mother of your father, Okazaki Naoyuki."
And thus, the story of Okazaki Naoyuki begins.
I cannot imagine the difficulty of being a single father. To have lost the one dearest to you is one thing, to be left the task of her legacy is yet another. But Naoyuki chose to do it, because he loved his wife and son so much. To leave Tomoya would be to spit in her face, and he knew that he had a long road ahead of him. It would be one filled with difficulties, sadness and pain. But he knew. I can only believe that he knew. He knew what he had to do. He had to be Tomoya's father. At that point, he could only do it one way.
"He wanted to raise you with his own hands... He had chosen to live for your sake..."
His life was no longer his, but to his son. At that moment when they chose to walk down that cape together, to leave and find a life for themselves, Naoyuki must have known that to become the single father of Tomoya entails the biggest sacrifice he can ever give for him. Though uneducated, poor and unready for the world, he worked for Tomoya's sake. Bought him sweets, made him food, made a home for him. A home for the two of them.
Yet fathers are merely human. He drank alcohol and smoked to ease the almost insurmountable agony of his emotional suffering. He was passed out most of the time and left Tomoya alone to play. It is here in this beautiful juxtaposition of scenes does Tomoya see what he has become, just how similar they might have been.
"I'm the now the one in his place back then..."
I'll tell you why Naoyuki can smile with such ease. This is a smile of genuine happiness from a father who has willingly made his life a shambles for the sake of his own son.
He was happy that Tomoya had become a fine young man. In that mangled house, in the school courtyard, even behind the prison glass, he was happy, he was proud. He was happy that Tomoya turned into a empathetic man, a man who helped those in need, a man who understood the feelings of others. He was proud that Tomoya became a respectable person, willing to become responsible for his own life and the lives of others.
He knew it was all worth it. Even if he became a drunk, a criminal, a loner and a reject of society, he knew it was worth all of it. Because he managed to raise a fine young man.
In that moment, Tomoya also knew.
"Because... it was the first one papa bought for me..."
I was an emotional wreck at this point. For me, one of the most profound statements of human love I have ever had the undeserving pleasure of hearing. Ushio didn't care what it was or whether she would get a new one. It was the thought, the idea, of the gift.
For Ushio, the first surest sign that she did, indeed, have a father who loved her.:)
She must have been a lonely child to have a father she couldn't get close to. For 5 years living with her grandparents rather than her own dad. She could catch glimpses of him when she visited, but the gap existed between them. She could only continue and hold on to the hope that her dad wanted her, that her dad loved her.
On that yellow sunflower field, she found her answer.
"She told me it was okay.. to cry in daddy's arms..."
I can't begin to imagine how many tears Ushio must have been suppressing all those years at this point. But finally she had found a place to cry. Whenever she was sad, whenever she was happy, whenever she was hurt, whenever she just needed to let it all out.
"Ushio... do you want to hear about mommy?"
Ladies and gentelmen, this is it, The Reminiscing Scene. The top ranked scene in the entire game, my personal favorite, and perhaps something that will stay with me the remainder of my days.
Tomoya can finally describe to Ushio who her mother was. A shy and frail girl who had always stood at the bottom of that hill, indecisive and afraid. She would say Anpan to boost herself onwards, to fight through the day.
This was the day when they met.
Tomoya stops as the tears begin to flow from his eyes. In the span of 4 seconds, as the track plays in the background, Tomoya remembers just who Nagisa really is.
That she, Nagisa, was the only one he had ever loved.
In the game it lasted 10 minutes. In the anime, 4 seconds. And yet... damn... It's still kinda hard to describe. A 4 second montage of scenes as Tomoya begins to choke on his own tears, remembering who she was and how much she had forever changed his life.
But she was gone, and he knew. He could now accept it.
"Nagisa... I've found what I wanted to protect. It's... right here..."
And so, Tomoya with his work clothes and Ushio in hand, gaze at the heavenly figure in this field of white. Instead of tears, they greet her with a smile. Here on the bottom of the snowy white hill, Tomoya and Ushio bid Nagisa farewell to the woman who will forever be a memory in their hearts. She may be gone, but she is still with them, inside them both.
So now, 5 years to the day that a young woman died on a snowy day, Tomoya's life begin to move forward once again.
Together with his daughter. Their daughter. Ushio.
----------------
And that.... well.... I'm probably going to bed now....
kaitoein
2009-02-13, 11:10
I noticed the slight change to the ED. I'm also noting that there are spaces left in the walking line.
yeah, it seem they add Okazaki Shino in the ED.
never seen it in previous episodes , or maybe i just missed it?
Tempester
2009-02-13, 11:18
I noticed the slight change to the ED. I'm also noting that there are spaces left in the walking line.
Huh? They actually (slightly) changed the ending? The ever-consistent Key actually changed the ending? Even if it's a subtle change, I didn't know they could break their consistency so easily like that...
Sort of like filling the gaps as they go.
Damn. I almost cried at the sunflower field part but then I smiled and thought that "good for them."
yeah, it seem they add Okazaki Shino in the ED.
never seen it in previous episodes , or maybe i just missed it?
they did indeed add it.
Wow, that was an amazing episode ><
bladeofdarkness
2009-02-13, 11:43
last episode my heart was breaking to see tomoya treat ushio so coldly
now...
i am beyond words
when watching the original clannad i remember thinking that while i generally love the characters of clannad more then kanon (most especially nagisa)
kanon was an overall better show in terms of the emotional impact it had on me (i was emotinally drained after seeing it in a 3 day maraton)
i litteraly cried during some parts of kanon and that simply did not happen during clannad
this episode however more then matched up to anything kanon had to pit against it
one episode i which nothing praticuarly sad happens
and yet ...
kudos kyoani
kudos key
jenthehen
2009-02-13, 11:48
This episode was amazing. In fact ... the last 3 episodes were amazing. It doesn't even seem like the same show. I was SO disappointed in the first season of Clannad and the first half of After Story ... it just always seemed disjointed and lacked focus and was too ... harem-y.
I wish it had gotten to this point of being GOOD sooner instead of floundering! I'm glad I stuck with it~!
USHIOOOOO!!!! <3
Kaioshin Sama
2009-02-13, 11:48
You know, I almost feel like betting on the poll now. I'm going to say that if the spread is 96% 10/10 to 4% anything else and the payoff is 1000:1 that I'm going to go with the spread and with the odds even though the payoff would suck. Counting ends at the 130 mark or 2 days, whichever comes first.
What's so bad about 10s? Other subforums, especially the big names, also has their fair share of people giving out 10s and not elaborating why. It's certainly not an unique phenomena to just Key/KyoAni.
Yumii-chan
2009-02-13, 11:58
Can't wait until next week >_< If the anime will end happy or sad is still the big question mark
Kaioshin Sama
2009-02-13, 12:02
What's so bad about 10s? Other subforums, especially the big names, also has their fair share of people giving out 10s and not elaborating why. It's certainly not an unique phenomena to just Key/KyoAni.
Did I say it was bad? Rather I find it fascinating.
I've determined that this has the potential to be record setting in terms of ratio for these forums. I'm very curious to see how it all turns out and so I decided to turn it into a game for myself. Polls are normally not very interesting to me at all and I couldn't care less, but this one tickles the fancy of the latent statistics nut and number cruncher in me. It could be years before we see something like this again.
I also get the opportunity from this point on to study this without my own personal interference since I will be going away for the weekend and have no access to the forums. I hope people don't take to much offence, but I can't resist the social scientist graduate in me who wants the opportunity to observe his fellow forum goers and see what makes them tick. If I can't really share completely in the experience with everyone I'd at least prefer to get to understand everyone a little better in my own way.
Sorry everyone, continue.
TooPurePureBoy
2009-02-13, 12:03
Ya this one got a rare 10 from me (sorry Kaioshin) as well. Pretty much a perfect episode in my mind. I don't really feel the need to wax poetic about it either. This episode represents itself quite well, nothing more needs to be said as far as I'm concerned.
P.S.
I cried a bunch.
Ascaloth
2009-02-13, 12:14
Episode 18 article is up:
[RIUVA] CLANNAD ~After Story~, Episode 18 (http://www.riuva.com/?p=1368)
Erm, dammit, I ran out of tears. This episode is one of those that breaks the 10/10 scale. But still....yeah whatever, 10/10.
Did I say it was bad? Rather I find it fascinating.
I've determined that this has the potential to be record setting in terms of ratio for these forums. I'm very curious to see how it all turns out and so I decided to turn it into a game for myself. Polls are normally not very interesting to me at all and I couldn't care less, but this one tickles the fancy of the latent statistics nut and number cruncher in me. It could be years before we see something like this again.
Think about it, when people rated the episode, they did it when the episode was still "hot" in their mind, this is what frenchmen calls it, "reaction à chaud". Then, it should not be surprising if the ratio of 10s, 9s and 8s gets so high compared to the others. Give them some weeks and months, they have watched other shows and they perhaps wanted to watch the series again with a matured mind and look, perhaps their opinions will change, they may lower it or increase it.
Whereas back in 2007 I'd have rated Kanon 2006 a 8, now I'd lower it to 7. It was an emotional rollercoaster but elements like the romance could have been done better.
What is happening now is as I said, a "reaction à chaud". I still thumb up Clannad for doing the extra effort to show the chosen couple's steps in adulthood and its hardships. Few shows does that (one of those that do it is Itazura Na Kiss).
Yukinokesshou
2009-02-13, 12:37
I haven't watched it yet... but it hasn't been 24 hours since the episode was released and this thread is already 5 pages long. I checked the rating poll as I always do before watching, and wah lau, my sky ah, already 66 (out of 69) gave perfect 10! Can't wait lor.
Anyway, I know what will happen and the high rating is somewhat expected. Very kam dong one hor?
Kaioshin Sama
2009-02-13, 12:51
Think about it, when people rated the episode, they did it when the episode was still "hot" in their mind, this is what frenchmen calls it, "reaction à chaud". Then, it should not be surprising if the ratio of 10s, 9s and 8s gets so high compared to the others. Give them some weeks and months, they have watched other shows and they perhaps wanted to watch the series again with a matured mind and look, perhaps their opinions will change, they may lower it or increase it.
Whereas back in 2007 I'd have rated Kanon 2006 a 8, now I'd lower it to 7. It was an emotional rollercoaster but elements like the romance could have been done better.
What is happening now is as I said, a "reaction à chaud". I still thumb up Clannad for doing the extra effort to show the chosen couple's steps in adulthood and its hardships. Few shows does that (one of those that do it is Itazura Na Kiss).
Probably reaction à chaud combined with the fear of being left one of the only people not within a set of a voting option. That's my theory that I'm putting to the test. That people simply don't want to feel left out. If people can see the way the majority went, unless they have a specific reason not to they will be all the more likely to go with the majority because that will seem like the "right choice". It'd be neat if we could see how people might vote in a hidden poll that doesn't get posted until a week later and compare it with this one to see if and/or where the difference would be.
My guess would be that if we get even just a couple more outliers like you and me that people will feel more comfortable and we'll start to see a change in the pattern. That would be your cooling off period. Though I can't say yet if something like that is even going to happen by the time I get back.
I wonder if the reason more games don't have an After Story part is because of production costs or because they fear backlash for making a canon pairing for one. Probably a combination of both.
Probably reaction à chaud combined with the fear of being left one of the only people not within a set of a voting option. That's my theory that I'm putting to the test. That people simply don't want to feel left out. If people can see the way the majority went, unless they have a specific reason not to they will be all the more likely to go with the majority because that will seem like the "right choice". It'd be neat if we could see how people might vote in a hidden poll that doesn't get posted until a week later and compare it with this one to see if and/or where the difference would be.
My guess would be that if we get even just a couple more outliers like you and me that people will feel more comfortable and we'll start to see a change in the pattern. That would be your cooling off period. Though I can't say yet if something like that is even going to happen by the time I get back.
I don't think most people check the results of the poll before rating. I mean, I never have. The results, after all, are hidden before you vote unless you ask to see the current results.
Kinny Riddle
2009-02-13, 12:57
"Moving", "touching", what other word can be used, really?
Tomoya finally realizes he's even worse than his own father, who more or less destroyed himself trying to raise Tomoya into the man he is now. While his father sacrificed everything to make sure Tomoya grew up properly, for these five years Tomoya has been indulging in self-pity and neglecting both himself and his daughter.
Sanae-san knows it's still not too late for Tomoya to redeem himself, and already he is on the path to truly becoming a father at last. She has also taught Ushio well, telling her the two places where she could cry: in the bathroom; and in her papa's arms.
Next week, Tomoya not only becomes a good father, he will also return to becoming a good son as he pays his father a visit after so many years.
Now the ED includes Shino as well in the parade.
I doubt many people are going to click "Show vote results" before they vote themselves, in a poll like this.
You guys apparently being "outliers" has little further meaning, beyond its own definition; the reason most shows are skewed heavily towards the higher ratings is a combination of the general "high-rating-bias" that appears everywhere, and the fact that most people who visit the sub-forum of a certain show beyond the first few episodes, enjoy that show.
Likely, a lot of people just really liked the episode, myself included.
Also, what you call "reaction à chaud", we generally just call the "afterglow".
Grace & Peace.
I could not found. Any. Fault. I tried.
"Papa no mune no naka"
If I recall correctly the scene when Tomoya opened the toilet wasn't in the game.
If it was Kyoani original, ... I can't say anything that doesn't make me look like a fanboy, so go figure.
Damn that was beautiful.
There was a few more, but this one had the greatst impact on me.
Tomoya, you can't let a child held back their tears. It's adult's, our job.
From now on, forever, you will be the place for her to cry.
You are special to her, after all.
Naoyuki.
Once upon a time a man stood up, against his feelings, against his cruel fate,
walking within the hardest days of his life.
All to raise his son.
With his own hands.
During all those harsh time, he did not let go of his son's hand. Not once.
Weak - miserable - useless, yet he'd anything for his son.
And Negai ga kanau basho ni II.
God I wish this episode never ended.
Probably reaction à chaud combined with the fear of being left one of the only people not within a set of a voting option. That's my theory that I'm putting to the test. That people simply don't want to feel left out. If people can see the way the majority went, unless they have a specific reason not to they will be all the more likely to go with the majority because that will seem like the "right choice". It'd be neat if we could see how people might vote in a hidden poll that doesn't get posted until a week later and compare it with this one to see if and/or where the difference would be.
My guess would be that if we get even just a couple more outliers like you and me that people will feel more comfortable and we'll start to see a change in the pattern. That would be your cooling off period. Though I can't say yet if something like that is even going to happen by the time I get back.
I don't buy the peer pressure theory. Isn't much easier to accept that people voted without checking the poll first? Even in presidential polls, people vote according to who they think would represent their ideas better, not because surveys told them that the poll gonna be that way.
In the context of episode polls, if someone felt that the episode deserved a 10, he will do it. The same if he wanted to vote 5 or 1. Then it is up to him to tell WHY he rated this episode that way.
I'll leave the subject now and let people rate the episode according to whatever they feel it.
Kinny Riddle
2009-02-13, 13:13
There was a saying among the otaku community in Taiwan back when AIR was released, "If you didn't cry, that's because you still haven't fully mastered your comprehension of the Japanese language." Enough said, now wait for the subs before some of you lot here brag about how cold-hearted you are. :cool:
(Edit: Well, if it makes you guys feel better, I was certainly moved but the tears won't come out. So I still have a lot to improve on my Japanese. :) )
I myself don't personally do these episode votes for a long time now, as it'll just get me worked up having to debate meaninglessly on why certain episodes deserve how many points.
If you point a gun at my head and ask me to choose, I would instinctively say this episode is 10 out of 10 BEFORE looking at the results, so peer pressure my foot.
Anyway, back on topic, my major disappointment was the track Country Train getting "nerfed". It was one of the best songs in After Story, and it only appears in that segment of the story, as the song title implies, and Kyo-Ani has unfortunately wasted it.
And doesn't that robot toy Tomoya bought for Ushio look familiar? (wink wink)
Trivia: For those familiar with the still ongoing "old-school" anime Sazae-san (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sazae-san), you may recognize Shino's voice as Aso Miyoko, who plays Sazae's mother.
Myssa Rei
2009-02-13, 13:13
Powerful. Emotional. Beautiful.
I'm reserving my words for the papers I'm currently writing, but it sums up my thoughts for the episode.
Myssa Rei
2009-02-13, 13:19
Proto: Because I ALWAYS give shows a rating of 7-8-ish. It's how I am.
Roger. Hmm... with this many discrepancies between personal ranking and public rankings we never know. Maybe we should publish a standard where people that are more strict than others should increase their rating by 3 when voting in public polls, and conversely people who are too lenient should diminish it. :p
Yukinokesshou
2009-02-13, 13:55
Well, I watched it. I knew what was going to happen already but the impact was still extremely powerful. I'm going to wait a day before ranking in order to let the "réaction à chaud" effect wear off.
I never understood what people felt was so touching about Kanon. When you put Kanon, Air and Clannad side by side, Kanon feels like lukewarm water.
I hope someone is designing a Tomoya+Ushio banner for Animesuki!
AngryDango
2009-02-13, 13:55
Naoyuki is such a respectable man, life really has been a bitch on him.
Tomoya is so lucky for having the Furukawas suporting him.
Anyone would be lucky to have the Furukawas as family, or even friends.
Maybe some here would have cried had Ushio lost a Gundam, instead...
For my part, I thought the ep was really special.
Akio had a Gundam obsession in the game :P
I wonder what Akii'd make of the Garazzo, though.
Hint: there's a seiyuu joke hidden in there, for those who don't know already.
Deathkillz
2009-02-13, 14:22
This was probably the most emotional episode to date for me since nothing in the series come parallel to Ushio's innocence and braveness, which is what brought me to teary eyes. Damnit Tomoya, it was about time...*weeps*
Oh, then he should've used Tezuka Zone to stop the Trans-Am Raiser!
Hmm, it would've been nice to see an over-the-shoulder view of Ushio running through the field, like in the OP. Or maybe there was such a scene, and I missed it in the 2AM-ness.
Wow!!! What can I say but to echo the sentiments already shared. This was a beautiful episode. Ep 16 didn't touch me as much as this one as I had already guessed the outcome in 16 and was prepared for it. However this one was just beautiful and the tears did come.
The colour has finally returned to Tomoya's grey world. And judging by the preview of the next ep, Nagisa's wish for Tomoya to reunite with his father will be fulfilled.
What an amazing episode to watch on Valentines Day. I hope that everyone may be with someone they love today, whether it be partner, family or friends.
Happy Valentines day all.
Change of Pace
2009-02-13, 15:38
No complaints for me; that was a perfect, perfect episode. I also cried twice; in the field and on the ride back home. Oh and I love Sanae's smile in the preview. It's so satisfied, with a hint of pleasure that her brilliant plan worked out after all.
Vegard Aune
2009-02-13, 15:45
...Beautiful. The animation, the writing, the music, (Distant Years AND The Place Where Wishes Come True II in the same episode = Win) the events which for once I had not been spoiled about... Everything was flawless. Once again, I give this episode a 10/10, and, though I think I've said this before, I'll say it again: God, I love this show.
eversynth
2009-02-13, 16:49
I am part of "nothing made me cry like this episode" crowd.
The last few episodes were heartbreaking because you could sense how lonely Ushio has been her whole (ok, it' only 5 years) life. How many times did she cry all alone? She wanted to know about her mother, but nobody would tell her...
I don't know if I can explain it well enough...
In this episode there were both tears because of the sadness, then tears of joy when Tomoya finally understood Ushio's feelings, then again sadness remembering Nagisa and how she will be missing from their lives.
Justin Kim
2009-02-13, 17:56
Omg wow that was a tear-jerking episode I just finished. I don't cry much, haven't cried in 2 straight years - no lying. But wow, I now understand just how hard it is to be a father, and what it means to protect those you love. I cried at least thrice in this episode, this was so heart - touching, it truly inspired me to give it my all in life now.
musume_no_hoshi
2009-02-13, 18:11
I'm a big cry baby anyway, but this episode just made me cry like crazy. Never cried so much for an anime series. (1 Litre of Tears was more tear jerking because it was based on a real life story)
I knew KyoAni was going to keep the best animation for the important episode. :heh:
typhonsentra
2009-02-13, 18:23
Having seen the episode now, even though it was a mistake I think I'll stand by the score.
I won't get into it with people as I know the opinion will be unpopular but the way characters express sadness in this show at dramatic moments is so manipulative I just roll my eyes every time it comes up in these past few episodes. Besides that I just can't relate to Tomoya at all, and I've both lost loved ones in the past and had issues with my dad not far off from the ones he's had with his. He just behaves like a robot 90% of the time, totally detached from the things going on around him. I realize some people aren't good at expressing their feelings but this just feels like poor directing rather than that. I mean, who the hell leaves a five year old unattended in a field for an extended period of time?
Justin Kim
2009-02-13, 18:26
Yeah but think about it typhonsentra, he obviously didn't knew what it meant to be a father. Someone whom is always there for his kid and others. Tomoya suffered a great deal of pain, and loneliness. If that were me, I would hate the world for displacing the loneliness on me. This further inducing me to value life less, and induce poor behaviorial characteristics that impact others negatively. We have to feel a little consent for Tomoya's faults, after all it is his environment.
I mean, who the hell leaves a five year old unattended in a field for an extended period of time?
Considering that the extended period of time shouldd have been 15-20 minutes at most, and the "I don't care much about everything' attitude Tomoya had at the moment, while it is definitely not a behavior that one would want to encourage, it is something you may be able to see IRL. Other alleviating factors: We are talking Japan, and moreover, a rural area, so kidnappings aren't even a factor. The worst that would happen would be for her to wander around and get lost. And considering that Tomoya knows Ushio to be obedient, my guess is that he didn't imagined her to go by herself around. And in fact she didn't.
But in any case, as much logic as one may want to put into this, if one can't empathize with the characters then there's not much that can be done. It is a real shame that you weren't able to enjoy the episode :(
typhonsentra
2009-02-13, 18:30
I don't think you need lessons to know something like that.
He just behaves like a robot 90% of the time
:thinker:
Wow.
Leo_Otaku
2009-02-13, 18:58
Having seen the episode now, even though it was a mistake I think I'll stand by the score.
I won't get into it with people as I know the opinion will be unpopular but the way characters express sadness in this show at dramatic moments is so manipulative I just roll my eyes every time it comes up in these past few episodes. Besides that I just can't relate to Tomoya at all, and I've both lost loved ones in the past and had issues with my dad not far off from the ones he's had with his. He just behaves like a robot 90% of the time, totally detached from the things going on around him. I realize some people aren't good at expressing their feelings but this just feels like poor directing rather than that. I mean, who the hell leaves a five year old unattended in a field for an extended period of time?
You admit you accidentally scored a one and then you come back and go I stand by it ? Whatever >.>
Well, I watched it. I knew what was going to happen already but the impact was still extremely powerful. I'm going to wait a day before ranking in order to let the "réaction à chaud" effect wear off.
I never understood what people felt was so touching about Kanon. When you put Kanon, Air and Clannad side by side, Kanon feels like lukewarm water.
I hope someone is designing a Tomoya+Ushio banner for Animesuki!
Kanon is from 1999 from then on KEY improved upon their work. Much as how ONE was previous to Kanon and so forth. Clannad is a much more...how would I say it? Higher degree of story?
For Kaioshin's opinion he is just a hard critic he made his point and it wasn't like he gave it nothing without a proper reason. Each to their own. My one friend has only cried three times in her life. She didn't even cry at her friend's funeral.
Leo_Otaku... that is just baiting. If you have anything personal to discuss with typhonsentra please use PM's, otherwise we will derail this thread in a direction we don't want to see.
Heh, Kaioshin, most of my friends wouldn't shed a tear or even feel anything intense from watching KyoAni Key adaptations, you're not the exception you're the norm for guys outside of a certain circle.
The reason that you "stick out" is because usually, if they don't develop a strong attachment to Key's characters, they stop watching, or don't even start. The fact that we're nearing the end of the SECOND season, means the only people that still post and discuss about Clannad are people like.... well, me. Extremely attached and extremely emotional.
Also to comment on the view that KyoAni's directing is "manipulative": Yeah, I do agree it is trying hard to manipulate our emotions, and KyoAni usually does it in a very blatant way. Every other girl in Clannad can break out in tears spontaneously. The reason I can look past that is because I view Key adapted shows as "emotion-driven" shows to begin with, although they do have supernatural and philosophical elements, it has always been the emotions that drove the show forward. They play the drama card HARD, which is understandably off-putting for some people.
typhonsentra
2009-02-13, 19:11
Leo_Otaku... that is just baiting. If you have anything personal to discuss with typhonsentra please use PM's, otherwise we will derail this thread in a direction we don't want to see.
I knew this was going to come up when I posted in the first place, I assure you that isn't what I'm doing.
I knew this was going to come up when I posted in the first place, I assure you that isn't what I'm doing.
My apologies, I chose the wrong word I guess since I wasn't referring specifically to your post put to the reply. In any case everything is well and ok now so I'll drop the matter myself.
Wow, Ushio is so cute x_x. If I wasn't one already, then this episode would've definitely have turned me into a lolicon.
Well, this episode turned out a lot better than I thought it would. I wasn't exactly thrilled with how they protrayed episode 16, but holy crap, this episode killed me. The cliff scene was well executed and the... analogies (?, right word?) of what was happening really fit in.
BUT OMFG THIS EPISODE MADE ME CRY 3 TIMES, EVEN WHEN I ALREADY KNEW WHAT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN AND WHAT THEY WERE MOSTLY GOING TO SAY (mostly it was Ushio's innocent voice). The only time I've even gotten close to crying in anime was the end of Makoto's route in Kanon (off topic..). I would give this episode an OVER NINE THOUSAND/10. Best episode I've ever seen or can remember seeing.
It's hard to believe it gets even better.
Had to come out from the lurker shadows to rate this a ten. My tear ducts don't work that well and all this crying really does my eyes a lot of good. :D
I hardly ever post here, but I too must step up to say just how amazing this episode was.
I know others have been skirting around it, but I'll come out and say it. This was the single best episode of any anime I've ever seen. The episode simply beautiful, and it struck all the right notes. The timing was terrific, the voice acting was impeccable, the animation was stunning, the music was perfect. I simply can't say that I've found anything faulty with this episode, other than the fact that I'll need a new box of tissues tomorrow. ;) It wasn't just this episode, however, some of the credit must be given to the ep.s leading up to it. The emotionally crushing 16th episode that caused the heart to ache and then the pain that was so clearly evident in episode 17 led to this amazing catharsis of episode 18. It is simply an astounding story, and each episode brings a new emotion, like pieces to a puzzle of a picture that becomes more beautiful with each new connection.
Needless to say, 10/10.
Ice Block
2009-02-13, 19:58
10/10 for GREAT justice!
This is THE portion of After Story that I have been waiting for so long to get animated. Also, KyoAni managed to barely surpass the VN by adding in the Tomoya-Naoyuki Ushio-Tomoya flashbacks. Yes, this is certainly up for the single best anime episode of the year! Very beautifully done, and looking forward to more in the future episodes.
__________
I don't think you need lessons to know something like that.Now, I assume this is referring to leaving a 5-year-old girl roaming around in a rather large, flat flower field located in a rural area with absolutely no sign of any predatory vertebrates, disease-spreading invertebrates or harmful machinery for a maximum of 15 minutes around perhaps 4:30pm to 5:45pm to check up something 50 meters ahead, give or take a dozen meters, or maybe take a leak, catch a view of the ocean, etc.
Well, I also assume that you:
are not supposed to cross a street with a green traffic light on even if there a no vehicles moving along said street within at least a kilometer of your current position.
are not supposed to throw your garbage materials into any other physical location aside from marked "Garbage Cans" or "Trash Dumps" and the like, even if there are people assigned and are working to clean up the mess just in case everybody decides not to.
don't need lessons to know something like these.
Yes, there are rules and norms. However, there are also times where it is perfectly fine to not mind the rules or be ignorant of them.
Now, about how Tomoya behaves like a robot 90% of the time (;)), and about how you have difficulties, and are even not able to relate to him at all, given how you think how close your personal experiences are... a few questions you might want to think about:
Are you married / Do you have a wife?
Are you a father?
Did your wife have pregnancy complications?
Did these complications eventually lead to the death of your wife, either upon childbirth or while your child was still 18 to 30 months old?
If so, then how did you feel when you basically traded the life of your most loved one for that of your only son/daughter?
If your answer to questions a through d are no, then therein lies your problem. Simply put, this is not a story resembling your life, so do not selfishly judge their actions based on how you reacted in situations that were only very remotely similar.
If your answer to questions a through d are no, then therein lies your problem. Simply put, this is not a story resembling your life, so do not selfishly judge their actions based on how you reacted in situations that were only very remotely similar.
This I can answer (well in fact I'm just expanding on an observation I made earlier). No matter the art form, empathy is the one thing you need to have in order to te art form message to reach you. Be it a paint, music, a drama play or anything, you need to relate to the author, to the characters, to the message that is conveyed to you. Although it can be analyzed by logic as to why or why not certain presentations or art forms can reach us better than others, in the end it depends upon something as subjective as empathy. You cannot simply tell someone not to try to project themselves in a character because that is one of the big parts of what art is about. Of course flexibility helps a lot here, but that varies and depends on each person.
Now as to why this episode managed to reach a wide spectrum of its viewers would be an interesting analysis.(granted, our sample population in this case is composed of people who already like the themes presented in CLANNAD to some degree, so it is not all that fair)
RandomFlameStrike
2009-02-13, 20:22
I know people have said this before, but this was probably the best secene in Clannad and AS. Also it's the only ep I gave a 10/10. I cried a river when I first read this secene, and unlike Nagisa's death the impact didn't lower at all the second time... it's an awesome scene.
karinvampire
2009-02-13, 20:26
Great episode I was very teary eyed.
This episode was very touching. I watched twice. I was crying so much.
SHIT, the best episode this season by far, and considering what kyoani does best it can only get better. my two favorite moments are when ushio first tells tomoya that its ok to cry in the bathroom and papa's arms, fucking i'm welling up again, and the 2nd moment was on the train ride back tomoya crying while he's talking about nagisa, that part hit me like a ton of bricks,all I can say this is definitely the best work that kyoani has done, this series will be a classic and probably a standard for all dramas
ps. if kyoani just makes key games into anime I could care less about haruhi, some parts weren't as moving as the last 5-10 mins, but god damn this episode rocked, the emotion was real, and the pain that tomoya has suffered up untill now really was summed up nicely at the end, it was beautiful, made me even forgive makoto (they kinda look alike but so different)
Ice Block
2009-02-13, 20:38
Yes, flexibility is exactly what I am promoting. Instead of discouraging him from trying to relate to the character, I am instead suggesting to be more flexible in doing so -- by perhaps comparing more similar experiences, or by trying to put oneself in the character's shoes.
Now, as to why this certain episode managed to garner very good reviews from a rather large (95% at least?) portion of the fanbase... I think its rather simple, really. For one, this episode highlights the resolution of three of the main problems that have been haunting the series -- Naoyuki's father-son (non)relationship with Tomoya (which has been present since day 1), Nagisa's death, and the subsequent father-daughter relationship between Tomoya and Ushio. Mainly due to these problem solved scenarios, this seems like the climax of After Story, much like how series season-enders usually are. Now, add to the fact that tear-jerking scenes are fan favorites in this genre, plus KyoAni improved upon the original material that was already very highly regarded among KEY fans, and you got the recipe for a legendary episode.
And hell, Ushio is just too damn cute. :heh:
Though it was sad to hear Country Train get cut off like that.
MeoTwister5
2009-02-13, 20:43
Yeah. I think I'll fire up the game and listen to country train.
Justin Kim
2009-02-13, 20:54
The overall episode, was just brilliantly made by KyoAni. I loved how the illumination was expressed in each scene. The tempo and mood were just right from each scene transition, and this provided the audience a fantastical sense of how truly the character felt from the deepest of his hearts. KyoAni is in my high respects, the greatest anime producing company that truly brings even those that we deem fictional characters, become realisticly portrayed individuals.
digi.amuro
2009-02-13, 21:02
Episode 18 was one of the best episodes of anime I've seen in awhile and one of the few instances an anime has moved me to tears (rather then "oh noes, my show ended, bawl!"). Got me 3x. I was compelled to come out of lurk mode to share. I think the developments that led up to this episode were pretty well executed and setup this episode quite nicely. Emotional impact was powerful, especially the meeting w/ Okazaki Shino, the field scene, and the trainride back. The tension between Ushio and Tomoya really drew me into it when those big scenes came this episode. Definitely deserving of a 10.
Probably reaction à chaud combined with the fear of being left one of the only people not within a set of a voting option. That's my theory that I'm putting to the test. That people simply don't want to feel left out. If people can see the way the majority went, unless they have a specific reason not to they will be all the more likely to go with the majority because that will seem like the "right choice". It'd be neat if we could see how people might vote in a hidden poll that doesn't get posted until a week later and compare it with this one to see if and/or where the difference would be.
My guess would be that if we get even just a couple more outliers like you and me that people will feel more comfortable and we'll start to see a change in the pattern. That would be your cooling off period. Though I can't say yet if something like that is even going to happen by the time I get back.
I wonder if the reason more games don't have an After Story part is because of production costs or because they fear backlash for making a canon pairing for one. Probably a combination of both.
Interesting idea, but peer pressure is not that big of a factor when it come to online forums, personal preference out weighs peer pressure more because of the nature of the internet, anonymity prevents peer pressure because effectively the internet masks out true identities. First impressions are important, and so the theory that because its fresh we rate it higher is true, but also something you have recently viewed will be rated higher than something your pulling from memory because it freshly on your mind, but also this is sometimes false when the image we pull up is one that we have idealized then the image becomes more highly rated then the fresh image. But on that same note watching the idealized version again, triggers endorphins associated with the idealized image and thus makes us rate it higher. Of course this is all speculation, but generally polls are quite useless because only people who feel strongly about their opinion will vote in an optional poll, which is dictated by standard statistics. Plus we are also only looking at a segmented of the population within animesuki, those that frequent this board are the ones to vote, so generally the voters are people who already enjoy the show so naturally there will be a top heavy bias with any poll within a certain section, but then again for discussion sake many want to discuss things with people of similar view especially when it comes to anime.
Also overall the episode followed a logical order and was pretty straight forward development wise, but due to seiyu and music choice, this episode became great in my mind.
typhonsentra
2009-02-13, 21:15
Now, I assume this is referring to leaving a 5-year-old girl roaming around in a rather large, flat flower field located in a rural area with absolutely no sign of any predatory vertebrates, disease-spreading invertebrates or harmful machinery for a maximum of 15 minutes around perhaps 4:30pm to 5:45pm to check up something 50 meters ahead, give or take a dozen meters, or maybe take a leak, catch a view of the ocean, etc.
You seem to be giving him a lot of benefit of the doubt here in the distance he walked away and how long he was gone. If you watch the scene it seems pretty obvious he went much farther than that (He passes several things before he reaches the steps leading to the overlook of the sea). On the time too, when he gets back to Ushio it's clearly darker outside (Evening) when he gets back. And finally, no sign of invertebrates? High grass (Or in this case, mainly flowers) fields are an area where you definitely have to watch out for snakes. Besides that, leaving kids unsupervised, she easily could've gotten scared/lost running off trying to find him.
Well, I also assume that you:
are not supposed to cross a street with a green traffic light on even if there a no vehicles moving along said street within at least a kilometer of your current position.
are not supposed to throw your garbage materials into any other physical location aside from marked "Garbage Cans" or "Trash Dumps" and the like, even if there are people assigned and are working to clean up the mess just in case everybody decides not to.
don't need lessons to know something like these.
Yes, there are rules and norms. However, there are also times where it is perfectly fine to not mind the rules or be ignorant of them.
Perhaps, but it just feels hard to accept that these things wouldn't cross the character's mind. I mean, would you do something like that? There was no reason he couldn't bring Ushio along for his little walk other than for the sake of the story (It would've been awkward to have Ushio there while the grandmother talked about Tomoya's father).
Now, about how Tomoya behaves like a robot 90% of the time (;)), and about how you have difficulties, and are even not able to relate to him at all, given how you think how close your personal experiences are... a few questions you might want to think about:
Are you married / Do you have a wife?
Are you a father?
Did your wife have pregnancy complications?
Did these complications eventually lead to the death of your wife, either upon childbirth or while your child was still 18 to 30 months old?
If so, then how did you feel when you basically traded the life of your most loved one for that of your only son/daughter?
If your answer to questions a through d are no, then therein lies your problem. Simply put, this is not a story resembling your life, so do not selfishly judge their actions based on how you reacted in situations that were only very remotely similar.
So much to say about this one I don't know where to begin. And to be fair, I could make the argument that you're being generous in excusing his actions because of his circumstances.
Also, my remarks weren't limited to his reactions to Nagisa's death, and were more focused on his relationship with his father (Notice how I specifically mentioned that in my previous post?). His entire relationship leading up to him moving out made little sense to me. At first he hated him because he was drunk all the time, then not because he permanently handicapped him in a violent attack but because he doesn't treat him like a son anymore, and then hating him for ruining his reputation with his criminal activity. And then after 40-some odd episodes where he's hated this man so passionately we're supposed to accept that all that's gone now because of a (As you say, 10-15 minute) conversation with the guy's mother? And what information did she actually give him when you break it down? That his mom died giving birth to him (Didn't we already know that?) and that he loved her? Yes, I realize he saw his own situation in his father's past but the complete acceptance is unnatural given how much he hated the man up until that point, at the very least he should've been more conflicted in answering the grandmother's request at the end of that scene in front of the ocean.
Finally, "Selfish"? I never assumed I knew what it was like to raise a child after losing your wife. I do however have grief Tomoya choosing not to raise his child after his wife died and instead passed her along to her grandparents while he wallowed in his own sadness for the next five years, and this I can relate to. Yes he realized that what he did was wrong in the end and is going to rectify it but I don't think it's unfair to consider how long it took him to get there excessive.
Well, this certainly beats the Makoto arc finale. Amazing episode, more than makes up for the lacklustre first half of After Story in my opinion.
All we have see of Tomoya's father is someone who is complacent with his son, and that he broke his son's arm in argument, after that all he is left is a husk of a man. Now this episode revealed that Naoyuki sacrificed everything to be with Tomoya, everything. This really wouldn't have been so impactful on Tomoya but he sees himself as being like the father he remembered, the bad father. Of course its convenient that Tomoya forgot the good times, but a single parent raising a child is not easy, even though Naoyuki had the best intentions while trying to raise Tomoya, the childhood just wouldn't be as cheery as Tomoya would remember, and so you have the development of the idea that Tomoya realizes what Naoyuki did for him, in the painful situation he forgot all of the things his father did for him, and only remembered the pain, which is similar to the pain he felt when Nagisa passed. The reason he is able to accept his fathers mistakes is because of Ushio, and the fact that if he didn't learn from his father, Ushio would suffer a harsher life than he had lived. Plus his acceptance wasn't complete, his grandmother may have considered Naoyuki a great father but Tomoya only says that he doesn't hate his father, in that moment he accepts his father's faults and actions in attempt to be a better father to Ushio, not to forgive his father, forgiving his father comes as a side effect of him trying to realize that he needs to protect Ushio.
ps. Loved the robot forshadowing.
At first he hated him because he was drunk all the time, then not because he permanently handicapped him in a violent attack but because he doesn't treat him like a son anymore, and then hating him for ruining his reputation with his criminal activity. And then after 40-some odd episodes where he's hated this man so passionately we're supposed to accept that all that's gone now because of a (As you say, 10-15 minute) conversation with the guy's mother?
Being drunk and ruining his reputation where just the topics of his problem (if you remember one of the first episodes, when Naoyuki passed out in the living room in front of the table, Tomoya was trying to wake him up, until Naoyuki wake up and replied with a "hi, tomoya-kun). But the root was in the apparent distance his father put between them.
Point two. Time is the best healer for any wound. I can say this from my own experience where ym relationship with someone very close to me became strangled because of a series of incidents, however as time passes and you reflect and understand the other part reasons and motivations, the scars and emotional injuriestend to alleviate. Moreover, after hearing his father story from his grandmother mouth he came to understand that his father never treated him as an stranger other than in words, for he truly cared for him. As such, the reason for his (already toned down because of the years) hatred dissapeared. Of course this is only from a logical POV, but coupled with the complete empathy he can feel for him since he is literally in the very same situation ,it is not difficult to imagine his train of thought.
Ascaloth
2009-02-13, 22:06
You seem to be giving him a lot of benefit of the doubt here in the distance he walked away and how long he was gone. If you watch the scene it seems pretty obvious he went much farther than that (He passes several things before he reaches the steps leading to the overlook of the sea). On the time too, when he gets back to Ushio it's clearly darker outside (Evening) when he gets back. And finally, no sign of invertebrates? High grass (Or in this case, mainly flowers) fields are an area where you definitely have to watch out for snakes. Besides that, leaving kids unsupervised, she easily could've gotten scared/lost running off trying to find him.
Time to pull up the Japanese Studies 1101E material again. :D
Almost all of the Mountain Preschool's three- and four-year-old children had experienced numerous brief separations from their mothers by the time they entered preschool. Most mothers were straightforward and unapologetic about the fact that they often left their child to play at a friend's house if they had errands to do, or so that the children could enjoy each other's companionship. Furthermore, almost all mothers were in the habit of leaving their preschool children at home unattended to "watch the house" (rusuban suru) while they went to the supermarket or on various errands for thirty minutes or so at a time. At the extreme end of the spectrum of fourteen mothers queried was one who had recently taken a part-time job and routinely left her four- and seven-year-old children at home alone for two to three hours, or dropped them off to play unsupervised in a nearby park if her brother's wife who lived in the neighborhood was unable to look in on them.
* Learning to Become Part of the Group: The Japanese Child's Transition to Preschool Life, by Lois Peak © 1989 The Society for Japanese Studies
Taken in the context of how real-life Japanese mothers tend to leave their children unattended for extended periods of time, what Tomoya did here certainly doesn't seem all that unusual. ;)
GreatTeacherKen
2009-02-13, 22:06
I was fine until Ushio said,
"Because it's the first one Daddy picked."
:T_T: 10/10
Master Chibi
2009-02-13, 22:29
I cried like a bitch.
Yeah, you read that right.
Someone hug me.
:(
SnackPacs
2009-02-13, 22:56
I was just crying through the entire thing and then when Ushio talked about crying in her daddy's arms, it just really couldn't hold off.
First time I've sobbed out loud in a long time. Finally, maybe we get some happiness. Tomoya's done what I hoped, by realizing he can treasure his time with Ushio from now on, be a real father and be there for his daughter.
It was just really beautiful. Another perfect episode for me.
It'll be interesting to see how things are handled concerning his reuniting with his father. Hopefully... They can get a hug or something like that in and officially reconcile. :D
OmegaPhlare
2009-02-13, 22:57
Hurray! I love the after effects! Chibi cried like a bitch, which is amazing. Someone who hated Nagisa has cried tears of joy for something that Nagisa put into motion with all of her love. :)
Earlier I stated that I merely had two tears roll down my eyes when I first saw this episode. But now 18 hours later I've watched the episode again and did more crying. This episode has captivated me like no other, and I'm in shock that it is getting so well received.
Avacado Burger
2009-02-13, 22:59
10/10
Dammit Clannad! The tears... They won't stop flowing!
SnackPacs
2009-02-13, 23:06
I cried like a bitch.
Yeah, you read that right.
Someone hug me.
:(
Clannad: It brings out the teary eyed softie in all of us. :D
RandomFlameStrike
2009-02-13, 23:16
I cried like a bitch.
Yeah, you read that right.
Someone hug me.
:(
Sarcasam?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!? IT'S A TRAP! Who the heck stole you account ?
Master Chibi
2009-02-13, 23:27
Haha.
I'm totally serious.
I was wiping my tears away the entire episode.
:(
Haha.
I'm totally serious.
I was wiping my tears away the entire episode.
It was beautiful though, wasn't it?
MeoTwister5
2009-02-14, 00:00
We all (or most of us) cried like bitches.
And we're damn proud of it!:D
MissInformed
2009-02-14, 00:02
I have to admit, about 80% of the reason I read this thread was to see what Chibi had to say. :heh:
I thought this episode was brilliant. I'm not one to elaborate much on what made it great (I hardly ever even post at all). But it was one of those rare episodes where my husband and I just sat there for a while after it was over...just sort of taking it in still. Very well done. Sigh.
Ok after rewatching the episode for the third time in 2hrs, the one thing that really bothers me is the distance between tomoya and his grandmother. Everytime she calls him Tomoya san, I just feel like a knife peircing me, its as if their not related, I mean my grandmother never calls me by my full name, its alwasy the nickname she used when my mother had me so the distance that seperates them seems almost unfathomable. Other than that this is the best episode this season of any show, maybe of all time.
? It really varies from family to family. My mother's family is rather uptight so outside of the cousin''s circle we treat other relatives with formal speech. Moreover Japanese is a language of formality, and overthrowing those layers can only be done with real mutual trust and by knowing each other to a deep level. Family is no exception to that. Especially if the last time you saw each other was ~15 years ago.
Master Chibi
2009-02-14, 00:19
It was beautiful though, wasn't it?
Absolutely.
I have to admit, about 80% of the reason I read this thread was to see what Chibi had to say.
Haha, I'm sure by now I've built some type of reputation in the weekly threads, but I can't deny how I felt with this week's episode.
;_;
I wanted to see how far I could go without crying.
I just started sobbing in the scene Tomoya takes Ushio in his arms. My gosh, this is too sad. ;__;
RandomFlameStrike
2009-02-14, 00:36
Absolutely.
Haha, I'm sure by now I've built some type of reputation in the weekly threads, but I can't deny how I felt with this week's episode.
;_;
XD that's kind of true, I expected a contraversal comment of "Meh it's about time Tomoya got his act togheter".
Master Chibi
2009-02-14, 00:39
XD that's kind of true, I expected a contraversal comment of "Meh it's about time Tomoya got his act togheter".
Well to be honest at the begining of the episode I was furious at him, and it occured to me that acting the way he was for five entire years is more or less inexcusable, but then one thing lead to another and before I knew it this episode had made me it's complete and utter bitch.
D:
lateraldeath
2009-02-14, 00:48
like a few others here, i don't post or vote much, but this epi made an easy exception, the episode produced the happiest crying I've ever felt, tears were rolling down but i was smiling the entire time.
? It really varies from family to family. My mother's family is rather uptight so outside of the cousin''s circle we treat other relatives with formal speech. Moreover Japanese is a language of formality, and overthrowing those layers can only be done with real mutual trust and by knowing each other to a deep level. Family is no exception to that. Especially if the last time you saw each other was ~15 years ago.
see i'm asain too, and I get all that filial piety stuff its the way I was brought up, but there seems to so much distance between direct blood, I know my grandmother would never add an honorific to my name, though I always make sure to show respect. I mean I would never use anything like ojjisan, which is actually quite disrespectful, but having a grandmother, call her own grandson san, just felt a little awkward. Even so family is a little different, in asain culture, atleast in the culture I grew up in blood is thicker than water, and before genetic screening paternity was determined if your blood and the blood of your child combined in a vat of water. What I'm trying to say is that family is different from close friends, there is something special about family in asain culture, if you consider a friend part of your family you actually mean it like a blood brother, so you have these two people, no matter how distant they are, they have the same blood, and you can tell even though shes somewhat distant, the touch on the face is the defining answer that she still considers him something precious in her heart, so thats why I felt the words could have had more warmth to them. Yea I know it varies, but that touch at the end before he goes back Ushio just really felt out of place with all the tomoya-san. I'm not saying that your wrong I'm just saying from my expierence that part just felt a little awkward. But I guess my family was just close I guess, I guess thats the product of a farmer, keep your family close and your friends close because at the end of the day you have nothing else.
I couldn't help but feel the way that Ushio felt "lonely and sad" without Tomoya was slightly strange. Even if Tomoya wasn't there for her, shouldn't Akio acting as her father figure be enough to allay her need for her real father? It's possible that Sanae and Akio raised her with the mindset that they would eventually hand her over back to Tomoya, but honestly, I feel that it would've benefited Ushio more if they raised her like their own child, instead of someone else's. Really, five years of loneliness outweighs the pain of leaving one set of guardians for another, IMO.
And, Tomoya's grandmother looks younger than real life women the age of Sanae... jeez, we already have a GMILF in Sanae, and now we have an arguable GGMILF...
kk2extreme
2009-02-14, 01:54
wow, this one has more 10/10 ratio than any other shows, period :D
This is great ep and it could not have the emotional impact if it wasn't for ep 16.
im surprised that i found myseft crying more than 16 :heh:, i was holding it in when ushio say papa, and went to full bursted crying mode when tomoya is telling story about nagisa. i wonder if i could cry even more than this in the future eps :heh:
Reckoner
2009-02-14, 01:59
This episode earns an extremely rare rating of a 10 from me. I had trouble holding in tears throughout this whole episode, and the scene of Tomoya reminiscing just made me finally break down. I wonder how the rest of this series will pan out...
No. no no. We are not getting to GGMILF territory. She looks good for her age (she's got to be at least 60) and I know women that do look fairly good at 60, but she is not of the Key MILF line. Good thing too. You wouldn't want to tempt the gamers (Tomoya) with a GGMILF at this point since the haremy-like stuff is long over...also they are blood related.
Now if this was Sanae's mother instead...oh dear god I don't want to think about the mental damage that would cause. Imagine if they set a (third) Clannad game up with Ushio as a high school senior...and it got an After Story were she has a child...and the player has to at some point see Sanae "I'm 17 years old" Furukawa.....
EphemeralDream
2009-02-14, 03:57
This is the first time i've ever cried (in an anime) to something that isn't someone dying. Man my heartstrings feel sore.
One of the things I loved was how fleshed-out Ushio is even though she's only had 2 episodes worth of screentime. She reminds me a lot of Tomoya, before he met Nagisa, only that she has Nagisa's innocence.
Skullator
2009-02-14, 05:24
Very well done.
Nice 10/10 ratio.
rave_master16
2009-02-14, 06:40
My God! T_T Nagisa!
Ushio! Two scenes that really made me choked up and cry buckets.
1.When Ushio said "Papa" was really the initiator, and when she said about places to cry and hug her father made me cry.
2. When Tomoya is telling Ushio about her mother, I cried buckets when he suddenly stopped and remembers Nagisa~ This shows how much he really loved Nagisa.
I tell you guys. The most painful in your life is reminiscing the memories of your dead loved ones. Bittersweet it is to show this in Valentines DAY. Nagisa T_T.
Now will you excuse me, I'm going to the bathroom and cry a river.
MeoTwister5
2009-02-14, 06:43
And speaking of Valentine's day evening here, I'm spending it at home studying instead of other things I could be doing.
Such is life.
...................
I cried like a bitch.
Yeah, you read that right.
Someone hug me.
:(
/hug
/pat
:heh:
I kinda feel like being a jerk and raise last week's heated discussion again, but...
Well now everyone know Ushio is not snapping her dad out by standing there looking adorable.
Despite her age, she lived strongly.
She is not just looked like Nagisa, she carries her resolution to live strongly, with or without realizing it. (I would like to think so)
Ah, does anyone remember the title of the Mabinogi arrangement of Nagisa tune?
Haha Kara Ko e Uketsugareru Chiisana Uta
a small song, passed on from Mother to Child.
:eyespin:
ok I rewatched the episode again, and I kept getting choked up anticipating the sad moments, and then I finally watched the preview for next week, and thats when I lost it. Oh wow preview chalks it up to be great. This will be one of those episodes were I probably will always cry from watching, there is no other media especially fictional that has ever made me feel this way. Its really scary.
To bump up a question someone else had, are the translators working on the HD widescreen versions of these episodes? There is a rather strick bunch that won't watch Clannad unless it is in HD widescreen.
yep ss-eclipse is there usualy a 5-7 days after release but usually I just stream it so, wouldn't know exactly when their release hits
Tempester
2009-02-14, 11:38
yep ss-eclipse is there usualy a 5-7 days after release but usually I just stream it so, wouldn't know exactly when their release hits
5-7 days?
Well, Clannad After Story 11 was released in WS 4 weeks ago, and it isn't subbed yet. :rolleyes:
oic, yea my bad I was talking about 1024X576 h264 encodes. wish I had the disk space for hd ws releases
Vegard Aune
2009-02-14, 11:52
oic, yea my bad I was talking about 1024X576 h264 encodes. wish I had the disk space for hd ws releases
Um, so was Tempester...
And the HD-releases take up like, 5 megabytes more than the SD-ones.
ok then, yes their like a week behind, those that release it as I have said are ss-eclipse, I thought they might have been talking about bluray or dvd releases but yea, ss-eclipse is pretty on the ball when it comes to being current
hope its ok to talk about fansubs since im pretty sure after story isn't liscensed yet?
Vegard Aune
2009-02-14, 12:38
ok then, yes their like a week behind, those that release it as I have said are ss-eclipse, I thought they might have been talking about bluray or dvd releases but yea, ss-eclipse is pretty on the ball when it comes to being current
hope its ok to talk about fansubs since im pretty sure after story isn't liscensed yet?
Um, the thing here was, they're more or less up to date on the 4:3-releases, but the widescreen-version is WAY behind. The widescreen-version of episode 15 aired this week, and Eclipse's last widescreen-release was episode 10...
And on an unrelated note: Episode 16 made me change my rating for this series to a 10/10, and at that point, I put it in the second place on my top 10. This episode, combined with the first DVD of season one, which I just finished watching, made me put it in first place. Yes, Clannad is now officially my favourite series ever. So much for the "No way it's gonna be better than Kanon"-statements I made back in Yukine's arc...
I only have one complaint about this episode:
IT SHOULD'VE BEEN A GUNDAM!!!1!1!112@1
Yeah,it 's gundam.:D
http://g.imagehost.org/0483/5i8p.jpg
She doesn't want a Flag ;(
yeah,it 's gundam.:d
http://g.imagehost.org/0483/5i8p.jpg
OMFG ROFLMFAO I laughed so hard when I saw that.
Ack, laughing too much... I'm coughing...
But, THAT'S NOT A GUNDAM! IT'S A FLAG!
GameMaster0000
2009-02-14, 13:14
That is seiyuu joke too.
Graham seiyuu = Tomoya seiyuu
WOW. If I had to sum up the episode in 1 word it would that be... excellent excellent episode... I'm so glad I started Clannad again.. amazing
Generic Asian Guy
2009-02-14, 14:35
Gorgeous episode =] Can't wait to see the next one.
OmegaPhlare
2009-02-14, 14:37
Well now everyone know Ushio is not snapping her dad out by standing there looking adorable.
Despite her age, she lived strongly.
She is not just looked like Nagisa, she carries her resolution to live strongly, with or without realizing it. (I would like to think so)
See, there we go. She wasn't just adorable which made Tomoya come back to his old self, it was more about Tomoya's forgotten past. Now Ushio, saying that her toy was unique; that was icing on the cake =). That she loves mama and papa so much reminds me of Nagisa. But maybe I'm over-thinking it; wouldn't most 5 year olds love their parents?
Ah, does anyone remember the title of the Mabinogi arrangement of Nagisa tune?
Haha Kara Ko e Uketsugareru Chiisana Uta
a small song, passed on from Mother to Child.
:eyespin:
Wait, what? Are you talking about the computer game? I play it, but I don't think I've heard Nagisa in that game. I assume that you are not talking about a player composition, but an actual song in the game. If so, in what area or who do you talk to, to hear it?
Wait, what? Are you talking about the computer game? I play it, but I don't think I've heard Nagisa in that game. I assume that you are not talking about a player composition, but an actual song in the game. If so, in what area or who do you talk to, to hear it?
Mabinogi is an arrange album which contains a selection of songs from the visual novel Clannad, remixed by Hideki Higuchi. This album was released as a bonus item, included with the limited edition first printing of the PC version of the game released on April 28, 2004 by Key Sounds Label.
Wiki entry.
By computer game did you mean the visual novel?
Sinestra
2009-02-14, 15:34
I must admit i cried like a little baby once Ushio called Tomoya daddy. I always wondered if she knew if Tomoya was her father and it was just a beautiful moment. Also, Tomoya' grandmother breaking the wall despair around Tomoya sometimes thats all it takes.
Sanae set everything up perfectly (which is kind of scary) instilling in Ushio that its ok to cry in the bathroom or only in daddys arms. There was a very important reason for Sanae to tell Ushio that and it payed off. Tomoya will find joy again through his daughter because she is part of him and Nagisa so its like shes not gone. The time they spent together was heart moving and the train ride back with them holding hands and Tomoya telling Ushio about mommy (Nagisa) sent my buckets of tears flowing again thank god i had a towel lol. I think that cry that Tomoya had while talking about Nagisa was release he needed to do it but now he knows he can talk about Nagisa with joy to Ushio so that she knows just what kind of loving person her mother was. Ushio was lonely all this time without her father Tomoya has time to make up for but she accepted him without a doubt and its not to late for him to be involved in her life shes only 5. Dear god is she cute though so many cute moments with her.
Next episode now the final obstacle to overcome Tomoya's dad and his despair. Looks like the Big Dango family will be reborn.
10/10 no doubt on that very touching and very moving there is a lot of lessons in life that we can learn from this episode. I hope that Tomoya's grandmother can heal her sons heart by him going back home.
lol at the haters, psssh, w/e doesn't change the fact that the episode is perfectly directed, I mean compared to other animes, its by far one of the best episodes ever, and even compared to scripted tv, its one of the standouts of best overall, if you had this against stuff like grey's anatomy, you would instantly put that stuff to shame, not everybody will be please but atleast in my mind, this episode will be pretty dear to my heart, I hope I never forget the feeling I got when I first watched this episode, the only other feeling that is even close to what I felt was when I first started watching anime, the dub of Galaxy Express. Yea I believe that we should all question others opinions and find out for ourselves, and for the most part people accept that and thank goodness. Random gibberjabber off.
SkoolRumble4Ya
2009-02-14, 15:53
Man this was the best episode I've seen so far. When Okazaki and Ushio hug each other almost gave me happy tears. Seriously who can actually give this a 1?
Yarpirate
2009-02-14, 16:49
A EPIC episode. very nice climax.
I have never cried like this ever before.. like a little baby even thou i am 20 years old pff.
The_TempesT
2009-02-14, 16:57
Absolutely amazing episode. Even a guy like me shed a couple tears during the train scene when Tomoya tried to describe Nagisa, and it finally hit him that she was gone from his life (hence why he started crying so hard, because he had been avoiding the truth for so long). Simply a great moment and I won't ever forget it.
God I love this anime. 10/10
OMG Ushio was so cute and Tomoya was such a jerk for not being a good father until now. :frustrated: I can't believe how good this episode was and this is Clannad after all. :D
This episode also made me realize how much I miss Nagisa. :( I want to give it a 10/10 but I still don't like Tomoya any much, but Ushio being so adorable in this makes it at least a 9/10.
Rasqual Twilight
2009-02-14, 17:55
"Kleenex lot up"
That was an absolutely moving episode.
Absolutely amazing episode. Even a guy like me shed a couple tears during the train scene when Tomoya tried to describe Nagisa, and it finally hit him that she was gone from his life (hence why he started crying so hard, because he had been avoiding the truth for so long). Simply a great moment and I won't ever forget it.
God I love this anime. 10/10
Dude exactly the same thing for me! I was like wow....tears lol. Such a good episode!!!
Why would Ushio not know he's the dad? Sanae has taken Ushio to Tomoya's apartment a few times. So I'm sure she told her.
Oh dang this series is still going on? Guess I have some catching up to do. From what I read, it looks like they mixed the series with the movie.... no?
Oh dang this series is still going on? Guess I have some catching up to do. From what I read, it looks like they mixed the series with the movie.... no?
Well, no, the visual novel that both the series and film are based on was just too long to really be contained by one series and keep intact. The film isn't really a good adaptation of the story; there's too much to really cram into 90 minutes.
DragoZERO
2009-02-14, 22:01
http://img90.exs.cx/img90/2365/k1ocray.gif
I had sad tears and happy tears and almost cried.. again. I've teared up with other series with maybe one episode, two at most but this.. its been more and far too many. This series is done wonderfully.
Now then *wipes eyes* .... Sanae reading books and Akio playing baseball.. classic. The sunflower field was a nice touch and the grandmother waiting on the hill.. very nice. I would have liked a short scene with her being introduced to Ushio though. And props to Sanae for setting this all up.. she is kick ass, plain and simple.
Also.. what is with the subtitles of "Daddy" when Ushio says "Papa" - shouldn't the subtitle be "Papa" - it really bugs me. lol.
KaneDragon
2009-02-14, 22:47
I don't like voting on episodes, but I had to give this one a 10/10 just for being cry-worthy. Just like most everyone else, it seems. :heh: Felt good. :)
http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/6328/ushioanddangort9.jpg
Dango!
HNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!
Sorrow-K
2009-02-14, 22:57
A beautiful and profound episode.
AHHHHHHHHHHH, I just watched ep 18 after a long break from Clannad and I'm crying. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH... damnit! I got quite a few episodes to be doing some catching up on. Hope there will be a good ending, something like Clannad ep 24, as in Tomoyo taking up the heroine role!
BakaOnna
2009-02-14, 23:41
Even after watching the movie and knowing what would happen, this was still a beautiful episode. So well done. T.T
And damn, that's the highest percentage of 10's I've seen thus far. :heh:
OceanBlue
2009-02-14, 23:54
Wow, I cried a lot. I was close to crying for almost half the episode, starting from Tomoya's father's story, and I basically went through stages....
I'm going to end up listening to Toki wo Kizamu Uta for a long time again.
I haven't said anything about this series but this episode just skewered me (in a good way).
This episode is simply beautiful.....
achirist
2009-02-15, 00:44
0/10
I can't believe how ridiculous, stupid, and insane the scene with Tomoya and his grandmother was. Beyond the conventional morality ignorantly displayed, it is clear to me that Tomoya made the right decision; his father did not. His father was terrible, was an abusive, neglectful, depressive alcoholic, and there really is no excuse for that since he also insisted on taking his child along that road with him and ruining Tomoya's life. This episode tells you that you are supposed to ignore endless years of abuse and hatred in favor of a single moment when the parents were nice. If someone isn't fit to raise a child, then they shouldn't, and shouldn't have to either; but Tomoya has been completely denied an emotional life, first by his father and grandmother, and then by Nagisa's cruel, ignorant decision to insist on having a child when there was a high chance she would not survive with it. Perhaps she could have remembered that Tomoya's mother died when he was very young, and thus that her dying like that could have a huge impact on him, and held back. Perhaps she could have also tried to understand more fully that his father was abusive and stop with the petty moralizing. But no, instead of young people living free lives and experiencing their emotions, we have a shrine to abusive families; and the delusion that because they bought you candy and 'worked hard' (but not at building social change and better working conditions) everything they did to you as a child was excusable.
Tomoya should have fallen in love with another of the girls after Nagisa died, and gone far, far away.
I can't believe how ridiculous, stupid, and insane the scene with Tomoya and his grandmother was.
Hmm... I kind of understand what you say, and from a certain POV and can't contest what you say as nothing but right. However I think that the clue part was when we were told that both Atsuko's and Naoyuki's families opposed the marriage. The seriese doesn't provide us much information beyond that, however we can deduce that there wasn't anyone that was willing to take care of Tomoya. (In my country the responsibility would legally go to the maternal grandparents, but I don't know how that works in Japan). In any case that he took care of Tomoya was probably Tomoya's only way out of a childhood of neglect and of being the death weight in a foreign family.
Now, from the visual imagery we get at this episode and from the scarce information we get at the game, we can deduce that at large Tomoya's childhood per se was reasonabliy happy. It was only when Tomoya entered his teen years that Naoyuki entered his downwards spiral. Certainly their relationship wasn't one of hatred and abuse, though we can do say that it was a psychologically stressful environment for both.
This is when I'd like to insert some of my personal experience. Although it was on vastly different circumstances, I also grew up in a psychologically... difficult environment because some circumstances one of my parents had. As such the relationship between me, my siblings and that parent grew strained. For my younger siblings it is still difficult to even have a conversation and there is still much resentment, however I, either because I'm growing old and I tend to forget or I'm just being mature, I don't know, I accept that much of the problems we had were due to the wrong circumstances, and not because of a malicious intent. My parent *truly* loved me and *truly* wised and still wishes the best for me, even if at those times everything became twisted and resulted in the worst possible way. As such, although I definitely can't forget, I can forgive and try to mend the relationship.
I don't think that I'm telling an extremely strange story to everyone. It is just the cycle that most humans go to. From seeing our parents as divine beings when we are kids, to seeing them as lowly, faulty humans when we are teens, to seeings them as your equals when you are a young adult and as an elder and source of inspiration when you become a parent youself. It's just that in some people's cases the cycle reaches some extreme points in the scale, but ideally most people come to the same conclusion.
From seeing our parents as divine beings when we are kids, to seeing them as lowly, faulty humans when we are teens, to seeings them as your equals when you are a young adult and as an elder and source of inspiration when you become a parent youself.
You said it all with this right here. As we grow we learn and develop our own personality, ideas, belief, and individuality. And Achirist hit it on almost 100% with realism, so can't argue or want to (because I feel he's mostly right) on anything he said.
Bonta Kun
2009-02-15, 01:25
This episode is simply beautiful.....
I'll quote this as I can't stop crying to think of anyway to describe this ep
Ascaloth
2009-02-15, 01:27
To add on to what Proto already pointed out, there was plenty of evidence pointed out in the Episode 16 thread that Nagisa's decision to go through with the pregnancy was in fact a considered one where she actually had a good chance of surviving it had fate not conspired to bring about the worst possible circumstances on the day of her delivery. Therefore, your assertion that Nagisa was "cruel" and "ignorant" for going through with a pregnancy she would have a "high chance" she "would not survive" is not only false, but also comes across as an attempt at Proof by Assertion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_assertion).
[removed by a moderator]
Hyperion
2009-02-15, 01:32
Dammit, I cried twice in this episode...
Don't read if you haven't watched it...
Don't say I didn't warn you...
Once at hearing "Papa" for the first time and second time during the flashbacks during Tomoya's reminiscing scenes.
Rewatching the episode!
This was bar-none: THE. BEST. EPISODE. SO. FAR!
(Out of all two seasons.)
Same here. As soon as you could hear it in Ushio's voice, I lost it. And on the train near the end also. I'm still crying even after its over.
My favorite episode! If a show can make me cry, twice or more during one episode, it deserves a perfect 10.
therationalpi
2009-02-15, 01:36
This episode tells you that you are supposed to ignore endless years of abuse and hatred in favor of a single moment when the parents were nice.I think you are reading more into Tomoya's backstory than you probably should. You seem to paint the picture that Tomoya was repeatedly abused by a drunken father throughout his childhood. Certainly, this is unforgivable, and I don't think the show is trying to condone this sort of action. What actually occurred, from what Tomoya said in season one, was that he and his father got in a fight when he entered highschool. This can certainly happen when you have two grown men living in the same house, although it isn't good behavior. Naturally, this drove a wedge between Tomoya and Naoyuki, and Tomoya was never able to forgive his father.
In the end, Tomoya had let his anger at this incident make him forget about everything his father had done to raise him. Naoyuki wasn't in the best situation, but he tried to give Tomoya everything he could.
So, instead of "Endless years of a abuse and hatred" you had "Endless years of loving care," and instead of "A single moment when the parents were nice" you have "A single moment where the things went wrong."
sikvod00
2009-02-15, 02:03
Holy crap, Sanae is a GMILF and a mastermind.:eyespin:
cyberdemon
2009-02-15, 02:44
Been pretty long since I've felt the urge to cry like that. Impressive for a show to do that to an emotionally stunted man like me who hasn't cried in years. lol. Really hit at me most with that last picture of the episode. Seeing her like that was too much for me.
about Tomoya's father. He seemed like he was a very good father who put everything he had into raising Tomoya but made a horrible mistake when his reason for living was growing further and further away from him.
Been pretty long since I've felt the urge to cry like that. Impressive for a show to do that to an emotionally stunted man like me who hasn't cried in years. lol. Really hit at me most with that last picture of the episode. Seeing her like that was too much for me.
about Tomoya's father. He seemed like he was a very good father who put everything he had into raising Tomoya but made a horrible mistake when his reason for living was growing further and further away from him.
^This sums up my feelings nicely.
Kinny Riddle
2009-02-15, 04:11
0/10
I can't believe how ridiculous, stupid, and insane the scene with Tomoya and his grandmother was. Beyond the conventional morality ignorantly displayed, it is clear to me that Tomoya made the right decision; his father did not. His father was terrible, was an abusive, neglectful, depressive alcoholic, and there really is no excuse for that since he also insisted on taking his child along that road with him and ruining Tomoya's life. This episode tells you that you are supposed to ignore endless years of abuse and hatred in favor of a single moment when the parents were nice. If someone isn't fit to raise a child, then they shouldn't, and shouldn't have to either; but Tomoya has been completely denied an emotional life, first by his father and grandmother, and then by Nagisa's cruel, ignorant decision to insist on having a child when there was a high chance she would not survive with it. Perhaps she could have remembered that Tomoya's mother died when he was very young, and thus that her dying like that could have a huge impact on him, and held back. Perhaps she could have also tried to understand more fully that his father was abusive and stop with the petty moralizing. But no, instead of young people living free lives and experiencing their emotions, we have a shrine to abusive families; and the delusion that because they bought you candy and 'worked hard' (but not at building social change and better working conditions) everything they did to you as a child was excusable.
Tomoya should have fallen in love with another of the girls after Nagisa died, and gone far, far away.
I am completely flabbergasted at how you managed to shift the blame all onto Tomoya's dad and Nagisa, and how you fail to see how moving this episode is supposed to be.
It is all well and good saying everyone is entitled to their opinion, but some people think that just because they have an opinion, that makes it a valid one, whether those opinions are in any way shape or form, substantiated or valid.
Firstly, there is no right or wrong answer into whether Nagisa wants to have Ushio. It is completely insensitive of you to portray her as selfish in wanting to give birth to her child. And as Ascaloth has said, Nagisa went through all considerations and accepted that it is worth taking the risk. The fact she passed away was really due to bad luck and nothing else.
Secondly, the wedge between Tomoya and his dad only really begun since his dad injured Tomoya's shoulder in a fit of rage. It does not mean that he was abusive to Tomoya before that. Even Tomoya admits that. It is very easy to get very angry with a person to forget all the love that happened before for a very long time. I say this by personal experience, when a family member once betrayed me for something, I didn't speak to him for months.
Granted Tomoya's dad was partially guilty, but I cannot accept you making a complete scapegoat out of him. The scene with Tomoya's grandmother was important because it allowed Tomoya to see past his prejudice against his father since that incident with his shoulder, you obviously have not.
achirist
2009-02-15, 04:12
Hmm... I kind of understand what you say, and from a certain POV and can't contest what you say as nothing but right. However I think that the clue part was when we were told that both Atsuko's and Naoyuki's families opposed the marriage. (In my country the responsibility would legally go to the maternal grandparents, but I don't know how that works in Japan). In any case that he took care of Tomoya was probably Tomoya's only way out of a childhood of neglect and of being the death weight in a foreign family.
Now, from the visual imagery we get at this episode and from the scarce information we get at the game, we can deduce that at large Tomoya's childhood per se was reasonabliy happy. It was only when Tomoya entered his teen years that Naoyuki entered his downwards spiral. Certainly their relationship wasn't one of hatred and abuse, though we can do say that it was a psychologically stressful environment for both.
This is when I'd like to insert some of my personal experience. Although it was on vastly different circumstances, I also grew up in a psychologically... difficult environment because some circumstances one of my parents had. As such the relationship between me, my siblings and that parent grew strained. For my younger siblings it is still difficult to even have a conversation and there is still much resentment, however I, either because I'm growing old and I tend to forget or I'm just being mature, I don't know, I accept that much of the problems we had were due to the wrong circumstances, and not because of a malicious intent. My parent *truly* loved me and *truly* wised and still wishes the best for me, even if at those times everything became twisted and resulted in the worst possible way. As such, although I definitely can't forget, I can forgive and try to mend the relationship.
I don't think that I'm telling an extremely strange story to everyone. It is just the cycle that most humans go to. From seeing our parents as divine beings when we are kids, to seeing them as lowly, faulty humans when we are teens, to seeings them as your equals when you are a young adult and as an elder and source of inspiration when you become a parent youself. It's just that in some people's cases the cycle reaches some extreme points in the scale, but ideally most people come to the same conclusion.
I thought the grandmother implied that there were other options, but that Tomoya's father had made a point of insisting that the boy stay with him. And I don't think that I can say that staying with his father was the only way out of a situation of neglect, because as we know, that is how things ended up in their situation. Of course, if the grandmother herself had completely rejected Tomoya and refused any help even after the accident, then she has a lot of nerve giving a speech like this and telling him what kind of a father N was when she wasn’t the one living with him (indeed, it all seemed to be about her and letting her feel good about her son, not about helping Tomoya.) The grandmother did not say that he had only become drunk and violent once; if that is really what she was saying, I imagine she would have said so and we would have seen imagery of that very critical encounter. I certainly do not believe that it was an isolated incident, but even if it was Tomoya's proclaiming that "I was the terrible person" was just completely wrong, and ignoring his own body that bears an eternal handicap, his own life that didn't deserve to be messed up (a useless arm, an unstable, barren home, the chance to get a better job lost irrevocably) no matter what circumstances that his father insisted on bringing him into.
I do agree that most people do take this attitude of accepting everything their parents had done and forgiving as a reflex, even if it makes them suffer or they really don't want to. But I grew up in a very difficult situation myself, but also one that made it clear the blame was on someone, the adults, and not the circumstances or myself. Some people won’t grow into drunken rages no matter the circumstances of poverty and single parenthood, grief. And I don’t think that things should be automatically excused, especially not by the person who had to directly suffer under them.
-
As for Nagisa, while it was much more blatant in the movie version that Nagisa made a choice as to whether she should go on living or Ushio should be born, I largely stand by what I said, because it was an attempt to empathize with Tomoya himself, who might very naturally and with reason have felt some anger and regret as to why she insisted on going ahead with the baby knowing the medical risks as they did.
zzeroparticle
2009-02-15, 04:24
Man, that was one poignant episode. Few episodes in any anime series have come close to turning up the waterworks but this one did the trick. Looks like the resolution's in sight!
Kinny Riddle
2009-02-15, 04:29
I thought the grandmother implied that there were other options, but that Tomoya's father had made a point of insisting that the boy stay with him. And I don't think that I can say that staying with his father was the only way out of a situation of neglect, because as we know, that is how things ended up in their situation.
Of course, if the grandmother herself had completely rejected Tomoya and refused any help even after the accident, then she has a lot of nerve giving a speech like this and telling him what kind of a father N was when she wasn’t the one living with him (indeed, it all seemed to be about her and letting her feel good about her son, not about helping Tomoya.)
I'm sorry, but you're jumping to conclusions here. You don't know that, and you're hoping it is so just to fit your argument. It is also likely that Tomoya's dad decided to raise Tomoya without Shino's help.
The grandmother did not say that he had only become drunk and violent once; if that is really what she was saying, I imagine she would have said so and we would have seen imagery of that very critical encounter. I certainly do not believe that it was an isolated incident, but even if it was Tomoya's proclaiming that "I was the terrible person" was just completely wrong, and ignoring his own body that bears an eternal handicap, his own life that didn't deserve to be messed up (a useless arm, an unstable, barren home, the chance to get a better job lost irrevocably) no matter what circumstances that his father insisted on bringing him into.
I repeat, NEVER was it said that Tomoya's dad was abusive to Tomoya before he injured Tomoya's shoulder in an argument, causing Tomoya to hate him. The author's intention was for Tomoya, and the audience as well, to forgive him, all along. This pretty much implies that Shino was genuine in her words for me. If you can't even trust the author on that, then I have nothing to say.
I do agree that most people do take this attitude of accepting everything their parents had done and forgiving as a reflex, even if it makes them suffer or they really don't want to. But I grew up in a very difficult situation myself, but also one that made it clear the blame was on someone, the adults, and not the circumstances or myself. Some people won’t grow into drunken rages no matter the circumstances of poverty and single parenthood, grief. And I don’t think that things should be automatically excused, especially not by the person who had to directly suffer under them.
In the end, it all boils down to: Stop putting yourself into Tomoya's shoes, you are not Tomoya.
As for Nagisa, while it was much more blatant in the movie version that Nagisa made a choice as to whether she should go on living or Ushio should be born, I largely stand by what I said, because it was an attempt to empathize with Tomoya himself, who might very naturally and with reason have felt some anger and regret as to why she insisted on going ahead with the baby knowing the medical risks as they did.
The Clannad Movie was definitely not canon.
Never once did Tomoya blamed Nagisa for her decision. He respected it, and now he's coming to terms with carrying on Nagisa's dream, and her parents' dream, through Ushio. If you really want to empathize with him, then accept that it is really bad luck, instead of finding someone to blame.
It's just like your soccer team because the opponent managed to sneak a goal in even though you were the one doing all the attacking. You can be justified in feeling angry and finding someone to blame, like the manager, the players, the ref, etc. But sometimes, Lady Luck is just against you.
Master Chibi
2009-02-15, 04:34
Well realistically speaking, the show does shit to really portray the realtionship between Tomoya and his father as anything outside of Tomoya hating his ass for screwing up his shoulder and being a drunkard at this point in his life.
Throwing that all away in a 4 minute conversation atop a cliff with a scenic view is, well Clannad being Clannad. It's like getting mad at Nagisa wanting to give birth to Ushio. Sure it's COMPLETE bullshit that they couldn't get to the hospital (among a billion other factors to consider about the situation) but the woman had to be shoved into the UGLIEST conditions possible because, well, that's Clannad being Clannad. There is no viable explanation otherwise.
Oh, you want to make up with your daughter Tomoya? Well, instead of doing it at home, normally, we're going to have you do it in this gigantic, gorgeous field of flowers during the most beautiful sunset you'll ever see in your damn life.
That's Clannad being Clannad.
:eyespin:
0/10???Blasphemy!!!Clannad ~After Story~ may be not masterpiece but you are going to insult it."Clannad" is in the same grade with movie of "Uwe Boll"!!!Oh,I cann't stand!!!
Ottocycle
2009-02-15, 04:49
Well realistically speaking, the show does shit to really portray the realtionship between Tomoya and his father as anything outside of Tomoya hating his ass for screwing up his shoulder and being a drunkard at this point in his life.
Throwing that all away in a 4 minute conversation atop a cliff with a scenic view is, well Clannad being Clannad. It's like getting mad at Nagisa wanting to give birth to Ushio. Sure it's COMPLETE bullshit that they couldn't get to the hospital (among a billion other factors to consider about the situation) but the woman had to be shoved into the UGLIEST conditions possible because, well, that's Clannad being Clannad. There is no viable explanation otherwise.
Oh, you want to make up with your daughter Tomoya? Well, instead of doing it at home, normally, we're going to have you do it in this gigantic, gorgeous field of flowers during the most beautiful sunset you'll ever see in your damn life.
That's Clannad being Clannad.
:eyespin:
Indeed a post for the realists, I can't agree more. But damn I still love the ep.
There will always be people who'll never suspend their disbelief who'll keep asking why this or that happened, though I don't mind that at all. For me, if it makes for entertaining viewing, why not?
But sometimes, Lady Luck is just against you.
Key is the cheating gamemaster who loaded Nagisa's dice so it rolled 1 in her fortitude roll. :p
TenkenXD
2009-02-15, 05:32
Interesting.
Interesting toy.
Lol, yeah i totally spotted that too. Good eye!
Anyways, after ep 16 i really thought I couldn't cry as hard as I did, if not harder than that. Boy was I horribly and sadly mistaken. I might've even cried a little bit harder cuz i love the ushio arc. Life is so good right now. Lol. It ended a good Valentine's day.
OmegaPhlare
2009-02-15, 06:03
I can't believe how ridiculous, stupid, and insane the scene with Tomoya and his grandmother was. Beyond the conventional morality ignorantly displayed, it is clear to me that Tomoya made the right decision; his father did not. His father was terrible, was an abusive, neglectful, depressive alcoholic, and there really is no excuse for that since he also insisted on taking his child along that road with him and ruining Tomoya's life. This episode tells you that you are supposed to ignore endless years of abuse and hatred in favor of a single moment when the parents were nice. If someone isn't fit to raise a child, then they shouldn't, and shouldn't have to either; but Tomoya has been completely denied an emotional life, first by his father and grandmother, and then by Nagisa's cruel, ignorant decision to insist on having a child when there was a high chance she would not survive with it. Perhaps she could have remembered that Tomoya's mother died when he was very young, and thus that her dying like that could have a huge impact on him, and held back. Perhaps she could have also tried to understand more fully that his father was abusive and stop with the petty moralizing. But no, instead of young people living free lives and experiencing their emotions, we have a shrine to abusive families; and the delusion that because they bought you candy and 'worked hard' (but not at building social change and better working conditions) everything they did to you as a child was excusable.
Tomoya should have fallen in love with another of the girls after Nagisa died, and gone far, far away.
No man, this is a terribly harsh view. You're extremely hateful of people who make mistakes. Tomoya giving Ushio to Sanae and Akio was a good idea because Tomoya was a complete wreck after Nagisa passing away, but Naoyuki keeping Tomoya after his wife died was ALSO a good idea because he understood what it meant to be Tomoya's father.... Well, I mean, that was the whole point of this episode! With your own eyes, watching Tomoya's memories of Naoyuki, you're supposed to see this as true. I'm confounded as to how you are now calling this whole episode bullshit.
Because Tomoya was young, Naoyuki had to stay strong, and he DID stay strong until that year where Tomoya became old enough to choose his own path (able to make sound decisions?). In that same year he had lost many other things, he became aggressive with Tomoya and injured him, then after that regretted this mistake and begun to treat Tomoya like a stranger, ENDING the physical abuse and replacing it with an emotional misunderstanding, which I would not call Naoyuki treating Tomoya as a stranger to be emotional abuse.
The Grandmother says that after Naoyuki lost his wife "still Naoyuki had not fallen into despair". The question now is when did he fall into despair then? I have linked his despair with him becoming alcoholic. Maybe you don't see them as a link and that Naoyuki was alcoholic early after his wife died. I cannot believe that Naoyuki was an abusive alcoholic until after the time that he had lost the other things dear to him. Why in the hell would his mother want to be proud of him if it were the case that Naoyuki was always an abusive, drunk, asshole? We don't know if Naoyuki necessarily broke Tomoya's shoulder around the same time that he lost everything and became alcoholic, it could be that he was an abusive alcoholic for years before the actual incident happened.
I chose to believe that the incident was shortly after the losses where Naoyuki's pain was at a climax (time heals painful memories (my experience), but given very little time, not much has healed yet). But you choose to believe it as the drinking started years before the incident, thus giving Tomoya many years of abuse, where it would have just been better for Naoyuki to forfeit Tomoya to someone else.
Since we don't have the full details we're open to believe whatever we want out of it. If you honestly believe the worst case scenario of Naoyuki abusing Tomoya for many years, then damn it: I have nothing to say about that. I don't like unfit parents as much as the next guy, but I would never believe that the man who took his child home with a smile was an unfit parent.
---
Nagisa was cruel and ignorant to insist on having the child?! Because her death could have had a huge impact on Tomoya?!?
COWARD!!! With %100 of my emotion, at the top of my lungs I yell cowardice! How can you even say that! That Tomoya should never have children because that opened the possibility that it might hurt him any worst than it hurts another person?! It was not a high chance at all, you confuse the certainty of it happening in a drama series with the small chance of it happening in a more realistic scenario. The characters contained in this drama make decisions based on a realistic scenario to them. Now I live my life every day to its fullest as most people here would also say about themselves; we don't know when something bad will happen but that will never stop us from leaving our safe place in order to make ourselves and the people we love happy. Don't live in a bubble just because you're afraid something bad will happen... I don't need to tell you this shit, since you know it already, but there I said it anyways.
I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm making an emotional argument here instead of a logical one, but there are things that I just am not good enough to string into a logical argument yet. If Nagisa held back her desire to have the child or aborted the child very early, I would have lost all respect for her, and she would be no different from that day at the bottom of the hill. I don't care how cute she is or how loving she is had been up to that point, she would have been nothing but a coward at life.
Tempester
2009-02-15, 06:27
Nagisa was cruel and ignorant to insist on having the child?! Because her death could have had a huge impact on Tomoya?!?
COWARD!!! With %100 of my emotion, at the top of my lungs I yell cowardice! How can you even say that! That Tomoya should never have children because that opened the possibility that it might hurt him any worst than it hurts another person?! It was not a high chance at all, you confuse the certainty of it happening in a drama series with the small chance of it happening in a more realistic scenario. The characters contained in this drama make decisions based on a realistic scenario to them. Now I live my life every day to its fullest as most people here would also say about themselves; we don't know when something bad will happen but that will never stop us from leaving our safe place in order to make ourselves and the people we love happy. Don't live in a bubble just because you're afraid something bad will happen... I don't need to tell you this shit, since you know it already, but there I said it anyways.
I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm making an emotional argument here instead of a logical one, but there are things that I just am not good enough to string into a logical argument yet. If Nagisa held back her desire to have the child or aborted the child very early, I would have lost all respect for her, and she would be no different from that day at the bottom of the hill. I don't care how cute she is or how loving she is had been up to that point, she would have been nothing but a coward at life.
OmegaPhlare, no offense, but for some strange perverse reason I find your post hilarious.
On the other hand, I agree with the above statement completely. To quote the beautiful song "The Rose": "And the soul afraid of dying: that never learns to live." In other words, if you are perpetually afraid of failing, you fail at life. :heh:
A cookie for you. :D
Well realistically speaking, the show does shit to really portray the realtionship between Tomoya and his father as anything outside of Tomoya hating his ass for screwing up his shoulder and being a drunkard at this point in his life.
Throwing that all away in a 4 minute conversation atop a cliff with a scenic view is, well Clannad being Clannad. It's like getting mad at Nagisa wanting to give birth to Ushio. Sure it's COMPLETE bullshit that they couldn't get to the hospital (among a billion other factors to consider about the situation) but the woman had to be shoved into the UGLIEST conditions possible because, well, that's Clannad being Clannad. There is no viable explanation otherwise.
Oh, you want to make up with your daughter Tomoya? Well, instead of doing it at home, normally, we're going to have you do it in this gigantic, gorgeous field of flowers during the most beautiful sunset you'll ever see in your damn life.
That's Clannad being Clannad.
:eyespin:
Can't you just sit back and enjoy what's on screen, instead of picking at absolutly everything in this show? :heh:
Tempester
2009-02-15, 06:36
Can't you just sit back and enjoy what's on screen, instead of picking at absolutly everything in this show? :heh:
If you didn't check the poll votes, Master Chibi gave this episode a 10/10. Master Chibi's just poking fun at the show they like for the heck of it. It's a good quality to be able to make fun of yourself or your favorite shows. (and that's something I'm not able to do, by the way)
Can't you just sit back and enjoy what's on screen, instead of picking at absolutly everything in this show? :heh:
But that's Chibi being Chibi. :heh:
Can someone with an answer to why the widescreen translations of the episodes have stopped at episode 11 please go to the Episode 11 thread and answer the question?
Those that don't want to be spoiled and yet want a widescreen version won't come up here to post the question, so I post in their stead...I just don't have an answer.
Ah, this episode was so sad. Tomoya has a different perspective of his father now.
9/10
shadow-the-hedgehog
2009-02-15, 10:45
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/802/39174000vw3.jpg
Vegard Aune
2009-02-15, 11:12
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/802/39174000vw3.jpg
Yeah, that look is pretty common in KyoAni's shows, isn't it? Misuzu was dressed like that in Air episode 7, too.
GodDAMMIT KyoAni - stop making tears roll down my face!
Seriously, when Ushio said the toy was special because it was the first thing her daddy had bought her, I started weeping, then again in the train scene...
kk2extreme
2009-02-15, 12:49
there are 2 of the 1/10, this makes me mad, gr... :heh:, sorry a bit too sad to be mad :heh:
wonder why didnt shio-chan call sanae and akio grandpa and grandma :p
SaintessHeart
2009-02-15, 14:05
there are 2 of the 1/10, this makes me mad, gr... :heh:, sorry a bit too sad to be mad :heh:
wonder why didnt shio-chan call sanae and akio grandpa and grandma :p
Akio would just up and die. Seriously this episode is pretty sweet. And it seems that Key never fails to deliver Clannad with a less than 8/10 for me (the previous season's OVA is a different issue).
sikvod00
2009-02-15, 16:06
You know, I really gotta come back and say just how great Sanae is. Not telling her granddaughter anything about her own daughter; not letting her cry unless it was in the bathroom or in Tomoya's arms. That's why Tomoya thought she was being unexpectedly strict. Because it was. Such a thing is totally out of character for her; I'm sure it really hurt her deep down. But she did it all for Tomoya's sake. In her mind: "Only papa can talk about mama. Only in his arm's is it OK to cry." Even though she loved and cherished Ushio, Sanae refused to try and fill the void where Tomoya--the father--was supposed to be...because she believed he would return. God, I love this MILF.:upset:
She's not a MILF anymore though :p
SkoolRumble4Ya
2009-02-15, 16:24
GodDAMMIT KyoAni - stop making tears roll down my face!
Seriously, when Ushio said the toy was special because it was the first thing her daddy had bought her, I started weeping, then again in the train scene...
KyoAni is the only studio right now that got me teary eye.
Amazing, thats all I can say for now. This episode made me cry the most yet, more than 16. Kyoani, going over the top.
Sai the Dreamer
2009-02-15, 18:03
It's truly awe-inspiring how one episode can manage to make everybody in this thread so happy... I cried, that's for certain.
It's truly awe-inspiring how one episode can manage to make everybody in this thread so happy... I cried, that's for certain.
I didnt know what to feel at the end thats for sure.
typhonsentra
2009-02-15, 18:50
Hey, I just realized that in both seasons, episode 18 ends with people crying and hugging.
Spectacular_Insanity
2009-02-15, 19:33
This episode....
Made me cry a lot. Like 4 times. But damn, Ushio is so cute... probably because she's the spitting image of Nagisa.
I'm such a sucker for touchy-feely stuff.
Myssa Rei
2009-02-15, 19:52
Sure it's COMPLETE bullshit that they couldn't get to the hospital (among a billion other factors to consider about the situation) but the woman had to be shoved into the UGLIEST conditions possible because, well, that's Clannad being Clannad.
KEY is a cheating DM, not only rolling with loaded dice behind the DM screen, but also having in-house encounter tables that are set to have the percentile rolls of 01 to 98 as encounters 5 levels higher than the player characters average party level (for reference, it's labeled 'Very Difficult' for a reason, as the PCs will likely die painful deaths... several times), and adding 'invisible' penalties to their saves and attack rolls, while giving bonuses to their enemies. ;)
Fennecus
2009-02-15, 19:54
Beautiful episode.
I haven't gotten teary-eyed for a very long time, but this episode brought me close to it.
10/10.
Justin Kim
2009-02-15, 20:08
The episode spoke for itself, eloquence in speech, actions, and mentality all for viewers to experience:D
Master Chibi
2009-02-15, 20:54
Can't you just sit back and enjoy what's on screen, instead of picking at absolutly everything in this show? :heh:
With this series?
No. I didn't like Nagisa from the start, but I managed to like everyone else, so once the focus switched to her and Tomoya my nitpicks / complaints went through the roof. I disliked her to the very end, but I did feel sympathy for Tomoya and I still think it was fucked up to have her sitting alone in that classroom by herself in regards to reviving the theater club.
Sorry. Somethings sit well with me and some don't.
But that's Chibi being Chibi. :heh:
Couldn't have said it any better.
<3
KEY is a cheating DM, not only rolling with loaded dice behind the DM screen, but also having in-house encounter tables that are set to have the percentile rolls of 01 to 98 as encounters 5 levels higher than the player characters average party level (for reference, it's labeled 'Very Difficult' for a reason, as the PCs will likely die painful deaths... several times), and adding 'invisible' penalties to their saves and attack rolls, while giving bonuses to their enemies. ;)
That just makes me wonder how evil you have to be to do this to your characters. I'm not sure I'd have the balls to do that to my own creations.
D:
Justin Kim
2009-02-15, 20:58
Lol it's time for the character reformation revolution! GO KEY! Ditto on that, I wouldn't even touch the game or even think about it. Such tempting thoughts O_o.
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