View Full Version : Clannad ~After Story~ - Episode 21 Discussion / Poll
Klashikari
2009-03-05, 12:11
Welcome to the discussion thread for Clannad ~After Story~ , Episode 21.
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hydropod
2009-03-05, 12:29
All I can say is.... Ushio.... and Kyoani better not mess up the last episode....
SidVicious
2009-03-05, 12:29
I'm a little anxious.
For those who already saw the episode...what do you think about it? (no spoliers, of course)
SnackPacs
2009-03-05, 12:34
Well suffice to say, it was obvious this was a conversationally focused episode and only the big stuff was able to be noticed without an understanding of moonspeak.
Well... Even without the understanding, I still cried. It lead through just like episode 16, same music, same slow progression of the problems, etc... It was just sad to see it happening like it was. Especially when after the mid break, they used the same music again...
The Ushio death scene however, felt visually similar to the death for Misuzu, in the whole sense of the dying in their parent's arms thing. Naturally, I doubt it was the same text but still, it felt strongly familiar.
ANNNNDDDDD nothing from the preview. Expected of course.
One... more... week...
SnackPacs
2009-03-05, 12:35
I'm a little anxious.
For those who already saw the episode...what do you think about it? (no spoliers, of course)
Upsetting... Expected... Sad?
I can't say much without spoiling other than...
Expect it to be a near re-tread of episode 16, sans the comedy.
So, question
Death at middle or end of episode?
That'll tell us how much ground the last episode needs to cover.
Haven't seen it yet, but...
...Ushio dies? Are you kidding me? She was already growing on me, and now she's gone? What the hell...:frustrated:
I hope someone or something gets Tomoya's spirits up. Can't go through four eps of emo-fest.
theres one episode left, the last 2 are side stories before the events of the beginning of season 1
serenade_beta
2009-03-05, 16:17
...Right... Again? It was depressing, but it was hardly all that sad since, well, again? Did key run out of "emotional" developments and decided to reuse the same ol' tragedy?... *laugh* Well, it is key, after all.
More importantly, Tomoya, don't bring sick kids half-dead into the cold outside.
middle or end of episode?
Near end.
@serenade_beta
i won't comment much till I see the episode myself, but there was a reason for this tragedy to repeat itself in almost the exact same way. I dunno how well KyoAni conveyed this, hence why I say that I will hold further comments till then. :)
Damn I can't wait to see what happens this episode... I've already been spoiled enough but I'm still very curious to see how things play out in the anime.
I'm starting to grow really found of Ushio and I'll be very sad if anything bad happens to her :(
MeoTwister5
2009-03-05, 19:20
Time to put on my firefighter gear.
@VN gamers
So... did the episode do "it" better than the game? Frankly I didn't like how the game did it at all. A simple yes or no answer will do, so no spoilers come out.:)
@None-VN watchers
Whatever happens at this point, there's really only 1 episode left so unless KyotoAni screws it up, the final episode should not disappoint. So those of you who think of dropping this because of whatever happens on this episode, I really suggest you let it finish.:)
@VN gamers
So... did the episode do "it" better than the game? Frankly I didn't like how the game did it at all. A simple yes or no answer will do, so no spoilers come out.:)
Yes. That said...well, that just about dashes my hopes for a lengthy epilogue. Can't say I'm shocked, I pretty much counted it out the second I learned that 22 was to be the final regular episode, but eh, can't help but be disappointed slightly by it. They simply have too much ground to cover in 22 to extend the ending, despite my best wishes. I can wish that episode 24 will do that anyway, but I'm quite certain that's going to wind up as a Kyou Arc, a la episode 24 of the first season.
As for THIS episode, I can't say I didn't see it coming. Partly because I'm a veteran of the visual novel and knew it was coming. Doesn't make it less sad, but at least KyoAni improved upon what was a rather lackluster scene in the original work. The transition into the Illusionary World should have made it very clear what the tie is between the two worlds, but...well, we'll see how many people get it before they spell it out in the next episode.
All in all, a good episode and a nice segue into the finale. A little rushed, but, well, so was the original version. Time for the endgame.
panzerfan
2009-03-05, 20:21
This episode steamrolled through me honestly. I don't think I have the time to reflect, and barely to digest before blasted Torch comes up.
My feelings from this episode actually is trying to reorient myself. Even if I know of the plot, I felt like a deer caught in front of the headlights. Maybe it's for the best that I don't sit on it and having to sulk over the Furukawa and Tomoya's lots, at least not until I finished the episode.
This was too sad. I wonder how the last episode will be?
At any rate, I loved this episode, as sad as it was. =|
I wasn't that sad because I knew what was coming. anyways I give 10/10 because it was well animated. I have a lot of expectation from next final episode.
Leo_Otaku
2009-03-05, 21:48
Hard to say anything without mentioning spoilers I will have to wait for the next one to make an actual comment if Kyo-ani did do it for us V/N players? I don't know >.> I'm thinking partly yes they left us hanging.
I think the main reason that made this episode different from episode 16 and 18 is the different of emotions it evokes. In episode 16 it was mainly a crushed hope, a truncated future. In ep 18 it was redemption, catharsis. However in this one the main theme, was just fighting against an unbeatable destiny. One perfectly knew what was coming, and as such one doesn't feel that emotionally involved to the events in this episode... only on a first level. It is when one realizes what that heavy feeling on your chest is, that isn't exactly tears, but just and plainly hopelessness that one feels the full emotional turmoil of the episode. All at once.
MeoTwister5
2009-03-05, 23:08
Fine. I'll watch the raws. If KyotoAni sticks to tradition then I'm sure I'm going to consider this episode my least favorite of the series, due almost entirely on the nature of the source material. At the very least, I hope KyotoAni does it better, because Key certainly didn't pull it off well. IMHO at least.
Mecha_Trueno
2009-03-05, 23:10
This is depressing man... she's only FIVE:(
Kyoani, no wait, KEY is cruel man...
Fine. I'll watch the raws. If KyotoAni sticks to tradition then I'm sure I'm going to consider this episode my least favorite of the series, due almost entirely on the nature of the source material. At the very least, I hope KyotoAni does it better, because Key certainly didn't pull it off well. IMHO at least.
Oh c'mon, just stop doing preemptive complaining, watch it and value it for what it is.
Tempester
2009-03-06, 00:19
Five words: TORCH ending, Zombie Ushio dancing.
-_____________________-
It wasn't as sad as I thought it might've been, but I was still hoping it wouldn’t happen. And yeah it did give off kind of an Air vibe.
Hopefully we can get something happy next and probably last episode. I look forward to finally finding out what the whole alternate world's role and meaning is. (I've never felt like thinking this one through and have just been patiently waiting for the answer)
W-General
2009-03-06, 01:01
Wow.
Maeda Jun is an asshole. Does he relish in tormenting his creations like a merciless god raining down pain and suffering on his people?
It was not bad when Nagisa died - there was some good that came out of it. Now this...I am NOT AMUSED.
It worked once in Kanon. Twice in Air. Thrice? Not anymore.
Next episode better be happy or I am going to boycott anything written by him in the future.
I'm pretty sure he's done writing any way since he's about to retire from key atleast. The episode was great, would have loved a little more dialogue from the illusory world chapter but the way it was pieced together, I was pretty much broken the entire episode. And damn when Ushio told Tomoya that she loved him... I lost it... thinking about right now brings tears to my eyes. This week is gonna be a real long one.
It was not bad when Nagisa died - there was some good that came out of it. Now this...I am NOT AMUSED.
It worked once in Kanon. Twice in Air. Thrice? Not anymore.
It seems like you have never seen a key work before lol. It's like watching seven seasons of 24, and when the president betrays jack to the random terrorist orginization, pretending like you didn't see it coming. The train had already warned you with the horn, and it even slammed on the breaks to give you a chance to get off the track.
MeoTwister5
2009-03-06, 01:12
Oh c'mon, just stop doing preemptive complaining, watch it and value it for what it is.
Yeah well a few people tell me it's better than the game, so once I finish downloading I'll try to watch it with as little bias as I am able to.
This week is gonna be a real long one.
Hmm, maybe I should hold off on watching this episode until the next one is out... I saw Kanon 2006 well after release so seeing the last two eps in quick succession minimised the heartache.
Then again, I don't think I can wait that long - and sharing the sadness together is better than going alone - a lesson well demonstrated in After Story.
Bring on the Subs!
MeoTwister5
2009-03-06, 01:45
Well... just watched the raw and.... damn you Proto!:(
So... uh... honestly while it still isn't the ideal way I would have wanted it done, it's still light years away from what Key did with it. The pacing was still too fast at times, the situation was still absurd as it is and what Tomoya decided to do with Ushio's request was still a damn foolish and idiotic thing for a father to do but.... as I said in the spoiler and game threads a long time ago... he probably already knew what was going to happen.
Thing is, I didn't love it in the game, and I still didn't love it here. Granted I don't hate it, at least the episode didn't leave me irritated and flabergasted as the game did, so kudos to KyotoAni on that point. One of the lower ranking episodes of the series in my opinion. Not the worst, but just under the 50% ranking mark.
However.... the end of the episode is absolutety farktastically unceremoniously BRILLIANT....
I won't say how or why, but every VN gamer knows EXACTLY what this scene is. It's practically lifted. THIS IS A CLIFFHANGER. There it is, the moment every Clannad gamer has waited for....
Damn you KyotoAni. 7 days is too long.:upset:
Didn't anyone saw the last prev. on clannad after stories on the last ep of clannad season 1
I assume usio is gonna die (Dam) but I dont know the cause so maybe I thought It was an acident
Try watching the extra ep of clannad season 1 after the ending
Haruyasha
2009-03-06, 05:28
Where have we seen this before?
http://i40.tinypic.com/rid73p.jpg
IRJustman
2009-03-06, 06:03
I hate to break the rhythm of conversation for a moment, but I figured I would touch on a serious concern very briefly, given the advanced state of the story and what I've observed earlier in the thread.
If you're going to speculate aloud, regardless of whether you've played the VN, DO NOT DO IT IN HERE! There are threads specifically for these purposes. They're there, so USE them.
Again, watch what you say. Others are. So are we--and reporting. As are the mods--and meting out appropriate discipline.
Thank you for helping us help you help us all.
--Ian.
Justin Kim
2009-03-06, 06:07
Wow.
Maeda Jun is an asshole. Does he relish in tormenting his creations like a merciless god raining down pain and suffering on his people?
It was not bad when Nagisa died - there was some good that came out of it. Now this...I am NOT AMUSED.
It worked once in Kanon. Twice in Air. Thrice? Not anymore.
Next episode better be happy or I am going to boycott anything written by him in the future.
Then please do so, I mean it's not like were innate to just stay away from an internet screen that is playing a video with subs. Isn't it obvious that others in this thread aren't relishing with delight at the current episode. Complaints are ok, but it's just Maeda Jun doing his work. This is only episode 21, we still have 3 more to go - Keep that in mind, that there is room for immense amounts of speculation and possibilities.
MeoTwister5
2009-03-06, 06:48
Umm 22 is the final episode as stated (and possible indicated by the title), 23 and 24 are more or less alternate universe oenes or epilogues.
SaintessHeart
2009-03-06, 07:19
I can't believe that I, as a guy, CRIED watching it. But hell, it is a pretty good episode.
But then again, both Nagisa and Ushio died in the snow, and Tomoya collapsed out of physical and emotional exhaustion. What a pretty artistic way to write a tragedy.
Next episode better be happy or I am going to boycott anything written by him in the future.
I assure you that you won't be seeing any of his works again,since he stepped down after Little Busters. As far as I know, the storyline he writes are pretty great but emotionally draining, it takes a strong mind to appreciate the artistry and a strong heart to withstand the heart-wrenching tragedy. I feel that Clannad is his best work of all, followed by Planetarian (the game), Kanon and Air. The storyboard is so ridiculously well-executed that it can invoke emotions in just a few frames.
Love it while you can. Clannad makes Titanic look like an over-commercialised and overrated tragedy.
The creator for Planetarian was Yūichi Suzumoto though, but it's nice to see you enjoyed it...
but let's not get overblown over Maeda Jun or CLANNAD, ok? :)
^this, oh titanic, first real nipple I ever saw on tv, kate winslet my goddess. But yea i dunno when I rewatch titanic, its just not that emotional, compared to some of the stuff I've watched before... say this show. Anyway for me the best scene was when Ushio told her daddy she loved him. gah
SaintessHeart
2009-03-06, 07:58
The creator for Planetarian was Yūichi Suzumoto though, but it's nice to see you enjoyed it...
but let's not get overblown over Maeda Jun or CLANNAD, ok? :)
Really? I didn't know that, but Planetarian's storyline is quite well-crafted, especially what the protagonist did in the end. Clannad probably has the best storyline of all, it reflects quite alot on our lives (for those who went through high school) that we have never noticed, like those things we have taken for granted and not cherished until it is all gone.
Yes I find it perfectly childish to just get blown up over an anime. It is okay to feel emotionally cheated, but it goes to show how well the storyline is written that you never saw it coming that you would feel that way.
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Thank God. Kyoani's been a little bit disappointing for me this season for some of their decisions, like playing torch after Nagisa's death and failing to even give a hint of Country train at the end of the first Ushio chapter where they decided to go on a trip. This time they did something really good in allowing for the death scene to actually seem like actual plot instead of just a random quick-shot death.
I'm going to give it an 8/10, because they did not include something at the end that should have been there, but I'm not spoiling. >.>
MeoTwister5
2009-03-06, 09:12
Thank God. Kyoani's been a little bit disappointing for me this season for some of their decisions, like playing torch after Nagisa's death and failing to even give a hint of Country train at the end of the first Ushio chapter where they decided to go on a trip. This time they did something really good in allowing for the death scene to actually seem like actual plot instead of just a random quick-shot death.
I'm going to give it an 8/10, because they did not include something at the end that should have been there, but I'm not spoiling. >.>
They can't, because if they did, wouldn't be a cliffhanger now would it?:p
Assuming of course we are talking about the same thing...
Edit - AQS subs are out in Mininova if anyone cares.
Edit - AQS subs are out in Mininova if anyone cares.
Just watched them and damn am I sad now... Still it's as someone already said in this thread: this wasn't has crushing as the previous events simple because I (and I'm guessing most people) have already given up hope at this point... Key made it very clear by this point that they are in this to crush every hopes and dreams we might possibly have about that pairing so we just have the feeling of hopelessness as we are given the plot along the way...
And that cliffhanger with the grayed out images just gets me thinking that the ending will be entirely dependent on Tomoya's willpower and I don't see how he could have much left in him, I know I wouldn't have.
Rice_slayer
2009-03-06, 09:29
Jesus, I am only part way through fuuko's arc in the game, won't catch up now :P. Anyways this episode was depressing start to finish and
What's with the Nagisa/Tomoya meeting at the bottom of the hill again, Something tells me we are going to have a Kanon-ish style finish
9/10. Not bad, but the end left me too confused for a 10 :P.
MeoTwister5
2009-03-06, 09:59
Well the ending of the episode being considered as a cliffhanger probably depends more on your familiarity with the plot and characters than anything else, which is a blessing to gamers and maybe a more an "Oh nose!" to none gamers. Gamers already know what can happen next, none gamers will be left wondering just how imoprtant it is.
But I won't say anymore. Beyond here is speculative anyway.:p
Yukinokesshou
2009-03-06, 10:57
Speaking of the cliffhanger, only one of two possibilities can lead to a next episode. I hope this isn't a spoiler... I don't think anyone who hasn't played the game could make sense of this =p
Whoever said this episode evokes different emotions from eps 16 and 18 is spot-on (sorry I forgot your name... you posted on page 1). I didn't feel any strong emotions here, just calm.
Key's stories make absolutely no sense at all, but they somehow fit together in a completely random way and Kyoani does a good job adapting them. Incidentally, do you think there is a Shinto or Buddhist basis behind Key's plots or is it just the imagination of one sadistic man? At the very least, Air seemed to have religious overtones (reincarnation, "kami", etc.)... maybe it's the same for Clannad?
8/10 (yes, that's a very high rating from me; I've only given 10/10 once, for episode 18)
TakezoSama
2009-03-06, 11:12
I can't really criticize Tomoya taking Ushio on a trip. When Ushio insisted on going on a trip with her father, maybe he understood that her time was almost up; Her stubborness might have remembered him of her mother ;] (I wanna have a child!)
Also, when My grandma was dying at the hospital, she did wish to get back to her house; We, however, kept her at the hospital because "it was common sense that hospitals are better for sick people" - and so she was kept there... Dying two days later, alone, around midnight at the hospital. She could've used her parents around her and her own bed to pass away.
I still don't get what'll come at the final ep, but I'd like for some miracle to occur like Kanon.... But since there wasn't any miracle-related talk between the characters, that prolly won't occur :upset:
If a revolver's on a stage it'll prolly be shot. Even after saying that, cant be sure what'll happen :D
He should have taken her months earlier, when it was still summer.
Hint: They did talk about something related to miracles, quite a while ago.
jenthehen
2009-03-06, 11:24
Just in case people haven't seen the episode yet:
Am I the only one who doesn't think she is going to die? I am holding on strong here! He asked Nagisa to save her, and I hope there is a Kanon-ish ending where she DOES!!! Oh, I haven't played the game, so I'm just shooting in the dark here. I just ... can't imagine them ending the show with Ushio dead - that's just ... pointlessly depressing. The theme of the show is family support and love creating miracles, right? So let's go with that!
Borderline sadistic.
Seeing this animated hurts. I can't count how many times I look the other way.
I can't stand watching a child like that.
The ending part with Nagisa, felt a lot like fresh water in the middle of the desert, Rejuvenation. Now I'm sure I can live through this week.
Replaying those sadistic scenes in my head for the next 7days.
I don't think this invoked as much raw emotion as previous episodes, but it did have me feeling one very strong emotion throughout nigh the entire episode...
... and that is the sense of utter hopelessness. That was probably the goal of the original VN, I would guess, and if it was, it worked very well here. I had a feeling since the last scene of episode 20 that something bad would happen to Ushio, and the worse possible thing did happen. That last "I love you" by Ushio broke the dam of those feelings that was building in me as I watched the events unfold in a horribly anxious and foreboding mood. :(
I have to say kudos to KyoAni for making me feel like total crap for 20 straight minutes. (this is a compliment in the highest regard of course)
Poor Ushio... and poor Tomoya also. The guy just never is allowed a chance to be happy...
panzerfan
2009-03-06, 11:36
On a second revisit, I am rather glad that Maeda Jun at least had the decency to leave out everyone else that's been by the side of Tomoya from the lights out of Ushio.
Would anyone want to see the face of Kyou after being told that Ushio is to stay at home indefinitely? Should one want to see Youhei desparately skipping work and packing part of his meager salaries over his his troubled friend? Shall one peer at Tomoyo reading about how that a new mall is to be built? Might one imagine the look from Fuko when told that Tomoya has stopped working? One dread seeing Kotomi being given the crushing blow that Ushio has perished... and worst of all, dare one stare at the face of Akio and Sanae as the dust settles?
I feel that Ushio is aware that her time's up as well. It ruins my appetite in how that both the father and child acknowledged the inevitable while maintaining full mental faculty. Arguably, 5 years old is still too early to learn of mortality of others, yet here Ushio is knowing of her own mortality.
Tomoya hates the town, perhaps rightly so out of this...
MeoTwister5
2009-03-06, 12:00
On a second revisit, I am rather glad that Maeda Jun at least had the decency to leave out everyone else that's been by the side of Tomoya from the lights out of Ushio.
Would anyone want to see the face of Kyou after being told that Ushio is to stay at home indefinitely? Should one want to see Youhei desparately skipping work and packing part of his meager salaries over his his troubled friend? Shall one peer at Tomoyo reading about how that a new mall is to be built? Might one imagine the look from Fuko when told that Tomoya has stopped working? One dread seeing Kotomi being given the crushing blow that Ushio has perished... and worst of all, dare one stare at the face of Akio and Sanae as the dust settles?
I feel that Ushio is aware that her time's up as well. It ruins my appetite in how that both the father and child acknowledged the inevitable while maintaining full mental faculty. Arguably, 5 years old is still too early to learn of mortality of others, yet here Ushio is knowing of her own mortality.
Tomoya hates the town, perhaps rightly so out of this...
Presenting everyone else almost suffering themselves to help him goes way beyond melodrama, thank god the VN didn't do it, because it'll just leave an extremely forced plot progression to evoke emotion and what not.
And since the next episode's title is known, are we allowed to talk about the song now?:D
Kinny Riddle
2009-03-06, 12:11
Good job in building up to the climax. Compared to episode 16, where they jumped straight to Torch after that sad scene with Tomoya declaring he should never have met Nagisa and face such sadness, I think the last couple of scenes leading up to Torch was slightly better.
This is because this time the viewer has time to adapt from the sadness of Ushio departing and Tomoya collapsing, and then suddenly perplexed with a similar scene in the Illusionary World, and finally Tomoya once again deciding whether he should talk to Nagisa back in that scene.
Still, it would've been better to just have blacked out credits with sad music, or even no music.
The building of the hospital affected Nagisa, and now there's a construction of a shopping centre, which affects Ushio.
Akio shows why he's the man again by reminding Tomoya that he's Ushio's father, and so should reassure Ushio her father's fine.
Yoshino's a cool boss if there ever was one, saying he's just "borrowing" Tomoya's tools, expecting him to return even after he decides to resign to take care of Ushio.
I wouldn't call Tomoya's decision to take Ushio out in such a blizzard as cruel, as he and even Ushio herself reckoned her time is up, and so Tomoya felt he should at least grant her her final wish of going on a trip.
And finally, notice Ushio's "final" snow trek in the Real World parallels the Girl's "final" snow trek in the Illusionary World. That alone is a huge hint, if you still don't get it, then just be patient and wait for another seven days. :cool:
Ascaloth
2009-03-06, 12:17
Episode 21 article is up:
[RIUVA] CLANNAD ~After Story~, Episode 21 (http://www.riuva.com/?p=1382)
By far, one of the hardest RIUVA articles I have ever had to write. There's no grief anymore, just hopelessness. 9/10, for the sole remaining mystery in the "full circle" of the last minutes of this episode.
I felt bad going into this morning, after a heart-wrenching sport result last night...
...but this just makes me feel even worse.
Sigh.
Is KyoAni alleric to happy or something? Though that kind of death affects me, because its the same as how Id like to live fighting and striving for my goals even if i do meet my end on the way. It takes alot more strength to do that than the majority of people realize.
And for those questioning the theme of the show, while it is true its about family bonds and whatnot, it is also about how sadness and happiness comes in waves, and how those bonds are used during those times.
(Points to speech by Nagisa at the bottom of the hill as a reference)
omgTomoya Killed his daughter!
I know she was sick but he took her to a trip and ended her life sooner then it should have. I mean just look at that poor thing struggling to walk and with a really cold weather. I mean has a parent sometimes you just have to say a big NO to your kids! You are sick! so stay on bed!, but Nooooo he had to take her to the trip...:bash:
SaintessHeart
2009-03-06, 14:31
Is KyoAni alleric to happy or something? Though that kind of death affects me, because its the same as how Id like to live fighting and striving for my goals even if i do meet my end on the way. It takes alot more strength to do that than the majority of people realize.
And for those questioning the theme of the show, while it is true its about family bonds and whatnot, it is also about how sadness and happiness comes in waves, and how those bonds are used during those times.
(Points to speech by Nagisa at the bottom of the hill as a reference)
No. Refer to episode 4 from S1, somewhere around the middle where Nagisa is trying to ask Ryou to join the Theater Club.
No. Refer to episode 4 from S1, somewhere around the middle where Nagisa is trying to ask Ryou to join the Theater Club.
Just checked, and I didnt see anything contrary to what I said, so youll have to point it out for me.
I could stand this episode watching how my sweet little Ushio-chan is dying :(
KEY!!
I won't forgive you this!! :frustrated::frustrated:
Someone mentioned earlier about how Ushio is just repeating the tragedy that befell Nagisa (in an almost karmic/destined sense) and that got me thinking about that one forest. Couldn't Tomoya take Ushio to that forest that Akio took Nagisa to when she was about to die? Or has building that hospital destroyed its magical powers? If their demise is paralleled then the methods to save them should be as well. Or maybe that's just wishful thinking.
I also had something else to say but I unfortunately forgot it. Maybe it'll come back to me in a little while. I should've written it down when I thought about it last night.
Wow - I can't say that this was unexpected. I was sad but there were no tears. I still hold on to hope. Hope for a happy ending for Tomoya.
Everything seemed to be converging towards the final scene....
There has to be a larger meaning here, with Tomoya and Ushio taking a trip, and in almost exactly the same way the girl and the robot taking a trip. Both seemed destined to fail and of course, both did, with both Ushio and the girl collapsing, and Tomoya and the robot standing by helpless. Then we returned to the very start of the story. What path will Tomoya take?
I can't be certain what the meaning of it all is. I am sure the gamers out there will know, though whether KyoAni take some creative license for themselves alter the final meaning means that we all cannot be completely sure.
I take solace in the title of next weeks episode "The Palm of a Small Hand" This suggests reaching out, of offering your hand, palm up to someone. And with the way the final scene closes, with Tomoya and Nagisa standing next to each other on the hill...
It will be a long wait until next week.
they really should accept anpan as a curse. tomoya really cant get a break when it omes to nagisa. its so cruel and i hope that something happens to save ushio. how many eps are there left until the season is finished?
RandomFlameStrike
2009-03-06, 18:14
omgTomoya Killed his daughter!
I know she was sick but he took her to a trip and ended her life sooner then it should have. I mean just look at that poor thing struggling to walk and with a really cold weather. I mean has a parent sometimes you just have to say a big NO to your kids! You are sick! so stay on bed!, but Nooooo he had to take her to the trip...:bash:
I hope that's sarcasm lol, but if case you can't tell, the trip didn't really make Ushio collapse any faster.
Yeah this was a crushing episode. I hope KyoAni won't screw things up with the last ep. I have a few guess on what they might do but this isn't the place to talk about that.
But seriously, random supernatrual unexplainable fevers with no ties to real medical issues are FTL (The doctor couldn't diagonose it). If I didn't know better I'd be going WTF WTF WTF?!
Janey777
2009-03-06, 18:51
Little Nagisa was saved after being brought to a holy field.
When a hospital was being built there, as she was about to give a birth. It was a sign! But no, nobody expected a sick girl with risky pregnancy to have an early delivery.
Hospital is built! And Ushio keeps coming there. After she gets ill and can't recover for another mounth and nothing can be done - still no hospitalisation.
Yeah
Who needs hospitals anyway.
Seems like Kyou may play a big role in getting Tomoya over this, or atleast Id expect her to, Tomoya has always needed outside help in order to cope with his major problems, and since she still cares and promised help last episode, id expect to see her next week.
Klashikari
2009-03-06, 19:08
Yeah
Who needs hospitals anyway.For the Xth time:
-no you cannot expect an early delivery. Actually early delivery can happen on a whim, regardless how healthy the mother is.
-tomoya explained why he didn't send ushio to the hospital.
It seems some people really give too much credits to hospitals nowadays: think about room, funds and time issues.
Hospitalization is *never* better than staying home if treatment isn't given. Such environment isn't anything positive to a patient, let alone a child.
MeoTwister5
2009-03-06, 19:10
Little Nagisa was saved after being brought to a holy field.
When a hospital was being built there, as she was about to give a birth. It was a sign! But no, nobody expected a sick girl with risky pregnancy to have an early delivery.
Hospital is built! And Ushio keeps coming there. After she gets ill and can't recover for another mounth and nothing can be done - still no hospitalisation.
Yeah
Who needs hospitals anyway.
Okay you DO NOT hospitalize anyone just because a doctor can't diagnose a patient's current condition, even with or without a valid differential. Hospitalization falls under patients who's health either rapidly deteriorates or suddenly enters a life threatening situation. For whatever reason, Ushio's condition does not suggest anything immediately life threatening, niether does it point to any observable decline in patient condition. People HAVE died from almost seemingly simple symptoms that doesn't even suggest a need for hospitalization. Of course Ushio's case is a bit more out of this world but that's beyond the point.
As for Nagisa's pregnancy and subsequent labor occurring during a snowstorm and the dangers of moving a woman having contractions, I don't think I even need to discuss how dangerous it already is.
Oh, I remembered the other thing that I was thinking about last night. That damn doctor that checked on Ushio. What was up with his attitude? "Oh no, it's the same as Nagisa. There's nothing we can do and there's no hope at all. Well, I'll just let myself out. See ya." (Not exact quote) I thought it was kind of cold. Especially coming from what seems to be a family doctor.
And another thing, why has there been no research into Nagisa's illness? What did doctors do after they found out she had an unknown illness? Just decide to forget about? I find it a little ridiculous that no amount of research (seemingly) was put into this illness, and that nothing was accomplished in the 15+ year span between Nagisa's and Ushio's 'diagnosis'.
Klashikari
2009-03-06, 19:15
Oh, I remembered the other thing that I was thinking about last night. That damn doctor that checked on Ushio. What was up with his attitude? "Oh no, it's the same as Nagisa. There's nothing we can do and there's no hope at all. Well, I'll just let myself out. See ya." (Not exact quote) I thought it was kind of cold. Especially coming from what seems to be a family doctor.
And another thing, why has there been no research into Nagisa's illness? What did doctors do after they found out she had an unknown illness? Just decide to forget about? I find it a little ridiculous that no amount of research (seemingly) was put into this illness, and that nothing was accomplished in the 15+ year span between Nagisa's and Ushio's 'diagnosis'.
You can't make research on an unidentified illness like this, especially if only 1-2 individuals are afflicted by this (research fees are astronomic).
It is simply unrealistic, and it takes also an atrocious amount of time to even "identify" a pathogen. So especting a cure for a completely mythical illness is utterly impossible (THAT would be a real deus ex machina in the given situation of this series).
The series implied clearly that Nagisa's existence was solely relying on the town "health". Nagisa was supposed to be dead years before the actual plot, so her existence was a mere "borrowed time", which Ushio logically got as result.
The "unidentified" illness is not a plothole here: it is unidentified as it is something out of the science league, that's all.
SageGaiGar
2009-03-06, 19:21
Ask yourself, would you rather spend all your time in a institutional setting (hospital) or rest at home? They had no clue what was wrong with her, so no real way to treat it. Staying at home was the best solution at the moment. And could he have possibly afforded the cost of keeping her in the hospital? It would mean working all the time and spending less time with her.
The trip was a metaphor, Better to have gone on the trip when she asked. Any attempt to cram 'logic' into here is kind of doomed to failure.
Janey777
2009-03-06, 19:33
And again, Illusionary world scenes are just so damn brilliant. The idea itself is fantastic. The design of an every scene and every frame looks like a masterpiece to me, as if each sequence is very important. I really like how this idea of "big, white and empty world" was carried out - I was thinking about something similar before Clannad, and was surprised. Music works in a right way, too. It's stunningly beautiful. I even get dizzy while watching these scenes ~
This illusionnary world always seemed to be white in color... cold and emotionless. Probably represents death. And now that it's cold and covered in snow, it's essense is... blooming.
You can't make research on an unidentified illness like this, especially if only 1-2 individuals are afflicted by this (research fees are astronomic).
It is simply unrealistic, and it takes also an atrocious amount of time to even "identify" a pathogen. So especting a cure for a completely mythical illness is utterly impossible (THAT would be a real deus ex machina in the given situation of this series).
The series implied clearly that Nagisa's existence was solely relying on the town "health". Nagisa was supposed to be dead years before the actual plot, so her existence was a mere "borrowed time", which Ushio logically got as result.
The "unidentified" illness is not a plothole here: it is unidentified as it is something out of the science league, that's all.
I hve one issue with that, but its more of a personal belief.
That is that the towns health and Nagisa's health were a coincidence. Akio and Tomoya were trying to rationalize why their misfortune was occuring. Two things clearly happened, the town changed, and Nagisas health changed. That was all, or I could link every chronically ill persons health to be related to something vague like a town changing.
But that is a preferred belief juost because I dislike supernatural plot devices that seem out of place in these shows (Didnt like the Fuko orr Misae Arc for those reasons, even though it had emotional impact), nothing more really.
Ask yourself, would you rather spend all your time in a institutional setting (hospital) or rest at home? They had no clue what was wrong with her, so no real way to treat it. Staying at home was the best solution at the moment. And could he have possibly afforded the cost of keeping her in the hospital? It would mean working all the time and spending less time with her.
I wasn't talking about Ushio or Nagisa staying at a hospital. They just need a blood sample and then some checks here and there.
You can't make research on an unidentified illness like this, especially if only 1-2 individuals are afflicted by this (research fees are astronomic).
It is simply unrealistic, and it takes also an atrocious amount of time to even "identify" a pathogen. So especting a cure for a completely mythical illness is utterly impossible (THAT would be a real deus ex machina in the given situation of this series).
The "unidentified" illness is not a plothole here: it is unidentified as it is something out of the science league, that's all.
No the illness is not a plot hole, I didn’t say that, it's a plot device, and an overly used and weak one at that. But I'm not complaining about that as it didn't really detract from the story for me (KyoAni and Key are good like that). And I'm not expecting a cure to pop out of nowhere. That would be weak. But viewing the illness realistically, (which doesn't work because it is a magical illness, I know) it's not too much to expect a little effort on the medical side. Who's to say that the illness has only 2 people suffering from it? (which it probably did) That's kind of the reason to start researching and searching for the cure to rare diseases/illnesses. It would've just made it feel less like some magical/fake illness. But again, this isn't a big complaint, just a minor thing I noticed. It didn't detract from the story hardly at all.
drpassafiume
2009-03-06, 19:43
Just in case people haven't seen the episode yet:
Am I the only one who doesn't think she is going to die? I am holding on strong here! He asked Nagisa to save her, and I hope there is a Kanon-ish ending where she DOES!!! Oh, I haven't played the game, so I'm just shooting in the dark here. I just ... can't imagine them ending the show with Ushio dead - that's just ... pointlessly depressing. The theme of the show is family support and love creating miracles, right? So let's go with that!
Abso-frikkin-lutely.:bow:
They did NOT just up and kill Ushio!:bash::sad: I WILL NOT LET them.:frustrated: Ushio will have some Miraculus recovery, Tomoya will get a glimpse of Nagisa in the afterlife, and everything will turn out ok...:uhoh: it will...:mad:
It WILL... :frustrated:
I am so pissed that they're messing with me again.
Not that i know anything, I haven't played the game or anything, but if we all clear our minds, and FOCUS:bash: on the way it SHOULD turn out, then we can BEND reality to our wishes. Everyone together now, put all of your mental enery into this, if anyone is actually psychic and can bend spoons and stuff then lend a hand to the ones who can only bend paperclips. Don't worry about the time-space continuumumum, it's just a big word scientists use for "I don't know," :confused:and if the fabric of reality does tear... well...:innocent: we won't be around to see it anyway, so don't opworry about it!:D
Just focus on the way it should be, the way it WILL be, make the universe bow to my... I mean, OUR, wishes... I'm counting on all of you!
If not I could always fly to japan and use less seemly means... :naughty:
Klashikari
2009-03-06, 19:48
But viewing the illness realistically, (which doesn't work because it is a magical illness, I know) it's not too much to expect a little effort on the medical side. Who's to say that the illness has only 2 people suffering from it? (which it probably did) That's kind of the reason to start researching and searching for the cure to rare diseases/illnesses. It would've just made it feel less like some magical/fake illness. But again, this isn't a big complaint, just a minor thing I noticed. It didn't detract from the story hardly at all.
We can only assume that "they do their job". Well, it is unlikely that we can clarify if they are just loitering around or working like nuts over this (not enough data syndrom, i guess).
That said, given the fact how Nagisa's illness is bluntly idiopathic, that is really starting from scratch. Ideally, you cannot expect real research unless it is really lifethreatening on the long run.
Nagisa's health was known very poor, but it didn't prevent her to live normally, unless extreme situation came out. Therefore, you can't exactly expect research on the move for a dodgy and vicious illness that has no real etiology or symptoms aside of a strong and chronic fever, compared to usual and much "deadlier" ones (reality speaking or not).
Once Ushio was alive, none expected her to be afflicted by the same pathology, therefore, there was no room for time for research either. And once it hit her, it is too late (again, realistically speaking).
In fact, it is always difficult to admit "we can't do anything", and it is often as flat as this.
Tempester
2009-03-06, 19:56
Not that i know anything, I haven't played the game or anything, but if we all clear our minds, and FOCUS:bash: on the way it SHOULD turn out, then we can BEND reality to our wishes. Everyone together now, put all of your mental enery into this, if anyone is actually psychic and can bend spoons and stuff then lend a hand to the ones who can only bend paperclips. Don't worry about the time-space continuumumum, it's just a big word scientists use for "I don't know," :confused:and if the fabric of reality does tear... well...:innocent: we won't be around to see it anyway, so don't opworry about it!:D
Just focus on the way it should be, the way it WILL be, make the universe bow to my... I mean, OUR, wishes... I'm counting on all of you!
If not I could always fly to japan and use less seemly means... :naughty:
You obviously have a very strong will that might even clash with Jun Maeda's evil sadistic will and create an epic psychological battle.
That is, of course, if the two of you share a common language to battle with in. :heh:
It is a genetic thing, thats why nagisa passed it on to Ushio,
But the thing is, Ive never heard of a cure for genetic problems that cause chronic illness. I am surprised that they never drew blood on Ushio to check olut that stuff, but eh. I dont know what healthcare in Japan is like.
But speaking from what experience I have, genetic conditions feel really hopeless, and you get to the point where your almost like "to hell with the doctors, they cant do anything anyway".
As many other people have said, you get better rest at home than at a hospital anyway, and from the looks of it, thats the only thing that could be given.
And when youve been in Ushio's situation awhile, you realize wen the end is coming, and she chose to go out doing everything in her power to continue her life normally, no matter how short the time frame.
except recently with stem cells, and to a point gene therapy, genetic disorders have become less and less life threatening. Though in all reality, we probably are slowly killing the gene pool, by having people survive artificially then through their own physical prowess. There is no selective pressures any more. Back to genetic disorders, also on top of that there is now lots of prenatal screening to help with finding out if the fetus is genetically healthy.
Ushio and Nagisa's healthy is linked in magic/fantasy and not some realistic disease say leukemia. The whole notion of trying to look at their illness in the terms of science is just too hard, because theres just no precedent of their disease and the fact that most likely the disease is caused by some mystical effect and not one based on the reality we believe in.
RandomFlameStrike
2009-03-06, 20:19
Abso-frikkin-lutely.:bow:
They did NOT just up and kill Ushio!:bash::sad: I WILL NOT LET them.:frustrated: Ushio will have some Miraculus recovery, Tomoya will get a glimpse of Nagisa in the afterlife, and everything will turn out ok...:uhoh: it will...:mad:
It WILL... :frustrated:
I am so pissed that they're messing with me again.
Not that i know anything, I haven't played the game or anything, but if we all clear our minds, and FOCUS:bash: on the way it SHOULD turn out, then we can BEND reality to our wishes. Everyone together now, put all of your mental enery into this, if anyone is actually psychic and can bend spoons and stuff then lend a hand to the ones who can only bend paperclips. Don't worry about the time-space continuumumum, it's just a big word scientists use for "I don't know," :confused:and if the fabric of reality does tear... well...:innocent: we won't be around to see it anyway, so don't opworry about it!:D
Just focus on the way it should be, the way it WILL be, make the universe bow to my... I mean, OUR, wishes... I'm counting on all of you!
If not I could always fly to japan and use less seemly means... :naughty:
YES, WE CAN!!! Come on everyone, focus your mental powers and force a happy ending to come about!! Damit Tomoya use some magic or something and heal Ushio!! T.T Since the stupid plot device illness is clearly magical in nature, it must be countered with more magic/miracles! Hey if it happend in Kanon, it can happen again!!
Hm it's a little annoying that Key keeps on using wierd illnessess that are conviently out side of the relm of science (Magic 1000 year old curse, unknown illness without a name, chronic heavy fevers with no reason for them). However, the excecution is pretty damn good and it keeps me crying ><.
Also to anyone thinking a hospital would have helped Ushio: No you are just deluding yourself or looking for a reason to go out of your way and bash the story x.x. It's like saying Misuzu would have been saved if she was in a hospital instead of spending time with her mom.
We can only assume that "they do their job". Well, it is unlikely that we can clarify if they are just loitering around or working like nuts over this (not enough data syndrom, i guess).
Yeah we don't really know if anything has been done about it: we're never told. But we can assume nothing has as there was no mention of anything from the doctor that checked out Ushio.
That said, given the fact how Nagisa's illness is bluntly idiopathic, that is really starting from scratch. Ideally, you cannot expect real research unless it is really lifethreatening on the long run.
Nagisa's health was known very poor, but it didn't prevent her to live normally, unless extreme situation came out. Therefore, you can't exactly expect research on the move for a dodgy and vicious illness that has no real etiology or symptoms aside of a strong and chronic fever, compared to usual and much "deadlier" ones (reality speaking or not).
Once Ushio was alive, none expected her to be afflicted by the same pathology, therefore, there was no room for time for research either. And once it hit her, it is too late (again, realistically speaking).
Which is kind of what I expected to happen. I'm not expecting a cure; I'm expecting the process of researching it to have started. Don't most rare diseases start off similarly? They have to start somewhere. And it was life threatening. Nagisa was supposed to die at age 5, but miraculously survived. Her illness seems to be very similar to AIDS (in effect, not necessarily the process). AIDS similarly results in people potentially dying from simple colds and fevers, and yet it's been researched for a long time. Granted, the difference in people affected. But that's why I'm not saying that I expect a full-fledged research project to be underway, but the gears should start to move with some calls to other hospitals to check for other patients with similar symptoms. They all probably start out like this. But alas, we're dealing with the weak body/illness plot device, so there's only so much we can really expect.
Magic 1000 year old curse
I actually didn't have any problem really with this one as it was kind of tied into destiny which doesn't feel as contrived.
I'm going to go watch some Minami Ke now and cheer up.
Yeah we don't really know if anything has been done about it: we're never told. But we can assume nothing has as there was no mention of anything from the doctor that checked out Ushio.
Which is kind of what I expected to happen. I'm not expecting a cure; I'm expecting the process of researching it to have started. Don't most rare diseases start off similarly? They have to start somewhere. And it was life threatening. Nagisa was supposed to die at age 5, but miraculously survived. Her illness seems to be very similar to AIDS (in effect, not necessarily the process). AIDS similarly results in people potentially dying from simple colds and fevers, and yet it's been researched for a long time. Granted, the difference in people affected. But that's why I'm not saying that I expect a full-fledged research project to be underway, but the gears should start to move with some calls to other hospitals to check for other patients with similar symptoms. They all probably start out like this. But alas, we're dealing with the weak body/illness plot device, so there's only so much we can really expect.
I actually didn't have any problem really with this one as it was kind of tied into destiny which doesn't feel as contrived.
The thing is rare genetic diseases are usually initially misdiagnosed, and unlike the world of tv dramas such as grey's anatomy and house, these cases are actually complex and if their based in genetics, if there is very little record even with gene mapping a proper diagnosis is hard to come up with, thus you can only created an educated prognosis from the symptons. Also if the person died young, and didn't pass on their genes and the death is ruled natural or isn't investigated further, a history of the genetics is lost. Basically I could go on for pages about the genetics behind on how to study a rare allele/disease causing factor but for brevity, one or two cases of an unknown ailment is not going to get the research done. Genetic mapping is expensive and unless its a severe and wide reaching genetic disorder basic blood tests won't help solve the issue.
They didn't diagnose either Nagisa or Ushio though. They simply admitted they had no idea what was wrong with them. And there's no reason to believe that there are only 2 people suffering from it (besides the anime telling us so). Probability won't allow for such a thing to happen. Strange illnesses have to be noted somewhere and brought up from time to time. Similar cases will pop up here and there over time and eventually it'll snowball into some action being taken to further research the illness.
It is probably a good thing that the Haruhi-chan episodes have been coming out right after Clannad fets released. A good laugh can heal after many a tears that episodes like many of the last few from Clannad have been.
They didn't diagnose either Nagisa or Ushio though. They simply admitted they had no idea what was wrong with them. And there's no reason to believe that there are only 2 people suffering from it (besides the anime telling us so). Probability won't allow for such a thing to happen. Strange illnesses have to be noted somewhere and brought up from time to time. Similar cases will pop up here and there over time and eventually it'll snowball into some action being taken to further research the illness.
This is not always the case, when dealing with genetics, if the genetic defect is spread across multiple chromosomes then the probability of additional people with the disease during the same time period skyrocket, even in its simplist form rare genetic disorders are hard to study due to crossing over in meiosis. Even with a population of 6 billion, the probabilities for complex genetic disorders in a given population are so low that if a case does happen that they would be able to pool the information is highly unlikely, just due to the logistics of things.
This is not always the case, when dealing with genetics, if the genetic defect is spread across multiple chromosomes then the probability of additional people with the disease during the same time period skyrocket, even in its simplist form rare genetic disorders are hard to study due to crossing over in meiosis. Even with a population of 6 billion, the probabilities for complex genetic disorders in a given population are so low that if a case does happen that they would be able to pool the information is highly unlikely, just due to the logistics of things.
You mean the opposite here right? But time also plays a role in probability. So chances would (slightly) increase. The logistics wouldn't be so difficult as I can't fathom that they don't report and centralize rare illnesses. There have to be researchable reports and cases.
But there's also no guarantee that this is a genetic disorder. What leads you to believe that it is? Just cause it's probably likely?
Also remember that Clannad was written before 2004 by people who may or may not have any knowledge on genetics past the high school or basic college understanding from whenever their textbooks were written. It is a basic plot device that has been used for many years. Be it a mystery disease or even a named disease that doesn't work like the real thing, or an older story using a older (now easily prevented or cured) disease, it is still the same plot device.
MeoTwister5
2009-03-06, 21:22
You mean the opposite here right? But time also plays a role in probability. So chances would (slightly) increase. The logistics wouldn't be so difficult as I can't fathom that they don't report and centralize rare illnesses. There have to be researchable reports and cases.
But there's also no guarantee that this is a genetic disorder. What leads you to believe that it is? Just cause it's probably likely?
Genetic testing takes an assload of money, and pinpoint detection of genetic defects down to the loci, amino acid errors and codon triplets is still ludicrously hard.
Master Chibi
2009-03-06, 21:25
1. Fuck this show.
2. Fuck. This. Show.
3. Fuck. This. Show.
4. Fuck. This. Show.
Whoever the hell is behind Clannad can kiss my magnificent white ass.
Let's take one character, shove him into everyone else's damn life, have him fix their problems, grant them all happy endings, and then just fuck him over in the cruelest, most heart wrenching ways possible.
Let's make him feel guilty about his father he hated for half his life.
Let's kill off the woman he fell in love with, that changed his life for the better.
Then, let's have him rot in despair and mental distraught for five damn years as his kid is handled by her parents.
And then, when everything manages to get back on track, when the clouds seems to part, and you finally get those rays of hope to shine upon you as fulfill your duty as a father to the most well behaved, adorable daughter on the planet, we'll kill her too.
The best part? They'll both succumb to some inexplicable, incurable, unidentifiable disease that likely holds connections to this absolutely bullshit alternate fantasy world symbolism that we've been running with the show since the first damn episode.
This is too much. Way, way, way, over the line. It is IMPOSSIBLE that I'm going to accept whatever garbage they hand to us as a link between the 'disease' and them dieing and that girl and her robot. Shoving 2 minute intervals sporadically into the show, and emptying the damn budget into it to make it as shiny and 'meaningful' as possible doesn't do jack shit to make me care about it, I've never given a damn for it because they've never explained it to us. The vague nature of it turned me off the more they waved it around in our face, especially when I actually began to care for the show and what it was doing with its characters. Empty, monotone, droning dialogue never helped matters either.
So, unless Ushio comes back (I don't care if she's a walking undead toddler at this point) I'm just getting ready for the show to feed me ammo that I can throw into my hate machine, because it's been itching for this opportunity for 40+ episodes now.
I'm not saying they should jump into genetic research. I'm not delusional about the costs behind it contrary to what some posters seem to believe. I'm looking for the amassing of information on this illness. When you encounter an unknown illness, as a doctor you don't just say "Sorry about that. Have a nice day". You would start looking around for information on it (in, realistically, probably rare cases due to various factors that hamper the system).
Chibi chill, theres still another episode, just relax, I suggest you don't play the game lulz
Amassing information is great and all, but if its unknown a general physician can only direct someone to a specialist and because tomoya isn't wealthy him actually being able to see a specialist is rare. Doctors don't just right down symptons and file them away, there no real system for that especially if its unknown.
to answer your previous question, no they would skyrocket, living in the same time period helps because connection can't be made with the snap of a finger, this especially true if you look at it in a statistically relevance issue. Since your sample is based on anecdotal evidence from the past how trust worthy is that data, common symptons could have been overlooked, when you combine the sound medicine and sound statistics behind it time is against genetic understanding.
another note this is why the medical digital database that president obama wants to create is an AWESOME idea, much better than fucking star wars... god Ronald Reagan
Amassing information is great and all, but if its unknown a general physician can only direct someone to a specialist and because tomoya isn't wealthy him actually being able to see a specialist is rare.
True. But I never saw the option raised.
Doctors don't just right down symptons and file them away, there no real system for that especially if its unknown.
Not necessarily file them away, but I can't see that nothing is done about it. (Except for small country hospitals). Medical advancement was not facilitated by doctors just forgetting patient's symptoms after they leave, and by not sharing information. But we don't have to continue discussing this anymore as I know I'm asking a bit much. I'm just a little bothered that absolutely no effort was made, it was just game over from the get go.
Kaisos Erranon
2009-03-06, 21:53
*rage*
Whoa. Rage.
You know, I'd just like to mention that this is exactly the mood the creators probably intended. That and sorrow.
I'm glad you actually managed to care about the characters though.
Just wait for next episode. Also, check your PM box in like 5 minutes.
I expected that RAGE. Just be glad this isn't Spanish Civil War inspired authors...because then you would definately have a sad ending.
Just think of it this way. If the endng was truely going to be sad, this would have been the last episode. The is one more, thus the chances for some kind of resolution are high. Plus there are two othe episodes after that (we don't have much clue what they are about yet.)
None can escape from the Big Dango Family...Ushio wil make sure of that for Nagisa.
Reckoner
2009-03-06, 22:44
No matter what Clannad does next episode, this was just a terrible episode. The episodes since 18 have been downright poor. Rated it a 6/10, and that only because of the well done scenes between Akio and Tomoya (Why KyoAni does not try to go after some more of this subtle drama is beyond me... Episode 17 of this series was possibly the best of Clannad).
My criticism would be mainly targeted at KEY, since they made the source material, but Kyoto Animations does not necessarily deserve to have them as a scape goat. But after seeing what they have done with Munto (DROPPED!!!!), perhaps I do not want to see anything beyond adapting the source material faithfully.
First, this episode was just a repeat of episode 16. There is no justification for this that I would consider reasonable. The last scene was also, as I did even get mocked about earlier in this thread, ripped off from the last scenes of Air. Unimaginative does not even begin to describe how I feel about this.
I do not know why KEY feels that they have to bombard the viewers with the same type of themes and drama, over, and over, and over again. OK, Tomoya's life is tragic; he already lost his mother, spent years on bad terms with his father, lost the love of his life, and now they kill off his daughter? It gets old real fast, and any point that they are trying to make beyond this has sure passed me, or is going to be unimpressive. It is overkill, I lost any sympathy for the characters over the last 3 episodes because of the endless attempts at tear-jerking moments.
Now I am sure they are going to sugar coat this and leave you with a happy and warm feeling when this is all done as, after all, this is KEY's work and they are the ultimate easy bake drama makers. I expect something magical to happen in this show, since well, what KEY show does not have some incredible magic influence its story by the end?
All I know is that the only KEY work I have enjoyed even a reasonable amount has been Kanon 2006, and even that made me go "meh." Because of this, I'm probably never going to pick up another god awful work made my KEY ever again. Clannad is strike three, and they are out of here. My own disbelief of how popular these works were was all that kept me watching.
I have to agree that Ushio's death lacked impact for me as it felt repetitive (both within Clannad and with Air). Nagisa's death scene also lacked impact for me for various reasons. But you thought episode 18 was horrible?
No matter what Clannad does next episode, this was just a terrible episode. The episodes since 18 have been downright poor. Rated it a 6/10, and that only because of the well done scenes between Akio and Tomoya (Why KyoAni does not try to go after some more of this subtle drama is beyond me... Episode 17 of this series was possibly the best of Clannad).
My criticism would be mainly targeted at KEY, since they made the source material, but Kyoto Animations does not necessarily deserve to have them as a scape goat. But after seeing what they have done with Munto (DROPPED!!!!), perhaps I do not want to see anything beyond adapting the source material faithfully.
First, this episode was just a repeat of episode 16. There is no justification for this that I would consider reasonable. The last scene was also, as I did even get mocked about earlier in this thread, ripped off from the last scenes of Air. Unimaginative does not even begin to describe how I feel about this.
I do not know why KEY feels that they have to bombard the viewers with the same type of themes and drama, over, and over, and over again. OK, Tomoya's life is tragic; he already lost his mother, spent years on bad terms with his father, lost the love of his life, and now they kill off his daughter? It gets old real fast, and any point that they are trying to make beyond this has sure passed me, or is going to be unimpressive. It is overkill, I lost any sympathy for the characters over the last 3 episodes because of the endless attempts at tear-jerking moments.
Now I am sure they are going to sugar coat this and leave you with a happy and warm feeling when this is all done as, after all, this is KEY's work and they are the ultimate easy bake drama makers. I expect something magical to happen in this show, since well, what KEY show does not have some incredible magic influence its story by the end?
All I know is that the only KEY work I have enjoyed even a reasonable amount has been Kanon 2006, and even that made me go "meh." Because of this, I'm probably never going to pick up another god awful work made my KEY ever again. Clannad is strike three, and they are out of here. My own disbelief of how popular these works were was all that kept me watching.
Boohoo, oh wait not that big of a loss. Look if you were expecting realism you really picked the wrong show, and whining about it every week becomes very grating, why are you still watching the show, why are you still bitching to the fans who enjoy the show? I don't understand the mentality other than wanting to dance around the forum going, "key sucks" At least put a critic that could be used not just based on the fact that you find the entire story contrived, the fact that you have to bring up how much you hate the series just serves zero purpose to the discussion of the episode at hand. Oh well you'll be back to bash next weeks episode too so I guess I'll save my rant for next week too.
thundrakkon
2009-03-06, 23:11
I am at a loss for words. How can they do this to Tomoya? They have taken everything away from his life. How cruel can they be? He tried to be a good person, and they reward him with despair?!?! What type of life lesson is that?
Anyway, if I recall correctly, Nagisa's illness suddenly came to her. She was healthy, and then bam, she become chronically ill for no real reason. I really hope they explain this sudden illness in the last episode.
If I had to guess,
Nagisa's soul looks like it was warped and split to this alternate world, and her life force weakened. When she died, she left her soul with Ukio. Ultimately, I think they need to recombine the souls for her to be whole again.
Well, that's my interpretation so far from what I can understand.
This is just so depressing. I just hope that the ending will bring me out of my despair, but done well and not give some convenient plot device to try to make me happy.
Reckoner
2009-03-06, 23:18
Boohoo, oh wait not that big of a loss. Look if you were expecting realism you really picked the wrong show, and whining about it every week becomes very grating, why are you still watching the show, why are you still bitching to the fans who enjoy the show? I don't understand the mentality other than wanting to dance around the forum going, "key sucks" At least put a critic that could be used not just based on the fact that you find the entire story contrived, the fact that you have to bring up how much you hate the series just serves zero purpose to the discussion of the episode at hand. Oh well you'll be back to bash next weeks episode too so I guess I'll save my rant for next week too.
You really like to get on my case now don't you?
Please learn that other posters on this forum are allowed to express opinions different than you are own. I am sorry that I do share the same feelings as the masses of anime fans out there.
And look, I never even mentioned the word "realism" in my post, and go learn some reading comprehension before criticizing how I put no reasons for disliking this show or perhaps KEY in general.
I did not get the number of the train that just ran me over....
:(
You really like to get on my case now don't you?
Please learn that other posters on this forum are allowed to express opinions different than you are own. I am sorry that I do share the same feelings as the masses of anime fans out there.
And look, I never even mentioned the word "realism" in my post, and go learn some reading comprehension before criticizing how I put no reasons for disliking this show or perhaps KEY in general.
Your repeating yourself like a broken record
You really like to get on my case now don't you?
Please learn that other posters on this forum are allowed to express opinions different than you are own. I am sorry that I do share the same feelings as the masses of anime fans out there.
And look, I never even mentioned the word "realism" in my post, and go learn some reading comprehension before criticizing how I put no reasons for disliking this show or perhaps KEY in general.
I could careless if you like the show or dislike, but constantly week after week, to no avail bashing episode after episode for the same reason is boring, if you don't like the show don't watch it. That was your argument about WA, and you know what I did stop watching. I mean its like asking a Christian pastor to accept Allah as his god, its not going to happen. If your rants didn't sound the same each time you bash the show then it wouldn't matter, but you torture yourself to watch the show and then you feel it necessary to torture the rest of us with your rants that don't generate any discussion. Do you see me posting about shows I don't like? No. What's the point of vocalizing your opinion when your sole purpose is to state the obvious, and flaunt your dissent with the majority? I mean its not like you haven't done this before, you started this pretty much at episode 16 and haven't let up an inch. We get it. Really just tell me your purpose and I'll shut up.
MeoTwister5
2009-03-06, 23:51
For the next 6 days I'm gonna live uner the assumption that episode 22 will make it all right for all the ragers. Maybe not the haters, but if they still hate the show time to drop and not bitch like a little kid about it whenever they feel like it, cause it's shallow and immature of character.
Tempester
2009-03-06, 23:52
I mean its like asking a Christian pastor to accept Allah as his god, its not going to happen.
Allah = God. The difference between those words is like the difference between "Mister Brown" and "Buraun-san". Both cases refer to the same being.
Also, Tomoya should be awarded a special appreciation award for "Most Unlucky Character". :heh:
Reckoner
2009-03-06, 23:54
Really just tell me your purpose and I'll shut up.
I'm acting as a critic, and btw, I did rate episode 18 a 10. But, I pretty much feel they smeared its effect on me with episodes 19-21. A critic usually offers their opinion, good or bad, on a work.
I post because if someone reads these threads, and they do not enjoy it like me, they can see that there is someone who felt the same way the whole ride through.
It is boring to have homogeneous comments in threads, I just offer the other side of the coin since I am here.
For the next 6 days I'm gonna live uner the assumption that episode 22 will make it all right for all the ragers. Maybe not the haters, but if they still hate the show time to drop and not bitch like a little kid about it whenever they feel like it, cause it's shallow and immature of character.
Bitching about bitchers :rolleyes:. Get over yourself, and calling people like me haters does many an injustice.
MeoTwister5
2009-03-07, 00:00
I'm acting as a critic, and btw, I did rate episode 18 a 10. But, I pretty much feel they smeared its effect on me with episodes 19-21. A critic usually offers their opinion, good or bad, on a work.
I post because if someone reads these threads, and they do not enjoy it like me, they can see that there is someone who felt the same way the whole ride through.
It is boring to have homogeneous comments in threads, I just offer the other side of the coin since I am here.
Bitching about bitchers :rolleyes:. Get over yourself, and calling people like me haters does many an injustice.
I would, but I wasn't talking about you, because I can at least understand your POV as I didn't like the episode either except for the ending.:rolleyes:
Allah = God. The difference between those words is like the difference between "Mister Brown" and "Buraun-san". Both cases refer to the same being.
Also, Tomoya should be awarded a special appreciation award for "Most Unlucky Character". :heh:
Many Muslims don't believe that Allah is God in the christian sense, well actually your right i probably should have used jehovah or something on the lines of that.
@Reckoner
Critics are fine, but the way you come off is this really bitter person who seems to completely have missed the entire style of the show. Its not like the show itself screams out "I have nothing to do with magic" but instead it literaly beats you over the head with the heavy hand allusions to mysticism and the surreal. Your expectations don't match what the show has already set up for expectations. Its like asking Friends to be a crime drama. Of course your opinion is welcomed but your comments just sound like you formulated them without even watching the episode. And yes I completely agree that homogenous comments are boring but your comments never seem to actually seem to create any discussions other than the typical "your opinion is wrong"
Reckoner
2009-03-07, 00:23
@Reckoner
Critics are fine, but the way you come off is this really bitter person who seems to completely have missed the entire style of the show. Its not like the show itself screams out "I have nothing to do with magic" but instead it literaly beats you over the head with the heavy hand allusions to mysticism and the surreal. Your expectations don't match what the show has already set up for expectations. Its like asking Friends to be a crime drama. Of course your opinion is welcomed but your comments just sound like you formulated them without even watching the episode. And yes I completely agree that homogenous comments are boring but your comments never seem to actually seem to create any discussions other than the typical "your opinion is wrong"
I think you might be misunderstanding, or misconstruing information from my posts. My expectations as I come into this show, or pretty much KEY shows in general, is that I am going to see sugary sweet drama that at times may want to make me gag. Now if done well, I actually do enjoy this brand of drama. Best example to me for this is Ef~A tale of Memories/Melodies. However, there are many reasons why I end up disliking Key shows, and in this episode one was the repetitiveness of its themes and events.
Also, I realize that the way I may speak in my posts can give a sense of "You're opinions suck and are not valid." Sorry, that is not my intention, I just happen to have very strong opinions that well, I hope you would not expect me to not consider my opinion the best, as well, why else would I or anyone hold an opinion if I/they did not think it was the best?
I cannot see why my posts do not generate discussion. I put out points there (ex: repetitiveness) that may be argued against. It is up to you guys if you want to take a differing opinion and discuss it.
MeoTwister5
2009-03-07, 00:31
Ok since it's been out, I'll state my beef with Ushio's condition and why I didn't like it, VN and series wise.
First off, I do not believe that Ushio's and Nagisa's conditions are the same, and maybe not even within the realm of medical science, for the following reasons:
1. Nagisa received it out in the snow, was in serious condition until Akio brought him to the spot. Ushio got sick all of a sudden, and died without any critical worsening of her condition. This RARELY happens in any fatal pathology.
2. Nagisa died during childbirth and not directly due to the disease. While the disease is a compunding factor, it did not kill her per se. If at all, Ushio died as a result of her disease.
3. Symptomatically speaking there are differences. Nagisa relapses from time to time due to stress and similar factors. Ushio is semi-bedridden. Nagisa is almost perfectly healthy when she is asymptomatic. Ushio gets progressively worse very slowly before she suddenly dies.
4. If this were genetic, mother and daughter would have shown similarities in condition, which they don't. If it was a pathogen, the epidemiology is way way off, and you won't pass that on to an offspring, and it doesn't take into account why only these 2 are susceptible.
I really really didn't like the way Ushio's condition was presented, so much that on my second play of the game I actually skipped the start of her descent unto death because it irritated me. Even though I am one open to mysticism, and have already agreed to the plot's insinuation of less than real causes, the fact remains that Ushio's condition was so skewed and detached from Nagisa's that it was difficult to draw a fair parallelism. Yeah they're both sick, but nothing tells me it's the same thing, which tells me instead that she's sick for the reason of making her sick, and to give Tomoya something to brood over about.
Honestly for me, it isn't the fact that both of them are sick, it's the fact that they failed to draw any recognizable similarities and patterns to Nagisa, which would have drawn the same degree of emotion, attachment and realizations, that would have allowed us to make that connection between mother and daughter and the fate that they share. Instead it felt like she was simply sick, not even to the point of death, just give another moment of suffering for a man who at this point deserves all the happiness he can get.
Ushio's sickness lost most of it's meaning when it felt like she was just sick by some sick joke. Even if a mystical, all-encompassing force was behind the wheel, her sickness felt all the more disconnected from the overall theme and mysticism of the story. It felt almost like an isolated event, apart from the overall tone and flow of the story. I for one would have greatly enjoyed (in maybe a self-suffering sadomasochistic way :p) if they made her condition almost exactly the same as Nagisa. Given a few more years, relapsing sickness, and then a physically traumatic to finally cause her body to go over the edge.
The parallelisms and interplay of life, love, death, happiness and sadness between the characters is what I loved about this show, and this story section fails to show me why I Clannad is some of the best 30+ hours of reading I have ever spent.
Reckoner
2009-03-07, 00:37
Ushio's sickness lost most of it's meaning when it felt like she was just sick by some sick joke. Even if a mystical, all-encompassing force was behind the wheel, her sickness felt all the more disconnected from the overall theme and mysticism of the story. It felt almost like an isolated event, apart from the overall tone and flow of the story.
Yes, I agree, I could not articulate this like you did. Cookie for you.
soulgoodguy
2009-03-07, 00:39
okay rage clannad fans
just get ready for the Deus Ex Machina ending :D
and also here is a hint
think mai hime and you will get the picture ;)
basically i'm just cranky, because i frequent some other sub forums that really tend to drive me insane cough naruto cough. And the same constant repetitive arguments constantly come up with out real definitive reasoning or just outright ignoring of discussion to go on shipping wars just frustrates me, also it didn't help the fact that some of your previous posts critiqued the same instances for being too magical. Oh but man oh man do i wish i could get rid of some people in the naruto thread... alas sigh
MeoTwister5
2009-03-07, 00:43
Yeah but in my case when I first realized she was gonna get sick, I actually wanted her to get sick the way Nagisa did (I am an evil bastard yes ok great:)), and in fact was expecting her to end up like her mother, and thus leave me once again a dehydrated and emotionless husk of a human being.
But they didn't. I actually felt some WTF moments reading it through it and wondering how I'm supposed to make the connections if she's sick in a very different way.
just get ready for the Deus Ex Machina ending
Just checking here, do you know what Deus Ex Machina actually means?
MeoTwister5
2009-03-07, 00:48
Well... it could feel like Deus Ex Machina if you haven't figured out where it's coming from...
Ice Block
2009-03-07, 00:59
Quoting myself from almost a year ago: This way, viewers will be left with the gamers' reactions after finishing normal AS for 1 week :heh:.
-other spoilerific content snipped-Just as planned!
Here, Tomoya is faced with the very essence of despair - getting your hopes up, gaining the courage and will to fight once more, and getting those very same feelings so easily crushed by a simple repeating cycle. But how much despair can one man take? How much resilience does it take to survive these coordinated bursts? How much of this can the viewers handle?
...
7/10, as it was pretty much Nagisa's death all over again (a bit less meaningful and a wee bit rushed [?], though I can't really complain any more since this was still better than how the VN handled it), with all the parallels between the two events. The only thing I wasn't expecting though is how they ended this one with the choice at the hill, but with it adding a cliff-hanger-like feel was a nice touch.
And damn, I fell asleep while writing this that I forgot what else I had in my mind, so let me just say that I don't really try to nitpick all the scientific/medical details since there are many more flawed hows and whys than there are whats in this genre.
Ah, Ushio... you were cute till the end. Well, at least for the first time you are able to meet Mama. For the first time, since you pretty much ignored her when you were born. ;)
dgreater1
2009-03-07, 01:16
I forgot what else I had in my mind, so let me just say that I don't really try to nitpick all the scientific/medical details since there are many more flawed hows and whys than there are whats in this genre.
I don't usually nitpick on something from medical. Believe it or not, there are cases of a person who had an unknown disease when they were kids and the disease weren't diagnosed and found out but suddenly disappeared. (I'm looking at a mirror right now, yup, I'm looking at myself.)
The only answer that comes? Bad health, cursed by some creatures (the heck, duwende, maligno, impakto, witch, any mythical, supernatural, folklore etc. would count as an answer. We're talking Asian culture here if you know what we're talking about. The reason why shamans, faith healer, etc. exist :heh:)
Anyway, doesn't have connection?
Isn't Nagisa's bad health from some unknown source enough?
Nagisa has a bad health since birth, she survived up until the very bad luck of not surviving her labor for Ushio.
Ushio has a bad health from some unknown source as well, she wasn't lucky in surviving her sickly childhood.
The reason why shamans, faith healer, etc. exist
They existed for pretty much everyone throughout history. They aren't uniquely Asian.
I guess it's partly my fault that the whole medical issue got brought up, but even if we set that aside, some other posters and I felt that Ushio's death was handled a little weakly and somewhat contrived. Maybe that's what's feeding the negative energy that drives us to post our complaints on here.
Justin Kim
2009-03-07, 02:07
WHAT? I just watched the subbed version of this episode, and towards the end I was literally rattling my computer screen to see if I had any 'bugs' inside it. My "omg," factor went up -_-. Is episode 22 REALLY the last episode? Cuz if it is, they better COME up with a good conclusion >.< .
This is all I want to say about This Ep. "Goddamint!! Kyoani Must not Screw up On the Last Ep!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:frustrated: or all hell willbreak lose ". Because This series is another "Legend" in the harem drama world and I never have been disappointed on any kyo ani work's about the genre so Dont screw it up.:mad:
kk2extreme
2009-03-07, 03:02
i may be immuned to sadness after this show :heh:
radioIzzy
2009-03-07, 03:14
Will there be a Deus Ex Machina ending?
I just don't know how the series is going to wrap up after the dead of Ushio.
Orbs of light or the imaginary girl have potential for a miracle...
No matter what Clannad does next episode, this was just a terrible episode. The episodes since 18 have been downright poor. Rated it a 6/10, and that only because of the well done scenes between Akio and Tomoya (Why KyoAni does not try to go after some more of this subtle drama is beyond me... Episode 17 of this series was possibly the best of Clannad).
My criticism would be mainly targeted at KEY, since they made the source material, but Kyoto Animations does not necessarily deserve to have them as a scape goat. But after seeing what they have done with Munto (DROPPED!!!!), perhaps I do not want to see anything beyond adapting the source material faithfully.
First, this episode was just a repeat of episode 16. There is no justification for this that I would consider reasonable. The last scene was also, as I did even get mocked about earlier in this thread, ripped off from the last scenes of Air. Unimaginative does not even begin to describe how I feel about this.
I do not know why KEY feels that they have to bombard the viewers with the same type of themes and drama, over, and over, and over again. OK, Tomoya's life is tragic; he already lost his mother, spent years on bad terms with his father, lost the love of his life, and now they kill off his daughter? It gets old real fast, and any point that they are trying to make beyond this has sure passed me, or is going to be unimpressive. It is overkill, I lost any sympathy for the characters over the last 3 episodes because of the endless attempts at tear-jerking moments.
Now I am sure they are going to sugar coat this and leave you with a happy and warm feeling when this is all done as, after all, this is KEY's work and they are the ultimate easy bake drama makers. I expect something magical to happen in this show, since well, what KEY show does not have some incredible magic influence its story by the end?
All I know is that the only KEY work I have enjoyed even a reasonable amount has been Kanon 2006, and even that made me go "meh." Because of this, I'm probably never going to pick up another god awful work made my KEY ever again. Clannad is strike three, and they are out of here. My own disbelief of how popular these works were was all that kept me watching.
okay, you have hang in there for 3 key works and then you gave up, good for you :)
i envy how you can stand watching Key's stories that somehow you hate for about 3 stories and then gave up completely,
if it was me, i gave up on 1 story completely if i saw some major fail or didnt really match my taste (cue : EF tale of memories, oh i just didn't click with that show somehow)
so, bye2 then i wont see you anymore in future key series :D
As I read all of these negative comments, I wonder if most of the people who make them are young and have maybe never experienced real sadness and real suffering yet. Then again, perhaps it's an error of judgement by Key to expect young people to understand. Key's stories (and KyoAni's interpretations) create emotions in the same way as a musical performer creates music, and the emotions impact us in the same way that a piece of music impacts us. The music exists as sounds that reach into our souls, the mechanical details of its creation aren't really relevant. When you listen to Mozart, do you think about horse hair being rubbed across steel and ligaments, or about somebody blowing down a metal tube? No, of course not. Clannad, Kanon, Air and the others are works not of music, but of emotion. They appeal to our emotional sensibilities instead of our auditory ones, and as such are finely-judged masterpieces just like a symphony.
TL;DR: I cried manly tears for 20 minutes.
Then again if you hate classical and only care for the 4 man garage band then maybe you not suited for the orchestra. People have their tastes, its ok to not like something, but to force yourself to stomach something you dislike flies over my head completely. It just doesn't make sense to me.
Also note on the orchestra, why the hell do you have to wear a suit, as a college student I really don't want to have to bust out my suit everytime I want to get a professional playing of say dvorak or rachmaninoff. This is the one thing I hate about the symphony... its basic segregation between the wealthy and the poor. Thats more of a social matter.
ShimatheKat
2009-03-07, 08:21
okay, you have hang in there for 3 key works and then you gave up, good for you :)
i envy how you can stand watching Key's stories that somehow you hate for about 3 stories and then gave up completely,
if it was me, i gave up on 1 story completely if i saw some major fail or didnt really match my taste (cue : EF tale of memories, oh i just didn't click with that show somehow)
so, bye2 then i wont see you anymore in future key series :D
Come on. That's REAL life for you [or at least, half of Japan].
QUOTE=Thoguht;2257541]As I read all of these negative comments, I wonder if most of the people who make them are young and have maybe never experienced real sadness and real suffering yet. [/QUOTE]
Amen to that. This motion is hereby seconded by this delgate-cum-counsellor. ;)
Then again, perhaps it's an error of judgement by Key to expect young people to understand.
But then, at the end of the day, remember CLANNAD [first season]? It was extremely light hearted. So then comes the wham-bang. Like Myself; Yourself, but streched out for 4 times the length.
Key's stories (and KyoAni's interpretations) create emotions in the same way as a musical performer creates music, and the emotions impact us in the same way that a piece of music impacts us. The music exists as sounds that reach into our souls, the mechanical details of its creation aren't really relevant. When you listen to Mozart, do you think about horse hair being rubbed across steel and ligaments, or about somebody blowing down a metal tube? No, of course not. Clannad, Kanon, Air and the others are works not of music, but of emotion. They appeal to our emotional sensibilities instead of our auditory ones, and as such are finely-judged masterpieces just like a symphony.
Cheemnology [a indieginous Singaporean phrase, picked it up there]. Very deep indeed. :D
Also note on the orchestra, why the hell do you have to wear a suit, as a college student I really don't want to have to bust out my suit everytime I want to get a professional playing of say dvorak or rachmaninoff. This is the one thing I hate about the symphony... its basic segregation between the wealthy and the poor. Thats more of a social matter.
Well, it's called CLASSical music for a reason. :heh:
Kinny Riddle
2009-03-07, 08:33
As I read all of these negative comments, I wonder if most of the people who make them are young and have maybe never experienced real sadness and real suffering yet.
Quoted for truth.
I've mentioned this in the spoilers thread before, though I'll say it again. I believe that the intended target audience for Clannad has always been for mature 20-somethings and above who've experienced the toughness of the world beyond school, and not for "bratty, immature teens" who have yet to see anything. (You want to accuse me of being an arrogant old git, go ahead, I'm not taking this back. :cool: )
Edit: Granted, I've seen 20-somethings behave like complete pricks myself time to time again, so I've reworded the post so people don't misunderstand all 20-somethings as "mature". :cool:
MeoTwister5
2009-03-07, 08:39
As I read all of these negative comments, I wonder if most of the people who make them are young and have maybe never experienced real sadness and real suffering yet. Then again, perhaps it's an error of judgement by Key to expect young people to understand. Key's stories (and KyoAni's interpretations) create emotions in the same way as a musical performer creates music, and the emotions impact us in the same way that a piece of music impacts us. The music exists as sounds that reach into our souls, the mechanical details of its creation aren't really relevant. When you listen to Mozart, do you think about horse hair being rubbed across steel and ligaments, or about somebody blowing down a metal tube? No, of course not. Clannad, Kanon, Air and the others are works not of music, but of emotion. They appeal to our emotional sensibilities instead of our auditory ones, and as such are finely-judged masterpieces just like a symphony.
TL;DR: I cried manly tears for 20 minutes.
I'm 24 years old. I've lost an uncle to lung cancer at 16, my grandfather was shot and killed outside his house when I was 18, a friend of mine died of cardiac arrest and another from a drunk driver 2 years ago. I've had a gun pointed at me, I've failed my exams and been retained a year and have almost been alienated from my parents. Don't assume that people who are "young" by whatever definition of the term do not understand sadness. It's insulting.
Young =/= no experiences of sadness.
Yes, Key stories are clearly works of the heart more than it is of the mind, but there is a difference between evoking genuine emotion and simply begging for sympathy. Like I said, this episode ended up trying to beg for the viewers sympathy rather than letting it out naturally on its own. As I said, if they went with trying to mirror Nagisa's conditions for us to draw parallels and connections so that the viewers can immerse themselves in a painfully familiar mode, it would have been a beautiful tragedy, but no. They ended up making it a disjointed attempt at getting our sympathy by instead mimicking an old event in a poorly paced manner. It's still better than the VN at least, but even then it's again hard to make the emotional connection when there appears to be a discrepancy between the story's insinuation that the fates of mother and daughter and intertwined and the manner in which she is forced to meet her demise.
Vegard Aune
2009-03-07, 08:42
...God, I suddenly find it hard to decide whether this is the best series ever or the most horrible thing I've seen in my life...
...No, wait, it's still the best series ever. If this were the final episode, THEN I might have changed my mind, but the preview-music alone gives me at least a tiny hope that it might have a happy ending... Maybe.
ShimatheKat
2009-03-07, 08:44
Quoted for truth.
I've mentioned this in the spoilers thread before, though I'll say it again. I believe that the intended target audience for Clannad has always been for 20-somethings and above ...
Whoa. I NEVER noticed this...
dgreater1
2009-03-07, 08:59
As I read all of these negative comments, I wonder if most of the people who make them are young and have maybe never experienced real sadness and real suffering yet.
Quoted for truth.
I've mentioned this in the spoilers thread before, though I'll say it again. I believe that the intended target audience for Clannad has always been for 20-somethings and above who've experienced the toughness of the world beyond school, and not for "bratty, immature teens" who have yet to see anything. (You want to accuse me of being an arrogant old git, go ahead, I'm not taking this back. :cool: )
All Hail for the Truth! Peeps who's undergoing/underwent the hardship of being independent pretty much is the target audience here. If you're in a wealthy family, then good for you, you might not need to undergo such event in your life. If you've underwent such hard events but found CLANNAD to be meh... I won't say or do anything to you... :heh:
As for people saying, it's all repetitive... I have one message, everything is a cycle. The difference is how much it differs from the previous cycle. If you can't accept that fact, then bear with it.
ShimatheKat
2009-03-07, 09:00
All Hail for the Truth! Peeps who's undergoing/underwent the hardship of being independent pretty much is the target audience here.
Hold on. I was under the idea that this was a "growing up" show, which its intention is to mature your mind.
Also note on the orchestra, why the hell do you have to wear a suit, as a college student I really don't want to have to bust out my suit everytime I want to get a professional playing of say dvorak or rachmaninoff. This is the one thing I hate about the symphony... its basic segregation between the wealthy and the poor. Thats more of a social matter.
I suspect this is a peculiarly American thing. I can't remember the last time I wore a suit to a classical concert, and I've been concert-going for over 40 years.
Young =/= no experiences of sadness.
Originally NOT Posted by Thoguht
As I read all of these negative comments, I wonder if most of the people who make them are young and have therefore never experienced real sadness and real suffering yet.
Well, no, I didn't say that.
As I read all of these negative comments, I wonder if most of the people who make them are young and have maybe never experienced real sadness and real suffering yet.
I was expressing correlation, not causation, but nevertheless I apologise if you felt my comments insulting.
ShimatheKat
2009-03-07, 09:08
I suspect this is a peculiarly American thing. I can't remember the last time I wore a suit to a classical concert, and I've been concert-going for over 40 years.
I thought you meant the performers. For my place, it's just a matter of covering up your arms and legs [read: long sleeves and long pants THAT ARE NOT TRACK PANTS].
Then again, Tokyo has some different laws.
This is Kansai, I guess.
What's there not to lave about Kansai? Especially when Hayate "Sekuhara" Yagami speaks the local dialect.
MeoTwister5
2009-03-07, 09:10
None taken:)
But I just wanted to point out that you don't need to have experienced a great, if not similar, amount of sadness to feel and know what sadness is. It's almost as integral as our genes. Sadness is a natural thing, and yes I did feel sadness when Ushio died, but not as much a powerful and connected one if she died in a more meaningful circumstanced.
dgreater1
2009-03-07, 09:20
Hold on. I was under the idea that this was a "growing up" show, which its intention is to mature your mind.
The viewers should be able to sympathize/emphasize with Tomoya and understand to accept that it happened. It'd be good if the viewer who hasn't experience such event in their life can understand such thing. Your mind wouldn't mature if you can't understand such things. Raging over what happened is all right because it's just temporary and later will found out why but saying it's BAD because that thing happened is not right.
None taken:)
But I just wanted to point out that you don't need to have experienced a great, if not similar, amount of sadness to feel and know what sadness is. It's almost as integral as our genes. Sadness is a natural thing, and yes I did feel sadness when Ushio died, but not as much a powerful and connected one if she died in a more meaningful circumstanced.
My biggest gripe with this argument is death is not always meaningful. People being killed by drunk drivers or by muggers are in no way meaningful. Dying to a mysterious disease doesn't have to meaningful. Though I understand why you feel this way.
I think the concert thing might just be for professionals because for school performances. I just go in a polo and khakis. But I would never do that for a professional concert. Also it might just be westerner thing. I mean I understand the concept, but sometimes I feel like these restrictions just hold back the enjoyment of the listener.
Solafighter
2009-03-07, 09:28
Next episode = Final episode?
WAAAAAAAAAH! :heh:
Holy... :uhoh:
MissInformed
2009-03-07, 09:45
Does it make me a pansy that my husband and I are thinking about waiting a week and watching 21 and 22 back-to-back? :uhoh:
Kinny Riddle
2009-03-07, 11:14
Whoa. I NEVER noticed this...
Now don't go picking on semantics, but I've gone and reworded my post so to make it less ambiguous, just to be safe.
I've seen kids behaving calm and reserved for their age, and I've also seen 20-somethings being complete dicks, but you get the gist of my point.
SaintessHeart
2009-03-07, 11:25
Now don't go picking on semantics, but I've gone and reworded my post so to make it less ambiguous, just to be safe.
I've seen kids behaving calm and reserved for their age, and I've also seen 20-somethings being complete dicks, but you get the gist of my point.
I am 20, almost 21, and I am still acting like a dick (or so people say). However I find such comments unwarranted, barely accountable and prejudicial, because everyone is entitled to a personalised perception, called freedom of thought.
It is something about emotional maturity, and how one view the world. Perspective differs, but there is always a need for balance between pragmatism and idealism, and there is no absolute for any of them because it will simply make one more delusional.
Bringing a reference to the anime, Tomoya's "I hate the city" is due to him being constantly bombarded by unhappy events, such as graduation from high school without a good certification, his misunderstanding of his father, and most of all, the death of his wife. Though I believe in cause and effect, everything done in life always require a healthy dose of luck as there is no such thing as 100% success rate in everything done in life. It may be a cop-out to believe that Tomoya is the bloody most unlucky person from a pragmatic POV, winding down without health and wealth in the end, but it is a known truth in life that shit happens, whether you want it or not.
Whatever it is, when shit falls on you, crawl out and move on. Not everyone has 11 more years to live.
Leo_Otaku
2009-03-07, 12:52
I'm 24 years old. I've lost an uncle to lung cancer at 16, my grandfather was shot and killed outside his house when I was 18, a friend of mine died of cardiac arrest and another from a drunk driver 2 years ago. I've had a gun pointed at me, I've failed my exams and been retained a year and have almost been alienated from my parents. Don't assume that people who are "young" by whatever definition of the term do not understand sadness. It's insulting.
Young =/= no experiences of sadness.
Yes, Key stories are clearly works of the heart more than it is of the mind, but there is a difference between evoking genuine emotion and simply begging for sympathy. Like I said, this episode ended up trying to beg for the viewers sympathy rather than letting it out naturally on its own. As I said, if they went with trying to mirror Nagisa's conditions for us to draw parallels and connections so that the viewers can immerse themselves in a painfully familiar mode, it would have been a beautiful tragedy, but no. They ended up making it a disjointed attempt at getting our sympathy by instead mimicking an old event in a poorly paced manner. It's still better than the VN at least, but even then it's again hard to make the emotional connection when there appears to be a discrepancy between the story's insinuation that the fates of mother and daughter and intertwined and the manner in which she is forced to meet her demise.
But Young= maturity and seeing some 17 year old post a bash post isn't going to pose well.
I just think people should save their complaining until it has ended. And KEY's works are not all the same re-used ideas. Not by a far shot. The message is different in each story. The pieces areall there.
Everyone is all complaining about a reason for sickness and want some realistic reason. This is KEY they have never been "realistic" get over it. You should know by now that is not what they do. Sure their stories arehard to get at first but they have a deeper meaning.
****
It is me or did others think they walked farther in the game? I thought it was a field they went to... I honestly didn't have a problem with this part in the game. Since it came out of nowhere it felt like a sudden loss. That is just me.
Solafighter
2009-03-07, 12:58
Okazaki is more or less loosing everything.
Ushio... I never expected, she would die, too. :(
Oh well, i hope to see a little more "happy" end in the remaining 3 episodes(animenewsnetworks says, it has 24, 22 + 2 extra/special).
I had tears in my eyes this episode. :rolleyes:
As I read all of these negative comments, I wonder if most of the people who make them are young and have maybe never experienced real sadness and real suffering yet.
You're right. Silly me and I apologize for having such a low level of mental maturity at my 20 (soon to be 21) years of age.
Ushio's death was sad; I don't remember reading any posts that sad otherwise. (maybe my reading level hasn't risen to the necessary level yet to appreciate this thread) But did it feel repetitive (Air) and slightly contrived in how it was handled? Yes to some of us. Did this in turn lower the potential emotional impact it could've had? Yes for some of us. I feel for Tomoya and I'm really hoping for something happy to come his way next episode. But I think the fact that Episode 18 carried much more emotional impact (for some of us) than 16 or this one, says something.
This episode's end was dramatically tragic for me, I found it a bit unexpected tbh.
Kinny Riddle
2009-03-07, 13:55
I am 20, almost 21, and I am still acting like a dick (or so people say). However I find such comments unwarranted, barely accountable and prejudicial, because everyone is entitled to a personalised perception, called freedom of thought.
It is something about emotional maturity, and how one view the world. Perspective differs, but there is always a need for balance between pragmatism and idealism, and there is no absolute for any of them because it will simply make one more delusional.
I don't know whether you're agreeing or disagreeing with me. From what I've read, you're having a go at my definition (but I've already said don't be too strict about it) but not my meaning.
Yes, Key stories are clearly works of the heart more than it is of the mind, but there is a difference between evoking genuine emotion and simply begging for sympathy. Like I said, this episode ended up trying to beg for the viewers sympathy rather than letting it out naturally on its own. As I said, if they went with trying to mirror Nagisa's conditions for us to draw parallels and connections so that the viewers can immerse themselves in a painfully familiar mode, it would have been a beautiful tragedy, but no. They ended up making it a disjointed attempt at getting our sympathy by instead mimicking an old event in a poorly paced manner. It's still better than the VN at least, but even then it's again hard to make the emotional connection when there appears to be a discrepancy between the story's insinuation that the fates of mother and daughter and intertwined and the manner in which she is forced to meet her demise.
I agree with Meo about the anime - that is the way that the story of Ushio's death unfolded did seem forced and an attempt at generating our sympathy for Tomoya. I also found that the death of Ushio did not have the same effect as Nagisa's passing or Tomoya and Ushio's reunion. If the anime producers have improved upon how the story was presented in the visual novel then at least that is a good thing.
I think I would have told the story in several episodes - one just wasn't enough. Two episodes would have been better. We saw the story of Nagisa's death build over the course of several episodes whereas with Ushio, she was sick at the end of episode 20 and then she died an episode later.
I am curious though to know how anyone else might improve the story telling in this episode? What could have been done differently?
I am curious though to know how anyone else might improve the story telling in this episode? What could have been done differently?
That's a very difficult question and a very subjective one. What is great is different for everyone. But like you said, increase the amount of time devoted to its build up. Make it less obvious (like we're being spoon fed) and more of a struggle. And I would like to see other characters' reactions. That’s one thing that's been bothering me a lot this season.
But if you're looking for a rewrite of the scene, then maybe some fanfic people can help you there. Or I may post a little bit if something comes to me.
chikorita157
2009-03-07, 14:56
Episode 21 is very melancholic throughout the whole episode leading up to Ushio's death (as expected) and I have the long feeling of wanting to cry throughout this episode, but I felt that that the death is a little forced (in comparison with Episode 16). Still, Kyoani still did a good job on it. Hopefully the ending will be a happy one...
Rating: 8.7/10 -> 9/10
I'm just going to accept the "uncurable illness" thing, though it's difficult not to be infuriated by it. We can assume Furukawas already did everything possible to find a cure and so they gave up quickly in Ushio's case. That stuff is out of camera because the viewers want to see Clannad and not a medical drama/documentary on genetic disease.
Up til now this has just been an anime I've been "following" but now I really can't wait for the last episode. It's strange that this kind of sad episode would be a precursor for the climax, but it's working well. And so 9/10.
kk2extreme
2009-03-07, 15:27
lesson of the day, dont go after physically weak girls, no matter how cute and nice they are. You may end up losing you wife and daughter, and end up like tomoya :heh:
Tiberium Wolf
2009-03-07, 15:54
Humm... Why is everyone complaining about the incurable illness? The illness is not the focus here. I like the fact that there is no info of the illness. Having no info means you spend less time working around it.
TenkenXD
2009-03-07, 16:14
This episode made me really sad. It was good nonetheless but the part where Ushio says I love you to Tomoya just ripped my heart out.
Well, it wasn't anything new...just depressing. However, at least this left me with something to look forward to. We're almost done folks.
P.S. I just read Hamlet in my lit class today. WEIRD how there are so many signs of death are around me...
Guardian Enzo
2009-03-07, 16:28
This is not a bash post - I'm still watching, after all. But I do think it's valid to point out the emotional pandering in this story as it compares to, say, Kanon. All of the payoffs there were earned by layer upon layer of emotional subtlety. There was never any need to hammer the viewer into an emotional response the way Clannad often does. That's why the emotional climaxes here have so much less impact (other than the reconciliation between Tomoya and his father, which was subtle and beautiful).
3 or 4 per remaining episode and maybe they'll be able to kill every character with any significance. I'm quite disappointed how hard the shit hit the fan. Would be a bit of a stretch to end the series on something even remotely resembling high note.
Didn't get soppy over this episode. Frankly it pissed me off. :frustrated:
Sigh once again. Good job to Tomoya. That's the part where you DON'T listen to your daughter who wants to go outside.
And what's with this disease? Unknown disease that makes you uber weak every Winter and eventually kills you? That's like worse than Cancer....
kk2extreme
2009-03-07, 18:31
^move to hawaii or may be okinawa, where it is always summer, then the disease wont surface :D
IRJustman
2009-03-07, 19:17
3 or 4 per remaining episode and maybe they'll be able to kill every character with any significance. I'm quite disappointed how hard the shit hit the fan. Would be a bit of a stretch to end the series on something even remotely resembling high note.
Didn't get soppy over this episode. Frankly it pissed me off. :frustrated:
At this point, I wouldn't jump to conclusions. Just keep watching. The story is not even over yet.
--Ian.
Wandering_Youth
2009-03-07, 19:31
Tragic. *sniff*
Wow. After all Tomoya has been through and finally getting his life back, he hit rock bottom again. I think he's going to loose it mentally for good next episode. I hope the mystery behind the girl a in a desolate world finally make sense on the finally episode.
Sorrow-K
2009-03-07, 19:40
The only word I can think to describe this episode: cruel.
I'm struggling to think of things to say about this episode. I can see why people are so angry with it, because it's hard to escape the feeling that we're being toyed with (and so is Tomoya). I'm waiting for the next episode before passing judgement, but it's hard to see how we can get a happy ending out of this without it resorting to some sort of deus ex machina.The existence of the Illusionary World isn't a DEM of itself, but if it can interact with the normal world, it is, because we haven't been shown that before, it's merely been implied by something Kotomi said in passing.
I'm surprised that there's only one more episode. I think they could have done a lot more if there were more episodes remaining (I also think they could have done a lot more by not having Ushio die). There's a theme about coping with change which has really come to the fore of this series since Nagisa's death, but I think they might be diluting its message, first by having Ushio die, and then by not giving the series enough time to explore the ramifications. I get the feeling that if there weren't any supernatural forces to help Tomoya out, this would almost destroy him, but I guess what we learned in this episodes is that it was those very supernatural forces that took Nagisa and Ushio from him to begin with.
Justin Kim
2009-03-07, 19:41
The death sequences are getting pretty common.
~Er wait...correction they are common in Key's/KyoAni's works -_-.
For some reason, after all this tragic happening - I didn't feel one bit sad, just frustrated and angered. I have extremely high expectations for the last episode and the 2 other episodes that are supposed to come afterwards. (Possibly Epilogues, arcs, bonus information something like that).
~Another thing, it's going to be quite troublesome for them to develop another plot for the last episode in other to service the fans of Clannad. I mean if I went this far just to mash my F - 5 button everyday to see more Ushio and Tomoya action, then keep on having it wracked. I would quit the show by now.
~Yes, I have sat through 3 of KyoAni's works. Much to my suprise Ushio and Tomoya's sitaution was in comparison to the Air anime. It wasn't really a comparison, much like a feel of huge irony.
~For all those becoming angry, frustrated, mad at the animators; calm down, the whole season isn't over yet - 21 - 22 minutes of show time next week is just about enough to show what happens afterwards. (Just keep hoping, and there are many speculations you can obtain from the show as well, so there is room for alot of possibilities).
~Don't complain about giving up -_- , this thread is about discussing the events that happened within the show without spoiling for others that visit the site on a daily basis. (Persistence is what counts in any works of anime).
NoOneKnowS
2009-03-07, 20:43
Sucks to be Tomoya lol. Very lolworthy for lulz. First is Nagisa, then now his daughter. He should just go kill himself and be together w/ his family off on that wonderland. Or he should just hook up w/ Kyou or whatever and start a new. At least he's safe against that mysterious killer disease that owned his wife and kid. Maybe it's my own fault for forgetting this series is a fantasy since the show felt like some kind of slice-of-life, drama, comedy to me. The fantasy part never strucked me or maybe b/c I just viewed as sort of metaphor or some shit. Oh well.
I really thought the fantasy in this show was way heavier than kanon, and kanon, has fox girls, corpreal coma girls, shaman girls who defeat spirits. If you just think about the countless allusions to the illusory world, and the light orbs, the amount fantasy surpasses kanon, though air its kinda hard to beat.
At this point, I wouldn't jump to conclusions. Just keep watching. The story is not even over yet.
--Ian.
Well...
Kinda expected something like this to happen but can't help but being disappointed that it did.
So I think the damage is pretty much done and I think I can guess where this it's going.
Tomoya has a vision of Nagisa and Ushio, blah blah, find's inner peace and so on crap you have to come up after completely f***ing his life up.
Bets anyone...
Pretty much the only way to recover the damn series would be that Tomoya discovers he's gay and runs off with Youhei... :heh:
Like that's gonna happen.
Don't really like this kind of emotional whoring. That's all.
Oh we're going to make you cry and if we fail we'll break into your house and stick needles under your toenails. End result predictable and extremely forced turns of events.
I really thought the fantasy in this show was way heavier than kanon, and kanon, has
Did you really? I felt that it was heavier in Kanon as the fantasy elements are fairly subtle (for the most part) in Clannad compared to it being a main topic for most of Kanon. Almost every moment in Kanon dealt with some fantasy element, while there were many long streaks of normal life in Clannad. But Clannad being twice as long could have something to do with that.
King Lycan
2009-03-07, 21:01
No Oshio died ??? :( this is to much for tomoya he is going to break
Clannad proportionally is probably not as dense as kanon on fantasy, but most of AS deals with fantasy, Clannad s1 has an entire arc devoted to allusions of the illusory world, I just felt teh volume of fantasy was much greater in this series than kanon.
Clannad proportionally is probably not as dense as kanon on fantasy, but most of AS deals with fantasy, Clannad s1 has an entire arc devoted to allusions of the illusory world, I just felt teh volume of fantasy was much greater in this series than kanon.
Hmm...totaled up maybe. There were 2 seasons to 1 though. The thing that probably makes me feel it was more in Kanon, is that although fantasy was touched on in nearly every episode of Clannad, there were many episodes that didn't lend their entirety to that fantasy element. As with the many flashes of the Illusionary world that only graced the beginning or end of many episodes.
I see your point with kanon, but to say that there were no hints of fantasy in clannad, or it was very sparse is a stretch. I really felt like I was beat over the head with it. I mean fuko arc, nagisa play arc were all signifcant portions of the s1, which was pretty much pure fantasy with slice of life. My point is its a stretch to call clannad predominantly nonfantastical when on further retrospection the amount of fantasy is just astounding.
Because Kyou stays at school after dark to hunt the demons infesting it.
But anyway, as far as Tomoya and Nagisa/Ushio, ive only seen allusions (imaginary world) and those lights (metaphor)
The Fuuko arc doesnt count, that was indeed fantasy and I didnt like that aspect, but most importantly it isnt the Nagisa Arc. Same with Misae, everything else hasnt strayed to far from plausibility.
now if there is some magical fantasy ending, ill not only agree with you, ill be very ticked off that they wasted all of my time viewing the show.
Even though the lights are metaphors they are still fantastical because people can see them, precieve them in their cognition which makes them pure fantasy. If only Tomoya could see light orbs, then I would say yea they just purely metaphorical, and just what he envisions as their happiness, but because Ushio can see them too, it makes my previous statement less valid.
@Alu546
Just think Kanon and Air, then think Clannad, should pretty much tell your answer.
Kaisos Erranon
2009-03-07, 21:37
This show is gonna lose SO many fans next week, it's not even funny.
Generic Asian Guy
2009-03-07, 21:39
Pretty sad episode. 7:15 to 8:40 almost made me tear up.
I think that the last episode is going to focus mostly on the "Other World".
that scene where ushio collapses in the snow didn't quite have as much an impact as nagisa's death.
Dont really mind the repeating style just so long as they do the ending is good
AHH WAIT WAIT WAIT. I'm about to get back into Clannad, I stopped around ep 12, but after ready all this I don't know if I should. I'm a Clannad fan but these post make me scared to watch it all the way to the end...... so much bad stuff happening it seems. To watch or not to watch?
Tempester
2009-03-07, 22:32
AHH WAIT WAIT WAIT. I'm about to get back into Clannad, I stopped around ep 12, but after ready all this I don't know if I should. I'm a Clannad fan but these post make me scared to watch it all the way to the end...... so much bad stuff happening it seems. To watch or not to watch?
Just watch. This show will be a Best Anime contestant for 2009 alongside Gundam 00 and other stuff. It's that awesome.
DragoZERO
2009-03-07, 22:33
http://img90.exs.cx/img90/2365/k1ocray.gif
I really didn't think they'd do that to Ushio. What's worse is if he hadn't taken her out she wouldn't have died like that, although the death would have been inevitable. It wasn't as sad as Nagisa's but I still cried a little. I also didn't realize it was only 22 episodes, so that leaves us one to give us some sort of happy ending or bitter sweet, which it probably will be. I am crushed.
http://img90.exs.cx/img90/2365/k1ocray.gif
http://img90.exs.cx/img90/2365/k1ocray.gif
I really didn't think they'd do that to Ushio. What's worse is if he hadn't taken her out she wouldn't have died like that, although the death would have been inevitable. It wasn't as sad as Nagisa's but I still cried a little. I also didn't realize it was only 22 episodes, so that leaves us one to give us some sort of happy ending or bitter sweet, which it probably will be. I am crushed.
http://img90.exs.cx/img90/2365/k1ocray.gif
WHATTTTTTTTTT?? This is treacherous! I thought it was 24 episode. Man from what I'm reading, it sounds like it's going to be one f'ed up ending. Guess Tomoyo takes over soon? O_o
I see your point with kanon, but to say that there were no hints of fantasy in clannad, or it was very sparse is a stretch.
Oh no, I'm definitely not saying that. Clannad has its fair share of fantasy, no doubt. I'm just saying that Kanon felt like it had more is all.
Kaisos Erranon
2009-03-07, 22:42
Just watch. This show will be a Best Anime contestant for 2009 alongside Gundam 00 and other stuff. It's that awesome.
No it won't.
I guarantee there will be so much RAGE at the "bad storytelling" and "cop-out ending".
What works in a game does not necessarily work in an anime.
And that's why I haven't been watching this show since Nagisa died...
Reckoner
2009-03-07, 22:45
As I read all of these negative comments, I wonder if most of the people who make them are young and have maybe never experienced real sadness and real suffering yet. Then again, perhaps it's an error of judgement by Key to expect young people to understand. Key's stories (and KyoAni's interpretations) create emotions in the same way as a musical performer creates music, and the emotions impact us in the same way that a piece of music impacts us. The music exists as sounds that reach into our souls, the mechanical details of its creation aren't really relevant. When you listen to Mozart, do you think about horse hair being rubbed across steel and ligaments, or about somebody blowing down a metal tube? No, of course not. Clannad, Kanon, Air and the others are works not of music, but of emotion. They appeal to our emotional sensibilities instead of our auditory ones, and as such are finely-judged masterpieces just like a symphony.
TL;DR: I cried manly tears for 20 minutes.
Quoted for truth.
I've mentioned this in the spoilers thread before, though I'll say it again. I believe that the intended target audience for Clannad has always been for mature 20-somethings and above who've experienced the toughness of the world beyond school, and not for "bratty, immature teens" who have yet to see anything. (You want to accuse me of being an arrogant old git, go ahead, I'm not taking this back. :cool: )
But Young= maturity and seeing some 17 year old post a bash post isn't going to pose well.
I just think people should save their complaining until it has ended. And KEY's works are not all the same re-used ideas. Not by a far shot. The message is different in each story. The pieces areall there.
Everyone is all complaining about a reason for sickness and want some realistic reason. This is KEY they have never been "realistic" get over it. You should know by now that is not what they do. Sure their stories arehard to get at first but they have a deeper meaning.
****
It is me or did others think they walked farther in the game? I thought it was a field they went to... I honestly didn't have a problem with this part in the game. Since it came out of nowhere it felt like a sudden loss. That is just me.
These three posts make me want to face palm. Comparing Clannad to the great classical artists? Using age as a true barometer for the enjoyment of a show? And using straw man arguments, over, and over again? Really?
Key stories have never been even close to the most depressing, making you want to go emo shows or movies out there in this world. Ok, they have their tear-jerking moments, but really? Saying that if you do not feel emotion you are immature? Your comments are immature. They sound like "Oh you don't like this, so there must be something wrong with you."
And please do not assume so much about the kind of viewers that like or dislike a show. I may be young, but it is not like I have not experienced my share of hardships in this life. Younger people might tend to be more immature than adults, but correlation does not prove causation.
Nukerjsr
2009-03-07, 22:54
I only have a few short things to say after this fantastic, heart-wrenching episode.
KEY, you brilliant bastards, don't ever use the Mysterious Illness as a scapegoat again. We get it. Life sucks.
It can be stricken with tragedy at any moment. But by creating this, you have isolated most of the viewers from the activity. Even with the use of the mysticism from the illusionary world and how all of these tragic characters are brought together...it's a bit overpowering anyone. Even with the possible good ending, it's going to leave several of us are beyond recovery.
I give it an 8/10, because the moment with Ushio really just got to me. The whole thing where Tomoya is lying to her about where they are and the final "I love you" just hits me. I'm not crying but my mind is slumped lower than it could possibly be. Like losing someone very dire or the bitter ending of a friendship.
No it won't.
I guarantee there will be so much RAGE at the "bad storytelling" and "cop-out ending".
What works in a game does not necessarily work in an anime.
And that's why I haven't been watching this show since Nagisa died...
If you look at as a whole 4 cour series, this is the best of 2009, but as it stands AS will have a lot of competition if its not looked at as a whole. Bad storytelling is just storytelling that doesn't fit the viewers prespective. Oh well, its too early to comment on 2009 because there seem to be some really good things in the pipeline so I'll just say that its really too early to be decisive. Any way if you haven't seen anything past nagisa's death you've missed a lot of great moments.
IRJustman
2009-03-07, 23:06
[Removed.]
There are threads for that purpose. Use them.
--Ian.
Leo_Otaku
2009-03-07, 23:13
These three posts make me want to face palm. Comparing Clannad to the great classical artists? Using age as a true barometer for the enjoyment of a show? And using straw man arguments, over, and over again? Really?
Key stories have never been even close to the most depressing, making you want to go emo shows or movies out there in this world. Ok, they have their tear-jerking moments, but really? Saying that if you do not feel emotion you are immature? Your comments are immature. They sound like "Oh you don't like this, so there must be something wrong with you."
And please do not assume so much about the kind of viewers that like or dislike a show. I may be young, but it is not like I have not experienced my share of hardships in this life. Younger people might tend to be more immature than adults, but correlation does not prove causation.
Okay okay let us back up a bit. What do you think is depressing? To us we believe KEY creates these stories for us.
I'm not saying age has to do with emotion. But age does add to maturity you can not deny that. I found your argument to not be fully explained. You don't have any basic grounds for an argument. You seem to be complaining rather than explaining what you mean.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but if they can't support it well be prepared.
I'm not saying you are immature but if you don't explain things or present them in a proper manner it may seem that way. I did not mean to offend you.
motaku96
2009-03-07, 23:58
I nearly cried. Even though I saw it coming, I was still on the verge of crying. First they kill Nagisa, then they introduce the adorable Ushio and kill her too. It's like ripping my heart out.
What?! The next one is the last episode? I was hoping it'd be a few episodes longer. Well, I'm hoping for a happy ending.
MeoTwister5
2009-03-08, 00:13
Whether or not the final episode will be considered bad storytelling or a copout completely depends on how KyotoAni makes the transition, and as Kaisos said while it works for the game IMHO will not work at all for the anime. I hope the studio knows that, and make the necessary alterations.
The main problem is that in the game, Tomoya and the player are a shared persona within the internal universe, so the player in a way carries with him things that Tomoya does not necessarily carry (I obviously can't say what it is, spoiler sake). In the anime however you really don't share personas, as Tomoya is himself and the viewer is just a viewer, so Tomoya has to carry what he must himself independent of the viewer. This makes the transition between 21 and 22 all the more difficult to do.
Ill buy Ushio making a recovery out of nowhere if told right.
Nagisa being revived is a no.
It would be epic if both death's were permanent and we got to see Tomoya move forward despite all his misfortune, which would be a GREAT ending for me.
If we see Ushio managing a miraculous recovery and Tomoya continuing fatherhood , good ending.
If we get an instant revival of Nagisa and Ushio, everyone lives happily ever after, and it turns out the show wasted the audience's emotions for 5 episodes, then rage. Things will be broken, children will be screaming.
+(i never played AS in clannad, so i dont know what happens, thats just worst case stuff from me)
Reckoner
2009-03-08, 00:44
Okay okay let us back up a bit. What do you think is depressing? To us we believe KEY creates these stories for us.
I'm not saying age has to do with emotion. But age does add to maturity you can not deny that. I found your argument to not be fully explained. You don't have any basic grounds for an argument. You seem to be complaining rather than explaining what you mean.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but if they can't support it well be prepared.
I'm not saying you are immature but if you don't explain things or present them in a proper manner it may seem that way. I did not mean to offend you.
I'm not willing to enter into a debate about age and maturity. If older people want to perceive themselves as being on a higher ground, more power to them.
Anyways, I cannot see what I did not explain in my posts throughout this thread. You are the one who did explain himself. Look at my your post that I quoted you on top of the page, and you can see how you did not explain why you disagreed that I thought it was repetitive. Also, do you care to explain what is a "proper manner" that I seem to lack as well according to you.
And yes, I am complaining. If someone dislikes something, they will complain about it. That is what criticism is... I explained why I dislike it.
EDIT: An example of a depressing anime is Texhnolyze, where there is true despair, and no faith in humanity's future.
So like I just caught up with everything. One big question: WTF HAPPENED TO MY CLANNAD? This is like an endless spiral down into misery. OMG, man this is wrong, anything and everything is damn depressing. Did the writer like go through some depressing phase of his/her life while writing this? There's like some big curse or something around Tomoya. Child dies before parents, then grandchild dies before grandchild. dude come on, this is absolutely wrong. Nagi's parent aren't even like 40 yet, maybe barely even 30. What's with this horrible circle of events? Now Tomoya is going to outlive his own child as well. Man this series better end good......BETTER!!!
Oh, they brilliantly established Ushio's character. Strong kid, makes you want to cry....
Spectacular_Insanity
2009-03-08, 00:54
Well, I just watched it and less than sad, I'm more angry than anything. If for no other reason than they pulled the "mystery incurable disease" thing again, only with Ushio. I mean, Nagisa was one thing - and at least for her, it made sense (it was explained in a fairly logical manner, even if her recovery in the forest was a bit iffy). But for Ushio? I call bullshit! I mean, tell all the dormant stories you want to, it still doesn't make sense that the illness would randomly surface one day, and then be WORSE then Nagisa's. In my personal opinion, this is dangerously close to ruining what has, up until this point, been one of my favorite series. Anyway, that's all I'll say on that since I can't do anything about it anyway.
I don't think I can accept Ushio dying. After all that Nagisa sacrificed for Ushio's birth, I think it's ridiculous, ESPECIALLY considering that I think the onset of Ushio's mystery illness is bullshit in the first place. Not to mention I like her, and I want her to live happily with Tomoya. IS THAT TOO MUCH TO ASK!?!? Apparently for Key, the answer is yes.
I also will not accept Nagisa's revival; if that happens, I'll be furious. I doubt that will happen, but with Key, I just don't freaking know anymore.
I'm praying that Tomoya was mistaken and that Ushio isn't really dead, and that she recovers and they live happily ever after. I pray for some help from that little light that entered Tomoya... hell, I'd accept just about any deus ex machina at this point if it meant Ushio living.
I don't see why Tomoya doesn't run to the hospital instead of sitting in the snow.
Wonder if he realized it's the cold that makes them all weak and stuff.
KyouxTomoya at end to take care of Ushio!!
Remember, no matter the outcome, you had those emotions. They were real. So even if one gets what one considers a worst case situation, what you got out of the last severa episodes will stay with you no matter the ending.
Generic Asian Guy
2009-03-08, 01:11
Remember, no matter the outcome, you had those emotions. They were real. So even if one gets what one considers a worst case situation, what you got out of the last severa episodes will stay with you no matter the ending.
Quod erat demonstrandum (aka QED).
Yes but all urge to rewatch the series will dissappear forever.
Nukerjsr
2009-03-08, 01:25
All these posts make me wonder why KEY isn't cashing in on many of these other alternate endings. May as well get on with the Kotomi or Kyou endings so we can satisfy everyone. (Which would work for after this bad ending)
Sorrow-K
2009-03-08, 01:32
All these posts make me wonder why KEY isn't cashing in on many of these other alternate endings.
Because they're better than that. If you try to please everyone, all it leads to is compromise.
There are parts of the series that should always be watchable. The humorous sections can be watched over and over again.
MeoTwister5
2009-03-08, 01:58
I also do not comprehend why some people are so absolutely sure they will be unable to accept Nagisa coming back to life, if ever it happens, no matter how well done/justified/acceptable it may be made.
If I were to base that on what we have now, I'd find it more plausible than Ayu suddenly regaining consciousness 5 minutes before the end of the last episode of Kanon.
Nukerjsr
2009-03-08, 02:08
Because they're better than that. If you try to please everyone, all it leads to is compromise.
Not going to lie that it would be whoring, but how is leading to a compromise a bad thing?
I also do not comprehend why some people are so absolutely sure they will be unable to accept Nagisa coming back to life, if ever it happens, no matter how well done/justified/acceptable it may be made.
If I were to base that on what we have now, I'd find it more plausible than Ayu suddenly regaining consciousness 5 minutes before the end of the last episode of Kanon.
I don't see why they would want it either, but I think it's one of those things that would make it over-the-top. Since everything that is happening in believable to somewhat of an extent.
Myself, however, do believe it is a just ending due to the attachment that many viewers have for Tomoya. He's been through enough, we really don't want someone to exist just for "The Town" to destroy him physically and mentally. Especially because he doesn't deserve it and neither do Nagisa or Ushio.
Kaisos Erranon
2009-03-08, 02:29
If we get an instant revival of Nagisa and Ushio, everyone lives happily ever after, and it turns out the show wasted the audience's emotions for 5 episodes, then rage. Things will be broken, children will be screaming.
I also will not accept Nagisa's revival; if that happens, I'll be furious. I doubt that will happen, but with Key, I just don't freaking know anymore.
See, just like I said.
So like I just caught up with everything. One big question: WTF HAPPENED TO MY CLANNAD? This is like an endless spiral down into misery. OMG, man this is wrong, anything and everything is damn depressing. Did the writer like go through some depressing phase of his/her life while writing this? There's like some big curse or something around Tomoya. Child dies before parents, then grandchild dies before grandchild. dude come on, this is absolutely wrong. Nagi's parent aren't even like 40 yet, maybe barely even 30. What's with this horrible circle of events? Now Tomoya is going to outlive his own child as well. Man this series better end good......BETTER!!!
All Key games are like this. All of them. It just takes Clannad quite a while to GET there.
Nagisa's parents are over 40 now, by the way.
Sorrow-K
2009-03-08, 02:42
Not going to lie that it would be whoring, but how is leading to a compromise a bad thing?
Well, if we look at Clannad's case, for something like that to work, they'd have to change the story, possibly cut some things out from Nagisa's arc, dilute messages, drama, Tomoya's character development, etc, etc. In general, if you're trying too hard to make an ending that pleases everyone, then you start being overly careful about what your ending says, and whose toes you might be stepping. Powerful messages rock the boat by their very nature. It's better to say something which resonates strongly with a fraction of your audience, than say something which tries to please everyone but is quickly forgotten afterwards, IMO.
Sure, that trade-off doesn't always exist, but in most cases it does. Compromise isn't always a bad thing, but most of the time it is. The most powerful stories don't usually compromise on many things.
I guess I need an example. School Rumble is an anime that was filled with compromise, IMO, and it's ending was utterly forgettable.
Nukerjsr
2009-03-08, 03:21
Well, if we look at Clannad's case, for something like that to work, they'd have to change the story, possibly cut some things out from Nagisa's arc, dilute messages, drama, Tomoya's character development, etc, etc. In general, if you're trying too hard to make an ending that pleases everyone, then you start being overly careful about what your ending says, and whose toes you might be stepping. Powerful messages rock the boat by their very nature. It's better to say something which resonates strongly with a fraction of your audience, than say something which tries to please everyone but is quickly forgotten afterwards, IMO.
Sure, that trade-off doesn't always exist, but in most cases it does. Compromise isn't always a bad thing, but most of the time it is. The most powerful stories don't usually compromise on many things.
I guess I need an example. School Rumble is an anime that was filled with compromise, IMO, and it's ending was utterly forgettable.
Okay, I do get what you are saying now. I was a bit confused by the use of the word "compromise" in your sentence. You can't please everybody, but sometimes when you try to, the foundation can't support anymore weight and it crashes.
But if we are talking alternative universes and endings where stuff happens, would those kinds of problems still exist? Especially since there's the whole thing with ~Tomoyo After~. Would it just increase the shipping wars or arguments? Since the show has already established itself about hope, possibility and fate, it doesn't feel like it would harm the show.
Sorrow-K
2009-03-08, 03:36
Well, I guess the alternate universe is a get-around with that sort of thing, which is why it's a staple in visual novels. So I guess you can try and please everyone. But you can't really please everyone in a single linear story.
Tsuchirinhon
2009-03-08, 03:39
Why are people surprised that CLANNAD is a tear-jerking anime? The first season was like this, and so was the game.
In any case, this episode is another perfect 10. Tomoya is about as big of a man as you can get.
soulgoodguy
2009-03-08, 03:58
one things for sure i hope they dont do a "Suddenly Nagisa and Ushio Becomes alive?!" ending
or i will rage like i have never raged before
i would rather prefer a total reset ending if that is what i hope kyo ani is aiming
NoOneKnowS
2009-03-08, 04:58
Why are people surprised that CLANNAD is a tear-jerking anime? The first season was like this, and so was the game.
In any case, this episode is another perfect 10. Tomoya is about as big of a man as you can get.
I've been thinking about Simon (tengen toppa/very good show btw/better than any series airing now) this whole while. The man was tragic (up to the very end) but Tomoya certainly is more tragic than him haha.
I've been thinking about Simon (tengen toppa/very good show btw/better than any series airing now) this whole while. The man was tragic (up to the very end) but Tomoya certainly is more tragic than him haha.
I don't see how you can compare TTGL to Clannad AS, I mean apples and oranges? The moving point of TTGL is the struggle of spiral beings, humans, whereas the moving point of Clannad is the character interactions. TTGL was good, but it also had heavy amounts of fanservice/mecha porn/actions scenes that were all done very well which adds to imo its almost legendary status, but these two shows are like comparing a mule and a race horse, scratch that mules can't breed so that would be a crippling negative. Ok thats like comparing a Truck and a sports car, both are cars, but they serve different purposes, their targeted at different demographics, you happen to fall into the demographics of both, but that still doesn't mean you can compare them on a critical level, because their intended function is different.
NoOneKnowS
2009-03-08, 05:28
I don't see how you can compare TTGL to Clannad AS, I mean apples and oranges? The moving point of TTGL is the struggle of spiral beings, humans, whereas the moving point of Clannad is the character interactions. TTGL was good, but it also had heavy amounts of fanservice/mecha porn/actions scenes that were all done very well which adds to imo its almost legendary status, but these two shows are like comparing a mule and a race horse, scratch that mules can't breed so that would be a crippling negative. Ok thats like comparing a Truck and a sports car, both are cars, but they serve different purposes, their targeted at different demographics, you happen to fall into the demographics of both, but that still doesn't mean you can compare them on a critical level, because their intended function is different.
I wasn't comparing the 2 series. I was comparing the 2 main leads. Read my post.
I wasn't comparing the 2 series. I was comparing the 2 main leads. Read my post.
They are no way similar, their struggles are not similar, all they have in common is loss of loved ones. If they were similar in nature I would wholeheartedly agree but their not. Simon is an idealist, where as Tomoya sometimes comes off as a brute. Just because they have lost loved ones doesn't make them similar in other respects. Plus Tomoya has recieved so much more character development its not even funny. The reason why people are so hurt at Tomoya's pain is because well he's like a friend who just can't catch a break, he's changed with us as we have watched. I dunno I think Kyoani could have done a better job with the journey's theme to help quell the spastic ZOMG how could you kill Ushio stuff, but then again there will always be extreme responses.
Oi, it was stated by a few people earlier than ep 22 will be the last episode, so then why is this thing registered as a 24 ep. series? 2 ova's or something? Something like the last season......
dgreater1
2009-03-08, 05:40
They are no way similar, their struggles are not similar, all they have in common is loss of loved ones. If they were similar in nature I would wholeheartedly agree but their not. Simon is an idealist, where as Tomoya sometimes comes off as a brute. Just because they have lost loved ones doesn't make them similar in other respects. Plus Tomoya has recieved so much more character development its not even funny. The reason why people are so hurt at Tomoya's pain is because well he's like a friend who just can't catch a break, he's changed with us as we have watched. I dunno I think Kyoani could have done a better job with the journey's theme to help quell the spastic ZOMG how could you kill Ushio stuff, but then again there will always be extreme responses.
I don't really think he's comparing the two on that kind of level :heh:
He's only comparing their tragic level. Who had the most painful blow (experience) in their life. :heh:
NoOneKnowS
2009-03-08, 05:45
They are no way similar, their struggles are not similar, all they have in common is loss of loved ones. If they were similar in nature I would wholeheartedly agree but their not. Simon is an idealist, where as Tomoya sometimes comes off as a brute. Just because they have lost loved ones doesn't make them similar in other respects. Plus Tomoya has recieved so much more character development its not even funny. The reason why people are so hurt at Tomoya's pain is because well he's like a friend who just can't catch a break, he's changed with us as we have watched. I dunno I think Kyoani could have done a better job with the journey's theme to help quell the spastic ZOMG how could you kill Ushio stuff, but then again there will always be extreme responses.
Ok. lets make things clear, first, although as you said both have lost loved ones. And I agree w that wholeheartedly. But on how their loved ones died? Man, Nagisa died cause of some mysterious decease for all we know it cause by the plothax wonderland w/ robot and those sparkling thingies, just like uishio. (KyoAni/Key whatever better need some explaining to do or else it'll be just some lame plothole or something). At least in simon's case. His loved ones died w/ reasons that contributed to his chara development. Unlike Tomoya who had his love ones died then got some chara dev. after such pain. I do agree I feel for Tomoya too. The guy must be one of the most unluckiest main chara ever. :heh:
I was ready to label the series my favorite of all time after ep 18, and up until this episode too, but this latest episode seems to have taken the magic out(A little bit, the last few episodes have been so awesome though, I have to give them A LOT of credit for that.).
Well I knew what was coming. Before seeing the episode I thought the plot-twist was a bit too outrageous to swallow, especially since they just pulled the same card out with Nagisa. The twist seems a bit redundant. But, I always keep an open mind with Kyoani seeing as they always impress the hell out of me when I'm not expecting it(My heart strings have been pulled so much already, can you really pull them again and make it believable?).
After seeing the episode, I thought, well, I'm not really impressed. I wasn't moved or emotional like I was during episode 18(Or 19 for that matter), but neither was I really disappointed(So I gave it an average). I don't think they really tried very hard to make this episode a tear jerker, which if they had succeeded in making me cry again, I would have said I was impressed. But, they would have risked making the story seem a bit farcical if they did try to... hmmm, "assign more emotional impact to the scene".
Instead of trying to embellish the scene and make it grandiose, I thought they just took the anti-climatic route, sort of like the same route they took after Nagisa's scene. Where maybe we were expecting to see Tomoya go through some hard-core depression and really get our tear ducts wringed out(Instead they skipped straight ahead to Ushio). They seem to make these easily foreseeable, really depressing scenes quick and painless(foreseeable and depressing for me). I guess it's a smart move, I would probably like to see them drawn out more though, if they could do them well... Anyway, I'm hoping next week they'll really knock the final episode out of the ballpark, like they did earlier with ep 18 when I was least expecting it...
Edit: After sleeping on it, I thought that last seen was very melodramatic now that I think about it. With that last, slow, walk and the words said about wanting to go on a trip... definitely a tear jerking scene. It reminded me of Air with that last walk. But, it didn't feel built up or anything like that, it wasn't the climax like it was with Air. So it wasn't as heavy on the emotional side. I think that's not necessarily a bad thing. I thought KyoAni did a good job of making that last death scene feel not too forced.
DEATH IS NOT FAIR. Not everybody dies to save the world, many people die in obscure ways that don't pay justice to their lives it happens, as a matter of fact it happens a lot. Oh well when episode 22 hits, I'll have more to say but as of now saying anymore would probably considered spoilers. Just want to reiterate, death is not fair, not everybody gets a proper death, a death that brings meaning to their life, these things naturally clash at the very notion.
Tragedy has no match for the likes of shakespeare, I mean this man is worse than key when it come to tragedy, just think hamlet.
MeoTwister5
2009-03-08, 06:07
Not going to lie that it would be whoring, but how is leading to a compromise a bad thing?
I don't see why they would want it either, but I think it's one of those things that would make it over-the-top. Since everything that is happening in believable to somewhat of an extent.
Myself, however, do believe it is a just ending due to the attachment that many viewers have for Tomoya. He's been through enough, we really don't want someone to exist just for "The Town" to destroy him physically and mentally. Especially because he doesn't deserve it and neither do Nagisa or Ushio.
My point being people are hell bent on hating the possibility that either of them could live again, regardless of the circumstance, miracles and whatnot that the internal reality of the series dictates. Given again the internal reality of the show where other strange things have happened, is it THAT difficult to accept another strange miracle may happen, if such a miracle is warranted? Viewers are saying that they'll hate hate hate any possible return of either girls when we clearly have the following:
1. Considering the more miraculous and otherworldly aspect of the show, strange miracles CAN, indeed, HAPPEN.
2. The series has yet to even justify this event, should it go down that road. The final episode is still a few days away.
Think about it. The internal reality of the series suggests that Fuuko could have been alive to some strange degree in season 1 and people accepted it, even if there wasn't any real rational allowing it back then. You pretty much had to force suspensiom of disbelief at moments, yet people who have continued to watch pretty much accepted whatever form or reason Fuuko had during the very first Clannad arc.
To me, no offense meant to anyone, people are only raging against any possible reincarnation/time loop/whatever event out of not enough understanding of the anime's internal reality. You are not supposed to insert your own beliefs of reality into the series, the series has it's own. If you wish to reject anything, reject that, not the event.
NoOneKnowS
2009-03-08, 06:18
The problem I see is that Ushio died (literally) in the reality of Clannad world. Now if ever that wonderland comes into picture reviving Ushio from the dead, along w/ Nagisa and Fuuko. Then we have some more major problem. Since the fantasy aspects of this show wasn't even revealed that much. And I won't accept it as something that can revive the DEAD. I mean, C'mon, well, will that kid that has a crush to Tomoyo be revived too? That's just the same as saying that "nothing actually happened, we just made them die for the sake of chara develpment and nothing else/now here's the ending....everyone lives...wohooo".
Fantasy not revealed? just go read page 10 of the thread. My discussion with Rouga. You choose not beleive there is no fantasy but infact the show is chock full of it.
NoOneKnowS
2009-03-08, 06:27
Fantasy not revealed? just go read page 10 of the thread. My discussion with Rouga. You choose not beleive there is no fantasy but infact the show is chock full of it.
Uhm...No, I do know that this is a fanstay series, just it has been downplayed too much that this "fantasy" thing being able to revive the dead or something is just to lulz. Make tomoya be in pain and be able to move on. That'd be a fitting ending. Its not like Clannad where we have foxes turning into humans or something. 2 whole series all I get about the fantasy aspects of the show is A.) the magical world w/ Ushio and the stupid robot and B.) Fuuko. Other than that? Nadda.
uhm dead boy turns a cat into a human form? down played much? Any way I'm done with this topic
I was ready to label the series my favorite of all time after ep 18, and up until this episode too, but this latest episode seems to have taken the magic out(A little bit, the last few episodes have been so awesome though, I have to give them A LOT of credit for that.).
Well I knew what was coming. Before seeing the episode I thought the plot-twist was a bit too outrageous to swallow, especially since they just pulled the same card out with Nagisa. The twist seems a bit redundant. But, I always keep an open mind with Kyoani seeing as they always impress the hell out of me when I'm not expecting it(My heart strings have been pulled so much already, can you really pull them again and make it believable?).
After seeing the episode, I thought, well, I'm not really impressed. I wasn't moved or emotional like I was during episode 18(Or 19 for that matter), but neither was I really disappointed(So I gave it an average). I don't think they really tried very hard to make this episode a tear jerker, which if they had succeeded in making me cry again, I would have said I was impressed. But, they would have risked making the story seem a bit farcical if they did try to... hmmm, "assign more emotional impact to the scene".
Instead of trying to embellish the scene and make it grandiose, I thought they just took the anti-climatic route, sort of like the same route they took after Nagisa's scene. Where maybe we were expecting to see Tomoya go through some hard-core depression and really get our tear ducts wringed out(Instead they skipped straight ahead to Ushio). They seem to make these easily foreseeable, really depressing scenes quick and painless(foreseeable and depressing for me). I guess it's a smart move, I would probably like to see them drawn out more though, if they could do them well... Anyway, I'm hoping next week they'll really knock the final episode out of the ballpark, like they did earlier with ep 18 when I was least expecting it...
I would suggest this read on death scenes
http://limyaael.livejournal.com/410473.html
tl:dr: Not every death scenes are submitted to the lingering agony and famous last words rules. In the frame of a fiction, too much of it will wear it thin and cheapen death and its significance as much.
To me, no offense meant to anyone, people are only raging against any possible reincarnation/time loop/whatever event out of not enough understanding of the anime's internal reality. You are not supposed to insert your own beliefs of reality into the series, the series has it's own. If you wish to reject anything, reject that, not the event.
You could almost say that Clannad is set in a reality similar to our own but not. Sure there are similarities between the two realities, however the rules that govern our reality cannot, and should not be applied to the Clannad reality. Since this is the case, anything could happen next week.
This is why I like anime. It is so easy to suspend belief and be carried away by the stories and not have to worry about what is possible or not. In a similar way to how the Infinite Improbability Drive in the Heart of Gold could be anywhere and everywhere at once, in anime, anything could happen.
MeoTwister5
2009-03-08, 06:46
The problem I see is that Ushio died (literally) in the reality of Clannad world. Now if ever that wonderland comes into picture reviving Ushio from the dead, along w/ Nagisa and Fuuko. Then we have some more major problem. Since the fantasy aspects of this show wasn't even revealed that much. And I won't accept it as something that can revive the DEAD. I mean, C'mon, well, will that kid that has a crush to Tomoyo be revived too? That's just the same as saying that "nothing actually happened, we just made them die for the sake of chara develpment and nothing else/now here's the ending....everyone lives...wohooo".
You obviously aren't watching the same Illusionary world parallelisms all of us are. I suggest you watch it again, or go take a look at Spoilers thread.
You could almost say that Clannad is set in a reality similar to our own but not. Sure there are similarities between the two realities, however the rules that govern our reality cannot, and should not be applied to the Clannad reality. Since this is the case, anything could happen next week.
This is why I like anime. It is so easy to suspend belief and be carried away by the stories and not have to worry about what is possible or not. In a similar way to how the Infinite Improbability Drive in the Heart of Gold could be anywhere and everywhere at once, in anime, anything could happen.
My point EXACTLY. It's so easy for people to hate something plausible that has yet to even occur yet shojuld it even occur, out of some blind dislike.
Ummm... people? Why are we discussing future episodes and expectations in this thread if I may ask? o_o
People are spoiled enough as it is, let's leave it at that. Whether people like or don't like the next episode is up to KEY and KyoAni, not us
Remember, no matter the outcome, you had those emotions. They were real. So even if one gets what one considers a worst case situation, what you got out of the last severa episodes will stay with you no matter the ending.
How true.
Denying these past feelings would be the same as Tomoya denied all the time he shared with Nagisa, despite the pain.
If only we'd never met...
We should have taken different paths.
Then this sadness would have never existed.
I wonder if the Tomoya as he is now, realized this, kana, kana?
One thing I think I'm noticing is that some people have it in there mind this is a story about hardship and moving on, or that this is a harem show. It is not exactly.
The theme of Clannad is Family. Tomoya has been learning what it is like to be in a working family and what that means. Now he's back at the bottom of the hill where it all started (metaphysically at least). Where this goes? The theme is Family.
Time for happiness is so damn short....Next ep will be'' grand finale''.
You could almost say that Clannad is set in a reality similar to our own but not. Sure there are similarities between the two realities, however the rules that govern our reality cannot, and should not be applied to the Clannad reality. Since this is the case, anything could happen next week.
This is why I like anime. It is so easy to suspend belief and be carried away by the stories and not have to worry about what is possible or not. In a similar way to how the Infinite Improbability Drive in the Heart of Gold could be anywhere and everywhere at once, in anime, anything could happen.
You answered the complaint in the first paragraph. There are indeed similarities.
But where I am coming from, and where most people with a problem with an ending like that(if there is one) are coming from is that Clannad hasnt established that it has that kind of reality, from what we've seen for 43 episodes, while it doesnt focus on real things, it does focus on things we can relate too. Not many people can relate to instantly having their wishes fulfilled.
And to be perfectly honest with the poster above, Im pretty sre that the series is about both. Hardships, and how we use family bonds to overcome them. I say both because as Nagisa said:
"Happy things, sad things, nothing stays the same forever. Even so, can you continue liking this place?"
What I want to see is exactly how Tomoya continues to like this place hes in despite the happy and sad things, and holw his family and friends support him. Thats what attracted me to the show in any event.
No, hardship is not a theme of this anime, Clannad means family in irish, the entire show is about family. Hardships that occur to families, and how FAMILIES get over those hardships is the point of the show, not the hardships themselves. Hardships for the characters help accentuate the theme of family, and how Tomoya comes to grasp his idea of what family is. I mean just because you don't see the importance of family and you can't see it in the 43 episodes doesn't mean its not there.
It's that part of the year again? :p
The name is kind of a homage to the Irish band (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clannad) of the same name. CLANNAD for that band actually means Clann as Dobhar, which would translate as the family of dhore. In CLANNAD the game case, the name is supposed to stand for Clann as dango, a family of dangos, dango daikazoku :)
But its like, your taking out the little details, but I essentially meant the same thing, he has a hardship, and Im wondering how his family helps him recover.
Whats your definition of family though? I dont limit it to Nagisa and Ushio. You've got Sanae (hope im spelling it right), Akio, tomoya's father, his grandmother, and all his friends meet my personal definition of family. Basically what im saying is that his family isnt limited to two people. The death's of family members happen, and when they do, you need other family members to help overcome them.
Though, I dont recall ever saying that families dont exist in clannad or that is was unimportant in anyway in my posts. Infact, everytime ive defined this series, Ive brought family up.
Guardian Enzo
2009-03-08, 13:43
Watching Clannad and reading all this really makes me miss Kanon terribly. There's just enough of the magic to make you appreciate what's missing. Uguu.
Why? Game veterans should bend over and stop bothering to defend Clannad while people are looking at Kanon through pink-tinted glasses; then judge Clannad through Kanon instead of judging Clannad on its own merits?
Scary Zet
2009-03-08, 14:21
Why? Game veterans should bend over and stop bothering to defend Clannad while people are looking at Kanon through pink-tinted glasses; then judge Clannad through Kanon instead of judging Clannad on its own merits?
I haven't understood the meaning of your post completely, sorry.
What, can't hospitals test for Mystery Anime Illness Syndrome?
I was thinking of one word. "GOAL".
Tomoya must have been really really bad in a past life to have the world dump on his head quite so much. Unless of course both series happened all in his head while he was deciding whether or not to talk to that strange girl who said 'Anpan'... I should hate that.
I haven't understood the meaning of your post completely, sorry.
Apparently, the game veterans should stop defending the story. And Clannad is judged, not on its own merits, but in comparison of Kanon. The mentioned title, Kanon, is mostly viewed through the nostalgia filter and used as a measure of how better or worse Clannad is.
I dare the same people to tell me when was the last time they watched Kanon 2006. Myself, I have watched it during the period when there were no After Story episode. And I have taken off these nostalgia googles. So I can tell where Kanon did well, and did not do so well (should I dare to mention how the romance was brought up and how things magically got resolved with a magic wand named "miracles"?).
IRJustman
2009-03-08, 14:55
Ummm... people? Why are we discussing future episodes and expectations in this thread if I may ask? o_o
People are spoiled enough as it is, let's leave it at that. Whether people like or don't like the next episode is up to KEY and KyoAni, not us
I will echo the sentiment here as I have before, albeit this time, a bit more bluntly.
Knock off the speculation. Now.
There are threads expressly for this purpose. USE them.
--Ian.
Guardian Enzo
2009-03-08, 15:58
There's no rose-colored glasses nostalgia at play for me - I've watched Kanon again recently and it's just better, plain and simple. Emotionally speaking, it's the difference between a velvet glove and an iron fist.
That said, it's true that it's not totally fair to judge Clannad in comparison - unavoidable perhaps, but not fair. It is it's own story and it does deserve to be judged on its own merits.
Tomoya must have been really really bad in a past life to have the world dump on his head quite so much. Unless of course both series happened all in his head while he was deciding whether or not to talk to that strange girl who said 'Anpan'... I should hate that.
I agree, if it would end like that I'd really want all those hours back.
But even though I knew where this episode was going I felt emotionally destroyed.
I'm beginning to hate this series since it's pushing thing too far, beauty should prevail, not be destroyed.
Tomoya must have been really really bad in a past life to have the world dump on his head quite so much. Unless of course both series happened all in his head while he was deciding whether or not to talk to that strange girl who said 'Anpan'... I should hate that.
That would be one HUGEEEEEEEEE twist. I wasn't even thinking of that. We'll see if this comes true or not next week....
There's no rose-colored glasses nostalgia at play for me - I've watched Kanon again recently and it's just better, plain and simple. Emotionally speaking, it's the difference between a velvet glove and an iron fist.
This is where my opinion differs. I felt that at times, it was drawn out more than necessary, the example in mind being the Makoto arc. And whatever sympathy I had for the character (very little) was gone in that "aaaauuuu" non-stop episode. It does not mean that Clannad does not have weaker parts. I can name the Misae arc as one of them.
However, so far, I have loved the journey in Clannad.
One reason would be Tomoya who felt as "real" as a character in his genre can get. That's something that no comparison with Kanon or Air can take away from Clannad.
Just watched the episode. Damn, for a character that appeared only few episodes ago, it sure had me bawling at her death. Still trying to sort out my feelings. Geez, when did I get attached to her so quickly? (actually, I do know that answer but still). Anyhow, the ending theme again made me feel like, I am a fool for being sad or something, seriously. It like betrayed my feeling right then. Of course, I skipped the ending at the first beat, but still, I had to hear some of it.
So, already, we are at the last normal episode. Jeez, it feels like it was last month when the first episode of After story started. I do hope for a fantasitic ending, though.
This is where my opinion differs. I felt that at times, it was drawn out more than necessary, the example in mind being the Makoto arc. And whatever sympathy I had for the character (very little) was gone in that "aaaauuuu" non-stop episode. It does not mean that Clannad does not have weaker parts. I can name the Misae arc as one of them.
However, so far, I have loved the journey in Clannad.
One reason would be Tomoya who felt as "real" as a character in his genre can get. That's something that no comparison with Kanon or Air can take away from Clannad.
What he said, and actually Kyou and Ushio seemed very real too. Nagisa was sweet and all, but I couldnt name a girl like her, i can thilnk of many people like those two however. Also, Akio was very good.
Ive seen Air, but i sseem to be fortunate that I havent seen the Kanon series yet so I dont feel inclined to use it as a measuring stick.
Justin Kim
2009-03-08, 18:54
There are still 2 more episodes after the last episode, so please take that into account. They are speculated to be epilogues or another side of the story in further detail.
DragoZERO
2009-03-08, 21:11
Just watched the episode. Damn, for a character that appeared only few episodes ago, it sure had me bawling at her death. Still trying to sort out my feelings. Geez, when did I get attached to her so quickly? (actually, I do know that answer but still). Anyhow, the ending theme again made me feel like, I am a fool for being sad or something, seriously. It like betrayed my feeling right then. Of course, I skipped the ending at the first beat, but still, I had to hear some of it.
So, already, we are at the last normal episode. Jeez, it feels like it was last month when the first episode of After story started. I do hope for a fantasitic ending, though.
Ushio was adorable and they gave you plenty of chances to become connected to the character too. You can't help but not feel sad.
There are still 2 more episodes after the last episode, so please take that into account. They are speculated to be epilogues or another side of the story in further detail.
I heard there is only one and that its a slice of life HS episode.
Aoie_Emesai
2009-03-08, 21:46
There are still 2 more episodes after the last episode, so please take that into account. They are speculated to be epilogues or another side of the story in further detail.
It's probably not an epilogue, but rather like alternative paths. I hope for an epilogue ^^
I'm sadden at this episode >.<
I reported it 40 minutes ago butI have noticed this hour frame is the time when the mainly European based moderator team is still eating their breakfast and the ones on this side of the world are already sleeping :(
What i do can tell you is that the ending is not set in stone, and that even the game players are wondering how it will actually finish, given that this part in the game was kind of fuzzy and open ended, so it can actually go either way.
Leo_Otaku
2009-03-08, 23:46
omg >.> people need to tone down spoilers.
I would just like to give some advice to non game players. To get a better understanding
*watch the scenes of the "Illusionary World" with the girl and the robot over again. Since some of the metaphors will be re-freshed. http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=lunarnomiko14&view=videosTHIS PERSON on you tube has all the videos ^-^"
As for some events notbeingexplained I guess it is ust screaming out to us who noticed. But...
*Yukine's dialouge. If you really want to go further then...
*Kotomi's explanation could work too.
*Akio's talk to Tomoya of how Nagisa was saved.
Or just watch from the beginning XD
Reckoner
2009-03-09, 00:13
omg >.> people need to tone down spoilers.
I would just like to give some advice to non game players. To get a better understanding
*watch the scenes of the "Illusionary World" with the girl and the robot over again. Since some of the metaphors will be re-freshed. http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=lunarnomiko14&view=videosTHIS PERSON on you tube has all the videos ^-^"
As for some events notbeingexplained I guess it is ust screaming out to us who noticed. But...
*Yukine's dialouge. If you really want to go further then...
*Kotomi's explanation could work too.
*Akio's talk to Tomoya of how Nagisa was saved.
Or just watch from the beginning XD
Honestly, the magic in these kinds of shows rarely ever makes sense or is logical (In the sense that the magic has its own rules that it must follow), so I think it is just better for people to just see it and not ponder too much about the details of these miracles. Well I do not even know if there is a miracle, just assuming this because it's Key +KyoAni... Who knows, maybe they will break their repetitive circle for once and have a sad ending.
germanturkey
2009-03-09, 00:18
for some reason, this ep didn't get me nearly as badly as 18 and 19. i was saddened, but tears didn't come. maybe i've been desensitized by this show..
speculation. the stuffing in those Dango pillows are carcinogenic. it explains EVERYTHING.
next ep probably would be like "life if i hadn't met her" then at the end they'll do the ball of light for Tomoya and everything will be good.
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