Clannad ~After Story~ - Episode 22 Discussion / Poll [END]

[Klashikari]

Welcome to the discussion thread for Clannad ~After Story~ , Episode 22.

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Q: End at episode 22?! Isn't Clannad ~AS~ supposed to be a 24 episode series !?
A: It has been announced that Episode 23 will be an extra episode, which its timeframe will span on a year before Nagisa and Tomoya met each other at school. There is no clear information if there will be another extra episode (be it DVD extra or not).

[Game8910]

woot finally!!!

was there announcement this episode? O_O

[Proto]

Well, the ending is here and like all good things they must be brought for a close. That said, while this ending isn't an epic OMG WTF LOL type of climax, it lets the show reach its natural conclusion, it brings things to a neat and conclusive point, so it does its work as an epilogue sort of episode were you can bid farewell to the characters.

Other than that:

Fuuko ninja'ed the ending! :p

[kyomagi]

Well, the ending is here and like all good things they must be brought for a close. That said, while this ending isn't an epic OMG WTF LOL type of climax, it lets the show reach its natural conclusion, it brings things to a neat and conclusive point, so it does its work as an epilogue sort of episode were you can bid farewell to the characters.

Other than that:

Fuuko ninja'ed the ending! :p

so did they pull off the game ending?

[Sheba]

Not even a T-51b can shield me from the incoming fallout of the collective rageblast that will result from the ending.

[Zenemis]

What sorta epic ending can you have for it though, there's only one natural conclusion, as you said.

EDIT: Why would there be a "rageblast"? It's just a normal ending, don't bother trying to start anything.

[Game8910]

hmmm well I already knew what the ending was from the VN but

what is this nonsense of Fuuko ninja'd the ending? O_o

[Zenemis]

She ninja'd the ending. She appeared, unexpectedly.

[Klashikari]

It is basically the "extra" epilogue you get in the game, with some Fuuko's antics. then afterwards, she bumps on a very unexpected character.

[Game8910]

Im fine with it unless she interrupted a great scene

[Ithekro]

"Fuuko's antics"

Just as planned.

[Klashikari]

No she doesn't, she has her own scene, way after everyone does. Just wait and watch instead of fidgeting about needless worry.

[Zenemis]

Im fine with it unless she interrupted a great scene

Nah it didn't interrupt anything, it's more like a bonus ending.

[Game8910]

im fine with that :D

She really annoyed me back in season 1 for her ninja appearances though, made me hate her and AS managed to patch things up :P

[Zenemis]

Fuuko passed away when I played through the VN. There's an option where you get to drive a car with her on the run...

No that's a bit harsh, but I feel the same way, she did get rather annoying in CLANNAD, and more bearable in AS. Probably because she wasn't there for 90% of it.

[Game8910]

So im guessing they are saving their usual announcement of their next project for next episode huh?

I wanna hear THAT song play on the anime already XD

[Klashikari]

Please save such kind of discussion in the respective CHARACTER discussion thread. Thanks.

[Zenemis]

What did people think of the "real-life capture" light scene?

[Vegard Aune]

...Is there a rating higher than 10 on this poll? Because this was absolutely, insanely, ridicculously, and unexpectedly perfect. They did EXACTLY what I expected them to do, while also putting every single one of my concerns that the ending might be cheezy or anticlimactic to rest. It was just... flawless. While I am sad to see my favourite anime come to and end, I couldn't have asked for a better way to end it.

[Meatrose]

...Is there a rating higher than 10 on this poll? Because this was absolutely, insanely, ridicculously, and unexpectedly perfect. They did EXACTLY what I expected them to do, while also putting every single one of my concerns that the ending might be cheezy or anticlimactic to rest. It was just... flawless. While I am sad to see my favourite anime come to and end, I couldn't have asked for a better way to end it.

Well, I've only seen the "11/10" rating option available once before (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=63088) on AS, so I think you'll have to settle for 10. ^^;

Can't wait to see the episode with my own eyes. I know (from the game) what's going to happen, but I'd like to see how they pull it off. What you just wrote made me even less patient. :heh:

[panzerfan]

(I watched this episode raw. Life's good when you can have your cake raw)

This ending arguably is stronger than the visual novel's ending. Kyoani actually filled the gap of 'what happened with everyone else' by including those brief clips featuring all the cast involved in the story. I think this end was fulfilling of what's expected for Kyoani given the material that it has to work with overall. I come out thinking that the cast of CLANNAD do not merely disappear, and that they will contineously impact each other in their lives, which is quite a good omen.

The hidden star of the show, the town itself, made such an impression during this episode should make it clear to the audience that CLANNAD fundamentally is about the people and the town that they live in. Everything do change with time, yet while yearning for new things, those closest to you should be old. I think it is this core message that makes the show transcend from any romance drama into something much more broad than most of the genre.

The bit about the world that has ended, the robot, the girl, Tomoya and Nagisa over the foot of that hill tied up without fail. There is too little time for one to soak in the sentimentality of having it all thrown together, and I think it will take more than one viewing for all of that to get digested. Nevertheless, it's nice to see Tomoya not regretting the choice of going down the path of life with Nagisa as the two reaffirm themselves for posterity.

I think CLANNAD has successfully argued its case that the true end is something that the audience actually want to see by the end, despite how one might feel regarding the relationship path chosen. I think that the scene with Tomoya, Nagisa and Ushio going on that train ride sums up the aspirations of even the audience regarding expected outcome fairly well.

The Fuko tsukkomi with Kouko is a faithful rendition of the postscript in the visual novels. It's a much needed cool-off from the apex of the entire after story arc and I am rather happy to see this final development over the Ibukis' interaction with one another.

(I perfer the Chinese Stealth suit as opposed to T-51B, but my sentiment about runaway from all the shitstorm remain the same)

[typhonsentra]

Wait, what? Really, this is it? People insisted it'd be another episode or two since they took fewer breaks this season.

[Proto]

There will be another episode or two, but this marks the end of the story proper. The other episodes will include extra stories, similar to what happened in the previous season.

[Kaisos Erranon]

Episode 24 is an OVA again, right?

Come on Kappei Kappei Kappei Kappei.

[Proto]

Let's leave the future episode speculation for another thread :)

[Kaisos Erranon]

Gah, if this episode is actually as well done as everyone's been saying, I'll need to actually watch all the AS episodes I've skipped until now.

[typhonsentra]

I'm going to hold off on rating this episode until the subs are out but wow... no surprises here.

[patient_senses]

And that concludes a truly beautiful series. I think that after everything, that is a well deserved ending. Now, I have to resist the urge to rewatch the whole series again. The widescreen version needs to come out quicker.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Well, I've only seen the "11/10" rating option available once before (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=63088) on AS, so I think you'll have to settle for 10. ^^;

Can't wait to see the episode with my own eyes. I know (from the game) what's going to happen, but I'd like to see how they pull it off. What you just wrote made me even less patient. :heh:

The poll ratings for this forum aren't to serious or restrained so I could see them getting away with an 11/10 for the bonus episodes for kicks. Then again I could not in a thousand years picture Klash allowing such a thing so..... :(

[SidVicious]

Perfect episode. :)

[Meatrose]

The poll ratings for this forum aren't to serious or restrained so I could see them getting away with an 11/10 for the bonus episodes for kicks. Then again I could not in a thousand years picture Klash allowing such a thing so..... :(

Well, the poll I linked to was a lot of fun back then, but I wouldn't want such an option here to be honest. People will vote for that option simply because it's an 11/10 option, instead of rating the episode seriously. :heh:

Anyhow, I'm way off topic. I'm trying to decide what to do - watch the raw right away or wait for subs in order to be able to fully understand all the lines? I do know what will happen, I just want to find out how they manage to pull it off in the anime. *scratches beard*

[serenade_beta]

(;＾ω＾) Hah? Wakarimasen, sensei!

Etto... So basically, the glowing orbs of light and something of something from that world with the robot Tomoya and Ushio does some mocus-pocus-magical thing and changes the past and allows Nagisa to live... huh...
Only one anime needs some spirit convention to revive the heroine, thanks.

Well, putting aside the Nagisa revival (hai? what? why?), it was a good last episode... I guess. Well, it still was emotionally moving...
The minus points were:
The last part with Fuuko spent waaay too long to get to its point, the first half of the episode left me in question marks, and Mei isn't a loli anymore (Uwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!).
And I'm left going "Ah, you existed?" to most of the sudden character epilogues, but let's not think about that.

...
Hm~m... They repeated the same trick to kill off a character and just reverts everything in one episode, huh. Key quality, I understand.

-Robot's death was grotesque?! *sweatdrop*

[Tempester]

Is there a Torch Ending? I'm preparing to wipe it out with my video editor.

[Vegard Aune]

Is there a Torch Ending? I'm preparing to wipe it out with my video editor.
There is, but thanks to the overall mood of the final scene, it actually fits quite nicely.

[Ithekro]

I approve of this episode. KyoAni is being fancy again (or is that still) with their choices of lighting and how much glow/blur they give a shot. It also opens things to interpretation on what happened based on just what effect is being used for any one scene.

The ending credits have changed again (more people added).

I approve of grownup/teenage Mei. Nice figure without being overdone.

No idea where Kotomi is, but it has to be someplace they drive on the right side of the road, but have the driver seat on the right side (or she imported her own car).

[laksmkk]

overall the mood was excellent. I cried the scene when tomoya and nagisa were holding each other. . other than I was satisfied how this wonderful series ended.

[aohige]

Who summoned Kamen Rider Odin to use his ability? :heh:

[Kaioshin Sama]

Something tells me this is going to be another one of those reaction a chaud episode for most, but for me.....well I'll save it for when the sub comes out, but this episode essentially confirmed a theory I've had about this series throughout it's course and let's just say that it's a mixed bag for me overall. I doubt I can say anything quite so glowing about a finale like this without having to account for what I feel is a thematic failing of Clannad and Jun Maeda stories in general.

[panzerfan]

Given your attitude about this, I would say that this amount of suspension of disbelief will fall flat on its face Kaioshin. The kind of personality portrayal in Legend of Galactic Heroes is an exception and I don't honestly expect it to ever be replicated in any way, so personally I am judging production based its intended results. In another word, take it easy~

[Sheba]

In another word, take it easy~

+1 & Why so serious?

Who summoned Kamen Rider Odin to use his ability? :heh:

I was thinking of Donnie Darko. Perform some deeds and see how it pays off in the end. Just not in a so bleak note.

[Seravy]

;_; what wonderful ending. if i could rate it more than 10 i would.

[bladeofdarkness]

i made it a point to watch this ep and 21 at the same time (didnt watch last week)
OMG
i was litteraly in tears during the entire first half of the episode
sayonara papa ;_;
i love this episode to almost no end
clannad has no officially replaced kanon as my #1 keyoani show
couldnt ask for a better ending to it

[Kaioshin Sama]

Given your attitude about this, I would say that this amount of suspension of disbelief will fall flat on its face Kaioshin. The kind of personality portrayal in Legend of Galactic Heroes is an exception and I don't honestly expect it to ever be replicated in any way, so personally I am judging production based its intended results. In another word, take it easy~

Oh but I am judging the production based on it's intended results (I'm not just another typical RAEGer after all), which is precisely why this ending causes problems with regard to the last 5-6 episodes before it. It's not what happened, but how it conflicts with some other things I thought were done quite well and throws yet more aspects of the show into confusion and chaos. In other words it's something I cannot ignore.

[Kaisos Erranon]

Like I said.

What works in a game does not necessarily work in an anime.

It was fine in the game because it felt like a reward for all the shit you had to go through to get to it.

Is it fine here, when you're not the player character? Not so much.

[bladeofdarkness]

ep 24 gave us a tomoyo route OVA
lets hope ep 24 this time gives as a tomoyo after OVA :heh:

[Proto]

Like I said.

What works in a game does not necessarily work in an anime.

It was fine in the game because it felt like a reward for all the shit you had to go through to get to it.

Is it fine here, when you're not the player character? Not so much.

Well, it depends on how much empathy you can feel for the characters. Certainly it is easier when the narrative is in first person, however it's not like empathy is impossible in 3rd person styled narratives.

[Yukinokesshou]

Excellent production, though having played the VN, everything was somewhat expected. As usual, Kyo Ani stuck very closely to Key's storyline. 10/10 for a fulfilling end to a fulfilling (though completely illogical) series.

I approve of this episode.

I approve of grownup/teenage Mei. Nice figure without being overdone.

I approve too. *Brings down stamp* APPROVED

No idea where Kotomi is, but it has to be someplace they drive on the right side of the road, but have the driver seat on the right side (or she imported her own car).

According to this Wikipedia article... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-hand_drive#Driver_seating_position ... "Although it drives on the right, North Korea has imported various used RHD vehicles from Japan, from tourist buses to Toyota Land Cruisers."

[Ushio]

It was a happy ending, but it still made me sad, because I know I'll never have a perfect family like that. OTL''

Ah, either way, good episode.

I wish the happy ending was just Tomoya's dream, and in reality, all three of them died. :v /morbid?

[Haruyasha]

It was a happy ending, but it still made me sad, because I know I'll never have a perfect family like that. OTL''

Ah, either way, good episode.

I wish the happy ending was just Tomoya's dream, and in reality, all three of them died. :v /morbid?

Lol, I was wishing that too.

Tomoya needs to stop cheating fate and face reality.. his family is dead.

[Sheba]

Yeah right, let's all have a Emile Zola miserable ending and get a near pornographic pleasure in others' misery. What was Maeda's intention again? A "naturalistic" study or a "magic realist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_realism)" story about a group of people in a town?

[panzerfan]

Well now now, it's not as if Maeda Jun didn't have a bit of that Tomino-esque kill'em all attitude demonstrated in Ideon. Originally his script goes only as far as episode 21... rather sadistic, and strangely enough Toei didn't opt that way in movie too.

But anyways, that's getting sidetracked from this episode.

This episode has two animation directors and I think you can see how much budget goes into making this sole episode. I hope KyoAni doesn't stretch itself too thin out of this one though.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Oh and I think this series already gets enough leeway from me as it is....most people don't even seem to bother to really critique it so I wouldn't mind being the first to point out some of the flaws in the overall storyline since it seems like nobody else ever bothers too. It's the finale so I might as well go all out now:



Clannad has always felt like it relies more on making it's viewers feel extreme emotion to earn it's praise then it does on following through specifically on what is supposed to be it's core theme of family. Episode 18 managed to shirk that a little and it was looking like the story was going to escape KeyAni's tendency to fall back on raw emotion as a crutch. It finally felt like it was realizing it's core theme at last and I was really getting into the story then. However then came episode 21, and finally episode 22.

This episode just took what has to by me greatest pet peeve with KeyAni stories and drove it home and it leaves me less than impressed with the story as a whole as back during episode 18-19 I had really felt it was capitalizing on the morality tale of Tomoya realizing that despite his loss he had an obligation to be a father to Ushio. Now I'm just left saying, what loss? What moral obligation? What point did any of the last few episodes really have as far as realizing the theme of family if they are just going to reneg it all for yet another reason to take people on an emotional roller coaster and make them cry.

That's really what Clannad feels like it comes down to in the end and while it works for most people I can't say it leaves me as impressed as if this show were to have ended at episode 19. Once you've experienced KeyAni stories main draw as crying anime a couple of times it really starts to lose it's impact, which is why I was desperately hoping they would shirk the games original story and instead focus on maximizing the potential of the family theme and Tomoya's bonding with Ushio as a way to get over the loss of Nagisa and to fully transition into the next step of his life. Not so....it's right back to tearjerker affairs for the audience and the characters again/

Seriously think about it, what point did any of the last few episodes have besides making people feel extreme emotion. What was the point of killing off Ushio last episode besides making Tomoya go through one last bit of agony? What was the point of making Tomoya going through all of those realizations that after great loss there is always new hope, only to kill Ushio, break him down yet again and then instantly lift him back up for yet another tearjerker, only this time because it's a happy ending where everyone gets to see there favourite characters one last time. Somewhere in all of this the theme of family gets really confused twisted and convoluted and all that's left is raw emotion. Meh I say....meh....

You know that song Mad World.....that's like the perfect way to describe how I feel about Clannad in the end....and in exactly the tone it's sung.

All around me are familiar faces
Worn out places, worn out faces
Bright and early for their daily races
Going nowhere, going nowhere
And their tears are filling up their glasses
No expression, no expression
Hide my head I want to drown my sorrow
No tomorrow, no tomorrow
Watching Clannad After Story makes me feel kind of funny
it makes me feel kind of sad, the dreams in which their dying are the best it's ever had.
I find it hard to tell you
'Cos I find it hard to take
When people run in circles
It's a very, very
Mad World

Hello teacher tell me what's my lesson........
Look right through me, look right through me..........

Sorry, but after episode 18 I really did expect a lot more from this series and had raised my expectations. I guess I expected too much. Hence why this episode gets a 6/10. In the end the series will probably end up with a 7/10. I enjoyed quite a few more parts of it then I thought it would, but in the end to me it's just another KeyAni story and to me that's not enough to push it to the next level I was really hoping for after episode 18.

I'm only left to imagine though what would happen if this type of ending happened for any show other then Clannad with it's seemingly impenetrable criticism shield. Holy crap would that show just get ripped to pieces. :heh:

[MeoTwister5]

Might as well download the raw. It would suck so much ass if Torch Hijacks Chiisana Tenohira, but maybe I can forgive them for that.

[Sheba]

I'm only left to imagine though what would happen if this type of ending happened for any show other then Clannad with it's seemingly impenetrable criticism shield. Holy crap would that show just get ripped to pieces. :heh:

Mai-HiMe, Nanoha A's, need I name more? Oh wait, there be no mechs, no huge war, no politics.

[Proto]

@KS: Well, that's because you are seeing the magic in the story as a contrived plot device rather than an integral part of the story. The last episodes before 21 weren't in vain, a what if scenario of sort. Under the logic of the story, it was necessary (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EarnYourHappyEnding) for Tomoya to understand what the message the town was giving him was. That's why the lighting orbs were an ever present element in the story back since Fuuko's arc. Rather than just a 'whoops, nothing to see here' kind of scenario, it was a 'tragedy in order to grow up' kind of path, were he was given a second opportunity exactly because he struggled through unhappiness, and yet emotionally succeeded and accepted it all.

Though, that's the problem with magical realism in general. It's, for its most part presented as a realist kind of show except for some not-so-obvious-at-fist-glance kind of aspects, which sometimes you are expected to weed out yourself in order to see the message the author is trying to convey. As such, one cannot directly apply a 'normal world + deus ex machina' logic to these scenarios.

PS: compound words FTW.

[MeoTwister5]

Since this is the final episodes and pretty much all spoilers are free territory, the Spoilers thread has all the information you need on the light orbs and the magical nature of the story. I'll be at the gym while it downloads, don't fail me now Chiisana Tenohira.

[Tempester]

Oh and I think this series already gets enough leeway from me as it is....most people don't even seem to bother to really critique it so I wouldn't mind being the first to point out some of the flaws in the overall storyline since it seems like nobody else ever bothers too. It's the finale so I might as well go all out now:



Clannad has always felt like it relies more on making it's viewers feel extreme emotion to earn it's praise then it does on following through specifically on what is supposed to be it's core theme of family. Episode 18 managed to shirk that a little and it was looking like the story was going to escape KeyAni's tendency to fall back on raw emotion as a crutch. It finally felt like it was realizing it's core theme at last and I was really getting into the story then. However then came episode 21, and finally episode 22.

This episode just took what has to by me greatest pet peeve with KeyAni stories and drove it home and it leaves me less than impressed with the story as a whole as back during episode 18-19 I had really felt it was capitalizing on the morality tale of Tomoya realizing that despite his loss he had an obligation to be a father to Ushio. Now I'm just left saying, what loss? What moral obligation? What point did any of the last few episodes really have as far as realizing the theme of family if they are just going to reneg it all for yet another reason to take people on an emotional roller coaster and make them cry.

That's really what Clannad feels like it comes down to in the end and while it works for most people I can't say it leaves me as impressed as if this show were to have ended at episode 19. Once you've experienced KeyAni stories main draw as crying anime a couple of times it really starts to lose it's impact, which is why I was desperately hoping they would shirk the games original story and instead focus on maximizing the potential of the family theme and Tomoya's bonding with Ushio as a way to get over the loss of Nagisa and to fully transition into the next step of his life. Not so....it's right back to tearjerker affairs for the audience and the characters again/

Seriously think about it, what point did any of the last few episodes have besides making people feel extreme emotion. What was the point of killing off Ushio last episode besides making Tomoya go through one last bit of agony? What was the point of making Tomoya going through all of those realizations that after great loss there is always new hope, only to kill Ushio, break him down yet again and then instantly lift him back up for yet another tearjerker, only this time because it's a happy ending where everyone gets to see there favourite characters one last time. Somewhere in all of this the theme of family gets really confused twisted and convoluted and all that's left is raw emotion. Meh I say....meh....

You know that song Mad World.....that's like the perfect way to describe how I feel about Clannad in the end....and in exactly the tone it's sung.

All around me are familiar faces
Worn out places, worn out faces
Bright and early for their daily races
Going nowhere, going nowhere
And their tears are filling up their glasses
No expression, no expression
Hide my head I want to drown my sorrow
No tomorrow, no tomorrow
Watching Clannad After Story makes me feel kind of funny
it makes me feel kind of sad, the dreams in which their dying are the best it's ever had.
I find it hard to tell you
'Cos I find it hard to take
When people run in circles
It's a very, very
Mad World

Hello teacher tell me what's my lesson........
Look right through me, look right through me..........

Sorry, but after episode 18 I really did expect a lot more from this series and had raised my expectations. I guess I expected too much. Hence why this episode gets a 6/10. In the end the series will probably end up with a 7/10. I enjoyed quite a few more parts of it then I thought it would, but in the end to me it's just another KeyAni story and to me that's not enough to push it to the next level I was really hoping for after episode 18.

I'm only left to imagine though what would happen if this type of ending happened for any show other then Clannad with it's seemingly impenetrable criticism shield. Holy crap would that show just get ripped to pieces. :heh:

You took the words out of my mind Kaioshin-sama. I absolutely love the True Ending, it feels justified because Tomoya gets what he deserves in the end after all that emotional pain. But in the end, I think it lost the message of the story. We can relate with Tomoya raising Ushio as a single father and the story ending that way, because people, including our spouses, pass away in real life and they don't come back. But how can we relate to traveling back in time to save your wife from death? True End is a beautiful ending, but at the same time it feels distant and we can't sympathize with the characters anymore.

[MeoTwister5]

@KS: Well, that's because you are seeing the magic in the story as a contrived plot device rather than an integral part of the story. The last episodes before 21 weren't in vain, a what if scenario of sort. Under the logic of the story, it was necessary (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EarnYourHappyEnding) for Tomoya to understand what the message the town was giving him was. That's why the lighting orbs were an ever present element in the story back since Fuuko's arc. Rather than just a 'whoops, nothing to see here' kind of scenario, it was a 'tragedy in order to grow up' kind of path, were he was given a second opportunity exactly because he struggled through unhappiness, and yet emotionally succeeded and accepted it all.

Though, that's the problem with magical realism in general. It's, for its most part presented as a realist kind of show except for some not-so-obvious-at-fist-glance kind of aspects, which sometimes you are expected to weed out yourself in order to see the message the author is trying to convey. As such, one cannot directly apply a 'normal world + deus ex machina' logic to these scenarios.

PS: compound words FTW.

And as some of us have talked about in the Spoilers thread, it all falls into whether the anime can try to link the "return to that day" into a believable and continuous narrative that the VN didn't actually need so much of. It has to be continuous here because you aren't in the 1st person POV like the VN, so I'll comment more on it later when I watch it.

[Proto]

Since this is the final episodes and pretty much all spoilers are free territory, the Spoilers thread has all the information you need on the light orbs and the magical nature of the story. I'll be at the gym while it downloads, don't fail me now Chiisana Tenohira.

Hmm... well there are still some spoilers left as for the stories in the light novel that might be animated, and the scenarios that didn't made it to the anime (eg: Kyou's, Sanae's, Akio's, half of Yoshino's and Kappei's, heck the guy didn't even get a cameo.) but for the most part the spoiler thread should be safe for everyone now.

True End is a beautiful ending, but at the same time it feels distant and we can't sympathize with the characters anymore.

Maybe you can't sympathize, but you definitely can empathize.

[Sidestep]

Well I am very pleased. Compared to the game, this felt much more fulfilling.

And wow, Mei, is that you!? :eek:

[Kaioshin Sama]

You took the words out of my mind Kaioshin-sama. I absolutely love the True Ending, it feels justified because Tomoya gets what he deserves in the end after all that emotional pain. But in the end, I think it lost the message of the story. We can relate with Tomoya raising Ushio as a single father and the story ending that way, because people, including our spouses, pass away in real life and they don't come back. But how can we relate to traveling back in time to save your wife from death? True End is a beautiful ending, but at the same time it feels distant and we can't sympathize with the characters anymore.

I'm glad you understand what I'm getting at. To put it more simply nonetheless, let's just say I vastly prefer the lesson, "There's always more to life and ways to grow and to metaphorically start over after you think there's no reason to go on living" to, "Whatever happens doesn't really matter because there's always a chance to literally start over".

Mai-HiMe, Nanoha A's, need I name more? Oh wait, there be no mechs, no huge war, no politics.

Yep, but in Mai-Hime's case I think it deserved it. In that story too the way the ending was used ended up contradicting the theme presented immediately before it which I also happened to feel was a much better lesson. All for the sake of a happy ending. The only difference between what happened with these endings is that Mai-Hime got rightfully criticized for it whereas Clannad is mostly getting away with it all scot free because I guess raw emotion is enough for most people. Meh....at least I know where I stand.

Oh and In Nanoha A's case it was more of a break even because if I recall there was no theme contradicted by what happened with the Volkenritter.

[Haruyasha]

Well now now, it's not as if Maeda Jun didn't have a bit of that Tomino-esque kill'em all attitude demonstrated in Ideon. Originally his script goes only as far as episode 21... rather sadistic, and strangely enough Toei didn't opt that way in movie too.

But anyways, that's getting sidetracked from this episode.

This episode has two animation directors and I think you can see how much budget goes into making this sole episode. I hope KyoAni doesn't stretch itself too thin out of this one though.

So in other words.. 21 would be considered the real end then?

I'm fine with that. :)

[Kaisos Erranon]

The only difference between what happened with these endings is that Mai-Hime got rightfully criticized for it whereas Clannad is mostly getting away with it all scot free because I guess raw emotion is enough for most people.

This is because Clannad has incredible production quality, wonderful characters, and is just damned good.

This is the sort of thing KyoAni can accomplish, and why people let things like this slide.


Maybe you'll like Little Busters better. From what I know about it, it's very... different... from most other Key stories.

[Kaioshin Sama]

This is the sort of thing KyoAni can accomplish, and why people let things like this slide.



I know.....believe me I know.

[Ithekro]

Chiisana Tenohira is entirely intact with only some narration/dialogue over it in the quieter places at the start. Also it is in the middle of the episode...Touch doesn't even come for almost six minutes after it ends.

[panzerfan]

Well Torch actually isn't a distraction in this episode. During episode 21 though, I can't help but to have some dismay over its inclusion...


In an anime with cat turning into shouta,I find adequate exploration on the messages of Clannad. This isn't the sentiment of everyone, but nobody should honestly expect the exact same reaction. Being in dismay over how there is lack of criticism is unfounded too since that's just merely trying to seek affirmation when it's not really needed over one's self-opinion.

To be honest, I think KyoAni actually did absorb lessons from AIR and Kanon in going about Clannad. There are far fewer ambugities remaining from the visual novel transplantation and that the support characters do have better balance in carrying the plot over. Mind you, this partly comes with Maeda Jun becoming more and more polished with his craft and providing better designs, but it does end up creating something more coherant than the two prior works.

[Dextro]

You guys are killing me... I'm eagerly awaiting this episode and I can't see it yet... Bahhhh, I want to see it!!!

[christgch]

I'll wait for subs..

[Myssa Rei]

I know.....believe me I know.


I guess it all boils down to what the viewer expected when they started with CLANNAD, and I'm not talking just about After Story. Are they coming into the slow expecting a slice-of-lifeish romance-comedy with some fantastic elements inter sped with the reality-based situations? Or are they coming into the show expecting a mystical story that also just happens to occur in a realistic setting? The game players like myself get it easy, as we know what we were getting into, but I won't be to surprised that the anime-only viewers might feel cheated.

And it is emotional cheating, in a heavy-handed and patently unsubtle manner, where you feel that the characters were jerked around for no more reason than to illicit a strong emotional response from the viewer. Then, all that emotional investment is... wasted, since the characters who've been pretty much beaten up emotionally, kicked in the gut, then rolled in the proverbial gutter since life has been OH SO BAD TO THEM, suddenly get a second chance.

Welcome to Jun Maeda's world.

I'll have to agree with Kaioshin this time, if only a little. CLANNAD was an enjoyable and wonderful ride, but due to the limitations inherent with source material used, fell short in unexpected ways. Episode 22 felt, really, like a denouement or anticlimax more than anything else, with the climax of the series hitting around episode 18-19.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'll grab my T-51b. I expect the usual suspects (I'm looking at you Chibi, I'm looking at you Typhonsentra) to drop WTF nukes anytime soon.

[danin8r44]

I can see why there is a feeling that episode 22 calmed the emotional building of the past few episodes, but I think that this is exactly what it was meant for. The previous episodes were all very heavy and started to instill this sense of "Oh man life must suck for him". I think 22 was meant as a way to look back and say well life can go wrong (as it did in the other episodes) or it can go right (22). 22 isn't meant to be a "climax" but another possible solution to a troubled life. If you look at 22 like that, it really doesn't steal any of the drama from the last few episodes, but gives a nice contrast to them and as a stand alone episode makes the heavy episodes heavier.

At least that's what I think.

and @Myssa Rei- Chinese stealth suit pwns T-51b so I'll just sneak around any WTF nukes.

[panzerfan]

looks like I found myself a like-minded player in danin8r44. Jingwei's shocksword + gauss + the stealth suit ftw.

Well, I guess that's a reason why Maeda wouldn't choose to initially pen the true end as in Episode 22. I think by episode 20, the audience can't help but to seriously question about the value of family and the people around you against that of your own. Nevertheless, reaching an actual conclusion does bring a degree of closure to the narrative, despite any objection on how the conclusion impacted the sentiment of relevance of the prior experience.

[cyberdemon]

i wanted to pull a Fuko on Ushio when i saw

Ushio wearing a Kimono

[Ithekro]

I'd rather pull a Rena.

For Nagisa as a MILF. I want to take her home.
Also somethings don't change. Sanae and Akio still run around the town because of her bread.

[khryoleoz]

Finally, an undoing of dramatic events that I really wanted to happen. As much as I've appreciated the emotional roller coaster (I'm a near complete wreck for goodness sakes) I've been put through since Ushio's birth, in the end what I would rather see is the preservation of a family, and where I can do anything towards ensuring that, I will go through hell and back and then some.

I love Clannad. Though I have a particular fondness (or fetish) for the tsundere character, give me Nagisa and Tomoya all the way! Woo hoo!

[Leo_Otaku]

The really, really adored the imagery that was used at the start of the episode. It was so amazing. The way the snow had her buried and her eyes watching from the snow gave a really good visual feel. I was very very happy they had kept my favorite line. The destruction of that world was specatular. I was exteremly un-doubtfluy happy when they used "Gensou Shojo" I really love this song, the feel and emotions the song and vocals create is outstanding.
Nagisa and Tomoya's movemnets were incredibly well done. I highly enjoyed watching that scene.
The ending song "A Tiny Palm" was so beautiful seeing the animated visuals exactly how I imagined. I was annoyed Kappei wasn't shown a big WTF and why didn't Sane and Akio get their stories? >.>
The part with Ibuki and Fuko could have been shorter and I really think the ending should have been A tiny palm just my choice, with Fuko and Ibuki after.
I was surprised they had Fuko see her and then see Ushio a nice change from the game.

As to people who saw the episdoe and are going wtf I would almost ALMOST agree with you expect for the fact that the Illusionary World creation is one the best things of the story. This created the outcome and was done in such a beautiful way if the Illusionary World didn't exist well then might as well not have any other stories and just give the focus on Nagisa Tomoya and call it slice of life drama. Sorry wrong genre and wrong company to be asking for such.
If you want to see something more realistic or whatever go see Tomoyo After

[Proto]

View Post
The only difference between what happened with these endings is that Mai-Hime got rightfully criticized for it whereas Clannad is mostly getting away with it all scot free because I guess raw emotion is enough for most people.

Oh c'mon, the fact that some of us are liking it doesn't mean that we are all a bunch of gut thinkers :p



I'll have to agree with Kaioshin this time, if only a little. CLANNAD was an enjoyable and wonderful ride, but due to the limitations inherent with source material used, fell short in unexpected ways. Episode 22 felt, really, like a denouement or anticlimax more than anything else, with the climax of the series hitting around episode 18-19.

Well, that's not the fault of the ending itself, but of people expecting it to be a climax at all. As you mentioned, the climax of the series was back at 18. To be frank, most people even without being spoiled and just with paying attention to the little details that were spread throughout the series knew where this all was going. As such, the ending was just intended as a logical conclusion, as a reward to the characters and the viewers, to the former for their struggles and their emotional growup, to the later for having been along the characters all this time, but definitely not as a 'BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
(...)
(...)
(...)
aAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
(...)
AAWW kind of episode. I wouldn't call it an anti climax though, since an anti climax, as a literally resource means that a difficult and seemingly difficult to resolve plot (the intended lead up to the climax) was just solved with something trivial, which is not the case. I hope I'm making myself clear.

[Change of Pace]

C-can someone please post a picture of teenage!Mei? Seriously, I'm gonna be eagerly awaiting the episode's conclusion just so I can see that if I don't get a spoiler shot of it before hand. ;_; It's hard enough already waiting for those subs.

[harukamae]

Still a bit puzzled on the light orbs and the other world, but perhaps a rewatching and a trip to the Spoilers Thread will help! :-)

All in all though, a fitting ending and a definite tearjerker, though I'm still left wondering over the significance of the "friend" Fuuko finds. I'm trying to figure out if there's an explained canon significance or just a "hey, that's cool! Ushio's the Illusionary World Girl" deal.

10/10 Now how'll I get my anime drama fix?

[Teletha]

I tried to be all reasonable and say there is more lesson to learn in keeping both Ushio and Nagisa dead because people don't come back, but I couldn't do it. Girly tears of happiness were shed when everything was turned back and you saw Nagisa lived. I don't care about the lesson. I just want my happy end.

C-can someone please post a picture of teenage!Mei? Seriously, I'm gonna be eagerly awaiting the episode's conclusion just so I can see that if I don't get a spoiler shot of it before hand. ;_; It's hard enough already waiting for those subs.



http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/1172/snapshot20090312204201.jpg

[Myssa Rei]

danin8r44 and panzerfan: To clue you in, I usually play paladin-types (the diplomatic but can fight type, not the lawful stupid metalhead type) so the T-51b is up my alley... Despite my having a 100 Sneak score, haha.

Back to the episode... I think in the end, some viewers will feel cheated. Really. Especially if they missed all the magical references about how the TOWN, yes, the TOWN was trying to teach the kid who hated it a valuable lesson.

...About NOT insulting the TOWN.

Just kidding.

[Sheba]

Yeah, all these shots of the TOWN and the floating lights. You would have asked yourself if the lights have some weight on the mechanisms of Clannadverse. It's almost like a lost cousin of Nasuverse's Earth.

[Ithekro]

I'm not expecting as much "RAGE" from some quarters due to how things happened and what was shown.

I'll still need the eventual subs to find out just what was said during the beginning and ending. The middle was beautiful though.

[Myssa Rei]

Sheba: I was actually joking to a friend about how the TOWN (in CLANNAD) possessed this easily-offended intelligence behind it, a genius loci if you will, and took Tomoya's insult rather personally. It's not the truth, but really, you get the impression on how monumentally screwed up things became before it seemed to say, "Okay, you get it now? Good, here's your miracle."

[Leo_Otaku]

Still a bit puzzled on the light orbs and the other world, but perhaps a rewatching and a trip to the Spoilers Thread will help! :-)

All in all though, a fitting ending and a definite tearjerker, though I'm still left wondering over the significance of the "friend" Fuuko finds. I'm trying to figure out if there's an explained canon significance or just a "hey, that's cool! Ushio's the Illusionary World Girl" deal.


well to my degree of understanding and my take was...

That when you saw allthe orbs of everyone's happiness raining town the two worlds came back together. As those were the orbs seen in the Illusionary World that seemed to have gone opened up in the town. That is my understanding and take on it.

[danin8r44]

I do have one question/complaint about this episode that made me rate it 9 instead of 10. Why did they have Fuku take up virtually half of the episode? I agree that it felt like she "ninjad" the ending. I know it was all revolved before she stepped in, but it was just rather hard to jump from OMG it just ended all dramatically to Fuko...

Guess that's just me though...

[pcube19622]

danin8r44 and panzerfan: To clue you in, I usually play paladin-types (the diplomatic but can fight type, not the lawful stupid metalhead type) so the T-51b is up my alley... Despite my having a 100 Sneak score, haha.

Back to the episode... I think in the end, some viewers will feel cheated. Really. Especially if they missed all the magical references about how the TOWN, yes, the TOWN was trying to teach the kid who hated it a valuable lesson.

...About NOT insulting the TOWN.

Just kidding.

im not sure which game are you talking about@@" and i do agree that the core of the story is about the town and people

we see that ushio in the illusionary world was giving tomoya a vision of what is to come in his life, but then we go through Clannad and AF till ep 22, we see everything changed into a happy ending after the illusionary world got nuked. theres one important lesson that is conveyed but seems like no one noticed it, in the first episode of Clannad nagisa said "NOTHING WILL STAY UNCHANGED". i think nagisa also meant that even the FUTURE will not stay unchanged, that there is no destined future, that we can change the future ourselves.

this is just something i felt after finishing the episode:heh:

overall i love Clannad but AIR is still my favorite from KEY~

[Leo_Otaku]

I do have one question/complaint about this episode that made me rate it 9 instead of 10. Why did they have Fuku take up virtually half of the episode? I agree that it felt like she "ninjad" the ending. I know it was all revolved before she stepped in, but it was just rather hard to jump from OMG it just ended all dramatically to Fuko...

Guess that's just me though...

It actually happened in the original game too , I think a lot of it had to do with the girl. I agree it was too long the conversation even in the orginal. But it made it connect a bit better to know that last part, since some aspect was changed and related back to the light novel esque short stories.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Oh c'mon, the fact that some of us are liking it doesn't mean that we are all a bunch of gut thinkers :p



Well, that's not the fault of the ending itself, but of people expecting it to be a climax at all. As you mentioned, the climax of the series was back at 18. To be frank, most people even without being spoiled and just with paying attention to the little details that were spread throughout the series knew where this all was going. As such, the ending was just intended as a logical conclusion, as a reward to the characters and the viewers, to the former for their struggles and their emotional growup, to the later for having been along the characters all this time, but definitely not as a 'BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
(...)
(...)
(...)
aAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
(...)
AAWW kind of episode. I wouldn't call it an anti climax though, since an anti climax, as a literally resource means that a difficult and seemingly difficult to resolve plot (the intended lead up to the climax) was just solved with something trivial, which is not the case. I hope I'm making myself clear.

I'd call it an anti-climax in the sense that it runs almost in direct opposition to the meaning and message of the climax at episode 18. And if this suddenly happy ending was a "reward" to the viewers then does that mean that the ending to Mai-Hime was a reward too? I'm just curious as to how this reward thing is supposed to work outside of the games context. If it's supposed to be some sort of reward as far as the anime is concerned then I'm even less than impressed.

As time goes on this whole defence of the ending is starting to get harder and harder to swallow for me. Then again maybe I'm just so used to people bitching every time a character who was thought to be dead turns up alive in some other anime I've watched (as in people just rushing straight to the boards to complain without anybody bothering to consider that they might never have died in the first place) that when another anime comes along with characters who were undeniably dead but are Deus Ex'ed so that they never died in the first place and nobody so much as blinks or goes "ara?" it just feels like a double standard in the community. A hollow sentiment and a get out of jail free card if you will.

I guess everything really is okay to most people as long as it's KeyAni that does it then, regardless of whether it hurts the overall themes of the story in the long run. No reason to get upset or anything, it's only a "reward" for the fans. Alas, as a person looking for a bit more then a reward I say nay nay. :nono:

Sorry, but if every other anime that tries this sort of ending instantly gets put in the hot seat for a little while then I don't see why Clannad should be any different just because KeyAni is so swell and everybody likes their animation and favours to the fans. I know that's become the standard as I acknowledged earlier, but I'd like to see that change and to me the same standards should apply to every anime regardless of how much one might like their production company.

Oh and like Myssa mentioned, just because the ending followed the games reward ending doesn't automatically mean that it's okay. Unless we were to assume that the games reward ending is entirely flawless, which I submit it wasn't. Of course this means any gripes I have rest entirely with Jun Maeda and not Kyoani's staff who were more or less just doing their jobs and trying not to get firebombed by die-hard Maeda fans over in Japan. In their case it's a bit of a catch-22.

Anyway, I feel that's if worth mention that if I were gauging this show solely on it's attempts to illicit emotional reactions from the viewers that it gets a flat out 10/10, but unfortunately I'm not so I have to account for a number of other areas where Clannad falls far short of the mark it set with episode 18.

[Proto]

Point taken. I'll think it over over the night and reply tomorrow. :p

[Myssa Rei]

Oh and like Myssa mentioned, just because the ending followed the games reward ending doesn't automatically mean that it's okay. Unless we were to assume that the games reward ending is entirely flawless, which I submit it wasn't. Of course this means any gripes I have rest entirely with Jun Maeda and not Kyoani's staff who were more or less just doing their jobs and trying not to get firebombed by die-hard Maeda fans over in Japan. In their case it's a bit of a catch-22.

It's really because, had CLANNAD been a grounded-in-realism print novel, the ending as given would have been hard to rationalize, given the build up that preceded it. If one dismissed the magical shenanigans connected to the town, a good writer could have just ended the story with the death of Ushio and Tomoya, or heck, just cut the story off at episode 18. The Emil Zola end, which Sheba detests, would have been depressing, but at least it built on what came before it. Plus, it would be more real.

However, as I stress always, this is JUN MAEDA we're talking about here. His scenarios will NEVER be completely grounded in realism, nor will they follow any expected genre conventions, all in the name of eliciting extreme emotional responses.

[Ithekro]

Well that does bring up the question on what the themes were.

Also the difference between a "Oh you aren't dead suddenly" with no method or reasoning behind it plot(hole), or a "you died, I learned a leason, now can you be alive again" story. While no one else blinked at Nagisa, Tomoya most certainly reacted to (and remembered) it from the first time around. It is not like the method was not in play from the start, since we've had the Illusionary World running with the main stroy since day one and the orbs of light and symbolism have been running throughout the storylines.

It is different in a respect from a character that supposedly died in one episode suddenly coming back half a series later with the basic "I got better" or "I was saved from the fall" excuse. This was more the character died at one point in the series and at the end you get to go back and live that part over again where they lived instead from the exact same point. It is a matter of how it is was executed rather than just the event as a plot point.

[Leo_Otaku]

I'd call it an anti-climax in the sense that it runs almost in direct opposition to the meaning and message of the climax at episode 18. And if this suddenly happy ending was a "reward" to the viewers then does that mean that the ending to Mai-Hime was a reward too? I'm just curious as to how this reward thing is supposed to work outside of the games context. If it's supposed to be some sort of reward as far as the anime is concerned then I'm even less than impressed.

As time goes on this whole defence of the ending is starting to get harder and harder to swallow for me. Then again maybe I'm just so used to people bitching every time a character who was thought to be dead turns up alive in some other anime I've watched (as in people just rushing straight to the boards to complain without anybody bothering to consider that they might never have died in the first place) that when another anime comes along with characters who were undeniably dead but are Deus Ex'ed so that they never died in the first place and nobody so much as blinks or goes "ara?" it just feels like a double standard in the community. A hollow sentiment and a get out of jail free card if you will.

I guess everything really is okay to most people as long as it's KeyAni that does it then, regardless of whether it hurts the overall themes of the story in the long run. No reason to get upset or anything, it's only a "reward" for the fans. Alas, as a person looking for a bit more then a reward I say nay nay. :nono:

Sorry, but if every other anime that tries this sort of ending instantly gets put in the hot seat for a little while then I don't see why Clannad should be any different just because KeyAni is so swell and everybody likes their animation and favours to the fans. I know that's become the standard as I acknowledged earlier, but I'd like to see that change and to me the same standards should apply to every anime regardless of how much one might like their production company.

Oh and like Myssa mentioned, just because the ending followed the games reward ending doesn't automatically mean that it's okay. Unless we were to assume that the games reward ending is entirely flawless, which I submit it wasn't. Of course this means any gripes I have rest entirely with Jun Maeda and not Kyoani's staff who were more or less just doing their jobs and trying not to get firebombed by die-hard Maeda fans over in Japan. In their case it's a bit of a catch-22.

Anyway, I feel that's if worth mention that if I were gauging this show solely on it's attempts to illicit emotional reactions from the viewers that it gets a flat out 10/10, but unfortunately I'm not so I have to account for a number of other areas where Clannad falls far short of the mark it set with episode 18.

But do you really even understand how or why the ending happened. It wasn't just yay. It was a pretty complex idea far cry from how Mai Hime ended. Not saying you can't have an opion about it and I accept your opinion. But as I said before... (see previous posts) how the story wouldn't be as it was unless it failed in which it would seem too similiar to another title.

Um not with Jun Maeda but with KEY it is a studio. As said before his original idea was changed due to how games like AIR was received.

[Change of Pace]

So being an impatient little dumbass, I became totally incapable of waiting for the subs after seeing Mei's teenage snapshot. So I watched it, and was pleasantly surprised to find I understood the spoken words entirely. Granted, there wasn't that much dialogue as per usual, but still, that renders me largely delighted.

Anyways, while the entire concept of the good end is, indeed, a deus ex machina "gift" to the viewers, I don't have a problem with it. Though the anime certainly isn't a first-persona narration like the VN, we, the viewers, have still had to see the tragic events that occurred within Clannad's canon, and frankly, it was painful. Whether the events that transpired in this episode are totally off-the-wall, ridiculous, or whatever other colourful synonym you want to use, just for a short 23 minutes, I'm willing to dispel my common sense and just breathe in the possibility that in some other world this might happen, and let myself be pleased with an impossible yet satisfying end. I mean, after bombarding us with the worst possible tragedies, I find it odd that someone's actually NOT thinking like a sap and not wanting something - anything - good to just happen, and let it be done with. Sure, I had to toss my common sense out the proverbial window in order to accept this end, and I don't want to contemplate it too hard, either, or that which I've discarded may find a way to reenter said sealed window. And that would result in me potentially feeling a terrible depression over Clannad all over again. But my case and point being that, while I don't oppose criticism of a series like Clannad in the slightest - I've had many qualms over the course of this season that I usually keep to myself because it's just such a pain to post something negative and then get hollered at for it - I think that just for a moment, just to give me something to smile at, I can temporarily kick reason to the curb and believe what KyoAni wants me to believe. The two concepts of the robot evaporating and mindblasting into Tomoya's head and Tomoya keeping his memories of his bad end and the memories from the illusionary world ? Wouldn't believe it for a second. And that's why I'm not going to think about the episode's events at all. I wanted a happy end, ultimately, and if this is the only happy end I can get, whether it's plausible or not... well, beggars can't be choosers, as they say.

[MeoTwister5]

No offense to anyone, but I am MAJORLY miffed at people who assume that the core themes (and I bold the s) of Clannad ended prior to episode 21 with whatever resolution to the theme that occurred there. The thematic concerns of this story does not end there, neither was it complete, because the theme further develops and is extended as the story progresses, practically the same as with any story. The ending here seeks to add yet another theme to what the story barely touched upon that day in April where a man and a woman first met at the bottom of the hill. One could say that their chance meeting on that hill was a miracle in and of itself.

pcube19622 was the one who completey hit the nail on the head here: that things do change. I go a bit further to state that this goes further to say that even the future itself changes, that the future is not set in stone, that Tomoya had experienced the downright impossible miracle of living through this statement. I'll cookie you later for that.

It is clear enough to me that the thematic journey through the Clannad universe did not end with 18. Even though 18 is still my favotie episode overall, it still felt incomplete and unfinished, like a diamond still unrefined and and unpolished. Here and in the game, episode 18 of AS felt only like the major stepping stone toward a conclusion that can ONLY EXIST because episode 18 was there. Episode 18 was the signal that foretold the end, not an ending in and of itself. Episode 18 began the journey towards the miracle that Tomoya had struggled to earn, but only with a cost.

Suffering predates reward.

If anything the core theme that the Key writers, and maybe Maeda in particular, have been trying to get across to people is the belief that indeed there is a light at the end of the tunnel no matter how unbelievable or unlikely it seems to be. As such, the tunnel is but a required means of getting there, part and parcel of the road that one indertakes in search of their miracle, the end to their sufferings and that island of joy in a sea of troubles.

Miracles are miracles because they are unlikely to happen, most likely outlandish and reality defying at their cores, and one is not likely to encounter one any time soon. And yet people believe in miracles because despite the odds, they have indeed occurred, and while Clannad does take this theme to an extreme, that is precisely the point of the ending.

That one must experience his circumstances and learn what he must, to learn that which will make him understand what he truly wants and what he truly holds dear. That one must go through life experiencing its ups and downs, its ease and hardships, and one slowly matures towards the moment in time where he can finally say to himself "this is what I'm looking for". That one takes with stride and demeanor even those experiences that wishes to crush him, the experiences that makes him questions his bonds and his beliefs, the experiences that strains his dreams and his desires, the experiences that shatter his world and his reality and the experiences that pushes him when he's down (Season 1 and 2 of Clannad). Towards finally, nearing end of man's Sysiphian struggle, the experience that puts all things into perspective (Episode 18-20).

It is after all that, when man has finally learned and experienced his life for all it's worth, does he finally earn the right to his miracle. (True End).

Had not Tomoya experienced all this?

And thus I think precisely Jun Maeda's point: that only when man has experienced the entire spectrum of life experience and learns that which he must does he earn the right to that which is supernatural, unbelievable and unlikely: the human Miracle.

And what is this miracle?

The family is this miracle. A family incomplete without Nagisa.

Call it a miracle of unlikely odds. That 2 broken humans could ever meet at the bottom of that hill that April morning. That 2 of them would ever eat in the courtyard and exchange their names. That 2 of them would try and restart a club no one wants.

That 2 of them would ever meet a ghost girl who's only wish is the happiness of her sister. That 2 of them would ever befriend a pair of twins with such a diverse sepctrum of personality. That the 2 of them would ever befriend a genius girl who had locked away her heart after the death of her parents, only to open it from its glass prison.

The 2 of them would become part of the movement to save the very same cherry trees under whose guises they first met. The 2 of them would prove their mettle by playing a game of basketball against the school's own varsity team. The 2 of them would create a play about an Illusionary World that would bring people to tears. The 2 of them would help in the reconciliation of a brother and sister. The 2 of them would even bring together rival gangs in the midst of anger and hatred.

And at the end of all this still, that 2 broken and lonely human beings would fall in love and get married, after one punches a wall in a silent scream of his sadness and desperation. For it is here that they realize just how much the 2 of them have come, and that truly, they need each other.

Even in death as the remaining one learns what it is to be a father, a husband and a son.

Here he learns what family is all about, even though the family is not physically present.

That family itself IS a miracle.

This is family.

This is Clannad.

[W-General]

OK looks like I don't have to rage. Good end is good. But I don't get it.
Imaginary world. I don't get it. Parallel universe? I don't get it.

I would've settled with Ushio being fine and Nagisa staying dead. But they brought the whole gang back, and Fool-ko still gets to be friends with Ushio. Weird stuff, but I love the ending nonetheless.

Favorite part was when Tomoya decided to go back and grab Nagisa's arm on the hill. Almost...almost cried.

Now I just need to scour the Internet (or this thread) for what this episode means and why Nagisa is back alive.

I also like all the extra touch to the ending scene when the opening sequence of Clannad and Clannad After comes full circle and is shown. I like that.

Oh and LOL what? A spunky Kotomi-chan? Madness.

[Mecha_Trueno]

For Nagisa as a MILF. I want to take her home.
Also somethings don't change. Sanae and Akio still run around the town because of her bread.Clannad is PROOF that running/exercise is good is for you:D, look at Sanae:naughty: and AKio Akki.

[Kaioshin Sama]

That family itself IS a miracle.

This is family.

This is Clannad.

And it's absolutely 100% pure feel good fantasy and little else. I can accept that though, I just refuse to accept that Clannad was some ultra deep and resonating work of art that is meant to teach me some sort of significant lesson about family.



It is different in a respect from a character that supposedly died in one episode suddenly coming back half a series later with the basic "I got better" or "I was saved from the fall" excuse. This was more the character died at one point in the series and at the end you get to go back and live that part over again where they lived instead from the exact same point. It is a matter of how it is was executed rather than just the event as a plot point.

I'm sorry, I fail to see how either is more excusable then the other. And I've also seen the former executed perfectly fine and with perfectly valid reasons to justify it only for it to still be a major problem with a lot of people as far as recent series go so I can't say that's how it works at all. To me it just seems a whole lot simpler then that. People just pick and choose based on what they've decided to like ahead of time whether a plot development is acceptable or if it's going to get ridiculed.

[MeoTwister5]

And it's absolutely 100% pure feel good fantasy and little else. I can accept that though, I just refuse to accept that Clannad was some ultra deep and resonating work of art that is meant to teach me some sort of significant lesson about family.

Because Clannad isn't some super deep work of art or genius mode of storytelling. It's still a simple story of simple means involving simple people in a not so simple premise, delivered in an old tried and tested method of storytelling.

It's still supposed to teach a lesson of family though, one that I am thankful that many others have managed to see.

[Ithekro]

Some people have good families, some don't. It is the nature of the human race.

Ushio's family is not perfect, but it is functional. She only has one set of fuctional grandparents (Tomoya's father is spent and Tomoya's mother is long dead), but she makes do with some of the best grandparents possible.

That and we only see their lives together until Ushio is five. If the couple are truely suited for each other, this time isn't all that difficult...it is when the child becomes a teenager that things get rough.

[Myssa Rei]

*snips*

Given the course I'm taking, I have to say, I don't agree. I'm taking up a Master's degree in Creative Writing, but I don't need the actual degree to see that the conclusion... Isn't great.

When you think with your head instead of your heart, then please tell me how the message of Family not have been given more credence by the fact that an emotionally broken man finally found the strength to reach out to a daughter he never knew, and make up for the years that he was never there for her? The message is not diluted by the fact that Tomoya would pretty much have to race Ushio on his own, in fact it strengthens the theme of Family, in that no matter how screwed up your life has been, a person's family will always, ALWAYS be there for them.

Also, that life isn't fair.

But again, we're talking about something that came from Jun Maeda's pen.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Because Clannad isn't some super deep work of art or genius mode of storytelling. It's still a simple story of simple means involving simple people in a not so simple premise, delivered in an old tried and tested method of storytelling.

It's still supposed to teach a lesson of family though, one that I am thankful that many others have managed to see.

Well then I fail to see the lesson in the ending. What's the lesson now, that if you suffer enough good things will eventually happen like your dead wife coming back to life and you getting to live happily ever after.

Like I said, I preferred it when the theme came across more realistically as a matter of Tomoya accepting his responsibility as a father. That's a realistic lesson that anyone can take home. Instead though I guess Maeda thought it would be better to pull out one more tearjerker with Ushio developing Nagisa's sickness, promptly dying and then everything getting put back to a happier time for this whole fairy tale notion of the night always being darkest before the dawn.

I'm sorry, but real family life does not work the way it does in KEY stories and life isn't always quite so kind or quite so harsh as Maeda's emotional rollercoasters. If I'm going to take home a lesson from an anime such as this I'm going to at least have to ask that it be grounded in some realism and actually be applicable to my own reality based life. Suffering does not necessarily predate reward, it's a nice idealistic sentiment, it really is and I wish life were more like it (at best I suppose I can label Clannad an escapist tale) but a sentiment it remains, and one that is only guaranteed to pay off in fantasy stories like Clannad. I'm more then happy to leave such notions where they they lie.

[Kaisos Erranon]

And it's absolutely 100% pure feel good fantasy and little else. I can accept that though, I just refuse to accept that Clannad was some ultra deep and resonating work of art that is meant to teach me some sort of significant lesson about family.

Well, what were you expecting?

People just pick and choose based on what they've decided to like ahead of time whether a plot development is acceptable or if it's going to get ridiculed.

And so you begin to understand why some series are more popular than others.


When you think with your head instead of your heart

And that's the problem, isn't it.


I'm sorry, but real family life does not work the way it does in KEY stories and life isn't always quite so kind or quite so harsh as Maeda's emotional rollercoasters.

EXACTLY. THIS IS A STORY. NOT REAL LIFE.

Nor is it meant to be. It's a happy, idealistic tale about the importance of family.

[Tempester]

The real problem here is not the fantasy elements themselves but the impression they leave.

Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann was far from realistic, with mountain-sized robots dishing it out against each other and heroic characters fighting against infinite odds. But despite all that, the show had one element of realism: the dead don't come back to life, except for one character but he wasn't really the same after being "revived" as a bioelectronic head in a liquid tank. You must accept their passing and move on. I thought that that was really motivational and inspiring and it improved my impression of the show.

Clannad was mostly much more realistic than Gurren Lagann, but its final use of fantasy, the "time warp" and light orbs, removed a lot of sympathy one has for the characters, just as Kaioshin-sama said.

You can tell a ridiculous fantasy story but be able to connect with the characters and you can also tell a story grounded in realism but with distant characters.

[MeoTwister5]

Given the course I'm taking, I have to say, I don't agree. I'm taking up a Master's degree in Creative Writing, but I don't need the actual degree to see that the conclusion... Isn't great.

When you think with your head instead of your heart, then please tell me how the message of Family not have been given more credence by the fact that an emotionally broken man finally found the strength to reach out to a daughter he never knew, and make up for the years that he was never there for her? The message is not diluted by the fact that Tomoya would pretty much have to race Ushio on his own, in fact it strengthens the theme of Family, in that no matter how screwed up your life has been, a person's family will always, ALWAYS be there for them.

Also, that life isn't fair.

But again, we're talking about something that came from Jun Maeda's pen.

While I was trying to finish my minor in Philosophy, one of my professors said that the biggest mistake any reader can do for any text is to read it from a purely rational or heartfelt manner, whther it is a work of science or a work of art. As such I approach most of anything with this duality, to see it from both the mind's eye and the heart's eye, and I'll reply using both.

First of all, You're trying to bring together the theme from episode 18 and episode 22 and package it into a beliefe that it must exist as one encompassing and unifying theme. They exist as 2 themes of the show contributing to bring the major theme of the show unto fruition. They are NOT themselves THE themes of the show, only but stepping stones towards the theme, but important nonetheless. They are each a minor fraction of the family theme, each one bringing out a lesson for Tomoya to learn, and at the end synthesizing it into what he must realize.

1. Episode 18 is about parental duty. To try and seek out the lost time between them to know that the bond is ALWAYS there even with the 5 year gap, that the bond can be rekindled and strengthened despite the absence if only one is willing to try and bridge it again. The foundations have always been there, it was up to Tomoya to build the bridge.

2. Episode 22 was about the struggle to find even the smallest miracle in the midst of saddness. Tomoya essentially invested his hope for happiness after the Illusionary Girl revealed the only way to happiness was the light orbs, and from here Tomoya just had to believe that a miracle was possible. And a miracle did happen. It focuses more on a miracle occurring for the sake of their joy.

And yet these 2 are not the THE core themes of story. They only reveal smaller aspects of the core theme. Episode 18 reveals that family entails responsibility, that no family's bond's can be broken by time and tragedy as long as one wishes to cross the bridge. Episode 22 reveals that family entails HOPE, hope for a shared happiness of each family member, even if it requires believing in miracles.

--------

I'm gonna go edit my first post in this thread a little. Some things I probably should have said.

[Ithekro]

I don't watch anime for realistic ending...or television and movies for that matter. If I wanted an realistic ending I'd watch the news or go outside.

I've viewed our entertainment as a way to forget (if only for a little while) the harshness of reality. Though sometimes reality is not as harsh as some people would have you believe, I'd rather not see a movie or show that ends on a depressing note intentionally. This is why I don't like watching Greece Tragidies off the BBC or PBS anymore. I have no reason to remind myself of the evils and harshness that reality can bring about without balance.

The leason that life is hard, and sucks is not a leason I would choose to remind myself of repeatedly. Too many shows go for gritty realism these days and I think you can see it effecting the population. Many people are depressed and unmotivated. The amount of questioning one's moral standards and even nationalistic ideals has almost gotten to the point of no one liking or caring about anything anymore. So I choose to like the idea of a happy ending. So in that respect, Clannad works just fine.

[Myssa Rei]

Nor is it meant to be. It's a happy, idealistic tale about the importance of family.

Idealistic? I can agree on that. Happy? Not by a long short dear sir.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Well, what were you expecting?



And so you begin to understand why some series are more popular than others.



And that's the problem, isn't it.



EXACTLY. THIS IS A STORY. NOT REAL LIFE.

Nor is it meant to be. It's a happy, idealistic tale about the importance of family.

Don't look at me like I don't know all of this, I'm just replying to MeoTwister5's bit about Clannad supposedly trying to teach a lesson. If one is to try and work at it from that angle then you have to think with your head instead of your heart, and that's where one runs into problems. Also if you're going to take a lesson away then it has to be applicable to real life. That's another area where one runs into problems with Clannad's family theme.

Right now you and MeoTwister5 are like the devil and angel on my shoulder with one trying to tell me to look at it as a tale about family with applicable lessons to be learned and the other telling me to look at it as pure fantasy and idealism, but in the end I think the choice has always been obvious thanks to me being left no other option.

Anyway, some series are more popular then others due to community bias, which really speaks for the times, but I'd rather not get into that right now.

Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to go watch some episodes of Leave it To Beaver and Father Knows Best. :D (this is a joke btw)



And yet these 2 are not the THE core themes of story. They only reveal smaller aspects of the core theme. Episode 18 reveals that family entails responsibility, that no family's bond's can be broken by time and tragedy as long as one wishes to cross the bridge. Episode 22 reveals that family entails HOPE, hope for a shared happiness of each family member, even if it requires believing in miracles.


Boom! Right there, that's the catch.

[hbk19]

Hello, I recently got into Clannad after The Anime Network put the show on its VOD service. I was hooked, I got the first dvd set, but I couldn't stop watching. I watch until, well this episode.

This is where I actually get on topic and on and about ep 22.

I feel like my emotions have been violated QQ

Like some of you jokingly commented on being morbid I too felt that all that struggle with Ushio was just a waste.

Specially since some things that happened in the timeline Nagisa dies do not happen when Okazaki gets a do over, like coming to terms with his father.

I literally shat bricks, pardon for the language but that is how I felt through the entire series. Specially towards AS. Then... this do over.. well thats nice but was it really neccessary? Having Ushio not die would have been good enough, I know this is a bit too much but having Okazaki reconstruct his life with lets say Kyo*she was the older twin right? Would have made more sense.

But then again I'm sorry but I too as I think about this I realize this isn't Rumbling hearts where the whole story was ****ing brutal. I get this is obviously a milder story but having Ushio live on and Tomoya reconstruct his life would have been a lot better than having an "easy button"

Well those are my feelings abou tthe series and the ending.
thank you for reading.

[Myssa Rei]

While I was trying to finish my minor in Philosophy, one of my professors said that the biggest mistake any reader can do for any text is to read it from a purely rational or heartfelt manner, whther it is a work of science or a work of art. As such I approach most of anything with this duality, to see it from both the mind's eye and the heart's eye, and I'll reply using both.


I am no Formalist, nor do I prescribe to the Neo-Criticism (which I might add has been long considered a joke by many of my professors, including Dr. Isagani Cruz, premiere Literary Critic of our country), however the overarching theme of Family and the World of Illusion aspect do not segue very well. At best, the World of Illusion can be seen as a quaint metaphor and allusion to the experiences of the main cast in the 'real world', but at its worst (and I'm sure the people who haven't caught the subtle nuances will see it as such) it's a convenient contrivance that the author can use to reset events when they've proved a point.

I never came into CLANNAD expecting a realistic story. But frankly, the resolution could have been done better.

[Kaisos Erranon]

Idealistic? I can agree on that. Happy? Not by a long short dear sir.

Ultimately happy. Most of the routes and After Story have a happy ending.

Perhaps "positive" was the word I was looking for.


The leason that life is hard, and sucks is not a leason I would choose to remind myself of repeatedly. Too many shows go for gritty realism these days and I think you can see it effecting the population. Many people are depressed and unmotivated. The amount of questioning one's moral standards and even nationalistic ideals has almost gotten to the point of no one liking or caring about anything anymore. So I choose to like the idea of a happy ending. So in that respect, Clannad works just fine.

Thank you. Thank you for expressing a sentiment I've held for quite a while now.


Though I personally don't mind more tragic/bittersweet endings, as they can be quite powerful. Normally I'd give an example here, but no one cares about that.

[MeoTwister5]

People are focusing SO MUCH on Nagisa coming back alive. THAT IS NOT THE POINT DAMMIT.

People are again assuming that the thematic point of the series reached its end in epsiode 18. Episode 22 only wished to try and flesh out some thematic concerns by trying to tell the readers that miracles do indeed happen, mayhaps even the most ridiculous ones, because they can indeed happen.

And this is where I find the paradox of the opposing argument almost perplexing. You bind excessively on realism when the story itself almost blatantly tells you that it is not. You then criticize it for doing an unnatural ending when it points beyond just that. The story is damned if you do, damned if you don't. This is not the fault of the story, it falls to human perception.

Boom! Right there, that's the catch.

Yeah, that in itself is the problem here. If people are too much of a realist to accept the possiblity of a miracle ever occurring in real life, then the ending is pointless.

If you are like me however, who believes that hope is still a powerful tool of the human soul capable of extracting miracles, then this is a reinforcement of that belief.

@Myssa

The Illusionary World isn't really supposed to be a metaphor of the real world, it's essentially a parallelism of Tomoya's experiences and only Tomoya's experiences.

[Kaisos Erranon]

People are focusing SO MUCH on Nagisa coming back alive. THAT IS NOT THE POINT DAMMIT.

I'm frankly surprised the shitstorm hasn't been bigger.

If this wasn't Clannad, I'd be complaining too.

But this is a Key game, which works on magic realism, and dead people do not stay dead.


Yeah, that in itself is the problem here. If people are too much of a realist to accept the possiblity of a miracle ever occurring in real life, then the ending is pointless.

But... miracles DON'T happen in real life. Death is a permanent end to existence.

Bad things happen to good people, all the time. A life sucks, suck it up kind of thing.

This is why Clannad ISN'T real life.

[Kaioshin Sama]

People are focusing SO MUCH on Nagisa coming back alive. THAT IS NOT THE POINT DAMMIT.

People are again assuming that the thematic point of the series reached its end in epsiode 18. Episode 22 only wished to try and flesh out some thematic concerns by trying to tell the readers that miracles do indeed happen, mayhaps even the most ridiculous ones, because they can indeed happen.

And this is where I find the paradox of the opposing argument almost perplexing. You bind excessively on realism when the story itself almost blatantly tells you that it is not. You then criticize it for doing an unnatural ending when it points beyond just that. The story is damned if you do, damned if you don't. This is not the fault of the story, it falls to human perception.



Yeah, that in itself is the problem here. If people are too much of a realist to accept the possiblity of a miracle ever occurring in real life, then the ending is pointless.

If you are like me however, who believes that hope is still a powerful tool of the human soul capable of extracting miracles, then this is a reinforcement of that existence.

Miracles are something like a family member escaping a horrible accident or illness that probably should have killed them if everything didn't fall into place perfectly, fantasy is dead people coming back to life. I would have been perfectly fine with something like Ushio falling into a coma and then when all seemed lost a miracle happened and she woke up, but Nagisa who has been dead for several years now......it's not so much that I have a problem with the story asking one to believe in miracles as I do with how it was portrayed.

[Ithekro]

Judging from the montage of everyone, the image of Tomoya and his father in the field right after they (Nagisa, Ushio, and Tomoya) visit Tomoya's grandmother, would suggest to me that he did come to terms with his father at some point in those five years. Perhaps not entirely for the same reason, but perhaps it was...he did clearly have at least some memory of previous events. But even then just being a father and visiting his grandmother may have been enough for Tomoya to let go of his hard feeling for his father. Considering that was part of Sanae's plan some episodes ago...I wouldn't put it past her and/or Nagisa to come up with a similar plan the second time around.

[MeoTwister5]

Well you can appreciate the ending 2 ways: Either see it as a puely idealstic tale of death and love, or see it as a message of idealism potentially existing in our sad and morbidly real world.

I happen to subscribe to the latter.

[hbk19]

My apologies if someone caught my post thinking of it as a rant. So sorry, I absolutely love this series, and although it would sound a bit contradictory I did not care whether the show is realistic or not. If I recall correctly Akio-san went through a similar event with Nagisa when she was sick.

I have not played the visual novel and with that I will probably be poked fun at but here are some things that are not neccessarily realistic but make sense:

1) Okazaki's wife is dead
2) Friend who had a crush on Okazaki is back in his life, as the teacher of Ushio.
3) Pretty darn sure she still secretly loves him
4) Ushio would not want to replace her mom, but rather have his father be happy by getting married once more, and who better than her teacher.

I know Kyo became a teacher, but was it really necessary to bring her back in such role if she was not going to do anything relevant to the current story?

I don't recall her seen at all after everything went back to normal just like Tomoya's father *besides the epilogue. All that gone to waste.

I am happy with the ending, although I didn't quite get the point of Fuko finding Ushio sleeping I enjoyed the episode.

EDIT: Yes I sort of figured showing the grandmother again would show like it did happen but it just seemed to me that his father played such a huge indirect role in the story and the in the life of Tomoya I kind of wanted to it again.. since well the story got a do over lol

[Zenemis]

The characters aren't realistic you say? They were never meant to be.

Fuuko is a ghost.
Tomoyo is impossibly strong.
Nagisa is impossibly nice.

CLANNAD had characters representing themes, not people.

I would have a problem with it, if they threw in the light-orbs at the last second, but they were evident throughout the entirety of both seasons.

Tomoya brought people happiness, and he was rewarded for it.

[Myssa Rei]

Well you can appreciate the ending 2 ways: Either see it as a puely idealstic tale of death and love, or see it as a message of idealism potentially existing in our sad and morbidly real world.

I happen to subscribe to the latter.


I subscribe to neither.

[Silverwyrm]

This ending had the same effect to me as Kanon...it really cheapened the entire show for me. Now I'm not someone who likes sad endings, I prefer happy but I don't like how it was done in both shows. It makes a lot of the previous suffering and lessons feel rather pointless to me, meaningless even. I would have loved to see a good happy ending but the way it was done just left me scratching my head again. I'm not even necessarily looking for "realism" but a miracle might have a different form than "everything that went wrong is right. the end."

Also after seeing the exact same thing in Kanon (albeit it seemed truly random there) it really didn't feel original. Personally, I while I was glad to see a happy ending I can't help but feel let down by it at the same time.

[Zenemis]

Honestly, I agree. But that problem existed in the source material as well, and I felt the same thing then.

[hbk19]

So... yeah great show, loved the episode

*stealthily adds another question*

How is Kanon and Air compared to Clannad? (the anime)

[MeoTwister5]

For the record, I don't see Clannad's ending to be one of the best endings I have ever seen, I've seen better and while it was emotionally touching it doesn't give as much closure as I would have wanted it to.

[Kaisos Erranon]

Also after seeing the exact same thing in Kanon (albeit it seemed truly random there) it really didn't feel original. Personally, I while I was glad to see a happy ending I can't help but feel let down by it at the same time.

Ironically. It is VERY difficult to have a happy ending that doesn't feel cheap in some way.

I'd argue that the happy endings of Type-Moon games are pretty decent though. Chaos;HEAd too, though that could have used a hell of a lot more closure. Too bad the anime sucked... ;_;


I would have a problem with it, if they threw in the light-orbs at the last second, but they were evident throughout the entirety of both seasons.

Tomoya brought people happiness, and he was rewarded for it.

This is really really evident in the game, where the light orbs are basically quest rewards for making people happy.

The whole game you're all "what the hell are these orbs for?" And then you reload from the day of Ushio's birth and then go "Oh."


By the way, since no one's mentioned it yet:

Another way to look at Clannad is with the following impression in mind:

Tomoya is dead, and was dead from the start.

After Ushio died in the 'original' timeline, Tomoya killed himself, and his soul, unsatisfied and unwilling to pass on, became trapped in the Illusionary World.

After being unable to save the girl (in actuality the soul of Ushio, bound to the World due to Nagisa's contract with the town) Tomoya's soul begins a quest across parallel universes in order to collect enough light orbs to bring Nagisa back to life and fix everything.

Again, the game makes this a little more obvious by having Tomoya pass out and return to the Illusionary World if he gets a bad end.

Also, Tomoyo After might illustrate that Tomoya inevitably died in every ending that isn't the True Ending of After Story. But I don't know for certain.

[Ithekro]

As for Nagisa. Remember episode 16 and the debates on who should have done what? Also remember her chances 50-50. Episodes 17-21 and 22 are the two possibilites based on episode 16. While it is generally classed as a miracle, it can also be viewed as a parallel development. Both cases are true from a certian point of view. Also note the lighting and sounds in episode 16. The world around Tomoya is whited out...you can't see or hear anyone else in the room even though there are three other people there, only Tomoya, Nagisa, and Ushio. Now take that same scene in 22. The world is in full color, and the rest of the family is present and accounted for (Sanae, Akio and the midwife). One can make a case that from when the world whited out to that moment in 22 didn't happen and thus was just Tomoya projecting his fears and insecurities about the future...but since the leason about family still needed to be learned (or earned I suppose), 17-21 does happen, and Tomoya is looped and/or shifted to a different world where he understands the nature of family and what the that means (both the joys and sadness of it), and gains he's family in full like he probably should have without what people were calling the "contrived" mystery illness.

Basically the ending you get in 22 is the ending Tomoya would and should get because there should be no mystery illness in the first place. If you are looking for realism, take that concept and make what you have with it.

(I would assume Tomoyo After is the result of complaints about the end girl and complaints about the lack of realism in the ending. Also the lack of ero content in Clannad from some of Key's target market. Also a shift in the message to what more of the realist have been saying in this thread so far.)

[Kaioshin Sama]

I subscribe to neither.

And in some strange way I am first to subscribe to both.......which again is where I run into problems. If you can show me the path to your POV then I'd be more than happy to join you there though.

Silverwyrm bring up another point I actually failed to mention. Didn't KeyAni do pretty much the same thing with Kanon? The whole miracles bit kind of has less of an impact the second time around. You can almost add freshness to the reasons why I preferred the lesson at the end of episode 18 far more then the one here, because I've seen the whole sufferring brings reward ending from KeyAni before.

Anyway I've made my point so unless anything new crops up into the conversation I'm off to do some other things. I just want to thank everybody for the quality of the discussion and the great spirit of the message board for allowing things to remain civil despite such contrasting viewpoints being brought to the table. :)

[Kaisos Erranon]

Silverwyrm bring up another point I actually failed to mention. Didn't KeyAni do pretty much the same thing with Kanon? The whole miracles bit kind of has less of an impact the second time around. You can almost add freshness to the reasons why I preferred the lesson at the end of episode 18 far more then the one here, because I've seen the whole sufferring brings reward ending from KeyAni before.

Don't think you'll like Little Busters then. At least they present the miracles and death in a refreshing FASHION though.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Don't think you'll like Little Busters then. At least they present the miracles and death in a refreshing FASHION though.

I already know all about Little Busters actually. Yes even about "that" bit.

[Kaisos Erranon]

I already know all about Little Busters actually. Yes even about "that" bit.

Then you'd agree that it's a fair bit different from other Key games and that they actually tried to do the whole miracle thing interestingly?

[Kaioshin Sama]

Then you'd agree that it's a fair bit different from other Key games and that they actually tried to do the whole miracle thing interestingly?

Slightly, but this isn't really the place to discuss it and like I said I have to be off. Check you PM's though.

[Ithekro]

Does make me wonder how the possible Higurashi-like Key story of Rewrite will turn out.

I do like that Fuuko was able to get the last word. Though it does bring up some interesting questions about the meaning of the final images.

[hbk19]

Does make me wonder how the possible Higurashi-like Key story of Rewrite will turn out.

I do like that Fuuko was able to get the last word. Though it does bring up some interesting questions about the meaning of the final images.

If the girl sleeping at the end is Ushio, then the only possible conclusion is!!!!!

She'll take her as her sister only to have Kouko bring Ushio back to Nagisa/Tomoya when she finds out what Fuko did.

Lol

[Myssa Rei]

Kaioh: Trade secret, ha ha.

MeoTwister5: I can agree with that. The resolution could have been done better; even with the mystical themes, they STILL could have made it so it seemed less a plot contrivance. but nooo....

Ithekro: It remains to be seen if Ryukishi can do Jun Maeda better.

[Myssa Rei]

(I would assume Tomoyo After is the result of complaints about the end girl and complaints about the lack of realism in the ending. Also the lack of ero content in Clannad from some of Key's target market. Also a shift in the message to what more of the realist have been saying in this thread so far.)

More of the lack of Ero actually than any need for more realism. Notice how, all of a sudden, Little Busters had H-scenes with the remake EXCSTACY, when the game's story actually flowed better WITHOUT them.

Now, can SOMEONE update the CLANNAD TV Tropes page now? Frankly many of the entries are either out of date or inaccurately pointing to the WRONG tropes.

[Kaisos Erranon]

More of the lack of Ero actually than any need for more realism. Notice how, all of a sudden, Little Busters had H-scenes with the remake EXCSTACY, when the game's story actually flowed better WITHOUT them.

I'm still waiting on the patch for Little Busters, but I know just by looking at the CGs that there's a fair bit of implied sex in the original release.

I would think that the ero-scenes would have been integrated more seamlessly than they were in Kanon, in which case.

[Nosauz]

This episode was good, no where near as impactful as say 16, or 18 but still it was able to ellicit an emotion from the viewer and it used a some what loathsome ressurection plot contrivance. This show is pretty much EXACTLY like Midori no Hibi's ending, the whole aspect of reliving a part of life that you once where involved in that is no longer true anymore. I feel like the way the show handled the ending was ok, but the voice acting was weak especially with the girl from the illusory world, and nagisa during child labor redux. The voice acting could have stressed I dunno the plausibility of the scene, whereas the dialogue was read as if everybody was a ok. This is just a gripe on some of the tehcnical aspects of the work. This show I believe also stresses that happiness is not a given, and that each day we are happy is in itself a miracle, hence all the happiness orbs. The theme to tie all of this happiness and all of these micromiracles as I will refer to them is family. The family is the center of where we exist, I find it hard to see critics on this show about its realism, the show was never billed as strictly slice of life, the story emphaised the real world as much as the fantasy in its story. To say bringing back Nagisa cheapened the moment is just a subjective opinion as is the opinion that it was not cheasy. I find the moment when tomoya again chooses to call out to Nagisa one of the best scenes in the episode, his cry to her is one filled with sorrow and happiness, two emotions that are seemingly contradictory yet he still calls out to her, overall the high or the emotional climax of this episode didn't really reach the levels of episodes 16, 18 but as the ending point of the story it felt right.

[suka-pon-tan]

ahhh Im weak about symbolism stuff.
Did their illness was healed?
If it`s not, they gonna be sick again, and might die again...later.
I know this is stupid question, or maybe I missed something.
but I realy want know...

[Myssa Rei]

ahhh Im weak about symbolism stuff.
Did their illness was healed?
If it`s not, they gonna be sick again, and might die again...later.
I know this is stupid question, or maybe I missed something.
but I realy want know...

The contract with the town was paid in full, as that was what the mystery sickness is actually alluded to be. As Tomoya seems to have satisfied the Town's conditions, the sickness was dispelled. In short, it's gone Jim.

[drpassafiume]

Before reading any posts or doing more than a rough translation in my head...

Last week, I asked you all to focus your mental and psychic energy to bend the space time continuumumumum and bring Ushio back to life...
What can I say but, everyone, you took it a step further, you've gone the extra mile and I salute you:bow: thanks to everyone's extra effort, Nagisa is alive and well, as it should be. Together, we have warped the fabric of space and time, and the consequences of toying with reality will be grave indeed, :nono: Grave indeed... :uhoh:
But who cares? :innocent:
Now that we've done this, we can ... we can...:thinker: Take Over the World!:twitch:
or... something like that:heh:
anyway, I'm glad it turned out alright, for a minute there I was afraid we'd all be sucked into a black hole or something...:uhoh:
I'm just rambling (and stretching a joke farther than I should) I'm too happy to think straight and I've got a final exam in japaneese tomorrow, can't wait for the subs to come out!
10/10

[suka-pon-tan]

The contract with the town was paid in full, as that was what the mystery sickness is actually alluded to be. As Tomoya seems to have satisfied the Town's conditions, the sickness was dispelled. In short, it's gone Jim.

Oh I see. I should rewatch from 1 season.
Thank you.

[Rikimtasu]

Hell Yeah~
It is happy end...and a lot of extra.GJ,KyoAni.
http://f.imagehost.org/dl/11c94ab1138b748c674aa48a9ede6c51/0404/1236878236577.jpg
http://f.imagehost.org/dl/8f2fa232f9d9814ffb2615d3aa3b4a69/0286/1236878311974.jpg
http://f.imagehost.org/dl/d45e2499c78118a1483c56f001eeabde/0184/1236878356782.jpg

[Jimmy C]

Needed only one more thing, having Tomoya's father present and smiling when they visited Shino at the end of the montage. That would nail the last loose end.

[laksmkk]

well after watching ep 22 I went back to Season 1 episode 1. For my surprise, the op of s1 shows part of ep 22. I felt wierd. haha.
anyways gocha re watch this episode when the sub comes out.

[Ithekro]

It is kind of funny. The two OPs give you part of the ending, but since one would not have seen it until now...you wouldn't (or shouldn't) know that until really late in the series.

[cbatty]

Darn it... I have never been so keen to watch an episode of anything as much as this (even the new BSG's will take second seat to this episode!) Bring on the subs! The suspense is killing me.

[Yushi]

I really love how kyoani handled this. (I didn't PLAY the game, but I watched the game ending on youtube). At first, I was worried that they would do do those TA DA! type of thing.... But instead, the feeling I got was...Tomoya worked hard for this miracle. Yes, he EARNED the miracle. It didn't occur out of the blue. He worked hard to make everyone happy, even his alternate self...so it was about time that HE got some happiness >=3
And I also found the character choice at the end very fitting because ...
Fuuko also experienced a 'miracle' first hand. The whole out of body experience thing lol. And her comment on the 'cute smell' made me feel that she somehow still remembers 'that' time frame. So it made sense that she could see Ushio in THAT form. =)

[Skullator]

Hearing the palm of a tiny hand (Chiisana te no hira) with lyrics was the highlight of the episode for me, must source .mp3!

Strong ending to a great show, 10/10.

[hai_san]

A Happy Ending!!!

Well i dont care even if it somehow mythical or fantasy or unrealitic like ending... supposely everything after ep 16 didnt happend at all.

I will give the whole serie a 10+/10, but for the last ep only 9.99999999 because i did not get Ushio(small) kawii voice to hear.

[cbatty]

AQS subs are out... woohoo

[babbsagg]

The contract with the town was paid in full, as that was what the mystery sickness is actually alluded to be. As Tomoya seems to have satisfied the Town's conditions, the sickness was dispelled. In short, it's gone Jim.

Could you define that contact? Who made it? Why? What were the conditions?

[Justin Kim]

T_T, preparing to watch the episode - hesitating to click, but based on the poll results - I am going to watch it, and hopefully see through the ending just fine.

[cbatty]

Perfect... loved the ending in every way... I cried like a baby during the montage. This has been an amazing journey and I am so happy to see the story come to such a wonderful conclusion.

[VRMN]

And, 22 at last unveils the whole kit 'n' caboodle. It happened pretty much as I expected it to, albeit with some additional material in the second half of the episode that I found enjoyable, though I would have preferred to see more interaction, but I've wanted that since I played through the visual novel.

That said, I'll try to sum up my thoughts here, for the most part raw and unedited, coming off watching the conclusion raw earlier tonight, though of course I knew the jist of what was to occur long before tonight. These are not thoughts on the series as a whole, which I plan on articulating, but not here and now (probably after 24 assuming there is a 24).

There are spoilers for the conclusion I'm not going to worry about censoring (subs are available; this is the episode thread) and you have been warned.

In short, yes, Key (and Jun Maeda and Kyoto Animation by extension) toyed with your emotions and it's honestly bad writing from a linear storytelling standpoint. But, it's important to note here that the idea that somehow everything was wiped away clean and didn't happen at all is a false one, though quite easy to fall into, though I think less so considering how this was presented by KyoAni, who I think did a fantastic job at adapting this work and indeed enhancing it. But to fully illustrate this, you have to understand the significance of the Illusionary World.

As was finally revealed during this episode, the girl who has been there from the very beginning has been Ushio, and the robot contained Tomoya's soul/light. From this we can infer that Ushio's soul is tied to the Illusionary World and has been from the beginning of where the story begins, way back, 46 episodes ago, at the bottom of a slope on a April morning. At this point, from the very, very beginning, there has been a universe in which Tomoya and Ushio died much in the same way they died near the end of episode 21 of After Story. The Illusionary World exists outside of time, but its genesis is there, in the closing moments of Ushio's life.

Now, we can fast forward a bit, past an awful lot, up until Nagisa starts drafting her play, the source of which she does not know, but is quite similar to those sequences of the Illusionary World. At the time, you'd probably be forgiven for thinking that it's perhaps Nagisa who is that girl in those sequences, but in retrospect we know better.

Nonetheless, this is the signal that Nagisa is also tied to the Illusionary World and has been from the very beginning as well. Sticking to the same arc, we get an indication as to why this might be, when Akio explains that Nagisa, falling ill, found herself close to death on a winter's day years ago, and because of Akio's pact with the city, Nagisa's life was spared. Nagisa gained a new chance at life from this, but was also tied to the town at this point, cursed, as it were, to live a life on borrowed time. Still, she is alive, and through this miracle, is eventually led to Tomoya Okazaki's side, first as friend, eventually as girlfriend, and finally as his wife.

Nonetheless, borrowed time is just that, temporary. Nagisa, tied to the changing town, finds herself suffering her yearly ailments at the same time as fate literally converges upon them and Ushio is born. The first time we go through this, Nagisa does not survive, but her bloodline does, and the curse, as it were, is transmitted to their child, just as tied to the city as Nagisa was. Ushio, too, is on borrowed time, which catches up to her as we see in the series. Still, because of Tomoya's actions, because he reconciled with his daughter and father, because of all of this, he gains two incalculably important things to the resolution of this series.

1) The happiness of his father.
2) The love of his daughter.

The former, going by the words of Yukine Miyazawa (episode 8 of After Story), obtaining an orb of light grants you a wish. Which is all well and good, but Tomoya doesn't realize he has the damn thing until after he's dead, so we have an issue. Which is where the latter comes in. Without the love of his daughter, without the events of the past arc, Ushio would have never built the robot for her father's soul to occupy. She would have never interacted with the world and communicated with her mother-to-be. She would have remained as alone as she would have been in that reality where Tomoya didn't care enough to be her father. It is because he embraced Ushio that he obtains the ability to use his second chance, to use his wish to grant him what he's wanted all along.

It wouldn't work any other way. Now, yes, you could remove the mysticism and optimism that has pervaded throughout Clannad and end the story with Ushio's fate catching up to her and Tomoya following her to the grave shortly thereafter. You could even cut out all that stuff, and let them end on the happy note of their reconciliation. But, in the end, the trials and tribulations that Tomoya suffers through are not for naught. He doesn't forget about them; he can't. In essence, he is granted a miracle because he himself has helped others to reach happiness, not the least of which was his own father.

Now, taking that stage, we have to think, Tomoya has been granted the ability to make the one thing he most desires. This is not just a revived Ushio. Nor is it a Nagisa who survives because she never met him.

It's a family.

One in which all three of them are a part.

Nothing else would make sense from his perspective. Nothing else would work as well as the conclusion to this unfalteringly optimistic story. No, it's not realistic. But it's not intended to be as such either. As the conclusion for characters who inhabit a world in which miracles are possible and are the result of helping others find happiness, however, it works.

Sappy, cheesy, melodramatic writing designed to invoke strong emotions from its audience? Undoubtedly, yes. It has no basis in reality, neither this story nor this series' incessantly optimistic worldview.

But, at the same time, they connected with me. Very few stories accomplish that. I may just not be jaded or cynical enough, though I am enough so that I am quite aware that I'm being manipulated. And, in the end, emotions created by fiction are by their very nature manipulated. So, all I can really say to Key and KyoAni is that they succeeded.

They got me to care. And for that, I have to give them credit.

[Angela Sanctisstessa]

Woot, a grown up Mei <3 <3 <3

[MeoTwister5]

*Snippity Snip*

And in my case, after rewatching the episode with subs, I tried doing away with whatever preconceived notions of form, theme, life lessons, adherence to reality and rational analysis I has when I first saw. At this point I realized something.

Nagisa is alive. Ushio is alive. Tomoya has his family back. By whatever means or ends, the 3 of them can finally enjoy the happiness they have long struggled to find. The happiness they have long deserved.

And at the end of the day, THAT'S what's important.:):):)

[alu546]

They showed everything everyone wanted to see. Ill admit its a cute ending, but to me it was totally anticlimatic after nagisa woke up.

You could have skipped episodes 17-21 and really not have missed a thing, which left me a litle dissappointed. Then they just unload on the fantasy aspects (way more than usual) to sorta give a vague reason for a dues ex machina ending.

It certainly is a happy ending, but it wasnt a good ending to me, and killed the latter half of season two's rewatchability.

4/10 for this episode, but not for the series as a whole.

I would recommend watching the Clannad Movie to see the kind of ending that wouldve suited this series better (atleast in my mind).

Thats just my opinion though.

[Sheba]

*hugetext*

Tears were shed.

[SaintessHeart]

This is a pretty wtf ending. But I still find it nice, though the part about Fuuko and Kouko is to repetitive. Is it a filler?

And lol at the sight when Fuuko finds Ushio. She is lying on the grass in her grownup form.

Chiisana Tenohira is nice.

[Sheba]

the part about Fuuko and Kouko is to repetitive. Is it a filler?

And lol at the sight when Fuuko finds Ushio. She is lying on the grass in her grownup form.
.

It was in the original game.

[Myssa Rei]

Could you define that contact? Who made it? Why? What were the conditions?

Akio made a deal with the town so that Nagisa would survive. It is assumed that the contract was the thing that was keeping her sick; the town was paying back Akio's wish to keep her alive, but with dividends. Hence the fact that Ushio suddenly was sick as wel -- the TOWN didn't consider Nagisa's life payment enough.

[SuperKnuckles]

I thought it was a lovely good ending, but the good old KEY DEUS EX is back!

And I'm not sure I like it. For one, nothing about the other world was really explained. It's just... THERE and it grants wishes.... ooookaaayyy.

And for some reason, everything teleports back, Star Trek style and it's all fine and dandy now.

If the animation studio (or the game developers) had any backbone, they'd end this episode on a funeral. :heh:

[Tiberium Wolf]

I can't believe it Fuuko ninja'd 1/3 of the ep.

Anyway if ppl wanted realism then don't go watch anime. You know the laws of anime so you know the drill.
You don't like the ending and don't like Maeda writing. Oh well... Lot of ppl like it and the story is sellable so it's considered good. What can't not be sold will always be forgotten.

BTW, can anyone tell the song name they used at mid ep before Fuuko appearance?

[bladeofdarkness]

why are so many people feeling down about the fact it had a happy ending ?
i loved the ending
after all the shit that happend to the characters they deserved a happy ending
if i want a super downer ending anime i would just watch saikano again

[cbatty]

And in my case, after rewatching the episode with subs, I tried doing away with whatever preconceived notions of form, theme, life lessons, adherence to reality and rational analysis I has when I first saw. At this point I realized something.

Nagisa is alive. Ushio is alive. Tomoya has his family back. By whatever means or ends, the 3 of them can finally enjoy the happiness they have long struggled to find. The happiness they have long deserved.

And at the end of the day, THAT'S what's important.:):):)

Yeah - well said. Overall, that's why I loved this episode so much.

[Nina.Wolken]

I only gave the ending an 8. Ithought it was a very nice one, but it may have been done in a better way.
As much as I love Fuuko, I thought her part at the end was a bit too long. It may be due to the fact that I didn't fully understand her role though :heh:.

Well, I will miss the serie... and Kotomi-chan u_u'. I would have love to see more of her...

[DJLowrider]

I'm a total sucker for happy endings, so this gets a 10 out of me.

It's an extremely rare thing for a story of any kind to resonate with me on a level I can honestly relate to. The last such story was the movie Big Fish, from which I drew several parallels to my relationship with my own father. I found it to be a terrific movie and it holds a special place among my movie recommendations.

I've been watching anime now for more than half my life (got into it when I was 15) and while it's been a fun ride so far I really haven't found any stories within anime that really got to me until I found Clannad and Clannad ~After Story~. As I've said in my thoughts a few episodes ago, I'm a father myself of two wonderful kids. I have an amazing wife who I love to no end and who loves me back. I was raised to believe that two things matter above everything else in life: family and friends. Watching Tomoya's journey from being a self-absorbed delinquent to the man he became thanks to the support of his friends and loves ones has been an affirmation of my belief in the importance of these things.

To be sure, he got to his destination the hard way, and for a while there he did lose sight of the goal. No one is perfect, though, and we all waver from time to time. The true measure of any person is how they face adversity. In spite of all the hardship he faced, Tomoya did come around and re-dedicated himself to his family even if it means a life without Nagisa at his side. In spite of his own perceptions of his father, he found it in his heart to forgive him his indiscretions and help him find happiness as well. That all speaks to a strength of character that you simply will not find in a lead character in most stories, be they on paper or on the screen, live action or animated.

Ultimately, though, no one can live being 100% magnanimous. You have to want something for yourself as well in life. For a long time, Tomoya didn't seem to want to let himself be happy. To an extent I believe he thought that happiness was simply something he was not meant to have so he decided to make others' happiness his own. That just doesn't work, though. If you don't want anything, you never change. If you don't change you don't grow, and as Nagisa said at the very beginning nothing can stay the same way forever. Not even Tomoya's own misery, which he ended himself when he admitted how important Nagisa was to him. When he called out her name it was with such passion that it shook me.

It is rather fitting (and even perhaps a little ironic in a way) that allowing himself that moment of happiness is what saved not only his own life but that of Nagisa and Ushio as well. But then it's also bringing things full circle. Both Nagisa and Ushio saved Tomoya from a bleak, solitary, meandering, meaningless life, after all. I think that's how most guys who get married and have families feel about their wives and children, at least I know that's how I feel. And while I don't come from the same background or go through the same trials in life as Tomoya, it's a message I get loud and clear.

Kudos to KyoAni for also presenting the ending in a way that can be construed as being either completely mystical or completely not. The sudden jump back in time to Ushio's birth leaves things at least somewhat open to interpretation. Did Tomoya really go through all that hardship and then wish for a different life, or was it all simply just a nightmarish hallucination as Nagisa lay there laboring to deliver their child? I'm sure most fans of the series, especially those who played the game, will say it was the former. I, however, am completely comfortable looking at it either way. I suppose it depends on your own feelings about the supernatural as to which perspective feels more right, so to each his or her own.

As for the Fuko ending...let's be honest, we all wanted to see a little more Fuko before the very end. She is rather cute, after all. A bit touched (and by "touched" I mean "bludgeoned with a ball peen hammer"), but cute. :heh:

Now I will sit back, enjoy whatever extra bits we get in episode 23, wonder if episode 24 will be another DVD-only thing (please more Kyou oh please oh please oh please) and hope that the rumors of a Tomoyo After movie are for real.

[MeoTwister5]

Yeah - well said. Overall, that's why I loved this episode so much.

I still gave the episode an 8, at least from a technical perspective.

[Fishman]

Why is everybody saying this is a happy ending? If this is all a hallucination(as i assume it is because of the incoherence in the episode) then nothing is solved, the last scene with Fuuko finding Ushio can be seen as the result of Tomoya dropping Ushio's corpse under the tree and then commiting suicide, why is everyone assuming a happy ending when nothing was made clear this episode? I think my interpretation is way better, screw dues ex machina.

[Moogster]

I have a question about Tomoyo.

Why does she look sad in the montage? Did something happen to her in the visual novel or something? Even in the opening song of After Story she looks quite sad.

[MeoTwister5]

I have a question about Tomoyo.

Why does she look sad in the montage? Did something happen to her in the visual novel or something? Even in the opening song of After Story she looks quite sad.

I'd assume that's more like a look of reflection rather than a sad one.

[hydropod]

I have a question about Tomoyo.

Why does she look sad in the montage? Did something happen to her in the visual novel or something? Even in the opening song of After Story she looks quite sad.

Its almost same as one of the game CGs from Tomoyo After.... Even the clothes are the same.....

[rapidfire]

At the end showing all the characters:
Who was the girl with long flowing brown hair?
Who were the 2 girls coming from the appartment? I didnt see them once in the anime besides the ending credits.
I noticed they didnt show Tomoyas dad, but lets assume that got resolved in this new 'present'
Where was Tomoyo in all that???
Can anyone help?

I loved Mei's and Kotomi's the most, they looked really kewl xDDD

[Jimmy C]

the last scene with Fuuko finding Ushio can be seen as the result of Tomoya dropping Ushio's corpse under the tree and then commiting suicide,

Ushio is quite clearly breathing in that scene. Therefore that interpetation is wrong.

I think my interpretation is way better, screw dues ex machina.

If that's how you want it, fine. But I, and many others it seems, prefer an ending on a more upbeat note. Makes it easier to rewatch in the future. Compare to Air for example, emotional and has that "realism" you want so badly, but it's so painful, you hardly want to watch it ever again.

Who was the girl with long flowing brown hair?
Who were the 2 girls coming from the appartment? I didnt see them once in the anime besides the ending credits.

Assuming you're talking about the scene before Yuusuke playing the guitar. The girl with the "brown" hair is Tomoyo.
The two girls are Rie and Sugisaka, formerly of the Choir Club and Nagisa's coworkers at the family restaurant.
And I agree that overlooking Tomoya's dad was the only misstep in this ep.

[hydropod]

Well...
At the end showing all the characters:

Who was the girl with long flowing brown hair?

That is Tomoyo......

Who were the 2 girls coming from the appartment? I didnt see them once in the anime besides the ending credits.

Vocal Club... ring a bell?

I noticed they didnt show Tomoyas dad, but lets assume that got resolved in this
new 'present'

"CG" of Nayuki holding Tomoya's hand...

Where was Tomoyo in all that???

See above...
= =

[Fishman]

Ushio is quite clearly breathing in that scene. Therefore that interpetation is wrong.

or perhaps air escaping from her corpse?

[MeoTwister5]

Air does not "Escape" from a corpse...:eyebrow:

[Marina2]

At the end showing all the characters:
Who was the girl with long flowing brown hair?
Who were the 2 girls coming from the appartment? I didnt see them once in the anime besides the ending credits.
I noticed they didnt show Tomoyas dad, but lets assume that got resolved in this new 'present'
Where was Tomoyo in all that???
Can anyone help?

I loved Mei's and Kotomi's the most, they looked really kewl xDDD


You sure have to try to remember side characters.......T_T

Who were the 2 girls coming from the appartment? I didnt see them once in the anime besides the ending credits.
- They are Nishina Rie and someone that I can't remember her name, they appeared a lot in the first season (Do you remember people from another culb that come to help Nagisa picked music?) and in second season, they worked at maid cafe where Nagisa did her job there. (CLANNAD After Story ep.14)

[MeoTwister5]

I was actually wondering why those two were even included in the final montage when they weren't even characters needed for the light orbs... at least in the original.

[hydropod]

I was actually wondering why those two were even included in the final montage when they weren't even characters needed for the light orbs... at least in the original.

I guess since a certain Kappei got shafted they have to find someone else for that "orb"?

[Fishman]

Air does not "Escape" from a corpse...:eyebrow:

I see you missed my point, the episode is so ambiguous that any interpretation is fine. Episodes 21 and 22 are both final episodes, alternative endings, pick which one you like and move on.

[DJLowrider]

I see you missed my point, the episode is so ambiguous that any interpretation is fine. Episodes 22 and 23 are both final episodes, alternative endings, pick which one you like and move on.

22 is the end of the series, stated both by the title which notes it as the final episode and by the big "owari" kanji after the Fuko sequence. The only ambiguity is whether you believe it to be a mystical ending or not.

If I had to wager a guess, 23 is actually going to be episode 1 of Clannad only told from Nagisa's POV instead of Tomoya's.

Finally, you can quit the trolling/flamebaiting anytime now. I give you a 2/10 for your efforts, but only because it's a Friday and I'm feeling generous. :cool:

[Ascaloth]

Episode 22 article is up:

[RIUVA] CLANNAD ~After Story~, Episode 22 (http://www.riuva.com/?p=1388)

Beautiful ending. Much in the manner of the portrayal of the characters and themes of the story; flawed, but beautifully so. 9/10.

[Wandering_Youth]

Heh, as soon as the episode showed me that all the tragedies that befell Tomoyo were not real. I knew right away that a lot of viewers are going to start complaining that they felt cheated in some sort of way and it's true. :heh:

Me? I enjoyed the ending. The fact that the tragedies that were shown to me of a "what would happened" to Tomoyo Tomoya is still permanently stuck in my head. I was truly wowed in the past episodes with what happened to Nagisa and Ushio. It was so sad! With that being said, after finally finding out the ending, I became really happy that wife and daughter are still with Tomoyo Tomoya.

[Narzia]

Started good. The first insert song fit perfectly. The second, while beautiful, was somehow wasted though.. could've been better.

There was barely any emotion.. even though it was a happy ending. All i felt was just "Uh.. that's it?" Not because of the arguable plot, but because of lack of emotion. I wasn't sad.. i wasn't happy... it was just nothing. Except the first part of the episode it was "oh well.." all the way to the ridiculous Fuuko ending.

And why only show the grandmother? I wanted to see Tomoya's dad one last time, smiling and with opened eyes. :/

[Sheba]

And I'm not sure I like it. For one, nothing about the other world was really explained. It's just... THERE and it grants wishes.... ooookaaayyy.

And for some reason, everything teleports back, Star Trek style and it's all fine and dandy now.



I thought that it was explained a little a few post above yours. (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=2269802&postcount=152)

[Tatiana Razajev]

As for the Fuko ending...let's be honest, we all wanted to see a little more Fuko before the very end. She is rather cute, after all. A bit touched (and by "touched" I mean "bludgeoned with a ball peen hammer"), but cute. :heh:.

She's my favorite character in the series. Thus it's a given that I was very happy to see her again. At one point I actually gave up hope of seeing her again. Yeah, I grew impatient. Regardless, having her in episode 22 is just good for me.

That being said, I'm also happy with the way the Nagisa, Ushio, and Tomoya stuff played out. I found it quite effective and very fitting. Fitting in terms of what happened before and the various clues the series left that sort of foreshadowed the ending.

I noticed some people have been bringing up My HiME, so I'll state that just for the record I liked the way it ended as well. Granted, I think it could have used at least one or two more episodes to flesh out the ending, but I think the path they took fitted the theme of that series in my view.

In general, I'm not against miracles happening. It just depends on how the miracle is handled. Also as much as people gripe about Deus Ex Machina, it amazes me how people are often perfectly fine with I like to call Diablos Ex Machina.

[Fishman]

22 is the end of the series, stated both by the title which notes it as the final episode and by the big "owari" kanji after the Fuko sequence. The only ambiguity is whether you believe it to be a mystical ending or not.

If I had to wager a guess, 23 is actually going to be episode 1 of Clannad only told from Nagisa's POV instead of Tomoya's.

Finally, you can quit the trolling/flamebaiting anytime now. I give you a 2/10 for your efforts, but only because it's a Friday and I'm feeling generous. :cool:

I meant episode 21 and 22, my bad, and how is it not ambiguous? Just because it says final has nothing to do with the story of Clannad. We see Ushio and Tomoya in the snow-world as it is disappears and then we see Tomoya travel back in time except it isn't back in time because Nagisa knows it's Tomoya and right after that we hear two voices say "ahh...it ends now. This long, long journey" which means Tomoya and Ushio became the orbs and are imaging that perfect ending we saw, or like I said you can believe that everybody has been resurrected, it doesn't make a difference to me, just don't fill in the blanks, and slight people that think autonomously. The writers of the story gave us the choice to end it how we see fit.

[panzerfan]

I agree with VRMN about how that emotions were used as playthings for Maeda Jun. Having said that, Key made itself a decent myth based on the realities behind the nucleus and the extended family, and from the perspective of eliciting an emotional response it succedded brilliantly. Whereas the actual flow of events can become questionable by the end, while realism went to the dogs and the audience will have to live with it.

Now, I would strongly hold against having dead set an end to Clannad. The story's messages by 21 should be pretty evident to most viewers (unless if you're completely self-absorbed with what could've been and what should be for Tomoya) on family and the surrounding people. Anything outside of this scope becomes an interpretation of that central theme, episode 22 not being an exception, ultimately leaving it to the audience on whether or not if one should ever close the book on the subject matter.

Fishman talking about Tomoya committing suicide certainly is valid, but then you'd have to get to the (un)pleasantries of the aftermath of that. It's rather not tactful and I think would ran foul in the mouth of some people just as this ending ran foul in the mouth of people that would favor more realistic approach. There is no appeasement of both sides. You'd be spoon fed melodrama if someone shows the elderly burying the youth and pondering about moving on next, the then the question of who to narrate the story will rear its ugly head at that point.

A thing that is rather dangerous is to equate Kyoani to Key. One of my gripe with some reviewers is that they see more to KyoAni's part than just being a producer/director working off an original script so that their criticisms are seemingly pointed only at one point. If criticisms need to be handed, a wider breath should be demanded of if the said reviewer demands for wider breath in those critiques, or you'll end up in self-contradiction now wouldn't you?

Myssa_Rei raised a point about the town paying dividend... but the problem is, the debtor itself is inexplicably linked to the effects of change. It shouldn't be shocking to anyone that the development of the town poses environmental prices that are paid, and given the Japanese concept of natural deities, the town in this case, is very much an organic, conscious entity. This brings to the question of how the Japanese view their relationship with their environment and how does the environment affect people in turn. Clannad is not the only piece of work that hints to this underlaying relationship, but it certainly invests heavily in this undertone.

To clarify, and by this point it's not a spoiler, episode 23 is pre-clannad chronology wise. It takes place 1 year before Tomoya and Nagisa's meeting over the foot of the hill.

[Yumii-chan]

great ending 10/10. I cried ALOT :p Clannad have been an awsome anime

[DJLowrider]

I meant episode 21 and 22, my bad, and how is it not ambiguous? Just because it says final has nothing to do with the story of Clannad. We see Ushio and Tomoya in the snow-world as it is disappears and then we see Tomoya travel back in time except it isn't back in time because Nagisa knows it's Tomoya and right after that we hear two voices say "ahh...it ends now. This long, long journey" which means Tomoya and Ushio became the orbs and are imaging that perfect ending we saw, or like I said you can believe that everybody has been resurrected, it doesn't make a difference to me, just don't fill in the blanks, and slight people that think autonomously. The writers of the story gave us the choice to end it how we see fit.

See, this makes a fair bit more sense now that you've actually explained your perspective. At first you seemed to be rather combative about it, at least that's the vibe I got.

For the sake of following your thought process here, you're right. 21 or 22 could be seen as the story's ending. To an extent it really depends on how much tolerance you have for the supernatural elements we were presented with throughout the series (ie. Kotomi's theory of multiple worlds, light orbs representing happiness, wishes, etc.) If you're not a fan of such Deus ex Machina, then the "rocks fall everyone dies" ending is probably your cup of tea.

Regardless, whichever ending one prefers is an entirely subjective matter. To be sure, anyone's insistence of one ending being the "True End" over the other is a matter of personal taste and can hardly be taken as anything more than an opinion. I can appreciate a preference for a not-so-happy ending, I myself quite liked the ending to Gurren Lagann despite it not being a necessarily happy one. However, in this instance I will profess to quite liking the happy ending version, but as I detailed in my own review of this episode, I have my own reasons for that that have nothing to do with fanboyism of Key, KyoAni or this series.

Given such an open perspective on the series' ending I would be about the last person to insist any one ending is any better or more right than the other. Indeed, according to the Multiple Worlds theory really any ending is acceptable, be it "good" or "bad".

Now all that said, please do look back at your original post in this thread:

Why is everybody saying this is a happy ending? If this is all a hallucination(as i assume it is because of the incoherence in the episode) then nothing is solved, the last scene with Fuuko finding Ushio can be seen as the result of Tomoya dropping Ushio's corpse under the tree and then commiting suicide, why is everyone assuming a happy ending when nothing was made clear this episode? I think my interpretation is way better, screw dues ex machina.

Now you tell me, who's the one slighting others over their interpretation of the series' ending?

Edit:

To clarify, and by this point it's not a spoiler, episode 23 is pre-clannad chronology wise. It takes place 1 year before Tomoya and Nagisa's meeting over the foot of the hill.

Ah, that makes sense. Now that I think about it, Nagisa's hair was a bit shorter than I remember it. Plus she was talking about her second year of high school as I remember.

[ShimatheKat]

Heh, as soon as the episode showed me that all the tragedies that befell Tomoyo were not real. I knew right away that a lot of viewers are going to start complaining that they felt cheated in some sort of way and it's true. :heh:

Me? I enjoyed the ending. The fact that the tragedies that were shown to me of a "what would happened" to Tomoyo is still permanently stuck in my head. I was truly wowed in the past episodes with what happened to Nagisa and Ushio. It was so sad! With that being said, after finally finding out the ending, I became really happy that wife and daughter are still with Tomoyo.

LOL How does one mistake TomoYA for TomoYO? Heck, this is like the biggest mix-up among my foreign friends watching CLANNAD too. But really, Tomoyo still looks hawt. But we can all now add Mei to the list too.


A thing that is rather dangerous is to equate Kyoani to Key. One of my gripe with some reviewers is that they see more to KyoAni's part than just being a producer/director working off an original script so that their criticisms are seemingly pointed only at one point. If criticisms need to be handed, a wider breath should be demanded of if the said reviewer demands for wider breath in those critiques, or you'll end up in self-contradiction now wouldn't you?

You know, their close working relationship has ever led me to ask if one day, such a thing could happen, where Kyoani and Key merge.

[jenthehen]

Episode was absolutely beautiful, but ... it didn't make any darn sense. The deux ex machina - it hurts!! And I usually love that type of ending.

I was really expecting for Nagisa to "save" Ushio ... not ... time machine magical warp!

It was very pretty to look at, though ... and happy.

I have always disliked Fuuko's character, though, so the ending was kind of blah. She's just so darn annoying. I liked all the images used that have been used in the openings, though. Nice tough.

[Fishman]

Now you tell me, who's the one slighting others over their interpretation of the series' ending?


I was mostly talking of my hatred toward the dues ex machina ending and how it is indicative of bad writing, but I see how it was disparaging, sorry.

[Jimmy C]

Merger probably not going to happen. But it would be interesting if Key contracts KyoAni to do some animated cutscenes for them. However, I believe Key can do their own animations, right?

[Ottocycle]

You know, their close working relationship has ever led me to ask if one day, such a thing could happen, where Kyoani and Key merge.
What if Toei and Key merge then? :p

[jery626]

It's a good thing that I woke up from a nightmare... I did wonder how they will end the season with the previous episode though... Oh well it would still be a good season for me either way...

[Yukinokesshou]

Did anyone notice that Nagisa's singing has improved? :p
Compare her rendition of "Dango" in this episode to that in Episode 7 of Season 1 (the Dango vs. Starfish competition).

[MeoTwister5]

After my finals end I'm gonna do something I probably shouldn't do.

Watch all episodes of both seasons in succession.:uhoh:

[DJLowrider]

After my finals end I'm gonna do something I probably shouldn't do.

Watch all episodes of both seasons in succession.:uhoh:

Make sure to head to your local warehouse-style store and buy a pallet of tissues then. I recommend Puffs brand, they're much easier on the nose.

[D-KLAC]

alright i seen it & yet this said it all "Do you believe in miracles?"

[PNGO]

Well happy ending, but this is what I was complaining about, a REALLY unrealistic ending. I mean it's awesome to cheat all the problems you have and just go back in time and fix it all? I was hoping for a miracle where they save Ushio or something, but no they had to go back in time, I mean wtf...
The overrall episode was average, beautiful animation, but every other thing was average. And comon that Fukko ending was lame.

[Nosauz]

I really don't get how people don't see the Illusory world as being explained. They made it pretty damn clear what it was. I felt like even though whne the girl says papa at the end is meant to draw an emotion of sadness, I still felt like I was being clubbed with the answer. They really didn't pussyfoot around this issue as the game did. I mean my expectations for this show was based on a coma girl whos spirit is corporeal at school where people can see her as one set in a world similar to ours but also has mystical undertones. I really don't see how people are getting blind sided by the Illusory world, I mean it's pretty evident throughout the entire series and then they explain it in a way that makes it quite easy to understand.

One freaking gripe, I don't know why but the live footage with the glow didn't piss me off as much as it has in the past. I usually find it extremely cheesy yet this time it realy didn't grate on me, it was probably the use of the blurring actual after touches to the film. I mean I still found it somewhat out of place, especially with the story revolving around the mysticism, the art style did match pretty well, but if it had been animated it would have connected better.

[kamikazex]

WOW. WHAT?!!! A DREAM?!! great past 5 episodes was a dream. wasnt expecting that

[aquastar831]

I did get to watch the episode streaming before we got the raws for this ep. I'm really happy with how they wrapped up this series. After everything that we saw happen, I was thinking, "Oh pleeeease give us a happy ending!" I did like how this was approached with a "frozen in time" moment and basically the choice that Tomoya makes at that moment about Nagisa is his.

I figured people would like the epilogues for everyone, especially Kotomi and Mei. Both looking very stylish and cool. But Tomoyo still remains my favorite, with Nagisa a close second.

I was wondering in the first season who the girl was that was walking in the forest (OP sequence Mag Mell), since they blurred it and we couldn't see her very well.

Looks like there's some extra episodes coming up, with the ep 23 pre-story of the series, and I'm going to guess another DVD exclusive episode since there are 8 volumes planned for the release.

[PNGO]

WOW. WHAT?!!! A DREAM?!! great past 5 episodes was a dream. wasnt expecting that

Shhh the story actually only has 17 episodes, those last 5 episodes were fillers, or just a dream like you said.

[Myssa Rei]

Myssa_Rei raised a point about the town paying dividend... but the problem is, the debtor itself is inexplicably linked to the effects of change. It shouldn't be shocking to anyone that the development of the town poses environmental prices that are paid, and given the Japanese concept of natural deities, the town in this case, is very much an organic, conscious entity. This brings to the question of how the Japanese view their relationship with their environment and how does the environment affect people in turn. Clannad is not the only piece of work that hints to this underlaying relationship, but it certainly invests heavily in this undertone.

The thing is about the TOWN is the price it seemed to ask is not proportionate to what it gives back in return. In fact, given what we've seen, you get the feeling that the Town not only has a capricious personality, it also has a NASTY sense of humor. In one case it appeared benevolent -- Akio asked for Nagisa to be saved but in the process, her life was tied to the place where Akio went to ask for that miracle; when that changed, Nagisa got ill. In another, we had Tomoya, who essentially was emotionally ground into the dirt (and then some), all because he REPEATEDLY said he HATED the Town.

[Game8910]

It was an ok ending, I liked it more in the VN for some reason. I kinda expected too much from this show I guess....7/10 for this episode

Overall I liked this season more...9/10 should do it

[shinwa]

what a huge time-shift-replay and... *throw the logic out of window*
well, the ending is kind of expected one, KyoAni faithfully follow the original story...

lol at Fuuko... "ecchi desu!~" she conquered almost half of this episode...

[jdlkem]

A few things.

Having played the novel, I have found this ending to be an outstanding one. The visual novel's ending seemed too abrupt in several ways, whereas this episode really gave justice to many things, by virtue of explanation and by virtue of the medium. I give this episode a 10/10 because of the artistry of this ending (visuals, dialogue, music, timing).

Overall, I thought the series was incredible (so far!). Great artistry from KyoAni, as expected, some great music, although the ED really threw me off a few times, and great character. I could really understand the actions each character took given the situations presented (minus Fuuko lol). I would give this a 9/10, but if we get some purple-colored hair action, that would bring it to a 9.5 or even a 10.

Some artistic and interpretive comments.

I really found it interesting that snow was chosen as the emotional metaphor. Literary interpretations usually suggest that snow represents bleakness, death, hopelessness, etc. Here, it was presented as such. When Nagisa gave birth, it snowed. When Tomoya took his daughter on a walk, it just started snowing and quickly piled up. In each case, a member of his family passes away. Furthermore, it snows in the illusionary world, which causes both the "girl" and the "robot" to die/become destroyed. Snow binds the protagonist in every sense of the literary meaning to this impending fate.

In this episode, however, the lights that have been talked about finally arise from the town and put an end to the blizzard. Light, as a representation of hope and renewal, is used to represent this new beginning for Tomoya, after having suffered such an awful history from the two (three) significant deaths. I find it beautiful how these symbols are used in this anime, a significant reason why I find this show endearing.

Here is my explanation to the relationship between the illusionary world and the real world, and why Tomoya, after his destruction in the illusionary world, arrives at the time of his child's birth. His growing compassion towards the town in which he lives.

Clannad, as almost all of us know, is the word for family. Why would this title be chosen, of all of the many different possible titles that could have been chosen? A good title should indicate what the following substance contains, and yes, it is clearly with the ties within a family. Tomoyo and her brother had conflicts with their parents. Kyou and Ryou had their own issues (which *hopefully* should be dealt with eventually), related to the conflicting interests between them, between family members. Kotomi had to struggle with the sudden loss of her family. Fuuko, even as a supernatural "spirit", had to support her sister, who was too concerned about her younger sister that she prioritized Fuuko over her own personal life. Nagisa has her own health to deal with, which was (partially) caused by and made significant changes to her parents. Our protagonist had (obviously) major issues with his father. Almost all of the characters have major issues tied deeply by the ties between family members. However, in every heroine's route (minus the possible exception of Tomoyo's route), there is a deep change in these ties from interacting with the protagonist, most notably in Nagisa's route. How these changes arise is not due to familial values, but by compassion itself.

Tomoya is first presented as a sarcastic, uncaring, and uncompassionate student. Tomoya’s first line (as a human) is “I hate this town.” He states it affirmatively, unyielding to change that opinion. However, his opinion of the town changes slowly towards the better through his interactions with the people in the anime (or visual novel). When he finally marries Nagisa, he has clearly found happiness; however, when Nagisa becomes sick during her pregnancy, Tomoya begins to revert to his pessimistic views. In the anime, after Nagisa passes away, he states, “We should never have met.” And yet he soon becomes compassionate once again after confessing his “wrongdoings” to his daughter. The connection between him and his daughter is undoubtedly extremely important.

Tomoya’s visits to the illusionary world are prophetic dreams of his future: hints at an impending doom. It is as though someone is testing him through a tough ordeal. And misfortune does fall upon him. Nagisa passes away, and only a few years later, his only child dies in his hands. His only choice is to escape into the illusionary world, where there remains hope, albeit an inkling. However, the one girl dies (Ushio dies again…) to rise again as the consciousness of the illusionary world. In a strange way, this seems to me an allusion to Jesus Christ in that he gives his followers a chance.

John 3:16. “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son [Jesus], that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

It is interesting that the roles are twisted: Ushio becomes the consciousness of the illusionary world and thus is granted its powers (the existence of the lights), and in doing so, she gives Tomoya a second chance. Note that if Tomoya remained his inconsiderate self, Ushio would probably not give herself up to save her father.

The real question that arises is what is the purpose of the episodes 16-21? This is the time from when Nagisa dies to when Ushio dies. It shows both the protagonist as well as us, the viewers, what is ahead for Tomoya, and thus leaves him to choose between regret and acceptance: regret for having met Nagisa and undergoing the accompanying pain, or acceptance of his love for her and the ordeals that follow. This reminds me very much of HanTsuki in that the protagonist has to choose whether it is worth loving her or not to him personally. Thus, this ending is by no means a simple Deus Ex Machina, but a very complicated and a very human one – Tomoya will suffer either way.

By accepting his love for Nagisa even after taking account of the ensuing suffering, Tomoya’s compassion towards Nagisa, and the town, prompts the lights to grant him a miracle. I believe it is a very complex ending by this account, although it is easy to misinterpret as a simple cop-out to revive everyone.

lol i wonder if this is intelligible...i'll edit later



EDIT:
Reasons why Fuuko rightfully deserves ~6 min of screen time:
1. To even out appearance times lol
2. Cuz she's awesome.
3. Fuuko, just like Ushio, has been in her own "illusionary world" before, just not necessarily in an "illusionary" place. It just so happens that she was an illusion of sorts in the real world, affecting others. We can easily brush her off as annoying and such, but she really carries an extremely important role of being similar to Ushio. Furthermore, Fuuko seems to understand this similarity as well. The illusionary world version of Ushio flashes by as Fuuko asks for her friendship. There would be no reason for this Ushio to appear otherwise on screen.

[panzerfan]

The thing is about the TOWN is the price it seemed to ask is not proportionate to what it gives back in return. In fact, given what we've seen, you get the feeling that the Town not only has a capricious personality, it also has a NASTY sense of humor. In one case it appeared benevolent -- Akio asked for Nagisa to be saved but in the process, her life was tied to the place where Akio went to ask for that miracle; when that changed, Nagisa got ill. In another, we had Tomoya, who essentially was emotionally ground into the dirt (and then some), all because he REPEATEDLY said he HATED the Town.

Arguably however, the people also asked disproportional returns on the town. For the sake of convenience, the population overall demolishes forests to claim things such as family restaurant and shopping mall (revenue generator) as well as the hospital. It's with wicked sense of humor that people say that it's for human progress if you look at it from the perspective of land as a deity. It may be benevolent to declare certain area to be park land, but wouldn't that be lip service? Therefore, there's just as many reasons for the town, if it's organic to hate the people, for having sapped its strength to do anything to help those that it wanted to help in the first place such as Nagisa and subsequently Ushio.

Isn't perspective an interesting thing?

[Deathkillz]

Started good. The first insert song fit perfectly. The second, while beautiful, was somehow wasted though.. could've been better.

There was barely any emotion.. even though it was a happy ending. All i felt was just "Uh.. that's it?" Not because of the arguable plot, but because of lack of emotion. I wasn't sad.. i wasn't happy... it was just nothing. Except the first part of the episode it was "oh well.." all the way to the ridiculous Fuuko ending.

And why only show the grandmother? I wanted to see Tomoya's dad one last time, smiling and with opened eyes. :/
Oh-ho, someone with exactly the same thoughts as me on this final episode.

Since there was so much buildup and questions being asked about the "other world", I find it disappointing that they simply gave such a brief answer to everyone's problems then "al la hole" magically revives Nagisa so she doesn't end up dying. It was as if all that buildup was lead to nothing as they simply said "here you are" to the whole ordeal...it kinda feels like I was cheated on something that should have been a lot more powerful.

And don't even mention the fuuko bit...what a pointless use of time, I would have preferred if the episode just ended with the second insert song.

Interestingly Tomoya went from hating the town to loving it now...

Well, at least we had short scenes of the other characters before saying goodbye...bye Tomoyo and Kyou :sad:

[Ithekro]

I would point out for those that believe Ushio is dead at the end after her father's death (implying Fuuko found the body), that Ushio:
A. Is breathing.
B. It is summer, thus she would have been dead for several mouths at this point if she had died in winter.
C. Is wearing her summer school uniform. She and Tomoya were in winter clothing at the end of 21.
D. Fuuko is a weird person who can follow a cute scent and has had her own out of body experiance.

[kyomagi]

All i have to say is...

I called it, i told you all in the spoilers thread he was going to wake from a dream like state.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=2243038&postcount=1487

not spot on but i did call it

[escimo]

-We can't do this everyone will hate us, we need to come up with something else.
-Can we redo the ep20 end and ep21?
-Nope, we got about 5yen left.
-Sh**!
*long pause*
-How's this?
-That might work.
-Ahem, I don't think we can get more than 15 minutes of animation out of this...
*pause*
-Hey, you remember those Fuuko outtakes?
-Yeah, what about them?
-We just redo the audio like so ...
-That's great, I think we can squeeze that into budget.

It wasn't quite as disappointing that I expected but came really close...
Felt really forced.

Sucks how they managed to spoil a brilliant show right in the end.

[Nosauz]

-We can't do this everyone will hate us, we need to come up with something else.
-Can we redo the ep20 end and ep21?
-Nope, we got about 5yen left.
-Sh**!
*long pause*
-How's this?
-That might work.
-Ahem, I don't think we can get more than 15 minutes of animation out of this...
*pause*
-Hey, you remember those Fuuko outtakes?
-Yeah, what about them?
-We just redo the audio like so ...
-That's great, I think we can squeeze that into budget.

It wasn't quite as disappointing that I expected but came really close...
Felt really forced.

Sucks how they managed to spoil a brilliant show right in the end.

Really??? You think that was how it was? Sigh... go play the VN then think about what you wrote. Kyoani did nothing to the script, they just x'd some stuff and extended some scenes, all they did was follow what Key had provided them. If you don't know how this shit is made but go spout off like you do. I just find that those who haven't played the VN just don't seem to appreciate what this episode did but hey at least be familiar with what your about to talk about. I mean really it wasn't a damn dream... but then again w/e people will think what they want and I'm done defending the show, take it for what it is, this is not supposed to be realistic and if you continue to view at as such your just gonna ruin an excellecnt show. Really its like saying don quixote is sane when HE CLEARLY IS FUXED IN THE BRAIN. Projecting what you want the show to be and what the show really is does only disservices to the show, but hey whatever.

[escimo]

Really??? You think that was how it was? Sigh... go play the VN then think about what you wrote. Kyoani did nothing to the script, they just x'd some stuff and extended some scenes, all they did was follow what Key had provided them. If you don't know how this shit is made but go spout off like you do. I just find that those who haven't played the VN just don't seem to appreciate what this episode did but hey at least be familiar with what your about to talk about. I mean really it wasn't a damn dream... but then again w/e people will think what they want and I'm done defending the show, take it for what it is, this is not supposed to be realistic and if you continue to view at as such your just gonna ruin an excellecnt show. Really its like saying don quixote is sane when HE CLEARLY IS FUXED IN THE BRAIN. Projecting what you want the show to be and what the show really is does only disservices to the show, but hey whatever.
Whoa, Hold your horses...

Sorry for messing up who screwed up and when...
Doesn't remove the fact that in my opinion they did.
Last time I checked I was entitled to do so. :D

As for VN, haven't played it and don't thing judging by how things turned out that I will...

[Kinny Riddle]

Surreal. Yeah, that's the word to describe this ending.

I'm sure a lot of people would be confused about the revelation, maybe I'll start a new thread just to explain the ending. A very simple explanation would be: Tomoya makes a wish, and his wish is granted.

For now, I'll just be commenting on the other characters in the ending:

Kyou: We've seen plenty of her as Ushio's teacher, so nothing new to add.

Ryou: Finally, in her nurse uniform. Though another significant character related to her has been omitted entirely, which is a pity.

Kotomi: Wandering in the American wild wild west in her sports car. For a while I nearly couldn't recognize her looking this mature, and who would have thought she actually passed a driving test? :heh:

Sunohara: Compared to Kotomi-chan, Sunohara's driving is crap. Being a taxi driver doesn't seem to suit him.

Mei: OMG Mei-chan's HOT! :love:

Yukine: The new leader of the united Hikarizaka Gang.

Tomoyo: Probably off training somewhere so she could challenge Yukine's hegemony. :heh:


I think it's safe to assume that besides Nagisa's survival, everything else in this "reborn" world goes through its original course, such as Tomoya working under Yoshino, Ushio enrolling in Kyou's kindergarten.

Even Tomoya reconciling with Naoyuki in this altered reality is very possible, otherwise he would not have brought Nagisa and Ushio to meet his grandmother, plus the screen fades from his smile to a reminiscence of him holding hands with Naoyuki seems to hint at this.

Finally, the epilogue between Fuuko and Kouko-san. Kouko-san is finding it hard to challenge Tomoya as the "Fuuko MASTER" as she's simply struggling to find retorts for Fuuko's weird logic, though she's to be commended for being VERY patient with her. :cool:

As with the previous world, Fuuko once again befriends Ushio, because she "sensed" Ushio's presence. Probably a residual subconscious memory from the other dimension?

Both scenes of Ushio running on the fields and Fuuko meeting Ushio (who at first seems to appear as the Illusionary Girl) can both be seen in the First OP of the first series.


The ending may seem confusing, but with the Illusionary World scenes, the viewer should have expected that the ending involves the supernatural. And Yukine's explanation in episode 8 should have made it clear about the light orbs granting wishes. Put one and one together and it's not hard to guess that the Illusionary World is absolutely vital in the granting of wishes.


Overall, CLANNAD has been a very enjoyable series to watch. The first series (School Life) was your typical school romance series, but the second series After Story really went where no one had gone before: Exploring the characters AFTER they became couples, and eventually get married, face the hardships of life after school, and even have kids.

Regardless of what you think of the characters or the ending, you have to admit that Clannad (After Story) is successful in conveying that kind of life as realistically as possible.

[Divini]

snip

I will have to agree with this. It almost seems like there's a lot of viewers that fast forwarded (literally and/or figuratively)through any of the scenes of the illusionary world for the past... oh... 44 episodes or so, instead of making an attempt to understand it as part of the series as a whole.

Despite this, this last episode explained nearly every detail of it, and that coupled with the scene where Akio took a dying Nagisa to the forest, all the pieces fit together. To some that say that this invalidated the past 6 episodes, this miracle would have never occured, if those events never took place.

It's kind of tragic really, to have viewers judge the ending when they don't have a complete understanding of it. It really takes a lot out of the enjoyment and fulfillment of the ending....

[Ruhisu]

Beautiful episode. I was so happy seeing Nagisa again but all that magic turned off when I've seen Kotomi driving a Beetle :D
Nice one there Kotomi-chan :D

[SageGaiGar]

Kyoani's pretty anal about sticking to 'script' with Clannad. Yes they missed a few things and embellished a few things but what you saw is from the source material. Don't like it? Play the game or write your own ending in your head. Maybe share it as doujin or fan fiction.

I was a little "wait.. what? huh!?" watching this series but the ending is what it is. (And a chance to see an older Mei-chan? Woohoo!)

So they went through their world of excrement.

Given a chance to restart, knowing what may happen. Would you make similiar choices? I think this is the point of the end. This is one thing that can happen, and *this* is what 'could' happen otherwise.

Kind of helps that the series was magical realism, I would've liked a more 'realistic' sort of end but that is not this series.

Enjoy the journey and don't put all your effort and worries into the destination. Now I'll have to see about getting hunting down a copy of the game itself.

*edit*Whops I forgot that it's usually Key's adaptions that stick so close to 'script'. XD

[Nosauz]

Whoa, Hold your horses...

Sorry for messing up who screwed up and when...
Doesn't remove the fact that in my opinion they did.
Last time I checked I was entitled to do so. :D

As for VN, haven't played it and don't thing judging by how things turned out that I will...

yea maybe you should avoid key adaptations because I doubt you'll like them, this is the way they are. I just find it frustrating as to how people constantly want realism when the show never stated it was in itself realistic. The show has so much fantasy that you would have to be blind and deaf to not be able to figure this out. But w/e if your expecting an orange and I give you an apple and have stated I only have apples yet you want me to give you an orange which is not physically possible for me to give you an orange you will be dissappointed, thats how I view most of the complaints about it being unrealistic, and for the most part the complaints about the illusory world are pretty shallow, basically stating most people didn't really pay attention to the show. But alas we all can voice our opinions. I'll just say this, when I go to a honda dealership and ask for a toyota prius and don't get it but just get an accord, I'll live with it, because clearly that wasn't the place to get a prius.

[Ascaloth]

@Nosauz,

Trust me, I understand how you feel, but no need to keep ranting on ad nausem. It's not going to help you make your point further so much as it'll make you seem just like certain people when their favourite series gets trashed. :cool:

On another note, I've caught myself humming Dango Daikazoku two or three times tonight after watching this episode. :D

[Ruhisu]

Kotomi: Wandering in the American wild wild west in her sports car. For a while I nearly couldn't recognize her looking this mature, and who would have thought she actually passed a driving test? :heh:


I think, nobody was expecting such a surprise :D


Mei: OMG Mei-chan's HOT! :love:



OMG indeed :love:

[Nosauz]

@Nosauz,

Trust me, I understand how you feel, but no need to keep ranting on ad nausem. It's not going to help you make your point further so much as it'll make you seem just like certain people when their favourite series gets trashed. :cool:

On another note, I've caught myself humming Dango Daikazoku two or three times tonight after watching this episode. :D

yep your absolutely right, my ranting was just a little combination of humilation I just suffered in a CS scrim and I just kind of could only see red after reading some posts. It's just I feel like projecting what you want on to a story is pointless because then that story isn't as meaningful as it was, because your really not reading/viewing the story because it follows what you believe, you follow the story because you want to see what the author has created, and when the end is clearly in view to say because it doesn't match your projection to rag on the story makes absoultely no sense. If I wanted to create my own end for a whole bunch of anime/manga i could but the reason why I as a viewer watched anime/manga is to get the story from the author not what I wanted. Think of Arabian Nights, as Sharazah is telling the stories to the Sultan, he could envision the stories as he sees fit but he wanted to hear the portrayal of these tales from her not his own imagination. By projecting our own feelings on to the work, not only clouds our judgements but it also devalues the authors importance which is essential to story telling.

I'm skeptical enough when it comes to the news so I just feel that giving anime more room to work with is important when watching a series or else the viewer will never be satisfied from any work.

[Kuroyuki]

Very good ending, and told a lot from the way they chose to execute it.

I especially like the fact that they went to visit Tomoya's grandmother, since it is confirmation that Tomoya did go to visit his father is the ending. When I first heard of the fact they they would go back and have Nagisa survive, I was initally worried that Tomoya's family would be a loose end that they'd forget to deal with. Good to see they proved me wrong.

The end portion with Fuuka and her sister was great. I thought it was pointless, but a nice anticlimatic way to allow us to forget all the tension from the previous episodes.

-K

[velvet]

First and Last.

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w68/velvet1986/VFB2.jpg

If I ever had a chance to meet this person in real life,

I would love to have a deathmatch :Heart:

Next.


http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=2269802&postcount=152


Repped. Insightful, and excellent choice of words.

On topic.

Seeing this animated is turning me into a fanboy.

I was thinking on which one should I replay 1st. CLANNAD or Tsukihime.
I need to meet Ushio again, apparently.
After that I can die happily.


Edit:Preview.

Official Another Story Clannad: Hikari Mimamoru Sakamichi de.
光見守る坂道で Chapter 1?

Masaka?!

[Kaioshin Sama]

Regardless of what you think of the characters or the ending, you have to admit that Clannad (After Story) is successful in conveying that kind of life as realistically as possible.

No I don't.

And I still have to raise Mai Hime as an example of a supernatural world where such a deus ex ending was possible and even forseeable thanks to everything we've seen before and where people still got upset because it damaged the initial themes of the series by bringing characters back to life. I don't see why it should be any different for Clannad when one considers it as a convolution of themes.

Seriously why the sudden defense of this sort of ending event when it's been a major issue for other shows this past year. I'll raise another example, Nunally turning up alive in Code Geass with a perfectly valid explanation that was also shown to us in the episodes in question where it was relevant, and people still had a huge issue with it. And this wasn't even a convolution of themes or somebody literally being allowed to come back to lie, this was just a fakeout and it resulted in some serious butthurt. In contrast I suppose the only thing you can say as far as Clannad goes is that because Key has pulled this gimmicky sort of happy ending in the past and that somehow that makes it more acceptable and forseeable.

I'll never understand what makes this ending so okay and so amazingly perfect in so many other people's eyes compared to other thematically convoluted endings. I'm going to just have to chalk it up to it being KeyAni again and the usual insta-praise and cries of "masterpiece" that go with this reality, because if this were any other story by any other companies I could not forsee this kind of ending escaping without at least some scorn. :nono:

[Sheba]

He was talking about the life after the choice, the relationship between wife and husband then father and daughter, not the ending. He did say "as realistically as possible". This means, as close to reality that an anime where comatose girls send their ghosts to school, cats turns into shoutas and suitcase surviving a plane crash get passed around the world until it reaches an orphan can afford it.

How the hell are you denying that? What do YOU need more? If you just say that for the sake of "being indie and different", I'll answer with my middle finger and say I can be part of the herd for all I care. Because I want to enjoy a story for what it was. And that was what Clannad did to me.

[Nochgo]

I thought it was THE best ending of anime I ever watched, though there surely is bias due to how much I like this anime.
The completeness I felt even as I watched the ending was such an amazing sensation. Throughout the episode, electricity when through my body so many times (know what I mean?), especially when I finally understood the illusionary world. I won't really comment on the content of the episode, I don't really want to; maybe because of the beauty of it all. And other people have already done that in detail. I have never before thought of wishing to be able to rank higher than 10/10, higher than perfect, but I do so now.

I feel ever so satisfied.

Until my emotions for this anime calm down to normal levels, this anime shall be the greatest anime in my book.

[dgreater1]

He was talking about the relationship between wife and husband then father and daughter, not the ending. He did say "as realistically as possible". This means, as close to reality that an anime where comatose girls send their ghosts to school, cats turns into shoutas and suitcase survive a plane crash get passed around the world until it reaches an orphan can afford it.

How the hell are you denying that? What do YOU need more? If you just say that for the sake of "being indie and different", I'll answer with my middle finger and say I can be part of the herd for all I care. Because I want to enjoy a story for what it was. And that was what Clannad did to me.

Don't worry, he's just showing his troll bait. :heh:

I'm an optimistic person so I don't close my mind to every possibility that can happen. I mean, weird or not, if it's possible to exist, then it exist. If it's possible to happen, the it can happen. :cool:

[Kinny Riddle]

Don't worry, he's just showing his troll bait. :heh:

And I was wondering where our friend Kaioshin had disappeared off to the past few weeks, seems like he's been saving up on plenty of ammo just for this, having a go at the series with every opportunity he gets. And the ending has provided him with ample supply to go all guns blazing and doing what he does best whenever it involves Kyo-Ani: bashing them. :cool:

Now don't get the wrong idea, I'm through getting worked up with his methodical bashing of Kyo-Ani ages ago, my time is better spent elsewhere, but it doesn't mean I hate him at all. Hell, I've even pos-repped him numerous times. So no offense, okay?

VRMN, just noticed your post, most informative. Mind if I use it for the pending "Ending Explained" thread please?
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=2269802&postcount=152


Oh, and I forgot to mention: Kyo-Ani has given faces to side characters that would otherwise be unseen, who could forget the epic trap that is Shima-kun? Though their most impressive side characters has got to be Nishina and Sugisaka, for some reason, everytime I see these two cute girls together, I think "yuri". :love: There's even a DVD volume cover with them all cuddly. In the epilogue, they're even living together. What're they trying to insinuate? lol

(Please ignore the rabid yuri-delusional ramblings of this user. :heh: )

[Kaisos Erranon]

I'll never understand what makes this ending so okay and so amazingly perfect in so many other people's eyes compared to other thematically convoluted endings. I'm going to just have to chalk it up to it being KeyAni again and the usual insta-praise and cries of "masterpiece" that go with this reality, because if this were any other story by any other companies I could not forsee this kind of ending escaping without at least some scorn. :nono:

So you see it as your duty to destroy other people's enjoyment of a series you personally don't like, in the name of "fairness".

I see.


Oh, and I forgot to mention: Kyo-Ani has given faces to side characters that would otherwise be unseen, who could forget the epic trap that is Shima-kun? Though their most impressive side characters has got to be Nishina and Sugisaka, for some reason, everytime I see these two cute girls together, I think "yuri". There's even a DVD volume cover with them all cuddly. In the epilogue, they're even living together. What're they trying to insinuate? lol

I wouldn't be surprised if they WERE gay. Sugisaka DID give out those vibes back in the first season...

[Sheba]

So you see it as your duty to destroy other people's enjoyment of a series you personally don't like, in the name of "fairness".


The more people pretend to have changed, the more they actually stayed the same.

[Kaioshin Sama]

He was talking about the life after the choice, the relationship between wife and husband then father and daughter, not the ending. He did say "as realistically as possible". This means, as close to reality that an anime where comatose girls send their ghosts to school, cats turns into shoutas and suitcase surviving a plane crash get passed around the world until it reaches an orphan can afford it.

How the hell are you denying that? What do YOU need more? If you just say that for the sake of "being indie and different", I'll answer with my middle finger and say I can be part of the herd for all I care. Because I want to enjoy a story for what it was. And that was what Clannad did to me.

Even then it's not quite so realistic. Things aren't always that happy in the end for families and dead mothers don't come back to life to be there for their daughters after some contract with the town they live in is fulfilled. My Neigbours The Yamada's, that would be a better example of something that portrays family life somewhat realistically. Clannad is no better at portraying family life accurately than Leave it To Beaver or The Brady Bunch, it's just good at portraying an idealistic family life. Though if that's what Kinny meant then I can accept that.

And on some levels I do enjoy Clannad for what it is, yet on other levels I cannot, this is again why I can't give this series anything even approaching a masterpiece nod. I know I've mentioned this before, but 10/10's don't come easy from me and my final evaluations mix hits and misses in a way that seems dead as a far as anime reviewing goes these days. If you want me to leave you with a hit then I felt the show was very prettily animated compared to your average VN adaptation. In fact it left your average VN adaptation in the dust animation wise.

And I was wondering where our friend Kaioshin had disappeared off to the past few weeks, seems like he's been saving up on plenty of ammo just for this, having a go at the series with every opportunity he gets. And the ending has provided him with ample supply to go all guns blazing and doing what he does best whenever it involves Kyo-Ani: bashing them. :cool:

Son, if I was merely looking for ammo to fire off at Kyoani then Munto TV is like the equivalent of them handing me an Ideon Gun. I'm just trying to have a discussion here. ;)



So you see it as your duty to destroy other people's enjoyment of a series you personally don't like, in the name of "fairness".

I see.

The only way what I am saying could diminsh people's enjoyment of the series is if people acknowledge that their is indeed some truth to what I am saying and change their minds about the ending. Like I said though, I'm just trying to have a discussion and to add a different take on this show that isn't just 10/10 perfect thank you KeyAni may I have another. Though I think you should just be thankful that I am not like some of the people you'll meet on the Gundam boards I frequent who prejudge everything and wouldn't have even given this show a chance. I could just as easily have written it off as a moeblob parade after the first episode like I've seen others do, but I stuck it out and gave it it's due and was actually far more impressed then I ever though I would be. Still not enough to grovel before it, but impressed by some aspects of it nonetheless.

[Ithekro]

As with all ending, it depends greatly on how the outcome was handled. If the ending is handled well, it doesn't feel as forced or convoluted, but more feels like it should be this way.

The other convoluted endings you refer to seem to fit in the catagory of poorly executed use of the convoluted ending. If the ending is disjointed, in poor taste, or doesn't really playout all that well, it will get scornful treatment. If the ending works out because it fits in or feels deserved by the viewers, then it will mostly escape any sort of scorn.

This is just the nature of things.

Clannad comes off rather well as the feeling of "they deserved it" comes into play mixed with the shows themes and the ongoing use and explainations of the Imaginary World/Light Orbs/Town concept.

[Sheba]

Even then it's not quite so realistic. Things aren't always that happy in the end for families and dead mothers don't come back to life to be there for their daughters after some contract with the town they live in is fulfilled.
Jun Maeda is deeply sorry you have kept your disbelief on.

My Neigbours The Yamada's, that would be a better example of something that portrays family life somewhat realistically. Clannad is no better at portraying family life accurately than Leave it To Beaver or The Brady Bunch, it's just good at portraying an idealistic family life. Though if that's what Kinny meant then I can accept that.


Just like how Gundam is a joke when it comes to portray war, its grit, blood, guts and horror when compared to Platoon, Taegukgi or series like Band of Brothers.


And on some levels I do enjoy Clannad for what it is, yet on other levels I cannot, this is again why I can't give this series anything even approaching a masterpiece nod. I know I've mentioned this before, but 10/10's don't come easy from me and my final evaluations mix hits and misses in a way that seems dead as a far as anime reviewing goes these days. If you want me to leave you with a hit then I felt the show was very prettily animated compared to your average VN adaptation. In fact it left your average VN adaptation in the dust animation wise.

I did not demand a 10/10. But when you see people being irked at you, ask yourself if it is not a fair deal when you get offended when others bash your shows. Whatever the reasons are.

EDIT:

I'll ask something:

When you typed all of that.

Have you actually WATCHED the anime? Or did you again draw your impressions from reading in blogs and anime forums, the very reason that got people annoyed at you in the past? Be honest about it.

[dgreater1]

Even then it's not quite so realistic. Things aren't always that happy in the end for families and dead mothers don't come back to life to be there for their daughters after some contract with the town they live in is fulfilled. My Neigbours The Yamada's, that would be a better example of something that portrays family life somewhat realistically. Clannad is no better at portraying family life accurately than Leave it To Beaver or The Brady Bunch, it's just good at portraying an idealistic family life. Though if that's what Kinny meant then I can accept that.

And on some levels I do enjoy Clannad for what it is, yet on other levels I cannot, this is again why I can't give this series anything even approaching a masterpiece nod. I know I've mentioned this before, but 10/10's don't come easy from me and my final evaluations mix hits and misses in a way that seems dead as a far as anime reviewing goes these days. If you want me to leave you with a hit then I felt the show was very prettily animated compared to your average VN adaptation. In fact it left your average VN adaptation in the dust animation wise.

You didn't understand at all.

Fact: Episode 21 is an END (PAD END)
Fact: Episode 22 is also an END (Alternative end that branch from Nagisa delivering Ushio.)

They didn't magically (poop) become alive. This is were you apply Theory of Everything+Magical blah blah (that you probably hate) here.

If you think they lived happily ever after. Then remember Fuuko's last message about "Happy things, and enjoyable thing will start now." (I'm a forgetful person so correct me if that's wrong)

She's not really saying everything will go well, because

FACT: Anything can go wrong in a seemingly flawless happy life. :heh:

[PNGO]

You didn't understand at all.

Fact: Episode 21 is an END (PAD END)
Fact: Episode 22 is also an END (Alternative end that branch from Nagisa delivering Ushio.)




Is this true? I though THIS was the real ending because of the thread
Episode 22 Discussion / Poll [END], but episode 21 doesn't say END.

[dgreater1]

Is this true? I though THIS was the real ending because of the thread
Episode 22 Discussion / Poll [END], but episode 21 doesn't say END.

It actually means, the end of the series. :heh:

The two episodes left are just extra episodes. Like a filler but a meaningful (probably?) one.

Why do you think "TOMOYO AFTER" exist? It's a story that complete branches away from CLANNAD's After Story.

CLANNAD After Story is about Nagisa, Ushio and Tomoya, it's also known as "TOMOYA+NAGISA AFTER"

[velvet]

Is this true? I though THIS was the real ending because of the thread
Episode 22 Discussion / Poll [END], but episode 21 doesn't say END.

VisualNovel wise.

The game ended (you return to title as episode 21 material ended).

You replay after story portion of the VN up 2 episode 16,

where you are now given a choice,
to call out to Nagisa. Ep 22 Material, start.

[PNGO]

It actually means, the end of the series. :heh:

The two episodes left are just extra episodes. Like a filler but a meaningful (probably?) one.

Why do you think "TOMOYO AFTER" exist? It's a story that complete branches away from CLANNAD's After Story.

CLANNAD After Story is about Nagisa, Ushio and Tomoya, it's also known as "TOMOYA+NAGISA AFTER"

But episode 21 can't be the real ending...
I mean it even says To be Continue at the end lol.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Jun Maeda is deeply sorry you have kept your disbelief on.

I'm deeply sorry he expected me to believe in miracles in order to get the maximum enjoyment out of his stories ending and that I found his other ending a lot less problematic.


Just like how Gundam is a joke when it comes to portray war, its grit, blood, guts and horror when compared to Platoon, Taegukgi or series like Band of Brothers.

Basically. Yes.

I did not demand a 10/10. But when you see people being irked at you, ask yourself if it is not a fair deal when you get offended when others bash your shows. Whatever the reasons are.

I'm giving Clannad a much lighter/fairer deal then any so called basher would ever give one of my other favourite shows (as I've pointed out) so I don't see how this idea works.



FACT: Anything can go wrong in a seemingly flawless happy life. :heh:

I remember when Code Geass left off on the same note. It got heavily scrutinized for it just the same. Also if you must know I didn't like the BAD END any better either as to me it felt like just another reason to make people feel extreme emotion and not much else. My main issue with Clannad as I think I mentioned is that it seems to sink or float by the viewer based on it's ability to make said viewer feel extreme emotion in much the same way Code Geass sank or float on it's ability to get people into the cliffhanger/plot twist nature of it's story. In fact I found it just as problematic albeit for different reasons that are related to why I hope something doesn't happen in the show I'm going to watch on Saturday.

[Joachim]

I'll never understand what makes this ending so okay and so amazingly perfect in so many other people's eyes compared to other thematically convoluted endings. I'm going to just have to chalk it up to it being KeyAni again and the usual insta-praise and cries of "masterpiece" that go with this reality, because if this were any other story by any other companies I could not forsee this kind of ending escaping without at least some scorn. :nono:

there you go.. troll bait ;)

You never understand? expect people to never understand you either for bashing, accept it.
LOL your "keyani" hate still there i see ;)

whats wrong with people actually do enjoy key stories or kyoani adaptation anyway? what i saw in your post is just "i can't stand people loving and defending keyani anime which in my opinion "sucks" or average"

yes you wont accept this opinion of mine, but whatever seriously :D

and no i won't understand any of your comments either, capiche?

[Jimmy C]

I wouldn't be surprised if they WERE gay. Sugisaka DID give out those vibes back in the first season...

Although it'll never be confirmed either way, there's the ED. Sugisaka and Rie are the only pair holding hands. Not even the three married couples, the Furukawas, the Yoshinos and the Okazakis, are. Why them?

[Kaioshin Sama]

there you go.. troll bait ;)

You never understand? expect people to never understand you either for bashing, accept it.
LOL your "keyani" hate still there i see ;)

Okay, first of all if I were bashing it probably would have resulted in my number ticker up there being something more like a 2 and you would definitely without a doubt know it, I'm merely expressing disappointment in a story that I actually did have some higher hopes for after episode 18. Now it's just going to have to settle for the "good" label. And seriously you can't even begin to comprehend what real bashing looks like if you think that I'm bashing.

whats wrong with people actually do enjoy key stories or kyoani adaptation anyway? what i saw in your post is just "i can't stand people loving and defending keyani anime which in my opinion "sucks" or average"

It's kind of funny how my "can't understand" became "can't stand" in your sentence, but if you must know I was referring to how I can't understand how people can defend this as a flawless ending, not that I can't understand how people can enjoy it, it is after all the very defintion of a feel good ending. If it was above average for most people I could just chalk it up to a difference in review scales between me and the others, but perfect, no I'm sorry I can't understand that.

[alu546]

I can't believe it Fuuko ninja'd 1/3 of the ep.

Anyway if ppl wanted realism then don't go watch anime. You know the laws of anime so you know the drill.
You don't like the ending and don't like Maeda writing. Oh well... Lot of ppl like it and the story is sellable so it's considered good. What can't not be sold will always be forgotten.

BTW, can anyone tell the song name they used at mid ep before Fuuko appearance?

No, no , you got it wrong, we werent wanting a realistic ending, we wanted an ending that made sense given the context of the story presented in the anime. I point to the clannad movie as an example that the crap couldve been done.

Based on what is presented in the ANIME, and the amount of jargon that got thrown at us(in comparison to the other times we had it done) then yes, I DO have a problem with how its written. Because its as if the makers decided that they wanted a better, happier ending than the flow of the story wouldve given them , and made a miracle happen so it would occur. If they wanted a happy ending, they shouldve just changed the flow of the story.

Air : lotsa fantasy elements, a good story. The fantasy aspects were presented throughout the series so you werent "............." when something impossible in real life occured. Key knows how to write this stuff too.

But thats not me flaming, thats me voicing a legitimate complaint.

[Vegard Aune]

Jun Maeda is deeply sorry you have kept your disbelief on.
Although I loved the ending, I'd like to point out that Jun Maeda apparently didn't want to end the story like this. I heard in another thread here that he apparently finds these kind of "miracle-endings" to be cheap and unrealistic...
...Though the way I interpret that makes me want to ask: Did he seriously WANT to end the story with Ushio dying? Because if you ask me, that would make this entire story feel COMPLETELY pointless.

[Jimmy C]

Given how I heard he ended Tomoyo After, I think that's exactly how he would have done it if he had complete creative freedom writing Clannad.
It's not my place to say whether that's a good or bad thing.

[Nosauz]

No, no , you got it wrong, we werent wanting a realistic ending, we wanted an ending that made sense given the context of the story presented in the anime. I point to the clannad movie as an example that the crap couldve been done.

Based on what is presented in the ANIME, and the amount of jargon that got thrown at us(in comparison to the other times we had it done) then yes, I DO have a problem with how its written. Because its as if the makers decided that they wanted a better, happier ending than the flow of the story wouldve given them , and made a miracle happen so it would occur.

Air : lotsa fantasy elements, a good story. The fantasy aspects were presented throughout the series so you werent "............." when something impossible in real life occured. Key knows how to write this stuff too.

But thats not me flaming, thats me voicing a legitimate complaint.

your point is valid if you ignore all the fantasy that was in the series and then say the ending came out of left field. Its a 4 cour show, lots of the themes and fantasy were hased in small chuncks but they were clearly visable. That or we just watched two different shows.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Although I loved the ending, I'd like to point out that Jun Maeda apparently didn't want to end the story like this. I heard in another thread here that he apparently finds these kind of "miracle-endings" to be cheap and unrealistic...
...Though the way I interpret that makes me want to ask: Did he seriously WANT to end the story with Ushio dying? Because if you ask me, that would make this entire story feel COMPLETELY pointless.

Does this claim have a source or is it just a rumour?

[Sheba]

Did he seriously WANT to end the story with Ushio dying? Because if you ask me, that would make this entire story feel COMPLETELY pointless.

Yes. There are tragedy and POINTLESS tragedy. Then there are the overall tone of the story. As much the latter parts of Clannad was filled with tragedy. The show was overall rooted in optimistim and idealism (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SlidingScaleOfIdealismVersusCynicism).