Clannad Ending - Discussion and Interpretation Thread [Spoilers Aplenty] [Archive]

Kinny Riddle

2009-03-15, 21:51

What this thread is not about: Moaning and bitching about how crap the ending is or Raving and rambling about how great the ending is. There are other threads here for that.

What this thread is really about: As the title suggests, this thread will seek to do exactly what it says, that is to interpret and discuss about the surreal events concerning the Illusionary World that leads to the ending we see in episode 22 of After Story.

All speculation, theories and discussion are welcome, and remember to please keep things civil.

Finally: Since this is a discussion of the ending, after all. SPOILERS ARE APLENTY! You have been warned.

50

Now to get the ball rolling, here's my take on the ending. I'm not really the sort to lump my thinking into long-winded essays as other talented users here are capable of doing at ease, so they'll all be in point form. Please bear with me. :cool:

It is established that the Illusionary World (from hereon called IW) is a dimension adjacent to the one the characters reside in (from hereon called the ClannadVerse (CV)), as speculated by Kotomi's parents before their untimely demise. It is not bound by time and space, as travellers who come in are able to exit in a different time.

This IW can only be accessed when one possess the right conditions.

Yukine mentions of the Town legend of light orbs, which only appear when one attains a moment of happiness. Only a select few people are blessed to see and receive such orbs, and Tomoya is one of them (for reasons which will become apparent below).

While Yukine makes first mention of the light orbs after Tomoya sees and receives one, they can also be seen during Fuuko's "class" with Sanae-san (series 1, episode 8), Kotomi receiving her teddy bear (series 1, episode 14), and Misae-san spending time with her cat (AS, episode 6), as well as Tomoya reconciling with his father (AS, episode 19).

These light orbs then travel beyond the dimensional plane into IW, carrying the thoughts of happiness of these townspeople.

The IW is somehow bound to Nagisa, while Yukine makes mention of light orbs existing long before everyone's time, so it can be speculated that this IW existed for time immemorial, granting miracles to other people, and thus is born the legend. (Makes sense as there wouldn't be a legend if no one told the story in the first place, no?)

From here on, I would like to refer to this decent interpretation (http://corey.blogbus.com/logs/30378051.html) by this Chinese blogger, I shall attempt to translate to my best into English:

Events not run "chronologically", as IW is not bound by time and space, but run in the order that they occur.

1. Akio runs to the big tree in the mystical open plain and makes a wish to save Nagisa. The Town grants him this miracle by using the light orbs within the IW to save her. But in turn, this binds her life to the town. In a way, the IW now "feeds off" from Nagisa's attachments towards the town, resulting in her fragile health.

2. Tomoya and Nagisa meet and fall in love. This unintentionally causes Nagisa's attachment to shift from the Town towards Tomoya, as a result, the IW would "extract" the lifeforce from Nagisa in order to maintain its existence. (Before Akio made the contract, the IW had always been just a container for the light orbs. )

3. Nagisa dies, and Ushio inherits Nagisa's contract with the Town.

4. Ushio dies.

5. Due to her unique existence with the IW, and her subconscious will to save her mother (this is mostly speculated), Ushio is reborn in the IW and binds her will to it. Though she loses her memories in CV.

6. Tomoya, either through death (from grief, suicide?) or through a very strong will, also arrives in the IW, as a light orb (also losing his memories in CV).

7. Ushio sensed an orb that somehow seems more sentient than the others, and thus creates a body for that orb (Tomoya/the Robot).

8. Both Ushio and the Robot begin their life in IW.

9. The Robot somehow remembers something, but can't exactly place what it is, and is compelled to want to take Ushio out of the IW. As Ushio's will integrates even more with the IW, winter arrives.

10. Ushio now remembers part of her memories in CV and her desire to save her mother.

11. Ushio tells the Robot (Tomoya) about the light orbs, and sends him back in time, back to when Tomoya first met Nagisa, in order to collect as many orbs as possible.

12. Tomoya returns to that point in CV, but loses his memories in IW. Ushio becomes one with the IW, collecting the orbs as Tomoya receives them in various alternate timelines.

13. In the various alternate realities (as seen in the game, and in the DVD special episode 24, where Tomoya ends up with Tomoyo instead), Tomoya collects the various light orbs for every happiness he, or someone else he helps, attains.

14. Ushio in turns receives them, and "resets" the world to that point for every orb collected so that Tomoya may go and collect more. As there are more orbs, the IW regains its ability to sustain itself.

(Points 15-17 in the original refers to mechanics more relevant to the game players than the anime watchers, which I feel would be redundant, so I'll skip to point 18)

18. And finally, Tomoya enters the timeline we see in the anime, where he meets and marries Nagisa. Nagisa still dies in this timeline, but he still manages to collect a few more orbs before coming to CV Ushio's death.

19. As Tomoya now collected quite a lot of orbs, IW Ushio is now able to perform the miracle by sending Tomoya back to when CV Ushio is born, and with the power of the orbs, saves Nagisa's life again.

20. As history has been altered, the Ushio born in this CV is considered a different person than IW Ushio (though their souls are linked, think Tsubasa Chronicle for this one, i.e. same soul, different bodies).

21. Due to the family love created by the Okazakis, the IW is able to sustain itself, and CV Ushio no longer falls ill.

22. Her task completed, IW Ushio travels back to CV, where her soul "fuses" with CV Ushio, and she is found sleeping under the tree, where Fuuko (from her residual memory from previous timelines) manages to find and befriend her.

Phew, now that was long! Now feel free to speculate away, and come up with something better and less long-winded than this. :heh:

(The blogger even went so far as to speculate that the second Robot created by IW Ushio is actually Fuuko. But Fuuko's will to help her sister in CV was so strong she rejected Ushio's help. Ditto for Shima the cat. Though I think that's stretching things a bit far, IMHO. )

Another mention must be given to VRMN's excellent post (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=2269802&postcount=152) in the episode 22 thread about the ending.

In a way, this is similar to Groundhog Day (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groundhog_Day_(film)), or to use a more familiar analogy, Higurashi no Naku Koro ni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higurashi_no_Naku_Koro_ni), where the protagonists are given the chance to try and try again before they get things right.

Spectacular_Insanity

2009-03-15, 22:31

Well, #2 and 3 do a good job explaining how Nagisa and Ushio both died, but the entire concept of the IW is still as weird as hell. I thought it was just meant as a parallel or a metaphor for Tomoya and Nagisa. I didn't know that Kotomi's parents' idea was actually fact. I thought it was just an innocent speculation of the nature of the universe. Very, very bizarre.

I can accept the lights of happiness to a certain extent, but different dimensions connecting and what essentially amounts to time travel? I think Einstein just rolled over in his grave. :p

rave_master16

2009-03-15, 22:41

I can accept the lights of happiness to a certain extent, but different dimensions connecting and what essentially amounts to time travel? I think Einstein just rolled over in his grave. :p

I will just ask you, can Einstein explain ninja techniques that destroy world? Big animals sealed in a being? Or immortality?;)

And really, you need to rewatch the episodes after reading the explanation to see the details. You just have to connect them to understand.

evilr00t

2009-03-15, 22:59

You know what, I felt like it was a cop out by-- oops BANHAMMER!

Some random thoughts:

I wrote earlier: "Without the events of 16-21, Tomoya could not have earned Ushio’s love, required for him to have an existence in the illusionary world."
(I was alluding to Ushio's construction of a body for *Tomoya*.)
Amusingly, VRMN's post says exactly the same thing (and no, I hadn't seen the post before I wrote that). Coincidence? Hmm, maybe we're soul mates...
"Without the love of his daughter, without the events of the past arc, Ushio would have never built the robot for her father's soul to occupy."

From the visual novel, given enough light orbs:
…I ought to call out.
// …声をかけなければ。
But…
// でも…
Would it be better not to do so…?
// そうしないほうが良かったんじゃないのか…。
It would be better not to get acquainted with a person like me…
// 俺なんかと出会わなかったほうが…
It would probably be better to part our ways here.
// このまま、別々の道を歩いたほうが、良かったんじゃないのか。
But…
// でも…
I…
// 俺は…
Call out
// 呼ぶ
Don’t call out
//OMG NAGISA DIES –> leads to bad ending
// 呼ばない
“…NAGISA!”
// 「…渚っ！」

Interpretation: (and NOTE THAT I'm referring to the player character as "you"!!)
Okay, so before you get the After Story BAD END, you (Tomoya) actually call out to Nagisa during this "flashback" event. But you doesn't really understand why; you doesn't know that Nagisa’s about to die, and you don't know the hell that your immediate relations (Ushio, Sanae, Akki, Naoyuki) are going to experience after Nagisa's death. However, during the BAD END, you will get the remaining light orbs from Naoyuki and Ushio by bringing them happiness/love. [correct me if I'm wrong here, it's been a while...]

After you get the After Story BAD END, you now know the hell that you've lived through. You now have the necessary understanding to make the choice to call out to her, or ignore her. Do you regret meeting Nagisa, because doing so caused Nagisa, Ushio, and many others so much unhappiness?
If so, you don't call out. You decide that meeting Nagisa led to too much pain and suffering for everyone. You doubt that a happy result could actually occur because of what you've seen from your memories from another world. As such, Nagisa dies in childbirth right afterwards--the same as the BAD END.
Or do you realize that regardless of what you know will happen if you meet Nagisa, that Nagisa is the only one who you can be truly happy with? You call out to her, even though you know that meeting Nagisa had led to tragedy before, yet you cling to the hope for a miracle to prevent it. It is then that the miracle occurs, and Nagisa survives Ushio's birth.

Spectacular_Insanity

2009-03-15, 23:02

I will just ask you, can Einstein explain ninja techniques that destroy world? Big animals sealed in a being? Or immortality?;)

And really, you need to rewatch the episodes after reading the explanation to see the details. You just have to connect them to understand.

I was kidding about Einstein.

...and as I've said for what seems like the millionth time, I've watched both series at least twice, though it has been a few months since I've rewatched the first CLANNAD series.

They never explicitly stated that the IW was really real. I mean, to be honest I never took Kotomi seriously. Why would I? Up until now, there was no real evidence of stuff like parallel dimensions. That, and the anime had been thus far extremely realistic. Even taking the parallel world into account, I was under the impression that the girl/robot was just a metaphor for Nagisa and Tomoya, respectively. Frankly speaking, there's no way I could have known it was Ushio. She hadn't even existed at the time... not even in concept.

And even with everyone explaining the ending to me, I still can't see myself sitting down and actually... enjoying... the last episode (22). It's far too disconnected and disjointed to enjoy except as a collection of random abstract concepts that play with time and space like a yo-yo.

rave_master16

2009-03-15, 23:19

I was kidding about Einstein.

and as I've said for what seems like the millionth time, I've watched both series at least twice, though it has been a few months since I've rewatched the first CLANNAD series.
If you watched the first season twice, you should know the connection of the worlds to the memories of Nagisa and Tomoya. The theater club's play based on Nagisa's subsconsious hinted Tomoya about the illusionary world.
They never explicitly stated that the IW was really real. I mean, to be honest I never took Kotomi seriously. Why would I? Up until now, there was no real evidence of stuff like parallel dimensions. That, and the anime had been thus far extremely realistic.
Now this is a problem in your part, the fantasy elements are always there in first season. The illusionary worlds are shown time-to-time in whole Clannad story, to explain what happened to Ushio and Tomoya after episode 22. Parallel to the story, the girl gets weakened like Ushio to make the girl and the robot remember their mission.
Even taking the parallel world into account, I was under the impression that the girl/robot was just a metaphor for Nagisa and Tomoya, respectively. Frankly speaking, there's no way I could have known it was Ushio. She hadn't even existed at the time... not even in concept.
That's because the illusionary world existed after the "ENd of The World"
And even with everyone explaining the ending to me, I still can't see myself sitting down and actually... enjoying... the last episode (22). It's far too disconnected and disjointed to enjoy except as a collection of random abstract concepts that play with time and space like a yo-yo.
Key or should I say Maeda Jun likes to make stories that are not explained briefly.
He just puts some hints or clues in order to make people to interpret in their own way what he really wants us to know.
It's like he's telling a riddle and he wants us to solve it.

panzerfan

2009-03-15, 23:40

Well, the framework for Ichinose family's arguments establish the worldview context, but that unfortunately isn't exactly forthcoming without going into some work on the thought experiments in QM. It is of some surprise that Many world under Hawking turns out to simply fit what's been observed in this story flow wise and in Kotomi arc wise. Building this case on 'how can it have happend in the context of the story' took out an entire night of sleep and some cramming though.

The Chinese site has worked out a chronology, but this would apply to the visual novels which is in my argument a bit closer to the Dewitt/Everett variation on Many Worlds.

Spectacular_Insanity

2009-03-15, 23:57

If you watched the first season twice, you should know the connection of the worlds to the memories of Nagisa and Tomoya. The theater club's play based on Nagisa's subsconsious hinted Tomoya about the illusionary world.

This also may just be my opinion, but last time I checked, "hinted" isn't good enough to establish fact. It could just as easily been a metaphor, as I had previously thought. I always just figured Nagisa's play was about how she felt about her own seemingly ephemeral existence. I didn't know she LITERALLY meant another world. If I had thought she was being literal, it would simply be an assumption. As it was, my assumption just happened to be on the wrong side. So I chose to assume it was based in reality. I might have been wrong, but that doesn't mean my "decision" was wrong.

Now this is a problem in your part, the fantasy elements are always there in first season. The illusionary worlds are shown time-to-time in whole Clannad story, to explain what happened to Ushio and Tomoya after episode 22. Parallel to the story, the girl gets weakened like Ushio to make the girl and the robot remember their mission.

I'll give you that one.

That's because the illusionary world existed after the "ENd of The World"

...What? Sorry, but I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about... at all. That's completely out of left field to me. :uhoh:
Is this is CV... or what?

Key or should I say Maeda Jun likes to make stories that are not explained briefly.
He just puts some hints or clues in order to make people to interpret in their own way what he really wants us to know.
It's like he's telling a riddle and he wants us to solve it.

Well, that's just annoying! I mean, I both like and appreciate exposition. Typically. In fact, I'd rather be bored for five minutes than be confused for two episodes.

I think I should go to bed now. I have class in the morning. :p

evilr00t

2009-03-16, 00:04

Quote:
That's because the illusionary world existed after the "ENd of The World"
...What? Sorry, but I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about... at all. That's completely out of left field to me.
Is this is CV... or what?

The exposition of the play. Nagisa talks about how the play is set in a world that has already ended. (at first I didn't care much about the play, but it's actually important.)
First season, episode 22. (20-21 possibly)
Second season, ep16[11:51]

Kinny Riddle

2009-03-16, 00:08

panzerfan

2009-03-16, 00:10

You need Quantum Mechanics-fu, Spectacular_Insanity.

Ryou: The hidden world, was it?
Kotomi: Yep. It's another world that exists right next to this one, but it can't be seen or felt. However, we're starting to find out that's not entirely true.
Ryou: Really?
Kotomi: Yep. It's probably akin to a warped extra dimension. The current theory states that what we perceive as objects are stuck firm to high dimensional planes and they cannot remove themselves from their maximum existence. But for example. energy due to gravity is said to transcend through dimensions. Just like that-
Kyou: Stop! Tell us the story so we can understand.
Kotomi: That was a very, very simplified explanation.
Tomoya: So you're saying that this world and the hidden world are related strongly at a deep level?
Kotomi: Yes. Time, space, and peoples' minds echo in a strange way to recreate both worlds or create whole new ones. They might be affecting each other like that. That's what I wanted to say.
Ryou: Could our lives be tied to that world too?
Kotomi: Maybe, then yet again maybe not. This world is really filled with mystery.
Nagisa: I wonder what the hidden world is like.
Tomoya: What? Why did I just think of that play? The girl in the world that has ended. Why did I know that story?
Nagisa: Tomoya-kun?
Tomoya: O no, I was just thinking that in that other world, people might be having parties like us.
Kotomi: There may be more than one hidden world. There's a theory of multiple worlds existing too.
Tomoya: Fujibayashi, I remember you saying something like that when you were talking about fortune-telling.
Ryou: Yes. There is no one future, but there are many possibilities. I still think that way.

Existance of IW is not bound by the time and space of the clannad normal universe as it is a localized system which stands on its own, although connected to the original clannadverse. I tried to explain why that is so in a few posts over the episode 22 discussion thread. (although it seems now that it's mostly a 'wha...?' response)

dgreater1

2009-03-16, 00:21

You need Quantum Mechanics-fu, Spectacular_Insanity.

Ryou: The hidden world, was it?
Kotomi: Yep. It's another world that exists right next to this one, but it can't be seen or felt. However, we're starting to find out that's not entirely true.
Ryou: Really?
Kotomi: Yep. It's probably akin to a warped extra dimension. The current theory states that what we perceive as objects are stuck firm to high dimensional planes and they cannot remove themselves from their maximum existence. But for example. energy due to gravity is said to transcend through dimensions. Just like that-
Kyou: Stop! Tell us the story so we can understand.
Kotomi: That was a very, very simplified explanation.
Tomoya: So you're saying that this world and the hidden world are related strongly at a deep level?
Kotomi: Yes. Time, space, and peoples' minds echo in a strange way to recreate both worlds or create whole new ones. They might be affecting each other like that. That's what I wanted to say.
Ryou: Could our lives be tied to that world too?
Kotomi: Maybe, then yet again maybe not. This world is really filled with mystery.
Nagisa: I wonder what the hidden world is like.
Tomoya: What? Why did I just think of that play? The girl in the world that has ended. Why did I know that story?
Nagisa: Tomoya-kun?
Tomoya: O no, I was just thinking that in that other world, people might be having parties like us.
Kotomi: There may be more than one hidden world. There's a theory of multiple worlds existing too.
Tomoya: Fujibayashi, I remember you saying something like that when you were talking about fortune-telling.
Ryou: Yes. There is no one future, but there are many possibilities. I still think that way.

Existance of IW is not bound by the time and space of the clannad normal universe as it is a localized system which stands on its own, although connected to the original clannadverse. I tried to explain why that is so in a few threads over the episode 22 discussion thread. (although it seems now that it's mostly a 'wha...?' response)

I wanted to point this portion of the series for all the time but because it's' connected with Episode 16, Nagisa's unlucky delivery, I just couldn't :heh:

Spectacular_Insanity

2009-03-16, 00:32

CrowKenobi

2009-03-16, 00:50

Well, as they say, hindsight is 20/20. At least I know NOW, if that even means anything anymore.And THAT is precisely how Tomoya makes the "right" choice in episode 22! :D

:cool:

Ithekro

2009-03-16, 03:24

I think the proper term for that find is, BINGO.

Klashikari

2009-03-16, 03:33

Even taking the parallel world into account, I was under the impression that the girl/robot was just a metaphor for Nagisa and Tomoya, respectively. Frankly speaking, there's no way I could have known it was Ushio. She hadn't even existed at the time... not even in concept.
That is if you still cling to the rigid three-dimensional chronology, then yes, she hasn't existed. But bear in mind that the existence of IW is not bound by time and space. The moment Ushio first enters IW, she can reset the world over and over again, back to a time before she even existed in CV, but it does not affect her existence in IW.
I will also add that the anime series implied PLENTY that the story we got from season 1 and AS is NOT the first loop!
As implied in lots instances, Tomoya KNEW already about the illusionary world when Nagisa mentions about her tale, it even creeped him out as he seriously has a "deja vu" feeling, though Sanae and Akio fail to see what he is talking about.
Furthermore, Tomoya also had a chilling flashback of the IW in the snow, implying more and more about his "previous life".

Since the Illusionary World was created by Ushio, there is no way this story could be the first loop, as Ushio had to die first. Ergo, she already existed, but be it anime or game wise, we don't know "when", and using Kotomi's explanation, there is no way to tell how many loops it has happened.

All of these facts are taken from the ANIME and interpreted like this, thanks to Tomoya and Akio comments. There is no need for game knowledge here, but it certainly needed a second watching.

Ergo, Tomoya had fun time with hellish misfortune until he got these light orbs.

Kaioshin Sama

2009-03-16, 04:07

I think that just the fact that we all have to be here rationalizing and interpreting what happened with regard to Tomoya's journeys through alternate dimensions means that it probably could have been brought across a whole lot better in the anime.

To use the example of Higurashi that was brought up in Kinny's post, with Higurashi there was little to no doubt left as to what was happening with Rika and we were shown at least once her transition between the possible realities (and not to mention how she was able to pull off such a feat) before the big miracle such that we knew what was going on with her and that she was searching for a way to bring about a miracle. Here we are left to do guess work based on what the visual novel showed us and some vague hints in the anime that may or may not really have helped to clue us in on exactly what was happening had the visual novel not existed as a reference as to what was supposed to be going on in the anime as well.

And even setting all of the above aside, it still doesn't alleviate the fact that the mysticism involved in the story and the themes of family ties don't exactly merge together to form a complete whole like they could have and that the idea that one can find a new way to honour the memory of a loved one, right their downward spiral, and start a new life competes with the idea that ones fate is semi-predetermined because of a pact made with a town carrying over to a new host.

In fact I'd continue to argue that they clash with one another to a point where the shows themes ultimately end up becoming less then sum of it's parts.

rave_master16

2009-03-16, 06:05

Kinny Riddle

2009-03-16, 08:04

In fact I'd continue to argue that they clash with one another to a point where the shows themes ultimately end up becoming less then sum of it's parts.

Please elaborate, if this is for discussion of the sometimes confusing ending, fine, but if this is another one of your thinly veiled attacks on the show for which I have no time for, I am going to have to ask you to stop and take it somewhere else. I did not open this thread just so you could have another excuse to attack the show.

Spectacular_Insanity

2009-03-16, 11:38

I will also add that the anime series implied PLENTY that the story we got from season 1 and AS is NOT the first loop!
As implied in lots instances, Tomoya KNEW already about the illusionary world when Nagisa mentions about her tale, it even creeped him out as he seriously has a "deja vu" feeling, though Sanae and Akio fail to see what he is talking about.
Furthermore, Tomoya also had a chilling flashback of the IW in the snow, implying more and more about his "previous life".

Since the Illusionary World was created by Ushio, there is no way this story could be the first loop, as Ushio had to die first. Ergo, she already existed, but be it anime or game wise, we don't know "when", and using Kotomi's explanation, there is no way to tell how many loops it has happened.

All of these facts are taken from the ANIME and interpreted like this, thanks to Tomoya and Akio comments. There is no need for game knowledge here, but it certainly needed a second watching.

Ergo, Tomoya had fun time with hellish misfortune until he got these light orbs.

Yeah, it makes sense now, but I thought the girl in the Imaginary World had been a metaphor for Nagisa... the fact that it was actually Ushio completely escaped me. it doesn't help any that Ushio and Nagisa look really similar.

I swear that this series has become work just to understand. :heh:

Mirrinus

2009-03-16, 12:49

You know, simply saying that it's similar to Higurashi makes it so much easier for me to understand, as I already have an elaborate personal analogy for Higurashi. Thanks.

Kinny Riddle

2009-03-17, 05:30

I swear that this series has become work just to understand. :heh:

Depending on the level of your enthusiasm, it could either be work or passion, or just plain boredom. :cool:

You know, simply saying that it's similar to Higurashi makes it so much easier for me to understand, as I already have an elaborate personal analogy for Higurashi. Thanks.

Why, thank you. A rather flattering compliment, considering I've not seen a single episode of Higurashi, and only learned of its involvement with multiple time-loops through hearsays from the internets. :D

SaintessHeart

2009-03-17, 09:04

Actually I thought of Clannad as better than Higuarshi. Maybe it is the humane factor involved in this series that make it easier for me to understand.

I, for one, is somebody who graduated from high school a couple of years ago, and being someone who spent an extra year as compared to my peers, I would say that although my grades are not so good and I can't make it into college or university, high school is truly an experience to be remembered. Definitely all the friends made are not forever, it is certainly the events that happened, and the things done with them (mostly stupid, but not as bad as my middle school in which I had a few legal issues) that makes it something that I want to keep going forever.

Unless you have been total goody-two-shoes the entire of your high school life, school days are always experiences worth remembering when you become a member of society. I may still be the same rude, uncouth, stubborn and insulting person I was in the past, but the experiences I have made in school have made me who I am.

In a certain South East Asian country with a rather screwed up education system rather similar to Japan, it is not the content learnt during the lessons that make the students effective and useful members of the society, but rather, it is the experiences they had that made them that (apparently the semi-useless Ministry Of Education and certain principals likes to take credit for something they made a mess of, and the teachers had to clean up for them). Each student will come out differently, but if society is willing to give them a chance to prove themselves in the tools of trade they excel in, everyone benefits, and in order to do that, empathy is probably the most important thing that is required.

Likewise for everything one sees in life, it is important to play on the strengths that one has rather than constantly criticising the weaknesses he/she/it possesses. It takes incredible perception to see from all points, but the amount of experience one harnesses adds to the empathy one is able to give. It is a pity that disillusioned self-declared "pragmatists" and "realists" continue to discredit the fact that everyone is useful to the society.

If one has a heart, let him love. If one has no heart, but has a brain, teach him how to love. If one has no brain, no heart, but has a spirit, teach him how to fight in order to protect.

After all, it is what life really is. A coconut. And Clannad really puts it in the most optimistic way one can see. Even Tomoya lost almost everything he had by Episode 21, he was given a chance of redemption, and he took it, and all that convinced him to do it is to tweak his pessimistic outlook a little, as evident of his actions throughout the story to change the experiences and memories he had in his life.

Ascaloth

2009-03-17, 11:16

This just popped up on Sankaku Complex:

http://g.imagehost.org/t/0268/clannad-storyline-diagram.jpg (http://g.imagehost.org/view/0268/clannad-storyline-diagram)

Clannad's Storyline Explained (http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2009/03/18/clannads-storyline-explained/)

It'll help fans of the ending to explain their stance better, it probably won't change the minds of non-fans in any case, but either way, I think this should be put into the OP. :cool:

EDIT: As monir advised, I have uploaded the image to my own Photobucket account. I'll keep the spoiler tag for the time being while I try to figure out how to post it in thumbnail....or perhaps a mod can assist me on this? :heh:

EDIT 2: Ok....this is as best as I do. Sorry, alcohol in the system really kills my thinking process. Can some mod out there finish the job for me? :heh:

EDIT 3: Bah, Proto pointed out the Tomoyo After spoiler, so I put it back in spoiler tag....please, someone, anyone, finish the job for me. -_-

monir

2009-03-17, 11:48

Asacloth, I can't see the image for whatever reason. Are you hotlinking? Upload it to any image hosting site (my favorite (http://www.imagehost.org/)) and then post it in thumbnail form so dial-uppers don't curse and your children for the injustice.

monir

2009-03-17, 12:10

With all the episodes at hand, I resumed Clannad once again from episode 10 and marathon through the ending. I want to quote the brief talk Kotomi had in episode 16 about the "hidden world" by using SS-Eclipse's translation. I'll also omit the dialogues by other characters to keep her statement as whole:

"It's another world that exists right next to this one, but can't be seen or felt. But we are starting to find out that's not entirely true. It's probably akin to a warped extra dimension. The current theory states that what we perceive as objects are stuck firm to high dimension planes and they cannot remove themselves from their maximum existence. For example, energy due to gravity is said to transcend through dimensions. Time, space, and people's minds echo in a strange way to recreate both worlds or create whole new ones. They might be affecting each other like that."

And now Ushio's explanation in episode 22 about the Illusionary World/Hidden World to the robot (aka Tomoya). Once again, I'll forego most of the robot's dialogue and some of Ushio's response to keep things simple and straight to the point:

Ushio: I can finally hear your voice. I soon won't be a human so I can hear your voice. I was having a dream. I learned a lot of things in it. About myself. About you.... You and I used to be in the same world. We were very close, too. Long ago, though. Actually, we might still be.

Robot: So we weren't supposed to be in this world, after all! Let's go back together.

Ushio: In this world, I am the world. If I leave this world, this world will disappear. Then many lights would meet misery. Those are feelings from people in the other world. You were one of the lights too. The world that is the furthest, yet the world that is the closest. We've always been there. Yes, we came from the same place. We only see things differently.

Robot: Another world? Is an alternate me there?

Ushio: You should be able to tell, since you exist in both worlds. We were able to meet despite the differences in the world. You will soon fall asleep in the world and wake up in the other world. You will meet many people, and many things will happen. Then you'll eventually meet me. Like we can see people's feelings from the other world as light in this world, my feeling will become many lights in that world and shimmer. Each light may be very faint, but gathered together they should become a strong force.

*Ushio hums the Dango song.*

Robot: I know that song.

And finally, the little portion of the dialogues that goes along with the blurry background imagery of the town right after Tomoya hugs Nagisa in episode 22. Those portion of dialogues should fill in the blank for what is about to transpire and how the happy ending comes forth:

Nagisa: "Would you like me to take you to a place in this city where wishes come true?"

Tomoya in a deep voice that I think suppose to project a much older self to signify the flow of time in the other world: "It's coming to an end... the long, long journey..."

*Ushio cries after her birth. Tomoya wakes up with a start as if from a trance.*

75

When I put these three pieces of dialogue together, the ending starts to make sense.

- Everything that has happened up until episode 21 took place quite sometime in the past (or to quote Ushio from IW, "Long ago"). All those events are also from Tomoya's point of view. As we come to see, he has been pretty miserable through out his life. His mother died. His father has been pretty rotten to Tomoya as he wallowed himself in self pity, but was determined to take care of his son because Tomoya was his obligation. As a result, he drifted apart from Tomoya which adds to Tomoya's misery because he pretty much raised himself where he probably couldn't brag to his dad about that he took a dump all by himself. Tomoya meets his future wife and has lost her after giving birth to her. Then the daughter also dies eventually. The grief stricken Tomoya asks for a miracle as he holds her daughter's life-less body. He also specifically states, "No... I don't want this." As he lies down on the snow along with Ushio still in his arms, the screen starts to fade into whiteness. This is where Kotomi's explanation about the hidden world comes into play. To quote her: "Time, space, and people's minds echo in a strange way to recreate both worlds or create whole new ones. They might be affecting each other like that."

The Illusionary World is a given premesis for this show. We need to accept it as fact to understand the rest of the ending. The creation of the world comes into play when Tomoya refuses to accept how his life has transpired thus far with the death of Ushio. His desire was so strong that he was able to transcend into the Illusionary world and attract Ushio's (aka Hidden World's) attention. Ushio helps him to change the direction of the event from the point where Nagisa gives birth to Ushio. And to do that, a new world needed to be created. In this new world Nagisa doesn't die at child birth. And Tomoya finally find happiness after a long, long journey through misery.

The last part where Fuko meets Ushio... now this is where I face roadblock to understand the last puzzle. Fuko is meeting Ushio for the first time after the creation of the world. My confusion is this world is Tomoya's or another world created by Fuko's desire to meet Ushio. If it is Tomoya's world, then Fuko is just taking a nap under the tree, and Tomoya-Nagisa are somewhere nearby. If it is Fuko's world, Ushio has made her appearance in this world just for Fuko.

Proto

2009-03-17, 12:17

Here is a thumbnail of an edited timeline without the spoiler
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/3051/timeline.th.png (http://img13.imageshack.us/my.php?image=timeline.png)

Feel free to replace it

Klashikari

2009-03-17, 12:18

Actually I thought of Clannad as better than Higuarshi. Maybe it is the humane factor involved in this series that make it easier for me to understand.
Clannad is however using a "loop" system that is arguably too simplist compared to higurashi using tons of factors, especially the pesky butterfly effect and probability issues, coupled with actual "memory" of this kind of travel.

The last part where Fuko meets Ushio... now this is where I face roadblock to understand the last puzzle. Fuko is meeting Ushio for the first time after the creation of the world. My confusion is this world is Tomoya's or another world created by Fuko's desire to meet Ushio. If it is Tomoya's world, then Fuko is just taking a nap under the tree, and Tomoya-Nagisa are somewhere nearby. If it is Fuko's world, Ushio has made her appearance in this world just for Fuko.

The last part has absolutely no explanation even in the game. Actually the game only shows IW Ushio, not the "normal" Ushio in her sailor uniform.

The general and usual theory is that, the miracle was powerful enough that it manages to bring back "Original Ushio" who is the last piece that should be drifting into nothingness after her job done.
It is unclear why she was appearing there, but it is very likely that Fuuko is somewhat related to this phenomenon due to her astral experience "remotely" similar to "original Ushio" existence.

Proto

2009-03-17, 12:22

That part is briefly touched upon on the CLANNAD Another story chapter, memories of a town (http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/index.php?title=Clannad_Another_Story:Another_Stor y16). I encourage people to read it as it kind of explains how things fared out after the story ending for the Okazaki family.

monir

2009-03-17, 12:33

The last part has absolutely no explanation even in the game. Actually the game only shows IW Ushio, not the "normal" Ushio in her sailor uniform.

The general and usual theory is that, the miracle was powerful enough that it manages to bring back "Original Ushio" who is the last piece that should be drifting into nothingness after her job done.
It is unclear why she was appearing there, but it is very likely that Fuuko is somewhat related to this phenomenon due to her astral experience "remotely" similar to "original Ushio" existence.
We know the Hidden World's version of Ushio needs to stay there because as she said, she is the world. And if she leaves, the world disappears. So that can't be the Ushio from the Hidden World.

By the way, she did drift into "nothingness" as shown outside the window when Tomoya held the newly born Ushio. Those blue lights were drifting upward. As the Ushio from the Hidden World said, her feelings became many lights and were shimmering.

Ascaloth: Thumbnail has been added to your post. You and your children are saved! :D *cough - Ascaloth*

Ascaloth

2009-03-17, 12:36

We know the Hidden World's version of Ushio needs to stay there because as she said, she is the world. And if she leaves, the world disappears. So that can't be the Ushio from the Hidden World.

By the way, she did drift into "nothingness" as shown outside the window when Tomoya held the newly born Ushio. Those blue lights were drifting upward. As the Ushio from the Hidden World said, her feelings became many lights and were shimmering.

Asacloth: Thumbnail has been added to your post. You and your children are saved! :D

Thanks.

And it's Ascaloth. :D

Klashikari

2009-03-17, 12:39

Actually, considering how the last scene was executed, it is showing the IW crumbling to send back Tomoya in the normal world. As far as I can see, the lights were gathered in the IW so far, until the journey was finally over.
Then only afterwards, the lights appeared back in the normal world, creating the miracle (synchronization with the town?).

IW Ushio had to remain as "the world" so that these lights wouldn't turn into despair, but since the lights were now used for the miracle, IW Ushio existence becomes rather moot as the "IW".

Nosauz

2009-03-17, 12:52

Is Tomoya going back to the hill really considered time travel? In the science fiction sense of the word I really don't consider it time travel and more of a wish being granted via metaphysical means? Especially when you consider time travel in the sense that say "back to the future" the time machine propose it as.

Sheba

2009-03-17, 12:55

Ithekro

2009-03-17, 12:57

Or perhaps what is left of her and the IW become the Town in the remaining world. Thus the IW "ends" and IW Ushio is "reborn" into the world as Ushio. Thus she may or may not have some of those memories (Ushio has always seemed a little too good of a kid and always wondering off without anyone really bothering her). Add to this the scene with Fuuko...perhaps that is meant to mean that even IW Ushio found happiness and is within Ushio still, and thus why Fuuko can "smell" her and fleetingly sees the IW Ushio.

This would, by some definitions, mean that Ushio still is the world.

Proto

2009-03-17, 13:06

(Ushio has always seemed a little too good of a kid and always wondering off without anyone really bothering her).

Huh? you think that is a big deal? On the Another story novel I linked...

They send her to freaking France. I'm starting to think that maybe my family is the one that is too conservative and in other parts of the world its the most normal thing in the world to send your precocious elementary school kid in a trip around the world

Sheba

2009-03-17, 13:15

Huh? you think that is a big deal? On the Another story novel I linked...

They send her to freaking France. I'm starting to think that maybe my family is the one that is too conservative and in other parts of the world its the most normal thing in the world to send your precocious elementary school kid in a trip around the world

Japanese must have a very romantic view of some countries. Because...

France is not really the place you should send kids in.

If I was the writer, America would be a better bet. Especially with Kotomi there.

Klashikari

2009-03-17, 13:17

Your sarcasm doesn't work well proto :heh:
Well honestly, I never considered that side story seriously, even if it is "canon". As you say, even 15-16 years old kids would have hard time to travel alone sometimes, so a grade schooler is basically suicide (as she isn't even sent to an acquaintance whatsoever).

Edit, Sheba: oh yeah, big time. It would be scary if she was sent to Paris. Somehow, Japanese are really too daydreaming about France, despite even the language has nothing that charming (spare me the usual crappy "langue de banlieu" and the rest..OTZ)

Kristen

2009-03-17, 13:19

I'm going to give my interpretation as when I played the game. This may be right, it may be wrong, but it's what I thought until reading other interpretations.

Tomoya meets Nagisa on the hill. Story proceeds as normal with him and Nagisa. Nagisa dies, Ushio is born, Ushio dies
Ushio ties her fate to the illusionary world using a light orb she gained from making Fuuko happy, thus saving herself and her father
Ushio uses a 2nd light orb to send Tomoya back to the time that he first met Nagisa. He meets another girl, and develops the story until he finds another light orb
After aquiring these light orbs, Ushio realizes this is the wrong light orb, and sends him back in time again to find the right one
Eventually, Ushio gives up and lets him live his life. He winds up choosing Nagisa in this world. When he helps Sanae with her school, Ushio realizes it is really Akio who can save Nagisa
Tomoya is sent back once more, and gains Akio's light orb. The illusionary world is destroyed, and Tomoya recovers at the birth scene. He uses the light to save Nagisa, breaking the curse

That is just how I interpreted it on my first playthrough. Though the explanations here make more sense. XD

monir

2009-03-17, 13:24

For reference purpose:

Ushio-IW: Ushio from Illusionary World
Ushio-RW: Ushio from Real World

Actually, considering how the last scene was executed, it is showing the IW crumbling to send back Tomoya in the normal world. As far as I can see, the lights were gathered in the IW so far, until the journey was finally over.
Then only afterwards, the lights appeared back in the normal world, creating the miracle (synchronization with the town?).
I don't think the scene was meant to show IW's crumbling. The reason for that is when Ushio-IW said that she was starting to hear the robot's thought because she wouldn't remain in her human form much longer. Ushio was more of an avatar of the Illusionary World so the Illusionary World could better interact with the Robot-Tomoya. As Tomoya was being sent to the Real World, the job for the Ushio-IW's avatar came to an end. When Ushio crumbled, that's when the miracle started to happen. The lights' seen in the Real World after Ushio's birth is Ushio-IW's feelings which is also the sign of the miracle has successfully taken into effect.

IW Ushio had to remain as "the world" so that these lights wouldn't turn into despair, but since the lights were now used for the miracle, IW Ushio existence becomes rather moot as the "IW".
Don't hurt me, but I think that's not correct either. :D Once again it was touched upon in the explanation by Ushio-IW and Kotomi in her Hidden World explanation. Ushio-IW said she was dreaming. She was learning about herself and the robot. It tells us that the Illusionary World made the Ushio-IW avatar by using lights from Ushio-RW. The lights are the projection of how people are seen in the Illusionary World. The lights are people's feelings.

If all those lights are indeed used to create the miracle, it doesn't mean more lights won't be transcending into the Illusionary World from there on. Hence, the existence of the Illusionary World is always a given. The need for its existence will be there as long as people's feeling are in constant flow. Surely, the need for miracle won't end with Tomoya's either. As a result, the Illusionary World continues with its barren existence.

Ithekro

2009-03-17, 13:30

Well, by Another Story, if Ushio and IW Ushio are one and the same...no one will mess with her. To take a different KyoAni god analogy, Ushio is now an extremely young and kind Haruhi. She is the Town and/or the World. If she wants to go visit other towns to see their happiness, she'll do it.

Klashikari

2009-03-17, 14:05

Once again it was touched upon in the explanation by Ushio-IW and Kotomi in her Hidden World explanation. Ushio-IW said she was dreaming. She was learning about herself and the robot. It tells us that the Illusionary World made the Ushio-IW avatar by using lights from Ushio-RW. The lights are the projection of how people are seen in the Illusionary World. The lights are people's feelings. I'm not exactly convinced because the IW got a winter, which is arguably strange for the world to disable its own avatar.
Furthermore, IW Ushio only understood her role after the "dream", so she was rather a distinct existence that was afterwards tied to the world without her knowing.
Tomoya-robot observed IW Ushio for a long time before being "invited" in the IW through the junk doll as a vessel.

Furthermore, I don't exactly see why IW Ushio would start saying the lights are "her feelings" if she was just the manifestation of a light orb of RW Ushio. That is like "feelings of a concept" instead of a "transcending being".

If all those lights are indeed used to create the miracle, it doesn't mean more lights won't be transcending into the Illusionary World from there on. Hence, the existence of the Illusionary World is always a given. The need for its existence will be there as long as people's feeling are in constant flow. Surely, the need for miracle won't end with Tomoya's either. As a result, the Illusionary World continues with its barren existence.Well there is no real proof that the IW will still exist or not, especially its purpose was only a folkloric tale.
I personally believe that this "alternate dimension" is indeed still existing, but Ushio's IW achieved its purpose after the miracles.

Well that is only a matter of perception so.

CrowKenobi

2009-03-17, 19:50

germanturkey

2009-03-17, 19:58

wait wait wait, is 24 really tomoyo after?! or is that speculation?

edit: missed the thread... i can hope though. Tomoyo After is by far my favorite piece of Clannad.

Ithekro

2009-03-17, 20:02

Tomoyo After....being a game roughly the same length as After Story...I seriously doubt they can compress the story into a single episode...even if they skip all the side arcs and characters.

panzerfan

2009-03-17, 20:03

They can nevertheless try. By the way, I think I will copypasta my own supporting apologetics here to Kotomi's hunches.

*Disclaimer: by no mean am I trying to say that you just witnessed Quantum Mechanics the Animation. Don't blame me for the death of nekomata or whatnot since this is all for the sake of realism (TM) some are demanding.

My own leaning is towards the sum of all paths as well, but the origin of the world that has ended and the end of that period becomes the sore thumb in my mind. I suppose that here's where putting physics and anime together == god kills catgirl axiom applies, but if one can chronologically fit the world that has ended as a branch to the time constraint beginning from the reference point of the meeting over the bottom of the hill, perhaps a much less magical conclusion can be drawn to appease those that demand realism out of the "catch episode 22" question with all pun intended. This becomes an anomaly due also to potential causality problem with where this should go, and we actually even have an information paradox to contend with given that an explanation of where did all that energy and matter involved with the history to 'world that has ended' go when it literally collapsed?

I guess to really go wild, my own guess is that Hawking's own way out of his own information paradox to form the theoretical basis of what happened I suppose with that world and how it correlates to the 'majority' of the paths. This is where the whole topic goes completely beyond me however. His idea was on the line that either the world that has ended is literally another self-contained alternate universe where information of Ushio and Tomoya just bleed into (preserving informational enthalpy overall) and I guess Tomoya and Ushio got hurled into some sort of a black hole(?) with the observer audience getting the Tomoya POV instead of a 3rd person view of the whole spectacle... *Lost at this point, mostly as the part where it seems that universe comes out of black hole singularities...

Tomoya's consciousness into 2 halves so it can simultaneously participate in 2 worlds.

This also adds to the headache due to consideration of Quantum Entanglement... is Tomoya and Robot Tomoya really communicating with each other or programmed to interact the same way or... EPR paradox, where looking at Tomoya is enough to predict all of what robot Tomoya is going to do? I don't quite comprehend how many world circumvents this thought experiment actually.

For me it's much more logical to believe that dimensional shifting is more a possibility than splitting a mind, when one considers the fact that time and space is a measurable phenomena as compared to the idea of consciousness which is already so abstract as it is.

This issue would go away I guess if a strong explanation can be given of how that we have locality preserved through the view of how we look at Tomoya's global state relative to the end of the world local state. Consciousness would open a can of worm and it would lead everyone off on a massive tangent.

If we were to strictly fit IW into some chronological relationship with everything else, even as a separate universe, it would most likely fall as a world postdating the death of Ushio. IIRC, IW girl mentioned before the IW got nuked into oblivion that the two of them existed as 2 different people prior to the IW, and spoke in a past tense. This suggests to me that the IW was the result of Ushio's death and possibly Tomoya's own, the exception perhaps being Key's choice to run it in parallel. Otherwise, evidence points to the IW being an eventual result of the bad end.

Bear in mind of course that this for me is a more likely scenario than the IW occurring after meeting on the hill because while it would require Tomoya to jump dimensions, it follows a more linear series of events. From a strict order:

Ushio's death -> Illusionary World -> Time Loop -> Hill meeting

rather than:

Hill meeting -> Clannad Events parallel to IW -> Time Loop

For the sole reason that if both IW and Clannad ran in parallel, it's assuming that you split Tomoya's consciousness into 2 halves so it can simultaneously participate in 2 worlds. This sort of idea if closely related to the "limited souls" problem that if the universe had a limited number of souls, how exactly can there be an infinite number of people, unless you split a soul into a infinitely smaller number of souls to have more people. THAT'S a metaphysical problem I'd rather not touch.

And looking on the bright side of things, at least the contradiction didn't cause the Clannadverse to asplode on itself.

Not necessarily because, for me anyway, I don't really believe that the consciousness is split. For me it was real Tomoya before Robot Tomoya, shifting towards the IW after Ushio dies. For me it's much more logical to believe that dimensional shifting is more a possibility than splitting a mind, when one considers the fact that time and space is a measurable phenomena as compared to the idea of consciousness which is already so abstract as it is.

Key managed to follow the idea of Many World Interpretation under the Hawking interpretation in the anime adoption, and that is the basis of my argument. Essentially, with the magical properties of quantum mechanics, this strange set of parallel 'paths' consisting of one central universe and a separate universe in the form of the 'world that has died' aren't totally dues ex machina. I think that this concept of fighting fire with fire can be off-putting to some people, but here be what I think a plausible defense based in human understanding of the physical world... maybe upsetting and offputing but someone has to be the heretic here.

*I think that a better explanation of this conjecture is that Clannad Afterstory follows Hawking's own doctoral thesis on how parallel universes work. This links the idea of the singularity in black hole to the creation of parallel universes and how that even with the main universe itself, our final outcome in episode 22 is really a summation of all the possible paths, and even factoring in the enigmatic timeline of that world that has ended. This is very abstract and I am going to assume that Clannad is what little human can actually comprehend of the history information of the whole system in question.

Wikipedia explained it well...

In the many-worlds interpretation, both alive and dead states of the cat persist, but are decoherent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_decoherence) from each other. In other words, when the box is opened, that part of the universe containing the observer and cat is split into two separate universes, one containing an observer looking at a box with a dead cat, one containing an observer looking at a box with a live cat.

In short, science is fine with a state of dead and alive in a localized system relative to a global system, so you can be too if you want to be~nano.

Proto

2009-03-17, 20:14

NEKOMATAAAA!!!

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Looking at the professional interests that Maeda Jun has, I think that we are reading too much into it. Sci fi styled multiverse interpretations are believable. Trying to put in even scientific divulgation styled quantum physics into the whole thing is just pushing it :p

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOO

!!

MeoTwister5

2009-03-18, 01:49

For what it's worth, Higurashi is far more plausible in terms of MWI and maybe even String Theory compared to Clannad.

panzerfan

2009-03-18, 02:40

MeoTwister5

2009-03-18, 03:03

But in comparison, Clannad pretty much only needed a minor alteration in action to change the fates of the people involved, whereas Higurashi needed a gigantic amount of deviations in the set path in order to affect the ultimate outcome that Rika wanted to avoid.

Ithekro

2009-03-18, 03:14

Well and the Higurashi setup changes each arc rather than Clannad's more or less same starting point and setup.

Fishman

2009-03-18, 08:03

I believe the whole show was actually a dream tomoya had because he is a loser, except Tomoya is actually his father, who is dreaming because he lost his wife before he had his supposed "son" I also believe if you sail far enough from the shore you will fall off the edge of the world and land into the netherworld, which is apparently supported by four giants, which are consequently standing on a giant tortoise that is drifting aimlessly in space that is beyond the comprehension of any high-powered microscope or clairvoyant being.

If you just read that and liked it then you will also like the last episode of Clannad.

MeoTwister5

2009-03-18, 08:08

Well that is true. Higurashi is a fun example to look into over amplitude of various outcomes of several paths, although it seems that the outcomes are only summed up to Rika the observer ultimately. Without spoiling the story, the outcome rests heavily on achieving a very specific set of state that has questionable amplitude of occurrence as opposed to the rather typical sets which have much higher amplitude!

But... uh... doesn't that violate Copenhagen? I don't follow that interpretation myself, from a philosophical standpoint, but it could always have been considered that all possible present and future events were already superimposed?

For Clannad anyway, it's not as if the viewer or even Tomoya knew the probability of what could have been happening at that time and the eventual result of a coice made during said time. Like the propverbial cat, it was either life or death, and ujntil the exact moment of the event there was no way for Tomoya to really know which one would be which. Then again, it's limited by the assumption that since a conscious mind could only interact with an event once and only once due to temporal separation, all possible outcomes could happen with equal possibility if not all existing already at the same, until the moment of collapse and only one outcome could occur.

For Higurashi, MWI was the only way to escape the inevitable outcome. Unlike the Cat, it needed not just one but a multitude of altered events ascribing to even more multiple futures in order to find potentially least required alterations to achieve total deviation.

In Copenhagen terms, and I'm probably saying this out of context, the ability to experience all those possible wave functions in order systematically remove all these functions from the equation itself, so that the person observing and/or experiencing is left with but one function, with a 100% probability of occurring.

Which makes me beg the question: Was there really only two ways out of that fateful snowy day? Tomoya had experienced the effects of one wave function collapse, but how sure was it that he'd get the one he wanted after realizing the way out of the one he already chose?

Anyway, no way in hell Copenhagen would have probably allowed what he did. MWI is the only explanation.

panzerfan

2009-03-18, 08:13

@ MeoTwister5: And yes, that would've only worked under many world, Everett interpretation and sum of path too. As you said, Copenhagen is completely in odds with Higurashi due to largely collapse of each state by end of each arc.

Well, the waveform collapse is arguably that the physical process of decoherence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decoherence), which causes an apparent collapse. So in this case we have a loss of information from the IW to another system (being the junction point at the foot of the hill), but Tomoya the observer will observe that as a waveform collapse... so the IW isn't actually gone at all really.

I ended up saying saying IMW is overrated to illustrate a point on how some people hold that Kyoani narrative is overrated . I think I am a fan of IMW actually.

EDIT: I think that Tomoya could've gotten out of the snowy day, by having realized that he shouldn't have denied his decision of being with Nagisa and start a family and allow the town and Ushio to persevere, albeit without Nagisa. He should have had more than enough in the ways of cumulative sums of various paths to have come to that realization and to affect the IW in this way. I don't know however if he can bypass the junction point of the foot of the hill directly.

At Fishman, can't deny that Giant tortoise view is one of the *best* at its time, even if you are pulling a strawman over this the whole exercise to give apologetic to what's technically possible in the show's world view. Sure, the prime time of our tortoise world view would be 1927 or 1988~ or ask if the Hindu thinks that they got the idea down earlier. Hawking would know, he made a book featuring that analogy.

Well, you did illustrate the fallacy of second-guessing and interpretation by having presented the turtle worldview to try and support the snarky comment of how Tomoya's having a dream.

Why, making the claim that I would've the liked the last episode of Clannad sounds like fox crying on grape it can't eat as sour. O wait, I am making a judgmental and biased conclusion based on inferring to what you're getting at, my bad.

@Texas84. lol, so cheating by not giving the cat poison vial.

Texas84

2009-03-18, 12:01

From someone who took P-Chem three times, awesome thread!

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/128338532260781250iminurbocks.jpg

monir

2009-03-18, 20:51

I'm not exactly convinced because the IW got a winter, which is arguably strange for the world to disable its own avatar.
Furthermore, IW Ushio only understood her role after the "dream", so she was rather a distinct existence that was afterwards tied to the world without her knowing.
Tomoya-robot observed IW Ushio for a long time before being "invited" in the IW through the junk doll as a vessel.
I thought the manifestation of weather such as the snow, or other aesthetic such as the sky, the grass, the sunflowers, and the shape of the world itself is created from what Ushio-RW experienced and how she perceived her surrounding during her brief existence. The very act helped IW to communicate with the Robot. We know Ushio's emotions are copied when Ushio-IW states that they need to get away from this place before the snow comes. Otherwise, she will go to sleep even though she doesn't seem to know why. That, to me, corresponds with the event which took place where Ushio dies (falls asleep) outside in the snow. These events were recreated so IW can better understand Ushio's lights/feelings which, in turn, helps communicate with the Robot who shared direct connection with Ushio once... and in turn, IW comes to understand the particular kind of miracle the robot desires.

Furthermore, I don't exactly see why IW Ushio would start saying the lights are "her feelings" if she was just the manifestation of a light orb of RW Ushio. That is like "feelings of a concept" instead of a "transcending being".
That is a very good point, and I agree. My theory is that, relying slightly on Quantum Mechanics (:heh: ), IW is attempting to justify the miracle by using terms Robot/Tomoya will "understand." I'm putting "understand" behind quotation mark because I'm sure Tomoya doesn't care if he understood how the miracle occurred. He is happy that his wife didn't die and Ushio would have a mother.

Well there is no real proof that the IW will still exist or not, especially its purpose was only a folkloric tale.
Wait just a cotton pickin' minute... so what was the purpose of the lingering effect shown about IW from the very first episode of Clannad and persisting with the illustration of the IW till the very end?

I personally believe that this "alternate dimension" is indeed still existing, but Ushio's IW achieved its purpose after the miracles.
I agree. The only disagreement we have here is that I think IW still persist with its primary task which is never over as long as people are capable of projecting their feelings. To interject with a bit of Quantum Mechanics once again, "feelings" are said to be the very nature of Wave Functions. :heh:

By the way, has anyone noticed how Panzerfan has the nag for saying the most simplest of things in the most complicated of manners? :D I was less confused when I first read about Wave Function compared to a typical Panzerfan-post. :heh::D

panzerfan

2009-03-18, 21:37

Monir: you're right. Guilty as charged and know of it :uhoh: I really didn't want to be blatantly explicit either given how some people will choose to induce personal arguments with your words, so it always end up convoluted and indirect to the actual point at times. I am terrible at literacy level balance and it actually puts people off by sounding condescended. Subsequently, I've had alot of strawman pulled on me for things I wanted to get due to this attempt to avoid bashing.

Well, wave functions are fed information, which in turn is an energy, and that energy in an alternate form is... mass that form matter/antimatter. In some sense, the crazy idea that you can take information and put together just about anything if you can understand the said information is kinda far out but a reality in the Quantum realm. Almost is magic isn't it... now whether or not if the feelings that Ushio/Tomoya has over Nagisa and his recollection of all the people they had helped would be those informations needed to glue all that 'stuff' together in the IW and all.

monir

2009-03-19, 11:44

Well, wave functions are fed information, which in turn is an energy, and that energy in an alternate form is... mass that form matter/antimatter. In some sense, the crazy idea that you can take information and put together just about anything if you can understand the said information is kinda far out but a reality in the Quantum realm. Almost is magic isn't it... now whether or not if the feelings that Ushio/Tomoya has over Nagisa and his recollection of all the people they had helped would be those informations needed to glue all that 'stuff' together in the IW and all.
I know that the significance of the IW and the very existence of it can't be explained away without relying on the theoretical realm of Quantum Mechanics as soon as the word was uttered "dimension" in Clannad. There is also a chronological order that seems pretty apparent to explain how the miracle took shape.

Ushio is born. Nagisa dies. Tomoya forms a bond with Ushio. Tomoya tells Ushio about Nagisa. Ushio observes the emotion Tomoya wears every time he tells her about her mother. Ushio forms an impression by interpreting those emotions displayed by Tomoya. Ushio wants to give her father happiness. Her father's happiness is Nagisa.

Ushio dies.

IW comes to take interest at Ushio-RW's lights/feelings. An avatar is created that is Ushio-IW. The world and the other aesthetic are also replicated by interpreting whatever Ushio-RW perceived during her brief existence in the Other World. IW has yet to interpret what Ushio-RW wants.

IW comes in contact with Tomoya's light/feelings. IW correctly surmise to put Tomoya in the same world that is created after Ushio-RW. These two meet. IW has a complete picture of what the miracle needs to be about.

Nagisa cannot die at child birth.

And the eventual conclusion is as we see it.

Monir: you're right. Guilty as charged and know of it :uhoh: I really didn't want to be blatantly explicit either given how some people will choose to induce personal arguments with your words, so it always end up convoluted and indirect to the actual point at times. I am terrible at literacy level balance and it actually puts people off by sounding condescended. Subsequently, I've had alot of strawman pulled on me for things I wanted to get due to this attempt to avoid bashing.
Meh! :) A good poster always knows when not to give a damn about what others are saying negatively if the post itself explain things without becoming personal. You are more than a good poster. :cool:

Kaioshin Sama

2009-03-20, 15:02

Spoiler-free Clannad diagram now in a more readable size. :D

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/8337/clannadstorylinediagram.th.jpg (http://img23.imageshack.us/my.php?image=clannadstorylinediagram.jpg)

:cool:

If you subscribe to this graph then it causes problems for the whole story because it makes it seem like Tomoya still crossed timelines from timeline 2 to timeline 1 at the end of After Story episode 16, which wouldn’t make sense. If he’s already at the point where he can collect the light orbs at the beginning of the series (and indeed we see him bonding with all of the girls and helping them) then why does he go through all of those bad end events shown in Timeline 1 starting at episode 17? Theoretically he already helped all of the girls to get the light orbs so he should just jump straight to the good ending. In this manner it looks like the graph doesn’t really work…..or am I missing something?

Proto

2009-03-20, 15:03

Ithekro

2009-03-20, 15:16

Basically, the yellow parts are the show itself and we, the viewer, are actaully starting in the "middle" of the story, after the first (or 12th...whatever) jump back. What we are given is the Second Timeline until Episode 16 where the choice is made. We are shown choice A first...this leads us back to Timeline One (Nagisa dies). We got though Ushio Arc then get sent back to the point of choice (Episode 16/22) and see choice B...Nagisa lives (orange path)

In theory it could mean that the first run we get, Tomoya is short just one orb, and gets in from his father after having skipped it the other times though. Therefore he goes back one last time and is finally able to save Nagisa. If one looks at it in Game terms.

I choose to view it slightly differently, but that is my choice.

Nosauz

2009-03-20, 15:17

Couldn't the IW, be thought of as a reseptical for the towns happiness? Even though its created by Ushio, I assume from a happiness orb. Also if IW is a vessel for the happiness of the town, it implies that the towns shared happiness is much like the shared happiness within a family and hence the happiness within the town/family brings about the miracle of Nagisa not dying. Of course this could just be my delusional thinking. With the projected feelings of happiness the idea that family is based on a "home" which Nagisa emphasizes to Tomoya in Episode 16 when Tomoya and his father meet in jail for the first time. The concept of home and how it ties in with the town, and the importance of a "home" in a family makes me think that the town's collective happiness brought about the miracle. This is one thing that makes me confused, if all the happiness is used to give Nagisa and Tomoya this miracle, how can IW still exisit? And was there some form of IW when Nagisa was 5 since Akio also made a similar wish for Nagisa?

Kaioshin Sama

2009-03-20, 15:21

Yes, he already did. The one who switched contexts wasn't Tomoya himself, but us, as in the viewer when we reached the dimensional crossroad.

Or you could say that prior to his decision both timelines existed simultaneously, in a Schrodinger cat kind of way. It wasn't till he took his decision that both timelines collapsed into timeline 2. In any case we were shown those episodes so we could come to understand:

- The existance of the IW
- The existance of Timeline 2 itself
- The significance of the crossroad were timeline 1 and 2 radically diverge.

Then why does Tomoya seem to be all buddy buddy with Kyou in episode 20 if we the viewer crossed timelines? The graph seems to imply that they never really met or bonded in any meaningful way in Timeline 1 and thus Tomoya lacks the light orbs there.

Proto

2009-03-20, 15:29

That is something I don't completely agree with the graph.From my POV, the only thing that changed between the past of Timeline 1 and Timeline 2 was the gathering of lights, the unconscious need to gather the happiness and memories from the people from the town.

Kaisos Erranon

2009-03-20, 17:34

Then why does Tomoya seem to be all buddy buddy with Kyou in episode 20 if we the viewer crossed timelines? The graph seems to imply that they never really met or bonded in any meaningful way in Timeline 1 and thus Tomoya lacks the light orbs there.

?

Tomoya and Kyou had been friends since their second year of high school. They're fairly close from the very start of the story.

Ithekro

2009-03-20, 17:36

Also why he calls her by her given name rather than her family name I would guess...since he calls Ryou "Fujibayashi", by Kyou is "Kyou".

Kaisos Erranon

2009-03-20, 17:40

Also why he calls her by her given name rather than her family name I would guess...since he calls Ryou "Fujibayashi", by Kyou is "Kyou".

He has trouble getting that out of his mindset in the Twins' route too, which was very amusing.

Proto

2009-03-20, 17:40

?

Tomoya and Kyou had been friends since their second year of high school. They're fairly close from the very start of the story.

She talked about how Sunohara, Ryou and Kotomi had talked about paying him a visit. If we take the timeline at face value he shouldn't be that well acquainted with either Ryou or Kotomi, nor should they have any reason to form a cohesive group.

Kaisos Erranon

2009-03-20, 17:44

She talked about how Sunohara, Ryou and Kotomi had talked about paying him a visit. If we take the timeline at face value he shouldn't be that well acquainted with either Ryou or Kotomi, nor should they have any reason to form a cohesive group.

Oh, okay then.

Yeah, that timeline is stupid.

Ithekro

2009-03-20, 17:49

Well Ryou is in his own class...so he'll know her at least. Kotomi on the other hand is a question. I suppose it depends on how the route stucture goes. Timeline One has to be able to get into After Story to fuction. If you can do Nagisa's route without interacting with Kotomi, then you have a potental flaw.

However there is something to be said for the yellow path having to follow what came before it...so the Yellow path would have references to Timeline Two even in the Timeline One portion because that is the routes "present" Tomoya had taken up to that point.

Klashikari

2009-03-20, 17:50

Not really. If they defined Nagisa's "route" in the anime with such cohesion (since the actual events aren't show as different timelines but successive events, which may or may not give a light orb), the fact Tomoya and the rest of the characters are being that close isn't a paradox.

They never implied such thing in the game, but since the anime changed the story to have a single timeline, it still makes sense.
If Tomoya "already helped" the girl from the original timelines, it doesn't actually mean he could have orbs with everyone. Likewise, we cannot claim X or Y events could happen so smoothly before.

Kaisos Erranon

2009-03-20, 18:49

In the game, Kotomi only appears within her own route (and the Sunohara Gay End if you're going for that).

So yeah, the timeline diagram is dumb.

Klashikari

2009-03-20, 18:58

The diagram is only applied to the anime series, obviously.

To begin with, the game wouldn't need a diagram considering its structure which is much easier to figure as several timelines unlike the anime series.

So the given diagram is hardly anything dumb here.

Kaisos Erranon

2009-03-20, 19:07

Still doesn't work the way the diagram shows though.

In this case, I'd say Tomoya actually went back in time than into an alternate universe...

VRMN

2009-03-20, 19:16

*sighs*

The only orb he collects after Nagisa's death is his father's. The anime depicts one timeline up until the ending. One. There is an implied and undepicted first timeline where he fails and is then sent on his mission, which we see in the anime.

That's my interpretation. The graph overcomplicates things, honestly.

Kaisos Erranon

2009-03-20, 19:20

Hamchan

2009-03-20, 20:50

Timeline kinda makes sense to me but my head is still reeling. I think i'll go play the game now to actually 'get' this. Kinda reminds me of watching lost actually :)

Kaisos Erranon

2009-03-20, 21:15

Timeline kinda makes sense to me but my head is still reeling. I think i'll go play the game now to actually 'get' this. Kinda reminds me of watching lost actually :)

The game makes more sense, due to the fact that you (as Tomoya) are actually traveling into a different timeline every time you click "New Game", effectively.

Nosauz

2009-03-20, 21:39

In the game, Kotomi only appears within her own route (and the Sunohara Gay End if you're going for that).

So yeah, the timeline diagram is dumb.

You mean sunohara gar end... or sunohara awesome end, the fact that sunohara makes no passes on any girls the entire game brings up the possible siscom or the I like to fence complex.

Kaisos Erranon

2009-03-20, 22:01

the fact that sunohara makes no passes on any girls the entire game

Have you actually played the game?

Sunohara hits on Sanae, Nagisa, Tomoyo, Misae, Kyou, Yukine, Kotomi (kinda), and Ryou if you make certain choices. (I don't remember him hitting on Fuuko, though I'm probably wrong.)

He's most certainly straight.

Nosauz

2009-03-20, 22:17

No i mean hes never in a lasting/serious relationship. I never question his straightness I just don't find the sunohara gay end that bad as its quite comically done similarly to Genshiken II episode 5. Yes I know he hits on other females but really most of the time he comes off as playful and the girls don't really take him seriously.

Kaisos Erranon

2009-03-20, 22:23

Poor Sunohara, because he IS serious.

And I never said the Gay End wasn't awesome.

Nosauz

2009-03-20, 23:44

Then thats my fault because usaully when people use gay they use it in a derogatory form, hell I know I use it in a derogatory form in replacement for lame. I know he's serious but his attempts come of as childish which in turn make them feel like hes not serious.

Kaisos Erranon

2009-03-20, 23:46

Whaaa?

"GAY END" as in "An ending that involves the male lead in a homosexual relationship with another male character, (usually the secondary male lead) or something along those lines."

It's comparable to "BAD END" or "DEAD END" in terminology.

Nosauz

2009-03-21, 00:03

As I said I use geh/gay to refer to lame things, its not pc but I've grown up using it, and since I refer to it as the sunohara end, I thought the gay was used in a derogatory sense which it wasn't but just my mind associating my use for gay instead of just taking it for its literal meaning. My bad ;)

TubZzz

2009-03-21, 04:19

i just finished watching Clannad and am looking forward to Clannad After Story... loved it so far lets see what After Story has to offer ^_^

Sheba

2009-03-21, 04:35

You know that this thread is spoiler territory, don't you?

TubZzz

2009-03-21, 04:37

yer i do... i didn't read through it or anything... just clicked on last page then posted my previous post ^_^

milkmandan

2009-03-21, 17:30

Poor Sunohara, because he IS serious.

And I never said the Gay End wasn't awesome.
I still dont get Sunohara's ending. why is he in a car driving?

Ithekro

2009-03-21, 17:35

He is either:
A. a taxi driver
B. learning to drive.

milkmandan

2009-03-21, 18:30

He is either:
A. a taxi driver
B. learning to drive.
for what reason?
:confused:

SaintessHeart

2009-03-21, 18:33

milkmandan

2009-03-21, 18:44

I think he is a taxi driver in training, they never mentioned his job. And besides it is stated that he took up a job to make ends meet in his family.

I was hoping he would be Tomoyo's personal chauffeur or something.
for a character that provided such great comic relief i feel kinda bad he didn't have a well explained ending D:
I guess it isn't really KyoAni's fault. They did a damn good job making him a likable character. :\ They did a good job over all. like VRMN said, it is rare, but i felt extremely connected to all the characters and i actually cared.

SaintessHeart

2009-03-21, 20:22

for a character that provided such great comic relief i feel kinda bad he didn't have a well explained ending D:
I guess it isn't really KyoAni's fault. They did a damn good job making him a likable character. :\ They did a good job over all. like VRMN said, it is rare, but i felt extremely connected to all the characters and i actually cared.

Well I think that he is actually financially supporting Mei through her high school. Sunohara isn't that bad of a person, just a little idiotic and too honest. If he wasn't paired with one of the Fuji twins, it would be better if he is paired with that Sakagami girl.

zSolaris

2009-03-22, 08:27

Makes sense. 'Cept for the last one. Then again, that last scene just completely and totally made me go "o.O".

lann

2009-09-21, 06:02

Hey ya anime Suki. ive just signed up to share my less convoluted version of what the girl and robot storyline is all about.

for starters, its important to remember this is anime, not the game.

From what I have read and have seen, it's my representation that Akio (Nagisa'a father) runs to the big tree (where the hospital now is) with the dying Nagisa in his arms, and makes a wish to save her. The Town grants him this miracle by using the light orbs collected from around the town to save her. But in turn, this binds her life to the town, resulting in her fragile health due to this unnatural way of being kept alive. Nagisa dies in childbirth purely because the power the city gave to Nagisa wasn't enough to sustain 2 lives. The contract now passes on to Ushio, but the power fizzles out early in her life. The girl and robot storyline begins right after Ushio's death in the bad ending, in a world that represents the towns' spirit. Because of the contract, Ushios spirit is kept alive in this place, but she is now without her memories of who she was. Tomoya's strong will to stay by Ushios side forces him to die alongside Ushio, and he follows her to this new world, and assimilates into the robot that Ushio makes. Ushios memory of who she was and who the robot was in the real world come back when her human form is dying in the wintertime, and after realising what she needs to do, she uses her last bit of will power to collect the power from all the floating lights to change history itself, to make it so no tragedies ever happened.
In episode 22 she said she cant leave that world because she is the world, but at this point I don't think she knows exactly what she is. In the end, she still uses all the light orbs to change history. She assimilates with Ushio from the good future, and the robot too assimilates with Tomoya. In the 1st series Nagisa can 'see' parts of the other world with the girl that resides there, because of her contract with the city. Likewise Tomoya can 'see' it because a part of his soul is there in the robot. The reason why this can happen even if its not suppose to happen until the future is because the other world is purely the soul of the city/town. A soul isn't a timeframe, it's an essence. It can be now, the past or the future.
Sometimes throughout the anime you see the lights assimilate into the people. When this happened to Tomoya when he set his dad free, the power he obtained here could have been used to help his soul travel with Ushio in death.