Toradora! - Episode 24 Discussion / Poll

[Pellissier]

Welcome to the discussion thread for Toradora!, Episode 24.

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[typhonsentra]

Loooots of material to cover.

[MeoTwister5]

Huh? This episode even out yet?

[SageGaiGar]

Loooots of material to cover.

Part of vol 9 and part of vol 10? This should be interesting.

[Miles Teg]

Huh? This episode even out yet?

Airtime in Japan (JST, GMT+9): Wednesdays at 25:20 (Friday at 1:20AM)

So no, a little more than 3 hours before the episode air.

[othera]

<3<3<3

Been wanting to see ep 24 heaps... Dx

[Peanutbutter003]

I'm tingling with excitement...

The last time was Haruhi-chan Ep 01 and I, or rather, all those who waited, were rewarded with Nice boat. :heh: I hope there's no repeat of this. :D

[MeoTwister5]

I'd rather not see a Nice Boat, anywhere, at all, in Toradora.:mad:

[SageGaiGar]

no no no, not School days nice boat but the intentional trolling with the apology of no new haruhi set to boat footage and "It was not done in time".

Nice boat the meme is as dead as the game.

But this episode should be jaw dropping. What time EST? I know here we get the raws around 3-4pm. Streamed around then too.

[Waven]

At least one already knows it's going to end in a cliffhanger... :rolleyes:

[Miles Teg]

But this episode should be jaw dropping. What time EST? I know here we get the raws around 3-4pm. Streamed around then too.

IF EST is GMT-4 then 11:20

For French who lurk in this forum :D the episode is airing at 17:20

[cynicalicious]

It'll air at 12:20 EDT. Remember, we sprang forward a couple of weeks ago, so we're -13 hours from JST. (And Japan doesn't do DST.)

[whitepearl]

Just finished watching...apparently this is a two-part finale, as the episode ended with a "To Be Continued" after the credits.

BTW, next week's episode will air at 1:50AM JST; a half-hour later than the usual.

[Tango337]

God damn it. Why must they stretch it out.

They skipped the kiss probably leaving it for next episode

[typhonsentra]

God damn it. Why must they stretch it out.

They skipped the kiss probably leaving it for next episode

.... You've gotta be kidding me. I knew this was a possibility but damn, they really did this?

[wistfulloner]

God damn it. Why must they stretch it out.

They skipped the kiss probably leaving it for next episode

Holy shit I think I just spoiled my Ep24. :(

[Mozen]

Spoilers please =x

[Tango337]

.... You've gotta be kidding me. I knew this was a possibility but damn, they really did this?

They were ABOUT TO and then the damn phone rings typical block crap. WHY MUST THEY DO THIS.:frustrated::frustrated::frustrated:

[Trogdor Jube]

Sooooooooo from my understanding of the episode.

Ryuuji cofessed his love for Taiga to Minori AND Ami.
Also lol at jumping in water.
Didn't really get the parts with Yasuko.

Also,
PHONE COCKBLOCK!

[Miles Teg]

-Minorin and Ryuuji go after Taiga.
-Minorin ran into a locker and got a nosebleed
-Ryuuji accompanied Minorin to the clinic, where he confesses to her when asked that he does in fact like Taiga.
-Minorin looks sad in the hall as Ryuuji leaves.
-Ryuuji confronts Taiga at their part time job booth.
-Taiga says she feels like she may run away when they have to talk, so they should hold off until later, but that if she does run away, that Ryuuji should pursue her.
-Just then, Taiga's mother and Yasuko shows up and busts a fit.
-Ryuuji say a lot of bad thing to Yasuko.
-Taiga takes Ryuuji's hand, and runs away.
-Taiga and Ryuuji are on a bridge discussing about what has happened and what they want to do from now on.
-Ryuuji propose to run away until he turn 18 and for them to get married.
-Kitamure call Takasu, everybody goes to Ami house (her parents are not here right now)
-Ryuuji and Taiga explain the situation, Ami give the key to her villa house, and Minori give them money.
-Ryuuji and Taiga go back to there respective house, they willbe leaving the next morning.
-Yasuko has leave the house.
-The next moring both of them take the train.
-In the end change of plan, they go to see Ryuuji grandparents. Ryuuji present Taiga as his fiancée.

[typhonsentra]

So... it's Kitamura's fault?

[Mozen]

-Minorin and Ryuuji go after Taiga.
-Minorin ran into a locker and got a nosebleed
-Ryuuji accompanied Minorin to the clinic, where he confesses to her when asked that he does in fact like Taiga.
-Minorin looks sad in the hall as Ryuuji leaves.
-Ryuuji confronts Taiga at their part time job booth.
-Taiga says she feels like she may run away when they have to talk, so they should hold off until later, but that if she does run away, that Ryuuji should pursue her.
-Just then, Taiga's mother and Yasuko shows up and busts a fit.
-Ryuuji say a lot of bad thing to Yasuko.
-Taiga takes Ryuuji's hand, and runs away.
-Taiga and Ryuuji are on a bridge discussing about what has happened and what they want to do from now on.
-Ryuuji propose to run away until he turn 18 and for them to get married.
-Kitamure call Takasu, everybody goes to Ami house (her parents are not here right now)
-Ryuuji and Taiga explain the situation, Ami give the key to her villa house, and Minori give them money.
-Ryuuji and Taiga go back to there respective house, they willbe leaving the next morning.
-Yasuko has leave the house.
-The next moring both of them take the train.
-In the end change of plan, they go to see Ryuuji grandparents. Ryuuji present Taiga as his fiancée.

thanks!!!!!

[noobita]

-Minorin and Ryuuji go after Taiga.
-Minorin ran into a locker and got a nosebleed
-Ryuuji accompanied Minorin to the clinic, where he confesses to her when asked that he does in fact like Taiga.
-Minorin looks sad in the hall as Ryuuji leaves.
-Ryuuji confronts Taiga at their part time job booth.
-Taiga says she feels like she may run away when they have to talk, so they should hold off until later, but that if she does run away, that Ryuuji should pursue her.
-Just then, Taiga's mother and Yasuko shows up and busts a fit.
-Ryuuji say a lot of bad thing to Yasuko.
-Taiga takes Ryuuji's hand, and runs away.
-Taiga and Ryuuji are on a bridge discussing about what has happened and what they want to do from now on.
-Ryuuji propose to run away until he turn 18 and for them to get married.
-Kitamure call Takasu, everybody goes to Ami house (her parents are not here right now)
-Ryuuji and Taiga explain the situation, Ami give the key to her villa house, and Minori give them money.
-Ryuuji and Taiga go back to there respective house, they willbe leaving the next morning.
-Yasuko has leave the house.
-The next moring both of them take the train.
-In the end change of plan, they go to see Ryuuji grandparents. Ryuuji present Taiga as his fiancée.

Teenager Love Will Triumph !!

So the next episode is final?

[Tango337]

So... it's Kitamura's fault?

More like JCSTAFF. I don't see why they just didn't get it over with.

[Miles Teg]

So... it's Kitamura's fault?

About what ??

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/2090/1237393631623.th.jpg (http://img14.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1237393631623.jpg)


... grandparents
http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/1531/1237394857585.th.jpg (http://img14.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1237394857585.jpg)

[Trogdor Jube]

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd91/DPXJube/moe.jpg

Was looking forward to "NICE BOAT" end, but that does not seem to be happening.
This works to though.

[Mozen]

What Ryuji said to Yasuko?

[typhonsentra]

Interesting that they made Ryuuji look so much like his grandfather right down to his eyes when they've made such a big deal throughout the series that he gained the trait from his dad.

[Miles Teg]

What Ryuji said to Yasuko?

Yasuko is having a fit about Ryuuji lying and working instead of studying. Ryuuji then has a breakdown about Yasuko making him try to fulfill her dreams in her place, that she would have been happy without him and that she regrets giving birth to him.
Copy and paste from Roan spoiler of novel 9, because I am lazy :D


In the end things that a lot of teenager say to their parents without thinking that they will hurt them.

[Mozen]

Yasuko is having a fit about Ryuuji lying and working instead of studying. Ryuuji then has a breakdown about Yasuko making him try to fulfill her dreams in her place, that she would have been happy without him and that she regrets giving birth to him.
Copy and paste from Roan spoiler of novel 9, because I am lazy :D


In the end things that a lot of teenager say to their parents without thinking that they will hurt them.

=O
tnaks for the spoiler

[Trogdor Jube]

Is it just me or does the fued between Ryuuji and Yasuko seem a little forced? I mean, was there ever a time when he and Yasuko ever had any sort misunderstanding or trouble in thier relationship?

[SageGaiGar]

I can hardly wait for raws/streams now. Cliffhanger? Why am I not surprised. But sounds like this episode is as expected :D.

So it's not just his dad. O_o. Though he didn't quite have the same 'evil' look.

@Trogdor

No, they've gotten along quite well. This just so happens to be when they finally do blow up at each other. Likely over just the small/minor stuff that can add up over the years. He's probably also just over stressed with everything else and is just blowing up in general. No one is safe when you're in a pissed mood. Anything and everything can get magnified.

[(o^^)-o*(x_x)*]

Is it just me or does the fued between Ryuuji and Yasuko seem a little forced? I mean, was there ever a time when he and Yasuko ever had any sort misunderstanding or trouble in thier relationship?

It does feel forced, and I think author might have simply done it because it was a convenient way to move the plot, at least in my view.

Also, how could anyone make sweet old Yasuko cry like this

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v186/pickie/th_1237393718850.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v186/pickie/?action=view&current=1237393718850.jpg)

[Miles Teg]

Is it just me or does the fued between Ryuuji and Yasuko seem a little forced? I mean, was there ever a time when he and Yasuko ever had any sort misunderstanding or trouble in thier relationship?

It wasn't that forced, remember last week when the teacher has asked Ryuuji if he has always say yes to his mother. Then this week was the result of that, he has always been following what his mother has said even when he didn't wanted to, this time (with the help of the stressful day he has live) he has simply released all the "anger" (not the word I want but I don't find the good one) he has accumulated against his mother (job/education).

[wistfulloner]

I've got snacks and I'm sitting comfortably in my chair. All that's left is for the show to begin. :cool:

Been refreshing youtube for the past 10mins...

[4get]

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/7866/1237396506625.gif

No comment, yeah.

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/289/1237394377206.jpg

[Freeter]

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/7866/1237396506625.gif

No comment, yeah.

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/289/1237394377206.jpg




Reminds me of Chidori from FMP doing that to Sousuke :heh:

[typhonsentra]

Dude, have you not been paying attention or something?

[Janifuu]

Manji Midou I notice your always the one giving each episode of Toradora a 1 rating on the poll >_> Care to explain why?

As for this episode,

Loved it. My only wish was that they didn't take out the infamous kiss scene from the novel :( Oh well, I have high hopes it will be dramatically shown in the last episode.

[aohige]

I ran out of tissue paper.

I had to use toilet paper for the rest of the episode.

[SageGaiGar]

Err.. didn't think I mentioned where to find the raws but whops. Watching now.

[Kaisos Erranon]

They're never gonna show a kiss, guys.

Apparently people on television don't kiss. Remember Clannad?

Storks bring Japanese babies instead of sex.

God damn it.

[SageGaiGar]

They're never gonna show a kiss, guys.

Apparently people on television don't kiss. Remember Clannad?

Storks bring Japanese babies instead of sex.

God damn it.

So... loli fanservice, panty shots, tentacle jokes, etc is fine.

But not a kiss? O_o lolJapan.

[Fran~]

i won over spoilers... :cool:

:heh:

[puppygod]

Oops. I thought that site I mentioned is of the same status as youtube, and hence legit. Sorry to the mods.

They're never gonna show a kiss, guys.

Apparently people on television don't kiss. Remember Clannad?

Storks bring Japanese babies instead of sex.

God damn it.

I was so disappointed. Though I still hope that's side effect of working with general outline rather than ready material. We'll see next week.

It seems that jcstaff are really trying to squeeze as much as they can in the little screentime that is left. They even did that thing with dropping ED again.

[Kaisos Erranon]

So... loli fanservice, panty shots, tentacle jokes, etc is fine.

But not a kiss? O_o lolJapan.

This is fairly recent too. You used to see kisses a lot more... Maybe it's the troubled economic times.

...Although wouldn't that cause people to have MORE sex...?

[moshimouse]

It does feel forced, and I think author might have simply done it because it was a convenient way to move the plot, at least in my view.

Also, how could anyone make sweet old Yasuko cry like this

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v186/pickie/th_1237393718850.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v186/pickie/?action=view&current=1237393718850.jpg)

awww poor Yasuko :( i love her to death, i dont like the fact that this fights was really forced but at the same time i can understand how things can just pile up when everything is fine and dandy and just explode when things start to hit the fan

toradora defiantly has some of the best side characters though, but i still dont like seeing her cry ;_;

[aohige]

There was nothing forced.

You know, this happens every episode week after week after week, where people start making random criticisms about episode they don't even understand
then goes and says "oh after watching subs I changed my mind".

Every.

Freaking.

Episode.

Seriously guys, be patient. :rolleyes:

[Janifuu]

There was nothing forced.

You know, this happens every episode week after week after week, where people start making random criticisms about episode they don't even understand
then goes and says "oh after watching subs I changed my mind".

Every.

Freaking.

Episode.

Seriously guys, be patient. :rolleyes:

This :heh::heh:

[SageGaiGar]

There was nothing forced.

You know, this happens every episode week after week after week, where people start making random criticisms about episode they don't even understand
then goes and says "oh after watching subs I changed my mind".

Every.

Freaking.

Episode.

Seriously guys, be patient. :rolleyes:

But don't we have the right to make absolute statements based on flimsy evidence?

Oh wait.

[Deathscyther]

Great episode:)

They left some important details out and changed/cut out some pieces, but I understand that they did this because they:
A: don't have enough time to show everything;
B: were only given a basic outline of the novel;
C: are saving some things for the last episode.

Overall I think it was a good episode and I can't wait for the last one:)

[Kaisos Erranon]

And the usual people (http://blog.seiha.org/2009/03/toradora-24-forget-this-noise/#more-3180) are complaining in exactly the way I thought they would.

To be fair, it DOES seem forced without all the characterization leading up to it, and seems forced in the source material anyway, but...

Bah, I'll reserve personal judgments for when I watch the subs.

[typhonsentra]

The entire angle of Ryuuji feeling that he is a burden on his mother has been an important theme since the first scene of the first novel. It's what defines why he is the way he is. He works so hard at home making to help her. Yeah they should've incl;uded the inner monologues which state that this is how he feels but look back at previous episodes, they hint at it (19, when he first got the watch, look at his face when she tells him about it).

[Kaisos Erranon]

Hints really aren't enough here.

They really should have kept the internal monologues, in all honesty. Everything makes so much more SENSE that way.

[Kikuchi]

A really, really good episode.

Nothing was "forced" or whatever. People need to either :
- Stop watching without understanding, it won't do you any good;
- Stop watching with the novel constantly in mind. The anime being an adaptation doesn't mean it has to be a 1:1 carbon copy to be good, for Christ's sake.

[SageGaiGar]

Then we could TWO seasons worth of Toradora ^_^

[Kaisos Erranon]

- Stop watching with the novel constantly in mind. The anime being an adaptation doesn't mean it has to be a 1:1 carbon copy to be good, for Christ's sake.

This is true, and I fully support this statement, but I would like to point out something:

Why do you think the novels were popular in the first place?

[Deathscyther]

Hints really aren't enough here.

They really should have kept the internal monologues, in all honesty. Everything makes so much more SENSE that way.

They animated what they could with the time they had. And I think they did a pretty good job:D

If you want the full explanation behind all their actions, then read the novels;)

Anyways, let's stop this novel comparison now^^

P.S: they actually used the Minorin running scene from the OP XD

[SageGaiGar]

Question is how to animate a *ton* of monologues? It'd more picture show than animation. Or something close to White Album's style for 'thoughts'.

Oh and amusing link there to the 'usual suspects'.

[Miles Teg]

For people who wants more pictures : http://randomc.animeblogger.net/2009/03/18/toradora-24/

The comments on the blog are funny with people who were still thinking that a MinoriXRyuuji ending was possible :heh:

[Kaisos Erranon]

Question is how to animate a *ton* of monologues? It'd more picture show than animation. Or something close to White Album's style for 'thoughts'.

KyoAni does it fairly well when they need to, for example.

Lots of backgrounds, walking, (or in this show, cleaning) maybe a bit of SHAFT-ish style to it when other stuff is going on.

[SageGaiGar]

For people who wants more pictures : http://randomc.animeblogger.net/2009/03/18/toradora-24/

The comments on the blog are funny with people who were still thinking that a MinoriXRyuuji ending was possible :heh:

Oh this site is comedy gold in the comments section. And you've ninja'd me XD

Aye Kaisos, though they've been pushing the limits already trying to fit things in this series. I'm grateful to roan for the summaries of the noves.

[Kaisos Erranon]

The comments on the blog are funny with people who were still thinking that a MinoriXRyuuji ending was possible :heh:

Pisses me off more than anything else.

What right do they have to complain about a show that isn't theirs to do anything with?


Aye Kaisos, though they've been pushing the limits already trying to fit things in this series. I'm grateful to roan for the summaries of the noves.

If people need to have read the novels to understand the show, the show has failed utterly.

That's all I can say.

[SageGaiGar]

Pisses me off more than anything else.

What right do they have to complain about a show that isn't theirs to do anything with?



If people need to have read the novels to understand the show, the show has failed utterly.

That's all I can say.

Damnit now this is going into clannad territory of "You need to have read the source material"

I don't think it's entirely the case with Toradora. It helps to have a firmer grasp of the novels, but the show can be watched without them.

I can see where this might be a problem with being 'spoiled'. Or same thing with ignorence/innocence.

[Fran~]

There was nothing forced.

You know, this happens every episode week after week after week, where people start making random criticisms about episode they don't even understand
then goes and says "oh after watching subs I changed my mind".

Every.

Freaking.

Episode.

Seriously guys, be patient. :rolleyes:

I second that...

and dont forget that this is a Light Novel who is ADAPTED to Anime and Manga.

[Tango337]

Maybe they are leaving the kiss for next episode where "that scene" happens? If they still don't show one...damn it all.

[Kikuchi]

Why do you think the novels were popular in the first place?

Irrelevant, as what is pictured in the anime is more than enough to make it a memorable series.

You NEED to stop comparing the novel and the anime. They're the same story told by different mediums. They don't have to be a 1:1 copy dammit.
I don't know, think LOTR for instance : a sucky adaptation, three epic movies which are sure to captivate people who didn't knew the original.
(Bad, bad, BAD comparison, since I think Toradora's adaptation is way better, I just couldn't find anything better)

I see you're constantly bringing up inner monologues and KyoAni, but do you seriously think all light novels adaptation should be done Haruhi style ? :|

And the kiss thing is silly, alright. But since I'm watching a japanese school romance anime, I'm kinda... not surprised.
If you REALLY want silly things, Clannad is ten times worse (and that's coming from someone who loved it).

[wistfulloner]

This is, in a way, the final episode. Nothing more needs to be said about Taiga and Ryuji's relationship, everything is pretty much set; EP25 will be more of an epilogue. And that is what made me feel a bit sad after the final scene.

The art style of this episode changed noticeably, and it reminds me of, how should I put it, film noir? :heh:

I'm a bit confused with the themes of this episode. I mean, is it really acceptable for two 17 year olds to be eloping? The preview tells otherwise, but is it really that socially accepted there that even their friends will encourage them to do it? Excuse me for not experiencing these things often, but it felt a bit "sudden".

What about their education, career, everything else? Sorry I sound like your grandmother, but its very much taboo to elope from where I'm at. And Taiga and Ryuji make it seem like such an easy decision.

Overall, an epic end to an epic series.

Didn't really get the parts with Yasuko.

Yasuko was disappointed with Ryuji for his disinterest in college, and he gets angry because he feels that she is imposing her dreams on him. Ryuji and Taiga run off, but not before Ryuji vented his anger. A saddened Yasuko then decides to run away from home.

If i'm not wrong, this is basically what happened.

EDIT: Can some tell me who is this Manji Midou guy and what is this clown doing in the cream?

[Raiga]

Wow... a lot of stuff happened, eh...

First few minutes... amazing. The OP caught me by surprise because by then I was so drawn in I'd completely forgotten they hadn't played it yet. XD

The plan to run away also kind of surprised me but I guess part of it is that high school is compulsory here. And impulsive teenagers and whatnot...

Still need to wait on subs for the subtleties of the dialog (no pun intended) but overall a great episode.

Also, mandatory random observation for this post... how is Ryuuji's cell phone still working after he fell into the river?

[Kaisos Erranon]

Irrelevant, as what is pictured in the anime is more than enough to make it a memorable series.

It's just funny, seeing the anime and loving it, and then realizing that it could have been SO MUCH BETTER.

Imagine Toradora had it actually been adapted properly... how amazing would it be then?


I see you're constantly bringing up inner monologues and KyoAni, but do you seriously think all light novels adaptation should be done Haruhi style ? :|

Yes, in all honesty.

[relentlessflame]

There is nothing "non-understandable" about this show at all, honestly. You just need to be able to piece symbolism and metaphor together a little bit more adeptly. I don't know if it's because people have a hard time translating symbolism when it's presented in Japanese, or if people would have a hard time with it in English too. But Ryuuji's feelings are not exactly obscure -- you just need to connect the dots. I don't think we should need the pablum of "tell me exactly what you're feeling before you do anything so that I understand what's going on". Because, heck, as a teenager, does anyone ever see things that clearly? In the light novel, your entire "picture" of the characters is in words (well, and the occasional image). In the anime, there are plenty of other cues -- like facial expressions, tone of voice, body language, symbolic imagery, musical cues, and so on. It isn't unreasonable or poorly done to expect viewers to catch those, it just requires you to pay more attention. If you connect the dots, there is only one reasonable answer, and there has been all along. People just need to stop reacting and start reflecting (and as aohige said, maybe waiting for the subs in some cases would help :heh: ).

[typhonsentra]

To Raiga:

The water was shallow, and the pocket he pulled it from wasn't fully submerged.

[Kaisos Erranon]

It isn't unreasonable or poorly done to expect viewers to catch those, it just requires you to pay more attention. If you connect the dots, there is only one reasonable answer, and there has been all along. People just need to stop reacting and start reflecting (and as aohige said, maybe waiting for the subs in some cases would help :heh: ).

Then why is everyone everywhere except here complaining it had "no setup"?

Besides, even if you have visual cues and all that, they really did leave it a lot more ambiguous than the books, simply because we get to see into the thoughts of the characters.

The anime skipped this over almost COMPLETELY. No amount of visual cues will make up for this.


Also, mandatory random observation for this post... how is Ryuuji's cell phone still working after he fell into the river?

Japanese products are superior? :heh:

I dunno. Plot device, I guess.

[SageGaiGar]

There is nothing "non-understandable" about this show at all, honestly. You just need to be able to piece symbolism and metaphor together a little bit more adeptly. I don't know if it's because people have a hard time translating symbolism when it's presented in Japanese, or if people would have a hard time with it in English too. But Ryuuji's feelings are not exactly obscure -- you just need to connect the dots. I don't think we should need the pablum of "tell me exactly what you're feeling before you do anything so that I understand what's going on". Because, heck, as a teenager, does anyone ever see things that clearly? In the light novel, your entire "picture" of the characters is in words (well, and the occasional image). In the anime, there are plenty of other cues -- like facial expressions, tone of voice, body language, symbolic imagery, musical cues, and so on. It isn't unreasonable or poorly done to expect viewers to catch those, it just requires you to pay more attention. If you connect the dots, there is only one reasonable answer, and there has been all along. People just need to stop reacting and start reflecting (and as aohige said, maybe waiting for the subs in some cases would help :heh: ).

I say all of us who can't understand Japanese should wait until the subs come out Thurs/Fri. :uhoh:

Thanks, seems like critical thinking isn't something taught much lately.

For wistfulloner
They are currently not thinking. That's what is really up with the elopement. Their friends seemed a little :twitch: at first. Seemed more like they wanted to give them a place where they could decompress. Hopefully Ryuuji's grandparents can talk a bit of sense into them.

[aohige]

I'm a bit confused with the themes of this episode. I mean, is it really acceptable for two 17 year olds to be eloping? The preview tells otherwise, but is it really that socially accepted there that even their friends will encourage them to do it? Excuse me for not experiencing these things often, but it felt a bit "sudden".

What about their education, career, everything else? Sorry I sound like your grandmother, but its very much taboo to elope from where I'm at. And Taiga and Ryuji make it seem like such an easy decision.


The answer to your question is, no, obviously no, it's not acceptable.
As a matter of fact, the subject is brought up in the show by the characters themselves on how rediculous the idea is.
I thought that was pretty obvious from the lines.


Yasuko was disappointed with Ryuji for his disinterest in college, and he gets angry because he feels that she is imposing her dreams on him. Ryuji and Taiga run off, but not before Ryuji vented his anger. A saddened Yasuko then decides to run away from home.

If i'm not wrong, this is basically what happened.

Well, that was what the argument lead to, but that's not why Yasuko was yelling at him at first.
She was upset that Ryuuji lied to her about the part-time job. He took over the job at the cake store without telling her. She told him not to take up part time jobs, and she felt betrayed.


EDIT: Can some tell me who is this Manji Midou guy and what is this clown doing in the cream?

He's pissed because Ryuuji x Ami didn't happen, and decided to retaliate in a rather immature manner. :rolleyes:


Then why is everyone everywhere except here complaining it had "no setup"?


Define "everyone everywhere".
Do you mean "everywhere" as in English forums and blogs that may or may not have full understanding of Japanese?

That's not "everyone everywhere".

I've been surfing Japanese blogs on reviews, and only handful of them are overly critical about this episode.
Do you not think, that these blogs have a lot more credibility than English ones since, oh, I dunno, they fully understand what's going on? :rolleyes:
(I avoid 2ch anime threads, because they are usually over critical about EVERYTHING, because of few "anti" haters who spam every thread)

[danin8r44]

Personally, I didn't like this episode. It felt like they were trying to cram way too much into a single episode. The plot became so rushed that it almost became incoherent. You have such dramatic changes in mood, thoughts, and actions of the characters in such a short time while every other episode pulled out the feelings slowly and carefully. I dunno this episode just felt way to rushed like they wanted to have a dramatic ending but hadn't properly set themselves up for it.......

EDIT: I know people are going to say this isn't the ending, but it is the first part of the end and I feel it should have been more spread out.

[Deathscyther]

Then why is everyone everywhere except here complaining it had "no setup"?

I dunno. Plot device, I guess.

The anime had more than enough setup for the events that happened this episode....the novels only did it EVEN better imo ;)

Everything that happened this episode makes perfect sense, even if you haven't read the novels. The story has been leading up to this episode. You could say that reading the novels gives you more explanation for the actions of Ryuuji and the others than the anime does, but reading the novels isn't vital to understand these actions.

I guess this is what I've been trying to say:p

[relentlessflame]

Then why is everyone everywhere except here complaining it had "no setup"?Because they're the worst of all at reacting and not reflecting. The reason why I usually avoid episode threads (and get annoyed at bloggers and blog commenters in episode posts) is because it gives people tunnel vision. They become unable to connect the dots beyond the scope of the episode itself, and don't think of events in the way they were intended -- as waypoints along a giant connected map that we call "the story". They get so fixated on these minute, useless details that they miss the actual purpose, moral, message, and theme of the story. It encourages people to just "speak their mind" without thinking it through. And there are enough others out there that just say whatever's on the top of their head that it gets others thinking that their gut reaction was reasonable. People would rather loudly exclaim that they're right than carefully think through why they might, in fact, be wrong.

Besides, even if you have visual cues and all that, they really did leave it a lot more ambiguous than the books, simply because we get to see into the thoughts of the characters.

The anime skipped this over almost COMPLETELY. No amount of visual cues will make up for this.As someone who has never read the novels, I fail to see what's so ambiguous about this show. If the show's purpose, moral, and message aren't clear to you, then go right now and re-watch episodes 1 & 2. Those two episodes, in the context of everything we've seen so far, are everything we need to understand about the story and the ending. It's perfectly symmetrical and well-connected. Since I haven't read the novels, I can't say what is or isn't in there that may or may not be interesting, helpful, or useful. But I can say that the anime adaptation is providing everything I need to get a full understanding of all of the issues facing the central characters. And that, to me, is what I want.

I've seen anime adaptations when I've read the source material beforehand, and know about cases where the adaptation can skimp on helpful details. However, even in those cases, the answer is the same: the anime contains everything you need to understand what's going on. If you get too fixated on the other details, you're probably missing the real point.

[Kaisos Erranon]

Hey, I get it, and I never said I didn't like the show.

Actually, I love it.

I just think it could have been done a lot better, is all.

[Vexx]

1) I think relentlessflame is being far too gracious to the "no setup" crowd :) Really, they can't be troutslapped hard enough for simply failing to pay attention and frankly, I think there's a lot of subversive "shipping" still trolling around from those who never understood this was never a "harem choose the girl" adventure.
(yes, I think an equally interesting story could have been told with Ami but that is left to "alternative history doujinshi")

2) yes, its quite instructive that the general reaction amongst Japanese viewers seems to be quite positive -- probably because they tend to pay closer attention and get the nuance and cultural undertones that foreigner "Joe Duh" Blog Commenter utterly fails at.

3) My assessment of the anime is that it has stood on its own quite successfully. Do I think the novels tell a deeper more content-rich story? well, duh. But this is an anime adaptation. Some things the visual medium does better than the novels and in other aspects it is handicapped compared to the novels. So it goes....

[Janifuu]

Not to sound biased in anyway though I speculate that the majority of those who would complain about the outcome of the story consisted mainly kids/pre-teens (aka the more immature audience) who simply like to play shipping wars and not observe the story from more adult and insightful prospective. They won't know what development means when they themselves haven't developed nor lived enough life to know what its like. I see the majority who understand and support the logic in that Ryuuji and Taiga belong to eachother derives from a more mature, life-experienced audience, for a lack of a better way to put it. Forgive my rambling, just a thought I had >_>

[Kaisos Erranon]

I should really shut up until the subs come out so I can make valid judgments...

[danin8r44]

1) I think relentlessflame is being far too gracious to the "no setup" crowd :) Really, they can't be troutslapped hard enough for simply failing to pay attention and frankly, I think there's a lot of subversive "shipping" still trolling around from those who never understood this was never a "harem choose the girl" adventure.
(yes, I think an equally interesting story could have been told with Ami but that is left to "alternative history doujinshi")

2) My assessment of the anime is that it has stood on its own quite successfully. Do I think the novels tell a deeper more content-rich story? well, duh. But this is an anime adaptation. Some things the visual medium does better than the novels and in other aspects it is handicapped compared to the novels. So it goes....

The problem isn't that there was "no setup". It is that the little set up that there is occurred primarily within this episode. It just felt unnatural for something so dramatic, almost to the point of it feeling unnatural, happened with only one episode supporting the drama out of a whole batch of 24. I don't think there is "no setup" just "hasty setup".

[Kaisos Erranon]

The problem isn't that there was "no setup". It is that the little set up that there is occurred primarily within this episode. It just felt unnatural for something so dramatic, almost to the point of it feeling unnatural, happened with only one episode supporting the drama out of a whole batch of 24. I don't think there is "no setup" just "hasty setup".

In regards to the whole Yasuko thing, I have to agree.

It's just this episode and last episode where she actually became important. It's... sudden.

The Ryuuji/Taiga thing has had a hell of a lot of setup though.

[danin8r44]

In regards to the whole Yasuko thing, I have to agree.

It's just this episode and last episode where she actually became important. It's... sudden.

The Ryuuji/Taiga thing has had a hell of a lot of setup though.

Yes but in one episode he gets confessed to by the too hyper girl, rejects, confesses about Taiga, AND runs away with her......... I think those events could have been better timed if not just spaced out a bit more. I know they had a strong relationship building the entire anime, but the pacing was just sorta POW outta nowhere.

[VRMN]

Ultimately, I liked this episode, but the developments were too many and came too fast for my liking. For about the last third of it, I was in "o_O I must not have heard that right...what!?" mode, which I don't like to be in. They did too much in this episode, that's all there is to it. I don't know how the books handled it, but...yeah.

I mean, I read some poster commenting on the maturity of their relationship and all that, and while there's some of that (and the pairing makes a lot of sense), I have a hard time digesting the fact that the story went from Taiga running away from her feelings to "This is my wife!" in 24 minutes. There has to have been some way to make this feel more natural and less insane. Yeah, they're eloping, but the whole thing, from Taiga to Minorin to Ami to Yasuko to them running away...it just went too fast for my tastes. It feels like this should have been at least two episodes, just to space it out a little.

That said, all in all, the (HUGE) pacing issues put aside, I enjoyed the episode. I'm interested in seeing how this all wraps up next week, but this episode is only getting an eight out of me.

[Vexx]

The problem isn't that there was "no setup". It is that the little set up that there is occurred primarily within this episode. It just felt unnatural for something so dramatic, almost to the point of it feeling unnatural, happened with only one episode supporting the drama out of a whole batch of 24. I don't think there is "no setup" just "hasty setup".

Aye, I wasn't referring to your post (apologies if you thought so) because I have a similar regret about the series --- it has to cram a LOT of ideas into an absurdly tight time budget. These last 2 or 3 episodes deserve 6 episodes of time. So Ryuuji's explosion at Ya-chan wasn't telegraphed well (as in you wouldn't think it from the relatively mild discussion with the teacher and his afterthoughts).

I was focused on the utterly lame noises I'm reading on randomc and other forums where people are acting like they just got blindsided by everything. Seriously about half or better of the anime fans do get it (much better than the 90% humans-are-idiots rule). But you just have to stand in awe of those who basically proclaim they don't actually follow the relatively straightforward plot.

[SageGaiGar]

Setup's always been there, they've just been too stubborn to state their actual feelings.

[Kaisos Erranon]

I have a hard time digesting the fact that the story went from Taiga running away from her feelings to "This is my wife!" in 24 minutes.

I can totally see Ryuuji doing this though.

He's the sort of person to just accept this kind of development and go along with it.


I was focused on the utterly lame noises I'm reading on randomc and other forums where people are acting like they just got blindsided by everything. Seriously about half or better of the anime fans do get it (much better than the 90% humans-are-idiots rule). But you just have to stand in awe of those who basically proclaim they don't actually follow the relatively straightforward plot.

People only see what they want to, right?

A lot of people on RC only pay attention to the scenes with Ami in them, it seems.

[relentlessflame]

Hey, I get it, and I never said I didn't like the show.

Actually, I love it.

I just think it could have been done a lot better, is all.And I'm not saying that because I want you to like or not like the show. That's totally up to you! My only point is that, even though you may have a valid argument re: things missing from the anime (I don't know), that doesn't mean the show is incomprehensible, hard to follow, or otherwise lacking in relevant detail. Because otherwise, there'd be no way for anyone who hasn't read the novels to "get it", and I don't think the evidence supports that assumption. That's really all I'm saying.

Totally get what you're saying about "it could have been done better" -- everyone has an opinion about these sorts of things. But, from my vantage point, I'd say that even so, the writers did a fine job given the time available (maybe that last part is the operative part of the phrase). So in the end, in my ignorance, I can tentatively agree. Heck, I think many of us would agree that it would already be better if next week weren't already the end! :p


Not to sound biased in anyway though I speculate that the majority of those who would complain about the outcome of the story consisted mainly kids/pre-teens (aka the more immature audience) who simply like to play shipping wars and not observe the story from more adult and insightful prospective. They won't know what development means when they themselves haven't developed nor lived enough life to know what its like. I see the majority who understand and support the logic in that Ryuuji and Taiga belong to eachother derives from a more mature, life-experienced audience, for a lack of a better way to put it. Forgive my rambling, just a thought I had >_>I hesitate on the one hand, because I definitely think that anyone, regardless of age, can be reflective and insightful. And, likewise, I know many people who should have more "life experience" that seem to demonstrate absolutely no need to evidence that online. (As Vexx said, I'm probably being a bit too gracious here... :heh: )

What annoys me is the whole culture that seems to encourage this sort of speak-before-thinking attitude, and acts like because they have an opinion about something there must absolutely be a flaw in whatever they're criticizing simply because they don't like it. That's nonsense. No blogger or forum poster is going to convince me, just by the virtue of their having an opinion, that they know more about good writing than the actual people who wrote the show. I guess it's sort of the old "everyone's a critic" bit, except that it doesn't help when those people are also both arrogant and ignorant. In general, I would love to see less outrage and more reasoned analysis, but clearly this isn't the way to feed one's ego online. People just want to be told "you're right, that was so totally stupid and wrong, and it's the show's fault for being poor!" rather than "the show may be just fine; maybe you should watch it again to pick up on all the things you missed the first time and think about it". More often than not, the problem is the latter and not the former. Anyway, pipe dreams...

[typhonsentra]

One thing I actually was surprised by though is how strongly Minori apparently liked Ryuuji, and how she acted surprised when he decided to go with her and how hurt she acted when he said he wanted to be with Taiga. Up until this point I saw no signs that she wasn't satisfied with her decision and I thought she was fully prepared for everything it entailed.

[aohige]

I hesitate on the one hand, because I definitely think that anyone, regardless of age, can be reflective and insightful. And, likewise, I know many people who should have more "life experience" that seem to demonstrate absolutely no need to evidence that online. (As Vexx said, I'm probably being a bit too gracious here... :heh: )

What annoys me is the whole culture that seems to encourage this sort of speak-before-thinking attitude, and acts like because they have an opinion about something there must absolutely be a flaw in whatever they're criticizing simply because they don't like it. That's nonsense. No blogger or forum poster is going to convince me, just by the virtue of their having an opinion, that they know more about good writing than the actual people who wrote the show. I guess it's sort of the old "everyone's a critic" bit, except that it doesn't help when those people are also both arrogant and ignorant. In general, I would love to see less outrage and more reasoned analysis, but clearly this isn't the way to feed one's ego online. People just want to be told "you're right, that was so totally stupid and wrong, and it's the show's fault for being poor!" rather than "the show may be just fine; maybe you should watch it again to pick up on all the things you missed the first time and think about it". More often than not, the problem is the latter and not the former. Anyway, pipe dreams...

I agree with everything you said, especially on people who insists (and tries to convince others) that they know so much about "good writing" and "bad writing". Oh I hate that phrase...
And unfortunately, this is internet. The place where we argue about stupid crap. Therefore, it's mandatory to have e-peens the size of Eiffel Tower, and thus, must convince others of our superior knowledge of how to write or direct a story. :rolleyes:

Well, I agree about everything other than age part.
I hate kids. I eat babies, and use teenagers as slaves.

But don't tell anyone. :uhoh:

[Janifuu]

Oh I should explain - dependent on the individual, certainly anyone of any age can be reflective and insightful, just as you say relentlessflame. I tend to sometimes over analyze things; due to that though, from what I've picked up, the majority of shippers complaining about the series' outcome deem to be that of a younger audience given their "forum age" and what not. It's not a very plausible assumption to make I know, but judging by the context of their posts and their thoughtless declarations of which pairing should "win" simply due to their preference, its hard personally for me to not interpret it in any other way than that they come across as an immature audience.

[danin8r44]

I agree with everything you said, especially on people who insists (and tries to convince others) that they know so much about "good writing". Oh I hate that phrase...
And unfortunately, this is internet. The place where we argue about stupid crap. Therefore, we have e-peens the size of Eiffel Tower, and thus, must convince others of our superior knowledge of how to write or direct a story. :rolleyes:

Well, I agree about everything other than age part.
I hate kids. I eat babies, and use teenagers as slaves.

But don't tell anyone. :uhoh:

My opinion is that good writing is entirely subjective. The point of a forum is to trade opinions and ideas as well as facts, so I think its fine to say what is or isn't good writing as long as you don't say the other person is wrong as well. For instance I thought Moby Dick was horrible writing but apparently its a classic, in the same way some people say this Tora Dora episode was written well and I think it didn't flow well with the other episodes. I am glad it didn't end with too hyper girl being the heroine though...

EDIT: Don't worry I eat babies too. XD

[relentlessflame]

Oh I should explain - dependent on the individual, certainly anyone of any age can be reflective and insightful, just as you say relentlessflame. I tend to sometimes over analyze things; due to that though, from what I've picked up, the majority of shippers complaining about the series' outcome deem to be that of a younger audience given their "forum age" and what not. It's not a very plausible assumption to make I know, but judging by the context of their posts and their thoughtless declarations of which pairing should "win" simply due to their preference, its hard personally for me to not interpret it in any other way than that they come across as an immature audience.No, don't worry -- I knew what you meant, and I actually think that you're probably right. As an illustration, an astute commenter on one of those famous blogs pointed out today that they appreciated Toradora's theme of the difference between a crush and the various forms of love. But how can one recognize and appreciate this theme if you're at a point in life where you can't really tell the difference yourself? This is definitely a story (and adaptation) written by an adult reflecting back on high school. If you're not at a stage in life where you can similarly look back and recognize everything for what it is, I can see how it'd be harder to understand.

This episode is actually a perfect example. All the people who are like "this is so sudden", "it makes no sense", and "where did this come from"... this is so what being a teenager is like. Maybe it's because I'm the oldest with two younger siblings, so got to witness this same phenomenon? To Taiga and Ryuuji, this so makes sense and is all the world to them in this moment -- they're going to do this, and they're going to prove to everyone that they don't need anyone to tell them how to live their lives! They're going to be free from everything that holds them back! Because, mom, (dad,) just accept that I'm an adult already! But they're not. Obviously not. Painfully not. And this is absolutely going to dawn on them sooner or later. But for right now -- in this one single moment -- they've found each other, and that's all they need! World be damned! The fact that it makes no sense, is sudden, etc. is exactly the point because this is what it is to be a teenager. It only makes sense at the time and, in retrospect, was totally stupid. And it's only later on that you actually figure that out (and you spend the whole rest of your life "getting that" more and more).

So anyway, all that to say, I don't think you've over-analyzed at all -- I was just trying to give people the benefit of the doubt. In the end, it really is that sort of show that makes more sense upon reflection. And, in truth, maybe it does help if you have something to reflect about in your own life first.

Well, I agree about everything other than age part.
I hate kids. I eat babies, and use teenagers as slaves.

But don't tell anyone. :uhoh:Ah, crap. "Honey? Better take the kids down to the cellar. We've got trolls..." :p

(Speaking of which, have you noticed that forum trolling has changed over the last few years? It used to be that people would come into forums and post negative opinions only to get people riled up. Nowadays, you get the same sort of negative opinions, and the person seems to really mean it! :heh: )

[Kaisos Erranon]

(Speaking of which, have you noticed that forum trolling has changed over the last few years? It used to be that people would come into forums and post negative opinions only to get people riled up. Nowadays, you get the same sort of negative opinions, and the person seems to really mean it! :heh: )

It really isn't trolling, in which case. It's just people illustrating the GIFT theory (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19/).

[Neki Ecko]

But seriously, like relentlessflame and others been saying about people complaining about being blindsided because of the fast moving context, You have to remember that they have been doing that since first episode, there is alot of context(10 Volumes) they have to put into 25 episodes in less than 30 min each. Besides I think J.C. Staff did a excellent job on doing that, and I believe that this is the best series that J.C. Staff ever did.

No, don't worry -- I knew what you meant, and I actually think that you're probably right. As an illustration, an astute commenter on one of those famous blogs pointed out today that they appreciated Toradora's theme of the difference between a crush and the various forms of love. But how can one recognize and appreciate this theme if you're at a point in life where you can't really tell the difference yourself? This is definitely a story (and adaptation) written by an adult reflecting back on high school. If you're not at a stage in life where you can similarly look back and recognize everything for what it is, I can see how it'd be harder to understand.

This episode is actually a perfect example. All the people who are like "this is so sudden", "it makes no sense", and "where did this come from"... this is so what being a teenager is like. Maybe it's because I'm the oldest with two younger siblings, so got to witness this same phenomenon? To Taiga and Ryuuji, this so makes sense and is all the world to them in this moment -- they're going to do this, and they're going to prove to everyone that they don't need anyone to tell them how to live their lives! They're going to be free from everything that holds them back! Because, mom, (dad,) just accept that I'm an adult already! But they're not. Obviously not. Painfully not. And this is absolutely going to dawn on them sooner or later. But for right now -- in this one single moment -- they've found each other, and that's all they need! World be damned! The fact that it makes no sense, is sudden, etc. is exactly the point because this is what it is to be a teenager. It only makes sense at the time and, in retrospect, was totally stupid. And it's only later on that you actually figure that out (and you spend the whole rest of your life "getting that" more and more).

So anyway, all that to say, I don't think you've over-analyzed at all -- I was just trying to give people the benefit of the doubt. In the end, it really is that sort of show that makes more sense upon reflection. And, in truth, maybe it does help if you have something to reflect about in your own life first.


I totally agree with you on that one, sometimes when we forget that we was once teenagers ourselves. For this series, you will have to read outsides the lines and reflect about it.

[MissInformed]

Oooh, I am looking forward to this episode. I don't have a problem with the Yasuko thing. It seems plausible to me from what we've seen so far. Like one of those bottle bottle bottle bottle EXPLODE kind of deals.

What I'm curious to see is how they work out these Ryuuji x Taiga developments. I never doubted from the start it would wind up Ryuuji x Taiga, but WOW what a long way to come in a single episode. :) I know it won't be 100% rational...I'm guessing that's kind of the point. Shooouuuld be interesting. :D

[Windows X]

If you can enjoying watching Spice and Wolf, I think you should love this ones as fast-pacing version. Tatsuyuki Nagai did very good job in putting all pieces altogether in anime without trainwrecking it like other famous animes. However, his point of view in serializing this story doesn't work well with non-adult audiences.

[Freya]

Whoa!! Ryuuji introduces Taiga as his bride/fiancée???

[Windows X]

Seeing embarrased Taiga in that scene is priceless :D

[aldw]

But seriously, like relentlessflame and others been saying about people complaining about being blindsided because of the fast moving context, You have to remember that they have been doing that since first episode, there is alot of context(10 Volumes) they have to put into 25 episodes in less than 30 min each. Besides I think J.C. Staff did a excellent job on doing that, and I believe that this is the best series that J.C. Staff ever did.



I totally agree with you on that one, sometimes when we forget that we was once teenagers ourselves. For this series, you will have to read outsides the lines and reflect about it.

Well, teenagers would have at least one serious date before eloping... :eyespin:

[Tango337]

They have practically been dating the entire time.

[Raiga]

Well, teenagers would have at least one serious date before eloping... :eyespin:

Well they have been practically acting like a married couple since episode 2...

Hey, it's nothing compared to what Romeo and Juliet did. :P

EDIT: Wow I type slow.

[crystalalien87]

i thought they were suppose to kiss...?
didnt in the novel they kissed at the bridge?

[Tango337]

It got changed to where they were about to and then the phone rings bullcrap. Maybe they will show it next episode?

[crystalalien87]

lol thats messed up...^^^i knew something was wrong when i was looking at the screen shots and i didnt see a kiss scene...

[typhonsentra]

The director thinks he needs to save the first kiss for the last episode for dramatic effect but the way he's left things is just confusing. They're deeply in love and engaged but..... they haven't kissed each other yet. Really stupid move on his/her part.

[Raiga]

Aaaah no novel spoilers without tags!

Oh yeah, forgot to mention earlier... when Taiga was talking about what Yasuko said, about them being a family... kinda funny, since I just rewatched episode 14 today, the episode in which Yasuko said that line (while waiting for the torrent to finish, to boot).

It's like that Jung theory... what was it called... synchronicity.

[apr]

Uhhhh, I think people is getting the wrong idea about this.
I think he used it engaged to tell his grandparents, so they wont get worry about her, even know he should say that Taiga was his best friend or girlfriend, they are not offical engaged or anything like that

No, they're engaged alright. At least in the book. Well, engaged-ish; I don't know if you need official approval for these things in Japan.

[typhonsentra]

I couldn't understand much of what was going on but....

Didn't he ask her to marry him after he fell off the bridge? That's the way it was described in the summaries, and this visit to the grandparents wasn't decided upon until later. She really is his fiancee at this point, he really is/was planning to marry her.

[Peanutbutter003]

What the hell?!?! No kiss??? :upset:

And I felt that the Yasuko/Taiga's mum scene was really forced in. Ryuuji/Yasuko was understandable but Taiga's mum? She just appeared out of nowhere and we have Taiga pouring out her family problems. There was entirely no setup at all.

Otherwise, and the omission of the kiss, everything was perfect. I was kinda shocked when Minorin offered her entire savings to the couple to elope. Wow, you really like them huh? You worked so hard for that, for your own dreams and you just gave it away like that. You dun need subs to understand how Minorin felt.

Are they trying for an anime-original ending? That's what I initially felt but maybe not. However, I feel it should not be counted out.

6 pages already!?!?! :heh:

[Neki Ecko]

What the hell?!?! No kiss??? :upset:

And I felt that the Yasuko/Taiga's mum scene was really forced in. Ryuuji/Yasuko was understandable but Taiga's mum? She just appeared out of nowhere and we have Taiga pouring out her family problems. There was entirely no setup at all.

Otherwise, and the omission of the kiss, everything was perfect. I was kinda shocked when Minorin offered her entire savings to the couple to elope. Wow, you really like them huh? You worked so hard for that, for your own dreams and you just gave it away like that. You dun need subs to understand how Minorin felt.

Are they trying for an anime-original ending? That's what I initially felt but maybe not. However, I feel it should not be counted out.

6 pages already!?!?! :heh:

Oh come on,

Dont worry, they will Kissed in the next episode, besides it be much better to do it at the end not before the ending.

[Peanutbutter003]

If there is no kiss in this episode, I don't see how "that" will be animated. It will most likely be scrapped the way I see it.

And here I am, anticipating the actions of a hot-blooded male with raging hormones and this is what we get? :eyespin:

[MeoTwister5]

It now begs the question of whether or not Ryuuji will have to bend down or Taiga will have to stand on a box, because the height difference is too large to solve with high heels.

[SageGaiGar]

It now begs the question of whether or not Ryuuji will have to bend down or Taiga will have to stand on a box, because the height difference is too large to solve with high heels.



Solution 'Felli-kick'

Or she 'trips into him' being so clumsy.

[apr]

Maybe this is a stupid idea, but what the hell. I discussed the episode with a friend who actually watches the anime (I don't) and tried to describe from memory what happens in the novel. Since some of you may be interested in knowing what the differences are, I've decided to post the conversation here. Just ignore the entire thing if you think it's worthless. Keep in mind that I'm skipping a lot of details and scenes and whatnot because I'm just telling it as I remember it, and I may have understood things incorrectly.

<apr> Well, alright, they skipped a lot of content in the anime obviously.
<apr> Content I enjoyed, too. Oh well.
<apr> Hmm.
<apr> Well, basically, on the bridge, Taiga is checking her wallet and counts what money she has, since they're planning to take the train, and Ryuuji has no money at all (because he threw his pay check at Yacchan).
<apr> Obviously a gust of wind comes and the money goes down into the river.
<Friend> They lost the money Ryuuji earned during the mothers scene
<apr> Anyway, money's lost, and then she explains how she can't just withdraw more money because her account is empty. And then she explains how her dad's lost a long on-going lawsuit and has run off somewhere or whatever, and how there's no more money/job there and this is why her mother suddenly pops up to snatch her away.
<apr> (so it's not quite so much "take" as "save", as the apartment is no longer hers)
<Friend> mmhmm
<apr> Um, I don't remember everything that happens, but Ryuuji decides to kiss her.
<Friend> yea, that kiss didn't happen
<apr> And there's some really nice text on how it feels to kiss a girl for the first time when you're in love. Made me flashback 10 years.
<apr> And he realizes there's no way he can stop himself from wanting to do it again and longer and deeper and more and whatever, ya dig? So he backs off. And off. And off, and eventually hits the bridge rail.
<apr> And, well, this is where it gets funny in the middle of weird stuff.
<apr> Basically, Ryuuji told his mother "it'd been better if I was never born!"
<apr> Right? At least in the book.
<apr> And what Taiga sees is "Love of my life says he doesn't want to live; he kisses me; he walks off to the bridge handrail."
<Friend> Yea, he said something like that
<Friend> In the anime Taiga thought suicide as well
<apr> She walks up to him and beats him over the head and calls him an idiot, and he eventually realizes she thought he was about to jump to his death. Then there's a little hitting accident and he falls off.
<Friend> yea, that happened
<apr> Well, Taiga's screaming and he's drowning and then they notice how the water is only up to his waist.
<apr> And something I don't remember. He asks her to marry him, she gets pissed off because she thinks he's trying to be a selfless oaf who just wants to save her, and he says he loves her.
<apr> And she jumps into his arms.
<apr> And then Ami finds them walking around in a freezing river.
<apr> She's been jogging around looking for them, because Kitamura called her (and Minori) about finding them, after Taiga's mother arrived at his home asking where they might be.
<apr> Ami helps the freezing couple out of the river and gives them her jacket. Then Kitamura and Minori arrive (since Ami's called them to say they're at the bridge) and Minori gives Ami her own jacket, then Kitamura gives Minori his jacket, and they go off to Ami's apartment where there's showering.
<apr> They're sitting in a kotatsu when Taiga dozes off and the others discuss what they can do.
<apr> Ryuuji does a shitty joke about screaming about love at the center of the earth or whatever, and Ami bursts into tears and hands him the key to her beach house.
<apr> Anyway, they decide not to run away right then and there because the trains stopped going there anyway, and instead they're supposed to meet at school the next morning, with Taiga convincing her mother to let her say goodbye.
<apr> As they all leave the house, Taiga's mother's Porsche is standing across the street and she takes Taiga away. Ryuuji starts having second thoughts, wondering if he'll ever see her again.
<apr> Then he goes home, finds the note and in an empty apartment, and flips the fuck out.
<Friend> so wait, what did the note actually say?
<apr> Beats on the furniture, breaks the wall, cries and screams about Taiga, etc, etc.
<Friend> yea, none of that happened in the anime
<apr> It's a map to the grandparental home with an address and the closest train station.
<apr> Oh, and the watch.
<apr> Right, so he starts cleaning the apartment.
<apr> All the while imagining he's a big dragon flying into the clouds and arriving at a savannah, where he sets an enormous table and it has seats for everyone (listing friends, parents, etc).
<apr> There's a bunch of stuff in his head about how he wants to live in a world where everyone's happy and you don't have to abandon anyone to be with anyone else.
<apr> It's pretty spaced out.
<apr> Eventually he falls asleep, heads to school, meets Minori at the old crossroads meeting place, no Taiga yet.
<apr> They arrive at school, meet Haruta and Noto and the pretty trio, no Taiga yet.
<apr> (Noto is really pissed about the whole girlfriend thing)
<apr> (Ryuuji decides not to tell him he's engaged)
<apr> So anyway, classroom time, and there's no teacher.
<apr> Two self-study classes and no teacher.
<Friend> They didn't do this classroom stuff in the anime
<Friend> Haruta just wonders where Taiga and Ryuuji are
<apr> Oh. Anyway, eventually Dokushin and Taiga come in and they've been crying. Dokushin starts telling the class how Taiga has to move and won't be with them anymore and she cries and then Haruta suddenly passes out with a scream.
<apr> Dokushin runs up to him and WHAM people start running out of the classroom (Taiga/Ryuuji first).
<apr> So no one quite knows where they are, since people are running every which way, and they get out of the school.
<apr> Dokushin goes back to the teachers' lounge to explain to Taiga's waiting mother that they've eloped.
<apr> The pregnant mother replies "Oh god, I think the baby is coming, from the shock!"
<apr> And Dokushin freaks out a bit, and asks "Really?!" and mother Taiga goes "No."
<apr> (this happens twice in the conversation, and is quite funny when not told by me)
<apr> Anyway, Dokushin convinces Mother to let them be, because there was a note left on Ryuuji's desk that said they'd contact them in two days.
<apr> And puts her job on the line.
<apr> (which is nice, because it fleshes out Dokushin as a trusting and nice teacher)
<apr> Meanwhile, Ryuuji tells Taiga that Yacchan is gone, and they decide to make everything right by heading to her parents' place instead, to find a way to get her back.
<apr> And they take the train there and Ryuuji can't bring himself to ring the doorbell.
<apr> Is that in the anime?
<Friend> nope
<Friend> well
<Friend> not the doorbell part
<apr> I don't know how far it goes in the episode.
<apr> So, er.
<Friend> the very last scene is Ryuuji introducing himself and Taiga to his grandparents
<apr> Ah...
<apr> Anyway, in the book, they're standing outside the door, and eventually Taiga tries to ring the doorbell herself, and they armwrestle a bit about it until Taiga screams I NEED TO USE THE BATHROOM and *ding dong*.
<apr> And no one's home.
<apr> Since it's 3pm.
<apr> Then Taiga goes catatonic because she needs to pee so badly, and Ryuuji starts carrying her toward the train station, hoping to find a toilet somewhere.
<apr> But ta-da, they run into a woman in her 50's whose face is all peachy and they realize it must be Yacchan's mother, and they eventually convince her that they're related and get let in, and granny (Sonoko) calls gramps (Seiji) who screams at her not to let them in since it must be a fraud, but Ryuuji shows the watch.
<apr> And Seiji comes home and he introduces Taiga as his fiancee and that's it, I guess.
<apr> In-between all these actual events, there are loads of pages of Ryuuji working through his emotions.
<apr> And it's quite dull. ._.

I'm very sorry about the chat log format, but it was so damned much text. And yes, I really type like this in chats.

[Raiga]

Height differential also poses quite the problem when it comes to cropping a banner out of a pic of the two standing next to each other. XD

If you manage to include both their faces it ends up looking so off proportion... that's why I gave up on trying.

[fish eric]

I'm very sorry about the chat log format, but it was so damned much text. And yes, I really type like this in chats.

Type like what? A regular human?



thanks btw it was informative since the subs aren't out yet.

[stormy001_M1A2]

I kinda like the scene where Ami kicks Ryuji with complicated expression after confirming his love for Taiga is genuine. It is like congratulations, happiness, envy, anger and bonding mixed into one.

Minorin take it pretty badly though despite her willingness to let him go.

The snowfight between 2 potential love interest of Ryuji is like catharsis for them. They somewhat reconciled to the truth and move on with their life after their own respective conflict with him. Nicely pulled off.

[apr]

A lot of people seem to be raging about Ryuuji proposing to Taiga, when they're so young and still in school and it's so early in their relationship and so on.

I think there's a reasonable explanation for this. (Note that I don't know about Japanese laws, and this is just a personal impression.)

In the novels, there's a very palpable sense of urgency: Taiga's mother is actively chasing after Ryuuji/Taiga to grab her daughter and move far, far away. She drives her Porsche after them on the streets, and they run away, making sure to use narrow alleys where cars can't drive while keeping a lookout for black vehicles, and later they also hop on different trains to shake off pursuers (excessively, perhaps). Taiga's mother also visits Kitamura and asks him where she can find them.

Now, Ryuuji is a young man, a few days away from turning 18, and over the course of a year he's grown incredibly attached and fallen in love with Taiga. She's still a minor, and now her mother appears out of nowhere and wants to break them apart, ripping his loved one right out of his life. Inner monologues and various scenes with crying/screaming make it abundantly clear that Ryuuji is very upset about this.

His solution is simple: Run away for a few days until he turns 18, then marry Taiga and move in with her. "WHAT?!" go most people watching. Why get married so soon? I believe it's because at age 17, Taiga is still a minor, and under the custody of her mother, who can move her wherever she wants. However, if Ryuuji marries her (I think girls have to be 16 in Japan), he most likely becomes her "guardian" and thus gains the right to live with her, in practice freeing her from the evil mother's grasp. This allows him and Taiga to stay together, and gives Taiga the opportunity to live a life in contact with her very precious friends.

Of course it's insane, and rash, and surprising. Ami even comments on this in the book, calling it a childish plan. But remember that Ryuuji grew up with a single mother who did exactly that: she ran away from home and gave birth to her son and lived in exile from her parental home. To him it's not a crazy, impossible occurrence - instead it's exactly what he's living proof of. Taiga, on the other hand, hates her parents and has always felt utterly betrayed by them, so to her it's the only way to be close to the people she really cares about, her friends and Ryuuji.


Right, well, I guess this is where someone knowledgeable comes in and tells me I'm wrong about how marriage and custodian laws work in Japan, and then you can declare me mentally unstable.


Type like what? A regular human?
A non-regular human, actually. I meant the usage of capital letters and punctuation, which is pretty rare in instant messaging.

[Peanutbutter003]

Nice explanation.

I say it's the kiss. The kiss that awoke Ryuuji to this beautiful doll in front of him. And he wants her. He can't lose her. He needs her.

And so the best solution he thought was marriage.

To me, it's not surprising, considering the circumstances. As said, he's only repeating what his own mother had done. To others, it's not "normal". To him, it's what he sees everyday. Different perception of reality, that's all.

[VRMN]

The problem is that this isn't the book, it's the anime. This sense of urgency is not there in the anime, with the threat of Taiga's mom being downplayed and thus it appears rash for the sake of being rash.

Now, I don't have that much of an issue with the plot taking this turn to be honest, it's more that they jammed in in with so much else. But, that said, "it was better in the original work" doesn't fly here any more than it flies with Clannad or Index or what have you. My opinion is that there's ultimately too much to digest (even if the episode is still really good despite this). Evidently, what they cut out here (the kiss, this stuff with Taiga's mom) really hurts the episode more than it helps it, because it could have helped solve some of my issues with the episode but didn't for whatever reason.

[Ryuou]

Right, well, I guess this is where someone knowledgeable comes in and tells me I'm wrong about how marriage and custodian laws work in Japan, and then you can declare me mentally unstable.
You're right about being able to marry at 16, but if you're a minor you need permission from the parent/guardian.

On to this episode, hmm...there are times during this series where it's good enough that I forget JC Staff is making it. Then there are times during Toradora! where it feels really average and/or really reminds me that JC Staff is the one making it.

The episode was interesting, but it had its problems. There were some parts in this episode that I thought were pretty good though.

Storks bring Japanese babies instead of sex
This is actually true and I've seen the company building.

[Vexx]

It now begs the question of whether or not Ryuuji will have to bend down or Taiga will have to stand on a box, because the height difference is too large to solve with high heels.


I can verify it is easily possible to kiss someone without extra help even if one party is 4'10" and the other is 6'0" --- not an issue (especially if you just pick them up). ;)

[Peanutbutter003]

Watched the Chinese subs.

Without taking into consideration what I understood from the novel summary, there's really no change in opinion I have with regards to my previous post on the raw. It's well-done, except in parts (The kiss, Taiga's mum etc)

Haruta's part was really quite unnecessary but I guess they do need to come up with something to explain their absence from school. (Though both Ryuuji and Taiga falling sick and taking leave from school is quite incredulous.)

And with subs, I must say Minorin's and Ami's feelings towards Ryuuji are really and truly resolved. Minorin's confession, what she really wants in life, her confirmation of Ryuuji's feelings towards Taiga, her rejection of the hairpin (and thus symbolising Ryuuji as well). Nice.

Ami's was also very well-done. Say it, go on, just say it. It's like she wants a confirmation and a conclusion to what she have been pining for but she realised there's no point to it in the end.

The bridge part, feels awkward at times. Without really knowing what was exactly said and felt at that part, I guess I can't really say much on that. Moral of the story, switch off your phone before you want to confess to anyone.

I don't quite get why there is the "To be Continued" in the end. Can anyone explain that?

[relentlessflame]

On to this episode, hmm...there are times during this series where it's good enough that I forget JC Staff is making it. Then there are times during Toradora! where it feels really average and/or really reminds me that JC Staff is the one making it.:heh: J.C.Staff is not some sort of giant monolith that somehow forces all of its shows down some sort of single creative pipeline called "suck". What they are is a relatively large production company that can coordinate multiple large-scale productions with a relatively reliable level of animation quality. Every show has different directors, writers, producers, and other key staff. If anything, I'd say they're a "workhorse" studio; their animation work is consistently decent, like a well-oiled machine. The actual quality of the *adaptation* depends on the directing and of the writing staff, and a lot of those people don't even work for J.C.Staff (or might even have been assigned by the producers without J.C.Staff's input). So... it's really not that simple. If a show's animation production values are good, then you should credit the animation director and the production studio. But if the story adaptation quality is good, then you should credit the director, planner, writers, and storyboard artists. If you want to predict whether a show will be good or bad, you have to look beyond just which studio is working on it and consider all the key players (producers, publishers, key staff, etc.)

It's like people like to have like the one face they can blame if they don't like something. With the Haruhi 2 stuff, at first it was Kyoto Animation and everyone was "grrrr Kyoto Animation", and then finally someone convinced them that it wasn't Kyoto Animation, it's Kadokawa, and so then everyone was "grrrr Kadokawa". Business politics aren't so clean-cut. There's not one single bad guy or one single person to whom all decisions must flow, really (even if there is on paper, it doesn't work that way in real life). It's a mess of contracts, and committees, and boardroom meetings, and stupid requirements imposed by people who don't know anything but somehow got into positions of power due to be related to the boss's cousin's friend. I suppose, at the end of the day, if you have to have a single person to blame, you could point to the director, but even then who knows what circumstances there were surrounding the production that were beyond his or her control. Life just isn't so simple.

And in other news...
I can verify it is easily possible to kiss someone without extra help even if one party is 4'10" and the other is 6'0" --- not an issue (especially if you just pick them up). ;)Awwww.... :heh:

[apr]

You're right about being able to marry at 16, but if you're a minor you need permission from the parent/guardian.Seems you're right. This website (http://tokyo.usembassy.gov/e/acs/tacs-7114a.html) states: "A person who is under 20 years of age cannot get married in Japan without a parent's approval."

I wonder if this means the author was unaware of the law, or if we're to interpret it as Ryuuji being unaware. Or me being an idiot.

[wistfulloner]

You're right about being able to marry at 16, but if you're a minor you need permission from the parent/guardian.

On to this episode, hmm...there are times during this series where it's good enough that I forget JC Staff is making it. Then there are times during Toradora! where it feels really average and/or really reminds me that JC Staff is the one making it.

The episode was interesting, but it had its problems. There were some parts in this episode that I thought were pretty good though.

Story-wise I always forget, but then when I see the animation it reminds me. :heh:

Anyway does anyone have a good explanation as to where Yasuko went? She seems to have just disappeared into thin air. It's pretty sweet she trusts Ryuji with the house like that, but that 's not the point. :heh:

[Vexx]

Best guess is Ryuuji isn't clear on the legal details ... we'll hope grandparents have mellowed and rethought what is more important to them.

Odd how they're adapting/handling Taiga's mom so far....

[Ryuou]

:heh: J.C.Staff is not some sort of giant monolith that somehow forces all of its shows down some sort of single creative pipeline called "suck". What they are is a relatively large production company that can coordinate multiple large-scale productions with a relatively reliable level of animation quality. Every show has different directors, writers, producers, and other key staff. If anything, I'd say they're a "workhorse" studio; their animation work is consistently decent, like a well-oiled machine. The actual quality of the *adaptation* depends on the directing and of the writing staff, and a lot of those people don't even work for J.C.Staff (or might even have been assigned by the producers without J.C.Staff's input). So... it's really not that simple. If a show's animation production values are good, then you should credit the animation director and the production studio. But if the story adaptation quality is good, then you should credit the director, planner, writers, and storyboard artists. If you want to predict whether a show will be good or bad, you have to look beyond just which studio is working on it and consider all the key players (producers, publishers, key staff, etc.)

It's like people like to have like the one face they can blame if they don't like something. With the Haruhi 2 stuff, at first it was Kyoto Animation and everyone was "grrrr Kyoto Animation", and then finally someone convinced them that it wasn't Kyoto Animation, it's Kadokawa, and so then everyone was "grrrr Kadokawa". Business politics aren't so clean-cut. There's not one single bad guy or one single person to whom all decisions must flow, really (even if there is on paper, it doesn't work that way in real life). It's a mess of contracts, and committees, and boardroom meetings, and stupid requirements imposed by people who don't know anything but somehow got into positions of power due to be related to the boss's cousin's friend. I suppose, at the end of the day, if you have to have a single person to blame, you could point to the director, but even then who knows what circumstances there were surrounding the production that were beyond his or her control. Life just isn't so simple.
Haha, must you make my simple gripe so complicated. JC Staff is the production studio in charge of making the anime so I will place my blame on them for my issues with their anime. They are an entity that's image will reflect their good and bad productions. The politics of it don’t matter. The entity is not void of blame. If it wants its image and consistency to improve, then maybe certain people should be replaced.

They are the production studio, they are responsible for who works on what, and are thus responsible for the quality of the product. And just like a certain level of quality can be expected from Kyoto Animation, there is a certain level of disaster that can be expected from JC Staff. They've built up their own reputation like KyoAni has. I usually don’t get too concerned over animation. It would be the writers and directors that I have problems with.

For the case you mentioned where directors and writers are put in charge from the people above (funders), and it ends up turning out bad. Well, that would just kind of suck. But if it’s not specified in the credits that that’s the case, and only names are there, then I’ll assume they work for JC Staff, or were hired for this job by them. If this were to happen on a consistent basis, then maybe they should make better decisions with who they deal with for an animation production.

I realize how crazy the industry can get at times, but that’s not a real excuse when quality anime is being produced elsewhere within the same industry. This isn’t to say that JC Staff doesn’t produce any quality anime; I’m just saying they produce a lot of bad. And then what really angers people, is their trouble with sequels.

So since it’s easier this way, I’ll just blame JC Staff and their reputation, instead of looking up each director and writer for each episode that I thought the quality dipped.

Edit: Onto Toradora! - My guess would be that Ryuji and Taiga aren't thinking about it or are just unaware of the law. There's the law that minors can't have sex but they do it anyway. Maybe a bad example, but the law doesn't always factor into one's thought process.

What I find a little odd is the focus on Ryuji turning 18. Unlike the States where you become an adult at 18 except for a few things, as far as I know turning 18 means nothing in Japan. Turning 20 is when you become an adult. I could understand the 18 bit as it correlates with him graduating High School, but that's not really factoring into his plan at all. This seems really odd to me. Maybe the author's had too much contact with the States, or maybe the rules got changed since I've been away. :eyebrow:

[relentlessflame]

They are the production studio, they are responsible for who works on what, and are thus responsible for the quality of the product. And just like a certain level of quality can be expected from Kyoto Animation, there is a certain level of disaster that can be expected from JC Staff. They've built up their own reputation like KyoAni has. I usually don’t get too concerned over animation. It would be the writers and directors that I have problems with.They're the animation production studio, but not always among the show's producers. And they're not always the one that do the series planning either -- for example, on a show like ZnT that they're often blamed for, Genco is specifically credited with production. How many other "bad sequels" have they done where, actually, they had nothing to do with the story? Has anyone checked? So, basically, that's why I'm saying it's not that simple. They get blamed even when they don't do the part of the job that people dislike, and hence I think their bad reputation is somewhat unjustified due to the oversimplification.

But if it’s not specified in the credits that that’s the case, and only names are there, then I’ll assume they work for JC Staff, or were hired for this job by them. If this were to happen on a consistent basis, then maybe they should make better decisions with who they deal with for an animation production.But the animation production company is not the top of the totem pole here. The production committee is. That's why they're the last name in the credits, because they're the ones ultimately funding the project and responsible for everything. Sometimes the animation production company is in the production committee, but sometimes they're just a contractor doing the job they're being paid to do. It's just convenient to blame them because they're the easiest name to remember.

Anyway... it's not that I'm really trying to single you out in particular, it's just that this argument comes up all the time, and it never really makes much sense when you dig deeper into the facts, that's all. Call it a pet peeve, I guess. :p

[Ryuou]

They're the animation production studio, but not always among the show's producers. And they're not always the one that do the series planning either -- for example, on a show like ZnT that they're often blamed for, Genco is specifically credited with production. So, basically, that's why I'm saying it's not that simple. They get blamed even when they don't do that part of the job.
I was going to bring up Genco as they do a lot of work with JC Staff. But since I don't know exactly how much the producing group has to do with the directing and writing (I separate production from directing and writing because I view it as more of the technical and business side of things. Incorrect?), I didn't know if I should blame them too. If you say they have a lot to do with it, then I'll drag them along as well from now on.

But the animation production company is not the top of the totem pole here. The production committee is. That's why they're the last name in the credits, because they're the ones ultimately funding the project and responsible for everything. Sometimes the animation production company is in the production committee, but sometimes they're just a contractor doing the job they're being paid to do. It's just convenient to blame them because they're the easiest name to remember.

Anyway... it's not that I'm really trying to single you out in particular, it's just that this argument comes up all the time, and it never really makes much sense when you dig deeper into the facts, that's all. Call it a pet peeve, I guess. :p
I know how the system works for the most part and in the cases were JC Staff is charged with solely animation and I still blame them, then I'll apologize to it in those cases. But these production committees come and go, and the only thing that remains fixed is JC Staff (and Genco). If there was a bad production infrequently here and there, then we could look outside of JC Staff for who to blame. But when we have consistent problems, then regardless of whether they are tasked with anything above animation, they can take blame for their poor business decisions. If all they care about is getting paid, then they shouldn't care about how the image of their studio is viewed. (Which may very well be the case.)

[rg4619]

I realize how crazy the industry can get at times, but that’s not a real excuse when quality anime is being produced elsewhere within the same industry. This isn’t to say that JC Staff doesn’t produce any quality anime; I’m just saying they produce a lot of bad.

I don't think their track record is any worse than other studios following a similar production model. When you get right down to it, J.C. Staff is primarily a more reputable, larger-scale version of a typical contract studio.

They invest little of their own money in a show, reap little of the profit (quite possibly none in the case of GENCO-produced shows like Toradora!, Zero no Tsukaima, and Nodame Cantabile), and are strongly bound to the whims of the contractors/financiers.

That's a sharp contrast from more creation/studio-oriented productions like those of BONES, Gainax, Gonzo, etc.

But when we have consistent problems, then regardless of whether they are tasked with anything above animation, they can take blame for their poor business decisions. If all they care about is getting paid, then they shouldn't care about how the image of their studio is viewed. (Which may very well be the case.)

It's the model they work under. One industry complaint is that with decreased profits, contractors are commissioning larger quantities of projects for less money and time. That has obvious effects on the quality of a product.

Now this isn't a good excuse, but the hit-or-miss track record (which characterizes the vast majority of these animation studios) shouldn't be unexpected.

[Janifuu]

Just because their engaged though doesn't necessarily mean they will immediately get married. If there really ARE laws in Japan stating anyone under 20 can't marry without parent permission, maybe their actual marriage plans were meant to happen later than sooner.

[relentlessflame]

Well, regarding the production topic, we could go on and on about it, and actually I should probably create a separate thread in General if I could just come up with the right way of phrasing it -- I'll think about it. In any event, apologies for the slight tangent (though not totally unrelated to the show), and back to the main topic at hand (though I expect the main topic will remain somewhat quiet until the subs are released).

[fish eric]

I was watching the bridge scene in HD on youtube and the snow effect is really cool. i think its the best animated snow I have seen. I also never realized just how compressed youtube audio was until I switched in the middle of the theme song over to HD.

[kk2extreme]

considering that ruuji's mom is 33, and ruuji is 17, this put his mom being a minor when she is having ruuji. About being underage parents in anime/manga, there are actually a few example, solid example like Cardcaptor, sakura's mother, i think in maria holic, kanako mention that her mom was underaged too when she is married.

[Man0warr]

The director/series comp for Zero no Tsukaima, Shana, ToraDora are all different, yeah ZnT 2 and 3 were bad, but that doesn't mean you can lump everything onto JC Staff.

The director for ToraDora! doesn't even work for JC Staff, he's a freelancer and the last thing he did w/ them was Honey and Clover 2

Series comp was done by the same lady that did Kodomo no Jikan/Vampire Knight (both shows are pretty well adapted from their source).

Light novels are not always easy to adapt and especially ones that rely on inner monologue as much as Toradora does - but I think they did a pretty good job with Toradora and Toaru Majutsu no Index this season, much better adaptions than ZnT and Shana atleast, but that falls squarely on the director and series composition not on JC Staff.

[Ryuou]

Well, regarding the production topic, we could go on and on about it, and actually I should probably create a separate thread in General if I could just come up with the right way of phrasing it -- I'll think about it. In any event, apologies for the slight tangent (though not totally unrelated to the show), and back to the main topic at hand (though I expect the main topic will remain somewhat quiet until the subs are released).
True and I'm sorry about my part in the tangent. I'll wait until you create something before I reply.

Edit: One last thing.
but I think they did a pretty good job with Toradora and Toaru Majutsu no Index this season, much better adaptions than ZnT and Shana atleast
I can agree with Toradora!. But really? Granted I don't know the source material for Toaru at all, it's got some real problems.

About being underage parents in anime/manga, there are actually a few example, solid example like Cardcaptor, sakura's mother, i think in maria holic, kanako mention that her mom was underaged too when she is married.There are also some extreme examples as well. I don't remember the name but there's one about an elementary school student mom. This kind of disturbs me.

For back on topic, what do you guys think about the issue of the age 18 that I brought up?

[Man0warr]

I can agree with Toradora!. But really? Granted I don't know the source material for Toaru at all, it's got some real problems.

It follows the novels pretty closely, too closely almost - which leads to alot of exposition, which is also kind of evident in the novels, there are alot of characters and organizations that pop up and get explained on the fly.

[VRMN]

Yeah, the issues with Index stem from the source material, honestly. The upcoming adaptation of the Toaru Kagaku no Railgun manga should be interesting, since that's really far better. (Doesn't hurt that Mikoto is a far, far better character than Index ever was, and that Touma is much better as a not preachy secondary character. ^^;; )

[CrowKenobi]

I was watching the bridge scene in HD on youtube and the snow effect is really cool. i think its the best animated snow I have seen. **cough**Kanon 2006**cough** ;) :heh:

:cool:

[wistfulloner]

Noticed something; Taiga in EP23 preview is wearing just her red school uniform when she got all angsty, but in EP24 in the same scene she is wearing her white coat.

And by the way, why all the hate (http://blog.seiha.org/2009/03/toradora-24-forget-this-noise/)? :(

[Vexx]

Noticed something; Taiga in EP23 preview is wearing just her red school uniform when she got all angsty, but in EP24 in the same scene she is wearing her white coat.

And by the way, why all the hate (http://blog.seiha.org/2009/03/toradora-24-forget-this-noise/)? :(

Basically, this is a sterling example of the "Its too tough to actually pay attention so I understand whats going on" coupled with "I get more hits by having a website that is one big troll".

I vaguely remember this guy from elsewhen and I'm rather sorry I gave the page a hit. I recommend not even visiting because you're just giving him ego points. I do see a few people not giving him a free pass on that nonsense (I love it when people are consistent with their forum handles) but you can also see far too many "please lead me by the nose its too hard" comments.

There is truth to the hyper-compression and lack of internal monolog making the points harder to connect.... but its a minor truth. If they think this is BAD plot flow, I can recommend some far far worse examples but he/they have no where to go because they're already cranked to "10".

[aroduc]

I love you too, Vexx. <3

[golthin]

Seems you're right. This website (http://tokyo.usembassy.gov/e/acs/tacs-7114a.html) states: "A person who is under 20 years of age cannot get married in Japan without a parent's approval."

I wonder if this means the author was unaware of the law, or if we're to interpret it as Ryuuji being unaware. Or me being an idiot.

"The male partner must be 18 years of age or older and the female partner must be 16 years of age or older."

You can't marry without your parents approval because you have to be 20 to create a family registry of your own. So when you marry you are included in one of your Family's registry, either the boy's or the girl's.
Unlike in the USA, only by registering you become legaly married and any ceremony has not legal concequences. So leaving someone at the altar is not big deal if you had already registered earlier.

[puppygod]

I don't quite get why there is the "To be Continued" in the end. Can anyone explain that?

I think there is no deeper meaning in that. Just that they skipped ED and had to somehow mark it's end of the episode already.

[ElementSun]

No youtube subs or anything yet?

T_T

[Vexx]

I love you too, Vexx. <3

<shrug> I agree with you on the issue of the hyper-compression and lack of internal monologue making it harder to connect the dots -- I simply felt the article was hyperbolic to the point of trolling. It leaves very little elbow room to crank up the anger for really bad pieces of work out there.

[Miles Teg]

For people who compare the event in volume 10 of the novel to this episode don't forget that JC Staff wasn't working with the novel this time but with info given by the author or her editor. What was removed/changed was perhaps exactly like that on the material they have received.

[arkxkra]

i bet Yasuko is damn sad and pain (same go for Ryuji also I think), hopefully will become good again.
The confess part was quite good, at the best moment the phone disturb, aiks.
Minori finally cry, but in front of Ami, I thought Ami cry also, but i guess she way too strong >.<". They really run away, what i mean was run away is not a good choice, but at least in the end, he go find his grandparents, and he present Taiga as his fiancee, that was a bit too impact for their grandparent (maybe?).

and what To be continue? looking forward to next episode.

[houkoholic]

I didn't mind they left out the kiss scene, while it was an "awwww" moment, it was actually kind of poorly done in the novel. Also without the internal monologue explaining Ryuji's sudden urge to want to kiss Taiga, adapting that scene is pretty difficult. Right now it actually flows quite naturally in the anime.

As for Ryuji/Taiga acting rash out of nowhere, again it felt pretty natural. Since the rashness of it comes across, and I think the point of it was preciously that the writers here wanted to point out the rashness/irrational decisions that Ryuji is making. While what they want to (run away and get married) is all romantic and all that, but it shouldn't be something entirely agreeable (heck even Minorin said she doesn't agree to them running away, even though she is supporting them). And we see in the preview that Ryuji returns to school (well we know they return to school in the novel), so there are hints that after some cooling off for Ryuji and Taiga, they come to realisation that what they decided on (running away) is actually not the right thing to do and they were acting out of their impulsive feelings for each other, so again this is not something I found to be a problem.

[Justin Kim]

**cough**Kanon 2006**cough** ;) :heh:

:cool:

Suprisingly enough, I still need to watch that anime by KyoAni :twitch:, considering I have been sitting here doing AP Calc II homework -_-, the speculations so far seem like an intriguing episode - I will look forward to this one, and the next one. But seriously Ryuuji needs to be a man, and I honestly do not Ryuuji to end up with the wrong girl.

[SakuraAyanami]

Noticed something; Taiga in EP23 preview is wearing just her red school uniform when she got all angsty, but in EP24 in the same scene she is wearing her white coat.

And by the way, why all the hate (http://blog.seiha.org/2009/03/toradora-24-forget-this-noise/)? :(

If you notice, he tends to tell crap about almost everything he talks about so you should just ignore him

[aohige]

I love you too, Vexx. <3

I dunno dude, just skimming through your website, you seem to hate everything anime. And yet you keep reviewing.
How can you deny what Vexx is saying? Looks to me like an attention wanter. :uhoh:


Anyways...
Minorin's "Giant Saraba" is a parody from Kakugo no Susume.
I didn't catch that one, I've never read Kakugo. :heh:

[nojay]

The snow effect is (obviously) computer-generated so it's easy (and cheap) to animate although it looks a little discordant when it is matted into digital cell-based animation. Anime studios today have a library of CG effects they can use -- fireworks, for example for the obligatory summer festival episode, steam for the obligatory onsen episode (which for some reason Toradora! seems to have missed out -- perhaps it was included in the light novel storyline?), sun lensflare for the obligatory beach episode etc.

It's kind of fun for a CG geek like myself to compare and contrast modern series with older anime which didn't have this kind of computer support during their production -- sun lensflares tended to be a camera pan over a static image, for example.

[Tri-ring]

It's kind of fun for a CG geek like myself to compare and contrast modern series with older anime which didn't have this kind of computer support during their production -- sun lensflares tended to be a camera pan over a static image, for example.

Although it was not computer generated, old school also compiled a library of stock effects(cell shots) for such occation so it really doesn't make much of a difference.:heh:

[Kinny Riddle]

Wow, that was epic, and that was only the penultimate episode!

Bombshell 1: Minorin putting her feelings about Ryuji out in the open. And she did that while running to boot, suits her style perfectly well.

Bombshell 2: Surely that paves the way for Ryuji x Taiga, and things will end happily ever after. Or that's what I thought until Taiga's mom and Ya-chan appear as hostile beings, leading to the unanticipated eloping of Ryuji and Taiga. Now where'd that come from? (Not that I'm complaining. )

Bombshell 3: Ryuji decides to skip confession altogether and jump straight to proposing to Taiga. WTFBBQ? o_O; (Again, I'm not dissing this in any way. )

I hear in the novel they even kissed at the bridge, they're probably gonna save that for the climax next episode. (Or maybe not? Who knows what other twist might happen?)

Ami forces Ryuji to make a cool confession that he likes Taiga, meaning she can now officially move on. She seems to take it perfectly well. Not so for Minorin, who's been holding back until Ryuji and Taiga are out of sight and earshot before breaking down. Poor girl. At least these two make a great yuri couple will become good friends from now on.

Ya-chan took Inko-chan and ran away herself before Ryuji could, though she did leave Ryuji with a refuge at his grandparents' place. I hope we see her again redeemed in some way next week, she's too likable to just run away just like that.

Hearing Ryuji's monologue near the end, it somehow seems Ryuji knew very well that eloping isn't the best solution, hence the cliffhanger.

[Yukinokesshou]

Ami forces Ryuji to make a cool confession that he likes Taiga, meaning she can now officially move on. She seems to take it perfectly well. Not so for Minorin, who's been holding back until Ryuji and Taiga are out of sight and earshot before breaking down. Poor girl. At least these two make a great yuri couple

Taiga thinks so too... "The shaking delicate heart of a Chihuahua -- if you're embarassed, I'll call Minorin for you. My, Valentine's Day came just in time" (Coalguys Sub: Ep 23, 14:56~15:09) :heh:

[Ryuou]

It follows the novels pretty closely, too closely almost - which leads to alot of exposition, which is also kind of evident in the novels, there are alot of characters and organizations that pop up and get explained on the fly.
Yeah, the issues with Index stem from the source material, honestly. The upcoming adaptation of the Toaru Kagaku no Railgun manga should be interesting, since that's really far better. (Doesn't hurt that Mikoto is a far, far better character than Index ever was, and that Touma is much better as a not preachy secondary character. ^^;; )
Thanks for letting me know. Now I will avoid picking up the novels.

Anyways...
Minorin's "Giant Saraba" is a parody from Kakugo no Susume.
I didn't catch that one, I've never read Kakugo. :heh:
I kind of liked that part. Kansetsu kisu.


"The male partner must be 18 years of age or older and the female partner must be 16 years of age or older."

You can't marry without your parents approval because you have to be 20 to create a family registry of your own. So when you marry you are included in one of your Family's registry, either the boy's or the girl's.
Unlike in the USA, only by registering you become legaly married and any ceremony has not legal concequences. So leaving someone at the altar is not big deal if you had already registered earlier.

But it the case where they enter into one of their family's registry, don't they still need permission? As far as I know they would.

[golthin]

Ami forces Ryuji to make a cool confession that he likes Taiga, meaning she can now officially move on. She seems to take it perfectly well. Not so for Minorin, who's been holding back until Ryuji and Taiga are out of sight and earshot before breaking down. Poor girl. At least these two make a great yuri couple will become good friends from now on.



I kind was sniffing when Minorin kissed the spot in her first where she touched Ryuji's lip. I was surprised when she broke down in front of Ami.

[Kinny Riddle]

What annoys me is the whole culture that seems to encourage this sort of speak-before-thinking attitude, and acts like because they have an opinion about something there must absolutely be a flaw in whatever they're criticizing simply because they don't like it. That's nonsense. No blogger or forum poster is going to convince me, just by the virtue of their having an opinion, that they know more about good writing than the actual people who wrote the show. I guess it's sort of the old "everyone's a critic" bit, except that it doesn't help when those people are also both arrogant and ignorant. In general, I would love to see less outrage and more reasoned analysis, but clearly this isn't the way to feed one's ego online. People just want to be told "you're right, that was so totally stupid and wrong, and it's the show's fault for being poor!" rather than "the show may be just fine; maybe you should watch it again to pick up on all the things you missed the first time and think about it". More often than not, the problem is the latter and not the former. Anyway, pipe dreams...

This paragraph deserves all the positive reps I can ever give you, for you have just described the phenomenon found in almost every other internet forum, whether the discussion is about anime, science fiction, drama, football, politics, schools, etc.

Sure, everyone's entitled to their opinion, but they're going to have to realize that every opinion, including my own, would be subject to scrutiny of anyone and everyone. The less "reasonable" you are, the more you're going to find yourself stuck in mud.

I kind was sniffing when Minorin kissed the spot in her first where she touched Ryuji's lip. I was surprised when she broke down in front of Ami.

Aye, that little bit was executed perfectly. Minorin's final indirect kiss to Ryuji, her way of saying goodbye to her hopes of ever being with Ryuji.

[fish eric]

**cough**Kanon 2006**cough** ;) :heh:

:cool:

i watched it in rather poor streaming quality so maybe thats why it didn't stand out.

[Ryuou]

There were some parts in this episode that I thought were pretty good though.
Since a couple people have also mentioned the Minori indirect kiss (kansetsu kisu) as being handled well, I guess I'll go ahead and finish this thought I posted after watching the episode. I may accidently leave out some. So here are the parts that I thought were handled nicely this episode.

- Minori's kansetsu kisu
- Ami's confirmation of Ryuji's feelings for Taiga
- When Taiga went to the cake store and ran into Ryuji (all except for Ryuji’s answer at the end, although it was fitting of his character)
- Minori's breakdown with Ami there

To a lesser extent
- Taiga and Ryuji's conversation on the bridge before the suicide bit came up
- Taiga and Ryuji on the train with their elopement rations
- Ryuji introducing himself and Taiga to his grandparents.

I think I got them all. Listing the problems isn't as fun so I don't think I’ll do it. I'll just note again though, on a whole I had some problems with this episode.

[othera]

eep, how long do the subs normally take? :/

[typhonsentra]

The earliest you should check is early evening tonight. It might not show up until tomorrow morning though.

[Vexx]

eep, how long do the subs normally take? :/

Also be aware it is college finals week for many colleges -- if any of the team has finals, one should hope they are giving priority to those. :)

[fish eric]

Ok according to Wikipedia. Japanese law states that If a man is over the age of 18 and a woman is over the age of 16 they can marry with one parents' signature.

so if he could have talked his mom into it it would have been okay. Ya-chan said before that she wanted them to marry so maybe he thought he can go tell his mom sorry and use the marriage as an ice breaker.

or maybe he was just gonna steal his mom's seal and use it to fill out the paperwork?

[Deathkillz]

So...back onto the episode itself...
Well I think we all pretty much saw the Taiga x Ryuuji pairing from god knows how long away but ultimately their choice of action proves to be utterly ridiculous (and reading through the whole tread, no, it has nothing to do with me not being able to connect the dots). I mean I don't really approve of this rebellious "running away from home with your lover" phase, which may very well be common in the real world, in general and this includes being in anime form. It isn't like they both had a good reason to run away (I might reconsider otherwise if child abuse was a problem) so what they did here falls into the "naive" category.

Not to mention the scene with Ryuuji laying it onto the mother that he cares about so much. I know that there comes a time where rage just takes over but really now...Ryuuji should have known better than anyone else how much those words must hurt his mother...each word was like a sharp blade stabbing her heart as he makes Yasuko feel a failure of a parent (even though she tries so hard). But while he may have a reason to rage back, since Yasuko suddenly started on him (if fact the whole scene just seemingly came out of nowhere for the sake of pushing the plot forward in a dramatic manner...I mean since when did Taiga have a mother :rolleyes:).

For Taiga though...sheesh I do wish they would make her reasons for raging like that a bit more clear since I find it hard to empathsise with her argument as she is coming across as being someone who is just sulking :rolleyes:

[leonard267]

I must ask:
What are the contents of Yasuko's letter to Ryuuji in this episode?
What were the reasons for both Taiga and Ryuuji to elope?

Toradora! never fails to take me by surprise sending blow after blow and making my nights sleepless. Eloping and being unreasonable towards Yasuko was rather unexpected. I have to read the subtitles to be sure whether it is too sudden or out of the blue.

In my opinion, this episode is so alike to a fairy tale, mainly because it is surreal and heart-warming (or heart-breaking) at the same time. I think I understand why some rated this episode as "painful". It is so good that it is actually painful.

At the same time, I am also full of disapproval though about eloping. If it were real, I do not think I would have stood by and done nothing, much less help them to elope.

[houkoholic]

So...back onto the episode itself...
Well I think we all pretty much saw the Taiga x Ryuuji pairing from god knows how long away but ultimately their choice of action proves to be utterly ridiculous (and reading through the whole tread, no, it has nothing to do with me not being able to connect the dots). I mean I don't really approve of this rebellious "running away from home with your lover" phase, which may very well be common in the real world, in general and this includes being in anime form. It isn't like they both had a good reason to run away (I might reconsider otherwise if child abuse was a problem) so what they did here falls into the "naive" category.

Which is the preciously the point. You are not suppose to approve of them running away and they are suppose to appear naive in their decision to do so. You seem to be mixing up two completely different parts of the plot and criticize them as one: 1) the plot point of the Ryuji X Taiga pairing - which for all intent and purpose is laid out extremely well for the entire series, and 2) their decision to run away from home, which is suppose to feel abrupt, naive and irrational. The characters *inside* the story don't approve point 2 (such as Minorin), so I can't see how Ryuji/Taiga being naive here can be counted as anything *but* intentional on the writers' part.

I mean since when did Taiga have a mother :rolleyes:.

We've knew that since two episodes ago when they specifically said Taiga was picked up by her mum after the accident at the mountain. The reason for the writing to keep it a secret was because it is another bombshell in Taiga's life - Taiga was faking her happiness with her mum so that Ryuji won't worry about her (refer back to two episodes ago when she come back and talked with Ryuji about how she was spending good times with her mum), but in reality her relationship with her mum was about as good as that with her dad.


For Taiga though...sheesh I do wish they would make her reasons for raging like that a bit more clear since I find it hard to empathsise with her argument as she is coming across as being someone who is just sulking :rolleyes:

Did you actually understood any of the dialogue she said about her family?
1) We already knew her dad is a bastard. The problem now is his business failed and he went bankrupt, so he ran.
2) Taiga's mum already re-married and is pregant with a child with her new husband. The only reason she took Taiga back was due to (1) when Taiga got into the accident and she's still legally Taiga's guardian.

I think that's plenty of clearly defined reasons to rage if that's how your parents treat you - as a burden that's tossed between the father and the mother.

[Janifuu]

I think I understand why some rated this episode as "painful". It is so good that it is actually painful.

I highly doubt that that would be the reason why the "usual" people gave the episode a 1 rating :heh: I do agree though~ this episode was so good, it hurt.

[frivolity]

I highly doubt that that would be the reason why the "usual" people gave the episode a 1 rating :heh: I do agree though~ this episode was so good, it hurt.

I ate an orange today,
But it was still sour, so I cried.
Because it's unlike me to leave any behind,
I ate it all.
I loved it; I felt like crying.
I loved it, I loved.

[physics223]

My close friend thought this was the most disappointing episode of Toradora. We were both expecting a lot, and Toradora has been quite consistent. Well, I trust her opinions, and I've been disappointed with Toradora the past week as well, so ...

There's always Spice and Wolf II coming this year. :D

[Toreno]

My close friend thought this was the most disappointing episode of Toradora. We were both expecting a lot, and Toradora has been quite consistent. Well, I trust her opinions, and I've been disappointed with Toradora the past week as well, so ...

There's always Spice and Wolf II coming this year. :D

If Spice and Wolf is so much better than Toradora why are you still here then? You already said that a hundred times... :D

[typhonsentra]

I highly doubt that that would be the reason why the "usual" people gave the episode a 1 rating :heh: I do agree though~ this episode was so good, it hurt.

It's funny the shippers might've taken it harder than the characters in the show. :heh:

Something that was interesting in how both girls (Ami and Minori) dealt with asking Takasu about how he felt about Taiga (I don't know if it's been mentioned yet) differently:

Minori stopped asking after a simple one syllable response to her question. He tried the same thing with Ami she kept pressing for him further.

[physics223]

If Spice and Wolf is so much better than Toradora why are you still here then? You already said that a hundred times... :D

Because I'm free to discuss the show, as you are.

Has anyone else found the recent episodes of Toradora to be quite disappointing as well? I do know it's not just me, since my friends have noticed the waning quality of the series near its ending. (She's Japanese, by the way, so she understands fully even without subtitles.)

[fish eric]

My close friend thought this was the most disappointing episode of Toradora. We were both expecting a lot, and Toradora has been quite consistent. Well, I trust her opinions, and I've been disappointed with Toradora the past week as well, so ...

There's always Spice and Wolf II coming this year. :D

What was disappointing in it? it finally tied up alot of loose ends between Ryuji and taiga, ami and minori. between ami and minori and between taiga and ami.

thats what I have been wanting for the last few episodes so I thought that was nice.

seems like lotsa peoples gots lotsa problems with this episode though


maybe im just easily amused.

[Janifuu]

Has anyone else found the recent episodes of Toradora to be quite disappointing as well? I do know it's not just me, since my friends have noticed the waning quality of the series near its ending. (She's Japanese, by the way, so she understands fully even without subtitles.)

In what way has the quality been waning? And in what way do you find it disappointing?

[typhonsentra]

I disagree pretty strongly with your judgment that the quality's dropped, but the direction and style of the series which originally attracted people to it has changed so drastically I can see why you'd dislike how it's wrapping up.

[Yukinokesshou]

We've knew that since two episodes ago when they specifically said Taiga was picked up by her mum after the accident at the mountain. The reason for the writing to keep it a secret was because it is another bombshell in Taiga's life - Taiga was faking her happiness with her mum so that Ryuji won't worry about her (refer back to two episodes ago when she come back and talked with Ryuji about how she was spending good times with her mum), but in reality her relationship with her mum was about as good as that with her dad.

Did you actually understood any of the dialogue she said about her family?
1) We already knew her dad is a bastard. The problem now is his business failed and he went bankrupt, so he ran.
2) Taiga's mum already re-married and is pregant with a child with her new husband. The only reason she took Taiga back was due to (1) when Taiga got into the accident and she's still legally Taiga's guardian.

(Note: The above wasn't directed at me. I'm just adding to the conversation.)

I really should wait for the subs to come out. I watched the raw and it did seem extremely illogical since I didn't catch that bit about Taiga's relationship with her mother. I'll put it down to my very limited understanding of spoken Japanese. (I rely on kanji and a rudimentary knowledge of grammar to guide me through written Japanese, hehe... you'd laugh at the way I read Japanese out loud, pronouncing half of the kanji in Chinese)

However, if Houkoholic is writing based on his/her knowledge of the book and not what transpired within episode 24, then I really hope episode 25 will explain everything.

Also be aware it is college finals week for many colleges -- if any of the team has finals, one should hope they are giving priority to those. :)

Whoa, in which country? That would make sense in Japan, but in countries with a September to June academic year?!? o_O
And yes, exams deserve priority... sacrificing your future for fansubs is a bit sad! :p

[SonOfHeaven]

I don't find the recent episodes disappointing at all. Everything I've seen made sense to me especially the way the characters been acting recently. Just by looking at all the subtle hints toradora been showing throughout the season. I'm very pleased with this show. Looking forward to the last episode. :)

[Keio]

Hi guys. Finally got around to create my own account here at Animesuki, though I've been lurking since last year. Anyway enough about me.

A few of my impressions based on the raws:
- Minori's admission that she likes Ryuuji while running through the hallways was fantastic
- IMO, even if Ryuuji's and Taiga's confession to each another got interrupted, the message was still conveyed.
- Ami giving Ryuuji that kick was her way of saying, "You're an idiot for letting things get this far when all the while this is what you wanted", "You were too dense for hints" and "I TOLD YOU SO" all rolled into one. And I think she got that message across well. :)

Will post a better one when I get to watch the subs.

[Yukinokesshou]

I don't find the recent episodes disappointing at all. Everything I've seen made sense to me especially the way the characters been acting recently. Just by looking at all the subtle hints toradora been showing throughout the season. I'm very pleased with this show. Looking forward to the last episode. :)

Seconded. Having watched all 24 episodes over the last week, the early episodes are still fresh in my mind and I didn't notice any drop in quality. If anything, Toradora has been getting more and more interesting.

[physics223]

My problem with episode 23 would most probably be addressed in the subs if they will come out later, but my friend's problem was that things simply felt too sudden for her. While the show allotted time for Taiga's realization it simply was too sudden, at least for her, for Ryuuji to feel the same way. I've to agree or disagree with her, but I trust her opinion, since we often agree on a lot of things.

As I've stated before I have found episode 23 to be disappointing because of Minori's hypocrisy, but I still do think the show is a good one. However, I'm no longer convinced it's the best of 2009. We shall soon see.

[TODAY-G]

After 23 I believe I meet the best high school love story ever!

When a child tries to grow up, he or she has grown up(> <)

[Kaisos Erranon]

As I've stated before I have found episode 23 to be disappointing because of Minori's hypocrisy, but I still do think the show is a good one. However, I'm no longer convinced it's the best of 2009. We shall soon see.

Christ man. 2009 isn't even over yet.

Wait until December to make judgments like that.

[physics223]

You do recognize that it was one of the few excellent anime during the first quarter of 2009, right?

[fish eric]

My problem with episode 23 would most probably be addressed in the subs if they will come out later, but my friend's problem was that things simply felt too sudden for her. While the show allotted time for Taiga's realization it simply was too sudden, at least for her, for Ryuuji to feel the same way. I've to agree or disagree with her, but I trust her opinion, since we often agree on a lot of things.

As I've stated before I have found episode 23 to be disappointing because of Minori's hypocrisy, but I still do think the show is a good one. However, I'm no longer convinced it's the best of 2009. We shall soon see.

I understand what you are saying, but

how can you think the show is no longer the best show of the year because one of the characters displayed some unsavory behavior. I said the same thing in the episode 23 thread (that minori was a hypocrite) but that is just her character. She said before "im selfish and im arrogant".

I thought one of the reasons everyone liked this show is because the characters were all flawed much like in the real world.

i guess it just looks to me when you say that because of Minori's hypocrisy this show is no longer the best of 2009 seems like you are displacing your anger at Minori's character's actions and blaming the show for not being good.

Are you saying the show is not good because Minori is a hypocrite?


P.S. Im not trying to start an argument with you. I just want to discuss :D

[physics223]

I understand what you are saying, but

how can you think the show is no longer the best show of the year because one of the characters displayed some unsavory behavior. I said the same thing in the episode 23 thread (that minori was a hypocrite) but that is just her character. She said before "im selfish and im arrogant".

I thought one of the reasons everyone liked this show is because the characters were all flawed much like in the real world.

i guess it just looks to me when you say that because of Minori's hypocrisy this show is no longer the best of 2009 seems like you are displacing your anger at Minori's character's actions and blaming the show for not being good.

Are you saying the show is not good because Minori is a hypocrite?


P.S. Im not trying to start an argument with you. I just want to discuss :D

No, I'm not saying the show is not good. I did note on that post that I still quite think the show is a good one. I'm not that uptight to think that an error like that would destroy my opinion of the show. However, it's not merely Minori's hypocrisy that made me think of the episode as disappointing: somehow, I really felt the drama was contrived, something I felt for the first time. It's something personal, however, and I doubt explaining further would help. I hope that suffices.

The episode merely awakened a realization that Toradora hasn't yet achieved that pedestal for it to be called among the best of 2009. There's still the rest of the year to decide. A few weeks ago, I thought of it as the absolute best of 2009. Somehow, it fell a few rungs with the past few weeks: it's currently still the best, at least for me, but there's a good probability of it being displaced by other anime series coming soon.

This may change soon. I must admit, I am quite fickle.

[Kaisos Erranon]

You do recognize that it was one of the few excellent anime during the first quarter of 2009, right?

Hey, Maria+Holic and Clannad AS have been good, and I need to catch up on Sorakake and Druaga, but I was enjoying them too.

Somehow, it fell a few rungs with the past few weeks: it's currently still the best, at least for me, but there's a good probability of it being displaced by other anime series coming soon.

Not much this year actually sounds decent, though this will probably change when the shows actually come out and I watch them, heh.

[TODAY-G]

I have to say it good because everything happens in the way you can see in the daily world. Somebody wins the love, somebody struggles for love and somebody waits for love. And Takasu even has to face the problem, a family misunderstanding that easily happens in his age of 17. This is not a story about comedy, it's only love.

[BetoJR]

Sorakake is fun, but I wouldn't quite put it up there as one of "the best" of the year...

[Kaisos Erranon]

Sorakake is fun, but I wouldn't quite put it up there as one of "the best" of the year...

No, but he said "excellent anime" not "best".

[fish eric]

No, I'm not saying the show is not good. I did note on that post that I still quite think the show is a good one. I'm not that uptight to think that an error like that would destroy my opinion of the show. However, it's not merely Minori's hypocrisy that made me think of the episode as disappointing: somehow, I really felt the drama was contrived, something I felt for the first time. It's something personal, however, and I doubt explaining further would help. I hope that suffices.

The episode merely awakened a realization that Toradora hasn't yet achieved that pedestal for it to be called among the best of 2009. There's still the rest of the year to decide. A few weeks ago, I thought of it as the absolute best of 2009. Somehow, it fell a few rungs with the past few weeks: it's currently still the best, at least for me, but there's a good probability of it being displaced by other anime series coming soon.

This may change soon. I must admit, I am quite fickle.


I guess I kinda understand what you are saying. The reason i asked you that question in the first place is because based on reading your Toradora blog and post it didn't seem like you would not like a show as much just because minori displayed a character flaw.

personally it has been one of my favorites this year.

When people are talking about the best show of the year it is assumed everyone know they mean so far.

since toradora premiered in 2008 if I was to hold an award ceremony would Toradora be nominated for best anime of 2008 or 2009?

[fish eric]

After 23 I believe I meet the best high school love story ever!

When a child tries to grow up, he or she has grown up(> <)


Today G - are you a native english speaker? if not what is your native language?

[Kaisos Erranon]

since toradora premiered in 2008 if I was to hold an award ceremony would Toradora be nominated for best anime of 2008 or 2009?

2009, normally.

[Vexx]

Whoa, in which country? That would make sense in Japan, but in countries with a September to June academic year?!? o_O
And yes, exams deserve priority... sacrificing your future for fansubs is a bit sad! :p
US colleges - many are on the "quarter system". I just finished my finals this week, next week is spring break and then the "spring quarter" starts. The year has 4 sessions called quarters.
Yes, its hard to get used to -- my first college experience way back when was on a semester system. It also makes it highly annoying if you try to transfer credits between a "quarter" college and a "semester" college.

[physics223]

I guess I kinda understand what you are saying. The reason i asked you that question in the first place is because based on reading your Toradora blog and post it didn't seem like you would not like a show as much just because minori displayed a character flaw.

personally it has been one of my favorites this year.

When people are talking about the best show of the year it is assumed everyone know they mean so far.

since toradora premiered in 2008 if I was to hold an award ceremony would Toradora be nominated for best anime of 2008 or 2009?

Believe me, if I didn't love Toradora, I wouldn't have written about it as consistently. I've done so for the past three months. I love the series. It's just that the love has weakened, but it never went away. :D

[TODAY-G]

Today G - are you a native english speaker? if not what is your native language?

Seems like my English is still MADAMADADANE(_ _)

I speak Chinese.

[fish eric]

Seems like my English is still MADAMADADANE(_ _)

I speak Chinese.

your english is really good. have you already watched the chinese subs for episode 24?

[TODAY-G]

your english is really good. have you already watched the chinese subs for episode 24?

Thanks^ ^

And yeah, of course. I thought I mistook 24 for 23...

[fish eric]

... if I didn't love Toradora, I wouldn't have written about it as consistently...

too bad not everyone feels this way.

why all the hate? (http://blog.seiha.org/2009/03/toradora-24-forget-this-noise/)

[Yukinokesshou]

too bad not everyone feels this way.

why all the hate? (http://blog.seiha.org/2009/03/toradora-24-forget-this-noise/)

Hasn't this webpage already been cited an infinite number of times in this thread? :heh: I'm sure the views of a single blogger and his followers do not represent those of the anime community at large. Just look at the poll results... Toradora lovers outnumber its detractors by far.

[typhonsentra]

He gets brought up because he's always the first one to make a blog post about the latest episode.

[fish eric]

I brought it up because I think its funny. Who would watch a show they hate so much?

That would be like looking in a mirror and poking yourself in the eye all day.

O_O <--poke stick---


its like physics223 said "... if I didn't love Toradora, I wouldn't have written about it..."

[TODAY-G]

... Toradora lovers outnumber its detractors by far.

I have to say I was attracted by Kugimiya at first, now I truely love these teens:D

[Kaisos Erranon]

I have to say I was attracted by Kugimiya at first, now I truely love these teens:D

Wait.

You started watching this show because of Kugimiya?

That's a first...

[physics223]

It's easy to hate on Toradora because it's popular. But it's popular for a reason, and it is due to the fact that it's good. From a personal standpoint, however, I simply thought that ep23 was weak because the drama felt forced for the first time, but I have no qualms to that extent as regards Toradora.

Maybe he simply wanted to finish it. I mean, he's gone that far, after all. It's somewhat like the point of no return for him.

[(o^^)-o*(x_x)*]

Wait.

You started watching this show because of Kugimiya?

That's a first...

Heh, yeah I thought this show was gonna be crap because of Kugimiya. Hated her roles in Shana and ZnT, and her voice in those shows made my ears bleed.

[Kaisos Erranon]

But it's popular for a reason

Just because a show is popular doesn't mean it's good. Just sayin'.

Heh, yeah I thought this show was gonna be crap because of Kugimiya. Hated her roles in Shana and ZnT, and her voice in those shows made my ears bleed.

After 11 and a half hours of marathoning Toradora with a friend, I can honestly say I never want to hear her talk again.

[fish eric]

I have to say I was attracted by Kugimiya at first, now I truely love these teens:D

who is Kugimiya?

[physics223]

Yeah. Code Geass R2 comes to mind. It was entertaining, it was pathos-invoking, but it wasn't good, at least IMO.

[Kijuto]

Really? I too just started watching this because of Kugimiya. I absolutely loved SnS and Zero no Tsukaima because of the role she usually plays and her voice. Odd huh? Turns out this show was great too, and I credit it to her.

[Kaisos Erranon]

Yeah. Code Geass R2 comes to mind. It was entertaining, it was pathos-invoking, but it wasn't good, at least IMO.

Yeah, though I liked Geass overall. If only because Lulu was such a great protagonist.

who is Kugimiya?

Taiga's voice actress, who has the most annoying voice in the world.

Really? I too just started watching this because of Kugimiya. I absolutely loved SnS and Zero no Tsukaima because of the role she usually plays and her voice. Odd huh? Turns out this show was great too, and I credit it to her.

Just wondering, are you a masochist? :heh:

[TODAY-G]

Wait.

You started watching this show because of Kugimiya?

That's a first...

Er...Even I know somebody may say that, I have to say so. Actually I like her voice and performance in Shana. I didnt watch ZnT since that is not my type. Well...

[fish eric]

who is Kugimiya?

nevermind i found her. i didn't know Taiga and Alphonse from FMA were the same voice actress.

shes is pretty cute too

http://www.animekon.com/uploads/2008/03/seiyuu-Aya-Hirano-01.jpg

[Raiga]

I dunno, I kinda like Kugimiya's voice too. In any case she's certainly a very talented seiyuu and her performance as Taiga is IMO excellent, as were all her other roles that I've seen her in (Shana [<3], Hayate, FMA).

[rg4619]

Kugimiya's tsundere performances are wonderful. She's only gotten better over time, and given the popularity, it's obviously a hit with most fans.

[TODAY-G]

...After 11 and a half hours of marathoning Toradora with a friend, I can honestly say I never want to hear her talk again.

You really suffered a lot...I can understand not everyone like her.

[physics223]

nevermind i found her. i didn't know Taiga and Alphonse from FMA were the same voice actress.

shes is pretty cute too

http://www.animekon.com/uploads/2008/03/seiyuu-Aya-Hirano-01.jpg

God, I hope you're kidding. That's Hirano Aya, and not Kugimiya Rie. Even the picture says so.

She did Haruhi from The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya. Kugimiya Rie is neither that cute nor that attractive (though some people may disagree ^^).

[TODAY-G]

nevermind i found her. i didn't know Taiga and Alphonse from FMA were the same voice actress.

shes is pretty cute too

http://www.animekon.com/uploads/2008/03/seiyuu-Aya-Hirano-01.jpg


Big mouth:DI prefer her voice more:heh:

But obviously I made a mistake since I never remember how she looks like...

[Yukinokesshou]

Taiga's voice actress, who has the most annoying voice in the world.

Just wondering, are you a masochist? :heh:

I don't really care for Kugimiya's voice, but I think it suits Taiga well.

The most annoying voice in Toradora has to be that of Kihara Maya... but I just looked up the seiyuu and it's Nonaka Ai who also happens to be Fuuko's voice in Clannad, so she must have intentionally assumed that annoying voice for Kihara.

[Edit] Kawashima Ami probably has the most normal-sounding voice of all the girls in Toradora.
[Edit 2] ... but only when she's being her real self.

[TODAY-G]

http://thenullset.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/rie.jpg

Here she is. To be honest I care her voice more than what she looks like.

Pic has been fixed.

[Yukinokesshou]

It says: 「该图片仅限百度用户交流使用」
This picture is restricted to communication between Baidu users.

[Vexx]

Taiga's voice actress, who has the most annoying voice in the world.

Obviously its a good thing there is diversity in taste so there are voice actresses who meet a variety of tastes. Yeah, I like Kugimiya's voice as well.... though I also like the VAs for Minorin and Ami.
Interestingly, I did not care for the anime version of Kugimiya's other characters (Louise, Shana) but it wasn't due to the voice work.

I tend to favor small high-pitched growly voices (Chiwa Saito- Hazuki/TMP, Becky/PPD) or deeper ones like Asakawa Yuu (Motoko/LH, Sasaki/AzuDa).

[Kaisos Erranon]

The most annoying voice in Toradora has to be that of Kihara Maya... but I just looked up the seiyuu and it's Nonaka Ai who also happens to be Fuuko's voice in Clannad, so she must have intentionally assumed that annoying voice for Kihara.


Conversely, I love Ai Nonaka's voice.

[Vexx]

Since many actresses can do more than one kind of voice and personality - points to Ai Nonaka for being versatile.

[Yukinokesshou]

Conversely, I love Ai Nonaka's voice.

That was my point: I certainly enjoyed Nonaka's voice acting as Fuuko in Clannad. I just didn't like the voice she put on for Kihara. Well, at least she's versatile!

Since many actresses can do more than one kind of voice and personality - points to Ai Nonaka for being versatile.

Oops, didn't read that before posting the above.

[typhonsentra]

God, I hope you're kidding. That's Hirano Aya, and not Kugimiya Rie. Even the picture says so.

She did Haruhi from The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya. Kugimiya Rie is neither that cute nor that attractive (though some people may disagree ^^).

I don't know if this sounds mean but... Aya is much younger than the girl in this picture.

I looked it up too, this is the first image that comes up on Google images when you type in Rie's name and I've seen her picture before, it's really her. I also happen to think she's a great voice actor, it isn't her fault the way ZnT turned out.

[Yukinokesshou]

I don't know if this sounds mean but... Aya is much younger than the girl in this picture.

I looked it up too, this is the first image that comes up on Google images when you type in Rie's name and I've seen her picture before, it's really her. I also happen to think she's a great voice actor, it isn't her fault the way ZnT turned out.

But if you click on the image and go the webpage, it states that the girl is Aya. Kugimiya is mentioned in the following sentence so Google turns up this picture when you search for Kugimiya.

And funny... I never knew word order mattered in Google; I thought it just searched keywords in no particular order. I kept entering "Kugimiya Rie" but that picture never turned up until I tried "Rie Kugimiya".

[Kaisos Erranon]

I don't know if this sounds mean but... Aya is much younger than the girl in this picture.

I looked it up too, this is the first image that comes up on Google images when you type in Rie's name and I've seen her picture before, it's really her. I also happen to think she's a great voice actor, it isn't her fault the way ZnT turned out.

What? No, that's Aya Hirano.

And I accept that Kugimiya has talent... I just can't stand her voice for long periods of time.

[fish eric]

But if you click on the image and go the webpage, it states that the girl is Aya. Kugimiya is mentioned in the following sentence so Google turns up this picture when you search for Kugimiya.

And funny... I never knew word order mattered in Google; I thought it just searched keywords in no particular order. I kept entering "Kugimiya Rie" but that picture never turned up until I tried "Rie Kugimiya".

yes, i just didn't go any further. when i looked her up on wikipedia it had no pic, this was the first GIS result so I had no reason to dig any deeper.

To be honest. I was much happier with the Aya pic(:naughty:) then the real Rie pic(:uhoh: )

[TODAY-G]

What? No, that's Aya Hirano.

And I accept that Kugimiya has talent... I just can't stand her voice for long periods of time.

And it all depends on how she will perform in the next one:DLike coming FMA.

I strongly suggest that she should try some new types of characters instead of tsundere.

[TODAY-G]

...To be honest. I was much happier with the Aya pic(:naughty:) then the real Rie pic(:uhoh: )

So when can we see Haruhi again? Anyway I have been waiting for long.

[Kaisos Erranon]

And it all depends on how she will perform in the next one:DLike coming FMA.

I strongly suggest that she should try some new types of characters instead of tsundere.

Al sounds nothing like her tsundere voice, so I'm not worried.

So when can we see Haruhi again? Anyway I have been waiting for long.

Try April 3rd. If there's anything new, it's coming out then.

Also don't double post.

[TODAY-G]

Sorry for that, roger. Kyoto just remakes the first season, hope the second one wouldn't be far away.

I still think better to say something about the topic here. And I suddenly realize Toradora has covered all 10 books in a series. That's why it pushed too fast some time. Like the conflict between the mom and the son. Even I know there should be the reason why Yasuko freaked out.

[typhonsentra]

Gah, I messed up. Just an idiot or secret racist!? :uhoh:

[panzerfan]

I think Taiga is one of the best Kugimiya Tsundere I've seen. I don't typically like Tsundere, but Taiga has the personality and the voice acting talent to really elevate the character above the rest.

The human drama involved in Toradora was interesting, although more conventional in theme. There have been really good moments in this show honestly, looking back at this point. Ryuuji's journey in life with I suppose Taiga (clearer than water by this point) is something that I wish can be expanded upon further than adolescence and going into their formulative years, but I don't think that will happen...

[Keio]

nevermind i found her. i didn't know Taiga and Alphonse from FMA were the same voice actress.

shes is pretty cute too

http://www.animekon.com/uploads/2008/03/seiyuu-Aya-Hirano-01.jpg
I think that's Hirano Aya.

http://thenullset.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/rie.jpg

^ is Kugimiya Rie. :)

EDIT: Plenty of people beat me to it.

[relentlessflame]

Ryuuji's journey in life with I suppose Taiga (clearer than water by this point) is something that I wish can be expanded upon further than adolescence and going into their formulative years, but I don't think that will happen...That's probably the case, but given the opening monologue in episode 1 and the closing scene of that prologue right before the title shot, I think we will at least get a momentary glimpse of that (even if it's just as the final credits roll). I said before that this show was obviously written by an author who was looking back on high school and remembering what it was like to be a teenager. It's no surprise that the show itself is setup as a retrospective as well. You could almost imagine that this whole anime is just Ryuuji and Taiga telling their kids (or at least, us) the story of how they met and fell in love.

If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times. If you haven't already done so, everyone should go back and watch the first two episodes of the show again, and do it before you watch the finale. It should help put the show into perspective.

[Yukinokesshou]

That's probably the case, but given the opening monologue in episode 1 and the closing scene of that prologue right before the title shot, I think we will at least get a momentary glimpse of that (even if it's just as the final credits roll). I said before that this show was obviously written by an author who was looking back on high school and remembering what it was like to be a teenager. It's no surprise that the show itself is setup as a retrospective as well. You could almost imagine that this whole anime is just Ryuuji and Taiga telling their kids (or at least, us) the story of how they met and fell in love.

If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times. If you haven't already done so, everyone should go back and watch the first two episodes of the show again, and do it before you watch the finale. It should help put the show into perspective.

I did that before you told me to. May I have a biscuit? :)

[TODAY-G]

I did that before you told me to. May I have a biscuit? :)

And I'll bring some tea so that we can enjoy;)

Anyway, I agree that is a good suggestion.

[fish eric]

That's probably the case, but given the opening monologue in episode 1 and the closing scene of that prologue right before the title shot, I think we will at least get a momentary glimpse of that (even if it's just as the final credits roll). I said before that this show was obviously written by an author who was looking back on high school and remembering what it was like to be a teenager. It's no surprise that the show itself is setup as a retrospective as well. You could almost imagine that this whole anime is just Ryuuji and Taiga telling their kids (or at least, us) the story of how they met and fell in love.

If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times. If you haven't already done so, everyone should go back and watch the first two episodes of the show again, and do it before you watch the finale. It should help put the show into perspective.



im planning on starting after episode 24 subs are out. i hope to finish right before the last episode airs.

[Raiga]

I've been rewatching the whole series gradually, over the past week and a half or so, and picking up on the surprising amount of stuff I missed the first time through... though I might go back to the first two eps again anyway.

[TODAY-G]

im planning on starting after episode 24 subs are out. i hope to finish right before the last episode airs.

Haven't you see Ep.24 yet? :confused:

[Kijuto]

I've only found one site with English subs as of yet, and they were nearly unreadable so I shall just wait for the Youtube subs tomorrow.

Edit: For posters curious about the subbing. Its readable, but generally is off by a lot and tends to make less sense..

http://animethunder.com/toradora-episode-24/

[typhonsentra]

Just curious, but where at?

Edit: I think I found it. "Takahashi-kun!" :heh:

[DragoonKain3]

Someone please tell me I'm not the only one confused by CGS's subs... :heh:

1) The reason why Minori gives up on Takasu is because she has chosen baseball/softball as her primary form of happiness? This is very vague and confusing with CGS subs, anyone can elaborate?

2) The person Ya-chan is angry at is Ryuuji right? Because he's the one who made the promise with her not to get part time job? CGS subs had the pronoun 'she' so it made it look like Yasuko is mad at Taiga lol.

3) There was a line where it said that the 'old geezer' ran away when he failed his classes. I'm hazarding a guess that they meant Taiga's dad, and that he ran away because his business failed, not his classes right?

4) I get the feeling that Taiga feels an outsider in her mom's home because her mom is pregnant with a child. Is this correct? Because the subs are everywhere in this subject lol.

5) After Ryuuji falls down the bridge, he was saying that in two months he would be 18. The subs say that its Yasuko who will run away, sleep, awake, and run again until they turn 18, but Yasuko running away makes no sense. I get the feeling though that Ryuuji is actually saying that for those two months, they'll run away from Yasuko and company (aka Yasuko-tachi) until the day he turns 18, when he can finally marry her. Is that correct?

6) Okay, before the 'break', the subs say Kitamura tells them to come to his house. But after the break, Yuusaku asks what his Ami doing at 'MY house' (aka. Yuusaku's house), which is to say is really confusing. Any help here? The subs say Kitamura was the one who invited them to his house, but the room obviously looks like Ami's. So I'm mighty confused, especially with Ami's comments of 'haha-ue' and 'obaasan-tachi'; who exactly was she referring to?

Because from my POV, it looks like Ami is staying over Kitamura's place too with all the confusion of the subs lol. I mean, it's Ryuuji who thanks Kitamura for all he's done, which implies that its his house. But then we see Kitamura leaving with ToraDora after, so its not his house after all? WTF! I need yur halp!

7) What did Kitamura gave them? Are those train tickets? Ami gave them keys to her villa, and Minori gave them money, but I can't make sense of what Kitamura has.

8) The subs say that the note Yasuko left for Yuusaku said she was staying over a relatives house. Is this accurate? Because the watch comes into play later with his grandparents, so I can't help but shake the feeling that Yasuko anticipated their elopement and gave left the watch so that Yuusaku has some proof to his grandparents.

9) "When I found out we were going to be a three member family, I was happy" WTF?! Taiga is pregnant?

10) Seems like two months has passed already, since Haruta has gotten chocolates. Correct?

God, never have I have been so confused by speedsubs before. T_T