Claymore Chapter 90

[MisterJB]

What...Claymore...ending:twitch:



I hope we get at least 4 more arcs out of yagi-sama. Also, post time skip, the chapters haven't been in arcs, and it has been mostly giving us information. Is this the new format, you think? Or are we going to start having arcs again, now that Clare is going solo again. The multi-part arc format is so much more memorable IMO. Not that I haven't enjoyed these chapters new chapters so far, but I think it is time for yagi to go back to the old way.

Couldn't these five or so chapters with Helen and Denve be called a arc? Personally, this arc was one of my favourite out of the whole History

[yezhanquan]

What...Claymore...ending:twitch:



Not a chance within these 2 years. I give it 5, and that's if I'm lucky.

[Claymorez]

Claymore manga will end when their profits dry :)

[yezhanquan]

Claymore manga will end when their profits dry :)

Er... You usually don't have much good to say, do you?

Claymore runs in Jump Square, a monthly magazine. And it doesn't shift many copies. I dare say that Shueisha is subsidizing the magazine to show that apart from SJ, they can get some quality manga on the record.

[MalakTawus]

Miria is the ghost's leader and she gave Cynthia the mission to stop Claire to do something ultra-dangerous so of course she can criticize Cynthia if she knows that she let Claire go to Riful because she was convinced with a simple talk.If Cynthia didn't want to stop Claire so much she should have told Miria in the first place(so maybe Miria would have gone with Claire herself) ,instead Cynthia ACCEPTED the mission.....so of course she can't let Claire go alone!!!
Now Cynthia not only she understand that they can't follow Claire,but she has a good reason to let her go,she couldn't let her go with a simple talk and this is the main point where we disagree.
And btw,the fact that they don't return home but wait for her is irrelevant,the only thing that matters is that they would let her go to Riful too easily.

The situation now is very different from the one i have described!!!Now Cynthia can let her go with a peace of mind.If she openly refused to let her go and Claire disable Yuma,Cynthia after securing Yuma has no choice to follow Claire since she already exposed herself and she can't deny her own word.
Now instead even if she is worried she seems to have accepted to let her go,basically this situation denied Cynthia the possibility to stop Claire giving her the perfect excuse to let her go BEFORE exposing herself.

[PureYoki]

Now Cynthia not only she understand that they can't follow Claire,but she has a good reason to let her go,she couldn't let her go with a simple talk and this is the main point where we disagree.

Cynthia understands they can't follow Clare? How so? Cynthia can still leave Yuma alone and follow Clare.

And why do you belittle a talk? What's wrong in talking someone into something by using sensible arguments?

The situation now is very different from the one i have described!!!Now Cynthia can let her go with a peace of mind.If she openly refused to let her go and Claire disable Yuma,Cynthia after securing Yuma has no choice to follow Claire since she already exposed herself and she can't deny her own word.

If Cynthia doesn't follow Clare now, it means she is ignoring Miria's orders which proves your argument is wrong that says Cynthia follows Clare at all costs.

Cynthia must leave Yuma and follow Clare, period. Of course unless you're totally wrong in your assumption that Cynthia must follow Clare no matter what.

[MalakTawus]

I never said Cynthia will follow Claire at all costs!( infact she probably won't follow her)I said she needs a very good reason to let her go alone,and a reason that BOTH her and Miria can accept.
You think that a simple (even with sensible arguments) would be enought,i think it wouldn't.
This is the core of our different opinions and we can't solve this,so i'll stay whith my opinion and you with your plot-device opinion.
I'm tired of this and to tell the truth it's not so vital to the narration.

About Teresa:chap.19 pag.18 Request to everyone that can read japanese:Can you read what Teresa tells exactly?(Please don't use manga-sketchbook translation,use the raw)

[PureYoki]

I never said Cynthia will follow Claire at all costs!( infact she probably won't follow her)I said she needs a very good reason to let her go alone,and a reason that BOTH her and Miria can accept.
You think that a simple (even with sensible arguments) would be enought,i think it wouldn't.
This is the core of our different opinions and we can't solve this,so i'll stay whith my opinion and you with your plot-device opinion.
I'm tired of this and to tell the truth it's not so vital to the narration.

Well, we can agree to disagree. :)

If Cynthia is so afraid of Miria that she desperately needs a damn good excuse (that she hopes Miria can accept) to let Clare go, I'll feel sorry for her. I expect more from her character, Yagi-sensei is not the type of author who creates most characters as dummies who can't think or act on their own and whose only purpose is to fill space.

[Tempest35]

Cynthia's afraid of what will happen as a result of Clare going off on her own - for this fact alone is why Miria told her to keep on Clare's heels. They've had seven years of getting to know Clare's stubborn streak of going off on her own and getting into trouble. Mostly likey, it was the other Ghosts who had to help bail Clare out of tough spots. With Clare's history, and the intel they recieved from Rubel about Raphaela who may be in Riful's clutches along with #6 Renee and the possibility of another Abyssal-level being awakening, of course Cynthia's going to freak that Clare's trying to go off on her own to follow Dauf - this has nothing to do with being afraid of Miria. Cynthia only used Miria's name to try and keep Clare from going off on her own - if Miria can't get Clare to do something, then it's nigh impossible.

It would take the likes of Irene and/or Teresa to get Clare to do something she doesn't want to do. :heh:

[PureYoki]

@ Tempest35:

Cynthia or even Miria doesn't have the power to stop Clare from doing something, Cynthia can be afraid all she wants, it doesn't change the fact that Clare will still go with or without her. If Cynthia (and/or Yuma) goes with Clare, things won't get any better, so there's no point in following Clare. If Cynthia follows Clare in fear of answering to Miria, she is pathetic. If Cynthia is not afraid of Miria, there is no problem in letting Clare go because she can neither stop nor help Clare and she and Yuma may end up dead against Riful.

It seems Cynthia will stay with Yuma and let Clare go, it shows us that Cynthia favours Yuma's well-being over Miria's strict orders. So there's no point in arguing that Cynthia would follow Clare even if there is a great chance that Yuma will die. There's also the fact that Yuma is a defensive type and can regenerate herself, Cynthia can still follow Clare if it has a very high precedence.

[PureYoki]

It would take the likes of Irene and/or Teresa to get Clare to do something she doesn't want to do. :heh:

No, even Teresa can't stop Clare from doing something. Do you remember how Clare stubbornly followed Teresa until Teresa gave up and took Clare with her? :heh:

[Gangsta Spanksta]

I know the situation is very different.My only point in this example was that if you hide from someone it doesn't mean that you are obviously weaker,there could be other reasons,and even if the situation is clearly different it's an example of someone hiding even if she was A LOT more powerful.....you can't deny this simple fact.

Actually, it makes sense that Clare hid from Dauff, because she suspected that her wind cutter might not be effective against him. Lets look at what is fact in the manga.

1) Clare has grown a lot in power; she tells Riful so during their reunion.
2) Clare non-yoki power attack is weaker than the quicksword she used on Dauff the first time.

Ch 78 pg 18 (One Manga):

Galatea: Warrior Number 47, huh. ... Can you still use that move from back then?
Clare: Of course. The power has dropped, but the precision has gone up from before.

So it makes sense that the non-yoki based Windcutter isn't effective on Dauff, if the Yoki based Quicksword had trouble hurting him before. However, if Clare starts using Yoki again, we will see how much stronger she has become.

[KingOfWorlds]

Looks like Clare is going to run into Renee...
As a result of going to see Rapheala....
In the next chapter or 2 Clare will finally find out Raki is traveling with Priscillia..
Or probably think of the possibility...
But Between all this that's going on I cant see where Raki fits into all this...

[PureYoki]

I know the situation is very different.My only point in this example was that if you hide from someone it doesn't mean that you are obviously weaker,there could be other reasons,and even if the situation is clearly different it's an example of someone hiding even if she was A LOT more powerful.....you can't deny this simple fact.

I think, in Clare's case, the reason was that she was reluctant to engage in a big fight, she knew what Dauf was capable of. She also had to release yoki to win and still there was a possibility that she or her comrades could get injured or die. She had every right to be nervous. :D

[Gangsta Spanksta]

About Cynthia, it is a set of priorities she follows.

1) Saving lives.
2) Miria Orders.

Cynthia will follow Clare intp any situation, and approve of it, if there is a life to be save or a person to be rescued. Cynthia is also loyal to Miria, but her own personal nature can conflict with Miria's orders, so she tries to stay as close as possible to the orders. So, if Clare says that she is going to save someone, them Cynthia says okay, but I'm coming too because Miria said to watch you. If Clare says stay here, Cynthia won't listen without cause because then she would be completely disobeying Miria's orders, so she would follow Clare anyway. The only way for Clare to get Cynthia to stay is to either not go, or give her cause, such as healing Yuma. Anyway, Cynthia will still approve that Clare goes if she has cause if it is to save someone.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

I think, in Clare's case, the reason was that she was reluctant to engage in a big fight, she knew what Dauf was capable of. She also had to release yoki to win and still there was a possibility that she or her comrades could get injured or die. She had every right to be nervous. :D

Clare real reason is that when she fight seriously, not even her friends are safe if they are too close. :D

[Tempest35]

@ Tempest35:

Cynthia or even Miria doesn't have the power to stop Clare from doing something, Cynthia can be afraid all she wants, it doesn't change the fact that Clare will still go with or without her. If Cynthia (and/or Yuma) goes with Clare, things won't get any better, so there's no point in following Clare. If Cynthia follows Clare in fear of answering to Miria, she is pathetic. If Cynthia is not afraid of Miria, there is no problem in letting Clare go because she can neither stop nor help Clare and she and Yuma may end up dead against Riful.

It seems Cynthia will stay with Yuma and let Clare go, it shows us that Cynthia favours Yuma's well-being over Miria's strict orders. So there's no point in arguing that Cynthia would follow Clare even if there is a great chance that Yuma will die. There's also the fact that Yuma is a defensive type and can regenerate herself, Cynthia can still follow Clare if it has a very high precedence.

You're taking what I said and saying something else - either that or I believe that you might have misread that particular panel. It was Yuma who made the big outburst about sticking together, not Cynthia. Cynthia has never made such a scene in the entire time we've seen of her. Yuma being upset about being seperated from Clare and disobeying Miria, however, is quite understandable from what we know of her.

Cynthia knows very well that Clare will do what she wants - everyone who knows Clare is aware of this fact. Like I mentioned, Clare going off this time isn't about who's afraid of who's orders. Cynthia wondered if Clare going to locate Riful was to save Renee, Clare said no, she just said that she had a feeling that she must meet this 'Raphaela'.

[Awakened]

PureYoki:
We won't agree on this, so lets just agree to disagree.

I just one to make one last point. You are assuming that staying alive is the most important thing to Cynthia and Uma. You conveniently ignore the fact that Miria sent them on a potential suicide mission, that they agreed too. Stay with Clare so that she would not be able to put herself in danger.

Them letting Clare go on her own for whatever reason, is the same as saying, you might die but we are OK with it because our lives wont be in danger.

You dismiss Uma own words, when she said she is willing to die for the ghost, no strings attached.
You forgot that Deneven chose to die to protect Helen when she could have played dead.
Helen purposely released her yoki because she refused to abandon Deneven even if it means death.
Cynthia bragged that Clare could never escape from her.
Irean giving Clare her only hand.
Jean giving up her life to save Clare.
Clare taking a hole in her stomach to save Raki.

After all this I don't see how you can argue that all Cynthia cares about is to stay alive. You arguing that her desire to protect Clare from danger means noting when her life is on the line. There is absolutely no evidence in the manga to support that. All indication points to Cynthia willing to risk her life to protect others.

Staying with Clare is the same as protecting Clare, because she would not be able to go to Riful. No one knows what will happen to Clare. To make things worst, Clare doesn't even have a good reason for going.

You ignoring the fact that the only reason Cynthia and Uma are with Clare is to stop her from doing anything dangerous. If there were not willing to put the lives on the line, why even follow Clare in the first place? They singed up to put there lives in Clare's hand, for better or for worst.

Even after all that, you are arguing that, at the first sign of danger Cythia and Uma will run and hide. They were never sent with Clare so that they can approve or disapprove of Clare's behavior. They were sent to stop Clare from doing anything dangerous.

Clare cutting Uma legs off puts Cynthia in a position when she has to chose between taking care of Uma or following Clare.

I'm not looking for a response, I already know we won't agree, just want to point this out.

[PureYoki]

We won't agree on this, so lets just agree to disagree.

Sure, everybody is entitled to their opinions. ;)

I just one to make one last point. You are assuming that staying alive is the most important thing to Cynthia and Uma. You conveniently ignore the fact that Miria sent them on a potential suicide mission, that they agreed too. Stay with Clare so that she would not be able to put herself in danger.

Them letting Clare go on her own for whatever reason, is the same as saying, you might die but we are OK with it because our lives wont be in danger.

You dismiss Uma own words, when she said she is willing to die for the ghost, no strings attached.

Not at all. Cynthia ignores Miria's orders to stay with Yuma who is a defensive type and can heal herself. It means Yuma's well-being has greater precedence than Miria's orders.

You forgot that Deneven chose to die to protect Helen when she could have played dead.
Helen purposely released her yoki because she refused to abandon Deneven even if it means death.

Helen and Deneve are friends, they die to protect each other. Why should Cynthia risk Yuma's life to talk to Rafaela? The context is entirely different.

Cynthia bragged that Clare could never escape from her.
Irean giving Clare her only hand.
Jean giving up her life to save Clare.
Clare taking a hole in her stomach to save Raki.

After all this I don't see how you can argue that all Cynthia cares about is to stay alive. You arguing that her desire to protect Clare from danger means noting when her life is on the line. There is absolutely no evidence in the manga to support that. All indication points to Cynthia willing to risk her life to protect others.

Is Cynthia willing to risk her life to talk to Rafaela? What about Yuma's? What if Clare has a better chance of sneaking in if she's by herself?

Staying with Clare is the same as protecting Clare, because she would not be able to go to Riful.

Why would Clare not be able to go to Riful? It seems she is a degenerate who can endanger her comrades' lives for no good reason, isn't she?

You ignoring the fact that the only reason Cynthia and Uma are with Clare is to stop her from doing anything dangerous. If there were not willing to put the lives on the line, why even follow Clare in the first place? They singed up to put there lives in Clare's hand, for better or for worst.

Cynthia stays with Yuma and lets Clare go. It proves your above argument wrong.

Even after all that, you are arguing that, at the first sign of danger Cythia and Uma will run and hide. They were never sent with Clare so that they can approve or disapprove of Clare's behavior. They were sent to stop Clare from doing anything dangerous.

I never said Cynthia and Yuma wouldn't help Clare for a good reason, if Clare asked for their help to rescue Renee, they would come without hesitation. And before criticizing my arguments, you must solve your own paradox:

You say Cynthia will follow Clare no matter what, their lives aren't important but we know that Cynthia stays with Yuma instead of going with Clare. Cynthia doesn't agree with you about the fact that their lives are unimportant.

Clare cutting Uma legs off puts Cynthia in a position when she has to chose between taking care of Uma or following Clare.

You say it's suicide mission. According to your logic, Cynthia should go with Clare and let Yuma heal herself. I sense a discrepancy here. ;)

[Cyclone]

Ok, Cyclone, if you have time, could you please look at chapter 19, page 18. What exactly does Teresa say?

Looking back at it, that whole section is rather poorly done.
I'm having a bit of trouble with this one though...

なんてのが通用するような連中でも。。。
those guys seem like they're up to nothing, but...
(more literally: pass as a lot that's doing whatever)

ないんだようなやはり。。。
but that doesn't seem the case of course.

[Cyclone]

Er... You usually don't have much good to say, do you?

Claymore runs in Jump Square, a monthly magazine. And it doesn't shift many copies. I dare say that Shueisha is subsidizing the magazine to show that apart from SJ, they can get some quality manga on the record.

There's really nothing stopping you guys from buying the manga too. Sure the shipping costs 5 times the magazine price, but that's still < $40 a month. That's not too bad...
I wish there was an official way to read the japanese chapter online on the day it came out...

[Claymorez]

Did anyone noticed the last page of chapter 89? where alicia and beth appear? the sword hilt ending tip is missing :o

[Vinak]

that is just a cleaning mistake. the picture was originally a two page spread

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c38/vinak/30-31-1.jpg

[Cyclone]

Since when has "go find that kid Raki", been orders for a suicide mission?

[Vinak]

since the moment Raki was introduced to the story

[PureYoki]

Looking back at it, that whole section is rather poorly done.
I'm having a bit of trouble with this one though...

なんてのが通用するような連中でも。。。
those guys seem like they're up to nothing, but...
(more literally: pass as a lot that's doing whatever)

ないんだようなやはり。。。
but that doesn't seem the case of course.

Thanks.

I have trouble understanding it but I think it says "those guys will pass by doing nothing... but it won't happen". Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems it's a vague statement, it doesn't explain whether Teresa's yoki suppression was useless or Teresa stopped suppression to fight them.

[Sleepy Speculator]

Pureyoki i don't wanna be an ass, but i think your'e being just a little bit facetious, and not giving due credence to others view/opinions etc. The constant deconstructing of the argument has become rather tiresome, 2-3 days max is the most for me...

Instead of re-hashing an argument, i'm gonna write what i hope to be a helpful perspective on Clare.

Clare had been heading into the western lands, to trace her own patrol route in search of Raki, but immediately ran into Rubul, whilst slaughtering an Ab with her companions (Cynthia is as bad as Clare when it's dangled in front of her, and Clare's almost as much a blood knight type as Ophelia). Being free from Miria's supervision and countless orders the first thing Clare and Cynthia did was run into battle against an Ab, not that Helen and Deneve are any better when they also got clear of Miria (though it does seem to be more Helen than Deneve, Offensive types lead the way i guess).

Rubul then drops the bombshell about Renee and Rapheala being with Riful. (say that 3 times fast). And Clare depite telling Yuma that she had no intention of going near Riful continues to close in presumably on Riful's location. (can someone please tell me if the raw of 82 actually says that Renee wakes up in the witch's maw). Because Clare going to Riful's last hideout, means she's already going somewhere she said she isn't going.

Okay they then encounter Duff who obviously has a huge yoki, (Clare's comment in the witch's maw 3 i think) which means a)proximity to Riful and b) it was no accident (despite what Cynthia said, notice she didn't say 'oh no' or 'how did he get there' etc. Duff is bloody obvious Renee spotted him from miles away)

End result Yuma is injured and Clare now has the opportunity to put her assassin style skills to work in stalking Duff back to the ruined witch's maw and infiltrating it to get at Renee and Rapheala. However Clare states to Yuma that this is not for the sake of Renee and she wouldn't go to rescue someone she doesn't know.

Well i guess Clare is lying to herself as this is exactly what she did when she went in to rescue Jean the first time around. Maybe Cynthia suspects this is what Clare is really like, after all Clare didn't abraid her over the status report thing after the fight with the Ab. Basically i'd guess that Clare and Cynthia were trying to figure each other out in that entire chapter, and both relatively know what the other is about. (Cynthia is a humanitarian type person who would eradicate yoma for free, just to make people safe, and Clare is revealed to be pretty much the same but with more emphasis on the eradicating part as to the safe part, it's like comparing an anti hero with a hero doing the same thing.)

Anyhow Clare now intends to leave Yuma and Cynthia behind to track Duff into Riful's hideout. She says it's about Rapheala, and we know she's met Raph before (twice if you think she's Teresa as well). But is also by precedent doing it to save Renee. That's two goals in one place, she'd be a fool to procastinate and leave them to die, given her personality. It's brought everything to a head, Renee is there because Clare spurned Riful, she saved one group of claymores from Riful's clutches with no hesitation, and the result of that encounter created the situation which now exists.

[PureYoki]

Pureyoki i don't wanna be an ass, but i think your'e being just a little bit facetious, and not giving due credence to others view/opinions etc. The constant deconstructing of the argument has become rather tiresome, 2-3 days max is the most for me...

Sorry, I meant no disrespect to anybody. (including Awakened and MalakTawus) You are right, I admit I sometimes cross the line.

I won't repeat my arguments, I'll just say Clare never endangers her comrades' lives for no good reason (IMO I want to talk to Rafaela is not a good reason), the plan that was attributed to her was full of plot-holes, not to mention it makes Clare look like a degenerate. I disagree with your points, that's all.

[Cyclone]

Thanks.

I have trouble understanding it but I think it says "those guys will pass by doing nothing... but it won't happen". Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems it's a vague statement, it doesn't explain whether Teresa's yoki suppression was useless or Teresa stopped suppression to fight them.

It says: pass AS (a group not doing anything) not pass BY.
i.e. just a random group of harmless Claymores just minding their own business doing whatever.
(..."but they're not - I knew it!")

The youki suppressing stuff is all on the previous page.
"If I supress my youki"
"to my limit, it doesn't look like they'll be convinced"

then she thinks the following which I'm having quite some trouble with:
なんとか見つからずに。。。
奴らをやりすごせれば。。。

let me get back to you on those ones. (something along the lines of: "if they can't find me... then if they overdo it..." but I'm not sure enough to be certain)

[Cyclone]

(can someone please tell me if the raw of 82 actually says that Renee wakes up in the witch's maw).

Page?
which part?

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Thanks.

I have trouble understanding it but I think it says "those guys will pass by doing nothing... but it won't happen". Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems it's a vague statement, it doesn't explain whether Teresa's yoki suppression was useless or Teresa stopped suppression to fight them.

Sounds to me like Teresa could've hidden her yoki from them and let them passby -- unknown variable Priscilla -- if she wanted to, but it won't happen, because that isn't her style.

[nakaru_mizuki]

Not at all. Cynthia ignores Miria's orders to stay with Yuma who is a defensive type and can heal herself. It means Yuma's well-being has greater precedence than Miria's orders.

I don't know what you're arguing about but...

Miria's orders for Cynthia and Yuma were to follow Claire and to stay in groups of two or more. The reason she makes them follow Claire is so that Claire doesn't get out of control. Re-read chapter 82 pg. 21-23.

and... Yuma is not a defensive type according to this new chapter.

[MalakTawus]

"but they are not - I knew it!"

this phrase thought by Teresa in pag.18 (above) means that she understand that she can't fool them .I said already,manga-sketchbook translation is wrong here,no doubt about it.

[Sleepy Speculator]

Cheers for answering Cyclone chapter 82 pg 1 side text, the FH translation says Witch's maw but i don't know squat about languages.

@nakaru mizuki

Erm i've never seen you here before so welcome, but Yuma is confirmed as a defensive warrior who already regenerated an arm she lost in Pieta. She's just not necessarily any good at it. Not to mention the fact that regenerating without yoki release is probably harder to do.

[Tempest35]

and... Yuma is not a defensive type according to this new chapter.

Yuma's a defensive type, she's just not good at self-regeneration. :heh:

[Gangsta Spanksta]

I think you are dead on Sleepy. I always enjoy you analysis. There is one thing I think you are wrong about though. Helen and Deneve. On first sight, it looks like Helen is the bigger trouble maker, but that is only because she is extroverted and Deneve is introverted and subtle. Helen has had to be the voice of reason for Deneve on a few occasion. From what I recall, without going to the specific pages.

1) Helen had to be the voice of Reason to stop a fight tha was brewing up between Deneve and Undine, when the two first met.
2) Deneve is the one who wants to fight the four armed awakened being that is about to kill Dietrich, but she wants Helen to be the one to take action, so she can look to be the responsible one. Helen being her best friend and understanding her completely, pretends she is not going to do it, making Deneve say, "I'm gonna get mad, Helen."
3) Helen wants to take a peek at Isley, because she is as curious as a cat. Deneve starts having thoughts of revenge and fighting Isley. At which point, Helen has to be the voice of reason again to Deneve, saying that she only wants to take a look and not fight the guy.

I think out of the troublesome three, Deneve is really the most troublesome of them all. Clare always has a good cause for her insanity. Deneve does on the spur things, and usually doesn't mean it as badly as it comes off. Deneve is the most willing to get close to that fine line of awakening, even just to test her limits, and she is willing to get into major fights at the wrong moment. It is pretty bad when Helen has to be the voice to your reason.

@Nakaru:

This chapter does not say that Yuma is not a defense type. She can be a defensive type that is not that good at regenerating herself. Deneve regeneration is a rare thing in deed. Not all defensive types are good at regenerating themselves. A major wound could take a long time to regenerate, weeks maybe months? I dunno.

[PureYoki]

I don't know what you're arguing about but...

Yes, you don't. :D

Miria's orders for Cynthia and Yuma were to follow Claire and to stay in groups of two or more. The reason she makes them follow Claire is so that Claire doesn't get out of control. Re-read chapter 82 pg. 21-23.

I know Miria's orders. We discuss how and when Miria's orders can be ignored. ;)

and... Yuma is not a defensive type according to this new chapter.

Yuma is a defensive type, she regenerated her left arm in Pieta.

[nakaru_mizuki]

Yes, you don't. :D



I know. That's why I said I didn't know in the first place? Ya don't have to repeat it to me like a parrot.

[Vinak]

heh, the way I interpreted Nakura's "I don't know what your arguing about" more as a..."you've dragged this on so long everybody has lost interest"

at least that is how i am feeling right about now.

[PureYoki]

I know. That's why I said I didn't know in the first place? Ya don't have to repeat it to me like a parrot.

It was a joke. ;)

[nakaru_mizuki]

@Nakaru:

This chapter does not say that Yuma is not a defense type. She can be a defensive type that is not that good at regenerating herself. Deneve regeneration is a rare thing in deed. Not all defensive types are good at regenerating themselves. A major wound could take a long time to regenerate, weeks maybe months? I dunno.



@nakaru mizuki

Erm i've never seen you here before so welcome, but Yuma is confirmed as a defensive warrior who already regenerated an arm she lost in Pieta. She's just not necessarily any good at it. Not to mention the fact that regenerating without yoki release is probably harder to do.


thanks for explaining.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

:p Actually, it gets a bit confusing when you have a lot of one line quotes answered by a lot of one line replies. It gets hard to remember what was before that, and maybe things are getting a bit circular too. PureYoki has brought up some good points. But I lost track of the conversation with all the quotes.

[PureYoki]

I guess I posted too much, I'll take a break for a while. (I won't have much free time next week.) Chapter 90 thread has passed Chapter 88 thread in post count in just five days, I think it's a good thing.

[Cyclone]

Cheers for answering Cyclone chapter 82 pg 1 side text, the FH translation says Witch's maw but i don't know squat about languages.

Nothing even remotely close.

The side says:
"The warrior captured by Riful, Renee regains conciousness. She doesn't know the tragedy that's about to begin."

The bottom says:
"Claymore - the latest, volume 14, on sale now"

No mention of Witch's maw anywhere.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

I guess I posted too much, I'll take a break for a while. (I won't have much free time next week.) Chapter 90 thread has passed Chapter 88 thread in post count in just five days, I think it's a good thing.

Well don't take a break unless you really need to. :) I just lost track in that one argument of what was going on. This chapter didn't quite have the type of action I was longing for, but it does give us much to speculate about.

Nothing even remotely close.

The side says:
"The warrior captured by Riful, Renee regains conciousness. She doesn't know the tragedy that's about to begin."

The bottom says:
"Claymore - the latest, volume 14, on sale now"

No mention of Witch's maw anywhere.

Didn't the Witch's maw get destroyed? Anyway, if Clare has to follow Dauf, then it is not at the witches maw.

[MonsieurRosseau]

I always thought "The Witch's Maw" was wherever Riful is, seeing as she is the "witch". That's not to be confused with silver-eyes witches, of course.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

I think the place was called that before Riful ever even moved in, but I have no proof my vision of it is the right one.

[MisterJB]

I think the place was called that before Riful ever even moved in, but I have no proof my vision of it is the right one.

I would say that the humans started noticing that everyone who went there dissapeared (eaten) so they started calling it the Witch's Maw

[chibamonster]

Witches maw, or the witches mouth meaning in the place of most danger (also connotes trap).

1. the mouth, throat, or gullet of an animal, esp. a carnivorous mammal.
2. the crop or craw of a fowl.
3. the stomach, esp. that of an animal.
4. a cavernous opening that resembles the open jaws of an animal: the gaping maw of hell.
5. the symbolic or theoretical center of a voracious hunger or appetite of any kind: the ravenous maw of Death.

Riful is the witch where Clare and Galatea are in her mouth. The following chapters Purgatory of the Deepest Depths fits in very well with Jean's situation and the dire torment facing all 3 of the claymores.

[iLney]

And that their fates depended on the witch's mood. :)

[Arkham]

Damn it!:frustrated:
I miss two days on the forum and i have 9 new pages to read :eyespin:

Well im done but I think im going blind :eek:

[Gangsta Spanksta]

The name could very well be because of the entrance that Clare took into Riful base. If the place was yoma infested before Riful came there or if it is because of Riful I don't know. But the it is sort of like entering a mouth and traveling down a throat if you go by that entrance. Then again, the Japanese like to use double meanings a lot of times.

[Cyclone]

Nah - I'm fairly sure (don't know why exactly though) the name is from being totally at the mercy of someone else. If the creature decides to bite down, there's really nothing you can do about it (i.e. you are the chew toy). I recall hearing such an expression in some langauge (forget which) about some large animal (again - forgot which). I'll try to remember. In any event, I'm fairly certain it's not a place name.

[hell88]

Alright looks like you guys need some help.

Maw - Means beak.

In this case think about maybe a raven or crow.

Witches maw, it probably means Riful's mouth when she feeds.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Chiba included beak in his array of definitions, but I already knew what a maw was, but to me entering the tunnel is like entering the witches maw, a long corridor that seems to be endless. Also, if the place was named so after Riful moved in, then those rods at the entrance would seem like teeth to the local folk. But it isn't unusual to give creepy ruins names, especially if nobody returns from those. Anyway, I took the definition of a carnivorous animals mouth when I got my first impression of the place.

[yezhanquan]

*raise hand* Why are we talking about an arc that is at least 1 year old?

[hell88]

I don't know why everyone is talking about the name, Yagi has made some pretty dark names for most of his arcs.

[MisterJB]

*raise hand* Why are we talking about an arc that is at least 1 year old?

Well, if we discussTeresa in the QA thread , I guess we can still talk about the Witch's Maw.

But of course, creating a thread specially for that is untinkhable. I mean what Teresa ever did for Claymore? Nothing,. a Raki thread, now that's great...

[yezhanquan]

The dame set the tone for the series, I think. But, as I would say, there are people who are assembling the puzzle (She has some pieces, but didn't bother to put together the picture). For now, they are not sharing the pieces they have, which means their pictures are vastly distorted now.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

We are talking about the Witch's Maw, because Clare is heading to Riful's base. I said that I think that the Witch's maw got destroyed, and that Riful has a new base, but who knows? Anyway, if it was the old base, then Clare wouldn't need to follow Duaph unless there is another entrance into the place.

[yezhanquan]

That cave still standing after 7 years? If that little log cabin where Raki and Priscilla stayed in was still around now, I'll believe it.

In fact, if there is a scene where Diet. bends down to look at a fallen statue of the goddesses, it will probably say something.

[MisterJB]

The dame set the tone for the series

I was being ironic...

[hell88]

The Witches Maw is not the name of where Riful was, it is just the name of that arc.

[MonsieurRosseau]

I recall hearing such an expression in some langauge (forget which) about some large animal (again - forgot which).

Belly of the beast? Lion's gullet? Ah well...


Teresa was definitely at least as important as Raki.

[Arkham]

I believe that Rifuls original base was destroyed by Riful when she transformed in to her awakened form to save Duff

[Gangsta Spanksta]

:D Aw come on, there is absolutely no proof that it wasn't the name of the place too. Spooky places, especially dangerous ones, get spooky names. The Witch's maw is perfect for a name of a place.

[MisterJB]

:D Aw come on, there is absolutely no proof that it wasn't the name of the place too. Spooky places, especially dangerous ones, get spooky names. The Witch's maw is perfect for a name of a place.

But then, why did the villagers said:

"You can't be thinking of going into the mountains?!"

Instead of:

"You can't be thinking of going into the Witch's Maw?!"

[Arkham]

Clair called it "Mount Zakol"

[Tale]

If Dietrich is the little girl from the Teresa and Clare statue there is so much room for character development that I would be very impressed if Yagi uses it.
The girl to whom Clare asked about Raki? You mean character development more than just foreshadowing?

[Tale]

It says: pass AS (a group not doing anything) not pass BY.
i.e. just a random group of harmless Claymores just minding their own business doing whatever.
(..."but they're not - I knew it!")
I couldn't remember the scene but, my memory was refreshed by the extracts...I guess it's the scene where Teresa is wondering if she should face the assassination team or not.

なんてのが通用するような連中でも...ないんだろうなやはり...

To their kind, this (hiding)...won't work, it seems, of course...

OR

They are not kind to whom this will work...it seems, of course...

You know, Teressa knows they are single digit numbers...so, she must know what they are up to...[/quote]


then she thinks the following which I'm having quite some trouble with:
なんとか見つからずに。。。
奴らをやりすごせれば。。。

let me get back to you on those ones. (something along the lines of: "if they can't find me... then if they overdo it..." but I'm not sure enough to be certain)
なんとか見つからずに
Without being found...

やつらをやり過ごせれば
If I can let them go past...

In English, the word order should be "If I can let them go past without being found,".

When sentences are divided into groups of a few words, the difference in the word order between these two languages become troublesome. Anybody who translate one to another should be good at both languages...

[Tale]

I believe that Rifuls original base was destroyed by Riful when she transformed in to her awakened form to save Duff
My memory tells me the same thing. ;)

[azurie]

My memory tells me the same thing. ;)

my eyeballs told me the same thing as well as my construction crew who had to clean up the mess geesh that was a long month for us ;P

[Gangsta Spanksta]

But then, why did the villagers said:

"You can't be thinking of going into the mountains?!"

Instead of:

"You can't be thinking of going into the Witch's Maw?!"

Ya know that's a meaningless question. They could've of said:

"You can't be thinking of going up there?!" and it would have still been okay. There is no universal law, that supersedes freewill, the randomness of responses, that makes a person explicitly mention the nickname of a location. I'm not saying the place is named the Witches Maw, but that it could be, and it would still make sense, and there hasn't been anything to disprove that. It is up to the imagination of the reader, unless the author decides otherwise.

[chibamonster]

For AB's having such human personalities at the surface they really do not seem to take advantage of being the monsters that they are. Sure Isley lived in nice houses and liked to ride horses instead of walking (irony anyone?) but really they seem to have no use for human shelter or novelties. Even Teresa couldn't sleep on a comfortable bed. It made her too uneasy. Agatha tried to pick up on Cid and got shot down. It is tough being an AB!

With the power of an AB you could do some pretty awesome things. You could make the coolest tree house ever. They could even get humans behind them to help mess with the organization as they know they were once warriors and know all kind of secrets. But so little of their humanity remains that they barely have any ambition. Riful and Isley seem to be the exception as they are serious players who lead and inspire others but Isley stopped his quest and Riful has no info on the current situation.

As I state often, relationships are the core of Claymore. I wonder what Duff would do if Riful died or what Riful would do if Duff died. Isley died wishing he had more time to be with Priscilla and Raki, not that he had taken over the rest of the island. Teresa resisted her executioners because she wanted to take care of Clare not because she had a reason of her own to live. Irene released her youki because of a memory of Teresa long since dead which resulted in Raph finding her.

Relationships are the real plot of Claymore and those relationships have to be strained. There are always tests for the characters which force them to make choices. Often it happens more than once, like Clarice and Miata or Clare and Teresa. I am really curious to see what happens when Alicia and Beth are strained. I do not think they are really robots like the organization hopes. I am very curious what will happen to Raki and Priscilla's relationship when they are put in trouble. The thing I love about relationships in Claymore is that there are consequences even if the characters do the right thing.

@Gangsta: So the place the ghosts lived in the north during the 7 year time skip was the northern land Joined By Souls, Clare fought Ophelia in the forest of Endless Gravestones and Isley fought Luciella at the south land of Cognates of Paradise? It is just the name of the arc, and if you look at the pattern of the arc names they describe the contents of their arc. The Witch's Maw describes the situation Clare, Galatea and Jean find themselves in stuck at the mercy of Riful. Just like marked for death describes the contents later half of Teresa's story or Fit For Battle describes Irene's return.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Chiba: Do you really want me to dignify that with a response? I mean, I know you are smarter than that to know that there is a distinct difference there. And you are assuming that the witches maw is in reference to Riful instead of the corridor that is like a witches maw with Dauph's rods at the entrance where the battle is going on. Are you saying that a writer could not write about Clare entering the Witch's maw, using it as a metaphor for the entrance, describing Dauph's rods as the teeth, and the long, dark, endless passageway as the throat? Are you saying that "The Witch's Maw" does not make a good name for a spooky place like that? And then there is the fact that writers often like a chapter title to have a double meaning to it, where it could refer both to Riful and the setting. Honestly, if you can't see it, it would show a lack of creativity, I think. But then I think you are smart enough that you can.

[chibamonster]

Well, seeing as the mountain is called Mt. Zakol I don't know who would be calling it the witches maw. Yes the scenery matches the situation, just like Irene's isolated house matches someone who is no longer fit for battle. Duff collapses the entrance in chapter 4, and really the entrance itself was not the most dangerous part; the most dangerous part and the FOCUS of this arc is Riful who plays a game with them where they are in, The Witch's Maw. The witch absolutely is refering to Riful. Or do you think the title The Deceptive Enchantress in Claymore 70 was not referring Riful? Witch or enchantress, sounds like a theme to me :D.

[Tale]

As I state often, relationships are the core of Claymore. I wonder what Duff would do if Riful died or what Riful would do if Duff died. Isley died wishing he had more time to be with Priscilla and Raki, not that he had taken over the rest of the island. Teresa resisted her executioners because she wanted to take care of Clare not because she had a reason of her own to live. Irene released her youki because of a memory of Teresa long since dead which resulted in Raph finding her.
That sounds like core argument. It's nice touch when Yagi makes long-forgotten human side emerges from their monstrous side in the case of Ophelia and Isley. I wish he had put more effort to the character development of Isley, though.


Relationships are the real plot of Claymore and those relationships have to be strained.
I couldn't agree more with you about that. Probably, this is one of the reasons why the series still manages to hold its strength. I'm curios to how the relation ship among Priscilla, Raki and Clare ends up since this is one of the most important relationships for this entire work.

@Gangsta Spanksta
I envy your imagination but I sometimes wonder if we are talking of the same work... :D

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Well, seeing as the mountain is called Mt. Zakol I don't know who would be calling it the witches maw. Yes the scenery matches the situation, just like Irene's isolated house matches someone who is no longer fit for battle. Duff collapses the entrance in chapter 4, and really the entrance itself was not the most dangerous part; the most dangerous part and the FOCUS of this arc is Riful who plays a game with them where they are in, The Witch's Maw. The witch absolutely is refering to Riful. Or do you think the title The Deceptive Enchantress in Claymore 70 was not referring Riful? Witch or enchantress, sounds like a theme to me :D.

The ruins are called Mt. Zakol, or is it the mountain that those ruins sit upon? Honestly, what is it with the heavy load of sarcasm just because someone has a different perspective that can't be invalidated? I mean, I think that you are smart and creative, and I don't talk down to you with sarcastic comparisons that obviously don't even fit. Duff collapsing the entrance could be the metaphoric closing of the maw. Remeber this little bit you posted earlier from dictionary.com?

4. a cavernous opening that resembles the open jaws of an animal: the gaping maw of hell.

Isn't that to describe just such an opening? This one even has teeth at the entrance thanks to dauff. Irene cabin matching the title fit for battle just doesn't work. I have given an idea where the title fits, and you are giving me examples where the comparison just doesn't work, trying to use that to shoot down the idea. But instead of shooting down the idea, it is making you look less creative than you are, and I say that with a lot of respect. But honestly, how am I suppose to respond to something so obviously transparent. I mean, if someone you know who is intelligent posts a sarcastic reply that makes them seem like they don't grasp such literary concepts like metaphors and double meanings, that make them seem a little less creative than you think they are while they are talking down to you, what are you suppose to think?

Edit:

There is a lot of double meaning in that title:

Like previously stated Maw also means Trap. So the title means Witches Trap, while at the same time meaning Witches Carnivorous Mouth. Many Authors like Double meanings in titles. Yes, Riful is the Witch, but the title also describes where the scene takes place. Notice that the battle never really leaves the area of the opening that is the Maw? Authors like to use as many meanings to titles as possible. I know, I am a bit of an armature but I do it as well. And what better way to start the chapter than by saying that Clare walked into the Witch Maw, which again has a double meaning to it, it being a carnivorous looking opening and a trap setup by Riful. Honestly, one solution only isn't usually right in these kind of things.

[Tale]

PS After my memory being refreshed, I guess I was wrong with the interpretation of the yoki suppression. Teresa and Irene were also capable of suppressing yoki. So, it's not special trick for the ghosts and probably one of more common techniques for claymores of higher-levels. None of those is core argument, though.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

PS After my memory being refreshed, I guess I was wrong with the interpretation of the yoki suppression. Teresa and Irene were also capable of suppressing yoki. So, it's not special trick for the ghosts and probably one of more common techniques for claymores of higher-levels. None of those is core argument, though.

Yeah, but it is still detectable. In fact, I think they say when talking about Rafaela that she has been suppressing her yoki for so long that it has become undetectable. So yoki suppression is something all Claymores can do, but you have to suppress it for years to be undetectable.

[chibamonster]

@Gangsta: I do not know what your point is as you are not even trying to prove anything. The most ambitious thrust of your argument is that the witch's maw could possibly maybe refer to a passage way in an arc that Clare enters the first page of Witch's Maw 3, is destroyed 10 pages into Witches Maw 4, doesn't hurt anyone.

What do you want us to say? If you are just saying, "wouldn't that be a good name for a creepy place" then fine it would be. But obviously we are struggling to make the leap to, "x means y" on this theory. You base your arguments off of the fact that there is no evidence to the contrary so your creativity can run wild, shoot down when people give really good analysis of themes, japanese language and patterns, and then tell us we are not creative or scientific as we look for support from the manga. What response are you hoping for from the forum after you present this theory?

[Aimless]

Yeah, but it is still detectable. In fact, I think they say when talking about Rafaela that she has been suppressing her yoki for so long that it has become undetectable. So yoki suppression is something all Claymores can do, but you have to suppress it for years to be undetectable.

What hasn't yet been revealed though, is whether suppressing it to the point that it's undetectable is a skill learned only after years of suppression, or if it just takes years to suppress it to that level each time. Deneve's comments about blowing her cover in chapter 87 may indicate the latter, but I don't see anything solid suggesting that that's the way it is.

Ie., the question here is that, now that the ghosts have learned to completely suppress their yoki, if they do wind up forced to use it and blowing their cover (as seems almost certain in the near future), how long will it take them to resuppress? Years, again? It's certainly not instant, or Deneve wouldn't have said what she said.

[Throne Invader]

Yoki suppression can also be a special skill just like Priscilla's. She's probably like the third youngest claymore known.

[Aimless]

Priscilla's lack of youki was explained in exactly the same manner as Raphaela's - she fought without ever releasing her youki. No skill involved, unless it's the same skill that everyone who manages to completely suppress their youki gains.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

@Gangsta: I do not know what your point is as you are not even trying to prove anything. The most ambitious thrust of your argument is that the witch's maw could possibly maybe refer to a passage way in an arc that Clare enters the first page of Witch's Maw 3, is destroyed 10 pages into Witches Maw 4, doesn't hurt anyone.

What do you want us to say? If you are just saying, "wouldn't that be a good name for a creepy place" then fine it would be. But obviously we are struggling to make the leap to, "x means y" on this theory. You base your arguments off of the fact that there is no evidence to the contrary so your creativity can run wild, shoot down when people give really good analysis of themes, japanese language and patterns, and then tell us we are not creative or scientific as we look for support from the manga. What response are you hoping for from the forum after you present this theory?

Quiet on the contrary, I have not shot down anyone really good analysis of themes, japanese langauge patterns, nor have I told people that they are not creative. I was merely pointing out that you were trolling, with your sarcastic post that used comparisons that didn't fit the same pattern, as you talked down down to me. I was pointing out that it was trolling, based on the fact that you are intelligent and I think you are creative, and that if your comments were to be taken seriously it would make you seem less intelligent and not so creative. It seems to be a theme of yours, where you totally pretend to miss the obvious point that someone of your intelligence shouldn't, or you turn things around that I have said, ignoring the original intent and meaning behind them. I respect your intelligence, and while you may or may not like me, I would appreciate it if you would respect mines.

As for respecting everyone elses opinions:

I'm not saying the place is named the Witches Maw, but that it could be, and it would still make sense, and there hasn't been anything to disprove that.

I am the one being open minded here, and I am not the one trying to shoot down other peoples opinions. I was just giving my opinion that I think the place is called the Witches maw. I said it was really up to the imagination of the reader -- that there is no way to prove or disprove it. This is not about proving any theory, and you trying to say that I need supporting evidence for a personal viewpoint that makes sense is just ludicrous. You yourself provided a definition of the Witch's Maw that describes the scene that the arc takes place in. In story telling, somethings are up to the readers imagination. There is a great likelyhood that the intended meaning of the title was a double meaning describing both where the scene takes place, and that it was Riful's trap. There is also a likelyhood that I am wrong, as there is a likelyhood that you are wrong about the meaning of the title. My support about metaphors and visualization of the base, is no less supported than what you gave for your opinion. Just because you disagree with me, or perhaps don't like me, is no excuse to troll. And my things are not just based on that there are no evidence to the contrary; that is just another thing you do: ignore any support I build and make such false statement. I have already explained why it could be a possibility. Me trying to answer that would just lead to circular arguments.

[Tale]

Yeah, but it is still detectable. In fact, I think they say when talking about Rafaela that she has been suppressing her yoki for so long that it has become undetectable. So yoki suppression is something all Claymores can do, but you have to suppress it for years to be undetectable.
I guess you mean this passage from Rafaela.

長い間妖気を完全に消していたから見つけることができなかったが、高速剣を使ったのは失敗だったな・・・お かげで今は普通の戦士のように妖気が外に漏れ出ている。　

My not-so-good translation:I wasn't able to find you since you had completely erased your yoki for a long time but it was a blunder for you to use your Quick Sword technique...thanks to it, your yoki is leaking like a normal warrior.

Yes, yoki sounds more like youki but yoki seems to be near official.

I'd like to think that Irene knew the risk from the beginning but that, admiring Teressa and Clare's passionate way of living, she placed it over her usual cool judgment and her hermitage, in other words, the life of just escaping form the org.

What hasn't yet been revealed though, is whether suppressing it to the point that it's undetectable is a skill learned only after years of suppression, or if it just takes years to suppress it to that level each time. Deneve's comments about blowing her cover in chapter 87 may indicate the latter, but I don't see anything solid suggesting that that's the way it is.
Exactly my thought. Deneve's comments came to my mind, too/ However, they are mere speculations which lead nowhere...at least based on the information currently given.

I have already explained why it could be a possibility. Me trying to answer that would just lead to circular arguments.
If you think they are speculations/possibilities, then, I have nothing against them. ;)

[chibamonster]

@Gangsta: So as I understand it you want some form of validation by opened minded forum users saying "yes that tunnel could, because there is absolutely no evidence that meets your criteria supporting or refuting it, be called the Witch's Maw." Is that right?

@Tale and Aimless: While Claymores can definitely suppress their youki at any given point, completely erasing it has always been associated with time. Priscilla had no youki signature before she fought Teresa because she never used it. Teresa may not have used her youki often, but she still had a noticeable signature. Irene said to Clare that she had no signature because it had been years since her release and Raph confirmed that once she did release she radiated like a normal warrior. Raph hadn't used youki since she failed the soul link and Teresa met her at the moment she was about to lose it.

On the other hand some characters are very good at suppressing or hiding their youki without spending much time. Riful can suppress her youki to the point that you have to know a trick to detect her and as Galatea said, "she's disguising it so well it's scary". But she cannot erase it if you know the trick. Same with Galatea and the youki pills. Youki pills work on most. Completely erasing youki seems to take time (or surgery in the case of the Abyssal Feeders). Priscilla as an AB has thrown a wrench into the system as she has almost completely cloaked her youki to the point Renee cannot sense her, but she still has youki there. Raciella also still has youki even though it is hidden deep.

So if I had to hazard a guess I would say any Claymore and any AB can suppress their youki. Some are very good at it. But to have no signature at all youki must be suppressed over a period of time.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

I guess you mean this passage from Rafaela.

長い間妖気を完全に消していたから見つけることができなかったが、高速剣を使ったのは失敗だったな・・・お かげで今は普通の戦士のように妖気が外に漏れ出ている。　

My not-so-good translation:I wasn't able to find you since you had completely erased your yoki for a long time but it was a blunder for you to use your Quick Sword technique...thanks to it, your yoki is leaking like a normal warrior.

Yes, yoki sounds more like youki but yoki seems to be near official.

I'd like to think that Irene knew the risk from the beginning but that, admiring Teressa and Clare's passionate way of living, she placed it over her usual cool judgment and her hermitage, in other words, the life of just escaping form the org.

There are several places to check in the manga. I would also check the Extra chapter when Rubel tracks down Rafaela and asks her to be #5 of the organization. There also maybe a bit said about the ghosts. One sport is Riful speculating. Dietrich might say something. There is also a scene with the org. :) I am far too lazy to look for it myself though.

If you think they are speculations/possibilities, then, I have nothing against them. ;)

:) The problem maybe that I am a bit of dabbler at writing myself, and I like to use metaphors and Double meanings myself. But honestly, I could see myself write the beginning of that chapter very easily, describing things as Clare entered the ruins. I like descriptive writing, though my philosophy on it is to describe the actions, emotions and thoughts of the characters in detail, and be a be more vague on the objects so the reader can imagine the scene. :) Besides object descriptions can be a bit boring, IMO. I don't care about the details of what a character wears. :D

[Anima]

OMG. You guys are getting worked up for nothing, really.

On topic, I liked Tabitha's new look. :p

[yezhanquan]

Still, she probably should get one of Rabona's womenfolk to tie it properly.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

@Gangsta: So as I understand it you want some form of validation by opened minded forum users saying "yes that tunnel could, because there is absolutely no evidence that meets your criteria supporting or refuting it, be called the Witch's Maw." Is that right?

No I need no validation. By respecting my intelligence, I mean don't post such sarcastic replies with such phony correlations that obviously don't relate to the original one, such as, a chapter title possibly having a double meaning to it in the regards of Witch's Maw because a maw can be a, "a cavernous opening that resembles the open jaws of an animal: the gaping maw of hell," as described by dictionary.com, as in what Clare walks into, and then trying to correlate that by comparing Irene's hut with Irene not being fit for battle. I know the difference and you know the difference between the two. To me, it is quite insulting intelligence wise that you expect me to expect that you can't see the difference there, when you are obviously both intelligent and creative, Or are you saying that I have overestimated your intelligence and creativity? I really don't even know how to reply to a message where someone is playing dumb on purpose, except to point it out. I mean any other kind of reply would be not just painful but fruitless. I want you to respect my intelligence and at least reply to me intelligently, instead of pretending that you don't get this or thatt, when we both know that you do.

As for the message about my view point about the Witch maw, is it really necessary to try to disprove a post when someone says something like, "this is my own personal view on this in this chapter," when the point is up for interpretation, it is something that can't be proven or disproved, and the person is just giving his point of view on the matter. I mean not everything one says on here is a theory. There is speculation and opinions and brainstorming that goes on here as well.

[chibamonster]

Why is your idea that the witch's maw is the tunnel good and Irene's hut showing someone not fit for battle bad? YOU are judging peoples ideas they hold. Why do you get special treatment? Why can't I just say it and have everyone agree? Because this is an interactive forum. If you post an idea people will talk about it. And if you have a theory people will go through your logic and pick it apart. Some theories stand. Others get blown away.

The problem is that you seem to think that having "no evidence and this is just my opinion" is some sort of embassy that you can jump in and out of to avoid the inevitable conflict that comes from sharing ideas. "You can't argue this! I am standing on no evidence! No one can prove anything I don't want them to here! You are all just assuming! Btw, how about this? Oh wait! Not up for discussion!"

You can think anything you want to and you can write it into any fan fiction you want. Just don't expect people to mistake fan fiction for analysis of canon material. Please specify when you just want to share an opinion and when you are actually putting forward a real theory that is up for discussion and it will save all of us a lot of time. If it is just an opinion and it doesn't matter if people accept or reject it, why defend it at all?

[Gangsta Spanksta]

:p You don't think that you are now not only just insulting my intelligence, but the intelligence of every other reader in this forum with that? Again, the witches maw can describe the scenery where the entire battle takes place as a metaphor. What exactly about Irene's hut is not fit for battle? What was that about Forest of endless gravestones, when there were no gravestones even shown in a forest. Again, you are playing dumb, pretending not to get the point, and everyone can see it because you are underestimating the intelligence of the other readers. Yeah go ahead, and ignore the point that one correlation fits the title, while the others don't, and ignore the entire explanation of why and how. And yes, call what I said a theory again, when I said I wasn't making theories. You make it seem that you don't understand the difference between opinion, fact, speculation and theory, anyway. I know you've called things facts before that weren't but were supporting evidence instead.

But honestly, continuing this conversation with you is fruitless, because you are obviously just trolling now.

[Throne Invader]

Nah, I think yoki suppression is a skill in both Priscilla and Raphaela's case. In Irene's case, she suppressed her yoki for so long that well, it's kind of......its like when you put water into a refrigerator for a time being, it freezes up and stops flowing.

[chibamonster]

@Gangsta: But Gangsta, you don't need evidence to have an opinion on something! It is an opinion it can't be right or wrong. Or is just MY opinion wrong? Quit judging others based on their lack of evidence! There is absolutely no evidence supporting or disproving Irene's house and it's isolation not being a metaphor for being fit for battle. Why can't you lay off my idea?

And I call things facts and evidence when they actually happened in the story :D.

@AmoreDoll: If it is only a skill then why did Teresa sense youki within Raphaela when she was a trainee? She explained it was so faint it was about to dissappear. I do think that being very good at youki suppression is a skill though, like Riful can do. She can trick just about anyone. Even Galatea praised her. I am just talking about having 0% youki reading on anyones radar, Galatea and Teresa included. That has only appeared in the story when accompanied by suppression for a long period of time, years in most cases (don't know how long it took Raph).

I am not sure what happened with Helen though in her guerilla attack on isley. She was using her stretchy arm attack and she hadn't done that since pieta. In Pieta she was able to do it without her eyes even turning gold. Was she able to do it without youki at all or was she able to use some and then go back down? I'd have to double check the raw based off what Isley said. I am also curious about Cynthia's youki healing technique...

[Cyclone]

@Gangsta:
I'm afraid chiba is right here - you are trying to essentially name the place based on nothing else than what you think would be cool.

I'll put it another way for you though:
IF, in the story, the place is known as "the witch's maw", who named it that way? Did Riful call herself a witch? Duff called his girlfriend a witch? No Claymore ever made it back from the place before (well, the one that did, was too busy coughing blood on Clare she didn't have a chance to name it) so it wasn't them. A villager maybe? Somehow they didn't get eaten by any of the youma, Riful or Duff? There simply is no one other than a 3rd person narrator who could name it that way and live to tell about it.

If Riful named the place anything at all, I get the impression she'd name it something disgustingly cutesy rather than scary.

[Cyclone]

I couldn't remember the scene but, my memory was refreshed by the extracts...I guess it's the scene where Teresa is wondering if she should face the assassination team or not.

なんてのが通用するような連中でも...ないんだろうなやはり...

To their kind, this (hiding)...won't work, it seems, of course...

OR

They are not kind to whom this will work...it seems, of course...

You know, Teressa knows they are single digit numbers...so, she must know what they are up to...

...

When sentences are divided into groups of a few words, the difference in the word order between these two languages become troublesome. Anybody who translate one to another should be good at both languages...

Thanks for the insight.
I've spent the last 2+ hours reading and re-reading those few lines.

なんてのが通用するような連中でも...ないんだよなやはり...

I have several conclusions:

1) You're probably right, the right translation is indeed probably: "of course, but [they are] not like a bunch [who let] pass such things"
2) I mistakenly modified 連中with 通用する rather than the なんての.
3) Japanese with it's missing parts of speech and 100% backwards sentence structure is evil horribly convoluted and ambigious langauge
4) I guess I still don't understand where sub-sentences start and end.
5) I'm tired and going to bed.

[Sleepy Speculator]

By contrast i was knackered after work and just woke up... thanks for the translation 3 pages or so back Cyclone, i did have a suspicion that didn't fit... <sigh> if only i had an aptitude for language.

Anyhow Chiba i do think you did use a straw man argument, even if the witch's maw has nothing to do with the name of the ruins on mt zakol.

Either way Clare knows who Duff is and found him in all the western lands, not a bad job... just got a little too close, probably wanted visual confirmation.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

@Gangsta:
I'm afraid chiba is right here - you are trying to essentially name the place based on nothing else than what you think would be cool.

I'll put it another way for you though:
IF, in the story, the place is known as "the witch's maw", who named it that way? Did Riful call herself a witch? Duff called his girlfriend a witch? No Claymore ever made it back from the place before (well, the one that did, was too busy coughing blood on Clare she didn't have a chance to name it) so it wasn't them. A villager maybe? Somehow they didn't get eaten by any of the youma, Riful or Duff? There simply is no one other than a 3rd person narrator who could name it that way and live to tell about it.

If Riful named the place anything at all, I get the impression she'd name it something disgustingly cutesy rather than scary.

The thing started with several people, not just me, saying why they thought it was called the witch's maw. It has also been called so before by others. I like some others thought of it as the name of the place, and I like some others gave my opinion as to why I thought it was so. But really, it wasn't based on nothing else besides what I thought was cool. Chiba himself provided a definition, and while I originally read the chapter I saw the metaphor of the Maw and what Clare was entering. I do a little writing of short stories and poetry here and there, and writing a title called Witch's Maw for a story about such a place would be perfectly a common thing to do. But honestly, it was just a sort of I think it was named so because of __ thing that a few people participated in. As for who named it, a perfectly valid example was given by someone else of the villagers naming it so because people disappeared from there. But honestly, it was just some non serious speculation that was going on there, as anyone who reads the beginning of it can see. There absolutely no proof of why yagi named it the way he did. So, other speculation about it not being a place didn't have proof either. I just think that Chiba has the habit of trying to turn any talk on here into talk of theories when they were not. Then, he goes on asking you to point out the facts in the story, even when it was just idle chit chat, and nobody was postulating theories. Honestly, reread the beginning of this silly subthread, and you can see it wasn't serious talk going on there.

[Tale]

1) You're probably right, the right translation is indeed probably: "of course, but [they are] not like a bunch [who let] pass such things"
Yes, it's more like that, I guess.

2) I mistakenly modified 連中with 通用する rather than the なんての.
That explains a lot.

3) Japanese with it's missing parts of speech and 100% backwards sentence structure is evil horribly convoluted and ambigious langauge
Yea...It even omits subjects... :heh:


4) I guess I still don't understand where sub-sentences start and end.
In your translation, it is "[who let] pass such things" but you must have already understood since you managed to translate the quote.

Thanks for the insight.
I've spent the last 2+ hours reading and re-reading those few lines.
5) I'm tired and going to bed.
Good luck in learning the language. ;)

[Tale]

@AmoreDoll: If it is only a skill then why did Teresa sense youki within Raphaela when she was a trainee? She explained it was so faint it was about to dissappear. I do think that being very good at youki suppression is a skill though, like Riful can do. She can trick just about anyone. Even Galatea praised her. I am just talking about having 0% youki reading on anyones radar, Galatea and Teresa included.
My take is sensing yoki is common ability to Claymores but it's needed to be polished. Suppressing yoki will probably require higher skill for Claymores and probably to awakened ones, too. Renee hasn't noticed Priscilla till she comes very close to her. I don't think Priscilla is trained but she is a kind of prodigy, who can do many things without training. Renee is also tricked by Riful, too. So, probably it's Renee's yoki detection skill vs Riful's yoki suppression skill and the latter conquered the former.

As for requirement of time for yoki suppression, if it takes time for Teressa to suppress yoki, then, why was she trying to suppress her yoki after she sensed/spotted the assassination team? The probable answers would be: 1. Teressa had been suppressing her yoki after she decided to part with the org and was simply hiding herself in the town. 2. Teressa the Faint Smile doesn't need to suppress her yoki since she is not using yoki. Especially for her yoki sensing ability, she'd better without using yoki and she had probably been keeping yoki suppressed even before acquainted with Clare.

Also, if it is easy for the Ghosts to switch between suppressing yoki and releasing it, then, why do they need to be so hesitant to release it. Are they trying to be very careful? Since they are trying to go against the org, I don't think they are too cautious.

The problem is, according to the information currently available, they can be taken in either way. Some people seem to be very sure but I'm not sure about this.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

I think all Claymores can suppress their Yoki, making them harder to spot. It is just that they don't become completely invisible. That means that you can't sneak up on another Claymore, even if you are suppressing your yoki, if you are not highly skilled at it. It's like a blimp on the radar: a normal Claymore would be a big blimp, a Claymore that went from recently using it to sudden suppression would be a smaller blimp that shows up only if you get closer to the center of the radar screen. A Claymore that has been suppressing it for years doesn't show up at all. The longer you suppress, the smaller the blimp on the radar screen, the closer to center it will have to be to show up, until it eventually disappears completely. Of course, suppressing your yoki means that your moves aren't as powerful. Clare's current wind cutter is 5 times less powerful than the quicksword she used on him during their first fight. I think it was 5 times she told Galatea, when Galatea asked her if she still knew that move. We know that Clare has increased in strength, significantly, so that is quite a drop in power you get for suppressing your yoki.

[MisterJB]

People, people. I think we are the one at the Witch's Maw right now. Let's get the hell out of here before Dauf appears:p


I'll put it another way for you though:
IF, in the story, the place is known as "the witch's maw", who named it that way? Did Riful call herself a witch? Duff called his girlfriend a witch? No Claymore ever made it back from the place before (well, the one that did, was too busy coughing blood on Clare she didn't have a chance to name it) so it wasn't them. A villager maybe? Somehow they didn't get eaten by any of the youma, Riful or Duff? There simply is no one other than a 3rd person narrator who could name it that way and live to tell about it.

If Riful named the place anything at all, I get the impression she'd name it something disgustingly cutesy rather than scary.

I gonna agree with Cyclone on this one. Instead of thinking about what Yagi-san could have tought when writing these titles, I think we should go with what we know about the story and IMO Claymores wouldn't call that place Witch's Maw because they know that the one in there is an Awakened Being. After all, they didn't call Alphonse the "Centaur's Den." (this would be a cool name actually)

So, humans should be the only one calling that place "Witch's Maw." and even tought it's true that Dauf's rods give the impression of teeth, what human could possibly see them when there are Yoma guarding the way?

[Gangsta Spanksta]

don't worry. You only have to run faster than the slowest person. :D

[Gangsta Spanksta]

So, humans should be the only one calling that place "Witch's Maw." and even tought it's true that Dauf's rods give the impression of teeth, what human could possibly see them when there are Yoma guarding the way?

Riful and Dauf only had recently started building an army, and using the place as a trap for claymores. Maw also equals trap (saying shut your trap would be the same as saying shut your maw too) But we don't honestly know that Riful and Dauf always had Yoma guarding the place. I think they were part of the trap. But if there are not yoma guarding the place, and people who didn't enter the cave got lucky amd had nothing come out after them, then such a name can come about. As for Claymores, they didn't know that, that was where Riful lived. The one that informed Clair that Jean group was in trouble was muttering something about it being stronger than suspected I think.

[MisterJB]

Riful and Dauf only had recently started building an army, and using the place as a trap for claymores. Maw also equals trap (saying shut your trap would be the same as saying shut your maw too) But we don't honestly know that Riful and Dauf always had Yoma guarding the place. I think they were part of the trap. But if there are not yoma guarding the place, and people who didn't enter the cave got lucky amd had nothing come out after them, then such a name can come about. As for Claymores, they didn't know that, that was where Riful lived. The one that informed Clair that Jean group was in trouble was muttering something about it being stronger than suspected I think.

Well, that's like asking if Isley always had an Awakened army. How can we know?

IMO, with a Yoki sensor like Galatea, the Org probrably had a good idea where Riful was. Like someone was speculating, Rimuto could have sent them there in a suicide mission or maybe in an attempt to have Riful use her powers so that Alicia could feel them and Jean was simply expendable. Notice that Galatea didn't try to save Jean, she was only there for Clare.

And even if they didn't know that Rifulwas in there, the Org wouldn't call it Witch's Maw. They knew it was only an Awakened Being. Yes, if a human survived, he could call it that way. But then again Riful didn't spend all of her time in the underground.

[Wiggle wyrm]

Speaking of AB armies, I wonder what kind of forces Riful’s amassed in the last 7 years. From her run-in with Audrey and Rachel we know that she’s had a pretty successful recruitment drive, but were they are they? The AB we’ve seen was the one that Clare and Cynthia killed in that town. Are they running interference, waiting for deployment orders or are they camped outside her lair guarding the Wi... um ...main entrance? :uhoh:

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Well, that's like asking if Isley always had an Awakened army. How can we know?

IMO, with a Yoki sensor like Galatea, the Org probrably had a good idea where Riful was. Like someone was speculating, Rimuto could have sent them there in a suicide mission or maybe in an attempt to have Riful use her powers so that Alicia could feel them and Jean was simply expendable. Notice that Galatea didn't try to save Jean, she was only there for Clare.

And even if they didn't know that Rifulwas in there, the Org wouldn't call it Witch's Maw. They knew it was only an Awakened Being. Yes, if a human survived, he could call it that way. But then again Riful didn't spend all of her time in the underground.

;) But you were the one who implied that there were always yoma there. We can't know, which is why this is speculation and not a theory. The standards for speculation are much lower. To form a theory, we would have to use an if statement in this case. The speculation is similar to the one that you present with Rimuto sending Jean on a Suicide mission. How can we know? It's like I keep saying on here: Speculation is speculation and doesn't require the same kind of evidence that a Theory does. You see the problem here? If we start saying what you can and can't say on here, saying that things require supporting evidence from the manga, then we can't make speculation like Rimuto sending Jean on a suicide mission, or how the witches maw might have been named. See this is a case where nobody made a claim of any sort. This is a case of someone presenting speculation and then another person treating said speculation like a claim. This is what the problem is on this thread: there are some people who won't let us speculate on things that they don't like, and start asking you for things that you aren't required to give? If we hold your speculation to the same standard, then you can't speculate that Rimuto sent Jean to the Witch's maw because there is absolutely no proof or evidence of any kind to support the speculation. The problem here is some people can't differentiate between making a Claim and friendly speculation. And then some people make speculation that also isn't supported by evidence in a manga using a brief mention by the manga as saying, "hey it's in the manga," when that is all there is and then what they are doing is no different from what they criticize others of doing.

Like I said: There is Fact, supporting evidence, opinion, speculation and theory. These are five different concepts, yet some people confuse between them.

[Tale]

don't worry. You only have to run faster than the slowest person. :D
I see. Now I guess I became the slowest person here according to you. :(

However, my excuse is that I simply missed chibamonster's post below.

@Tale and Aimless: While Claymores can definitely suppress their youki at any given point, completely erasing it has always been associated with time. Priscilla had no youki signature before she fought Teresa because she never used it. Teresa may not have used her youki often, but she still had a noticeable signature. Irene said to Clare that she had no signature because it had been years since her release and Raph confirmed that once she did release she radiated like a normal warrior. Raph hadn't used youki since she failed the soul link and Teresa met her at the moment she was about to lose it.

On the other hand some characters are very good at suppressing or hiding their youki without spending much time. Riful can suppress her youki to the point that you have to know a trick to detect her and as Galatea said, "she's disguising it so well it's scary". But she cannot erase it if you know the trick. Same with Galatea and the youki pills. Youki pills work on most. Completely erasing youki seems to take time (or surgery in the case of the Abyssal Feeders). Priscilla as an AB has thrown a wrench into the system as she has almost completely cloaked her youki to the point Renee cannot sense her, but she still has youki there. Raciella also still has youki even though it is hidden deep.

So if I had to hazard a guess I would say any Claymore and any AB can suppress their youki. Some are very good at it. But to have no signature at all youki must be suppressed over a period of time.

Well, I felt as if I were Yuma for a couple of minuites. :D So, subtle or not, no more insults please, which would let us escape from the "Witch's Maw", wherever it is, together.

[Throne Invader]

But does everyone agree with me that its a skill with Priscilla?:D

[Sleepy Speculator]

As a constant speculator, and inhabitant of a different mental plane, that doesn't require proper use of grammar, i've come to the following speculation.

Jean's mission to the Wi... Mt Zakol 'had' to have been approved by Rimuto which leaves only the question as to whether or not Rimuto was aware of Riful, and complicit in what amounts to a suicide mission.

Back in the slashers arc, Miria states that the 'chief' decided that Clare was to be included on the AB hunt. And Helen complains about what they were thinking, by sending Clare on the hunt. Also somewhere around here Clare asks about the chances of a hunt being arranged for Priscilla and is given the answer that they would judge and the chief would decide. Since Rimuto appears to be the chief and it appears he approves of the ab hunts it means he effectively sent Jean to ... Mt Zakol.

Secondly Riful states that the majority of her time has been spent sleeping and eating. She's in a location surrounded by human towns (food) and is inhabiting the ruins of a castle of some sort. So i make the assumption that when she says most of her time is spent sleeping that she doesn't move around much. This would of course allow the org to have a v.good idea of where she is, or at the very least the existence of an AB, especially since most Ab's at the time were solitary and Riful is co-habiting with Duff, meaning there are 2 Ab's hunting in the same area.

So Rimuto sends in a sacrificial hunting squad to get an idea of what's going on and does so 'under observation'. To contrast with the slashers hunt, Miria's team not only had a sub par expendable warrior Clare #47 (Katea #30 something? on Jean's team) but was observed by Galatea (Alicia was watching Jean's team).

[Arkham]

There were a lot of mouths to feed in "the witch's maw"

7 yoma outside the maw and 4 inside plus Riful and Duff,so it was a damn bloody feast!

Anyway, Jean's team missed quite a few yoma on their way in.

[Awakened]

But does everyone agree with me that its a skill with Priscilla?:D

I'm not sure if it's a skill. She might be just like the ghost. Riful seem to know how to do it.

[Throne Invader]

Omg Awakened! We forgot Flora's spirit. XD

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Sleepy: there is just one thing about that likelihood of that speculation, and that is that Jean and Company probably were not enough to flush Riful out for Alicia to see. It took Galatea, Clair, and Jean to get Riful to decide to move to a new base after releasing them. So Alicia maybe would've waited for years on the outside. That is unless Riful goes out to eat, but then they wouldn't need Jean team to catch her outside then.

AmoreDoll: I also think that hiding Yoki was Priscillas special ability, especially since she was a new recruit that quicly rose up in rank.

[Sleepy Speculator]

nah they didn't need to flush Riful out, just pinpoint her location. The fact Jean's team fell apart and got tortured to death is proof Riful's there, even if they couldn't immediately sense her because of her little yoki hiding trick. Clare and Galatea just made the situation more obvious, since between the 3 surviving claymores they would have killed Duff if Riful hadn't acted.

[Tale]

I wonder who is more cunning in this...the org or Riful? Riful was trying to recruit new member to her since Isley began to move to south. What she would do is to let the org think that there is an Awakened One, which would attract at least one digit number to her place.

So, my take is that the org didn't know that there was Riful and sent Jean's team to stop this imaginary "Awakened One." Riful is not controllable while the ex-male warrior to whom Miria's team was sent was controllable to some extent. I wonder when Galatea noticed Riful, though. Also, the org was busy with training Alicia and Beth and stopping Isley.

Rather, my question is, like some people asked in this thread, what Riful had been doing during the seven years of time, especially after she found Priscilla a threat.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

I wonder who is more cunning in this...the org or Riful? Riful was trying to recruit new member to her since Isley began to move to south. What she would do is to let the org think that there is an Awakened One, which would attract at least one digit number to her place.

So, my take is that the org didn't know that there was Riful and sent Jean's team to stop this imaginary "Awakened One." Riful is not controllable while the ex-male warrior to whom Miria's team was sent was controllable to some extent. I wonder when Galatea noticed Riful, though. Also, the org was busy with training Alicia and Beth and stopping Isley.

Rather, my question is, like some people asked in this thread, what Riful had been doing during the seven years of time, especially after she found Priscilla a threat.

That is pretty much my take on it too. Jean is not the kind of trouble maker that the org would want to get rid off. She is the type of warrior whose main characteristics are loyalty and honor. It would've made more sense to send someone more troublesome there. But then, perhaps Miria was already in the north. Out of curiosity, how was Flora a troublesome character? A bit too much like Cynthia perhaps?

[MonsieurRosseau]

Actually, I'm pretty sure that Riful was hiding her massive yoki. Galatea said that it was hard to see while talking to Clare in the Maw arc. She probably didn't sense where Riful was until she was quite close. The organization probably just got a request for a voracious eater type thing and sent Jean, Katea, and whatever the other two were named.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

That is how I see it too. The Claymore that fell in town said they encountered something stronger than they were expecting. I think the supporting evidence is stronger for the case that they didn't know, although MisterJB explained the case pretty well if they did know. But it is more based on speculation that the org did know, for which there really is no evidence at all. Then again, there is nothing wrong with speculation. :) I'm just trying to show people that speculation is different from theory, and to say there it shouldn't be judged by the same standards. One uses only evidence gathered from a world. The other one has an unknown factor it is based on, and there is no way at present to obtain if that factor is true or not. Just because that is the case, I don't think we should be limited to only discussing theory, and not be able to speak on speculation.

[Negativedark]

That is pretty much my take on it too. Jean is not the kind of trouble maker that the org would want to get rid off. She is the type of warrior whose main characteristics are loyalty and honor. It would've made more sense to send someone more troublesome there. But then, perhaps Miria was already in the north. Out of curiosity, how was Flora a troublesome character? A bit too much like Cynthia perhaps?

Flora may simply have lived too long. After a while Claymore's start to notice things and get suspicious. That's why in the Org's own words they prefer ones that die after a while. Galetea was pretty loyal until the Witches Maw. Even Teresea didn't really disobey orders until she met Claire. But as time goes on the Claymores start to find that the org has secrets, or get fed up with it, or find something else they want that overides whatever loyalty they have to it. The Org's ideal warriors are Alicia and Beth, not just because of strength, but also because they have no actual will of their own. They are just weapons, not soldiers or people.

[Tale]

Out of curiosity, how was Flora a troublesome character? A bit too much like Cynthia perhaps?
Maybe, she had this urge to show off her "splendid" Windcutter technique and ended up with duels occasionally. :D As for Cynthia, I had been wondering till Clare gave me a likely answer at page 30 of chapter 83. She is, simply, too kind to mercilessly follow strict orders of the org.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that Riful was hiding her massive yoki. Galatea said that it was hard to see while talking to Clare in the Maw arc. She probably didn't sense where Riful was until she was quite close. The organization probably just got a request for a voracious eater type thing and sent Jean, Katea, and whatever the other two were named.
A voracious eater=Awakened Being. So, your take seems to be near to my one. Even Galatea was outsmarted by Riful. So, probably, it was hard even for God-Eye to sense the true nature of her till she neared to her enough.

[chibamonster]

I'm still curious how Alicia ended up close enough to sense Riful, and for Riful to sense her. I can't imagine that Rimuto was just out for a walk with his precious little girl. Who was pulling the strings on that one?

[MonsieurRosseau]

Not to mention that Galatea's sensing then was considerably less than now. She couldn't sense anywhere near as far away as west from east. Even now, in the center, she could barely sense Isley's death.

I'm still curious how Alicia ended up close enough to sense Riful, and for Riful to sense her. I can't imagine that Rimuto was just out for a walk with his precious little girl. Who was pulling the strings on that one?

Perhaps the organization guessed where Riful was and sent the others to stir up her power. Thus proving at Alicia was designed to destroy Riful.

[Claymorez]

It seems Galatea respected Jean when she opposed her to protect clare, maybe there's some background story between Galatea and Jean? Like Miria and Hilda :D

[Gangsta Spanksta]

We can only speculate as to why Alicia was in the area. She was still in training. Riful may have blimped on the Radar once she started using her powers. I also am no so convinced that Alicia is as the org thinks. She has the mental capability of comparing her strength to riful and calculating how much damage she could give before dying. This is intelligence, though she may not have emotion or individuality.

[MisterJB]

I'm really starting to think that Jean was on a suicide mission.

Reasons for it:

1- She had a #30 on her team which is really rare

2- Jean ended up in Pieta. So Jean is the only Claymore that we know that was sent in the missions where the chances of meeting an AO were really high. Let's see 47 Claymores, 3 AOs and God know how many ABs. What are the odds?
And yes, I know that the Claymore were sent to delay the advance of Isley's army but the Org didn't know if Isley would appear in person in Pieta

3- I doubt very much that Alicia feeling Riful was just an incident. Alicia might sense Yoki better than Galatea but even so, Riful was probrably hiding her Yoki even on AO form and Alicia felt. While God Eye Galatea barely could feel Isley's death and Isley was figthing full powered

[hell88]

I'm really starting to think that Jean was on a suicide mission.

Reasons for it:

1- She had a #30 on her team which is really rare

2- Jean ended up in Pieta. So Jean is the only Claymore that we know that was sent in the missions where the chances of meeting an AO were really high. Let's see 47 Claymores, 3 AOs and God know how many ABs. What are the odds?
And yes, I know that the Claymore were sent to delay the advance of Isley's army but the Org didn't know if Isley would appear in person in Pieta

3- I doubt very much that Alicia feeling Riful was just an incident. Alicia might sense Yoki better than Galatea but even so, Riful was probrably hiding her Yoki even on AO form and Alicia felt. While God Eye Galatea barely could feel Isley's death and Isley was figthing full powered

Jean went to Pieta on her free will only because Clare did, and all the single digits are sent on missions where chances of meeting ABs and AOs are really high.

[MisterJB]

Jean went to Pieta on her free will only because Clare did, and all the single digits are sent on missions where chances of meeting ABs and AOs are really high.

You sure? I don't think so.

Jean said:
"Additionally, if I return to the Organization, they'll probrably just send me on this mission. So it really doesn't matter either way."

Yes, she followed Clare but apparently, the Org would have sent her to Pieta one way or another which was basically a big suicide mission.

Also, single digits like Jean are expected to fight against ABs but AOs, that's a different story.
Let's imagine that there are 100 ABs in the whole world. But there are only 3 AOs, so the chances of a group composed by the number 9 and a number 31 metting with an AO aren't that high

[chibamonster]

I am curious who put in the call to have a hunt on Riful sent. It was not the town that Clare was in as they were not cowering the way towns do when they have an infestation. This was "pre-kill all AB" manifesto time as well. Riful and Duffworked closely with Youma but she seemed to have them under control some how. The youma were even trained on how to fight Claymores as a team. Now Riful could have killed people in another town to get attention. It seemed she wanted Claymores to come. Also Rimuto wanted Alicia to scan Riful. I am curious how this all got coordinated...

[MisterJB]

I am curious who put in the call to have a hunt on Riful sent. It was not the town that Clare was in as they were not cowering the way towns do when they have an infestation. This was "pre-kill all AB" manifesto time as well. Riful and Duffworked closely with Youma but she seemed to have them under control some how. The youma were even trained on how to fight Claymores as a team. Now Riful could have killed people in another town to get attention. It seemed she wanted Claymores to come. Also Rimuto wanted Alicia to scan Riful. I am curious how this all got coordinated...

Riful might have send the request herself just to get Claymores to Awaken

[hell88]

You sure? I don't think so.

Yes well, I do.

[evil_kenshin]

I am curious who put in the call to have a hunt on Riful sent. It was not the town that Clare was in as they were not cowering the way towns do when they have an infestation. This was "pre-kill all AB" manifesto time as well. Riful and Duffworked closely with Youma but she seemed to have them under control some how. The youma were even trained on how to fight Claymores as a team. Now Riful could have killed people in another town to get attention. It seemed she wanted Claymores to come. Also Rimuto wanted Alicia to scan Riful. I am curious how this all got coordinated...

Its not to hard to figure out there probably was no request it was simliar to the 6 arms incident.

Send in a team of troublesome Claymore to fight Riful (not that they had any chance of winning) while having Alicia wait to sense Riful's yoki. Riful obviously had been at their current location for some time (considering Duff's remark of making that tunnel where Clare's sword got stuck due to the rods) so its no surprise eventually someone in the organization realized it was Riful's lair.

[chibamonster]

@Evil Kenshin: That is what I was thinking. The proximity of Alicia to the mess is definitely something quite odd for a girl who is never seen even in her own area.

On the other hand Riful was out actively looking for comrades as well so getting Claymores to hunt her was also something she wanted. Rubel figured out from Priscilla awakening that a war between the Abyssals was inevitable. I wonder if the rest of the organization figured it out too and was playing to get Riful to show up for their DBZ scouters.

There is a lot of complexity between the lines in the plot processes of Claymore. Like that the organization heard that Clare died from Galatea in the conflict with Riful and Rubel went by himself to find her and bring her back. Rubel is such a player.

[Ryus]

I really think Claire's range is very good, but even if we can't be sure how good it really is it's certain that Claire and Cynthia has a range capable of covering an area far superior of what Dauf could see or hear,so i still find quite impossible that they couldn't run, and have you seen how easily they escaped?They could escape in an istant,just an istant.....so i'll continue to belive that this was plotted by Claire,it makes more sense to me.
About the sweating i simply meant that imo it's not a sign of fear,nothing more.

While it can't be argued that the easily escaped. It can be argued as to why.

The argument besides the difference in power levels... Duff is on guard duty and can't go too far from Riful for too long. Since Renee by know has reattached her legs and only has Riful guarding her. So if Riful was distracted by an opponent Renee might escape. So Duff is out side acting as a guard dog (to both outside treats and as a backup if Renee runs for it). The 3 ghosts present where likely very hard to track down, meaning time already spent hunting them down and away from Riful. On top of that Clare hit him in the eyes right before they all split, so by the time he opened them they where gone, add to that how nearly perfect there auras are hidden. Meaning he'll have to track them all down again, wasting time away from Riful.

I'm not saying there isn't other reasons (I personally thought of a few, but posting endless theories is pointless), just that this theory (along with the others I mentioned in earlier posts) fits both what happened and what was said this chapter. Plus I believe awakened's theory (of Clare using Duff to injure Yuma, to get her follower out of the way) is really reaching out there and awakened (and awakened's supporters) have had to come up with too many explanations that are less plausible to support their theory.

We can only speculate about what running away from Duff would have done, yet you seem to have reached a conclusion before thinking about other possibilities. Sorry if you have and just didn't mention them or I missed them in all the posts.

Plus Duff gave away his position to any yoki user (claymore or AB) in the area, by awakening, means that he might have put Riful secret location danger, especially if they know his aura and how he is a know associate of Riful. Duff knows there is a good chance the organization might attempt a rescue of there more powerful sensors, especially if Riful the moron that.

@any supporters of the Clare using Duff to get Cynthia and Yuma out of the picture.
I still haven't heard a single well argued theory that explains how Clare's extra strong sensing ability got two very good sensors to walk straight into Duff and also explains how come they never showed any signs that they are mad at Clare after the fact Plus no one supporting that argument has even brought up the beginning of Chapter 85 where Clare, Cynthia, and Yuma talk about the risk of getting detected and go that direction knowingly of there own free will. I believe both Cynthia and Yuma would have easily figured out what Clare was doing since they knew what was in that direction. Could a supporter of the Clare planned to use Duff argument against Yuma and Cynthia please give an explanation of this (from the events of Chapter 85 involving Clare and group, not Helen and Deneva, to the end of Chapter 90), I couldn't think of any that didn't require adding what if's to explain it. If you believe that Clare only planned it in the moment that she saw Yuma's trapped leg, would you please explain how this was Clare's motivation and not past experience with Duff grabbing her skull and her desire to save Yuma and escape (Yoma is defensive class warrior, how has in the past regenerated a limb. On top of that it can be speculated that it happened in the short time between the two fights, since Yoma is seen wounded on the ground after the second battle when the survivors thank Miria for saving them thanks to her plan. She may not be skilled at it but she can do it in a short time.). If you believe that it was past experance, desire to free Yoma, and to get rid of her follower know that I disagree with you because it gets to far her core character of doing anything to save comrades (risking Jean fully awakening in her hands, without her Claymore). However if you believe that she used it after the fact (no premeditation) as an excuse to leave the group know that I agree with you.

If you believe that you have made such a case I'm sorry but it, to me, it has gotten lost in the ~40 pages of posts on this thread that have all happened in just a week... It just been too long since the original thought was posted for it to be the same as to whats it being argued to now.

I know the situation is very different.My only point in this example was that if you hide from someone it doesn't mean that you are obviously weaker,there could be other reasons,and even if the situation is clearly different it's an example of someone hiding even if she was A LOT more powerful.....you can't deny this simple fact.

I'm not denying the fact that there are more than one reason to hide from someone. Your Teresa example has another difference than the situation with Duff by the fact that Teresa clearly had a desire to hide her true power from the organization. Taken from hints dropped through out Teresa's fight with 2-5 (manly through Ilene's comments) and Extra Scene 1. I thought I had included it in my previous post but it turns out I left it out. Maybe I hit undo... oh well, to late to fix now.

Please note I too believe that Clare could have beaten Duff but only if she powered up (not sure about Riful though). I believe that for some reason she wants to stay hidden. I will only support an argument of Clare not being able to beat Duff if it ends with her choosing not powering up, I personally forget where PureYoki drew the line. I just thought you gave a horrible example for why someone would hide from someone they could beat, especially since your example involved 2 comrades (I argue Teresa still viewed herself as a Claymore; not killing the 5 warriors sent to kill her, killing a Yoma, and still wearing the Claymore uniform is what makes me support this view) and what you where comparing it to involved 2 enemies. Sorry but I don't believe the situations where even close. I think Clare hiding from Jean would have been a better example, since Teresa just knew she was stronger but hide compared to Clare being told she should be stronger than a 9 but still hide. After all even if Clare is stronger than Riful, or strong enough to do what she needs to and make a run for it, she clearly hasn't powered up during her 7 years of training and would naturally have some doubt about exactly how strong she is.

On a side note after rereading my post, I see it could have come off a bit rude. Sorry I was doing like 30 things at once while trying to post and didn't put too much thought into my wording. So if you took it as such, I apologize.

[Ryus]

Of course she could, but that way Cynthia and Yuma wouldn't have understood and accepted the situation.I think the whole point was to make them understand that they had to let her go alone because only this way she is sure that Cynthia won't follow her after taking Yuma in a safe place....and i don't think she planned to cut her leg from the beginning;showing them that they were too weak would be enought imo.The whole point wasn't to hurt Yuma but to convince them to give up.

Interesting thought. Kinda like it (still don't support the theory it backs up, but still nice idea). Still Kudos.

@everyone else: Sorry for responding to a post 24 hrs old but I've been gone for 24 hrs and am catching up. Also wow, 10 pages in 24 hrs! Remind me to never again to miss a second here, LOL!

[Awakened]

It might be a mistake for me to respond to this again...

@any supporters of the Clare using Duff to get Cynthia and Yuma out of the picture.
I still haven't heard a single well argued theory that explains how Clare's extra strong sensing ability got two very good sensors to walk straight into Duff

This is what got me thinking that it was Clare's fault.
How was this possible without Clare's group willingly walking towards Dauf?

They must have known he was there, they were hiding from him.

He was in Ab form, so he release yoki, he was detectable. By definition, you have to release yoki to go into awaken form.

and also explains how come they never showed any signs that they are mad at Clare after the fact Plus no one supporting that argument has even brought up the beginning of Chapter 85 where Clare, Cynthia, and Yuma talk about the risk of getting detected and go that direction knowingly of there own free will.
Cynthia and Uma did not look to happy after Clare told them of her plans.

I believe both Cynthia and Yuma would have easily figured out what Clare was doing since they knew what was in that direction. Could a supporter of the Clare planned to use Duff argument against Yuma and Cynthia please give an explanation of this (from the events of Chapter 85 involving Clare and group, not Helen and Deneva, to the end of Chapter 90), I couldn't think of any that didn't require adding what if's to explain it.

Easy answer, they were following Clare. Pulse they killed an Ab before. Clare is the only one that knew what was ahead of them. (what Duaf was capable off)


If you believe that Clare only planned it in the moment that she saw Yuma's trapped leg, would you please explain how this was Clare's motivation and not past experience with Duff grabbing her skull and her desire to save Yuma and escape (Yoma is defensive class warrior, how has in the past regenerated a limb. On top of that it can be speculated that it happened in the short time between the two fights, since Yoma is seen wounded on the ground after the second battle when the survivors thank Miria for saving them thanks to her plan. She may not be skilled at it but she can do it in a short time.). If you believe that it was past experance, desire to free Yoma, and to get rid of her follower know that I disagree with you because it gets to far her core character of doing anything to save comrades (risking Jean fully awakening in her hands, without her Claymore). However if you believe that she used it after the fact (no premeditation) as an excuse to leave the group know that I agree with you.

I will just say the Clare wanted something to happen so she created the condition to increase her chances of it happening. She usually do not plan the details.

The problem is that some people think that Clare is evil for wanting harm to come to Uma. The way I see it is, she wants to protect Uma.

If Uma can't follow Clare, Uma lives.
If Uma follows Clare, she gets killed by Riful.

Cut Uma legs off and she can't follow Clare. Uma is saved and Clare gets to go visit Riful.
---------------------------------------
To me Duaf running into Clare's group is a huge plot hole. Two of the top sensors accidentally running into an Ab is hard to swallow.

They also new he was there. There would have been no reason to hid if they could not have sensed him.

They could have easily ran away, evidence, they easily ran away.
Clare only telling them about her plans after she cuts Hma's leg off.

I not planning on starting this argument again. This is just a theory to fill in the plot hole. We might find out the truth some day.

[Tale]

There is a lot of complexity between the lines in the plot processes of Claymore.
Claymore is still doing relatively well with character development/interactions and complex plots, which are tough to be presented in a single work. I'm still wondering if Yagi will manage to end the story without loosing too many readers but, at least at the moment, I like how this work makes me think a lot about characters and plots.


Like that the organization heard that Clare died from Galatea in the conflict with Riful and Rubel went by himself to find her and bring her back. Rubel is such a player.
? Did I miss something? ([Edit]O.K. I was thinking of the current situation rather than the period before the Northern Conflict. :P) Rubel seems to have came across to Clare (, Cynthia and Yuma) by accident while he was searching for Renee, the org's replacement for Galatea (This is mere speculation but I am wondering if Renee is out there for detecting exact location of Riful to assist Alicia and Beth). However, of course, Rubel is taking advantage of the situation as usual.

BTW, during the conversation of Rubel, Clare said that Rubel sent her to the male Awakened Being, hoping she is killed but is it true or is it just emotional outrage of Clare? Different from Miria, she shows her not-so-friendly feelings and doubts quite straightly to him. In any case, Rubel is an interesting character both in the overall plot and his relationships to Clare and Miria.

[Throne Invader]

I agree too that Jean was being sent on a suicide mission. Not to mention she had a number 30 + with her. Asides from that they were probably just sent to extinguish the yoma in the mountain but were captured by Riful. Its not much of a surprise if they were caught by surprise given that Riful can hide her yoki.

[Aimless]

@chiba: I think the only valid explanation for both the presence of Jean and the proximity of Alicia is that the mission was a set up whose sole purpose was to give Alicia a chance to measure Riful's power. Consider what we know about Riful:

Prior to the advent of Priscilla, she had apparently stayed put for quite some time; the organization likely knew her whereabouts all along. Even were that not the case, Galatea commented that Riful had recently become active, so the Org. was not unaware of her activities at the time. Thus, pre-positioning Alicia to monitor the fight is no stretch. Secondly, Riful's body is apparently resilient even in comparison to Duff's. Galatea managed to wound Duff, after all, and yet the only two techniques we've seen even scratch Riful have been the drill sword (Helen variety) and Rachel's dirt sword. At the time of that arc, the only Claymore (that we're aware of) who possesses the capability of damaging either of them is Jean. It's possible that the mission was triggered solely to kill the group of youma that Riful had gathered, but the presence of the one Claymore capable of damaging Riful - not to mention the presence of Alicia - makes this unlikely in the extreme; I think we must assume that the Org. knew whom the mission was targeting.

If we assume this, then the makeup of the team is insane - unless the Org. is specifically setting up the team for failure. On the other hand, if we assume that the sole goal of the mission was to force Riful to draw out enough of her power to repel them, then is all comes together. Jean must be present, because she's the only one who can force Riful to act (Riful could let the others swing at her until their arms fell off without suffering a scratch). The rest of the team is just enough power to try to protect Jean until she can fulfill her role, and no more. This fits what we know about the Org's view of the warriors (disposable tools) - given her personality, Jean was probably already classed as a troublemaker, and I'd be willing to bet the other three were as well.

The only oddities here are the Org's seeming incompetence (Jean's team was severely overmatched by Duff on his own, such that Riful never became involved) and the presence of Clare and Galatea. Clare's presence is easily explainable by the providence of plot, and Galatea was there because she was tracking Clare, so I'm really only left wondering why Jean was beaten so easily.

It seems unlikely that the Org. was unaware of Duff's presence, and even more unlikely that they anticipated Jean could defeat Duff. Perhaps they expected Riful to act on her own? If they didn't know Riful was aware of Alicia's presence, perhaps they believed that she would act directly instead of leaving things to Duff, although that seems to be stretching it. Or, maybe, it's just the case that they were willing to sacrifice Jean and company for even a remote chance of success - that seems more in keeping with their methods. Or, perhaps a third party (Rubel?) encouraged Rimuto to have a sufficiently optimistic view of the plan (and a sufficiently disposable view of Jean) to be willing to risk it - that might explain the seeming bad judgment on the Org.'s part.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

You sure? I don't think so.

Jean said:
"Additionally, if I return to the Organization, they'll probrably just send me on this mission. So it really doesn't matter either way."

Yes, she followed Clare but apparently, the Org would have sent her to Pieta one way or another which was basically a big suicide mission.

Also, single digits like Jean are expected to fight against ABs but AOs, that's a different story.
Let's imagine that there are 100 ABs in the whole world. But there are only 3 AOs, so the chances of a group composed by the number 9 and a number 31 metting with an AO aren't that high

Jean said that because she already had went AWOL while following Clare instead of reporting back to the org, and rubel and Rafaela caught her doing so. She would've been punished no matter what, after that.

[Throne Invader]

I am curious who put in the call to have a hunt on Riful sent. It was not the town that Clare was in as they were not cowering the way towns do when they have an infestation. This was "pre-kill all AB" manifesto time as well. Riful and Duffworked closely with Youma but she seemed to have them under control some how. The youma were even trained on how to fight Claymores as a team. Now Riful could have killed people in another town to get attention. It seemed she wanted Claymores to come. Also Rimuto wanted Alicia to scan Riful. I am curious how this all got coordinated...

She was gathering allies for her big clash with Isley. Where else would she get awakened beings from? She was a former claymore so she knows how the org dispatches their teams. She was probably very expectant of Jean a single digit warrior, so I practically agree with you chiba :)

[chibamonster]

@chiba: I think the only valid explanation for both the presence of Jean and the proximity of Alicia is that the mission was a set up whose sole purpose was to give Alicia a chance to measure Riful's power. Consider what we know about Riful:

Prior to the advent of Priscilla, she had apparently stayed put for quite some time; the organization likely knew her whereabouts all along. Even were that not the case, Galatea commented that Riful had recently become active, so the Org. was not unaware of her activities at the time. Thus, pre-positioning Alicia to monitor the fight is no stretch. Secondly, Riful's body is apparently resilient even in comparison to Duff's. Galatea managed to wound Duff, after all, and yet the only two techniques we've seen even scratch Riful have been the drill sword (Helen variety) and Rachel's dirt sword. At the time of that arc, the only Claymore (that we're aware of) who possesses the capability of damaging either of them is Jean. It's possible that the mission was triggered solely to kill the group of youma that Riful had gathered, but the presence of the one Claymore capable of damaging Riful - not to mention the presence of Alicia - makes this unlikely in the extreme; I think we must assume that the Org. knew whom the mission was targeting.

If we assume this, then the makeup of the team is insane - unless the Org. is specifically setting up the team for failure. On the other hand, if we assume that the sole goal of the mission was to force Riful to draw out enough of her power to repel them, then is all comes together. Jean must be present, because she's the only one who can force Riful to act (Riful could let the others swing at her until their arms fell off without suffering a scratch). The rest of the team is just enough power to try to protect Jean until she can fulfill her role, and no more. This fits what we know about the Org's view of the warriors (disposable tools) - given her personality, Jean was probably already classed as a troublemaker, and I'd be willing to bet the other three were as well.

The only oddities here are the Org's seeming incompetence (Jean's team was severely overmatched by Duff on his own, such that Riful never became involved) and the presence of Clare and Galatea. Clare's presence is easily explainable by the providence of plot, and Galatea was there because she was tracking Clare, so I'm really only left wondering why Jean was beaten so easily.

It seems unlikely that the Org. was unaware of Duff's presence, and even more unlikely that they anticipated Jean could defeat Duff. Perhaps they expected Riful to act on her own? If they didn't know Riful was aware of Alicia's presence, perhaps they believed that she would act directly instead of leaving things to Duff, although that seems to be stretching it. Or, maybe, it's just the case that they were willing to sacrifice Jean and company for even a remote chance of success - that seems more in keeping with their methods. Or, perhaps a third party (Rubel?) encouraged Rimuto to have a sufficiently optimistic view of the plan (and a sufficiently disposable view of Jean) to be willing to risk it - that might explain the seeming bad judgment on the Org.'s part.

WONDERFUL ANALYSIS AND SPECULATION! One thing I think that might add to this confusing picture is Raki. Rubel and Raphaela track down Clare after Riful's battle and Rubel offers to bring Clare back into the organization. Clare is hesitant, Rubel threatens her, and Rubel mentions that Raki has been captured by slave traders and taken north so really Clare should head that way anyway. Clare immediately think's Rubel was behind it and Rubel claims that it is common sense...

Rubel's information is too accurate to just be common sense especially since he knows that Clare is out looking for Raki as well which is quite some information considering that Clare had not talked to anyone about Raki at all and left the organization in the middle. Raki is dangerous to Rubel after all since Raki has met awakened beings and seen Clare go over her limit twice. As partially awakened Claymores coming to the knowledge of the organization is Rubels biggest fear it is safe to say Rubel had a hand in getting Raki into a prison in a town that was soon attacked by AB's. If nothing else he confirmed it happened.

Rubel may not have known where Clare was, but following Raki would have been a good place to start. Clare wasn't in the town by mt. Zakol by chance, she was following Raki's trail. Do I think Rubel helped organize Jeans mission? Possibly. This whole plot part is shrouded in mystery. Rubel is too much of a player to leave it all to chance though.

One thing I am still not sure how it fits in is the fact that Riful wanted comrades, as AmoreDoll said. Maybe the organization realized she would as Isley had already formed an army. Rubel knew as soon as Priscilla awakened that the balance of power had been interrupted and a battle was coming. The other members of the organization might have known it as well. I am just curious how Jean's hunt of Riful got started. Did Riful really call in an order herself? If she did and the organization knew it that really would be a golden opportunity. There are so many sides that are benefited in the close area around Mt. Zakol that the hunt could have started many ways. It was great for everyone but the Claymores involved, of course.

On a different note about suppression: When Rubel introduces Raphaela and explains why she has no youki he says it is because she excels in suppression more than any warrior. Then he corrected himself and said she has no youki reading not so much because of suppression but because she has fought for years without ever once releasing her youki.

There are characters who are gifted at suppression like Riful who can deceive almost anyone and then there are ones who do not use their youki and cloak completely from years of not using youki.

[Ryus]

AmoreDoll: I also think that hiding Yoki was Priscillas special ability, especially since she was a new recruit that quicly rose up in rank.

I see your point and understand it, however that could also be explained with the time argument. Since through out her training I doubt she ever had a need to even use a fraction of her power. Meaning she's never used it, hence undetectable. Not sure where I stand on the issue, yet. Just putting forth another idea as to why. At the very least it could be reasonably argued that Pricilla would have a shorter time at recloaking than others, still working on my thoughts though.

Side note: I'm almost caught up to the day I missed, and the day before that I only really skimmed though posts. So I had two days to catch up on, kinda. Also it appears that your Clare planned to run into Duff's discussion has ended. Sorry for bring it back up, I made an assumption that it was still on going based on its momentum and conviction, sorry.

[Tale]

I think no Claymore was considered to be able to go against an AO at that time. The org was simply counting on the power balance of three AOes but, since Isley moved to the south, the "trace" was being destroyed and the org put their priority on their project of Alicia and Beth and, maybe, Abyss Feeders. I totally forgotten about the presence of Alicia at that time (Oh, my memory...) till I scroll back the thread a bit (Oh, my laziness...). Yes, the org guy mentioned the name Riful clearly to Alicia. Then, Galatea and the org knew the presence of Riful and her trick from the start and played as if they had been tricked, using Jean's team as a ploy, hadn't they? They only needed the power to deal with Dauf in order to make Riful appear to the surface and let Alicia observe her. In any case, just judging from the result, where Jean, Galatea and Clare were required to take only Dauf, the org's estimation was very optimistic. Or, as Aimless mentioned, the information of the org was not shared and they acted on separately...


On a different note about suppression: When Rubel introduces Raphaela and explains why she has no youki he says it is because she excels in suppression more than any warrior. Then he corrected himself and said she has no youki reading not so much because of suppression but because she has fought for years without ever once releasing her youki.

There are characters who are gifted at suppression like Riful who can deceive almost anyone and then there are ones who do not use their youki and cloak completely from years of not using youki.
My current interpretation is bit RPG-ish...one who hasn't released youki gets huge plus modifier in suppressing youki as well as his/her natural ability and youki suppression skill and the added result is compared with the result of a character who is attempting to detect youki.

[Aimless]

Rubel's information is too accurate to just be common sense especially since he knows that Clare is out looking for Raki as well which is quite some information considering that Clare had not talked to anyone about Raki at all and left the organization in the middle. Raki is dangerous to Rubel after all since Raki has met awakened beings and seen Clare go over her limit twice. As partially awakened Claymores coming to the knowledge of the organization is Rubels biggest fear it is safe to say Rubel had a hand in getting Raki into a prison in a town that was soon attacked by AB's. If nothing else he confirmed it happened.

This is a good point, and leads me to believe it even more likely that Rubel had a hand in the events surrounding the triggering of Jean's mission. Despite admitting that he had lost track of Clare to the Org., he was wandering around Mt. Zakol prior to Clare's resurfacing - otherwise, he could never have encountered Raki. What reason might he have had for said sojourn, and what other webs might the spider have spun whilst there? I'm almost willing to believe Rubel was the Witch. ;)

There are characters who are gifted at suppression like Riful who can deceive almost anyone and then there are ones who do not use their youki and cloak completely from years of not using youki.

While I agree with this completely, I'm still left wondering if the ability to suppress is a learned skill. Basically, what I want to know is if it will still take years for Deneve and Helen to suppress their youki a second time. This has plot implications either way; if its faster the second time around, then it's possible that the Ghost's cover is not completely blown - the two could resuppress in time for the ultimate engagement with the Org. If it's not, then that means the Ghosts might as well drop their suppression entirely, since Deneve and Helen will stand out like beacons to their enemies (although, tactically, this might be useful in and of itself).

[Throne Invader]

Hmm.. I still stick with the idea that yoki is a special skill Priscilla has. Priscilla reached up to the high rank of number 2 fueled by hatred for yoma. I can't imagine her training without releasing any yoki since, she has tendencies like Clare to go berserk. So it's gotta be something she can fully control.

[Tale]

This is a good point, and leads me to believe it even more likely that Rubel had a hand in the events surrounding the triggering of Jean's mission. Despite admitting that he had lost track of Clare to the Org., he was wandering around Mt. Zakol prior to Clare's resurfacing - otherwise, he could never have encountered Raki. What reason might he have had for said sojourn, and what other webs might the spider have spun whilst there? I'm almost willing to believe Rubel was the Witch. ;)
Actually, as for Raki, Rubel knows Raki and he questioned Clare about him in the earlier stage of the work... :heh: It won't take time for Rubel to see the importance of Raki for Clare since he knows Clare for a long time.


While I agree with this completely, I'm still left wondering if the ability to suppress is a learned skill.
If you consider both skill and natural ability are plus modifiers, then, you don't need to decide which should be left.

[Taylor_Maclaurin]

Cut Uma legs off and she can't follow Clare. Uma is saved and Clare gets to go visit Riful.
OK, but how Clare could be sure that Duff wouldn't grab Yuma by her neck? Would she cut it too? Or would she decloak and used youki to defeat Dauff? If it was planned, then it was split second decision, she just used this opportunity but I don't believe she planned it beforehand.

The problem is that some people think that Clare is evil for wanting harm to come to Uma. The way I see it is, she wants to protect Uma.
Yes, under circumstances we've seen it probably would be more safe fore Yuma but she couldn't have known that.

All in all I'm with Pure Yoki on this, although I find your theory very interesting Awakened.

[Ryus]

I sent a PM to Awakened apologizing for bring this back up. In short I misclicked between last page and page 38, so I thought this was an on going conversation. However it isn't in my sent box (hopefully it arrived).

I don't know the protocal of posting PM's but I never mentioned anything personal and it was pretty much a normal thread post, so there should be no harm. If you want to read it it's in the spoiler. I'm mainly posting it since I have major doubt it arrived in awakens's inbox.

Sorry for bring it up again, I hadn't read the thread for 24 hours and only skimmed through it the 24 hours before that. Before I posted I clicked on the last page button and saw page 38, however I must have misclicked since clearly you where on page 45... On page 38 the conversation was still on going.

However after posting I realized my mistake... Oops! Sorry!

I'm great full you took the time to answer the question. Since what you posted made far more since then the convoluted meaning I was getting after all you responses to PureYoki. It still doesn't make enough since for me to support it, however it makes enough for me to accept that it is an acceptable argument without any major flaws. I still believe Clare didn't take advantage of injuring Yoma until after the fact, when she took full advantage of it.

On a side note I know enough about psychology to know that without emotions it's impossible to make decisions, so in a since emotions are what sway decisions based on our processing of possible outcomes. I just believe that Clare emotions would never let her risk a friend for personal gain. I do believe that to be the reason she charged to save Jean from Rigardo, she couldn't risk Jean for any logic. So for your theory to be true Clare must have know that her power level was strong enough to Duff and to be able to powerup fast enough to save her comrades if Duff was about to kill one of them, so Clare emotions about risking a friends life would be negated and she could focus on her desire to be rid of Cynthia and Yuma.

Personally I believe Clare's doubt of the windcutter and her desire to stay hidden to be able to sneak into Riful's lair to meet Raphaela played a far bigger part in her final action of cutting off Yuma's leg than separating from the others.

Note I do believe Clare took advantage of the situation after the fact. My disagreement is when she took advantage of the situation.

If people want to drop this it's fine by me (I'm fine with supporters of the idea having a final say, I think they deserve it after my mistake.)

[Aimless]

Actually, as for Raki, Rubel knows Raki and he questioned Clare about him in the earlier stage of the work... :heh: It won't take time for Rubel to see the importance of Raki for Clare since he knows Clare for a long time.

Sure, Rubel knew Raki, but he should have had no reason to suspect that Raki might be wandering around the town at the base of Mt. Zakol on his own. It's implausible that Rubel made his way to that town solely for the purpose of having Raki carted north - and yet, since it's evident that Rubel did have Raki carted north, we know he must have been in that town at that time. The pertinent question here is, wherefore art thou, Rubel? What other twisted webs doth our spider spin?

[chibamonster]

@Aimless: Is suppression a skill that can be learned? I think it absolutely is a technique that Claymore's can use, some being better at it than others. Raphaela not only had a complete youki cloak from years of fighting without releasing youki, but she also was trained in the soul link where her role was to actively suppress her youki completely preserving her sisters heart while Luciella awakened. Beth has this job now and Rubel tells us that suppressing in the soul link is the harder job.

So suppression itself is a definite skill, and like most skills in claymore manifests itself differently from character to character like how Renee, Teresa, Galatea and Tabitha all read youki but specialize in different aspects and have different levels of ability. Riful certainly can hide or disguise her youki and is incredibly good at hiding her youki even when she is in full awakened form. She uses herself as a test of a Claymore's youki sensing; if they can read her then they are very good. Even Galatea praised her ability.

Priscilla as a young Claymore never used her youki, much like Teresa did not use her youki to fight. Though unlike Teresa Priscilla did not know her limits which turned into a problem later since we know youki release makes your blood boil as Helen and Deneve said when they released after years of suppression. As Priscilla had a complete cloak that deceived even Teresa I am guessing she had never used youki but I am not quite sure. Priscilla even as an AB is a natural suppressor of her power. Rigardo thought he could take her. Isley thought he could take her. But both of them were wrong. Riful, on the other hand, took one look at Priscilla and walked away. She could sense what Isley and Rigardo missed. Priscilla is still doing it to even eyes of the organization like Renee who couldn't sense Priscilla until Priscilla grabbed her attention (and arm). Renee seemed to run into a simmilar issue with Raphaela and Luciella who seem to be completely sealed off but still have their youki furnace burning.

The only way so far to completely seal ones youki off is to not use it for a long period of time. Even Galatea cannot sense that. Youki pills work on even most good youki sensors. Characters good at suppression can fool many or at least disguise their power to some degree. There appear to be varying degrees of youki suppression ability. Claymores, even with similar techniques, are quite unique. Flora used youki in her windcutter spar with Clare. Helen can extend her arm AND drill it. Well Teresa and Clare's youki sensing is exactly the same but...

So there really seems to be a lot to youki suppression. Not that it matters if Deitrich, Miata or the Abyssal Feeders are on the hunt. They can track without youki. When Miata was introduced I was positive she was the ultimate ghost hunter since youki cloaks mean nothing to her at all and has no effect on her abilities. She may still fill that role some day.

...did not mean to type so much...

EDIT: Suppression is also a vital part of the quicksword technique. Awaken one arm and suppress the youki in the rest of the body like crazy. It takes the will of a monster. Clare enhanced the technique later and the training inevitably led to Clare partially awakening her limbs while controlling them from the youki control lessons she learned form Jean. So Release and Suppression can be vital skills for techniques as well.

[Tale]

Sure, Rubel knew Raki, but he should have had no reason to suspect that Raki might be wandering around the town at the base of Mt. Zakol on his own. It's implausible that Rubel made his way to that town solely for the purpose of having Raki carted north - and yet, since it's evident that Rubel did have Raki carted north, we know he must have been in that town at that time. The pertinent question here is, wherefore art thou, Rubel? What other twisted webs doth our spider spin?
Rubel is probably one of the biggest players in this work but we don't know his true purpose while we have to rely on his "information" to get bigger picture. Raki is definitely no brainier for Rubel to take control on Clare. However, was it Rubel who sent Jean to Riful? How much did he expect beforehand? Did he even know Jean, Clare and Galatea would cooperate to defeat Dauf and that Riful would spare their lives? I think this is bit far-fetched. However, I agree that Rubel is an interesting character and that it is probably not a coincidence that he was there with Rafaela. At least, according to his own words, he hasn't been working for the org but pretending to have been being so. I think there are quite much room left for speculation. I can only say, good job, Yagi and I'd be pleasantly surprised if he manages to give satisfactory story development in this area.

As for youki suppression, I think it can be a borne ability like with Priscilla but it doesn't rule out that the ability can be consciously trained. In any case, all of these are just a poor attempt to get better explanation and mere speculations. That said, I strongly agree with Aimless that the below is important output of this argument.Basically, what I want to know is if it will still take years for Deneve and Helen to suppress their youki a second time. This has plot implications either way; if its faster the second time around, then it's possible that the Ghost's cover is not completely blown - the two could resuppress in time for the ultimate engagement with the Org. If it's not, then that means the Ghosts might as well drop their suppression entirely, since Deneve and Helen will stand out like beacons to their enemies (although, tactically, this might be useful in and of itself).

[chibamonster]

@Tale: Rubel did later succeed in getting Galatea to leave the organization. He was not the one who ordered her to follow Clare but he has a very funny response when Galatea is put on the job. It happens in Witches Maw 1 (41 page 6). Rubel sees Galatea being sent as a "stalemate" for some reason.

This is interesting to me because we know Raphaela was in the area where Irene and Clare were and Raph answered to Rubel. Interesting because Raph goes after Irene but as Clare fights Ophelia she does nothing. Clare later gets on pills and runs away, but for a Claymore who has the power of a #1 Raphaela definitely could have gotten there in time. What was she waiting for? Was she waiting for Awakened Ophelia to kill Clare like Rubel had hoped would happen from Claymore Ophelia?

Rubel definitely had something going on at the beginning of the Witches Maw. Galatea being sent got in his way some how. As the person who knew Clare the best and can still push her buttons, he may have masterminded quite a bit of Clare's misery.

Edit: I probably need to check the raws on rubel's response to see what he really said when Galatea was sent...
Edit2: Checked the raw. The word Rubel uses is Zettai Zetsumei
zettai 絶対 【ぜったい】 (adv) (1) (See 絶対に) absolutely; unconditionally; (adj-no) (2) absolute; unconditional; unmistakable
zetsumei 絶命 【ぜつめい】 (n,vs) end of life; death

Hmmm. If I take the literal translation then Rubel says this is absolute death. I wonder if I am missing something...

[Throne Invader]

Haha, well I'm still saying its a special skill. Claymores can remain undetectable if they suppress their yoki as hard as they can for a long time. But for some claymores, its a special skill. Take Priscilla for example, it's really not in her personality to suppress yoki but she has that special ability. Ilena said Priscilla can suppress her yoki to the fullest extent, but she didn't say Priscilla's yoki has stayed suppressed for a long time. Meaning the skill is at Priscilla's full control. She can release some yoki but still be able to hide it all again. Rubel also said that Rafaela was skilled in suppressing her yoki so I'm thinking all over again that its a skill for Rafaela too.

Having yoki suppressed for a long time to remain undetectable is different from Rubel and Ilena's words. In relation to Ilena once you release even a bit of yoki, you will then become a signal on the radar. Thus, Priscilla and Rafaela have full control on suppressing their yoki.

[chibamonster]

Hmmm. I am going to have to disagree AmoreDoll, at least a little bit on Raphaela and Priscilla :D. Even as a skilled and trained soul link youki suppressor we watched trainee Teresa walk right up and talk to Raphaela knowing full well she was a Claymore. Teresa said her youki aura was about to dissappear completely. So even for someone whose special and trained skill is suppression, time is still necessary to erase everything from a good youki sensor's radar.

As for Priscilla releasing her youki and controlling it, I am a little skeptical. She had no idea how to manage her youki release at all and did not know any of her limits. Can one learn to suppress youki if you do not know anything about it? Teresa explained the steps of youki release to Prissy because she was not getting what dangerous ground she was walking on. And she awakened so quickly that we really did not see her do much at all as a Claymore. Since Teresa could not sense her she must have been very very cloaked. As in more cloaked than Raphaela was years after she failed the soul link. I lean towards Priscilla having never released her youki (since she hated youma) but you are right, that part is not confirmed. If we judge by the rest of the stories take on youki cloaking then Priscilla must never have used it, but she could just be very special.

As an AB Priscilla still has a youki aura. She just disguises how powerful she is like Riful does only it seems Prissy does it all the time and involuntarily. Even in the most recent appearance where Prissy met Renee Prissy still had a youki signature. When Renee knew where to look she saw just how deep the youki pool was. We have not met an AB yet who has COMPLETELY suppressed their youki. As for Priscilla as a Claymore I am not sure.

[Throne Invader]

In that case, taken from what you said I think Rafaela learned and mastered the yoki cloaking skill thus it developed into special skill for her. But we're not yet free to presume that Raphaela has not fought with her yoki ever released, so she has that skill. Same thing with Priscilla. Its just not in her personality at all to train with yoki suppressed. She was fueled by hatred. At the beginning of the battle Priscilla was able to change the color of her eyes at ease meaning she has done that before but probably only up to that extent. That's why she probably lost control when she reached the higher levels as you said chibamonster because of her inexperience at battling with tremendous yoki released.

All in all, the manga does not provide enough evidence to whether it is a special skill or something that requires time. Rafaela could have just been training that skill.

[PureYoki]

I'll just make a quick summary of our discussion and point out why I don't agree with some of the arguments for people who don't want to read all these pages. :)

Argument 1: Clare actually saved Yuma's life by eliminating her instead of making her fight Riful.

I don't agree. Going into Riful's lair is not a MUST. Clare could simply choose not to go to Riful and talk to Rafaela. She endangered Yuma's life to satisy her personal curiosity.

Argument 2: Clare planned to drag them into fight but didn't plan the details.

I don't agree. You can't drag your comrades into a fight and expect the best. There was a very high possibility that either they could have released yoki or one of them could have died. Clare did simply ignore these possibilities, the convenient result of the fight doesn't justify the means.

Argument 3: Clare was totally in control and could save Yuma's life comfortably.

I don't agree. Things happen spontaneously in a fight, Clare can't kill Dauf in a second, Clare is reluctant to kill Dauf and Clare is reluctant to release yoki. Actually it was Cynthia who saved Yuma from Dauf's grasp, not Clare.

Argument 4: Cynthia follows Clare into Riful's lair no matter what.

I don't agree. Clare could have talked Cynthia into letting her go alone. Yuma wouldn't get hurt, Cynthia could acknowledge Clare alone would have a much better chance of sneaking in and as we all know Cynthia already lets Clare go, she's not strictly following Miria's orders despite knowing that Yuma can heal herself.

[Tale]

@Tale: Rubel did later succeed in getting Galatea to leave the organization. He was not the one who ordered her to follow Clare but he has a very funny response when Galatea is put on the job. It happens in Witches Maw 1 (41 page 6). Rubel sees Galatea being sent as a "stalemate" for some reason.

This is interesting to me because we know Raphaela was in the area where Irene and Clare were and Raph answered to Rubel. Interesting because Raph goes after Irene but as Clare fights Ophelia she does nothing. Clare later gets on pills and runs away, but for a Claymore who has the power of a #1 Raphaela definitely could have gotten there in time. What was she waiting for? Was she waiting for Awakened Ophelia to kill Clare like Rubel had hoped would happen from Claymore Ophelia?

Rubel definitely had something going on at the beginning of the Witches Maw. Galatea being sent got in his way some how. As the person who knew Clare the best and can still push her buttons, he may have masterminded quite a bit of Clare's misery.

Edit: I probably need to check the raws on rubel's response to see what he really said when Galatea was sent...
Edit2: Checked the raw. The word Rubel uses is Zettai Zetsumei
zettai 絶対 【ぜったい】 (adv) (1) (See 絶対に) absolutely; unconditionally; (adj-no) (2) absolute; unconditional; unmistakable
zetsumei 絶命 【ぜつめい】 (n,vs) end of life; death

Hmmm. If I take the literal translation then Rubel says this is absolute death. I wonder if I am missing something...
Your curiosity drove me into another translation task. :D

*Rubel saw an order to "recover #47" was given to Elmita, who is assigned to Galatea.*
The below is exact words of Rubel in Japanese.
さて、絶体絶命だな・・・一体あいつはどうする気なのか・・・
My not-so-good translation as usual: Now, she is in a serious trouble...I wonder what she should be going to do...

I don't know why the translator translated 絶体絶命 to stalemate. Direct translation of 絶体絶命would be an absolute end of life. So, the meaning of whole the sentence would be "Now she is in danger of an absolute end of her life." So, simply put, Now she is in a big/serious trouble. This is not so complicated as it may appear since 絶体絶命 is rather common a word composed of four kanjis (四字熟語) in Japanese.

After all, Rubel may have simply let Raphaela follow Galatea in order to see how things would turn out. In any case, Rubel is quite manipulative in sending Clare to various dangerous missions and we don't know his true motive while Clare seems to simply think he has been trying to drive her, half-awakened into death. It is interesting to see,　despite of her feeling to Rubel, she is still going to see Raphaela as Rubel suggested in the latest episode.

[night_sentinel]

Hello everyone, I just recently stumbled across this thread and got sucked in. I hope to learn from all of you. :)

On the topic of discussion, I think youki suppression can be done by any Claymore. But, for someone to completely disappear from the radar or sensors like Galatea, it would take a couple of years at the very least.

I believe that when someone uses youki, it leaves some sort of mark on the user that can only be cured by time. To use an analogy, its like the Claymores are pipes and youki is the smelly water that flows through them, when they use it for the first time, the pipes become smelly and thus can be smelled by sensors even when they are not using youki.

This is also the reason why good sensors like Galetea and Teresa can sense someone who is suppressing their youki. Dietrich using youki pills to suppress the effect of youki on her body still has a faint "smell" and Raphaela who is perhaps consciously suppressing youki from months from the debacle of the soul-link still has not erased the "smell" of youki enough and still leaves faint traces.

[Ryus]

Welcome night_sentinel, I got sucked in 7 days ago myself. (has it only been 7 days? I guess it has... and this is my 60th post...)

Just had a thought about Priscilla. When Raki asked Priscilla to identify the Yoma it took Priscilla a moment to figure it out, then after that moment she figures it out and points. This leads me to question as to whether it is because she is starving, whether she was just stopped thinking for herself and hadn't bothered to look for the yoma until now, or if it is because of 7 years of not using any powers, even using her sensing ability, until Raki asks her too.

So in short how does this effect our previous talk of power suppression. I'm personally distracted right now, getting ready to run out the door to my RL, so I haven't put too much thought into myself but I wanted to post my thought before I run out the door and forget it.

[Sleepy Speculator]

As flawed as you make the arguments sound pureyoki, i can't help but feel that if i were to respond in the same manner i'd have to say and you're argument was...

Argument 1. That not only was Clare blind but Cynthia was too, and despite being a certified claymore, capable but not very good at sensing, Yuma, Clare and Cynthia all managed to accidently run into a very powerful awakened being as a means of poorly thought of plot device.

But i can see what you're getting at. But if i may retort.

Argument 4: Cynthia follows Clare into Riful's lair no matter what.

The claymores 'were' soldiers there's a thing called chain of command, and for the most part the ghosts still follow it. Cynthia #14 was certainly serious about sticking to Clare (who was #47) because of the orders of Miria #6.

And yes i know you'd say ah but they already broke Miria's orders to not engage Ab's etc, or Helen and Deneve also broke orders... But to put that in perspective Helen and Deneve were arguably put on not one but two suicide missions whilst they were still soldiers because of their insubordinate nature.

Also Clare is mis-ranked having proved sometime back that she's actually on par with her then captain #8, with the respect of the #9 and secretly having killed the org's #4. Also having arguably won a duel with Miria (or at least forcing her to concede as a draw) should be ranked above #6 by the old conventional ranking system. And that's only with respect to her compared to other claymores, not as an Ab hunter.

So Cynthia is v.simply stuck between two competing sets of orders. Miria's or Clare's. Miria has delibaretely paired not only the dangerously competent Cynthia but the most incompetent Yuma with Clare, the first as a means of binding escape and the second as an anchor, in order to try to prevent Clare getting involved in the usual craziness that springs up around her. And to keep her alive for the planned revenge that she wishes to enact on the org. (N.B. not Clare's revenge, Miria's she has a plan and she wants to use Clare for it.)

Cynthia isn't dumb she knows that the loss of Clare invalidates Miria's best plan for revenge and by association their promise to avenge those that died in Pieta. The groups entire reliable battle potential revolves around Miria and Clare. If Clare is allowed to act on her own it may be the last time they see her, either because she'd likely -
a) dissapear entirely, (she was trained in covert ops)
b) get herself killed in combat
c) fall to awakening
d) find Raki
e) pick a fight herself with the org.

So Cynthia for various reasons is going to follow that particular order of Miria's to the letter. Unless it's suicidally dangerous, which is what Miria thought to get Clare to avoid by shackling her in the first place.

Argument 1: Clare actually saved Yuma's life by eliminating her instead of making her fight Riful.

Argument 2: Clare planned to drag them into fight but didn't plan the details.

Argument 3: Clare was totally in control and could save Yuma's life comfortably.

I really don't know how to respond to all this, as malak, and awakened had their own perspectives. But i can say though it appeared 'accidental' it's hard to rule out what Clare does plan on the fly. eg.

Her plan to get a yoma on two early occasions had been to let it run her through so she can stop it's movement/ability to evade. She nearly solo'd the first AB she met in her career despite the power differences based on having a counter to each of it's attack patterns.

She learnt to control quicksword by using it in conjunction with yoki sensing in the middle of a battle with Duff, and only minutes after having rescued Jean who inspired her.

And whilst i think Clare intended to stalk Duff one way or the other i don't think Cynthia knew who or what the AB they were attempting to trail/peek at/see/fight was.

So Yuma's real misfortune is that she's unwittingly led by Clare and Cynthia into the very situation she wishes to avoid. (Note both Clare and Cynthia are higher ranking warriors with what i'd assume to be assassin style and tracking skills respectively, and both are highly competent yoki sensors). This would also be an example of how Clare would behave on her own, the fact that the other two are there is *because* or Miria's orders not her own.

Okay now comes the difficult part. :eyespin: (this isn't my opinion btw just things that we could be misinterpreting)

In the fight is appears as if Cynthia blocks the rod shooting attack by Duff by smacking him on the top of the head and the pain causes Duff to open his hand enough for Yuma to nearly escape. Clare then resorts to ruthlessly cutting off Yuma's leg to get her free.

All well and good, but add in some previous knowledge about Clare and it starts getting complicated. Remember what i said about having counters prepared? She fights Duff with the same counters and knowledge from the first fight, except this time she's alot faster. Not a single one of Duff's attacks come anywhere near hitting Clare. And although it's not mentioned, Clare obviously still has her passive aura perception. Now the last time Clare fought with Duff it was noted that if he's attacked by more than one person he can't defend against yoki manipulation, so how are we to know that yoki manipulation wasn't used? Clare after all is prone to copying techniques, and Cynthia already knows how to use the same technique for healing purposes.

Basically depending on how the next few chapters pan out we may discover that Yuma's little accident wasn't so accidental.

p.s. Clare went for Duff's eyes, now that's dirty fighting...:D

welcome night-sentinel and i wish you the best of luck... escape whilst you can!

[Arkham]

Welcome night_sentinel, I got sucked in 7 days ago myself. (has it only been 7 days? I guess it has... and this is my 60th post...)

Just had a thought about Priscilla. When Raki asked Priscilla to identify the Yoma it took Priscilla a moment to figure it out, then after that moment she figures it out and points. This leads me to question as to whether it is because she is starving, whether she was just stopped thinking for herself and hadn't bothered to look for the yoma until now, or if it is because of 7 years of not using any powers, even using her sensing ability, until Raki asks her too.

So in short how does this effect our previous talk of power suppression. I'm personally distracted right now, getting ready to run out the door to my RL, so I haven't put too much thought into myself but I wanted to post my thought before I run out the door and forget it.

I think that in those 7 years Pris. used her sensing ability many times because
Raki seems to be an experienced yoma slayer and the only way he could detect yoma was through Pris.

Interesting that Renee (the new eye) couldn't sence Pris. who was standing right next to her.

[Throne Invader]

I seem to have figured something out. Something that could serve as proof that yoki suppression is actually a special skill for Priscilla. Is it not that awakened beings can no longer hide their yoki? They fight with their yoki fully released. If its not a special skill for Priscilla, why couldn't she be detected by Renee until Renee got really near her?

[night_sentinel]

Regarding another of the topic that has been highly debated on, I'm a bit uneasy on the concept that Claire lead her team to Dauf so she can lose them and thus be free to pursue her goals. If there was one thing that I like about Claire, she is relentless in pursuing her goals but at the same time she arguably doesn't lose herself on it.

A brilliant example of this would be her search for Raki which she delayed time and time again to help others - Jean, Pieta and now Raphaela or Reenie possibly both. So it is a bit hard to swallow that Claire premeditated that situation wherein at least one of the three preferably Yuma will get injured so Cynthia can heal. If this is true Claire may be a bit cold blooded than I thought or perhaps much more soft hearted and cunning to the extreme.

But, at the same time, it is also hard to imagine that a team which Claire is leading managed to get caught by Dauf - one of the slowest AB in existence or at least from the ones we have seen and certainly not the most intelligent. Plus Claire most assuredly know Dauf's signature from back then when they fought in Witches Maw.

Evidence of this :
When Riful's youki is felt everyone is panicking wondering what they are feeling but Claire is ridiculously calm stating that it is the abyssal one - Riful of the West.
So if Claire can identify Riful's youki which Riful is cloaking at that time and perhaps even now, she can of course identify Dauf's Youki.

So barring plot device to let Claire face the ticking bomb of a situation herself, the situation is a bit impossible to fathom... But, yagi-sensei will probably explain it all in the next chapter so let's go on the assumption that is no plot hole and the characters actually have good reasons to be there.

The members of the three man team

Yuma - probably the easiest one to explain. Yuma is someone who have a low self esteem and the most obedient of the ghost. Yuma is the only one who makes a huge fuss regarding Miria's order, the other two doesn't seem to care as long it helps someone. Since Yuma is not a good sensor and will probably just follow the other two if they decide to go after an AO, perhaps voicing a small disagreement, but ultimately going along. Wait this already happened :)

Cynthia - a good sensor and seems to be a good samaritan before being a good soldier. She was okay with Claire going against Miria's order to help the townspeople. But, actually Cynthia doesn't complicate the situation since she doesn't know Dauf's signature and will have no way of knowing Dauf is Riful's henchman/ partner.
Regarding Miria's order, Cynthia I think will be okay in fighting awakened ones even if it explicitly against the order if she thinks that they do it, but, she will not allow Claire to shake them off. Since she is primarily goodhearted, it is for what she believes Claire's safety so she can't run wild and lastly that is their purpose for this trip.

Claire - Claire knows Dauf's signature thus homing on his youki signature can only be done with full consciousness and can not be an accident. She also believes that Rubel is setting her up and Riful can not be beaten by her. So no reason for Claire to go into certain death and endanger her comrades ...

wait ... I take back everything that I've said regarding for Claire homing on Dauf's signature as illogical - it is exactly something she would do. Not that I'm saying that Claire is illogical, I'm just saying that it makes perfect sense following the progression of her character.

Evidence : Claire still wants to be the one who defeats Priscilla even when it is nigh impossible. Still follows Rubul's advices even though she is suspicious of him perhaps from the beginning. (Though, even if his advice is near suicidal it is helpful to her goal. )

So, in short, it is plausible with Rubel's information, Claire's knowledge of Dauf's youki and the fact that the group is clearly in exterminate AO mode. They will be put in that situation.

But, I do not think that Claire purposely want Yuma to be injured in the confrontation with Dauf. I think Claire is actually truthful in that one, it is a split second decision, but, I believe with a lot of thought put into it.

From witches maw, it is said that it is harder to heal crushed bones than ones that are simply cut. Perhaps Claire remembered that one and thought it is for the best. And since Yuma is currently in Dauf's hand at that time to minimize the damage already taken and the added shock effect to allow their escape, she cut Yuma's leg. This had the added side effect of allowing Claire to break free from her minders which is a bonus.

So from a tactical point of view, it allowed Claire to accomplish the objective of safeguarding her friends without blowing their cover and the bonus objective allowing her free movements to pursue rescue operations or perhaps information gathering without endangering her allies. It is the best move possible in that situation which neatly takes care of her objectives and as a friend and comrade.

And regarding this statement "I am not as softhearted as a person that I would risk my life for a warrior I do not know." is clearly a lie to placate Cynthia in staying with Yuma. Besides Claire you already did "the risk my life for a warrior that I do not know." Jean, anyone?

The truth is perhaps something Claire said " Sorry, even if I am hiding my real self I am not mature enough, to just stand here and get my comrades killed."


End rant. Thanks for the welcome guys and please comment.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

@Pureyoki:

Welcome back. :D You do make some good points. I am taking the wait and see approach here. It is true that the best chance of saving four out of four people was to cut off Yuma's leg. I don't know if it was premeditated from the beginning, or if Clare took advantage of a situation, and then it could've been coincidental. Your point about there being too many variables to disaster if it was premeditated is good. Right now, I am leaning on taking advantage of a situation. But I think, that if Cynthia and Yoma were to enter Riful's lair that at least one of them would die in the up coming arc. Helen and Deneve are much better partners for Clare and I think she would be more excepting of them in this situation.

The real problem here is Cynthia, and I don't think you understand her character well enough, if you think that she would listen to Clare about not following her. The problem is that Miria inherited an army of troublesome individual. Some of them are troublesome to where you can see it: Clare and Helen. Some of them don't seem troublesome but are: Deneve and Cynthia. In many ways, Cynthia is just like Clare: if there is a person to be saved, she is willing to disregard her orders, so she can save that person. That does not mean that a Miria fangirl wants to disregard Miria's orders, so she will disregard only as much as she has to, to satisfy her own sense of morality. Part of her orders were to stick and watch Clare; those she is going to follow. But she wants Renee and Rafaela saved as much as Clare does, so she will follow to help.

Poor Yuma on the other hand realized a few chapters back that she is following two crazy people. She desperately doesn't want to go, and objects to it, pointing out that the idea of going to an Abyssal One is just insane. But then she doesn't want to be left by herself, and she has a sense of duty to be with her comrads, so she will go reluctantly. She would however stay, if Cynthia would stay too, if Clare asked. The problem is Cynthia, for she will go if Clare goes, unless she is given the responsibility such as healing an injured comrade.

AmoreDoll: Yoki suppression is Priscilla's special ability. She freely uses yoki without thinking about it quite too easily for it not to be. It was the perfect ability to defeat Terea's ability of reading yoki. The problem is that Priscilla had the same problem that Clare had in the Slasher's arc. That is, when she really goes into the offensive, then Teresa can start reading her yoki again. In the Priscilla vs. Teresa fight, Priscilla starts out with the advantage, and Teresa is surprised quite a few times. Then Priscilla does the mistake by kicking it up a notch a few times, but everytime she does that, the advantage goes to Teresa who can start reading her moves again. That is until Priscilla uses so much yoki that it is blinding to the yoki senses, and Teresa can't read the fine details, but still has the skill and experience to out match Priscilla.

[Throne Invader]

From witches maw, it is said that it is harder to heal crushed bones than ones that are simply cut. Perhaps Claire remembered that one and thought it is for the best. And since Yuma is currently in Dauf's hand at that time to minimize the damage already taken and the added shock effect to allow their escape, she cut Yuma's leg. This had the added side effect of allowing Claire to break free from her minders which is a bonus.

Yep. This makes sense. Clare had been in the same situation as Yuma's thus she knew what would be best to do. Yuma also mentioned her shank was already crushed so in my opinon, it was the best thing to do.

But I seriously don't think Clare planned anything. It just so happened they met Duff in the woods. Duff caught Yuma, crushed her leg, Clare cut it off, and the 3 escaped from Duff. Cynthia who so happens to be good in aiding injuries had to stay to help Yuma.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Good Analysis and welcomed on board night_sentinel. :D I am currently leaning towards the Clare took advantage of the situation POV, but this is a wait and see sort of thing, since the others two paths are quite possible too and make equally as much sense if true. I agree with Pureyoki that there are just too many variables involved to insure that Clare could always save Yuma no matter what. I remember how Duff lifted clare up by holding her head between his fingers. What would Clare do if he had done that to Yuma? Cut off her head? :heh:

There a few things I like to point out:


Evidence of this :
When Riful's youki is felt everyone is panicking wondering what they are feeling but Claire is ridiculously calm stating that it is the abyssal one - Riful of the West.
So if Claire can identify Riful's youki which Riful is cloaking at that time and perhaps even now, she can of course identify Dauf's Youki.

Galatea taught Clare the trick for seeing through Riful's cloak way back in the Witch's Maw. Riful probably has as much chance of hiding herself from Clare now as she had from Galatea then.


Evidence : Claire still wants to be the one who defeats Priscilla even when it is nigh impossible. Still follows Rubul's advices even though she is suspicious of him perhaps from the beginning. (Though, even if his advice is near suicidal it is helpful to her goal. )

Rubel just knows how to push Clare's buttons. He knows that if there is a warrior in need, Clare will go to save her. There is also some mysterious reason that Clare doesn't understand herself that makes her want to talk to Rafaela. Who knows what this is, but Rafaela does have some link to Teresa. I posed the question on here first: Is it the Teresa in Clare that makes Clare want to talk to Rafaela?

From witches maw, it is said that it is harder to heal crushed bones than ones that are simply cut. Perhaps Claire remembered that one and thought it is for the best. And since Yuma is currently in Dauf's hand at that time to minimize the damage already taken and the added shock effect to allow their escape, she cut Yuma's leg. This had the added side effect of allowing Claire to break free from her minders which is a bonus.

good reasoning.

And regarding this statement "I am not as softhearted as a person that I would risk my life for a warrior I do not know." is clearly a lie to placate Cynthia in staying with Yuma. Besides Claire you already did "the risk my life for a warrior that I do not know." Jean, anyone?

The truth is perhaps something Claire said " Sorry, even if I am hiding my real self I am not mature enough, to just stand here and get my comrades killed."


End rant. Thanks for the welcome guys and please comment.

Regarding that statement. Well to put it simply Clare lies a lot about her true feelings. I'm not interested enough to hunt down all the quotes, but it happens throughout the manga. She especially lied to Raki a lot early on in the manga saying stuff like, I paraphrase, "don't get the wrong Idea, I didn't do this for you..." Or she lies to Miria why she came to that yoma infested town early, and doesn't give her true reason being that she couldn't just sit around and wait however long it was, while people died. To put it simply: Clare has no problems with telling lies.

[Taylor_Maclaurin]

I agree with Pureyoki that there are just too many variables involved to insure that Clare could always save Yuma no matter what. (...)
I've been following discussion PureYoki vs. rest of the world for quite some time but I don't remember that PureYoki mentioned my argument that Clare couldn't be sure whether Dauf would grab Yuma conveniently. (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=2325485#post2325485)

What would Clare do if he had done that to Yuma? Cut off her head? :heh:
You do like to plagiarize, don't you? (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=2325485#post2325485) It's at least third time you used others' arguments or comments without "quote" tags. And I can't believe you didn't see my comment because you're spammer number 1 o this forum and you reply to almost every post (double- or triple-posting by the way). Maybe that's one of the reasons why chibamonster loses his nerves when replying to your posts.

[Sleepy Speculator]

There's an interesting thing about Clare telling fibs, though. And that is, she does it to maintain that cool and emotionless facade. I don't know if it's because of Teresa, being raised by her, being part of her, Rubul's training or the fact that Clare emulates some sort of warrior ethic, but she clearly puts on an emotionless face.

I mean it's obvious to those that figure it out, that she's not as cold as others who adopted this sort of thing later on, but has always rather dangerously been like it. And i say dangerously because being a different type of hybrid, i think her emotions tap into her yoki pool in a different way giving her more or less control depending on the situation.

Offensive warriors should be all pretty emotional and aggressive, and Helen typifies it, yet we see the majority of confirmed offensive types seem to have some sort of control thing going on, Jean, Flora, Ilena, Miria, Rapheala all offensive claymores and all pretty cool to those they interact with. However i think Clare differs in that she merely looks like she has control. Ilena spotted it, Helen/Deneve mention she has limitless drive/spite whatever, and Cynthia i think figures it out after the group have just finished chopping the flying Ab to pieces.

I think most of the people around Clare would be shocked to know why she's really like it, and i don't see her being able to maintain her secrets much longer.

[Ryuken]

Man! This is second time that I missed the release. Because of me one week trip. But thanks to you guys I have just read the issue. And I need to catch my breath after that. Just awesome.:)

[Gangsta Spanksta]

I've been following discussion PureYoki vs. rest of the world for quite some time but I don't remember that PureYoki mentioned my argument that Clare couldn't be sure whether Dauf would grab Yuma conveniently. (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=2325485#post2325485)


You do like to plagiarize, don't you? (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=2325485#post2325485) It's at least third time you used others' arguments or comments without "quote" tags. And I can't believe you didn't see my comment because you're spammer number 1 o this forum and you reply to almost every post (double- or triple-posting by the way). Maybe that's one of the reasons why chibamonster loses his nerves when replying to your posts.

I'm probably did see your post awhile back, but honestly I wasn't trying to plagiarize. As for other arguments and comments, I may have the similar feelings and opinions as someone else. There also is a bit of building on others idea on this thread that goes on here. And there is two people coming up with the same idea independently . Like for instance, early on in the thread, just after the english translation came out, I brainstormed some random thoughts that included the question of if it was the teresa in clare that makes her want to see Rafaela. I think it was MisterJB shortly afterwards wondered the same thing a few pages afterwards. Honestly, you are taking it for more than it is. As for Chiba, I like to note that there is a bit of history involved there, so you should take that to note, and watch both sides cautiously.

Edit: A lot of the double posting also happens, when someone posted something while I was replying. Like Sleepy just wrote a message that I really want to reply to. :P

[Ryuken]

That feeling that Clare is having is indeed very interesting. I mean she doesn't know where it's coming form but she knows that she have to.:)

[PureYoki]

@Pureyoki:

Welcome back. :D

Thanks, but unfortunately I'm in the middle of a project which is due next Monday, so I don't have much time to read and post. (I'd like to post my two cents about yoki suppression.) Another problem is that I can't explain to my girlfriend why I spend so much time on a forum about comics. :D

You do make some good points. I am taking the wait and see approach here.

Perhaps you're right, Yagi-sensei may prove me wrong about Clare in the next chapter but IMO all manga authors sometimes (although Yagi much less) use a bit overstretched plot devices to get the story going. Yagi spent 9 pages in Chapter 83 to show us the events that happened before Clare's group went to the town but in this chapter we suddenly found ourselves in a very awkward position.

If Yagi-sensei meant to show us Clare has premeditated the Dauf confrontation to get Yuma out of the equation, he would give us more clues that support this theory but it seems he wants us to skip how they ran into Dauf and focus on the events that follows. If Clare has really planned it, this is a huge deal and Yagi couldn't simply skip such an important twist about her character.

The real problem here is Cynthia, and I don't think you understand her character well enough, if you think that she would listen to Clare about not following her.

I think it's not absolutely necessary for Cynthia to heal Yuma, she can leave her alone and go with Clare but she chose to stay with her and given her care about Yuma's well-being, I deduced that she wouldn't follow Clare then because it was a dangerous mission for both herself and especially Yuma and Clare alone has much better chances in sneaking in and accomplishing her goal. Yuma would rather be a liability than help.

In the worst case, if she wants to go anyway, Cynthia could tell Yuma to wait for them for it's too dangerous, and Clare and Cynthia could go together. There are lots of better solutions than having poor Yuma thrown before hungry lions, this is my take on the matter.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

@sleepy:

I don't think it is because of being raised by Teresa. By the time that Teresa accepted Clare, she dropped the cold attitude that she showed Clare. Besides, Teresa was different from Clare, and liked to kid around a bit. She was also a pretty honest person, and never lied to Clare unlike Clare did to Raki. I speculate that Clare probably has had to adopt her current persona to be able to get any kind of respect from those around her, because she was a 47 and weak. Otherwise, she would be more likely to get pushed around like that trainee did.

However i think Clare differs in that she merely looks like she has control. Ilena spotted it, Helen/Deneve mention she has limitless drive/spite whatever, and Cynthia i think figures it out after the group have just finished chopping the flying Ab to pieces.

I think most of the people around Clare would be shocked to know why she's really like it, and i don't see her being able to maintain her secrets much longer.

Also Galatea spotted it. Clare is Ice cold on the surface, but is aflame with emotion on the inside. It could be that Clare's emotions got in the way of her fighting and what she did. So Clare had to build emotional control and put up that cold persona to be able to handle them. Also, she was trained by Rubel to be a covert operative. So that is where she learned to casually lie to people. Rubel trained Clare to be a natural liar. :P :D and hide her feelings so she wouldn't give herself away in a covert operation.

PureYoki:

But Cynthia said that Yuma isn't good at regeneration, despite being a defensive type, and that she was basically doing all the work herself. So Yuma does need Cynthia's help, and lets not forget that Yuma is in a lot of illustrated pain. The only reason Cynthia is staying is because of Yuma. And Yuma is not the only problem that Clare has: she doesn't want to get Cynthia hurt either. It's a bit of hypocrisy there from Clare, since she would deny Cynthia something she won't be denied herself. Also, if it was Helen and Deneve following her, she would have no problems with them willing to sacrifice their own lives in this cause. Also, when Clare fight seriously, she can be a danger to her allies too. She still remembers how Jean dies, even if Jean probably still would've died from that hole in her stomach anyway.

[Simley]

doesn't seem like it would be Claire's fault Yuma can't even control her breathing...Duff had no idea if what he sensed was around at all, but he could hear Yuma breathing since she was panting pretty hard.

I can, however, concede to the idea that she took advantage of the situation, you know...making lemonade out of lemons, considering Yuma was going to be a hindrance against Riful, so she essentially saved Yuma from having to confront Riful with her.

[Ryuken]

To meet Rafa? Hmmm!:eyebrow: I think that definitely has something to do with Teresa. The Teresa which is inside her.:)

[hell88]

To meet Rafa? Hmmm!:eyebrow: I think that definitely has something to do with Teresa. The Teresa which is inside her.:)

I think it also has to do with the Irene that is inside her too.;)

[Anima]

I think it has to do with what Rubel said too :p

[Ryuken]

Those are all possibilities @hell and also @Anima. What I was thinking about was the flashbacks of Teresa which Clare has from time to time.:)

[PureYoki]

@ Gangsta Spanksta:

Since we're analyzing the logic behind Cynthia's decisions, it doesn't matter what Clare thinks about Cynthia. Let's see what Cynthia thinks:

Yuma regenerated her left arm in Pieta arc, if her skills didn't worsen in these seven years, she'll be fine. If following Clare has a high precedence, Cynthia should do it because leaving Yuma alone doesn't have unacceptable consequences compared to Clare's visit to Riful's lair.

But we know that Cynthia won't go with Clare, it means she doesn't even take the smallest risk of leaving Yuma behind. The obvious result of this decision is that Cynthia thinks Clare can take care of herself, because Cynthia knows that leaving Clare (their biggest weapon) alone against Riful is much more risky than leaving Yuma (the weakest link) while she regenerates in the forest.

Now that we know Cynthia thinks Clare can take care of herself, then let's analyze the three possible answers to Clare's request about going to Riful's lair:

1) They all go together but what's the point in taking Yuma with them? Both Cynthia and Clare would acknowledge this fact.

2) Yuma stays, Clare and Cynthia goes together. The argument about saving Yuma's life now fails. Clare may be somewhat worried about Cynthia but it's an acceptable risk, Cynthia is faster than Clare and she has more stamina, she says so.

3) Cynthia agrees Clare has better chances of sneaking in if she is alone and lets her go. The situation would be similar to current position with one exception: Meaningless confrontation against Dauf was avoided, Yuma is okay.

[chibamonster]

@Tale: isn't it amazing how bad many of the translations are? I am amazed just about every time I read the raw. Maybe I should just buckle down and read the raws from beginning to end...

The one absolute most difficult thing for translators from japanese to english seems to be the ambiguity that Japanese prizes and that English despises. We can't even make the ambiguous statements Japanese does. And Rubel's way of speaking Japanese so deceptively is incredible. He's so sarcastic.

@night_sentinel: Welcome to the forum. Nice posts to start off your debut :D.

I also do not think Clare led the team into a trap intentionally because she does not want her comrades getting hurt. Clare with Cynthia and Yuma is the first time Clare has actually led any team on her own into battle. The ghosts were following her from the time they came down from the North, but Miria would often call the shots. Miria made the call to rescue the Claymores fighting Riful. The ghosts followed Clare to Rabona where led the attack (something she is VERY good at) and finished off Agatha when Miria's strategy hit a wall (Galatea hostage? What to do!? I'm only the fastest Claymore alive... Miria has decision making issues, which is awesome for character development) but Clare was not calling all the shots. Miria coordinated and regrouped the team when Agatha switched to giant spaghetti monster.

Clare does not have the same goals as the other ghosts. She joined the organization willfully knowing full well that Claymores were killed when disobedient and that Claymores would become AB's if they were not careful. She may or may not have changed her mind when Miria told everyone her secret, but as she knows Rubel was Miria's informant (something even Miria would not share to her trusted comrades indicating loyalty to Rubel beyond the fact he was trying to kill her many times) she seems to have more information than anyone else in the series, Miria included.

I like that you picked up on Clare lying about being the kind of person who would save someone she does not even know. As for why Clare was so close to Duff I can only think that they were that close to Duff INTENTIONALLY. The thing that amazes me is how acute Duff's senses are. He heard Yuma breathing. There is no reason to stay away from an enemy if they cannot sense you, which Duff should not be able to. Like Deneve and Helen wanted to go see Isley and ended up being closer than they wanted to. The ghosts may give more credit to their cloak than they should. Helen and Deneve certainly did. Not to mention that Riful had met the ghosts before and knows they cannot be sensed. If Riful warned Duff about Clare (who he had met before) while they were cuddling then he might even know how to trap them. Clare is obviously planning to follow Duff to Riful, it just seems the first time they tried it Duff turned around and found them. I also think Yagi will explain this in the next few chapters :D.

Someone mentioned Duff was very slow. This is not the case :D. When he fought Clare the first time, he sat pretty much one place unable to stand and basically swatted at her. Even then he has his rods which fire like bullets from most surfaces on his body which is incredibly intimidating. He is not the fastest AB, but he is no weakling. He lost the fight to Galatea, Jean and Clare because he had rules placed on him. Well, he also was saved by Riful explaining Galatea's youki manipulation, but he is one tough cookie.

[Awakened]

Regarding another of the topic that has been highly debated on, I'm a bit uneasy on the concept that Claire lead her team to Dauf so she can lose them and thus be free to pursue her goals. If there was one thing that I like about Claire, she is relentless in pursuing her goals but at the same time she arguably doesn't lose herself on it.

A brilliant example of this would be her search for Raki which she delayed time and time again to help others - Jean, Pieta and now Raphaela or Reenie possibly both. So it is a bit hard to swallow that Claire premeditated that situation wherein at least one of the three preferably Yuma will get injured so Cynthia can heal. If this is true Claire may be a bit cold blooded than I thought or perhaps much more soft hearted and cunning to the extreme.

But, at the same time, it is also hard to imagine that a team which Claire is leading managed to get caught by Dauf - one of the slowest AB in existence or at least from the ones we have seen and certainly not the most intelligent. Plus Claire most assuredly know Dauf's signature from back then when they fought in Witches Maw.

Evidence of this :
When Riful's youki is felt everyone is panicking wondering what they are feeling but Claire is ridiculously calm stating that it is the abyssal one - Riful of the West.
So if Claire can identify Riful's youki which Riful is cloaking at that time and perhaps even now, she can of course identify Dauf's Youki.

So barring plot device to let Claire face the ticking bomb of a situation herself, the situation is a bit impossible to fathom... But, yagi-sensei will probably explain it all in the next chapter so let's go on the assumption that is no plot hole and the characters actually have good reasons to be there.

The members of the three man team

Yuma - probably the easiest one to explain. Yuma is someone who have a low self esteem and the most obedient of the ghost. Yuma is the only one who makes a huge fuss regarding Miria's order, the other two doesn't seem to care as long it helps someone. Since Yuma is not a good sensor and will probably just follow the other two if they decide to go after an AO, perhaps voicing a small disagreement, but ultimately going along. Wait this already happened :)

Cynthia - a good sensor and seems to be a good samaritan before being a good soldier. She was okay with Claire going against Miria's order to help the townspeople. But, actually Cynthia doesn't complicate the situation since she doesn't know Dauf's signature and will have no way of knowing Dauf is Riful's henchman/ partner.
Regarding Miria's order, Cynthia I think will be okay in fighting awakened ones even if it explicitly against the order if she thinks that they do it, but, she will not allow Claire to shake them off. Since she is primarily goodhearted, it is for what she believes Claire's safety so she can't run wild and lastly that is their purpose for this trip.

Claire - Claire knows Dauf's signature thus homing on his youki signature can only be done with full consciousness and can not be an accident. She also believes that Rubel is setting her up and Riful can not be beaten by her. So no reason for Claire to go into certain death and endanger her comrades ...

wait ... I take back everything that I've said regarding for Claire homing on Dauf's signature as illogical - it is exactly something she would do. Not that I'm saying that Claire is illogical, I'm just saying that it makes perfect sense following the progression of her character.

Evidence : Claire still wants to be the one who defeats Priscilla even when it is nigh impossible. Still follows Rubul's advices even though she is suspicious of him perhaps from the beginning. (Though, even if his advice is near suicidal it is helpful to her goal. )

So, in short, it is plausible with Rubel's information, Claire's knowledge of Dauf's youki and the fact that the group is clearly in exterminate AO mode. They will be put in that situation.

But, I do not think that Claire purposely want Yuma to be injured in the confrontation with Dauf. I think Claire is actually truthful in that one, it is a split second decision, but, I believe with a lot of thought put into it.

From witches maw, it is said that it is harder to heal crushed bones than ones that are simply cut. Perhaps Claire remembered that one and thought it is for the best. And since Yuma is currently in Dauf's hand at that time to minimize the damage already taken and the added shock effect to allow their escape, she cut Yuma's leg. This had the added side effect of allowing Claire to break free from her minders which is a bonus.

So from a tactical point of view, it allowed Claire to accomplish the objective of safeguarding her friends without blowing their cover and the bonus objective allowing her free movements to pursue rescue operations or perhaps information gathering without endangering her allies. It is the best move possible in that situation which neatly takes care of her objectives and as a friend and comrade.

And regarding this statement "I am not as softhearted as a person that I would risk my life for a warrior I do not know." is clearly a lie to placate Cynthia in staying with Yuma. Besides Claire you already did "the risk my life for a warrior that I do not know." Jean, anyone?

The truth is perhaps something Claire said " Sorry, even if I am hiding my real self I am not mature enough, to just stand here and get my comrades killed."


End rant. Thanks for the welcome guys and please comment.

Welcome.
I like the part when you said,
"let's go on the assumption that is no plot hole and the characters actually have good reasons to be there".

[Awakened]

@sleepy:
Also, she was trained by Rubel to be a covert operative. So that is where she learned to casually lie to people. Rubel trained Clare to be a natural liar. :P :D and hide her feelings so she wouldn't give herself away in a covert operation..

I like that explanation. Ruble seem to be proud of his accomplishment.:D

[Awakened]

To meet Rafa? Hmmm!:eyebrow: I think that definitely has something to do with Teresa. The Teresa which is inside her.:)

You made me think of the time Teresa met Rafaela when she was young.

[MonsieurRosseau]

Leaving Yuma to regenerate herself would be problematic because she would no longer have suppressed yoki... Cynthia appears able to help heal without it, somehow.

[night_sentinel]

Gangsta I have been thinking about what you said, the one wherein Claire lies a lot and in retrospect I agree with you. In fact, going through the manga it is much easier to count how many times Claire told the truth than when she lied. Another pattern I noticed is everytime Claire lied it is usually to project a cold-hearted demeanor which we know is the farthest from the truth. In fact, the last time where Claire is wholly truthful is when she was with Teressa.

I think that Claire have tried to be cold-hearted to prevent getting close to anyone so she won't get hurt and to avoid having comrades that get in the way of her primary goal at that time which is killing Priscilla. Claire isn't dumb enough to not notice that her goal is tantamount to a suicide mission so in her own way by being cold-hearted she is effectively protecting anyone who came across her.

It doesn't help that everyone that she seems to get close to seems to meet some sort of misfortune so she might have gotten in her head that getting close to her is bad luck. For ex.

Raki - was put in dangerous situations/ sold to slavery / walking with a hungry Priscilla that might eat him at an inconvenient moment.
Teresa - lost her edge in meeting her and got killed in a rotten surprise attack
Jean - sacrificed her life to stop Claire from completely awakening.
Flora - got killed so quickly we we're wondering what happened.

Just like Sleepy also said it doesn't help that Claire in covert ops by Rubul who is a spy and seems to be playing everyone like a harp. Or she might even be adopting a warrior demeanor to be "fit in battle".

Netherless, even with all the advantages of being cold-hearted may present to Claire, the problem lies with the fact that it isn't genuine and is perhaps the opposite of her true temperament. She cares badly for everyone and cannot help herself when in comes to rescuing someone no matter what she says. She may be able to project a cold aura and may even have a wonderful tactical mind but on the inside she still seethes like a volcano and her heart is anything but calm.

So in the end, Claire lies and lies, to protect the one she cares the most and to survive. I think Rubul compounded on Claire being dishonest and unable to share information. Since, Claire seems to have a keen grasp of a person and having Rubul as a handler would mean a lot of secrets that need to be kept so that Rubul woundn't have a lot of ammo to sling and buttons to push. He's good enough as it is.

I think Chiba-san was the one who mentioned it, but, it was interesting to note that Claire lies a lot while Teresa doesn't. Or perhaps they aren't that all different afterall Teressa also lies but, according to her with a reason. It is also interesting that Claire's and Teresa's path are mirror images of another going on the opposite direction. While Teresa is trying to regain her humanity, Claire is trying to be a warrior.

[iLney]

What?...

You can bash her ability but you cannot bash her character!!!

Clare lies?! When? Where?

[yezhanquan]

She usually says the opposite of how she really feels. However, people like Rubel, who "reads" people, can read her like an open book. Rubel is having his "Just as planned" monologue ever since she survived in the Slashers arc.

[iLney]

That's what they get for trying to expose her feelings. It's not like she uses those lies to achieve her agenda. On the contrary, she says what she believes to be best for others!

[yezhanquan]

I think Miria sort of worked that into her talk with the girl. She's not taking Clare at her word ever again.

[night_sentinel]

Ilney-san I'm sorry if it sounds that way but, I'm not bashing Claire's character when I say she lies. In fact, I actually like Claire a lot as a character and admire her for it. Not that I'm saying that it is comendable to lie but in that situation perhaps the best option for her is to lie.

Claire lies a lot. She lies about her motivation, just look at what she said to Raki when she rescued him She denied the fact that she just rescued him at a cost to herself using a risky tactical maneuver citing that it is what she planned at the beginning. On the very same chapter, she also took Raki who has now no where to go with her due to the fact that Raki can cook. We know Claymore don't need to eat much and Raki will be a burden on her journey so Claire is clearly lying.

From this example. Claire lies seem to put her on a harsher light than what her actions imply. Instead of a Claymore who found an abandoned orphan and was willing to care for Raki when his own villagers throwed him out. According to Claire who is clearly lying she is just using the boy for his own means.

It seems Claire doesn't want to be praised for her deeds nor seen as someone benevolent even when her actions is clearly praiseworthy. As I've said in my previous post this may be a way for Claire to protect others since her mission statement is borderline suicidal and danger seems to follow her. So discouraging those who wish to follow is the top priority.

In short, saying Claire lies isn't an untrue statement nor it is bashing. It shows that Claire isn't a vainglorious character who seeks glory and praise, but someone who puts others before her. She also seems to want atonement and may have an unhealthy amount of self-hatred judging from the harsh way she describes her action. But, this is no disparagement in my book but a sign that she cares too much and.

[yezhanquan]

In short, deeds not words.

[Awakened]

Ilney-san I'm sorry if it sounds that way but, I'm not bashing Claire's character when I say she lies. In fact, I actually like Claire a lot as a character and admire her for it. Not that I'm saying that it is comendable to lie but in that situation perhaps the best option for her is to lie.

Claire lies a lot. She lies about her motivation, just look at what she said to Raki when she rescued him She denied the fact that she just rescued him at a cost to herself using a risky tactical maneuver citing that it is what she planned at the beginning. On the very same chapter, she also took Raki who has now no where to go with her due to the fact that Raki can cook. We know Claymore don't need to eat much and Raki will be a burden on her journey so Claire is clearly lying.

From this example. Claire lies seem to put her on a harsher light than what her actions imply. Instead of a Claymore who found an abandoned orphan and was willing to care for Raki when his own villagers throwed him out. According to Claire who is clearly lying she is just using the boy for his own means.

It seems Claire doesn't want to be praised for her deeds nor seen as someone benevolent even when her actions is clearly praiseworthy. As I've said in my previous post this may be a way for Claire to protect others since her mission statement is borderline suicidal and danger seems to follow her. So discouraging those who wish to follow is the top priority.

In short, saying Claire lies isn't an untrue statement nor it is bashing. It shows that Claire isn't a vainglorious character who seeks glory and praise, but someone who puts others before her. She also seems to want atonement and may have an unhealthy amount of self-hatred judging from the harsh way she describes her action. But, this is no disparagement in my book but a sign that she cares too much and.

I agree, she lies about her emotions. Irean and Galatea said basically the same thing. Calm on the outside but troubled on the inside (contradictions).

[yezhanquan]

Ever wondered why Rubel never bothers to raise his voice at Clare?

[Cyclone]

Your curiosity drove me into another translation task. :D

*Rubel saw an order to "recover #47" was given to Elmita, who is assigned to Galatea.*
The below is exact words of Rubel in Japanese.
さて、絶体絶命だな・・・一体あいつはどうする気なのか・・・
My not-so-good translation as usual: Now, she is in a serious trouble...I wonder what she should be going to do...

I don't know why the translator translated 絶体絶命 to stalemate. Direct translation of 絶体絶命would be an absolute end of life. So, the meaning of whole the sentence would be "Now she is in danger of an absolute end of her life." So, simply put, Now she is in a big/serious trouble. This is not so complicated as it may appear since 絶体絶命 is rather common a word composed of four kanjis (四字熟語) in Japanese.

After all, Rubel may have simply let Raphaela follow Galatea in order to see how things would turn out. In any case, Rubel is quite manipulative in sending Clare to various dangerous missions and we don't know his true motive while Clare seems to simply think he has been trying to drive her, half-awakened into death. It is interesting to see,　despite of her feeling to Rubel, she is still going to see Raphaela as Rubel suggested in the latest episode.

Chaps, before calling it a bad translation, check out Jim Breen's:

絶体絶命; 絶対絶命 【ぜったいぜつめい】 (adj-na,n,adj-no) desperate situation; being driven into a corner; stalemate [Ex][G][GI][S][A][W] [G][GI][S][A]
我々は絶体絶命のピンチに追い込まれた。 We were driven to the wall.

If memory serves, that was probably a 10sigh translation, so I doubt it has too many mistakes - he did a pretty job on the whole.

A tip chiba - Always check the whole line of kanji first in case they make up some specific term. This has got me several times myself.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

I like that explanation. Ruble seem to be proud of his accomplishment.:D

Of course he proud of his accomplishment. :D He sees Clare as his daughter -- a bit father like daughter here. Although, he would sacrifice his daughter for his country.

Ch. 85 pg. 1 (One Manga): It doesn't matter what you think or even if you believe me: from the moment you brought me Teresa's head and wanted to join the organization, I felt that this was to be. I felt like I was the one who brought you up and really favored you. Seeing you after so long makes me happy.

I really believe Rubel when he says that, Out of curiosity, is there a more specific word for favored here, to any of the translators?

[necrosis6]

I've been reading the forums every once and a while and decided it was time to register and comment.

This Chapter:
As people have mentioned, what jumps out is how the group came into contact with Duff. I think that the events that followed afterwards made perfect sense. Clare couldn't cut Duff without using yoki so she had to settle with cutting off Yuma's leg when the first attempt to free her failed. She probably cut off the leg rather than try to free it because escape was a priority. Riful is around Duff so they needed to escape fast in case she showed up. Cynthia is needed to help Yuma regenerate because she needs to do it while still cloaked. That's why Clare will end up going alone imo.

My personal guess as to how Duff was able to find the trio is that when he was a claymore, he was the first eye. Being the first generation, it is possible that the org didn't realize much about yoki sensing so they taught their eye tracking and yoki sensing. Dietrich showed that she was able to follow cloaked warriors when she was only half as fast as them, so it's definitely possible to find and track the ghosts(I assume that someone running 10 times faster than a person would sound very different from any wild animals). Either way, since it is something so obvious, it will definitely be resolved sometime in the future. Maybe Duff could notice the AE right before/during Riful's fight with Alicia.

The other seeming inconsistency was Galatea's report of yoki sensing. My interpretation is that she felt Isley's death but because she said that she was uncertain about it, she decided it wasn't worth reporting. Only when Dietrich came, did she decide to report in.

Anyways, to prevent a complete wall of text, I'll post my thoughts on the other topics later.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

I've been reading the forums every once and a while and decided it was time to register and comment.

This Chapter:
As people have mentioned, what jumps out is how the group came into contact with Duff. I think that the events that followed afterwards made perfect sense. Clare couldn't cut Duff without using yoki so she had to settle with cutting off Yuma's leg when the first attempt to free her failed. She probably cut off the leg rather than try to free it because escape was a priority. Riful is around Duff so they needed to escape fast in case she showed up. Cynthia is needed to help Yuma regenerate because she needs to do it while still cloaked. That's why Clare will end up going alone imo.

My personal guess as to how Duff was able to find the trio is that when he was a claymore, he was the first eye. Being the first generation, it is possible that the org didn't realize much about yoki sensing so they taught their eye tracking and yoki sensing. Dietrich showed that she was able to follow cloaked warriors when she was only half as fast as them, so it's definitely possible to find and track the ghosts(I assume that someone running 10 times faster than a person would sound very different from any wild animals). Either way, since it is something so obvious, it will definitely be resolved sometime in the future. Maybe Duff could notice the AE right before/during Riful's fight with Alicia.

The other seeming inconsistency was Galatea's report of yoki sensing. My interpretation is that she felt Isley's death but because she said that she was uncertain about it, she decided it wasn't worth reporting. Only when Dietrich came, did she decide to report in.

Anyways, to prevent a complete wall of text, I'll post my thoughts on the other topics later.

It's a possible theory, because Duff seems to be a better yoki sensor than Riful. He spotted Clare first; although, didn't Galatea surprise him and riful, or they didn't notice until she entered the corridor. The big question is: Are those yoki emitting rods the reason why Duff notice Clare before Riful or not? If not, then he is a decent sensor, but I'll need more evidence before I agree that he was the eye. As to my current theory of why duff knew something was out there: the sixth sense. Clare had it right before she met Ophelia. Miata has it. It is something all creatures are capable of having.

[Cyclone]

Welcome aboard, necrosis6.

A far worthier eye for the male generation(s) is the turtle Awakened Being we met in Pieta (the scout group). Duff was probably good all around - he was #3 afterall.

As for Galatea-sama, we really have no idea just hown much time passed between her talk with Miria and us seeing Dietrich in her cloak. For all we know, Miria may have had 3 days notice for Dietrich's arrival.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Welcome aboard, necrosis6.

A far worthier eye for the male generation(s) is the turtle Awakened Being we met in Pieta (the scout group). Duff was probably good all around - he was #3 afterall.

As for Galatea-sama, we really have no idea just hown much time passed between her talk with Miria and us seeing Dietrich in her cloak. For all we know, Miria may have had 3 days notice for Dietrich's arrival.

That is true, but from the comments about the yoki quality and size that Miria makes when the rest of the yomas attack, it makes him sound like he was a small fry.

Ch 56. Pg 21. (one manga): As expected, this is completely different from the three before: quality of yoma energy, ... size, ... simply everything.

Would the org allow a small fry to be the eye? Quite frankly, it bothers me, because his yoki manipulation skills were awesome, but yet those three are called weak by Miria.

[Cyclone]

Of course he proud of his accomplishment. :D He sees Clare as his daughter -- a bit father like daughter here. Although, he would sacrifice his daughter for his country.

Ch. 85 pg. 1 (One Manga): It doesn't matter what you think or even if you believe me: from the moment you brought me Teresa's head and wanted to join the organization, I felt that this was to be. I felt like I was the one who brought you up and really favored you. Seeing you after so long makes me happy.

I really believe Rubel when he says that, Out of curiosity, is there a more specific word for favored here, to any of the translators?

he says:
...kekko ki ni itteiru n da

in this case, kekko = fairly (reasonably; fairly; tolerably)
ki ni iru = to be pleased with; to suit (root words: enter into mind)

Personally, I'd toss all that aside though, and I think the closest English translation might just be: "you've grown on me"

Take your pick if you think you can phrase it better though.

[Cyclone]

That is true, but from the comments about the yoki quality and size that Miria makes when the rest of the yomas attack, it makes him sound like he was a small fry.

Ch 56. Pg 21. (one manga): As expected, this is completely different from the three before: quality of yoma energy, ... size, ... simply everything.

Would the org allow a small fry to be the eye? Quite frankly, it bothers me, because his yoki manipulation skills were awesome, but yet those three are called weak by Miria.

Eyes have never been the strongest - it's not essential for them. Galatea-sama was #3, but Renee/Rune is #6 (behind Audrey and Rachel). My Personal theory is that eyes are most often in the #6 - #15 range, and Galatea-sama is the exception rather than the rule (surely God-eye status must bump her up a few ranks).

The Turtle AB showed youki manipulation skills far above even Galatea-sama, and when the other ABs wanted to know exactly how many Claymores were in Pieta, they asked him. He counted them exactly - from a range far enough away that none of the Claymores (even Clare, Cynthia, and Tabitha) noticed them. If anyone was the male generation's eye, my bet is on him.

[Throne Invader]

Eyes have never been the strongest - it's not essential for them. Galatea-sama was #3, but Renee/Rune is #6 (behind Audrey and Rachel). My Personal theory is that eyes are most often in the #6 - #15 range, and Galatea-sama is the exception rather than the rule (surely God-eye status must bump her up a few ranks).

The Turtle AB showed youki manipulation skills far above even Galatea-sama, and when the other ABs wanted to know exactly how many Claymores were in Pieta, they asked him. He counted them exactly - from a range far enough away that none of the Claymores (even Clare, Cynthia, and Tabitha) noticed them. If anyone was the male generation's eye, my bet is on him.

Probably due to the fact that she has the highest rate of yoki release, she garners the number 3 position. She won't start out as a very strong claymore in comparison to Ophelia but during the battle Galatea's powers grow so she becomes unmatched by the other claymores of her generation. She's more powerful than Audrey in my opinion.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Eyes have never been the strongest - it's not essential for them. Galatea-sama was #3, but Renee/Rune is #6 (behind Audrey and Rachel). My Personal theory is that eyes are most often in the #6 - #15 range, and Galatea-sama is the exception rather than the rule (surely God-eye status must bump her up a few ranks).

The Turtle AB showed youki manipulation skills far above even Galatea-sama, and when the other ABs wanted to know exactly how many Claymores were in Pieta, they asked him. He counted them exactly - from a range far enough away that none of the Claymores (even Clare, Cynthia, and Tabitha) noticed them. If anyone was the male generation's eye, my bet is on him.

Yeah, but Galatea-sama would be frightening if she ever awakens. The whole yoki manipulation thing is a powerful weapon. I often wonder that if Galatea would awaken, if she would be more dangerous than Riful.

As for eyes, I often wonder if Teresa was the eye of her generation.

[Throne Invader]

What also gives Galatea an edge is that she's intelligent. She would be like the Teresa + Irene of Clare's generation.

[Gooral]

(...)
As for Galatea-sama, we really have no idea just hown much time passed between her talk with Miria and us seeing Dietrich in her cloak. For all we know, Miria may have had 3 days notice for Dietrich's arrival.
As I've written four days ago (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=2318737#post2318737) I doubt much time passed between her talk with Miria because in that case she should be able to sense ghosts at point blank range. I mean, if she could sense a claymore on the youki-suppressing pills in such a long distance that it would take 3 days of running (or even walking) to get there then I'm sure she would be able to sense ghosts at point blank range (which we know she can't). I even doubt she could sense a claymore on the pills before she lost her sight. Riful has an excellent youki detector but she couldn't pinpoint ghosts' location thanks to the pills (I'm not sure if each of them received whole dose/pill and there were four of them so they should be more easily detected if youki is additive).
Most convincing to me is Sleepy_Speculator's explanation, i.e. Galatea sensed Isley's death sooner but decided to tell it only when she detected Renee.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

What also gives Galatea an edge is that she's intelligent. She would be like the Teresa + Irene of Clare's generation.

Galatea also has a higher yoki release rate(right phrase?) than Alicia. I think only Miata beats Galatea there. And the thing to me is that Yoki manipulation is one of the most powerful weapons there is. I think Galatea would by far surpass the male manipulator :p if she were to awaken. To me, an awakened Galatea, would be Abyssal. I wonder if being a defensive type also keeps you from being #1. Though Alicia and Beth probably still would be #1 and #2 because the org thinks the soul link is the key to defeating the DoD.

I hope I'm not overestimating Galatea, but she seems to have the right combination of ingredients to be Abyssal, IMO

[Gooral]

Galatea also has a higher yoki release rate(right phrase?) than Alicia. I think only Miata beats Galatea there. And the thing to me is that Yoki manipulation is one of the most powerful weapons there is. I think Galatea would by far surpass the male manipulator :p if she were to awaken. To me, an awakened Galatea, would be Abyssal. I wonder if being a defensive type also keeps you from being #1. Though Alicia and Beth probably still would be #1 and #2 because the org thinks the soul link is the key to defeating the DoD.
Just because Galatea has higher youki release rate doesn't mean she would be an abyssal after awakening. She could still be weaker than awakened Ophelia even though she would be dozen times stronger than her usual self. In fact Riful measured her strength and wasn't impressed at all. Her comment: "Heh, you're just delaying the inevitable" suggests she knew Galatea was weaker than Dauff. Plus her ambiguous comment about Jean and Clare "become stronger" excluding Galatea makes me think that sensing goddess' strength was quite disappointing. As for her manipulating skills, they can be easily overcome if one has enough youki and strength.

On a side note, I recommend reading Kinematics' post (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=1708549&highlight=formula#post1708549) regarding this matter. Even if Galatea had higher rate at which power increases because of weak base power she could be weaker than Ophelia.

[chibamonster]

@Cyclone: Bah! I knew I was missing something. I even wrote it in my post. I looked up the kanji's and everything and was wondering if it was a phrase as opposed to two words. My kandosha's kanji learner didn't have the phrase. I even was at Jim Breens, I just didn't put all the kanji in, though I looked through the examples. Well, at least my instinct was right that I was missing something even if I didn't get the right answer. As I read over the raw I must have gotten a little lost as I kept hearing Nia from Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagan saying, "zettai teki zetsubou" over and over and I could feel my spiral power waining...

[night_sentinel]

Btw, is there a fixed formula on the multiplier that one gets from awakening? Or is it something that is subjective from Claymore to Claymore ? Thx. :)

To Ilney-san, I think I owe you an apology. Though I am not taking back what I have said earlier in the earlier post.

Gangsta I have been thinking about what you said, the one wherein Claire lies a lot and in retrospect I agree with you. In fact, going through the manga it is much easier to count how many times Claire told the truth than when she lied. Another pattern I noticed is everytime Claire lied it is usually to project a cold-hearted demeanor which we know is the farthest from the truth. In fact, the last time where Claire is wholly truthful is when she was with Teressa.

I think that Claire have tried to be cold-hearted to prevent getting close to anyone so she won't get hurt and to avoid having comrades that get in the way of her primary goal at that time which is killing Priscilla. Claire isn't dumb enough to not notice that her goal is tantamount to a suicide mission so in her own way by being cold-hearted she is effectively protecting anyone who came across her.

It doesn't help that everyone that she seems to get close to seems to meet some sort of misfortune so she might have gotten in her head that getting close to her is bad luck. For ex.

Raki - was put in dangerous situations/ sold to slavery / walking with a hungry Priscilla that might eat him at an inconvenient moment.
Teresa - lost her edge in meeting her and got killed in a rotten surprise attack
Jean - sacrificed her life to stop Claire from completely awakening.
Flora - got killed so quickly we we're wondering what happened.

Just like Sleepy also said it doesn't help that Claire in covert ops by Rubul who is a spy and seems to be playing everyone like a harp. Or she might even be adopting a warrior demeanor to be "fit in battle".

Netherless, even with all the advantages of being cold-hearted may present to Claire, the problem lies with the fact that it isn't genuine and is perhaps the opposite of her true temperament. She cares badly for everyone and cannot help herself when in comes to rescuing someone no matter what she says. She may be able to project a cold aura and may even have a wonderful tactical mind but on the inside she still seethes like a volcano and her heart is anything but calm.

So in the end, Claire lies and lies, to protect the one she cares the most and to survive. I think Rubul compounded on Claire being dishonest and unable to share information. Since, Claire seems to have a keen grasp of a person and having Rubul as a handler would mean a lot of secrets that need to be kept so that Rubul woundn't have a lot of ammo to sling and buttons to push. He's good enough as it is.

I think Chiba-san was the one who mentioned it, but, it was interesting to note that Claire lies a lot while Teresa doesn't. Or perhaps they aren't that all different afterall Teressa also lies but, according to her with a reason. It is also interesting that Claire's and Teresa's path are mirror images of another going on the opposite direction. While Teresa is trying to regain her humanity, Claire is trying to be a warrior.

I think that the above still holds true for the reason why Claire doesn't tell the truth. But, I was wondering how Claire seems to be a bit blatant on how she lies to us readers and perhaps to others but, at the same time we see her as a trustworthy person and take her word for it. I think the answer is Claire isn't lying, she just isn't telling the whole truth. In fact, I would say that Claire doesn't lie.

Before, everyone lynch me for saying that I think Claire learned the Aes Sedai way of telling the truth from Rubel. If you notice Rubel doesn't actually lie to those he is manipulating, he just tells parts of the truth that will effectively manipulate the person in question. The only person that seems to know what he is doing is Claire who might be using a similar method.

An example of this is when Rimuto asked Rubel for his opinion on Claire defeating Ophelia.
"That a number 47 fought against an awakened number 4 and won. If there is a that possibility. It is close to zero."
Notice that the statement isn't a lie at all. The possibility of that actually happening is close to zero. Rubel didn't lie, he just don't volunteer a crucial piece of information.

This method of telling the truth is also prevalent in Claire especially in the Deceptive Enchantress. Riful asked Claire to join her and Claire answered, " [B]I'll consider it."[/B ]
This is also not a lie, Claire did consider Riful's proposal. She just said no.

Contrast it to one instance in which Claire actually gave her word to Raki that she will find him. This may also fall into that method of telling the truth to placate Raki in running away and giving him a reason to live. But, it can be argued that Claire did her best to stay alive even trying to fake her own death. And for 7 years in the North without even a single sign that Raki is alive she still did not give up.

[chibamonster]

There is a Yiddish Proverb that says, "A half truth is a full lie." I'm going to have to wait on diving into the psychology of Clare and Rubel's interactions. They are a bit complicated. At least Teresa only lied once about her own insane power to her handler, which fit her criteria of "I don't lie. I don't have to" because apparently she did have to lie. Riful is honest so she is easy to figure out.

As for there being a fixed multiplier for awakening I do not think any of us know exactly what happens. But that won't stop us from speculating! We have only seen a hand full of Claymores awaken. I might miss some but off the top of my head we see Priscilla, Ophelia, Katea, Jean, and Hilda. There are many more awakened beings, but we never see them as Claymores and we do not see Hilda or Katea do any fighting as Claymores. Ophelia did not know she had awakened and once she figured it out she kind of gave up, though she did appear to be quite strong as an AB even against Clare's new 1/2 Irene quicksword. Jean did not fight as an AB. So Priscilla is the only one we really have and she is so special it is hard to use her as a standard.

That being said we can piece some bits together; even an average AB usually requires a team of 4 Claymores to defeat. The AB in the Slasher's arc was beyond the teams ability, even with partial awakenings (good thing Clare got Teresa's youki sensing!). However, the single digit cute little girl AB that Clare and Ophelia fought was stronger than the 6 armed AB and Ophelia took her alone (with the advantage of having a twisty skeleton). Miria did explain there was a huge leap from herself to the top 5 though.

The 3 Male AB's in the Pieta who were scouts did very well; the problem was they were not fighting just Claymores. They were fighting 5 partially awakened creatures as well, who pretty much killed all 3 of them.

Partial awakening, however, does give some definite advantages we can see. Clare when she partially awakened her limbs became exponentially stronger. This did not seem to be the case with Ophelia, but Ophelia was half youma. Clare is half Teresa. This makes Clare an impossible measuring stick. It does appear that Clare gets exponentially stronger over her limit though. Since she is the only one who fights over her limit and is also a special experiment this makes it difficult to know if she is so strong because she is over her limit or because she is over her limit and she has Teresa inside her.

How much one is improved by awakening is hard to tell. If we look at the data books, which I do not trust, then awakening really does not change ones stats that much (Ophelia and the single digit AB she killed have almost even AB stats). Fights go so many different ways in Claymore that raw power is not the only issue, like the quicksword being the perfect foil for Ophelia's ripple blade or Galatea using Youki Manipulation on Duff who couldn't figure it out. Since we see so few AB's who we knew as Claymores it is really hard to tell.

The advantages that an AB has over a Claymore are pretty good though; AB's have no limit to worry about, even offensive AB's can regenerate in time, AB's get special attacks and their bodies turn into weapons, they get special abilities like rods or stretchy fingers or armor, and they are all bigger than their human form. At the moment my personal opinion is that an AB can use 100% of their youki and that the pool does not change from the time they were claymores but the youki fundamentally changes their human body to be something else much stronger. Like how Helen can use her stretchy arm with no youki release now because she is partially awakened or how Riful can use her ribbon's to take sword blows through the head. I think the youki pool stays the same (hence the 0-100% youki release with a limit at 80%) but the effect on the body makes up the definite advantage. A while back we did some looking through the manga and found that most Claymores, even in really bad situations, rarely fight over 30% including the partially awakened Claymores. Clare and Galatea do it though and do it well, Clare being the one scoring the most limit breakers.

My real curiosity, because we have even less to go on, is "why are some Claymores exponentially stronger than others?"

[yezhanquan]

"why are some Claymores exponentially stronger than others?"

Nice one, chiba. This is one piece of the puzzle which will fill up many gaps. After all, the org do want weapons. So, why the range of quality?

Evidently, it took them a while to decide that intelligence is entirely NOT what they want in a weapon, hence those zombies which are relatively new.

[night_sentinel]

Thx Chiba-san for answering my question. :D I think I'll follow your example and take a break regarding Rubul and Claire. I think that they are easily the easiest character to understand and at the same time the most complicated. Considering, Claire is the main character and we see her a lot that is saying something. We don't even know what she will do in the landmine of a situation she will step into next chapter. Will she make a deal with Riful? Awaken Raphaela or prevent her from awakening? Rescue Reenie? Heck she can even help Alicia...

About what makes Claymore more stronger than others is a bit of mystery. I bet that the org doesn't know how to consistently make stronger Claymores. This is evidenced by the fact that there are 47 Claymore created every generation that vary in strength. And there are no good comparison regarding a generations number and another generation. A number 1 of one generation might be just a number 3 on another.

Personally, I believe that it depends on the human being that is part of the experiment. Since, it is the only variable that the org does not directly control. It might be the reaction of the human involved to the hybridization or perhaps it is just the human's talent coming to play. After all we are all gifted with different talent naturally in varying degrees.

This is just talking about regular experiments though, other experiments such as Claire and the soul link experiment might have different mechanics. Claire seem to be noticeably weaker than others but so is the current fusion of Raphaela and Luciella, who despite having youki to vaporize Dauf according to Reenie doesn't emit any. Perhaps Claire's youki is the same and can only be access when nearing her limits ? Or perhaps when her body is changed enough to allow it?
This are all just speculations though ^^.

[Tale]

Chaps, before calling it a bad translation, check out Jim Breen's
In my understanding, a stalemate ends up with a draw or a deadlock situation. While, in this case, what Rebul means is that Clare is "driven into a corner" now that Galatea is after her. At least, here, he is not talking about a deadlock situation between two opponents but about the desperate situation of Clare. In fact, chibamonster took it wrong due to the translation. :heh:

he says:
...kekko ki ni itteiru n da

in this case, kekko = fairly (reasonably; fairly; tolerably)
ki ni iru = to be pleased with; to suit (root words: enter into mind)

Personally, I'd toss all that aside though, and I think the closest English translation might just be: "you've grown on me"
Agreed. It sounds like it. ;)

@Cyclone: Bah! I knew I was missing something. I even wrote it in my post. I looked up the kanji's and everything and was wondering if it was a phrase as opposed to two words. My kandosha's kanji learner didn't have the phrase.
Hmmm...I thought 絶体絶命 was more common Japanese expression. In any case, as Cyclone pointed out, letter by letter translation of kanji characters often leads you to strange results. If you come across to a set of kanjis, don't check your dictionary using each kanji but the set of it.

I even was at Jim Breens, I just didn't put all the kanji in, though I looked through the examples. Well, at least my instinct was right that I was missing something even if I didn't get the right answer. As I read over the raw I must have gotten a little lost as I kept hearing Nia from Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagan saying, "zettai teki zetsubou" over and over and I could feel my spiral power waining...
絶対的絶望 is definitely not common at all. 絶対的(absolute or ultimate)　and 絶望(despair). Yea...I guess you need to be accustomed to some common kanji combinations. However, in this case, 的 can be a hint since it changes a noun phrase before it into an adjective one.

BTW, I liked it when even the God-Eye's intelligence didn't mean anything before the unpredictability of Clarice and Miata. She may have expected at least someone like Dietrich coming after her. The sharp contrast among characters are well-done here. :D

[yezhanquan]

Our Lady Galatea is intelligent, but she's not a chessmistress, or a lemonade seller.

[Cyclone]

Just because Galatea has higher youki release rate doesn't mean she would be an abyssal after awakening. She could still be weaker than awakened Ophelia even though she would be dozen times stronger than her usual self. In fact Riful measured her strength and wasn't impressed at all. Her comment: "Heh, you're just delaying the inevitable" suggests she knew Galatea was weaker than Dauff. Plus her ambiguous comment about Jean and Clare "become stronger" excluding Galatea makes me think that sensing goddess' strength was quite disappointing. As for her manipulating skills, they can be easily overcome if one has enough youki and strength.

On a side note, I recommend reading Kinematics' post (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=1708549&highlight=formula#post1708549) regarding this matter. Even if Galatea had higher rate at which power increases because of weak base power she could be weaker than Ophelia.

This line of reasoning is so faulty, I don't know where to start.
I consider this obvious, but I'll state it for the record: An Awakened Being is stronger than the Claymore they used to be. There is a reason they are hunted 4 on 1 (with a single digit present).

As such, Claymore Galatea-sama (#3) fighting Male Awaken Being Duff (#3), I'd expect her to lose. I'd also expect the fight to tighten up alot if, heaven forbid, Galatea-sama should awaken. Judging from the turtle guy in Pieta, Galatea-sama's youki manipulating powers would increase, and since Duff was barely able to handle Galatea-sama's manipulating powers in her Claymore state, chances are he'd become a puppet for Awakened Being Galatea-sama and being serious would not help him.

As for Riful's "become stronger" comment to Clare and Jean, without even having to look, I know you've taken it out of context. What preceeds it is "you two are most of the way there already". So clearly is she is speaking to 2 partially awakened claymores in front of her - not trying to snub Galatea-sama.

And as for Ophelia being stronger... that's just plain stupid. Why would anyone think the #3 claymore is worse than the #4 claymore?

[Arturro]

And as for Ophelia being stronger... that's just plain stupid. Why would anyone think the #3 claymore is worse than the #4 claymore?

If I remember one of MiBs says combat abilites alone are not enought to determine warrior number. Miata is ranked #4 not because Audrey is a better fighter, but cause of Miata mental instability. Galatea was ranked #3 cause she was an Eye, smart and yoki manipulator. Probably all Eyes are ranked higher than theirs combat abilities. For Claymores there is only one reward - higher number. So MiBs rewards most valuable warriors by giving them higher number.

[Cyclone]

If I remember one of MiBs says combat abilites alone are not enought to determine warrior number. Miata is ranked #4 not because Audrey is a better fighter, but cause of Miata mental instability. Galatea was ranked #3 cause she was an Eye, smart and yoki manipulator. Probably all Eyes are ranked higher than theirs combat abilities. For Claymores there is only one reward - higher number. So MiBs rewards most valuable warriors by giving them higher number.

There have so far been 3 exceptions to warrior ranks and strength: Miata, Raphaela, and Clare. All have been explained as to why they recieved artificially low ranks. Everyone else has been ranked according to strength.

[Sleepy Speculator]

Hmm i gotta thank sentinel and chiba for raising a point in discussion that i'd never thought of before and that is that the title 'witch's maw' could actually be in reference to Clare and not Riful.

What got me to saying this, is that we've been discussing the relative honesty of Clare in the chapter the deceptive enchantress, and whilst Riful was certainly a claymore, she's apparently alot more honest and blatant about what she does than Clare. This would indicate that Clare is the deceptive one. Also looking back the third claymore chapter was titled 'witch's memory' which clearly indicates from the title's perspective that the witch in general was Clare. (silver-eyed witch being a slur the commoners used). And what is an enchantress but another word for witch?

Now if the witch's maw is literally the witch's trap, and we aren't referring to Riful, then it becomes more blatant that the title is a reference to a trap for Clare. Which of course puts a more interesting slant on things.

[Anima]

If I remember one of MiBs says combat abilites alone are not enought to determine warrior number. Miata is ranked #4 not because Audrey is a better fighter, but cause of Miata mental instability. Galatea was ranked #3 cause she was an Eye, smart and yoki manipulator. Probably all Eyes are ranked higher than theirs combat abilities. For Claymores there is only one reward - higher number. So MiBs rewards most valuable warriors by giving them higher number.
My thoughts exactly. I believe that the ranking is based on more than one aspect with strength having a considerable weight.

[Gooral]

(...)
Judging from the turtle guy in Pieta, Galatea-sama's youki manipulating powers would increase (...).
Huh? Where did you get that from? Turtle awakened to have a tough armor and measures to kill many claymores at one time, whether he would have more powerful manipulation skills or not is just our guess. We do not know what skills turtle possessed when he was a claymore. In human form he could easily immobilize four warriors and control claymores. We didn't get a chance to see what he could really do because Clare was attacking him and he had to save himself by awakening. In short: We don't know if youki manipulation skills increase after awakening and if yes then how much.
As for Duff, you're biased because of your affection towards Galatea. Duff didn't "barely" overcome Galatea's trick. He overcame it completely. If we were to believe Riful's words Galatea barely managed to manipulate Duff (vol. 8 p. 166+). If Duff would be more powerful than awakened Galatea then she wouln't be able to control his movements or even temper them.

As for Riful's "become stronger" comment to Clare and Jean, without even having to look, I know you've taken it out of context. What preceeds it is "you two are most of the way there already". So clearly is she is speaking to 2 partially awakened claymores in front of her - not trying to snub Galatea-sama.
Yes, she was speaking to Jean and Clare and EXCLUDED Galatea. Why would she do that? If she thought she wouldn't become stronger then why wouldn't she kidnap her and awaken her? If not than why would she exclude her when she said: "become stronger"? IMO Galatea didn't impress Riful by showing her youki output, if anything she was impressed by her youki manipulation skills.

And as for Ophelia being stronger... that's just plain stupid. Why would anyone think the #3 claymore is worse than the #4 claymore?
Writing it's stupid is stupid :). Ophelia was mentally unstable, so is Miata. Ophelia was #4, Miata is #4. You get my hint? Ophelia was clearly a better warrior than Galatea, she didn't need to rely on youki manipulation to do her job and had massive amounts of youki. Clare instantly knew who should win the fight Gonahl-AB vs. Ophelia. If Ophelia fought Galatea I would bet my money on the first one because Ophelia was intelligent enough (a psychopath too, but that's irrelevant) to not fall for Galatea's trick. And thanks to her rippling sword and better fighting skills (if we believe org's stats) Galatea would be at a disadvantage because their overall youki is roughly the same. Galatea's biggest flaw as a warrior is that she relies on her manipulation trick too much, contrary to Ophelia that always fought head on.

[Throne Invader]

Writing it's stupid is stupid :). Ophelia was mentally unstable, so is Miata. Ophelia was #4, Miata is #4. You get my hint? Ophelia was clearly a better warrior than Galatea, she didn't need to rely on youki manipulation to do her job and had massive amounts of youki. Clare instantly knew who should win the fight Gonahl-AB vs. Ophelia. If Ophelia fought Galatea I would bet my money on the first one because Ophelia was intelligent enough (a psychopath too, but that's irrelevant) to not fall for Galatea's trick. And thanks to her rippling sword and better fighting skills (if we believe org's stats) Galatea would be at a disadvantage because their overall youki is roughly the same. Galatea's biggest flaw as a warrior is that she relies on her manipulation trick too much, contrary to Ophelia that always fought head on.

Ophelia is my most favorite claymore and I really appreciate Gooral boosting her up but I really have to disagree with this. Ophelia isn't as you say mentally unstable. She clearly saw through Clare's trick and she knew what to do in every situation. She had brains but she was just sadistic. She had yearning for blood-shed. She's crazy but not in the way that she'd get retarded at times like Miata. As for the ranking, I have to agree that special skills play a part in a warrior's strength. Tough luck for Ophelia she didn't get Galatea's yoki manipulation skill. Its a good thing though. The world wouldn't be safe anymore if she did:) Thank goodness that skill fell into Galatea's hands instead. I must admit though, it's hard to predict who would win if they were to fight with close combat. Ophelia's rippling sword is hard to block, but I wonder if Galatea can manipulate the rippling sword. Ophelia would have alot to focus on.

[Gooral]

If someone is crazy=mentally ill than I would think he is mentally unstable.

[Arturro]

....Duff didn't "barely" overcome Galatea's trick. He overcame it completely. If we were to believe Riful's words Galatea barely managed to manipulate Duff (vol. 8 p. 166+). If Duff would be more powerful than awakened Galatea then she wouln't be able to control his movements or even temper them.

That explains why Clare didn't saved Uma by forcing Dauf by yoki manipulation. Galatea is a much better in that field than Clare, but even she wasn't good enought to use such trick against Dauf. Not for long.

Writing it's stupid is stupid :). Ophelia was mentally unstable, so is Miata. Ophelia was #4, Miata is #4. You get my hint? Ophelia was clearly a better warrior than Galatea, she didn't need to rely on youki manipulation to do her job and had massive amounts of youki. Clare instantly knew who should win the fight Gonahl-AB vs. Ophelia. If Ophelia fought Galatea I would bet my money on the first one because Ophelia was intelligent enough (a psychopath too, but that's irrelevant) to not fall for Galatea's trick. And thanks to her rippling sword and better fighting skills (if we believe org's stats) Galatea would be at a disadvantage because their overall youki is roughly the same. Galatea's biggest flaw as a warrior is that she relies on her manipulation trick too much, contrary to Ophelia that always fought head on.

Ophelia was better in hand to hand combat than Galatea. Sister Latea :) still was much more worth than Ophelia, thanks to her special abilities. As a spy (before Pieta she was considered exceptional, now other Eyes couldn't belive in her abilities) and as a member of group. Just like Miria, considered #1 when leading a party, thanks to her command skill, Galateas full abilities could be utilised only in group.


IMHO Galatea could sense Ghosts now. Cynthia said she could trace Clare - so Ghosts are trackable by Eyes. Galatea was unable to sense 7fab during fight with Agatha, cause their presence was something new to her, and she need some time to adjust. She wasn't able to spot Riful at first.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Just because Galatea has higher youki release rate doesn't mean she would be an abyssal after awakening. She could still be weaker than awakened Ophelia even though she would be dozen times stronger than her usual self. In fact Riful measured her strength and wasn't impressed at all. Her comment: "Heh, you're just delaying the inevitable" suggests she knew Galatea was weaker than Dauff. Plus her ambiguous comment about Jean and Clare "become stronger" excluding Galatea makes me think that sensing goddess' strength was quite disappointing. As for her manipulating skills, they can be easily overcome if one has enough youki and strength.

On a side note, I recommend reading Kinematics' post (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=1708549&highlight=formula#post1708549) regarding this matter. Even if Galatea had higher rate at which power increases because of weak base power she could be weaker than Ophelia.

The question really is: was the manipulative male ab better than Galatea at manipulation before he awakened. Yoki manipulation is a powerful weapon. If it wasn't for partially awakened claymores, that particular AB could've killed every Claymore in the town, going to the next group after defeating Clares, and then the next. If Galatea awakened manipulation skills outshine his greatly, which I would think they would if she is a single digit and he was an average Claymore, then Galatea power is frightening.

Sometimes the type of skill you have can be more important than the quality or size of yoki you have. Teresa's ability to predict an opponent's next move is one such skill. Irene wrongly thought that Teresa's stats fell below each of the hunting parties ones concerning where they had specialties, but Teresa was a monster without her ability too. But what that means is a weaker Claymore who has Teresa's ability can do better than stronger claymores who don't have that ability. Yoki Manipulation is another such ability, and if an Awakened Galatea could play Claymores like puppets once awakened then her power would just be frightening. Add onto that, that she is one of the most intelligent claymores with a high yoki release then the combination becomes more dangerous.

Also I don't get why we would think that Galatea would have a low base or why Ophelia should have more combat potential. Ophelia did defeat a single digit AB by herself, but the AB only lost because she did not take Ophelia's head off and turned her back on Ophelia. That and Duff is a number 3 specifically, which is much higher than a mid ranked AB. Also Galatea called Jean and Clare weak at the end of the Witch's Maw saying that she would use that as part of the excuse as to why they shouldn't have survived that.


Btw, is there a fixed formula on the multiplier that one gets from awakening? Or is it something that is subjective from Claymore to Claymore ? Thx. :)

To Ilney-san, I think I owe you an apology. Though I am not taking back what I have said earlier in the earlier post.


I think that the above still holds true for the reason why Claire doesn't tell the truth. But, I was wondering how Claire seems to be a bit blatant on how she lies to us readers and perhaps to others but, at the same time we see her as a trustworthy person and take her word for it. I think the answer is Claire isn't lying, she just isn't telling the whole truth. In fact, I would say that Claire doesn't lie.

Before, everyone lynch me for saying that I think Claire learned the Aes Sedai way of telling the truth from Rubel. If you notice Rubel doesn't actually lie to those he is manipulating, he just tells parts of the truth that will effectively manipulate the person in question. The only person that seems to know what he is doing is Claire who might be using a similar method.

An example of this is when Rimuto asked Rubel for his opinion on Claire defeating Ophelia.
"That a number 47 fought against an awakened number 4 and won. If there is a that possibility. It is close to zero."
Notice that the statement isn't a lie at all. The possibility of that actually happening is close to zero. Rubel didn't lie, he just don't volunteer a crucial piece of information.

This method of telling the truth is also prevalent in Claire especially in the Deceptive Enchantress. Riful asked Claire to join her and Claire answered, " [B]I'll consider it."[/B ]
This is also not a lie, Claire did consider Riful's proposal. She just said no.

Contrast it to one instance in which Claire actually gave her word to Raki that she will find him. This may also fall into that method of telling the truth to placate Raki in running away and giving him a reason to live. But, it can be argued that Claire did her best to stay alive even trying to fake her own death. And for 7 years in the North without even a single sign that Raki is alive she still did not give up.

Oh Clare and Rubel are liars. The best way to lie is to tell the truth in a misleading way, but to my great disappointment, Rubel does not do that. No there are plenty of examples where he blatantly lies.

Ch 89 Pg 29 (One Manga): Frankly, I haven't the slightest idea. ... I apologize for being of so little use, but I lost my consciousness at the beginning of the encounter, and so well, ...

Rubel never got knocked out during that encounter. This is a lie that I feel is going to force him to leave the org, because they are going to know he was lying once they talk to people.

For Clare she blatantly lies too, I'm not going to go into as much detail on this one, and without going back to check, I'll paraphrase. This last chapter she said that she was not so nice as to save a warrior she didn't know. That is not a half truth; it is a lie. Also she lies several times to raki to maintain her image, and those weren't half truths either. And then she lies to the Inn Keeper, doing her job here, about the statue she is supposed to sell in town. If Clare was trained to be covert by Rubel, the she was trained to lie and deceive. A lie that is part of your job is still a lie too.

Now for Teresa, she never said that she never ever lied in her past. Rosemary was just when she was starting out as a Claymore. When Teresa says she doesn't lie, because she doesn't need to, she is referring to the person that she is now. I take it more to mean that at some point in her life that Teresa decided that she did not need to lie, and from that point on she did not. So Teresa was being perfectly honest with Clare when she said that. I am sure that almost all honest people that don't lie had come to a decision not to do so at some point in their lives, and that they probably lied at least once when they were children when they were learning the difference between right and wrong.

[chibamonster]

@night_sentinel: The reason I am going to wait on analyzing Clare is I have never really thought how her communication with others ties into her true feelings compared to how Rubel communicates. I have to synthesize for a bit since I have to replay the story again in my head. Clare is in most of the story so there is a lot to think about. I have done a lot of synthesis on Teresa, but she is not in the story for super long so it is a bit easier.

As for what makes a Claymore stronger than another, I am leaning towards what you said about it being out of the orgs hands for the most part and in the human side. My reason is the little we do know about the Claymore creating process with Offensive and Defensive types. Whatever they implant in Claymores (I am guessing a head since Clare brought Rubel Teresa's head knowing it could be put in her) reacts to the claymores feelings and makes them offensive or defensive. I have some other parts to the theory but am really waiting for any more information that surfaces.

It is just amazing how strong some Claymores can be compared to one another. Same with awakened beings. Watching Alicia, Riful and Duff slaughter all the ab's from Pieta without even blinking was just a bit mind blowing. And it would take two Abyssals to drop Priscilla. And Teresa single handedly wiped out Rosemary who if she had awakened earlier would have been an Abyssal.

@yezhanquan: I hadn't made that connection! It is interesting that the Abyssal Feeders and Alicia and Beth are both specially altered to be controllable. I am curious why the Abyssal Feeders would not work as the weapon they need. Can't they just program them to eat DoD flesh? We still do not know what the organizations real goal is. They want a controllable AB because ... ?

What is out in the main land that requires more power to battle than Alicia and Beth or the Abyssal Feeders can manage? Do they want a controllable AB for themselves or do they need to perfect the technique so they can become one? I'm glad Claymore has so many plot pieces moving at the same time. Like the tidbit that Miata has the power to surpass #1 who is Alicia at the moment. :twitch:

@Tale: I don't think Zettai teki Zetsubou is necessarily a more common kanji combination, I have just heard them used together :D. I mean the whole second season of Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagan it is central to everything Nia says. I had rarely heard zetsumei used in conversation, though it does appear in religious text.

@Arturro: If Galatea can sense the ghosts, why in this very last chapter did she wander into them and say, "So this is where you were!" or why did she not know what was happening when they first appeared to slay Galatea?

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Yes, she was speaking to Jean and Clare and EXCLUDED Galatea. Why would she do that? If she thought she wouldn't become stronger then why wouldn't she kidnap her and awaken her? If not than why would she exclude her when she said: "become stronger"? IMO Galatea didn't impress Riful by showing her youki output, if anything she was impressed by her youki manipulation skills.


I think you are taking it out of context. Right before Riful said that, she said something like, "You two are almost halfway there," She was talking about awakening, and advising the half awakeneds to grow in power before they fully awaken. I think it ludicrous to think that Jean has more potential than Galatea. I like Jean, but out of all the half awakeneds we don't see her gaining anything from her half awakening. She still takes an awful long time to do her move, and still seems to fit the bill as a number 9.

Anyway, to another topic, as for why the zacs are not a ideal weapon, it has already been discussed before. Give them Isley meat and they don't go after all Awakened Beings but only Isley. So they are terribly inefficient against DoD, because you have to damage a DoD enough to get a piece of meat, then maybe spend months in the laboratory making some ZACS to only go after him.

[Gooral]

To tease Cyclone a bit more I'll add another thing about Galatea. Why did she reveal herself and go with Miria to confront Dee? Now MiB will know for sure where she is and who is she with. Since Renee was captured I doubt they would know it earlier. But what did strike me the most was Galatea's comment: "you're not even going to capture me" or sth like that. lol, 3 against 1, yeah that's very noble of you Galatea ;). She was teasing Renee, naughty, naughty!

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Galatea is a tease. She teases people all the time, including Dietrich. But, I'm sure she would of insisted it would be a fair fight if Dietrich wanted to take her in. She was going to let Clarice take her life, after saving the town.

[Arturro]

The question really is: was the manipulative male ab better than Galatea at manipulation before he awakened.

I'm not sure if it's a good question. It should be rather: Does yoki manipulation requires yoki? If yes, male AB using his yoki power on 100% have to be stronger than Galatea using her yoki power to manipulate others yoki on 10%. I'd like to see her yoki manipulation when she is over 70%. Not big chances, cause she doesn't like to use her power cause of esthetic reasons :)

Also, why most of people here asume yoki sensing is a passive skill? Acute sensing needs at least lots of concentration. One of awesomnes of Teresa, Clare and Galatea is they could use yoki sensing during fight.

Also I don't get why we would think that Galatea would have a low base or why Ophelia should have more combat potential.

Because:
Ophelia did defeat a single digit AB by herself... and Sometimes the type of skill you have can be more important than the quality or size of yoki you have.

If Galatea can sense the ghosts, why in this very last chapter did she wander into them and say, "So this is where you were!" or why did she not know what was happening when they first appeared to slay Galatea?

We know that:
1. Galatea is an extremly good eye. A God Eye to be precise :)
2. Cynthia said she is able to trace Clare. I doubt she means by that tracing her footsteps.
3. Galatea is able to sense Claymores on pills - so she can trace warrior "without yoki emisions", just like ghosts.
4. When she has meet with Riful first time, she needed time to adjust to Rifuls yoki emitions. Galatea hasn't spot her at first.

IMHO yoki sensing consist of 3 elements. Range, speed and recognition. Range and speed depens of talents, while recognition must be learned.
Range depens of ones skill and strenght of yoki source. Ghosts yoki emitions are very weak, so they could be spotted only on close range. Also ghosts yoki emitions are probably rather strange, so an Eye need to know how to recognize a ghost (recognition element).

Galatea, Cynthia and Tabitha (probably also Renee), are able to predict intentions of yoma users. In chapter 83 page 13 it was Cynthia who sensed AB is about to attack, not Clare. Galatea in slashers arc was able to decipher emotions. Something Clare aren't able to do.

Galatea and Clare have an extremely long range. Clares range matches pre-Pieta Galateas range. In chapter 30 (slashers arc) Galatea was spying on Miria group from other side of mountain (it's look like from the scenery). So her rage was within 10-20 km. I suppose that all warrior have yoki sensing, but with wery limited range and low recognition ability. In first chapter Clare needed to come close to youma to recognize it. So her range was within a few meters. Also in marked fo death arc Sophia and Noel didn't noticed yoma dying 100 meters from them.

Teresa and Clare could spot yoki flow almost instantly, and so they could react even faster than yoki user. Other warriors need time to spot and analyze yoki flow.


Galatea is a tease True! That is one of reasons why I like her so much :) BTW Clare is also a tease.

[iLney]

Oh Clare and Rubel are liars. The best way to lie is to tell the truth in a misleading way...


It's their fault to ask the wrong question... There is only one truth. And the truth sometimes doesn't help at all. If it happens to help, that's just a bonus. Whether to give bonus or not does not classify one as liar. You cannot put Clare and Rubel in a same category.

[chibamonster]

@Arturro: I assumed that your post was about the nature of youki sensing, but because of the quotes you used it seemed like you were saying Galatea could sense the ghosts. If that is the case...

Galatea has not sensed the ghosts at any point since they cloaked even with her enhanced God Eye abilities. She sensed Isley fall which Tabby missed and knew something killed him but also knew that the Abyssal Feeders had no youki. Youki pills are different than a full blown cloak and seem to be a cheap imitation that cannot fool Galatea. Clare could not sense Raphaela or Irene until they stopped by to say hello. Deitrich did not know Helen and Deneve were sitting above her until they dropped down and attacked the AB. Yet she, as a professional peruser was able to follow them without being able to sense them.

Miata gave us readings of the ghosts powers based on smell. Yes Claymores have a smell like blood that they cannot wash off because their body produces it, the partially awakened Claymores even smell suspiciously like AB's. So how could Tabitha track Clare? We don't know, she never had to do it. Was it a bluff to keep Clare in line? Possibly. At the moment though no one has ever sensed a Claymore who has a full blown time perfected cloak unless that cloak is lifted. Raphaela confirms that if Irene had not used her quicksword, she might have remained hidden. Though apparently some Claymores are good enough to track even cloaked warriors. Riful did not have this ability. Neither did Isley. Scattering seems to help confuse a would be tracker.

... but if you are not saying Galatea can sense the ghosts okay :D. Youki sensing is an interesting thing. It is very interesting because youki pills do not just suppress the claymores youki signature, they suppress their youki reading ability and turn their eyes normal color. This is fascinating because the suppression of youki from pills seems to force youki reading abilities down along with their eye color. Apparently they still radiate but only very little. The eye color change is quite intriguing though because it indicates that the claymore's silver eye color is because of the youki currently flowing in them which can stop given the right circumstances.

A Cloak on the other hand does not interfere with youki sensing and the eyes stay silver indicating that whatever youki is flowing through the system is still there, it just does not vibrate at a wave length that anyone can pick up on. Once youki is released it seems to stick in the flesh of the character for a long time after (like performance enhancing drugs for testing) which is why just stopping using youki is not enough to cloak, that residual radiation has to drain out. I wonder if the youki systems are different. Cynthia is able to use youki manipulation to help others heal without breaking her cloak.

It seems like there are almost 2 youki systems in a claymore; an active and a passive youki system which names I just made up. The passive system turns a claymores eyes silver and allows them to read youki but cannot be sensed by others. It seems all of the ghosts abilities rely on this system of youki which apparently can still stretch Helens arms, manipulate youki for Cynthia and do the phantoms for Miria. The active youki system is where the youki release starts. Releasing youki makes a claymore stronger, faster, heal better, eventually awaken and has a individually recognizable signature that can be sensed for quite some time even after the release stops. How do these two systems actually relate and interact? Does one feed the other or are they independent or... I am not sure.

The pills are the biggest clue. Did Miata force the pills out of her system when Clarice told her to release her youki? Is that even possible? I didn't think it was but... well If I could tell what color Miata's eyes were during her fight with Agatha and Galatea it would be much easier, but her hair obscures the vision and she does not need to sense youki to fight which is her major ability. The few shots we do see of her eyes are hard for me to determine as sometimes Yagi draws even pill popping claymores darker eyes as white circles with dots when the claymore is surprised as Clarice definitely is a few times even though she is definitely on youki suppressant pills. Hmm, inconclusive at the moment.

[MonsieurRosseau]

But what that means is a weaker Claymore who has Teresa's ability can do better than stronger claymores who don't have that ability.

*coughClarecough*

@Chiba: I think the passive/active yoki systems is the only thing that makes sense. It's a bit odd how even suppressed yoki people like Raphaela or the ghosts have superhuman strength and abilities, as well as Cynthia's healing powers. Therefore, there is something that makes Claymores separate from humans other than yoki. Not only this, but these "superhuman" powers are also greater than yoma's powers...

[Aimless]

And Teresa single handedly wiped out Rosemary who if she had awakened earlier would have been an Abyssal.

I've always really had an issue with the idea that Rosemary was the equal of the Abyssal Ones. Even from just the little we see of Rosemary during the fight, I have to believe that Riful could mop the floor with her.

Further, you've got to consider the time frame in which Rosemary was number one. We know it was just before Teresa, which means we know it was after Luciela. Further, judging by the fact that Raph's youki had not yet completely vanished when she met Teresa, the time gap between Luciela going berserk and Teresa becoming number one is probably only a handful of years.

Next up, Luciela's awakening is described as a ruinous crisis for the Org., whereas the War in the North was described as being only nearly so - ergo, the Org. was in worse shape after Luciela than it was after Pieta. And yet, even 7 years after Pieta, the Org. has not recovered its manpower to the state is was before.

What all of this is getting at is that Rosemary was number one only during the time that the Org. was recovering from Luciela. This, in combination with her fight with Teresa (and the fact that she was demoted without ever having even met Teresa) leads me to believe that she was number one by default - ie., she got her position merely by being the strongest warrior to survive Luciela's awakening, not by being actual candidate material for number one.

I see the same thing with the top five in this generation; Audrey is quite strong, but when you factor in Miata's instability and Rachel's obvious flaws, I rather imagine Galatea, Ophelia, and Raphaela could mop the floor with them.

[Arturro]

I assumed that your post was about the nature of youki sensing, but because of the quotes you used it seemed like you were saying Galatea could sense the ghosts.

It was about my wiev of yoki sensing, which is, I believe, a complex and difficult skill.
I also asumed that Galatea should be able to sense ghost, cause Cynthia is able to. If you are right, and Cynthia was just bluffing, my speculation has no solid base, and for Galatea sense ghosts are same as ordinary humans.

It seems like there are almost 2 youki systems in a claymore; an active and a passive youki system which names I just made up. The passive system turns a claymores eyes silver and allows them to read youki but cannot be sensed by others. It seems all of the ghosts abilities rely on this system of youki which apparently can still stretch Helens arms, manipulate youki for Cynthia and do the phantoms for Miria. The active youki system is where the youki release starts. Releasing youki makes a claymore stronger, faster, heal better, eventually awaken and has a individually recognizable signature that can be sensed for quite some time even after the release stops

It's one posibility, but there is another. There is no "passive yoki system", just Claymores anatomy is inhuman. Hybridization turns their bodies, so warriors are faster, stronger, can regenerate etc., as well as they gains special abilities like yoki sensing. Miata "on pills" was able to kill multiple yoma and even an AB. Ghosts are cloaked cause they don't use yoki of any kind, they rely on their muscles and senses.
Yoki release is a "power up" - just like yours "active system". Yoki left some kind of "smell" which need a long time to completly disperse. Just remember first chapter, where Clara told about Raki: "This kid has scent of a beast". Raki is not a yoma, yet he had yoki signature.
My hypothesis has a weak point - it doesn't explain why Claymores eyes become normal after pills.

[Aimless]

I also asumed that Galatea should be able to sense ghost, cause Tabitha is able to.

When is it ever said that Tabitha can sense the ghosts? It's made pretty clear during their encounter with Riful and Audrey's team that Tabitha can't sense them; that's why she, Cynthia and Yuma are left to worry when the others don't return on time.

[Arturro]

When is it ever said that Tabitha can sense the ghosts? It's made pretty clear during their encounter with Riful and Audrey's team that Tabitha can't sense them; that's why she, Cynthia and Yuma are left to worry when the others don't return on time.

My mistake. I was thinking about Cynthia, but wrote Tabitha. I've a tendency to swap names, in real life too :)
Chapter 83 page 6 Cynthia states that she will be able able to follow Clares trail, even if she lost Clares from sight. I asumed she was talking about yoki sensing.

[khryoleoz]

I've always really had an issue with the idea that Rosemary was the equal of the Abyssal Ones. Even from just the little we see of Rosemary during the fight, I have to believe that Riful could mop the floor with her.
You're saying you have to believe. I'd be curious about what compels that belief in a direct comparison between the two. Orsay nevertheless warns Teresa that the one who is about to awaken was THE number one before Teresa and that she should hurry. The warning suggests that the assignment should be taken seriously even by someone like Teresa, and that Rosemary should not be allowed to awaken.

Further, you've got to consider the time frame in which Rosemary was number one. We know it was just before Teresa, which means we know it was after Luciela. Further, judging by the fact that Raph's youki had not yet completely vanished when she met Teresa, the time gap between Luciela going berserk and Teresa becoming number one is probably only a handful of years.
And these handful of years must necessarily not be enough for Rosemary to have become the number one deservedly and legitimately? We don't even know the circumstances in which Riful became number one. We only know that she awakened before someone else stronger than she, like Teresa, came in and usurped the number one rank from her.

Next up, Luciela's awakening is described as a ruinous crisis for the Org., whereas the War in the North was described as being only nearly so - ergo, the Org. was in worse shape after Luciela than it was after Pieta. And yet, even 7 years after Pieta, the Org. has not recovered its manpower to the state is was before.
You're joking? They've upped their resources enough that they're taking the initiative in hunting ABs AND AOs.

What all of this is getting at is that Rosemary was number one only during the time that the Org. was recovering from Luciela. This, in combination with her fight with Teresa (and the fact that she was demoted without ever having even met Teresa) leads me to believe that she was number one by default - ie., she got her position merely by being the strongest warrior to survive Luciela's awakening, not by being actual candidate material for number one.
But this doesn't by logical necessity keep her inferior to a previous number one such as Riful, Luciela, or Isley. Even if she attained her rank by default through having been the strongest survivor of the holocaust that resulted in the loss of the Luciela and Raphaela pair, there's no way to conclude from that that Rosemary herself had not the capacity to develop her own powers so that she would inevitably merit the rank.

Instead, determining the purpose of the extra chapter, even if we find that Yagi merely intended to pander to Teresa fans, the value of developing Rosemary's character as having been the number one before Teresa bumped her down was to show that Teresa was indeed an extraordinary number one, not that Rosemary was so inadequate a number one that she should have been number two all along.

I'll preempt a possible response that cites Teresa remarking to Rosemary that it is because Rosemary doesn't have a clue that she is number 2. I would think that this is pretty clear that she is speaking in Teresanese conveying the idea, "it ain't that yo ass is weak biatch, but I'm just the $#!+ that ya ain't got nuttin'".

[chibamonster]

I'm with khryoleoz on the Rosemary issue, as he knows so well. The organization lost half of their claymores in Pieta. Then add to that Galatea left, Ophelia died, Miria went to Pieta, Kate (I think the girl in the north who died first +3 comrades), Flora and Jean (+3 comrades) all died too. That is all of their single digits except Alicia and Beth. Their lower numbers are still apparently shot with the current, but these claymores also are the first generation to ever actively hunt awakened beings. Even clarice is sent on missions. But even with all this damage the organization managed to create Miata in the last few years who if she was not crazy has the potential to be #1 over Alicia (I have no idea how). Time is not really that much of a factor for the organization. I don't know why. You'd think it would be. 7 years seems to be plenty of time, especially considering the high level of casualties we have seen in the active AB hunting. The org has also been allocating resources to the Abyssal feeders. From Clare's graduating class it seems they can pump out many more warriors than they need to hence their vicious graduation test. There shouldn't be a shortage of orphaned girls any time soon on the island.

How long was it after Luciella awakened that Teresa met Raphaela? Some time under of 7 years (as that is a solid estimate for how long a complete cloak can be developed, could be less but we don't know the numbers). How long after trainee Teresa met Raphaela did she get her symbol and become number one? How long was Teresa a Claymore until she met Rosemary? How long was Teresa a claymore period? Her handler was expecting her to slip up which indicates to me that she had been a warrior for a while. Rosemary had been brooding for some time.

I would say that #1's of different generations are different in power but Isley vs. Luciella were the most even match we have ever seen in Claymore. Luciella was carefully crafted by the organization for the soul link. Isley probably awakened quickly like the rest of the males. I'd say that power depended on a claymores training but Riful was the youngest #1 ever and the fastest one to awaken. Priscilla did not have much training either.

From the Luciella incident to the time Rosemary died could have been a very long time. Yagi told us Rosemary was number 1 because that is what he wanted us to know that she was a #1. Teresa never indicates that Rosemary was not stronger than every other claymore in her generation. She tells rosemary that she is weaker than herself, which she is, even as an awakened being. She says Rosemary had a fitting end for a former #1, never demeaning her power except in comparison to herself. Rosemary started crying when Teresa released her youki. Teresa then lied about Rosemary's awakening. Why? Because even being #1, the most powerful warrior in the organization, Teresa should not be able to kill an awakened Rosemary. Teresa lies and uses this as her defense to which her handler dismisses the topic even though the alternative option is believing that Teresa's cape was actually damaged by youma. The extra chapter was there to tell us "Teresa at 10% youki >>> Awakened #1, and she lied to the organization about her power for some reason even though she never lied otherwise!"

The reason I think most people have a difficult time thinking Rosemary was actually worthy of being a real number 1 is because it makes Teresa so insanely powerful.

[iLney]

@Chiba: you're wrong. The main problem with Rosemary is that she was a filler character :)

[chibamonster]

@Ilney: a filler character who was a former number 1 and deserved her post.

[iLney]

Usually a filler character has nothing to do with the main story, so you cannot apply the standard used for other characters on a filly.

[MisterJB]

Next up, Luciela's awakening is described as a ruinous crisis for the Org., whereas the War in the North was described as being only nearly so - ergo, the Org. was in worse shape after Luciela than it was after Pieta. And yet, even 7 years after Pieta, the Org. has not recovered its manpower to the state is was before.



Well, Luciela Awakened in the Heart of the Organization and Rimuto was probrably watching it personally. I suposse that all Claymore tried to stop Luciela from reaching him,


I think that is relevant the fact that Rosemary appeared on a ES.
IMO Yagi did that ES because after the arrival of the AOs to the story, the fans started wondering if Teresa could beat an AO and Yagi simply answered that question.

[chibamonster]

@Ilney: Usually filler (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=filler)is written by someone other than the author as well and it deviates from the authors story line in his manga. So if the author writes it and it is in his manga, is it actually filler?

Two muffins are in an oven. One of them turns to the other and says, "Man it is hot in here." The other muffin replies, "AAAH! A TALKING MUFFIN!"

[chibamonster]

It was about my wiev of yoki sensing, which is, I believe, a complex and difficult skill.
I also asumed that Galatea should be able to sense ghost, cause Cynthia is able to. If you are right, and Cynthia was just bluffing, my speculation has no solid base, and for Galatea sense ghosts are same as ordinary humans.



It's one posibility, but there is another. There is no "passive yoki system", just Claymores anatomy is inhuman. Hybridization turns their bodies, so warriors are faster, stronger, can regenerate etc., as well as they gains special abilities like yoki sensing. Miata "on pills" was able to kill multiple yoma and even an AB. Ghosts are cloaked cause they don't use yoki of any kind, they rely on their muscles and senses.
Yoki release is a "power up" - just like yours "active system". Yoki left some kind of "smell" which need a long time to completly disperse. Just remember first chapter, where Clara told about Raki: "This kid has scent of a beast". Raki is not a yoma, yet he had yoki signature.
My hypothesis has a weak point - it doesn't explain why Claymores eyes become normal after pills.

The reason I think there is some form of youki separate from the youki release and separate from the claymores physical anatomy is because the youki suppressant pills change the claymores eye color back to the color humans have. When Claymores take pills they cannot sense anything and their youki signature (almost) disappears.

The ghosts cannot be sensed yet their eyes are still silver and they can definitely sense youki.

[iLney]

Lol, muffins :heh:


So if the author writes it and it is in his manga, is it actually filler?

If a chapter is written by someone else AND the author happens to like it and bases his story on that chapter, is it a filler still?

[chibamonster]

@iLney: no.

[Aimless]

I normally don't go point by point, but there's a lot to respond to here, so I feel like I need to. Most of this is probably rehashing old arguments, but I'm too lazy to search and quote.

@khyr:
I'd be curious about what compels that belief in a direct comparison between the two.

Two things: her depicted size, and her depicted speed/strength in the fight.

Regarding the former, while it is not necessarily the case that the size of an AB is a measure of their strength (Priscilla and Rigardo are the obvious exceptions), there is nevertheless a correlation between the two. Of the AO's, the one whose characteristics most closely match Rosemary's was Luciela - indeed, Rosemary comes off almost as Luciela in miniature.

Secondly, while I agree that Teresa was immeasurably strong, and Rosemary was far enough outmatched that it's difficult to tell, nonetheless the power she demonstrated in that battle was not on par with the power we have seen the AO's demonstrate. Isley and Luciela literally decimated several square miles of terrain when they fought. Riful did something similar when she was trying to prevent Clare from escaping. Rosemary... smashed a few rocks.

The warning suggests that the assignment should be taken seriously even by someone like Teresa, and that Rosemary should not be allowed to awaken.

The Org. also consistently underestimated Teresa's strength. You can't have this both ways.

And these handful of years must necessarily not be enough for Rosemary to have become the number one deservedly and legitimately?

I am saying that the circumstances were such that she could have become number one undeservedly. Couple that with my reasoning above.

You're joking? They've upped their resources enough that they're taking the initiative in hunting ABs AND AOs.

This is immaterial. They had plenty of resources to actively hunt AB's prior to Pieta; they simply didn't. Further, regarding their hunt of the AO's, that's another matter entirely; the only warriors involved in that hunt are Alicia and Beth, who are special cases.

The Org. is understrength right now. They admit it themselves (look at the numbers they sent to help Dietrich).

... to show that Teresa was indeed an extraordinary number one, not that Rosemary was an inadequate number one.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

@chiba
The organization lost half of their claymores in Pieta.

And yet, even so, they referred to the event as a near miss. How much worse must things have been when Luciela awoke for them to assess things that way?

Heck, it's explicitly stated that not only did the Org. lose virtually every Claymore when Luciela awoke, they also lost almost all their trainees.

But even with all this damage the organization managed to create Miata in the last few years who if she was not crazy has the potential to be #1 over Alicia (I have no idea how).

This actually supports my argument. Miata is crazy-strong. She is also crazy-young. Seven years after the disaster, she's the Org's next candidate for number one (although it's more likely that the Org. is simply anticipating the need to dispose of Alicia once they're done with her, not because they think Miata is stronger).

There's a striking difference between what we see in Miata and Rosemary. On the one hand, we have a young, completely unstable future number one who obviously became a warrior only after Pieta. On the other hand, we have an old, veteran former number one.

Judging by Teresa's apparent age during Raph's flashback, I'd put a rough upper bound on the time between Luciela awakening and Teresa becoming a warrior at something around ten years - ie, not substantially more than the time difference between the current generation and Pieta. This is just barely enough time for the Org. to have raised a fresh number one from scratch: her name was Teresa.

Ergo, Rosemary was not a fresh number one; this implies that she was a survivor of the crisis. This, likewise, implies that she was no higher than number three, prior to the crisis.

(Well, granted, we don't know how much time passed between when Teresa became number one and when she fought Rosemary. It's possible that Rosemary spent most of her career as number two; this would explain away her seemingly veteran status. On the other hand, if this is the case, my argument still holds, because it means Rosemary only became number one at all by virtue of having finished her training sooner than Teresa. The argument that the Org. was depopulated at the time still holds.)

There's one more time limit we can put on things here. Raph, immediately prior to meeting Teresa, overhears how the Org. stole the Zemas twins. At the time of the Witch's Maw, when we first meet Alicia, she appears to be in her late teens. Ergo, this puts an upper limit on the time between Luciela awakening and Pieta at about 20 years (this number is also consistent with the idea that the Org. is about a century old).

Time is not really that much of a factor for the organization. I don't know why. You'd think it would be. 7 years seems to be plenty of time, especially considering the high level of casualties we have seen in the active AB hunting.

This, is a good point, and I'm not sure how to counter it. On the one hand, it appears to take years for the Org. to train a new warrior; they are all young girls when brought to the Org., but (except in special cases) they look at least early teens when they gain their number. That said, the apparent turnover rate among active warriors is atrociously high.

I'm not certain how to reconcile these facts, but I lean towards the idea that the turnover rate only appears to be high due to plot bias - ie., the death rate off screen is substantially lower than the death rate on screen.

Then again, I've had a quibble with the timescale and numbers of Claymore before - for instance, there are far too many youma for the human population on the continent to support. This is partially explained by the fact that the Org. is creating the youma (ie., it's not a true predator-prey relationship), but even so the number of youma is too high.

The reason I think most people have a difficult time thinking Rosemary was actually worthy of being a real number 1 is because it makes Teresa so insanely powerful.

I'm fully in the "Teresa was insanely powerful" camp. I suspect that she probably could have defeated any of the AO's without awakening, although I think awakened Priscilla was stronger than unawakened Teresa. (Uh oh, taboo! Everyone, please ignore that I just said that.)

However, just because I think Teresa could defeat an AO doesn't necessarily mean I think she did defeat one.

[chibamonster]

@Aimless: Near miss- #1 and 2 still function, the majority of the warriors are sacrificed to complete Alicia and Beth which they do successfully do and they have an Abyssal on their side :D. Miss - #1 awakens right in the center of the organization, wipes out half the trainees and many warriors and #2 her sister is too dangerous to trust so you strip her of her number. That is a bad situation. Not having anyone in the top echelons and having an Abyssal in the heart of the organization. That is why Teresa's death was also such a disaster. Teresa AND her replacement disappeared. :D. That is why Raphaela, who had been STRIPPED of her number because she was so dangerous, was allowed back into the organization.

And when have you seen AO's really fight in a way to set standards? Riful has never fought. We didn't see Luciella's fight with Isley after she awakened. Isley got ripped in half by Priscilla and when we saw him fight the Abyssal feeders he wasn't able to heal. The main thing we know from Luciella and Isley's discussion is that they destroy the land around them and, oh, Rosemary punches Teresa through a rock face.

Also how can you tell Teresa's age? Irene told us Claymores reach maturity but do not age. How can you tell any of their ages, especially Alicia and Beth? Are you basing it off of Yagi's developing art style? The fact of the matter is we do not know how long Raph has been away. Claymores don't age, Alicia and Beth included. We do not have a time line. WE DONT EVEN KNOW HOW MANY NUMBER ONES THERE HAVE BEEN. We have 6 on record; Isley, Riful, Luciella, Rosemary, Teresa, Alicia. If the time line is right in 100 years that is a little tough to work with because the males awakened quickly, Riful awakened insanely fast, so they were not #1 for long. How many have their been? Have any of them ever not deserved their rank? Not yet, unless rosemary is the one woman out. Priscilla was Teresa's replacement and she became something beyond the abyssals.

Also the organization is in no hurry to fill their ranks. Did Miria become number 5 and Raph number four when Ophelia died? Nope. They stayed with their numbers for some reason. The organization does not give high ranks easily and seems to wait to kill off a whole generation before they actually replenish. By the time Clare was in Pieta she probably would have been something like #30 just from warrior number atrophy that we see in the series. The organization is stingy with their numbers and does not hand them out like candy. They seem content with leaving slots empty until an appropriate being comes. I mean they gave Raphaela the number 5 when she came back! 5! Alicia and Beth were not completed until after Pieta! The organization is very stingy with numbers.

EDIT: As for Miata we know the organization took Alicia and Beth as small children, infants possibly (not too sure on that). We do not know what Miata's issue is but it has something to do with her mother. I would not be surprised if the org did something fiendish here as well. Clarice upon meeting Miata wonders what exactly the organization is.

EDIT2: The balance of power is not sheer numbers. It is in the top class, the #1's and the Abyssals. Alicia and Riful wiped out all of Isley's army without even breaking a sweat. Riful said, "No matter how many small fry he sent it didn't matter." The balance of power was held by 3. Priscilla rocked it, then Alicia balanced it, and then the Abyssal feeders tipped it over. Raciella is about to do something as well...

@MisterJB: I wish we had seen the fight so we could speculate about the answer.