Claymore Chapter 90

[Skyfall]

Welcome to the monthly discussion thread for Claymore, Chapter 90.

The thread was created before the chapter was published. Usually false spoilers start to appear early so (naturally) people always need a place to discuss them.

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Spoilers will not be policed in this thread, so if you haven't read the chapter yet, just stay out if you don't want to read spoilers.

[PureYoki]

Thanks for the thread, Skyfall. ;)

Here's the English translation (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=2308862&postcount=1172) for the spoilers.

A second recent spoiler is here (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=2314164&postcount=221).

[azurie]

hmmm interesting can't wait till it's up at my fav trans site =)

[AzoJason]

mhh... 100 times stronger and then defeated?... i hope its fake..

[PureYoki]

Well, I hope the spoiler is fake because:

1) Riful dies too fast, and without an on-screen fight. Watching a soccer game is exciting, just looking at the scores is not.

2) If even Alicia is no match for the DODs, and if MIB need something of Isley's strength to defeat them, then it means Isley is much stronger than Alicia. But Alicia defeats Riful rather comfortably, and it makes Riful a weakling compared to Isley and Luciela.

3) And if Alicia is useless against DODs, what was the goal of the soul-link, just to defeat Riful? How is Alicia designed for fighting Riful? Alicia is AO strength and she can fight every one.

[Newhope]

I always thought Riful was the strongest AO but 100 times is a bit to much the only thing I can think of is she condenseing her power into a smaller frame, although 100 time part makes me think the spoiler is fake.

I'am I the only one who thinks we haven't seen Alicia's full awakened form yet and all we've seen so far is her partial awakened?

[FragrantFlora]

Goshj poor Riful. It would have been better if she waited for Renee to awaken Raciella(if Renee was going to awaken her), and possibly if Raciella would listen to her.(which I personally doubt a bit)

[little_angel]

if Rufil dies in one chapter that will be a bad idea .. i hope the spoiler is fake ..

unless there is a reason ( a good reason ) ...

[evil_kenshin]

unless there is a reason ( a good reason ) ...

While I don't like the idea either, unfortunately the time of the Abyssal's is now over...Lucelia isn't really alive by definition nor conscious (doubt she will be the same being when she "Awakens") , Isley is dead and it looks like now Riful.

[Gattberserk]

The spoiler look pretty fake... Although I believe Alice is trained to battle against Riful (We saw Alice spying on Riful during her first appearance)


Riful become 100 times stronger and get defeatd straight? AF 20 of them all of sudden and are no match for Riful despite only 11 which can kills Isely...


So is Isley a weakling compared to Riful or Luciela

OR

Riful is a weakling compared to Isley and Luciela?...


The power of the 3 AO are suppose to be in balance... With minimal differences... Riful already commented that Isley underestimated their power and hence the fight with Luciela took longer than expected...


And regarding the Dragons... It really make me wonder though if Priscilla is still the strongest character now in Claymore... And how will Pris fare against them if the dragon are really as strong as what the spoiler depict them...

[Cyclone]

I also hope it's fake.

There is issue of claiming Riful is stronger in her human form. This goes against everything that Yagi has shown us to date. When any of the Abyssals - nay Awakened beings - has ever gotten serious, it's always in monster form (think Isley vs Luciella or Pricilla). Riful being the other way is almost inconcievable from a consistancy point of view.

Furthermore, I didn't get the impression from the last chapter that 20 ZACSs were sent in with Alicia and Beth, and the MiBs sent them only to be as guides and not to fight.

Several things just don't add up. Riful dying off screen in less than a chapter? wtf! The most puzzling thing is why are the ghosts all headed west from a story perspective. I mean the action will be finished long before they get there. Something about the whole thing just seems a bit odd to me.

:topicoff:
Now then... for the important and seemingly unavoidable part of this and every other thread. So let's get it out of the way. Pricilla vs Teresa - discuss... (just give us a thread for it already!).

[Magin]

Well, just basing off what you guys are saying and the spoilers... it seems to me like either this manga is nearing it's end (with the AOs getting picked off one by one per chapter), or we're going to be heading in a new direction that deals with the Organization and their dark secrets more

[Korinov]

Smells fake from a long distance... Riful 100 times stronger? And killed in just one chapter? OMG WTF.

Really, spoilers this week are being quite dissapointing, I just read the Bleach one and almost made me puke. Hope they're all fakes.

[Magin]

depends on the source... half the time, the bleakest spoilers are the real ones

[evil_kenshin]

Smells fake from a long distance... Riful 100 times stronger? And killed in just one chapter? OMG WTF.

Really, spoilers this week are being quite dissapointing, I just read the Bleach one and almost made me puke. Hope they're all fakes.

unfortunately its april the 1st lol, expect alot of joke spoilers.

[Cyclone]

I wouldn't say it's coming to an end any faster or anything. It's more that the Abyssals have out lived a lot of their usefulness in the story.

Isley's purpose was to go south, and as a side effect get the ghosts to leave the organization. Riful's seems to be awaken Raciella and to have acted as stalemate power for Isley until Pricilla came along. With her story roles ending, I wouldn't be surprised to see be the next to go.

There is plenty that can happen yet.

[Yorae_paladin1]

maybe riful might fake her death

[yezhanquan]

There is plenty that can happen yet.

The Lord help us with that one. I don't really wish to wait for another 8 years to see a manga series end.

[Newhope]

I also hope it's fake.

There is issue of claiming Riful is stronger in her human form. This goes against everything that Yagi has shown us to date. When any of the Abyssals - nay Awakened beings - has ever gotten serious, it's always in monster form (think Isley vs Luciella or Pricilla). Riful being the other way is almost inconcievable from a consistancy point of view.

Furthermore, I didn't get the impression from the last chapter that 20 ZACSs were sent in with Alicia and Beth, and the MiBs sent them only to be as guides and not to fight.

Several things just don't add up. Riful dying off screen in less than a chapter? wtf! The most puzzling thing is why are the ghosts all headed west from a story perspective. I mean the action will be finished long before they get there. Something about the whole thing just seems a bit odd to me.

:topicoff:
Now then... for the important and seemingly unavoidable part of this and every other thread. So let's get it out of the way. Pricilla vs Teresa - discuss... (just give us a thread for it already!).

From what I can tell she's still useing her awakened form she's just modified it so it's about human size.

And yes Riful should destory a fresh batch of ZACS with ease.

[Negativedark]

Weaving into a humanoid form... Didn't Agatha do the same thing?

[Bikerider]

What's so wrong about fake spoilers anyways ?? They're fun to read. The more outlandish, the better.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

I wouldn't be surprised if Riful is able to defeat the ZACS with ease, her ribbons are more effective for decimating a lot of weaker opponents compared to what Isley had. The spoiler made it sound -- to me -- that she was going to maybe form many smaller versions of herself connected to the ribbon to fight the zacs?

Dunno, Riful has to die, but I think the timing is bad in the spoiler. The spoiler makes things seem just so rushed. There was a lot setup here. Clare should see Riful one more time, because Riful is pissed at her. Riful should get the chance to betray and get killed by Raciella. The org should pay for their arrogance and shortsightedness. This spoiler kills these and a ton of other possibilities and makes it seem that Yagi is under pressure just to end this Manga. I've seen that before, where you have a nice well thought out story going and then they rush the ending in the manga. It usually happens when the manga isn't that popular.

[FragrantFlora]

An author should love what he writes and not give in to pressure easily. Let's pray Riful doesn't die. It's too soon. :(

[Stream]

What's so wrong about fake spoilers anyways ?? They're fun to read. The more outlandish, the better.
Good, because I predict a lot of fake spoilers tomorrow.

EDIT: Those of you looking for the spoiler translation... look here (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=79892&page=12#post2314164).

[Ryuken]

Keep em coming, and I don't think that first spoiler is entirely true. Maybe some of it.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Pfft well i'm only speculating but if this is Clare's story thrown back at her then she was clearly betrayed, as Miria was to the 6 armed AB, and if the story was leaked by Rubul, then it becomes more apparent why Clare wanted to attack him when he approached her with Raphealla. That is to say, Raphealla's entrance didn't spur Clare into drawing her claymore but Rubul's did.

So what would make Clare want to kill Rubul between the beginning of Witch's maw and the beginning of the war in the north? It wasn't the event of the slashers because she still reported to Rubul afterwards. If it was just to do with being a deserter why didn't she draw her claymore on Raphealla's approach?

Anyhow Clare was at the very least shown to be very sceptical of Rubul's suggestions, believing they would get her killed, so there's no telling why she would go anywhere near Riful.

It's quite obvious:

1) Clare tried to behave between the Slasher's Arc and the Endless Gravestones and still got sent on another suicide mission.
2) The last setup was so blatant that Clare can drop all pretenses of being the good Claymore and never plan on returning to the org again, because they would suspect that she suspects she knows that they've been trying to kill her after that one.
3) Rubel almost got Raki killed.

[yezhanquan]

The chessmaster is still moving the pieces without letting anyone know who it really is.

[Vinak]

It's quite obvious:
3) Rubel almost got Raki killed.

Rubel is my new favorite character :D

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Rubel is my new favorite character :D

Post of the day. :D

[Squawks]

What's so wrong about fake spoilers anyways ?? They're fun to read. The more outlandish, the better.Yeah but this ain't no Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann.

[Sleepy Speculator]

It may be that Clare was p*ssed at a blatant suicide mission, but the problem is she wasn't that angry with the org, because Raphealla only got surprise out of Clare not a claymore drawn on her. Rubul on the other hand prompts Clare to draw her sword straight off the bat, which implies it's very personal and not anything to do with the org in general.

Also the Raki comments came after Clare had drawn her claymore and resulted in Clare pretty much believing that Rubul was responsible for it.

[irvinethearcher]

It usually happens when the manga isn't that popular.
Is that the case with claymore? I mean claymore should be quite popular i think, i hope.
In OM it has rank 16.

[Newhope]

Is that the case with claymore? I mean claymore should be quite popular i think, i hope.
In OM it has rank 16.

Claymore's more popular in China and the west than Japan and thats where it matters.

[RocktheStar]

The Claymore manga is quite popular in Japan, each volume sells more than 150,000 copies.
Other mangas have been going on for longer than Claymore and only sell a fraction of Claymore, so no fear :)

[Gangsta Spanksta]

It may be that Clare was p*ssed at a blatant suicide mission, but the problem is she wasn't that angry with the org, because Raphealla only got surprise out of Clare not a claymore drawn on her. Rubul on the other hand prompts Clare to draw her sword straight off the bat, which implies it's very personal and not anything to do with the org in general.

Also the Raki comments came after Clare had drawn her claymore and resulted in Clare pretty much believing that Rubul was responsible for it.

Rubel obviously set her up, twice. Raph is a fellow sister who may not have known what was going on and following orders, from Clare's perspective. I really don't see anything at all strange with Clare's reaction. This is somewhat supported when her and rubel are reunited and she practically tells her team mates why he is not to be trusted.

Is that the case with claymore? I mean claymore should be quite popular i think, i hope.
In OM it has rank 16.

I didn't say it was the case here. I was saying that I have seen quite a few mangas that are good story wise, all the sudden get a rushed ending, many times because of popularity. I was just saying that, that spoiler would make it feel like things are rushed, which may not be the case. We don't even know if the spoiler is true; it most likely is not. So lets not jump the gun. :D

[MisterJB]

Well, I hope the spoiler is fake because:

1) Riful dies too fast, and without an on-screen fight. Watching a soccer game is exciting, just looking at the scores is not.

2) If even Alicia is no match for the DODs, and if MIB need something of Isley's strength to defeat them, then it means Isley is much stronger than Alicia. But Alicia defeats Riful rather comfortably, and it makes Riful a weakling compared to Isley and Luciela.

3) And if Alicia is useless against DODs, what was the goal of the soul-link, just to defeat Riful? How is Alicia designed for fighting Riful? Alicia is AO strength and she can fight every one.

We always had the idea that Riful is stronger than Luciela but Riful could be like an inferior Abyssal compared to them.

After all, Isley didn't go all out against Luciela (he didn't use the claymore like sword). But still, I would say that Riful and Luciela are on the same level of the stregth while Isley should be a little stronger

Luciela and Riful should be on the same level because Renne can't say if Raciella is stronger than Riful.
And seeing as Isley was stronger than Luciela, it's normal that he is stronger than Riful.
The only problem in this equation is Alicia...

[Newhope]

I think Riful's stronger than Isley was, I think he would have lost to Luciela if Priscilla wasn't there.

[MisterJB]

I think Riful's stronger than Isley was, I think he would have lost to Luciela if Priscilla wasn't there.

Priscilla didn't do anything to Luciela. Why do you think that?

[Newhope]

Priscilla didn't do anything to Luciela. Why do you think that?

Same rason Riful backed off she knew she'd lose to her.

[MisterJB]

Same rason Riful backed off she knew she'd lose to her.

Luciela only complained about Isley to Raphaela. She didn't say anything about Priscilla

It's true that Isley seemed to be more wounded but Luciela lost her two tails while Isley stilld had all of his members attached to him

[Newhope]

Luciela only complained about Isley to Raphaela. She didn't say anything about Priscilla

No she didn't but you just had to look at the state Luciela and Isley where inafter the the fight to see Luciela had the upper hand in the fight. So why did she run and was it just a coincidence that Priscilla was with him when Riful shows up a few minutes after the fight?

EDIT: Isley lost his left arm in the fight.

[little_angel]

we cant say anything at the moment ...

where is the chapter ??

[MisterJB]

No she didn't but you just had to look at the state Luciela and Isley where inafter the the fight to see Luciela had the upper hand in the fight. So why did she run and was it just a coincidence that Priscilla was with him when Riful shows up a few minutes after the fight?

I guess you answered while I was editing.


At any rate, if Isley was intending to have Priscilla saving him, he could have used her since the beginning. I think that Priss only went after the fight was over just in case Riful decided to finish Isley off

Also, Helen said that Isley had a stronger Yoki.

[MisterJB]

EDIT: Isley lost his left arm in the fight.

No, he didn't.
http://i40.tinypic.com/2rmqcn6.jpg

[PureYoki]

Luciela and Riful should be on the same level because Renne can't say if Raciella is stronger than Riful.

IMO Luciela's strength is not equal to Raciella's, Raciella is much stronger.

Renee couldn't tell which one was stronger because I think she didn't know the full extent of Riful's and Raciella's powers. She couldn't trace Riful's hidden yoki, Riful would have noticed it and Raciella dismissed Renee's existence from her mind before Renee was able to grasp her full potential.

[PureYoki]

No she didn't but you just had to look at the state Luciela and Isley where inafter the the fight to see Luciela had the upper hand in the fight. So why did she run and was it just a coincidence that Priscilla was with him when Riful shows up a few minutes after the fight?

Priscilla was NOT there when Luciela left. When Luciela met Rafaela, she suggested Rafaela to awaken and defeat Isley in his weakened state, she would have never said that if she knew Priscilla was with Isley.

Also Luciela didn't mention Priscilla when she was running away, she just blamed Isley for her loss.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

IMO Luciela's strength is not equal to Raciella's, Raciella is much stronger.

Renee couldn't tell which one was stronger because I think she didn't know the full extent of Riful's and Raciella's powers. She couldn't trace Riful's hidden yoki, Riful would have noticed it and Raciella dismissed Renee's existence from her mind before Renee was able to grasp her full potential.

That pretty much is my view too. Also whlen Helen and Deneve observed riful, she was still hiding her power. When they ran into Isley, he was regenerating himself after a battle, and releasing excessive amounts of Yoki. In fact, you could say that Riful always hides her true strength. Remeber the Witch's Maw? Riful was hiding her true strength even back then, and Galatea had to tell Clare what to look for to see it. So we don't really know how Riful compares. We have what Deneve and Helen said about the comparison, but then they're not known as Yoki readers and Riful had already tricked #3 and #5 with her aura.

[MisterJB]

That pretty much is my view too. Also whlen Helen and Deneve observed riful, she was still hiding her power. When they ran into Isley, he was regenerating himself after a battle, and releasing excessive amounts of Yoki. In fact, you could say that Riful always hides her true strength. Remeber the Witch's Maw? Riful was hiding her true strength even back then, and Galatea had to tell Clare what to look for to see it. So we don't really know how Riful compares. We have what Deneve and Helen said about the comparison, but then they're not known as Yoki readers and Riful had already tricked #3 and #5 with her aura.

Even so, human form Isley was stronger than Abyssal form Riful. That's gotta mean something

[chibamonster]

Isley being more powerful than Riful by Helen and Deneve's standards would mean a lot of Helen or Deneve were skilled youki sensors and Riful didn't specialize in hiding her power to the point that Galatea praised her ability. We have never seen Riful actually fight, she avoids it like crazy.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Even so, human form Isley was stronger than Abyssal form Riful. That's gotta mean something

It's a matter of perception or mis-perception. First off, what rule says that an Abyssal has to use less yoki or has less yoki when in human form? Secondly, Isley was regenerating, and I think we found out last chapter that regeneration requires a lot more yoki than previously thought. So basically, Isley is lit up like a candle releasing Yoki, while Riful is purposefully trying to keep from bleeding any off. So to an non-expert yoki reader they could get the wrong idea. Again, the new generation thought she was a lot weaker than she was because they didn't know how to read her right. If isley really did gain a giant leap of in yoki from human form to abyssal form, and his human form has more yoki than riful then he wouldn't of needed Priscilla.

[PureYoki]

I also would like to add that Helen compared Riful with a weakened Isley. I can't imagine Isley in his weak state is still stronger than Riful. Although the current spoilers confirm it and suggest that Riful is a weakling who is inferior to Alicia who is inferior to Isley, it doesn't make sense. Let's hope they are fake.

[PureYoki]

First off, what rule says that an Abyssal has to use less yoki or has less yoki when in human form?

I think it's safe to assume that they can/do release more yoki when they are in their AB forms. Claymores' eyes, faces and bodies change when they release more yoki. Riful had a hard time hiding her real strength in her AB form but Renee and Clare barely sensed her in her human form.

[MisterJB]

I also would like to add that Helen compared Riful with a weakened Isley. I can't imagine Isley in his weak state is still stronger than Riful. Although the current spoilers confirm it and suggest that Riful is a weakling who is inferior to Alicia who is inferior to Isley, it doesn't make sense. Let's hope they are fake.

I acutally hope that part is true but I hope that Riful doesn't die in one chapter.

Anyway, didn't say that Riful is a weakling. But just as the AFs that killed Isley were designed (learned) to fight him, so Alicia was designed to kill Riful. I don't think Alicia would have been able to kill Isley, certainly wound him but her strength was designed based on Riful's power, not Isley's.

And I think it would have been almost impossible for the AFs to defeat Luciela.

They bite her?

She bites them back!

[Sephiroth_760]

can someone show me a link where I can read chapter 90?

[Gangsta Spanksta]

I also would like to add that Helen compared Riful with a weakened Isley. I can't imagine Isley in his weak state is still stronger than Riful. Although the current spoilers confirm it and suggest that Riful is a weakling who is inferior to Alicia who is inferior to Isley, it doesn't make sense. Let's hope they are fake.

Nah, you got it all wrong. What Helen and Deneve were comparing was not a healthy Riful versus a weakened Isley. No, what they were comparing was the yoki amount they could sense from Riful versus that of what they could sense of Isley. That is the whole thing: they thought that Isley in his weakened state was stronger than Riful in her non-weakened state. In fact, they didn't know Isley was weakened until after they got the whole story from Dietrich. Also, it would make sense for a weakened Isley to release more yoki -- brightening the light bulb -- when regenerating himself from a major battle, compared to Riful who naturally hides her yoki and was just playing around with Claymores. Again Helen + Deneve != Galatea. They couldn't even tell that Isley was hurt and regenerating himself by sensing yoki. Galatea can even sense the deep internal conflict in Clare. I think that Helen and Deneve are really bad at Yoki sensing ;)

I think it's safe to assume that they can/do release more yoki when they are in their AB forms. Claymores' eyes, faces and bodies change when they release more yoki. Riful had a hard time hiding her real strength in her AB form but Renee and Clare barely sensed her in her human form.

It's note safe at all to assume. Take a lesson from Descartes-sama. ;) Don't assume anything. We can speculate that there is a higher minimum amount of yoki release in Awakened form versus human form. That makes sense but is not absolute. Assuming or even speculating that the upper limits of the forms are different requires more support, IMO. In fact, assuming that Isley or Riful were anywhere near the upper limits in this case is questionable.

[MonsieurRosseau]

can someone show me a link where I can read chapter 90?

It's not out yet, ducky. We're speculating.

[Negativedark]

It's early, but here's my gag spoiler for April Fools. Absolutly untrue. For best fun, I've run it back and forth through Google Translate.

Here it is after bieng put into Japanese.
姉妹夕樹を爆発させて目覚めるされています。ルネ何とか生き延びる。新しいフォームをRifulは何ですが 、 "要求する考えは？ " 2つの赤ちゃんです。

深海伝説の死亡を開始。 1つの黒がかわいい（萌言及しているpoisioneの男性） 。となりのシンシアくしゃみ。黒でもう1人は、アリシア場合は、 40代で自殺したクレイモアに直面できるようにプログラムされている言及している。クレアとユマはくしゃみ 。

ディートリッヒ章熱い場合は、革製の服を得ることができる彼女は求めているの終わりです。

And then back into english.

Are awake in a burst of evening sister tree. Rene barely survive. Riful is a new form, "the request is considered to be" two babies.

Start the death of the legendary deep-sea. A cute black one (the man mentioned poisione Moe). Cynthia next sneeze. The other one is black, when Alicia, 40 noted that it is programmed to be faced with a suicide in their thirties Claymore. Clare and Yuma is sneezing.

If Chapter Dietrich hot, she can get a leather garment is the end of seeking.

And what I actually wrote...
The sisters are awakened in a burst of Yoki. Renee somehow survives. Riful sees the new form and asks "What is This?" There are two babies.

The Abyssal Eaters begin dying. One of the men in black mentions that they are poisione by cute (Moe). Nearby Cynthia sneezes. The other man in black mentions that Alicia is programmed to allow herself to be killed if confronted by a Claymore in the forties. Claire and Yuma both sneeze.

End of the Chapter is Dietrich asking if she can get a hot leather outfit.

......... I'm just going to have to run random stuff through the translator now for fun.
私は通訳を介して楽しくするためにランダムなものを実行する必要がありそうです。
I would need to run the random fun to through a translator.

[MonsieurRosseau]

In fact, they didn't know Isley was weakened until after they got the whole story from Dietrich. Also, it would make sense for a weakened Isley to release more yoki -- brightening the light bulb -- when regenerating himself from a major battle, compared to Riful who naturally hides her yoki and was just playing around with Claymores. Again Helen + Deneve != Galatea. They couldn't even tell that Isley was hurt and regenerating himself by sensing yoki. Galatea can even sense the deep internal conflict in Clare. I think that Helen and Deneve are really bad at Yoki sensing ;)


At least, compared to Galatea. Compared to most of the Claymore, not so much.

[Korinov]

Please guys, do not start discussing whether Isley was 100 times stronger than Riful or not, since it looks that almost every spoiler that came up today was a huge f-a-k-e. Remember, this is April's fools! We've got even an One Piece spoiler where Monkey D. Luffy was turned into a chick :D

Personally, until I see pics of the chapter, I won't believe any spoiler at all.

[PureYoki]

Again Helen + Deneve != Galatea. They couldn't even tell that Isley was hurt and regenerating himself by sensing yoki. Galatea can even sense the deep internal conflict in Clare. I think that Helen and Deneve are really bad at Yoki sensing ;)

Well, it's true that Helen sucks at sensing but I believe Isley of seven years ago would be able to emit much more yoki. He has weakened considerably over years, this is what I meant.

Take a lesson from Descartes-sama. ;) Don't assume anything.

I wonder how Descartes studied math without assuming anything. :D

We can speculate that there is a higher minimum amount of yoki release in Awakened form versus human form. That makes sense but is not absolute. Assuming or even speculating that the upper limits of the forms are different requires more support, IMO.

Well, I think we have enough evidence. For example, consider the power of Isley's arrows in human and awakened form: They were much more effective in his AB form. Claymores inevitably transform when they use more and more yoki. Anyway, I don't claim this is a fact, it's just a strong possibility. Nothing is absolute in Claymore, rules tend to change.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

第90 -ティーRifulで

前編：

Rifulは西の方へ向かう私たちは再び、クレアのグループに参加する。

ユマ発汗は、以下の通りですクレアがクレアMiria少女を見に割り当てられます。

ユマ： "グ-みんな、このことを確認しているが良いですか？私は深海の1つですかが生存の見込みがないことを意味します 。 "
シンシア： "ああ口止め、私たちは皆死んで行くことを確認、それが正当な理由のためだ。 Raphaelaのルネと考えてください。 "
クレア： "なぜ私Miria 、これらの厄介な人を割り当てるのか？ "
シンシア： " 、黄色のレンガ道、次は、次の次の黄色のレンガの道に従ってください- "
クレア： "を停止すること！ "

クレアグループ像を最終的にはテレサとクレアRifulの城の近くの町に到着する。

クレア：この場所はだらしない私はおさげ髪の少女に会ったと思う前にログインしてください。彼女は嫌な少年 だった。ラキは、彼女とのチャンスがあることを考慮し、私は再び彼女を参照してください希望する必要はあり ません。

ユマ：おい、ではないが、その双子のせむしdemonessの像？

シンシア：他人の話をするような方法ではいいことではない。

一方、ヘレンDeneveと戻る。

ディートリッヒ：では、あなたは、このクレアの人よりは、両方を担当していますか？

ヘレン：ええと、確かそう。

Deneve ：ウィルしゃべり続けるし、最大2つの停止急い？

パート2で継続される。

Article 90 - Tea in Riful

First part:

Riful we head towards the west again, to participate in the creatine group.

Yuma sweating, are: Claire Claire Miria are assigned to watch the girls.

Yuma: "group - all, what good is it to make sure that this is a deep one and I mean that there is no chance of survival if it is."
Cynthia: "Oh gag, sure that we all go dead, it's a legitimate reason for it. Raphaela please consider and Rene."
Claire: "Why I Miria, or assign them a nuisance?"
Cynthia: ", the yellow brick road, but, please follow the yellow brick road of the following: -"
Claire: "Stop!"

The final image is Clare Clare and Teresa Riful groups to arrive in town near the castle.

Claire: This is where I'm sloppy, please log in before I met the girl with pigtails. She was a bad boy. Raki, it should have a chance with her, I want you to please see her again.

Yuma: Hey, is not the hunchback of the twin image of the demoness?

Cynthia: a way to talk to other people is not good.

Meanwhile, Helen and Deneve back.

Dietrich: So you, the people of Clare, is responsible for both?

Helen: Well, certainly not.

Deneve: Will to keep talking up to two stops of a hurry?

Be continued in Part 2.
Chapter 90 -- Tea with Riful

Part1:

We once again join Clare's group, as they head west towards Riful.

Yuma is sweating, following Clare and the girl assigned to watch Clare by Miria.

Yuma: "Gu-- Guys, are you sure this is a good? I mean an Abyssal One? There is no chance of survival."
Cynthia: "Oh hush, sure we are all going to die, but it is for a good cause. Think of Renee and Raphaela."
Clare: "Why does Miria assign me these bothersome people?"
Cynthia: "Follow the yellow brick road, follow the yellow brick road, follow, follow--"
Clare: "Will you stop that!"

Clare group finally arrives to the Teresa and Clare statue in the town near Riful's castle.

Clare: To think that this is where I met that scruffy little girl with the pigtails log ago. Boy was she obnoxious. Thinking that she could have a chance with Raki. I hope I never have to see her again.

Yuma: Hey, isn't that, that statue of the twin hunchback demoness?

Cynthia: It's not nice to speak of others in such a way.

Meanwhile, back with Deneve and Helen.

Dietrich: So, you are sure that this Clare person is more responsible than the both of you?

Helen: Um, yeah sure.

Deneve: Will you two stop yapping and hurry up?

to be continued in part 2.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Well, I think we have enough evidence. For example, consider the power of Isley's arrows in human and awakened form: They were much more effective in his AB form. Claymores inevitably transform when they use more and more yoki. Anyway, I don't claim this is a fact, it's just a strong possibility. Nothing is absolute in Claymore, rules tend to change.

Nobody said Isley doesn't have more power in Abyssal form, or more precisely more powerful attacks. But we don't know if Isley can release more yoki in abyssal form versus in human form. In fact, it could be logical to speculate that Isley can release more energy in human form than abyssal form, assuming that he has the same energy in both forms since energy is constant, and that the abyssal form uses more energy than the human form to maintain, meaning that since the human form uses less energy to maintain it could release more yoki. That of course is assuming that, that level of yoki release is not harmful to the human form. :P That's a lot of assuming either way. :D

[KingOfWorlds]

I don't think Awakened Beings are necessarily stronger in human form or awakened form. I think the quality of the Yoki is different depending on the form. I think when a Awakened is in human form their Yoki is more dense, which can make it seem greater when it isn't. Because think of huge the AO are in their Awakened Forms, then how small they are in human form, it's like cramming something huge into something small. So while it may seem like there's a difference it really isn't... the density of the Yoki just gives it that impression, hopefully y'all get what i'm saying.

[Negativedark]

Running fake spoilers through Googlefish is fun.

[MisterJB]

I don't think Awakened Beings are necessarily stronger in human form or awakened form. I think the quality of the Yoki is different depending on the form. I think when a Awakened is in human form their Yoki is more dense, which can make it seem greater when it isn't. Because think of huge the AO are in their Awakened Forms, then how small they are in human form, it's like cramming something huge into something small. So while it may seem like there's a difference it really isn't... the density of the Yoki just gives it that impression, hopefully y'all get what i'm saying.

Not really, actually. Sure, Riful is a loli but Isley and Luciela are about the same size as any normal human

[KingOfWorlds]

Not really, actually. Sure, Riful is a loli but Isley and Luciela are about the same size as any normal human

Doesn't matter.
All 3 are huge, even if some are bigger then the other.
To go from that to a small human, can cause the Yoki to be dense.
That was my point.. for those who were debating AO are stronger in human or awaken form...
I just tossed out a possible theory

[MisterJB]

Doesn't matter.
All 3 are huge, even if some are bigger then the other.
To go from that to a small human, can cause the Yoki to be dense.
That was my point.. for those who were debating AO are stronger in human or awaken form...
I just tossed out a possible theory


But AB are definitively stronger on AB form. If not, why would Isley need to turn into Silver Centaur to face the AFs? Or why would Dauf turn into Purple Titan to kill Awakened Katea (and yes I know he wasn't fully turned but Katea was a weakling anyway)?

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Your strength in Awakened form being stronger than your strength in Human form does not necessarily mean that there is an increase in yoki in either form. In fact, if there were then E=MC^2 is not true in the claymore world -- and it doesn't need to be. In fact, if E=MC^2 is true, then the increase in mass would mean a decrease in Energy (Yoki). But anyway, just because one form is more efficient in combat than another form, only means that that form uses more energy, not that you have less energy in the other form.

[PureYoki]

Nobody said Isley doesn't have more power in Abyssal form, or more precisely more powerful attacks.

This is the point, more powerful attacks need more yoki.

But we don't know if Isley can release more yoki in abyssal form versus in human form. In fact, it could be logical to speculate that Isley can release more energy in human form than abyssal form, assuming that he has the same energy in both forms since energy is constant, and that the abyssal form uses more energy than the human form to maintain, meaning that since the human form uses less energy to maintain it could release more yoki.

Here's an analogy: In your AB form, your power (=the amount of energy expended for a given unit of time) increases. So you can spend and thus deplete yoki(=energy) faster when you're in your AB form. In your human form, you can't/don't spend your yoki that fast but you don't have powerful attacks. ;)

[Fenrir_valindri]

For all we know none of that is true, awakened beings could merely let out an immense amount of Yoki to maintain their awakened form to increase their attack power, thus the reason ABs are forced into their human (low Yoki cost) form when they are exhausted. If turning into an AB increased Yoki there would be no reason for them to lose that form from lack of Yoki.

[PureYoki]

Your strength in Awakened form being stronger than your strength in Human form does not necessarily mean that there is an increase in yoki in either form.

The amount of energy stored in an AB is constant. It's just that they use yoki much faster in their AB form and thus can't keep this form when the battery is almost dead. :D

In fact, if there were then E=MC^2 is not true in the claymore world -- and it doesn't need to be. In fact, if E=MC^2 is true, then the increase in mass would mean a decrease in Energy (Yoki). But anyway, just because one form is more efficient in combat than another form, only means that that form uses more energy, not that you have less energy in the other form.

I now see where the problem is. Other claymores sense yoki flow rate, this is what we are talking about. We (at least I) don't say they have less energy in their human form, it's just irrelevant to the discussion.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Anyway, as many on here have pointed out in the past, Claymore does not need to be based by the rules of our world, in particularly physics. I like to speculate assuming that it is. I just think that Awakened beings can convert energy into mass and back again. For example, everytime Dauff makes a rod and shoots it thats energy turned into mass. Or if Isley changes from human form to Awakened form that again would be energy to mass. The other possibility would be magic, but I like that less in this particular story. Anyway, for E=MC^2 to be true, then that means that Isley has more yoki in human form, because to be in abyssal form he would've had to convert some of it into mass. Then there is the maintenance energy he has to use to keep that form. The Abyssal form is just his combat form, and things are more efficient like the missiles ;) Energy or yoki is also not constant because the ABs have to feed in order to refill their reserves.

[khryoleoz]

In fact, if E=MC^2 is true, then the increase in mass would mean a decrease in Energy (Yoki).
What? Where do you get this? That's saying 1/e=mc^2.

[PureYoki]

Anyway, for E=MC^2 to be true, then that means that Isley has more yoki in human form, because to be in abyssal form he would've had to convert some of it into mass. Then there is the maintenance energy he has to use to keep that form. The Abyssal form is just his combat form, and things are more efficient like the missiles ;)

Even if they spend some energy for transformation, I don't think it's that much. Anyway, it's not important, when Helen and Deneve sensed Isley, they sensed the yoki Isley was emitting, they didn't sense the remaining yoki in Isley's reserves. I believe since Isley was low on yoki, he didn't emit yoki as he used to and this is why his regeneration took more time. Long story short, IMO AB form Isley emits more yoki than human form Isley and full power Isley emits more yoki than a weakened Isley during regeneration.

I don't know we agree or disagree, it looks like we express the same thing in different words. :)

Energy or yoki is also not constant because the ABs have to feed in order to refill their reserves.

I mean constant as in a rechargeable battery with infinite charge cycles.

[revan5]

What? Where do you get this? That's saying 1/e=mc^2.

No wait a minute. e=mc^2 is a VERY famous physics equation developed by none other than Albert Einstein, the guy famous for the theory of relativity and the concept of space/time (both of which, as it turned out, proved true once we entered the space race). What he's saying is, that in order to create mass, a certain amount of energy needs to be expended. Essentially this means that energy and mass are simply the same thing, only in two different forms.

Think of when you use a gallon of gasoline. Its mass gets converted into kinetic, electrical and thermal energy. A car engine actually only uses about 15-20 percent of the energy a gallon of gas is capable of generating to move your car. Part of Einstein's theory was that energy/mass are NOT destructible, but simply change forms. In other words, the energy the car didn't use to move is still there, it was just absorbed into the atmosphere.

What he's saying is, that for Isley to create the mass of his Awakened body, he MUST (according to any physicist) expend a massive amount of energy to convert his huge reservoirs of energy into mass. What this means is that it literally costs him energy to create that mass, and thus, voila, he possesses less energy in his Awakened form (paradoxical I know, but bear with me) because he used so much up creating its mass.

That enlarged mass also explains why it is so hard for Abyssal Ones to maintain their fighting for long against an opponent of equal stature. Besides possible battle wounds, their energy is being used up faster, because their bodies are much larger (and the more mass one has, the more energy one must use to move it). This explains, perfectly in my opinion, why Luciella was unable to maintain her Awakened form fighting Isley. She simply ran out of energy and could not maintain the energy costly fighting mass she had put on.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

@khryoleoz

You're thinking of this formula in the wrong way. Duaff has M0 and E0 initially. The formula has nothing to do with the mass that he already has. If Dauff create an rod then you can measure the mass of the rod. then you can figure out his new energy level by Ecurrent = E0 - Eloss, where Eloss = MrodC^2

E=mc²
And the meaning of this equation?
The energy(e) of a mass to energy conversion equals the mass(m) that was converted multiplied by the speed of light(c) squared.
If we choose mass in kilograms and the speed of light in meters per second, then the answer will be in Joules.

http://www.1728.com/einstein.htm

Surely, you don't think that if Dauff creates a Rod that he gains Energy.

[LONEWOLF13]

I don't think Awakened Beings are necessarily stronger in human form or awakened form. I think the quality of the Yoki is different depending on the form. I think when a Awakened is in human form their Yoki is more dense, which can make it seem greater when it isn't. Because think of huge the AO are in their Awakened Forms, then how small they are in human form, it's like cramming something huge into something small. So while it may seem like there's a difference it really isn't... the density of the Yoki just gives it that impression, hopefully y'all get what i'm saying.

i was thinking a bit of the same thing

I think size doesint always matter look at rigardo so far as i know he wasint biggest
monster that i had seen and yet he was tough as nails and olso i think its not just power that matters but olso the skill and abillitys that these monsters posess.

[revan5]

You're thinking of this formula in the wrong way. Duaff has M0 and E0 initially. The formula has nothing to do with the mass that he already has. If Dauff create an rod then you can measure the mass of the rod. then you can figure out his new energy level by Ecurrent = E0 - Eloss, where Eloss = MrodC^2

E=mc²
And the meaning of this equation?
The energy(e) of a mass to energy conversion equals the mass(m) that was converted multiplied by the speed of light(c) squared.
If we choose mass in kilograms and the speed of light in meters per second, then the answer will be in Joules.

http://www.1728.com/einstein.htm

Surely, you don't think that if Dauff creates a Rod that he gains Energy.

Ah hah, I think I just figured out how to apply the equation to your little question. It does in fact apply more than I thought.

The equation is saying that the total energy of a mass in motion can be measured by the equation you suggested. What Dauf is doing is taking energy, converting it into mass, and then adding his own energy to push the resulting mass along at high velocity. E=mc^2, while it would not provide you how much energy it would take to create that mass, would tell you how much energy total the object possessed once in motion (or even not at all). The equation is NOT describing Dauf gaining energy at all, but tells you instead just how much energy that rod in motion now possesses.

Remember, as Einstein's theory works, if E did not equal mc^2, that would mean that mass and energy were not the same thing. Essentially the universe would break down if this were the case (since our sun fuses hydrogen into helium through fusion to produce helium and thermonuclear energy. Once e=mc^2 were not to hold true, the universe would immediately stop being a bright place, since energy and mass would be two separate things, not the same thing in different forms as Einstein's equation shows us)

e=mc^2 applies to mass in motion; in other words, it is Einstein attempting to measure the amount of kinetic energy an object has at certain speeds.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

why use a different equation though? It may not have been its original purpose, but that equation does its job just fine. There is no variable for speed in it, so it is not limited to velocity. The link I provided:

Basically, the equation states that matter and energy are identical. If you could convert a small amount of matter completely, it would yield a tremendous amount of energy. Let's use gasoline as an example. If we burned 3 kilograms of gasoline (about 1.05 US Gallons or 3.97 liters), it would yield 140,000,000 Joules, which is a tremendous amount of energy. However, the burning of gasoline only produces a chemical change.

The burning of gasoline in that example had nothing to do with speed, so the formula is general.

Anyway, the great thing about this formula is that the speed of light is constant. That is why it is general enough for only E and M to matter, thus it is the right formula to use. ;) We have no v for velocity or anything.

Edit:

Besides, we are all masses in motion ;) that is unless the earth is not in motion :D

[Cyclone]

For example, everytime Dauff makes a rod and shoots it thats energy turned into mass. Or if Isley changes from human form to Awakened form that again would be energy to mass. The other possibility would be magic, but I like that less in this particular story. Anyway, for E=MC^2 to be true, then that means that Isley has more yoki in human form, because to be in abyssal form he would've had to convert some of it into mass.

Please recall:
youma is the japanese word for demon.
youki is the ki, or life energy, of a you(ma).

You sure you prefer physics to magic in this case?

[revan5]

Please recall:
youma is the japanese word for demon.
youki is the ki, or life energy, of a you(ma).

You sure you prefer physics to magic in this case?

But it makes a lot of sense, since it perfectly explains why we do not see awakened beings in their awakened forms all of the time (it takes more energy to move and even more to transform), but also why Luciella was unable to maintain her form. She ran out of energy to maintain the mass, so instead of dying, she converted the mass back into energy in order to try to escape Isley.

Physics to me makes perfect sense in this regard in the claymore world. Some of the fighting stuff not so much, but physics suits awakened beings perfectly fine in this regard. Biology, on the other hand, is a different matter.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Sure, Ki is the key actually :) to explain a lot of the impossible in manga. :D And being a fan of many animes and mangas that use the concept of Ki, it comes in handy since you can plug it into the E.

[Cyclone]

e=mc^2 applies to mass in motion; in other words, it is Einstein attempting to measure the amount of kinetic energy an object has at certain speeds.

It's true that e=mc^2 applies to mass in motion, but Einstein's general theory is that energy and mass are in fact flip sides of the same coin. You cannot destroy it, only change its form. In order to gain mass, Isley MUST use up energy. He cannot simply conjure up mass out of thin air without using energy. If he were to do so, it would be termed "supernatural", and claymore tends to stay (relatively) close to real-world physics compared to, oh, say a series like Bleach.

Perhaps the previous poster could have used a different equation, since conversion from one to the other (mass to energy and energy to mass) in the way we are talking about Isley is not exactly what Einstein was describing with e=mc^2 (but it is an equation that supports what he is saying to a certain regard). What Einstein was intending to relay was the idea that supports why a bullet can be just as deadly if not deadlier than a much bigger arrowhead. The reason? Though the mass is smaller, the speed of the bullet's mass adds a great deal of force, so much so that its overall energy is in fact often greater (in Joules) and thus why gunshots are so deadly.

Thus the fact that Einstein discovered that energy & mass are in fact the same thing in different forms holds true. Were it not true, bullets could not possibly hope to deliver as much or more killing energy to their intended targets as a larger object.

I don't mean to rude, but (hmm... little aside: there's always a 'but' when someone says that - quite annoying, isn't it?) it might be time to have another peek into your physics text book.

Firstly, E=mc^2 does not messure kinetic enegry - rather the total potential energy of the mass if it were to be converted into energy.

Granted, Newtonian physics have the formula E = 1/2 m v^2 for messuring kinetic energy. Personally, I always found Einstien's equation a little dubious because it looks a little too much like Newton's (the speed of light is a velocity afterall) but where he forgot the constant term (that and the dubious axiom that nothing is faster than the speed of light). Math is a fascinating subject, and sometimes even wrong starting points lead to consistant results if applied thoroughly (if someone can explain to me why nothing is faster than the speed axiomatically, yet it leads to the conclusion that time bends isn't a contradition - I am curious). Anyways, that's just me, and I digress.

As for bullets, the have nothing to do what-so-ever with Einstein's theory. They are nowhere near fast enough (IIRC, about mach 0.5 to ~4, depending on gun, munition, charge, barrel, etc). Newtonian physics regarding force and momentum desribe them fine.

[revan5]

Sure, Ki is the key actually :) to explain a lot of the impossible in manga. :D And being a fan of many animes and mangas that use the concept of Ki, it comes in handy since you can plug it into the E.

For Claymore this works better than for a series like Bleach, where physics and reality seem not to apply at all (I suppose that is the price to be paid for having a series about spirits and spiritual power). In general, I always seem to be impressed with the brains of the claymore fan community. We seem to actually put some real thought into our ramblings on more than one occasion.

@Cyclone-Nah, don't worry about it. I was constantly getting myself in trouble with my brother, mom and dad, all of whom are engineers who know their physics very well. Thankfully I have you guys to help me out here in remembering the basics. The one thing that I always remembered through it all, even when completely off the subject of physics, is that mass and energy are essentially flip sides of the same coin. That, if I remember right, was part of the breakthrough of Einstein's approach, am I right? I believe it was Einstein who figured that part out, correct?

[Gangsta Spanksta]

For Claymore this works better than for a series like Bleach, where physics and reality seem not to apply at all (I suppose that is the price to be paid for having a series about spirits and spiritual power). In general, I always seem to be impressed with the brains of the claymore fan community. We seem to actually put some real thought into our ramblings on more than one occasion.

For Ranma 1/2 it works as well. It explains roof hopping, chi balls, why the characters are so much stronger than normal people. The thing about ki is that it is energy instead of magic. I guess the less it is used as energy the less it would plug into the equation. Some other series have stuff like Chakra which they use more in a magical way than just as a power source, and that doesn't fit into the equation then.

[Wargumm1i]

When is chapter 91 going too be released in april?

[Awakened]

When is chapter 91 going too be released in april?

In May. It will be there before you realize it.

[Magin]

... I'm going to assume that it's quite natural for you guys to get way too deep into trying to figure out the logic of the Claymore world?

... now I'm just waiting for someone to say, "what logic?"

[khryoleoz]

@khryoleoz

You're thinking of this formula in the wrong way. Duaff has M0 and E0 initially. The formula has nothing to do with the mass that he already has. If Dauff create an rod then you can measure the mass of the rod. then you can figure out his new energy level by Ecurrent = E0 - Eloss, where Eloss = MrodC^2

E=mc²
And the meaning of this equation?
The energy(e) of a mass to energy conversion equals the mass(m) that was converted multiplied by the speed of light(c) squared.
If we choose mass in kilograms and the speed of light in meters per second, then the answer will be in Joules.

http://www.1728.com/einstein.htm

Surely, you don't think that if Dauff creates a Rod that he gains Energy.
I think I figured out what you were really expressing. My question is, when one reads yoki, are they reading what is left over or what is being spent?

It don't make sense to me that when an AB transforms one would detect a bigger demon-aura/energy compared to that which can be read while in a human-form where that demon-aura is suppressed. One would have to say that the Ghosts can better read Riful when she suppresses herself instead of when she releases her power. But the point that you seem to be making is that an AB would have less energy by having transformed. Yet, reading the text consistently leads us to accept that as warriors and ABs release their power their "yoki" is increased.

[Bikerider]

So some of you are trying to apply real world mathmatics and physics to a manga ?? Umm... don't you know manga subscribe to cartoon physics ? Not real world physics.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

I think I figured out what you were really expressing. My question is, when one reads yoki, are they reading what is left over or what is being spent?

It don't make sense to me that when an AB transforms one would detect a bigger demon-aura/energy compared to that which can be read while in a human-form where that demon-aura is suppressed. One would have to say that the Ghosts can better read Riful when she suppresses herself instead of when she releases her power. But the point that you seem to be making is that an AB would have less energy by having transformed. Yet, reading the text consistently leads us to accept that as warriors and ABs release their power their "yoki" is increased.

Well first off I did neglect one thing in the equation, or that is to say I assumed all energy got converted to mass, instead of some energy being wasted in the form of heat and other ways. :D Just a little self correction.

Anyway, back to what you are addressing. Well, there are several possibilities here. First off, something that Pureyoki said would make a lot of sense. That is that the minimum yoki involuntary wasted through bleed off would probably be higher in Awakened form versus human form. It seems intuitive. For one, a Awakened being would need to use more yoki to maintain its form. An Awakened being would have overall less energy right after switching to the larger form, but the awakened form is probably build for combat versus the human form. They may also be able to release more of their yoki in some ways usefully -- attacks -- in that form versus when they are in human form. But anyway, the real reason why Isley was using so much yoki was because he was regenerating himself. The kind of regeneration an abyssal does requires massive energy, and Isley probably had to use less healing himself in human form. But even Deneve when healing herself has to use so much yoki that she nears the point of awakening. Regeneration is one of the most costly yoki operations we have seen.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

So some of you are trying to apply real world mathmatics and physics to a manga ?? Umm... don't you know manga subscribe to cartoon physics ? Not real world physics.

There is nothing wrong with using some real world logic to *some* manga when speculating and coming up with theories. In fact, some authors keep it in mind when writing. Claymore is a manga where you can explain things without resorting to magic. In a way, you could say it could be Science Fiction moreso than Fantasy. SciFi uses concepts that maybe possible. Fantasy uses magic. :q anyway, we have yet to see Yuma fall of a cliff and Helen go Beep Beep.

[Awakened]

I think it's better to say that there is more yoki leakage when an Ab transform. Like dragon ball-Z.

I don't think that the quantity of yoki is read. An AO that is low on yoki will still have the signal of a strong yoki.

Even when Riful surpresed her yoki, Galatea was able to sense her strong yoki. It might have something to do with quality of yoki.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Dunno, this goes back to the yokisize versus yokiquality discussion in the speculations thread. I don't think that Galatea can read Yokiquality Miria and Priscilla on the other hand I think can.

[chibamonster]

Lol. Real world (theoretical) physics eh? As interesting as the topic would be in a metaphysical star trek thread, Claymore is based off of character interactions, not physics thought experiments.

The thing is I think Yagi will actually explain the nature of youki in relation to changing size and shape. He decided to give us a map of the island and tell us why the swords are so sturdy. I think the nature of youki and such will have more to do with the KI mentioned in YOUKI (demon energy), especially in relation to the human heart that Claymore spends so much time focused on. The soul link really brings up some interesting questions, almost like it dissolves the characters AT field or something.

@Cyclone: Interesting to see someone else who has some questions about Einstein's famous equations. I am actually quite surprised he gets the credit he does. It reminds me of how some people universally accept that Adolf Hitler was the most evil person of the 20th century when there are some serious contenders for that title, especially if you go for numbers.

Personally I think Nikola Tesla had a much more provocative view of the state of matter in relation to energy. I believe he said something to the effect of "if we understood the nature of electricity we would understand the nature of reality" (unless I just made that up). Not sure which part of Canada you are in, but there is a guy in the Vancouver doing some crazy experiments up there named John Hutchinson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hutchison). Not that he can reliably replicate them though, but still interesting food for thought...

[FragrantFlora]

OMG, I hate math. Please people stopp!!! :p

[Cyclone]

@Cyclone-Nah, don't worry about it. I was constantly getting myself in trouble with my brother, mom and dad, all of whom are engineers who know their physics very well. Thankfully I have you guys to help me out here in remembering the basics. The one thing that I always remembered through it all, even when completely off the subject of physics, is that mass and energy are essentially flip sides of the same coin. That, if I remember right, was part of the breakthrough of Einstein's approach, am I right? I believe it was Einstein who figured that part out, correct?

Yeah, basically yes. I'm not too much of a physics buff myself, but that's my understanding. Basically though, the with the speed of light being as large a constant as it is (ignoring for a minute it's not actually a constant if not in vacuum), even a tiny mass has ridiculous amounts of energy in it. This energy can be released in a nuclear reaction (if the atom is smashed for example). Basically though, when you see Einstien's equation it sums up the amount of energy holding a particle of matter together. Strictly theoretically, I suppose there is no reason for the equation not to hold in reverse too and given enough energy, then form matter - I don't think we're anywhere near there yet though.

@Cyclone: Interesting to see someone else who has some questions about Einstein's famous equations. I am actually quite surprised he gets the credit he does. It reminds me of how some people universally accept that Adolf Hitler was the most evil person of the 20th century when there are some serious contenders for that title, especially if you go for numbers.

Personally I think Nikola Tesla had a much more provocative view of the state of matter in relation to energy. I believe he said something to the effect of "if we understood the nature of electricity we would understand the nature of reality" (unless I just made that up). Not sure which part of Canada you are in, but there is a guy in the Vancouver doing some crazy experiments up there named John Hutchinson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hutchison). Not that he can reliably replicate them though, but still interesting food for thought...

Marketing in science is just as possible as anywhere else. Same can be done short term with history. Nothing new. Still happens to this day.

I'm on Eastern Standard Time - so nowhere near Vancouver. I seen some documentary or something on Hutchison - I don't really know what to make of him. Would be nice if he stumbled onto something eventually though.

Tesla on the otherhand was a genius. I've read his biography. It would have been nice if he got the funding to finish that wireless transmission of power he was working on. Imagine - no more need for batteries. By all accounts his lab/house was even more impressive though. Lights without any discernable sources, and I forget all the other cool stuff. The arsonist that burned his place down comitted a sin against all of humanity. Even without all that, the amount and quality of stuff he invented was awesome (AC power for example). It was a superb read. Pity geniuses like him only appear once ever several hundred years. If Tesla said something on this matter - you can bet I'll listen. No one has ever understood electricity as well as him before or since.

[Squawks]

The hell is wrong with you people, just enjoy the manga and leave those kind of theories out of it. God, you're like the folks at APF. Yagi doesn't even think about this Jesus Christ.

[FragrantFlora]

The hell is wrong with you people, just enjoy the manga and leave those kind of theories out of it. God, you're like the folks at APF. Yagi doesn't even think about this Jesus Christ.

This is a forum so they're free to talk about anything they have in mind related to the manga.

And being someone who visits the general chat and general anime section, boy, am I sure happy the claymore section doesn't have retards. Everyone here knows how to make educated and intelligent statements. They should all be praised instead of being insulted.

[LONEWOLF13]

The hell is wrong with you people, just enjoy the manga and leave those kind of theories out of it. God, you're like the folks at APF. Yagi doesn't even think about this Jesus Christ.

I agree this is way too deep if you ask me but i geuss its quite natural and i dont mind having educated and intelligent statements.But does it really have that much to do with the manga?

[PureYoki]

Strictly theoretically, I suppose there is no reason for the equation not to hold in reverse too and given enough energy, then form matter - I don't think we're anywhere near there yet though.

Correct.

If two objects have the same mass, and we heat one of them up from an external source, does the heated object gain mass? If we put both objects on a sensitive enough balance, would the heated object weigh more than the unheated object? Would the heated object have a stronger gravitational field than the unheated object?

The answer to all of the above questions is yes. The hot object has more energy, so it weighs more and has a higher mass than the cold object. It will also have a higher gravitational field to go along with its higher mass, by the equivalence principle. (Carlip 1999) See this page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_in_general_relativity) for the full article.

The problem with Einstein's relativity equations is that we can't observe them in our daily lives and thus we take them with a grain of salt. If you tell someone that a clock at sea level runs slower than a clock at the top of Mount Everest, he'll probably laugh it off.

I agree this is way too deep if you ask me but i geuss its quite natural and i dont mind having educated and intelligent statements.But does it really have that much to do with the manga?

We're just having a small talk until the new chapter comes out. :)

[wnmnkh]

I came here to expect chap 90 discussion, but I see some theories going around .(???)

[yezhanquan]

This month is a bit special because of April Fool's. So, we don't talk about spoilers until we've seen the Chinese scans, which of course will surface first.

[Squawks]

This is a forum so they're free to talk about anything they have in mind related to the manga.

And being someone who visits the general chat and general anime section, boy, am I sure happy the claymore section doesn't have retards. Everyone here knows how to make educated and intelligent statements. They should all be praised instead of being insulted.True, but seriously a lot of you are taking this to a new level. Claymore is not that deep. Just enjoy it, if you are going to think about every fruit user in One Piece, or Gear 2 for that matter, your head is going to hurt! D:

I agree this is way too deep if you ask me but i geuss its quite natural and i dont mind having educated and intelligent statements.But does it really have that much to do with the manga?Nope.

[FragrantFlora]

True, but seriously a lot of you are taking this to a new level. Claymore is not that deep. Just enjoy it, if you are going to think about every fruit user in One Piece, or Gear 2 for that matter, your head is going to hurt! D:

This is a forum. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and have the right to post what they think. If it bothers you, ignore the posts. No need to be rude.;)

[yezhanquan]

Any word from our Chinese friends?

[LONEWOLF13]

Inderdaad Nope:D

[FragrantFlora]

Anyone know some nice Claymore communites besides minitokyo claymore club?:)

[KingOfWorlds]

Your strength in Awakened form being stronger than your strength in Human form does not necessarily mean that there is an increase in yoki in either form. In fact, if there were then E=MC^2 is not true in the claymore world -- and it doesn't need to be. In fact, if E=MC^2 is true, then the increase in mass would mean a decrease in Energy (Yoki). But anyway, just because one form is more efficient in combat than another form, only means that that form uses more energy, not that you have less energy in the other form.

Thats kind of what i was trying to say

[KingOfWorlds]

But AB are definitively stronger on AB form. If not, why would Isley need to turn into Silver Centaur to face the AFs? Or why would Dauf turn into Purple Titan to kill Awakened Katea (and yes I know he wasn't fully turned but Katea was a weakling anyway)?

I wasn't saying that one form was stronger then the other.
I was saying that maybe since Awakened's go from there Awakened Form to Human form that their Yoki Energy is more dense in human form.
Density isn't really a good thing... when something is dense is more heavy, thicker, and cramped, which isn't a good thing because if something their Yoki is dense is harder form then to their Yoki in combat, which is why they transform to their Awakened form for combat, except when their up against someone weaker then they may just toy with them or something like that.

And you can't really use Dauf as a comparison to Isley because as you have seen...
The Power Gap between a number 1 and warriors below is huge..
Because Isley may not have needed to turned at all to crush Katea

[Arkham]

''I'm an educated fool
So I don't know what it is I'm supposed to do...":D

[iLney]

True, but seriously a lot of you are taking this to a new level. Claymore is not that deep. Just enjoy it, if you are going to think about every fruit user in One Piece, or Gear 2 for that matter, your head is going to hurt! D:


It is that deep :heh:

I don't discuss One Piece, which I enjoy, because my comments may stop me reading the series :heh:

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Your strength in Awakened form being stronger than your strength in Human form does not necessarily mean that there is an increase in yoki in either form. In fact, if there were then E=MC^2 is not true in the claymore world -- and it doesn't need to be. In fact, if E=MC^2 is true, then the increase in mass would mean a decrease in Energy (Yoki). But anyway, just because one form is more efficient in combat than another form, only means that that form uses more energy, not that you have less energy in the other form.Thats kind of what i was trying to say

I am glad that you quoted that. Because I did say that Claymore need not follow that rule of physics. So I am open to people ignoring it. :D But to me that is something as fundamental as Claymores breathing air. And Ki is the key how Claymores and Awakened beings can do things without breaking the laws of physics. And as you know, I was just pointing out that intuitively, that Isley should have more yoki in human form versus Abyssal form. :p That's for everyone upset about the math. ;) Otherwise, I couldn't make such statements that he has more yoki in that form, without explaining why. :D

I wasn't saying that one form was stronger then the other.
I was saying that maybe since Awakened's go from there Awakened Form to Human form that their Yoki Energy is more dense in human form.
Density isn't really a good thing... when something is dense is more heavy, thicker, and cramped, which isn't a good thing because if something their Yoki is dense is harder form then to their Yoki in combat, which is why they transform to their Awakened form for combat, except when their up against someone weaker then they may just toy with them or something like that.


your density theory seems to be pretty solid :D

[iLney]

You guys are assuming that Isley in AB form is HEAVIER than in human form. That's a big assumption :heh:

[Anima]

You guys are assuming that Isley in AB form is HEAVIER than in human form. That's a big assumption :heh:
You don't possibly think that he is bumped with air to inflate his body to that size, do you? :heh:

[Gangsta Spanksta]

:D Nah, Isley has more mass in his AB form versus his human form. The energy doesn't weight anything. BTW, if Isley doesn't use energy to mass conversion to get big, and instead there would be more space between his atoms, then he would weight the same in human form as he does in Abyssal form, meaning that you could see Undine lifting up the big horsey by his foot and whirling him around. :D So see, ;) E=MC^2 is a good thing!

[Rowan]

That, or his human form is so incredibly dense he should be breaking the ground every time he walks.

R.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

That, or his human form is so incredibly dense he should be breaking the ground every time he walks.

R.

Or getting outwitted by every vacuum cleaner salesman he meets. :heh:

Priscilla: The reason I left Isley for Raki? His vast collection of vaccume cleaners. :(

[chibamonster]

@KingOfWorlds: Interesting theory. Where do you see this in the manga?

It seems to me that the awakened form does have some definite advantages. The reason I say this is that most of the time awakened beings use their awakened form to some degree. Duff pulls those rods out and uses them all the time. Riful grabs Jean with an awakened arm and stabs Renee with an awakened arm as well. Would Riful use an awakened limb if there were no advantage? What about Isley's arrows? The reason they use these things is that the awakened form does provide some obvious advantages.

As Isley and Luciella's fight escalates they awaken more parts of their body until they are in their completely awakened state, even though they decided before hand they would not go that far. They destroy the landscape around them and Galatea senses them from a different wing of the island. Priscilla uses her awakened form to fight Rigardo. The only awakened being I can think of who fights in their human form without being forced into submission like Luciella and Agatha is Rosemary who is doing it to prove something, and she gets a definite power increase when she concedes and uses her awakened form.

As odd as it sounds to you would be theoretical physicists, and contrary to Einsteins famous equation, more youki is sensible and present when an awakened being is in their awakened form. Riful can suppress hers, but she is much better at suppressing when she is in her smaller human state because she is not releasing youki in her awakened form as seen when she met Audrey and Rachel. The youki release naturally appears to be linear like, oh I dunno, the scale of 0-100% that Yagi gave us for youki release. The youki is not traded for physical matter. Releasing more youki has the side effect of changing a claymores physical body.

Claymores are meant to awaken. That is what they were designed for. Teresa tells us that youma have to change shape to release their youki when she kills the 7 youma (what kept you? You should have summoned your power the moment you saw me Claymore chapter 12 page 19) . Claymores have to release youki to get more power and it changes their form in noticable steps that Teresa outlined for us which we can see many times, especially when Galatea fights Duff 1 on 1 or whenever Clare gets a limit breaker like Omnislash. Awakened beings have the same relationship where releasing more youki gives them more power and it changes their form.

[iLney]

That, or his human form is so incredibly dense he should be breaking the ground every time he walks.

R.

AB form being light, by no means, indicates that the human form is heavy :)

@Gangsta: well, she can lift him if he lets her do it. His lightweight nature may explain his affection for chibi stuffs (Priscilla) :D

[Sephiroth_760]

It's not out yet, ducky. We're speculating.

wtf
I thought it were out already be the art you're talking haha xD

[Gangsta Spanksta]

[B]
As odd as it sounds to you would be theoretical physicists, and contrary to Einsteins famous equation, more youki is sensible and present when an awakened being is in their awakened form. Riful can suppress hers, but she is much better at suppressing when she is in her smaller human state because she is not releasing youki in her awakened form as seen when she met Audrey and Rachel. The youki release naturally appears to be linear like, oh I dunno, the scale of 0-100% that Yagi gave us for youki release. The youki is not traded for physical matter. Releasing more youki has the side effect of changing a claymores physical body.

It doesn't seem odd at all, nor contradict Einsteins equation on energy to mass conversion. A bigger body would require more energy to maintain, which means that they are using more energy, so there is more energy being wasted and bleed off into the environment. In fact, as someone else pointed out yesterday, it explains why awakened beings return to their human form if they lose too much energy, because the awakened form becomes unmaintainable.

[FragrantFlora]

Hmm...I think the AB forms are definitely heavier than their human forms. Even more if yoki does contribute to their weight.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

wtf
I thought it were out already be the art you're talking haha xD

Usually by today, we would have a spoiler -- which we do, a bad one -- and we tend to discuss the spoilers.

It used to be:

2 Fake Spoilers + 1 Real Spoiler --> Discussion --> Chinese Scans --> Discussion --> Japanese Scans --> Discussion --> English Translation --> Discussion.

It isn't that predictable anymore. Sometimes the Chinese scans come out before the spoiler or even the Japanese original before the Chinese. And we haven't been getting the two fake spoiler for one real one anymore. Sometimes it has been just one real spoiler. So basically, we are waiting around for a spoiler to come around that is better than the first one we got. Then again, last month's spoiler seemed fake and crappy too, but was true, so who knows? :D

[chibamonster]

@Gangsta Spanksta: @KingOfWorlds:
As odd as it sounds to you would be theoretical physicists, and contrary to Einsteins famous equation, more youki is sensible and present when an awakened being is in their awakened form. Riful can suppress hers, but she is much better at suppressing when she is in her smaller human state because she is not releasing youki in her awakened form as seen when she met Audrey and Rachel. The youki release naturally appears to be linear like, oh I dunno, the scale of 0-100% that Yagi gave us for youki release. The youki is not traded for physical matter. Releasing more youki has the side effect of changing a claymores physical body.

The youki is not traded for physical matter in respect to their awakened form. It is traded for matter in the case of regeneration, which an AB can do a ton of.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

AB form being light, by no means, indicates that the human form is heavy :)

@Gangsta: well, she can lift him if he lets her do it. His lightweight nature may explain his affection for chibi stuffs (Priscilla) :D

*What would've happened if Isley weighed the same in human form and Abyssal form*

Helen: Oh my god! He grew into a giant horsey and is now powering up a Yoki blast! We're so fscked!
Deneve: Well if we're going to die, we might as well die together.

*Helen stretchy kicks Isley in what she thinks is her last suicide attack.*

*Isley crashes into the ground right in front of Clare's group*

Clare: WTF? I don't need this...

[FragrantFlora]

*What would've happened if Isley weighed the same in human form and Abyssal form*

Helen: Oh my god! He grew into a giant horsey and is now powering up a Yoki blast! We're so fscked!
Deneve: Well if we're going to die, we might as well die together.

*Helen stretchy kicks Isley in what she thinks is her last suicide attack.*

*Isley crashes into the ground right in front of Clare's group*

Clare: WTF? I don't need this...

Haha. Helen can might as well use her stretchy claymore slash to at least cut something off. :p

[iLney]

"Would've", but it didn't happen. Who knows, maybe the center of mass on Isley's body can fluctuate freely :rolleyes:

[Gangsta Spanksta]

@Gangsta Spanksta:

The youki is not traded for physical matter in respect to their awakened form. It is traded for matter in the case of regeneration, which an AB can do a ton of.

Ah for one thing I think I read your original post as sensible being the ability to sense it versus that it makes sense. I don't agree with there being more yoki in abyssal form. Nor do I agree with Isley being able to gain mass out of no where. That is unless there is another factor involved like magic, which I have no problems against, but rather not use in a story that doesn't need it to explain things. I think that ABs have more yoki in human form, but can't use it as well for combat. Healing is a different story. Also using a certain amount of yoki may be hazardous for the human form if it is not used for healing.

[gene]

クレイモア
リフル討伐へ西へと向かうアリシアとベス
ラボナのミリアたちもその大きな妖気の動きを察知していた
そこにヘレンとデネヴからの伝言を託されたディートリヒが来訪する
報告を受けたことで、事態を把握し、西の地を案じるミリアたち
一方、西のクレアたちは森でダフと遭遇していた
何とか気付かれずにやり過ごそうとしたものの、ユマが捕まってしまう
強固なダフにてこずり、ユマの捕まれた片足を切断することで
何とか逃げ延び一息付く三人だったが
クレアが単独でダフの後をつけリフルの根城へ向かおうとする
何故？と思い止まらせようとする二人に対し、
ラファエラに会わなければならない、自分でも説明できない思いを口にするクレア
6月号につづく.

glad to see miria again after N months........（n=)*—￥#（）
and poor yuma lost her leg....

ps
it's 2 April here so it's all up to you...

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Google Translation:

Claymore
Alicia and Beth and head west to subdue RIFURU
The sense that the movement of their large妖気the MIRIA RABONA
The visitors were pinned to the message from Dietrich and Helen there DENEVU
It was reported to understand the situation, we wonder how someone is MIRIA西NO地
Meanwhile, the West Clare had encountered in the forest duff and
YARI過GOSOU had not noticed something, it caught the Yuma
Duff TEKOZURI the firm, to amputate a leg in the Yuma捕MARETA
3 people get a breath was barely逃GE延BI
And headed to a haunt of the RIFURU own Claire Duff
Why? The two tried to思I止MARA,
Rafaela must meet in, Clare to say I can not explain in his
No. 6 continued.

BTW, there is no need for spoiler tags. :D This thread is clearly labeled "Chapter 90" ;)

[chibamonster]

@Gangsta Spanksta: You have problems with magic in a fictional world where the power they have is a linear scale of release called "demon energy" where the main characters fight and are demons or monsters? :twitch:

And, um, the awakened beings do gain mass out of no where. Look at the transformation of the beetle male scout in chapter 52 pages 30-31. You can stick to your ideas that yagi values "physics" the way you do, but look at some practical examples of "real physics" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass-energy_equivalence#Practical_examples)

One gram of mass — approximately the mass of a U.S. dollar bill — is equivalent to the following amounts of energy:

89.9 terajoules
24.9 million kilowatt-hours (≈25 GW·h)
21.5 billion kilocalories (≈21 Tcal)
21.5 kilotons of TNT-equivalent energy (≈21 kt) (bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were in this range (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapon_yield)
85.2 billion BTUs
That is one GRAM of mass. One kilogram is 1000x times that :D. And to get enough mass to be a giant pony, I dare say Isley should just turn his own mass to energy (as apparently AB's can jump between mass and energy at will) and nuke his opponents...

Claymore does not conform to your rules of how the world works. Trying to make it so is an exercise in, dare I say it, fictional writing on fictional writing. It conforms to its own rules, where monsters that eat people exist, souls can be merged, human hearts can be lost, and the main focus is the human heart and human relationships.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

:p BTW, we have yet to see the real spoiler. Each of the spoilers so far have something missing that the real spoiler usually has.

@Chiba:

And thinking that Awakened Beings can somehow store massive amounts of energy, yoki, isn't any more silly speculation and theorization than talk about the human heart you know. Again, I never said that it was wrong to think differently or have a different opinion and theory. I just prefer using yoki being converted to mass to explain the increase in mass. It at least tries to deal with the question of: where did it come from? I prefer that to mass appearing out of nowhere or more yoki appearing out of nowhere along with that mass. Furthermore, using that real world concept isn't any different from using the concept that humans breath air in yagi's world. I could say that trying to make that humans breath air in Claymore is an exercise in, dare you say, fictional writing on fictional writing as well. There is no difference between that real world example or the other. So why should one be more accepted than the other?

[iLney]

If that spoiler were true, my prediction long ago was correct. After 7 years, Duff still owns Clare :heh:

[chibamonster]

@Gangsta Spanksta: The difference is what APPEARS in Claymore and what appears in your mind. We have evidence that Claymores breath air in Yagi's world, from the story itself; Ophelia attempts to drown Clare and mentions that it is quite an unfitting end. Also Clare breathing heavily when exhausted, etc. The human heart IS in the story a whole lot. I daresay it is the focus of the story. And Yagi also has shown quite a system for how youki reacts to characters as they release it. I personally would prefer to examine what he shows as opposed to what I think about the real world.

You naturally can think anything you want to, and you can pull the "but I prefer" card all you want. Just don't expect people to take you seriously if you want to talk about what is happening in the story as we lose the common ground we share of this fictional world and instead each have to rely on our independent studies and experiences in various fields.

Can you imagine if we started linking Claymore to the different religious beliefs we each have or do not have?

[Gangsta Spanksta]

@Gangsta Spanksta: The difference is what APPEARS in Claymore and what appears in your mind. We have evidence that Claymores breath air in Yagi's world, from the story itself; Ophelia attempts to drown Clare and mentions that it is quite an unfitting end. Also Clare breathing heavily when exhausted, etc. The human heart IS in the story a whole lot. I daresay it is the focus of the story. And Yagi also has shown quite a system for how youki reacts to characters as they release it. I personally would prefer to examine what he shows as opposed to what I think about the real world.

You naturally can think anything you want to, and you can pull the "but I prefer" card all you want. Just don't expect people to take you seriously if you want to talk about what is happening in the story as we lose the common ground we share of this fictional world and instead each have to rely on our independent studies and experiences in various fields.

Can you imagine if we started linking Claymore to the different religious beliefs we each have or do not have?

The human heart is mentioned, but what it really means and is, is vague and up to interpretation, and you speculating on what it is, what yagi meant when having the characters briefly mention it, isn't really that much more substantial than E=MC^2. And the whole what is mentioned thing in the story is sidestepping the point. So are you saying that if we didn't have that scene with Clare being drowned by Ophelia that we couldn't, shouldn't, assume that Clare breaths air? Are we just supposed to check our intuition at the door and say that humans don't need oxygens and that plants don't produce it and take in CO2? Breathing air is not a fundamentally less real world concept than E=MC^2. I suppose that the desert raki was in was cold, which deserts can be, but come on :d there is a certain amount of real world things that we accept in the story. If someone was hit by lightning and the scene changes to never show them again, are we not to assumed that they probably died by electrocution? There is a concept in writing called plausibility that readers and critics use alike when judging a story. If I was to take what you say here to heart then there would be no concept of plausibility, if you understand what I mean. Anyway, :) I notice you also mentioned my views on magic in the previous post, which are incorrect again. I have nothing against magic in a story, but Claymore to me doesn't need it, so i prefer to look for other explanations.

[Negativedark]

クレイモア
リフル討伐へ西へと向かうアリシアとベス
ラボナのミリアたちもその大きな妖気の動きを察知していた
そこにヘレンとデネヴからの伝言を託されたディートリヒが来訪する
報告を受けたことで、事態を把握し、西の地を案じるミリアたち
一方、西のクレアたちは森でダフと遭遇していた
何とか気付かれずにやり過ごそうとしたものの、ユマが捕まってしまう
強固なダフにてこずり、ユマの捕まれた片足を切断することで
何とか逃げ延び一息付く三人だったが
クレアが単独でダフの後をつけリフルの根城へ向かおうとする
何故？と思い止まらせようとする二人に対し、
ラファエラに会わなければならない、自分でも説明できない思いを口にするクレア
6月号につづく.

glad to see miria again after N months........（n=)*—￥#（）
and poor yuma lost her leg....

ps
it's 2 April here so it's all up to you...

Okay this sounds better. That's a plus.

[little_angel]

Google Translation:



BTW, there is no need for spoiler tags. :D This thread is clearly labeled "Chapter 90" ;)

thx ..

i think this is yagi style .. and Rufil doesnt die in this chapter .. so most likely this is the real one ..

[Gangsta Spanksta]

thx ..

i think this is yagi style .. and Rufil doesnt die in this chapter .. so most likely this is the real one ..

No it lacks something important, so it is most likely not the real spoiler :D It is something that every single real spoiler has had since I've been posting at this site. Something that will make a newbie go: Oh no! No Claymore next month? :D

[Sleepy Speculator]

No way could Duff own Clare, she'd solo him with her crazy skills she now has.

[chibamonster]

@Gangsta Spanksta: I am sidestepping the point? I did mention Clare breathing in the story besides that bit of the story where Ophelia tried to drown her. Don't blame me for missing the point because you picked a terrible and innacurate example to support your claim.

And as Cyclone and I mentioned, you assume people believe E=Mc^2 or that they even know what it means which they do not. There are world class scientists working to prove this theory wrong. That is why I mentioned religion and different belief systems. It is not the same as the common experience of breathing air, something all humans have to do to live.

Why are you bringing up hypothetical situations from lightning strikes in stories that do not exist? Give me examples from CLAYMORE to discuss so we have common ground. A story you create is your domain and your rules apply to any point you want to make. Story is communication.

Something being VAGUE and something NOT APPEARING IN THE STORY is different, despite what you may fantasize. You can think they are the same, but do not expect to be taken seriously.

[Awakened]

Clare had Duff rolling on the ground before she got her power-up.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

@Gangsta Spanksta: I am sidestepping the point? I did mention Clare breathing in the story besides that bit of the story where Ophelia tried to drown her. Don't blame me for missing the point because you picked a terrible and innacurate example to support your claim.

Inaccurate example? That statement most certainly is incorrect, considering that my point was that it is plausible that they do breath air, even without mention in the story. Again, you sidestepped the question that if that scene was not there, would it be incredibly fool hearty to believe that humans in the story breath air.

And as Cyclone and I mentioned, you assume people believe E=Mc^2 or that they even know what it means which they do not. There are world class scientists working to prove this theory wrong. That is why I mentioned religion and different belief systems. It is not the same as the common experience of breathing air, something all humans have to do to live.

Which world class scientists? This is one of your own pet peeves of saying something without giving reference. And to be honest, I am a bit wary of just taking your word on it considering I disagree with your negative views on the scientific theory. Not that you may not be right, but I rather have sources in this case.

Why are you bringing up hypothetical situations from lightning strikes in stories that do not exist? Give me examples from CLAYMORE to discuss so we have common ground. A story you create is your domain and your rules apply to any point you want to make. Story is communication.

I thought it was obvious. I was bringing up this well known concept in writing called Plausibility. Given the type of story Claymore is, there are certainly more things Plausible than in some other stories. But that doesn't mean that a writer can't have plausibility issues in their story if it is fiction. In Harry Potter for example, the additional concept of magic, makes more things plausible than otherwise, but there still the possibility for having something that is implausible. Anyway, Plausibility is a key topic in writing.

Something being VAGUE and something NOT APPEARING IN THE STORY is different, despite what you may fantasize. You can think they are the same, but do not expect to be taken seriously.

Well you didn't get what I was trying to point out. And just because the Human Heart is mentioned in the story doesn't mean that everything you speculate and theorize about it is in the story. Then again, what is speculation, and why all of the sudden are we forbidden to do it? As for E=MC^2, while it isn't mentioned in the story, it fits right in, and is supported by many of the things we see. Previous posts have already mentioned some of these. Another thing I could use to support E=MC^2, is to point out that Claymores don't need to eat as much as normal human beings. So obviously, they are more efficient at converting Mass to Energy than humans are, and how they just need a little nibble every once in awhile says that they are able to store huge amounts of Energy. It is enough to speculate, and there is enough to form theories on it, and it is using the manga as support. :P I mean it is like there is a speculation/theory police here that tries to enforce on what we can use for speculation and theories and what we can, and then it says that it needs to be referenced as in spoken about in the manga, which is a silly rule when it comes to speculation, especially when the substance of the speculation of what was mentioned in the manga isn't any greater than the E=MC^2 one, and is itself just speculation and the reference in the manga was vague to begin with.

The heart of the matter is that there is fact, and there is speculation, and then there are theories. Three different requirements for each, and theories are usually based on the scientific method anyway. Which maybe why it is so hard to get the concept through, when the person you are arguing with doesn't believe in said method. But then how can we have theories?

[chibamonster]

Gangsta: are you seriously defending your breathing example? Do you realize how many parts of the story would have to be absent for breathing to not be in the story? The characters couldn't talk and they wouldn't have sound effects when they breath heavily (which they do). So every word balloon in the story is a reason your example is bad. Pick an example that actually SUPPORTS your claim.


Einsteins relativity work is a magnificent mathematical garb which fascinates, dazzles and makes people blind to the underlying errors. The theory is like a beggar clothed in purple whom ignorant people take for a king... its exponents are brilliant men but they are metaphysicists rather than scientists. New York Times (11 July 1935), p. 23, c.8
~Nikola Tesla (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Tesla)

Steven Wolfram (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Wolfram) (the creator of Mathematica) is trying to approach a theory of reality using cellular automata. As this is not a science forum, that should suffice. Don't worry about Tesla's credentials, he only laid the foundation for the entire modern world we live in.

I don't even know what you are trying to prove with constantly spouting e=mc^2. The amount of energy to generate 1 kilogram of mass from energy (youki in your theory) would be the equivalent of 1000 nuclear bombs that leveled Nagasaki. And AB's weigh enough to crush villages and landscapes. If you are attacking my beliefs on the limitation of the scientific method as it is understood in popular culture, at least use the scientific formulas you hold to so religiously. If we are just going for science theories, why not say youki works as a worm hole theory or that the matter surrounding the AB's is formed into them. Mass to mass conversions are far more efficient. You could explain it with the MiB's alchemy. That is less rediculous and you don't run into the limitations of einsteins relativity.

Sometimes explaining things in stories makes them worse. Medichlorians in star wars for example. Sure yoda said "For my ally is the Force. And a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. The force surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you. Here, between you, me, the tree, the rock...everywhere! Even between the land and the ship" but he really meant, "it only works through medichlorians." But fortunately Yagi is not doing that to us. Instead we the fans are doing it to ourselves with our theories. Fantastic.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

I gotta go off to work, so I reply to that when I get back. But it is just that we seem to have different concepts of what supporting evidence, fact, speculation, theories are. To me, some of your standards of what is acceptable are too high, and oddly enough it maybe because you don't believe in the Scientific Method. It is a concept of open mindedness, and theories are not facts, they are admitting the possibility that you could be wrong about something. It is just saying, it is probable that things are this way based on this support. And speculation really shouldn't require the kind of requirements that you are asking for, especially when you justify your own speculation with a brief mention, which could be less strong that other supporting evidence. I think we are having a hard time communicating because of this. Because I say here is supporting evidence and you are expecting facts in some cases, which brief mentions are considered to be it in other cases to support your own speculation. But honestly, speculation has no such stringent requirements. It's not like it is saying: it is so, and no other speculation is valid. it is what it is, speculation. And theories can be also build on supporting evidence along with fact. You are playing by different rules than I in other words, and I think it has to do with opposing views on the scientific theory, which seems to be more open minded than your method IMO.

[PureYoki]

Einsteins relativity work is a magnificent mathematical garb which fascinates, dazzles and makes people blind to the underlying errors. The theory is like a beggar clothed in purple whom ignorant people take for a king... its exponents are brilliant men but they are metaphysicists rather than scientists. New York Times (11 July 1935), p. 23, c.8
~Nikola Tesla (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Tesla)

In defense of theory of relativity, it was not well understood among the scientists until it was proven to be pretty accurate. See this page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tests_of_general_relativity) for further information.

[chibamonster]

@Gansta: For me supporting evidence for theories in Claymore must be related to the contents of the Claymore manga. I drop the standard for fan fiction, which is about fan creativity, not analysis, pattern recognition, theme development and all those other marvelous things Yagi does so well. If Claymore is too high a standard for Claymore fans, there is a problem in my mind as that is the common ground we share.

This is not a science forum. I never said I didn't believe in science. "Science" just happens to be mostly about marketing in this world, not truth. Like Shamwow (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwRISkyV_B8) being the best towel in the world. Sorry to break it to you, but I have seen too many phenomenal things in the world of "science" get shut down to think differently.

I told you that you can think and speculate anything you want. You have the freedom to be creative and inventive. Just don't expect people to take you seriously if that freedom is the only evidence supporting your theories.

@PureYoki: That is why Einstein came up with the general relativity so quickly based off his theories correct? :D I didn't say Einstein was flat out wrong or useless. He definitely helped things like nuclear research. We still learn Newtonian physics and that is NOT particularly accurate. But they are pretty close for most things. Read the quote from Tesla again, he is talking about how relativity it is perceived and used by others.

[Vinak]

uhh. the shamwow is a horrible horrible example Chiba. huge difference between infomercials and peer reviewed papers.

[MisterJB]

Wow, I'm completely lost

You know, even tough this discussion proves that Claymore fans are smart, I think you are thinking more about all these stuff apllied to Claymore than Yagi himself.

I mean, everybody has the right to express theories and it's good to see the forum moving but sometimes I think that if this was Naruto, we would be discussing about how exactly making moves with the hands can produce electricity

[Vinak]

yea, i don't really understand why we are trying to argue science in a fantasy/science fiction based manga thread.

[chibamonster]

uhh. the shamwow is a horrible horrible example Chiba. huge difference between infomercials and peer reviewed papers.Though having seen how a lot of research is conducted I think the shamwow can actually be more reliable. Not to mention it costs exponentially less than the shams popular science throws out.

yea, i don't really understand why we are trying to argue science in a fantasy/science fiction based manga thread.

EXACTLY! Maybe we should use the manga as a base? Or would that standard be too high? :D

@MisterJB: Actually there are whole pages dedicated to the hand signs in naruto. Google it and you will be blown away. Naruto isn't even close to the worst for speculation as so much time is spent explaining chakra through Naruto's half a dozen training sessions. We probably know quite a bit more reliable information about Chakra in Naruto than we do about Youki in Claymore.

[Vinak]

Wow, I'm completely lost

You know, even tough this discussion proves that Claymore fans are smart, I think you are thinking more about all these stuff apllied to Claymore than Yagi himself.

I mean, everybody has the right to express theories and it's good to see the forum moving but sometimes I think that if this was Naruto, we would be discussing about how exactly making moves with the hands can produce electricity

ermm...perhaps these super ninjas in naruto have special internal organs capable of storing static electricity generated form wind resistance and shuffling of ones feet on carpeting.


EXACTLY! Maybe we should use the manga as a base? Or would that standard be too high? :D
when it comes to Claymore theorizing I try to recall everything we have seen so far and make sure my new theory does not contradict previous events in the story.

[MisterJB]

ermm...perhaps these super ninjas in naruto have special internal organs capable of storing static electricity generated form wind resistance and shuffling of ones feet on carpeting.

Who wanna discusse that in the Naruto section?:p

[Awakened]

E = mc^2
with some algebra

m = E / c^2

mass is equal to x amount of energy.

Basically you can turn X amount of mass into Y amount of energy.

I think Einstein was thinking about stuff like nuclear reactions. Small amount of mass holds x amount of energy withing it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC7Sg41Bp-U

If we apply this to Claymore.
Claymore's have a larger amount of energy available to them, more than what we realize. They can produce a large amount of energy, but in the process they will consume some of their mass (body). This is not new, we all consume energy when we type on manga forums. This equation might apply if we want to justify an unexpected amount of energy coming from a Claymore. The Claymore would have to scarifies a large portion of them self to produce energy on a molecular scale, like a nuclear reaction.

There is more energy in mass than we are able to normally use.

Just wanted to add to the confusion.:D

[MisterJB]

@MisterJB: Actually there are whole pages dedicated to the hand signs in naruto. Google it and you will be blown away. Naruto isn't even close to the worst for speculation as so much time is spent explaining chakra through Naruto's half a dozen training sessions. We probably know quite a bit more reliable information about Chakra in Naruto than we do about Youki in Claymore.

Really? I was blown away right now

[PureYoki]

@PureYoki: That is why Einstein came up with the general relativity so quickly based off his theories correct? :D I didn't say Einstein was flat out wrong or useless. He definitely helped things like nuclear research. We still learn Newtonian physics and that is very accurate. But they are pretty close for most things. Read the quote from Tesla again, he is talking about how relativity it is perceived and used by others.

With all due respect to Tesla, he was dead wrong on this issue. He said "The theory is like a beggar clothed in purple whom ignorant people take for a king.." but actually

The theory entered the mainstream of theoretical physics and astrophysics only with the developments between approximately 1960 and 1975, now known as the Golden age of general relativity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_age_of_general_relativity).

He also said "To say that in the presence of large bodies space becomes curved is equivalent to stating that something can act upon nothing." but

In Einstein's theory, masses distort spacetime in their vicinity, and other particles move in trajectories determined by the geometry of spacetime. This allowed a description of the motions of light and mass that was consistent with all available observations.

Newtonian theory is very accurate for daily physics problems but it's inadequate to explain phenomenon on astronomical scale. ;)

[Vinak]

Who wanna discusse that in the Naruto section?:p
I don't XD
Naruto is the one Manga/Anime I avoid like the plague.

[Awakened]

E = mc^2

Another way to look at it is.
Everything we think of as energy is actually mass.

Light (photon) = mass.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon
gasoline (C8H18)mass
wind (made up of oxigen and other stuff) = mass

They are all mass in motion.

[chibamonster]

@PureYoki: Sorry, I don't want to argue about science history in relation to popular culture etc right now. It is pointless. Gangsta asked for someone who disagreed and I gave him a source. I can go scouting for other ones, but there is no reason to. The only reason I brought it up with Gangsta was because he was siting equations without applying them to see what would happen if they were actually used. His theory operated under the assumption that readers believed nuclear physics/ astrophysics was as applicable to a fictional story theory as breathing is or human relationships. Also that they even understood what was being said. I took his theory literally to show him just what would be required to make the energy to mass transfer, and offered some equally accepted ideas in physics.

He in turn said we cannot understand each other because I am too close minded and don't believe the scientific method. Interesting.

If you or I had the answers to the discrepancies that appear in different scientific theories, we would NOT be posting them in a forum about comic books.

[PureYoki]

If you or I had the answers to the discrepancies that appear in different scientific theories, we would NOT be posting them in a forum about comic books.

Well, we hijacked the thread, didn't we? :D

We need new spoilers to get back to topic. :)

[Fenrir_valindri]

I love techno-babble and debate as much as any other Claymore fun, but I agree; we are going too far down the rabbit hole, we need spoiler pics badly.

[ellifeedn]

Off-topic @ Fenrir_valindri: What is your sig?

[azurie]

Off-topic @ Fenrir_valindri: What is your sig?

his sig is a custom image of miria's gut wound for yoma implantation =)

[Helen's Apple]

Being a mere fruit, I really have absolutely nothing worthwhile to add. However, Gangsta, leave Chiba's delicate Claymore-submersion alone. :D I contend that it's a shaky enough story as it is, seemingly rushed and plots spiraling out of control. But anyway, I'd rather us not wind up having discussions over what equations we could balance based on Claymore character symbols.

Off-topic, I found something interesting at work today, while reading--browsing Amazon.com's customer orders, really, which I am never supposed to do--a book called Emergency. In this, I stumbled onto a passage about Dr. James Bedford, who some of you might know (I hadn't the foggiest) as the first cryonically frozen man.

Just for kicks and to derail the thread, check it out here. (http://www.alcor.org/Library/html/BedfordCondition.html)

[KingOfWorlds]

@KingOfWorlds: Interesting theory. Where do you see this in the manga?

It seems to me that the awakened form does have some definite advantages. The reason I say this is that most of the time awakened beings use their awakened form to some degree. Duff pulls those rods out and uses them all the time. Riful grabs Jean with an awakened arm and stabs Renee with an awakened arm as well. Would Riful use an awakened limb if there were no advantage? What about Isley's arrows? The reason they use these things is that the awakened form does provide some obvious advantages.

As Isley and Luciella's fight escalates they awaken more parts of their body until they are in their completely awakened state, even though they decided before hand they would not go that far. They destroy the landscape around them and Galatea senses them from a different wing of the island. Priscilla uses her awakened form to fight Rigardo. The only awakened being I can think of who fights in their human form without being forced into submission like Luciella and Agatha is Rosemary who is doing it to prove something, and she gets a definite power increase when she concedes and uses her awakened form.

As odd as it sounds to you would be theoretical physicists, and contrary to Einsteins famous equation, more youki is sensible and present when an awakened being is in their awakened form. Riful can suppress hers, but she is much better at suppressing when she is in her smaller human state because she is not releasing youki in her awakened form as seen when she met Audrey and Rachel. The youki release naturally appears to be linear like, oh I dunno, the scale of 0-100% that Yagi gave us for youki release. The youki is not traded for physical matter. Releasing more youki has the side effect of changing a claymores physical body.

Claymores are meant to awaken. That is what they were designed for. Teresa tells us that youma have to change shape to release their youki when she kills the 7 youma (what kept you? You should have summoned your power the moment you saw me Claymore chapter 12 page 19) . Claymores have to release youki to get more power and it changes their form in noticable steps that Teresa outlined for us which we can see many times, especially when Galatea fights Duff 1 on 1 or whenever Clare gets a limit breaker like Omnislash. Awakened beings have the same relationship where releasing more youki gives them more power and it changes their form.


Well I'm not a "theoretical physicists" and i never read anything about Einstein before. I'm just going off the images. When Awakened Beings are in their Awakened Form, Yoki is being released to its full capacity. So imagine the suppression of all the Yoki when they transform into their Human Form. That "Suppression" is where I got the Density Theory from, so in either form their Yoki level doesn't change. Which is what the debate was about. Density would make it harder for them to fight in combat, which is why they may release only the parts of their body they intend to use.

[KingOfWorlds]

I wish this Chapters would hurry up...
Waiting month after month SUCKS ASS!
Slowly but surely the manga is taking a turn in a new direction...
And the Organization is going to crumble...
Priscillia and the Being created through the merging of Rapheala and Luciella....
(And from my knowledge Rapheala and Luciella were equals regardless of the rankings)
So its a basically a merger between to number 1 warriors...
Both are more powerful then the warriors in the Organization...
And the "Ghost (Clare and etc.) are getting stronger....
They actually saved and number 3 and 5 from Riful while managing to escape...
The Balance that the Organization thought was broken is going to be re-established...
Those Abyssal Hunters or wateva you want to call them can't stand a chance....
It took them years to building the experience and skills to kill Isley...
But Priscillia defeated Isley in an instant (said from the man himself)....
So I don't even think they would quick enough to even retreat...
Man i just can't wait for everything to unfold...

[Arkham]

Waiting does SUCK!:mad:

Im just grateful for this forum and all you people that keep the flame burning:)

Plus,i might learn some physics :p

[Aimless]

Oh, dear God. I can't take this anymore. I usually enjoy the wild speculations that show up in these threads, but trying to explain youki abilities using relativity? Argh!

Okay, time to set the record straight.

First off, some credentials. I'm a physicist (well, technically, still a grad. student, but until a full professor shows up that's the best you're going to get). I am, in fact, writing my dissertation on General Relativity.

Now that that's out of the way, let me say that the misconceptions most of you have regarding the subject are vast. The idea that you can somehow explain away the creation of mass by converting youki "energy" is absurd. As chiba mentioned earlier, the amount of energy contained in a even a small amount of mass is quite large.

Consider Isley. His human form looks to be about an average build, so as a rough approximation call it 100 kilograms. His horse form is... um... big. Using the ZACS as a metric to measure his size, I'm going to guess his body (the horse portion, not counting legs, arms, or the human torso) is roughly 2m x 2m x 25m or so (that's 6ft x 6ft x 75ft). The only animal on Earth approximating these dimensions is a blue whale. Using that as a guide, and adding in the mass of his legs and upper body, let's say that the total mass of his awakened form is ~200 metric tons.

This means that he changes mass by 199.9 metric tons, or 199,900,000 grams, when he changes forms. Thus, if this energy is coming from his youki, and we assume that somehow the conversion from energy to mass is 100% efficient (it would have to be, or the heat loss would vaporize his body and several nearby cities), he is converting the energy equivalent of 4,000 Gigatons of TNT into mass. This is substantially more than the total of the world's entire nuclear arsenal at present. In fact, it's enough energy that, if converted into thermal energy instead of mass, the resulting explosion would wipe out human civilization.

This amount of matter generation is not something that you can shout "E=mc^2," wave your hands, and magically explain away.

In fact, the powers demonstrated by the characters in Claymore are manifestly unphysical. There is no explanation for them other than "magic." Which is entirely okay, since Claymore is a fantasy series, but means that it's pointless to try to come up with speculation on the powers based on what we observe in our own world.

And as Cyclone and I mentioned, you assume people believe E=Mc^2 or that they even know what it means which they do not. There are world class scientists working to prove this theory wrong.

No. There aren't. Not in any meaningful sense.

As I said before, this is kind of my field. It's what I do. I could get very in depth about what the physics community is trying to do to further the study of gravity, but I'd have to start getting technical to do the subject any justice - and this isn't the place.

[nakaru_mizuki]

Some basic physics:

Work: is a measure of the amount of change (in a general sense) that a force produces when it acts on the body. The change may be in the velocity of the body, in its position, in it's size or shape.

(basically work can be used to describe abyssal ones changing from human form into yoma form)

Power: is the the rate at which work is done by a force thus:

Power = work/time

P=w/t

the more power something has, the more work it can perform in a given time. energy has a key role in work, which will be explained soon.

(I think this can explain the reason why Luciela fled from Isley in their battle from before, and why Isley could not defeat the Abyssal Feeders in the last chapter.)


Energy: is that property something has which enables it to do work. The more energy something has, the more work it can perform. every kind of energy calls into three general categories: kinetic energy, potential energy, and rest energy. Kinetic Energy is the energy a body has by virtue of its motion. Potential Energy is the energy a body has by virtue of its position.

(So youki does not fit into the categories of kinetic energy or potential energy.)

Rest Energy: According to Einstein's theory of relativity matter can be converted to energy and energy can be converted to matter. The rest energy of a body is the energy it has by virtue of it's mass alone. Thus, mass can be regarded as a form of energy.

(This is the main argument I see between some of the posters. But this is the best way *according to our world* to describe youki. In Claymore youki can be a whole different type of energy and it may not even behave this way, but we don't know; we can only refer to what we do know in our own world)

"All the energy-producing reactions of physics and chemistry involve the disappearance of a small amount of matter and its reappearance as energy."

(the above in quotations can relate to one of the spoilers. The organization says Isley has become weaker throughout the 7 years. I believe this is because Isley did not feed which means the matter of the food was not converted into energy but his own mass was converted into energy. and since rest energy is dependent only on mass, his energy in the end is less than it would have been if he had been feeding. not to mention he was using a lot of energy from fighting and escaping from the abyssal feeders and from regenerating himself)

I just thought this would help some of the confusion. If we had the mass of the abyssal ones and their dimensions as humans and as yomas. we can technically find how much energy they have originally. the energy they spend as work to change form. (is the energy spent on transforming really a difference compared to their original energy? or is it minute?)

[ellifeedn]

his sig is a custom image of miria's gut wound for yoma implantation =)

I see, but I don't recall seeing that in the manga.

[FragrantFlora]

Ok. I wasn't really into physics. I even barely passed that subject. I don't think I'll be replying for a while :p

[Awakened]

Priscilla Ab form is smaller than Isley Ab form, so we cannot make a comparison between mass (size) and the amount of energy an Ab has. Priscilla has more yoki (energy) than Isley

[MisterJB]

Oh, dear God. I can't take this anymore. I usually enjoy the wild speculations that show up in these threads, but trying to explain youki abilities using relativity? Argh!

Okay, time to set the record straight.

First off, some credentials. I'm a physicist (well, technically, still a grad. student, but until a full professor shows up that's the best you're going to get). I am, in fact, writing my dissertation on General Relativity.

Now that that's out of the way, let me say that the misconceptions most of you have regarding the subject are vast. The idea that you can somehow explain away the creation of mass by converting youki "energy" is absurd. As chiba mentioned earlier, the amount of energy contained in a even a small amount of mass is quite large.

Consider Isley. His human form looks to be about an average build, so as a rough approximation call it 100 kilograms. His horse form is... um... big. Using the ZACS as a metric to measure his size, I'm going to guess his body (the horse portion, not counting legs, arms, or the human torso) is roughly 2m x 2m x 25m or so (that's 6ft x 6ft x 75ft). The only animal on Earth approximating these dimensions is a blue whale. Using that as a guide, and adding in the mass of his legs and upper body, let's say that the total mass of his awakened form is ~200 metric tons.

This means that he changes mass by 199.9 metric tons, or 199,900,000 grams, when he changes forms. Thus, if this energy is coming from his youki, and we assume that somehow the conversion from energy to mass is 100% efficient (it would have to be, or the heat loss would vaporize his body and several nearby cities), he is converting the energy equivalent of 4,000 Gigatons of TNT into mass. This is substantially more than the total of the world's entire nuclear arsenal at present. In fact, it's enough energy that, if converted into thermal energy instead of mass, the resulting explosion would wipe out human civilization.

This amount of matter generation is not something that you can shout "E=mc^2," wave your hands, and magically explain away.

In fact, the powers demonstrated by the characters in Claymore are manifestly unphysical. There is no explanation for them other than "magic." Which is entirely okay, since Claymore is a fantasy series, but means that it's pointless to try to come up with speculation on the powers based on what we observe in our own world.

´

If you really want to measure Isley's size use this but have in mind that Priscilla is bigger than the average woman
http://i42.tinypic.com/1htfkw.jpg

[nakaru_mizuki]

Priscilla Ab form is smaller than Isley Ab form, so we cannot make a comparison between mass (size) and the amount of energy an Ab has. Priscilla has more yoki (energy) than Isley

Mass is not size.

[Awakened]

Mass is not size.

If we try to find out how mush energy it takes for them to change depending on their size, then we have to assume that mass is proportional to size.

[PureYoki]

This amount of matter generation is not something that you can shout "E=mc^2," wave your hands, and magically explain away.

If I didn't misinterpret him, Gangsta only says that the underlying logic is the same. In real world it's E=mc^2, in Claymore world it's for example E=mc^(1/10). Not that I agree with him, just for clarification. It looks like they don't spend any energy when they transform into their AB forms.

[Negativedark]

And I thought seeing people trying to apply physics to Godzilla was bad. Lets all just repeat the MS3K mantra. "If your wondering how he eats and breathes, and other science facts, just repeat to yourself it's just a show, I should really just relax."

So about the actual spoiler... Looks like Yuma lost a leg. Due to her bieng a defensive type, and Cynthia bieng there it's not a huge problem. But it does keep them from running for the time bieng.

[Aimless]

If I didn't misinterpret him, Gangsta only says that the underlying logic is the same. In real world it's E=mc^2, in Claymore world it's for example E=mc^(1/10). Not that I agree with him, just for clarification. It looks like they don't spend any energy when they transform into their AB forms.

If anything, it looks to me like their available energy increases when they change forms (ie, they're stronger, faster, etc.).

At any rate, I wasn't just responding to Gangsta, but in general. I enjoy silly speculations like this, but when they start touching on a topic that I know a lot about, I have trouble keeping silent. Hence, why I finally registered an account.

[PureYoki]

If anything, it looks to me like their available energy increases when they change forms (ie, they're stronger, faster, etc.).

At any rate, I wasn't just responding to Gangsta, but in general. I enjoy silly speculations like this, but when they start touching on a topic that I know a lot about, I have trouble keeping silent. Hence, why I finally registered an account.

Welcome to the forums. :)

I think the available energy doesn't change, their power (=the rate at which energy is transmitted) changes. Since they use more energy in unit time, they become stronger and faster.

[Awakened]

Welcome to the forums. :)

I think the available energy doesn't change, their power (=the rate at which energy is transmitted) changes. Since they use more energy in unit time, they become stronger and faster.

I agree.
...........

[Awakened]

If anything, it looks to me like their available energy increases when they change forms (ie, they're stronger, faster, etc.).

At any rate, I wasn't just responding to Gangsta, but in general. I enjoy silly speculations like this, but when they start touching on a topic that I know a lot about, I have trouble keeping silent. Hence, why I finally registered an account.

Welcome.:D

[dunames]

b4 every1 going crazy and turn Easley AB form to be more massive then his human form......answer this question first

which more massive.....?
1000 kilos of Gold or 1000 kilos of Feather.

now after u get the correct answer which most of u wont, then think of the space both of this material occupied....

now can Easley mass stay the same eventhough his form and size definately change big time?

now can we also speculate that in Easley awaken form not only did he change form to be more compatible with combat but he can also change teh very matter that hes made of to be a better yoki conductor thus allowing him to channel far more and quicker yoki. if his AB also change the matter that his body is made of, a better conductor can also mean more yoki leakage thus give off a higher yoki radiation that other claymore or abs can sense/read.

[Aimless]

Welcome to the forums. :)

I think the available energy doesn't change, their power (=the rate at which energy is transmitted) changes. Since they use more energy in unit time, they become stronger and faster.

Hmm. It's certainly true that their power does increase when they change forms, but I'm not so sure that the total available doesn't also change. From memory, there seems to evidence both ways here.

Luciela, having exhausted her youki in the fight with Isley, is forced to revert to her human form, indicating that some minimum level of power must be expended to maintain the awakened form (seems reasonable, since AB's appear to prefer their human form when not fighting), and as total energy reserves get low, the ability to maintain this level of output disappears. This seems to suggest the battery interpretation is correct.

However, if we consider the Claymores themselves, as they awaken they certainly gain access to new reserves of youki. Clare, in particular, has greatly increased her total energy reserves by half-awakening. Whether this increase in energy reserves is contingent upon the change of form, or that energy was already present and merely sealed in some sense I'm not sure.

[MalakTawus]

I can't belive what i'm reading in this thread!!!
Mass?Energy?Power?....but the best one is "change the matter that his body is made of, a better conductor can also mean more yoki leakage"!!!!
I love it!This is great!

PS:I'm not joking,i really mean it

[nakaru_mizuki]

If we try to find out how mush energy it takes for them to change depending on their size, then we have to assume that mass is proportional to size.


Yes that's what most people assume. But there's the structure of bones and muscles that must be thought of. We don't know what abyssal flesh or bones are made out of. Priscilla's mass can be a heck of a lot more than Isley's mass if her bones support her.

[chibamonster]

@Aimless: Very good observation. The difference we have between Luciella and Clare is that one is an awakened being and one is a partially awakened claymore. Claymores who push their youki output when injured find themselves rapidly approaching their limit. Injury actually seems to drop their limit significantly. The danger to a Claymore is not their reserves of youki, it is that they have to flirt with their limit to get to it, which if they fail is a death of its own type. We have never seen a Claymore deplete their youki, just approach their limit as that comes first. Fighting while injured is incredibly dangerous. Injury alone, as seen in Jean's torture, can actually cause a claymore to awaken without them ever willfully going over 80%.

Awakened beings CAN run out of youki as they have no limit. Isley and Luciella had this happen to them. The partially awakened characters can jump further into the category of youki PAST the limit (80% plus) to get crazy powers like healing, speed, strength, etc but they still have a limit that...er, limits them.

There is also a change of a claymore's body after they cross their limit. The quality of their youki changes. They smell different. And they do not need to use much youki to do special attacks like Helen's arm stretch. If this applies to AB's as well, which it does, then an AB's youki release at 10% is completely different than a claymore's release at 10% as their body is physically different. They are not just monster's with human heads as Clare said to Raki in the first few chapters, they are full blown monsters. That is why awakened being hunts take 4 claymores with at least one single digit.

As for you guys making up mass vs density theories, look at chapter 52 page 30-31 to SEE the difference.

[khryoleoz]

Ok. I wasn't really into physics. I even barely passed that subject. I don't think I'll be replying for a while :p
And neither do I have any competency or aptitude in science. But we can at least examine statements, look at propositions articulated and determine whether a conclusion follows a premise.

I just find a pattern to Gangsta's reasoning that is weird. Applying real-world rules, states and values to a fictional fantasy universe is useful in so far as the text affirms to some degree that an aspect of that universe we are looking at mirrors our reality. Insisting that something is because it is plausible that it could be is basically an appeal to probability and is no way to argue meaningfully. I mean, the moment we start talking about demons and monsters, I would presume that we have at that point left our own reality and arrived at a fantastic world that works differently from that point.

[nakaru_mizuki]

Even though Claymore is more "realistic" than other manga's it's not at all like our world. It'll be really hard to express the physics in here and not sound crazy. I tried. And I enjoyed analyzing, but it doesn't make a lot of sense. I'm not going to call it "magic" but more like... the manga has a different physics than our world.

I also just joined the forum (the same reason as Aimless).

I have never seen so many different ideas being put out and discussed while not seeing people wanting to beat the living crap out of each other. Really kudos to everyone in this thread.

[khryoleoz]

Mass is not size.
Do you think that a woman when comparing her bust or her man's with another's would agree with that proposition?


which more massive.....?
1000 kilos of Gold or 1000 kilos of Feather.

Let me guess, if kilos is a metric measurement of mass, than they're equal? Or are you asking about the density of matter?

[khryoleoz]

Whether this increase in energy reserves is contingent upon the change of form, or that energy was already present and merely sealed in some sense I'm not sure.
I'm inclined to believe the latter, though there's little evidence to argue for it. There was an interesting cat with whom I remember debating about this, but I haven't read anything from Voracious Reader in a long time.

[nakaru_mizuki]

Do you think that a woman when comparing her bust or her man's with another's would agree with that proposition?

The radius of a black hole of mass equal to that of the Sun is about 3 km.

[Vinak]

I was under the impression that black holes had such a mass that prevents light from escaping. wouldn't the total mass need to be greater than that of the sun? otherwise the sun would collapse under it's own gravity, right? white dwarf or neutron star sound correct to me....though it's been a really long time since I studied any level of science.

[khryoleoz]

The radius of a black hole of mass equal to that of the Sun is about 3 km.
Welcome to the forums. I guess you're not yet used to my style of jabbing at humor.

[nakaru_mizuki]

I was under the impression that black holes had such a mass that prevents light from escaping it. wouldn't the total mass need to be greater than that of the sun? otherwise the sun would collapse under it's own gravity, right? white dwarf or neutron star sound correct to me....though it's been a really long time since I studied any level of science.

It's theoretical (done with math and relations) if the mass of a black hole was equal to that of the Sun it's radius would be about 3 km.

[nakaru_mizuki]

Welcome to the forums. I guess you're not yet used to my style of jabbing at humor.

Hehe... I don't really know you. I didn't mean to sound like a prick. :/

[Negativedark]

But Isley has to get tougher in his AB form, or else the density would go way down, and he'd be easier to damage. Also his human form would be sinking into the ground due to the huge mass bieng focused into such a small area.

Arghh, you've got me doing it now.

[iLney]

Welcome to the forum :)

Since Duff owns Clare like usual, we can all rest assure that Claymore does follow stuffs like physics :D

[Aimless]

I was under the impression that black holes had such a mass that prevents light from escaping. wouldn't the total mass need to be greater than that of the sun? otherwise the sun would collapse under it's own gravity, right? white dwarf or neutron star sound correct to me....though it's been a really long time since I studied any level of science.

In order for a black hole to form through gravitational collapse, the seed mass does need to be greater that the mass of the sun. However, there are (potentially) other methods of forming a black hole which would not have this limitation. Also, black holes evaporate over time (but very slowly for black holes with mass on the order of the sun), so a black hole could be formed through the gravitational collapse of a more massive star and eventually wind up as a solar mass black hole.

That said, once a black hole is formed it is stable at any mass (although we aren't sure exactly what happens for microscopic black holes since we don't have a valid quantum theory of gravity).

[Cyclone]

Is there a real translation to the spoiler (i.e. not google)?
From glancing at the japanese, it says that Clare takes Duff on solo - I didn't get the impression anyone won yet.

Oh, btw Gansta, this latest spoiler had the magic lines you wanted - you missed them - says "says continued in isuse 6" - not quite the same as the month... but close enough

[Negativedark]

Six is June... So no Claymore until June, no Claymore in May, oh shit.

Yes I know that they mean the June issue.

[Vinak]

haven't we already gone over the whole month skipping thing?

[Cyclone]

Oh, dear God. I can't take this anymore. I usually enjoy the wild speculations that show up in these threads, but trying to explain youki abilities using relativity? Argh!

Welcome to the forum.
It probably wont be the first or last time you feel like that. :heh:

No. There aren't. Not in any meaningful sense.

As I said before, this is kind of my field. It's what I do. I could get very in depth about what the physics community is trying to do to further the study of gravity, but I'd have to start getting technical to do the subject any justice - and this isn't the place.

I obviously wont try to prove you wrong - you know what you're talking about and I don't. I would like to try and explain what bothers me (from the little I do know), and I'd sincerely appriciate if you could help me with it.

Firstly I'll say is that I don't believe the math to be wrong in his equations - that I'm sure has been vetted time and again by people who actually understand it. Since the math is correct, and as long as someone converts to and from to the system created by the axioms, everything should work. And a half century of physists seem to agree it does work.

It's the axioms Einstien built it on that bother me. Namely: The speed of light in a vacuum is a constant. In my eyes this creates a universal speed limit no less artificial than the the brick wall in the sky some people thought the sound barrier was in the 1940s. Just what kind of evidence do we have for that if you fire off a flash light and try to follow the light at 1/2 the speed of light, that the speed of light will still be constant and moving away from YOU (the observer) at full light speed. In order to make this happen, the very notions of time and matter had to be re-redefined to make it work. Wouldn't redefining time to be a variable, render the velocity figure of light meaningless through a division by 0 (and make light timeless - thus how can it be created or destroyed?)? Doesn't it just make more sense to not have light as a universal speed limit? We have managed to transmit information at rates in excess of light speed and all. We've managed to slow down light to a relative crawl (in atmosphere and at near 0 kelvin I believe). Why should it be easier to believe that time is a variable and light speed in a vacuum is a constant, rather than the other way around? There has to be some logical reason why people believe this and one I am totally ignorant of.

It just seems to me like a lot of modern physics (from the little I know) seems like kludges and workarounds to explain things that shouldn't be, and like computer code, gets more and more hacky after that. Quantum Mechanics? The particle is there or isn't there based on the observer and only some percentage of the time? eh? And with all this, they still haven't explained gravity. I read an interesting article on slashdot last week where someone came out to suggest that we should be thinking of quatum mechinics more in terms of fractals, and maybe then they could make more sense. It was an interesting read at least - seemed like a reasonable approach at least.

I just think that somewhere along the way, we just started thinking about the whole thing wrongly, and it's led us to this. If I could ask you thing - are there any conclusions that could be drawn using Einstien's methods if we didn't assume the speed of light in a vacuum is constant?

[Ryus]

Six is June... So no Claymore until June, no Claymore in May, oh shit.

Yes I know that they mean the June issue.

I don't know about Japanese magazines but here the June issue comes out at the beginning of May and goes OFF sale in June. So it stands to reason that you are having a panic attack over nothing. Issue six should be out at the beginning of May! Yeah! Wait NNOOOO!!! That's tooo long!

If it said issue 7 I'd be having a panic attack too! LOL!

Changing Subjects
This is my second post here, greetings all. I just discovered Claymore (the anime, then had to find ALL the manga chapters. I've never read a manga before, so it's been quite a month for me. I've have seen quite a lot of animes, at least in comparison with my circle of friends, I'm sure not compared to some of you.)

So unlike most of you who got angry at the end change of the anime, I discovered a manga that had a better story instead of an anime that failed the manga by not ending season 1 right. The again you all are used to waiting for the next scene, I've only done it for two weeks and am already painting my walls with bloody fist and skull imprints. :p

As you know now I got very angry/crazy when I found out there was no Chapter 90 yet and spent the last 2 weeks reading your Claymore threads. Thank you for stopping me from going completely nuts. However just reading your posts wasn't enough so I've finally decided to join in. There seems to be a bit of that today, maybe your physics argument help me too, it was CLASSIC. In a good serious way and comedic, I found I couldn't wait for next post. :D

Also, in forums, I have a tendency to never being satisfied with my avatar when I first join a forum. So if someone else is using it too or I borrowed a fan art of yours and you don't like it let me know before I become too attached it.

[khryoleoz]

@Cyclone

I hear ya. It's not the observed reality, but rather the way in which the observation is articulated that puzzles me often times. I vaguely recall an article I've read in passing a long time ago that attempted to explain an observed phenomena of electrons disappearing in one place and reappearing in another as ceasing to exist and then coming back into existence. At the time I thought to myself, are you kidding me? Even if I've apprehended nothing of the substance behind the study, spontaneous generation of any sort applied to any topic is an irrational concept. Gosh I wish I can remember where I read that from.

[Negativedark]

Six is June... So no Claymore until June, no Claymore in May, oh shit.

Yes I know that they mean the June issue.

I meant that I know that the june issue is actually out in may. Hell, I've been the one explaining that on occasion.

[Cyclone]

This is my second post here, greetings all. I just discovered Claymore (the anime, then had to find ALL the manga chapters. I've never read a manga before, so it's been quite a month for me. I've have seen quite a lot of animes, at least in comparison with my circle of friends, I'm sure not compared to some of you.)

So unlike most of you who got angry at the end change of the anime, I discovered a manga that had a better story instead of an anime that failed the manga by not ending season 1 right. The again you all are used to waiting for the next scene, I've only done it for two weeks and am already painting my walls with bloody fist and skull imprints. :p

Welcome. Welcome. Always nice to see new faces.
I hear ya about the skull imprints. We've all been there. Worst is when an issue comes out and you find our Claymore is on break. THAT is torture.

As for the anime vs manga... You have no idea just how familiar that sounds to (and probably most here). Heh - you're starting down a road from which there is no looking back. No worries - you'll have no regrets.

[ClearAcid]

Welcome to the forum.
It probably wont be the first or last time you feel like that. :heh:



I obviously wont try to prove you wrong - you know what you're talking about and I don't. I would like to try and explain what bothers me (from the little I do know), and I'd sincerely appriciate if you could help me with it.

Firstly I'll say is that I don't believe the math to be wrong in his equations - that I'm sure has been vetted time and again by people who actually understand it. Since the math is correct, and as long as someone converts to and from to the system created by the axioms, everything should work. And a half century of physists seem to agree it does work.

It's the axioms Einstien built it on that bother me. Namely: The speed of light in a vacuum is a constant. In my eyes this creates a universal speed limit no less artificial than the the brick wall in the sky some people thought the sound barrier was in the 1940s. Just what kind of evidence do we have for that if you fire off a flash light and try to follow the light at 1/2 the speed of light, that the speed of light will still be constant and moving away from YOU (the observer) at full light speed. In order to make this happen, the very notions of time and matter had to be re-redefined to make it work. Wouldn't redefining time to be a variable, render the velocity figure of light meaningless through a division by 0 (and make light timeless - thus how can it be created or destroyed?)? Doesn't it just make more sense to not have light as a universal speed limit? We have managed to transmit information at rates in excess of light speed and all. We've managed to slow down light to a relative crawl (in atmosphere and at near 0 kelvin I believe). Why should it be easier to believe that time is a variable and light speed in a vacuum is a constant, rather than the other way around? There has to be some logical reason why people believe this and one I am totally ignorant of.

It just seems to me like a lot of modern physics (from the little I know) seems like kludges and workarounds to explain things that shouldn't be, and like computer code, gets more and more hacky after that. Quantum Mechanics? The particle is there or isn't there based on the observer and only some percentage of the time? eh? And with all this, they still haven't explained gravity. I read an interesting article on slashdot last week where someone came out to suggest that we should be thinking of quatum mechinics more in terms of fractals, and maybe then they could make more sense. It was an interesting read at least - seemed like a reasonable approach at least.

I just think that somewhere along the way, we just started thinking about the whole thing wrongly, and it's led us to this. If I could ask you thing - are there any conclusions that could be drawn using Einstien's methods if we didn't assume the speed of light in a vacuum is constant?

Hey, I haven't posted in a while (in the forums in general)
but this interests me and maybe I can clarify some things with what I understand of modern physics (I'm taking a class on it)

first of all, the way I see it, the speed of light is like the "zero" in a number line (ex. -3 -2 -1 0 1 2 3)
it doesn't limit speeds, but it limits which "particles" go at what speeds.
example, any positive mass such a proton can travel with some speed that is less than the speed of light, but if you ever wanted to make the proton travel at the speed of light you need an infinite amount of energy.
now, photons, which are massless, require almost no energy to travel at the speed of light but can't go any faster.
and lastly there's a theoretical particle called tachyon that is said to travel faster than the speed of light and no slower, but has a mass that is negative, which creates unique results (we would need to put in energy to slow it down than to speed it up)
ex. if you try to catch a tachyon, in your frame the tachyon is traveling faster instead of slower but if you go in the opposite the tachyon travels slower in your frame but not slower than the speed of light.

there's a lot more but I would need to start deriving formulas and such (wiki has them)

[Vinak]

yea, I could never understand how the observer got past peer review. how does observing the event influence said event?

"If you think you understand quantum mechanics, you don't understand quantum mechanics".

[iLney]

Let see...

Light is particle A and there exists a particle B that can move faster than A.

If A is the one that carries information, in order for B to move faster than A, B has to be constantly in contact with A. This leads to two things:

_B must go slower for A to catch up.
_B must constantly creating new A along its way to keep the line communication and this makes A goes faster than B since vAnew = VB + VA.

There is a third case in which B is lost due to its speed and is constantly created by A.

Hmm.... What am I talking about? :D

[Aimless]

It's the axioms Einstien built it on that bother me. Namely: The speed of light in a vacuum is a constant. In my eyes this creates a universal speed limit no less artificial than the the brick wall in the sky some people thought the sound barrier was in the 1940s. Just what kind of evidence do we have for that if you fire off a flash light and try to follow the light at 1/2 the speed of light, that the speed of light will still be constant and moving away from YOU (the observer) at full light speed. In order to make this happen, the very notions of time and matter had to be re-redefined to make it work. Wouldn't redefining time to be a variable, render the velocity figure of light meaningless through a division by 0 (and make light timeless - thus how can it be created or destroyed?)? Doesn't it just make more sense to not have light as a universal speed limit? We have managed to transmit information at rates in excess of light speed and all. We've managed to slow down light to a relative crawl (in atmosphere and at near 0 kelvin I believe). Why should it be easier to believe that time is a variable and light speed in a vacuum is a constant, rather than the other way around? There has to be some logical reason why people believe this and one I am totally ignorant of.

This is actually an extremely reasonable critique, and to be honest you're basically following the logical path that Einstein and his contemporaries went through in the beginning, only in reverse. The difference here, though, is that the experimental evidence came first, and Special Relativity was posed as the explanation.

The original rationale for relativity comes from something called the Michelson-Morley experiment. If you're really interested in it, you should look up the details, but I'll try to give a quick rundown. If you take a light source, split it into two beams, send the beams down tracks at right angles from each other, bounce them off a mirror, and then recombine the beams, you'll wind up forming a diffraction pattern from interference based on the beams traveling different lengths and (if you take the Earth's motion into account) presumably at different relative velocities. Now, mount the entire setup on a rotating platform. As you rotate the experimental apparatus, the direction of the beams with respect to the Earth's motion will change. If the velocity of light depends on the motion of the source or the observers, this rotation means that one light beam is now taking slightly longer or shorter to traverse its track with respect to the other, and the resulting diffraction pattern will change.

This experiment has been performed tens if not hundred of thousands of times. Many such tests were performed in the late 1800's. No change in the diffraction pattern has even been observed. Once you accept this result, you are forced to accept the idea that all inertial observers will measure a constant speed of light. From there, mathematics tells us that in order for mechanics as we know it to be preserved and for all inertial observers to measure the same speed of light, the way we measure velocity must obey certain rules known as the Lorentz transform. All of this was known well before Einstein wrote his paper on SR - and, in fact, SR was itself no great break-through, but merely an extension and formalization of the above.

If that's not enough to convince you, then there's another experimental verification done millions of times a day: GPS navigation systems will not function properly unless a correction is made to take relativistic effects into account.

So the answer to your quandary is that relativity is simply the only available mathematical framework that satisfies observation, and once you accept that certain other physical properties (such as different observers measuring the passage of time differently) must of necessity follow.

Regarding your aside on the stoppage of light, this is a different question entirely, and concerns the passage of light through matter, where the matter itself interacts with the passing photons. The answer to your question is extremely complicated, but it basically boils down to this: depending on how you define what constitutes a photon (not a trivial question in itself), then yes we have stopped light (and even sped it up!) in the lab. However, this is really more of a mathematical quirk based on the fact that what we're looking at is not a single photon, but rather a continuous stream of them. Further, we can't use any of these setups to change the velocity at which information travels, which in the modern parlance is what we physicists tend to mean when we say that c is the universal speed limit.

It just seems to me like a lot of modern physics (from the little I know) seems like kludges and workarounds to explain things that shouldn't be, and like computer code, gets more and more hacky after that.

There's actually quite a bit of truth to this assessment of modern physics. And, in fact, we don't have a universal theory to tie everything together. However, there have been a lot of very very smart hackers working at the problem for more than a century now, and the hacks work very well. What this means is that whatever the final, non-hacky solution is (assuming that one exists), said solution will have to reproduce the results of each of these hacks. That means that there probably is some fundamental truth underlying quantum mechanics, although for the most part the theory boils down to "shut up and calculate." Meta-physical interpretations of the implications of the various postulates of QM and GR are beyond my pay grade.

[chibamonster]

Well if physics is still in, information not being able to travel faster than light is absolutely something researchers are absolutely working to destroy :D. Quantum tunneling seemed pretty promising and I have heard mixed results, but there is a whole wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster-than-light#Ignore_special_relativity) dedicated to the theories people have. I have not been keeping up on this topic recently so I am not going to claim any authority on the matter, but a quick google search shows lots of fun stuff. I guess it doesn't matter until they get it into a chip of some sort though.

The universe is full of weird things. Look what bizzarre properties pop up with super conductors, lasers, carbon nanotubes, and that sweet new fandangled Bose-Einsteinian condensate (which is about as cool as can be). The rules of physics apply... until they don't. Like the black box effect (http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/126649/can_this_black_box_see_into_the_future/) in the global consciousness project :D As gravity and light are not understood I'm not holding my breath for a unified theory any time soon. I personally pull for Tesla's research as it makes the most sense to me (considering that every reaction except nuclear ones is almost all in the movement of electrons, that and the dude created modern society pretty much single handedly) but there are tons of cool things out there. Cellular Automata have been fun.

Aaand... spoilers anyone? So many powerful characters converging in this next chapter! I am getting a bit anxious.

[Ryus]

I've been having a ton of fun reading all your ideas and theories based on Claymore's powers. You'll have stopped arguing and are actually debating :), your putting out serious ideas and a lot of thought into it :D. Plus, if memory serves, this discussion has gotten 3 new member (Aimless, nakaru_mizuki, and me (Ryus)) to the site and the Claymore thread and several others have come back for other parts of the forum just based on this topic, too. So it is clearly a good idea, to many. Aimless seems to really know his stuff (and some others), since he was giving me tons of flashback of Physics class and some great documentaries I've watched. I could really learn something in a FUN WAY. (mental note: give a lot of people some good rep, for starting a cool topic and for eventually cooling off this morning and just continuing the debate.)

I'm beginning to think that we need a new thread: Claymore's Abilities and Powers. (Vague, but it is very clear what it is for and what it isn't for such as X character VS Y character, clearly ownage talk is inappropriate here but power and ability talk is appropriate.)

Now this would have the benefit of not only letting use talk about the source of powers but ALSO let talk about how these abilities could effect the plot (like I just did in the speculation thread). Since it's not speculation but honest feelings (and thought) about powers/enemies (new and old) and debate on how a plot point would/has effect(ed) the plot. THERE WOULD BE NO X character VS Y character talk, so the moderators couldn't object based on that idea. Plus in this case we have a track record of ending the fight and just continuing the discussion. Also this new thread would allow use to move this discussion to a new, more appropriate thread.

If we have a general consensus that this is a good idea lets request it on the new thread requests thread.

[wnmnkh]

ah.... any other chap 90 info other than Cyclone briefly mentioned?

[Aimless]

Well if physics is still in, information not being able to travel faster than light is absolutely something researchers are absolutely working to destroy :D. Quantum tunneling seemed pretty promising and I have heard mixed results, but there is a whole wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster-than-light#Ignore_special_relativity) dedicated to the theories people have.

Yeah; quantum tunneling is really cool, and if they can manage to verifiably transmit information faster than light that would be a really big result. It's not my field, though (I don't do experiment), so I haven't been keeping up with it.

Further, I'm pretty sure such a result is not actually evidence against SR, although it might make us rethink things a bit.

Addendum: This bit about quantum tunneling reminds me of something I've always found funny. Whenever physicists talk to non-physicists about physics, there's a tendency to present results factually, when there are always quibbles and exceptions and approximations and what not when you get down into the nitty-gritty of things (I'm certainly guilty of it, even here in this thread). The most striking example of this is the material taught in Physics classes. We start off by telling students "here's how the world works," and then as soon as they get to the next course in the sequence it's always "everything we taught you last semester is a lie, here's how things really work." This happens over and over, at every level of physics.

There's a reason for this, of course - it's impossible to discuss why the material given in a course is wrong without going into far more depth than is appropriate for that class (usually because the students lack a sufficient mathematical background). The same is true when a physicist tries to explain his work to a lay person - in order to explain why what the physicist just said is a lie, he'd have to get into far more detail than appropriate.

However, this leads to something really funny that happens every once in a while: sometimes popularized accounts of various results from physicists will contain flatly contradictory claims. Of course, each account will be presented as the absolute, true, and final "this is the way things work," because that's just how we tend to talk when we're presenting stuff that we take for granted. Of course, this contradiction will get caught out by the public, and our poor physicist will splutter around for a while trying to figure out how to convince the public that's it's not really a contradiction after all, all the while trying not to use the words "differential operator," "Green's function," "path integral," or "Dirac delta function."

This bit above regarding quantum tunneling is a great example of this. QM and SR say things that are flatly contradictory when presented at the level of a lay person, and to demonstrate why they are not (although it is the case that QM and GR are flatly contradictory) would require a far deeper consideration of the subject than can be given here.

[revan5]

This is actually an extremely reasonable critique, and to be honest you're basically following the logical path that Einstein and his contemporaries went through in the beginning, only in reverse. The difference here, though, is that the experimental evidence came first, and Special Relativity was posed as the explanation.

The original rationale for relativity comes from something called the Michelson-Morley experiment. If you're really interested in it, you should look up the details, but I'll try to give a quick rundown. If you take a light source, split it into two beams, send the beams down tracks at right angles from each other, bounce them off a mirror, and then recombine the beams, you'll wind up forming a diffraction pattern from interference based on the beams traveling different lengths and (if you take the Earth's motion into account) presumably at different relative velocities. Now, mount the entire setup on a rotating platform. As you rotate the experimental apparatus, the direction of the beams with respect to the Earth's motion will change. If the velocity of light depends on the motion of the source or the observers, this rotation means that one light beam is now taking slightly longer or shorter to traverse its track with respect to the other, and the resulting diffraction pattern will change.

This experiment has been performed tens if not hundred of thousands of times. Many such tests were performed in the late 1800's. No change in the diffraction pattern has even been observed. Once you accept this result, you are forced to accept the idea that all inertial observers will measure a constant speed of light. From there, mathematics tells us that in order for mechanics as we know it to be preserved and for all inertial observers to measure the same speed of light, the way we measure velocity must obey certain rules known as the Lorentz transform. All of this was known well before Einstein wrote his paper on SR - and, in fact, SR was itself no great break-through, but merely an extension and formalization of the above.

If that's not enough to convince you, then there's another experimental verification done millions of times a day: GPS navigation systems will not function properly unless a correction is made to take relativistic effects into account.

So the answer to your quandary is that relativity is simply the only available mathematical framework that satisfies observation, and once you accept that certain other physical properties (such as different observers measuring the passage of time differently) must of necessity follow.

Regarding your aside on the stoppage of light, this is a different question entirely, and concerns the passage of light through matter, where the matter itself interacts with the passing photons. The answer to your question is extremely complicated, but it basically boils down to this: depending on how you define what constitutes a photon (not a trivial question in itself), then yes we have stopped light (and even sped it up!) in the lab. However, this is really more of a mathematical quirk based on the fact that what we're looking at is not a single photon, but rather a continuous stream of them. Further, we can't use any of these setups to change the velocity at which information travels, which in the modern parlance is what we physicists tend to mean when we say that c is the universal speed limit.



There's actually quite a bit of truth to this assessment of modern physics. And, in fact, we don't have a universal theory to tie everything together. However, there have been a lot of very very smart hackers working at the problem for more than a century now, and the hacks work very well. What this means is that whatever the final, non-hacky solution is (assuming that one exists), said solution will have to reproduce the results of each of these hacks. That means that there probably is some fundamental truth underlying quantum mechanics, although for the most part the theory boils down to "shut up and calculate." Meta-physical interpretations of the implications of the various postulates of QM and GR are beyond my pay grade.


No universal theory to tie everything together huh? I wonder what some physicists would say about that. Particularly physicists like Brian Greene, who wrote on book on the matter called "The Elegant Universe". His book is on something called String Theory, which is at the cutting edge of physics (and is wildly controversial) and has been dubbed, ahem, the "Theory of Everything".


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/everything.html

For those of you who'd rather hear and see the theory from the man himself on video, here you go. Prepare to have your mind blown. :confused::uhoh::twitch::thinker::topicoff::cool:

"The Elegant Universe" with Brian Greene, string theorist
Parts 1-19

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULlR_pkHjUQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ex7hv-zmheY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8acTvtzMGCE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unJ2ajHH-94&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaazA_1L0Ls&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSru9RUE2zc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-a9eODplcnc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rqmFZsCJiU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ux8gcOFu1g&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AN_xJWOuxFM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9opgupjYhg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieTaOgFcc_U&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3bs-v3BP_o&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_QtXb2txFM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhtfIOpZ3LE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uv6ZvzmY-KU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx5sfxK3Gfo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHU9QuOsSQs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP-HXlZlyII&feature=related


Here's a collection of quotes:

"According to string theory, if we could examine these particles with even greater precision—a precision many orders of magnitude beyond our present technological capacity—we would find that each is not pointlike but instead consists of a tiny, one-dimensional loop. Like an infinitely thin rubber band, each particle contains a vibrating, oscillating, dancing filament that physicists have named a string."

"Although it is by no means obvious, this simple replacement of point-particle material constituents with strings resolves the incompatibility between quantum mechanics and general relativity (which, as currently formulated, cannot both be right). String theory thereby unravels the central Gordian knot of contemporary theoretical physics. This is a tremendous achievement, but it is only part of the reason string theory has generated such excitement."

I see your arguments guys on there being no "Theory of Everything"...and raise you Brian Greene and String Theory. Now go ahead, surprise me by beating him down...if you can. This thread is getting really entertaining. :heh:

[Gangsta Spanksta]

@PureYoki: Sorry, I don't want to argue about science history in relation to popular culture etc right now. It is pointless. Gangsta asked for someone who disagreed and I gave him a source. I can go scouting for other ones, but there is no reason to. The only reason I brought it up with Gangsta was because he was siting equations without applying them to see what would happen if they were actually used. His theory operated under the assumption that readers believed nuclear physics/ astrophysics was as applicable to a fictional story theory as breathing is or human relationships. Also that they even understood what was being said. I took his theory literally to show him just what would be required to make the energy to mass transfer, and offered some equally accepted ideas in physics.

He in turn said we cannot understand each other because I am too close minded and don't believe the scientific method. Interesting.

If you or I had the answers to the discrepancies that appear in different scientific theories, we would NOT be posting them in a forum about comic books.

You do misrepresent me, putting words in my mouth. What I was saying is that your standard in what is acceptable when it comes to putting out theories and speculations is ironically much higher than what would be acceptable using the scientific method, the bits of science that it inherited from philosophy from which it is based on. There are many times people just speculate, and then there are many times the make theories. When talking to you this time, I was also kind of thinking back on the discussion we had last time, where it seemed you required fact or thought of fact for things that were supporting evidence. Supporting evidence is not fact. Also in this discussion I was pointing out that you said the human heart is more valid for a theory than E=MC^2, because it was mentioned in the story. I was pointing out that the mention of human heart was very vague and short, and that basically you are doing what everyone else is doing with the speculation and forming theories with that vague reference and then using supporting evidence, some of which is not mention in the story, for only human heart is, vaguely. I was saying that doing so, really doesn't make your theory anymore stronger than speculation and theories based on things not directly mentioned in the manga, but they fit, and the person making speculation or theory can show how it works using examples in the manga. I think your own personal standards are somewhat more close minded than the scientific method which has its roots in philosophy which teaches to be open minded.

Scientific method (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method) refers to bodies of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge. To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning.[1] A scientific method consists of the collection of data through observation and experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses.[2]

Not everything you observe is fact. theories are weaker than facts. Supporting evidence is weaker than fact. In fact, Scientist don't say something is so when they talk about theories. Some politicians have taken advantage of that in the past, pointing that scientist won't say certain things are facts for example in causes of global warming. The most a theory is, is a "more likely than not" and it is totally open to be proven wrong by another theory. E=MC^2 is a theory not fact, ready to be replaced by a better theory if it comes out. Like I say, I think the scientific method is very open minded. I am not saying that all scientist follow this open mindedness,

As for my theory, I am sorry to say that I have not made one yet, or worked hard enough to make one yet in this case. I was speculating on things in what was at first a friendly environment. I think speculation has low standards, lower than a theory, which has lower standards than a fact. And nothing I said operated under any assumption of any reader but myself. I was saying: this is what I think. I am very open to other ideas. And you may see a problem with the amount of energy involved in the transformation, but 1) I never said my view of the claymore world was scientific alone, just that I prefered some physics than brining in magic, in the particular story since there seems no need to. 2) I have no problems with the amount of energy used; it may seem much to you; it may not be much in the grand scheme of things: Abyssal Ones do get pretty close to demigodhood. :) Anyway, the huge amounts of energy don't seem anymore ridiculous to me than human heart, which is something I actually support myself. I was trying to point out that using physics isn't anymore silly than using concepts like human heart. Again, I'm not the one who is saying one speculation is better than the other, and that the standards you set are too high IMO as in what we have to reference in the manga. I say, supporting evidence is good enough if the manga can support it and things work logically with it existence. E=MC^2 does not need to be mentioned by Riful in the story for us to speculate on it. I guess I better stop here; there are many things I want to still point out, especially about what I was trying to say about plausibility as a concept, but I feel the more involved in this discussion I get, the more of a nuisance I will make myself to the other readers. :heh:

[Aimless]

I see your arguments guys on there being no "Theory of Everything"...and raise you Brian Greene and String Theory. Now go ahead, surprise me by beating him down...if you can. This thread is getting really entertaining. :heh:

Don't get me started on String Theory. To begin with, it's not even a true theory, yet, since they've made no testable predictions. As it stands, all String Theory is is a mathematical framework that purports to be able to describe everything. Furthermore, it's not even fully self consistent yet, nor do we even know which of the great many varieties of String Theories (yes, there are multiple formulations) corresponds to our actual universe. ;)

String Theorists not withstanding, there is no fully developed self-consistent Theory of Everything.

[Cyclone]

@Aimless:
Thank you for explaination. I learned something today and I really appriciate it. At least I finally know where the theory came from. Thank you for taking the time to explain it to me - been reading the wiki pages for the eperiments you mentioned till now.

It'll take me some more time (probably a lot more) to digest the information. Ideas like gravity (the Earth's mass derailing the experiment) and light simply not needing a median to travel through popped into my head, but I have not had a chance to ponder the implications of either. I'll leave it the subject in the hands of you and your collegues - eventually someone will sort it all out.

[revan5]

Don't get me started on String Theory. To begin with, it's not even a true theory, yet, since they've made no testable predictions. As it stands, all String Theory is is a mathematical framework that purports to be able to describe everything. Furthermore, it's not even fully self consistent yet, nor do we even know which of the great many varieties of String Theories (yes, there are multiple formulations) corresponds to our actual universe. ;)

String Theorists not withstanding, there is no fully developed self-consistent Theory of Everything.

I believe if you were to look up parts 15-19, you'd find the part on M theory, which purports to unify all the disparate String theories into one theory of everything. I'm sure you'd find it interesting...now, if only they could test this bad boy mathematical framework and make it a testable theory. Tell you what, you track down Brian Greene and get back to us on your community's debates. I'm sure it'd prove highly entertaining.

The part that gets me is for the equation to work, there needs to be something like 11 extra dimensions. No doubt this provides an "out" for those who somehow think we'll be able to someday use a "warp drive". Still off-scale weird though...but its hard to resist watching the show on it.

[Stream]

クレイモア
リフル討伐へ西へと向かうアリシアとベス
ラボナのミリアたちもその大きな妖気の動きを察知していた
そこにヘレンとデネヴからの伝言を託されたディートリヒが来訪する
報告を受けたことで、事態を把握し、西の地を案じるミリアたち
一方、西のクレアたちは森でダフと遭遇していた
何とか気付かれずにやり過ごそうとしたものの、ユマが捕まってしまう
強固なダフにてこずり、ユマの捕まれた片足を切断することで
何とか逃げ延び一息付く三人だったが
クレアが単独でダフの後をつけリフルの根城へ向かおうとする
何故？と思い止まらせようとする二人に対し、
ラファエラに会わなければならない、自分でも説明できない思いを口にするクレア
6月号につづく.

glad to see miria again after N months........（n=)*—￥#（）
and poor yuma lost her leg....

ps
it's 2 April here so it's all up to you...
Many thanks to Gene@tss for posting this here. Much appreciated! :D

Now, for the...

TRANSLATION!

CLAYMORE
Alicia and Beth and head to west to defeat Riful.
Miria's group in Rabona senses the movements of that large youki.
Dietrich arrives with word from Helen and Deneve there.
With the reception of the report, understanding the situation, Miria's group worries over the land of the west.
Meanwhile, Clare's group in the west encounters Dauf.
Having somehow noticed, Yuma tried to take on too much and has been captured.
Unable to handle Dauf's fortitude, Yuma was caught with one of her legs cut off.
Somehow making good their escape, the three take a quick break.
Clare heads out alone towards the stronghold of Riful who is always behind Dauf.
Why? The two opposed decided to give up on the plan.
She has to meet Rafaela; I myself cannot explain Clare's feelings/reasons.
To be continued in the June issue.

NOTE: I always seem to have to say whenever I translate a spoiler, so you BETTER PAY ATTENTION! The current issue (Yes, the issue released April 4th) is the May issue. The June issue is released on May 4th. So! There will be an issue next month.

If anyone again quotes my post and complains that there is no issue next month (This happened last month, even though I posted the SAME notice, ffs.), please do not hesitate to tell them that they should READ the WHOLE post before they open their mouths and jump to stupid conclusions. Sorry, I'm getting sick of this. :(

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Oh, btw Gansta, this latest spoiler had the magic lines you wanted - you missed them - says "says continued in isuse 6" - not quite the same as the month... but close enough

No, it's not the same. It has to say two months, make some new forum member think that there will be no issue next month, for it to be a real spoiler. Honestly, the true spoilers are the only ones to include that line since I've been here. The fake spoiler guys haven't caught on yet, but I suppose they eventually will.

[Aimless]

@Aimless:
Thank you for explaination. I learned something today and I really appriciate it. At least I finally know where the theory came from. Thank you for taking the time to explain it to me - been reading the wiki pages for the eperiments you mentioned till now.

It'll take me some more time (probably a lot more) to digest the information. Ideas like gravity (the Earth's mass derailing the experiment) and light simply not needing a median to travel through popped into my head, but I have not had a chance to ponder the implications of either. I'll leave it the subject in the hands of you and your collegues - eventually someone will sort it all out.

Welcome. Unfortunately, the subject is difficult enough that to give more than a cursory overview of things would basically require teaching a formal course on relativity, but I may be able to help you out if you have any quibbles.

I believe if you were to look up parts 15-19, you'd find the part on M theory, which purports to unify all the disparate String theories into one theory of everything. I'm sure you'd find it interesting...now, if only they could test this bad boy mathematical framework and make it a testable theory. Tell you what, you track down Brian Greene and get back to us on your community's debates. I'm sure it'd prove highly entertaining.

Two points here: first, what M-Theory managed to prove was that the various mathematical models of String Theory were all subsets of one big over-arching model. Unfortunately, this didn't narrow the field - in fact, it broadened it - and did nothing to resolve the problem that we still don't know how to collapse the model down until we get something that behaves like our Universe.

Secondly, the theory of everything that I tend to favor is Loop Quantum Gravity. ;)

[Cyclone]

ah.... any other chap 90 info other than Cyclone briefly mentioned?

I was just talking about the spoiler posted by gene on page 7 of this thread.

From what I understand of it (and I only lightly skimmed it - have not attempted to make a REAL translation of it [this is from memory from first reading too]):

Alicia and Beth are on the way to fight Riful.
Miria's group in Rabona notices large youki moving.
They meet up somewhere with Helen, Deneve and Dietrich who fills them in on what's going on.
Meanwhile in a forest in the west, Clare's group runs into Duff. Yuma is caught by Duff who makes her lose a leg. Clare decides to fight solo.

The last bit I don't totally understand, but I think it's somehting along the lines:
Clare finds herself asking herself asking: why? why can't she stop herself from wanting to talk to Raphaela.

Continued in the June Issue...

Original message:


クレイモア
リフル討伐へ西へと向かうアリシアとベス
ラボナのミリアたちもその大きな妖気の動きを察知していた
そこにヘレンとデネヴからの伝言を託されたディートリヒが来訪する
報告を受けたことで、事態を把握し、西の地を案じるミリアたち
一方、西のクレアたちは森でダフと遭遇していた
何とか気付かれずにやり過ごそうとしたものの、ユマが捕まってしまう
強固なダフにてこずり、ユマの捕まれた片足を切断することで
何とか逃げ延び一息付く三人だったが
クレアが単独でダフの後をつけリフルの根城へ向かおうとする
何故？と思い止まらせようとする二人に対し、
ラファエラに会わなければならない、自分でも説明できない思いを口にするクレア
6月号につづく.

glad to see miria again after N months........（n=)*—￥#（）
and poor yuma lost her leg....

ps
it's 2 April here so it's all up to you...

---

edit: nevermind - someone beat me to a better translation - use that

[Ryus]

NOTE: I always seem to have to say whenever I translate a spoiler, so you BETTER PAY ATTENTION! The current issue (Yes, the issue released April 4th) is the May issue. The June issue is released on May 4th. So! There will be an issue next month.



I can't wait for Saturday! I only have some much wall to bash my head into left!:upset:

Plus I can't sleep, Thinks I got concuss ions... Sleep is bad in heafth I am in. :eyespin:

[revan5]

Welcome. Unfortunately, the subject is difficult enough that to give more than a cursory overview of things would basically require teaching a formal course on relativity, but I may be able to help you out if you have any quibbles.



Two points here: first, what M-Theory managed to prove was that the various mathematical models of String Theory were all subsets of one big over-arching model. Unfortunately, this didn't narrow the field - in fact, it broadened it - and did nothing to resolve the problem that we still don't know how to collapse the model down until we get something that behaves like our Universe.

Secondly, the theory of everything that I tend to favor is Loop Quantum Gravity. ;)

Well Aimless, why didn't you counter string theory with that when I first brought it up? When you have time, you should post something on that.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

:D Finally a believable spoiler. It's a bit vague on the details but seems plausible, and has the magic words at the end. :D Anyway, I hope that none of the fake spoiler writers read this forum. Anyway, this spoiler does make sense. Clare is the kind to go off alone. Rubel did ask her to help Raph, but Clare would've gone for Renee alone. Miria meeting Dietrich is something we've been waiting for. I hope this spoiler is the right one.

[Cyclone]

No, it's not the same. It has to say two months, make some new forum member think that there will be no issue next month, for it to be a real spoiler. Honestly, the true spoilers are the only ones to include that line since I've been here. The fake spoiler guys haven't caught on yet, but I suppose they eventually will.

My bad - double checked when making my last post - it does say june issue (june = 6 followed by the kanji for month. I just remembered the 6 when I posted).


@ClearAcid
Thank you as well for the info.

[yezhanquan]

Like I ask again: Any news from our Chinese friends?

[Gangsta Spanksta]

I
Clare finds herself asking herself asking: why? why can't she stop herself from wanting to talk to Raphaela.


I like that line so far. Rubel knows how to push Clare's buttons. I really think this is the true spoiler. That last bit of thought from Clare is something most fake spoiler writers aren't creative enough to come up with, or as a bit of a armature writer I appreciate it.

[Cyclone]

Like I ask again: Any news from our Chinese friends?

Whay are you asking us? I'm sure you can read chinese a lot better than me (because I can't). So far though I have found nothing on any of the usual sites.

[yezhanquan]

Whay are you asking us? I'm sure you can read chinese a lot better than me (because I can't). So far though I have found nothing on any of the usual sites.

Oh, sorry. ;)

Well, I can search in Chinese, but there are some here who can get hold of the Chinese scans faster than my efforts. Happened in the past.

[chibamonster]

You do misrepresent me, putting words in my mouth. What I was saying is that your standard in what is acceptable when it comes to putting out theories and speculations is ironically much higher than what would be acceptable using the scientific method, the bits of science that it inherited from philosophy from which it is based on. There are many times people just speculate, and then there are many times the make theories. When talking to you this time, I was also kind of thinking back on the discussion we had last time, where it seemed you required fact or thought of fact for things that were supporting evidence. Supporting evidence is not fact. Also in this discussion I was pointing out that you said the human heart is more valid for a theory than E=MC^2, because it was mentioned in the story. I was pointing out that the mention of human heart was very vague and short, and that basically you are doing what everyone else is doing with the speculation and forming theories with that vague reference and then using supporting evidence, some of which is not mention in the story, for only human heart is, vaguely. I was saying that doing so, really doesn't make your theory anymore stronger than speculation and theories based on things not directly mentioned in the manga, but they fit, and the person making speculation or theory can show how it works using examples in the manga. I think your own personal standards are somewhat more close minded than the scientific method which has its roots in philosophy which teaches to be open minded.

Scientific method (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method) refers to bodies of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge. To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning.[1] A scientific method consists of the collection of data through observation and experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses.[2]

Not everything you observe is fact. theories are weaker than facts. Supporting evidence is weaker than fact. In fact, Scientist don't say something is so when they talk about theories. Some politicians have taken advantage of that in the past, pointing that scientist won't say certain things are facts for example in causes of global warming. The most a theory is, is a "more likely than not" and it is totally open to be proven wrong by another theory. E=MC^2 is a theory not fact, ready to be replaced by a better theory if it comes out. Like I say, I think the scientific method is very open minded. I am not saying that all scientist follow this open mindedness,

As for my theory, I am sorry to say that I have not made one yet, or worked hard enough to make one yet in this case. I was speculating on things in what was at first a friendly environment. I think speculation has low standards, lower than a theory, which has lower standards than a fact. And nothing I said operated under any assumption of any reader but myself. I was saying: this is what I think. I am very open to other ideas. And you may see a problem with the amount of energy involved in the transformation, but 1) I never said my view of the claymore world was scientific alone, just that I prefered some physics than brining in magic, in the particular story since there seems no need to. 2) I have no problems with the amount of energy used; it may seem much to you; it may not be much in the grand scheme of things: Abyssal Ones do get pretty close to demigodhood. :) Anyway, the huge amounts of energy don't seem anymore ridiculous to me than human heart, which is something I actually support myself. I was trying to point out that using physics isn't anymore silly than using concepts like human heart. Again, I'm not the one who is saying one speculation is better than the other, and that the standards you set are too high IMO as in what we have to reference in the manga. I say, supporting evidence is good enough if the manga can support it and things work logically with it existence. E=MC^2 does not need to be mentioned by Riful in the story for us to speculate on it. I guess I better stop here; there are many things I want to still point out, especially about what I was trying to say about plausibility as a concept, but I feel the more involved in this discussion I get, the more of a nuisance I will make myself to the other readers. :heh:

Let's see... One reference to the manga with mentioning abyssal ones in that whole abstract post. You know my standards are higher than that. At the level of abstraction you are operating on in that post no points can be made on anything. It is all too ambiguous. This is why I prefer using CLAYMORE as the discussion medium. You will never get in trouble for avoiding a hypothetical question and doing so is in your best interest.

And still the human heart is in the story, mentioned and described many times. You can think it is silly, but it is actually in there. Don't blame me for it being in the story, Yagi put it there. It is not my theory, it is actually in the story, like Clare and Teresa, or are they just my theory as well? Really! Go look! It is translated different ways (as fan subs often are), so sometimes the translators say human mind, will, human consciousness, or just mind in some translations, but it actually appears in the context of Claymore. Come to think of it, it is introduced quite literally in the fourth chapter :D.

"We have to control the youma power within ourselves through our human will to survive. Simply put, we are half human half demons with human heads attached to a youma's body." (Claymore 4, 21)

Maybe the translations you are reading are bad. I know that each time I check the raws I find the original japanese text to have many more surprises and much more depth than the english.

[FragrantFlora]

This calls for celebration. Looks like Riful isn't gonna be pathetically taken down in 1 chapter.:D

[Gangsta Spanksta]

@Chiba:

:D Ah what's the use? Any point that I try to make you don't get or choose not to get, ignore it, and then go off with the sarcastic commentary that paint things differently, talking down to a person as if they were a kindergardener when they are obviously not. Things I mentioned most certainly were in the manga, like Claymores eating a little, getting a vast amount of energy from it, which they are able to store, but yet you make it seem that you are the only one who uses supporting evidence from the story. I really haven't tried to blow down anybody theories. I'm just stating my opinion that sometimes I think your standard on what is admissible speculation wise are to high. Speculation is what it is, it need not a character in Claymore talking about it for it to be admissible. Someone mentioning something also does not necessarily mean the rest of the supporting details in a theory make it stand. There are also certain things the reader finds plausible without mention, like the breathing of air, the electrocution from lightening, which I was using to show that not everything needs to be mentioned in a story, and to further that I linked it with the concept of Plausibility in writing, but instead addressing what I thought the obvious point, you called the lightning example a hypothetical, when it was used to describe real world things that the reader accepts and expects to be true without mention from Clare or Teresa. I guess I really suck at making points. :p

[MisterJB]

WTF has Tabitha done to her hair? She tried to copy Miria and failed miserably:frustrated:
I liked her ponytail. Girl, stop trying to be like Miria and get your own personality

[chibamonster]

Holy cow it is a real japanese raw!

[Gangsta Spanksta]

http://i42.tinypic.com/m97ukw.jpg

woah! Clare! Dang, she's ruthless. :D

[FragrantFlora]

Yuma lost an arm and now her shank. Dauf is like you NegativeDark. He's also fond of Yuma. Hehe. I'm kind of disappointed. I expected an Alicia battle T_T

[wnmnkh]

It is indeed out...

[Gangsta Spanksta]

A lot of Talking in this chapter. Tabitha has a new hairstyle. Miria, Galatea and Dietrich all having a discussion. Not much action.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

http://i42.tinypic.com/m97ukw.jpg

And this is why you don't follow Clare. :heh:

Edit:

Anyway, this chapter brings up one of Cyclone's situations. Do you guys all trust Dietrich?

[chibamonster]

It seems that Deitrich has a nickname and a hobby concerning Galatea. And if by "not much action" you mean a game of hide and seek with free moving free standing Duff which was awesome, also Alicia taking out a forest in leaps and bounds, and Miria phantoming behind a cloaked warrior I guess you could say that.

Looks like Miria is going to have to make a decision here pretty quick.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

:D I can't really judge until there is a good translation. But by action, I generally think of fighting versus hide and seek. Then again, you have the advantage of being able to read the words which can add to the scene. I don't think most the images would find their way into an MMV though.

[FragrantFlora]

Dietrich is being awfully nice to runaways for being a claymore under the organization. Up to this point, she's still free to choose which side she's gonna side on.

[Sleepy Speculator]

lol Clare cut of Yuma's leg...

too many reasons why that's exactly what you'd expect from her.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

;) I wonder if getting rid of two followers so that she could go alone to Riful's had anything to do with it. Anyway, this is good. I kind of want Clare to end up with Priscilla somehow.

[Squawks]

Post some more bro.

[MisterJB]

Is it just me or Dauf doesn't know how to walk straight?

[PureYoki]

However, if we consider the Claymores themselves, as they awaken they certainly gain access to new reserves of youki. Clare, in particular, has greatly increased her total energy reserves by half-awakening. Whether this increase in energy reserves is contingent upon the change of form, or that energy was already present and merely sealed in some sense I'm not sure.

I believe claymores and ABs have their energy stored in their bodies in some form like ATP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adenosine_triphosphate) in humans. If there really is an increase in energy reserves due to change of form/release of yoki, the potential implication is that they are drawing yoki/energy from an outside source since the energy is not inside them. I won't make a long explanation to elaborate why it doesn't make sense to me, I'll just stick to my theory that states the size of reserves is constant.

Clare has Teresa's flesh inside her, so we know she has vast amounts of yoki reserves. She's only a quarter-yoma, probably a big part of the reserves is locked and has to be unlocked step by step. (Not to mention, she's the main protagonist and protagonists have a bad habit of disobeying rules. :D)

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Post some more bro.

Well the Yuma getting her leg chopped off was my favorite pic. Second favorite scene is Clare attacking duffs face, again. I didn't find the action overall memorable; there is a quite a bit. The chapters with the Zacs were easier for me to find things that I liked to show. This chapter might be cool depending on what is said.

Anyway, what do you guys think of Tabitha's new style?

http://i40.tinypic.com/1566046.jpg