[Anime] Umineko - Spoilers & Expectations (for experienced VN readers only)

[Jan-Poo]

well I thought Kinzo was already dead since episode1 myself ^^;
My reason was that the talk to Natsuhi was incompatible to what had been shown about Kinzo till that point. My conclusion was that it couldn't be Kinzo but someone else.
Of course anime viewers do not have such detailed infos about how much Kinzo despises his whole family.

If the witch is real following through with the riddle means that she loses so there is no gain there.

The reasoning in itself is correct, but again he lacks enough elements to come to seemingly preposterous conclusion that the witch doesn't want to win.

[MarthX]

I just timed myself going through where the anime left off. (no ctrl, s or o) Took 10 minutes excluding the end roll. Calling it now, the tea party will make up at least half of episode 5. I think the tea party starting after the commercial break would be best.

[Jan-Poo]

I don't know... are they really going to do 10 minutes for that? Half episode for the tea party was my initial assumption when the anime aired the first time, however I'm not so sure now. There's really very little left of Episode1 so my guess is that Beatrice will show up much earlier.

[MarthX]

I'm thinking they'll do a end roll of their own which will take up a few minutes. The end roll is kind of important with Maria's letter and letting you know that the survivors went missing.

[Alaya]

They could show shots of text instead of rolling credit for the conclusion of the first game. It should be quicker to read and consume less time.

BTW, I've just read the final chapter of the manga and
it shows Beatrice in the game board after Natsuhi is killed, just before the clock strike midnight. I really would like to see how DEEN will work with that scene.

[Jan-Poo]

The preview shows that already.

[maximilianjenus]

no, the preview shows somethign slightly different, I think someone used the butterflies as a way to differentiate the scenes.

[Alaya]

The preview shows that already.

From the preview, we still not sure that Beatrice is in the game board or in the purgatory. In final chapter of EP1 manga, Beatrice is shown but she does not have a single dialog, only show her sinister smile side by side with Maria. Let me post it in the spoiler.


http://upic.me/i/hn/21_2728.jpg

http://upic.me/i/42/21_4344.jpg

http://upic.me/i/98/21_49.jpg

http://upic.me/i/ja/21_5152.jpg

Please don't mind the language, they are written in Thai.

I doubt DEEN will follow the manga because it would consume a lot of time. For me, Tea Party and ??? are more important so they should spend more time in the episode for those stuffs.

[Jan-Poo]

From the preview, we still not sure that Beatrice is in the game board or in the purgatory. In final chapter of EP1 manga, Beatrice is shown but she does not have a single dialog, only show her sinister smile side by side with Maria. Let me post it in the spoiler.

Well from what I've seen in the preview the background looks like the mansion at night. I might be wrong but anyway we will see it soon enough.

[MayumiHime]

2-1　Middle game
2-2　Early queen move
2-3　Weak square
2-4　Skewer
2-5　Accept

Are they real? D: It's from rokkenjima livejournal.

Sorry if it's a repost. >_<

[maximilianjenus]

The problem is thast the manga is not canon itself, the base is the novel and such scene does not exist in it.

[Alaya]

The problem is thast the manga is not canon itself, the base is the novel and such scene does not exist in it.

That could be, however the manga artist of Umineko EP1 is quite close to Ryuukishi (in my country, there is a joke that Natsumi Kei sensei and Ryuukishi san should wed each other :P Oh BTW, Natsumi Kei sensei is a woman, who could really draw a creepy moe girl...), so the chance that him checking the manga's manuscript is quite high.

But the scene that is shown of course, should be a false information.

[Usami_Haru]

Wait Ryukishi-sama metioned that it where a big hint in the manga that werent included in thesound novel, couldnt this scene be the hint then or something?

[TsundereCake]

http://upic.me/i/hn/21_2728.jpg

http://upic.me/i/42/21_4344.jpg

http://upic.me/i/98/21_49.jpg

http://upic.me/i/ja/21_5152.jpg



...... O_O Do people really not remember this scene? Or are you guys talking about another scene that in the novel "doesn't exist"? :heh: I remember this part very clearly from the VN ._.

[Jan-Poo]

yes and no. what you can see there follow the description of the novel, however Beatrice's sprite doesn't appear, she doesn't really talk, so the player is left with the impression that maybe Beatrice isn't really there, maybe in the darkness they are mistaking someone else for Beatrice, or maybe there isn't even a person there, and Battler in the midst of all that madness is starting to see something that doesn't exist.
The manga doesn't leave you with such doubt.

[TsundereCake]

Well, the mangaka obviously didn't draw Beato's eyes in those panels on purpose, so the "mistaking someone else for Beatrice" can still apply. Othewise, since I can't read Thai, I can't tell who all is talking in the panels, so I can't determine if Beato talks, and the issue of "seeing something that doesn't exist" is possible all over this series with all the Stakes, Kanons, Shannons, and Sietas flying around XDD

All I'm trying to say is that I think the manga is a perfectly good representation of what happens in the novel, and I hope the anime does something similar^^;

[Jan-Poo]

Ah it's not like I'm complaining about this. Being that vague in the manga wasn't really feasible. Well Natsumi could have just draw a shadow, but that apart is all right, I guess.

The point is that the VN was well designed to leave the shoking part at the very end. Once you are totally sure you will never see Beatrice, BAM there she is, showing up in front of you.

But the manga and the anime cannot achieve that because Beatrice's images are circling already.

[TsundereCake]

I'm not really directing that at you, Jan-Poo^^; It's just that some people are saying it like that scene doesn't happen at all^^;


That is true about the possibility of never seeing Beato though (atleast until the end DUNDUNDUUUUUUUUN~~~!!!)

[June 1983]

In regards to the conversation going onto the Anime only theory thread about whether the gold really exists ... I think it is unfortunately impossible for us to make the anime viewers understand why they should consider that it might or probably does, because neither the anime nor the VN at this point has explained the nature of "magic", and how it requires a risk in order to work. I think that's explained in Ep 2? But maybe it's 3.

[Kitsu]

It's actually explained in Ep 1

[Jan-Poo]

Kanon explains in the ep4 of the anime, what's "magic" according to Kinzo. And that is what Klash is talking about, either way he wouldn't have mentioned that.

[maximilianjenus]

I notice that when somethig spoilerific happens, instead of giving it importance, moving the conversation to a different direction (even if slightly) works better than pointing out thespoiler.

[Mizutama]

I don't really remember what they said in the novel anymore, but here's a translation of what's said in those thai pages.

Natsuhi: --to decide who is more suitable for the position as the next head of the family.
Natsuhi: Between I, Ushiromiya Natsuhi
Natsuhi: Or you, the witch Beatrice!!

Natsuhi: Very well! Then I shall honor your decision to settle this

(I can't tell who): Rest in peace, my beloved witch Beatrice
Battler: Shut up!! I told you to stop sprouting that stupid story!!

[MeoTwister5]

Are we not allowed to discuss with them in the speculation thread about Kinzo's concept of magic that only when one risks so much for even greater rewards with high chances of losing will his magic even work?

As it stands, there's only one scene in the entire game that could be any sort of evidence on the gold's actual existence, and it's smack dab in the middle of the game's biggest mindfuck of Ep3 so using it as evidence is itself questionable.

Heck, I can only imagine that should viewers start thinking of it as evidence to its existence and only experience the end of that game, the amount of cerebral carnage that would ensue.

[Alaya]

Well, the mangaka obviously didn't draw Beato's eyes in those panels on purpose, so the "mistaking someone else for Beatrice" can still apply. Othewise, since I can't read Thai, I can't tell who all is talking in the panels, so I can't determine if Beato talks, and the issue of "seeing something that doesn't exist" is possible all over this series with all the Stakes, Kanons, Shannons, and Sietas flying around XDD


Only Natsuhi (in the first page), Maria (in the third page left panel) and Battler are talking. No single dialogue from Beatrice.

I think Beatrice in the manga is a representation of everyone starting to believe that Beatrice exists, so she appears in front of everyone eyes. My guess is; it doesn't really mean she's there, it just an illusion of someone being there. BTW, the manga also have tea party chapter after the final chapter of EP1.

Again, I really don't think DEEN will put this in. It would be much better to keep full Beatrice appearance in Tea Party.

[Jan-Poo]

I don't really remember what they said in the novel anymore, but here's a translation of what's said in those thai pages.


That's pretty much the same in the novel.

Are we not allowed to discuss with them in the speculation thread about Kinzo's concept of magic that only when one risks so much for even greater rewards with high chances of losing will his magic even work?

As it stands, there's only one scene in the entire game that could be any sort of evidence on the gold's actual existence, and it's smack dab in the middle of the game's biggest mindfuck of Ep3 so using it as evidence is itself questionable.


Guys, Kinzo's concept of magic was stated by Kanon in ep4 of the anime, there's nothing wrong in discussing it.

About the evidence, once you get to Ep3, nothing serves as an evidence anymore except the red truth, and maybe Battler's perspective. In other words we don't have any better evidence of the gold existence than them.

[June 1983]

:p Personally, I never really internalized Kanon's dialogue as being Kinzo's philosophy of magic -- I don't know why, as it clearly is, but while I knew he was talking about the ceremony, I guess I just didn't establish that metaphor in my mind in that way; I thought of it more as a generalized metaphor for the entire situation rather than being specifically about magic. It wasn't until Kinzo went into detail about it -- and I can't remember now if that was in EP 2 or already in EP 1 (I know Kinzo talked about chess and roulette in EP 1). Anyway, the anime watchers don't seem to have understood the concept of risk and magic, but I don't know if that's just because that scene hasn't really come up yet, or because the anime has failed.

[Jan-Poo]

Uhm in the novel Kinzo explains the concept just after being called for lunch by Krauss. The concept was later reiterated by Kanon in the boiler room scene.

The anime omitted the first and included the second.

I guess anime watchers do not have enough reasons to think what Kanon said is the absolute truth, however at this point of the story the reader/watcher is supposed to be accostumed with this concept.

[MeoTwister5]

Uhm in the novel Kinzo explains the concept just after being called for lunch by Krauss. The concept was later reiterated by Kanon in the boiler room scene.

The anime omitted the first and included the second.

I guess anime watchers do not have enough reasons to think what Kanon said is the absolute truth, however at this point of the story the reader/watcher is supposed to be accostumed with this concept.

This actually leads me to the problem of how to accept the things "said" by Kinxo during the days on Rokkenjima island given the fact that his true status is confirmed in Ep4. If he is indeed dead even before the Games start, then how true and/or accurate even are the words he supposedly says during the Games when he was never even alive to say them in the first place?

[maximilianjenus]

One of the anime-only watchers actually got a nice clue on that, he said that kinzo throwing his ring happened way before the family meeting, as the storm is completely different.

[MeoTwister5]

Well imagine the resulting mindrape once the truth about Kinzo is revealed in the anime.:eyespin::eyespin::eyespin:

[Jan-Poo]

This actually leads me to the problem of how to accept the things "said" by Kinxo during the days on Rokkenjima island given the fact that his true status is confirmed in Ep4. If he is indeed dead even before the Games start, then how true and/or accurate even are the words he supposedly says during the Games when he was never even alive to say them in the first place?

You can only have "faith" that Ryukishi isn't mindfucking us to that extent. In other words I and many others believe that even the fake/magic scenes contain something real and some relevant significance. If they are just plain bullshits it would be really lame.

Then again there is the speculation that Kinzo's scenes are actually events of the past. However not all the scenes involving Kinzo can be explained just with that.

[Freelii]

You can only have "faith" that Ryukishi isn't mindfucking us to that extent. In other words I and many others believe that even the fake/magic scenes contain something real and some relevant significance. If they are just plain bullshits it would be really lame.

For example,

As I recall, there is a magic scene where a certain someone's body is moved through that black hole in order to seperate the two that were close. Of course, that sort of magic is impossible, so what this scene might imply is that either a body was literally moved, or they never died there in the first place.

or...

The scene where a question is asked of the cousins. George's answer is extremely revealing about his character if true. He'd sacrifice everyone for the sake of himself and Shannon? While it occurs during a magic scene, that might be an important thing to take away from it.

There's also the bit where Jessica is teleported mid-fight, so that George and Jessica end up killing each other. Teleporting is obviously impossible, but should we take away from this scene that they mortally wounded each other after being provoked by the question? Or was it COMPLETELY made up, and in fact George and Jessica's deaths had nothing to do with each other?

The reason I bring these up in this thread is that I'm really depending on the anime to have slight differences from the VN. Any change from the original VN story may be an indication that the changed element was a red herring.

For example, Kanon is now one of my top suspects for Episode 1 because the anime never showed him dying. Other scenes, like the discovery of Eva and Hideyoshi's bodies revealed that the room may not have been closed at all, because the chain was already cut when Battler showed up. We can't possibly determine when it was cut, meaning the scene where Genji and Kanon supposed discover the locked door may be fake, and instead it was the time of the murder. Genji served as a look out, and Kanon killed Eva and Hideyoshi.

But I digress, my main purpose was to elaborate on the point Jan-Poo made.

[Kitsu]

The scene where a question is asked of the cousins. George's answer is extremely revealing about his character if true. He'd sacrifice everyone for the sake of himself and Shannon? While it occurs during a magic scene, that might be an important thing to take away from it.


he said that in Ep 2 already. I didn't notice it back then but after rereading it yesterday.... in a non magic scene (well you could argue it was a magic scene

[Freelii]

he said that in Ep 2 already. I didn't notice it back then but after rereading it yesterday.... in a non magic scene (well you could argue it was a magic scene

Looks like it's definately time for me to go back and re-read the VNs :heh:

[jdlkem]

If DEEN plays "Thank you for giving birth...", I'll cry and give the series a 12.7/10.

[Christen]

Of course they'll play that, it's one of the signature tracks.

[Mikachiru]

If DEEN plays "Thank you for giving birth...", I'll cry and give the series a 12.7/10.

Which song was that again...?:heh:

[k//eternal]

生まれてきてくれてありがとう

My second-favorite track in the game (after miragecoordinator), haha.

[Kitsu]

EQxTxSrsLc4

That one, right?

Edit. k//eternal beat me to it

[k//eternal]

Yep, that. Beautiful, beautiful track.

Slightly spoilerish pic on the video, though :heh:

[Kitsu]

Spoilers & Expectations (for experienced VN readers only)



That's why I thought no need for spoiler tag..but I will change that

[Mikachiru]

生まれてきてくれてありがとう

My second-favorite track in the game (after miragecoordinator), haha.

Oh, that one. I only recognize the title when it's in japanese. XD

Thanks for clarifying.;)

[k//eternal]

That's why I thought no need for spoiler tag..but I will change that

For some reason I confused this with the music discussion thread, probably because we were talking about music. My bad, no problem on your end :heh:

[TsundereCake]

YAY FOR JESSIE-SAMA~~!!!!! http://umineko.tv/web/main/onair/index.html

[ameskitty]

YAY FOR JESSIE-SAMA~~!!!!! http://umineko.tv/web/main/onair/index.html

AND ANGSTY KANON~~!

That song seems to have a pretty brisk tempo. Gee, I wonder what it could be :D? (do it DEEN do it!!!)

[k//eternal]

It's obviously 生まれてきてくれてありがとう.

Also, SHAMEIMARU

[ameskitty]

It's obviously 生まれてきてくれてありがとう.

Why would Jessica sing any other song ;)?

[Christen]

I saw Reimu in the background. It must be that song!!

EDIT: TOMITAKE FLASH!!

[shokku]

if it really is that song, then I wonder if they had Marina Inoue sing it...

[Ssol]

I like the original version of 黄金の影修正版（ラック眼力） better than the one with vocals or the one in this preview. We'll see what they use in the anime. I wonder how many of the pre-Oct.4 events they'll cover in this next episode, can't wait. :)

[MarthX]

That episode looks great. Furthest it shows is the tea party on the beach too. Will this episode also have excellent pacing?

[chronotrig]

I think it's only natural that 2-1 will have to sacrifice a lot of scenes.
Fortunately, things speed up earlier in EP2, so they only need to risk rushing through slow-paced stuff in one TV episode.

After EP 1-5, you really couldn't afford to show more than 1 episode before we return to the island.

[Ithekro]

If she's singing the song I think she's singing...isn't that about as far away from Jessica's measurements as possible?

[Marion]

YAY FOR JESSIE-SAMA~~!!!!! http://umineko.tv/web/main/onair/index.html
Can someone get this on youtube anyway~?

[Christen]

I think it's only natural that 2-1 will have to sacrifice a lot of scenes.
Fortunately, things speed up earlier in EP2, so they only need to risk rushing through slow-paced stuff in one TV episode.

After EP 1-5, you really couldn't afford to show more than 1 episode before we return to the island.

Judging by the scenes, we'll probably finish Episode II-I up to Kanon's rejection of Jessica. We'll get some digest scenes, but probably enough for absorption. I'm expecting half of Episode II-II to be the chessboard preparation chapter (it was 8:59 in the drama cd, anime could even be shorter) and the eyecatch ends with Meta Battler's declaration of war with Beato. Not sure where they'll end that episode though.

[TsundereCake]

Just out of curiosity, what is Beato talking about in the preview? I hear her saying the main characters names in a sequence (Battler, George, Maria, Jessica....) ?

[Rias]

I am actually a bit surprised that they are keeping the festival scene...but I guess it's one of those scenes that many people expected it to be in the anime :heh:

[patnam]

i just saw the preview EPII-I in youtube...

big surprise: BGM "金色の嘲笑..." played in preview is awesome as is modified!!!

[Marion]

i just saw the preview EPII-I in youtube...

big surprise: BGM "金色の嘲笑..." played in preview is awesome as is modified!!!
Can you link it here?

[patnam]

Can you link it here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiLPYgNghD4

[Mikachiru]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiLPYgNghD4

Ah, I can die happy. Aya, Sakuya, Alice, and Reimu make a cameo. That would make Kanon either Kourin or Patch, right? XD

I'm probably going to cry next week...:heh:

[MeoTwister5]

Is the end of episode 5 that now occurs in purgatorio and the metaworld now beyond spoiler territory?

I assume it'll leave a few viewers in confusion.

[Alaya]

Is the end of episode 5 that now occurs in purgatorio and the metaworld now beyond spoiler territory?

I assume it'll leave a few viewers in confusion.

It's better to leave them confuse. That's the enjoying part of the story. Let them confuse and believe in Witch and Magic until they can make some sense by themselves. It would not be mind-raped if they know what's going on.

Unless they ask, we should just ask them what they think. It's better than tell them outright.

[MeoTwister5]

It's better to leave them confuse. That's the enjoying part of the story. Let them confuse and believe in Witch and Magic until they can make some sense by themselves. It would not be mind-raped if they know what's going on.

Unless they ask, we should just ask them what they think. It's better than tell them outright.

Or until their brains turn to goo. Whichever is more fun for me.

[Rias]

Speaking of which, how much of those extra TIPS are translated?

Since I'm on an extended break right now, I wouldn't mind taking a crack at some of those (that, or the giant page with the theories from ep1-4 on the wiki that summerizes alot of the theories that people have thought of already. Probably will save people time from coming up similar ideas?).

[Thisguy]

Just out of curiosity, what is Beato talking about in the preview? I hear her saying the main characters names in a sequence (Battler, George, Maria, Jessica....) ?Huhuhuhu...
Finally we meet at last, you ignorant humans in front of TV.
You've been longing to see my appearance, haven't you?
From now on, it'll be my turn forever (ZUTTO WARAWA NO TAAN! - yes she said it :heh:) so relax.

First thing first, I shall cast magic on Battler so that only breakfast he gets will be heel of breads.

For George, magic that never allows him to take off his eyeglass.

For Maria, magic that turns her crown into mackerel can.

For Jessica... let's see, the magic that forces her to sing strange (I couldn't find the proper translation for "電波な") character song despite her will!

Fufufu... it's gonna be fun! HAHAHAHAHA!

Next Episode, Middle Game.


...Hm, does that mean I have to sing my character-song as well?As much as it's expected, they seems to have prepared character song once again.
Furthermore, Jessica is guaranteed to have Denpa song... poor Jessica, I just hope it won't be worse than TURUPETTAN :heh:

Just for a side note, some people got a strange thought like following:
Beato casted magic on Jessica that she'll sing her chara-song
-> Beato seems to realize that it somehow makes her sing her song too
-> -> Beato = Jessica revelation!?!?!? :twitch:

Well, no comment from me regarding this matter :heh:

[Natsuki Hyuga]

Speaking of which, how much of those extra TIPS are translated?


Anti Mystery-Anti Fantasy, Bern's Letter and Lambda's Diary has been translated, as well as Seven Stake Sisters' Valentine Day and Tanabata TIPS. Gohda's booklet has also been translated, leaving us the Beato's White Day. Unless there is more Extra TIPS, these are all I remember has been translated.

P.S: IMO, Beato's White Day is as cute as Stakes' Valentine days, with Beato being pouty (and to be honest, naive at a point) Beato quite a lot <333

[SealedTime]

The Stakes are certainly cute.

The First Twilight of II is pretty gory, i wonder whether they'll animate the whole" stomach gets sliced open and sweets are stuffed inside" thingy. >__>

[ameskitty]

if it really is that song, then I wonder if they had Marina Inoue sing it...

That would be SWEET :D.

[Jan-Poo]

i wonder whether they'll animate the whole" stomach gets sliced open and sweets are stuffed inside" thingy. >__>

that would be SWEET! :D.

[MeoTwister5]

that would be SWEET! :D.

I saw what you did thar!

[TsundereCake]

Huhuhuhu...
Finally we meet at last, you ignorant humans in front of TV.
You've been longing to see my appearance, haven't you?
From now on, it'll be my turn forever (ZUTTO WARAWA NO TAAN! - yes she said it :heh:) so relax.

First thing first, I shall cast magic on Battler so that only breakfast he gets will be heel of breads.

For George, magic that never allows him to take off his eyeglass.

For Maria, magic that turns her crown into mackerel can.

For Jessica... let's see, the magic that forces her to sing strange (I couldn't find the proper translation for "電波な") character song despite her will!

Fufufu... it's gonna be fun! HAHAHAHAHA!

Next Episode, Middle Game.


...Hm, does that mean I have to sing my character-song as well?As much as it's expected, they seems to have prepared character song once again.
Furthermore, Jessica is guaranteed to have Denpa song... poor Jessica, I just hope it won't be worse than TURUPETTAN :heh:

Just for a side note, some people got a strange thought like following:
Beato casted magic on Jessica that she'll sing her chara-song
-> Beato seems to realize that it somehow makes her sing her song too
-> -> Beato = Jessica revelation!?!?!? :twitch:

Well, no comment from me regarding this matter :heh:

Thanks for the translation! Someone needs to draw a mackerel-can-crown-Maria :heh:

[SealedTime]

that would be SWEET! :D.

Sweet..Yeah >___>
Also the "Happy Halloween for Maria" was like o_____O

[paraalso]

I don't like the excessive fanservice, and I missed the line with Jessica encouraging Battler to continue denying the witch. The jump from the real world to the meta-world was probably also confusing for first time viewers. Jessica's dying dialogue would only have taken a few seconds of screentime, so I don't see the reason to leave it out. It was always a favorite of mine in the novel. Other than that, episode 5 was amazing. If they can keep future meta-world interaction at this level, I'm fairly optimistic about the future. I'm also interested in seeing how well Beatrice's voice actor can portray all the different aspects of her personality.


"B, .....Battler...., d...don't let something like witches, ...break your spirit......! .....Deny them, erase them... This person, ...... as long as at least one person denies her, is an illusion that can't exist.......!

and

"B, ...Battler......! We, ...... didn't want to doubt our friends... We refused to face reality, ...and gave in to the witch......! But, ...Battler, you won't.........won't, .....give in to the witch......!"

[Klashikari]

There is one thing I cannot call nitpicking at all, but Jan poo just remarked something I really cannot let pass.

The gun critiques are preposterous nitpickings imho. It was absolutely ridiculous to think it was a suicide in the novel, it's not the lack of smoke that's going to drastically change it. If they didn't mention at all the "suicide theory" I could understand, but they did mention it twice. So the purpose of conveying the fact that as a first reaction the cousins thought it was a suicide is accomplished. Now complaining that the anime doesn't make you think that it actually went that way, when you know it didn't really go that way, leaves me speechless.

There is one fundamuntal problem with it janpoo: how are you going to explain Natsuhi's murder without changing the concept of it?
The winchester swap, which was already speculated by myself and some other people before episode 3 is impracticable, by the lack of the smoke and the fact Natsuhi was falling.

The second issue with such change is how it actually tries hard to show it is a suicide despite it isn't. The problem with this change, as result, makes the perception of george and Battler rather awkward to say the least: Natsuhi is falling straight, with the gun on the same axe/slightly in bias.

The way how it is unpracticable should be known by everyone, yet you have 1 single gun shot and the smoke from her gun in the game. So it leaves both doubt.
The challenge here was to explain how it happened, since everyone knew there was no way for Natsuhi to kill herself, be it circumstances or mindset. The problem was the winchester itself, so the trap gun or the gun swap theories were weaved.

But the anime clear this, despite the gun swap is probably the only explanation in the game (unless you expect a sniper that is).
Now, Natsuhi's death isn't even a mystery: anyone can simply state the culprit was sniping from afar, or used a silencer and killed Natsuhi after her shot.
That's why there are critics: because Beatrice challenging Battler with this is absolutely skull sratching worthy: how will it be anything relevant with Episode 4 showdown?

[MeoTwister5]

In the anime it's shown that the children bust through the door mere moments after the shot rang out and they see Natsuhi's body slump backwards. No way in hell you can swap the gun in that time, and the gun position negates the possibility of suicide. It's as if the scene tries to insist that someone other than Natsuhi killed her, and probably from a distance.

[Klashikari]

Exactly, and this IS a problem, since there is absolutely no doubt about how she was killed in the anime.

Therefore, it becomes utterly moot with Beatrice with this point.

[milkypink]

Anti Mystery-Anti Fantasy, Bern's Letter and Lambda's Diary has been translated, as well as Seven Stake Sisters' Valentine Day and Tanabata TIPS. Gohda's booklet has also been translated, leaving us the Beato's White Day. Unless there is more Extra TIPS, these are all I remember has been translated.

P.S: IMO, Beato's White Day is as cute as Stakes' Valentine days, with Beato being pouty (and to be honest, naive at a point) Beato quite a lot <333

I'm currently attempting Beato's White Day, but it'll take me a few days :heh:
It is very cute XD

[chronotrig]

Wait a second, I don't think we can be that sure about Natsuhi's death.

While suicide seems even less likely in the anime, it is still possible that the gun swung down due to the recoil until it hit Natsuhi's body. If you look closely, the gun is almost parallel to Natsuhi's body as she falls. Assuming that she pointed it at her own forehead with her right hand index finger on the trigger (an awkward hold, but a possible one, and moreover, one what could be easily reached if you started out holding the gun the way she was before), the trigger guard would have been wrapped around her right hand, which would explain why she was falling with the gun held in one hand.

Yeah, it's a long shot, but far from impossible. As far as the smoke goes, a gun of that type wouldn't necessarily put out enough smoke that it would be visible from the angles we see. If there was no smoke, there is still no contradiction. If there was smoke, but just at an angle we can't see (i.e. when the gun is laying on the ground), then there is still no contradiction.

If you're going to say that a theory impossible, the burden of proof lies with you. So far, I see nothing that proves that a suicide was impossible.
Only very, very, very unlikely...which it was in the original too.

Edit: One more thing to add. If we're going to follow the theory that only scenes Battler sees are true, then all of the clips before the door is broken down do not count, making this a little easier to explain with a suicide or even a trap gun.

[Jan-Poo]

There is one thing I cannot call nitpicking at all, but Jan poo just remarked something I really cannot let pass.


There is one fundamuntal problem with it janpoo: how are you going to explain Natsuhi's murder without changing the concept of it?
The winchester swap, which was already speculated by myself and some other people before episode 3 is impracticable, by the lack of the smoke and the fact Natsuhi was falling.

The second issue with such change is how it actually tries hard to show it is a suicide despite it isn't. The problem with this change, as result, makes the perception of george and Battler rather awkward to say the least: Natsuhi is falling straight, with the gun on the same axe/slightly in bias.

The way how it is unpracticable should be known by everyone, yet you have 1 single gun shot and the smoke from her gun in the game. So it leaves both doubt.
The challenge here was to explain how it happened, since everyone knew there was no way for Natsuhi to kill herself, be it circumstances or mindset. The problem was the winchester itself, so the trap gun or the gun swap theories were weaved.

But the anime clear this, despite the gun swap is probably the only explanation in the game (unless you expect a sniper that is).
Now, Natsuhi's death isn't even a mystery: anyone can simply state the culprit was sniping from afar, or used a silencer and killed Natsuhi after her shot.
That's why there are critics: because Beatrice challenging Battler with this is absolutely skull sratching worthy: how will it be anything relevant with Episode 4 showdown?

I don't really get where are you going. If I understand correctly you are saying that the novel is leaving ground for speculations while the anime doesn't. Is it correct?

If that's so I have two points to counter such argument.

The first is that to me the novel didn't really leave any doubt as well. I've never thought it was a suicide not even for an instant. It is simply impossible. It would be an hassle to go back to the old discussions but I remember clearly I stated this before ep4 was translated. The way the wound on Natsuhi head was shown completely denies any rational possibility for a suicide. Even with an handgun shooting in the middle of your head in such a clean way it's almost impossible and awkward. You need to reverse the gun completely and you can't have a firm grip. There is a high rate of failed suicides because the hand shakes just a little before shooting, from such position it would be almost impossible. And now think about doing that with a rifle, with that huge knockback.
On the other hand that wound is pretty compatible with a person in front of Natsuhi shooting her.

The other point is while the novel can simply omit to tell the position of the gun, the anime couldn't. So they had a to choose: to show the gun still in natsuhi hands pointing towards the portrait, or to show it away from her pointing elsewhere. You should realize that that whatever they chose it would have definitely influenced the speculations about either theory.

Since it is a fact that someone else shot Natsuhi in the head, they have shown the gun in her hand, and that point only an idiot would think she killed herself.


EDIT: Oh and yeah. The smoke thing is most probably an error from Ryukishi's side. Since it's nearly impossible that Kinzo still had non smokeless bullets which still worked. Although I doubt that's the reason DEEN didn't include it.

[Klashikari]

I don't really get where are you going. If I understand correctly you are saying that the novel is leaving ground for speculations while the anime doesn't. Is it correct?Uncorrect. Both media sure imply Natsuhi would never do that, it isn't the point.

The first is that to me the novel didn't really leave any doubt as well.[...]I never questioned that, the problem doesn't lie there.

The other point is while the novel can simply omit to tell the position of the gun, the anime couldn't. So they had a to choose: to show the gun still in natsuhi hands pointing towards the portrait, or to show it away from her pointing elsewhere. You should realize that that whatever they chose it would have definitely influenced the speculations about either theory....and this is another case I don't see any problem.

Since it is a fact that someone else shot Natsuhi in the head, they have shown the gun in her hand, and that point only an idiot would think she killed herself.Would you please read again my post first?
I perfectly know Natsuhi couldn't commit suicide, before or after Ep4, simply because of the cirmcunstances and the mindset.

The problem is: the anime removes a MYSTERY part of it. Most if not all anime viewers won't believe in any suicide, yet the anime forced George and Battler to believe in it despite the lack of evidence (1 gun shot and the smoke are absent, so why would they think she killed herself?).
Therefore, it would rather be a question "how the hell the culprit did that?!". Not "why would natsuhi commit suicide?".

The problem isn't the fact there is a possibility for her to commit suicide. The problem is how they negated any mystery element of such event!

[Deathkillz]

I really don't know why people are ignoring the fact that smoke came from Natsuhi's gun. It was there in the original dammit and it WAS significant for this mystery of Natsuhi dying. It is fact that only one shot was heard and that from the smoke of her gun, the shot had been fired by her. But somehow that shot was to her own head. Was there a motive for suicide in the first place? And the way she was holding her gun shown in the anime was rather impossible for her to shoot herself with...logically if she wanted to suicide why would she hold it in an awkward position in the first place? She should have used her thumb as the trigger finger whilst placing the barrel on her forehead rather than making life difficult for herself in a suicide attempt. It makes no sense. But the main point is that the way it has been shown in the anime really changes a lot of these speculations from the viewers as it was "blatantly" showing Natsuhi being shot from afar.

The only way I think Natsuhi would suicide if it was for the kids. IE, the culprit told her that the kids will survive if she killed herself (and she would being the best mama in the world).

[Jan-Poo]

It is fact that only one shot was heard and that from the smoke of her gun, the shot had been fired by her.

I beg to differ. it's right until the part that they only heard one gunshot however, the culprit definitely shot

-The thing that shot Natsuhi was not a trap, but a real shooting murder with a readied gun and a pulled trigger!

Does the anime makes you hear two gunshots? No.

The anime shows Natsuhi pointing a gun, and soon after you see the very same gun shooting. You only hear one shot. How exactly an anime viewer is supposed to think that Natsuhi didn't actually fire? Everything suggests the opposite.

The problem isn't the fact there is a possibility for her to commit suicide. The problem is how they negated any mystery element of such event!

How exactly they negated any mystery event? From the way they have shown it, it definitely looks like Natsuhi fired, only one gunshot was heard, they arrived at the scene while Natsuhi was still falling down and they have seen no one. from the position of the wound the criminal could only have been in front of her, and that part is well lightened.

If you agree that the suicide part is irrelevant, you still have a mystery that apparently can only be explained with the bullet being reflected by an invisible witch.

[Klashikari]

How exactly they negated any mystery event? From the way they have shown it, it definitely looks like Natsuhi fired, only one gunshot was heard, they arrived at the scene while Natsuhi was still falling down and they have seen no one. from the position of the wound the criminal could only have been in front of her, and that part is well lightened.

If you agree that the suicide part is irrelevant, you still have a mystery that apparently can only be explained with the bullet being reflected by an invisible witch.
It isn't like they haven't see anyone: they bluntly didn't look the surrounding. All characters were focalized on Natsuhi until George starts looking for the letter.

And you only need a sniper with a decoy (explaining the golden butterfly, hallucinogen or whatever) or the culprit was there and used a silencer.
There isn't much mystery here, or much more dampened compared to the original setup. With the anime setup, you aren't even sure the bullet was the same that Natsuhi fired, while the VN pretty implied the bullet was from Natsuhi's gun (which is of course not the case).

[Ithekro]

Perhaps the smoke was a lie.

It is omitted in the anime, which may or may not mean anything. But there are two other things missing that would point to not only possible suicide, but also that she had even fired the gun.

1. There is no shell casing on the ground while George and Battler are looking for the letter. While that doesn't prove she didn't fire the gun, it does indicate something for the second point.

2. Battler fires the gun without putting a new round in the chamber. On a lever action rifle you have to use the action to eject the previous round and to load a new one at the same time. Battler does not do this. He fires on the portrait, then used the lever action, which does eject a spent casing, then he fires agian.

Sound is important here. We can hear the spent casing hitting the ground when Battler uses the lever action. We didn't hear this sound when he picks up the rifle originally nor at any other time. If Natsuhi had fired the gun before she was killed, she would have either used the lever action to get a second round ready (in which case there would be a spent casing on the floor), or there would be an empty casing needing to be ejected from the rifle before Battler could fire the gun.

Now that might be an oversight on someone's part, but the structure of the scene suggests that she didn't actually fire her gun at all.

[Rias]

The problem is: the anime removes a MYSTERY part of it. Most if not all anime viewers won't believe in any suicide, yet the anime forced George and Battler to believe in it despite the lack of evidence (1 gun shot and the smoke are absent, so why would they think she killed herself?).
Therefore, it would rather be a question "how the hell the culprit did that?!". Not "why would natsuhi commit suicide?".

The problem isn't the fact there is a possibility for her to commit suicide. The problem is how they negated any mystery element of such event!

It's just a hunch of mine, but I have a feeling that they are, and are going to, focus more on the fantasy side. The thing is that they have already left out some important clues, or hints, from the 5 Episodes. Not that an anime-only viewer can't come up with any decent theories or speculations, but some I suspect some will have an answer by a VN reader along the lines of "yeah, but actually in the game they have stated that..."

Now of course, there's the time constraint issue, but I personally think that fantasy is easier to sell: it's harder to mess up the fantasy scenes than the mystery scenes. That's a path they have picked in Higurashi, and I suspect that it would just be like that in Umineko. Question is, how far are they going to go this time? Will we see another Ramen-Tatarigoroshi-hen? Or Ryukishi07 is actually going to keep them in line this time?

[Klashikari]

2. Battler fires the gun without putting a new round in the chamber. On a lever action rifle you have to use the action to eject the previous round and to load a new one at the same time. Battler does not do this. He fires on the portrait, then used the lever action, which does eject a spent casing, then he fires agian.
That just confirms the difference is even more noticeable (unless it was another inconsistency).
In the VN:

When I pulled hard on the rifle's lever, the cartridge was ejected, it fell on the floor, and a new cartridge was loaded.

Natsuhi's winchester (not confirmed if it is the same from start to finish) HAD fired once. The smoke is not a decoy, unless that cartridge was also a fake.

[Ssol]

Natsuhi's death has become very mysterious since the anime:

-Only 1 shot fired? Is it not possible at all that two guns were fired at the exact same time making a similar noise? (Since they were behind the parlor door the sound was a bit muffled)

-No smoking gun in the anime? Well it was mentioned in the VN but exactly how much smoke should come from the barrel and for how long? They broke down the door and saw Natsuhi then Jessica hugs her. That took mabye 20 seconds so mabye the gun stopped smoking by the time the camera zooms out and shows the gun.

-Everyone's reactions were strange. How can you assume after 13 people were brutally murdered that someone commited suicide? It's more realistic that Jessica would run out to hug her mom, George stays back yelling to Jessica that it might not be safe and then Battler runs out in the direction he thinks the shot came from.

-The letter is gone, Natsuhi was supposed to have tossed it to her side after finishing reading it. No letter but George mentions it.

[Jan-Poo]

It isn't like they haven't see anyone: they bluntly didn't look the surrounding. All characters were focalized on Natsuhi until George starts looking for the letter.

And you only need a sniper with a decoy (explaining the golden butterfly, hallucinogen or whatever) or the culprit was there and used a silencer.
There isn't much mystery here, or much more dampened compared to the original setup. With the anime setup, you aren't even sure the bullet was the same that Natsuhi fired, while the VN pretty implied the bullet was from Natsuhi's gun (which is of course not the case).

We are comparing VN and anime now, right? I don't see why the "sniper" thing should be more probable in the anime than in the VN. Both the anime and VN implies that Natsuhi fired. The anime clearly shows the winchester firing which works better as an evidence than the smoke. The only way you can think it wasn't the same winchester is by knowing there is more than one in the island, however the anime viewers do not know that and without that knowledge you can hardly rationalize the idea that the culprit owns exactly the same kind of gun being a rarity and all.
In other words your assumption that the anime makes it look like Natsuhi didn't fire only comes from your knowledge of the next episodes.

1. There is no shell casing on the ground while George and Battler are looking for the letter. While that doesn't prove she didn't fire the gun, it does indicate something for the second point.

Has it ever happened to you to drop something from a table and after searching it for a while in the vicinity you noticed it ended up farther than you expected?
There's no need for the case to be right on Natsuhi's feet. After such height it could have bounced anywhere, and being round it could have gone pretty far.

Anyway the real problem is that you need to imagine Natsuhi recharged the gun, which wasn't shown. So after such analysis you would think that Natsuhi didn't fire, unless it was an inconsistency. That however doesn't change the fact that the first impression the anime leaves to a first time viewer is that Natsuhi fired.

[k//eternal]

The anime shows Natsuhi pointing a gun, and soon after you see the very same gun shooting. You only hear one shot. How exactly an anime viewer is supposed to think that Natsuhi didn't actually fire? Everything suggests the opposite.

It could easily be a gun that looks the same. Everyone knows there's more than one.

Even if the anime shows dialogues with Kinzo and golden butterflies flying around, which it does, it doesn't really make a difference. The shooting incident is, at worst, the same.

[Jan-Poo]

Everyone knows there's more than one.

Uh? No. Why you say so? I think even novel readers at that time didn't know there were more than one.

[k//eternal]

I meant "everyone in this thread", clearly.

[Klashikari]

We are comparing VN and anime now, right? I don't see why the "sniper" thing should be more probable in the anime than in the VN. Both the anime and VN implies that Natsuhi fired. The anime clearly shows the winchester firing which works better as an evidence than the smoke. The only way you can think it wasn't the same winchester is by knowing there is more than one in the island, however the anime viewers do not know that and without that knowledge you can hardly rationalize the idea that the culprit owns exactly the same kind of gun being a rarity and all.
In other words your assumption that the anime makes it look like Natsuhi didn't fire only comes from your knowledge of the next episodes.
Huh? Sorry but I didn't need any game knowledge to expect the culprit with the same gun. I actually thought Kinzo would have more considering how filthy rich he is.
That isn't the point: I never said Natsuhi didn't fire at all. I said: anyone would simply speculate the culprit used a "soundless" method to kill Natsuhi while she did fire. That is not the case, and showing the winchester firing is ok for the watchers, but NOT for the characters, hence why I believe their reactions is pretty contrived.

The lack of few details make the scene much less "bizarre" and "weird" than in th VN, since you can easily bypass the issue.

[Deathkillz]

The anime clearly shows the winchester firing which works better as an evidence than the smoke.

Which basically takes away the mystery part. Why is it ever a good reason to doubt the fact whether it was she who fired or not? Because that is what makes it a mystery and the anime removed that fact by saying "look, it was clearly Natsuhi who fired", until they find out that there are more rules that can come into the game during later play...like finding out there are more than one rifle. Not that much has changed in terms of facts, the but meaning of the scene has through the lack of (for what ever reason) information and changes.

[Jan-Poo]

I meant "everyone in this thread", clearly.

Ah well ok, that's for granted. However we also know that the gun that was in Natsuhi hands fired once from the novel °° And we also know that someone fired at natsuhi °°;

Huh? Sorry but I didn't need any game knowledge to expect the culprit with the same gun. I actually thought Kinzo would have more considering how filthy rich he is.
That isn't the point: I never said Natsuhi didn't fire at all. I said: anyone would simply speculate the culprit used a "soundless" method to kill Natsuhi while she did fire. That is not the case, and showing the winchester firing is ok for the watchers, but NOT for the characters, hence why I believe their reactions is pretty contrived.

The lack of few details make the scene much less "bizarre" and "weird" than in th VN, since you can easily bypass the issue.

Actually I always thought it was incredibly bizarre for the cousins to even think Natsuhi killed herself. After seeing those many dead people and the knowledge that an assassin was around, why in the world would they think Natsuhi killed herself? Apart from the bizarre position of the wound, there was really no reason to think Natsuhi would commit suicide.
The fact that they heard a single shot isn't good enough of a reason to think that way in such situation. This is even more true in the VN because they arrived when Natsuhi was already lying in the floor. There was plenty of time for the assassin to manipulate the scene.

Because that is what makes it a mystery and the anime removed that fact by saying "look, it was clearly Natsuhi who fired"

Actually it was just demonstrated now that the novel leaves no doubt that the gun natsuhi was holding fired once. The anime and the novel simply use a different way to make you think the same thing. But I agree they messed up when Battler fired without recharging.

[nagare]

Wait a second, I don't think we can be that sure about Natsuhi's death.

While suicide seems even less likely in the anime, it is still possible that the gun swung down due to the recoil until it hit Natsuhi's body. If you look closely, the gun is almost parallel to Natsuhi's body as she falls. Assuming that she pointed it at her own forehead with her right hand index finger on the trigger (an awkward hold, but a possible one, and moreover, one what could be easily reached if you started out holding the gun the way she was before), the trigger guard would have been wrapped around her right hand, which would explain why she was falling with the gun held in one hand.


If the gun barrel was close enough to her forehead, it will leave burn mark from the flash. Not saying suicide is impossible, but the lack of a burn mark at the entry wound makes it less likely of a possibility.

Neither the anime or the novel presents this info.

[Ssol]

This is even more true in the VN because they arrived when Natsuhi was already lying in the floor. There was plenty of time for the assassin to manipulate the scene.

I agree, but which should be trusted more: the anime scene, supervised by Ryukishi, or the VN scene, written by Ryukishi?

[Jan-Poo]

The one written by Ryukishi of course. However only time will tell if the anime messed up or not. For example if the culprit swapped the guns, then the anime messed up pretty bad.

[k//eternal]

In any case, I think the weirdest thing about the anime scene is really the letter that Natsuhi allegedly had. In theory, the culprit picked it up and ran with it, right? This was way easier to do in the game, where there was supposed to be some lag time, but now the logistics are pretty messy for that. Let's look at the possibilities.

1. The culprit picked it up and then shot Natsuhi. For a human culprit, this would be insanely difficult, because Natsuhi would probably shoot them first.

2. The culprit shot Natsuhi and then picked it up. But we see her falling to the ground, without any trace of the culprit being around. Unless the culprit is The Flash or invisible, this isn't really going to work out.

3. It didn't exist. In which case, why did Maria say it exists, and why did Natsuhi leave the room?

[Jan-Poo]

good point... unless Natsuhi herself is hiding the letter in a pocket, or unless the event shown is a lie and the actual event is completely different this isn't easy to explain.

[Ithekro]

A note on the scene. We see Natsuhi raise up the gun to fire, but the scene cuts to the end of the rifle firing. Or a rifle firing. You see no part of Natsuhi while the weapon is fired. Thus the viewer can assume she fired the shot...but cannot prove she actually did. Basically the entire scene seems designed to make it seem like she fired on someone, but also has enough doubt in the scene to suggest that she never got her shot off in the first place. being gunned down before she could fire.

There is no indication that she committed suicide aside from Beatrice's suggesting of same. Only that there was only one gunshot and one bullet hole in Natsuhi's forehead. If the scene is incorrect (meaning they didn't include the smoke and the need for Battler to eject the cartridge she fired), then things are different.

As it stands now, there is no way she could have fired that shot. The main reason I pointed out that there was no casing on the floor was because she would have had to cycle the action after the first shot was fired for it to be there and for Battler to not need to cycle the action. With no casing, and Battler not cycling the action...no bullet was fired. It is is highly unlikely she would be able to cycle the action if she and the killer fired together or if she committed suicide...so if she fired, there is a spent casing in the chamber that still needs to be ejected.

Now the VN seems to suggest both smoke and that Battler ejected a cartridge. This would prove she fired the gun (or someone fired the gun at least), but in the anime this clearly isn't the case. Which is correct? Who knows? Maybe this is one of those hints/surprises Ryukishi was mentioning.

Another intersting note (you mentioned the letter), we never see this letter, only that Maria mentions it as the reason Natsuhi leaves. We never she Natsuhi go very far into the room, since the children all run to Maria. However it looks like the candlestick Battler had was used to bar the door, so she had to have come in a ways to get it after he cast it aside. Yet there is no letter later (she could by laying on it). The timing of events limits what is possible in this scene.

[k//eternal]

I always thought it was hilarious that they stumble on the scene and think it's a suicide, even in the VN. That really would be pretty far down the list of possibilities for me (in no small part due to lack of motive), even with the single gunshot and (in the VN) the smoking gun.

I wouldn't actually discount it altogether, because I'm still thinking the "Fight Club" theory where split personalities get around the red text may hold, but it probably wouldn't occur to me on the scene, and I'd just assume a silencer was used by the culprit.

As for the letter, I hope it's not that Natsuhi just fell on top of it, that would be incredibly comical and speak volumes about Battler's incompetence. Then again, the latter was confirmed in red...

[Christen]

Ok, I just reread that part and it didn't say that gun smoke was actually coming out from Natsuhi's rifle. The kids can only smell a faint hint.

[Freelii]

It should also be noted that in the anime we only see the barrel-end of the gun firing, we don't even see the hands that are holding it. People assume it was Natsuhi's gun because she was in the scene the instant before we see the gun shot, but there is nothing in the actual shooting scene that indicates it was Natsuhi's gun.

[k//eternal]

Ok, I just reread that part and it didn't say that gun smoke was actually coming out from Natsuhi's rifle. The kids can only smell a faint hint.

Well, that makes it even easier, I suppose.

[Jan-Poo]

Ha ha, that's true. It's never stated that they see it, however it says that it was coming from Natsuhi's gun. How exactly can they pinpoint the source of an odor without sniffing the object itself? Unless they are dogs it's impossible, they could have smelled the gunpowder of another gun. I thought it was strange that Ryukishi would make such an error.

And of course now, how were they supposed to visualize the odor of gunpowder coming from the gun? But I guess you can still complain at the fact they arrived at the scene too early and that the first shot Battler triggered was done without recharging.

[Klashikari]

The faint smell of gunpowder smoke came from the barrel of the rifle Natsuhi oba-san still grasped.I guess most of us skipped the "smell" part, though the rest still apply (in fact, the smell is an even better evidence than smoke, ironically).

At the very least, it removes a thorn apposed to the anime adaptation (though it does still make the whole thing weird in term of George and Battler's reaction here).

The problem now is: considering it is now a definite proof the gun that was next to Natsuhi's corpse was definitely used, it will make hard for them to tailor a whole different explanation for the anime version I guess.
We can conclue the culprit just went lazy in the anime and the kids were surprisingly naive :heh:

[Freelii]

I guess most of us skipped the "smell" part, though the rest still apply (in fact, the smell is an even better evidence than smoke, ironically).

At the very least, it removes a thorn apposed to the anime adaptation (though it does still make the whole thing weird in term of George and Battler's reaction here).

The problem now is: considering it is now a definite proof the gun that was next to Natsuhi's corpse was definitely used, it will make hard for them to tailor a whole different explanation for the anime version I guess.
We can conclue the culprit just went lazy in the anime and the kids were surprisingly naive :heh:

It was a faint smell though, which might imply that it's been several hours since it was fired. Also, if two gun shots went off at the exact same moment, that would only count as hearing "one."

...or what if the second gun shot was unable to be heard? Gun Suppressors (or better known as silencers, though that term does not accurately describe the effect of the device) will severly reduce muzzle flash and sound, and have been in use since the early 20th century. I'll invoke devil's proof here to say that we can't deny the possibility that a suppressed firearm exists on Rokkenjima.

So in short, even if the anime shows Natsuhi keeling over right as the children break through the door, there can still have been two gunshots. The children, pounding on the door, did not hear the suppressed shot that killed Natsuhi, while Natsuhi's shot missed. In this scenario, it is still possible for Natsuhi's gun to be smoking or smell of gun powder and explain the single gunshot heard.

...but maybe this is better suited for the Episode 1 game discussion... so I'll change the topic! We did some prediction with episode order/endings for the first arc, so let's do some of that with the second!

I don't foresee any major murder being the cliffhanger of II-I, most likely it will end up being Shannon smashing the mirror. I do hope that in future II-X episodes that they don't follow the 1st arc formula of finishing almost every episode with twilight discoveries.

[Klashikari]

1) Unless the gun is badly maintained (doubtful considering Kinzo's habits), a gun shouldn't have a smell of powder, unless you are VERY close to it. The thing is that it is hinted by Battler he could smell the scent from where he was. The fact there is a "faint" smell doesn't mean a long lapse of time has passed.
2) That is within the possibility, but unpracticable: the culprit wants to make look like it is Beatrice, yet they would risk to make the setup blown because they gamble on a simultaneous crossfire? High doubtful.

3) Yes, silencer is probably the other speculation, but that would mean the culprit managed to get away/unharmed by Natsuhi's gun shot.



As for 2-1, it will be very character centred. Unless they want to bet their own deaths, the scripters have no time to cover the 2 couples backstory AND the first twilight. That's impossible.

[Ithekro]

If one can only see one gun, one would assume the smell of gunpowder would come from that gun.

If they can smell gunpowder, then the weapon that discharged was close to their location. This almost rules out a long ranged sniper, but then where would the sniper be anyway? They are inside. and the direction she is facing does not seem to have any windows. So the killer would have to be inside the house, and not all that far away. Could be a floor above if she looked up, but the indication is that she's looking ahead of her when she's shot. What is ahead of her?

That is assuming the children aren't having a psychosomatic reaction and smelling gunpowder because they believe they should smell gunpowder.

[Deathkillz]

Talk about reading in between the lines with the "feint" word. Sheesh.

But it does seem highly to me that a silencer would be the cause of her death before or after she fired her shot (in the anime version).

And if the series has proved anything until now...I suspect the next episode will quickly do away with George/Shannon and Jessie/Kanon's introductions. At most it will only take an episode (worst case, only half).

[Klashikari]

If they can smell gunpowder, then the weapon that discharged was close to their location. This almost rules out a long ranged sniper
No, because it would be Natsuhi's gun. Of course, sniping in such weather is really crazy, but not impossible.
, but then where would the sniper be anyway? They are inside. and the direction she is facing does not seem to have any windows.She is facing where the golden butterfly came out, and if you stare closely, you can see there is a window, albeit it is impossible to tell if it is open.
So the killer would have to be inside the house, and not all that far away. Could be a floor above if she looked up, but the indication is that she's looking ahead of her when she's shot. What is ahead of her?That would be too odd considering the angle of the gun wound.

[Ssol]

Let's assume that only things which are in common between the VN/anime/manga are important to solving the mystery of Natsuhi's death. If that's true then these are not important details:
-Her proximity to the parlor
-Smoke (or smell of smoke) from the gun
-The letter (assume that it just contained a message similar to the previous letters which intended to provoke her to come out alone and face the culprit)
-Natsuhi's words in which she challenges the culprit to a duel
-What Natsuhi sees (golden butterfly/shadowy form of Beatrice)

Then the important details:
-No one notices Natsuhi leave the room and secure the door with the candlestick. If they were that entranced with questioning Maria then it's possible that the culprit actually entered the room and quietly took Natsuhi hostage.
-Only 1 shot is heard but Natsuhi's gun did not cause the bullet wound to her head
-There must be some detail that is not yet known that would cause Battler to immediately assume that Natsuhi possibly committed suicide

[Jan-Poo]

1) Unless the gun is badly maintained (doubtful considering Kinzo's habits), a gun shouldn't have a smell of powder, unless you are VERY close to it. The thing is that it is hinted by Battler he could smell the scent from where he was. The fact there is a "faint" smell doesn't mean a long lapse of time has passed.
2) That is within the possibility, but unpracticable: the culprit wants to make look like it is Beatrice, yet they would risk to make the setup blown because they gamble on a simultaneous crossfire? High doubtful.

3) Yes, silencer is probably the other speculation, but that would mean the culprit managed to get away/unharmed by Natsuhi's gun shot.



As for 2-1, it will be very character centred. Unless they want to bet their own deaths, the scripters have no time to cover the 2 couples backstory AND the first twilight. That's impossible.

I completely agree with this one. The culprit is using a silencer or some kind of exotic weapon that doesn't make any sound. It must be said that the so called "silencer" isn't that soundless as they make it appear in fiction. This has been discussed in the anime thread for anime watchers.

The exotic weapon could be the same that is used in No country for old men (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Country_for_Old_Men). Even though I'm skeptical on the actual effectiveness of a captive bolt pistol. Anyway something of the sort could explain why gunshots are practically never heard throughout the series.

The smell served the purpose to make us know that the gun Natsuhi was holding did fire a shot. and that was confirmed a little later by battler recharging the weapon (although maybe it is possible that he discharged a full bullet... not sure if that's possible with that gun).

The anime on the other hand while at first it gives the impression that Natsuhi fired, once you reason on the fact that Battler fired without recharging it gives almost a certainty that Natsuhi didn't fire. However since the culprit is probably not using a winchester (for the reasons mentioned above) I can only imagine that this was an inconsistency of the anime.

[Christen]

Or maybe, the "declaration of duel" is another fake scene. If not, a simple explanation of the culprit having a gun with a suppressor can explain it. A loud rifle shot can drown out the sound of a suppressed gunshot. Since Natsuhi probably isn't that good with a gun, the killer might have been able to dodge her shot.

[izmosmolnar]

I was hoping Battler will shoot all the remaining bullets in the clip, so we could count and calculate whether the very first bullet which supposedly killed Natsuhi (provided it was suicide), was missing or it was still loaded into the gun (in which case she had to be killed by someone else's gun).

[chronotrig]

Heh, even with all this argument it's caused, it looks like Ryuukishi's take on the anime was totally right. Seeing this scene animated has definitely made some things clearer about the game version, and has done a good job of reigniting discussion, even if the course of events was actually different (they didn't have to make the scene completely identical if Ryuukishi told them the true answer).

As for the character's reactions, I don't think it's unbelievable, even if it isn't logical.
When the door is first opened, I think they're clearly stunned with shock. Natsuhi was the person who had protected them the whole time, so she probably started to seem unkillable to them. Kind of like the judge guy in "And then there were none" (wait...heheheh). We only see where they're looking for the first second or so, so you can't say for sure that they were totally ignoring their surroundings.

As to George mentioning suicide, he wasn't suggesting it like he believed it at all. More like he didn't have a clue what was going on, and he was responding to the only visible weapon in the room. Judging by Battler's reaction, he was pretty doubtful about that theory too. Remember, they broke down the door almost immediately after the gunfire in the anime, so they would expect to see the murderer. The very fact that Natsuhi was falling when they entered the room proved that it had only just happened. So the anime version is at least consistent with itself.

[Christen]

At one point I was considering the anime as "another angle" to look at. Like if it's a completely rewritten story. Of course we won't know if this is the case, but maybe it would not be wasteful if we, as novel readers, try to fit the happenings along with the novel. Any change can actually fit to the truth. That includes the VN inconsistencies from previous episodes (Kumasawa's disappearance, everyone moving around the house, etc.).

Well, we'll know once the answers are out. But then the anime would end before Episode 6 is even released. This makes the anime a good media to cross check with the truth.

[Ithekro]

A rifle of that type would normally hold 6 or 7 bullets, but since it is sawed off, the magazine (the tube under the barrel) will be smaller, I'd say 4 or 5 bullets at best. The lever action will eject any round in the chamber, spent or loaded, and replace it with another from the magazine (if any bullets remain that is).

I would note though that this is a customized rifle. The normal version used a .30-30 caliber rifle round, while this one used long pistol rounds (.45 Colt) which are shorter. They say those with pistol round could hold between 9 and 13 rounds depending on the size of the bullet and the magazine. However these are still sawed off and thus have smaller than usual magazines (the barrel and magazine appear to be a third shorter than a normal rifle of this type). I'd still guess no more than 5 rounds.

[Christen]

A rifle of that type would normally hold 6 or 7 bullets, but since it is sawed off, the magazine (the tube under the barrel) will be smaller, I'd say 4 or 5 bullets at best. The lever action will eject any round in the chamber, spent or loaded, and replace it with another from the magazine (if any bullets remain that is).

I would note though that this is a customized rifle. The normal version used a .30-30 caliber rifle round, while this one used long pistol rounds (.45 Colt) which are shorter. They say those with pistol round could hold between 9 and 13 rounds depending on the size of the bullet and the magazine. However these are still sawed off and thus have smaller than usual magazines (the barrel and magazine appear to be a third shorter than a normal rifle of this type). I'd still guess no more than 5 rounds.

Here's the TIPS related to your post (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=2443610&postcount=14). The rifle has 4+1 bullets.

[Freelii]

While we're on the topic of shots fired by Natsuhi's gun after it is acquired by Battler... let's break it down!

The first shot Battler fires is at the butterfly that has landed on the portrait. The camera angle makes it impossible to see if he has moved the charge lever, but we DO see him pull the hammer back.

The second shot is preceded by Battler definately pulling the charging lever, because a smoking shell pops out. While the camera angle was the same for the first shot, no shell was visibly ejected during that sequence.

What I pull from this is that it seems that Natsuhi may not have fired at all. This depends entirely on the anime being completely consistant with gun mechanics though. Since we know from VN tips that the rifle can have 1 bullet in the firing chamber and 4 in a reserve magazine, the gun was most likely loaded in a 4+1 configuration when Battler picked it up. The sound effects when Battler first takes aim almost sounds like the charging lever being pulled, but no bullet is ejected. Therefore, either it was a neutral gun sound that TV likes to make guns have, or there was no bullet in the chamber. The possibility of there being no bullet in the chamber when Battler first aquires it is low because it would mean someone had manually removed the +1 bullet while the gun was in Natsuhi's possession. However, I don't recall her ever putting the gun down once she obtained it.

Back on topic, I submit that Battler fired the +1 round of the Winchester because of the lack of shell ejection in preperation of his first shot. He then fired the next round after ejecting the used shell.

Here's another piece of speculation that Natsuhi may not have fired. As I mentioned earlier, Battler manually cocked the hammer for his first shot. For this to work, the hammer would have to be in it's non-cocked position before Battler cocked it (obviously). The hammer would be in this position for 2 reasons:

1. Natsuhi had fired the weapon, but did not have a chance to pull the charging lever to eject the next shell, which would have in turn cocked the hammer for the next shot. This is standard mechanics for a semi-automatic weapon.
2. The gun was loaded in a 4+1 configuration, but the hammer was in a non-cocked position, as is the case when you carry a weapon with X+1 rounds for better safety.

The first one is obviously impossible because Battler did not eject a shell before his first shot, meaning the round in the chamber was live.

I propose this: Natsuhi attempted to fire the weapon without cocking the hammer beforehand. While I am not entirely familiar with Winchester rifles, I know from firing handguns that it is possible to fire one when the hammer is not yet cocked. It does, however, require a vastly higher amount of force and distance to pull the trigger all the way back, as opposed to when it is in a cocked position. If Natsuhi was surprised, she would not be ready to pull the trigger, much less have the time required to do so if the hammer was not cocked.

This is the alternative to the killer having a suppressed weapon as I initially suggested. The killing shot would have been the one that was heard, not Natsuhi's.

The biggest flaw to this, I think, is the passage in the VN that states that there was a faint smell of gunpowder coming from Natsuhi's gun. I am looking for a way to explain around this.

TLDR version:
-Battler fired the first 2 rounds of the 4+1 rounds, starting with the +1 round (the one already in the chamber).
-This is supported by the lack of shell ejection before the first shot, which DID accompany the second shot.
-This is also supported by the fact that Battler cocked the hammer, implying the gun was in a hard-to-fire state when it was in Natsuhi's possession.
-Natsuhi did not fire her weapon. The gun shot that was heard was that of the killer's weapon.
-This theory hangs ENTIRELY on the anime correctly portraying the state of Natsuhi's gun once acquired by Battler.
-This theory stands as an alternative to my supposition that the killer's weapon was suppressed. The suppression theory stands if the anime is innaccurate in it's portrayal of Natsuhi's gun.
-This theory's main flaw is the VN statement that a faint smell of gunpowder seemed to come from Natsuhi's gun when it was first observed by the cousins.

[Jan-Poo]

Additionally in the VN Battler only fires once and not at a butterfly but at what he seem to think it's Beatrice's figure. Before firing he presses hard the level, a cartridge is ejected and a new one is loaded.

Frankly I'm kinda surprised that Battler in that situation was able to think straight and recharged the gun instead of pulling the trigger, considering he's not supposed to be familiar with gunfires. Uhm maybe Battler is a gun otaku!

[Marion]

Additionally in the VN Battler only fires once and not at a butterfly but at what he seem to think it's Beatrice's figure. Before firing he presses hard the level, a cartridge is ejected and a new one is loaded.

Frankly I'm kinda surprised that Battler in that situation was able to think straight and recharged the gun instead of pulling the trigger, considering he's not supposed to be familiar with gunfires. Uhm maybe Battler is a gun otaku!
Considering that Rudolf mentioned growing up on western films (like the wild west) it could be possible that Battler watched some as well.

[Freelii]

And in the VN, it's not possible to tell if that round he ejected was spent or not...

The anime seems to imply that Natsuhi may not have fired, while in the VN it could be that Natsuhi fired, missed, and was killed by the killer's suppressed weapon OR did not fire and was killed by the killer's unsuppressed weapon, though the smell of gunpowder makes me lean towards the former.

[Ithekro]

Battler's use of the weapon as seen is correct. In normal operation one would load the rifle to fill the magazine, then use the lever action to get one into the chamber, then load one more round into the magazine to get 4+1. Since we can see Natsuhi wasn't walking around with the weapon cocked, she either did not have a round in the chamber (she would have done that much at least), or she put the hammer down so the weapon would be safer. However she would need to pull the hammer back, or use the lever action to do it for her before she could fire.

All indications I have on this weapon is that the lever action is what is used to push the hammer back between shots (this is also a smokeless powder weapon by design...it is why Winchester made this model...also why there where over 7 million produced). I see no indication that this has double action in any way (being able to just pull the trigger to pull back the hammer and fire again). Battler needed to pull back the hammer or use the lever action to get the weapon ready to use...Natsuhi isn't seen doing this before she fires. However Battler is able to pull back the hammer and fire, thus there is a round in the chamber already.

At this point it comes down to little details. In the anime, if everything is shown correctly, there is no way Natsuhi fired that rifle....unless she was able to use the lever action before she died, and there just doesn't seem to be enough time for that...especially for a corpse. Also the hammer would be back already if she had. Also if Battler had used the lever action when he picked up the rifle he would not need to cock the hammer since the lever action does that when it ejects the spent cartridge.

The spent casings come out the top on this model. They are suppose to go just over the firers shoulder, but that doesn't always happen. However they don't go very far away. Generally somewhere around the users feet.

[MeoTwister5]

It's actually possible to even predict the caliber of a round and the type of gun used to fire it based on the sound the bullet makes when the gunpowder ignites and when the bullet exits the barrel.

Heck for all we know DEEN and Ryukishi did their researched and matched the sound with the actual gun (if ever) Ryukishi planned to have been used for killing Natsuhi.:eyespin:

[Ithekro]

A captive bolt pistol is a contact device if I understand things correctly. One has to be able to press it against the victums head for it to work (used to "stun" cattle before slaughtering)

[MeoTwister5]

A captive bolt pistol is a contact device if I understand things correctly. One has to be able to press it against the victums head for it to work (used to "stun" cattle before slaughtering)

I'm pretty sure this device is illegal in some countries. Japan would likely outlaw this.

[k//eternal]

It's not like Kinzo's shotguns were legal either, though...

[Ithekro]

It is basically used at slaughter houses to "stun" livestock before they are bleed out so that the brain is out, but things like the heart are still working (also to reduce the pain the animal would experiance, both for the sake of the animal and the quality of the meat). According to the article, they've become more common usage in the European Union after the outbreak of "mad cow disease".

Aside from the sawed off natures of the weapons, Kinzo's firearms should be of the legal quality in Japan. Sports rifles and shotguns can be legally owned their. Also these models seem to be of the classical nature, meaning they might be very old.

[MeoTwister5]

The biggest problem however is the difference between the anime and the VN.

Specifically, which one is to be believed?

Anime watchers will think that Natsuhi got her brains splattered at almost the exact moment for the children to witness it, while VN players will believe there is a time lag between her death and the discover of her murder. The game makes it much more apparent that someone else shot her with another gun, while the VN makes the idea of a suicide a probable cause.

The only shared idea is a trap device, but we know that no trap or similar device was used to kill Natsuhi.

In the end anime viewers and VN players will have radically different POV on the matter.

[Christen]

In the end anime viewers and VN players will have radically different POV on the matter.

That is actually helpful for us, since there can only be one truth. Multiple angles eliminate noise.

[MeoTwister5]

That is actually helpful for us, since there can only be one truth. Multiple angles eliminate noise.

Multiple angles on the same event yes, but we have multiple angles on two differing events, so not every angle from one can apply to the other, and this is what makes cross-speculation on Natsuhi's murder dificult.

[Freelii]

It does look like we might have to wait for Ryukushi to throw us a bone on this one.. it's kind frustrating, but it feels like we've gotten as close to the truth as possible without more red text or a new perspective is provided in Episode 5 (the VN).

I've latched on to the theory that Kanon is the culprit with the accomplices being some/all/one of Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo.. of course, the motives are massively lacking as of yet, but the events of this first Episode seem to match up with Kanon being the prime suspect. Especially the anime's portrayal of Kanon's death.

..but I've also got that nagging voice in the back of my head that's reminding me of watanagashi-hen/meakashi-hen (aka mion vs shion) and it has me thinking Kanon + accomplices is almost too easy a conclusion to reach.

Of course, the frustration is part of the awesomeness of Higurashi and Umineko. I can't wait for the day months from now when I can look back and say "Man, that was so OBVIOUS I can't believe I missed that!"

Can't wait to see Episode 2 animated now. It'll help refresh my memory, and some scenes will take on a whole new perspective once I can see them outside my mind's eye.

[tcaz2]

There's also the fact that the whole scene from the anime is possibly noise. Yeah, Ryuukishi said he's checking it, but the anime gives no impression of Natsuhi having fired a shot when Battler picks up the rifle, while the VN is very clear that there's smoke coming from her gun, there's a gunpowder smell from it, and Battler reloads before he fires.

I'm thinking at this point that we either should really take the way things play out in the anime with a grain of salt, if not ignore it entirely... because it's radically different impressions of the scene.

[MeoTwister5]

There's also the fact that the whole scene from the anime is possibly noise. Yeah, Ryuukishi said he's checking it, but the anime gives no impression of Natsuhi having fired a shot when Battler picks up the rifle, while the VN is very clear that there's smoke coming from her gun, there's a gunpowder smell from it, and Battler reloads before he fires.

I'm thinking at this point that we either should really take the way things play out in the anime with a grain of salt, if not ignore it entirely... because it's radically different impressions of the scene.

In that case, the anime-only viewers are left out in the cold, being fed a scene that isn't canon (pardon the pun). That's going to create friction between people who are stuck with whatever the anime shows and those who think the VN is truth.

[tcaz2]

In that case, the anime-only viewers are left out in the cold, being fed a scene that isn't canon (pardon the pun). That's going to create friction between people who are stuck with whatever the anime shows and those who think the VN is truth.

It's true, I'm hoping it doesn't come to that... but it's a possibility we should keep in mind.

[Seagull]

With the way that the anime is paced, it's most likely going to be the issue.

[Jan-Poo]

A captive bolt pistol is a contact device if I understand things correctly. One has to be able to press it against the victums head for it to work (used to "stun" cattle before slaughtering)

The one being used in the movie/book I mentioned is a modified version that can snipe from afar. But as I said I'm very skeptical of its actual effectiveness. I mean if such thing could be possible there would be a lot of them, since it makes no sound and leaves no bullets.

There's also the fact that the whole scene from the anime is possibly noise. Yeah, Ryuukishi said he's checking it, but the anime gives no impression of Natsuhi having fired a shot when Battler picks up the rifle, while the VN is very clear that there's smoke coming from her gun, there's a gunpowder smell from it, and Battler reloads before he fires.

I'm thinking at this point that we either should really take the way things play out in the anime with a grain of salt, if not ignore it entirely... because it's radically different impressions of the scene.

I guess that unless Beatrice appears and say in red "there is no error in the anime", you can't be sure of anything.

I'm leaning toward the idea that the anime simply forgot to make Battler recharge the gun. However I can't completely deny the possibility that Natsuhi didn't fire.

Remember how Battler said that the last seat in the dinner table was prepared for Maria's father? Remember how he said that Kinzo recovered the Ushiromiya's wealth in 20 years when it's actually more like 30 years? So now even if he said that the smell came from Natsuhi's gun, as I said, a human being cannot clearly discern the source of an odor. It's not like he's seen the smoke. So if the culprit fired the gun from a close position, Battler might have been deceived into thinking that the odor came from Natsuhi's gun because he couldn't think there could be another gun (as proven from the fact he illogically thought it was suicide). He then recharged the gun without noticing that the bullet wasn't spent.

Kinda far-fatched, but not impossible.

[Christen]

Battler might have been deceived into thinking that the odor came from Natsuhi's gun because he couldn't think there could be another gun (as proven from the fact he illogically thought it was suicide). He then recharged the gun without noticing that the bullet wasn't spent.

Kinda far-fatched, but not impossible.

I was also thinking along these lines. Though the anime makes it harder now.

[Freelii]

So now even if he said that the smell came from Natsuhi's gun, as I said, a human being cannot clearly discern the source of an odor. It's not like he's seen the smoke. So if the culprit fired the gun from a close position, Battler might have been deceived into thinking that the odor came from Natsuhi's gun because he couldn't think there could be another gun (as proven from the fact he illogically thought it was suicide). He then recharged the gun without noticing that the bullet wasn't spent.

Kinda far-fatched, but not impossible.

That's the best I can come up with as well.

I just touched on this in the main discussion thread for episode 5 of the anime, but it's better suited to being branched out here. Who else is looking forward to Sayaka Ohara's performance as Beatrice once we get around to Episode 3 material, with all the moé moé "I'm sorry, Battler! :("

Since we've started off with a very mature/deep voice for Beatrice, I'm interested to see how the VA will manipulate that to achieve Beatrice's faux soft personality.

[Deathkillz]

I personally dislike the voice and the design for anime Beatrice. The mature/deepness of Sayaka's voice doesn't fit her at all for the fact that it does "feel" young. Despite we never know the age of Beatrice I would say that her actions and appearance (in the game) puts her somewhere around mid 20s. There is a serious side of her but also a child-like personality at times so its really hard to think of her with such a mature, no messing, "Eva" kind of voice. Appearance wise she looks almost too beautiful to be true and that looks back round to making her "ugly". I mean...what the heck is up with the over use of her "slit eyes" expression and oh my god her face is too spaced apart...


Empty face is empty :rolleyes:

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/8203/snapshot200907311805120.jpg (http://img27.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snapshot200907311805120.jpg)

[Freelii]

I honestly had more problems with the length of her neck than her face. As for her appearance of age... the way she's drawn in the anime strikes me as a pretty solid 30, or a few years younger. The screenshot you posted isn't all that bad in terms of an "empty face." I can see your point better with:

http://www.thebenevolent.net/imghost/files/3c396rzeijp5i93r20k.gif
(courtesy of Mion in the avatar request thread)

The anime rendition of Beatrice seems like a vast visual upgrade over her VN sprite. But then, I'm not exactly a fan of Ryukushi's character designs :heh:

[sento]

Ohara have a camaleonic voice, really. Probably she will be able to work with all of that issues. And now, she is doing the almost "elegant" Beato of EP1 and first chapters of EP2.

I think that's why she was handpicked.

[Marion]

Well we've only seen one side of Ohara's Beatrice so far. She'll probably have to sound a little less mature when EP 3 comes into air and she acts all moe and tsundere.

I bet all the smoking got to her voice~

[urusai]

I mean...what the heck is up with the over use of her "slit eyes" expression and oh my god her face is too spaced apart...

Don't worry, when episode 6 comes her character design changes quite a bit (much larger eyes, for one). Thanks DEEN!

[chounokoe]

I personally always imagined Beatrice sounding like that.
She is obviously supposed to be within the same age-range as the other children of Kinzô, at least the image that most characters have in their heads...
She has to be able to be a smooth-talking, elegant witch at one point and a bratty, childish, arrogant girly-type woman at another point...but it is always implied that she acts unfit for her apparent age (and that's not talking about her supposed 1000 years).

Well I think people get different pictures in their head all the time, there are always fights about live-action adaptions of novels...so why not about a seiyuu.
We can't force anyone to like her....but I think she's doing a terrific job, especially if she pulls a similar thing as in the drama-cd.

[Deathkillz]

I honestly had more problems with the length of her neck than her face. As for her appearance of age... the way she's drawn in the anime strikes me as a pretty solid 30, or a few years younger. The screenshot you posted isn't all that bad in terms of an "empty face." I can see your point better with:

http://www.thebenevolent.net/imghost/files/3c396rzeijp5i93r20k.gif
(courtesy of Mion in the avatar request thread)

The anime rendition of Beatrice seems like a vast visual upgrade over her VN sprite. But then, I'm not exactly a fan of Ryukushi's character designs :heh:
Ah thanks, that was the screen cap I was looking for but couldn't find...it looks absolutely "beautiful" in an ugly way :rolleyes:

And heck...I'm completely in love with Ryukishi's sprites :heh:

Don't worry, when episode 6 comes her character design changes quite a bit (much larger eyes, for one). Thanks DEEN!
Take away some of Battler's eyes and give it to Beatrice...please :rolleyes:

[sento]

Take away some of Battler's eyes and give it to Beatrice...please :rolleyes:I think that compared to I-I and I-II, his design improved A LOT.

[gtr06]

What if someone lured Natsuhi out to protect the children? If Natsuhi was pulling an episode 3 ending when the last two were alone in the lobby, then maybe when they broke through to see Natsuhi shot, maybe they instead were shot and everything else was meta world.

[Seagull]

Well we've only seen one side of Ohara's Beatrice so far. She'll probably have to sound a little less mature when EP 3 comes into air and she acts all moe and tsundere.

I bet all the smoking got to her voice~

Yep. Hard to imagine tsundere beato with that voice, along with her "undignified" cackling.

[Freelii]

Hey, speaking of "beato" ...

..I always assumed the pronunciation was like "bee-toh," similar to how Yukari Tamura (voice of Bern) says "fate-chan" all the time as Nanoha (fay-toh-chan). But listening to the ??? tea party in the anime, I could have sworn I heard Beatrice referred to as "Beato" pronounced as "bey-ah-toh."

This 2nd pronounciation definately sounds more like the 2nd half of "Beatrice" got cut off, but it's a bit confuddling since I've heard it the former way in my head for so long.

[urusai]

Yeah, it's indeed pronounced as "bey-ah-toh". It'd be easier to see if you look at the original katakana (ベアト as opposed to ビート).

[MeoTwister5]

throughout the whole arc, other than the servants (+doctor) and Natsuhi, did ANYONE see Kinzo being alive? Also, can the adults hear the roaring from inside the study when they are banging on the door?
just some queries.

This guy in the episode 5 thread is starting to question if anyone else actually saw Kinzo alive other than the servants, Nanjo and Natsuhi.

Hohohoho. People are catching on. I imagine the look on their faces when perhaps one of the biggest plot twists come around.

[Saerianne]

This guy in the episode 5 thread is starting to question if anyone else actually saw Kinzo alive other than the servants, Nanjo and Natsuhi.

Hohohoho. People are catching on. I imagine the look on their faces when perhaps one of the biggest plot twists come around.

I saw this too.
Play the game and you will find the answer sooner! DDDD: YOU'RE ON THE RIGHT TRACK!
XD

[k//eternal]

I imagine the look on their faces when perhaps one of the biggest plot twists come around.

I think they'd be more surprised if they weren't catching on, though.

[MeoTwister5]

Or their brains could asplode. It's not fun without exploding brains.

I'm pretty sure my brain exited my ears at 3 times the speed of sound when Ushiromiya Kinzo was dead before the start of every game.

[Marion]

Just imagine the look on their faces when Beatrice ultimate trolls them with her moe act XD Oh man, if they're surprised at Beatrice appearing and Bernkastel then they'll die with EP 3 coming around.

[Jimprovement]

I'm more interested to see all the reactions to the Ep. 4 ????

Delicious yandere Bernkastel~

[Seagull]

Just imagine the look on their faces when Beatrice ultimate trolls them with her moe act XD Oh man, if they're surprised at Beatrice appearing and Bernkastel then they'll die with EP 3 coming around.

So, true. They wont even see it coming.

[Alair]

This guy in the episode 5 thread is starting to question if anyone else actually saw Kinzo alive other than the servants, Nanjo and Natsuhi.

Hohohoho. People are catching on. I imagine the look on their faces when perhaps one of the biggest plot twists come around.

Well, by Volume 3 I was starting to think something stunk to high heaven about the way Kinzo's body was always found burned...

[Alaya]

What I really looking forward to (and DEEN should not screw them!) for EP2:

- Kanon's blade and Shannon's shield. These would be the first trolls that the story screwed with us.
- Rosa Musou. Rosa really need to be portrayed here, before her image is teared to pieces in EP4.
- Battler and Kinzo are eaten alive. I really want to see how they animate this scene.
- Tea Party. Again, I want to see how they animate the killing of Krauss for golden drop, and the meal serve to Rosa. It should be gruesome. And don't forget the one of the most epic sentences of the series about Maria would be "eaten" by Battler 10 years later :heh:.

[MarthX]

I'm guessing those episode titles for 7-10 were fake because they've been out for 2 weeks and no site has been updated with that information. Not Wikipedia, ANN nor http://cal.syoboi.jp/tid/1670/time

But shouldn't it be about time for the next NewType to have them?

[Mint Kashiro]

Just imagine the look on their faces when Beatrice ultimate trolls them with her moe act XD Oh man, if they're surprised at Beatrice appearing and Bernkastel then they'll die with EP 3 coming around.

Oh man, I just finished Episode 3 last night and my head still hurts from that one. Especially with Virgilia's part in that.

Really, I'm just wanting to see how people react to the second arc's first twilight. It's just so disturbing in an excellent sense. X3

[Alair]

They're dead *and* delicious. It's a totally sweet way to go.

[SealedTime]

Just imagine the look on their faces when Beatrice ultimate trolls them with her moe act XD Oh man, if they're surprised at Beatrice appearing and Bernkastel then they'll die with EP 3 coming around.
Beato is the ultimate troll... I fell for it till the very end..

[Ttak]

I hope they use worldenddominator for Rosa's killing spree scene (and this scene gets nicely animated)

[Klashikari]

A lot of things have happened during the first arc of the anime, and since it would be too long to PM that to everyone, I think it will be easier like this:

DO NOT MOUTHFEED FIRST TIME WATCHERS WITH UNRELATED FACTS OR THEORIES!

I can't stress the fact we must offer the exact same environment we players had during our first playthrough.
Therefore, please do NOT offer elements that are irrelevant or theories that are impossible to speculate at this stage!
The most evident but still recurrent incidents (it happened like four times): Speculating "false scenes" and the like is out of question, especially regarding Kinzo.

There is a fine line regarding giving exotic speculations, and ones that could only be brought with ulterior episodes.
Also, if you want to provide VN details, it would be rather preferable to use spoilers tags from now on, indicating clearly they are just extra details that aren't "future" for the anime. That will leave the choice for these persons if they want to know or not about the VN or if they want to solve everything with the anime alone.

Giving reckless and premature elements will be treated as the SAME as outright spoiler if it is deemed the case.
You are free to observe the first time watchers and the like, but if you are playing like a "game master" or intending to act like "I know better than you!", you will be asked to stop posting completely.

This message is aimed to every VN readers who are actively "guiding" the first time viewers, of course. There is no exception.

[MeoTwister5]

I'm personally hoping that DEEN would avoid heading into the first twilight of Ep2 with the intention of animating it in it's full, candy-in-the-guts glory because it's just going to turn people off. Yes it was disgustingly gory and violent but part of it is shock factor. If DEEN intends to animate it completely and show us what it would look like if you had a cadny cane where your spleen should be then it'll just detract the viewers.

In essence, it'll leave people stuck on the visual violence of the scene rather than having them ask themselves who would do such a thing inside a closed room that is the chapel. I'd rather that they not focus on the gore but rather on the mystery. Given the nature of the scene overuse of animation would just assault the senses rather than leave it rationally confused.

I'd prefer they do it like episode 5, having shadow silhouettes of the adults dead with candy sticking out of their guts rather than... you know... showing us an opened abdomen with blood, guts and sugary goodness sticking out of everywhere. As someone who's opened my fair share of cadavers it isn't something I'd enjoy getting shoved in my face.:uhoh:

[Ssol]

I'm personally hoping that DEEN would avoid heading into the first twilight of Ep2 with the intention of animating it in it's full, candy-in-the-guts glory because it's just going to turn people off. Yes it was disgustingly gory and violent but part of it is shock factor. If DEEN intends to animate it completely and show us what it would look like if you had a cadny cane where your spleen should be then it'll just detract the viewers.

In essence, it'll leave people stuck on the visual violence of the scene rather than having them ask themselves who would do such a thing inside a closed room that is the chapel. I'd rather that they not focus on the gore but rather on the mystery. Given the nature of the scene overuse of animation would just assault the senses rather than leave it rationally confused.

I'd prefer they do it like episode 5, having shadow silhouettes of the adults dead with candy sticking out of their guts rather than... you know... showing us an opened abdomen with blood, guts and sugary goodness sticking out of everywhere. As someone who's opened my fair share of cadavers it isn't something I'd enjoy getting shoved in my face.:uhoh:

I think the level of gore in the series has been appropriate so far and they'll probably stick with it.

The next first first twilight discovery scene is the most gruesome event in Umineko. Showing Rosa's reaction will probably have the most impact. If this is handled right then the rest of the series will probably be ok too.

[k//eternal]

The next first first twilight discovery scene is the most gruesome event in Umineko.

Really? I would hand that honor to "NIGHTMARE MOUTH" at the end of the same EP...

[Jan-Poo]

I Can't wait to see Battler telling Maria that it's to early for her to ask someone to eat her.

[Ssol]

Really? I would hand that honor to "NIGHTMARE MOUTH" at the end of the same EP...

That scene is pretty gross too. :) I wonder what kind of sound effects they'll use.

For me, the haloween party scene had the most shock factor followed by the shed scene from ep1.

[MarthX]

I Can't wait to see Battler telling Maria that it's to early for her to ask someone to eat her.

Pretty sure that will be omitted just like Battler making Maria promise he can touch her breasts when she's older.

[izmosmolnar]

I can't wait to see the scenes when Ange's days in school are being described and her relations with "imaginary" friends. I wish it'd take like 2-3 episodes.




^ *Irony*

[June 1983]

The bullying and child abuse scenes with Ange and Maria EP 4 are some of the most intense scenes in the whole game, I think, and I'm looking forward to seeing them animated. In one of the anime only threads someone explained that Umineko isn't about tragedy like Higurashi, but about mystery vs. fantasy -- I get that, but I do think that Umineko has a strong undercurrent of tragedy, but it's just not the same as what was in Higurashi. The tragedy in Umineko is really about how human beings misunderstand and hurt each other and don't even realize it most of the time. I personally think that's going to be the overarching theme of the whole series in the end, and it really shows itself fully for the first time in EP 4.

[momobunny]

EP4 was probably my least favorite Episode actually. I'm hoping that Ange's backstory doesn't take up a lot of time from the anime... but it probably will.

[June 1983]

Boooo ;)

I actually cried a few times during EP 4 ... when Ange had to read her essay out loud and asked her classmates to kill her, and when Rosa tore up Sakutarou. :(

[Kaisos Erranon]

Boooo ;)

I actually cried a few times during EP 4 ... when Ange had to read her essay out loud and asked her classmates to kill her, and when Rosa tore up Sakutarou. :(

Don't forget the big reveal of what "uu-uu" actually means.

[momobunny]

Episode 2 is my favorite out of them. I found Episode 4 to be a bit too depressing, long, and confusing to enjoy as much... but that's just me. I just hope that when I'm watching the anime, I won't think "Oh gosh... okay Ange's life sucks, I get it. Move on." like I did with the game. ^^;

[June 1983]

Don't forget the big reveal of what "uu-uu" actually means.

Oh yes, omg. :upset: That was so heart-breaking. I can't wait to see people's response to that.

[Kaisos Erranon]

Episode 2 is my favorite out of them. I found Episode 4 to be a bit too depressing, long, and confusing to enjoy as much... but that's just me. I just hope that when I'm watching the anime, I won't think "Oh gosh... okay Ange's life sucks, I get it. Move on." like I did with the game. ^^;

I rarely hear VN players complain that a game is "too long"...

Oh yes, omg. :upset: That was so heart-breaking. I can't wait to see people's response to that.

Frankly, I can't wait to see gg's reaction. They keep tagging their releases with "THIS IS AN UU-UU FREE ZONE".

[momobunny]

I rarely hear VN players complain that a game is "too long"...

That's mostly how I felt about Ange and Maria's backstory. But like I said, that's just me.

[MarthX]

The Ange and Maria flash backs had a lot of redundancy. The anime could cut away some of it and still maintain the message.

[Mikachiru]

That's mostly how I felt about Ange and Maria's backstory. But like I said, that's just me.

Same here. The Komachi Ange chapters were longer then they should of been...At least I think so.

[June 1983]

Most of Ryukishi's scenes are much longer than necessary, to be honest. ;) The guy has a real gift for saying what could be summarized in 10 lines in 10 pages.

[unconfirmed]

Personally, I loved those "boring" parts lol. I thought Ange's future events provided us with more details about Maria and some major clues as to what's going on. Plus, those chapters were loaded with character development.

Most of Ryukishi's scenes are much longer than necessary, to be honest. ;) The guy has a real gift for saying what could be summarized in 10 lines in 10 pages.

Exactly.

[Saerianne]

I enjoyed Ange's scenes. It went for a while, I agree, but it was so sad. D:
I want to see the Uu-Uu scene, the gaapxgeorge/jessicaxronove scenes, the halloween scene, all the magical battles...
actually I want to see it all. ;_;

[Westlo]

The Ange and Maria flash backs had a lot of redundancy. The anime could cut away some of it and still maintain the message.

And that's what I'm hoping the anime does.. I liked a lot of what VN 4 did... but due to how much some scenes dragged on it's nowhere near the level that VN 3 set imo.

[Ssol]

The Ange and Maria flash backs had a lot of redundancy. The anime could cut away some of it and still maintain the message.

I think the scene where Maria explains to Ange that since there always has to be one kid who gets bullied in a class she choose to protect the others who would potentially be bullied.

This may end up being symbolic of what Beatrice is doing in taking the blame for all the crimes on the island. In reality she may not be responsible for any of it.

I hope that gets included in the anime.

[chronotrig]

Most of Ryukishi's scenes are much longer than necessary, to be honest. ;) The guy has a real gift for saying what could be summarized in 10 lines in 10 pages.

That might be true, but Ryuukishi has gotten a lot better since Higurashi.
Plus, you hardly seem to notice after the first half of each Episode, for the most part.

[June 1983]

Oh no, I definitely agree. I've gotten used to it, anyway. Actually, it's almost kind of charming. :heh: A lot like his art is!

[Marion]

I like his art too. It's not CG quality art or anything, but it does have a certain charm to it~

[Jan-Poo]

Most of Ryukishi's scenes are much longer than necessary, to be honest. The guy has a real gift for saying what could be summarized in 10 lines in 10 pages.

Actually I think of all the VN I've read Umineko is the one that suffers the least from redundancy. Maybe I was unlucky, but even the acclaimed Ever 17 has many parts that repeat themselves like 10 times and parts that are completely inane. It rarely happened to me to read Umineko and find myself bored but that happened to me a lot in many other VNs.

The only exception is the whole part of Maria and Ange past. I'm not saying that the story itself was bad I acually liked it, but it was a lot slower and redundant than what Ryukishi used to do.

[SealedTime]

I agree. Umineko is one of the VNs which you'll get hooked onto and start playing for hours. Ryukishi is teh master >__>

[MeoTwister5]

Kinda depends for me. Ange's story really dragged during the start and middle. Too much Angest at parts.

[USHIROMIYABRAWLER]

The Ange and Maria parts are the only thing that made me impatient.


Though anyone ever get the feeling that Beato wasn't just faking the whole thing in EP3 and meant some of it but when she realized the way she was going to win came up with something to make Battler hesitant?

[MarthX]

Beato was showing her moe side before getting the North Wind and Sun hint.

[USHIROMIYABRAWLER]

Yes, but what I'm saying is if she wanted to win she woulda waited until he signed before going all evil face.

[MarthX]

She says at 4's tea party that she didn't want to win that way. It's not really winning.

[d-one]

a lot of novelist beside ryuukishi also have the same style to explain it really long when you actually can wxplain it simpler. Like Tanigawa Nagaru in Suzumiya Haruhi, you can see how Koizumi talk reflect that Tanigawa like to explain it roundabout. Nasu Kinoko from Type-Moon also have his unique way to explain thing but somehow I really like that style.

I have no problem with Ryukishi writing style but somehow I get really annoyed with some scene with Umineko that I don't get it or believe it at all but he make it really grandiose. The best example is from ep.3 that is Virgillia vs Beato and Eva inauguration ceremony as Beatrice. Since I'm on anti-fantasy side, I keep screaming in my head WHAT THE HELL IS THIS :heh:

Ryukishi is trying his best to make people go into the anti-mystery side :heh:

[aldw]

Bernkastel reminds of of a cross between Takano and Yuuko Ichihara from xxxholic at times from the game episodes. I'm just hoping things turn out better in the series, cause to think of Rika being remotely anything like Takano stinks to high heaven, to put it mildly... :eyebrow:

[Auria]

Though anyone ever get the feeling that Beato wasn't just faking the whole thing in EP3 and meant some of it but when she realized the way she was going to win came up with something to make Battler hesitant?

Yeah finally someone thought the same ;___;
You can see a weird change of expressions in the last scene, even if she already changed once in the "owned" mode. I think she made up the "I could make this a north wind and sun strategy" in the later parts of the game when she realized she acted a bit .. well too soft.

[Saerianne]

Yeah finally someone thought the same ;___;
You can see a weird change of expressions in the last scene, even if she already changed once in the "owned" mode. I think she made up the "I could make this a north wind and sun strategy" in the later parts of the game when she realized she acted a bit .. well too soft.

I thought that too.
At the beginning of EP 4 she even goes a bit moe when Ronove pulls the prank on her.

[Jan-Poo]

Uhm... that would explain Lambda's reaction in the end.

[Auria]

Uhm... that would explain Lambda's reaction in the end.

Yeah, when Lamda said in the ??? of EP 4 I thought it was kinda similar. Bad Lamda for making people hate Beato ;_; MADAM 34 MAY BE A GOOD ACTRESS; BUT SHE IS A BAD DIRECTOR

EP 4.. in the first half it was like Ange here, Ange there dudeldu. Ange is the character I dislike the most, not because there was such an overkill of her in ep 4 but she is just getting on my nerves with her character x_x even if she has some very nice scenes. Though I found the Maria parts really great, when Rosa read the "Let's share our happiness" letter it drove a few tears to my eyes =0

[MeoTwister5]

I don't know if I forgot... but is there any indication that Shannon destroying the mirror in Ep2 is actually something she does for every game, or is it an isolated event for Ep2?

[Marion]

I don't know if I forgot... but is there any indication that Shannon destroying the mirror in Ep2 is actually something she does for every game, or is it an isolated event for Ep2?
I don't think it's ever stated, but I think it might be something consistent considering it's before October 4th 1986.

[MeoTwister5]

It's because when I think about it, if the destruction of the Torii is a consistent event not necessarily by Shannon's doing as needed by Beato/Perp, then the Torii itself would be central to the events that would eventually transpire.

That would mean that there's something about the Torii that is needed for the murders to take place.

[Jan-Poo]

Yeah, when Lamda said in the ??? of EP 4 I thought it was kinda similar. Bad Lamda for making people hate Beato ;_; MADAM 34 MAY BE A GOOD ACTRESS; BUT SHE IS A BAD DIRECTOR

EP 4.. in the first half it was like Ange here, Ange there dudeldu. Ange is the character I dislike the most, not because there was such an overkill of her in ep 4 but she is just getting on my nerves with her character x_x even if she has some very nice scenes. Though I found the Maria parts really great, when Rosa read the "Let's share our happiness" letter it drove a few tears to my eyes =0

I was talking about what Lambda said in the end of EP3 actually XD.

I always wondered why she reprimanded Beato for not doing enough to win even though it was a very close victory. But if it is as you said that Beato at the very last moment made it so that Battler would understand that something was wrong, then it makes sense.

[SealedTime]

The Ange and Maria parts are the only thing that made me impatient.


Though anyone ever get the feeling that Beato wasn't just faking the whole thing in EP3 and meant some of it but when she realized the way she was going to win came up with something to make Battler hesitant?

I liked the Ange parts tbh...but the MARIA parts were boring at times.

[vandakiara]

I liked the Ange parts tbh...but the MARIA parts were boring at times.

same here... I was getting pretty sick of Maria sometimes but I liked most of Ange's parts... specially that classroom one when they make her read that essay and all that happens after...

anyway, what I'm most looking forward to is EP3 - it was my fav <3 I loved the soft side of Beato *even if it wasn't actually "real"* and Kyrie's kickass scene <3 can't wait for that...

[Mint Kashiro]

Getting a bit into Episode 4, I'll be interested to see a few things animated.
Namely the discussion between Eva and Ange, and Ange's meeting with Bern, who stops her from killing herself. I think it'll be a beautiful scene if handled properly.

[Ssol]

Getting a bit into Episode 4, I'll be interested to see a few things animated.

Namely the discussion between Eva and Ange, and Ange's meeting with Bern, who stops her from killing herself. I think it'll be a beautiful scene if handled properly.

They can also animate the scene where Bern appears before the young Ange and tricks her into making a decision that would ruin her entire life.

Regarding episode 4, the final war of words between Beato and Battler might be epic so I'm interested to see that animated the most.

I'm still wondering how they are going to do the red text. Mabye the scene from the OP where the whole room turns red is a hint?

[vandakiara]

They can also animate the scene where Bern appears before the young Ange and tricks her into making a decision that would ruin her entire life.


I seriously doubt that as it's just an extra TIP and it's not even in the game itself... although I'd like to see it too...

[Marion]

They can also animate the scene where Bern appears before the young Ange and tricks her into making a decision that would ruin her entire life.

Regarding episode 4, the final war of words between Beato and Battler might be epic so I'm interested to see that animated the most.

I'm still wondering how they are going to do the red text. Mabye the scene from the OP where the whole room turns red is a hint?
Yeah I'm pretty sure that the room will turn red when red is being used. Unless the scene in the OP was a red herring, though I don't see what the point would be.

[Vega Lyra]

Regarding the red text, I also think the room will turn red. But for some reason, I think they'll do something extra as well.

I'm interested to see how Lambda will turn out to be like. Will we perhaps see the return of a Higurashi voice actress for her?

[Marion]

Regarding the red text, I also think the room will turn red. But for some reason, I think they'll do something extra as well.

I'm interested to see how Lambda will turn out to be like. Will we perhaps see the return of a Higurashi voice actress for her?
I wouldn't be surprised if she would be voiced by Miyoko's seiyuu, even though I always imagined her with more or less a Satoko-esque voice :heh:

[Vega Lyra]

I wouldn't be surprised if she would be voiced by Miyoko's seiyuu, even though I always imagined her with more or less a Satoko-esque voice :heh:

I know what you mean. :heh: I'm imagining a loud, egotistical girly voice. A bit on the high side.

[Mint Kashiro]

Even though Lambda looks like a little girl I still imagine her with Miyo Takano's voice. Especially since Bern has a deep voice, I don't have troubles imagining her with a deeper one. I will cry if she has Satoko's voice instead of at least Miyoko's. XD

As for the room turning red, I think that is the most likely option for it.

[TheForsaken]

Yeah I'm pretty sure that the room will turn red when red is being used. Unless the scene in the OP was a red herring, though I don't see what the point would be.
But how about Lambdadelta's red truth in the end of EP4 ?

[June 1983]

I have to admit I've always imagined Lambda with Satoko's voice, too. XD She just TALKS like her!

[Katsu Koneko]

Yeah agreed~ I've always thought of Lamb with her voice. xDD

owo I wonder how DEEN will handle...

Rosa's Party. :3

[Kaisos Erranon]

owo I wonder how DEEN will handle...

Rosa's Party. :3

Poorly? :heh:

[Marion]

Even though Lambda looks like a little girl I still imagine her with Miyo Takano's voice. Especially since Bern has a deep voice, I don't have troubles imagining her with a deeper one. I will cry if she has Satoko's voice instead of at least Miyoko's. XD

As for the room turning red, I think that is the most likely option for it.
Lambda is described as very childish though. Even Bern refers to her as child :heh: Maybe her voice would get a bit more darker when she's going all evil psycho but otherwise I don't expect anything close to Bern's deep voice when thinking of Lambda. Just me though.

[MarthX]

Lambdadelta should have Young Takano's voice.

[TsundereCake]

This was discussed pages ago (and on another topic), but looking through Miki Itou's past roles, she should be able to produce a Lambdadelta-like voice (Asa Shigure from Shuffle! is a good example.) But this may also get confusing with the fact that Eva-Beato should also have a younger sounding voice :/ In my opinion, Itou should voice Lambdadelta, and an entirely new actress should voice Eva-Beato (come on, Nakahara Mai : DDDDDDD)

[Marion]

This was discussed pages ago (and on another topic), but looking through Miki Itou's past roles, she should be able to produce a Lambdadelta-like voice (Asa Shigure from Shuffle! is a good example.) But this may also get confusing with the fact that Eva-Beato should also have a younger sounding voice :/ In my opinion, Itou should voice Lambdadelta, and an entirely new actress should voice Eva-Beato (come on, Nakahara Mai : DDDDDDD)
I don't want Miki to voice Lambda personally. She's already voicing someone in the anime. There's no real reason that she has to do Lambda as well as Eva. If that was the case then it would have been smarter to just cast someone else as Eva and give Miki a role as Lambda. Her doing both just doesn't seem right.

Lambda isn't a minor cameo role like Okonogi is. I wouldn't have a problem with Kosugi voicing Okonogi briefly when he comes up later in the season, even if he's already doing Krauss, because Okonogi shows up for that one scene and that's it. But Lambda has a much bigger role in all this, as we know well.

If anyone should take Lambda's role is Miyoko's seiyuu, considering Lambda is a younger childlike version of Takano.

[momobunny]

But Eva-Beato needs to be voiced by somebody who already voices Eva.

Eva-Beato and Eva are basically the same person.

Lambdadelta on the other hand isn't Takano.

Also Miyoko already has a seiyuu that would suit Lambda pretty well. There's no need to bring in yet ANOTHER seiyuu and confuse things even more. Besides, I'm sure they're expensive to get. >.>;

[shokku]

hmmm... but considering the layout for the voices they have now, it probably will end up with young takano being EVA-Beatrice's voice and having someone else from the higurashi cast (I really wouldn't doubt Mika Kanai) to do do lambda... But also to consider is the fact that they had Yukari Tamura use the exact same voice for bern in umineko as she did for frederica in the higurashi matsuri (really, its exactly the same) so I also wouldn't put it past them to try and use miyoko's voice for Lambda... it really feels like it could lean either way... plus, I would doubt them getting someone who wasn't part of higurashi for an important role...

[Marion]

hmmm... but considering the layout for the voices they have now, it probably will end up with young takano being EVA-Beatrice's voice and having someone else from the higurashi cast (I really wouldn't doubt Mika Kanai) to do do lambda... But also to consider is the fact that they had Yukari Tamura use the exact same voice for bern in umineko as she did for frederica in the higurashi matsuri (really, its exactly the same) so I also wouldn't put it past them to try and use miyoko's voice for Lambda... it really feels like it could lean either way... plus, I would doubt them getting someone who wasn't part of higurashi for an important role...
Of course. Only a handful of the VA cast for Umineko actually comes from Higurashi's cast (Miki (Takano), Yukari (Rika), Ono (Akasaka), Kosugi (Okonogi), Ohara (Rika's mother).)

[Deathkillz]

Miki Itou is more of a specialist for "grownup/mature" voices than voicing a "young kid". Though I have suspicious that the design for Lambda would really add on the years (just like how Bern turned out, where is my loli >.>). So depending on the design, maybe an older voice would be find for her...but still Miki would need to use a much younger voice than Takano.

[Marion]

Miki Itou is more of a specialist for "grownup/mature" voices than voicing a "young kid". Though I have suspicious that the design for Lambda would really add on the years (just like how Bern turned out, where is my loli >.>). So depending on the design, maybe an older voice would be find for her...but still Miki would need to use a much younger voice than Takano.
Looking at the character art both Bern and Lambda have chest, but it appears Bern's chest is more busty. Then again they stole Bern's chest so I wouldn't be shocked if they stole Lambda's.

But considering Lambda's personality I think a more childlike voice would be more suiting than something deep for Bern, who is described as somewhat emotionless and jaded, as I said before.

[momobunny]

Of course. Only a handful of the VA cast for Umineko actually comes from Higurashi's cast (Miki (Takano), Yukari (Rika), Ono (Akasaka), Kosugi (Okonogi), Ohara (Rika's mother).)

Don't forget Yui Horie (Hanyuu). :3

[Marion]

Knew I was forgetting someone XD;

But yeah, only a handful. As the story progresses the voices will only grow. Seriously the entire Umineko character list goes over 50 I think XD

[Jan-Poo]

Isn't there any joke about the fact that the K-On band was called "After School Tea party"?

I'm amazed nobody mentioned that ^^;

Like I don't know, the Seven Sisters forming a band named: "After game tea party".

[Deathkillz]

Oh I personally found Bern's voice very fitting for her, which was helped by her "grown up" appearance. I actually imagined that she would have a deep emotionless voice and it came out fine with Yukari using her Fredrica voice. I certainly can't see a lighter tone of voice for Bern to use...maybe even Mizuki nana's emotionless fate chan voice is considered a bit too high for Bern. Lambda definitely needs a childlike voice though, or she won't be able to pull off her stupid comments (super paper!!!) :heh:

[momobunny]

Knew I was forgetting someone XD;

But yeah, only a handful. As the story progresses the voices will only grow. Seriously the entire Umineko character list goes over 50 I think XD

There's also Yuu Kobayashi (Satoshi)... I almost forgot to include her. owo;

But yeah, considering how many characters there are, it's likely that only a fraction of them will be from Higurashi. (Unless they go and take every Higurashi seiyuu and somehow give them all roles that wouldn't match at all.)

Mai Nakahara as Siesta 00
Mika Kanai as Gaap
Satsuki Yukino as Virgilia
Soichiro Hoshi as Amakusa
Chafurin as Ronove
Fumiko Orikasa as Ange

Blah blah blah... (some of these might not be as bad as I think, I dunno seeing as I only have Higurashi to reference them all by. ^^; )

[June 1983]

XD Chafurin should seriously be the ship captain. It would work! Or maybe Professor Ootsuki.

Come on, let's just give in and have a big Higurashi reunion. So moving. :P

[momobunny]

XD Chafurin should seriously be the ship captain. It would work! Or maybe Professor Ootsuki.

Come on, let's just give in and have a big Higurashi reunion. So moving. :P

Yeah that would be fitting. =P
I've never had anything against the Higurashi cast coming to join in as Umineko characters. However if they do so, and later on in the answer arcs characters like a Satoko witch come in and her seiyuu is already voicing somebody else, then things might get a bit confusing. :heh:

[June 1983]

How about an Oishii witch? XD XD XD Oh dear oh dear. He'd go around asking meta-Battler to "step inside his car" because "it's air-conditioned!"

Unrelated, but it's really frustrating trying to explain certain concepts central to Umineko to some anime-viewers who don't seem to understand that we're not trying to give them theories, just an idea of how the story works. AND still try to avoid spoilers. I imagine it's only going to get worse.

[Marion]

How about an Oishii witch? XD XD XD Oh dear oh dear. He'd go around asking meta-Battler to "step inside his car" because "it's air-conditioned!"

Unrelated, but it's really frustrating trying to explain certain concepts central to Umineko to some anime-viewers who don't seem to understand that we're not trying to give them theories, just an idea of how the story works. AND still try to avoid spoilers. I imagine it's only going to get worse.
I think it would be best not to explain them. By the time episode 7 comes along they should begin to understand more about the game and what not. Don't rush it, it'll come to them in due time.

And if DEEN doesn't explain it enough then we'll help out I suppose.

[MeoTwister5]

Imagine the chaos that would erupt when the end of Ep3 rolls around then. I think it's time for us to think of contingency explanations when the fandom brains turn to sludge.

[Marion]

Imagine the chaos that would erupt when the end of Ep3 rolls around then. I think it's time for us to think of contingency explanations when the fandom brains turn to sludge.
Pft oh man.

"wtf is with Eva-Beatrice"
"Maria dies holyshit"
"Sniper bunny girls wtf?!"
"How did Battler figure it all out with a cigarette??"
"LAMBDA IS ACTUALLY THE FINAL BOSS??"

Their poor minds. I wonder if anyone will fall for Beatrice's trick though. Hopefully DEEN makes it as effective in the anime as the game did :heh:

[MeoTwister5]

Don't diss em sniper bunny girls bro.:D

Depends really. Ep3 was a pure sensory assault the moment is began so it's so easy to get caught up in the events to effectively question their validity. There are a lot of scenes that are very questionable but the way it's setup is meant to take you by the testicles (or ovaries whichever applies) and never let go.

[MarthX]

I think the reactions will be bigger once Umineko has its first magical fight. That's when it separates itself from Higurashi entirely.

[Alaya]

Considering many people's brains are already fried, EP2 and EP3 are going to kill them.

Some reaction I see so far in blogs and forums:

- Confuse (WTH just happen)
- Confuse and Angry (WTH just happen, this is going to be suck).
- Confuse but encourage to solve the mystery (WTH just happen. I don't believe that witch did them all).
- Beatrice worshipper (Beatrice-samaaaaa!!!)
- Witches exist. Battler is so idiot or childish that he doesn't accept it (and also anyone who doesn't believe in witches too).

Well, there are many more but it would be too much to lists :heh:

EDIT: After reading Klash's analysis, I feel that the new viewers are going to get mind-screwed so hard. Right now, they can make an argument that witch don't exist because they only appear in the purgatory, not in Rokkenjima. Next arc, with Beatrice in the Rokkenjima, it's gonna be really interesting to see how they react.

[MarthX]

Looking around on other forums, I see a lot of. "Why is Battler so stupid. Beatrice shows herself and does magic and still thinks they don't exist? This is dumb." And "I was disappointed that the culprit was a witch. Why should I care about the story now that I know it is?" A lot of people also failed to realize that the tea party was the after-life so they were upset with everyone being back alive, thinking it's some huge copout.

[Marion]

Yeah, that's why DEEN should have put up a sign or something like the game did. Because they didn't new viewers are confused in general. Hopefully they understand soon enough though :P