Teresa vs. Priscilla: What Really Happened? [Archive]

Ryus

2009-04-15, 18:02

Ah we finally got one.

In this scene, she doesn't seem to be looking to Clare. I think she simply lowered her guard and her Yoki (the eyes aren't even golden anymore)

http://i44.tinypic.com/jaz0bb.jpg

First off I agree, it's only in the anime where she looks back at Clare and the others. So her eyes where on Priscilla in the manga. (I really don't mind that change in the anime because it added more weight to Ilene's comments to Clare latter.)

However are you saying that because she lowered her guard, she decided to lower her power and her lower power level resulted in her not sensing the sudden sneak attack in time to react. Or are you saying that by being at a lower power level she had less reaction time to the attack and her detracted mind didn't fully process everything that was going on quick enough to react, sadly resulting in her death. Both fit Ilene's comments, i think... Since Ilene could have been saying the old Teresa's would never have lowered her power level and just killed her or the old Teresa would have never have hesitated before killing her. (I think the latter fits more but that's my opinion.)

Also this makes me wonder if Priscilla fully planned on moving her hand closer to her claymore or whether it was the awakened part of her mind that did it and the human side of her mind had no clue what was about to happen. I don't honestly know and have always wondered about it.

As to the Clare weakening Teresa warrior side, could Teresa have been like this before she meet Clare. After all with Rosemary, Teresa seemed very relieved that she would be fighting an awakened being rather than a Claymore (she later even more relieved to learn that she wasn't too late, since Rosemary had awakened before she sent her the black card). I personally believe that Clare did weaken her warriors resolve but as to how much I'm not so sure, Teresa could already have been leaning that way for some time.

Personally I'm very glad Teresa died in the story; it was very shocking, it changed the dynamic of the show from being about weak Yoma to Awakened Beings, added tons of depth to Clare, has continued to motivate the plot to this point, it really made me want more Claymore, it explained why Clare took in Raki, plus it made me love the character of Teresa (I fear I would have gotten bored with her, if her and Clare stayed together for too long. Plus her being alive now would have made battles to easy. Need help call Teresa. Isley is planning something, call Teresa. Riful's captured someone, call Teresa.). However I miss Teresa a lot now... :upset: and of course at the moment it first happened I hated it...

Cyclone

2009-04-15, 20:09

We have a VS thread? It's not a late april fool? :O

When I was reading Pure Yoki vs rest of the fandom :) discussion about Teresa death, I've found that reason for most of disagreements is a bad translation. So I'd like to ask, whose scanlation (group name, not link) is the best.

I'm not sure there have been any scanlations of those volumes. IIRC, 10sigh started around volume 4 or 5. The manga-sketchbook stuff is basically a rip off from the official Viz release, I think.
If you need specific sections looked at, I have the raws, and I'll be happy to clear up anything on the subject.

Cyclone

2009-04-15, 20:19

I think the dispute about Teresa vs. Priscilla is pointless by now, it has been discussed countless times in different threads or groups;

Oh, I disagree - it's very important. It's one of the foundational building blocks of the manga. Claymore is a manga with very strong characters. The events in this fight were the primary influence on 2 of both Clare and Pricilla. It's not possible to rationally discuss topics relating to either, without it having roots in the events of the Teresa and Pricilla fight.

One of the things that I wonder about is how Pricilla being spared by Teresa influenced her. Do you guys think that seeing Teresa and Clare, Pricilla's actions toward Raki could have been affected? That she regrets what she's done? That she finally remembers even?

As long as Pricilla and Clare are around, this topic will not die.

everyone has their opinion, I think bringing this thread might flare up the fights between the Teresa 'worshipers' and everyone else lol.

Hopefully it'll stay contained in this thread now, rather than infecting every other thread.

FragrantFlora

2009-04-15, 23:34

I don't think Priscilla remembers really well what happened back at the Teresa and Clare arc. Does she?

Teresa has extraordinary skill and she would have remained the strongest. One thing I've thought of is that Priscilla would become stronger than Teresa if she fixed her mindset. Probably if she became more mature and more normal, she would have become stronger in the long run, but maybe there would also be an instance where she wouldn't be able to beome stronger than Teresa because of her failure to think right.

Ryus

2009-04-16, 01:50

Oh, I disagree - it's very important. It's one of the foundational building blocks of the manga. Claymore is a manga with very strong characters. The events in this fight were the primary influence on 2 of both Clare and Pricilla. It's not possible to rationally discuss topics relating to either, without it having roots in the events of the Teresa and Pricilla fight.
Agreed

One of the things that I wonder about is how Pricilla being spared by Teresa influenced her. Do you guys think that seeing Teresa and Clare, Pricilla's actions toward Raki could have been affected? That she regrets what she's done? That she finally remembers even?

Please note all the is only my opinion and I'm not putting forth a long argument for it. I'm just mentioning what I think happened.

The first reaction to being spared was shock, the second was rage. Since in her naive notions about being the good guy got a huge slap in the face. Add that to her boiling blood, she just didn't think straight and clung to her old belief. All the while powering up, eventually she just lost control and charged after Teresa. In short she refused to accept the fact that she might be the bad guy here.

Long after the fight I have a feeling what remained of her humanity couldn't accept what she had done. So her humanity amplified the minor regression she had earlier. Eventually this ate away at her mental capacities until she meet Raki. As to what she thinks now I don't know but maybe Teresa taking in Clare has something to do with it or maybe because he showed her kindness, all that was left of her humanity clung everything on him; hopes, desires, desire for forgiveness, and her regret (hence why she's not eating, also to make sure Raki doesn't get mad at her).

I've wondered what will happen when Clare and Priscilla meet up again. Too much depends on circumstance but if Clare doesn't just attack and says why shes about to (or wants to) kill Priscilla, one of my countless thoughts was Priscilla will just breakdown and cry her eyes out, maybe even beg for forgiveness. Who knows how Clare will react to that, after all she saw Priscilla crying on her hands and knees right before she killed Priscilla. Plus Clare is some what damaged herself...

As long as Pricilla and Clare are around, this topic will not die.

Not true, we will talk about it for along time after the fact. Hopefully saying that the way it was concluded was brilliant!

Hopefully it'll stay contained in this thread now, rather than infecting every other thread.

I suspect quick talks will arise if someone uses Teresa vs Priscilla in a discussion to make another point and someone else disagrees. However, hopefully we can get them to move that aspect of the debate here.

Solace

2009-04-16, 02:12

I think Clare has some understanding of what Priscilla was going through with her awakening, now having gone through it herself partially (along with many of the other screwed up things Claymores experience).

I think her rage when the meeting happens will be more focused on the anger of what the Organization did to all Claymores rather than on Priscilla herself. Not that Priscilla is exempt from hatred but if you look at the ever expanding scope of the story there are bigger and bigger problems. The Organization has tipped the power balance of the continent back in their favor and there is the looming force outside of the continent that will eventually come into play.

I think we'll see a continuing evolution of Clare as the story continues. I'm not sure how many have noticed yet, but she is acting more and more like Teresa. Not in the "faint smile" type of personality, but more in her actions and choices as she slowly becomes stronger and wiser. I remember the scene when Clare was dreaming of Teresa, thinking back on it now I wonder if it was more than just a dream sequence.

At an earlier point in the story, I would say she would be consumed with revenge (and indeed that is the path that the anime took). But now, I think she's more concerned with the bonds she has formed and the increasingly complex problems that the various factions are involved in.

If anything I'd say her sole obsession is Raki, if only the story didn't side track her constantly. :heh:

Anyway, I don't think revenge for Teresa will be directed at Priscilla, but at the real monsters behind it all. Teresa understood this, and I think Clare will too.

Cyclone

2009-04-16, 02:57

As I said before in several times in other threads, if there is a reconcilliation between Clare and Pricilla- however brief - I hope Pricilla does something to earn it. I am still bitter over the Teresa thing, and I'd be unhappy if the mere act of avoiding Clare for a decade was enough for Clare to just forget about it and let bygones be bygones.

As for Clare, yes she is becoming more like Teresa. Chiba has mentioned this before on several occasions, but the dream about Teresa that Clare had in the Slasher's arc marked the start of her learning how to use youki sensing in battle (Teresa's skill). So the odds of it being a mere coincidence are very slim. The partial awakening Clare had in Rabona does seem to be trigger to awakening some of Teresa's power in Clare.

It's because I believe that Clare will eventually inherit Teresa's power, and because I believe that if there is to be a fight, Clare must beat Pricilla (not possible yet... but maybe eventually, maybe...), that I believe that Teresa was more powerful than Pricilla. If she wasn't, Clare would have no hope in winning, and I think that would go against the genre somewhat.

FragrantFlora

2009-04-16, 04:53

O-M-G!! I might consider leaving this thread. We now have *ahem*

In my opinion, Priscilla must eventually die in the manga. Yagi created a character that would draw hatred towards her because of what she did to Teresa, thus upsetting many Teresa fans if Priscilla's act is just not justified.

Sleepy Speculator

2009-04-16, 06:07

Has anyone else apart from me wondered why it looks like Clare shares a blind spot that got Teresa killed?

1.The infamous cheap shot occured whilst Teresa had her sword in a relatively low forward kind of guard position.

ch23 page 23?

2.And Clare lost her first duel to Miria when she was in the exact same position

ch26 page 18?

3.And again Clare barely avoided this attack in her second duel much much later (i think experience covered for it)

ch67 page 16?

Could it be there's an actual blind spot in yoki sensing? much as in the human eyes? The reason i say this is because in the 3 examples above, in the third example Clare could not use yoki sensing, and avoided losing the duel, though the force of the blow knocked her back with her sword in hand. (which is better than being disarmed, terrible pun i know)

And whilst Teresa could fight without yoki sensing, it was her most defining skill. She even picked up in speed and ability etc, whilst Priscilla was fighting blindly, once it became apparent that she could not fight using yoki sensing. (i think this merely indicates a switch in fighting styles, to one relying on sight as opposed to sense).

However due to Ilena's insistence and Priscilla's inexperience all 4 claymores attacked using energy release, which allowed Teresa to rever to yoki sensing style. At this point Teresa can not be blindsided by yoki based attacks in theory. And all 4 warriors were not only using it but exposed to residue aura that would take months to eradicate.

By contrast Clare's ability as an offensive warrior is yoki energy release, which at first was incompatible with her sensing ability, she had to choose which style to fight with. So Clare has learnt to fight for the most part without yoki sensing.

BishounoTeresa

2009-04-16, 06:22

One of the things that I wonder about is how Pricilla being spared by Teresa influenced her. Do you guys think that seeing Teresa and Clare, Pricilla's actions toward Raki could have been affected? That she regrets what she's done? That she finally remembers even?

Maybe she was affected subconsciously without realizing it and that might explain her behavior towards Raki; or he just reminded her of her father, brother or something, and her mind being like that of child now she felt like he could protect her or something. I don't think she remembers or even realizes much of what she has done before she met Raki, she was too unstable before that.

In my opinion Priscilla must eventually die in the manga. Yagi created a character that would draw hatred towards her because of what she did to Teresa, thus upsetting many Teresa fans if Priscilla's act is just not finished.

I agree; it just wouldn't feel right if the main negative character just gets away, even if miraculously Priscilla gets her memory back and is able to comprehend what has happened or even regret it, I don't think Clare would ever forgive her and let her off the hook.

Traun

2009-04-16, 07:30

In my opinion, Priscilla must eventually die in the manga. Yagi created a character that would draw hatred towards her because of what she did to Teresa, thus upsetting many Teresa fans if Priscilla's act is just not justified.

No writer has ever, EVER, made a character specifically to be hated, especially Yagi. If you think that Priscilla was created with the sole intent of being killed by Clare, you should re-read the manga, her character was developed WAY too much for this.

it just wouldn't feel right if the main negative character...

She is not.

FragrantFlora

2009-04-16, 08:16

No writer has ever, EVER, made a character specifically to be hated, especially Yagi. If you think that Priscilla was created with the sole intent of being killed by Clare, you should re-read the manga, her character was developed WAY too much for this.

Don't over react please. I'm talking on the behalf of people who hate Priscilla. They really want her to die. I'm fine with whatever ending happens as long as the organization topples and Galatea does not die :p For readers, it just really ruins everything. I don't know if you can feel it, but a lot of readers have this super negative energy towards Priscilla. Now imagine if a character you really hate actually goes on to live. You may accept it but then you also want the crimes to be justified. It's a life for a life sometimes when it comes to manga or anime. Anyway, my opinion is completely subjective, so I'm sorry if you're a Priscilla lover/fan. In my opinion, it would be best for the story.

OMG!! Of course some writers create characters that intend to be hated. Some writers gain inspiration by thinking of character traits they don't like in an individual and from that create a character. For me, Priscilla lacks personality and that is all.

yezhanquan

2009-04-16, 08:29

Priscilla would probably be played as a piece on someone's board. As for who the player is, well, guess we'll have to wait. Rubel? Some as-of-now unknown side?

BishounoTeresa

2009-04-16, 08:55

She is not.

Oh excuse me, one of the main negative chars; and the one most hated by the main character, who's soul purpose for living is to kill her...

Ryuken

2009-04-17, 13:12

I have always loved this particular discussion. In fact, got my first rep for a post dedicated to just that.

And there are still more things to be discussed. Like when Prissy was down Teresa was totally focused on her but didn't see Prissy reaching for the sword which was on the ground.:)

hell88

2009-04-17, 14:00

Maybe Teresa had thought that Priscilla had given up.

BishounoTeresa

2009-04-17, 14:24

Maybe Teresa had thought that Priscilla had given up.

That's what I thought too; she thought Priscilla was ready to die and had given up, so she didn't think she was a threat anymore.

DragoZERO

2009-04-17, 17:38

That's what I thought too; she thought Priscilla was ready to die and had given up, so she didn't think she was a threat anymore.
Any normal Claymore wouldn't want to awaken so when she begged for help Teresa listened and let her guard down. Priscilla is probably one of the first Claymores to awaken without a care like that in a long time.

shelter

2009-04-17, 19:42

Priscilla is probably one of the first Claymores to awaken without a care like that in a long time.

It is likely she didn't know the consequences behind Awakening as other warriors did. She did cry & beg, but whether it was a ruse to get Teresa to lower her guard seems highly possible.

shippU

2009-04-19, 01:53

Hi, just signed up on the forum so please welcome me :)

sooo, to plunge in....

Agreed

The first reaction to being spared was shock, the second was rage. Since in her naive notions about being the good guy got a huge slap in the face. Add that to her boiling blood, she just didn't think straight and clung to her old belief. All the while powering up, eventually she just lost control and charged after Teresa. In short she refused to accept the fact that she might be the bad guy here.

That's also my reading of how the scene plays out in both anime and manga, maybe with the addition that Priscilla's pride (as a warrior) took a huge blow. It's really only after Irene (Irene-sama!!! = coolest claymore) tells her she won't be able to defeat Teresa right now no matter what, that Priscilla blasts up her power and lunges off after the two.

my poor Irene-sama...indirect contributor to Teresa's untimely end :( ...and also to the beginning of the Claymore saga :p

it's pretty evident that Teresa let her guard down. Nobody on the scene expected what happened next to happen. We know that (most) Claymores would prefer to die rather than awaken, so much so that it's even ritualised (the black card, Elena) so when Priscilla bows her head down as though accepting her fate, NOBODY expected her next move. Least of all, the now-humane Teresa. It looks planned on Priscilla's part, which would make her previous idealistic behaviour so much more ironic.

Long after the fight I have a feeling what remained of her humanity couldn't accept what she had done. So her humanity amplified the minor regression she had earlier. Eventually this ate away at her mental capacities until she meet Raki. As to what she thinks now I don't know but maybe Teresa taking in Clare has something to do with it or maybe because he showed her kindness, all that was left of her humanity clung everything on him; hopes, desires, desire for forgiveness, and her regret (hence why she's not eating, also to make sure Raki doesn't get mad at her).

I've wondered what will happen when Clare and Priscilla meet up again. Too much depends on circumstance but if Clare doesn't just attack and says why shes about to (or wants to) kill Priscilla, one of my countless thoughts was Priscilla will just breakdown and cry her eyes out, maybe even beg for forgiveness. Who knows how Clare will react to that, after all she saw Priscilla crying on her hands and knees right before she killed Priscilla. Plus Clare is some what damaged herself...

Priscilla is a bit of an enigma in that, right now, her existence per se seems pretty purposeless to an extent...she isn't plotting or scheming, isn't even rampaging anymore, just acting as Raki's yoma-radar lol...yet she isn't dull at all since we remain constantly aware of how dangerous she is. If anything, i'd say if it wasn't for the fact that he's hanging around with her, Raki would still remain the most two dimensional character in the story.

tho' i seriously hope the much anticipated showdown between Clare and Priscilla won't end up in a cryfest and a banquet o' love :p

just my 2 bits

shippU

2009-04-19, 02:12

sorry for posting twice in a row... but got to disagree that Priscilla started having feelings of contrition after her awakening. That's not the sense we get right after she kills Teresa. In fact, she revels in her awakening...and presumably goes off on a rampage so savage it grabbed Isley's attention, forcing him to try and stop this new monster.

Isley was perceptive enough to placate Priscilla after realizing just how strong she was and kept her in check with the promise of 'going down South' until Raki came along, after which she transferred the majority of her feelings to Raki.

There isn't much indication in the manga anyway to show that Priscilla regretted any of her actions, including the destruction of unnamed townships. The anime does show her sobbing as she digs into human guts, but that's the anime. i loathe those scenes :mad:

Solace

2009-04-19, 02:51

One of the extra scenes (at least I remember it being in one of them) shows Priscilla wandering around in a bit of a daze before devouring an entire town because she is hungry. When Isley shows up she defeats him but she's not exactly warriorlike in doing so. It's like her body was on auto pilot, and her mind went far far away somewhere else. Pure instinct.

Her mind was broken way before she awakened imo. The way she acted during the Teresa fight was extremely childlike (her ranting about the rules to Teresa, screaming for her papa, acting like she was the one who killed her family, etc). I doubt she was even thinking of anything "evil" when she killed Teresa. It was more like self preservation. Even after awakening, she revels in the feeling of it, but she acts like a child would when in a position of superiority, toying with her opponents, getting bored, and finding something else to do.

Compare this to other awakened beings, who are much more aware of what they've become and are full of emotion (Riful, Isley, Dauf, Agatha, etc.,). The closest to Priscilla might be Ophelia, I suppose. Alicia and Beth seem to be "tools" with no personality because of what happened with Raphaela and her sister in the past.

FragrantFlora

2009-04-19, 06:07

It is likely she didn't know the consequences behind Awakening as other warriors did. She did cry & beg, but whether it was a ruse to get Teresa to lower her guard seems highly possible.

I strongly disagree with how people think that Priscilla did it just to lower her opponent's guard. It's just not part of her personality as a claymore. Priscilla has a very complex personality but as she keeps saying, she does things with honor and integrity and cheap shots are absolutely a no-no for her.

MisterJB

2009-04-19, 07:12

Awakened

2009-04-19, 09:30

Hi, just signed up on the forum so please welcome me :)

sooo, to plunge in....

That's also my reading of how the scene plays out in both anime and manga, maybe with the addition that Priscilla's pride (as a warrior) took a huge blow. It's really only after Irene (Irene-sama!!! = coolest claymore) tells her she won't be able to defeat Teresa right now no matter what, that Priscilla blasts up her power and lunges off after the two.

my poor Irene-sama...indirect contributor to Teresa's untimely end :( ...and also to the beginning of the Claymore saga :p

it's pretty evident that Teresa let her guard down. Nobody on the scene expected what happened next to happen. We know that (most) Claymores would prefer to die rather than awaken, so much so that it's even ritualised (the black card, Elena) so when Priscilla bows her head down as though accepting her fate, NOBODY expected her next move. Least of all, the now-humane Teresa. It looks planned on Priscilla's part, which would make her previous idealistic behaviour so much more ironic.

Priscilla is a bit of an enigma in that, right now, her existence per se seems pretty purposeless to an extent...she isn't plotting or scheming, isn't even rampaging anymore, just acting as Raki's yoma-radar lol...yet she isn't dull at all since we remain constantly aware of how dangerous she is. If anything, i'd say if it wasn't for the fact that he's hanging around with her, Raki would still remain the most two dimensional character in the story.

tho' i seriously hope the much anticipated showdown between Clare and Priscilla won't end up in a cryfest and a banquet o' love :p

just my 2 bits
Welcome:D

I think that happened because her life was in danger. She wasn't that irrational when she cleaned the floor with Rigardo.

It's something like survival instinct. Maybe her mind still denies the fact that she is an Awakened Being right now but when her lifes is in danger, the AB mind takes over.
I agree. Her yoki is stronger than a normal Claymore so it might be able to take control of Pricsilla's mind when Priscilla is about to die, just like the fox in Naruto. She has two personality, we always see her yoma side come out when her life is in danger.

She is like Wiggle in lord of the ring, lol. Raki is her precious.:heh:

Ryuken

2009-04-19, 13:20

Sleepy Speculator

2009-04-19, 15:32

The only issue with Priscilla's supposed innocence, is her complicity with Isley, if she was in a daze/ entirely unaware of what she was it's hard to believe she would leave Raki's side to go and stand by Isley after he was wounded in the fight with Luciella. I'm not saying she isn't schizophrenic, but that in itself is a different kettle of fish.

The real problem is even if she seeks redemption, she may really be beyond it, as the beast that 'awakened' may not take too kindly to finding itself in close proximity to Clare, and Clare herself doesn't know that Raki has Priscilla of all people in tow, searching for her like some sort of saviour.

Cyclone

2009-04-19, 16:10

An interesting point here - Alicia and Beth have no personality, and are as close as anyone has gotten to fully awakening and returning. Priscilla and Ophelia both are the emotional types, and basically lost their sanity after awakening. Even Irene's control over a fully awakened arm is ascribed to being emotionless.

It raises an interesting question on just how emotions influence an awakening. It appears the more emotional a Claymore is, the harder it is to turn back, and the more the resulting AB is unstable.

yononaka

2009-04-19, 17:35

When Clare meets Priscilla, she should thank her for being alive. For not killing her in the awakening aftermath; and for being so casual about Irene that she could get her very useful arm later. Priscilla all but deserves to be killed by Clare for these simple oversights. :heh:

It appears the more emotional a Claymore is, the harder it is to turn back, and the more the resulting AB is unstable.
Didn't both Clare and Miria use emotions to turn back from their initial awakening? Granted, Miria also got into it because of emotions, but Clare didn't. Well, I guess it all depends on how you distinguish between emotions and the lofty concept of "human heart".

MisterJB

2009-04-19, 17:57

The only issue with Priscilla's supposed innocence, is her complicity with Isley, if she was in a daze/ entirely unaware of what she was it's hard to believe she would leave Raki's side to go and stand by Isley after he was wounded in the fight with Luciella. I'm not saying she isn't schizophrenic, but that in itself is a different kettle of fish.

IMO, she still thinks of herself as a Claymore.
In her mind, the good always win and Isley was good to to her. So, if the good always wins, it's no surprise that she (a Claymore) can defend the wounded Isley from an Awakened Being like Riful.

But probrably, right now, her mind is child like. She is really strong but she has no idea why. When she reachs her limit and the time comes when she will absolutely have to feed, she will act on ABs instinct. So, her AB mind (instincts) will take over her.

Sleepy Speculator

2009-04-19, 18:22

But that's the inherent problem...

Human Priscilla <child> wouldn't go anywhere near 2 huge fighting monsters, and even if she did suicidally wonder that way, wouldn't confront Riful in any meaningful manner, oh look here comes a child and a fecking huge man, i'll stare them down...

Hybrid Priscilla <claymore> even if blind or confused as to the nature of Isley, which she wouldn't realhy be, would fight the confrontational Riful, because that's what claymores do, fight yoma, and Priscilla hates yoma above practically any other claymore apparently. As a hybrid she also wouldn't be able to ignore what Riful is...

Yoma Priscilla <awakened> would not only know what Isley and Riful, is but would be aware they are weaker than her.

And the problem with schizophrenia, or more properly multiple personality disorder of this type, is that Human Priscilla thinks she's human (maybe a claymore) and Yoma Priscilla thinks she's an AB. The problem is they share the same body and are in fact the same person.

Raki by his own admission hasn't seen Yoma Priscilla, or he's you know would be eaten as he says to Renee. In fact as some have theorised he may be labouring under the misconception that Clare can somehow 'help' Priscilla. Which is the tragedy in the making, because he's towing the biggest beserk trigger towards the much traumatised Clare.

Clare's entire backstory is a 'break the cutie' not once, not twice but three times by my count. Most are lucky to survive one run in with yoma and then they get dragged off to become hybrids. Clare had her family murdered, herself raped (well i assume that's whats happening), rescued, then abandoned, only to be caught by another yoma and serially abused and beaten, rescued (this time by Teresa), beaten and abandoned again, abandoned by Teresa and adopted at the same time, then had the entire village she was in slaughtered by bandits and herself probably abused again, then rescued, only to finally have her rescuer Teresa beheaded in front of her by the beserk Priscilla who effectively only managed a cheap shot, during an act of mercy that she herself pleaded for. And then some years down the line this same murderer is gonna be towed into her presence and will probably ask for mercy which would be hard to take at face value...

MisterJB

2009-04-19, 18:30

As far as we know, Priscilla might not know what Riful was. Maybe she just felt that Isley was really wounded and she hurried to his side.
Riful appeared like Isley had predicted but Priscilla didn't had to do anything. She didn't had to threaten her or even stare her down. Priscilla simply looked at Riful and the AO ran away scared. Priscilla probrably wans't even aware that she was supossed to defend Isley.

And I know little about schizophrenia.

Clare's entire backstory is a 'break the cutie' not once, not twice but three times by my count. Most are lucky to survive one run in with yoma and then they get dragged off to become hybrids. Clare had her family murdered, herself raped (well i assume that's whats happening), rescued, then abandoned, only to be caught by another yoma and serially abused and beaten, rescued (this time by Teresa), beaten and abandoned again, abandoned by Teresa and adopted at the same time, then had the entire village she was in slaughtered by bandits and herself probably abused again, then rescued, only to finally have her rescuer Teresa beheaded in front of her by the beserk Priscilla who effectively only managed a cheap shot, during an act of mercy that she herself pleaded for. And then some years down the line this same murderer is gonna be towed into her presence and will probably ask for mercy which would be hard to take at face value...

Wow...now that you said it...Clare had a really sad life.

MisterJB

2009-04-19, 18:54

I just had a crazy idea. The Awakened Priscilla migth still think of herself as a human. So, if she (a human) can turn into a monster, then why would she think that the others AB are Yoma? All the ABs she ever saw first appeared in human form and because of that, in her mind, they are as human as her. If Riful had appeared io AO form Priscilla migth have attacked her.

Awakened

2009-04-19, 22:03

Sleepy Speculator

2009-04-20, 05:38

That's really a discussion for another thread, but i mentioned it because when the crunch time comes and the entire scene is in some way repeated, there's not really an excuse for Clare not to kill Priscilla.

This thread is about Priscilla and Teresa and what really happened and the present discussion is about complicity or innocence of Priscilla. Clare witnessed the duplicity or awakening of Priscilla which resulted in Teresa's murder. Should the situation repeat itself with Clare standing where Teresa stood before her, she would have to know that the monster in front of her is capable of lying, or is infact schizophrenic enough to not realise it is a monster. Which is problematic when you factor in the death toll caused by Priscilla's rampage.

shippU

2009-04-20, 05:50

Thanks for the welcome, Awakened :)

Personally, i don't see that Priscilla's using a dirty trick detracts from her character status at all. In fact, doesn't it add to it? I like the thought that she stooped to the level of a cheap ruse, flinging aside her previous grandstanding on right & wrong, in order to gain her victory, she becomes so much more complex and interesting this way. More human, if you like.

What I mean is, the frailty of conventional human notions and principles are focused in Priscilla. She reminds me of Rubel's words to Clare, something on the lines of 'every era has its heroes, too bad you're not one of them' in the Slashers arc or somewhere. This holds true for Priscilla as much as Clare, if not more (since we can reasonably presume that Clare is going to disprove Rubel's assessment of her in the end). Pris has everything going for her from the start: immeasurable power, unshakeable loyalty to the Organisation (and concern for others - she does pause in the heat of battle to check on a comrade) plus an acute sense of right conduct. Her fall from grace is just as sad in its own way as Teresa's demise.

She really comes across as a poignant figure, when all's said and done, precisely because she shows us how innately fallible we are. Some people might think of Teresa and Clare as different sides of the same coin, but for me that would have to be Teresa and Priscilla instead. She is very much in the mold of tragic fallen hero as Teresa, albeit in another way, a negative way. Teresa redeems herself in our eyes by her progression towards humanity, Pris loses it.

Anyways, I was searching for an Irene-sama thread so howdaGranmaMosesdidIendupinthisone!:eyespin:

amarillis

2009-04-22, 17:14

I think Priscilla ,or ,say,the BAD one of Priscilla split personality,used precisely this moment as the only chance to kill Teresa.IT's my speculation,but I think for Claymors this short, very last moment head off your camerade to stop the awakening was actually almost a holy ceremony, which may need possibly whole mental concentration ,probably a special art of concentration,who knows..and Priscilla knew that exactly and acted.She interrupts the battle, lets Teresa not just go ahead and kill , but requires virtually this *ritual*, this last opportunity for Claymore to die in honor, not as a monster. And not a moment she lets her own claymore outside the field of view .(!!!!!!)
And Yes,it's influention of Cler,that Teresa BELIEVED -Priscilla wish to die.(*Old *Teresa ,Teresa bevor Cler,was probably never believe that.) (Rosemary!!! ,for example).Cler with her love transformed Teresa, and Priscilla used this new and only *weakness*.

dream-seeker

2009-05-24, 05:12

Oh.. there's actually a thread for Teresa vs. Priscilla. Heh

'What really happened' huh? As I read the manga over and over, Teresa might have provoked Priscilla a little. Priscilla probably mistook Teresa's advice as an insult, a big blow to her ego. Priscilla couldn't beat Teresa unless she goes all out. She already knew that, and gambled, to the expense of herself awakening. I don't think she ever accepted defeat at the time, it was probably a strategy for Priscilla.

Does Priscilla really have multiple personality? I thought, Priscilla reverting back to a child-like intelligence was probably an effect of her awakening. As Irene said "though we mature/grow, we do not age". So, Priscilla must have been taken to the org at a young age. As a result, she is a lot immature. She could have plenty of potential if she was trained longer and more experienced as a warrior.

But to whoever is stronger, I suspect Teresa is. Mental and Physical strength, plus agility and speed. She just had a God-given talent. Teresa already excelled based on experience. Teresa however is very honest and sincere, she loves scaring villagers but doesn't mean she was lying. That was her weak point, she expected her enemy to keep their word, just because Teresa always keeps her word to anyone. She doesn't lie or the need to. Her death was just tragic, that's all.

ANYWAY Teresa said, "she'd rather kill an awakened than a comrade and that makes her feel better". So to me, Teresa was not weak as others may think because of Clare. Teresa was already compassionate even before Clare and the child Clare only brought that part of Teresa out in the open.

And so is "Yoki" = Demonic energy? Is it fueled by hatred? If so, Teresa has more hatred than Priscilla. And she probably had more tragic past than whatever Priscilla went through. If her parents/relatives sold her and they are still alive, Teresa must have wanted revenge every second of her life. While Priscilla's past was she hated her father who was a yoma, at least she got revenge by killing her own father. So, "who" Priscilla couldn't forgive/hated most was her own self, IMO. That must mean the difference in their power.

irvinethearcher

2009-06-08, 08:24

i know that there r a lot of Teresa fanboy but u guys GOT 2 LET IT GO N GET OVER IT.
Fact:
as godly as Teresa is she got WTF pwn/killed by Prisy
as fast as Teresa is she got WTF pwn/killed by Prisy
as hawt as Teresa is she got WTF pwn/killed by Prisy
as power as Teresa is she got WTF pwn/killed by Prisy

TERESA GOT 1 SHOTED BY PRISY! end of story

fanboy can dream all u want, can do a million fanfic but as fact stand, Teresa was taken down in battle by Prisy.

Teresa can be all mighty godly powerful and all but what count is the end result of the fight and WE ALL KNOW THAT PRISY 1 SHOTED TERESA CUTING HER HEAD OF CLEAN.

when all is said and done, Prisy was the victor and teresa was the false god who got put 6 feet under and cant even turn her head to look up at Prisy.

so pls stop saying how Teresa is so much more powerful the Prisy. we all know the out come of the fight.

Prisy is so much more powerful then teresa was or will ever be.At the pennicle of teresa's power, she got her head cut off clean by an naive immature Prisy who just enter the rank. what goes around comes around like how Teresa took care of Rosemary, ex-#1, Prisy took care of Teresa and make her the next ex-#1.

cry+whine all u want, fact stand, Prisy cut off Teresa head clean.

Don't confuse potential with reality. IMO Teresa was more powerfull and had more potential. Evan a mature priscilla would probably stand no chance against teresa. The experience thing and knowing her limits thing ist crap because IMO teresa never released more than 10-30% yoki and fought only against adversaries who were to her like yoma for a normal claymore. No way to gain any experience from that even if she lived a thousand years.
But i know what you are getting at. In real world battle the victor sometimes is not the stronger, smarter and faster warrior but the machiavellian and rutheless one sometimes wins despite being much weaker.
Like in the movie "By the Sword".

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-06-08, 08:44

:p The plain simple truth is that Teresa had lost that cold blooded edge that Irene thinks you need to be fit for battle. The Teresa of before meeting Clare would've ended the fight by decapitating Priscilla when Priscilla was thinking that she didn't want to die, instead of putting away her sword. Irene is partially right about Teresa meeting Clare being a hindrance, but then on the other hand fighting for a cause be it real or perceived can be an advantage in a fight too. As for Priscilla winning. She became what she hated and went against the moral fibers that she held so dear. Honestly, that is a fight where I see no winners, even if a cheap shot got the kill.

irvinethearcher

2009-06-08, 09:55

It is like you said. teresa's killerinstinkt wasn't pure and true anymore ;) Like the guy in full metal jacket said. She only killed to defend clare. We can call it weakness but humans are weak creatures, so in the end teresa made the step back to humanity at the cost of her life.

Shiek927

2009-06-08, 11:05

I can't believe you actually went ahead and continue the discussion dunames started :heh:

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-06-08, 11:19

as hawt as Teresa is she got WTF pwn/killed by Prisy

I'm still trying to figure out what hawt is. :heh:

Shiek927

2009-06-08, 11:23

I'm still trying to figure out what hawt is. :heh:

It is the way it sounds Gangsta.....which is why it's so stupid :heh:

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-06-08, 11:42

:) It's just hard to see the connection between being hot and getting owned.

irvinethearcher

2009-06-08, 12:14

I can't believe you actually went ahead and continue the discussion dunames started :heh:

I felt like it because it remembered me about this movie i have seen "by the sword".

Shiek927

2009-06-08, 12:17

:) It's just hard to see the connection between being hot and getting owned.

Dunames basically was trying to say "As hot as Teresa is, she got killed by Priscilla, get over it". What amazes me the most though is why
he suddenly came out of nowhere, blaring and ranting about this. The 92 thread was pretty peaceful until then :heh:

It's amazing how different English is when you don't use spelling or grammar.

Ryuken

2009-06-08, 14:40

He was a complete no no to me.:nono::)

Shiek927

2009-06-08, 15:05

He was a complete no no to me.:nono::)

Who? Dunames? :heh:

As weird as it was, it was funny. If he was a troll, he actually did more then most of them since he posted his theory. Impossible to decipher, but he actually made an effort.

He's a special troll :heh::p

Shiek927

2009-06-08, 15:38

Are you from Snider's time?

No, but the name is familiar. He was the one who came back shortly after as Erom right?

Didn't have an account back then, still a lurker.

clarakiss~

2009-06-08, 17:19

ah... c'mon it's good once in a while when someone unknown comes along and shakes the boat like dunames and snider had, just to see where everyone's allegiance lie. teresa vs. priscilla is certainly one of those... :)

SagaraSouske

2009-06-20, 14:39

The way dunames posted may be rude and lacking useful contribution to the discussion. Some of his sentiment or frustration does echo in some of us that are not part of the Teresa's army of worshipers.

A question I asked long ago, in which I will ask again - why is there a need to elevate Teresa's power level to such a point that her 20% basically > everyone else? Isn't it enough for her to have the exact same impact if she had been equal to Priscilla or slightly stronger? That would still make her the strongest being in the Manga and still make Clare inheriting Teresa's flesh having a chance to grow and confront Priscilla eventually. I feel that the need to put her on a high pedestal rather does injustice to her character.

Also, making her that powerful belittles Clare's accomplishments. If all it takes is for Clare to draw out 20% of Teresa's potential and she will be able to be stronger then Priscilla, all her training, her effort and her friend's sacrifice lose much of their meaning. It would be better for Clare to use what she inherited from Teresa and combine it with her own potential and skills learned through her own experience to surpass Teresa at some point in the future.

Lastly, people keep on conveniently ignore the fact that Priscilla is a green horn that lacks experience and her potential, while monstrous, has just started to be realized when she fought Teresa. Compare 10% Teresa > 'AO' Rosemary to 10% Teresa having just as much a hard time against inexperienced 80% claymore Priscilla barely using any of her latent potential, I just fail to see how you can arrive at the conclusion that Rosemary is AO class and therefor 10% Teresa > AO.

irvinethearcher

2009-06-20, 16:48

A question I asked long ago, in which I will ask again - why is there a need to elevate Teresa's power level to such a point that her 20% basically > everyone else? Isn't it enough for her to have the exact same impact if she had been equal to Priscilla or slightly stronger?

That's because she ... was just that much stronger ;)

Lastly, people keep on conveniently ignore the fact that Priscilla is a green horn that lacks experience and her potential, while monstrous, has just started to be realized when she fought Teresa. Compare 10% Teresa > 'AO' Rosemary to 10% Teresa having just as much a hard time against inexperienced 80% claymore Priscilla barely using any of her latent potential, I just fail to see how you can arrive at the conclusion that Rosemary is AO class and therefor 10% Teresa > AO.
The problem is that priscilla as far as we know is as experienced as theresa. I don't know how often i wrote this but theresa had no adversary to gain experience from. Even rosemary was only a sparing partner and even from this fight there was nothing which made her stronger after the fight was over. There is only one way priscilla could become stronger if we ignore experience. Maturing. Perhaps she wasn't already full-grown?
But i doubt that it would matter because
we know about 14 - 16 year old girls who are already world class in physical sports like swimming or tennis. Compensate the insane difference in power between teresa and priscilla with only maturing? I can not deny the possibility but i doubt it.
So far priscilla was teresa's one and only serious adversary.

Perhaps only perhaps, rafaella showed teresa some good moves as a little child.
We'll see.

I don't think teresa had ever released more than 30% of her yoki. IMO this was what she feared the most - the monster sleeping inside of herself.
She said often that she is a monster like she told rosemary in her last seconds.

As for clare. Her real problem is to evoke and control her power. Perhaps it will be more complicated because there is probably more inside of clare than only teresa's power.
Another problem is that she has to survive in order to do this and that she has a weak yoma:human ratio.

At the end i can only say prodigies or monsters like teresa exist even in our real world.
Look in wiki for "Gauss" or "von Neumann" those are real monsters against those we all are probably like yuma against teresa.
Somehow i think teresa is even weaker than Neumann if you think he worked on the manhattan project.

Shiek927

2009-06-20, 17:38

A question I asked long ago, in which I will ask again - why is there a need to elevate Teresa's power level to such a point that her 20% basically > everyone else? Isn't it enough for her to have the exact same impact if she had been equal to Priscilla or slightly stronger?

Irvine is right, the difference between Teresa and Priscilla is extreme, just as extreme as Priscilla and everyone else. While Priscilla's full strength is that of 2 Abyssal Ones, Teresa's strength is easily that of 3, or even 4 Abyssal Ones.

Also, making her that powerful belittles Clare's accomplishments. If all it takes is for Clare to draw out 20% of Teresa's potential and she will be able to be stronger then Priscilla, all her training, her effort and her friend's sacrifice lose much of their meaning. It would be better for Clare to use what she inherited from Teresa and combine it with her own potential and skills learned through her own experience to surpass Teresa at some point in the future.

Perhaps it feels that way, but remember that Claire is holding only 1/4 of Teresa inside of her. All her training and hardships don't lose any meaning, because she's combining that strength with the arm of a Number 2, and the various experiences and techniques she learned. Will it all be stronger then fully awakened Teresa if Claire fully awakened probably not. I know it seems like she's just leeching off of Teresa's great skill, but the fact she has Teresa inside her is part of what makes Claire so powerful, and potentially, the strongest character in existance.

Lastly, people keep on conveniently ignore the fact that Priscilla is a green horn that lacks experience and her potential, while monstrous, has just started to be realized when she fought Teresa. Compare 10% Teresa > 'AO' Rosemary to 10% Teresa having just as much a hard time against inexperienced 80% claymore Priscilla barely using any of her latent potential, I just fail to see how you can arrive at the conclusion that Rosemary is AO class and therefor 10% Teresa > AO.

Weren't you the one who told me that she released all of her potential when she fully awakened? How are we to exactly now how much of her potential was out when she was almost there? A bit strange to now suddenly say she was 'barely' using it.

Whether or not Priscilla ever had any experience is moot; all her potential was fully released as if she had as much battle experience as a Claymore as Teresa.

SagaraSouske

2009-06-20, 18:43

The problem is that priscilla as far as we know is as experienced as theresa. I don't know how often i wrote this but theresa had no adversary to gain experience from. Even rosemary was only a sparing partner and even from this fight there was nothing which made her stronger after the fight was over. There is only one way priscilla could become stronger if we ignore experience. Maturing. Perhaps she wasn't already full-grown?
But i doubt that it would matter because
we know about 14 - 16 year old girls who are already world class in physical sports like swimming or tennis. Compensate the insane difference in power between teresa and priscilla with only maturing? I can not deny the possibility but i doubt it.
So far priscilla was teresa's one and only serious adversary.

There are different types of experiences - experiences in learning how to utilize youki - techniques are created that way. I doubt Irene just magically learned Quicksword right after she became a claymore or young Teresa's youki reading skill being as refined and advanced as she had before her death. Priscilla just became a claymore not long ago and aside from her natural youki suppression, she really hasn't learned anything. There is experience in fighting in general - which Teresa has lots of, possible more then anyone in her generation because she was able to survive all her battles, yoma or AB. This is another area Priscilla has basically little experience, which showed when Teresa didn't need to rely on youki reading and still able to easily defeat Priscilla. There is experience in dealing with youki releases, Teresa has limited experience in this department because as you said, no opponent forced her above 30%. But overall, Teresa is a veteran in utilizing her abilities, skills and her general combat experience comparing to Priscilla is night and day.

Two ways for Priscilla to realize her potential. One, gain combat experience and youki utilization experience the same way all claymore do - fight yoma and ABs. If she survives long enough like Teresa, she will eventually get to Teresa's level. Two, by awakening. One of her AB trait is explosive growth. The awakening process released all of her latent potential - unlike most other claymores. Ritful mentioned that Claymore can get stronger and awakened to be stronger ABs. Well Priscilla's special trait allowed her to skip the getting strong as claymore part and awakened as if she already became a claymore that rivals Teresa. Thus her gap between prior and after awakening is far wider then others.

I don't think teresa had ever released more than 30% of her yoki. IMO this was what she feared the most - the monster sleeping inside of herself.
She said often that she is a monster like she told rosemary in her last seconds.

There is mostly because she never has a need to raise above 30% rather then because she fears her own power. When she told Rosemary her last words, that's like typical trash talking employed when one is overpowering another. All claymores fear releasing too much because that leads to awakening. Teresa is not immune to that. But one of her strength is youki reading. She knows exactly how much youki she possesses and how much she needs to release to defeat her opponent. The fear is not for her own power but rather for using it too much and make her lose control and awaken.

As for clare. Her real problem is to evoke and control her power. Perhaps it will be more complicated because there is probably more inside of clare than only teresa's power.
Another problem is that she has to survive in order to do this and that she has a weak yoma:human ratio.

I don't think the lower yoma:human ratio will effect how much of Teresa's potential she will receive. Strictly speaking, she fused with the strongest being in the Claymore world while others merely fuse with regular yoma.

Learning to control her youki or other techiniques that she learned is precisely how she gain experience. Learning to control it even better in order to do controlled awakening requires even more experience and knowledge. This is how she is unlocking Teresa's potential inside her - by learning, practicing and absorbing what others taught her.

SagaraSouske

2009-06-20, 18:49

Weren't you the one who told me that she released all of her potential when she fully awakened? How are we to exactly now how much of her potential was out when she was almost there? A bit strange to now suddenly say she was 'barely' using it.

Whether or not Priscilla ever had any experience is moot; all her potential was fully released as if she had as much battle experience as a Claymore as Teresa.

Because Priscilla just became a claymore not long ago and both Irene and Teresa commented on her lack of experience but possessing great potential. She didn't have time to gain experience or realize her potential when she fought Teresa. Her potential is fullfilled when she awakened - and she proceed to cut off Teresa's head. Teresa never fought a Priscilla that was on par with her.

irvinethearcher

2009-06-21, 08:35

Two ways for Priscilla to realize her potential. One, gain combat experience and youki utilization experience the same way all claymore do - fight yoma and ABs. If she survives long enough like Teresa, she will eventually get to Teresa's level. Two, by awakening. One of her AB trait is explosive growth. The awakening process released all of her latent potential - unlike most other claymores. Ritful mentioned that Claymore can get stronger and awakened to be stronger ABs. Well Priscilla's special trait allowed her to skip the getting strong as claymore part and awakened as if she already became a claymore that rivals Teresa. Thus her gap between prior and after awakening is far wider then others.

Priscilla or theresa can not "fight" yoma or ABs. Or do you fight the bug under your shoes?
The only way to really train priscilla is perhaps to send her as a claymore against riful or isley or luciella. But remember, she never released any yoki and the org could not know how strong she really was and would probably not risk to annoy the AOs without the guaranty of victory.
And if the army is right, teresa could not even "fight" the AOs. So how would she train herself or get experience. Experimenting with her limits and risking to extinguish all life on the island would be the only way. I don't think she was this kind of power hungry person. Those freaking things like soul-link or memory melting were at this time not at priscilla's or teresa's disposal. As long as we don't know more about rafaella's and teresa's relationship we can say that at the moment pris and teresa fought against each other teresa's only advantage was that she was full-grown and priscilla was only a perhaps 16 or 17 year old teenager. But do you think she gains that much(10-30% against 70%-80%) yoki from only becoming a woman?
Theresa trained her yoki sensing perhaps this was the only thing she could train.
Probably driven by pure boredom and seeing it as a tool to deceive everyone about what she was really capable of. And this skill was not of great use against priscilla and not of use against rosemary.

If she survives long enough like Teresa, she will eventually get to Teresa's level.

Like she "survived" against all those yoma in this street when she first met the three others:heh:

Irene especially commented on her lack of mental stability. But experience is a different thing. Like the word says you can only gain it from making appropriate experiences. Like you will not become a faster runner if you are walking every day only 10 minutes around the block.
You NEED the right stimulus.

There is perhaps another way for theresa and priscilla to get stronger. They could have run around the whole island in 5 hours or so but i still have the feeling none of them was this kind of character.

The ratio affects her life and made it very difficult especially at the beginning. As long as clare is not able to somehow connect with what is laying dormant inside of her she is compared to priscilla or theresa as claymores still weak and vulnerable, even now. As the manga goes on things turn more and more into her favor she has now a better standing than before but still...
What happens with clare and teresa at the end no one knows probably something like raciella will be born but there are differences.
Clare is better fused with teresa and teresa never awakened. Clare has all of rafaellas knowledge and she is half-awakened so i think this being would be more like some epiphany than a dark and unknown entity.

camilla

2009-06-21, 13:07

A question I asked long ago, in which I will ask again - why is there a need to elevate Teresa's power level to such a point that her 20% basically > everyone else? Isn't it enough for her to have the exact same impact if she had been equal to Priscilla or slightly stronger? That would still make her the strongest being in the Manga and still make Clare inheriting Teresa's flesh having a chance to grow and confront Priscilla eventually. I feel that the need to put her on a high pedestal rather does injustice to her character.

From my point of view, the valid motivation for Yagi to keep stressing Teresa's enormous power is something that goes beyond her fight with Priscilla, who was stronger that time and who would be in the future had the two of them faced another duel. I take it as a way of reminding us that Teresa, despite following the Organization's orders to the letter ( well, until she met the bandits ), limited herself to maintain her real strength and abilities secret instead of using them to rebel against the Org, the MiBs, their researches and experiments.

And if we think about it, it's shocking, isn't it? We have a being so powerful who doesn't take advantage of what she possesses to rule the world, rebel or take revenge in any way... Sure, we have to consider what, whether or not she knew of the Organization producing yomas, the continent, the war, the Dragonkins etc. Did she merely condone everything she was aware of? She simply didn't care anymore about anything? I wouldn't think so.

Teresa's role and revelations in the manga are far from being over. Now more than ever since we know of Clare's mistake and presume the mistake itself and Raffaella's memories and feelings she received must contain new information about Teresa.

Then again, you're lucky enough to be able to read the manga as Yagi himself intended it. I'm basing all this from the two licensed manga editions that I have ( none of them being the Viz one ) and the various online English translations, which, even if sometimes they contadict the ones with the others :heh:, lead me to believe and consider the Priscilla versus Teresa fight also as a pretext, a sort of hint to tell us that yes, Teresa and Priscilla were the two strongest beings of the island, but to be careful and pay attention to Teresa's power because there was something relevant behind it. Something that has yet to be told us by the mangaka.

SagaraSouske

2009-06-21, 13:14

Priscilla or theresa can not "fight" yoma or ABs. Or do you fight the bug under your shoes?
The only way to really train priscilla is perhaps to send her as a claymore against riful or isley or luciella. But remember, she never released any yoki and the org could not know how strong she really was and would probably not risk to annoy the AOs without the guaranty of victory.
And if the army is right, teresa could not even "fight" the AOs. So how would she train herself or get experience. Experimenting with her limits and risking to extinguish all life on the island would be the only way. I don't think she was this kind of power hungry person. Those freaking things like soul-link or memory melting were at this time not at priscilla's or teresa's disposal. As long as we don't know more about rafaella's and teresa's relationship we can say that at the moment pris and teresa fought against each other teresa's only advantage was that she was full-grown and priscilla was only a perhaps 16 or 17 year old teenager. But do you think she gains that much(10-30% against 70%-80%) yoki from only becoming a woman?
Theresa trained her yoki sensing perhaps this was the only thing she could train.
Probably driven by pure boredom and seeing it as a tool to deceive everyone about what she was really capable of. And this skill was not of great use against priscilla and not of use against rosemary.

Like she "survived" against all those yoma in this street when she first met the three others:heh:

Fight opponents of near equal strength just means you gain experience faster. Fighting someone far less powerful does not mean you gain 0 experience. There is also the skill and knowledge in utilize your abilities, which is not something that you are born with. A fresh just turned Claymore Teresa - despite her massive potential, will not be able to kill ABs with ease or be able to fend off a claymore hunting team. Sure she can prob still wipe the floors with regular yomas but even human can kill them as long as they can detect them. How do you think Alica get stronger by 'training'? There aren't too much opponents near her level for her to train on if she has to gain experience that way. Yet the Org trained her to be strong enough to awakened to AO level.

Priscilla may be able to kill yoma with no trouble because her natural ability is high enough to allow her to do that. It doesn't mean she will kill AB with the same ease. I doubt she has yet been sent on a AB hunting team before she became part of the Teresa hunting team. Just look at Clare, she was able to easily kill multiple yoma without breaking a sweat before meeting up with Miria, Helen and Deneve. It still took effort and coordination between Miria and her to kill the male AB. Saying experience do not matter or Priscilla does not need experience with the mountain of evidence of how Clare gained her experience in 90 chapters is just ridiculous.

Irene especially commented on her lack of mental stability. But experience is a different thing. Like the word says you can only gain it from making appropriate experiences. Like you will not become a faster runner if you are walking every day only 10 minutes around the block.
You NEED the right stimulus.

There is perhaps another way for theresa and priscilla to get stronger. They could have run around the whole island in 5 hours or so but i still have the feeling none of them was this kind of character.

The ratio affects her life and made it very difficult especially at the beginning. As long as clare is not able to somehow connect with what is laying dormant inside of her she is compared to priscilla or theresa as claymores still weak and vulnerable, even now. As the manga goes on things turn more and more into her favor she has now a better standing than before but still...
What happens with clare and teresa at the end no one knows probably something like raciella will be born but there are differences.
Clare is better fused with teresa and teresa never awakened. Clare has all of rafaellas knowledge and she is half-awakened so i think this being would be more like some epiphany than a dark and unknown entity.

Claymore raise in rank is another indication that they gain experience, Miria is one such example. Any of their techniques they employed, they learned through experience. Knowing their limit is learned through experience.

It doesn't matter if Clare has a much lower start or higher start like Priscilla and Teresa, the fact is she learned to improve youki reading through experience in fighting. She improved her Quicksword through experience in fighting (against AB Ophelia and Dauf). She learned more about youki manipulation from Galatea when she felt her using it and saved Jean with it. Her receiving the training from Irene is again another form of gaining experience. Without these experiences, Clare would not be the Clare we see now.

Priscilla, despite starting out real strong, has plenty of room to grow. She can learn to fight normally on par with Teresa without youki; she can develop her own techniques using youki; she can learn the limit of her release so she will not go over 80% by accident; she can use her youki more efficiently like Teresa such that she will not need to raise above 30% often to fight her opponents instead of release to close to 80% and just wasting most of her youki. If Ritful were observing the fight, she would have commented that 90% of Priscilla's movement are wasteful like how she commented no Clare.

Claymore can get stronger by surviving long enough is a given in the Manga. There are so many irrefutable evidence to that and I don't know how you can just ignore all that by narrowly defining that they can only get stronger by fighting opponents of similar strength. They get stronger by fighting both easy enemies and enemies above their strength. They get stronger by just have more time to practice their youki control and abilities or create new ones, time which Priscilla barely had before the Teresa fight. They get stronger by watch other claymores fight or fighting along side them, which Priscilla had little opportunity prior to Teresa fight. Raw potential does not translate into ability without training, experience, learning to bring out those potentials. Priscilla was an experimental prototype specifically created with extremely high potential (There was whole article of analysis written in the data book regarding this subject). But lacking experience is exactly what made her lose to Teresa easily and awaken prematurely.

SagaraSouske

2009-06-21, 13:16

From my point of view, the valid motivation for Yagi to keep stressing Teresa's enormous power is something that goes beyond her fight with Priscilla, who was stronger that time and who would be in the future had the two of them faced another duel. I take it as a way of reminding us that Teresa, despite following the Organization's orders to the letter ( well, until she met the bandits ), limited herself to maintain her real strength and abilities secret instead of using them to rebel against the Org, the MiBs, their researches and experiments.

And if we think about it, it's shocking, isn't it? We have a being so powerful who doesn't take advantage of what she possesses to rule the world, rebel or take revenge in any way... Sure, we have to consider what, whether or not she knew of the Organization producing yomas, the continent, the war, the Dragonkins etc. Did she merely condone everything she was aware of? She simply didn't care anymore about anything? I wouldn't think so.

Teresa's role and revelations in the manga are far from being over. Now more than ever since we know of Clare's mistake and presume the mistake itself and Raffaella's memories and feelings she received must contain new information about Teresa.

Then again, you're lucky enough to be able to read the manga as Yagi himself intended it. I'm basing all this from the two licensed manga editions that I have ( none of them being the Viz one ) and the various online English translations, which, even if sometimes they contadict the ones with the others :heh:, lead me to believe and consider the Priscilla versus Teresa fight also as a pretext, a sort of hint to tell us that yes, Teresa and Priscilla were the two strongest beings of the island, but to be careful and pay attention to Teresa's power because there was something relevant behind it. Something that has yet to be told us by the mangaka.

Well that still doesn't answer my question, all that you said can be achieved when Teresa is strong enough to be slightly above Priscilla.

Ryuken

2009-06-21, 13:51

Well, I would definitely say that she would surpass Teresa, and I guess it won't take too long now. And as far as survival goes, yes, she did survive against the yoma in the street or ally I would have to say. And also I would like to say that she even did survive against Isley when they first met. I'm sure that Isley wouldn't have hesitated to finish her off at any moment during their battle in the ex-chap. But rather, it was what she did in that split second of an instant that made him earn her respect for all time.:)

camilla

2009-06-21, 13:56

Well that still doesn't answer my question, all that you said can be achieved when Teresa is strong enough to be slightly above Priscilla.

I don't dislike Priscilla in any way. So, there isn't a double meaning behind what I'm about to say. And power isn't the only way I use to value a character in the claymoreverse. And I'm not brought to prefer the stronger ones to the less stronger ones.

That being said, maybe Yagi thought Priscilla's power wasn't enough for what he had in stock and the story he wanted to tell required another character to be stronger. Hence the need to elevate Teresa's power level you asked.

The reason why it had to be Teresa to make her so uber strong only Yagi knows it. I can only think there is a well thought meaning behind this and one day he'll reveal it to us.

You know what I also think? That both Priscilla and Teresa's powers ( that now resides partially in Clare ) will be required to defeat something/someone and in the end what is going to count is not who the stronger one was but who joined forces with who to bring peace back to the island.

SagaraSouske

2009-06-21, 14:14

I don't dislike Priscilla in any way. So, there isn't a double meaning behind what I'm about to say. And power isn't the only way I use to value a character in the claymoreverse. And I'm not brought to prefer the stronger ones to the less stronger ones.

That being said, maybe Yagi thought Priscilla's power wasn't enough for what he had in stock and the story he wanted to tell required another character to be stronger. Hence the need to elevate Teresa's power level you asked.

The reason why it had to be Teresa to make her so uber strong only Yagi knows it. I can only think there is a well thought meaning behind this and one day he'll reveal it to us.

You know what I also think? That both Priscilla and Teresa's powers ( that now resides partially in Clare ) will be required to defeat something/someone and in the end what is going to count is not who the stronger one was but who joined forces with who to bring peace back to the island.

I have no problem with speculations like that. What I have problem with is the arbitrary elevation of Teresa's power for the sake of Teresa. Yagi can achieve what he wanted us readers to see about Teresa by making her equivalent of Priscilla. He doesn't need to make her super powerful, and that is actually detrimental to the story (I already gave reasoning above.) Being a fan of Teresa is fine, I am one. There is no need to worship her and make her into a goddess that is untouchable.

If Teresa's power is way above Priscilla's, then combining two as you speculated would not happen. Why would you need Priscilla's power when Teresa is 4 to 5 times stronger then her.

camilla

2009-06-21, 15:08

I have no problem with speculations like that. What I have problem with is the arbitrary elevation of Teresa's power for the sake of Teresa. Yagi can achieve what he wanted us readers to see about Teresa by making her equivalent of Priscilla. He doesn't need to make her super powerful, and that is actually detrimental to the story (I already gave reasoning above.) Being a fan of Teresa is fine, I am one. There is no need to worship her and make her into a goddess that is untouchable.

If Teresa's power is way above Priscilla's, then combining two as you speculated would not happen. Why would you need Priscilla's power when Teresa is 4 to 5 times stronger then her.

I have to differ. Well, who knows what they might be finding themselves fighting against in the future. And what level of strength is required. As of right now, Clare is nowhere near Teresa's power and who's to say she will ever reach her or surpass her in the future. irvinethearcher is gonna negate me the access to the Clare Fan Club for having said this.:heh:

I can think of a reason for elevating Teresa's power to the point of making her an untouchable goddess, as you say: provide the force needed to fight the Organization or whoever is the final villain.

If you hadn't been a fan of Teresa, I would still have debated with you. I don't discriminate.;)

irvinethearcher

2009-06-21, 16:10

And if we think about it, it's shocking, isn't it? We have a being so powerful who doesn't take advantage of what she possesses to rule the world, rebel or take revenge in any way... Sure, we have to consider what, whether or not she knew of the Organization producing yomas, the continent, the war, the Dragonkins etc. Did she merely condone everything she was aware of? She simply didn't care anymore about anything? I wouldn't think so.

Teresa's role and revelations in the manga are far from being over. Now more than ever since we know of Clare's mistake and presume the mistake itself and Raffaella's memories and feelings she received must contain new information about Teresa.

After reading your comment i had a very sad idea. Could it be that despite all the power theresa possesed and despite being unbeatable she felt helpless and powerless somehow?
Her faint smile and her sad eyes. Came those really only from the betrayal of her family in her childhood?
1.)If we assume rosemary was AO and teresa believed in the actions of the org like perhaps dietrich, she could have simply walked first to the north slaughtered isle than south slaughtered luciella and at the end disposed of riful in the west. After that she could have glanced the island from yoma and ABs. Or fought against all three together with 50% yoki release.
So she must have known that the org was evil or at least not good, therefore she hid her power.
2.) But why did she not simply wiped out the org? This is far more interesting than 1.)

It must have been a really frustrating state of being strong enough to beat everything on the island but despite that to can not change anything for what ever reason. Perhaps this state was the second and the far greater reason for her sadness. Perhaps she assumed something but was not sure about it, so she did only her job but nothing more. This would be the easiest explanation.

I have to differ. Well, who knows what they might be finding themselves fighting against in the future. And what level of strength is required. As of right now, Clare is nowhere near Teresa's power and who's to say she will ever reach her or surpass her in the future. irvinethearcher is gonna negate me the access to the Clare Fan Club for having said this.

Nah .. it is common knowledge that clare is still weak compared to teresa. I don't admire clare for her strength physical strength, i simply like her because of her pure character:)

irvinethearcher

2009-06-21, 16:38

There aren't too much opponents near her level for her to train on if she has to gain experience that way. Yet the Org trained her to be strong enough to awakened to AO level.

Just look at Clare, she was able to easily kill multiple yoma without breaking a sweat before meeting up with Miria, Helen and Deneve. It still took effort and coordination between Miria and her to kill the male AB. Saying experience do not matter or Priscilla does not need experience with the mountain of evidence of how Clare gained her experience in 90 chapters is just ridiculous.

Alicia and Beth did one of the few things with which teresa could have achieved an advantage of experience over priscilla: Soul link or limit breaking/reaching training. But as far as we know teresa refused to release any yoki as long as she could. I don't think she did those kind of training and you said it too, she did not have to. What we try to do is to estimate priscilla's raw potential against teresa's raw potential. Therefore we have to determine her state of training.
And as far as i see it neither teresa nor priscilla did more training than the basic organisation training. Please believe me, there is no way teresa could gain any experience which would made a significant difference from fighting the adversaries we have her seen fighting.
Not experience who would have helped her against priscilla.
Her maturity had perhaps helped her to be more stable than priscilla but we are only interested in raw talent and power here at the moment they fought each other, right?

Clare has the latent potential of teresa inside her. For her the normal laws of the claymore world are not valid. She is half-awakened and got the yoki-sensing and perhaps even the preemptive aura detection from teresa(dream). Again, we are only interested in the state of training of priscilla and teresa at the moment they fought each other. And i say this state was nearly equal.

Claymore raise in rank is another indication that they gain experience, Miria is one such example. Any of their techniques they employed, they learned through experience. Knowing their limit is learned through experience.

Miria fought against adversary's who gave her the appropriate stimulus i mentioned before.
To get better in training you NEED this stimulus. Neither teresa nor priscilla had enemys strong enough to give them this stimulus. Miria half-awakened.

SagaraSouske

2009-06-21, 17:03

The easiest explanation is that she does not have that kind of power. The sadness can also come from wanting to change but unable to due to lacking the power to do so.

If she knew she had that kind of power and she knew about the Org, she could have killed all 3 AO and wipe out Org and prevent Claymores from ever being made again. There was no need to do 1 but not 2 or vise versa. If she have that kinda of power no matter in what state she is in, Priscilla would not have been able to surprise her and decapitate her. That's like a regular yoma chop off a top ranked claymore's head in a ambush. That power disparity is just too big for something like that to be possible. Even the weakest Fab 4, carrying another claymore, were able to run from Ritful, who is still far more powerful then any of them. A Teresa that is 5 times as powerful as Priscilla cannot dodge a surprise attack? When Priscilla is clearly using youki? What happened to her youki reading that allowed her to dodge all previous ambushes when youki is used? It makes far more sense that the attack was fast enough that despite her youki reading abilities, she wasn't able to dodge it, whatever mental state she might be in. Priscilla would have to be much faster then Teresa in order to achieve that kind of surprise - far less speed is required to dodge an attack when you can feel it coming, not to mention Priscilla acted in Teresa's field of vision.

SagaraSouske

2009-06-21, 17:49

Alicia and Beth did one of the few things with which teresa could have achieved an advantage of experience over priscilla: Soul link or limit breaking/reaching training. But as far as we know teresa refused to release any yoki as long as she could. I don't think she did those kind of training and you said it too, she did not have to. What we try to do is to estimate priscilla's raw potential against teresa's raw potential. Therefore we have to determine her state of training.
And as far as i see it neither teresa nor priscilla did more training than the basic organisation training. Please believe me, there is no way teresa could gain any experience which would made a significant difference from fighting the adversaries we have her seen fighting.
Not experience who would have helped her against priscilla.
Her maturity had perhaps helped her to be more stable than priscilla but we are only interested in raw talent and power here at the moment they fought each other, right?

Alica and Beth's physical training is separate from their soul link training. Soul link training do not make you fight better. What use is soul link and controlled awakening when you awakened to be a weak AB.

Just because Teresa do not release much youki, that does not mean she have not learned how to utilize her youki. Her not needing to raise youki is actually a sign that she is using her youki far more efficiently then anyone else. That efficiency and knowledge is gained through experience.

Raw potential is just raw potential. Having it does not make the present Priscilla equal to the future Priscilla. There is no use comparing Priscilla's raw potential to Teresa's already realized potential. Teresa already learned to use her talent, skill through experience, Priscilla has not had the time to equalize that. As I pointed out, when neither uses youki, Teresa was a far better fighter then Priscilla. Did Teresa some how born with that combat skill?

You did not correlate the examples I raised to counter that experience can be raised without requiring to fight opponents that is equal in power to you - that Clare was able to improve despite fighting regular yomas, that Clare was able improve simply by practicing, that all claymores are improving themselves to become stronger. You also didn't present any case to show that Claymores master their techniques without experience.

Clare has the latent potential of teresa inside her. For her the normal laws of the claymore world are not valid. She is half-awakened and got the yoki-sensing and perhaps even the preemptive aura detection from teresa(dream). Again, we are only interested in the state of training of priscilla and teresa at the moment they fought each other. And i say this state was nearly equal.

Both Irene and Teresa's observations conveyed that Priscilla is still inexperienced but with high latent potential. The inexperienced part is implied when you say someone has great potential and may one day be equal or surpass you. The data book analysis points out that Priscilla was an experiment with high potential but was a mistake to send an inexperienced Priscilla to hunt down Teresa.

They are equally trained and yet Teresa owning Priscilla when neither are using youki. The difference here is combat experience that Teresa has but Priscilla lacks.

Miria fought against adversary's who gave her the appropriate stimulus i mentioned before.
To get better in training you NEED this stimulus. Neither teresa nor priscilla had enemys strong enough to give them this stimulus. Miria half-awakened.

Miria also improved without so called adversaries that give her stimulus. After she half awakened, she still got stronger from the point in slashers arc where she has a tough time against the AB to Pieta where she was killing male AB her group assigned to with ease. You do not NEED to fight someone who is equal to you in order to improve and gain experience.

Tempest35

2009-06-21, 21:11

Heh, the moment when Priscilla took Teresa's head - it still raises the hackles of the devoted. :)

Priscilla released youki like crazy, so much so that Teresa's sensing was rendered useless. To counter that, she raised her own youki level to get the boost in speed and power needed to combat Priscilla.

Teresa was still fighting a defensive battle at that point but the stakes were different. She didn't want Priscilla to awaken - she wanted Priscilla to live. That's why she fought the way she did even when Priscilla kept on pouring on the juice. Could Teresa could have just boosted to 30% release, knocked Priscilla out and be done with it? Maybe, but she didn't because that wouldn't have proved anything different than what was already known - that Teresa was a monster.

When Priscilla begged Teresa to take her head, Teresa powered down. I repeat, Teresa Powered Down. Remember that she needed to release youki just to keep up with Priscilla's movements.

Why did she power down? Because no one wants to be killed by a monster. Teresa was honoring her 'request' as best she could by killing her as a 'silver-eyed' human rather than a 'yellow-eyed' monster.

As for the 'raw potential' factor, I'd hate to do this but I must pull from DBZ. We can equate Priscilla to our good friend Gohan. Ever since he was, what, 6 years old(?), Gohan was seen as a person with enormous fighting potential. We got glimpses of that potential when he got angry during a battle (as is by his bloodline, that feelings of rage will unlock the SSJ in one who is sufficiently strong enough to make the crossing over). Now his potential wasn't unlocked until he was in his teen years in a battle where HE was the last line in the sand and his back was against the last wall.

As has been pointed out again and again, even by Irene, while Priscilla had the best natural disposition ability-wise to fight Teresa, her lack of actual fighting experience hurt her in a stand-up duel.

Teresa figured out that Priscilla could topple her one day (once she had a few years under her belt) and her instinct was to kill Priscilla right then and there to prevent future complications. How did she know that Priscilla could beat her? The speed and power of her strikes, how much did her block give beneath Teresa's swing - the things that can't be taught in techniques. Priscilla still fought as a new 1st degree black belt - perfect form, perfect stance, the whole nine yards, probably a move or two that she does or favors that she exaggerates due to her being young. What she didn't have was the finesse of experience that says, 'no need to take a picture-perfect stance'. They weren't proving who had the better form, just who was the better fighter. Ken and Ryu from Street Fighter have their form as being Shotokan Karate but when they fight, it is only vaguely similar to any sort of karate at all. This sort of modifcation only comes with experience in fights. This same experience can also tell if it is someone's raw ability that allows them to fight so well or if it's their technique.

irvinethearcher

2009-06-22, 10:04

As has been pointed out again and again, even by Irene, while Priscilla had the best natural disposition ability-wise to fight Teresa, her lack of actual fighting experience hurt her in a stand-up duel.

Please read my previous posts and tell me in which way teresa could have gained significantly more experience than priscilla. She did not make limit breaking experiments she did not fanatically train like the ghosts to become stronger and she had no soul-link training and her enemies were that weak that she could not have gained anything by fighting them. Also, please explain.
If you say emotional experience, okay. But combat experience:eyespin:
As i see it because of her hate against yoma priscilla was the one who probably trained even harder than teresa ever did. But that is only a personal theory and not really important to be true.

You are right priscilla was the mongoose and teresa was the cobra but still teresa had the upper hand. this shows how superior teresa really was fighting an enemy who seemed to be engineered to beat her.

Teresa figured out that Priscilla could topple her one day (once she had a few years under her belt) and her instinct was to kill Priscilla right then and there to prevent future complications. How did she know that Priscilla could beat her? The speed and power of her strikes, how much did her block give beneath Teresa's swing - the things that can't be taught in techniques.

Okay, priscilla was the first opponent who came near teresa's level of speed and strength but in claymore the most important factor is yoki. And teresa seemed to have with 10 - 30% release more yoki than priscilla near 80%. So the simple conclusion is that even with a priscilla who is not a 16 year old teenager but a 25 year old woman she will probably not have three times the yoki so that she is on equal ground with teresa. As long as a claymore develops the way a human teenager develops and does not get all her power between the age of 16 and the 25 what i highly doubt. There are women who break world records in sports like swimming with only 14 years!.
Theresa figured out nothing except that priscilla was strong and fast and more near her level than anyone else she has ever fought. At the moment teresa said this, priscilla was still in her stealth mode. There is no way she could estimated the amount of yoki priscilla possessed by only strenght and speed. After priscilla had released her yoki teresa said something like:
"as things are now you can not beat me".
It is still discussable i know. She could have meant that perhaps someday she will.
Another way to interpret teresa's first comment is that a stealth fighter like priscilla will always be a menace to her because of sneak attacks.

irvinethearcher

2009-06-22, 11:19

If you not put more effort in your arguments i will not discuss this any further with you.

Just because Teresa do not release much youki, that does not mean she have not learned how to utilize her youki. Her not needing to raise youki is actually a sign that she is using her youki far more efficiently then anyone else. That efficiency and knowledge is gained through experience.

She did probably not release more than 30% ever. Those are your own words. WHAT would she have learned what priscilla would not have learned too then? Using yoki more efficiently. Something like this was never directly stated in the manga and she was not half-awakened or something like that. Please don't invent things.

Raw potential is just raw potential. Having it does not make the present Priscilla equal to the future Priscilla. There is no use comparing Priscilla's raw potential to Teresa's already realized potential. Teresa already learned to use her talent, skill through experience, Priscilla has not had the time to equalize that. As I pointed out, when neither uses youki, Teresa was a far better fighter then Priscilla. Did Teresa some how born with that combat skill?

WHAT? In order to find out who was really the more gifted warrior we have to estimate how much teresa gained because she was older and (a bit) more experienced. And i said that it was insignificant. And i backed this up with arguments. I bring arguments and you always answer with: "but teresa was more experienced" I don't intend to discuss with you through 7 pages like gangsta did ... sorry.
Teresa was a better fighter? She was simply spoken faster and stronger that's all. And how would she have become one? Do you think she used fighting skills like fancy movements against rosemary:eyespin: I did not have the intention teresa trained alone in the wilderness using her sword against trees or the air. And for what reason? She was already the strongest by far. She trained the same things as priscilla trained in the org that was it as far as we know.

Both Irene and Teresa's observations conveyed that Priscilla is still inexperienced but with high latent potential. The inexperienced part is implied when you say someone has great potential and may one day be equal or surpass you. The data book analysis points out that Priscilla was an experiment with high potential but was a mistake to send an inexperienced Priscilla to hunt down Teresa.

Yes and so was teresa, still inexperienced because she never fought opponents strong enough so that she could learn something from them. Priscilla was emotionally inexperienced that was what the databook said. The databook did not know about the rosemary fight either. The databook is the knowledge of the org and the org underestimated teresa in every way. Irene said at the end that she "underestimated" teresa. The databook explicitly says that teresa killed rosemary before awakening. This alone was something yagi put in on purpose to show us how wrong the org was about teresa. As we see from the AFs experience has nothing to do with age. Something such trivial should be clear but i mention it to be on the save side.
DATABOOK:
Great Talent
Entrusted with the black letter of the former number 1
Though she didn't have a special intimacy with the former number 1 Rosemaria, she accomplished this mission quickly. This denoted her self-consciousness about being the new number 1.

They are equally trained and yet Teresa owning Priscilla when neither are using youki. The difference here is combat experience that Teresa has but Priscilla lacks.

Again, no arguments from you. You only claim she had comabt experience but don't say how she got it. Combat experience from what? From yoma, from rosemary?
You must be kidding me.

Miria also improved without so called adversaries that give her stimulus. After she half awakened, she still got stronger from the point in slashers arc where she has a tough time against the AB to Pieta where she was killing male AB her group assigned to with ease. You do not NEED to fight someone who is equal to you in order to improve and gain experience.

WHAT????? Miria half-awakened, teresa not. Miria fought against the six armed and was tortured by him. She had to go all out in this fight using her phantom over 30 times. She was sent on suicide missions by the org and then the pieta battle. If that was not a high stimulus than what else? You are right. You do not NEED someone to fight who is equal in order to improve but you need someone who is at least an adversary and not a victim like rosemary.

You did not correlate the examples I raised to counter that experience can be raised without requiring to fight opponents that is equal in power to you - that Clare was able to improve despite fighting regular yomas, that Clare was able improve simply by practicing, that all claymores are improving themselves to become stronger. You also didn't present any case to show that Claymores master their techniques without experience.

Sorry but claire always had adversaries who gave her the right stimulus. The yoma in rabona nearly killed her. And the BIGGEST MISTAKE IN YOUR ARGUMENTATION IS that you talk about how much a claymore can improve(and they can improve a lot). But the question is WHAT DID TERESA UNTIL THE FIGHT AGAINST PRISCILLA IN ORDER TO IMPROVE after she left the org to become a clamore?
And i explained that she did not train, she did not fight against worthy opponents. She slaughtered rosemary as she was fresh from academy and still a child like rosemary said herself.

camilla

2009-06-22, 12:29

After reading your comment i had a very sad idea. Could it be that despite all the power theresa possesed and despite being unbeatable she felt helpless and powerless somehow?
Her faint smile and her sad eyes. Came those really only from the betrayal of her family in her childhood?
1.)If we assume rosemary was AO and teresa believed in the actions of the org like perhaps dietrich, she could have simply walked first to the north slaughtered isle than south slaughtered luciella and at the end disposed of riful in the west. After that she could have glanced the island from yoma and ABs. Or fought against all three together with 50% yoki release.
So she must have known that the org was evil or at least not good, therefore she hid her power.
2.) But why did she not simply wiped out the org? This is far more interesting than 1.)

It must have been a really frustrating state of being strong enough to beat everything on the island but despite that to can not change anything for what ever reason. Perhaps this state was the second and the far greater reason for her sadness. Perhaps she assumed something but was not sure about it, so she did only her job but nothing more. This would be the easiest explanation.

Nah .. it is common knowledge that clare is still weak compared to teresa. I don't admire clare for her strength physical strength, i simply like her because of her pure character:)

I firmly believe Rosemary was an AO. Technically, not a de facto AO because the Organization never saw her awakening and never mentioned her in its annals as such. Orsay did stress to Teresa the importance to hurry in order to prevent it because she was the former number one and knowing how things went is enough for me to consider her an AO.

The Extra Scene 1 indicates the deep aversion Teresa had against ABs/AOs, therefore an agreement with Isley, Riful and Luciela to fight the Org together was out of the question. And so not Yagi style. Whatever bothered and saddened her was something extraneous to AOs, ABs and yomas ‘cause she could have easily taken care of all of them.

I have no idea if Teresa believed in the actions of the Org. Remember that she told Priscilla the world wasn't all black and white – and I’m wondering if there was something else behind these words, indicating she could have initially supported the Org and later came to realize it wasn't good or that not all of their missions/actions were.

The real, scaring questions remain why she didn't go against the Organization and why did she hide her power.

Good to know there's still a place for me in the fan club. :)

Teresa figured out that Priscilla could topple her one day (once she had a few years under her belt) and her instinct was to kill Priscilla right then and there to prevent future complications.

You’re raising a good point here. Teresa knew that Priscilla’s latent power would have increased skyrocketly with time and experience and was pondering whether she could be in a position to defeat her again in the future. Can we, among her thoughts, read that Teresa’s evaluation of Priscilla during their battle had a completely different meaning like say, she finally had found someone strong enough, a possible strong candidate, who could have helped her to rebel? Did Teresa had a plan? Did she find someone who could help her in Priscilla? Did she envision a battle amongst titans?

This would add another revenge to the manga. Typing this makes my knees tremble. Who knows what Teresa hid so well behind those sad eyes and faint smile of hers.

SagaraSouske

2009-06-22, 12:53

If you not put more effort in your arguments i will not discuss this any further with you.

I put plenty of effort as well as examples into my arguments. You just choose to ignore them and saying things like I believe this is the case etc.

She did probably not release more than 30% ever. Those are your own words. WHAT would she have learned what priscilla would not have learned too then? Using yoki more efficiently. Something like this was never directly stated in the manga and she was not half-awakened or something like that. Please don't invent things.

Once again, you are taking only a part of the experience argument and making it the whole piece. Raising youki level is only one part of experience. Just because she never had a need to does not mean she knows precisely what she needs to raise to in order to defeat her opponent - which is an indication she has great experience on knowing what her limit is, unlike Priscilla. Everyone but Priscilla knew when she cross the 80% limit - that is an indication that everyone has better knowledge and experience on raising youki.

Here are what she could have learned that Priscilla haven't. I will list them so that is easy to read even though I already said them before:
1. She has far better combat experience without resorting to youki then Priscilla - that's experience learned by going through many battles. As Ritful would have said, Teresa would have very little wasted movements.
2. She learned to read youki superbly. Very few has the capability of reading youki like her or those that do don't have it at her level. This is experience learned from constantly using it and practicing it - same way Clare improved her youki reading.
3. She has learned precisely how much power is within her such that she knows exactly how much release is needed to defeat her opponent. Her youki reading skill was definite a help in determining that.
4. She has seen a variety of different Claymore combat style and techniques and is able to deal with them with the help of youki reading.

WHAT? In order to find out who was really the more gifted warrior we have to estimate how much teresa gained because she was older and (a bit) more experienced. And i said that it was insignificant. And i backed this up with arguments. I bring arguments and you always answer with: "but teresa was more experienced" I don't intend to discuss with you through 7 pages like gangsta did ... sorry.
Teresa was a better fighter? She was simply spoken faster and stronger that's all. And how would she have become one? Do you think she used fighting skills like fancy movements against rosemary:eyespin: I did not have the intention teresa trained alone in the wilderness using her sword against trees or the air. And for what reason? She was already the strongest by far. She trained the same things as priscilla trained in the org that was it as far as we know.

It's not a question of who is more gifted. Someone is gifted doesn't mean she is able to achieve all her talent without time to improve, practice and gain experience. We saw how young Teresa was in the Rafaela flash better. Do you honestly believe Teresa is only "a bit" older then Priscilla, especially since it will take some time for her nick name to get around.

I provided plenty of reasons and examples why she is more experienced. You just choose to ignore them. All you have given me is that the only way anyone can gain experience is through fighting equal opponents. That's an assumption that you created. It's not a fact. I provided you with examples where claymores do gain experience without the need of fighting equal opponents. You either brush it aside or claim the examples are not valid without provide a good counter reason.

Yes and so was teresa, still inexperienced because she never fought opponents strong enough so that she could learn something from them. Priscilla was emotionally inexperienced that was what the databook said. The databook did not know about the rosemary fight either. The databook is the knowledge of the org and the org underestimated teresa in every way. Irene said at the end that she "underestimated" teresa. The databook explicitly says that teresa killed rosemary before awakening. This alone was something yagi put in on purpose to show us how wrong the org was about teresa. As we see from the AFs experience has nothing to do with age. Something such trivial should be clear but i mention it to be on the save side.
DATABOOK:
Great Talent
Entrusted with the black letter of the former number 1
Though she didn't have a special intimacy with the former number 1 Rosemaria, she accomplished this mission quickly. This denoted her self-consciousness about being the new number 1.

Databook did not say anything about Priscilla's emotion. They said she was inexperienced in general. I never raised examples of Teresa in the data book, only Priscilla. So the "Data book evaluation of Teresa in Org's view" statement does not correlate to my posts.

Again, no arguments from you. You only claim she had comabt experience but don't say how she got it. Combat experience from what? From yoma, from rosemary?
You must be kidding me.

I am not kidding you. You just won't see that experience can be gained in many ways and not limited to fighting equal opponents. That's a presumption that you believe in and you refuse to see from other view points.

WHAT????? Miria half-awakened, teresa not. Miria fought against the six armed and was tortured by him. She had to go all out in this fight using her phantom over 30 times. She was sent on suicide missions by the org and then the pieta battle. If that was not a high stimulus than what else? You are right. You do not NEED someone to fight who is equal in order to improve but you need someone who is at least an adversary and not a victim like rosemary.

Did you even read what I said? The example that I used occurred after she awakened in both cases. What does half-awaken have anything to do with gaining experience? I am not comparing something that is before her half-awakening and something after. Miria fought and defeated the male AB with Clare. She gained some experience from that fight sure. But she was even more powerful when she was in Pieta - from experience gained between the 6 arm AB and the time when she reached Pieta. Are you saying she kept on fighting equal opponents all this time?

Ok so you are now admitting that you don't need to fight equal opponents to gain experience but rather someone who is at least an adversary. Who defines whether or not the opponent is an adversary? Claymores do get stronger. May be when the first start out certain things are adversary to them but not after they get a lot stronger? You are making the definition of "adversary" here assuming Rosemary is not an adversary to Teresa because you "supposed" power level of Teresa is so high. I came from a view point where Teresa is not a goddess and Rosemary despite not being an AO is an adversary. I mean if she forced Teresa to raise youki level and injured her, that should be an indication that she is an adversary.

Then we have Clare simply practice youki reading in any fight, regardless if easy or hard opponents. Who is to say other claymores or Teresa do not improve this way? When Clare was taught Quicksword, she practiced and improved the technique without fighting, who is to say when other claymores develop their own technique, they don't practice to improve them, even on small fries?

Sorry but claire always had adversaries who gave her the right stimulus. The yoma in rabona nearly killed her. And the BIGGEST MISTAKE IN YOUR ARGUMENTATION IS that you talk about how much a claymore can improve(and they can improve a lot). But the question is WHAT DID TERESA UNTIL THE FIGHT AGAINST PRISCILLA IN ORDER TO IMPROVE after she left the org to become a clamore?
And i explained that she did not train, she did not fight against worthy opponents. She slaughtered rosemary as she was fresh from academy and still a child like rosemary said herself.

Clare didn't fight adversaries by you definition after the Slasher Arc when she was cleaning multiple yoma with ease and improving her youki reading. She also wasn't fighting at all when she practiced Quicksword to master it. She also wasn't fighting when she first learned youki manipulation from Galatea and used it to save Jean. Fighting equal are better opponents are what made her grow fast, but equally importantly is her persistence in practicing and learning what she gained.

I listed how Teresa has improved in experience on top of this post. It's recap of what I posted before. So the question of "WHAT DID TERESA DO UNTIL THE FIGHT AGAINST PRISCILLA IN ORDER TO IMPROVE" is not a "BIGGEST MISTAKE IN MY ARGUMENTATION" but rather a question with my answers that you either didn't read carefully or ignored.

irvinethearcher

2009-06-22, 13:32

I will only answer to what i hate the most on your twisted way to argue with me.
The more i will answer the less other people would read this and so i would not gain anything
because it seems that arguing with you is impossible.

Again it is out of question that claymores can improve a lot. Important is the effort teresa put into this improvment after she left the org. And i say she had no reason to train anything at all and she was not that powerhungry type of character. Therefore there is a high probability that teresa was not SIGNIFICANTLY more experienced than priscilla. Your own words were that she probably never released more than 30% yoki.

Clare didn't fight adversaries by you definition after the Slasher Arc when she was cleaning multiple yoma with ease and improving her youki reading. She also wasn't fighting at all when she practiced Quicksword to master it. She also wasn't fighting when she first learned youki manipulation from Galatea and used it to save Jean. Fighting equal are better opponents are what made her grow fast, but equally importantly is her persistence in practicing and learning what she gained.

I listed how Teresa has improved in experience on top of this post. It's recap of what I posted before. So the question of "WHAT DID TERESA DO UNTIL THE FIGHT AGAINST PRISCILLA IN ORDER TO IMPROVE" is not a "BIGGEST MISTAKE IN MY ARGUMENTATION" but rather a question with my answers that you either didn't read carefully or ignored.

You can't be serious about this. Clare had half awakening theresa's dream, the fight against the six armed AB before the slashers arc...
She got instructions from irene and she was fighting against irene who gave her the right stimulus.
Teresa did not train or learn anything after she was a trainee of the org, i'm sure of it.(Preemptive aura protection does not count ->)
And with "anything" i will say(normally trivial but here it comes especially for you) anything which would have brought her a real advantage in the fight against priscilla.

2. She learned to read youki superbly. Very few has the capability of reading youki like her or those that do don't have it at her level. This is experience learned from constantly using it and practicing it - same way Clare improved her youki reading.

You can't be serious using the preemptive aura protection to back your flawed argumentation up.
Priscilla was stealthed at the beginning and at the end tersa could not sense her yoki to the minuscule detail because she released to much of it.

This skill was totally useless in this fight and you dare to use it to back you up? I can't believe this! I hope someone will read this except you.

The whole arc strongly indicates that teresa simply was not the type to train fanatically her skills like the ghosts did. She had no one who showed her anything(perhaps rafaella) as far as we know. She was simply a natural prodigy. When she fought rosemary rosemary said that she was still a child probably not even older than priscilla. Do you really think teresa against rosemary was that much weaker than teresa against priscilla?
Ah another thing. Teresa had no superior combat experience. She owned priscilla because she was speeding up which means she simply moved faster. NO TECHNIQUE only moving faster please reread this part.

SagaraSouske

2009-06-22, 15:34

I will only answer to what i hate the most on your twisted way to argue with me. The more i will answer the less other people would read this and so i would not gain anything because it seems that arguing with you is impossible.

In what ways my argument is twisted? I have given plenty of examples and reasoning for any points I am trying to make. I try to answer and counter every point you brought up that I disagree and back it up with why I disagree and use cases from the manga to show how I came to that disagreement. Just because you won’t see anything from my viewpoint and continuously repeat your one side argument based solely on your own assumption doesn’t make my argument twisted.

Again it is out of question that claymores can improve a lot. Important is the effort teresa put into this improvment after she left the org. And i say she had no reason to train anything at all and she was not that powerhungry type of character. Therefore there is a high probability that teresa was not SIGNIFICANTLY more experienced than priscilla. Your own words were that she probably never released more than 30% yoki.

How is out of question that claymores can improve a lot? Ritful even said in two different cases that she wanted the claymores she is after to get stronger so she can awaken them into a stronger AB. We see Miria increase in rank and we see how much an improvement all the 7 Ghost gets after seven year of hiding and training. It is my own words that she prob never release more then 30% youki. However, what came after that? What about my reasoning that never release above 30% can still be indication of experience in that department?

As for Teresa’s improve after she left the Org, of course there is very little since it wasn’t long since she left the Org. She however has been around for quite a while. I already pointed out how young Teresa was in the Rafaela flashback among other reasons. How can you base Teresa’s experience on the time she left the Org and ignore the far longer time since she first became a claymore?

Didn’t I say raising above 30% youki is only one part of experience. Why do you keep on insisting that to be the most important factor at determine Teresa’s experience? I also provided reasoning for why she still has more experience in this area then Priscilla. Why don’t you address those reasoning and raise a counter point?

You can't be serious about this. Clare had half awakening theresa's dream, the fight against the six armed AB before the slashers arc... She got instructions from irene and she was fighting against irene who gave her the right stimulus. Teresa did not train or learn anything after she was a trainee of the org, i'm sure of it.

Half awakening, fight against 6-arm AB etc all contributed to her experience. I never denied that, although I am not sure I agree with Teresa’s dream part. That doesn’t preclude her gaining experience through the examples I mentioned.

Irene teaching her Quicksword is equal to her fighting Irene? You cannot distinguish the difference between training under a teacher and seriously fighting?

You are so sure that Teresa did not train or learn anything after she became a claymore? How? Where did you get the information that makes you so sure besides your personal conviction that is so? I listed the areas how Teresa could have trained and how it showed that she has trained. Why don’t you pick those apart and demonstrate to me that she has not learned anything since she became a claymore. While you at it, show me that other claymores do not learn anything but gain all their skills, techniques, abilities and experiences as soon as they become a claymore from a trainee.

You can't be serious using the preemptive aura protection to back your flawed argumentation up. Priscilla was stealthed at the beginning and at the end tersa could not sense her yoki to the minuscule detail because she released to much of it.

This skill was totally useless in this fight and you dare to use it to back you up? I can't believe this! I hope someone will read this except you.

First, Teresa’s youki reading is not totally useless. Teresa merely said it was difficult to read Priscilla precisely because her youki was massive. She was facing Priscilla and walking up to her. Even if Priscilla’s youki do not allow her to get a precise reading, she would at least sense Priscilla is using youki for an attack. Do you think she will not attempt to dodge if she sense an attack is coming even if she doesn’t know precisely where the swing will land?

I already pointed out that dodge and defense requires less speed and power then the attacker. If Teresa was so much more powerful then even the AB Priscilla. How can she not dodge a surprise attack from 80% claymore Priscilla? (I think she already awakened but I don’t believe you think she did.)

How about take some time to think through this logic before you say it is flawed. When you make certain assumptions, those assumption dictates what you think how the argument carried out. You need to understand that others may have a different perspective and are arguing under premises that are different from yours. While certain things do not make sense based on you premise, it might be perfectly understandable coming from another viewpoint.

The whole arc strongly indicates that teresa simply was not the type to train fanatically her skills like the ghosts did. She had no one who showed her anything(perhaps rafaella) as far as we know. She was simply a natural prodigy. When she fought rosemary rosemary said that she was still a child probably not even older than priscilla. Do you really think teresa against rosemary was that much weaker than teresa against priscilla? Ah another thing. Teresa had no superior combat experience. She owned priscilla because she was speeding up which means she simply moved faster. NO TECHNIQUE only moving faster please reread this part.

I never said Teresa trained fanatically like 7 Ghosts. She may or may not have anyone to show her anything in the capacity as a teacher. She could have plenty of chances to observe others. There is no doubt she is a prodigy. But a prodigy can also gain skill and experience and become stronger.

As for how much weaker Teresa is when she fought Rosemary compare to when she fought Priscilla; we don’t know how much time passed in between. But I can definite see some improvement in the Teresa from Priscilla fight. She is far calmer and do not have the cocky attitude she had against Rosemary – which sometimes hinders your perception. Her injury sustained against Rosemary could have been avoided if she released earlier since she can defeat her with first release. The older Teresa didn’t wait as long before releasing and she doesn’t bother to show off like the earlier Teresa did by using her hands to crush a piece of Rosemary – which showed her to be more seasoned and less reckless.

When she won against Priscilla, she won precisely because of superior combat experience. Even with 10% release, she was still on the defensive while Priscilla was basically just using brute strength, raw speed and massive youki – lacking any type of actual combat skill. If Teresa wasn’t having difficulty of reading Priscilla’s movement with precision, she doesn’t even need to release. It’s far easier to defend and counter when someone is basically widely swinging and over reaching themselves. Youki reading is still being employed, just to a lesser extend. While no other technique specifically is being used, it’s her general combat skill that of a master swordsman (a corny example I know) that allowed her to overcome brute strength, speed and youki. Unlike the Rosemary fight, I don’t think Teresa can use her hand to catch Priscilla’s limbs and crush it. Even with 10% release she is still less powerful in terms of raw power compare to Priscilla. Her combat experience is what gave her the edge and won against Priscilla. Had Priscilla gained some experience, she would have forced Teresa to raise youki level even higher to even the difference between speed and power with less of an advantage her skill can provide her.

irvinethearcher

2009-06-22, 15:51

Shiek927

2009-06-22, 15:55

SagaraSouske

2009-06-22, 16:14

"Out of question" was my mistake. What i wanted to say is that it is totally clear that claymores can improve a lot. But teresa did not train like the ghosts, did not make soul link, she did not half-awaken. She only fought yoma, ABs and rosemary which were no match for her.

And please try to make your posts shorter. When i have to write that much i make mistakes like "out of question". "to be beyond all question" is what i wanted to say. But perhaps this is something you want to achieve. You win because you write your adversary down with long posts. No one can read this excapt me and so it goes on and on. I wont play this game.

I can't write short posts if I want to address every point of contention and provide examples and reasoning. Otherwise I will just be saying this is so without anything to back it up.

Yes, Teresa did not train like the ghosts, didn't half-awaken, didn't get the physical training for Alica and Beth. Most claymores do not go through those either. Teresa, like most other claymores, did fight yoma and ABs, and like most other claymore improved and gain experience the normal way. Even if nothing was a true match for her, she still learned to fight better with her sword, learned how you use youki better, improved youki reading ability, learned to not lose her cool in a fight with pressure, learned to use less force and speed to defend against greater power and speed, observed other claymore's abilities and devise defense against those and similar techniques, etc. While none of these process are showed in detail, it is clearly demonstrated in the Teresa vs Irene and Co + Priscilla fight that she is far more experienced then most claymores, not just Priscilla. She can defend against Quicksword despite lacking such technique and swing speed, she can deal with both faster and stronger opponents, and she can defeat Priscilla without the help of youki reading when both are fighting on equal terms.

irvinethearcher

2009-06-22, 16:23

Roflmao; you two are funny :heh:

All debates become like that irvine, you can't expect posts to remain short.

I can expect that posts will stay readable for me and for others. I am not an native speaker so i need probably three times the time to write it than an native speaker does.

"Out of question" was my mistake. What i wanted to say is that it is totally clear that claymores can improve a lot. But teresa did not train like the ghosts, did not make soul link, she did not half-awaken. She only fought yoma, ABs and rosemary which were no match for her.

And please try to make your posts shorter. When i have to write that much i make mistakes like "out of question". "to be beyond all question" is what i wanted to say. But perhaps this is something you want to achieve. You win because you write your adversary down with long posts. No one can read this except me and so it goes on and on. I wont play this game.
And please:
That teresa had more experience than priscilla is beyond all question BUT does this experience count during their fight? Please answer honestly. What could she have gained fighting yomas and rosemary? Nearly nothing i think.

Combat experience? Like simply moving faster? Prsicilla said she slowed down but it was teresa who became faster. You don't even know which yoki was larger. There is more than the possibility that teresa's yoki surpassed priscilla's with only 10%. Never came to your thought?

It’s far easier to defend and counter when someone is basically widely swinging and over reaching themselves. Youki reading is still being employed, just to a lesser extend.
It was clearly stated that she could not use yoki reading anymore. It was a totally useless technique to her. That you don't admit this is embarrassing i think.
I could argue that priscilla was far more unpredictable and dangerous at the moment she run wild and lost her head. When she scratched teresa on her head i think this was clear.
So please explain where her "combat experience" should have come from:

Soul link -> Excluded!
Training like the ghosts -> Unrealistic!
Half-awakening -> When and against whom?
Yoki release -> Never more than probably at most 30%
Efficient yoki usage -> Does not exist, riful was referring to efficient use of techniques
Fighting against strong opponents -> Rosemary wasn't someone where she learned much from to use it against priscilla.
Observing others -> Irene's technique was inferior to her so she was even without yoki sensing faster than irene's arm and even if not what does it count? Do you really think that she would not be able to block irene's sword like raf blocked clare's yokiles windcutter? What gain would she have from observing such a technique in the fight against Priscilla? Priscilla used no techniques. Ophelia's rippling sword? Far to weak to gain something usefull from fighting it.

Now you can list your points like i did so that it is readable for me and for others, please.

Irene teaching her Quicksword is equal to her fighting Irene? You cannot distinguish the difference between training under a teacher and seriously fighting?
Nitpicking!!! I hate nitpicking! You know what i want to say. You are not stupid but you use it to make your post larger so that no one can read it anymore. Irene trained her. For training you NEED the right stimulus. If the stimulus is to weak you have no effect, if it is to strong you get injured or perhaps even killed.

Yes, Teresa did not train like the ghosts, didn't half-awaken, didn't get the physical training for Alica and Beth. Most claymores do not go through those either. Teresa, like most other claymores, did fight yoma and ABs, and like most other claymore improved and gain experience the normal way. Even if nothing was a true match for her, she still learned to fight better with her sword, learned how you use youki better, improved youki reading ability, learned to not lose her cool in a fight with pressure, learned to use less force and speed to defend against greater power and speed, observed other claymore's abilities and devise defense against those and similar techniques, etc. While none of these process are showed in detail, it is clearly demonstrated in the Teresa vs Irene and Co + Priscilla fight that she is far more experienced then most claymores, not just Priscilla. She can defend against Quicksword despite lacking such technique and swing speed, she can deal with both faster and stronger opponents, and she can defeat Priscilla without the help of youki reading when both are fighting on equal terms.

And you do think that priscilla did not learn such things during her training in the org? No, the fight shows that teresa is far more stronger and faster than the others. There is no indication that she is more skilled or something like that. She simply began to move faster than priscilla and she was done for.
Do you think that irene's quicksword would be enough to beat priscilla who does not have mastered the preemptive aura detection?
If not how could it beat teresa who was even stronger against stealthy priscilla? What i wanted to say is that teresa did not need her sensing to beat the others. It was some fancy achievement she trained only because she was bored or to use it to deceive the org. You say she learned how to use yoki better - she did not release yoki most of the time. You can't be serious.
Efficient yoki usage - there IS NO SUCH THING STATED IN THE ENTIRE MANGA. Only efficient usage of techniques.
All those things you spoke about theresa would have learned are peanuts and you know that everything she had learned priscilla hadlearned too even if she had less time for it, it makes not such a huge difference. I think you know how a learning curve works. The most you learn when you are a rookie. You talk about basic skills here which should have made teresa the superior fighter. Those skills were at priscilla's disposal too and she wasn't much inferior to teresa in it.

SagaraSouske

2009-06-22, 17:37

I can expect that posts will stay readable for me and for others. I am not an native speaker so i need probably three times the time to write it than an native speaker does.

I will attempt to shorten my post.

"Out of question" was my mistake. What i wanted to say is that it is totally clear that claymores can improve a lot. But teresa did not train like the ghosts, did not make soul link, she did not half-awaken. She only fought yoma, ABs and rosemary which were no match for her.

Sure, point taken.

And please try to make your posts shorter. When i have to write that much i make mistakes like "out of question". "to be beyond all question" is what i wanted to say. But perhaps this is something you want to achieve. You win because you write your adversary down with long posts. No one can read this except me and so it goes on and on. I wont play this game.

I will try to make it as short as possible, but not at the expense of not explaining my points. If I do that, you can say I don’t provide reasoning for my argument instead of saying my post is long.

And please: That teresa had more experience than priscilla is beyond all question BUT does this experience count during their fight? Please answer honestly. What could she have gained fighting yomas and rosemary? Nearly nothing i think.

This experience does count toward that fight (Note I am repeating this again) - Teresa fighting Priscilla without youki and owning her.

It is hard to quantify exactly how much or what she gained. But there is a difference between Teresa when fighting Rosemary and Teresa fighting Priscilla. Please go to my previous post for that info since I don’t want to make this post longer.

Combat experience? Like simply moving faster? Prsicilla said she slowed down but it was teresa who became faster. You don't even know which yoki was larger. There is more than the possibility that teresa's yoki surpassed priscilla's with only 10%. Never came to your thought?

Combat experience as in removing unnecessary movements, knowing how to defend against different fighting styles, know to how to take advantages of opponent overreaching and do not overreach yourself, etc.

The possibility exists because Irene’s reaction can go either way. I am in the camp that Priscilla was the more massive youki. You obviously assume the other way. But raw power or youki amount do not determine the fight – combat skill can offset that difference, as shown in Slasher Arc, Clare/Galatea’s fight against Dauf, Pieta as well as Agatha fight.

It was clearly stated that she could not use yoki reading anymore. It was a totally useless technique to her. That you don't admit this is embarrassing i think.

What Teresa thought was: “Zenshin kara taryo no youki ga hotobashite komakana nagare na domaru de mienai.”

That translates into: “Massive amounts of youki exuberates from (her) entire body that I can hardly sense any detailed reading of (her) youki flow within that mix.”

Teresa is unable to precisely sense Priscilla’s youki flow. It’s that she cannot sense it at all. Youki reading is just became less effective, not useless.

I could argue that priscilla was far more unpredictable and dangerous at the moment she run wild and lost her head. When she scratched teresa on her head i think this was clear. So please explain where her "combat experience" should have come from:
Soul link -> Excluded!
Training like the ghosts -> Unrealistic!
Half-awakening -> When and against whom?
Yoki release -> Never more than probably at most 30%
Efficient yoki usage -> Does not exist, riful was referring to efficient use of techniques
Fighting against strong opponents -> Rosemary wasn't someone where she learned much from to use it against priscilla.
Observing others -> Irene's technique was inferior to her so she was even without yoki sensing faster than irene's arm and even if not what does it count? Do you really think that she would not be able to block irene's sword like raf blocked clare's yokiles windcutter?

What gain would she have from observing such a technique in the fight against Priscilla? Priscilla used no techniques. Ophelia's rippling sword? Far to weak to gain something usefull from fighting it. Now you can list your points like i did so that it is readable for me and for others, please.

Yoki Release never more then 30% -> see my earlier posts.
Efficient youki usage –? it’s a deduction. Sure it is not said out loud in manga.
Fighting against strong opponents –> see my earlier posts.
Observing others –> same techniques can be stronger or weaker depending on the user. There is always a lot to be gained from observing other techniques, if only to learn the youki control behind it and how to counter it. Yes, I do not believe Teresa can defend against Quicksword without youki reading.

Different experiences are interconnected with each other. They provide an overall improvement in combat prowess. Even if Priscilla do not use any techniques, observing techniques can help learn to improve your form, better utilization of youki – efficiency, generalize and take traits from different techniques and incorporate into your fighting style. You can do quick slashes based on Quicksword with brief spike of youki usage, you can have a speed burst similar to Phantom but not as powerful or fast but requires less or no youki usage, I will keep this short to not list anymore examples.

Nitpicking!!! I hate nitpicking! You know what i want to say. You are not stupid but you use it to make your post larger so that no one can read it anymore. Irene trained her. For training you NEED the right stimulus. If the stimulus is to weak you have no effect, if it is to strong you get injured or perhaps even killed.

This is not nitpicking. Sparring is not the same as real combat, especially your sparring partner is your teacher. Irene will make sure Clare does not get heavily injured and will correct any mistakes and tell her where she needs to improve. You don’t get that chance in a real fight. This insistence on needing the right stimulus is only your philosophy. Don’t religiously apply to everything.

And you do think that priscilla did not learn such things during her training in the org? No, the fight shows that teresa is far more stronger and faster than the others. There is no indication that she is more skilled or something like that. She simply began to move faster than priscilla and she was done for. Do you think that irene's quicksword would be enough to beat priscilla who does not mastered the preemptive aura detection? If not how could it beat teresa who was even stronger against stealthy priscilla? What i wanted to say is that teresa did not need her sensing to beat the others. It was some fancy achievement she trained only because she was bored or to use it to deceive the org. You say she learned how to use yoki better - she did not release yoki most of the time. You can't be serious.

No, I don’t think Priscilla learned much. Sure she learned how to use a sword and knows the basic on how to raise youki. That’s about it. All claymore trainees are given no training on how to control their youki or any advanced techniques. The extra chapter that showed their graduation exam is there to demonstrate to you that how little the Org care about the survival of Claymore trainees.

The fight showed Teresa is neither faster nor stronger. She was always on the defensive. Those defending require far less power and speed then the attacker. There is very indication that she is more skilled because despite the initial surprise, Priscilla doesn’t know how to fight well and soon Teresa’s experience over came any lack of youki reading. You are saying Teresa do not need youki reading to beat others is because you are presuming that she is already faster and stronger. I, on the other hand, think Teresa is not faster or stronger but is a better fighter that uses youki sensing to her greatest advantage.

Efficient yoki usage - there IS NO SUCH THING STATED IN THE ENTIRE MANGA. Only efficient usage of techniques.

Manga stated efficient use of movements – which can be applied to techniques as well. That implies there can be efficient use of youki as well. Why wouldn’t there be as both techniques and youki usage are central to how claymore and AB fights? For example, Galatea’s higher youki release factor can be attributed to a more efficient use of her youki, which is understandable because an advanced youki senser with the ability to manipulate youki will have very good youki control – and that was proven when she was able to raise her youki to a hair below awakening limit.

irvinethearcher

2009-06-22, 18:25

To bring this to an end.
We agree now that teresa had not learned something exotic.
We agree that teresa had more experience in base skills.
We agree that teresa could perhaps learned something from rafaella.

We disagree that this experience coming only from refining base skills due combating yoma, ABs and rosemary was enough to pawn priscilla like teresa did. (I say no, you say yes)

We disagree on the efficient usage of yoki which was never mentioned in the manga before.
(You say yes, i say it does not exist or if it is not important for this fight) Techniques can be more efficient but yoki can perhaps only used more efficient if you release it often or train hard physically like the ghosts. We know that teresa not did this. She did with a high probability not train very often and did not release yoki often( at least the latter is a fact).
Okay galatea said this with the factor but this is not something which can be trained without releasing yoki. But teresa did not release yoki often - no effect in training. Therefore i found this argument really weird and did not even consider galatea's statement.

I don't want to discuss this any further because now we are at the point where we would have to discuss things like "could teresa surpassed irene's quicksword without her sensing" or
"was teresa's yoki 10% released higher than priscilla's at 80%?".
Links:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=2043142&postcount=570

I go with gooral here at most of his points. I think that priscilla could have killed teresa in a sneak attack at the beginning.

IMO the only way priscilla could have somehow closed the gap between teresa is through simply becoming older and maturing into a woman from a 15 - 16 year old teen.

SagaraSouske

2009-06-22, 18:37

Although some of the points that you say we agree or disagree may not be entirely correct from my point of view, I will discontinue this discussion with you specifically as you requested.

I also agree Priscilla could have killed Teresa or at least heavily injure her if she went through with the very first sneak attack because Teresa had no idea that was coming at all and her 'danger sense' so to speak didn't alarm her.

clarakiss~

2009-06-23, 06:27

yes, i too agree, if priscilla had stuck with the plan she would've killed teresa. but in the end, it was probably a good thing priscilla killed teresa cuz if teresa had awakened, no one on earth would've stopped her. not even if all the abyssals had allied together - it still wouldn't have been enough.

Shiek927

2009-06-23, 14:21

Tempest35

2009-06-26, 20:06

Please read my previous posts and tell me in which way teresa could have gained significantly more experience than priscilla. She did not make limit breaking experiments she did not fanatically train like the ghosts to become stronger and she had no soul-link training and her enemies were that weak that she could not have gained anything by fighting them. Also, please explain.
If you say emotional experience, okay. But combat experience:eyespin:
As i see it because of her hate against yoma priscilla was the one who probably trained even harder than teresa ever did. But that is only a personal theory and not really important to be true.

Hnn, Okay, I'll try to explain what I meant back then.

Yes, Teresa and Priscilla recieved the same type of training - nothing was inherently different about it. It's the same as going through Basic Combat Training in the Army. The difference of experience that I am referring to is actual 'in the field' experience - actual combat outside a 'controlled environment'. Teresa's been in the field for years - Priscilla was only out in the field for two months before she was promoted to #2. She might have had the strength, she might have had the skill - but she did not have the field experience to be an effective warrior given her position. The ORG still gave command of the team to Irene instead of Priscilla for obvious reasons. Irene knew Teresa well enough, she had the field experience and the tactical ability to make a plan that could bring her down. It was Priscilla's inexperience/immaturity that made the plan fail in the first place before she fought Teresa one-on-one.

irvinethearcher

2009-06-27, 10:44

Hnn, Okay, I'll try to explain what I meant back then.

Yes, Teresa and Priscilla recieved the same type of training - nothing was inherently different about it. It's the same as going through Basic Combat Training in the Army. The difference of experience that I am referring to is actual 'in the field' experience - actual combat outside a 'controlled environment'. Teresa's been in the field for years - Priscilla was only out in the field for two months before she was promoted to #2. She might have had the strength, she might have had the skill - but she did not have the field experience to be an effective warrior given her position. The ORG still gave command of the team to Irene instead of Priscilla for obvious reasons. Irene knew Teresa well enough, she had the field experience and the tactical ability to make a plan that could bring her down. It was Priscilla's inexperience/immaturity that made the plan fail in the first place before she fought Teresa one-on-one.

Agreed, but i was referring only to experience which could help priscilla to beat teresa in a one on one fight. Priscilla was only a teenager and teresa was a woman. There was still the IMO high probable possibility that priscilla gains more speed and strength and yoki when she becomes a woman without doing anything teresa did not do like soul-link, half - awakening, rocky-balboa training...

SagaraSouske

2009-06-27, 12:41

Interesting, what tempest said is half of what I said on Teresa's experience and yet you disagree with me but agree with him.

Yes I agree that Priscilla will gain more speed, strength and youki if she stayed a claymore - not because she is not a women, but because her potential is still there to be full filled.

irvinethearcher

2009-06-27, 15:26

SagaraSouske

2009-06-27, 17:55

In the first half but in the second you said that teresa was better in

-"efficient yoki usage"
(there is no such thing mentioned in the entire manga; you called galatea's high yoki release factor as an example. The problem here is that theresa as good as never released her yoki so she could not train this factor)
-preemptive aura detection
this technique proved as unreliable in the fight against priscilla. If not teresa's beheading was proof enough for that unreliability what then?
-swordsplay and combat experience
(because of the yoma she fought and the abs. That even the far weaker and
"obsessed with becoming stronger and kill priscilla" ophelia thought that fighting yoma was a waste of time was nothing what concerned you. And by the way in your own discussionstyle(sofia could perhaps twist rosemary's arm of too because they have never fought each other) where is the proof that teresa ever fought against an AB except rosemary:heh:)
-wasted movements
To be fair, i have even found something to back your argument up. This is normally your task.
Look at "endless gravestones chapter 5; 04 OM". Ophelia said something about wasted movements. But i don't understand the translation entirely.
-gaining experience by observing techniques from others
But priscilla did not use any technique at all only base skills at high speed. So this experience teresa gained was useless too.

-efficient youki usage is a deduction from efficient use of movements of techniques. It's one way to explain why Teresa do not need to raise youki that often. But if you don't believe in that that is fine.
-What tempest said includes swordplay and combat experience, they are part of greater field experience
-Youki reading is a separate argument all together and was focused on whether Teresa should get surperised or not. The only part it relates to experience is Teresa improved it over the years.
-learning from other's techniques made a difference against Irene and in general the more types of different fighting style and technique Teresa sees, the more likely she can deal with similar techniques and such, even if it doesn't matter much against Priscilla. It was point made for what experience Teresa can possibly gain.

But before I break down into details, I basically said what Tempest said that in general Teresa had far more experience then Priscilla. It is after we started arguing about what exact experience she had then I went into specific points. So I do find it odd that you can accept someone else's first post that basically sums up what I said initially. Yet you didn't accept mine and we had to go down into details and arguments about every point raised.

irvinethearcher

2009-06-28, 10:45

It was clear that i referred only to experience which was useful in the one on one fight against priscilla because it was all about to measure the raw potential/talent of priscilla and teresa. And that is all what is of interest here. And teresa gained IMO in all those years nearly nothing except that she matured which was of help in the one on one fight against priscilla. That was clearly my point from the start.
About that "deduction". Don't you think you're overdoing it here, inventing things which are unknown if they even exist? And again to train you need the right stimulus. This is a basic law of nature and not some religious believe. If you want to train sprints walking around the block would be of no use.
So how did teresa train this efficient yoki usage when she(with high probability) used her yoki only once against rosemary? Only once releasing yoki would not bring her an advantage to priscilla.
And this discussion is ALL about the advantage teresa gained with training/fighting/learning... to priscilla.
And sorry i can't see one except that raffaella somehow trained her and told her some secrets she could use even in such a fight dominated by base skills.

I am really disappointed that you did not said something about what ophelia said to clare about efficient movements. I don't understand the english translation here. It was your argument.
But it seems you are not interested in the truth, only in defending your point :(

Tempest said the same as i said so i agreed with him
She might have had the strength, she might have had the skill - but she did not have the field experience to be an effective warrior given her position.

SagaraSouske

2009-06-28, 14:24

I didn't say anything about wasted movement because I thought you already understood it. If you are referring to Page 38 on Volume 7 where Ophelia commented to Clare as she was standing at the cliff. She basically said:

So many things you have done are a complete waste of time and effort. The way you fight is the same. You only use enough power to fend off my attacks and suppress the rest. You better utilize your power more efficiently...

In this instance, I think Clare is trying to suppress youki to read Ophelia's youki flow. The critique Ophelia given is basically goading Clare to release more youki to awakened because Ophelia really wanted to kill Clare as an AB. It doesn't have much to do with combat skill.

What I was referring to about wasted movement is when Ritful observed Clare execute Quicksword and commented on it.

Regarding the experience argument. I'd rather not get drawn back into it. Basically all the points I raised are to support that Teresa has a lot of experience over Priscilla and your initial response was Teresa do not have any more experience then Priscilla. Now that you agree, the specifics are semantics and secondary to the main point.

irvinethearcher

2009-06-28, 15:15

Thx 4 the information:
I was always wondering what ophelia was talking about.
Riful talked about special techniques. Like audrey's or rachel's gentle sword and aggressive(?) sword.
But priscilla and teresa fought only with base skills.
And i think that those high class warriors mastered those skills during their academy time already.
Clare for example was very weak from the start, so she had to first use normal swords instead of a claymore. teresa and priscilla trained with claymores probably much earlier in their carrier because they probably had the same strength as miata who has no problems of fighting with the large sword. It was probably never a question of strength but of the length of their bodies compared to the claymore.
So they had enough time to master all basic techniques and to get into the plateau phase of the learning curve. And if you look at miata fighting you can clearly see that she has mastered base skills and swordplay already.

Tempest35

2009-06-28, 17:55

Hnn, I think that you two are doing near-hits/misses on what each other is trying to say here :heh:

I think that summing up the swordplay demonstrated between Teresa and Priscilla as mere 'basic swordplay' is a little much... They learned and used high-level swordplay techniques against each other, there was nothing 'basic' about it. I think that saying they used just their base/normal strength against each other is bit more fitting. Teresa fighting against Irene, Noel, and Sophia could have been utilizing 75%-80% of her total 'base' capacity. When she went up against Priscilla, she had to raise it up to around 90-95% to overcome the 'lag' she was receiving due to Priscilla's lack of showing her youki. Even so, she was still well within her own 'base' parameters. Only when Priscilla started to deform from youki usage and her attacks became too much for her 'base' setting to deal with, did she boost herself with youki.

Coincidently, I think that Teresa had the largest youki multiplication factor of any warrior ever (talking like x9000 per 10% here XD)

Priscilla was still young enough for her body to continue maturing and yet, base strength was as such that it made Teresa's eyes widened on the first blow. Her look was the same as "Holy sh*t, I can't feel an ounce of youki from her (aka, she's not using youki as I am) and she's this strong? She's still so young/not a seasoned warrior yet." That is the potential that the Org, Irene, and Teresa felt from her. Irene, Noel and Sophia were already seasoned warriors - Teresa knew that they were as strong as they'd every get. Priscilla was not as seasoned a fighter as they were (with having possible years under their belts) - she was still young, fresh, already incredibly strong and fast and with the ingrained ability to keep her youki undetectable.

Looking at that, it is hard not to see that given a few years, Priscilla could not take Teresa, who would have further degenerated as a warrior while Priscilla would have just been getting better. Teresa would probably have liked it better if she had her head taken at that point in time by Priscilla because that 'black/white' world view she had would have had to been altered slightly just by her living the life of a Claymore. Having her head taken by a naive little girl who was barely out of training would have grated her ego, which it did.

Without the use of youki, Teresa's desire for life which was greater than Priscilla's desire to kill her (for the greater good, in her mind). It made her sword 'heavier' so to speak. With the use of youki, Priscilla's desire skyrocketed and became a personal vendetta, especially after Teresa spared her and she went 'crazy' with anger and bitterness. Teresa's 'desire for life' became her undoing because Priscilla, mad with rage and youki, exploited it to her own end. Well, that's one view I have on the fight. :heh:

SagaraSouske

2009-06-28, 18:50

Coincidently, I think that Teresa had the largest youki multiplication factor of any warrior ever (talking like x9000 per 10% here XD)

Or you can present this another way and say her efficiency at utilizing youki is bar none. She can get more power out of her 10% then anyone else.

Anyways, I am not a fan of the Priscilla is not grown up and Teresa is a mature women and thus their strength, speed, youki difference stems from that. I do agree as years go by, Claymore's strength, speed and youki go up, but not because of their body maturing. I think once they are hybridized, they can no longer be viewed the same as humans and the maturity of human body shouldn't really apply to them. I guess what I am saying is that all claymores are essentially mature biologically. Teresa's experience is from more time she spend as a claymore rather then more time to become a mature woman.

Tempest35

2009-06-28, 20:15

I think solid proof of the 'grown up/mature' thing rests on if Miata actually does any growing or if she's stuck as is. Most likely she's stuck as is since as soon as the hybrid alchemy is put on the girls they supposedly stop aging all together.

If that's the case, then 'maturing' would have to be replaced by 'stabilizing' or something to that nature. The more youki one uses, the less of the 'human' remains, thus the short turn-a-round time for Claymores. So the part of the training that occurs after that, it's really more of a 'getting used to the new body' period of time for the cadets and a time to see just what sort of 'specs' the girls can get out of their new bodies. They (the girls) learn how to use their new body well enough to pass training...but those who have the luck to have higher 'specs' as well as a strong will get to come up with special techniques and such.

Kikaifan

2009-06-29, 11:50

Shiek927

2009-06-29, 12:03

I can't remember the chapter to check but doesn't Teresa look a lot younger when she meets Raphaela? I think 'matures but doesn't age' is supposed to imply that they grow as children but don't decline as adults.

Bingo.

They reach physical maturity, and then enter a stage of "neglible senscience" and don't show any signs of aging whatsoever. Most likely, they're completely ageless unless killed. I highly doubt Claymores will ever die in their sleep or of natural causes.

irvinethearcher

2009-06-29, 18:43

Or you can present this another way and say her efficiency at utilizing youki is bar none. She can get more power out of her 10% then anyone else.

Anyways, I am not a fan of the Priscilla is not grown up and Teresa is a mature women and thus their strength, speed, youki difference stems from that. I do agree as years go by, Claymore's strength, speed and youki go up, but not because of their body maturing. I think once they are hybridized, they can no longer be viewed the same as humans and the maturity of human body shouldn't really apply to them. I guess what I am saying is that all claymores are essentially mature biologically. Teresa's experience is from more time she spend as a claymore rather then more time to become a mature woman.

I think it is quite clear and miata who had always the potential to become nr.1, is now as a perhaps 11 or 12 year old girl not fully developed(lower yoki, strength, speed). A 25 year old miata in the same training state and with the same experience would beat a 12 year old girl because of her physical maturity. To discuss or disagree with this is only for the sake of a debate but does not bring out anything fruitful i think. I think we can assume this without thinking to deeply about it,it is simply common sense. And it is common sense that a 25 year old priscilla would be significantly stronger than a 16 year old. I think a good and simple argument for this is that claymores are half human and human simply develop that way. If they mature like vampires or not is something we don't know but we can not totally say that this is nonsense because yuma became that strong that she could even beat number 14(?). Alone with training?
I think you are right that irene probably meant that they only get full grown.

dweller of the deep

2009-07-01, 21:18

I can't remember the chapter to check but doesn't Teresa look a lot younger when she meets Raphaela? I think 'matures but doesn't age' is supposed to imply that they grow as children but don't decline as adults.

wasn't Teresa still a trainee then? and not a full claymore? :confused: i think I remember someone came to get her to training.

Tempest35

2009-07-02, 08:43

Yeah she was still a trainee but she obviously had the hybridzation process already done on her since she was already sensing youki... And humans can't sense youki to a certain extent.

So they can and do 'grow up' in a sense. That's good to clear up - now all my in-head theories aren't debunked. :heh:

irvinethearcher

2009-07-06, 16:33

I think that summing up the swordplay demonstrated between Teresa and Priscilla as mere 'basic swordplay' is a little much... They learned and used high-level swordplay techniques against each other, there was nothing 'basic' about it.

Base skills are for me normal sword play. Advanced skills are preemptive aura protection, rippling sword, quicksword, windcutter, drillsword or what helen can do with her arms.
Only because i say they are base skills does not mean that they are ineffective or weak. Those base skills were performed with an insane amount of speed and power. So IMO even teresa's or priscilla's base skills are sufficient to beat irene's flash sword like rafaella could simply block clare's windcutter.
But that is not because they are more skilled. They simply have more strength and speed.
A good example was the sparring fight at paburo between miria and clare.
Nothing was in the fight between priscilla and teresa except theresa stepping on the tip of the sword what we have not seen in the fight between clare an miria too.

willyvereb

2009-07-06, 16:47

dweller of the deep

2009-07-06, 16:59

I think Priscilla created to be the executor of Teresa by the Org from the start. She probably had a bigger potencial and she's trained to supress her Youki.

I thought of that too. But it doesn't make much sense. Teresa was terrifyingly powerful, she did whatever she had to do with no complains. She was the perfect warrior until she found Clare.

willyvereb

2009-07-06, 22:24

The fact that her being too powerfull and living for too long is a reason enough. Not to mention that she did some suspicious things(like when she indirectly stated in a small village that the organisation creates and sends the Yoma).
Without Clare she probably survives much longer(and maybe becomes an Abyssal)
But now if I think about it an awakened Teresa could be a greater threat than Raciella. So probably Rubel was wrong about that Priscilla unlocked all her potencial once she awakens or Teresa has more potencial to begin with.

Shiek927

2009-07-06, 22:32

But now if I think about it an awakened Teresa could be a greater threat than Raciella. So probably Rubel was wrong about that Priscilla unlocked all her potencial once she awakens or Teresa has more potencial to begin with

No no, she DID awaken all her potential, it's just like you said, Teresa had much more. Priscilla's strength is that of 2 Abyssal Ones, but Teresa's is that of 3 or even 4, she's invincible.

Imagine, Priscilla, and all her power, being beaten by someone who only released 10 percent of her power. She's unstoppable.

Ryuken

2009-07-06, 23:52

She was unstoppable and yet even she was stopped in the end for the greater good, that being Clare of course.:)

dweller of the deep

2009-07-07, 12:00

No no, she DID awaken all her potential, it's just like you said, Teresa had much more. Priscilla's strength is that of 2 Abyssal Ones, but Teresa's is that of 3 or even 4, she's invincible.

Imagine, Priscilla, and all her power, being beaten by someone who only released 10 percent of her power. She's unstoppable.

"was"

she ended up dead, so it means she was stoppable. :upset:

while Priscilla had a great potential, Teresa had already passed that, she had the power. she just chose the worst of times to be distraught.

Shiek927

2009-07-07, 12:03

"was"

she ended up dead, so it means she was stoppable. :upset:

while Priscilla had a great potential, Teresa had already passed that, she had the power. she just chose the worst of times to be distraught.

I was speaking hypothetically :heh:

Imagine if Teresa fully awakened, she'd be invincible.

dweller of the deep

2009-07-07, 12:08

I was speaking hypothetically :heh:

Imagine if Teresa fully awakened, she'd be invincible.

:heh:

not even the Abyssal Ones would be enough to defeat her. together. plus Priscilla.

I would like to see her awakened form. He only saw 10% of her powers released... we didn't even saw her "ugly" :p

irvinethearcher

2009-07-07, 12:42

I think Priscilla created to be the executor of Teresa by the Org from the start. She probably had a bigger potencial and she's trained to supress her Youki.
I think Priscilla was pretty much inferior to Teresa in everything(except Youki cloaking) at the time.
According to my theories about the Claymores the accumulation of expreience incereases every abilities of the Claymores(including the amount of Youki). Because the more the claymore xercises her abilities, more the youma flesh learns. It changes/upgrades it's composition with every bit of action.

But what exercises did theresa compared to priscilla?
She probably did not train on her own. The manga described her as a lazy prodigy who was already stronger than everyone else. She was cynical and lonely and had seemingly no real goals. Simply not the type who trains like rocky balboa. Even her
asset the preemptive aura protection seems to be the most lazy technique of them all.:heh:
She fought yoma most of the time. Even ophelia refused to fight yoma because they were to weak for her to learn something from them(xtra chapter 2).
The only known adversary for teresa was rosemary. But rosemary(xtra chapter 1) was slaughtered by teresa like clare slaughtered normal yoma when she was number 47.
But if you want you can read the last pages. I had a not very nice dispute with Sagara about this. You can build your own opinion on this. Perhaps in the end i did not waste all the time in vane.

@shiek927
there was only a small chance that two AO could beat priscilla according to riful. I have read the witch's maw again. Riful knew about priscilla's mental state god knows how she got the info but she knew it. So she assumed that perhaps a surprise attack from two AO's could do the job. What a "fit for battle" awakened priscilla could really do no one knows.
Look at chapter 45 arround page 28 (OM). I for my part still think that priscilla would be even stronger than raciella if both are motivated and fully recharged. Just something my nose tells me.

Fenrir_valindri

2009-07-07, 12:53

Teresa still likely went through the training process of a normal warrior, and I find it highly doubtful that she was never on an Awakened Being hunt, especially with her ability.

Just because Teresa had a large amount of power doesn't mean it wasn't honed while she killed Yoma. The simple act of killing Yoma efficiently, and even the so called "lazy" preemptive Yoki perception still show us a level of concentration and skill that we can't just write off as the result of a "lazy" prodigy.

If anything I think Teresa understood her power far too well for someone to claim that she never trained or practiced with it. She may have been far more powerful then any of her opponents, but you don't gain confidence like hers with just power, you gain it from experience as well.

and for the record, Clare actually had a pretty damn hard time with normal Yoma at the beginning of this Manga, although I suppose Teresa did get a few injuries before she annihilated Rosemary.

Shiek927

2009-07-07, 14:02

there was only a small chance that two AO could beat priscilla according to riful. I have read the witch's maw again. Riful knew about priscilla's mental state god knows how she got the info but she knew it. So she assumed that perhaps a surprise attack from two AO's could do the job. What a "fit for battle" awakened priscilla could really do no one knows.
Look at chapter 45 arround page 28 (OM). I for my part still think that priscilla would be even stronger than raciella if both are motivated and fully recharged. Just something my nose tells me.

Perhaps, and you're right, she said "the only chance" to beat Priscilla was 2 AO's, perhaps Priscilla is even stronger then that, but I'm really doubting it, if only because that measure is how her strength is been measure for a long time.

Not to mention, it still doesn't change the fact that, for all of her strength, it only took 10% to beat her. The gap between Teresa and Priscilla is about as wide as the gap between Priscilla and everyone else.

Trafalgar Law

2009-07-07, 14:14

Perhaps, and you're right, she said "the only chance" to beat Priscilla was 2 AO's, perhaps Priscilla is even stronger then that, but I'm really doubting it, if only because that measure is how her strength is been measure for a long time.

Not to mention, it still doesn't change the fact that, for all of her strength, it only took 10% to beat her. The gap between Teresa and Priscilla is about as wide as the gap between Priscilla and everyone else.
Do you really think that she had so much power with just 10%?
You don't need to be stronger to beat someone. Imo, Priscilla surpassed Teresa in everything - strength, speed, yoki - but Theresa was simply the better swordswoman.
Then Pris went on rampage, and all Teresa had to do was get enough speed and strength to fight her.

Priscilla defeated her because she tricked her. She didn't expect the first blow, wasn't fast enough to dodge her, and then Pris could easily decapitate her.

Shiek927

2009-07-07, 14:21

Do you really think that she had so much power with just 10%?
You don't need to be stronger to beat someone. Imo, Priscilla surpassed Teresa in everything - strength, speed, yoki - but Theresa was simply the better swordswoman.

....No, actually Teresa WAS stronger in her in all those fields :confused:, the only thing Priscilla had going for her was her suppression. Yes Teresa had experience, which she didn't, but once Teresa boosted herself up, that wasn't Priscilla's only problem("What , I suddenly slowed down! No, she sped up!").

The first couple chapters of that battle give off the impression that Priscilla has more latent potential then Teresa while Teresa was weaker but had experience. Reading on, we figure out that it was the opposite: Teresa had experience AND more power then her. All Priscilla really had was her suppression, which didn't matter because with a little increase, Priscilla's weak swordmanship couldn't handle her anymore.

She was killed because she was tricked like you said; but the results showed that, despite being almost fully awakened, all it took was 10% to push Priscilla's overwhelming power back and make her cry. I think that shows just how big the gap is between the two, just as the gap is between Priscilla and everyone else.

Fenrir_valindri

2009-07-07, 15:57

We can assume that Teresa was stronger then her in all those fields, but I'm still of the belief that Priscilla was nowhere near reaching her full-potential at that time (and Teresa seemed to agree) so we can't accurately use that as a measuring stick for Priscilla's full potential versus Teresa's.

I still put stock in Teresa's own assessment of Priscilla tbh, she stated that she was unsure if she could beat Priscilla in the future, and that carries a lot of weight coming from someone as powerful and confident as Teresa.

irvinethearcher

2009-07-07, 17:18

Teresa still likely went through the training process of a normal warrior, and I find it highly doubtful that she was never on an Awakened Being hunt, especially with her ability.

I did not say that she was never on an AB hunt. I said she fought yoma most of the time. And that seems to be true if we look at her normal tasks. She killed perhaps 10 yoma per weak and one AB per month. Nothing really amazing for her if we consider her potential. If a former number one was totally outclassed by her normal ABs were probably nothing she could gain a lot of experience from which would have helped her in the fight against priscilla. I define an normal AB as an awakened number 23 claymore. Not strong not weak.

The simple act of killing Yoma efficiently, and even the so called "lazy" preemptive Yoki perception still show us a level of concentration and skill that we can't just write off as the result of a "lazy" prodigy.

Yes we can. I can even nearly prove it to you. Teresa could read yoki even as a little child better to the minuscule detail than the god eye galatea if we assume that rafaella was fully suppressed at the moment she met teresa. And even if rafaella was still leaking out some yoki it was an incredible performance of teresa.
I think it is fair to say that raphaella was at least stealthed like a normal warrior on the meds when she met little totally untrained teresa.
So she probably had not to train a lot for that move of preemptive aura detection.
Remember that galatea saw the leg of agatha vanish without seeing the ghosts.
And please stay honest. There is no way a giant like teresa could gain experience which helped her against priscilla from squashing a few yoma per week. That is simply common sense. Every time teresa used her sword a yoma felt dead to the ground. Even the power hungry and revenge thirsty ophelia did not use yoma for training because she was way to strong to get experience from killing yoma. If killing yoma would have been usefull for her to get stronger in order to kill priscilla or awakened beings she surely would have killed every last one of them by herself.

If anything I think Teresa understood her power far too well for someone to claim that she never trained or practiced with it. She may have been far more powerful then any of her opponents, but you don't gain confidence like hers with just power, you gain it from experience as well.

You gain confidence if you can measure their capacity with yoki sensing and you know that even with 10% release you have far more yoki than any of them with 100%.

and for the record, Clare actually had a pretty damn hard time with normal Yoma at the beginning of this Manga, although I suppose Teresa did get a few injuries before she annihilated Rosemary.

Only her cape was demolished. Perhaps you are right to compare it with clare's first fights would be underestimating teresa.

I still put stock in Teresa's own assessment of Priscilla tbh, she stated that she was unsure if she could beat Priscilla in the future, and that carries a lot of weight coming from someone as powerful and confident as Teresa.

When she said that she could not read priscilla's yoki. Only from exchanging blows she can only make a crude estimation of her strength.
But you know what she said in the end too? "You can come after me as often as you want. I'll cut you down every single time!" She even spared priscilla two(?) times and if she was not honest about that she would have risked to die and let the one who she wanted to live for alone or even endanger clare's life. Therefore i think in the end, when she could read priscilla's yoki she knew that she probably would never be a match for her. But i think this is more debateable as the main point i wanted to make:
"Theresa gained in all her years as a number one no experience which could have significantly helped her in the fight against priscilla!"
Only maturing could bring priscilla in the league of teresa as long as priscilla does not train exotic things or techniques which teresa didn't except the totally useless(in the fight against priscilla) preemptive aura detection. I even think that this technique played a role in the success of priscilla's sneak attack.
Teresa was simply used to rely on it to much and not using her real powers.

Fenrir_valindri

2009-07-07, 19:01

I did not say that she was never on an AB hunt. I said she fought yoma most of the time. And that seems to be true if we look at her normal tasks. She killed perhaps 10 yoma per weak and one AB per month. Nothing really amazing for her if we consider her potential. If a former number one was totally outclassed by her normal ABs were probably nothing she could gain a lot of experience from which would have helped her in the fight against priscilla. I define an normal AB as an awakened number 23 claymore. Not strong not weak.

A #1 wouldn't be sent on errands to go kill some average AB, if anything she would only be sent against single-digit AB, and yes, even the relatively mundane task of killing Yoma would contribute to your experience, otherwise no single digit gains anything from fighting Yoma, which is absurd. It is like saying a Black Belt never learns anything from sparring with amateurs, if someone claims that they gain nothing from it, they are full of themselves.

In case your wondering, they have eluded that warriors are assigned by their numbers to different regions, the more dangerous regions going to single-digits. I believe Helen is the one that mentions this the first time her and Clare meet.

Yes we can. I can even nearly prove it to you. Teresa could read yoki even as a little child better to the minuscule detail than the god eye galatea if we assume that rafaella was fully suppressed at the moment she met teresa. And even if rafaella was still leaking out some yoki it was an incredible performance of teresa.
I think it is fair to say that raphaella was at least stealthed like a normal warrior on the meds when she met little totally untrained teresa.

So she probably had not to train a lot for that move of preemptive aura detection.
Remember that galatea saw the leg of agatha vanish without seeing the ghosts.

If we ASSUME that Raphaela was already fully supressed, then yes, it is possible Teresa has better Yoki detection then Galatea at this point, until we realize that Teresa several years later couldn't detect Priscilla at all.

And please stay honest. There is no way a giant like teresa could gain experience which helped her against priscilla from squashing a few yoma per week. That is simply common sense. Every time teresa used her sword a yoma felt dead to the ground. Even the power hungry and revenge thirsty ophelia did not use yoma for training because she was way to strong to get experience from killing yoma. If killing yoma would have been usefull for her to get stronger in order to kill priscilla or awakened beings she surely would have killed every last one of them by herself.

I am being honest, as someone who has trained in martial arts and studied it as well, I can assure you, the most repetitive tasks possible still help you develop and grow a great deal. Most Masters of a Martial Art are masters because they have perfected the basics. Fancy training and difficult encounters are not required to develop your natural talent, the time and the opportunity to develop those abilities are however.

You gain confidence if you can measure their capacity with yoki sensing and you know that even with 10% release you have far more yoki than any of them with 100%.

That is how you become cocky, not confident, their is a difference there. Teresa's attitude and words indicates to me she knew her limits and the extent of her own abilities quite well, she never belittled her opponents, she was quite blunt a majority of the time.

Only her cape was demolished. Perhaps you are right to compare it with clare's first fights would be underestimating teresa.

Guess the blood coming from her forehead was my imagination.

When she said that she could not read priscilla's yoki. Only from exchanging blows she can only make a crude estimation of her strength.

For an experienced warrior, an exchange of blows can tell you a lot, a lot more then a "Crude" estimation, especially with a warrior as skilled as Teresa. There is a reason exchanging blows and commenting on your opponents skill is quite common in stories like this.

But you know what she said in the end too? "You can come after me as often as you want. I'll cut you down every single time!" She even spared priscilla two(?) times and if she was not honest about that she would have risked to die and let the one who she wanted to live for alone or even endanger clare's life. Therefore i think in the end, when she could read priscilla's yoki she knew that she probably would never be a match for her. But i think this is more debateable as the main point i wanted to make:

Yes, after she defeated Priscilla and was discouraging them from coming after her again. She didn't think Priscilla would go batshit crazy and KILL HER anyway, despite her claims that she would cut her down every time. Sure it was a surprise attack, but I guess Teresa's assessment that Priscilla would never beat her was false.

Then Priscilla goes on to be the most powerful being in the Claymoreverse, which kind of tells me that Teresa was on the mark the first time, and not the second.

I personally think being able to measure Priscilla's immature Yoki probably lead Teresa to underestimate her more then anything.

I would think the experience with Clare, and people constantly underestimating her due to Yoki-measurement would help make the point here, but it never seems to.

"Theresa gained in all her years as a number one no experience which could have significantly helped her in the fight against priscilla!"
Only maturing could bring priscilla in the league of teresa as long as priscilla does not train exotic things or techniques which teresa didn't except the totally useless(in the fight against priscilla) preemptive aura detection. I even think that this technique played a role in the success of priscilla's sneak attack.
Teresa was simply used to rely on it to much and not using her real powers.

Teresa's reliance on her Pre-emptive Yoki aura did make the initial exchange more difficult then it would have been, but I think Teresa's swift adaptation to the first time she was unable to use one of her strongest abilities is quite telling to her experience, not just her power.

My primary point has always been that Priscilla would have developed into a warrior that was Teresa's equal, if not better, if it not for what had occurred, but at the time she faced Teresa, she was nowhere near her full potential.

The difference between a teenager and an adult it quite telling, even if neither of them train particularly hard, it is simply a matter of physical and mental maturity.

Edit: disclaimer = take this for a grain of salt if you don't agree, but that's how I see it.

Ryuken

2009-07-08, 09:25

Well, if I think that Teresa would fully awaken then she would become an abomination. An extremely powerful entity.:)

irvinethearcher

2009-07-08, 14:58

Okay, here comes my point of view.

A #1 wouldn't be sent on errands to go kill some average AB, if anything she would only be sent against single-digit AB, and yes, even the relatively mundane task of killing Yoma would contribute to your experience, otherwise no single digit gains anything from fighting Yoma, which is absurd. It is like saying a Black Belt never learns anything from sparring with amateurs, if someone claims that they gain nothing from it, they are full of themselves.

I am being honest, as someone who has trained in martial arts and studied it as well, I can assure you, the most repetitive tasks possible still help you develop and grow a great deal. Most Masters of a Martial Art are masters because they have perfected the basics. Fancy training and difficult encounters are not required to develop your natural talent, the time and the opportunity to develop those abilities are however.

A #1 kills what had to be killed. Awakened number 2s like agatha are a really rare thing. So we can assume that teresa fought perhaps normally not more than perhaps one AB per month. If we assume that it was an "normal" AB(sometimes stronger sometimes weaker) and that she fought it alone because the org must have at least known that she could handle it alone. There would be no "significant" experience gained from fighting it which could have helped her against priscilla. Teresa needed one swing of her sword to kill a yoma. How many swings do you think she need to take an "normal" AB down? 2? 3? Perhaps 4 seems to be fair despite i think that one or two would probably do the job.
Don't argue that yoma can fight back and are moving targets. Number 14's sword stood still for yuma. So youma were for teresa probably nothing more like trees once she sensed them.
Now we can summarize teresa's swings:
Lets say she kills 7 yoma per week. Which seems to be realistiv from what was shown in the manga. And lets say she kills one "normal" AB per month.
#swings/month = 4 * 7 (yoma) + 4("normal" ab) = 32 swings.
Let's say she was 10 years older than priscilla which makes:
10 * 12 * 32 = 3264 swings in ten years. Now if we think she could make during a training session 10 swings per second without exhausting herself she would probably take down a whole forest with 6000 trees in 10 minutes without getting exhausted. That would be an apropriate stimulus for someone like her.
So now there is my question to an martial arts specialist.
If you do exercise 8 punches per weak against a sandbag, lets say every second day two punches. Do you think you would be significantly superior to some kung fu noob like me who does nothing at all and is as gifted as you AND we both know how to punch from the millitary. I don't think you would own me without problems. I think you could even loose with a perhaps 45% probability to me.
I can not prove or count any yoma and ab she had ever slain but i think i have a point here.

In case your wondering, they have eluded that warriors are assigned by their numbers to different regions, the more dangerous regions going to single-digits. I believe Helen is the one that mentions this the first time her and Clare meet.

The number one is stationed near rabona according to cynthia so that she can reach every point of the island very fast. This would indeed mean that she is in the most dangerous region. But times were peacefull when teresa lifed so it seemed. Rosemary was probably the strongest she had ever fought before priscilla.

If we ASSUME that Raphaela was already fully supressed, then yes, it is possible Teresa has better Yoki detection then Galatea at this point, until we realize that Teresa several years later couldn't detect Priscilla at all.
It is a good point from you.
I think priscilla is special in suppression. She was even for the eye lune standing next to her undetectable until she touched her and she was an super powerfull AB. But let's say chibi teresa was as good as blind galatea which seems fair to me. So there was no need for her to train her preemptive aura detection very hard. She probably was nearly born with it. => Lazy prodigy.

That is how you become cocky, not confident, their is a difference there. Teresa's attitude and words indicates to me she knew her limits and the extent of her own abilities quite well, she never belittled her opponents, she was quite blunt a majority of the time.
But she said to rosemary that it is very rare for her to even release her yoki. She could have known everything about it from other comrades telling's.
I personally think she was afraid to use her power and never released more than 30%.

For an experienced warrior, an exchange of blows can tell you a lot, a lot more then a "Crude" estimation, especially with a warrior as skilled as Teresa. There is a reason exchanging blows and commenting on your opponents skill is quite common in stories like this.
But this is not reality this is claymore where yoki exists and yoki is normally the most important factor to measure strength so it seems.
And why do you think she said at the end that they could come after them as soon as they want and why do you think she risked clare's life or risked to make her an orphan again. Then clare would probably become a claymore what she really disliked for clare if she was not confident at the end that she could beat priscilla no matter what?

Yes, after she defeated Priscilla and was discouraging them from coming after her again. She didn't think Priscilla would go batshit crazy and KILL HER anyway, despite her claims that she would cut her down every time. Sure it was a surprise attack, but I guess Teresa's assessment that Priscilla would never beat her was false.

I think teresa assumed with a 99,9% probability that she could never beat her and did not want to kill an inocent rookie for a 0.01% chance.

I would think the experience with Clare, and people constantly underestimating her due to Yoki-measurement would help make the point here, but it never seems to.
Clare is half-awakened and has the strongest warrior of all times inside of her.
Clare is special and not comparable to normal claymores like irene, ophelia or teresa or priscilla. Theresa measured priscilla releasing yoki over 70% and still wanted to spare her despite risking clare's well being? I don't think so.

Teresa's reliance on her Pre-emptive Yoki aura did make the initial exchange more difficult then it would have been, but I think Teresa's swift adaptation to the first time she was unable to use one of her strongest abilities is quite telling to her experience, not just her power.

Why? Did she ever fought other stealthed person's? I think this is false logic.
It is as if you say a cobra who had never fought her worst enemy the mongoose was able to beat the mongoose because she had killed many rats(yoma).
And because of her great experience in killing rats she swiftly adapted to the dangerous mongoose:heh:
Teresa did not adapt with technique. She simply speeded up. this was clearly written in the manga.

The difference between a teenager and an adult it quite telling, even if neither of them train particularly hard, it is simply a matter of physical and mental maturity.
now we are talking!:D

irvinethearcher

2009-07-08, 15:12

Yes Teresa had experience, which she didn't
have you ever read my posts about that? I feel like writing against a solid wall:(
She was more mentally stable but that's useless against priscilla's sword.
We can even assume that priscilla trained waaayyy harder than teresa if we consider how fanatic she was.

Shiek927

2009-07-08, 15:35

have you ever read my posts about that? I feel like writing against a solid wall:(
She was more mentally stable but that's useless against priscilla's sword.
We can even assume that priscilla trained waaayyy harder than teresa if we consider how fanatic she was.

Uh uh, I don't believe that. Just because she came off as a fanatic, doesn't mean the other trainees were just as fierce when they first showed up, not to mention she wasn't a fanatic, she just hated Yoma and hated traitors, which I'm sure all new warriors felt the same, she just came off as a "fanatic" because she was more emotional due to her age. Considering how new Priscilla was, It's still means nothing against Teresa's experience regardless how much training Priscilla got.

Are you saying that Priscilla has more training, to the point that it goes against Teresa's lifelong experience in the incredibly short time span Priscilla got before she fought her? Ridiculous.

And who's "927" :confused:, is that me? 0_o :heh:

I may have missed your posts on this matter, since I was mostly debating against Dweller and Fenrir.

irvinethearcher

2009-07-08, 15:55

Uh uh, I don't believe that. Just because she came off as a fanatic, doesn't mean the other trainees were just as fierce when they first showed up, not to mention she wasn't a fanatic, she just hated Yoma and hated traitors, which I'm sure all new warriors felt the same, she just came off as a "fanatic" because she was more emotional due to her age. Considering how new Priscilla was, It's still means nothing against Teresa's experience regardless how much training Priscilla got.

Are you saying that Priscilla has more training, to the point that it goes against Teresa's lifelong experience in the incredibly short time span Priscilla got before she fought her? Ridiculous.

And who's "927" :confused:, is that me? 0_o :heh:

I may have missed your posts on this matter, since I was mostly debating against Dweller and Fenrir.

Ridiculous is when someone thinks that experience comes only from aging and doing tasks who don't even are a challenge for someone. This was teresa's life.
The essence is that everyone thinks teresa was more experienced in fighting. But imo that is totally wrong. Her plus in experience is insignificant. She fought only small fry even rosemary was no match for her.
Little priscilla saw herself as some hero who defended the good and the organisation. She hated yoma most of all and was very dutyfull even fanatic to the org. Going after teresa despite knowing that she could not beat her and that she even spared her is a fanatic trait. If that's not fanatic what then?
So because of her dutyfullness she probably trained waayy harder than the problem child teresa ever did. This would easily compensate for the few points of experience teresa gained from killing yoma or sometimes an AB who was probably no real problem for her if she could beat rosemary that easily.
To gain experience you have to "experience" something which can help you to master future situations. Priscilla was an adversary she never fought before that's for sure. Even if priscilla not trained more the experience teresa gained was of nearly no use in her last fight.
And there is one thing everyone who thinks yoma are a good training should consider. If the sword of number 14 stood still to yuma how do you think a yoma would appear to teresa?
Like a tree is the right answer.

Sorry for the "927":(

Shiek927

2009-07-08, 16:12

The essence is that everyone thinks teresa was more experienced in fighting. But imo that is totally wrong. Her plus in experience is insignificant. She fought only small fry even rosemary was no match for her.
Little priscilla saw herself as some hero who defended the good and the organisation. She hated yoma most of all and was very dutyfull even fanatic to the org. Going after teresa despite knowing that she could not beat her and that she even spared her is a fanatic trait. If that's not fanatic what then?
So because of her dutyfullness she probably trained waayy harder than the problem child teresa ever did. This would easily compensate for the few points of experience teresa gained from killing yoma or sometimes an AB who was probably no real problem for her if she could beat rosemary that easily.
To gain experience you mus "experience" something which can help you to master future situations. Priscilla was an adversary she never fought before that's for sure. Even if priscilla not trained more the experience teresa gained was of nearly no use in her last fight.

Sorry for the "927":(

Their were only "small-fry" because she was so much stronger then them. You cannot, under any cirumstances, discount Teresa's life-long experience. Yes, she had so much power, that it only took a speck to ahniliate everyone, but you CANNOT discount it, it's too important. It explains why Priscilla briefly looked like she actually had a chance to beat her because of her suppression, until Teresa turned up the heat and showed that it didn't matter matter, as well as explaining why Priscilla, power aside, had no chance.

It's not fanatacism because I see no reason to believe why she was the only one who behaved that way; she was fresh out of training, and fresh from her family being butchered by yoma, a story that is not at all uncommon. Every Claymore's story is a tragedy, including Teresa. Why should we not assume she was just as "fanatic" when she first arrived on the Organization's door? eager for revenge and justice until she calmed down and realized how corrupt they really were? Look at little Claire, eager for revenge and shoving the people aside who got in the way of her fights with that bully, repairing her arm brutally. Is that fanaticism? No, that's an "iron resolve", the name of the chapter. Claire had it, Priscilla had it, every Claymore had it when they first showed up because they wanted to make up for what they lost. Teresa just never appeared that way because, when we saw her as a "problem child", she was older then Priscilla and had already calmed down and got into system of things. Besides, why was she a problem child to begin with? Could it be because of her parents selling her and she became brash and hated humans while Priscilla wanted to help them?

Priscilla was emotional, but she wasn't crazy; neither was Claire, neither was Teresa, neither was really anybody, except Ophelia perhaps.

Getting back on topic, you seem to forget that Teresa rarely if ever uses her unbeatable power. Yes she can use a bit of her strength to kill anyone, but when do you see her using it? She said it herself when she fought Rosemary, she rarely used it, and before she did, it looks like Rosemary might actually win. In that battle alone, was she not using solely her experience and swordsmanship? Wasn't she improving herself without having to rely on her yoma power, even if she did at the end? She's like the Ghosts; wanting to improve themselves without using their power immidiately. She uses it when it's necessary, but only when it's necessary. Other then that, she uses strictly her swordsmanship, which has improved throughout her lifetime. That Irvine, is called experience.

irvinethearcher

2009-07-08, 16:25

Their were only "small-fry" because she was so much stronger then them. You cannot, under any cirumstances, discount Teresa's life-long experience. Yes, she had so much power, that it only took a speck to ahniliate everyone, but you CANNOT discount it, it's too important. It explains why Priscilla briefly looked like she actually had a chance to beat her because of her suppression, until Teresa turned up the heat and showed that it didn't matter matter, as well as explaining why Priscilla, power aside, had no chance.

It's not fanatacism because I see no reason to believe why she was the only one who behaved that way; she was fresh out of training, and fresh from her family being butchered by yoma, a story that is not at all uncommon. Every Claymore's story is a tragedy, including Teresa. Why should we not assume she was just as "fanatic" when she first arrived on the Organization's door? eager for revenge and justice until she calmed down and realized how corrupt they really were? Look at little Claire, eager for revenge and shoving the people aside who got in the way of her fights with that bully, repairing her arm brutally. Is that fanaticism? No, that's an "iron resolve", the name of the chapter. Claire had it, Priscilla had it, every Claymore had it when they first showed up because they wanted to make up for what they lost. Teresa just never appeared that way because, when we saw her as a "problem child", she was older then Priscilla and had already calmed down and got into system of things. Besides, why was she a problem child to begin with? Could it be because of her parents selling her and she became brash and hated humans while Priscilla wanted to help them?

Priscilla was emotional, but she wasn't crazy; neither was Claire, neither was Teresa, neither was really anybody, except Ophelia perhaps.

Getting back on topic, you seem to forget that Teresa rarely if ever uses her unbeatable power. Yes she can use a bit of her strength to kill anyone, but when do you see her using it? She said it herself when she fought Rosemary, she rarely used it, and before she did, it looks like Rosemary might actually win. In that battle alone, was she not using solely her experience and swordsmanship? Wasn't she improving herself without having to rely on her yoma power, even if she did at the end? She's like the Ghosts; wanting to improve themselves without using their power immidiately. She uses it when it's necessary, but only when it's necessary. Other then that, she uses strictly her swordsmanship, which has improved throughout her lifetime. That Irvine, is called experience.

Sorry, how often do you think she fought against an enemy like rosemary?
i think only once. Rosemary was number one. As far as we know there were only three confirmed number one awakenings in history. Riful, Isley and luciella. Everyone was number one. Perhaps she fought 5 ab's between number 2 and number 5 in her entire career. And when we see how she got rid of rosemary it would even harder for young clare after rabona to fight yomas than for teresa to fight those single digit abs. We know that the difference between rigardo and isley was huge.
She twisted rosemary's arm off without releasing any yoki at all. At that point we can assume that she only played with her and that even the release of yoki was not obligatory necessary to beat her. I think she wanted to end this battle soon and enjoyed to scare her to the bone. This is at least an alternative but i am not sure if she needed yoki at all to beat rosemary considering what she did to the arm. The way teresa said it she could have twisted it off even if it was far stronger. The ghosts fought awakened beeings which are far more challenging for them. from yoma they could gain nothing. even ophelia disliked to fight yoma.
And the ghosts TRAINED A LOT. Running, sparring, exercising technique's. If we consider teresa's character she was in the manga clearly shown as a lazy prodigy wha had no need for this kind of training and who would not have wanted it at all. she said it herself to rosemary that she was already the strongest by far. Why then train anything despite her yoki perception. And even that seems to be inborn.
Teresa needed no yoki release to beat everyone without the slightest effort except perhaps rosemary.
So i ask you again. From WHAT could she have gained any experience which was really usefull against priscilla.
Read the post i wrote to fenrir and how many sword swings she would have done in ten years. This is only an estimation but i think it is fair and based of what we saw in the manga. You can not improve swordsmanship from that. It is far more probable that teresa has become rusty because of the lack of training over the years.

Shiek927

2009-07-08, 16:35

So i ask you again. From WHAT could she have gained any experience which was really usefull against priscilla.

Let me ask you a question:

We all know Teresa has a sort of precognition ability, my question is, so what?

This isn't like Peter Parker(Spider-Man)'s spider-sense which is not only precognition but guides him to or away from the enemy without even thinking or trying. Teresa on the other hand, doesn't have that power. Even if she can predict what her opponent is going to do, she still has to actually fight them.

And considering she doesn't use her yoma power other then in the rare occasions where she actually needs it, what excuse does she have? None, she still needs actual effort to get in there and fight, and she can't beat her opponent if she's not a good experienced fighter, and is instead a clumsy Clarice who gets her sword stuck in trees.

The problem with Teresa, is that she has SO many gifts and advantages, it feels like all she has to do is stand there to win, but she can't. Despite her yoma power, despite her precognition, she relies firstly on her swordsmanship which didn't magically get to a master level over night. She had to have fight as many battles in her lifetime to get to the level where she can use it only, without having to use her yoma power, amazing as it is, to solve her problems.

Does that mean she doesn't use her precognition? Of course not; as far as we know, it's a subconscious ability she always uses. But she doesn't rely on it; the few moments against Priscilla where she didn't increase her power show it because she was suppressed, she relied on her swordsmanship to beat her back and did. She would have chopped Priscilla's head off unless Irene showed up, a short one-on-one battle that did not use her yoma power nor her precognition ability, but her swordsmanship alone, skills that can only be gained through the magic word, experience.

Their are three things above all else with Teresa:

Swordsmanship
Precognition
Yoma Power

Any one of the three can be used to trump the opponent, especially the last two in seconds, but the first can only be gained with time and experience. In the rare cases where she doesn't use her yoma power, or precognition, like her one-on-one fight with Priscilla, she uses only her swordsmanship, something she didn't get for free.

Fenrir_valindri

2009-07-09, 13:48

To tack onto Shiek's post, I agree; despite Teresa's immense power, she still has to utilize the abilities she posses, and to do it effortlessly tells us that she has experience and has had plenty of practice with it, not that she automatically knew how to fight perfectly with or without her Yoki active or using her precog-Yoki sensing.

Teresa went through the Organizations training like any other warrior, and fought Awakened Beings and normal Yoma like any other warrior. Just because it was easier for her due to her innate abilities does not cheapen the fact she still experienced battle and still utilized her abilities (if not to their full capacity) to defeat them.

Even if we assume Teresa's best opponents outside Rosemary and Priscilla were average Awakened Beings, Teresa didn't utilize her full yoki-powered abilities to squash these individuals, and thus relied on her yoki-less power along with her skill.

Skill never comes cheaply, a prodigy may attain it faster, but they still have to have the experience to attain that level of skill.

-------

And I do want to address the point you made about Yoki in claymore generally = power. Aside from the exception of Clare (and who is to say she can be the only exception?) I'd like to point out the reverse is true as well.

The stronger you are without Yoki is directly proportional to how much Yoki you have. Thus, it is quite believable that you can measures someones strength accurately by fighting them without being able to feel how strong they are with Yoki sensing.
So Teresa's comment after exchanging blows with Priscilla is quite telling when she is unsure if she could beat her in their next encounter. Priscilla's non-Yoki strength was so great that Teresa could already tell that Priscilla would develop into a warrior that could be her equal in battle

Teresa effectively used her own yoki-less strength versus Priscilla's to come to this conclusion, and if Yoki-less strength relates directly to Yoki size/quality (which so far has been true for everyone but Clare, and even then, some have been able to detect her true ability) then the opposite can be quite true as well.

So if Teresa believed after measuring her own power against Priscilla's that Priscilla could, in the future (after she matured), become a worthy opponent, then I put a lot of stock in that.

Shiek927

2009-07-09, 14:25

:heh: hehe, for ONCE, you and me actually agree on something Fenrir :heh:

Fenrir_valindri

2009-07-09, 15:03

Lol, it isn't like we are on completely opposite sides of the fence, or mortal enemies, we just have differing opinions on certain subjects.

Shiek927

2009-07-09, 15:14

Lol, it isn't like we are on completely opposite sides of the fence, or mortal enemies, we just have differing opinions on certain subjects.

Hehe, I'm just having fun :heh::heh:

irvinethearcher

2009-07-09, 16:02

It should be clear that if rosemary indeed was AO level i win on all counts if we think that riful could wipe out 12 ABs in seconds alone and
teresa would be nearly as strong as her without yoki release beacause she twisted rosemary's arm of as if it was nothing without releasing any yoki. All this is only debatable under the questionable assumption that rosemary was between isley and rigardo.

Let me ask you a question:
We all know Teresa has a sort of precognition ability, my question is, so what?

That is exactly my point. The preemptive aura protection was useless and perhaps even lead to her downfall. So she was at the disadvantage because she had never "experienced" a fight like she had to fight against priscilla before.

None, she still needs actual effort to get in there and fight, and she can't beat her opponent if she's not a good experienced fighter, and is instead a clumsy Clarice who gets her sword stuck in trees.

You think clarice is clumsy? You are so wrong. She is simply to weak to fight with the heavy claymore. It is probably like clare whose technique was flawless with the normal sword but the sword was simply to heavy. And she is even weaker than clare as #47.
Teresa's sword would not stuck in the tree. It would simply split everything what crosses it's path except another claymore. She learned the basics like priscilla in the akademy. This seemed to be enough to slaughter rosemary.
In a translation i watched on youtube rosemary said: Why did they put this stupid kid in charge. If this is right teresa was fresh from the akademy strong enough to beat rosemary.

If we see her fight it looks like experienced swordsmanship but it looked like experienced swordsmanship too when clare fought miria at paburo mountains. Than suddenly helen said that she is pathetic and probably everyone was surprised.
If she could slaughter rosemary perhaps even without yoki release killing "normal" awakened being must have been for her as it would be for us to fight four year old girls. Look what riful did to the 12 ABs. Even if rosemary was not AO and right in the middle between rigardo and isley the experience gain from fighting even normal number 2 -5 AB would be insignificant for the fight against priscilla if we consider that she would fight such strong beings not often or even with another one or three claymores. Irene and teresa seem to knew each other so they were on a hunt together. This would mean that teresa had to lay low in order to not show the others what she was really capable of.
I am happy that at least no one says anymore that she could gain experience from fighting yoma. That is "sorry" really retarded if we think that young miata for example ripped them apart with bare hands or ophelia refused to fight them.

The problem with Teresa, is that she has SO many gifts and advantages, it feels like all she has to do is stand there to win, but she can't. Despite her yoma power, despite her precognition, she relies firstly on her swordsmanship which didn't magically get to a master level over night. She had to have fight as many battles in her lifetime to get to the level where she can use it only, without having to use her yoma power, amazing as it is, to solve her problems.

That is your point of view but i still see no battle she could have learned anything really useful against priscilla. And she had to have those battles often in order to really improve. Every year fighting one single digit AB alone would not do it. She would probably have forgotten most of what she had learned in this fight until the next fight a year later.

the few moments against Priscilla where she didn't increase her power show it because she was suppressed, she relied on her swordsmanship to beat her back and did.
Priscilla:"What's going on? I suddenly slowed down? No she is the one who sped up!" So no swordsmanship or something like that. She made the same movements as before. She only made them faster. Therefore priscilla thought first she slowed down. If teresa would have moved more efficient and made better movements, what is swordsmanship for me, priscilla would not have thought that she slowed down. So the same movements as always only faster.
Everything she had to know teresa learned already at her time during the academy. So there were probably only small improvements in her swordsmanship considering the trash she fought and her probably low effort to train and the fact that the learning curve is logarithmic.

The stronger you are without Yoki is directly proportional to how much Yoki you have. Thus, it is quite believable that you can measures someones strength accurately by fighting them without being able to feel how strong they are with Yoki sensing.
You may be right most of the time but look at the fight priscilla vs. isley. Rigardo asked himself why he feared her despite isley was superior faster and stronger. I fear it is not always that easy.

Shiek927

2009-07-09, 16:17

That is exactly my point. The preemptive aura protection was useless and perhaps even lead to her downfall. So she was at the disadvantage because she had never "experienced" a fight like she had to fight against priscilla before.

I'm confused, what "downfall"? Teresa WON that battle.

You think clarice is clumsy? You are so wrong. She is simply to weak to fight with the heavy claymore.

That's the same exact thing :heh:

She can barely handle her Claymore to kill anything, much less hold it correctly to keep it from jabbing trees. That's called being clumsy XD

Irvine, this is silly; you have your point of view, and theirs mine. It's dumb we're arguing about this. The only thing I question is why you make Priscilla so much bigger then she really was. Other then power, you make it sound like Priscilla was on Teresa's level, and in every concievable way, she wasn't, not even in power like we saw later on. Certainly not swordsmanship. You make it sound like Teresa had no experience from every single battle in her entire life, but the moment she fought Priscilla, suddenly she had difficulty. Priscilla had her suppression, but that's it. Teresa had everything else, which I listed already.

irvinethearcher

2009-07-09, 16:29

I'm confused, what "downfall"? Teresa WON that battle.

That's the same exact thing :heh:

She can barely handle her Claymore to kill anything, much less hold it correctly to keep it from jabbing trees. That's called being clumsy XD

Irvine, this is silly; you have your point of view, and theirs mine. It's dumb we're arguing about this. The only thing I question is why you make Priscilla so much bigger then she really was. Other then power, you make it sound like Priscilla was on Teresa's level, and in every concievable way, she wasn't, not even in power like we saw later on. Certainly not swordsmanship. You make it sound like Teresa had no experience from every single battle in her entire life, but the moment she fought Priscilla, suddenly she had difficulty. Priscilla had her suppression, but that's it. Teresa had everything else, which I listed already.

For the clarice thing:
It is definitely not the same thing. Read xtra4. Clare could fight well with the small sword but with the claymore she had problems. Clare is one of the most skilled fighters in claymore. Give clarice a lighter sword and her movements would be as good as those of every other warrior.
I make teresa bigger because she won the fight without a significant experience bonus only with raw talent. You know training has it's limits and it follows logarithmic rules. If X is the effort you have to put in and Y is the power you gain you can describe training as Y = log(X). The more you train the less you gain ;).
So if i say that teresa could do that without having significantly more experience as priscilla i make her bigger because she still had so many unused potential.
Why are you so certain about swordsmanship. I put effort into it and showed you priscilla's comment about slowing down and speeding up. Still totally unconvinced?

SagaraSouske

2009-07-09, 16:46

Shiek927

2009-07-09, 16:48

You guys should stop arguing about the specific point regarding Teresa's experience. It's already proven a futile argument and viewpoints are just different. Irvin and I have already gone through that in length and detail.

I already wanted to stop :heh:

It's kind of hard to argue about something when we use the exact same reasons for both our arguments.

Tempest35

2009-07-09, 20:25

Shiek927

2009-07-09, 20:28

Well it's just looking at the same problem from different angles. Ah, the great debate halls resound once more with the Teresa vs Priscilla topic...:D
This is Claymore.

Rigaldo was afraid of Devil Priscilla on an instinctual level. 'Fear the unknown'. He didn't know Priscilla other than the fact that she literally ripped him apart. He thought that Isley was superior to Priscilla but that was just becuase Isley surprised her. And even after she had Awakened, her youki wasn't focused. Her mindset prevented her from becoming the true beast that she physically is.

Tempest.......when did we mention that at all? heh :heh:

Me and Irvine are going on about Teresa and her supposed experience, I say yes, he says no. We didn't mention Rigardo, or Isley :heh:

Unless this is a debate far far back, in which case you should quote the person :heh:;):p

We're not even arguing anymore because it's pointless all things considered, especially when we apparatently use the same reasons for both our arguements.

Tempest35

2009-07-09, 22:56

irvine brought that point up in his post to Fenrir. And Fenrir's my taichou in the 'Miria Brigade' so I have to follow up on his posts. Somewhat. :heh:

irvinethearcher

2009-07-10, 14:35

I feel that the time will come when we see in clare's memorys that chibi priscilla totally owned rafaella in a yokiless sparring fight but even that would probably prove nothing:heh:

Interesting would be the following:
In a translation i watched on youtube rosemary said: Why did they put this stupid kid in charge. If this is right teresa was fresh from the akademy strong enough to beat rosemary.
In OM there is nothing mentioned that teresa was fresh from the academy. What exactly did rosemary say?
If theresa was really named by her as a "kid" this would be another hint that a claymore fresh from the academy already knows very well how to fight if she is as strong as teresa or priscilla.

irvinethearcher

2009-07-12, 14:17

Even if we assume Teresa's best opponents outside Rosemary and Priscilla were average Awakened Beings, Teresa didn't utilize her full yoki-powered abilities to squash these individuals, and thus relied on her yoki-less power along with her skill.

I have read this now the second time and thought carefully about it.
Theresa relied on yoki sensing and her brute strength(which should be S level) and speed. Even without yoki release she could twist rosemary's arm effortlessly off. She said herself that it wasn't something difficult to do for her. Probably her speed would be in the same league.
We only have not seen it (yet?). That's what i think about the speed but can not prove.
Hell, clare could make those male AB some serious trouble with her not even perfected preemptive aura protection. Despite being half-awakened she should not be nearly near teresa's strength and speed. Let's say that this AB was an "normal" ab. So what would teresa have done with it? She would have ended his life with only one strike of her sword that's for sure.
And i can give an estimation: Irene said that clare is at best only 1/10 as strong and fast as her. So considering that teresa was stronger than irene. Teresa would probably at least 10 to let's say at most 20 times as strong and fast as clare was.
So there was still no use of refining her swordsmanship. She simply evaded the ABs with her superior preemptive aura protection(that WAS her skill and it was useless against priscilla) and then she killed them with one or two strikes of her sword to their head. Clare's windcutter was unable to damage riful's body and teresa could rip an arm of an former number one apart with only her left hand. God, it was not even her sword arm.
So at least it is proven(as far as something is proveable in a fictional storry) for normal ABs and yoma that teresa could not have gained experience from fighting them.
So there are only single digit ABs who have the theoretical possibility of giving teresa some training during a fight.
Considering how infrequent she would have fought ABs near rigardo or dauff and that she would have fought them with at least another claymore from 2 - 5 i highly doubt that those fights would be really useful to make her a significantly better swordsman.

haegar

2009-07-12, 14:49

And i can give an estimation: Irene said that clare is at best only 1/10 as strong and fast as her

It is difficult to use that as an estimate for clare's momentary actual strenght though, Irene siad that "before" she gave Clare her arm. And we don't know whether with Irene's arm it then was like 2/10 or 5/10 or 9/10 of Irene's strength.

Then there is the fact that Clare's strongest release OVER limit was in pieta, much later, by that time, she had, according to Riful (witches maw) learned to use that arm pretty well, (thus maybe getting close to irene's level) plus then she gets a boost from the rigaldo fight which you can't calculate ...

So comparing theresa's and clare's strenght via Irene is difficult at best.

All you can say with some certainty is, that at the end of clare's training with irene (with her weaker left arm, and missing her main arm) she was 1/10 of irene and thus AT THAT TIME can be compared to theresa via irene ....

imho, that is :D

nonetheless I think you're right in deducing from that fact that Theresa probably got no training out of yoma or even average ABs, at all :D

irvinethearcher

2009-07-12, 14:59

It is only about paburo - clare. Paburo - clare was nearly able without releasing yoki to defeat the male ab. If she would have been stronger his head would have been fallen. But as we have seen "stronger" is no problem for teresa :heh:. This estimation is good because it shows clearly the superiority of teresa and her preemptive aura protection against awakened beings. If even weak clare could endanger an normal AB with an even not perfectly trained preemptive aura protection, teresa should have disposed them effortlessly. But priscilla was stealthed so...

haegar

2009-07-12, 15:04

yeah you're right, I just argued a bit against you since I thought the whole idea was also about comparing Theresa - CLare in a general way - which as I've come to understand by now it was not meant to compare ... so forget what I said you're right :D

btw: what's "paburo -clare" ??? :confused:

irvinethearcher

2009-07-12, 15:20

Clare in the paburo - mountains fighting the six armed ab was only half-awakened and had not irene's arm.
I am perhaps already to nerdish to explain it probably. Sorry my fault :heh:

haegar

2009-07-12, 15:22

Ah the MOUNTAINS were called paburo ... like mount zakol ^^ I forgot that, sry & thx :D

cause I understood what you were talking about, I just was beginning to wonder whether maybe I had missed the fact that that six-armed arsehole was called "paburo" xD

btw I think he was quite a bit stronger than an "average" AB, which is what miria said... makes your argument all the more convincing ...

HegemonKhan

2009-09-26, 08:28

orsay: "teresa, the most powerful woman of all time, no the most powerful monster of all time"

priscilla (rank 1) at least 80% yoki released (awakened), kills sophia (rank 3), noel (rank 4), and should've killed irene (rank 2).

awakened priscilla (80%-100% yoki released) destroys half of isley's body (abyssal one and rank 1) in a single attack

but than there's teresa.....

teresa using only 10% yoki release defeats priscilla using 75%-79% yoki release.

10n=80
n=8

teresa is 8x more powerful than priscilla !!!!! WOW !!!!!!

so how much yoki release would teresa need to defeat priscilla at 100% yoki release?

8n=100
n=100/8
n=12.5

12.5% of teresa's yoki = 100% of priscilla's yoki

teresa would only need to use 13% yoki release to kill priscilla at 100% yoki release !!!!

now let's look at rosmary....

rank 1 fully awakened rosemary and to me she certainly looks the most fearsome of all the awakened ones, including the abyssal ones, i've seen. though looks don't really mean much in CLAYMORE manga.

teresa defeats the fully awakened, 100% yoki release, (abyssal one), rank 1 rosemary with NO yoki release, snapping rosemary's arm off with just the twist of her wrist !!!!

teresa is the GOD (goddess, hehe) of CLAYMORE manga!

now imagine teresa at 100% yoki release and fully awakened.....

teresa: "Destroyer? you mean destroyED?", yawns, "that fight was so boring that i'm all sleepy now". *grins*

-------------------------

so, about teresa vs priscilla, and what really happened:

teresa is 8x more powerful than priscilla, so obviously priscilla couldn't/didn't actually beat teresa.

also, teresa was soft (due to meeting clare and remembering how to be human again. caring, loving, and being like a guardian-mother to clare), and while teresa beat priscilla THREE times thus having THREE times to kill priscilla, teresa decided not to kill priscilla all three times.

the last time teresa choose not to kill priscilla, she let her guard down (and in the anime, you can see her eyes going back from golden to silver, dropping her yoki from 10% to "0%"), which priscilla than used to decapitate teresa.

there really is no debate between teresa and priscilla. despite how incredibly powerful priscilla is, teresa is 8x more incredibly powerful!
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and about the line where teresa says that priscilla will in time become more powerful than herself:

based on all i said above, i firmly believe:

teresa was saying that with time, while (priscilla) being awakened (80%-100% yoki release), priscilla would be more powerful than teresa AT "0%" yoki release, ONLY. teresa was never saying that priscilla would be more powerful than teresa, if teresa released her yoki as well....

teresa only has few scenes where you hear the real bad-bottom hardcore cold heartless mocking-teasing teresa monster. the rosemary scene is the more clear one. you can read some really "high and mighty" mocking and teasing of rosemary by teresa. teresa is really mean and cruel ! she's the BEST / MOST POWERFUL for a reason, and she cares not for modesty...

there's a few lines (like the one i mentioned) during the priscilla scenes, but they are not easy to notice.

teresa even suggests that she's a Half Awaken, talking as if she having awakened and de-awakened, obviously keeping her human mind, and not becoming an awakened one yoma. saying to priscilla, that if a rookie like her (priscilla) tries to release 80%-100% yoki, she will awaken and be unable to de-awaken, becoming an awakened one yoma. teresa was indeed correct, as that is exactly what happened to rookie priscilla.
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and this isn't even including teresa's uber power in yoki:

teresa is so powerful in yoki, that she can detect the internal yoki movements from brain to body, allowing her (and clare who has teresa inside her) to "dodge before the yoki releasing opponent even begins to move or attack".

taking this yoki power and being 8x more powerful than priscilla, means that teresa is simply truly undefeatable.

teresa is more powerful than everyone else, and the more powerful someone else gets, the easier it is for teresa.
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further evidence of teresa's completely unrivaled power:

when teresa was just a trainee, she would ran away to the nearest town through a forest many times. there are yoma and wild animals, yet trainee teresa had nothing to fear.

during one of these "ran aways" trainee teresa encounters exiled rafaela in the forest. teresa feels rafaela's yoki despite it being near 0% and having no yoki leaking out.

i'll even daresay....

teresa actually felt rafaela's suppressed yoki from headquarters, and "ran away" to intentionally meet rafaela!

but that's pure speculation, on my part.

Cyclone

2009-09-26, 10:58

teresa is the GOD (goddess, hehe) of CLAYMORE manga!

You pass. Welcome to the club (http://forums.animesuki.com/group.php?groupid=51).

there really is no debate between teresa and priscilla. despite how incredibly powerful priscilla is, teresa is 8x more incredibly powerful!

Oh - you'd be surprised. (You're new here, eh?)
The whole reason this thread exists is because of of a seemingly endless debates popping up every between people like us, and infidels to our goddess.

teresa is 8x more powerful than priscilla, so obviously priscilla couldn't/didn't actually beat teresa.

That's the thing with Claymore, isn't it... Coulda, woulda, shoulda.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and about the line where teresa says that priscilla will in time become more powerful than herself:

based on all i said above, i firmly believe:

teresa was saying that with time, while (priscilla) being awakened (80%-100% yoki release), priscilla would be more powerful than teresa AT "0%" yoki release, ONLY. teresa was never saying that priscilla would be more powerful than teresa, if teresa released her yoki as well....

teresa only has few scenes where you hear the real bad-bottom hardcore cold heartless mocking-teasing teresa monster. the rosemary scene is the more clear one. you can read some really "high and mighty" mocking and teasing of rosemary by teresa. teresa is really mean and cruel ! she's the BEST / MOST POWERFUL for a reason, and she cares not for modesty...

there's a few lines (like the one i mentioned) during the priscilla scenes, but they are not easy to notice.

teresa even suggests that she's a Half Awaken, talking as if she having awakened and de-awakened, obviously keeping her human mind, and not becoming an awakened one yoma. saying to priscilla, that if a rookie like her (priscilla) tries to release 80%-100% yoki, she will awaken and be unable to de-awaken, becoming an awakened one yoma. teresa was indeed correct, as that is exactly what happened to rookie priscilla.

There are a bunch of different ways to interpret this.
One way I like to think about it, is that youki levels might not be constant. Older warriors might get an increase or something. Certainly, even if we exclude half awakens, then Claymores like Yuma are still much stronger with the passage of time than they were in Pieta. Likewise a one armed Irene pwned Ophellie so bad that the former #2 made a mockery of a fairly solid #4 (I don't think it should have been THAT one sided).

Maybe, in time, Priscilla would start to approach Teresa style power levels.

In any event, there's simply too much we don't know about youki and youki levels to be drawing too many firm conclusions.

(a small correction - Teresa did do a 10% release to beat Rosemary [though she might have not needed to])

teresa actually felt rafaela's suppressed yoki from headquarters, and "ran away" to intentionally meet rafaela!

but that's pure speculation, on my part.

The links between Raphaela and Teresa are one of my favorite things to speculate about recently too. The meeting could have been accidentaly though - the trainer made it clear that Teresa was being true to form and this was not the first time she had done this.
I think there could well have been further encounters though. Teresa's suspicions of the Organization could have come from Raphaela. It's only natural Teresa would take a liking to Raphaela since she had powers as close to her own as anyone she had ever met.
I expect that the one of the reasons for Clare meeting Raphaela before she became "the destroyer" was to give her some memories of Teresa and Raphaela. I'd love to see a few more Flashbacks into Raphaela's and Teresa's history like this. There had to be a reason why Yagi spent several pages making a point that Teresa and Raphaela had indeed met before, right?

HegemonKhan

2009-09-26, 12:04

You pass. Welcome to the club (http://forums.animesuki.com/group.php?groupid=51).

Oh - you'd be surprised. (You're new here, eh?)
The whole reason this thread exists is because of of a seemingly endless debates popping up every between people like us, and infidels to our goddess.

That's the thing with Claymore, isn't it... Coulda, woulda, shoulda.

There are a bunch of different ways to interpret this.
One way I like to think about it, is that youki levels might not be constant. Older warriors might get an increase or something. Certainly, even if we exclude half awakens, then Claymores like Yuma are still much stronger with the passage of time than they were in Pieta. Likewise a one armed Irene pwned Ophellie so bad that the former #2 made a mockery of a fairly solid #4 (I don't think it should have been THAT one sided).

Maybe, in time, Priscilla would start to approach Teresa style power levels.

In any event, there's simply too much we don't know about youki and youki levels to be drawing too many firm conclusions.

(a small correction - Teresa did do a 10% release to beat Rosemary [though she might have not needed to])

The links between Raphaela and Teresa are one of my favorite things to speculate about recently too. The meeting could have been accidentaly though - the trainer made it clear that Teresa was being true to form and this was not the first time she had done this.
I think there could well have been further encounters though. Teresa's suspicions of the Organization could have come from Raphaela. It's only natural Teresa would take a liking to Raphaela since she had powers as close to her own as anyone she had ever met.
I expect that the one of the reasons for Clare meeting Raphaela before she became "the destroyer" was to give her some memories of Teresa and Raphaela. I'd love to see a few more Flashbacks into Raphaela's and Teresa's history like this. There had to be a reason why Yagi spent several pages making a point that Teresa and Raphaela had indeed met before, right?

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"One way I like to think about it, is that youki levels might not be constant." -cyclone

actually this is explained...

yoki can be used to enhance the yoma power. this is galatea's unique ability.

"the rate at which my power rises with the release of my yoki is the greatest of all the claymores. i'm sorry but you'll have to deal with my ugly face.."

for example, let me try to explain....

for a normal (or base) claymore:

starting power of 1 x 10% yoki release X1 factor= 10 yoma power

now let's take galatea, and let's pretend galatea same the same starting power as the normal claymore:

using her yoki, galatea (example only) raises the factor from X1 to X10, so....

starting power of 1 x 10% yoki release X10 factor= 100 yoma power

galatea in this example has yoma power at 100 despite having the same equal starting power.

(unfortunately, galatea's starting or natural power isn't too high....)

(imagine if teresa could use her yoki to do what galatea can....as if teresa needs more power though, lol)
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"Certainly, even if we exclude half awakens, then Claymores like Yuma are still much stronger with the passage of time than they were in Pieta." -cyclone

the yoki suppression and training for 7 years made the ghosts of the north very powerful. this is due to not being able to use their yoki, so they had to learn to use their yoma power and abilities without any yoki. And should they, now release their yoki, after being so much stronger now, they'll be even more strong with their yoki released!

for example...

from the 7 years of training to do the windcutter with no yoki release, clare got powerful enough to slice the ("promiscuisciousness" or a shorter word for such a female person) out of rank 2 agatha, killing her with EASE using a no yoki release windcutter.

than against rafaela's image in the mind-dream world or illusion (i'm not sure if the image is as powerful as the real rafaela), clare was able to beat "rafaela" (well her image) who accoding to rubel was equal in power to ABYSSAL ONE luciela with releasing her yoki (it doesn't tell/show how much though) and using her quick sword.
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"Likewise a one armed Irene pwned Ophellie so bad that the former #2 made a mockery of a fairly solid #4 (I don't think it should have been THAT one sided)." -cyclone

about irene's, clare's, and ophelia's power at this point in the manga:

right before irene gave clare her arm:

clare's quick sword (with her left NON-sword arm, which is kinda unfair for clare) was only 1/10 in both speed and power to irene's quick sword (with her right SWORD arm, which is unfair to compare to clare having to use her NON-sowrd arm)

after clare got irene's right sword arm:

clare's quick sword (with irene's right arm) was still only 1/2 or 5/10 in both speed and power to irene's quick sword (when she still had her right arm).

which is enough to kill ophelia with some further help (motivation) with using the quick sword from ophelia herself.

as you can see, there's a huge jump in power from one rank to the next, the closer you get to rank 1.

the real power is rank 1-5. there's a huge gap in power between rank 6 and rank 5. That gap in power grows exponentially between rank 5 and rank 4. etc.. etc.. The gap between a rank 2 and a rank 1 is unimaginable. despite being rank 2, the rank 2 is NO WHERE near the power of a rank 1. there's so many examples...teresa (well teresa is a bit unfair, as she's just not a rank 1 but the most powerful being of all time) defeating all 4 (priscilla, irene, sophia, noel) at the same time, priscilla compared to irene, isley compared to rigard, riful compared to duph, and etc....

irene's quick sword is still twice as fast and powerful than even when clare is using irene's arm, because irene is still twice as powerful as clare is even when clare has the power of irene's arm.

also irene isn't releasing any yoki as well.

in fact, like teresa, we never see irene using 50% yoki (body changes). i'm not sure if irene (and the 3 others while in town) used 30% yoki (face changes) against teresa, or not. i can't tell.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Maybe, in time, Priscilla would start to approach Teresa style power levels." -cyclone

NEVER

teresa is AT LEAST x8 more powerful than priscilla. teresa only needs to release 13% yoki to kill 100% yoki releasing fully awakened priscilla.

imagine the OVERKILL teresa would do to priscilla if she-teresa, released 100% yoki and were fully awakened........

Teresa... at 100% yoki release and fully awakened... grrr, i shoulda put on a diaper before i started thinking about this.... !!!!!

simple as that.

priscilla at 100% yoki release and fully awakened CAN (has the potential to) "surpass" teresa at "0%" yoki release, however.... lol
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"(a small correction - Teresa did do a 10% release to beat Rosemary [though she might have not needed to])" -cyclone

you already have my response in the same sentence...... except i'd change it slightly to this:

"though she might have not needed to" -cyclone. -> "Teresa DID defeat rosemary with NO yoki release" -HK

using no yoki release, teresa merely twists her wrist, snapping off the arm of an abyssal one. I say that right there, is a defeated rosemary, heck, even rosemary knew she was (censored) at this point.

yes, teresa did THEN release her yoki, but ONLY to have "fun" and/or "practice" since she almost never gets the occasion to use her true power, due to the organization finding it out and simply never being an opponent where she needed to.

**Teresa coulda used having the Destroyer around so at least she'd have a somewhat decent sparring partner, lol.**
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The links between Raphaela and Teresa are one of my favorite things to speculate about recently too. The meeting could have been accidentaly though - the trainer made it clear that Teresa was being true to form and this was not the first time she had done this.
I think there could well have been further encounters though. Teresa's suspicions of the Organization could have come from Raphaela. It's only natural Teresa would take a liking to Raphaela since she had powers as close to her own as anyone she had ever met.
I expect that the one of the reasons for Clare meeting Raphaela before she became "the destroyer" was to give her some memories of Teresa and Raphaela. I'd love to see a few more Flashbacks into Raphaela's and Teresa's history like this. There had to be a reason why Yagi spent several pages making a point that Teresa and Raphaela had indeed met before, right?" -cyclone

here's an old really "crazy" idea that i once had.... though maybe you'd appreicate it....

could it be...???????

did Teresa's parents hear about the "Twin Goddess of Love" from Rafaela ???

because, Teresa was named after one of the "Twin Goddesses of Love" by her parents.

is there any kind of connection between Teresa, Teresa's parents, and Rafaela....??

Then extremely eerily, Teresa goes to name little Clare after the other "Twin Goddess of Love", only to find out that Clare had already been given that very name by her parents.

Is there any connection between Clare and Clare's parents and Teresa, Teresa's parents, and Rafaela ?????

Rafaela (+luciela) "becomes" the Destroyer

the Destroyer's form (body) is that of the "Twin Goddesses of Love"

is there any connection between the Destroyer and Clare, Clare's parents, Teresa, Teresa's parents, and Rafaela ????

and here is a possible connection between clare and rafaela:

I think rafaela recognizes clare's love for teresa, just as she (rafaela) has for her sister (luciela). They both merged (clare with teresa and rafaela with luciela) out of love in order to save them. Rafaela and clare both share the same "bond of love", hmm what else has love in it, "Twin Goddesses of LOVE"..... hmm.....

haegar

2009-09-26, 13:38

where did it say that clare had already been named clare by her parents ? I can't remember her parents being mentioned at all :confused:

you are building up a fine mathematical logic there, but sadly yagi may possibly not do the same before tellin the story - so as well it may be concieved and thought through, still no guarantee it's exactly like that, as cyclone remarked, it's difficult to draw "firm" conclusions - although I do agree that prissy will never get quite to theresa's level ;). Though I have to admit, my formula for this looks different: gut feeling. that's it :D

HegemonKhan

2009-09-26, 14:37

that (the section at the very bottom of my above post) was only some really old views i once had.....

clare, was indeed already named clare.. BEFORE teresa choose her name.... "coincidentally"....

i presume that's what her parents named her.

and clare also had a brother, who along with her parents were killed by the first yoma, which an unnamed claymore killed.

but clare was never taken by slave traders to the organization to become a claymore, instead she became the "toy" of another yoma, which was killed by teresa.... and we know the rest....

-Sho-

2009-09-26, 14:44

"what really happened?"

Hum ... just Priscilla who killed Teresa nothing more ...
Priscilla tricked her so Teresa was in disadvatange then K.O !

HegemonKhan

2009-09-26, 14:51

also one other thing i noticed......

about priscilla:

before she released her yoki, and was taken over by her yoma mind:

priscilla was an honorable fighter.

she coulda attacked clare from behind when teresa jumped out of the inn room's window with clare in her arms, but she didn't.

she despised doing a 4v1 teresa.

and than priscilla released her yoki to 75%-79%, than 80%.... and she couldn't turn back, she was becoming an awakened one:

and what did she with her now yoma mind do?......

she used a cheap shot, lying about wanting to die as a human, waiting for teresa to let down her guard.... CLEAVE, dead teresa....

completely different from when she was still a claymore and human-minded....

two completely different "people" and behaviors, priscilla the claymore with a human mind and priscilla the yoma/awakened one/abyssal one with her yoma mind.....
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

another great example, of this, is with luciela having her "short reunion" with rafaela.

you never see what luciela was like with a human mind, but you can look at rafaela for the same effect.

anyways, rafaela at first thought that luciela really missed her and wanted to see her and almost beleived luciela too.... but than luciela starts talking about rafaela joining her and helping her finish off isley, and saying she'll let rafaela have some of the land they'll conquer together....

needless to say, this clearly showed rafaela, that her sister luciela, was indeed gone (awakened. yoma mind. her human mind was gone-dead-no more). rafaela squeezed tighter and crushed-killed luciela...

irvinethearcher

2009-09-26, 16:14

Yuma are still much stronger with the passage of time than they were in Pieta
don't forget that yuma went through excessive training which claymores normally not do that way and that long.

About theresa saying that she may beat priscilla now but the next time who knows...
We shouldn't forget that priscilla was stealthed when teresa said that. After priscilla released her yoki theresa sounded more confident and said something like:
1. As things are now you can not beat me. And: You can come after me as often as you like, i will cut you down every single time!
Two ways of interpretation:
1. Now is this day, this fight but not the future
2. Priscilla will never be able to beat her because she has not enough yoki which teresa could estimate now correctly because priscilla finally released it. She will be unable to beat her even if she trains a lot and gets older.(I prefer that;) )

yoki can be used to enhance the yoma power. this is galatea's unique ability.
Galatea has one of the biggest factors by which yoki boosts strength and speed and perhaps endurance. Every claymore has such a factor. Galatea's seems to be just bigger than the most of them. So the amount of yoki alone is not everything.
If theresa's factor was insanely strong it would explain that teresa could easily defeat priscilla even IF she really possessed more yoki

yes, teresa did THEN release her yoki, but ONLY to have "fun" and/or "practice" since she almost never gets the occasion to use her true power, due to the organization finding it out and simply never being an opponent where she needed to.
Perhaps she simply wanted to scare rosemary before she died. Simply by showing her how much of a monster she(teresa) really was. She liked to scare people. She scared those in the town with her theories about yoma and the organisation, she scared the poor bastard who wanted to bring her food to her chamber with sticking her claymore through that wooden door and she kicked clare. Perhaps this scaring of people was a mechanism to stay alone and not wanting someone near her anymore. But as we know this didn't work out with clare because clare saw through that camouflage.

Teresa's suspicions of the Organization could have come from Raphaela. It's only natural Teresa would take a liking to Raphaela since she had powers as close to her own as anyone she had ever met.
I expect that the one of the reasons for Clare meeting Raphaela before she became "the destroyer" was to give her some memories of Teresa and Raphaela. I'd love to see a few more Flashbacks into Raphaela's and Teresa's history like this. There had to be a reason why Yagi spent several pages making a point that Teresa and Raphaela had indeed met before, right?
If rafaella gave clare new memories about theresa this could be good for a reconstruction of theresa's mind. The more memories clare has the better teresa's consciousness can be reconstructed. At least my pet theory. I somehow think that we have not seen everything about theresa ;) I think that teresa gave clare her premptive aura protection in that dream. Perhaps clare was simply able to reconstruct that part of her consciousness who knows. I wonder if clare's mistake is really about taking revenge. Perhaps her mistake is more about trying to take revenge instead of trying to revive teresa? Yagi was often able to surprise us and he needed about 40(?) chapters until he let miria's biggest secret out of the bag. Rafaella knew more about souls and hidden consciousness than any other claymore except alicia and beth. IMO if someone knows how to revive theresa it is rafaella.
I think it is safe to say that she never released yoki so that the spirit of luciella still stayed inside of her. Perhaps she wanted to do the impossible - turning luciella back, killing the awakened personality and infusing the dead body with luciella's old soul and reviving her as a claymore. But perhaps she acted more instinctively driven by the wish to see her sis again and by her love than by calculation.

HegemonKhan

2009-09-26, 19:46

don't forget that yuma went through excessive training which claymores normally not do that way and that long.

About theresa saying that she may beat priscilla now but the next time who knows...
We shouldn't forget that priscilla was stealthed when teresa said that. After priscilla released her yoki theresa sounded more confident and said something like:
1. As things are now you can not beat me. And: You can come after me as often as you like, i will cut you down every single time!
Two ways of interpretation:
1. Now is this day, this fight but not the future
2. Priscilla will never be able to beat her because she has not enough yoki which teresa could estimate now correctly because priscilla finally released it. She will be unable to beat her even if she trains a lot and gets older.(I prefer that;) )

Galatea has one of the biggest factors by which yoki boosts strength and speed and perhaps endurance. Every claymore has such a factor. Galatea's seems to be just bigger than the most of them. So the amount of yoki alone is not everything.
If theresa's factor was insanely strong it would explain that teresa could easily defeat priscilla even IF she really possessed more yoki

Perhaps she simply wanted to scare rosemary before she died. Simply by showing her how much of a monster she(teresa) really was. She liked to scare people. She scared those in the town with her theories about yoma and the organisation, she scared the poor bastard who wanted to bring her food to her chamber with sticking her claymore through that wooden door and she kicked clare. Perhaps this scaring of people was a mechanism to stay alone and not wanting someone near her anymore. But as we know this didn't work out with clare because clare saw through that camouflage.

If rafaella gave clare new memories about theresa this could be good for a reconstruction of theresa's mind. The more memories clare has the better teresa's consciousness can be reconstructed. At least my pet theory. I somehow think that we have not seen everything about theresa ;) I think that teresa gave clare her premptive aura protection in that dream. Perhaps clare was simply able to reconstruct that part of her consciousness who knows. I wonder if clare's mistake is really about taking revenge. Perhaps her mistake is more about trying to take revenge instead of trying to revive teresa? Yagi was often able to surprise us and he needed about 40(?) chapters until he let miria's biggest secret out of the bag. Rafaella knew more about souls and hidden consciousness than any other claymore except alicia and beth. IMO if someone knows how to revive theresa it is rafaella.
I think it is safe to say that she never released yoki so that the spirit of luciella still stayed inside of her. Perhaps she wanted to do the impossible - turning luciella back, killing the awakened personality and infusing the dead body with luciella's old soul and reviving her as a claymore. But perhaps she acted more instinctively driven by the wish to see her sis again and by her love than by calculation.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

"As things are now you can not beat me. And: You can come after me as often as you like, i will cut you down every single time!" irvinethearcher

this actually refers to teresa's unique ability (ONLY teresa, and now clare can do this) to read the internal flows of the yoki, allowing her (and clare) to "dodge before the enemy even begins to move or attack".

the more yoki an opponent releases the more it reduces its chance to win against teresa. this single ability of teresa, gives teresa victory before the battle ever begins with against an awakened one, abyssal one, or especially the Destroyer.

the only way to beat teresa, is to be a Half Awaken and kill teresa before teresa releases her own yoki..... because once teresa releases her yoki, nothing can come anywhere near competing with teresa.

clare has this ability too, but she still isn't at teresa's level with it, nor is clare probably anywhere near teresa's power.....
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Galatea has one of the biggest factors by which yoki boosts strength and speed and perhaps endurance. Every claymore has such a factor. Galatea's seems to be just bigger than the most of them. So the amount of yoki alone is not everything.
If theresa's factor was insanely strong it would explain that teresa could easily defeat priscilla even IF she really possessed more yoki" -irvinethearcher

see this thread for my response:

[Jap-Manga] Claymore Statistics, Power Levels, and Theories
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Perhaps she simply wanted to scare rosemary before she died. Simply by showing her how much of a monster she(teresa) really was. She liked to scare people. She scared those in the town with her theories about yoma and the organisation, she scared the poor bastard who wanted to bring her food to her chamber with sticking her claymore through that wooden door and she kicked clare. Perhaps this scaring of people was a mechanism to stay alone and not wanting someone near her anymore. But as we know this didn't work out with clare because clare saw through that camouflage." irvinethearcher

teresa certainly enjoyed "scaring" (as you put it), mocking, teasing, and playing with those weaker than her (which was everyone). Teresa was a real "stuck up Censored". But, teresa was able to back up her "high and mighty" behavior with "high and mighty" actual POWER....so everyone just had to put up with cruelly boastful-bragging-teasing-mocking-"scaring" teresa.....

Teresa was a "BAMF'er" and she never missed an opportunity to cruelly rub it into anyone.

*however very very few individuals knew teresa's true power, except the dead, because teresa knew the organization was corrupt and wanted to keep many secrets about herself from the organization, especially her true power. the organization knew she was strong, but they had no idea just how strong she really was.... they thought priscilla was stronger.... HAH, we saw that, that wasn't the case. teresa kicked priscilla's (censored) 3 TIMES ! without ever exceeding 10% yoki and priscilla was using up to at least 80% yoki (the last engagement with teresa, before she cut off teresa's head not by beating teresa, but by teresa's generous mercy and foolish softness, all thanks to clare) !

*in fact, the ONLY living individuals who knew teresa's true GODDESSHOOD power are Clare and Priscilla, and irene for a time (until rafaela found and killed her).

*NOT even Rubel, knew !!! And that's saying something !!! Rubel didn't know something ??? (HK has a PRETEND heart attack, i'm NOT really dead, lol)

*well, maybe that's going too far... maybe rubel did know, and that's why he stayed WELL CLEAR of teresa. in fact i don't ever recall seeing him in the teresa arc, ever, except at the very end with little clare carrying teresa's head running up to rubel lol. rubel only had the bravery-courage to appear in the teresa arc, once teresa was dead, lol. shows you how frighteningly powerful teresa was to keep rubel out of an entire arc while teresa was alive....

Cyclone

2009-09-26, 23:36

"what really happened?"

Hum ... just Priscilla who killed Teresa nothing more ...
Priscilla tricked her so Teresa was in disadvatange then K.O !

If you knew all the trouble we went through to get this thread, you'd understand and not scoff it. Heck - I got my first and only official warning arguing with a mod pointing out reasons why their seemingly endless series of vetos on a topic discussing the "Priscilla vs Teresa" fight was a bad idea (yes, I'm still bitter about it, and continue to think it was unjust... still waiting for that review of the case promised by the animesuki rules). The original idea was - and still is - to discuss the implications of the fight rather than stating the obvious facts (and to move what was a regularly occuring argument out of the monthly thread into a new one). It was through chiba's heroic efforts we managed to get this thread at all.

The Priscilla vs Teresa fight is central to the plot as it's the major influence on the protagonist. Will Clare fight Priscilla? If Clare and Priscilla fight, will Clare make the same choice as Teresa and spare her?
Teresa is also the source of Clare's power. Understanding who is stronger thus gives us some idea of whether Clare can beat Priscilla.

So, since you stated the obvious so succinctly, what's your opinion on the broader implications of the fight?

naruto8001360

2009-09-27, 05:17

in ep 26 the 1/4 claymore clare defeated Priscilla. its obvious that teresa would've kicked Priscilla ass

Cyclone

2009-09-27, 10:40

There are only 22 episodes in the Claymore anime. What are you talking about? :p

HegemonKhan

2009-09-27, 12:53

the anime....

i really like priscilla's "image" in the anime.... she's the LEAST flat-chested girl in it... (episode 26, about ~half way though it, after clare defeated her and she's on all fours...) *grins naughtily*

and i'm messed up, but i like her purple and pink skin yoma bodies too... though in her final giantess pink form.... only her muscles grew with her size... which ruined her chest...quite ugly...ewww! but her dairyair (can't spell) is very nice :D though doesn't even come close to clare's dairyair... now that's HAWT :D

well enough perverted silliness...

i really wished that final fight was longer... or at least a better way of finishing off the fight... really a let down.... clare recovers from falling, jumps back up past priscilla coming down at her, and than fall back down at prsiclla below her flash swording priscilla to peices... LAME LAME LAME LAME LAME... that is NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT how you end the final battle scene in hardcore CLAYMORE.

(though in fairness, i thought it was way cool how clare threw the rock at priscilla floating way too high up in the air for clare to reach, using the smashed rock by pricilla, as stepping stones to attack priscilla way up in the air. very easy to miss...but i was glued to the screen from episode 1 to episode 26, hehe. i also loved how clare hyper speed pinball-smashed attack priscilla...and priscilla couldn't do anything but jump up into the air and float above clare, who has no wings to reach her. wished the quality woulda been better though and the action slowed cuz it looked too blurry though, cries...)

-Sho-

2009-09-27, 13:52

Well , if Clare did like in the anime , she'll fight with Priscilla and try to kill her .
Obviously you can see that she want a revenge . But Raki will interfere .

Well , in the manga , dunno if currently Clare is stronger than Priscilla because maybe Priscilla was training with Raki and the abyssal .
It'll be a great battle though .
But i really think that Raki will stop them .

HegemonKhan

2009-09-27, 14:09

just wondered something about this as i read it....

does anyone think that raki will get killed (on/by accident of course, i'd hope i mean if he was to get killed by one of them i'd hope it be by accident i'm not hoping that he does get killed by on of them though, lol) by one of them (clare or priscilla) as he tries to stop them from fighting (if this does happen) ?

just interested/curious if anyone thinks that yagi might have raki ending up getting killed by one of them in this situation or whatever situation you want ?

how likely that yagi would have clare or priscilla killing off raki at some point in the manga, or is this too cruel? ... lol

irvinethearcher

2009-09-27, 15:19

"As things are now you can not beat me. And: You can come after me as often as you like, i will cut you down every single time!" irvinethearcher

this actually refers to teresa's unique ability (ONLY teresa, and now clare can do this) to read the internal flows of the yoki, allowing her (and clare) to "dodge before the enemy even begins to move or attack".

I don't think that she was referring to her preemptive aura protection. I think theresa meant her overall strength and not only the overestimated preemptive aura protection. This skill has his flaws: It is useless against someone like rafaella or the feeders, clare couldn`t use it against ophelia and it was useless most of the time against priscilla and perhaps even led to theresa's downfall because she wasn't used to only rely on her five senses and so she fell for priscilla's sneak attack while priscilla was releasing so much yoki that theresa couldn`t read the minuscule details of the flow which imo IS preemptive aura protection. I think that theresa showed in her fight against priscilla that she was able to handle priscilla without using her jedi skills simply by moving faster than the suppressed priscill could do.

HegemonKhan

2009-09-27, 19:03

aye... you're right, teresa could be simply referencing her true power, or the unique ability like i said, or even both, lol.

i got my own speculation on this...

1. clare still isn't as proficient as teresa (duh, lol). i think teresa can surely use this ability of hers much much much better than clare can as of yet. i mean it IS teresa's ability... so she should be able to use it much better than clare can.....

2. as to teresa saying she can no longer read the flows of near awakened priscilla, i think this is merely only at 0% yoki release.

3. i believe that yoki can be used to enchance the ability to "pre-empt read internal yoki movements" and teresa can/is able to do this with her yoki.

4. clare would have a problem with this (well at least back when she was fighting the male awakened being with miria, helen, deneve), since at least at this time, she couldn't sense/feel/read the "pre-empt read internal yoki movements" while releasing her own.

5. i doubt that teresa has this problem. teresa can release her yoki, and use it to make her "pre-empt read internal yoki movements" more powerful enabling her to read/feel/sense priscilla again, while still able to do so despite her own yoki having been released.

zato_1one

2009-09-28, 03:22

There are only 22 episodes in the Claymore anime. What are you talking about? :p

LOL :heh: That's true.

I admit that MADHOUSE is very good at manga adaptation but it is also very bad at anime original. :D

naruto8001360

2009-09-28, 07:26

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claymore_(manga)
there're 26 ep man and i've watched them all

zato_1one

2009-09-28, 08:43

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claymore_(manga)
there're 26 ep man and i've watched them all

That was just sarcastic because the last part in the anime wasn't derived from manga. ;)

naruto8001360

2009-09-28, 09:36

ahha
i have a question?
why did they stop making it? i mean the anime!!!!

Shiek927

2009-09-28, 10:57

ahha
i have a question?
why did they stop making it? i mean the anime!!!!

They didn't stop making it, they finished it.

naruto8001360

2009-09-28, 11:09

but the manga still going?!!!!!
they can make it anime

Shiek927

2009-09-28, 11:50

but the manga still going?!!!!!
they can make it anime

All but impossible, they already made the anime and screwed it up, so either they make it that it erases the messed-up parts, or another company gets the rights and makes an entirely new one.

Either choice I find unlikely to happen; the company has to have genuine interest in the manga and make the anime the best they can: even at the time the anime was going, it still had enough material to follow past Pieta but they completely diverged. I find it more likely they just didn't care and wanted to make a rushed ending so they can move onto something else.

Ryus

2009-09-28, 12:38

but the manga still going?!!!!!
they can make it anime

They stopped making the anime because at the time they finished it they only had at max ten or so episodes worth of episodes based on the manga. In short the anime had caught up to the manga but the manga wasn't at a good stopping point and was coming out too slow for more episodes that were released on a weekly basis... So the morons making the anime decided to redo Pieta to end the anime at a "good stop point". Instead of ending the story with a chance of continuation, they killed the story... at least it wasn't as bad as Watchmen the movie.

naruto8001360

2009-09-28, 16:53

they messed up in the last ep in the anime
why did they change the story line???
back to teresa and priscilla
the way teresa died is ridiculous, i mean she fought well but in the end losed her guard!!!????
i hate wrote the script.

Shiek927

2009-09-28, 18:41

Ryus

2009-09-28, 18:48

.....Umm........That was in the manga too :confused:

I think he means that Teresa looked back at Clare in the anime but not in the manga... but I'm not too sure myself. :eyespin:

Elandyll

2009-09-28, 19:09

As I have said in the past, if they feel there is an interest in doing so ($$ speaking), they absolutely can either re-make the serie, or make a "Reset" episode that restarts at the point where they started diverging from the manga storyline (when Raki saw Priscilla eating a human, which isn't that far from the end. Episode 21 if memory serves).

Call it a Claymore episode 21' X-reset if you like :)

Then we'd have episode 22' to 26', and then our second season (or they could wrap season 1 in 24 episodes with 21' to 24', ending jsut before the 7 year gap).

Shiek927

2009-09-28, 19:38

I think he means that Teresa looked back at Clare in the anime but not in the manga... but I'm not too sure myself. :eyespin:

I think what he's trying to say is, he just didn't like that scene.

But the way he said it...it almost sounds like he thinks the anime came before the manga or something :twitch:

clarakiss~

2009-09-28, 19:52

Shiek927

2009-09-28, 19:57

in the anime, the prissy and clare fight was quite lame. it was hard for me to take in the fact that a half-awakened clare could defeat a fully awakened priscilla. i hope the manga version doesn't disappoint and not go in the same direction as the anime. who truly believes a fully awakened prissy could get beat by a half-awakened clare? i don't. u.u sorry i just had to get that off my shoulders. lol :p

Even worse, Priscilla has this really strange super-transformation of sorts which was ridiculous. Is this Dragon Ball Z? Does she have a third form where she grows a rocket launcher out her butt? :eyespin:

I can take fully-awakening beating her, but anything else just doesn't make any sense.

clarakiss~

2009-09-28, 20:08

Even worse, Priscilla has this really strange super-transformation of sorts which was ridiculous. Is this Dragon Ball Z? Does she have a third form where she grows a rocket launcher out her butt? :eyespin:

I can take fully-awakening beating her, but anything else just doesn't make any sense.

i practically threw up in my mouth after seeing how it ended. madhouse must have watch too much dbz battle fights when they did the last anime fight. i'm surpise they didn't include goku's signature move, the 'kamehameha' for clare and prissy to use. u.u lol

Shiek927

2009-09-28, 20:17

i practically threw up in my mouth after seeing how it ended. madhouse must have watch too much dbz battle fights when they did the last anime fight. i'm surpise they didn't include goku's signature move, the 'kamehameha' for clare and prissy to use. u.u lol

They did include a volcano which just happened to be exploding at the same time that shot up like fireworks and music seemingly straight out of final fantasy :eyebrow:.

They were in a real rush to get the anime over with and do something else 0_0.

clarakiss~

2009-09-28, 20:24

They were in a real rush to get the anime over with and do something else 0_0.

ur right about one thing, shieky. 'they were in a rush to get the anime over with.' that part is so true. lol :p

Shiek927

2009-09-28, 20:26

ur right about one thing, shieky. 'they were in a rush to get the anime over with.' that part is so true. lol :p

Tell me about it;

Long before the ending ever happened, you get this weird feeling that the animators were bored and was looking for some excuse to work on something else, which is kind of sad :heh:

Idiots :heh:

zato_1one

2009-09-28, 23:11

If Claymore will ever become anime again. My best bet is OVA.

Woot! This is my 1000th post. :heehee:

naruto8001360

2009-09-29, 05:06

.....Umm........That was in the manga too :confused:

I think he means that Teresa looked back at Clare in the anime but not in the manga... but I'm not too sure myself. :eyespin:

I think what he's trying to say is, he just didn't like that scene.

But the way he said it...it almost sounds like he thinks the anime came before the manga or something :twitch:

heheh u all confused.
all i meant is i wanted teresa to take a big role in the anime.
i mean she the strongest claymore ever and yet she was defeated by number 2 priscilla!!!!?

Shiek927

2009-09-29, 11:11

heheh u all confused.
all i meant is i wanted teresa to take a big role in the anime.
i mean she the strongest claymore ever and yet she was defeated by number 2 priscilla!!!!?

She does have a big role; it's because of her that Claire is who she is today.

And what's hard to swallow about being beat by Priscilla?

TheNumberThree

2009-09-29, 11:21

in the anime, the prissy and clare fight was quite lame. it was hard for me to take in the fact that a half-awakened clare could defeat a fully awakened priscilla. i hope the manga version doesn't disappoint and not go in the same direction as the anime. who truly believes a fully awakened prissy could get beat by a half-awakened clare? i don't. u.u sorry i just had to get that off my shoulders. lol :p

what i thought was even worse was how priscilla seriously injured ilena, and effortlessly killed noel and sofia, yet when helen and deneve flank her nothing :rolleyes:
*just a side note: not that i wanted helen or deneve to die, but of all the inconsistencies in those last few episodes that one struck me the most

HegemonKhan

2009-09-29, 17:21

priscilla is not rank 2......everyone... priscilla is rank 1 !!!!!!

seriously.. let me try to explain....

irene is rank 2, yet priscilla is FAR FAR FAR more powerful than irene... i think that makes priscilla rank 1.

and to address the "official rank" bs......

teresa just violated the ironclad rule, which is like commiting treason against the organization and turning traitor.

why does teresa still keep her rank 1, when she is to be executed, and priscilla is given rank 2, which bumps irene to rank 3, sophia to rank 4, noel to rank 5, elda to rank 6 ?

i mean teresa is no longer an official claymore of the organization, she has gone rogue. why does she still keep her rank 1 and priscilla is given rank 2.... makes no sense...

and soo...

PRISCILLA IS RANK 1, irene is still rank 2, sophia is still rank 3, noel is still rank 4 and they are to execute the traitor Teresa.

pretty simple...

PRISCILLA IS RANK 1 !!!!!

greyhame6

2009-09-29, 18:57

why does teresa still keep her rank 1, when she is to be executed, and priscilla is given rank 2, which bumps irene to rank 3, sophia to rank 4, noel to rank 5, elda to rank 6 ?

i mean teresa is no longer an official claymore of the organization, she has gone rogue. why does she still keep her rank 1 and priscilla is given rank 2.... makes no sense...

and soo...

PRISCILLA IS RANK 1, irene is still rank 2, sophia is still rank 3, noel is still rank 4 and they are to execute the traitor Teresa.

pretty simple...

PRISCILLA IS RANK 1 !!!!!

teresa was never stripped of her rank like rafaela was. the execution order was perhaps to serve as rank change and rule enforcement but 2 of the top 5 ended up accompanying teresa and other 2 left the org so for the historical records ranking was left as it was. after all databooks also name her as #1. teresa was the strongest claymore they ever had (possible exceptions being alicia/beth but unlikely) so she is more than deserving of the top rank.

Cyclone

2009-09-29, 21:05

HegemonKhan

2009-09-30, 01:52

frankly, you think the Organization cares?

i mean we both are agreeing that they are very lax in keeping the ranks up to date and accurate.

also, the Organization uses ours' and the claymores' obsessions with the ranks to keep secrets....

rafaela being rank 5...... the only claymores who realized rafaela much much too powerful for her rank 5 was irene, and trainee teresa noticed rafaela's power while in exile.

many higher ranks have been dumped down to lower ranks because they bring up an even more powerful claymore. well do you think a claymore's rank 1 power drops to rank 2 power when they are dumped down to rank 2? i'll answer: NO.

when priscilla was moved up to rank 2 does that mean irene got weaker to only a rank 3 ? NO

when teresa was moved to rank 1 and rosemary dumped to rank 2, does that mean rosemary wasn't a fully awakened rank 1 claymore, just like Isley, Riful, Luciela, AND PRISCILA were? NO

we have to remember the organization is diabolical and devious and tricky and cunning. they set up the ranking system just as a diversion for their secret motives and actions.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

AND THE MOST GLARING EXAMPLE OF ALL:

CLARE, ya she's a weak sissy rank 47, dead last weakest claymore..... many of her opponents have thought that... and whats the status of those opponents? DEAD DEAD DEAD DEAD DEAD

as jean said to helen: "clare saved my life, WTH is the significance of our ranks anyways?"

Shiek927

2009-09-30, 02:02

frankly, you think the Organization cares?

i mean we both are agreeing that they are very lax in keeping the ranks up to date and accurate.

also, the Organization uses ours' and the claymores' obsessions with the ranks to keep secrets....

rafaela being rank 5...... the only claymores who realized rafaela much much too powerful for her rank 5 was irene, and trainee teresa noticed rafaela's power while in exile.

we have to remember the organization is diabolical and devious and tricky and cunning. they set up the ranking system just as a diversion for their secret motives and actions.

I wouldn't just chalk it to their motives. The Organization gives someone a higher rank when they are worthy of holding that title. Obviously they are blind to many many many things(Claire for one), but for the most part, it's accurate which is what I like about their ranking system: they don't just give a rank to someone because the person is dead, they give it when the person deserves it and has the power to back up the number.

Obviously, their is corruption, but for the most part, it's worked this way and I like it.

HegemonKhan

2009-09-30, 02:12

that's true... i didn't mean to sound like they don't give in general the correct rankings....

i'm just saying it's not perfect and the "be all end all" in terms of their actually ranking in terms of power

just saying not to be completely "caught up" in the ranks. like the example i have used even earlier:

priscilla bing so much more powerful than rank 2 irene clearly makes priscilla a rank 1 overriding her given rank of 2.

(though priscilla is/was unstable for sure, which might be why they gave her rank 2...but powerwise....priscila is definately a rank 1)

(and i edited my post above after you posted yours shiek... i added clare which is a great example of ranks not being everything.... and even used jean's line to helen... hehe *grins*)

and as for teresa....

she really shouldn't have been given rank 1, it confuses people... teresa shoulda been given the rank:

ALL POWERFUL GODDESS or BEYOND rank 1 or Rank 1 OF the Rank 1's !!!!!

naruto8001360

2009-09-30, 06:31

BISHOU NO TERESA

2009-09-30, 17:45

When Teresa & clare jumped out from inn's window, priscilla didn't strike her. i believe they had a real chance back there. i also believe that was the only possible logical way to defeat teresa.

secondly when priscilla said that'd be cheap Teresa tought this girl is like "i'm men of my words", oh my.

so... if you remember that unfortunate scene *i beg you cut off my head while i still have a human heart* (liar b.tch btw) teresa tought okay lil girl (with mercy and a tender sympathy) i will spare you from your misery (in that moment we saw priscilla approaching to the sword)

oh come on?! how come a warrior can't saw thats coming, cuz your life on the line besides a Number One warrior like you cannot act like such unexperienced way and cannot lower your guard.

i believe this is Yagi's fault to kill teresa in such, bad plotted incident. because you can't kill QUEEN of ALL CLAYMORE's with this obvious move. not making any sense. i believe its all only bad plotage thats all. cuz in the end she had to die one way or another. i wish she'd die in a more proper way. (but you think thats possible guys, so thats why she died like that cuz killing her almost impossible. even 4 on 1. thats my point)

HegemonKhan

2009-09-30, 17:52

not so.....

it doesn't matter how pwerful you are, if you aren't paying attention or on guard, you can be killed.

heck you could have "god" looking away or not paying attention, and be able to decapitate even him! well if he could be decaopitated and die, hehe.

a surprise-unexpected attack is a surprise-unexpected attack. AND teresa with her softness, mercy, and lowering her wariness/guard only enhanced the success of priscilla's action.
------------------------------------------------------------------
frankly, teresa should never had died....

teresa (foster "mother") and clare (foster "daughter"), (should have...) live(d) a normal-human life happily ever after, if it weren't for that CENSOR priscilla....

but than we wouldn't have our Claymore manga's hero-protagonist, the claymore Clare, who's entire (or main) purpose for all that she has endured and went through, is to get revenge on Priscilla for killing her teresa.

Whether, this is still her only purpose is unknown, or if she will find or has already found other purposes and meaning to her existence.

MisterJB

2009-09-30, 18:01

(liar b.tch btw)
We can't be sure if it was a lie.
What if Priscilla's human mind asked for Teresa to kill and it was her Awakened mind that attacked Teresa?
From my point of view, Priscilla was being sincere on her request for death. But, in the next minute, her AB side took control and she attacked Teresa.
There is absolutely no way of fiding out the truth but the most probrable option is that she was being sincere.

bad plotted incident

Are you serious? The Teresa arc was one of the best arcs in Claymore mainly due to it's amazing plot. Teresa died that way in order to shock the reader, to leave him/her as speechless as Clare was.

And you call that a bad plot?

clarakiss~

2009-09-30, 18:25

but clare defeated her at last just with her 1/4 yoki power.
beside that, priscilla lunched all her yoki power against teresa but still didn't do anything which means teresa is number 1 for all times.
and no metter what prisclla does she will never get even close of teresa's power

please don't use the half-baked clare/priscilla anime fight as an answer. it clearly show madhouse was in a hurry to get claymore anime out the way, which is the reason it ended like so. so please, follow the manga version, not the crappy anime. :p

HegemonKhan

2009-09-30, 20:34

why use the anime...when you got the manga....

CLARE'S MASSIVE POWER:

1. a near fully awakened clare defeats rank 2 male awakened one commander of isley's forces rigard (the powerful silver eyed lion of legend that killed flora, jean, undine, and veronica so easily. And nearly killed miria so easily too, if not for clare saving her head, literally)

2. clare slices rank 2 agatha to pieces. first her one leg on arrival, than all 7 of her legs, than finishes off agatha while she held galatea hostage.

3. clare isn't scared of riful, cuz riful can't kill-hit her. (it is unknown if clare could actually have a chance of beating her, though personally, i think clare can, especially considering how much trouble riful was having with just the abyss feeders, even before alicia showed up to help the abyss feeders, which she didn't need to, well maybe)

4. clare defeats the rafaela-destroyer image in the dream-mind world or the illusion.

5. in the real world, clare hadn't released her yoki yet, nor used her flash sword, as well. only using the weaker windcutter on agatha, duph (i think she did enoucnter and fight duph on the way to R+L+D, but maybe she didn't), and the destroyer projectile awakend ones.

6. clare had no problem with the destroyer's projectile awakened ones, whereas helen and deneve did.

* Clare's such a show-off ! She always makes grand entrances and exits ("fatalities" of her opponents) .... coming through the roof to save raki from his yoma brother zaki, letting herself get punched through the stomach, throwing her claymore and killing the flying yoma, killing the super yoma in the cathedral, getting up and saving miria helen deneve from the male awakned one, taking on riful and duph, saving galatea and jean from riful and duph, getting a "hit" on riful, and all the numerous other scenes...

SHOW-OFF !!!!! CLARE is such a SHOW-OFF !!!! I LUV her showing off!!!! though, i'm still waiting for her to show off that "prostitute" smile-smirk..... GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

Shiek927

2009-09-30, 20:42

You are grossly overestimating Claire's strength, Hedgy.

It is true her natural power has been accelerating faster and faster, but your words almost make it sound like she is at an Abyssal level and she isn't quite there yet. That will definitely be her next plateau, but it's still a ways away.

3. clare isn't scared of riful, cuz riful can't kill-hit her. (it is unknown if clare could actually have a chance of beating her, though personally, i think clare can, especially considering how much trouble riful was having with just the abyss feeders, even before alicia showed up to help the abyss feeders, which she didn't need to, well maybe)

If Claire could beat Riful, why didn't she just attack her when she followed Dauf?

"If I so much as cross her line of sight, she'll kill me"

It was something like this, but i think this makes it clear, that Riful is still on a completely different level.

Riful had trouble, of course she did. She was attacked out of surprise by numerous people she had never met before. Although they had not adapted to her, The Abyss Eaters are a great threat and Riful had never met them before in her life, of course she had trouble, everyone does, and then bam, Alicia showed up.

HegemonKhan

2009-09-30, 20:48

Shiek927

2009-09-30, 21:09

meh, as i said, it's definately up to debate....

my own view is that clare can kill riful (is MORE powerful, not just equal), at least if she were to nearly awaken now with her greater power (due to the 7 years of training), like she had 7 years ago against rigard....
--------------------------------------

i mean it's unfair and foolish to compare an abyssal one, who's using 100% yoki release, to a claymore who isn't using 100% yoki release, let alone any yoki release (currently clare hasn't released her yoki yet, in the real world anyways).

it's like comparing priscilla using 80% yoki release against teresa using only "0%" or 10% yoki release.....

It's unfair and foolish even if she was using youki, very few can get away with saying they can beat an Abyssal One.

Think about it; Claire, an Abyssal One who can beat Riful? do you honestly think that?

If she were to fully awaken, that's a different story, but even if she used her youki, Riful would still emerge victorious. Their are too many opportunities that show this.

HegemonKhan

2009-09-30, 21:16

clare didn't exactly have any problem rescuing audrey, rachel, and the otehr two nameless claymores from riful. heck miria and deneve and helen were able to as well. And clare is more powerful than all 3 of them (well miria can be debatable, kind of).

clare also stayed and talked to riful, shows that clare isn't afraid of riful anymore. though this is also because clare knows that riful will have a polite discussion with her and not attack during it. Riful is the complete opposite of awakened one Priscilla. Riful would never have done that "sneak attack" on teresa. Riful kept her honor and dignity as an abyssal one. priscilla lost her honor and dignity when she awakened.
---------------------------------

"Think about it; Claire, an Abyssal One who can beat Riful? do you honestly think that?" shiek

i already said,

I DO, indeed

(it's been a long time since clare, galatea, and jean battled riful and duph in the witches maw. clare has gotten much much more powerful since than.... from both her numerous otehr combat battles and the 7 years of training. clare is so powerful now, she beat rank 2 agatha with NO yoki release with EASE, whereas she had to nearly awaken to kill rank 2 rigard in the past)

but this is jsut me, i understand how probably most others disagree. they (and you) have good arguments against clare being able to take on riful.

Shiek927

2009-09-30, 21:20

clare didn't exactly have any problem rescuing audrey, rachel, and the otehr two nameless claymores from riful. heck miria and deneve and helen were able to as well. And clare is more powerful than all 3 of them (well miria can be debatable, kind of).

clare also stayed and talked to riful, shows that clare isn't afraid of riful anymore. though this is also because clare knows that riful will have a polite discussion with her and not attack during it. Riful is the complete opposite of awakened one Priscilla. Riful would never have done that "sneak attack" on teresa. Riful kept her honor and dignity as an abyssal one. priscilla lost her honor and dignity when she awakened.

None of these things prove anything, it just shows that Claire doesn't give a damn as usual and that Riful naturally has trouble catching those who don't emit youki. None of these things promote the idea that Claire could actually beat Riful.

Claire vs Miria is meaningless, Claire has nigh-infinite potential with Teresa inside of her and the line will eventually be drawn where Miria cannot keep up with her anymore.

Priscilla "sneak attacked" Teresa out of survival instinct, it has nothing to do with honor or dignity. Her disappearing humanity saw herself for what she was becoming, an Awakened Being, and wanted death, but it was too late and her awakened side killed Teresa out of instinct. Teresa was simply careless, that's all.

---

Hedge, stop editing your own posts like that.

clarakiss~

2009-09-30, 21:23

well, if clare was all that powerful, why was she and the others hiding when they came across dauf. clearly dauf isn't as strong as rigardo. i also think ur overestimating clare's power, hedgy.

HegemonKhan

2009-09-30, 21:43

well, we'll eventually see who's right hehe... just a matter of when... yagi norihiro decides to let us find out how powerful or non-powerful clare really is...

Cyclone

2009-09-30, 21:46

"Think about it; Claire, an Abyssal One who can beat Riful? do you honestly think that?" shiek

i already said,

I DO, indeed

Clare herself disagrees with you when she says: "Even if I can't beat you I'm strong enough to get away" (when rescuing audrey's group)

HegemonKhan

2009-09-30, 22:23

that's true, and i even said you guys have good arguments against my view of clare being more powerful than abyssal ones in one of my previous posts somewhere....

at least they (not just clare, but miria helen deneve) can encounter riful and get away-live from it. riful could still be far too powerful to be defeated, but at least they can now encounter riful and survive. That's quite a power up, in itself. now being powerful enough to survive an encounter with riful. i doubt any of them could pre-7 year time gap.

And i won't say clare did, riful never fought back then. only duph did. back at the witches maw, riful could have easily killed all 3 of them (clare, galatea, jean) and the rest of the claymores (miria, helen, deneve, etc...).

but now, at least clare, miria, helen, and deneve can now survive a riful who IS/WAS (during their rescue of audrey, rachel, and the other two unidentified claymores) attacking-fighting-targeting them.
----------------------------------------------------

i do concede that riful, IS VERY POWERFUL.

she has/had a much easier time destroying the abyss feeders than isley (though maybe that's because they haven't recorded much combat data from her yet, unlike isley).

however, RIFUL has a HUGE weakness, her yoki powers is pitiful. she couldn't detect the claymores on the pills. she wildly struck around her in desparation, as the claymores rescued audrey+rachel+2 claymores, since she couldn't target them. Riful relies on a huge release of yoki, in order for her to be able to feel-detect it. so against the ghosts of the north and claymores on yoki supprresion pills and the abyss feeders, she's like totally BLIND.

RIFUL's huge weakness:

she's BLIND, if there isn't a huge yoki for her to be able to dectect with her weak yoki powers.

Shiek927

2009-09-30, 22:27

that's true, and i even said you guys have good arguments against my view of clare being more powerful than abyssal ones in one of my previous posts somewhere....

at least they (not just clare, but miria helen deneve) can encounter riful and get away-live from it. riful could still be far too powerful to be defeated, but at least they can now encounter riful and survive. That's quite a power up, in itself. now being powerful enough to survive an encounter with riful. i doubt any of them could pre-7 year time gap.

And i won't say clare did, riful never fought back then. only duph did. back at the witches maw, riful could have easily killed all 3 of them (clare, galatea, jean) and the rest of the claymores (miria, helen, deneve, etc...).

but now, at least clare, miria, helen, and deneve can now survive a riful who IS/WAS (during their rescue of audrey, rachel, and the other two unidentified claymores) attacking-fighting-targeting them.

Well, of course, nobody is denying how strong they all have become, especially Claire. All the Ghosts are high single-digits, with Claire and Miria No.1's in their own right.

Still, beating an Abyssal One single-handedly is pushing it too far, especially when so many things show Claire still has awhile to go ;)

HegemonKhan

2009-09-30, 22:39

WAIT !!!!!!!! NOT AGAIN, you posted again before i finsihed editing my post... lol

anyways... i really got to get off now..... more school work to do.....

BISHOU NO TERESA

2009-10-02, 14:09

From my point of view, Priscilla was being sincere on her request for death. But, in the next minute, her AB side took control and she attacked Teresa.
There is absolutely no way of fiding out the truth but the most probrable option is that she was being sincere.

thanks but please stop being so optimistic

do you remember when Teresa told her to stop before she becomes an Awakened One? But as we are all remember priscilla DIDN'T listen and attacked to Teresa with all her SINCERE feelings. moreover she confused and held Teresa responsible for her own family's massacre either. Thats why she wanted to kill Teresa so badly and did it by distracting Teresa until her last moments of as a human and claymore. do you get it?, she calculated the course of fight and thought like "even if i have to awaken to kill her i will kill her" so by distracting her with such merciful request she took advantage of Teresa's resolve. my point is by based on this message;

"whats the deal here about human or yoma mind. she already choose to being a yoma. She had a chance but she choose to didn't yield. and did whole thing intentionally "

Are you serious? The Teresa arc was one of the best arcs in Claymore mainly due to it's amazing plot. Teresa died that way in order to shock the reader, to leave him/her as speechless as Clare was.

And you call that a bad plot?

and about that; i didn't mean whole arc. it was greatest and most shocking arc ever in anime history, thats why many of us here "Teresa Fans" lets just say it "last 15 seconds" i just mentioned about last 15 seconds. teresa was completely looking to her but somehow she --->managed to approach to the sword<---. this was ridiculousness. thats why i felt like "no way! are you kidding me, that was obvious"

Shiek927

2009-10-02, 14:38

thanks but please stop being so optimistic

do you remember when Teresa told her to stop before she becomes an Awakened One? But as we are all remember priscilla DIDN'T listen and attacked to Teresa with all her SINCERE feelings. moreover she confused and held Teresa responsible for her own family's massacre either. Thats why she wanted to kill Teresa so badly and did it by distracting Teresa until her last moments of as a human and claymore. do you get it?, she calculated the course of fight and thought like "even if i have to awaken to kill her i will kill her" so by distracting her with such merciful request she took advantage of Teresa's resolve. my point is by based on this message;

"whats the deal here about human or yoma mind. she already choose to being a yoma. She had a chance but she choose to didn't yield. and did whole thing intentionally "

why are you speaking in red? :heh:

I agree with MisterJB's line of thinking, even if you find it "optimistic". She didn't held Teresa responsible for her family, she said it herself that it was her who killled her father who transformed. She hates Teresa for what she is, a monster, which she didn't understand what she was becoming until it was too late.

When she understood, she begged to be killed, but by then it was too late, and her awakened side killed Teresa. It's that simple.

Gooral

2009-10-02, 15:28

(...)
When she understood, she begged to be killed, but by then it was too late, and her awakened side killed Teresa. It's that simple.
Huh? Have we read the same manga? Her awakened side killed Teresa? I would strongly argue with that. It's definitely not simple as you state.

Priscilla's only desire the moment she was beaten by Teresa was revenge and killing Teresa, these were her only objectives, she was greatly piqued professional killer. All the time she was saying she would kill her (when she still was a claymore with full human consciousness), and suddenly assassin wants redemption, yeah right. Teresa's mistake was that she dealt with Priscilla like she did with Rosemary, underestimated her and believed her. See pages 52 and 53 of volume 5:

Priscilla: I will kill you ! I will never forgive you ! I will kill you ! ....
My papa was so kind to me, give me back my papa ! [tries to kill Teresa again with sudden attack]
<few minutes later she forgets that she wanted to kill her, lol>
Priscilla: Please, kill me while I still have a shred of humanity.

I fail to see how the blame can be laid on awakened Priscilla only. All in all Priscilla did what she wanted earlier, believing that suddenly she changed her mind and that it was because of youma she used a cheap shot, is naive IMO. It was her own desire that led to it. Awakened Priscilla couldn't care less about Irene or Noel and Sophia, she killed them only after they attacked her and she left Clare untouched, why would someone with such personality use a cheap shot against Teresa?

Priscilla did/could receive plenty of help. She just rejected it / didn't want it. She wanted to kill Teresa herself, was being cocky and full of pride believing that no one can stand against her as long as she goes by org's rules. Irene tried to convince Priscilla to drop her youki, although she listened, she didn't want to hear her advice. Teresa helped her too and how did she respond to that?
The difference between Clare and Priscilla is that Clare wasn't too prideful to receive help from others, Priscilla was. Where Clare helped people and saved them, Priscilla killed in the name of justice.

And I don't understand why people here are so eager to forgive Priscilla for what she did. She killed Teresa and obliterated masses of people!!! That's unforgivable. Besides, how could Clare know that Priscilla is being honest ? How could she know that in 5 years later she wouldn't snap and go obliterate whole country ?
Defeated Priscilla: I won't kill anymore, please spare me I want to save my papa.
Clare: Okay.
The situation might resemble what we've seen in 4th volume just before Teresa died. Clare stands before defeated Priscilla unwilling to forgive her when Raki begs her to forgive her. Clare's hesitates for a second *swoosh* and her head is rolling.
Priscilla smiles and Raki takes Clares head to Rubel asking him to infuse it in his body. The end. Claymore 2 in progress.
Seriously, how could Clare know that Priscilla is and always will be harmless? Would you be a sucker who would believe her words "I won't kill humans or claymores anymore" or would you doubt her and assume that safer for everyone would be disposing of such a monster? Would you base your judgement on her looks ? (She looks like a frightened girl, yeah, I'll forgive her).

HegemonKhan

2009-10-02, 17:22

i've always wondered.....

when priscilla talks about teresa having killed her parents.....

i wonder if priscilla doesn't mean her human parents, but instead it is the yoma inside of her talking about all the yoma and yoma "parents" teresa has killed......

making priscilla sckitzophrenic, switching between her human mind and her yoma mind. in one instant her human mind is in control begging "to die as a human", and the next her yoma mind is in control, ranting about all the yomas that claymores and teresa personally has killed... etc...

priscilla seems to be confusing her human and yoma minds with each other. Priscilla thinks her yoma "brethren" are her human parents and rants at teresa for being the murderer of her human parents, when she is suppose to mean her yoma "brethren".

irvinethearcher

2009-10-02, 19:09

Priscilla is like gollum a tragic figure who can be empathized with but can not be trusted. She probably has some kind of split personality who knows...

BISHOU NO TERESA

2009-10-03, 07:37

HegemonKhan

2009-10-03, 19:32

greyhame6

2009-10-03, 19:57

claymores come from yomas. in a sense claymores are the sons and daughters of yomas.

of course it's not seen as the same as with human parents and their offspring, but that's from our biased views as humans as to what a "parent" and "child" is.

for those interested in astronomy, you should well be aware that:

humans are LITERALLY:

CHILDREN of the STARS

we, humans, are literally made out of star dust.

cant really call yoma their parents coz they sure didnt raise claymores and they didnt give birth 2 em either.... just gave up a few body parts. that would make em.... comrades? lol. since org is producing both claymores & yoma that'd technically make em siblings. this is one messed up family....

HegemonKhan

2009-10-03, 22:45

FACT: Teresa is AT LEAST, and probably more so than, x8 MORE POWERFUL than priscilla.

(evidence) manga:

(if you need the sourcing, i'll gladly do it for you and provide it, if just to clear up your confusion about teresa > priscilla)

Teresa, using NO yoki, beat (and could have decapitated, but CHOSE NOT TO) Priscilla in their first fight (a solo one, between teresa and priscilla, as irene, sophia, and noel watched) in the town.

Teresa, using NO yoki, beats all four (priscilla, irene, sophia, and noel) of them, all using 10% yoki, at once (they fight teresa 4v1), in their 2nd fight in town, and again Teresa could have decapitated priscilla, but CHOSE NOT TO AGAIN.

Priscilla, using 70-74% yoki, is able to cut Teresa's (who's still using NO yoki) forehead, in their third battle (it is another solo one, teresa vs priscilla, with irene, sophia, and noel watching again), this time outside of the town.

Teresa, realizing priscilla is too powerful to beat with NO yoki, gets "serious". Teresa unleashes ONLY 10% of her yoki, and defeats priscilla, using 70-74% yoki, for a third time, and for a third time, CHOSE NOT to decapitate priscilla, urging priscilla to change back.

Priscilla, unleashes more yoki using 75-79% yoki now, and attacks Teresa. Teresa, still using only 10% yoki, manages to still parry it (though with some slight difficulty).

Priscilla, unleashes more yoki, hitting 80% yoki use now, and begins to awaken. Her muscles bulk out, ripping her clothes, and she drops her sword. Realizing it is too late and she's in the process of awakening, Priscilla begs for Teresa to kill her, "so that she may die as a human".

Teresa accepts, foolishly, believing priscilla (despite priscilla being in the process of awakening) and believing priscilla can hold off the awakening yoma inside her, lowering her guard and wariness (and in the anime, teresa drops back from 10% yoki to NO yoki release, as seen with the eyes going from golden to silver).

Priscilla picks up her sword and cuts off Teresa's hands, leaving her defenseless, for the next slice, a decapitation of Teresa's head.

Priscilla's awakening continues in full (maybe due to her glee of victory over teresa, saying to herself, "maybe letting myself awaken ain't so bad".....), becoming the One-Horned Purple (anime, at least) demon awakened one / abyssal one.

Irene attacks priscilla, but Priscilla rips off her left arm.

Sophia and Noel attack priscilla, but priscilla kills them both with her tentacle fingers.

priscilla attacks irene, but irene was just 1 step ahead, and fakes her death. Priscilla thinks she killed irene.

priscilla walks by trembling little clare, and flies off to the north. where, she'll first encounter and kill ophelia's family and brother. Than, she'll destroy 4 villages in the north lands of alfonse. Rigald and Isley than challenge her and both lose to her.

meanwhile, clare ..... yada yada yada...

-----------------------------------------------------------

now the math......

teresa's 10% yoki beats priscilla's 80% yoki

10n=80
n=8

teresa IS AT LEAST x8 MORE POWERFUL than priscilla.

if priscilla was at 100% yoki, how much yoki would teresa need to equal and beat priscilla:

100/8=12.5

Teresa ONLY needs 12.5% yoki to EQUAL priscilla's 100% yoki

Teresa ONLY needs 13% yoki to BEAT priscilla's 100% yoki

Teresa > priscilla

at least 8 times MORE powerful !!!!

greyhame6

2009-10-03, 23:16

thats a really nice summary but u really havent said nething different from ur previous post -_- u cannot use matmematics to rationalize fights. unique/special abilities and latent talents have no definite value and claymore revolves around those. statistically, sophia, noel & irene outrank teresa in their respective special skills. this can be proven mathematically as well but teresa still annihilated them. thats y i dont even have to check if ur math is right.... proving this mathematically is wrong.

HegemonKhan

2009-10-03, 23:46

that comment was from irene......

BEFORE BEFORE BEFORE BEFORE BEFORE BEFORE !!!

BEFORE irene witnessed a hint of teresa's true power.

irene made this comment BEFORE she witnessed teresa beat priscilla 3 times, and the third time priscilla was nearly at awakening (nearly 80% yoki) and teresa only at 10% yoki.

irene made this comment BEFORE she said: "BUT, teresa is still better because a fight-battle isn't a skills competition"

heck irene actually thought priscilla (just like the organization did) was more powerful than teresa, HA HA HA HA !!!

teresa sure didn't have a hard time keeping her actual power secret from irene or the organization.... THE FOOLS !!!!

greyhame6

2009-10-04, 00:14

HegemonKhan

2009-10-04, 00:27

personally, i think teresa IS faster sword swinging that irene, more agile than sophia, and more brute strength than sophia....she jsut kept it secret from them...pretending to be worse at these skills...

i mean.... can you really see sophia having more brute strength than teresa had twisting her wrist and ripping off fully awakened rank 1 rosemary's arm ??? !!!!!!

that would be SCARY !!! if sophia had even more brute strength than this.....

sophia's "greater" brute strength:

can cut through a stone pillar with her sword

teresa's "lesser" brute strength:

merely with the twist of her wrist, is able to rip off fully awakened rank 1 (aka abyssal one) rosemary's arm !!!!

pfft, ya..... ripping off an abyssal one's arm just by twisting you "human" wrist takes less power than cutting through a stone pillar with a sword made of a material that can cut the dragon's skin which is far more tough than a mere stone pillar... uh huh...

even if this isn't so....

you omitted a line from irene:

after irene says that teresa is weaker at each individual skill, she says:

(using my own words, you can go look up the line from irene that you missed or ignored)

BUT teresa as a total package is stil superior to each of us (and we see, even all of them at once, without ANY difficulty). we need to go help priscilla, or it will be HER head that falls!

+

teresa's yoki powers !!!

greyhame6

2009-10-04, 00:43

HegemonKhan

2009-10-04, 01:02

i seriously think that noel would also have probably done the same as teresa lol. ur seriously underestimating taresa's yoki sensing. all these edges in battle truly mean nothing in front of that. there is something to be said about being able to accurately predict how ur opponent is going to attack. it render all deficiencies meaningless. but it still doesnt change the fact that taresa is inferior in certain aspects. it is perfectly true that teresa wiped the floor with those 4 w/o breaking a sweat but know that it wasnt because she's faster or stronger or more agile..... its simply because of her special ability.

we agree 100% on this part...

Teresa's (and now clare's) ability to sense the internal yoki flows from brain to body, simply makes her invincible. you can't kill what you can't hit.

clare, however, is still inexperienced with teresa's yoki powers. which, is why she still gets knocked around a bit.

though less and less if you been noticing....

*grins*

i can't remember the last time clare got hit in recent memory (chapters)..... *grins*

revan5

2009-10-04, 01:39

we agree 100% on this part...

Teresa's (and now clare's) ability to sense the internal yoki flows from brain to body, simply makes her invincible. you can't kill what you can't hit.

clare, however, is still inexperienced with teresa's yoki powers. which, is why she still gets knocked around a bit.

though less and less if you been noticing....

*grins*

i can't remember the last time clare got hit in recent memory (chapters)..... *grins*

I seem to recall a AB Cat's tail knocking her flat on her butt one chapter prior to the current Chapter 96. :p

HegemonKhan

2009-10-04, 01:47

ya but i don't think bruised pride matters to clare.....

and landing on her bottom is better than her face (like much earlier clare did often... one day i'll count all of her "face plants")

greyhame6

2009-10-04, 04:05

I seem to recall a AB Cat's tail knocking her flat on her butt one chapter prior to the current Chapter 96. :p
u mean this?
http://i33.tinypic.com/160dffs.png
still didnt get hit though; she blocked it w/ her sword

Ryuken

2009-10-05, 20:53

You are right, she didn't get hit, not on that occasion but I seem to remember that she got hit from the tail or something like that. The other thing that really got me this chapter was Deneve. I mean she has really matured like hell and has gotten a lot smarter too. Like, previously ripping her whole hand and then regenerating it in an instant to prevent infection. And also towards the end of the last chapter. Hellen going down from fatigue, yet Deneve standing ground with Clare. And also the fact that she and Clare knew that the carnage was going start again, sensing the second round even before it had begun. Where as Hellen had no clue. This is of course no offense to all the Hellen fans out there. I mean she is also unique in her own mysterious way.:)

HegemonKhan

2009-10-05, 21:42

deneve actually makes this comment (loosely paraphrasing):

deneve releases her yoki finally (possibly around 80%-awakening level)

as a Half Awaken with her 7 years of training with NO yoki release during the 7 years time gap skip, deneve says this:

"wow, the energy is just flowing and i barely notice it. it feels like i'm only releasing a little bit, but i'm not. it's hardly having any effect on me"

deneve is still completely human-claymore, NO awakening (can't tell about golden eyes from the manga's black and white which happens at 10% yoki, no face contorting which usually occurs at 30% yoki, no body contorting which usually happens at 50% yoki, and no awakening which usually happens at 80% yoki). yet, deneve is able to fully regenerate (a skill/ability that requires near 80% yoki to do) her entire arm almost instantaneously, aka as fast as the abyss feeders almost.

now imagine clare.... and her power... WOOT PWNAGE !!!!!
----------------------------------------------------

why we are talking about deneve and helen in the priscilla vs teresa thread ....... i don't know....

irvinethearcher

2009-10-06, 09:22

she may have mentioned it before witnessing her power but it still holds true afterwards. irene's speed, noel's strength and sophia's agility rival alicia/beth's and surpass teresa's. that is neither a lie nor an exaggeration. one and only reason teresa was able to beat them was because her ability in sensing yoki surpasses all. that is also the reason why priscilla was the best match for teresa since she fought w/o releasing her yoki.
stats for reference:
Yoki: Agility: Strength: Mental: Sense: Leadership:
http://i34.tinypic.com/2n1dqxk.jpghttp://i37.tinypic.com/inevpe.jpghttp://i34.tinypic.com/10ygge9.jpghttp://i33.tinypic.com/xdugp3.jpg

The stats are a lot of BS concerning theresa.
The stats came from the org and for the org it was an impossibility that theresa could beat an awakened rosemary. As you can see in the databook the org thought that teresa slayed rosemary before she awakened because they never mentioned rosemary's awakening here is proof that the org thought all went it's normal way here.
So knowing that thersa was easily able to twist rosemary's right awakened main arm off with her left hand and without even releasing her yoki is a proof that theresa really had an "S" in strength.
I strongly believe that her speed is "S" too.
Remember that theresa countered the stealthed priscilla by simply raising her base speed beyond hers. Priscilla first thought that she slowed down but then she recognized that teresa simply made the same basic swordsmovements faster than before. Rafaella could block clare's windcutter who was as strong as clare's quicksword during pieta as deneve stated. And irene said that clare's qs is half as strong as hers. So i think it isn't far fetched if the even far stronger theresa could easily block even the quicksword of a stealthed irene if rafaella could block the the qs/windcutter of the stealthed clare who was half as strong as irene's qs.
If the fight against priscilla showed something than that teresa can be very strong even without her yoki sensing and i highly doublt that muscualar sophia would be able to twist rosemary's arm off in the same effortless way theresa did.