View Full Version : Touma's Power: What can he block ?
kingsky123
2008-12-24, 00:47
huh? shouldnt the beams stop? since it was casted by a magic power? i mean the girls railgun stopped
MrTerrorist
2008-12-24, 01:04
huh? shouldnt the beams stop? since it was casted by a magic power? i mean the girls railgun stopped
Actually it's psychic power. Furthermore those were physical objects and Toma can only stop magical & psychic powers.
kingsky123
2008-12-24, 01:17
yes but since he can stop the momentum of the railgun by just touching it with the hand, shouldnt the momentum for the I-beam stop as well? they were both powered by psychic energy anyway
ReddyRedWolf
2008-12-24, 01:37
yes but since he can stop the momentum of the railgun by just touching it with the hand, shouldnt the momentum for the I-beam stop as well? they were both powered by psychic energy anyway
Well yeah if his hand is fast enough.
But also consider the weight of a beam.
Oh I cancelled your TK. Crap its falling on me.:heh:
One thing is for sure. When their hands met nothing happened.
I think Accelerator found Mr. Hero as a more interesting target than an Imouto.
Yes another one. :rolleyes: First Mikoto now a psycho.
Hell who knows if this keeps up maybe Touma will get a yandere package.
MrTerrorist
2008-12-24, 04:19
yes but since he can stop the momentum of the railgun by just touching it with the hand, shouldnt the momentum for the I-beam stop as well? they were both powered by psychic energy anyway
The Railgun part from the Railgun manga is not canon because the mangaka did not do his/her research because if Mikoto did use her Railgun, she would have injured Toma since she actually shooting a coin at him not her electrical powers.
Burner of Anime
2008-12-24, 05:40
There is still an element of psychic power when Mikoto uses the railgun, probably why Touma can still block it. Sure it has amazing velocity, except it somehow runs out after 1-0meters. On the other hand, Violent I-Beam attack here is akin to being pushed to fall/fly in his direction. It isn't Accellerator's power driving the attack, it's gravity going the other way to avoid him.
Chaos2Frozen
2008-12-24, 06:00
I've always thought that Accelarator's Vector altering powers to fire his projectiles is different from Mikoto's railgun. Well that, and lets face it- Comparing a coin to an I-Beam :heh: ?
Then again, and I'm sure I'll be corrected on this soon enough, maybe Touma could stop it, but just didn't think he could. If I didn't recall wrongly, he was focused on avoiding them- And who could blame him? It's a freaking-ton-of construction support bar flying towards you!
ZeroForever
2008-12-24, 09:14
the thing is if he really did stop the coin it makes no sense, since rail guns ammo is essential a piece of metal using electromagnetics shot at high enough speeds that it can pierce nigh anything.
So unless imagine breaker could stop the velocity or the image depictions are incorrect, the coin should just punch a hole though him regardless if it cancelled the electromagnetic powers as once it left her hand it should have already been fired and velocity established.
though honestly, even subconsciously there is no way he (a physically normal person) should be able to react fast enough to block lightning or a rail gun bullet.
kingsky123
2008-12-24, 09:54
the thing is if he really did stop the coin it makes no sense, since rail guns ammo is essential a piece of metal using electromagnetics shot at high enough speeds that it can pierce nigh anything.
So unless imagine breaker could stop the velocity or the image depictions are incorrect, the coin should just punch a hole though him regardless if it cancelled the electromagnetic powers as once it left her hand it should have already been fired and velocity established.
though honestly, even subconsciously there is no way he (a physically normal person) should be able to react fast enough to block lightning or a rail gun bullet.
i hope he evolves to some amped up imagine breaker, being able to bolt out anyones powers by just touching them or something
ReddyRedWolf
2008-12-24, 10:09
Well one fear Biri-biri had about Touma in the Railgun besides being serious on her (WTF does she want him to get serious or not? Is she M?) like a yankee delinquent is that he can turn her to normal girl...Permanently
One of the misconceptions of Mikoto about Touma's power is that it can seal her power, taking it away.
Of course she knows he is a hero that goes to damsels recue even if the girl is her.
That's what irritates her about Touma.
Touma makes her feel like a normal girl.
My theory is that with the Railgun, the actual psychic power was, at the moment of impact to Touma's hand, still propelling the coin forward, so when Imagine Breaker stopped it, the coin no longer had any force, making the inertia null(ex: you push a box. As long as the force(in this case, you) push the box, it keeps moving. Once the force stops, the box doesn't move). Accelerator's power affects the object and its force is an after-effect of his power, which is why Touma can't stop them.
I still think it's impossible to react to the Railgun though, I don't know HOW he did that :confused:.
ZeroForever
2008-12-24, 11:20
Railguns use two sliding or rolling contacts that permit a large electric current to pass through the projectile. This current interacts with the strong magnetic fields generated by the rails and this accelerates the projectile.
If I'm not mistaken in this case Biri uses her fingers as the coils contacts meaning once it's left her fingers the accelerated velocity of the coin should have already been established.
KaneDragon
2008-12-24, 11:56
The coin is a solid object, with an existence independent of Mikoto's power. Regardless of whether Mikoto's power is still accelerating it, its speed and mass at the moment of negation are real. If Touma could block a railgun coin, then he'd be able to stop the iron bars, since it's all the same principle. If the latter is not the case, then the former was a mistake on the part of the Railgun manga. But looking back over the chapter, Touma never actually had the chance to try stopping the bars with his right hand, did he. He was too busy getting pelted with rocks, slammed in the chin, and so forth. He thought to himself that he couldn't, though, so I'm going with that.
(ex: you push a box. As long as the force(in this case, you) push the box, it keeps moving. Once the force stops, the box doesn't move)
Someone needs to get caught up on 17th century physics.
The coin is a solid object, with an existence independent of Mikoto's power. Regardless of whether Mikoto's power is still accelerating it, its speed and mass at the moment of negation are real. If Touma could block a railgun coin, then he'd be able to stop the iron bars, since it's all the same principle. If the latter is not the case, then the former was a mistake on the part of the Railgun manga. But looking back over the chapter, Touma never actually had the chance to try stopping the bars with his right hand, did he. He was too busy getting pelted with rocks, slammed in the chin, and so forth. He thought to himself that he couldn't, though, so I'm going with that.
The problem with assuming that he can nullify "momentum caused by psychic powers" is that it implies some weird power to nullify the indirect effects of things. If he can nullify momentum, why can't he nullify displacement and make the objects teleport back to where they started? Why can't he nullify the damage he takes from being zapped by electricity? It becomes very weird once you let him nullify indirect effects. My take on it is that the manga writer simply didn't really understand what a railgun was, so I choose to ignore that part.
DmonHiro
2009-03-16, 05:25
Actually, him stopping the railgun makes sense. He canceled the power that was pushing the coin that came from Mikoto. He can't do the same for Accelerator, since once the beams were launched, they were no longer "connected" to his powers.
Mikoto's railgun is like a push. She pushes the coin further. If she stops pushing (canceled), the coin returns to normal.
Accelerator's is like a throw. Once you throw something, it will travel according to the laws of physics. In base, AC's power just tells the object to "go that way".
MrTerrorist
2009-03-16, 06:14
Actually, him stopping the railgun makes sense. He canceled the power that was pushing the coin that came from Mikoto. He can't do the same for Accelerator, since once the beams were launched, they were no longer "connected" to his powers.
Mikoto's railgun is like a push. She pushes the coin further. If she stops pushing (canceled), the coin returns to normal.
Accelerator's is like a throw. Once you throw something, it will travel according to the laws of physics. In base, AC's power just tells the object to "go that way".
Read the quote above & does a facepalm.:T_T:
Oh god, not another one. Look, Toma cannot stop the coin fired from Mikoto's railgun NO MATTER WHAT! That part from the Railgun manga (which you should posting about at the Railgun board BTW.) is not canon. I would like explain the reasons but it will take 2 much of my time, just see the previous posts at the Railgun manga board why the Railgun will hurt Toma.
Actually, him stopping the railgun makes sense. He canceled the power that was pushing the coin that came from Mikoto. He can't do the same for Accelerator, since once the beams were launched, they were no longer "connected" to his powers.
Mikoto's railgun is like a push. She pushes the coin further. If she stops pushing (canceled), the coin returns to normal.
Accelerator's is like a throw. Once you throw something, it will travel according to the laws of physics. In base, AC's power just tells the object to "go that way".
Long story short: So does Railgun. A railgun uses magnetic fields to launch (or 'throw') an object. There is no 'pushing.' Once the coin is launched, it becomes a physical attack separate from Mikoto's ability.
However I'm curious, what does the novel have to say about this?
Oh, so Railgun is a coin throw?
I thought it was just another strong electrical attack XD
Yep, it'd hurt Touma. Badly.
*cough* No, no, not at all. I'd advice watching the first and 22nd episodes to see it in action.
Though truth be told, the anime's latest episode has raised doubt on the claim that Touma can't stop a Railgun blast. He certainly had no problem stopping that golem dead in it's tracks.
Which is why I would like to see what the novel has to say about this. Right now, the manga seems to be the odd one out.
KaneDragon
2009-03-16, 15:14
Though truth be told, the anime's latest episode has raised doubt on the claim that Touma can't stop a Railgun blast. He certainly had no problem stopping that golem dead in it's tracks.
We've already gone over a decent explanation for that, though. The entire golem wasn't flying through space. Remove the magic and its motion is halted by sheer weight and rigid structure as it reverts to a block of rock.
Except that momentum doesn't work like that. Ever tried to stop in mid-swing? It's impossible to stop immediately, and you're even exerting counterforce in stopping.
That's why I'd like someone who reads the novel to shed light on this.
KaneDragon
2009-03-16, 15:26
Except that momentum doesn't work like that. Ever tried to stop in mid-swing? It's impossible to stop immediately, and you're even exerting counterforce in stopping.
We have joints. A giant, heavy, solid block of rock (what the golem become when Touma touched it) does not. The main, stationary body was too heavy and too firmly attached to the arm (there's your counterforce) at that moment for the moving arm to effect significant motion once the golem was de-animinated.
Except that the stance of the golem (right hand punch, right leg behind, bending over) does not allow for proper balance, much less proper counterforce, and by all means the fist should have carried on and dragged the golem down with it. And this is excluding the fact that the fist Touma stopped was weighted down more then the rest of its body prior to the punch.
Personally, I prefer to explain it the other way around. Touma could cancel the 'vector change' in the steel bars being thrown at him, but that still wouldn't change the fact that... well... those would be steel bars heading towards him. Gravity is a powerful mistress, and Vector Change or not, having a steel bar fall on top of you is going to cause serious pain.
^ I believe what others are saying is that the monster is drastically supplied by magic.
It's too bulky to move, and therefore needs constant source of power.
Vector change, on the other hand, only needs to work once.
After an object changes direction, or goes at twice the speed from the collision hax, it's no longer due to esper power.
ZeroForever
2009-03-17, 13:32
honestly does anyone have the actual novel version of what happened in that scene as it could easily be a production oversight.
i'm leaning towards that the golems foward motion should have still caused it to crumple forward killing touma in the angle displayed by the anime even if the magic source was cut off.
MeisterBabylon
2009-03-17, 20:02
His right hand cancelled gravity! Which means gravity is magic too?
I think from a physic perspective that the golem could not move the way it did and still hold to geather magic must have been caceling a lot of the forces acting on it. By touching it Touma stoped it's motion and since magic had to cancel a lot of the momentum before it stoped moveing Newton's first law took over.
Oh god, not another one. Look, Toma cannot stop the coin fired from Mikoto's railgun NO MATTER WHAT! That part from the Railgun manga (which you should posting about at the Railgun board BTW.) is not canon. I would like explain the reasons but it will take 2 much of my time, just see the previous posts at the Railgun manga board why the Railgun will hurt Toma.
TAMNI manga, chapter 2, around page 15:
Touma: "This right hand... this is the "Imagine Breaker"! It has an ability to negate any attacks or effects such as railguns and God's work"
In anime he also confirmed that he can stop the railgun.
I think that the reason why Touma ain't stoping objects thrown by Accelerator is because they are much heavier then a coin so even tough they woudn't hit him since the force would be nullified, they might still fall on him if they are at a certain angle when they are touched.
MrTerrorist
2009-04-15, 11:34
TAMNI manga, chapter 2, around page 15:
Touma: "This right hand... this is the "Imagine Breaker"! It has an ability to negate any attacks or effects such as railguns and God's work"
In anime he also confirmed that he can stop the railgun.
I think that the reason why Touma ain't stoping objects thrown by Accelerator is because they are much heavier then a coin so even tough they woudn't hit him, they might still fall on him if they are at a certain angle when they are touched.
Nope, the Railgun manga artist made a mistake. Also in the anime and light novels, Mikoto has never fired her Railgun directly on Toma. Furthermore he cannot stop the Railgun just like how he cannot stop any object Accelerator "throws" at him.
Nope, the Railgun manga artist made a mistake. Also in the anime and light novels, Mikoto has never fired her Railgun directly on Toma. Furthermore he cannot stop the Railgun just like how he cannot stop any object Accelerator "throws" at him.
You didn't read my post entirely, did you?
1. At no point did I mention Railgun manga
2. In both TAMNI manga and anime, Touma tells Index that he CAN stop railguns. I even gave you the chapter and page numbers.
Obviously, he has stoped the railgun before the bridge scene in anime and manga(which, as novels confirmed, was NOT their first meeting). Hopefuly, BT will translate novel #1, chapter 1 soon so we will be able to confirm if what he said to Index is canon.
3. If the scene with Index was translated well, then Touma doesn't nulify the ability, but the effect of the ability. Thus, he can nulify the acceleration created by psychic abilities. The difference betewen a coin and the objects that Accelerator threw at him is the fact that even if he stops those objects, some of them might fall on him.
KaneDragon
2009-04-15, 11:59
not_this_shit_again.jpg
Maybe we should have a separate thread, just for this argument. :heh:
EDIT: Now we do! :D
I kinda agree... especialy since the same thing is discussed EVERYWHERE where TAMNI is concerned.
MrTerrorist
2009-04-15, 12:22
You didn't read my post entirely, did you?
1. At no point did I mention Railgun manga
2. In both TAMNI manga and anime, Touma tells Index that he CAN stop railguns. I even gave you the chapter and page numbers.
Obviously, he has stoped the railgun before the bridge scene in anime and manga(which, as novels confirmed, was NOT their first meeting). Hopefuly, BT will translate novel #1, chapter 1 soon so we will be able to confirm if what he said to Index is canon.
3. If the scene with Index was translated well, then Touma doesn't nulify the ability, but the effect of the ability. Thus, he can nulify the acceleration created by psychic abilities. The difference betewen a coin and the objects that Accelerator threw at him is the fact that even if he stops those objects, some of them might fall on him.
Watch the 1st episode one more time. The coin fired by her Railgun never hit Toma, it just pass him. The manga quote was a mistake made by Hidoi translations. Also i confirmed this with other people who have read light novels in other forums and read the prologue chapter in the 1st novel myself, so let make this clear, I not gonna repeat this again, what i say is final and what most of us in this forum who read and watch To Aru Majustu no Index and it's sides stories agree.
Toma can never block Mikoto's Railgun. He will either get injured or die from it. Your sources are incorrect and your just assuming by your own conclusions. THIS THE FINAL TIME I GONNA SAY IT LIKE EVERYONE ELSE ON THIS BOARD HAS SAID BEFORE:
Toma. Cannot. Block. Mikoto's. Railgun.
No more questions. That's it. Over. Zip it.
I wanted to reply about how I never mentioned the bridge scene and that I mentioned the dialogue betewen Index and Touma in anime and mangawhen I, out of curiosity, checked the translated prologue and...
As for my understanding, you used the spear-torpedo attack that sprang from your forehead and attacked at a speed that broke the sound barrier. But the instant it crashed into Kamijo's right hand, it scattered. To a degree, it was like punching a water balloon.
Imagine Breaker.
Like the laughing stock on television, in Academy City, those with superpowers are calculated with numbers. This strange power stops even God's miracles. The same goes for that girl's railgun attack. However, Kamijo's Imagine Breaker only operates on those strange talents. Simply put, it can stop the fireball itself, but not the concrete the fireball shattered. Also, the effect only works from the wrist up. if the fireball were to hit any other place, it would definitely burn me.
(Death. It's truly death. It'll truly be death. Kyaaaa!) Kamijo Touma's cool and composed face started contorting.
It was a complete accident that his right hand blocked that spear-tornado attack.
With his heart pounding, Kamijo acted like an adult and temporized.
In other words, are you telling me that Baka-Tsuki, anime producers and Hidoi made similiar error?
As for the Railgun manga canonnes, the author of TAMNI himself is part of the To Aru Kagaku no Railgun staff as he himself mentioned in the manga, probably the storymaker but I am not sure.
Master Assassin
2009-04-15, 14:44
... Is it safe for me to assume that Touma can block the electricity current that accelerates the coin Mikoto used as a projectile but not the speeding coin itself?
Until recently, yes. But now that we've discovered that all sources say that Touma can block Mikoto's Railgun blast? No. According to this interesting news (why we hadn't discovered this until now is beyond me :eyespin:) Touma can block a Railgun blast, meaning that the moment he touches the coin, the entire acceleration process created by her powers is halted, and the coin is stopped.
The reason why he couldn't do the same with the steel bars being dropped on top of him was because... well... they were steel bars. Even if he did cancel their vector change, they were still steel bars. Steel bar + gravity = squishy Touma.
Since words don't seem to punch through, here are the screens/pages in question:
To Aru Kagaku no Railgun manga chapter 07 page 09:
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/Liinna/argument%20stuff/th_09-1.jpg (http://s5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/Liinna/argument%20stuff/09-1.jpg)
To Aru Majutsu no Index manga chapter 02 page 15:
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/Liinna/argument%20stuff/th_15.jpg (http://s5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/Liinna/argument%20stuff/15.jpg)
To Aru Majutsu no Index anime episode 01, 11:20 mark:
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/Liinna/argument%20stuff/th_toaru.png (http://s5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/Liinna/argument%20stuff/toaru.png)
So it's final. All three sub-sources and the original novel have confirmed that Touma can block a Railgun blast from Mikoto.
Like many people here, I thought a lot about Touma's power and the way it works and the conclusion I came with is following: Touma can negate that what author wants him to negate and can't negate what author doesn't want him to negate. Also, all laws of physics, magic, Chuck Norris, etc. are nullified with the Imagine Breaker.
The other theory I have is that he can nulify any effect created by any ability, be it magical or psychic. Like fire and electricity, acceleration is just another effect created by an ability so acceleration is negated and the accelerated object is stoped and returned to the state it was before the ability affected it.
In other words, even if Touma can't stop a physicial attack, he can stop physical attacks created by an ability.
Master Assassin
2009-04-15, 15:28
... So, let's put it like this:
The other theory I have is that he can nulify any effect created by any ability, be it magical or psychic. Like fire and electricity, acceleration is just another effect created by an ability so acceleration is negated and the accelerated object is stoped and returned to the state it was before the ability affected it.
In other words, even if Touma can't stop a physicial attack, he can stop physical attacks created by an ability.
A pebble is being thrown at Touma's head without using any ability, just the normal physics laws of thrown projectiles. Touma stops it with his right hand (but didn't manage to catch it) ant the next thing we know of would be; Touma says "ouch." Because the pebble wasn't powered by any means of ability (be it magic or psychic) to be thrown at him, he gets affected by it.
Compare:
Misaka fires a railgun using a coin as a projectile at Touma. Touma's right hand goes up to attempt to block the projectile, and as soon as the projectile touches Touma his right hand instantly reduces the velocity of the coin to zero and thus preventing damage to Touma himself. Velocity reduction of the coin to zero was caused by it being launched towards him with an ability (Misaka's Railgun ability in this case).
OR:
The stone golem courtesy of Sherry Cromwell hurls a fist at Touma. Touma's right hand goes up to attempt to block the attack, and as soon as the golem's and Touma's hands make contact, the force of the golem's fist is instantly reduced to zero because the Golem itself was made of magic. And further goes the case of the Golem being possibly disintegrated into pebbles because of the magic used to bind its body parts together to form itself is being cancelled.
Would that be acceptable examples of cases?
Yes, it would.
The same would be with Misaka's lightning attacks:
When she creates lightning, it becomes lightning thus it is not magical or anything. Only its creation is supernatural. Thus, it is nullified because it was created by an supernatural ability.
If the theory is right, it would mean that he doesn't negate magic and abilities. He nulifies the effect created by anything supernatural.
If he ain't able to stop a railgun, then he shoudn't be able to stop Misaka's eletricity, Styl's fire and Accelerator's deflection because they are all one same thing: an effect created by ability, not magic itself. Like accelerated object, deflection, lightning and fire are all physicial once created.
Alright, since you guys aren't getting each other, let me lay this out
Point of view from people who think Touma cannot block Railgun:
The coin is accelerated using electrical and magnetic fields. After Mikoto fires it from her hand, it just has its own momentum, and is not kept up by ESP.
The reason Touma is capable to cancel other electric attacks is because they are constantly held up by ESP-produced electric fields.
Point of view from people who think Touma can block Railgun:
He has done it in Railgun the manga
He said it can
The books(?) say he can
I'm learning toward a 'cannot' right now, but decides to let this thing slide.
It's evident the author has left loopholes.
This is a bit similar to the discussion about how Touma stopped Ellis' punch by colliding it with his Imagine Breaker.
Like, "this is not making sense."
stillmissing
2009-04-15, 20:00
I'm not really going to get into this argument, because the truth is the author is genuinely inconsistent, but I'll say a few things.
First of all, the bridge encounter was the first time Mikoto ever showed Touma the railgun, and no she didn't shoot it at him. No, he never blocked it. Yes, he claimed he could with no experience to actually back up his claim.
Unreliable narrator (Touma) or unreliable author? That's up to you.
The way Imagine Breaker supposedly works (until the author gets inconsistent again) is that Touma cancels out any active supernatural power. In short, if the power isn't "on" Imagine Breaker does nothing. Similarly, Touma can't undo what's done by a power. What's done is done.
So he can cancel Stiyl's magical fire, but he can't fix a melted railing caused by it, nor would he be able to safely touch that railing while it was still hot after being in contact.
Similarly, Mikoto's shocks can be stopped as they represent an active power, but if she just tossed a rebar at him without guiding it actively, he better dodge.
Her chainwhip and Sherry's Golem can also be stopped because they represent an active use of power. Both are held together and guided by an active use of power (magic and magnetism) and when he touches them, the motion stops and they fall apart as both applications of the powers are interrupted.
Accelerator is a more serious problem as he uses his powers actively in short bursts other than his defensive field which is always active. So he can cancel Accelerator's defensive field, but even if Accelerator just kicks a pebble at him, Accelerator only has his power active for that second where he comes in contact with the pebble. After that, what's done is done and Touma can't change that. So whether it's hurling rocks or steel, or making a dust explosion or tossing plasma, unless Touma actually touches him while he's actively using his power to make these things happen, there's not much he can do to stop them.
Yes, if Mikoto and the clones hadn't interfered Touma would have been annihilated by the enormous plamsa mass.
Anyway, don't worry about it too much as the author doesn't seem to either.
I'm not really going to get into this argument, because the truth is the author is genuinely inconsistent, but I'll say a few things.
First of all, the bridge encounter was the first time Mikoto ever showed Touma the railgun, and no she didn't shoot it at him. No, he never blocked it. Yes, he claimed he could with no experience to actually back up his claim.
So what you're saying is that without proof, we have no way of saying whether or not he can block it?
In that case it's just as useless to assume he can't. Touma is not the type of person to brag and grossly exaggerate his abilities, so there really is no need, nor reason, to say he's lying, especially -in the case of the novel- in an internal dialog.
What we have here is every single source claiming that Touma can block a blast from Mikoto's Railgun. The only thing that has been 'proof' against it have been theories. This is a case of theories versus canon, and in cases like this canon quite simply wins.
stillmissing
2009-04-16, 06:44
So what you're saying is that without proof, we have no way of saying whether or not he can block it?
Actually no. What I was saying was that if Mikoto's railgun works the way it's technically supposed to, as in she uses her power to accelerate and launch the coin with a flick, then no he can't block it as the author has currently laid out his ability.
However, the author could decide that Mikoto is constantly accelerating the coin on a magnetic "path" (which would be complete nonsense, but not the first time that would happen in the novels) or something like that when she uses the railgun in which case he could as it would be an active application of power with which Imagine breaker could interfere.
Also, it's not necessarily about Touma lying, (it's actually about the author changing "rules" as the story progressed past the first novel) rather it's about Touma just not knowing what he's talking about, which was common even before he lost his memory.
By that same logic, the momentum of the Golem's punch should have been carried through even if the golem was stopped, causing the golem to lurch forward (the only reason you can stop a punch you threw is because you are applying counterforce, the golem would not be able to do so and would topple forward).
Touma's power can cancel items directly, or rather consciously, affected by special powers, such as Index's robe, Sherry's golem, Accelerator's vector change and as such also Mikoto's Railgun.
What he can't alter are items indirectly affected by such powers, like the novel mentioned debris caused by an explosion of a fire spell.
Perhaps the nature of Imagine Breaker is the answer to this. We have theorized before that Touma's ability breaks down the imagined result of a mage or psychic. Using Komoe's words, they create 'their own worlds' in which certain rules apply. Or rather, their own imagination. Imagine Breaker, conveniently a probably shortening of Imagination Breaker, cancels these imaginations.
This may be why Imagine Breaker affects Mikoto's Railgun, because it is an attack formed by her imagination. To put it bluntly, the coin only flies that fast because she imagines it does so. The moment Touma touches that coin, the imagination is canceled and the coin returns to it's normal state as a coin.
stillmissing
2009-04-16, 08:15
No, as I mentioned before, and it bears repeating, Imagine Breaker can only affect an *active* application of a supernatural ability.
Sherry's golem is being constantly affected by magic. This magic provides it with both structure and motion. When the magic is disrupted or canceled, it loses both structure and motion. The same rule applies to Mikoto's chainwhip.
On the other hand Touma cannot affect Accelerator's attacks at all. It doesn't matter if it's a pebble or a steel girder. There is no active power acting upon the object. His power acts on it once for a fraction of a second and then it's done. There's nothing for Imagine Breaker to affect. It's just a normal pebble or girder flying through the air with no supernatural power affecting it anymore.
There is a power active. The changing of vectors is a power that is constantly active as long is the object is moving in the vector decided by Accelerator. If this is not the case, then by the same reasoning a fireball released by Stynx, as it is no longer being powered by him once it is shot away, or Ars Magma, which creates the users imagination without any apparent upkeep, or even Mikoto's lightning once she fires it would be listed as effects of their own. Yet all of these are affected by Imagine Breaker.
As I said before, so far every source is saying that Touma can block it. Touma himself in the novels even compared it as such:
"Like the laughing stock on television, in Academy City, those with superpowers are calculated with numbers. This strange power stops even God's miracles. The same goes for that girl's railgun attack. However, Kamijo's Imagine Breaker only operates on those strange talents. Simply put, it can stop the fireball itself, but not the concrete the fireball shattered. Also, the effect only works from the wrist up. if the fireball were to hit any other place, it would definitely burn me."
Even though he knows he can't do anything about the concrete shattered by a fireball, he still says he can block a Railgun blast. Why? Because a Railgun blast is consciously affected by the power. It is a direct effect, and thus can be countered with Imagine Breaker.
stillmissing
2009-04-16, 09:14
I know it's hard to follow, but there is no active application of power. If Accelerator were to flick a rock at someone's head and Touma put his right hand on it right as Accelerator tried to do it, he would cancel the active use of power and Accelerator would end up hurting his sissy finger.
But once he flicks it, it's over. Something accelerated by accelerator is no different than something burned down by Styil. The effect already took place and Touma can't undo it.
Styil's fireballs and Mikoto's shocks are an active application of their power. Styil's fire is generated purely by his magic and canceling the magic cancels the fire.
If Styil were to use a rune to control an existing fire rather than creating one purely through magic, Touma could disrupt his control over it but wouldn't be able to simply negate the fire itself as it wouldn't be magical in nature.
Do you have any proof that such an event would occur? Or rather, do you have any proof that the exact opposite of what the novels are saying would occur?
You're piling theories upon theories while ignoring what the novel is saying: Even though he can't negate something that is affected as a secondary effect, as long as the primary effect is magical/psychic in nature, he can negate it. Both Railgun and Vector Change are primary changes.
stillmissing
2009-04-16, 09:36
Imagine Breaker's inability to stop anything Accelerator tossed at him, large or small was made pretty clear during the battle in vol 3 if you read it. Naturally, when Accelerator tried to touch him to kill him Touma blocked with his hand and canceled the active use of power. Similarly by punching with Imagine Breaker, he was able to cancel Accelerator's active defenses and hurt him.
But other than that, all Touma could do during the battle was desperately dodge.
Styil's fire and Mikoto's shocks are wholly unnatural and generated directly by their powers. They are brought into being not by maniupulating nature, but simply pop into existance due to the supernatural, and hence Imagine Breaker makes them cease to exist if they come in contact with it.
Accelerator's plamsa differs in this respect. While he used a supernatural power to create it, he did so by manipulating nature. The plasma itself is natural, created by wind currents. Thus Touma can interfere with the creation process, but once it's done that's a perfectly non-supernatural plasma ball about to fry him anbd Touma's in a serious jam.
And yet he had no problem stopping Misha's water spell, which was manipulated water drawn from the ocean, not magically created water. According to your previously mentioned manipulating fire rather then create it theory, Touma should not be able to do anything about it. This clearly wasn't the case.
Another analogy is that this spell is also in line with the likes of Railgun, as despite the water being controlled by magic, it is still water heading towards you. Like the Railgun, dispelling the magic does not change the fact that water is rushing towards you with speed capable of killing you.
As I said before, I really don't think Touma's concern was that things were thrown at him, but more that those things were solid steel railroad bars. That, and that they were dropped from above. Even if he were to touch them and cancel the acceleration, gravity means he would still have to deal with a solid steel bar-o-hurt falling on top of him.
I believe this topic has moved from how Touma's power works to how Mikoto works.
This is how I see the whole "Imagine Breaker vs Railgun" situation; mind you, this is how I see this situation. Touma's Imagine Breaker, as described, can stop anything Magical, Psychic, or Divine, but, it cannot stop natural physics unaffected by the previously mentioned forces; Magical, Psychic, or Divine.
Actually no. What I was saying was that if Mikoto's railgun works the way it's technically supposed to, as in she uses her power to accelerate and launch the coin with a flick, then no he can't block it as the author has currently laid out his ability.
Yes, this is true, if we think of Mikoto's attack as a true railgun, Touma should not be able to stop the coin, and in all honesty, it should put a hole right through him. If we look how a railgun really works:
A railgun consists of two parallel metal rails (hence the name) connected to an electrical power supply. When a conductive projectile is inserted between the rails (from the end connected to the power supply), it completes the circuit. Electrons flow from the negative terminal of the power supply up the negative rail, across the projectile, and down the positive rail, back to the power supply.
This current makes the railgun behave similar to an electromagnet, creating a powerful magnetic field in the region of the rails up to the position of the projectile. In accordance with the right-hand rule, the magnetic field circulates around each conductor. Since the current is in opposite direction along each rail, the net magnetic field between the rails (B) is directed vertically. In combination with the current (I) across the projectile, this produces a Lorentz force which accelerates the projectile along the rails. There are also forces acting on the rails attempting to push them apart, but since the rails are firmly mounted, they cannot move. The projectile slides up the rails away from the end with the power supply
Try to think of a railgun as a Handgun that uses electricity instead of gunpowder. Since we can now think of a railgun as a handgun; When you fire a gun, after the bullet leaves the chamber and is in the open air, does the gun have anymore effect on the bullet? No it does not. In the case of Mikoto, The Coin is the Bullet, and Mikoto is the gun. The gun supplies the energy needed to propel the bullet and the direction in which it travels, but has no more effect.
But, as we've seen, Touma CAN stop her "bullet" even after it's been fired from the "gun." This means Mikoto is not a TRUE railgun. This is either a mistake on the part of the writer or a mistake on Touma's, Mikoto's, and everyone elses part for not knowing how a railgun works.
Allow me to reiterate on Touma's power, it has been stated that Touma's Imagine Breaker can negate any power Magical, Psychic, or Divine, it has not been stated (or atleast to my knowledge) he can halt natural Physics. Since it's already been shown that Touma can stop Mikoto's coin after it has been fired the only explaination I can come to, is that Mikoto is actively moving/accelerating/guiding the coin to it's destination, hence why, when Touma touches it, it stops instantly. If this is the case, I believe "Patriot Missle" would have been a more fitting title for Mikoto, but lets face it, the title "Railgun" has a better effect.
Well, that's just my take on this situation.
Wow, the mod actually consented in making a thread for this...
And the debate is still hot
I doubt we will ever come to the conclusion
Anyways, tl;dr the rest of the conversation
To avoid rousing argument, I'll say this:
I'll go with that Touma can block Railgun (or do I...?), just because he said so, and also that it happened in Railgun.
But, it's not like that'll ever happen in any other universe. So w/e
I agree with stillmissing
The author is inconsistent
Get over it
stillmissing
2009-04-16, 17:44
And yet he had no problem stopping Misha's water spell, which was manipulated water drawn from the ocean, not magically created water. According to your previously mentioned manipulating fire rather then create it theory, Touma should not be able to do anything about it. This clearly wasn't the case.
No I mentioned that he wouldn't be able to negate the fire, just disrupt the control over it. And he didn't negate the water. He just disrupted her control over it. The water was still there. And yes, her spell is like Sherry's golem and (actively controlled rock) and Mikoto's chainwhip (actively controlled iron sand). The material is real, so Touma can't dispell it, but the motion is guided and controlled by an active supernatural power so Touma can stop it.
I'll try to simplify, Imagine Breaker is a power that destroys the "fake" but cannot affect the "real". Styil's fire and Mikoto's electricity are as "fake" as Hyouka herself. And if Imagine Breaker touches them, they cease to exist.
Sherry's Golem uses real rocks but their shape and motion is "fake" and granted by a constant magical spell. When Touma disrupts that spell, the shape and motion which are "fake" cease to exist, but the rocks which are real remain. Similarly, Accelerator's plasma was real. His method of creating it was "fake" and thus Imagine Breaker could have interfered if Touma had been in position to do so, but the plasma itself was very real, and if Touma had stuck his hand in it, it would have been incinerated.
This is pretty simple so far, but here's where things get slightly more complicated. "Fake" things can have real effects. For instance Hyouka could toss a baseball to Touma. Hyouka is "fake" as is her body, muscles, etc, the ball is real, the force Hyouka generates is also "fake" as a result of the nature of her body, but the acceleration the ball experiences as a result of this force is real.
Hence, when the ball gets to Touma, it's a perfectly real ball obeying standard ballistics and real physics, regardless of how it was pushed in the first place. And of course, he can just catch this ball, but he can't imagine breaker and dispel it's motion at all, only catch it like a normal person catching a normal ball. Similarly, while he can cancel the "fake" motion of Sherry's golem, if it had picked up lamp post and tossed it at him, he'd better have dodged. And this applies to Accelerator as well. He generates a "fake" force, his vector control, and as a result of this sudden force the real object it's applied to experiences a very real acceleration which Touma cannot affect. It's no different than Hyouka tossing the ball, but it is different from the wave, the golem, and the chainwhip which are being actively manipulated by a "fake" power rather than obeying real physical laws.
And this bears repeating, Accelerator pummeled Touma with everything in the vicinity, including tiny rocks. He took a much worse beating in the novel than in the anime, and he couldn't block any of Accelerator's ranged attacks regardless of the size of the object.
editing this to add this:
If you look through the novels you will find inconsistencies in how imagine breaker works. Both in terms of what it blocks and in terms of what it protects against, as the author sometimes seems to forget it's only supposed to negate stuff in contact with his hand no further than his wrist. The explanation I'm trying to give is basically how it seems to work for the most part *currently*. Granted, the author may be explaining more about the nature of Imagine Breaker soon, so things may shift around again, or may finally settle into something definite. We'll see.
Anyway, to wrap things up, if this is all tied to the bridge encounter in railgun, putting aside that it's a version of an existing scene that contradicts canon, honestly, I'm not bothered by him blocking the railgun. I'm used to Imagine Breaker's inconsistencies. What bothers me about that scene is Mikoto firing it at him in the first place. The railgun is a lethal technique, so Mikoto doesn't exactly make a habit of shooting it directly at people. And the manga has her basically shooting it at the back of Touma's head. Not to mention that it's supersonic, so there's no warning from an attack from behind. Looking at that scene, you'd be hard pressed to imagine that Mikoto wasn't trying to murder Touma right there. And since Mikoto has stated clearly that she has no desire to be a murderer, well, the scene is a bit messed up.
Master Assassin
2009-04-16, 21:12
... Since Touma's ability is kinda inconsistent in what it can do, I can't help but got an assumption that whatever Touma thinks he can and/or wants to block then the Imagine Breaker will, whatever he thinks he can't and/or doesn't want to block then it will not?
Just an assumption.
... Since Touma's ability is kinda inconsistent in what it can do, I can't help but got an assumption that whatever Touma thinks he can and/or wants to block then the Imagine Breaker will, whatever he thinks he can't and/or doesn't want to block then it will not?
Just an assumption.
Maybe that's it...
It's Imagine Breaker, perhaps the source is his cynical mindset!
So, if he develops his brain even more, he'll even bend reality if he chooses to reject it! :heh:
KaneDragon
2009-04-16, 22:01
Maybe that's it...
It's Imagine Breaker, perhaps the source is his cynical mindset!
So, if he develops his brain even more, he'll even bend reality if he chooses to reject it! :heh:
*cough* Like a certain character in Bleach? :heh:
I reject your reality and substitute my own! :D
Wilfriback
2009-04-16, 22:20
So Touma is very dangerous for both magic and science side if he "awaken" his power like Kakine or Accelerator??
No I mentioned that he wouldn't be able to negate the fire, just disrupt the control over it. And he didn't negate the water. He just disrupted her control over it. The water was still there. And yes, her spell is like Sherry's golem and (actively controlled rock) and Mikoto's chainwhip (actively controlled iron sand). The material is real, so Touma can't dispell it, but the motion is guided and controlled by an active supernatural power so Touma can stop it.
And yet, he apparently has the ability to reduce its speed and momentum to zero the moment he touches it. As it stands, we have one canon source that confirms it is possible to block a Railgun blast, and three that have Touma say its possible. Yet, we have zero canon sources say it's impossible.
The only thing that currently is saying its impossible are theories, so my standpoint is "It's possible, until proven otherwise."
Perhaps this is also a case where the authors ignorance of what a Railgun is comes into play. If what you say is right, then the author seems to think that a Railgun is constantly controlled by a magnetic field (which the visuals do seem to support) or perhaps merely Mikoto's Railgun works like this, being that it's not even a true Railgun to begin with.
Anyway, to wrap things up, if this is all tied to the bridge encounter in railgun, putting aside that it's a version of an existing scene that contradicts canon, honestly, I'm not bothered by him blocking the railgun. I'm used to Imagine Breaker's inconsistencies. What bothers me about that scene is Mikoto firing it at him in the first place. The railgun is a lethal technique, so Mikoto doesn't exactly make a habit of shooting it directly at people. And the manga has her basically shooting it at the back of Touma's head. Not to mention that it's supersonic, so there's no warning from an attack from behind. Looking at that scene, you'd be hard pressed to imagine that Mikoto wasn't trying to murder Touma right there. And since Mikoto has stated clearly that she has no desire to be a murderer, well, the scene is a bit messed up.
The only explanation I can think of is that something similar happened in the past.
faiz blaster
2009-04-17, 01:19
Here is a point that might be worth discussing: when Touma touched Index's Walking Church (her nun clothes), why it was ripped apart and not simply lost its magical properties? I ask because when he touched her cap specifically it still remained in one piece.
Master Assassin
2009-04-17, 01:51
Maybe that's it...
It's Imagine Breaker, perhaps the source is his cynical mindset!
So, if he develops his brain even more, he'll even bend reality if he chooses to reject it! :heh:
*cough* Like a certain character in Bleach? :heh:
I reject your reality and substitute my own! :D
Probably that's why the author didn't go into full detail of Touma's abilities, for fear of the Godmodding Of Touma. :heh:
MrTerrorist
2009-04-17, 05:28
Last time i was here, i had an argument with a newbie over Toma's powers, now i came back and found a this. LOL
Well, i not gonna get involve for now but i still stand from what i say about Mikoto's railgun and be giving my support to the "No he can't stop Railgun" faction.
Spectacular_Insanity
2009-04-17, 14:12
I say Touma can block anything whose origin is within the realm of "supernatural". However, I'm fairly certain he can't stop natural phenomena. So for instance, if a building falls on him, he's screwed.
I don't know if Touma could stop railgun. Depends on whether its motion while in flight is still influenced by Mikoto's power or not. My guess is that Touma could stop any electrical interference (by that I mean any additional acceleration that Mikoto could possibly apply to the object in motion), but not the momentum of the object itself. So if she fired, say, a 500 yen coin at him a sub-sonic speeds, it would hurt. A lot.
Unless plot-kai gets involved then screw it.
Another conclusion is that Mikoto's Railgun doesn't work like normal Railguns.
The general consensus seems to be that Touma can block things as long as they are affected by a supernatural phenomenon, right? In that case, his ability to block Mikoto's railgun would mean that Mikoto's railgun doesn't work like a normal railgun (accelerate with magnetic fields then fire) but rather the entire process of accelerating, firing and hitting are constantly guided by her powers. The visuals of all sources do support this, as we see constant arcs of electricity along the entire course of the projectile.
This way it makes sense for him to be able to block it, just as he did her iron sand sword, Sheryl's golem and Misha's blast of water, all three of these were manipulated forces and yet by merely canceling the powers manipulating them Touma was able to reduce their momentum to zero.
Master Assassin
2009-04-18, 11:20
Which reminds me... about the projectile Mikoto used, if people still can't agree on Keroko's point.
I suspect what actually hit Touma's hand first was - the launched energy bolt that propelled the projectile, not the projectile itself. And with the energy bolt reaching Touma's right hand first, since its source is from a supernatural cause (Mikoto's power), it became cancelled because of Touma's ability.
My logic is because the coin would be somehow engulfed in the energy bolt (if it doesn't melt/get dissolved due to the high concentration of energy in the bolt) before it hits Touma. And when the energy that hits Touma first gets cancelled, there'll be no more energy to move the coin with a freaking speed that it'll hurt, its velocity will get reduced to an amount - if not zero - that'll enable it to hit Touma harmlessly.
Indeed, and in this case we can compare it to Misha's water spell, which also launched existing water at Touma that, as soon as he canceled the magic, also reduced the water to harmless speeds.
This way all of the canon sources are correct, and there is no more conflict. Sounds like a perfect solution to me.
ellifeedn
2009-04-18, 17:01
I think I understand the logic, but just to be sure here are some examples.
1. If someone throws a brick at Touma, he can't stop it with his powers.
2. If someone used any sort of supernatural ability (be it magic or any other type) to continuously push the brick or make the brick go faster, Touma can stop it with his powers.
3. If someone with wind based powers uses a gale to blast a brick at Touma, he can't stop it with his powers.
Yes, though I'd rephrase point 3 to say "If someone with wind-based powers uses a gale to blast a brick towards Touma, he can't stop it with his powers." just to be a bit more specific
Ice Block
2009-04-19, 16:53
No la! Why the hell are you comparing IB vs Magic to IB vs ESP? That's just stupid. I mean, come on, surely you have noticed that magical attacks in this series DO NOT FOLLOW THE RULES OF PHYSICS. To make stuff simple:
Touma can negate Stiyl's flames because they are MAGICAL in nature, just like Dragon's Breath, Izzard's Ars Magna and w/e.
Touma can cancel Misha's water attack because it was held in place and manipulated by MAGIC (I could even argue that that's not really water, just some MAGICAL stuff that looks like water), just like Sherry's Golem (debris held together and powered or controlled by MAGIC) and Index's Walking Church (a purely MAGICAL wardrobe).
Touma can dismantle Mikoto's iron chain-whip because it was being held together by electricity which is constantly being supplied by her. Likewise, her electrical bolts are being negated in the same way.
However!
Touma cannot, or SHOULD NOT be able to catch a rail gun bullet (the coin) without suffering any serious injuries. If you don't know what a rail gun is or how it works, refer to this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railgun) or this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coilgun).
Touma should not be able to block any ranged and AoE (area of effect) attacks Accelerator throws at him. Ranged attacks include all matter-based projectiles (from rocks to big balls of plasma) and laser-like (photon manipulation) attacks.
With this, I say the highly controversial scene in the Railgun Manga (http://www.onemanga.com/To_Aru_Kagaku_no_Choudenjibou/7/09/) to be a mistake on the author's part due to not knowing how a railgun works. Basically, if Touma can block a railgun bullet, then he should have no trouble canceling the velocity of Accelerator's I-beams. If you don't know how Accelerator's Redirection ability works, here's a quick description:
Basically, he is able to modify the Velocity (Speed and Direction) and Acceleration (change in Velocty over Time) of all matter and energy in a bubble around him (which also acts as his protective barrier).
... So now we're down to denying Touma can block Railgun purely because 'it's a psychic power and not magic?'
That's a really weak base for an argument, wouldn't you say?
Again, we have three sources saying he can block it, and one source actually showing he can block it.
But we have ZERO sources showing he CAN'T block it.
Instead of trying to defend the theory that he can't block a Railgun blast with conjecture and denying what all four sources are saying, why not come up with an explanation that he can block it?
Again, every single source, from the anime to the two manga to the novel itself claim that he can block it. There is zero evidence that he can't.
Ice Block
2009-04-19, 20:05
Please, don't present these as solid evidence:
To Aru Kagaku no Railgun manga chapter 07 page 09:
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/Liinna/argument%20stuff/th_09-1.jpg (http://s5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/Liinna/argument%20stuff/09-1.jpg)
Admit it, this is a mistake by the artist (Fuyukawa Motoi). Even though the Railgun manga is not technically canon, it is accepted as such because it ties in to the story nicely. However, when there are contradictions between canon and fanon, it is obvious which one you should rely on. (Another more sketchy event I see here is the blocking of shrapnel from Mr. Spoon's teddy bomb -- obviously IB is broken in the Railgun Manga.)
To Aru Majutsu no Index manga chapter 02 page 15:
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/Liinna/argument%20stuff/th_15.jpg (http://s5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/Liinna/argument%20stuff/15.jpg)
To Aru Majutsu no Index anime episode 01, 11:20 mark:
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/Liinna/argument%20stuff/th_toaru.png (http://s5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/Liinna/argument%20stuff/toaru.png)
So it's final. All three sub-sources and the original novel have confirmed that Touma can block a Railgun blast from Mikoto.
And this is what you call Flavor Lore (http://www.wowwiki.com/Flavor_lore). Just because a character claims he can do _______ does not mean he can actually do it. Likewise, any explanations given by in-universe characters are not to be taken as fact unless proven otherwise by events in the said universe (like how Stiyl and Kaori claimed that Index couldn't hold more than a year's worth of memories).
What description of IB were we given? A very simple one: the ability to negate all magic and ESP. About its ability to negate the divine? Only an assumption made by Touma thanks to Index's comment, and since it seems to be so (negating his luck), then it has to be real (more flavor lore for you).
And yes, my ESP not Magic argument holds because for all instances that he has used or tried to use his IB, the initial description holds and could be easily explained using the natural laws when used against ESP, while things get a little messy when dealing with Magic. Now, give me one excerpt from the novel which specifically depicts him blocking a physical ranged attack made possible with the use of ESP and I'll gladly step down.
Now, there is only one explanation on how he can block the rail gun projectile: it was a mistake, simple as that.
There is zero evidence that he can't? Well now, all I see are claims that he can. Not much evidence there too. Hence we rely on logic.
Touma cannot, or SHOULD NOT be able to catch a rail gun bullet (the coin) without suffering any serious injuries. If you don't know what a rail gun is or how it works, refer to this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railgun) or this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coilgun).
Touma should not be able to block any ranged and AoE (area of effect) attacks Accelerator throws at him. Ranged attacks include all matter-based projectiles (from rocks to big balls of plasma) and laser-like (photon manipulation) attacks.
Pity canon has him doing both of these.
He stops a railgun shot.
He blocks some of the Aoe of the Gravity bomb. And telepathy. And the radiant heat from Innocentus and him blocking some of the AoE is the simplest explanation for his survival of the thermobaric explosion in the railyard.
It doesn't help that Touma doesn't know what Imagine Breakers limits are. He just knows his right hand is a focus for it. Observation suggests it sometimes does more than his quick description suggests it should.
Basically, if Touma can block a railgun bullet, then he should have no trouble canceling the velocity of Accelerator's I-beams.
Apart from being half dead from the incident on the bridge and Accelerator's tendancy to spam multiple projectiles at a time. Both of which may have reduced his ability to cope.
I'll point out that Accelerator didn't seem to get a solid hit in despite throwing more than a little in that fight. Either Touma dodged them all or he dodged most and blocked others.
Master Assassin
2009-04-19, 23:56
... Do I have to repeat that what could possibly, and actually, touch Touma first is the power bolt engulfing (and propelling) the speeding projectile and not the projectile itself? So when the power bolt touches Touma's hand it becomes "cancelled" - it loses all of its physical qualities: acceleration, velocity, momentum and kinetic energy - just like that.
But if you add the argument that even as the bolt dissipates into oblivion the projectile used for the railgun can still produce some hurt with the velocity and momentum it had left then I will concur.
Looks like here I can conclude why Misaka is fighting Touma in a very "unsmart" way (being as rash as she is): that everytime she unleashes an attack on Touma based on her powers, every single bit of her electricity that comes in touch with Touma's IB gets cancelled, thus fighting Touma was a great waste of energy (and time) unless she works her way out to get through that annoyance of a hand called the Imagine Breaker. Accelerator on the other hand gets his way easily just because he can use his powers to hurl some actual physical projectiles around to keep Touma under pressure. Note that even though the projectiles are hurled using Accelerator's power, they are moving with a velocity, speed and inertia of their own, enough to cause some real hurt.
not to mention the number and the weight of the projectiles Accelerator is throwing at him.
When IB contacts with Railgun, its primary effect is negated.
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/732/zzz002n.png
Based on the formula from this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railgun), If I = 0, then F = 0.
Sidenote: 空気摩擦でコインが溶けてしまうため射程は50ｍ程。 (atwiki.jp)
It seems the coin will melt after a distance.
50 meters, according to the Railgun manga.
Please, don't present these as solid evidence:
Admit it, this is a mistake by the artist (Fuyukawa Motoi).
I fail to see the mistake. The novel had Touma say he could block a shot from Mikoto's railgun, Fuyukama and his team (you didn't think a manga was a one-man thing, did you?) applied what the novel told them. Considering Kamachi never corrected them on that, I'd actually say that this event making it into the manga proves that it's possible.
What you are doing is taking a theory and presenting it as a fact. There is zero proof that Touma can't block a shot from a Railgun aside from theories.
And this is what you call Flavor Lore (http://www.wowwiki.com/Flavor_lore). Just because a character claims he can do _______ does not mean he can actually do it. Likewise, any explanations given by in-universe characters are not to be taken as fact unless proven otherwise by events in the said universe (like how Stiyl and Kaori claimed that Index couldn't hold more than a year's worth of memories).
On the contrary, it's the exact opposite. A characters words are to be taken as fact until the statement is proven false. Otherwise you'd be opening a pit hole that makes virtually any debate useless, as any explanation for events can be devaluated by saying 'the character is lying' or 'the character does not know what he/she is talking about'. It is undermining the number one source of information in any media product: The characters.
And yes, my ESP not Magic argument holds because for all instances that he has used or tried to use his IB, the initial description holds and could be easily explained using the natural laws when used against ESP, while things get a little messy when dealing with Magic. Now, give me one excerpt from the novel which specifically depicts him blocking a physical ranged attack made possible with the use of ESP and I'll gladly step down.
Being that I neither own the novels not posses a shred of knowledge on the Japanese written language, I'm afraid that is going to be tough for me (the piece of the novel I quoted was translated by someone else).
However, simply claiming 'it was done by magic' does not change that the water spell by Misha was water drawn from the ocean and manipulated by her magic. Magic or ESP, the effect of these attacks are the same: A physical attack manipulated by supernatural force. Even if Touma were to cancel the magic, this should not magically -pardon the pun- reduce the force of the water by any means. It should still have the momentum to crash into Touma with the same force as when it was shot by him. It did not. The natural water manipulated by a supernatural force was reduced to non-lethal velocity merely by touching the imagine breaker.
And according to the laws of physics Mikoto's Railgun when properly analyzed should not even work. All she does is charge a coin and flick it. There are no rails to conduct the currents and accelerate the coin (by the way, those conductors would suffer major damage due to the heat released by the coin, thus even if she would be using her hands as a replacement, she would be frying them) and there is no recoil, despite a real railgun producing recoil equal to the force propelling the projectile (ergo, Mikoto should be flying backwards almost as fast as the coin she launched). Yet all of this doesn't seem to stop Mikoto from causally flicking coins without any side effect. Even ESP goes 'Lol! Physics!' pretty often, so using the "physics dictate that he can't!" argument is quite moot.
Now, there is only one explanation on how he can block the rail gun projectile: it was a mistake, simple as that.
A mistake the original creator did not see fit to correct?
There is zero evidence that he can't? Well now, all I see are claims that he can. Not much evidence there too. Hence we rely on logic.
Three sources that claim, one source that proves, and no claims nor proof that he can't. You're throwing away four sources of evidence for mere conjecture.
Master Assassin
2009-04-20, 08:24
... I think I'm reading so much details I can barely make up (even I am starting to not understand my own explanations XD) simpler statements. Aah, information overflow, information overflow.
... Imagine Breaker. Hmm.
Imagine, Breaker.
So it is something that breaks imaginations, or so how it appears to me. From the way it sounds, it can block powers that was produced by someone's imagination that tries to directly apply to him - or to be accurate, intention towards him no matter what the "intention" is.
So it blocks magic because it came from a source of power created from the intention to affect him directly.
And it also blocks esper abilities because they came from a source of power created from the intention to affect him directly.
So what it actually blocks is what the people intend to do with him with their powers directly used on him.
Examples of use:
Mikoto intends to use the Railgun on him and so fires him a blast. The Railgun is the materialization of her intents and is trying to affect Touma directly. Since such is the nature of Mikoto's attack, his IB basically says "Oh no, you don't," to the railgun.
Stiyl intends to use his magic powers to incinerate Touma, and his fire element attacks are of course a materialization of his intents. As you can see how clear his intents are, of course the same response is invoked by his IB. About Innocentius, since it can infinitely regenerate itself as long as the runes are still intact in its area of effect, the reason why Touma had to run from it is because he is getting overwhelmed by the heat it causes, which is the collateral damage gained from having to face a literal wave of flames continuously. Not to mention the fire which started from burning the rest of the building...
Sherry Cromwell (spelling? I forgot ^^; ) controls her golem with magic, and the golem is a materialization of her intents; although Touma will still have to touch its weak points (where runes are placed on the Golem's body) to dismantle its function, since it is where Sherry's will are directly being placed upon her use of her magic.
Kuroko wants, and I repeat, wants to teleport Touma away, and the ability is a realization of what she intends to do to Touma. Since IB blocks the effects of any "intents" trying to be placed directly upon him be it good or bad, it gets cancelled.
Note that he:
can't block physical attacks because the attacking matter is already in natural existence and is not materialized from "intentions" the attacker intend to do to him,
can't block Accelerator's projectiles because he only merely uses his power to hurl an already existing object that can cause harm. Since the object doesn't have any "intentions" of its own and is moving merely because of something forced it to move to him,
can block the Railgun even though the coin was used as a projectile because - what actually touched him before the coin is the electric bolt that propels it - which is a materialization of Mikoto's intent. Mikoto's whole Railgun is the material form of what she wants to do to Touma too, so when the coin becomes part of the Railgun... so yea. Do not confuse the coin's predicaments with the stuff that came crashing down to Touma and intends to squish him that is moved by Accelerator's powers (which acts like a crane for him).
TL;DR Touma actually destroys the materialization of "imaginations" or, to be exact, "intentions" that are forced upon him. Like, what if an esper wants to "psychically" or a magician wants to "magically" rape (sorry for my choice of verbs :heh: ) him? He can stop it from happening.
MrTerrorist
2009-04-20, 08:30
God i getting confuse with all of these explanations, theories, proofs, claims, contradictions etc.
Master Assassin
2009-04-20, 08:37
Then how simpler you want it to be, if I may ask?
ZeroForever
2009-04-20, 10:55
zzz.... honestly until the author decides to explain exactly how all there skills work down to the finest detail everything is just opinionated conjecture.
the issue that everyone has comes down to if X ability behaves with actual physics like that object of type actually would, from what has been explained of imagine breaker it (cancelling) shouldn't work.
The issue is none of there abilities have a exact reference to RL, and although general information is provided for there abilities we don't have the exact parameters of what there doing. We also really don't know what the exact parameters of 'imagine breaker' are other then what XYZ characters think it does and what we have seen it stop.
So in short, imagine breaker stops the authors imagination and does everything the author wants it to do nothing more nothing less. It may not make sense to us given what we know but it doesn't matter in the end.
Wilfriback
2009-04-20, 17:35
... Imagine Breaker. Hmm.
Imagine, Breaker.
So it is something that breaks imaginations, or so how it appears to me. From the way it sounds, it can block powers that was produced by someone's imagination that tries to directly apply to him - or to be accurate, intention towards him no matter what the "intention" is.
Touma is also fond of telling people that he's going to "break that illusion".
More specifically, he says "I'll kill it... That illusion/fantasy of yours!!" It's actually a pun: The Kanji given for 'Imagine Breaker' is 'Illusion/Fantasy Killer (Genso Goroshi)'. Cue punching things with his right fist.
Also I remember that Vent know some things about the IB that Touma don't.
velvet nightmare
2009-10-04, 10:24
when hurling objects arn't accelerator's and mikoto's ability the same? they both apply forces to an object and move them quickly with the intent to harm something
what i get from previous arguments is that at the point of impact, the rail gun is still applying the force allowing touma to block it, but that's not what a real railgun does right? once the object is airborne, the railgun itself can be taken out of the picture
weaker argument:
isn't it also possible that the author and his/her team don't know how a railgun works and made the mistake, kind of like how the creator of gundam seed was dumb enough bring back mwu because they didn't know how the physics of their own show worked?
MeisterBabylon
2009-10-04, 10:28
That's probably it. From the way the 'railgun' Misaka fires, it's more of an Omglaser! type of attack rather than an actual railgun from say Transformers 2.
when hurling objects arn't accelerator's and mikoto's ability the same? they both apply forces to an object and move them quickly with the intent to harm something
what i get from previous arguments is that at the point of impact, the rail gun is still applying the force allowing touma to block it, but that's not what a real railgun does right? once the object is airborne, the railgun itself can be taken out of the picture
Yes, that would be a valid argument, if not for Touma also blocking Sasha's water blast during the memory swap arc. That was real water manipulated by magic fired straight at Touma, which he blocked and negated completely.
weaker argument:
isn't it also possible that the author and his/her team don't know how a railgun works and made the mistake, kind of like how the creator of gundam seed was dumb enough bring back mwu because they didn't know how the physics of their own show worked?
There's a lot of physics they choose to ignore, true, but the concept of an accelerated coin was quite clearly stated, as were Touma's words that he could block it, even though he darned well knows what a Railgun is.
That's probably it. From the way the 'railgun' Misaka fires, it's more of an Omglaser! type of attack rather than an actual railgun from say Transformers 2.
The laser flash is only done for the looks, rule of cool and all that. Let's not start analyzing these kinds of visual details too deeply.
velvet nightmare
2009-10-04, 12:45
now that i think carefully what a railgun is, isn't mikoto's ability similar to the plasma attack of accelerator?
mikoto uses electricity to create the magnetic field, so isnt that similar to accelerator applying forces to superheat the air into plasma? if that's the case then if he can't block the plasma, he shouldn't be able to block an accelerated penny. the dumbed down version of mikoto's attack wouldn't be different than her walking around with a huge magnet that pushes everything away
i know im probably beating on a dead horse by now, but im the kind of guy who gets excited when science gets applied to anime
is it 'safe' to say that mikoto is a special case in which she falls right in between ESP and magic? what i mean is he can't block accelerator's attacks (which in my book do the same thing a railgun attack) but can block magic impacts like fireballs, water and earth things that are already in motion
MrTerrorist
2009-10-04, 12:50
is it 'safe' to say that mikoto is a special case in which she falls right in between ESP and magic? what i mean is he can't block accelerator's attacks (which in my book do the same thing a railgun attack) but can block magic impacts like fireballs, water and earth things that are already in motion
Are you implying that maybe Mikoto is not only a powerful Level 5 Psychic but a Magic user too?
Now that would be a great twist if it was true!:D
Are you implying that maybe Mikoto is not only a powerful Level 5 Psychic but a Magic user too?
Now that would be a great twist if it was true!:D
It'd be awesome (though perhaps a bit too much mary sueish), but impossible. Remember, psychics cannot use magic, it tears them appart.
now that i think carefully what a railgun is, isn't mikoto's ability similar to the plasma attack of accelerator?
mikoto uses electricity to create the magnetic field, so isnt that similar to accelerator applying forces to superheat the air into plasma?
Well, the funny thing is that the entire 'stop Accelerator from creating a plasma attack' is a plothole of its own. After all, there is no reason why Touma shouldn't have been able to stop it, being that it was created through psychic powers and all. In fact, they never say he can't stop it, Mikoto just assumes he can't.
is it 'safe' to say that mikoto is a special case in which she falls right in between ESP and magic? what i mean is he can't block accelerator's attacks (which in my book do the same thing a railgun attack) but can block magic impacts like fireballs, water and earth things that are already in motion
There are different explanations than this one, which is actually impossible, and its that even if Touma stopped the steel bars raining down on top of him, all he would be doing is reduce the motion of the steel bars to zero. Being that the steel bars are still... y'know... above him, gravity would be its usual bitch and drop the things on top of him anyway. Steel bars don't need psychically enhanced speed to kill people they drop on.
There's also the issue of numbers. Even if he can stop one steel bar, there's half a dozen more ready to hit him. Better to run than risk imminent death, because anything that hits anywhere else than his hand would still do all its usual work.
velvet nightmare
2009-10-04, 14:57
Well, the funny thing is that the entire 'stop Accelerator from creating a plasma attack' is a plothole of its own. After all, there is no reason why Touma shouldn't have been able to stop it, being that it was created through psychic powers and all. In fact, they never say he can't stop it, Mikoto just assumes he can't.
There are different explanations than this one, which is actually impossible, and its that even if Touma stopped the steel bars raining down on top of him, all he would be doing is reduce the motion of the steel bars to zero. Being that the steel bars are still... y'know... above him, gravity would be its usual bitch and drop the things on top of him anyway. Steel bars don't need psychically enhanced speed to kill people they drop on.
good point, didnt remember mikoto's observation
the second point here brings up another thought (im getting too picky probably) if the flying steel beams were flying paralell to the ground, after coming into contact with IB they'd just fall straight to the ground wouldn't they? no harm done to touma, but the ones coming from the sky would have gravity on their side. which makes me wonder what made touma looked like he was 'forced' to dodge everything when he could have stopped some of them if not use them as leverage after they have been stopped
what i wanted to bring up was if mikoto walked around with pennies that weighed 1 ton instead of 1 gram she'd be more deadly to touma?
which also brings up the point of what accelerator's power actually does (using actual physics vectors) you're saying that IB nullifies the forward vector applied by the guy but gravity is left eventually bringing the object straight down
so if accelerator does a railgun attack with a penny, touma would be able to stop it just like with mikoto
shmaster
2009-10-04, 14:59
Yes, that would be a valid argument, if not for Touma also blocking Sasha's water blast during the memory swap arc. That was real water manipulated by magic fired straight at Touma, which he blocked and negated completely.
Gabriel's water have been infused with Telsma, which is why Touma can block it.
And by this statement, the likelyhood of Touma bloking the railgun is that he can.
As the coin is infused with psychic power to speed up, so Touma should be able to cancel the coin's entire acceleration. BUT, the shock wave and the momentum created by the initial acceleration cannot be cancelled, and that is going to blow Touma apart.
Well, the funny thing is that the entire 'stop Accelerator from creating a plasma attack' is a plothole of its own. After all, there is no reason why Touma shouldn't have been able to stop it, being that it was created through psychic powers and all. In fact, they never say he can't stop it, Mikoto just assumes he can't.
Or that it is something she and the Imoutos can do something about. Sitting back and watching other people fight when she can do something doesn't sit well with Mikoto.
There's that, too.
Gabriel's water have been infused with Telsma, which is why Touma can block it.
Yes, and as soon as he touches it, it would have become regular water again, but still regular water with the momentum of the attack. If Touma can't block a railgun, then he shouldn't have been able to block that water attack either.
And I will point out once again, so far we have three sources say that it is possible from Touma's own mouth, and one source actually showing him doing it.
However, there are zero sources proving, or even saying, that he can't.
And I will point out once again, so far we have three sources say that it is possible from Touma's own mouth, and one source actually showing him doing it.
However, there are zero sources proving, or even saying, that he can't.
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e191/Octarinewolf/toumasheildsuiharuandmikoto.jpg
Given that I only have the vaguest idea of what power caused that explosion (making aluminum explode... somehow), I'm not even going to touch that one.
This thread title is a spoiler :D
Ok, maybe that's going too far...
Yes, this is the same concept as Railgun.
The ESP is involved in making that aluminum explode.
The explosion is thus natural, and should'n't be negated.
Ah who cares.
This way, it's more dramatic in the Railgun storyline.
velvet nightmare
2009-10-04, 22:35
As the coin is infused with psychic power to speed up, so Touma should be able to cancel the coin's entire acceleration.
but that's not what a 'rail gun' does, there is no more 'speeding up' of the object once it leaves the 'rails' of the 'gun'. what you're referring to is something self propelled which would mean a rocket or a missile which is the closest thing to anything in real life
BUT, the shock wave and the momentum created by the initial acceleration cannot be cancelled, and that is going to blow Touma apart.
i can tell you from the point of physics, a shockwave or blast wave coming from something the size of the penny is negligible but the momentum is the force of the projectile going forward, which is what we've been trying to determine is able to be stopped or not
for now im probably going to end up agreeing with keroko's points
shmaster
2009-10-04, 23:28
There's that, too.
Yes, and as soon as he touches it, it would have become regular water again, but still regular water with the momentum of the attack. If Touma can't block a railgun, then he shouldn't have been able to block that water attack either.
And I will point out once again, so far we have three sources say that it is possible from Touma's own mouth, and one source actually showing him doing it.
However, there are zero sources proving, or even saying, that he can't.
Gabriel's water just fall apart like same reason the Ars Magna clones simply fell apart when Touma touches it.
The clones are made of regular phsyical material depsite animated by Ars Magna, so by your logic, when Touma toches them, they'll just stop mvoing, not break apart. But the thing is, they did. Regular phsyical material that has been mixed or held together by magical force well dissolve and break apart after Touma touches it (Another example would be Moving Sanctuary, a normal piece of clothing infused with magic), so nothing is left to carry out the momentum. Unlike rail gun, the coin itself is not mixed with esper power just speed up by it, so it is not going to break apart if Touma touches it and thus still carry out the momentum.
but that's not what a 'rail gun' does, there is no more 'speeding up' of the object once it leaves the 'rails' of the 'gun'. what you're referring to is something self propelled which would mean a rocket or a missile which is the closest thing to anything in real life
That is a debate I don't want to get into actually, as I am one of "it is not rail gun but more of a laser" believer.
I think what we should determine here is whether the physical effect created by the supernatural powers are primary or secondary? I am very certain that Touma can cancel out the secondary (the shell created by Katina=Original is a good example), but the description on the primary is still vague.
Seems like Toma's power is not limited to stopping ESP and magical power, it seems to stop the side effect generated by these powers as well, eg the explosive power generated by the aluminum explosion and rail gun projectile's heat and velocity.
However stuff like floating steel bar would still harm him since they tend to drop on top of him when the power is disabled?
Also I find it interesting that his hand can dispel his luck as well, meaning that his power is in effect 24/7?
As I said way back in this thread before it was split off (I can't remember what thread it started it), the problem with assuming the ability to dispel secondary effects is that it leads to bizarre situations where he can undo damage caused by electricity, un-teleport objects, unburn things, and basically reverse time in general. Because that's just what a secondary effect is, the effects that are caused by the supernatural powers. What makes the momentum of a coin a different kind of secondary effect than something being burned by magic fire?
MeisterBabylon
2009-10-05, 02:01
The fact that Touma has always been confident of his ability to block anything means that he's probably been blocking the world of Science before the Walking Cathedral even got to him.
Maybe he can reverse time in general. Maybe Aleistor is Touma from the future after understanding how his power can work. Who knows? They are probably saving the best twist for the last, and while it has been well-researched, even Ryukishi and Umineko has had it's duper-ridiculous moments, much less Railgun World.
I refuse to call this world Index World! Nor shall I continue to call it Toumaverse!
willyvereb
2009-10-05, 03:02
Imagine Breaker is an ability that negates any kind of magic/ESP's effect. Or should I say returns everything to the state before the magic. Mikoto's railgun is still powered by her ESP when it reached Touma so it's been reversed to the way it originally was before Mikoto shooting it at him.
There's an another case where simply negating magic shouldn't possibily reversed the effect. It's when Touma negates the memory-eraesing effect of Aureolus's alchemy. Because the memory shouldn't be existent at all after that, simply negating the magic shouldn't return his memories at all. Afterall it would be like reviving somone after being blasted by a fireball...impossible.
So Touma's IB actually reverses things to the state just before the use of any kind of special power.
That's my theory.
...so he can revive someone who's blasted by a fireball?
MeisterBabylon
2009-10-05, 03:47
As weird as it sounds, that really looks like how it works. Just that the name then becomes a misnom--
...no wait it does! This removes the illusion that the coin is traveling at 1030m/s! After all, it is only the imagination of the ESPer made into reality. Imagine Breaker thus works by giving all magic and science a "reality check", where it returns things to the state of "Absolute Reality".
Does sound like what Touma does in the story thus far, what with him constantly giving everyone reality checks with his long speeches. :D
Gabriel's water just fall apart like same reason the Ars Magna clones simply fell apart when Touma touches it.
The clones are made of regular phsyical material depsite animated by Ars Magna, so by your logic, when Touma toches them, they'll just stop mvoing, not break apart.
Not my logic, the series' logic. It's the series that show us these contradictions. One moment Touma can stop incoming projectiles enhances by magic or psychics, the other moment he can't.
We can argue real life physics all we want, but according to real life physics Mikoto's railgun shouldn't even work at all, so obviously applying physics and saying its impossible is futile to begin with. Various examples show us that Touma can very much block objects enhanced by supernatural powers, Touma himself is convinced he can block a railgun, and we even have the railgun manga showing him do it.
Every single source, from novel to anime, either say or show he can block a railgun. With no evidence of the oposite, why can't he?
I find it amusing that we have this whole thread to argue about what seems to be a plothole. If it says he can, then he can, it just doesn't make much sense so no use arguing about it.
MeisterBabylon
2009-10-05, 07:14
It happens. And this thread got it no where as bad as the Nanoha tech thread. It's just when guys disagree, expect one hell of a fight. =P
...so he can revive someone who's blasted by a fireball?
He didn't restore the memories he lost to the angel's feather when he touched his head after waking up and he doesn't restore the things the Golems destroyed when he deanimates them.
willyvereb
2009-10-05, 11:24
yeah...just the direct cause. But it's good enough to block Mikoto's railgun with it.
The momentum of a coin is no more direct than all the other numerous examples where he couldn't do things. Stop trying to justify it.
The momentum of a coin is no more direct than all the other numerous examples where he couldn't do things. Stop trying to justify it.
Actually in general if the person causing the effect is still concentrating on it [or possibly just still pumping AIM into it] Touma seems to be able to cancel active secondary effects by touching the primary. Style being dismembered, Railgun secondaries, the way the Chainsaw Whip totally collapses when he touches just a small part of it.
While Touma is actively relying on the imagine breaker it appears to be able to provide an area shield that works against active secondary effects. The graviton bomb and Styles Fire Elemental are examples of Touma and people behind him not being effected. Electrokinetic telepathy not working might also be in this category. When he has to rely on this his bad luck seems to get worse for a while, things in this category are mostly among the most powerful we've seen and in generaL are not totally cancelled by the imagine breaker.
Effects that have finished [No longer having AIM input?] don't seem to be affected. The power grid being out due to the Lightning strike on the bridge, Angels Feather, Golem damage to doors, Tree Diagram being destroyed. It isn't much good at reversing entropy.
Like all the other supernatural abilities, Magic, divine or Psychic in this setting, it appears to work at least partially based on what the user thinks it can do. Touma thinks it can stop railgun strikes and so his power does what is necessary. Touma doesn't think it can resurrect Imoutos killed by Accelerator, but whether that is a lack of raw power [if his power was stronger it could], capability [he can't cope with the subconscious calculations necessary to put everything back to normal or he can't reverse entropy] or just be cause he doesn't believe it can is up in the air.
So basically he breaks the laws of physics and even internal consistency because he doesn't understand them. I can live with that.
So basically he breaks the laws of physics and even internal consistency because he doesn't understand them. I can live with that.
He is reasonably internally consistent in his power use. And only Saten and Maika that I can think of haven't yet seriously bent the laws of physics as we know them. And Uihara because we haven't yet seen her power.
This is a setting where normal or better luck is a supernatural blessing from god, there is a measurable psionic field that can generate an anthropomorphic avatar and healing spells powered by imaginary angels. They have a number of additional codicils to our laws of physics.
Uh.. he's not internally consistent at all. Have you even read this thread? That's the entirety of what it's about.
Instead of treating it as an passive ability, I wonder if we should instead treat as an active ability, although a subconscious one.
eg he can dispel a railgun shot since he doesn't know what it was (instinctive block), block the bomb blast (aoe shield) but not able to stop the objects thrown at him by accelerator since he knows logically it would fall on him due to gravity.
Something to note is that Lazard was able to alter his memory, although it got broken once he touched his head, this was when he was unconscious, but teleport girl was not able to teleport him out of the dorm.
MrTerrorist
2009-10-06, 06:29
How about this theory:
Anythings related to science will follow the Laws of Science and anything related to Magic will follow the Laws of Magic.
PS. Don't bother asking me about it. I'm not getting involve with this subject again.
Well , Touma's hand can break all magics . Then he use punch combo to beat down the bad guy.
It works , he beats all the freakings boss badass (Accelerator , The fire guy etc .. )
But against real weapons , he'll be nothing more than dead .
Ice Block
2009-10-07, 06:00
Anythings related to science will follow the Laws of Science and anything related to Magic will follow the Laws of Magic.
This. As I said in my first post (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=2350842&postcount=69) on this topic, magic does not necessarily follow the physical laws. Thus, IB's interaction with magic should not necessarily govern its interaction with ESP, and vice versa.
And as I said in my previous post, obviously, IB is horribly OP and broken in the Railgun Manga (funny how this makes Touma look more badass), so all renditions of IB in said manga and subsequent adaptation are not to be taken too seriously (regarding IB's intended role and power/utility).
Psychic powers also fail to adhere to the laws of physics, so this argument is kind of moot to begin with.
Ice Block
2009-10-07, 08:01
Psychic powers also fail to adhere to the laws of physics, so this argument is kind of moot to begin with.
Elaborate.
MrTerrorist
2009-10-07, 08:21
Here's a better explanation:
"It's just a show, I should really just relax."
"It's just a show, I should really just relax."
"It's just a show, You should really just relax."
"It's just a show, You should really just relax."
"It's just a show, We should really just relax."
"It's just a show, We should really just relax."
PS: I not getting involve with this debate anymore so leave me outta of it.
Nobody is forcing you in this thread. If you want out of it, all you have to do is stop posting in this thread.
This. As I said in my first post (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=2350842&postcount=69) on this topic, magic does not necessarily follow the physical laws. Thus, IB's interaction with magic should not necessarily govern its interaction with ESP, and vice versa.
And as I said in my previous post, obviously, IB is horribly OP and broken in the Railgun Manga (funny how this makes Touma look more badass), so all renditions of IB in said manga and subsequent adaptation are not to be taken too seriously (regarding IB's intended role and power/utility).
Except that Railgun was written by the same author that wrote Index, which means there is no reason to assume it works differently in either.
Elaborate.
As we've discovered in the episode 1 thread, Mikoto's Railgun fires a coin at speed barely matching some of our more powerful rifles, which also fire far more effective projectiles, yet she causes tremendously more damage. A true railgun shot also causes massive amounts of heat, and a recoil of the same force as that propelling the projectile. In other words, realistically speaking Mikoto would be blasted away by the same shot she fires.
According to physics Mikoto's Railgun would either be not nearly as powerful, or as deadly for her as it is for her target.
Which leads me to one of the explanations. Of course, the most obvious one is that Kamachi went with a bit of physics to make things sound scientific, then added copious amounts of rule of cool to make things work. However another, more in universe explanation was given by our favourite loli sensei. When she explained psychic powers, she explained that psychic powers are basically the user replacing normal reality with their own.
In other words: The very basic principle of psychic powers is saying "screw you" to physics.
This means that psychic powers don't work because they're physically possible, they're possible because the user thinks they're possible. Kind of like Orks in Warhammer 40K, if you're familiar with them.
MrTerrorist
2009-10-07, 08:31
Kind of like Orks in Warhammer 40K, if you're familiar with them.
Like this one?:
If Orks believe Red paint makes their Rides go faster, then their Rides will go faster because their united Psychic powers made it so.
Exactly. It works because they think it works.
hayate-sama
2009-10-07, 13:32
This series screwed Physic itself. Look back to episode 1, if the think that Mikito threw at Touma is electric or lightning than it will travel with the speed of light, how could Touma fast enough to block something like that. BTW have you see in real life that any equipment capable of fire a energy blast ?
Moreover, in this series, some self-proclaim ESP power are too unrealistic like Kuroko 's teleport any body knew how it work, the term teleport itself are too unrealistc.
Von Himmel
2009-10-07, 13:50
As we've discovered in the episode 1 thread, Mikoto's Railgun fires a coin at speed barely matching some of our more powerful rifles, which also fire far more effective projectiles, yet she causes tremendously more damage. A true railgun shot also causes massive amounts of heat, and a recoil of the same force as that propelling the projectile. In other words, realistically speaking Mikoto would be blasted away by the same shot she fires.
According to physics Mikoto's Railgun would either be not nearly as powerful, or as deadly for her as it is for her target.
Which leads me to one of the explanations. Of course, the most obvious one is that Kamachi went with a bit of physics to make things sound scientific, then added copious amounts of rule of cool to make things work. However another, more in universe explanation was given by our favourite loli sensei. When she explained psychic powers, she explained that psychic powers are basically the user replacing normal reality with their own.
In other words: The very basic principle of psychic powers is saying "screw you" to physics.
This means that psychic powers don't work because they're physically possible, they're possible because the user thinks they're possible. Kind of like Orks in Warhammer 40K, if you're familiar with them.
In a way, that reminds me of Reality Marble. :heh:
Considering the fact of the force of the recoil that should hit Mikoto when she used a railgun, I think your argument is quite valid.
Aaah ~ this thread is so confusing @_@
Ice Block
2009-10-07, 14:25
Except that Railgun was written by the same author that wrote Index, which means there is no reason to assume it works differently in either.
I was under the impression that she was merely providing the overall layout of the plot and characters, while the mangaka, Fuyukawa Motoi, was the one who would actually set the atmosphere and draw the actions and expressions. Why do I assume that Railgun's IB is broken? Because I have not yet found any [translated] novel text that agrees with its exploits in the Railgun manga.
As we've discovered in the episode 1 thread, Mikoto's Railgun fires a coin at speed barely matching some of our more powerful rifles, which also fire far more effective projectiles, yet she causes tremendously more damage. A true railgun shot also causes massive amounts of heat, and a recoil of the same force as that propelling the projectile. In other words, realistically speaking Mikoto would be blasted away by the same shot she fires.
This is where you seem to be confused. This "recoil" force felt by the wielder actually comes from the original [recoil] force caused by the rails pushing on the support material (which happen to be the breech in traditional railguns) in a direction opposite that of the projectile's. Now, how is Mikoto's railgun set up?
The projectile is the coin, obviously. As it is made of conductive material, then it also serves as the armature.
She is the power source.
The rails are not really rails. Instead, she summons two (four even) parallel electrical currents going in opposite directions.
Somehow she is able to control these currents perfectly such that they are traveling along the same length and are able to stay on their initial positions. No wonder she's a Level 5 -- if maintaining such conditions are easy enough, then we would be seeing at least Level 3 electromasters shooting high-velocity railguns.
Now, what happens when the circuit is closed (when the coin is tossed into the system)? The Lorentz force created by the current accelerates the armature away from the power supply. In traditional rail guns, the recoil effect is in the form of the rails pushing at the breech, as said above. Here, the resulting recoil force accelerates air occupying the area where the current is flowing (which is accounted for in all illustrations so far), causing a gust of wind flowing towards Mikoto (and continuing behind her, etc.). Reasons why this is not dangerous to her (as someone who has complete control over the system) should be obvious.
This means that psychic powers don't work because they're physically possible, they're possible because the user thinks they're possible. Kind of like Orks in Warhammer 40K, if you're familiar with them.
Not really familiar with Warhammer. I'm more familiar with WoW spacegoats and Goblin/Gnome engineering though (I believe you're familiar with these too :)).
Yeah, she's not pushing it off of herself, she's pushing it off the air. It's more like she's constructing an invisible railgun in midair than her holding a gun.
I was under the impression that she was merely providing the overall layout of the plot and characters, while the mangaka, Fuyukawa Motoi, was the one who would actually set the atmosphere and draw the actions and expressions. Why do I assume that Railgun's IB is broken? Because I have not yet found any [translated] novel text that agrees with its exploits in the Railgun manga.
Kazuma Kamachi is noted as the author of the Railgun manga, while Motoi Fuyukawa is noted as the illustrator. If Motoi was responsible for writing much of the story, he would be in a co-author position at the very least I'd say.
This is where you seem to be confused. This "recoil" force felt by the wielder actually comes from the original [recoil] force caused by the rails pushing on the support material (which happen to be the breech in traditional railguns) in a direction opposite that of the projectile's. Now, how is Mikoto's railgun set up?
The projectile is the coin, obviously. As it is made of conductive material, then it also serves as the armature.
She is the power source.
The rails are not really rails. Instead, she summons two (four even) parallel electrical currents going in opposite directions.
Somehow she is able to control these currents perfectly such that they are traveling along the same length and are able to stay on their initial positions. No wonder she's a Level 5 -- if maintaining such conditions are easy enough, then we would be seeing at least Level 3 electromasters shooting high-velocity railguns.
Now, what happens when the circuit is closed (when the coin is tossed into the system)? The Lorentz force created by the current accelerates the armature away from the power supply. In traditional rail guns, the recoil effect is in the form of the rails pushing at the breech, as said above. Here, the resulting recoil force accelerates air occupying the area where the current is flowing (which is accounted for in all illustrations so far), causing a gust of wind flowing towards Mikoto (and continuing behind her, etc.). Reasons why this is not dangerous to her (as someone who has complete control over the system) should be obvious.
Hmm, I see, yes I did seem to be confused there, thanks for pointing that out. A question, though. Shouldn't the casual flick of the fingers she uses to launch the coin still be very dangerous? Not to mention the air pressure created by the coin is enough to tear apart concrete.
Not really familiar with Warhammer. I'm more familiar with WoW spacegoats and Goblin/Gnome engineering though (I believe you're familiar with these too :)).
Yes I am. :p Orkish engineering works a tad differently though. Most of the time they just bang sheets of metal together, and somehow get things to work. Meanhwile, if some other race picks up such an Orkish device, they can't get it to work no matter what they try.
Shouldn't the casual flick of the fingers she uses to launch the coin still be very dangerous? Not to mention the air pressure created by the coin is enough to tear apart concrete.
Rewatching the prologue to episode 1 of index, it looks like the projectile doesn't hit max speed for several meters, damage to the road surface doesn't start until after it has passed Touma despite being a horizontal shot.
Orkish engineering works a tad differently though. Most of the time they just bang sheets of metal together, and somehow get things to work. Meanhwile, if some other race picks up such an Orkish device, they can't get it to work no matter what they try.
Not all Ork engineering is that heavily psychic Fiat. Commissar Cain and company acquire and use dozens of ork vehicles during the Liberation of Perlia. Jurgen even drives some and he's radiates a Psychic Null field.
Rewatching the prologue to episode 1 of index, it looks like the projectile doesn't hit max speed for several meters, damage to the road surface doesn't start until after it has passed Touma despite being a horizontal shot.
... I'm not an expert on physics, but don't ballistics usually work the other way around?
Not all Ork engineering is that heavily psychic Fiat. Commissar Cain and company acquire and use dozens of ork vehicles during the Liberation of Perlia. Jurgen even drives some and he's radiates a Psychic Null field.
Ah, yeah you're right, I might have been a bit unclear in that. :heh:
BaltazarDZ
2009-10-09, 10:29
... I'm not an expert on physics, but don't ballistics usually work the other way around?
Lol.. dragging real life physics in fantasy story.. that said...
For a gun the more the bullet travels the slower it gets due to air friction. However it's not like Mikoto flips the coin with an ungodly force. She flips it and then accelerates it with her powers. Which means the path she accelerates the coin might be longer than just few cm. That would mean that the coin would reach its maximum speed after a while.
... I'm not an expert on physics, but don't ballistics usually work the other way around?
Only once the round leaves the barrel. But if she's projecting continuous magnetic fields into the air the projectile will accelerate until it reaches the end of them. Like a Gyrojet you'd get a lowish launch speed, acceleration for a period and the a ballistic flight.
It's possible that she can project the driving fields further than the coins can survive. Induction from the driving field may be as much to blame for them melting as friction.
MeisterBabylon
2009-10-09, 20:42
Not all Ork engineering is that heavily psychic Fiat. Commissar Cain and company acquire and use dozens of ork vehicles during the Liberation of Perlia. Jurgen even drives some and he's radiates a Psychic Null field.But- but Commissar Cain is a Touma-type Sue! Sort of. :uhoh:
Only once the round leaves the barrel. But if she's projecting continuous magnetic fields into the air the projectile will accelerate until it reaches the end of them. Like a Gyrojet you'd get a lowish launch speed, acceleration for a period and the a ballistic flight.
It's possible that she can project the driving fields further than the coins can survive. Induction from the driving field may be as much to blame for them melting as friction.I can compare this to an ESPer lifting a car several tens of times heavier than her own weight. Even if she is able to lift the car due to the rank, if reaction force is transmitted back to her, she'd buckle because of her own body being unable to cope. I doubt that is the case with ESP fields though.
Hence, I think your gyrojet comparison works very well. Misaka gives the coin once it drops back to her hand level an initial small acceleration with a finger flick, then greatly accelerates it with the field, leaving her unaffected by any tremendous reaction recoil. Just like a gyrojet bullet. :D
Touma can block Misaka . Look at 1st episode in S1 and 2nd episode in Railgun .
Master Assassin
2009-10-10, 13:23
Touma can block Misaka .
I worry for Misaka if this means that his Imagine Breaker cancels even his natural desire for a possible sexual relationship (not just with Misaka, but pretty much anyone who catches his interest). :uhoh:
willyvereb
2009-10-10, 14:03
lol...cockblocked by your own left hand?...wicked idea.
(I pity Touma...again)
No wonder he keep screaming out loud about his misfortune
typhonsentra
2009-10-10, 19:59
People make this way more complex than they have to: His power negates anything directly related to the supernatural. Side effects of the super natural occurance (Say, Misaka's lightning hits a gas barrel and causes an explosion) however are not negated, hence the difference between Misaka's power and Accelerator's. Misaka's power continuously pushes the "bullet" forward, otherwise it wouldn't be shown as working like a beam weapon now would it? Accererator's power probably works much closer to the way some of you think Misaka's "Railgun" does.
Even if he cancels the acceleration (push), he can't stop the speed (momentum).
orangejuicetang
2009-10-10, 23:55
7 Pages on the same topic? Well, here's my 2 cents.
If your talking about Toumu not blocking the beams sent at him by Accelerator, did he ever try to block them? After all, Toumu's limits are kinda ill-defined. For the railgun, let's just pretend that Misaka did shoot it at him for now. That scene made it seem alot like Toumu blocked the coin on pure reflex. I seriously doubt he had time to think "hmm, should I try to dodge this? Or try to nullify it?" It was too fast, and probably way too fast to be dodged. On the other hand, for the I-beams, chances are they were fast but not too fast to be dodged. Perhaps he could nullify it, but wouldn't it be safer to just dodge it instead? Dodge the attacks you can dodge and nullify the attacks you are absolutely sure you can nullify or when dodging isn't an option due to it coming at you too fast or for some other reason.
And plus it's magic. Who really knows?
Maybe in he kinda leveled up? xD Or maybe the coin disintegrates,leaving a bolt of electricity?
I fail at physics.
BaltazarDZ
2009-10-12, 10:02
Well basically Accelerators power was changing the vector values of anything. And Mikoto was able to control and generate electricity.
So if Mikoto creates electricity which is supernatural for any kind of goal, for example shooting the railgun, then Touma can stop it.
However in Accelerators case it's more like this... A piece of building is falling down. He changes it's direction so it falls on Touma. So even assuming he cancels the supernatural vector changes it's not like the building is gonna teleport back to it's previous falling place. It will simply fall down.
Same with the I-Beams. He would have canceled the vector changes and make it return it in it's previous state which would make a huge ass explosion anyway.
shmaster
2009-10-13, 05:03
In a way, that reminds me of Reality Marble. :heh:
You know what, this is actually a very good analogy. At the bottom of thing, all the esper abilities are the same, invading natural laws with your own Personal Reality. And the AIM Field is essentially the same as Reality Marble, a sepreate domain with its own rules created by someone's will in middle of a natural world.
.....though, by this train of thinking, magic and ESP power are one and the same thing, just powered by different Reality Marbles.
Magic is actually barrowing the laws from other alien world occupy by the gods and other mythical beings to bent the laws of this world. While ESPers is using the law from the Personal Reality or AIM Field (and since AIM Field is an alien world in itself, which means that the alien world occupied by the gods can be considered as an AIM Fierld too, just consists of the gods' personal relaities) to bent the law of the world. So Imagine Breaker is not "erasing supernatural power" but simpyl does what its name does, breaking the imagination of somebody else.
MeisterBabylon
2009-10-13, 08:31
That's what I have been saying all this while! :heh:
orangejuicetang
2009-10-13, 13:07
You know what, this is actually a very good analogy. At the bottom of thing, all the esper abilities are the same, invading natural laws with your own Personal Reality. And the AIM Field is essentially the same as Reality Marble, a sepreate domain with its own rules created by someone's will in middle of a natural world.
.....though, by this train of thinking, magic and ESP power are one and the same thing, just powered by different Reality Marbles.
Time for a quick explanation of Reality Marbles. Technically, what Reality Marbles do is materialize the caster's inner world into the outer world, or if you want to be technical about it, their "soul". Reality marbles aren't really powers, they're more like Boundary Fields, like the fuzetsu from Shakugan no Shana. It creates an area in which the laws of reality can be broken in a specific way. However, in Index, it's more like the powers themselves break reality in a certain way, but they don't need to be within a boundary field to do so.
BaltazarDZ
2009-10-13, 14:32
But we can assume that Reality Marbles doesn't have to be bound to a specific size or shape. So one could create a lightning shaped Reality Marble which would contain lightning.
orangejuicetang
2009-10-13, 16:55
But we can assume that Reality Marbles doesn't have to be bound to a specific size or shape. So one could create a lightning shaped Reality Marble which would contain lightning.
... I think your misunderstanding what a Reality Marble really is. But that is neither here nor there nor is it on topic.
To get it back on topic.
Can his power nullify other people who had the power to cancel magic? Let's just say Asuna's magic cancel ability from Negima. Toumu touches her with his right hand. Whose power gets nullified? And does it even matter? Nullifying a power nullifier.
Marcus H.
2009-10-13, 19:54
Just my two cents on this topic:
Mikoto's lightning (like all lightning) doesn't travel at the speed of light, though it is marginally faster than the speed of sound.
Touma lied at Episode 1 when he said he could block railguns since Mikoto didn't fire her coin directly towards him. So, the only thing certain here is the fact that he can block Mikoto's lightning bolts.
Touma couldn't use his Imagine Breaker on Accelerator's projectiles because of the fact that they are no longer connected to him the moment he uses his ability on them. Accelerator's power is vector manipulation and only that, isn't it?
orangejuicetang
2009-10-13, 22:25
Okay. I went back and watched the scene I think is in question, and I want to ask this. Accelerator's power is vector manipulation, right? So he hits those beams at Toumu and give those beams a very fast velocity. Now let's say Toumu cancels this, if we assume he can, right? Wouldn't that just stop the velocity that it was manipulated, but not the other initial velocity? For example, say he kicks the beam and manipulates it velocity so it shoots at Toumu at 30m/s (just a random number). Let's say Toumu cancels this velocity manipulation. So does the beam go back to zero velocity? No, I think the beam would slow, but not stop, as the kick itself would have given the beam an initial velocity as well. There is a difference between be hit by a beam moving at 30m/s and a beam moving at 2 m/s, but the latter would be bad as well because it would stun him a bit and render him unable to block or dodge the next beams aimed straight at him. Just some random thoughts that came to my head.
In other words: The very basic principle of psychic powers is saying "screw you" to physics.
This means that psychic powers don't work because they're physically possible, they're possible because the user thinks they're possible. Kind of like Orks in Warhammer 40K, if you're familiar with them.
Thank you, now i can't get over the image of Kuroko as a Warboss.
So this means that the shots from Misaka's Railgun will be even more deadlier when it's a red coin? :heh:
With a normal kick, you can't even make it go further than a centimeter...
And I doubt he manipulated velocity.
See how the beams bent?
He probably concentrated all the force into his hand flips and kicks.
Okay. I went back and watched the scene I think is in question, and I want to ask this. Accelerator's power is vector manipulation, right? So he hits those beams at Toumu and give those beams a very fast velocity. Now let's say Toumu cancels this, if we assume he can, right? Wouldn't that just stop the velocity that it was manipulated, but not the other initial velocity? For example, say he kicks the beam and manipulates it velocity so it shoots at Toumu at 30m/s (just a random number). Let's say Toumu cancels this velocity manipulation. So does the beam go back to zero velocity? No, I think the beam would slow, but not stop, as the kick itself would have given the beam an initial velocity as well. There is a difference between be hit by a beam moving at 30m/s and a beam moving at 2 m/s, but the latter would be bad as well because it would stun him a bit and render him unable to block or dodge the next beams aimed straight at him. Just some random thoughts that came to my head.
When you yourself can kick the beam at 2m/s over a significant distance, tell us about it.
Accelerator isn't incredible Hulk, you know?
shmaster
2009-10-14, 04:14
Time for a quick explanation of Reality Marbles. Technically, what Reality Marbles do is materialize the caster's inner world into the outer world, or if you want to be technical about it, their "soul". Reality marbles aren't really powers, they're more like Boundary Fields, like the fuzetsu from Shakugan no Shana. It creates an area in which the laws of reality can be broken in a specific way. However, in Index, it's more like the powers themselves break reality in a certain way, but they don't need to be within a boundary field to do so.
The thing is, Esper's power naturally is a boundary feild. Why? Because every esper generates AIM naturally (which is their Personal Reality thus their power) and AIM naturally forms AIM Feild, and only within that feild Esper power can work. In other words esper power is the manifestation of Personal Reality=AIM, thus the etxend of the AIM Feild is the extent of their power.
MeisterBabylon
2009-10-14, 04:26
Thank you, now i can't get over the image of Kuroko as a Warboss.
So this means that the shots from Misaka's Railgun will be even more deadlier when it's a red coin? :heh:A Grot lass orgin' fer som lovin' ya? :D
That only works if she thinks a red coin travels 3 times faster. ;) Though she must have red somewhere, since she's already firing at 3 Times the speed of sound...
...oh wait she's red in the face. :uhoh:
*barely makes an invulnerable save against a S10 AP1 game coin*
That said, I just think Misaka herself leaves Fio engineers scratching their heads in wonder and going, "...that psyker just did what?!". I know I wished my Broadsides were little middle school girls after being introduced to Misaka last season. :heh:
People make this way more complex than they have to: His power negates anything directly related to the supernatural. Side effects of the super natural occurance (Say, Misaka's lightning hits a gas barrel and causes an explosion) however are not negated, hence the difference between Misaka's power and Accelerator's. Misaka's power continuously pushes the "bullet" forward, otherwise it wouldn't be shown as working like a beam weapon now would it? Accererator's power probably works much closer to the way some of you think Misaka's "Railgun" does.
Railguns are not magic or fictional. They really exist. I've made one for a physics class once. They have properties that can be verified by reference to reality. They do not work at all like you seem to think they do. Even if she was continuously accelerating it all along its path, it would still have momentum after the electricity was negated. You're just wrong, sorry.
Railguns are not magic or fictional.
Neither is lightning. Or water. Yet Touma can block both, and in the later case even negate the momentum of that water.
It's not as clear cut as you make it sound. There's a lot of contradictions even in the source material itself, but we have three sources stating he can, and one source showing he can. Yet no source saying -or showing- he can't.
I think he can, I just think it doesn't make much sense for him to. I just don't like it when people act as if it's straightforward and obvious that he should be able to.
MeisterBabylon
2009-10-15, 23:23
Erm why can't we be straightforward when canon, however much we disagree, shows that he can...?
Because it makes very little sense.
Edit: Basically, I admit that he can do it, but people defending his ability to do it as if it makes perfect sense for him to be able to is silly. He can only do it because the plot calls for it and the writer probably didn't think about it very much.
MeisterBabylon
2009-10-16, 00:39
I don't understand your stand. Ever since he could block it, I've only seen people trying to find an explanation that would explain how it works, as canon forces us to re-examine the facts. Saying it doesn't make sense, that the author made a mistake, seems more like you've given up.
We've pretty much reached a consensus that it's the inconsistence.
People used Physics knowledge to argue that it's not viable.
Others used what happened in Railgun to argue that it happened.
We just left it at that, and discussed similar things times over.
Marcus H.
2009-10-16, 09:16
Touma can't reject anything Accelerator throws because objects thrown =/= vectors of those objects. Also, Imagine Breaker's power requires physical contact for it to work (though I believe dispelling his luck is a massive loophole to this; IB's powers might not be involved in his eternal bad luck streak). Since vectors are not physical in nature and they are no longer connected to the manipulator the moment the vector change occurs, they can't be affected by Touma's powers.
Also, we should avoid using real-life physics into everything since not everything is how it happens in real-life.
typhonsentra
2009-10-16, 18:43
Railguns are not magic or fictional. They really exist. I've made one for a physics class once. They have properties that can be verified by reference to reality. They do not work at all like you seem to think they do. Even if she was continuously accelerating it all along its path, it would still have momentum after the electricity was negated. You're just wrong, sorry.
You misunderstand why I put it in quotations. What I'm suggesting is that her attack doesn't work the same way as an actual railgun, which actually makes sense seeing as how real rail guns don't actually fire out electrical energy, only the bullet fired exits the weapon. That's not the case in this series, hence the quotations.
Heh. One thing to consider... if Touma is psychic it entirely possible that he rejects supernatural related stuff that he THINKS he can reject. Just like with that alchemist idiot...
Dean_the_Young
2009-10-18, 14:34
Heh. One thing to consider... if Touma is psychic it entirely possible that he rejects supernatural related stuff that he THINKS he can reject. Just like with that alchemist idiot...
Isn't that what an esper is? They can do something simply because they think they can? Like Clarste said...
I find it amusing that we have this whole thread to argue about what seems to be a plothole. If it says he can, then he can, it just doesn't make much sense so no use arguing about it.Which not only covers Touma, but every other esper in the series as well. Let's take Misaka for example: how, pray tell, does controlling electricity make a chain whip possible? Or accelerator: even if you can change vectors, how does that enable acting as a computer? By strict laws of phsycis, it doesn't. But they think it does, and so it happens. Which is what esper powers in Index are all about. Greater powers are obtainable by people broadening their imagination/mental strength. Technically, there shouldn't be a reason for any limit of esper power.
Now, my take is: hasn't Touma been an esper from the start? Call him whatever level you want, but so long as his power is esper directed (it works because he expects it to), it's less plot hole and more simple mental directive. The limits of his power are, as with all other espers, what he believes them to be. And his understanding of what his limits should be is probably close to what dahak suggests:
Actually in general if the person causing the effect is still concentrating on it [or possibly just still pumping AIM into it] Touma seems to be able to cancel active secondary effects by touching the primary. Style being dismembered, Railgun secondaries, the way the Chainsaw Whip totally collapses when he touches just a small part of it.
While Touma is actively relying on the imagine breaker it appears to be able to provide an area shield that works against active secondary effects. The graviton bomb and Styles Fire Elemental are examples of Touma and people behind him not being effected. Electrokinetic telepathy not working might also be in this category. When he has to rely on this his bad luck seems to get worse for a while, things in this category are mostly among the most powerful we've seen and in generaL are not totally cancelled by the imagine breaker.
Effects that have finished [No longer having AIM input?] don't seem to be affected. The power grid being out due to the Lightning strike on the bridge, Angels Feather, Golem damage to doors, Tree Diagram being destroyed. It isn't much good at reversing entropy.
Like all the other supernatural abilities, Magic, divine or Psychic in this setting, it appears to work at least partially based on what the user thinks it can do. Touma thinks it can stop railgun strikes and so his power does what is necessary. Touma doesn't think it can resurrect Imoutos killed by Accelerator, but whether that is a lack of raw power [if his power was stronger it could], capability [he can't cope with the subconscious calculations necessary to put everything back to normal or he can't reverse entropy] or just be cause he doesn't believe it can is up in the air.
Now, personally, I would expect that Touma's ability could be strengthened if he mentally believed it should.
Where, exactly, does his hand end? What boundary of cells separates yes from no? Is it his palm? His wrist? Why stop there? It's similar to the mountain of sand question: if I have 10,000 grains of sand that we agree is a mountain, how about 9,999? What happens if I take one more? Is one grain a mountain?
Similarly, if Touma (or any similar esper) were to ask such questions, I would expect to see the power inch down across their body.
In some respects, we saw something like that: when summoning the angel for Index, Touma was kicked out lest his hand interrupt the ceremony. But why? His hand wouldn't be touching anything except the air around him... which is touching the air around it, which expands to the ceremony itself. Even indirectly he is affecting the ceremony (and his luck in general) because he expects to.
Treating Touma's power as an ESP ability, ie affected by his perceptions, simplifies everything, and makes seeming contradictions less plot-hole and more basic esper nonsense.
If we were to classify Touma's ability as a power, what level would you guys rate his 'Imagine Breaker'?
I would personally rate it at a level 3.
Power scale alone, it would rate a level 4, not 5 since we know that it has limits but -1 level since he does not seems to have much control over it. I'll rate it a 5 if it every goes full body mode like the accelerator's
Also, anyone else thinks that his power and MO from MX0 is similar?
I'd rate it level 5 because it cancels out anything. In that sense, it doesn't have any limitations. It's perfectly accurate and powerful and whatnot. Possibly level 6, depending on what that means exactly. I'm assuming that the levels measure the power of the ability, rather than the power of the user. Accelerator isn't level 5 because he's unbeatable, he's level 5 because his power works on everything perfectly efficiently.
As for similarities... Anti-Magic (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AntiMagic) is a pretty common thing.
Marcus H.
2009-10-28, 09:11
I agree; he could be a Level 5 since he was able to dispel the abilities of both Accelerator and Mikoto and only Kaori has managed to injure him without sustaining injuries herself. Although how his ability works and can be classified is hindering him to be a Level anything.
Seems to me that there might be two kinds of Level 0's: the Unclassified (can't land on a Level Classification because of ability) and the Normals (like Tsuchimikado and Pierce). But well, that's just my two cents.
tsunade666
2009-10-28, 10:38
I rate him as level 1 or 0. His imagine breaker is only on his hand and stays their. If its level is higher then it could cover the whole body or can create a spot on the surroundings where super natural phenomena wouldn't exist.
And tsuchimikado has an esper ability. His ability let's him revive or regenerate himself after killing himself from his magic.
Wilfriback
2009-10-28, 11:03
I rate him 0.
Tsuchimikado is rated 0 because his abililty is passive, he said somthing about doesn't matter how many times multiplies 0 it always be 0.
WildArms
2009-10-28, 11:22
Railguns are not magic or fictional. They really exist. I've made one for a physics class once. They have properties that can be verified by reference to reality. They do not work at all like you seem to think they do. Even if she was continuously accelerating it all along its path, it would still have momentum after the electricity was negated. You're just wrong, sorry.
So... now we can do railguns in physic classes? great! whats next? bazookas?
LockeManuel
2009-10-28, 11:23
0, because... well, Touma can dispel supernatural powers... but he can't do anything else.
Accelerator with his gun -> Touma is dead meat...
WildArms
2009-10-28, 11:25
0, because... well, Touma can dispel supernatural powers... but he can't do anything else.
Accelerator with his gun -> Touma is dead meat...
But we must remember touma's ability is not only to block... there was something else he did more than block... and it was to RUN! and strangely that strategy works for him
LockeManuel
2009-10-28, 11:33
Oh, then he has other strategies, like "dispel that mahoujin and the ceiling will fall on your enemy" (IB required) or "delete the runes ink with the fire sprinkler system"
So... now we can do railguns in physic classes? great! whats next? bazookas?
Well, I did make one. I'm not sure what else there is to say. It's not like they're inherently big weapons, it's just a way of moving something with magnetism. You can scale it up or down by changing the power or the rail length. The one I made was pretty small and could basically knock down cans.
Ice Block
2009-10-28, 12:34
Let's take Misaka for example: how, pray tell, does controlling electricity make a chain whip possible? Or accelerator: even if you can change vectors, how does that enable acting as a computer?
Think deeper, do a little research, and open your mind. Only then will you see the possibilities. Remember, we're not talking about how they do it, but what they are doing. For example:
How does controlling electricity make a chain whip possible? What holds the iron together? What causes electrical currents?
How can Accelerator reprogram your brain? What makes up our memories and consciousness? What processes happen in the brain that allow it to function?
Science is the expansive, never-ending search for knowledge. What may not make sense (to some) now may be common knowledge 200 years from now -- history has taught us much. The more you know... ;)
Hint: Electricity is magnetism. Note that railguns are also magnetism.
Dean_the_Young
2009-10-28, 16:36
Think deeper, do a little research, and open your mind. Only then will you see the possibilities. Remember, we're not talking about how they do it, but what they are doing. For example:
How does controlling electricity make a chain whip possible? What holds the iron together? What causes electrical currents?
How can Accelerator reprogram your brain? What makes up our memories and consciousness? What processes happen in the brain that allow it to function?
Science is the expansive, never-ending search for knowledge. What may not make sense (to some) now may be common knowledge 200 years from now -- history has taught us much. The more you know... ;)Science also teaches you what is not possible. Physics demonstrates why things don't work. And biological precision, capacity, and conception are dwarfed by the infinite variables that have an effect on anything.
Psychic powers in Index work on the rule of cool and whatever-I-want-it-to psychic powers, not the actual implementation of the precise abilities described. Accelerator's power to change the vector of whatever he touches, for example, fails at the point that he isn't touching the neurons, brain matter, or inner body parts one would have to to 'reprogram' anything by touch. There are so many layers-within-layers involved that Accelerator's stated power would not work that way.
(Then again, the whole Accelerator arc was rather ridiculous at various points as well. Windmills don't make wind, electricity doesn't starve air like that, and a project to kill 20,000 people, even at just a rate of 2 a day (not supported in anime, where it was about one a day) would take over 27 years.)
Index plays with bad science and loose internal logic. That's fine, so long as you recognize it.
Hint: Electricity is magnetism. Note that railguns are also magnetism.Note also that she doesn't use an actual railgun, or else Touma couldn't block it. :heh:
Anyone saw the railgun in transformers? I was watching with my friend who watches index too.
We were like, 'lol railgun.'
The railgun is produced by her ESP,so isn't it still supernatural?
MeisterBabylon
2009-10-28, 20:42
I play Tau in Warhammer 40K. I too wish my Railgun was this cute.
As in really, Misaka gets a 2+ invulnerable save in close combat just by making that Episode 4 scared face, and forcing her opponent, even if they are Fearless, to take a leadership test or consolidate backwards! I want a Railgun like that!!! :eek:
Note also that she doesn't use an actual railgun, or else Touma couldn't block it. :heh:
Didn't we establish that Touma can probably block it because he thinks he can? I feel like you're applying the "lolanimephysics" to the wrong side of the situation.
shmaster
2009-10-28, 23:02
(Then again, the whole Accelerator arc was rather ridiculous at various points as well. Windmills don't make wind, electricity doesn't starve air like that, and a project to kill 20,000 people, even at just a rate of 2 a day (not supported in anime, where it was about one a day) would take over 27 years.)
? I thought it is becuase there is no wind but the windmill is still moving and the electricity is moving the windmill directly by leaking intot he engine part. Would that really work is still questionable.
Any way, the project of killing 20000 Sisters actually was not meant to be finished, technically, it is not a project to let Accelerator evolve at all. The whole project is a huge disguise to hide Alietser's true intention on expanding the AIM field.
tsunade666
2009-10-29, 05:48
About the thing that accelerator touch. His still touching it as a whole. The body of the person and its all connected as long as its not outside of the body.
And touma can still stop railgun but even he stop the power of it the momentum that has been inputted on the coin will still hurt him.... I think.
And what's the point of arguing real life physics on a fictional work. Even though its been suggested as psifi and has science applied its still funny to question it to much based on your own knowledge of stuff.
About the thing that accelerator touch. His still touching it as a whole. The body of the person and its all connected as long as its not outside of the body.
And touma can still stop railgun but even he stop the power of it the momentum that has been inputted on the coin will still hurt him.... I think.
And what's the point of arguing real life physics on a fictional work. Even though its been suggested as psifi and has science applied its still funny to question it to much based on your own knowledge of stuff.
Because some people will feel uneasy about the stuff happening xD Like the recent darker than black episode.
Ice Block
2009-10-29, 11:56
Science also teaches you what is not possible. Physics demonstrates why things don't work. And biological precision, capacity, and conception are dwarfed by the infinite variables that have an effect on anything.
Uhuh... Teach me what you know then, and explain systematically how such things are not physically possible (take my post on how Misaka's railgun works a few pages back as an example) -- since what I know states otherwise.
About the thing that accelerator touch. His still touching it as a whole. The body of the person and its all connected as long as its not outside of the body.
This is actually a question of metaphysics. What defines an object as separate from it's surroundings? Scientifically speaking, it's all just a bunch of subatomic particles floating around in a void. Based on the logic of touching a "person", why isn't he touching the "atmosphere"? The world? The universe? By that logic he can do anything he wants to anything at infinite range.
Conversely, if that doesn't work, then he's not touching anything. Particles rarely touch each other. What we think of as touch is simply electromagnetic repulsion by electrons. If he can't treat objects as arbitrarily connected, then he can't use his power on anything. Even if we assume some arbitrary small range he has for his power, that doesn't explain how he can affect the entirety of large objects like the steel bars he was throwing around. By all logic, he should only be able to make the tiny part of it he was close to move, although maybe the rest can be dragged around. That's not what happened though. If that's what happened they would've bent in rather odd ways.
This, I think, is the best evidence of any that psychic powers work more on what the user thinks they can than any rationally arguable limitations.
Dean_the_Young
2009-10-30, 07:26
Didn't we establish that Touma can probably block it because he thinks he can? I feel like you're applying the "lolanimephysics" to the wrong side of the situation.As has been discussed before, a railgun is a fire and forget weapon: once fired, there's nothing effecting the shot, exactly like Accelerator's I-beam barrage. It is simply a 21st century catapult, and exactly the thing Touma should not be able to stop once fired.
Touma can stop Railgun's 'railgun', however, even though he has never been able to stop other purely momentum-based weapons. The simplest answer is that Railgun's 'railgun' isn't a real railgun; it simulates, but it keeps psychic power in it even in-route. Which a railgun doesn't.
Touma's power* can only nullify the supernatural/things under supernatural effect.
*Which may not even be a physic one, strictly speaking, because it happens without his will or consent, though all other psychic powers are controllable.
Uhuh... Teach me what you know then, and explain systematically how such things are not physically possible (take my post on how Misaka's railgun works a few pages back as an example) -- since what I know states otherwise.Did you forget your physics class?
A whip of iron sands can be manipulated by two ways: the magnetic fields off of herself, or the magnetic fields from running a current through the sands.
A field off of herself is ridiculous to anyone who's seen what the field lines of a magnetic field at distance are. They quickly even out, become round, and are drastically weakened because of the inverse square relationship between a field source and the magnetic force on a point. (As in, it weakens at a rate of 1/r^2, r being distance.) You can not manipulate something as wild, uneven, as a whip from distance: the field would not support it physically or coherently.
Running electricity through the iron sands is comedic. Not only is that the process of turning iron sands into glass (fulgurites), it suffers gross ignorance of how wire fields act upon eachother. Each element of the wire produces it's field. As the whip is extended (by any means), the relationship radically shifts in the space of from how it was when the whip was drawn in, doubled in on itself. Any theoretical attempt to make it snap would require more continuous calculations and alterations than the computer you're reading this could keep up with, let alone any human mind however altered.
Any actual attempt to strengthen the current to make the field strength stronger would see your 'whip' collapse as the iron sands move closer to the source of the field as more and more of your sand turn to glass.
Dean_the_Young
2009-10-30, 07:31
This is actually a question of metaphysics. What defines an object as separate from it's surroundings? Scientifically speaking, it's all just a bunch of subatomic particles floating around in a void. Based on the logic of touching a "person", why isn't he touching the "atmosphere"? The world? The universe? By that logic he can do anything he wants to anything at infinite range.
Conversely, if that doesn't work, then he's not touching anything. Particles rarely touch each other. What we think of as touch is simply electromagnetic repulsion by electrons. If he can't treat objects as arbitrarily connected, then he can't use his power on anything. Even if we assume some arbitrary small range he has for his power, that doesn't explain how he can affect the entirety of large objects like the steel bars he was throwing around. By all logic, he should only be able to make the tiny part of it he was close to move, although maybe the rest can be dragged around. That's not what happened though. If that's what happened they would've bent in rather odd ways.
This, I think, is the best evidence of any that psychic powers work more on what the user thinks they can than any rationally arguable limitations.
This.
Just looking at the case of changing brain electrons. To do so, Accelerator would have to bypass: any hair he was touching, the multiple layers of skin (epidermis, dermis, hypodermis), the skull itself, and the dura itself (the brain sac that covers the the brain and separates it from other things) even before he could get to the brain itself.
In order to manipulate electrons in the brain, he has to go between many, many layers of separate coverings.
Wilfriback
2009-10-30, 18:44
This.
Just looking at the case of changing brain electrons. To do so, Accelerator would have to bypass: any hair he was touching, the multiple layers of skin (epidermis, dermis, hypodermis), the skull itself, and the dura itself (the brain sac that covers the the brain and separates it from other things) even before he could get to the brain itself.
In order to manipulate electrons in the brain, he has to go between many, many layers of separate coverings.
So with those complex calculations he didn't have enough to redirect the bullet coming of Amai Ao gun.
tsunade666
2009-10-31, 03:41
I would be surprised if he can even manage to reflect it given the situation and the calculation his doing. Doing molecular level calculation within the brain is hard enough to even imagine.
And yes if he can touch the whole atmosphere as one then his completely invisible and his power lies infinite but for some reason he can't maybe if he can reach level 6.
I would be surprised if he can even manage to reflect it given the situation and the calculation his doing. Doing molecular level calculation within the brain is hard enough to even imagine.
And yes if he can touch the whole atmosphere as one then his completely invisible and his power lies infinite but for some reason he can't maybe if he can reach level 6.
Sadly we will never know, being that now he lost most of his power... :(
Rydrallen
2009-10-31, 23:40
The whole argument exemplifies the notion that people believe what they want, rather than what the facts are.
Really, there is not anything inconsistent when ALL of the sources- manga and anime, clearly showing Touma repelling the railgun attack.
The reason why the Imagine Breaker can negate Mikoto's railgun but not Accelerator's steel bars is simple: Accelerator applied his Vector Change to lift the steel bars upwards- NOT towards Touma, therefore the momentum driving those steel bars at the moment prior to the bars hitting Touma is a resultant of gravitational force and not of any esper ability. On the other hand the force which propels the coins comes from Mikoto's electro-magnetism. Another noteworthy point is that the steel bars are launched in an AoE fashion, so even if they are blockable it would be impossible to block all of them without getting crushed by any of the stray bars. Hence evading them would be a wiser choice.
Ice Block
2009-11-01, 06:01
First, let me just say that Imagine Breaker was never confirmed to be Psychic in nature. Neither is it Magical or Divine. It's something unknown that I guess the author will elaborate more on as the series nears its conclusion.
Did everyone forget about the AIM Field the characters seldom talk about? The way I see it, psychics are ranked according to the "size" of their AIM "bubble" and their computational speed/capacity/accuracy. For example, there is another teleporter who doesn't need physical contact -- this one almost became the 8th LVL5. we can assume that this person's AIM bubble(s) is/are bigger than Kuroko's in several ways (range, target acquisition/recognition, tracing, rendering, etc.). On Accelerator's case, yes he has an amazing brain. No wonder he'd need over 9000 brains to power his vector-altering calculations when his own brain got damaged.
Anyway, arguing about how psychics invoke their powers and the amount of computation needed to maintain them would never lead to any conclusion. It's like talking about time travel -- no RL time travelers, no definite, all encompassing way to explain time travel mechanics and paradox formation.
A whip of iron sands can be manipulated by two ways: the magnetic fields off of herself, or the magnetic fields from running a current through the sands.
A field off of herself is ridiculous to anyone who's seen what the field lines of a magnetic field at distance are. They quickly even out, become round, and are drastically weakened because of the inverse square relationship between a field source and the magnetic force on a point. (As in, it weakens at a rate of 1/r^2, r being distance.) You can not manipulate something as wild, uneven, as a whip from distance: the field would not support it physically or coherently.
Running electricity through the iron sands is comedic. Not only is that the process of turning iron sands into glass (fulgurites), it suffers gross ignorance of how wire fields act upon eachother. Each element of the wire produces it's field. As the whip is extended (by any means), the relationship radically shifts in the space of from how it was when the whip was drawn in, doubled in on itself. Any theoretical attempt to make it snap would require more continuous calculations and alterations than the computer you're reading this could keep up with, let alone any human mind however altered.
Any actual attempt to strengthen the current to make the field strength stronger would see your 'whip' collapse as the iron sands move closer to the source of the field as more and more of your sand turn to glass.
I see. However, we should note that her ability involves the control of electromagnetic forces, thus involving strength and directional control of currents in intricate ways to form beautifully complex magnetic fields. How she does it is beyond everyone (as I stated above) -- we can only say she's a LVL5 because she's able to do such. Anyway, a few quick questions:
Fulgurites are formed when molten matter (usually from sand particles, silica etc.) on a conductive surface is supercooled (from thousands of oC to melting point and below in less than a second). Given this scenario, supercooling would only occur when the iron sword-whip contacts with IB. However, does glass formation still occur when only pure iron is present in your system?
For the first scenario you presented... Let's say we have an electromagnet running along the core/center of the iron sword-whip. This is basically a current coiled around a more compact blob of iron dust. This however, will not account for the rapidly vibrating iron particles on the outer parts of the weapon... unless the electromagnet's core's particles are constantly being replaced and cycled throughout the system to prevent iron grain/dust particle fusion (maintaining individual particle weight)?
Eisdrache
2009-11-03, 04:27
The whole argument exemplifies the notion that people believe what they want, rather than what the facts are.
Really, there is not anything inconsistent when ALL of the sources- manga and anime, clearly showing Touma repelling the railgun attack.
The reason why the Imagine Breaker can negate Mikoto's railgun but not Accelerator's steel bars is simple: Accelerator applied his Vector Change to lift the steel bars upwards- NOT towards Touma, therefore the momentum driving those steel bars at the moment prior to the bars hitting Touma is a resultant of gravitational force and not of any esper ability. On the other hand the force which propels the coins comes from Mikoto's electro-magnetism. Another noteworthy point is that the steel bars are launched in an AoE fashion, so even if they are blockable it would be impossible to block all of them without getting crushed by any of the stray bars. Hence evading them would be a wiser choice.
This is exactly how I would explain his powers. It doesnt matter if you fire&forget it, you are still somehow controlling it with your power, thus the connection with your ability. As long as this is the case Touma can block anything fired at him. This is also true for that huge plasma ball that Accelerator wanted to fire at him when people assumed he couldnt :rolleyes:
Master Assassin
2009-11-03, 07:11
This is exactly how I would explain his powers. It doesnt matter if you fire&forget it, you are still somehow controlling it with your power, thus the connection with your ability. As long as this is the case Touma can block anything fired at him. This is also true for that huge plasma ball that Accelerator wanted to fire at him when people assumed he couldnt :rolleyes:
And the only reason why Touma didn't block that plasma ball is because Accelerator didn't even get to fire it at him. Well, even with his unthinkable Imagine Breaker ability, I guess Misaka was worried at that time "what if he didn't manage to stop the attack?"
... Guess the audience's not the only ones outside the fourth wall to assume that Touma couldn't block it... :heh:
This is exactly how I would explain his powers. It doesnt matter if you fire&forget it, you are still somehow controlling it with your power, thus the connection with your ability. As long as this is the case Touma can block anything fired at him. This is also true for that huge plasma ball that Accelerator wanted to fire at him when people assumed he couldnt :rolleyes:
Except for actual, gunpowder-propelled, completely power-neutral bullets from Anti-Skill. I feel that this is about the only thing he can't block.
Another thing I'm thinking of is whether Touma can block Kuroko's needles. Sure, he can stop her powers just by touching her, but as long as she avoids it (which is easy as long as she isn't taken by surprise) and doesn't aim for his right arm, can't she theoretically just materialize deadly objects inside his vital organs and kill him?
I'm wondering why because a natural side plot (which the author will never write) is that Kuroko will become so jealous that she will attempt to kill Touma. Even knowing her limits I don't think Touma can reasonably stop her.
Except for actual, gunpowder-propelled, completely power-neutral bullets from Anti-Skill. I feel that this is about the only thing he can't block.
We have evidence he can't block nun's teeth. :)
Marcus H.
2009-11-04, 07:58
He can, but he would risk losing some fingers in the process. :D
velvet nightmare
2009-11-05, 01:33
Another thing I'm thinking of is whether Touma can block Kuroko's needles. Sure, he can stop her powers just by touching her, but as long as she avoids it (which is easy as long as she isn't taken by surprise) and doesn't aim for his right arm, can't she theoretically just materialize deadly objects inside his vital organs and kill him?
on paper it would appear that she would be able to easily kill him by simply avoiding the right arm
though if we look into specifics i don't think there's an accurate description of how her ability works when teleporting objects into other ones
ReddyRedWolf
2009-11-05, 10:27
Except for actual, gunpowder-propelled, completely power-neutral bullets from Anti-Skill. I feel that this is about the only thing he can't block.
Another thing I'm thinking of is whether Touma can block Kuroko's needles. Sure, he can stop her powers just by touching her, but as long as she avoids it (which is easy as long as she isn't taken by surprise) and doesn't aim for his right arm, can't she theoretically just materialize deadly objects inside his vital organs and kill him?
I'm wondering why because a natural side plot (which the author will never write) is that Kuroko will become so jealous that she will attempt to kill Touma. Even knowing her limits I don't think Touma can reasonably stop her.
Please with Touma's bad luck it might convince her to go for a threesome instead.:heh:
In the back of Kuruko's mind she's asking "What does Oneesama see in this guy?".
Which is why she let Touma in her dorm. Almost suffering punishment from the dorm manager.
She hasn't seen Touma yet in preachy hero mode.
Wilfriback
2009-11-05, 11:56
I think that Kuroko can't teleport Touma because she is calculating to teleport his whole body. Thas a logic way to think it.
I think that Kuroko can't teleport Touma because she is calculating to teleport his whole body. Thas a logic way to think it.
She was holding his right arm at that time. That was all. I don't think the "catch his right arm" coincidences aren't a very good idea, because it invites the reader's curiosity of "but what if it wasn't the right arm?" And then the author may simply not address it.
Dean_the_Young
2009-11-06, 10:15
So with those complex calculations he didn't have enough to redirect the bullet coming of Amai Ao gun.You misunderstand the point: it's not that he was making complex calculations*, but that the calculations he claims he was making are inconsistent with his own claims as to his powers.
Accelerator, even more than Touma, is the king of inconsistency in what he says he can do versus what happens,. Some of it is passable in terms of psychic limitations of conception, but mostly this is in the interest of story. For example, he tells Misaka that his 'default' setting is that everything is reflected: if that were true, he would suffocate because his lungs would repel outside oxygen and his stik isn't breathing.
*Which no amount of chemical enhancement can validate, really. Electrical syampses already are triggered by electricity, and you can't get faster than that.
The whole argument exemplifies the notion that people believe what they want, rather than what the facts are.
Really, there is not anything inconsistent when ALL of the sources- manga and anime, clearly showing Touma repelling the railgun attack.
The reason why the Imagine Breaker can negate Mikoto's railgun but not Accelerator's steel bars is simple: Accelerator applied his Vector Change to lift the steel bars upwards- NOT towards Touma, therefore the momentum driving those steel bars at the moment prior to the bars hitting Touma is a resultant of gravitational force and not of any esper ability. On the other hand the force which propels the coins comes from Mikoto's electro-magnetism. Another noteworthy point is that the steel bars are launched in an AoE fashion, so even if they are blockable it would be impossible to block all of them without getting crushed by any of the stray bars. Hence evading them would be a wiser choice.
The Mikoto railgun delimma isn't whether Touma can block it, it's whether it's a real railgun, real in the sense that it works exactly like an actual railgun. Since Touma can stop Mikoto's railgun, but can't stop solid projectiles solely launched by esper means (Accelerator I-beams), which is what a 'real' railgun slug would be, the conclusion to draw that if Touma can stop Mikoto rail gun slug BUT can not stop effective real railgun slug, then Mikoto railgun =/= real railgun for some reason or another.
I would be surprised if he can even manage to reflect it given the situation and the calculation his doing. Doing molecular level calculation within the brain is hard enough to even imagine.It isn't possible. That really is the long and short of it. No matter the pseudo-scientific medical hax of 'boosting' the brains abilities with 'chemicals', the brain is not a latent supercomputer in wait. While the brain is great at intuitive logic and processes (like moving a body), mathematical calculations of such scale are strictly in the realm of computer reliability and speed. It's for the same reason it takes you longer to think the word 'one' than it does for a computer to count a thousand times; your brain isn't simply slower, is's a snail compared to a cheetah. No amount of boosting of a snail will make it a cheetah.
I see. However, we should note that her ability involves the control of electromagnetic forces, thus involving strength and directional control of currents in intricate ways to form beautifully complex magnetic fields. How she does it is beyond everyone (as I stated above) -- we can only say she's a LVL5 because she's able to do such. Anyway, a few quick questions: First stop: electromagnetism isn't a force, it's a field. The field can produce force (what you are refering), but the amount of force is derived from the field. As such, it's the field that matters.
Mikoto has, in the anime, always produced electricity and all such status from herself. She changes her potential to produce/sense/everything she does with electro-magnetism. She does not spontaniously create electricity away from her. As such, there are two ways for her to create a field: eminating from herself, or current through the sand. Neither of these allow control of a 'whip': a field from herself simply pushes/pulls the sand as a whole to or away from her based on strength and distance, and a field from a current through the sand has similar problems in addition to the worries of a constant current (which non-wires are poor for) and the limit of any current for fear of fulgurite.
A 'she can do it because she can do it' only applies in the sense for story purposes, or her pyschic powers aren't what they think they are, so long as there isn't science to back it up. What it really means is that she's more powerful than she thinks she is (or doesn't know enough to realize what she's doing is impossible).
Fulgurites are formed when molten matter (usually from sand particles, silica etc.) on a conductive surface is supercooled (from thousands of oC to melting point and below in less than a second). Given this scenario, supercooling would only occur when the iron sword-whip contacts with IB. However, does glass formation still occur when only pure iron is present in your system?
Unlikely; still possible, but much higher without the sand. If you take out sand and leave only iron, then that won't do so until it reaches the appropriate levels.
The two biggest problems with current through the whip is conductivity and 'clumping'. Conductivity is by far the biggest: while iron is a conductor, iron sands are not; too many air gaps. What this means is a lot of loss as any current goes down; the field at the base of the whip will be much, much larger than what you get as you go farther. This doesn't just lead to the far ends of the 'whip' being unlikely to be able to hold together, but also that the near field is stronger than the far fields. Which quickly becomes the same problem as with a field from Mikoto herself; either the whip contracts into a clump as the near field draws more in, and the rest of the whip collapses for lack of current, or the near field pushes out the sands and you get more gaps and the farther current falls apart.
You just can't run current through iron sands and hope to make a wire route. It doesn't work that way.
http://www.cardero.com/i/photos/IronSandsMagSep1.jpg
This is how iron sands look under magnetic effect. You could not run a current through those sand with any hope of success. You can not hold an effective form.
For the first scenario you presented... Let's say we have an electromagnet running along the core/center of the iron sword-whip. This is basically a current coiled around a more compact blob of iron dust. This however, will not account for the rapidly vibrating iron particles on the outer parts of the weapon... unless the electromagnet's core's particles are constantly being replaced and cycled throughout the system to prevent iron grain/dust particle fusion (maintaining individual particle weight)?
[/QUOTE]Constantly replacing a 'core' of a whip would require micro-kenisis. Which is something she can not do by her definition of powers. So it is moot, unless we accept that she's using powers she should not (by her list of skills) be able to do.
velvet nightmare
2009-11-06, 11:59
i always thought that the chain whip demonstrates her power similar to that of the magneto type
ie moving around magnetic fields to make things move, in our case move the fields around fast enough to make the sand vibrate?
Mikoto has, in the anime, always produced electricity and all such status from herself.
Except when she hasn't. She called down lightning from the clouds on Touma more than once.
She and 10032 have to be able to manipulate Electromagnetic fields into intricate shapes at a distance to pull off a number of their stunts. Electrokinetic Telepathy being the most obvious, but the Ozone Death Technique as well as hacking electronic locks and ATM machines require it.
Dean_the_Young
2009-11-06, 20:15
i always thought that the chain whip demonstrates her power similar to that of the magneto type
ie moving around magnetic fields to make things move, in our case move the fields around fast enough to make the sand vibrate?It would, if fields worked like that. They don't, so it's really just pseudo-science justification for showy action. It's no more based in reality than unobtanium is a real alloy, giant robots can walk around (or roller blade), or any number of conventional fictional justifications for just about everything fiction does.
The anime can say it works like that, but it's really just (bad) fictional science.
LastResolve
2009-11-07, 06:27
i am pretty sure imagine breaker has more than that it was mentioned that you can lose your imagination
(when steil magnu's was talking to Aleister Crowley)
velvet nightmare
2009-11-07, 14:31
It would, if fields worked like that. They don't, so it's really just pseudo-science justification for showy action. It's no more based in reality than unobtanium is a real alloy, giant robots can walk around (or roller blade), or any number of conventional fictional justifications for just about everything fiction does.
The anime can say it works like that, but it's really just (bad) fictional science.
but then again we have to take into account the context of the series. there is 'magic' after all at the same time, it's also the same thing trying to explain instant teleportation which we are no where near close to coming close to scratching the surface of
Dean_the_Young
2009-11-07, 15:29
but then again we have to take into account the context of the series. there is 'magic' after all at the same time, it's also the same thing trying to explain instant teleportation which we are no where near close to coming close to scratching the surface ofWhen you make an appeal to magic as justification, you've already abandoned the argument of whether something is (1) physically possible or not and (2) bound by consistent rules. And psychic powers in To Aru are very much claimed to be bound by consistent rules, hence the huge emphasis on science and not superstition in their field.
To Aru on a number of occasions separates 'magic' from psychic powers. Mikoto never claims, or is suggested, to use magic to make her iron sand whip/weapons. The only claim they make for her is that she can do it through electro-magnetic fields.
However, we already have a sufficient understanding of electromagnetic fields and the rules of their nature that confirms to us that we can't do that, that fields do not work in that manner.
That's science, and science we've already achieved. It's the same science To Aru claims to use as backing for what its powers can do, since the To Aru exception to physics is schrodinger's cat and nothing more.
You can accept what Mikoto does as rule of cool, but that's all you should accept it as. Not as a actual aplication of her claimed abilities.
Dean_the_Young
2009-11-08, 16:43
Except when she hasn't. She called down lightning from the clouds on Touma more than once.She virtually always calls down lightning on herself, and leaves Touma to be hit by the blast zone. Lightning always focus on or from her, which is consistent with the point that she alters herself (in this clase, the potential difference between her and the sky, making lightning possible).
She and 10032 have to be able to manipulate Electromagnetic fields into intricate shapes at a distance to pull off a number of their stunts. Electrokinetic Telepathy being the most obvious, but the Ozone Death Technique as well as hacking electronic locks and ATM machines require it.Electromagnetic fields don't do intricate fields, though. That's not how fields work. It's the entire problem of justifying those talents through manipulating electromagnetic fields. Electromagnetic fields doing distinct shapes is like, oh...
-Carving an exact copy Michaelangelo's David by throwing a stream of water at limestone, justified because of erosion
-Getting 100 yard football passes 100% despite full coverage because of manipulating wind
-Reliably hitting someone in the next town after batting a baseball, regardless of pitch or how they move, because you hit the ball really, really hard and well
MeisterBabylon
2009-11-08, 19:38
In this world, all those latter three examples are possible with ESP... :heh:
hideki101
2009-11-08, 19:49
Electromagnetic fields don't do intricate fields, though. That's not how fields work. It's the entire problem of justifying those talents through manipulating electromagnetic fields. Electromagnetic fields doing distinct shapes is like, oh...
-Carving an exact copy Michaelangelo's David by throwing a stream of water at limestone, justified because of erosion
-Getting 100 yard football passes 100% despite full coverage because of manipulating wind
-Reliably hitting someone in the next town after batting a baseball, regardless of pitch or how they move, because you hit the ball really, really hard and well
What if we're looking at this all backwards? Instead of moving electrons around to create desired electric fields, she uses electric fields to create movement in electrons. That way, she can make electric fields into distinct shapes due to it being her primary power: everything else just follows afterward.
EDIT: wait, nevermind, that's exactly what you were trying to argue.
The biggest problem I think you're having is that in the context of this show, the Schrodinger Cat experiment justifies everything that espers do. Basically to an esper, the cat is neither dead nor alive, but in the state he or she believes it to be. The AIM field makes it thus, and as such, if they believe that they can do something with their powers, then they can. (oversimplified, but you get the idea)
Also, each of those examples could theoretically happen, just that there are too many variables to reliably simulate to get a consistent answer. The physics of each scenario is possible, but not probable.
Dean_the_Young
2009-11-08, 21:10
In this world, all those latter three examples are possible with ESP... :heh:
What if we're looking at this all backwards? Instead of moving electrons around to create desired electric fields, she uses electric fields to create movement in electrons. That way, she can make electric fields into distinct shapes due to it being her primary power: everything else just follows afterward.
EDIT: wait, nevermind, that's exactly what you were trying to argue.
The biggest problem I think you're having is that in the context of this show, the Schrodinger Cat experiment justifies everything that espers do. Basically to an esper, the cat is neither dead nor alive, but in the state he or she believes it to be. The AIM field makes it thus, and as such, if they believe that they can do something with their powers, then they can. (oversimplified, but you get the idea)Oh, I recognize that Schrodinger Cat justifies everything. My point is that all their own justifications don't. :eyespin:
Chain whip works because Misaka thinks it will. It does not work because mumbo-jumbo about making shapes by manipulating magnetic fields. :eyespin::eyespin::eyespin:
I have a personal bet that a level 6 esper is going to be someone who has no effective limit on their powers. They abandon all conceptions of their limitations, and rely only on the Schrodinger Cat rule to make their will manifest. Levels 1 through 5 are about enforcing your will, through its hazy-defined limits, on reality, but Level 6 abandons those limits all together.
Also, each of those examples could theoretically happen, just that there are too many variables to reliably simulate to get a consistent answer. The physics of each scenario is possible, but not probable.
Very good catch: I left those like that to see if others would catch them. However, the probability in each case is effectively zero, because of those variables. Theoretical possibility and practical possibility are two different concepts.
Take the David piece. It's more than the water streaming that has to be accounted for, it's the mist, the spray, and even the vibrations the water puts into the statue, along with such things as water pressure, density, precision, and more. While water-carving a statue is possible, doing it from distance with masses of water without laboratory settings and absolute variable controls is not. If you toss a stream of water, you aren't going to get precision work.
Or the football throw. Tim Tebow, one of the best football quarterbacks alive, has a completion rate of just over 2/3rds and a range of upward 60 yards, IIRC. And footballs aren't known to be carried by wind: to get extra yardage, wind would have to push up with about 15 ounces of force (no small amount of wind), AND push in the correct direction, AND find its way to the receiver despite all attempts at blocking. You're going to need massive gusts, the kind that knock people over, to reliably get the distance, let alone direction.
This, too, does not happen.
Similar with a baseball. Record baseball hit is about 630 meters, not even .4 miles. Towns can be dozens of miles away. To reliably hit a target you can not see or hear on basis of human strength is not possible.
Theoretical possibilities aren't always practical possibilities. Is it theoretically possible that at this time tomorrow every insurgent in Afghanistan is going to throw down his gun for no real reason? Yes. Will it happen? No.
When theoretical possibilities never happen, we call it impossible. Probability is effectively zero. Others include...
-No one of one side getting hit, at all, in war, because everyone missed/bullets blown off course
-Accident-free days
-Perfect accuracy measurements* on first try for long lists of measurements
*Actually, this one is physically impossible due to the wave-nature of light, but anyone who's gone in lab and made measurements by hand/eye knows the experience.
hideki101
2009-11-08, 22:07
Ah, so that's where our definitions differ. My definition of impossible is restricted to things that can not happen. Take, for example, quantum tunneling. We know that it exists physically, there have been experiments done that show that a caged particle has a non-zero probability of appearing outside the corral, and it has happened. Scaled up, if I were to push against a wall, you, by your definition of impossible would say that it's impossible for me to spontaneously fall through the wall, whereas I would say that it is improbable that I would fall through the wall, but it's impossible for the wall to exert more force on me than I do on the wall (by Newton's third law). If some thing is physically possible, then by definition it is not impossible, regardless of how improbable it is.
More on topic, theoretically, Misaka could be using micro-scale eddy currents in each iron sand particle and controlling each particle of sand individually. I don't know, it's all theoretical. But the point is, she MUST use electricity to move the sand, due to the logic that:
1) Misaka's power is electrokinesis
2) it is generally accepted in-universe that there's only one power per person
3) she can move the iron sand
Therefore: she is using electricity to move the iron sand.
LastResolve
2009-11-09, 06:50
I have a personal bet that a level 6 esper is going to be someone who has no effective limit on their powers
that makes touma a level 6...
Dean_the_Young
2009-11-09, 08:56
Ah, so that's where our definitions differ. My definition of impossible is restricted to things that can not happen. Take, for example, quantum tunneling. We know that it exists physically, there have been experiments done that show that a caged particle has a non-zero probability of appearing outside the corral, and it has happened. Scaled up, if I were to push against a wall, you, by your definition of impossible would say that it's impossible for me to spontaneously fall through the wall, whereas I would say that it is improbable that I would fall through the wall, but it's impossible for the wall to exert more force on me than I do on the wall (by Newton's third law). If some thing is physically possible, then by definition it is not impossible, regardless of how improbable it is.But no matter how many times you push against a wall, you as a person will not spontaneously fall through. One of the things about quantum is that while you can find minute (and I mean minute) differences, it always averages to what is expected. That's why you can use standard non-quantum equations for matters like chemistry and and physics.
As one chemist put it to me, "Quantum mechanics are perhaps the most revolutionary conceptual breakthrough for chemistry in living history. What does that mean for you? Not a thing."
Theoretical possibility and practical possibility are two different things. One isn't concerned with how to make something happen, for one thing.
I should also note that I was making an (unclear) distinction between physical impossibilities (which falls under using magnetic fields for a whip) and practical impossibilites (the 0 chance things).
More on topic, theoretically, Misaka could be using micro-scale eddy currents in each iron sand particle and controlling each particle of sand individually. I don't know, it's all theoretical. But the point is, she MUST use electricity to move the sand, due to the logic that:
See, when you try to justify it on that scale, you're actually hurting your case because of the magnitudes of calculations that would have to be done if she did it that way. One cup of sand has approximately 7692307.69 grains. Just one cup, and you already have to track and calculate 7 digits worth currents, field vectors, and currents to manage in real-time against any number of outside effects. Forget drugged up brain, a supercomputer would get stalled trying to do anything with that, let alone a lone person who can't even see the supermajority of the grains she's supposed to track.
And that's one cup. She uses far, far more than one cup of iron sand.
We know it can't be done that way because the means are far beyond her.
2) it is generally accepted in-universe that there's only one power per personThat's what they like to pretend, but Index is replete with required secondary powers, and Misaka is no exception.
Let's take what you said above, for example: Misaka's one power is electrokineses. She can conjure or manipulate high amounts of electricty.
If her power is electrokineses, then any power to effect magnetic fields is an indirect effect, dependant on her ability to channel/direction electricity from herself. Which, as I posted about above, is a very poor/impossible way to make magnetic fields with iron sand. She would not have electro-magnetic-field-kineses.
If her one power is electrokineses, then she would also be rather ineffective on basis of not being able to detect/measure it; electro-sensory is distinct from electro-kineseis, and without being able to sense electricity/magnetic fields she wouldn't be able to control them at any level.
Then there's lightning immunity; being able to manipulate/channel electricity does not imply you become something other than a burnt stick if you call down lightning on yourself. Every time she fires electricity from herself/calls it down on her, she's serving as the fastest route to ground.
Her railgun also bears mentioning: Newton's Third Law (equal but opposite reactions) really does say that firing a coin from her hand should, if not toss her dozens of feet back, should crush her arm every time she fires.
So besides electro-kinesis, Misaka would be required to
-Sense electric fields
-Direct magnetic-field-manipulation
-Sense magnetic fields
-100% Lightning immunity
-Immunity to Newton's Third Law
-Micro-level precision of both detection and manipulation
-Macro-level calculative abilities far, far in excess of today's supercomputers
But I think I'll agree with you instead, that Misaka only has one power. ;)
3) she can move the iron sandDoesn't require electricity, really.
Therefore: she is using electricity to move the iron sand.No, she's moving it through Schrodinger's Cat. Electricity is the mental placebo, since she wouldn't be able to physically, computationally, or precisly, with electricity alone. ;)
that makes touma a level 6...No, Touma's a level 0. His power is highly limited, simply by the fact that it is restrained to his hand and only does one thing.
When I say limitless, I mean limitless. No restrictions, no caveats, nada. You can do Schrodinger's Cat without the box. You can can make, say, a mountain of anything appear in mid-air, and then dispell it the next. You could dispel anything or anyone you wanted, or change them however to fit your perception of reality.
Touma? Touma can't even dismiss his own power, and it's only good against other people's powers. All you need to beat Touma is a gun.
ReddyRedWolf
2009-11-09, 11:28
Touma? Touma can't even dismiss his own power, and it's only good against other people's powers. All you need to beat Touma is a gun.
Somebody already sort of tried that... Lets just say his imagination went wild.
Somebody already sort of tried that... Lets just say his imagination went wild.
That's because that certain someone had a very powerful imagination.
Dean_the_Young
2009-11-09, 19:36
Somebody already sort of tried that... Lets just say his imagination went wild.
A real gun, I mean. Real real. The kind which, if Touma raised his right hand to intercept, would see his arm blown entirely off.
Touma is, sadly, the kind of hero that any punk with a firearm could take out.
Which is part of his charm, admittedly.
A real gun, I mean. Real real. The kind which, if Touma raised his right hand to intercept, would see his arm blown entirely off.
Touma is, sadly, the kind of hero that any punk with a firearm could take out.
Which is part of his charm, admittedly.
I view that as rather sad than charming. He can defeat literally anything that is considered supernatural in the world, but he can't do anything against the mundane, including the byproducts of his own misfortune. Forget firearms, I wonder why he isn't unlucky enough to have a fatal car accident.
Which brings us to another topic: Touma has some really selective misfortune there. Considering that his negation powers are supposed to be the reason for this, what are the boundaries of his bad luck?
Dean_the_Young
2009-11-09, 21:52
I view that as rather sad than charming. He can defeat literally anything that is considered supernatural in the world, but he can't do anything against the mundane, including the byproducts of his own misfortune. Forget firearms, I wonder why he isn't unlucky enough to have a fatal car accident.Being manifestly natural makes him something other than utterly invincible. In a world of freaks, he's the normal guy, which makes him the biggest freak of all.
Even more than Touma, I favor the anti-skills. :heh:
Which brings us to another topic: Touma has some really selective misfortune there. Considering that his negation powers are supposed to be the reason for this, what are the boundaries of his bad luck?
"Blessed with suck," as I've heard it.
On the other hands, early on there were some good points about how misfortunate Touma was. In satisfying his ego to destroy the Walking Church, he directly led to Index being gravely wounded, a state at which his own presence hurt any attempt at her recovery. I thought that was one of the better parts of the show, really; it was his fault, and he had nothing to deny it.
While people go on about how lucky Touma is to have a harem, I think it's rather tragic even past the obligatory anime cluelessness. If, when, Touma reciprocates with any one of them, the rest will be sad, and that would make him miserable. Harems aren't an equal opportunity web of relationships: by and large, it's not a happy state of affairs for the 'lesser' women, who don't get near the time or affection.
More to your question, I don't think it can really be estimated, since we don't know the the true nature of Touma's power: it's likely more than esper, but what, who knows. I think we could say, however, that nothing is too bad to happen to him.
If it weren't the type of anime it is, To Aru (and Touma) would make a good basis for a dark fantasy/sci-fi.
Wilfriback
2009-11-09, 21:56
I view that as rather sad than charming. He can defeat literally anything that is considered supernatural in the world, but he can't do anything against the mundane, including the byproducts of his own misfortune. Forget firearms, I wonder why he isn't unlucky enough to have a fatal car accident.
Which brings us to another topic: Touma has some really selective misfortune there. Considering that his negation powers are supposed to be the reason for this, what are the boundaries of his bad luck?
Because the destiny conspires against him (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TemptingFate). Death = no more bad luck, more painful is to keep him alive facing many times experiences close to death.
hideki101
2009-11-09, 23:05
No, Touma's a level 0. His power is highly limited, simply by the fact that it is restrained to his hand and only does one thing.
When I say limitless, I mean limitless. No restrictions, no caveats, nada. You can do Schrodinger's Cat without the box. You can can make, say, a mountain of anything appear in mid-air, and then dispell it the next. You could dispel anything or anyone you wanted, or change them however to fit your perception of reality.
Touma? Touma can't even dismiss his own power, and it's only good against other people's powers. All you need to beat Touma is a gun.
You could say that if the power level system is based on how well someone can warp reality, that in this world, Touma would have a negative reading: rather than realizing his own perceptions of the world, he forces reality to situate itself over other peoples perceptions. If the scale is such that a level 0 can't manipulate reality, then Touma's power would actually be considered less than that. However, there's no precident for this, so they label him as the lowest on the scale.
Dean_the_Young
2009-11-09, 23:16
You could say that if the power level system is based on how well someone can warp reality, that in this world, Touma would have a negative reading: rather than realizing his own perceptions of the world, he forces reality to situate itself over other peoples perceptions. If the scale is such that a level 0 can't manipulate reality, then Touma's power would actually be considered less than that. However, there's no precident for this, so they label him as the lowest on the scale.
Sounds about right to me as well: since it really can't demonstrate a Schrodinger effect of replacing rewriting, I always figured it's something that never could be detected. Sort of like proving a negative.
Of course, a power that dispels powers is arguably the most valuable, and he should be a more important research subject than Misaka, but-
You could say that if the power level system is based on how well someone can warp reality, that in this world, Touma would have a negative reading: rather than realizing his own perceptions of the world, he forces reality to situate itself over other peoples perceptions. If the scale is such that a level 0 can't manipulate reality, then Touma's power would actually be considered less than that. However, there's no precident for this, so they label him as the lowest on the scale.
Negative infinity is how I see it. He can never raise it, and he bends the conservation of mass and energy in the exact opposite way everyone else does. He turns everything into nothing. The only aberration I see is how he was bracing himself and his fingers against Index's Dragon's Breath attack, as the whole thing really should be effortless, as it was every other time he used it.
That also helps with the battle experience as defined (albeit very loosely) in the world. 20000 MISAKAs or 128 Mikotos must be killed for Accelerator to gain a level, yet I believe Touma would gain nothing no matter how many of whatever he kills (not that he would).
ReddyRedWolf
2009-11-10, 03:29
Of course, a power that dispels powers is arguably the most valuable, and he should be a more important research subject than Misaka, but-
But said research would cause an imbalance to the status quo between the Science side and Magic side.
Touma's ability and his tendency to acquire allies from both sides is considered a threat. A threat that must be dealt with. Of which one assassin was already dispatched.
It is like when Hyouka was targeted as she was assumed as the Imaginary Number by the Magic side. A Scientific version of the Magic side's Angel. Hyouka was created by converging AIM fields of Academy City.
Also Aleister Crowley was careful with Aisa Himegami case, Deep Blood. As the existence of Vampires is unknown and unproven. Whether they fall on the Science side or Magic side jurisdiction is unknown as well.
Yeah, Touma is already considered a threat for "building up a harem",
not that he sees it as fortunate. ;)
http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/2557/godfinger.th.jpg (http://img35.imageshack.us/i/godfinger.jpg/)
It looks cool, isn't it?
Dean_the_Young
2009-11-10, 13:33
I keep thinking how easy it would be for any halfway-trained person to trap, lock, and break his hand. :p
LastResolve
2009-11-10, 13:35
btw what would happen if touma loses his right arm? will imagine breaker still be incontinew ? cuz what happened with Izzard was kind of fucked up so we arent sure if he imagined touma dodging the attacks or if touma is stronger without his right arm rofl
Dean_the_Young
2009-11-10, 14:36
btw what would happen if touma loses his right arm? will imagine breaker still be incontinew ? cuz what happened with Izzard was kind of fucked up so we arent sure if he imagined touma dodging the attacks or if touma is stronger without his right arm roflWith Izzard, it's rather apparent that it was Izzard doing most of the work; Izzard was completely off balance and losing it, which is why his powers worked to Touma's advantage. Without his right hand, Touma himself is powerless. Nothing about whether the hand is connected; it really depends what sort of power it is.
LastResolve
2009-11-11, 06:22
also i dont get why its called "imagine" i mean he doesnt use his imagination on anything he just cancel anything by default by just aim it at his right hand
Dean_the_Young
2009-11-11, 06:34
also i dont get why its called "imagine" i mean he doesnt use his imagination on anything he just cancel anything by default by just aim it at his right handIn the sense that psychic powers in general are imagination, he's breaking everyone else's imaginations/delusions. Usually not even just their powers, but the mindset that's driving them at that point.
I have a feeling that, in japanese, it has a slightly broader context than 'imagine'.
LastResolve
2009-11-11, 10:04
btw if imagination breaker exist's is there going to be something like imagination maker but then again that should be ars magna oh well we cant really put many theories since we know nothing so far about it : / and its still a mystery why did touma losing his memory's helping the plot
Wilfriback
2009-11-11, 14:03
In the sense that psychic powers in general are imagination, he's breaking everyone else's imaginations/delusions. Usually not even just their powers, but the mindset that's driving them at that point.
I have a feeling that, in japanese, it has a slightly broader context than 'imagine'.
Yes, you are right the japanesse name is Genso Goroshi somthing like Illusion/Fantasy Killer and lately in the novels called Imaginary Killer.
btw if imagination breaker exist's is there going to be something like imagination maker but then again that should be ars magna oh well we cant really put many theories since we know nothing so far about it : / and its still a mystery why did touma losing his memory's helping the plot
That leads me to think that the existence of Imagine Breaker is the proof of the existence of thecreator of all, the imagination maker in other words, God.
Dean_the_Young
2009-11-11, 20:33
btw if imagination breaker exist's is there going to be something like imagination maker but then again that should be ars magna oh well we cant really put many theories since we know nothing so far about it : / and its still a mystery why did touma losing his memory's helping the plot
Imagine maker would be every single pychic and magic user merely existing. People who make something out of nothing, whether by arcane or by sheer stubborn mindedness, already exist and are plentiful.
Touma needs the emphasis of being "unfortunate hero".
Even the setting of his imagine breaker is supposed to deny luck. lol
Dean_the_Young
2009-11-12, 06:27
Start making his harem an actual misery. There's a reason two-timing and leading multiple girls at the same time rarely ends happily for anyone involved.
Master Assassin
2009-11-12, 07:53
Start making his harem an actual misery. There's a reason two-timing and leading multiple girls at the same time rarely ends happily for anyone involved.
The problem is, did he ever two-time and lead multiple girls? He's that clueless to know that more than a few dozen girls are all for him.
tsunade666
2009-11-12, 11:24
does he even think of a certain someone for now? Well I'm not sure though but in the anime I think they hint that touma likes index but that's before he lost his memories and after it maybe its not just his memories that are lost also his love interest. Though its maybe just me that thinks like that at all.
Start making his harem an actual misery. There's a reason two-timing and leading multiple girls at the same time rarely ends happily for anyone involved.
:topicoff:
Touma has pretty much shown absolutely no romantic attraction to anyone except maybe Index and that one's a stretch too. Atleast in the anime, anyway. I don't know about the Light Novel. You must be confusing him for Araragi. Which is understandable since they're both so similar...
LastResolve
2009-11-12, 13:53
meh i pretty much thing touma isnt thinking of girls cuz if he did he would have misaka already
Dean_the_Young
2009-11-12, 14:53
The problem is, did he ever two-time and lead multiple girls? He's that clueless to know that more than a few dozen girls are all for him.
:topicoff:
Touma has pretty much shown absolutely no romantic attraction to anyone except maybe Index and that one's a stretch too. Atleast in the anime, anyway. I don't know about the Light Novel. You must be confusing him for Araragi. Which is understandable since they're both so similar...Whether he intended to or not, Touma has become someone special to a significant number of girls, most of whom are, let's be honest here, not emotionally mature. We've already seen that they get jealous when he's around someone else not them, so the fact he's unaware of their feelings is rather irrelevant to how they feel. And it only takes some to make everyone miserable, and even if he doesn't know why other people's misery makes Touma unhappy as well.
Just like Touma doesn't need to show romantic attraction to anyone to get a prospective harem, neither does he need to show romantic attraction with anyone to get the problems of a harem. Especially a harem which is not about sharing (which would be a baseless sugestion), but a number of individuals wanting him exclusively.
Frankly, I think the 'harem' setup is one of the less entertaining aspects of japanese media of this type. Triangles can work, and work well, but there's no reason for every girl and her sister to be infatuated with one guy. More =/= better.
Whether he intended to or not, Touma has become someone special to a significant number of girls, most of whom are, let's be honest here, not emotionally mature. We've already seen that they get jealous when he's around someone else not them, so the fact he's unaware of their feelings is rather irrelevant to how they feel. And it only takes some to make everyone miserable, and even if he doesn't know why other people's misery makes Touma unhappy as well.
Just like Touma doesn't need to show romantic attraction to anyone to get a prospective harem, neither does he need to show romantic attraction with anyone to get the problems of a harem. Especially a harem which is not about sharing (which would be a baseless sugestion), but a number of individuals wanting him exclusively.
Frankly, I think the 'harem' setup is one of the less entertaining aspects of japanese media of this type. Triangles can work, and work well, but there's no reason for every girl and her sister to be infatuated with one guy. More =/= better.
Yes but Touma isn't even aware of his harem. So how is he two-timing and leading multiple girls? Sure perhaps he has some responsibility to sort it out (if he knew what was going on) but really it's the girls' fault for being idiots. Not him. He maybe dense but to say he's a two-timer is a bit much. You have to actually be aware of doing it and be doing it on purpose to be a two-timer and be leading multiple girls.
Wilfriback
2009-11-12, 16:03
Meanwhile Touma does'nt notice that he has a regular numbers of girls interested in him is going to be such thing like a real "harem".
No more off-tpoic please.
Dean_the_Young
2009-11-12, 19:42
Yes but Touma isn't even aware of his harem. So how is he two-timing and leading multiple girls? Sure perhaps he has some responsibility to sort it out (if he knew what was going on) but really it's the girls' fault for being idiots. Not him. He maybe dense but to say he's a two-timer is a bit much. You have to actually be aware of doing it and be doing it on purpose to be a two-timer and be leading multiple girls.
Whether they're idiots or not, he'll still feel the misery it were made to be a real misfortune.
Which would be an appropriate effect of his hand, since it blocks all good luck.
Which is related to what his hand can block, which makes this technically on-topic. :p
Wilfriback
2009-11-12, 20:39
About Touma "power", can anyone tell me about the procces speed of the imagine breaker?? looks like he can't deal much time against spells like Dragon Breath or the power of Carthena=Original.
Dean_the_Young
2009-11-12, 23:22
Imagine breaker looks to be instantaneous on contact. It's just that some things (like the fire-elemental from the start) can regenerate/propegate as fast as they are dispelled, or even faster.
LastResolve
2009-11-13, 09:02
About Touma "power", can anyone tell me about the procces speed of the imagine breaker?? looks like he can't deal much time against spells like Dragon Breath or the power of Carthena=Original.
the speed its the same as the speed of the beam whenever the beam stops the canceling will stop the thing is the Beam's weight was so much that his hand was nearly ripped apart
velvet nightmare
2009-11-14, 13:58
so in the latest railgun episode, touma blocks an explosion caused by gravity
is it just me or is he not supposed to be able to block it since it's like an after effect kind of deal
from the episode subs, it was explained that gravity is used to turn aluminum particles into a bomb, which would be the actual power at work so the explosion itself would be independent of each other kind of like accelerators vectors vs. flying objects
or is this all just another example of, if he wants to block it, he can
hard to say. IMO it's all about Power, Direct Effect or Indirect Effect. If you agree with the 'he can block railgun' then this is equally fine.
Btw, power refers to actual ability, e.g. Misaka's electricity, DE means an object that has been effected by an ability, e.g. railgun, accelerators steel beams. IE is something that has been affected by a DE. e.g. the explostion Accel created with the dust. We KNOW IB can negate Powers, and cannot negate IE. It's all about if he can negate DE.
the explosion comes under DE.
LastResolve
2009-11-14, 16:17
i had this idea maybe Touma's hand is absorbing paranormal abillities and return the subjects into their state before the supernatural phenomenom was active and the reason why touma dodged the steel bars was cuz of their weight
velvet nightmare
2009-11-15, 02:31
hard to say. IMO it's all about Power, Direct Effect or Indirect Effect. If you agree with the 'he can block railgun' then this is equally fine.
Btw, power refers to actual ability, e.g. Misaka's electricity, DE means an object that has been effected by an ability, e.g. railgun, accelerators steel beams. IE is something that has been affected by a DE. e.g. the explostion Accel created with the dust. We KNOW IB can negate Powers, and cannot negate IE. It's all about if he can negate DE.
the explosion comes under DE.
unfortunately since we explicitly know it's gravity that's the underlying power we cant say the explosion itself is a direct effect. the 'graviton particle' manipulation shirai discussed would be a power but the effect it has on aluminum would be the indirect effect which leads to the explosion
to put this in a clearer manner, lets say someone just has the ability to create gravity. the person keeps on adding mass until it becomes self sustaining and a byproduct results in a natural phenomenon of a black hole. im inclined to say that touma should not be able to negate this black hole (putting physics aside saying he'll get sucked in or w/e)
same thing with accelerator, his ability is to accelerate objects for 1 second, anything after that is it's natural movement using newton's laws since you can take it as a second stage, or byproduct of the initial acceleration, ie what's done is done, it's already in the air moving and doesnt need the actual power to sustain it
i had this idea maybe Touma's hand is absorbing paranormal abillities and return the subjects into their state before the supernatural phenomenom was active and the reason why touma dodged the steel bars was cuz of their weight
the idea of reverting back to original state would make sense
but in the case of the steel bars they'd fall vertically straight down (back to state of rest instead of continuing in motion) so he'd be able to just hold out his hand and walk in a straight line with nothing to worry about
bottom line is that accelerator is the one who makes touma's ability inconsistent, if we ignore it or fudge it a bit, everything kind of falls into place
vBulletin® v3.8.6, Copyright ©2000-2013, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.