Claymore Chapter 91 [Archive]

tenken627

2009-04-29, 23:45

It's messing up the thread when I move the posts, but if the person who posted them wants to put them here it's fine. Please thumbnail them though, the images are a little big.

Just Quote it.

Rukori's images (edited to thumbnails):

1
http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/8152/img0001irj.th.jpg (http://img139.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img0001irj.jpg)

2
http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/6438/img0002ecm.th.jpg (http://img149.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img0002ecm.jpg)

5
http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/6374/img0005do.th.jpg (http://img149.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img0005do.jpg)

8
http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/4941/img0008hr.th.jpg (http://img149.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img0008hr.jpg)

11
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/1361/img0011ve.th.jpg (http://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img0011ve.jpg)

16
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/301/img0016m.th.jpg (http://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img0016m.jpg)

She's a beauty ain't she?;) (Maybe except the idiotic smile)

From what I can make out and a quick translation (i.e. I can make mistakes [keep in mind I have no context - and that's important in japanese]):

- the first page sidebar says the clare/cynthia/yuma encounter was a chance meeting (?!?)
- the title of the chapter is: formenting of an awakening

- the Renee Riful conversation was reacting to something (probably the duff fight) "no - I didn't notice anything. / Oh. that so... wonder if I imagined it?"

Next I'm a little confused, because I'm missing context and the sentences are not simple ones for me:
" Impossible. [it's?] still [going?] (context here would help)
It shouldn't be that quick"

"because my conciousness wavered, I'm certain they're awakening from full sleep"
"but even then that's just speculating. On the surface, the form appears to be gradiating - but that shouldn't be possible"

duff: "over there?"
"damn her running around like that"

Page by Page spoiler -

I am hoping someone who can read Chinese can translate this better since Google Translate is the worst.

CLAYMORE——SCENE091「觉醒的胎动」（文字复述版）

由于各种原因，我看不到图源

但天空之姬她很好心给我用文字复述了，我就贴出来和大家一起分享

我就用1、2……来表明图一、图二……

1、达夫回城，哦哦哦，有一个达夫裸体背影，八木，你明显犯规
西面条住处原来是一个废弃的城堡

2、兔子尾行达夫，威风凛凛站着，这是尾行者应有的动作吗？？

3、兔子在城堡外，开始探测城堡内的妖气情况，发现花花微弱的妖气

4、兔子发现花花的妖气，如同远方巨响的声音，虽然微弱，但无疑是极其强大
花花突然稍微动了一下

5、露妮对刚才花花触动表示怀疑

6、西萝莉抱怨露妮接脚慢

7、达夫穿上裤子，和兔子恶斗

8、达夫觉醒和兔子玩

9、西面条抱怨达夫在城堡内觉醒，警告非洲女不要逃跑，自己亲自去坐镇支援

10、露妮等西面条走后，突然站起来，原来她欺骗了萝莉，说脚没有好是骗人的。现在她把希望寄托在消除妖气的药丸上

11、达夫开始用“大棍”插兔子，兔子招架

12、达夫把城堡打塌了，一如既往地碎石砸到自己

13、兔子消失了，西萝莉赶到，用头发SM达夫

14、西萝莉开始脱衣服。达夫那句“莉芙璐，你怎么大白天就……”，呵呵，意思是说她晚上经常这样 ……哈哈

15、西萝莉觉醒态出击

16、腹黑萝莉开始想和兔子算帐呢

17、兔子有点后悔了，因为她调戏有妇之夫，结果西萝莉大发雷霆
西萝莉突然发现露妮妖气消失了

18、西萝莉命令达夫把露妮SM了

19、可怜的露妮正巧和达夫对面

20、可怜的达夫，原来他跑不过露妮

21、西萝莉决定亲自追赶

22、兔子良心受谴责了，虽然她很好奇城堡下花花，但她对自己对露妮见死不救有很过意不去

23、兔子跑到城堡下见到花花，她的妖气竟然和花花产生共鸣。难道大家都是两位一体的原因？？？

（完了）

作者：细雨中旋律之歌

2009-4-30 11:27 　回复此发言

CLAYMORE - SCENE091 "awakening movement" (to repeat the text version)

A variety of reasons, I do not see the source map

But the sky to her heart, she very well repeat the words I used, I will come out and paste together to share

I used 1,2 ... ... to show a map, Figure 2 ... ...

1, dove back to the city,哦哦哦, there is a duff naked back, Yagi, you obviously foul
West noodle house was an abandoned castle

2, rabbit BIKO Duff, majestic standing, this is the end of the action unless you have? ?

3, rabbit in the castle, the castle began to probe the situation within the妖气found weak妖气Karelinia

4, rabbit妖气Huahua found, as in loud voices from afar, though weak, but is extremely powerful
Karelinia suddenly look a little move

5, Lu-Ni Huahua just touch doubted

6, Ni Lu西萝莉complain about slow-pin

7, Tatsuo wear trousers, and a rabbit fight

8, Tatsuo awakening and rabbit playing

9, West complained that Duff noodles awakening within the castle, warning the African women do not escape their own personal support person to

10, Lu-Ni and other West noodles left, suddenly stood up, she cheated Lolita, said the foot was no good lie. She now hopes to eliminate the pill on妖气

11, Duff started the "big stick" jumped the rabbit, the rabbit to ward off

12, Duff played the collapse of the castle, and, as always, hit their gravel

13, the rabbit disappeared,西萝莉arrived with a hair SM Duff

14,西萝莉began to undress. Duff just the phrase "莉芙璐, how can you on the big day ... ..." Oh, she means that frequently at night ... ... ha ha

15,西萝莉offensive awakening of state

16, abdominal and Loli accounts and rabbits began to think it

17, the rabbit a little regret, because she married assailing the results西萝莉furious
Ni Lu西萝莉suddenly discovered disappeared妖气

18, Duff西萝莉order to reveal the SM-Ni

19, Ni Lu poor opposite happened and Tatsuo

20, poor dove, that he is running, however Ni Lu

21, decided to catch up with西萝莉

22, condemned by the conscience of the rabbit, although she was very curious about the castle under the Huahua, but she has nothing on the Lu-Ni very sorry

23, the rabbit went to see the flower under the castle, her surprise and Huahua妖气resonate. Are we are all one of the reasons for the two? ? ?

(End)

Author: rain in the melody of the song

2009-4-30 11:27 back this statement

Chinese nicknames in this spoiler -

rabbit = Clare

loli/lolita/west loli = Riful

Lu Ni = Renee

Huahua = Raciela

shippU

2009-04-29, 23:56

Mangaloid

2009-04-30, 00:04

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/4172/tease1c.jpg
http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/4459/tease2.jpg
fixed

shippU

2009-04-30, 00:14

wow! Riful..always impressive. hm, another stalemate btn Duff & Clare, is it? looks like they'll have to go shopping for a new lair. this is killing me.

Tom Bombadil

2009-04-30, 00:25

Female version of Duff? Waist too thin to be Manly.

tenken627

2009-04-30, 00:36

Thanks, rukori, tenken. These are tantalizing pics. Looks like: 1) the fight between Duff and Clare continues after she trails him to the lair, but is it at the beginning or end of her infiltration? 2) Raciela isn't going to awaken yet? 3) but Riful does...in response to Clare's intrusion?? in preparation for Raciela's awakening? 5) Renee glues her legs back and escapes the lair(?)

Clare seems *awfully*strong, deflecting that rod w/o yoki couldn't have been easy.

these spoilers are reliable? i can't wait x)

Yeah, it seems like the spoilers are correct.

And unfortunately, the spoiler is also correct that there is only 25 pages this issue instead of the normal 31-32 :(. WTFFF!

And Raciela is "about" to Awaken at the end when Clare sees them (end of chapter).

Renee does get her arms and legs back on to normal, and "tries" to escape.

And the upcoming Volume 16's cover is of Helen + Deneve.

Ryus

2009-04-30, 00:40

Female version of Duff? Waist too thin to be Manly.

Your right... His hips looks way too female in the image of Riful strangling him. Maybe he's not full transformed and Riful is pulling him back and he's on a diet...

Page 11 image of Duff does have a slightly shinny waste too but not that bad. If there both genuine then I'm assuming that the other pic is just Riful pulling his head back that makes him look female, but it's still too much so and should have been caught and fixed before it was published.

Question: I'm new to this whole is the spoiler genuine thing. So are spoiler pics more reliable than just spoilers? Since there where a few spoilers last chapter but I recall any spoiler pics... just the complete raw. Speaking of, any guesses until the raw is out? and then the first translations?

Ryus

2009-04-30, 00:44

And the upcoming Volume 16's cover is of Helen + Deneve. Do you have a link?

And one for Volume 15 also?

necrosis6

2009-04-30, 00:47

Do we have any information on why Raciela is starting to awaken at the end? Is Riful holding back Duff so that he doesn't blow up the den or so that he doesn't hurt clare since the more yoki manipulators she has the better?

shippU

2009-04-30, 00:48

And unfortunately, the spoiler is also correct that there is only 25 pages this issue instead of the normal 31-32
:upset:
And the upcoming Volume 16's cover is of Helen + Deneve.

Yay Deneve, one of my faves

rukori

2009-04-30, 01:18

Do you have a link?

And one for Volume 15 also?

You can find it on the Claymore forum of mangahelpers

EDIT:
Chapter is out on TSS:D. Can't post it outside before tomorrow though, so if anyone want the MF link pm me..

oh and it's only 24 pages

tenken627

2009-04-30, 01:33

Question: I'm new to this whole is the spoiler genuine thing. So are spoiler pics more reliable than just spoilers? Since there where a few spoilers last chapter but I recall any spoiler pics... just the complete raw. Speaking of, any guesses until the raw is out? and then the first translations?

Well, usually spoilers are out a few days before the end of the previous month. Like 4-5 days. Some months there may be multiple spoilers, with one genuine one out of a multitude of fake ones.

If you see a picture (and it's not a photoshopped picture), it's most likely the real thing. But usually text spoilers are out first early.

It seems like Jump Square might actually be released on May 2nd. Raws may be a little before that or around then. And maybe a day after that you will see the first English scanlations.

Tom Bombadil

2009-04-30, 01:36

Try to translate Chinglish style. Enjoy.

1、达夫回城，哦哦哦，有一个达夫裸体背影，八木，你明显犯规
西面条住处原来是一个废弃的城堡

Duff returns home. Ohhh, A brief shot of naked Duff's back. That's against the rules, Yagi. It turns out that Riful is living in a dilapidated castle.

2、兔子尾行达夫，威风凛凛站着，这是尾行者应有的动作吗？？

Clare follows Duff. She strikes a majestic standing pose. Is this what a stalker suppose to do?

3、兔子在城堡外，开始探测城堡内的妖气情况，发现花花微弱的妖气

Outside the castle, Clare scans the Yoki inside the castle and discovers the faint Yoki of Raciela.

4、兔子发现花花的妖气，如同远方巨响的声音，虽然微弱，但无疑是极其强大
花花突然稍微动了一下

Clare compares Raciela's Yoki as a huge blast from afar, though sounds faint but no doubt extremely powerful. Raciela suddenly show a bit movement.

5、露妮对刚才花花触动表示怀疑

Renee expresses her doubt about the movement.

6、西萝莉抱怨露妮接脚慢

Riful complains how slow Renee attaches her legs.

7、达夫穿上裤子，和兔子恶斗

Duff put on some pants, and fights/smashes with Clare.

8、达夫觉醒和兔子玩

Duff plays with Clare in his awakened form.

9、西面条抱怨达夫在城堡内觉醒，警告非洲女不要逃跑，自己亲自去坐镇支援

The-noodle-of-the-west complains about Duff awakening inside the castle. She warning the cornrows-girl about escaping, and goes to the event scene to give her support.

10、露妮等西面条走后，突然站起来，原来她欺骗了萝莉，说脚没有好是骗人的。现在她把希望寄托在消除妖气的药丸上

Renee suddenly stands up after noodle-of-west leaves. She was only lying about her legs. Now she bets her hope on the Yoki-erasing pills.

11、达夫开始用“大棍”插兔子，兔子招架

Duff starts serving Clare with giant rods. Clare wards off his attack.

12、达夫把城堡打塌了，一如既往地碎石砸到自己

Duff collapses part of the castle, and takes the hits from falling rocks as before( He never learns).

13、兔子消失了，西萝莉赶到，用头发SM达夫

Clare disappeared. Loli-of-the-west arrives and has an SM-session with Duff using her hair.

14、西萝莉开始脱衣服。达夫那句“莉芙璐，你怎么大白天就……”，呵呵，意思是说她晚上经常这样 ……哈哈

Loli-of-the-west starts taking her clothes off. Duff:"Riful, Why are you striping during the day?" Hehe, it means she does that often during the night. Haha.

15、西萝莉觉醒态出击

Loli-of-the-west fights in her awakened form.

16、腹黑萝莉开始想和兔子算帐呢

The Wicked-Loli-of-the-West tries to take her revenge on Clare.

17、兔子有点后悔了，因为她调戏有妇之夫，结果西萝莉大发雷霆
西萝莉突然发现露妮妖气消失了

Clares starts to regret her action a bit. She teased a married man and made loli-of-the-west furious. Loli-of-the-West suddenly senses that the Yoki of Renee has disappeared.

18、西萝莉命令达夫把露妮SM了

Loli-of-the-west orders Duff to do a SM-session with Renee.

19、可怜的露妮正巧和达夫对面

Poor Renee runs right into Duff.

20、可怜的达夫，原来他跑不过露妮

But poor Duff, it turns out that he is too slow to catch Renee.

21、西萝莉决定亲自追赶

Loli-of-the-west decides she'll give chase herself.

22、兔子良心受谴责了，虽然她很好奇城堡下花花，但她对自己对露妮见死不救有很过意不去

Clare's conscience weights on her. She's very curious about Raciela inside the castle, but she feels sorry for not helping a Renee-in-danger.

23、兔子跑到城堡下见到花花，她的妖气竟然和花花产生共鸣。难道大家都是两位一体的原因？？？

Clare meets Raciela inside the castle. Her Yoki resonates with Raciela's. Is this because both of them are 2-in-1's?
（完了）

Cyclone

2009-04-30, 01:36

Riful looks serious pissed.
I wonder if Renee/Rune got away alright. Doesn't look good for her - even on the supressant.
Of course, if I could read chinese, I'd probably know from what Clare says...

tenken627

2009-04-30, 01:42

Thanks for the translation Tom Bombadil! Makes much more sense now.

So that's what was in Renee's hand... it was a yoki suppression pill.

And the last bit... Clare being "attuned" to Raciela because both of them are two beings in one body. (Luciela + Rafaela, Clare + Teresa) Is that why Clare felt that she was fated to see Raphaela in the first place?

khryoleoz

2009-04-30, 01:44

SM sessions! I love it!

Well, not for me to be involved in one. I mean the humor of course.

...Seriously!

shippU

2009-04-30, 04:00

Rozalie

2009-04-30, 04:00

Thanks a lot for the translation!
Wow! This chapter is really cool! I just can wait to download it!
I wonder what happens when Alicia and Beth will appear.

mosmos

2009-04-30, 07:32

Yeah .. Nice chapter .. thank thankssss

Why did Clare say "WTF am I doing here?" in the end ??

FragrantFlora

2009-04-30, 07:33

A lot of nice scenes I see. What website is TTS?

Negativedark

2009-04-30, 07:51

Wow. We finally see an AB take off their clothes before transforming.

Anyways this is going to be interesting. Wonder if Riful will run into Alicia and Beth while they are out there chasing Renee.

itisjustme

2009-04-30, 08:13

So Clare didn't go for Renee, or at least not mainly. Why then? Pure plot device to awaken Raciella? Reasonable reason? Yet to be revealed revelation? Why did Yagi run shy of the Clare-Riful confrontation? Why isn't Clare powering up to super saiyan level and rip everyone into pieces? When are the emo-goth top 2 Claymores going to arrive? Is Raciella going to be friend or foe? Or shall she initiate a level 4 fusion with Claresa? Who shall be the first to score a (zombie) stripper? Will Renee end up as mere cannon fodder or will she upgrade to being a fight commentator?

ARGH :eyespin:

mosmos

2009-04-30, 08:32

So Clare didn't go for Renee, or at least not mainly. Why then?
Bec. Clare do not give a shit about renee

Pure plot device to awaken Raciella? Reasonable reason? Yet to be revealed revelation? Why did Yagi run shy of the Clare-Riful confrontation?
Bec. Clare is not interested

Why isn't Clare powering up to super saiyan level and rip everyone into pieces?
Bec. it's not dragon balls

When are the emo-goth top 2 Claymores going to arrive?
In 03 June

Is Raciella going to be friend or foe?
None of your business

Or shall she initiate a level 4 fusion with Claresa?
Hopefully

Who shall be the first to score a (zombie) stripper?
Duff has already poke her with his poka stick. You are too late.

Will Renee end up as mere cannon fodder or will she upgrade to being a fight commentator?
None of your business

ARGH :eyespin:

Something Something

PGilis

2009-04-30, 10:04

So... Clare is about to do one more REALLY BIG mistake...

Let's see:

1) Turn Teresa into a big softie;
2) Not tell Teresa to Rip Priscilla's head off right away;
3) To say "Put Teresa's flesh and blood inside me" to no other than Rubel!
4) To let her captain Flora unguarded;
5) Let Renee go away - the only person to know something about former-boytoy-now-growup-hottie-badass-knight Raki whereabouts.

And now, probably 6) She will wake up Raphaciella, just like Riful wanted, knowing or not. :heh:

tenken627

2009-04-30, 10:21

@tenken, that's probably the case, though it seems a little tenuous to go on. Teresa only met Rafaela for a few minutes as a kid, and there doesn't seem to have been any further interaction between the 2. Raf did seem very surprised by news of Teresa's death but it may just have been surprising news, nothing more. It did indicate that she was far more aware of Teresa's prowess [regarded her as more than your average #1] than the Org guys.

Still, Clare herself has no special reason to want to see Raf. It's like she's responding more to the unusual merging, rather than acting on personal motivation. And doesn't look like she will be receiving Raki's message any time soon. Boy, that Renee can run.

Hmm, no surprises for this chapter. more build up though. Wish Raciela would wake up & smell the coffee already *sigh*

I also don't think that Clare isn't drawn to Raciela for any "personal" motivation. But, I didn't mean that either Clare or the "Teresa" inside of her were actively and consciously looking for Rafaela because of familiarity. Clare also never knew exactly about Raciela.

The two are drawn to each other though, for whatever reason. Clare is drawn to Raciela, especially after sensing it outside of the castle (and even leaves Renee behind with Riful). Raciela moves (like the first prenatal kick of a baby inside a mom's stomach) for the first time after Clare senses it.

"Their yokis resonates with each other." The one to Awaken Raciela is not Renee, but Clare.

And the only real link between them is that they are the only ones in the world that are fused from two different yoki-related beings.

Sleepy Speculator

2009-04-30, 10:25

haha i wasn't expecting this thread so soon, but damn what's this i see on one of the images, Clare catches one of Duff's rods without yoki release/? Gotta go find the raws...

clarakiss~

2009-04-30, 11:24

hmm... i was looking forward to this chapter but i'm slightly disappointed. i was really hoping for another interesting conversation between clare and riful. i have a feeling that this is the end for riful in the next few chapters.

while she chases after renee, riful will probably be intercepted by the twins and the abyssal feeders, freeing renee from riful's wrath. renee then, returns to the castle after sensing something disturbing and stops clare as she almost awakens raciella.

and after that, renee will tell clare about raki and the little girl. ^^;

it looks like riful has no idea that isley is gone. i wonder why? she's quite familiar with his yoki signature, right? she could've sensed something when isley's yoki suddenly died out.

MisterJB

2009-04-30, 11:49

the full raw is out, people.

Sleepy Speculator

2009-04-30, 12:09

There's no reason why Riful, would know that Isley is dead, the distance is just that large. And although Galatea could miraculously sense the vast death knell, she was at least in an adjoining land and to compare her with another sensing claymore Tabitha, she was the only one who suspected it. (Galatea is in the central land Toulouse? and Riful, Clare, Renee and Cynthia are all in the Western land Lautrec, whereas Isely was in the southern land Mucha)

@PGillis
So... Clare is about to do one more REALLY BIG mistake...

Let's see:

1) Turn Teresa into a big softie;
2) Not tell Teresa to Rip Priscilla's head off right away;
3) To say "Put Teresa's flesh and blood inside me" to no other than Rubel!
4) To let her captain Flora unguarded;
5) Let Renee go away - the only person to know something about former-boytoy-now-growup-hottie-badass-knight Raki whereabouts.

And now, probably 6) She will wake up Raphaciella, just like Riful wanted, knowing or not.

I hope you're being sarcastic, because hmm i don't know how to respond to that. And i hope this isn't blatant trolling :(

1) Clare didn't consciously make Teresa a softy, in fact that was entirely Teresa's choice to embrace her maternal nature etc. It still didn't make her entirely unfit for battle either, she fell to a cheap shot, in what looks to be a weak point in her fighting style IMO.

2) Small children rarely have the consciousness or bloodthirsty nature to try ordering adults to murder other adults...

3) Clare had never met Rubul, she only knew from what Teresa said that the representative would be a man in black. Of course we can only suspect why it was Rubul of all people that was there, a child doesn't tend to know the machinations of a secret organisation secretly trying to engineer a bio weapon in order to fulfill an ancient conspiracy or two. And carrying Teresa with her may or may not be the first intentional plan Clare ever came up with.

4) I admit she left Flora unguarded, but gotta also admit, that Flora died hella quick for a single digit, even Undine and Jean got in better blows. Flora was supposed to be a speed type by her sword technique yet she didn't get a single blow in, that implies she was frozen up in fear, and she wasn't the only one. *cough* Miria *cough*

5) Clare only feels guilty that she abandons one warrior in favour of another, she's never met Renee, and she doesn't know (what we know) that she met Raki. Ever heard about Triage? Renee could at least run and by all accounts was... Raphealla on the other hand, doesn't stop you from feeling guilt either way.

6) If Raphealla is already awakening before Clare got there it means that someone else (Renee) already did the job.

tenken627

2009-04-30, 13:02

SM sessions! I love it!

Well, not for me to be involved in one. I mean the humor of course.

...Seriously!

Of course not ;)

But it was so wrong of Yagi to show Duff's ass to the world :twitch:. Not all of us are little AB lolis.

MisterJB

2009-04-30, 13:11

Of course not ;)

But it was so wrong of Yagi to show Duff's ass to the world :twitch:. Not all of us are little AB lolis.

He better make Raciella really sexy after this loli and Dauf abuse.

I don't know, but we have seen only 7 six females ABs and males we saw a full army of them and we got mooned by Isley and Dauf. Yagi, more female ABs please

tenken627

2009-04-30, 13:14

He better make Raciella really sexy after this loli and Dauf abuse.

I don't know, but we have seen only 7 six females ABs and males we saw a full army of them and we got mooned by Isley and Dauf. Yagi, more female ABs please

Isley mooned us? I don't remember.

We got mooned by Riful this chapter (must be a couple thing), and we're almost perpetually mooned by Luciela since it always shows her side of Raciela bounded up together.

Agatha didn't really moon us, but she didn't need to.

Kerubin

2009-04-30, 13:45

http://kerubinist.blogspot.com/2009/05/claymore-91.html

My humble opinions here.

MisterJB

2009-04-30, 14:41

Isley mooned us? I don't remember.

We got mooned by Riful this chapter (must be a couple thing), and we're almost perpetually mooned by Luciela since it always shows her side of Raciela bounded up together.

Agatha didn't really moon us, but she didn't need to.

Yes, in chapter 88.

I don't mind being mooned by Luciela but Riful is a little kid.

PGilis

2009-04-30, 15:36

I hope you're being sarcastic, because hmm i don't know how to respond to that. And i hope this isn't blatant trolling :(

1) Clare didn't consciously make Teresa a softy, in fact that was entirely Teresa's choice to embrace her maternal nature etc. It still didn't make her entirely unfit for battle either, she fell to a cheap shot, in what looks to be a weak point in her fighting style IMO.

2) Small children rarely have the consciousness or bloodthirsty nature to try ordering adults to murder other adults...

3) Clare had never met Rubul, she only knew from what Teresa said that the representative would be a man in black. Of course we can only suspect why it was Rubul of all people that was there, a child doesn't tend to know the machinations of a secret organisation secretly trying to engineer a bio weapon in order to fulfill an ancient conspiracy or two. And carrying Teresa with her may or may not be the first intentional plan Clare ever came up with.

4) I admit she left Flora unguarded, but gotta also admit, that Flora died hella quick for a single digit, even Undine and Jean got in better blows. Flora was supposed to be a speed type by her sword technique yet she didn't get a single blow in, that implies she was frozen up in fear, and she wasn't the only one. *cough* Miria *cough*

5) Clare only feels guilty that she abandons one warrior in favour of another, she's never met Renee, and she doesn't know (what we know) that she met Raki. Ever heard about Triage? Renee could at least run and by all accounts was... Raphealla on the other hand, doesn't stop you from feeling guilt either way.

6) If Raphealla is already awakening before Clare got there it means that someone else (Renee) already did the job.

Don't worry. I was. :eyespin:

Still, i think Clare will be very sorry for not meet Renee before... considerating they both know someone in common.

Still, i think that's the better scenario to Renee... thanks to Clare's intervention, she can ran away from Riful and Duff, and outside Riful's lair, she can meet Cynthia and she can help her to fully regenerate her wounds. Later they can chat and Clare will discover about Raki and his strange little companion.

As for Clare, i dunno why she is so interested in meeting Raphaela, but the problem is, she still don't know Raph is fused with the former Abissal of South Luciela. She could make a mistake and wake them. THAT's is something she will feel very sorry about. :heh:

Riful said if Raphaciella become too powerful, she would kill her before fully awaken, but now Riful is not even close of her! What if after fully awaked, Raphaciela become so powerful, Clare must join forces with no other than Priscilla to destroy her? :p

Other problem is if the Org somehow discover Raki is the only one who can control the most powerfull awaked being (Level 1) of all, Priscilla.

Korinov

2009-04-30, 16:06

When I looked at the image where Riful is taking her clothes off, I seriously wondered if I'd jumped on a loli doujin site by mistake :heh:

The chapter looks nice, but... only 24 pages? Yagi already came to Europe to sightsee castles at the middle of the month? :(

Ryuken

2009-04-30, 16:28

Golden Week's fault for sure.

It has to be.:)

Ryuken

2009-04-30, 16:40

Clare looks pissed in the end after seeing the molded twins, I wonder why?:confused::)

PGilis

2009-04-30, 17:12

She is just jealous.

They did what she wanted to do with Theresa, but never worked... :p :naughty:

clarakiss~

2009-04-30, 17:23

Clare looks pissed in the end after seeing the molded twins, I wonder why?:confused::)

nah, cuz she wants to be in that same position with raki, that's why. :p neways clare doesn't look pissed but shocked and might be wondering why this thing is reacting to her presence.

MalakTawus

2009-04-30, 17:34

Ahhhhh!!!
This looks great!
.....but i haven't see the full chap. yet....sigh.....

Ancient Soul

2009-04-30, 17:35

Ah, as expected Clare rushed in Riful's castle AGAIN!:mad:

The fact that she managed to reach Rafaciella was luck.I mean who knowed that Renee had a well hidden yoki pill?Lucky that Renee is rather smart and took is time to plan in advance for emergency situation.Of course this dosen't mean that she will escape Riful&Dauf with ease.Clare intervention was two ways : created an oportunity for Renee to escape but at the same time put her in close mortal danger.

Clare and Rafaela meet only once briefly and wasn't any indication about anything between the two of them.Rafaela not even recognized her yoki.Luciella was already an AB.I can't belive that Rubel knowed the exact situation of Rafaciella and that she will become active when Clare will be close by.:eyebrow:

Overall a rather confusing chapter...seem that Clare and Rafaciella have establish a Mind-Link!?!...like those AE!?!Clare seem to have a headache or something!I wonder if Rafaciella will share-experience with Clare and in the process more of Teresa's abilities awaken in Clare.:cool:

Ryuken

2009-04-30, 19:33

Well, something big is going to happen next. I can feel it in my bones. The thing is that I want know it now and don't want to wait another pain sticking month.:frustrated::)

Ryus

2009-04-30, 19:52

Overall a rather confusing chapter...seem that Clare and Rafaciella have establish a Mind-Link!?!...like those AE!?!Clare seem to have a headache or something!I wonder if Rafaciella will share-experience with Clare and in the process more of Teresa's abilities awaken in Clare.:cool:

I can't say much until there is an English translation (since I have no real clue what happened in the raw, some guess...) but that is a very interesting idea that maybe Rafaciella (I like that name :heh:) is stirring "the Teresa" inside of Clare.

If true we would have two super-merged Claymores in just a few chapters, or at least one super-merged claymore and one that's further on there way to being one. I wonder if the theory does happen would it just active Clare's Teresa powers or if there will be a further merger (maybe with Clare gaining memories, behaviors, or maybe even some new looks). I guess we'll find out in the next few chapters...

I can't wait for an English translation but now I really want it to be June... since, I since, the S***s about to hit the fan .

Newhope

2009-04-30, 19:53

It's a fairly interesting chapter, if i'am not mistaken Rafaciella has started to react to Claire and Riful realized what was happening which prompted her to act and stop Dauf from doing anything foolish so she could capture the intruder alive herself.

rukori

2009-04-30, 19:54

Well, something big is going to happen next. I can feel it in my bones. The thing is that I want know it now and don't want to wait another pain sticking month.:frustrated::)

Who doesn't? we're about to watch the biggest brawl in the history of lil' Claymore island; Rifulx(Alicia+Beth)xClarex(Raphaela+Luciella)xAE !!!!!! I've been complaining that the last chapters were too dull, but now seems like it's gonna be different...

It's a little like what's about to take place in OP:D

MisterJB

2009-04-30, 19:58

khryoleoz

2009-04-30, 20:58

@Kerubin,

I read your blog.

Riful is saying that Clare is better than an awakened former number 3? Wow! That's our Clare for ya!

evil_kenshin

2009-04-30, 21:42

I have no idea about what's happening in OP but it's kinda true that the last chapter were a little but dull.

I mean, Isley vs Helen was awesome and what we saw of his struggle against the AFs was also really cool. But when we think that Isley is an AO and that Rigardo and Agatha gave us better fights...

The difference being that the agatha and rigardo fight were against the main character (Clare). We barely saw anything of his fight against the Abyssal feeders (in fact we got more of Helen, Deneve and Dietrich talking than we did of him)

I felt a better end to Isley (or no end at all lol) would of been more appropriate.

Newhope

2009-04-30, 22:02

The way I read it Riful stoped Dauf because she wanted Claire alive not because she thought Claire was stronger but I may be wrong as I'am not to good at reading chinese.

evil_kenshin

2009-04-30, 22:21

The way I read it Riful stoped Dauf because she wanted Claire alive not because she thought Claire was stronger but I may be wrong as I'am not to good at reading chinese.

not sure either way (can't read chinese myself) but considering at the time Riful had Renee , would Riful even have a use for Clare?

Newhope

2009-04-30, 22:31

not sure either way (can't read chinese myself) but considering at the time Riful had Renee , would Riful even have a use for Clare?

Riful wants Claire because Rafaciella reacted to Claire's youki sensing on pages 4-5, at frist I think Riful thought Renee was the one causeing the reaction but I think she figured out that the reaction came from the intruder when Dauf and Claire started fighting.

GundamZZ

2009-04-30, 23:00

Riful wants Claire because Rafaciella reacted to Claire's youki sensing on pages 4-5, at frist I think Riful thought Renee was the one causeing the reaction but I think she figured out that the reaction came from the intruder when Dauf and Claire started fighting.

where do you get those ideas anyway?
Duf found Clare and started making mess (Clare's inner OS: Just as I planned.) Riful got annoyed and got out to stopped being silly. Duf said he found dark clothed girl with no youki. Riful took off her cloth. Duf: it's still day time! Riful: I don't have spare cloth. Take this. (Transformed). Rene takes the pill and slipped off. Riful finds out and tells Duf to shred Rene to pieces. Clare is thinking saving Rene but running into the opposite direction.

rukori

2009-04-30, 23:01

I think you are thinking too much into it. Most likely it's about Riful's grudge after being humiliated by Clare.. She said so herself: "You'll pay dearly for this"

revan5

2009-04-30, 23:43

I think you are thinking too much into it. Most likely it's about Riful's grudge after being humiliated by Clare.. She said so herself: "You'll pay dearly for this"

I found a nifty bit of summary from someone calling themselves "Kerubin". Oops-Apologies on not noticing the thing about your blog earlier Kerubin, if you read this. I thought the community would appreciate your witty summary. Be sure to check out his link on page 2 to see the whole review of the chapter summary (with pics) on his blog. Note to moderators, it's just a review of the chapter; it is not the raw that he has on the blog.

Here goes:

"Oooo seems like the chinese scans are out early for Claymore 91!!! So what happened to Clare after she left Yuma with Cynthia? Apparently in this chapter she has tailed Dauf all the way to Riful's Lair, which means....the appearance of the long awaited merged sisters Raphaela and Luciela. Clare senses their formidable yoki although on the surface it seems like just a small tinge of energy. Clare's yoki probing sparked a tiny reaction from the comatose sisters, much like a baby kicking in his mother's womb. Both Riful and Renee who are in the lair, caught the subtle movement, but Renee expresses her doubts in hope that Riful will not pay attention. Renee has already attached her limbs to their normal condition, will she escaped as she planned a few chapters ago?"

Part 2

"Outside the lair, Dauf awakens and engages Clare in a rather uninteresting fight. Honestly I'm getting so sick of Dauf, he has no hint of intelligence and all he can do is display his brute force. It's time for another character to die, perhaps he can die trying to save Riful from Alicia and Beth? Besides if Riful were to die, and that's a very high chance because of the zombies and the twins, Dauf would have no purpose in this story anymore. JUST KILL THE ANNOYING BUGGER. Clare disappears out of the lair to escape the falling rubble that's caused by Dauf's own metal rods."

Part 3

"Riful sensing that her partner Dauf will stand no chance against Clare, decides to join in the fight. But thats after warning Renee that if she tries to escape, it would be more than the 3 limbs that were destroyed the previous time! As though Renee will care much about the threat. She has decided to escape regardless of the situation because either way she would have died if she stays to see Raphaela/Luciela awaken. Like how the 7 Ghosts managed to escape Isley's wrath in the North, Renee decides to pop a Yoki Suppresant to remain undetectable from Riful as she attempts her escape."

Part 4

"There's only one good reason to kill Riful off, and that is to save Yagi hours from drawing Riful's awakened form. Riful comes out to meet Clare, who at this point of time regrets having to face Riful alone by herself. However Riful's attention is drawn towards Renee instead, her yoki has suddenly disappeared from her detection! RUN RENEE RUNNNNN!!! RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!!!"

Part 5

"The bitch has no luck I'm telling you. In the midst of her escape, Renee encounters Dauf, who obviously tries to stop the poor Claymore #6. But #6 Renee isn't much to be trifled with either, other than being the Eye of the Organisation, her speed is unparalleled in the current ranks. Thus escaping such a retarded useless thing like Dauf is of course child's play. As expected Dauf is unable to catch up, thus Riful decides to pursue Renee herself."

Part 6

"With Riful and Dauf pursuing the doomed Renee, Clare enters the lair to find the sleeping sisters Raphaela and Luciela. And thus the chapter ends at another cliffhanger, will we FINALLY get to see the sisters Awaken in the next chapter??? This also successfully splits the story into two right now. We definitely have Clare's side of the story with the sisters that are about to awakened. And Riful/Dauf's encounter with Alicia and Beth plus the zombies, with Renee in the mix as well. However for Clare to meet Raki, Renee must somehow convey Raki's message to Clare but they have split up before even meeting each other!!!!! My guess is that Priscilla and Raki's part of the story will come when Riful's and the twins resolve their arc, and Renee gets to meet Clare after that."

It makes for an interesting read, that's for sure. Uh oh, I just had a terrible thought strike me. What if the Abyss Feeders following Riful's scent lead Alicia/Beth astray in a way?

What I mean is that they're following the oldest scents, and Renee may be leading Riful away from her lair in such a way that Riful is not the first one Alicia/Beth come into contact with; Claire would be the one they first meet. Essentially as Claire is probing the youki of Raciella (and speeding her along to an awakening (be it partial or complete) accidentally), Alicia/Beth show up and due to her being near the "shell" of Raphaela, decide to take her out. Claire is then engaged in a fight for her life. Dauf? Torn apart by Abyss feeders or Alicia. Riful comes in late to gain revenge, turning things into an epic 3-way fight.

Scenario 2 is more conventional.

-Renee is just about to be captured when Alicia/Beth happen upon her. Claire winds up fighting Dauf and is forced to release her youki, causing Raciella to stir at last. Helen/Denve, I'm willing to bet, wind up saving or capturing Renee. They then begin the "needle in a haystack" task of finding a cloaked Cynthia/Yuma. Much luck with that!

Kerubin

2009-05-01, 02:52

Actually I thought we would finally see Alicia and Beth in this chapter, but oh well =/

I have a feeling Yagi would not show Raciela in the next chapter just to toy with our feelings, we will probably see Renee's escape. Renee will either bump into the Ghosts, or Alicia and Beth.

ARGHH I CAN'T WAIT TO SEE EVERYONE HAHA!

shippU

2009-05-01, 03:38

Kerubin, we grok you deeply X)

revan5's Conventional Scene (2) seems more likely to happen, though we'll only know for sure when we know for sure.. AnB + AE in battle with Clare=mindblowing scenario, would give arm & leg to see that. How far are Helen and Deneve from the current location? Can't see them arriving in time to save Renee's speedy butt, unless they picked up Dietrich's teleporting talents. but wait...if they're on next month's cover...

ooh, the possibilites. but DENEVE MUST NOT DIE. For what it's worth, willing to bet it will be a 4 way mix of Riful, AnB, Marathon Renee and the AE.

these acronyms r killing me

Sleepy Speculator

2009-05-01, 05:47

lol Deneve can't die only come close to dying...

Still waiting on translations but some interesting things in that chapter... Clare catching Duff's rod shows she's incredibly strong compared to her first encounter. And from what i gather she still hasn't released her yoki...

It looked like Clare formed a plan to collapse the entire ceiling on Duff, and threw the rod at a support pillar on purpose, of course even Riful wouldn't want the ceiling to collapse. :)

Clare's weird resonance/headache... Well as far as i can tell she didn't fiddle with Raphealla but it was enough to cause something to happen which never happened when she met Raphealla either as Clare or Teresa. I just hope Clare doesn't go join the group hug as things would just get super freaky from that point..

PGilis

2009-05-01, 07:33

Probably in the next chapter Raphaciella will wake up, and then we will have the answer to the big question what keeps poping up in our mind:

How the heck merged-Raph is naked, when the last time we saw her she was hugging Luciela fully clothed and armed (chapter 64, pages 34-35) ?! :heh:

On another question, it's interesting to note it seems Clare is still not a match to Duff. Of course, his armor give him the better protection against Clare's fast-based tecnics. That makes Helen the only with the tecnic able to kill him.

rukori

2009-05-01, 10:52

You're forgetting Clare wasn't using her full power...

revan5

2009-05-01, 11:03

You're forgetting Clare wasn't using her full power...

That's exactly right. So while the 'windcutter' technique might not work against Dauf, a powered-up Quicksword would certainly do something. That's not even counting the possibility that Claire would pull out her awakening of her arms and slice up Dauf like she did Rigardo. If she can kill the Awakened No 2, we shouldn't necessarily believe her when she says she stands no chance against Riful.

More likely Claire wouldn't win at the moment without pushing herself beyond where she feels comfortable. That's probably why she wouldn't win. But if she attacked with Miria, the matter becomes a whole other ballgame. It appears to me that both Claire & Miria are just below No 1 level. In other words, they'd give Irene a real fight, and most likely would win on their own against someone like her.

tenken627

2009-05-01, 11:05

Scenario 2 is more conventional.

-Renee is just about to be captured when Alicia/Beth happen upon her. Claire winds up fighting Dauf and is forced to release her youki, causing Raciella to stir at last. Helen/Denve, I'm willing to bet, wind up saving or capturing Renee. They then begin the "needle in a haystack" task of finding a cloaked Cynthia/Yuma. Much luck with that!

That might happen.

Since Riful chased after a speeding Renee, the scenario I am hoping for is that Dauf returns inside since he's left behind and finds Clare next to Raciela. Then Dauf vs Clare Round 4 happens and while the fight is going on, Raciela starts to Awaken. Then Raciela eats Dauf.

revan5

2009-05-01, 11:13

That might happen.

Since Riful chased after a speeding Renee, the scenario I am hoping for is that Dauf returns inside since he's left behind and finds Clare next to Raciela. Then Dauf vs Clare Round 4 happens and while the fight is going on, Raciela starts to Awaken. Then Raciela eats Dauf.

I sincerely hope Raciella doesn't eat Dauf. That would mean she's going to completely awaken (in all fairness, a number of people here want to see that happen), and I'm rather hopeful she'll kill Dauf as she "partially" awakens and only rips him apart.

clarakiss~

2009-05-01, 11:14

Then Raciela eats Dauf.

raciela eat dauf? since when can an awakened can eat another awakened? i say dauf with fall prey to the abyssal feeders too and alicia + beth and some of the remaining abyssal feeders will dispose of the loli stripper girl. :)

tenken627

2009-05-01, 11:23

Oh, Raciela will fully Awaken. And she will Awaken while Riful is away handling Renee and then Alicia + Beth.

Riful + Dauf's death is already on the wall. It's the end of the "old order of powers" in the 3 AOs (Riful, Isley, Luciela).

And Raciela eats everything, including ABs. She does have two mouths to feed afterall "nom nom cookies".

And when Raciela turns her attention to Clare after eating Dauf, Teresa will take over Clare's body and escape back to where Cynthia is helping Helen heal.

And so it was written.

tenken627

2009-05-01, 11:39

Saw a rough page by page Chinese -> English translation thanks to pigpie from the OM forums.

I will try to do a translation. My Chinese isn't fantastic... so I will probably get a lot of mstakes... but you will get the gist of it

Page 1.

Page 2.

Clare : An abandon castle , *no idea what she said in the second bubble*

Clare : I can feel it, deep within this castle, the yoki of the abyssal of the west Riful, still the same as last time, hiding her yoki. There's also another weaker Yoki, that of a warrior.

Clare : I can't sense the new fighting force Riful was talking about , if it was Rafaella ,not being to sense it would make sense.

Clare : Wait, I can sense it, a yoki stronger than that of the warrior in the castle.

Page 4.

Clare :But what's happening ? * something about the yoki* could this yoki belong to Rafaella ?

Riful : !

Renee : !

Riful : Didn't they move a bit ?

Page 5

Renee : No, No it wasn't, I didn't feel any movement.

Riful : Is that so?... Maybe I was wrong

Renee : How could that be ? It couldn't have happened so fast.

Renee : It's a fact that they are awakening from their comatose state because I interfered with their thoughts. but it's just from my thoughts, it's not possible for them to have any physical response.

Page 6.

Renee :Even if they have any physical response, it must have been due to something else and that must have made a huge impact on them.

Riful : Speaking of which, you are taking a very long time to rejoin your legs. Aren't you done?

Renee : I am sorry... it took me a while to rejoin my bones, now I am starting to rejoin the flesh.

Riful : That's so slow, you should have gotten use to things like this.

Riful : What happened?

Page 7

Duff : Why you..

Duff : Damn.. where is it?...where is it hiding?

Page 8

Duff : Over there!

Duff : Damn it... constantly running and hiding.

Page 9

Riful : That idiot...I specifically told him not to awaken here.

Riful : I will go check on the situation. You stay here and regenerate your leg.

Riful : If you ever think of running, you can forget about it. With the state you are in, you won't even be able to get away from Duff.

Renee : I understand.

Riful : Seriously, always taking matters into his own hands

Page 10.

Renee : If I am able to regenerate to the point where I am able to escape from the guy is good enough

Renne : Their awakening from the comatose state... is it caused by what's happening above ?

Renee : Whatever... whatever is happening isn't in my control anymore

Renee : This is my last hope

Page 11

Page 12.

Duff : Ouch..It hurts.

Clare : Is she coming ?

Duff : Why you!..playing this game of hide and seek.

Page 13

Riful : Wait up...let me ask you... what are you doing here alone?

Duff : No... it's not like that... just now there were 3 women in black cloak... and than 1 of them came on the castle without my knowing.

Riful : Woman in black cloak?

Page 14

Riful : tsk

Duff : Riful? What are you doing removing your clothes in bright day light?

Riful : Hold on to it for me... there isn't anything else for me to change into... I don't want to waste it.

Riful : You get back down and watch the woman carefully.

Riful : The woman in black cloak without any Yoki... I remember you.

Page 16-17

Riful : You still have huge debt you have yet to pay.

Page 18

Clare : I was able to lure her out that's for sure, but I didn't expect her to be in her awakened form.

Clare : My body is all brusied up and in pain and here's Riful ready to find me...

Clare : This is bad...if this goes on...moving would be....

Clare :!

Riful : !!

Riful : The yoki of the warrior I captured has disappeared?

Page 19

Riful : Yoki suppression pills

Riful : Are you kidding me?...

Riful : DUFF... If you find that warrior capture her and cut her into pieces.

Duff : !

Page 20

Duff : No need for that.

Page 21

Duff : Don't try to run. Idiot

Duff : ****... Can't catch up... her leg's completely healed

Duff : This is bad Riful...she's too fast... I can't catch up

Riful : Tsk

Page 22

Riful :Alright.. if that's how you underestimate me... I will follow what I just said and cut you up into pieces

Clare : !!

Page 23

Clare : Holding on to a suppression pill and trying to find a chance to escape

Clare : But her opponent's Riful....trying to escape successfully is...

Clare : My head... feels like it getting ripped open

Clare : Anyhow... since I am here to find the warrior Rafella...I should go

Page 24-25

Clare : What am I doing here?

And I'm guessing the raws are still not out yet? Does anyone know?

tunjee01

2009-05-01, 11:46

Raws out on mangahelpers

tenken627

2009-05-01, 11:49

Raws out on mangahelpers

Ah cool, I see it now.

Nice, that means the first Japanese -> English scanlations might be out today.

Ryus

2009-05-01, 12:39

I sincerely hope Raciella doesn't eat Dauf. That would mean she's going to completely awaken (in all fairness, a number of people here want to see that happen), and I'm rather hopeful she'll kill Dauf as she "partially" awakens and only rips him apart.

Oh, Raciela will fully Awaken. And she will Awaken while Riful is away handling Renee and then Alicia + Beth.

Riful + Dauf's death is already on the wall. It's the end of the "old order of powers" in the 3 AOs (Riful, Isley, Luciela).

Ah! The how far will she awaken debate. Time to throw in my two cents...

I personally am hoping and believing she will only partially awaken. I don't think Yagi is going to drag this story out (on the island) much longer, so adding an all powerful opponent makes little since. Plus if they defeat her now the reast of the story would be lame and anti-climatic. I mean true maybe Clare + Ghosts and friends take on Raphieclia (or whatever we're calling her) then the survivors assault the Organization but how does Priscilla fit into that and how many Abysmal Feeders does the org have make the fight interesting and fitting of one of the final 2 fights in Claymore (at least on the island).

Riful's downfall seems close at hand, there are a few reasons why she might live but they don't make too much since if the story is all about fighting the bigger enemies. Clare seems so close to a #1 now that it seems pointless to me for Riful to live. I mean sure she might escape only to be killed later but that would require a reason (to show Clare's new strength later or to show others Clare's new strength later). (Joke: Maybe she'll escape only to merge with Priscilla, LOL!)

How the heck merged-Raph is naked, when the last time we saw her she was hugging Luciela fully clothed and armed (chapter 64, pages 34-35) ?! :heh:

My guess is Riful took them off (or made Dauf do it) because even though there comatose they still make BO. A naked merging Raphaela and Luciela are easier to clean.

Also maybe her old outfit is laying around somewhere so she can get into it later once she partially awakens. Or maybe...

...Duff : Riful? What are you doing removing your clothes in bright day light?

Riful : Hold on to it for me... there isn't anything else for me to change into... I don't want to waste it. ...

...Riful's extra small dress is what Raciela will wear. To me the first case of an awakened being caring about there clothes screams there was no purpose to that unless it was for Raciela. Plus Raciela would only really need an extra small dress if she partially awaken and didn't fully awakened.

In short it's like Clare giving Jean her cloak after Jean partially awakened. The purpose of the two outfit possibilities (more likely is Riful's outfit) to me implies at least one of them is for Raciela after she Partially Awakens.

tenken627

2009-05-01, 12:57

Ah! The how far will she awaken debate. Time to throw in my two cents...

I personally am hoping and believing she will only partially awaken. I don't think Yagi is going to drag this story out (on the island) much longer, so adding an all powerful opponent makes little since. Plus if they defeat her now the reast of the story would be lame and anti-climatic. I mean true maybe Clare + Ghosts and friends take on Raphieclia (or whatever we're calling her) then the survivors assault the Organization but how does Priscilla fit into that and how many Abysmal Feeders does the org have make the fight interesting and fitting of one of the final 2 fights in Claymore (at least on the island).

Riful's downfall seems close at hand, there are a few reasons why she might live but they don't make too much since if the story is all about fighting the bigger enemies. Clare seems so close to a #1 now that it seems pointless to me for Riful to live. I mean sure she might escape only to be killed later but that would require a reason (to show Clare's new strength later or to show others Clare's new strength later). (Joke: Maybe she'll escape only to merge with Priscilla, LOL!)

I don't know if the story is going outside of the Claymore island. The story is supposed to only run through 25 volumes, or about 60 more chapters. It's possible that it could go to the mainland, but maybe only at the end for some ultimate "showdown". Who knows though, even after a long 13 or so years maybe Yagi will have a change of heart and keep the story running longer.

Just because Raciela would fully Awaken now doesn't mean that she would be defeated. I don't think the Clare and the rest of the Ghosts together can take her on right now. They probably couldn't even take Riful right now. They are still significantly lower in power level against Riful, let alone Raciela.

Awakened

2009-05-01, 13:01

Interesting chapter, Clare and Racilia soul-link. I wonder what surprise Yagi is going to give us?

Ryus

2009-05-01, 13:24

I don't know if the story is going outside of the Claymore island. The story is supposed to only run through 25 volumes, or about 60 more chapters. It's possible that it could go to the mainland, but maybe only at the end for some ultimate "showdown". Who knows though, even after a long 13 or so years maybe Yagi will have a change of heart and keep the story running longer.

Just because Raciela would fully Awaken now doesn't mean that she would be defeated. I don't think the Clare and the rest of the Ghosts together can take her on right now. They probably couldn't even take Riful right now. They are still significantly lower in power level against Riful, let alone Raciela.

25 volumes you say... or 60 more months (I can't wait that long, lol). We a lot happened in the last 60 chapters (90 in total)... However they don't have to go to the mainland, the main land could come to them. Miria all but proved it existed and Yagi's writing style seems that he uses everything he talks about and leaves out nothing. So I believe the mainland will serve some purpose later.

IMHO Riful's dress will serve some purpose later too. Whether it will be all Dauf has to remember Riful with or it will be given to Raciela. I don't see any purpose of it being given back to Riful.

You are right if Raciela fully awakened it doesn't mean she would be defeated now. However IMHO I see Dauf as serving no more purpose (so he'll die) and he has Riful's dress for some reason. Dauf will likely head back to Raciela since he can't keep up with Renee, so the dress will likely be in the castle at the time Dauf dies or loses it (note I didn't see Dauf with it when he chased after Renee so it's likely at the castle anyway). So I running with the theory that Raciela will only partially awaken (or maybe not awaken at all, but that seems far less likely to me) and the dress is for her. Except for Clare's dream of Teresa I don't recall any nude Claymore fight scenes, so I believe this trend will keep and the dress is for Raciela. I see no purpose in an awakened being wanting that dress so a fully awakened Raciela likely won't want an extra small dress.

I'm just seeing more in chapter 91 pointing towards a partially awakened Raciela then a fully awakened Raciela. Plus if she only partially awakens she will likely help Clare more fully merge with Teresa. True she may have done all she's going to do with helping Clare more merge with Teresa but it feel right to me for some reason, I might change my mind once I can read chapter 91 in English but at this moment that's my theory.

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-05-01, 13:26

Nice Chapter :D

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/903/riful1.jpg (http://img152.imageshack.us/my.php?image=riful1.jpg)

Awakened

2009-05-01, 13:26

Sleepy Speculator

2009-05-01, 13:28

Ryus

2009-05-01, 13:29

I'm not trying to bring up old post war, but did anyone notice how Clare casually exposed herself to Duaf and then escaped?
Compare that to when Clare was with Cynthia and Uma, she did noting until Duaf attacked.

I'd prefer we not talk about this until there is an English translation... I want to be able to join in the debate. :D

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-05-01, 13:29

:p Only bad thing is I notice a continuing trend. First, we get mooned by a horsey, and now we get mooned by Duff.

Ryus

2009-05-01, 13:32

If the last line is literally: what am i doing here?

I'd laugh if that line is Teresa's consciousness and not Clare's. Clare walks in and Teresa walks out... Duff returns and gets his arms ripped off, Cynthia and Yuma try and convince Teresa they are friends etc etc...

:bow: Please Yagi! Please! :bow:

Ryus

2009-05-01, 13:33

:p Only bad thing is I notice a continuing trend. First, we get mooned by a horsey, and now we get mooned by Duff.

How long until we get mooned by a Dragon? :p

Edit: Weren't we mooned by a two tailed Cat too?

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-05-01, 13:34

Awakened

2009-05-01, 13:37

I wonder if Rubel somehow knew if Rafaela would have that kind of reaction to Clare's presence. There seems to be some sort of connection that we don't know about between either Clare and Rafaela or Teresa and Rafaela, at least more than was shown before.

Yep, something unexpecting is going to happen. Ruble told Raphael that Teresa had died. There must have been some interest in Teresa by Raphael.

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-05-01, 13:40

Yep, something unexpecting is going to happen. Ruble told Raphael that Teresa had died. There must have been some interest in Teresa by Raphael.

Yeah, and it seems that something in Clare drew her towards Rafaela, and now we see that Rafaela is effected by Clare's mere presence. So the reaction is mutual.

Ryus

2009-05-01, 13:41

Yeah, and it seems that something in Clare drew her towards Rafaela, and now we see that Rafaela is effected by Clare's mere presence. So the reaction is mutual.

She's the new Jean! :p

Edit: Sorry Raki
Edit 2: Lets not forget Raciela might literally get saved from fully awakening form inside Riful's castle by Ceresa, LOL.

shippU

2009-05-01, 13:45

And there I was thinking it was just Riful running out of wardrobe options^.^ Assuming the translation's right, she does say that it's her only piece of dress.

Two bits on Raciela's awakening: I do think she will awaken or rather regain some kind of consciousness. But she will not, methinks, either fight Clare or the Ghosts, or even Riful - whose death at the hands of AnB does seem imminent. From tenken's translation it becomes clear that her 'awakening' will lead to significant revelations for Clare. I can't imagine what, but it does feel like it's the Teresa in her that's responding and making Raciela respond as well. Will this mean a boost up for Clare who, powerful as she seems right now, probably won't stand a very good chance going solo against the likes of Priscilla yet? Will it be something else? Hard to predict.

I do want very much to see Rafaela find some peace at last, without being turned into the next big villain. That just seems wrong somehow.

It's probably redundant to say that the Clare-Raciela meeting is going to throw things into further high gear. The Abyssal Ones' days *are* over, as a lot of folks pointed out, and the story needs to clear up some subplots, return its/our attention to the 2 main plots: Clare's revenge, however it may turn out; and the Ghosts vs Org bit. That's enough material for at least the next 30-40 chapters.

Will the story actually venture beyond the island? My guess wold be 'no', though I'd be happy to be disproved. But it's a No with the small clause that the Dods might actually intervene on the island itself. As of now, the war on the mainland has no emotional links to the ongoing story, thus any journey yonder would have to first gain more resonance to be justifed. Claymore was never just our typical kill-'em-n-leave-'em manga.

Funnily enough, it's only this battle with Dauf that gave me a real idea of Clare's new strength. I was almost yelling 'duck!' at that armourhead guy...

Awakened

2009-05-01, 13:46

She's the new Jean! :p

You might be right, Racilia might die for Clare. Raphaela had such a sad life its hard to tell if Yagi is going to kill her off or let her put her past behind her and move on to become Jean Jr.

Gooral

2009-05-01, 13:50

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-05-01, 13:52

If Raciella awakens, it will probably be the end of Alicia. The org rushed in, without knowing what they were going to be facing. It might be the end of Riful as well.

Ryus

2009-05-01, 13:52

And thanks tenken for quoting pigpie's translation.

Ditto That!

Ryus

2009-05-01, 13:53

If Raciella awakens, it will probably be the end of Alicia. The org rushed in, without knowing what they were going to be facing. It might be the end of Riful as well.

It the end of somebody, that's for sure!

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-05-01, 13:56

:D Out of curiosity, back in the Witches Maw, how did Riful manage to preserve her dress when switching to Awakened Form? ;) I don't remember a, "here hold this duff," back then. :heh:

tenken627

2009-05-01, 13:59

25 volumes you say... or 60 more months (I can't wait that long, lol). We a lot happened in the last 60 chapters (90 in total)... However they don't have to go to the mainland, the main land could come to them. Miria all but proved it existed and Yagi's writing style seems that he uses everything he talks about and leaves out nothing. So I believe the mainland will serve some purpose later.

Yep, well we are currently in Volume 17 right now (Volume 16 contains chapters 84-89), so just about 8 more Volumes to go. I'm guessing that the Extra Scenes are included, since they were added to Volume 13 and Volume 14, so about exactly 52 more chapters if it goes to 25 volumes exactly (Volume 1 and 2 had only 4 and 5 chapters respectively). From the time skip to now has been about 27 chapters by itself.

The climax would be at least over 10 chapters? The battle of Pieta itself was 12 chapters.

I agree that the mainland will figure more and more prominently in the future chapters. Rubel already confessed that he was a spy from OE forces from the mainland (even though everyone pretty much knew that). I just don't know if there will be a large scene shift to the mainland with a whole new plotline. But maybe it will.

IMHO Riful's dress will serve some purpose later too. Whether it will be all Dauf has to remember Riful with or it will be given to Raciela. I don't see any purpose of it being given back to Riful.

Ah, you see that there is some significance in Riful giving her dress to Dauf and not just an excuse to give loli fans to drool on themselves. You could be right, but I don't see Dauf surviving much longer either.

And how is Raciela going to wear that little thing? Right now you couldn't put that tiny potato sack dress around the two bodies fused together lol.

It might be a device Yagi used in showing Riful's inevitable death. She has no more clothes left after this one, and she might never need one again.

You are right if Raciela fully awakened it doesn't mean she would be defeated now. However IMHO I see Dauf as serving no more purpose (so he'll die) and he has Riful's dress for some reason. Dauf will likely head back to Raciela since he can't keep up with Renee, so the dress will likely be in the castle at the time Dauf dies or loses it (note I didn't see Dauf with it when he chased after Renee so it's likely at the castle anyway). So I running with the theory that Raciela will only partially awaken (or maybe not awaken at all, but that seems far less likely to me) and the dress is for her. Except for Clare's dream of Teresa I don't recall any nude Claymore fight scenes, so I believe this trend will keep and the dress is for Raciela. I see no purpose in an awakened being wanting that dress so a fully awakened Raciela likely won't want an extra small dress.

I'm just seeing more in chapter 91 pointing towards a partially awakened Raciela then a fully awakened Raciela. Plus if she only partially awakens she will likely help Clare more fully merge with Teresa. True she may have done all she's going to do with helping Clare more merge with Teresa but it feel right to me for some reason, I might change my mind once I can read chapter 91 in English but at this moment that's my theory.

I'm sorry, I don't exactly follow you.

What do you mean by a partially-awakened Raciela?

A Raciela still physically in a dormant state, but with her mind or yoki active? Would she be conscious?

Or do you mean partially-awakening like how Clare partially-awakens her various limbs?

Or do you mean a partially-awakening state like crossing the 80% threshold and able to transform back into a human state right after?

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-05-01, 14:06

@tenken

I think you are right about Riful handing her dress to Duff as saying that she will die soon. It is a very effective writing device that a good writer would use.

revan5

2009-05-01, 14:23

Yep, well we are currently in Volume 17 right now (Volume 16 contains chapters 84-89), so just about 8 more Volumes to go. I'm guessing that the Extra Scenes are included, since they were added to Volume 13 and Volume 14, so about exactly 52 more chapters if it goes to 25 volumes exactly (Volume 1 and 2 had only 4 and 5 chapters respectively). From the time skip to now has been about 27 chapters by itself.

The climax would be at least over 10 chapters? The battle of Pieta itself was 12 chapters.

I agree that the mainland will figure more and more prominently in the future chapters. Rubel already confessed that he was a spy from OE forces from the mainland (even though everyone pretty much knew that). I just don't know if there will be a large scene shift to the mainland with a whole new plotline. But maybe it will.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ah, you see that there is some significance in Riful giving her dress to Dauf and not just an excuse to give loli fans to drool on themselves. You could be right, but I don't see Dauf surviving much longer either.

And how is Raciela going to wear that little thing? Right now you couldn't put that tiny potato sack dress around the two bodies fused together lol.

It might be a device Yagi used in showing Riful's inevitable death. She has no more clothes left after this one, and she might never need one again.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm sorry, I don't exactly follow you.

What do you mean by a partially-awakened Raciela?

A Raciela still physically in a dormant state, but with her mind or yoki active? Would she be conscious?

Or do you mean partially-awakening like how Clare partially-awakens her various limbs?

Or do you mean a partially-awakening state like crossing the 80% threshold and able to transform back into a human state right after?

I believe the last one is what they meant, not the other ones. Although, given how Dauf is still in the area, I expect that maybe the conjoined twins will react to Claire being attacked by Dauf and rip him apart with a partially awakened limb. Then we'll see Claire align her youki with theirs (perhaps involuntarily), and eventually we'll get a new, partially awakened being staring her in the face. I personally cannot wait to see that happen.

As for why this is going to happen, well, let's think about the balance of power on the island.

The ghosts currently rank dead last, though they certainly are doing better now that Isley is gone and they have Galatea, Miata & Clarice on friendly terms with them. But with the Org not only having Alica & Beth, but also a full complement of Claymores and Abyss Feeders, the Ghosts need some additional firepower.

Enter Raciella, who evens the "balance-of-power" on the island in their favor. With her aligned with Claire, the Ghosts finally have the strength to take on the Org full-throttle. Miria & Claire are near No 1 material, but they're not there yet. In the meantime Raciella will help even things out for them. At least, that's my prediction.

MisterJB

2009-05-01, 14:33

Edit: Weren't we mooned by a two tailed Cat too?

I don't see the problem there.

Oh, please, Don't bring Teresa back.

It would be cool if, after Claymore ends, Yagi started a new manga that would happen in the Mainland

hell88

2009-05-01, 14:43

It would be cool if, after Claymore ends, Yagi started a new manga that would happen in the Mainland

I think it's called Claymore.:eyespin:

This chapter was cool, Clare kicks ass.

Ryus

2009-05-01, 14:48

Ah, you see that there is some significance in Riful giving her dress to Dauf and not just an excuse to give loli fans to drool on themselves. You could be right, but I don't see Dauf surviving much longer either.

And how is Raciela going to wear that little thing? Right now you couldn't put that tiny potato sack dress around the two bodies fused together lol.

It might be a device Yagi used in showing Riful's inevitable death. She has no more clothes left after this one, and she might never need one again.

I don't see Dauf living either.

As to how she'll fit into the dress... We'll I have some dirty thoughts. Very short skirt, skin tight with maybe a tear or two, and the upper half like a wonder bra. :naughty:

Intersecting idea about it being used to foreshadowing of her death. I like.

I'm sorry, I don't exactly follow you.

What do you mean by a partially-awakened Raciela?

A Raciela still physically in a dormant state, but with her mind or yoki active? Would she be conscious?

Or do you mean partially-awakening like how Clare partially-awakens her various limbs?

Or do you mean a partially-awakening state like crossing the 80% threshold and able to transform back into a human state right after?

Man your right, I wasn't clear. Now I see you meant fully awaken as in fully merging and then awakening from her coma. I meant it as that too plus since she's merging with an AO it would cause her to then fully awaken (as in going past 80%) but Clare would pull her back from going over her limit.

In short since she'd be merging so fast she would just naturally go over her limit while still awakening from her coma (so she'd have no control over it) but Clare is there to stop that and make her a partially awakened being. Clare on the other had has been merging incredibly slowly, like its been going on for at least 15-20 years which is why she wasn't pushed over the edge like I believe Raciela will be.

Ryuken

2009-05-01, 14:48

I think it's called Claymore.:eyespin:

This chapter was cool, Clare kicks ass.

Really need the English translation to see things more clearly.:) I think it's going to take a while.:)

hell88

2009-05-01, 14:50

Really need the English translation to see things more clearly.:)

It doesn't take much to see Clare doing what she does best, especially when Miria is not around.:p

tenken627

2009-05-01, 15:01

I think it's called Claymore.:eyespin:

This chapter was cool, Clare kicks ass.

Welcome back hell88. I don't know what happened, but good to see you back.

I believe the last one is what they meant, not the other ones. Although, given how Dauf is still in the area, I expect that maybe the conjoined twins will react to Claire being attacked by Dauf and rip him apart with a partially awakened limb. Then we'll see Claire align her youki with theirs (perhaps involuntarily), and eventually we'll get a new, partially awakened being staring her in the face. I personally cannot wait to see that happen.

As for why this is going to happen, well, let's think about the balance of power on the island.

The ghosts currently rank dead last, though they certainly are doing better now that Isley is gone and they have Galatea, Miata & Clarice on friendly terms with them. But with the Org not only having Alica & Beth, but also a full complement of Claymores and Abyss Feeders, the Ghosts need some additional firepower.

Enter Raciella, who evens the "balance-of-power" on the island in their favor. With her aligned with Claire, the Ghosts finally have the strength to take on the Org full-throttle. Miria & Claire are near No 1 material, but they're not there yet. In the meantime Raciella will help even things out for them. At least, that's my prediction.

Hmmm, a Raciela that is "human", intelligent, and willing to ally herself with Clare and the Ghosts to take on the Organization?

I don't know... sounds too happy happy joy joy. But that's just me. :p

I'm not even sure if Raciela will be more on the instinctive side or the intelligent side. Will she give in more to her hunger and acts on impulses or will she be cunning/manipulative?

So, if you believe that after Raciela "Awakens" and goes back to a human form (as opposed to staying in a true Awakened form), will Raciela's human form still be of Rafaela and Luciela bound in that position? I imagine that it would be really awkward to walk around like that.

Or will she have a single normal human body (hopefully with Luciela's features)?

Ryuken

2009-05-01, 15:02

It doesn't take much to see Clare doing what she does best, especially when Miria is not around.:p

Well, I'm dying to see Miria and the group at Rabona in a bit of action too.:)

Ryus

2009-05-01, 15:11

Hmmm, a Raciela that is "human", intelligent, and willing to ally herself with Clare and the Ghosts to take on the Organization?

I don't know... sounds too happy happy joy joy. But that's just me. :p

I'm not even sure if Raciela will be more on the instinctive side or the intelligent side. Will she give in more to her hunger and acts on impulses or will she be cunning/manipulative?

So, if you believe that after Raciela "Awakens" and goes back to a human form (as opposed to staying in a true Awakened form), will Raciela's human form still be of Rafaela and Luciela bound in that position? I imagine that it would be really awkward to walk around like that.

Or will she have a single normal human body (hopefully with Luciela's features)?

The happy happy joy joy is the calm before the storm. You can't have nonstop death and destruction without a reprieve or two and still have a full emotional impact on the audience. I believe she will be intelligent but without a goal, unless Clare or someone fills her in on the mainland theory (or something like it).

I believe she will have a single normal human body (hopefully with Luciela's features and wit but Raphaela's moral code and seemingly distant (like Clare too), and maybe a minor scar...). As to her goals I can't say since she will no longer be trying to kill her sister but still not an AO so not trying to gain power. I believe she will just feel compelled to follow Clare. (It be funny if she decided to team up with Rubel instead).

tenken627

2009-05-01, 15:18

Man your right, I wasn't clear. Now I see you meant fully awaken as in fully merging and then awakening from her coma. I meant it as that too plus since she's merging with an AO it would cause her to then fully awaken (as in going past 80%) but Clare would pull her back from going over her limit.

In short since she'd be merging so fast she would just naturally go over her limit while still awakening from her coma (so she'd have no control over it) but Clare is there to stop that and make her a partially awakened being. Clare on the other had has been merging incredibly slowly, like its been going on for at least 15-20 years which is why she wasn't pushed over the edge like I believe Raciela will be.

Ah I see now. You meant that as of this moment, Luciela and Raphaela haven't already fully merged yet (soul/mind/yoki-wise) and are still in that process.

That's an interesting theory and one many others share.

I believe that they already were fully merged and probably already had one mind, but it is very possible that the two separate and distinct minds of Luciela and Raphaela are still there.

The happy happy joy joy is the calm before the storm. You can't have nonstop death and destruction without a reprieve or two and still have a full emotional impact on the audience. I believe she will be intelligent but without a goal, unless Clare or someone fills her in on the mainland theory (or something like it).

I believe she will have a single normal human body (hopefully with Luciela's features and wit but Raphaela's moral code and seemingly distant (like Clare too), and maybe a minor scar...). As to her goals I can't say since she will no longer be trying to kill her sister but still not an AO so not trying to gain power. I believe she will just feel compelled to follow Clare. (It be funny if she decided to team up with Rubel instead).

I don't know. When has Claymore ever been particularly "happy happy joy joy"? It's just not that type of manga.

So you believe that Raciela would be more like Raphaela (in mind) than Luciela?

revan5

2009-05-01, 15:23

Awakened

2009-05-01, 15:27

I don't think Riful will die. She is currently chasing after Renee. It would have been easier to kill her if she had stayed in her hideout, now that she is running around her chances of escaping has increased.

From a plot point of view, she might die. If she joins with the ghosts, the ghost would be the strongest on the island (assuming the Org is not hiding some supper powerful puppet).

MalakTawus

2009-05-01, 15:27

The 25 volume thing is really old,before Claymore had this huge success.....and before the "island" revelation.
I think Yagi has already changed his mind when he enlarged "Claymore-world".
I don't know if the story will go out of the island(i hope so),but i think the DoDs will play a major role in the story,if not it's really stupid to use them as a plot-device.
Imo when Yagi decided to expand the world he decided to expand the story as well,there is no way he can close the story at vol.25 at this point (well,he can if he rushes things a lot but now that this manga is a world-wide success it isn't very wise....), 'cause every time he closes an "arc",something bigger happens.....probably i'm wrong but this feels like some sort of introduction to a world-scale conflict,maybe it won't happen but surely Yagi has an open door ahead.
As if it wasn't enough, now it's quite obvious that Priscilla isn't the real enemy in the story;of course something will happen between Priscilla and Claire,but the more the story goes on the more i think they won't kill each other.
The org. seems to be the real villain....but if Rubel express the Dods' policy it's not like they are angels either....they may be worse than the org.....

About ch.91:
I think that Raph will be the cause to a huge change in Claire,and maybe like some of you already suggested (if the translation is correct) she'll cause Teresa's awakening inside of Claire or some sort of soul-link-fusion......all i know is that the story NEEDS Claire to be uber-strong sooner or later to take the lead of this complex plot,so if she isn't already hiding some BIG surprise this situation surely is a good opportunity to change drastically Claire.

Final consideration:
Now the org. has Alicia,but she can't be the solution for the war in the main continent,and even the abyssal-eaters aren't very usable in that situation,so.....don't you think that soon (well ok, not soon) we'll see the perfect abyssal-warrior?Afterall the creation of these perfect-warriors is the final purpose for this island (to win the war).

ThoHell

2009-05-01, 15:39

Crap, it keeps getting more interesting and then the damn chapter ends and then the long months wait arrives....ugh...

revan5

2009-05-01, 15:39

The 25 volume thing is really old,before Claymore had this huge success.....and before the "island" revelation.
I think Yagi has already changed his mind when he enlarged "Claymore-world".
I don't know if the story will go out of the island(i hope so),but i think the DoDs will play a major role in the story,if not it's really stupid to use them as a plot-device.
Imo when Yagi decided to expand the world he decided to expand the story as well,there is no way he can close the story at vol.25 at this point (well,he can if he rushes things a lot but now that this manga is a world-wide success it isn't very wise....), 'cause every time he closes an "arc",something bigger happens.....probably i'm wrong but this feels like some sort of introduction to a world-scale conflict,maybe it won't happen but surely Yagi has an open door ahead.
As if it wasn't enough, now it's quite obvious that Priscilla isn't the real enemy in the story;of course something will happen between Priscilla and Claire,but the more the story goes on the more i think they won't kill each other.
The org. seems to be the real villain....but if Rubel express the Dods' policy it's not like they are angels either....they may be worse than the org.....

About ch.91:
I think that Raph will be the cause to a huge change in Claire,and maybe like some of you already suggested (it the translation is correct) she'll cause Teresa's awakening inside of Claire or some sort of soul-link-fusion......all i know is that the story NEEDS Claire to be uber-strong sooner or later to take the lead of this complex plot,so if she isn't already hiding some BIG surprise this situation surely is a good opportunity to change drastically Claire.

Final consideration:
Now the org. has Alicia,but she can't be the solution for the war in the main continent,and even the abyssal-eaters aren't very usable in that situation,so.....don't you think that soon (well ok, not soon) we'll see the perfect abyssal-warrior?Afterall the creation of these perfect-warriors is the final purpose for this island (to win the war).

Agreed. It seems that Claire & the Raphaela/Luciella being are pushing each other to some point beyond which we may all drop dead from anticipation in seeing. It does seem like something of Teresa's consciousness may be coming out in Claire's mind right now.

Wouldn't that be entertaining? Of course, if Claire's hair all of a sudden changes to that of Teresa's, the whole community is going to explode. That kind of a change I'm sure would get everyone either up in arms or slobbering for more.

The only thing that might top it would be a triple or even quadruple merge between Claire (with Teresa's consciousness inside her), Rafaela & Luciella with Dauf coming in to get slaughtered as the new being awakens still resembling Claire.

Ryus

2009-05-01, 15:49

If she joins with the ghosts, the ghost would be the strongest on the island (assuming the Org is not hiding some supper powerful puppet).

I won't debate whether Riful will "join" the ghosts but if the mainland is real then we know the organization has at the very least reinforcements if they feel desperate enough to call upon them. Since there purpose of the mainland Claymores is to awaken in battle there is a good chance they will be mostly male Claymores.

Of course your right, they may have a new toy also... or at the very least a new batch of stronger trainees waiting for open slots.

Plus how are the ghosts going to beat the organization unless they kill... Will we have a we can't kill anyone cause it's bad arc soon?

MalakTawus

2009-05-01, 15:55

Well,a quadruple merge between Claire,Teresa,Raph. and Luc. would be FAR ABOVE the concept of "uber-strong warrior"......she simply would destroy all her enemies in an istant (well,she would destroy the story itself...).......it will never happen but i admit i'd love to see how Yagi would draw this war-goddess.....

revan5

2009-05-01, 15:58

I won't debate whether Riful will "join" the ghosts but if the mainland is real then we know the organization has at the very least reinforcements if they feel desperate enough to call upon them. Since there purpose of the mainland Claymores is to awaken in battle there is a good chance they will be mostly male Claymores.

Of course your right, they may have a new toy also... or at the very least a new batch of stronger trainees waiting for open slots.

Plus how are the ghosts going to beat the organization unless they kill... Will we have a we can't kill anyone cause it's bad arc soon?

I'm fairly certain, given Teresa's willingness to kill humans, that if Miria won't do it, Claire will. Of course, the Ghosts will probably avoid trying to kill too much...wouldn't want to lose the moral high ground as revolutionaries, would you? That said, the real question comes when they have to face other Claymores. If they can't knock out someone like Dietrich, will they eventually clench their teeth and kill her if that's their only option of survival?

MisterJB

2009-05-01, 16:06

Oh my God, Dauf is blushing. She does that during night?
http://i44.tinypic.com/jauan4.png

MalakTawus

2009-05-01, 16:12

Well,Claire and Miria can knock-out all the other normal-warriors (Alicia & Beth aren't normal obviously).
Alicia and Beth are the only ethic problems since it's not very clear if they are still "humans" or simple weapons.
The abyssal eaters aren't a problem in this sense,and if the org. is hiding (or will create in the future) some other uber strong warriors i bet they'll be very evil so that there won't be a problem.
About the Dods.....evil too??? (evil=no problem)

LONEWOLF13

2009-05-01, 16:17

I won't debate whether Riful will "join" the ghosts but if the mainland is real then we know the organization has at the very least reinforcements if they feel desperate enough to call upon them. Since there purpose of the mainland Claymores is to awaken in battle there is a good chance they will be mostly male Claymores.

Of course your right, they may have a new toy also... or at the very least a new batch of stronger trainees waiting for open slots.

Plus how are the ghosts going to beat the organization unless they kill... Will we have a we can't kill anyone cause it's bad arc soon?

Mainland Claymores....mmm i hope they exist they must be scarred men or women vetarans with low moral who dont have any problems with killing humans.

Killing something is easy when it is diffrend from your own kind such as an monster but when its human it can be alot more difficult unless you are trained with it or have absolutley no moral at all.

tenken627

2009-05-01, 16:43

I'd believe it, considering it was Raphaela that killed her sister first. Sure she let her life-energy flow into her, but that's not the same as having her mind joining Luciella's (yet). I imagine what will happen is that Claire will be left with an individual that is very hard to convince to do anything other than follow Claire. Sure she might fight to protect Claire, but somehow I think things won't be so simple as they were with Jean after her rescue by Claire.

So which is it? Two seperate minds or one mind? You say that Raphaela's mind hasn't joined together with Luciela yet, but then you say that Raciela will be an individual that will follow Clare.

The 25 volume thing is really old,before Claymore had this huge success.....and before the "island" revelation.
I think Yagi has already changed his mind when he enlarged "Claymore-world".
I don't know if the story will go out of the island(i hope so),but i think the DoDs will play a major role in the story,if not it's really stupid to use them as a plot-device.
Imo when Yagi decided to expand the world he decided to expand the story as well,there is no way he can close the story at vol.25 at this point (well,he can if he rushes things a lot but now that this manga is a world-wide success it isn't very wise....), 'cause every time he closes an "arc",something bigger happens.....probably i'm wrong but this feels like some sort of introduction to a world-scale conflict,maybe it won't happen but surely Yagi has an open door ahead.
As if it wasn't enough, now it's quite obvious that Priscilla isn't the real enemy in the story;of course something will happen between Priscilla and Claire,but the more the story goes on the more i think they won't kill each other.
The org. seems to be the real villain....but if Rubel express the Dods' policy it's not like they are angels either....they may be worse than the org.....

I believe we've been over this before. Unlike what you state, Claymore is not that popular in Japan. It is popular in China and overseas, but domestically Claymore really only has a small but loyal following.

And yes, Yagi may change his mind to go past volume 25, but he has never retracted his statement as of yet. At this rate, by the time volume 25 is finished, Yagi will be 47 years old (by Japanese standards). If he decides to go another 5 more years, he'll be 52 (very very old for a mangaka).

That will be almost 20 years of his life devoted to one story, well into old age.

I'm not complaining if he does continue (even though I don't know if I will be reading mangas for another 10 years), but that's a long time and people get tired of it. I just don't want the story to deteriote over extreme old age like Guyver (started in 1985) and especially Berserk (started in 1989) which is still not finished because Kentaro Miura has been working on it so long that he takes frequent 6 month breaks literally to play Idolmaster.

http://img.qj.net/uploads/articles_module/67456/idolmaster_qjpreviewth.png

MalakTawus

2009-05-01, 16:46

Wow!Now that i have read the english scanlation it's a bit different (if the translation is correct)....Claire was CALLED by Raph,so it seems there is no Teresa's awakening....
but it's still very strange,Raph should have known Teresa very well to be this influenced by Claire.
....but why Raph couldn't feel Teresa when she met Claire before?
Maybe 'cause after the semi-awakening during Pieta's battle something else has changed inside of Claire?

Newhope

2009-05-01, 16:58

It's more than likely Raph recognised Claire even if they only met the once, and the fact that she summoned or beckoned Claire is a good sigh that Rafaela is the one in control or in the very least it has her memories.

MalakTawus

2009-05-01, 17:01

So which is it? Two seperate minds or one mind? You say that Raphaela's mind hasn't joined together with Luciela yet, but then you say that Raciela will be an individual that will follow Clare.

I believe we've been over this before. Unlike what you state, Claymore is not that popular in Japan. It is popular in China and overseas, but domestically Claymore really only has a small but loyal following.

And yes, Yagi may change his mind to go past volume 25, but he has never retracted his statement as of yet. At this rate, by the time volume 25 is finished, Yagi will be 47 years old (by Japanese standards). If he decides to go another 5 more years, he'll be 52 (very very old for a mangaka).

That will be almost 20 years of his life devoted to one story, well into old age.

I'm not complaining if he does continue (even though I don't know if I will be reading mangas for another 10 years), but that's a long time and people get tired of it. I just don't want the story to deteriote over extreme old age like Guyver (started in 1985) and especially Berserk (started in 1989) which is still not finished because Kentaro Miura has been working on it so long that he takes frequent 6 month breaks literally to play Idolmaster.

http://img.qj.net/uploads/articles_module/67456/idolmaster_qjpreviewth.png

I know 52 is old for a mangaka,but it's not like there is a rule for it.
And btw it's absolutely false that Claymore isn't popular in japan.Almost all the other manga that are more popular are 1 week release!It's not the same thing.
And btw, the recent anime and the DS videogame could be an economical success,and Claymore is being licensed in a lot of states outside of japan.
You have your opinion (that makes perfect sense),but i'll stay with mine since i don't think Yagi will complete Claymore at vol.25.

About ch.91
@Newhope:
I doubt she had that huge reaction only 'cause she remember Claire (that she met only once for an istant), i think she feels Teresa.

revan5

2009-05-01, 17:05

So which is it? Two seperate minds or one mind? You say that Raphaela's mind hasn't joined together with Luciela yet, but then you say that Raciela will be an individual that will follow Clare.
http://img.qj.net/uploads/articles_module/67456/idolmaster_qjpreviewth.png

I believe right now that Raphaela's mind, alone of the two minds, is still alive. Luciella, well, it's anyone's guess; however my guess is that her conscience is essentially dead, leaving only her memories.

Essentially what I mean is that in order for a single merge to occur, Raphaela's active mind will have to merge itself with the memories of her sister. Thus you get Raciella, an individual with the memories of both sisters but the thought patterns of Raphaela.

That's how I picture it Tenken. Sorry for not clarifying.

hell88

2009-05-01, 17:09

Oh my God, Dauf is blushing. She does that during night?
http://i44.tinypic.com/jauan4.png

Riful is a lot older than she looks, so in a way it really isn't disturbing at all.;)

Newhope

2009-05-01, 17:10

MalakTawus

2009-05-01, 17:23

And why would senseing Teresa have anymore of a impact on Rafaela than Claire She only met both of them very briefly , I personally think she started to wake up because she felt someone familiar.

This is wrong.We know nothing about Teresa-Raph relationship, 'cause what we know for certain it's only their FIRST encounter.It's very possible that they met other times,infact Rubel says to Raph that "Teresa is dead",not "our actual number 1 is dead",like he knew that they knew each other personally.
.....and btw Raph seemed very interested in Terese (she even asked her name,and for a warrior like Raph this is A LOT of interest),instead Raph didn't care at all when she met Claire,it was one of her jobs,nothing more.....and well, if she actually felt Teresa inside Claire she hided her surprise very well.

tenken627

2009-05-01, 17:45

I know 52 is old for a mangaka,but it's not like there is a rule for it.
And btw it's absolutely false that Claymore isn't popular in japan.Almost all the other manga that are more popular are 1 week release!It's not the same thing.
And btw, the recent anime and the DS videogame could be an economical success,and Claymore is being licensed in a lot of states outside of japan.
You have your opinion (that makes perfect sense),but i'll stay with mine since i don't think Yagi will complete Claymore at vol.25.

False.

As you can see from here http://comipress.com/article/2008/12/31/3733 no volume (tankoubon) of Claymore has ever broken into the top 50 for 2008, even though as you can see there are plenty of monthly manga series on there.

2008 Top 50 Ranking
Rank Title (Volume #) Circulation
1 One Piece (50) 1,678,208
2 One Piece (51) 1,646,978
3 Nana 19) 1,645,128
4 One Piece (49) 1,544,000
5 Nana 20) 1,431,335
6 Nodame Cantabile (20) 1,209,551
7 Nodame Cantabile (21) 1,205,037
8 Naruto (43) 1,188,881
9 Naruto (42) 1,092,295
10 Fullmetal Alchemist (19) 1,081,575
11 Fullmetal Alchemist (20) 1,032,637
12 Bleach (34) 874,153
13 Hunter X Hunter (25) 863,240
14 Hunter X Hunter (26) 837,714
15 Hana Yori Dango (37) 815,648
16 Naruto (44) 812,612
17 Bleach (33) 802,692
18 Bleach (35) 761,802
19 Naruto (41) 707,447
20 Kimi ni Todoke (7) 649,089
21 Kimi ni Todoke (6) 636,176
22 D.Gray-man (15) 632,495
23 Pluto (6) 631,968
24 Vagabond (28) 630,147
25 Detective Conan (61) 626,445
26 Kateikyo Hitman Reborn! (20) 613,934
27 D.Gray-man (14) 596,850
28 Detective Conan (62) 590,947
29 Kateikyo Hitman Reborn! (19) 584,411
30 D.Gray-man (16) 578,669
31 Kateikyo Hitman Reborn! (21) 534,739
32 Ookiku Furikabutte (10) 534,624
33 Kuroshitsuji (4) 529,210
34 Gintama (24) 524,031
35 Bleach (32) 519,631
36 Ouran High School Host Club (12) 513,007
37 Ouran High School Host Club (13) 496,388
38 Gintama (23) 485,816
39 Kuroshitsuji (5) 468,550
40 Real (8) 453,193
41 Gintama (25) 453,112
42 Yotsuba&! (8) 452,793
43 XXXHOLiC (13) 451,942
44 Detroit Metal City (5) 432,563
45 Detective Conan (63) 429,857
46 Saint Oniisan (2) 428,611
47 Ookiku Furikabutte (11) 426,470
48 Saint Oniisan (1) 424,821
49 Kateikyo Hitman Reborn! (22) 402,194
50 Detroit Metal City (6) 393,068

An easy way to determine popularity is through sales of it's Volumes (chapters put together in one book instead of actual magazine sales).

*1　1,678,208　ONE PIECE 50
*2　1,645,128　NANA －ナナ－ 19
*3　1,209,551　のだめカンタービレ 20 / Nodame Cantabile 20
*4　1,188,881　NARUTO－ナルト－ 43
*5　1,081,575　鋼の錬金術師 19 / Full Metal Alchemist 19
*6　*,874,153　BLEACH－ブリーチ－ 34
*7　*,863,240　HUNTER×HUNTER 25
*8　*,815,648　花より男子 37 / Hana yori Dango 37
*9　*,649,089　君に届け 7 / Kimi ni Todoke
10　*,632,495　D.Gray-man 15
11　*,631,968　PLUTO 6
12　*,630,147　バガボンド 28 / Vagabond 28
13　*,626,445　名探偵コナン 61 / Meitantei Conan
14　*,613,934　家庭教師ヒットマン！ 20 / Kateikyo Hitman Reborn 20
15　*,534,624　おおきく振りかぶって 10 / Ookiku Furikabutte 10
16　*,529,210　黒執事 4 / Kuroshitsuji 4
17　*,524,031　銀魂－ぎんたま－ 24 / Gintama 24
18　*,513,007　桜蘭高校ホスト部 12 / Ouran Koukou Host Club 12
19　*,453,193　リアル 8 / Real 8
20　*,452,793　よつばと！ 8 / Yotsuba&! 8
21　*,451,942　×××HOLiC 13
22　*,432,563　デトロイト・メタル・シティ 5 / Detroit Metal City 5
23　*,428,611　聖☆おにいさん 2 / Sei-Onii-san 2

germanturkey

2009-05-01, 18:27

i waited a month for that? :(

MisterJB

2009-05-01, 18:32

Riful is a lot older than she looks, so in a way it really isn't disturbing at all.;)

Loli body. Loli body.

Dauf is a pervert. And Isley is one too.

Is Clare a pervert?

Aimless

2009-05-01, 18:41

It might be a device Yagi used in showing Riful's inevitable death. She has no more clothes left after this one, and she might never need one again.

The significance seems obvious to me. It's a premonition of Duff's death.

Why? Loli-dress smells like loli. And guess who's coming for dinner? :heh:

Korinov

2009-05-01, 18:53

Just read it and still digesting, but... how many times did Duph got pwned in only 25 pages? :D

hell88

2009-05-01, 18:55

Loli body. Loli body.

Dauf is a pervert. And Isley is one too.

Is Clare a pervert?

Lol, the body doesn't change the fact how old she is.:heh:

Hard to say Dauf is a pervert or not? Does he even know what that is? Besides back in those times people were very young before they would first start doing it and getting married. On to Easley, it's hard to say if he is a pervert, he doesn't seem to be the type to have done anything to Priscilla.

As well on to Clare, again hard to say. Back in those times their was no such thing as child molestation or anything, intimacy was intimacy no matter who you were.

On to other things, personally I think the only people that are perverts are the ones on this thread that are thinking about what the characters could be doing to each other.

MalakTawus

2009-05-01, 19:41

germanturkey

2009-05-01, 19:55

well 7 years later, she better be more powerful.. she probably looks the same awakened, but her speed and strength probably shot up quite a bit.

creb

2009-05-01, 20:17

I'm curious to see if Yagi intends to make something of how both Teresa and Claire were drawn to Rafaela. Unfortunately, I can't really think of the why for it.

Considering how easily Isley died, I don't hold out much hope for Riful - who rivals Ophelia for being my favorite Claymore character. Which saddens me. If it isn't whatever monstrosity this Raf/Luci creature is, then I'm sure the Alicia/Beth combo will do her in. I can only hold out hope that before she dies, Riful will at least be allowed to 'rip to shreds' that traitorous bitch Renee. :p There's a limit to how many times our resident super polite (I can just picture her and Galatea having tea and sighing to each other at how rude today's youth are) and cute Abyssal one should be allowed to be made a fool of, even if she is just a foil to be used by Yagi.

germanturkey

2009-05-01, 20:19

i don't think she'll be killed that easily. she's easily one of the smartest characters in the claymore world and will probably be used for story development down the road.

Freya

2009-05-01, 20:23

tenken627

2009-05-01, 20:41

It's true that there are a lot of manga more popular than Claymore in Japan,but i began to follow this manga YEARS ago when even the raws where almost impossible to find in internet (i had a mirc-friend that scanlated it for me),and english translations were just a dream.....when in june 2005 it was licensed in Italy i couldn't belive it!
And look at the situation now!
Claymore is a well known manga in the world and sells really well (probably a lot better than japan in some states).....and it's not like american,european and chinese money are less important than jap money......
The anime is being localized in a lot of languages,a new game will be out soon......
Are there mangas more successful?Yes!A lot!....but that doesn't change the fact that Claymore is a huge successful manga,and that its popularity is stll rising.

That's true, it is much more popular now than it was before. I don't know how much Yagi gets from overseas licensing fees, but I don't think its that much. And most Americans, Europeans, and Chinese don't really buy the material, they mostly just read the fan-scanlated versions on the internet for free.

I do think that more and more people overseas are getting into Claymore, and I do hope that it becomes more successful and popular domestically. I just don't know if that would justify elongating the story for years more (more than the 13 total years that it's currently paced at).

Btw,soon we'll probably see Alicia fight,so my question is: do you think she'll be the same as the pre-time-skip or do you think Yagi changed her a bit to make her look more powerful?

Pre-time skip, Alicia wasn't fully completed or stable yet. While the general Awakened form probably will stay the same, I wouldn't be surprised if there are added extra features like machine guns coming out of her forehead, 4 cup holders, and makes a beeping noise when she backs up.

yezhanquan

2009-05-01, 20:47

Torri_fay_torren@hot

2009-05-01, 20:52

Yagi really likes to leave a person hanging.

necrosis6

2009-05-01, 21:02

Just read the chapter, quite interesting. If the translation on onemanga is correct, then Clare said that she would be killed the second she got spotted by Riful. Still quite a power gap between them, not that it matters since all the AO will be dead soon enough anyways.
That said, I hope that the reaction between Clare and Racilia is handled well. To me Clare is strong enough as is right now, she doesn't need a power up. If Clare ever got to the power of an AO, then the power gap between her and everyone else would just be too ridiculous. That said, I think that the best way to deal with this meeting between Racilia and Clare is to set a precedent of Teresa appearing inside Clare and talking to her. I think that Teresa appearing to talk to Clare when Clare has fully awakened will be the key to Clare going back human. Racillia will simply awaken the Teresa inside Clare, hopefully without a huge power boost too.
When Clare does go fully awakened, probably very soon after seeing Pricillia, Teresa will appear in her mind spank Clare and say to fight like a human not like a monster. Clare goes back to human form, Raki gets killing by some debree that's thrown about causing Pricillia to get distracted and get decapitated by Clare. That way both Raki haters, Pricillia haters and Clare lovers are all happy.

Bikerider

2009-05-01, 21:07

With each chapter It's becoming more and more that Riful is a cat and not a human. She is behaving in every way like one. This chapter, no deviation.

Freya

2009-05-01, 21:32

Ierno to me at this point if Clare does go awakened because of Priscilla, then that's just pathetic.....yeah I know that's been like her main goal and what not but after ALL this. If that's what makes her go over......sigh.

graywolf202

2009-05-01, 21:54

Just read new chapter.

Finally,.... we're getting some Riful fanservice.:p

Not that I was asking for it or anything.:heh:

Vinak

2009-05-01, 22:34

so Clare is forcefully being drawn to Raphaela. How interesting.

Sassarai

2009-05-01, 22:35

Where did half the pages go? cry

Cyclone

2009-05-01, 22:37

revan5

2009-05-01, 22:50

I'm curious to see if Yagi intends to make something of how both Teresa and Claire were drawn to Rafaela. Unfortunately, I can't really think of the why for it.

I'm more interested in why on earth Claire feels like she is "connected to it". That's pretty strange if it is just a chance encounter. It probably has something to do with the fact that A) they're both 2-in-1s, or B) Teresa & Raphaela were a lot closer than we initially thought.

My guess is that the two of them experimented around with soul links with one another, or if not that, then they were life-long friends. This could explain why Rafaela had shut down after killing her sister. After all, with Claire being presumably dead (Teresa's successor, who she met once), what then was the point in living? With Teresa's youki setting off her conscious thoughts, I expect that what Rubel said about Claire & Raphaela getting along well probably has a lot of Teresa-Raphaela history behind it.

I'm beginning to think Teresa slunk off to see Raphaela more than once, and that perhaps Rafaela helped train her (on the sly, as it were).

Vinak

2009-05-01, 23:08

well it would make sense to have Teresa test herself against someone equal to a number one...who we know turned into an AO.

shippU

2009-05-01, 23:10

wow.....what are u guys gonna say now? 1 month for 25 pgs? nothing much happened. im sure the other authors could do the technical backgrounds and texture and etc. its not that hard.

Seriously nothing big in this chapter. Disappointed.

I disagree. Let's see: (1) Clare and Dauf mix it up and we see that she's a match for him on her own (2) Renee escapes and if she gets out alive from this mess, she'll be reporting events pretty soon to the Org (3) Raciella MOVES, a prelude to awakening or semi-awakening (4) Riful awakens, is now chasing the other R and is likely to bump into you-know-who twins (5) We learn that Clare still doesn't consider herself near Riful's level of power (6) Clare, intending to save R2, winds up in the lair instead. That's a number of things, a bridge to the next few chapters sure, but hardly inconsequential.

The major surprise, if that's the word for it, is how Clare & Raciella are drawn to each other. Cyclone's reasoning is the one I currently subscribe to as well. Though saying it's Teresa responding/drawing her to Raciela, or Raciela drawing her in, doesn't necessarily imply that Teresa and Rafaela knew each other well. It could just be two powerful & unusual yoki resonating to each other's presence.
Clare definitely isn't going to walk away from this encounter the same old Clare.

I wish May was over :(

Edit: Let's all pray the Org doesn't get its hands on Raciela. That would be major Horror with a capital H.

Thank you @tenken below x)

tenken627

2009-05-01, 23:27

I don't know. Nothing in shrimpy's translation points to Teresa ever being involved with anything involved to why Clare is drawn to Raciela.

The "2-in-1" comment was by a different forumer who tried an early translation, and that could be just his/her own comment as to why Clare headed deep into Riful's lair where Raciela is.

I'm pretty sure that Teresa fans very much love the fact that Teresa may have had some type of hand in it (and God knows how many Teresa fans there are) and possibly allude to more future scenes of Teresa, but it's not that clear cut. But I like the way you think shippU. :hyper-^v^:

BlackShaman

2009-05-01, 23:43

Clare's instinct to merge with others brought her to Raciella. After Teresa's blood, Raki's kiss, Irene's arm, Ophelia's will and the so-wanted head of Priscilla, she probably just want something from Raciella. ;)

Seriously, I would love to think this is related to Teresa.

Ryus

2009-05-02, 00:06

Ah I see now. You meant that as of this moment, Luciela and Raphaela haven't already fully merged yet (soul/mind/yoki-wise) and are still in that process.

That's an interesting theory and one many others share.

I believe that they already were fully merged and probably already had one mind, but it is very possible that the two separate and distinct minds of Luciela and Raphaela are still there...

...So you believe that Raciela would be more like Raphaela (in mind) than Luciela?

Actually I believe most, if not all, of Luciela's mind was lost when she awakened... So personality wise what we all saw of Luciela was an AB without much (if any) humanity left unlike others we have come to know. Since her mind was inside Raphaela at the time she awakened or lost to oblivion when Raphaela wasn't able to hold on to it anymore.

So if my understanding of the process is correct then maybe some of the Luciela that was in Raphaela might have been left in her if she held on to even the tiniest fraction of it. In other words the Raphaela we all have seen throughout the story thus far might have been part Raphaela with a little bit Luciela.

Now as to the merging of Raphaela and Luciela, some of Luciela might be restored after the bodies have fully merged right but eventually more of Luciela might come back. Like how Clare has slowly became a bit more like Teresa as the story has progressed.

From my reading of Luciela as an AO she was a very basic person, nothing deep. I don't mean she was dumb in any way, she was as intelligent as any adult but her emotions and desires weren't beyond a childs. In short everything was about her. I felt she insulted Isley to make herself feel better but insults were at an adults level. She was happy to see her sister only because family help each other so logically Raphaela would help her. Finally when she was begging for her life the only thing that came to her mind was something she valued, power, so that's what she offered Raphaela to stop hurting her. So in short Luciela's personality is a void, so add Raphaela's and Luciela's personalities (or minds as you called it) and you get Raphaela. So X+0=X.

AO Luciela was nothing more than a doll that looked like her past self. That is why I believe Raphaela killed her. It also why Raphaela paused when Luciela first greeted her, for a fleeting moment poor Raphaela thought her sister was still there. She realized how wrong she was only a few moments later and fixed her mistake.

Also as to them being fully merged right now, I'd say there not. They might be real close mental but I doubt its fully merged since I believe a mind needs a body to define itself. In short the ingredients have been mixed but its not a loaf of bread yet. There bodies IMO are clearly only in the process of merging and they will have one shared body (and mind) soon.

At least IMHO.

Hmmm, a Raciela that is "human", intelligent, and willing to ally herself with Clare and the Ghosts to take on the Organization?

I don't know... sounds too happy happy joy joy. But that's just me.

I don't know. When has Claymore ever been particularly "happy happy joy joy"? It's just not that type of manga.

As to the happy happy joy joy, I believe there have been subtle moments. Like when Clare remeet Helen and Deneve in Pieta and was happy they where alive, Jean did stop that form getting too "happy happy joy joy" but I felt it when everyone realized Miria was alive too. I really felt "happy happy joy joy" in the Teresa arc every time Teresa looked at Clare, once Teresa had excepted Clare that is. There are a few other moments where I felt happiness in the story too. Your right this isn't that type of manga but it does have moments where the story hints at it, usually just enough for the moment sometimes a bit more. Lets not forget remeeting Galatea and her then allying herself with the ghosts. Or them accepting Clarice and Mitia...

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-05-02, 00:49

:p Anyway, I am glad that it comes out that Clare does lie, again, honorably. Her mind wanted to save Renee, even though her body walked to Rafaela.

Bikerider

2009-05-02, 00:55

IN a way this could save Rene... Clare waking Raffy-Lu will have Riful running back to the castle forgetting about her. Proably will have Alicia - Beth racing even faster when they sense the new power yoki.

Ryus

2009-05-02, 00:57

And why would senseing Teresa have anymore of a impact on Rafaela than Claire She only met both of them very briefly , I personally think she started to wake up just because she felt someone familiar.

I agree that it likely has nothing to do with her past meeting of Teresa. However I believe it has nothing to do with recognizing Clare either. I believe it might have more to do with Clare not being as delicate and careful when sensing Raciela's mind than Renee was. So I think Raciela's mind (to avoid the Raphaela is in control or Luciela debate) is clinging onto her and drawing strength from her mind to awaken. I can't disprove that it was because Raphaela recognized either Teresa or Clare but that feels like saying 1+1=3, we need a reason why Raphaela recalling Teresa or Clare would cause her to draw Clare to them.

I would like to point out that I don't recall Irene or Priscilla saying Clare's aura felt like Teresa's in the manga (Priscilla did in the anime). So I have to ask a rhetorical question, do you think Clare's aura is the same as Teresa's? and why? Galatea did say that Alicia and Beth could more perfectly align there auras since they where made from the same yoma but she said nothing about them having the exact same aura all the time... (at least that's what I gathered from the Engilsh translation I read.)

Clare being pulled to Raciela does make me wonder if Clare will think this is bad and try to escape... Or if she stays force her to release her Yoki to save herself from the yoki release from the merger, since she won't be able to leave ground zero. Maybe she can manipulate it so she won't have to release her yoki but then again that sounds wrong... On the plus side it should allow Miria and group plus Helen and Deneve to find Clare easily and quickly. Plus it could be used a plot device to let us finally see Clare's new strength.

That is if the English translation was correct in the dialogs true meaning...

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-05-02, 00:58

:p Even though Renee has left the scene, I think somehow, someway, she is going to end up right back there. I am going to be very surprised if Renee makes it to the org, because she has a purpose, and that is to pass Raki's message to Clare. It would be all for not otherwise.

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-05-02, 01:01

I would like to point out that I don't recall Irene or Priscilla saying Clare's aura felt like Teresa's in the manga (Priscilla did in the anime). So I have to ask a rhetorical question, do you think Clare's aura is the same as Teresa's? and why? Galatea did say that Alicia and Beth could more perfectly align there auras since they where made from the same yoma but she said nothing about them having the exact same aura all the time... (at least that's what I gathered from the Engilsh translation I read.)

You don't need what Priscilla said in the Anime, because what Priscilla said explicitly, Irene said Implicitly. I don't know if the Aura is the same or similar, but Irene sensed the Teresa in Clare.

Ryus

2009-05-02, 01:31

As you can see from here http://comipress.com/article/2008/12/31/3733 no volume (tankoubon) of Claymore has ever broken into the top 50 for 2008, even though as you can see there are plenty of monthly manga series on there.

2008 Top 50 Ranking
Rank Title (Volume #) Circulation
1 One Piece (50) 1,678,208
2 One Piece (51) 1,646,978
3 Nana 19) 1,645,128
4 One Piece (49) 1,544,000
5 Nana 20) 1,431,335
6 Nodame Cantabile (20) 1,209,551
7 Nodame Cantabile (21) 1,205,037
8 Naruto (43) 1,188,881
9 Naruto (42) 1,092,295
10 Fullmetal Alchemist (19) 1,081,575
11 Fullmetal Alchemist (20) 1,032,637
12 Bleach (34) 874,153
13 Hunter X Hunter (25) 863,240
14 Hunter X Hunter (26) 837,714
15 Hana Yori Dango (37) 815,648
16 Naruto (44) 812,612
17 Bleach (33) 802,692
18 Bleach (35) 761,802
19 Naruto (41) 707,447
20 Kimi ni Todoke (7) 649,089
21 Kimi ni Todoke (6) 636,176
22 D.Gray-man (15) 632,495
23 Pluto (6) 631,968
24 Vagabond (28) 630,147
25 Detective Conan (61) 626,445
26 Kateikyo Hitman Reborn! (20) 613,934
27 D.Gray-man (14) 596,850
28 Detective Conan (62) 590,947
29 Kateikyo Hitman Reborn! (19) 584,411
30 D.Gray-man (16) 578,669
31 Kateikyo Hitman Reborn! (21) 534,739
32 Ookiku Furikabutte (10) 534,624
33 Kuroshitsuji (4) 529,210
34 Gintama (24) 524,031
35 Bleach (32) 519,631
36 Ouran High School Host Club (12) 513,007
37 Ouran High School Host Club (13) 496,388
38 Gintama (23) 485,816
39 Kuroshitsuji (5) 468,550
40 Real (8) 453,193
41 Gintama (25) 453,112
42 Yotsuba&! (8) 452,793
43 XXXHOLiC (13) 451,942
44 Detroit Metal City (5) 432,563
45 Detective Conan (63) 429,857
46 Saint Oniisan (2) 428,611
47 Ookiku Furikabutte (11) 426,470
48 Saint Oniisan (1) 424,821
49 Kateikyo Hitman Reborn! (22) 402,194
50 Detroit Metal City (6) 393,068

An easy way to determine popularity is through sales of it's Volumes (chapters put together in one book instead of actual magazine sales).

I'm new to the is it popular debate so I'd like some question answered so I can better understand whats going on? Sorry but there more to a popularity debate than just the years top 50 list... I can name thousands of very popular books that never made the top 50 list for the year they came out (believe me I read, a lot).

Questions:
How far down the list is Claymore? and How big is the list? (is Claymore ranked 127 out of (lets say) 100,000 or 53,659 out of 100,000) (I'd like to know its upper and lower extreme rankings, its average, and its last few chapters rankings)
What are its average sales? Is that very high, high, above average, average, below average, low, or extremely low?
Is this list the top 50 selling manga volumes of the year? If so I'd like to know how many are monthlies. I'd also like to see a list of just the monthlies (with Claymore on it) so I'd know how far down the monthly list Claymore is (I'd like to know how long the list is too). I feel that would give me a more accurate feeling for its popularity, since publishers have many ways that they rank books.
What are the age ranges of the mangas on the list? In short for its target market how far down the list is it?
Do you have a list of Claymore sale trends? AKA is it gaining more fans or shrinking? (I'd like to see it's history)
How where the publishers sales rankings Claymore and out of how much? (52 out of 500 for example)
How far down the publishers monthlies manga sales rankings is Claymore and out of how many?
How far down the publishers age range manga sales ranking is Claymore and out of how many?
How far down a shounen style list is it and out of how many?
How far down a Girls with weapon list it is and out of how many?
How far down a Fantasy list it is and out of how many?
How far down a Action list it is and out of how many?
How far down a supernatural list it is and out of how many?
Excreta

Please not I'm not asking for giant lists, just where the Claymore Chapters lands on those lists and out of how many?

In short is Claymore a niche market? An above average in popularity (but not one of the main mangas)? Is it a dying in popularity?

These are far more important questions in figuring out if a series would be allowed to continue beyond Volume 25 debate. If allowed to continue then Yagi could choose to write more or choose not to.

Cyclone

2009-05-02, 01:38

I would like to point out that I don't recall Irene or Priscilla saying Clare's aura felt like Teresa's in the manga (Priscilla did in the anime). So I have to ask a rhetorical question, do you think Clare's aura is the same as Teresa's? and why?

Irene - ch 36 - p 14 - verse 1:

I felt a familiar presence and it drew me forth...
But I don't recognize either of you.

(not to mention she guessed it was Teresa who was inside Clare later)

Cyclone

2009-05-02, 01:55

Actually I believe most, if not all, of Luciela's mind was lost when she awakened... So personality wise what we all saw of Luciela was an AB without much (if any) humanity left unlike others we have come to know. Since her mind was inside Raphaela at the time she awakened or lost to oblivion when Raphaela wasn't able to hold on to it anymore.

So if my understanding of the process is correct then maybe some of the Luciela that was in Raphaela might have been left in her if she held on to even the tiniest fraction of it. In other words the Raphaela we all have seen throughout the story thus far might have been part Raphaela with a little bit Luciela.

Now as to the merging of Raphaela and Luciela, some of Luciela might be restored after the bodies have fully merged right but eventually more of Luciela might come back. Like how Clare has slowly became a bit more like Teresa as the story has progressed.

From my reading of Luciela as an AO she was a very basic person, nothing deep. I don't mean she was dumb in any way, she was as intelligent as any adult but her emotions and desires weren't beyond a childs. In short everything was about her. I felt she insulted Isley to make herself feel better but insults were at an adults level. She was happy to see her sister only because family help each other so logically Raphaela would help her. Finally when she was begging for her life the only thing that came to her mind was something she valued, power, so that's what she offered Raphaela to stop hurting her. So in short Luciela's personality is a void, so add Raphaela's and Luciela's personalities (or minds as you called it) and you get Raphaela. So X+0=X.

AO Luciela was nothing more than a doll that looked like her past self. That is why I believe Raphaela killed her. It also why Raphaela paused when Luciela first greeted her, for a fleeting moment poor Raphaela thought her sister was still there. She realized how wrong she was only a few moments later and fixed her mistake.

Also as to them being fully merged right now, I'd say there not. They might be real close mental but I doubt its fully merged since I believe a mind needs a body to define itself. In short the ingredients have been mixed but its not a loaf of bread yet. There bodies IMO are clearly only in the process of merging and they will have one shared body (and mind) soon.

At least IMHO.

While I do agree with you on a lot of what you say, I disagree on 2 points.

Firstly, I think you're underestimating just how much of Luciela that Raphaela was lugging around with her.

More importantly though, you ascribe Luciella's childish priorities with not having a personality. I disagree. I think the lust for power and desire for gratification are side products of the awakening process. It seems to be what happens to all ABs after awakening - their libido skyrockets as does their desire to be the strongest, most powerful one around. The only ABs that did not have an overt lust for power are those who had their butts kicked by stronger ABs (Duff, Rigaldo,). Riful and her friend making method is equally questionable. Ophelia was blinded to her own desire to eat flesh and even managed to explain it away to herself. I do no think this behaviour is in any way confined to just Luciella.

Going out on a limb, I think it's this human common sense and restraint that is what is destroyed by the youki (youki = demon energy. Expressions like "Possessed by demons" and "Inner Demons" come to mind) in the awakening process.

Ryus

2009-05-02, 02:05

You don't need what Priscilla said in the Anime, because what Priscilla said explicitly, Irene said Implicitly. I don't know if the Aura is the same or similar, but Irene sensed the Teresa in Clare.

In the translation I read Irene never mentions that she felt the same as Teresa, only that she felt a familiar presence. Irene then figured out it was Clare she was sensing. Then she had an unconscious Clare in her bed for a week, plenty of time to ponder the question of what she was. Irene could also clearly since how weak she was, hence her having a clue that Clare might be weak for a reason. Then Clare recognized her as soon as she woke up then confirmed she was the little girl with Teresa. Then Irene only asked if Clare had Teresa inside her after knowing who she was. So considering all of that why did she still ask if Clare had Teresa inside of her? Was she unsure? Did she not believe it? Was she in doubt? Did she want confirmation? Did she only sense someone very similar to Teresa and she got curious and went to investigate then stumbled on a mystery?

Also how come Priscilla didn't recognize it when Irene might have? Was it the distance? Was it her disbelief? Was it her fractured mind? Was it the lack of time to ponder what she was sensing? Was she focusing more on Isley and Raki and not focusing on her yoki senses?

So I ask again do you think Clare's aura is the same as Teresa's? and why?

I'm not trying to get people to believe Clare doesn't sense like Teresa. I just want people to question if she does. Since I believe no one has said it implicitly yet. It has been an implied that she feels similar but not that she feels implicitly the same.

Ryus

2009-05-02, 02:39

While I do agree with you on a lot of what you say, I disagree on 2 points.

Firstly, I think you're underestimating just how much of Luciela that Raphaela was lugging around with her.

I debated this myself. I just believe that that it was a smaller portion. Not sure why... maybe just the translation I read. I freely admit you could be right. However we both agree that Raphaela was lugging Luciela around this whole time. Hence why I originally said the "Raciela" we meet later will be like Raphaela.

More importantly though, you ascribe Luciella's childish priorities with not having a personality. I disagree. I think the lust for power and desire for gratification are side products of the awakening process. It seems to be what happens to all ABs after awakening - their libido skyrockets as does their desire to be the strongest, most powerful one around. The only ABs that did not have an overt lust for power are those who had their butts kicked by stronger ABs (Duff, Rigaldo,). Riful and her friend making method is equally questionable. Ophelia was blinded to her own desire to eat flesh and even managed to explain it away to herself. I do no think this behaviour is in any way confined to just Luciella.

Going out on a limb, I think it's this human common sense and restraint that is what is destroyed by the youki (youki = demon energy. Expressions like "Possessed by demons" and "Inner Demons" come to mind) in the awakening process.

First off I do agree with everything you said there. No joke.

Second I knew I had worded that part a weakly but posted anyway since I couldn't figure out how exactly to word it. I went with childish because I was looking for a single word to wrap up her difference with other ABs. I apologize for any confusion I caused by failing to look for more then just a single word to wrap up Luciela lack of humanity. So let me rephrase, I believe that Luciela's personality was an exaggerated version of an ABs because she had no humanity left when every last one of them had some left. Since she had no humanity left the Yoma side filled in the blank spots where the little bit of her humanity should have been. In short what we saw of her wasn't her original personality but the yoma side. I doubt there was any of Luciela in any scene/chapter we've seen "her" in. Since anyone reading this post has clearly read Cyclones excellent quote above you now know how Yoma differ from humans.

For example Isley enjoyed time with Raki (that sounds wrong... :p). However I don't believe Luciela could ever enjoy time with any human, for any reason; with the exception of when she is eating them and toying with them.

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-05-02, 02:44

:D An interesting thing is: Will Cynthia and Yuma think that Riful is chasing Clare when they will sense her? Perhaps, Renee will end up with Cynthia and Yuma; she does have a missing hand after all.

So I ask again do you think Clare's aura is the same as Teresa's? and why?

I'm not trying to get people to believe Clare doesn't sense like Teresa. I just want people to question if she does. Since I believe no one has said it implicitly yet. It has been an implied that she feels similar but not that she feels implicitly the same.

I am not going to go as far as to say the same. The most you will get out of me is similar. For Irene to even make the link, between an unknown Claymore to Teresa, to have to ask is enough evidence for me to imply that Clare's aura is similar. Add onto that, that Clare inherits Teresa's abilities. Add onto that, that Claymore being invisible under the pill or suppressing, implies that the average claymore probably doesn't sense normal ki; otherwise, a Claymore would stand out in a crowd of humans, because humans would be releasing normal ki, while the Claymore would release nothing. I really don't want to get into a debate about any of that, it is just the general gist of my thinking that Irene senses Teresa in Clare. It could've been for a brief instant; it can fluctuate, and opposing viewpoints on the matter are most certainly welcomed. As for why Irene asked a possible rhetorical question. Why do people in general ask rhetorical questions? The same goes with Rafaela asking which one Clare was. It proves nothing: it is human nature to ask those. And in this case, it may not have been rhetorical, since as you say, she may have been seeking confirmation.

Tom Bombadil

2009-05-02, 02:45

I don't know. Nothing in shrimpy's translation points to Teresa ever being involved with anything involved to why Clare is drawn to Raciela.
The "2-in-1" comment was by a different forumer who tried an early translation, and that could be just his/her own comment as to why Clare headed deep into Riful's lair where Raciela is.

I was merely translating the comments of the Chinese poster who made those summaries. Yes indeed no Teresa's name was mentioned in this chapter. But it is clear that there is something special with Clare so that the correlation between her and Raciela is stronger than a regular Claymore like Renee.
Even Renee mentioned the suspected movement was caused by someone/something else.

Ryus

2009-05-02, 03:06

That's true, it is much more popular now than it was before. I don't know how much Yagi gets from overseas licensing fees, but I don't think its that much. And most Americans, Europeans, and Chinese don't really buy the material, they mostly just read the fan-scanlated versions on the internet for free.

I do think that more and more people overseas are getting into Claymore, and I do hope that it becomes more successful and popular domestically. I just don't know if that would justify elongating the story for years more (more than the 13 total years that it's currently paced at).

That depends a bit more on how it's doing a year or two from now. If we have 52 chapters to go (as you guesstimated earlier) then decision time plot wise wouldn't need to happen for a good bit of time still.

For the record I do own every Volume of Claymore and have been debating on buying one of those models. I was checking the net every day for the announcement of volume 15 here in the US (11/3/2009, NOOO! Too far away!) and will keep looking for volume 16s release in the US. I also own the anime and will by the last 2 volumes (even though there the ones with the major plot changes). So Yagi gets money from me. ...That makes me wonder if there's any cool Claymore T-shirts...

As to the Anime I personally couldn't stop laughing when I heard the English Dauf (Dauf about Galatea "She's got some kinda force field, I can't hit her..." :twitch::heh: Riful at Duaf "You idiot! :frustrated: She doesn't have a Magical Force Field! :frustrated:" I loved it. :heh:). However they have made unforgivable dialog changes too... As to that paragraphs relevance; It just popped in my head, I felt like sharing, I'm tired, don't care, and felt like saying it. :p

Cyclone

2009-05-02, 03:08

In the translation I read Irene never mentions that she felt the same as Teresa, only that she felt a familiar presence. Irene then figured out it was Clare she was sensing. Then she had an unconscious Clare in her bed for a week, plenty of time to ponder the question of what she was. Irene could also clearly since how weak she was, hence her having a clue that Clare might be weak for a reason. Then Clare recognized her as soon as she woke up then confirmed she was the little girl with Teresa. Then Irene only asked if Clare had Teresa inside her after knowing who she was. So considering all of that why did she still ask if Clare had Teresa inside of her? Was she unsure? Did she not believe it? Was she in doubt? Did she want confirmation? Did she only sense someone very similar to Teresa and she got curious and went to investigate then stumbled on a mystery?

Also how come Priscilla didn't recognize it when Irene might have? Was it the distance? Was it her disbelief? Was it her fractured mind? Was it the lack of time to ponder what she was sensing? Was she focusing more on Isley and Raki and not focusing on her yoki senses?

So I ask again do you think Clare's aura is the same as Teresa's? and why?

I'm not trying to get people to believe Clare doesn't sense like Teresa. I just want people to question if she does. Since I believe no one has said it implicitly yet. It has been an implied that she feels similar but not that she feels implicitly the same.

OMG! - I just checked the raws on Irene! Eek - how did we miss this!
She actually says:
懐かしい気配に誘われて来てみたが。。。
どちらも知らぬ顔だ

This is now significant as:
誘う (sasou) = to invite; to call out

The japanese have an annoying ability to string many verbs together into a complex action. In this case 3 verbs: to see, to come, and to invite/call out. It's hard to put into into English though since English doesn't have this ability.

So what Irene actually says is:
(I) came to see a familiar presence calling out/inviting (me).

Aside from that bombshell...

Miria also noticed a presence in Clare. Miria is not the greatest youki sensor (good but not the greatest). So I'm not convinced it's directly related to youki reading.

Instead, I'm begining to get the idea that Teresa is actively protecting her. She grants power when she needs it, does not give much youki when she doesn't. When the situation gets dire, she calls Irene to help. When hunting her first awakened being she gives an indication to Miria that Clare is not useless, and also teaches Clare a new trick. I'm really starting to think Teresa might be less dead than is natural...

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-05-02, 03:11

:upset: The English dub... I usually can enjoy a bad dub, but those liberties like you just mentioned about force fields just change the context of the story. The worst thing about the english dub to me was when Ophelia said someone told her about Clare, changing the context totally.

Cyclone

2009-05-02, 03:23

That depends a bit more on how it's doing a year or two from now. If we have 52 chapters to go (as you guesstimated earlier) then decision time plot wise wouldn't need to happen for a good bit of time still.

For the record I do own every Volume of Claymore and have been debating on buying one of those models. I was checking the net every day for the announcement of volume 15 here in the US (11/3/2009, NOOO! Too far away!) and will keep looking for volume 16s release in the US. I also own the anime and will by the last 2 volumes (even though there the ones with the major plot changes). So Yagi gets money from me. ...That makes me wonder if there's any cool Claymore T-shirts...

You don't want to start the enumeration war of what you buy with me...
- All the US DVDs (vol 5 in the mail today - yay!)
- All the US manga
- subscription to Jump SQ (the shipping cost is brutal)
- Clare 47 model (don't want the other one)
- Teresa Wall Scroll
- One of the CDs
- Neckless (which, since I'm a guy, I hang from my car mirror instead of fuzzy dice)
- pencil board (never figured out what to do with it...)
Generally speaking, if you put anything in front of me with the Claymore logo on it, I will buy it.

I think a lot of us here are paying Yagi.

But yes, there is at least one Claymore t-shirt. The one I know for sure has Clare on it. It's not a great picture, but saddly, it's japanese sizes only so they have nothing that will remotely fit me... :(

Ryus

2009-05-02, 03:27

OMG! - I just checked the raws on Irene! Eek - how did we miss this!
She actually says:
懐かしい気配に誘われて来てみたが。。。
どちらも知らぬ顔だ

This is now significant as:
誘う (sasou) = to invite; to call out

The japanese have an annoying ability to string many verbs together into a complex action. In this case 3 verbs: to see, to come, and to invite/call out. It's hard to put into into English though since English doesn't have this ability.

So what Irene actually says is:
(I) came to see a familiar presence calling out/inviting (me).

Aside from that bombshell...

Miria also noticed a presence in Clare. Miria is not the greatest youki sensor (good but not the greatest). So I'm not convinced it's directly related to youki reading.

Instead, I'm begining to get the idea that Teresa is actively protecting her. She grants power when she needs it, does not give much youki when she doesn't. When the situation gets dire, she calls Irene to help. When hunting her first awakened being she gives an indication to Miria that Clare is not useless, and also teaches Clare a new trick. I'm really starting to think Teresa might be less dead than is natural...

:eek: REALLY!:love:

I NEED TO LEARN JAPANESE!

I can't believe a revelation like that came out of by me debating an all but pointless topic... Cyclone I'll give you some more time to think about that more before I start picking your brain. What's scary is that Teresa would likely be able to sense Irene even though she's been in hiding since she knows her aura and could detect Raphaela.

Ryus

2009-05-02, 03:30

You don't want to start the enumeration war of what you buy with me...
- All the US DVDs (vol 5 in the mail today - yay!)
- All the US manga
- subscription to Jump SQ (the shipping cost is brutal)
- Clare 47 model (don't want the other one)
- Teresa Wall Scroll
- One of the CDs
- Neckless (which, since I'm a guy, I hang from my car mirror instead of fuzzy dice)
- pencil board (never figured out what to do with it...)
Generally speaking, if you put anything in front of me with the Claymore logo on it, I will buy it.

I think a lot of us here are paying Yagi.

But yes, there is at least one Claymore t-shirt. The one I know for sure has Clare on it. It's not a great picture, but saddly, it's japanese sizes only so they have nothing that will remotely fit me... :(

Where can I buy them!?!?!?!

Back on topic: I agree fans abroad buy Claymore. If your reading this and don't buy Claymore then don't speak up, so I won't disown you!

Cyclone

2009-05-02, 03:41

Where can I buy them!?!?!?!

Back on topic: I agree fans abroad buy Claymore. If your reading this and don't buy Claymore then don't speak up, so I won't disown you!

It's been a while, so I'm not sure they're still in print:
There's a post with a picture on the merchandise thread here (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=1080231#post1080231) though.

You may need crawl through japanese sites to find it though - try places like cdjapan and such first though.

MisterJB

2009-05-02, 04:48

Who else agrees that Dauf will be Raciella's first victim?

I mean, he has been sticking poles into them for a long time now and only the Lord knows what he does to them when Riful is out, hunting for powerful Claymores.:upset:

So, I'm calling it now, two 30 pages chapters and Dauf is dead.

Sleepy Speculator

2009-05-02, 05:11

Duff won't last long either way...

Duff's potential run in's include...

Clare - (who can throw his attacks back without changing even her eyes... and constantly lies about her prowess)

An awakened Rafealla+Luciella - either way you look at it both were #1's and they are semi merged at the moment whatever you get out combo wise even if it's both of them on their own and they borrow Clare's sword, he's gonna get killed...

Helen and Deneve - Providing they don't run into Riful, who's out and about because of Clare they could end up running straight into the loitering Duff outside the lair... cue an ironic drillsword death and Deneve using a two handed sword style block to allow it...

At least that's how it looks.

As for the Clare being called, gotta wonder how Raphealla can manage that, they never reacted first time round, and it shouldn't be yoki manipulation because Clare has displayed an ability to break that. The most likely solution is it's Teresa's doing but why?

Charmeya

2009-05-02, 05:19

This Chapter is not a big Deal, only 25 Pictures at most. I'm a little bit dissapointed.

I have a bad feeling that the poor Claymore will now die a painful Death. Who is gonna save her with Riful on her Butt and Alicia and Bess still seems to be far away?

Anima

2009-05-02, 06:52

Very nice chapter.
The English translation seems close enough (in the important bits anyways) as well.

It's starting to make me think differently about everything though. I'm getting a vision of things to come that is diametrically different from anything I had ever considered before.

In this chapter, most of you seem to assume that it's Raciella who is drawing Clare in. But what if it's actually Teresa drawing Clare to Raphaela? (Clearly Clare's being drawn in, because Clare wanted to save Rene, instead)

When you consider this possibility, other quotes from the series start to ring into your head. Miria, in the Slashers arc, says they stopped in the middle of the awakening and maybe it's still going on, just slower. The whole twin goddess idea. Clare's dream of Teresa.

If Teresa's consciousness is awakening in Clare, then possibly it could be controlling Clare in order to meet her old friend, Raphaela.

But this line of thinking changes everything we've ever considered about Raciella - and her awakening:

- Clare would basically start to awaken due to the influence of Teresa's consciousness.
- Raciella, an expert now in the mysteries of soul link and awakening reversal, could easily help turn Clare back. In the process Clare would learn some of Raciella's secret voodoo on how to tap into and control some of Teresa's power (aka turn Super Teresa-jin Lv 1).
- Raciella would then be expendable. Raciella obviously had no intention of awakening for Riful (all her effort would go to waste), so she stayed dormant. What makes most sense is that Raciella would ask to be killed by Clare/Teresa in a scene reminiscent of Elena's.
- Meanwhile Alica&Beth could fight Riful, and all that would be left are: the ghosts, the Org, and Priscilla, and that is a manageable number of foes.

I know it's very speculative, but is my reasoning wrong?
You know that makes it quite scary. As if Teresa is struggling to gain control. I don't see it that way because Teresa has chosen to dedicate her life for Clare I don't see how she would manifest and make her awaken in the process making her lose her humanity that she tried to protect once.

OMG! - I just checked the raws on Irene! Eek - how did we miss this!
She actually says:
懐かしい気配に誘われて来てみたが。。。
どちらも知らぬ顔だ

This is now significant as:
誘う (sasou) = to invite; to call out

The japanese have an annoying ability to string many verbs together into a complex action. In this case 3 verbs: to see, to come, and to invite/call out. It's hard to put into into English though since English doesn't have this ability.

So what Irene actually says is:
(I) came to see a familiar presence calling out/inviting (me).

Aside from that bombshell...

Miria also noticed a presence in Clare. Miria is not the greatest youki sensor (good but not the greatest). So I'm not convinced it's directly related to youki reading.

Instead, I'm begining to get the idea that Teresa is actively protecting her. She grants power when she needs it, does not give much youki when she doesn't. When the situation gets dire, she calls Irene to help. When hunting her first awakened being she gives an indication to Miria that Clare is not useless, and also teaches Clare a new trick. I'm really starting to think Teresa might be less dead than is natural...
Interesting but I think it's more of instinct now not Teresa by herself. Until Raciella awaken and we see the mix of Raf + Luc personality, we would know if Teresa is indeed living inside Clare separately. If Raciella possesses both personality as separate entities (e.g. Gogeta) the it's possible for Clare/Teresa but if it was a whole mixed one with no distinction, then it's another story.

Next chapter is ought to be epic unless Yagi jumps back to Miria and co (which I hope he doesn't).

irvinethearcher

2009-05-02, 07:00

:p Anyway, I am glad that it comes out that Clare does lie, again, honorably. Her mind wanted to save Renee, even though her body walked to Rafaela.

It is not exactly right. She had a headache, droped out and after she was conscious again, she stood before raciella.
The most probably thing is that raciella took over and guided her against her will to her.
But a second alternative is(like cyclone mentioned first) that it was theresa's doing.
I'm sure that theresa is somehow at least passively involved in all this.

Instead, I'm begining to get the idea that Teresa is actively protecting her. She grants power when she needs it, does not give much youki when she doesn't. When the situation gets dire, she calls Irene to help. When hunting her first awakened being she gives an indication to Miria that Clare is not useless, and also teaches Clare a new trick. I'm really starting to think Teresa might be less dead than is natural...

That's indeed interesting. You think that theresa actively called out for irene?
This would imply that theresa's abilities to help clare out are limited. She can not simply take over and beat everyone who endangers her daughter to clump.
Clare was probably drawn from the start to raciella because of that mysterious power. Perhaps it was the reason she left yuma and cynthia alone.

SagaraSouske

2009-05-02, 08:34

Another wild speculation:

The connection between Raphella and Clare is caused by - Irene.
Raph may somehow "merged" with Irene and she may have done that with every warrior she "killed". Although there is awful a lot that needs to be explained for this to make sense.

Traun

2009-05-02, 08:58

But a second alternative is(like cyclone mentioned first) that it was theresa's doing.
I'm sure that theresa is somehow at least passively involved in all this.

Ok, is there any indication, except fandom, that that skinned corpse has some kind of conciseness?

germanturkey

2009-05-02, 09:49

i would think Dauf would get killed by AEs. he's holding something that smell's like Riful anyways. Alicia engages Riful, and they fight to a stalemate of some sort. Wildcard is RxL, cause we don't know what their alliance is.

Vinak

2009-05-02, 09:56

@Traun
to answer your rather crude question. yes, yes their is...

MalakTawus

2009-05-02, 10:24

I thought it was Raph that was calling Claire,but like some of you said it's quite possible that was Teresa herself that made Claire go to Raph......interesting!Very interesting indeed!
I can't wait to see how Yagi will solve this mystery!!!

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-05-02, 10:39

It is not exactly right. She had a headache, droped out and after she was conscious again, she stood before raciella.
The most probably thing is that raciella took over and guided her against her will to her.
But a second alternative is(like cyclone mentioned first) that it was theresa's doing.
I'm sure that theresa is somehow at least passively involved in all this.

How did that contradict what I said? She didn't just magically teleport to Rafaela, she walked there through doors, down stairs and all. But really my point was just that despite her saying that she didn't care to save a warrior she didn't know, when she was presented a choice she chose to go after Renee instead of Rafaela; her body just didn't cooperate for whatever reason and she ended up in front of Rafaela. Clare is always willing to put her current quest on hold when lives are a stake.

FragrantFlora

2009-05-02, 11:20

OMG, how did Teresa get involved in Clare appearing before Raciella?:) In my opinion, thereś a way bigger probability of Raciella being responsible for leading Clare to her.

Gosh, the chapter was too short and not much happened. Unlike before, I think Riful is now much more of an antagonist. Hopefully Clare gets too Renee in time. I personally think Reneeś cool. I don´t want her to die yet.

ChainedPhilosophy

2009-05-02, 12:21

Regarding the Ilena-Clare encounter, I believe that the yoki signature characteristic of Teresa which was embedded in Clare was the one sensed by Ilena. She may not be an excellent yoki sensor like Galatea but remember she's a former number 2 who can read yoki easily. I also believe that Clare had already surpassed Ilena's power since the off-limit awakening she had against Regardo. And what we could actually speculate was that Teresa's latent potentials had begun strongly emanating in Clare's such as acute yoki sensing (may be better than Renee but not on par with Galatea), imminent speed and combatant tactics yet still she isn't Teresa so her powers are far behind the latte

In the present scenario, I believe that Riful's aware of everything to happen. Renee's actually drawing her to Alicia and Beth and she's ready for it. Dauf's gonna follow Riful and a battle is probly to happen in the fields not in Riful's stronghold. Dauf's gonna take down the AEs and Riful - Alicia and Beth. Clare will be responsible for the awakening of Rafaciella and they will both be in the fields too to take down Riful who beats the twins. After then, Clare will turn Rafaela back to human form, leaving a dead Luciela body separated.

The mistery in the drawing forth of Clare in front of Rafaciella may be due to the acute yoki sensing of Teresa which Clare manifested that reached the abyssal-deep consciousness of Raph. Raph responded to this familar yoki signature that it created a magnet to connect their consciousness together. Thence, it is a speculation that Clare, definitely, can acquire the latent potentials of Teresa which were still alive in her blood and flesh. Raph may become an involuntary ally of Clare and a power of raph would then be entrusted to Clare. Remeber, Clare doesn't have her own prowess identity, her potentials were a product of borrowing or bequeathing by powerful Claymore who wanted her to live on.

irvinethearcher

2009-05-02, 12:24

Ok, is there any indication, except fandom, that that skinned corpse has some kind of conciseness?

There are enough indications that theresa is perhaps somehow alive in clare and still has some kind of conciseness. The whole story is full of them.
There is no proof but indications are there. Look at cyclones post.
IMO even if raciella led clare to her it must be because clare is not a claymore with a yoma inside but a former super strong number 1 warrior. This is a passive involvement of theresa.
Why did raciella chose clare and not rene? Only because clare is stronger? Don't think so.
That teresa took over and guided her is far more improbable but it is possible.
A third option is that teresa and raffaella knew each other quite well so raciella somehow recognized her.

And there is something i thought about a lot. How in hell raciella could find clare. IMO she must have lured her in after yuma lost her leg or even before. Clare is still a ghost.
This must be some kind of soul link or theresa is more actively involved than we think.

How did that contradict what I said? She didn't just magically teleport to Rafaela, she walked there through doors, down stairs and all. But really my point was just that despite her saying that she didn't care to save a warrior she didn't know, when she was presented a choice she chose to go after Renee instead of Rafaela; her body just didn't cooperate for whatever reason and she ended up in front of Rafaela. Clare is always willing to put her current quest on hold when lives are a stake.

Yes you are right about the point that clare always put her life on the line for comrades even if she doesn't know them. She is a very altruistic person.
What i wanted to say was that raciella(?) probably took completely over and attacked(?) clare's mind directly. It was not that clare saw her legs and body move in the wrong direction, she was completely knocked out and after regaining consciseness she found herself directly before raciella and had no clue how she got there. So it seemed to me. It is probably just a bagatelle and i used your post to got the attention about this. Or better said, to guide the attention of other users to that point which i find very interesting. How did raciella managed to do this? This is more than yoki manipulation. This must be some kind of soullink. Wasn't yoki supression important to do soullink? Perhaps riful searched for the wrong thing? Perhaps a sensor with good supression abilitys would be needed to separate the sister from each other? Clare is a ghost so she should be good by now at supression too. Hm... but if i'm right about this theresa is perhaps still not involved :(
I want teresa back! :( :(

OMG, how did Teresa get involved in Clare appearing before Raciella?:) In my opinion, thereś a way bigger probability of Raciella being responsible for leading Clare to her.

Gosh, the chapter was too short and not much happened. Unlike before, I think Riful is now much more of an antagonist. Hopefully Clare gets too Renee in time. I personally think Reneeś cool. I don´t want her to die yet.
There were many interesting things above all at the end of the chapter for those who can see ;) ...

Ryus

2009-05-02, 14:50

First off welcome ChainedPhilosophy (interesting name ;))! That was your first post (your profiles says its your first).

Regarding the Ilena-Clare encounter, I believe that the yoki signature characteristic of Teresa which was embedded in Clare was the one sensed by Ilena. She may not be an excellent yoki sensor like Galatea but remember she's a former number 2 who can read yoki easily. I also believe that Clare had already surpassed Ilena's power since the off-limit awakening she had against Regardo. And what we could actually speculate was that Teresa's latent potentials had begun strongly emanating in Clare's such as acute yoki sensing (may be better than Renee but not on par with Galatea), imminent speed and combatant tactics yet still she isn't Teresa so her powers are far behind the latte

I'd like a bit of clarification on "the yoki signature characteristic of Teresa which was embedded". The wording of that to me says only that Teresa's yoki signature was embedded in Clare, which doesn't tackle the idea that there might be a few changes in the signature after it was embedded. IMO its possible (yet unconfirmed) that Teresa's signature might have changed a bit when then Yoma was infesting Clare's body, every warriors personalty effects the way the yoma power manifests in an individual. Now clearly since the Yoma in Teresa was defined, the ability of it to change to a new warrior significantly would be very limited at best. On top of that Teresa and Clare where both offensive warriors types, so changes would be very minor but I believe possible. It does make me wonder, if the speculation is true, what would happen if an offensive warrior was put into a young girl who chose the defensive path. Would it cause problems, like power fluctuations or moments of complete character change? Could that be applied to the Clarice was made from Irene speculation?

Back to the rest of the paragraph: Interesting idea that Clare is a better sensor than Renee (wonder what that says about Tabitha, Cynthia, and Yuma's sensing abilities... who seemed to be longer ranged sensors than Clare.) That might explain why "Ralieca" drew Clare to her and not Renee (if that is what happened and a theory like Teresa and Raphaela were BFFs is wrong). I was leaning with the idea that Clare was more blunt with her probing than Renee was, so Raciela was better able to cling to her than Renee. My theory is less complicated theory but less interesting, nothing wrong with either as far as I can tell.

As to the Irene being a very acute sensor but maybe not with huge sensing range and without ability to manipulate yoki idea. I do believe that is true, since I believe she is (or was) a very experienced warrior. Its like how Tabithia was able to sense Riful first but after Clare (who knew Rifuls real Yoki power and ability/technique to hide her Yoki) Miria was the first the shiver at sensing the depth of her real power. So she was a more experienced sensor but has less range and potential with her yoki sensing. I also agree Clare is above Irene's power level back then and close to it (rank 2 or 3) when hiding her Yoki, could be wrong but its what I think.

In the present scenario, I believe that Riful's aware of everything to happen. Renee's actually drawing her to Alicia and Beth and she's ready for it. Dauf's gonna follow Riful and a battle is probly to happen in the fields not in Riful's stronghold. Dauf's gonna take down the AEs and Riful - Alicia and Beth. Clare will be responsible for the awakening of Rafaciella and they will both be in the fields too to take down Riful who beats the twins. After then, Clare will turn Rafaela back to human form, leaving a dead Luciela body separated.

What do you mean by "Riful's aware of everything to happen"? and "Dauf's gonna take down the AEs and Riful - Alicia and Beth."? Do you mean Duafs going tun coat... but later you say Riful will beat the twins...

Beyond my complete confusion with those two parts it's an interesting theory, I do have a few questions. I would like to know how Renee will find Alicia/Beth now that's she's popped a pill... What do you mean by fields? Just outside? Actual fields? What of the forest outside? Wouldn't Renee know wearing white in a field will let Riful spot her quickly in a field, so I forest is the place to hide... How do you think Duaf beating the AE? His armor? His ability to fire endless ranged attacks? There not targeted at his, so he can fight them one on one?

I like the idea that Clare and "Rafaciella" (I like that better than "Raciela") will tag team on the weakened Riful but sadly I just don't agree with the idea of "Rafaciella" unmerging after the fight but still worth considering.

The mistery in the drawing forth of Clare in front of Rafaciella may be due to the acute yoki sensing of Teresa which Clare manifested that reached the abyssal-deep consciousness of Raph. Raph responded to this familar yoki signature that it created a magnet to connect their consciousness together. Thence, it is a speculation that Clare, definitely, can acquire the latent potentials of Teresa which were still alive in her blood and flesh. Raph may become an involuntary ally of Clare and a power of raph would then be entrusted to Clare. Remeber, Clare doesn't have her own prowess identity, her potentials were a product of borrowing or bequeathing by powerful Claymore who wanted her to live on.

I agree that Clare was drawn forth because of her yoki sensing and that it different from Renee's. Sadly I think its too soon to say for surly that it has to do with Teresa though. I believe it can be speculated to some degree but I'm cautious about it, mainly because of my complete desire for it to be the case. I think I guarding myself for the possibility that its not the case.

GundamZZ

2009-05-02, 15:23

ChainedPhilosophy

2009-05-02, 15:41

"Interesting idea that Clare is a better sensor than Renee (wonder what that says about Tabitha, Cynthia, and Yuma's sensing abilities... who seemed to be longer ranged sensors than Clare.) "

Well, thank you for the warm welcome. I was trying to say that Clare has also a chancy acute sensing ability, there's nothing wrong with speculating, because way back in the Slasher's Arc epsiodes Clare was able to sense Galatea's presence in a distance she wouldn't imagine to be possible. If she wasn't a range sensor then she wouldn't have troubled Galatea's sensing abilities.

"I was leaning with the idea that Clare was more blunt with her probing than Renee was, so Raciela was better able to cling to her than Renee. My theory is less complicated theory but less interesting, nothing wrong with either as far as I can tell. "

--Renee, was scared because apparently, she doesn't have the experience to counter the consequences of such odds. You're right that Clare may be more blunt, but in the first place she didn't sense Raphaela's yoki; it just came to a point where time pinpointed her to a faint yoki which is far weaker than Renee's. Her probing wasn't intentional because she didn't know that Raphaela was the one she sensed. SO my theory was when she accidentally went to the depth of Raph's consciousness, a familiarity between yoki signatures happened. Then they resonated clinging to a belief that they were like greeting each other.

"As to the Irene being a very acute sensor but maybe not with huge sensing range and without ability to manipulate yoki idea. I do believe that is true, since I believe she is (or was) a very experienced warrior. "

--I meant that first-digit ranks are good sensors, not essentilly exceptional.

"What do you mean by "Riful's aware of everything to happen"? and "Dauf's gonna take down the AEs and Riful - Alicia and Beth."? Do you mean Duafs going tun coat... but later you say Riful will beat the twins..."

--It's just a prediction. That Riful might have just been giving a misleading haps on things goin her way. I may be wrong but IMO it seems like she knew what is gonna happen. That she's gonna meet the twins way for Renee, and so on...Renee's a good sensor and I do believe that even do a soldier pops a pill, it doens't banish her sensing abilities but her yoki cannot be detected or it is at least hard to detect since it is suppressed.

Thanks for the comment.

MalakTawus

2009-05-02, 15:49

ChainedPhilosophy

2009-05-02, 16:03

MisterJB

2009-05-02, 16:19

Of course Irene's that strong. Just that during their generation, Teresa and Priscilla were far above what we call a number one. If she can easily beat down Ofelia, how much more than Miria. However, Rafaela's not at par with her since Rafela's much stronger. To recount, Irene told Raph that she would only stand a chance against the former should she had both hands. In that case, Raphaela may be a level of an unawakened Priscilla.

I disagree. Teresa and Priscilla were above number #1 level. They were probrably close to AO level.

Raphaela, on the other hand, is #1/#2 level while Irene is a number #2. Irene might be a really strong number #2 but I don't think she is on number #1 level. I mightbe wrong but there is no evidence in the manga that say she is number #1 material.

Bur Irene defeating Rigardo? Please, not even Awakening.
Clare's arm didn't touch Rigardo, she had to Awaken her limbs to even get closer to him. Just like Dauf, a former number #3, defeated Galatea so Rigardo would have defeated Irene,

MalakTawus

2009-05-02, 16:23

Of course Irene's that strong. Just that during their generation, Teresa and Priscilla were far above what we call a number one. If she can easily beat down Ofelia, how much more than Miria. However, Rafaela's not at par with her since Rafela's much stronger. To recount, Irene told Raph that she would only stand a chance against the former should she had both hands. In that case, Raphaela may be a level of an unawakened Priscilla.

......that was in the anime......in the manga we don't know if Raph would have won against Irene with both arms.....and while in the anime Irene was taken by surprise by Raph,in the manga she wasn't.
Raph isn't at the level of unawakened Priscilla at all!!!She has the same power of Luciela before awakening ,a NORMAL n.1 (and we can't know if Irene had or not that much power when she was at the top form,since she compared only with Teresa and Priscilla)
Teresa and Priscilla are on a whole other level of power.

Irene is stronger than Rigardo by far.He failed to kill Claire with his first attacks ,Irene would have killed Claire in an istant,an istant!!!and without even awakening!!!
Rigardo had even to wait Miria to slow down to hit her....Irene's sword would have destroyed Miria in an istant.....again!
Rigardo was the n.2 of a NORMAL n.1,Irene was Teresa's n.2.....even Isley,Luciela and Riful would have been n.2 with Teresa around....

Cyclone

2009-05-02, 16:28

nah. 誘う (sasou) may mean to persuade by word originally. It is used as "to attract" most of the time. Sometimes, it is used as "to seduce".

懐かしい(hazukashi) can be directly translated to nostalgic. "Familiar" does not fit the translation that well.

I agree with you that 懐かしい(natsukashii - [hazukashi = embarassing (that's slightly ironic)]) is nostalgic, but using it directly in the English phrase is often difficult, or would be misleading (i.e. in this case "nostalgic presense" would indicate the presence was the one doing the nostalgia, not that the presence was nostalgic to the observer). Likewise, the more accurate "remembered with fondess" is a little too long for most uses. The dictionary defintions also don't work most of the time, so I just stuck with what the original translator used - that particular adjective is not that important afterall.

As for 誘う (sasou), I'll happily accept that the dictionary's entires are incomplete (i.e. call out, invite, entice, incite), but every alternate definition - even the ones you provided amount to the same thing:
the natsukashii presense was what was doing the attracting.

Irene did not say she felt this presense. She said she was attracted/invited/enticed to/by it.

In light of what's happening to Clare now, the slight distinction is significant.

ChainedPhilosophy

2009-05-02, 16:43

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-05-02, 16:49

Claire above Irene?Yes,probably.
Without using yoki?No,impossible.!

Yup. When Galatea asks Clare if she can still do that move from before, Clare states that the power had dropped while the precision has increased. So Clare does less damage now than when she first fought Duff.

Cyclone

2009-05-02, 17:05

IMO even if raciella led clare to her it must be because clare is not a claymore with a yoma inside but a former super strong number 1 warrior. This is a passive involvement of theresa.
Why did raciella chose clare and not rene? Only because clare is stronger? Don't think so.
That teresa took over and guided her is far more improbable but it is possible.
A third option is that teresa and raffaella knew each other quite well so raciella somehow recognized her.

There are several things to consider here.

The fact that Raphaela and Teresa knew each other, I now take as a given. Yagi did not put the Raphaela and Teresa Scene in the flashback just to make Teresa fans happy, afterall. There was a reason and this was it.
Raphaela was alive and well all of Teresa's adult life. It's likely that it wasn't their only meeting. In fact, Raphaela is the ideal candidate to give Teresa her well founded suspicions of the Organization. With Rubel's "Teresa is dead" comment, it's pretty much given they knew each other well.

So this much at least, is not a mystery to me.

The issue for me is who is controlling Clare - Teresa or Raphaela.
There are 2 reasons I doubt it's Raphaela:
1) Clare wanted to meet Raphaela since talking to Rubel. That should be well outside of sensing range for either of them. This indicates that the desire came from within Clare (i.e. Teresa). Clare also got a headache when doing to see Raciella - all of Galatea-sama's or the Pieta AB's manipulations seem to be without that side effect. This also indicates an source inside Clare.
and
2) I don't think Raciella is THAT powerful to be able to manipulate Clare from inside a castle and Clare being unable to fight it at that distance. If Clare was being herself, she would try to fight it, and I have enough respect for Clare to think she could do a good job fighting the manipulation. If the source is Teresa, though, she can't really fight that.

All in all though, I'm starting to believe that this was Rubel's plan all along in having Clare go after Raphaela. Afterall, Rubel knew of the Teresa-Raphaela relationship. I think whatever will happen, Rubel had all of this planned out.

MalakTawus

2009-05-02, 17:07

"Rigardo was the n.2 of a NORMAL n.1,Irene was Teresa's n.2.....even Isley,Luciela and Riful would have been n.2 with Teresa around..."

--but then again, Rigardo was a number 2 of a male generation who were much stronger than females. In case Irene awakened and Rigardo awakened, I'll bet on Rigardo. Irene may have been one of the wisest Claymores known but she's not definitely a number 1 material and she wouldn't win a 1-1 fight with Rigardo nor Rafaela. That's for sure.

No,maybe (probably) Raph was stronger than Irene,but Rigardo was nothing special to be a n.2 and the fight against Miria and Claire (before semi-awakening) make this quite clear.
And if we follow your logic Isley should have been much stronger than Luciela,but their powers were almost identical....and Riful was confident to be able to fight Isley even if she is a girl......and Teresa is A LOT STRONGER than Isley and she is a girl.....and Priscilla is A LOT STRONGER than Isley and guess what?She is a girl too!!!

Maybe the average of the male gen. was stronger but if we talk about top level warriors genre means nothing.
The only fact is that Irene was the only n.2 that COULD have been a lot stronger than all the other n.2s in history,because she had Teresa as n.1, a warrior way above all the other n.1s in history (and yes,male generation too,since it's a fact that Isley was a lot weaker than Teresa).
Rigardo was a normal n.2 of a normal n.1

@Gangsta:
yup,even if to tell the truth Claire is using the wc now,and not the more powerful qs(well, she can't use it without yoki...)

Torri_fay_torren@hot

2009-05-02, 17:10

Yup. When Galatea asks Clare if she can still do that move from before, Clare states that the power had dropped while the precision has increased. So Clare does less damage now than when she first fought Duff.

I agree but I don't think it's that much of a difference as everyone thinks. It's intersting to note that Clare blocked duffs attack withought her eyes changing color.

Cyclone

2009-05-02, 17:11

clarakiss~

2009-05-02, 17:21

It's intersting to note that Clare blocked duffs attack withought her eyes changing color.

it's just one of those normal attacks dauf does. if it weren't, dauf would've said 'how you do that?!' to clare. but he didn't. any claymore that is at a level of top 10 could deflect attacks like that.

@ cyclone - i agree. rafaela makes a solid n.2 warrior, just like rigaldo being a solid n.2 behind isley.

MisterJB

2009-05-02, 17:23

No,maybe (probably) Raph was stronger than Irene,but Rigardo was nothing special to be a n.2 and the fight against Miria and Claire (before semi-awakening) make this quite clear.
And if we follow your logic Isley should have been much stronger than Luciela,but their powers were almost identical....and Riful was confident to be able to fight Isley even if she is a girl......and Teresa is A LOT STRONGER than Isley and she is a girl.....and Priscilla is A LOT STRONGER than Isley and guess what?She is a girl too!!!

Maybe the average of the male gen. was stronger but if we talk about top level warriors genre means nothing.
The only fact is that Irene was the only n.2 that COULD have been a lot stronger than all the other n.2s in history,because she had Teresa as n.1, a warrior way above all the other n.1s in history (and yes,male generation too,since it's a fact that Isley was a lot weaker than Teresa).
Rigardo was a normal n.2 of a normal n.1.

Rigardo's fight against Clare and Miria can't tell us anything. He wasn't paying attention to Clare until she Awakened and he was playing around with Miria. He only started figthing seriously after Clare Awakened and if he hadn't lost a arm through a surprise attack, that Clare wouldn't have beaten him.

Male ABs are generally stronger than female ABs. Isley was slightly stronger than the other AOs. Since when was Riful confident to fight him? She only attacked when he was exhaust.

Wait, Are you talking about AO Isley or Claymore Isley. Because, if are talking about C Isley, I can agree that Teresa was stronger than him. But AO, we haven't seen any evidence that C Teresa was stronger than AO Isley.
AO Teresa would have been much stronger than AO Isley, that's true.
And of course, there are rare exceptions when a female warrior is stronger than a male warrior with the same number. So far, the only known cases are Teresa and Priscilla.

It's true that Irene was number 2 to Teresa but we have no indication that she deserved the number 1

Cyclone has a good post on that. So, for Rigardo vs Irene, I'm saying that they are more or less on the same level, with Rigardo being slightly stronger. Just like Isley and Luciela.
AB Irene = AB Agatha

MalakTawus

2009-05-02, 17:27

Raph is not a solid n.2,Raph is n.1-material

we don't know anything about AB Irene.
I don't think we'll ever see her so everyone can have their opinion,i think
AO>AB Irene>>>>AB Rigardo>=AB Agatha
I don't understand why you think Rigardo is stronger than Irene.
Imo Irene is only a little weaker than Raph (normal n.1 material),while Rigardo is A LOT weaker than Isley (normal n.1 material).
And it's stupid to say that Isley was stronger than Luciela because he is a man.Their powers were almost identical,Isley was a bit stronger (but only a little bit!) not because he is male but simply because he is a bit stronger as an individual (genre doesn't matter).
Riful has the same power as Isley and to find out who is stronger (only a bit stronger) they should have fought......so we'll never know,but in the manga it's never said that Isley is stronger than Riful,and since at the beginning Riful wanted to stop Isley without any alliance, she obviously thinks that she isn't inferior to him.

clarakiss~

2009-05-02, 17:47

if isley were a female claymore, i see him being 'irene' but he would be twice as strong. the difference between isley and teresa as claymore is, teresa is just a completely strong solid n. 1. isley and rigaldo always had to battle it out during their days for that n.1 spot... however isley was always on top.

the one thing, i think the claymore isley had over claymore teresa as a n. 1, he had a more refined swordmanship then her. you could see he took pride in his sword skills and you didn't really see that in teresa. she was all about sheer power as a claymore. if i were to chose between the two, i'd pick isley in sword training. raki's one lucky guy. ^^;

ChainedPhilosophy

2009-05-02, 17:55

Raph's not a solid number 1 material; She maybe close to it but she maybe the level of Rosemary who's not a solid number 1 Claymore. Then, Rosemary's stronger than Irene for if not then why'd the org choose her over Irene.

MalakTawus

2009-05-02, 18:12

Rosemary could have been a solid n.1!!!!
We can't be sure if she was or wasn't solid n.1-material.
She fought against Teresa (she even used a little bit of yoki),but Teresa isn't a normal n.1 material,her powers (like Priscilla) are on a whole different scale!
The org. knew that Teresa was the best,and she was even hiding her real powers.
Conclusion:Ros. lost against Teresa+yoki just like all the other "solid n.1s" would have lost.
Of course this opinion works only if you think (like me) that Teresa+yoki is stronger than AOs.The manga doesn't tell,so it's just a matter of different opinions.

clarakiss~

2009-05-02, 18:43

how would you foumers rank the former and current number ones? in my honest opinion... it'd be like

1. teresa
2. isley
3. riful
4. alicia
5. lucy

*priscilla would've been in between teresa and isley if she remained a claymore longer.

as for rafaela - if there's a n.1 rank claymore ahead of her, she wouldn't be a n. 1. she's just like 'irene or rigaldo'.

SagaraSouske

2009-05-02, 19:36

how would you foumers rank the former and current number ones? in my honest opinion... it'd be like

1. teresa
2. isley
3. riful
4. beth
5. lucy

*priscilla would've been in between teresa and isley if she remained a claymore longer.

as for rafaela - if there's a n.1 rank claymore ahead of her, she wouldn't be a n. 1. she's just like 'irene or rigaldo'.

You kinda have to put Alica above everyone else if you only comparing their power when they are claymore, since Alica can awaken and equal AO.

Since we don't know the details of awakening for Isley and Ritful, it is hard to judge how strong they are as warriors. Each claymore's awakening is different. Isley may be weaker then Lucilla as a warrior but his awakening made him equally strong as AO.

But as AOs, the difference in power between Isley and Lucilla is so small that you could rank them the same. Ritful is likely not far off either.

Raphaela is equal in power to Lucilla. The only reason why she was No.2 is the same reason why Beth was No.2: she was the anchor. It would take someone like Teresa or Priscilla to be ahead of her.

FragrantFlora

2009-05-02, 19:51

There are enough indications that theresa is perhaps somehow alive in clare and still has some kind of conciseness. The whole story is full of them.
There is no proof but indications are there. Look at cyclones post.
IMO even if raciella led clare to her it must be because clare is not a claymore with a yoma inside but a former super strong number 1 warrior. This is a passive involvement of theresa.
Why did raciella chose clare and not rene? Only because clare is stronger? Don't think so.
That teresa took over and guided her is far more improbable but it is possible.
A third option is that teresa and raffaella knew each other quite well so raciella somehow recognized her.

And there is something i thought about a lot. How in hell raciella could find clare. IMO she must have lured her in after yuma lost her leg or even before. Clare is still a ghost.
This must be some kind of soul link or theresa is more actively involved than we think.

Yes you are right about the point that clare always put her life on the line for comrades even if she doesn't know them. She is a very altruistic person.
What i wanted to say was that raciella(?) probably took completely over and attacked(?) clare's mind directly. It was not that clare saw her legs and body move in the wrong direction, she was completely knocked out and after regaining consciseness she found herself directly before raciella and had no clue how she got there. So it seemed to me. It is probably just a bagatelle and i used your post to got the attention about this. Or better said, to guide the attention of other users to that point which i find very interesting. How did raciella managed to do this? This is more than yoki manipulation. This must be some kind of soullink. Wasn't yoki supression important to do soullink? Perhaps riful searched for the wrong thing? Perhaps a sensor with good supression abilitys would be needed to separate the sister from each other? Clare is a ghost so she should be good by now at supression too. Hm... but if i'm right about this theresa is perhaps still not involved :(
I want teresa back! :( :(

There were many interesting things above all at the end of the chapter for those who can see ;) ...

Ok...¨for those who can see¨, well I dunno if you meant to insult me of if you just used the wrong words but Iĺl leave it at that.

Ok, this is my opinion...Teresa is dead. Sorry to be a bit blunt. I love Teresa but I do accept the truth that she is dead. Somehow some of you guys are forgetting that Clare is the main character here, not Teresa. If Teresa is alive inside Clare(literally), then why wouldn´t she not want to contact Clare or speak with her. Itś clearly visions of Teresa that Clare is seeing. Thatś how inspiration works, you think of the person.

I wonder why there are claims to Teresa and Rafaela ever being friends. Teresa was running away and apprehended by Rafaela. Well someone like Teresa took that nicely.

And yoki suppression isn´t necessary for soul link. Alicia and Beth don´t need yoki suppression and I don´t think they even have that ability. MIria was able to sense their large yoki from afar. Hiding oneś yoki in order to initiate a surprise attack especially on someone as strong as Riful is clearly wiser.

necrosis6

2009-05-02, 22:31

Sordes Pilosus

2009-05-02, 22:32

Its been a while since i last posted, but i feel with alot of quite frankly horrible and to some degree stupid theories have spawned there is a need to put a few things straight with simple and well argumented points and not just wishfull thinking.

First a recent issue:
Irene stronger then Rigaldo ? Lol, how stupid aint that ? Irene's strong point was a supreme Quick Sword. sure she is at a level she can hurt rigaldo to some degree but with Irene not being a Sensing Spesialst, keeping up with Riagldo's speed even when he wasent serious would be out of her ability to handle alone. Just look at her vs Theresa, she could do nothing while Theresa is a monster she can not defeat the likes of true Rank 1/2 Material without atlest releasing enough Youki for her eye colours to change. And Irene in the situation where Theresa is not releasing cant do anything even with the support of 3 other Single Digits. And that fight while one of the best in Claymore illustrates well the situation. Irene is simply to slow to have a chance against Rigaldo, even with her Quick Sword she would not be able to avoid being even at best "slowly grinded down". Irene was a very strong nr 2, so was Rigaldo, differance is Rigaldo awakened and became even stronger. Both as Claymore's however i also would placed my bet on Irene.

Second Notion, that Rosmary was a "AO" false, completly and utterly false. This goes back to a proven fact in Claymore "Willingly Awakened and Unwillingly Prodced a clear differance in strenght of Youki" Rosemary where a classic example of a "unwilling" basicly one of surrendering to the awakening process, I went quite deep into the issue in a chapter post quite a while ago, perhaps ill dig it up eventualy again. But simply put Rosemary was an awakened nr 1, like Rigaldo was an awakened nr 2. But she was never an Abyssal One or worthy of the title.

Now im sure someone will come at this, Id rather avoid starting an novel on the issue but ill probably be forced to later. But for now back to the chapter at hand.

Some of you have noticed the key element in this chapter at the end. The fact that Clare went to Racellia under the influense of either Racellia or Theresa inside of her. This is a very important point and the most important in the entire chapter and is a a huge door either way for a Growth in Clare's abilities. If its Theresa, we will be seing a increase in Clare's natural Youki to a large extent and likly a increase in Clare's already fine ability to read youki down to smaler movments and hense predict what will happend. If its Racellia then we have the potensial issue of Soul Linking. Both approaches are 2 very interesting options and posibilities for Clare. And it seams probable that Yagi will choose 1 of those options for Clare's further growth, we are starting to reach the endgame of the "Predicted Volumes of 25" while it might go on longer be if a single, few or many volumes depends on Yagi but we know atlest 25 and intil we hear something else its what we will need to use as the estimate, perhaps not final it could very well end up 27. But the key element here is that Clare needs a power growth that can allow her to fight on the larger scale against AO level oponents and here infront of us there are 2 Pathways "That of the Queen of Blades" or "That of Faint Smile" which will be Clare's path that will be interesting to see.

SagaraSouske

2009-05-02, 23:44

It seems like one of the assumptions people are making is that if 2 people of equal strength awaken, they will both be about the same strength after awakening. To give an example of how this might not be the case, lets look at Isley and Rigaldo. After awakening, Rigaldo stands absolutely no chance against Isley, to the point where Rigaldo had given up trying to take Isley's head. However, before awakening, Rigaldo was always fighting Isley thinking that he was stronger than Isley. Obviously the difference between them as Claymores was nothing even close to the difference between them as awakened beings. I do admit that it may be possible that awakening doesn't change relative power levels, but we don't really have enough information to be sure. I'm just of the impression that Isley, Riful and Lucy were not the only number 1s that awakened, but that they were just the lucky ones who happened to get a huge boost in power. They can't have been the only number ones to have awakened since the goal of the org is controllable awakened beings so awakening is part of a claymore's "role".

The reason why a lot of people think that way is that they follow the linear progression for power increase for awakening. Since claymore awaken by passing the 80% threshold, to them the awakened form is merely reaching 100% power and youki level. Although most do agree the effect achieved by that last 20% is exponential, since you have to explain somehow the huge boost in power from awakening.

I always thought awakening is rather a metamorphosis where the awakened form is a entirely a new being that is totally different from claymore, different youki pool, different stats, etc. Although the memory is left intact and skill learned as a claymore is employed by the awakened being, the body itself is no longer the same as that of a claymore's. Each and every claymore awakens differently and some may not gain as much increased power in the new form then others. This will solve the inconsistencies between different power displayed by various ABs. Ophelia for example - is likely one that didn't gain much power through awakening, or the AB that awakened by Ritful's torture, while Priscilla prob gained the most power through awakening. Clare is prob similar to Priscilla in that respect that she gains a huge power boost through awakening - as displayed by how she defeated Rigardo.

Key Board

2009-05-02, 23:52

From what I have seen so far, ABs are vastly more powerful than Claymores

but they're also larger and heavier and thus vulnerable against faster Claymores

in addition to that, a Claymore sword is like a beam saber from Gundam. It's always reliable no matter how much more advanced the enemy machine is

revan5

2009-05-02, 23:54

Its been a while since i last posted, but i feel with alot of quite frankly horrible and to some degree stupid theories have spawned there is a need to put a few things straight with simple and well argumented points and not just wishfull thinking.

First a recent issue:
Irene stronger then Rigaldo ? Lol, how stupid aint that ? Irene's strong point was a supreme Quick Sword.

You know what you reminded me of? I couldn't figure for the life of me why Raphaela/Luciella's youki would be resonating with that of Claire's. Then I read your Irene comment and it struck me. Of course, how could I forget! Claire doesn't have just the blood of one claymore coursing through her veins, but two! Thus while Claire only has a single arm given to her by Irene, much of the blood and genetic material in it must have melded with Teresa's blood coursing through Claire's veins.

Claire is a partially awakened being with the genetic/organic material of two claymores running through her (and may now be 3/8th youma instead of a 1/4th), and Raphaela/Luciella is much the same, though one of the beings is awakened. The similarities between the two unusual youkis thus cause them to resonate with one another. Not only that, but Claire's youki is hidden, like Raphaela's, and Raphaela no doubt knew what Teresa's youki felt like.

Now im sure someone will come at this, Id rather avoid starting an novel on the issue but ill probably be forced to later. But for now back to the chapter at hand.

Some of you have noticed the key element in this chapter at the end. The fact that Clare went to Racellia under the influense of either Racellia or Theresa inside of her. This is a very important point and the most important in the entire chapter and is a a huge door either way for a Growth in Clare's abilities. If its Theresa, we will be seing a increase in Clare's natural Youki to a large extent and likly a increase in Clare's already fine ability to read youki down to smaler movments and hense predict what will happend. If its Racellia then we have the potensial issue of Soul Linking. Both approaches are 2 very interesting options and posibilities for Clare. And it seams probable that Yagi will choose 1 of those options for Clare's further growth, we are starting to reach the endgame of the "Predicted Volumes of 25" while it might go on longer be if a single, few or many volumes depends on Yagi but we know atlest 25 and intil we hear something else its what we will need to use as the estimate, perhaps not final it could very well end up 27. But the key element here is that Clare needs a power growth that can allow her to fight on the larger scale against AO level oponents and here infront of us there are 2 Pathways "That of the Queen of Blades" or "That of Faint Smile" which will be Clare's path that will be interesting to see.

What interests me the most, besides the development path for Claire (Queen of the Blades is my preferred path, but the other remains intriguing), is what the new being "Raciella"will look like. It could look like Raphaela, Luciella or a mix of both. Then something weird occurred to me. What if Claire's inner desire to see Teresa again affects the new merged being as it is awakening (both from sleep and in the Claymore sense)? She is after all, in some sense, playing the new being's mother in a bizarre way.

What if that inner desire causes the new merged being to have the personality of Raphaela...with the hair/looks of Teresa? :eyespin::twitch::heh: It seems bizarre, off-kilter, and dare I say it...vaguely possible?!? Then what if that super-powerful person were to meet Priscilla in Claire's company? :D

-Just had another thought. What if the statue of the twin goddesses, Teresa & Claire, is a premonition of what is about to happen? I don't mean Teresa's coming back, but what if Claire were to name the new being instead of it naming itself? What sort of name would anyone expect Claire to name a new partially awakened Claymore? Well, she wouldn't reuse her comrades' names, as that would be too confusing. My guess is that she would name the new being "Teresa". Thus the twin goddesses come to be.

Gangsta Spanksta

2009-05-02, 23:56

iLney

2009-05-02, 23:58

Even if Raphaela was equal to Luciella (the most she can be, otherwise Luciella would be #2, not Raphaela)

Hmm? Luciella was the elder sister and Yagi is a Japanese. That explains all.

Irene was probably a little bit weaker than her (i.e. a very solid #2).

A bit? When an assassin has 100% rate of success, I don't think she is just "a bit" stronger than her victim.

One more indication of Raphaela's power that you seem to ignore (it was in a boring chapter anyway- t3h Yuma punch one :D): the Org didn't know about Rachiella. They feared Raphaela joining with Riful. If Raphaela was just, say, as strong as Rigaldo, they wouldn't have given a rat imo.

SagaraSouske

2009-05-03, 00:11

Well I don't really care one way or the other if Rigaldo or Irene would be the stronger awakened being. But to say that Irene wouldn't be able to keep up with his speed, using his Awakened Form and her Claymore form as examples, is a flawed argument that relies on the assumption that Rigaldo was nearly that fast as a Claymore. We don't know by what order of magnitude a claymore's power level rises. Also, I agree that each awakening is different in how strong an AB will be. It goes back to the awakening by purpose vs. accident, and I speculate that it has to do a lot with the imagination, though process, of the Claymore while they are awakening. Jean turned into an awesome looking butterfly, who would've thought that by looking at her or knowing her? Here we are assuming that Irene would become an awakened being that specializes in quick sword it seems.

Also the Rosemary thing is simply. She's wasn't an AO for the same reason Priscilla wasn't an AO, but if she was never demoted by the orgs definition she would've been an AO.

I think Sordes Pilosus is simply trying to say that Irene as a claymore can't be stronger then AB Rigardo. If you read the last part of his post, he said that if both were claymore, he would prob bet on Irene.

As for Rosemary, when people say she is not AO, they mean that she is not on the same level as AO, not that she wasn't labeled as AO. AO does not equal = awakened No.1, only that the 3 AOs are former No.1s. There can be awakened No.1 that are not at AO level, or even not strong enough to beat Rigardo/Dauf. Each awakening is different. And each generation's No.1 are of various strength. I don't believe Rosemary is even close to AO level. Since this is an old argument, I will just leave it at that.

revan5

2009-05-03, 00:53

I've been thinking about this twin goddesses idea for a bit. Well, think about it, Claire used to be one of a kind. She was, until Raphaela merged partly with Luciella, the only Claymore with the blood of two Claymores running through her veins. Now they're two of a kind. What else is two of a kind in the Claymore-verse? Well, a lot. Deneve is always paired with Helen in a way. Miata is paired with Clarice. Tabitha is paired with Miria (and judging from the image thread, not always to her benefit). Claire was paired with Teresa.

Then there's the nature of Yagi's writing. He is obsessed with the idea of twins. Raphaela & Luciella were twin sisters (if non-identical). Alicia/Beth are identical twin sisters. This new being, should it emerge only partially awakened due to Claire's influence, would literally be the only other person exactly like her. Partly awakened, and the product of not one but two Claymores (one now a dead awakened being). They might be like twins of a kind. Twins, how very Yagi-like of Yagi to put that into the story. Wait a minute! What guarantees do we have that this new being will keep one of the twin sisters' names? None! What if she requested a new name, and Claire were to give her one? The only name that comes to mind is that of "Teresa".

This seems amazing enough, but wait, like they say in the commercial, there's more! Teresa & Claire, as Teresa herself explains, are the names of two incredibly beautiful and pure twin goddesses. Yagi, you sly dog. He's been setting up the story of a new Teresa & Claire possibly, or its equivalent. Even if the new being doesn't come to be known as Teresa, these two will in a sense be like "twin goddesses". Think about it, none of the ghosts, even the partially awakened, are exactly like Claire. But a merged "Raciella" (or, can we hope, "Teresa"?) would be like her twin sister.

They're both cold on the outside, but inside they have an incredible drive & personal warmth. It's just like Rubel suggested; they're much the same creature in personality, youki and even youki-suppression wise. What if they were to be like twin goddesses leading the revolutionary "ghosts" to victory against the Organization?

Does anyone else here think there is a distinct possibility that Yagi is fulfilling the Claymore-verse legend of the twin goddesses of good, Teresa & Claire?

Ryus

2009-05-03, 01:12

Claire above Irene?Yes,probably.
Without using yoki?No,impossible.
Irene even as a n.2 was very strong,probably she could have been a n.1-matter or very close to it,the only problem was that at that time Teresa was there,and we know that she was way above normal n.1 level (come on!she destroyed an abyssal like it was nothing!!!).
Afterall, all the other n.1s would have been n.2 if they lived during Teresa's time.
If the ghosts would fight against Irene like they fought against Agatha i can see only a conclusion: a lot of dead ghosts.
....and if she awakens......very dangerous........
even awakened Rigardo was weaker than "normal Irene" imo, infact at that time Claire's sword only had half the speed and power compared to Irene's sword, so in a fight Irene would have killed Claire in an istant without giving her the chance to semi-awaken.....and an awakened Irene.....would have been epic,epic!
I know it's almost impossible, but i hope she is still alive.....i hope maybe we'll have a clear answer to Irene's destiny directly from Raciella's lips!!!

I'm sorry MalakTawus I disagree with all of that. Except getting a clear answer about Irene's fate form Raciella's lips.

:eyebrow:Irene beat Rigardo! :twitch: Look at it this way Clare's Quicksword wielding arm that was moving at 1/2 of Irene's speed only landed 2 ungaurded hits on Rigardo (excluding his claws) until she final killed him. One where he lost his arm the second was part of his foot. Both of those where after her legs awakened. (She also slashed his face with her awakened left hand before the final slice and dice.) Doubling the speed and power only means she'd barely keep up with him, at best, and that assumes they stay still and he doesn't flank her (anyone know how fast Irene can run?). So a Claymore rated by another as being a single digit, who gained the arm of a number 2 at 1/2 its speed and power, who was able to go beyond her limits and revert, and had 3 other allies like her (except for the arm) and they all were about to die by Rigardo's hands until Clare awakened her limbs and beat him. For those reasons I don't see Irene beating Rigardo. IMO she would last about as long as Galatea lasted against Dauf, when Clare left to find Jean and that assumes Rigardo wasn't trying to kill Irene just like Dauf was under orders not to kill Galatea. Also Rigardo's mental prowess was about on par with Irenes, so she has no edge there like Galatea did over Dauf.

:uhoh:Irene kills all the ghosts :frustrated: Even if I'm assuming the ghosts don't release yoki and without Galatea, Mitia, and Clarice's help they still win. Clare could easily tie up Irene's Quicksword/Flashsword with her windcutter that's at least as fast as her quicksword 7 years ago without releasing any yoki (if she did, she'd kill Irene by herself), lets say Deneve helps Clare tie up Irene's quicksword by a power smack that knocks the quick moving sword off balance or better yet catches it with her two swords (plus she can heal almost any wound Irene lands on her) thus negating Irene's only attack style and her only weapon. Then throw in Miria and Helen look for openings to exploit. With Yuma, Tabitha, and Cynthia covering the others (plus Cynthia healing any cut off limbs) and they all (plus Clare) have the potential to manipulate Irene's energy. Sorry but I see Irene as toast, well more like sliced bread. I believe Irene could handle Noel and Sophia easily, but that's about it. Irene is only one person, there's no way she could beat 7 single digits in combat especially if at least 4 of them are partially awakened and clearly number 5 quality or greater material, on top of that 2 of them far greater then the other two. However if this fight was to happen something tells me Yuma would die or at least lose a body part, or three.

As to Rosemary she appeared to be to be just an extra strong AB without any special ability (something the 4 AO's all had plus Priscilla; Isley weapon changing arms plus fast and armored and homing arrows, Luciela tons of mouths that could appear anywhere on her body and 2 massive whip like tails, Riful is a pimped out T-1000 who can't shapeshift into other forms but has endless blades with a farther range and shes armored, Alicia has scythes for arms and super speed plus is small and compact for extra agility, Priscilla has wings and an endless ability to regenerate plus her whine attack :p (even the best drop their guard to it, Isley and Teresa).) While Rosemary had no major ability that we saw since all she did was punch Teresa. (Plus Rosemary had a clearly visible human weak spot.) I'd say Rosemary was more on par with Agatha, note I'm not saying she not stronger than Agatha just more on par with her then any AO. (Time to place bets, who'd win in a fight Rosemary or Agatha. And the house special bet of the day, Will Rosemary dominate Agatha like a true number 1 would? Tomorrow Rosemary vs Rigardo... However stay tuned for a real special next week first off its Rosemary vs the Ghosts, next Rosemary vs Luciela, followed by Rosemary vs Alicia, Then Rosemary vs Riful, and Next Rosemary vs Isley, then Rosemary vs Priscilla, and topping it off a grudge match Rosemary with 7 years of training (lol) vs a Reincarnated Teresa (non awakened, but at 79.995%). :heh:).

:confused:How can you say Irene is above the average for a number two when the only other twos we've meet (non awakened) where Raphaela and Beth (and Priscilla but we shouldn't include that outlier for obvious reasons)? As we all know Raphaela and Beth are number 1 material and that has been confirmed in the manga. So we have no real number 2 (non awakened) to compare Irene too, as to awakened number 2's it's Rigardo and Agatha (who would make Irene very dead).

Cyclone

2009-05-03, 01:34

Ryus

2009-05-03, 01:47

There are several things to consider here.

The fact that Raphaela and Teresa knew each other, I now take as a given. Yagi did not put the Raphaela and Teresa Scene in the flashback just to make Teresa fans happy, afterall. There was a reason and this was it.
Raphaela was alive and well all of Teresa's adult life. It's likely that it wasn't their only meeting. In fact, Raphaela is the ideal candidate to give Teresa her well founded suspicions of the Organization. With Rubel's "Teresa is dead" comment, it's pretty much given they knew each other well.

So this much at least, is not a mystery to me.

The issue for me is who is controlling Clare - Teresa or Raphaela.
There are 2 reasons I doubt it's Raphaela:
1) Clare wanted to meet Raphaela since talking to Rubel. That should be well outside of sensing range for either of them. This indicates that the desire came from within Clare (i.e. Teresa). Clare also got a headache when doing to see Raciella - all of Galatea-sama's or the Pieta AB's manipulations seem to be without that side effect. This also indicates an source inside Clare.
and
2) I don't think Raciella is THAT powerful to be able to manipulate Clare from inside a castle and Clare being unable to fight it at that distance. If Clare was being herself, she would try to fight it, and I have enough respect for Clare to think she could do a good job fighting the manipulation. If the source is Teresa, though, she can't really fight that.

All in all though, I'm starting to believe that this was Rubel's plan all along in having Clare go after Raphaela. Afterall, Rubel knew of the Teresa-Raphaela relationship. I think whatever will happen, Rubel had all of this planned out.

I've been thinking about this and I conceded the point that there is a good chance that Teresa and Raphaela where BFFs (master & apprentice).

I've been thinking that Rubel's "Teresa is dead" comment is more then just a clue that they knew each other well. I believe Rubel used Teresa's known locations of "wondering in the woods" to find Raphaela's Cave. That to me implied Teresa visited Raphaela instead of the town after there first encounter. I'm willing to bet Raphaela is where Teresa's mistrust of the organization came from.

However I'm still debating if Teresa is alive in Clare because I'm guarding myself against massive disappointment if it's not the case. Please be God of Rabona, make it be so! We need our merged twin goddess savior! :p

Ryus

2009-05-03, 01:55

Claire above Irene?Yes,probably.
Without using yoki?No,impossible.

Yup. When Galatea asks Clare if she can still do that move from before, Clare states that the power had dropped while the precision has increased. So Clare does less damage now than when she first fought Duff.

I agree but I don't think it's that much of a difference as everyone thinks. It's intersting to note that Clare blocked duffs attack withought her eyes changing color.

@GanstaSpansta and MalakTawus Sorry but IMHO that's not the case. Your right about the translation, GanstaSpansta, but we all know Clare was using Windcutter and not Quicksword she was ignoring all the trivial details and what ifs and just giving her a quick summery that she could do it less powerful but more accurate without informing Agatha to what she was about to do.

Torri_fay_torren@hot is right. Clare used the Quick sword past her limit the last time Galatea meet her but this time she used a weaker but more accurate attack to kill a #2 in a moment without any power increase. There was no mention of any speed loss so we can assume it has risen with her new strength. So what that she can't penetrate Daufs armor, she using less of her power and a weaker technique. The she's weak since can't hurt Dauf argument is moot against a nonarmored Irene anyway, in that its speed and accuracy (power isn't that important as long as its close).
That quote doesn't tell us how much her running speed, strength, yoki sensing, swordsmanship, and endurance have increased. Which they logically have.
Also don't forget Windcutter relies on arm strength (which she's precticed with everyday for seven years, so if she ever was to use Quicksword again it would be that much stronger. On top of her new strength and released Yoki.

Cyclone

2009-05-03, 02:01

Ok...¨for those who can see¨, well I dunno if you meant to insult me of if you just used the wrong words but Iĺl leave it at that.

Ok, this is my opinion...Teresa is dead. Sorry to be a bit blunt. I love Teresa but I do accept the truth that she is dead. Somehow some of you guys are forgetting that Clare is the main character here, not Teresa. If Teresa is alive inside Clare(literally), then why wouldn´t she not want to contact Clare or speak with her. Itś clearly visions of Teresa that Clare is seeing. Thatś how inspiration works, you think of the person.

I wonder why there are claims to Teresa and Rafaela ever being friends. Teresa was running away and apprehended by Rafaela. Well someone like Teresa took that nicely.

And yoki suppression isn´t necessary for soul link. Alicia and Beth don´t need yoki suppression and I don´t think they even have that ability. MIria was able to sense their large yoki from afar. Hiding oneś yoki in order to initiate a surprise attack especially on someone as strong as Riful is clearly wiser.

Wrong on all counts, I'm afraid. I'll tackle them in reverse order.

1) Beth and Raphaela, both need to supress their youki during a soul link. That's just how it works. It's also why Raphaela never used youki after the Luciella incident.

2) If Raphaela and Teresa were not friends, how do you explain this very unusual reaction of Clare's? Renee for example has a larger youki signature than Clare, but she wasn't reached out to (and she didn't react out to Raciella either until forced to). Riful is stronger than either of them - no reaction there either. Only Clare reacts the way she did. Cynthia and Yuma are unaffected too.

Also consider why the flashback scene with chibi-Teresa was in the manga at all. It's purpose is clear when you consider the set up for a potential Teresa-Raphaela life long friendship. With Teresa's sensing abilities and her tendancy to wander, it's not inconcievable the two could meet again at anytime.

Teresa had suspicions about the Org. Where did she get them? Raphaela is the ideal source - been around for forever, and is now free lancing and had more time to explore and dig for truth than anyone else in the story. Teresa knowing Raphaela makes more sense at this point, then assuming there was only one chance meeting about 30 years prior.

3) Yes, Teresa was killed. No one is arguing that. Some of Teresa lives on in Clare though - that was the whole point of using Teresa as a source material. When you throw in things like dream in the Slashers arc, and the twin goddess myth, you realize that Teresa's role in the story is not quite done yet. That's not to say she is concisous and acts like D's hand in Vampire Hunter D or anything like that, but somewhere deep inside Clare sleeps Teresa's conciousness, memories and power. To dismiss this fact is to dismiss everything that makes Clare special.

Ryus

2009-05-03, 02:12

it's just one of those normal attacks dauf does. if it weren't, dauf would've said 'how you do that?!' to clare. but he didn't. any claymore that is at a level of top 10 could deflect attacks like that.

Sorry but I think that's wrong. Miria called Clare a single digit in The Slashers and by Witches Maw she had gained Irene's arm making her a stronger single digit.

So think of its significance again, That was his larger poll. Clare had to go past her limit last time to deflect it. This time she could even aim it without effort or power increase and it didn't seem to lose any force after the deflection. Implying she really swatted it. Then after that Riful still couldn't detect her 50 feet away, we know for a fact she didn't release any yoki to do that feat.

So logically if a single digit had to go past there limit to deflect that but now she swatting away his attacks without effort. Than logically she has had a massive power increase approaching a 100 fold times stronger then she was 7 years ago during Witches Maw. Here is my "math" she did a feat that required at least 80% of her Yoki before but now requires 0% Yoki and with a weaker sword style.

Ryus

2009-05-03, 02:21

clarakiss~

2009-05-03, 02:31

Sorry but I think that's wrong. Miria called Clare a single digit in The Slashers and by Witches Maw she had gained Irene's arm making her a stronger single digit.

So think of its significance again, That was his larger poll. Clare had to go past her limit last time to deflect it. This time she could even aim it without effort or power increase and it didn't seem to lose any force after the deflection. Implying she really swatted it. Then after that Riful still couldn't detect her 50 feet away, we know for a fact she didn't release any yoki to do that feat.

So logically if a single digit had to go past there limit to deflect that but now she swatting away his attacks without effort. Than logically she has had a massive power increase approaching a 100 fold times stronger then she was 7 years ago during Witches Maw. Here is my "math" she did a feat that required at least 80% of her Yoki before but now requires 0% Yoki and with a weaker sword style.

all i'm saying is, from a human's standard, it's similar to raki deflecting a yoma's attack, just like he demonstrated when returned to his village. clare deflected daufs attack and raki deflected a yoma's attack. it isn't something to get so awe about. and now, here comes the 'you can't compare the two!' response. :uhoh:

shippU

2009-05-03, 02:39

Ara, a discussion on Irene and I missed it?:sad: And we've practically resurrected Teresa as well! Got to love this thread:)

The debate on who'd be the stronger of the 2 - Irene or Rigardo - either as Claymores or AO is intriguing but I'll force myself to stay away. Anyway, it’s obvious Irene would have him for breakfast and keep the little bits for tea ;) revan5's post [13 posts above, previous page] above sums up my own view on what is happening/what could happen next, and puts it way better.

The new look at the exact meaning of Irene’s words in Chap. 36 was interesting but doesn’t quite shake the foundations of the import of her words. The standing translation of ‘drew me forth’ is accurate enough, imo, unless the Japanese meaning implies an active invitation rather than simply being beckoned forth.

Despite Riful’s majestic reappearance, this chapter has actually *shifted* away from the burning issue of 'will Riful survive Alicia, Beth & the AE’ to Clare’s development. Teresa as a latent, emerging, distinct consciousness within Clare? The birth of an entirely new entity comprising Ra-Ciela and Clare-Teresa? Teresa and Rafaela as more than just fleeting acquaintances? I like each of these scenarios and at the same reject them.

Teresa, much as we love her, is dead. What remains of her is what’s inside Clare but it’s not a personality in its own right. While we know that yoma retain human memories, the process by which Clare was infused with Teresa was implicitly different – surgical procedure, rather than metabolic consumption. There has never been any indication that Teresa is a separate & distinct, if dormant, consciousness, within Clare – notwithstanding the dream/vision sequence in Chap 26 pps 154-156, which can be taken as a symbolic representation of the changes slowly working inside Clare. NOT as Teresa taking an active part in Clare’s further development.

Yagi stays away from supernatural/preternatural deus ex machina. Within the given set of fantasy elements of his story (yoma, yoma powers etc), practically everything has an explanation or foundation in the [materialistic] rules of his world. Those rules incline toward the quasi-scientific or pseudo-scientific but I think we can all pretty much agree that magic & mystical justifications are wholly absent. ‘Souls’ may exist in this world but, as in ours, they are not necessarily resurrected.

The crux of the matter now is Clare’s devpt. Her future encounter with Priscilla is still the pivot of the story and we now know for certain that she's nowhere near AO level. This chapter ended on a note of acute mystery rather than menace, so it’s safe to bet that Raciela will not pose an immediate threat to Clare. There are four possible outcomes (summation of all previous speculations above):

1. Clare’s inner Teresa (as a distinct, active personality) is roused to life and they are merged a la Raciela, thus fulfilling the Twin Goddesses motif.
2. Clare’s inner Teresa (as her latently great potential) is roused and she receives, for lack of a better term, a power boost, thus fulfilling….
3. Raciela awakens, which can be further split into: (a) She aligns herself, passively or actively, with Clare and the Ghosts (b)She stays true to known AO behavioural pattern and aligns herself to none whilst adding to everyone's woes.
4. Raciela wishes Clare to end her existence once and for all but not before their mind(or whatever) link has worked a significant effect on Clare’s yoki.

We have little to no concrete data on 2 important factors: How much of a primary human donor’s (eg Teresa) memories, etc, are retained by the subject (Clare, in this case), in even the simplest form; and, How deep did her relationship with Rafaela go. Even if that brief meeting in the woods was the only one, it's evident that she left a very deep impression in Rafa's mind. Even as a decommissioned Claymore, Rafa would have heard about Teresa's exploits. There's no doubt anyway that Rafa had quickly grasped Teresa's yoki sensing abilites - and perhaps, even in her merged state now, is calling out to the Teresa part of Clare. For what purpose? Speculation begins...

A question that sort of came up is "But why now? why not when they met each other in Chap 50, pps 136-143, why didn't Raf show any sign of wanting to deepen their acquaintance if she and Teresa knew each other well. So how can we claim there's any latent Teresa in Clare"?? While Rafa's lack of emotion or curiousity strengthens my opinion that she had no meaningful relationship with Teresa, the absence of any reaction is not in itself damning. Raf was even more emotionally shut off than any Claymore and I doubt she had *any* interest in anything besides killing/saving Luciela. To phrase it colourfully, she was a cold, harsh, tragic figure whose sole purpose in life was to find her sister and set right what had gone wrong.

What I'd like to hear is everyone's thoughts on Rubel's motives. He's a shrewd and inscrutable manipulator, plus a self-outed double agent. Is it possible that he may have pointed Clare towards Raciela in order that Raciela may awaken, meet Alicia & Beth, and finish them off? The twins pose the single greatest threat to DoD faction up to now. I imagine Rubel would want to see this 'line of research' brought to a decisive conclusion.

@AmoreDoll, agree with you about Renee, she's becoming a fave. Ticky's portrait of her over in the images thread is proof: this Claymore should be gracing the covers of Vogue. :)

Edit: textual refs. are to BE version. don't have a personal copy right now x)

clarakiss~

2009-05-03, 02:47

@anyone Could someone tell me where this male claymore are stronger than females can from. I keep seeing it repeated here in many posts but I can't recall it. I recall Ermita saying males where great fights (not stronger) in the English sub of anime (I'm failing to recall the Japanese line there) but that not in the manga. Or at least not said by Ermita in the Slashers arc...

i didn't say it but i do believe the males were stronger. miria said it herself, they were a complete success, however they awakened too quickly and the org turned to females for better control.

if the org started making new male claymores now, they'd be stronger. it's how it is in the real world... and as for teresa, she was very special is all i have to say. one of a kind.

Ryus

2009-05-03, 02:59

all i'm saying is, from a human's standard, it's similar to raki deflecting a yoma's attack, just like he demonstrated when returned to his village. clare deflected daufs attack and raki deflected a yoma's attack. it isn't something to get so awe about. and now, here comes the 'you can't compare the two!' response. :uhoh:

:confused: No, here comes please better explain your response. I didn't follow the logic, how does Raki's clear improvement in skills correlate to your original statement that any single digit could have deflected Daufs massive rod attack that Clare had to go over her limit to deflect (For those just joining in quick recap: Miria said Clare was a single digit in the Slashers arc then she gained more power when she gained Irene's arm.).

I can't say you can't compare the two if you failed to do so yourself... all I can tell you to do is retype up your argument, so I can tell you "you can't compare the two" later. (Just kidding) :p

Ryus

2009-05-03, 03:10

i didn't say it but i do believe the males were stronger. miria said it herself, they were a complete success, however they awakened too quickly and the org turned to females for better control.

if the org started making new male claymores now, they'd be stronger. it's how it is in the real world... and as for teresa, she was very special is all i have to say. one of a kind.

I kinda understand your the males would be stronger if more where made now as apposed to back then. (As to your belief that everything improves all the time... that wasn't the case in the medieval civilization, you could live a life time without any modernization maybe one or two new revolutions if you where lucky. However the org looks like they would be exempt to that historical fact. We today see technological breakthroughs everyday, our point of view of the speed of modernization is jaded.)

However that's is not what was said in the other posts. They flat out said that male warriors are stronger than female warriors.

Cyclone

2009-05-03, 04:06

A question that sort of came up is "But why now? why not when they met each other in Chap 50, pps 136-143, why didn't Raf show any sign of wanting to deepen their acquaintance if she and Teresa knew each other well. So how can we claim there's any latent Teresa in Clare"?? While Rafa's lack of emotion or curiousity strengthens my opinion that she had no meaningful relationship with Teresa, the absence of any reaction is not in itself damning. Raf was even more emotionally shut off than any Claymore and I doubt she had *any* interest in anything besides killing/saving Luciela. To phrase it colourfully, she was a cold, harsh, tragic figure whose sole purpose in life was to find her sister and set right what had gone wrong.

There is a potential explanation for that. In chapter 50, Raphaela was not in trouble. After Clare was told by Rubel about Raphaela and Riful, a sense of "must save my freind" could have appeared from the Teresa inside her. This is something Rubel could very well be counting on.

As for Teresa ressurecting to the point of Clare taking off her shirt and there's Teresa's head chatter away - I don't think anyone has ever claimed that. It's a strawman argument. The dream sequence followed by Clare's increased Teresa-like ability to read youki in battle, is an example that some small bit of Teresa lives on in Clare. If that bit is growing as Clare's partial awakening progresses.... well... we really don't know how much it could manifest itself.

As for the "surgical" nature of Clare getting Teresa's flesh and Yagi staying away from the supernatural...
Let me remind you it's a story about hunting demons by half humans half demons who use a magical demon energy to gain super human powers, and if they use too much, they turn into monsters.

Anyways, Claymores are created by implanting flesh of youma into humans which gives them the youki their donor material had. If it works for youki, why not memories? thoughts? Clare said early on, that being a Claymore is a continual battle between the human half and the youma half. When they lose this battle - they turn into youma. But Clare's source material is not a youma - it's Teresa. We really have no clue on how that will change things exactly.

shippU

2009-05-03, 04:29

As for Teresa ressurecting to the point of Clare taking off her shirt and there's Teresa's head chatter away - I don't think anyone has ever claimed that. It's a strawman argument. The dream sequence followed by Clare's increased Teresa-like ability to read youki in battle, is an example that some small bit of Teresa lives on in Clare. If that bit is growing as Clare's partial awakening progresses.... well... we really don't know how much it could manifest itself.

Lol, that image was scary TOTAL RECALL! I didn't mean that either, more on the lines of Teresa manifesting herself so strongly that we see it's not Clare anymore.

I'm aware of the 'supernatural' elements in this story. 'Within the given set of fantasy elements of his story' meant the yoma and yoki, etc. Working on this set of given elements, I only meant that there hasn't been anything on the lines of supernatural activity to justify a Teresa resurrection. I could be wrong.

I kinda understand your the males would be stronger if more where made now as apposed to back then. (As to your belief that everything improves all the time... that wasn't the case in the medieval civilization, you could live a life time without any modernization maybe one or two new revolutions if you where lucky. However the org looks like they would be exempt to that historical fact. We today see technological breakthroughs everyday, our point of view of the speed of modernization is jaded.)
However that's is not what was said in the other posts. They flat out said that male warriors are stronger than female warriors.

Male vs female warriors? Chap 27, Miria says: "The male ones were a success" in this translation. Not a greater success. The anime puts her words in Ermita's mouth, to wit: "Male warriors were a success, actually". The org would naturally turn to experimenting on male humans first, for the single reason that the male of the species are known to be more aggressive and social norms would dictate they would be first choice for the martial aspects of life. There's the likelihood that they also made stronger Claymores, but the infusion of yoma into a human body,IMO, skews the universally accepted male:female physical strength ratio. It would have depended on how well the fusion went. However, it doesn't rule out the possibility that male Claymores were on an average stronger than female Claymores.

The Claymore world is by no means medieval, never mind all the swordbuckling. Look at the towns, the architecture and layout are based on early 18th century European style - that's a visual approximation. The clothes they wear. It's an almost post-apocalyptic world, where a catastrophe has brought civilization to a standstill or stagnant condition. Not quite regression but any renaissance is still on the very distant horizon.

ChainedPhilosophy

2009-05-03, 06:40

but they're also larger and heavier and thus vulnerable against faster Claymores

--Riful, Rigardo and Isley are AB's/AO's who though massive enough in their awakened forms were exceptionally speedy and alert.

:) Mental conflicts created by readers of diverse opinions, whence, cannot be integrated into one could just be left probable though.

I have a question regarding how these Claymores possess their abilities after the so-called implants of demon energy into a host Claymore/trainee. Does the outcome of the experimentations based on probability? Or that the 'surgeons' could have apprehended the possible outcome of the experiments? Meaning, that they choose the host of a superpower demon energy at random? Well, we all know that the org's existence came primarily to experiment for a 'perfect weapon'. It is just not clear where there source materials were. Could it be that Theresa was a recepient of a dragon demon energy? If the org does not necessarily select a youma (or maybe know what the extent of the demon's powers are) to implant on a soldier, then what's the reason why they keep on creating Claymores who were less powerful. To qoute, rankings from 1 to 20s were generally digestible to hunt down ABs which are youki-wise powerful. I mean, what's the use (Is it just to potect the 47 towns from infiltrations of org-created youmas?). We know the org's ill intentions but the org itself cannot benefit from the creation of such less powerful soldiers.

Any further/farther ideas?

MalakTawus

2009-05-03, 06:43

Irene vs Ghosts (WITHOUT YOKI!): maybe the ghosts could win but if they fight like against Agatha a lot of them would have died imo.Why?Claire's wc CAN'T stop Irene's qs at all!
It's said that her wc is slower than her previos qs,and her previous qs was only HALF the speed of Irene's qs.All the others except Miria can't help in the fight because they can't even see or feel Irene's sword!If they go near they are dead in an istant,since they can't defend against her attacks they would be dead as soon as she attacks= there is no way they can't die if they fight.The only possibility is Miria'phantom and Claire's qs at the same time....
Of course if the ghosts use yoki the situation would be VERY different.

About Irene not being able to fight Rigardo because he is faster is stupid.He is faster than her,but he ISN't faster than her sword!Even Miria is a lot faster than Claire but she can't even touch her if Claire fight seriously.....and again Claire was defending herself with a sword that is LESS than HALF speed of Irene's.....

And btw Sordes, just because someone think differently from you about something NOT CLEARLY SAID in the manga it doesn't mean that they have stupid theories.
I agree that someone could have a vision totally different about these matters that makes perfect sense, but you should learn to respect different opinions.

MisterJB

2009-05-03, 07:16

About Irene not being able to fight Rigardo because he is faster is stupid.He is faster than her,but he ISN't faster than her sword!Even Miria is a lot faster than Claire but she can't even touch her if Claire fight seriously.....and again Claire was defending herself with a sword that is LESS than HALF speed of Irene's.....

You are overrating Irene. Ryus has a really good post about this.
Where does is says in the manga that Clare's sword was LESS than HALF speed o Irene's? If Irene gave her arm to Clare, it wasn't because the arm would be slower. Clare's arm is Irene's arm, period. Irene might be able to control it better but, it wouldn't be THAT much better. The truth is that we saw Rigardo stopping the QS.

And Miria is WAY faster than Clare, Cynthia can keep up with Clare and Miria...Miria is the Phantom.

MisterJB

2009-05-03, 07:27

@anyone Could someone tell me where this male claymore are stronger than females can from. I keep seeing it repeated here in many posts but I can't recall it. I recall Ermita saying males where great fights (not stronger) in the English sub of anime (I'm failing to recall the Japanese line there) but that not in the manga. Or at least not said by Ermita in the Slashers arc...

Isley was stronger than Luciela (both number #1)

Dauf was stronger than Galatea (both number #3)

That six-armed Awakened Being (who wasn't on single digit status) cleaned the floor with Miria (number #6)...literally.

MalakTawus

2009-05-03, 07:43

SagaraSouske

2009-05-03, 07:50

Isley was stronger than Luciela (both number #1)

Dauf was stronger than Galatea (both number #3)

That six-armed Awakened Being (who wasn't on single digit status) cleaned the floor with Miria (number #6)...literally.

Isley is stronger then Luciela by a hair. An honest comparison of their power is they are about equal.

Can't really compare AB Dauf vs Claymore Galatea or 6-Arm AB to Claymore Miria.

MisterJB

2009-05-03, 07:57

Irene said that Claire's sword has only half the speed of the original.Fact.
Claire said Galatea that her sword now (wc) is slower than her previos sword (qs).Fact.
Logical conclusion=Claire's wc is slower than half Irene's qs.
It's not an opinion.It's a fact.
Of course Claire's qs NOW could be even faster than Irene's qs.I'm sure we'll know soon, when Claire decides to use Yoki.

....and btw we DON'T KNOW if Riful is weaker than Isley.I think Riful is a bit stronger,if not why risk to use Alicia if they can use the Abyssal eaters....but of course we'll never know (probably) for sure who is stronger between Isley and Riful.

Where do Irene say that? Gimme a page.
I think you are talking about Clare's sword beofre Irene gave her the arm. After that, Clare's sword is as fast as Irene.

Clare used QS against Rigardo, not WC.

We don't know for a fact that Isley is stronger than Riful. We do know that Isley is stronger than Luciela and if all the AOs have +/- the same strength, I have to say that the male one is probrably sligthly stronger than the females.

The Org is using Alicia because they don't want to wait seven or more years until Riful is finally eaten. Using Alicia is safe bet and it's quick.

SS: Why can't we compare Galatea to Dauf and 6-arm AB with Miria?

In raw power, Dauf is way above Galatea but Galatea could have defeated him with intelligence because that guy is brainless.

The 6-arm Ab was not a single digit AB and yet, he defeated easily Miria who was a single digit.

SagaraSouske

2009-05-03, 08:09

We don't know for a fact that Isley is stronger than Riful. We do know that Isley is stronger than Luciela and if all the AOs have +/- the same strength, I have to say that the male one is probrably sligthly stronger than the females.

SS: Why can't we compare Galatea to Dauf and 6-arm AB with Miria?

In raw power, Dauf is way above Galatea but Galatea could have defeated him with intelligence because that guy is brainless.

The 6-arm Ab was not a single digit AB and yet, he defeated easily Miria who was a single digit.

Just because Isley is slightly stronger then Lucilla as an AO has no bearing on males being slightly stronger then female claymores. It you go down that path, I can say female are stronger because Priscilla is clearly a whole lot stronger then Isley.

In raw power both male AB are stronger then Galatea and Miria, but that's comparing apples to oranges. In raw power, 2 female AB would be much stronger then Galatea and Miria too. That doesn't reinforce the statement that male claymore is stronger then female claymore.

MalakTawus

2009-05-03, 08:12

It's in scene 38.
It's AFTER Irene cut her arm.Irene say that with her arm,Claire's sword will have half the speed and power.
....and btw, WITHOUT Irene's arm it's clearly said (by Irene, again in scene 38) that Claire's qs has LESS than 1/10 than Irene's arm.
You should go to re-read that chapter.

MalakTawus

2009-05-03, 08:17

Just because Isley is slightly stronger then Lucilla as an AO has no bearing on males being slightly stronger then female claymores. It you go down that path, I can say female are stronger because Priscilla is clearly a whole lot stronger then Isley.

In raw power both male AB are stronger then Galatea and Miria, but that's comparing apples to oranges. In raw power, 2 female AB would be much stronger then Galatea and Miria too. That doesn't reinforce the statement that male claymore is stronger then female claymore.

I totally agree!
Isley is a bit (only a little bit!) stronger than Luciela,not because he is male but simply because someone had to be slightly stronger and it happened to be him.
Maybe Riful is stronger than Isley,maybe not,but genre doesn't matter at all.

Sorry for double post.

irvinethearcher

2009-05-03, 08:19

There are several things to consider here.

The fact that Raphaela and Teresa knew each other, I now take as a given. Yagi did not put the Raphaela and Teresa Scene in the flashback just to make Teresa fans happy, afterall. There was a reason and this was it.
Raphaela was alive and well all of Teresa's adult life. It's likely that it wasn't their only meeting. In fact, Raphaela is the ideal candidate to give Teresa her well founded suspicions of the Organization. With Rubel's "Teresa is dead" comment, it's pretty much given they knew each other well.

So this much at least, is not a mystery to me.

The issue for me is who is controlling Clare - Teresa or Raphaela.
There are 2 reasons I doubt it's Raphaela:
1) Clare wanted to meet Raphaela since talking to Rubel. That should be well outside of sensing range for either of them. This indicates that the desire came from within Clare (i.e. Teresa). Clare also got a headache when doing to see Raciella - all of Galatea-sama's or the Pieta AB's manipulations seem to be without that side effect. This also indicates an source inside Clare.
and
2) I don't think Raciella is THAT powerful to be able to manipulate Clare from inside a castle and Clare being unable to fight it at that distance. If Clare was being herself, she would try to fight it, and I have enough respect for Clare to think she could do a good job fighting the manipulation. If the source is Teresa, though, she can't really fight that.

All in all though, I'm starting to believe that this was Rubel's plan all along in having Clare go after Raphaela. Afterall, Rubel knew of the Teresa-Raphaela relationship. I think whatever will happen, Rubel had all of this planned out.

What if it is an advanced kind of soullink coming from raciella?
Perhaps clare was chosen by raciella becaause of her ability to supres yoki as a ghost in combination with her sensing ability instead of renee?
But to me it seems that clare was drawn to it from the start after yuma lost her leg, so i find it indeed very strange that raciella can call her from that long distance even if she is in stealth mode. Therefore i think it was theresa.

Defiled one

2009-05-03, 08:31

I am pretty sure something will come out of those "coccon" gals. Well, Clare needed a new following "thingy"

Pretty sure she`ll get attached to the first thing it sees "Clare" and it follow her and pet her and feed and..you know, stuff that things that follow you do. :joke:

MisterJB

2009-05-03, 08:38

It's in scene 38.
It's AFTER Irene cut her arm.Irene say that with her arm,her sword will have half the speed and power.
....and btw, WITHOUT Irene's arm it's clearly said (by Irene, again in scene 38) that Claire's qs has LESS than 1/10 than Irene's arm.
You should go to re-read that chapter.

You're right on that. Even so, half of Irene's QS wasn't able to touch Rigardo. Don't see why a full Irene would be able to kill him. Chopp an arm and wound him, yes but killling him? I don't think so.

SS:
A male AB who wasn't a single digit beat a female single digit. Maybe a female one would have been able to do it, maybe not.
What I'm trying to say is that (please don't think of me as chauvinist because of it) in general rule, male ABs are stronger than females. Unfortunately, we don't know that number of the 6-arm and we don't know if he was a 10, 20, 30.

But, when it comes to single digits, the difference is not that big anymore and a female AB whose number is above a male, then the female will be stronger, of course.

Now, looking at AOs. Isley was a normal Claymore, he had a normal training. On the other hand, Luciela had been trained to defeat AOs and yet, he still won. Unfortunately, if Isley really died, we now can't know if he was also sligthly stronger than Riful. I think he would have been.

SagaraSouske

2009-05-03, 08:58

SS:
A male AB who wasn't a single digit beat a female single digit. Maybe a female one would have been able to do it, maybe not.
What I'm trying to say is that (please don't think of me as chauvinist because of it) in general rule, male ABs are stronger than females. Unfortunately, we don't know that number of the 6-arm and we don't know if he was a 10, 20, 30.

But, when it comes to single digits, the difference is not that big anymore and a female AB whose number is above a male, then the female will be stronger, of course.

Now, looking at AOs. Isley was a normal Claymore, he had a normal training. On the other hand, Luciela had been trained to defeat AOs and yet, he still won. Unfortunately, if Isley really died, we now can't know if he was also sligthly stronger than Riful. I think he would have been.

We don't know whether or not the 6 arm AB is single digit or not. We were never told what rank warrior he was. Even if he isn't, he is an AB, not a claymore. An AB awakened from a non single digit claymore defeating a single digit claymore gives no evidence of male being stronger then female.

You can think male are stronger then female. That's your opinion. I am just saying that the supporting examples you used to backup your argument weren't good ones.

If you say Isley was a normal claymore and had normal training and compare to Luciela that way, then what about Priscilla who hardly had any training at all? All i am saying is Isley/Luciela AO comparison is not enough to support or deny whether or not male is stronger then female or vise versa.

MisterJB

2009-05-03, 09:16

We don't know whether or not the 6 arm AB is single digit or not. We were never told what rank warrior he was. Even if he isn't, he is an AB, not a claymore. An AB awakened from a non single digit claymore defeating a single digit claymore gives no evidence of male being stronger then female.

You can think male are stronger then female. That's your opinion. I am just saying that the supporting examples you used to backup your argument weren't good ones.

If you say Isley was a normal claymore and had normal training and compare to Luciela that way, then what about Priscilla who hardly had any training at all? All i am saying is Isley/Luciela AO comparison is not enough to support or deny whether or not male is stronger then female or vise versa.

Rubel indirectlly said that the AB wasn't a single digit. He said that the female AB that Ophelia killed was a single digit and thus, much stronger than the male AB.

If a non-digit male AB defeated a single digit female Claymore, that give us evidence. It is possible that a female Ab of the same number would have done the same damage, we can't be sure.

The problem is that we haven't seen a lot of female ABs in Claymore and the ones we saw, were either abnormally strong (Luciela, Priscilla) or extremelly unimpressive (Katea, AB in chapter 83). There wasn't a visible middle term in female ABs.

Priscilla, like Teresa, was a rare exception. It was so rare, that the Org and Riful tought that it was impossible for Priscilla to have defeated Isley in the North. Riful only discovered it after seeing Priscilla in person.

MalakTawus

2009-05-03, 09:48

You're right on that. Even so, half of Irene's QS wasn't able to touch Rigardo. Don't see why a full Irene would be able to kill him. Chopp an arm and wound him, yes but killling him? I don't think so.

SS:
A male AB who wasn't a single digit beat a female single digit. Maybe a female one would have been able to do it, maybe not.
What I'm trying to say is that (please don't think of me as chauvinist because of it) in general rule, male ABs are stronger than females. Unfortunately, we don't know that number of the 6-arm and we don't know if he was a 10, 20, 30.

But, when it comes to single digits, the difference is not that big anymore and a female AB whose number is above a male, then the female will be stronger, of course.

Now, looking at AOs. Isley was a normal Claymore, he had a normal training. On the other hand, Luciela had been trained to defeat AOs and yet, he still won. Unfortunately, if Isley really died, we now can't know if he was also sligthly stronger than Riful. I think he would have been.

Half Irene's qs wasn't able to hurt seriously Rigardo,but a sword twice as fast (and twice as powerful)isn't a small power-up,it's a HUGE power-up at those levels of speed. If Rigardo can't defend himself from Irene's sword he is dead since he doesn't have a though skin like Dauf.
I doubt that Rigardo can keep up with Irene's sword since if he had that speed in his arms he would have killed Claire in an istant even if he didn't fight seriously,instead Claire could parry Rigardo attacks (even if she suffered in power and leg-speed).
...and btw we are comparing AB Rigardo with normal Irene, it's quite evident that Irene is a lot stronger imo,an awakened Irene would destroy Rigardo,but since we'll never know for sure you can think that Rigardo was more powerful.

and the 6-arm-AB could have been a single digit,but even if he wasn't it's not that you can compare an unknown rank awakened male with non-awakened girls,it's not very fair.....and i think we can agree that now that they have more experience, some of the ghosts are stronger than male ABs....so again,genre matters only because males have a lot of experience.

and btw even in the case that a non-single-digit male kills a single digit non-awakened girl we have no evidence.
...and even if the 6-arm-AB isn't single-digit,the fact that a single-digit AB girl is stronger than him substain the fact that genre doesn't matter

SagaraSouske

2009-05-03, 10:03

Rubel indirectlly said that the AB wasn't a single digit. He said that the female AB that Ophelia killed was a single digit and thus, much stronger than the male AB.

If a non-digit male AB defeated a single digit female Claymore, that give us evidence. It is possible that a female Ab of the same number would have done the same damage, we can't be sure.

The problem is that we haven't seen a lot of female ABs in Claymore and the ones we saw, were either abnormally strong (Luciela, Priscilla) or extremelly unimpressive (Katea, AB in chapter 83). There wasn't a visible middle term in female ABs.

Priscilla, like Teresa, was a rare exception. It was so rare, that the Org and Riful tought that it was impossible for Priscilla to have defeated Isley in the North. Riful only discovered it after seeing Priscilla in person.

I don't understand how you arrived at the conclusion that male claymore is stronger then female claymore because a non single digit male AB is stronger then a single digit female claymore, especially since there are no data contradicting that a female non single digit AB couldn't be the same.

The AB Ophilia killed was stronger then Ophilia. She only got killed because she was careless and thought she had already killed Ophilia by twisting her neck.

Agatha certainly was pretty impressive. She was arguably stronger then Dauf based on Galatea's fight and was used as a show case on how strong the ghosts have become. The 22 male ABs Isley send down were merely cannon fodders that got wiped by Ritful and Alica. Should I say majority of male ABs are weaklings too then?

Ryuken

2009-05-03, 10:15

Well, naturally men are build stronger than woman, but there are different cases and also unique cases. But I don't think this really applies in the claymore world.:)

Sordes Pilosus

2009-05-03, 11:21

Another folish remark. Irene could not best Clare and Miria together, let alone together with the rest of the ghosts. There are plenty of evidence for this already in the manga, so do pay some attension please.

First a Breakdown of the 3 "Combatants":

Irene: A Number 2 known for her skill with the quick sword aswell as her calm composure. This makes her a very good central figure in any party and excelent at Yoma extermination. This role is simular to that of Miria where she is excelent as a leader figure in virtualy any hunt. Her main weakness is actualy speed. During the hunt for Teresa its shown that Teresa had no problems stoping Irene's quicksword without releasing. Why is this ? It was due to Teresa's insane ability to read Youki to predict movements.

Miria: The Phantom as she is called for her Insane ability in terms of speed. Be it quicksword or other abilities Miria's insane reaction speed and ability to use her Mirage ability to make it dificult for her oponents makes her very hard to keep track of requiring alot of consentration to follow, add the fact that she is now cloacked she cant be followed by sensing her Youki movments making things even harder for Irene.

Clare: Clare is a unpredictable Claymore with 3 Main Features, she is known to be a Berserker gaining strenght the more she loses herself in battle (This is due to her youki usage but in this fight is a negliable ability as its based on the presumtion that Miria and Clare stay cloacked.) Her other 2 current features is the Windcutter, its Acuracy has gone up quite alot compared to the Quick Sword she used to use, however she has lost some power and speed. For referance sake lets place it around 35% (lower then i think but stil enough) compared to 50% that Clare's Quicksword was compared to Irene's quicksword. Her last ability however like Teresa is the ability to read Youki down to miniscule details, her ability is seen the last time used to be growing (First time seen used was in Slayer's, next vs Rigaldo) but when last seen not at the level that Teresa used, but its been 7 years since last seen and might have devoloped further, to be expected considering the ability has been growing at a steady rate since first seen used.

-----------------

Now for a battle breakdown:

Irene vs Miria & Clare.

Irene alone will have problems with either oponent as each oponent has as her strenght one of the elements Irene strugles with. Miria has insane speed meaning to even follow Miria's movments high consentration on Miria is needed as she cant be sensed with Youki sensing due to Miria being cloacked. This means that while Irene has a chance 1 on 1, she has almost none in a 2 vs 1 situation. The reason for this is that she also needs to pay attension to Clare.

If Miria goes in first Clare will have no trouble reading the movments of Irene's Quicksword and using her Windcutter as 1 out of 2 Effection Options: Strike at a unguarded spot, Used to block the Quicksword. Even if Clare can only block it partly, due to Miria's speed its enough to land a hit, and if Clare just dodges the Quicksword and lands a "light" counter its enough either way to wear Irene down slowly without taking mutch dammage.

If Clare goes in first it will be Clare on the deffensive but with the ability to read and sense Irene's attacks and hense be able to protect her vital area's easily, aswell as block alot of the strikes. However due to Clare also using Windcutter a fast strike attack Irene cant afford to not pay attension to it, leaving Miria with her intense speed control and reaction to easily land some more heavy blows on Irene.

Either way both Miria and Clare are alone strong enough to hold Irene's attension by themselves leaving Irene open from attacks from the other. While im unsure who id bet on if it where only 1 on 1 id never bet on Irene in a 2 vs 1 situation not in Irene's favor. She cant win it. A great example is the Theresa hunt which is Irene near her Peak performance, watching how she fights there then compare Irene's strenghts vs Miria and Clare. Clare is used to the Quicksword and Windcutter and with her reading ability can match up her lack of power with her accuracy to strike where she needs to in time to parry or block attacks. Miria has fought Clare with her Windcutter so she knows the dangers of a quicksword and while having some trouble as seen in the Miria vs Clare battle after timeskip in landing blows its doubtfull either was fully serious at the time, but Clare had to pay very close attension to Miria in order to deffend. So while both Miria and Clare would be on the deffensive in a 1 vs 1 with Irene, together they form a team that Irene cant beat due to the actual abilities of Clare and Miria both requires the full attension of the one their fighting, AB's aside, Claymore's aint as universal in a battle against multible strong foes. Irene cant win agaisnt the Ghosts, she would fall against just Miria and Clare, while not a short fight she would be grinded down, wounded intil more serius openings would start to show.