[Anime] Umineko - Speculation & Theories (for first time viewers) [Archive] - Page 2

Luxa

2009-07-15, 07:12

I've reformatted your post a bit, to make answering easier.
Mmm yeah....but still it's a possibility me thinks. Think about these questions.
a, How can one person take out 6 people without any help? Without noone noticing?
b, If they were dead 6 hours, they had to be dead around 12 midnight or so. 5 minutes before 12 am they were all still alive and talking. The corpse were discovered around 6 am. Can one person pull that off?:cool:
c, Next, it's a huge island. Who knows what/who really is on that island even before Battler and the others came? Kinzo might have an idea. Suppose there are others in the island, it's also a possibility that one of the 18 people (the supposed culprit) is connected to them. The possibilities are endless for a third party to enter the picture. Kyrie doesn't have to be right.
d, The bloody circle at the shed makes it look like the culprit(s) is/are into rituals.

Blah I'm just laying down all speculations I have so that I can cross them out as episodes go along.

a, With using magic, for example. Otherwise let's suppose he has some experience and a little bit of madness. Then he can drug all the family members (not poison, just something like sleeping pills) and after sabotaging the telephone system, they are fair game. Taking out Shanon and the cook are a bit more risky, but can be done quietly if one has the physical strength. (I suppose.)
If the family is drugged, than there are only Kinzo and perhaps the doctor remaining in the house, so after the act, the killer can move freely.
b, I think that the bodies were found more like around 8 or something and determining the time of death might not be that accurate. (Or the doctor could be guilty.) Killing them could be done in three hours, taking them to the shed is another two hours, drawing the symbol is about half an hour, our suspect could have also taken a nice hot shower in the morning. :)
c, That's completely true. However I wouldn't like it for breaking the isolated, we know all the suspects mood. :)
d, True, but any family member could be also into the occult. We know that Kinzo and Maria are. (from TIPS)

plzd0ntkeelme

2009-07-15, 09:04

A well-built wall will always have a higher STC than a cheaply made one. Plus, of course, one would not want a mansion with paper-thin walls in the guest rooms lest guests disturb one another. While he may not have gone for STC 70+ like expensive hotels have, STC 50 (which is what current international building code requires between units of a multi-family dwelling) is a realistic value for a well-built wall. It's unlikely any expensive building like a mansion would have an STC lower than 45 for their internal walls, since below that it would be annoying for guests even just having people in adjacent rooms talking (speech is about 60 dB). It's not like Kinzo's building the cheapest McMansion he can manage; we can assume reasonable care was taken in its construction, and it's a reasonable assumption that the walls are rated STC 50 or higher, just for the comfort of the residents and guests.

Also, all walls tend to be better at blocking higher-frequency sounds than lower. A sharp crack such as a gun report has a lot of high frequency components, so an STC50 wall will probably reduce those components by more than 50 dB.

And since guns tend to be from 130 to 170 dB, do the math. Three walls at STC 50 would turn 130-170 dB into -20 to 20 dB. 0dB is the threshold for the quietest sound a person can hear (negative values are below the threshold of hearing), and 20 dB is about the volume of rustling leaves.
Well as long as these numbers don't come from estimation, as in you got them from respectables source or you've done lots of sound lvl measurements, then great.
-Genji aka Kinzo's bff saw the bloody handprints on Natsuhi's door and acted like nothing happened. It didn't register to him that those might be someone ELSE'S blood. He even said he will clean it.:) Like it's nothing. Like the prankster doesn't matter.

My current speculations which can obviously end up as nothing but BS talk:p: There's a cult involved who loves to draw bloody ritual circles. There are more than 18 people on the island. And. Beatrice EXISTS. I'm still not ready to accept the rationale about the glowing, pixie sprinkling, flying caterpillars. Not when one butterfly was real enough to illuminate Beatrice's portrait. :eyespin:

The red prints were noticed before Genji and Natsuhi discover the corpses. They can't be sure that those're blood yet. Even after the corpses have been found, you still can't be sure that those are blood unless told otherwise. It might just be red paint, the killer's trick to imply supernatural power is in action.
Next, it's a huge island. Who knows what/who really is on that island even before Battler and the others came? Kinzo might have an idea. Suppose there are others in the island, it's also a possibility that one of the 18 people (the supposed culprit) is connected to them. The possibilities are endless for a third party to enter the picture. Kyrie doesn't have to be right. The bloody circle at the shed makes it look like the culprit(s) is/are into rituals.

Blah I'm just laying down all speculations I have so that I can cross them out as episodes go along.

There might be someone else in the island, but whoever he/she is, can't be the one who gives the umbrella and letter to Maria. This "Beatrice" would have to know the exact position of Maria and all the others in the area, in order to approach Maria in the open at the garden while she happen to be alone, without any of the other 17 individuals noticing that someone else has entered the property.

Karlson

2009-07-15, 17:00

Are Eva and Hideyoshi not supposed to be in the mansion? I sure did not get this impression from the anime.
Gohda was also in the mansion all night at different area of the building than the 3siblings and Kyrie.

Yeah I was on my way to class today and suddenly realized that too, just ignore it :p

As far as Ghoda is concerned though, I've suspected from the beginning that the servants would've been killed off before the guests since generally you kill the patrollers first so they aren't in the way unless I go by the "poisoning the guests" (where one of them can be used to kill them) theory which involves no gun anyway.

Ok I just finished the raw, I'll keep my analysis to a minimum here since I'm gonna need the subs to clear up alot of questions as to what happened, but it seemed like a lot of theorizing on the character's parts so we should get quite a few answers to some of our questions.

My impression that the killer left no trace was...clearly wrong judging by that scene in the dining room with the blood how odd...The weapon is choice is now currently up in the air for me till the subs come out.

Also Eva and Hideyoshi are out of the picture. I guess the theories on Natsuhi being the killer just grew that much stronger but I'm eager to know what exactly Genji told Kanon right before the scene jumps to Kanon rushing back with Kumasawa. Seems like it depicted Genji was staying behind but that's why I need the subs to clarify on that. Either way we know the painting didn't show up till Kanon came back with Kumasawa.

Totally couldn't understand everything else save for that part with Natsuhi and the moments with Maria being her usually self :heh:

maximilianjenus

2009-07-15, 17:24

The red prints were noticed before Genji and Natsuhi discover the corpses. They can't be sure that those're blood yet. Even after the corpses have been found, you still can't be sure that those are blood unless told otherwise. It might just be red paint, the killer's trick to imply supernatural power is in action.

In the novel it's crealy said it gives the impression of being paint.

Also a bit about building, while I don't know about japan myself, but in some western countries houses are not built with wood, but rather more rocky materials I live in Mexico and lately there have beena lot of gunfights I don't end up noticing because of the construction of my house. I am talking about gunfights like 50 to 100 meters distance in very quiet hours.

Karlson

2009-07-15, 17:45

From the latest episode's poll thread.

The only odd thing I noticed was Shannon's tears were fresh when they showed her face but she was supposed to have died six hours prior.

He has a point, why do we see her tears there? They should've dried by that point. And just like that the theory that one of the dead from the first twilight isn't really dead after all doesn't sound so crazy anymore

Although something tells me that was just a mistake on the creators' parts :heh:

unconfirmed

2009-07-15, 18:31

From the latest episode's poll thread.

He has a point, why do we see her tears there? They should've dried by that point. And just like that the theory that one of the dead from the first twilight isn't really dead after all doesn't sound so crazy anymore

Although something tells me that was just a mistake on the creators' parts :heh:

Yeah, it's a mistake because there weren't any tears on her face (or what's left of it) in the game iirc.

Christen

2009-07-15, 19:01

The tears is probably just an overlooked fact. Or maybe Hideyoshi and Kanon dropped some water from the rain :heh:

In any case, it isn't important really.

Ithekro

2009-07-15, 21:46

Well we have a murder waepon for at least two murders now. Unless someone stuck those stakes into an existing hole I'd day they got them pounded into their skulls.

MeoTwister5

2009-07-16, 06:44

Here are the contents of the first magic circle Maria mentioned to contain the passages of Psalm 116:16-17

16 O LORD, truly I am your servant;
I am your servant, the son of your maidservant [c] ;
you have freed me from my chains.

17 I will sacrifice a thank offering to you
and call on the name of the LORD.

orenronen

2009-07-16, 08:08

It's probably not all that important, but as long as you bring up the Psalms passage, it's worth noting that while the VN had a blurry image not even resembling Hebrew, the anime version gets it right. However, only the second part of 16 is written in the circle ("you have freed..."). 17 is reproduced in full.

Also not mentioned in the anime is the Hebrew text inside the circle, basically a list of names of angels and demons from Jewish mythology. From what we get in the anime, I can make out Ariel, Cherub, Tarshish and Morloch. The rest aren't written clearly or are too stained by blood. IIRC, the VN has Maria explaining that as well by this point, though I can't remember the exact details.

Klashikari

2009-07-16, 08:16

This is correct. Maria quote these following 4 angels and 4 kings;
Chasan, Arel, Phorlakh, and Taliahad.
then, Ariel., Seraph, Tharshis, and Cherub.`

MeoTwister5

2009-07-16, 08:27

I'm pretty sure the angels weren't names, but rather a list of the angelic hierarchy. Seraph should be the top of the 4, Cherub I think is next but don't quote me on that. The next IIRC are the kings post-Solomon kings in the Book of Kings.

Jan-Poo

2009-07-16, 09:00

There are many different angel hierarchies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierarchy_of_angels). I wouldn't be surprised if the Seraphs and Cherubs ranks of christian belief are actually angel names in some other context

nagare

2009-07-16, 09:30

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/6703/7sun.jpg
The Seventh and last Pentacle of the Sun.--If any be by chance imprisoned or detained in fetters of iron, at the presence of this Pentacle, which should be engraved in Gold on the day and hour of the Sun, he will be immediately delivered and set at liberty.

Note.--On the Arms of the Cross are written the Names of Chasan, Angel of Air; Arel, Angel of Fire; Phorlakh, Angel of Earth; and Taliahad, Angel of Water. Between the four Arms of the Cross are written the names of the four Rulers of the Elements: Ariel, Seraph, Tharshis, and Cherub. The versicle is from Psalm cxvi. 16, 17:--'Thou hast broken my bonds in sunder. I will offer unto thee the sacrifice of thanksgiving, and will call upon the Name of IHVH.'

What's on the shed (Episode I)

http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/5273/scorpions.jpg
The Fifth Pentacle of Mars.--Write thou this Pentacle upon virgin parchment or paper, because it is terrible unto the Demons, and at its sight and aspect they will obey thee, for they cannot resist its presence.

Note.--Around the figure of the Scorpion is the word HVL. The versicle is from Psalm xci. 13:--'Thou shalt go upon the lion and adder, the young lion and the dragon shalt thou tread under thy feet.'
What's most likely on the charm Maria gives Battler and Jessica (Episode I)

Edit
This info is not in the game, but based on research I've done, so it may or may not be worthwhile to consider.

maximilianjenus

2009-07-16, 09:31

ok guys this is how the first twilight happened, so stop fighting.

Krauss, Eva, Hideyoshi, Rudolf, Kyrie and rosa were having the inheritance discussion in the mansion,when they decided to ask gohda for some team, since gohda was really busy solving a crucigram he told shannon to make and serve it. Shanon was completely out of it because of george's proporsal, so she used absynthe instead of water to make the tea; After drinking the tea Eva started getting very amicable to shanon and said that she would be really happy if she would become part of her family, then she said she was getting a bit BLEEP and that she and hideyoshi would have to leave so they could BLEEP in their room. But then she broke in tears and said that she felt bad for natsuhi and that she wanted to apologyze for calling her a BLEEP.So, eva and hideyoshi when to natsuhi's room, eva started banging on natsuhi's door but she was deep asleep, then eva got a bit angry and decided to pull a joke on natsuhi, got a bucket of paint and then hand painted on natsuhi's door. After that she left for her room.
Back to the rest of the adults, They kept on drinking absynthea while discussing about the inheritance, then Krauss suddenly stands up and declares that he is going to find the gold and split it evenly amongst all the siblings; after that he tells call gohda so he helps them then the group (Krauss, Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa, Gohda and Shannon) goes to natsuhi's room so she can help them, but she did not answer them, Rosa gabs the bukcet of paint just in case it becomes useful.
Once they got out of the mansion Krauss says that they should better go to the shed to grab some tools, so they can dig the gold, Kyrie points out that they don't even know where the gold is but Krauss disregards her opinion because she is a woman.
Once they get to the shed they notice it's closed and they don't have the keys, Rosa says that she will paint a magic circle to open the door while gohda searches for the shed's key; one hour later Rosa is done with the circle, but much to her surprise she did not paint the "open doors" circle because she was pretty wasted; 30 minutes later gohda arrives with the key to the shed; after 17 tries gohda is finally able to unlock the door to the shed, then he drops the keys while missing his pocket. After that the group getsinside to search for some tools,gohda closes the door a bit so the rain does not get inside, Rudolf says that the tea was really good and gohda says that it is his specialty, Shanon then gets angry at gohda because she is the one who made he tea and starts a fight using the tools, which ends up killing everyone.
At around that time Kanon was having a small walk while wearing a dress and a blonce wig, then she notices something weird in the shed, the door is not closed properly! so she picks up the key gohda dropped, locks the door, and put the key bck in the servant's room, when she is getting back to the guest house she notices kinzo is also taking a walk under the rain so she walks to him and gives him an umbrella; kinzo thanks her and asks her to take him to a warm room, so Kanon takes kinzo to the warmest room in the mansion, after than kanon is tired so she goes to the bed while giving her last tought to her beautiful, big breasted, rich, lesbian grilfriend.

Marion

2009-07-16, 09:36

.........Did you take a page out of Ryukishi's solution book maxi :|~

MeoTwister5

2009-07-16, 09:37

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w97/MythagoWoods/Laughing.jpg

Jan-Poo

2009-07-16, 10:40

LOL Max

Anyway I just noticed something

The Fifth Pentacle of Mars

What part of it exactly is a pentacle?!!!!
I always said that magic doesn't make sense whatsoever

June 1983

2009-07-16, 11:14

A pentacle can actually refer to any type of amulet or talisman/magical symbol. A pentagram refers to a five pointed star. They're just used synonymously a lot.

Jan-Poo

2009-07-16, 11:23

June 1983

2009-07-16, 11:27

Heehee, well, it's possible. Most things to do with magic or religion can be traced back to big messy misinterpretations and misunderstandings.

Wiki has a few possibilities for the etymology of the word:

The Oxford English Dictionary gives the history of the word as obscure, but suggests an apparent derivation from the Greek prefix penta- (five) combined with the Latin suffix -culum (diminutive). An Italian word pentacolo appearing in 1483, is used to refer to 'any thing or table of five corners'.[15] Mixed formations like this are not uncommon in medieval Latin.

The Oxford English Dictionary also offers an alternative possible derivation from the Middle French word pentacol (1328) or pendacol (1418), a jewel or ornament worn around the neck (from pend- hang, à to, col or cou neck).[15][16] This is the derivation the Theosophical Society employ in their glossary:

...it seems most likely that it comes through Italian and French from the root pend- "to hang," and so is equivalent to a pendant or charm hung about the neck. From the fact that one form of pentacle was the pentagram or star-pentagon, the word itself has been connected with the Greek pente (five).[17]

A current draft Third Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary gives only the derivation penta + culum, and defines it as a pentagram, especially enclosed in a circle; a talisman inscribed with such a shape; or any similar magic symbol; pentacle and the Middle French pentacol are considered separate and unrelated words.[18]

Narokath

2009-07-16, 12:17

- I'm still pointing the finger at George being the culprit or at least a culprit at one time. My reasoning was that the second twilight line in the epitaph would setup Eva and Hideyoshi as being killed to fulfill George's interpretation of the Text; which happened.
- The servants seemingly know a lot about Beatrice so I wouldn't be surprised if they are very in tune with these ritualistic sacrifices.
- Someone drew the symbol on the door seemingly after they were already dead inside (They didn't answer and when they broke in they were dead).

Whether or not these deaths are supernatural, one or more of the people on the island is influencing the others deaths in accordance with the epitaph. Suffice to say, it looks like Maria has a lot of knowledge in the occult and undeniably feels that Beatrice exists.

So according to reports, Beatrice exists as an entity but does not have a physical manifestation in the world... So how is SHE the one carrying out these murders? We see the golden butterflies hanging around, and in accordance with Beatrice being in the OP, I would say she definately does have some existence but merely as a Spectator currently (Probably watching the family attempting to carry out what is in the Epitaph). If any of the deaths are supernatural one of the "humans" on the island is pushing the buttons like the summoning of demons/devils or possession. Its only a guess but I would probably say that someone close to Maria as a friend to know roughly what she knows is one of the people setting up these murders; or Beatrice is using Maria as a medium of communication (doubtful); or Maria has some underlying connection with Beatrice like a magic affinity or radar? (Seems more likely)

So as a deduction for who might the killer be out of the living ones (in my opinion);

Beatrice - I believe she is an external spectator in this matter, and that she doesn't actually physically harm anyone on the island. It's said she appears as golden butterflies so why can't they be just her floating around watching everything.

Kanon - Too loyal, and takes his job very seriously. He knows a bit about the history behind Beatrice but other then that there's not enough information to suspect him.

Genji - Same as Kanon, a little more suspicious as he seems to be the one at every incidents discovery.

Kumasawa - Old lady, I don't see a motive as such and there has been little to no information about her.

Nanjo - I don't know enough about him other then that he MAY know something from spending probably the most time around Kinzo.

Maria - Very obscure little girl, it's impossible for her to physical carry out these murders. Her aura suggests that she probably would though, so assuming supernatural death and her knowledge in these pentagrams as well as her very miniscule signs or remorse, she could very well be causing them.

Kinzo - I think he views this as a game of wits more or less, I don't think he is the murderer but he did put this chain of events in motion and as such probably knows the operation of this game.

George - This guy is too suspect, over 3 episodes he is shown to be very laid back and very subtle even though he is in the centre of it all. I look forward to seeing his reaction to his parents deaths. He is shown to be a supporter to Maria in her occult beliefs and knows a fair amount of History related to the family.

Jessica - Her grievance is too reassuring to be the killer, she might know something though with giving the charm to Natsuhi (This could be a condition in which she didn't die).

Natsuhi - She is seemingly the leader and a lot of the incidents just would not make sense had she been the one behind things. Not saying she is out of the picture; just very unlikely.

Battler - He seems to be the least knowledgeable in regards to history and a firm believer that the occult is a load of rubbish. He looked very likely to be the killer on the first twilight with his performance but from now he looks genuinely focused on catching whoever it is. The whole opening title and ending theme with the chessboard comes to mind when he talks about his chessboard solution. So he definately seems centric to the story and as such he will probably last till the last few people deducing who it is until the very end.

That doesn't exclude the dead; the disfiguring of faces could be a cover to allow one of them (I don't believe 2 of them would be in on it amongst those) to operate freely by having them assumed dead because of a random body planted in the shed. This secondary body could be that of Kinzo (missing) or some outsider that was brought in hidden on the boat or luggage.

I personally think this sets up Shannon and George perfectly with the ring and everything. (Refer to previous post) >< Also; brain hurts.

Goilveig

2009-07-16, 12:18

Frankly I have little doubt that this extended meaning derive from improper use of the word, since the "penta" in "pentacle" clearly originates from the greek "five". I also have no doubt that no Jew ever used such a word.

I can't help but facepalm in front of such a melting pot of different notions and misinterpretations that led to these magic circles.

The magic circles are mainly copied from the Key of Solomon, a famous grimoire which allegedly was written by Solomon but more realistically dates from 14th or 15th century Europe.

And yes, at that time, pentacle was used to refer to any magical charm; the oldest magical charms did have a pentagram, but the synonym pentacle expanded in meaning. That's not uncommon with words -- "terrific" and "terrifying" were once synonyms meaning inciting terror; "terrific" has expanded in meaning while "terrifying" has remained the same.

Sinn

2009-07-16, 12:52

In episode 3, I find the head buttler suspicious, for 1 he asked Kanon to go grab something to break the chain, well hu knows he gets in and kills Eva and her husband and runs to get Natsuhi. How does he do that? Eva and her husband was still alive at the time, Eva woke up from the noise and lets the buttler in, the buttler gets in and kills both of them, and got out of there in time. Though I don't think there's much time anyway :heh: Just a wild guess.

That doesn't exclude the dead; the disfiguring of faces could be a cover to allow one of them (I don't believe 2 of them would be in on it amongst those) to operate freely by having them assumed dead because of a random body planted in the shed. This secondary body could be that of Kinzo (missing) or some outsider that was brought in hidden on the boat or luggage.

I personally think this sets up Shannon and George perfectly with the ring and everything. (Refer to previous post) >< Also; brain hurts.

Wow nice deduction =O, that really makes sense, hmm...

chounokoe

2009-07-16, 13:28

nagare

2009-07-16, 13:45

The magic circles are mainly copied from the Key of Solomon, a famous grimoire which allegedly was written by Solomon but more realistically dates from 14th or 15th century Europe.

That was omitted in the anime.
Maria states the magic circle is the 7th sun seal of Solomon.

The above two are taken from the Greater Keys.

plzd0ntkeelme

2009-07-16, 14:29

- The servants seemingly know a lot about Beatrice so I wouldn't be surprised if they are very in tune with these ritualistic sacrifices.
- Someone drew the symbol on the door seemingly after they were already dead inside (They didn't answer and when they broke in they were dead).

Whether or not these deaths are supernatural, one or more of the people on the island is influencing the others deaths in accordance with the epitaph. Suffice to say, it looks like Maria has a lot of knowledge in the occult and undeniably feels that Beatrice exists.

So according to reports, Beatrice exists as an entity but does not have a physical manifestation in the world... So how is SHE the one carrying out these murders? We see the golden butterflies hanging around, and in accordance with Beatrice being in the OP, I would say she definately does have some existence but merely as a Spectator currently (Probably watching the family attempting to carry out what is in the Epitaph). If any of the deaths are supernatural one of the "humans" on the island is pushing the buttons like the summoning of demons/devils or possession. Its only a guess but I would probably say that someone close to Maria as a friend to know roughly what she knows is one of the people setting up these murders; or Beatrice is using Maria as a medium of communication (doubtful); or Maria has some underlying connection with Beatrice like a magic affinity or radar? (Seems more likely)

So as a deduction for who might the killer be out of the living ones (in my opinion);

Beatrice - I believe she is an external spectator in this matter, and that she doesn't actually physically harm anyone on the island. It's said she appears as golden butterflies so why can't they be just her floating around watching everything.

That doesn't exclude the dead; the disfiguring of faces could be a cover to allow one of them (I don't believe 2 of them would be in on it amongst those) to operate freely by having them assumed dead because of a random body planted in the shed. This secondary body could be that of Kinzo (missing) or some outsider that was brought in hidden on the boat or luggage.

I personally think this sets up Shannon and George perfectly with the ring and everything. (Refer to previous post) >< Also; brain hurts.

If the servants' words are taken literally, then there is no end to the possibilities. I mean she's a witch. Who could tell the limit of Beatrice's spells, or rather if anybody can stand up against it. It's a great solution to the murders tho'.

For the dead, apparently they are damaged in weird varieties. Some lost most of their faces, whereas Shanon still have at least half left.
-Is the killer just did not have time to damage all the faces for some of the victims. Does this mean that the less damage on the face, the later the time of death for that victim?
-Or is this a possibility of a double? Although the killer could've gone all the way to chop off their heads to further conceal the corpses' identities. But the thing is the killer did not bother to mutilate Eva and Hideyoshi's faces,but yet bother to remove the 6 victims'. There's gotta be explanation for that.

Regarding Shanon's tears, it might be a poison that makes someone unable to move but still conscious. Considering that she was alone patrolling, someone could've shoot her with tranquilizer, the type that just paralizes without putting someone to sleep. While being smashed on the face, she then cries over her fate. If this is correct, I feel bad for her.

As for Eva and Hideyoshi, i think the killer might have already been hiding in their room. After killing them, the killer left through the window and goes somewhere to watch the movements of the servants. When the killer see that they are heading to Eva and Hideyoshi's room, he/she then wait for them to go grab something to cut the chain. The killer then "paint" the demon symbol, which could probably be something that's already printed like a tatoo. This reminds to back in the day when there was the fake tatoo fad where you put it on just by pressing some paper to your skin. Similar trick might work in drawing that demon symbol.

Klashikari

2009-07-16, 14:46

Regarding Shanon's tears, it might be a poison that makes someone unable to move but still conscious. Considering that she was alone patrolling, someone could've shoot her with tranquilizer, the type that just paralizes without putting someone to sleep. While being smashed on the face, she then cries over her fate. If this is correct, I feel bad for her.
Regardless if she had the time to cry or not before getting killed (which is unlikely, since the facial damage is estimated to be done after the actual death), it doesn't explain how the tears can remain on her face for several hours.

There is no need to explain an animation inconsistency so.

chounokoe

2009-07-16, 15:11

R
There is no need to explain an animation inconsistency so.

Do we KNOW it's an inconsistency?

Jan-Poo

2009-07-16, 15:16

well I can only say this because this discussion is going in a dangerous direction. There's no way a body dead for 6 or more hours would still have the tears it shed before dying. Water tends to evaporate you know...
I'll let you speculate if it is an inconsistency or not.

Luxa

2009-07-16, 15:59

That doesn't exclude the dead; the disfiguring of faces could be a cover to allow one of them (I don't believe 2 of them would be in on it amongst those) to operate freely by having them assumed dead because of a random body planted in the shed. This secondary body could be that of Kinzo (missing) or some outsider that was brought in hidden on the boat or luggage.

Kinzo can't be used as a body there as he met Natsuhi a bit before.

-Or is this a possibility of a double? Although the killer could've gone all the way to chop off their heads to further conceal the corpses' identities. But the thing is the killer did not bother to mutilate Eva and Hideyoshi's faces,but yet bother to remove the 6 victims'. There's gotta be explanation for that.

As for Eva and Hideyoshi, i think the killer might have already been hiding in their room. After killing them, the killer left through the window and goes somewhere to watch the movements of the servants. When the killer see that they are heading to Eva and Hideyoshi's room, he/she then wait for them to go grab something to cut the chain. The killer then "paint" the demon symbol, which could probably be something that's already printed like a tatoo. This reminds to back in the day when there was the fake tatoo fad where you put it on just by pressing some paper to your skin. Similar trick might work in drawing that demon symbol.
There might be an occult explanation, otherwise I vote for hiding a cause of death. Or a face eating demon.
Also TIPS say that the windows were also locked from the inside. But I suppose that putting the doorchain back from the outside could be done, and then only a key is needed.

Do we KNOW it's an inconsistency?
Someone mentioned in the episode thread that she had no tears on her face in the VN. Of course, it does not mean it is an inconsistency, just really lowers the chance. (ED: Or it might be George's tears, shed recently over her ex's body. :) )

Also, If we follow the mundane route, Kumasawa can't be the murderer, at least not alone: she has no time to paint the symbol. Also at least one of Kumasawa and Kanon are innocent: they wouldn't have to act otherwise. (Or at least believe the other to be innocent.)

If it wouldn't be a too obvious solution I'd say that Maria is a culprit with summoned demons or somethings, but not channeling Beatrice, just being plain mad. She seems totally crazy already innocent or not...

plzd0ntkeelme

2009-07-16, 17:35

Regardless if she had the time to cry or not before getting killed (which is unlikely, since the facial damage is estimated to be done after the actual death), it doesn't explain how the tears can remain on her face for several hours.

There is no need to explain an animation inconsistency so.
I actually still don't get that part. Nanjo estimate the time of death based on rigor mortis (which apparently can be delayed if the corpses are stored in low temperature). But as for the facial mutilation, all he said was "it is likely that it's done after the murder" without any clear reason. I still think that it was assumption by the doctor. I mean the killer could've just tranquilized them and mutilate their faces. Someone whose faces got removed would die anyway from blood loss.

Although I just read that since the tears are not in the VN, it's probably just dramatization from the animation studio.

There might be an occult explanation, otherwise I vote for hiding a cause of death. Or a face eating demon.
Also TIPS say that the windows were also locked from the inside. But I suppose that putting the doorchain back from the outside could be done, and then only a key is needed.

Someone mentioned in the episode thread that she had no tears on her face in the VN. Of course, it does not mean it is an inconsistency, just really lowers the chance. (ED: Or it might be George's tears, shed recently over her ex's body. :) )

The problem is not just about face mutilation but about how some lost the whole face, some lost more than half, and some still retains half like Shanon. Is this on purpose or the killer just randomly mutilate their faces as he feels like it? But I doubt the latter tho' seems the whole murders are quite planned out to say the least.

Jan-Poo

2009-07-16, 17:39

Someone mentioned in the episode thread that she had no tears on her face in the VN.

Wait I don't think it is possible to make such statement. Umineko doesn't have any "event image" like most VN, there are only backgrounds, character portraits (with different facial expression), special graphic effects, and other miscellaneus stuff.

In a few words this mean we have never seen how the murdered people appear in the VN. Sure the TIPS show a graphic representation of their wounds, but as you can see in the TIPS section made by Klash, they are only there to give you an idea of the kind of wounds and it's pretty schematic.

Everything we know mainly come from descriptions, but you certainly can't expect the novel to describe everything on every minimal detail.

risingstar3110

2009-07-16, 20:15

Ok, ep 3 showed us that: there are more than one culprit that caused all these events; the culprits are not only the human (the 18 people on the island) nor the supernatural beings (the witches), but also another natural (in anime standard) forces.
It's the equivalent of Himazawa Syndrome. Something that caused all kind of weird things and no way audience can foresee its existence....
Let me explain as below:

Btw i have a weird feeling that there is a shape shifter in Umineko , seriously :heh:

Anyway back to Ep prediction......
Ep 1-3, first it's unlikely for those inside the house to enter the room, killed those two, then walk out of the door, lock and chain it, then draw those things.

It's still possible, as someone can come in(or come out if they hide inside the room) when Hideyoshi taking a bath, pull out something so shocking (from a not-yet-mentioned past event, perhaps) that Eva was stunned and then proceed to kill her right at that moment. Then he/she come in the bathroom and killed Hideyoshi. He then have three options:
- hide in the room until everyone come unlock the door, where he can choose a moment to join in as he just entered the room
- hide in the room until Genji open the door with his key, waited for both of them to leave and play a trick with the chain ( cut and temporary connect so it looks like it was not cut yet). This is less likely because he/she may encounter some1 guarding the door
- escape as soon as possible, using the mentioned chain trick, and secondary key to unlock

The part where it's not possible (the reason that a third force other than the witch and people inside the house) is suspected is because there is no criminal stupid enough to stay even for one moment to paint the door when everyone can rush in and corner him. No freaking way. Maybe Maria hide somewhere and did it since she is weird enough lately? As if she can paint that with her height.....
Unless a force can foresee the future and decide to do it because he/she knows no one coming. Beatrice? She has no reason to do that..... xD

Another two one thing that should also be noticed:
- Shannon last moment in George's mind. She looks terribly sad, as if she can foresee her or George's deaths (Was proved that it'not in the novel)
- every servants (from young to old) in the house totally believe Beatrice's existence, her butterfly and her role in the murders. They knows as much about Beatrice as the audience ourselves.... Maybe something happened in the past that proved Beatrice's obvious existece? A time loop and dejavu effects(E8 xD)? Not enough information yet....

Klashikari

2009-07-16, 20:18

One thing: No, Shannon was actually immensely happy, but weirdly enough in the anime, she is shown very concerned and reserved. But it is the other way around: she is really overwhelmed in joy when George gave her the ring, then couldn't stay calm due to the emotion overload and made up her excuse that she has to go to the mansion.

Manga version for reference:
[/URL][URL="http://img170.imageshack.us/i/0632.jpg/"]http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/2632/0632.th.jpg (http://img170.imageshack.us/i/0632.jpg/)

risingstar3110

2009-07-16, 20:20

I will cross the Shannon part then xD

sora1412

2009-07-16, 20:29

Klashikari

2009-07-16, 20:32

No actually, Shannon noticed the butterfly as well in the VN, but only once she is doing her round in the mansion, same goes in the manga, unless you are talking of something else.

Tamad

2009-07-16, 21:31

Now that Eva and Hideyoshi are out of the picture, I have to say that my last two possible logical suspects are Natsuhi and Kinzo himself.

I found Eva's actions in relation to the receipt and the door very odd. She claims it was just a prank, but what if she was doing that to raise suspicion towards Natsuhi... because Eva actually believed that Natushi had something to do with the murders. Eva has always given off the suspicious aura, but there might be a lot more to her than she seems, and trying to put the blame on Natsuhi may be more than just their bad relationship. Just a random thought though, but it seems possible enough.

Natsuhi has the most motivation right now, as the killer made sure to specifically target all of Kinzo's children. Now that they're gone, she's the one who's going to receive the inheritance. There's also the fact that shes the only one now who's seen the gold, thus knows for a fact that it exists. She can also easily dress up as Beatrice and trick Maria, thus helping create the illusion of Beatrice. She was shown sleeping during the first twilight, but she could either have an accomplice to create an alibi for herself, or they showed us that just to throw us off, and the markings on her door was done by herself to create an alibi. It may seem like a stretch right now, but that's the only logical theory I can come up with right now. :heh: No one else besides Kinzo and herself have any motive, and Maria is far too small of a child to carry out the first twilight on her own.

One thing that bothers me about Kinzo is that... what if Battler's theory was correct. It may seem silly at first, but why would a man like Kinzo go through the trouble of hiding under his bed and leaving without anyone seeing him. Either way, people are going to know that he went missing, so did do that because he went somewhere that he didn't want anyone else to know about. There's the possibility that he already knew about the murders, thus didn't want to get questioned by his children... but why go through all the trouble when he can intimidate or ignore them like he has for the past two episodes. Something isn't adding up with Kinzo, so I hope we find out more about that soon.

Well now that think about it, it's still possible for one of the six victims in the first twilight to be the killer, as Eva and Hideyoshi's faces weren't smashed in. Why smash the faces during the first twilight and not the second? There has to be a significance, and it could very well still be the old theory of someone who's dead not actually being dead.

It's still possible, as someone can come in(or come out if they hide inside the room) when Hideyoshi taking a bath, pull out something so shocking (from a not-yet-mentioned past event, perhaps) that Eva was stunned and then proceed to kill her right at that moment. Then he/she come in the bathroom and killed Hideyoshi. He then have three options:
- hide in the room until everyone come unlock the door, where he can choose a moment to join in as he just entered the room
- hide in the room until Genji open the door with his key, waited for both of them to leave and play a trick with the chain ( cut and temporary connect so it looks like it was not cut yet). This is less likely because he/she may encounter some1 guarding the door
- escape as soon as possible, using the mentioned chain trick, and secondary key to unlock

The killer knocked, walked in, surprise attacked Eva, then took out Hideyoshi in the bathroom. Depending on the kind of lock it actually is, I don't see why the killer would had to risk getting caught by hiding in the room. That's what confuses me about the chain too, because my house door has a similar chain lock for it, can easily be disconnected from the outside... so why go through all the trouble of a chain cutter? The markings on the door is the biggest mystery, as we don't how long it took for Kanon to get the chain cutter and return. The killer was obviously watching from a distance, but why go through the trouble and risk of putting the markings on the door in the first place? It's like the killer forgot it after the murder or something. :uhoh:

I'm more curious about the contents of the letter. :)

Sinn

2009-07-16, 21:34

But remember, the chain still had to be cut by Kanon when he returned and found the seal on the door.
IF Genji entered the room, how did he set the chain back?

I was wondering if we could lock the chain from the outside Dang, the only option is to hide inside the room and pretend to get inside when the others aren't paying attention. I also had my suspicion on Natsuhi, since they can work together to avoid suspicion.

Ahh this is a headache, lol

risingstar3110

2009-07-16, 21:48

The killer knocked, walked in, surprise attacked Eva, then took out Hideyoshi in the bathroom. Depending on the kind of lock it actually is, I don't see why the killer would had to risk getting caught by hiding in the room. That's what confuses me about the chain too, because my house door has a similar chain lock for it, can easily be disconnected from the outside... so why go through all the trouble of a chain cutter? The markings on the door is the biggest mystery, as we don't how long it took for Kanon to get the chain cutter and return. The killer was obviously watching from a distance, but why go through the trouble and risk of putting the markings on the door in the first place? It's like the killer forgot it after the murder or something. :uhoh:

I'm more curious about the contents of the letter. :)
My house don't have a chain, but why your house need a chain if you can unlock it from outside? =D
The chain support to be short enough, that's unless you close the door, you can't remove or put it in (if you close the door, obviously the outsider can't remove it ). The space of the door also small enough and in such angle so that you can't see things inside, or get your hand or any common tools to unlock the chain. That's why it always have to be cut.....
Chain(without certain trick) = some1 locked the door from inside

As mentioned, unless the culprit can see the future (to watch out if any1 unexpectedly turn up), there is no way he will stay and paint the door, even if he can draw the whole things in 30 secs

"And that's when we turn the chessboard over" (sorry but it sounds too cool to not using this line xD )
Natsuhi's charm, the garden shed, Kinzo's disappearance and Eva & Hideyoshi's deaths support to give general audiences (and the servants and Maria) a feeling that the murderer is non-human, Beatrice perhaps. In the same time, based on those and the events background (isolated island and mansion) gave us skeptical audiences, the feeling that it was human with certain skills and tricks behind all these(looks at Higurashi poll and you see lots of ppl after watching 1st few eps believe ridiculous stuffs were done by human).

Therefore the secret behind those events must be done by all elements: certain culprits, not-yet known forces, the supernatural beings, and by the victims themselves

Karlson

2009-07-16, 22:58

Well at least we know where some of the murders took place. Weapon of choice is still anyone's guess (unless I'm retarded and completely missed it) but at least we now know it can be a weapon that leaves a bloody mess.

I really like Battler's way of thinking in this episode. I wouldn't have even thought about that method of how Kinzo left his study room. Only thing is...it might point out that Kinzo is possibly still in the study, just that he's still in hiding somewhere in there, but I'm pretty sure the time Eva and Natsuhi went into that room to search for him wasn't the only time so it's doubtful. I wonder (if in fact he is gone) why he had to leave and where would he possibly go. Maybe that place that was pointed out by Maria at the beginning of the first episode?

Pretty shocking development with the servants believing in Beatrice. I had a feeling Kumasawa did but I didn't expect Kanon and Genji to believe that too. Seems like only those who believe in her can actually see her just like I expected. So we know the golden butterfly is a form that Beatrice occasionally changes to and that she doesn't have a body so to speak, but right now her true form is "no form"? It's sounding more and more like she's currently just a spirit wondering this mansion right now or at least that's what its being made out to be through my eyes. This is so god damn confusing but at least that definitely backs the notion that the person in the rose garden in the first episode truly isn't Beatrice, since she doesn't have a body so it couldn't be her going by that. :eyespin:

One thing is for sure...whoever this killer is apparently can draw those symbols pretty damn fast unless he/she has an accomplice that's doing it. I can't imagine finding a lock cutter and Kumasawa taking Kanon very long. And why was finding Kumasawa exactly necessary? Maybe to buy time?

And I'm curious to know what exactly was with the letter on the bottom of the door at the end there.

"And that's when we turn the chessboard over" (sorry but it sounds too cool to not using this line xD )
Natsuhi's charm, the garden shed, Kinzo's disappearance and Eva & Hideyoshi's deaths support to give general audiences (and the servants and Maria) a feeling that the murderer is non-human, Beatrice perhaps. In the same time, based on those and the events background (isolated island and mansion) gave us skeptical audiences, the feeling that it was human with certain skills and tricks behind all these(looks at Higurashi poll and you see lots of ppl after watching 1st few eps believe ridiculous stuffs were done by human).

Therefore the secret behind those events must be done by all elements: certain culprits, not-yet known forces, the supernatural beings, and by the victims themselves

And that is why this mystery is so interesting. Fantasy versus reality. These murders and the theorizing following seem to support either/both side(s) playing a role here. The real killer may very well have an accomplice in Beatrice to mislead the others into thinking how this was all carried out. The true question could very well be what parts were carried out by human hands and what parts were carried out by way of demon magic. This whole "believing in either fantasy or reality" seems to be becoming the main recurring theme of this show for me if these episodes are anything to go by.

risingstar3110

2009-07-16, 23:50

Pretty shocking development with the servants believing in Beatrice. I had a feeling Kumasawa did but I didn't expect Kanon and Genji to believe that too. Seems like only those who believe in her can actually see her just like I expected. So we know the golden butterfly is a form that Beatrice occasionally changes to and that she doesn't have a body so to speak, but right now her true form is "no form"? It's sounding more and more like she's currently just a spirit wondering this mansion right now or at least that's what its being made out to be through my eyes. This is so god damn confusing but at least that definitely backs the notion that the person in the rose garden in the first episode truly isn't Beatrice, since she doesn't have a body so it couldn't be her going by that. :eyespin:
You make a good point here. The fact that she said Beatrice gave her the umbrella, while still state "she is here" (invisible and without any corporeal form) means even when Maria didn't lie, someone still have some ways to give her the umbrella and make it looks like Beatrice did it. Remember Kumasawa (the old woman) mentioned that the body of Beatrice in the pictured was also a girl being possessed? How about some1 turn up with sudden great knowledge of Beatrice and completely different act that can persuade Maria that she/he is curretly possessed by Beatrice then give her the umbrella and the letter (made from the ring that he/she got it).

It's true that at first i expected the 1st letter is 100% from Beatrice because the content sound "witch-like". But such knowledge can be attained from the servants or from Kinzo (especially how much they believe in her). If the one who wrote it didn't do so, Kinzo (if by chance can see it) can recognise it's a fake right away.

But now Kinzo was missing, so whether the 1st letter is fake or not, any letter from now on can say the craziest thing possible ("I, Beatrice, has murdered Eva and Hideyoshi.... i gonna kill Batter next and adopt Maria to be my child", for e.g. :heh:) and everyone will still believe it's from the same person that sent last time

plzd0ntkeelme

2009-07-17, 00:45

You make a good point here. The fact that she said Beatrice gave her the umbrella, while still state "she is here" (invisible and without any corporeal form) means even when Maria didn't lie, someone still have some ways to give her the umbrella and make it looks like Beatrice did it. Remember Kumasawa (the old woman) mentioned that the body of Beatrice in the pictured was also a girl being possessed? How about some1 turn up with sudden great knowledge of Beatrice and completely different act that can persuade Maria that she/he is curretly possessed by Beatrice then give her the umbrella and the letter (made from the ring that he/she got it).

It's true that at first i expected the 1st letter is 100% from Beatrice because the content sound "witch-like". But such knowledge can be attained from the servants or from Kinzo (especially how much they believe in her). If the one who wrote it didn't do so, Kinzo (if by chance can see it) can recognise it's a fake right away.

But now Kinzo was missing, so whether the 1st letter is fake or not, any letter from now on can say the craziest thing possible ("I, Beatrice, has murdered Eva and Hideyoshi.... i gonna kill Batter next and adopt Maria to be my child", for e.g. :heh:) and everyone will still believe it's from the same person that sent last time

The subs say "that was when she possessed a human form". The sentence did not say when she possessed a human. The meaning of the first sentence is more like as if Beatrice was a human then somehow lost her human form.

The problem with assuming that she can possess people is that we can simply reason Beatrice possessed both Eva and Hideyoshi to stab themselves on the face. This won't really make a great solution to the mystery.

risingstar3110

2009-07-17, 02:58

The subs say "that was when she possessed a human form". The sentence did not say when she possessed a human. The meaning of the first sentence is more like as if Beatrice was a human then somehow lost her human form.

The problem with assuming that she can possess people is that we can simply reason Beatrice possessed both Eva and Hideyoshi to stab themselves on the face. This won't really make a great solution to the mystery.
If we assuming Beatrice killed Eva, Hideyoshi and others, then we won't have to worry if she can possess people or not. She can easily kill people as a witch even when her only super ability is to stay in incorporeal form (which surely untrue)

The point here is whether Maria (and the servants) believes Beatrice can possess others or not. Because if so then the actual culprit can fake his/her identity as Beatrice in front of these people, and used that as his/her advantage

Jan-Poo

2009-07-17, 07:10

One thing: No, Shannon was actually immensely happy, but weirdly enough in the anime, she is shown very concerned and reserved. But it is the other way around: she is really overwhelmed in joy when George gave her the ring, then couldn't stay calm due to the emotion overload and made up her excuse that she has to go to the mansion.

Actually this was one of the most awkward thing in this episode.

HIDEYOSHI: How did Shannon face look when you parted ways?

*Flashback of Shannon's face with a serious and somewhat troubled expression*

GEORGE: She had a wonderful smile...

WTF?

Gnark

2009-07-17, 07:52

First when Kanon and Genji comes to say that dinner is ready at the door of Eve and Hideyoshi there's no drawing at the door. But after they leave and Kanon returns, the door suddently has a drawing on it.

Let's assume that Eve and Hideyoshi is dead already when Kanon and Genji arrives at the door the first time. This means the killer already is done with his work inside, I'm not going to speculate how they were killed, but prove that there is at least one human killer in this story.
Who? I don't know, but probably one who is presumed dead or missing.

If Eve and Hideyoshi already has been killed when Kanon and Genji first arrive, there is no need for anyone to enter from the outside (which was the side the drawing was on) to get in to kill them. If they needed to get out from the locked room and still keep it locked from the inside after they left the drawing would have been on the inside of the door.

I think that either there was a secret way into the room, or that the killer was in the room from the killing until the survivors had come to check and left again ( in this case the killer would have had an accomplice to draw the drawing on the outside of the door ). And that the drawing was so the others would believe that the killer must have already left the room.

I might be way off, but I still can't understand why there's no drawing on the door the first time Kanon and Genji are there if Eve and Hideyoshi already are dead. I think it can be concluded that it is not the work of Beatrice, because it wouldn't make any sense.

MeoTwister5

2009-07-17, 08:33

Christen

2009-07-17, 08:34

Actually this was one of the most awkward thing in this episode.

WTF?

George is blind or he was describing Shannon's feelings rather than her outward appearance. :heh:

Gnark

2009-07-17, 09:21

Well remember that Beatrice is claimed to be a witch, and if she has witch-like powers she isn't necessarily limited by logic, much less human physical limitations.

Well as said before: Beatrice has been seen by the servants as gold butterflies, and if this is the case it would mean that she easily could have come past the crack in the door and entered the room.

If you go to this page: magicseals (http://www.rainbowvisions.co.uk/Talismans/MagicalSeals.htm) you can find the meaning of the seal on the door:

1st Pentacle of the Moon - Open's all doors and locks, no matter in what way they are fastened.

And with this knowledge you could say that the only reason for Beatrice or anyone else to draw this on the door is to cause confusion between the survivors.
If the magic seal actually works, there still would be no point in entering the room after the job is done, if you get my drift.

maximilianjenus

2009-07-17, 10:01

Now we know why george is wearing glasses.

Paranoia833

2009-07-17, 16:46

Teapot

2009-07-17, 16:51

I don't think Eva would to just let someone into her private guestroom for no reason, or it would have to be somone she trusts and I think she would only let George into her room in this situation where there's a killer on the loose and it could be one of them.

chounokoe

2009-07-17, 17:12

Regarding the second locked room mystery... what if the killer simply knocked on the door, was invited in by Eva, killed them both, relocked the door while inserting the note and then escaped out of the window?

Then they only have to kill Genji (assuming Genji wasn't in on it) and paint the symbol on the door from the outside and it's done.

I assume you haven't read the TIP regarding the second twilight. I think it was either posted here or in the episode 3 thread.
Just to clear that up, both the door and the windows were locked. It was a perfect locked room.

June 1983

2009-07-17, 17:34

Regarding the second locked room mystery... what if the killer simply knocked on the door, was invited in by Eva, killed them both, relocked the door while inserting the note and then escaped out of the window?

Then they only have to kill Genji (assuming Genji wasn't in on it) and paint the symbol on the door from the outside and it's done.

I think it's okay to mention this since it's in the TIPS that Klash has already posted, but

the window in the room is also locked from the inside.

White Manju Bun

2009-07-17, 19:11

I doubt Natsuhi is the killer since all signs point to her itd be a let down if it was her, almost like if Eva was the killer. Obviously she cant be :heh:

Im a bit confused over the receipt in the door thing. Natsuhi goes in at 6am right? Was she in there for an hour since Eva said she put the paper in the door at 7am and when they came back at 9am it was still there.

Timewise it didnt seem possible for Natsuhi to have been talking to Kinko for an hour (and conv length time) but Eva is shown sticking the paper in after Natsuhi left.

Is my timeline off?

Ah the classic locked room :) Now if it was only locked one could argue the killer relocked it but since the chain was pulled and Kanon had to cut it, obviously this cant be done from the outside.

Also Im debating on who was killed first...if it was Eva why wouldnt her husband (whose name I cant spell) have come out of the bathroom to see what was happening. Unless Eva didnt scream when he was killed but highly unlikely she was perfectly quiet, laying face up on the bed she'd have seen how killed her. If her hubby was killed first why would Eva have let them into the bathroom. Course they could have been killed at the same time and hubby dumped into the tub :heh:

I might be looking too much into this. If it was Beatrice, witch magic takes most of this out of the equation :heh:

Gnark

2009-07-17, 19:18

Well if I remember correctly, Natsuhi wakes up 6am when Genji comes to wake her. She sees the things on her door, goes to the parlor where Eve and Hideyoshi has just arrived. They talk for a few minutes. And then Natsuhi leaves to talk with Kinzo. So the clock would probably closer to 7am than 6am.

Karlson

2009-07-17, 22:06

Alright...We know the window and door was locked. Doesn't appear the window was smashed either.

This is what I think might've happened going by what I'm seeing...

I think the killer was waiting for them in the room the whole time. Probably hiding under the bed and swiftly killed Eva before moving to Hideyoshi in the bathroom. The fact that Genji received no response from them even after he gets the door slightly opened and calls out to them leads me to beileve that the couple was likely dead before the servants even showed up. Plus there's the letter appearing out of nowhere like that too.

At 20:30 in the video you see Genji and Kanon at the door telling the couple that dinner is ready. Now watch 8 seconds later...notice the letter is directly in front of Genji's left foot? Now go back to 20:30 and you can see a nice clear view of the floor in front of that same foot, and no letter is there.

That means the letter showed up there suddenly a split second before Kanon caught sight of it. My assumption is the letter was slipped through from the other side of the door by the killer at that moment after the deed had been done.

The problem with looking at it this way is...how does the killer get out? Maybe he/she is still hiding in the room laying low until the chance comes where everyone leaves the area. Or maybe that's why the seal is there; to help the killer escape the scene before the servants return. But if so, who drew it? It couldn't have been the killer (unless he's still hiding in that room) looking at it that way since the seal was written on the other side of door from the killer.

And there's also the sound effect we hear that seems to indicate Beatrice's presense too. Where exactly was she during that moment? Obviously not in view of the servants since I'm assuming they can see her. :eyespin:

Mei19

2009-07-17, 22:07

If it really was a completely locked room, COMPLETELY no changing later on! Then the murderer should either be inside the room already before the two got there, or there's a hidden trap door involved. We don't know what kind of gadgets Kinzo built in his house. He might even have access in specific areas. That's assuming that there's no magic involved. I only watched the episode once, did Kanon see the bloody insignia on the door the first time he got there? He didnt ne? Not sure. Memory fuzzy. The killer might even still be inside when Genji and him first checked on the couple.

Tamad

2009-07-17, 22:56

Well at least we know where some of the murders took place. Weapon of choice is still anyone's guess (unless I'm retarded and completely missed it) but at least we now know it can be a weapon that leaves a bloody mess.

Well one's first thought would be the knife looking things sticking out of their head, but that could easily have been placed after their death. We won't know what really caused their death until Nanjo checks them out next episode. We still don't know the murder weapon of choice for the first twilight either. :heh:

I don't think Eva would to just let someone into her private guestroom for no reason, or it would have to be somone she trusts and I think she would only let George into her room in this situation where there's a killer on the loose and it could be one of them.

This increases the chances of the killer already being inside the room before Eva and Hideyoshi returned. George is a possibility, but I really can't see him as the murderer, especially since he reacted to Shannon's death in such a way. It could also be one of the servants.

I might be looking too much into this. If it was Beatrice, witch magic takes most of this out of the equation :heh:

Thinking about it from the logical standpoint is what makes this more fun. :heh: Claiming that a witch is behind is the easy way out, regardless of whether we are right or wrong.

Alright...We know the window and door was locked. Doesn't appear the window was smashed either.

This is what I think might've happened going by what I'm seeing...

I think the killer was waiting for them in the room the whole time. Probably hiding under the bed and swiftly killed Eva before moving to Hideyoshi in the bathroom. The fact that Genji received no response from them even after he gets the door slightly opened and calls out to them leads me to beileve that the couple was likely dead before the servants even showed up. Plus there's the letter appearing out of nowhere like that too.

At 20:30 in the video you see Genji and Kanon at the door telling the couple that dinner is ready. Now watch 8 seconds later...notice the letter is directly in front of Genji's left foot? Now go back to 20:30 and you can see a nice clear view of the floor in front of that same foot, and no letter is there.

That means the letter showed up there suddenly a split second before Kanon caught sight of it. My assumption is the letter was slipped through from the other side of the door by the killer at that moment after the deed had been done.

The problem with looking at it this way is...how does the killer get out? Maybe he/she is still hiding in the room laying low until the chance comes where everyone leaves the area. Or maybe that's why the seal is there; to help the killer escape the scene before the servants return. But if so, who drew it? It couldn't have been the killer looking at it that way since the seal was written on the other side of door from the killer.

And there's also the sound effect we hear that seems to indicate Beatrice's presense too. Where exactly was she during that moment? Obviously not in view of the servants since I'm assuming they can see her. :eyespin:

That's a very good catch actually, I never would have noticed that. That would conclude that the killer was still in the room at the time Genji and Kanon were there... assuming that it wasn't just an animation blunder.

But if the killer really was in the room at the time, then it would have been impossible for him to get out of the room. It doesn't really have anything to do with the short time frame (honestly, we still don't know how long it took for Kanon to get the chain cutter and Kumasawa), but the fact that the chain was still in tact when they returned. It's supposedly impossible to open that from the outside, so how would the killer have put it back in place when he escaped? Either the killer is still in the room, or there is a trap door. I'll make note of that a little bit down below.

There IS also the question of why Genji asked Kanon to also fetch Kumasawa, because she wasn't really needed to open the door. Buy more time? Genji could quite possibly be an accomplice in all this, and could have been the one to write the markings on the door.

If it really was a completely locked room, COMPLETELY no changing later on! Then the murderer should either be inside the room already before the two got there, or there's a hidden trap door involved. We don't know what kind of gadgets Kinzo built in his house. He might even have access in specific areas. That's assuming that there's no magic involved. I only watched the episode once, did Kanon see the bloody insignia on the door the first time he got there? He didnt ne? Not sure. Memory fuzzy. The killer might even still be inside when Genji and him first checked on the couple.

The thing about this is... if it were the truth, then it would really limit the number of suspects. You either had to be Kinzo, or you had to be very knowledgeable about the mansion. Who can we suspect under that process? The only people I could think of would be the servants, and to a lesser extent Nanjo...

Sindas

2009-07-17, 23:01

Or maybe that's why the seal is there; to help the killer escape the scene before the servants return. But if so, who drew it? It couldn't have been the killer looking at it that way since the seal was written on the other side of door from the killer.

Why can't it be the killer?

When both Genji and Kanon leave the killer unlocks the chain, paint the seal, reenters the room and puts back the chain...

Alaya

2009-07-17, 23:40

At 20:30 in the video you see Genji and Kanon at the door telling the couple that dinner is ready. Now watch 8 seconds later...notice the letter is directly in front of Genji's left foot? Now go back to 20:30 and you can see a nice clear view of the floor in front of that same foot, and no letter is there.

That means the letter showed up there suddenly a split second before Kanon caught sight of it. My assumption is the letter was slipped through from the other side of the door by the killer at that moment after the deed had been done.

It's possible. But it's also possible that it's just DEEN screwing up with the animation (like Genji case).

plzd0ntkeelme

2009-07-18, 00:19

Why can't it be the killer?

When both Genji and Kanon leave the killer unlocks the chain, paint the seal, reenters the room and puts back the chain...

That might work, kinda like how Kinzo tricked both Natsuhi and Eva. Although The killer would have to possess some speed painting trick and superb timing. The killer might be able to predict when Kanon will return since he/she is familiar with the house and knew where the chain cutter is located. The problem comes in how can he predict Genji's timing when all he said was calling Natsuhi. Unless the killer happen to know where Natsuhi was at that point in time.

The killer might also have used the letter under the door to somehow make sure both the servants will leave the room.

k//eternal

2009-07-18, 00:40

risingstar3110

2009-07-18, 00:44

Why can't it be the killer?

When both Genji and Kanon leave the killer unlocks the chain, paint the seal, reenters the room and puts back the chain...
I don't think any magic circle in this anime works (for human at least). If magic is required to kill Eva and Hideyoshi......I rather believe Umineko is about a bunches of witches play a game with 18 human lives (and have Batter aid Beatrice) than if any human actually have witchcraft.

Sindas

2009-07-18, 00:58

Karlson

2009-07-18, 01:02

Why can't it be the killer?

When both Genji and Kanon leave the killer unlocks the chain, paint the seal, reenters the room and puts back the chain...

Because when I said that, I was referring to the situation where "killer escapes the scene before the servants return". Sorry maybe I should've more clear on that. When I said the killer couldn't do it I meant she/he couldn't paint the seal and leave the area without leaving the trace of the undone chain behind. Either way its a pretty flawed way of thinking since I think the seal would still have to open the chain the normal way anyway, and the seal is said to only unlock (and not re-lock) all locks.

Assuming that the killer is still hiding in that room yes it can easily have been painted by him/her

It's possible. But it's also possible that it's just DEEN screwing up with the animation (like Genji case).

So in other words...3 rather misleading inconsistencies now and counting in a single episode. lol :heh:

Ithekro

2009-07-18, 01:06

If I recall correctly, there are paints that can be applied clear and later darken. usually due to some come of chemical change.

Could the door have been painted and then the seal not appear until after the room was openned due to a temperature change? Or a timed delay? The servants just arrived earlier than expected in that case.

Karlson

2009-07-18, 01:16

plzd0ntkeelme

2009-07-18, 01:22

I'm not really siding with the magic theory, I simply wanted to point that the killer could still paint the seal while being in the room. Probably to do the classic "I fake to enter the room with the others when they open the door" trick.

However, like plzd0ntkeelme pointed out the killer would need insane timing. Didn't someone mention these already painted sheet of paper that you only need to press on a surface to paint a picture? That's a possible fast painting trick...
rofl That someone would be me.
If I recall correctly, there are paints that can be applied clear and later darken. usually due to some come of chemical change.

Could the door have been painted and then the seal not appear until after the room was openned due to a temperature change? Or a timed delay? The servants just arrived earlier than expected in that case.
I think the temperature should stay almost the same throughout the house since the windows are all locked. The house should be using some centralized ventilation system.

Ithekro

2009-07-18, 01:51

Goilveig

2009-07-18, 01:55

There IS also the question of why Genji asked Kanon to also fetch Kumasawa, because she wasn't really needed to open the door. Buy more time? Genji could quite possibly be an accomplice in all this, and could have been the one to write the markings on the door.

In the VN I believe it's explained as him not wanting Kanon to be alone. Since he clearly suspected foul play, it could be to protect Kanon against allegations he cut the chain and then killed the couple. If Kumasawa is with him, she can vouch that they were dead as soon as the door was opened.

risingstar3110

2009-07-18, 02:09

Are there any varnishes that start out clear and then darken as they cure or dry? I've heard of some stories that use things like this, but all I'm remembering is one that disappears after a time so that it appears someone is crazy in thinking there is blood on the walls. This case it is reversed, or could seem that way if actual blood isn't used, and it wasn't painted between the time the servents found the door locked and they discovered the painted seal when they returned to cut the chain.

Just something to think about.
I really don't think any chemical can work that way, especially in this case. If you paint something like that, what if Genji can see the transparent liquid as he approach the door (when you are caution, you do in everything)? Even if he didn't, what if he try to knock on the door, or worse try to ram the door down.... his hand and back will be painted with red just few moment after that and the trick will be exposed

plzd0ntkeelme

2009-07-18, 03:16

I really don't think any chemical can work that way, especially in this case. If you paint something like that, what if Genji can see the transparent liquid as he approach the door (when you are caution, you do in everything)? Even if he didn't, what if he try to knock on the door, or worse try to ram the door down.... his hand and back will be painted with red just few moment after that and the trick will be exposed

Another problem will be the culprit has to design special goggle to look at it because he has to be able to see what he's drawing considering the sophistication of the painting (the pattern and the letters).

kingsky123

2009-07-18, 05:18

question: if everyone on the island dies, is there anyone who would gain something from it?

MeoTwister5

2009-07-18, 05:23

question: if everyone on the island dies, is there anyone who would gain something from it?

If the current trend is to be followed, the Golden Witch is the benefactor.

maximilianjenus

2009-07-18, 09:50

question: if everyone on the island dies, is there anyone who would gain something from it?

They kinda skipped it in the anime but it's on the official site anyway, just in case.

naw.. I will give the novel a chance, let's just say that there is always some far away relative that can inherit the money. That is, if everyone dies, but since there is gold in play what if someone survives, takes some gold and then dissapears to some island ? I think you guys are being very closed off in the motives, I mean, there are 20 billion yen worth of gold in play, anybody can easily be tempted to just kill everyone else and dissapear with the gold (or partof it, a single ingot is already worth a lot of money).

Gnark

2009-07-18, 10:43

They kinda skipped it in the anime but it's on the official site anyway, just in case.

naw.. I will give the novel a chance, let's just say that there is always some far away relative that can inherit the money. That is, if everyone dies, but since there is gold in play what if someone survives, takes some gold and then dissapears to some island ? I think you guys are being very closed off in the motives, I mean, there are 20 billion yen worth of gold in play, anybody can easily be tempted to just kill everyone else and dissapear with the gold (or partof it, a single ingot is already worth a lot of money).

Yeah, it's pretty easy to get sidetracked with all the "witchery" that is going on. The most plausible motive for one or more in the family is money. We know that all the blood relatives are in great need of money as soon as possible. Even without the legend of the gold, there is still a lot of money to inherit from Kinzo.

Mei19

2009-07-18, 14:15

By the way the episode ended at the evening of October 5th right? The happenings only happened between October 4th and 5th according to the epitaph thread. Are the killings gonna happen every hour now??

My thoughts right now.

-Eva and what'shisface's killer either has/had early access inside the room via a trapdoor. The killer can enter the room through the ceiling or below. There's a lot of possibilities!
-Kinzo is the obviously the most suspicious of them all so there is nothing wrong with narrowing the suspects down to him.
-The killer doesn't HAVE to be one.
-Beatrice might be a persona someone brainwashes himself with so the epitaph gets carried on.
-The brat Maria is POSSESSED. by Beatrice XD

More BS-talk from me regarding the butterfly! XD Because I like to think out of the box.
-It's a unique butterfly of Rokkenjima that emits some type of drug and pollutes the mind. Or has been prowling around plants that has the same effects.
-George Ushiromiya is twisted.
-Natsuhi is twisted. Might be working with Kinzo.
-Genji is an accomplice.
-The killer of the 6 and the killer of the 2 might not be the same person/people.

To end my speech: I love Kanon. He's a good furniture. Any reason behind that way of thinking?

Marion

2009-07-18, 14:29

As far as furniture goes it's explained that the servants believe themselves to be furniture, only living to serve the Ushiromiya family. Only Genji, Kanon and Shannon think of themselves this way - Gohda and Kumasawa up to this point in the VN never talked about themselves as furniture.

Jan-Poo

2009-07-18, 15:11

By the way the episode ended at the evening of October 5th right? The happenings only happened between October 4th and 5th according to the epitaph thread. Are the killings gonna happen every hour now??

I don't know the exact time (I never pay attention to the clock °°; ) but yes it's around evening.
Supposedly the first six were murdered after midnight so October 5. You can get it from the the fact Nanjo said they were dead since about six hours. A lot of time passed since that and the second crime.

Karlson

2009-07-18, 15:42

First I'd like to thank you Gnark for that link because apparently that seal on the shed door is suppose to do somewhat the same thing as the seal we saw in this episode.

I've been thinking about the seals and whether they work or not and this is another reason why I find this mystery so fascinating. The idea of them actually working is really silly but yet we can't really just cast them not working aside, otherwise we're just flat out admitting the killer is one of servants. Remember think back to the part with the one key that opens the shed and to what Eva said "normally, the family doesn't go into the servant's room." That means everyone outside of the servants is very unfamiliar with where everything is kept and what key opens what. So otherwise throwing the bodies in the shed either requires someone who knows all that or requires that particular seal on the shed door working or requires the shed door not even being locked to begin with (highly doubt that tho).

However that's not to say I think the all seals actually work. Why is that? Look up the scorpion symbol (there's only one of them) in that link by Gnark. I won't say what it does here but it's not just a magic repellant. The description for it pretty much would completely aim the suspicion all on Natsuhi (especially after realizing Battler lost the other one). So like with the servants (if you don't beileve the seals work), if you do believe they all work then it's like flat out admitting Natsuhi is the killer.

So what exactly are we supposed to believe here? I think only some/one of them worked while the other(s) didn't. The one(s) that did work was/were written by a witch, the one(s) that didn't was/were written by a normal human. I don't think any normal human on this island can make these seals work. Could it have been Beatrice? I'm not sure, her "true form" seems to indicate that it's not her. Maria? Possibly, hell wasn't there quite a bit of speculation way back pages ago the idea of Maria being a witch? Perhaps that could be the role she plays in all this...

-The killer of the 6 and the killer of the 2 might not be the same person/people.

That may actually be true. There isn't really much backing it up at this current time but nothing really dissapproves that theory either.

plzd0ntkeelme

2009-07-18, 17:24

First I'd like to thank you Gnark for that link because apparently that seal on the shed door is suppose to do somewhat the same thing as the seal we saw in this episode.

I've been thinking about the seals and whether they work or not and this is another reason why I find this mystery so fascinating. The idea of them actually working is really silly but yet we can't really just cast them not working aside, otherwise we're just flat out admitting the killer is one of servants. Remember think back to the part with the one key that opens the shed and to what Eva said "normally, the family doesn't go into the servant's room." That means everyone outside of the servants is very unfamiliar with where everything is kept and what key opens what. So otherwise throwing the bodies in the shed either requires someone who knows all that or requires that particular seal on the shed door working or requires the shed door not even being locked to begin with (highly doubt that tho).

However that's not to say I think the all seals actually work. Why is that? Look up the scorpion symbol (there's only one of them) in that link by Gnark. I won't say what it does here but it's not just a magic repellant. The description for it pretty much would completely aim the suspicion all on Natsuhi (especially after realizing Battler lost the other one). So like with the servants (if you don't beileve the seals work), if you do believe they all work then it's like flat out admitting Natsuhi is the killer.

So what exactly are we supposed to believe here? I think only some/one of them worked while the other(s) didn't. The one(s) that did work was/were written by a witch, the one(s) that didn't was/were written by a normal human. I don't think any normal human on this island can make these seals work. Could it have been Beatrice? I'm not sure, her "true form" seems to indicate that it's not her. Maria? Possibly, hell wasn't there quite a bit of speculation way back pages ago the idea of Maria being a witch? Perhaps that could be the role she plays in all this...

That may actually be true. There isn't really much backing it up at this current time but nothing really dissapproves that theory either.

I think someone already mentions about the problem with assuming the seal works. The seal at the Eva/Hideyoshi's door is supposed to be to unlock any locks. Yet the seal appears after the murder is already carried out. If the seal truly works, the killer would draw it upon entering the room then finish the job. With the timing of the seal being drawn, the killer's blatantly just drawing it to imply supernatural murder.

orion

2009-07-18, 19:03

How fast can someone take a door off its hinges and replace it with a new one? If there was a duplicate door in the next room with the drawings on it, then it can be replaced fast without notice.

I agree that the killer was already in the room under the bed probably and might still be there. It's doubtful that both Kanon and the lady are going to stay to watch dead bodies. When they leave in shock and fright, the killer exists the scene.

Also, the door was left ajar for Kanon to cut the chain. Wouldn't it have been more discrete to shut the door? If it's not locked, then it doesn't matter if the door is closed. It's like someone wanted to leave the impression that the chain is in place.

Also, there's not enough blood from Hideyoshi. Eva is definitely a "fresh" stab. The bath water should be red. People normally don't take a bath and a shower at the same time so maybe the bath was used to get rid of some evidence. Hideyoshi's wound might have taken place after he died and he was placed in the bathtub. Maybe he was poisoned first, head wound second and then placed in bath.

Maybe someone is sprinkling ricin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricin) on the food or using botulin toxin (http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/285/8/1059) or sarin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin).

chounokoe

2009-07-18, 19:20

How fast can someone take a door off its hinges and replace it with a new one? If there was a duplicate door in the next room with the drawings on it, then it can be replaced fast without notice.

It's not so hard to do that, but I think this theory leaves 2 things out of the picture (I thought of it myself at first).
1. The only thing that could be done is to exchange the doors from the inside, that would mean, the killer would have had to take a door with him to the crime scene.
The hinges of such western doors are mostly on the side they open to (at least I only know that mechanism).
2. The original door would have to be disposed of as quickly as possible. It wouldn't look very supernatural if they found an unhinged door in Eva's and Hideyoshi's room along with their corpses.
I can't think of any quick solution to do that. Of course the trapdoor would remain, but what use would then be the additional door...apart from having the seal already attached.

Oh and another problem that I thought up, even though it's more minor...the killer would have to produce a door, that is an exact replica of the original door...if not I think the servants at least should notice.

Karlson

2009-07-18, 19:41

I think someone already mentions about the problem with assuming the seal works. The seal at the Eva/Hideyoshi's door is supposed to be to unlock any locks. Yet the seal appears after the murder is already carried out. If the seal truly works, the killer would draw it upon entering the room then finish the job. With the timing of the seal being drawn, the killer's blatantly just drawing it to imply supernatural murder.

That's why I think some seals might've worked while others didn't. There's too many inconsistencies to believe the seal here in this second twilight actually worked. My problem is however when I apply the idea of the seals not working...the first twilight counters my theory.

Let's assume the seal on the shed door doesn't work here. That would mean the only way to open that shed is through the one key in the servant's room. And that place is only familiar to the servants; The family is never usually allowed in there. I'm not sure if it's locked and only accessable to the servants (didn't seem to show that in the anime), however as Battler said the killer of the first twilight had to know the mansion damn well if they had used that key, and that kind of evidence would directly point towards the servants.

This is the exact opposite of what the second twilight has implied where the most likely possiblity of what happened completely clears the servants of any suspicion, unless there was some freakish reason why Eva and Hideyoshi were alive and just not responding to Genji.

So even when I apply the idea of both the seals in each twilight not working, the first and second twilight contradict one another. This is where my confusion is coming from. It's why I also think Mei19 could be right. The killer of the first twilight could be different from the killer of this twilight. One might be among the remaining servants, while the other one might be within the family.

Edit: Probably would be wise for me to say the seal found in the first twilight does open locks too.

orion

2009-07-18, 20:16

It's not so hard to do that, but I think this theory leaves 2 things out of the picture (I thought of it myself at first).
1. The only thing that could be done is to exchange the doors from the inside, that would mean, the killer would have had to take a door with him to the crime scene.
The hinges of such western doors are mostly on the side they open to (at least I only know that mechanism).
2. The original door would have to be disposed of as quickly as possible. It wouldn't look very supernatural if they found an unhinged door in Eva's and Hideyoshi's room along with their corpses.
I can't think of any quick solution to do that. Of course the trapdoor would remain, but what use would then be the additional door...apart from having the seal already attached.

Oh and another problem that I thought up, even though it's more minor...the killer would have to produce a door, that is an exact replica of the original door...if not I think the servants at least should notice.

It's not too hard to produce spare doors. They would need to have some in storage as they are on an island. The old door could be placed in an unused room close by or underneath the bed. Their bedroom contains 2 beds. The doors on the rooms prob are all alike.

Or maybe thermochromic paint (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermochromism) was used. Clear to red when a heat source is applied. That would work for all the doors that were marked so far. And it would mean no door switching.

Ithekro

2009-07-18, 20:27

There is still a problem changing the door. You still have to get the chain on from the inside of the room. The hinges can only be gotten to from the outside of the door with the door open.

While you could be on the inside and undo the chain and open the door for removal, With the chain on you can't get to the hinges to remove the door. And even if you replace the door you still have to put the chain back in place...

...unless the chain is already detached (or cut with that sleave over it) and it just looks like it is in place when Kanon comes back. I don't recall him trying to open the door the second time. He just reached in and cut the chain, then opened the door. That doesn't seem likely since there was tension on the chain for it to be cut, but then those kinds of cutters might just cut that good.

orion

2009-07-18, 20:39

chounokoe

2009-07-18, 20:48

It's not too hard to produce spare doors. They would need to have some in storage as they are on an island. The old door could be placed in an unused room close by or underneath the bed. Their bedroom contains 2 beds. The doors on the rooms prob are all alike.

Or maybe thermochromic paint (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermochromism) was used. Clear to red when a heat source is applied. That would work for all the doors that were marked so far. And it would mean no door switching.

I don't know about you, but I think it is highly unusual to have SPARE doors at your house. Even if it is a mansion I think most of the furniture and the house itself is build on tradition and I highly doubt they keep such things in masses.
To storage the door in another room the person would either have to be in posession of a master key (I don't think it has yet been stated how many there are) or in posession of the key to that exact room. I also imagine that Eva's and Hideyoshi's room is in a guest wing of the mansion, so the person would have to have good knowledge of which room is 'unused'.

Thermocromic Paint is also a neat idea, problem is, as already stated, you would have to apply a source of either heat or could to actually get the effect and that temperature would have to stay stable.
Of course we cannot say for sure that Ryukishi would know this fact, but I think it is too vague to actually hold up as a point in a real debate regarding how this was painted.
Underneath the bed would also be a rather foolish attempt to hide it, because that's of course one of the places where you would look at first after entering a crime scene...added to the fact that most guest-beds in western-style mansions aren't build so that you can fit a wooden door of that size under them.
And the doors would probably be alike, but it would imply that before that, there was another door with the seal painted already on it.

I know where you are getting at and with time it would be an intricate and intelligent plan...but not in an amount of maybe at most 10-15 minutes (depending on how large the distance to the kitchen might be).

Assuming there are two or more killers of course, one could have given the other a sign to paint the seal on the door as soon as the door had been opened and then go into hiding again.

Shouldn't Genji had been able to see something was wrong in the room from his vantage point?

Something wrong like, there are corpses inside?
No, not at all I think. The bathroom is not to be seen or reached from the door and the bed Eva is lying on is in a blind spot in a corner of the room, that you are unable to see from the door, because the wall in front of it blocks the view.

lubczyk

2009-07-18, 20:56

It's been 3 episodes an already like 7 people have died. With 11 people left, I can this turning Higurashi-like in that there are going to be lots of resets.

Ithekro

2009-07-18, 21:01

What a minute. Are there any moisture sensitive paints? Like say it can be applied then dissapears, then will reappear with added humidity? The humidity of the house should be fairly constant, but the shower has been on in that room for some time. The door is opened and the moisture reacts with the paint to reveal the seal. Might also be enough to change the temperature inside the room.

Still doesn't explain the chain and where the murderer is, but could explain the seal on the door if no one painted it after the servants left...assuming the head servant didn't do it himself after Kanon left.

(8 people are dead, 10 remain...that we know about anyway)
One spouse of an heir.
Kinzo himself (maybe...he could be dead as well since no one knows where he is)
The four cousins (heirs probably before the spouse when Kinzo dies, minus the letter)
The Doctor
The head servant
The junior servant
The old lady/servant
.
.
.
and Beatrice?

orion

2009-07-18, 21:02

I don't know about you, but I think it is highly unusual to have SPARE doors at your house. Even if it is a mansion I think most of the furniture and the house itself is build on tradition and I highly doubt they keep such things in masses.
To storage the door in another room the person would either have to be in posession of a master key (I don't think it has yet been stated how many there are) or in posession of the key to that exact room. I also imagine that Eva's and Hideyoshi's room is in a guest wing of the mansion, so the person would have to have good knowledge of which room is 'unused'.

Thermocromic Paint is also a neat idea, problem is, as already stated, you would have to apply a source of either heat or could to actually get the effect and that temperature would have to stay stable.
Of course we cannot say for sure that Ryukishi would know this fact, but I think it is too vague to actually hold up as a point in a real debate regarding how this was painted.
Underneath the bed would also be a rather foolish attempt to hide it, because that's of course one of the places where you would look at first after entering a crime scene...added to the fact that most guest-beds in western-style mansions aren't build so that you can fit a wooden door of that size under them.
And the doors would probably be alike, but it would imply that before that, there was another door with the seal painted already on it.

I know where you are getting at and with time it would be an intricate and intelligent plan...but not in an amount of maybe at most 10-15 minutes (depending on how large the distance to the kitchen might be).

Assuming there are two or more killers of course, one could have given the other a sign to paint the seal on the door as soon as the door had been opened and then go into hiding again.

Something wrong like, there are corpses inside?
No, not at all I think. The bathroom is not to be seen or reached from the door and the bed Eva is lying on is in a blind spot in a corner of the room, that you are unable to see from the door, because the wall in front of it blocks the view.

Thermochromic paint can be activated with just your hands (http://www.paintwithpearl.com/colorchangestore.htm?gclid=CNOq_pzP4JsCFRyfnAodx3t p_g) in some cases. So you dont' really have to be complex on the heat source. This whole train of thought is that it's premeditated so the killer had it all planned from the start to coincide with the gathering. (The head of the household only has 3 months left to live.) The paint is already on all the doors and just needs to be activated at the proper time. Eva's bed can be seen from our view of the door that means that Genji could possibly see more if he turned his head but he made no attempt to do so.

And the killer is still in the room when they entered. No attempt to search the room was done so far. So if people leave that room before the search team arrives, then the killer is going to exit conveniently.

plzd0ntkeelme

2009-07-18, 21:04

That's why I think some seals might've worked while others didn't. There's too many inconsistencies to believe the seal here in this second twilight actually worked. My problem is however when I apply the idea of the seals not working...the first twilight counters my theory.

Let's assume the seal on the shed door doesn't work here. That would mean the only way to open that shed is through the one key in the servant's room. And that place is only familiar to the servants; The family is never usually allowed in there. I'm not sure if it's locked and only accessable to the servants (didn't seem to show that in the anime), however as Battler said the killer of the first twilight had to know the mansion damn well if they had used that key, and that kind of evidence would directly point towards the servants.

This is the exact opposite of what the second twilight has implied where the most likely possiblity of what happened completely clears the servants of any suspicion, unless there was some freakish reason why Eva and Hideyoshi were alive and just not responding to Genji.

So even when I apply the idea of both the seals in each twilight not working, the first and second twilight contradict one another. This is where my confusion is coming from. It's why I also think Mei19 could be right. The killer of the first twilight could be different from the killer of this twilight. One might be among the remaining servants, while the other one might be within the family.

Edit: Probably would be wise for me to say the seal found in the first twilight does open locks too.

I think the whole point of the "Battler with Eva on the stairs" scene is about how someone outside of the servants might've also known the house quite well. Eva claimed how the siblings do not go to servants' rooms, but Battler claimed that the killer use this situation by returning the key to put suspicion on the servants. Basically saying the killer knows the house well but he's not one of the servants. I also find it odd that Battler, by just opening the container, he can immediately find the key to the shed among hundred other keys in there. Maybe there is some marking or writing that implies it's a key to the shed.

Talk about odd, there is also Natsuhi who apparently went to get Kinzo's shotgun alone despite knowing the murderer(s) might be among them. She's gotta be more than brave to do that.

plzd0ntkeelme

2009-07-18, 21:06

Thermochromic paint can be activated with just your hands (http://www.paintwithpearl.com/colorchangestore.htm?gclid=CNOq_pzP4JsCFRyfnAodx3t p_g) in some cases. So you dont' really have to be complex on the heat source. This whole train of thought is that it's premeditated so the killer had it all planned from the start to coincide with the gathering. The paint is already on all the doors and just needs to be activated at the proper time. Eva's bed can be seen from our view of the door that means that Genji could possibly see more if he turned his head but he made no attempt to do so.

And the killer is still in the room when they entered. No attempt to search the room was done so far. So if people leave that room before the search team arrives, then the killer is going to exit conveniently.

If by hands, then wouldn't Genji knocking on the door activate it?

orion

2009-07-18, 21:14

Depends on the temp needed to activate the paint and his hand placement relative to the pattern.

Natsuhi's door had hand patterns on them.

Ithekro

2009-07-18, 21:14

chounokoe

2009-07-18, 21:17

The head of the household only has 3 months left to live.

Well Kinzou is a tough bastard, he has 3 months left for about a year.

orion

2009-07-19, 00:01

It takes a little time to warm up things like that. Temperature sentative items don't change by being hit, but when heat is applied. The knocking on a door would not generate enough heat (he also might have missed the actual painted areas).

But what about using a blow dryer? Those things heat up pretty fast. Eva's got to have one with her long hair.

If the killer is underneath the bed in the room the whole time, he has no need to worry about the chain. He unchains the door, uses the blow dryer on the door. Replaces the chain. Hides back underneath the bed. Waits for room to empty and leaves.

Kanon didn't touch the door so he wouldn't know if it was warm. The door was left ajar. He just cut the chain and pushed the door open.

-------

So what do you guys think about Hideyoshi's eyes at 21:35-21:39? They look assymetrically placed to me. Eva's eyes are symmetrically placed after the head stab.

If this was an acute organophosphate poisoning (http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/167726-overview), then the bath and shower would hide the elevated body temp and the other stuff such as tearing, salivating, diarrhea...

Edit: And for that storage shed door how about something like this.. photosensitive paint with temp control (http://www.chemyq.com/patentfmen/pt51/508386_E7906.htm)...

risingstar3110

2009-07-19, 02:38

Actually the problem with whole "door switching" and "thermochromic paint" is:
- what if someone is guarding outside the door when Kanon go get the chain cutter....?
- what if some1 is coming nearby and rush to the scene when Genji or Kanon run pass by him?
- what if Genji try to knock the door off (and somehow he successes)

It's truth that the 4 adults live in the main mansion was killed, but how can the culprit knows for sure that Batter will not be nearby, investigating his parents (step-mother) room? Maria could be in her sensitive mode and lay around in his mother room during that time... There are so many variables that may risk the killer's identity.....
Can the culprit silent the guard (Maria for example) without proving the epitaph was wrong?

...and what is that seal for? Assume human killed those two, and the seal is to point the murder at Beatrice. Would the culprit risk that much just to do something extra? Because a murder in locked room and a sealed letter should be enough, isn't it?

Now let think outside the box a bit....
What if Eva and Hideyoshi was the one who drew that paint? They didn't know about the murder, so at worst they would only have to apologise for their prank. If it's so then:
- George would be the only one they can trust enough to be tricked by him into their own deaths. We needs everyone alibi during that scene to knows if this's possible
- Eva or Hideyoshi killed the other, before the culprit finish him/her off (i think Hideyoshi is more likely because maybe he wasn't taking a bath but change out his blood-stain clothes). In this case, likely the culprit is Genji, because with Kanon off, Genji can ensure no1 around to tell him to open the door

Alaya

2009-07-19, 04:21

Let's assume the seal on the shed door doesn't work here. That would mean the only way to open that shed is through the one key in the servant's room. And that place is only familiar to the servants; The family is never usually allowed in there. I'm not sure if it's locked and only accessable to the servants (didn't seem to show that in the anime), however as Battler said the killer of the first twilight had to know the mansion damn well if they had used that key, and that kind of evidence would directly point towards the servants.

I think we have to clarify this a little bit. It's not that the family are not allowed in there, rather they choose not to go in there.

However, this is still not a prove that no member of the family has ever gone into the servant room before. Even though you can't find a proof that the family member have gone into the servant room, you cannot disprove the possibility of the someone went in there without leaving traces behind.

Ithekro

2009-07-19, 04:42

Again we have a basic problem like we had last week...we only have information up to when the bodies were discovered...nothing else. Though this time we have a locked room and what looks like murder weapons. To use, there is no way the murder could have escaped the room and leave the room locked. There is no way these two killed each other and died seperated like they did. Especially after we get a scene with them being close not long before.

What do we know?

We know there are two dead people in the room.

We know they have a metal stake in each of their foreheads.

We can assume the stakes are the murder weapons, but this could be false and just used to make it look like they were killed with these weapons.

We know the room was locked and had a chain in place before the servents arrived.

We know there is a envelope that was stuck halfway under the door to the room before the servents tried to open the door.

We know that Kanon cuts the chain before he discovers the bodies. He also has a witness.

We know the seal was not on the door when the servents first came to the room, but it was there when Kanon returned. (or it was not
visible at that time)

What don't we know?

Where Genji is or what he did after he sent Kanon away.

If Eva and her husband were dead when Kanon and Genji arrived the first time...though it seems likely they were.

Where the murderer is. (well, yeah)

Who the murderer is (no kidding, really?).

If the murderer is not in the room...how did that person get out of a locked room and still leave it locked?

Where Kinzo is.

Where anyone else was at the time of the murder. (though this will likely be filled in next week since everyone seemed to be staying in at least pairs).

If this murder and the murder of the other six is related or if it is a seperate killing with a different motive and killer.

What is Beatrice?

Gnark

2009-07-19, 08:09

I did a Beatrice search on Wikipedia for the fun of it and found that there's a psychedelic drug called Beatrice, it could answer a lot of questions :P but I doubt this is the case.

chounokoe

2009-07-19, 08:11

But what about using a blow dryer? Those things heat up pretty fast. Eva's got to have one with her long hair.

If the killer is underneath the bed in the room the whole time, he has no need to worry about the chain. He unchains the door, uses the blow dryer on the door. Replaces the chain. Hides back underneath the bed. Waits for room to empty and leaves.

Kanon didn't touch the door so he wouldn't know if it was warm. The door was left ajar. He just cut the chain and pushed the door open.

-------

So what do you guys think about Hideyoshi's eyes at 21:35-21:39? They look assymetrically placed to me. Eva's eyes are symmetrically placed after the head stab.

If this was an acute organophosphate poisoning (http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/167726-overview), then the bath and shower would hide the elevated body temp and the other stuff such as tearing, salivating, diarrhea...

Edit: And for that storage shed door how about something like this.. photosensitive paint with temp control (http://www.chemyq.com/patentfmen/pt51/508386_E7906.htm)...

For the blow dryer part you would have to proof that there is a wall outlet near the door, as long as there isn't it would be difficult to actually get it to work in 1986.

To know if it is possible to leave the room in a quiet moment, you first have to see IF Kanon and Kumasawa leave the room again, it is not yet known, so your arguing with assumptions...of course we're always just assuming before everything is known in a mystery, but I just want to point it out to you, that you would have to keep the options in mind.

To the paint for temperature control, the application date is in 2003, I find it highly unlikely that someone inside the house got his hands on such a paint 17 years before an actual application was filed and 18 years before it hit the market.
It IS an interesting and tempting idea, but it is a bit too speculative to disregard the temporal circumstances completely.

Now let think outside the box a bit....
What if Eva and Hideyoshi was the one who drew that paint? They didn't know about the murder, so at worst they would only have to apologise for their prank. If it's so then:
- George would be the only one they can trust enough to be tricked by him into their own deaths. We needs everyone alibi during that scene to knows if this's possible
- Eva or Hideyoshi killed the other, before the culprit finish him/her off (i think Hideyoshi is more likely because maybe he wasn't taking a bath but change out his blood-stain clothes). In this case, likely the culprit is Genji, because with Kanon off, Genji can ensure no1 around to tell him to open the door

Eva OR Hideyoshi to be the murderer is of course an option. But I only want to point some things out, that I think might again start discussion.
If they/one of them drew the seal on the door they/(s)he would have to be alive at the point when Genji opened the door, if that can be proven it is very likely to be that, YES.
BUT, for one to kill the other they would still have to have those murderweapons in store. Of course this is not impossible if they want to stage 'Beatrice commiting murder', still the murderer that kills the respective other of the pair would have to think of actually using that same murderweapon.

It is of course not unlikely, it is just again, difficult to prove.
Well again many things will be seen in a different light once we hit the next episode, but still I think this is really interesting.

risingstar3110

2009-07-19, 09:04

Eva OR Hideyoshi to be the murderer is of course an option. But I only want to point some things out, that I think might again start discussion.
If they/one of them drew the seal on the door they/(s)he would have to be alive at the point when Genji opened the door, if that can be proven it is very likely to be that, YES.
BUT, for one to kill the other they would still have to have those murderweapons in store. Of course this is not impossible if they want to stage 'Beatrice commiting murder', still the murderer that kills the respective other of the pair would have to think of actually using that same murderweapon.

It is of course not unlikely, it is just again, difficult to prove.
Well again many things will be seen in a different light once we hit the next episode, but still I think this is really interesting.
If , for example Hideyoshi want to kill Eva, and he works with (let's say...) Genji to do so, then Genji could be the one who provide the weapon to Hideyoshi , and use a similar tool to kill Hideyoshi.....
He even can provide a certain drug for Hideyoshi to kill Eva, and use the ice pick to kill Hideyoshi, and stick another ice pick into Eva's forehead as a decoy (so every would assume both was killed by the same method......)

It's all assumption, but the problem would be...."why Hideyoshi do so?". It could be as simple as so all Kinzo's children would be dead and all the fortune would be shared equally to Hideyoshi and Natsuhi (Genji can make up stories about how he secretly in love with Natsuhi or respect her as the household figure to trick Hideyoshi). It could have more deep reasons that is not yet exposed

This option mainly to explain how could Eva be killed if she have such skillful martial art.... and explain why it have to be obvious that both of them died in the same way, (so it looks like there is only 1 single culprit...)

orion

2009-07-19, 09:11

To the paint for temperature control, the application date is in 2003, I find it highly unlikely that someone inside the house got his hands on such a paint 17 years before an actual application was filed and 18 years before it hit the market.
It IS an interesting and tempting idea, but it is a bit too speculative to disregard the temporal circumstances completely.

This is fiction. The author can introduce whatever elements he wants. My search turned up only 1 patent. There could be earlier patents. Also, the game was introduced in 2007.

All those who saw Beatrice (the servants, Maria, even Kinzo) could be victims of ergotism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergotism). It could also be an alternate explanation for Natsuhi's medical problems that we've seen so far. (I'm assuming that the Beatrice sightings only occur on the island.)

If the murderer is not in the room...how did that person get out of a locked room and still leave it locked?

I remember a movie using a mirror and magnets to get that type of lock off and on.

Alaya

2009-07-19, 09:20

This is fiction. The author can introduce whatever elements he wants. My search turned up only 1 patent. There could be earlier patents. Also, the game was introduced in 2007.

He can do anything he like if the setting is not realistic. Unless you write a sci-fi or fantasy story, then you have to obey the rule of that certain that things could or could not exit in that time. But for mystery, you cannot throw anything you like as you want.

So for mystery story like Umineko then it would be expect that it would be in accordant to what is possible during the time the story set in.

Jan-Poo

2009-07-19, 09:26

I remember a movie using a mirror and magnets to get that type of lock off and on.

It depends on how good was the chain system designed. The ones that are well made can only be opened when door is completely closed, thus preventing that trick you mention

orion

2009-07-19, 09:30

He can do anything he like if the setting is not realistic. Unless you write a sci-fi or fantasy story, then you have to obey the rule of that certain that things could or could not exit in that time. But for mystery, you cannot throw anything you like as you want.

So for mystery story like Umineko then it would be expect that it would be in accordant to what is possible during the time the story set in.

The Higurashi cameo on TV negated that assumption. Also game players in 2007 won't know a thing about 1980's technology. Most of them weren't even born yet so their frame of reference is off. But we'll see as the story progresses.

Apparently, the technology has been around since the 1970s' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermochromism) for ink and dyes.

It depends on how good was the chain system designed. The ones that are well made can only be opened when door is completely closed, thus preventing that trick you mention

No, the metal part was exposed at the end and it contained a groove in the center. The chain part was covered with fabric. (19:34) If it's all premeditated, then the person had time to practice before killing them off.

risingstar3110

2009-07-19, 09:38

It depends on how good was the chain system designed. The ones that are well made can only be opened when door is completely closed, thus preventing that trick you mention
There is that trick of letting Genji open the door 1st. Cut the chain from inside. Temporally reconnect the chain from outside the door(hook the cut chain together and covered with the leather/fabric part) and let it be cut by Kanon again later. If no1 investigate the chain after cut it, then that trick can work

Alaya

2009-07-19, 09:42

orion

2009-07-19, 10:02

The blue cover is on the chain at 21:17. I assumed that was fabric.

Also, no amount of martial arts skills is going to save you if the poison is alreading taking effect. It could be that Eva did not receive the same amount that Hideyoshi did and was able to show terror at her demise and demonstrate arm movement.

Alaya

2009-07-19, 10:23

The Higurashi cameo on TV negated that assumption. Also game players in 2007 won't know a thing about 1980's technology. Most of them weren't even born yet so their frame of reference is off. But we'll see as the story progresses.

That does not necessary. First you have no prove that it's Higurashi on TV. We assume it's higurashi because the cast look similar to Higurashi but it's could be totally wrong. The fact that the casts does look like Higurashi's casts doesn't prove that it is Higurashi.

Even it's Higurashi, it's still valid that the writer can't just throw anything in. If the cameo does not alter the plot in some ways, then it has no effect to the story nor can be a prove that the writer can throw anything in.

Apparently, the technology has been around since the 1970s' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermochromism) for ink and dyes.

This is a better argument than the authors can write anything to me :P. If you use this argument then I would have to agree that it's possible.

chounokoe

2009-07-19, 10:39

Apparently, the technology has been around since the 1970s' for ink and dyes.

I would also agree that, if it was already around in the 1970's then it is a valid point.
The author being able to do anything he pleases is not such a point.

I have to admit that Ryukishi's intertextuality was always a bit off, in the VN he always adresses a show named Card Master Sakura, a refernce to the TV-adaption of CLAMP's Card Captor Sakura, which was not aired before 1998 (even the manga was only started in '96). BUT if we were to assume that he can do anything he pleases to do, unconnected to the actual time, we could also assume that there is a gigantic illusion-machine based on a black-hole producing machinery in a hidden laboratory beneath the mansion...it would be possible, but would also kill the whole point of a mystery.

Jan-Poo

2009-07-19, 10:52

I wouldn't mind too much about those thing. They are called "homages" or fanservice (the extended meaning). Using them as a basis to speculate time travels or paradox is the same as speculating about Battler being a mutant or an alien because the face he makes in his perverted mode is not possible by human means.

Shadow Kira01

2009-07-19, 16:57

When I first saw the anime, I kept on getting the impression that the game had borrowed some ideas off of the original Persona as that there are golden butterflies and also high-ranking demons, as well as those magical circles which resemble the logo itself.

I get the feeling that there will most likely be one or two survivors by the end of the series as that they are getting killed at a rather quick rate. Honestly, if I hadn't checked the list of cast and staff, I would get the impression that this is another yandere anime like the Higurashi series in which I suspect Maria-chan as the killer. However, this is definitely not the case, even though she does look rather suspicious, not mentioning that her facial expressions are exactly that of the female main characters of the Higurashi series during their happy moments with the poor un-suspecting protagonist. One way or the other, I have decided to continue watching the anime as that it is one of the better ones of this season. Currently, I like 3 series including this one. Funny thing is that these series I like aren't very popular either.

Goilveig

2009-07-19, 23:23

There is that trick of letting Genji open the door 1st. Cut the chain from inside. Temporally reconnect the chain from outside the door(hook the cut chain together and covered with the leather/fabric part) and let it be cut by Kanon again later. If no1 investigate the chain after cut it, then that trick can work

It would be a bit dangerous. You'd have to get rid of the broken piece of chain (the chain in between where you cut and where Kanon cut -- if anyone saw it they would be deeply suspicious) and hope nobody notices the chain fragments are shorter than they should be.

That said, of course it's still possible, and if the alternative is hiding under the bed, it may be safer. Of course given how Kanon and Kumasawa acted (running into the bathroom to see Hideyoshi) the killer would have had time to get out from under the bed and out of the room.

Goilveig

2009-07-19, 23:42

If , for example Hideyoshi want to kill Eva, and he works with (let's say...) Genji to do so, then Genji could be the one who provide the weapon to Hideyoshi , and use a similar tool to kill Hideyoshi.....
He even can provide a certain drug for Hideyoshi to kill Eva, and use the ice pick to kill Hideyoshi, and stick another ice pick into Eva's forehead as a decoy (so every would assume both was killed by the same method......)

It's all assumption, but the problem would be...."why Hideyoshi do so?". It could be as simple as so all Kinzo's children would be dead and all the fortune would be shared equally to Hideyoshi and Natsuhi (Genji can make up stories about how he secretly in love with Natsuhi or respect her as the household figure to trick Hideyoshi).

The anime never fully went over the family's ranking system (they did allude to it in the 'You're not permitted to wear the One-Winged Eagle' scene) but basically all those who are not blood relatives of Kinzo rank below those who are. With all of Kinzo's children dead, Jessica (as the eldest child of Kinzo's eldest child) would inherit.

risingstar3110

2009-07-19, 23:59

The anime never fully went over the family's ranking system (they did allude to it in the 'You're not permitted to wear the One-Winged Eagle' scene) but basically all those who are not blood relatives of Kinzo rank below those who are. With all of Kinzo's children dead, Jessica (as the eldest child of Kinzo's eldest child) would inherit.
You are right, i didn't know about that when put up that assumption.....
But if Jessica also die or incapable of managing such fortune or marry into another family, then George would still get everything....

Marion

2009-07-20, 00:10

You are right, i didn't know about that when put up that assumption.....
But if Jessica also die or incapable of managing such fortune or marry into another family, then George would still get everything....
It's explained in the VN that Jessica would only inherit when she got married and even then her husband would become the head of the family, not herself.

The anime doesn't explain it, but Kinzo is a chauvinistic bastard. He basically believes women are just borrowed wombs for children.

Ithekro

2009-07-20, 01:21

Those things are suggested in dialogue and visual references. Eva and Kinzo's talk with Natsuhi suggest the whole chauvinistic "borrowed womb" idea, while the family seated at the dining room table suggests the order of things without it having to be told. You can see how they are seated. Kinzon's children at one end of the table, their children next to them in a section, then the Doctor and the spouses at the other end of the table. The end seats are empty (traditional places for th lord and lady of a household). The seating arrangement is rather traditional European royal dining style, or at least looks that way to me.

Kitsu

2009-07-20, 06:58

It's explained in the VN that Jessica would only inherit when she got married and even then her husband would become the head of the family, not herself

Even unmarried she would most likely inherit, but if she was married her husband would take the seat of the head

Jan-Poo

2009-07-20, 07:06

frankly I do not trust 100% that sentence. It is Battler that said that during a narrative monologue, and there are other things he said that aren't 100% true or that can be misinterpreted.

MeoTwister5

2009-07-20, 07:49

Do note however that up until this point in the anime Kinzo has never stated yet his criteria for the head, even with his patriarchal views on family. It is still suggested that even Krauss doesn;t know anything about Kinzo's plans. There may still be other factors for selection of the Ushiromiya successor.

maximilianjenus

2009-07-20, 13:13

and if kinzo does not leave a will, legally speaking who gets the inheritance ?

Actually the problem with whole "door switching" and "thermochromic paint" is:
- what if someone is guarding outside the door when Kanon go get the chain cutter....?
- what if some1 is coming nearby and rush to the scene when Genji or Kanon run pass by him?
- what if Genji try to knock the door off (and somehow he successes)

It's truth that the 4 adults live in the main mansion was killed, but how can the culprit knows for sure that Batter will not be nearby, investigating his parents (step-mother) room? Maria could be in her sensitive mode and lay around in his mother room during that time... There are so many variables that may risk the killer's identity.....
Can the culprit silent the guard (Maria for example) without proving the epitaph was wrong?

...and what is that seal for? Assume human killed those two, and the seal is to point the murder at Beatrice. Would the culprit risk that much just to do something extra? Because a murder in locked room and a sealed letter should be enough, isn't it?

Now let think outside the box a bit....
What if Eva and Hideyoshi was the one who drew that paint? They didn't know about the murder, so at worst they would only have to apologise for their prank. If it's so then:
- George would be the only one they can trust enough to be tricked by him into their own deaths. We needs everyone alibi during that scene to knows if this's possible
- Eva or Hideyoshi killed the other, before the culprit finish him/her off (i think Hideyoshi is more likely because maybe he wasn't taking a bath but change out his blood-stain clothes). In this case, likely the culprit is Genji, because with Kanon off, Genji can ensure no1 around to tell him to open the door

Another thinking outside the box, what if the killer did not care too much about painting the circle, but after the noticed that both servants let the room alone he desided that it was better for effect to open the door, paint the circle and chain the door again?

rogerpepitone

2009-07-20, 13:17

I would also agree that, if it was already around in the 1970's then it is a valid point.
The author being able to do anything he pleases is not such a point.

I have to admit that Ryukishi's intertextuality was always a bit off, in the VN he always adresses a show named Card Master Sakura, a refernce to the TV-adaption of CLAMP's Card Captor Sakura, which was not aired before 1998 (even the manga was only started in '96). BUT if we were to assume that he can do anything he pleases to do, unconnected to the actual time, we could also assume that there is a gigantic illusion-machine based on a black-hole producing machinery in a hidden laboratory beneath the mansion...it would be possible, but would also kill the whole point of a mystery.

As far as anachronisms wrt background details, I don't think it matters much. If there's an anachronism wrt something plot-relevant, I'd be rather upset.

As for the game itself, if you need to coin an Americanized name for the toy store due to a translation hitch, you should call it "Toys from the Future".

In the backgrounds, I've managed to spot a One-Piece poster, Pikachu, two boxes of Duel Master cards, a model from Gundam Wing, and an N64, all of which were made well after 1983. Not complaining, just thought it was amusing.

maximilianjenus

2009-07-20, 15:32

In the novel it is implied that krauss' "bussiness that are not doing well" are stuff that is doing well in the current times.

Ithekro

2009-07-20, 18:15

At this point we only have two painted seals and what looks like random marks on a door. This could be blood, it could be paint. If there will be other instances of this sort of things we might be able to get a pattern, or at least a substance to give a clue of how and when these where done.

If it is just paint, then the second seal had to be painted after the servants found Eva's room locked but before Kanon returned with the cutters. We can't tell if it dried quickly or not, bit the seal on the shed door didn't seem to be running in the rain. The first indication of paint (the hand marks which could be useful for fingerprints) looked dry on Natsuhi's door.

If it is blood...well someone is a sick bastard..but we can see that already from the murders. It would still need to be painted on after the murders are done, and in the case of Eva's room, done before Kanon returns with the cutters.

Tempurature sensitive paint is possible as the could react to the difference over time. However one wonders to what degree it reacts. Hot or cold? The first two are found in the morning when it would be cooler, possibly even indoors. The most recent one was found in the evening near dinner time, it would be cooling down, but would it be enough to switch between Kanon leaving and coming back with the cutters...with the room's door ajar?

Moisture senative paint maybe? That would handing Eva's door since the shower has been running for some time making the room humid compared to the hallway. The door is ajar so the moisture could to the door's face to change the color.
For the shed it is raining...high moisture content would keep the paint visable.
But what about Natsuhi's door? Is that also the same paint? Or is that some other paint..or even real blood? If it is the same paint....where did if get the moisture?

However in all instances Genji has been present. Could he have painted the doors? We don't know for sure yet what he did after sending Kanon away and we only have his word on how he found Natsuhi's door painted when he arrived. He and Kanon were the ones that found the shed painted that morning if I recall. Could be something to it...or he's the head servent, therefore it is in his job description to find things first....makes it look like "the butler did it".

Goilveig

2009-07-20, 21:13

In the novel it is implied that krauss' "bussiness that are not doing well" are stuff that is doing well in the current times.

They imply that he tends to go into a business a few years too early and chickens out rather than see it though.

Though I have to laugh at some of his predictions about real estate. While there would be a real estate bubble coming up for the next few years, in a little over four years from the story, the bubble burst and caused the "lost decade", where Japan's economy hit a ten year recession. So if Krauss was planning to make a killing on real estate, he'd better have been planning to get out soon.

Though now, I think he would probably have been better off investing in home security systems.

Luxa

2009-07-21, 16:20

and if kinzo does not leave a will, legally speaking who gets the inheritance ?

That's one of the questions I'm also interested in, even more as Eva said that after the death of her siblings she will inherit. Why are the children jumped over? Shouldn't Jessica, George, Maria each get one part and Battler and his still unnamed sister get half if all the parents are dead? (Supposing that Kinzo has no will and is dead.)

I've been also reading the Epitaph and the next part is this:
"At the third twilight, those who remain shall praise my honourable name on high." I have no idea but that the end of the third twilight everyone will be either believing in Beatrice or dead. (An ideal candidate for murder would be Battler, but I'm pretty sure he will be the last to stand. Or he dies and a reboot comes.)

Jan-Poo

2009-07-21, 18:12

Eva was probably talking about the headship of the family, which has certainly some privileges.
I'm not sure about the money distribution because that would require some knowledge about the japanese laws on the matter of inheritances. The concept of "Head of the family" is not something common on western societies, but there I guess it is important that one person will receive most of the family assets so to avoid dispersal of money goods and power, I'm not sure if that requires a will or if there are specific laws...

risingstar3110

2009-07-21, 22:07

The funny things of this thread is: because we expect the killer didn't do so for money. That's why anyone who have a motive to do so is not the final culprit xD

DesuX2

2009-07-23, 07:18

Well after Episode 4, but I'm really, really starting to think that there really is a 19th person on the island who has read one too many volumes of Detective Conan. Either Battler does a Conan at the end of the anime, and we find out that it really was as he predicted and the dead are not really dead. Every single suspicious character has already been eliminated, and if you flip the chessboard around, I'm sure the killer has a paedophillic streak, first contact is with Maria, and now he leaves Maria untouched and singing about rapeseed. I'd say he's just trying to take Maria home as I have no logical explanation for the latest episode.

MeoTwister5

2009-07-23, 07:25

Uh... how does flipping the chessboard over translate to having a pedo streak? Natsuhi's still alive, and the servants and Nanjo getting killed screams more of opportunity than than anything else. Flipping the board over has its limitations and can only get you so far.

nagare

2009-07-23, 13:00

Every single suspicious character has already been eliminated, and if you flip the chessboard around, I'm sure the killer has a paedophillic streak, first contact is with Maria, and now he leaves Maria untouched and singing about rapeseed. I'd say he's just trying to take Maria home as I have no logical explanation for the latest episode.

Ah, just to let you know that song about rapeseed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapeseed) is a very well known children rhyme in Japan. Also rapeseed is most likely a mistake.

蝶々

　　ちょうちょう　ちょうちょう。/ Butterfly, butterfly
　　菜の葉にとまれ。 / Stop on the green leaf*
　　菜の葉に飽いたら、桜にとまれ。 / If you get tired of the green leaf, stop on the cherry blossom
　　さくらの花の、さかゆる御代に、/ For the imperial reign of the cherry blossom**
　　とまれよ　遊べ、遊べよ　とまれ。 / Please stop and play; Please play and stop

It's a rhyme written back in the Meiji era.
The melody is based on "Lightly Row"

This japanese song took the melody and put other words to it.
The song is about a butterfly who stops on flowers.

* Nanoha can mean the flower called rapeseed but in this song, 菜の葉 means the more general green vegetable leafs.

** this is a reference to the Emperor of Japan
Note: this line is different in more current versions of this song.

What the song is about:
Butterfly stopping on the green leaf is symbolism it laying eggs for the caterpillar, and then when it grows up into a butterfly, stop on the cherry blossom (symbolizing life & the emperor) and play b/c you're safe under his guidance.

There's a second verse, Maria doesn't sing it (actually she doesn't sing the first line either - or at least no one heard her sing that line or the second verse). The second verse is kinda obscure as well.

Hers's some more info that may be helpful:
What's on Eva's/Hideoshi's door

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/1200/moon1f.jpg

The First Pentacle of the Moon.--This and the following serve to call forth and invoke the Spirits of the Moon; and it further serveth to open doors, in whatever way they may be fastened.

Editor's Note.--The Pentacle is a species of hieroglyphic representation of a door or gate. In the centre is written the Name IHVH. On the right hand are the Names IHV, IHVH, AL, and IHH. On the left hand are the Names of the Angels: Schioel, Vaol, Yashiel, and Vehiel. The versicle above the Names on either side is from Psalm cvii. 16:--'He hath broken the Gates of brass, and- smitten the bars of iron in sunder.'

The second page Battler finds in the envelop.

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/9624/3rdmars.jpg

The Third Pentacle of Mars.--It is of great value for exciting war, wrath, discord, and hostility; also for resisting enemies, and striking terror into rebellious Spirits; the Names of God the All Powerful are therein expressly marked.

Editor's Note.--The Letters of the Names Eloah and Shaddai. In the Centre is the great letter Vau, the signature of the Qabalistic Microprosopus. Around is the versicle from Psalm lxxvii. 13:--'Who is so great a God as our Elohim?'

jeroz

2009-07-23, 19:25

well, at least my question "how do you kill by gouging the knee" is answered in this episode.
in the case of no extra person, I have no idea what can cause the 3 adults to be killed like that, unless Maria took over the honour of plowing their face. Everyone else (Natsuhi, battler, George and Jessica) all have perfect alibi in this case, unless Battler totally miss out on someone sneaking out, but that's really unlikely.
Can't wait actually to get my hands on EP5 (and hopefully EP6) after the anime season is over, just to see what sort of psychopath forced Maria sing in the scene of crime, assuming Maria is not the killer/accomplice. Maybe "Beatrice" just told her to turn away facing the wall and sing while the person does the deed, but that would be boring.

I am really concerned that they never show Kanon's death, not even the body. He could still be alive and well as we know it. Don't tell me they cremate the body like Kinzo straight after his death. maybe it's just a major blunder from the adaptation. Funny how he's always the first to the crime scene (including his own of course), and conveniently "died" to remove suspicion. Though I still believe that there's multiple killers, as both Kanon and George (always suspect the most insignificant person) are great emotional ties to Shannon.
Not sure if it'd been brought up before, but can we safely assume the person/people who transported the 6 bodies are actually the killers themselves? Maybe in the wildest possibility that someone doesn't want the bodies to be found for some strange reason, but someone else just decided to paint the massive magic circles.
speaking of which, they haven't brought up the letter/blood circle for the latest twilight. And I am also interested to see how "no one will survive".

Karlson

2009-07-23, 19:35

Yeah I can't wait till the next episode already because well...I don't know what to assume anymore since there's no god damn way in hell anyone outside of Maria could've killed Nanjo, Kumasawa, and Genji unless Battler's theory is true or Kanon is still miraculously alive and it's him doing it. And the way that last letter showed up still leaves me doubts it's Beatrice doing all of this. Couldn't have come from her unless she was there all along.

Klashikari

2009-07-23, 19:50

Karlson

2009-07-23, 20:34

Then, I shall ask this:
Can you confirm there isn't any 19th person (no witch mind you)?

Something was odd, but here is a definite fact: Battler, Jessica, George, Maria, Natsuhi, Genji and Nanjo were together when Kanon and Kumasawa were going to the kitchen/boiler room.
At this point, there was a door slam.

Thus, only an external person or a person that faked their death could do it.

Witch or no witch I can't disprove the idea of a 19th person on the island after this episode. If there is a 19th person than the most likely possiblity who that might be would be those with ties to the family that we (the first time viewers) havn't been formally introduced to yet. Maybe Maria's father? Possibly...I can't remember but he was pronounced to be missing (not dead) right?

Klashikari

2009-07-23, 20:40

From the vn, there isn't much information either.
The only thing that is certain: his whereabouts are unknown, and it seems he abandonned Rosa and Maria (that subject is taboo in the Ushiromiya family).

Also, according to Jessica, it seems Maria was a dead weight for her mother. Rosa wanted to have remarriage, but Maria's presence is an obstacle to this.

Bureiku

2009-07-23, 21:21

um can i add that i dont beilieve those are really butterflies i think it is just gold dust swirling around

White Manju Bun

2009-07-23, 21:29

Thus, only an external person or a person that faked their death could do it.

Im thinking someone faked their death. When Battler brought up the idea that one of the first six was the killer, I had thought of that before.

I'm also wondering why Kanon's body wasnt shown but really if he's dead why drag the body back to where everyone else is :heh:

Ssol

2009-07-23, 21:33

um can i add that i dont beilieve those are really butterflies i think it is just gold dust swirling around

I assume you're talking about the scene when Kanon is in the boiler room. It could be dust but where is it coming from?

plzd0ntkeelme

2009-07-23, 22:42

I still wouldn't decide on 19th person yet, at least based on this ep. The killer was able to place a letter in front of at least 2 grown-ups (one or more of them could be the killer). Which means the killer(s) were supposed to be in the same room.

And after Eva and Hideyoshi's faces were left "intact", Genji, Nanjo, and Kumasawa's are removed. As Battler said, the face mutilation could well be a cover-up for a fake corpse. Which means whoever has died so far, one or more of them could still be alive.

Karlson

2009-07-23, 22:43

Im thinking someone faked their death. When Battler brought up the idea that one of the first six was the killer, I had thought of that before.

I'm also wondering why Kanon's body wasnt shown but really if he's dead why drag the body back to where everyone else is :heh:

Yeah there really wouldn't be much of a point to that. I'm pretty sure the last thing they need to see is another corpse after the previous twilights and I think they'll take Jessica in that state as proof enough he's dead.

We did have some theories that came to existence based off the possiblity of one of the original 6 sacrifices of the first twilight being the killer and faking his/her death too but they were just thrown to the side as there were other theories that were more likely to be the case. But after this episode, these theories based on that assumption are pretty much all we have left to go by as far as predicting the killer and we still don't know if it's even just one killer. 2 faking their deaths and working together isn't exactly out of the question either :eyespin:

Ithekro

2009-07-23, 22:48

So.

We have nine people with their faces removed (or partly removed)
One burned to a crisp.
And three staked but identifiable easily.

Also

Seven of these people were staked in some way with the stakes visable on the corpses. The first six did not have a visible weapon near them.

We have five people known to be alive. Only one of them was with the recent three corpses, but a nine year old shouldn't have the power to commit these murders...thus we have a problem. If none of the five killed these last three...who did? One of the ten people that may or may not be correctly identifed (or even not dead yet)...or someone else not identified previously. Or even Kanon, since the last time we saw him, he wasn't quite dead yet.

Avisch

2009-07-23, 23:26

The letter always confused me, I felt it would be really damn hard (but not un-doable) to put a letter on a table without anyone noticing. Thus I always thought "remote control device used to put letter on the table at the right moment", but we don't know if Kinzo's room is observable (or if observation was required).

Ithekro

2009-07-23, 23:38

Well, there are options.

One, the person that placed the letter there is still in the room and was there before the group arrived. (If this is the case, that person could not have murdered the servants)

Two, there is a second way into the study that is hidden, and thus someone could get in and out of the room...but how to do so without anyone noticing...since it was right in front of the servants.

Three, the letter was there before, but no one noticed, being to focused on other things...including the can of mackrel.

Four, there is someone hiding under the table. Of course if that was the case Maria would see them easily from her point of view. But on the other hand she's the one that pointed out the letter. She also wasn't saying anything productive to divert suspicion from herself.

Goilveig

2009-07-24, 01:13

k//eternal

2009-07-24, 02:16

In the VN, it isn't even mentioned what song it is.

`When we listened carefully, .........we could hear it faintly.`@` ......Maria's eerie singing voice.`\
`She wasn't singing naturally, as though she were in a good mood.`\
`.........She was singing mechanically, like she was at a graduation ceremony and she'd been ordered to.`\
`...The song she was singing was just a common folk song, one that everyone has probably sung in school at one time or another.`@

MeoTwister5

2009-07-24, 02:26

In the VN, it isn't even mentioned what song it is.

That's kind of the reason why I'm wondering why they chose such a song for the episode. Gonna do research later. lol

k//eternal

2009-07-24, 02:38

That's kind of the reason why I'm wondering why they chose such a song for the episode. Gonna do research later. lol

Well, probably because as mentioned it fits the vague description (of being a "common folk song") given in the VN, with the added benefit of involving butterflies.

Ah, just to let you know that song about rapeseed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapeseed) is a very well known children rhyme in Japan. Also rapeseed is most likely a mistake.

jeroz

2009-07-24, 02:41

let's see the identification for the bodies.
Krauss and Shannon = half face mutilated = pretty much confirmed their identity
Rudolf, Kyrie, Godha, Rosa = full face mutilation = possible for a switch
Eva and Hideyoshi = Stake on the head = identity confirmed
Kinzo = six toes, charred, and the stake = ambiguous, as some other family member might also have six toes.
Kanon = (well, Nanjo and Jessica "see him pass away")

Genji, Kumasawa, Nanjo = full face mutilation, but both Nanjo and Kumasawa's body size are unable for a switch, unless Nanjo is not fat to begin with. For genji it's still possible, but can we confirm that the site where the body is found is where the killing take place? How long has it been between the order of exile and the phone call?

If the culprit has the masterkey, then locking the crime scenes doesn't help much as he/she can still carry the bodies around.

tcaz2

2009-07-24, 03:28

How long has it been between the order of exile and the phone call?

A little bit over an hour and a half.

Unknown Soldier

2009-07-24, 03:59

Just to throw that out there:

Battler tossed Maria the medallion. Maria grinned. Everyone except her died.

If you are following the Beatrice exists path, as I am, it makes perfect sense that she is alive and the others died.

Klashikari

2009-07-24, 04:53

I'm also wondering why Kanon's body wasnt shown but really if he's dead why drag the body back to where everyone else is :heh:
Kanon didn't die instantly. The thing is that Nanjo had to move him first in a more "proper" room, as leaving Kanon in the boiler room dramatically increases the chance of a sceptic shock occuring.
But before that, he has to stop the hemorrhage with bandage first.

Kanon was still alive but quickly lost consciousness. His hemorrhage was first temporarily treated, then Nanjo, George and probably some other people transported Kanon to the servant's room as there is a first aid kit and a sink. But even though Nanjo was trying his best, Kanon succumbed shortly after (Nanjo was trying for like 30 minutes IIRC).
Problem is that they show Nanjo with absolutely no blood stain.

risingstar3110

2009-07-24, 12:20

Dark Angel Suigintou

2009-07-24, 13:40

I'm really thinking one of the six who died had planned this, I'm suspecting Kyrie and/or Battler's father their faces were smashed in which meant it could have been someone else, and not them. They taught Battler to flip the board or whatever, taking that into account they could easily read into the situations of the survivors and anticipate their moves with ease. Hence why it was so easy for the killer to split up the group. I'm thinking to kill the three and leave Maria alive and clueless, someone must have turned off the lights and picked them off quickly. Not only that with Nanjo dead the rest can't tell the time of death of the bodies so I'm thinking someone had killed one of the servants assumed their identity and then placed the body in with the two fresh corpses. I'm assuming the killer took Genji's identity.

Unknown Soldier

2009-07-24, 13:42

What I want to know is, who turned the phones back on?

Kitsu

2009-07-24, 13:48

Finally someone remembers the not working phones~

But what if Genji and kanon lied about the not working phones and they worked the whole time

Alaya

2009-07-24, 13:55

Just watched the Ep and yeah....

.....i'm kind of speechless....

The scene and information must be more accurate in the game. But thank to the anime show schedule (once a week) that i can have this feeling of putting up walls of speculations and then see the ep messing all my theories up......

..... this feeling is just too FANTASTIC to describe...
......I think i'm on high right now.....

This means you are getting into Umineko, congratulation.

Ryuukishi really toys with us. He killed the most suspicions person one by one until there were none (for us to suspect). But making theory is fun and watching it getting crushed is also fun too.

So please make a lot of speculations and theories, we would like to see how you guys think.

Dark Angel Suigintou

2009-07-24, 13:56

I remember the phones I'm still wrapping my head around it.....if Kannon lied about the phones why was he also killed I can only think he was either screwing around which I highly doubt or he would be in cahoots with the killer(s) Maybe Genji was dead longer then we think?

Mint Kashiro

2009-07-24, 15:58

Kanon didn't die instantly. The thing is that Nanjo had to move him first in a more "proper" room, as leaving Kanon in the boiler room dramatically increases the chance of a sceptic shock occuring.
But before that, he has to stop the hemorrhage with bandage first.

Kanon was still alive but quickly lost consciousness. His hemorrhage was first temporarily treated, then Nanjo, George and probably some other people transported Kanon to the servant's room as there is a first aid kit and a sink. But even though Nanjo was trying his best, Kanon succumbed shortly after (Nanjo was trying for like 30 minutes IIRC).
Problem is that they show Nanjo with absolutely no blood stain.

He probably changed his clothes. It's unsanitary to walk around wearing other people's blood.

Unknown Soldier

2009-07-24, 16:01

Finally someone remembers the not working phones~

But what if Genji and kanon lied about the not working phones and they worked the whole time

Natsuhi tried to use them, they didn't work back in episode 2.

Ithekro

2009-07-24, 16:08

Better quetsion..why would Kanon lie about the phones at all? We see him, alone, trying to use the phone, saying it doesn't work. To whom is he lying to? Himself? The audiance? The likelihood is that he isn't lying to anybody.

Genji is the one that tells Natsuhi that the phones are out. So when the phone rings, they assume Genji fixed them. When this happens is unknown. If this happens is also unknown. Only that at one point Kanon couldn't use the phone and later (roughly 17 hours later) at least one phone connection works in the house.

Tamad

2009-07-24, 21:33

I don't think anyone was lying about the phones being out of service. We don't exactly know what the four were doing when they were banished from the study (were they together or separated?), so for all we know, Genji could have used that time to do something productive and got killed right afterward.

There's something that's been bothering me, and that's about Kinzo himself. Why would the killer go through all the trouble of giving Kinzo's corpse special treatment by burning it? The only reason they would do that is if they would want the body to be unrecognizable, but the polydactyly kind of gave it away anyways. The killer could have possibly not known about Kinzo's toes, but what if it was Kinzo himself burning a fake body? It wouldn't have been that hard to place six toes on each foot to fool people into thinking that the corpse belonged to Kinzo, but being a completely charred body would mean that it's all just assumption. Thinking he's dead would be the perfect "alibi" for Kinzo to move around freely and murder. Thanks to the recent episode, we've learned that Kinzo would do anything to revive Beatrice, so that gives motive for Kinzo to follow the epitaph for sacrificial purposes. Kinzo would also be quite knowledgeable about magic circles, so that would explain all the circles being drawn around the place. He would also be familiar with his own mansion, so he could utilize some secret door in Eva and Hideyoshi's room. It just seems weird that out of all the bodies the killer has tried to hide the identity of (smashing faces etc.), he decided to go the extra mile with Kinzo's body...

Though it kind of contradicts with Maria's meeting with Beatrice in the first episode. We all know that the Beatrice Maria met in the rose garden can't be real, and we know that Kinzo can't exactly dress up like Beatrice (bad mental images), so who exactly was that? Perhaps one of the eighteen is still quite alive and/or there is a nineteenth person on the island.

MeoTwister5

2009-07-24, 21:40

Ithekro

2009-07-24, 22:42

Well...with a burnt corpse is it hard to indentify how it died...or even when it died I would guess. Not to mention who it is. We can assume it is Kinzo because of Genji's identifying the body via the sixth toes. We know it started burning around the time they discovered Eva and her husband's corpses because that was when Maria and the others started to smell it (eww, burning man flesh and hair). But we don't know when he died, or if even the stake in his head is what killed him.

jeroz

2009-07-25, 00:43

technically speaking you can still use the dental record, but then again in higurashi showed that it can also be altered.

Ithekro

2009-07-25, 00:48

You could, but not on in the field. The police might be able to identify the bodies later, if those records exist, and if the evidence isn't too damaged. It just means that the survivors can't identify a body that way at all.

Karlson

2009-07-25, 01:25

Ok I'm just gonna backtrack to the point before this whole string of murders started here since this theory was touched upon by Battler and it reamins to be one of the few theories left for me to believe...

Our 6 victims of the first twilight. We have one who for some strange reason knew more than he should have with the first twilight coming in Rudolf. Then you have Krauss' with that gold bar scene not to mention his wife is still alive. And as far as I know Ghoda and Rosa have a nice lead as far as a motive is concerned given they sit at the bottom among the inheritance list for the servants and direct family members respectively. However I think the one I'm turning my suspicion to now out of the bunch is Shannon.

Have I gone crazy? Maybe...it's an out there assumption, but lets remember that George (the man who proposed to her) is still alive currently. And if anyone would've tampered with the phone lines it would have to be the killer and I can't imagine anyone but the servants (outside of Kinzo and maybe Krauss) knowing how to tamper with that. And just thinking back to Shannon's decision to go to the mansion when that wasn't her duty in the first place...we as the viewers see a different reason for why she went there and has given us the impression that her death was a case of "wrong place at the wrong time". But is it? That very well could be a cover-up for the real reason she went to mansion instead. In my brain it all seems to be falling into place. Plus I still find it strange that Beatrice was following her for a fair bit of time (at least 5 minutes before midnight). Out of everyone that has died Shannon seemed to be the one I pitied the most. All the signs seem to point the suspicion away from her for various reasons, so I guess right now I'm assuming the most unexpected and surprising result at this point :eyespin:

cicero

2009-07-25, 02:01

So if we assume no body switches, then those four are the only four left alive? Hmm. Then body switch or 19th person would seem like the only nonsupernatural explanation. I can't think of any sort of automatic trap that one could set up which would kill three people in different places, wreck their faces, stab them in appropriate body parts, fix the phone lines, and convince a kid to call and start singing some creepy song.
Of course the evidence points everywhere, which is probably some of the intention of this show/game. Kinzo has the (insane) motives and would have had ample time to plan/write the letters/set up traps etc. Maria seems seriously disturbed and it wouldn't be unbelievable that she would try to do it...but without magic, she would need help to pull it off. I'm not even going to to sort it out.
Also, the twilights are sure flying by fast. We've already finished the eight. Only two left.
One of the things I tend to do before a show is browse the va list. I've noticed that there's a person listed as doing the voice for "Beatrice." Really seems like it pushes the supernatural explanation, but there are other explanations.

MeoTwister5

2009-07-25, 02:03

I'd like to point out that having Beatrice as a character does not automatically mean there is a witch up and about. She could easily be just a human Beatrice or someone else pretending to be a witch.

Unknown Soldier

2009-07-25, 02:14

Way back on page 1 I predicted that the last survivors before the end would be Battler, George, Jessica, Maria, and Natsuhi. And, well, looks like I was right. I deserve a cookie. ;)

risingstar3110

2009-07-25, 02:27

Let's "turn the chess board over".... :D

This is only Episode 1 of the game, right? ....and we still have at least 3 more Episodes before we have enough chess pieces to speculate everything. So instead trying to plot out the culprit, i will try to make some sense with gave-out clues and try to connect it later as we exposed with more materials.....?
As stater, i think it would be wise to suspect that Ryuukishi hided all important clues by diverging our train of thoughts into bigger events

So what could be important but "seems" to be shadowed in the whole Episode 1?
- Maria's rose ("Maria no bara" xD). Its disappearance is importance, and i don't think the whole screens just to build up to let Maria meet Beatrice and deliver her letter. Was the handkerchief and the rose important, or was that spot in the garden was so important that someone have to put their hand into such harmless rose?

- Kinzo's ring and Beatrice's letter: Beatrice should be able to get his ring easily if she has an incorporate body as everyone believed she is. But why he have to throw it out the window, and then a short while later, Beatrice (if it was her) can pick up and make a letter with it? The most significant thing the ring can do is creating that seal for the letter, so if there are more than one ring, and there are two different senders with different motives, then it would make sense

- magic circles and hand prints on Natsuhi's door: we immediately assume the culprit draw these when he/she kills someone to revive or point the finger to Beatrice (or Beatrice used it to kill someone)..... But since we are so sure about that, it's likely that it is not true.
We always suspect either someone inside the house or Beatrice killed everyone. But it's possible to have a third party here. What if there are more than one killer with different motives, and the magic circle(by culprit or by Ryuukishi) to make us audience have the feelings that there is only one culprit?.

- killing method: why everyone was killed by certain manner? Was it just to a)gross out the audience b)make all of us suspect that some1 still alive c)suspect that there is only1 culprit?

Ithekro

2009-07-25, 02:46

risingstar3110

2009-07-25, 04:25

Does anyone find it odd that of all the cast, the doctor didn't get introduced like everyone else in the first episode? Every family member and servant got an introduction shot...but the doctor didn't.
Has Kinzo been introduced as well? If not then maybe because these two appear on-screen before the whole introduction started

Ithekro

2009-07-25, 04:26

Kinzo got an introduction when they tried to get him to come down to dinner.

Karlson

2009-07-25, 04:41

Does anyone find it odd that of all the cast, the doctor didn't get introduced like everyone else in the first episode? Every family member and servant got an introduction shot...but the doctor didn't.

Yeah I found that strange too but I didn't really pay it much mind. Probably just another inconsistency by DEEN much akin to Shannon's tears :heh:

And yes Kinzo did get introduced. Happens right after Krauss' introduction and right before Genji's

Jan-Poo

2009-07-25, 07:19

Way back on page 1 I predicted that the last survivors before the end would be Battler, George, Jessica, Maria, and Natsuhi. And, well, looks like I was right. I deserve a cookie. ;)

Ah, it was you? You've been mentioned in the anime speculation thread for VN readers, "wow this one got it right!" ha ha.

MeoTwister5

2009-07-25, 07:23

I'm actually curious what led him to believe it was so, on my first VN run I predicted George to die.:eyespin:

maximilianjenus

2009-07-25, 10:17

I would rather not talk about my VN predictions as I predicted characters that show much later to show in the mansion before people starts dying.

Also, I hope deen does a kinzo dressed as beatrice theory scene, that would be the only way to top kinzo hiding under the bed.

Unknown Soldier

2009-07-25, 17:38

Ah, it was you? You've been mentioned in the anime speculation thread for VN readers, "wow this one got it right!" ha ha.

Having not read the VN, I haven't been in that thread at all for fear of spoilers. But that's pretty awesome nonetheless. :cool:

I'm actually curious what led him to believe it was so, on my first VN run I predicted George to die.:eyespin:

If you go and read my post on the first page of this thread, I explained my reasoning for my prediction pretty thoroughly. Of course everything I speculate is based on the fact that I think Beatrice is real and she's the one going around killing people. Also, I think that Maria is a witch. I'm just throwing that out there because I'm feeling like I'm pretty awesome right now. :heh:

D3monicWolv3s

2009-07-25, 17:41

Also, I hope deen does a kinzo dressed as beatrice theory scene, that would be the only way to top kinzo hiding under the bed.

The bearded Beatrice. :heh:

k//eternal

2009-07-25, 17:45

Kinzo: BEARD-ORICHEEEEEEEE

Tamad

2009-07-25, 18:54

You know, if it's not Kinzo who's getting my blame, then I can't say Natsuhi is all that clear of suspicion either. It may have just been the strain and pressure of the situation, but I found the way Natsuhi handled the problem in the study really odd. She sent the servants and Maria out of the study under the assumption that one of them is the killer or they're all accomplices, but if I were in her shoes... that would have been the last thing I would have wanted to do. Not only would you be putting the servants and Maria in danger, but you're pretty much leaving a potential killer unsupervised. If I have a gun, I would feel a lot safer keeping my eye on the suspects (three elderly people and a child too mind you, I doubt they would be able to do much even if they ganged up) rather than let the potential killer roam free around the mansion. It would have been safer to tie them up or something and keep your eye on them until dawn, but instead she let the killer roam free. The only reason I can see her doing that is because she wanted to throw the suspicion onto the servants and Maria, while in turn making her look like the good guy. All of her motive involving the money and Kinzo could still be there, hell there could even be a motive we don't know of yet, but this theory would of course require an accomplice. However, I'm still not sure if that accomplice is one of the eighteen or an outside party...

Ok I'm just gonna backtrack to the point before this whole string of murders started here since this theory was touched upon by Battler and it reamins to be one of the few theories left for me to believe...

Our 6 victims of the first twilight. We have one who for some strange reason knew more than he should have with the first twilight coming in Rudolf. Then you have Krauss' with that gold bar scene not to mention his wife is still alive. And as far as I know Ghoda and Rosa have a nice lead as far as a motive is concerned given they sit at the bottom among the inheritance list for the servants and direct family members respectively. However I think the one I'm turning my suspicion to now out of the bunch is Shannon.

Have I gone crazy? Maybe...it's an out there assumption, but lets remember that George (the man who proposed to her) is still alive currently. And if anyone would've tampered with the phone lines it would have to be the killer and I can't imagine anyone but the servants (outside of Kinzo and maybe Krauss) knowing how to tamper with that. And just thinking back to Shannon's decision to go to the mansion when that wasn't her duty in the first place...we as the viewers see a different reason for why she went there and has given us the impression that her death was a case of "wrong place at the wrong time". But is it? That very well could be a cover-up for the real reason she went to mansion instead. In my brain it all seems to be falling into place. Plus I still find it strange that Beatrice was following her for a fair bit of time (at least 5 minutes before midnight). Out of everyone that has died Shannon seemed to be the one I pitied the most. All the signs seem to point the suspicion away from her for various reasons, so I guess right now I'm assuming the most unexpected and surprising result at this point :eyespin:

How would one explain her body in the shed then? Either everyone coincidentally misidentified that sixth corpse as Shannon, the real Shannon got a perfect replica body double, or everyone in the shed was lying to those outside. She's probably the one I would suspect the least, which in turn like you said could make her the best candidate for the killer... I'm just not seeing any motive or reasoning though, so maybe more light could be she upon it in the upcoming arcs.

Kinzo got an introduction when they tried to get him to come down to dinner.

Assuming it wasn't just a blunder on DEEN's part as Karlson then, then either Nanjo doesn't really exist (a ghost or a memory of some sort? If witches really do exist then this can't be too farfetched), or that isn't who everyone thinks he is. Nanjo does have an air of suspicion about him, but I've never really been able to put my finger on it.

The bearded Beatrice. :heh:

The sad thing is I can imagine Kinzo being obsessed with Beatrice enough to be one with Beatrice.

Ithekro

2009-07-25, 20:31

Well Natsuhi was questioned about her decision to send them all away. She admitted that if something happened, then she made a mistake. Perhaps the meaning of the episode title "Blunder".

Interesting thing is...if the docter doesn't exist...then why is everyone seeing him? Or it it just Battler seeing him incorrectly? This does bring up an interesting question. So we don't know if there is a 19th person on the island...what if there isn't, but one or two of the 18 we "see" isn't who we think they are? Then it gets sort of spooky.

I assume everyone has a motive (probably even Battler). The servents might only be following orders. Those with the golden wing are suppose to be loyal in the extreme to Kinzo. The question then comes, who else has a motive? We can't answer that because we've not met anyone that isn't these 18 people, so or list of suspects is small. Is there anyone that can be completely ruled out in this instance?

Probably the only two I've write off as innocent of the later murders is Eva and her husband. I can't write them off completely for the First Twilight...but after that they are quite dead. They could have commited the first crime and were then killed so that no one would find out who killed the first six (first rule of assassination...kill the assassin).

Kanon was alive the last time we saw him, though unless Jessica is in on the plot, he is likely dead. He also sounded rather defiant at the end. He might have been in on it, but then decided it wasn't worth it, or perhaps he wanted to set his own course for once. We don't know who he was actually talking to...he might not either. Only that he suddenly has a stake in his chest. We saw no hand put it there even on the cut back to "non-golden butterfly vision". So this suggests it was either thrown or fired/launched out of something to impale him....or his stabbed himself somehow to make it look like he was murdered....

Mirakuru

2009-07-26, 02:25

Wow... each episode is just leaving me with more questions. XD One of the original six murdered faking his/her death and being the actual culprit makes sense, but... who would that person have used as his/her replacement? There were 18 people introduced, and so far we know for sure that at least 5 people are still alive, while at least 13 people have been murdered... and this adds up to 18. Whether somebody has a body double or whatnot, there has to be a 19th (or maybe a 20th as well... or even more =P) person on the island for this theory to be correct. And the way everything is playing out, it seems almost impossible for an outsider to not exist. I'm not saying that Beatrice, or a witch, is committing the murders, but maybe one of the 18 'confirmed' people is cooperating with somebody else/others?

And I also find it interesting that Maria was the only one of the four whom Natsuhi forced out of Kinzo's study to still be alive. The fact that she was facing the wall and singing a song (plus the phone was dangling from its receiver... I don't think she made the call) makes it seem like the culprit wanted to protect her from witnessing the crimes first-hand. There's also the deal with the scorpion charm Battler gave Maria before she left, but I'm still 'anti-fantasy' and I think a human is behind the murders. =P

By the way, the preview for next episode seems quite ominous. T_T I have a feeling that the remaining survivors will be killed off, following the epitaph's words. I'm still wondering how somebody can reach the Golden Land if nobody can survive in the end, but... at this point I've really gotten to like all of the remaining characters and I'd be pretty sad if any of them died next episode. =[

Narokath

2009-07-26, 09:53

I'm actually curious what led him to believe it was so, on my first VN run I predicted George to die.:eyespin:
Hehe, I haven't played the VN but I actually predicted Eva and Hideyoshi to die on the second night purely because it made the most sense as "those who are close" in the Epitaph. I interpretted it as a kind of 3rd party in a relationship, so it made sense for it to be George as the killer or mastermind.

A lot of the theories in this thread have been suggested in the anime too by Battler :D

Personally, I can't outrule anyone. The only person who comes close to being taken from spotlight is Kanon, don't even know if he actually died. Even the dead are potential masterminds. It's possible that the entirety of the servants are in on this epitaph, and they told Maria to turn around and sing while they killed themselves in the way suggested by the writing.

If this is how you bring forth Beatrice, she might appear next episode; But I doubt this is the answer to the epitaph.

kagato3

2009-07-26, 11:12

Well given the whole unbrella bit with Maria, Beatrice can only be Kinzo, a 19th person, or someone is a very good actor.

Kinzo's death seems a bit odd. First why burn the body? This doesn't seem to help any one after the inheritance since it would only delay it. It also doesn't seem to be a stealthy way of getting rid of it either as the burning smell would be sure to draw people to it it would be much easyer to either dump it in the sea or take it out to the middle of nowhere to dump it. Also why would the killer stay around that long? the body would have had to have been burniing for a while for people to have smelled it through out the house. Intresting we don't see Genji between when he sends Kanon out and when they discovered his body.

The stakes aren't the murder weapon for the last 3. none of those wounds were likely to have killed them in the time it took to get there. I'm guessing that what killed them is either what damaged their face or what that damage was used to cover up. Could someone be killing with a rifle filled with buckshot?

Deathkillz

2009-07-26, 11:29

Maria will happily lap up anything to do with the occult so even if it was an actor who gave her the umbrella and tells her to say it is from Beatrice, she will stubbornly go ahead with it.

The whole point of burning Kinzo's body was so that it would be discovered by the remaining survivors. Same reason why the culprit painted the magic circle on the shed gate to gain attention. Genji was with the family the whole time so the anime screwed up on his alibi.

And I believe that the last 3 were killed via the head before being stabbed with the stakes to make it seem like the epitaph is still being followed (surely it wouldn't be a quick enough death if someone was stabbed in the ankles).

Karlson

2009-07-26, 14:50

How would one explain her body in the shed then? Either everyone coincidentally misidentified that sixth corpse as Shannon, the real Shannon got a perfect replica body double, or everyone in the shed was lying to those outside. She's probably the one I would suspect the least, which in turn like you said could make her the best candidate for the killer... I'm just not seeing any motive or reasoning though, so maybe more light could be she upon it in the upcoming arcs.

I do agree the problem with suspecting Shannon is we lack a known motive without making one up so that's a huge problem. Some rather subtle things do indicate it could be her but without the motive it's just pure speculation and nothing more, still it was something interesting that came up in my mind.

Kitsu

2009-07-26, 14:54

I do agree the problem with suspecting Shannon is we lack a known motive without making one up so that's a huge problem.

well, you guys...she could have a motive.
Did you forget her relationship with George? now think about a rich family which is very strict and now imagine a lowly servant girl marrying into said family. Do you guys think said family would allow that?

Karlson

2009-07-26, 17:31

well, you guys...she could have a motive.
Did you forget her relationship with George? now think about a rich family which is very strict and now imagine a lowly servant girl marrying into said family. Do you guys think said family would allow that?

Common sense would say no, but the anime didn't really portray such rejection outside of the beginning of episode 3 which was subtle to the point of me only just realizing it now.

Well that further strengthens my original PoV, now the only question left is if it's her why did Kanon die then? I'm pretty sure those 2 aren't blood-related but they do seem to look up to eachother as siblings (especially considering Kanon's reaction to her death). I thought about this for awhile and realized something strange with his death compared to the other victims; the other deaths felt staged and well planned out throughly, whereas with Kanon it felt more abrupt (since he was still alive when he was discovered). I wonder if that is a sign that his death was not actually intended to happen but only happened cause he tried to get in the way. If this were in fact true that would further strengthen my suspicions of Shannon.

Btw I might be mistaking when the third twilight happened in this episode but is the third twilight that whole part with epitaph right before the last letter shows up? If so does anyone find it strange how the fourth and fifth twilight happen before the third twilight?

Kitsu

2009-07-26, 17:36

The third twilight is the letter found in the door of Hideyoshi and Eva. It's contains are "Praise my name on high"
I don't know if that was mentioned in the anime but the letter was there.

Karlson

2009-07-26, 17:59

That was indeed what was read in the letter. It just didn't seem like the characters actually praise her name on high as the epitaph describes there.

jeroz

2009-07-26, 18:48

It's possible that the entirety of the servants are in on this epitaph, and they told Maria to turn around and sing while they killed themselves in the way suggested by the writing.

if that's the case, how does the last person screw up his/her own face? by the way the body are positioned, it's a bit on the unlikely side for them to perform facial mutilation simultaneously. (though it would be quite hilarious to see)

kagato3

2009-07-27, 07:03

Ok thoughts on the first 4 anime Eps.
- the storm when we see Kinzo seems much more severe then the one the happens when the others are on screen. It seems to match the storm in the prolog leading me to think that some of it did not happen at the time it was shown but earlyer.
-Theroy the person who gave Maria the letter is not the killer. The letter is calling the group out to solve the riddle to stop "her". If the witch is real following through with the riddle means that she loses so there is no gain there. If the killer is trying to get the rest to find the gold for him killing so many of the siblings seems counter productive as the children are less likely to figure it out. the killer seems to be following through the riddle literaly pointing to someone who is either not too bright or is a beliver in the ocult.

- Theroy 2 the hand prints were made by Shanon. Shanon had a run in with the killer as he was comeing back from painting the shed and was gong after Natsuhi but found Shanon who shouldn't have been there. The hand prints are do to her strugleing trying to get way from her killer.

- the bleeped out parts of Maria's line "it's just the ___ Chosen by the ___" is a huge clue to solveing the over all story. (could it be it's just the sacrifices Chosen by the key?)

- Eva and Hideyoshi are most likely the first twilight killers.

- the circle was drawn on the door by a true beliver trying to open it after the murder(Genji?)

- Kanon and all(?) the servents are true belivers in the witch,

- the final killer almost has to be an unkown 19th person unless as in the first higurishi acr the veiwers are being mislead.

Jan-Poo

2009-07-27, 07:36

That was indeed what was read in the letter. It just didn't seem like the characters actually praise her name on high as the epitaph describes there.

Elaborate further:

1) The killer is following the epitaph
2) At the third twilight the remaining(s) are supposed to "praise the name"
3) The killer left a letter that invited the "remainings" to "praise my name" just after the second twilight, and right before the fourth twilight
4) But the letter wasn't read on the spot, that happened much later, after the fifth twilight.

There are a few things that aren't right in all this.

maximilianjenus

2009-07-27, 11:12

the fun thing is that if something is changed we can assume it does not matter as ryukishi is supervising this.

I do agree the problem with suspecting Shannon is we lack a known motive without making one up so that's a huge problem. Some rather subtle things do indicate it could be her but without the motive it's just pure speculation and nothing more, still it was something interesting that came up in my mind.

As mentioned by oishii in the higurashi tips, do not care about the motive, for the motive only has to be good enough for the criminal, so in the case of shanon, you might think that killing all the family to stay with george is not a motive enough, but maybe it is for her. Also the notion of 20 billion yens of gold kind of gives anybody a motive.

Karlson

2009-07-27, 14:13

Elaborate further:

1) The killer is following the epitaph
2) At the third twilight the remaining(s) are supposed to "praise the name"
3) The killer left a letter that invited the "remainings" to "praise my name" just after the second twilight, and right before the fourth twilight
4) But the letter wasn't read on the spot, that happened much later, after the fifth twilight.

There are a few things that aren't right in all this.

Yeah the letter did show up right after the second twilight so the intent of having the third happened right on cue was there but it wasn't read until after the 5th twilight. That 4th step is exactly what threw me off with the order. Interestingly enough the stuff with the epitaph shortly follows after that particular letter is read and it lead me to the impression that all that was supposed to be the third twilight.

rogerpepitone

2009-07-27, 14:47

maximilianjenus

2009-07-27, 15:06

but what if both are so close that they said " we will kill anyone who oposses out love, even our families". That explain kanon and eva's death, (oh , and what's his name but nobody cares about him anyway).

Nih

2009-07-27, 15:13

Have to agree with rogerpepitone here. Shannon seems like the type of person who would refuse to kill George's family precisely because she loves him so much. Unless in later episodes we discover that she has a secret crazy side, her killing anyone just seems out of character.

Ithekro

2009-07-27, 15:20

Unless she's just following orders. She is "furnature" after all.

orion

2009-07-27, 17:54

Kinzo could also be the murderer. If the motive is to "revive" Beatrice, then that is his ultimate goal. He could have brought the relatives there to sacrifice them in order to revive his dead girlfriend. Being familiar with witchcraft, he prob would have a knowledge of herbals and poisons.

His body was burned and the only confirmation was polydactyly (his 6 toes). Perhaps he used his access to those kids mentioned in episode 1-4 to find someone with 6 toes and about his height. He then killed that person beforehand and burned him to fake his death.

He should also have some knowlege about the inner workings of his household like fuses and phone connections. He would also have access to spare keys. He was also missing during the first and second round of deaths.

Also, I think that Maria put the letter on the table in episode 1-4. She was the one to point it out and prob the servants have written her off and weren't really paying attention to what she was doing.

Karlson

2009-07-27, 18:24

Is her relationship with George really a motive for Shannon? It's arguably a reason for her to kill Eva, and maybe Hideyoshi, but anyone else (especially Gohda)? Hasn't George made it clear that he loves Shannon and will marry her, regardless of what anyone else thinks? Isn't killing his family more likely to turn George away from her?

Nothing indicates that George is the killer, but nothing disproves that he's the one giving orders to the killer either (which in this theory, it's Shannon). The thought of two people working together hasn't been disproven yet and it's not a crazy assumption that the one pulling the strings behind the scenes could be among the least suspected. After all this series thus far has done a really nice job of keeping that suspicion away from George since all these killings seem to happen with him at completely different locations that would make it really hard for him personally to commit. It would also make sense since the grandchildren have been unharmed all the way to the ninth twilight who George has been present with pretty much the entire time since this all started happening.

True given his outburst reaction to his parents' death we are lead to believe that yes, Shannon doing these killings would drive George away but sometimes things may not be as they seem. As it has been stated before there isn't just the family disapproval of this relationship there's the 20 billion yen that anyone can obtain by solving the riddle which puts everyone in suspicion

rogerpepitone

2009-07-27, 20:20

I was addressing the specific case of sole motive being Shannon's relationship with George. Motivewise, I don't have a problem with anybody (except Maria) killing everyone over the money.

Jan-Poo

2009-07-27, 20:54

orion

2009-07-28, 12:18

Only Maria?

I think Kinzo can be excluded as well, why would he kill people to get his own money?

I could exclude at least three more people, but that's more toward a personal opinion than a logic evidence.

Because he's deluded and killing people to revive a dead girlfriend.

Solving the riddle stops the killing and gets the solver the money. But there's no assurances that the money is even on the island. We've only seen 1 bar of gold which I don't remember as being tested to validate its existence.

There is suppose to be a marking on the gold bar (http://www.gold.org/assets/file/pr_archive/html/bars/Types.htm) ideally of the issuer. Plus the weight on the bar at 9:32 in ep. 2 is suspicious.

Klashikari

2009-07-28, 12:21

orion

2009-07-28, 13:00

That doesn't work that way.
As kanon explained, a miracle is magic. However, they forgot to mention that Kinzo made the ceremony in order to create a miracle, since he has a greater chance to die (13 among 18 will die, thus he only has 28% chance to survive).
But this is because of this madness that will bring him the miracle, and so magic against all odds.

If the gold isn't on the island, there is 0% chance to solve the riddle. Therefore, there shouldn't be any chance for Kinzo to lose.
Therefore, it is unlikely the gold isn't on the island, or it goes against to Kinzo's idea of magic. Both risks (being killed or having the gold being disclosed) are part of the miracle Kinzo wants to bet to create magic.

The guy is deluded. The seal has to be broken in a specific order and that's why the sacrifices are done in a specific order. If he is the one doing the sacrifices, then he has the highest chance of surviving.

His wish is for the revival and even the epitaph doesn't state that the gold is on the island. It could be the key for access to the location and location for the gold in a bank in another country is on the island.

The gold bar that was shown is suspicious in itself. Wrong weight. Issuer's markings not shown so far.

So he dangles a carrot to bring the sacrifices to the island and slaughters them in order knowing that there is not a high prob of them solving the riddle.

Klashikari

2009-07-28, 13:12

The guy is deluded. The seal has to be broken in a specific order and that's why the sacrifices are done in a specific order. If he is the one doing the sacrifices, then he has the highest chance of surviving. Doing it itself in such fashion the witch has done it is contradictory: that means he knows Beatrice doesn't exist. Thus, it makes no sense.

His wish is for the revival and even the epitaph doesn't state that the gold is on the island. It could be the key for access to the location and location for the gold in a bank in another country is on the island.
The letter stated the cache of the gold can be located with the epitaph. Thus, if the gold cannot be retrieved during the 2 days lockout, it is a 0% chance.

The gold bar that was shown is suspicious in itself. Wrong weight. Issuer's markings not shown so far.

The gold bar was retrieved by Krauss after a thorough investigation, which was taken by a business president.
Wrong weight? how so?
And the legend of Kinzo's gold was always stated that the gold ingot never had a bank carved mark on, which is why he had to make a business president to check an ingot at random to gain their trust.
So he dangles a carrot to bring the sacrifices to the island and slaughters them in order knowing that there is not a high prob of them solving the riddle. That's not true, because the epitaph was always laughed at by the siblings after they were unable to solve it. Thus, it has nothing to do with them being reunited on Rokkenjim on 4th october 1986.
And again, without any probability to lose, it goes against to Kinzo's madness.

Jan-Poo

2009-07-28, 13:41

Let me clarify this: I've never said that Kinzo is beyond suspicion at this point of the story, what I said is that Kinzo is not interested in money, not at the point of killing all of his family for that. In other words if Kinzo is the mastermind the motivation in his case can't be money.

For once, he's disgustingly rich already
According to Nanjo he's got only 3 months left to live
Even in the case Nanjo is lying, Kinzo became the head of the family in 1923, he wouldn't have much to live either way.

You can speculate he's doing it for madness, to revive the witch, or for any other reason, but money is practically impossible.

About the ingot. You got quite a good clue about the fact it is definitely odd. But that's the very reason Krauss thinks it's authentic. Say it was your regular ingot, with the name of the issuer and everything, it wouldn't prove anything. You could say Kinzo bought an ingot somewhere. But Kinzo says it is the gold of the witch, unrelated to any bank and any kind of human regulation. The fact that the gold bar isn't following such rules is consistent with the theory of a witch.

The gold bar is definitely pure gold. Krauss made it analyze, and there's no reason for him to lie to Natsuhi. If he went all the trouble to make a fake ingot, he would have used somehow, but he's keeping it as a secret.
However that doesn't mean the ten tons of gold exist. Kinzo was rich enough to have created the ingot himself for the purpose of backing his claims, or maybe he actually used it to trick the banks into lending him money.

Anyway what Klash said is also true. Whether the ten tons of gold exist or not, if Kinzo said that by solving the riddle you could become the next head, that's definitely true. The "gold" could be something else, but that's irrelevant for the purpose of the riddle.

maximilianjenus

2009-07-28, 15:24

But you can't trick a bank witha single gold ingot, it's like I show you a 100 dollar bill and tell you "I have 10,000,000 of those in my home", on the other hand, if I show you the ones I have at home, you will doubt that they are real, so you will take one or more bills at random and get them to the bank to check if they are real. One antifantasy theory is that kinzo did the exact same thing, except that he gambled on the bank owner getting the only real ingot between all the fake ones.

Jan-Poo

2009-07-28, 16:17

1 ingot is 10 kg, 1 ton is 1000 kg. So there are 1000 ingots. A chance over one thousand, and actually the probability is a lot higher since you'd only pick an ingot on the surface.

rogerpepitone

2009-07-28, 16:18

He didn't necessarily gamble on it; he could have used a trick to exchange the ingot the manager chose with a real one.

jeroz

2009-07-30, 04:11

MeoTwister5

2009-07-30, 04:22

I am not too sure if i'd remembered it correctly, is it true that in the VN that Kinzo never turned his back to Natsuhi last time she sees him (alive)? I know in the anime he turned his head, but apparently that's not the case in the VN. can the players correct me on this matter?
It's just that I still can't believe fully the phrases "Kinzo" said to her, just seem to be something to gain her trust, make her feel euphoric so she wouldn't be highly alert.

Just checking if that's true or not.

The game seems to suggest that he never faces Natsuhi when she talks to him.

Also at this point it may be necessary for us to start explaining the paranormal scenes near the end of the episode. I'll wait until Klashikari says yes before I say anything.

Unknown Soldier

2009-07-30, 04:58

Things I was right about:
- Beatrice exists
- Beatrice is a witch
- Beatrice can kill people over and over again (apparently by exploding their faces?)
- Beatrice has the power to resurrect the dead (maybe? or maybe it's the million incarnations of Furude Rika who is reincarnating them, so Beatrice can kill them again?)
- the scorpion medallions can protect you from magic, at least until the final resurrection

I'm not sure if I'm supposed to gloat or not that I was right that Beatrice exists and is a witch, since apparently Battler is going to be the Magic Phoenix Wright and prove everything Beatrice did could have been done by humans, and by doing so prove she doesn't exist, therefore causing her to cease to exist. Or something. It's like Ryukishi07 was reading The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy and really liked the side-story in that book about how Man proved God didn't exist by not believing in him. Also the million reincarnations of Furude Rika are going to help Battler win his battle against Beatrice because the million reincarnations are able to bring about miracles, such as breaking the bounds of June 1983, turning Michael Jackson black again, and also resurrecting him from death. By doing this, she was able to bore some Great Ultimate Witch to death and now she's going to try and bore Beatrice to death too. I guess boredom really can be fatal in Umineko's world. Also, the worlds of Umineko and Higurashi are apparently linked together, or rather, the final shard of worlds that Rika is reborn into and survives past the end of June 1983 in is also Umineko's world. Yeah, something like that.

I think I have a headache now. Also, I'm going to quit making predictions now, since I wouldn't want to ruin my record at this point. ;) Ah, who am I kidding, I'll keep predicting things until they are all so wrong that nobody even remembers how I lucked out at the beginning with a string of correct ones!!

MeoTwister5

2009-07-30, 05:34

risingstar3110

2009-07-30, 07:06

I think I have a headache now. Also, I'm going to quit making predictions now, since I wouldn't want to ruin my record at this point. ;) Ah, who am I kidding, I'll keep predicting things until they are all so wrong that nobody even remembers how I lucked out at the beginning with a string of correct ones!!
Was you the one who predicted the 5 who survived in the end? :D

But yeah, keeps up the speculating, because out of the 5 you listed just in that post; i got 3 of them. The other two, up to ep I-V, there still no facts to support if they are right or not (in fact i believe they are wrong or not entirely true).....

Jan-Poo

2009-07-30, 07:15

It's like Ryukishi07 was reading The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

I'm not sure if he read it, but he definitely knows about it. I wonder if that will become apparent in the anime as well.

The game seems to suggest that he never faces Natsuhi when she talks to him.

That's correct, that's how the whole scene is described.

Klashikari

2009-07-30, 07:24

Actually, Kinzo was first having his back facing her. However, the game doesn't state if he keeps having this stance.
And one specific line confirms Kinzo didn't stay like this all the time:
"Kinzo once again faced away from her"
Instead of "was still facing away from her", it is rather "once again". Therefore, he is taking again his previous pose.
That means Kinzo was facing/looking at Natsuhi at some point.

And only after that, the game uses:
"Without saying anything more, Kinzo remained with his back to Natsuhi"

MeoTwister5

2009-07-30, 07:31

Yeah but the rest of the text points that when Kinzo actually said what he said to Natsuhi he was already facing away from her.

The mere fact of Kinzo not facing Natsuhi when he spoke to her may or may not be an important point, but I guess we shall see.

risingstar3110

2009-07-30, 08:19

After Ep I-V, here is my new speculation:
- There would be more than 18 people in the island (19 perhaps) in the future episodes, or 18 but not the same 18 people in Episode I.
- Ep II would be about another parallel world (obviously). Later episode would also show that there are parallel world previous to Ep I, but Battler was not there .
- Everyone who survived after 12 o'clock in the last day in previous world would have higher chance to have some memories left (include those that were revived).
- However, there are only three to four people who have all memories (or part of the memories) that can contribute into how things will be, there of them are: Battler, Maria and the mastermind behind all these. The fourth one may exist or not, is one of the culprit behind the event, and may or may not work with the mastermind. Among the four(or three) only Battler is the newbie in this "memory transferring" experience.
- Battler will start to appear in every parallel world since Ep II onward due to his stubborn ability of previous world remind him to get back and find out the culprit behind all mystery

- There is only one or two people Beatrice directly killed.

jeroz

2009-07-30, 10:58

my theory, there's a huge flock of sheep on the island, and they are pissed off.
There's no 19th person, but a huge number of infected sheep roaming free on the island, which explains the gruesome death the people suffered from. lol

just checked the tip again
apparently the four "survivors" had a more terrible way to die than the rest, especially when a piece of jaw is the only recognisable body part. Poor kid. The character portrait also conveys the horror quite well. God knows what kind of death they face in their final moments.

but i still don't know why it's the name of Maria that signed off the letter. She seems to be the least likely person to seek the truth. Chuckle quietly myself during the letter in the bottle scene because that just reminded me of the K1 letter from first arc of higurashi so much. Though I would be interested to know if Maria already throw out the bottle during the beach picnic on the first afternoon while no one is paying attention to her.

(Heard from a friend that the following 3 EP will be more awesome, can't wait to see it being animated. )
BTW, does Bernkastel still write those poems like she did in Higurashi?

Klashikari

2009-07-30, 11:04

White Manju Bun

2009-07-30, 11:15

Ok Im confused :heh: As much as I want to believe Battler and that this was done by humans when youre face to face with a witch its hard not to believe she's really behind it. Espc since it seems odd like Natsuhi would commit suicide and everyone saw the butterflies. I did say a few posts ago that if this was done by a witch the locked door scenario goes right out the window :heh:

It isn't a mere coincidence: the way how it was written in Maria's letter is exactly how it was in keiichi's.

I thought that letter sounded eerily famililar.

risingstar3110

2009-07-30, 11:18

It isn't a mere coincidence: the way how it was written in Maria's letter is exactly how it was in keiichi's.

And no, Bernkastel didn't. There is no confirmation is Frederica = Bernkastel. They do share a name, but that doesn't mean they are the same.
I think the biggest problem with identifying the witches is... their identity is so hard to define..... (even human identity is hard to define in certain degree). So yeah i agree it's best to leave Bern is Bern, Frederica is Frederica

Cause in some certain POV, we actually can say Bernkastel is Frederica, which is also Rika. Because there are more than 1 Rika, so it's possibly Frederica also not a single identity and can't be identify with human identity. Then Bernkastel the witch, created by the mixtures of Rika, Frederica, Hanyuu....etc..... So we could end up: Rika is just a lower form of Frederica which is a lower form of Berkastel....or something like that......

It's too complex.... now i don't want to think too deep about it... -_-'

Trogdor Jube

2009-07-30, 11:44

After reading through the TIPS for episodes 1-5, I have officially have a headache that no amount of Tylenol can fix.

The TIPS mention that the weapons that Eva, Hideyoshi. Kanon, Genji, Kinzo, Kumasawa and Nanjo were supposedly killed with are called 7 stakes, all which are named after demons and sins in the Roman Catholic bible (Lucifer, Beelzebub, Satan). After doing some research I decided to look up more info on all 7 of these names, some were quite interesting, for example, Kinzo was stabbed with the stake of Mammon, Mammon is used to describe wealth and greed, Kinzo was indeed wealthy and perhaps you could say that his desire to be with Beatrice no matter what is greed, therefore he was stabbed with the corresponding stake.

However there are bits that confuse me such as the fact that Eva was stabbed with the stake of Asmodeus, Asmodeus is the demon of lust and from what I have seen of Eva, I don't know WHY she was stabbed with that one, unless of course the names are simply there for show, or it was a human who killed her and didn't really care which stake it was (unlikely).

I'm not sure if Beelzebub was associated with pride or gluttony, either way, I don't see why Hideyoshi was stabbed with that one, unless of course we find out something about him later.

Satan doesn't represent a deadly sin but since he is the fallen angel who started the war in heaven I would guess his corresponding sin would be......wrath? Or perhaps Pride would be more fitting, I dunno. Actually, now that I think about it, Satan defied God and challenged him in his own kingdom which in turn started the war in heaven causing Satan to thrown down to Earth. Kanon defied Beatrice and challenged so he was stabbed with the corresponding stake and was killed so I guess wrath would fit him. Of course, I can't go assuming that the killer is trying to to stab people with the corresponding stake, after all Eva and Hideyoshi being stabbed with Beelzebub and Asmodeus doesn't seem to correspond with them personally, unless I'm missing something.

I always thought that Lucifer and Satan were the same thing so I'm a tad bit baffled by Genji being stabbed with the Lucifer one.

From Wikipedia
In demonology, Belphegor (or Beelphegor) is a demon who helps people to make discoveries. He seduces people by suggesting to them ingenious inventions that will make them rich. According to some 16th century demonologists, his power is stronger in April. Bishop and witch-hunter Peter Binsfeld believed that Belphegor tempts by means of laziness

Belphegor probably represents sloth, but Nanjo? Lazy? Odd.

Leviathan is a sea demon, once again, I'm baffled by this one.

I am severely confused with the whole Stakes thing. You could say a human did it, but why would they stab 2 people with stakes that don't fit them and stab the rest with stakes that DO fit them (this of course is assuming that my deductions are right). Same goes for the witch, why the inconsistency?

TIPS also say that they the stakes only kill people who had committed one of the 7 deadly sins and not people who have not or have a high resistance to magic (Battler, and perhaps someone else?), what if 2 people committed the same sin? Would that throw off the game?

From the TIPS
They follow the commands of the practitioner, and are driven with perfect accuracy into the desired part of the desired person hunted.
Because they fly at ultra-high speeds and change their ballistics freely by rebounding off of walls and the like, they have no blind spots, and even if the body is hidden by any kind of shelter, they can be made to unfailingly reach their target.
Furthermore, it is possible to control their force depending on the hit location.

This would explain the death's of Eva Hideyoshi and Kanon and Genji, but what about Nanjo and Kumasawa? They were stabbed in leg and knee, most people don't really die from getting stabbed there so could I assume that they were stabbed but then a human finished the job by smashing their faces? Could it have been Genji? Perhaps all he wanted to do was to resurrect the witch and so after killing Nanjo and Kumasawa killed hi- nope never mind, then his face would not have been smashed. DAMN EVERYTHING!

Something I would like to address is this line from the epitaph.
At the second twilight, those who remain shall tear apart the two who are close.
The who were close were Evan and Hideyoshi but it says that those who remain will do it? I can't really think of anything logical at this point regarding line though.

Also, nothing is really specified but did they ever actually see the bullet that "killed" Natsuhi?

At this point I no longer have any idea if this is to a human killing or supernatural, or both.

Klashikari

2009-07-30, 11:51

However there are bits that confuse me such as the fact that Eva was stabbed with the stake of Asmodeus, Asmodeus is the demon of lust and from what I have seen of Eva, I don't know WHY she was stabbed with that one, unless of course the names are simply there for show, or it was a human who killed her and didn't really care which stake it was (unlikely).
For your instance, before being killed, Hideyoshi and Eva had a sort of romantic mood about what they will do once they get out of there. Hideyoshi suggested the maldives, just the two of them. Eva didn't want to wait and wants to go "now", and kiss hideyoshi (with an obvious implication of what was going next).I'm not sure if Beelzebub was associated with pride or gluttony, either way, I don't see why Hideyoshi was stabbed with that one, unless of course we find out something about him later.Gluttony. For the record, Hideyoshi is the owner of a chain of fast food restaurants.Satan doesn't represent a deadly sin but since he is the fallen angel who started the war in heaven I would guess his corresponding sin would be......wrath?
Actually, if you don't take Satan's christian origin, he is indeed the demon of wrath.I always thought that Lucifer and Satan were the same thing so I'm a tad bit baffled by Genji being stabbed with the Lucifer one. Lucifer is considered as a complete different demon, in demonology. Using christianity isn't always a good idea at times.Leviathan is a sea demon, once again, I'm baffled by this one.Envy.This would explain the death's of Eva Hideyoshi and Kanon and Genji, but what about Nanjo and Kumasawa? They were stabbed in leg and knee, most people don't really die from getting stabbed there so could I assume that they were stabbed but then a human finished the job by smashing their faces?Remember the exact line: On the Xth twilight, gouge the X and kill.

nagare

2009-07-30, 12:45

For those confused by the anime at this point...

Episode I's goal is to introduce the game.
Welcome to the game. Now go read Ryukishi 07's ultimatum translated by the Witch-Hunt here (http://www.witch-hunt.com/hist.html).

Also if you're wonder where the names of the stakes come from:

Binsfeld's classification of demons

Binsfeld's classification of demons was prepared in 1589 by Peter Binsfeld. His demon classification based on the seven deadly sins, establishing that each one of the mentioned demons tempted people by means of one of those sins.

* Lucifer: pride
* Mammon: greed
* Asmodeus: lust
* Leviathan: envy
* Beelzebub: gluttony
* Satan/Amon: wrath
* Belphegor: sloth

Unknown Soldier

2009-07-30, 13:32

Since we're talking about the historical use of demons in mythology (before Christianity came along and co-opted everything into it's epistemology), it's interesting to note that Beelzebub was more commonly spelled Baalzebub or Baal-zebub. Baal is a catch-all name for a number of different demons, though today he is largely famous for being Diablo's brother and the Lord of Destruction.

If you've played the Persona games you're used to seeing Lucifer, Beelzebub, and Satan as separate demons. Because until Christianity came along, they all were different and separate demons and they weren't even part of the same European mythologies, as Christianity spread across Europe, these demons were all gathered together and eventually all came to represent different aspects of God's final biblical opponent, the fallen angel who came to rule over Inferno (Hell).

As for Bernkastel, she's intentionally a crossover character from Higurashi, whether you think she's the same Bernkastel and that the worlds of Higurashi and Umineko are connected because of her, I think Ryukishi07 has left it open to your own interpretation. I think it would be cooler if it was the same Bernkastel, as some pretty serious hints are dropped she is the same, being the witch who brings about miracles is a pretty heavy-handed reference to the events of June 1983 in Higurashi's world.

Jan-Poo

2009-07-30, 13:38

Uhm... as far as i know Lucifer is a latin name and it comes from a misinterpretation of the bible from roman catholics. There was not such a thing as a Lucifer demon or god before that.

The Binsfeld classification is a free interpretation of an already messed up christian demonology based on various mythological figures.

Unknown Soldier

2009-07-30, 13:45

This is Wikipedia's entry on Lucifer:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer

I'm not sure what to make of it myself. But it looks like you're right, the name Lucifer did not come about until after Christianity.

Ithekro

2009-07-30, 13:51

Consider the likely source of said stakes is Kinzo and based on Maria's knowledge, there ideas of demonology and witchcraft seem heavily Christan based in its roots and terms. If the seals are being based on passages from the Old Testament and the names of the stakes from a 1500s guide to demons...then there are places to gain more information. The name "Beatrice" could also be a clue in such a search.

velvet

2009-07-30, 19:58

Espc since it seems odd like Natsuhi would commit suicide and everyone saw the butterflies.

Just a thought. I remembered something I read a long time ago (Curtain to be exact).
I think if Natsuhi did commit suicide with her gun, the location of the hole in her head caused by the gun is quite strange. It's more usual for people to shot their temple instead shooting their forehead.

On second thought though it could be because the rifle(?) or the gun had long barrel...
A little nitpick, a suicide will almost 100% left a burn in the wound location (because it's done in point blank range), can't see to well in the anime.

Now if it wasn't suicide, the gunshot is done by someone else. And that someone else is not killing her with witch-like actions (lol guns) :heh:

@trogdor jube
GJ with the stakes. Now I'm curious how they all connected with the murder :heh:

sora1412

2009-07-30, 20:14

Paranoia833

2009-07-31, 21:31

If you've played the Persona games you're used to seeing Lucifer, Beelzebub, and Satan as separate demons. Because until Christianity came along, they all were different and separate demons and they weren't even part of the same European mythologies, as Christianity spread across Europe, these demons were all gathered together and eventually all came to represent different aspects of God's final biblical opponent, the fallen angel who came to rule over Inferno (Hell).

Well most contemporary Christians regard Lucifer and Satan as the same entity, but yeah there's a pretty strong argument that this wasn't always the case even in Christian history. (The first person on the internet I talked to who argued they were originally different figures claimed to be a devout Catholic with a theology degree)

Consider the likely source of said stakes is Kinzo and based on Maria's knowledge, there ideas of demonology and witchcraft seem heavily Christan based in its roots and terms. If the seals are being based on passages from the Old Testament and the names of the stakes from a 1500s guide to demons...then there are places to gain more information. The name "Beatrice" could also be a clue in such a search.

99% certain Beatrice is a reference to Dante. Though I also heard someone on the somethingawful forums say it could also be a reference to an Agatha Christie character, which would be funny and also appropriate.

Anyway, there's still loads of room to present a rational explanation for the problem as posed: 19th person, someone faking there deaths (I'd favour Rosa if that was the case, as Maria's mother she'd be best at manipulating the silly little girl, assuming her inability as a parent was just an act) or multiple people participating in the murders (I still have a theory that Shannon and George did the original muders, then someone killed Shannon and George killed his parents assuming they offed her so she wouldn't marry George, but that leaves the other murders unaccounted for and needs someone else in on the deal to write the sigil, assuming there's no tricks with invisible ink or the like... possibly Kanon if it was indeed revenge for Shannon?)

There's not really enough evidence to solve it conclusively at this stage, but there's more than enough to make a plausible theory without involving magic.

Paranoia833

2009-07-31, 21:36

Natsushi would not have killed herself due to the nature of the gun. Like what velvet mentioned, it would be a lot easier to aim other places of the head than directly shooting oneself at the forehead. This would suggest that the killer actually have a gun with a silencer if you consider the theory that the faces were destroyed to conceal the murder weapon.

Doesn't even need a silencer. I doubt the Japanese main characters would know enough about guns to be able to distinguish between the sound of the shotgun or any other type of gun, and it's not like we saw them examine the shotgun to check if it had been fired or where the bullet went.

How many shots would that gun have in it anyway? (Brit here, guns might as well be magic wands for all I know of them.) I mean Battler fired off two shots without reloading the thing, could that be a giveaway the gun wasn't fired by Natsuhi?

TheForsaken

2009-07-31, 21:41

According to the TIP, the number of rounds is 4+1 shots.
Can someone explain what 4+1 means, is that ... 5 ? :heh:

milkypink

2009-07-31, 21:52

According to the TIP, the number of rounds is 4+1 shots.
Can someone explain what 4+1 means, is that ... 5 ? :heh:

I assume it's written that way to mean "1 cartridge loaded (i.e. ready to shoot) and 4 in the gun that can be loaded after the first is shot"
*knows little about guns so terminology is weak :heh:*

Ithekro

2009-07-31, 21:56

Typical lever action rifle would have between four and thirteen bullet in the magazine (the tube under the barrel) depending on the length of the magazine and the length of the bullets. Since this rifle is sawed off (short barrel), It has four bullets in the magazine and can carry one more in the firing chamber....so five shots before it needs to be reloaded.

However we do see Battler use the weapon correctly. The hammer must be pulled back before it can fire, or the lever action must be used to put another bullet into the firing chamber (which also pushes the hammer back).
Natsuhi didn't seem to have pulled the hammer back before the gunshot.
Battler doesn't use the lever action to eject an empty casing before he fires the first time.
Battler pulls the hammer back before firing the first time.
Battler uses the lever action to eject the spent casing before firing a second time. (we can see the shell casing fly out and can hear it hit the floor)
He does not need to pull the hammer back before the second shot because the lever action does that for him.

This suggests to me that Natsuhi didn't fire her gun. If she had fired, there would be an empty casing in the firing chamber that Battler would need to eject before he could fire the gun. Battler is able to pull the hammer back and fire without using the lever action means that there is a live bullet in the firing chamber. If Natsuhi had fired, there shouldn't be a live round in there. There should not have been time for Natsuhi to use the lever action between the time the shot was fired and the time she is seen falling to the floor dead. Besides, if she had, the hammer would have already been pushed back.

Assuming everything was animated correctly...there is no way Natsuhi fired that gun.

Unless the part with Battler using the gun is a lie.

Jan-Poo

2009-07-31, 22:00

It means 1 bullet must be loaded in the firing chamber before you can insert the fifth one. That's what 4+1 means. It's an old model gun and the lever must be pulled in order to manually discharge the spent bullet and charge the next one in the firing chamber.
If you pay attention to the animation, Battler pulls the lever after firing the first shot. In that short time you can see the spent bullet being ejected.

EDIT: Tch I'm slow.

Anyway since Itherko said that much. In the novel Battler pulls the lever from the beginning and a bullet is ejected. So in other words, while the anime after further analysis would make you think the gun didn't fire, in the novel everything points to the opposite. This is quite a conundrum because the fact that Battler ejected the bullet doesn't necessarily mean that the bullet was spent. So in a few words it is impossible to determine if Natsuhi fired or not. We only know that the anime would make you think she didn't and the novel would make you think she did. Quite a mystery in the mystery.

Trogdor Jube

2009-08-01, 19:16

Just a question to any VN players but, now that the anime has gone through Episode 1 of the VN, do I need to play the VN to discover any interesting bits that may help with the mystery?

hodil

2009-08-01, 19:44

I personally feel that the anime was adapted correctly and accurately for most parts.

The early half of the VN simply focus on background relationships, such as George and Shannon. Including an elaborate chapter on Kinzo's background. While the other half is what that was concentrated in the anime, the murders and stuff.

Therefore, if you are interested, you could read the VN to learn more about them, some pieces of info may help.

For example.
Im not sure if this is a spoiler, but it was stated that Eva knows martial arts the very first chapter you played the game. So during her death, it should be cleary noted that Eva had the ability to fight.

Klashikari

2009-08-01, 19:47

Most fine details were indeed kept, but additional information and the like do not hurt at all: to the contrary, it can change the balance of thought, in a positive way.

At worst, it gives even more good reason to know the characters and empathize them, in their plight and so forth.

Jan-Poo

2009-08-01, 19:47

I think Klashikari has created the TIPS thread for that purpose. There are probably some minor hints that the anime cannot cover because of time issues, however I believe the most important ones will be left. The problem is we can't be exactly sure about which elements are important and which aren't. Obviously the TIPS since are labeled like that, are important and that's why they are available even though no one know how how exactly they should help.

There will be another thread that will be made in due time to give more hints that the anime might not be cover completely.

In the end I think everything important will be summarized for anime viewers and manga readers to read as a compendium in this forum. However right now there is a limit of what it is right to reveal, there is the possibility that some facts will be told in the anime on later episodes, and therefore telling them now (even if at this point a novel reader would know them) could be a spoiler for the anime and manga audience.
When the anime will end, I think there could be more interactions, but right now I suggest you simply watch the anime and have fun speculating and making theories, because this show is meant to be enjoyed this way. Well you can play the VN if you want, why not XD, but you can be sure efforts will be made to cover important aspects that will be missed, however right now it's better to say less than too much,